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RIDDING CENTRAL AFRICA OF JOSEPH KONY:

CONTINUING U.S. SUPPORT

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH, 

GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND 

INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

SEPTEMBER 30, 2015

Serial No. 114–99

Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/ or

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/

(II)

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman 

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey 

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida 

DANA ROHRABACHER, California 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina 

MICHAEL T. MCCAUL, Texas 

TED POE, Texas 

MATT SALMON, Arizona 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 

JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina 

MO BROOKS, Alabama 

PAUL COOK, California 

RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas 

SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

TED S. YOHO, Florida 

CURT CLAWSON, Florida 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin 

DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan 

LEE M. ZELDIN, New York 

DANIEL DONOVAN, New York 

ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York 

ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

KAREN BASS, California 

WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

ALAN GRAYSON, Florida 

AMI BERA, California 

ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California 

GRACE MENG, New York 

LOIS FRANKEL, Florida 

TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii 

JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania

AMY PORTER, Chief of Staff THOMAS SHEEHY, Staff Director

JASON STEINBAUM, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH, GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND

INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, Chairman 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

CURT CLAWSON, Florida 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

DANIEL DONOVAN, New York 

KAREN BASS, California 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

AMI BERA, California 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Page

WITNESSES 

Mr. Paul Ronan, co-founder and project director, The Resolve LRA Crisis 

Initiative ............................................................................................................... 4

Mr. Sasha Lezhnev, associate director of policy, Enough Project ........................ 14

Ms. Francisca Mbikabele Thelin, founder and president, Friends of Minzoto ... 22

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

Mr. Paul Ronan: Prepared statement .................................................................... 7

Mr. Sasha Lezhnev: Prepared statement .............................................................. 17

Ms. Francisca Mbikabele Thelin: Prepared statement ......................................... 24

APPENDIX 

Hearing notice .......................................................................................................... 44

Hearing minutes ...................................................................................................... 45

Mr. Sasha Lezhnev: Evidence of the LRA’s presence in Sudan-controlled 

territory ................................................................................................................. 46

The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Texas: Nigerian President Buhari’s speech to the U.N. General 

Assembly ............................................................................................................... 54

(1)

RIDDING CENTRAL AFRICA OF JOSEPH KONY: 

CONTINUING U.S. SUPPORT 

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2015

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH, GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,

Washington, DC. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:06 p.m., in room 

2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Christopher H. Smith 

(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Mr. SMITH. The hearing will come to order. And good afternoon 

to everybody. 

Since 1987, the Lord’s Resistance Army, or LRA, has killed, 

raped, kidnapped, enslaved, or robbed thousands of people in the 

Great Lakes region of Africa and beyond. In October 2011, the 

Obama administration deployed about 100 military advisers to help 

Ugandan and other military forces in the region set out and capture or kill the members of a terrorist force that has now dwindled 

from thousands of fighters in late 1990s and early 2000s to fewer 

than 200 today, but remains a very real danger to people in the 

east and central regions of Africa. 

This hearing will look at why the efforts to end the LRA are so 

critical for the international community and especially for the people who live in that region and how the United States counter-LRA 

program has worked so far. 

Today’s hearing is being held even in the absence of the Department of Defense or the State Department, whose relevant officials 

are unavailable for a few weeks—and we will invite them and do 

a second hearing with them—because it will serve as an acknowledgment of the importance of countering the LRA prior to the administration’s decision on whether to continue the program. The 

decision of renewing the American deployment will come in the 

next few weeks. We trust the administration will decide to continue 

this worthy effort. 

We hope to cover U.S. counter-LRA policy with administration 

witnesses, like I said. They have been invited, and we are just 

waiting for them to give us a date. 

One can use a number of metaphors to describe the LRA today. 

It is like a wounded animal, less capable but still very dangerous. 

It is like a vulture, feeding off the existing misery it finds in countries otherwise troubled by conflict. The LRA is like a fire that is 

tamped down but not extinguished and can reignite at any time. 

2

However, the danger posed by the LRA is not metaphorical. It is 

very real to those who still live in fear in eastern and central Africa 

and certainly to the hundreds of child soldiers whose lives have 

been harmed by its work. 

The LRA is a vivid example of how ethnic strife can provide a 

cover for wanton viciousness. In the name of protecting the rights 

of Uganda’s northern Acholi tribe, LRA founder Joseph Kony has 

brought only wretchedness to his people and their neighbors as 

well as the people living in surrounding countries. Efforts to come 

to a negotiated settlement have all come to naught because Kony 

apparently has no coherent demands. His terrorist group seems to 

want nothing more than chaos, murder, and destruction. 

The international community has been much too quick to abandon humanitarian activities, largely because the number of victims 

has been reduced significantly. In confirmation hearings before the 

Senate Armed Services Committee last year, General David 

Rodriguez referred to the counter-LRA effort as ‘‘a good success 

story,’’ citing the group’s decline and the American determination 

to support African officials to finish off the LRA. 

Unfortunately, this is where the metaphors about the group 

must be kept in mind. Whenever the LRA has had a setback due 

to international efforts to eliminate it, the group’s retaliation has 

been ruthless. Ongoing conflict in Central African Republic, South 

Sudan, and the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo has provided a welcoming environment in which the LRA can hide and resume its deadly activities with less fear of regional government action against it. When you take your eyes off the LRA, they have 

enhanced maneuverability and opportunity to regroup. 

Thanks to the #Kony2012 campaign by the advocacy group Invisible Children, who also paid a visit to my office in New Jersey, 

LRA became notorious worldwide and garnered international support, especially among the young, on behalf of a robust counterLRA effort. Yet the staying power of social media is fleeting. There 

are always new causes, also legitimate and important, to draw attention away. Remember the ‘‘Bring Back Our Girls’’ campaign on 

behalf of the Chibok schoolgirls kidnapped by Boko Haram? 

Our caring has to extend to the victims of the LRA and other 

such groups, which not only include those whom they attack but 

also those whom they cruelly use in their destructive campaigns. 

We have one such victim with us today, who can describe the ongoing desolation the LRA brings to so many young lives. We also 

have witnesses familiar and expert with the LRA and its terrorist 

activities, who will describe the ongoing threat that the group 

poses, however diminished their ranks may be. 

Countering terrorist groups cannot depend on Twitter campaigns. The United States and other members of the international 

community must retain our resolve to capture and remove the leaders of the LRA and any terrorist group that threatens the lives and 

wellbeing of innocent people worldwide. Whether such groups pose 

a direct, confirmable threat to the homeland or not, by terrorizing 

those whom we help they oppose U.S. interests, and they must be 

dealt with. 

I would like to yield to my good friend and colleague, Karen 

Bass, for any comments she might have. 

3

Ms. BASS. Good afternoon, everyone. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for your leadership and for calling for 

today’s hearing and the continuing U.S. support toward that effort. 

This hearing offers us an opportunity to discuss the current state 

of affairs related to the movements and activities of the LRA and 

its notorious leader. My hope is that today’s hearing will inform us 

of what the next steps are that the U.S. Government should take 

to help end the violence, kidnapping, and abuse that has been the 

standard practice of the LRA for decades. 

I would also like to thank today’s witnesses for agreeing to participate in the hearing, including regional experts from civil society, 

as well as Mrs. Thelin, who lost over two dozen members of her 

family in the Congo at the hands of members of the LRA. 

I commend your dedication and commitment to working on this 

issue and helping to seek an end to the senseless violence that it 

produces. I look forward to hearing your testimony on the latest developments in the search for Kony as well as your insights into the 

devastation the LRA has wrought throughout central Africa and 

what can be done to stop it. 

The Obama administration deployed close to 100 military advisers to Uganda in 2011 to help Ugandan and other military forces 

in the region to seek out and capture Kony and members of the 

LRA. The U.S. has also provided significant logistical support to 

Uganda’s counter-LRA operations beyond its borders since 2008, 

while U.S.-based advocacy groups have contributed to U.S. policymakers’ interest in the issue as well as public awareness among 

U.S. citizens. 

While it is reported, as the chairman mentioned, that the numerical strength of the LRA has dwindled to maybe as small as 200 

fighters today, their intimate knowledge of the inhospitable central 

African landscapes and total disregard for human life continues to 

make them a clear and present danger. 

Though it originated in northern Uganda, the LRA now operates 

across a broad range of remote border regions between the CAR, 

the DRC, South Sudan, and even Sudan, according to reports. I 

don’t know if people saw the Washington Post article today. 

Mr. Chairman, did you mention that? 

And there is also the concern as to maybe cooperation with 

Seleka, and maybe we will hear about that today. 

Given the LRA’s wide range of operations, I should also highlight 

the broad grouping of international bodies and actors involved in 

the effort to end the threat of this terrorist group. These include 

African governments, the U.N. political missions and peacekeeping 

operations, as well as the AU and the EU. 

In 2012, the AU launched a regional task force against the LRA, 

which is led by Uganda, though it hasn’t reached its full authorized 

troop strength of 5,000. And this is the kind of collaboration that 

is necessary to deal with and address the cross-border dimensions 

of the LRA activities. 

In closing, I would like to encourage my colleagues in Congress 

and other U.S. Government agencies to sustain our effort to rid 

central Africa of Joseph Kony and to continue working with the 

international community to ensure that the LRA is no longer a 

4

threat to the innocent men, women, and helpless children it has 

preyed upon since its inception. 

I am committed to joining you all in that effort and hope to learn 

from today’s hearing how I can and we can be of greater assistance. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much, Ranking Member. 

I would like to now introduce our three distinguished witnesses, 

who are expert and also extraordinarily brave in the work that 

they have done, and thank them for their leadership and for informing our subcommittee and, by extension, members of the full 

committee and the Congress by what you are able to convey to us, 

past and especially today as an update. 

We will begin with Mr. Paul Ronan, who is co-founder of The Resolve LRA Crisis Initiative and currently serves as the project director. He also co-manages the LRA Crisis Tracker, a project that 

provides analysis of trends in LRA violence and activity to policymakers, humanitarians, and affected communities. He travels frequently to Uganda and LRA-affected areas in the CAR, DR Congo, 

and South Sudan. He also a frequent contributor to media outlets, 

congressional briefings, and think-tank fora. Prior to co-founding 

The Resolve, he worked at Caritas International and Franciscans 

International’s U.N. advocacy office in New York. 

We will then hear from Mr. Sasha Lezhnev, who is the associate 

director of policy at the Enough Project, where he focuses on peace, 

conflict, and corporate responsibility issues in central Africa. He is 

also founding director of the Grassroots Reconciliation Group, an 

organization that runs projects with former child soldiers in northern Uganda. He was based in Uganda for 21⁄2 years as senior program officer with the Northern Uganda Peace Initiative and adviser to the chief mediator of the peace process with the Lord’s Resistance Army. He is author of the book, ‘‘Crafting Peace: Strategies to Deal with Warlords in Collapsing States.’’

And, finally, we will hear from Ms. Francisca Mbikabele Thelin, 

who was born and raised in Dungu territory in the DR Congo. She 

was a founding teacher of Minzoto School. Though she moved away 

from the DR Congo in 1989, she travels to Dungu biannually. Because Francisca’s family in the Dungu region has suffered profound 

losses of life during the LRA violence, her commitment to improving conditions in Dungu is strong and very personal. She founded 

the Friends of Minzoto in response to the dire conditions, extensive 

suffering, and pleas for help that she encountered in that region in 

2010. She has made numerous public presentations on DRC history, culture, and the ongoing humanitarian crisis at universities, 

schools at every level, community, educational, and church events. 

I would like to begin with Mr. Ronan. 

And thank you again, all three, for being here. 

STATEMENT OF MR. PAUL RONAN, CO–FOUNDER AND 

PROJECT DIRECTOR, THE RESOLVE LRA CRISIS INITIATIVE 

Mr. RONAN. Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Bass, and members of the subcommittee, thank you very much for convening this 

timely discussion. 

I would like to express my deep gratitude for the bipartisan leadership that this subcommittee and Congress as a whole, has shown 

in support of efforts to stop atrocities by the Lord’s Resistance 

5

Army, including the passage of the LRA Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act in May 2010. 

I have been traveling to areas that have been affected by the 

LRA for 10 years now, and I have seen firsthand how the LRA Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act set into motion a 

significant strengthening of the U.S. Government commitment to 

resolve the crisis, including the deployment of 100 U.S. military advisers. 

This support has greatly helped our African partners in the region to reduce the fighting capacity of the LRA by half from what 

it was in 2010, which was about 400. Kony now has fewer than 200 

combatants left at his disposal, and this has greatly diminished the 

capacity of the LRA to commit atrocities. The graph up on the 

screen shows how the number of combatants has dropped. Killings 

by the LRA in eastern Central African Republic, northeastern 

Democratic Republic of the Congo, and western South Sudan have 

dropped dramatically, from 776 in 2010 to just 13 in 2014. 

As encouraging as this progress has been, let there be no mistake: The LRA is not finished. Joseph Kony has outlasted three 

U.S. Presidents already, and, without renewed attention to this crisis, he will outlast both President Obama and the 114th Congress. 

His LRA forces have abducted over 400 Congolese civilians so far 

this year, which is more than they abducted in any of the previous 

4 years. And this demonstrates clearly, I think, the danger that if 

U.S. and regional partners withdraw before removing Kony the 

LRA could quickly rebuild and resume mass atrocities. 

The recent spike in attacks has also led to an increase in displacement and humanitarian needs, including in the areas where 

my colleague Francisca’s family lives. And the next slide shows 

some of the trends there, including the uptick in abductions. 

Still, with less than 200 fighters remaining, the LRA is at its 

weakest point in more than two decades, and Congress can continue to play a galvanizing role in ending LRA atrocities for good. 

The Resolve is supportive of House Resolution 394, introduced in 

July by a bipartisan coalition of 12 Representatives. The resolution 

outlines steps the administration should take to reinforce the 

counter-LRA strategy, including adjusting its priorities to put more 

emphasis on promising defection campaigns. 

My recommendation is that within the next 6 months the U.S. 

military double, literally, the saturation level and geographic scope 

of the defection messaging targeting the LRA. You can see from the 

next slide, which is a map, just how vast the area that the LRA 

is operating in is. 

We also urge Congress to ensure that the administration is adequately preparing for a post-Kony world. The LRA has long preyed 

on the communities that are marginalized by their own governments and face threats from other armed groups, and these challenges will remain long after Kony is finally brought to justice. 

The sectarian conflicts that have left dozens killed or injured in 

Bangui and other areas of the Central African Republic over the 

past several days is a sobering reminder that the U.S. counter-LRA 

strategy must be part of a broader, long-term regional strategy that 

invests in strengthening fragile states and preventing mass atrocities. 

6

USAID has invested in several innovative early recovery and civilian protection programs in LRA-affected areas, but most communities have been severely underserved by the U.S. and other donors. Too often, programming in these areas has been underfunded, 

delayed, and hampered by a lack of proper coordination. For the 

U.S. counter-LRA strategy to truly bear lasting fruit, USAID 

should invest in programs that spur longer-term economic recovery, 

reinforce community cohesion, and holistically reintegrate those 

who escape from the LRA. 

In particular, I would like to reiterate that last point. I have 

interviewed dozens of men, women, and children who have risked 

rugged terrain, starvation, and Kony’s wrath to escape the LRA. 

Most were abducted as kids. And each of their courageous attempts 

to reunite with their families is a testament to the strength of the 

human spirit. Still, many struggle to overcome the poverty, the 

medical problems, and the mental trauma inflicted by years in 

Kony’s captivity. Helping those brave souls to reintegrate into their 

communities is equally, if not more, important than finally bringing Kony to justice. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and I look forward to 

your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Ronan follows:]

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Mr. SMITH. Thank you so very much for that excellent testimony. 

And, without objection, your full statement, which had even more 

data and information, will be made a part of the record, as well as 

for all of our other witnesses. 

We will now go to Mr. Lezhnev. 

STATEMENT OF MR. SASHA LEZHNEV, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR 

OF POLICY, ENOUGH PROJECT 

Mr. LEZHNEV. Thank you so much. As someone who has spent 

the last 12 years interviewing and running projects for former LRA 

combatants, I really deeply appreciate your attention and continued vigilance on this very important issue, Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Bass, and Mr. Meadows and other members of this 

subcommittee and I really appreciate and thank you for the opportunity to testify on this important issue right at this critical juncture in the fight against the LRA. 

From my years of working on the LRA, both with the Enough 

Project and in running projects for hundreds of former ex-combatants with the Grassroots Reconciliation Group, I have observed 

that the LRA is, frankly, one of the most resilient rebel groups on 

the planet in the face of adversity. It would win any ‘‘Survivor’’ 

competition. 

Today, I am deeply concerned about the LRA’s new trade in ivory 

and other commodities and its ability to regenerate itself going forward. 

Strong bipartisan support in Congress to end the LRA’s brutality 

has made a major impact, as Paul noted and as you noted in your 

opening statements, in improving human security and preventing 

atrocities in this war-torn region. Congress’ LRA Disarmament and 

Northern Uganda Recovery Act as well as the Obama administration’s deployment of U.S. military advisers to the African Union 

forces in 2011 have helped lead to a 90-percent decrease in LRA 

killings and a 30-percent decrease in attacks and have decimated 

its leadership. 

When I started working in northern Uganda, over 1.8 million 

people were displaced, 90 percent of the population. Today, that 

number is down to 200,000. That is almost a 90-percent decrease, 

which is a huge impact on people’s lives in that region. 

But I am here to talk about how the LRA is not yet down and 

out, and, with a new trade in ivory, gold, and diamonds, it could 

make, in fact, a serious comeback, as it has done several times in 

the past. 

Today, the LRA is increasingly poaching elephants for valuable 

tusks, trading that ivory for ammunition, supplies, and food in 

Sudan with the likely complicity of the Sudanese Government. This 

is actually the subject of last month’s National Geographic magazine, where explorer Bryan Christy manufactured a fake ivory tusk 

and tracked it from LRA-held areas in Congo through to Sudan. 

Critically, the LRA has a safe haven in Sudan-controlled territory Kafia Kingi. Joseph Kony has rarely left that area since 2011, 

and that is the chief area where the LRA trades ivory. Our team 

at Enough just spent a month in this area tracking the ivory trade 

and worked with the satellite company DigitalGlobe to help predict 

where the poaching might happen next, and here is what we found. 

15

So, first of all, the elephants in Garamba National Park in 

Congo, which is a UNESCO World Heritage Site, are rapidly decreasing as a result of the poaching. From 20,000 elephants in the 

1980s, there are fewer than 1,800 today. And this is a worrying, 

more global trend, with an estimated 35,000 elephants killed per 

year for tusks. 

The LRA is one of the key armed groups responsible for poaching 

elephants in this area, along with Sudanese and South Sudanese 

poachers. There is one unit of LRA fighters that is permanently 

stationed in Garamba National Park under direct orders from 

Kony. And also under direct orders from Kony, including leadership 

from one of his sons, a second LRA unit then takes those ivory 

tusks to Sudan-controlled territories to trade them near a Sudan 

Armed Forces garrison in a place called Dafak, also in Kafia Kingi. 

The main ivory trading town is called Songo. Sudanese forces 

have reportedly also provided valuable intelligence to the LRA, 

warning them of impending attacks. The ivory is then traded on by 

truck to Nyala, the capital of South Darfur in Sudan, and then 

likely to Khartoum for export to Asia. 

Garamba National Park rangers say that if the LRA and other 

poachers are not stopped, the entire elephant population of that 

area could be wiped out. 

Along with ivory, the LRA is also starting to trade in diamonds 

and gold. These resources give the LRA the ability to regroup and 

rearm. Looting and then trading in these items allows the LRA the 

opportunity to acquire food, ammunition, and other supplies. Over 

the past several months, LRA defectors that we have interviewed 

have come out with large amounts of fresh ammunition, along with 

rocket-propelled grenades. 

You can trade 1 tusk for up to 25 boxes of bullets, and there are 

over 700 bullets in 1 box. It only takes one bullet to kill an elephant. This is critically important because the LRA already has 

weapons, both with its fighters and more guns buried in the 

ground, acquired from Sudan and from looting. So all it needs now 

are bullets, supplies, and Joseph Kony. 

Kony is still in command and is central to the group despite the 

group’s leadership decimation. With him in charge and with new 

ammunition, the LRA can abduct new fighters. And although overall LRA attacks are down significantly, as Paul pointed out, abduction numbers are up this year. 

Now is the time to double-down on the U.S. counter-LRA mission 

and help end the LRA’s horrific reign of atrocities against civilians 

once and for all. This could be done with a low-cost investment in 

a few key areas. 

First, the Obama administration should reauthorize the U.S. advisers beyond October, the U.S. military advisers, with the primary 

goal of bringing Joseph Kony to justice. Simply managing or containing the problem will not stop Kony. 

The U.S. mission should also provide additional airlift capacity 

to the AU forces and increase its efforts to get LRA fighters to defect from the group. I second Paul’s recommendation on that. To 

that end, I urge you to sign on to House Resolution 394 on the 

LRA, a bipartisan resolution introduced by Representatives Jim 

McGovern and Joe Pitts. 

16

Second, the United States should take a leading role in addressing Sudan’s complicity in aiding the LRA. Sudan again denies that 

they are sheltering the LRA despite a wealth of evidence. I attach 

that evidence, compiled from the Enough Project, The Resolve, and 

Invisible Children, for the record with your permission. 

Mr. SMITH. Without objection, it will be made a part. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. Thank you. 

The United States should deploy advisers close to the areas controlled by Sudan in Kafia Kingi so that it can gather precise intelligence on Kony’s whereabouts. 

Third, the United States should help shut down this blood ivory 

trade. To boost efforts on the ground, Congress should increase assistance to the Fish and Wildlife Service for antipoaching work in 

central Africa, for which it has experience. And the U.S. advisers 

on the counter-LRA mission should work more closely with the 

park rangers and help interdict the trade from Congo to Sudan, 

which is now a known route. You can go on the National Geographic Web site and find that exact route. 

More broadly, the Obama administration’s draft rules to help ban 

the ivory trade are an excellent step in the right direction, but they 

should also include only a small, de minimus provision for ivory 

sales, similar to what the State of New York has on the books for 

ivory laws. 

I commend the many members of this subcommittee, including 

yourselves, for signing on to the Global Anti-Poaching Act, H.R. 

2494, introduced by Chairman Ed Royce and Ranking Member 

Eliot Engel, and I urge other members of the subcommittee to do 

the same. 

Finally, in the Fiscal Year 2016 appropriations process, Congress 

should not forget about the LRA and should continue to robustly 

support the counter-LRA operations. The U.S. Government deserves tremendous credit for sapping Kony’s LRA of most of its 

strength and helping allow 1.6 million people to go home. However, 

the LRA has a history of regrouping, and we should not forget that. 

And so I am deeply concerned that its trade in ivory and other 

commodities could allow it to do so again. Now is not the time to 

pull the plug but, instead, to finish the job and bring Kony to justice. 

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Lezhnev follows:]

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Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much, Mr. Lezhnev, for your testimony. 

I would like to now ask Ms. Thelin if she would proceed. 

STATEMENT OF MS. FRANCISCA MBIKABELE THELIN, 

FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT, FRIENDS OF MINZOTO 

Ms. THELIN. Thank you. My name is Francisca Thelin. I want to 

sincerely thank the chairman, ranking member, and the entire subcommittee for this opportunity to speak today on behalf of those 

suffering from the violence of the LRA, the Lord’s Resistance Army. 

Though I have lived in the United States for 26 years and am 

a U.S. citizen, I grew up in the Dungu territory in the Democratic 

Republic of the Congo, a region deeply affected by the violence of 

Joseph Kony and the LRA. I am the founder of a small nonprofit 

called the Friends of Minzoto, which supports local community efforts in the Dungu area to recover from the LRA violence. 

My dear friend Lisa Shannon authored a book entitled, ‘‘Mama 

Koko and the Hundred Gunmen,’’ which tells my family’s story of 

experiencing the LRA crisis firsthand. Since 2008, 28 members of 

my family have been murdered by the LRA. Most were chopped 

with the machete, many in front of their loved ones. Six children 

in my family were abducted and forced to become LRA’s sex slaves 

or child soldiers. Although one eventually escaped, he came home 

so psychologically damaged that he is a danger to our other children and cannot live at home. We can only assume that the others 

who have not returned home have died. 

At the age of 69, my mother spent months at a time hiding in 

the bush with no blankets or supplies, taking care of multiple babies and teenagers, and getting sick with pneumonia before coming 

back home to nothing. The LRA had looted everything. 

For 5 years, my family and every family in the Dungu territory 

lived in total terror because of the LRA. Unable to go to the fields 

to grow their crops, everyone was hungry. Many who did not die 

at the hand of the LRA died of starvation and malnutrition. 

Even now, the situation is not fully back to normal. Thousands 

of internally displaced families that took refuge in the Dungu years 

ago still live there with no land of their own, barely surviving day 

to day. Many of them live in meager homes next to the river, the 

only place where they could settle, and they are regularly flooded 

out of their homes when the rains come. 

Life for them is so difficult, but they are afraid to go home to 

their villages—and with good reason. Many of those who did go 

back to their villages were killed, or many are still being forced to 

give all their crops and their belongings to the LRA when they attack. 

When I was in Dungu in 2010 interviewing survivors of the LRA, 

I would ask them, what do you want from the U.S. Government? 

Their answers were always the same: We want peace, we want 

Kony out. I promised to share their message with my Government 

in the United States, but I wasn’t sure exactly how I would do that. 

Today, I am finally able to deliver on that promise, and I am very 

grateful for this opportunity. 

So I am here today to ask you, Honorable Members, in the 

strongest possible terms to continue to support the African Union 

23

and the U.S. advisers in their efforts to end LRA violence. Please 

do not allow this mission to lose strength until the LRA is stopped 

and Joseph Kony and his leaders have been held accountable for 

their horrific crimes. 

Why is continued support from the U.S. so important when the 

LRA threat seems diminished? LRA attacks are still taking place. 

Particularly in the Congo, abductions by the LRA have increased 

over the past year, which further traumatizes the population. In 

the minds of the communities, the LRA rules the bush. But the 

bush is our bank; it is where we find food, where we clear land to 

cultivate our crops in order to feed our families and to earn livelihoods. 

I have story after story of my connection to people attacked by 

the LRA, but it would take days to tell them all, and they are very 

painful to share. 

As I close, I want to emphasize that these communities targeted 

by the LRA are severely neglected. They do not have resources on 

their own to get rid of the LRA. And they have suffered long 

enough. The commitment of the U.S. is critical to their survival 

and to lasting peace. Please, do not give up before the crisis is actually over. 

I am speaking for all Congolese enduring LRA violence when I 

thank you for all that the U.S. Government has already done to 

help bring this crisis to an end. In light of how far we have come 

and how precious these lives are, I urge you and every Member of 

Congress to stay committed to seeing LRA violence finally ended. 

Specifically, I ask you to support House Resolution 394, which reinforces the U.S. Government’s commitment to ending LRA violence. Secondly, I urge you to provide funding in the U.S. budget 

that would support the local recovery initiatives in the LRA-affected communities. And, lastly, I ask you to use your position of 

influence to press Congo’s Government to promote a free and fair 

election on time. I ask you to use your help to make sure that the 

communities like Dungu do not continue to be so marginalized and 

vulnerable to groups like LRA in the future. 

I want to thank you again for your care for families, like my own, 

who have suffered from this crisis. And I thank you for this opportunity to fulfill my promise to them and to represent their voices 

here in Washington. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Thelin follows:]

24


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96818c-2.eps
26

Mr. SMITH. Ms. Thelin, thank you so very much for your testimony. 

We do have two votes on the floor, but we don’t have to be there 

just yet, although in a moment or so. But we will take a brief recess and then come back. 

I would like to ask just a couple of opening questions. 

Ms. Thelin, your nonprofit supports recovery efforts for the victims of the LRA. What are the greatest needs? Are individuals, especially children and women, getting the psychological help that 

they need after being traumatized? Is the faith community stepping 

up, whether it be Christian or Muslim, to meet those needs, in your 

opinion? 

Ms. THELIN. Actually, I cannot really tell you that there is something happening to help them now. But it was in 2010 when I was 

there, there was a group helping them, and it seems like they are 

struggling now with funds, funding. They don’t have the money to 

continue. But there is nothing really at present. 

Mr. SMITH. All right. I appreciate it. 

Would either of our other witnesses like to comment on the psychological component of helping those who have been traumatized? 

Yes, Mr. Ronan. 

Mr. RONAN. That is a great question. And I think that the answer is that very little support is now available to the people that 

escape the LRA. 

Many of them might receive maybe a few days, when they first 

come out, of some basic medical treatment or some counseling. But, 

over the long term, the children and the women and especially the 

adult men who do escape, all of whom were abducted as kids, receive very little support. 

And that is, I think, a problem that will be manifested and will 

continue for years in the future if these people are not able to properly reintegrate into their communities. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. I would just add, if I may, the scars of war, of 

being a child soldier don’t disappear overnight. And, unfortunately, 

many NGOs and organizations have pulled out of northern Uganda 

because there is no longer active conflict happening there, and that 

is an area of tremendous need. 

The organization that I helped found, the Grassroots Reconciliation Group, runs a psychosocial trauma counseling project for 

roughly 700 ex-combatants and their families, but it is really a 

drop in the bucket when you think that the LRA has abducted 

some 66,000 youth. And if you have spent 5 or 10 or 15 years in 

the bush, constantly being forced to kill your friends and your family members, those psychological traumas will not go away overnight. 

So there is a lot more need for assistance in that area. And our 

groups are putting together a letter exactly on this issue now. We 

will be happy to send it to you. 

Mr. SMITH. Okay. 

Let me just ask you, Mr. Lezhnev. You make a very ominous 

warning that it could make a serious comeback, as it has done in 

the past. In my opening comments, I tried to emphasize that, and 

I know Ranking Member Bass feels the same way. 

27

Is there any belief or any expectation that the administration 

will not continue this vital program, again, which all three of you 

have wholeheartedly embraced and endorsed? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. I think that there is still a debate happening within the administration between those who really want to see the job 

finished and those who say, well, the leadership is decimated, attacks are down, the capacity is lowered, let’s just contain the problem and move on to other priority areas. 

Mr. SMITH. Is it because of cost? I mean, what is the reason? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. I think part of it is cost. Part of it are the growing 

crises in South Sudan and CAR, other priority areas. 

But, from our experience, as long as Kony is there, he is very 

skillful at getting new resources and surviving and moving to territories where he has a safe haven. So, as long as he is there, we 

need to continue working. 

Mr. SMITH. The committee will stand in brief recess, subject to 

the call of the chair. And I thank you. And sorry for this delay. 

[Recess.] 

Mr. SMITH. The subcommittee will resume its sitting. And, again, 

I apologize for that delay. Just a few additional questions. And I 

know Karen is on her way back, as well as Mark Meadows. 

Mr. Ronan, in your testimony, you talked about the Come Home 

defection campaign and how important that is. You make a point 

that I found very interesting. You talked about how some of the 

people, defectors, had walked for an entire month to reach the U.S. 

military base in eastern CAR. 

And I am wondering, is it because it is that dangerous to go anywhere else other than to the U.S. forces? And how is it that they 

knew where they were? A month of walking can take you many 

hundreds of miles. And I am just wondering if you could elaborate 

on that. 

Mr. RONAN. Yes. And thank you very much. That is, again, a 

very good question. 

And I think that, first of all, it is just important to reiterate the 

ability that Kony has to instill propaganda into the combatants in 

his force, which he has an advantage of, of course, because many 

of them were abducted when they were very young. So the starting 

point to try to convince these combatants to defect from the LRA 

is very difficult. It is very difficult to do that. 

So I really do think it is a testament to the ingenuity and the 

hard work of the U.S. advisers and the civil society partners that 

they work with that they have been able to devise messaging, 

whether it be by FM radio, by speakers that are strapped onto helicopters, or by leaflets, to really penetrate the propaganda that 

Kony tries to instill. 

And this most recent case from a few months ago, when these 

seven bodyguards to Kony who were operating near the Sudanesecontrolled areas of the Kafia Kingi enclave with Kony, when I 

interviewed them after they had defected, they said that it was a 

result of this messaging that they had received that has been supported by the U.S. military that they knew that they could safely 

defect to where the U.S. base was. And they knew where the U.S. 

base was as a result of that messaging. 

28

So for me, to talk to these guys who had been abducted 15 years 

ago when they were very, very young and hear them talk about 

how the U.S. base was in many ways a beacon for them that they 

were trying to reach, and then they did reach there, and they were 

received and were able to return to their families, again, was just 

a powerful reminder that these defection campaigns can really 

have a positive impact. 

Mr. SMITH. Let me just ask you—all of you, if you would like to 

speak to it, but you have testified that the U.S. Government has 

not dedicated the appropriate mix of flexible context-appropriate 

intelligence and airlift capabilities to pursue the LRA. And given 

the heavily forested areas in which they operate, why do you think 

this strategy has developed, and what impact has it had on the 

success of the counter-LRA program? 

And I would just note parenthetically that in Vietnam, there was 

the defoliant Agent Orange; obviously, it caused many of our 

servicemembers and Vietnamese to become very, very sick. I used 

to chair the Veterans’ Affairs Committee, and the number of illnesses attributable to that are huge. 

But, since then, we have developed—and I have been to military 

bases where this technology is being deployed and actually affixed 

to helicopters—the look-down capability which is enormous for the 

U.S. military. Are we using that kind of capability? The ability to 

see through foliage is enormous, and I am wondering if that is 

being deployed, as far as you know. 

Mr. RONAN. I would say that to recognize the challenges that the 

U.S. advisers in the field are dealing with, the LRA is now really 

composed of 200 combatants that are spread over an area the size 

of California. So you don’t want to underestimate how difficult it 

is to find them in this area. 

At the same time, I do think that the U.S. could do a better job 

of ensuring that the helicopters and the ISR assets that are deployed out to these regions are appropriate to how the LRA operates. And I think that that is why it is very important that the 

U.S. continue to try to make sure that these assets and personnel 

are deployed in areas near the Kafia Kingi enclave and where 

Kony himself is operating. 

As far as the specific technology that is being used now, unfortunately, I don’t know exactly what that is. I don’t have access to 

that. But I would say that we have seen a very positive trend in 

what the advisers have been doing over the past year or so of really 

trying to talk to as many people as they can and to develop human 

intelligence. Because the LRA is interacting with many people in 

these areas, whether they are trying to sell ivory or acquire food, 

and that intelligence has led to actionable operations in the past 

that have been very successful. So that is an alternative approach 

that I think can be very useful. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. I would just also add that I think that the location 

issue that Paul highlighted is very important, because, for a while, 

U.S. advisers were deployed in an area of southeastern CAR that 

was pretty far away, frankly, from a lot of the LRA operating 

areas, so Kafia Kingi in northeastern Congo. We are learning that 

the U.S. advisers are moving closer to the LRA areas of operation 

29

now, which is good. That is something we have been advocating for, 

frankly. 

And it is difficult to operate in those areas. I mean, these are 

areas with no roads at all. It takes quite a bit of capacity from airlift to actually get there. 

I think that the defection issue and location of defection areas is 

another important consideration that the U.S. advisers and the 

Obama administration could put some more effort into, in terms of 

providing some more of these locations for LRA fighters to defect, 

right? They shouldn’t have to walk for 400 miles to get there, because that really is the safest area. There have been LRA people, 

LRA members who have been lynched in certain areas, as communities are afraid of the fighters. 

So I think there could be some more efforts there, but most of 

the attacks are happening now in northeastern Congo, so there is 

a need there, in particular. 

Mr. SMITH. Ms. Thelin, you said that the communities now feel 

that the LRA rule the bush. And I am wondering how this has impacted the relocation of villagers. Are people combining settlements 

or moving to what they perceive are safer zones? 

Ms. THELIN. In general, people who are in the town of Dungu, 

they are safer than the people who live in the villages. Because the 

LRA have changed their strategies now. They come publicly by the 

side road and captured people. And then they take two and hold 

two back. If they capture four of them, then they hold the two, and 

they give the two others money, send them to the market to buy 

food for them and bring it to the bush in order to release all the 

group. And they give them an ultimatum: Go to the market, buy 

food, bring it to us, and we will release all of you, or we kill all 

of you now. And they do as they are told, and they go buy food, 

they bring it. Once they bring it, then they will release them. 

So they don’t live far from the road, and now they are not scared. 

And I think they playing a mind game, just the way they started. 

At the beginning, they were in the market, people were thinking, 

oh, they are nice, they are just looking for a place to settle and they 

are not bothering us. And then the attacks started. And now the 

feeling is that they are getting very strong and powerful. They 

have money. They have everything. 

According to people who escaped them—it was in July when my 

brother, who works for the early warning radio system—so his 

group went to this village. So he was sick that day, didn’t go with 

them, but that group was captured by the LRA. And then they hold 

two of them, send two to the market to Dungu. So they come, and 

they noticed the authorities of what was happening. They said, 

okay, the group was captured by the LRA, they send us to the market, we are buying food, we are taking it back to them so in order 

to release the rest of the group who were there. And then they did, 

they took the food back. 

So when they were there, they see that the LRA have everything. 

They have a solar panel, they have a radio, they have machine 

guns, they have enough food, a lot of money. And they released 

them after 2 days, and they come home. 

So now is that the feel is that pretty soon the attacks will start 

again. 

30

Mr. SMITH. We have all read this morning’s front-page Washington Post story, and I am just wondering if you might want to 

comment. A very provocative headline: ‘‘U.S. Troops Have Turned 

to Some Unsavory Partners to Help Find Warlord Joseph Kony.’’

And the article talks about how U.S. forces have begun working 

closely with Muslim rebels, known as Seleka, who toppled the central government 2 years ago. And then it goes on. One official described the group as the mafia. 

And yet, as you read on, the answer from National Security 

Council spokesman Peter Boogaard is that U.S. forces do not provide intelligence or operational assistance to Seleka factions or 

other armed groups, though he acknowledged that our military advisers may meet with actors who have information on LRA activities. 

I would appreciate your comments on the article, because I know 

you have all read it. The $5 million that have been offered by 

State, have there been any takers or anything close to someone 

providing actionable information about what could be done? 

And, again, if I could again circle back to your testimony, Mr. 

Ronan, when you said that 417 Congolese civilians so far this year 

have been abducted, more than they abducted in any of the previous 4 years, as if there might be a shift in their modus operandi, 

what happens to those abductees? 

And then the 200 that we keep talking about that are still Kony’s 

killers, who are they? Are they child soldiers now grown up? If you 

could give us a sense, a profile of who we think they are, at least, 

it would be very helpful. All three of you. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. I will just start off with the first question. You 

asked a lot of questions at the same time, Mr. Smith, but that is 

perfectly fine. 

So, with regard to the Seleka Washington Post article, quite 

frankly, I think this is very misleading. First of all, U.S. forces 

need to be operating in that area, which is close to where Kony is 

located and, clearly, they need to communicate with any authorities 

or forces in that area, former Seleka commanders. Seleka is no 

longer an active force itself. There are former Seleka commanders 

who are in control of that area. 

This is not an Islamist, a jihadist group. They are not establishing Sharia law or anything like that. They have been in control 

of that area for roughly 10 years. So if anyone wants to move in 

and out of that area, they, of course, have to communicate to them. 

We have talked to our folks on the ground in that area. We do 

not have any knowledge that the U.S. has provided any financial 

assistance to the Seleka. We would obviously strongly condemn the 

U.S. providing any assistance, financial assistance, to those rebels, 

but we do not have any information. 

And, again, we think it is very important for the U.S. to be 

present in areas close to where Kony is. Otherwise, we will continue circling around here for another decade with this mission. 

Mr. RONAN. I would just like to reiterate everything from what 

Sasha just said. You know, I think that the Washington Post article did outline, you know, some of the challenges that U.S. forces 

in the region face, but an Islamist group that they are partnering 

31

with is not one of them. I think that the terminology that was used 

there was just inaccurate. 

As has been said, what the U.S. troops are doing is they are talking to people who have knowledge about where Kony and his fighters may be. They are not doing that in exchange for material support or for doing joint operations or anything like that. 

And, as I said before, I think that the human intelligence piece 

of this operation is something that we should be praising and not 

something that we should be overly concerned about in the way 

that was represented in that article. 

The one thing that I will add on to that is I do think that it is 

important for the State Department and the U.S. to clarify is that 

whatever conversations are happening between the U.S. military 

and these former Seleka, to make sure that those conversations are 

being coordinated with the response to the broader conflict in the 

CAR, which, as we have noted, has gotten much, much worse in 

the past few days. Again, we can’t see the LRA as in a vacuum. 

It is very much interconnected with what is happening in the 

broader region. 

On the question of the patterns of LRA abductions in the DRC, 

in Congo, fortunately, what we have seen over the past few years 

is, with the pressure that the U.S. and Ugandan troops are putting 

on the LRA, Kony doesn’t really have the capacity to do the mass 

child abductions and train them to join the LRA. We have seen a 

few cases of that, but a vast majority of the people that have been 

abducted over the past few years are adults, who are used to carry 

goods from their community into the bush for the use of the LRA, 

and then they are released. 

And I don’t want to understate or say that that is not important. 

Even being abducted for a few days is very traumatic. And the people in these areas often have not very many goods. So if you take 

their farming tools and their harvest and their seeds, then that can 

be really a terrible thing. 

And, as far as the 200 combatants left within the LRA, most of 

them, over 100, are Ugandans who were abducted as kids and are 

now adults. So they have really grown up within the LRA. And 

then maybe another 30 to 50 of them would be Congolese, South 

Sudanese, or central Africans who have been abducted in the past 

4 or 5 years and may be a bit younger. 

Mr. SMITH. The U.S. armed services that are deployed there, 

have there been any injuries, fatalities, years to date? 

Mr. RONAN. Not that I am aware of, no. 

Mr. SMITH. I have other questions, but I will yield to my good 

friend Ms. Bass and then come back. 

Ms. BASS. Thank you. 

Once again, thank you all for your testimony and taking the time 

out today to speak with us. 

I wanted to ask several questions. I wanted to follow up on a 

question that the chairman asked that I don’t think you guys responded to, and that is the $5 million. 

So I wanted to know, first of all, earlier this year, one of the LRA 

commanders was surrendered, captured—a little bit of difference 

there in terms of how people view it. What happened? Because if 

he surrendered or was captured, did anybody contribute to that? Is 

32

the $5 million still there? That is such a huge amount of money, 

it is hard for me to understand why that isn’t enough to generate 

his capture. 

Mr. RONAN. So, as far as Dominic Ongwen, who was a senior 

LRA commander indicted by the ICC in 2005, in late 2014, Kony 

basically put him under arrest within the LRA and indicated that 

he was going to kill him. So Dominic Ongwen, with the help of 

some other fighters within the LRA, was able to escape. 

And then, as you said, the sequence of events after that is a bit 

fuzzy, about whether he was captured or whether he surrendered. 

He was certainly trying to surrender. And he came into the custody 

of some former Seleka, who got in touch with the U.S. military in 

the town of Obo. And it is unclear if these former Seleka were even 

aware of who he was and the reward that they may have been eligible for, but they transferred him to the custody of the U.S. military. He was then taken to The Hague. So, again, to our knowledge, the $5 million, no part of that has 

been disbursed for Dominic’s arrest or his capture. 

One of the challenges that I think that we have seen, talking to 

the U.S. military as they have tried to implement this plan, is that 

many people in the region don’t believe it. And it is not because 

the $5 million is too little; it is because that is such a huge number 

that many people simply think that it is a trick. So, I think that 

there is a learning process that needs to happen about how to advertise this in a way that will incentivize people to contribute. 

Ms. BASS. I can actually understand that. Ms. Thelin, could you respond to that question? I mean, if $5 million is so much that it seems a trick—and I could kind of understand that, because it sounds like trillions—should it would be 

done differently? 

And so your thoughts, too, on two things: One, why that hasn’t 

delivered Kony; and then, two, in response to what Mr. Ronan was 

saying, does it need to be done differently? Is it a smaller amount? 

Outreach? How is it done? 

Ms. THELIN. Well, thank you for your question, but that is not 

in my expertise. 

Ms. BASS. Oh, no, no. Well, but I am asking you that from the 

perspective of you being from the area and given your past and 

continued relationship with the people, the culture, the community, 

the ties. That is why I am asking you. 

Ms. THELIN. So, first of all, I didn’t know anything about the 

money. 

Ms. BASS. You didn’t know about the $5 million? 

Ms. THELIN. I didn’t know about the money. 

Ms. BASS. Oh, boy. 

Ms. THELIN. And, second of all, people are really thankful for 

when the African Union troops got there, they were so happy, and 

with the U.S. advisers, and the things were going very good. And 

the people actually started staying outside. They feel like there is 

life coming back. 

But they still wonder why it is taking too long to capture Kony. 

You have done all these things; U.S. advisers are there, the African 

troops are there. But in the town of Dungu itself, life is okay, but 

it is overpopulated because everybody in the villages moved into 

33

the town, who used to be only for 20,000 people, but now I don’t 

know the number, but I feel like the roads are packed. They are 

just thinking that it is taking too long to capture Kony. 

Ms. BASS. Well, that is pretty dramatic for me to hear that you 

were not aware of it, considering you are active in the area. So 

maybe there is something that needs to be examined in terms of 

how we are getting the word out there. 

I wonder, Mr. Lezhnev, what happens the day after we capture 

Kony? I worry sometimes that our focus—and, obviously, I would 

like to see him captured. But, you know, with Boko Haram, with 

al-Qaeda, with the Taliban, I mean, we have captured leaders before, only to have them replaced the next day. 

So, given that the LRA has really been reduced in size, do we 

know anything about intelligence, second-line leadership, what 

would happen the day after we captured Kony? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. It is a great question. I think it is one that we 

have all been debating and talking about for several years. 

Frankly, the rest of the LRA’s leadership is very much decimated 

according to what it used to be. There were several commanders 

who were there from the late 1980s and early 1990s. They have all 

either been killed, defected, or are awaiting trial in The Hague. 

The ones who are rising up in the leadership now are Kony’s 

sons, who are young, 21, 23, 24. They are not—I do not think they 

have the capacity to lead this type of rebellion. 

I have spoken to so many ex-combatants who speak about Kony’s 

ability and spiritual powers, and that is why they follow him. And 

they believe those spiritual powers. And he has, of course, manipulated his control of information so that he knows when something 

is going to happen, and so that will appear to someone locally as 

him having powers. 

But in terms of what would happen after we would capture or 

kill Kony, I think that there would probably be a couple of LRA 

groups who would try to operate in the local areas. But if they 

knew that Kony was not there backing them up, giving them orders, resupplying them with arms, ammunition, food, medicine, et 

cetera, you know, the defections would increase pretty dramatically. 

I don’t think that the U.S. should give up then, that that should 

be the end of our program. I think that there need to be programs—recovery programs, rehabilitation programs, psychological 

programs like we talked about earlier, which are very important to 

help rebuild those areas. We are trying to get a specific road funded out in that area, which really hamstrings movement throughout 

that whole region. So that——

Ms. BASS. Who are you trying to get——

Mr. LEZHNEV. I would want to say something one other thing 

with regard to the $5 million. 

Ms. BASS. No. Who are you trying to get the fund the road? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. Well, the U.N., African Union——

Ms. BASS. So go ahead about——

Mr. LEZHNEV [continuing]. World Bank. 

Ms. BASS [continuing]. The $5 million. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. So, with the $5 million, one interesting thing that 

we uncovered in our new interviews with ex-combatants is that, for 

34

the first time in our lifetime of working on the LRA, there has been 

a serious attempt on Joseph Kony’s life, that his bodyguards actually tried to kill him. They failed, and so, therefore, they ran very 

quickly away. But, you know, that speaks to some of the pressure. 

It is really too bad that many local communities are not aware 

of this $5 million reward, and so we obviously need to do a much 

better job at communicating that and also communicate it in local 

terms. But several of the military folks in LRA, they are aware of 

it. 

And, also, I think that helps Kony stick in an area that is pretty 

depopulated. There is, of course, the possibility and many rumors 

circulating that he would go to south Darfur, which would be further in Sudanese territory, et cetera. The fact that he is not moving 

in there, I think, is largely a result of this $5 million, because people are more aware there, and they would like to get that money. 

And that is a much more populated area. 

Ms. BASS. Did the bodyguards escape? You said they ran away. 

Did they escape? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. They defected, yeah. 

Ms. BASS. They did? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. Uh-huh. 

Ms. BASS. Do you know if there is any effort to involve them in 

the search for him? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. Absolutely. Yeah. 

Do you want to talk about that? 

Mr. RONAN. Yeah. Just to add that these same defectors that 

tried to kill Kony were the ones that I was talking about before. 

When they did escape, they made a beeline for the U.S. base, because they knew that that was a place where they——

Ms. BASS. I see. 

Mr. RONAN [continuing]. Could safely go. And as a result of intelligence that they gave to the U.S. and the Ugandan troops, there 

was an arms cache and some food stores that were destroyed on 

the central African side of the border with Sudan. 

Ms. BASS. You know, you mentioned at the beginning—I am not 

sure which one; it might have been you, Mr. Ronan—about the gold 

and diamonds, I think. Where is that coming from? Is that coming 

from the DRC? How are they lined up to get that? I understand 

the poaching; that is obvious. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. So it is mostly looting in the Central African Republic. That area is pretty well known for its gold and diamond 

mines. Of course, CAR diamonds are some of the most famous in 

the world for their quality. 

The defectors that we interviewed talked about Kony having jars 

of gold nuggets and, sort of, a half-liter bottle of diamonds waiting 

to sell for the right time. There were some rumors that he was 

going to buy anti-personnel land mines to encircle him so that no 

one could attack his positions. That, of course, doesn’t work very 

well if you have helicopters and so forth, but anyways. 

So, yeah, it is mostly looting and from artisanal mining. They 

have not set up, as far as we know, more complex conflict-minerals 

type of operations where they actually operate mines. Not yet. 

Ms. BASS. Thank you. 

35

And, Ms. Thelin, you might have mentioned this earlier before I 

returned, but could you talk about your organization, the work 

your organization does? And then do you receive any support from 

the U.S. Government? 

Ms. THELIN. Well, my organization is very small. I can call it just 

a baby organization. So I got my 501(c)(3) in December 2014. And 

basically I started working at a school. I give them nice, clean 

water. They dig a well and put a pump. And then now we are in 

the process of building latrines and handwashing stations. 

And, also, I have big ambitions, but I don’t know where the 

money would come from. But it will happen someday. 

Ms. BASS. It is okay. What are the ambitions? Ambitions first, 

money second. 

Ms. THELIN. So I want to help because to have a good community, that means a healthy community. So if we want to be really 

good, like, we need strong people, good health, so they need clean 

water. And I have to build some 60 more wells and build latrines. 

Now they don’t have public latrines. And we have many people, 

and it is really not good, the sanitation is not good. 

And also I need, like, some kind of equipment for the hospital. 

We have a big hospital, it is an original hospital. But the only 

thing, when I visited this January, the only equipment that was 

there was a 60-year-old microscope and a refrigerator with vaccines. So people with broken legs and all kinds of critical conditions, they take the bus and go on this nightmarish road, dusty 

road, to Goma or to Bunia to get the treatment. They don’t have 

x-ray, MRI, or any kind of salt. And that is my ambition. 

So, this summer, I made some Congolese food and some barbecue 

in my backyard to raise money for latrines, and I did well. I think 

I did a little over $10,000. 

Ms. BASS. That is great from a barbecue. 

Ms. THELIN. Some people of goodwill helped me. They were just 

so passionate about my speech and what my community is going 

through, and they helped, and now that latrine is in the process. 

Ms. BASS. Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much, Ms. Bass. 

Let me just ask you, Mr. Lezhnev. You have reminded us of the 

terrible toll that the LRA has imposed upon innocent people—the 

abduction of more than 66,000 children, 100,000 deaths over the 

past 28 years. And then you talked about the displaced, down from 

1.8 million to 200,000 today. 

200,000 is an enormous number of people displaced, and I am 

wondering if you can tell us, maybe break that out a little bit further—who they are, where they are, how they are faring, and the 

prospects, if there are any, in the near term, intermediate term for 

return. 

And then you also, in talking about the blood ivory trade, point 

out that—and I thought this was amazing, sadly, tragic—that you 

can trade one tusk from an elephant for up to 25 boxes of bullets. 

And there are over 700 bullets in a box. That comes out to 17,500 

bullets. That is a lot of ammo. And you have talked about how 

Kony seems to have more resources like more ammo recently. 

36

Who is buying the ivory, and how much of that clientele might 

be Americans? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. I will answer the ivory question first, and I will 

defer to Paul on the displacement figures. 

With regard to the ivory, we are heavily investigating that. It is 

pretty difficult to access the Kafia Kingi area because it is controlled by Sudan, and they don’t like to allow visas for people like 

us on the panel to access that area. But, nevertheless, we are doing 

our best to investigate it, and particularly with LRA defectors who 

were involved in the ivory trade. 

I interviewed one of the big LRA ivory traders a few months ago. 

There are a couple of buyers that are based in Sudan. There are 

some merchants in this town called Songo. We are told that there 

are some Sudan Armed Forces commanders who were also buying 

the ivory. They obviously have the bullets. The LRA is also needing 

food and medical supplies and so forth, so the local merchants will 

supply those. And then it mainly gets traded to Asia. 

So there is a lot more effort needed in terms of helping law enforcement inspect ports. And that trade is likely going from Port 

Sudan on to places like Dubai and then onward to China, and so 

there is a need to help the customs and border patrol and law enforcement in those areas to intercept those containers. 

Frankly, right now, it is pretty difficult to identify which containers they are, but we started a new initiative at Enough called 

The Sentry, and The Sentry is really conducting these investigations into the financing of conflicts. So we hope to come with new 

information about this, about which containers need to be intercepted and which traders need to be sanctioned. 

Mr. RONAN. And on the issue of displacement, I want to thank 

you, actually, for how you framed that. Because I think many times 

people say, oh, there has been a drop from 1.8 million to 200,000, 

and that is not very many. And you are absolutely right to point 

out that is an enormous amount of people. And, in fact, the vast 

majority of them are Congolese and live right in the areas near 

where Francisca is from. 

And I would also like to say that there are some analysts that 

actually think that that 200,000 number is quite a bit higher. 

And just to reiterate, the reason why many people are displaced, 

even if the number of attacks has gone down, is because the memory of the massacres that the LRA did in 2008, 2009, and 2010, 

they are never going to leave the memories of the people that had 

to witness them. So, even if the LRA is not as violent as it once 

was, the legacy that they have really has a ripple effect that will 

keep people displaced as long as Kony is free. 

I would also like to point out that, in these same areas where 

a majority of displaced people live in Congo are, due to a drop in 

funding from the donor community, there has been a withdrawal 

of 16 of the 19 international humanitarian groups that had been 

providing much-needed food, water, and sanitation. Many of the 

groups that were operational there have had to withdraw, and it 

is not because there is a decrease in the number of people that 

need the services. 

37

And, of course, I have seen, myself, the incredible work that the 

Congolese themselves are doing in trying to address these needs, 

but there is a need for renewed international funding, as well. 

Mr. SMITH. The African Union forces that are being advised by 

the 100 Americans deployed there, could you maybe give us some 

insights that might be unique to your experiences about who they 

are, how well they are doing, how many are there? What kind of 

capabilities do they have, like airlifts, or is that all ours? I am just 

wondering how robust of an effort is that by the AU. 

Mr. RONAN. Yeah. Thanks. 

On the question of the AURTF and the troops that are deployed 

out there, again, I want to recognize the bravery of many of those 

soldiers, who are often not very well-equipped and are tasked with 

walking through some dangerous, dangerous jungles in order to 

find dangerous people. 

Now, that said, it is unfortunate that I have to report that none 

of the countries that have dedicated troops to the AU force to track 

the LRA have been able to fulfill the obligations that they signed 

up for. 

And this, again, brings back the issue of regional instability, 

where in South Sudan and in the Central African Republic we have 

seen, you know, massive problems that have prevented those governments——

Mr. SMITH. How far short have they been? 

Mr. RONAN. I believe that the Ugandan Army has come the closest. They have around 1,000 troops, I believe, is the number that 

they said that they have dedicated, which is about half of what 

they were committed for. And the Ugandan troops are really doing 

the bulk of these operations. They are the ones that we can largely 

attribute the decrease in the number of combatants to. 

The South Sudanese and the central Africans really have hundreds, if not dozens, of troops that they have been able to dedicate, 

which is far, far lower than what they had said. 

There has been a ray of hope, I think, with the U.S. advisers 

working with the very small number of Congolese troops that have 

been doing operations in and around Garamba Park, which is 

where the LRA gets much of its ivory. So that hasn’t provided 

much success yet, but I think it is a positive step. 

Mr. SMITH. Can I just ask you, should the administration phase 

out or terminate the U.S. deployment, what impact would that 

have on the Ugandans and others in terms of their commitment to 

troops? 

Mr. LEZHNEV. It would have a devastating and debilitating impact. 

Paul and I were witness to the solely Ugandan-led operations for 

many years in northern Uganda and further. Frankly, although, 

overall, over many years, it was a war of attrition and LRA numbers slowly went down, there were so many botched operations, 

many times when the Ugandans supposedly wouldn’t have the fuel 

for a helicopter to go and chase Kony. A third of the Ugandan 

Army were listed as ghost soldiers during that time. 

So the intelligence collection, the efforts to pursue Kony, the decimation of their leadership—again, four of the five top commanders 

are no longer in action—those are results of successful operations 

38

that the U.S. has helped really coordinate and really improve the 

capacity. So if the U.S. advisers were to go away, I think we would 

definitely see a resurgence in the LRA. 

Mr. SMITH. A very timely caution. And we will convey that to the 

administration immediately and take your words, if you don’t 

mind, backed up by our observations. And I am sure Karen and I 

and others on the committee will want to put into a letter immediately that kind of question, because that would be devastating. 

I would like to yield to Sheila Jackson Lee, the gentlelady from 

Texas. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman, forgive me for rushing in and 

rushing out. I want to thank you for your courtesies. I am not a 

member of the committee, and you have always extended to me a 

courtesy. 

Forgive me. The loud phone that was ringing was calling me to 

the floor, so I apologize. 

I want to thank Ms. Bass, as well, for always being gracious. 

This is a passion of mine, the continent. And these issues of conflict, we have worked on these for a number of years. So I want 

to thank you for your leadership and the leadership of this subcommittee. 

I will be asking cross-examination questions, and I thank you for 

indulging me on these. 

It looks as if Mr. Kony has been here since the beginning of civilization. It looks like it has been so long that my frustration level 

has gone—now you are telling me that his children—and if we are 

here and blessed by life and you come back and tell me his grandchildren, then I know that we are—not that you are doing something—that we haven’t done what we needed to do. 

So if I might draw something to the chairman’s attention, and I 

want to submit into the record—and please note that I am going 

to make the connection, as we do sometimes in the courtroom in 

a prosecution case. But I want to note, Mr. Chairman, the speech 

of President Buhari of Nigeria before the United Nations, and I 

want to commend some language very quickly. 

I would ask unanimous consent if I might put this in the record. 

Mr. SMITH. Without objection, so ordered. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. He speaks about peace. He talks about the 

sustainable efforts of the United Nations. And he says, Nigeria has 

contributed to U.N. peacekeeping efforts in Ethiopia, Liberia, Sierra Leone, et cetera, just to reflect upon what they have done in 

the past. 

Then he goes on to say that ‘‘[p]eace . . . is close to the hearts 

of Nigerians, as we are in the front line in the war on terror. Boko 

Haram’s war against the people of Nigeria, Chad, Niger, and Cameroon may not attract as much worldwide attention as the wars in 

the Middle East’’ but the people are suffering. 

‘‘This war is about values between progress and chaos; between 

democracy and the rule of law. Boko Haram celebrates violence 

against the weak and the innocent and deplorably, they hide behind their perverted interpretation of Islam. Boko Haram is as far 

away from Islam as anyone can think of.’’

So I make the nexus to—first, I want to congratulate the newlyelected President, Mr. Buhari. We met with him in Nigeria, and he 

39

made a commitment that he was going to end the siege of Boko 

Haram by the end of 2015. 

So I raise these questions about the involvement—first, my number-one question is—and let me mind my manners and thank all 

of the witnesses. 

And, particularly, Ms. Thelin, thank you for your passion. And, 

of course, $10,000, as you well know, the story of the fishes and 

loaves—you may know it; it is in the Christian faith—which means 

you get a little bit and then it multiplies. And we look forward to 

seeing your work multiply. 

But my question is to you. And I again want to offer sympathy 

to Ms. Thelin for losing over two dozen of your family members, 

and I think sometimes we tend to forget that. 

But on this issue of Mr. Kony, who is now passing his legacy on, 

I have several questions. One, where is the African Union in this, 

and where are the surrounding nations? I know, obviously, in central Africa, he is surrounded by Uganda, Rwanda. But where is the 

African Union, as its ability under its charter to utilize troops in 

this instance? 

The other is on the question of the gold, the diamonds, and, obviously, the ivory. What role do American consumers, purchasers, individuals like the dentist who went to Zimbabwe almost as I was 

there and that unfortunately saw the demise of Cecil the lion—but 

what role do we play in that? 

And have you any comment on the—or let me say that I thank 

them, but I just want to know what the comment might be as the 

U.S. special operations are pointedly working and have drawn together some unique characters as their collaborators under the African Command. 

I happen to be a strong supporter of AFRICOM, because it was 

under our watch a couple years ago that we fought for AFRICOM—

in this instance, the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Congressional Black Caucus. And I think they play a vital role for peace 

in Africa. 

So I see you taking notes, so I will yield on those questions. And 

I know that you will, in your answers, as you did to the chairman, 

say what we can do. But I don’t think I can hear one more moment 

that the grandchildren now have taken over from Kony without us 

bringing this to an end. 

Let me thank you very much. 

Ms. THELIN. So I would have to say that, when the African 

Union got to Dungu, everybody—I received a lot of calls from my 

family that everybody was happy that their presence was there at 

that time, because in 4 years that was the first time people could 

be outside of the compound in the morning, early morning or in the 

evening, the hours that mostly LRA was supposed to attack. 

And, also, when U.S. special advisers came, everything seems to 

be nice. But, again, it just looks like they are not pursuing Kony, 

and it is taking too long. Because even though the presence is 

there, the LRA are still abducting people. They will come past the 

United Nations compound—I don’t know how—and in a few meters 

from the compound and abduct people in the light, bright light day, 

and attack and killing. 

40

So people sometimes are so disappointed that, okay, America is 

a superpower, so if really they decided to capture Kony, they would 

do so in no time, but it is taking too long. But they are thankful 

that you are doing what you are doing already, and they are hoping 

that he will be captured some time soon. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you, ma’am. And I would only say to 

you that, when we have our U.S. special ops on the ground, you 

can be assured they are focused and pointed, and maybe sometimes 

unseen, but purposely functioning. 

I hope that the chairman—I heard his question before, but I 

would like to find a way to get a further answer from the African 

Union—not from you; I heard what you said—for their enhanced 

work. They may be at the limits of what they can do. And with that 

collaboration, the African Union of course doing what they are 

doing and the limits of what we can do with our particular guidelines of use on the continent, I can assure you that the special ops 

of the United States military, particularly AFRICOM there, that 

they are focused. But I thank you. 

You two gentlemen, if you could take a stab at the other two, and 

I will listen as I have to run to the floor. But thank you so very 

much. 

Thank you, madam, very much for that answer. 

Ms. THELIN. Thank you. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. Thank you so much for your questions. 

Just regarding the ivory and the gold and the diamonds, most 

ivory goes to China for consumption there, but there is still some 

that comes here. And so Congress’ efforts to combat wildlife trafficking are very important. And the new Obama administration 

draft regulations that are starting to put in place a ban on the 

ivory trade in the United States are very important. 

The Fish and Wildlife Service came out recently with a de minimis exception for some very limited ivory trade, for example, in 

bows of violins and cellos and those kind of things. There is a danger that if you allow that de minimus exception to be too high that, 

in fact, that would be a major loophole, and we would not want 

that. You can break a tusk into 100 pieces——

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Yeah. 

Mr. LEZHNEV [continuing]. Or 1,000 pieces, you know, that 

doesn’t make the trade any less valuable. 

So what we really need to do is cut that trade down and make 

sure that that de minimus exception is very low. So any efforts 

from Congress to weigh in with the administration on that issue 

would be more than welcome. 

New York State already has that de minimus exception. California is also passing a law on this, waiting for the Governor’s signature. 

So with regard to pressing China on this issue. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Yeah. 

Mr. LEZHNEV. We were very happy to see the President pressing 

the Chinese President just last week on the ivory, and they did 

come out with a pretty strong statement on that. But that needs 

followup. This is a pretty lucrative business out there. 

With regard to gold and diamonds, gold is still a commodity that 

is used for money laundering, terrorist financing. There was a reVerDate 0ct 09 2002 16:23 Oct 28, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_AGH\093015\96818 SHIRL
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cent FATF report which talked about gold and money laundering 

in use by various rebel groups around the world, including in 

Congo. And, in particular, there are some conflict traders out there 

that need to be the focus of investigations and targeted sanctions. 

We, ourselves, are investigating some of those in the Middle East 

at the moment and will be happy to provide the subcommittee with 

more information on that as we get it. We are writing a report and 

have some whistleblowers within some of these organizations that 

are trading the conflict gold. 

I will let Paul answer, though. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you very much. Thank you. 

Mr. RONAN. On the AU involvement, I think that the African 

Union’s approach to counter the LRA was unique, in the sense that 

the force that they have deployed is an AU-authorized force and 

not an AU-mandated force. And that distinction has basically 

meant that the AU itself is providing very little support to the 

Ugandan, the South Sudanese, the Central African, and the Congolese troops that are out there. So it is really up to the countries 

themselves to equip their troops, which would be different than 

how most AU and U.N. peacekeeping operations work. 

And, unfortunately, if the LRA is operating in your country, it 

is the canary in the coal mine. It is not the reason why your country is allowing a group like this to operate, but it is taking advantage of that. 

So, by leaving it up to the countries themselves to provide all of 

the support to their troops, we are left where we are now, which 

is that the Ugandans are really the only force out there that is capable of really pursuing the LRA, and even their capacity has been 

very, very limited. 

So I think that this has revealed some of the weaknesses from 

an AU and an international perspective as far as how they approach this and reinforces the need to make sure that we have adequate troops there and that they have the equipment that they 

need to actually pursue the LRA in an effective manner. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. 

Thank you so much. You have given me work to do. 

Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman, for your kindness. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you. We are glad to have you. 

That concludes the hearing. I, first of all, want to just thank you 

on behalf of the subcommittee for your testimonies and your leadership. It is a privilege to receive expert testimony from such highly informed, highly motivated, and wise leaders. We really benefit 

greatly. The people who are suffering will benefit from this, as they 

have already by your leadership. 

And we will contact the administration; I know that is why we 

did it now, to get your insights right now so that they make the 

right decision, which I believe they will do, to keep this important 

program going. 

So anything you want to ever add within the period of time for 

this hearing but also on the issue itself, particularly as it relates 

to the other countries. The members of this subcommittee, including the chairman and Greg Simpkins, our staff director, and other 

members of the staff, we are in constant contact with the leaders 

of these countries and if there is something we need to convey to 

42

any of these other people, please let us know, and we can bring 

that word to them, again, from such experts. 

The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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