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23–162 PDF 2006

S. Hrg. 109–310

NOMINATION OF EDMUND S. ‘‘KIP’’ HAWLEY

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON THE

NOMINATION OF EDMUND S. ‘‘KIP’’ HAWLEY TO BE ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY FOR THE TRANSPORTATION 

SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

JULY 18, 2005

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman 

TED STEVENS, Alaska 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

LINCOLN D. CHAFEE, Rhode Island 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico 

JOHN W. WARNER, Virginia 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK DAYTON, Minnesota 

FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey 

MARK PRYOR, Arkansas

MICHAEL D. BOPP, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JENNIFER A. HEMINGWAY, Professional Staff Member 

JOYCE A. RECHTSCHAFFEN, Minority Staff Director and Counsel 

ADAM R. SEDGEWICK, Minority Professional Staff Member 

TRINA D. TYRER, Chief Clerk 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statement: Page 

Senator Collins ................................................................................................. 1

Prepared statement: 

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 9

WITNESS 

MONDAY, JULY 18, 2005

Edmund S. ‘‘Kip’’ Hawley, to be Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security 

for the Transportation Security Administration, Department of Homeland 

Security: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 2

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 10

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 12

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 18

Responses to additional pre-hearing questions from Senator Lieberman ... 67

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 71

(1)

NOMINATION OF EDMUND S. ‘‘KIP’’ HAWLEY 

MONDAY, JULY 18, 2005

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:50 p.m., in room 

562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M. Collins, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senator Collins. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN COLLINS 

Chairman COLLINS. The Committee will come to order. 

The Committee will now consider the nomination of Edmund S. 

‘‘Kip’’ Hawley to be the Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security 

for the Transportation Security Administration. This is a vitally 

important position, made all the more important by the changes he 

would have to oversee, if confirmed, in connection with Secretary 

Chertoff’s Second Stage Review of the Department. 

TSA was established by the Aviation and Transportation Security Act of 2001. TSA was handed a great challenge under extraordinary circumstances. 

Despite progress, however, troubling vulnerabilities persist in 

our aviation and other transportation systems. The integrity of airport workers with access to sensitive areas is still not assured, and 

general aviation, which comprises approximately 77 percent of all 

flights into the United States, remains largely unprotected. 

In addition, efforts to secure our other modes of transportation 

appear to be lagging. Our Nation’s seaports may well present our 

single greatest terrorist vulnerability, and, as the attacks last year 

in Madrid and just 2 weeks ago in London demonstrated, railroads 

and other commuter transportation systems are prominent targets. 

Looming over the many specific deficiencies is the lack of a comprehensive national transportation security strategy. 

On top of these remaining challenges come the recommendations 

of the Department’s Second Stage Review. The overall thrust of the 

recommendations to create a more unified and streamlined Department with improved information sharing and coordinated strategic 

planning is commendable. TSA will be an integral part of this restructuring. 

In addition to resuming operational responsibility for the Federal 

Air Marshals’ Service, TSA would be given the responsibility to 

harden our transportation infrastructure in a more aggressive 

manner. 

2

1The prepared statement of Mr. Hawley appears in the Appendix on page 10. 

Mr. Hawley has a strong background to carry out these vital responsibilities. In October 2001, he was appointed by Transportation 

Secretary Mineta to be senior advisor for the project team that established TSA. He currently serves on the Federal Aviation Administration’s Air Traffic Services Committee, and has served on the 

National Commission on Intermodal Transportation and the Commercial Space Transportation Advisory Committee. 

In the private sector, Mr. Hawley has worked as a supply-chain 

technology consultant, as the CEO at a global trade management 

company, and as Vice President for Transportation Services at 

Union Pacific Railroad—clearly an impressive background. 

I welcome the nominee to the Committee, and I look forward to 

his testimony. 

I would like to first swear in the witness, as our Committee rules 

require. Please raise your right hand. 

[Witness sworn.] 

Chairman COLLINS. Mr. Hawley, I believe that you have family 

members present with you today, and I would ask that you introduce them to the Committee. 

Mr. HAWLEY. Thank you, Chairman Collins. My wife, Janet. My 

son, Chris. Our older son, Nick, is working in Charlotte, and my 

sister, Victoria, and her son, Henry, are representing the rest of my 

family watching on the Internet. 

Chairman COLLINS. We are very pleased to welcome you all to 

the Committee hearing today. 

Mr. Hawley has filed responses to a biographical and financial 

questionnaire, answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the 

Committee, and had his financial statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. 

Without objection, this information will be made part of the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data, which are on 

file and available for public inspection in the Committee’s offices. 

Mr. Hawley, I would ask that you proceed with your statement 

at this time. 

TESTIMONY OF EDMUND S. ‘‘KIP’’ HAWLEY,1 TO BE ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Mr. HAWLEY. Thank you, Chairman Collins and distinguished 

Members of the Committee. 

I’m very honored to be here today and thank the Committee for 

your prompt consideration of my nomination. I am also very grateful to President Bush for nominating me to this position. 

In the interest of time, I have submitted testimony, and I’d like 

to highlight a few areas where Secretary Chertoff’s Second Stage 

Review that was announced last week would apply to TSA. 

And first off, it’s in the area of direction. I think the Secretary 

has made very clear direction for the Department that applies to 

TSA in terms of making its operations an investment related to 

risk and use that in a disciplined way to help set our priorities. 

It also allows the many great people at TSA a chance to think 

anew about the mission of the agency and how we accomplish it, 

and I look forward to working with the many people at TSA who 

3

have these ideas and are very interested to get those out front. And 

I am very mindful of the fact that TSA has outstanding people 

from the current leadership, as well as all the way up and down 

the chain. 

And I just highlight one area where that’s an example, and that 

is I’ve had the opportunity to talk to employees at all levels, and 

screeners have told me that the injury situation that exists at TSA 

is not only bad from an injury perspective, but applies to the security product as well, and that it takes people away from active duty 

and puts pressure on other employers, which does make it more 

difficult for the others to do their work. 

So this screener was indicating that by driving down the injuries 

that happen to TSA that can elevate the level of security. So it’s 

that kind of thinking that I’d like to think at all levels can bring 

themselves to the front and that based on Secretary Chertoff’s Second Stage Review, that gives us a new framework and architecture 

to do that. 

And in conclusion, I’d say that I know a lot of words have been 

used, and I’m going to be using only words today, and that Secretary Chertoff and the Committee and the Congress are looking 

for results, and, if confirmed, that would be my priority. 

And so I thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much for your statement. 

I want to start my questioning with the standard questions that 

we ask of all nominees. 

First, is there anything you are aware of in your background that 

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Mr. HAWLEY. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. Second, do you know of anything personal or 

otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office? 

Mr. HAWLEY. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. Third, do you agree without reservation to 

respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before 

any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Mr. HAWLEY. Yes. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. 

Mr. Hawley, I want to bring up first an issue that has been the 

subject of a great deal of press lately and has generated a great 

deal of concern in my mind as well as in general on Capitol Hill, 

and it has to do with the contract that TSA awarded to NCS Pearson to help set up the Federal Screening Workforce. 

Now, first, let me say that I recognize that the deployment of the 

TSA workforce at airports was a considerable accomplishment. 

Congress set a very aggressive deadline. TSA met that challenge, 

and, starting from nothing, and was able to recruit 129,000 individuals and deploy a screening workforce at 429 airports across the 

country in 40 weeks. 

I am concerned that in the race to the finish line, corners clearly 

were cut. TSA hired the Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA) to 

audit the contract with NCS Pearson. At the time of the award of 

the contract, its estimated value was $103.4 million. At the final 

4

settlement, the contractor received $741 million, an absolutely astronomical increase. 

I don’t want to jump to conclusions about that overall figure, but 

DCAA clearly could not verify the reasonableness of the costs, nor 

the payments to the contractor from TSA, and reported many cases 

of what appeared to be highly questionable expenditures. 

I am concerned that in our rush to address security needs that 

the appropriate checks and balances are not always in place to ensure that the taxpayers’ investment is protected. So I have two 

questions for you as a starting point. 

First, since you were at the Department part of the time, did you 

play any role in the NCS Pearson contract and screener hiring? 

Mr. HAWLEY. Sure. The short answer is no. We looked at the requirements put in place for the Department of Transportation by 

ATSA, and it was clearly evident that in order to reach the goals 

by the timelines that a lot of people had to be hired in a lot of 

places very quickly. My role at the beginning was trying to figure 

out the sequencing of the various tasks and how to line them up 

so that they would all come together at the right time and meet 

the deadlines with the proper operational integrity if you will. 

For the hiring of the screeners, our first priority was to get the 

management team in place so that the Federal security directors, 

i.e., the lead TSA person at the airports were really the first hiring 

priority. But right behind that, when those people were in place, 

the idea was to get started right away with the hiring process for 

the vast majority of the people. 

So I worked with what we then called go teams to look at those 

issues and to schedule them, but at the point at which they were 

turned into actual go on the street contract bids that went over to 

the acquisitions area, and I never saw it again. 

So I’m familiar with the idea that we needed to hire a lot of people very quickly and that a contract was going out that subsequently was NCS Pearson. But I was not involved in the actual 

contract in any way. 

However, I’ll wait for your second question. Yes, ma’am. 

Chairman COLLINS. I think you have anticipated it, which is 

what will you do to ensure better contract management by TSA? 

Mr. HAWLEY. Yes, I think that a lot of the leadership of TSA 

since that time have got a great head start on it, and, as Rick Skinner mentioned in the previous hearing, TSA has brought up now 

over 70 acquisition officers and has really got a disciplined program 

for program managers, certified program managers, investment review boards, and executive leadership review. And from last week’s 

Second Stage Review announcements from Secretary Chertoff, it 

was crystal clear certainly to me and I think anybody watching the 

very high priority he puts on acquisition excellence and stewardship of public trust. 

So certainly from the leadership team at DHS, this is a critical 

priority, and it certainly, if confirmed, would be one for me as well. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. In your written responses to the 

Committee’s questions, you noted the need to allocate resources to 

the greatest areas of risk within TSA’s budget, and that is an issue 

and a theme the Secretary has also emphasized. 

5

Do you believe that we have over-invested in aviation security at 

the expense of other modes of transportation? 

Mr. HAWLEY. We certainly have invested a great deal in aviation. 

I think that the experience following the London attacks shows the 

excellent work that has been done around the country, not dictated 

by the Federal Government, but undertaken by private sector, 

State and local communities, specifically transit agencies, in working originally with Department of Transportation and the Federal 

Transit Administration to do risk assessments and start doing contingency planning that over the last 3 years, again working with 

DHS and TSA, that these communities across the country did, in 

fact, have those plans in place, and were, in fact, ready for a pretty 

quick run up when word came of the London bombings. 

And the Secretary talked a lot in the Second Stage Review about 

working in partnership, and I think the London experience indicates that the Secretary did not slap a Federal requirement immediately. I think his assessment was that the local communities immediately jumped to a heightened level that was, in fact, effective. 

And I note that his—when he raised the alert level from yellow 

to orange was specific to the transit sector. And one of the byproducts from that, which maybe hasn’t been noticed a lot, but I think 

is highly significant, is that by not making everybody rise to the 

orange level, that then meant in local communities and with the 

Federal and State agencies there were resources that became available to offer to transit. So the transit not only itself went up to its 

orange level, but other areas had resources that they were then 

able to supplement transit as needed. 

And I’m told that some of the feedback from that experience that 

that was a very positive thing. 

Chairman COLLINS. That is a good segue into my next question 

for you, which concerns the Secretary’s controversial comments last 

week about the value and responsibility of aviation security versus 

mass transit. As you weigh all of the responsibilities under you, 

how are you going to allocate resources? What do you see as our 

greatest risks? 

Mr. HAWLEY. Well, I look at the job of TSA reflecting what the 

Secretary said last week that there are really three things. One is 

to make sure that the transportation systems in the United States 

are not used to make a catastrophic or an attack with catastrophic 

consequences against the United States, and the second would be 

to make sure that no matter what happens in terms of terrorist attack, the transportation network of the United States continues to 

function and to do the above two without disrupting unduly the 

American way of life in terms of privacy and efficiency and the 

economy. 

That would be kind of the guiding light and that the Secretary 

announced also with the threat matrix approach at the Department 

that they’re working on, and, if confirmed, I will work with the 

TSA on the ones that are within the transportation sector. 

Chairman COLLINS. How high a priority is it for you to get the 

TWIC card, the Transportation Workers Identification Credential, 

in place? I have to tell you in the hopes of biasing your answer that 

I have been very frustrated about the repeated delays in implementing a project that makes all the sense of the world and that 

6

is not blocked by technology. I mean there are some issues where 

we haven’t proceeded because the technology hasn’t caught up with 

the concept. 

In this case, the technology is there, but the will to get it done 

seems to have been absent from the Department. 

Mr. HAWLEY. Very high priority that whole area, and I think the 

Secretary illuminated in the 2SR his thinking in terms of using 

technology across the whole Department to arrive at a solution in 

one area that would apply to others and I think the U.S.–VISIT experience of technology and the fact that U.S.–VISIT is within the 

Department and has some capability with fingerprints. But when 

you look at secure flight and the registered traveler, and the TWIC 

card, and HAZMAT driver’s licenses, all of those things have a 

component of using technology information to assure identity and 

assess risk. And that if the Department is able to build a foundation that respects privacy and is recognized broadly by the public 

that what DHS is doing in this area is respectful of privacy, that 

then the solutions that maybe are in one area you could use the 

system gains there to solve the other problems. And that I think, 

if confirmed, from my perspective at TSA, being able to sort the 

passengers, if you will, with some estimate of risk, to put more 

focus on the greater risk passengers and less on those that do not 

pose a risk that helps across the board. It helps with budget. It 

helps with security, and certainly the TWIC card is an essential 

element of that issue. 

Chairman COLLINS. In March of this year, the GAO reported 

that, ‘‘TSA has recognized that Secure Flight has the inherent potential to adversely affect the privacy rights of the traveling public 

because of the use of passenger data and has begun to take steps 

to minimize potential impacts on passengers and to protect passenger rights during the testing phase. However, TSA has not yet 

clearly defined the privacy impacts of Secure Flight in an operational environment or all of the actions TSA plans to take to mitigate potential impacts.’’

Given that TSA’s Secure Flight program intends to match personal identification information collected by air carriers against 

government watch lists, what steps do you plan to ensure that privacy concerns are addressed? 

Mr. HAWLEY. I think that’s the first gate that you have to pass 

through really before any others is to make sure that the privacy 

aspects of dealing with data about passengers and citizens at large 

that the privacy protections are in place because I think it’s obviously demonstrated that if there is a problem in that area, it will 

come out at some point, whether at the beginning or right when 

you’re trying to implement a program. So you have to have it properly built—the foundation built on privacy before working out the 

rest of the problem. 

So I think my approach to it is don’t talk to me about how we’re 

going to do it until we know that we have the rules set and a good 

comfort level that the privacy, legitimate privacy rights are protected. 

Chairman COLLINS. Finally, my office has received complaints 

from travelers who have faced very severe penalties, financial penalties, for inadvertently carrying prohibited items to a screening 

7

checkpoint. Now, we all understand the importance of the screening process. But in some cases, my constituents have been faced 

with fines totaling thousands of dollars for carrying something that 

they clearly shouldn’t have. It may have been a toy. It may have 

been some other prohibited item, but it was caught. It was clear 

that they didn’t intend to do so. 

That concerns me because we really need to have the public’s 

support for the screening process for it to be effective. The public 

has been willing to put up with considerable inconvenience and 

long lines, but if there are very heavy fines imposed for behavior 

that is not intentional and that caused no harm other than an extensive period of questioning, I wonder if we are striking the right 

balance. Do you have any response to that? 

Mr. HAWLEY. Yes, I think the commonsense security is really the 

way to look at it, and that, if confirmed, it would be a very high 

and immediate priority to look at the security regimes as respect 

what happens at the checkpoints and give that a whole fresh look. 

Clearly, the object of the drill is to find terrorists or threats to 

aviation and to do so without unduly hassling the rest of the American public. So I understand and respect the point that you have 

made and will go forward, if confirmed, with that in mind. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. I look forward to talking with 

you after you are confirmed, which I am confident you will be, 

about some of the other issues. I really commend Secretary Chertoff for suspending the 30-minute rule of in and out of Washington. 

That has made him a very popular individual with frequent travelers. But there are many other concerns that have come up repeatedly about the screening process, and I know the men and 

women who are on the front lines as screeners are doing their best, 

and they are doing a great job. But they are following rules that 

at times don’t make a lot of sense. 

We also need to do a lot more work on the watch list to make 

sure that it is a consolidated, reliable list with as high quality information as possible. All of us have had constituents who happen 

to have similar names or identical names to people on the list who 

have found it extremely difficult to fly. We have a lot of work to 

be done yet. 

Mr. HAWLEY. Yes, ma’am. 

Chairman COLLINS. Mr. Hawley, I very much appreciate your appearing before the Committee today and your willingness to leave 

the private sector to come back into the public sector this time as 

a presidential appointee. And we appreciate the sacrifice of your 

family as well. 

Without objection, the record will be kept open until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning for the submission of any additional written questions, statements, or materials for the record. 

Again, thank you very much for being here today. I am very 

pleased to lend my support to your nomination, and I hope we can 

get you approved and in place as soon as possible. 

Mr. HAWLEY. Thank you, Chairman Collins. 

Chairman COLLINS. This hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:16 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

(9)

A P P E N D I X 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA 

Thank you, Chairman Collins. Mr. Hawley, I too welcome you and your family to 

the Committee. Your family should be proud that you are willing to serve your country to protect American lives, and I thank them in advance for their sacrifice. 

Mr. Hawley, you led the Department of Transportation team that established TSA 

in 2001 and 2002, and I know you will bring this experience into play as head of 

the agency. 

I enjoyed meeting with you last week and as I mentioned, I have four specific concerns to raise with you today. The first is ensuring the privacy and civil liberties 

of travelers. TSA has been criticized by privacy advocates and the Government Accountability Office over a lack of transparency regarding the use of private contractors and commercial data in Secure Flight. 

The second issue is employee rights. Currently, TSA screeners do not have the 

same labor and whistleblower rights as other employees at DHS. I support granting 

full whistleblower rights to TSA employees, and I hope you will agree with me. 

My third concern is TSA’s contracting practices. I recognize that many of the reports of contractor waste date back to 2002 and 2003 when the agency was being 

stood up. However, I am deeply troubled that TSA may be allowing contractors to 

have too much control over contracts on which they are bidding, thus creating a conflict of interest. You have stated that TSA is seeking to increase staffing levels for 

contract oversight, and I urge you to fill these positions with Federal employees and 

not allow contractors to over see other contractors. 

Lastly, I would like to point out that my home State of Hawaii is 2,500 miles from 

the U.S. mainland. Hawaii is uniquely dependent on the air and sea for travel and 

commerce. Our airports have continually been short passenger and baggage screeners and are still awaiting the funding to install in-line Electronic Detection System 

(EDS) equipment. Currently, the EDS machines sit in already crowded lobbies creating congestion and necessitating the employment of more screeners to operate the 

system. 

I ask that you address these issues. Moreover, I ask you to remember that accountability and transparency are essential keys to successful administration. I look 

forward to working with you. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

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