1



### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5


### Public Hearing on the 6



### Proposed Clean Power Plans for 7


### Existing Power Plants 8

9

10

11



### 9 :0 2 a.m. to 8 : 01 p.m. 12



### Wednes day, July 30 , 201 4 13

14

15



### ROOM B 16



### EPA REGION 8 BUILDING 17



### 1595 Wynkoop Street 18



### Denver, Colorado 80202 19

20

21

22

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### EPA Panel A: 1



### EL AYANA SUTIN 2

3



### LAURA FERRIS 4

5


### DENISE MULHOLLAND, Office of Atmospheric 6


### Programs, Washington, D.C. 7

8



### EPA Panel B: 9



### SCOTT JACKSON 10



### ABBY FULTON 11



### ANGELA GIAZ 12

13



### EPA Panel C: 14



### ELAYANA SUTIN 15



### NATE McMICHAEL, Office of Air and Radiation 16


### Programs, Washington, D.C. 17



### COLIN BO SWELL, Office of Air and Radiation, North 18



### Carolina 19

20

21

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### C O N T E N T S 1



### PAGE 2



### Session A 3



### JOHN ATKERSON, Nebraska Wildlife Federation 18 4



### MARGARET ROGERS , Colorado resident 22 5



### BRAD LEWIS , Westmoreland Energy Services 25 6



### VIVIAN WINESTEIN , Colorado resident 2 9 7



### JOSHUA ZIE , ERCC Counsel 3 6 8



### DUSTY ROSE , Local Union 1984, Price Utah 42 9



### DAVID ALLENBERGER , National Wildlife Fed. 45 10



### LAWRENCE OLIVER , Peabody Western Coal 51 11



### JEN FILIAULT , Boston, Massachusetts 54 12



### JEFF WODSWORTH , Puter Valley REA 5 9 13



### MIKE KOPP , Intermountain Rural Elec Asso. 64 14



### KENT SINGER , Executive Director, CREA 6 9 15



### RYAN SHININGER , Amango Solar 74 16



### STEVE STEVENS , Colorado resident 77 17



### SEAN GALLEG OS , Boilermakers Local 101 81 18



### SONNY KELLY , Colorado resident 86 19



### JACK IHLE , Xcel Energy 91 20



### MICHAEL HIATT , Earth Justice 96 21



### LUSTA SCEINS, Conservation Coalition 100 22

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### C O N T E N T S ( continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### SESSION A (continued) 3



### SIMON M O STAFA , Colorado resident 10 6 4



### MARK O U RADA , Central Region ACCCE 112 5



### MICHELLE FREEAR K, AEPCO 116 6



### JO S E PH FROSS , IBB Local 101 122 7



### ABBY KREBSBACH, Montana Dakota Utili ties Co. 125 8



### PERCEY DEAL , Colorado Resident 131 9



### LIZ LITERAL , Colorado Resident 136 10



### DOUG GRANDT , Lincoln, Nebraska Resident 1 38 11



### BRENTON DOLF , Colorado Resident 1 4 3 12



### GEORGE WILSON , IBEW Local 111, Denver, CO 147 13



### KATY RAITZ , Colorado Resident 152 14



### MATTHEW APPELBAUM, Mayor of Boulder, CO 156 15



### KATY R EYNOLDS , Colorado Resident 160 16



### ELLEN PLANE , Colorado Resident 164 17



### KAITLYN SEEL E Y , Colorado Resident 168 18



### M ATT REED , Colorado Resident 171 19



### JOE RUPP , Colorado Resident 172 20



### ALEXANDRA SCHLERETH , Colorado Resident 174 21



### KATRINA RILEY, Colorado Resident 175 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### SESSION B (continued) 3



### BI LL BEARDSLEY

- SCHOONMAKER , Colorado Resident 177 4



### SCOTT ALBERTSON , Boilermakers Local 133, MO 179 5



### SCOTT JACKSON, EPA Staff 18 4 6



### TERRY CARWILE , Mayor of Craig, Colorado 1 91 7



### COLLEEN COOLEY , Colorado Resident 1 95 8



### CAROL STREAMER , Bould er County Beekeepers 201 9



### DAVID ELLENBERGER, National Wildlife Fed. 206 10



### DAVE CHA D WICK , Montana Wildlife Federation 210 11



### JEFF DELANEY, Colorado Resident 216 12



### KAREN SJOBE RG , Citizens for Clean Air 220 13



### PATRICK DEMMER , Community C hurch 224 14



### FANNIE EDDY , American Association of Blacks 227 15



### In Energy 16



### BRADEN MIGUEL , Colorado Resident 229 17



### DWAYNE RICHARDS , Western Fuel Association 232 18



### MARK FARNSWORTH , Highline Electric Asso. 238 19



### CLEO BREEZE , Colorad o Black Women for 244 20



### Political Action 21



### JIM LUODDLE, Sierra Club 247 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### SESSION B (continued) 3



### MICHAEL BRONNER, Plant Nursery Owner 252 4



### ED WINGFIELD, Colorado Black Chamber 255 5



### DY ERS, Renewable Energy Consultant 257 6



### ROSEMARY LYTLE , NAACP 260 7



### MAYA WHEELER , Black Women/Political Action 264 8



### RUE MAPP , Outdoor Afro 266 9



### ROBERT BOWEN , Writer for Green Energy 271 10



### MICHAEL HOLTZ , Colorado Resident 276 11



### JEFF DAYETT , Union of Concerned Scientists 281 12



### NANCY STALKER , Denver Audubon 287 13



### TOM HUNT , Clean Energy Collective 292 14



### KAREN GADOS , Sunshare 297 15



### ALICIA MIERS , Alliance of Nurses/Healthy Env 301 16



### CARL HANSEL , Colorado Resident 304 17


### LAUREN POOLE, Energy Efficiency Business Coal.306 18



### YANA KUCHER , Colorado Resident 308 19



### KAY PARKER , Colorado Resident 309 20



### KAI Abelkis, Colorad o Resident 312 21



### ROBERT PARKER , Colorado Resident 314 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### SESSION B (continued) 3



### MARSHA ELDRIDGE, Colorado Resident 318 4



### SAMANTHA AK A WEI , Green For All 320 5



### CATHERINE COX BLA I R , Natural Resource Defense 324 6



### Council 7



### SESSION C 8



### CHARLOTTE BROMLEY , Colorado Resident 335 9



### SARAH BROMLEY, Colorado Resident 339 10



### ROBERTA MOONEY , 350 Colorado 341 11



### MICAH PARKIN , 350 Colorado 347 12



### JENNY D OUGLASS , Colorado Resident 352 13



### PETER BLAIR , Colorado Resident 352 14



### ANYA VANECEK , Colorado Resident 357 15



### ANNELI BERUBE , Colorado Resident 361 16



### JAYEES H A DUTTA , Gulf Restoration 363 17



### SCOTT HATFIEL D , Colorado Resident 369 18



### DON PARCHER , Colorado Resident 372 19



### ELISEBETH COHEN , Colorado Resident 376 20

21

22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### SESSION C ( continued) 3



### JENNY NOONAN, EPA STAFF 378 4



### SAM MASIAS, Colorado Resident 382 5


### MICHAEL SAUL, Center for Biological Diversity 386 6



### KIRK MILLS, Colorado Resident 391 7



### KARL FORD, Colorado Resident 394 8


### PETER SATOE, Ecojustice Ministries 398 9



### KIM STEPHENS, Envi ronmental Colorado 402 10


### KELLY DAVIS, Environmental Attorney 404 11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1


### MS. SUTIN: Good morning, everyone. 2


### Welcome, I think we're going to get started. 3


### My name is Elayana Sutin and I am the 4



### chair

-- one of the chairs of the public hearings 5


### that we're having today. Thank you for coming. 6


### On the panel with me is Denise 7


### Mulholland. She's from our Office of Atmospheric 8


### Programs in Washington. And then Kyle Olson who 9


### is from our Air Program here in Region 8. 10



### We are here today to listen to your 11



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 12


### pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 13



### of these proposed rules on June 2, 2014. 14



### Power plants are the largest source of 15


### carbon pollution in the United States, accou nting 16



### for roughly one

- third of all domestic greenhouse 17


### gas emissions. 18


### The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 19


### power plan for existing power plants. This 20


### proposal consists of two main parts, state

21


### specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 22

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### power plants and guidelines to help states 1


### develop their plans for meeting th ose goals. 2


### This proposal gives states flexibility in 3


### determining how to meet their goals. States will 4


### choose what goes into their plans that show how 5


### they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 6


### their goals by 2030. 7


### The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 8



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 9


### and reconstructed power plants. This rule will 10


### set emission limits for two groups of power 11


### plants, those that make physical or operatio nal 12


### changes that increase the plant's maximum 13


### achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 14



### that replace components to such an extent that 15



### the new components exceed 50 percent of the 16


### capital costs of an entirely new comparable 17


### facility. 18


### If you would like more detail on either 19



### of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 20


### available near the registration desk. 21


### Today's hearing is one of four public 22

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### hearings across the country this week on the two 1


### proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 2



### in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 3


### you for taking time out of your day today to join 4



### us and share your comments. 5


### We have a lot of people signed up to 6



### speak today and we want to hear from all of them. 7


### So before we get started I would like to go 8



### through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 9


### that will help make today's hearing run smoothly. 10


### First, please be sure you have checked in 11


### at the registration desk, even if you are not 12


### planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 13


### speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 14


### you're here, please step out to the registration 15



### desk and let the EPA staff there know that you've 16



### arrived. 17


### Second, if you are a speaker, you were 18


### given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 19



### or Room B. This is Room B. Are you in the right 20


### room? If not, this is a good time to switch. 21


### If you are not speaking this morning and 22

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### the room is getting crowded, we have two 1


### additional rooms set up where you can watch the 2


### hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 3



### desk will dir ect you to one of those rooms. 4


### All right. Here's how today's hearing 5


### will work. I will call speakers up in pairs, 6


### when your name is called, please come to the 7


### podium at the front of the room. When I call on 8



### y ou to speak, please state your name, and spe ll 9


### it for the court reporter. 10



### Your comments will be transcribed and 11



### included in the record of comments on the 12


### proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 13


### minutes to give comments. We have a light to 14


### help you know how much time you have left to 15



### speak. It 's right here. When the light turns 16



### from green to yellow, that means you have one 17


### minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 18


### signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 19


### flash red and beep when you have spoken for five 20



### minutes and it's time to st op. 21


### When you are finished speaking, please 22

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### remain at the podium until the person next to you 1


### has completed his or her testimony. 2


### We are here to listen to you today. 3



### However a panel member may ask you to clarif y 4



### your comments. 5


### I will then call up on t he next pair of 6



### speakers and so on. 7


### If you have brought a written copy of 8


### your testimony, please give that to the staff at 9


### the registration desk or you can leave it here at 10



### the front table with us. 11



### Because of the large number of people who 12


### have signed u p to speak today, and to be fair to 13


### everyone, we are going to have to strictly 14



### enforce this five

- minute limit. 15


### If you have additional comments you would 16


### like to make, you can submit them in writing. 17


### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 18



### much considera tion to comments we receive in 19


### writing as we do to the c omments we receive a t 20


### public hearings like this one. 21


### So if you have more than you would like 22

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### to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 1



### re view ed. 2


### There is still plenty of time to get 3



### written comments in and there are comment cards 4


### available at the registration desk. Comments 5


### must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 6


### put any written comments submitted today into the 7


### official docket for the proposed rule. 8


### Instructions for submitting writ ten comments in 9


### other ways are available at the materials table 10



### near the r egistration desk. 11


### We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 12


### tonight. We will take short breaks throughout 13


### the day as needed. If you have questions during 14



### the day, please see the staff a t the registration 15



### desk in the room behind you and someone will try 16



### and help you. 17


### Finally, I want to ask each of you to 18



### please be respectful of everyone who speaks 19


### today. We have people with a wide variety of 20



### views in the audience and we want to hear fr om 21


### all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 22

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### everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly, 1


### even applause can slow things down and we want to 2


### hear from everyone who is signed up to speak. In 3


### the spirit of good manners and good democracy, we 4



### ask th at everyone be respectful. 5



### We are here to listen to each other even 6


### those we disagree with. 7


### Thank you, again, for taking the time 8



### today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 9



### rule. We'll get started. Thanks. 10


### So, our acting ARA wants to give some 11



### in troductory remarks and we're just going to wait 12


### a minute for her to come and then we'll get 13



### started. 14



### (Pause.) 15


### MS. SUTIN: Okay. I would like to 16


### introduce Cally Vidadich. She has a few remarks 17



### for everyone before we get started. 18



### MS. VIDADICH: Good mo rning, my name is 19


### Cally Vidadich. I'm the acting assistant 20


### regional administrator here in Region 8 and I'm 21


### here to welcome you to the public hearing on the 22

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### Clean Power Plan Proposal. 1



### Before we put pen to paper on our clean 2


### power plan proposal we benefit ted from 3


### unprecedented outreach. We held 11 public 4


### listening sessions nationwide including one here 5


### in Denver. We heard from thousands of people 6



### through phone calls, e

- mails, meetings and more. 7


### What we heard helped shape the guiding 8


### principals of our pr oposal. We heard that 9


### flexibility is key. So we maximized choices 10



### states could make for themselves. We heard that 11


### states could cut pollution costs effectively by 12


### looking at the energy system as a whole, so we 13



### built that in. 14



### We heard that the power sec tor is 15


### interconnected and not bound by state lines. So 16


### we allowed states to work together or go it 17



### alone; whatever works best for them. 18


### The public comment period is incredibly 19



### valuable to us. Since June 2nd we've been laser 20



### focused on our second phase o f this engagement. 21


### We've met with 60 different groups in just the 22

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### first 25 days after our proposal. We've received 1



### more than 300,000 comments so far and expect many 2



### more. 3



### We want no stone unturned and no good 4


### idea off the table. That's why we're so exc ited 5


### to kick off this public hearing s across the 6



### country . The are four of them this week, one 7



### here in Denver, the other two in Washington, 8


### Atlanta, and Pittsburgh. 9



### We expect great feedback at these 10


### sessions. They're critical to an opportunity for 11



### peopl e to speak to the ir government directly. 12


### But let me also make clear any comment we receive 13



### b y October 16th, no matter how we get it will be 14



### equally accepted and analyzed. 15


### There are no special comments or special 16


### groups. We look at everything carefully a nd EPA 17


### does the work to shape that into a rule we can 18



### all be proud of. 19


### We know the purpose of this rule couldn't 20


### be more important. That's why we're putting so 21


### much importance on the process a n d comments we're 22

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### getting . They are going to help us get th is rule 1


### right. 2


### So I thank you all for your attention 3



### today, for the comments for those of you that are 4


### going to be providing comments. And for those of 5


### you that are listening here today, hopefully it's 6


### a great educational opportunity for you. 7



### Have a grea t day. 8



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Cally. 9



### SESSION A 10


### MS. SUTIN: All right. I'd like to call 11


### the first two speakers, John Atkerson and 12



### Margaret Rogers. 13


### And one quick note for the speakers. If 14


### you could be careful of the microphones on the 15


### podium. Those ar e for the court reporter, and if 16


### you touch them it's difficult for the court 17



### reporter to hear. Thank you. 18


### Mr. Atkerson, you can go first. 19


### MR. ATKERSON: Thank you. My name is 20


### John Atkerson. I represent Nebraska Wildlife 21



### Federation out of Lincoln, Neb raska. 22

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### I'm here to speak for many Nebraskans who 1


### are very concerned about the climate consequences 2


### of global warming. A couple of them sent letters 3


### with me for you. Nebraska Interfaith Power and 4


### Light which is very active in the faith community 5



### in Nebra ska, writes that "Climate change is the 6


### most pressing moral issue of our time." And on, 7


### and I'll be glad to leave you their letter. 8


### Guardians of the Good Life is a very 9


### grassroots group that is concerned about 10


### preserving the good life in Nebraska which means 11


### that they're very concerned about everything from 12


### the Keystone Xcel pipeline coming through the 13


### state and their destructive manner, and they say 14


### they support strong, robust rules to reign in 15


### greenhouse gas pollution and require those folks 16



### in that bu siness to do the business in a 17


### responsible manner. 18


### Cleaning up electricity generation and 19


### electrifying to the maximum degree, the transport 20


### sector, are important steps towards addressing 21


### the problem of the climate consequences of global 22

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### warming. 1



### W e rec ognize that the proposed rules are 2


### a first attempt to address the key issue of the 3


### greenhouse gas pollution of power plants and we 4



### support that. But we also urge you to act more 5


### boldly, more aggressively, and to insist on much 6


### bigger reductions in greenho use gas pollution. 7


### Instead of tailoring the rules to favor 8



### natural gas as a fuel, favor the cheapest power 9


### available, at least in Nebraska and that cheapest 10


### power is wind power, and help build the 11


### transmission that will take that power across the 12



### country wherever it's needed. 13


### Instead of favoring nuclear power, 14


### strongly promote energy efficiency and all manner 15


### of demand side management. Most importantly work 16


### with the RTOs and other regional organizations to 17


### make and implement a practical plan to transitio n 18


### to a 90 percent clean energy electric system. 19


### Encourage energy storage as Ontario has 20


### just done with a very good 34 megawatt storage 21


### project that's quite diverse. And I think we can 22

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### learn quite a bit from. 1


### It is urgent that we act rapidly rather 2



### than just temper the pace of greenhouse gas 3


### pollution, it is past time to set the date to 4


### eliminate the intentional production of 5



### greenhouse gases. Because the extremely extreme 6


### weather that destroys natural habitat for 7


### wildlife, destroys human houses as we sa w with 8



### super storm Sandy and other events. The new 9


### longer, more intense wildfire seasons destroy 10


### entire neighborhoods in the west and leave us 11


### with trail cam images of animals fleeing smoke 12



### and fire in absolute terror. 13



### We are all diminished when a stand of 14



### aspens that has persevered for thousands of years 15


### on the pine ridge is incinerated and its 16


### resilient root system is baked into oblivion as 17


### happened in 2012. 18


### Fishing trout streams is an iconic 19


### American pass time that we will lose by mid 20


### century in much of Nebraska because streams will 21



### probably just be too hot for the trout. 22

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### Already some of the migrating cranes that 1



### Nebraska is famous for are threatened at the 2


### southern end of their migratory path because the 3



### water is too hard

-- too hot

-- just too hot for 4



### their foot to flourish. 5



### Wildlife is threatened as is detailed in 6


### the recent risky business analysis the climate 7


### consequences of global warming also threaten our 8


### economy. No one and no one thing is immune from 9



### this threat. 10



### As you change these prop osed rules, pleas 11


### let this be your guide. It is past time to set 12


### the date to eliminate the intentional production 13


### of greenhouse gas pollution. 14



### Thank you. 15



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Atkerson. 16



### Ms. Rogers? 17


### MS. ROGERS: Thank you, and good morning. 18



### My name is Margaret Rogers and I'm from Boulder, 19



### Colorado. 20


### During the day my job is to educate 21


### people on making their homes more energy 22

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### efficient. In the evenings and weekends, my 1


### avocation is organic gardener and backyard 2


### beekeeper. So I hope to bring you two 3


### perspectives on things that are going on. 4


### So in my organic gardening group, we had 5



### a short burst of elation when we hear that the 6



### USDA had raised us to the next warmer zone 7


### because that meant we could grow things that we 8


### had never grown things

-- had never grown before. 9



### Unfortunately, that was tempered a couple of 10



### weeks later when we found out that the Japanese 11


### Beetles had arrived and we never had Japanese 12



### Beetles before. And unfortunately not only are 13


### they eating our roses, but our raspberries and 14



### other plants as well. 15


### Of course, along with them has come the 16


### Emerald Ash Borer, an insect that will destroy 17



### millions of trees in Colorado and most Colorado 18


### is the plains, the high plains. And so we don't 19



### have a lot of canopy. We've already had an 20



### attac k on our pines with the pine beetle and was 21



### happy

-- it just not getting as cold as it used 22

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### to in order to kill these insects so that's kind 1


### of one piece. 2


### The next thing that I would talk with you 3


### about is there will be people who don't believe 4



### that clima te disruption is human caused. But I 5


### think that what we can do is take a leap of 6


### faith, the environmental leap of faith and say, 7


### it doesn't really matter if it's human caused or 8


### not. The fact is, if we are pumping particulates 9



### and toxic chemicals into the air, then that's 10



### probably not good for the people or for the 11



### planet. 12


### With that in mind, from my day job I 13


### bring to you the fact that thousands of Colorado 14


### homeowners are taking steps now to reduce the 15


### amount of energy that they're using. So that's 16



### the n ews on the bright side. 17


### And so along with that, what I'm here to 18


### tell you is, you're not alone, we are with you. 19


### Again, as John just said, be bold, we'll pledge 20



### to do our part and we need your help. 21



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you very much. 22

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### You can both be seat ed. 1



### Next if I have can have Brad Lewis and 2



### Vivian Weinstein. Is Ms. Weinstein not here? 3


### Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Lewis. Vivian Weinstein, 4



### yes. 5


### Ms. Weinstein, you don't need to stand 6


### until it's your turn to speak if you want to sit 7



### in the chair. Thanks. 8


### Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Lewis. 9


### MR. LEWIS: Good morning. My name is 10


### Bradley Charles Lewis. I'm President of 11


### Westmoreland Energy Services and I'm President of 12


### Friends of Coal West. I'm a registered 13


### professional mining engineer. 14



### M y comments today are pr esented on behalf 15


### of Friends of Coal West as well as my employer 16


### Westmoreland Coal Company. Westmoreland is a top 17


### ten coal company. The oldest coal company in 18



### America. We've been mining coal since 1854, 19



### which is before the Civil War. 20



### I'm proud to be a coal miner. I'm proud 21


### of the contributions the coal mining industry has 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### made to America's greatness and I'm proud to be 1



### an American. 2



### I'm here today to respectfully request 3


### EPA to withdraw the clean power plan. 4



### My top ten reasons are: Number one, a 5



### 375

- page document is not the answer. What we 6



### need is a laser

- focused plan that can be 7


### logically explained within 50 pages. 8


### Number nine, decimating the American 9


### economy while only reducing less than 1 percent 10



### of the global carbon pollutants over 20 years 11



### makes no sense. 12


### Number eight, this plan is nothing more 13


### than a symbolic gesture of reducing carbon by the 14



### U.S. and to expect the rest of the world to 15


### follow suit is absolutely delusional. I can 16


### assure this from my first

- hand experience in 17


### working the pas t 24 years in the international 18



### market 19



### Number seven, the plan gambles our future 20


### on renewables that have repeatedly failed 21



### throughout the world because they are 22

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### uneconomical and unreliable. If renewables were 1


### the right solution for the future, we would not 2


### need political advocates, subsidies or regulatory 3



### -- 4


### Number six, Americans use more energy per 5


### capital and have enjoyed the lowest cost energy 6


### of anybody in the world. Only coal and gas

- fired 7



### power plants have the proven track record of 8


### providing l arge

- scale reliable electricity for 9



### decades. 10


### Number five, energy is the industry that 11


### powers all other industries. The plan callously 12


### disregards the impact of increased energy costs 13


### that have a domino impact on every step in the 14


### supply chain. That resul ts in increased costs of 15


### our goods and services, reduce competitiveness 16


### and job losses. Americans need to get back to 17


### work and stay working. 18



### Number four, the lion's share of the cost 19


### to generate electricity is the fuel costs. 20


### Historically coal price annual increases have 21


### been modest. Conversely gas prices have 22

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### fluctuated wildly over the past 40 years. 1


### Number three, the U.S. utility industry 2


### has made significant progress over the past 40 3


### years in substantially reducing total emissions, 4



### but at the sam e significantly increasing coal 5



### use. 6



### Number two, a central governmental energy 7


### plan has never worked anywhere in the world. The 8


### plan handcuffs the free market's ability to use 9


### American energy to solve the problem. 10



### And number one, all of the above is n ot 11



### what Americans want or need. I do not want two 12


### cups and string, or a dial phone, a landline with 13


### 20 speed dial buttons and a smart phone which is 14



### all the above. I want the cheapest, most 15


### reliable smart phone with outstanding features. 16



### I also want the smart phone equivalent in 17


### electricity and that is increasingly cleaner, 18



### coal

- fired electricity. 19


### Coal is energy dense and our most 20



### abundant global energy resource. Coal

- fired 21


### electricity has energized hospitals, water 22

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### filtration plants, food processing p lants, 1



### factories, urbanization, education, and the 2


### information age. I advocate for continuing the 3


### U.S. trend of the past 40 years of continuously 4


### reducing emissions of coal

- fired plants by 5


### allowing the markets to aggressively develop and 6


### implement the req uisite technologies. 7


### Please step back from all the statistics 8


### and tech jargon and ask yourself, is my life 9


### better today than what it was when I entered this 10


### world? If the answer is yes, thank a coal miner. 11



### Thank you very much and God bless 12



### America. 13


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Lewis. 14



### Ms. Winestein? 15


### MS. WINESTEIN: My name is Vivian 16


### Winestein. I' not paid to be here. I'm just a 17


### member of the community. I'm kind of new in 18


### Colorado, was living in Maryland and Texas prior 19


### to coming here. I'm a retire d nurse and a 20


### grandmother, a mother first and a grandmother. 21



### And I'm a metal worker too, for those that

-- 22

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### when I was a little younger and stronger, okay. 1


### I could weld an extra quality weld. 2



### As someone said before, it does matter 3



### whether you

-- it's not like a religion, you 4


### believe in climate change or not. We know carbon 5


### is getting into the air and it's causing some 6



### problems, lots of problems for lots of people. 7


### And if we improve the situation, whether 8


### you believe in climate change or not, it will 9



### he lp both people, both sides of the people

-- 10



### both groups of people, and people around the 11



### world. 12


### So I'm going to just mention some 13


### personal experiences that I've had and one

-- and 14


### I'm not used to doing this five

- minute thing 15



### because I usually talk a lot longer. But, 16


### anyway, I'm a very talkative person. I'm a 17



### little scared. 18


### Anyway, I have personal experience with 19


### both Sandy and Hurricane Katrina. And it was 20



### really a shock. Okay. 21


### And this seems like a little thing, but 22

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### just multiply it to bigger. Y es, we could hardly 1


### understand thousands of people being washed away 2


### to sea. That sort of thing. It's hard to 3



### comprehend that, okay. But we can comprehend

-- 4



### I went down, there was thousands of people about 5


### four days after Katrina hit, that they moved 6



### p eople to San Antonio and I had been living there 7



### for about seven years. And as a nurse, and I do 8


### like to write, I wanted to go down and speak to 9



### these people and I put a button on my

-- a paper 10


### button that said, "world reporter" and I got 11



### through the gate and there were just buses, and 12


### buses, and buses of people coming from those 13


### terrible places where people were, you know, 14


### trying to get out of, you know, from New Orleans. 15



### And I said

-- and they were all like in a daze. 16


### People were like in the sun and li ke total daze, 17


### they have lost relatives. It was just 18



### unbelievable. 19



### I sat down next to one person, a lady 20


### about maybe the same age as me, 29, and I said, 21


### you know, we talked and I said, tell, me your 22

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### name, what happened to you; do you mind if I ask 1



### you. And she said, no, not at all. And she 2


### said, I just don't know where my family is, I 3


### don't know where anybody is. I was in the 4


### hospital, and the next thing

-- I had a big 5


### operation, and I don't remember the operation, 6



### because I don't think she told me. B ut anyway, 7


### she was plucked off the roof by a helicopter, a 8


### lady my age. And the next thing she knows, she's 9


### on this hours' long bus ride, because it's quite 10


### a long bus ride from New Orleans to San Antonio, 11


### and there she was sitting on a cot. 12



### And I noti ced the front of her dress was 13



### wet. And it concerned me as a nurse. I called 14



### over one of the Red Cross nurses, and I asked her 15



### if she would mind

-- the lady if she would mind 16


### of we checked her surgical area. We went into a 17



### little dark bathroom, that's a ll there was, and 18


### she had a surgical, it was from one side to the 19


### other, okay. Just big open surgery. This is 20


### about four days or so past surgery, okay. So it 21


### wasn't bleeding, but it was draining like 22

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### suisanguineous we call drainage. And the wound 1



### was c overed, not with bandages, not with steri

2


### strips, but little Bandaids, little Bandaids, off 3



### the roof, rode on a bus, traveled hours and hours 4


### bouncing around on a bus, her

-- the rest of her 5



### life at this moment was real infection , a nd it 6



### was a serious risk

. 7



### Okay. So we got her on one of the 8


### ambulances and into a hospital where she was 9



### taken care of. One person our of many, many, 10


### many people you saw some of this. 11



### Another person, he was lucky. He was a 12


### man, you know, maybe in his 30s, a big tall guy. 13



### I remember because he walked fast and I couldn't 14


### keep up with him, and I had double canes at that 15


### time, not a walker. And his parents were with 16


### him, so that was really unusual, both of them in 17



### a wheelchair. He kind of took care of them. He 18



### seemed a litt le bit mentally

-- a little bit

-- 19


### you know, a little slower, a little different 20



### than the rest of us. And when he talked to me, I 21


### noticed something that worried me, and I asked 22

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### him, are you hearing voices. And he said, yes. 1



### And he talked about them for a minute. And I 2


### said, you know, I think they're setting up a 3


### little medical clinic down below and I'll help 4


### you over there. Would you mind

-- would you like 5


### to go down there? Let's see if we can get some 6


### medicine. You haven't had medicine in five days. 7



### Another problem. 8


### All these people who are sick, no 9


### medicine, who thought about the fact that

-- that 10


### the people would be without medicine. So he was 11


### hallucinating. Okay. So we went down there and, 12



### you know, and they actually

-- they gathered a 13



### whol e bunch of people from the nearby hospital to 14


### deal with that problem. And that's the problem s 15


### you wouldn't even think about, the people 16



### wouldn't have their medicine, their heart 17


### medicine, medicine to stop the schizophrenic 18



### symptoms and so forth. 19



### So

-- and my mother was just home from 20


### the hospital. She lived in New York, I'm from 21


### New York originally, as you can hear from my 22

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### voice. 1


### MS. SUTIN: Ms. Winestein, I need you to 2



### wrap up. 3


### MS. WINESTEIN: Okay. Okay. So I'm just 4


### going to say that people on th e 15th floor in New 5


### York City, below 30th Street had no electricity, 6


### mother, two baby children, no water, dirty 7


### diapers, no food, how can she run up and down 8


### with two little babies to get things from the 9



### street? I mean, these are little

-- just how you 10



### li ve from day

- to

- day when these catastrophic 11


### events occur. Okay. And how they impact your 12



### life. 13


### So, anyway, one other thing I just want 14


### to say is that I am concerned about jobs and 15


### about people losing their jobs. And it really is 16


### important that if we m ake these changes that we 17


### have jobs programs that help people to get decent 18


### paying jobs. And this is something our Congress 19


### has failed us terribly, okay. And it's not just 20


### the coal industry and other industries, but when 21


### we make these changes to improve the environment 22

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### and the living standard of people we also have to 1



### make sure that we don't leave people, you know, 2


### without jobs who have skills and knowledge. 3


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Winestein. 4


### MS. WINESTEIN: Okay. That's it. 5



### MS. SUTIN: I really n eed you to finish. 6


### We appreciate your comments. 7



### MS. WINESTEIN: Okay. Thank you. I 8


### always talk too long. It's a family

-- 9



### MS. SUTIN: Okay. If we can have Joshua 10


### Zif, and Dusty Rose. Did I pronounce it right? 11


### Is it Zie? Zie. I apologize. Go ah ead, Mr. 12



### Zie. 13


### MR. ZIE: Thank you for giving the 14


### opportunity to speak for a few minutes today. My 15


### name is Joshua Zie and I'm testifying as counsel 16


### for the Electric Reliability Coordinating 17



### Council. 18



### The ERCC is a broad

- based coalition of 19


### energy companie s. We work to ensure that 20



### consumers across the United States have access to 21


### reliable, affordable, and environmentally 22

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### responsible power. 1


### We share the concern that climate change 2


### policy is complicated and we appreciate that it 3



### involves difficult choices a nd careful balancing 4



### of costs, risks, and benefits. And it also must 5



### take into account the international nature of 6


### carbon emissions. However, this attempt to 7


### establish a nationwide energy and electricity 8


### policy through section 111(d) of the Clean Air 9



### Act is not the proper way to engage in this 10


### policy debate. 11


### Regardless of whether you support this 12


### proposal or not, it is a fact that this is an 13


### unprecedented use of this very small provision of 14



### the Clean Air Act. Three hundred words of the 15



### Clean Air Act con verted to over 300 pages of 16


### proposed regulations and we are concerned that it 17


### threatens the reliability of our country's 18


### electricity supply and will result in 19


### significantly higher energy costs and all of this 20


### without the appreciable benefits that have been 21


### promised to supporters of the rule. 22

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### We believe that EPA should not finalize 1


### the proposal as written and should provide 2


### additional time for comments and analysis to be 3


### prepared. This is a serious issue because when 4


### electricity is unreliable, vulnerable p opulations 5


### can face life threatening conditions as a result 6


### of heat or coal and the basic functioning of our 7


### economy is in peril. And we believe that this 8


### proposal will make our electricity supply less 9



### reliable. 10


### The building blocks described in the 11



### pro posal require that states seeking EPA approval 12


### reconfigure both how electricity is generated and 13


### how it is dispatched. And at the end of this 14



### process the EPA proposal proposes that almost a 15


### third of the existing coal

- fired generation will 16



### be retired betwe en 2020 and 2022 a third of 17


### existing coal

- fired generation will be gone. 18


### These plants currently provide 19


### electricity that sustains our economy and the 20



### health and well

- being of our citizens. When 21


### these plants are shuttered, our electricity 22

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### supply will be entirely dependent upon EPA's 1


### predictions about energy efficiency and the 2



### growth of costly and currently underdeveloped 3


### alternative energies. Our fear is that without 4


### current generating facilities, all it will take 5


### is another polar vortex or heat wave to expose 6


### vulnerabilities and subject businesses and 7



### citizens to energy shortages and price shocks. 8



### At its base we're concerned because EPA 9


### is not in a position fundamentally to craft 10


### reliability policies and EPA has never been 11


### tasked with that authority by Congress. One FERC 12


### commissioner recently stated that he was provided 13


### zero chance to review the clean power plan, that 14


### EPA's reliability assessments are always wrong, 15



### and that EPA has underestimated the number of 16


### retirements from the very beginning. The f act 17


### that effective reliability policies currently 18



### result from careful coordination between FERC, 19


### state and regional regulators, and reliability 20


### organizations other stakeholders is important. 21


### Because under this proposal EPA would be given 22

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### the power to trum p all of their decisions by 1


### approving or disapproving state implementation 2



### plans. 3


### Finally, we are also concerned because 4


### this proposal will increase electricity prices 5


### for households and businesses. In the proposal 6


### EPA admits that electricity prices will increase 7


### between 6 and 7 percent nationally by 2020 as a 8


### result of this rule, and some areas facing 9


### increases in double digits. These increases, 10


### even for short terms are uniquely harmful to 11


### vulnerable populations. The poor and the elderly 12



### need the money that goes to electricity prices 13


### and higher monthly bills, even offset over a long 14


### term does not solve the situation where they have 15


### to choose between basic necessities and paying 16


### monthly bills. 17


### We do not think that camouflaging these 18


### increases by promi sing that the government will 19


### save them money by getting them to use less 20


### electricity is comfort for these populations. 21


### Knowing that the government is trying to make you 22

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### use less electricity will do nothing to help 1



### those on fixed incomes who have to run t heir air 2


### conditioning during a heat wave, or their heat 3


### during a cold snap. In those circumstances, a 4


### promise of greater efficiency, or lower cost over 5



### the next decade does not pay the bill at the end 6



### of the month. 7


### At its core carbon emissions are a gl obal 8



### issue and we've seen U.S. carbon emissions stable 9


### and now decline over the last decade. By 10



### contrast Chinese emissions have increased over 11


### 170 percent, Indian emissions have increased over 12


### 90 percent, and they've announced plans to build 13



### more coal pla nts. 14


### These facts indicate that climate policy 15


### requires a comprehensive approach incorporated, 16


### coordinated legislation, international diplomacy 17


### and a thorough deliberative process. We do not 18


### think this proposal encompasses those strengths. 19



### MS. SUTIN: T hank you, Mr. Zie. 20



### Mr. Rose? 21


### MR. ROSE: Good morning, my name is Dusty 22

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### Rose. I live in Ran ge ly, Colorado and I'm a 1



### member of the Local Union 1984, work for Blue 2


### Mountain Energy, Deserado Mine. I'm here 3


### representing the union at District 22 in Price, 4



### U tah. 5


### Like many of the miners who have 6


### testified before the EPA, the clean power plan 7


### you are proposing. I grew up in a small 8


### community in Colorado. However, before my 9


### miner's career began I enlisted into the Army in 10


### 1993. After basic training, I was d eployed 11


### Haiti. I served in the Army for three years as a 12


### cargo specialist. In that time I served with men 13



### from all across this nation. 14



### As most

-- I'm nervous, sorry. 15


### MS. SUTIN: That's okay, take your time. 16



### MR. ROSE: As most who have served, I 17



### feel a unique bond with others who have been 18


### drafted or joined the military. Military service 19


### teaches you many things including a sense of 20


### commitment to your country and brotherhood with 21


### those who serve with you. 22

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### My service to our country has helped me 1



### defin e who I am and I'm proud of my service to 2



### this nation. 3



### In 2002 I began my career at Deserado 4


### Mine. I built a life for my family, educated my 5


### children and have been a hard working member of 6


### society. And like with my military service, I 7



### was surrounded by a very unique group of people. 8


### Coal miners rely on each other. I was surrounded 9


### by a very unique group

-- oops sorry

-- they 10



### looked out for one another and worked that we do 11



### not create

-- and the work that we do creates a 12



### brotherhood of its own. 13



### There are a few occupations in this world 14


### that require each person to rely so heavily on 15


### the brothers and sisters they work with, like 16


### with my military service, I'm proud to be among 17



### them. 18


### I have worked hard to make a living in 19



### the mines and those efforts have helped me grow 20



### this

-- has helped this nation grow into a world 21


### superpower. Coal has powered the industrial 22

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### base, built suitable manufacturing and made sure 1


### that when each of you flips a switch the light 2



### turn on. 3


### I have made a good living in the mines 4



### a nd through the years my service earned a pension 5


### and health care for my retirement. With the 6


### implementation of this rule, you are threatening 7


### all that I have worked for. You will pay my 8


### pension

-- you will put my pension plan at risk 9


### and eliminate my hea lth care all at the same 10



### time. The EPA plan to marginalize the coal 11


### industry in this country will have no positive 12


### impacts on the global problems you are targeting, 13


### but it will destroy all that I and my fellow 14



### miners have worked for. 15



### Let me assure you a s one that has served 16



### this nation on the battlefield and in the coal 17


### mine our struggles against this rule is only the 18


### beginning. 19



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Rose. 20



### You can both be seated. Next if I can 21



### have David E llenberger and Lawrence Oliver. 22

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### Go ahea d, Mr. E llenberger. 1



### MR. E LLENBERGER: Thank you. My name is 2



### David E llenberger. I'm a regional outreach case 3


### manager with the National Wildlife Federation at 4


### the Rocky Mountain Regional Center in Boulder, 5



### Colorado. For over 75 years we've been 6



### advocatin g for solutions to the nations largest 7


### conservation challenges, and for the past decade 8


### NWF with its four million members and supporters 9



### and 47 state affiliates has been on the 10


### frontlines of documenting the profound impact of 11


### climate change on our natural resources and the 12


### people and the wildlife that depend on them. 13



### W e've been on the cusp

-- climate prices 14


### being stalwart advocates for a future that 15



### embraces clean energy to power our homes and cars 16


### and where wildlife and our lands are protected 17



### from carbo n intensive energy sources. 18


### To be successful in addressing the 19


### climate prices, however, we have a long road 20



### ahead. 21


### We believe EPA can achieve greater 22

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### reductions. EPA's proposed targets can and 1


### should be strengthened. Pollution reductions 2



### could be great er at a reasonable cost. Our 3


### initial analysis indicates emissions can be 4


### reduced beyond those projected by the EPA. The 5


### goal of this plan should be to reduce emissions 6


### by 35 to 40 percent below 2005 emission levels by 7



### 2020. 8


### Primarily the formula used by EPA to 9


### establish the emission target standard in each 10


### state needs to be adjusted to reflect the fact 11


### that additional available clean energy

-- clean 12


### renewable energy and energy efficiency resources 13


### would replace generation from the dirtiest 14


### possible fuel sources and at a faster pace 15


### yielding greater emissions reductions than EPA 16



### assumed. 17


### In energy efficiency the EPA has rightly 18


### recognized that energy efficiency is the most 19



### cost

- effective resource to reduce emissions and 20



### that many successful state programs adequately 21


### demonstrate the potential for efficiency across 22

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### the country. 1



### However, more cost

- effective efficiency 2


### is available more quickly and at a lower cost 3


### than EPA assumed in this proposal. 4



### State programs have demonstrated that the 5


### ability to ramp up more quickly in EPA's proposal 6


### would require and to use a wider variety of 7


### effective energy efficiency tools than EPA 8



### considered. 9



### On renewables, clean renewable energy has 10


### been growing at an astonishing rate. In 2012 11



### when energy and solar were two of the fastest 12


### growing electric generation technologies in the 13



### U.S. cumulative installed win d energy capacity 14


### increased by nearly 28 percent and cumulative 15


### installed solar capacity grew by more than 83 16


### percent from the previous year. EPA rightly 17



### includes the se resources in setting state 18


### targets, but the availability and quality of 19


### opportunities assumed is too low. By setting 20


### assumptions about renewable energy potential far 21



### too low, EPA left substantial achievable 22

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### reductions off the table. EPA should analyze 1


### resource availability and costs on a state and 2


### regional basis rather than limiting the 3


### assessment of potential development to mandated 4


### renewables and state renewable portfolio 5



### standards. The agency should remove any 6


### artificial limits on renewable energy growth and 7



### use the annual renewable energy growth factor for 8


### each state that reflects the renewable potential 9


### for states and regions. 10


### EPA also needs to adjust its analysis to 11


### include the full potential of a wider variety of 12



### renewable resources that are cu rrently excluded 13



### from consideration such as distributed solar and 14



### offshore wind. 15


### And natural gas, in establishing each 16



### state's target EPA should fully account for 17


### planned and anticipated fossil fuel plant 18


### retirements and the current rate of change from 19


### full to lower emitting resources including 20



### natural gas. 21



### In other words, EPA must insure that its 22

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### approach to natural gas at a lower emitting 1



### source will drive emissions reductions that would 2



### not have already occurred. EPA should also be 3



### concerned about life cycle emissions from natural 4


### gas production and move forward with parallel 5


### additional regulations to ensure methane 6


### pollution does not erase the climate benefits of 7


### increased reliance on natural gas over coal. 8



### The west has tremendous renewable energy 9


### potential, vast quantities of onshore wind exist 10


### across the west, particularly in the plains where 11


### onshore wind potential is unmatched in the 12


### nation. The southwest has the nation's highest 13


### sun potential and must of the rest of the west is 14



### close behind. The west has some of the most 15


### aggressive state renewable energy portfolio 16


### standards in the country with Colorado out in 17


### front with its 30 percent requirement by 2020. 18


### This is in part because of the vast renewable 19


### energy potential in this region. And rath er than 20


### using a formula that expects the states will do 21


### little to nothing in terms of developing 22

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### renewables further, EPA should factor in a 1


### greater potential for even greater renewable 2


### energy development in the west to develop targets 3


### that will achieve sig nificantly greater 4



### reductions. 5



### Colorado can outpace the assumed growth 6


### in renewable energy generation the EPA relied on 7


### to set this state target. The EPA standard for 8


### Colorado should be strengthened to reflect this. 9


### Colorado can and should comply with the clean 10


### power plan through continue emphasis on wildlife 11


### friendly renewable energy and energy efficiency. 12


### Strong state plans and a burgeoning renewable 13


### energy industry in our state, Colorado has great 14


### potential to expand solar and wind, power across 15



### th e state, and then back. Colorado is already 16


### ranked fourth in the nation for solar energy 17


### potential. 18



### Thank you. 19


### MS. SUTIN: Mr. Ellenberger, do you mind 20


### spelling your last name for the court reporter? 21



### MR. ELLENBERGER: Yeah, E

- l

- l

- e

- n

- b

- e

- r

22

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### g

- e

- r. 1



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 2


### Mr. Oliver, go ahead. 3


### MR. OLIVER: My name is Lawrence Oliver. 4


### I'm a coal miner employed at Peabody Western 5



### Coal , Kayenta mine in Arizona and a member of 6



### United Mine Workers of America, Local 1924. 7



### I've also served as an executiv e 8


### assistant to Dr. Joe Shirley, Jr., President of 9


### Navajo Nation for six and a half years from 2003 10



### to 2009. 11


### My comments will be brief. I will keep 12


### them to the subject that I believe goes to the 13


### heart of crafting of this rule. That is, how can 14



### a rule tha t affects scores of workers become law 15


### without a vote in Congress with an agency that 16


### has adopted the policy never understanding the 17


### damage they do to real people and real families. 18


### EPA has billed this hearing and the ones 19


### in other cities as a, quote, "op portunity for 20


### interested parties to present data, views or 21


### arguments, concerning the proposed action." 22

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### Unfortunately, what EPA is attempting to 1


### accomplish in these hearings is to avoid 2


### listening to the very people who will bear the 3


### brunt of this misguid ed policy. 4


### It is truly dishonest for EPA to avoid 5


### going to the coal fields to hold these hearings. 6


### But yet in the metropolitan areas this is the 7


### only place that even comes close to being in the 8


### coal fields. But even then the closest working 9



### coal mines are several counties away from here. 10



### I have no doubt that this rule will be 11


### implemented by your agency at great personal and 12


### community expense to my family and thousands of 13


### other families who do not live anywhere close to 14


### where you have conducted hearing s. 15



### I would like to add also that this rule 16


### the Navajo nation will suffer too because of the 17


### royalties from Kayenta mine and SRP plant in 18


### Page, Arizona provides the major part of the 19


### government's operating budget. It's no surprise 20



### to the people where I am from that the conclusion 21


### you have reached in the rule you will impose is 22

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### misguided. You have ignored the very people who 1


### are mostly severely impacted. Furthermore, this 2


### policy will threaten the health and welfare of 3


### the poor and elderly on limited in come. They 4


### will be subjected to skyrocketing electric 5


### utility rates. 6


### The idea that you do not even afford 7


### members of communities that will be economically 8


### devastated by your actions, at the very least has 9


### the appearance of arrogance. It reinforces the 10


### belief that your determinations are made solely 11


### on the data and information you deem important 12


### regardless of what other information may be 13



### available elsewhere. 14


### I sincerely request that you not stop 15


### here, conduct more hearings where the people who 16



### will be most adversely impacted by this rule live 17



### and work. Come to Morgantown and Beckley, West 18


### Virginia, Pennsylvania, Henderson, Kentucky and 19


### Price, Utah. When you make life and death 20



### decisions for worker and families in the 21


### communities, you should have the courage to look 22

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### them in the eye. 1


### Yes, I did say life or death decisions, 2


### that is what is happening with this rule. And 3


### every one of us should treat it with that 4


### understanding. I hope that EPA considers better 5


### policy that recognizes the desperate need for 6



### low

- cost electricity while leading to continuous 7


### emissions improvements. 8



### Thank you. 9


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Oliver. 10


### Okay. If I can have Jennifer Filiault 11


### and Jeff Wadsworth. Ms. Filiault, if you can 12



### spell your name for the reporter? 13



### MS. FILIA ULT: Good morning. My name is 14



### Jen Filiault, F as in Frank, i

- l

- i

- a

- u

- l

- t. 15


### I'm actually in from Boston to 16


### participate in the hearings this week. And I did 17


### not intend to speak. I'm here to coordinate 18


### groups of activists from around the country that 19



### are living in the front

- line communities that are 20


### dealing directly with energy impacts. 21


### However, there was a spot available and I 22

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### saw an opportunity, so I figured I would take it. 1



### I'm here today to express support for the EPA 2


### taking action on regulating ca rbon and other 3


### greenhouse gas emissions. 4


### The rule is a small step forward. 5


### However, I would urge the EPA to act aggressively 6



### both on carbon emissions and methane emissions 7



### from our energy sector, and also to look at the 8


### entire life cycle impacts that ene rgy has on our 9


### communities around the country. 10



### The activists that I am here with this 11



### week are from all over the U.S. We have some 12


### folks in from Kentucky and West Virginia that are 13


### living in communities dealing with mountain top 14


### removal coal mining. The y are seeing the health 15


### impacts within their families and their 16


### communities that coal is having. I've had 17


### opportunities to travel to many of these 18


### communities and meet the amazing people that are 19


### working relentlessly to protect themselves and 20



### their future generations. 21


### I was in West Virginia right after the 22

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### chemical spill into their water supply in 1


### Charleston when 300,000 people were without fresh 2



### water for months and the water is still not 3


### repaired. And that chemical was spilled because 4



### of the coal indu stry. The coal industry uses the 5



### chemical to wash the coal. And there was 6


### negligence on behalf of the state and the also 7


### the industry and those 300,000 people, their 8



### families

-- they were affected, their water 9


### supplies and they will never get the same qu ality 10



### of water back. 11



### I'm also here with some folks from 12


### Wisconsin that are dealing with the impacts of 13


### frack sand mining. It's a lesser

- known issue 14


### than mountain top removal, but it is detriment

-- 15



### I mean, the effects in the communities are 16



### detrimental. Fracked sand is the sand that is 17



### taken from the bluffs and the hills and the 18



### driftless area of the Midwest. It is used to be 19


### shot into the ground with chemicals and fresh 20


### water to generate gas for fracking. And they are 21


### also in need of help from the EPA and other 22

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### regulators to ensure that their health is not 1


### being completely dismissed to allow industry to 2


### run rampant to extract the sand for fracking. 3



### We also have activists in Montana and 4


### Wyoming that are dealing with coal mining out 5



### west and the health and water impacts that 6


### they're seeing out here, the transportation of 7



### coal to the west coast for export. They are 8


### bearing the brunt of the health impacts in their 9



### communities here so that we can send the coal 10



### elsewhere. 11



### And we also have activists from 12



### P ennsylvania and New York that are working to 13


### protect their communities from fracking. They 14



### are seei ng huge impacts to their water, to their 15



### health, to their families, their children, their 16


### communities, fracking is destroying communities 17



### in the northeast a nd the methane emissions, the 18


### fugitive emissions from the wells, that needs to 19



### be taken into account as well because methane in 20


### terms of global warming emissions is a 21


### significantly more potent global warming gas. 22

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### And yet that's not addressed within EPA ru le. 1


### The entire country is dealing with the 2


### extreme weather impacts, as we heard a little bit 3


### earlier, and I heard about a lot yesterday. 4


### Actually even coming from Boston yesterday, my

-- 5


### or Monday, my flight left right before a tornado 6



### touched down in th e Boston area. We don't have 7



### tornados in Boston, that's not normal for us. 8



### And then I arrived here, about an hour before 9


### there was a tornado warning at the Denver 10


### airport. These extreme weather events are 11


### costing our country not only in terms of safety 12


### and health and quality of life, but in terms of 13


### our economy. We need to pay for these disasters 14



### to be cleaned up. 15



### We have a better way. We're smarter than 16


### that. We have the technology available to begin 17


### to move towards renewables and efficiency in a 18


### way that is not only technologically possible, 19


### but economically preferable in the short term of 20


### efficiency and in the long term. I hope to be 21


### alive for at least 60 more years. And if we're 22

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### talking about 2050, my lifetime hopefully expands 1



### beyond that. S o we need to really start 2


### addressing those concerns today to start that 3


### transition. The EPA rule is a step in the right 4


### direction. It needs to be stronger, it needs 5


### address methane and we need to be looking at the 6


### life cycle impacts of our energy not on ly from 7



### the smoke stacks of our power plants, but from 8


### the communities that are dealing with the mining, 9


### the water impacts, the transportation of these 10



### fuels. 11


### So I guess I will wrap up there. I just 12



### -- I support the rule, I support the activists 13



### that a re here to speak on behalf of their 14


### communities. We have a better way and we need to 15


### move in that direction. So, thank you. 16



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 17



### Mr. Wodsworth. 18


### MR. WODSWORTH: Good morning. My name is 19



### Jeff Wodsworth, I'm the CEO of Puter Valley RE A, 20



### a non

- profit electric cooperative, headquartered 21


### in Fort Collins, Colorado, just north of here. 22

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### Thank you for giving me the opportunity 1


### to provide Puter Valley REA's initial thoughts on 2



### the EPA's proposed power plan. 3


### We serve approximately 38,000 mete rs in 4



### Boulder, Larimer, and Well Counties. Our 5


### residential class of service makes up 85 percent 6



### of our consumer base. However, industrial 7


### customers which represents only 10 percent of the 8


### total number of consumers provides over 50 9



### percent of our revenues . These industrial 10


### consumers that I mention represent some of the 11


### largest employers in Northern Colorado. 12



### We are also member owners of Tri

- State 13



### Generation Transmission Cooperative and purchase 14


### a significant portion of our power requirements 15



### from them. So some of our concerns expressed by 16



### Tri

- State will also be concerns of Puter Valley 17



### REA. 18


### I would like stress what Puter Valley REA 19


### has done locally in generating renewable projects 20


### ranging from community solar farms to geothermal, 21



### to small hydro elect ric along with the robust 22

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### energy efficiency programs we have, all done at 1



### the local level with no federal or state mandates 2


### or regulations. 3


### As a cooperative all our costs, including 4


### complying with the regulations like the clean 5


### power plan are paid for b y our consumers. This 6


### is an important point because we serve a wide 7


### array of consumers that will pay to comply with 8


### these rules which some have suggested will be in 9



### the billions of dollars. 10



### This means the burden of the costs of 11


### complying with these prop osed rules will be on 12


### some of the largest employers in northern 13


### Colorado along with our small businesses and 14



### residential consumers. 15


### We are in the process of analyzing the 16


### impacts of the proposal. We are working closely 17



### with Tri

- state, the National Rural Electric 18


### Association, NRECA, and other trade groups to 19



### leverage our resources and get the best legal and 20


### technical analysis completed. 21


### Our initial analysis has raised several 22

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### concerns that I hope to highlight today and 1


### address by working with the EPA, sta te agencies, 2


### and others in the industry. We are supportive of 3


### efforts to address air quality and the 4


### environment as mentioned previously and are 5


### looking at ways at the local and state level to 6


### do our part. We also believe any regulations 7



### that take into c onsideration what renewables have 8


### already been installed, regardless of the year, 9


### was completed from solar to wind to hydroelectric 10


### generation. 11


### To expand on hydroelectric generation 12


### these proposed rules are ignoring a huge source 13



### of emission

- free electr icity that is already in 14



### place, the federal hydropower system. Large 15



### hydropower should be considered by the federal 16


### government as emission

- free generating resource 17


### that is not adequately

-- that's not even 18


### incorporated into your proposed plan. 19



### The limit on large hydropower is 20


### artificial and only in place to increase market 21



### share for other renewables. At the very least 22

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### tri

- state and other beneficiaries, the federal 1


### hydro system should get credit for the generation 2


### under this plan. 3



### Another concern relates to the 4


### environmental dispatching the proposed 5


### regulations used in calculating the final CO2 6



### reductions for each state. This was done by 7


### randomly increasing natural gas combined cycle 8


### capacity factors to 70 percent regardless of 9



### economics

. 10



### (Technical in terruption.) 11



### MR. WODSWORTH: Thank you. 12



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Take a break. 13


### We're waiting for other speakers to arrive. So 14



### feel free to take a bathroom break, stretch your 15



### legs, and we'll be back at 10:20. 16



### (Brief recess taken at 10:01 a.m.) 17



### (Record resumes at 10:20 a.m.) 18


### MS. SUTIN: Okay. I think we're going to 19


### get started again. Before I call the next 20


### speakers, I just want to make a quick 21



### announcement. We found the driver's license for 22

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### -- we found a driver's license for Rosslyn Bower. 1


### So if yo u are in the room or you know Rosslyn, 2


### have her check in with the registration desk, we 3



### have her driver's license. 4


### Okay. If I can have Mike Kopp and Kent 5


### Singer. Mr. Kopp, you'll go first, and just a 6


### reminder, if you can spell your name for the 7



### record for the court reporter. 8



### MR. KOPP: Be happy to. 9



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 10



### MR. KOPP: So Mike Kopp, K

- o

- p

- p. 11



### MS. SUTIN: Go ahead. 12


### MR. KOPP: Good morning. My name is Mike 13


### Kopp, corporate affairs manager for Intermountain 14



### Rural Electric Association whi ch is headquartered 15


### in Sedalia, Colorado. I'm here to testify on 16



### behalf of Sedalia, or IREA, rather. 17


### Sedalia is the center of our roughly 18


### 5,000 square mile service territory across which 19



### we serve about 144,000 customers as a 20


### distribution cooperative. 21


### After significant discussion with other 22

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### Colorado utility professionals, we believe the 1


### proposed rule is fundamentally flawed and is 2



### unwritten and is unworkable. We make three 3


### observations concerning those flaws and they 4


### relate to the timing outlined in t he rule, flaws 5


### within the building blocks themselves and the 6


### institutional and political realities that are 7


### attendant in Colorado with respect to 8


### implementation of the rule. 9


### First, with respect to the issue of 10


### timing, the EPA directs the states to achie ve 11



### rather dramatic CO2 reductions as measured in 12


### pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour and directs 13



### states to make the most dramatic reductions in 14


### the first three years of operation after the rule 15


### after the CIP that would be approved in 2017, the 16


### interim goal mus t be reached by 2020. 17



### Why? 18


### As the proposed rule is written, Colorado 19


### regulators are directed to ensure an interim 20


### reduction here in Colorado of 32.4 percent. But 21


### then the EPA allows for a period of ten years to 22

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### make the final reductions called for in the rule, 1


### which will bring the state to its eventual 2


### reduction goal of 35.4 percent. 3


### Even if the building blocks were 4



### suitable, and we take issue with them, even if 5


### they were suitable to create such reductions, why 6


### does the EPA frontload compliance in su ch a 7



### matter. 8


### In the electric utility industry, 9


### utilities invest massive amounts of capital and 10


### infrastructure and it's based on the assumption 11


### that we'll get a return on the investment for 12


### those massive outlays of capital. 13


### Based on the assumption that o ur plant 14


### that we put into service is going to see its 15



### useful life, this rule assumes that there's 16



### incredible coincidence between the EPA's one

17



### size

- fits

- all timeline and the asset retirement 18


### schedule of the utilities across the country. 19



### Electric utilities are mandated both by 20


### public utilities commissions and the stewardship 21



### demands placed upon them by the consumers on 22

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### their own systems to avoid stranding assets. 1


### Yet, if the building blocks do not work, and do 2


### not work moreover on the specified timeline, w e 3



### will in fact have stranded assets. We would 4


### argue that this amounts to a form of regulatory 5


### taking. 6



### Secondly, we share the concerns of nearly 7


### every other utility professional we speak to 8


### about the opportunities that actually exist in 9


### implementing the building blocks. I don't have 10


### time to address challenges that we have with four 11


### of them, but I'll speak to just two. 12


### Concerning the first, we're yet to 13


### identify

-- and this is rather striking

-- we are 14


### yet to identify a single expert in the industry 15



### w ho believes a 6 percent heat rate improvement is 16



### achievable in Colorado's coal fleet. If coal 17


### steam operators could achieve this improvement in 18


### order to benefit their customers, and frankly 19


### their own financial margins, they would have 20



### already done so. 21



### Bu ilding block number two is similarly 22

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### problematic. The EPA believe the NGCC plants can 1


### achieve capacity factors of 70 percent when they 2


### are typically designed to operate at much lower 3


### thresholds. In fact, when operating at higher 4


### levels they will wear out . Moreover they 5


### typically do not have air permits that allow 6


### operation at anything close to the 70 percent 7


### capacity. And we're doubtful that the natural 8


### gas storage transmission rights and pipeline 9


### capacity currently exists for operation at the 10



### level ass umed by the proposed standard. 11


### It is interesting the fact that many of 12


### the same groups that would be in favor of placing 13


### these kinds of local strictures on natural gas 14


### are also in favor of a rule that would require 15



### much more use of natural gas. 16



### Third, an d finally, there are real 17


### political and institutional realities that have 18



### to be taken into account here. State law needs 19


### to change, potentially the state constitution 20


### itself. The EPA simply cannot wave its hand at 21


### the states and hope that the rule will b e 22

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### successful as they've done so. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Kopp. 3


### Okay. Mr. Singer. 4



### MR. SINGER: Good morning. Thank you. 5


### My name is Kent Singer, S

- i

- n

- g

- e

- r. I'm the 6



### Executive Director of the Colorado Rural Electric 7



### Association. 8



### CREA is the statewide trade association 9


### for Colorado's 22 electric distribution coops and 10


### one generation and transmission association. And 11


### you've heard from a couple of our members this 12


### morning. Puter Valley REA, and just now 13



### Intermountain REA. 14



### Colorado's electric coops are non

- profit, 15



### member

- owned electric utilities that serve over 16



### 70 percent of the land mass of Colorado but only 17


### about 20 percent of Colorado's electricity 18


### consumers. This means we serve primarily rural 19


### areas with an average consumer densi ty of 8 20


### consumers per mile of line. 21



### Investor

- owned utilities and municipal 22

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### utilities, by comparison have on average 30 to 40 1


### consumers per mile of line. 2


### The mission of Colorado's electric coops 3


### is to provide reliable and affordable service to 4



### rural C olorado which is a challenge given the low 5


### density of our systems and the extensive 6


### facilities that are required to serve all corners 7



### of the state. 8



### We look at the EPA's clean power plan 9


### from the perspective of how it will impact our 10


### ability to continue to provide reliable and 11



### affordable service to rural Colorado. 12



### We're concerned that the proposed rules 13


### do not recognize the unique challenges facing 14


### electric coops in providing affordable power to 15



### rural Colorado. The rules don't consider the 16



### fact that c oops have far fewer consumers who will 17


### have to bear the costs required to meet the 18


### emission reductions required by the rules. 19


### The primary focus of the rule requiring 20


### coops to switch power generation from coal

- fire 21


### generation to natural gas will require 22

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### s ignificant investments in any of the new power 1


### plants or purchased power displacing lower

- cost 2



### coal resources. 3


### Electric coops have a higher percentage 4


### of coal generation in their portfolio given the 5


### timing of power plant investments. When many of 6



### our p lants were built in the mid

- 1980s to meet 7


### load growth, we were prohibited by federal law, 8


### the 1978 Fuel Use Act from using natural gas for 9


### electricity generation. Therefore we have large 10



### investments in coal

- fired generation that may be 11



### stranded unless the rules are revised to give us 12


### more time to switch from coal to gas. 13



### Although natural gas today appears to be 14


### plentiful and the cheaper alternative for power 15


### generation, that may not always be the case given 16


### the desire of many companies to export liquefi ed 17


### natural gas from the United States to other 18



### countries. 19


### Considering the historic volatility of 20


### natural gas prices, it seems likely that a 21


### reliance on natural gas will result in increased 22

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### costs for electricity generation in coming years. 1


### During last wi nter's polar vortex in the 2


### midwest and northeast parts of the country, 3



### older, coal

- fired plants were critical in 4


### sustaining the grid and keeping the lights on 5


### when supply problems limited the availability of 6



### natural gas

- fired plants. 7



### We are also concern ed with the fact that 8


### the clean power plan creates a new authority in 9


### the EPA to essentially be involved in the utility 10


### resource plans of all utilities including 11


### electric coops. Electric coops are governed by 12


### their locally elected boards who are in a bett er 13


### position to understand the dynamics of their 14


### local power systems and the desire of their 15



### member owners than the EPA. 16


### Colorado's electric coops support energy 17


### efficiency and we have worked with our member 18


### owners for many years to help them find ways to 19


### operate more efficiently and save money on their 20


### power bills. 21



### We don't have an incentive to sell more 22

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### kilowatt hours since we are nonprofit utilities. 1


### We also support net metering and the ability of 2



### our member owners to self

- generate electricity so 3



### lon g as they are not subsidized by their 4


### neighbors. 5


### We will continue to support energy 6


### efficiency, distributed generation, and renewable 7



### energy because our member owners tell us they 8


### support these policies. 9


### As the EPA develops final rules for 10



### carbon emiss ion reduction, we ask that you 11


### consider the unique circumstance of Colorado's 12



### member

- owned electric coops and that you provide 13


### as much flexibility as possible in meeting these 14



### targets. 15


### We appreciate this opportunity to comment 16


### and request that EPA serio usly consider the 17


### impacts of its rules on Colorado's farmers, 18


### ranchers, and rural electricity consumers. 19


### Thank you for your time. 20


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Singer. 21


### Next if we can have Ryan Shininger and 22

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### Steve Stevens. 1


### Mr. Shininger. 2



### MR. SHININGER : Yes. 3



### MS. SUTIN: Go ahead. 4


### MR. SHININGER: My name is Ryan 5


### Shininger. That's spelled S

- h

- i

- n

- i

- n

- g

- e

- r. 6



### And I have a prepared statement on behalf of my 7



### company Amagao Solar. 8


### My name is Ryan Shininger. I'm the 9


### director of engineering for Amagao Sol ar

. Our 10


### U.S. headquarters are in Lakewood, Colorado. 11


### Amagao applies innovative technology solutions 12


### for sustainability in the energy and environment 13


### sectors generating electricity from renewable 14


### resources converting biomass into biofuels and 15


### producing dr inking water from sea water. 16


### Amagoa's solar business unit develops and 17


### applies technologies to generate electricity from 18


### the sun using mostly solar thermal electric 19


### technologies also known as concentrating solar 20



### power. 21


### Amagoa supports the Environmental 22

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### P rotection Agency's use of Section 111(d) of the 1



### clean environment Clean Air Act to reduce carbon 2


### dioxide emissions from the power sector and EPA's 3


### approach that provides states with the 4


### flexibility to take advantage of solar as part of 5


### a diverse compliance portfolio. 6


### We also support, including solar, i n the 7


### definition of the best systems of emission 8



### reduction . As solar has a suite of proven 9


### technologies that can play a significant role in 10


### helping states reach compliance. 11


### In particular concentrating so lar power 12


### can be a significant part of western states' 13


### compliance. CSP uses mirrors to concentrate the 14


### radiation from the sun to generate steam to turn 15



### a conventional steam turbine. This thermal 16


### energy can also be stored to produce electricity 17



### when it is needed night or day. 18


### A CSP plant with thermal energy storage 19


### offers all the services provided by fossil fuel 20


### plants without carbon and other emissions. 21


### CSP plants with thermal energy storage 22

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### can provide operational attributes and other good 1



### services that can assist utilities and grid 2


### operators in maintaining grid reliability. 3



### CSP can be combined with conventional 4


### power plants to form hybrid plants. 5


### Hybridization lowers dependency on conventional 6


### fuel and cuts CO2 emissions from fossil plants. 7



### CSP also diversifies the energy mix and 8


### hedges against the volatility of natural gas. 9


### This technology is commercially available today; 10


### Amagoa Solar's 280 megawatt CSP plant with six 11


### hours of thermal energy storage providing 12


### dispatchable energy after sunset or when cloudy. 13


### Solana delivers enough electricity to supply 14


### approximately 70,000 Arizona household s and will 15


### prevent the emission of more than 475,000 tons of 16


### CO2 in the the atmosphere every year. 17


### For example, if a power plant like Solana 18


### were to displ ace a coal plant, it would prevent 19



### the emission of more than one million tons of CO2 20



### every year. 21


### In addition to clean energy, CSP provides 22

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### jobs and economic growth throughout the U.S. 1


### Over 70 percent of construction 2


### components, products and services for our Solana 3


### and Mojave CSP plants are sourced from companies 4



### here in the U.S. involving 300 companies from 31 5



### states. 6


### Amagoa has sustainability as a 7



### cornerstone of company strategy and we are 8


### convinced that CSP with thermal energy storage 9



### can contribute significantly to strong and 10


### diverse 111(d) compliance plants. 11



### Thank you. 12


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Shininger. 13



### Mr. Stevens. 14



### MR. STEVENS: My name is Steve Stevens, 15



### S

- t

- e

- v

- e

- n

- s. I represent my grandchildren, I 16


### represent the grandchildren of everybod y here 17


### born and unborn, those grandchildren are not able 18


### to be up here and speak. I am speaking in 19



### support of the rules. I do that reluctantly only 20


### in that I think that although they are bold from 21


### a political standpoint, I think they are very 22

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### weak from the realities of the situation that we 1



### find ourselves in , ecologically and 2


### environmentally. And I'll give you a little bit 3



### about my background. 4



### I have heard a report that the head of 5



### the Colorado

-- one of the fossil fuel industry 6


### organizations has said that those that are 7


### against fossil fuel

- based power are all long

8


### haired and some other kind of young radical

- ish 9


### things. I'm not young, I'm in my eighth decade. 10


### The hair is not what it once was, but my 11


### career didn't let it be long. 12


### My background was i n science and math and 13



### computers. I was at AT&T Bell Telephone 14


### laboratories my whole career as a member of the 15



### staff

-- a distinguished member of staff, a 16


### manager, and then responsible for taking Bell 17


### labs technical products out into the world. 18



### I've gone around the world on business 19


### trips 120 times. I'm not proud of that fossil 20


### footprint, but it was to get U.S. products placed 21



### overseas. 22

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### My training was math, physics, applied 1


### math and computer science. And so I am a 2


### scientist, a grandfather, I'm a retir ee, and I

-- 3


### and an advocate for what I call rational sanity, 4


### and I'm a possibility demonstrator. Now, you 5


### don't usually hear that as an avocation or 6


### vocation, but because I care about my 7


### grandchildren, I have taken a 1970s house that's 8


### about 600 foot hig her up the hill in Golden, 9


### right near Enrel and changed the walls from being 10


### R9 to being

-- one of them is R104. People don't 11


### believe that, architects say no way, if they come 12


### out they go holy S, expletive deleted, you did. 13



### And I have

-- I'm growing orang es, mandarin 14



### oranges, navel oranges, bananas, lemons, 15


### cumquats, apples, pears, peaches. Arthritis 16


### herb, oh, yeah, it helps, and a lot of other 17


### things in what was lawn and what is now a passive 18


### envelope on the cell side collecting 650 square 19


### foot of glazin g. I have PV on the roof. 20



### Of course, Bell labs where I worked 21



### invented PV. It invented the transistor. It 22

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### invented the cell phone. It invented

-- they got 1



### three patents a day for 75 years before the 2


### Reagan Administration busted up the Bell system 3



### and Bell labs went away. But, anyway, I am going 4


### to talk a little bit about the science, logic, 5


### ethics and morality. I have a minute, okay. 6


### And the industries that are very profit

7



### motivated don't talk about science and ethics and 8


### morality, but I think that ethics are extremely 9


### important. And so when we do things that have 10


### downstream costs that can be very injurious, and 11



### we do

-- and when we do them in very small 12



### amounts, but the aggregate of a lot of people 13


### doing small amounts makes a large amount. I 14



### thin k to do that from a profit motive and to say 15



### that we have to have return on investment and all 16


### those things is not a very good way to deal. 17


### I'm done by the red light, so I'll excuse 18



### myself. Thank you for the chance to speak. 19



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Stevens. 20



### Next if we can have Shaw n Gallegos and 21



### Sonny Kelly. 22

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### MS. SUTIN: Mr. Gallegos, you will go 1


### first. And if you can spell your name for the 2



### reporter. 3



### MR. GALLEGOS: Sure. I'm Shawn Gallegos, 4



### G

- a

- l

- l

- e

- g

- o

- s. First name Shawn, S

- h

- a

- w

- n. 5



### I'm wi th the Boilermakers Local 101. I 6


### am the recording Secretary and board member for 7



### Boilermakers Local 101 and I'm here on their 8



### behalf. 9


### It starts off with coal and natural gas, 10


### they're both very reliant. Coal has been the 11


### backbone of this country for elec trical needs for 12


### a a considerable time and creates quite a few 13


### jobs and we work both natural gas and coal, but 14


### as far as we see it, the EPA is really coming 15



### down hard on coal and some of the laws that are 16


### going into effect there and I'd like to speak on 17



### th at behalf. 18


### The EPA reports that the reduction of the 19


### CO2 emissions under the clean power plan is 20


### equivalent to a 30 percent cut from 2005 21


### emissions. However, EPA's proposal gives no 22

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### credit to states that already have reduced their 1



### CO2 emissions due to ma rket

- driven forces such as 2


### an increase in natural gas use, the retirement of 3



### older coal

- generating power plants and the 4


### construction of new nuclear generation. 5



### Since 2005 CO2 emissions from the fossil 6



### fuel plants have decreased by 13 percent. Many 7



### stat es highly dependent on coal

- based generation 8


### have already achieved significant emission 9



### reductions but still face the additional burden 10


### of further reducing their CO2 emissions on the 11


### short time table set by the EPA's rules. 12


### The EPA also projects that this rule will 13


### cause the loss of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal

14


### generating capacity by the year 2020. These 15


### retirements are in addition to the 92 gigawatts 16


### of coal capacity that the EPA has already 17


### projected will shut down between 2012 and 2020, 18


### due in large part to the compliance with the 2012 19


### mercury and air toxic rule. 20


### We believe that losing around 130 21


### gigawatts of base

- load coal capacity, nearly 40 22

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### percent of the nation's coal generation fleet in 1



### 2012 raises serious concerns about the future 2


### reliability of ou r electrical power supplies. 3


### A preliminary estimate of the jobs impact 4


### of the EPA's proposed clean air power indicates 5


### the potential loss of 52,000 permanent direct 6


### jobs by 2020 in the utility, rail, and coal 7


### sectors due to power plant retirements and the 8


### lost of 167,000 total direct and indirect jobs. 9


### These direct jobs are all highly skilled, 10


### high paying, typically in rural communities 11


### without the opportunities for comparable 12


### employment. These impacts do not consider any of 13


### the job losses associated wi th the closure of 14



### plants due to the rules and other factors. 15


### So with that being said, the EPA's 16


### proposal for increasing the dispatch of natural 17


### gas combined cycle units in addition to the 40 18


### gigawatts of new natural gas combined cycle 19


### capacity that the EP A projects to come on line 20


### from 2020 to 2030 will lead to a significant 21


### increase in natural gas price, well, above the 22

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### EPA's projections. 1


### The price increases will be further 2


### amplified by the LNG export, independent analysis 3


### project that utility gas demand may rise 4



### threefold above the EPA's forecast. 5


### Consumers in energy intensive industries 6


### will bear the brunt of these gas pricing 7



### increases. 8



### We have several recommendations about 9


### what we think the revision to the clean power 10



### plan should be. 11



### The first wou ld be a plan that provides 12


### states with credit for prior CO2 reductions as an 13


### option towards meeting the reasonable national 14


### target for reducing CO2 emissions from the 15


### electrical power sector. 16



### Another would be the EPA's proposal for 17


### major expansion of stat e energy efficiency and 18


### renewable energy programs. They interfere with 19


### the traditional state authority in energy 20


### planning and appear to be well beyond the 21


### Agency's authority under the Clean Air Act. 22

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### The Supreme Court's recent decision on 1


### the GHG permitt ing rule contains strong 2


### cautionary language, but the Court will take a 3


### skeptical view of an overly expansive 4


### interpretation of the EPA's authority to regulate 5



### greenhouse gases. 6


### We also believe that the Agency consider 7


### the proposed rule and building block approach to 8


### set CO2 emission reduction goals based on the 9



### end

- use energy efficiency , i ncreased use of 10



### natural gas and renewable energy as well as other 11



### beyond

- the

- fence emission reduction strateg ies, 12



### rather we urge the EPA to focus the rule only on 13


### option s for reducing emissions within the plant 14



### fence line. 15


### The proposed 6 percent efficiency 16


### improvement for existing coal coal units is a 17


### step in the right direction, but we are doubtful 18



### that all these investments would ever be made 19


### given the rule's negativ e impact on coal 20


### generation and the use source review for making 21


### constraints. And that's all I have for you. 22

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### Thank you. 1



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Gallegos. 2



### Ms. Kelly? 3


### MS. KELLY: My name is Sonny Covin Kelly, 4



### it's K

- e

- l

- l

- y. I live in Greenwood Vil lage, 5


### Colorado. I'm here to speak in support of both 6


### the clean power plan for existing power plants 7


### and the carbon pollution standard for new and 8



### modified sources. 9


### I'm not a scientist or engineer. But I 10


### stay informed and am presenting the following 11



### stat ement in my own words in support of the 12


### regulations proposed by the EPA. I'm also here 13


### for my grandchildren, future grandchildren. 14



### From the horse

- drawn buggies to cars, 15


### from blocks of ice to refrigeration, 16


### refrigerators, from polluted air and water to th e 17


### EPA regulations resulting in cleaner air and 18



### water, the USA has come a long way. 19



### Along that way the EPA has also regulated 20



### vehicle emissions and the use of Freon in 21


### refrigerators, and we are all better off for that 22

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### regulation. 1


### Ironically, the earlies t inventor of 2


### refrigeration was prevented from bringing it to 3


### the consumers by companies that sold blocks of 4


### ice in the north. Now, as in the past, companies 5


### and organizations are trying to stop progress in 6


### climate change, fearful of the loss of jobs and 7


### profits. 8


### However, in the past, as now, progress 9


### and improvement in people's lives are inevitable. 10


### And new jobs and profits, new companies, are 11


### already being created. The challenge we face 12


### with regard to greenhouse gas emissions, however, 13



### is far differen t than anything that we have as a 14


### country and as a global community faced in the 15



### past. 16


### While we have used burning coal to better 17


### people's lives, we to not want to irrevocably 18


### damage our planet in the process of continuing to 19



### allow carbon emissions withou t regulation. 20



### Extreme weather events such as droughts, 21



### forest fires, floods, and other climate

- related 22

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### weather events along with acidification of the 1


### oceans, melting ice caps, rising ocean levels, 2


### and increasing medical problems such as asthma 3



### are well d ocumented. 4


### While I do not have specific solutions to 5


### offer, I want to add my voice to those millions 6


### of other people who realize that the human and 7


### economic costs of global warming far outweighs 8


### any benefits that can be derived from the status 9



### quo. Rega rding economic costs, climate change 10


### due to greenhouse gas emissions is already 11


### costing American taxpayers billions of dollars in 12



### disaster relief. 13



### The Department of Defense has long 14


### recognized that climate change is a security 15



### issue. And civil wars and local conflicts have 16


### already resulted from (sound interference) 17



### brought about

-- that is why regulation of carbon 18


### emissions is necessary. 19


### This is why the United States needs to 20


### take a leading role in regulating carbon 21



### emissions from coal

- fired electric g enerating 22

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### plants, emissions that trap heat and contribute 1


### to global warming. 2



### The role of the United States, if we take 3



### this role on, will enhance the stature of America 4


### in the world and make getting other countries to 5


### cooperate in efforts to take action s that 6


### positively affect climate change much easier. 7


### My mother at 92 years old still feeds the 8


### birds that visit her yard in Houston, Texas, a 9


### part of the country that has experienced severe 10



### drought. She taught me to love the outdoors and 11



### all of the creat ures we found there. Sorry. 12



### My father who has passed away, taught me 13



### to respect and treat all people equally. Because 14



### of those lessons and values from my parents, I am 15



### concerned about all creatures and all people. 16


### As our parish priest told us this last 17


### Sunday, we can take action at the individual 18



### level, at the group level, or at the level where 19


### the world and everything in it is our community. 20



### I hope that we as a country or at the level we 21


### act not selfishly as individuals or only in 22

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### groups that think al ike, but we act on a global 1


### level, starting at home with the regulations, 2



### carbon emissions from coal

- fired generating as a 3


### first step and reversing the global warming that 4



### results from carbon emissions. 5


### As I said, I'm just one person. I came 6



### here today t o let the EPA know that I support the 7


### proposed rulemaking and would support even 8


### broader efforts to curb greenhouse gas emissions. 9


### I started out by talking about change and 10


### bettering people's lives. I strongly support the 11


### EPA's proposed rules which can i mprove the lives 12


### of all Americans and our plant. The time for 13



### action is now. While at times we do hear voices 14



### of critics

-- 15



### MS. SUTIN: Ms. Kelly, I need you to wrap 16



### up. 17



### MS. KELLY:

-- of the EPA

-- okay. 18


### Millions of Americans respect and believe in the 19


### need for the EPA. Thank you for your time and 20


### good work that you've done and will continue to 21



### do. 22

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### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 1



### Okay. If I can have Jack Ihle, and 2



### Michael Hiatt. Mr. Ihle. 3



### MR. IHLE: Yes. 4


### MS. SUTIN: You'll be first. Thank you. 5



### MR. IHLE: Good morning. My name is Jack 6


### Ihle, it's spelled I

- h

- l

- e. I'm director of 7


### environmental policy for Xcel Energy. 8


### Xcel Energy is an investor

- owned gas and 9


### electric utility serving eight states, Colorado, 10


### Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, North Dako ta, 11



### South Dakota, Texas, and Wisconsin. 12



### We have a strong record of clean energy 13


### leadership. I'm proud to say we're the number 14


### one utility provider of wind energy in the United 15



### States for the last decade. We expect to serve 16


### our customers with 27 percent renewable energy by 17



### 2020. 18


### Our energy efficiency programs are the 19


### fifth largest in the nation. In some of our 20



### states these programs offset about 1 percent per 21



### year of new energy and growth. 22

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### The Colorado Clean Air Clean Jobs Act 1


### plan which is cited in th e rule as an example of 2


### state leadership will substantially reduce 3


### conventional pollutants and modernize our 4


### existing coal fleet while also phasing out less 5



### efficient older coal units which will reduce 6



### carbon dioxide emissions. 7


### The plan was initiated to h elp our 8


### company to cost effectively manage several 9


### environmental challenges including this proposed 10



### rule on behalf of our customers. These efforts 11


### lead to CO2 emissions from owned and purchased 12


### generation that will be 30 percent below 2005 13



### levels by 2020. 14


### We've already reduced emissions by 19 15


### percent from 2005. Our clean energy strategy is 16


### an example of how states and utilities can work 17


### together to significantly reduce emissions at the 18



### lowest cost to customers. 19


### We appreciate EPA's outreach efforts and 20


### the rule's flexibility. EPA over the last two 21



### years or so has conducted a tremendous outreach 22

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### effort so far and now that there is a proposed 1


### rule we do take seriously EPA's call for input to 2



### that rule. 3


### We also appreciate the implementation 4


### flexibility the rule offers. In many ways the 5


### rule is quite ambitious but a utility or state 6


### can achieve the targets through a fairly broad 7


### set of compliance activities. That said, we do 8



### have concerns with this rule. 9


### First, EPA should look to incorporate 10



### more fl exibility into the early or interim 11


### targets. More flexible early targets will 12


### mitigate a number of concerns including pressure 13


### on the states to develop ambitious compliance 14


### plans and the pressure on utilities to quickly 15


### implement reduction measures. 16



### Gr eater flexibility will inevitably lower 17



### costs as utilities and other actors have time to 18


### implement reductions more efficiently. 19


### However, our primary concern centers on 20


### the rules' treatment of early actions to reduce 21


### emissions. The rule begins its data ba seline in 22

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### the year 2012 which tends to ignore actions prior 1



### to that date. Further, the target

- setting 2


### process embeds mechanisms, some of which may have 3


### been unintentional that further ignore early 4


### action. Block one ignores any heat rate 5


### improvements alre ady done at coal units. Block 6


### two imparts a more stringent target on states and 7


### utilities that have already developed natural gas 8


### combined cycle plants, or that operate natural 9


### gas combined cycle plants to integrate high 10



### levels of wind. 11


### Block three give s softer targets and 12



### states that have developed renewable energy more 13



### slowly. 14


### Block four does not recognize that 15


### ongoing energy efficiency efforts may be harder 16


### to sustain at high levels in states where 17


### efficiency has already been aggressively pursued 18



### for many years. Further, we need clarifications 19



### in the final rule that ensure obvious reduction 20


### activities such as the ongoing coal plant 21


### retirements happening under the Clean Air Clean 22

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### Jobs Act that the rule cites are unequivocally 1


### recognized toward complia nce with the rule. 2


### Finally, we are also concerned with EPA's 3


### entry into areas of energy policy where it has 4


### limited background such as in renewable energy or 5


### energy efficiency policy. 6



### We will work with EPA and our states to 7


### help create a better policy. Xcel Energy is 8


### committed to making a better rule for our 9


### customers. We are considering policy proposals 10



### that will make the rule more workable, more fair 11


### for the states, utilities and customers paying 12


### for the reduction sought under the rule. 13



### For instance , we'll be seeking better 14


### recognition of early emission reductions done 15


### through state policies and paid for by utility 16



### customers. We want to continue to work with EPA 17



### through the comment process to address the 18


### concerns of the company and the states in whi ch 19



### we operate. 20


### We will be submitting comments in October 21



### toward these ends. So thank you. 22

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### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 1



### Mr. Hiatt? 2


### MR. HIATT: Good morning, my name is 3


### Michael Hiatt, that's spelled H

- i

- a

- t

- t. I am 4


### attorney with Earth Justice here in Denv er, 5



### Colorado. 6



### Earth Justice is a national non

- profit 7


### organization that works to use the power of the 8


### law to promote a healthy climate, a healthy 9


### communities, and to help protect our country's 10


### iconic national heritage. 11


### Existing fossil fuel power plants ar e the 12


### largest contributor to carbon pollution and 13


### climate change in the United States and are 14


### responsible for roughly 40 percent of our 15


### country's greenhouse gas emissions. 16


### Earth Justice supports EPA's historic 17


### efforts to reduce carbon pollution from these 18


### power plants. EPA's clean power plan is a 19


### critical step for transitioning the United States 20



### for a modern 21st century clean energy economy. 21



### But more should be done. 22

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### The clean power plan could be the most 1


### important environmental safeguard in a generati on 2


### if we make the plan as strong as possible and 3



### don't delay. 4


### EPA should require greater and quicker 5


### reductions in carbon pollution than the clean 6


### power plan currently proposes. In the final rule 7


### EPA should require at least a 35 percent 8



### reduction in ca rbon pollution by 2020. EPA's 9


### analysis and experience in the states show that 10


### we can easily make bigger and faster strides from 11


### cutting carbon pollution and there's no time to 12


### waste in the fight against climate change. 13


### First EPA should require addition 14


### reductions in carbon pollution beyond the clean 15


### power plan's relatively modest goals. In some 16


### states EPA's plan will not require any additional 17


### renewable energy or energy efficiency measures 18


### beyond which the states are already achieving or 19



### have already co mmitted to achieve. 20


### For example, here in Colorado our 21


### renewable energy standard requires 30 percent 22

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### renewables by the year 2020. The EPA's proposal 1


### assumes that renewable will make up only 21 2


### percent of Colorado's energy supply in 2030. 3



### Colorado clear ly can and will do more on 4


### renewable energy than EPA assumes in this rule 5


### and the same is true of many other states. 6



### Second, EPA should not delay full 7


### implementation of the rule until 2030. As we've 8


### seen here in Colorado, since passage of our 9



### renewable energy standard back in 2004, when 10


### states get serious about increasing clean energy 11


### and decreasing reliance on dirty fossil fuels, 12


### they can quickly ramp up renewable energy 13


### generation. And there is no need to wait over 15 14


### years for full implementation of this rule. 15



### In addition, EPA should make sure that 16


### the carbon reductions required by the plan are 17


### real and verifiable. EPA has provided the states 18


### a significant level of flexibility which is 19


### important. But we need a good framework to 20



### ensure that a ton of carbon avoided in one state 21



### is treated the same a ton of carbon avoided in 22

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### other states. 1



### EPA should make sure that the final rule 2


### includes clear and fair rules that can be easily 3


### enforced. An ambitious clean power plan is 4


### particularly important here in Colorado. We are 5


### already feeling the effects of climate change. 6


### Just within the past year or two here in Colorado 7


### we've all lived through and experienced historic 8



### wildfire, and historic flood last fall, and 9


### despite the rain today, we're in the midst of a n 10


### historic drought in the western United States 11


### that's continuing to get worse. 12


### Climate change makes these extreme 13



### weather events more frequent and more severe. In 14


### the past year or two it's given us in Colorado an 15


### unsettling glimpse of what lies in our f uture and 16



### our children's future here in Colorado if we fail 17


### to take strong and decisive action to address 18


### climate change today

. 19


### The clean power plan also provides 20


### tremendous opportunities for Colorado. Colorado 21


### is a national leader on renewable energy an d is 22

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### home to many of the leading renewable energy 1


### companies and entrepreneurs in this nation. 2


### As other states increase renewable energy 3


### generation as a result of this rule, Colorado 4


### stands to gain. As a result the clean power plan 5


### will not just be good for Coloradoan by cleaning 6


### up the air we breath, by helping protect the 7



### natural air as we all know and love in this 8


### state, it will also be good for Colorado jobs and 9



### good for Colorado's economy. 10


### So in conclusion Earth Justice supports 11



### EPA's historic actio n on climate change. And we 12


### urge EPA to go even further in addressing carbon 13


### pollution and helping our nation transition to a 14



### modern, clean energy economy. Thanks. 15


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Hiatt. 16



### Next if I can have Aldolfe Sciens (ph) 17



### and Simon Must afa (ph)

. 18


### I apologize if I pronounced your names 19



### wrong. 20



### MS. SCIENS: My name is Lutsa Sciens and 21


### I'm the director of the Latino organizing program 22

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### at Conservation Colorado. 1


### The professional role I represent today 2


### has been very interesting the past six months. I 3


### heard about the urgent need to bring Latinos to 4


### the conservation table, the need to diversify the 5


### movement, and the importance of all communities 6


### having a voice. 7



### However, it is no secret that Latinos are 8


### recognized as a sleeping giant who ha s the 9


### potential to be the deciding factor in elections. 10


### There are roughly 15 million American Latino 11


### youth in the U.S. and 50 percent of all eligible 12


### voters are under 40, while 33 percent are between 13



### the ages of 18 and 34. 14


### We are a young population that will be 15


### around a long time to participate in the 16


### democratic process and that will suffer the 17


### consequences of climate change and the quality of 18



### our air. 19


### In Colorado Latinos are almost 21 percent 20


### of the electorate and by 2050 Latino youth are 21



### expected to comprise 29 percent of the U.S. 22

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### population. 1


### Finally, 66,000 American Latinos turn 18 2


### every month. So as you can see, it is quite 3


### clear why there is a strong interest in engaging 4



### Latinos in environmental issues. 5


### Despite the evident need to engage 6



### Latino s, I was confused as to why people would 7


### tell me that would be a challenge to make Latinos 8



### care about the environment. That Latinos don't 9



### care and that we are too concerned with 10


### immigration and education. That was shocking to 11



### me because a connection that we have as Latinos 12



### to mother earth has embedded itself into our 13


### culture as a way of life, traditions like 14


### hunting, fishing camping, hiking, earth 15


### gathering, farming and ranching have created a 16


### spiritual bond between Latinos and outdoor 17


### heritage. We've al so always been very aware of 18


### how finite resources are, especially when 19


### economic barriers are at play. So to reduce, 20



### recycle, and reuse has always been a cultural 21


### norm amongst Latinos. 22

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### Despite these natural alignments to the 1



### conservation movement, Latinos have also been on 2


### the frontline of environmental impact. 3


### (Audio disruptions.) 4



### MS. SCEINS: The southwest alone is 5


### already experiencing impacts of climate change 6


### affecting the lives and economies of 56 million 7


### people, a population that is expected to inc rease 8


### 68 percent by 2050 to 94 million. 9


### Increased heat, drought, and insect 10


### outbreaks all linked to climate change have 11


### increased wildfires. Declining water supplies 12


### reduce agricultural yields, health impacts in 13


### cities due to heat and flooding and erosi on in 14



### coast areas are additional concerns. 15


### The most vulnerable people in our society 16


### are oftentimes the most impacted by these 17


### effects, our elderly, our children, our low

18



### income communities and communities of color. 19


### Latinos specifically are disproportion ately 20


### impacted by poor air quality, suffering higher 21



### rates of chronic ailments like asthma. Latinos 22

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### are three times more likely to die from asthma 1


### than any other ethnic group in the U.S. ; 68 2


### percent of Latinos in Colorado live in counties 3



### that violate fed eral smog standards ; and 39 4


### percent of Latinos nationwide live within 30 5


### miles of a power plant. 6


### My point is that the standards that we 7


### set for air quality are not only amoral, 8



### economic, health and commonsense issue, but a 9


### social justice issue. It's in teresting to me 10


### that given the huge environmental injustices that 11


### stem from the very important decisions our 12


### country is facing right now to regulate carbon or 13


### not, the most impacted are not here today. 14


### I say interesting and not surprising 15



### because I thin k of what was required of them to 16


### be here today. First of all, that they register 17


### to testify through an online registration which 18


### is offered only in one language. That they take 19


### time off of work to testify for a whole five 20


### minutes. Assuming their work i s flexible enough 21


### to allow that, but that they also bring their 22

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### children or leave them behind somewhere. Given 1



### that it is summertime and most children are at 2



### home. 3


### Finally, that they travel downtown where 4


### we know parking is horrible and go into a federal 5


### building in front of you to testify today. 6


### (Speaking Spanish.) 7


### Those requirements for working

- class 8


### families is like me speaking to you in Spanish. 9


### Simply we speak two different languages. 10


### As you can see, the simple process of 11


### being here today to part icipate in the 12


### decisionmaking process in our country is a 13


### barrier in itself. So I ask you today that you 14


### do not take the environmental justice or 15


### injustices perspective lightly. Just because it 16


### may not be in front of you as rampant as it is 17


### present in ou r communities. 18


### Oftentimes we expect communities to come 19



### to us, to be part of our process and be part of 20


### our movement the way we want them to be, without 21


### actually intending on meeting communities where 22

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### they are, without taking into consideration how 1



### we are already part of the process and the 2



### movement. 3



### Thank you. 4


### MS. SUTIN: Please no clapping. 5


### Ms. Sceins, can you tell me gain, the 6


### name of your organization? 7



### MS. SCEINS: Conservation Colorado. 8



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 9


### If you've arrived into the room la te, 10



### we've asked that people please not clap so that 11


### everyone feels comfortable speaking. Thank you. 12



### Go ahead, Mr. Mustafa. 13



### MR. M O STAFA: Good morning. Thank you 14


### very much for the opportunity to speak today. My 15



### name is Simon M o stafa. I'm a Ph.D. stude nt in 16


### environmental engineering at CU Boulder. I'm 17


### also a fan of the EPA. I think we all love your 18


### greatest states and the Clean Air Act and the 19



### Water Act. So really good stuff. And I'm also 20



### personally grateful because through the EPA star 21


### fellowship I 'm able to be able to school for my 22

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### doctorate here in Boulder, here in Colorado. 1


### So I'm really excited to speak in front 2



### of you today to talk about the clean power plan

. 3


### I think it's a really, really exciting policy 4


### idea. I really like its spirit, I re ally like 5


### its approach, and I would like to say that I feel 6


### it's a little bit limited in scope. And I want 7


### to speak honestly because I think we're all on 8



### the same side on this issue. We all want to 9


### fight the most devastating effects of climate 10



### change thr ough mitigating some the emissions. 11


### For example, I would like to invite you 12


### to a little ambitioning exercise, instead of 13


### thinking of this as a plan to simply reduce 14


### carbon emissions from power plants, what if we 15


### could think of this of this as a way of lim iting 16


### or reducing greenhouse gas emissions from our 17


### energy sector. So conceptually it's not that 18


### different, but in terms of the actual policy 19


### implications, there's very important differences 20



### that will make a world of difference if we're 21


### actually serious a bout fighting climate change 22

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### and not just creating symbolic legislature. 1


### For example, we know or I consider that 2


### the units being used to measure the carbon 3


### intensity like the carbon release during 4


### combustion, it's a limited unit to really 5



### encompass the full effect of greenhouse emissions 6


### and climate change. For example, methane 7


### emissions during natural gas extraction and 8



### transport and offset, some of the greenhouse 9


### gains that you might get from burning natural gas 10


### and this may not be accounted for at le ast in my 11


### interpretation of this policy proposal. 12


### So, I think it would be good to remember 13


### once in a while that natural gas is still a 14



### fossil fuel and as the name indicates, it's 15


### fossil because it belongs in the ground and it's 16



### dead, and we should be look ing forward to new 17



### ideas. 18


### So one potential solution for this will 19


### be instead of using just the carbon emissions at 20


### the combustion we can use CO2 equivalent or some 21


### other unit that better encompasses an ocean of 22

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### greenhouse emissions and also can steady the 1


### entire life cycle of the fuels from extraction, 2


### storage, transport, and finally energy generation 3


### through combustion. 4


### Side note on fracking, we could close 5


### some of those loopholes that are there in some of 6


### the other regulations that will be great. I kn ow 7


### you're busy, but just talking about fracking and 8



### -- I thought it would be very useful to say that. 9


### Another point I wanted to make was that 10


### while most of the environmental problems and 11



### solutions that the EPA deals with are local, 12


### climate change regards a global way of thinking 13


### and about think global, a global kind of 14


### approach. So I think we should also consider our 15


### fossil fuel exports. So we should ask ourselves, 16



### how much are the natural gas and coal

-- is the 17


### natural gas and coal that we're shipping a broad, 18



### how much is that, and how much is that 19


### undermining our efforts to reduce greenhouse 20



### emissions here at home? 21



### We know that stuff is taken from the 22

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### ground, it's getting burned somewhere, and it's 1


### causing the exact same problems globally that 2



### we're try ing to fight here at home. 3



### So its like as if we had a manufacturer 4



### under the Clean Water Act that could increase the 5


### limitation of some pollutant by having somebody 6


### else dump their waste into the ocean for them. 7


### They're just passing along the problem. 8


### In terms of our leadership here in the 9


### U.S., how can we honestly sell or work with other 10


### nations to try to reduce their emissions while we 11


### are the ones selling the fossil fuels to them for 12



### them to burn. You know, it's like Coca

- Cola 13


### telling us that we h ave too much sugar on our 14


### diet. You know, kind of strange. 15


### So here's a modest proposal that might 16


### deal with some of these issues. Maybe we can 17


### include, as part of that carbon budget, that each 18



### state should report and reduce, maybe they can 19



### include there all the stuff that's being 20



### extracted here but burned elsewhere. We know 21


### exactly where that's going, what's going to 22

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### happen to it, and how much CO2 emissions we're 1


### going to generate from that. 2


### So I'm excited about this proposal. I 3



### think it should and it could be bolder. And I 4


### think with both standards and include life cycle 5


### emissions for all greenhouse gases as well as our 6


### expert submissions, we could have a clean and 7


### powerful plant to significantly reduce the 8


### contributions of our energy sector to globa l 9


### climate change and set a path for true energy 10


### independence. That is independence from energy 11


### that is tied to the devastation of our planet. 12


### Thank you very much for your time, 13


### honestly appreciate it. 14



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Mr. Mostafa, do 15


### you mind spe lling your name for the reporter? 16



### MR. MOSTAFA: Yes. Simon is S

- i

- m

- o

- n, 17



### d e l ta on the o. And Mostafa, M

- o

- s

- t

- a

- f

- a. 18



### Thank you. 19



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 20



### Next if we can have Mark O u rada and 21



### Michelle Freear k . Go ahead. 22

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### MR. O U RADA: Great. Thank you. Good 1


### morning, my name is Mark O u rada. I am the 2


### central region Vice President for the American 3


### Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity. Our 4



### members include investor

- owned utilities, rural 5


### cooperatives, coal producers, railroads, 6



### manufacturers that are invo lved in providing the 7


### foregoing reliable electricity from coal. 8


### Thank you for the opportunity to speak 9



### today. 10


### Because of many serious flaws, ACCCE 11


### urges EPA to withdraw its proposal. I will 12


### highlight a few of these flaws briefly in the 13



### short time I ha ve available. 14



### First, the Clean Air Act does not allow 15


### EPA to regulate greenhouse gas emissions from 16


### existing coal

- fired power plants under Section 17



### 111(d) because coal

- fired power plant are already 18


### regulated by EPA under Section 112 of the Clean 19



### Air Act. 20


### Recently Attorneys General from nine 21



### states filed an amicus brief to stop the EPA's 22

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### proposal for this very reason saying that the 1


### proposal, quote, "Violates the literal terms of 2



### the Clean Air Act." 3


### Even if EPA believes it has specific 4


### authority to regula te Section 111(d) allows EPA 5


### to set emission standards based solely on 6



### emission reductions that can be achieved inside 7


### the fence line. However, this proposal requires 8



### substantial reductions outside the fence. 9


### Last year before the proposal was issued, 10



### At torneys General from 12 state warned EPA that 11


### the agency would not have authority to regulate 12



### emissions reductions outside the fence. 13


### Second, EPA's proposal will cost 14


### unacceptable economic impacts including higher 15


### energy prices. ACCCE sponsored extensiv e 16


### analysis of the NRDC proposal which served as a 17


### blueprint of the EPA's proposal. 18


### Our analysis projected, among other 19


### impacts, double digit electricity price increases 20



### in most state and substantial increases in 21


### natural gas prices nationwide. Higher ene rgy 22

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### prices have a disproportionately greater impact 1



### on lower

- income and middle

- income families. 2



### Lower

- income families are especially 3


### vulnerable to higher energy costs because energy 4


### represents a larger portion of their budget and 5



### reduces the amount of inc ome they have to spend 6



### on other necessities. 7


### It is also worth noting that states with 8


### carbon constraints are already experiencing 9


### significantly higher electricity prices. Three 10


### months ago, electricity prices in California were 11


### 17 percent higher than th e national average and 12



### New England states, part of the greenhouse gas 13


### initiative have 52 percent higher electricity 14


### prices. 15


### Third, EPA has proposed to substitute as 16


### judgment for that public utilities commissioners, 17


### utility companies grid operators, and consumers 18


### across the nation, while by presuming the 19


### appropriate amounts of electricity from coal, 20



### natural gas, nuclear and renewables as well as 21


### presuming how much electricity consumers should 22

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### use in each state. In fact, Administrator 1


### McCarthy testified r ecently that EPA wants 2



### consumers to use less energy. 3


### Although the EPA claims states have 4


### flexibility to determine how to meet the EPA 5


### goals, the magnitude of emissions reductions 6



### leave most states little alternative but to 7



### follow the EPA mandates. 8



### Fourth , EPA bases its proposal on flawed 9


### information and assumptions for the four building 10



### blocks that are the basis for each of the state 11


### emissions targets. 12


### And, finally, despite enormous economic 13


### impacts, the proposal will have no meaningful 14



### effect on clima te change because the proposal 15


### will reduce global greenhouse gas emissions by 16


### less than 1 percent. If EPA's own scientific 17



### assessments are correct, the emissions reductions 18


### from this proposal will result in a meaningless 1 19


### percent reduction in atmospheric CO2 20


### concentrations and insignificant reduction in 21



### global average temperatures of two one

- hundredths 22

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### of a degree and a trivial reduction in sea level 1



### rise of one one

- thousandth of an inch, the 2


### thickness of three sheets of paper. 3


### In conclusion, EPA's pro posal has 4


### fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed by simply 5


### changes to it. Instead, we urge the EPA to 6


### withdraw the proposal. 7


### Thank you for the opportunity. 8



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Could you spell 9



### your last name for the record? 10



### MR. OURADA: O

- u

- r

- a

- d

- a

. 11



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Go ahead. 12



### MS. FREEAR K: Good morning. My name is 13



### Michele Freear k . I am the Director of Safety and 14



### Environmental Services for Arizona Electric Power 15


### Cooperative, AEPCO. 16


### AEPCO is an electric generation 17


### cooperative which owns a nd operates Apache 18


### generating station located in southeastern 19


### Arizona, approximately 30 miles east of Benson, 20


### Arizona. This facility is the only generation 21



### owned and operated by AEPCO. 22

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### Apache generating station currently 1



### consists of two coal

- fired stea m units, one 2


### combined cycle steam unit, and three simple cycle 3



### turbines. 4



### AEPCO is a member

- owned, not

- for

- profit 5


### generation cooperative which provides wholesale 6


### power to six rural electric distribution

-- also 7



### not

- for

- profit

-- systems serving end custom ers 8



### in Arizona, California, and New Mexico. Those 9


### members serve approximately 150,000 meters, 10


### mostly residential, who live approximately 33 11



### percent below the federal poverty level and also 12


### serving seven tribes. 13


### AEPCO is concerned that EPA's clean power 14



### plan threatens to undo the work done by Congress 15



### since the 1930s under the Rural Electrification 16


### Act. The Rural Electrification Act helped bring 17


### electricity to many rural areas of the United 18



### States. Most of the rural electrification is the 19



### product of lo cally owned rural electric 20


### cooperatives that borrow funds from the Rural 21



### Electrification Administration to build new lines 22

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### and provide service on a not

- for

- profit basis. 1



### The Rural Electrification Administration 2


### is now the Rural Utility Service and is part of 3


### the U.S. Department of Agriculture. 4


### Since passing the Rural Electrification 5


### Act coops distribute electricity to consumers 6


### through distribution lines that cover more than 7


### 75 percent of the nation's land mass. Given the 8


### importance of rural electric d istribution and 9


### generation to those it serves, AEPCO is concerned 10


### about multiple aspects of EPA's proposed clean 11


### power plan both as it relates specifically to 12


### Arizona and AEPCO, and also more generally as it 13


### relates to cooperatives and small utilities. 14



### B ased on our evaluation of EPA's 15



### documents on development of the state CO2 goal 16


### for Arizona, it appears that EPA contemplates the 17


### complete replacement of Arizona's and AEPCO's 18



### coal

- fired resources by other existing natural 19


### gas combined cycle, NGCC, generati on. This is 20


### problematic for several reasons. 21



### First, it is not clear that this 22

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### generation capacity actually exists. EPA used 1


### gross, not net, generation which overstates 2



### available resource. It is also unclear whether 3


### EPA reduced the generation account fo r reserves, 4



### transmission constraints, transmission losses, 5



### and added related issues. 6



### Second, EPA used an annual average 7


### capacity factor. This capacity may not be 8


### available during peak periods and for operational 9



### reasons coal

- fired units cannot be used 10



### i nterchangeably with natural gas

- fired units for 11


### peaking. 12


### EPA needs to evaluate capacity on a 13


### seasonal, if not hourly basis to determine how 14


### much capacity can effectively be dispatched. Any 15


### such analysis must account for reserves, 16



### transmission constraint s, transmission losses, 17



### and related issues discussed above. 18



### Third, the rule assumes that this 19


### capacity is available for purchase by operators 20


### of existing coal

- fired units. It is not clear 21


### that this is the case or that the rate impacts 22

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### are acceptable. 1



### C urrently our cost to generate from 2


### natural gas is roughly double that of a coal

3


### fired resource. Further, today, over 90 percent 4



### of the energy we supply to our members comes from 5



### coal. This increase in fuel cost alone could 6



### result in a substantial rise in electricity costs 7


### for Arizona rate payers. 8



### Fourth it is not clear that even 9


### switching to NGCC will help AEPCO and similarly 10


### situated cooperatives and small utilities to meet 11



### the goal. 12



### EPA's goal of 702 pounds per megawatt 13



### hour for Arizona is well below the carbon 14


### intensity that AEPCO can achieve at its units due 15


### to their elevation and design even with 16


### efficiency improvements. 17



### It is also not clear that AEPCO can 18


### purchase any existing units that could achieve 19


### this rate. AEPCO is thus forced to rely on 20



### en ergy efficiency and renewable energy. 21


### Unfortunately, under Arizona utility structure 22

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### AEPCO does not participate directly in those 1


### programs, its members do. Under EPA's proposal 2


### it is not clear whether AEPCO can get credit for 3



### that work. 4



### Fifth, AEPCO ne eds to provide more 5


### clarity on how earlier action affect our 6


### obligations. AEPCO is committed under the 7


### regional Hayes program to convert one of our 8



### steam coal

- fired units permanently to natural gas 9



### by December 5th, 2017. 10



### We need a stronger assurance that the 11



### reduction is credible, that it will not be 12



### enough. 13


### The projected costs of the clean power 14



### plan are unreasonable, unaffordable, and 15


### impracticable for AEPCO and more importantly for 16


### the members relying on AEPCO for electricity. 17



### In conclusion we beli eve the EPA should 18


### reevaluate the building block assumptions using 19


### the target reductions for Arizona. Thank you. 20



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Freeark. Can 21



### you spell your name for the court reporter. 22

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### MS. FREEARK: It's F

- r

- e

- e

- a

- r

- k. 1



### MS. SUTIN: Thank yo u. 2


### Next if we can have Joseph Fross and Abby 3



### Crespa. 4


### Mr. Fross will go first. 5


### MR. FROSS: Good morning. My name is 6



### Joey Fross, F

- r

- o

- s

- s. I'm here speaking on 7



### behalf of the International Brotherhood of 8


### Boilermakers, Iron Ship Builders, Blacksmiths, 9



### Fo rgers, and Helpers out of Local Lodge 101 here 10



### in Denver, Colorado. 11



### We are here today because our members are 12


### concerned about the loss of their jobs due to the 13



### EPA proposed clean power plan. The EPA (a) plans 14


### to regulate generation and the use of energy, 15


### removing it from state and voter control. This 16


### use should be left in the hands of taxpaying 17



### voters and not bureaucrats. 18


### As projected in 2009, the EPA plans to 19


### eliminate 35 percent of the coal production by 20



### 2020. That's roughly 40 percent of the coal

21



### f ired generating stations in the United States. 22

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### This drastic reduction translates into 1


### the loss of 52,000 direct jobs with utility 2


### companies and another 167,000 direct and indirect 3


### jobs affecting mainly coal miners and railroads. 4



### This translates into 130 gigawatt reduction in 5



### coal

- generated electricity, that's like 107 times 6


### more energy than it took Doc to send Marty Back 7



### to the Future. 8


### Moving on, 92 of the 133 gigawatts being 9


### generated by facilities already scheduled for 10



### permanent shutdown due to the p assage of the 11


### Mercury Air Toxics Rule. Eliminating these key 12


### components of our infrastructure will most 13


### definitely prove to be costly for the consumer, 14


### especially in the midst of our nuclear 15


### infrastructure aging and their already extended 16


### NRC operating li censes. 17



### With the ever

- increasing demand for 18


### power, and reduction in generating capacity, we 19


### may not be able to meet power demands without 20



### coal

- fired generating stations. 21



### Coal

- fired generating stations are a 22

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### proven effective technology. Today we are 1



### bur ning coal cleaner and more efficiently than 2


### ever. Since 2005, CO2 emissions have reduced by 3



### 13 percent. 4


### EPA has proposed dispatching 40 gigawatts 5


### of natural gas combined cycle units by 2030. 6


### This will lead to significant increases in the 7


### price of natur al gas further amplified by LNG 8


### exports. Thousands of families use natural gas 9


### to heat their homes, skyrocketing natural gas and 10


### electricity costs could meaning freezing to death 11



### in the dark this winter for some families. 12


### We recognize the importance of p rotecting 13



### our environment. As skilled boilermaker 14


### craftsmen we have built our careers on building, 15


### maintaining, upgrading, and retrofitting coal

16


### fired power plants with components that increase 17


### efficiency and reduce emissions. Clean coal 18



### technology, CO2 capture and storage and overall 19


### efficiency can be obtained. Although the 20


### astronomical costs implementing these changes can 21


### take states and utility companies years to plan, 22

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### budget, and formulate an effective plan to reduce 1



### emissions. 2


### For this legislation to be effective and 3


### mutually beneficial, not only for the utility 4


### companies, the EPA, and the consumer, it must be 5


### delayed for several years. Each facility must be 6


### evaluated independently. Reasonable timetables 7


### and emission reduction goals must be set. What 8


### we are doing is not okay. We can do better, we 9



### will do better. Do not demonize this natural 10


### resource due to our society's misuse. 11


### In conclusion, readily available, 12


### abundant, and inexpensive, anthracite, more 13


### commonly known as coal. Ensures our i ndependence 14


### from foreign energy sources and provides well

15


### paying jobs for thousands of skilled American 16



### workers. 17


### Thank you for your time. We'll keep the 18


### lights on for you. 19



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Fross. 20



### Ms. Kresbsbach? 21


### MS. KREBSBACH: My name is A bby 22

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### Krebsbach. I'm the environment director from 1


### Montana Dakota Utilities Company. We appreciate 2


### EPA adding a day in Denver to hear comments on 3



### this rule. 4


### Our company generates, transmits and 5


### distributes electricity to customers in North 6



### Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming. Our 7


### company's most significant concerns are in 8


### regards to errors in building blocks one and two, 9



### but we also have concerns with blocks three and 10



### four. 11


### In building block one, EPA assumes a 6 12


### percent emission rate improvement across all 13



### coal

- fired power plants for implementing future 14


### efficiency improvement projects. 15


### Many of the projects the EPA cites in the 16


### rule have already been done or are being done on 17


### a routine basis at existing power plants. 18



### EPA acknowledges that some o f these 19


### projects have already occurred, but doesn't 20



### factor those reductions into the emissions 21


### targets. Credit should be given for having 22

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### already completed these projects and not hold 1


### states and utilities to more stringent, 2


### unachievable emission rate targ et that does not 3


### represent the best system of emission reduction. 4



### Also EPA overlooks the fact that 5


### pollution control installation such as selective 6


### catalytic production for regional haze compliance 7


### will add significant station service which 8


### negatively im pacts heat rates. For instance our 9


### coal and big stone plants in South Dakota is 10


### installing controls for regional haze and has 11


### already made efficiency improvements mentioned in 12



### the rule but will not be able to achieve a 6 13


### percent heat rate improvement. Th is must be 14



### factored in. 15


### Also we are coal in our Wygen Three in 16


### Wyoming which came on line in 2010, a newer power 17


### plant. Even though that plant was only in 18


### operation for two years as of 2012, which is the 19



### baseline EPA uses for emissions reductions, the 20



### EP A still assumes that Wygen Three will achieve a 21


### 6 percent emission reduction from its 2012 22

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### emission rate, that just doesn't make sense to 1



### us. EPA should exclude newer plants from block 2


### one productions. 3


### In building block two, EPA assumes that 4


### existing nat ural gas combined cycles will be 5


### redispatched to a 70 percent capacity factor with 6


### a corresponding reduction in generation from coal 7



### plants. 8



### In South Dakota there is one coal

- fired 9


### power plant, Big Stone plant, and there is one 10


### natural gas combined cycle, deer creek station. 11


### Big Stone represents a significant base load 12


### resource capacity for all of its coal owners' 13



### customer of which MDU is one of those co

- owners

. 14


### Deer Creek was installed by Basin Electric 15


### Cooperative for that company's own unique load 16



### and customer demand and was never meant to meet a 17


### load reduction from Big Stone. These plats are 18


### committed and dispatched by two separate regional 19


### transmission organizations. We are not aware of 20


### any way to redispatch these units. In a way that 21



### will not com promise the ability for each company 22

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### and transmission operator to reliably serve load. 1


### With Deer Creek beginning operation in 2


### late 2012 and having a 1 percent capacity factor, 3


### EPA's block two redispatch methodology has the 4


### effective backing down Big Stone plant, the only 5



### coal

- fired plant in the state to a 23 percent 6


### capacity factor. 7


### Since Big Stone's minimum operating load 8


### is about 40 percent maximum output, the 23 9


### percent capacity factor envisioned by EPA would 10


### require the unit to be offline at least h alf the 11



### year, unable to serve the energy needs for our 12



### customers. 13



### Also, co

- owners of Big Stone are 14


### investing near $400 million in the regional haze 15


### pollution controls. The redispatch assumption is 16


### not feasible in this case and is expected to 17



### result in re quired replacement generation. 18


### Effectively stranding this asset, including the 19


### investment of regional haze controls. 20


### Due to this projected outcome, we believe 21


### that the remaining useful life of the unit has 22

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### not been considered. For these reasons buildin g 1



### block two should be eliminated from South 2



### Dakota's target. 3



### Block two as well as block three, 4


### renewable generation requirements, and block 5


### four, energy efficiency program requirements are 6


### outside the fence measures. We expect EPA to 7



### encounter legal chal lenges by including these 8


### blocks as best system of emission reductions. We 9


### believe EPA hasn't considered the required cost 10


### to replace existing renewable generation 11


### facilities over time to comply with block three 12


### targets ongoing. We expect legal challenge s 13


### around Clean Air Act enforceability of reductions 14



### under these blocks as well as with multi

- state 15



### compacts that are expected to be needed for 16


### regional plans to be developed. 17


### We also expect that the states will find 18


### it difficult to accept enforcement risk under the 19


### clean air act as they consider relying on 20



### emissions reductions from their renewable 21


### portfolio standards, energy efficiency programs, 22

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### building codes and redispatch. 1


### We plan to submit written comments by 2


### October 16th, and I thank you for your ti me. 3



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Krebsbach. Do 4


### you mind spelling your name for the court 5



### reporter? 6



### MS. KREBSBACH: Yeah, I did that at the 7


### beginning. 8


### MS. SUTIN: Oh, you did. I'm sorry. I 9


### missed it. I apologize. 10


### Next if we can have Percy Deal and 11



### E lizabeth Literal. 12


### Mr. Deal, you'll go first. 13



### MR. DEAL: Thank you. My name is Percey 14


### Deal. I'm a member of an organization

-- a non

15


### profit organization. [Indiscernible] Beautiful 16


### water calling. I'm going to be turning 65 next 17



### month. I'm retired. I live in Black Mesa Region 18


### at the Navajo Reservation about 15 miles south of 19


### Peabody Coal Mine. 20



### I'm here to express my full support for 21



### the clean power plan and I urge you to do more. 22

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### As designated by EPA in response to the 1


### president's climate action pla n for the country. 2


### For this plan to work everyone must 3


### participate, including the Navajo nation. 4



### I want to tell you about my parents' 5


### world prior to the arrival of Peabody and Navajo 6


### generating stations. 7


### My dad used to tell us about there being 8



### plenty of clean water, unpolluted air, abundance 9


### in all the plants and herbs for food and 10


### medicine. My community

-- the community my 11


### parents grew up in were healthy. Disease and 12


### illness were rare. I remember my parents

-- my 13



### mother's garden where she grew corn , squash, 14


### melon, potatoes, beans. Additionally, my parents 15


### had livestock. All of this was enough to provide 16


### my parents and the seven children they raised in 17


### 2004 at the age of 107 months [sic] my dad passed 18


### on. My mother died at the age of 93. My 19



### paren ts' self

- sufficiency lifestyle provided us 20


### with healthy upbringing. 21


### Now, due to depletion of an aquifer, less 22

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### rainfall due to climate change, our culture, 1



### self

- sufficiency has been taken away and 2



### dependence

-- dependency on public aid has 3



### resulted. The change is a direct result of 4


### energy extraction industry established within our 5



### company. 6


### The Navajo Reservation is located in the 7


### Four Corners area. It is surrounded by seven 8


### power plants and mines, two of the seven are on 9


### Navajo land. Now, imagine seve n old clunkers 10


### next to your residence breathing air. Or imagine 11


### breathing in hazardous fumes 24/7 for 50 years. 12


### All of these plants are next to major rivers 13


### presenting a dangerous and contaminant situation. 14


### I understand that EPA is considering the 15


### laying

-- the implementation of carbon pollution 16


### reduction for the Navajo Reservation for several 17



### more years. I want to stress that Navajo land is 18


### already heavily polluted from the number of coal 19


### fossil industry we are experiencing adverse 20



### effects of climate ch ange and depleting of our 21


### precious aquifer. 22

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### We see haze in our sky on daily basis. 1


### The worsening of our environment is contributing 2


### respiratory diseases for the young and old. 3


### This morning there was some discussion 4


### about the rising costs of electricity. Imagine 5


### the rising costs of the health costs. Yet EPA 6


### wants to delay clean power on Navajo. 7


### Additionally our congresswoman from the 8


### state of Arizona has introduced a legislation to 9


### waive 15 federal and state environmental policy 10


### on Navajo in the name o f development. And I 11


### brought you a copy and I would urge the president 12


### of the United States if it gets to his desk to 13


### veto this legislation. If the federal government 14


### allows the delay of clean power and waive policy 15


### for Navajo, you will put us at the sam e level as 16


### China where the is no policy and regulation to 17


### control pollution level within and surrounding 18


### the Navajo there are several national state, and 19


### tribal parks that draws millions of tourists from 20



### all over the world, Grand Canyon, Mylet Valley, 21



### Cany on at the Shay, Navajo National Park, Rainbow 22

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### Bridge and many others are located near and on 1


### the Navajo Reservation. Local government and 2


### businesses depend on these parks while you 3


### Environmental Protection Agency, you are the 4


### Environmental Protection Agen cy, your recent 5



### decision for NGS and bark control is not 6


### protecting the Navajo. While the pollution hays 7


### is being addressed for national park, it is 8


### delayed on Navajo. This is simply another 9


### environmental injustice that our people and our 10



### air is not safe guarded. 11


### The Navajo nation should be pursuing 12


### alternative energy with full support under 13


### federal government instead of allowing the Navajo 14


### to go in the opposite direction. Why is there a 15



### double standard? Let's operate on one standard 16


### including the Navaj o nation. 17


### I want EPA to help me live in the world 18


### like my dad. I want to enjoy breathing in clean 19


### air, drinking good water free of contaminants, 20


### and I want my children and grandchildren to be 21


### part of the healthy community. 22

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### As native American

-- 1



### MS. SU TIN: Mr.

-- 2



### MR. DEAL:

-- we are taught to respect 3



### our mother earth, our father the sun, air, water, 4


### are the most precious resources on earth. Our 5


### belief considers that all living creatures are 6


### our brothers. Life on earth is like a spider 7



### web, when on e web is damaged, it destroys all. 8


### Let us all stop this destruction. May the great 9


### spirit be with you and guide you, thank you. 10


### Also attached to the statement is a photo of my 11


### dad, a photo of my mother holding the corn, and 12



### also the Four Corners area sh owing the various 13


### plants and finally the final photo is my family 14


### including an infant that we were fortunate to 15


### receive recently in the cradle and I'm speaking 16


### on behalf of all the [indiscernible]. Thank you. 17



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Deal. 18



### Go ahead, M s. Literal. 19


### MS. LITERAL: Hi, my name is Liz Literal. 20



### I am currently a graduate student at the 21


### University of Denver and I am in full support of 22

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### the clean power plan in addition to further 1


### action to combat manmade climate change. 2


### In undergraduate studie s I studied 3


### geology and many geologists currently think that 4



### we are in the anthropogenic period of geologic 5


### time, meaning that humans are creating climate 6


### change. And I have a short, short little thing 7



### here. 8


### So that vanishing white man is a prophecy 9



### of t he Hopi and it says that if we disrespect 10


### mother earth in these ways of extracting oil and 11



### gas and coal and all of these resources that 12



### pollute our water and pollute our are then we are 13


### not going to exist anymore. And we are going to 14



### leave a wake of destr uction in everyone else's 15



### midst. 16


### So the only option is to protect our air 17


### and our environment. The greater good is to have 18



### clean air which is connected to water and 19


### everything else in our environment. This is our 20



### life

-- these are our lives that we're t alking 21


### about and we cannot sacrifice that for money or 22

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### anything else. 1



### Thank you. 2


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Literal. 3


### Next if we can have Doug Grandt and 4



### Brenton Dolf. Is Brenton Dolf here? 5



### Go ahead, Mr. Grandt. 6


### MR. GRANDT: Set my timer here. Than k 7


### you for having this forum. I drove her with my 8


### friend from Lincoln, Nebraska. I thought it was 9


### important to be here instead of just submitting a 10


### written testimony. I will e

- mail you my 11


### testimony. 12


### I've heard a lot of very myopic 13



### statements here. As an engineer and scientist 14


### having been trained as an industrial engineer and 15


### petroleum engineer, I've always used the 16


### scientific method and I've always taken a global 17


### long view of holistic and system approach. 18


### Let me just tell you a little bit about 19



### my career, I'm retired. In 1970 I started 20


### working for probably the world's largest and most 21


### profitable oil company, doing computer 22

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### simulations of an oil reservoir up in Alaska 1



### called Prudhoe Bay. Throughout my career

-- by 2


### the way, that job lasted about two years when I 3


### realized I really wasn't an oil man. 4


### And I spent the next several years doing 5


### corporate planning and industrial engineering for 6


### another very profitable and very large ocean 7


### transportation cargo company. My job was to 8


### maximize profits. Tha t career lasted about 34 9


### years, various different management jobs. And I 10



### had a wake

- up call ten years ago and I decided to 11


### take my skills and use those skills to maximize 12


### life, to protect life, to protect humanity. 13


### And long story short, I ended up workin g 14



### for the California Environmental Protection 15


### Agency in the Air Resources Board, initially 16


### reducing diesel pollution from buses and boats in 17


### harbors and ultimately implementing the 18


### California Global Warming Solutions Act of 2006. 19



### Arnold Schwarzenegger , le gacy. 20


### I retired on the first day of spring two 21


### years ago. And I'm in retirement, and I became 22

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### basically a full

- time activist and I'm associated 1


### with a lot of different groups, too numerous to 2


### mention, but they include Farsas Blockade, 3



### Susan's Planet Lobb y, Climate Reality Project, 4



### and many others. 5



### So I want to thank you, EPA, and I want 6


### to thank President Obama for taking the 7


### initiative in this proposed rule. Up to this 8


### point our government, namely our Congress has so 9


### far failed us citizens in this rega rd. But I 10



### applaud the clean power plan proposed rule. I 11



### endorse it. However, I have one reservation and 12


### that shortcoming, I have a solution I'm going to 13


### discuss in a second, but I'm going to invoke the 14


### virtual presence of free respected authorities, 15



### cli mate authorities, Dr. James Hanson who I met 16


### on April 15th, 2008; Dr. Ra jendra Pach auri who I 17



### met on June 27th, 2008; and George Woodwell, who 18


### I met on May 15th. Their messages are similar 19


### when it comes down to the urgency of beginning 20


### reducing greenhouse gases and the emissions 21


### thereof quickly. Quickly. Urgency. 22

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### The proposed rule commits us to, I think, 1



### a disastrous timeframe in that it does not 2


### consider the leakage of methane

-- and I'm not 3



### sure that it includes the short

- term climate 4


### forcing of metha ne. I've looked through Appendix 5


### 3 at length and I cannot find anything that 6


### definitively mentions leakage or the short term 7


### global forcing. 8



### In the section 6 of the main document, 9



### the last paragraph of 6(c)(2)(a) there are two 10



### mentions of

-- two of the seven mentions in the 11


### document and I'm going to read just very quickly. 12


### "This analysis indicated that any net impacts 13


### from methane emissions are likely to small 14


### compared to the CO2 emissions reduction impacts 15


### of shifting power generation from coal

- fired 16


### steam EGU to NGCC units." It doesn't appear that 17


### the state of the science in terms of leakage of 18


### methane from gas wells has been incorporated. 19


### I want to very quickly quote Dr. Pach auri 20


### who said to me on June 27th "hat we must begin 21


### reducing greenhouse ga s emissions by 2012." 22

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### We're past that time. 1



### On May 15th, 2009, Dr. Woodwell told me, 2


### "We must abandon our reliance on the burning of 3



### carbon

- based fuels. We are poisoning the 4



### planet." 5



### And on December 13th, it looks like I've 6


### run out of time, I'll just very quickly read. 7


### Dr. Hanson said in a document that they published 8



### that "The current emissions rate would need to 9


### decrease 6 percent per year, storage in the 10


### biosphere and soil, reforestation and improved 11


### agriculture and forestry practices are necessar y 12


### to help bring down CO2. We need to stabilize 13



### human

- made non

- CO2 climate forcings and we need 14


### to phase out gas and oil." 15



### I have a chart that I will include that 16


### shows what the German advisory council on global 17


### climate says we need to do. This supports Dr. 18


### Hanson. We need to start reducing now and we 19


### need to start reducing quickly. Thank you. 20



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Grandt. 21


### Do you mind spelling your last name for 22

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### the Court reporter. 1



### MR. GRANDT: G

- r

- a

- n

- d

- t. 2


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Did Brenton D olf 3


### come into the room? Mr. Dolf and Greg Wilson, if 4


### you'll come up? I'm sorry, George Wilson. I 5


### apologize. 6


### Mr. Dolf, you'll go first. 7



### MR. DOLF: Okay. I'm a child of the 8


### millennium. I've grown up pretty much my whole 9



### life here in Colorado. I've grown up in Denver, 10


### I am used to pretty much the pollution all around 11


### us all the time. I've grown up with the

-- as 12


### pretty much being the norm, not being informed to 13


### anyone that this is how it is and this is how it 14


### will stay. That's always been a problem to me. 15


### That nothing out there can be informed to our 16


### children. Our children nowadays are being told 17


### that Freddie the Friendly Fracasaurus is good, 18


### it's natural. I find that offensive as a person 19


### that believes in global warming. 20



### My mom works for a sch ool. She's a 21



### teacher. And she told me that they had a guy 22

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### coming in pro

- fracking, teaching the children 1



### that they

-- that fracking was okay. That it's 2


### not polluting our air, that it's not causing 3



### earthquakes to pretty much collapse the ground 4



### and as oil companies call it, settling. This is 5


### a very disturbing issue to me. 6


### If our children are our destiny, then 7


### what are we teaching them? Where are they going 8


### to take our world if they're misinformed? 9


### They're going to drive it right into the ground. 10



### And I appreciate you guys with this 11


### carbon act, but I honestly think that this is not 12


### even close to the beginning of what you guys can 13



### and will do. 14


### I believe that the petitions that are 15


### going out there, I was a participant in '88 and 16


### '89 of getting that pass ed. They were worded 17


### very, very vaguely despite how you want to say 18


### it, they were put well just like the carbon 19


### emissions act how it said that they were put, it 20



### would push back all new by 30 percent and you got 21


### to come back and do another act that said yo u 22

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### would push back existing, that's what they're 1


### doing for the fracking. It would push back 2


### fracking 2,000 feet, that's all new ones. They 3


### said quote/unquote, "if not misinforming that it 4



### would push them back by 70 percent of those." 5



### That's not true. 6



### I think that what we're doing right now 7


### is we're just watching it happen. All the money 8


### that we're putting out there to do tests and 9


### stuff like that, we already see where our world's 10



### at. We see what the damage has caused. Stop 11


### testing it, do something ab out it, turn it around 12



### and be more apt to reach out for the other 13


### renewable energies because I've sat and talked 14


### with people, many people, that have said that 15


### they know of other energies out there. 16


### Australia is doing fusion right now. 17



### It's called star sc ientific. They're replacing 18



### all coal

- fired power plants with this. I mean, 19


### if there's other things out there, we need to 20


### start looking for it. I mean, what happened to 21


### the Taurus project? Taurus project just throw 22

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### that out there. There's a combustion person that 1


### I talked to in Greeley, he said that he came and 2


### talked to you guys. You guys just looked at him 3


### like he was crazy. And I want to ask that with 4


### you guys being the EPA to

-- because I know that 5


### you guys are doing a good job, but I want to see 6


### where the progress is at. Like, I would like to 7


### see if you guys put something in print, or if you 8



### get a ballot passed, I want to see what systems 9


### out there that are building that's renewable. I 10



### want to see proof of that. Thank you. 11



### MS. SUTIN: Thank yo u, Mr. Dolf. I have 12


### a clarifying question for you. 13



### MR. DOLF: Yeah. 14


### MS. SUTIN: You mentioned petitions that 15


### you were involved in, can you just be a little 16


### bit more specific about what those were so we 17



### know? 18



### MR. DOLF: '88 and '89, '88 was an 19



### environme ntal bill, it was saying that us as 20


### Coloradoans have the right to clean air and clean 21



### water and that the state or local governments 22

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### cannot take that right away from us. However, 1


### like they had a law that was lower than ours 2



### then, they would make that all t he more 3


### restrictive so that they couldn't destroy clean 4



### air, the water, the nature or scenic values. And 5



### then the second one was '89, that one was for 6


### pushback all new fracking wells 2,000 feet unless 7



### -- which is only a quarter of a mile

-- so that's 8



### pret ty much giving oil companies the permission 9


### to frack on land a quarter of a mile when they go 10


### over 3,000 feet, that's, you know, we're giving 11



### them an extra thousand feet to go under your 12



### house and pass. 13



### MS. SUTIN: Great. Thank you. That's 14



### very helpful. 15



### MR. DOLF: Yeah, thank you. 16



### MS. SUTIN: Mr. Wilson? 17


### MR. WILSON: Good morning. My name is 18


### George Wilson, W

- i

- l

- s

- o

- n. I'm a senior 19


### assistant business manager for the International 20



### Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 111 here 21



### in Denver. I have a satellite office over in the 22

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### Craig area on the western slope. That valley 1


### there is mostly living on the fact that they 2



### three coal mines and two power plants or else 3



### 37,000 people would be out of work. 4



### Myself and other members of Local 111 are 5



### very wo rried about the effects of the EPA's 6


### proposed clean power plant on electricity prices, 7


### reliability and jobs. Here in Colorado we have 8


### been painfully aware of what happens when an 9


### electricity provider moves away from inexpensive, 10



### coal

- generated power too q uickly. So our 11


### experience is real, a real live test case and I 12


### urge the EPA to pay attention to this. As a 13


### result of Colorado's renewable portfolio 14


### standards, the state is moving away from coal and 15



### towards natural gas and renewables. Some parts 16



### of the s tate, Pueblo, in particular have been

-- 17


### I've seen electric prices rise 26 percent so far. 18


### That may not seem like a problem to wealthier 19


### parts of the state, but in Pueblo where the 20


### poverty rate is at 18.1 percent, the pain for 21


### those people is very real. 22

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### An article that appeared just last week 1


### in the Washington Post entitled how not to shut 2


### down coal plants, speaks to the pain of Sharon 3


### Garcia, who is a single mother in Pueblo and 4



### operates a day care there and her troubles and 5


### problems with trying to pay her electric bills. 6


### Her electric provider, Black Hills 7


### Energy, chose to replace nearly all of its 8


### inexpensive coal generation with gas over a short 9


### period of time. The result was 26 percent 10



### increase in electric rates with more to come with 11



### the addition o f another gas peaking unit that 12


### they want to build and they'll pass that cost 13


### right on to the consumers down there also. 14


### Local 111 is not the only group who is 15


### worried about the high cost of switching to 16


### mostly one fuel in this country. Last week IHS 17



### Inc orporated, an industry data custom software 18


### and consulting service company released a study 19


### called the value of U.S. power supply diversity. 20


### In a nutshell the report said, "It's not prudent 21


### to put all your eggs in one basket. The least 22

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### inexpensive, most reliable electricity delivery 1


### system is one that uses a diverse mixture of 2



### fuels." Unfortunately the clean power plan 3



### openly calls for the use of more natural gas 4


### generation at the expense of coal. EPA would be 5



### wise to read this. It is a 56

- page report, and 6



### consider the advice of IHS. 7


### So how much coal generation will the 8



### clean power plan close ? The EPA's own members 9


### state that 41 to 49,000 megawatts of coal will be 10


### closed. Also the mercury and air toxic standards 11


### which spell MATS, is expected to close 12


### approximately 56,000 megawatts of coal 13


### generation. Combined, the clean power plan and 14


### MATS will close approximately 40 percent of 15


### today's coal fleet, leading to a loss of fuel 16


### diversity, massive increases of consumer prices, 17


### less reliability and security of electrical grid 18


### and the loss of approximately 400,000 jobs. 19


### As for all the trouble, the loss of jobs, 20


### the loss of fuel diversity, increase in prices, 21


### and the pain felt like people like Sharon Garcia, 22

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### you would think that the clean power plan would 1



### res ult in meaningful reductions in U.S. CO2 2


### emissions. Unfortunately, our members and the 3


### Coloradoans would be very disappointed with the 4


### clean power plan to have almost no impact on CO2 5


### emissions that contribute to global climate 6



### change. 7



### There's a graph included in my testimony 8


### and I turned these into the registration, shows 9


### the problem is not with the United States, whose 10



### CO2 emissions have been flat since 1990, but 11



### rather the rest of the world whose CO2 emissions 12


### have risen approximately 44 percent in t he last 13



### 24 years. 14


### It is not possible for the United States 15


### to solve the world's global warming problems on 16


### its own. Any meaningful attempt to address 17


### global greenhouse gas emissions must incorporate 18


### American's trading partners, China and India in 19


### partic ular since they have no emissions controls 20


### on any of their coal generating stations. 21



### The EPA and the administration should 22

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### return to the drawing board and rethink the clean 1


### power plan. The United States cannot afford the 2


### loss of of fuel diversity, incre ased prices, the 3


### threat of reliability of the electric grid or the 4


### job losses that will be caused by the clean power 5



### plan. 6



### Thank you. 7


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Wilson. 8



### MR. WILSON: And they have the graph. 9



### MS. SUTIN: Great. Thank you. 10



### Next if we can have Katy Raitz, and Matt 11



### App elbaum

. 12


### MS. RAITZ: My last name is spelled R

- a

13



### i

- t

- z. Thank you so much for hosting this 14


### hearing today and thank you for giving me the 15


### opportunity to come out and speak as a member of 16


### the community and as a college stud ent. 17


### So I went to college knowing that I 18


### wanted to work on social justice. I majored in 19


### gender studies and in ethnic studies because I 20


### wanted to help get rid of sexism in our community 21


### and racism. And that's still so important to me. 22

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### But I never consi dered myself an 1


### environmentalist. I always thought that fighting 2


### for the environment was for people that had the 3


### privilege to not deal with injustice in their 4


### everyday lives and that people needed solutions 5


### in the here and now. But then I met a person 6



### na med Risalla Hahn. Risalla is a photographer, 7


### activist, geologist, and aquaponic social 8



### entrepreneur. And he's from Bangladesh. 9


### Risalla and I lived together at a social 10


### entrepreneurship incubator and through him I 11


### realized how completely inextricable 12



### e nvironmental justice and social justice are. 13



### Risalla and ten million other members of 14


### his community are at risk of being flooded by 15


### rising sea levels within the next 20 to 30 years. 16


### Risalla along with the other billions of members 17


### of our global populati on, the global south and 18


### the poorest people in our community are the ones 19


### that are most devastatingly and most immediately 20


### impacted by climate change. And that is what 21



### made me act. That's what made me realize that 22

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### I'm an environmentalist and that I have a duty to 1


### work on climate change just as I have a duty to 2


### work on injustices that we see in our regular 3



### social interactions. They're not inextricable. 4



### They're late 5


### But then I started thinking about it. 6


### And I'm from Colorado Springs, and while I was 7



### out of town, the Waldo Canyon fire happened. And 8


### then the next year the Black Forest fire 9



### happened. And I was so lucky to be spared. And 10


### though my friends lost houses in both of those 11


### fires, my family was fine. We didn't lose 12


### anything. And we were able t o support our 13



### friends in their time of need. 14


### And then last year while I was living in 15


### Boulder, Colorado, we experienced the 500

- year 16


### flood. And I was really lucky to be living 17


### really high up in the foothills. So I didn't 18


### experience any flooding. I wa s lucky. And I saw 19


### the devastation all around my community. Some of 20


### the most affluent people in our state were 21


### really, really negatively impacted by that flood 22

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### and lost a lot, and went through a lot of 1



### emotional trauma. 2


### And I work at a high school in La fayette, 3


### Colorado, Centaras High School. And two students 4


### that graduated year before that died in that 5



### flood. So I started to realize that it's not 6


### even just the people out far away from the 7


### communities that I am so privileged to get to 8



### live in, but it's even the people that we think 9


### of ourselves as relatively insulated from social 10


### and environmental injustice. We're not

-- and so 11


### what I'm here today to talk about is how lucky 12


### can we be? How lucky can I be? I'm already in a 13


### really insulated privileged p osition in our 14


### society and still I've seen so many people right 15


### around me be so devastated by climate change. So 16


### I'm thanking you here today for the work that you 17


### all at the EPA have done in proposing these 18


### standards, urging you to move forward and take 19



### t he next step and also asking you to just 20


### remember the public's good and that we are all at 21


### risk of being hurt by climate change and 22

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### therefore we must all be in this together. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 3



### Mr. App elbaum ? 4



### MR. APP ELBAUM : Yes, thank you. I'm 5



### Matthew App e lb aum . I'm the Mayor of the City of 6



### Boulder, Colorado. 7


### I'd like to focus my comments on how 8


### climate change is impacting cities both locally 9



### and around the country and what we as people who 10


### are running those cities are trying to do about 11


### it, and the costs we are incurring both now and 12



### in the future. 13



### So Boulder, as you know, suffered a 14


### serious flood event last year running into the 15


### tune tens of millions of dollars in public and 16


### private damage. The surrounding areas, the 17



### damage wa s in the hundreds of millions of 18



### dollars. Prior to that there were serious fires 19


### to the west of us, and prior to that drought 20



### events. We expect all three of those to 21


### continue. We expect all of them to be of greater 22

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### severity in the future and of more fre quency in 1



### the future. That is what the science tells us, 2



### there is no doubt that that is the case. 3


### Cities like ours are really front and 4



### center in this issue. Cities are the closest to 5


### the people and the ones that have to deal with 6


### the implications the impacts. It is not just 7



### costs. There are all sorts of social issues 8


### involved. There are very practical issues 9


### involved, logistical issues involved. 10


### Boulder has long been working on climate 11


### change, mitigation and adaptation techniques for 12



### as long as I can remember. We were one of the 13


### leaders in that. We have put our money where our 14


### mouths are. We have spent tens of millions of 15


### dollars in various ways in order to try to 16


### mitigate the impacts and to try to better adapt 17



### and become more resilient. In fa ct, we were 18


### recognized as such by the Rockefeller Foundation 19


### being named one of the 100 resilient cities 20


### across the entire world recently. 21



### Our citizens were the first, and I 22

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### believe only to impose upon themselves a carbon 1



### tax, a very small tax, not meant to change 2


### behaviors, but meant to give us some money in 3


### order to start working on some of these issues. 4



### They then agreed to tax themselves even more so 5


### that we could look at municipalizing our electric 6



### power system. And that has relevance because one 7



### of the things that drove us to that, and that's a 8


### pretty extreme concept was taking a look at what 9


### is practical and what really makes a difference 10


### in mitigation efforts. 11



### And so we looked at all the efforts we 12


### could do, energy efficiency, and transportation, 13


### and we're leaders in that, we've done a great 14


### job, we have many programs that have been 15


### recognized nationwide, and yet they don't move 16



### the needle far enough. And the reason they don't 17



### is because at least in Boulder and this is true 18


### in many communities, mo st of our greenhouse gas 19



### emissions come from electric use and most of our 20


### electric power comes from burning coal from our 21



### investor

- owned utility. And unless and until we 22

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### deal with that, we can't make nearly enough of a 1


### difference. We'll do everything we can, I assure 2


### you, we will spend lots of money. But we can't 3


### make enough of a difference. And so at least in 4


### Colorado our options are limited to really one, 5


### which is to try to escape from the current 6


### regulatory system, go it on our own and obtain 7



### power f rom the market. 8


### And I think it's important to note, 9



### because a lot of economic issues have been 10


### raised, yes, there will be some economic 11


### disruption as we move forward with reducing our 12


### reliance on fossil fuels, and particularly coal. 13



### But there is also h uge opportunity for 14



### economic benefits as well. And we see that and 15



### that was one of the arguments we made that our 16


### voters agreed with; that there is huge economic 17


### opportunity. 18


### I would also say that the economic 19


### disruption, painful though it may be in som e 20


### places, is dwarfed massively by the costs of 21


### climate change and the impacts of them. 22

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### The other thing I want to say, I see my 1


### time is almost up, is at the national level I 2


### serve in the National League of Cities Policy 3


### Committee on Energy, Environment and Natural 4



### Resources, and in fact, I chaired that committee 5



### last year. So last year we began to look as a 6


### national organization at in fact this very issue, 7


### climate change, adaptation and mitigation and 8


### we're continuing that investigation this year. 9



### And wha t we discovered is that cities all over 10


### the country are realizing just how critical an 11


### issue this is. This transcends politics. That 12


### surprised me a little bit. Cities in states that 13


### are not noted for their, let's say, progressive 14



### stands on this issue we re every bit as concerned, 15


### every bit as interested, every bit as active, 16


### every bit out there spending money on mitigation 17


### strategies, out there spending money on 18


### adaptations and strategies, out there working on 19


### becoming more resilient communities because t hey 20


### understand what's coming. 21


### So please proceed. This is frankly way 22

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### too little, way too late, but at this point 1


### everything we do is way too little and way too 2



### late. Nonetheless, we have to start somewhere. 3


### Please continue with this process. Please 4



### co ntinue with this plan, if anything, make it 5


### more powerful, make it a stronger statement in 6


### how we're going to approach the most important 7



### challenge we face for the next

-- well, for as 8


### long as we can foresee, I think. Thanks so much. 9



### MS. SUTIN: Thank yo u, Mr. Appelbaum. Do 10


### you mind spelling your name for the court 11



### reporter. 12


### MR. APPELBAUM: Sure, it's Appelbaum is 13



### A

- p

- p

- e

- l

- b as in boy a

- u

- m. Thank you. 14



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 15


### Next if we can have Katy Laughlin 16


### Reynolds and Ellen Plane. Ms. Laughlin

- Reynolds. 17



### That's you. 18



### MS. LAUGHLIN

- REYNOLDS: Do you want me to 19



### spell the last name? 20



### MS. SUTIN: Please? 21



### MS. LAUGHLIN

- REYNOLDS: It's L

- a

- u

- g

- h

- l

22

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### i

- n hyphen R

- e

- y

- n

- o

- l

- d

- s. 1


### So, good afternoon, my name is Katy 2


### Laughlin

- Reynolds. Just want to start by saying 3


### thank you for taking the time to hear our public 4


### testimonies regarding the clean power plan. It 5


### is now abundantly clear that global warming has 6


### serious implications, not just for the 7



### environment, but for our health. These health 8


### implications are especially serious for children. 9



### As an educator and a concerned citizen, I 10



### care very much about the health and well

- being of 11



### children now and in the future. 12


### I worry that because carbon emissions are 13


### currently unregulated in our nation, children 14



### will cont inue to be directly affected by global 15


### warming pollution, especially children who suffer 16


### from asthma and other respiratory

- related 17



### illnesses. 18



### Our children deserve to breathe clean 19


### healthy air. Unfortunately children with 20


### respiratory illnesses aren't the only people at 21



### risk. As severe weather events like extreme heat 22

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### and drought continue to become that norm due to 1


### global warming and pollution, children and the 2


### elderly are more susceptible to heat

- related 3


### illnesses such as dehydration, heat stroke, and 4



### eve n death. 5


### Medical science is telling us that the 6


### health of our communities is already being 7


### impacted by climate change. Not something we 8


### have the power to change. To me it's 9


### irresponsible to have the ability to solve this 10



### issue now and to not take immedi ate action. 11



### I am confident that we can cut carbon 12


### emissions that cause global warming pollution by 13


### implementing the clean power plan and I am 14


### certain this plan will positively impact the 15



### health of our environment and will better the 16



### future for our nation' s children. 17


### In my hour of hearing testimonies here 18


### this morning, I've heard a lot of talk about 19



### money and I understand that we're a money

20


### oriented society, but it is hard, if not 21


### impossible, to put a price on our children's 22

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### health. After all, our childre n are our future 1


### and their health is priceless. 2


### Again, thank you for your time. 3



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 4



### Ms. Plane? 5


### MS. PLANE: My name is Ellen Plane. My 6


### last name is spelled P

- l

- a

- n

- e. 7


### My name is Ellen Plane and I am a 8



### supporter of the clean power plan. Many people 9


### who testify here will enumerate the various 10


### reasons why the clean power plan is essential for 11


### the health and safety of people here in Colorado 12



### and across the United States. I wholeheartedly 13


### agree that these are important reasons to cle an 14



### up our coal

- fired power plants. But the effects 15


### of carbon pollution and climate change are not 16


### only being felt here. They are felt around the 17



### world. 18



### American's dirtiest coal

- fired power 19


### plants while allowing American's to use far more 20



### energy than we need to live, are forcing the 21


### externalities of our lifestyle on people in 22

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### developing nations. These people are totally 1


### unprepared to deal with rising sea level and more 2


### intense storm events. By burning coal 3


### inefficiently here, we are simply sending the 4



### t rue cost of our energy abroad, placing it 5



### squarely on the shoulders of people who have very 6


### little responsibility for global climate change. 7



### As a global leader we must assume the 8


### responsibility for our carbon and our power 9



### plants. The proposed clean pow er plan is a great 10


### step in the right direction. 11


### The clean power plan has the ability not 12


### only to positively impact humans around the 13



### world, but ecosystems as well. 14


### I am a college student and biology major 15


### and I have spent the last three years studying 16



### t he effects of climate change on earth's 17


### ecosystems. I am truly alarmed that rising 18


### global temperatures as well as habitat 19


### destruction are rapidly accelerating rates of 20


### species' extinction worldwide. 21


### Climate change caused by the reckless 22

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### burning of foss il fuels is directly contributing 1



### to this trend and we cannot continue to live this 2


### way while thousands of species go extinct each 3



### year. 4


### Biodiversity, while valuable on its own, 5


### is also valuable to us for it provides us with 6


### ecosystem services like wate r purification, 7


### nutrient cycling and protection for extreme 8



### weather events. 9


### As a diver I've had the opportunity to 10



### see first

- hand what carbon pollution in the 11


### atmosphere is doing to one of the most 12


### biologically rich ecosystems on earth, the coral 13



### reefs. According to a number of ecological 14


### studies when atmospheric CO2 levels reach 480 15


### parts per million coral reefs can no longer form 16


### calcium carbonate because the pH of the ocean is 17


### too low. This means a loss not only of coral 18


### species, but of thousands of other species that 19


### rely on coral reefs to survive. 20



### If we continue to burn coal and fossil 21


### fuels without regulation, this carbon dioxide 22

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### threshold will be reached far too soon. 1


### Passing the clean power plan and future 2


### regulations like it is the best way to try to 3


### prolong the lives our coral reefs. 4


### The most amazing things that I ever had 5


### an opportunity to see have been under water and I 6


### want my children to be able to see them too. 7


### We are presented with an opportunity to 8



### not only help ourselves, but help the other 9


### people, plants, and animals that we have the 10


### honor of sharing this planet with. There is 11


### ample evidence that the jobs that are dependent 12


### on fossil fuels and old power production 13


### technologies are not the high quality jobs that 14



### the new energy eco nomy can provide. 15


### Yes, the government needs to provide 16


### cleaning opportunities and incentives to help 17


### impacted community adjust to the economics of new 18


### technologies. But the cost of continuing to 19


### pollute are far higher than the cost of managing 20


### these impa cts on communities. 21


### Regulating emissions from existing power 22

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### plants is the most efficient way to tackle the 1


### threat of climate change. We can no longer 2


### continue burning coal, business as usual, while 3


### populations are displaced by rising sea levels 4



### and eart h's coral reefs crumble away. 5



### America's leaders should take 6


### responsibility for out contributions to global 7


### climate change by supporting the clean power 8



### plan. Thank you. 9



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Plane. You 10



### can both be seated. 11



### Next if we can have Robe rt Castilino and 12


### Kaitlyn Seeley. Mr. Castilino? Okay. Go ahead, 13



### Ms. Seeley. 14


### MS. SEELEY: Hi, my name is Kaitlyn 15


### Seeley. Thank you for taking some time today to 16



### talk to us about the clean power plan. 17


### I was born and raised in Colorado, grew 18


### up spendin g winters skiing and snowboarding in El 19


### Dora and Winter Park. Spent summers hiking and 20


### camping. And after leaving the state for a few 21


### years, to realize just how great it was, moved 22

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### back here about three years ago to settle down 1



### and live here for the rest of my life , I hope. \ 2



### And then last summer when we had such 3


### extreme fires going on throughout that state, and 4



### then almost a year ago now, actually the say of 5


### my wedding, when we had our extreme flooding that 6



### started. I started to realize that the life th at 7


### I experienced growing up here in Colorado and the 8


### natural resources that I had come to appreciate 9


### were definitely at risk. And t his extreme 10


### weather is in no question to me because of the 11


### global warming that's being caused across the 12



### world because of th e carbon pollution. 13


### So to me the clean power plan is just 14


### such an important opportunity for us to take a 15


### step in the right direction to curb global 16


### warming and pollution so that we can hopefully 17


### provide a better world and a better future. As 18



### I'm startin g to think about having kids and 19


### wanting them to have similar experiences that I 20


### had growing up here in Colorado, I just think 21


### that attacking global warming now while we still 22

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### have a chance to return to a world that we used 1


### to be able to enjoy, the snow, a nd the mountains 2



### in the winter, and the beautiful outdoors in the 3


### summer is just critical. 4


### And so I'm here to voice my support for 5



### the clean power plan. Thank you. 6



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Seeley. So 7


### you mind spelling your last name? 8



### MS. SEELEY: It's S

- e

- e

- l

- e

- y. 9


### MS. SUTIN: Robert Castileno, have you 10



### come in? 11



### (No response.) 12



### MS. SUTIN: Okay. Well, we'll pause for 13


### a few minutes. We're waiting for more speakers 14



### to arrive. So we will take a ten

- minute break 15



### unless we have anymore speakers. 16


### Okay. We will take a ten to 15 minute 17


### break and we'll start up again. Thank you. 18


### (Brief recess taken at 12:15 p.m.) 19



### (Record resumes at 12:29 p.m.) 20



### MS. SUTIN: Okay. We're going to get 21


### started again. Is Robert Castelino here? 22

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### (No response.) 1



### MS. SU TIN: Still not here. Okay. Then 2



### can I have Matt Reed and Joe Ruff. Are you Mr. 3



### Reed? 4



### MR. REED : I'm Mr. Reed. 5


### MS. SUTIN: Okay. You'll go first. 6



### MR. REED: Hello, my name is Matt Reed. 7


### I live in Englewood, Colorado. I come out today 8


### to testify in support of the clean power plan. 9


### Growing up in rural Runninson County, out 10



### on Colorado's western slope, I developed a love 11


### and appreciation for healthy forests, snowy 12


### mountains, flowing rivers, diverse wildlife, 13


### clean air and productive natural ecosyst ems. 14



### These resources are vital to our social 15



### and economic well

- being. In fact, these natural 16


### attributes are why many people live in and visit 17



### the state and serve as the foundation for our 18


### productive economy. 19


### Continuing on the path of dumping 20



### unlimit ed amounts of carbon into the atmosphere 21


### puts all of this at risk. Carbon pollution and 22

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### climate change threaten the very fabric of our 1


### communities and the vast landscapes that make 2



### Colorado such a great place. 3



### Colorado is blessed with an abundance of 4



### ren ewable energy sources, wind, solar, 5



### geothermal, let's embrace them. The clean power 6


### plan will improve human health, stimulate clean 7


### energy jobs, reduce carbon pollution and foster a 8


### cleaner and brighter future for the state and for 9



### all of America. This h as always been a land of 10


### innovation, technological leadership and positive 11


### trend setting. 12



### I support the plan because I support a 13


### healthy America and a prosperous Colorado. 14



### Thanks. 15



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Reed. Do you 16


### mind spelling your name for th e court reporter. 17



### MR. REED: Sure Matt R

- e

- e

- d. 18



### MS. SUTIN: You can leave it here. 19



### Okay. Mr. Rupp. 20



### MR. RUPP: Yes. Good afternoon. My 21


### name is Joe Rupp. My last name is spelled R

- u

- p

22

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### p. 1


### And first of all, I just wanted to thank 2


### you for allowing us the time to share our 3


### thoughts on this issue. 4


### I'm here to voice my support for the 5


### clean power plan. I think there's a lot of 6


### reasons that this is a necessary and urgent step 7


### for us to take, many of which have been voiced 8



### here today. But I recently hav e gained a new 9


### perspective on this issue. 10


### Just about 15 months ago my wife and I 11



### welcomed our first child into this world and it's 12


### amazing how having a kid changes your perspective 13


### on many issues. There are issues that I read 14


### about in the newspaper now that would have never 15


### even caught my attention 15 months ago. Quality 16


### of our public schools, issues on social security 17



### solvency and what my daughter is going to have to 18


### do with that when she's 50 years old. But in my 19


### mind there's no more pressing issue than global 20


### warming. And the thing that I have the hardest 21


### time imagining is 20 years from now or 30 years 22

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### from now explaining to my daughter the fact that 1


### we knew about this huge massive problem that 2


### affects every living creature on our planet and 3



### that w e didn't do as much as we could as soon as 4



### we could. 5


### So in some regards I almost feel as 6


### though this plan is too late, but obviously I am 7


### grateful that we're even considering this step. 8


### And I think it's something that we have a moral 9


### obligation as citi zens on this earth and 10


### certainly as parents to younger children to 11


### tackle with a great deal of urgency and a great 12


### deal of import. So I strongly encourage you to 13


### move forward with the plan that you've put forth. 14


### I am a strong supporter of it and hope to see 15



### even more of it in the near future. 16



### Thank you. 17



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Rupp. 18



### Next if we can have Alexandra Schlereth 19


### and Katrina Riley. 20



### MS. SCHLERETH: Hi, my name is Alexandra 21



### Schlereth, it's S

- c

- h

- l

- e

- r

- e

- t

- h. I moved to 22

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### Colorado about eight years ago and fell in love 1


### with the state immediately mostly because of the 2


### incredible beauty in our state both in the summer 3



### and the winter. 4


### And I'm here today because I'm incredibly 5


### concerned about global warming and the effects 6


### it's having not just on our state, not just on 7


### our country, but across the entire world. I 8



### think it's an issue we need to take action on 9


### immediately, and this is one of the many steps 10


### that we should be pursuing. So I support the 11



### clean power plan very strongly and that's real ly 12



### all I have to say. 13


### Thank you for your time. 14



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 15


### Ms. Riley? 16


### MS. RILEY: Hi, my name is Katrina Riley, 17



### that's R

- i

- l

- e

- y. 18



### I am here today to show my support for 19



### the proposed clean power plan to regulate carbon 20


### emissions from power plants. 21


### I grew up here in Colorado and I think we 22

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### can all agree, this is a really beautiful and and 1


### special place and I think it's really important 2


### to keep it that way for future generations. 3


### My family has lived here for nearly 20 4



### years and they have ac tually experienced some of 5



### these extreme weather phenomenon that have been 6


### seeming to increase in frequency over the last 7



### few years. My dad's house was actually flooded a 8


### little bit in those floods last September and my 9


### mom has had to evacuate a couple ti mes last 10



### summer for wild fires. And I think these 11


### increased weird weather phenomenon are definitely 12


### linked to global warming. And I think limiting 13


### the carbon emissions from power plants will 14


### definitely help combat global warming around the 15



### country and al so help preserve the environment 16


### and this state which we all love so very much. 17



### That's all. Thank you. 18


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Riley. 19



### Did Mr. Castelino

-- 20



### He is in the other room? 21


### Okay. If you know him, would you like to 22

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### tell him

-- 1



### PARTICIPAN T: (Off microphone.) 2


### MS. SUTIN: Okay. All right. Well, then 3


### can I have Phil Beardsley

- Schoonmaker and Colleen 4



### Cooley. 5



### MR. BEARDSLEY

- SCHOONMAKER: Hello. 6



### MS. SUTIN: Hello, go ahead. 7



### MR. BEARDSLEY

- SCHOONMAKER: Yeah. 8



### MS. SUTIN: Spell your last na me for the 9


### record if you don't mind. 10



### MR. BEARDSLEY

- SCHOONMAKER: So the last 11


### name is Beardsley

- Schoonmaker. It's spelled B

- e

12



### a

- r

- d

- s

- l

- e

- y hyphen Schoonmaker is S

- c

- h

- o

- o

- n

13



### m

- a

- k

- e

- r. 14



### Okay. So thank you all very much for 15


### allowing us the time to come in and voice our 16


### opinions. I am a huge supporter of the EPA's 17


### proposed plan and I just want to share a quick 18



### story about why. 19


### My junior year of college I studied 20



### abroad in one of the southern states of India and 21


### I spent about a year there. During the fir st 22

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### month or so that my class

-- there was about ten 1



### of us

-- were there, we did a lot of cultural 2


### emersion and we were learning the language. We 3


### also had a lot of briefings on political issues, 4



### cultural issues, and in some cases environmental 5



### issues. And this man took us out to this beach. 6



### He sat us down in the sand and he said, "This is 7


### where the house I grew up in used to be." But 8


### because of severe weather events that are causing 9


### erosion because of rising sea levels, they're 10


### already experiencing in th is part of the world, 11


### they've had to move their entire village inland 12



### about three miles. 13



### And he one

- by

- one went around to everyone 14


### in the circle, looked them dead in the eyes and 15


### said, "What are you going to do to fix this?" 16


### And it scared the crap out of me. It really got 17


### me thinking for the first time about our place, 18



### America's role in world events and the fact that 19


### we have such a huge impact on things as large as 20


### global climate. And really got me thinking about 21



### the way that our energy sector and the way that 22

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### we currently burn fossil fuels has been affecting 1



### other people from other places around the world. 2



### And so I urge all of us to really keep 3


### that kind of perspective in mind, that there are 4


### people that are already experiencing negative 5



### effects of c limate change all over the world and 6


### that is why I feel that this proposed plan is 7


### such an important step in the right direction, 8


### for us to keep a leadership role going for the 9


### United States and especially on the environment. 10



### So, thank you all very much. 11



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 12


### Ms. Cooley, come in? No? Scott 13



### Albertson? 14


### MR. ALBERTSON: My name is Scott 15


### Albertson. I'm here speaking on behalf of 16


### Boilermakers Local 33, Kansas City, Missouri, and 17



### our 1,600 members. We are here today because our 18



### members are concerned about the loss of their 19


### jobs due to EPA's proposed clean power plan. 20



### Many of my brethren have already touched 21


### on many of the points I was going to make, so I 22

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### will just focus on our recommendations to the 1



### clean power plan. 2



### The plan should p rovide states with 3


### credit for prior CO2 reductions as an option 4



### towards

-- excuse me

-- towards meeting a 5


### reasonable national target for reducing CO2 6


### emissions from the electric power sector. 7


### EPA's compliance time table is 8



### unrealistic and unachievable eve n with multi

- year 9


### compliance averaging towards the interim and 10


### final targets, the initial reduction program 11



### should be delayed by several years to allow 12


### states and effective sources adequate time to 13


### prepare and submit state plans and to structure 14


### and implem ent compliance strategies in the most 15



### flexible, least

- cost manner. 16


### Am I going too fast? 17



### MS. SUTIN: You're fine. 18


### MR. ALBERTSON: EPA's proposal for major 19


### expansions of state energy efficiency and 20


### renewable energy programs interfere with 21



### traditional stat e authority and energy planning 22

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### and appears to be well beyond the agency's 1


### authority under the Clean Air Act. 2


### The Supreme Court's recent decision on 3


### the GHG permitting rule contains strong 4


### cautionary language that the court will take a 5


### skeptical view of an overly expansive 6


### interpretation of the EPA's authority to regulate 7



### greenhouse gas. 8


### We believe that the agency should 9


### reconsider the proposed rule's building block 10


### approach to set state CO2 emission reduction 11



### goals and based on end

- use energy efficiency
, 12


### increased use of natural gas, and renewable 13


### energy as well as other beyond the fence emission 14


### reduction strategies. 15


### Rather we urge EPA to focus only options 16


### for reducing emissions within the plant fence 17


### line. The proposed 6 percent efficiency 18


### improve ment for existing coal units is a step in 19


### the right direction, but we are doubtful that all 20


### of these investments would ever be made given the 21


### rule's negative impact on coal generation and new 22

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### source review permitting constraints. 1


### Finally, we believe that the rule is 2


### premature since we do not know the extent to 3


### which other nations, particularly large 4


### developing countries, will be willing to commit 5



### to a truly global program of greenhouse gas 6


### reductions. We cannot go it alone and expect 7



### that our actions wil l have any meaningful climate 8


### impact in the world economy that is using more 9


### coal than other fossil fuels every day. 10


### Developing nations already emit more CO2 than 11


### advance industrial nations and the Department of 12


### Energy projects that their share of global 13


### emissions will grow steady. 14



### Thank you. 15



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Albertson. 16


### Well, I think we'll have to pause again. 17


### Let's see if we can get the other speakers in 18



### here that were supposed to speak. , so hang 19


### tight. 20


### (Brief recess at 12:41 p.m.) 21



### (Reco rd resumes at 12:46 p.m.) 22

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### MS. SUTIN: I am officially closing the 1


### morning session of the hearing. Thank you all 2


### for coming and we will start up again at one 3



### o'clock. Thank you. 4


### (Whereupon, at 12:46 p.m., the morning 5



### session, Session A, concluded to re sume at 1:00 6


### p.m. with Session B.) 7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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1



### A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2



### SESSION B 3


### (Time noted: 1:07 p.m.) 4



### MR. JACKSON: Good afternoon, everyone, 5



### we'll go ahead and get started here. 6


### My name is Scott Jackson and I'm one of 7



### the chairs at t oday's public hearing. Thank you 8


### for coming today. 9


### Joining me on the panel today to my left 10


### is Abby Fulton and to my right here is Angela 11


### Giaz and we're here today to listen to your 12



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 13


### pollution from power p lants. 14


### We are here today to listen to your 15



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 16


### pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 17



### of these proposed rules on June 2, 2014. 18



### Power plants are the largest source of 19


### carbon pollution in the U.S., acc ounting for 20



### roughly one

- third of all domestic greenhouse gas 21



### emissions. 22

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### The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 1


### power plan for existing power plants. This 2


### proposal consists of two main parts, state

3


### specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 4



### power plant s and guidelines to help states 5


### develop their plans for meeting their goals. 6


### This proposal gives states flexibility in 7


### determining how to meet their goals. States will 8


### choose what goes into their plans that show how 9


### they will achieve the needed reduction s and meet 10


### their goals by 2030. 11


### The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 12



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 13


### and reconstructed power plants. This rule will 14


### set emission limits for two groups of power 15


### plants, those that make physical or operat ional 16


### changes that increase the plant's maximum 17


### achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 18



### that replace components to such an extent that 19



### the new components exceed 50 percent of the 20


### capital costs of an entirely new comparable 21


### facility. 22

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### If you would li ke more details on either 1



### of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 2


### available near the registration desk which is 3


### located just next to this room here. 4


### Today's hearing is one of four public 5


### hearings across the country this week on the two 6



### proposed rul es. We have had tremendous interest 7


### in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 8


### you for taking time out of your day today to join 9



### us and share your comments. 10


### All evidence to the contrary in this 11


### room, but we have a lot of people signed up to 12



### speak, at least we did yesterday. And likely 13



### we'll also have that case this afternoon. And we 14



### want to be able to hear from all of them. So 15


### before we get started I would like to go through 16


### a few housekeeping items and ground rules that 17


### will help make this hear ing run smoothly. 18


### First, please be sure you have checked in 19


### at the registration desk that is, like I 20


### mentioned, just next door. And if you

-- check 21


### in at the registration desk even if you are not 22

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### planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 1



### speak on line or by phone but haven't told us that 2


### you're here, please step out to the registration 3



### desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 4



### arrived. 5


### Second, if you are a speaker, you were 6


### given a room letter when you checked in, either 7



### Room A or Room B. This is Room B. So hopefully 8


### everyone is in that right place. Are you in the 9


### right room? If not, this is a good time to 10



### switch. 11


### If you are not speaking this afternoon 12


### and the room is getting crowded, we have two 13


### additional rooms set up where you can watch the 14


### hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 15


### desk will direct you to one of those rooms. It 16


### doesn't look like we're going to have that issue 17


### this afternoon, but just in case. 18


### All right. Here's how today's hearing 19


### will work. I will call speakers in pairs, when 20


### your name is called, please come to the podium at 21



### the front of the room. When I call on you to 22

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### speak, please state your name, and spell it for 1


### the court reporter. This is Zack over here. 2



### Your comments will be transcribed and 3



### included in the record of comments on the 4


### proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 5


### minutes to give comments. We have a light to 6


### help you know how much time you have left to 7


### speak. That's right here. When the light turns 8



### from green to yellow, that means you have one 9


### minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 10


### signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 11


### flash red and beep when you have spoken for five 12


### minutes and it is time to stop after that. 13


### When you are finished speaking, please 14



### remain at the table or podium until the person 15


### next to you has completed his or her testimony. 16


### We are here to listen to you today. 17


### However a panel member may ask you to clarify 18



### your comments , may ask you a few questions. 19


### After we get the first two at the podium 20



### I will cal l for the next pair of speakers to sit 21


### in the chairs behind there so that you're ready 22

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### to go once the speakers in front of you are 1



### finished. 2


### If you have brought a written copy of 3


### your testimony, please give that to the staff at 4


### the registration desk befo re you leave today

. 5



### Because of the large number of people 6



### t h at have signed up over these two da y s , and to 7


### be fair to everyone, we are going to have to 8


### strictly enforce this five

- minute limit. 9


### If you have additional comments you would 10


### like to make, you ca n submit them in writing. 11


### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 12



### much consideration to comments we receive in 13


### writing as we do to the comments we receive at 14


### public hearings like this one. 15


### So if you have more than you would like 16


### to say, please submit i t. Your comments will be 17



### reviewed. 18


### There is still plenty of time to get 19



### written comments in and there are comment cards 20


### available at the registration desk. Comments 21


### must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 22

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### put any written comments submitted today in the 1


### official docket for the proposed rule. 2


### Instructions for submitting written comments in 3


### other ways are available at the materials table 4


### near the registration desk. 5


### We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 6


### tonight. We will take short breaks throughout 7


### the day as needed. If you have questions during 8



### the day or during this session, we ask that you 9


### please see the staff at the registration desk and 10



### someone can assist you. 11


### Finally, and most importantly, I w ant to 12



### ask each of you to please be respectful of 13


### everyone who speaks today. We have people with a 14


### wide variety of views in the audience and we want 15



### to hear from all of you. So we can do that, and 16


### to be fair to everyone, we ask that everyone 17



### please listen quietly, even applause can slow 18


### things down and we want to hear from everyone who 19


### is signed up to speak. 20


### Thank you again, for taking the time 21



### today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 22

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### rule s

. Let's get started. 1


### So the first two speakers will be Terry 2


### Carwile and Colleen Cooley , if they could come to 3


### the podium. And the speakers after them will be 4


### Thomas Walsh and Carol Streamer, if you could 5


### take the seats behind those speakers if you're 6



### here yet. 7


### Mr. Carwile, please begin. 8



### MR. CARWILE: Thank you very much. My 9


### name is Terry Carwile, and t hat's spelled C

- a

- r

10



### w

- i

- l

- e. I'm the Mayor of Craig, Colorado. I've 11


### lived in Craig, Colorado since 1976. I was on 12


### the ground when the Craig power plant was first 13



### constructed. I spent 30 years after that, from 14


### 1978 to 2008 working out at Trapper Mine wh ich 15


### fueled the Craig station. Not only did the Craig 16



### station and the associated coal reserves that 17


### fuel it, not only did that development fuel an 18



### economic transformation in the area, it fueled a 19



### social transformation. And that's what I want to 20


### spend a li ttle bit of time talking about today. 21



### Because when the long

- term stable employment base 22

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### took a grip on the community, that's when we 1



### started to see a real social fabric start to form 2


### and that's what has given the viability to the 3


### community up there that y ou see today. 4


### Improvements in education, new school 5


### construction, new community college construction, 6


### improvements in health care, new hospitals, new 7



### clinics, the workforce in both of those 8


### situations, the Craig station and Trapper mine 9



### are not, nor hav e they ever been part of this 10


### nation's problem when it comes to substandard 11


### health care or substandard retirement funding. 12


### So the educational system, the health 13


### care system and of course an array of economic

-- 14


### I mean, recreational opportunities have ar isen in 15


### the intervening years. Of course, that has also 16


### created an environment where people can complete 17


### a career and find Craig a very attractive place 18


### to spend their retirements as well. 19


### So my request from the agency is that we 20


### do not be disrupted to t hat which has already 21


### been successfully constructed in our community. 22

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### A transformation is in the wind again. 1


### And I think it will probably be fueled by 2


### something like the community college, let's say. 3


### I think that will be the game changer of the 4



### future in our part of the world. The economy 5


### transforms from time to time up there and I've 6


### seen a couple of them come and go in the 38 years 7


### that I've lived up there. And so there's no 8


### reason not to expect that we can't move into the 9



### future with the same sort of success that we've 10



### had for the last 40 years. 11


### The trick here, the real challenge, I 12



### think, is for us to do it without too much 13


### disruption. Too much job loss. It's a tough and 14


### challenging economic time right at the present 15


### and, you know, there are ind ications that it's on 16


### the upswing. We hope it gets to Craig soon. The 17


### city of Craig, of course, has been struggling 18


### with a bad projector when it comes to sales tax 19


### revenue. So we need everything that we can get 20



### to help get that economy stood back up. 21



### S o not only is the amenities to which I 22

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### referred important but the economic base created 1


### by the Craig station and the surrounding mines, 2


### that has helped us carry through tough economic 3


### times, which we are in today. Coming out of the 4



### recession, it's not as bad as it was in 2009, 5


### 2010, but it is not that great anyway. We still 6


### have a lot more service that we need to provide 7



### than we have revenue for. So that's our 8



### challenge today. 9


### Is that the yellow light right there? 10



### MR. JACKSON: Yes, one minute. 11



### MR. CARWILE: I think that's going to be 12



### about as much as I have to say today. And I 13


### thank you all very much for your time. 14


### One last thing is I cordially invite you 15



### to come to northwest Colorado. It is the last 16


### great frontier in the continental United State s. 17


### It's about 13,000 people in a 4800 square mile 18


### area. So it qualifies as a frontier by Census 19



### standards. So, thank you all very much. I 20


### definitely appreciate your time. Thank you. 21


### MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Carwile, if 22

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### you could stay there while the next speaker 1



### speaks. Thank you. 2


### MR. CARWILE: Do you need this? 3



### MR. JACKSON: You can hang onto that and 4


### give it to the registration desk when you

-- 5



### MR. CARWILE: Thank you. 6



### MR. JACKSON: If you could please stay 7


### until this speaker is finished. 8



### MR. CARWILE: Oh, sure. 9



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Ms. Cooley? 10


### MS. COOLEY: My name is Colleen Cooley, 11


### it's spelled C

- o

- l

- l

- e

- e

- n Cooley, C

- o

- o

- l

- e

- y. 12



### And I am here today. I come from the 13


### Four Corners region of Arizona, Utah, Colorado, 14



### and New Mexico. I grew up on the Navajo nation 15


### in a community known as Shonto, Arizona. I 16


### currently live and work in the Four Corners 17


### region. 18



### I am here today as a young Danah (ph) 19


### woman and I plan to have kids in the near future 20


### and I plan to build a home for myself , my fiancé, 21


### my kids, on the Navajo nation in the next five 22

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### years. 1


### I am an advocate for living sustainably 2



### and I want to live off the land as much as 3


### possible. Meaning, I want to grow my own food, 4


### collect my own water, utilize the sun and wind 5



### for my en ergy needs. 6


### Right now in my current living situation 7


### I already exercise some of these things. But if I 8


### want to continue living this way, there needs to 9



### be clean air and clean water available in the 10


### next 100 years or so for myself, my kids, and 11



### future gene rations. 12


### Right now the Navajo nation is surrounded 13


### by at least five coal

- fired power plants, two of 14


### which are located on the Navajo nation, one in 15



### Arizona and one in New Mexico. When I first 16



### heard about he proposed clean power plan I was 17



### happy to hear th at the nearby power plants were 18


### going to reduce their carbon pollution. But 19


### shortly after, another article was released 20


### stating that the power plants located in Indian 21


### country were being delayed from the proposed rule 22

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### and that tribes will have the opportu nity to come 1


### up with their own clean up plans. 2



### However, I understand there are multi

3


### jurisdictional issues with tribes and states 4


### especially for the Navajo nation, but this is 5


### just unacceptable. I mean, why should the Navajo 6


### people continue to suffer fr om the carbon 7


### pollution from the two biggest power plants in 8



### the U.S.? We have already suffered for the past 9


### 50 years and there has been an increase in 10



### asthma, bronchitis and other health

- related 11


### issues. It just doesn't make sense because the 12


### pollution e mitted from these power plants does 13


### not stay on the reservation, it travels off the 14


### reservation affecting nearby communities, towns, 15


### national parks and waterways. 16



### Also, none of the power generated at 17


### these two power plants goes directly to the 18


### Navajo peop le. The power is owned by non

- Navajo 19


### utility companies and is delivered to southern 20



### Arizona and southern New Mexico where from there 21


### our own tribal utility authority then purchases 22

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### the power back from these companies in order to 1


### provide electricity to som e of the Navajo 2


### customers residing on the Navajo nation. 3


### From the pollution to giant power lines 4


### to health issues running through the Navajo 5


### nation I believe this is an environment justice 6


### issue, ultimately a human rights issue. So to be 7



### fair to all livi ng things on the mother earth I 8


### strongly urge the Environmental Protection Agency 9



### to enforce the clean power plan for all power 10


### plants in the U.S. including the power plants 11


### located in Indian country. 12


### Since high school, I have seen and heard 13



### about how the se power plants have affected the 14



### health of the people, the land, the wate rways, 15



### the animals and the air we breathe. So after 16


### high school I decided to continue my education, 17



### go to college, and learn more about the 18



### environmental issues and the factors affe cting 19



### our Danah (ph) life ways . And now I have 20


### received my bachelor's degree and master's degree 21


### in environmental sciences and I am currently 22

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### working with a non

- profit environmental 1


### organization known as Danah Care (ph) where we 2


### work with Navajo communiti es affected by energy 3



### and environmental issues such as the Four Corners 4



### Power Plant and coal mine. 5



### However, one does not need to have a 6


### college degree to understand that the climate is 7


### rapidly changing, and what is the main 8


### contributor to this change? Ca rbon pollution. 9


### Our Navajo elders have lived and witnessed these 10


### changes in their lifetimes. I know because I 11


### have listened to their stories about how they 12


### used to grow their own food every summer, how 13


### their springs and washes were filled with water 14



### for their sheep and horses to consume, how it 15


### used to rain periodically. 16


### But now our climate is being disrupted 17


### with carbon pollution and it will only get worse, 18


### especially in Indian country unless the EPA 19



### enforces the proposed clean power plan on all 20



### power plants in the U.S. 21


### The Denah people and other tribes deserve 22

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### an equally strong plan as the rest of the country 1


### to protect our life ways, the health of our 2



### people and the health of the land, water, and 3


### air. We are not fortunate enough to just 4



### relocate fr om our communities if they get 5


### destroyed by catastrophic events such as 6



### wildfires and flash floods. We have suffered the 7


### burden of climate injustices for far too long and 8


### it needs to stop now. Please enforce the clean 9



### power plan for all power plants. 10



### Th ank you. 11



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Ms. Cooley. 12



### Thank you both. 13


### We're going to replace batteries on these 14



### mikes. And if I could have Thomas Walsh and 15



### Carol Streamer as our next speakers. 16


### MS. STREAMER: Did you say Carol 17



### Streamer, because I can't hear you too well. 18



### MR. JACKSON: Yes. 19



### And is Thomas Walsh here? 20



### (No response.) 21



### MR. JACKSON: We'll get started as soon 22

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### as the batteries are in place. 1



### (Pause.) 2



### PARTICIPANT: Is the other gentleman not 3



### here? 4



### MR. JACKSON: Does not appear to be. So 5



### you may start. 6



### MS. STREAMER: Okay. I will start. 7



### Carol Streamer, S

- t

- r

- e

- a

- m

- e

- r. I 8



### represent the Boulder County Beekeepers 9


### Association. I'm here because I think you have 10


### to pay attention to warning signs from nature. 11



### When I was born here in Colorado, w e used 12



### coal to fuel our plants and I

-- my job during 13



### World War II was to observe. In fact, when the 14


### coal truck came to see in fact we got our fair 15



### share of coal to feed our furnace, because I was 16


### living in a building that wasn't heated all the 17



### time. It was three stories tall. We sometimes 18


### were cheated in our coal shipment. 19


### During the 1970s I work for Frederick 20



### Carter Cutrell and Frederick Carter Cutrell 21


### created the patent system for retrieving 22

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### pollution from the power plants in New York. So 1



### I do have some idea about the fact that they had 2


### awareness in World War II of a problem with 3


### pollution in New York. And I am pleased that I 4


### got to work for him 25 years after he died. 5


### Now, what happened in 1974 is we were 6


### planning an RTD system for our transportat ion in 7


### Boulder County and the rest of metropolitan 8



### Denver and I happened to have to walk to the 9


### places where we were meeting and noticed along 10


### the power plant in Boulder County that all of the 11



### cottonwood trees crowns were dead. And I went to 12



### a U.S. Forest ry Department meeting. The man who 13


### was from that department in Washington, D.C. told 14


### me in fact that when they built the power plants 15


### in the 19th century, they decided the 20th 16


### century people were going to be too stupid to 17


### know something about what they w ere doing. 18


### They in fact

-- most people don't 19


### realize, you can't have water in your home and 20



### toilets which was brand

- new at that idea in the 21


### 19th century, unless you had electricity. 22

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### One of the problems is that we have is in 1


### fact the change in our cultur e if in fact we do 2


### too much with our power plants as what happened 3


### yesterday in downtown, I guess it's Los Angeles, 4


### where in fact the water system exploded and the 5


### line underneath, which is 75 years old, and in 6


### fact caused a real crisis in the campus there in 7



### Los Angeles. 8


### This is one of the things that has to be 9


### addressed and that is if we change things in our 10


### power systems, which is important, we have to 11



### also know about the rest of the power system 12



### which has to do with our infrastructure of 13



### toilets, sewer s, and running water in our 14



### kitchens and bathrooms. And this can be as our 15


### population grows an enormous problem for people 16



### to address. 17



### And also we have to be aware of the fact 18


### that there are warning signs from such as the 19


### bees that are having struggles surviving. And 20


### they are sending us messages about the fact that 21


### our air is polluted and there are other insects 22

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### that are causing us different kinds of 1


### difficulties that give us a warning sign. 2


### Those of us who in fact are living very 3


### fragile lives because of our internal problems, 4



### that as we age, have to have clean water, we know 5


### in fact that the problems that China has with its 6


### yellow pollution. And we are, in fact, creating 7


### problems throughout the world not just for 8



### ourselves. We're on the 40th paralle l and in the 9


### 40th parallel we get the airwaves that are 10


### traveling around the world from coal and other 11


### pollutions. So we have to be aware of our 12


### environment in many different ways. 13


### And I appreciate the time you gave me 14


### unexpectedly to address this. But I do hope you 15


### bear a warning sign about the fact the cottonwood 16


### trees, when the crown dies, that means not only 17



### do the power plants have to be replaced, but also 18


### the infrastructure of your water and sewer 19



### system. 20



### Thank you. 21



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 22

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### D id Thomas Walsh happen to arrive? 1



### (No response.) 2



### MR. JACKSON: Thomas Walsh. So at the 3


### moment I don't have any speakers in front of me 4


### listed. Maybe some of you are waiting to speak. 5


### Maybe we'll take a five

- minute break so I can 6



### look into that situati on and so please be back in 7



### five minutes. 8


### (Brief recess taken at 1:30 p.m.) 9



### (Record resumes at 1:35 p.m.) 10



### MR. JACKSON: Okay. We'll go ahead and 11



### resume. Sorry for the delay there. 12


### We have David Ellenberger in the room on 13



### behalf of Kera Reed. Mr. Ell enberger, please 14


### come up and then Dave Chadwick, also please come 15



### up. 16



### Just a reminder, I don't think I said 17


### this from the beginning, if you could leave those 18


### little microphones untouched on the top there, 19


### that's for the court reporter, and if you move 20



### the m around it kind of messes up the recording. 21


### So we appreciate that. And, again, a reminder to 22

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### please spell your name for the court reporter. 1


### Thank you. So we'll go ahead and start with Mr. 2



### Ellenberger. 3


### MR. ELLENBERGER: Yeah. My name is David 4



### Ellenbe rger, I work for the National Wildlife 5


### Federation in Boulder, but had some testimony 6



### submitted from Beth Pratt who is our

-- that's P

7



### r

- a

- t

- t, who is our California director of the 8



### National Wildlife Federation. 9



### And she says: Thank you for the 10


### opportunity to submit formal testimony regarding 11


### EPA's proposed clean power plan. Her name is 12



### Beth Pratt and the California director of the 13



### National Wildlife Federation. 14



### I'm here today from my home on the border 15


### of Yosemite National Park to express my strong 16



### suppor t of EPA's historic action to combat 17


### climate change by setting limits on carbon 18


### pollution from existing power plants. 19


### We have an obligation to protect our 20


### children and future generations from the impact 21


### of climate change. We also have an obligation to 22

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### pr otect wildlife and our natural resources upon 1


### which we all depend that are on the frontlines of 2


### our changing climate. 3


### Our warming climate is posing one of the 4


### greatest threats to wildlife today and as a 5


### wildlife enthusiast and nature lover, I applaud 6



### EP A for taking action to combat the route of the 7


### problem, carbon pollution. 8


### I have witnessed the damage of extreme 9


### weather fueled by climate change in California. 10


### In Yosemite one of the best protected places on 11


### the planet, climate change is taking its to ll on 12


### both people and wildlife. Last year the rim fire 13


### partially fueled by the impacts of climate change 14


### burned 402 square miles and threatened two of 15


### Yosemite's ancient groves of giant Sequoyah trees 16


### and destroyed vital habitat for the rate Yosemite 17



### grea t gay owl and other wildlife species. 18


### Over half of the small mammal species in 19


### Yosemite have moved their habitat range as 20


### compared to earlier in the century, mostly due to 21


### the higher and drier conditions created by the 22

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### rising temperatures. 1



### Elsewhere in California, Salmon are 2


### having to be trucked to their spawning grounds 3


### because of dry rivers, bears are emerging from 4


### hibernation early only to find no food, and sea 5


### lions are experiencing increased pup mortality 6


### and strandings. 7



### In a report released last year the 8


### California EPA warned that climate change 9


### proposed an immediate and growing threat to the 10


### wildlife in the state. California possesses a 11


### remarkable range of wild places and wildlife and 12


### of any state in America, ranks as having the 13


### highest total nu mber of species and highest 14


### number of endemic species. California also 15



### houses one of the world's 25 most vulnerable 16


### biological hot spots, and ranks second in the 17


### United States for the number of endangered 18


### species within its borders. 19


### Climate change is put ting th is special 20



### natural heritage at risk. 21


### I applaud EPA for taking much needed 22

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### steps to reverse the course we're on. The U.S. 1


### EPA's clean power plan is a major step in the 2


### right direction. This plan will help speed the 3


### way towards a future in which w e invest more in 4



### wildlife

- friendly sources of clean energy and 5


### less in fuels that pollute our air and water and 6



### harm our total climate. 7


### By reducing the reliance on coal burning 8


### for power generation in the U.S. the clean power 9


### plan will help protect wildl ife by reducing not 10


### only the carbon pollution, but also other harmful 11


### pollutants like mercury that poison fish and 12



### threaten all of us who eat them. This role will 13


### reduce the need for more coal mining that's 14


### destroying precious wildlife habitat and it will 15


### reduce the number of leaking toxic coal waste 16


### ponds that put our lakes and rivers in harm's 17



### way. 18


### As you finalize the standard, I ask that 19



### you work to ensure that it achieves that deepest 20


### reductions possible by requiring states to use 21



### wildlife

- friendly re newable energy and energy 22

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### efficiency and not simply more natural gas 1


### burning. California can and should do more to 2


### generate power from renewable sources like wind 3



### and solar and reduce energy demands for energy 4


### efficiency. EPA should strengthen the standa rd 5


### to reflect this potential. 6


### Thank you for the opportunity to comment 7


### today. We look forward to working with you to 8


### finalize and implement the clean power plan. We 9


### hope you will do everything you can to ensure it 10



### stays strong through the process. The wildlife 11


### and future generations are counting on your 12


### leadership. Thanks in advance and let us know if 13


### you have any questions, Beth Pratt, California 14



### Director of National Wildlife Federation. 15



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 16



### Mr. Chadwick? 17


### MR. CHADWICK: Hi, my name is Dave 18


### Chadwick, spelled C

- h

- a

- d

- w

- i

- c

- k. I'm the 19



### executive director of the Montana Wildlife 20



### Federation. I live in Helena, Montana. 21



### The Montana Wildlife Federation is 22

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### Montana's oldest and largest wildlife 1


### conservation organization. MWF was found ed in 2


### 1936 by hunters, anglers, wildlife watchers, 3


### agricultural landowners and a variety of other 4



### conservationists who were concerned about the 5



### loss of our state's natural lands, healthy 6



### waters, and abundant wildlife. 7


### For the last eight decades MWF has pl ayed 8


### a central role in efforts to protect the 9


### resources that define Montana's identity as the 10


### last, best place. Our 5,000 members include 11


### hunters, anglers, and other conservationists from 12



### around Montana and the nation. 13



### Montana is an outdoor state. Almos t 14


### 570,000 people hunt, fish, and enjoy wildlife 15


### watching in Montana. 16


### We see firsthand the impacts that global 17


### warming is having on our lands, waters, fish and 18


### wildlife. This fact documented by an 19


### overwhelming global scientific consensus is 20


### playing out i n very real ways in the treasure 21


### state. Precipitation patterns are changing. 22

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### Wildfires are more frequent and more intense, 1


### drought is more common and more severe. 2


### Vegetation patterns are changing. Snow pack 3


### levels are down. Runoff is happening earlier
, 4


### disrupting seasonal stream flow patterns. Water 5


### temperatures in our rivers and streams are 6


### rising. All of these changes are having a very 7


### real and tangible impact on the ability of 8


### Montanans to hunt, fish, and enjoy our state's 9



### outdoors. 10


### Changes in v egetation are altering 11


### habitat for big game. Hunters around this state 12


### report that the animals just aren't where they 13


### used to be. Warmer temperatures in September are 14


### making life difficult for bow hunters who can't 15


### find animals and can't pack out game wi thout 16


### spoilage. 17


### Drier conditions in the prairie pothole 18


### region of eastern Montana are impacting waterfowl 19



### hunters and bird watchers. 20


### Higher water temperatures and diminished 21


### stream flows are stressing fish forcing river 22

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### closures during what used to be the peak of the 1


### fishing season in the best fishing in the west. 2


### These changes are affecting the ability of people 3



### from Montana and from all over the world to hunt, 4


### fish, and otherwise enjoy Montana's wildlife 5


### resources, ultimately undercutting our state's 6


### multibillion dollar outdoor economy. 7


### Because of the impact that global warming 8



### has on fish, wildlife and the outdoor traditions 9



### that depend on these resources, the Montana 10


### Wildlife Federation supports policies for 11


### reduced greenhouse gas emissions. 12



### If we don't act now these problems will 13



### only get worse. We need to take steps to address 14


### global warming in order to ensure that future 15


### generations can enjoy the hunting, fishing, and 16



### other outdoor traditions that we value as 17



### Montanans. We also need to prot ect the tens of 18


### thousands of jobs in communities all over the 19


### state that depend on our natural environment and 20


### on our rich outdoor recreation opportunities. 21



### The clean power plan represents a good 22

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### step toward helping protect Montana from the 1



### threat of glo bal warming. The plan calls for 2


### Montana to reduce our global warming pollution by 3



### 21 percent by 2030 in order to contribute to the 4


### overall nationwide reduction of 30 percent. 5



### We believe that the state focused

6


### approach in the proposal will give Montana the 7


### flexibility to develop strategies that work for 8



### our resources, our economy, and our power needs. 9


### In addition to the benefits of reducing global 10


### warming pollution, the clean power plan has the 11


### potential to reduce other threats to fish and 12



### wildlife. 13



### Some of Montana's most wildlife rich 14


### areas are also targets for coal mining and other 15


### extracted activities. Reducing our national 16


### dependence on dirty energy sources will reduce 17



### pressure to destroy and fragment Montana's 18


### landscape keeping these lands and w aters in tact 19


### for future generations of people and wildlife. 20


### On the other side of the equation, the 21


### clean power plan also holds great potential to 22

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### enhance Montana's economy by creating new jobs in 1


### renewable energy and energy efficiency. Wind and 2



### other cl ean renewable energy sources represent a 3


### potential growth industry for Montana. The state 4



### plans developed under the clean power plan can 5


### provide for the responsible development of these 6


### renewable resources. Improving energy efficiency 7


### similarly holds the potential to save money for 8



### Montanans. 9



### On behalf of the hundreds of thousands of 10


### Montanans who hunt, fish, and enjoy the outdoors, 11



### as well as the hundreds of thousands of Montanans 12


### who depend on our state's multibillion dollar 13



### fish and wildlife

- based out door economy, I urge 14



### you to support a strong clean power plan that 15


### reduces greenhouse gas pollution. 16



### Thank you. 17



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Thank you both. 18



### We have Jeff Delaney ready to speak? 19



### MR. DELANEY: Thank you. I'll leave that 20



### there. 21



### MR. JACK SON: And Mr. Delaney, we're just 22

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### going to pause for 30 seconds here to see if we 1



### can drum up a few more speakers' names. Thank 2



### you. 3



### (Pause.) 4



### MR. JACKSON: Okay. Do we have Karen 5



### S jo berg and Pastor Patrick Demmer in the 6



### audience? 7



### (Chorus of yes.) 8



### MR . JACKSON: If you guys could just cue 9


### up there behind Mr. Delaney and you'll be the 10



### next to speak. Mr. Delaney, thank you for 11


### waiting. 12


### MR. DELANEY: Hi, my name is Jeff 13



### Delaney, that's D

- e

- l

- a

- n

- e

- y. 14


### I'm a petroleum engineer and geologist 15



### and I support the EPA's proposed clean power 16



### plan. 17



### I've been a member of the Denver Climate 18



### Change Study Group for four years and I'm also a 19


### volunteer with Al Gore's Climate Reality Group. 20


### Climate change education is a passion of 21



### mine. The science is settled and i t's time to 22

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### act. Colorado has been a national leader at the 1


### state level with the passing of Amendment 37 ten 2


### years ago in 2004. 3



### The last I looked, our economy has 4


### recovered nicely and we lead the nation in a 5


### relatively robust economy. Now, with the ne w EPA 6


### standards, we can begin to lead as a nation as 7



### well. 8



### I want to address the lay person and 9


### folks that are skeptical and deniers that are 10


### tied to special interests. 11


### Yes, the climate has changed in the past, 12


### but at a geologic pace and not in a generat ion or 13



### two. It is not the sun. 14



### It is not too late to act, as some claim 15


### and fear, but further delay will be more costly 16



### and much more difficult. The earth is not now 17


### cooling as some misrepresent by cherry picking 18



### data. There is a scientific consensus ; 97 19


### percent of published peer

- reviewed papers by 20


### climate scientists conclude that anthropogenic 21



### climate science

-- climate change is indeed a fact. 22

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### All National Academies of Science of 1


### every major country are in agreement with this 2



### consensus. All scientif ic associations related 3


### to the study of climate change and global warming 4


### have concluded that climate change is 5


### anthropogenic. 6


### But let's not just take the scientific 7


### community's word for it. What about business? 8


### Reinsurance companies, the multi

- nationa l 9


### companies that insure insurance companies, Munich 10


### Re, for example, is very concerned about the 11


### increased extreme weather that we see globally. 12


### They're tracking it, modifying their financial 13


### models and the results are alarming for them. 14


### You can Google i t. You can look at 15


### Munich Re's tracking extreme weather over time, 16


### there's a nice plot out there. 17


### The CEO Swiss Re, the other large multi

18


### national reinsure company was quoted a year ago 19


### saying, "What keeps us up late at night is 20


### climate change. We see t he long

- term effects of 21


### climate change on society and it really frightens 22

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### us." 1


### Jeffrey Seawright of Coca

- Cola increased 2



### -- was quoted as saying, "Increased droughts, 3


### more unpredictable variability, hundred year 4


### floods with a frequency of every two years. When 5


### we look at our most essential ingredients in 6


### their supply chain, we see these events as 7



### threats." 8



### In 2012 alone, weather disasters cost the 9


### U.S. economy over $100 billion. When it is 10



### claimed that coal

- fired electric generation is 11


### the least expensiv e, the full

- cycle economics are 12


### not part of that equation. A recent Washington 13



### Post ABC news poll found that 70 percent of the 14


### American public back carbon limits on existing 15


### power plants including a majority of Republicans. 16


### Climate models clearly depict a world 17


### that we would not recognize if climate change 18


### goes unchecked. We need to lead in this effort 19


### as we lead the world in other technological 20



### advances such as electronics, the Internet, and 21



### biotech. 22

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### We were surpassed by China in 2009 as in 1



### the gener ation of renewable technology. The 2



### proposed EPA standards are a start, but we need 3


### to place a price on carbon as well because we are 4


### paying a price on carbon with the warming climate 5


### change and extreme weather we have seen in the 6



### recent past. 7



### Thank you. 8



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 9



### Ms. Sjoberg and Pastor Demmer, you guys 10


### could come on up to the podium there. We'll 11



### start with Ms. Sjoberg

. 12



### MS. SJOBE RG : Thank you, my name is Karen 13


### Sjoberg, Karen Sjoberg is S

- j

- o

- b

- e

- r

- g , and I'm 14


### here today representing Cit izens for Clean Air. 15


### And we are an organization in Grand Junction 16


### which is a city of 130,000 on the other side of 17



### the mountains. I moved there from Denver almost 18


### 30 years ago and I fell in love with the beauty 19



### of the place. People who love the outdoors love 20



### Grand Junction and so we attract lots of 21


### recreationists and outdoor people and tourists, 22

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### and we also have a lot of fruit growers and 1



### vintners, beautiful orchards. And we have a lot 2


### at stake from the effects of climate change, our 3


### agriculture, our eco nomy, our air, our water, and 4



### our health. 5


### A couple of us drove the 200 miles over 6


### the mountain just to let you know that we are 7


### grateful for the clean power plan along with many 8



### others in western Colorado. We do have an air 9


### pollution problem in Grand J unction. We are 10


### moving towards nonattainment. And Citizens for 11


### Clean Air is working against any and all 12


### incremental increases in air pollutants. Poor 13


### air quality is made worse by the effects of 14


### climate change and these effects are real in my 15



### home town. 16


### Summertime temperatures are getting 17


### warmer. We're seeing less rainfall, and winter 18


### nights are warming. And I do have some data 19


### which I'll leave in my written statement. 20



### I love Colorado. I'm a Colorado native. 21



### And I'm encouraged that we've already taken steps 22

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### to reduce carbon, methane, and other harmful 1


### pollutants. Citizens for Clean Air is proud to 2


### have played a part in the recent effort along 3


### with the Air Quality Control Commission in 4


### placing safeguards that reduce methane and other 5


### oil and gas e missions in this state. And this 6


### was a collaborative effort by industry, 7


### environmentalists, governments, and citizens 8


### groups like ours. And that success shows that 9


### when we work together great things can happen. 10


### We feel that the clean power plan is 11



### anoth er step forward. The standard makes sense, 12


### and they're designed so that Colorado can choose 13


### to comply in ways that best suit us. They give 14


### us the opportunity to transition to cleaner fuel 15


### sources that will open up new jobs. The clean 16


### power plan gives us hope, most of all. Today's 17


### children deserve a bright future, the kind of 18



### future that I had when I was a child. And I'm 19


### willing to work for it and I'm willing to 20


### sacrifice some things for it. 21


### The air we breathe has been something 22

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### that we've been able t o take for granted up until 1



### now. And it has been a hard lesson for me to 2


### learn that clean air doesn't come free anymore, 3


### that from here on out we're going to have work 4



### for it. 5


### Now that we're finally acknowledging our 6



### problem, we can put our best selves forward to 7


### face up to it and to do something to change it. 8


### I thank you for doing your part? And I do want 9


### to add something that I hadn't planned on saying. 10


### It was pointed out to me just recently that the 11


### proposal encourages nuclear power plants with 12



### inc entives and subsidies. And for us on the 13


### western slope, nuclear power plants mean uranium 14


### mining and milling. And we have a legacy of 15


### nothing but tragedy as far as that is concerned 16



### and I've lost faith in it, and that would be the 17



### one part of the plan th at we would totally 18


### disagree with. It's not sustainable, it's not 19



### renewable and it's bad news for western Colorado. 20



### Thank you very much. 21



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 22

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### Mr. Demmer? 1



### MR. DEMMER : Thank you. I am the 2


### Reverend Patrick Demmer, my last name is s pelled 3



### D

- e

- m

- m

- e

- r. I'm a Pastor at the Graham Memorial 4



### C o mm u nity Church of God in Christ and I just 5


### thank you for this opportunity to stand before 6



### you. 7



### The Bible declares that the earth is the 8


### Lord's and the fullness thereof. But he gave it 9



### to man. An d it is our responsibility to keep it, 10


### preserve it, and to maintain it. 11



### As a boy I grew up

-- and I'm a native of 12


### Colorado, I grew up right here in the 13


### unincorporated community of Adams County. I know 14


### what it means to have a good and a bad 15



### environment. I know what it means to be able to 16


### feed chickens and slop hogs and milk cows, and 17


### all of the good things that came along with good 18


### country living. But because there was a plant 19


### that was right behind where I grew up that was 20


### contaminating the land and it 's not a secret, the 21



### name of the plant was the Asarco plant. And 22

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### because it contaminated where we lived, many 1


### health problem and many issues with asthma, many 2


### issues with breathing. I right now have 3



### tremendous difficulties with different kinds of 4



### breathi ng my own self (sic), and the only thing 5


### we can attribute it perhaps to was the 6


### environment and where I grew up. 7



### Because I believe in that Bible, because 8


### I believe in what God gave to us, it is our duty 9


### to keep it nice, to keep it clean, and to keep it 10



### p rotected, I am very encouraged by what our 11


### president has proposed to help us maintain and 12


### clean up our environment. 13


### I was somewhat surprised, but yet 14


### delighted to discover, that President Obama's 15


### concern for a healthy climate for all of us is a 16



### first

- eve r effort to engage and set commonsense 17


### federal limits on carbon pollution. But I 18


### applaud this effort. I support this effort. 19


### Many have suggested that African 20



### Americans are not conservatives, but that is not 21


### true. Yes, we've had to fight to survive, but 22

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### the greatest sense of survival is good health. 1


### My community very often is the least that can 2


### afford prolonged health issues, medical care, and 3


### problems even with our young children growing up, 4


### fighting to live, fighting to survive because of 5



### that which h ave made our air, the very air we 6



### breathe toxic. 7


### I support the president's desire and I 8



### support and I urge

-- I urge the powers that be 9


### to recognize that we only have one world. We may 10


### travel through outer space, but this is our earth 11



### and we must take care of this earth. I urge you 12


### to do all you can do and I stand behind that 13


### which would keep our earth and our atmosphere 14



### safe for everybody. 15



### Thank you. 16



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 17


### Okay. Our next speakers will be Fannie 18


### Posey Eddy and Braden Miguel, ple ase come up. 19


### And behind them we'll have Dwayne Richards and 20


### Mark Farnsworth. If you are here, you could sit 21


### in the chairs behind the podiums, that would 22

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### help, or speed us along here. So do we have 1


### Dwayne Richards or Mark Farnsworth ? 2



### So Ms. Eddy? 3



### MS. E DDY: Thank you. My name is Fannie 4


### Posey Eddy. I'm the President of the American 5


### Association of Blacks in Energy, Denver Area 6



### Chapter. 7



### The American Association of Blacks in 8


### Energy is a national organization of energy 9


### professionals comprised of a networ k of 37 10


### chapters and 1800 members across the United 11


### States representing every sector of the energy 12


### industry. 13


### Our mission is to ensure the input of 14



### African Americans and other minorities enter the 15


### discussions and development of energy policies, 16


### regulatio ns, R&D technologies and environmental 17



### issues. 18


### The AABE recognizes the need for 19


### increased participation in the discussion on 20


### climate change policy by historically underserved 21


### communities and has developed specific principles 22

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### related to climate change that includes the 1


### support of mechanisms to achieve cost

- effective 2


### reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, reduction 3


### policies which do not result in a net negative 4


### impact on jobs, trade balances and the cost of 5


### goods and services. We support consistent 6



### greenho use gas emission reduction policies which 7



### seek to balance the cost of environmental 8


### improvements with the benefits of economic 9



### development , cleaner air and water. 10


### We support policies ensuring that low

11



### and fixed

- income consumers do not shoulder a 12


### disprop ortionate cost impact as a result of 13


### efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. 14


### Climate change is a real threat to the 15



### health and welfare of our most vulnerable 16


### citizens, which include the elderly, children, 17


### and people who are living in poverty realizin g 18


### there is no simple solution for addressing the 19


### climate change issue. We support the president's 20


### action plan to reduce carbon pollution and 21


### prepare our communities for the effects of 22

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### climate change. 1


### We should also continue to pursue options 2



### which incl ude the research, development, 3



### commercialization, and employment of energy 4


### efficiency, renewable energy, natural gas and 5


### other energy technologies that would be effective 6


### in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. 7



### On behalf of the American Association of 8



### Bla cks in Energy, Denver Area Chapter, I thank 9


### you for this opportunity and I would like to 10


### encourage you to continue to proactively involve 11



### the voice of African Americans and other 12


### minorities in this significant discussion. And 13



### we offer AABE as a resource a nd a collaborator. 14



### Thank you very much. 15



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 16


### Mr. Miguel? Braden Miguel? 17



### MR. MIGUEL: Hello. I once got the 18


### experience of hearing a classmate speak in class 19


### about his struggle with environmentalism. He 20



### struggled because he knew t hat even if he applied 21


### everything that he learned to reduce his carbon 22

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### footprint, he would have a long and difficult 1


### journey. But on top of that he felt like he 2


### would have changed nothing. I think back on that 3


### time I got to hear him speak occasionally fo r 4


### that valuable opinion where I think he saw the 5


### struggle as a burden on himself, I see that 6


### struggle as a burden on all of us, something we 7


### all share and eventually will affect everyone on 8



### the planet. 9


### My name is Braden Miguel and I am an 10



### environmental st udies major at the University of 11



### Colorado Boulder. I also have a minor

-- getting 12


### a minor in business. And I speak for myself, my 13


### family and my friends as well as classmates. 14


### After doing research on the clean power 15


### rule, I approve. I think it sets rea sonable 16


### goals and it gives opportunities to states to 17


### innovate and collaborate to reach those goals. I 18


### support mostly incentive and subsidy towards 19


### widespread solar. I think widespread solar is 20


### the best in terms of sustainability and it will 21



### affect

-- it will have the longest impact over 22

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### the longest period of time. It is reliable to 1



### the owner and user. 2


### My word of caution goes out in terms of 3


### as we transition from this period, as we 4



### transition, we must be careful as we internalize 5



### this carbon externalit y. 6


### Rate increases I think can have a big 7


### impact on low and middle income families in the 8



### short

- term period. I'll speak on that a little 9


### bit more with a cautionary tale about a town here 10



### in Colorado of Pueblo. 11


### Since 2010, Pueblo's energy provider has 12


### decided to invest heavily in renewables. Some 13


### might say to regard overinvesting. And during 14


### this period the people of Pueblo, since 2010, 15



### have seen a 26 percent rate increase. With the 16


### cost of restabilizing if their energy

-- if they 17



### were unable to pay and their electricity got 18


### turned off, the fees were high to turn it back on 19



### which made it more troublesome for them, and in 20


### that period of time the electricity company, 21


### Black Hills, their stock doubled and they were 22

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### able to invest heavily in their energy of the 1


### future. Some might say a good thing, but the 2


### impact could be a problem. 3



### There have been other articles written 4



### about this incident that you might want to look 5



### at for more information than I have as well as 6


### more eloquently said. And that is what I have to 7



### say. Thank you. 8


### MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Miguel. 9



### Could you

-- I have one clarifying question or 10


### request. That you submit the data on the 26 11


### percent price increase to the docket. And if 12


### you're unfamiliar with how to submit to the 13



### docket , you can check with the registration folks 14



### next door. 15



### MR. MIGUEL: Okay. 16



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 17


### Thank you both. We will go ahead and 18



### move the next couple speakers and that would be 19


### Mr. Dwayne Richards and Mark Farnsworth and if we 20



### have in the room at this time, Cleo Breeze, if 21


### you could come on up and take a seat behind the 22

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### podium. And we'll go ahead and start Mr. 1



### Richards. 2



### MR. RICHARDS: I had some prepared 3


### remarks, but I think I'm just going to toss them 4



### out and kind of ad lib here a little bit. 5


### My name is Dwayne Richards. I'm the 6


### general manager for Western Fuels Association, R

7



### i

- c

- h

- a

- r

- d

- s. 8


### We buy and deliver coal and produce coal 9


### for our members. I've been in this energy 10


### industry for 40 years. I think it's worthwhile 11



### to talk about how w e got to where we are. 12



### A lot of these were a direct result of 13


### government policies. Some misguided, but it you 14


### look back about the time I was getting out of 15


### college is when we got through our first energy 16


### crisis. We were just hitting it. And that's how 17


### I got into this industry because if you remember 18



### OPEC was established after the Arab Israeli War 19


### in 1973. This meant higher oil prices and oil 20


### could no longer really be used for generation 21


### purposes. The government wasn't building more 22

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### dams, so there wasn 't

-- a lot more generation 1


### was coming from dams. 2


### Natural gas for electricity generation 3


### was actually outlawed and probably still on the 4


### books as being outlawed. 5



### Coal was considered at that time to be 6


### our country's ace in the hole. It was what was 7


### goi ng to make us energy independent. In fact, 8


### government, you know, forest companies at that 9


### time who are holding federal coal leases, they 10


### thought they were hoarding those coal leases and 11


### forced them to develop those leases within ten 12



### years or they would lo se leases. 13


### Those are being held because people

-- 14


### well, people looked at coal gasification and 15


### potentially coal liquefaction. So coal was going 16



### to be looked at and was looked at, at that time 17


### to make us energy independent. So at that time 18



### the utilitie s only had really two options. One 19


### was to build coal plants as the economy expanded 20



### in the '70s, '80s, and '90s or build nuke. 21


### After Three Mile Island, there really 22

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### were no more nuke plants built. So coal became 1


### the foundation of the electricity provid ing 2


### system that we have, the real power behind the 3


### grid. 4


### Coal was plentiful, it was cheap and it 5



### resulted in low

- cost and reliability electricity. 6


### The coal mines and power plants provided good 7


### middle class jobs with good benefits. Employees 8



### that work in the coal mines and power plants can 9


### put their kids through college and they can live 10



### comfortable retirements afterwards. These are 11


### exactly the type of jobs that this administration 12


### said it desires, and these are the jobs that are 13


### being destroyed. 14



### So w hat is next? It looks like gas and 15



### renewables , a nd this is really by default. And 16


### the gas prices have been very volatile in the 17



### past. I've watched them over these past 40 18


### years. Gas pipelines, they explode, have been 19



### shut down, or sabotaged, there's co ld weather 20


### there's no storage of gas at power plants. If it 21


### gets interrupted, there's no generation. 22

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### But natural gas is in the line of sight 1



### for people who are

-- once the coal industry has 2


### been put out of business
, natural gas will be the 3



### next in line . Those tasks have already begun 4


### with fracking. 5


### If you want to see where we're going, 6



### let's look at Germany. Germany shut down the 7


### nuclear plants after Fukushima or shutting down 8



### the nuclear plants. Ha ve gone to heavily 9



### subsidized solar and wind. Wh ether the installed 10


### capacity of solar power in Germany only 10 11


### percent of the energy of that capacity is 12


### actually able to be produced. And wind in 13


### Germany, it's only 20 percent. Germany is 14


### building more coal plants. Germany is burning 15



### more coal today th an it burned in 2005. And 16


### because of these renewable efforts, electricity 17


### in Germany is 40 cent a kilowatt hour. What is 18


### that doing to the people in

-- what would that do 19


### to people in this country if we're paying 40 20



### cents a kilowatt hour. That's four ti mes more 21


### than we pay in the United States. Electricity 22

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### would become a luxury item. 1


### Now, we talk about jobs in the windmill 2


### industry and the solar industry, that's mainly 3


### during the construction phase and building these 4


### facilities. But the jobs your gra ndchildren and 5


### children might have that would probably be 6


### picking up dead birds on their windmills or 7


### washing the windows at the solar plant

-- y ou've 8


### driven by a windmill farm, I don't see anybody 9


### working out there. Rooftop solar collectors 10



### can't even pr ovide enough energy to run your air 11


### conditioning. 12


### So, anyway, and with all the incentives 13


### on the renewable energy, actually producing 14


### electricity from a lot of renewables is just a 15


### byproduct. The real benefit is producing with 16



### the tax benefits t hat com e out of those 17



### facilities. 18


### So, if you close all the power plants in 19


### the United States the glaciers aren't going to be 20


### coming back, and the polar bears won't be digging 21


### through garbage cans in Minneapolis in the winter 22

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### time. That's the truth. 1



### MR. JACKSON : Thank you, Mr. Richards. 2



### We have Mr.

-- if you could stay up 3



### there. 4



### Mr. Farnsworth ? 5



### MR. FARNSWORTH: My name is Mark 6



### Farnsworth, F

- a

- r

- n

- s

- w

- o

- r

- t

- h. I am the 7



### general manager of H ighline Electric Association 8


### in Holyoke, Colorado. I'd like to tha nk the EPA 9


### for the opportunity to provide my initial 10



### comments on the proposed clean power plan. 11


### Highline Electric Association was 12


### incorporated in 1938 as an electric cooperative. 13


### Highline serves over 10,750 meters, that's 4,086 14


### members. Highline is go verned by an 11

- member 15


### board of directors, headquartered in Holyoke with 16


### offices in Sterling and Ovid, Colorado. 17


### Highline provides electricity to our 18



### members in northeastern Colorado and western 19


### Nebraska. The service area covers approximately 20



### 3,700 squar e miles with 4,990 miles of overhead 21


### and underground distribution lines with 24 22

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### distribution substations. 1



### We serve residential, stock wells, small 2


### commercial, large commercial, industrial, and 3


### irrigation services. Our power supply is Tri

4



### State Generati on Transmission of which we are 5



### members that share the same concerns that are 6


### discussed by Tri

- State. 7



### Tri

- State uses a diverse mix of 8


### generation sources including coal, natural gas, 9


### hydroelectric wind, and solar power. In 10


### addition, Highline has develope d four megawatts 11


### of wasted recovery generation. We provide net 12


### metering and renewable energy rebates to our 13



### members are who are interested in renewable 14


### energy. We are working with the local irrigation 15


### district in developing a micro

- hydro project as 16



### well as a potential solar garden to meet the 17



### needs of our member s. 18


### Highline is a cooperative and all of our 19


### costs including regulations like the clean power 20


### plan are paid for by our member owners. The cost 21


### of these regulations will be on the back of all 22

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### of ou r rate classes but a large proportion will 1



### be borne by our rural rate payers. 2


### We serve barely two meters a mile and 3



### these rules will increase costs for our member 4


### owners. Of great concern is our low

- income and 5


### fixed income members. A median family spe nds 6


### about five cents out of every dollar on energy 7


### costs. Low income families spend about 20 cents. 8


### The affordable and reliable electricity our 9


### members utilize is largely coal

- fired generation 10


### which has many years of life beyond 2030. 11



### The forced early r etirement of these 12


### plants will result in expanded costs to our 13



### members. And with the lead time s to develop 14


### generation resources could also mean reliability 15



### issues. 16


### It is very unlikely that the reduction of 17


### carbon emissions from this plan will have a 18



### si gnificant impact on worldwide carbon emissions 19


### and thus any impact on climate change. 20


### The impact will simply be higher class of 21


### electricity to the people who can least afford it 22

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### as well as negative impact on the economies of 1



### rural Colorado and Nebraska. 2



### I'd like to make comments on two of the 3


### building blocks of the plan. First I would like 4


### to address the increasing amounts of renewable 5



### and nuclear energy to replace coal

- fired power. 6


### Highline now receives 20 percent, non

- carbon 7


### emitting generation from our power supplier of 8


### which 12 percent is large

- scale hydro. In my 9


### travels to Germany to explore their move to 10



### renewable energy large

- scale hydro was a part of 11


### their energy transition. 12


### In the U.S. the only hydro that counts is 13



### small

- scale hydro. Germa ny and many in the 14


### environmental community emulate understands that 15


### no matter the size of the dam, any electricity 16


### production is hydro power. We get no credit for 17



### the large

- scale hydro we utilize. 18


### The second building block that I would 19



### like to address is increasing energy efficiency. 20


### The forced increase of energy efficiency by 1.5 21



### percent annually assumes that we have not 22

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### advocated for energy efficiency. And that 1


### Highline has not provided the means for our 2


### membership to achieve increased energy 3



### effici ency. 4


### Highline and our power supplier had 5


### provided energy efficiency credits to our members 6


### for many years. Since 2005 we have provided over 7


### $600,000 in efficiency credits to our members for 8


### increasing the efficiency of end

- use motors, 9


### lighting, and app liances. Much of the low

10


### hanging fruit has been achieved. Arbitrary 11


### energy efficiency regulations will not take this 12


### into account and we get no early action credit 13


### for the energy efficiency work that has been 14



### done. 15


### It does not take regulations from the EPA 16


### for cooperatives to offer options that will make 17



### the lives of our member owners easier and more 18



### affordable. 19


### This plan does not take into account the 20


### makeup of Highline. Highline serves over 50,000 21


### horse powered motors used in compressing natural 22

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### gas, natural gas liquids, and oil. When using a 1



### number of 1.5 percent annually, you cannot take 2


### into account loads that do not have the ability 3


### to increase efficiency. 4


### When they are compressing the contents of 5


### the pipelines to move that product, they're as 6



### e fficient as possible. When those pipelines are 7


### running at capacity, they can be 30 to 40 percent 8


### of Highline's total kilowatt hours sold. 9


### When you take into account large loads 10


### just mentioned, the energy efficiency work we 11


### have done with the compoundin g effect of a 1.5 12


### percent annual requirement, we will reach a point 13


### where it is too expensive to meet the 14


### requirements of the plan. 15



### Parts of the plan are flawed and not 16


### achievable as they're designed and the clean 17


### power plan goes beyond the legal authori ties of 18



### the Clean Air Act. 19


### This puts the states of Colorado and 20


### Nebraska and Highline's member owners, farmers, 21


### irrigators, and business owners in an untenable 22

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### situation. Thank you. 1



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Farnsworth. 2



### And have Ms. Breeze and if we could just 3



### pause for a moment there. 4



### We have James Luoddle and Michael Bronner 5


### in the room, if they could go ahead and take a 6


### seat behind the podium s

. 7



### MS. BREEZE: Good afternoon. My name is 8



### Cleo Breeze and I'm a retired school 9



### administrator from D enver Public Schools. I'm 10


### here today representing Colorado Black Women for 11


### Political Action where I am the political chair. 12


### We are committed to involving black women in the 13


### entire political process. We work on those 14


### issues that are germane to our entire community. 15



### As you all know, there's a stark 16


### disparity in the United States between those who 17


### benefit from the causes of climate change and 18


### those who bear the costs of climate change. 19


### African Americans already are 20


### disproportionately burdened by health e ffects 21


### including deaths during heat waves, air 22

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### pollution, unemployment, and economic hardships, 1


### all associated with climate change. And all of 2


### those changes fall heavily on our community. 3


### Cities in Florida, Louisiana, New Jersey, 4



### New York, and North Ca rolina are drowning under 5


### rising sea levels. Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas 6


### City, Missouri, are the hardest hit by heat 7


### waves, where most of us live, or many of our 8



### African American live. 9


### The negative impacts on our communities 10


### (audio disruptions, hitting microphone with 11



### papers)

-- air pollution exposure, leads to a 12


### host of health problems. Industrial sites as 13



### Reverend Demmer mentioned earlier, most of those 14


### places are located in our communities. Many of 15


### us live near power plants, oil refineries, waste 16



### ma nagement facilities. 17


### Mercury exposure. More likely to have a 18


### high level of that again in our community. 19


### Mercury consumption increases the risk of SIDS, 20


### sudden infant death syndrome, it also affects 21


### learning disabilities in children and other 22

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### respiratory problems. 1


### Climate change is a life and death issue 2


### for the poor and community of color. Climate 3


### change is expected to affect human (audio 4


### disruption) in many ways and increases the rate 5


### of infectious diseases, respiratory illnesses 6



### that are related to air pollution and death and 7



### illnesses related to thermal extremes. 8


### Every single priority of the Black agenda 9


### is or can be linked to the changing climate, 10


### health, jobs, education, crime, and income. 11


### Climate change does not affect equally. 12



### Recently a professor of health at 13


### Berkeley who is the lead author of the Climate 14


### Gap stated that people of color, poor people will 15



### be hurt most. But I think most of us know that. 16



### I believe we need to call on our 17



### educators, ministers, non

- profits, Greek 18


### organizati ons, the Congressional Black Caucus, 19



### and you the EPA to move faster. There's an 20


### urgency about it. And I certainly hope that you 21



### will take that into consideration. 22

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### We too support the president's plan, but, 1


### again, our major concern is the urgency and not 2


### the time that we're moving at, it's like a 3


### snail's pace. And I know we're probably doing 4



### the best we can, but we need to move faster. If 5


### we protect those who are must vulnerable, we will 6



### protect all of us. 7



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 8



### Mr. Luoddle. 9



### MR. L UODDLE: Good afternoon, my name is 10



### Jim Luoddle, I am the Vice Chairman of the Denver 11


### Metro Network of the Sierra Club. We represent 12


### thousands of Sierra Club members and supporters 13


### in the Denver Metropolitan area. Our mission is 14


### to engage and organize ou r membership in 15


### environmental issues that impact them to explore, 16


### enjoy, and protect the planet. 17


### Certainly the effects of carbon driven 18


### climate change is something that we in Colorado 19


### are experiencing first hand, an ongoing drought 20



### and in its third deca de, hot summers, flooding, 21


### destructive hail, and tornados all occurring with 22

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### disturbing regularity, increased smog in our 1


### urban areas, and the impacts all of these things 2



### have on our cities, farms, and wild areas. 3



### I moved to Colorado in 2005 and in that 4


### short time I've seen startling changes to the 5



### general weather patterns on the front range. As 6


### a journalist I speak with native Coloradoans who 7


### frequently point to how spring and summer are 8


### coming earlier, how the monsoon pattern that you 9



### used to be able to set your watch by no longer 10


### exists, or in some years completely disappeared 11


### or in the case of this year has come back with a 12



### vengeance. 13


### This is particularly hard on the farmers 14


### and ranchers, especially those who practice dry 15



### land fiber culture and d epend on those patterns 16


### for their livelihood. I've seen farmers' crops 17


### dry up in superheated summers and those that 18


### survived it only to see those crops destroyed by 19


### hail and flooding. I've seen cattle ranchers 20



### forced out of business, watched their fields turn 21


### to brown, making them sell their cattle early, 22

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### underfed, underweight, and under valued. 1


### For all of us sitting in this room, and 2


### who sit down to a meal in their homes each day we 3


### feel the impacts of these weather events which 4


### with those making their living off the land is no 5


### less than catastrophic. 6


### Beef, pork, and poultry prices are at 7



### all

- time highs. The price of staples such as 8



### milk and bread also on the rise. And what of the 9


### price of our health. Breathing dirty air, 10


### drinking dirty water, poll uted by coal ash 11


### spills, eating food poisoned by mercury, and 12


### chemicals released by fossil fuels. 13


### The coal industry would argue but we'll 14


### have higher energy prices. But at what price for 15


### the rest? Higher food prices, higher healthcare 16



### costs, not only for everyone in America, but for 17


### the same coal miners that the industry professes 18



### to protect. 19



### Coal miners who make no where near what 20


### they did a generation ago. Coal miners who are 21


### fewer in numbers than they were a generation ago. 22

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### Not because we built a solar farm in Colorado 1


### Springs, but because of mechanization of their 2


### trade. The coal industry has no more loyalty for 3


### their employees than the day's work that they can 4


### pull out of them. But then, again, only until 5


### they can be replaced by a machine. 6



### I'm also a member of the Colorado Trail 7



### Foundation. We maintain the trail from Denver to 8


### Durango, hundreds of dedicated people who work 9


### with the United States Forest Service to give up 10


### their time freely to do the back

- breaking work of 11


### keeping the trail f ree of fallen trees and fixing 12


### erosion problems. 13


### Those of us like myself who are 14


### designated trail adopters see the impacts of 15


### climate changes as few others do, beetle kill 16



### brought about by Colorado's decades' long drought 17


### have reeked havoc in the Rocky Mo untain forests. 18


### A great amount of my maintenance teams' time is 19


### spent just clearing the trees that fall across 20


### the trail each year from that infestation. You 21


### can walk for miles among trees that have died 22

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### from insect predation or simply withered away 1



### from the lack of water. Every one of these trees 2


### are a danger to backpackers and day hikers who 3


### simply want to enjoy our disappearing wild areas. 4



### The past several years have also seen 5



### those same trees fuel the wildfires that have 6



### ravaged across Colorado and many other western 7



### states. Sections of the trail had to be closed 8


### last year because it was too dangerous to pass 9



### through those areas. 10



### On the other side of the coin, are the 11


### effects of heavy storms and flooding. We've seen 12


### damage to the trail which ha s our work crews 13


### working constantly to catch up, the damage of 14


### early runoff and flooding this year will keep us 15


### working for years to come. 16


### While some may call trail safety for 17


### backpackers a first world problem, we simply call 18


### it trail safety. 19



### These pro blems are not isolated to the 20


### trail itself, every national park, every 21


### designated wilderness, state parks, city park, 22

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### and community open space face the same problems. 1



### It costs us real tax dollars to maintain and 2


### repair the vast wilderness spaces that were given 3


### to us by the likes of Theodore Roosevelt, David 4



### Brower, and Steven Mather. They're a symbol of 5


### the heights of greatness and the unique lands of 6


### which America possess. Can we continue to do 7


### nothing? I say that price is too high. 8



### Thank you. 9



### MR. J ACKSON: Thank you. 10



### Mr. Bronner? 11


### MR. BRONNER: My name is Michael Bronner, 12


### I am the owner of Harlequin's Gardens Plant 13


### Nursery in Boulder County. 14


### I believe that nobody should be exempt 15


### from the Clean Air Act. Reducing carbon 16


### emissions should be a hig h priority for all 17


### businesses and private individuals in the 21st 18



### century. Our nurse ry is a member of the Colorado 19


### nursery and greenhouse association. Weather has 20


### a huge impact on our nursery and on the 21


### landscaping industry as well. 22

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### 2012 was the hotte st year on record and 1


### the worst drought nationally in 50 years. We 2


### can't afford many years like that and neither can 3



### our planet. 4


### One of the biggest trends in the last 5


### five years has been home

- grown food. But when 6



### temperatures are over 85 degrees, plan t 7


### metabolism shuts down and crops don't develop. 8



### This is bad for business and bad for fresh local 9



### food. Heat and drought often go together and 10


### when cities enact watering restrictions, not only 11


### do our profits plummet, but plants start dying 12



### and trees are the most vulnerable plants under 13


### watering restrictions and take a long, long time 14



### to grow back. And the trees are extremely 15


### valuable to save cooling costs in the summer. 16



### In 2002 we saw what happens when we don't 17



### get our regular snowpack and people can' t water 18


### their landscapes and vegetables. They put a lot 19


### of green industry people out of business and 20


### trees died. So we want the power companies to 21



### reduce carbon emissions so our climate doesn't 22

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### heat up so much. 1


### Yes, the costs of limiting carbon 2



### pollut ion will get passed on to us, but these 3


### costs are far less than we will be paying for 4


### cooling our homes and offices; less than for 5


### shipping in food we can't grow, and far less than 6


### the cost to our quality of life. 7


### I've experienced 118 degrees in India a nd 8


### I've seen how people have to live in Phoenix. We 9



### don't want that here. At our nursery we source 10


### our plants and soil products locally to reduce 11


### carbon emissions from long

- distance trucking. 12



### Our greenhouses are heated by solar and 13



### geothermal. We use o nly organic fertilizers 14


### since highly potent greenhouse gas nitrous oxide 15


### is a byproduct of making chemical fertilizer. 16


### These carbon savings that we are accomplishing at 17


### our nursery are tiny compared to what a coal

18


### fired power plant can do to reduce carbon in our 19



### atmosphere. But we all have to do our part to 20


### keep our planet livable for our kids, our 21


### grandchildren and for our grandchildren; right? 22

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### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 1


### Okay. The next speakers are Ed Win g field 2


### and Monique Dyers, if you could please com e on 3



### up. And behind them, if you could take a seat 4


### behind the podium, Rosemary Harris Lytle and Maya 5


### Wheeler if you're in the room, please come on up. 6


### And just a reminder to please spell your 7


### name before you start speaking. 8


### MR. WINFIELD: My name is Ed Wingfield, 9



### last name W

- i

- n

- g

- f

- i

- e

- l

- d. 10


### Again my name is Ed Wingfield and I 11



### represent the Colorado Black Chamber of Commerce 12


### Foundation, the generation

- wide or millennium 13


### entrepreneur, and more importantly I represent 14



### myself as a supporter of the propose d rules to 15


### cut carbon dioxide pollution. 16


### As a small business owner, naturally I 17


### quickly turned to the employment and economic 18


### impacts of such efforts. And what I found was 19


### about five different studies regarding job loss 20


### due to such changes, and about fiv e different 21


### studies on job creation due to innovation and 22

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### green energy. Some showing a net job loss, and 1


### some showing a net job gain. Now, I'm not here 2



### today to say that these proposed changes won't 3


### have an economic impact, because they will. We 4



### all kno w that some jobs will be lost. We all 5


### know that some jobs will be created, and the 6


### ultimate reality is that it probably won't be as 7


### bad as some of us think. And it won't be as good 8


### as some of us think. But while many of us are 9



### focused on the economic im pact of such proposed 10


### changes, there are people who are losing their 11


### lives every day. People whose health is 12


### suffering, air and water quality are diminishing. 13


### Families are losing their homes and businesses to 14


### extreme weather. Entire ecosystems are being 15


### affected and the list goes on. 16


### Yes, it's hard to ignore the potential 17


### economic impacts of these changes. But it is 18


### even harder to ignore the effects that climate 19


### change and carbon dioxide pollution will have on 20


### the people we love. The quality of life we want 21


### our grandchildren to enjoy and the ecosystem that 22

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### is responsible for our very being. 1



### As people we have always been able to 2


### recover from economic hardship and we should 3


### trust that if this has a negative impact on our 4


### economy that it will only be te mporary. I know 5


### that the changes we make today that improve 6


### climate change, carbon dioxide pollution, et 7


### cetera, will have a positive and lasting effect 8


### on our lives in generations to come. 9


### In my personal opinion, and as someone 10



### who wants to leave this w orld a better place, the 11



### long

- term benefits outweigh the potential short

12



### terms costs. I encourage us to make the 13



### necessary changes now for the greater good of our 14



### future and allow innovation, creative minds, and 15


### new business to fill in the gaps. 16



### Thank yo u. 17



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 18


### MS. DYERS: Good afternoon. My name is 19


### Monique Dyers, last name D as in dovetail, y

- e

- r

20



### s. And I am a renewable energy consultant. 21



### I also serve as a board member of 22

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### Colorado's Utilities Consumer Board and am a 1



### supporter of President Obama's climate change 2


### plan and EPA's reduction in carbon emissions. 3


### I would like to note that my opinions 4



### stated today are that of my own as an energy 5


### consultant and may or may not reflect the opinion 6



### of Colorado's Utilities Consumer Board. 7



### F rom a technical perspective the 8


### combustion of fossil fuels to generate 9


### electricity is the single largest source of CO2 10


### emissions in the nation, accounting for nearly 40 11


### percent of the total U.S. CO2 emissions and 31 12


### percent of total U.S. greenhouse gas emi ssions. 13


### For the first time in history atmospheric 14


### carbon dioxide levels rose above 400 parts per 15


### million in 2013 and again March of 2014. 16


### To keep emissions from rising further, 17


### which could lead to catastrophic damages, 18



### substantial reduction in CO2 emissi ons will be 19


### required which is why the climate change plan is 20


### a necessity. 21


### Production of electricity from renewable 22

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### energy sources such as wind and solar are less 1


### destructive to the environment than energy 2


### production through burning of fossil fuels like 3



### oi l, natural gas and coal because renewable 4


### energy facilities produce much less emissions of 5



### greenhouse gases and other harmful pollutants as 6


### arsenic, lead and mercury. 7


### Additionally, renewable energy production 8


### may be more cost effective and efficient tha n 9



### traditional methods because once infrastructure 10


### is built, the amount of energy produced is quite 11


### stable for the remainder of that system's 12


### lifespan. 13



### As we know, most states currently have 14


### renewable portfolio standards requiring utilities 15



### to source a c ertain amount from renewable energy 16


### sources with Colorado being one of the first 17


### states to create a renewable portfolio standard 18


### with a target of 30 percent by the year of 2030. 19



### Further to our attempts to reduce CO2 20


### emissions I applaud the efforts of the U.S. 21


### Department of Energy which announced the issuing 22

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### of a loan guarantee program of up to $4 billion 1


### supporting the following technologies, advanced 2


### grid integration and storage, drop in bio

- fuels, 3


### waste to energy projects, energy efficiency 4


### improvement p rojects, and projects that would 5


### enhance existing hydroelectric facilities. 6



### It is for these reasons that I am in 7


### support of EPA's limitation of CO2 emissions from 8


### power plants. To do nothing means that we risk 9


### the health of our community, to do something 10


### means we offer better air quality, reduction in 11


### cardiac and respiratory conditions and we leave 12



### the environment in a condition which is better 13


### utilized for future generations to come. 14



### Thank you. 15



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 16


### MS. LYTLE: I'm Rosemary Harris Lytle, L

17



### y

- t

- l

- e. President of the NAACP, Colorado, 18


### Montana, Wyoming State Area Conference. 19



### The state conference coordinates the 20


### civil rights and social justice activities of the 21



### NAACP's 23 chartered units in our three states. 22

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### The NAACP is headquartere d in Baltimore, Maryland 1


### and is the nation's oldest and largest civil 2


### rights organization. 3


### Thank you for the opportunity to testify 4


### at these important proceedings. And we also 5


### thank President Barack Obama for initiating 6


### policy and public dialogue on thi s very critical 7


### issue of climate change. 8



### The NAACP has a five

- point strategic game 9


### changer initiative and climate justice is central 10



### to it. 11



### In our three states NAACPers have spoken 12



### out for clean air in the media and on social 13


### media. Our NAACP youth an d college division 14


### members have provided volunteer services to the 15


### cleanup efforts of the black forest fires. And 16


### the NAACP is now organizing, along with our 17


### partner, the Green Cities Coalition, interest 18


### groups in subjects like community gardens and 19



### texti le recycling. 20


### Earlier this year our national office 21


### released the report "Coal Blooded" which grades 22

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### states on the impact of coal

- fire emissions on 1


### its communities and particularly on communities 2



### of color. 3



### I was truly saddened when I saw that 4



### Colorado 's grade in the Coal Blooded report was 5


### F. A state that prizes its physical beauty and 6


### that seemingly values the good health and full 7


### enjoyment of its residents had received a grade 8



### of F. 9


### As the report points out and as we know 10


### fully, 68 percent of Lati nos and 75 percent of 11



### African Americans in Colorado live in areas where 12


### air quality is an issue. Our children and our 13


### elders are disproportionately impacted by 14


### pollution and by its effects including 15


### respiratory illnesses like asthma. Besides the 16



### obvious issues, we call this climate injustice. 17


### African Americans and other people of 18


### color have long been advocates of sustainability 19



### and conservation. We had to be. Now we know 20


### that we must take these critical steps to cut 21


### carbon pollution because of our chi ldren and our 22

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### elders and because of the way it impacts working 1


### families and because of our obligation to future 2


### generations. 3



### We must have more renewable energy, more 4


### energy efficiency, and increasingly innovative 5


### policies that will cut carbon pollution wh ile 6


### creating jobs, sustaining jobs and creating 7


### opportunities for African Americans, for Latinos, 8


### and for all Americans. Thank you so much. 9


### MR. JACKSON: Ms. Lytle, just a quick 10


### question for you. 11


### MS. LYTLE: Certainly. 12


### MR. JACKSON: Do you know if the national 13


### office plans to submit the Coal Blooded report to 14



### the docket of this rulemaking? 15


### MS. LYTLE: Yesterday our National 16



### Climate Justice director, Jackie Patterson, 17


### testified before this panel. If she did not 18


### submit that we can certainly make certain that 19


### today you receive a copy of the Coal Blooded 20


### National Report. 21



### MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you. 22

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### MS. LYTLE: Will do. Thank you. 1



### MR. JACKSON: Ms. Wheeler. 2


### MS. WHEELER: I'm going to be reading 3


### this off of my phone. 4


### Good afternoon. My name is May a Wheeler, 5


### I am the president of Colorado B lack Women for 6


### Political Action. My last name is Wheeler, W

- h

7



### e

- e

- l

- e

- r, first name Maya, M

- a

- y

- a. 8


### Communities across Colorado are seeing 9


### and feeling the impacts of climate change from 10



### increased health risks lik e asthma attacks and 11


### respiratory disease to devastating fires and 12


### floods. Sixty

- eight percent of Latinos and 75 13


### percent of Blacks live in Colorado where the air 14


### quality in their neighborhoods are not up to par. 15



### Nine counties in Colorado are out of 16


### compli ance with air pollution regulations, 17



### Denver, Arapaho, Adams, Jeffco, Douglas, Boulder, 18



### Larimer, Wells, and Broomfield. 19


### Air pollution impacts our health. It 20


### increases rates of asthma, respiratory illness, 21



### economy

-- our economy, environment, and overall 22

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### success of our communities. 1


### It was mentioned earlier, according to 2


### the president's task force that African American 3


### children are twice as likely to be hospitalized 4


### and four times likely to die from asthma as white 5



### children. 6


### In Colorado alone, air pollut ion from 7


### dirty fossil fuel contributes to 4,300 hospital 8


### admissions for asthma in 2011 which averaged 9


### almost $20,000 per each stay. Not only do 10


### families have costly hospital bills to manage, 11


### the numerous days kids missed from school and 12


### parents missed fro m work also add up. 13


### Climate change is a civil right issue. 14


### We are seeing its impacts in our own communities 15



### in the forms of record

- breaking temperatures, 16


### floods, droughts, hurricanes, and the list goes 17



### on. 18


### When your child has to breathe air that 19



### is not up to par, and incurs asthma at a higher 20


### rate, it's a civil rights issue. When 21



### unprecedented weather disasters devastate the 22

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### forest neighborhoods in places like New Orleans, 1


### New Jersey, and New York, it is a civil rights 2



### issue. 3



### When farmers in far

- away lands cannot 4



### feed their families because the rain will no 5


### longer come, it is a civil rights issue. 6


### In the civil rights movement we marched 7


### hand in hand, facing dogs and fire hoses, risking 8


### imprisonment, and worse, for the sake of future 9


### generations. Th e same question is in front of us 10


### today when it comes to climate change. What are 11


### we willing to sacrifice? What are we willing to 12



### do personally to hand down a better world to our 13



### children. 14



### Today I'm here to ask you to please 15


### support the clean air bill

. 16



### Thank you. 17



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 18



### Okay. Our next speakers are Rue Mapp and 19


### Robert Bowen, if you could please come on up to 20


### the podium. 21



### MS. MAPP: Good afternoon. My name is 22

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### Rue Mapp and I want to thank you for the 1


### opportunity to submit formal t estimony regarding 2



### EPA's proposal for a clean power plan. 3


### My name is Rue Mapp, as I mentioned, 4



### spelled R

- u

- e last name M

- a

- p

- p. I'm the founder 5



### and CEO of Outdoor Afro that celebrates and 6


### inspires African American connections to nature. 7



### I am also on th e National Wildlife 8


### Federation's California Advisory Committee. And 9



### I live in beautiful Oakland, California, known 10


### for its mild climate, its towering redwoods, its 11


### cultural diversity, abundant wildlife, and their 12


### habitat. And so today I have traveled a g reat 13


### distance to express my strong support for EPA's 14


### historic action to combat climate change by 15


### setting limits on carbon pollution from existing 16



### power plants. 17


### So the primary focus of Outdoor Afro is 18


### to reengage black people with nature and our 19


### heritage w ithin it. We work to disrupt the 20


### perception that people who look like me do not 21


### have a relationship to nature or care about 22

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### wildlife conservation, and climate change. This, 1


### as we heard from the previous testimony is simply 2



### untrue. 3


### Black people remain t his country's 4


### largest racial minority with spending power 5


### estimated at $1 trillion estimated for 2015. 6


### With our vote and dollars, we not only 7



### demonstrate that we care about our environment, 8


### but also our frequently on the front lines with 9


### our livelihoods g reatly affected by a changing 10



### climate. 11


### I believe our warming climate is posing 12



### one of the greatest threats to humans and 13


### wildlife today. And I applaud the EPA for taking 14


### action to combat the root of the problem, carbon 15


### pollution. 16


### Personally, I've witn essed the damage of 17


### extreme weather fueled by climate change close to 18


### home in California. At this very moment my home 19


### state is in severe drought and a fire rages on in 20


### Yosemite, a crown jewel of the national park 21



### system. 22

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### This current fire ignites the clo se 1


### memory of last year's historic rim fire that 2


### destroyed scores of homes, historic landmarks and 3


### camps for generations of urban youth and 4


### families. This current fire has already required 5


### military resource to stem the loss of property 6



### and wildlife habitat and assist in the evacuation 7


### of local residents. And unfortunately this fire 8


### has curbed the ability to recreate in this 9


### pristine wilderness during peak summer 10


### opportunity for many working families. 11


### Fortunately through Outdoor Afro in 12



### California and arou nd the country I'm able to 13


### witness the wonder and magic of children and 14


### families engaging in the wide spaces. And right 15


### here I brought with me the face of Emma 16


### experiencing snow for the first time with her 17



### mother Barbara in California's Sierras in the 18



### win ter of 2012. As you know, time and nature, 19


### like this treasured experience right here, is a 20


### spark that can help ignite a passion for 21



### conservation for a lifetime. 22

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### Unfortunately, this same event, this same 1


### experience was not able to be shared last winter 2



### be cause of record low snowfall that cancelled 3



### this event and foreshadowed our current severe 4


### drought and fire conditions. 5


### You can see a glimpse of why I applaud 6


### and feel so relieved by the possibility of the 7



### EPA to take on much needed steps to reverse the 8



### c ourse we are on. The U.S. EPA's clean power 9


### plan is a major step in the right direction. 10


### This plan will help speed the way toward a future 11


### in which we invest more in wildlife friendly 12



### resources of clean energy and lessen fuels that 13


### pollute our air and wa ter and harm our global 14



### climate. 15


### As you finalize this standard, I ask that 16


### you work to ensure that it achieves the deepest 17


### reductions possible by requiring states to use 18



### wildlife and human

- friendly renewable energy and 19


### energy efficiency and not simply m ore natural gas 20


### burning. 21



### California can and should do more to 22

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### reduce energy demands with energy efficiency and 1



### the EPA should strengthen the standard to reflect 2


### this potential. 3


### So thank you for the opportunity to 4


### comment today and Outdoor Afro, in my r ole as 5


### part of the advisory for the National Wildlife 6



### Federation in California, we look forward to 7


### working with you to finalize and implement the 8


### clean power plan. I feel confident that you will 9


### do everything you can to ensure it stays strong 10



### through the process and wildlife and future 11


### generations are counting on your leadership. 12



### Thank you very much. 13



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Mr. Bowen. 14


### MR. BOWEN: My name is Robert Bowen, B

- o

15



### w

- e

- n. For the last three and a half years I've 16


### been writing a national col umn for Examiner.com 17



### on green energy. So I've spent hundreds and 18


### hundreds of hours literally of researching the 19


### issue around climate change and around energy. 20



### In the 1980s I was a member of the House 21


### of Representatives in Colorado for three terms 22

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### and way back then I introduced multiple pieces of 1


### legislation to deal with SOX and NOX, and 2


### particulates and carbon from utilities. I didn't 3



### get very far. Fortunately the EPA and the 4


### federal government dealt with acid rain and SOX 5


### and NOX but nobody really did anything about 6


### particulates and carbon and still haven't, but at 7


### least you're trying to do it now. 8


### I agree with some of the other speakers 9


### that this whole thing of climate change besides 10


### being destructive for our species and our planet 11


### really is an unequ al damager. And I think it's a 12


### civil rights issue, but I think it's a human 13


### rights issue because as people have said, climate 14


### change and the effects of climate change hit the 15



### people at the bottom much harder, much sooner, 16


### and with much more tragic results than it does 17



### people at the top. 18


### Sure, climate change is going to hurt 19


### executives of coal companies, owners of coal 20


### companies, it's going to hurt shareholders of 21


### utility companies, but you know they have flood 22

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### insurance and they've got fire insurance, the y 1


### have big bank accounts, and they're the first 2


### ones to get a FEMA check when a disaster happens 3


### and they rebuild. 4


### Poor people seldom have flood insurance, 5



### often don't have hazard insurance. Most of them 6



### are renters and they're the last ones to get FEM A 7


### checks when a disaster happens. 8


### Big corporate farmers can get all kinds 9


### of crop, you know, relief from the federal 10



### government. Smaller famers can't. People 11


### growing their own food can't. These things 12



### affect people at the bottom, they affect people 13



### l ike Native Americans, Blacks, Hispanics, poor 14


### people much harder. And nobody is looking out 15



### for them so the federal government needs to look 16


### out for them. But climate change is going to 17


### kill all of us. We have a sense of urgency. 18


### Just while you've been working on these 19


### rules and going around the country ice is melting 20


### at both of the poles, the oceans are getting 21


### warmer, the earth is getting warmer the dome of 22

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### pollution over the earth is getting thicker and 1


### all of these things are getting worse while we' re 2


### talking about doing it. These rules should have 3



### been done at the same time that NOX and SOX were 4


### dealt with. They weren't, you're doing it now, 5



### you're to be applauded. 6


### I want to speak specifically though about 7


### a couple of things in the regulations th at 8


### concern me. And, again, I support them, I'm glad 9


### you're doing them. I understand the arch of the 10


### possible and I wasn't in government. But I'm 11


### concerned that you're using a standard that's a 12


### few years old instead of using 2012 or '13 as 13



### your base. Be cause I think it weakens the net 14


### result of what the rule does. But, again, if 15


### this is all we can get I support all we can get. 16


### Another thing that concerns me is giving 17


### the states too much flexibility. I understand 18


### that that's a big selling point maybe o f getting 19


### the rules approved, but it concerns me. Why does 20


### it concern me? We have a little bill you may 21



### have heard of called "The Affordable Care Act" 22

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### and that bill the Supreme Court gave states the 1


### option to opt out of the expansion of Medicare. 2



### So wha t did 30 out of the 50 states do with 3


### Republican governors and legislators, opted out 4


### of the expansion of Medicare leaving the people 5


### of those states unprotected by this federal law. 6


### If you give those same 30 governors, 7



### those same 30 speakers of the Hous e, those same 8


### 30 Senate presidents too much flexibility for 9


### this rule, they will do to that rule what they 10


### did to Medicare expansion

-- Medicaid expansion. 11



### So I'm a little bit concerned about that. 12


### So as you go forward, I think you really 13



### need to be dili gent to make sure that flexibility 14


### doesn't mean obstruction. And beyond that I 15


### support it and it's emergency, so please get it 16



### done. 17



### Thank you. 18



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 19



### We'll go ahead and call the next 20


### speakers. We have Michael Holtz and Jeff Dayett 21


### up next and if we could also get Steve Stevens 22

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### and Nancy Stalker to take seats behind the 1


### podium, that would be helpful. 2



### MR. HOLTZ: Michael Holtz, Light Mover

. 3



### Michael and Holtz, H

- o

- l

- t

- z. 4


### I am pleased to offer my views today on 5



### your clean power ru le. 6



### For over 40 years I've been employed by 7



### or have founded and managed energy

- related 8


### research, designed consulting and manufacturing 9


### companies including the American Institute of 10


### Architects Research Corporation, the solar energy 11



### research institute here in Golden, Architectural 12


### and Energy Corporation of Boulder, and Light 13



### Mover LLC in Lewisville. 14


### I've engaged in all aspects of energy and 15


### environmental research, development, urban 16


### planning and architectural design. I'm here 17


### today to give my whole hearted support and strong 18



### endorsement of the proposed EPA clean power plan 19



### rule. 20


### As one who has devoted his professional 21


### career to improving the energy efficiency and 22

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### increasing the use of renewable sources of energy 1


### to induce environmental impacts on the bui lt 2


### environment, I can say that we are more than 30 3


### years late in proposing these CO2 reduction 4


### requirements and unfortunately we are seeing the 5


### dramatic and disastrous impact of this delay. 6


### Today in a few minutes I would like to 7


### encourage all the national , state, and local 8


### policy makers and electric utilities, industrial 9


### concerns and other impacted by this proposed rule 10


### to address equally the supply or source side of 11


### the equation equally with the demand side of the 12


### equation. That is, the proposed rule has two 13



### elements, the state

- specific emission

- based CO2 14


### reduction goals and the guidelines for 15


### development, submission, and implementation of 16



### state plans. 17


### The first element lays out the state

18


### specific emissions reduction targets or goals, 19



### while the second e lement defines the requirements 20


### for development, submission, and implementation 21


### of state plans for achieving those goals. 22

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### And I'll take a break here to agree with 1



### the former Congressman, that the state 2


### flexibility is a huge issue in terms of making 3



### surv eillance that they create effective and 4


### lasting CO2 reduction targets and they don't 5


### obstruct what is being attempted here as the 6


### necessary climate reduction

-- carbon reduction

. 7


### The beauty of the proposed rule is that 8


### it is performance

- based, not prescr iptive and 9


### allows states to meet their specific performance 10


### target in any manner of their choosing so long as 11


### they're effective and lasting. This performance

12



### based approach allows states to address the 13


### energy supply side as well as the energy demand 14



### side opportunities within their specific states. 15



### Most Americans are unaware that the 16


### building sector is responsible for approximately 17


### 48 percent of the total U.S. energy consumption. 18


### According to the U.S. Energy Information Agency 19



### the total U.S. annual energy consumption in 2013 20


### was 95.1 quadrillion BTUs. The building sector 21



### consumed 45.2 quads of that total. 22

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### Transportation sector was second at 26.7 quads, 1


### while the industry consumed only 23.2 quads. 2


### As a consequence the building sector 3



### accounts for 44.6 of all CO2 emissions generating 4


### about 2,500 million metric tons CO2 equivalent. 5


### The building sector far exceeds the 6


### transportation and industry sectors in the amount 7


### of CO2 emissions which generate only 1,800 8


### million metric tons for transportation and 1,116 9


### metric tons for industry rather. 10



### Relevant to the clean power plan rule the 11


### building sector would again, according to the 12


### U.S. Energy Information Administration, consume 13


### 75 percent of all the electricity generated in 14


### the U.S. The industry sector consume s 25 percent 15


### and the annual generation for transportation is 16



### less than 1 percent. 17



### It's pretty clear where I'm headed 18


### witness that this analysis. The building sector 19


### is the single largest consumer of energy in the 20


### U.S., the largest emitter of CO2 and the largest 21


### user of electricity. Consequently it would 22

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### behoove states in preparing their compliance 1



### plans to look closely at the energy use of the 2


### building sector in their states and to propose 3


### strategies for improving the energy efficiency of 4



### new and existin g buildings and a transition to 5



### renewable sources. These strategies could 6


### include financial incentives for integrating 7


### energy efficiency technology into existing 8


### residential and commercial buildings, more 9


### stringent building energy codes, home and 10



### commerci al building and energy rating and 11


### labeling system, designer education, and so on. 12


### The point I'm making is that this rule 13



### does not dictate how states must meet the CO2 14


### reduction targets and allows for great 15


### flexibility an innovation. However, I would urge 16


### all states to seriously take a closer look at 17



### both energy supply

- side opportunities and energy 18



### demand

- side opportunities. 19


### My last comment is to those who oppose 20


### this EPA clean power plan rule. I encourage them 21


### to consider the ancient native American p arable, 22

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### "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, 1



### we borrow it from our children." 2



### We have run out of time to solve the 3


### climate change crisis. We are now in a desperate 4



### race to save the planet. 5


### I appreciate the opportunity to talk to 6



### you and an swer any questions you may have. 7



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Holtz. 8



### Mr. Dayett. 9



### MR. DAYETT: Hi. Good afternoon. Thank 10


### you for the opportunity to testify today in 11


### support of strong carbon pollution standards for 12


### existing power plants. 13


### My name is Je ff Dayett and I am the 14


### assistant Director for Energy Research at the 15



### Union of Concerned Scientists. UCS is the 16


### nation's leading science

- based non

- profit working 17


### for a healthy environment and a safer world. 18



### First, on behalf of the more than 9,400 19



### supporte rs in Colorado, and our more than 450,000 20


### supporters across the nation, I want to say that 21


### we strongly support the Environmental Protection 22

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### Agency's efforts to limit carbon emissions from 1



### fossil fuels

-- excuse me

-- from fossil fuel 2



### powered plants under t he Clean Air Act. 3



### Human

- induced climate change is already 4


### having a significant impact on our planet that 5


### are being felt by families, businesses, and 6



### communities here in the United States and all 7



### around the world. If we collectively fail to make 8



### deep reduc tions in our carbon emissions we will 9


### greatly increase risks of serious economic, 10


### health, and environmental damage from accelerated 11


### seal level rise, storm surges, heat waves, 12


### droughts, wildfires, more frequent heavy 13


### downpours, and increased hurricane inten sity. 14


### Our children and future generations will 15


### be left facing the consequences caused by our 16


### failure to act today. 17


### These impacts are a direct consequence of 18


### the increasing concentration of greenhouse gases 19


### like carbon dioxide in our planet's atmospher e. 20


### Power plants are the single largest source of CO2 21


### emissions in the United States representing about 22

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### 40 percent of the total. 1


### Heat productions and emissions from the 2


### electric power sector are therefore critical to 3


### our overall efforts to mitigate climat e change. 4



### These facts compel us to act and to act 5


### decisively in accelerating the transition to a 6



### truly low

- carbon economy we must recognize the 7


### regional differences and complexities within the 8


### electric power system and take full advantage of 9



### the diverse s et of cost effective climate

10


### friendly resources that we have at our disposal. 11



### The proposed carbon standard of the clean 12


### power plan for existing power plants does just 13


### that by providing a sound and defensible 14


### framework for reducing emissions from the 15



### elec tricity sector. Specifically UCS supports 16


### EPA's proposal to incorporate outside the fence 17


### measures within the building block approach for 18


### reducing emissions. 19


### This provides a flexible framework for 20



### states to decide how best to achieve their 21



### emission rat e reduction targets cost effectively 22

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### including the use of renewable energy and energy 1


### efficiency . By allowing states to use renewables 2


### and efficiency for compliance, it is a smart 3


### strategy that builds on the successes of what 4


### states are already doing and have been doing for 5



### more than a decade. 6



### Renewable resources such as wind, solar, 7


### and geothermal emit no carbon and are delivering 8


### safe, reliable, and affordable power to consumers 9


### throughout the United States today. Combined 10


### with investments of energy ef ficiency they can 11


### stabilize electricity prices, save consumers 12


### money, improve public health, and strengthen 13


### state and local economies. They also help 14


### diversify the electric power mix and could reduce 15


### the risks of relying too heavily on natural gas 16



### for our power supply, something that many states 17


### today are moving towards. 18



### UCS also supports the EPA's proposal to 19


### allow the option for states to comply on a multi

20


### state regional basis. This not only rewards 21


### early actors like the northeast states 22

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### participating in the regional greenhouse gas 1


### initiative, but also creates an opportunity for 2


### new and/or expanded multi

- state collaborations 3



### that can drive down emissions at even lower 4



### costs. 5



### However, UCS believes that the EPA is not 6


### being ambitious enough in the overa ll result of 7


### the 30 percent reduction in emissions in 2030 8


### relative to 2005. Our own UCS analysis shows 9


### that we can affordably and reliably achieve twice 10


### that level, 60 percent reduction in emissions in 11



### 2030 relative to 2005. 12



### One of the areas where the d raft standard 13


### can be strengthened is within the renewables 14


### building block. While EPA sought to determine 15


### the best system of emission reductions under each 16


### of the four building blocks in establishing 17


### emission rate reduction goals for each state, 18


### what is pr oposed under the renewables building 19


### block is really more of an average system of 20


### emission reductions. It seriously under 21


### estimates the true potential for renewable energy 22

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### to cost effectively cut carbon emissions. 1


### Aggregated nationally, EPA's state renew able 2


### energy targets result in little more renewables 3



### deployment by 2030 than what the U.S. Energy 4



### Information Administration under its business as 5


### usual projections. 6


### In fact, six states already had enough 7


### renewable generation in 2013 to fulfill their 8



### rene wable energy building block target for 2013. 9



### The same goes for the 29 states that have 10


### renewable electricity standards in place; 21 of 11


### them, including here in Colorado would have to do 12


### little or nothing more than to achieve the 13


### current RES targets in orde r to meet or exceed 14


### the proposed targeted EPA use to calculate their 15


### emission reductions requirements for 2030. 16



### In conclusion, I would like to commend 17


### EPA's efforts to design a sensible and flexible 18


### standard for reducing carbon emissions from 19


### existing pow er plants and for engaging in 20


### transparent rulemaking process that is open to 21



### all stakeholders. As the EPA works towards the 22

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### 2015

-- June 2015 deadline for finalizing the 1


### rules, I urge you to build on the proposed 2


### framework by increasing the overall emissi on 3


### reductions through strong state targets. A 4


### strong power plant carbon standard is critical to 5


### protecting the health and well

- being of our 6



### families and communities as well as that of 7


### future generations. Thank you. 8



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Dayett. I 9


### have one quick question for you. You mentioned 10


### that UCS had their own analysis on a more 11


### accelerated timeline for the reductions, do you 12


### guys plan to submit that to the

-- 13


### MR. DAYETT: Yes, we'll be submitting 14


### detailed comments by October 16th. We'll include 15



### that. 16



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 17



### Ms. Stalker? 18


### MS. STALKER: My name is Nancy Stalker. 19


### I'm speaking today through the Volunteer 20


### Conservation Committee of the Audubon Society of 21



### Greater Denver , generally called Denver Audubon. 22

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### Denver Audubon is a grassroots 1


### conservation organization with about 3,000 2



### members in the metro Denver area. We are also a 3


### certified chapter of the National Audubon 4


### Society. 5


### Our mission is to connect people with 6


### nature through education, conservation and 7



### research. Thank you for this opportunity to 8



### speak. 9



### Denver Audubon supports the EPA's 10


### proposed carbon pollution emission guidelines for 11


### electric utility generating units for both 12


### existing sta tionary sources and for modified and 13



### reconstruction station sources. 14



### We appre ciate the flexibility you're 15


### offering the states by letting them figure out 16



### how to reach the goals that have been set for 17


### them. Personally I was surprised to see how 18



### badly Colorado rates compared to other states 19



### because I've heard so much about all the ef forts 20


### we're making to reduce pollution. 21


### Climate change is happening. Our world 22

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### has been getting hotter and the rate of heating 1


### is increasing. During the 20th century, the 2


### temperature of the earth's surface increased 1.08 3


### degree Fahrenheit. Since the 21st century began 4



### the temperature of the earth's surface has 5


### increased another .25 degrees Fahrenheit, nearly 6


### double the average rate of temperature increase 7


### over the previous century. 8



### The health, comfort, and environmental 9


### impacts of such increases are appalling as the 10


### EPA laid out in the information supplied with 11


### this proposal. Controlling carbon dioxide 12


### emissions and the related heating of our earth is 13



### essential for the well

- being of humans and for 14


### the ecological systems of species we depend on as 15



### wel l as the ones that we just enjoy. 16



### In addition to the health, environment, 17



### and food supply concerns that should be shared by 18


### all people regarding climate change Denver 19



### Audubon has a number of Colorado or western, 20


### southwestern specific concerns. Although 21


### rainfall may not change in most parts of 22

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### Colorado, the rate of evaporation will increase 1


### as temperatures rise. This will routinely 2


### increase the evaporative losses from the surfaces 3



### of our rivers, lakes, and reservoirs. It also 4



### means the amount of water needed to maintain our 5


### ecosystems and agriculture is increased. 6


### As Colorado has experienced in the recent 7


### past, catastrophic weather events like floods, 8


### droughts, wildfires, will be even more common and 9



### more intense. 10


### Colorado could lose a number of high 11


### altitude native wildlife and plant species. Just 12


### to give a few examples that people are familiar 13



### with, the white

- tailed ptarmigan, the Pica, 14



### arctic gentian, and the alpine forget

- me

- not. 15


### Changing in the timing of spring runoff 16


### may take a high toll on a quatic species and on 17


### birds. Runoff changes will certainly impact our 18


### irrigation

- based agricultural industry. 19


### Migration is triggered by a number of factors, 20


### but the timing of migration has evolved over a 21


### very extended period of time to enable the 22

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### migrato ry species to take advantage of abundant 1


### food supplies when they arrive at their 2



### destination. 3


### Climate change may result in a mismatch 4


### between the timing of species arrival and nesting 5


### or birthing sites and the availability of their 6



### food supply there. 7



### D enver Audubon recognizes the difficulty 8



### these standards may place on some members of the 9


### coal industry. Their position may be similar to 10


### that of the workforce that made typewriters early 11


### in the age of computers. Times change. It's 12



### difficult. But often careers needs to change as 13


### well. We trust these impacted workers will be 14


### given appropriate resources to help them make 15


### these changes as others have in the past. 16


### Thank you for moving forward with 17


### standards that will substantially reduce our 18



### carbon footpr int and hopefully slow the rate of 19


### climate change. 20



### I do have some of the concerns that have 21


### been mentioned by previous speakers about 22

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### flexibility not resulting in ultimately a lack of 1


### compliance with the standard s proposed. In the 2


### long run human needs wi ll best be met by going 3


### forward with these proposals. Thank you. 4


### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Did Steve 5


### Stevens happen to arrive? Is he in the room? 6


### Okay. We're going to take an 7


### approximately 20 minute break and reconvene at 8



### 3:30. So, please return prom ptly at 3:30. 9


### (Brief recess taken at 3:10 p.m.) 10



### (Record resumes at 3:30 p.m.) 11


### MR. JACKSON: Again, thanks for 12


### everyone's patience. If we could have Tom Hunt, 13


### Karen Gados, come on up and behind them if you 14



### could take seat Alicia Miers, and Carl Hansel. 15


### And I should have done this up front, but 16


### I apologize for the pronunciations. I'm doing 17


### the best I can, but it's not always easy. 18


### All right. Mr. Hunt, go ahead. 19


### MR. HUNT: Thank you. My name is Tom 20


### Hunt and I am a with Clean Energy Collective. W e 21


### are the nation's largest welfare community solar 22

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### projects and sharing the stage with another 1


### community solar developer. So, I think we'll tag 2



### team this a little bit. 3


### But community solar is a product where 4


### people who are not able or are unwilling to pu t 5


### solar panels on top of their roof are able to 6


### access the benefits and the renewable energy that 7


### comes with owning a solar. 8


### I'm here today speaking not just for 9



### myself, but also for the the 80 employees of 10


### Clean Energy Collective. Not only our 80 direct 11



### employees but across the hundreds of contractors, 12



### electricians and others that we hire to 13



### manufacture and install power arrays. And then 14



### also our thousands of customers. These are 15


### thousands of people who have bought into our 16


### arrays and recognize the ben efits of owning and 17


### (audio disruption)

-- 18



### And we know that this matters a lot to 19


### their economy

-- to them, you know, in terms of 20


### putting things on top

-- in terms of having an 21


### ownership in asset that is a long terms bill 22

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### credit for them, but I think they also recognize 1


### the benefits to their communities have the growth 2



### of clean energy. 3



### We know that from each one megawatt array 4


### that we stand up, over $25 million of power 5


### payments will be generated over the course of the 6


### lifetime of that project. And becau se it's owned 7


### by people who do businesses within the community, 8


### that's $25 million that stays within that 9


### community instead of going to energy production 10


### that may not be anywhere tied to the neighbors 11



### and businesses who live and work there. 12



### So because of that we are excited to see 13



### the EPA propose the clean power plan and we 14



### support the EPA's efforts. We urge the EPA to 15


### implement the plan strongly and quickly and 16


### effectively. 17


### Also I want to recognize the EPA has done 18



### what they proposed. Offer states fl exibility in 19


### what they do and reward states for being 20



### innovative and creative. And I think that's 21


### something that we strongly support and we urge 22

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### the EPA to do that for the furthest extent 1


### possible. I say this because we are more 2


### definitely a beneficiary of innovative and 3


### creative clean energy policy. As I said, we have 4



### 80 employees now. That's a number that was grown 5


### from just one in 2009. 6


### So over the past five years we've seen 7


### exponential growth and I that's directly because 8


### of innovative policy you see in Colorado. 9


### In 2010 Colorado passed the Community 10


### Solar Gardens Act in Colorado. And that opened 11


### up the door to business and financial innovation 12


### behind community solar gardens which has allowed 13



### us to grown from that 1 percent to 80, and from 14



### the o ne project to be worked on in Colorado to 15


### over 40 projects now across eight states. And I 16


### think that last part is important too. I 17


### recognize you give states the flexibility to do 18


### this and if they do so and do it in ways that 19


### reward innovation and come up with new ideas and 20


### new policies, they're going to see economic 21


### growth for decades. They're going to see that 22

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### they are forming the companies within those 1


### states in response to the policies that can then 2


### export those ideas and that economic growth to 3



### other states and really establish and industry 4


### that's going to be a foundation, as I said, for 5



### decades to come. 6


### So because of that, again, we strongly 7


### support what you're doing. We would, again, urge 8


### the flexibility and innovation that you are 9


### allowing and en couraging within the states. And 10


### the last thing I would say is that I encourage 11



### you to use the tools that you have here to 12



### further the growth of customer

- owned energy. 13


### When we see customers being involved in 14


### their energy solutions as you are with communi ty 15


### solar, they're being much more tied to the 16


### decisions they're making. They're recognizing 17


### the impacts that they have, both in terms of 18


### emissions that may be coming (audio disruption)

- 19



### - or not coming form them, but also how much it 20


### really affects their bottom line. And they 21


### recognize that they can invest in something 22

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### that's locking in their energy costs for many 1


### years, it's really a smart decision for them and 2


### it's something that they're going to be 3


### benefitting from. 4


### So I'll close with that and just sa y that 5


### Clean Energy Collective is a strong beneficiary 6


### of clean energy policies like the clean power 7


### plan, our customers are beneficiaries of it and I 8


### think the states where we operate are 9


### beneficiaries as well. Thank you. 10



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 11



### MS. GADOS: Thank you for having us here 12


### today. I am honored to be representing our 13


### company Sunshare and also to be here with our 14


### colleague Clean Energy Collective who is another 15


### community solar company here in the Colorado area 16



### and elsewhere. 17



### MR. JACKSON: Sorry to interrupt, could 18



### you spell you name? 19


### MS. GADOS: Yes, My name is Karen, K

- a

- r

20



### e

- n, last name G

- a

- d

- o

- s. 21



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 22

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### MS. GADOS: This week the EPA ruling is 1


### setting up a new playing field for renewable 2


### energy through policies lik e the clean power plan 3



### that allows new business and models to create 4


### clean energy solutions. 5



### So I want to tell the Sunshare story to 6


### contextualize what I mean by this. Three years 7


### ago before the Community Solar Gardens Act was 8


### passed, what we were doin g and what our 9


### colleagues the Clean Energy Collective were doing 10


### was actually illegal because we are private 11


### companies selling energy to the community, and 12


### that wasn't allowed. Once the 2010 Community 13



### Solar Gardens Act was passed, our company was 14



### founded in 2011 in Colorado Springs and we 15


### created a program with Colorado Springs 16



### utilities. 17


### Our first project sold out in a record 18


### ten weeks and we subscribed more people in that 19


### time than had participated in El Paso County in 20


### any solar program in the past te n years combined. 21


### So it really shows the pent

- up interest 22

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### in renewable energy in an area as conservative as 1


### Colorado Springs. 2



### Now, a few years later, there are 11 3


### utilities with community solar projects across 4


### the state and according to the latest count by 5


### the International Renewable Energy Council 16 6


### states with community solar programs under 7


### development or on line in some ways following 8



### Colorado's lead in this area. 9


### Most interestingly we now have community 10


### solar programs opening up in at least one stat e 11


### that we know of that is unlimited. It's just 12



### based on customer demand. Now, none of that 13


### would be possible if we didn't have policy that 14


### allowed these kind of programs. 15


### Some people say new policy will destroy 16


### jobs and destroy the economy, but we wan t to 17


### offer a different view today. Between our full

18



### time staff, subcontractors, and construction 19


### workers, we're employing over 100 people this 20


### fall during the construction of our projects. 21


### And this doesn't even include the ancillary jobs 22

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### created in the g reater Denver metro area. 1


### Another important point is that for the 2


### first time we are activity selling unsubsidized 3


### energy to our customers. Meaning that when we 4


### apply to our projects, we did not ask for any 5


### state or local incentives. So people that we're 6


### selling energy to in the Denver metro area are 7



### now able to buy energy from solar at the same 8


### price that they're buying coal energy and not 9


### requiring any additional incentives. 10


### Our customer demands is huge, but we are 11


### limited in how many projects that we' re able to 12


### build based on our utility partners and 13


### policymakers. We've come a long way since our 14


### business model was not allowed three years to to 15


### having community solar

-- successful community 16


### solar companies crop all over the state and now 17



### across the nat ion. 18


### Policies like the clean power plan will 19


### promote more change. New policies create new 20



### businesses which create new economies and remove 21


### the barriers that prevent companies from forming. 22

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### We encourage the adoption of the clean power 1



### plan. 2



### Thank you. 3



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 4



### Do we have Alicia Miers and Carl Hansel 5


### in the room? Come on up? 6



### MS. MIERS: Hi, Alicia Miers, A

- l

- i

- c

- i

- a 7



### M

- i

- e

- r

- s. I'm here today representing the 8


### Alliance of Nurses for a Healthy Environment. 9



### I'm an R.N. and a mother o f two young 10


### children. And therefore I have a great interest 11


### in public health issues. My foremost public 12


### health concern is climate change. I worry about 13


### what the future holds for my children and other 14


### children; what will our planet be like in 2030? 15



### 2030 , the time line that you have proposed to cut 16


### carbon pollution from power plants. What type of 17


### biodiversity will the planet have? Will polar 18



### bears still exist? Will the coastlines of our 19


### country have changed? Will there be enough clean 20



### water and food f or the world's growing 21


### population? These are the things I think about. 22

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### I support your proposal and I'm very 1


### grateful that national efforts are being made to 2


### reduce carbon pollution. 3


### My family is also taking steps. We've 4


### installed solar panels on our home and for most 5



### months out of the year we produce more energy 6



### than we consume. 7


### I believe each of us has an obligation to 8


### reduce our carbon footprint to ensure the health 9


### of our planet for future generations and for 10


### other humans and other species who als o have a 11


### right to live. 12


### As a nurse I intuitively know that the 13



### health of our environment and human health is 14


### intimately connected. 15



### For those who work in the fossil fuel 16


### industry, and oppose your clean power plan I am 17


### truly sorry at the threat to their livelihood. 18


### I grew up in West Virginia, I'm the 19


### daughter of a coal miner. Both of my 20


### grandfathers and two of my uncles are retired 21


### from the mines. So, coal miners are a big part 22

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### of my past and of my heart. But intuitively I 1



### know that we must change. I'm confident that all 2


### the hard work by the EPA will pay off and I thank 3


### you for your efforts to reduce carbon pollution. 4


### I'd like to end with a quote from E. O. 5



### Wilson who is a Pulitzer Prize Winner. He wrote, 6


### "The Future of Life." "I hope that I have 7


### justified the conviction shared by many 8


### thoughtful people from all walks of life that the 9


### problem can be solved. Adequate resources exist. 10



### Those who control them have many reasons to 11


### achieve that goal, at least their own security. 12



### In the end, however, s uccess or failure will come 13



### down to an ethical decision, one on which those 14


### now living will be defined and judged for all 15


### generations to come. I believe we will choose 16


### wisely. 17



### A civilization able to envision God and 18


### to embark on the colonization of space will 19


### surely find the ways to save the integrity of 20


### this planet and the magnificent life it harbors." 21



### Thank you. 22

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### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 1



### Mr. Hansel? 2


### MR. HANSEL: Yeah, hi, my name is Carl 3


### Hansel here representing nobody but myself, 4



### really. 5


### Briefly about me, in my life I'm 50

- some 6


### years old now. I've made an effort to minimize 7


### my negative impact on the planet and maximize my 8


### positive influences and contributions. Like 9


### Alicia and her family I'm doing solar at home and 10


### I'm basically a net provider to the grid or my 11


### home is a net provider to the grid. And that was 12


### actually a deliberate decision to do that. It 13


### perhaps doesn't make economic sense from some 14


### points of view, but it makes all the sense in the 15



### world to me. We have both solar thermal and 16



### so lar PV at home, so we're able to provide heat 17


### and electricity. We do connect to the grid and 18


### we do supply that grid with our excess. 19


### Also I'm a bicycle commuter and I use 20


### public transit whenever I can seeking to further 21


### minimize my negative impacts. 22

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### I very much support the EPA's proposals. 1



### I'm anxious to see the EPA tackle the 2


### transportation sector as well as electric 3


### generation. I think in the pie charts I've seen 4


### the transportation is close on the heels of 5


### electrical generation. I find personally that's 6


### one of the easiest things for us to tackle, 7


### transportation is a more personal choice. Where 8


### we get our energies for electricity at home is 9


### possibly not as easy to deal with as 10


### transportation. So I think there's great strides 11



### that can be made there

. 12



### The only other comment I would have, I'm 13



### concerned, I saw that there were a limited number 14


### of hearings for testimonies like this and I 15


### didn't see any on the west coast. So, I'm 16



### concerned. I know there's people on the west 17


### coast that would probably lik e to testify. I 18



### would not encourage those people to go further 19



### east than they are. People should be able to 20


### testify close to home. 21



### Thank you very much. 22

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### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 1


### Okay. Our next speakers if I could call 2


### up two to the podium and two to the chairs 3


### behind. The first two to the podiums are Marsha 4


### Eldridge and Lauren Poole, are they here? 5



### Lauren? Okay. 6



### And then could I also have Yana Kucher 7


### and Kay Parker to the chairs immediately behind 8


### the podiums. And I think we got a little out of 9



### order, so Kai Albacus and Robert Parker, we'll 10


### get to you just as soon as these folks are 11



### finished. 12


### Ms. Eldridge, go ahead. 13



### MS. POOLE: I'm Lauren Poole, I'm

-- is 14



### it that time? 15


### MR. JACKSON: Yeah, you're fine. 16



### MS. POOLE: I'm the executive director of 17


### the Energy Efficiency Business Coalition here in 18


### Colorado. We are a trade organization that 19


### represents over 100 businesses that generate over 20



### a billion dollars in revenue for the state. Our 21


### members are manufacturers, distributors, energy 22

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### auditors, ho me performance contractors and 1


### commercial energy service providers. We already 2


### work with utilities like Xcel Energy and 3


### municipalities to develop effective energy 4


### efficiency programs and we're ready to offer 5


### solutions to utilities now to help them meet 6



### th eir carbon emission reduction goals. 7


### Many of our members have systems in place 8


### to measure energy performance for command site 9


### management. And our companies are prepared to 10


### offer their experience and expertise to the EPA 11



### and the state of Colorado throug hout your planned 12


### development process. So we urge the EPA, as it 13


### develops it 111(d) guidelines to tap into the 14


### existing energy efficiency policies and programs 15


### and even expand on those. Doing so would be a 16



### win/win/win for the state of Colorado. It would 17



### save consumers millions of dollars, even if rates 18


### go up they would still save money because they 19


### would significantly reduce their energy 20


### consumption. It would increase business revenue 21


### which would create thousands of jobs. And it 22

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### would also reduce milli ons of metric tons of 1


### carbon emissions. So it would meet your goal and 2


### help the state significantly. So we urge you to 3


### make energy efficiency a key component of your 4


### guidelines as you move forward and please 5


### remember that we are here to assist you should 6


### you need help and I'd be happy to give you 7


### contact information if you desire. 8



### Thank you. 9



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 10



### Yes, come on up. 11


### MS. KUCHER: My name is Yana Kucher, 12



### that's Y

- a

- n

- a K

- u

- c

- h

- e

- r. I live in Denver and 13



### I'm the mother of a six

- year

- ol d boy and both he 14


### and I are very concerned about climate change and 15


### have seen some of its effects already with our 16



### own eyes. And I hate the moments when I need to 17


### explain to him what some of the reasons are that 18


### we are seeing these impacts on our environm ent. 19


### I know that moving forward with strong 20


### limits on carbon pollution from coal plants is 21



### one of the best ways that we can slow these 22

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### effects of global warming, so I support your 1



### plan, the clean power plan and urge you to move 2



### forward with it. 3



### Thank yo u. 4



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 5



### Okay. Ms. Parker? 6


### MS. PARKER: Hi, I'm Kay Parker, that's 7



### K

- a

- y P

- a

- r

- k

- e

- r. I live in Cokedale, Colorado 8


### on the Arkansas River. It's a pleasure to speak 9


### to you folks today and I thank you for this 10


### opportunity. 11



### I have a sthma. My asthma is allergy 12


### induced. I feel very fortunate that there 13


### medications which control my asthma. I have only 14


### been in the emergency room once because of 15



### asthma. 16



### My eldest son also has asthma. I spent 17


### nights holding him or sleeping on the fl oor 18


### beside his bed praying for morning to come so we 19


### could get to the doctor. His asthma was and 20



### still is much worse than mine. And now his 21



### oldest son has asthma and Owen's asthma is worse 22

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### than his dad's. 1


### Not being able to breathe is terrifying. 2



### You fe el panicked and helpless. You believe 3


### these may be the last moments of your life. As I 4


### am sure you're aware, asthma is on the rise. In 5


### the last decade it is up from 7.3 percent of the 6


### population to 8.4 percent. Climate change is 7


### contributing to this in crease. Smog, wildfires, 8


### smoke increased dust particles in the air, more 9


### mold spores, and fungi due to more precipitat ion 10


### in areas, more pollen and longer allergy seasons 11


### due to warmer temperatures, increased frequency 12


### of droughts, and windy dry air are a ll 13



### contributions to asthma. 14



### The increased CO2 and methane in the 15



### atmosphere is causing our climate change. And 16


### this climate change is increasing the rate of 17



### asthma. 18



### As I mentioned, there are medications to 19


### help control asthma. They are expensive. It's a 20


### burden on my budget to buy these medicines. 21


### There are many folks out there who simply can't 22

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### afford them at all. It hurts my heart to think 1


### how many out there are suffering with lung and 2


### breathing problems because care is beyond their 3



### reach. 4


### My childr en and grandchildren are one of 5


### the most precious parts of my life. I want them 6


### and all children to be able to live and grow in a 7


### clean and healthy environment. That is a right 8



### they deserve. Please pass the clean power plan. 9



### I applaud all the work you' ve done, now it needs 10


### to become a reality. 11



### Someone said, and I can't remember the 12


### name of the person who said it, so I can't give 13


### them credit, and I'm going to paraphrase it, if 14


### we act as if climate change is real and work to 15


### make our environment and pla net healthy and it 16


### turns out climate change isn't real, then we'll 17


### have a cleaner planet. If we at as if climate 18


### change isn't real and do nothing, and it turns 19


### out climate change is real, then boom, we all 20


### lose, humanity, the environment, and the planet. 21


### So we have nothing to lose reducing the 22

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### CO2 going into our atmosphere and we have 1


### everything to gain. Please pass the clean power 2



### plan. 3



### Thank you. 4



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 5


### Kai, okay. 6


### MR. ABELKIS: My name is Kai Abelkis, K

7



### a

- i, last name A

- b

- e

- l

- k

- i

- s. I am a 8


### sustainability coordinator at a community 9


### hospital here in Colorado. And I'm really here 10



### to speak as a healthcare worker, but also as 11


### someone who is working to integrate 12


### sustainability into the healthcare industry. 13


### And what I was hoping to get on the 14



### record was the notion that we once and for all 15


### look at the environment as our only life support 16


### system and that we tie every policy going forward 17


### into how does it affect human health in general. 18


### And as you might have read in Minnesota, 19



### they ar e currently working to update their 20


### abilities to look at externalities of coal power 21



### plants to take a look at what the cost of coal 22

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### power plants are in regards to the healthcare 1



### issues that face Minnesotans and across the 2



### country. 3


### And to me going forwar d really the policy 4



### of this administration and future administrations 5



### should be how does coal power plant affect human 6



### health, what are those externalities, how is that 7


### borne out in the healthcare industry, and how is 8


### that borne out in society in general? 9


### And therefore, those kind of policies are 10


### socialized, those kinds of commitments, your 11


### commitment to reducing coal power plants is not 12


### something that is historical, but that becomes 13


### part of how we go about creating policy by 14


### looking at human health. 15



### I wi ll tell you right now, if you want to 16


### reduce health care costs in this country there 17


### are two things. One is food policy, or more 18


### specifically, one is looking at pollution. And I 19


### would like to propose right here, right now that 20


### this U.S. government propos es that one day we 21


### have zero pollution in this country so that we 22

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### can ensure that we have a healthy, again, our 1


### life support system is allowed to support us, our 2


### inalienable right to live life, if you will. 3


### And, again, thank you for your time. 4



### MR. JACKSO N: Thank you. Mr. Parker? 5


### MR. PARKER: My name is Robert Parker. 6



### That's P

- a

- r

- k

- e

- r. I live in Cokedale, 7


### Colorado beside the Arkansas River in Big Horn 8


### Sheep Canyon. This was not an easy trip for my 9


### family to come here today. My travel time here 10



### an d back home is taking a full day and most of it 11



### was in torrential rain. 12


### But we are getting 48.8 miles per gallon 13


### and we carpooled to keep our carbon footprint to 14


### a minimum. Yet, we are indeed lucky that we are 15


### at least able to make the trip. I imagine t here 16


### are thousands who cannot be here simply because 17



### of economic and distance factors. 18


### Thank you for allowing me to speak on 19


### this, the most important issue of our lives. 20



### Before I go any further, what you, the 21


### EPA is doing, is not only right, it is absol utely 22

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### necessary. Put me down in support of these new 1


### regulations and guidelines. I only wish you 2


### could take this way further . The damage to the 3


### atmosphere, the temperature and the environment 4


### that the CO2 and methane pollution, these coal

5



### fired and natu ral gas

- fired power plants are 6


### creating is increasing exponentially while the 7


### fix we are discussing today will in no way keep 8


### up with the pollution and disasters they are 9


### causing. 10


### I am 65 years old. I am an artist and a 11


### sculptor. My entire life has been dedicated to 12


### bringing beauty into the world in my own small 13


### way. As an artist I have spent thousands of 14


### hours in our national parks and other pristine 15


### and beautiful places. They have made me a whole 16


### human being. 17


### During the 1980s I was the archeologic al 18


### artist at Mesa Verde National Park. I founded my 19


### art gallery in the park. The park was covered 20


### with pinion and juniper forests with many 21



### thousands of trees over 800 years old. Before I 22

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### was at Mesa Verdi, during the 82 years the Park 1


### Service was keepi ng records, there were fires 2



### that burned a total of around 5,000 acres. After 3



### I left in 1988 between then and now almost 29,000 4


### acres have burned, destroying over half of the 5



### park. Those thousands of 800

- year

- old trees 6



### poof, gone, char. 7



### Over the years since 1988 I watched our 8


### greatest national treasures burn. Mesa Verdi 9


### that I just discussed, Yellowstone burned almost 10


### a million acres, or 45 percent of the park 11


### burned. Yosemite where as I speak over 2,700 12


### acres are burning. And since 1990 another 13



### 140 ,000 acres have burned, just to name a few. 14


### I cared, so I became a firefighter as 15


### well as a sculptor. I was trained to fight 16



### structure fires and wildfires. As a wildfire 17


### fighter, I fought federally managed fires 18


### throughout Colorado in Wyoming, Montana, and on 19



### the Native American lands in North Dakota and in 20



### South Dakota. 21


### This is hard, personally seeing what 22

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### climate change is doing to our lands, our 1



### forests, and our communities. In the 1960s 2


### Colorado averaged about 460 fires a year for 3



### about 8,000 acr es burning annually. Since the 4



### 1980s fires in the west have increased 300 5


### percent and annual acreage burned has increased 6



### by 500 percent. 7



### In the past two years alone, almost 8



### 354,000 acres have burned in Colorado. In those 9


### conflagrations, over 1,230 hom es have been 10


### destroyed, again, right here in Colorado. 11


### The Royal Gorge fire in 2013 destroyed 12


### that destination attraction. The Royal Gorge 13


### bridge park outside of Canyon City closing the 14


### park for two years and destroying my business, an 15



### art gallery down r iver that depends on the 16


### tourism generated by the park. 17


### Wildfires are only one of the many, many, 18


### many damaging effects of climate change cause in 19



### part by the very coal

- and gas

- fired plants power 20


### plants that your new regulations and 21



### recommendations see k to help mitigate. Now that 22

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### I am a bit old to physically put out the fires

-- 1


### the wildfires, I have joined 350 Colorado and 350 2


### Central Colorado to work towards putting out the 3


### ultimate fire climate change. 4



### Thank you all for that

-- thank you all 5



### that you're doing in that regard and for my 11 6


### grandchildren and the millions of other children 7


### who will face building a life in the inhospitable 8


### and cataclysmic conditions to come, please do 9



### even more. 10



### Thank you. 11



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 12


### Did Marsha Eldridge make it in? 13


### Okay. Yeah, you can go for it. 14


### MS. ELDRIDGE: Hi, my name is Marsha 15


### Eldridge and I'm from Denver and this is my 16


### daughter Josie Brigrich. Can you say hi? 17



### JOSIE BRIGRICH: Hi. 18



### MS. ELDRIDGE: And we are here to 19



### strongly support the clean po wer plan. We are 20



### very concerned. I am very concerned about global 21


### warming and she doesn't know exactly what it is 22

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### yet and I hope that she doesn't have to learn, 1


### you know, more hard things that are happening. 2



### So anyway, we are here to support the 3



### plan. I think it's a great first step and then 4


### on behalf of other parents and families and 5


### children (child interrupting) we're going to tell 6



### them about this banner. 7


### We are presenting this message to the EPA 8


### with handprints of parents and children from 9



### Denver an d across the country. And a message 10


### from them that says to please keep doing the good 11



### work on the clean power plan on behalf of all of 12



### us. 13



### Thank you. 14



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you guys. 15


### MS. ELDRIDGE: I'll read what it says, I 16


### just can't see it. And it say s, "Dear EPA, thank 17


### you for protecting us, America's children support 18



### the clean power plan." 19



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much. 20


### All right. Next couple of speakers we 21



### have are Samantha Ak a wei, and Catherine Cox 22

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### Blair. If you guys are in the room, come o n up, 1



### please. 2



### MS. AK A WEI: I'm Samantha Akawei, that's 3



### A

- k

- a

- w

- e

- i. Good afternoon to each of you. 4


### Thank you for this opportunity to testify. My 5


### name is Samantha Akawei and I'm an organizer for 6



### the the national non

- profit Green For All. 7



### Today we stan d in support of the proposed 8



### rule, the clean power plan to cut carbon 9


### pollution. 10


### Growing up in west Harlem I know 11


### firsthand the devastating and disproportionate 12


### impact that climate change has on communities of 13


### color. In kindergarten my teacher would pr epare 14


### juice for all of the children of my class as I 15


### drank milk. I always thought this was unfair and 16


### one day asked whether I could have juice too. 17


### She said, "They're only drinking juice because 18


### they all have asthma, you don't." At the time I 19



### was five a nd wanted asthma just to drink juice. 20


### But today I understand that one in every six 21


### black children suffer from asthma compared to one 22

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### in every ten children nationwide, and a great 1


### cause of this is carbon pollution. 2


### Today I wonder how many other children 3


### are thinking this way and want to redirect our 4



### attention to our nation's most vulnerable 5


### communities that are truly suffering as a result 6


### of carbon pollution. 7


### Sixty

- eight percent of African Americans 8


### live within 30 miles of a coal plant and in 9


### neighborho ods with the fewest resource it's 10


### harder to escape, survive, and recover. 11


### My parents made it a priority to send my 12


### siblings and I to public school in downtown 13



### Manhattan instead where there was fresher air to 14


### breathe and we too have to make it a priority t o 15



### create clean, safe, sustainable, and renewable 16



### standards for all communities. 17



### Colorado is a state that can relate to 18


### the effects of climate change as it is making 19



### extreme weather worse. Colorado power plants and 20



### other industrial facilities released mo re than 50 21


### million tons of carbon pollution in 2012. This 22

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### is equal to the yearly pollution for more than 11 1



### million cars. 2


### Extreme weather events are costing 3



### Colorado millions to rebuild and recover from. 4


### And in 2012 alone, Colorado experienced 43 5



### wild fires. After disasters like these, we need 6


### to find solutions that help families not just 7



### recover, but have the strength to move forward 8



### and beyond. If we do not, we can only expect 9


### more disasters of this magnitude. 10


### As a young woman of color, I believe in 11


### the clean power plan and recognize both the 12


### crisis and the opportunity that is at hand. 13


### There are currently about 88,000 coal mining jobs 14


### in the U.S., many of which people of color work 15



### for. We just released a poll that shows that 16



### these communities f eel that the clean power plan 17


### will spur research and innovations to keep energy 18


### prices low and create whole new industries with 19



### good

- paying jobs. This shows that we can 20



### transition into a clean environment and clean 21


### energy economy without leaving people be hind. 22

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### The truth of the matter is 1


### environmentalists and workers in our energy 2



### sector have more in common than we often 3


### acknowledge. We all want good jobs to feed our 4



### children and a clean environment so that our kids 5


### and our grandkids can thrive. We all w ant our 6


### kids and grandkids to breathe clean air and drink 7


### clean water and live healthy prosperous lives. 8



### We don't have to limit ourselves to 9


### picking jobs versus protecting the environment. 10


### Americans deserve good jobs and a healthy 11



### environment. We do no t need to accept a false 12


### choice between our pressing economic needs and 13


### our legitimate environmental concerns. 14


### It is now up to the states to do their 15


### jobs to implement the standards so people, 16


### especially communities of color, especially 17



### communities of col or don't have to be sick just 18



### for their own livelihood. 19


### We should also work alongside you all, 20



### the EPA, so thank you for all your work, to 21


### coordinate efforts to create plans that meet the 22

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### standards so we can build a green economy, one 1



### that is inclusive, and one that lifts people out 2



### of poverty. 3



### Thank you. 4



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 5



### Ms. Blair? 6



### MS. COX BLAIR: Good afternoon, I am 7



### Catherine Cox Blair, that's C

- o

- x B

- l

- a

- i

- r. 8


### I also commend you all for the extensive 9


### amount of work that has gone into t he clean power 10



### plan. 11



### I'm a senior advisor with the Urban 12


### Solutions Program with the Natural Resources 13



### Defense Council. 14



### NRDC is a non

- profit environmental 15


### organization with more than 1.4 million members 16



### and online activists. 17


### Since our founding in 1970 o ur lawyers, 18


### scientists, and other environmental specialist 19



### have worked to protect the world's natural 20


### resources as public health and the environment. 21


### Our top institutional priority is urban 22

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### global warming emissions and building a clean 1



### energy future. 2



### I am grateful that Colorado has been a 3



### leader on these issues. 4


### As a city planning professional, I've 5


### worked with cities all around the country over 6


### the last two decades working hard to plan and 7


### implement more sustainable economically resilient 8


### and socially inclusive places. I hear over and 9


### over again from municipal and business leaders 10


### what they want is cleaner air and healthier 11



### communit ies, more energy efficient buildings and 12


### utility systems, alternative transportation 13



### choices, access to smart renewable e nergy 14


### sources, and recreational activities and open 15


### space. These are the things that make cities and 16


### communities livable and attractive places for 17


### people to live and for businesses to thrive. 18


### The damaging effects of climate change 19



### are real and they're th reatening our communities, 20


### our way of life, and our local state and even our 21


### national economy. 22

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### The EPA's clean power plan is a step

-- a 1


### necessary step in the right direction. 2


### As a Coloradoan I've experienced and 3


### witnessed firsthand the devastating ef fects of 4


### climate change. We've seen huge wildfires cause 5


### major damage. Colorado's Waldo Canyon fire alone 6



### -- I'm sure you all are getting a little tire of 7



### these citations

-- has been more destructive and 8


### was more destructive in our state's history. It 9



### d amaged more than 346 homes, burned more than 10



### 1,800 acres, forced the evacuation of 3,200 11


### residents and cost $8.8 million to contain. 12



### On the other end of our weather troubles, 13


### we were hit by storms in June of 2012 that caused 14


### more than $1 billion in hail d amage. And then in 15


### 2013 we had rains of Biblical proportions. 16


### Over five days in September nearly a 17


### years' worth of rain fell in Colorado in 2013. 18


### It caused flooding

-- or this past September. It 19


### caused flooding that traveled 140 miles all the 20



### way eas t to Nebraska. The flooding killed eight 21



### people and destroyed more than 1,400 homes 22

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### causing millions of dollars of damage. 1


### Colorado is already feeling the effects 2



### of extreme weather. One only needs to look 3


### outside, look outside the window today, liste n to 4


### the news today, and you can see what climate 5


### change has meant for Colorado in terms of 6


### droughts, wildfires, floods and record heat. 7


### EPA's proposed plan is a significant step 8


### in the right direction for our country. It's 9


### critically important to buil d on the proposal and 10


### to adopt an even stronger final rule next year to 11


### benefit Coloradoans and our economy. In the 12



### meantime, Colorado can continue as a leader in 13


### the clean energy economy by cultivating 14


### innovation, supporting new and emerging 15



### businesses a nd by promoting investments in wind, 16



### solar, and other forms of renewable and cleaner 17



### power plants. 18


### Finally, I'm also a mother which is 19


### perhaps the most compelling reason for me to 20


### provide comments today. We have an obligation to 21


### protect our children and future generations from 22

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### climate change by adjusting its causes including 1


### carbon emission from power plants. I'm here to 2



### show my strong support for the clean power plan. 3


### I urge the EPA to finalize the strongest carbon 4


### pollution standards for the existing power plants 5


### and to address the main cause of climate change 6


### to protect our health from its devastating 7


### impacts. I appreciate the opportunity to share 8


### these comments on this very critical issue. 9


### Thank you for the time. 10



### MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 11



### I have n o more names. 12



### (Pause.) 13



### MR. JACKSON: Okay. We currently have no 14


### speakers cued up, so we will take a quick break 15


### here and get going after we get a few more 16


### speakers, say in five minutes. 17


### (Brief recess taken at 4:16 p.m.) 18



### (Record resumes at 5:15 p.m. ) 19

20

21



### SESSION C 22

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### MS. SUTIN: Good evening, everyone. I 1


### think we're going to get started. 2


### My name is Elayana Sutin and I am one of 3


### the chairs for today's hearings. Thank you all 4


### for coming today. 5


### Joining me on the panel are Nate 6



### McMichael from the Office of Air and Radiation in 7



### D.C. and Colin Boswell, who is also from the 8



### Office of Air and Radiation, but in North 9



### Carolina. 10


### We are here today to listen to your 11



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 12


### pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 13



### o f these proposed rules on June 2, 2014. 14



### Power plants are the largest source of 15


### carbon pollution in the United States, accounting 16



### for roughly one

- third of all domestic greenhouse 17


### gas emissions. 18


### The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 19


### power plan for existin g power plants. This 20


### proposal consists of two main parts, state

21


### specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 22

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### power plants and guidelines to help states 1


### develop their plans for meeting these goals. 2


### This proposal gives states flexibility in 3


### determining ho w to meet their goals. States will 4


### choose what goes into their plans that show how 5


### they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 6


### their goals by 2030. 7


### The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 8



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 9



### and reconstr ucted power plants. This rule would 10


### set emission limits for two groups of power 11


### plants, those that make physical or operational 12


### changes that increase the plant's maximum 13


### achievable hourly rate of emissions
, and those 14



### that replace components to such an ext ent that 15


### the new components exceed 50 percent of capital 16


### costs of an entirely new comparable facility. 17


### If you would like more detail on either 18


### of these proposed rules, there is information by 19


### the registration desk. 20


### Today's hearing is one of four public 21


### hearings across the country this week on the two 22

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### proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 1


### in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 2


### you for taking time out of your day today to join 3



### us and share your comments. 4


### We have a lot of people signe d up to 5



### speak and we want to hear from everyone. So 6


### before we get started I would like to go through 7


### a few housekeeping items and ground rules that 8


### will help us run things smoothly. 9


### First, please be sure to have checked in 10


### at the registration desk, if you have not already 11


### done so. And if you signed up to speak online or 12



### by phone and haven't told us that you're here, 13


### please step out to the registration desk and let 14


### the EPA staff there know that you've arrived. 15


### Second, if you are a speaker, you were 16



### proba bly just given room B, so I think we're set. 17


### But if you were given Room A, stay put, this is 18


### where you'll give your testimony. 19


### If you are not speaking this evening and 20


### the room is getting crowded, which I doubt will 21


### happen, but if that's the case, we hav e 22

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### additional rooms to view by video. 1


### I will call speakers up in pairs, when 2


### your name is called, please come to the podium at 3



### the front of the room. When I call on you to 4


### speak, please state your name, and spell it for 5



### the court reporter. 6



### Your comments will be transcribed and 7



### included in the record of comments on the 8


### proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 9


### minutes to give comments. We have a light to 10


### help you know how much time you have left to 11


### speak. It's right here. When the light turns 12



### from gre en to yellow, that means you have one 13


### minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 14


### sign to wrap up your testimony. The light will 15


### flash red and beep when your five minutes is up 16


### and it's time to stop. 17


### When you are finished speaking, please 18



### remain at th e podium until the person next to you 19


### has completed his or her testimony. 20


### We are here to listen to you today. 21


### However a panel member may ask you to clarify 22

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### your comments. 1


### I will then call upon the next pair of 2



### speakers and so on. 3



### If you have brought a written copy of 4


### your testimony, please give that to the staff at 5


### the registration desk or you can leave it here at 6



### the table with us. 7



### If you have any additional comments you 8


### would like to make after your testimony, you can 9


### submit those in writing. 10



### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 11



### much consideration to comments we receive in 12


### writing as we do to the comments we receive at 13


### public hearings like this one. 14


### So if you have more than you would like 15


### to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 16



### revi ewed. 17


### There is still plenty of time to get 18



### written comments in and there are comment cards 19


### available at the registration desk. Comments 20


### must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 21


### put any written comments submitted today in the 22

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### official docket for th e proposed rule. 1


### Instructions for submitting written comments in 2


### other ways are available at the materials table 3


### near the registration desk. 4


### We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 5


### tonight. We will take breaks as needed. If you 6


### have any questions during th e course of the 7


### hearing, please see the staff at the registration 8


### desk and someone will try and help you. 9



### Please be respectful of everyone who 10


### speaks today. We have people with a wide variety 11



### of views in the audience and we want to hear from 12



### all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 13


### everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly, 14


### even applause can slow things down and we want to 15


### hear from everyone who has signed up to speak. 16


### Thank you, again, for taking the time 17



### today to share your comments on EP A's proposed 18



### rule. We'll get started. Thanks. 19



### (Pause.) 20


### MS. SUTIN: I would like to call up 21



### Charlotte Bromley and Sarah Bromley. Charlotte, 22

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### you can go first. 1


### MS. BROMLEY: Hi, my name is Charlotte 2



### Bromley. That's C

- h

- a

- r

- l

- o

- t

- t

- e B

- r

- o

- m

- l

- e

- y. 3



### I first want to say, thank you guys so much for 4


### allowing us the opportunity to speak. 5


### When I sat down to write this testimony, 6



### I wanted to tell a story about why I'm here 7


### today, standing up for the clean power plan. But 8


### I don't actually have just one singl e story that 9


### demonstrates why this is so important to me. 10


### My belief that the clean power plan must 11


### be implemented stems from a lifetime of small 12


### moments that have made it increasingly clear to 13


### me that our planet is in danger, and that it is 14



### up to our gen eration to act. 15


### I grew up in Haddam
, Connecticut, which 16


### is a small suburb along the Connecticut River, 17


### and I fell in love with being outside. Whether 18


### playing soccer, or running around in the woods 19


### behind my house, catching frogs in our pond or 20


### riding m y bike down to the Connecticut River. 21


### It became a very big part of who I am and 22

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### I just spent a ton of time outside. It was a 1


### lifestyle that made me feel deeply connected to 2


### the outdoors, and a lifestyle that I took for 3



### granted. 4


### When I was younger I didn 't like going to 5


### New York because, according to my mom, I said " it 6



### felt to o dirty and crowded. " So naturally, I 7


### moved to Los Angeles for college. My first week 8


### in L.A. was for preseason for my college's soccer 9



### team, and at the time wildfires were so inte nse 10


### that after practices we would come back to our 11


### bags and they would be dusted with ash. We had 12


### to have half of our preseason indoors, which 13



### wasn't fun when the gym was 100 degrees and there 14


### was no fresh air. I thought that this was just a 15



### fluke, but a s it turns out, wildfires are 16


### actually becoming a very regular part of life in 17



### L.A. 18



### When we would hear that you could see the 19


### fires from the freeway, or from the top of what 20


### we called, Mount Fiji on our campus, we weren't 21


### startled but instead we would jus t go watch the 22

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### hills on fire. 1


### My junior year in college, it had been so 2


### hot and dry for so long, that a fire actually 3


### started on our campus in a small field that led 4



### to a mass evacuation and a cancellation of 5



### classes. 6


### My senior year wildfires were so bad that 7


### our professors had to evacuate their homes 8



### because they were told there was a good chance 9


### that they would burn down, also cancelling 10



### classes. 11


### I never have had any problems with 12


### asthma, but during lacrosse season in Los 13



### Angeles, I would often have t o stop playing 14



### because I couldn't breathe. It felt like I was 15


### suffocating due to the mixture of the intense 16


### heat and the extremely thick and dirty air. It, 17


### again, made me only want to be outside when I had 18



### to be. 19



### I thought that once I left Los Angeles 20



### t he extreme and unpredictable weather events, 21


### such as wildfire, drought and flash flooding, 22

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### would be behind me. And at Denver, despite its 1


### reputation for weird weather, would be relatively 2


### calm and normal. I found this to be totally 3


### inaccurate. And again , I'm living in a place 4


### where not only droughts, wildfires and flash 5



### floods are normal, but so is hail the size of 6


### golf balls and terrible air quality. 7


### Our climate is clearly changing. These 8


### weather patterns were not around in the past 9



### several decades. And over the past several years 10


### I think everyone can admit that they've seen 11



### increased extreme weather events and increased 12



### costs associated with them. 13


### Ninety

- seven percent of scientists now 14


### argue that climate change is real, and it's 15


### caused by human acti vity and we must act now. 16


### For people to come up here and otherwise argue

-- 17


### or argue otherwise is, I believe, denial and in 18


### most cases motivated by a fear of losing money. 19


### If we don't act, and if we don't accept 20


### the clean power plan and implement it, we will 21


### not only continue to hurt our environment, cause 22

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### tons of costs to people

-- citizens, but we won't 1


### have a safe place to live for much longer. 2



### So I very much support the clean power 3


### plan and I really hope that it

-- 4



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Sarah. 5



### MS . BROMLEY: My name is Sarah Bromley, 6



### S

- a

- r

- a

- h B

- r

- o

- m

- l

- e

- y. I'm here to speak in 7



### favor of the clean power plan. 8


### As an eighth grade teacher here in 9


### Denver, I have chosen to invest my time in future 10


### generations. Though our generation is already 11


### experie ncing the e ffects of climate change, my 12


### student's generation will be even more affected. 13



### It's time we make the hard decision in 14


### favor of our children, rather than protecting the 15


### coal industry, whose interests are in immediate 16


### gain rather than forward thin king. 17



### The use of fossil fuels has a 18


### disproportionate impact on the most vulnerable 19


### populations in the U.S. and elsewhere. The urban 20


### poor, the elderly, and children are most at risk

. 21


### Global warming, caused by pollution from fossil 22

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### fuel burning power pla nts, is creating harsher 1



### conditions for children who suffer from asthma 2


### and other respiratory diseases. 3


### Children are also more susceptible to 4



### heat related illnesses, like heat stroke, a 5



### consideration that will become more serious as 6



### extreme weather events become more frequent. 7


### Our children deserve clean air and they 8


### deserve to grow up in a healthy environment. I 9


### want to have kids someday, but I want the world 10


### that I bring them into, to be a safe one. One 11


### that where there is enough clean air for them to 12


### breathe. I want them to experience the outdoors 13


### as a place of happiness, rather than fear. They 14



### should be allowed the same freedoms and choices 15



### as we are. 16



### Carbon dioxide emissions that enter the 17


### atmosphere today will affect the global 18



### temperatures for t housands of years. The choices 19


### we make today will determine whether the effects 20


### on the globe will be manageable or unmanageable. 21


### There is no more efficient way to regulate U.S. 22

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### carbon emissions than managing the emissions of 1


### existing power plants. 2



### We mu st pass the clean power plan not 3



### only to protect the health and future of our 4


### children, but to set a good example for them. 5


### Most children today grow up learning nothing 6


### about environmental stewardship, and many never 7


### develop a relationship with the enviro nment they 8



### live in. We must show them that the earth is 9


### something to be valued, and passing the clean 10


### power plan is a step in the right direction. 11



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. You can both be 12



### seated. 13


### Next I'd like to call up Roberta Mooney 14



### and Micah Parkin. Ms. Mooney, you'll go first. 15


### MS. MOONEY: Hello and thank you for this 16


### opportunity to provide public comment on the EPA 17



### clean power proposed rule. I am Roberta Mooney 18


### an environmental attorney and I am speaking today 19



### on behalf of 350 Colorado, a non

- pr ofit 20


### organization working locally to build a global 21



### prosperous m ovement to solve the planet crisis 22

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### and transition to a sustainable future. 1


### 350 Colorado is very supportive of EPA's 2


### efforts to reduce carbon emissions from power 3



### plants through the clean powe r plan. And while 4


### we believe that much deeper reductions in CO2 5


### emissions than 30 percent below 2005 levels by 6



### 2030 are needed, we realize that this is an 7



### essential first step towards putting some limits 8



### on CO2 emissions that have so far been 9



### unregulated. 10


### The buildup of greenhouse gas es in our 11


### atmosphere has already raised global temperatures 12


### by about one degree Celsius, and even now we have 13


### begun to experience terrible impacts both here in 14



### Colorado
, with increased droughts, floods, 15


### wildfires and pine nee dle epidemics, and around 16


### the world with more devastating storms, sea level 17



### rise, ocean acidification and more. 18


### Our planet has just had its hottest May 19



### on record, followed by the hottest June on 20


### record. And high temperature records around the 21



### world conti nue to be broken, imposing ever more 22

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### danger to human health and welfare. 1



### We thank the EPA under the Obama 2


### Administration for stepping up to its 3


### responsibility to protect human health and the 4


### environment by enacting measures to reduce carbon 5


### pollution. Bu t of course, CO2 is not the only 6



### greenhouse gas concerned. 350 Colorado strongly 7


### urges the EPA to include in the clean power plan, 8


### the CO2 equivalent of other major greenhouse 9


### gases, especially methane, a powerful greenhouse 10



### gas. 11


### As you are likely aware, methane is a 12


### primary constituent of natural gas and according 13


### to the 2013 report from the international panel 14


### on climate change, the heat trapping power of 15


### methane is 35 times more potent than CO2 over 100 16


### years. Eighty

- six times more potent over the 17



### cri tical next 20 years, and 125 times more potent 18


### with feedback during the next decade. 19



### In 2012 and 2013 studies, NOAA observed 20



### that 4 to 9 percent of the methane accessed from 21


### oil and gas production leaks directly into the 22

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### atmosphere, contributing significa ntly to climate 1



### destabilization. 2



### A nother study by researchers at the 3


### University of California, Irvine, published by 4


### the National Academy of Sciences this past March, 5


### showed that drilling operations at several 6


### natural gas wells in southwestern Pennsylvan ia, 7


### release methane into the atmosphere at rates that 8



### were 100 to 1
, 000 times more than EPA had 9


### previously estimated. 10


### Using a plane that was specially equipped 11


### to measure greenhouse gas emissions in the air, 12



### scientists found that drill ing activities at 13



### se ven well pads in the blooming Marcella shale 14


### formation, emitted 34 grams of methane per 15



### second, on average. Far greater than EPA's 16



### estimate that said shalli ng released .04 grams to 17



### .3 grams of methane per second. 18



### These leakage rates have led some 19



### analyst s to surmise that natural gas production, 20


### by hydraulic factoring and horizontal drilling, 21


### also known as fracking, is perhaps even more 22

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### dangerous for the climate than burning coal. 1


### Since many wells leak far more than the 3.2 2



### percent break

- even point, beyon d which methane 3


### leakage rates are considered worse for the 4


### climate than coal burning. 5


### Since 2007, atmospheric methane 6


### concentrations have been rising rapidly, and the 7


### recent increase in fracking for oil and gas in 8


### the United States and elsewhere is likely a 9


### contributor to the higher methane levels. If the 10


### CO2 equivalent of methane is not considered as 11



### part of the clean power proposed rule, the 12


### consequences could be a power source switching 13


### from coal burning to natural gas burning. Since 14


### burning natural g as, which is mostly methane, 15


### produces about half as much CO2 per unit energy 16


### as burning coal. 17



### However, if the intention of the clean 18


### power plan, and the president's clean action plan 19


### is to mitigate climate change, than it would be 20


### folly not to consider th e heat

- trapping impacts 21


### of methane leakage during the production and 22

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### transportation as well as the burning of natural 1



### gas. 2


### In order to achieve the greenhouse gas 3


### reductions needed to avert catastrophic climate 4


### change, we must transition as rapidly as poss ible 5


### off all fossil fuels, including natural gas, and 6


### quickly ramp up our use of renewable energy, 7


### energy efficiency, and conservation. 8


### Resource switching from coal to natural 9


### gas would waste valuable time and utility rate 10


### payers money with little to no c limate benefits. 11


### So it is vital that the clean power plan does not 12


### inadvertently reward switching to natural gas by 13


### not considering the CO2 equivalent heat

- trapping 14


### potential of methane. 15


### Again, 350 Colorado would like to 16


### sincerely thank the EPA for its w ork to reduce 17


### greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles, power 18


### plants and other sources. Get this right and our 19


### children and future generations will certainly be 20



### grateful as well. 21



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you
, Ms. Mooney. Do 22

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### you mind spelling your last name for t he court 1



### reporter? 2


### MS. MOONEY: Certainly. It's M

- o

- o

- n

- e

3



### y. 4



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 5


### MR. BOSWELL: Can you also include the 6


### study that you referenced in a written comment? 7



### MS. MOONEY: Yes. We have a reference 8


### here, and I can give it to you now, or su bmit it 9



### online. 10



### MR. BOSWELL: You can give it to us now. 11



### Thank you. 12



### MS. SUTIN: Ms. Parkin. 13


### MS. PARKIN: Hi, my name is Micah Parkin, 14



### I'm the executive director of 350 Colorado, here 15


### in Colorado. And I just

-- I wasn't actually 16


### intending on speaking, so I'll just speak off the 17


### cuff, if that's okay. 18


### I just wanted to give a little bit of

-- 19


### just a few thoughts. First of all, I just wanted 20


### to talk about how no place is safe from climate 21



### change. Unfortunately, that's become all too 22

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### clear in the recent d ecade. 1


### My family moved here seven years ago from 2


### New Orleans and we lived there nine years pre

3


### Katrina, two years post

- Katrina. We all saw the 4


### devastating impacts of Hurricane Katrina. 5


### My family decided to move somewhere 6



### safer, where there would be fa r fewer natural 7



### disasters like floods and so we moved to Boulder
, 8


### Colorado. And sadly one year after moving there, 9


### we had the worst wildfire in Colorado's history, 10


### in Boulder, breathing down our necks, threatening 11


### evacuation. And then, of course, last ye ar we 12


### had the worst flood in Colorado's history in 13



### Boulder
, Colorado. 14


### My husband says if we move anywhere else, 15


### there's going to be mass exodus and I can see 16



### why. 17


### But the truth of the matter is that every 18


### place is experiencing impacts of climate change

. 19



### And we, at 350 Colorado, and many other 20


### organizations here, the 10,000 plus people that 21



### we represent though, on behalf of 350 Colorado, 22

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### strongly support the fact that the EPA is taking 1



### these measures to start to control carbon 2


### emissions from power plant s. But as Bobby said 3


### just a moment ago, I wanted to reiterate the law 4


### of unintended consequences. 5



### When I moved here to Colorado, about, I 6



### don't know, two years after or something, there 7


### was a bill that was passed called the C lean J obs 8



### A ct. The C lean J ob s A ct, the whole point of it 9



### was to

-- to shift away from coal burning and a 10


### lot of what happened was resource switching from 11


### coal to natural gas. And at the time, I was 12


### really supportive because, guess what, natural 13


### gas burns with 50 percent less CO2 emi ssions than 14


### coal. But upon digging deeper and over the last 15



### six, seven years, many of us have been learning 16


### more about what's happening with hydraulic 17


### fracturing and horizontal drilling and all the 18


### huge amounts of methane that's getting emitted 19



### from the f racking well heads. Anywhere from 4
, 20


### some say as high 17 percent of the natural gas 21


### produced is actually leaking directly into the 22

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### atmosphere from hydraulic fracturing and the well 1


### heads, not to mention all the transportation of 2



### natural gas. 3



### Some studi es have indicated, as Bobby 4


### said, that anything over 3.4 percent leakage 5


### rates is actually worse for our climate than 6


### burning coal. That's really, really frightening 7



### to me, and I'm sure to you too. Because of the 8


### huge boom we've seen in recent years from 9


### fracking in the United States. It can't be 10


### coincidence that atmospheric methane 11


### concentrations have also been rising since 2007. 12


### I just wanted to bring up the fact that 13



### if we don't

-- just to reiterate what Bobby said, 14


### if we're not considering the carbo n equivalent of 15


### methane, we could potentially do what the clean 16


### jobs act did, which was to switch from coal 17


### burning to natural gas. And although it burns 18


### cleaner and with fewer emissions, you have to 19


### look at the production and the transportation 20



### cycles. If we don't, we could inadvertently be 21


### causing actually more greenhouse gases, more 22

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### potent methane emissions to be releasing into the 1



### atmosphere. 2


### Coal is nasty, we want to move away from 3


### it, but switching to natural gas is not the 4



### solution. And if we're not very careful with the 5


### way EPA constructs this rule, we could 6


### inadvertently cause just that to happen, at very 7


### dire consequences to methane in our climate. 8


### So just again, I wanted to say thank you 9


### again for all of your work, EPA, under the Obama 10



### Admini stration for trying to deal with the 11


### climate crisis. It really badly needs to be 12


### dealt with so that my kids and her kids and 13



### everybody can have a safe future. 14



### Thank you. 15



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 16



### M s. Parkin, will you spell your name for 17



### the record? 18



### MS. PARKIN: Uh

- huh. It's Micah, M

- i

- c

19



### a

- h, Parkin, P

- a

- r

- k

- i

- n. Thank you. 20



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 21


### Next I'd like to call Jenny Douglass and 22

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### Peter Blair. 1


### Ms. Douglass, you can go first. 2



### MS. DOUGLASS: Okay. Jenny, J

- e

- n

- n

- y, 3



### Douglass, D

- o

- u

- g

- l

- a

- s

- s. 4


### And I don't have anything written, I'm 5


### just here as a mom. I'm very concerned about 6


### global warming and the impacts of carbon 7


### pollution on global warming. And I support these 8



### new proposed rules. 9



### Thank you. 10



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 11



### Mr. Blair. 12



### MR. B LAIR: Peter Blair, P

- e

- t

- e

- r B

- l

- a

13



### i

- r. 14


### And so, first of all, thank you for 15


### taking the time and opportunity for us to express 16


### our thoughts about this. I am here today talking 17


### to you in a nice dry room, in a nice dry building 18


### with rains coming down outsi de, knowing that they 19


### are expecting to cause more flooding, knowing 20


### that the news is telling me in the morning to be 21


### especially careful of some of the areas that are 22

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### trying to recover from the floods a year ago, 1


### from the wildfires in previous years. 2



### And n ot trying to throw a bunch of facts 3


### about that, but just an understanding of exactly 4


### what's happening today and what we know. And I 5


### don't want to discount what's happening in the 6


### future and what our future generations are going 7


### to have to pay. Knowing th e estimates from the 8



### government are that the cost to change some of 9


### what's happening now, will be 40 percent higher 10


### in 10 years. 11


### But I'm asking you today to make a change 12


### that leads us in the right direction by taking 13


### the steps necessary to finalize a s trong and 14



### clean power plan. 15



### Part of that, I do want to reiterate some 16


### of what Micah just mentioned and before that 350 17


### Colorado has addressed that this is actually sort 18


### of a small step in a way. It is not a huge thing 19


### that will happen and the terrible th ing that will 20


### happen. There are a lot more things that we need 21


### to focus on, especially methane, considering the 22

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### greater impact that it has. But what we know is 1


### that there are consistently and increasingly 2



### variable extreme weather events that are 3


### happenin g today. 4


### We can't guarantee that there will be 5



### more rain tomorrow, or more fires, or more 6


### droughts. But what we can know is that our 7


### abilities to predict and to respond to and to 8



### recover from these events, are actually no match, 9


### and they increase both in severity and in 10


### frequency. And that that cost to delay dealing 11


### with some of these things is on ly going to 12



### increase. 13


### In a way this is more just urging you to 14



### move forward and how you go about that today. 15


### And that's keeping with and will be finalizing 16



### th is clean power plan so that we can move forward 17



### for a future that we want, which includes both 18


### energy independence as a nation, and a 19


### sustainable nation and society as far as energy 20



### goes. 21


### And so this plan, if we want to argue t oo 22

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### that it will kill jobs, w ill ultimately end up 1


### creating new jobs in new industries that are 2


### better positioned for a future in the future that 3


### we all desire as opposed to, you know, relying on 4


### practices and lessons that are grounded in the 5


### past and in old technology, instead of 6



### pos itioning us for that better future that we 7


### really desire. 8


### Additionally, I think that it's equally, 9


### perhaps important that this will allow us 10


### additional leverage and a credible voice in 11


### global climate discussions going forward that the 12



### U.S. does not curren tly have because we have no 13


### plan to address climate change. 14



### So it concerns me that as Americans, we 15


### are fighting against the regulation of a product 16



### and this is specifically addressing the coal 17


### emissions that kills and poisons so many 18



### thousands of us ea ch year. It's a tax subsidize d 19


### and also very expensive and dirty energy source. 20



### And it's a finite resource that's unable to 21


### support a sustainable future. 22

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### So I would urge you, and just say that 1


### there does not seem to be any leadership by 2


### allowing the des tructive effects of coal to 3



### continue unchecked. And so b y virtue of your 4


### mission, being the EPA, to protect human health 5


### and the environment, I think that you have an 6


### obligation to pass these regulations. And I do 7


### think that anything less would really no t meet 8


### the expectations that you have set for 9



### yourselves. 10


### So I think we can choose to look one step 11


### forward, perhaps, and maybe that looks like 12


### continuing to support coal, or not passing these 13


### regulations. Or we can look forward with kind of 14



### our eyes on the horizon of what's possible and 15



### also what's necessary to do to protect both 16



### ourselves and our health and that of the 17



### environment. 18


### I would ask you to pass this, and what 19


### direction are you leading us by making these 20


### decisions. Is it one that's just one step ahead, 21


### or is it a direction that will allow us to grow 22

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### and move towards the sustainable future that we 1



### all desire? 2


### Thank you for taking the time to listen. 3


### I appreciate it. 4



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you
, Mr. Blair. 5


### Next if I can have Anya Vanecek and 6



### Anne li Berube. They're not in the room? 7


### All right. Well, we'll pause until they 8



### arrive. 9



### (Pause.) 10



### MS. SUTIN: We'll go back on the record. 11


### You both want to come up to the podium. Anya, 12


### you can speak first. And please spell your first 13



### and last name for the court reporter. Thanks. 14


### MS. VANECEK: My name is Anya Vanecek. 15



### It's A

- n

- y

- a V

- a

- n

- e

- c

- e

- k. 16



### I'm 22 years old and I'm here to ask you 17


### to finally limit the pollution that is slowly 18


### killing our people and our planet and our 19


### opportunities as a species to thrive. I'm here 20



### to support the clean power plan. 21


### I've been working my whole life for 22

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### something that I thought was pretty set in stone. 1



### I was told that if I worked hard and if I was a 2


### decent person that with a bit of luck I could be 3



### successful. As I grew older, like, you know, 4


### most people I began to realize that that wasn't 5


### exactly how it work ed. You know, I could work 6


### really hard my whole life and I would never get 7


### rich. I might not achieve a position of 8


### authority, might not get to travel the worl d like 9


### by boat which I've always wanted to do, and I 10


### accept that. It's something that we have to 11



### accept as we get older. 12



### But, you know, then I began to pay more 13


### attention to what was happening around me like 14



### the dramatic weather events and these errat ic 15


### temperatures, our ecosystems changing or even 16


### disappearing. And that made it really clear to 17



### me that success was never really about money or 18


### job security or a title, success was a lot more 19


### basic than that. It was living a world where I 20



### don't have to w orry about the air making my 21


### children sick or where vacationing on a distant 22

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### island was a possibility I could aim for even if 1


### I was never able to afford it. It was knowing 2



### that that island exists. 3


### Success at the heart of it was really 4


### contingent on havin g a planet to succeed on. So 5


### now I'm wondering, you know, what am I working 6



### for? 7


### Well, to start, I am working to make sure 8


### that this possibility survives. I can't sit by 9


### while people suffer at the hands of climate 10


### change by losing their homes to floods or fires 11


### or to struggle to breathe in smog

- laden cities. 12


### While our opportunities to innovate and diversify 13



### our sources of energy are stunted by short

- term 14


### profit margins. I can't sit by while we watch 15



### the health of our people and our planet and our 16



### cohab itants deteriorate. I don't want to bring 17



### children into a world like that. 18


### So after graduation I took a job with 19


### Environment Colorado and I've been working as a 20


### community organizer to make sure that my life now 21


### doesn't end in that kind of a tragedy. 22

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### A nd I've worked in the Denver area to 1


### generate the support for these limits on carbon 2


### pollution. I've talked to a lot of people and I 3


### fond that, you know, really the support is 4



### already out there. People from all backgrounds 5


### are eager to see us finally inv est in their 6


### lives, to, you know

-- I'm sorry. To stop 7


### letting, you know, these economic illusions 8


### justify their current and future endangerment. 9


### I've learned that there isn't just one 10



### reason to support these cuts, there are hundreds. 11



### These proposed ru les are safe, they're 12


### affordable, and they're rational, economically, 13


### socially, and environmentally. And like any 14


### piece of politics, they're not perfect, there are 15


### plenty of questions to ask about the rule, but 16


### with nearly everyone I've talked to, it's al ways 17


### really boiled down to one question, and that's, 18


### if we don't act now, will any of the rest of this 19


### matter? You know, where are we going to work 20


### when our resources run dry? Will we travel when 21


### our beaches sink into the sea? And, you know, 22

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### our mountai ns are carved into canyons? 1


### Of all the problems in the world to work 2


### on right now, you know, what will any of those 3


### success matter if we don't succeed in saving our 4


### planet? You know, what will my equal one

- to

- one 5


### pay ratio as a woman buy me? And how wil l I 6


### explain to my children why they're sick? How 7


### will we explain that when we had the chance? 8


### Costs were just too high. So I'm wondering, you 9



### know, if not this, what else is it all for? 10



### Thanks. 11



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Vanecek. 12



### Ms. Berube? 13



### MS. BER UBE: So my name is Anneli Berube, 14



### it's A

- n

- n

- e

- l

- i and Berube is B

- e

- r

- u

- b

- e. And 15



### I am a resident of Colorado for the last four 16



### years. I guess one of the many reasons why I'm 17


### here is the fact that in just that short amount 18


### of time I've seen the impacts of extreme weather 19


### right at my doorstep. So seeing firsthand. 20



### I moved here from Vermont where wildfires 21


### are not really a thing that happens. I saw the 22

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### four

- mile canyon fire in Boulder, just the fall 1



### that I moved there. And then I've since seen two 2



### of t he most destructive wildfires in Colorado 3


### history was around last fall for the devastating 4


### flooding that hit Boulder and the front range. 5


### And, you know, back home in Vermont, it was a 6


### couple years ago now, Hurricane Irene hit and 7



### flooded huge parts of the state and devastated 8


### rural communities that were already struggling in 9



### a lot of ways. 10


### And so I guess that's just one of the 11


### many reasons why I'm here supporting the clean 12


### power plan is because I'm worried about the 13


### impacts of extreme weather getting wors e, and I'm 14


### worried about what future holds. And, you know, 15


### as Anya said, we know this is a smart, 16


### economically viable, and an important thing to 17


### do. And I'm just here to ask you and ask EPA to 18


### put in place the clean power plan as quickly and 19



### as strongly as possible. 20



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. You may both be 21



### seated. 22

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### Next if we can have Jayees h a Dutta and 1



### Scott Hatfield. 2



### MS. DUTTA: Good afternoon, my name is 3



### Jayeesha Dutta, J

- a

- y

- e

- e

- s

- h

- a D

- u

- t

- t

- a. And I 4



### work with the Gulf Restoration at work based in 5



### New Orleans, Louisiana. I was born in Mobile, 6


### Alabama, grew up in New York City, lived in the 7


### bay area of California, end even right here in 8


### Colorado for a few years. Every single one of 9


### these places that I consider my home is suffering 10


### from the impacts of climate change. Devastating 11


### flooding, seal level rise, record droughts, and 12


### stronger storm systems like hurricane Sandy. 13


### As such, this is not only about my work, 14


### this issue is a personal one close to my heart. 15



### The places I am most connected to and the 16



### people who are nearest and dearest to me are 17


### already suffering from the impacts of climate 18


### change. The time to take action is now. Our 19


### community's environment and economy cannot wait 20


### any longer. So I thank you for taking the time 21



### to hear my comments here in Denver today. 22

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### So I coordinate the Gulf Future Coalition 1


### which is a diverse consortia of nearly 60 2


### community environmental arts and social justice 3


### organizations across the five Gulf Coast states 4


### of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and 5



### Flori da. I'm here today to urge the federal 6



### government to take swift, immediate, and 7


### significant action around climate change before 8


### it's too late for many of the communities I am 9


### here representing. 10


### For example, coastal Louisiana 11



### communities and tribes, like the Ildujon Charles 12


### (ph) Band of Biloxi, Chickasaw, Choctaw who are 13


### part of the coalition are becoming the first 14


### climate change refugees of our nation. 15


### The next decade or so will very likely 16


### wipe out the tribes' remaining strip of land as 17



### most of the is land has already been claimed to a 18


### rising sea level due to climate change. 19



### Coastal land locks in areas such as the 20


### island have been accelerated due to oil and gas 21


### canals crisscrossing out delta ecosystem in the 22

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### Gulf. Another impetus for shifting our all iance 1


### on extractive energy to renewable, sustainable 2


### forms of energy production. 3


### Gulf coast communities' ecosystems have 4


### become highly vulnerable to climate change due to 5



### a host of factors such as sea level rise, 6


### subsidence and increasingly strong storm systems 7



### on an annual basis. This has become even more 8


### obvious in the wake of the 2010 deep water 9


### horizon explosion which we will be spending 10


### decades recovering from. 11


### The costs of relocating people and 12


### planning to relocate folks now is cheaper in the 13



### lon g run than scatting impacted citizens to the 14


### wind which we horrifically experienced during 15



### Katrina. 16



### However, we can avoid these relocation 17



### costs and the loss of culture that would 18


### inevitably come with the climate change diasporas 19


### by implementing clean ene rgy standards and 20


### efficiency measures immediately. 21


### In this light it is high time we work not 22

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### only to cut carbon pollution, but decrease our 1


### dependence on all forms of dirty energy. 2


### We support cutting carbon pollution and 3


### commend the current ambitious pl an to move our 4


### country away from dirty coal plants to a clean 5


### energy future. We also believe the proposed plan 6


### must consider the EPA's principles of 7


### environmental justice and climate justice for 8


### guidance. It is essential that in adopting this 9



### plan the EP A fulfill the intent of executive 10



### order 12898. We see a need for the EPA to 11


### conduct a thorough analysis of this proposed 12


### plans' impact on highly vulnerable and 13


### marginalized communities and make that a required 14


### part of the state implementation planning 15



### pro cess. 16


### Additionally, we believe clean energy 17



### solutions must benefit all communities. 18


### Opportunities for clean energy jobs, education, 19


### and affordable alternative energy solutions must 20


### be available for residents living in the most 21


### impacted communities such a s those I currently 22

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### serve in the Gulf Coast, one of the poorest 1


### regions in the country. The state implementation 2


### planning process must include leaders and 3


### advocates from these impacted communities at the 4



### table. And this outreach should be included as a 5



### s ignificant part of the SIP process. 6



### Also at the state level we need to make 7



### sure that access to renewable and alternative 8


### energy opportunities are equitable. We must 9


### encourage a variety of avenues to ensure 10


### eligibility at the widest swath of our citizen ry 11


### to participate in programs for clean energy, 12


### possibly by partnering with community 13


### organizations, churches, and local municipal 14


### agencies. 15


### Please consider these types of 16



### nontraditional collaborations to address an 17


### unprecedented dilemma. 18


### Finally, we be lieve coal exports are a 19



### problem that need to be addressed as well. Gulf 20


### Coast states are feeling the impact of that as 21


### well. Frontline communities in our region near 22

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### coal export terminals and the long rail routes 1



### are often affected by these exports cont ributing 2



### to adverse health consequences, lower property 3


### values, and degradation of our environment. 4


### Further, if the U.S. is not burning this 5


### coal, but by exporting it somewhere else for it 6


### to be consumed, we haven't done anything to 7


### decrease impact on o ur climate. We cannot mine, 8


### transport, ship and burn all that coal and also 9


### avert the worst climate impacts on our globe. As 10


### such we encourage the agency to also adopt strict 11


### regulation enforcement of coal exports in this 12



### plan. 13


### I see the red light. 14



### Whi le the current proposed clean power 15


### plan is a step in the right direction, we urge 16


### the agency to take courageous action in 17


### developing a systemic approach instead of a 18


### symptomatic one. 19


### As I shared with you this afternoon, the 20



### Gulf Coast is on the front l ines in experiencing 21


### the impacts of climate change. 22

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### Again, I thank you for the time to listen 1



### to our concerns. 2



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Dutta. 3


### Okay. Thank you. Mr. Hatfield. Go 4



### ahead. 5


### MR. HATFIELD: Hi, my name is Scott 6



### Hatfield, H

- a

- t

- f

- i

- e

- l

- d . I put these comments 7


### together at the last minute I wasn't really 8


### expecting to be able to speak. I'm glad that I 9



### can. 10


### I thank you for holding this hearing here 11



### in Denver. 12



### I have some concerns about the smokestack 13



### only approach to power plants. I th ink you need 14



### to look at the effects of a fuel more 15


### comprehensively regardless of the type of fuel 16


### whether it be coal or say a nuclear power plant, 17



### or a natural gas plant. There's a lot of other 18


### consequences besides just what comes out of a 19



### smokestack. Fo r coal you have a lot of damage 20


### from the mining, especially in Appalachia. With 21



### nuclear power there's a lot of nuclear waste 22

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### disposition problems that have not been resolved. 1


### These things need to be balanced. 2



### When you have natural gas power plants 3



### you should also look at the total greenhouse gas 4


### emissions associated with burning that fuel. But 5


### not just what's being burned. You have a lot of 6


### methane emissions from fracking. There's huge 7


### amounts of fugitive emissions associated with 8


### fracking that previ ous commenters have talked 9



### about. 10


### Recently activists have been looking at 11


### wells with infrared cameras. You can really see 12


### all of these VOCs just billowing off the wells in 13


### tremendous quantities. I think that that could 14



### be a useful tool for EPA to get some sort of 15


### handle on the quantities of methane being emitted 16


### from wells directly. Even if you can't directly 17


### regulate the wells under the Clean Air Act 18


### because the oil and gas industry is exempt, you 19


### could hopefully limit the use of their product 20



### and th e proliferation of these fracking wells by 21


### regulating the total greenhouse gas emissions 22

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### associated with the fuel and other negative 1


### consequences associated with things like nuclear 2



### power plants. 3



### So you should regulate methane more 4


### strictly from gas wells as well as associated 5


### public health hazards from air quality risks 6


### associated with fracking well. This could be an 7


### avenue to help stop people from getting sick from 8


### breathing the methane and other VOCs associated 9


### with fracking. 10


### The economic consequences of not acting 11


### are much greater than the consequences of acting. 12


### Climate disasters are very expensive. More money 13


### is at stake with these climate disasters beyond 14


### anything that the fossil fuel industry might hope 15


### to profit for the status quo. 16



### We really need to balance or level the 17


### playing field for renewables. Currently fossil 18


### fuels are heavily subsidized. We need to allow 19


### renewables and clean energy the opportunity to 20


### come into play. 21


### We look at some of the industry 22

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### attitudes, accusations, and valid ity of claims 1


### really makes me wonder if these climate disasters 2



### are an act of malice from the industry. It's not 3


### just callousness or, oh, we just wanted the 4


### money. They know they're lying, those climate 5


### change deniers. And seem to have very little 6



### self respect. We know they're lying, they know 7


### they're lying. 8


### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Hatfield. 9



### Don Parcher? 10


### MR. PARCHER: Good evening. Don Parcher, 11



### P

- a

- r

- c

- h

- e

- r. My primary affiliation is 12


### community volunteer. As someone who cares about 13



### people and t he earth, I strongly support the 14


### EPA's clean power plan. As an informed person 15


### I'm convinced that human activity is the primary 16


### cause for climate change, or as I would rather 17



### call it, climate chaos. 18


### As a proud American, I think the U.S. 19



### needs to lead o n this issue. As a veteran, I'm a 20


### retired Navy pilot, and had 36 colleagues die 21


### while flying, I'm concerned about the possibility 22

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### of climate change causing additional unnecessary 1



### conflict, which is loss of life. 2



### As the author of the the Checklist Book 3



### fo r Living Better and Longer and Saving the Earth 4



### and as the founder of Checklist.com on which I 5


### featured an extensive checklist for saving the 6


### earth the last five years, I support this plan. 7



### As a volunteer on almost a full

- time 8


### basis since the September fl ooding in the Boulder 9


### area, I've been volunteering with Boulder Flood 10


### Relief and the Boulder County Long

- Term Flood 11



### Recovery Group as a volunteer case manager, and 12



### I'm on the board of directors, vice chair for 13


### Boulder Relief Co. I'm really concerned about 14


### the impact of climate change on extreme weather 15



### events. And through that volunteer work I've 16


### experienced a lot of people who have been very 17



### emotional about this issue. Residents who have 18


### been affected by flooding and so forth including 19



### one man who it wa s a week or two after the 20


### flooding there was a forecast of rain that night 21


### and he was frantically digging a ditch to divert 22

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### water around his property and he ended up on his 1


### knees crying and we were able to get someone to 2


### him to console him, a psychologist type person, 3


### and we were told later that we probably saved his 4


### life. But this is a very serious issue for a lot 5



### of people. 6



### And as a volunteer for Citizen Climate 7


### Lobby, I'm the liaison with Senator Bennett's 8


### office, went to the Citizens Climate Lobby 9



### conference in June in D.C. Two of us talked with 10



### Senator Bennett and four of us talked with 11


### Senator Udall and they're very supportive of the 12


### Citizens Climate Lobby's efforts to enact a 13



### revenue neutral carbon tax. We feel strongly 14



### that's the best way to r eally tackle this 15



### critical issue. 16



### And both of those Senators seemed very 17


### supportive of the revenue neutral carbon tax, but 18


### they told us without support from the 19


### Republicans, there's nothing they can do. So 20


### another reason why I support this plan is it's 21



### s omething we can do. It's a feasible step now 22

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### that can be taken. 1


### So, again, as a concerned inhabitant of 2



### the earth, I support the clean power plan. I 3


### believe it's a small, but very critical step in 4


### the right direction. 5



### Thank you very much. 6



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Parcher. 7


### Okay. We'll pause, we're waiting for 8


### other people to come to provide their testimony. 9



### So we'll come back when we have some 10



### other speakers. Thank you. 11


### (Brief recess taken at 6:06 p.m.) 12



### (Record resumes at 6:18 p.m.) 13



### MS. SUT IN: We are going to continue to 14



### be on break until 6:45. We will come back then 15


### and see if we have any commenters. So, thank 16



### you. 17


### If there is anybody in the room who does 18



### want to speak that hasn't, please feel free to go 19


### to the registration desk and pu t your name in and 20


### we're happy to fit you in. We have the time. 21



### Thanks. 22

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### (Brief recess taken at 6:19 p.m.) 1



### (Record resumes at 6:45 p.m.) 2



### MS. SUTIN: Come on in. Ms. Cohen, if 3


### you want to come up to the podium? And if you 4



### could please spell your name

-- first and last 5



### name for the court reporter that would be great. 6



### MS. COHEN: Sure. It's Elisabeth, E

- l

- i

7



### s

- a

- b

- e

- t

- h Cohen, C

- o

- h

- e

- n. 8



### MS. SUTIN: Go ahead. 9


### MS. COHEN: My name is Elisabeth Cohen. 10


### I'm an atmospheric science public affairs 11


### specialist and mother to a baby girl. 12


### When I was a child my favorite thing to 13



### do was to look up at the clouds and to look at 14


### the cloud shapes and figure out what they were. 15


### That fascination with our atmosphere led me to 16


### earn a bachelors and masters degree studyi ng it. 17



### While in school I realized what a 18


### profound impact humans are making to our climate 19


### by emitting pollution, namely carbon dioxide and 20



### other greenhouse gases. We see these climate 21


### change impacts in our own back yards with changes 22

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### in snowpack and runo ff in our national parks and 1


### monuments as glaciers melt and species shift, and 2


### around the world at sea levels rise and global 3



### weather patterns change. 4


### We have the opportunity to do something 5


### about it by reducing our carbon pollution. The 6



### EPA's clean powe r plan is a flexible way to 7


### reduce carbon emissions while spurring new jobs 8


### and sustaining our economy. 9


### Climate change impacts is here and now 10


### and will continue to impact my daughter's 11


### generation. I would like her to be able to look 12


### up at the sky in the future and not worry about 13


### what my generation has done to our climate, but 14



### instead think about how the United States 15


### Environmental Protection Agency made history and 16


### decided to encourage its citizens to harness 17


### energy from the sky like wind, solar, and 18



### hyd ropower instead of polluting it. 19



### Thank you. 20



### MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 21



### (Applause.) 22

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### PARTICIPANT: No clapping. 1



### MS. SUTIN: We'll allow it this one time. 2



### (Laughter.) 3



### MS. COHEN: Thank you. 4



### MS. SUTIN: You're welcome. 5


### So we will go back and pause the hearing 6


### until we have anther speaker. I would say check 7


### back again at 6:45. 8



### Thank you. 9



### (Pause.) 10



### MS. NOONAN : Good evening, everyone. Can 11



### you hear me? I'm Jenny Noonan, and thank you 12


### very much for coming out tonight on a rainy 13


### night. I'm one of th e chairs of today's public 14


### hearing, and, again, thank you for coming. 15


### I am joined today on the panel by Nate 16



### McMichael and Colin Boswell. 17


### We are here this evening to listen to 18



### your comments on two proposed rules to reduce 19


### carbon pollution from power plan ts. EPA 20



### announced both of these proposals on June 2, 21



### 2014. 22

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### If you would like more details on either 1



### of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 2


### available near the registration desk. 3


### Today's hearing is one of four public 4


### hearings across the country th is week on the two 5


### proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 6


### in each of these hearings and I would like to 7


### thank you for coming out and joining us tonight. 8


### I think we know everyone here has been 9


### registered and you are all in the right place. 10



### And l et's talk about how today's hearing will 11



### work. 12


### I will call you up and please come to the 13


### front of the room to the podiums and please state 14


### your name and spell it for the court reporter. 15



### Your comments will be transcribed and 16



### included in the record of c omments on the 17



### proposed rule. Each of you will have h ave five 18


### minutes to give your comments. We have this 19



### timer here that has a light on it, we'll let you 20



### know how m uch time you have left to speak. When 21


### the light turns from green to yellow, that means 22

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### y ou have one minute remaining. When it turns 1


### red, that's a signal to wrap up your testimony. 2


### The light will flash red and then beep when you 3


### have spoken for five minutes and it's time to 4



### stop. 5


### When you are finished speaking, please

-- 6



### you do whatever yo u want when you're done 7


### speaking. That seems like an okay thing to do. 8


### We are here to listen to you today. 9



### However a panel member may ask you a clarify ing 10


### question

. 11



### If you have brought a written copy of 12


### your testimony, please give that to the staff a t 13


### the registration desk or one of us before you 14



### leave today

. 15


### If you have additional comments you would 16


### like to make, you may submit them in writing and 17



### the information on how to do that is also 18


### available in the registration room. 19



### Let me assure you that E PA gives just as 20



### much consideration to comments we receive in 21


### writing as we do to the comments we receive at 22

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### public hearings like this one. 1


### There is plenty of time to get written 2



### comments in because the comment period ends on 3



### October 16, 2014. 4



### We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 5


### tonight. 6



### And f inally, please turn off your cell 7



### phones. 8


### Thank you, again, for taking the time 9



### today to come out today and let's ge t started. 10



### Thanks. 11



### Mr. and Ms. M a sias? Sam M a sias and Mike 12



### -- Mr. Michael Saul. 13



### Thank you . And Mr. Mills, you will be 14


### right after that. 15



### MR. M A SIAS : Thank you. My name is Sam 16



### M a sias. 17


### MS. NOONAN: I think that's not on. Try 18



### over there and see if that's better. 19



### MR. M A SIAS: My name is Sam M a sias. No? 20


### (Microphone problems.) 21



### MR. M A SIAS: Can you hear me okay? 22

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### MS. NOONAN: As long as he can hear you, 1



### we're good. And this is his mike, so

-- 2


### MR. MASIAS: My name is Sam Masias, last 3


### name is spell M

- a

- s

- i

- a

- s. I'm a lifelong 4


### Colorado resident and I live in Colorado Springs 5



### and I'm here to t alk about my support of the EPA 6


### for the climate change rules. 7


### And first I want to start off by saying a 8


### personal story. I believe in the EPA and I'll 9


### tell you why. When I was a young man just out of 10


### high school growing up, in Manito Springs just 11



### south of here, my wife and I had a child at a 12


### very early age and we bought a house up in Manito 13


### Springs and like everybody in the '70s we did 14


### some remodeling where we drilled holes in the 15


### wall and installed urea formaldehyde foam. And 16


### this foam was used widely for insulation of 17



### homes. 18


### And that foam after we put it in, shortly 19



### thereafter the EPA banned it from the 20


### marketplace, took it off the market. And we 21


### didn't know exactly why. We were just young kids 22

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### with a young baby. Unfortunately that young baby 1



### lived in the upstairs bedroom that was her area 2


### and that foam emitted gases that affected her 3


### neurological system. She eventually had developed 4


### when she was 13 epilepsy which she will have for 5



### the rest of her adult life. 6


### So I believe that the EPA was right in 7


### banning that. I believe the EPA does a good job 8


### in a lot of respects for protecting the health 9



### and environment. And I don't want to see some 10


### other children poisoned by toxic gases that are 11


### emitted by coal power plants. 12



### And as a grandfather now, I want to look 13


### out for grandchildren and their grandchildren. 14



### And I'm here today because of that to talk about 15


### specifically the Martin Drake Power Plant in 16


### Colorado Springs. 17


### Martin Drake unfortunately is a dirty old 18


### man and he hurts children indiscriminately

. 19


### There are 30,000 children living within five 20



### miles of Martin Drake Power Plant. And these 21


### children are ages zero through nine. And we know 22

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### that the submicronic particles that are emitted 1



### by the carbon

-- the coal

- fired power plant, 2


### those submicronic p articles get into the lungs of 3


### small children and they go through the mucous 4


### membranes and they get into the blood stream. So 5


### it's kind of a lottery of what child will get 6


### those particles into their lungs. 7


### And with Martin Drake sitting there in 8



### downtown Colorado Springs, and the fumes from 9



### that power plant have been shown, there's a 10


### distribution map that shows where these fumes go. 11


### We know that there are five elementary schools 12


### that are affected directly by the Martin Drake 13



### power plant. 14



### Now, I've been trying to get this power 15


### plant shut down for the last about five years 16



### before even these EPA rules came into the 17


### hearings that we are today. And I'll continue to 18



### work on that. 19


### One of the things I like to say is, 20


### there's different stages of activism. So one of 21


### the stages is, I'm really angry about something, 22

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### I'm going to like a Facebook page, or I'm really 1


### angry, I'm going to send an e

- mail to all my 2


### friends. Or I'm really angry, I'm going to 3


### attend a meeting or attend an EPA meeting. But I 4



### went beyond that. I went to federal court and 5


### sued Colorado Springs Utilities to shut down that 6


### power plant the week of May 16th of this year 7



### because of a fire that occurred there which 8


### emitted toxic fumes over Colorado Springs. And 9


### the judge dismissed that case, b ut he was very 10


### magnanimous inasmuch as he knew I was filing pro 11


### se, I'm not an attorney, and he said, you know, I 12


### understand what you're doing. I see that you're 13


### passionate about it, and he said, "It's not that 14


### you don't have a case, you just need to use the 15


### proper citations in the proper forum." 16


### So I'm going to come back and sue them 17


### again and I hope that we can close down that 18


### power plant once and for all and I appreciate the 19


### opportunity that I can come here and speak and 20


### put this on the public record

. 21



### Thank you. 22

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### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. 1



### Mr. Saul? 2



### MR. SAUL: Good evening, Michael Saul, S

3



### a

- u

- l. 4


### Thank you. My name is Michael Saul. I'm 5


### an attorney for the Center for Biological 6


### Diversity, but I'm also the father of two

- year

7



### old twins, an d that's the real reason I am so 8


### deeply concerned about the climate that we're 9


### going to leave to them and to future generations. 10


### I'd like to begin by commending the EPA 11


### for finally taking action under Clean Air Act 12



### Section 111(d) to address what is the ch ief 13


### environmental challenge of our time, the threat 14


### to prosperity, health, and biodiversity posed by 15


### unchecked carbon pollution and ensuing climate 16



### change. 17


### Unfortunately, however, I believe the 18


### proposed rule falls short of the minimum 19


### pollution cuts neede d to avert catastrophic 20


### levels of global warming. In particular, there 21


### is overwhelming scientific consensus 22

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### demonstrating that the proposed rule should be 1


### strengthened in three principal respects. 2


### First, by setting stricter emissions 3


### reduction targets b ased on substantial reductions 4


### from the 1990 baseline emission levels recognized 5


### in the Kyoto protocol. 6


### Second, by taking full account of the 7


### significant externalities of methane emissions 8


### involved with increasing reliance on natural gas 9


### generation. 10



### A nd third, by setting far more bold and 11


### ambitious goals for a transition to sustainable, 12



### renewable sources of energy. 13



### The fundamental purpose of the proposed 14


### rule is correct. Climate change has far

- reaching 15


### harmful consequences and real economic costs i n 16


### addressing carbon pollution now from fossil fuel, 17



### electric

- generating units is an essential 18


### component of any real response to this crisis. 19


### We need to act immediately and decisively to 20


### avert tipping points and unmanageable levels of 21


### temperature rise and coastal flooding. 22

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### But the proposed rule doesn't get us 1


### there. It delays meaningful action far too long 2


### until 2030, it encourages additional natural gas 3


### generation and extraction and it fails to mandate 4


### critically needed investments in conservation and 5



### renewable energy. 6


### First, the emission reduction targets 7


### don't go far enough. The Clean Air Act obligates 8


### the agency to set a best system of emission 9



### reduction based on reliable science, not 10


### political expediency. 11



### The clear scientific con s ensus of the 12



### la st set of reports from the International Panel 13


### on Climate Change and others is that developed 14



### countries such as the United States need to 15


### reduce our emissions by 25 to up to 50 percent 16


### from 1990 levels by 2020 in order to hold global 17


### warming at a difficult , but manageable 2 degree 18



### Celsius. 19


### The proposed rule though utilizes 2005 as 20


### its baseline. That was the height of U.S. 21


### emissions and using that baseline though it 22

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### improperly claims credit for reductions that have 1



### occurred already between 2005 and 2015, and it 2


### fails to achieve the scientifically validated 3


### targets for limiting the public health, 4



### environmental and economic harm from unchecked 5


### warming. 6


### Second, because of persistence of 7


### greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, we need those 8



### reductions over the n ext six years, not over the 9



### next 15. 10



### Second, we believe that the rule is 11


### deficient in its heavy reliance on a building 12


### block of replacing coal generation with natural 13


### gas plants, plants that the rule assumes will be 14


### effectively less carbon intensive. 15



### H owever, the proposed rule first fails to 16


### increase efficiency standards for existing 17


### natural gas plants and more importantly we 18



### believe there's substantial scientific evidence 19


### that the proposed rule understates the climate 20


### harms of natural gas generation by failing to use 21



### reasonable means to account for methane leakage 22

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### and the intense and short

- term greenhouse gas 1


### effects of atmospheric methane. 2


### Also by encouraging more natural gas 3


### development this would impose substantial 4



### externalities on the communities d irectly 5


### affected by drilling infrastructure and fracking. 6


### Finally, the proposed rule falls short in 7


### its standards for renewable energy and energy 8


### conservation although we have available 9


### reasonable and practical road maps for getting to 10



### 70 percent renewabl es by 2030 the proposed rules 11



### targets of only around 13 percent falls short of 12


### several states' existing standards, EPA needs to 13


### be leading the way, not lagging behind the states 14



### on this. 15



### Thank you very much. 16



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 17



### Thank you very much. And please submit 18


### any additional comments for the record. 19



### MR. SAUL: I've submitted these in 20


### writing and we will be submitting detailed 21


### technical comments by the October deadline. 22

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### MS. NOONAN: Great. Thank you very much. 1


### Mr. Kirk Mills please? 2



### MR. M ILLS: My name is Kirk, K

- i

- r

- k, 3



### Mills, M

- i

- l

- l

- s. Thank you for this opportunity 4



### to comment on the clean power rules. I am an 5


### environmental engineer by vocation, and by 6


### avocation a climate change activist with 350.org. 7


### 350 gets its name from the 350 p arts per 8


### million that was considered by James Hanson, then 9


### the leading climate change scientist for NOAA, as 10


### a save level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. 11


### And of course, right now we are approximately at 12


### 400 parts per million of carbon dioxide in the 13



### atmosphere. 14


### While I am supportive of the EPA clean 15


### power rules and compliment EPA on going forward 16


### with these rules, I too feel that they are only a 17


### modest step in the right direction and not nearly 18



### large enough. 19



### James Hanson and others have calculat ed 20



### that to stay at the safe level of 2 degrees 21


### centigrade in the atmosphere which is about the 22

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### only thing that the world has agreed upon and 1


### with respect to climate change, that about two

2



### thirds to three

- quarters of known fossil fuel 3


### reserves, including co al, need to stay in the 4



### ground. And we need to move more towards 5


### absolute limits rather than just percentage 6


### reductions if we are going to accomplish that. 7



### As you know Colorado has suffered severe 8



### drought, record

- breaking wildfires, and then epic 9



### floods last September estimated to be maybe the 10



### 500 to 1,000 year storm. So we have seen 11


### firsthand the consequences and catastrophic 12


### effects, economically, socially of climate 13



### change. 14



### And Colorado also has been a real leader 15


### in renewable energy implementation and while many 16


### predicted this to be an economic hardship, in 17


### fact, it's really been an economic driver through 18



### our recession. 19



### So I believe that in fact this rule will 20


### help to spur economic innovations. We'll have 21


### many other collateral benefits such as reductions 22

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### in air pollution. Virtually all of our major 1



### water bodies that are west of the I

- 25 corridor 2



### have mercury to the extent that we have to have 3



### fish advisories on those water bodies so that 4


### people don't eat too much fish and bio accumulate 5



### mercury

. 6


### We also know that we'll have particulate 7


### matter reductions, acid gas reductions, et 8



### cetera. 9


### I think a lot of the doom and gloom 10


### that's been stated about these rules is way 11


### overwrought. The EPA rules have historically 12


### always been predicted to be way too expensive and 13


### damaging to the economy. But in retrospect the 14


### economic benefits, even without being able to 15


### quantify some of the major ones have typically 16


### far outweighed the costs. 17


### And I think the White House just 18


### published something today that wai ting to address 19


### climate change will eventually add $40 billion 20


### per year in additional costs that will have to be 21



### addressed. 22

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### Again, thank you for this opportunity. 1



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 2


### MR. MILLS: Questions? 3



### (No response.) 4



### MR. MILLS: Okay. Thank you. 5



### MS. NOONAN: Next up, Mr. Karl Ford? 6



### If you could say and spell your name? 7



### MR. FORD: Okay. My name is Karl Ford, 8



### K

- a

- r

- l, F

- o

- r

- d. 9



### Shall I proceed? 10



### MS. NOONAN: Please. 11



### MR. FORD: So I 'm a retired scientist or 12


### biologist. I try to keep info rmed. And I want 13


### to cite a couple of things from the literature 14


### concerning conservation biology, actually, and 15


### climate change. 16


### Ten years ago, a landmark article 17


### appeared in Nature by Thomas Edall (ph), and 18


### that's the world's preeminent scholarly journal 19


### for biology. The article was entitled, 20


### "Extension Risks from Climate Change"; this was 21



### ten years ago. 22

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### So they coupled the available global 1


### circulation models with ecological models and 2


### they predicted the loss of over a million species 3



### due to climate ch ange. 4


### More specifically they predict 18 to 34 5


### percent of the estimated five million terrestrial 6


### species will be lost. Naturally the article 7


### caused a storm in the media and among scientists. 8



### Thomas Edall stands today as a 9



### conservative estimate because c urrent predictions 10


### are even larger concentrations of greenhouse 11


### gases. It is also conservative because marine 12


### species were not included in the study. We know 13


### now that marine species are vulnerable to ocean 14


### acidification for the greenhouse gases including 15


### coral reefs that house the greatest marine 16


### diversity in the world. Perhaps another million 17


### marine species are threatened. I was just 18


### looking today at some of the literature on line 19


### concerning that. And that's pretty legitimate. 20


### According to another 20 11 article in 21


### Nature, this one by Barnofsky, et al, a 22

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### paleontologist characterized mass extinctions as 1



### times when the earth loses more than three

2


### quarters of its species in a geologically short 3


### interval as has happened only five times in the 4



### assistant 540 million years. 5


### Biologists now suggest that a sixth mass 6


### extinction may be underway within a couple of 7


### centuries given the known species losses over the 8


### past few centuries and millennia. 9


### Scientists today are calling the present 10


### geological heat up the anthrocene because of the 11


### effect of human kind on earth, notably climate 12


### change coupled with invasive species and habitat 13


### loss. They are also warning us that there's 14


### plenty of evidence that we are in the sixth great 15


### mass extinction today. 16



### Is this the w orldwide legacy we want to 17



### leave to our descendents? We should be ashamed 18


### if we knew and we chose to do nothing. 19


### I fully support EPA's efforts to limit 20



### greenhouse gases. 21



### MS. NOONAN: If you have any of those 22

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### articles that you would like to submit for t he 1



### record, we would be happy to have them. The 2



### information about how to do that is in the

-- 3


### MR. FORD: I can provide them at a later 4



### time. I don't have them with me. 5


### MS. NOONAN: Absolutely. You have until 6



### October 16th to send them in. 7



### MR. FORD: D o you want the citations? 8



### MS. NOONAN: Sure. Whatever you would 9



### like to send. 10



### Great, thank you. 11


### Is there anyone else who would like to 12


### testify? 13



### (No response.) 14


### MS. NOONAN: All right. We're going to 15


### adjourn the hearing for a few minutes. We'll 16


### adj ourn until 7:25 and we'll come back then if 17



### there are more speakers. 18


### (Brief recess taken at 7:09 p.m.) 19



### (Record resumes at 7:25 p.m.) 20



### MS. NOONAN: Welcome back, we are please 21


### to reconvene this public hearing for the last 22

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### half hour or so. And we have two other folks who 1


### would like to testify, Peter Satoe, would you 2


### like to come up? 3


### And the brief summary of what you need to 4


### know, you get to talk for five minutes. When it 5


### turns yellow, you have one minute left. When it 6



### turns red and beeps, you need to st op. 7


### And when you start up there, just say 8


### your name loudly and spell it. 9



### MR. SATOE: I am Reverend Peter Satoe, a 10



### resident of Denver, an ordained minister of the 11



### United Church of Christ, and executive director 12


### of Ecojustice Ministries. 13



### It was 20 year s ago, in 1994 that the 14


### reality and the severity of global warming hit 15


### home for me. I had known of the impact of carbon 16


### dioxide on the atmosphere before that. I had 17



### tracked the climate discussions at the Rio 18


### conference in 1992, and seen religious leaders of 19


### many faith traditions start to address the matter 20


### as an issue of justice and faithful stewardship. 21



### But in '94 I took several weeks to delve 22

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### into a concentrated study of environmental 1


### science and religious ethics. I learned far more 2


### about the rapid ra te of climate change, the 3


### severity of impacts, the long

- term consequences 4


### of humanity's disruption of climate systems. 5


### What I had known in my head moved into my heard 6


### and soul and my life was changed. 7



### Because of that summer 20 years ago, my 8



### vocation in Christian ministry is now dedicated 9



### to the transformation of individuals, 10


### institutions and society so that we may 11


### dramatically reduce our climate impacts and so 12


### that we may turn towards a just and sustainable 13


### way of living. 14


### Ecojustice Ministries, the a gency that I 15


### founded, works with pastors and church leaders 16


### all across the United States bringing a religious 17


### call for urgent action on climate issues. 18


### Twenty years ago when my life was turned 19


### around by the emerging climate crisis, atmosphere 20



### CO2 was at about 358 parts per million. This 21


### summer the readings have been touching 400. 22

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### Twenty years ago I was horrified at that 1


### predictions of future climate impacts. Today we 2


### are already seeing impacts that are more severe 3


### and coming more quickly than the sc ientists have 4


### predicted. Our global culture is rushing toward 5


### climate chaos and those changes are well 6



### documented in both the national climate 7


### assessment and the background section of the 8



### EPA's proposed rules. 9



### So I am grateful to the EPA for the 10



### proposed rules to limit carbon dioxide emissions 11


### from existing power plants. With CO2 levels now 12


### going up by more than two

- parts per million per 13


### year, getting some control over our largest 14


### source of our country's CO2 emissions is 15



### absolutely necessary and long ove rdue. 16


### While I am grateful for the proposed 17


### rules, I also do not think that they are strong 18



### enough or fast enough to address the scope of the 19



### climate crisis. Much of the reductions from 2005 20


### levels have already been accomplished. The small 21



### scale of reduc tions that are proposed between 22

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### 2020 and 2030 are inadequate. And I call on the 1



### EPA to require far more substantial reductions in 2



### the final decade of the plan with increased 3


### emphasis on renewable energy and conservation. 4


### In my work with churches, I am of ten in 5


### conversation with people whose growing awareness 6



### of climate threats leads to heartfelt concerns 7


### about their kids. They come to me wrestling with 8


### question, what kind of world do I want to leave 9


### for my children and grandchildren. I often tell 10



### them t heir question is good, but not quite right. 11


### We should be asking, what kind of world do our 12


### children and grandchildren have a right to expect 13



### from us? 14


### The answer, of course, is that they have 15


### a right to a livable world. They have a right to 16



### a world where runaway global warming is not 17


### causing extreme weather, disrupting agriculture, 18


### raising sea levels, devastating freshwater 19


### supplies, forcing mass migrations, and triggering 20



### wars. 21


### To respect the rights of future 22

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### generations, to provide any hope of a liva ble 1


### world, the United States must move quickly and 2


### decisively to cut our greenhouse emissions. 3


### The proposed rules on emissions from 4


### existing power plants is a step in the right 5


### direction. I urge the EPA to strengthen the 6


### regulations and move us more quic kly toward 7



### renewable energy sources. 8



### Thank you. 9



### MS. NOONAN: Great. Thank you so much. 10


### Kim Stephens? 11



### MS. STEPHENS: Hi. Thank you all so much 12


### for having us today and yesterday. My name is 13


### Kim Stephens. I am the campaign director with 14



### Environment C olorado and I represent tens of 15



### thousands of Coloradoan all across the state who 16


### support our work to protect Colorado's air, water 17



### and open spaces. And thousands of who have taken 18


### action on this exact issue coming from all over 19


### the state to testify to you during these public 20


### hearings, sign public comments and, you know, 21


### actually volunteer their own time to help get 22

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### more citizens in their community engaged on what 1


### they see as that biggest

-- and we see as the 2


### biggest issue facing our society which is global 3


### warming. So in Colorado we are already seeing 4


### the impacts of a changing climate from, you know, 5


### severe drought and wildfires over the past few 6


### years followed by the historic flooding in the 7


### fall. And these are just the type of events that 8


### scientists say are going to become more frequent 9


### and severe if we fail to reduce the pollution 10


### that is contributing to this problem which is 11



### carbon dioxide. 12


### And while we need to be reducing all 13


### carbon emissions nationally, the Environmental 14


### Colorado sees this plan as a vital step forward 15


### to cut the largest contributor to the problem 16



### which is the carbon emissions from coal

- fired 17



### power plants. 18



### So Environmental Colorado number one 19


### applauds the EPA's work responding to such an 20


### urgent problem. But given the scope of the 21



### p roblem and how urgent it is, we definitely call 22

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### for the rule to be as strong as possible and to, 1


### you know, continue to move forward clean energy 2



### solutions. 3


### And the great news is that we are not 4


### starting from scratch so we draw on almost a 5



### decade of invest ments in clean energy here in 6



### Colorado and other states across the U.S. So 7


### continuing to do that and continuing to set even 8


### stronger limits for carbon emissions both in 9


### Colorado and nationally. 10


### So, again, thank you so much for all of 11



### your work and for being here and listening to all 12


### of us and please make this rule as strong as 13


### possible. Thanks. 14



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 15


### Kelly Davis? And please spell your first 16



### and last name? 17



### MS. DAVIS: K

- e

- l

- l

- y D

- a

- v

- i

- s. 18


### Good evening. Thank you for giving me 19



### th e opportunity to speak here. I am an 20



### environment al attorney. I practice public 21



### interest environmental law with the Environment 22

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### Law Clinic at the University of Denver, St u rm 1



### College of Law. I'm speaking on behalf of myself 2



### here today. 3



### The effects of cli mate change are here 4


### and now. I'm not going to reiterate what I'm 5


### sure has already been said many times. You can 6


### just look outside and see it. I feel like we 7


### live in the tropics with this late summer rainy 8


### season going on right now. And there's been a 9


### lot of attention on this proposed rule. I know 10


### it's very controversial and a very popular issue 11


### to speak about warranting this second day. 12



### And I think that's because this is a new 13


### thing, this is change, this has never been done 14



### before by the EPA, regulat ing carbon pollution 15


### and change can be scary and it's almost always 16



### met with resistance. But that doesn't mean that 17


### you should necessarily give in to the resistance 18


### because if we did, we might still have slavery or 19


### women being seen as property. 20



### So chang e can be good and I think this is 21



### a really good step forward. I support the 22

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### proposed rule. 1


### From an attorney's standpoint, I don't 2


### want to get too wonky, but in my line of work 3


### we're often in the business of either challenging 4



### the EPA's decisions in cou rt or being on the 5



### defendant, intervener side to defend them and I 6


### believe this rule is legally defensible. I think 7



### that probably you can expect a challenge from 8


### industry, but that in my opinion you have a 9


### really good chance of winning any legal challenge 10


### because the statutory background is really well 11


### put and I think the science and policy and legal 12


### authority all line up to support this rule. And 13


### I know that EPA gets a lot of deference in the 14



### courts. I should know because I've lost cases 15



### based on the hi ghly deferential standard that's 16



### warranted. 17


### But, I just want to let you all know that 18


### there are plenty of environmental organizations 19



### that are ready to step up and help defend the 20



### rule in court should it come to that. 21


### In closing, I recently wrote a pap er 22

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### about how the OMB and OIRA take a long time to 1


### review proposed rules especially the EPA's 2



### proposed rules that could affect the economy 3


### possibly. And I just want to say I hope that for 4


### this one they do not take an unduly long time in 5


### reviewing and appro ving it. 6



### Thank you. 7



### MS. NOONAN: Okay. Thank you very much. 8


### Is there anyone else here who would like 9



### to speak? 10



### (No response.) 11


### MS. NOONAN: All right. I think we're 12


### going to be in recess for maybe ten minutes. 13


### We'll come back at ten of and we'll j ust make 14


### sure that nobody else is here and then we'll just 15


### wait here from 7:50 to 8:00 to make sure everyone 16



### who

-- last minute folks we'll get them in. So 17



### thank you. 18


### (Brief recess taken at 7:37 p.m.) 19



### (Record resumes at 8:00 p.m.) 20



### MS. NOONAN: This con cludes the public 21


### hearing in Denver. Thank you for all who have 22

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### attended and given testimony. I am closing the 1



### record. Let the record show that it is 8:01, the 2



### record is closed. 3


### [Whereupon, at 8 : 01 p.m., the Clean Power 4



### Plan Public Hearing concluded.] 5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

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