1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on the

7 Proposed Clean Power Plans for 

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:02 a.m. to 8:01 p.m.

13 Wednesday, July 30, 2014

14

15

16 ROOM B

17 EPA REGION 8 BUILDING

18 1595 Wynkoop Street

19 Denver, Colorado 80202

20

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1 EPA Panel A:

2 ELAYANA SUTIN

3

4 LAURA FERRIS

5

6 DENISE MULHOLLAND, Office of Atmospheric 

7 Programs, Washington, D.C. 

8

9 EPA Panel B:

10 SCOTT JACKSON

11 ABBY FULTON

12 ANGELA GIAZ

13

14 EPA Panel C:

15 ELAYANA SUTIN

16 NATE McMICHAEL, Office of Air and Radiation

17 Programs, Washington, D.C.

18 COLIN BOSWELL, Office of Air and Radiation, North 

19 Carolina

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22

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 Session A

4 JOHN ATKERSON, Nebraska Wildlife Federation 18

5 MARGARET ROGERS, Colorado resident 22

6 BRAD LEWIS, Westmoreland Energy Services 25

7 VIVIAN WINESTEIN, Colorado resident 29

8 JOSHUA ZIE, ERCC Counsel 36

9 DUSTY ROSE, Local Union 1984, Price Utah 42

10 DAVID ALLENBERGER, National Wildlife Fed. 45

11 LAWRENCE OLIVER, Peabody Western Coal 51

12 JEN FILIAULT, Boston, Massachusetts 54

13 JEFF WODSWORTH, Puter Valley REA 59

14 MIKE KOPP, Intermountain Rural Elec Asso. 64

15 KENT SINGER, Executive Director, CREA 69

16 RYAN SHININGER, Amango Solar 74

17 STEVE STEVENS, Colorado resident 77

18 SEAN GALLEGOS, Boilermakers Local 101 81

19 SONNY KELLY, Colorado resident 86

20 JACK IHLE, Xcel Energy 91

21 MICHAEL HIATT, Earth Justice 96

22 LUSTA SCEINS, Conservation Coalition 100

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION A (continued)

4 SIMON MOSTAFA, Colorado resident 106

5 MARK OURADA, Central Region ACCCE 112

6 MICHELLE FREEARK, AEPCO 116

7 JOSEPH FROSS, IBB Local 101 122

8 ABBY KREBSBACH, Montana Dakota Utilities Co. 125

9 PERCEY DEAL, Colorado Resident 131

10 LIZ LITERAL, Colorado Resident 136

11 DOUG GRANDT, Lincoln, Nebraska Resident 138

12 BRENTON DOLF, Colorado Resident 143

13 GEORGE WILSON, IBEW Local 111, Denver, CO 147

14 KATY RAITZ, Colorado Resident 152

15 MATTHEW APPELBAUM, Mayor of Boulder, CO 156

16 KATY REYNOLDS, Colorado Resident 160

17 ELLEN PLANE, Colorado Resident 164

18 KAITLYN SEELEY, Colorado Resident 168

19 MATT REED, Colorado Resident 171

20 JOE RUPP, Colorado Resident 172

21 ALEXANDRA SCHLERETH, Colorado Resident 174

22 KATRINA RILEY, Colorado Resident 175

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION B (continued)

4 BILL BEARDSLEY-SCHOONMAKER, Colorado Resident 177

5 SCOTT ALBERTSON, Boilermakers Local 133, MO 179

6 SCOTT JACKSON, EPA Staff 184

7 TERRY CARWILE, Mayor of Craig, Colorado 191

8 COLLEEN COOLEY, Colorado Resident 195

9 CAROL STREAMER, Boulder County Beekeepers 201

10 DAVID ELLENBERGER, National Wildlife Fed. 206

11 DAVE CHADWICK, Montana Wildlife Federation 210

12 JEFF DELANEY, Colorado Resident 216

13 KAREN SJOBERG, Citizens for Clean Air 220

14 PATRICK DEMMER, Community Church 224

15 FANNIE EDDY, American Association of Blacks 227

16 In Energy 

17 BRADEN MIGUEL, Colorado Resident 229

18 DWAYNE RICHARDS, Western Fuel Association 232

19 MARK FARNSWORTH, Highline Electric Asso. 238

20 CLEO BREEZE, Colorado Black Women for 244

21 Political Action

22 JIM LUODDLE, Sierra Club 247

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION B (continued)

4 MICHAEL BRONNER, Plant Nursery Owner 252

5 ED WINGFIELD, Colorado Black Chamber 255

6 DYERS, Renewable Energy Consultant 257

7 ROSEMARY LYTLE, NAACP 260

8 MAYA WHEELER, Black Women/Political Action 264

9 RUE MAPP, Outdoor Afro 266

10 ROBERT BOWEN, Writer for Green Energy 271

11 MICHAEL HOLTZ, Colorado Resident 276

12 JEFF DAYETT, Union of Concerned Scientists 281

13 NANCY STALKER, Denver Audubon 287

14 TOM HUNT, Clean Energy Collective 292

15 KAREN GADOS, Sunshare 297

16 ALICIA MIERS, Alliance of Nurses/Healthy Env 301

17 CARL HANSEL, Colorado Resident 304

18 LAUREN POOLE, Energy Efficiency Business Coal.306

19 YANA KUCHER, Colorado Resident 308

20 KAY PARKER, Colorado Resident 309

21 KAI Abelkis, Colorado Resident 312

22 ROBERT PARKER, Colorado Resident 314

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION B (continued)

4 MARSHA ELDRIDGE, Colorado Resident 318

5 SAMANTHA AKAWEI, Green For All 320

6 CATHERINE COX BLAIR, Natural Resource Defense 324

7 Council

8 SESSION C

9 CHARLOTTE BROMLEY, Colorado Resident 335

10 SARAH BROMLEY, Colorado Resident 339

11 ROBERTA MOONEY, 350 Colorado 341

12 MICAH PARKIN, 350 Colorado 347

13 JENNY DOUGLASS, Colorado Resident 352

14 PETER BLAIR, Colorado Resident 352

15 ANYA VANECEK, Colorado Resident 357

16 ANNELI BERUBE, Colorado Resident 361

17 JAYEESHA DUTTA, Gulf Restoration 363

18 SCOTT HATFIELD, Colorado Resident 369

19 DON PARCHER, Colorado Resident 372

20 ELISEBETH COHEN, Colorado Resident 376

21

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION C (continued)

4 JENNY NOONAN, EPA STAFF 378

5 SAM MASIAS, Colorado Resident 382

6 MICHAEL SAUL, Center for Biological Diversity 386

7 KIRK MILLS, Colorado Resident 391

8 KARL FORD, Colorado Resident 394

9 PETER SATOE, Ecojustice Ministries 398

10 KIM STEPHENS, Environmental Colorado 402

11 KELLY DAVIS, Environmental Attorney 404

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. SUTIN: Good morning, everyone. 

3 Welcome, I think we're going to get started.

4 My name is Elayana Sutin and I am the 

5 chair -- one of the chairs of the public hearings 

6 that we're having today. Thank you for coming.

7 On the panel with me is Denise 

8 Mulholland. She's from our Office of Atmospheric 

9 Programs in Washington. And then Kyle Olson who 

10 is from our Air Program here in Region 8. 

11 We are here today to listen to your 

12 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

13 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

14 of these proposed rules on June 2, 2014.

15 Power plants are the largest source of 

16 carbon pollution in the United States, accounting 

17 for roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse 

18 gas emissions.

19 The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 

20 power plan for existing power plants. This 

21 proposal consists of two main parts, state22 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

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1 power plants and guidelines to help states 

2 develop their plans for meeting those goals.

3 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

4 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

5 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

6 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

7 their goals by 2030.

8 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

9 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

10 and reconstructed power plants. This rule will 

11 set emission limits for two groups of power 

12 plants, those that make physical or operational 

13 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

14 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

15 that replace components to such an extent that 

16 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

17 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

18 facility. 

19 If you would like more detail on either 

20 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

21 available near the registration desk.

22 Today's hearing is one of four public 

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1 hearings across the country this week on the two 

2 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

3 in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 

4 you for taking time out of your day today to join 

5 us and share your comments.

6 We have a lot of people signed up to 

7 speak today and we want to hear from all of them. 

8 So before we get started I would like to go 

9 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

10 that will help make today's hearing run smoothly.

11 First, please be sure you have checked in 

12 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

13 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

14 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

15 you're here, please step out to the registration 

16 desk and let the EPA staff there know that you've 

17 arrived. 

18 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

19 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

20 or Room B. This is Room B. Are you in the right 

21 room? If not, this is a good time to switch.

22 If you are not speaking this morning and 

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1 the room is getting crowded, we have two 

2 additional rooms set up where you can watch the 

3 hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 

4 desk will direct you to one of those rooms.

5 All right. Here's how today's hearing 

6 will work. I will call speakers up in pairs, 

7 when your name is called, please come to the 

8 podium at the front of the room. When I call on 

9 you to speak, please state your name, and spell 

10 it for the court reporter.

11 Your comments will be transcribed and 

12 included in the record of comments on the 

13 proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 

14 minutes to give comments. We have a light to 

15 help you know how much time you have left to 

16 speak. It's right here. When the light turns 

17 from green to yellow, that means you have one 

18 minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 

19 signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 

20 flash red and beep when you have spoken for five 

21 minutes and it's time to stop. 

22 When you are finished speaking, please 

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1 remain at the podium until the person next to you 

2 has completed his or her testimony. 

3 We are here to listen to you today. 

4 However a panel member may ask you to clarify

5 your comments. 

6 I will then call upon the next pair of 

7 speakers and so on. 

8 If you have brought a written copy of 

9 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

10 the registration desk or you can leave it here at 

11 the front table with us.

12 Because of the large number of people who 

13 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

14 everyone, we are going to have to strictly 

15 enforce this five-minute limit.

16 If you have additional comments you would 

17 like to make, you can submit them in writing.

18 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

19 much consideration to comments we receive in 

20 writing as we do to the comments we receive at

21 public hearings like this one. 

22 So if you have more than you would like 

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1 to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 

2 reviewed. 

3 There is still plenty of time to get 

4 written comments in and there are comment cards 

5 available at the registration desk. Comments 

6 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

7 put any written comments submitted today into the 

8 official docket for the proposed rule. 

9 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

10 other ways are available at the materials table 

11 near the registration desk.

12 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

13 tonight. We will take short breaks throughout 

14 the day as needed. If you have questions during 

15 the day, please see the staff at the registration 

16 desk in the room behind you and someone will try 

17 and help you. 

18 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

19 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

20 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

21 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

22 all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 

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1 everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly, 

2 even applause can slow things down and we want to 

3 hear from everyone who is signed up to speak. In 

4 the spirit of good manners and good democracy, we 

5 ask that everyone be respectful. 

6 We are here to listen to each other even 

7 those we disagree with.

8 Thank you, again, for taking the time 

9 today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 

10 rule. We'll get started. Thanks.

11 So, our acting ARA wants to give some 

12 introductory remarks and we're just going to wait 

13 a minute for her to come and then we'll get 

14 started.

15 (Pause.) 

16 MS. SUTIN: Okay. I would like to 

17 introduce Cally Vidadich. She has a few remarks 

18 for everyone before we get started.

19 MS. VIDADICH: Good morning, my name is 

20 Cally Vidadich. I'm the acting assistant 

21 regional administrator here in Region 8 and I'm 

22 here to welcome you to the public hearing on the 

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1 Clean Power Plan Proposal. 

2 Before we put pen to paper on our clean 

3 power plan proposal we benefitted from 

4 unprecedented outreach. We held 11 public 

5 listening sessions nationwide including one here 

6 in Denver. We heard from thousands of people 

7 through phone calls, e-mails, meetings and more.

8 What we heard helped shape the guiding 

9 principals of our proposal. We heard that 

10 flexibility is key. So we maximized choices 

11 states could make for themselves. We heard that 

12 states could cut pollution costs effectively by 

13 looking at the energy system as a whole, so we 

14 built that in. 

15 We heard that the power sector is 

16 interconnected and not bound by state lines. So 

17 we allowed states to work together or go it 

18 alone; whatever works best for them.

19 The public comment period is incredibly 

20 valuable to us. Since June 2nd we've been laser 

21 focused on our second phase of this engagement. 

22 We've met with 60 different groups in just the 

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1 first 25 days after our proposal. We've received 

2 more than 300,000 comments so far and expect many 

3 more.

4 We want no stone unturned and no good 

5 idea off the table. That's why we're so excited 

6 to kick off this public hearings across the 

7 country. The are four of them this week, one 

8 here in Denver, the other two in Washington, 

9 Atlanta, and Pittsburgh. 

10 We expect great feedback at these 

11 sessions. They're critical to an opportunity for 

12 people to speak to their government directly. 

13 But let me also make clear any comment we receive 

14 by October 16th, no matter how we get it will be 

15 equally accepted and analyzed.

16 There are no special comments or special 

17 groups. We look at everything carefully and EPA 

18 does the work to shape that into a rule we can 

19 all be proud of.

20 We know the purpose of this rule couldn't 

21 be more important. That's why we're putting so 

22 much importance on the process and comments we're 

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1 getting. They are going to help us get this rule 

2 right. 

3 So I thank you all for your attention 

4 today, for the comments for those of you that are 

5 going to be providing comments. And for those of 

6 you that are listening here today, hopefully it's 

7 a great educational opportunity for you.

8 Have a great day.

9 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Cally.

10 SESSION A

11 MS. SUTIN: All right. I'd like to call 

12 the first two speakers, John Atkerson and 

13 Margaret Rogers. 

14 And one quick note for the speakers. If 

15 you could be careful of the microphones on the 

16 podium. Those are for the court reporter, and if 

17 you touch them it's difficult for the court 

18 reporter to hear. Thank you. 

19 Mr. Atkerson, you can go first.

20 MR. ATKERSON: Thank you. My name is 

21 John Atkerson. I represent Nebraska Wildlife 

22 Federation out of Lincoln, Nebraska.

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1 I'm here to speak for many Nebraskans who 

2 are very concerned about the climate consequences 

3 of global warming. A couple of them sent letters 

4 with me for you. Nebraska Interfaith Power and 

5 Light which is very active in the faith community 

6 in Nebraska, writes that "Climate change is the 

7 most pressing moral issue of our time." And on, 

8 and I'll be glad to leave you their letter. 

9 Guardians of the Good Life is a very 

10 grassroots group that is concerned about 

11 preserving the good life in Nebraska which means 

12 that they're very concerned about everything from 

13 the Keystone Xcel pipeline coming through the 

14 state and their destructive manner, and they say 

15 they support strong, robust rules to reign in 

16 greenhouse gas pollution and require those folks 

17 in that business to do the business in a 

18 responsible manner.

19 Cleaning up electricity generation and 

20 electrifying to the maximum degree, the transport 

21 sector, are important steps towards addressing 

22 the problem of the climate consequences of global 

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1 warming. 

2 We recognize that the proposed rules are 

3 a first attempt to address the key issue of the 

4 greenhouse gas pollution of power plants and we 

5 support that. But we also urge you to act more 

6 boldly, more aggressively, and to insist on much 

7 bigger reductions in greenhouse gas pollution.

8 Instead of tailoring the rules to favor 

9 natural gas as a fuel, favor the cheapest power 

10 available, at least in Nebraska and that cheapest 

11 power is wind power, and help build the 

12 transmission that will take that power across the 

13 country wherever it's needed.

14 Instead of favoring nuclear power, 

15 strongly promote energy efficiency and all manner 

16 of demand side management. Most importantly work 

17 with the RTOs and other regional organizations to 

18 make and implement a practical plan to transition 

19 to a 90 percent clean energy electric system. 

20 Encourage energy storage as Ontario has 

21 just done with a very good 34 megawatt storage 

22 project that's quite diverse. And I think we can 

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1 learn quite a bit from.

2 It is urgent that we act rapidly rather 

3 than just temper the pace of greenhouse gas 

4 pollution, it is past time to set the date to 

5 eliminate the intentional production of 

6 greenhouse gases. Because the extremely extreme 

7 weather that destroys natural habitat for 

8 wildlife, destroys human houses as we saw with 

9 super storm Sandy and other events. The new 

10 longer, more intense wildfire seasons destroy 

11 entire neighborhoods in the west and leave us 

12 with trail cam images of animals fleeing smoke 

13 and fire in absolute terror.

14 We are all diminished when a stand of 

15 aspens that has persevered for thousands of years 

16 on the pine ridge is incinerated and its 

17 resilient root system is baked into oblivion as 

18 happened in 2012. 

19 Fishing trout streams is an iconic 

20 American pass time that we will lose by mid 

21 century in much of Nebraska because streams will 

22 probably just be too hot for the trout. 

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1 Already some of the migrating cranes that 

2 Nebraska is famous for are threatened at the 

3 southern end of their migratory path because the 

4 water is too hard -- too hot -- just too hot for 

5 their foot to flourish. 

6 Wildlife is threatened as is detailed in 

7 the recent risky business analysis the climate 

8 consequences of global warming also threaten our 

9 economy. No one and no one thing is immune from 

10 this threat.

11 As you change these proposed rules, pleas 

12 let this be your guide. It is past time to set 

13 the date to eliminate the intentional production 

14 of greenhouse gas pollution. 

15 Thank you. 

16 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Atkerson.

17 Ms. Rogers?

18 MS. ROGERS: Thank you, and good morning. 

19 My name is Margaret Rogers and I'm from Boulder, 

20 Colorado.

21 During the day my job is to educate 

22 people on making their homes more energy 

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1 efficient. In the evenings and weekends, my 

2 avocation is organic gardener and backyard 

3 beekeeper. So I hope to bring you two 

4 perspectives on things that are going on.

5 So in my organic gardening group, we had 

6 a short burst of elation when we hear that the 

7 USDA had raised us to the next warmer zone 

8 because that meant we could grow things that we 

9 had never grown things -- had never grown before. 

10 Unfortunately, that was tempered a couple of 

11 weeks later when we found out that the Japanese 

12 Beetles had arrived and we never had Japanese 

13 Beetles before. And unfortunately not only are 

14 they eating our roses, but our raspberries and 

15 other plants as well.

16 Of course, along with them has come the 

17 Emerald Ash Borer, an insect that will destroy 

18 millions of trees in Colorado and most Colorado 

19 is the plains, the high plains. And so we don't 

20 have a lot of canopy. We've already had an 

21 attack on our pines with the pine beetle and was 

22 happy -- it just not getting as cold as it used 

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1 to in order to kill these insects so that's kind 

2 of one piece.

3 The next thing that I would talk with you 

4 about is there will be people who don't believe 

5 that climate disruption is human caused. But I 

6 think that what we can do is take a leap of 

7 faith, the environmental leap of faith and say, 

8 it doesn't really matter if it's human caused or 

9 not. The fact is, if we are pumping particulates 

10 and toxic chemicals into the air, then that's 

11 probably not good for the people or for the 

12 planet.

13 With that in mind, from my day job I 

14 bring to you the fact that thousands of Colorado 

15 homeowners are taking steps now to reduce the 

16 amount of energy that they're using. So that's 

17 the news on the bright side.

18 And so along with that, what I'm here to 

19 tell you is, you're not alone, we are with you. 

20 Again, as John just said, be bold, we'll pledge 

21 to do our part and we need your help.

22 MS. SUTIN: Thank you very much.

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1 You can both be seated. 

2 Next if I have can have Brad Lewis and 

3 Vivian Weinstein. Is Ms. Weinstein not here? 

4 Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Lewis. Vivian Weinstein, 

5 yes.

6 Ms. Weinstein, you don't need to stand 

7 until it's your turn to speak if you want to sit 

8 in the chair. Thanks.

9 Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Lewis.

10 MR. LEWIS: Good morning. My name is 

11 Bradley Charles Lewis. I'm President of 

12 Westmoreland Energy Services and I'm President of 

13 Friends of Coal West. I'm a registered 

14 professional mining engineer. 

15 My comments today are presented on behalf 

16 of Friends of Coal West as well as my employer 

17 Westmoreland Coal Company. Westmoreland is a top 

18 ten coal company. The oldest coal company in 

19 America. We've been mining coal since 1854, 

20 which is before the Civil War. 

21 I'm proud to be a coal miner. I'm proud 

22 of the contributions the coal mining industry has 

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1 made to America's greatness and I'm proud to be 

2 an American. 

3 I'm here today to respectfully request 

4 EPA to withdraw the clean power plan. 

5 My top ten reasons are: Number one, a 

6 375-page document is not the answer. What we 

7 need is a laser-focused plan that can be 

8 logically explained within 50 pages.

9 Number nine, decimating the American 

10 economy while only reducing less than 1 percent 

11 of the global carbon pollutants over 20 years 

12 makes no sense.

13 Number eight, this plan is nothing more 

14 than a symbolic gesture of reducing carbon by the 

15 U.S. and to expect the rest of the world to 

16 follow suit is absolutely delusional. I can 

17 assure this from my first-hand experience in 

18 working the past 24 years in the international 

19 market 

20 Number seven, the plan gambles our future 

21 on renewables that have repeatedly failed 

22 throughout the world because they are 

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1 uneconomical and unreliable. If renewables were 

2 the right solution for the future, we would not 

3 need political advocates, subsidies or regulatory 

4 --

5 Number six, Americans use more energy per 

6 capital and have enjoyed the lowest cost energy 

7 of anybody in the world. Only coal and gas-fired 

8 power plants have the proven track record of 

9 providing large-scale reliable electricity for 

10 decades.

11 Number five, energy is the industry that 

12 powers all other industries. The plan callously 

13 disregards the impact of increased energy costs 

14 that have a domino impact on every step in the 

15 supply chain. That results in increased costs of 

16 our goods and services, reduce competitiveness 

17 and job losses. Americans need to get back to 

18 work and stay working. 

19 Number four, the lion's share of the cost 

20 to generate electricity is the fuel costs. 

21 Historically coal price annual increases have 

22 been modest. Conversely gas prices have 

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1 fluctuated wildly over the past 40 years.

2 Number three, the U.S. utility industry 

3 has made significant progress over the past 40 

4 years in substantially reducing total emissions, 

5 but at the same significantly increasing coal 

6 use. 

7 Number two, a central governmental energy 

8 plan has never worked anywhere in the world. The 

9 plan handcuffs the free market's ability to use 

10 American energy to solve the problem.

11 And number one, all of the above is not 

12 what Americans want or need. I do not want two 

13 cups and string, or a dial phone, a landline with 

14 20 speed dial buttons and a smart phone which is 

15 all the above. I want the cheapest, most 

16 reliable smart phone with outstanding features. 

17 I also want the smart phone equivalent in 

18 electricity and that is increasingly cleaner, 

19 coal-fired electricity.

20 Coal is energy dense and our most 

21 abundant global energy resource. Coal-fired 

22 electricity has energized hospitals, water 

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1 filtration plants, food processing plants, 

2 factories, urbanization, education, and the 

3 information age. I advocate for continuing the 

4 U.S. trend of the past 40 years of continuously 

5 reducing emissions of coal-fired plants by 

6 allowing the markets to aggressively develop and 

7 implement the requisite technologies.

8 Please step back from all the statistics 

9 and tech jargon and ask yourself, is my life 

10 better today than what it was when I entered this 

11 world? If the answer is yes, thank a coal miner. 

12 Thank you very much and God bless 

13 America. 

14 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Lewis.

15 Ms. Winestein?

16 MS. WINESTEIN: My name is Vivian 

17 Winestein. I' not paid to be here. I'm just a 

18 member of the community. I'm kind of new in 

19 Colorado, was living in Maryland and Texas prior 

20 to coming here. I'm a retired nurse and a 

21 grandmother, a mother first and a grandmother. 

22 And I'm a metal worker too, for those that --

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1 when I was a little younger and stronger, okay. 

2 I could weld an extra quality weld.

3 As someone said before, it does matter 

4 whether you -- it's not like a religion, you 

5 believe in climate change or not. We know carbon 

6 is getting into the air and it's causing some 

7 problems, lots of problems for lots of people. 

8 And if we improve the situation, whether 

9 you believe in climate change or not, it will 

10 help both people, both sides of the people --

11 both groups of people, and people around the 

12 world. 

13 So I'm going to just mention some 

14 personal experiences that I've had and one -- and 

15 I'm not used to doing this five-minute thing 

16 because I usually talk a lot longer. But, 

17 anyway, I'm a very talkative person. I'm a 

18 little scared.

19 Anyway, I have personal experience with 

20 both Sandy and Hurricane Katrina. And it was 

21 really a shock. Okay. 

22 And this seems like a little thing, but 

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1 just multiply it to bigger. Yes, we could hardly 

2 understand thousands of people being washed away 

3 to sea. That sort of thing. It's hard to 

4 comprehend that, okay. But we can comprehend --

5 I went down, there was thousands of people about 

6 four days after Katrina hit, that they moved 

7 people to San Antonio and I had been living there 

8 for about seven years. And as a nurse, and I do 

9 like to write, I wanted to go down and speak to 

10 these people and I put a button on my -- a paper 

11 button that said, "world reporter" and I got 

12 through the gate and there were just buses, and 

13 buses, and buses of people coming from those 

14 terrible places where people were, you know, 

15 trying to get out of, you know, from New Orleans. 

16 And I said -- and they were all like in a daze. 

17 People were like in the sun and like total daze, 

18 they have lost relatives. It was just 

19 unbelievable.

20 I sat down next to one person, a lady 

21 about maybe the same age as me, 29, and I said, 

22 you know, we talked and I said, tell, me your 

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1 name, what happened to you; do you mind if I ask 

2 you. And she said, no, not at all. And she 

3 said, I just don't know where my family is, I 

4 don't know where anybody is. I was in the 

5 hospital, and the next thing -- I had a big 

6 operation, and I don't remember the operation, 

7 because I don't think she told me. But anyway, 

8 she was plucked off the roof by a helicopter, a 

9 lady my age. And the next thing she knows, she's 

10 on this hours' long bus ride, because it's quite 

11 a long bus ride from New Orleans to San Antonio, 

12 and there she was sitting on a cot. 

13 And I noticed the front of her dress was 

14 wet. And it concerned me as a nurse. I called 

15 over one of the Red Cross nurses, and I asked her 

16 if she would mind -- the lady if she would mind 

17 of we checked her surgical area. We went into a 

18 little dark bathroom, that's all there was, and 

19 she had a surgical, it was from one side to the 

20 other, okay. Just big open surgery. This is 

21 about four days or so past surgery, okay. So it 

22 wasn't bleeding, but it was draining like 

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1 suisanguineous we call drainage. And the wound 

2 was covered, not with bandages, not with steri3 strips, but little Bandaids, little Bandaids, off 

4 the roof, rode on a bus, traveled hours and hours 

5 bouncing around on a bus, her -- the rest of her 

6 life at this moment was real infection, and it 

7 was a serious risk. 

8 Okay. So we got her on one of the 

9 ambulances and into a hospital where she was 

10 taken care of. One person our of many, many, 

11 many people you saw some of this.

12 Another person, he was lucky. He was a 

13 man, you know, maybe in his 30s, a big tall guy. 

14 I remember because he walked fast and I couldn't 

15 keep up with him, and I had double canes at that 

16 time, not a walker. And his parents were with 

17 him, so that was really unusual, both of them in 

18 a wheelchair. He kind of took care of them. He 

19 seemed a little bit mentally -- a little bit --

20 you know, a little slower, a little different 

21 than the rest of us. And when he talked to me, I 

22 noticed something that worried me, and I asked 

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1 him, are you hearing voices. And he said, yes. 

2 And he talked about them for a minute. And I 

3 said, you know, I think they're setting up a 

4 little medical clinic down below and I'll help 

5 you over there. Would you mind -- would you like 

6 to go down there? Let's see if we can get some 

7 medicine. You haven't had medicine in five days. 

8 Another problem. 

9 All these people who are sick, no 

10 medicine, who thought about the fact that -- that 

11 the people would be without medicine. So he was 

12 hallucinating. Okay. So we went down there and, 

13 you know, and they actually -- they gathered a 

14 whole bunch of people from the nearby hospital to 

15 deal with that problem. And that's the problems

16 you wouldn't even think about, the people 

17 wouldn't have their medicine, their heart 

18 medicine, medicine to stop the schizophrenic 

19 symptoms and so forth. 

20 So -- and my mother was just home from 

21 the hospital. She lived in New York, I'm from 

22 New York originally, as you can hear from my 

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1 voice.

2 MS. SUTIN: Ms. Winestein, I need you to 

3 wrap up.

4 MS. WINESTEIN: Okay. Okay. So I'm just 

5 going to say that people on the 15th floor in New 

6 York City, below 30th Street had no electricity, 

7 mother, two baby children, no water, dirty 

8 diapers, no food, how can she run up and down 

9 with two little babies to get things from the 

10 street? I mean, these are little -- just how you 

11 live from day-to-day when these catastrophic 

12 events occur. Okay. And how they impact your 

13 life. 

14 So, anyway, one other thing I just want 

15 to say is that I am concerned about jobs and 

16 about people losing their jobs. And it really is 

17 important that if we make these changes that we 

18 have jobs programs that help people to get decent 

19 paying jobs. And this is something our Congress 

20 has failed us terribly, okay. And it's not just 

21 the coal industry and other industries, but when 

22 we make these changes to improve the environment 

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1 and the living standard of people we also have to 

2 make sure that we don't leave people, you know, 

3 without jobs who have skills and knowledge.

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Winestein.

5 MS. WINESTEIN: Okay. That's it.

6 MS. SUTIN: I really need you to finish. 

7 We appreciate your comments.

8 MS. WINESTEIN: Okay. Thank you. I 

9 always talk too long. It's a family --

10 MS. SUTIN: Okay. If we can have Joshua 

11 Zif, and Dusty Rose. Did I pronounce it right? 

12 Is it Zie? Zie. I apologize. Go ahead, Mr. 

13 Zie. 

14 MR. ZIE: Thank you for giving the 

15 opportunity to speak for a few minutes today. My 

16 name is Joshua Zie and I'm testifying as counsel 

17 for the Electric Reliability Coordinating 

18 Council.

19 The ERCC is a broad-based coalition of 

20 energy companies. We work to ensure that 

21 consumers across the United States have access to 

22 reliable, affordable, and environmentally 

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1 responsible power.

2 We share the concern that climate change 

3 policy is complicated and we appreciate that it 

4 involves difficult choices and careful balancing 

5 of costs, risks, and benefits. And it also must 

6 take into account the international nature of 

7 carbon emissions. However, this attempt to 

8 establish a nationwide energy and electricity 

9 policy through section 111(d) of the Clean Air 

10 Act is not the proper way to engage in this 

11 policy debate.

12 Regardless of whether you support this 

13 proposal or not, it is a fact that this is an 

14 unprecedented use of this very small provision of 

15 the Clean Air Act. Three hundred words of the 

16 Clean Air Act converted to over 300 pages of 

17 proposed regulations and we are concerned that it 

18 threatens the reliability of our country's 

19 electricity supply and will result in 

20 significantly higher energy costs and all of this 

21 without the appreciable benefits that have been

22 promised to supporters of the rule.

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1 We believe that EPA should not finalize 

2 the proposal as written and should provide 

3 additional time for comments and analysis to be 

4 prepared. This is a serious issue because when 

5 electricity is unreliable, vulnerable populations 

6 can face life threatening conditions as a result 

7 of heat or coal and the basic functioning of our 

8 economy is in peril. And we believe that this 

9 proposal will make our electricity supply less 

10 reliable. 

11 The building blocks described in the 

12 proposal require that states seeking EPA approval 

13 reconfigure both how electricity is generated and 

14 how it is dispatched. And at the end of this 

15 process the EPA proposal proposes that almost a 

16 third of the existing coal-fired generation will 

17 be retired between 2020 and 2022 a third of 

18 existing coal-fired generation will be gone. 

19 These plants currently provide 

20 electricity that sustains our economy and the 

21 health and well-being of our citizens. When 

22 these plants are shuttered, our electricity 

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1 supply will be entirely dependent upon EPA's 

2 predictions about energy efficiency and the 

3 growth of costly and currently underdeveloped 

4 alternative energies. Our fear is that without 

5 current generating facilities, all it will take 

6 is another polar vortex or heat wave to expose 

7 vulnerabilities and subject businesses and 

8 citizens to energy shortages and price shocks.

9 At its base we're concerned because EPA 

10 is not in a position fundamentally to craft 

11 reliability policies and EPA has never been 

12 tasked with that authority by Congress. One FERC 

13 commissioner recently stated that he was provided 

14 zero chance to review the clean power plan, that 

15 EPA's reliability assessments are always wrong, 

16 and that EPA has underestimated the number of 

17 retirements from the very beginning. The fact 

18 that effective reliability policies currently 

19 result from careful coordination between FERC, 

20 state and regional regulators, and reliability 

21 organizations other stakeholders is important. 

22 Because under this proposal EPA would be given 

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1 the power to trump all of their decisions by 

2 approving or disapproving state implementation 

3 plans.

4 Finally, we are also concerned because 

5 this proposal will increase electricity prices 

6 for households and businesses. In the proposal 

7 EPA admits that electricity prices will increase 

8 between 6 and 7 percent nationally by 2020 as a 

9 result of this rule, and some areas facing 

10 increases in double digits. These increases, 

11 even for short terms are uniquely harmful to 

12 vulnerable populations. The poor and the elderly 

13 need the money that goes to electricity prices 

14 and higher monthly bills, even offset over a long 

15 term does not solve the situation where they have 

16 to choose between basic necessities and paying 

17 monthly bills. 

18 We do not think that camouflaging these 

19 increases by promising that the government will 

20 save them money by getting them to use less 

21 electricity is comfort for these populations. 

22 Knowing that the government is trying to make you 

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1 use less electricity will do nothing to help 

2 those on fixed incomes who have to run their air 

3 conditioning during a heat wave, or their heat 

4 during a cold snap. In those circumstances, a 

5 promise of greater efficiency, or lower cost over 

6 the next decade does not pay the bill at the end 

7 of the month. 

8 At its core carbon emissions are a global 

9 issue and we've seen U.S. carbon emissions stable 

10 and now decline over the last decade. By 

11 contrast Chinese emissions have increased over 

12 170 percent, Indian emissions have increased over 

13 90 percent, and they've announced plans to build 

14 more coal plants. 

15 These facts indicate that climate policy 

16 requires a comprehensive approach incorporated, 

17 coordinated legislation, international diplomacy 

18 and a thorough deliberative process. We do not 

19 think this proposal encompasses those strengths.

20 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Zie. 

21 Mr. Rose?

22 MR. ROSE: Good morning, my name is Dusty 

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1 Rose. I live in Rangely, Colorado and I'm a 

2 member of the Local Union 1984, work for Blue

3 Mountain Energy, Deserado Mine. I'm here 

4 representing the union at District 22 in Price, 

5 Utah. 

6 Like many of the miners who have 

7 testified before the EPA, the clean power plan 

8 you are proposing. I grew up in a small 

9 community in Colorado. However, before my 

10 miner's career began I enlisted into the Army in 

11 1993. After basic training, I was deployed 

12 Haiti. I served in the Army for three years as a 

13 cargo specialist. In that time I served with men 

14 from all across this nation. 

15 As most -- I'm nervous, sorry.

16 MS. SUTIN: That's okay, take your time.

17 MR. ROSE: As most who have served, I 

18 feel a unique bond with others who have been 

19 drafted or joined the military. Military service 

20 teaches you many things including a sense of 

21 commitment to your country and brotherhood with 

22 those who serve with you.

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1 My service to our country has helped me 

2 define who I am and I'm proud of my service to 

3 this nation.

4 In 2002 I began my career at Deserado 

5 Mine. I built a life for my family, educated my 

6 children and have been a hard working member of 

7 society. And like with my military service, I 

8 was surrounded by a very unique group of people. 

9 Coal miners rely on each other. I was surrounded 

10 by a very unique group -- oops sorry -- they 

11 looked out for one another and worked that we do 

12 not create -- and the work that we do creates a 

13 brotherhood of its own. 

14 There are a few occupations in this world 

15 that require each person to rely so heavily on 

16 the brothers and sisters they work with, like 

17 with my military service, I'm proud to be among 

18 them.

19 I have worked hard to make a living in 

20 the mines and those efforts have helped me grow 

21 this -- has helped this nation grow into a world 

22 superpower. Coal has powered the industrial 

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1 base, built suitable manufacturing and made sure 

2 that when each of you flips a switch the light 

3 turn on.

4 I have made a good living in the mines 

5 and through the years my service earned a pension 

6 and health care for my retirement. With the 

7 implementation of this rule, you are threatening 

8 all that I have worked for. You will pay my 

9 pension -- you will put my pension plan at risk 

10 and eliminate my health care all at the same 

11 time. The EPA plan to marginalize the coal 

12 industry in this country will have no positive 

13 impacts on the global problems you are targeting, 

14 but it will destroy all that I and my fellow 

15 miners have worked for. 

16 Let me assure you as one that has served 

17 this nation on the battlefield and in the coal 

18 mine our struggles against this rule is only the 

19 beginning. 

20 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Rose.

21 You can both be seated. Next if I can 

22 have David Ellenberger and Lawrence Oliver.

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1 Go ahead, Mr. Ellenberger.

2 MR. ELLENBERGER: Thank you. My name is 

3 David Ellenberger. I'm a regional outreach case 

4 manager with the National Wildlife Federation at 

5 the Rocky Mountain Regional Center in Boulder, 

6 Colorado. For over 75 years we've been 

7 advocating for solutions to the nations largest 

8 conservation challenges, and for the past decade 

9 NWF with its four million members and supporters 

10 and 47 state affiliates has been on the 

11 frontlines of documenting the profound impact of 

12 climate change on our natural resources and the 

13 people and the wildlife that depend on them. 

14 We've been on the cusp -- climate prices 

15 being stalwart advocates for a future that 

16 embraces clean energy to power our homes and cars 

17 and where wildlife and our lands are protected 

18 from carbon intensive energy sources.

19 To be successful in addressing the 

20 climate prices, however, we have a long road 

21 ahead.

22 We believe EPA can achieve greater 

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1 reductions. EPA's proposed targets can and 

2 should be strengthened. Pollution reductions 

3 could be greater at a reasonable cost. Our 

4 initial analysis indicates emissions can be 

5 reduced beyond those projected by the EPA. The 

6 goal of this plan should be to reduce emissions 

7 by 35 to 40 percent below 2005 emission levels by 

8 2020.

9 Primarily the formula used by EPA to 

10 establish the emission target standard in each 

11 state needs to be adjusted to reflect the fact 

12 that additional available clean energy -- clean 

13 renewable energy and energy efficiency resources 

14 would replace generation from the dirtiest 

15 possible fuel sources and at a faster pace 

16 yielding greater emissions reductions than EPA 

17 assumed.

18 In energy efficiency the EPA has rightly 

19 recognized that energy efficiency is the most 

20 cost-effective resource to reduce emissions and 

21 that many successful state programs adequately 

22 demonstrate the potential for efficiency across 

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1 the country.

2 However, more cost-effective efficiency 

3 is available more quickly and at a lower cost 

4 than EPA assumed in this proposal. 

5 State programs have demonstrated that the 

6 ability to ramp up more quickly in EPA's proposal 

7 would require and to use a wider variety of 

8 effective energy efficiency tools than EPA 

9 considered.

10 On renewables, clean renewable energy has 

11 been growing at an astonishing rate. In 2012 

12 when energy and solar were two of the fastest 

13 growing electric generation technologies in the 

14 U.S. cumulative installed wind energy capacity 

15 increased by nearly 28 percent and cumulative 

16 installed solar capacity grew by more than 83 

17 percent from the previous year. EPA rightly 

18 includes these resources in setting state 

19 targets, but the availability and quality of 

20 opportunities assumed is too low. By setting 

21 assumptions about renewable energy potential far 

22 too low, EPA left substantial achievable 

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1 reductions off the table. EPA should analyze

2 resource availability and costs on a state and 

3 regional basis rather than limiting the 

4 assessment of potential development to mandated 

5 renewables and state renewable portfolio 

6 standards. The agency should remove any 

7 artificial limits on renewable energy growth and 

8 use the annual renewable energy growth factor for 

9 each state that reflects the renewable potential 

10 for states and regions.

11 EPA also needs to adjust its analysis to 

12 include the full potential of a wider variety of 

13 renewable resources that are currently excluded 

14 from consideration such as distributed solar and 

15 offshore wind. 

16 And natural gas, in establishing each 

17 state's target EPA should fully account for 

18 planned and anticipated fossil fuel plant 

19 retirements and the current rate of change from 

20 full to lower emitting resources including 

21 natural gas. 

22 In other words, EPA must insure that its 

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1 approach to natural gas at a lower emitting 

2 source will drive emissions reductions that would 

3 not have already occurred. EPA should also be 

4 concerned about life cycle emissions from natural 

5 gas production and move forward with parallel 

6 additional regulations to ensure methane 

7 pollution does not erase the climate benefits of 

8 increased reliance on natural gas over coal.

9 The west has tremendous renewable energy

10 potential, vast quantities of onshore wind exist 

11 across the west, particularly in the plains where 

12 onshore wind potential is unmatched in the 

13 nation. The southwest has the nation's highest 

14 sun potential and must of the rest of the west is 

15 close behind. The west has some of the most 

16 aggressive state renewable energy portfolio 

17 standards in the country with Colorado out in 

18 front with its 30 percent requirement by 2020. 

19 This is in part because of the vast renewable 

20 energy potential in this region. And rather than 

21 using a formula that expects the states will do 

22 little to nothing in terms of developing 

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1 renewables further, EPA should factor in a 

2 greater potential for even greater renewable 

3 energy development in the west to develop targets 

4 that will achieve significantly greater 

5 reductions. 

6 Colorado can outpace the assumed growth 

7 in renewable energy generation the EPA relied on 

8 to set this state target. The EPA standard for 

9 Colorado should be strengthened to reflect this. 

10 Colorado can and should comply with the clean 

11 power plan through continue emphasis on wildlife 

12 friendly renewable energy and energy efficiency. 

13 Strong state plans and a burgeoning renewable 

14 energy industry in our state, Colorado has great 

15 potential to expand solar and wind, power across 

16 the state, and then back. Colorado is already 

17 ranked fourth in the nation for solar energy 

18 potential.

19 Thank you. 

20 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Ellenberger, do you mind 

21 spelling your last name for the court reporter?

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1 g-e-r.

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

3 Mr. Oliver, go ahead. 

4 MR. OLIVER: My name is Lawrence Oliver. 

5 I'm a coal miner employed at Peabody Western 

6 Coal, Kayenta mine in Arizona and a member of 

7 United Mine Workers of America, Local 1924. 

8 I've also served as an executive 

9 assistant to Dr. Joe Shirley, Jr., President of 

10 Navajo Nation for six and a half years from 2003 

11 to 2009.

12 My comments will be brief. I will keep 

13 them to the subject that I believe goes to the 

14 heart of crafting of this rule. That is, how can 

15 a rule that affects scores of workers become law 

16 without a vote in Congress with an agency that 

17 has adopted the policy never understanding the 

18 damage they do to real people and real families.

19 EPA has billed this hearing and the ones 

20 in other cities as a, quote, "opportunity for 

21 interested parties to present data, views or 

22 arguments, concerning the proposed action." 

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1 Unfortunately, what EPA is attempting to 

2 accomplish in these hearings is to avoid 

3 listening to the very people who will bear the 

4 brunt of this misguided policy. 

5 It is truly dishonest for EPA to avoid 

6 going to the coal fields to hold these hearings. 

7 But yet in the metropolitan areas this is the 

8 only place that even comes close to being in the 

9 coal fields. But even then the closest working 

10 coal mines are several counties away from here.

11 I have no doubt that this rule will be 

12 implemented by your agency at great personal and 

13 community expense to my family and thousands of 

14 other families who do not live anywhere close to 

15 where you have conducted hearings. 

16 I would like to add also that this rule 

17 the Navajo nation will suffer too because of the 

18 royalties from Kayenta mine and SRP plant in 

19 Page, Arizona provides the major part of the 

20 government's operating budget. It's no surprise 

21 to the people where I am from that the conclusion 

22 you have reached in the rule you will impose is 

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1 misguided. You have ignored the very people who 

2 are mostly severely impacted. Furthermore, this 

3 policy will threaten the health and welfare of 

4 the poor and elderly on limited income. They 

5 will be subjected to skyrocketing electric 

6 utility rates. 

7 The idea that you do not even afford 

8 members of communities that will be economically 

9 devastated by your actions, at the very least has 

10 the appearance of arrogance. It reinforces the 

11 belief that your determinations are made solely 

12 on the data and information you deem important 

13 regardless of what other information may be 

14 available elsewhere. 

15 I sincerely request that you not stop 

16 here, conduct more hearings where the people who 

17 will be most adversely impacted by this rule live 

18 and work. Come to Morgantown and Beckley, West 

19 Virginia, Pennsylvania, Henderson, Kentucky and 

20 Price, Utah. When you make life and death 

21 decisions for worker and families in the 

22 communities, you should have the courage to look 

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1 them in the eye. 

2 Yes, I did say life or death decisions, 

3 that is what is happening with this rule. And 

4 every one of us should treat it with that 

5 understanding. I hope that EPA considers better 

6 policy that recognizes the desperate need for 

7 low-cost electricity while leading to continuous 

8 emissions improvements.

9 Thank you. 

10 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Oliver.

11 Okay. If I can have Jennifer Filiault 

12 and Jeff Wadsworth. Ms. Filiault, if you can 

13 spell your name for the reporter?

14 MS. FILIAULT: Good morning. My name is 

15 Jen Filiault, F as in Frank, i-l-i-a-u-l-t.

16 I'm actually in from Boston to 

17 participate in the hearings this week. And I did 

18 not intend to speak. I'm here to coordinate 

19 groups of activists from around the country that 

20 are living in the front-line communities that are 

21 dealing directly with energy impacts. 

22 However, there was a spot available and I 

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1 saw an opportunity, so I figured I would take it. 

2 I'm here today to express support for the EPA 

3 taking action on regulating carbon and other 

4 greenhouse gas emissions.

5 The rule is a small step forward. 

6 However, I would urge the EPA to act aggressively 

7 both on carbon emissions and methane emissions 

8 from our energy sector, and also to look at the 

9 entire life cycle impacts that energy has on our 

10 communities around the country.

11 The activists that I am here with this 

12 week are from all over the U.S. We have some 

13 folks in from Kentucky and West Virginia that are 

14 living in communities dealing with mountain top 

15 removal coal mining. They are seeing the health 

16 impacts within their families and their 

17 communities that coal is having. I've had 

18 opportunities to travel to many of these 

19 communities and meet the amazing people that are 

20 working relentlessly to protect themselves and 

21 their future generations. 

22 I was in West Virginia right after the 

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1 chemical spill into their water supply in 

2 Charleston when 300,000 people were without fresh 

3 water for months and the water is still not 

4 repaired. And that chemical was spilled because 

5 of the coal industry. The coal industry uses the 

6 chemical to wash the coal. And there was 

7 negligence on behalf of the state and the also 

8 the industry and those 300,000 people, their 

9 families -- they were affected, their water 

10 supplies and they will never get the same quality 

11 of water back.

12 I'm also here with some folks from 

13 Wisconsin that are dealing with the impacts of 

14 frack sand mining. It's a lesser-known issue 

15 than mountain top removal, but it is detriment --

16 I mean, the effects in the communities are 

17 detrimental. Fracked sand is the sand that is 

18 taken from the bluffs and the hills and the 

19 driftless area of the Midwest. It is used to be 

20 shot into the ground with chemicals and fresh 

21 water to generate gas for fracking. And they are 

22 also in need of help from the EPA and other 

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1 regulators to ensure that their health is not 

2 being completely dismissed to allow industry to 

3 run rampant to extract the sand for fracking.

4 We also have activists in Montana and 

5 Wyoming that are dealing with coal mining out 

6 west and the health and water impacts that 

7 they're seeing out here, the transportation of 

8 coal to the west coast for export. They are 

9 bearing the brunt of the health impacts in their 

10 communities here so that we can send the coal 

11 elsewhere. 

12 And we also have activists from 

13 Pennsylvania and New York that are working to 

14 protect their communities from fracking. They 

15 are seeing huge impacts to their water, to their 

16 health, to their families, their children, their 

17 communities, fracking is destroying communities 

18 in the northeast and the methane emissions, the 

19 fugitive emissions from the wells, that needs to 

20 be taken into account as well because methane in 

21 terms of global warming emissions is a 

22 significantly more potent global warming gas. 

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1 And yet that's not addressed within EPA rule.

2 The entire country is dealing with the 

3 extreme weather impacts, as we heard a little bit 

4 earlier, and I heard about a lot yesterday. 

5 Actually even coming from Boston yesterday, my --

6 or Monday, my flight left right before a tornado 

7 touched down in the Boston area. We don't have 

8 tornados in Boston, that's not normal for us. 

9 And then I arrived here, about an hour before 

10 there was a tornado warning at the Denver 

11 airport. These extreme weather events are 

12 costing our country not only in terms of safety 

13 and health and quality of life, but in terms of 

14 our economy. We need to pay for these disasters 

15 to be cleaned up. 

16 We have a better way. We're smarter than 

17 that. We have the technology available to begin 

18 to move towards renewables and efficiency in a 

19 way that is not only technologically possible, 

20 but economically preferable in the short term of 

21 efficiency and in the long term. I hope to be 

22 alive for at least 60 more years. And if we're 

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1 talking about 2050, my lifetime hopefully expands 

2 beyond that. So we need to really start 

3 addressing those concerns today to start that 

4 transition. The EPA rule is a step in the right 

5 direction. It needs to be stronger, it needs 

6 address methane and we need to be looking at the 

7 life cycle impacts of our energy not only from 

8 the smoke stacks of our power plants, but from 

9 the communities that are dealing with the mining, 

10 the water impacts, the transportation of these 

11 fuels. 

12 So I guess I will wrap up there. I just 

13 -- I support the rule, I support the activists 

14 that are here to speak on behalf of their 

15 communities. We have a better way and we need to 

16 move in that direction. So, thank you.

17 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

18 Mr. Wodsworth.

19 MR. WODSWORTH: Good morning. My name is 

20 Jeff Wodsworth, I'm the CEO of Puter Valley REA, 

21 a non-profit electric cooperative, headquartered 

22 in Fort Collins, Colorado, just north of here.

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1 Thank you for giving me the opportunity 

2 to provide Puter Valley REA's initial thoughts on 

3 the EPA's proposed power plan.

4 We serve approximately 38,000 meters in 

5 Boulder, Larimer, and Well Counties. Our 

6 residential class of service makes up 85 percent 

7 of our consumer base. However, industrial 

8 customers which represents only 10 percent of the 

9 total number of consumers provides over 50 

10 percent of our revenues. These industrial 

11 consumers that I mention represent some of the 

12 largest employers in Northern Colorado. 

13 We are also member owners of Tri-State 

14 Generation Transmission Cooperative and purchase 

15 a significant portion of our power requirements 

16 from them. So some of our concerns expressed by 

17 Tri-State will also be concerns of Puter Valley 

18 REA. 

19 I would like stress what Puter Valley REA 

20 has done locally in generating renewable projects 

21 ranging from community solar farms to geothermal, 

22 to small hydro electric along with the robust 

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1 energy efficiency programs we have, all done at 

2 the local level with no federal or state mandates 

3 or regulations. 

4 As a cooperative all our costs, including 

5 complying with the regulations like the clean 

6 power plan are paid for by our consumers. This 

7 is an important point because we serve a wide 

8 array of consumers that will pay to comply with 

9 these rules which some have suggested will be in 

10 the billions of dollars. 

11 This means the burden of the costs of 

12 complying with these proposed rules will be on 

13 some of the largest employers in northern 

14 Colorado along with our small businesses and 

15 residential consumers.

16 We are in the process of analyzing the 

17 impacts of the proposal. We are working closely 

18 with Tri-state, the National Rural Electric 

19 Association, NRECA, and other trade groups to 

20 leverage our resources and get the best legal and 

21 technical analysis completed.

22 Our initial analysis has raised several 

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1 concerns that I hope to highlight today and 

2 address by working with the EPA, state agencies, 

3 and others in the industry. We are supportive of 

4 efforts to address air quality and the 

5 environment as mentioned previously and are 

6 looking at ways at the local and state level to 

7 do our part. We also believe any regulations 

8 that take into consideration what renewables have 

9 already been installed, regardless of the year, 

10 was completed from solar to wind to hydroelectric 

11 generation. 

12 To expand on hydroelectric generation 

13 these proposed rules are ignoring a huge source 

14 of emission-free electricity that is already in 

15 place, the federal hydropower system. Large 

16 hydropower should be considered by the federal 

17 government as emission-free generating resource 

18 that is not adequately -- that's not even 

19 incorporated into your proposed plan.

20 The limit on large hydropower is 

21 artificial and only in place to increase market 

22 share for other renewables. At the very least 

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1 tri-state and other beneficiaries, the federal 

2 hydro system should get credit for the generation 

3 under this plan.

4 Another concern relates to the 

5 environmental dispatching the proposed 

6 regulations used in calculating the final CO2 

7 reductions for each state. This was done by 

8 randomly increasing natural gas combined cycle 

9 capacity factors to 70 percent regardless of 

10 economics.

11 (Technical interruption.)

12 MR. WODSWORTH: Thank you.

13 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Take a break. 

14 We're waiting for other speakers to arrive. So 

15 feel free to take a bathroom break, stretch your 

16 legs, and we'll be back at 10:20.

17 (Brief recess taken at 10:01 a.m.)

18 (Record resumes at 10:20 a.m.)

19 MS. SUTIN: Okay. I think we're going to 

20 get started again. Before I call the next 

21 speakers, I just want to make a quick 

22 announcement. We found the driver's license for 

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1 -- we found a driver's license for Rosslyn Bower. 

2 So if you are in the room or you know Rosslyn, 

3 have her check in with the registration desk, we 

4 have her driver's license. 

5 Okay. If I can have Mike Kopp and Kent 

6 Singer. Mr. Kopp, you'll go first, and just a 

7 reminder, if you can spell your name for the 

8 record for the court reporter.

9 MR. KOPP: Be happy to.

10 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

11 MR. KOPP: So Mike Kopp, K-o-p-p.

12 MS. SUTIN: Go ahead. 

13 MR. KOPP: Good morning. My name is Mike 

14 Kopp, corporate affairs manager for Intermountain 

15 Rural Electric Association which is headquartered 

16 in Sedalia, Colorado. I'm here to testify on 

17 behalf of Sedalia, or IREA, rather. 

18 Sedalia is the center of our roughly 

19 5,000 square mile service territory across which 

20 we serve about 144,000 customers as a 

21 distribution cooperative. 

22 After significant discussion with other 

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1 Colorado utility professionals, we believe the 

2 proposed rule is fundamentally flawed and is 

3 unwritten and is unworkable. We make three 

4 observations concerning those flaws and they 

5 relate to the timing outlined in the rule, flaws 

6 within the building blocks themselves and the 

7 institutional and political realities that are 

8 attendant in Colorado with respect to 

9 implementation of the rule. 

10 First, with respect to the issue of 

11 timing, the EPA directs the states to achieve 

12 rather dramatic CO2 reductions as measured in 

13 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour and directs 

14 states to make the most dramatic reductions in 

15 the first three years of operation after the rule 

16 after the CIP that would be approved in 2017, the 

17 interim goal must be reached by 2020. 

18 Why? 

19 As the proposed rule is written, Colorado 

20 regulators are directed to ensure an interim 

21 reduction here in Colorado of 32.4 percent. But 

22 then the EPA allows for a period of ten years to 

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1 make the final reductions called for in the rule, 

2 which will bring the state to its eventual 

3 reduction goal of 35.4 percent. 

4 Even if the building blocks were 

5 suitable, and we take issue with them, even if 

6 they were suitable to create such reductions, why 

7 does the EPA frontload compliance in such a 

8 matter.

9 In the electric utility industry, 

10 utilities invest massive amounts of capital and 

11 infrastructure and it's based on the assumption 

12 that we'll get a return on the investment for 

13 those massive outlays of capital. 

14 Based on the assumption that our plant 

15 that we put into service is going to see its 

16 useful life, this rule assumes that there's 

17 incredible coincidence between the EPA's one18 size-fits-all timeline and the asset retirement 

19 schedule of the utilities across the country.

20 Electric utilities are mandated both by 

21 public utilities commissions and the stewardship 

22 demands placed upon them by the consumers on 

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1 their own systems to avoid stranding assets. 

2 Yet, if the building blocks do not work, and do 

3 not work moreover on the specified timeline, we 

4 will in fact have stranded assets. We would 

5 argue that this amounts to a form of regulatory 

6 taking. 

7 Secondly, we share the concerns of nearly 

8 every other utility professional we speak to 

9 about the opportunities that actually exist in 

10 implementing the building blocks. I don't have 

11 time to address challenges that we have with four 

12 of them, but I'll speak to just two. 

13 Concerning the first, we're yet to 

14 identify -- and this is rather striking -- we are 

15 yet to identify a single expert in the industry 

16 who believes a 6 percent heat rate improvement is 

17 achievable in Colorado's coal fleet. If coal 

18 steam operators could achieve this improvement in 

19 order to benefit their customers, and frankly 

20 their own financial margins, they would have 

21 already done so.

22 Building block number two is similarly 

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1 problematic. The EPA believe the NGCC plants can 

2 achieve capacity factors of 70 percent when they 

3 are typically designed to operate at much lower 

4 thresholds. In fact, when operating at higher 

5 levels they will wear out. Moreover they 

6 typically do not have air permits that allow 

7 operation at anything close to the 70 percent 

8 capacity. And we're doubtful that the natural 

9 gas storage transmission rights and pipeline 

10 capacity currently exists for operation at the 

11 level assumed by the proposed standard.

12 It is interesting the fact that many of 

13 the same groups that would be in favor of placing 

14 these kinds of local strictures on natural gas 

15 are also in favor of a rule that would require 

16 much more use of natural gas.

17 Third, and finally, there are real 

18 political and institutional realities that have 

19 to be taken into account here. State law needs 

20 to change, potentially the state constitution 

21 itself. The EPA simply cannot wave its hand at 

22 the states and hope that the rule will be 

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1 successful as they've done so. 

2 Thank you.

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Kopp.

4 Okay. Mr. Singer.

5 MR. SINGER: Good morning. Thank you. 

6 My name is Kent Singer, S-i-n-g-e-r. I'm the 

7 Executive Director of the Colorado Rural Electric 

8 Association. 

9 CREA is the statewide trade association 

10 for Colorado's 22 electric distribution coops and 

11 one generation and transmission association. And 

12 you've heard from a couple of our members this 

13 morning. Puter Valley REA, and just now 

14 Intermountain REA. 

15 Colorado's electric coops are non-profit, 

16 member-owned electric utilities that serve over 

17 70 percent of the land mass of Colorado but only 

18 about 20 percent of Colorado's electricity 

19 consumers. This means we serve primarily rural 

20 areas with an average consumer density of 8 

21 consumers per mile of line. 

22 Investor-owned utilities and municipal 

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1 utilities, by comparison have on average 30 to 40 

2 consumers per mile of line. 

3 The mission of Colorado's electric coops 

4 is to provide reliable and affordable service to 

5 rural Colorado which is a challenge given the low 

6 density of our systems and the extensive 

7 facilities that are required to serve all corners 

8 of the state. 

9 We look at the EPA's clean power plan 

10 from the perspective of how it will impact our 

11 ability to continue to provide reliable and 

12 affordable service to rural Colorado. 

13 We're concerned that the proposed rules 

14 do not recognize the unique challenges facing 

15 electric coops in providing affordable power to 

16 rural Colorado. The rules don't consider the 

17 fact that coops have far fewer consumers who will 

18 have to bear the costs required to meet the 

19 emission reductions required by the rules. 

20 The primary focus of the rule requiring 

21 coops to switch power generation from coal-fire 

22 generation to natural gas will require 

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1 significant investments in any of the new power 

2 plants or purchased power displacing lower-cost 

3 coal resources. 

4 Electric coops have a higher percentage 

5 of coal generation in their portfolio given the 

6 timing of power plant investments. When many of 

7 our plants were built in the mid-1980s to meet 

8 load growth, we were prohibited by federal law, 

9 the 1978 Fuel Use Act from using natural gas for 

10 electricity generation. Therefore we have large 

11 investments in coal-fired generation that may be 

12 stranded unless the rules are revised to give us 

13 more time to switch from coal to gas. 

14 Although natural gas today appears to be 

15 plentiful and the cheaper alternative for power 

16 generation, that may not always be the case given 

17 the desire of many companies to export liquefied 

18 natural gas from the United States to other 

19 countries.

20 Considering the historic volatility of 

21 natural gas prices, it seems likely that a 

22 reliance on natural gas will result in increased 

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1 costs for electricity generation in coming years. 

2 During last winter's polar vortex in the 

3 midwest and northeast parts of the country, 

4 older, coal-fired plants were critical in 

5 sustaining the grid and keeping the lights on 

6 when supply problems limited the availability of 

7 natural gas-fired plants. 

8 We are also concerned with the fact that 

9 the clean power plan creates a new authority in 

10 the EPA to essentially be involved in the utility 

11 resource plans of all utilities including 

12 electric coops. Electric coops are governed by 

13 their locally elected boards who are in a better 

14 position to understand the dynamics of their 

15 local power systems and the desire of their 

16 member owners than the EPA.

17 Colorado's electric coops support energy 

18 efficiency and we have worked with our member 

19 owners for many years to help them find ways to 

20 operate more efficiently and save money on their 

21 power bills. 

22 We don't have an incentive to sell more 

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1 kilowatt hours since we are nonprofit utilities. 

2 We also support net metering and the ability of 

3 our member owners to self-generate electricity so 

4 long as they are not subsidized by their 

5 neighbors.

6 We will continue to support energy 

7 efficiency, distributed generation, and renewable 

8 energy because our member owners tell us they 

9 support these policies. 

10 As the EPA develops final rules for 

11 carbon emission reduction, we ask that you 

12 consider the unique circumstance of Colorado's 

13 member-owned electric coops and that you provide 

14 as much flexibility as possible in meeting these 

15 targets. 

16 We appreciate this opportunity to comment 

17 and request that EPA seriously consider the 

18 impacts of its rules on Colorado's farmers, 

19 ranchers, and rural electricity consumers.

20 Thank you for your time.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Singer.

22 Next if we can have Ryan Shininger and 

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1 Steve Stevens. 

2 Mr. Shininger. 

3 MR. SHININGER: Yes.

4 MS. SUTIN: Go ahead.

5 MR. SHININGER: My name is Ryan 

6 Shininger. That's spelled S-h-i-n-i-n-g-e-r. 

7 And I have a prepared statement on behalf of my 

8 company Amagao Solar.

9 My name is Ryan Shininger. I'm the 

10 director of engineering for Amagao Solar. Our 

11 U.S. headquarters are in Lakewood, Colorado. 

12 Amagao applies innovative technology solutions 

13 for sustainability in the energy and environment 

14 sectors generating electricity from renewable 

15 resources converting biomass into biofuels and 

16 producing drinking water from sea water.

17 Amagoa's solar business unit develops and 

18 applies technologies to generate electricity from 

19 the sun using mostly solar thermal electric 

20 technologies also known as concentrating solar 

21 power.

22 Amagoa supports the Environmental 

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1 Protection Agency's use of Section 111(d) of the 

2 clean environment Clean Air Act to reduce carbon 

3 dioxide emissions from the power sector and EPA's 

4 approach that provides states with the 

5 flexibility to take advantage of solar as part of 

6 a diverse compliance portfolio. 

7 We also support, including solar, in the 

8 definition of the best systems of emission 

9 reduction. As solar has a suite of proven 

10 technologies that can play a significant role in 

11 helping states reach compliance. 

12 In particular concentrating solar power 

13 can be a significant part of western states' 

14 compliance. CSP uses mirrors to concentrate the 

15 radiation from the sun to generate steam to turn 

16 a conventional steam turbine. This thermal 

17 energy can also be stored to produce electricity 

18 when it is needed night or day. 

19 A CSP plant with thermal energy storage 

20 offers all the services provided by fossil fuel 

21 plants without carbon and other emissions. 

22 CSP plants with thermal energy storage 

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1 can provide operational attributes and other good 

2 services that can assist utilities and grid 

3 operators in maintaining grid reliability. 

4 CSP can be combined with conventional 

5 power plants to form hybrid plants. 

6 Hybridization lowers dependency on conventional 

7 fuel and cuts CO2 emissions from fossil plants. 

8 CSP also diversifies the energy mix and 

9 hedges against the volatility of natural gas. 

10 This technology is commercially available today; 

11 Amagoa Solar's 280 megawatt CSP plant with six 

12 hours of thermal energy storage providing 

13 dispatchable energy after sunset or when cloudy. 

14 Solana delivers enough electricity to supply 

15 approximately 70,000 Arizona households and will 

16 prevent the emission of more than 475,000 tons of 

17 CO2 in the the atmosphere every year.

18 For example, if a power plant like Solana 

19 were to displace a coal plant, it would prevent 

20 the emission of more than one million tons of CO2 

21 every year.

22 In addition to clean energy, CSP provides 

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1 jobs and economic growth throughout the U.S. 

2 Over 70 percent of construction 

3 components, products and services for our Solana 

4 and Mojave CSP plants are sourced from companies 

5 here in the U.S. involving 300 companies from 31 

6 states. 

7 Amagoa has sustainability as a 

8 cornerstone of company strategy and we are 

9 convinced that CSP with thermal energy storage 

10 can contribute significantly to strong and 

11 diverse 111(d) compliance plants.

12 Thank you. 

13 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Shininger.

14 Mr. Stevens.

15 MR. STEVENS: My name is Steve Stevens, 

16 S-t-e-v-e-n-s. I represent my grandchildren, I 

17 represent the grandchildren of everybody here 

18 born and unborn, those grandchildren are not able 

19 to be up here and speak. I am speaking in 

20 support of the rules. I do that reluctantly only 

21 in that I think that although they are bold from 

22 a political standpoint, I think they are very 

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1 weak from the realities of the situation that we 

2 find ourselves in, ecologically and 

3 environmentally. And I'll give you a little bit 

4 about my background.

5 I have heard a report that the head of 

6 the Colorado -- one of the fossil fuel industry 

7 organizations has said that those that are 

8 against fossil fuel-based power are all long9 haired and some other kind of young radical-ish

10 things. I'm not young, I'm in my eighth decade.

11 The hair is not what it once was, but my 

12 career didn't let it be long. 

13 My background was in science and math and 

14 computers. I was at AT&T Bell Telephone 

15 laboratories my whole career as a member of the 

16 staff -- a distinguished member of staff, a 

17 manager, and then responsible for taking Bell 

18 labs technical products out into the world.

19 I've gone around the world on business 

20 trips 120 times. I'm not proud of that fossil 

21 footprint, but it was to get U.S. products placed 

22 overseas.

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1 My training was math, physics, applied 

2 math and computer science. And so I am a 

3 scientist, a grandfather, I'm a retiree, and I --

4 and an advocate for what I call rational sanity, 

5 and I'm a possibility demonstrator. Now, you 

6 don't usually hear that as an avocation or 

7 vocation, but because I care about my 

8 grandchildren, I have taken a 1970s house that's 

9 about 600 foot higher up the hill in Golden, 

10 right near Enrel and changed the walls from being 

11 R9 to being -- one of them is R104. People don't 

12 believe that, architects say no way, if they come 

13 out they go holy S, expletive deleted, you did. 

14 And I have -- I'm growing oranges, mandarin 

15 oranges, navel oranges, bananas, lemons, 

16 cumquats, apples, pears, peaches. Arthritis 

17 herb, oh, yeah, it helps, and a lot of other 

18 things in what was lawn and what is now a passive 

19 envelope on the cell side collecting 650 square 

20 foot of glazing. I have PV on the roof. 

21 Of course, Bell labs where I worked 

22 invented PV. It invented the transistor. It 

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1 invented the cell phone. It invented -- they got 

2 three patents a day for 75 years before the 

3 Reagan Administration busted up the Bell system 

4 and Bell labs went away. But, anyway, I am going 

5 to talk a little bit about the science, logic, 

6 ethics and morality. I have a minute, okay.

7 And the industries that are very profit8 motivated don't talk about science and ethics and 

9 morality, but I think that ethics are extremely 

10 important. And so when we do things that have 

11 downstream costs that can be very injurious, and 

12 we do -- and when we do them in very small 

13 amounts, but the aggregate of a lot of people 

14 doing small amounts makes a large amount. I 

15 think to do that from a profit motive and to say 

16 that we have to have return on investment and all 

17 those things is not a very good way to deal. 

18 I'm done by the red light, so I'll excuse 

19 myself. Thank you for the chance to speak.

20 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Stevens.

21 Next if we can have Shawn Gallegos and 

22 Sonny Kelly.

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1 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Gallegos, you will go 

2 first. And if you can spell your name for the 

3 reporter.

4 MR. GALLEGOS: Sure. I'm Shawn Gallegos, 

5 G-a-l-l-e-g-o-s. First name Shawn, S-h-a-w-n.

6 I'm with the Boilermakers Local 101. I 

7 am the recording Secretary and board member for 

8 Boilermakers Local 101 and I'm here on their 

9 behalf.

10 It starts off with coal and natural gas, 

11 they're both very reliant. Coal has been the 

12 backbone of this country for electrical needs for 

13 a a considerable time and creates quite a few 

14 jobs and we work both natural gas and coal, but 

15 as far as we see it, the EPA is really coming 

16 down hard on coal and some of the laws that are 

17 going into effect there and I'd like to speak on 

18 that behalf.

19 The EPA reports that the reduction of the 

20 CO2 emissions under the clean power plan is 

21 equivalent to a 30 percent cut from 2005 

22 emissions. However, EPA's proposal gives no 

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1 credit to states that already have reduced their 

2 CO2 emissions due to market-driven forces such as 

3 an increase in natural gas use, the retirement of 

4 older coal-generating power plants and the 

5 construction of new nuclear generation. 

6 Since 2005 CO2 emissions from the fossil 

7 fuel plants have decreased by 13 percent. Many 

8 states highly dependent on coal-based generation 

9 have already achieved significant emission 

10 reductions but still face the additional burden 

11 of further reducing their CO2 emissions on the 

12 short time table set by the EPA's rules.

13 The EPA also projects that this rule will 

14 cause the loss of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal15 generating capacity by the year 2020. These 

16 retirements are in addition to the 92 gigawatts 

17 of coal capacity that the EPA has already 

18 projected will shut down between 2012 and 2020, 

19 due in large part to the compliance with the 2012 

20 mercury and air toxic rule.

21 We believe that losing around 130 

22 gigawatts of base-load coal capacity, nearly 40 

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1 percent of the nation's coal generation fleet in 

2 2012 raises serious concerns about the future 

3 reliability of our electrical power supplies.

4 A preliminary estimate of the jobs impact 

5 of the EPA's proposed clean air power indicates 

6 the potential loss of 52,000 permanent direct 

7 jobs by 2020 in the utility, rail, and coal 

8 sectors due to power plant retirements and the

9 lost of 167,000 total direct and indirect jobs. 

10 These direct jobs are all highly skilled, 

11 high paying, typically in rural communities 

12 without the opportunities for comparable 

13 employment. These impacts do not consider any of 

14 the job losses associated with the closure of 

15 plants due to the rules and other factors.

16 So with that being said, the EPA's 

17 proposal for increasing the dispatch of natural 

18 gas combined cycle units in addition to the 40 

19 gigawatts of new natural gas combined cycle 

20 capacity that the EPA projects to come on line 

21 from 2020 to 2030 will lead to a significant 

22 increase in natural gas price, well, above the 

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1 EPA's projections.

2 The price increases will be further 

3 amplified by the LNG export, independent analysis 

4 project that utility gas demand may rise 

5 threefold above the EPA's forecast. 

6 Consumers in energy intensive industries 

7 will bear the brunt of these gas pricing 

8 increases.

9 We have several recommendations about 

10 what we think the revision to the clean power 

11 plan should be.

12 The first would be a plan that provides 

13 states with credit for prior CO2 reductions as an 

14 option towards meeting the reasonable national 

15 target for reducing CO2 emissions from the 

16 electrical power sector.

17 Another would be the EPA's proposal for 

18 major expansion of state energy efficiency and 

19 renewable energy programs. They interfere with 

20 the traditional state authority in energy 

21 planning and appear to be well beyond the 

22 Agency's authority under the Clean Air Act. 

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1 The Supreme Court's recent decision on 

2 the GHG permitting rule contains strong 

3 cautionary language, but the Court will take a 

4 skeptical view of an overly expansive 

5 interpretation of the EPA's authority to regulate 

6 greenhouse gases.

7 We also believe that the Agency consider 

8 the proposed rule and building block approach to 

9 set CO2 emission reduction goals based on the 

10 end-use energy efficiency, increased use of 

11 natural gas and renewable energy as well as other 

12 beyond-the-fence emission reduction strategies, 

13 rather we urge the EPA to focus the rule only on 

14 options for reducing emissions within the plant 

15 fence line. 

16 The proposed 6 percent efficiency 

17 improvement for existing coal coal units is a 

18 step in the right direction, but we are doubtful 

19 that all these investments would ever be made 

20 given the rule's negative impact on coal 

21 generation and the use source review for making 

22 constraints. And that's all I have for you.

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1 Thank you. 

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Gallegos.

3 Ms. Kelly?

4 MS. KELLY: My name is Sonny Covin Kelly, 

5 it's K-e-l-l-y. I live in Greenwood Village, 

6 Colorado. I'm here to speak in support of both 

7 the clean power plan for existing power plants 

8 and the carbon pollution standard for new and 

9 modified sources.

10 I'm not a scientist or engineer. But I 

11 stay informed and am presenting the following 

12 statement in my own words in support of the 

13 regulations proposed by the EPA. I'm also here 

14 for my grandchildren, future grandchildren.

15 From the horse-drawn buggies to cars, 

16 from blocks of ice to refrigeration, 

17 refrigerators, from polluted air and water to the 

18 EPA regulations resulting in cleaner air and 

19 water, the USA has come a long way. 

20 Along that way the EPA has also regulated 

21 vehicle emissions and the use of Freon in 

22 refrigerators, and we are all better off for that 

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1 regulation. 

2 Ironically, the earliest inventor of 

3 refrigeration was prevented from bringing it to 

4 the consumers by companies that sold blocks of 

5 ice in the north. Now, as in the past, companies 

6 and organizations are trying to stop progress in 

7 climate change, fearful of the loss of jobs and 

8 profits.

9 However, in the past, as now, progress 

10 and improvement in people's lives are inevitable. 

11 And new jobs and profits, new companies, are 

12 already being created. The challenge we face 

13 with regard to greenhouse gas emissions, however, 

14 is far different than anything that we have as a 

15 country and as a global community faced in the 

16 past. 

17 While we have used burning coal to better 

18 people's lives, we to not want to irrevocably 

19 damage our planet in the process of continuing to 

20 allow carbon emissions without regulation. 

21 Extreme weather events such as droughts, 

22 forest fires, floods, and other climate-related 

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1 weather events along with acidification of the 

2 oceans, melting ice caps, rising ocean levels, 

3 and increasing medical problems such as asthma 

4 are well documented. 

5 While I do not have specific solutions to 

6 offer, I want to add my voice to those millions 

7 of other people who realize that the human and 

8 economic costs of global warming far outweighs 

9 any benefits that can be derived from the status 

10 quo. Regarding economic costs, climate change 

11 due to greenhouse gas emissions is already 

12 costing American taxpayers billions of dollars in 

13 disaster relief. 

14 The Department of Defense has long 

15 recognized that climate change is a security 

16 issue. And civil wars and local conflicts have 

17 already resulted from (sound interference) 

18 brought about -- that is why regulation of carbon 

19 emissions is necessary. 

20 This is why the United States needs to 

21 take a leading role in regulating carbon 

22 emissions from coal-fired electric generating 

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1 plants, emissions that trap heat and contribute 

2 to global warming. 

3 The role of the United States, if we take 

4 this role on, will enhance the stature of America 

5 in the world and make getting other countries to 

6 cooperate in efforts to take actions that 

7 positively affect climate change much easier.

8 My mother at 92 years old still feeds the 

9 birds that visit her yard in Houston, Texas, a 

10 part of the country that has experienced severe 

11 drought. She taught me to love the outdoors and 

12 all of the creatures we found there. Sorry.

13 My father who has passed away, taught me 

14 to respect and treat all people equally. Because 

15 of those lessons and values from my parents, I am 

16 concerned about all creatures and all people.

17 As our parish priest told us this last

18 Sunday, we can take action at the individual 

19 level, at the group level, or at the level where 

20 the world and everything in it is our community. 

21 I hope that we as a country or at the level we 

22 act not selfishly as individuals or only in 

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1 groups that think alike, but we act on a global 

2 level, starting at home with the regulations, 

3 carbon emissions from coal-fired generating as a 

4 first step and reversing the global warming that 

5 results from carbon emissions.

6 As I said, I'm just one person. I came 

7 here today to let the EPA know that I support the 

8 proposed rulemaking and would support even 

9 broader efforts to curb greenhouse gas emissions.

10 I started out by talking about change and 

11 bettering people's lives. I strongly support the 

12 EPA's proposed rules which can improve the lives 

13 of all Americans and our plant. The time for 

14 action is now. While at times we do hear voices 

15 of critics --

16 MS. SUTIN: Ms. Kelly, I need you to wrap 

17 up. 

18 MS. KELLY: -- of the EPA -- okay. 

19 Millions of Americans respect and believe in the 

20 need for the EPA. Thank you for your time and 

21 good work that you've done and will continue to 

22 do.

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1 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

2 Okay. If I can have Jack Ihle, and 

3 Michael Hiatt. Mr. Ihle.

4 MR. IHLE: Yes.

5 MS. SUTIN: You'll be first. Thank you.

6 MR. IHLE: Good morning. My name is Jack 

7 Ihle, it's spelled I-h-l-e. I'm director of 

8 environmental policy for Xcel Energy.

9 Xcel Energy is an investor-owned gas and 

10 electric utility serving eight states, Colorado, 

11 Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, North Dakota, 

12 South Dakota, Texas, and Wisconsin.

13 We have a strong record of clean energy 

14 leadership. I'm proud to say we're the number 

15 one utility provider of wind energy in the United 

16 States for the last decade. We expect to serve 

17 our customers with 27 percent renewable energy by 

18 2020.

19 Our energy efficiency programs are the 

20 fifth largest in the nation. In some of our 

21 states these programs offset about 1 percent per 

22 year of new energy and growth. 

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1 The Colorado Clean Air Clean Jobs Act 

2 plan which is cited in the rule as an example of 

3 state leadership will substantially reduce 

4 conventional pollutants and modernize our 

5 existing coal fleet while also phasing out less 

6 efficient older coal units which will reduce 

7 carbon dioxide emissions.

8 The plan was initiated to help our 

9 company to cost effectively manage several 

10 environmental challenges including this proposed 

11 rule on behalf of our customers. These efforts 

12 lead to CO2 emissions from owned and purchased 

13 generation that will be 30 percent below 2005 

14 levels by 2020.

15 We've already reduced emissions by 19 

16 percent from 2005. Our clean energy strategy is 

17 an example of how states and utilities can work 

18 together to significantly reduce emissions at the 

19 lowest cost to customers. 

20 We appreciate EPA's outreach efforts and

21 the rule's flexibility. EPA over the last two 

22 years or so has conducted a tremendous outreach 

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1 effort so far and now that there is a proposed 

2 rule we do take seriously EPA's call for input to 

3 that rule. 

4 We also appreciate the implementation 

5 flexibility the rule offers. In many ways the 

6 rule is quite ambitious but a utility or state 

7 can achieve the targets through a fairly broad 

8 set of compliance activities. That said, we do 

9 have concerns with this rule. 

10 First, EPA should look to incorporate 

11 more flexibility into the early or interim 

12 targets. More flexible early targets will 

13 mitigate a number of concerns including pressure 

14 on the states to develop ambitious compliance 

15 plans and the pressure on utilities to quickly 

16 implement reduction measures. 

17 Greater flexibility will inevitably lower 

18 costs as utilities and other actors have time to 

19 implement reductions more efficiently.

20 However, our primary concern centers on 

21 the rules' treatment of early actions to reduce 

22 emissions. The rule begins its data baseline in 

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1 the year 2012 which tends to ignore actions prior 

2 to that date. Further, the target-setting 

3 process embeds mechanisms, some of which may have 

4 been unintentional that further ignore early 

5 action. Block one ignores any heat rate 

6 improvements already done at coal units. Block 

7 two imparts a more stringent target on states and 

8 utilities that have already developed natural gas 

9 combined cycle plants, or that operate natural 

10 gas combined cycle plants to integrate high 

11 levels of wind. 

12 Block three gives softer targets and 

13 states that have developed renewable energy more 

14 slowly.

15 Block four does not recognize that 

16 ongoing energy efficiency efforts may be harder 

17 to sustain at high levels in states where 

18 efficiency has already been aggressively pursued 

19 for many years. Further, we need clarifications 

20 in the final rule that ensure obvious reduction 

21 activities such as the ongoing coal plant 

22 retirements happening under the Clean Air Clean 

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1 Jobs Act that the rule cites are unequivocally 

2 recognized toward compliance with the rule. 

3 Finally, we are also concerned with EPA's 

4 entry into areas of energy policy where it has 

5 limited background such as in renewable energy or 

6 energy efficiency policy.

7 We will work with EPA and our states to 

8 help create a better policy. Xcel Energy is 

9 committed to making a better rule for our 

10 customers. We are considering policy proposals 

11 that will make the rule more workable, more fair 

12 for the states, utilities and customers paying 

13 for the reduction sought under the rule.

14 For instance, we'll be seeking better 

15 recognition of early emission reductions done 

16 through state policies and paid for by utility 

17 customers. We want to continue to work with EPA 

18 through the comment process to address the 

19 concerns of the company and the states in which 

20 we operate. 

21 We will be submitting comments in October 

22 toward these ends. So thank you. 

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1 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

2 Mr. Hiatt?

3 MR. HIATT: Good morning, my name is 

4 Michael Hiatt, that's spelled H-i-a-t-t. I am 

5 attorney with Earth Justice here in Denver, 

6 Colorado.

7 Earth Justice is a national non-profit 

8 organization that works to use the power of the 

9 law to promote a healthy climate, a healthy 

10 communities, and to help protect our country's 

11 iconic national heritage.

12 Existing fossil fuel power plants are the 

13 largest contributor to carbon pollution and 

14 climate change in the United States and are 

15 responsible for roughly 40 percent of our 

16 country's greenhouse gas emissions.

17 Earth Justice supports EPA's historic 

18 efforts to reduce carbon pollution from these

19 power plants. EPA's clean power plan is a 

20 critical step for transitioning the United States 

21 for a modern 21st century clean energy economy. 

22 But more should be done. 

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1 The clean power plan could be the most 

2 important environmental safeguard in a generation 

3 if we make the plan as strong as possible and 

4 don't delay. 

5 EPA should require greater and quicker 

6 reductions in carbon pollution than the clean 

7 power plan currently proposes. In the final rule 

8 EPA should require at least a 35 percent 

9 reduction in carbon pollution by 2020. EPA's 

10 analysis and experience in the states show that 

11 we can easily make bigger and faster strides from 

12 cutting carbon pollution and there's no time to 

13 waste in the fight against climate change. 

14 First EPA should require addition 

15 reductions in carbon pollution beyond the clean 

16 power plan's relatively modest goals. In some 

17 states EPA's plan will not require any additional 

18 renewable energy or energy efficiency measures 

19 beyond which the states are already achieving or 

20 have already committed to achieve.

21 For example, here in Colorado our 

22 renewable energy standard requires 30 percent 

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1 renewables by the year 2020. The EPA's proposal 

2 assumes that renewable will make up only 21 

3 percent of Colorado's energy supply in 2030. 

4 Colorado clearly can and will do more on 

5 renewable energy than EPA assumes in this rule 

6 and the same is true of many other states. 

7 Second, EPA should not delay full 

8 implementation of the rule until 2030. As we've 

9 seen here in Colorado, since passage of our 

10 renewable energy standard back in 2004, when 

11 states get serious about increasing clean energy 

12 and decreasing reliance on dirty fossil fuels, 

13 they can quickly ramp up renewable energy 

14 generation. And there is no need to wait over 15 

15 years for full implementation of this rule.

16 In addition, EPA should make sure that 

17 the carbon reductions required by the plan are 

18 real and verifiable. EPA has provided the states 

19 a significant level of flexibility which is 

20 important. But we need a good framework to 

21 ensure that a ton of carbon avoided in one state 

22 is treated the same a ton of carbon avoided in 

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1 other states.

2 EPA should make sure that the final rule 

3 includes clear and fair rules that can be easily 

4 enforced. An ambitious clean power plan is 

5 particularly important here in Colorado. We are 

6 already feeling the effects of climate change. 

7 Just within the past year or two here in Colorado 

8 we've all lived through and experienced historic 

9 wildfire, and historic flood last fall, and 

10 despite the rain today, we're in the midst of an 

11 historic drought in the western United States 

12 that's continuing to get worse.

13 Climate change makes these extreme 

14 weather events more frequent and more severe. In 

15 the past year or two it's given us in Colorado an 

16 unsettling glimpse of what lies in our future and 

17 our children's future here in Colorado if we fail 

18 to take strong and decisive action to address 

19 climate change today.

20 The clean power plan also provides 

21 tremendous opportunities for Colorado. Colorado 

22 is a national leader on renewable energy and is 

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1 home to many of the leading renewable energy 

2 companies and entrepreneurs in this nation. 

3 As other states increase renewable energy 

4 generation as a result of this rule, Colorado 

5 stands to gain. As a result the clean power plan 

6 will not just be good for Coloradoan by cleaning 

7 up the air we breath, by helping protect the 

8 natural air as we all know and love in this 

9 state, it will also be good for Colorado jobs and 

10 good for Colorado's economy.

11 So in conclusion Earth Justice supports 

12 EPA's historic action on climate change. And we 

13 urge EPA to go even further in addressing carbon 

14 pollution and helping our nation transition to a 

15 modern, clean energy economy. Thanks.

16 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Hiatt. 

17 Next if I can have Aldolfe Sciens (ph) 

18 and Simon Mustafa (ph). 

19 I apologize if I pronounced your names 

20 wrong. 

21 MS. SCIENS: My name is Lutsa Sciens and 

22 I'm the director of the Latino organizing program 

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1 at Conservation Colorado.

2 The professional role I represent today 

3 has been very interesting the past six months. I 

4 heard about the urgent need to bring Latinos to 

5 the conservation table, the need to diversify the 

6 movement, and the importance of all communities 

7 having a voice. 

8 However, it is no secret that Latinos are 

9 recognized as a sleeping giant who has the 

10 potential to be the deciding factor in elections. 

11 There are roughly 15 million American Latino 

12 youth in the U.S. and 50 percent of all eligible 

13 voters are under 40, while 33 percent are between 

14 the ages of 18 and 34. 

15 We are a young population that will be 

16 around a long time to participate in the 

17 democratic process and that will suffer the 

18 consequences of climate change and the quality of 

19 our air. 

20 In Colorado Latinos are almost 21 percent 

21 of the electorate and by 2050 Latino youth are 

22 expected to comprise 29 percent of the U.S. 

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1 population.

2 Finally, 66,000 American Latinos turn 18 

3 every month. So as you can see, it is quite 

4 clear why there is a strong interest in engaging 

5 Latinos in environmental issues.

6 Despite the evident need to engage 

7 Latinos, I was confused as to why people would 

8 tell me that would be a challenge to make Latinos 

9 care about the environment. That Latinos don't 

10 care and that we are too concerned with 

11 immigration and education. That was shocking to 

12 me because a connection that we have as Latinos 

13 to mother earth has embedded itself into our 

14 culture as a way of life, traditions like 

15 hunting, fishing camping, hiking, earth 

16 gathering, farming and ranching have created a 

17 spiritual bond between Latinos and outdoor 

18 heritage. We've also always been very aware of 

19 how finite resources are, especially when 

20 economic barriers are at play. So to reduce, 

21 recycle, and reuse has always been a cultural 

22 norm amongst Latinos.

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1 Despite these natural alignments to the 

2 conservation movement, Latinos have also been on 

3 the frontline of environmental impact.

4 (Audio disruptions.)

5 MS. SCEINS: The southwest alone is 

6 already experiencing impacts of climate change 

7 affecting the lives and economies of 56 million 

8 people, a population that is expected to increase 

9 68 percent by 2050 to 94 million. 

10 Increased heat, drought, and insect 

11 outbreaks all linked to climate change have 

12 increased wildfires. Declining water supplies 

13 reduce agricultural yields, health impacts in 

14 cities due to heat and flooding and erosion in 

15 coast areas are additional concerns.

16 The most vulnerable people in our society 

17 are oftentimes the most impacted by these 

18 effects, our elderly, our children, our low19 income communities and communities of color. 

20 Latinos specifically are disproportionately 

21 impacted by poor air quality, suffering higher 

22 rates of chronic ailments like asthma. Latinos 

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1 are three times more likely to die from asthma 

2 than any other ethnic group in the U.S.; 68 

3 percent of Latinos in Colorado live in counties 

4 that violate federal smog standards; and 39 

5 percent of Latinos nationwide live within 30 

6 miles of a power plant. 

7 My point is that the standards that we 

8 set for air quality are not only amoral, 

9 economic, health and commonsense issue, but a 

10 social justice issue. It's interesting to me 

11 that given the huge environmental injustices that 

12 stem from the very important decisions our 

13 country is facing right now to regulate carbon or 

14 not, the most impacted are not here today. 

15 I say interesting and not surprising 

16 because I think of what was required of them to 

17 be here today. First of all, that they register 

18 to testify through an online registration which 

19 is offered only in one language. That they take 

20 time off of work to testify for a whole five 

21 minutes. Assuming their work is flexible enough 

22 to allow that, but that they also bring their 

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1 children or leave them behind somewhere. Given 

2 that it is summertime and most children are at 

3 home.

4 Finally, that they travel downtown where 

5 we know parking is horrible and go into a federal

6 building in front of you to testify today. 

7 (Speaking Spanish.)

8 Those requirements for working-class 

9 families is like me speaking to you in Spanish. 

10 Simply we speak two different languages.

11 As you can see, the simple process of 

12 being here today to participate in the 

13 decisionmaking process in our country is a 

14 barrier in itself. So I ask you today that you 

15 do not take the environmental justice or 

16 injustices perspective lightly. Just because it 

17 may not be in front of you as rampant as it is 

18 present in our communities.

19 Oftentimes we expect communities to come 

20 to us, to be part of our process and be part of 

21 our movement the way we want them to be, without 

22 actually intending on meeting communities where 

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1 they are, without taking into consideration how 

2 we are already part of the process and the 

3 movement.

4 Thank you.

5 MS. SUTIN: Please no clapping.

6 Ms. Sceins, can you tell me gain, the 

7 name of your organization? 

8 MS. SCEINS: Conservation Colorado. 

9 MS. SUTIN: Thank you.

10 If you've arrived into the room late, 

11 we've asked that people please not clap so that 

12 everyone feels comfortable speaking. Thank you.

13 Go ahead, Mr. Mustafa.

14 MR. MOSTAFA: Good morning. Thank you 

15 very much for the opportunity to speak today. My 

16 name is Simon Mostafa. I'm a Ph.D. student in 

17 environmental engineering at CU Boulder. I'm 

18 also a fan of the EPA. I think we all love your 

19 greatest states and the Clean Air Act and the 

20 Water Act. So really good stuff. And I'm also 

21 personally grateful because through the EPA star 

22 fellowship I'm able to be able to school for my 

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1 doctorate here in Boulder, here in Colorado. 

2 So I'm really excited to speak in front 

3 of you today to talk about the clean power plan. 

4 I think it's a really, really exciting policy 

5 idea. I really like its spirit, I really like 

6 its approach, and I would like to say that I feel 

7 it's a little bit limited in scope. And I want 

8 to speak honestly because I think we're all on 

9 the same side on this issue. We all want to 

10 fight the most devastating effects of climate 

11 change through mitigating some the emissions.

12 For example, I would like to invite you 

13 to a little ambitioning exercise, instead of 

14 thinking of this as a plan to simply reduce 

15 carbon emissions from power plants, what if we 

16 could think of this of this as a way of limiting 

17 or reducing greenhouse gas emissions from our 

18 energy sector. So conceptually it's not that 

19 different, but in terms of the actual policy 

20 implications, there's very important differences 

21 that will make a world of difference if we're 

22 actually serious about fighting climate change 

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1 and not just creating symbolic legislature. 

2 For example, we know or I consider that 

3 the units being used to measure the carbon 

4 intensity like the carbon release during 

5 combustion, it's a limited unit to really 

6 encompass the full effect of greenhouse emissions 

7 and climate change. For example, methane 

8 emissions during natural gas extraction and 

9 transport and offset, some of the greenhouse 

10 gains that you might get from burning natural gas 

11 and this may not be accounted for at least in my 

12 interpretation of this policy proposal.

13 So, I think it would be good to remember 

14 once in a while that natural gas is still a 

15 fossil fuel and as the name indicates, it's 

16 fossil because it belongs in the ground and it's 

17 dead, and we should be looking forward to new 

18 ideas.

19 So one potential solution for this will 

20 be instead of using just the carbon emissions at 

21 the combustion we can use CO2 equivalent or some 

22 other unit that better encompasses an ocean of 

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1 greenhouse emissions and also can steady the

2 entire life cycle of the fuels from extraction, 

3 storage, transport, and finally energy generation 

4 through combustion. 

5 Side note on fracking, we could close 

6 some of those loopholes that are there in some of 

7 the other regulations that will be great. I know 

8 you're busy, but just talking about fracking and 

9 -- I thought it would be very useful to say that.

10 Another point I wanted to make was that 

11 while most of the environmental problems and 

12 solutions that the EPA deals with are local, 

13 climate change regards a global way of thinking 

14 and about think global, a global kind of 

15 approach. So I think we should also consider our 

16 fossil fuel exports. So we should ask ourselves, 

17 how much are the natural gas and coal -- is the 

18 natural gas and coal that we're shipping abroad, 

19 how much is that, and how much is that 

20 undermining our efforts to reduce greenhouse 

21 emissions here at home?

22 We know that stuff is taken from the 

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1 ground, it's getting burned somewhere, and it's 

2 causing the exact same problems globally that 

3 we're trying to fight here at home. 

4 So its like as if we had a manufacturer 

5 under the Clean Water Act that could increase the 

6 limitation of some pollutant by having somebody 

7 else dump their waste into the ocean for them. 

8 They're just passing along the problem. 

9 In terms of our leadership here in the 

10 U.S., how can we honestly sell or work with other 

11 nations to try to reduce their emissions while we 

12 are the ones selling the fossil fuels to them for 

13 them to burn. You know, it's like Coca-Cola

14 telling us that we have too much sugar on our 

15 diet. You know, kind of strange.

16 So here's a modest proposal that might 

17 deal with some of these issues. Maybe we can 

18 include, as part of that carbon budget, that each 

19 state should report and reduce, maybe they can 

20 include there all the stuff that's being 

21 extracted here but burned elsewhere. We know 

22 exactly where that's going, what's going to 

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1 happen to it, and how much CO2 emissions we're 

2 going to generate from that.

3 So I'm excited about this proposal. I 

4 think it should and it could be bolder. And I 

5 think with both standards and include life cycle 

6 emissions for all greenhouse gases as well as our 

7 expert submissions, we could have a clean and 

8 powerful plant to significantly reduce the 

9 contributions of our energy sector to global 

10 climate change and set a path for true energy 

11 independence. That is independence from energy 

12 that is tied to the devastation of our planet.

13 Thank you very much for your time, 

14 honestly appreciate it.

15 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Mr. Mostafa, do 

16 you mind spelling your name for the reporter?

17 MR. MOSTAFA: Yes. Simon is S-i-m-o-n, 

18 delta on the o. And Mostafa, M-o-s-t-a-f-a. 

19 Thank you.

20 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

21 Next if we can have Mark Ourada and 

22 Michelle Freeark. Go ahead. 

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1 MR. OURADA: Great. Thank you. Good 

2 morning, my name is Mark Ourada. I am the 

3 central region Vice President for the American 

4 Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity. Our 

5 members include investor-owned utilities, rural 

6 cooperatives, coal producers, railroads, 

7 manufacturers that are involved in providing the 

8 foregoing reliable electricity from coal. 

9 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

10 today.

11 Because of many serious flaws, ACCCE 

12 urges EPA to withdraw its proposal. I will 

13 highlight a few of these flaws briefly in the 

14 short time I have available. 

15 First, the Clean Air Act does not allow 

16 EPA to regulate greenhouse gas emissions from 

17 existing coal-fired power plants under Section 

18 111(d) because coal-fired power plant are already 

19 regulated by EPA under Section 112 of the Clean 

20 Air Act.

21 Recently Attorneys General from nine 

22 states filed an amicus brief to stop the EPA's 

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1 proposal for this very reason saying that the 

2 proposal, quote, "Violates the literal terms of 

3 the Clean Air Act."

4 Even if EPA believes it has specific 

5 authority to regulate Section 111(d) allows EPA 

6 to set emission standards based solely on 

7 emission reductions that can be achieved inside 

8 the fence line. However, this proposal requires 

9 substantial reductions outside the fence.

10 Last year before the proposal was issued, 

11 Attorneys General from 12 state warned EPA that 

12 the agency would not have authority to regulate 

13 emissions reductions outside the fence. 

14 Second, EPA's proposal will cost 

15 unacceptable economic impacts including higher 

16 energy prices. ACCCE sponsored extensive 

17 analysis of the NRDC proposal which served as a 

18 blueprint of the EPA's proposal. 

19 Our analysis projected, among other 

20 impacts, double digit electricity price increases 

21 in most state and substantial increases in 

22 natural gas prices nationwide. Higher energy 

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1 prices have a disproportionately greater impact 

2 on lower-income and middle-income families.

3 Lower-income families are especially 

4 vulnerable to higher energy costs because energy 

5 represents a larger portion of their budget and 

6 reduces the amount of income they have to spend 

7 on other necessities. 

8 It is also worth noting that states with 

9 carbon constraints are already experiencing 

10 significantly higher electricity prices. Three 

11 months ago, electricity prices in California were 

12 17 percent higher than the national average and 

13 New England states, part of the greenhouse gas 

14 initiative have 52 percent higher electricity 

15 prices. 

16 Third, EPA has proposed to substitute as 

17 judgment for that public utilities commissioners, 

18 utility companies grid operators, and consumers 

19 across the nation, while by presuming the 

20 appropriate amounts of electricity from coal, 

21 natural gas, nuclear and renewables as well as 

22 presuming how much electricity consumers should 

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1 use in each state. In fact, Administrator 

2 McCarthy testified recently that EPA wants 

3 consumers to use less energy.

4 Although the EPA claims states have 

5 flexibility to determine how to meet the EPA 

6 goals, the magnitude of emissions reductions 

7 leave most states little alternative but to 

8 follow the EPA mandates.

9 Fourth, EPA bases its proposal on flawed 

10 information and assumptions for the four building 

11 blocks that are the basis for each of the state 

12 emissions targets. 

13 And, finally, despite enormous economic 

14 impacts, the proposal will have no meaningful 

15 effect on climate change because the proposal 

16 will reduce global greenhouse gas emissions by 

17 less than 1 percent. If EPA's own scientific 

18 assessments are correct, the emissions reductions 

19 from this proposal will result in a meaningless 1 

20 percent reduction in atmospheric CO2 

21 concentrations and insignificant reduction in 

22 global average temperatures of two one-hundredths 

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1 of a degree and a trivial reduction in sea level 

2 rise of one one-thousandth of an inch, the 

3 thickness of three sheets of paper. 

4 In conclusion, EPA's proposal has 

5 fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed by simply 

6 changes to it. Instead, we urge the EPA to 

7 withdraw the proposal.

8 Thank you for the opportunity.

9 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Could you spell 

10 your last name for the record? 

11 MR. OURADA: O-u-r-a-d-a. 

12 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Go ahead.

13 MS. FREEARK: Good morning. My name is 

14 Michele Freeark. I am the Director of Safety and 

15 Environmental Services for Arizona Electric Power 

16 Cooperative, AEPCO.

17 AEPCO is an electric generation 

18 cooperative which owns and operates Apache 

19 generating station located in southeastern 

20 Arizona, approximately 30 miles east of Benson, 

21 Arizona. This facility is the only generation 

22 owned and operated by AEPCO. 

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1 Apache generating station currently 

2 consists of two coal-fired steam units, one 

3 combined cycle steam unit, and three simple cycle 

4 turbines. 

5 AEPCO is a member-owned, not-for-profit 

6 generation cooperative which provides wholesale 

7 power to six rural electric distribution -- also 

8 not-for-profit -- systems serving end customers 

9 in Arizona, California, and New Mexico. Those 

10 members serve approximately 150,000 meters, 

11 mostly residential, who live approximately 33 

12 percent below the federal poverty level and also 

13 serving seven tribes. 

14 AEPCO is concerned that EPA's clean power

15 plan threatens to undo the work done by Congress 

16 since the 1930s under the Rural Electrification 

17 Act. The Rural Electrification Act helped bring 

18 electricity to many rural areas of the United 

19 States. Most of the rural electrification is the 

20 product of locally owned rural electric 

21 cooperatives that borrow funds from the Rural 

22 Electrification Administration to build new lines 

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1 and provide service on a not-for-profit basis.

2 The Rural Electrification Administration 

3 is now the Rural Utility Service and is part of 

4 the U.S. Department of Agriculture. 

5 Since passing the Rural Electrification 

6 Act coops distribute electricity to consumers 

7 through distribution lines that cover more than 

8 75 percent of the nation's land mass. Given the 

9 importance of rural electric distribution and 

10 generation to those it serves, AEPCO is concerned 

11 about multiple aspects of EPA's proposed clean 

12 power plan both as it relates specifically to 

13 Arizona and AEPCO, and also more generally as it 

14 relates to cooperatives and small utilities. 

15 Based on our evaluation of EPA's 

16 documents on development of the state CO2 goal 

17 for Arizona, it appears that EPA contemplates the 

18 complete replacement of Arizona's and AEPCO's 

19 coal-fired resources by other existing natural 

20 gas combined cycle, NGCC, generation. This is 

21 problematic for several reasons.

22 First, it is not clear that this 

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1 generation capacity actually exists. EPA used 

2 gross, not net, generation which overstates 

3 available resource. It is also unclear whether 

4 EPA reduced the generation account for reserves, 

5 transmission constraints, transmission losses, 

6 and added related issues. 

7 Second, EPA used an annual average 

8 capacity factor. This capacity may not be 

9 available during peak periods and for operational 

10 reasons coal-fired units cannot be used 

11 interchangeably with natural gas-fired units for 

12 peaking. 

13 EPA needs to evaluate capacity on a 

14 seasonal, if not hourly basis to determine how 

15 much capacity can effectively be dispatched. Any 

16 such analysis must account for reserves, 

17 transmission constraints, transmission losses, 

18 and related issues discussed above.

19 Third, the rule assumes that this 

20 capacity is available for purchase by operators 

21 of existing coal-fired units. It is not clear 

22 that this is the case or that the rate impacts 

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1 are acceptable. 

2 Currently our cost to generate from 

3 natural gas is roughly double that of a coal4 fired resource. Further, today, over 90 percent 

5 of the energy we supply to our members comes from 

6 coal. This increase in fuel cost alone could 

7 result in a substantial rise in electricity costs 

8 for Arizona rate payers.

9 Fourth it is not clear that even 

10 switching to NGCC will help AEPCO and similarly 

11 situated cooperatives and small utilities to meet 

12 the goal.

13 EPA's goal of 702 pounds per megawatt 

14 hour for Arizona is well below the carbon 

15 intensity that AEPCO can achieve at its units due 

16 to their elevation and design even with 

17 efficiency improvements.

18 It is also not clear that AEPCO can 

19 purchase any existing units that could achieve 

20 this rate. AEPCO is thus forced to rely on 

21 energy efficiency and renewable energy. 

22 Unfortunately, under Arizona utility structure 

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1 AEPCO does not participate directly in those 

2 programs, its members do. Under EPA's proposal 

3 it is not clear whether AEPCO can get credit for 

4 that work. 

5 Fifth, AEPCO needs to provide more 

6 clarity on how earlier action affect our 

7 obligations. AEPCO is committed under the 

8 regional Hayes program to convert one of our 

9 steam coal-fired units permanently to natural gas 

10 by December 5th, 2017.

11 We need a stronger assurance that the 

12 reduction is credible, that it will not be 

13 enough. 

14 The projected costs of the clean power 

15 plan are unreasonable, unaffordable, and 

16 impracticable for AEPCO and more importantly for 

17 the members relying on AEPCO for electricity.

18 In conclusion we believe the EPA should 

19 reevaluate the building block assumptions using 

20 the target reductions for Arizona. Thank you.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Freeark. Can 

22 you spell your name for the court reporter.

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1 MS. FREEARK: It's F-r-e-e-a-r-k.

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you.

3 Next if we can have Joseph Fross and Abby 

4 Crespa.

5 Mr. Fross will go first.

6 MR. FROSS: Good morning. My name is 

7 Joey Fross, F-r-o-s-s. I'm here speaking on 

8 behalf of the International Brotherhood of 

9 Boilermakers, Iron Ship Builders, Blacksmiths, 

10 Forgers, and Helpers out of Local Lodge 101 here 

11 in Denver, Colorado.

12 We are here today because our members are 

13 concerned about the loss of their jobs due to the 

14 EPA proposed clean power plan. The EPA (a) plans 

15 to regulate generation and the use of energy,

16 removing it from state and voter control. This 

17 use should be left in the hands of taxpaying 

18 voters and not bureaucrats. 

19 As projected in 2009, the EPA plans to 

20 eliminate 35 percent of the coal production by 

21 2020. That's roughly 40 percent of the coal22 fired generating stations in the United States. 

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1 This drastic reduction translates into 

2 the loss of 52,000 direct jobs with utility 

3 companies and another 167,000 direct and indirect 

4 jobs affecting mainly coal miners and railroads. 

5 This translates into 130 gigawatt reduction in 

6 coal-generated electricity, that's like 107 times 

7 more energy than it took Doc to send Marty Back 

8 to the Future. 

9 Moving on, 92 of the 133 gigawatts being 

10 generated by facilities already scheduled for 

11 permanent shutdown due to the passage of the 

12 Mercury Air Toxics Rule. Eliminating these key 

13 components of our infrastructure will most 

14 definitely prove to be costly for the consumer, 

15 especially in the midst of our nuclear 

16 infrastructure aging and their already extended 

17 NRC operating licenses.

18 With the ever-increasing demand for 

19 power, and reduction in generating capacity, we 

20 may not be able to meet power demands without 

21 coal-fired generating stations. 

22 Coal-fired generating stations are a 

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1 proven effective technology. Today we are 

2 burning coal cleaner and more efficiently than 

3 ever. Since 2005, CO2 emissions have reduced by 

4 13 percent. 

5 EPA has proposed dispatching 40 gigawatts

6 of natural gas combined cycle units by 2030. 

7 This will lead to significant increases in the 

8 price of natural gas further amplified by LNG 

9 exports. Thousands of families use natural gas 

10 to heat their homes, skyrocketing natural gas and 

11 electricity costs could meaning freezing to death 

12 in the dark this winter for some families.

13 We recognize the importance of protecting 

14 our environment. As skilled boilermaker 

15 craftsmen we have built our careers on building, 

16 maintaining, upgrading, and retrofitting coal17 fired power plants with components that increase 

18 efficiency and reduce emissions. Clean coal 

19 technology, CO2 capture and storage and overall 

20 efficiency can be obtained. Although the 

21 astronomical costs implementing these changes can 

22 take states and utility companies years to plan, 

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1 budget, and formulate an effective plan to reduce 

2 emissions. 

3 For this legislation to be effective and 

4 mutually beneficial, not only for the utility 

5 companies, the EPA, and the consumer, it must be 

6 delayed for several years. Each facility must be 

7 evaluated independently. Reasonable timetables 

8 and emission reduction goals must be set. What 

9 we are doing is not okay. We can do better, we 

10 will do better. Do not demonize this natural 

11 resource due to our society's misuse. 

12 In conclusion, readily available, 

13 abundant, and inexpensive, anthracite, more 

14 commonly known as coal. Ensures our independence 

15 from foreign energy sources and provides well16 paying jobs for thousands of skilled American 

17 workers.

18 Thank you for your time. We'll keep the 

19 lights on for you. 

20 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Fross.

21 Ms. Kresbsbach?

22 MS. KREBSBACH: My name is Abby 

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1 Krebsbach. I'm the environment director from 

2 Montana Dakota Utilities Company. We appreciate 

3 EPA adding a day in Denver to hear comments on 

4 this rule. 

5 Our company generates, transmits and 

6 distributes electricity to customers in North 

7 Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming. Our 

8 company's most significant concerns are in 

9 regards to errors in building blocks one and two, 

10 but we also have concerns with blocks three and 

11 four.

12 In building block one, EPA assumes a 6 

13 percent emission rate improvement across all 

14 coal-fired power plants for implementing future 

15 efficiency improvement projects.

16 Many of the projects the EPA cites in the 

17 rule have already been done or are being done on 

18 a routine basis at existing power plants.

19 EPA acknowledges that some of these 

20 projects have already occurred, but doesn't 

21 factor those reductions into the emissions 

22 targets. Credit should be given for having 

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1 already completed these projects and not hold 

2 states and utilities to more stringent, 

3 unachievable emission rate target that does not 

4 represent the best system of emission reduction. 

5 Also EPA overlooks the fact that 

6 pollution control installation such as selective 

7 catalytic production for regional haze compliance 

8 will add significant station service which 

9 negatively impacts heat rates. For instance our 

10 coal and big stone plants in South Dakota is 

11 installing controls for regional haze and has 

12 already made efficiency improvements mentioned in 

13 the rule but will not be able to achieve a 6 

14 percent heat rate improvement. This must be 

15 factored in.

16 Also we are coal in our Wygen Three in 

17 Wyoming which came on line in 2010, a newer power 

18 plant. Even though that plant was only in 

19 operation for two years as of 2012, which is the 

20 baseline EPA uses for emissions reductions, the 

21 EPA still assumes that Wygen Three will achieve a 

22 6 percent emission reduction from its 2012 

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1 emission rate, that just doesn't make sense to 

2 us. EPA should exclude newer plants from block 

3 one productions.

4 In building block two, EPA assumes that 

5 existing natural gas combined cycles will be 

6 redispatched to a 70 percent capacity factor with 

7 a corresponding reduction in generation from coal 

8 plants.

9 In South Dakota there is one coal-fired 

10 power plant, Big Stone plant, and there is one 

11 natural gas combined cycle, deer creek station. 

12 Big Stone represents a significant base load 

13 resource capacity for all of its coal owners' 

14 customer of which MDU is one of those co-owners. 

15 Deer Creek was installed by Basin Electric 

16 Cooperative for that company's own unique load 

17 and customer demand and was never meant to meet a 

18 load reduction from Big Stone. These plats are 

19 committed and dispatched by two separate regional 

20 transmission organizations. We are not aware of 

21 any way to redispatch these units. In a way that 

22 will not compromise the ability for each company 

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1 and transmission operator to reliably serve load.

2 With Deer Creek beginning operation in 

3 late 2012 and having a 1 percent capacity factor, 

4 EPA's block two redispatch methodology has the 

5 effective backing down Big Stone plant, the only 

6 coal-fired plant in the state to a 23 percent 

7 capacity factor. 

8 Since Big Stone's minimum operating load 

9 is about 40 percent maximum output, the 23 

10 percent capacity factor envisioned by EPA would 

11 require the unit to be offline at least half the 

12 year, unable to serve the energy needs for our 

13 customers.

14 Also, co-owners of Big Stone are 

15 investing near $400 million in the regional haze 

16 pollution controls. The redispatch assumption is 

17 not feasible in this case and is expected to 

18 result in required replacement generation. 

19 Effectively stranding this asset, including the 

20 investment of regional haze controls. 

21 Due to this projected outcome, we believe 

22 that the remaining useful life of the unit has 

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1 not been considered. For these reasons building 

2 block two should be eliminated from South 

3 Dakota's target.

4 Block two as well as block three, 

5 renewable generation requirements, and block 

6 four, energy efficiency program requirements are 

7 outside the fence measures. We expect EPA to 

8 encounter legal challenges by including these 

9 blocks as best system of emission reductions. We 

10 believe EPA hasn't considered the required cost 

11 to replace existing renewable generation 

12 facilities over time to comply with block three 

13 targets ongoing. We expect legal challenges 

14 around Clean Air Act enforceability of reductions 

15 under these blocks as well as with multi-state 

16 compacts that are expected to be needed for 

17 regional plans to be developed.

18 We also expect that the states will find 

19 it difficult to accept enforcement risk under the 

20 clean air act as they consider relying on 

21 emissions reductions from their renewable 

22 portfolio standards, energy efficiency programs, 

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1 building codes and redispatch. 

2 We plan to submit written comments by 

3 October 16th, and I thank you for your time. 

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Krebsbach. Do 

5 you mind spelling your name for the court 

6 reporter?

7 MS. KREBSBACH: Yeah, I did that at the 

8 beginning. 

9 MS. SUTIN: Oh, you did. I'm sorry. I 

10 missed it. I apologize.

11 Next if we can have Percy Deal and 

12 Elizabeth Literal.

13 Mr. Deal, you'll go first.

14 MR. DEAL: Thank you. My name is Percey 

15 Deal. I'm a member of an organization -- a non16 profit organization. [Indiscernible] Beautiful 

17 water calling. I'm going to be turning 65 next 

18 month. I'm retired. I live in Black Mesa Region 

19 at the Navajo Reservation about 15 miles south of 

20 Peabody Coal Mine. 

21 I'm here to express my full support for 

22 the clean power plan and I urge you to do more. 

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1 As designated by EPA in response to the 

2 president's climate action plan for the country.

3 For this plan to work everyone must 

4 participate, including the Navajo nation.

5 I want to tell you about my parents' 

6 world prior to the arrival of Peabody and Navajo 

7 generating stations. 

8 My dad used to tell us about there being 

9 plenty of clean water, unpolluted air, abundance 

10 in all the plants and herbs for food and 

11 medicine. My community -- the community my 

12 parents grew up in were healthy. Disease and 

13 illness were rare. I remember my parents -- my 

14 mother's garden where she grew corn, squash, 

15 melon, potatoes, beans. Additionally, my parents 

16 had livestock. All of this was enough to provide 

17 my parents and the seven children they raised in 

18 2004 at the age of 107 months [sic] my dad passed 

19 on. My mother died at the age of 93. My 

20 parents' self-sufficiency lifestyle provided us 

21 with healthy upbringing. 

22 Now, due to depletion of an aquifer, less 

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1 rainfall due to climate change, our culture, 

2 self-sufficiency has been taken away and 

3 dependence -- dependency on public aid has 

4 resulted. The change is a direct result of 

5 energy extraction industry established within our 

6 company.

7 The Navajo Reservation is located in the 

8 Four Corners area. It is surrounded by seven 

9 power plants and mines, two of the seven are on 

10 Navajo land. Now, imagine seven old clunkers 

11 next to your residence breathing air. Or imagine 

12 breathing in hazardous fumes 24/7 for 50 years. 

13 All of these plants are next to major rivers 

14 presenting a dangerous and contaminant situation.

15 I understand that EPA is considering the 

16 laying -- the implementation of carbon pollution 

17 reduction for the Navajo Reservation for several 

18 more years. I want to stress that Navajo land is 

19 already heavily polluted from the number of coal 

20 fossil industry we are experiencing adverse 

21 effects of climate change and depleting of our 

22 precious aquifer.

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1 We see haze in our sky on daily basis. 

2 The worsening of our environment is contributing 

3 respiratory diseases for the young and old.

4 This morning there was some discussion 

5 about the rising costs of electricity. Imagine 

6 the rising costs of the health costs. Yet EPA 

7 wants to delay clean power on Navajo.

8 Additionally our congresswoman from the 

9 state of Arizona has introduced a legislation to 

10 waive 15 federal and state environmental policy 

11 on Navajo in the name of development. And I 

12 brought you a copy and I would urge the president 

13 of the United States if it gets to his desk to 

14 veto this legislation. If the federal government 

15 allows the delay of clean power and waive policy 

16 for Navajo, you will put us at the same level as 

17 China where the is no policy and regulation to 

18 control pollution level within and surrounding 

19 the Navajo there are several national state, and 

20 tribal parks that draws millions of tourists from 

21 all over the world, Grand Canyon, Mylet Valley, 

22 Canyon at the Shay, Navajo National Park, Rainbow 

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1 Bridge and many others are located near and on 

2 the Navajo Reservation. Local government and 

3 businesses depend on these parks while you 

4 Environmental Protection Agency, you are the 

5 Environmental Protection Agency, your recent 

6 decision for NGS and bark control is not 

7 protecting the Navajo. While the pollution hays 

8 is being addressed for national park, it is 

9 delayed on Navajo. This is simply another 

10 environmental injustice that our people and our 

11 air is not safeguarded.

12 The Navajo nation should be pursuing 

13 alternative energy with full support under 

14 federal government instead of allowing the Navajo 

15 to go in the opposite direction. Why is there a 

16 double standard? Let's operate on one standard 

17 including the Navajo nation.

18 I want EPA to help me live in the world 

19 like my dad. I want to enjoy breathing in clean 

20 air, drinking good water free of contaminants, 

21 and I want my children and grandchildren to be 

22 part of the healthy community.

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1 As native American --

2 MS. SUTIN: Mr. --

3 MR. DEAL: -- we are taught to respect 

4 our mother earth, our father the sun, air, water, 

5 are the most precious resources on earth. Our 

6 belief considers that all living creatures are 

7 our brothers. Life on earth is like a spider 

8 web, when one web is damaged, it destroys all. 

9 Let us all stop this destruction. May the great 

10 spirit be with you and guide you, thank you. 

11 Also attached to the statement is a photo of my 

12 dad, a photo of my mother holding the corn, and 

13 also the Four Corners area showing the various 

14 plants and finally the final photo is my family 

15 including an infant that we were fortunate to 

16 receive recently in the cradle and I'm speaking 

17 on behalf of all the [indiscernible]. Thank you.

18 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Deal.

19 Go ahead, Ms. Literal.

20 MS. LITERAL: Hi, my name is Liz Literal. 

21 I am currently a graduate student at the 

22 University of Denver and I am in full support of 

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1 the clean power plan in addition to further 

2 action to combat manmade climate change. 

3 In undergraduate studies I studied 

4 geology and many geologists currently think that 

5 we are in the anthropogenic period of geologic 

6 time, meaning that humans are creating climate 

7 change. And I have a short, short little thing 

8 here.

9 So that vanishing white man is a prophecy 

10 of the Hopi and it says that if we disrespect 

11 mother earth in these ways of extracting oil and 

12 gas and coal and all of these resources that 

13 pollute our water and pollute our are then we are 

14 not going to exist anymore. And we are going to 

15 leave a wake of destruction in everyone else's 

16 midst.

17 So the only option is to protect our air 

18 and our environment. The greater good is to have 

19 clean air which is connected to water and 

20 everything else in our environment. This is our 

21 life -- these are our lives that we're talking 

22 about and we cannot sacrifice that for money or 

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1 anything else. 

2 Thank you.

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Literal.

4 Next if we can have Doug Grandt and 

5 Brenton Dolf. Is Brenton Dolf here?

6 Go ahead, Mr. Grandt.

7 MR. GRANDT: Set my timer here. Thank 

8 you for having this forum. I drove her with my 

9 friend from Lincoln, Nebraska. I thought it was 

10 important to be here instead of just submitting a 

11 written testimony. I will e-mail you my 

12 testimony. 

13 I've heard a lot of very myopic 

14 statements here. As an engineer and scientist 

15 having been trained as an industrial engineer and 

16 petroleum engineer, I've always used the 

17 scientific method and I've always taken a global 

18 long view of holistic and system approach. 

19 Let me just tell you a little bit about 

20 my career, I'm retired. In 1970 I started 

21 working for probably the world's largest and most 

22 profitable oil company, doing computer 

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1 simulations of an oil reservoir up in Alaska 

2 called Prudhoe Bay. Throughout my career -- by 

3 the way, that job lasted about two years when I 

4 realized I really wasn't an oil man. 

5 And I spent the next several years doing 

6 corporate planning and industrial engineering for 

7 another very profitable and very large ocean 

8 transportation cargo company. My job was to 

9 maximize profits. That career lasted about 34 

10 years, various different management jobs. And I 

11 had a wake-up call ten years ago and I decided to 

12 take my skills and use those skills to maximize 

13 life, to protect life, to protect humanity.

14 And long story short, I ended up working 

15 for the California Environmental Protection 

16 Agency in the Air Resources Board, initially 

17 reducing diesel pollution from buses and boats in 

18 harbors and ultimately implementing the 

19 California Global Warming Solutions Act of 2006. 

20 Arnold Schwarzenegger, legacy.

21 I retired on the first day of spring two 

22 years ago. And I'm in retirement, and I became 

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1 basically a full-time activist and I'm associated 

2 with a lot of different groups, too numerous to 

3 mention, but they include Farsas Blockade, 

4 Susan's Planet Lobby, Climate Reality Project, 

5 and many others.

6 So I want to thank you, EPA, and I want 

7 to thank President Obama for taking the 

8 initiative in this proposed rule. Up to this 

9 point our government, namely our Congress has so 

10 far failed us citizens in this regard. But I 

11 applaud the clean power plan proposed rule. I 

12 endorse it. However, I have one reservation and 

13 that shortcoming, I have a solution I'm going to 

14 discuss in a second, but I'm going to invoke the 

15 virtual presence of free respected authorities, 

16 climate authorities, Dr. James Hanson who I met 

17 on April 15th, 2008; Dr. Rajendra Pachauri who I 

18 met on June 27th, 2008; and George Woodwell, who 

19 I met on May 15th. Their messages are similar 

20 when it comes down to the urgency of beginning 

21 reducing greenhouse gases and the emissions 

22 thereof quickly. Quickly. Urgency.

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1 The proposed rule commits us to, I think, 

2 a disastrous timeframe in that it does not 

3 consider the leakage of methane -- and I'm not 

4 sure that it includes the short-term climate 

5 forcing of methane. I've looked through Appendix 

6 3 at length and I cannot find anything that 

7 definitively mentions leakage or the short term 

8 global forcing. 

9 In the section 6 of the main document, 

10 the last paragraph of 6(c)(2)(a) there are two 

11 mentions of -- two of the seven mentions in the 

12 document and I'm going to read just very quickly. 

13 "This analysis indicated that any net impacts 

14 from methane emissions are likely to small 

15 compared to the CO2 emissions reduction impacts 

16 of shifting power generation from coal-fired 

17 steam EGU to NGCC units." It doesn't appear that 

18 the state of the science in terms of leakage of 

19 methane from gas wells has been incorporated.

20 I want to very quickly quote Dr. Pachauri 

21 who said to me on June 27th "hat we must begin 

22 reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 2012." 

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1 We're past that time. 

2 On May 15th, 2009, Dr. Woodwell told me, 

3 "We must abandon our reliance on the burning of 

4 carbon-based fuels. We are poisoning the 

5 planet."

6 And on December 13th, it looks like I've 

7 run out of time, I'll just very quickly read. 

8 Dr. Hanson said in a document that they published 

9 that "The current emissions rate would need to 

10 decrease 6 percent per year, storage in the 

11 biosphere and soil, reforestation and improved 

12 agriculture and forestry practices are necessary 

13 to help bring down CO2. We need to stabilize 

14 human-made non-CO2 climate forcings and we need 

15 to phase out gas and oil."

16 I have a chart that I will include that 

17 shows what the German advisory council on global 

18 climate says we need to do. This supports Dr. 

19 Hanson. We need to start reducing now and we 

20 need to start reducing quickly. Thank you.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Grandt.

22 Do you mind spelling your last name for 

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1 the Court reporter.

2 MR. GRANDT: G-r-a-n-d-t.

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Did Brenton Dolf 

4 come into the room? Mr. Dolf and Greg Wilson, if 

5 you'll come up? I'm sorry, George Wilson. I 

6 apologize. 

7 Mr. Dolf, you'll go first. 

8 MR. DOLF: Okay. I'm a child of the 

9 millennium. I've grown up pretty much my whole 

10 life here in Colorado. I've grown up in Denver, 

11 I am used to pretty much the pollution all around 

12 us all the time. I've grown up with the -- as 

13 pretty much being the norm, not being informed to 

14 anyone that this is how it is and this is how it 

15 will stay. That's always been a problem to me. 

16 That nothing out there can be informed to our 

17 children. Our children nowadays are being told 

18 that Freddie the Friendly Fracasaurus is good, 

19 it's natural. I find that offensive as a person 

20 that believes in global warming. 

21 My mom works for a school. She's a 

22 teacher. And she told me that they had a guy 

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1 coming in pro-fracking, teaching the children 

2 that they -- that fracking was okay. That it's 

3 not polluting our air, that it's not causing 

4 earthquakes to pretty much collapse the ground 

5 and as oil companies call it, settling. This is 

6 a very disturbing issue to me. 

7 If our children are our destiny, then 

8 what are we teaching them? Where are they going 

9 to take our world if they're misinformed? 

10 They're going to drive it right into the ground.

11 And I appreciate you guys with this 

12 carbon act, but I honestly think that this is not 

13 even close to the beginning of what you guys can 

14 and will do.

15 I believe that the petitions that are 

16 going out there, I was a participant in '88 and 

17 '89 of getting that passed. They were worded 

18 very, very vaguely despite how you want to say 

19 it, they were put well just like the carbon 

20 emissions act how it said that they were put, it 

21 would push back all new by 30 percent and you got 

22 to come back and do another act that said you 

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1 would push back existing, that's what they're 

2 doing for the fracking. It would push back 

3 fracking 2,000 feet, that's all new ones. They 

4 said quote/unquote, "if not misinforming that it 

5 would push them back by 70 percent of those." 

6 That's not true. 

7 I think that what we're doing right now 

8 is we're just watching it happen. All the money 

9 that we're putting out there to do tests and 

10 stuff like that, we already see where our world's 

11 at. We see what the damage has caused. Stop 

12 testing it, do something about it, turn it around 

13 and be more apt to reach out for the other 

14 renewable energies because I've sat and talked 

15 with people, many people, that have said that 

16 they know of other energies out there.

17 Australia is doing fusion right now. 

18 It's called star scientific. They're replacing 

19 all coal-fired power plants with this. I mean, 

20 if there's other things out there, we need to 

21 start looking for it. I mean, what happened to 

22 the Taurus project? Taurus project just throw 

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1 that out there. There's a combustion person that 

2 I talked to in Greeley, he said that he came and 

3 talked to you guys. You guys just looked at him 

4 like he was crazy. And I want to ask that with 

5 you guys being the EPA to -- because I know that 

6 you guys are doing a good job, but I want to see 

7 where the progress is at. Like, I would like to 

8 see if you guys put something in print, or if you 

9 get a ballot passed, I want to see what systems 

10 out there that are building that's renewable. I 

11 want to see proof of that. Thank you.

12 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Dolf. I have 

13 a clarifying question for you.

14 MR. DOLF: Yeah.

15 MS. SUTIN: You mentioned petitions that 

16 you were involved in, can you just be a little 

17 bit more specific about what those were so we 

18 know?

19 MR. DOLF: '88 and '89, '88 was an 

20 environmental bill, it was saying that us as 

21 Coloradoans have the right to clean air and clean 

22 water and that the state or local governments 

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1 cannot take that right away from us. However, 

2 like they had a law that was lower than ours 

3 then, they would make that all the more 

4 restrictive so that they couldn't destroy clean 

5 air, the water, the nature or scenic values. And 

6 then the second one was '89, that one was for 

7 pushback all new fracking wells 2,000 feet unless 

8 -- which is only a quarter of a mile -- so that's 

9 pretty much giving oil companies the permission 

10 to frack on land a quarter of a mile when they go 

11 over 3,000 feet, that's, you know, we're giving 

12 them an extra thousand feet to go under your 

13 house and pass.

14 MS. SUTIN: Great. Thank you. That's 

15 very helpful.

16 MR. DOLF: Yeah, thank you.

17 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Wilson?

18 MR. WILSON: Good morning. My name is 

19 George Wilson, W-i-l-s-o-n. I'm a senior 

20 assistant business manager for the International 

21 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 111 here 

22 in Denver. I have a satellite office over in the 

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1 Craig area on the western slope. That valley 

2 there is mostly living on the fact that they 

3 three coal mines and two power plants or else 

4 37,000 people would be out of work. 

5 Myself and other members of Local 111 are 

6 very worried about the effects of the EPA's 

7 proposed clean power plant on electricity prices, 

8 reliability and jobs. Here in Colorado we have 

9 been painfully aware of what happens when an 

10 electricity provider moves away from inexpensive, 

11 coal-generated power too quickly. So our 

12 experience is real, a real live test case and I 

13 urge the EPA to pay attention to this. As a 

14 result of Colorado's renewable portfolio 

15 standards, the state is moving away from coal and 

16 towards natural gas and renewables. Some parts 

17 of the state, Pueblo, in particular have been --

18 I've seen electric prices rise 26 percent so far. 

19 That may not seem like a problem to wealthier 

20 parts of the state, but in Pueblo where the 

21 poverty rate is at 18.1 percent, the pain for 

22 those people is very real. 

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1 An article that appeared just last week 

2 in the Washington Post entitled how not to shut 

3 down coal plants, speaks to the pain of Sharon 

4 Garcia, who is a single mother in Pueblo and 

5 operates a day care there and her troubles and 

6 problems with trying to pay her electric bills.

7 Her electric provider, Black Hills 

8 Energy, chose to replace nearly all of its 

9 inexpensive coal generation with gas over a short 

10 period of time. The result was 26 percent 

11 increase in electric rates with more to come with 

12 the addition of another gas peaking unit that 

13 they want to build and they'll pass that cost 

14 right on to the consumers down there also.

15 Local 111 is not the only group who is 

16 worried about the high cost of switching to 

17 mostly one fuel in this country. Last week IHS 

18 Incorporated, an industry data custom software 

19 and consulting service company released a study 

20 called the value of U.S. power supply diversity. 

21 In a nutshell the report said, "It's not prudent 

22 to put all your eggs in one basket. The least 

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1 inexpensive, most reliable electricity delivery 

2 system is one that uses a diverse mixture of 

3 fuels." Unfortunately the clean power plan 

4 openly calls for the use of more natural gas 

5 generation at the expense of coal. EPA would be 

6 wise to read this. It is a 56-page report, and 

7 consider the advice of IHS.

8 So how much coal generation will the 

9 clean power plan close? The EPA's own members 

10 state that 41 to 49,000 megawatts of coal will be 

11 closed. Also the mercury and air toxic standards 

12 which spell MATS, is expected to close

13 approximately 56,000 megawatts of coal 

14 generation. Combined, the clean power plan and 

15 MATS will close approximately 40 percent of 

16 today's coal fleet, leading to a loss of fuel 

17 diversity, massive increases of consumer prices, 

18 less reliability and security of electrical grid 

19 and the loss of approximately 400,000 jobs.

20 As for all the trouble, the loss of jobs, 

21 the loss of fuel diversity, increase in prices, 

22 and the pain felt like people like Sharon Garcia, 

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1 you would think that the clean power plan would 

2 result in meaningful reductions in U.S. CO2 

3 emissions. Unfortunately, our members and the 

4 Coloradoans would be very disappointed with the 

5 clean power plan to have almost no impact on CO2 

6 emissions that contribute to global climate 

7 change. 

8 There's a graph included in my testimony 

9 and I turned these into the registration, shows 

10 the problem is not with the United States, whose 

11 CO2 emissions have been flat since 1990, but 

12 rather the rest of the world whose CO2 emissions 

13 have risen approximately 44 percent in the last 

14 24 years. 

15 It is not possible for the United States 

16 to solve the world's global warming problems on 

17 its own. Any meaningful attempt to address 

18 global greenhouse gas emissions must incorporate 

19 American's trading partners, China and India in 

20 particular since they have no emissions controls 

21 on any of their coal generating stations. 

22 The EPA and the administration should 

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1 return to the drawing board and rethink the clean 

2 power plan. The United States cannot afford the 

3 loss of of fuel diversity, increased prices, the 

4 threat of reliability of the electric grid or the 

5 job losses that will be caused by the clean power 

6 plan.

7 Thank you. 

8 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Wilson.

9 MR. WILSON: And they have the graph.

10 MS. SUTIN: Great. Thank you. 

11 Next if we can have Katy Raitz, and Matt 

12 Appelbaum. 

13 MS. RAITZ: My last name is spelled R-a14 i-t-z. Thank you so much for hosting this 

15 hearing today and thank you for giving me the 

16 opportunity to come out and speak as a member of 

17 the community and as a college student. 

18 So I went to college knowing that I 

19 wanted to work on social justice. I majored in 

20 gender studies and in ethnic studies because I 

21 wanted to help get rid of sexism in our community 

22 and racism. And that's still so important to me. 

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1 But I never considered myself an 

2 environmentalist. I always thought that fighting 

3 for the environment was for people that had the 

4 privilege to not deal with injustice in their 

5 everyday lives and that people needed solutions 

6 in the here and now. But then I met a person 

7 named Risalla Hahn. Risalla is a photographer, 

8 activist, geologist, and aquaponic social 

9 entrepreneur. And he's from Bangladesh. 

10 Risalla and I lived together at a social 

11 entrepreneurship incubator and through him I 

12 realized how completely inextricable 

13 environmental justice and social justice are. 

14 Risalla and ten million other members of 

15 his community are at risk of being flooded by 

16 rising sea levels within the next 20 to 30 years. 

17 Risalla along with the other billions of members 

18 of our global population, the global south and 

19 the poorest people in our community are the ones 

20 that are most devastatingly and most immediately 

21 impacted by climate change. And that is what 

22 made me act. That's what made me realize that 

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1 I'm an environmentalist and that I have a duty to 

2 work on climate change just as I have a duty to 

3 work on injustices that we see in our regular 

4 social interactions. They're not inextricable. 

5 They're late

6 But then I started thinking about it. 

7 And I'm from Colorado Springs, and while I was 

8 out of town, the Waldo Canyon fire happened. And 

9 then the next year the Black Forest fire 

10 happened. And I was so lucky to be spared. And 

11 though my friends lost houses in both of those 

12 fires, my family was fine. We didn't lose 

13 anything. And we were able to support our 

14 friends in their time of need. 

15 And then last year while I was living in 

16 Boulder, Colorado, we experienced the 500-year 

17 flood. And I was really lucky to be living 

18 really high up in the foothills. So I didn't 

19 experience any flooding. I was lucky. And I saw 

20 the devastation all around my community. Some of 

21 the most affluent people in our state were 

22 really, really negatively impacted by that flood 

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1 and lost a lot, and went through a lot of 

2 emotional trauma.

3 And I work at a high school in Lafayette, 

4 Colorado, Centaras High School. And two students 

5 that graduated year before that died in that 

6 flood. So I started to realize that it's not 

7 even just the people out far away from the 

8 communities that I am so privileged to get to 

9 live in, but it's even the people that we think 

10 of ourselves as relatively insulated from social 

11 and environmental injustice. We're not -- and so 

12 what I'm here today to talk about is how lucky 

13 can we be? How lucky can I be? I'm already in a 

14 really insulated privileged position in our 

15 society and still I've seen so many people right 

16 around me be so devastated by climate change. So 

17 I'm thanking you here today for the work that you 

18 all at the EPA have done in proposing these 

19 standards, urging you to move forward and take 

20 the next step and also asking you to just 

21 remember the public's good and that we are all at 

22 risk of being hurt by climate change and 

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1 therefore we must all be in this together. 

2 Thank you. 

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you.

4 Mr. Appelbaum?

5 MR. APPELBAUM: Yes, thank you. I'm 

6 Matthew Appelbaum. I'm the Mayor of the City of 

7 Boulder, Colorado. 

8 I'd like to focus my comments on how 

9 climate change is impacting cities both locally 

10 and around the country and what we as people who 

11 are running those cities are trying to do about 

12 it, and the costs we are incurring both now and 

13 in the future. 

14 So Boulder, as you know, suffered a 

15 serious flood event last year running into the 

16 tune tens of millions of dollars in public and 

17 private damage. The surrounding areas, the 

18 damage was in the hundreds of millions of 

19 dollars. Prior to that there were serious fires 

20 to the west of us, and prior to that drought 

21 events. We expect all three of those to 

22 continue. We expect all of them to be of greater 

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1 severity in the future and of more frequency in 

2 the future. That is what the science tells us, 

3 there is no doubt that that is the case. 

4 Cities like ours are really front and 

5 center in this issue. Cities are the closest to 

6 the people and the ones that have to deal with 

7 the implications the impacts. It is not just 

8 costs. There are all sorts of social issues 

9 involved. There are very practical issues 

10 involved, logistical issues involved. 

11 Boulder has long been working on climate 

12 change, mitigation and adaptation techniques for 

13 as long as I can remember. We were one of the 

14 leaders in that. We have put our money where our 

15 mouths are. We have spent tens of millions of 

16 dollars in various ways in order to try to 

17 mitigate the impacts and to try to better adapt 

18 and become more resilient. In fact, we were 

19 recognized as such by the Rockefeller Foundation 

20 being named one of the 100 resilient cities 

21 across the entire world recently.

22 Our citizens were the first, and I 

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1 believe only to impose upon themselves a carbon 

2 tax, a very small tax, not meant to change 

3 behaviors, but meant to give us some money in 

4 order to start working on some of these issues. 

5 They then agreed to tax themselves even more so 

6 that we could look at municipalizing our electric 

7 power system. And that has relevance because one 

8 of the things that drove us to that, and that's a 

9 pretty extreme concept was taking a look at what 

10 is practical and what really makes a difference 

11 in mitigation efforts.

12 And so we looked at all the efforts we 

13 could do, energy efficiency, and transportation, 

14 and we're leaders in that, we've done a great 

15 job, we have many programs that have been 

16 recognized nationwide, and yet they don't move 

17 the needle far enough. And the reason they don't 

18 is because at least in Boulder and this is true 

19 in many communities, most of our greenhouse gas 

20 emissions come from electric use and most of our 

21 electric power comes from burning coal from our 

22 investor-owned utility. And unless and until we 

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1 deal with that, we can't make nearly enough of a 

2 difference. We'll do everything we can, I assure 

3 you, we will spend lots of money. But we can't 

4 make enough of a difference. And so at least in 

5 Colorado our options are limited to really one, 

6 which is to try to escape from the current 

7 regulatory system, go it on our own and obtain 

8 power from the market. 

9 And I think it's important to note, 

10 because a lot of economic issues have been 

11 raised, yes, there will be some economic 

12 disruption as we move forward with reducing our 

13 reliance on fossil fuels, and particularly coal.

14 But there is also huge opportunity for 

15 economic benefits as well. And we see that and 

16 that was one of the arguments we made that our 

17 voters agreed with; that there is huge economic 

18 opportunity. 

19 I would also say that the economic 

20 disruption, painful though it may be in some 

21 places, is dwarfed massively by the costs of 

22 climate change and the impacts of them.

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1 The other thing I want to say, I see my 

2 time is almost up, is at the national level I 

3 serve in the National League of Cities Policy 

4 Committee on Energy, Environment and Natural 

5 Resources, and in fact, I chaired that committee 

6 last year. So last year we began to look as a 

7 national organization at in fact this very issue, 

8 climate change, adaptation and mitigation and 

9 we're continuing that investigation this year. 

10 And what we discovered is that cities all over 

11 the country are realizing just how critical an 

12 issue this is. This transcends politics. That 

13 surprised me a little bit. Cities in states that 

14 are not noted for their, let's say, progressive 

15 stands on this issue were every bit as concerned, 

16 every bit as interested, every bit as active, 

17 every bit out there spending money on mitigation 

18 strategies, out there spending money on 

19 adaptations and strategies, out there working on 

20 becoming more resilient communities because they 

21 understand what's coming.

22 So please proceed. This is frankly way 

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1 too little, way too late, but at this point 

2 everything we do is way too little and way too 

3 late. Nonetheless, we have to start somewhere. 

4 Please continue with this process. Please 

5 continue with this plan, if anything, make it 

6 more powerful, make it a stronger statement in 

7 how we're going to approach the most important 

8 challenge we face for the next -- well, for as 

9 long as we can foresee, I think. Thanks so much.

10 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Appelbaum. Do 

11 you mind spelling your name for the court 

12 reporter.

13 MR. APPELBAUM: Sure, it's Appelbaum is 

14 A-p-p-e-l-b as in boy a-u-m. Thank you. 

15 MS. SUTIN: Thank you.

16 Next if we can have Katy Laughlin 

17 Reynolds and Ellen Plane. Ms. Laughlin-Reynolds. 

18 That's you.

19 MS. LAUGHLIN-REYNOLDS: Do you want me to 

20 spell the last name?

21 MS. SUTIN: Please?

22 MS. LAUGHLIN-REYNOLDS: It's L-a-u-g-h-lOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

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1 i-n hyphen R-e-y-n-o-l-d-s.

2 So, good afternoon, my name is Katy 

3 Laughlin-Reynolds. Just want to start by saying 

4 thank you for taking the time to hear our public 

5 testimonies regarding the clean power plan. It 

6 is now abundantly clear that global warming has 

7 serious implications, not just for the 

8 environment, but for our health. These health 

9 implications are especially serious for children.

10 As an educator and a concerned citizen, I 

11 care very much about the health and well-being of 

12 children now and in the future.

13 I worry that because carbon emissions are 

14 currently unregulated in our nation, children 

15 will continue to be directly affected by global 

16 warming pollution, especially children who suffer 

17 from asthma and other respiratory-related 

18 illnesses.

19 Our children deserve to breathe clean 

20 healthy air. Unfortunately children with 

21 respiratory illnesses aren't the only people at 

22 risk. As severe weather events like extreme heat 

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1 and drought continue to become that norm due to 

2 global warming and pollution, children and the 

3 elderly are more susceptible to heat-related 

4 illnesses such as dehydration, heat stroke, and 

5 even death.

6 Medical science is telling us that the 

7 health of our communities is already being 

8 impacted by climate change. Not something we 

9 have the power to change. To me it's 

10 irresponsible to have the ability to solve this 

11 issue now and to not take immediate action.

12 I am confident that we can cut carbon 

13 emissions that cause global warming pollution by 

14 implementing the clean power plan and I am 

15 certain this plan will positively impact the 

16 health of our environment and will better the 

17 future for our nation's children.

18 In my hour of hearing testimonies here 

19 this morning, I've heard a lot of talk about 

20 money and I understand that we're a money21 oriented society, but it is hard, if not 

22 impossible, to put a price on our children's 

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1 health. After all, our children are our future 

2 and their health is priceless. 

3 Again, thank you for your time.

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you.

5 Ms. Plane?

6 MS. PLANE: My name is Ellen Plane. My 

7 last name is spelled P-l-a-n-e. 

8 My name is Ellen Plane and I am a 

9 supporter of the clean power plan. Many people 

10 who testify here will enumerate the various 

11 reasons why the clean power plan is essential for 

12 the health and safety of people here in Colorado 

13 and across the United States. I wholeheartedly 

14 agree that these are important reasons to clean 

15 up our coal-fired power plants. But the effects 

16 of carbon pollution and climate change are not 

17 only being felt here. They are felt around the 

18 world.

19 American's dirtiest coal-fired power 

20 plants while allowing American's to use far more 

21 energy than we need to live, are forcing the 

22 externalities of our lifestyle on people in 

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1 developing nations. These people are totally 

2 unprepared to deal with rising sea level and more 

3 intense storm events. By burning coal 

4 inefficiently here, we are simply sending the 

5 true cost of our energy abroad, placing it 

6 squarely on the shoulders of people who have very 

7 little responsibility for global climate change. 

8 As a global leader we must assume the 

9 responsibility for our carbon and our power 

10 plants. The proposed clean power plan is a great 

11 step in the right direction. 

12 The clean power plan has the ability not 

13 only to positively impact humans around the 

14 world, but ecosystems as well.

15 I am a college student and biology major 

16 and I have spent the last three years studying 

17 the effects of climate change on earth's 

18 ecosystems. I am truly alarmed that rising 

19 global temperatures as well as habitat 

20 destruction are rapidly accelerating rates of 

21 species' extinction worldwide. 

22 Climate change caused by the reckless 

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1 burning of fossil fuels is directly contributing 

2 to this trend and we cannot continue to live this 

3 way while thousands of species go extinct each 

4 year. 

5 Biodiversity, while valuable on its own, 

6 is also valuable to us for it provides us with 

7 ecosystem services like water purification, 

8 nutrient cycling and protection for extreme 

9 weather events. 

10 As a diver I've had the opportunity to 

11 see first-hand what carbon pollution in the 

12 atmosphere is doing to one of the most 

13 biologically rich ecosystems on earth, the coral 

14 reefs. According to a number of ecological 

15 studies when atmospheric CO2 levels reach 480 

16 parts per million coral reefs can no longer form 

17 calcium carbonate because the pH of the ocean is 

18 too low. This means a loss not only of coral 

19 species, but of thousands of other species that 

20 rely on coral reefs to survive. 

21 If we continue to burn coal and fossil 

22 fuels without regulation, this carbon dioxide 

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1 threshold will be reached far too soon.

2 Passing the clean power plan and future 

3 regulations like it is the best way to try to 

4 prolong the lives our coral reefs.

5 The most amazing things that I ever had 

6 an opportunity to see have been under water and I 

7 want my children to be able to see them too.

8 We are presented with an opportunity to 

9 not only help ourselves, but help the other 

10 people, plants, and animals that we have the 

11 honor of sharing this planet with. There is 

12 ample evidence that the jobs that are dependent 

13 on fossil fuels and old power production 

14 technologies are not the high quality jobs that 

15 the new energy economy can provide.

16 Yes, the government needs to provide 

17 cleaning opportunities and incentives to help 

18 impacted community adjust to the economics of new 

19 technologies. But the cost of continuing to 

20 pollute are far higher than the cost of managing 

21 these impacts on communities.

22 Regulating emissions from existing power 

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1 plants is the most efficient way to tackle the 

2 threat of climate change. We can no longer 

3 continue burning coal, business as usual, while 

4 populations are displaced by rising sea levels 

5 and earth's coral reefs crumble away.

6 America's leaders should take 

7 responsibility for out contributions to global 

8 climate change by supporting the clean power 

9 plan. Thank you.

10 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Plane. You 

11 can both be seated.

12 Next if we can have Robert Castilino and 

13 Kaitlyn Seeley. Mr. Castilino? Okay. Go ahead, 

14 Ms. Seeley.

15 MS. SEELEY: Hi, my name is Kaitlyn 

16 Seeley. Thank you for taking some time today to 

17 talk to us about the clean power plan. 

18 I was born and raised in Colorado, grew 

19 up spending winters skiing and snowboarding in El 

20 Dora and Winter Park. Spent summers hiking and 

21 camping. And after leaving the state for a few 

22 years, to realize just how great it was, moved 

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1 back here about three years ago to settle down 

2 and live here for the rest of my life, I hope.\

3 And then last summer when we had such 

4 extreme fires going on throughout that state, and 

5 then almost a year ago now, actually the say of 

6 my wedding, when we had our extreme flooding that 

7 started. I started to realize that the life that 

8 I experienced growing up here in Colorado and the 

9 natural resources that I had come to appreciate 

10 were definitely at risk. And this extreme 

11 weather is in no question to me because of the 

12 global warming that's being caused across the 

13 world because of the carbon pollution. 

14 So to me the clean power plan is just 

15 such an important opportunity for us to take a 

16 step in the right direction to curb global 

17 warming and pollution so that we can hopefully 

18 provide a better world and a better future. As 

19 I'm starting to think about having kids and 

20 wanting them to have similar experiences that I 

21 had growing up here in Colorado, I just think 

22 that attacking global warming now while we still 

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1 have a chance to return to a world that we used 

2 to be able to enjoy, the snow, and the mountains 

3 in the winter, and the beautiful outdoors in the 

4 summer is just critical. 

5 And so I'm here to voice my support for 

6 the clean power plan. Thank you.

7 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Seeley. So 

8 you mind spelling your last name?

9 MS. SEELEY: It's S-e-e-l-e-y.

10 MS. SUTIN: Robert Castileno, have you 

11 come in?

12 (No response.) 

13 MS. SUTIN: Okay. Well, we'll pause for 

14 a few minutes. We're waiting for more speakers 

15 to arrive. So we will take a ten-minute break 

16 unless we have anymore speakers. 

17 Okay. We will take a ten to 15 minute 

18 break and we'll start up again. Thank you.

19 (Brief recess taken at 12:15 p.m.)

20 (Record resumes at 12:29 p.m.)

21 MS. SUTIN: Okay. We're going to get 

22 started again. Is Robert Castelino here?

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1 (No response.) 

2 MS. SUTIN: Still not here. Okay. Then 

3 can I have Matt Reed and Joe Ruff. Are you Mr. 

4 Reed?

5 MR. REED: I'm Mr. Reed.

6 MS. SUTIN: Okay. You'll go first.

7 MR. REED: Hello, my name is Matt Reed. 

8 I live in Englewood, Colorado. I come out today 

9 to testify in support of the clean power plan. 

10 Growing up in rural Runninson County, out 

11 on Colorado's western slope, I developed a love 

12 and appreciation for healthy forests, snowy 

13 mountains, flowing rivers, diverse wildlife, 

14 clean air and productive natural ecosystems. 

15 These resources are vital to our social 

16 and economic well-being. In fact, these natural 

17 attributes are why many people live in and visit 

18 the state and serve as the foundation for our 

19 productive economy. 

20 Continuing on the path of dumping 

21 unlimited amounts of carbon into the atmosphere 

22 puts all of this at risk. Carbon pollution and 

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1 climate change threaten the very fabric of our 

2 communities and the vast landscapes that make 

3 Colorado such a great place.

4 Colorado is blessed with an abundance of 

5 renewable energy sources, wind, solar, 

6 geothermal, let's embrace them. The clean power 

7 plan will improve human health, stimulate clean 

8 energy jobs, reduce carbon pollution and foster a 

9 cleaner and brighter future for the state and for 

10 all of America. This has always been a land of 

11 innovation, technological leadership and positive 

12 trend setting. 

13 I support the plan because I support a 

14 healthy America and a prosperous Colorado. 

15 Thanks.

16 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Reed. Do you 

17 mind spelling your name for the court reporter.

18 MR. REED: Sure Matt R-e-e-d.

19 MS. SUTIN: You can leave it here.

20 Okay. Mr. Rupp.

21 MR. RUPP: Yes. Good afternoon. My 

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1 p.

2 And first of all, I just wanted to thank 

3 you for allowing us the time to share our 

4 thoughts on this issue. 

5 I'm here to voice my support for the 

6 clean power plan. I think there's a lot of 

7 reasons that this is a necessary and urgent step 

8 for us to take, many of which have been voiced 

9 here today. But I recently have gained a new 

10 perspective on this issue. 

11 Just about 15 months ago my wife and I 

12 welcomed our first child into this world and it's 

13 amazing how having a kid changes your perspective 

14 on many issues. There are issues that I read 

15 about in the newspaper now that would have never 

16 even caught my attention 15 months ago. Quality 

17 of our public schools, issues on social security 

18 solvency and what my daughter is going to have to 

19 do with that when she's 50 years old. But in my 

20 mind there's no more pressing issue than global 

21 warming. And the thing that I have the hardest 

22 time imagining is 20 years from now or 30 years 

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1 from now explaining to my daughter the fact that 

2 we knew about this huge massive problem that 

3 affects every living creature on our planet and 

4 that we didn't do as much as we could as soon as 

5 we could. 

6 So in some regards I almost feel as 

7 though this plan is too late, but obviously I am 

8 grateful that we're even considering this step. 

9 And I think it's something that we have a moral 

10 obligation as citizens on this earth and 

11 certainly as parents to younger children to 

12 tackle with a great deal of urgency and a great 

13 deal of import. So I strongly encourage you to 

14 move forward with the plan that you've put forth. 

15 I am a strong supporter of it and hope to see 

16 even more of it in the near future.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Rupp.

19 Next if we can have Alexandra Schlereth 

20 and Katrina Riley. 

21 MS. SCHLERETH: Hi, my name is Alexandra 

22 Schlereth, it's S-c-h-l-e-r-e-t-h. I moved to 

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1 Colorado about eight years ago and fell in love 

2 with the state immediately mostly because of the 

3 incredible beauty in our state both in the summer 

4 and the winter. 

5 And I'm here today because I'm incredibly 

6 concerned about global warming and the effects 

7 it's having not just on our state, not just on 

8 our country, but across the entire world. I 

9 think it's an issue we need to take action on 

10 immediately, and this is one of the many steps 

11 that we should be pursuing. So I support the 

12 clean power plan very strongly and that's really 

13 all I have to say.

14 Thank you for your time.

15 MS. SUTIN: Thank you.

16 Ms. Riley?

17 MS. RILEY: Hi, my name is Katrina Riley, 

18 that's R-i-l-e-y. 

19 I am here today to show my support for 

20 the proposed clean power plan to regulate carbon 

21 emissions from power plants. 

22 I grew up here in Colorado and I think we 

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1 can all agree, this is a really beautiful and and 

2 special place and I think it's really important 

3 to keep it that way for future generations.

4 My family has lived here for nearly 20 

5 years and they have actually experienced some of 

6 these extreme weather phenomenon that have been 

7 seeming to increase in frequency over the last 

8 few years. My dad's house was actually flooded a 

9 little bit in those floods last September and my 

10 mom has had to evacuate a couple times last 

11 summer for wild fires. And I think these 

12 increased weird weather phenomenon are definitely 

13 linked to global warming. And I think limiting 

14 the carbon emissions from power plants will 

15 definitely help combat global warming around the 

16 country and also help preserve the environment 

17 and this state which we all love so very much.

18 That's all. Thank you.

19 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Riley.

20 Did Mr. Castelino --

21 He is in the other room?

22 Okay. If you know him, would you like to 

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1 tell him --

2 PARTICIPANT: (Off microphone.) 

3 MS. SUTIN: Okay. All right. Well, then 

4 can I have Phil Beardsley-Schoonmaker and Colleen 

5 Cooley.

6 MR. BEARDSLEY-SCHOONMAKER: Hello.

7 MS. SUTIN: Hello, go ahead. 

8 MR. BEARDSLEY-SCHOONMAKER: Yeah.

9 MS. SUTIN: Spell your last name for the 

10 record if you don't mind.

11 MR. BEARDSLEY-SCHOONMAKER: So the last 

12 name is Beardsley-Schoonmaker. It's spelled B-e13 a-r-d-s-l-e-y hyphen Schoonmaker is S-c-h-o-o-n14 m-a-k-e-r.

15 Okay. So thank you all very much for 

16 allowing us the time to come in and voice our 

17 opinions. I am a huge supporter of the EPA's 

18 proposed plan and I just want to share a quick 

19 story about why. 

20 My junior year of college I studied 

21 abroad in one of the southern states of India and 

22 I spent about a year there. During the first 

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1 month or so that my class -- there was about ten 

2 of us -- were there, we did a lot of cultural 

3 emersion and we were learning the language. We 

4 also had a lot of briefings on political issues, 

5 cultural issues, and in some cases environmental 

6 issues. And this man took us out to this beach. 

7 He sat us down in the sand and he said, "This is 

8 where the house I grew up in used to be." But 

9 because of severe weather events that are causing 

10 erosion because of rising sea levels, they're 

11 already experiencing in this part of the world, 

12 they've had to move their entire village inland 

13 about three miles. 

14 And he one-by-one went around to everyone 

15 in the circle, looked them dead in the eyes and 

16 said, "What are you going to do to fix this?" 

17 And it scared the crap out of me. It really got 

18 me thinking for the first time about our place, 

19 America's role in world events and the fact that 

20 we have such a huge impact on things as large as 

21 global climate. And really got me thinking about 

22 the way that our energy sector and the way that 

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1 we currently burn fossil fuels has been affecting 

2 other people from other places around the world.

3 And so I urge all of us to really keep 

4 that kind of perspective in mind, that there are 

5 people that are already experiencing negative 

6 effects of climate change all over the world and 

7 that is why I feel that this proposed plan is 

8 such an important step in the right direction, 

9 for us to keep a leadership role going for the 

10 United States and especially on the environment. 

11 So, thank you all very much.

12 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

13 Ms. Cooley, come in? No? Scott 

14 Albertson?

15 MR. ALBERTSON: My name is Scott 

16 Albertson. I'm here speaking on behalf of 

17 Boilermakers Local 33, Kansas City, Missouri, and 

18 our 1,600 members. We are here today because our 

19 members are concerned about the loss of their 

20 jobs due to EPA's proposed clean power plan.

21 Many of my brethren have already touched 

22 on many of the points I was going to make, so I 

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1 will just focus on our recommendations to the 

2 clean power plan.

3 The plan should provide states with 

4 credit for prior CO2 reductions as an option 

5 towards -- excuse me -- towards meeting a 

6 reasonable national target for reducing CO2 

7 emissions from the electric power sector.

8 EPA's compliance time table is 

9 unrealistic and unachievable even with multi-year 

10 compliance averaging towards the interim and 

11 final targets, the initial reduction program 

12 should be delayed by several years to allow 

13 states and effective sources adequate time to 

14 prepare and submit state plans and to structure 

15 and implement compliance strategies in the most 

16 flexible, least-cost manner.

17 Am I going too fast?

18 MS. SUTIN: You're fine.

19 MR. ALBERTSON: EPA's proposal for major 

20 expansions of state energy efficiency and 

21 renewable energy programs interfere with 

22 traditional state authority and energy planning 

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1 and appears to be well beyond the agency's 

2 authority under the Clean Air Act. 

3 The Supreme Court's recent decision on 

4 the GHG permitting rule contains strong 

5 cautionary language that the court will take a 

6 skeptical view of an overly expansive 

7 interpretation of the EPA's authority to regulate 

8 greenhouse gas.

9 We believe that the agency should 

10 reconsider the proposed rule's building block 

11 approach to set state CO2 emission reduction 

12 goals and based on end-use energy efficiency, 

13 increased use of natural gas, and renewable 

14 energy as well as other beyond the fence emission 

15 reduction strategies. 

16 Rather we urge EPA to focus only options 

17 for reducing emissions within the plant fence 

18 line. The proposed 6 percent efficiency 

19 improvement for existing coal units is a step in 

20 the right direction, but we are doubtful that all 

21 of these investments would ever be made given the 

22 rule's negative impact on coal generation and new 

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1 source review permitting constraints. 

2 Finally, we believe that the rule is 

3 premature since we do not know the extent to 

4 which other nations, particularly large 

5 developing countries, will be willing to commit 

6 to a truly global program of greenhouse gas 

7 reductions. We cannot go it alone and expect 

8 that our actions will have any meaningful climate 

9 impact in the world economy that is using more 

10 coal than other fossil fuels every day. 

11 Developing nations already emit more CO2 than 

12 advance industrial nations and the Department of 

13 Energy projects that their share of global 

14 emissions will grow steady.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Albertson.

17 Well, I think we'll have to pause again. 

18 Let's see if we can get the other speakers in 

19 here that were supposed to speak. , so hang 

20 tight.

21 (Brief recess at 12:41 p.m.)

22 (Record resumes at 12:46 p.m.)

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1 MS. SUTIN: I am officially closing the 

2 morning session of the hearing. Thank you all 

3 for coming and we will start up again at one 

4 o'clock. Thank you. 

5 (Whereupon, at 12:46 p.m., the morning 

6 session, Session A, concluded to resume at 1:00 

7 p.m. with Session B.)

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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1

2 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

3 SESSION B

4 (Time noted: 1:07 p.m.)

5 MR. JACKSON: Good afternoon, everyone, 

6 we'll go ahead and get started here. 

7 My name is Scott Jackson and I'm one of 

8 the chairs at today's public hearing. Thank you 

9 for coming today. 

10 Joining me on the panel today to my left 

11 is Abby Fulton and to my right here is Angela 

12 Giaz and we're here today to listen to your 

13 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

14 pollution from power plants. 

15 We are here today to listen to your 

16 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

17 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

18 of these proposed rules on June 2, 2014.

19 Power plants are the largest source of 

20 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

21 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

22 emissions.

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1 The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 

2 power plan for existing power plants. This 

3 proposal consists of two main parts, state4 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

5 power plants and guidelines to help states 

6 develop their plans for meeting their goals.

7 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

8 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

9 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

10 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

11 their goals by 2030.

12 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

13 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

14 and reconstructed power plants. This rule will 

15 set emission limits for two groups of power 

16 plants, those that make physical or operational 

17 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

18 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

19 that replace components to such an extent that 

20 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

21 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

22 facility. 

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1 If you would like more details on either 

2 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

3 available near the registration desk which is 

4 located just next to this room here.

5 Today's hearing is one of four public 

6 hearings across the country this week on the two 

7 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

8 in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 

9 you for taking time out of your day today to join 

10 us and share your comments.

11 All evidence to the contrary in this 

12 room, but we have a lot of people signed up to 

13 speak, at least we did yesterday. And likely 

14 we'll also have that case this afternoon. And we 

15 want to be able to hear from all of them. So 

16 before we get started I would like to go through 

17 a few housekeeping items and ground rules that 

18 will help make this hearing run smoothly.

19 First, please be sure you have checked in 

20 at the registration desk that is, like I 

21 mentioned, just next door. And if you -- check 

22 in at the registration desk even if you are not 

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1 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

2 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

3 you're here, please step out to the registration 

4 desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 

5 arrived. 

6 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

7 given a room letter when you checked in, either 

8 Room A or Room B. This is Room B. So hopefully 

9 everyone is in that right place. Are you in the 

10 right room? If not, this is a good time to 

11 switch.

12 If you are not speaking this afternoon 

13 and the room is getting crowded, we have two 

14 additional rooms set up where you can watch the 

15 hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 

16 desk will direct you to one of those rooms. It 

17 doesn't look like we're going to have that issue 

18 this afternoon, but just in case.

19 All right. Here's how today's hearing 

20 will work. I will call speakers in pairs, when 

21 your name is called, please come to the podium at 

22 the front of the room. When I call on you to 

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1 speak, please state your name, and spell it for 

2 the court reporter. This is Zack over here.

3 Your comments will be transcribed and 

4 included in the record of comments on the 

5 proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 

6 minutes to give comments. We have a light to 

7 help you know how much time you have left to 

8 speak. That's right here. When the light turns 

9 from green to yellow, that means you have one 

10 minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 

11 signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 

12 flash red and beep when you have spoken for five 

13 minutes and it is time to stop after that. 

14 When you are finished speaking, please 

15 remain at the table or podium until the person 

16 next to you has completed his or her testimony. 

17 We are here to listen to you today. 

18 However a panel member may ask you to clarify 

19 your comments, may ask you a few questions. 

20 After we get the first two at the podium 

21 I will call for the next pair of speakers to sit 

22 in the chairs behind there so that you're ready 

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1 to go once the speakers in front of you are 

2 finished. 

3 If you have brought a written copy of 

4 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

5 the registration desk before you leave today.

6 Because of the large number of people 

7 that have signed up over these two days, and to 

8 be fair to everyone, we are going to have to 

9 strictly enforce this five-minute limit.

10 If you have additional comments you would 

11 like to make, you can submit them in writing.

12 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

13 much consideration to comments we receive in 

14 writing as we do to the comments we receive at 

15 public hearings like this one. 

16 So if you have more than you would like 

17 to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 

18 reviewed. 

19 There is still plenty of time to get 

20 written comments in and there are comment cards 

21 available at the registration desk. Comments 

22 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

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1 put any written comments submitted today in the 

2 official docket for the proposed rule. 

3 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

4 other ways are available at the materials table 

5 near the registration desk.

6 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

7 tonight. We will take short breaks throughout 

8 the day as needed. If you have questions during 

9 the day or during this session, we ask that you 

10 please see the staff at the registration desk and 

11 someone can assist you. 

12 Finally, and most importantly, I want to 

13 ask each of you to please be respectful of

14 everyone who speaks today. We have people with a 

15 wide variety of views in the audience and we want 

16 to hear from all of you. So we can do that, and 

17 to be fair to everyone, we ask that everyone 

18 please listen quietly, even applause can slow 

19 things down and we want to hear from everyone who 

20 is signed up to speak. 

21 Thank you again, for taking the time 

22 today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 

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1 rules. Let's get started. 

2 So the first two speakers will be Terry 

3 Carwile and Colleen Cooley, if they could come to 

4 the podium. And the speakers after them will be 

5 Thomas Walsh and Carol Streamer, if you could 

6 take the seats behind those speakers if you're 

7 here yet.

8 Mr. Carwile, please begin.

9 MR. CARWILE: Thank you very much. My 

10 name is Terry Carwile, and that's spelled C-a-r11 w-i-l-e. I'm the Mayor of Craig, Colorado. I've 

12 lived in Craig, Colorado since 1976. I was on 

13 the ground when the Craig power plant was first 

14 constructed. I spent 30 years after that, from 

15 1978 to 2008 working out at Trapper Mine which 

16 fueled the Craig station. Not only did the Craig 

17 station and the associated coal reserves that 

18 fuel it, not only did that development fuel an 

19 economic transformation in the area, it fueled a 

20 social transformation. And that's what I want to 

21 spend a little bit of time talking about today. 

22 Because when the long-term stable employment base 

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1 took a grip on the community, that's when we 

2 started to see a real social fabric start to form 

3 and that's what has given the viability to the 

4 community up there that you see today. 

5 Improvements in education, new school 

6 construction, new community college construction, 

7 improvements in health care, new hospitals, new 

8 clinics, the workforce in both of those 

9 situations, the Craig station and Trapper mine 

10 are not, nor have they ever been part of this 

11 nation's problem when it comes to substandard 

12 health care or substandard retirement funding. 

13 So the educational system, the health 

14 care system and of course an array of economic --

15 I mean, recreational opportunities have arisen in 

16 the intervening years. Of course, that has also 

17 created an environment where people can complete 

18 a career and find Craig a very attractive place 

19 to spend their retirements as well.

20 So my request from the agency is that we 

21 do not be disrupted to that which has already 

22 been successfully constructed in our community. 

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1 A transformation is in the wind again. 

2 And I think it will probably be fueled by 

3 something like the community college, let's say. 

4 I think that will be the game changer of the 

5 future in our part of the world. The economy 

6 transforms from time to time up there and I've 

7 seen a couple of them come and go in the 38 years 

8 that I've lived up there. And so there's no 

9 reason not to expect that we can't move into the 

10 future with the same sort of success that we've 

11 had for the last 40 years.

12 The trick here, the real challenge, I 

13 think, is for us to do it without too much 

14 disruption. Too much job loss. It's a tough and 

15 challenging economic time right at the present 

16 and, you know, there are indications that it's on 

17 the upswing. We hope it gets to Craig soon. The 

18 city of Craig, of course, has been struggling 

19 with a bad projector when it comes to sales tax 

20 revenue. So we need everything that we can get 

21 to help get that economy stood back up.

22 So not only is the amenities to which I 

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1 referred important but the economic base created 

2 by the Craig station and the surrounding mines, 

3 that has helped us carry through tough economic 

4 times, which we are in today. Coming out of the 

5 recession, it's not as bad as it was in 2009, 

6 2010, but it is not that great anyway. We still 

7 have a lot more service that we need to provide 

8 than we have revenue for. So that's our 

9 challenge today. 

10 Is that the yellow light right there?

11 MR. JACKSON: Yes, one minute.

12 MR. CARWILE: I think that's going to be 

13 about as much as I have to say today. And I 

14 thank you all very much for your time.

15 One last thing is I cordially invite you 

16 to come to northwest Colorado. It is the last 

17 great frontier in the continental United States. 

18 It's about 13,000 people in a 4800 square mile 

19 area. So it qualifies as a frontier by Census 

20 standards. So, thank you all very much. I 

21 definitely appreciate your time. Thank you. 

22 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Carwile, if 

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1 you could stay there while the next speaker 

2 speaks. Thank you.

3 MR. CARWILE: Do you need this?

4 MR. JACKSON: You can hang onto that and 

5 give it to the registration desk when you --

6 MR. CARWILE: Thank you.

7 MR. JACKSON: If you could please stay 

8 until this speaker is finished.

9 MR. CARWILE: Oh, sure.

10 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Ms. Cooley?

11 MS. COOLEY: My name is Colleen Cooley, 

12 it's spelled C-o-l-l-e-e-n Cooley, C-o-o-l-e-y.

13 And I am here today. I come from the 

14 Four Corners region of Arizona, Utah, Colorado, 

15 and New Mexico. I grew up on the Navajo nation 

16 in a community known as Shonto, Arizona. I 

17 currently live and work in the Four Corners 

18 region. 

19 I am here today as a young Danah (ph) 

20 woman and I plan to have kids in the near future 

21 and I plan to build a home for myself, my fiancé, 

22 my kids, on the Navajo nation in the next five 

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1 years. 

2 I am an advocate for living sustainably 

3 and I want to live off the land as much as 

4 possible. Meaning, I want to grow my own food, 

5 collect my own water, utilize the sun and wind 

6 for my energy needs.

7 Right now in my current living situation 

8 I already exercise some of these things. But if I 

9 want to continue living this way, there needs to 

10 be clean air and clean water available in the 

11 next 100 years or so for myself, my kids, and 

12 future generations.

13 Right now the Navajo nation is surrounded 

14 by at least five coal-fired power plants, two of 

15 which are located on the Navajo nation, one in 

16 Arizona and one in New Mexico. When I first 

17 heard about he proposed clean power plan I was 

18 happy to hear that the nearby power plants were 

19 going to reduce their carbon pollution. But 

20 shortly after, another article was released 

21 stating that the power plants located in Indian 

22 country were being delayed from the proposed rule 

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1 and that tribes will have the opportunity to come 

2 up with their own clean up plans. 

3 However, I understand there are multi4 jurisdictional issues with tribes and states 

5 especially for the Navajo nation, but this is 

6 just unacceptable. I mean, why should the Navajo 

7 people continue to suffer from the carbon 

8 pollution from the two biggest power plants in 

9 the U.S.? We have already suffered for the past 

10 50 years and there has been an increase in 

11 asthma, bronchitis and other health-related 

12 issues. It just doesn't make sense because the 

13 pollution emitted from these power plants does 

14 not stay on the reservation, it travels off the 

15 reservation affecting nearby communities, towns, 

16 national parks and waterways.

17 Also, none of the power generated at 

18 these two power plants goes directly to the 

19 Navajo people. The power is owned by non-Navajo 

20 utility companies and is delivered to southern 

21 Arizona and southern New Mexico where from there 

22 our own tribal utility authority then purchases 

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1 the power back from these companies in order to 

2 provide electricity to some of the Navajo 

3 customers residing on the Navajo nation.

4 From the pollution to giant power lines 

5 to health issues running through the Navajo 

6 nation I believe this is an environment justice 

7 issue, ultimately a human rights issue. So to be 

8 fair to all living things on the mother earth I 

9 strongly urge the Environmental Protection Agency 

10 to enforce the clean power plan for all power 

11 plants in the U.S. including the power plants 

12 located in Indian country.

13 Since high school, I have seen and heard 

14 about how these power plants have affected the 

15 health of the people, the land, the waterways, 

16 the animals and the air we breathe. So after 

17 high school I decided to continue my education, 

18 go to college, and learn more about the 

19 environmental issues and the factors affecting 

20 our Danah (ph) life ways. And now I have 

21 received my bachelor's degree and master's degree 

22 in environmental sciences and I am currently 

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1 working with a non-profit environmental 

2 organization known as Danah Care (ph) where we 

3 work with Navajo communities affected by energy 

4 and environmental issues such as the Four Corners 

5 Power Plant and coal mine.

6 However, one does not need to have a 

7 college degree to understand that the climate is 

8 rapidly changing, and what is the main 

9 contributor to this change? Carbon pollution. 

10 Our Navajo elders have lived and witnessed these 

11 changes in their lifetimes. I know because I 

12 have listened to their stories about how they 

13 used to grow their own food every summer, how 

14 their springs and washes were filled with water 

15 for their sheep and horses to consume, how it 

16 used to rain periodically. 

17 But now our climate is being disrupted 

18 with carbon pollution and it will only get worse, 

19 especially in Indian country unless the EPA 

20 enforces the proposed clean power plan on all 

21 power plants in the U.S.

22 The Denah people and other tribes deserve 

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1 an equally strong plan as the rest of the country 

2 to protect our life ways, the health of our 

3 people and the health of the land, water, and 

4 air. We are not fortunate enough to just 

5 relocate from our communities if they get 

6 destroyed by catastrophic events such as 

7 wildfires and flash floods. We have suffered the 

8 burden of climate injustices for far too long and 

9 it needs to stop now. Please enforce the clean 

10 power plan for all power plants.

11 Thank you. 

12 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Ms. Cooley.

13 Thank you both.

14 We're going to replace batteries on these 

15 mikes. And if I could have Thomas Walsh and 

16 Carol Streamer as our next speakers. 

17 MS. STREAMER: Did you say Carol 

18 Streamer, because I can't hear you too well.

19 MR. JACKSON: Yes.

20 And is Thomas Walsh here?

21 (No response.) 

22 MR. JACKSON: We'll get started as soon 

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1 as the batteries are in place.

2 (Pause.) 

3 PARTICIPANT: Is the other gentleman not 

4 here?

5 MR. JACKSON: Does not appear to be. So 

6 you may start.

7 MS. STREAMER: Okay. I will start.

8 Carol Streamer, S-t-r-e-a-m-e-r. I 

9 represent the Boulder County Beekeepers 

10 Association. I'm here because I think you have 

11 to pay attention to warning signs from nature.

12 When I was born here in Colorado, we used 

13 coal to fuel our plants and I -- my job during 

14 World War II was to observe. In fact, when the 

15 coal truck came to see in fact we got our fair 

16 share of coal to feed our furnace, because I was 

17 living in a building that wasn't heated all the 

18 time. It was three stories tall. We sometimes 

19 were cheated in our coal shipment.

20 During the 1970s I work for Frederick 

21 Carter Cutrell and Frederick Carter Cutrell 

22 created the patent system for retrieving 

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1 pollution from the power plants in New York. So 

2 I do have some idea about the fact that they had 

3 awareness in World War II of a problem with 

4 pollution in New York. And I am pleased that I 

5 got to work for him 25 years after he died.

6 Now, what happened in 1974 is we were 

7 planning an RTD system for our transportation in 

8 Boulder County and the rest of metropolitan 

9 Denver and I happened to have to walk to the 

10 places where we were meeting and noticed along 

11 the power plant in Boulder County that all of the 

12 cottonwood trees crowns were dead. And I went to 

13 a U.S. Forestry Department meeting. The man who 

14 was from that department in Washington, D.C. told 

15 me in fact that when they built the power plants 

16 in the 19th century, they decided the 20th 

17 century people were going to be too stupid to 

18 know something about what they were doing. 

19 They in fact -- most people don't 

20 realize, you can't have water in your home and 

21 toilets which was brand-new at that idea in the 

22 19th century, unless you had electricity.

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1 One of the problems is that we have is in 

2 fact the change in our culture if in fact we do 

3 too much with our power plants as what happened 

4 yesterday in downtown, I guess it's Los Angeles, 

5 where in fact the water system exploded and the 

6 line underneath, which is 75 years old, and in 

7 fact caused a real crisis in the campus there in 

8 Los Angeles.

9 This is one of the things that has to be 

10 addressed and that is if we change things in our 

11 power systems, which is important, we have to 

12 also know about the rest of the power system 

13 which has to do with our infrastructure of 

14 toilets, sewers, and running water in our 

15 kitchens and bathrooms. And this can be as our 

16 population grows an enormous problem for people 

17 to address. 

18 And also we have to be aware of the fact 

19 that there are warning signs from such as the 

20 bees that are having struggles surviving. And 

21 they are sending us messages about the fact that 

22 our air is polluted and there are other insects 

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1 that are causing us different kinds of 

2 difficulties that give us a warning sign.

3 Those of us who in fact are living very 

4 fragile lives because of our internal problems, 

5 that as we age, have to have clean water, we know 

6 in fact that the problems that China has with its 

7 yellow pollution. And we are, in fact, creating 

8 problems throughout the world not just for 

9 ourselves. We're on the 40th parallel and in the 

10 40th parallel we get the airwaves that are 

11 traveling around the world from coal and other 

12 pollutions. So we have to be aware of our 

13 environment in many different ways. 

14 And I appreciate the time you gave me 

15 unexpectedly to address this. But I do hope you 

16 bear a warning sign about the fact the cottonwood 

17 trees, when the crown dies, that means not only 

18 do the power plants have to be replaced, but also 

19 the infrastructure of your water and sewer 

20 system. 

21 Thank you.

22 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

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1 Did Thomas Walsh happen to arrive?

2 (No response.)

3 MR. JACKSON: Thomas Walsh. So at the 

4 moment I don't have any speakers in front of me 

5 listed. Maybe some of you are waiting to speak. 

6 Maybe we'll take a five-minute break so I can 

7 look into that situation and so please be back in 

8 five minutes.

9 (Brief recess taken at 1:30 p.m.)

10 (Record resumes at 1:35 p.m.)

11 MR. JACKSON: Okay. We'll go ahead and 

12 resume. Sorry for the delay there.

13 We have David Ellenberger in the room on 

14 behalf of Kera Reed. Mr. Ellenberger, please 

15 come up and then Dave Chadwick, also please come 

16 up.

17 Just a reminder, I don't think I said 

18 this from the beginning, if you could leave those 

19 little microphones untouched on the top there, 

20 that's for the court reporter, and if you move 

21 them around it kind of messes up the recording. 

22 So we appreciate that. And, again, a reminder to 

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1 please spell your name for the court reporter. 

2 Thank you. So we'll go ahead and start with Mr. 

3 Ellenberger.

4 MR. ELLENBERGER: Yeah. My name is David 

5 Ellenberger, I work for the National Wildlife 

6 Federation in Boulder, but had some testimony 

7 submitted from Beth Pratt who is our -- that's P8 r-a-t-t, who is our California director of the 

9 National Wildlife Federation.

10 And she says: Thank you for the 

11 opportunity to submit formal testimony regarding 

12 EPA's proposed clean power plan. Her name is 

13 Beth Pratt and the California director of the 

14 National Wildlife Federation.

15 I'm here today from my home on the border 

16 of Yosemite National Park to express my strong 

17 support of EPA's historic action to combat 

18 climate change by setting limits on carbon 

19 pollution from existing power plants.

20 We have an obligation to protect our 

21 children and future generations from the impact 

22 of climate change. We also have an obligation to 

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1 protect wildlife and our natural resources upon 

2 which we all depend that are on the frontlines of 

3 our changing climate. 

4 Our warming climate is posing one of the 

5 greatest threats to wildlife today and as a 

6 wildlife enthusiast and nature lover, I applaud 

7 EPA for taking action to combat the route of the 

8 problem, carbon pollution. 

9 I have witnessed the damage of extreme 

10 weather fueled by climate change in California. 

11 In Yosemite one of the best protected places on 

12 the planet, climate change is taking its toll on 

13 both people and wildlife. Last year the rim fire 

14 partially fueled by the impacts of climate change 

15 burned 402 square miles and threatened two of 

16 Yosemite's ancient groves of giant Sequoyah trees 

17 and destroyed vital habitat for the rate Yosemite 

18 great gay owl and other wildlife species.

19 Over half of the small mammal species in 

20 Yosemite have moved their habitat range as 

21 compared to earlier in the century, mostly due to 

22 the higher and drier conditions created by the 

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1 rising temperatures. 

2 Elsewhere in California, Salmon are 

3 having to be trucked to their spawning grounds 

4 because of dry rivers, bears are emerging from 

5 hibernation early only to find no food, and sea 

6 lions are experiencing increased pup mortality 

7 and strandings. 

8 In a report released last year the 

9 California EPA warned that climate change 

10 proposed an immediate and growing threat to the 

11 wildlife in the state. California possesses a 

12 remarkable range of wild places and wildlife and 

13 of any state in America, ranks as having the 

14 highest total number of species and highest 

15 number of endemic species. California also 

16 houses one of the world's 25 most vulnerable 

17 biological hot spots, and ranks second in the 

18 United States for the number of endangered 

19 species within its borders.

20 Climate change is putting this special 

21 natural heritage at risk. 

22 I applaud EPA for taking much needed 

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1 steps to reverse the course we're on. The U.S. 

2 EPA's clean power plan is a major step in the 

3 right direction. This plan will help speed the 

4 way towards a future in which we invest more in 

5 wildlife-friendly sources of clean energy and 

6 less in fuels that pollute our air and water and 

7 harm our total climate.

8 By reducing the reliance on coal burning 

9 for power generation in the U.S. the clean power 

10 plan will help protect wildlife by reducing not 

11 only the carbon pollution, but also other harmful 

12 pollutants like mercury that poison fish and 

13 threaten all of us who eat them. This role will 

14 reduce the need for more coal mining that's 

15 destroying precious wildlife habitat and it will

16 reduce the number of leaking toxic coal waste 

17 ponds that put our lakes and rivers in harm's 

18 way.

19 As you finalize the standard, I ask that 

20 you work to ensure that it achieves that deepest 

21 reductions possible by requiring states to use 

22 wildlife-friendly renewable energy and energy 

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1 efficiency and not simply more natural gas 

2 burning. California can and should do more to 

3 generate power from renewable sources like wind 

4 and solar and reduce energy demands for energy 

5 efficiency. EPA should strengthen the standard 

6 to reflect this potential.

7 Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

8 today. We look forward to working with you to 

9 finalize and implement the clean power plan. We 

10 hope you will do everything you can to ensure it 

11 stays strong through the process. The wildlife 

12 and future generations are counting on your 

13 leadership. Thanks in advance and let us know if 

14 you have any questions, Beth Pratt, California 

15 Director of National Wildlife Federation.

16 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

17 Mr. Chadwick?

18 MR. CHADWICK: Hi, my name is Dave 

19 Chadwick, spelled C-h-a-d-w-i-c-k. I'm the 

20 executive director of the Montana Wildlife 

21 Federation. I live in Helena, Montana. 

22 The Montana Wildlife Federation is 

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1 Montana's oldest and largest wildlife 

2 conservation organization. MWF was founded in 

3 1936 by hunters, anglers, wildlife watchers, 

4 agricultural landowners and a variety of other 

5 conservationists who were concerned about the 

6 loss of our state's natural lands, healthy 

7 waters, and abundant wildlife.

8 For the last eight decades MWF has played 

9 a central role in efforts to protect the 

10 resources that define Montana's identity as the 

11 last, best place. Our 5,000 members include 

12 hunters, anglers, and other conservationists from 

13 around Montana and the nation.

14 Montana is an outdoor state. Almost 

15 570,000 people hunt, fish, and enjoy wildlife 

16 watching in Montana. 

17 We see firsthand the impacts that global 

18 warming is having on our lands, waters, fish and 

19 wildlife. This fact documented by an 

20 overwhelming global scientific consensus is 

21 playing out in very real ways in the treasure 

22 state. Precipitation patterns are changing. 

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1 Wildfires are more frequent and more intense, 

2 drought is more common and more severe. 

3 Vegetation patterns are changing. Snow pack 

4 levels are down. Runoff is happening earlier, 

5 disrupting seasonal stream flow patterns. Water 

6 temperatures in our rivers and streams are 

7 rising. All of these changes are having a very 

8 real and tangible impact on the ability of 

9 Montanans to hunt, fish, and enjoy our state's 

10 outdoors. 

11 Changes in vegetation are altering 

12 habitat for big game. Hunters around this state 

13 report that the animals just aren't where they 

14 used to be. Warmer temperatures in September are 

15 making life difficult for bow hunters who can't 

16 find animals and can't pack out game without 

17 spoilage. 

18 Drier conditions in the prairie pothole 

19 region of eastern Montana are impacting waterfowl 

20 hunters and bird watchers.

21 Higher water temperatures and diminished 

22 stream flows are stressing fish forcing river 

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1 closures during what used to be the peak of the 

2 fishing season in the best fishing in the west. 

3 These changes are affecting the ability of people 

4 from Montana and from all over the world to hunt, 

5 fish, and otherwise enjoy Montana's wildlife 

6 resources, ultimately undercutting our state's

7 multibillion dollar outdoor economy. 

8 Because of the impact that global warming 

9 has on fish, wildlife and the outdoor traditions 

10 that depend on these resources, the Montana 

11 Wildlife Federation supports policies for 

12 reduced greenhouse gas emissions.

13 If we don't act now these problems will 

14 only get worse. We need to take steps to address 

15 global warming in order to ensure that future 

16 generations can enjoy the hunting, fishing, and 

17 other outdoor traditions that we value as 

18 Montanans. We also need to protect the tens of 

19 thousands of jobs in communities all over the 

20 state that depend on our natural environment and 

21 on our rich outdoor recreation opportunities. 

22 The clean power plan represents a good 

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1 step toward helping protect Montana from the 

2 threat of global warming. The plan calls for 

3 Montana to reduce our global warming pollution by 

4 21 percent by 2030 in order to contribute to the 

5 overall nationwide reduction of 30 percent. 

6 We believe that the state focused7 approach in the proposal will give Montana the 

8 flexibility to develop strategies that work for 

9 our resources, our economy, and our power needs. 

10 In addition to the benefits of reducing global 

11 warming pollution, the clean power plan has the 

12 potential to reduce other threats to fish and 

13 wildlife. 

14 Some of Montana's most wildlife rich 

15 areas are also targets for coal mining and other 

16 extracted activities. Reducing our national 

17 dependence on dirty energy sources will reduce 

18 pressure to destroy and fragment Montana's 

19 landscape keeping these lands and waters in tact 

20 for future generations of people and wildlife.

21 On the other side of the equation, the 

22 clean power plan also holds great potential to 

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1 enhance Montana's economy by creating new jobs in 

2 renewable energy and energy efficiency. Wind and 

3 other clean renewable energy sources represent a 

4 potential growth industry for Montana. The state 

5 plans developed under the clean power plan can 

6 provide for the responsible development of these 

7 renewable resources. Improving energy efficiency 

8 similarly holds the potential to save money for 

9 Montanans.

10 On behalf of the hundreds of thousands of 

11 Montanans who hunt, fish, and enjoy the outdoors, 

12 as well as the hundreds of thousands of Montanans 

13 who depend on our state's multibillion dollar 

14 fish and wildlife-based outdoor economy, I urge 

15 you to support a strong clean power plan that 

16 reduces greenhouse gas pollution. 

17 Thank you.

18 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Thank you both.

19 We have Jeff Delaney ready to speak?

20 MR. DELANEY: Thank you. I'll leave that 

21 there. 

22 MR. JACKSON: And Mr. Delaney, we're just 

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1 going to pause for 30 seconds here to see if we 

2 can drum up a few more speakers' names. Thank 

3 you.

4 (Pause.) 

5 MR. JACKSON: Okay. Do we have Karen 

6 Sjoberg and Pastor Patrick Demmer in the 

7 audience?

8 (Chorus of yes.)

9 MR. JACKSON: If you guys could just cue 

10 up there behind Mr. Delaney and you'll be the 

11 next to speak. Mr. Delaney, thank you for 

12 waiting.

13 MR. DELANEY: Hi, my name is Jeff 

14 Delaney, that's D-e-l-a-n-e-y.

15 I'm a petroleum engineer and geologist 

16 and I support the EPA's proposed clean power 

17 plan. 

18 I've been a member of the Denver Climate 

19 Change Study Group for four years and I'm also a 

20 volunteer with Al Gore's Climate Reality Group. 

21 Climate change education is a passion of 

22 mine. The science is settled and it's time to 

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1 act. Colorado has been a national leader at the 

2 state level with the passing of Amendment 37 ten 

3 years ago in 2004. 

4 The last I looked, our economy has 

5 recovered nicely and we lead the nation in a 

6 relatively robust economy. Now, with the new EPA 

7 standards, we can begin to lead as a nation as 

8 well.

9 I want to address the lay person and 

10 folks that are skeptical and deniers that are 

11 tied to special interests.

12 Yes, the climate has changed in the past, 

13 but at a geologic pace and not in a generation or 

14 two. It is not the sun. 

15 It is not too late to act, as some claim 

16 and fear, but further delay will be more costly 

17 and much more difficult. The earth is not now 

18 cooling as some misrepresent by cherry picking 

19 data. There is a scientific consensus; 97 

20 percent of published peer-reviewed papers by 

21 climate scientists conclude that anthropogenic 

22 climate science--climate change is indeed a fact.

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1 All National Academies of Science of 

2 every major country are in agreement with this 

3 consensus. All scientific associations related 

4 to the study of climate change and global warming 

5 have concluded that climate change is 

6 anthropogenic. 

7 But let's not just take the scientific 

8 community's word for it. What about business? 

9 Reinsurance companies, the multi-national 

10 companies that insure insurance companies, Munich 

11 Re, for example, is very concerned about the 

12 increased extreme weather that we see globally. 

13 They're tracking it, modifying their financial 

14 models and the results are alarming for them.

15 You can Google it. You can look at 

16 Munich Re's tracking extreme weather over time, 

17 there's a nice plot out there.

18 The CEO Swiss Re, the other large multi19 national reinsure company was quoted a year ago 

20 saying, "What keeps us up late at night is 

21 climate change. We see the long-term effects of 

22 climate change on society and it really frightens 

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1 us."

2 Jeffrey Seawright of Coca-Cola increased 

3 -- was quoted as saying, "Increased droughts, 

4 more unpredictable variability, hundred year 

5 floods with a frequency of every two years. When 

6 we look at our most essential ingredients in 

7 their supply chain, we see these events as 

8 threats."

9 In 2012 alone, weather disasters cost the 

10 U.S. economy over $100 billion. When it is 

11 claimed that coal-fired electric generation is 

12 the least expensive, the full-cycle economics are 

13 not part of that equation. A recent Washington 

14 Post ABC news poll found that 70 percent of the 

15 American public back carbon limits on existing 

16 power plants including a majority of Republicans.

17 Climate models clearly depict a world 

18 that we would not recognize if climate change 

19 goes unchecked. We need to lead in this effort 

20 as we lead the world in other technological 

21 advances such as electronics, the Internet, and 

22 biotech. 

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1 We were surpassed by China in 2009 as in 

2 the generation of renewable technology. The 

3 proposed EPA standards are a start, but we need 

4 to place a price on carbon as well because we are 

5 paying a price on carbon with the warming climate 

6 change and extreme weather we have seen in the 

7 recent past.

8 Thank you.

9 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

10 Ms. Sjoberg and Pastor Demmer, you guys 

11 could come on up to the podium there. We'll 

12 start with Ms. Sjoberg.

13 MS. SJOBERG: Thank you, my name is Karen 

14 Sjoberg, Karen Sjoberg is S-j-o-b-e-r-g, and I'm 

15 here today representing Citizens for Clean Air. 

16 And we are an organization in Grand Junction 

17 which is a city of 130,000 on the other side of 

18 the mountains. I moved there from Denver almost 

19 30 years ago and I fell in love with the beauty 

20 of the place. People who love the outdoors love 

21 Grand Junction and so we attract lots of 

22 recreationists and outdoor people and tourists, 

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1 and we also have a lot of fruit growers and 

2 vintners, beautiful orchards. And we have a lot 

3 at stake from the effects of climate change, our 

4 agriculture, our economy, our air, our water, and 

5 our health. 

6 A couple of us drove the 200 miles over 

7 the mountain just to let you know that we are 

8 grateful for the clean power plan along with many 

9 others in western Colorado. We do have an air 

10 pollution problem in Grand Junction. We are 

11 moving towards nonattainment. And Citizens for 

12 Clean Air is working against any and all 

13 incremental increases in air pollutants. Poor 

14 air quality is made worse by the effects of 

15 climate change and these effects are real in my 

16 home town. 

17 Summertime temperatures are getting 

18 warmer. We're seeing less rainfall, and winter 

19 nights are warming. And I do have some data 

20 which I'll leave in my written statement. 

21 I love Colorado. I'm a Colorado native. 

22 And I'm encouraged that we've already taken steps 

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1 to reduce carbon, methane, and other harmful 

2 pollutants. Citizens for Clean Air is proud to 

3 have played a part in the recent effort along 

4 with the Air Quality Control Commission in 

5 placing safeguards that reduce methane and other 

6 oil and gas emissions in this state. And this 

7 was a collaborative effort by industry, 

8 environmentalists, governments, and citizens 

9 groups like ours. And that success shows that 

10 when we work together great things can happen.

11 We feel that the clean power plan is 

12 another step forward. The standard makes sense, 

13 and they're designed so that Colorado can choose 

14 to comply in ways that best suit us. They give 

15 us the opportunity to transition to cleaner fuel 

16 sources that will open up new jobs. The clean 

17 power plan gives us hope, most of all. Today's 

18 children deserve a bright future, the kind of 

19 future that I had when I was a child. And I'm 

20 willing to work for it and I'm willing to 

21 sacrifice some things for it. 

22 The air we breathe has been something 

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1 that we've been able to take for granted up until 

2 now. And it has been a hard lesson for me to 

3 learn that clean air doesn't come free anymore, 

4 that from here on out we're going to have work 

5 for it. 

6 Now that we're finally acknowledging our 

7 problem, we can put our best selves forward to 

8 face up to it and to do something to change it. 

9 I thank you for doing your part? And I do want 

10 to add something that I hadn't planned on saying. 

11 It was pointed out to me just recently that the 

12 proposal encourages nuclear power plants with 

13 incentives and subsidies. And for us on the 

14 western slope, nuclear power plants mean uranium 

15 mining and milling. And we have a legacy of 

16 nothing but tragedy as far as that is concerned 

17 and I've lost faith in it, and that would be the 

18 one part of the plan that we would totally 

19 disagree with. It's not sustainable, it's not 

20 renewable and it's bad news for western Colorado. 

21 Thank you very much.

22 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

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1 Mr. Demmer?

2 MR. DEMMER: Thank you. I am the 

3 Reverend Patrick Demmer, my last name is spelled 

4 D-e-m-m-e-r. I'm a Pastor at the Graham Memorial 

5 Community Church of God in Christ and I just 

6 thank you for this opportunity to stand before 

7 you.

8 The Bible declares that the earth is the 

9 Lord's and the fullness thereof. But he gave it 

10 to man. And it is our responsibility to keep it, 

11 preserve it, and to maintain it. 

12 As a boy I grew up -- and I'm a native of 

13 Colorado, I grew up right here in the 

14 unincorporated community of Adams County. I know 

15 what it means to have a good and a bad 

16 environment. I know what it means to be able to 

17 feed chickens and slop hogs and milk cows, and 

18 all of the good things that came along with good 

19 country living. But because there was a plant 

20 that was right behind where I grew up that was 

21 contaminating the land and it's not a secret, the 

22 name of the plant was the Asarco plant. And 

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1 because it contaminated where we lived, many 

2 health problem and many issues with asthma, many 

3 issues with breathing. I right now have 

4 tremendous difficulties with different kinds of 

5 breathing my own self (sic), and the only thing 

6 we can attribute it perhaps to was the 

7 environment and where I grew up. 

8 Because I believe in that Bible, because 

9 I believe in what God gave to us, it is our duty 

10 to keep it nice, to keep it clean, and to keep it 

11 protected, I am very encouraged by what our 

12 president has proposed to help us maintain and 

13 clean up our environment. 

14 I was somewhat surprised, but yet 

15 delighted to discover, that President Obama's 

16 concern for a healthy climate for all of us is a 

17 first-ever effort to engage and set commonsense 

18 federal limits on carbon pollution. But I 

19 applaud this effort. I support this effort.

20 Many have suggested that African 

21 Americans are not conservatives, but that is not 

22 true. Yes, we've had to fight to survive, but

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1 the greatest sense of survival is good health. 

2 My community very often is the least that can 

3 afford prolonged health issues, medical care, and 

4 problems even with our young children growing up, 

5 fighting to live, fighting to survive because of 

6 that which have made our air, the very air we 

7 breathe toxic. 

8 I support the president's desire and I 

9 support and I urge -- I urge the powers that be 

10 to recognize that we only have one world. We may 

11 travel through outer space, but this is our earth 

12 and we must take care of this earth. I urge you 

13 to do all you can do and I stand behind that 

14 which would keep our earth and our atmosphere 

15 safe for everybody.

16 Thank you. 

17 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

18 Okay. Our next speakers will be Fannie 

19 Posey Eddy and Braden Miguel, please come up. 

20 And behind them we'll have Dwayne Richards and 

21 Mark Farnsworth. If you are here, you could sit 

22 in the chairs behind the podiums, that would 

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1 help, or speed us along here. So do we have 

2 Dwayne Richards or Mark Farnsworth?

3 So Ms. Eddy?

4 MS. EDDY: Thank you. My name is Fannie 

5 Posey Eddy. I'm the President of the American 

6 Association of Blacks in Energy, Denver Area 

7 Chapter. 

8 The American Association of Blacks in 

9 Energy is a national organization of energy 

10 professionals comprised of a network of 37 

11 chapters and 1800 members across the United 

12 States representing every sector of the energy 

13 industry. 

14 Our mission is to ensure the input of 

15 African Americans and other minorities enter the 

16 discussions and development of energy policies, 

17 regulations, R&D technologies and environmental 

18 issues.

19 The AABE recognizes the need for 

20 increased participation in the discussion on 

21 climate change policy by historically underserved 

22 communities and has developed specific principles 

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1 related to climate change that includes the 

2 support of mechanisms to achieve cost-effective 

3 reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, reduction 

4 policies which do not result in a net negative 

5 impact on jobs, trade balances and the cost of 

6 goods and services. We support consistent 

7 greenhouse gas emission reduction policies which 

8 seek to balance the cost of environmental 

9 improvements with the benefits of economic 

10 development, cleaner air and water. 

11 We support policies ensuring that low12 and fixed-income consumers do not shoulder a 

13 disproportionate cost impact as a result of 

14 efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. 

15 Climate change is a real threat to the 

16 health and welfare of our most vulnerable 

17 citizens, which include the elderly, children, 

18 and people who are living in poverty realizing 

19 there is no simple solution for addressing the 

20 climate change issue. We support the president's 

21 action plan to reduce carbon pollution and 

22 prepare our communities for the effects of 

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1 climate change. 

2 We should also continue to pursue options 

3 which include the research, development, 

4 commercialization, and employment of energy 

5 efficiency, renewable energy, natural gas and 

6 other energy technologies that would be effective 

7 in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. 

8 On behalf of the American Association of 

9 Blacks in Energy, Denver Area Chapter, I thank 

10 you for this opportunity and I would like to 

11 encourage you to continue to proactively involve 

12 the voice of African Americans and other 

13 minorities in this significant discussion. And 

14 we offer AABE as a resource and a collaborator.

15 Thank you very much.

16 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

17 Mr. Miguel? Braden Miguel?

18 MR. MIGUEL: Hello. I once got the 

19 experience of hearing a classmate speak in class 

20 about his struggle with environmentalism. He 

21 struggled because he knew that even if he applied 

22 everything that he learned to reduce his carbon 

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1 footprint, he would have a long and difficult 

2 journey. But on top of that he felt like he 

3 would have changed nothing. I think back on that 

4 time I got to hear him speak occasionally for 

5 that valuable opinion where I think he saw the 

6 struggle as a burden on himself, I see that 

7 struggle as a burden on all of us, something we 

8 all share and eventually will affect everyone on 

9 the planet.

10 My name is Braden Miguel and I am an 

11 environmental studies major at the University of 

12 Colorado Boulder. I also have a minor -- getting 

13 a minor in business. And I speak for myself, my 

14 family and my friends as well as classmates. 

15 After doing research on the clean power 

16 rule, I approve. I think it sets reasonable 

17 goals and it gives opportunities to states to 

18 innovate and collaborate to reach those goals. I 

19 support mostly incentive and subsidy towards 

20 widespread solar. I think widespread solar is 

21 the best in terms of sustainability and it will 

22 affect -- it will have the longest impact over 

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1 the longest period of time. It is reliable to 

2 the owner and user. 

3 My word of caution goes out in terms of 

4 as we transition from this period, as we 

5 transition, we must be careful as we internalize 

6 this carbon externality. 

7 Rate increases I think can have a big 

8 impact on low and middle income families in the 

9 short-term period. I'll speak on that a little 

10 bit more with a cautionary tale about a town here 

11 in Colorado of Pueblo. 

12 Since 2010, Pueblo's energy provider has

13 decided to invest heavily in renewables. Some 

14 might say to regard overinvesting. And during 

15 this period the people of Pueblo, since 2010, 

16 have seen a 26 percent rate increase. With the 

17 cost of restabilizing if their energy -- if they 

18 were unable to pay and their electricity got 

19 turned off, the fees were high to turn it back on 

20 which made it more troublesome for them, and in 

21 that period of time the electricity company, 

22 Black Hills, their stock doubled and they were 

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1 able to invest heavily in their energy of the 

2 future. Some might say a good thing, but the 

3 impact could be a problem. 

4 There have been other articles written 

5 about this incident that you might want to look 

6 at for more information than I have as well as 

7 more eloquently said. And that is what I have to 

8 say. Thank you. 

9 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Miguel. 

10 Could you -- I have one clarifying question or 

11 request. That you submit the data on the 26 

12 percent price increase to the docket. And if 

13 you're unfamiliar with how to submit to the 

14 docket, you can check with the registration folks 

15 next door. 

16 MR. MIGUEL: Okay.

17 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

18 Thank you both. We will go ahead and 

19 move the next couple speakers and that would be 

20 Mr. Dwayne Richards and Mark Farnsworth and if we 

21 have in the room at this time, Cleo Breeze, if 

22 you could come on up and take a seat behind the 

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1 podium. And we'll go ahead and start Mr. 

2 Richards.

3 MR. RICHARDS: I had some prepared 

4 remarks, but I think I'm just going to toss them 

5 out and kind of ad lib here a little bit.

6 My name is Dwayne Richards. I'm the 

7 general manager for Western Fuels Association, R8 i-c-h-a-r-d-s. 

9 We buy and deliver coal and produce coal 

10 for our members. I've been in this energy 

11 industry for 40 years. I think it's worthwhile 

12 to talk about how we got to where we are.

13 A lot of these were a direct result of 

14 government policies. Some misguided, but it you 

15 look back about the time I was getting out of 

16 college is when we got through our first energy 

17 crisis. We were just hitting it. And that's how 

18 I got into this industry because if you remember 

19 OPEC was established after the Arab Israeli War 

20 in 1973. This meant higher oil prices and oil 

21 could no longer really be used for generation 

22 purposes. The government wasn't building more 

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1 dams, so there wasn't -- a lot more generation 

2 was coming from dams. 

3 Natural gas for electricity generation 

4 was actually outlawed and probably still on the 

5 books as being outlawed.

6 Coal was considered at that time to be 

7 our country's ace in the hole. It was what was 

8 going to make us energy independent. In fact, 

9 government, you know, forest companies at that 

10 time who are holding federal coal leases, they 

11 thought they were hoarding those coal leases and 

12 forced them to develop those leases within ten 

13 years or they would lose leases. 

14 Those are being held because people --

15 well, people looked at coal gasification and 

16 potentially coal liquefaction. So coal was going 

17 to be looked at and was looked at, at that time 

18 to make us energy independent. So at that time 

19 the utilities only had really two options. One 

20 was to build coal plants as the economy expanded 

21 in the '70s, '80s, and '90s or build nuke. 

22 After Three Mile Island, there really 

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1 were no more nuke plants built. So coal became 

2 the foundation of the electricity providing 

3 system that we have, the real power behind the 

4 grid. 

5 Coal was plentiful, it was cheap and it 

6 resulted in low-cost and reliability electricity. 

7 The coal mines and power plants provided good 

8 middle class jobs with good benefits. Employees 

9 that work in the coal mines and power plants can 

10 put their kids through college and they can live 

11 comfortable retirements afterwards. These are 

12 exactly the type of jobs that this administration 

13 said it desires, and these are the jobs that are 

14 being destroyed.

15 So what is next? It looks like gas and 

16 renewables, and this is really by default. And 

17 the gas prices have been very volatile in the 

18 past. I've watched them over these past 40 

19 years. Gas pipelines, they explode, have been 

20 shut down, or sabotaged, there's cold weather 

21 there's no storage of gas at power plants. If it 

22 gets interrupted, there's no generation. 

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1 But natural gas is in the line of sight 

2 for people who are -- once the coal industry has 

3 been put out of business, natural gas will be the 

4 next in line. Those tasks have already begun 

5 with fracking. 

6 If you want to see where we're going, 

7 let's look at Germany. Germany shut down the 

8 nuclear plants after Fukushima or shutting down 

9 the nuclear plants. Have gone to heavily 

10 subsidized solar and wind. Whether the installed 

11 capacity of solar power in Germany only 10 

12 percent of the energy of that capacity is 

13 actually able to be produced. And wind in 

14 Germany, it's only 20 percent. Germany is 

15 building more coal plants. Germany is burning 

16 more coal today than it burned in 2005. And 

17 because of these renewable efforts, electricity 

18 in Germany is 40 cent a kilowatt hour. What is 

19 that doing to the people in -- what would that do 

20 to people in this country if we're paying 40 

21 cents a kilowatt hour. That's four times more 

22 than we pay in the United States. Electricity 

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1 would become a luxury item. 

2 Now, we talk about jobs in the windmill 

3 industry and the solar industry, that's mainly 

4 during the construction phase and building these 

5 facilities. But the jobs your grandchildren and 

6 children might have that would probably be 

7 picking up dead birds on their windmills or 

8 washing the windows at the solar plant -- you've 

9 driven by a windmill farm, I don't see anybody 

10 working out there. Rooftop solar collectors 

11 can't even provide enough energy to run your air 

12 conditioning. 

13 So, anyway, and with all the incentives 

14 on the renewable energy, actually producing 

15 electricity from a lot of renewables is just a 

16 byproduct. The real benefit is producing with 

17 the tax benefits that come out of those 

18 facilities.

19 So, if you close all the power plants in 

20 the United States the glaciers aren't going to be 

21 coming back, and the polar bears won't be digging 

22 through garbage cans in Minneapolis in the winter 

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1 time. That's the truth.

2 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Richards. 

3 We have Mr. -- if you could stay up 

4 there. 

5 Mr. Farnsworth?

6 MR. FARNSWORTH: My name is Mark 

7 Farnsworth, F-a-r-n-s-w-o-r-t-h. I am the 

8 general manager of Highline Electric Association 

9 in Holyoke, Colorado. I'd like to thank the EPA 

10 for the opportunity to provide my initial 

11 comments on the proposed clean power plan. 

12 Highline Electric Association was 

13 incorporated in 1938 as an electric cooperative. 

14 Highline serves over 10,750 meters, that's 4,086 

15 members. Highline is governed by an 11-member 

16 board of directors, headquartered in Holyoke with 

17 offices in Sterling and Ovid, Colorado.

18 Highline provides electricity to our 

19 members in northeastern Colorado and western 

20 Nebraska. The service area covers approximately 

21 3,700 square miles with 4,990 miles of overhead 

22 and underground distribution lines with 24 

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1 distribution substations. 

2 We serve residential, stock wells, small 

3 commercial, large commercial, industrial, and 

4 irrigation services. Our power supply is Tri5 State Generation Transmission of which we are 

6 members that share the same concerns that are 

7 discussed by Tri-State. 

8 Tri-State uses a diverse mix of 

9 generation sources including coal, natural gas, 

10 hydroelectric wind, and solar power. In 

11 addition, Highline has developed four megawatts 

12 of wasted recovery generation. We provide net 

13 metering and renewable energy rebates to our 

14 members are who are interested in renewable 

15 energy. We are working with the local irrigation 

16 district in developing a micro-hydro project as 

17 well as a potential solar garden to meet the 

18 needs of our members.

19 Highline is a cooperative and all of our 

20 costs including regulations like the clean power 

21 plan are paid for by our member owners. The cost 

22 of these regulations will be on the back of all 

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1 of our rate classes but a large proportion will 

2 be borne by our rural rate payers. 

3 We serve barely two meters a mile and 

4 these rules will increase costs for our member 

5 owners. Of great concern is our low-income and 

6 fixed income members. A median family spends 

7 about five cents out of every dollar on energy 

8 costs. Low income families spend about 20 cents. 

9 The affordable and reliable electricity our 

10 members utilize is largely coal-fired generation 

11 which has many years of life beyond 2030.

12 The forced early retirement of these 

13 plants will result in expanded costs to our 

14 members. And with the lead times to develop 

15 generation resources could also mean reliability 

16 issues. 

17 It is very unlikely that the reduction of 

18 carbon emissions from this plan will have a 

19 significant impact on worldwide carbon emissions 

20 and thus any impact on climate change.

21 The impact will simply be higher class of 

22 electricity to the people who can least afford it 

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1 as well as negative impact on the economies of 

2 rural Colorado and Nebraska. 

3 I'd like to make comments on two of the 

4 building blocks of the plan. First I would like 

5 to address the increasing amounts of renewable 

6 and nuclear energy to replace coal-fired power. 

7 Highline now receives 20 percent, non-carbon 

8 emitting generation from our power supplier of 

9 which 12 percent is large-scale hydro. In my 

10 travels to Germany to explore their move to 

11 renewable energy large-scale hydro was a part of 

12 their energy transition. 

13 In the U.S. the only hydro that counts is 

14 small-scale hydro. Germany and many in the 

15 environmental community emulate understands that 

16 no matter the size of the dam, any electricity 

17 production is hydro power. We get no credit for 

18 the large-scale hydro we utilize. 

19 The second building block that I would 

20 like to address is increasing energy efficiency. 

21 The forced increase of energy efficiency by 1.5 

22 percent annually assumes that we have not 

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1 advocated for energy efficiency. And that 

2 Highline has not provided the means for our 

3 membership to achieve increased energy 

4 efficiency. 

5 Highline and our power supplier had 

6 provided energy efficiency credits to our members 

7 for many years. Since 2005 we have provided over 

8 $600,000 in efficiency credits to our members for 

9 increasing the efficiency of end-use motors, 

10 lighting, and appliances. Much of the low11 hanging fruit has been achieved. Arbitrary 

12 energy efficiency regulations will not take this 

13 into account and we get no early action credit 

14 for the energy efficiency work that has been 

15 done.

16 It does not take regulations from the EPA 

17 for cooperatives to offer options that will make 

18 the lives of our member owners easier and more 

19 affordable.

20 This plan does not take into account the 

21 makeup of Highline. Highline serves over 50,000 

22 horse powered motors used in compressing natural 

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1 gas, natural gas liquids, and oil. When using a 

2 number of 1.5 percent annually, you cannot take 

3 into account loads that do not have the ability 

4 to increase efficiency.

5 When they are compressing the contents of 

6 the pipelines to move that product, they're as 

7 efficient as possible. When those pipelines are 

8 running at capacity, they can be 30 to 40 percent 

9 of Highline's total kilowatt hours sold. 

10 When you take into account large loads 

11 just mentioned, the energy efficiency work we 

12 have done with the compounding effect of a 1.5 

13 percent annual requirement, we will reach a point 

14 where it is too expensive to meet the 

15 requirements of the plan. 

16 Parts of the plan are flawed and not 

17 achievable as they're designed and the clean 

18 power plan goes beyond the legal authorities of 

19 the Clean Air Act. 

20 This puts the states of Colorado and 

21 Nebraska and Highline's member owners, farmers, 

22 irrigators, and business owners in an untenable 

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1 situation. Thank you.

2 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Farnsworth.

3 And have Ms. Breeze and if we could just 

4 pause for a moment there.

5 We have James Luoddle and Michael Bronner 

6 in the room, if they could go ahead and take a 

7 seat behind the podiums. 

8 MS. BREEZE: Good afternoon. My name is 

9 Cleo Breeze and I'm a retired school 

10 administrator from Denver Public Schools. I'm 

11 here today representing Colorado Black Women for 

12 Political Action where I am the political chair. 

13 We are committed to involving black women in the 

14 entire political process. We work on those 

15 issues that are germane to our entire community. 

16 As you all know, there's a stark 

17 disparity in the United States between those who 

18 benefit from the causes of climate change and 

19 those who bear the costs of climate change.

20 African Americans already are 

21 disproportionately burdened by health effects 

22 including deaths during heat waves, air 

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1 pollution, unemployment, and economic hardships, 

2 all associated with climate change. And all of 

3 those changes fall heavily on our community. 

4 Cities in Florida, Louisiana, New Jersey, 

5 New York, and North Carolina are drowning under 

6 rising sea levels. Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas 

7 City, Missouri, are the hardest hit by heat 

8 waves, where most of us live, or many of our 

9 African American live. 

10 The negative impacts on our communities 

11 (audio disruptions, hitting microphone with 

12 papers) -- air pollution exposure, leads to a 

13 host of health problems. Industrial sites as 

14 Reverend Demmer mentioned earlier, most of those 

15 places are located in our communities. Many of 

16 us live near power plants, oil refineries, waste 

17 management facilities.

18 Mercury exposure. More likely to have a 

19 high level of that again in our community. 

20 Mercury consumption increases the risk of SIDS, 

21 sudden infant death syndrome, it also affects 

22 learning disabilities in children and other 

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1 respiratory problems. 

2 Climate change is a life and death issue 

3 for the poor and community of color. Climate 

4 change is expected to affect human (audio 

5 disruption) in many ways and increases the rate 

6 of infectious diseases, respiratory illnesses 

7 that are related to air pollution and death and 

8 illnesses related to thermal extremes. 

9 Every single priority of the Black agenda 

10 is or can be linked to the changing climate, 

11 health, jobs, education, crime, and income. 

12 Climate change does not affect equally. 

13 Recently a professor of health at 

14 Berkeley who is the lead author of the Climate 

15 Gap stated that people of color, poor people will 

16 be hurt most. But I think most of us know that. 

17 I believe we need to call on our 

18 educators, ministers, non-profits, Greek 

19 organizations, the Congressional Black Caucus, 

20 and you the EPA to move faster. There's an 

21 urgency about it. And I certainly hope that you 

22 will take that into consideration.

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1 We too support the president's plan, but, 

2 again, our major concern is the urgency and not 

3 the time that we're moving at, it's like a 

4 snail's pace. And I know we're probably doing 

5 the best we can, but we need to move faster. If 

6 we protect those who are must vulnerable, we will 

7 protect all of us. 

8 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

9 Mr. Luoddle.

10 MR. LUODDLE: Good afternoon, my name is 

11 Jim Luoddle, I am the Vice Chairman of the Denver 

12 Metro Network of the Sierra Club. We represent 

13 thousands of Sierra Club members and supporters 

14 in the Denver Metropolitan area. Our mission is 

15 to engage and organize our membership in 

16 environmental issues that impact them to explore, 

17 enjoy, and protect the planet. 

18 Certainly the effects of carbon driven 

19 climate change is something that we in Colorado 

20 are experiencing first hand, an ongoing drought 

21 and in its third decade, hot summers, flooding, 

22 destructive hail, and tornados all occurring with 

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1 disturbing regularity, increased smog in our 

2 urban areas, and the impacts all of these things 

3 have on our cities, farms, and wild areas. 

4 I moved to Colorado in 2005 and in that

5 short time I've seen startling changes to the 

6 general weather patterns on the front range. As 

7 a journalist I speak with native Coloradoans who 

8 frequently point to how spring and summer are 

9 coming earlier, how the monsoon pattern that you 

10 used to be able to set your watch by no longer 

11 exists, or in some years completely disappeared 

12 or in the case of this year has come back with a 

13 vengeance. 

14 This is particularly hard on the farmers 

15 and ranchers, especially those who practice dry 

16 land fiber culture and depend on those patterns 

17 for their livelihood. I've seen farmers' crops 

18 dry up in superheated summers and those that 

19 survived it only to see those crops destroyed by 

20 hail and flooding. I've seen cattle ranchers 

21 forced out of business, watched their fields turn 

22 to brown, making them sell their cattle early, 

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1 underfed, underweight, and under valued.

2 For all of us sitting in this room, and 

3 who sit down to a meal in their homes each day we 

4 feel the impacts of these weather events which 

5 with those making their living off the land is no 

6 less than catastrophic. 

7 Beef, pork, and poultry prices are at 

8 all-time highs. The price of staples such as 

9 milk and bread also on the rise. And what of the 

10 price of our health. Breathing dirty air, 

11 drinking dirty water, polluted by coal ash 

12 spills, eating food poisoned by mercury, and 

13 chemicals released by fossil fuels. 

14 The coal industry would argue but we'll 

15 have higher energy prices. But at what price for 

16 the rest? Higher food prices, higher healthcare 

17 costs, not only for everyone in America, but for 

18 the same coal miners that the industry professes 

19 to protect. 

20 Coal miners who make no where near what 

21 they did a generation ago. Coal miners who are 

22 fewer in numbers than they were a generation ago. 

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1 Not because we built a solar farm in Colorado 

2 Springs, but because of mechanization of their 

3 trade. The coal industry has no more loyalty for 

4 their employees than the day's work that they can 

5 pull out of them. But then, again, only until 

6 they can be replaced by a machine. 

7 I'm also a member of the Colorado Trail 

8 Foundation. We maintain the trail from Denver to 

9 Durango, hundreds of dedicated people who work 

10 with the United States Forest Service to give up 

11 their time freely to do the back-breaking work of 

12 keeping the trail free of fallen trees and fixing 

13 erosion problems.

14 Those of us like myself who are 

15 designated trail adopters see the impacts of 

16 climate changes as few others do, beetle kill 

17 brought about by Colorado's decades' long drought 

18 have reeked havoc in the Rocky Mountain forests. 

19 A great amount of my maintenance teams' time is 

20 spent just clearing the trees that fall across 

21 the trail each year from that infestation. You 

22 can walk for miles among trees that have died 

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1 from insect predation or simply withered away 

2 from the lack of water. Every one of these trees 

3 are a danger to backpackers and day hikers who 

4 simply want to enjoy our disappearing wild areas. 

5 The past several years have also seen 

6 those same trees fuel the wildfires that have 

7 ravaged across Colorado and many other western 

8 states. Sections of the trail had to be closed 

9 last year because it was too dangerous to pass 

10 through those areas. 

11 On the other side of the coin, are the 

12 effects of heavy storms and flooding. We've seen 

13 damage to the trail which has our work crews 

14 working constantly to catch up, the damage of 

15 early runoff and flooding this year will keep us 

16 working for years to come. 

17 While some may call trail safety for 

18 backpackers a first world problem, we simply call 

19 it trail safety.

20 These problems are not isolated to the 

21 trail itself, every national park, every 

22 designated wilderness, state parks, city park, 

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1 and community open space face the same problems. 

2 It costs us real tax dollars to maintain and 

3 repair the vast wilderness spaces that were given 

4 to us by the likes of Theodore Roosevelt, David 

5 Brower, and Steven Mather. They're a symbol of 

6 the heights of greatness and the unique lands of 

7 which America possess. Can we continue to do 

8 nothing? I say that price is too high.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

11 Mr. Bronner?

12 MR. BRONNER: My name is Michael Bronner, 

13 I am the owner of Harlequin's Gardens Plant 

14 Nursery in Boulder County. 

15 I believe that nobody should be exempt 

16 from the Clean Air Act. Reducing carbon 

17 emissions should be a high priority for all 

18 businesses and private individuals in the 21st 

19 century. Our nursery is a member of the Colorado 

20 nursery and greenhouse association. Weather has 

21 a huge impact on our nursery and on the 

22 landscaping industry as well. 

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1 2012 was the hottest year on record and 

2 the worst drought nationally in 50 years. We 

3 can't afford many years like that and neither can 

4 our planet. 

5 One of the biggest trends in the last 

6 five years has been home-grown food. But when 

7 temperatures are over 85 degrees, plant 

8 metabolism shuts down and crops don't develop. 

9 This is bad for business and bad for fresh local 

10 food. Heat and drought often go together and 

11 when cities enact watering restrictions, not only 

12 do our profits plummet, but plants start dying 

13 and trees are the most vulnerable plants under 

14 watering restrictions and take a long, long time 

15 to grow back. And the trees are extremely 

16 valuable to save cooling costs in the summer. 

17 In 2002 we saw what happens when we don't 

18 get our regular snowpack and people can't water 

19 their landscapes and vegetables. They put a lot 

20 of green industry people out of business and 

21 trees died. So we want the power companies to 

22 reduce carbon emissions so our climate doesn't 

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1 heat up so much. 

2 Yes, the costs of limiting carbon 

3 pollution will get passed on to us, but these 

4 costs are far less than we will be paying for 

5 cooling our homes and offices; less than for 

6 shipping in food we can't grow, and far less than 

7 the cost to our quality of life. 

8 I've experienced 118 degrees in India and 

9 I've seen how people have to live in Phoenix. We 

10 don't want that here. At our nursery we source 

11 our plants and soil products locally to reduce 

12 carbon emissions from long-distance trucking. 

13 Our greenhouses are heated by solar and 

14 geothermal. We use only organic fertilizers 

15 since highly potent greenhouse gas nitrous oxide 

16 is a byproduct of making chemical fertilizer. 

17 These carbon savings that we are accomplishing at 

18 our nursery are tiny compared to what a coal19 fired power plant can do to reduce carbon in our 

20 atmosphere. But we all have to do our part to 

21 keep our planet livable for our kids, our 

22 grandchildren and for our grandchildren; right?

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1 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

2 Okay. The next speakers are Ed Wingfield 

3 and Monique Dyers, if you could please come on 

4 up. And behind them, if you could take a seat 

5 behind the podium, Rosemary Harris Lytle and Maya 

6 Wheeler if you're in the room, please come on up.

7 And just a reminder to please spell your 

8 name before you start speaking.

9 MR. WINFIELD: My name is Ed Wingfield, 

10 last name W-i-n-g-f-i-e-l-d. 

11 Again my name is Ed Wingfield and I 

12 represent the Colorado Black Chamber of Commerce 

13 Foundation, the generation-wide or millennium 

14 entrepreneur, and more importantly I represent 

15 myself as a supporter of the proposed rules to 

16 cut carbon dioxide pollution.

17 As a small business owner, naturally I 

18 quickly turned to the employment and economic 

19 impacts of such efforts. And what I found was 

20 about five different studies regarding job loss 

21 due to such changes, and about five different 

22 studies on job creation due to innovation and 

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1 green energy. Some showing a net job loss, and 

2 some showing a net job gain. Now, I'm not here 

3 today to say that these proposed changes won't 

4 have an economic impact, because they will. We 

5 all know that some jobs will be lost. We all 

6 know that some jobs will be created, and the 

7 ultimate reality is that it probably won't be as 

8 bad as some of us think. And it won't be as good 

9 as some of us think. But while many of us are 

10 focused on the economic impact of such proposed 

11 changes, there are people who are losing their 

12 lives every day. People whose health is 

13 suffering, air and water quality are diminishing. 

14 Families are losing their homes and businesses to 

15 extreme weather. Entire ecosystems are being

16 affected and the list goes on. 

17 Yes, it's hard to ignore the potential 

18 economic impacts of these changes. But it is 

19 even harder to ignore the effects that climate 

20 change and carbon dioxide pollution will have on 

21 the people we love. The quality of life we want 

22 our grandchildren to enjoy and the ecosystem that 

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1 is responsible for our very being.

2 As people we have always been able to 

3 recover from economic hardship and we should 

4 trust that if this has a negative impact on our 

5 economy that it will only be temporary. I know 

6 that the changes we make today that improve 

7 climate change, carbon dioxide pollution, et 

8 cetera, will have a positive and lasting effect 

9 on our lives in generations to come.

10 In my personal opinion, and as someone 

11 who wants to leave this world a better place, the 

12 long-term benefits outweigh the potential short13 terms costs. I encourage us to make the 

14 necessary changes now for the greater good of our 

15 future and allow innovation, creative minds, and 

16 new business to fill in the gaps.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

19 MS. DYERS: Good afternoon. My name is 

20 Monique Dyers, last name D as in dovetail, y-e-r21 s. And I am a renewable energy consultant.

22 I also serve as a board member of 

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1 Colorado's Utilities Consumer Board and am a 

2 supporter of President Obama's climate change 

3 plan and EPA's reduction in carbon emissions.

4 I would like to note that my opinions 

5 stated today are that of my own as an energy 

6 consultant and may or may not reflect the opinion 

7 of Colorado's Utilities Consumer Board. 

8 From a technical perspective the 

9 combustion of fossil fuels to generate 

10 electricity is the single largest source of CO2 

11 emissions in the nation, accounting for nearly 40 

12 percent of the total U.S. CO2 emissions and 31 

13 percent of total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions.

14 For the first time in history atmospheric 

15 carbon dioxide levels rose above 400 parts per 

16 million in 2013 and again March of 2014.

17 To keep emissions from rising further, 

18 which could lead to catastrophic damages, 

19 substantial reduction in CO2 emissions will be 

20 required which is why the climate change plan is 

21 a necessity.

22 Production of electricity from renewable 

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1 energy sources such as wind and solar are less 

2 destructive to the environment than energy 

3 production through burning of fossil fuels like 

4 oil, natural gas and coal because renewable 

5 energy facilities produce much less emissions of 

6 greenhouse gases and other harmful pollutants as 

7 arsenic, lead and mercury. 

8 Additionally, renewable energy production 

9 may be more cost effective and efficient than 

10 traditional methods because once infrastructure 

11 is built, the amount of energy produced is quite 

12 stable for the remainder of that system's 

13 lifespan. 

14 As we know, most states currently have 

15 renewable portfolio standards requiring utilities 

16 to source a certain amount from renewable energy 

17 sources with Colorado being one of the first 

18 states to create a renewable portfolio standard 

19 with a target of 30 percent by the year of 2030.

20 Further to our attempts to reduce CO2 

21 emissions I applaud the efforts of the U.S. 

22 Department of Energy which announced the issuing 

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1 of a loan guarantee program of up to $4 billion 

2 supporting the following technologies, advanced 

3 grid integration and storage, drop in bio-fuels, 

4 waste to energy projects, energy efficiency 

5 improvement projects, and projects that would 

6 enhance existing hydroelectric facilities.

7 It is for these reasons that I am in 

8 support of EPA's limitation of CO2 emissions from 

9 power plants. To do nothing means that we risk 

10 the health of our community, to do something

11 means we offer better air quality, reduction in 

12 cardiac and respiratory conditions and we leave 

13 the environment in a condition which is better 

14 utilized for future generations to come.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

17 MS. LYTLE: I'm Rosemary Harris Lytle, L18 y-t-l-e. President of the NAACP, Colorado, 

19 Montana, Wyoming State Area Conference. 

20 The state conference coordinates the 

21 civil rights and social justice activities of the 

22 NAACP's 23 chartered units in our three states. 

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1 The NAACP is headquartered in Baltimore, Maryland 

2 and is the nation's oldest and largest civil 

3 rights organization. 

4 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

5 at these important proceedings. And we also 

6 thank President Barack Obama for initiating 

7 policy and public dialogue on this very critical 

8 issue of climate change.

9 The NAACP has a five-point strategic game 

10 changer initiative and climate justice is central 

11 to it. 

12 In our three states NAACPers have spoken 

13 out for clean air in the media and on social 

14 media. Our NAACP youth and college division 

15 members have provided volunteer services to the 

16 cleanup efforts of the black forest fires. And 

17 the NAACP is now organizing, along with our 

18 partner, the Green Cities Coalition, interest 

19 groups in subjects like community gardens and 

20 textile recycling. 

21 Earlier this year our national office 

22 released the report "Coal Blooded" which grades 

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1 states on the impact of coal-fire emissions on 

2 its communities and particularly on communities 

3 of color. 

4 I was truly saddened when I saw that 

5 Colorado's grade in the Coal Blooded report was 

6 F. A state that prizes its physical beauty and 

7 that seemingly values the good health and full 

8 enjoyment of its residents had received a grade 

9 of F. 

10 As the report points out and as we know 

11 fully, 68 percent of Latinos and 75 percent of 

12 African Americans in Colorado live in areas where 

13 air quality is an issue. Our children and our 

14 elders are disproportionately impacted by 

15 pollution and by its effects including 

16 respiratory illnesses like asthma. Besides the 

17 obvious issues, we call this climate injustice. 

18 African Americans and other people of 

19 color have long been advocates of sustainability 

20 and conservation. We had to be. Now we know 

21 that we must take these critical steps to cut 

22 carbon pollution because of our children and our 

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1 elders and because of the way it impacts working 

2 families and because of our obligation to future 

3 generations.

4 We must have more renewable energy, more 

5 energy efficiency, and increasingly innovative 

6 policies that will cut carbon pollution while 

7 creating jobs, sustaining jobs and creating 

8 opportunities for African Americans, for Latinos, 

9 and for all Americans. Thank you so much.

10 MR. JACKSON: Ms. Lytle, just a quick 

11 question for you.

12 MS. LYTLE: Certainly.

13 MR. JACKSON: Do you know if the national 

14 office plans to submit the Coal Blooded report to 

15 the docket of this rulemaking?

16 MS. LYTLE: Yesterday our National 

17 Climate Justice director, Jackie Patterson, 

18 testified before this panel. If she did not 

19 submit that we can certainly make certain that 

20 today you receive a copy of the Coal Blooded 

21 National Report.

22 MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you.

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1 MS. LYTLE: Will do. Thank you.

2 MR. JACKSON: Ms. Wheeler.

3 MS. WHEELER: I'm going to be reading 

4 this off of my phone.

5 Good afternoon. My name is Maya Wheeler, 

6 I am the president of Colorado Black Women for 

7 Political Action. My last name is Wheeler, W-h8 e-e-l-e-r, first name Maya, M-a-y-a.

9 Communities across Colorado are seeing 

10 and feeling the impacts of climate change from 

11 increased health risks like asthma attacks and 

12 respiratory disease to devastating fires and 

13 floods. Sixty-eight percent of Latinos and 75 

14 percent of Blacks live in Colorado where the air 

15 quality in their neighborhoods are not up to par.

16 Nine counties in Colorado are out of 

17 compliance with air pollution regulations, 

18 Denver, Arapaho, Adams, Jeffco, Douglas, Boulder, 

19 Larimer, Wells, and Broomfield. 

20 Air pollution impacts our health. It 

21 increases rates of asthma, respiratory illness, 

22 economy -- our economy, environment, and overall

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1 success of our communities.

2 It was mentioned earlier, according to 

3 the president's task force that African American 

4 children are twice as likely to be hospitalized 

5 and four times likely to die from asthma as white 

6 children.

7 In Colorado alone, air pollution from 

8 dirty fossil fuel contributes to 4,300 hospital 

9 admissions for asthma in 2011 which averaged 

10 almost $20,000 per each stay. Not only do 

11 families have costly hospital bills to manage, 

12 the numerous days kids missed from school and 

13 parents missed from work also add up.

14 Climate change is a civil right issue. 

15 We are seeing its impacts in our own communities 

16 in the forms of record-breaking temperatures, 

17 floods, droughts, hurricanes, and the list goes 

18 on.

19 When your child has to breathe air that 

20 is not up to par, and incurs asthma at a higher 

21 rate, it's a civil rights issue. When 

22 unprecedented weather disasters devastate the 

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1 forest neighborhoods in places like New Orleans, 

2 New Jersey, and New York, it is a civil rights 

3 issue. 

4 When farmers in far-away lands cannot 

5 feed their families because the rain will no 

6 longer come, it is a civil rights issue. 

7 In the civil rights movement we marched 

8 hand in hand, facing dogs and fire hoses, risking 

9 imprisonment, and worse, for the sake of future 

10 generations. The same question is in front of us 

11 today when it comes to climate change. What are 

12 we willing to sacrifice? What are we willing to 

13 do personally to hand down a better world to our 

14 children. 

15 Today I'm here to ask you to please 

16 support the clean air bill. 

17 Thank you. 

18 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

19 Okay. Our next speakers are Rue Mapp and 

20 Robert Bowen, if you could please come on up to 

21 the podium.

22 MS. MAPP: Good afternoon. My name is 

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1 Rue Mapp and I want to thank you for the 

2 opportunity to submit formal testimony regarding 

3 EPA's proposal for a clean power plan.

4 My name is Rue Mapp, as I mentioned, 

5 spelled R-u-e last name M-a-p-p. I'm the founder 

6 and CEO of Outdoor Afro that celebrates and 

7 inspires African American connections to nature. 

8 I am also on the National Wildlife 

9 Federation's California Advisory Committee. And 

10 I live in beautiful Oakland, California, known 

11 for its mild climate, its towering redwoods, its 

12 cultural diversity, abundant wildlife, and their 

13 habitat. And so today I have traveled a great 

14 distance to express my strong support for EPA's 

15 historic action to combat climate change by 

16 setting limits on carbon pollution from existing 

17 power plants.

18 So the primary focus of Outdoor Afro is 

19 to reengage black people with nature and our 

20 heritage within it. We work to disrupt the 

21 perception that people who look like me do not 

22 have a relationship to nature or care about 

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1 wildlife conservation, and climate change. This, 

2 as we heard from the previous testimony is simply 

3 untrue. 

4 Black people remain this country's 

5 largest racial minority with spending power 

6 estimated at $1 trillion estimated for 2015. 

7 With our vote and dollars, we not only 

8 demonstrate that we care about our environment, 

9 but also our frequently on the front lines with 

10 our livelihoods greatly affected by a changing 

11 climate.

12 I believe our warming climate is posing 

13 one of the greatest threats to humans and 

14 wildlife today. And I applaud the EPA for taking 

15 action to combat the root of the problem, carbon 

16 pollution. 

17 Personally, I've witnessed the damage of 

18 extreme weather fueled by climate change close to 

19 home in California. At this very moment my home 

20 state is in severe drought and a fire rages on in 

21 Yosemite, a crown jewel of the national park 

22 system.

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1 This current fire ignites the close 

2 memory of last year's historic rim fire that 

3 destroyed scores of homes, historic landmarks and 

4 camps for generations of urban youth and 

5 families. This current fire has already required 

6 military resource to stem the loss of property 

7 and wildlife habitat and assist in the evacuation 

8 of local residents. And unfortunately this fire 

9 has curbed the ability to recreate in this 

10 pristine wilderness during peak summer 

11 opportunity for many working families.

12 Fortunately through Outdoor Afro in 

13 California and around the country I'm able to 

14 witness the wonder and magic of children and 

15 families engaging in the wide spaces. And right 

16 here I brought with me the face of Emma 

17 experiencing snow for the first time with her 

18 mother Barbara in California's Sierras in the 

19 winter of 2012. As you know, time and nature, 

20 like this treasured experience right here, is a 

21 spark that can help ignite a passion for 

22 conservation for a lifetime.

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1 Unfortunately, this same event, this same 

2 experience was not able to be shared last winter 

3 because of record low snowfall that cancelled 

4 this event and foreshadowed our current severe 

5 drought and fire conditions.

6 You can see a glimpse of why I applaud 

7 and feel so relieved by the possibility of the 

8 EPA to take on much needed steps to reverse the 

9 course we are on. The U.S. EPA's clean power 

10 plan is a major step in the right direction. 

11 This plan will help speed the way toward a future 

12 in which we invest more in wildlife friendly 

13 resources of clean energy and lessen fuels that 

14 pollute our air and water and harm our global 

15 climate. 

16 As you finalize this standard, I ask that 

17 you work to ensure that it achieves the deepest 

18 reductions possible by requiring states to use 

19 wildlife and human-friendly renewable energy and 

20 energy efficiency and not simply more natural gas 

21 burning. 

22 California can and should do more to 

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1 reduce energy demands with energy efficiency and 

2 the EPA should strengthen the standard to reflect 

3 this potential.

4 So thank you for the opportunity to 

5 comment today and Outdoor Afro, in my role as 

6 part of the advisory for the National Wildlife 

7 Federation in California, we look forward to 

8 working with you to finalize and implement the 

9 clean power plan. I feel confident that you will 

10 do everything you can to ensure it stays strong 

11 through the process and wildlife and future 

12 generations are counting on your leadership. 

13 Thank you very much.

14 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Mr. Bowen.

15 MR. BOWEN: My name is Robert Bowen, B-o16 w-e-n. For the last three and a half years I've 

17 been writing a national column for Examiner.com 

18 on green energy. So I've spent hundreds and 

19 hundreds of hours literally of researching the 

20 issue around climate change and around energy.

21 In the 1980s I was a member of the House 

22 of Representatives in Colorado for three terms 

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1 and way back then I introduced multiple pieces of 

2 legislation to deal with SOX and NOX, and 

3 particulates and carbon from utilities. I didn't 

4 get very far. Fortunately the EPA and the 

5 federal government dealt with acid rain and SOX 

6 and NOX but nobody really did anything about 

7 particulates and carbon and still haven't, but at 

8 least you're trying to do it now. 

9 I agree with some of the other speakers 

10 that this whole thing of climate change besides 

11 being destructive for our species and our planet 

12 really is an unequal damager. And I think it's a 

13 civil rights issue, but I think it's a human 

14 rights issue because as people have said, climate 

15 change and the effects of climate change hit the 

16 people at the bottom much harder, much sooner, 

17 and with much more tragic results than it does 

18 people at the top.

19 Sure, climate change is going to hurt 

20 executives of coal companies, owners of coal 

21 companies, it's going to hurt shareholders of 

22 utility companies, but you know they have flood 

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1 insurance and they've got fire insurance, they 

2 have big bank accounts, and they're the first 

3 ones to get a FEMA check when a disaster happens 

4 and they rebuild. 

5 Poor people seldom have flood insurance, 

6 often don't have hazard insurance. Most of them 

7 are renters and they're the last ones to get FEMA 

8 checks when a disaster happens. 

9 Big corporate farmers can get all kinds 

10 of crop, you know, relief from the federal 

11 government. Smaller famers can't. People 

12 growing their own food can't. These things 

13 affect people at the bottom, they affect people 

14 like Native Americans, Blacks, Hispanics, poor 

15 people much harder. And nobody is looking out 

16 for them so the federal government needs to look 

17 out for them. But climate change is going to 

18 kill all of us. We have a sense of urgency.

19 Just while you've been working on these 

20 rules and going around the country ice is melting 

21 at both of the poles, the oceans are getting 

22 warmer, the earth is getting warmer the dome of 

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1 pollution over the earth is getting thicker and 

2 all of these things are getting worse while we're 

3 talking about doing it. These rules should have 

4 been done at the same time that NOX and SOX were 

5 dealt with. They weren't, you're doing it now, 

6 you're to be applauded.

7 I want to speak specifically though about 

8 a couple of things in the regulations that 

9 concern me. And, again, I support them, I'm glad 

10 you're doing them. I understand the arch of the 

11 possible and I wasn't in government. But I'm 

12 concerned that you're using a standard that's a 

13 few years old instead of using 2012 or '13 as 

14 your base. Because I think it weakens the net 

15 result of what the rule does. But, again, if 

16 this is all we can get I support all we can get.

17 Another thing that concerns me is giving 

18 the states too much flexibility. I understand 

19 that that's a big selling point maybe of getting 

20 the rules approved, but it concerns me. Why does 

21 it concern me? We have a little bill you may 

22 have heard of called "The Affordable Care Act" 

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1 and that bill the Supreme Court gave states the 

2 option to opt out of the expansion of Medicare. 

3 So what did 30 out of the 50 states do with 

4 Republican governors and legislators, opted out 

5 of the expansion of Medicare leaving the people 

6 of those states unprotected by this federal law. 

7 If you give those same 30 governors, 

8 those same 30 speakers of the House, those same 

9 30 Senate presidents too much flexibility for 

10 this rule, they will do to that rule what they 

11 did to Medicare expansion -- Medicaid expansion. 

12 So I'm a little bit concerned about that.

13 So as you go forward, I think you really 

14 need to be diligent to make sure that flexibility 

15 doesn't mean obstruction. And beyond that I 

16 support it and it's emergency, so please get it 

17 done.

18 Thank you. 

19 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

20 We'll go ahead and call the next 

21 speakers. We have Michael Holtz and Jeff Dayett

22 up next and if we could also get Steve Stevens 

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1 and Nancy Stalker to take seats behind the 

2 podium, that would be helpful.

3 MR. HOLTZ: Michael Holtz, Light Mover. 

4 Michael and Holtz, H-o-l-t-z. 

5 I am pleased to offer my views today on 

6 your clean power rule.

7 For over 40 years I've been employed by 

8 or have founded and managed energy-related 

9 research, designed consulting and manufacturing 

10 companies including the American Institute of 

11 Architects Research Corporation, the solar energy 

12 research institute here in Golden, Architectural 

13 and Energy Corporation of Boulder, and Light 

14 Mover LLC in Lewisville.

15 I've engaged in all aspects of energy and 

16 environmental research, development, urban 

17 planning and architectural design. I'm here 

18 today to give my whole hearted support and strong 

19 endorsement of the proposed EPA clean power plan 

20 rule. 

21 As one who has devoted his professional 

22 career to improving the energy efficiency and 

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1 increasing the use of renewable sources of energy 

2 to induce environmental impacts on the built 

3 environment, I can say that we are more than 30 

4 years late in proposing these CO2 reduction 

5 requirements and unfortunately we are seeing the 

6 dramatic and disastrous impact of this delay.

7 Today in a few minutes I would like to 

8 encourage all the national, state, and local 

9 policymakers and electric utilities, industrial 

10 concerns and other impacted by this proposed rule 

11 to address equally the supply or source side of 

12 the equation equally with the demand side of the 

13 equation. That is, the proposed rule has two 

14 elements, the state-specific emission-based CO2 

15 reduction goals and the guidelines for 

16 development, submission, and implementation of 

17 state plans. 

18 The first element lays out the state19 specific emissions reduction targets or goals, 

20 while the second element defines the requirements 

21 for development, submission, and implementation 

22 of state plans for achieving those goals. 

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1 And I'll take a break here to agree with 

2 the former Congressman, that the state 

3 flexibility is a huge issue in terms of making 

4 surveillance that they create effective and 

5 lasting CO2 reduction targets and they don't 

6 obstruct what is being attempted here as the 

7 necessary climate reduction -- carbon reduction. 

8 The beauty of the proposed rule is that 

9 it is performance-based, not prescriptive and 

10 allows states to meet their specific performance 

11 target in any manner of their choosing so long as 

12 they're effective and lasting. This performance13 based approach allows states to address the 

14 energy supply side as well as the energy demand 

15 side opportunities within their specific states.

16 Most Americans are unaware that the 

17 building sector is responsible for approximately 

18 48 percent of the total U.S. energy consumption. 

19 According to the U.S. Energy Information Agency 

20 the total U.S. annual energy consumption in 2013 

21 was 95.1 quadrillion BTUs. The building sector 

22 consumed 45.2 quads of that total. 

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1 Transportation sector was second at 26.7 quads, 

2 while the industry consumed only 23.2 quads.

3 As a consequence the building sector 

4 accounts for 44.6 of all CO2 emissions generating 

5 about 2,500 million metric tons CO2 equivalent. 

6 The building sector far exceeds the 

7 transportation and industry sectors in the amount 

8 of CO2 emissions which generate only 1,800 

9 million metric tons for transportation and 1,116

10 metric tons for industry rather. 

11 Relevant to the clean power plan rule the 

12 building sector would again, according to the 

13 U.S. Energy Information Administration, consume 

14 75 percent of all the electricity generated in 

15 the U.S. The industry sector consumes 25 percent 

16 and the annual generation for transportation is 

17 less than 1 percent.

18 It's pretty clear where I'm headed 

19 witness that this analysis. The building sector 

20 is the single largest consumer of energy in the 

21 U.S., the largest emitter of CO2 and the largest 

22 user of electricity. Consequently it would 

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1 behoove states in preparing their compliance 

2 plans to look closely at the energy use of the 

3 building sector in their states and to propose 

4 strategies for improving the energy efficiency of 

5 new and existing buildings and a transition to 

6 renewable sources. These strategies could 

7 include financial incentives for integrating 

8 energy efficiency technology into existing 

9 residential and commercial buildings, more 

10 stringent building energy codes, home and 

11 commercial building and energy rating and 

12 labeling system, designer education, and so on.

13 The point I'm making is that this rule 

14 does not dictate how states must meet the CO2 

15 reduction targets and allows for great 

16 flexibility an innovation. However, I would urge

17 all states to seriously take a closer look at 

18 both energy supply-side opportunities and energy 

19 demand-side opportunities. 

20 My last comment is to those who oppose 

21 this EPA clean power plan rule. I encourage them 

22 to consider the ancient native American parable, 

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1 "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, 

2 we borrow it from our children." 

3 We have run out of time to solve the 

4 climate change crisis. We are now in a desperate 

5 race to save the planet. 

6 I appreciate the opportunity to talk to 

7 you and answer any questions you may have.

8 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Holtz.

9 Mr. Dayett.

10 MR. DAYETT: Hi. Good afternoon. Thank 

11 you for the opportunity to testify today in 

12 support of strong carbon pollution standards for 

13 existing power plants. 

14 My name is Jeff Dayett and I am the 

15 assistant Director for Energy Research at the 

16 Union of Concerned Scientists. UCS is the 

17 nation's leading science-based non-profit working 

18 for a healthy environment and a safer world.

19 First, on behalf of the more than 9,400 

20 supporters in Colorado, and our more than 450,000 

21 supporters across the nation, I want to say that 

22 we strongly support the Environmental Protection 

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1 Agency's efforts to limit carbon emissions from 

2 fossil fuels -- excuse me -- from fossil fuel 

3 powered plants under the Clean Air Act.

4 Human-induced climate change is already 

5 having a significant impact on our planet that 

6 are being felt by families, businesses, and 

7 communities here in the United States and all 

8 around the world. If we collectively fail to make 

9 deep reductions in our carbon emissions we will 

10 greatly increase risks of serious economic, 

11 health, and environmental damage from accelerated 

12 seal level rise, storm surges, heat waves, 

13 droughts, wildfires, more frequent heavy 

14 downpours, and increased hurricane intensity. 

15 Our children and future generations will 

16 be left facing the consequences caused by our 

17 failure to act today. 

18 These impacts are a direct consequence of 

19 the increasing concentration of greenhouse gases 

20 like carbon dioxide in our planet's atmosphere. 

21 Power plants are the single largest source of CO2 

22 emissions in the United States representing about 

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1 40 percent of the total.

2 Heat productions and emissions from the 

3 electric power sector are therefore critical to 

4 our overall efforts to mitigate climate change.

5 These facts compel us to act and to act 

6 decisively in accelerating the transition to a 

7 truly low-carbon economy we must recognize the 

8 regional differences and complexities within the 

9 electric power system and take full advantage of 

10 the diverse set of cost effective climate11 friendly resources that we have at our disposal. 

12 The proposed carbon standard of the clean 

13 power plan for existing power plants does just 

14 that by providing a sound and defensible 

15 framework for reducing emissions from the 

16 electricity sector. Specifically UCS supports 

17 EPA's proposal to incorporate outside the fence 

18 measures within the building block approach for 

19 reducing emissions. 

20 This provides a flexible framework for 

21 states to decide how best to achieve their 

22 emission rate reduction targets cost effectively 

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1 including the use of renewable energy and energy 

2 efficiency. By allowing states to use renewables 

3 and efficiency for compliance, it is a smart 

4 strategy that builds on the successes of what 

5 states are already doing and have been doing for 

6 more than a decade.

7 Renewable resources such as wind, solar, 

8 and geothermal emit no carbon and are delivering 

9 safe, reliable, and affordable power to consumers 

10 throughout the United States today. Combined 

11 with investments of energy efficiency they can 

12 stabilize electricity prices, save consumers 

13 money, improve public health, and strengthen 

14 state and local economies. They also help 

15 diversify the electric power mix and could reduce 

16 the risks of relying too heavily on natural gas 

17 for our power supply, something that many states 

18 today are moving towards. 

19 UCS also supports the EPA's proposal to 

20 allow the option for states to comply on a multi21 state regional basis. This not only rewards 

22 early actors like the northeast states 

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1 participating in the regional greenhouse gas 

2 initiative, but also creates an opportunity for 

3 new and/or expanded multi-state collaborations 

4 that can drive down emissions at even lower 

5 costs.

6 However, UCS believes that the EPA is not 

7 being ambitious enough in the overall result of 

8 the 30 percent reduction in emissions in 2030 

9 relative to 2005. Our own UCS analysis shows 

10 that we can affordably and reliably achieve twice 

11 that level, 60 percent reduction in emissions in 

12 2030 relative to 2005.

13 One of the areas where the draft standard 

14 can be strengthened is within the renewables 

15 building block. While EPA sought to determine 

16 the best system of emission reductions under each 

17 of the four building blocks in establishing 

18 emission rate reduction goals for each state, 

19 what is proposed under the renewables building 

20 block is really more of an average system of 

21 emission reductions. It seriously under 

22 estimates the true potential for renewable energy 

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1 to cost effectively cut carbon emissions. 

2 Aggregated nationally, EPA's state renewable 

3 energy targets result in little more renewables 

4 deployment by 2030 than what the U.S. Energy 

5 Information Administration under its business as 

6 usual projections.

7 In fact, six states already had enough 

8 renewable generation in 2013 to fulfill their 

9 renewable energy building block target for 2013. 

10 The same goes for the 29 states that have 

11 renewable electricity standards in place; 21 of 

12 them, including here in Colorado would have to do 

13 little or nothing more than to achieve the 

14 current RES targets in order to meet or exceed 

15 the proposed targeted EPA use to calculate their 

16 emission reductions requirements for 2030.

17 In conclusion, I would like to commend 

18 EPA's efforts to design a sensible and flexible 

19 standard for reducing carbon emissions from 

20 existing power plants and for engaging in 

21 transparent rulemaking process that is open to 

22 all stakeholders. As the EPA works towards the 

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1 2015 -- June 2015 deadline for finalizing the 

2 rules, I urge you to build on the proposed 

3 framework by increasing the overall emission 

4 reductions through strong state targets. A 

5 strong power plant carbon standard is critical to 

6 protecting the health and well-being of our 

7 families and communities as well as that of 

8 future generations. Thank you.

9 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Dayett. I 

10 have one quick question for you. You mentioned 

11 that UCS had their own analysis on a more 

12 accelerated timeline for the reductions, do you 

13 guys plan to submit that to the --

14 MR. DAYETT: Yes, we'll be submitting 

15 detailed comments by October 16th. We'll include 

16 that.

17 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

18 Ms. Stalker?

19 MS. STALKER: My name is Nancy Stalker. 

20 I'm speaking today through the Volunteer 

21 Conservation Committee of the Audubon Society of 

22 Greater Denver, generally called Denver Audubon.

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1 Denver Audubon is a grassroots 

2 conservation organization with about 3,000 

3 members in the metro Denver area. We are also a 

4 certified chapter of the National Audubon 

5 Society. 

6 Our mission is to connect people with 

7 nature through education, conservation and 

8 research. Thank you for this opportunity to 

9 speak. 

10 Denver Audubon supports the EPA's 

11 proposed carbon pollution emission guidelines for 

12 electric utility generating units for both 

13 existing stationary sources and for modified and 

14 reconstruction station sources.

15 We appreciate the flexibility you're 

16 offering the states by letting them figure out 

17 how to reach the goals that have been set for 

18 them. Personally I was surprised to see how 

19 badly Colorado rates compared to other states 

20 because I've heard so much about all the efforts 

21 we're making to reduce pollution. 

22 Climate change is happening. Our world 

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1 has been getting hotter and the rate of heating 

2 is increasing. During the 20th century, the 

3 temperature of the earth's surface increased 1.08 

4 degree Fahrenheit. Since the 21st century began 

5 the temperature of the earth's surface has 

6 increased another .25 degrees Fahrenheit, nearly 

7 double the average rate of temperature increase 

8 over the previous century.

9 The health, comfort, and environmental 

10 impacts of such increases are appalling as the 

11 EPA laid out in the information supplied with 

12 this proposal. Controlling carbon dioxide 

13 emissions and the related heating of our earth is 

14 essential for the well-being of humans and for 

15 the ecological systems of species we depend on as 

16 well as the ones that we just enjoy. 

17 In addition to the health, environment, 

18 and food supply concerns that should be shared by 

19 all people regarding climate change Denver 

20 Audubon has a number of Colorado or western, 

21 southwestern specific concerns. Although

22 rainfall may not change in most parts of 

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1 Colorado, the rate of evaporation will increase 

2 as temperatures rise. This will routinely 

3 increase the evaporative losses from the surfaces 

4 of our rivers, lakes, and reservoirs. It also 

5 means the amount of water needed to maintain our 

6 ecosystems and agriculture is increased. 

7 As Colorado has experienced in the recent 

8 past, catastrophic weather events like floods, 

9 droughts, wildfires, will be even more common and 

10 more intense.

11 Colorado could lose a number of high

12 altitude native wildlife and plant species. Just 

13 to give a few examples that people are familiar 

14 with, the white-tailed ptarmigan, the Pica, 

15 arctic gentian, and the alpine forget-me-not. 

16 Changing in the timing of spring runoff 

17 may take a high toll on aquatic species and on 

18 birds. Runoff changes will certainly impact our 

19 irrigation-based agricultural industry. 

20 Migration is triggered by a number of factors, 

21 but the timing of migration has evolved over a 

22 very extended period of time to enable the 

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1 migratory species to take advantage of abundant 

2 food supplies when they arrive at their 

3 destination. 

4 Climate change may result in a mismatch 

5 between the timing of species arrival and nesting 

6 or birthing sites and the availability of their 

7 food supply there.

8 Denver Audubon recognizes the difficulty 

9 these standards may place on some members of the 

10 coal industry. Their position may be similar to 

11 that of the workforce that made typewriters early 

12 in the age of computers. Times change. It's 

13 difficult. But often careers needs to change as 

14 well. We trust these impacted workers will be 

15 given appropriate resources to help them make 

16 these changes as others have in the past. 

17 Thank you for moving forward with 

18 standards that will substantially reduce our 

19 carbon footprint and hopefully slow the rate of 

20 climate change.

21 I do have some of the concerns that have 

22 been mentioned by previous speakers about 

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1 flexibility not resulting in ultimately a lack of 

2 compliance with the standards proposed. In the 

3 long run human needs will best be met by going 

4 forward with these proposals. Thank you.

5 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Did Steve 

6 Stevens happen to arrive? Is he in the room?

7 Okay. We're going to take an 

8 approximately 20 minute break and reconvene at 

9 3:30. So, please return promptly at 3:30.

10 (Brief recess taken at 3:10 p.m.)

11 (Record resumes at 3:30 p.m.)

12 MR. JACKSON: Again, thanks for 

13 everyone's patience. If we could have Tom Hunt, 

14 Karen Gados, come on up and behind them if you 

15 could take seat Alicia Miers, and Carl Hansel. 

16 And I should have done this up front, but 

17 I apologize for the pronunciations. I'm doing 

18 the best I can, but it's not always easy. 

19 All right. Mr. Hunt, go ahead. 

20 MR. HUNT: Thank you. My name is Tom 

21 Hunt and I am a with Clean Energy Collective. We 

22 are the nation's largest welfare community solar 

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1 projects and sharing the stage with another 

2 community solar developer. So, I think we'll tag 

3 team this a little bit. 

4 But community solar is a product where 

5 people who are not able or are unwilling to put 

6 solar panels on top of their roof are able to 

7 access the benefits and the renewable energy that 

8 comes with owning a solar.

9 I'm here today speaking not just for 

10 myself, but also for the the 80 employees of 

11 Clean Energy Collective. Not only our 80 direct

12 employees but across the hundreds of contractors, 

13 electricians and others that we hire to 

14 manufacture and install power arrays. And then 

15 also our thousands of customers. These are 

16 thousands of people who have bought into our 

17 arrays and recognize the benefits of owning and 

18 (audio disruption) --

19 And we know that this matters a lot to 

20 their economy -- to them, you know, in terms of 

21 putting things on top -- in terms of having an 

22 ownership in asset that is a long terms bill 

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1 credit for them, but I think they also recognize 

2 the benefits to their communities have the growth 

3 of clean energy.

4 We know that from each one megawatt array 

5 that we stand up, over $25 million of power 

6 payments will be generated over the course of the 

7 lifetime of that project. And because it's owned 

8 by people who do businesses within the community, 

9 that's $25 million that stays within that 

10 community instead of going to energy production 

11 that may not be anywhere tied to the neighbors 

12 and businesses who live and work there. 

13 So because of that we are excited to see 

14 the EPA propose the clean power plan and we 

15 support the EPA's efforts. We urge the EPA to 

16 implement the plan strongly and quickly and 

17 effectively. 

18 Also I want to recognize the EPA has done 

19 what they proposed. Offer states flexibility in 

20 what they do and reward states for being 

21 innovative and creative. And I think that's 

22 something that we strongly support and we urge 

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1 the EPA to do that for the furthest extent 

2 possible. I say this because we are more 

3 definitely a beneficiary of innovative and 

4 creative clean energy policy. As I said, we have 

5 80 employees now. That's a number that was grown 

6 from just one in 2009. 

7 So over the past five years we've seen 

8 exponential growth and I that's directly because 

9 of innovative policy you see in Colorado.

10 In 2010 Colorado passed the Community 

11 Solar Gardens Act in Colorado. And that opened 

12 up the door to business and financial innovation 

13 behind community solar gardens which has allowed 

14 us to grown from that 1 percent to 80, and from 

15 the one project to be worked on in Colorado to 

16 over 40 projects now across eight states. And I 

17 think that last part is important too. I 

18 recognize you give states the flexibility to do 

19 this and if they do so and do it in ways that 

20 reward innovation and come up with new ideas and 

21 new policies, they're going to see economic 

22 growth for decades. They're going to see that 

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1 they are forming the companies within those 

2 states in response to the policies that can then 

3 export those ideas and that economic growth to 

4 other states and really establish and industry 

5 that's going to be a foundation, as I said, for 

6 decades to come.

7 So because of that, again, we strongly 

8 support what you're doing. We would, again, urge 

9 the flexibility and innovation that you are 

10 allowing and encouraging within the states. And 

11 the last thing I would say is that I encourage 

12 you to use the tools that you have here to 

13 further the growth of customer-owned energy.

14 When we see customers being involved in 

15 their energy solutions as you are with community 

16 solar, they're being much more tied to the 

17 decisions they're making. They're recognizing 

18 the impacts that they have, both in terms of 

19 emissions that may be coming (audio disruption) -

20 - or not coming form them, but also how much it 

21 really affects their bottom line. And they 

22 recognize that they can invest in something 

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1 that's locking in their energy costs for many 

2 years, it's really a smart decision for them and 

3 it's something that they're going to be 

4 benefitting from.

5 So I'll close with that and just say that 

6 Clean Energy Collective is a strong beneficiary 

7 of clean energy policies like the clean power 

8 plan, our customers are beneficiaries of it and I 

9 think the states where we operate are 

10 beneficiaries as well. Thank you. 

11 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

12 MS. GADOS: Thank you for having us here 

13 today. I am honored to be representing our 

14 company Sunshare and also to be here with our 

15 colleague Clean Energy Collective who is another 

16 community solar company here in the Colorado area 

17 and elsewhere.

18 MR. JACKSON: Sorry to interrupt, could 

19 you spell you name?

20 MS. GADOS: Yes, My name is Karen, K-a-r21 e-n, last name G-a-d-o-s. 

22 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

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1 MS. GADOS: This week the EPA ruling is 

2 setting up a new playing field for renewable 

3 energy through policies like the clean power plan

4 that allows new business and models to create 

5 clean energy solutions. 

6 So I want to tell the Sunshare story to 

7 contextualize what I mean by this. Three years 

8 ago before the Community Solar Gardens Act was 

9 passed, what we were doing and what our 

10 colleagues the Clean Energy Collective were doing 

11 was actually illegal because we are private 

12 companies selling energy to the community, and 

13 that wasn't allowed. Once the 2010 Community 

14 Solar Gardens Act was passed, our company was 

15 founded in 2011 in Colorado Springs and we 

16 created a program with Colorado Springs 

17 utilities. 

18 Our first project sold out in a record 

19 ten weeks and we subscribed more people in that 

20 time than had participated in El Paso County in 

21 any solar program in the past ten years combined.

22 So it really shows the pent-up interest 

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1 in renewable energy in an area as conservative as 

2 Colorado Springs.

3 Now, a few years later, there are 11 

4 utilities with community solar projects across 

5 the state and according to the latest count by 

6 the International Renewable Energy Council 16 

7 states with community solar programs under 

8 development or on line in some ways following 

9 Colorado's lead in this area.

10 Most interestingly we now have community 

11 solar programs opening up in at least one state 

12 that we know of that is unlimited. It's just 

13 based on customer demand. Now, none of that 

14 would be possible if we didn't have policy that 

15 allowed these kind of programs. 

16 Some people say new policy will destroy 

17 jobs and destroy the economy, but we want to 

18 offer a different view today. Between our full19 time staff, subcontractors, and construction 

20 workers, we're employing over 100 people this 

21 fall during the construction of our projects. 

22 And this doesn't even include the ancillary jobs 

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1 created in the greater Denver metro area.

2 Another important point is that for the 

3 first time we are activity selling unsubsidized 

4 energy to our customers. Meaning that when we 

5 apply to our projects, we did not ask for any 

6 state or local incentives. So people that we're

7 selling energy to in the Denver metro area are 

8 now able to buy energy from solar at the same 

9 price that they're buying coal energy and not 

10 requiring any additional incentives.

11 Our customer demands is huge, but we are 

12 limited in how many projects that we're able to 

13 build based on our utility partners and 

14 policymakers. We've come a long way since our 

15 business model was not allowed three years to to 

16 having community solar -- successful community 

17 solar companies crop all over the state and now 

18 across the nation. 

19 Policies like the clean power plan will 

20 promote more change. New policies create new 

21 businesses which create new economies and remove 

22 the barriers that prevent companies from forming. 

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1 We encourage the adoption of the clean power 

2 plan.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

5 Do we have Alicia Miers and Carl Hansel 

6 in the room? Come on up?

7 MS. MIERS: Hi, Alicia Miers, A-l-i-c-i-a 

8 M-i-e-r-s. I'm here today representing the 

9 Alliance of Nurses for a Healthy Environment. 

10 I'm an R.N. and a mother of two young 

11 children. And therefore I have a great interest 

12 in public health issues. My foremost public 

13 health concern is climate change. I worry about 

14 what the future holds for my children and other 

15 children; what will our planet be like in 2030? 

16 2030, the time line that you have proposed to cut 

17 carbon pollution from power plants. What type of 

18 biodiversity will the planet have? Will polar 

19 bears still exist? Will the coastlines of our 

20 country have changed? Will there be enough clean 

21 water and food for the world's growing 

22 population? These are the things I think about. 

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1 I support your proposal and I'm very 

2 grateful that national efforts are being made to 

3 reduce carbon pollution. 

4 My family is also taking steps. We've 

5 installed solar panels on our home and for most 

6 months out of the year we produce more energy 

7 than we consume.

8 I believe each of us has an obligation to 

9 reduce our carbon footprint to ensure the health 

10 of our planet for future generations and for 

11 other humans and other species who also have a 

12 right to live. 

13 As a nurse I intuitively know that the 

14 health of our environment and human health is 

15 intimately connected. 

16 For those who work in the fossil fuel 

17 industry, and oppose your clean power plan I am 

18 truly sorry at the threat to their livelihood.

19 I grew up in West Virginia, I'm the 

20 daughter of a coal miner. Both of my 

21 grandfathers and two of my uncles are retired 

22 from the mines. So, coal miners are a big part 

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1 of my past and of my heart. But intuitively I 

2 know that we must change. I'm confident that all 

3 the hard work by the EPA will pay off and I thank 

4 you for your efforts to reduce carbon pollution.

5 I'd like to end with a quote from E. O. 

6 Wilson who is a Pulitzer Prize Winner. He wrote, 

7 "The Future of Life." "I hope that I have 

8 justified the conviction shared by many 

9 thoughtful people from all walks of life that the 

10 problem can be solved. Adequate resources exist. 

11 Those who control them have many reasons to 

12 achieve that goal, at least their own security. 

13 In the end, however, success or failure will come 

14 down to an ethical decision, one on which those 

15 now living will be defined and judged for all 

16 generations to come. I believe we will choose 

17 wisely.

18 A civilization able to envision God and 

19 to embark on the colonization of space will 

20 surely find the ways to save the integrity of 

21 this planet and the magnificent life it harbors."

22 Thank you. 

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1 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

2 Mr. Hansel?

3 MR. HANSEL: Yeah, hi, my name is Carl 

4 Hansel here representing nobody but myself, 

5 really.

6 Briefly about me, in my life I'm 50-some 

7 years old now. I've made an effort to minimize 

8 my negative impact on the planet and maximize my 

9 positive influences and contributions. Like 

10 Alicia and her family I'm doing solar at home and 

11 I'm basically a net provider to the grid or my 

12 home is a net provider to the grid. And that was 

13 actually a deliberate decision to do that. It 

14 perhaps doesn't make economic sense from some 

15 points of view, but it makes all the sense in the 

16 world to me. We have both solar thermal and 

17 solar PV at home, so we're able to provide heat 

18 and electricity. We do connect to the grid and 

19 we do supply that grid with our excess.

20 Also I'm a bicycle commuter and I use 

21 public transit whenever I can seeking to further 

22 minimize my negative impacts. 

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1 I very much support the EPA's proposals. 

2 I'm anxious to see the EPA tackle the 

3 transportation sector as well as electric 

4 generation. I think in the pie charts I've seen 

5 the transportation is close on the heels of 

6 electrical generation. I find personally that's 

7 one of the easiest things for us to tackle, 

8 transportation is a more personal choice. Where 

9 we get our energies for electricity at home is 

10 possibly not as easy to deal with as 

11 transportation. So I think there's great strides 

12 that can be made there.

13 The only other comment I would have, I'm 

14 concerned, I saw that there were a limited number 

15 of hearings for testimonies like this and I 

16 didn't see any on the west coast. So, I'm 

17 concerned. I know there's people on the west 

18 coast that would probably like to testify. I 

19 would not encourage those people to go further 

20 east than they are. People should be able to 

21 testify close to home.

22 Thank you very much.

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1 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

2 Okay. Our next speakers if I could call 

3 up two to the podium and two to the chairs 

4 behind. The first two to the podiums are Marsha 

5 Eldridge and Lauren Poole, are they here? 

6 Lauren? Okay. 

7 And then could I also have Yana Kucher 

8 and Kay Parker to the chairs immediately behind 

9 the podiums. And I think we got a little out of

10 order, so Kai Albacus and Robert Parker, we'll 

11 get to you just as soon as these folks are 

12 finished. 

13 Ms. Eldridge, go ahead.

14 MS. POOLE: I'm Lauren Poole, I'm -- is 

15 it that time?

16 MR. JACKSON: Yeah, you're fine.

17 MS. POOLE: I'm the executive director of 

18 the Energy Efficiency Business Coalition here in 

19 Colorado. We are a trade organization that 

20 represents over 100 businesses that generate over 

21 a billion dollars in revenue for the state. Our 

22 members are manufacturers, distributors, energy 

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1 auditors, home performance contractors and 

2 commercial energy service providers. We already 

3 work with utilities like Xcel Energy and 

4 municipalities to develop effective energy 

5 efficiency programs and we're ready to offer 

6 solutions to utilities now to help them meet 

7 their carbon emission reduction goals. 

8 Many of our members have systems in place 

9 to measure energy performance for command site 

10 management. And our companies are prepared to 

11 offer their experience and expertise to the EPA 

12 and the state of Colorado throughout your planned 

13 development process. So we urge the EPA, as it 

14 develops it 111(d) guidelines to tap into the 

15 existing energy efficiency policies and programs 

16 and even expand on those. Doing so would be a 

17 win/win/win for the state of Colorado. It would

18 save consumers millions of dollars, even if rates 

19 go up they would still save money because they 

20 would significantly reduce their energy 

21 consumption. It would increase business revenue 

22 which would create thousands of jobs. And it 

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1 would also reduce millions of metric tons of 

2 carbon emissions. So it would meet your goal and 

3 help the state significantly. So we urge you to 

4 make energy efficiency a key component of your 

5 guidelines as you move forward and please 

6 remember that we are here to assist you should

7 you need help and I'd be happy to give you 

8 contact information if you desire.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

11 Yes, come on up.

12 MS. KUCHER: My name is Yana Kucher, 

13 that's Y-a-n-a K-u-c-h-e-r. I live in Denver and 

14 I'm the mother of a six-year-old boy and both he 

15 and I are very concerned about climate change and 

16 have seen some of its effects already with our 

17 own eyes. And I hate the moments when I need to 

18 explain to him what some of the reasons are that 

19 we are seeing these impacts on our environment. 

20 I know that moving forward with strong 

21 limits on carbon pollution from coal plants is 

22 one of the best ways that we can slow these 

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1 effects of global warming, so I support your 

2 plan, the clean power plan and urge you to move 

3 forward with it.

4 Thank you. 

5 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

6 Okay. Ms. Parker?

7 MS. PARKER: Hi, I'm Kay Parker, that's 

8 K-a-y P-a-r-k-e-r. I live in Cokedale, Colorado 

9 on the Arkansas River. It's a pleasure to speak 

10 to you folks today and I thank you for this 

11 opportunity.

12 I have asthma. My asthma is allergy 

13 induced. I feel very fortunate that there 

14 medications which control my asthma. I have only 

15 been in the emergency room once because of 

16 asthma. 

17 My eldest son also has asthma. I spent 

18 nights holding him or sleeping on the floor 

19 beside his bed praying for morning to come so we 

20 could get to the doctor. His asthma was and 

21 still is much worse than mine. And now his 

22 oldest son has asthma and Owen's asthma is worse 

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1 than his dad's.

2 Not being able to breathe is terrifying. 

3 You feel panicked and helpless. You believe 

4 these may be the last moments of your life. As I 

5 am sure you're aware, asthma is on the rise. In 

6 the last decade it is up from 7.3 percent of the 

7 population to 8.4 percent. Climate change is 

8 contributing to this increase. Smog, wildfires, 

9 smoke increased dust particles in the air, more 

10 mold spores, and fungi due to more precipitation 

11 in areas, more pollen and longer allergy seasons 

12 due to warmer temperatures, increased frequency 

13 of droughts, and windy dry air are all 

14 contributions to asthma.

15 The increased CO2 and methane in the 

16 atmosphere is causing our climate change. And 

17 this climate change is increasing the rate of 

18 asthma.

19 As I mentioned, there are medications to 

20 help control asthma. They are expensive. It's a 

21 burden on my budget to buy these medicines. 

22 There are many folks out there who simply can't 

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1 afford them at all. It hurts my heart to think 

2 how many out there are suffering with lung and 

3 breathing problems because care is beyond their 

4 reach.

5 My children and grandchildren are one of 

6 the most precious parts of my life. I want them 

7 and all children to be able to live and grow in a 

8 clean and healthy environment. That is a right 

9 they deserve. Please pass the clean power plan. 

10 I applaud all the work you've done, now it needs 

11 to become a reality. 

12 Someone said, and I can't remember the 

13 name of the person who said it, so I can't give 

14 them credit, and I'm going to paraphrase it, if 

15 we act as if climate change is real and work to 

16 make our environment and planet healthy and it 

17 turns out climate change isn't real, then we'll 

18 have a cleaner planet. If we at as if climate 

19 change isn't real and do nothing, and it turns 

20 out climate change is real, then boom, we all 

21 lose, humanity, the environment, and the planet.

22 So we have nothing to lose reducing the 

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1 CO2 going into our atmosphere and we have 

2 everything to gain. Please pass the clean power 

3 plan. 

4 Thank you. 

5 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 

6 Kai, okay.

7 MR. ABELKIS: My name is Kai Abelkis, K8 a-i, last name A-b-e-l-k-i-s. I am a 

9 sustainability coordinator at a community 

10 hospital here in Colorado. And I'm really here 

11 to speak as a healthcare worker, but also as 

12 someone who is working to integrate 

13 sustainability into the healthcare industry.

14 And what I was hoping to get on the 

15 record was the notion that we once and for all 

16 look at the environment as our only life support 

17 system and that we tie every policy going forward 

18 into how does it affect human health in general.

19 And as you might have read in Minnesota, 

20 they are currently working to update their 

21 abilities to look at externalities of coal power 

22 plants to take a look at what the cost of coal 

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1 power plants are in regards to the healthcare 

2 issues that face Minnesotans and across the 

3 country. 

4 And to me going forward really the policy 

5 of this administration and future administrations 

6 should be how does coal power plant affect human 

7 health, what are those externalities, how is that 

8 borne out in the healthcare industry, and how is 

9 that borne out in society in general?

10 And therefore, those kind of policies are 

11 socialized, those kinds of commitments, your 

12 commitment to reducing coal power plants is not 

13 something that is historical, but that becomes 

14 part of how we go about creating policy by 

15 looking at human health.

16 I will tell you right now, if you want to 

17 reduce health care costs in this country there 

18 are two things. One is food policy, or more 

19 specifically, one is looking at pollution. And I 

20 would like to propose right here, right now that 

21 this U.S. government proposes that one day we 

22 have zero pollution in this country so that we 

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1 can ensure that we have a healthy, again, our 

2 life support system is allowed to support us, our 

3 inalienable right to live life, if you will. 

4 And, again, thank you for your time.

5 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Mr. Parker?

6 MR. PARKER: My name is Robert Parker. 

7 That's P-a-r-k-e-r. I live in Cokedale, 

8 Colorado beside the Arkansas River in Big Horn 

9 Sheep Canyon. This was not an easy trip for my 

10 family to come here today. My travel time here 

11 and back home is taking a full day and most of it 

12 was in torrential rain.

13 But we are getting 48.8 miles per gallon 

14 and we carpooled to keep our carbon footprint to 

15 a minimum. Yet, we are indeed lucky that we are 

16 at least able to make the trip. I imagine there 

17 are thousands who cannot be here simply because 

18 of economic and distance factors.

19 Thank you for allowing me to speak on 

20 this, the most important issue of our lives. 

21 Before I go any further, what you, the 

22 EPA is doing, is not only right, it is absolutely 

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1 necessary. Put me down in support of these new 

2 regulations and guidelines. I only wish you 

3 could take this way further. The damage to the 

4 atmosphere, the temperature and the environment 

5 that the CO2 and methane pollution, these coal6 fired and natural gas-fired power plants are 

7 creating is increasing exponentially while the 

8 fix we are discussing today will in no way keep 

9 up with the pollution and disasters they are 

10 causing.

11 I am 65 years old. I am an artist and a 

12 sculptor. My entire life has been dedicated to 

13 bringing beauty into the world in my own small 

14 way. As an artist I have spent thousands of 

15 hours in our national parks and other pristine 

16 and beautiful places. They have made me a whole 

17 human being. 

18 During the 1980s I was the archeological 

19 artist at Mesa Verde National Park. I founded my 

20 art gallery in the park. The park was covered 

21 with pinion and juniper forests with many 

22 thousands of trees over 800 years old. Before I 

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1 was at Mesa Verdi, during the 82 years the Park 

2 Service was keeping records, there were fires 

3 that burned a total of around 5,000 acres. After 

4 I left in 1988 between then and now almost 29,000 

5 acres have burned, destroying over half of the 

6 park. Those thousands of 800-year-old trees 

7 poof, gone, char. 

8 Over the years since 1988 I watched our 

9 greatest national treasures burn. Mesa Verdi 

10 that I just discussed, Yellowstone burned almost 

11 a million acres, or 45 percent of the park 

12 burned. Yosemite where as I speak over 2,700 

13 acres are burning. And since 1990 another 

14 140,000 acres have burned, just to name a few. 

15 I cared, so I became a firefighter as 

16 well as a sculptor. I was trained to fight 

17 structure fires and wildfires. As a wildfire 

18 fighter, I fought federally managed fires 

19 throughout Colorado in Wyoming, Montana, and on 

20 the Native American lands in North Dakota and in 

21 South Dakota. 

22 This is hard, personally seeing what 

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1 climate change is doing to our lands, our 

2 forests, and our communities. In the 1960s 

3 Colorado averaged about 460 fires a year for 

4 about 8,000 acres burning annually. Since the 

5 1980s fires in the west have increased 300 

6 percent and annual acreage burned has increased 

7 by 500 percent. 

8 In the past two years alone, almost 

9 354,000 acres have burned in Colorado. In those 

10 conflagrations, over 1,230 homes have been 

11 destroyed, again, right here in Colorado.

12 The Royal Gorge fire in 2013 destroyed 

13 that destination attraction. The Royal Gorge 

14 bridge park outside of Canyon City closing the 

15 park for two years and destroying my business, an 

16 art gallery down river that depends on the 

17 tourism generated by the park. 

18 Wildfires are only one of the many, many, 

19 many damaging effects of climate change cause in 

20 part by the very coal- and gas-fired plants power 

21 plants that your new regulations and 

22 recommendations seek to help mitigate. Now that 

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1 I am a bit old to physically put out the fires --

2 the wildfires, I have joined 350 Colorado and 350 

3 Central Colorado to work towards putting out the 

4 ultimate fire climate change. 

5 Thank you all for that -- thank you all 

6 that you're doing in that regard and for my 11 

7 grandchildren and the millions of other children 

8 who will face building a life in the inhospitable 

9 and cataclysmic conditions to come, please do 

10 even more.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

13 Did Marsha Eldridge make it in?

14 Okay. Yeah, you can go for it.

15 MS. ELDRIDGE: Hi, my name is Marsha 

16 Eldridge and I'm from Denver and this is my 

17 daughter Josie Brigrich. Can you say hi?

18 JOSIE BRIGRICH: Hi.

19 MS. ELDRIDGE: And we are here to 

20 strongly support the clean power plan. We are 

21 very concerned. I am very concerned about global 

22 warming and she doesn't know exactly what it is 

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1 yet and I hope that she doesn't have to learn, 

2 you know, more hard things that are happening.

3 So anyway, we are here to support the 

4 plan. I think it's a great first step and then 

5 on behalf of other parents and families and 

6 children (child interrupting) we're going to tell 

7 them about this banner.

8 We are presenting this message to the EPA 

9 with handprints of parents and children from 

10 Denver and across the country. And a message 

11 from them that says to please keep doing the good 

12 work on the clean power plan on behalf of all of 

13 us.

14 Thank you. 

15 MR. JACKSON: Thank you guys.

16 MS. ELDRIDGE: I'll read what it says, I 

17 just can't see it. And it says, "Dear EPA, thank 

18 you for protecting us, America's children support 

19 the clean power plan."

20 MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much.

21 All right. Next couple of speakers we 

22 have are Samantha Akawei, and Catherine Cox 

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1 Blair. If you guys are in the room, come on up, 

2 please. 

3 MS. AKAWEI: I'm Samantha Akawei, that's 

4 A-k-a-w-e-i. Good afternoon to each of you. 

5 Thank you for this opportunity to testify. My 

6 name is Samantha Akawei and I'm an organizer for 

7 the the national non-profit Green For All.

8 Today we stand in support of the proposed 

9 rule, the clean power plan to cut carbon 

10 pollution. 

11 Growing up in west Harlem I know 

12 firsthand the devastating and disproportionate 

13 impact that climate change has on communities of 

14 color. In kindergarten my teacher would prepare 

15 juice for all of the children of my class as I 

16 drank milk. I always thought this was unfair and 

17 one day asked whether I could have juice too. 

18 She said, "They're only drinking juice because 

19 they all have asthma, you don't." At the time I 

20 was five and wanted asthma just to drink juice. 

21 But today I understand that one in every six 

22 black children suffer from asthma compared to one 

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1 in every ten children nationwide, and a great 

2 cause of this is carbon pollution. 

3 Today I wonder how many other children

4 are thinking this way and want to redirect our 

5 attention to our nation's most vulnerable 

6 communities that are truly suffering as a result 

7 of carbon pollution.

8 Sixty-eight percent of African Americans 

9 live within 30 miles of a coal plant and in 

10 neighborhoods with the fewest resource it's 

11 harder to escape, survive, and recover.

12 My parents made it a priority to send my 

13 siblings and I to public school in downtown 

14 Manhattan instead where there was fresher air to 

15 breathe and we too have to make it a priority to 

16 create clean, safe, sustainable, and renewable 

17 standards for all communities. 

18 Colorado is a state that can relate to 

19 the effects of climate change as it is making 

20 extreme weather worse. Colorado power plants and 

21 other industrial facilities released more than 50 

22 million tons of carbon pollution in 2012. This 

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1 is equal to the yearly pollution for more than 11 

2 million cars. 

3 Extreme weather events are costing 

4 Colorado millions to rebuild and recover from. 

5 And in 2012 alone, Colorado experienced 43 

6 wildfires. After disasters like these, we need 

7 to find solutions that help families not just 

8 recover, but have the strength to move forward 

9 and beyond. If we do not, we can only expect 

10 more disasters of this magnitude. 

11 As a young woman of color, I believe in 

12 the clean power plan and recognize both the 

13 crisis and the opportunity that is at hand. 

14 There are currently about 88,000 coal mining jobs 

15 in the U.S., many of which people of color work 

16 for. We just released a poll that shows that 

17 these communities feel that the clean power plan 

18 will spur research and innovations to keep energy 

19 prices low and create whole new industries with 

20 good-paying jobs. This shows that we can 

21 transition into a clean environment and clean 

22 energy economy without leaving people behind.

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1 The truth of the matter is 

2 environmentalists and workers in our energy 

3 sector have more in common than we often 

4 acknowledge. We all want good jobs to feed our 

5 children and a clean environment so that our kids 

6 and our grandkids can thrive. We all want our 

7 kids and grandkids to breathe clean air and drink 

8 clean water and live healthy prosperous lives. 

9 We don't have to limit ourselves to 

10 picking jobs versus protecting the environment. 

11 Americans deserve good jobs and a healthy 

12 environment. We do not need to accept a false 

13 choice between our pressing economic needs and 

14 our legitimate environmental concerns.

15 It is now up to the states to do their 

16 jobs to implement the standards so people, 

17 especially communities of color, especially 

18 communities of color don't have to be sick just 

19 for their own livelihood. 

20 We should also work alongside you all, 

21 the EPA, so thank you for all your work, to 

22 coordinate efforts to create plans that meet the 

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1 standards so we can build a green economy, one 

2 that is inclusive, and one that lifts people out 

3 of poverty.

4 Thank you. 

5 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

6 Ms. Blair?

7 MS. COX BLAIR: Good afternoon, I am 

8 Catherine Cox Blair, that's C-o-x B-l-a-i-r. 

9 I also commend you all for the extensive 

10 amount of work that has gone into the clean power 

11 plan.

12 I'm a senior advisor with the Urban 

13 Solutions Program with the Natural Resources 

14 Defense Council.

15 NRDC is a non-profit environmental 

16 organization with more than 1.4 million members 

17 and online activists. 

18 Since our founding in 1970 our lawyers, 

19 scientists, and other environmental specialist 

20 have worked to protect the world's natural 

21 resources as public health and the environment. 

22 Our top institutional priority is urban 

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1 global warming emissions and building a clean 

2 energy future.

3 I am grateful that Colorado has been a 

4 leader on these issues. 

5 As a city planning professional, I've 

6 worked with cities all around the country over 

7 the last two decades working hard to plan and 

8 implement more sustainable economically resilient 

9 and socially inclusive places. I hear over and 

10 over again from municipal and business leaders 

11 what they want is cleaner air and healthier 

12 communities, more energy efficient buildings and 

13 utility systems, alternative transportation 

14 choices, access to smart renewable energy 

15 sources, and recreational activities and open 

16 space. These are the things that make cities and 

17 communities livable and attractive places for 

18 people to live and for businesses to thrive.

19 The damaging effects of climate change 

20 are real and they're threatening our communities, 

21 our way of life, and our local state and even our 

22 national economy. 

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1 The EPA's clean power plan is a step -- a 

2 necessary step in the right direction. 

3 As a Coloradoan I've experienced and 

4 witnessed firsthand the devastating effects of 

5 climate change. We've seen huge wildfires cause 

6 major damage. Colorado's Waldo Canyon fire alone 

7 -- I'm sure you all are getting a little tire of 

8 these citations -- has been more destructive and 

9 was more destructive in our state's history. It 

10 damaged more than 346 homes, burned more than 

11 1,800 acres, forced the evacuation of 3,200 

12 residents and cost $8.8 million to contain.

13 On the other end of our weather troubles, 

14 we were hit by storms in June of 2012 that caused 

15 more than $1 billion in hail damage. And then in 

16 2013 we had rains of Biblical proportions. 

17 Over five days in September nearly a 

18 years' worth of rain fell in Colorado in 2013. 

19 It caused flooding -- or this past September. It 

20 caused flooding that traveled 140 miles all the 

21 way east to Nebraska. The flooding killed eight 

22 people and destroyed more than 1,400 homes 

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1 causing millions of dollars of damage. 

2 Colorado is already feeling the effects 

3 of extreme weather. One only needs to look 

4 outside, look outside the window today, listen to 

5 the news today, and you can see what climate 

6 change has meant for Colorado in terms of 

7 droughts, wildfires, floods and record heat. 

8 EPA's proposed plan is a significant step 

9 in the right direction for our country. It's 

10 critically important to build on the proposal and 

11 to adopt an even stronger final rule next year to 

12 benefit Coloradoans and our economy. In the 

13 meantime, Colorado can continue as a leader in 

14 the clean energy economy by cultivating 

15 innovation, supporting new and emerging 

16 businesses and by promoting investments in wind, 

17 solar, and other forms of renewable and cleaner 

18 power plants.

19 Finally, I'm also a mother which is 

20 perhaps the most compelling reason for me to 

21 provide comments today. We have an obligation to 

22 protect our children and future generations from 

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1 climate change by adjusting its causes including 

2 carbon emission from power plants. I'm here to 

3 show my strong support for the clean power plan. 

4 I urge the EPA to finalize the strongest carbon 

5 pollution standards for the existing power plants 

6 and to address the main cause of climate change 

7 to protect our health from its devastating 

8 impacts. I appreciate the opportunity to share 

9 these comments on this very critical issue.

10 Thank you for the time.

11 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

12 I have no more names.

13 (Pause.) 

14 MR. JACKSON: Okay. We currently have no 

15 speakers cued up, so we will take a quick break 

16 here and get going after we get a few more 

17 speakers, say in five minutes. 

18 (Brief recess taken at 4:16 p.m.)

19 (Record resumes at 5:15 p.m.)

20

21

22 SESSION C

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1 MS. SUTIN: Good evening, everyone. I 

2 think we're going to get started.

3 My name is Elayana Sutin and I am one of 

4 the chairs for today's hearings. Thank you all 

5 for coming today.

6 Joining me on the panel are Nate 

7 McMichael from the Office of Air and Radiation in 

8 D.C. and Colin Boswell, who is also from the 

9 Office of Air and Radiation, but in North 

10 Carolina.

11 We are here today to listen to your 

12 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

13 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

14 of these proposed rules on June 2, 2014.

15 Power plants are the largest source of 

16 carbon pollution in the United States, accounting 

17 for roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse 

18 gas emissions.

19 The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 

20 power plan for existing power plants. This 

21 proposal consists of two main parts, state22 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

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1 power plants and guidelines to help states 

2 develop their plans for meeting these goals.

3 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

4 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

5 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

6 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

7 their goals by 2030.

8 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

9 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

10 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

11 set emission limits for two groups of power 

12 plants, those that make physical or operational 

13 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

14 achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 

15 that replace components to such an extent that 

16 the new components exceed 50 percent of capital 

17 costs of an entirely new comparable facility. 

18 If you would like more detail on either 

19 of these proposed rules, there is information by 

20 the registration desk.

21 Today's hearing is one of four public 

22 hearings across the country this week on the two 

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1 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

2 in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 

3 you for taking time out of your day today to join 

4 us and share your comments.

5 We have a lot of people signed up to 

6 speak and we want to hear from everyone. So 

7 before we get started I would like to go through 

8 a few housekeeping items and ground rules that 

9 will help us run things smoothly.

10 First, please be sure to have checked in 

11 at the registration desk, if you have not already 

12 done so. And if you signed up to speak online or 

13 by phone and haven't told us that you're here, 

14 please step out to the registration desk and let 

15 the EPA staff there know that you've arrived. 

16 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

17 probably just given room B, so I think we're set. 

18 But if you were given Room A, stay put, this is 

19 where you'll give your testimony.

20 If you are not speaking this evening and 

21 the room is getting crowded, which I doubt will 

22 happen, but if that's the case, we have 

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1 additional rooms to view by video.

2 I will call speakers up in pairs, when 

3 your name is called, please come to the podium at 

4 the front of the room. When I call on you to 

5 speak, please state your name, and spell it for 

6 the court reporter.

7 Your comments will be transcribed and 

8 included in the record of comments on the 

9 proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 

10 minutes to give comments. We have a light to 

11 help you know how much time you have left to 

12 speak. It's right here. When the light turns 

13 from green to yellow, that means you have one 

14 minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 

15 sign to wrap up your testimony. The light will 

16 flash red and beep when your five minutes is up 

17 and it's time to stop.

18 When you are finished speaking, please 

19 remain at the podium until the person next to you 

20 has completed his or her testimony. 

21 We are here to listen to you today. 

22 However a panel member may ask you to clarify 

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1 your comments. 

2 I will then call upon the next pair of 

3 speakers and so on. 

4 If you have brought a written copy of 

5 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

6 the registration desk or you can leave it here at 

7 the table with us.

8 If you have any additional comments you 

9 would like to make after your testimony, you can 

10 submit those in writing.

11 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

12 much consideration to comments we receive in 

13 writing as we do to the comments we receive at 

14 public hearings like this one. 

15 So if you have more than you would like 

16 to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 

17 reviewed. 

18 There is still plenty of time to get 

19 written comments in and there are comment cards 

20 available at the registration desk. Comments 

21 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

22 put any written comments submitted today in the 

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1 official docket for the proposed rule. 

2 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

3 other ways are available at the materials table 

4 near the registration desk.

5 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

6 tonight. We will take breaks as needed. If you 

7 have any questions during the course of the 

8 hearing, please see the staff at the registration 

9 desk and someone will try and help you. 

10 Please be respectful of everyone who 

11 speaks today. We have people with a wide variety 

12 of views in the audience and we want to hear from 

13 all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 

14 everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly, 

15 even applause can slow things down and we want to 

16 hear from everyone who has signed up to speak.

17 Thank you, again, for taking the time 

18 today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 

19 rule. We'll get started. Thanks. 

20 (Pause.) 

21 MS. SUTIN: I would like to call up 

22 Charlotte Bromley and Sarah Bromley. Charlotte, 

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1 you can go first.

2 MS. BROMLEY: Hi, my name is Charlotte 

3 Bromley. That's C-h-a-r-l-o-t-t-e B-r-o-m-l-e-y. 

4 I first want to say, thank you guys so much for 

5 allowing us the opportunity to speak.

6 When I sat down to write this testimony, 

7 I wanted to tell a story about why I'm here 

8 today, standing up for the clean power plan. But 

9 I don't actually have just one single story that 

10 demonstrates why this is so important to me. 

11 My belief that the clean power plan must 

12 be implemented stems from a lifetime of small 

13 moments that have made it increasingly clear to 

14 me that our planet is in danger, and that it is 

15 up to our generation to act. 

16 I grew up in Haddam, Connecticut, which 

17 is a small suburb along the Connecticut River, 

18 and I fell in love with being outside. Whether 

19 playing soccer, or running around in the woods 

20 behind my house, catching frogs in our pond or 

21 riding my bike down to the Connecticut River.

22 It became a very big part of who I am and 

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1 I just spent a ton of time outside. It was a 

2 lifestyle that made me feel deeply connected to 

3 the outdoors, and a lifestyle that I took for 

4 granted.

5 When I was younger I didn't like going to 

6 New York because, according to my mom, I said "it 

7 felt too dirty and crowded." So naturally, I 

8 moved to Los Angeles for college. My first week 

9 in L.A. was for preseason for my college's soccer 

10 team, and at the time wildfires were so intense 

11 that after practices we would come back to our 

12 bags and they would be dusted with ash. We had 

13 to have half of our preseason indoors, which 

14 wasn't fun when the gym was 100 degrees and there 

15 was no fresh air. I thought that this was just a 

16 fluke, but as it turns out, wildfires are 

17 actually becoming a very regular part of life in 

18 L.A.

19 When we would hear that you could see the 

20 fires from the freeway, or from the top of what 

21 we called, Mount Fiji on our campus, we weren't 

22 startled but instead we would just go watch the 

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1 hills on fire.

2 My junior year in college, it had been so 

3 hot and dry for so long, that a fire actually 

4 started on our campus in a small field that led 

5 to a mass evacuation and a cancellation of 

6 classes.

7 My senior year wildfires were so bad that 

8 our professors had to evacuate their homes 

9 because they were told there was a good chance 

10 that they would burn down, also cancelling 

11 classes. 

12 I never have had any problems with 

13 asthma, but during lacrosse season in Los 

14 Angeles, I would often have to stop playing 

15 because I couldn't breathe. It felt like I was 

16 suffocating due to the mixture of the intense 

17 heat and the extremely thick and dirty air. It, 

18 again, made me only want to be outside when I had 

19 to be.

20 I thought that once I left Los Angeles 

21 the extreme and unpredictable weather events, 

22 such as wildfire, drought and flash flooding, 

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1 would be behind me. And at Denver, despite its 

2 reputation for weird weather, would be relatively 

3 calm and normal. I found this to be totally 

4 inaccurate. And again, I'm living in a place 

5 where not only droughts, wildfires and flash 

6 floods are normal, but so is hail the size of 

7 golf balls and terrible air quality.

8 Our climate is clearly changing. These 

9 weather patterns were not around in the past 

10 several decades. And over the past several years 

11 I think everyone can admit that they've seen 

12 increased extreme weather events and increased 

13 costs associated with them.

14 Ninety-seven percent of scientists now 

15 argue that climate change is real, and it's 

16 caused by human activity and we must act now. 

17 For people to come up here and otherwise argue --

18 or argue otherwise is, I believe, denial and in 

19 most cases motivated by a fear of losing money.

20 If we don't act, and if we don't accept 

21 the clean power plan and implement it, we will 

22 not only continue to hurt our environment, cause 

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1 tons of costs to people -- citizens, but we won't 

2 have a safe place to live for much longer.

3 So I very much support the clean power 

4 plan and I really hope that it --

5 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Sarah.

6 MS. BROMLEY: My name is Sarah Bromley, 

7 S-a-r-a-h B-r-o-m-l-e-y. I'm here to speak in 

8 favor of the clean power plan.

9 As an eighth grade teacher here in 

10 Denver, I have chosen to invest my time in future 

11 generations. Though our generation is already 

12 experiencing the effects of climate change, my 

13 student's generation will be even more affected.

14 It's time we make the hard decision in 

15 favor of our children, rather than protecting the 

16 coal industry, whose interests are in immediate 

17 gain rather than forward thinking. 

18 The use of fossil fuels has a 

19 disproportionate impact on the most vulnerable 

20 populations in the U.S. and elsewhere. The urban 

21 poor, the elderly, and children are most at risk. 

22 Global warming, caused by pollution from fossil 

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1 fuel burning power plants, is creating harsher 

2 conditions for children who suffer from asthma 

3 and other respiratory diseases.

4 Children are also more susceptible to 

5 heat related illnesses, like heat stroke, a 

6 consideration that will become more serious as 

7 extreme weather events become more frequent.

8 Our children deserve clean air and they 

9 deserve to grow up in a healthy environment. I 

10 want to have kids someday, but I want the world 

11 that I bring them into, to be a safe one. One 

12 that where there is enough clean air for them to 

13 breathe. I want them to experience the outdoors 

14 as a place of happiness, rather than fear. They 

15 should be allowed the same freedoms and choices 

16 as we are.

17 Carbon dioxide emissions that enter the 

18 atmosphere today will affect the global 

19 temperatures for thousands of years. The choices 

20 we make today will determine whether the effects 

21 on the globe will be manageable or unmanageable. 

22 There is no more efficient way to regulate U.S. 

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1 carbon emissions than managing the emissions of 

2 existing power plants.

3 We must pass the clean power plan not 

4 only to protect the health and future of our 

5 children, but to set a good example for them. 

6 Most children today grow up learning nothing 

7 about environmental stewardship, and many never 

8 develop a relationship with the environment they 

9 live in. We must show them that the earth is 

10 something to be valued, and passing the clean 

11 power plan is a step in the right direction.

12 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. You can both be 

13 seated. 

14 Next I'd like to call up Roberta Mooney 

15 and Micah Parkin. Ms. Mooney, you'll go first.

16 MS. MOONEY: Hello and thank you for this 

17 opportunity to provide public comment on the EPA 

18 clean power proposed rule. I am Roberta Mooney 

19 an environmental attorney and I am speaking today 

20 on behalf of 350 Colorado, a non-profit 

21 organization working locally to build a global 

22 prosperous movement to solve the planet crisis 

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1 and transition to a sustainable future.

2 350 Colorado is very supportive of EPA's 

3 efforts to reduce carbon emissions from power 

4 plants through the clean power plan. And while 

5 we believe that much deeper reductions in CO2 

6 emissions than 30 percent below 2005 levels by 

7 2030 are needed, we realize that this is an 

8 essential first step towards putting some limits 

9 on CO2 emissions that have so far been 

10 unregulated.

11 The buildup of greenhouse gases in our 

12 atmosphere has already raised global temperatures 

13 by about one degree Celsius, and even now we have 

14 begun to experience terrible impacts both here in 

15 Colorado, with increased droughts, floods, 

16 wildfires and pine needle epidemics, and around 

17 the world with more devastating storms, sea level 

18 rise, ocean acidification and more.

19 Our planet has just had its hottest May 

20 on record, followed by the hottest June on 

21 record. And high temperature records around the 

22 world continue to be broken, imposing ever more 

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1 danger to human health and welfare.

2 We thank the EPA under the Obama 

3 Administration for stepping up to its 

4 responsibility to protect human health and the 

5 environment by enacting measures to reduce carbon 

6 pollution. But of course, CO2 is not the only 

7 greenhouse gas concerned. 350 Colorado strongly 

8 urges the EPA to include in the clean power plan, 

9 the CO2 equivalent of other major greenhouse 

10 gases, especially methane, a powerful greenhouse 

11 gas.

12 As you are likely aware, methane is a 

13 primary constituent of natural gas and according 

14 to the 2013 report from the international panel 

15 on climate change, the heat trapping power of 

16 methane is 35 times more potent than CO2 over 100 

17 years. Eighty-six times more potent over the 

18 critical next 20 years, and 125 times more potent 

19 with feedback during the next decade.

20 In 2012 and 2013 studies, NOAA observed 

21 that 4 to 9 percent of the methane accessed from 

22 oil and gas production leaks directly into the 

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1 atmosphere, contributing significantly to climate 

2 destabilization. 

3 Another study by researchers at the 

4 University of California, Irvine, published by 

5 the National Academy of Sciences this past March, 

6 showed that drilling operations at several 

7 natural gas wells in southwestern Pennsylvania, 

8 release methane into the atmosphere at rates that 

9 were 100 to 1,000 times more than EPA had 

10 previously estimated.

11 Using a plane that was specially equipped 

12 to measure greenhouse gas emissions in the air, 

13 scientists found that drilling activities at 

14 seven well pads in the blooming Marcella shale

15 formation, emitted 34 grams of methane per 

16 second, on average. Far greater than EPA's 

17 estimate that said shalling released .04 grams to 

18 .3 grams of methane per second.

19 These leakage rates have led some 

20 analysts to surmise that natural gas production, 

21 by hydraulic factoring and horizontal drilling, 

22 also known as fracking, is perhaps even more 

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1 dangerous for the climate than burning coal. 

2 Since many wells leak far more than the 3.2 

3 percent break-even point, beyond which methane 

4 leakage rates are considered worse for the 

5 climate than coal burning.

6 Since 2007, atmospheric methane 

7 concentrations have been rising rapidly, and the 

8 recent increase in fracking for oil and gas in 

9 the United States and elsewhere is likely a 

10 contributor to the higher methane levels. If the 

11 CO2 equivalent of methane is not considered as 

12 part of the clean power proposed rule, the 

13 consequences could be a power source switching 

14 from coal burning to natural gas burning. Since 

15 burning natural gas, which is mostly methane, 

16 produces about half as much CO2 per unit energy 

17 as burning coal.

18 However, if the intention of the clean 

19 power plan, and the president's clean action plan 

20 is to mitigate climate change, than it would be 

21 folly not to consider the heat-trapping impacts 

22 of methane leakage during the production and 

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1 transportation as well as the burning of natural 

2 gas.

3 In order to achieve the greenhouse gas 

4 reductions needed to avert catastrophic climate 

5 change, we must transition as rapidly as possible 

6 off all fossil fuels, including natural gas, and 

7 quickly ramp up our use of renewable energy, 

8 energy efficiency, and conservation.

9 Resource switching from coal to natural 

10 gas would waste valuable time and utility rate 

11 payers money with little to no climate benefits. 

12 So it is vital that the clean power plan does not 

13 inadvertently reward switching to natural gas by 

14 not considering the CO2 equivalent heat-trapping 

15 potential of methane.

16 Again, 350 Colorado would like to 

17 sincerely thank the EPA for its work to reduce 

18 greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles, power 

19 plants and other sources. Get this right and our 

20 children and future generations will certainly be 

21 grateful as well.

22 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Mooney. Do 

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1 you mind spelling your last name for the court 

2 reporter?

3 MS. MOONEY: Certainly. It's M-o-o-n-e4 y.

5 MS. SUTIN: Thank you.

6 MR. BOSWELL: Can you also include the 

7 study that you referenced in a written comment?

8 MS. MOONEY: Yes. We have a reference 

9 here, and I can give it to you now, or submit it 

10 online.

11 MR. BOSWELL: You can give it to us now. 

12 Thank you.

13 MS. SUTIN: Ms. Parkin.

14 MS. PARKIN: Hi, my name is Micah Parkin, 

15 I'm the executive director of 350 Colorado, here 

16 in Colorado. And I just -- I wasn't actually 

17 intending on speaking, so I'll just speak off the 

18 cuff, if that's okay.

19 I just wanted to give a little bit of --

20 just a few thoughts. First of all, I just wanted 

21 to talk about how no place is safe from climate 

22 change. Unfortunately, that's become all too 

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1 clear in the recent decade.

2 My family moved here seven years ago from 

3 New Orleans and we lived there nine years pre4 Katrina, two years post-Katrina. We all saw the 

5 devastating impacts of Hurricane Katrina. 

6 My family decided to move somewhere 

7 safer, where there would be far fewer natural 

8 disasters like floods and so we moved to Boulder,

9 Colorado. And sadly one year after moving there, 

10 we had the worst wildfire in Colorado's history, 

11 in Boulder, breathing down our necks, threatening 

12 evacuation. And then, of course, last year we 

13 had the worst flood in Colorado's history in 

14 Boulder, Colorado. 

15 My husband says if we move anywhere else, 

16 there's going to be mass exodus and I can see 

17 why.

18 But the truth of the matter is that every 

19 place is experiencing impacts of climate change. 

20 And we, at 350 Colorado, and many other 

21 organizations here, the 10,000 plus people that 

22 we represent though, on behalf of 350 Colorado, 

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1 strongly support the fact that the EPA is taking 

2 these measures to start to control carbon 

3 emissions from power plants. But as Bobby said 

4 just a moment ago, I wanted to reiterate the law 

5 of unintended consequences.

6 When I moved here to Colorado, about, I 

7 don't know, two years after or something, there 

8 was a bill that was passed called the Clean Jobs 

9 Act. The Clean Jobs Act, the whole point of it 

10 was to -- to shift away from coal burning and a 

11 lot of what happened was resource switching from 

12 coal to natural gas. And at the time, I was 

13 really supportive because, guess what, natural 

14 gas burns with 50 percent less CO2 emissions than 

15 coal. But upon digging deeper and over the last 

16 six, seven years, many of us have been learning 

17 more about what's happening with hydraulic 

18 fracturing and horizontal drilling and all the 

19 huge amounts of methane that's getting emitted 

20 from the fracking well heads. Anywhere from 4, 

21 some say as high 17 percent of the natural gas 

22 produced is actually leaking directly into the 

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1 atmosphere from hydraulic fracturing and the well 

2 heads, not to mention all the transportation of 

3 natural gas. 

4 Some studies have indicated, as Bobby 

5 said, that anything over 3.4 percent leakage 

6 rates is actually worse for our climate than 

7 burning coal. That's really, really frightening 

8 to me, and I'm sure to you too. Because of the 

9 huge boom we've seen in recent years from

10 fracking in the United States. It can't be 

11 coincidence that atmospheric methane 

12 concentrations have also been rising since 2007.

13 I just wanted to bring up the fact that 

14 if we don't -- just to reiterate what Bobby said, 

15 if we're not considering the carbon equivalent of 

16 methane, we could potentially do what the clean 

17 jobs act did, which was to switch from coal 

18 burning to natural gas. And although it burns 

19 cleaner and with fewer emissions, you have to 

20 look at the production and the transportation 

21 cycles. If we don't, we could inadvertently be 

22 causing actually more greenhouse gases, more 

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1 potent methane emissions to be releasing into the 

2 atmosphere.

3 Coal is nasty, we want to move away from 

4 it, but switching to natural gas is not the 

5 solution. And if we're not very careful with the 

6 way EPA constructs this rule, we could 

7 inadvertently cause just that to happen, at very 

8 dire consequences to methane in our climate.

9 So just again, I wanted to say thank you 

10 again for all of your work, EPA, under the Obama 

11 Administration for trying to deal with the 

12 climate crisis. It really badly needs to be 

13 dealt with so that my kids and her kids and 

14 everybody can have a safe future.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

17 Ms. Parkin, will you spell your name for 

18 the record?

19 MS. PARKIN: Uh-huh. It's Micah, M-i-c20 a-h, Parkin, P-a-r-k-i-n. Thank you.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

22 Next I'd like to call Jenny Douglass and 

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1 Peter Blair. 

2 Ms. Douglass, you can go first.

3 MS. DOUGLASS: Okay. Jenny, J-e-n-n-y, 

4 Douglass, D-o-u-g-l-a-s-s.

5 And I don't have anything written, I'm 

6 just here as a mom. I'm very concerned about 

7 global warming and the impacts of carbon 

8 pollution on global warming. And I support these 

9 new proposed rules.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

12 Mr. Blair.

13 MR. BLAIR: Peter Blair, P-e-t-e-r B-l-a14 i-r.

15 And so, first of all, thank you for 

16 taking the time and opportunity for us to express 

17 our thoughts about this. I am here today talking 

18 to you in a nice dry room, in a nice dry building 

19 with rains coming down outside, knowing that they 

20 are expecting to cause more flooding, knowing 

21 that the news is telling me in the morning to be 

22 especially careful of some of the areas that are 

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1 trying to recover from the floods a year ago, 

2 from the wildfires in previous years.

3 And not trying to throw a bunch of facts 

4 about that, but just an understanding of exactly 

5 what's happening today and what we know. And I 

6 don't want to discount what's happening in the 

7 future and what our future generations are going 

8 to have to pay. Knowing the estimates from the 

9 government are that the cost to change some of 

10 what's happening now, will be 40 percent higher 

11 in 10 years. 

12 But I'm asking you today to make a change 

13 that leads us in the right direction by taking 

14 the steps necessary to finalize a strong and 

15 clean power plan.

16 Part of that, I do want to reiterate some 

17 of what Micah just mentioned and before that 350 

18 Colorado has addressed that this is actually sort 

19 of a small step in a way. It is not a huge thing 

20 that will happen and the terrible thing that will 

21 happen. There are a lot more things that we need 

22 to focus on, especially methane, considering the 

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1 greater impact that it has. But what we know is 

2 that there are consistently and increasingly 

3 variable extreme weather events that are 

4 happening today.

5 We can't guarantee that there will be 

6 more rain tomorrow, or more fires, or more 

7 droughts. But what we can know is that our 

8 abilities to predict and to respond to and to 

9 recover from these events, are actually no match, 

10 and they increase both in severity and in 

11 frequency. And that that cost to delay dealing 

12 with some of these things is only going to 

13 increase.

14 In a way this is more just urging you to 

15 move forward and how you go about that today. 

16 And that's keeping with and will be finalizing 

17 this clean power plan so that we can move forward 

18 for a future that we want, which includes both 

19 energy independence as a nation, and a 

20 sustainable nation and society as far as energy 

21 goes.

22 And so this plan, if we want to argue too

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1 that it will kill jobs, will ultimately end up 

2 creating new jobs in new industries that are 

3 better positioned for a future in the future that 

4 we all desire as opposed to, you know, relying on 

5 practices and lessons that are grounded in the 

6 past and in old technology, instead of 

7 positioning us for that better future that we 

8 really desire.

9 Additionally, I think that it's equally, 

10 perhaps important that this will allow us 

11 additional leverage and a credible voice in 

12 global climate discussions going forward that the 

13 U.S. does not currently have because we have no 

14 plan to address climate change. 

15 So it concerns me that as Americans, we 

16 are fighting against the regulation of a product 

17 and this is specifically addressing the coal 

18 emissions that kills and poisons so many 

19 thousands of us each year. It's a tax subsidized

20 and also very expensive and dirty energy source. 

21 And it's a finite resource that's unable to 

22 support a sustainable future.

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1 So I would urge you, and just say that 

2 there does not seem to be any leadership by 

3 allowing the destructive effects of coal to 

4 continue unchecked. And so by virtue of your 

5 mission, being the EPA, to protect human health 

6 and the environment, I think that you have an 

7 obligation to pass these regulations. And I do 

8 think that anything less would really not meet 

9 the expectations that you have set for 

10 yourselves.

11 So I think we can choose to look one step 

12 forward, perhaps, and maybe that looks like 

13 continuing to support coal, or not passing these 

14 regulations. Or we can look forward with kind of 

15 our eyes on the horizon of what's possible and 

16 also what's necessary to do to protect both 

17 ourselves and our health and that of the 

18 environment.

19 I would ask you to pass this, and what 

20 direction are you leading us by making these 

21 decisions. Is it one that's just one step ahead, 

22 or is it a direction that will allow us to grow 

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1 and move towards the sustainable future that we 

2 all desire?

3 Thank you for taking the time to listen. 

4 I appreciate it.

5 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Blair.

6 Next if I can have Anya Vanecek and 

7 Anneli Berube. They're not in the room?

8 All right. Well, we'll pause until they 

9 arrive.

10 (Pause.) 

11 MS. SUTIN: We'll go back on the record. 

12 You both want to come up to the podium. Anya, 

13 you can speak first. And please spell your first 

14 and last name for the court reporter. Thanks.

15 MS. VANECEK: My name is Anya Vanecek. 

16 It's A-n-y-a V-a-n-e-c-e-k. 

17 I'm 22 years old and I'm here to ask you 

18 to finally limit the pollution that is slowly 

19 killing our people and our planet and our 

20 opportunities as a species to thrive. I'm here 

21 to support the clean power plan.

22 I've been working my whole life for 

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1 something that I thought was pretty set in stone. 

2 I was told that if I worked hard and if I was a 

3 decent person that with a bit of luck I could be 

4 successful. As I grew older, like, you know, 

5 most people I began to realize that that wasn't 

6 exactly how it worked. You know, I could work 

7 really hard my whole life and I would never get 

8 rich. I might not achieve a position of 

9 authority, might not get to travel the world like 

10 by boat which I've always wanted to do, and I 

11 accept that. It's something that we have to 

12 accept as we get older. 

13 But, you know, then I began to pay more 

14 attention to what was happening around me like 

15 the dramatic weather events and these erratic 

16 temperatures, our ecosystems changing or even 

17 disappearing. And that made it really clear to 

18 me that success was never really about money or 

19 job security or a title, success was a lot more 

20 basic than that. It was living a world where I 

21 don't have to worry about the air making my 

22 children sick or where vacationing on a distant 

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1 island was a possibility I could aim for even if 

2 I was never able to afford it. It was knowing 

3 that that island exists.

4 Success at the heart of it was really 

5 contingent on having a planet to succeed on. So 

6 now I'm wondering, you know, what am I working 

7 for?

8 Well, to start, I am working to make sure 

9 that this possibility survives. I can't sit by 

10 while people suffer at the hands of climate 

11 change by losing their homes to floods or fires 

12 or to struggle to breathe in smog-laden cities. 

13 While our opportunities to innovate and diversify 

14 our sources of energy are stunted by short-term 

15 profit margins. I can't sit by while we watch 

16 the health of our people and our planet and our 

17 cohabitants deteriorate. I don't want to bring 

18 children into a world like that. 

19 So after graduation I took a job with 

20 Environment Colorado and I've been working as a 

21 community organizer to make sure that my life now 

22 doesn't end in that kind of a tragedy.

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1 And I've worked in the Denver area to 

2 generate the support for these limits on carbon 

3 pollution. I've talked to a lot of people and I 

4 fond that, you know, really the support is 

5 already out there. People from all backgrounds 

6 are eager to see us finally invest in their 

7 lives, to, you know -- I'm sorry. To stop 

8 letting, you know, these economic illusions 

9 justify their current and future endangerment. 

10 I've learned that there isn't just one 

11 reason to support these cuts, there are hundreds. 

12 These proposed rules are safe, they're 

13 affordable, and they're rational, economically, 

14 socially, and environmentally. And like any 

15 piece of politics, they're not perfect, there are 

16 plenty of questions to ask about the rule, but 

17 with nearly everyone I've talked to, it's always 

18 really boiled down to one question, and that's, 

19 if we don't act now, will any of the rest of this 

20 matter? You know, where are we going to work 

21 when our resources run dry? Will we travel when 

22 our beaches sink into the sea? And, you know, 

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1 our mountains are carved into canyons?

2 Of all the problems in the world to work 

3 on right now, you know, what will any of those 

4 success matter if we don't succeed in saving our 

5 planet? You know, what will my equal one-to-one 

6 pay ratio as a woman buy me? And how will I 

7 explain to my children why they're sick? How 

8 will we explain that when we had the chance? 

9 Costs were just too high. So I'm wondering, you 

10 know, if not this, what else is it all for?

11 Thanks.

12 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Vanecek.

13 Ms. Berube?

14 MS. BERUBE: So my name is Anneli Berube, 

15 it's A-n-n-e-l-i and Berube is B-e-r-u-b-e. And 

16 I am a resident of Colorado for the last four 

17 years. I guess one of the many reasons why I'm 

18 here is the fact that in just that short amount 

19 of time I've seen the impacts of extreme weather 

20 right at my doorstep. So seeing firsthand.

21 I moved here from Vermont where wildfires 

22 are not really a thing that happens. I saw the 

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1 four-mile canyon fire in Boulder, just the fall 

2 that I moved there. And then I've since seen two 

3 of the most destructive wildfires in Colorado 

4 history was around last fall for the devastating 

5 flooding that hit Boulder and the front range. 

6 And, you know, back home in Vermont, it was a 

7 couple years ago now, Hurricane Irene hit and 

8 flooded huge parts of the state and devastated 

9 rural communities that were already struggling in 

10 a lot of ways.

11 And so I guess that's just one of the 

12 many reasons why I'm here supporting the clean 

13 power plan is because I'm worried about the 

14 impacts of extreme weather getting worse, and I'm 

15 worried about what future holds. And, you know, 

16 as Anya said, we know this is a smart, 

17 economically viable, and an important thing to 

18 do. And I'm just here to ask you and ask EPA to 

19 put in place the clean power plan as quickly and 

20 as strongly as possible.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. You may both be 

22 seated.

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1 Next if we can have Jayeesha Dutta and 

2 Scott Hatfield.

3 MS. DUTTA: Good afternoon, my name is 

4 Jayeesha Dutta, J-a-y-e-e-s-h-a D-u-t-t-a. And I 

5 work with the Gulf Restoration at work based in 

6 New Orleans, Louisiana. I was born in Mobile, 

7 Alabama, grew up in New York City, lived in the 

8 bay area of California, end even right here in 

9 Colorado for a few years. Every single one of 

10 these places that I consider my home is suffering 

11 from the impacts of climate change. Devastating 

12 flooding, seal level rise, record droughts, and 

13 stronger storm systems like hurricane Sandy.

14 As such, this is not only about my work, 

15 this issue is a personal one close to my heart. 

16 The places I am most connected to and the 

17 people who are nearest and dearest to me are 

18 already suffering from the impacts of climate 

19 change. The time to take action is now. Our 

20 community's environment and economy cannot wait 

21 any longer. So I thank you for taking the time 

22 to hear my comments here in Denver today.

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1 So I coordinate the Gulf Future Coalition 

2 which is a diverse consortia of nearly 60 

3 community environmental arts and social justice 

4 organizations across the five Gulf Coast states 

5 of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and 

6 Florida. I'm here today to urge the federal 

7 government to take swift, immediate, and 

8 significant action around climate change before 

9 it's too late for many of the communities I am 

10 here representing.

11 For example, coastal Louisiana 

12 communities and tribes, like the Ildujon Charles 

13 (ph) Band of Biloxi, Chickasaw, Choctaw who are 

14 part of the coalition are becoming the first 

15 climate change refugees of our nation. 

16 The next decade or so will very likely 

17 wipe out the tribes' remaining strip of land as 

18 most of the island has already been claimed to a 

19 rising sea level due to climate change. 

20 Coastal land locks in areas such as the 

21 island have been accelerated due to oil and gas 

22 canals crisscrossing out delta ecosystem in the 

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1 Gulf. Another impetus for shifting our alliance 

2 on extractive energy to renewable, sustainable 

3 forms of energy production. 

4 Gulf coast communities' ecosystems have 

5 become highly vulnerable to climate change due to 

6 a host of factors such as sea level rise, 

7 subsidence and increasingly strong storm systems 

8 on an annual basis. This has become even more 

9 obvious in the wake of the 2010 deep water 

10 horizon explosion which we will be spending 

11 decades recovering from.

12 The costs of relocating people and 

13 planning to relocate folks now is cheaper in the 

14 long run than scatting impacted citizens to the 

15 wind which we horrifically experienced during 

16 Katrina.

17 However, we can avoid these relocation 

18 costs and the loss of culture that would 

19 inevitably come with the climate change diasporas 

20 by implementing clean energy standards and 

21 efficiency measures immediately. 

22 In this light it is high time we work not 

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1 only to cut carbon pollution, but decrease our 

2 dependence on all forms of dirty energy.

3 We support cutting carbon pollution and 

4 commend the current ambitious plan to move our 

5 country away from dirty coal plants to a clean 

6 energy future. We also believe the proposed plan 

7 must consider the EPA's principles of 

8 environmental justice and climate justice for 

9 guidance. It is essential that in adopting this 

10 plan the EPA fulfill the intent of executive 

11 order 12898. We see a need for the EPA to 

12 conduct a thorough analysis of this proposed 

13 plans' impact on highly vulnerable and 

14 marginalized communities and make that a required 

15 part of the state implementation planning 

16 process.

17 Additionally, we believe clean energy 

18 solutions must benefit all communities. 

19 Opportunities for clean energy jobs, education, 

20 and affordable alternative energy solutions must 

21 be available for residents living in the most 

22 impacted communities such as those I currently 

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1 serve in the Gulf Coast, one of the poorest 

2 regions in the country. The state implementation 

3 planning process must include leaders and 

4 advocates from these impacted communities at the 

5 table. And this outreach should be included as a 

6 significant part of the SIP process. 

7 Also at the state level we need to make 

8 sure that access to renewable and alternative 

9 energy opportunities are equitable. We must 

10 encourage a variety of avenues to ensure 

11 eligibility at the widest swath of our citizenry 

12 to participate in programs for clean energy, 

13 possibly by partnering with community 

14 organizations, churches, and local municipal 

15 agencies. 

16 Please consider these types of 

17 nontraditional collaborations to address an 

18 unprecedented dilemma.

19 Finally, we believe coal exports are a 

20 problem that need to be addressed as well. Gulf 

21 Coast states are feeling the impact of that as 

22 well. Frontline communities in our region near 

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1 coal export terminals and the long rail routes 

2 are often affected by these exports contributing 

3 to adverse health consequences, lower property 

4 values, and degradation of our environment. 

5 Further, if the U.S. is not burning this 

6 coal, but by exporting it somewhere else for it 

7 to be consumed, we haven't done anything to 

8 decrease impact on our climate. We cannot mine, 

9 transport, ship and burn all that coal and also 

10 avert the worst climate impacts on our globe. As 

11 such we encourage the agency to also adopt strict 

12 regulation enforcement of coal exports in this 

13 plan.

14 I see the red light.

15 While the current proposed clean power 

16 plan is a step in the right direction, we urge 

17 the agency to take courageous action in 

18 developing a systemic approach instead of a 

19 symptomatic one. 

20 As I shared with you this afternoon, the 

21 Gulf Coast is on the front lines in experiencing 

22 the impacts of climate change. 

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1 Again, I thank you for the time to listen 

2 to our concerns.

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Dutta.

4 Okay. Thank you. Mr. Hatfield. Go 

5 ahead.

6 MR. HATFIELD: Hi, my name is Scott 

7 Hatfield, H-a-t-f-i-e-l-d. I put these comments 

8 together at the last minute I wasn't really 

9 expecting to be able to speak. I'm glad that I 

10 can.

11 I thank you for holding this hearing here 

12 in Denver. 

13 I have some concerns about the smokestack 

14 only approach to power plants. I think you need 

15 to look at the effects of a fuel more 

16 comprehensively regardless of the type of fuel 

17 whether it be coal or say a nuclear power plant, 

18 or a natural gas plant. There's a lot of other 

19 consequences besides just what comes out of a 

20 smokestack. For coal you have a lot of damage 

21 from the mining, especially in Appalachia. With 

22 nuclear power there's a lot of nuclear waste 

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1 disposition problems that have not been resolved. 

2 These things need to be balanced. 

3 When you have natural gas power plants 

4 you should also look at the total greenhouse gas 

5 emissions associated with burning that fuel. But 

6 not just what's being burned. You have a lot of 

7 methane emissions from fracking. There's huge 

8 amounts of fugitive emissions associated with 

9 fracking that previous commenters have talked 

10 about. 

11 Recently activists have been looking at 

12 wells with infrared cameras. You can really see 

13 all of these VOCs just billowing off the wells in 

14 tremendous quantities. I think that that could 

15 be a useful tool for EPA to get some sort of 

16 handle on the quantities of methane being emitted 

17 from wells directly. Even if you can't directly 

18 regulate the wells under the Clean Air Act 

19 because the oil and gas industry is exempt, you 

20 could hopefully limit the use of their product 

21 and the proliferation of these fracking wells by 

22 regulating the total greenhouse gas emissions 

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1 associated with the fuel and other negative 

2 consequences associated with things like nuclear 

3 power plants.

4 So you should regulate methane more 

5 strictly from gas wells as well as associated 

6 public health hazards from air quality risks 

7 associated with fracking well. This could be an 

8 avenue to help stop people from getting sick from 

9 breathing the methane and other VOCs associated 

10 with fracking.

11 The economic consequences of not acting 

12 are much greater than the consequences of acting. 

13 Climate disasters are very expensive. More money 

14 is at stake with these climate disasters beyond 

15 anything that the fossil fuel industry might hope 

16 to profit for the status quo. 

17 We really need to balance or level the 

18 playing field for renewables. Currently fossil 

19 fuels are heavily subsidized. We need to allow 

20 renewables and clean energy the opportunity to 

21 come into play. 

22 We look at some of the industry 

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1 attitudes, accusations, and validity of claims 

2 really makes me wonder if these climate disasters 

3 are an act of malice from the industry. It's not 

4 just callousness or, oh, we just wanted the 

5 money. They know they're lying, those climate 

6 change deniers. And seem to have very little 

7 self respect. We know they're lying, they know 

8 they're lying.

9 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Hatfield.

10 Don Parcher?

11 MR. PARCHER: Good evening. Don Parcher, 

12 P-a-r-c-h-e-r. My primary affiliation is 

13 community volunteer. As someone who cares about 

14 people and the earth, I strongly support the 

15 EPA's clean power plan. As an informed person 

16 I'm convinced that human activity is the primary 

17 cause for climate change, or as I would rather 

18 call it, climate chaos. 

19 As a proud American, I think the U.S. 

20 needs to lead on this issue. As a veteran, I'm a 

21 retired Navy pilot, and had 36 colleagues die 

22 while flying, I'm concerned about the possibility 

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1 of climate change causing additional unnecessary 

2 conflict, which is loss of life.

3 As the author of the the Checklist Book 

4 for Living Better and Longer and Saving the Earth 

5 and as the founder of Checklist.com on which I 

6 featured an extensive checklist for saving the 

7 earth the last five years, I support this plan.

8 As a volunteer on almost a full-time 

9 basis since the September flooding in the Boulder 

10 area, I've been volunteering with Boulder Flood 

11 Relief and the Boulder County Long-Term Flood 

12 Recovery Group as a volunteer case manager, and 

13 I'm on the board of directors, vice chair for 

14 Boulder Relief Co. I'm really concerned about

15 the impact of climate change on extreme weather 

16 events. And through that volunteer work I've 

17 experienced a lot of people who have been very 

18 emotional about this issue. Residents who have 

19 been affected by flooding and so forth including 

20 one man who it was a week or two after the 

21 flooding there was a forecast of rain that night 

22 and he was frantically digging a ditch to divert 

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1 water around his property and he ended up on his 

2 knees crying and we were able to get someone to 

3 him to console him, a psychologist type person, 

4 and we were told later that we probably saved his 

5 life. But this is a very serious issue for a lot 

6 of people. 

7 And as a volunteer for Citizen Climate 

8 Lobby, I'm the liaison with Senator Bennett's 

9 office, went to the Citizens Climate Lobby 

10 conference in June in D.C. Two of us talked with 

11 Senator Bennett and four of us talked with 

12 Senator Udall and they're very supportive of the 

13 Citizens Climate Lobby's efforts to enact a 

14 revenue neutral carbon tax. We feel strongly 

15 that's the best way to really tackle this 

16 critical issue.

17 And both of those Senators seemed very 

18 supportive of the revenue neutral carbon tax, but 

19 they told us without support from the 

20 Republicans, there's nothing they can do. So 

21 another reason why I support this plan is it's 

22 something we can do. It's a feasible step now 

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1 that can be taken. 

2 So, again, as a concerned inhabitant of 

3 the earth, I support the clean power plan. I 

4 believe it's a small, but very critical step in 

5 the right direction.

6 Thank you very much.

7 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Parcher.

8 Okay. We'll pause, we're waiting for 

9 other people to come to provide their testimony. 

10 So we'll come back when we have some 

11 other speakers. Thank you. 

12 (Brief recess taken at 6:06 p.m.)

13 (Record resumes at 6:18 p.m.)

14 MS. SUTIN: We are going to continue to 

15 be on break until 6:45. We will come back then 

16 and see if we have any commenters. So, thank 

17 you. 

18 If there is anybody in the room who does 

19 want to speak that hasn't, please feel free to go 

20 to the registration desk and put your name in and 

21 we're happy to fit you in. We have the time. 

22 Thanks.

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1 (Brief recess taken at 6:19 p.m.)

2 (Record resumes at 6:45 p.m.)

3 MS. SUTIN: Come on in. Ms. Cohen, if 

4 you want to come up to the podium? And if you 

5 could please spell your name -- first and last 

6 name for the court reporter that would be great.

7 MS. COHEN: Sure. It's Elisabeth, E-l-i8 s-a-b-e-t-h Cohen, C-o-h-e-n.

9 MS. SUTIN: Go ahead.

10 MS. COHEN: My name is Elisabeth Cohen. 

11 I'm an atmospheric science public affairs 

12 specialist and mother to a baby girl. 

13 When I was a child my favorite thing to 

14 do was to look up at the clouds and to look at 

15 the cloud shapes and figure out what they were. 

16 That fascination with our atmosphere led me to 

17 earn a bachelors and masters degree studying it.

18 While in school I realized what a 

19 profound impact humans are making to our climate 

20 by emitting pollution, namely carbon dioxide and 

21 other greenhouse gases. We see these climate 

22 change impacts in our own back yards with changes 

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1 in snowpack and runoff in our national parks and 

2 monuments as glaciers melt and species shift, and 

3 around the world at sea levels rise and global 

4 weather patterns change.

5 We have the opportunity to do something 

6 about it by reducing our carbon pollution. The 

7 EPA's clean power plan is a flexible way to 

8 reduce carbon emissions while spurring new jobs 

9 and sustaining our economy.

10 Climate change impacts is here and now 

11 and will continue to impact my daughter's 

12 generation. I would like her to be able to look 

13 up at the sky in the future and not worry about 

14 what my generation has done to our climate, but 

15 instead think about how the United States 

16 Environmental Protection Agency made history and 

17 decided to encourage its citizens to harness 

18 energy from the sky like wind, solar, and 

19 hydropower instead of polluting it.

20 Thank you.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

22 (Applause.)

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1 PARTICIPANT: No clapping.

2 MS. SUTIN: We'll allow it this one time.

3 (Laughter.) 

4 MS. COHEN: Thank you.

5 MS. SUTIN: You're welcome. 

6 So we will go back and pause the hearing 

7 until we have anther speaker. I would say check 

8 back again at 6:45.

9 Thank you. 

10 (Pause.) 

11 MS. NOONAN: Good evening, everyone. Can 

12 you hear me? I'm Jenny Noonan, and thank you 

13 very much for coming out tonight on a rainy 

14 night. I'm one of the chairs of today's public 

15 hearing, and, again, thank you for coming.

16 I am joined today on the panel by Nate 

17 McMichael and Colin Boswell.

18 We are here this evening to listen to 

19 your comments on two proposed rules to reduce 

20 carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 

21 announced both of these proposals on June 2, 

22 2014.

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1 If you would like more details on either 

2 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

3 available near the registration desk.

4 Today's hearing is one of four public 

5 hearings across the country this week on the two 

6 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

7 in each of these hearings and I would like to 

8 thank you for coming out and joining us tonight.

9 I think we know everyone here has been 

10 registered and you are all in the right place. 

11 And let's talk about how today's hearing will 

12 work. 

13 I will call you up and please come to the 

14 front of the room to the podiums and please state 

15 your name and spell it for the court reporter. 

16 Your comments will be transcribed and 

17 included in the record of comments on the 

18 proposed rule. Each of you will have have five 

19 minutes to give your comments. We have this 

20 timer here that has a light on it, we'll let you 

21 know how much time you have left to speak. When 

22 the light turns from green to yellow, that means 

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1 you have one minute remaining. When it turns 

2 red, that's a signal to wrap up your testimony. 

3 The light will flash red and then beep when you 

4 have spoken for five minutes and it's time to 

5 stop. 

6 When you are finished speaking, please --

7 you do whatever you want when you're done 

8 speaking. That seems like an okay thing to do.

9 We are here to listen to you today. 

10 However a panel member may ask you a clarifying 

11 question. 

12 If you have brought a written copy of 

13 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

14 the registration desk or one of us before you 

15 leave today.

16 If you have additional comments you would 

17 like to make, you may submit them in writing and 

18 the information on how to do that is also 

19 available in the registration room.

20 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

21 much consideration to comments we receive in 

22 writing as we do to the comments we receive at 

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1 public hearings like this one. 

2 There is plenty of time to get written 

3 comments in because the comment period ends on 

4 October 16, 2014. 

5 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

6 tonight. 

7 And finally, please turn off your cell 

8 phones.

9 Thank you, again, for taking the time 

10 today to come out today and let's get started. 

11 Thanks.

12 Mr. and Ms. Masias? Sam Masias and Mike 

13 -- Mr. Michael Saul.

14 Thank you. And Mr. Mills, you will be 

15 right after that.

16 MR. MASIAS: Thank you. My name is Sam 

17 Masias.

18 MS. NOONAN: I think that's not on. Try 

19 over there and see if that's better.

20 MR. MASIAS: My name is Sam Masias. No?

21 (Microphone problems.)

22 MR. MASIAS: Can you hear me okay?

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1 MS. NOONAN: As long as he can hear you, 

2 we're good. And this is his mike, so --

3 MR. MASIAS: My name is Sam Masias, last 

4 name is spell M-a-s-i-a-s. I'm a lifelong 

5 Colorado resident and I live in Colorado Springs 

6 and I'm here to talk about my support of the EPA 

7 for the climate change rules. 

8 And first I want to start off by saying a 

9 personal story. I believe in the EPA and I'll 

10 tell you why. When I was a young man just out of 

11 high school growing up, in Manito Springs just 

12 south of here, my wife and I had a child at a 

13 very early age and we bought a house up in Manito 

14 Springs and like everybody in the '70s we did 

15 some remodeling where we drilled holes in the 

16 wall and installed urea formaldehyde foam. And 

17 this foam was used widely for insulation of 

18 homes.

19 And that foam after we put it in, shortly 

20 thereafter the EPA banned it from the 

21 marketplace, took it off the market. And we 

22 didn't know exactly why. We were just young kids 

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1 with a young baby. Unfortunately that young baby 

2 lived in the upstairs bedroom that was her area 

3 and that foam emitted gases that affected her 

4 neurological system. She eventually had developed 

5 when she was 13 epilepsy which she will have for 

6 the rest of her adult life. 

7 So I believe that the EPA was right in

8 banning that. I believe the EPA does a good job 

9 in a lot of respects for protecting the health 

10 and environment. And I don't want to see some 

11 other children poisoned by toxic gases that are 

12 emitted by coal power plants. 

13 And as a grandfather now, I want to look 

14 out for grandchildren and their grandchildren. 

15 And I'm here today because of that to talk about 

16 specifically the Martin Drake Power Plant in 

17 Colorado Springs. 

18 Martin Drake unfortunately is a dirty old 

19 man and he hurts children indiscriminately. 

20 There are 30,000 children living within five 

21 miles of Martin Drake Power Plant. And these 

22 children are ages zero through nine. And we know 

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1 that the submicronic particles that are emitted 

2 by the carbon -- the coal-fired power plant, 

3 those submicronic particles get into the lungs of 

4 small children and they go through the mucous 

5 membranes and they get into the blood stream. So 

6 it's kind of a lottery of what child will get 

7 those particles into their lungs.

8 And with Martin Drake sitting there in 

9 downtown Colorado Springs, and the fumes from 

10 that power plant have been shown, there's a 

11 distribution map that shows where these fumes go. 

12 We know that there are five elementary schools 

13 that are affected directly by the Martin Drake 

14 power plant. 

15 Now, I've been trying to get this power 

16 plant shut down for the last about five years 

17 before even these EPA rules came into the 

18 hearings that we are today. And I'll continue to 

19 work on that.

20 One of the things I like to say is, 

21 there's different stages of activism. So one of 

22 the stages is, I'm really angry about something, 

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1 I'm going to like a Facebook page, or I'm really 

2 angry, I'm going to send an e-mail to all my 

3 friends. Or I'm really angry, I'm going to 

4 attend a meeting or attend an EPA meeting. But I 

5 went beyond that. I went to federal court and 

6 sued Colorado Springs Utilities to shut down that 

7 power plant the week of May 16th of this year 

8 because of a fire that occurred there which 

9 emitted toxic fumes over Colorado Springs. And 

10 the judge dismissed that case, but he was very 

11 magnanimous inasmuch as he knew I was filing pro 

12 se, I'm not an attorney, and he said, you know, I 

13 understand what you're doing. I see that you're 

14 passionate about it, and he said, "It's not that 

15 you don't have a case, you just need to use the 

16 proper citations in the proper forum." 

17 So I'm going to come back and sue them 

18 again and I hope that we can close down that 

19 power plant once and for all and I appreciate the 

20 opportunity that I can come here and speak and 

21 put this on the public record.

22 Thank you. 

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1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much.

2 Mr. Saul?

3 MR. SAUL: Good evening, Michael Saul, S4 a-u-l. 

5 Thank you. My name is Michael Saul. I'm 

6 an attorney for the Center for Biological 

7 Diversity, but I'm also the father of two-year8 old twins, and that's the real reason I am so 

9 deeply concerned about the climate that we're 

10 going to leave to them and to future generations.

11 I'd like to begin by commending the EPA 

12 for finally taking action under Clean Air Act 

13 Section 111(d) to address what is the chief 

14 environmental challenge of our time, the threat 

15 to prosperity, health, and biodiversity posed by 

16 unchecked carbon pollution and ensuing climate 

17 change.

18 Unfortunately, however, I believe the 

19 proposed rule falls short of the minimum 

20 pollution cuts needed to avert catastrophic 

21 levels of global warming. In particular, there 

22 is overwhelming scientific consensus 

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1 demonstrating that the proposed rule should be 

2 strengthened in three principal respects. 

3 First, by setting stricter emissions 

4 reduction targets based on substantial reductions 

5 from the 1990 baseline emission levels recognized 

6 in the Kyoto protocol. 

7 Second, by taking full account of the 

8 significant externalities of methane emissions 

9 involved with increasing reliance on natural gas 

10 generation.

11 And third, by setting far more bold and 

12 ambitious goals for a transition to sustainable, 

13 renewable sources of energy. 

14 The fundamental purpose of the proposed 

15 rule is correct. Climate change has far-reaching 

16 harmful consequences and real economic costs in 

17 addressing carbon pollution now from fossil fuel, 

18 electric-generating units is an essential 

19 component of any real response to this crisis. 

20 We need to act immediately and decisively to 

21 avert tipping points and unmanageable levels of 

22 temperature rise and coastal flooding. 

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1 But the proposed rule doesn't get us 

2 there. It delays meaningful action far too long 

3 until 2030, it encourages additional natural gas 

4 generation and extraction and it fails to mandate 

5 critically needed investments in conservation and 

6 renewable energy. 

7 First, the emission reduction targets 

8 don't go far enough. The Clean Air Act obligates 

9 the agency to set a best system of emission 

10 reduction based on reliable science, not 

11 political expediency.

12 The clear scientific consensus of the 

13 last set of reports from the International Panel 

14 on Climate Change and others is that developed 

15 countries such as the United States need to 

16 reduce our emissions by 25 to up to 50 percent 

17 from 1990 levels by 2020 in order to hold global 

18 warming at a difficult, but manageable 2 degree 

19 Celsius. 

20 The proposed rule though utilizes 2005 as 

21 its baseline. That was the height of U.S. 

22 emissions and using that baseline though it 

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1 improperly claims credit for reductions that have 

2 occurred already between 2005 and 2015, and it 

3 fails to achieve the scientifically validated 

4 targets for limiting the public health, 

5 environmental and economic harm from unchecked 

6 warming.

7 Second, because of persistence of 

8 greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, we need those 

9 reductions over the next six years, not over the 

10 next 15. 

11 Second, we believe that the rule is 

12 deficient in its heavy reliance on a building 

13 block of replacing coal generation with natural 

14 gas plants, plants that the rule assumes will be 

15 effectively less carbon intensive. 

16 However, the proposed rule first fails to 

17 increase efficiency standards for existing 

18 natural gas plants and more importantly we 

19 believe there's substantial scientific evidence 

20 that the proposed rule understates the climate 

21 harms of natural gas generation by failing to use 

22 reasonable means to account for methane leakage 

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1 and the intense and short-term greenhouse gas 

2 effects of atmospheric methane.

3 Also by encouraging more natural gas 

4 development this would impose substantial 

5 externalities on the communities directly 

6 affected by drilling infrastructure and fracking.

7 Finally, the proposed rule falls short in 

8 its standards for renewable energy and energy 

9 conservation although we have available 

10 reasonable and practical road maps for getting to 

11 70 percent renewables by 2030 the proposed rules 

12 targets of only around 13 percent falls short of 

13 several states' existing standards, EPA needs to 

14 be leading the way, not lagging behind the states 

15 on this.

16 Thank you very much.

17 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

18 Thank you very much. And please submit 

19 any additional comments for the record.

20 MR. SAUL: I've submitted these in 

21 writing and we will be submitting detailed 

22 technical comments by the October deadline.

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1 MS. NOONAN: Great. Thank you very much.

2 Mr. Kirk Mills please?

3 MR. MILLS: My name is Kirk, K-i-r-k, 

4 Mills, M-i-l-l-s. Thank you for this opportunity 

5 to comment on the clean power rules. I am an 

6 environmental engineer by vocation, and by 

7 avocation a climate change activist with 350.org. 

8 350 gets its name from the 350 parts per 

9 million that was considered by James Hanson, then 

10 the leading climate change scientist for NOAA, as 

11 a save level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. 

12 And of course, right now we are approximately at 

13 400 parts per million of carbon dioxide in the 

14 atmosphere. 

15 While I am supportive of the EPA clean 

16 power rules and compliment EPA on going forward 

17 with these rules, I too feel that they are only a 

18 modest step in the right direction and not nearly 

19 large enough. 

20 James Hanson and others have calculated 

21 that to stay at the safe level of 2 degrees 

22 centigrade in the atmosphere which is about the 

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1 only thing that the world has agreed upon and 

2 with respect to climate change, that about two3 thirds to three-quarters of known fossil fuel 

4 reserves, including coal, need to stay in the 

5 ground. And we need to move more towards 

6 absolute limits rather than just percentage 

7 reductions if we are going to accomplish that.

8 As you know Colorado has suffered severe 

9 drought, record-breaking wildfires, and then epic 

10 floods last September estimated to be maybe the 

11 500 to 1,000 year storm. So we have seen 

12 firsthand the consequences and catastrophic 

13 effects, economically, socially of climate 

14 change. 

15 And Colorado also has been a real leader 

16 in renewable energy implementation and while many 

17 predicted this to be an economic hardship, in 

18 fact, it's really been an economic driver through 

19 our recession. 

20 So I believe that in fact this rule will 

21 help to spur economic innovations. We'll have 

22 many other collateral benefits such as reductions 

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1 in air pollution. Virtually all of our major 

2 water bodies that are west of the I-25 corridor 

3 have mercury to the extent that we have to have 

4 fish advisories on those water bodies so that 

5 people don't eat too much fish and bio accumulate 

6 mercury. 

7 We also know that we'll have particulate 

8 matter reductions, acid gas reductions, et 

9 cetera. 

10 I think a lot of the doom and gloom 

11 that's been stated about these rules is way 

12 overwrought. The EPA rules have historically 

13 always been predicted to be way too expensive and 

14 damaging to the economy. But in retrospect the 

15 economic benefits, even without being able to 

16 quantify some of the major ones have typically 

17 far outweighed the costs. 

18 And I think the White House just 

19 published something today that waiting to address 

20 climate change will eventually add $40 billion 

21 per year in additional costs that will have to be 

22 addressed. 

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1 Again, thank you for this opportunity.

2 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

3 MR. MILLS: Questions?

4 (No response.) 

5 MR. MILLS: Okay. Thank you. 

6 MS. NOONAN: Next up, Mr. Karl Ford?

7 If you could say and spell your name?

8 MR. FORD: Okay. My name is Karl Ford, 

9 K-a-r-l, F-o-r-d.

10 Shall I proceed?

11 MS. NOONAN: Please.

12 MR. FORD: So I 'm a retired scientist or 

13 biologist. I try to keep informed. And I want 

14 to cite a couple of things from the literature

15 concerning conservation biology, actually, and 

16 climate change.

17 Ten years ago, a landmark article 

18 appeared in Nature by Thomas Edall (ph), and 

19 that's the world's preeminent scholarly journal 

20 for biology. The article was entitled, 

21 "Extension Risks from Climate Change"; this was 

22 ten years ago. 

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1 So they coupled the available global 

2 circulation models with ecological models and 

3 they predicted the loss of over a million species 

4 due to climate change. 

5 More specifically they predict 18 to 34 

6 percent of the estimated five million terrestrial 

7 species will be lost. Naturally the article 

8 caused a storm in the media and among scientists.

9 Thomas Edall stands today as a 

10 conservative estimate because current predictions 

11 are even larger concentrations of greenhouse 

12 gases. It is also conservative because marine 

13 species were not included in the study. We know 

14 now that marine species are vulnerable to ocean 

15 acidification for the greenhouse gases including

16 coral reefs that house the greatest marine 

17 diversity in the world. Perhaps another million 

18 marine species are threatened. I was just 

19 looking today at some of the literature on line 

20 concerning that. And that's pretty legitimate.

21 According to another 2011 article in 

22 Nature, this one by Barnofsky, et al, a 

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1 paleontologist characterized mass extinctions as 

2 times when the earth loses more than three3 quarters of its species in a geologically short 

4 interval as has happened only five times in the 

5 assistant 540 million years. 

6 Biologists now suggest that a sixth mass 

7 extinction may be underway within a couple of 

8 centuries given the known species losses over the 

9 past few centuries and millennia. 

10 Scientists today are calling the present 

11 geological heat up the anthrocene because of the 

12 effect of human kind on earth, notably climate 

13 change coupled with invasive species and habitat 

14 loss. They are also warning us that there's 

15 plenty of evidence that we are in the sixth great 

16 mass extinction today. 

17 Is this the worldwide legacy we want to 

18 leave to our descendents? We should be ashamed 

19 if we knew and we chose to do nothing. 

20 I fully support EPA's efforts to limit 

21 greenhouse gases.

22 MS. NOONAN: If you have any of those 

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1 articles that you would like to submit for the 

2 record, we would be happy to have them. The 

3 information about how to do that is in the --

4 MR. FORD: I can provide them at a later 

5 time. I don't have them with me.

6 MS. NOONAN: Absolutely. You have until 

7 October 16th to send them in.

8 MR. FORD: Do you want the citations?

9 MS. NOONAN: Sure. Whatever you would 

10 like to send. 

11 Great, thank you.

12 Is there anyone else who would like to 

13 testify?

14 (No response.) 

15 MS. NOONAN: All right. We're going to 

16 adjourn the hearing for a few minutes. We'll 

17 adjourn until 7:25 and we'll come back then if 

18 there are more speakers.

19 (Brief recess taken at 7:09 p.m.)

20 (Record resumes at 7:25 p.m.)

21 MS. NOONAN: Welcome back, we are please 

22 to reconvene this public hearing for the last 

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1 half hour or so. And we have two other folks who 

2 would like to testify, Peter Satoe, would you 

3 like to come up?

4 And the brief summary of what you need to 

5 know, you get to talk for five minutes. When it 

6 turns yellow, you have one minute left. When it 

7 turns red and beeps, you need to stop.

8 And when you start up there, just say 

9 your name loudly and spell it. 

10 MR. SATOE: I am Reverend Peter Satoe, a 

11 resident of Denver, an ordained minister of the 

12 United Church of Christ, and executive director 

13 of Ecojustice Ministries. 

14 It was 20 years ago, in 1994 that the 

15 reality and the severity of global warming hit 

16 home for me. I had known of the impact of carbon 

17 dioxide on the atmosphere before that. I had 

18 tracked the climate discussions at the Rio 

19 conference in 1992, and seen religious leaders of 

20 many faith traditions start to address the matter 

21 as an issue of justice and faithful stewardship.

22 But in '94 I took several weeks to delve 

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1 into a concentrated study of environmental 

2 science and religious ethics. I learned far more 

3 about the rapid rate of climate change, the 

4 severity of impacts, the long-term consequences 

5 of humanity's disruption of climate systems. 

6 What I had known in my head moved into my heard 

7 and soul and my life was changed. 

8 Because of that summer 20 years ago, my 

9 vocation in Christian ministry is now dedicated 

10 to the transformation of individuals, 

11 institutions and society so that we may 

12 dramatically reduce our climate impacts and so 

13 that we may turn towards a just and sustainable 

14 way of living. 

15 Ecojustice Ministries, the agency that I 

16 founded, works with pastors and church leaders 

17 all across the United States bringing a religious 

18 call for urgent action on climate issues. 

19 Twenty years ago when my life was turned 

20 around by the emerging climate crisis, atmosphere 

21 CO2 was at about 358 parts per million. This 

22 summer the readings have been touching 400. 

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1 Twenty years ago I was horrified at that 

2 predictions of future climate impacts. Today we 

3 are already seeing impacts that are more severe 

4 and coming more quickly than the scientists have 

5 predicted. Our global culture is rushing toward 

6 climate chaos and those changes are well 

7 documented in both the national climate 

8 assessment and the background section of the 

9 EPA's proposed rules.

10 So I am grateful to the EPA for the 

11 proposed rules to limit carbon dioxide emissions 

12 from existing power plants. With CO2 levels now 

13 going up by more than two-parts per million per 

14 year, getting some control over our largest 

15 source of our country's CO2 emissions is 

16 absolutely necessary and long overdue.

17 While I am grateful for the proposed 

18 rules, I also do not think that they are strong 

19 enough or fast enough to address the scope of the 

20 climate crisis. Much of the reductions from 2005 

21 levels have already been accomplished. The small 

22 scale of reductions that are proposed between 

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1 2020 and 2030 are inadequate. And I call on the 

2 EPA to require far more substantial reductions in 

3 the final decade of the plan with increased 

4 emphasis on renewable energy and conservation.

5 In my work with churches, I am often in 

6 conversation with people whose growing awareness 

7 of climate threats leads to heartfelt concerns 

8 about their kids. They come to me wrestling with 

9 question, what kind of world do I want to leave 

10 for my children and grandchildren. I often tell 

11 them their question is good, but not quite right. 

12 We should be asking, what kind of world do our 

13 children and grandchildren have a right to expect 

14 from us?

15 The answer, of course, is that they have 

16 a right to a livable world. They have a right to 

17 a world where runaway global warming is not 

18 causing extreme weather, disrupting agriculture, 

19 raising sea levels, devastating freshwater 

20 supplies, forcing mass migrations, and triggering 

21 wars. 

22 To respect the rights of future 

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1 generations, to provide any hope of a livable 

2 world, the United States must move quickly and 

3 decisively to cut our greenhouse emissions.

4 The proposed rules on emissions from 

5 existing power plants is a step in the right 

6 direction. I urge the EPA to strengthen the 

7 regulations and move us more quickly toward 

8 renewable energy sources.

9 Thank you. 

10 MS. NOONAN: Great. Thank you so much.

11 Kim Stephens?

12 MS. STEPHENS: Hi. Thank you all so much 

13 for having us today and yesterday. My name is 

14 Kim Stephens. I am the campaign director with 

15 Environment Colorado and I represent tens of 

16 thousands of Coloradoan all across the state who 

17 support our work to protect Colorado's air, water 

18 and open spaces. And thousands of who have taken 

19 action on this exact issue coming from all over 

20 the state to testify to you during these public 

21 hearings, sign public comments and, you know, 

22 actually volunteer their own time to help get 

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1 more citizens in their community engaged on what 

2 they see as that biggest -- and we see as the 

3 biggest issue facing our society which is global

4 warming. So in Colorado we are already seeing 

5 the impacts of a changing climate from, you know, 

6 severe drought and wildfires over the past few 

7 years followed by the historic flooding in the 

8 fall. And these are just the type of events that 

9 scientists say are going to become more frequent 

10 and severe if we fail to reduce the pollution 

11 that is contributing to this problem which is 

12 carbon dioxide. 

13 And while we need to be reducing all 

14 carbon emissions nationally, the Environmental 

15 Colorado sees this plan as a vital step forward 

16 to cut the largest contributor to the problem 

17 which is the carbon emissions from coal-fired 

18 power plants.

19 So Environmental Colorado number one 

20 applauds the EPA's work responding to such an 

21 urgent problem. But given the scope of the 

22 problem and how urgent it is, we definitely call 

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1 for the rule to be as strong as possible and to, 

2 you know, continue to move forward clean energy 

3 solutions.

4 And the great news is that we are not 

5 starting from scratch so we draw on almost a 

6 decade of investments in clean energy here in 

7 Colorado and other states across the U.S. So 

8 continuing to do that and continuing to set even 

9 stronger limits for carbon emissions both in 

10 Colorado and nationally. 

11 So, again, thank you so much for all of 

12 your work and for being here and listening to all 

13 of us and please make this rule as strong as 

14 possible. Thanks.

15 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

16 Kelly Davis? And please spell your first 

17 and last name?

18 MS. DAVIS: K-e-l-l-y D-a-v-i-s. 

19 Good evening. Thank you for giving me 

20 the opportunity to speak here. I am an 

21 environmental attorney. I practice public 

22 interest environmental law with the Environment 

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1 Law Clinic at the University of Denver, Sturm 

2 College of Law. I'm speaking on behalf of myself 

3 here today.

4 The effects of climate change are here 

5 and now. I'm not going to reiterate what I'm 

6 sure has already been said many times. You can 

7 just look outside and see it. I feel like we 

8 live in the tropics with this late summer rainy 

9 season going on right now. And there's been a 

10 lot of attention on this proposed rule. I know 

11 it's very controversial and a very popular issue 

12 to speak about warranting this second day.

13 And I think that's because this is a new 

14 thing, this is change, this has never been done 

15 before by the EPA, regulating carbon pollution 

16 and change can be scary and it's almost always 

17 met with resistance. But that doesn't mean that 

18 you should necessarily give in to the resistance 

19 because if we did, we might still have slavery or 

20 women being seen as property. 

21 So change can be good and I think this is 

22 a really good step forward. I support the 

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1 proposed rule. 

2 From an attorney's standpoint, I don't 

3 want to get too wonky, but in my line of work 

4 we're often in the business of either challenging 

5 the EPA's decisions in court or being on the 

6 defendant, intervener side to defend them and I 

7 believe this rule is legally defensible. I think 

8 that probably you can expect a challenge from 

9 industry, but that in my opinion you have a 

10 really good chance of winning any legal challenge

11 because the statutory background is really well 

12 put and I think the science and policy and legal 

13 authority all line up to support this rule. And 

14 I know that EPA gets a lot of deference in the 

15 courts. I should know because I've lost cases 

16 based on the highly deferential standard that's 

17 warranted. 

18 But, I just want to let you all know that 

19 there are plenty of environmental organizations 

20 that are ready to step up and help defend the 

21 rule in court should it come to that.

22 In closing, I recently wrote a paper 

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1 about how the OMB and OIRA take a long time to 

2 review proposed rules especially the EPA's 

3 proposed rules that could affect the economy 

4 possibly. And I just want to say I hope that for 

5 this one they do not take an unduly long time in 

6 reviewing and approving it.

7 Thank you. 

8 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Thank you very much.

9 Is there anyone else here who would like 

10 to speak?

11 (No response.) 

12 MS. NOONAN: All right. I think we're 

13 going to be in recess for maybe ten minutes. 

14 We'll come back at ten of and we'll just make 

15 sure that nobody else is here and then we'll just 

16 wait here from 7:50 to 8:00 to make sure everyone 

17 who -- last minute folks we'll get them in. So 

18 thank you.

19 (Brief recess taken at 7:37 p.m.)

20 (Record resumes at 8:00 p.m.)

21 MS. NOONAN: This concludes the public 

22 hearing in Denver. Thank you for all who have 

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1 attended and given testimony. I am closing the 

2 record. Let the record show that it is 8:01, the 

3 record is closed.

4 [Whereupon, at 8:01 p.m., the Clean Power 

5 Plan Public Hearing concluded.]

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