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97–352 PDF 2015

S. HRG. 114–99 

ADVANCING ECONOMIC SUCCESS IN INDIAN 

COUNTRY 

FIELD HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MAY 27, 2015 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Indian Affairs 

( 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS 

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming, Chairman 

JON TESTER, Montana, Vice Chairman 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska 

JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota 

JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma 

STEVE DAINES, Montana 

MIKE CRAPO, Idaho 

JERRY MORAN, Kansas 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

TOM UDALL, New Mexico 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

T. MICHAEL ANDREWS, Majority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

ANTHONY WALTERS, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Field hearing held on May 27, 2015 ....................................................................... 1 

Statement of Senator Lankford .............................................................................. 1 

WITNESSES

Kouplen, Sean, Chairman/CEO, Regent Bank; Chairman of the Board, 

OneFire Holding Company .................................................................................. 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 7 

Narcomey, Frank, President, Southwind Construction Services, LLC ............... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 9 

Overal, Dottie, District Director, Oklahoma District Office, U.S. Small Business Administration ............................................................................................. 15 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 17 

Ruttman, Dennis, CEO/Superintendent, Caddo Kiowa Technology Center ....... 11 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 13 

Southard, Clark, Lieutenant Colonel (U.S. Army, Ret.); Executive Director, 

Washita Valley Regional Partnership; Chairman, Oklahoma Southwest Alliance; And Vice Chairman, Delaware Nation Economic Development Authority .......................................................................................................................... 18 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 22 

APPENDIX

Anderson, Michael G., Executive Director, Native American Contractors Association, prepared statement ................................................................................ 40 

Bills, Kay, Osage; Pamela Standing, Cherokee; and Kristi Daniels-Long, 

Coeur d’ Alene, joint prepared statement .......................................................... 65 

Byrd, James K., Member, Muscogee (Creek) Nation, prepared statement ......... 43 

Citizen Potawatomi Nation, prepared statement .................................................. 35 

Parton, Hon. Terri, President, Wichita and Affiliated Tribes, prepared statement ...................................................................................................................... 41 

Ray, James, Project Director, MBDA Business Center—Tulsa, Native American and Alaska Native Program, prepared statement ..................................... 65 

Tiger, George P., Principal Chief, Muscogee (Creek) Nation, prepared statement ...................................................................................................................... 44 

(1) 

ADVANCING ECONOMIC SUCCESS IN INDIAN 

COUNTRY 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 27, 2015 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, Anadarko, OK 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:30 p.m. in the 

Anadarko High School auditorium, Hon. James Lankford, presiding. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES LANKFORD, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM OKLAHOMA 

Senator LANKFORD. Good evening, everyone. I’d like to call to 

order this field hearing of this Senate Indian of Affairs Committee. 

Today we will receive advancing economics success in the Indian 

Country. I’m very honored everyone is here. I’ll give a more formal 

introduction and preparation. But to begin this evening Riverside 

School’s color guard will now present the colors. 

Please rise. 

[Ceremonial opening with the color guard.] 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you. You may be seated. Thank you 

to the Riverside School for taking the time to be here with us today 

for the color guard. I appreciate you being here. Let’s give them a 

clap here. 

[Applause.] 

Senator LANKFORD. Before we begin the hearing and this testimony, I want to thank some of our hosts, Anadarko High School, 

for allowing us to use the auditorium. Superintendent Hackney, are 

you here, I saw you here earlier. I want to make sure that—there 

she is right there in the back; and then Principal Sparks as well, 

thank you for doing this. You’re trying to get everyone out of this 

building as summer time begins and we’re still bringing people in, 

so I appreciate you here and for opening up this facility. 

Also, thanks to the city of Anadarko for hosting us today. It’s 

been a great visit today. Got a chance to visit with Mayor 

Eastwood, City Manager Corn, so many different Tribal Leaders 

today through the entire area—thank you for what you have done 

to make this day run smoothly. 

And finally, I’d like to thank the staff of the Committee on Indian Affairs for all the work that they have done. Many of them 

are sitting behind me today and they work with the Senate Committee. They are from all over the country, and it is important to 

be able to be a part of this. 

2 

We have quite a few Trial Leaders that are also here today that 

have been apart of this. 

If you’re a Tribal Chief, Chairman, Governor, or President, or 

other leader—from the Tribal elective leader from the tribes, would 

you please stand right now so we can recognize you and thank you 

for being here. 

[Applause.] 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you very much. Thank you for being 

here. 

A couple of weeks ago I sent a letter to Tribal Leaders in Oklahoma asking them to submit for the record, testimony on economic 

success they’ve achieved and roadblocks they’re facing to further 

success. 

Thank you to those of you that have submitted. We have received 

several of those, and thank you for that. Others that would like to 

still submit those for the record, it is not too late. I’m going to hold 

the official record open for the next two weeks. Any tribe that 

would like to specifically list some of their insights for the congressional record, I will leave the record open for the next two weeks 

on that as well. 

Also, I’d like to thank Secretary Chris Benge. As I understand, 

Secretary Benge is also here, right there. Thank you for being here 

as well, representing the state of Oklahoma. So I appreciate you 

being here, Secretary Benge, as well. 

There’s still a lot of work to be done to ensure Native American 

children grow up with the same opportunities as every American 

child. Still a lot of uncertainty; the real definition of sovereignty. 

And the best way for tribal government is to both serve their citizens and the members and also be good neighbors to the communities and states around them. There’s also a lot of work that’s 

happening that’s positive things among our tribes and communities, especially here in Oklahoma. Our tribes are a model for 

tribes around the country on economic development, education, 

health care, and countless other areas. Tribes in Oklahoma, led by 

many of the people that are here today, contributed over 10 billion 

dollars to the State economy. Many tribes in rural areas, the tribe 

is often the largest employer, making very important contributions 

to communities all over our state. 

Economic development is not the solution to every problem in Indian Country today. However, tribal governments and individual 

Native Americans who find economic success are more likely to 

achieve the necessary stability and strength that enables them to 

deal with other issues they face. 

The tribes who achieve true sovereignty and prosperity will be 

those who focus on the importance of the family, caring for their 

neighbors, remaining to the true core values that make up every 

Native American community. 

Today’s conversation with these five witnesses will help shine a 

light on how Oklahoma tribes and individual business owners have 

achieved economic success. We’ll get into the barriers that have 

been overcome and still must be overcome in the days ahead to 

achieve sustainable economic stability. We’ll also hear how banks 

can help tribes and Native American businesses leverage money to 

build in the development they’ve already achieved. From an educaVerDate Mar 15 2010 11:52 Nov 03, 2015 Jkt 097352 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DOCS\97352.TXT JACK
3 

tor, we’ll hear how schools can help ensure the next generation of 

Native Americans are ready to continue the work done by today’s 

leaders. 

From the SBA, we’ll hear how Federal programs can be used as 

a starting point for economic growth and so many other areas. I’m 

very pleased to be able to have this conversation. 

Now, this is a unique hearing. If any of you have been to an economic development hearing or, specifically, a hearing in Washington, D.C.—what’s interesting about a hearing like this is everything goes on the congressional record. I have a wonderful person 

sitting right behind me that types in every word that we say to put 

it on the actual record, as well as there’s a recording of this. This 

is very similar to any hearing that we would have in Washington, 

D.C. The difference is individuals are able to engage here in Oklahoma. So all of this will go into the official congressional record for 

the United States Senate—all of the testimony. So no pressure, but 

everything you say is being recorded and going into the official 

record. 

It’s also extremely important that we receive testimony from different tribes. The individuals that are on the dais here today represent individuals or businesses or the SBA, to be able to talk 

about economic development in Indian Country. But we’ve also 

asked Tribal Leaders to send in documents to represent individual 

tribes with different ideas. If you would also like to contribute 

something to the official record and you have something to submit 

around this topic, feel free to also submit that and you can send 

that to my office in the next two weeks and we’ll hold the record 

open for the next two weeks, to be able to submit those to get in 

on the record. So that makes this a unique conversation as we walk 

through this. 

The format of this is I’ll introduce our five witnesses. Each of 

them will have about five minutes to be able to actually contribute 

orally. They’ve already submitted also a written statement to go in 

the permanent record and then I’m going to field questions back 

and forth with you as well, and that will be part of the record as 

well. 

So, let me introduce our witnesses. It is a custom of our committee to swear them in, I’ll do that at the end of all our introductions. 

Sean Kouplen is the President and CEO of Oklahoma based Region Bank. He’s led a group of investors in purchasing the bank in 

2008, and under his leadership the bank has tripled in size. He’s 

been long active with program support in community and economic 

development. He’s also Chairman of the Board for OneFire Holdings, the business arm in the Muscogee Creek Nation. A graduate 

of Oklahoma State University. He’s been married to his wife, Angela, for 15 years and has three children. Thanks for being here, 

Sean. 

Mr. KOUPLEN. Thank you. 

Senator LANKFORD. Frank Narcomey is the founder and President of Southwind Construction Services LLC, a small, general construction firm, specializing in private sector and government design-build type projects. Frank is an Oklahoma native, half Seminole/Creek and a member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, a 

4 

graduate of Oklahoma State University. He founded Southwind in 

1991 and has been very active in his community. Southwind is a 

graduate of the SBA’s AA Program and since graduation has assisted other companies as they were to successfully complete the 

program. He’s been married to his wife, Cindy for many years and 

has two grown children. 

Dottie Overal is the U.S. Small Business Administration Oklahoma District Director; a Native of Philadelphia. She has served in 

management positions in the SBA throughout the country. She was 

appointed as a district director for Oklahoma in 2000, in this capacity, she and her staff of 12 provide access to capital, counseling, 

contracts—or assistance after natural disaster to the 77 counties in 

Oklahoma. Her office also administers the SBA’s 8(a) Business Development Program in Oklahoma. 

Dennis Ruttman began his career as a business owner with his 

father in Woodward, Oklahoma and operated it for nearly 20 years. 

He joined the Oklahoma Department of Career Tech in 1989 as the 

Skill Center Instructor and later became an administrator. In 

2004, he became Business and Industry Services Director at Pioneer Technology Center in Ponca City and was heavily involved in 

the business recruitment and retention efforts of the Ponca City 

Development Authority. He returned to the Oklahoma Department 

of Career Tech as the Associate State Director in 2008 before accepting his current position as the Superintendent/CEO of Caddo 

Kiowa Technology Center. Thanks for being here. 

Lieutenant Colonel Clark Southard is the Executive Director of 

the Wichita Valley Regional Partnership, a regional economic development consortium based out of Fort Cobb, Oklahoma. He also 

serves as Chairman of the Oklahoma Southwest Alliance, a 20- 

county economic development organization in Southwest Oklahoma 

and Vice-Chairman of the Delaware Nation Economic Development 

Authority. He served in the United States Army for 29 years before 

retiring in 2003. 

Thanks for your service in that. 

He returned to his native Oklahoma in 2008 to assist with economic development activities in Southwest Oklahoma, where he 

now resides. 

I want to also recognize Pamela, who is not here with us. We had 

one other witness that was planning to join us today. Pamela could 

not be here because she is actually taking cancer treatments—actually today and was not going to be able to join us, but that she had 

been invited originally for that. And if you all don’t mind, she’s in 

the thick of treatments—if you all don’t mind, I’d like to pray for 

her for just a moment and then we’ll swear our witnesses in. 

Father, thanks for allowing us to have this conversation. I do 

pray for Pamela, as she deals with very difficult days. I know she 

would much rather be here. I pray you sustain her and her family 

and carry her through the very difficult treatments ahead. Give her 

strength and health in her body in the days ahead. Help us in this 

conversation today, in your name I pray, Amen. 

[Response.] 

Senator LANKFORD. It is the custom of the senate committees to 

swear in witnesses before we begin testimony, so if you would all 

please rise. 

5 

[Witnesses rise.] 

Senator LANKFORD. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly 

swear or affirm the testimony that you’re about to give before this 

committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 

truth, so help you God? 

All WITNESSES. I do. 

Senator LANKFORD. Let the record reflect that all the witnesses 

answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. 

Mr. Kouplen, no pressure, but you are first up, and we’ll be glad 

to be able to receive your testimony right now. 

STATEMENT OF SEAN KOUPLEN, CHAIRMAN/CEO, REGENT 

BANK; CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, ONEFIRE HOLDING 

COMPANY 

Mr. KOUPLEN. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Senator, and the fact 

that we are witnesses—we just were sworn in and every word we’re 

saying is on the record makes me a little nervous, I don’t mind telling you. 

It’s very good to be with all of you. As the Senator mentioned, 

my name is Sean Kouplen. I am a banker by trade, I also invest 

in a number of small businesses and am a member of the Creek 

Nation, serving as Chairman of the their Onefire Holding Company. 

This is a topic that is very dear—near and dear to my heart, 

both, because of where I live, because of my family, and because 

of the industry that I serve in. And so, my comments, which I will 

just summarize for the audience and for the record really deal with 

kind of a number of areas where I believe we could do better, as 

it pertains to economic development in Indian Country. 

First and foremost, when you think about the keys to investment 

and the keys to attracting investment and being able to open up 

and grow businesses, you really have to think about what we call 

in banking, are the five C’s of credit. You look at the individual’s 

cash flow or their history of being able to produce cash flow. You 

look at the individual’s credit, their past ability to meet their obligations, their character or their reputation within the community, 

their capacity, their ability to recover. Small business is, as Dottie 

knows, is very difficult and you go through many ups and downs. 

And, you know, the ability to kind of recover from those either via 

liquidity or net worth. 

And then, finally, collateral, in the event that the bank has made 

the loan and things don’t work out. We can’t afford to make very 

many bad loans or we’re—we go under. So, when you think from 

an investor perspective, it’s very similar, you’re looking for the lowest risk, highest return investment that you can find. 

So as it relates to how do we achieve those things in Indian 

Country and for our Native American population. So my thoughts 

would be—first and foremost is, I have studied to prepare for this. 

There are many great programs available. I think first and foremost is training and outreach. I know in my industry, in banking, 

I think there are a number of programs that I have learned about 

in the last 48 hours that I didn’t know existed. And I think much 

of that is because both our SBA and Bureau of Indian Affairs—BIA 

offices are scantily funded, if you will. They just don’t have the peoVerDate Mar 15 2010 11:52 Nov 03, 2015 Jkt 097352 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DOCS\97352.TXT JACK
6 

ple necessary to get out in the communities and provide training 

and outreach to those of us that are in the communities. 

I thought about ways to enhance economic investment for Native 

Americans. First of all, I would expand government guaranteed 

programs. For those that are not familiar, when a bank makes a 

loan, many times there is a weakness within the loan that is difficult to mitigate. Maybe they don’t have enough collateral or they 

don’t have the equity—the down payment needed or they don’t 

have quite as much experience as you would like to see, but you 

want to make that loan. One of the ways we were able to make it 

is primarily through government guaranteed programs, through 

the Small Business Administration or Bureau of Indian Affairs. 

Well, just take the BIA—Dottie will talk about the SBA—but just 

take the BIA for example, they have about $100,000,000 available 

to them in guarantees. That is—that’s basically been used up this 

year. There are projects waiting to be funded that are not going to 

get funded because there’s not enough allocated to them. And, you 

know, they’re in essence, kind of a one-man show or one-woman 

show here in Oklahoma. So, first and foremost, would be expanding. I would recommend expanding that—the allocation to the BIA. 

Second of all, further development of Buy Indian programs. I 

think that we’ve done a great job through Artero (phonetic) programs within the tribes, of expanding Indian employment. I don’t 

think we have done as good a job of promoting that our government 

contractors and other organizations buy Indian—that they buy 

products from Indian-owned companies. 

And finally, I would really look at—from a guarantee perspective, 

I would look at the model that the Section 184 Housing Program 

has proven. We have done 11,336 Section 184 home loans in Oklahoma, to date. This was shocking to me. That’s as much as the entire country all put together. That’s a 100 percent guaranteed program that allows individuals—Native Americans, that otherwise 

probably couldn’t get approved for a home, to get a bank loan. I 

think it’s a fantastic model for what we could do for Native American businesses if we were really committed to doing that. 

Next, how do we enhance the flow of capital into Indian Country. 

I believe the EB–5 Program—this is a foreign investment program, 

I can expand more on later if you wish—should be made permanent. I believe we are creating a regional center through Onefire 

and the Creek Nation and our goal is to bring foreign investment 

into the Creek Nation’s borders, but this program is always a little 

concerning. Is it going to be continued? Is it going to, you know— 

is political pressure going to make it go away? I think it needs to 

be made much more permanent. 

I think tax incentives are critical. You know, the accelerated depreciation in Tulsa, it is absolutely critical. It lowers the tax burden on our business owners. 

New market tax credits to encourage people to invest in poor 

areas of the state, I think are absolutely critical. 

And then, finally, how do we get more Native Americans employed in great jobs? And so I would offer—definitely need to renew 

the Indian Employment Tax Credit. I would say that $20,000 

doesn’t buy you a whole lot these days, as wages have gone up. I 

would propose that the amount for that tax credit should go up 

7 

from $20,000, to $30,000 or $40,000. And then I’m very intrigued, 

I just learned about this Tribal Labor Sovereignty Act of 2015, 

where when you look at state and Federal governments, they determine their own labor standards, but tribes do not. Well, they’re 

sovereign governments as well and should be treated, in my opinion, the same way as our Federal and state governments. So, those 

would be my thoughts, Mr. Senator. 

The prepared statement of Mr. Kouplen follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SEAN KOUPLEN, CHAIRMAN/CEO, REGENT BANK; CHAIRMAN

OF THE BOARD, ONEFIRE HOLDING COMPANY

Keys to Economic Advancement for Native Americans 

1. Keys to investing: 

a. 5 C’s of credit: cashflow, credit, character, capacity, collateral 

b. Low risk, high return 

2. More training and outreach of existing programs 

3. Ways to enhance economic investment for Native Americans 

a. Lower investment risk through government guarantee programs like BIA 

i. Slow, minimal resources 

ii. Section 184 program for homes- 11,336 loans to date! 

b. More resources for BIA 

i. Higher guarantee percentage 

ii. Clearer ground rules 

iii. Lower equity requirement 

iv. Grant program for new businesses? 

c. Further development of Buy Indian programs 

i. Disadvantaged business rules with government contractors 

4. Increase the flow of capital into Indian Country 

a. Make EB–5 permanent—great source of foreign investment 

b. Tax incentives for investing in Indian Country—very poor areas of the Creek 

Nation need investment badly 

c. Accelerated depreciation—continue; saves millions of dollars 

d. New market tax credits—The NMTC Program provides tax credit incentives 

to investors for equity investments in certified Community Development Entities, which invest in low-income communities. The credit equals 39 percent of 

the investment paid out (5 percent in each of the first three years, then 6 percent in the final four years, for a total of 39 percent) over seven years (more 

accurately, six years and one day of the seventh year) 

e. Expand Buy Indian Act by adding transparency and accountability, and expand it to all Federal programs that work with Indian communities 

5. Ways to improve Native American employment 

a. Renew the Indian employment tax credit 

i. $20,000 is too low—increase it to $30–40,000 

b. Tribal labor sovereignty act of 2015—treat tribes as a sovereign government 

and let them set their own labor standards 

Senator LANKFORD. That’s good. Thanks, Mr. Kouplen. 

Mr. Narcomey. 

STATEMENT OF FRANK NARCOMEY, PRESIDENT, SOUTHWIND 

CONSTRUCTION SERVICES, LLC 

Mr. NARCOMEY. Thank you, Senator. 

My name is Frank Narcomey, I own Southwind Construction 

Services LLC, Edmond. And what I’d like to share today is—you 

know, as far as success, that’s a little bit hard for me to, you know, 

8 

tell you that, you know, I’m successful. And because there’s been 

too many people—too many things in my life, that if it wasn’t for 

the SBA, if it wasn’t for a mentor, if it wasn’t for someone, you 

know, giving me the courage to start a business, you know, I 

wouldn’t be here. So I’m really appreciative that I had the opportunity and—you know, a lot of people struggle. A lot of individuals 

struggle. A lot of Native Americans, you know, I see them struggle 

and, you know, how do you start? 

And my story is basically one that to me is almost a miracle 

that—I was listening, Sean, to you and I sat on the front porch, 

I had two young boys in diapers and I wanted to start a business. 

I was working for a good company but I was just at a dead-end 

spot. I was making, you know, $30,000 in 1983/1984, and my wife 

was working and, you know, I was 58 years old at this time and 

I made out this long drawn out plan of where I might be financially 

or where we would be financially at this time. And, you know, I 

had everything budgeted and it was really tough. It was tough. Our 

vehicles were going to have to last about 18 years, you know, and 

fortunately, that didn’t have to happen. 

But, what I did was—I had a friend and he knew that I had 

some management ability, but I had no capital. Cindy and I took 

$500 out of our checking account. We opened up a Post Office Box 

and I got a computer, and I bunked the two boys together in one 

bedroom and I took one bedroom and opened up a telephone line 

and just moonlighted. And I had been around the Oklahoma City 

area for, at that time, for about nine years, so I had made a lot 

of good contacts with subcontractors, suppliers, other GC’s, et 

cetera. And this friend of mine in the insurance business, he knew 

I didn’t have any money but he told me, just go out and get as 

many references that you can. 

So that’s what I did, and in the process of asking people and letting people know that, hey, I’m going to start a business, somebody 

told me about somebody and then that person got me hooked up 

with another person. And next thing you know, I’m studying the 

SBA rules, and back in the old days, it was the SDB Set-Aside— 

Small Disadvantage Business Set-Aside, where you actually self 

certify, so you’re not 8(a) certified, you’re self certified. And we 

went after some contracts on some military bases and this joint 

venture that we put together that chased some of these SDB SetAsides—I found someone that, you know, believed in me enough, 

that I knew long enough, that he provided the capital. I found another contractor that had the technical ability to write proposals, 

and then, basically, I was the management person on the ground. 

And I had never, ever, seen a military base in my life and we 

bid a contract. I started Southwind in October of 1991. In August 

of 1992, that’s when we got our first contract and we put together 

this proposal for a construction contract in Davis-Monthan Air 

Force Base, Tucson, Arizona. And I had never seen an Air Force 

base—I mean, I still to this day, am not sure exactly what all the 

stripes mean, but it’s just ‘‘yes, sir’’. And we got that contract and 

this contract—I got a call from the contracting officer at my house, 

Mr. Narcomey, we have selected you; however, you have been protested and I need you to get through this protest. But, you know, 

I was still working for a company and I had to spend time defendVerDate Mar 15 2010 11:52 Nov 03, 2015 Jkt 097352 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 S:\DOCS\97352.TXT JACK
9 

ing this protest and the money man behind me said, hey, I’ll just 

front you some living expenses, but you got to win this protest. And 

this was probably the only protest I’ve been through without an attorney, but I did it all by myself and got this. And it was a $20,000,000 contract at Davis-Monthan Air Force 

Base and it was unbelievable. And I was scared to death and this 

contracting officer, Imogene Britz—I basically told her who I was, 

and I told her, Imogene, I belong here. And I may not know exactly 

what I’m doing but if you’ll help me, I’ll be the best contractor 

you’ve ever had. And a couple of years later, she nominated us for 

small business contractor of—you know, small business contractor 

of the year, nationwide. We didn’t get it. But she and I and Cindy 

had an opportunity to go to Washington, D.C., but she told me she 

had never nominated somebody before. 

But I think the success that I’ve had is just—I’ve had to go to 

Dottie. I’ve known Dottie for a long time. I’ve had to go to her people and I’ve had to, you know, ask for help. I’ve had to—if it wasn’t 

for my government counterparts—contracting officers and tell 

them, you know, I’m afraid, I’m scared, I’m—hey, I’ve got an issue 

that I need help on. There has just been—everybody has been willing to help me and I think there’s so many folks like that on the 

government side that—individuals like me that are afraid to start, 

it can happen, you know. It can happen. 

And when we graduated from the 8(a) Program in 2007, again, 

I’m scared. You know, what are we going to do? I’ve put a lot of 

the eggs in that basket. 

Well, fortunately, there has been small business set-asides that 

are small business. They may not necessarily be 8(a), but they’re 

for small business entities. So we have been able to stay afloat, if 

you will, in the small business sector and we’ve grown enough that 

we’ve done some good projects for larger private companies like 

Halliburton. But, I’m conservative and so I try to stay, you know, 

within a realm of what we can definitely take care of and manage 

well. 

My mentors have always told me, you can have too much, and 

that would be worst than not having enough. 

So, at the moment we’re struggling—the crystal ball is, I can’t 

get the government off high center on some—you know, getting 

through some designs or there’s some issues, but I know it’ll come. 

And I’m just glad to participate and that’s why I feel my destiny 

is to give back to someone that I met that I can probably help and 

guide, direct, mentor, and give them a start. Thank you. 

The prepared statement of Mr. Narcomey follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF FRANK NARCOMEY, PRESIDENT, SOUTHWIND

CONSTRUCTION SERVICES, LLC 

Southwind Construction Company, Inc.—an SBA Section 8(a) Success Story 

This is the story of how the Small Business Administration and the 8(a) program 

changed my life and allowed me to change the lives of others. 

Early Years 

My father, ‘‘Redman’’, was full blood and a Golden Gloves boxer. My white mother 

was the daughter of a strict Methodist preacher. Born premature at Pawnee Indian 

Hospital, I began life in 1957 as the first born of two 19 year old ‘‘kids’’ from completely different backgrounds. One perhaps, soothing the effects of the ‘‘Trail of 

Tears’’ with alcohol and the other, preaching the ‘‘word’’ while quietly condemning 

10 

the marriage to an ‘‘Indian’’. Alcohol and its complete obliteration of anything 

worthwhile eventually ended the marriage. When I was 13 years old, my father pronounced me ‘‘man of the house’’ and gave me the authority and responsibility of taking care of my mother and two younger brothers. This would later cause me enormous emotional problems. 

Hard Times 

We never had any money to start with and that certainly was the case after the 

divorce. As the oldest of three boys (‘‘and man of the house’’), I helped my mother 

make ends meet by doing odd jobs after school and on weekends. I felt shame in 

having to survive on food stamps and hide from my friends that I was the janitor 

at the local theater hangout. Although I was unaware of it at the time, being both 

an adolescent and surrogate ‘‘man of the house’’ created emotional conflict. Anger, 

knocking holes in walls, and fighting became my primary means of dealing with 

these emotions and in particular, when it came to my mother and brothers. Fortunately, sports and compassionate coaches helped motivate me from straying too far 

off course. I graduated from Edmond Memorial High School in 1975. 

Hope For A Better Life 

My hope was that a college education would provide me the means of getting out 

of poverty. The downside: no money, no car. The upside: I could qualify for a low 

income BEOG grant, BIA grant, and low interest student loan; I could work parttime and of course ‘‘bum’’ a ride for a while. Since I had become quite ‘‘technically’’ 

proficient in repairing holes in drywall, it’s not surprising that I chose to pursue 

a degree in Construction Management. With the ‘‘Seminole’’ will to survive, I never 

lost sight of my hope and eventually graduated from Oklahoma State University in 

1980 with a Bachelor of Science in Engineering Technology, Construction Management degree. 

Starting A Career 

Upon graduation I began work with a large construction firm, J.W. Bateson Company in Dallas, Texas. I worked in the Dallas estimating department for about a 

year and a half and was subsequently assigned to the OKC VA Hospital project, a 

$33 million three year project in Oklahoma City. After completion of the VA project, 

I decided to stay in Oklahoma and found work with a small construction firm, Timberlake Construction Company, in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. 

Alcoholism 

Obvious (to others anyway) signs of a drinking problem were meshed throughout 

my college days and early working career. Blackouts were common. I thought firsthand knowledge of seeing Redman drink himself to death would surely be enough 

to save me from this insidious disease. I was wrong. Without my knowledge or consent, somewhere along the way I had succumbed to alcoholism... terror, bewilderment, frustration, despair. With the help of a mentor and the Power of a ‘‘Spirit 

of the Universe’’, my journey of sobriety and the unravelling of deep emotional 

wounds began in August of 1987. Sobriety brought healing and courage. With courage, the faint idea of starting a business would eventually became a reality. 

Southwind Construction Company, Inc. 

As its sole owner and shareholder, I incorporated Southwind in October of 1991. 

Still employed with Timberlake, I made a bedroom of our small house into an office 

and worked late nights, early mornings, and weekends reading the SBA’s regulations concerning SDB (Small and Disadvantaged Business) programs, making contacts, etc. ‘‘Good ideas’’ can only go so far. Without capital or experience, most of 

my efforts were dead ends. Eventually however, I did find the right people willing 

to help and, with the help of the SBA, formulated a Joint Venture to provide the 

capital, bonding and experience necessary to complement my management abilities. 

The Joint Venture successfully completed several multi-year IDIQ JOC and SABER 

type contracts, which provided Southwind the foundation it needed to take the next 

step—the SBA’s Section 8(a) program. 

The 8(A) Program 

I believe Southwind to be the perfect candidate for which the 8(a) program was 

designed. Definitely a ‘‘disadvantaged individual’’ (half-breed, alcoholic) with a potential for success... but lacking the resources and contracts necessary to foster 

growth. Southwind entered the program in May 1997 and graduated in May 2006. 

During this time period, Southwind’s annual revenues increased from an average 

of $2.5 million a year to a sustained average of $25 million a year. Our employee 

numbers went from five to thirty five. The 8(a) program fostered not only business 

11 

growth but my own personal growth as well. I learned from my SBA and Government counterparts that success isn’t necessarily measured by revenues; but rather 

accountability, honesty, integrity, mutual respect and performance of the work. I’m 

forever grateful to have participated in SBA’s 8(a) Business Development Program. 

It allowed me opportunities I never dreamed possible. 

Southwind Construction Services, LLC. 

Prior to graduating the 8(a) program, my SBA and Government counterparts, as 

well as fellow business associates, encouraged me to create a ‘‘continuation’’ plan. 

Obviously, without the 8(a) program, we would now be in a competitive market environment on a full-time basis. And from a personal standpoint, 15 years as the sole 

owner and decision maker was starting to wear on me. These and other factors led 

to the creation of Southwind Construction Services, LLC in May of 2007. As Managing Member and majority owner of Southwind Construction Services LLC, I was 

able to: utilize past performance experience; reward two key employees an ownership stake for their dedication and loyalty; and provide better management oversight and decisionmaking. Last but not least, it has allowed me the opportunity to 

give back to the 8(a) program by working with struggling or up and coming 8(a) 

firms that might need a helping hand. To date, Southwind Construction Services 

maintains annual revenues of $25 million, employs thirty five people, and has 

helped a number of both individual and tribally owned 8(a) companies develop their 

businesses. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. Thanks, Mr. Narcomey. 

Mr. Ruttman. 

STATEMENT OF DENNIS RUTTMAN, CEO/SUPERINTENDENT, 

CADDO KIOWA TECHNOLOGY CENTER 

Mr. RUTTMAN. Thank you, Senator. Glad to be here today. 

In a sense, I represent 29 technology centers here in Oklahoma, 

because what we do, we do statewide. Our district represents 1,954 

square miles of Southwest Oklahoma. It was founded in 1968 and 

the goal then was the same goal we have now, to help our students 

in our area of the state prosper. 

About three years ago, my Board one night gave us permission 

to start an economic development regional partnership and Mr. 

Southard will certainly address that a lot more for us. At the time, 

the question was why are we doing that? 

Well, first off, we have partners and Clark will talk about those 

as well. But the fact is you kind of have to take charge of your own 

destiny once in a while and I have a totally self-serving motivation. 

If we grow our economy in Southwest Oklahoma that means my 

school’s budget grows. Well, we like that. It helps us do more 

things and provide more services. The fact of the matter is our 

economy is doing better all the time. We’re very pleased with a lot 

of things that go on, but we have to have good quality jobs. 

And along time ago, companies used to decide where they were 

going to build a facility at and people would move to go to that facility. Workforce has become such a huge issue for companies now, 

that they move where the workforce is. We feel like Caddo County, 

in this region, we have some really, really good students that our 

ascending schools have trained and send us. They send us very 

educated kids. And companies look at that, what do you have for 

a workforce? What’s actually available? 

If you live in Western Oklahoma, at least until the last six 

months, workforce is a pretty big deal. They had trouble hiring 

people and the money just kept going up. So, we continue to look 

at ways to create more jobs. 

12 

I’m going to real quickly run through some of the services we 

provide. And I know this is in the record but I think it’s important 

to understand that along with economic development, we have a 

business development center. Shaun Frye (phonetic) is here, she 

heads that up for us. And we help people do a lot of things. There’s 

an incubator in there. We actually have three tribal-owned businesses in there right now. We also house the regional economic development partnership in there as well. 

Business incubator sounds like a pretty silly way of—my 

grandkids have asked me, well, what are they hatching there? 

Well, we’re hatching businesses. Folks have a dream, they have an 

idea. They sometimes don’t have a lot of capital. They don’t have 

a lot of expertise. We help them grow that business. We have a 

person that helps them write their business plans. We help them 

with marketing. We help them with their bookkeeping, everything 

they need to grow that company. And are all of them successful? 

No. Nationally, you guys know the rate is horrible for first, second, 

or third year business failures. Ours do a little better than that, 

so we’re pretty proud of that. 

We do everything from customize training. In fact, Unami, one 

of those companies, when they got ready to start up, they had to 

have not only safety training but training in how to operate very 

specific equipment for the product they make. We geared up and 

did that in a very short time. We helped them with a job fair. Our 

staff have done a lot of things. 

And I guess the other thing I would say is we prepare students 

to—not only that are college bound through our pre-engineering 

and bio-med programs—in fact, we have a proud grandfather sitting back there of one of our pre-engineering students. They do 

great, but we also prepare them for the workforce. That means job 

interviews, resume writing, soft skills about workplace etiquette, 

all those things that they really need to be successful. Along with 

that, we add about 400 CDL drivers—truck drivers to the workforce every year down here, at an average of $35,000 to $70,000 a 

piece, you can do the math, for about a three week investment of 

time, we’re adding a lot of people. 

So, I’ll kind of finish off by saying this, we have, gosh, about 86 

percent of the students that start with us, complete. They graduate. And 89 percent of those move straight into jobs that we’ve 

helped them get or we’ve trained them to get. The only disconnect 

I see is that sometimes we send them out of there with a good job 

and a lot of things to do, but, frankly, sometimes they don’t have 

the support on the other end—when they get home, when they go 

back to the community—to stay engaged. And we get—we help 

them get that job and they are gung-ho, but the week spot is sometimes we kind of let them fall off the face of the earth after they 

go out the door. I guess that’s where I’d say I would love to see a 

way to have some more interaction between tribes and us. And we 

do have a lot of interaction with tribes right now, but maybe a way 

to develop that support network further. So, I’ll quit there. 

The prepared statement of Mr. Ruttman follows:] 

13 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DENNIS RUTTMAN, CEO/SUPERINTENDENT, CADDO KIOWA

TECHNOLOGY CENTER

Honorable Senator Lankford, 

I am honored to have the opportunity to address the United States Senate Indian 

Affairs Committee in this field hearing session today. I am a native Oklahoman and 

have lived here nearly my entire life. 

Experience and Credentials 

I currently serve as Superintendent/CEO of Caddo Kiowa Technology Center 

(CKTC) in Fort Cobb, Oklahoma. CKTC was the second of 29 Vocational schools created in Oklahoma. Our district encompasses 1954 square miles here in Southwest 

Oklahoma and we partner with 13 sending schools within our district one of those 

being Riverside Indian School in Anadarko. We also work directly with 13 tribes in 

our area. I serve on the Washita Valley Regional Partnership board and am a past 

trustee of the Ponca City Development Authority board. I have led several groups 

over the course of my career and am a graduate of the University of Oklahoma Economic Development Institute. 

Education and Workforce Development Observations 

CKTC and our partner schools all strive to help our students find a path to a better life. Many of our students have difficult situations they must work around in 

order to find that path. Three years ago our board made the decision to help us start 

a regional Economic Development Partnership which Mr. Southard will address. 

The rationale for that was to try and create quality jobs for the great, skilled students we help produce. We are well on our way to helping that dream become reality. 

At CKTC our fulltime students have training opportunities in the following areas: 

Construction Technology 

Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning 

Digital Imaging and Printing Technology 

Business Management and Administration 

Business Financial Management 

Health Careers 

Licensed Practical Nursing (Adult Students Only) 

Occupational Therapy Assistant (Adult Students Only) 

Physical Therapist Assistant (Adult Students Only) 

Culinary Arts 

Early Care and Education 

Cosmetology 

Web and Digital Communications 

Welding 

Pre-Engineering (High School Students Only) 

Biomedical Sciences (High School Students Only) 

Collision Repair 

Automotive Service Technology 

Diesel Service Technology 

Our Business and Industry Services division provides a number of services to our 

taxpayers as well. 

Volunteer Firefighter Training—Volunteer Firefighter Training has been available 

at no cost because of a grant made available thru the Oklahoma Legislature. CKTC 

has 14 Volunteer Fire Departments within its district. 

Healthcare Training—The health care industry is in desperate need of a qualified 

workforce with specifically aimed skills at enhancing and increasing the retention 

for workers in nursing homes and skilled nursing facilities. In the area of CNA, 

CMA, LPN and Home Health. CKTC has trained professionals in these areas with 

short term training and full time training. 

Short Term Adult and Career Development Training—CKTC brings professional 

instructors and speakers to their businesses as well as sending employees to the 

campus. Some of the topic areas include specific items such as time management, 

professional etiquette training to specific industry training. Cooking classes have 

been customized for students of the Riverside Indian School, Computer training, 

basic website classes and photography are available and again, this type of training 

is not limited to the borders of the campus but can be taught in the district. 

Safety Training—is requested by many Business and Industry clients to stay 

OSHA compliant. Safety topic training areas include but not limited to consist of 

basic safety, fork lift safety and operation, Fire safety, lock out tag out, OSHA trainVerDate Mar 15 2010 11:52 Nov 03, 2015 Jkt 097352 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 S:\DOCS\97352.TXT JACK
14 

ing and CPR. Many of our tribes utilize this service because of the child care facilities they run. 

Business and Entrepreneurial Services and Caddo Kiowa Business Development 

Center—BES offers confidential counseling and one on one assistance to businesses 

within the district. The assistance consists but is not limited to helping with business plan development, funding sources, income tax, marketing, cash flow analysis 

and business sales projections. 

Oklahoma Bid Assistance Network (OBAN)—provides marketing and technical assistance to Oklahoma businesses interested in selling products and services to federal, state, local and tribal governments. CKTC is privileged to house on campus 

one OBAN coordinator which has helped numerous businesses and Native American 

Tribes within the district with government contracts. Specific tribes include the 

Delaware Nation and the Wichita Tribe of Oklahoma. 

Truck Driver Training—Truck Driver Training is offered on the campus of CKTC. 

This short term program area is designed to train individuals to become professional 

truck drivers. Within this program area is the bus driver training program that has 

been beneficial to many of our partner schools including Riverside Indian School located in Anadarko Oklahoma. 

Business Incubator—Caddo Kiowa Business Development Center (CKBDC) is the 

perfect opportunity for small multi use companies. The CKBDC Business Incubator 

gives entrepreneurs and start up business owners the skills and guidance they need 

to succeed. Some of the benefits to being a tenant in the business incubator include 

graduated rent, one on one coaching, access to funding sources and business and 

technical support services from the entire BIS staff. Currently the CKBDC Business 

Incubator houses four businesses or entities. The Delaware Nation Economic Development Authority, Unami Lighting Company, Create IT, and Washita Valley Regional Partnership. Three of the four business are Native American owned and operated. 

Customized training—When a company is need of upgrading its workforce Caddo 

Kiowa Technology Center is where they turn. The technology center is capable of 

providing training with a short turnaround time. Many industries require specialized training that is specific to their industry and career tech is able to provide it. 

Flexibility is the key to meeting the needs of the client. Caddo Kiowa Technology 

Center has employees on staff that can do safety analysis of a business and recommend a solution to safety problems with specialized training. CKTC also offers 

pre-employment training for existing companies or companies moving into the area. 

Job Fairs—CKTC provides job fair services to expanding and new companies 

needing to fill the workforce requirement. CKTC helps potential employees with resume’ development, interview skills and general employability skills. 

Ag Business Management—We provide expertise in best farming practices as well 

as the financial side of the agriculture industry. 

As you can see we try to help people and companies to be successful in Southwest 

Oklahoma. 

Observations and Recommendations 

We are extremely proud of our students. That said, sometimes when students 

complete their studies here at CKTC they return to the same environment they left. 

86 percent of our students complete their training at CKTC and 89 percent of those 

get jobs in the area they trained for. I believe that with stronger support after they 

leave us we can continue to help reverse the trend of not feeling the need to work. 

One recommendation would be to establish Placement/Job Retention Coordinators 

at the tribal level. People which could work directly with us, our students and businesses, perhaps even office at our facility to work with our tribal students and businesses in the area. It’s a small step which could have a big impact. The other recommendation I would have is to work to get more push from the tribal side to encourage their members to get an education and a job so they can continue to build 

on the image of being a highly sought after workforce. 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. 

We are changing the way we do things here at CKTC. Education is alive and well 

here in Southwest Oklahoma. I believe we are headed in the right direction and am 

excited to see what the future brings. 

Attachment 

Workforce and Education Information 

Caddo County Demographics: 

• District Population 34,214 according to 2010 Census 

15 

• Caddo County ranks among the poorest counties in Oklahoma (Kids Count Fact 

Book) 

—21 percent Poverty Rate (Office of Educational & Accountability Profiles 2013) 

—Average Household Income $48,346 

• Caddo County unemployment rate is 9.9 percent of reported unemployment (Office of Educational & Accountability Profiles 2013) 

• 32.4 percent Single parent families (Office of Educational & Accountability Profiles 2013) 

• 13.5 percent College Graduates in county (Office of Educational & Accountability Profiles 2013) 

• 72 percent Free or Reduced Lunch (Office of Educational & Accountability Profiles 2013) 

• High School Graduates going to college 40.1 percent (Office of Educational & 

Accountability Profiles 2013) 

• Public College Remediation Rate for Caddo County 43.5 percent (Office of Educational & Accountability Profiles 2013) 

• High School Participation Rate in Career Tech Program (Tech Center & High 

School) 51.6 percent (Office of Educational & Accountability Profiles 2013) 

• Caddo County dropout rate 15% 

• Caddo County End of Instruction (EOI) Performance 65% 

• 83 percent of full-time students received grant or scholarship from the federal 

or state government 

—Average amount of grant or scholarship aid from federal or state government 

was $2,903 

• Caddo Kiowa Technology Center District Demographics 

—Caucasian 38% 

—African American 4% 

—American Indian 34% 

—Two or more races 22% 

—Female Students 57% 

—Economically Disadvantaged Full Time Secondary Students 26.6% 

• Caddo Kiowa Technology Center Success Measures (Oklahoma Department of 

Career Tech Follow Up Data) 

—Retention & Completion 86% 

—Related Placement 89% 

—Career Readiness Certifications 97% 

—National & State Certification/Licensure 36% 

Tribal Involvement: 

• CKTC served 13 different tribes in 2014/2015 school year 

• CKTC involves local tribes in Business Education Councils & in Job Interview 

Events on campus 

• Bureau of Indian Affairs 

—Resource for Tuition & Books to CKTC for Tribal Members 

—Educational Stipend to Tribal Members for attending school 

• Bureau of Indian Education 

—Pay for Books & Tuition or any balances not paid by other assistance 

• Early Care & Education 

—Agreement with CKTC Early Care program to provide Head Start Services 

to 3 & 4 year old children enrolled in the program 

*The Kiowa Tribe pays for one full time employee with benefits 

—Tribal Block grant to pay for child care attendance charges 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. Thank you. 

Ms. Overal. 

STATEMENT OF DOTTIE OVERAL, DISTRICT DIRECTOR, 

OKLAHOMA DISTRICT OFFICE, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS 

ADMINISTRATION 

Ms. OVERAL. Thank you. Good afternoon, Senator. Thank you for 

this opportunity and I bring you greetings from our administrator, 

Maria Contreras-Sweet and she sends her regards. 

SBA’s mission is to strengthen the nation’s economy by establishing the vitality of small businesses in our country. 

16 

Underpinning all of our efforts is the notion of ‘‘inclusive entrepreneurship’’. That means making our programs available to all 

people, regardless of age, race, gender, or geographic location. 

My testimony today will focus on the work, in the Oklahoma Native American community through our—with our 7(a) Lending Program, our 8(a) Business Development Program, and the HubZone 

Program. 

The 7(a) Lending Program is the SBA’s primary lending program. And as Sean so very eloquently expressed, these loans do not 

come directly from the SBA. They’re made by a local lender and the 

SBA guarantees them. This allows the bank to take a greater risk 

and in most cases, provide a longer payback period for the small 

business owner. Over the past five years, SBA guaranteed over 

$68.8 million in loans to Oklahoma Native Americans, like Sherrie 

Schatz of Schatz Publishing in Blackwell, Oklahoma; and Carolyn 

Bahner, owner of Expanded Solutions in Oklahoma City. 

The 8(a) Business Development Program is a nine-year program, 

established to assist eligible socially and economically disadvantaged individuals to develop and grow their businesses. Like Frank 

shared with you today; and like Al Alfaro, of He and I Construction 

in Lawton, Oklahoma; these firms were able to access government 

contracts. Currently, the SBA Oklahoma portfolio of 8(a) firms, 

there are 75 of them; 35 are tribally-owned firms and 25 are Native 

American-owned firms. So, a good portion of our portfolio goes to 

the Native community. 

On another note, two-thirds of our state is now a designated 

HubZone. When I first arrived in Oklahoma, SBA did not recognize 

Indian lands as being eligible for the HubZone Program. So we 

fought very hard to get that designation and I’m happy to say it’s 

been very successful. Right now, I’m working with the Oklahoma 

Bid Assistance Centers and the SBA Office of HubZones to create 

a pilot program where we’ll be able to provide hands-on training 

to individuals who want to get into the HubZone Program. Because 

sometimes the online application is daunting to people. So this is 

an effort we’re working on and hopefully we’re going to roll that 

out, probably by August the 1st this year. We’re very excited about 

that. 

As you’re aware, the Choctaw Nation received a Promise Zone 

designation for the 11 counties in Southeastern Oklahoma. And 

right now, we have two major events for the Promise Zone. One 

will be a Native focused 8(a) application training in McAlester, and 

the second will be a lender matchmaking event in Durant, where 

we bring lenders to the businesses. So an individual can sign up 

to participate in this event and meet five or six lenders in one 

morning and give a small pitch to them and then hopefully, one of 

the lenders will be interested in making them a loan. We’ll also 

have individuals there who can provide some guidance, either before the event or after, to help them with that business plan. 

Our Office of Native American Affairs is led by Chris James and 

he’s been in that position since 2011. And for most of the people 

in the audience, Chris is no stranger to Oklahoma. He’s been here 

many times. And one of the things we have coming up, in which 

Oklahoma will be a part of, is something called hack-a-thon. And 

it’s a program to teach tribal youth how to employee the kinds of 

17 

business problem-solving skills that are used in places like the Silicon Valley. We’re very excited about that coming to Oklahoma. 

Another area that I’d like to share with you is our LINC Program, which stands for Linking Information and Networks to Access Capital. In this program, an individual can go into the Internet and post some information about what they’re looking for. And 

all of the lenders who are signed up for this program will receive 

this information and they can contact the individual, but we piloted 

that program in the American Indian and Native American entrepreneurial groups. So that was the test market for this program. 

We thought it would be very successful and we just unrolled that. 

And I don’t know, Sean, if you’re participating in that, but we’ll see 

how it works. 

The Office of Innovation is currently working to recruit a small 

business investment company, a venture capital fund to fund businesses in Indian Country. So, I’ll keep you posted on that, we don’t 

know how that’s going to go but it sounds very promising. 

We at SBA are very committed to innovations that will allow us 

to serve and to assist the Native American business owners in 

Oklahoma and across America. And we thank you for the opportunity to provide this testimony and I welcome your comments and 

questions. 

The prepared statement of Ms. Overal follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DOTTIE OVERAL, DISTRICT DIRECTOR, OKLAHOMA DISTRICT

OFFICE, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

Good morning Senator Lankford. SBA Administrator Contreras-Sweet sends her 

regards and regrets that she could not attend today’s hearing. 

I am Dottie Overal, and I serve as District Director of the U.S. Small Business 

Administration’s Oklahoma District Office. 

As you know, SBA’s mission is to strengthen the nation’s economy by enabling 

the establishment and vitality of small businesses. Underpinning all of our efforts 

is the notion of ‘‘inclusive entrepreneurship.’’ By this I mean that we work to ensure 

that SBA products and services are available to small business owners regardless 

of age, race, gender, geography or socio-economic status. 

My testimony today will focus on our work in the Oklahoma Native American 

Community through our 7(a) lending, 8a business development, and HUBZone programs. 

The 7a Loan program is the SBA’s primary business loan program. These loans 

do not come directly from the Agency but rather from banks and other participant 

lenders. The SBA guaranty reduces the lender’s risk. Over the past five years, SBA 

guaranteed over $68.8 million in loans to Oklahoma Native American firms like 

Sherrie Schatz of Schatz Publishing in Blackwell and Carolyn Bahner owner of Expanded Solutions in Oklahoma City. 

The 8a Business Development program is a nine-year program established to assist eligible socially and economically disadvantages individuals to develop and grow 

their businesses. Like Al Alfaro of He and I Construction in Lawton, OK, a successful program graduate, these firms are considered small disadvantaged business concerns for the purpose of federal contracts. Currently the Oklahoma 8(a) portfolio of 

75 firms consists of 35 tribally owned firms and 25 Native American owned firms. 

On another note, approximately 2⁄3 of our State is in a designated HubZone based 

on Indian Lands. This designation gives small businesses located in a HubZone access to federal set-aside contracts and sole source contracts, as well as a price evaluation preference. We are currently working with the Oklahoma Bid Assistance 

Centers, located throughout the State, to provide hands on assistance to firms wanting to get into this program. 

As you are aware, Choctaw Nation has received a Promise Zone designation and 

SBA is currently working with tribal leadership to bring programs and focused 

training to the 11 county designated area. Over the next three months we hold a 

lender matchmaking event in Durant and a Native focused 8(a) application training 

in McAllister. 

18 

Our Office of Native American Affairs has been led by Chris James since 2011. 

As part of the White House’s Native American Generation Indigenous initiative, 

SBA will host a ‘‘hack-a-thon’’ event in California later this year with plans to extend to other regions including Oklahoma and surrounding areas. We’re going to 

teach tribal youth how to employ the kinds of business problem-solving skills being 

used in places like Silicon Valley. 

In addition to the hack-a-thon, the SBA held a roundtable event tailored specifically for young Native women entrepreneurs in Oklahoma this past March. 

We have also issued LINC, which stands for Leveraging Information and Networks to Access Capital. LINC can expand borrowing options beyond your local 

bank. With LINC, a small business owner can go to sba.gov and fill out a simple 

online form in minutes. The form is then sent to lenders with a regional, statewide, 

or even national reach. Within 48 hours, the applicant is either contacted by a lender to meet or discuss their application. Or else, if no banks respond, SBA will direct 

the entrepreneur to a free local business adviser for loan consulting. We’ve rolled 

out LINC to our microlenders and nonprofit lenders already. American Indian and 

Alaskan Native entrepreneurs were the very first group we brought in to test this 

new technology prior to the rollout. That’s because we think this online service will 

be especially beneficial to those who face geographic barriers in accessing capital. 

Later this spring, we’ll take an even bolder step toward modernization when we 

roll out SBA. One which is the total automation of our loan application. One of the 

prevailing criticisms of the SBA is that it’s too cumbersome, time-consuming and expensive to apply for a loan with us. SBA One will mean the end of fax machines 

and paper forms in our application process. Instead relevant loan documents will 

auto-populate. The forms can then be filled out online using an intuitive interface— 

and then filed using digital signatures. It will substantially cut the time and cost 

of applying for SBA capital. 

In terms of counseling, we’re also going to be pioneering another innovation this 

year in Indian country. In 2015, we’ll be bringing growth accelerators to reservations and tribal communities. Last year, the SBA funded 50 growth accelerators 

across the country. These are basically business incubators that help startups quickly launch, scale up and turn a profit. Accelerators provide a physical infrastructure 

where budding entrepreneurs can work and plan. They offer mentoring, networking, 

business-plan assistance, and possibly even access to investment capital. Our Office 

of Innovation is currently working to recruit an SBIC venture capital fund in Indian 

Country that would invest in the most promising, high-growth tribal businesses. 

Growth accelerators are usually found in big cities, but our idea was to export the 

Silicon Valley support structure to underserved communities. This year, the SBA 

will be funding our first growth accelerators in Native American communities nationwide. Competition winners will receive $50,000 to pay for things like rent, office 

equipment, wifi connections, or staff expenses. We think this can be a great new 

way to increase the numbers of successful startups in Native American communities. 

We are committed to innovations that will allow us to serve and assist Native 

American-owned business in Oklahoma and across America. 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide this testimony, and I welcome your comments and questions. 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you. 

Colonel Southard. 

STATEMENT OF CLARK SOUTHARD, LIEUTENANT COLONEL 

(U.S. ARMY, RET.); EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WASHITA VALLEY 

REGIONAL PARTNERSHIP; CHAIRMAN, OKLAHOMA 

SOUTHWEST ALLIANCE; AND VICE CHAIRMAN, DELAWARE 

NATION ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY 

Mr. SOUTHARD. Senator Lankford, esteemed colleagues, and ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the opportunity to come here 

today to talk about economic development. As a economic developer, this is heaven, believe it or not. We get to talk about things 

that are important to what I do for a living and what we’d like to 

see in terms of prosperity in Oklahoma, specifically, since—I’ll also 

be a little selfish here and Senator, I think you’ll back me on that 

one. We’d like to see our state grow and needless to say, I’m based 

19 

out of Southwest Oklahoma and this is my territory, also as a Native Oklahoman and a Native American as well. 

And what I did—we have a testimony requirement to put it on 

paper and it was out in the hall and I listed a bunch of definitions. 

And I’m not going to sit here and bore everyone with definitions 

on what defines economic success and things of that nature, but 

I’ve got a couple of one-liners I like to use. But they are in the testimony for the record, because there is a requirement to have an 

understanding of what we’re talking about when we talk economic 

prosperity in Indian Country as a whole. 

Economic success, by itself is a term, is essentially financial independence and you can take that in the business world, you can 

take that in the family world. If you are financially independent, 

you’re now having economic success. 

Economic development is the production of wealth and/or the 

growth of ones income inside of a business family organization region. And there are six principle functions or pieces to economic development as a model. And you really can’t escape those in any 

way, shape, or form. The baseline piece of economic development 

is always going to be leadership development, workforce development, and community capacity and development. Those three 

things you can define as what makes the engine turn. Those are 

the operating pieces at the baseline you have to have in order to 

do anything; any kind of business, any kind of growth. You have 

to have those things in place. 

An example with community capacity development, if you don’t 

have a building to have your business in, you’re behind the power 

curve if you want to have a business there. 

Workforce is self-explanatory. Had a great opportunity just earlier today to meet with the Secretary of the Interior. One of their 

focuses was on youth in our area—the disadvantaged youth, specifically. And that is something, we, especially in Caddo County 

need to focus on very hard, is getting our kids trained and ready. 

And we heard from Superintendent Hackney (phonetic), a wonderful presentation on how we struggle in rural Oklahoma to get 

that done. It seems like everybody is piling on, but we produce fine 

young Americans, there’s no doubt about it. It’s always in the economic development world, urban versus rural. Rural, we’re always 

behind because we don’t have the numbers of people. We don’t have 

the resources at hand, so we struggle a little harder, but by golly, 

we can do it. That’s the way I see it. 

And then you have the production tier in economic development 

and that is entrepreneurial development, which the SBA and banks 

help start up. And we’re doing that in a business incubator at 

Caddo/Kiowa Technology Center, where you start businesses or you 

grow them, as some folks talk about germinating businesses or 

seed planting. 

The other is business retention and expansion, 85 percent of 

growth, economically, comes from businesses that are already in 

place. This is not something that I made up; this is the standard 

statistic you’ll read, 85 percent. So you want to keep your businesses at home and if you have a business here, you want to help 

them grow if they want to grow. Because that’s where your primary production is going to be. Then the top pinnacle item in ecoVerDate Mar 15 2010 11:52 Nov 03, 2015 Jkt 097352 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 S:\DOCS\97352.TXT JACK
20 

nomic development is business and industry recruitment. And 

quite honestly, in Caddo County, we’re not going to lure MercedesBenz to put up a car factory at this side of town. It’s just not going 

to happen here in Anadarko. But you might be surprised what we 

can lure in. 

But you have to have those other elements in place before you 

can go there. You have to walk before you can run. It’s real 

straightforward and real simple. And do to the constraints on time, 

because I could do this all day long—again, this is my cup of tea— 

I’ve just gone straight to some recommendations, it’s in my testimony. And these are Clark Southard recommendations. And clearly, when you’re working with sovereign nations, they will make up 

their own minds as to how they proceed. But I look at it—and in 

fact, the statistic is, there’s 566 federally recognized tribes in the 

United States. There’s 39 in Oklahoma; there’s 9 in Caddo County. 

And so, when you look at the different kinds of tribal structures 

the sovereign nations have, it makes it very complex to work with. 

And when you’re sitting in an office like ours, where you’re dealing 

with a regional concept of pulling everybody together, that is enormously difficult. I’ll just tell you, it’s hard to do. But there are certain things that I’ve observed through my time in this business, 

that are just general models. And I’m going to throw them out 

there for discussion if you’d like—or my opinion. 

When you look at tribal businesses, for them to be successful, if 

it is a sovereign nation’s business, you have to create in the tribal 

structure an economic development arm that is separate from the 

tribal political structure. And I’ll use the example of the United 

States government. 

Senator, no harm here. This is just the way it works. 

Business is better in the lane of business. Government does a 

great job running government. And so you really can’t expect the 

government to run businesses successfully, that needs to be in the 

hands of business. 

Same thing for sovereign nations. Your tribal structure, political 

and elected officials, that’s a great structure. It has to be there for 

its needs and purposes, but you need to have an isolated arm within your tribal structure for economic development, so that it is sheltered from political change and whim. Because that’s the thing that 

you see fail first in businesses in Indian Country. There are some 

tribes that have done that successfully; there are many more that 

have not. That’s observation number one. So the recommendation 

is create that buffer. And this one, of course, as—as a Comanche, 

we have—our family had an original land allotment and I know 

how trust land works and sovereign land works, et cetera. But 

trust land by itself is a dual-edge sword. That land is there to essentially avoid taxes, from a business perspective only. Of course, 

there’s sovereign nation things and stuff that is important to 

tribes. But tax avoidance creates another business dilemma when 

you’re trying to lure in other businesses or banks. 

As an example, if you go to Montana or you go out to Arizona, 

where you have the large reservations, you don’t see a lot of institutionalized corporation businesses inside of those reservation 

properties, because they have no legal recourse there. They cannot 

go to court and fight for themselves as a business; and the same 

21 

thing holds true in land that’s put into trust that wasn’t in trust. 

It was fee simple land before in this area. If you put land into 

trust, you’re going to have a hard time getting loans from banks 

and luring businesses in to actually do things, because the game 

has changed. They’re no longer—the businesses or the commercial 

side is no longer able to take things to court. If you have it as fee 

simple land, that’s—everybody—just like business happens in the 

rest of the world, so it’s a fair playing field or battlefield. 

Another piece that’s out there about start-up businesses—and 

this is one that I just—I’m always running into. 

The first rule of business is to have a business plan that is solid. 

If you don’t have a business plan in place, you’re destined to fail. 

If you start your business without a business plan, you’ve gone 

about it the wrong way. 

The second thing is to have your financials in order. And if 

you’re—again, sometimes when you work with tribal entities, those 

financials are muddled up with tribal monies. Again, you go back 

to the lender, the lender is very confused about what you’re doing, 

where the money sits, who’s responsible for it. So they want to 

have that separation in place. So, business plan, financials. 

And then the third item that’s always there, if you’re going to 

have something that requires a workforce, you need to make sure 

you have a streamline for that workforce to come to your place of 

business to conduct work. If you don’t have that workforce in 

place—again, that’s why Mercedes is not coming here to build cars, 

because we don’t have any engineers here. But those three things 

have to be in place. 

And then just a piece of advice—and this goes just across the 

board—whenever you’re starting business or you’re trying to expand your business, you want to capitalize on all the resources that 

are made available to you. My colleagues here—you’re hitting it out 

of the ball park. If we could all sit down and help any one single 

business, I think we’d do a great job, because there’s a lot of resources here. But it’s amazing, sometimes folks just don’t ask and 

so, you have to have that in place. 

And then, the final bullet on that one is if you don’t have those 

things in place, don’t try to start a business. You’re just going to 

lose money. It’ll be an outward flow of cash. 

And here’s the one that’s going to be most contentious, especially 

in the area of Southwest Oklahoma. When you look at the model 

in the state of Oklahoma, the 39 tribes, the ones that have done 

away with blood quantum for membership have had enormous 

membership growth, it’s just a dynamic. Those are also those tribes 

that are most successful from a business model. If you’re still doing 

blood quantum, technically, over time, you’ll be anthropologically 

extinct over a period of 500 to 1,000 years, so you have to consider 

that. You have to consider that in the way your tribe is going to 

grow. You can still have cultural things in place, there’s never been 

a problem with that. But that’s one of the hurdles that I see—the 

successful tribes have done away with that. 

And the other is, in the world of gaming. Gaming is speculative 

business. It does provide money and revenues for tribes and you 

certainly don’t want to push that away. It’s an available cash cow, 

if you will. However, it is not true economic development, because 

22 

it’s based on speculation. People can stop gambling anytime they 

want. Whereas, if you make a product, you’re hopeful that the demand that will be there, so people will come. But when you do have 

gaming, the distribution of those earnings and per cap distributions—the tribes that are successful don’t do that. The tribes that 

have difficulties are still giving that out. Those monies are better 

off served to create workforce development opportunities, such as 

scholarships for education, building health care facilities to better 

serve tribal members. That way it still comes to the tribe and individuals can tap into that once they’ve reached a element of success 

themselves. And so, what I wanted to do there with my recommendation was to get them out front, because those will be the 

ones that I want to have come back at you. Because I realize that 

there’s a lot of different opinions on that and mine are based on 

the mechanics of economic development, not personal opinion, more 

than anything else. That’s just—this is the way the rules lie on the 

table. If you want to see success, you’ll see those models are going 

in that fashion. 

So, I’ll stop there, Senator. Thank you for the opportunity. 

The prepared statement of Mr. Southard follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF CLARK SOUTHARD, LIEUTENANT COLONEL (U.S. ARMY, 

RET.); EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WASHITA VALLEY REGIONAL PARTNERSHIP; 

CHAIRMAN, OKLAHOMA SOUTHWEST ALLIANCE; AND VICE CHAIRMAN, DELAWARE

NATION ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY

Honorable Senator Lankford, 

Sir, I am honored to have the opportunity to address the United States Senate 

Indian Affairs Committee in this field hearing session today. I am a native Oklahoman, as well as a Native American; being both Comanche and Choctaw. 

Experience and Credentials 

I currently serve in the capacity as the Executive Director of the Washita Valley 

Regional Partnership (WVRP), which is a private/public economic development organization covering the rural area in and around Caddo County, Oklahoma. WVRP’s 

partners are: The City of Anadarko, Caddo County Industrial Authority, Caddo 

Kiowa Technology Center, Caddo Electric Cooperative, Western Farmers Electric 

Cooperative and Public Services of Oklahoma. 

I also serve, having been elected by my peers and colleagues, as the Chairman 

of the Oklahoma Southwest Alliance, which is a twenty county economic development consortium covering the twenty counties west of I–35 and south of I–40 in 

Southwest Oklahoma. We are primarily comprised of economic development professionals, mayors, city managers and other partners interested in the economic 

growth and prosperity of the southwest quadrant of our state. 

I am a member of the Comanche Nation and am a Choctaw descendant as well. 

I am a graduate of the University of Oklahoma’s Economic Development Institute. 

A member of the Oklahoma Economic Development Council, the International Economic Development Council, the Oklahoma Southwest Alliance and the Southwest 

Oklahoma Impact Coalition’s Front Line Team. I am further honored to be the first 

non-Delaware to serve on the Delaware Nation’s Economic Development Authority. 

I hold both undergraduate and post-graduate degrees and served proudly in the 

United States Army for twenty-nine years both in peacetime and in combat. 

Accordingly, I feel well qualified to address issues regarding the economic development environs within which our proud Native American nations lie not only here 

in Southwest Oklahoma, but in Oklahoma and the United States as well. 

Definitions 

Economic Success. Defining economic success is vastly different than saying we 

have some tribal businesses that are still open. Native American ‘‘self-determination’’ is often heralded as a key ingredient in an over-arching belief that this leads 

towards either tribal or individual financial independence. Needless to say, tribal 

and individual definitions are also, vastly different. Economic success varies from 

a macro to the micro perspective as much as financial independence varies from 

23 

tribal to individual. A basic understanding of these precepts is important, if one is 

to assign a value to the claim of economic success. Accordingly, I will present both 

a tribal and individual level set of standards for testimonial purposes. 

Tribal (Sovereign Nation) Economic Success would exist when a tribe is functioning a level beyond simple sustainment in its ability to provide for its people. 

Tribal Financial Independence would exist when a tribe is functioning at a level 

that displays true competitiveness in a global economy and excels in its ability to 

provide for its people without outside (read Federal Government) funding. 

Individual tribal member and/or business success does not have the requirement 

to provide for a people. This micro level is qualified as providing for oneself, one’s 

family or one’s business. 

Individual tribal member and/or business financial independence results when 

there is no longer a requirement for any sort of financial assistance from the government. Financial independence is displayed when an individual earns their income 

solely on salary, profit or investment. The business model would display success 

when it is earning its income on a business profit and loss statement in an open 

market without tribal and/or federal monetary assistance. 

Economic Development. Economic Development is the process of creating wealth 

through the mobilization of human, financial, capital, physical and natural resources to generate marketable goods and services. This academic definition for economic development generally applies to entities beyond the individual or individual 

business. In this testimony, we are referring largely to tribes or sovereign nations. 

However, as is the case with the federal government, tribal governments are not 

equipped with the skill sets to create wealth with the legislative bodies. Federal and 

tribal governments, that are successful models, have established internal agencies 

that help guide the environment to provide for a situation where wealth creation 

can occur. In the proper environment, in our nation, the open market, business people will either win or lose in the world of business. The open market is driven by 

supply and demand of goods and services. 

Six principles of economic development. There are six key components of economic 

development that are widely accepted in the economic development community. 

These principle components must all be in place for there to be true economic 

growth and wealth creation. These principles are: Workforce Development, Leadership Development, Community Capacity Development, Business Retention and Expansion, Entrepreneurial Development and Business and Industry Recruitment. The 

baseline requirements for economic development are the first three; workforce, leadership and community capacity development. Without those three in place, the business development components are meaningless. The primary production tiers are 

business retention and expansion (which accounts for 85 percent of all business 

growth and development in the United States) and entrepreneurial development. 

The final tier, business and industry recruitment is the pinnacle of economic development. It only happens when all of the other five elements are in place and working well. 

Observations and Recommendations 

I. Personal observations are replete with exceptions, contrary examples and false 

perceptions. I do not discount that; however, my experience and observations come 

with the aforementioned credentials and professional acumen in the area of economic development. In the world of business, there are winners and losers. Government policies can alter the environment and amend competition to favor disadvantaged demographics; however, in the open market there will still be winners and 

losers. 

Tribal Sovereign Nations create separate governmental constitutions and tribal 

structures for prosecution of the will of their inherent population. There are 39 federally recognized tribes within the State of Oklahoma, each with its own individual 

constitution and structure. There are 9 federally recognized tribes within Caddo 

County, Oklahoma and they are the Comanche, Kiowa, Apache, Wichita, Caddo, 

Delaware, Fort Sill Apache and the Cheyenne-Arapaho. Several of these regional 

tribes have suffered nearly complete collapse in their governmental structure within 

the last five years. Several of these regional tribes have also suffered loss (bankruptcy) of their gaming institutions and its flow of speculative dollars. At least one, 

is now dealing with abject corruption in its former leadership and will continue to 

suffer the consequences of direct interference from tribal politics in its otherwise 

functional economic development arm. Sadly, this kind of failure, when related to 

the world of business is a red flag and accordingly, there is a reticence from the 

external business community to have anything to do with these or any Native American tribes. 

24 

Recommendation: For tribal businesses to function and compete successfully in a 

global market environment, a tribal structure must be in place that buffers tribal 

businesses from tribal politics. 

II. The ‘‘Trust’’ and/or ‘‘Sovereign’’ land dilemma. ‘‘Trust’’ land is a two-edged 

sword. The advantages of ‘‘Trust’’ land for some Native American enterprises is that 

of tax avoidance. Solely owned Native American businesses, such as gaming institutions, use this to advantage. There are certainly unique examples of other businesses flourishing on ‘‘Trust’’ land. However, free market (non-Native) businesses 

largely will not invest in nor partner with businesses on ‘‘Trust’’ land. They perceive, and rightly so, that they will have no legal recourse nor actual ownership in 

a business that is not on ‘‘Fee Simple’’ real estate. 

Recommendation: Move ‘‘Trust’’ and/or ‘‘Sovereign’’ land out of trust to attract free 

market investment and partnerships. Laws that govern business in the open market 

still apply and legal recourse is available to both parties involved. 

III. There has been a regional tendency to create businesses without first doing 

the business basics. The standard metric for new business start-ups is a failure rate 

of nearly 80 percent both nationally and internationally. It is a tough prospect to 

take a business from ground zero to actually being clear of red ink and showing a 

profit. For the record, there is also a tendency for government programs to push 

start up ideas and grants on tribal entities that are not set up to run and manage 

a business. The idea sounds good or the money looks great, but the reality is that 

business basics are a must. 

Recommendation: Follow business basic guidelines with start-up businesses. 

1. First priority is always a solid Business Plan. 

2. Second priority is always to know and have your financials in order. 

3. Ensure your workforce is in place before starting or investing in a business. 

4. Use all available resources for entrepreneurial and business start-up efforts. 

5. Do all of the above or DO NOT start. 

IV. Tribal Entities which have gained real market share in the world economy 

and have seen actual tribal and economic growth have made two specific changes 

to their internal membership structure. These changes have been the paradigm shift 

from economic stagnation to economic success on par with modern, competitive businesses nationally and internationally. The key features of these changes have been 

the ability to grow demographically, which equates to strength and resources and 

the ability to invest in workforce development. These positive changes are: 

1. Membership eligibility has been changed from ‘‘Blood Quantum’’ to ‘‘Legacy/ 

Decendancy’’. Those tribes that have remained blood quantum oriented have 

stagnated and/or declining growth. Anthropologically speaking, they will eventually become numerically extinct. 

2. Per Cap distribution from gaming revenues to tribal membership was stopped 

and those funds were invested in education and workforce development programs for tribal workforce growth and in medical/health care facilities to improve healthcare and quality of life for their tribal members. 

Recommendation: I strongly urge Native American sovereign nations to enact both 

of these critical changes. The results are immediate and positive. 

Sovereign immunity remains at the core of the divide. The Non-Native business 

community will simply never feel that the environment is equitable in a market 

place when favoritism is being exercised. Business waits for no one. Competitive 

businesses have learned that the easiest way to deal with sovereign immunity 

issues is simply to avoid them. Accordingly, economic development does not occur 

‘‘naturally’’ in the closed market caused by sovereign immunity in regions where 

that exists. Always remember, ‘‘Change is inevitable, progress is optional.’’ 

Senator LANKFORD. All right. Thank you, to all five of you. I’m 

going to open this up to questions and I’m going to throw questions 

out to each of you. If any one of you wants to contribute to what 

someone else has said; agree, disagree, whatever it may be. This 

will all go on the record as well, so feel free to be able to jump in 

on that one. 

Mr. Kouplen, let me start with you. How can tribes leverage land 

held in trust to gain financing from banks? This has been an on 

25 

going economic development question. Once that land is in trust 

there’s capital there, but can’t actually tap into that capital. So 

how can that happen? 

Mr. KOUPLEN. Well, the Lieutenant Colonel said it very well. It 

makes you very nervous, from a—and I’m on both sides of it. I live 

in this very unique world where I am the lender, where we are 

looking at projects that we want to finance. And through my involvement with Creek Nation, I understand the benefit of putting 

property in trust, so I see both sides. Often, if the tribe will agree 

to waive sovereignty, there are legal ways to—for the bank to get 

comfortable making that loan. And just so everybody understands, 

it’s really basic economics. This issue is—what you don’t want to 

have happen is you make—all we do as banks, is buy and sell 

money. We buy money in the form of deposits, we sell it in the form 

of loans. We make a net profit of roughly one percent as an industry, so it’s a very thin margin industry. So, what you can’t afford 

to do is make—— 

Senator LANKFORD. So you don’t own all the money in the bank? 

Mr. KOUPLEN. None of the money. 

Senator LANKFORD. That’s what I’ve always heard. 

Mr. KOUPLEN. That’s a huge misnomer. My children think we 

have more money than we do and I tell them it’s all other people’s 

money. It all just goes through, so—but what you don’t want to 

have happen is, you don’t want to loan money on a project, have 

the borrower not be able to pay it back and then have no collateral 

in which to pay it back. So, I would say the best case scenario that 

I’ve seen—and I would say many banks—they just won’t go there. 

The risk is just too great. They don’t want to get embroiled in a 

legal controversy whether it’s in tribal court or wherever—so, 

they’ll just avoid this type of lending. Some, however, including us 

will, if there is a waiver of sovereignty that’s very clear and understandable between both parties and we agree that if something 

happened, it would be adjudicated in, you know, traditional court, 

then you can get past it, but it’s tough. 

Senator LANKFORD. Colonel? 

Mr. SOUTHARD. I’d like to jump on that, again, since I kind of 

brought it up in one spot. I spoke with two district judges in the 

last week, actually, about this very thing and just because you 

waive sovereign immunity in the contract is at the end of the day, 

meaningless. It can still come back to the district courts and then 

it’ll be moved over into the BIA court system. And so, lenders know 

that, and your attorneys know that, and so they’re going to be very 

reticent about moving forward with those kinds of loans or doing 

investments on trust land. And it’s a common misconception that 

you can’t move things that are in trust land out of trust. That’s doable, just as you can do the reverse in some cases. You can get land 

placed into trust if you just stay out of that lane. It’s like a switch, 

on/off. If you stay out of that lane, you’re opening yourself up to 

opportunity. If you go into that lane, you’ve closed a door and you 

can’t blame banks. I can’t. I mean, we try to work as tightly as we 

can with our lenders in our region. But I would caution one from 

thinking that you can’t still file the suit and end up in the BIA 

court system, where then, you would just lose. 

26 

Senator LANKFORD. So then how can people build capital on access and build capital over time? Because part of the challenges for 

economic development, if you own a business, running a business, 

that business is now collateral or that home is now collateral, be 

able to do loans against that and continue to accelerate your 

wealth. If it’s not possible to do that—if a business or a home or 

whatever it may be, is still locked into that system, you can’t build 

a growing sense of wealth. So, how can someone, whether it be a 

Native American or a tribe, start building that capital wealth? 

Mr. KOUPLEN. Just don’t put the property in trust in — 

Senator LANKFORD. So, you’re talking about trying to have 

both—some things you have in trust, some things you don’t have 

in trust? 

Mr. KOUPLEN. Right. Most of your—I’ve—I don’t think—I’ve 

never run into—we loan to many, many Native American borrowers. And from a private business perspective, it’s a non-issue. 

Their businesses, their land is—we’ve never run into it being in 

trust. It’s only when you’re loaning money to the tribe itself. And, 

then—and I would just say to his point, you just got to have some 

of both. Keep it—putting it in trust provides you great protection, 

tax benefits. I mean, there’s lots of reasons to do it, but you probably just ought to have a mix. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. Mr. Narcomey? 

Mr. NARCOMEY. In my experience with tribes—and Lieutenant 

Colonel said it really well—you know, I belong to the Seminole Nation and I was on the Economic Development Committee for the 

Seminole Nation for four years. And the frustration that I felt was 

I couldn’t separate the—you know, we were tasked to develop business. Well, when I started, we ended up, you know—Kelly Haney 

(phonetic) had nominated me for that position. Well, when we— 

SNDC, Seminole Nation Division of Commerce, we found that we 

were in—you know, fines with the National Indian Gaming Commission—that we had a bunch of these fines that we had to pay 

back. Well, that limited any capital whatsoever that a bank would 

loan. So we were hamstrung, we couldn’t, you know, start a business. We had no money. 

And what Lieutenant Colonel also mentioned is you’ve got to 

have some autonomy away from the tribe. It’s got to be a separate 

entity with its own, you know, separate—you know, organization 

that can make decisions, because every decision that we had to 

make had to go in front of the General Council, well there’s 14 

bands, two members per band. So, anything that we wanted to get 

approved had to be, you know, of the approval of 28 members. 

Some of those members, you know, were—they’re band members. 

They’re there for a reason. Sometimes, it’s—you know, it’s family 

that gets them, you know, to be a band member. So a lot of folks— 

and I’m not knocking the Seminole Nation, I think it’s the way 

with a lot of tribes—aren’t business savvy enough to be able to 

make decisions. They just make it based on fear or some other decision. So anyway, we couldn’t get anything done from an economic 

standpoint at all. The Seminole Nation Division of Commerce just 

disbanded. We’re relying now on gaming and I think, you know— 

I think it’s highly speculative. And so I just—you know, we didn’t 

win. You know, we attempted it and then there was a—you know, 

27 

the Chief changed. There was another Chief that came in—from 

Chief Haney to Chief Harjo, and he just had a different philosophy 

also. So it, you know—I’ve went to a lot of—I was trying to find 

a business partner that was a tribe, to come to the table with me 

to do work with the Corps of Engineers. But what I found is they 

were either, you know—they either had that situation where they 

were, you know, too tied to the tribe and they couldn’t make decisions. But bonding companies will—you know, it’s like banks, bonding companies, you have to put up payment performance bond. 

That surety wants collateral. They want to know that there’s a 

waiver, you know—waiver of sovereign immunity. And Seminole 

Nation won’t do it, so that’s another problem. Thank you. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. Let me keep going. From an economic 

development point of view, what can tribes do to become more economically diverse? So when you’re thinking about ideas here, expanding the diversity of economic development, what are some of 

the things out there or what ideas would you propose? 

Mr. KOUPLEN. You know, I would echo a couple of comments that 

have been made and one that I would add. First and foremost, 

when you see this economic development separation work, it’s really cool. I mean, we have a visionary Chief through the Creek Nation that said, hey, let’s separate and create Onefire Holding Company and gave the LLC tremendous autonomy. So I would, one, 

echo the—I think that’s first and foremost, because you have significant—in many tribes, you have significant resources coming in 

through gaming. And if those resources can be invested into, you 

know, for-profit businesses that create jobs and can bring, you 

know, prosperity into the nation. That’s great for everybody, but 

what happens is the politics gets—gums it up so much and keeps 

that from happening, so I would mention that. 

Two is, I would go back to when the country was going through 

our recent recessionary times, the worst of the worst, you saw the 

SBA step up and provide great relief in many ways. They provided 

90 percent guarantees to many loan programs, which made it that 

much safer for banks. They lowered their fees for the borrower and 

for the bank and they—it was just a wonderful way to allow a bank 

to take appropriate risk and get dollars out the door to potential 

borrowers. And I would see the same thing working for Native 

American entrepreneurs. You know, I mean, if we really as a country wanted to make a commitment to Native American entrepreneurs, we could do that through doing that same type of program for businesses that were 51 percent or more owned by Native 

Americans. That would be my thoughts. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. 

Ms. Overal, Mr. Kouplen mentioned earlier, we have more programs than we can actually get out the door and let people know 

about. SBA has a tremendous number of programs, you highlighted 

several of those. How can we get the word out on more of these different opportunities that are available to tribes or individuals to be 

able to start business—have some of those guarantees? So what’s 

the best way to be able to articulate some of these? 

Ms. OVERAL. Well, I would say one effort that we have in my office right now—I recently was able to staff up, and so we have a 

great economic development team now and we’re getting out and 

28 

networking with other organizations, such as the Colonel’s group. 

And trying to work together, because there’s more strength in a 

telephone book than a few sheets of paper. And so we’re trying to 

work together and educate each other, so that I know what you’re 

doing and you know what I’m doing. And maybe I can’t help you 

with exactly what you need, but maybe you can and I can refer 

you. So, that’s one effort that I personally have going with my staff 

and we’re working with the Oklahoma Department of Commerce to 

do that also, and some other Federal agencies. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. For you and Mr. Narcomey as well, 

the 8(a) program, what ways can it be improved at this point, to 

be able to, both, help individuals that are in it succeed—— 

Ms. OVERAL. Yes. 

Senator LANKFORD.—but also help people graduate? As you all 

graduated and are a successful business—— 

Ms. OVERAL. Yes. 

Senator LANKFORD.—that still exists. There are lots of opportunities as there are for lots of small businesses. They start, they run, 

then they fail at the end of it. 

Ms. OVERAL. Yes. 

Senator LANKFORD. It’s a very difficult process to launch a business in America. 

Ms. OVERAL. Yes. 

Senator LANKFORD.—but many people have done it, and to be 

able to actually pull it off with a lot of mentors and help and other 

folks. 

Ms. OVERAL. Yes. 

Senator LANKFORD. So what are some of the keys of success of 

getting an 8(a) out there and then surviving on their own, past the 

expiration in nine years? 

Ms. OVERAL. Okay. First of all, working with individuals who are 

interested in getting into the program—Frank, when you applied 

it was a paper application, I believe. Well, now it’s an online application. That’s much more efficient but, again, some people need a 

little help in getting that application. I also like the fact about 

what you said, Frank, about mentoring others, that’s so important. 

I, as a Federal employee, could tell you, oh, this is a great program, 

you need to do this, you know, say okay. But if Frank says it, I 

walk that walk, I talk that talk. So that’s another way of getting 

the program out. 

SBA is working harder to do some more trainings, more focus 

trainings, like this one training that I have coming up in Durant. 

It’s focused on Native Americans; tribally owned and Native American owned firms, so it’s specialized training. And that will take 

place in—I think it’s the end of June, early July. And maybe I need 

to do some more of that in Oklahoma. 

Senator LANKFORD. How are you getting the word out to the 

tribes? 

Ms. OVERAL. How do I get the word out? Okay. We’re doing a lot 

more using social media. We’re doing a lot more with a program 

called ‘‘doc gov delivery’’, where we can put something out to 5,000 

people. These are individuals who sign up to receive information 

from us. And so we put it out on that and that’s been very effective. 

29 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. So individuals that are here, how 

would they get that information? 

Ms. OVERAL. How would they get the information? They could 

visit the SBA website—is www.sba.gov, that will give you the national website. And you can actually hone in to just Oklahoma or 

any state. We now have that site in Spanish also. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. Great. 

Mr. Ruttman, let me ask you about preparation. There are 

unique challenges dealing with Native American students coming 

through the program and how are you addressing that for economic 

development for workforce preparation? 

Mr. RUTTMAN. Well, I, again, just kind of touched on the surface 

of a lot of what we do at Caddo/Kiowa. One of the challenges that 

people have to attend school these days—Native American communities not the only one with this challenge—but child care. We have 

a 120 certified-size child care facility—three star. And it’s not unusual to see a young person get off that bus with three children in 

tow—or carrying. We go infant through pre-K. So that eliminates 

a little bit of a roadblock there and I will say that Kiowa tribe in 

particular actually funds a staff member for that, but it’s a pretty 

large facility. The students we get in, so many times have financial 

challenges that we can’t begin to fathom, just what they’re going 

through to come to school and so we try to work through that to 

help them. We even have a foundation that helps when there’s just 

no money—that they just can’t do anything. And one thing that we 

don’t talk about just a lot, but we have a 13th, 14th year scholarship. Any student that went to school in this district, this region, 

up until the time they turn 21, they can still attend our school free 

of tuition for full time programs—the high school age ones. Everything we do is to try and prepare them to be ready to go into the 

workforce. And I can’t stress enough, we’re happy to have people 

come back for continuing education their entire life, but our goal 

is to put them in the workforce. So, again, we follow up with them; 

we do it one year out, we do it two years out. Sometimes as far 

out as five years, to make sure we’re training and giving them the 

skills they need to be successful. 

Senator LANKFORD. So you feel confident what you’re training 

them for there actually transitions easily into the workforce—that 

you’re preparing them, not for a job that doesn’t exist, but for a job 

that does exist and the skills they need to do that? 

Mr. RUTTMAN. Yes. Yes. We not only are pretty confident about 

it, but we have a lot of companies that come in our doors to find 

out how they can get some of those employees. I’m going to, I 

guess, brag a little bit on our welding instructor. He turns out 

more state certified welders in Fort Cobb, Oklahoma, than any 

technology center in the state of Oklahoma. Now, we’ve got 32,000 

people in 1,954 square miles and we’re training more state certified 

welders. Well, if you’re going to the oil and gas industry in particular, you better have that card. He goes the extra mile to get 

that done. And we have students that leave there probably the bottom end, at about $40,000 and we had them leave there as high 

as $90,000 a year. Pretty good deal for somebody to start out, so 

— Senator LANKFORD. That’s great. 

30 

Mr. RUTTMAN. we’re pretty confident in what we do and always— 

I guess I left out, we have what we call business and education 

councils there. They don’t—that’s business owners that not only 

come in and talk to our students to try and recruit them, but to 

tell us what we need to be adding to their training to make sure 

they’re ready. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. 

All right. Mr. Southard—Colonel Southard, let me ask you a personal question on this. What does the Federal government need to 

do to get out of the way of tribes, where they’re in the way of economic development? And I promise I won’t take it personally. 

Mr. SOUTHARD. Yeah, but we’re recording this; right? 

Senator LANKFORD. Yes, sir. We are. Actually this is a good thing 

to have on the record, so what I’m looking for is there are things 

that a tribe could do or a tribal member could do to advance, except 

for that. It slows it down and makes it more difficult, makes it 

more complicated, it adds another layer or bureaucracy to it. What 

can the Federal government do away with to help tribes in their 

economic development? 

Mr. SOUTHARD. That’s like a bear trap. I really don’t know that 

I have a specific thing that you could take away today. I do believe 

that—and I kind of talked to this a little bit in my testimony written piece—that for years we’ve talked about self-determination is 

the objective of what things the Bureau of Indian Affairs does—the 

oversight committee would like to see. The reality is it’s still going 

to be about individual effort to make economic success occur. And 

then, when we talk definitions, your being financially independent 

as a family, as a tribe, as a business, is your goal. And so, what 

that also implies is you are moving away from having government 

programs that support you in that effort, that’s a real tough one. 

You know, there’s a mentality sometimes when you have things 

that come to you in government programs, well, we can ride this 

for as long as it’ll stay. I think all of us have observed over the last 

several decades that Federal monies are getting smaller and smaller every day. So, one day that will run out or could and if you 

haven’t created something to stand on, on your own, then you’re 

going to be standing there like with the musical chairs thing and 

there’s not going to be a chair to sit down in. And so I think what’s 

important—part of that mission said that the Federal government 

probably ought to have is how do you start eliminating those programs that make sense to eliminate—to wean that dependency on 

Federal structure. 

However, at the same time, the opportunities under the 8(a) programs and so on, are enormously important to take disadvantage 

businesses and disadvantage people when they’re truly disadvantaged, to give them an opportunity to get to work and get things 

done. And we’ve had some good success out here. I don’t want to 

be the grim reaper, I am not. The reality is I’m all over trying to 

create positive economic advancement. And in the Delaware, as an 

example, since I do sit on their Economic Development Authority 

Board, we have had some real good 8(a) businesses that have gone 

from mentorship programs into successful, on their own programs, 

and are now mentoring other businesses. So, those things do hapVerDate Mar 15 2010 11:52 Nov 03, 2015 Jkt 097352 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 S:\DOCS\97352.TXT JACK
31 

pen and the advantage does run out—I believe it’s ten years when 

you—— 

Ms. OVERAL. Nine years. 

Mr. SOUTHARD. Nine, when you actually run out of your advantages in a 8(a) program. But at that point, they’re ready to roll and 

there’s positive growth. And that’s the kind of thing you need to be 

shooting for as an objective and the government ought to have that 

as a target for probably every program that’s out there like that. 

Ms. OVERAL. And Senator, may I add, the 8(a) program—there 

is—there are no extensions. So it’s not one of those programs that 

you can apply for an extension; 9 years, its over. 

Mr. SOUTHARD. Right. 

Senator LANKFORD. What have you seen, as far as the success 

rate in the 8(a) programs, as far as, at the end of that 9 years; by 

your 10, 11, 12, that business still exists? 

Ms. OVERAL. Well, hopefully—this is a business development program. 

Senator LANKFORD. Right. 

Ms. OVERAL. We work with the clients throughout the 9 years. 

Hopefully, if we’ve done a good job, they—we’ve taught them how 

to go after those contracts themselves, without the aid of the government. So at the end of the 9th year, they should be ready to be 

on their own and as we’re in the program—as a—as a business in 

the program, each year we’re forcing them to have more eggs in 

their basket, not just waiting for us to help you get a contract. 

And I think, Frank, you’re a perfect example on that, of how that 

worked. I mean, it sounds a little tough, we’re saying, hey, the mix 

in your basket isn’t right. You’ve been in this program for five 

years, it’s time for you to have more that you’ve gotten on your 

own. Be looking at some private sector contracts. 

Senator LANKFORD. Right. 

Mr. NARCOMEY. Senator, I can add a little bit to that. I argued 

with Dottie’s office one time about I didn’t meet—there was a time 

when I did not meet the specified—I think I was in my 6th or 7th 

year—— 

Ms. OVERAL. It was probably about 6th—yes, about that. 

Mr. NARCOMEY.—and it was—I had to meet the 35 percent, non 

8(a). 

Well, I was doing some work at Tinker, Department of the Air 

Force. They went through the Corps of Engineers. And, you know, 

we were doing a good job and I think we—they liked us, you know. 

We were doing what we were, you know, supposed to do, on time, 

and we were taking care of the customer. We were rewarded with 

more work. Next thing I know, we were getting quite a bit of 8(a) 

work. Well, I’m—my 35 percent over here, it’s tough, it’s tough. 

And so, Dottie, what I did is—my son was the center on the football team. The Edmond School Board over construction, his son 

was the quarterback at Edmond. So I went to him and I said if you 

got anything we can bid, we’re going to bid it, because I want—at 

least I know who I’m dealing with. You know, I’m dealing with, you 

know, some—an individual I know. Well, we bid that school work 

at nothing and barely got it. And I think we might have broke even 

on that work, Dottie, but it kept us in the 8(a) program. And so, 

our growth was almost—I mean, we were almost inverted and 

32 

that’s the—that was the scary part. I mean, I think we did a very, 

very good job taking care of the customers. We were the ones on 

the ground, dealing with the customers. We assisted the government in finding solutions to problems. I think that’s why they liked 

us and then when we left the 8(a) program, it was like, Frank, how 

can we get to you? How can we have your services? That’s how— 

you know, I thought, well, perhaps, you know, if I gave back what’s 

been given to me to a tribe or to, you know, another individually 

owned 8(a), that would allow me to participate in the program and 

stay with the customers that I, you know, have been with. So that’s 

what we’ve done. 

But today—the issue I have today, Senator, is small business. 

There is so much competition for the work. There are women 

owned, HubZoned—— 

Ms. OVERAL. Service connected, disabled vets. 

Mr. NARCOMEY.—service, disabled, veteran owned small businesses. And, you know, there’s only so many dollars. So, what I’m 

fighting is, hey, I’m Native American, you know, I’m Indian, you 

know, I need work. You know, please don’t forget me, I’m small 

business. That’s what I’m having to go to my government counterparts and say, wait a minute, I mean, I know you’ve got these 

check marks to do, I know you got these percentages and goals; but 

please don’t forget small business. And that’s where we are right 

now, I feel like we’re being, you know, a little left out. You know, 

my feelings are a little hurt because everybody else is more important. And that’s where I’m having a rough time right now, is I 

think we do—we have probably leaned hard on, you know—more 

towards government contract. And I think we’re—you know, we do 

a good job. So I don’t want to ignore that, but how do I stay in it? 

That’s that’s what I’m working with right now. 

Senator LANKFORD. All right. Let me give you a final question, 

because we’re going to get close on time here to try to wrap up. But 

I do want to leave this out here. 

Oklahoma tribes have been incredibly successful on the whole 

and there are many things that can be shared with other tribes. 

Of the 566 tribes across the nation, to say here are a couple of 

ideas that a tribe has done or that you have seen done, that you 

think that’s a great idea for economic development. Many of those 

you’ve already shared during the course of this conversation. If 

there is a single idea or a couple of ideas that you’d be willing to 

share—just to make a brief comment on, to say this is one of the 

secrets of success that we have seen among some of the Oklahoma 

tribes, for the secret, either members—individual members or 

tribes as a whole, to economic success that you think could be 

shared with the entire nation. Anyone who can share in any order. 

Mr. KOUPLEN. Senator, if you don’t mind, let me cheat and go 

back, because I really want to share. You asked what the Federal 

government can do. Please let me just share three things. 

One is small businesses look for certainty. They look for certainty. They don’t like to wonder whether or not a tax credit is 

going to get extended or a program is going to get extended or that 

the budget is a year late or two years late. That’s number one, so 

providing them with certainty so they understand the rules from 

year to year. 

33 

Minimizing the red tape, mostly from a regulatory perspective, is 

brutal. I mean, you’re trying to make a living. I mean, you see the 

passion that Frank is talking with, I mean, he’s trying to make a 

living. He doesn’t need inspectors, you know, out creating rules to 

put him out of business. 

And then finally, fiscal responsibility. Investors would be a whole 

lot more excited about investing if we knew that our government 

was solvent and that we could actually pay our bills and balance 

our own budget. So, I would just share that, unsolicited, with you. 

Senator LANKFORD. Great. 

Mr. KOUPLEN. As far as the number one thing that I think, I’ve 

watched the Creek Nation do, is hire great people and we visited 

with the Council. We always want to hire Native American, but 

what I have seen is when we’re hiring professional positions, they 

said get the best—get the best talent. And so, the greater the talent within the tribe, the more successful it has become, no matter 

the race of that talent. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. Other ideas? 

Mr. RUTTMAN. Well, I might throw something in and it really 

goes out to the tribal leaders in the room. When we started our economic development operation, one of the things we charged Mr. 

Southard with was to try and form stronger partnerships with our 

tribes. We have a huge resource in the tribes in Southwest Oklahoma and he’s had success with a couple of tribes. But I guess my 

charge to you would be—you might not think we can do you any 

good but I’d say if you wanted to make a call to Clark and open 

that door to maybe partnering on doing some things, I think that 

door would be open. 

Clark, would you—— 

Mr. SOUTHARD. Absolutely. And I think I’ve just got a—it’s some 

quote I picked up from somebody, somewhere along the line. 

Change is inevitable, but progress is optional. If you don’t posture 

yourself for progress you’re not going to have it, you’re just going 

to change. And that change can be the same old, same old, same 

old, here in rural Oklahoma, unless you posture yourself correctly. 

So—and absolutely, we—I would look forward to further operations 

and activities with the Native American people out here, that’s my 

family as well, so—not as many Comanche up in this part of the 

neck of the woods, but they’re at the southern part of Caddo County. So, there you go. 

Ms. OVERAL. I would say the tribes need to work with the youth, 

because that’s our future, and expose them to entrepreneurship. 

Some tribes are doing a really good job of that right now, having 

entrepreneurship programs in—sometimes even in the junior high 

school and the high school, because that is a great option for our 

young folks. 

Senator LANKFORD. Okay. Any last minute comments? 

[No response.] 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you all for being a part of this conversation. This is a very important conversation. It’s a conversation 

we’ve had in D.C. in multiple hearings. We’ll have additional field 

hearings in other states and locations to be able to gather ideas. 

As we gather all these ideas and put them on the permanent 

record and the congressional record, it’s very important as we go 

34 

forward in the days ahead, as we write legislation, work with BIA, 

BIE, SBA, all the different entities, to be able to determine what’s 

the best way to be able to help our tribes. 

For those of you that are tribal leaders and elected officials, 

thank you for being here and the way that you invest in your tribe 

and the leadership that you’re providing to people. That is a thankless job in many ways. I understand, I’ve been elected as well. I 

understand the challenges that are there. You have spent a great 

deal of your time serving, so thanks for doing that. 

For those of you that are here, if you have additional ideas, I 

know the tribal leaders that want to be able to submit things. I’ll 

leave the record open for the next two weeks, so that we can extend 

the record with your comments and ideas. And we’ll be glad to be 

able to receive those. 

With that, we are adjourned. 

[Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned.] 

(35) 

A P P E N D I X 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE CITIZEN POTAWATOMI NATION

On behalf of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, thank you for the opportunity to submit testimony before the U.S. Senate Committee on Indian Affairs oversight hearing 

on ‘‘Advancing Economic Success in Indian Country.’’ The Citizen Potawatomi Nation is the federally-recognized government of the Citizen Potawatomi people and 

exercises governmental jurisdiction in the 900 square mile area bound by the North 

Canadian River, the South Canadian River, the Pottawatomie-Seminole County 

boundary on the east and the Indian Meridian on the west. Government leadership 

consists of a three person executive committee, Tribal Chairman John ‘‘Rocky’’ Barrett; Vice-Chairman Linda Capps and Secretary/Treasurer D. Wayne Trousdale, and 

a 16 person legislature representing more than 32,000 tribal citizens. 

Introduction 

With nearly 40 federally recognized Tribes, Oklahoma, formerly called Indian Territory, is home to the second largest Native American population in the United 

States. Tribes in the U.S. have struggled for decades to make economic dreams a 

reality and to care for tribal people and communities. From jobs to healthcare services to education assistance, this focus on the Oklahoma community is more than 

just a benefit for Native Americans; it is a cornerstone to our state’s successful 

growth in the past decade. 

The foundation of this growth rests on the principle of tribal sovereignty, a right 

which was granted to tribes across this great country as a tool to promote economic 

growth. Tribal land is governed by federal law, which allows tribes to host a number 

of businesses and enterprises. Although many believe that tribes are wealthy because of gaming, tribal leaders recognize that tribes must diversify businesses to be 

successful and provide opportunities for our citizens and the communities across 

Oklahoma. Tribal governments should not be required to depend solely on gaming 

to build economic sustainability. The Federal 477 program has provided a great resource to get individuals jobs ready and has been great for economic development, 

however, there is much more to economic development in Indian Country. 

Citizen Potawatomi Nation Economic Development 

Citizen Potawatomi Nation has created many tribal enterprises in order to 

achieve economic sustainability. CPN owns FireLake Discount Foods, the largest 

tribally-owned grocery store in the United States. It also owns the largest triballyowned national bank chain, First National Bank and Trust Co. with seven banks 

in the state. Other tribal enterprises include a Cultural Heritage Center, FireLake 

Golf Course, FireLake Ball Fields and the Grand Casino Hotel and Resort, which 

have become popular destinations for Oklahoma residents and out of state tourists. 

The Citizen Potawatomi Nation has been generous with its success. With a $558 

million economic impact in 2013 and more than 2,200 employees, the tribe is the 

economic engine in its jurisdiction in Pottawatomie, Oklahoma and Cleveland counties. 

Since 2003, Citizen Potawatomi Nation has created seven of every 10 jobs in the 

City of Shawnee. CPN also spends 30 cents of every tribal dollar spent in Shawnee 

and has brought nearly $300 million in Federal dollars to the State of Oklahoma. 

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, one in every four Native Americans lives 

in poverty. Although the Citizen Potawatomi Nation cannot be all things to all people, the tribe goes to great lengths to help when there is a need. Since 2005, CPN 

has given more than $5 million to nearly 200 community organizations and community groups in the surrounding areas who serve Native and non-native alike. 

On a monthly basis, the Citizen Potawatomi Nation’s Health clinics see more than 

1,700 patients. This includes 250 behavioral health appointments, 500 lab tests and 

250 x-rays. In the last two years, the CPN dental program has doubled in size, making it the best of the best in terms of staff and dental technology. CPN has also 

added physical therapy and optometry services in the past year. 

36 

The CPN tribal police force acts as first responders and essential backup to our 

brother agencies like the Shawnee Police Department and the Pottawatomie County 

Sheriff’s Department. Recently, CPN agreed to operate Pottawatomie County’s funding-challenged 911 call center and assume all costs for not only the county but also 

the small towns in the county, saving those entities $250,000 a year. 

The Citizen Potawatomi Nation has worked diligently to cultivate a tax base that 

can support its government functions. The tax collected at CPN grocery stores, bowling center, ball fields and golf course are all key components needed to achieve economic development on tribal land. CPN spends 100 percent of every tax dollar on 

government services such as roads, services for Native Americans and neighboring 

communities, education, emergency response and job creation. 

It has only been 40 years since the forced assimilation of Native Americans began 

to be reversed with the signing of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act. The Citizen Potawatomi Nation didn’t enter into a self-governance 

compact with the Bureau of Indian Affairs until 1999. Tribes are still reeling from 

the harmful polices of the past and have only experienced success due to extraordinary resilience and ingenuity. Unfortunately, that success is sometimes seen as 

a threat by other government leaders, a reason some tribes and local governments 

around the state still struggle to coexist today. 

Sub Chapter S Corporation 

There is a critical need in Indian country for tribes to be given the opportunity 

to enter into mutually beneficial partnerships with their non-Indian neighbors for 

the economic development of their geographic regions. To be successful, these partnerships need to have the ability to take on corporate forms that are (a) familiar 

to non-Indians, and (b) easy to administer. The Subchapter S corporate form is ideal 

for this purpose. Non-Indians understand Subchapter S corporations and are familiar with the rules for doing business with Subchapter S corporations. Unfortunately, 

Indian tribes are uniquely prohibited from participating in Subchapter S corporations. The IRS will allow a city, or even General Motors, to participate in a Subchapter S corporation, but not an Indian tribe. The federal statutes authorizing the 

creation of Subchapter S corporations should be amended to allow for such ownership. 

Congressman Frank Lucas has introduced a bill which, if enacted, will be the first 

step in creating a solution for this dilemma. Tribes need access to the same corporate structures as other American enterprises. In CPN’s future case, the tribe will 

be able to make ‘‘Sub S elections’’ for tribal corporations to do business in Oklahoma 

and then domesticate them in Oklahoma under State law. The contracts these corporations enter into will be subject to the authority of Oklahoma law and the jurisdiction of Oklahoma Courts without tribal sovereign immunity defenses. CPN will 

gain the benefit of limiting our liability to the capital in the Sub S Corporation, and 

our contractual partners and bank lenders will get the benefit of redress under state 

law. Both parties gain by eliminating any doubt of the enforceability of a contract 

with a tribal corporation doing business in Oklahoma. 

Leasehold Mortgages on Trust Property 

Another major obstacle to on-reservation lending is the trust status of tribal 

lands. Lenders expect to be able to foreclose if a borrower defaults; however, because 

trust land cannot be sold, lenders can’t foreclose on it in the event of default. Currently, if one builds a building on trust land, no attorney will issue an opinion to 

a bank that a leasehold mortgage can be perfected on buildings on Indian trust 

land. The primary reason is that the trustee, the U.S. Department of the Interior, 

will not assure lenders that leasehold mortgages on trust lands are enforceable. 

The use of leasehold mortgages is one solution to this problem. A leasehold mortgage allows the lender to, in effect, become the tenant on the land for a specified 

and tribally pre-approved period of time, and to rent the land or the facility or business on the land to recover money loaned to the tribe. In this way, the lender is 

protected, but, at the end of the lease, the land remains in the hands of the owner. 

Upon default of the mortgagor under a leasehold mortgage, the lender will initiate 

enforcement action as defined in the recorded leasehold Security Agreement and as 

certified by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. In short, the lender will commence a leasehold mortgage foreclosure in federal court or the court of jurisdiction by filing a 

verified complaint. Said jurisdiction shall be specified in the leasehold mortgage document and related indebtedness documents. 

Borrowers and lenders shall both represent to each other and the BIA that a 

leasehold mortgage is collateral and not debt service, and then any lender taking 

over the operation of business under a leasehold mortgage shall use standard care 

in running the business in order to obtain a return of the money lent and a preVerDate Mar 15 2010 11:52 Nov 03, 2015 Jkt 097352 PO 00000 Frm 00040 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6621 S:\DOCS\97352.TXT JACK
37 

approved rate of return on the money. In this manner, the BIA can obtain a trustee’s comfort level that the underlying real property shall be returned to the borrowing tribe in the same condition as when it was first encumbered, reasonable 

wear and tear accepted. 

If the Federal Government, as trustee of Indian lands, would guarantee enforcement of leasehold mortgages on trust property for commercial ventures in the same 

manner as it presently does for housing, large amounts of capital could become 

available for economic development in Indian Country without any additional financial burden upon the Federal Government. 

City of Shawnee Attempt to Collect Unwarranted Tax Revenue From CPN 

With 100 percent of its tax revenue supporting the diversification of the tribal 

economy and job creation, the Nation has spent more than $40 million on infrastructure and public safety in the past decade. Through management of federal funds 

and tribal sales tax revenue, CPN slowly built up the infrastructure in the areas 

long-forgotten by Shawnee city hall. 

The Citizen Potawatomi Nation is not only providing services to tribal governmental functions and enterprises, but also supports these same services to communities throughout its jurisdiction. Such was the case when CPN provided $625,000 

for the resurfacing of the James W. Allen Bridge in Shawnee, Okla. and gave 

$500,000 to widen Gordon Cooper Drive from Benson Park Road to Bob Crouch 

Drive in Tecumseh. 

This development and success finally drew attention of Shawnee’s leaders. In February 2014 CPN received a letter demanding that it act as a tax collector for the 

City of Shawnee. The letter claimed that city sales tax revenues were down due to 

tribal enterprises like FireLake Discount Foods. Like many city claims, these assertions proved hollow. Independent audits of its finances show that tax revenue has 

increased each year since 1996, with the exception of the fiscal year 2009–2010. 

On Sept. 10, CPN filed a detachment petition with the City of Shawnee for tribal 

land held in trust by the federal government. Shawnee City Clerk Phyllis Loftis denied the petition on the grounds that CPN was not the legal owner of the property 

because of its status as federal trust land. 

In response, Asst. Secretary of Indian Affairs Kevin K. Washburn wrote a letter 

to Citizen Potawatomi Nation affirming that ‘‘Indian tribes are the beneficial owners 

of land held for them in trust by the United States. As such, tribes enjoy full and 

exclusive possession, use and enjoyment of tribal lands. Further, tribal governments 

exercise jurisdiction over trust lands and trusts lands are generally exempt from jurisdiction of local and state governments, except where Congress has specifically authorized jurisdiction.’’ 

On Dec. 19, 2014 a judge ruled that city commission must grant Citizen Potawatomi Nation a public hearing on its detachment request. Although no one spoke 

against the detachment of CPN land, the commissioners cast a 3–3 tie. Given that 

a majority is needed to affirm such measures, the detachment petition failed. 

The past year’s tension has done little for either the city or the tribe. Citizen Potawatomi Nation has attempted to play by the town’s rules in order to resolve the 

situation. At every turn the tribe’s efforts have been met with hostility. As it became 

clear to CPN nearly one year ago, the tribe and its interests cannot receive a fair 

hearing on any matter from certain elements of Shawnee’s city government. In requesting formal detachment of what is legally its own land, Citizen Potawatomi Nation seeks to put an end to this senseless bickering. It is time to move on and forward, separately, for our shared communities. 

State of Oklahoma Attempt to Collect Unwarranted Revenue From CPN 

Citizen Potawatomi Nation collects 8.5 percent sales tax on all sales made on tribal trust land. The State of Oklahoma claims it also has the authority to tax goods 

and services on Native American federal trust land, including admissions to powwow, softballs games, golfing, on-trust consumables and HEARTH Act lease activity. 

In order force this double taxation, the State of Oklahoma has initiated the process to revoke all sales tax permits, which are necessary for liquor licenses, from all 

CPN enterprises. This action would prohibit Citizen Potawatomi Nation from selling 

alcohol at any of its enterprises, including gaming facilities, and is in violation of 

the Model Gaming Compact. 

The commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution implicitly states that only U.S. Congress can regulate areas of commerce with Indian Tribes. This sentiment was further supported by the HEARTH Act, which states that HEARTH businesses are 

only applicable to Federal law and that activities conducted under a lease of trust 

or restricted land that occur on the leased premises are not taxable by States or 

localities, regardless of who conducts the activities. 

38 

The U.S. Supreme Court also supports the right of Indian Tribes to tax by recognizing that ‘‘the power to tax is an essential attribute of Indian sovereignty because 

it is a necessary instrument of self-government and territorial management.’’ 

Merrion v. Jicarilla Apache Tribe, 455 U.S. 130, 137. 

The State of Oklahoma must recognize these pre-emptions and allow Indian 

Tribes to self-govern and create economic opportunities on trust land. 

Pottawatomie County Rural Water District 3 

The Citizen Potawatomi Nation met with City officials at Shawnee City Hall on 

February 27, 2009 in an effort to resolve the issues preventing the Nation from obtaining the water and sewer services necessary for economic development on the Nation’s trust lands. The Nation’s offer to pay for the replacement of the sewer lift station was rejected. 

In March 2010 the Citizen Potawatomi Nation signed a contract with an engineering firm to design a water, sewer and waste water treatment facility to serve the 

Tribe’s federal trust lands. 

In May 2012, the City of Shawnee sued Pottawatomie Rural Water District 3 and 

the Citizen Potawatomi Nation for providing tribal housing, buildings and enterprises on Federal trust land with water. Subsequently, the Oklahoma Department 

of Transportation has refused to grant RWD 3 additional water line permits for 

ODOT rights-of-way. 

Allowing the Shawnee Municipal Authority, or any other state or municipality, to 

dictate who can provide water to a Native American tribe on Federal trust land 

would create a veto power to tribal economic development. That cannot be tolerated. 

Contract Support Costs 

CPN has been advocating for full funding of contract support costs for nearly two 

decades. To that end, the Tribe supports a mandatory appropriation for contract 

support costs because a mandatory appropriation would remove CSC payments from 

the discretionary budget. A mandatory appropriation is therefore an effective answer to the dilemma posed by locating a legally binding obligation within an appropriation structured to address discretionary service requirements. The disastrous 

ramifications of that approach were all too visible when in FY 2014 the Indian 

Health Service was compelled to redirect some $125 million from program operations, including all of the funding which Congress had intended would restore the 

prior year’s sequester reductions. A mandatory appropriation avoids such consequences for the future, while assuring that Tribal contractors and compactors will 

be paid in full for services duly rendered to the United States. 

The Indian Employment, Training, and Related Services Demonstration Act 

The 477 Initiative has been essential for the development of effective and efficient 

tribal services to increase employment, training, and related social services in Indian Country. With the consolidation of funding streams, tribes have been using this 

initiative to reduce administrative burden and increase services to the most needy. 

This initiative has provided flexibility for tribes to tailor activities into a single program to meet the unique needs of their respective communities while still strictly 

adhering to the Government Performance Results Acts accountability standards. 

The 477 Initiative has to date received the highest OMB PART rating of any program in Indian Country. 

The Citizen Potawatomi Nation’s 477 Program has been in place since 1996. Over 

the past four years, CPN has served more than 6,000 participants through the 477 

program. Of those who had employment as their goal, 47 percent achieved unsubsidized employment. Average gain per hour was in excess of $4.29. 

The Citizen Potawatomi Nation is just one example where tribes utilize the 477 

Initiative to serve the hard-to-serve population in high unemployment areas with 

great success. The 477 Tribes are able to move tribal members from cash assistance 

programs to unsubsidized employment and self-sufficiency. These successes are 

achieved in accordance with their approved 477 Plan and accounted for in their annual reports. 

The 1992 Indian Employment, Training and Related Services Demonstration Act 

provides a critical foundation for our tribe in helping get our members, and members of other federally recognized tribes, trained and ready to join America’s diverse 

workforce. Specifically, it allows tribes like the Citizen Potawatomi Nation to tailor 

activities into a single program that meets our specific community’s needs. It also 

reduces administrative redundancies while keeping us in compliance with government accountability standards. Proving what an excellent program it is, the 477 Initiative received the highest OMB PART rating of any in Indian Country. 

The 477 tribes across this country agree with Senator Lisa Murkowski and Senator Mark Begich in pushing Congress to amend the original law in order for the 

39 

law to reach its full potential. We ask that Congress reaffirm its intent to adhere 

to the original spirit of the law, and allow tribes to: 

• Continue to receive funds through contracts and amendments in line with the 

Indian Self-Determination Act 

• Not require tribes to maintain separate records 

• Combine and integrate federal funds to achieve the goals set forth in the original law. 

• Allocate funds directly to support economic development and create jobs. 

• Expand the scope of the original project by including competitive, formula, block 

grant and designated funds for use by employment and training programs. 

• Expand employment, training and related socials service programs currently 

used from other federal agencies. 

• Address the timely approval of 477 Plans, regulation waivers and dispute resolution so there are clear rules when disagreements arise about the interpretation of the 477 Act. 

• Insert provisions allowing a tribe to utilize their negotiated indirect cost rate, 

rather than applying separate administrative caps to each funding source if a 

tribe should so choose. 

Tribal Self-Governance Legislation: Title IV Amendments 

Shortly after Title IV of the Indian Self-Determination Act was enacted, the DOI’s 

regulations failed to fully implement Congress’s intent. In 2000, Title V was enacted, which created a permanent Self-Governance program within HHS, and which 

directly addressed many of the issues that proved to be problematic during the 

DOI’s Title IV rulemaking process. 

Today, many of the improvements and tribal authority reflected in Title V remain 

absent from Title IV. Title IV amendments have been the top legislative priority for 

the 261 Self-Governance Tribes in the DOI for more than 15 years (this was recently 

reaffirmed at the 2015 Self-Governance Strategy Session in Washington, DC, January 27, 2015). Therefore, we fully support S. 286, which would amend Title IV of 

the ISDEAA to ensure consistency and efficiency among Self-Governance. 

The key issues addressed by S. 286 are as follows: 

• Streamline the administrative responsibilities for Self-Governance Tribes with 

provisions in Title V, the IHS Self-Governance authority; 

• Establish a clear ‘‘final offer’’ process and timelines for situations when DOI and 

the Tribe are unable to agree on particular terms of a compact or funding agreement, or when DOI delays approval unreasonably; 

• Clarify and limit the reasons for which DOI may decline to enter a proposed 

agreement; 

• Protect Tribes from DOI attempts to impose unauthorized terms in compacts or 

funding agreements; 

• Provide a clear avenue of appeal and burden of proof for Tribes to challenge adverse agency decisions; 

• Clarify Tribal and federal oversight roles in construction to ensure fiscal prudence and public safety; 

• Leave unchanged the discretionary authority to compact non-BIA programs 

within DOI; and 

• Make important amendments to the self-determination contracting law, such as 

clarifying reporting requirements, rules of interpretation, and applicability of 

certain Title I provisions to Title IV agreements. 

Conclusion 

Collectively, tribal businesses and governments are the largest employers in the 

State of Oklahoma, accounting for more than 50,000 jobs. Analysis by the Steven 

C. Agee Economic Research & Policy Institute at Oklahoma City University estimated that the total tribal impact on the state was more than $10 billion in 2012. 

In addition to jobs, tribal governments help ease the burden of services on the 

state, providing funding for education, health and safety and contributing to nonprofit and community organizations. More than 50,000 families benefited from 

healthcare, meals and educational opportunities provided by CPN in 2013. 

While there are genuine differences to work out in tribal-state and tribal-city relations, it is important to remember that as neighbors, we are all in this together. 

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ernments should not be seen as threats to those at the state capitol or city hall of 

any municipality in Oklahoma. For the good of our shared communities, these 

unique partnerships should be embraced. 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MICHAEL G. ANDERSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIVE

AMERICAN CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION

Introduction 

The Native American Contractors Association (NACA) is pleased to submit testimony for the hearing ‘‘Advancing Economic Success in Indian Country.’’ This hearing fits squarely in line with the vision of NACA. NACA is a national association 

of businesses owned by tribes, Alaska Native Corporations (ANCs), and Native Hawaiian Organizations (NHOs) that utilize small business contracting programs to 

further economic development in their communities. NACA’s vision is ‘‘To advance 

the economic self-sufficiency of America’s Indigenous Peoples.’’ Small business federal contracting programs, such as the Small Business Administration’s (SBA) 8(a) 

Business Development Program are critical to advancing economic development in 

Indian Country. The Senate Committee on Indian Affairs (Committee) should continue to support, and enhance, such programs. 

Background 

The first rule of advancing economic development in Indian Country should be 

similar to that of medicine: first, do no harm. When Congress empowers Native communities with programs that work to meet the needs of those communities, those 

programs should be enhanced and protected. Additional programs are needed, but 

much can be done simply by protecting and enhancing existing programs. This includes Indian gaming and Native contracting programs. 

Native contracting programs are a valuable tool for both businesses owned by individual American Indians, Native Hawaiians, or Alaska Natives, and also for businesses owned by tribes, ANCs, and NHOs. Many communities are located in remote 

locations and lack a commercial market to support different types of economic ventures. Federal contractors are able to ‘‘go where the work is’’ and thus are not constrained geographically. This may include performing contracts in places like nearby 

military installations. It can also mean working in nearby states, or even in Washington, DC, the heart of the federal government. The SBA’s 8(a) program in particular provides resources and opportunities for Native firms. However, the program 

needed unique regulations and statutory authority to meet the specific needs and 

structures present in Indian Country. These are needs and structures that do not 

exist in the same manner as an individually-owned company may experience. Many 

of the specific rules governing community-owned entities in the program are the result of recommendations made from the Reagan Commission on Reservation Economies. Select passages of the report have been attached to this testimony to highlight 

the need and beginning of these unique provisions of the program. 

The revenue earned from these firms flows back to the Native community. Tribal 

leaders or the Board of Directors determines the best way to reinvest this revenue 

back into the community. For example, according to the report ‘‘The Economic, Social & Cultural Impacts of the Native 8(a) Program’’ commissioned by NACA in 

2008 cites that more than $1 11 million in benefits flowed to Native communities 

from the 8(a) program while impacting more than 109,000 jobs across the country. 

The impact of the program reaches far beyond the beneficiaries of the profits derived from the 8(a) program. 

Advancing the Needs of the SBA 8(a) Program in Indian Country 

NACA is making several recommendations for the Committee to consider as part 

of its work to strengthen economic development in Indian Country. These recommendations are based on policy priorities adopted by NACA’s Board of Directors. 

Parity for Tribes, ANCs, NHOs 

Congress should enact legislation to establish parity for tribes and NHOs in the 

8(a) program. The Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (ANCSA) provides that 

ANCs shall be considered economically disadvantaged for purposes of federal programs. Since this legislation only impacts Alaska Native communities, neither 

tribes, nor NHOs currently enjoy the same presumption via federal statute. The 

SBA has created regulatory direction that tribes must only prove their status one 

time and subsequent firms need not prove their economic disadvantage for certification. NHOs have yet another authority, and must overcome burdensome reviews 

of their organizations to maintain their economic disadvantage status every year. 

41 

Congress should empower tribes and NHOs by providing the same statutory presumption of economic disadvantage. 

Native American Set-Aside 

The Federal Government must currently set aside 23 percent of its federal procurement dollars for small businesses. There are subsequent set-aside programs 

under this umbrella, such as socially disadvantaged businesses, HUBZone, womanowned small businesses, Service Disabled Veteran-Owned Small Businesses, etc. 

Native contractors can be certified under these different programs, each of which 

has a specific goal associated with the program. However, there is not a single ‘‘Native American’’ set-aside program. 

There is a suite of programs that facilitate Native contracting. The 8(a) program 

has unique rules for tribes, ANCs, and NHOs but the term ‘‘Native 8(a)’’ is colloquial to describe these provisions, as there is not a specific set-aside for such entities. Tribes also can participate in Historically Underutilized Business Zones 

(HUBzone), as all reservations are considered to be part of HUBzones. 

There is also the Buy Indian Act and the Indian Incentive program. However, 

each of these programs are limited in scope. The Buy Indian Act only applies to the 

Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and the Indian Health Service (IHS). Similarly, the 

Department of Defense (DOD) is the only agency for which Congress provides funding for the Indian Incentive Program. Each of these programs contains further 

shortcomings. For example, other agencies or bureaus outside or even within the 

Department of the Interior (DOI) that directly touch Native Americans are not required to set-aside contracts for Native firms. The Office of Special Trustee, for example, is not required to use the Buy Indian set-aside, despite its mission being tied 

directly to Native Americans. Funding for the Indian Incentive Program is $15 million each year. While this generates substantial subcontracting revenue for Native 

subcontractors, there is a growing backlog of claims for incentive payments to prime 

contractors utilizing the program. Lengthy delays, uncertain appropriations and the 

growing backlog create disincentives for prime contractors to maintain relationships 

with Native subcontractors. 

While there are several programs that are available to Native contractors, they 

do not fit well together, nor are they designed for maximum use by Native firms. 

They represent a disjointed approach to address economic development through federal contracting. These past efforts should be commended, but the time has come 

for a comprehensive program. Congress should enact legislation that creates a specific set-aside, providing specific focus to advance economic development in Indian 

Country. This could be done under the government-to-government relationship, 

which provides a unique legal basis for such a program. Creating a Native American 

set-aside would facilitate more economic opportunities for Native firms. 

Conclusion 

I appreciate the opportunity to submit written testimony. NACA’s members play 

a key role to advance the economic interests of Indian Country. As the Committee 

works on legislation to this end, NACA urges the Committee to facilitate and enhance Native contracting programs, and look to the future by establishing a Native 

American set-aside program. We look forward to being a partner with you in this 

endeavor. 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. TERRI PARTON, PRESIDENT, WICHITA AND AFFILIATED

TRIBES

Dear Senator Lankford: 

My name is Terri Parton and I am the President of the Wichita and Affiliated 

Tribes. I thank you for this opportunity to provide written testimony on behalf of 

the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes. I applaud the efforts that have been made during 

this administration to advance economic development, selfgovernance and self-determination. However, while many tribes across the country and on the other side of 

Oklahoma see many of the benefits of the great things that this administration is 

doing to promote economic development, self-governance and self-determination, the 

tribes in the southwest part of Oklahoma have not been able to fully take advantage 

of these opportunities due to our unique land situations and the inability to get the 

needed legal infrastructure in place to move forward. Our tribes on this side of the 

state have struggled for many years. A lot of the issues revolve around the inability 

for our tribes to successfully succeed at economic development to provide for our 

people. This inability leads to internal tribal tunnoil which hinders the economic future for our tribes here. 

42 

I would like to thank you for having the Oversight Field Hearing on ‘‘Advancing 

Economic Success in Indian Country.’’ While we appreciate the hearing there were 

some views that were expressed by the panel that we don’t necessarily agree with. 

Some of those issues are addressed in this testimony. Below are some successes, 

struggles and barriers that we face. 

History 

The Wichita and Affiliated Tribes is the only tribe that claims Oklahoma as its 

aboriginal homeland. We were always here. Our people once roamed from the area 

around Wichita, Kansas, Oklahoma and all the way down to around Waco, Texas. 

While we used to inhabit these lands freely, in the late 1800s we were forced to 

move to this reservation area that we now share with the Caddo and Delaware 

Tribes. Jointly we have over 2,500 acres of land. The Wichita and Affiliated Tribes 

does have a constitution and our governing document is a Governing Resolution. We 

have a tribal council that is made up seven elected officials who are authorized to 

transact business on behalf of the Tribe. 

Economic Successes 

The Wichita and Affiliated Tribes has enjoyed some limited economic success over 

the years. The limited success that we have achieved had many hurdles that continue today as we continue to diversify our tribal economy. 

8a Companies 

In 2003, the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes became 51 percent owner of Anadarko 

Industries. Anadarko Industries is an 8(a) company that is located in Houston, 

Texas. Anadarko has seen much success and graduated from the 8(a) program in 

2012. 

In 2011, the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes became 51 percent owner of Wichita 

Tribal Enterprises which was a duplication of Anadarko Industries. Wichita Tribal 

Enterprises has faced many hurdles. In 2015, the Tribe under the Wichita Tribe Industrial Development Commission purchased the remaining 49 percent ownership 

in the company and now is the 100 percent owner. 

Sugar Creek Casino 

In 2008, the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes opened the Sugar Creek Casino in Hinton, Oklahoma. 

Wichita Tribal Smoke Shop 

In 2008, the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes opened the Wichita Tribal Smoke Shop 

in Hinton, Oklahoma. 

Wichita Travel Plaza 

In 2013, the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes opened the Wichita Travel Plaza in 

Anadarko, Oklahoma. 

In addition, the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes has a Wichita Housing Authority, 

Wichita Tribe Industrial Development Commission, Wichita Tax Commission, Wichita Gaming Commission and Wichita Tribe Sports Commission. We also recently 

purchased a hotel. 

Economic Struggles and Barriers and Challenges 

WCD Lands-Land Exchange and Consolidation 

WCD stands for the Wichita, Caddo and Delaware Tribes. While we read many 

great stories about tribes all over the United States and the Department of Interior 

consolidating and restoring land back to tribes, we wonder why this cannot be done 

for our Tribe, the Delaware Nation and the Caddo Nation. Thousands of acres of 

our aboriginal homelands taken during allotment were later returned to joint trust 

ownership among three separate tribes. These lands are virtually useless to us without agreement among each of the three tribes and approval of Mt United States. 

In 2007, the Tribes agreed to exchange some of the trust lands among themselves 

so that each would have individual control of some acreage. The tribes have resolutions approved to set-aside land for each tribe. We have tried continuously since 

2007 to consolidate 600 of the jointly shared lands into parcels for each tribe so each 

tribe would have lands to exercise jurisdiction, exercise self-governance, exercise 

selfdetermination and pursue economic development. We spend all of our resources 

on attorney fees because we can’t get a decision out of our Regional Office. We truly 

believe that the Secretary has the authority to approve this land exchange that benefits all three tribes. Yet, for over eight years since the resolutions were passed and 

with the emphasis on trust acquisitions and land consolidation in other parts of the 

Country, we still sit here hoping that one day we will enjoy the benefits that other 

43 

tribes have who don’t have to worry about jurisdictional issues because they share 

lands. 

WCD-Lease With the Regional Office 

WCD Enterprises, Inc. has had a lease that has expired that the Southern Plains 

Regional Office leases that we have been unable to get a new lease with. The lease 

expired many years ago and then there were one year renewals made. We would 

like to get the lease issue resolved. It is part of our economic development. The lease 

has remained at the same rate while costs have gone up to maintain it. 

Land Acquisitions 

We read many great stories about tribes all over the United States and even other 

areas in Oklahoma approving their land into trust applications. However, we find 

here that it is very difficult to acquire land into trust, particularly for direct service 

tribes in the Southern Plains Region. Processes that should take a few weeks, regularly take years to accomplish. Trust applications are often deemed incomplete or 

removed from consideration based upon the errors or ever changing requirements 

of BIA personnel. It seems that where the effort in other areas of the Country is 

to find ways to streamline the approval process, the effort here is to delay the approval process. 

HEARTH Act 

We were pleased to be one of the first Tribes to obtain federal approval of a tribal 

leasing ordinance and appreciate your assistance. However, if we are unable to acquire and govern our own trust lands exclusively, and develop the corporate infrastructure to manage them, I am afraid the tribal leasing ordinance will be of little 

use to us. That should not be the case. We urge you to focus manpower here in 

Western Oklahoma to resolving these issues immediately so that we and our neighbor tribes can enjoy the same exciting new opportunities that those elsewhere enjoy. 

Federal Charter 

In December of 2012, the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes submitted a Federal Charter. Contrary to the current goals and priorities to improve and enhance economic 

development in Indian country, the BIA has refused to approve our federal charter. 

The BIA insists we must hold a secretarial election, even though the law does 

pennits all tribes to adopt a charter the way we have, and even though the BIA 

has permitted our neighboring tribes to do so. We urge you to find out why tribes 

cannot get Federal Charters approved in this area. 

Thank you again for allowing the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes to submit written 

testimony. 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF JAMES K. BYRD, MEMBER, MUSCOGEE (CREEK) NATION

Senator Lankford 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide comment on ‘‘Advancing Economic Success in Indian Country.’’ I am pleased that this Committee is elevating the issue 

of economic success in Indian Country. 

Clearly, elements for success were revealed in the live testimony by the witnesses 

that testified at Anadarko High School. Success can be enhanced by using programs 

from government entities such as the Small Business Administration and using the 

expertise of local technical institutes. Individual desire is also imperative in order 

to capitalize on economic opportunity which presents itself in a myriad of ways. 

Business preparation is essential but it is business opportunity that is of more 

value. It is in this light that I submit my comment. 

Leases on federal lands, both on-shore and off-shore, for mineral exploration, recovery, transport and distribution that are administered by the Federal Government, i.e. the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), should contain a utilization 

clause exclusive to Indian business. The clause should direct the leasee to utilize 

Indian businesses to the maximum extent possible. This clause should be similar 

to the small business utilization clause in government contracts. The leasee should 

be required to develop an Indian business utilization plan. In addition, the leasee 

should be required to report the utilization rate of Indian business to the BLM. In 

turn, the BLM can use this data for enforcement of the clause. 

The mineral resources of this country have much value. Indian businesses have 

successfully participated in this industry, but are not widely entrenched in this vast 

market. This business opportunity has great promise for advancing economic success in Indian Country. As the Federal Government receives large lease payments 

and mineral royalties, so to can Indian businesses flourish from the opportunity to 

44 

participate in these federally controlled endeavors. This approach is not designed to 

control the mineral exploration industry, but to enlighten them on the need to be 

inclusive of the original mineral owners of this great country. 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF GEORGE P. TIGER, PRINCIPAL CHIEF, MUSCOGEE (CREEK) 

NATION


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* The information referred to has been retained in Committee files and can be found at 

http://www.ncai.org/MSP–15–008lReclandlReso.pdf 

JOINT PREPARED STATEMENT OF KAY BILLS, OSAGE; PAMELA STANDING, CHEROKEE; 

AND KRISTI DANIELS-LONG, COEUR D’ ALENE

Chairman Lankford, thank you for hosting the first field hearing on achieving economic success in Indian Country. That is an innovation in itself. 

As individual entrepreneurial business owners, we are often overlooked by federal 

committees that focuses exclusively on tribes, which we agree is a government-togovernment relationship and certainly appropriate. However, we believe that a critical and core element of achieving economic success will depend on building, not just 

tribal businesses, but strong American Indian & Alaska Native entrepreneurs at the 

same time. 

This white paper is a result of a growing coalition of American Indian & Alaska 

Native businesses, higher education, and professional organizations working together to see the long delayed implementation of the Buy Indian Act of 1910. We 

have traveled to Minnesota and New Mexico. We have presenting our information 

in Oklahoma. This work is a compilation of many activities over the past two years. 

We believe the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Indian Heath Service are aligned 

much like the United States Department of Veterans Affairs. The model for delivery 

of service to American Indian & Alaska Native, like the model for our Nations Veterans, is in distress. The past and future investment by the government to our communities must be maximized. We feel that to sustain any progress in the face of 

constrained budget an examination from top to bottom of the procurement practices 

of these two agencies is critical. 

We share your concerns about federal budgets and believe that empowering American Indian & Alaska Native companies to participate in delivery of goods and services to our own communities is a positive step. Like our Veterans, American Indian 

& Alaska Native businesses, tribal or individual, know best how to serve our tribal 

members. 

We submit 7 Steps to Transparency, Accountability & Economic Parity for your 

consideration. * 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF JAMES RAY, PROJECT DIRECTOR, MBDA BUSINESS

CENTER—TULSA, NATIVE AMERICAN AND ALASKA NATIVE PROGRAM

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didates for an expanded guarantee program that would ensure that the investment 

was protected beyond the collateral of the real estate. Tribes with U.C.C. and the 

ability to lease could attract projects to land either in trust or owned fee simple with 

the added step of a loan guarantee pool enhanced through re-insurance to mitigate 

potential losses. Underwriting for such projects would need to be open to adequate 

due diligence, but would create an attractive model for Foreign Direct Investment 

and Domestic Direct Investment in Indian Country. This could alleviate issues that 

might prevent New Market Tax Credit investors to get involved in a project as well. 

This concept could be utilized with adequate fees derived from the project to administer and create a ‘‘no cost to the government’’ model. The current BIA Loan 

Guarantee could be authorized for a larger allocation to enhance opportunities for 

tribes to develop opportunities not previously covered. The amount of authorization 

should be at least 1 billion dollars as opposed to the current 100 million dollar level. 

If the United States holds the land in trust for the tribes, then they can only remove 

barriers and lay the ground work for ensuring the highest and best use with the 

greatest benefit to the tribe and the community members of the tribe. 

Some level of fast tract for regulations would need to be implemented to avoid 

excessive delays. 

There are 56,000,000 acres of land held in trust and fee simple by tribes in the 

United States. 

A portion of the incentive to locate projects in Indian Country would be to fund 

the guarantee from the tribe. The resulting jobs and economic activity could make 

the investment from the tribal perspective attractive. 

Future federal settlements to tribes could very easily include a provision to further investment opportunities in Indian Country by providing funds to self-insure 

economic development projects that create good jobs and further wealth creation for 

tribal members. 

The concept would be similar to Private Mortgage Insurance. In this case maybe 

Private Lender Insurance. The guarantee could be shared between government and 

re-insurance with premiums being collected by both. 

Other Opportunities to Alleviate Barriers From the Federal Agencies 

• Define and streamline the process to put land in trust for tribes. 

• Define and develop ‘‘highest and best use’’ parameters to ensure that trust land 

is allowed to be developed by a tribe with minimum restriction. 

• Institute SBA advocates for new 8(a) firms to ensure that they don’t burn 

through 1–2 years of eligibility with minimal or no results. Strong training up 

front with maximum exposure and advocacy from BDS and PCR. Estimates 

have been put forth that as much as 85 percent of 8(a) firms never get a contract during their 9 year program. 

• Tie performance ratings and associate bonuses and raises and promotion in the 

contracting community to meeting goals set forth in the Small Business Act. Institute accountability that is simple and measurable. 

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