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95–802 2015

S. HRG. 114–122 

DYNAMIC SCORING: HOW WILL IT AFFECT FISCAL 

POLICYMAKING? 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

JOINT ECONOMIC COMMITTEE 

CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

JULY 28, 2015 

Printed for the use of the Joint Economic Committee 

( 
(II) 

JOINT ECONOMIC COMMITTEE 

[Created pursuant to Sec. 5(a) of Public Law 304, 79th Congress] 

SENATE 

DANIEL COATS, Indiana, Chairman 

MIKE LEE, Utah 

TOM COTTON, Arkansas 

BEN SASSE, Nebraska 

TED CRUZ, Texas 

BILL CASSIDY, M.D., Louisiana 

AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota 

ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania 

MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico 

GARY C. PETERS, Michigan 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

KEVIN BRADY, Texas, Vice Chairman 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

ERIK PAULSEN, Minnesota 

RICHARD L. HANNA, New York 

DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona 

GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York, Ranking 

JOHN DELANEY, Maryland 

ALMA S. ADAMS, PH.D., North Carolina 

DONALD S. BEYER, JR., Virginia 

VIRAJ M. MIRANI, Executive Director 

HARRY GURAL, Democratic Staff Director 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS OF MEMBERS

Hon. Daniel Coats, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Indiana .............................. 1 

Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney, Ranking Member, a U.S. Representative from 

New York .............................................................................................................. 10 

WITNESSES

Hon. Phil Gramm, Ph.D., Former Chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee 

on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs and Senior Advisor, U.S. Policy 

Metrics, Washington, DC ..................................................................................... 3 

Dr. Kevin A. Hassett, Director of Economic Policy Studies, American Enterprise Institute, Washington, DC ......................................................................... 5 

Dr. John W. Diamond, Edward A. and Hermena Hancock Kelly Fellow in 

Public Finance, Baker Institute of Public Policy, Rice University, Houston, 

TX .......................................................................................................................... 7 

Mr. John L. Buckley, Former Chief of Staff to the Joint Committee on 

Taxation, Washington, DC .................................................................................. 8 

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD

Prepared statement of Hon. Daniel Coats ............................................................. 32 

Prepared statement of Hon. Kevin Brady ............................................................. 32 

Prepared statement of Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney ................................................. 33 

Chart titled ‘‘Corporate Tax Revenue as a Share of GDP Near Historical 

Lows’’ .............................................................................................................. 36 

Chart titled ‘‘Total Tax Revenue as a Share of GDP’’ ................................... 37 

Prepared statement of Hon. Phil Gramm .............................................................. 38 

Prepared statement of Dr. Kevin A. Hassett ........................................................ 40 

Prepared statement of Dr. John W. Diamond ....................................................... 49 

Prepared statement of Mr. John L. Buckley ......................................................... 60 

Report titled ‘‘Dynamic Scoring and Infrastructure Spending’’ by Douglas 

Holtz-Eakin and Michael Mandel submitted by Vice Chairman Kevin 

Brady ..................................................................................................................... 69 

Report titled ‘‘House ‘Dynamic Scoring’ Rule Likely Will Mean More Tax 

Cuts—Not More Information’’ by Chye-Ching Huang and Paul N. Van 

de Water submitted by Representative Carolyn B. Maloney ........................... 87 

Questions for the Record for Dr. Diamond and Mr. Buckley and Responses 

submitted by Representative Maloney ............................................................... 92 

(1) 

DYNAMIC SCORING: HOW WILL IT AFFECT 

FISCAL POLICYMAKING? 

TUESDAY, JULY 28, 2015 

CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES, JOINT ECONOMIC COMMITTEE, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 2:02 p.m. in Room 216 

of the Hart Senate Office Building, the Honorable Dan Coats, 

Chairman, and Kevin Brady, Vice Chairman, presiding. 

Representatives present: Brady, Paulsen, Hanna, Schweikert, 

Grothman, Maloney, Delaney, and Beyer. 

Senators present: Coats, Cruz, Cassidy, Klobuchar, and Peters. 

Staff present: Cary Elliott, Connie Foster, Harry Gural, Colleen 

Healy, Jason Kanter, David Logan, Kristine Michalson, Viraj 

Mirani, Thomas Nicholas, Aaron Smith, Sue Sweet, and Phoebe 

Wong. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL COATS, CHAIRMAN, A 

U.S. SENATOR FROM INDIANA 

Chairman Coats. The Committee will come to order. Members 

will be joining us. We are just finishing up on our caucus luncheons, and I am told the House has some votes but they will be 

drifting in also. 

We want to start. We have got a terrific panel in front of us, and 

we want to welcome our witnesses, including my former colleague 

and very good friend, Former Senator Phil Gramm, who I am not 

used to seeing on the other side of this dias. But I thank all of our 

witnesses for being here today to discuss the concept of dynamic 

scoring, a topic that has been much debated since the House 

passed a rule earlier this year requiring the Congressional Budget 

Office and the Joint Committee on Taxation to use dynamic scoring 

when evaluating, ‘‘major legislation.’’ 

The Joint Committee on Taxation and Congressional Budget Office have long provided lawmakers with estimates of spending and 

revenue changes that would occur should a bill become law. 

For decades, however, these scores, as they are known, have 

largely ignored the largest driver of surpluses and deficits: economic growth. 

That is because the current method of estimation, known as 

‘‘static scoring,’’ does not reflect the reality that the economy can 

grow or contract as a result of public policy. Most notably, it does 

not account for the massive effects a policy can have on labor supply or private investment, two of the largest drivers of the U.S. 

economy. 
2 

Ignoring these effects leaves lawmakers unable to debate legislation with all available information at their disposal. 

While dynamic scoring has been debated for decades, it is no 

longer as it has been previously described, ‘‘voodoo economics.’’ In 

fact, advances in computer technology and economics have finally 

brought us from the question of ‘‘Can dynamic scoring be done?’’ to 

the answer of ‘‘Yes, and here’s how.’’ 

We have the rare opportunity today to hear from those who have 

been in the trenches of this debate as lawmakers, Congressional 

staffers, and academics. 

I would like now—well, I was going to recognize Ranking Member Maloney for her opening statement, but let me turn to the brief 

introduction of our witnesses today. 

We are really privileged to have people here who have long-time 

experience, and we are really looking forward to hearing what their 

thoughts are as we go forward with the enormous impact for decisions lawmakers have to make if we get this right. 

Senator Gramm served 6 years in the U.S. House of Representatives, and 18 years in the United States Senate. His legislative 

record includes landmark bills like the Gramm-Latta budget, which 

reduced federal spending, rebuilt national defense, and mandated 

the Reagan tax cut. And, the Gramm-Rudman Act which placed the 

first binding constraints on federal spending. 

As Chairman of the Banking Committee, Senator Gramm steered 

legislation modernizing banking, insurance, and securities law 

which had been languishing in Congress for 60 years. 

Those are but a few of the many substantive issues and reforms 

that Senator Gramm introduced and brilliantly managed to complete in his 24 years of service in both the House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate. 

Dr. Kevin Hassett is the State Farm James Q. Wilson Chair in 

American Politics and culture, and Director of Economic Policy 

Studies at the American Enterprise Institute. Before joining AEI, 

Dr. Hassett was a senior economist at the Board of Governors of 

the Federal Reserve System, and an Associate Professor of Economics and Finance at Columbia Business School in New York. 

Dr. John Diamond is the Edward A. and Hermena Hancock Kelly 

Fellow in Public Finance—boy, this is a mouthful here—at the 

Baker Institute, Adjunct Professor of Economics at Rice University, 

and CEO of Tax Policy Advisors LLC. His current research focuses 

on the economic effects of corporate tax reform, the economic and 

distributional effects of fundamental tax reform in individual portfolio allocation in the 2000s, and various other tax policy issues. He 

is co-author of ‘‘The Fundamental Tax Reform: Issues, Choices, and 

Implications,’’ a former editor for the National Tax Journal, and 

has served as staff on the Joint Committee on Taxation from 2000 

to 2004. So welcome back, and sitting—there you are—sitting at 

the table, rather than back here. 

And finally, John Buckley has advised senior members of Congress on tax legislation, and written extensively on the subject. His 

career as a Congressional staffer spanned over 35 years, most recently serving as Chief Democrat Tax Counsel for the House Ways 

and Means Committee until his retirement in 2010. He also served 

as Chief of Staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation; and before 
3 

that, Assistant Legislative Counsel on the House Legislative Counsel’s office. Off the Hill he has been an Adjunct Professor at 

Georgetown University Law Center for the last several years. 

You know, I might take a little liberty here, Dr. Cassidy, if there 

are a few opening remarks you want to make, I am happy to do 

that. Otherwise, we will turn to our witnesses. 

Dr. Cassidy. I am ready for the witnesses. 

Chairman Coats. All right. Senator Gramm, you are on. 

[The prepared statement of Chairman Coats appears in the Submissions for the Record on page 32.] 

STATEMENT OF HON. PHIL GRAMM, Ph.D., FORMER CHAIRMAN 

OF THE U.S. SENATE COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, 

AND URBAN AFFAIRS; SENIOR ADVISOR, U.S. POLICY 

METRICS, WASHINGTON, DC 

Dr. Gramm. Well, Mr. Chairman, first I am very happy to be 

here. I am especially honored to testify before your committee. We 

served for many years in the Senate together, and I appreciate you 

affording me this opportunity. 

I also need to mention that the Vice Chairman of the Committee, 

Kevin Brady, is an old friend of mine from Texas. 

Let me say that when I was in Congress I spent a lot of time 

working on issues related to the economy and the budget. And 

there may be people who have looked at more budget numbers 

than me, and I am sure there are people who have looked at them 

with a larger knowledge base than me, but I paid very close attention to budgets when I was a Member of the House and the Senate. 

The one thing that I discovered that is irrefutable is that the 

general condition of the economy overwhelms everything else. Over 

and over again if you study these budget numbers, you’ve got to 

conclude that we take actions to raise taxes, to cut taxes, to increase spending, to reduce spending and almost every member argues for every program they are for that it is going to be good for 

the economy. But the bottom line is, the changes in the economy 

swamp even the largest legislative change that we make. 

So obviously one of the objectives that I have always felt that we 

needed to have was to find a way to take into account in some 

manner the impact of our proposed policy changes on the economy 

because most of the things that we undertake we claim that we are 

trying to benefit the economy, whether it is an increase in expenditures on some government program, or whether it is cutting taxes, 

the objective that is presented in the debate is almost always: this 

is going to be good for the American economy, good for working 

people. And yet we, for all practical purposes, have had no consistent ability to make even a broad estimate of what the impact 

was going to be. 

It seems to me that there are three conditions that ought to be 

met for using dynamic scoring. And let me make it clear, I am not 

talking about dynamic scoring as a substitute for static scoring. 

I think we do an excellent job in static scoring. I think the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Tax Committee have gotten 

better and better at it, but I see it as a supplement to static scoring 

because only when we bring the two together can we look at the 

cost and benefits of various policies. 
4 

So what are the three conditions that I believe should exist for 

you to use dynamic scoring? 

First, I think you have got to have a clear and consistent economic theory that the policy is going to have a substantial economic impact. 

Secondly, you have got to have some evidence that it is going to 

have an impact within the period that you are writing the budget 

for, which is generally 10 years or less. 

And finally, you need a base of information that shows that in 

the past similar policies have produced empirical evidence that 

would substantiate the claim that you are trying to make about dynamic scoring. 

I think probably one thing we would all agree on here, no matter 

what our view is, is that the burden of proof ought to fall on people 

that are arguing that we should use dynamic scoring. Let me talk 

very briefly about two cases. 

I want to talk about the Republican and President Clinton’s bipartisan agreement to balance the budget, cut the capital gains tax 

rate, and increase the family tax credit. 

The argument here is that the evidence is overwhelming. You 

had an estimate by the Congressional Budget Office for the five 

years after the proposal went into effect. When the five years had 

ended, we had actually seen GDP go up by $2.4 trillion above the 

CBO projection. That would be $4.7 trillion today. 

It made up $8,609 over the five-year period for every man, 

woman, and child in America. This was a significant policy change. 

And revenues rose by over a trillion dollars during this period. And 

so I think the evidence is pretty strong that any effort to control 

spending as a means to balance the budget, especially if it entails 

long-term policy changes like entitlement reform, should be scored 

dynamically, and based on the evidence of the Clinton era the scoring should be substantial. 

Finally, I think there is strong evidence to substantiate the claim 

that a revenue-neutral tax reform proposal, if it lowers marginal 

rates and eliminates inefficiency in the system by the elimination 

of deductions and subsidies, that there is evidence that that has 

produced strong economic results. 

Everybody forgets that by 1988, when the full rate reductions of 

tax reform kicked in, we were deep into the recovery. It was already one of the longest recoveries of the post-war era, and a third 

longer than the average recovery had been in the post-war period. 

And yet, GDP grew by $1 trillion during the first two years after 

the full tax cut. 

GDP went up by over $1,100 per person, and taxes rose by what 

today would be about $80 billion a year. So I think there is evidence in these two bipartisan cases that dramatic action on the deficit, or a revenue-neutral tax reform if it substantially lowers rates 

and makes the system more efficient, that in those two cases that 

we should strongly look at dynamic scoring. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Gramm appears in the Submissions for the Record on page 38.] 

Chairman Coats. Senator Gramm, thank you. 

Dr. Hassett. 
5 

STATEMENT OF DR. KEVIN A. HASSETT, DIRECTOR OF ECONOMIC POLICY STUDIES, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, WASHINGTON, DC 

Dr. Hassett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Members of the 

Committee. 

My written testimony, which I guess is perhaps way too long, 

discusses the likely scale of economic impact of a significant tax reform, and gives actually some mathematical analysis of how wrong 

a static score can be, and for a typical capital income tax reform 

I discuss evidence that we could expect the static score to be off by 

about a factor of two. 

And so then the question is: Should we adopt dynamic scoring as 

part of the budget and fiscal policy process? And in the rest of my 

testimony I discuss those issues, and that is what I will focus on 

in my oral remarks. 

Dynamic scoring is not an unprecedented move for the government. Many branches of government must make forecasts in order 

to fulfill their statutory mandates. Even those forecasts are by 

their nature uncertain. 

The Federal Reserve, for instance, must formulate monetary policy in the face of macro economic conditions that remain uncertain 

in perpetuity, albeit to varying degrees. Its members regularly document their own forecasts, and Federal Reserve policy is set with 

an eye toward the impact that interest rate changes would have on 

the economy. 

The reliance of the Federal Reserve on economic models to set 

monetary policy is not controversial, nor a partisan issue. The absence of controversy regarding that reliance reveals a logical problem facing those who would dispute the usefulness of dynamic scoring for fiscal policy. For example, many tax reforms influence the 

economy by changing the cost of capital, a variable that depends 

on expected tax rates, depreciation rates, inflation, and the interest 

rate. 

The Fed tracks the economic impact of interest rate changes in 

part through the model of the cost of capital which influences business investments and other decisions. 

An identical change in the cost of capital can be generated either 

through a change in the interest rate or through a change in tax 

rates. The argument that it is acceptable to model the effects of an 

interest rate change in one quarter of the government with such 

a model but not to model the effects of the tax rate change in another corner of the government strikes me as simply illogical. 

Though the context of dynamic scoring and the context of monetary policy certainly are very different, in both cases the proper responses for the forecast incorporate a nonpartisan staff’s best judgment of what the economic analysis shows. 

The uncertainty economists face when evaluating fiscal policy is 

not greater than the uncertainty that they face when evaluating 

monetary policy. If we use models for one application, we can use 

models for both. 

As does the Fed in its analysis of economic conditions, so should 

the staff of the Joint Tax Committee and others tasked with dynamic scoring proposals incorporate sensitivity analysis, a range of 

perspectives, and the best thinking of the academic community. 
6 

If there are many available models for a specific question, the 

staff should evaluate the broad range of them and then come to a 

considered judgment regarding the relative weights of the different 

results. 

It is worth underscoring that this leaves discretion in the hands 

of the Joint Tax Committee staff, rather than any one model, in 

recognition of the necessity of human judgment in formulating 

views based on economic models, rather than giving one specific 

model the final word. 

The last part of my testimony highlights a recent development 

that is at a pretty advanced stage at the American Enterprise Institute where we’ve thought very long and hard about what it will 

take for dynamic scoring to be widely accepted and also fully transparent. 

And we have set up something that we call the ‘‘Open Source 

Policy Center’’ where we have developed two types of models. One 

is the type of model that draws on individual income tax data and 

scores tax proposals on a static basis in a way that is very, very 

similar to the types of scores that you get from the Joint Tax Committee now. 

And second, in collaboration with the BYU Macroeconomics and 

Computational Laboratory and professors from BYU and MTSU, 

we have developed a dynamic model of the economy which we have 

bridged to the static model, and we have got a number of collaborators all around the country and data users that are already using 

these models. 

They are fully open source, and every single assumption that 

anyone could make can be tested and sensitivity analysis can be 

performed. 

It is our view that as we move toward dynamic scoring that what 

we need to do is think of ways that we can take the academic community and connect them to the policy community in a fully transparent way. And at AEI we have made a large commitment over 

the last few years to develop a fully open source model that can be 

accessed by Congressional staffers and even members themselves. 

We have got a Web interface to make it easy to use. 

We hope that the OSPC, the Open Source Policy Center, evinces 

a level of transparency and technical rigor that serves as an example for how dynamic scoring should proceed going forward. 

I think that it can be extremely productive to help us think about 

policy if we see what the Joint Tax Committee or the CBO’s judgment about what the dynamic score is, and we know why they 

made the judgment that they did, and we can test our own judgment against it. 

Congress and the United States would benefit more generally 

from dynamic scoring. Much work remains to be done in fleshing 

out exactly how such a system of dynamic scoring is going to work 

in practice, but the obstacles to transitioning to a world where it 

is done are not insurmountable. In fact, there is no reason to delay 

the beginning of the implementation. 

Thank you, Senator. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Hassett appears in the Submissions for the Record on page 40.] 

Chairman Coats. Dr. Hassett, thank you. 
7 

Dr. Diamond. 

STATEMENT OF DR. JOHN W. DIAMOND, EDWARD A. AND 

HERMENA HANCOCK KELLY FELLOW IN PUBLIC FINANCE, 

BAKER INSTITUTE OF PUBLIC POLICY, RICE UNIVERSITY, 

HOUSTON, TX 

Dr. Diamond. Chairman Coats, Ranking Member Maloney, and 

Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to present 

my views on the importance of dynamic analysis and dynamic scoring. 

Let me begin by reviewing the most recent budget projections. 

CBO projects that under the extended baseline by 2040 revenues 

will be 19.4 percent of GDP, as opposed to 17.4 percent over the 

last 40 years; while spending will increase to 25.3 percent of GDP, 

as opposed to 20.1 percent over the last 40 years. 

Clearly we have a spending problem. This implies that in 2040 

the deficit would be 5.9 percent of GDP, and the federal debt would 

be 103 percent of GDP. But this projection is far from certain. 

Under CBO’s alternative fiscal scenario, the federal debt is projected to reach 175 percent of GDP by 2040. There is also uncertainty regarding behavioral parameters and the underlying economic variables used in the projections. 

In addition, there is uncertainty related to the economic effects 

of enacting new policies. For example, CBO estimates that including the macro economic effects of higher marginal tax rates, larger 

deficits, larger transfer payments, and increased federal investment would increase the projected deficits in 2040 from 5.9 to 6.6 

percent. 

Currently, the economic effects of enacting new policies is not 

considered in the budget process, even though other assumptions 

in use create more uncertainty. 

Why should we use dynamic analysis? Let me propose an example. Consider two proposals. The first raises $200 billion in revenue 

by taxing capital gains and dividends and increases tax expenditures by $200 billion by expanding child credits. 

The second proposal would raise $200 billion in revenue by reducing child tax credits and reduce revenues by $200 billion by 

lowering the capital gains and dividend tax rates. The conventional 

estimates would view these two proposals as roughly equivalent. 

However, analyses by JCT, the Office of Tax Analysis, the OECD 

and myself and Alan Viard, clearly show that the first proposal 

would decrease economic growth and increase the deficits, while 

the second would increase economic growth and lead to deficit reduction. 

It is important that we account for these differences in the policymaking process. There are several important issues regarding 

how to implement dynamic analysis to improve the budget process. 

While providing a dynamic score is important, the primary goal 

of dynamic analysis should be to compare the macro economic effects of various provisions. And while examining every provision on 

its own would be impossible—we do not have enough time nor the 

resources on the staff—there are times when it makes sense to examine a single provision. 
8 

For example, JCT recently provided a dynamic analysis of the effects of permanently extending 50 percent bonus depreciation and 

found that it would increase GDP by 0.2 percent over the budget 

window. 

Another interesting study may be a look at a temporary extension of bonus depreciation and a comparison of those two policies. 

We must analyze proposals not only with positive effects, or ones 

that we expect to have positive effects, but we also need to analyze 

proposals that we expect to have negative economic effects. 

Identifying harmful proposals is just as important as identifying 

proposals that increase economic growth. Dynamic analysis should 

also examine the effects of related provisions separately for large 

policy reforms. 

For the BRT I examined the Tax Reform Act of 2014. It would 

have been very interesting to split that analysis into three separate 

analyses: one of corporate tax reform; one of a move to a territorial 

system; and one of the effects of the individual income tax reforms 

in that legislation. 

Finally, let me just say that we need to include the debt service 

cost in both the short and long run, that those effects must be considered when we’re looking at analyses of tax and spending proposals. 

It is also important to note that the macro economic aggregates 

are not the only information that we should provide to policymakers. Some measure of welfare is also important, or a measure 

of the changes in distributional effects. 

Finally, public disclosure is imperative and as much information 

as possible should be released to the public. At a minimum, enough 

information should be released so that outside entities could replicate the work. 

While dynamic analysis will provide valuable information about 

the relative economic effects of alternative policies, it will not solve 

the fiscal crisis facing the United States. Policymakers will still 

face many tough decisions in the years ahead. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Diamond appears in the Submissions for the Record on page 49.] 

Chairman Coats. Thank you. 

And, Mr. Buckley. 

STATEMENT OF JOHN L. BUCKLEY, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF 

TO THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON TAXATION, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. Buckley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member 

Maloney for the opportunity to participate in your hearing today. 

I understand that the decision to use dynamic scoring has largely 

been made by the Congress, but I believe there are still issues remaining with respect to its implementation and the interpretation 

of its results. 

First, I think that the current state of the art when it comes to 

macro economic analysis of changes in federal fiscal policy simply 

does not provide the level of certainty or consistency that is required in an official budget score. 

For example, the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office do not have common approaches to the issue 
9 

of dynamic scoring. Since both use different models and different 

sets of assumptions, the same proposal could receive dramatically 

different budget scores depending on which entity did the scoring. 

Also, it does not provide the consistency that Professor Diamond 

suggests is necessary to compare competing proposals because the 

difference in the score may only reflect which entity is scoring the 

proposal. 

Second, there are some models that I think are simply unacceptable for being used in dynamic scoring. Those models are called 

‘‘Forward-Looking Models.’’ 

They are also the models that typically produce the greatest 

growth effect. Those models have as an underlying assumption that 

the Congress will enact deficit reduction legislation in the future 

necessary to solve the budget problem that Professor Diamond so 

accurately described. 

I simply believe you cannot have the official budget score of a 

piece of legislation dependent on the assumption that Congress will 

do in the future what it is unwilling to do today—and that is, to 

enact major deficit reduction legislation. 

Also, you cannot have the Congressional staff making predictions 

of what you might do in the future on deficit reduction. So those 

types of models I think you just have to set aside and not use for 

dynamic scoring. 

Also, I think you need to understand that all of these macro economic models are mathematical formulas. They do not attempt to 

measure the impact of the tax policy on our actual economy, or 

based on actual human behavior. That would be far too complex to 

measure to reflect in a mathematical formula, no matter how complicated the formula would be. 

Therefore, they measure the impact against a hypothetical economy constructed through assumptions that are often counter-factual in the sense that they are contrary to observable facts. 

Also, the basic theory in the models assumes that increases in 

labor supply or capital, the factors of production, will automatically 

translate into greater economic growth. 

I think you have to question that theory. For example, I think 

a simple question is: What is the biggest economic challenge faced 

by this country? 

Is it lack of job opportunities that could support a middle-class 

family? 

Or is it the fact that we have too few people looking for work? 

Now I know what I think is the answer to that question. It is 

lack of job opportunities. Yet the models assume it is the lack of 

people looking for work which is the economic problem we are facing. They solve the issue of unemployment, or underemployment 

simply by assuming that it does not exist. 

Finally, Mr. Chairman, during the period after 1980 and before 

2009, we essentially ran a series of experiments on the theories underlying the dynamic scoring models. 

With one exception, the rate increases enacted in 1993, almost 

all major tax legislation was consistent with the theories that underlie these economic models. Essentially, there was a real-life experiment whether those theories were correct. The results proved 

that they were not. 
10 

The large marginal rate reductions were supposed to increase 

savings. The savings rate declined precipitously. The 1993 tax increases were supposed to reduce labor supply. Labor supply grew 

after those tax increases and reached a record in 2000. 

The 2001 rate reductions were supposed to increase labor supply. 

Labor supply began to decline. 

So there is a long history here that I think the Committee has 

to take into account and should discuss the basic underlying premises of these models. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Buckley appears in the Submissions for the Record on page 60.] 

Chairman Coats. Well thank you to our witnesses. A number 

of questions have been raised here that I look forward to having 

a discussion on. 

I deeply regret that I have a conflict with the Intelligence Committee briefing us on the Iranian Agreement that I need to go to. 

So I am going to turn over the gavel to Vice Chairman Brady in 

just a moment. 

I first want to recognize Chairwoman Maloney, the Ranking 

Member on the House side. I was hoping to delve into the relationship of monetary changes enacted by the Fed in terms of how that 

might affect the dynamic scoring model. 

As we know, that information in terms of what the Fed may be 

thinking and doing would not be available to us in terms of going 

forward. We can take some guesses, but I would hope someone 

would get into that answer. I wish I could be here. I apologize for 

having to do double duty here. 

But let me ask Congresswoman Maloney to give her opening 

statement, and then I will turn it over to Vice Chairman Brady for 

his statement, and then we will go to the questions. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CAROLYN B. MALONEY, 

RANKING MEMBER, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM NEW YORK 

Representative Maloney. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, 

and thank all of the panelists. Last month this committee held a 

hearing on so-called ‘‘fair value’’ accounting, a method of calculating the impact of federal lending programs that will make them 

appear more expensive. 

Today the Committee turns its attention to dynamic scoring, a 

method of analyzing and quantifying the budgetary impact of tax 

cuts that will make them appear less expensive. 

Both methods are very problematic and in both cases they 

change the rules of the game so my Republican colleagues can get 

the results that they want. Dynamic scoring has been conservatives’ Holy Grail for many years. This is because if tax cuts appear to cost less, it will be easier for Congress to pass more of 

them. 

But there are serious problems with dynamic scoring. One problem is that it provides results that are highly uncertain, vary widely, and could be subject to manipulation. Let’s take the example of 

former House Ways and Means Chair Dave Camp’s tax reform legislation in the last Congress. 
11 

The JCT performed a dynamic analysis to see how much additional revenue the tax plan could return to the Treasury. And it 

is up on the screen right now. They used eight different models, 

and they came up with eight different answers, varying from $50 

billion to $700 billion. The largest estimate was 14 times the size 

of the smallest estimate. And which estimate did Chairman Camp 

highlight? $700 billion, the highest one. This leads to two more serious problems with dynamic scoring. 

There is no consensus on which dynamic scoring model is the 

most appropriate. And the models rely on assumptions that are 

sometimes wildly unrealistic, as Mr. Buckley pointed out in his testimony. 

For example, one dynamic scoring model assumes that if the debt 

increases as a share of the economy future Congresses will deal 

with the problem. The model assumes that in the future there will 

be no unemployment. The fact is that with dynamic scoring budget 

analysts will be forced to choose between deeply flawed models. 

Former CBO Director Rudolph Penner has said that, and I quote, 

‘‘Dynamic scoring would force analysts to make more judgment 

calls than they do today. Quality control would be difficult, and 

that implies a high risk that ideological biases will pollute the 

analysis.’’ End quote. 

There is yet another serious issue with dynamic scoring. New 

rules require a single estimate. Until now, the Joint Committee on 

Taxation and CBO have been required at the request of the Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee to provide a range of dynamic analysis estimates to reflect the different models and assumption choices. But the new rule passed by Congressional Republicans requires JCT and CBO to provide a single revenue projection, and the estimate is official, not advisory. The example of 

Dave Camp’s bill shows that dynamic estimates for major tax bills 

can differ by hundreds of billions of dollars. If the Camp bill had 

become law and the $700 billion figure proved wrong, deficits 

would explode. 

Because the results are so unreliable, dynamic scoring will compromise the accuracy and integrity of the federal budgeting process. Former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker has said simply, and I quote, ‘‘I won’t believe the numbers.’’ End quote. 

And what happens if the markets come to doubt the integrity of 

the scoring process? Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan 

Greenspan has said that, and I quote, ‘‘Should financial markets 

lose confidence in the integrity of our budget scoring procedures, 

the rise in inflation premiums and interest rates could more than 

offset any statistical difference between so-called static and more 

dynamic scoring.’’ End quote. 

Republicans’ decisions to use dynamic scoring, a highly unrealistic and deeply flawed method, may by itself have negative consequences that overwhelm whatever positive revenue effects that 

could be gained by cutting taxes. 

There is still another problem with dynamic scoring as implemented by this Congress. It strongly biases policy towards tax cuts. 

The new rule applies dynamic scoring only to tax cuts, not to discretionary spending. 
12 

There is a broad consensus among mainstream economists that 

investments in infrastructure, education, and research and development can have a strong stimulative effect. But the new rules do not 

apply to discretionary spending. 

For this reason, these investments will seem very expensive relative to tax cuts, and Congress will be more likely to cut them. But 

does this mean that we should apply dynamic scoring to discretionary spending proposals as well? 

No. Because an accurate and impartial method of dynamic scoring remains far beyond the reach of economists and budget analysts. Until those models improve vastly, there is little justification 

for using dynamic scoring on either tax bills or spending bills. 

The dynamic scoring rule serves only one purpose. It helps Republicans reach their Holy Grail, rigging the rules so it is easier 

for Congress to cut taxes. 

Bruce Bartlett, former aide to President Reagan, put it this way: 

Dynamic scoring is, and I quote, ‘‘is not about honest revenue estimating, it’s about smoke and mirrors to institutionalize ideology.’’ 

End quote. 

I look forward to our witnesses’ testimony and answering of our 

questions. Thank you, and I yield back. 

[The prepared statement of Representative Maloney appears in 

the Submissions for the Record on page 33.] 

Vice Chairman Brady [presiding]. Thank you, Mrs. Maloney. 

I want to thank each of the witnesses for being here today. For 

the sake of time, I have an opening statement that is so compelling 

it will bring you to tears, but . . . 

[Laughter.] 

For the sake of the hearing, I will just submit it for the record. 

[The prepared statement of Vice Chairman Brady appears in the 

Submissions for the Record on page 32.] 

And I will point out that I was involved for the past three years 

in Former Chairman Camp’s tax draft proposal. 

Now the reason there are a number of scoring elements is that 

the first five are the routine static scoring models that Joint Tax 

uses today, and in fact which our Democrat friends rely upon for 

all of their proposals and did so. 

The last two are dynamic scoring models which were used to 

score the economic impacts of the Comprehensive Immigration Bill, 

which our Democrat friends as well held as gospel. What Chairman 

Camp was seeking to do was really use the range of models available to Joint Tax today, but the newer, more real-life models to try 

to estimate Chairman Camp’s tax proposal. 

Senator Gramm, you have obviously a key background in economics. You have sat where we’ve sat, a leader of key fiscal solutions on budget, on taxes, on financial services. We hope to move 

tax reform that is comprehensive, that creates lower corporate 

taxes, a territorial system, lowers the disincentives for work and 

savings and investing in the United States, and do so we hope over 

the next two years or so. 

Sitting in our seats, you know, what is the single greatest benefit 

you believe policymakers can gain from dynamic scoring? Just how 

valuable is it to both sides as we weigh major fiscal issues such as 

tax reform? 
13 

Dr. Gramm. Well, Mr. Chairman, first of all I think it is unfortunate that the whole dynamic scoring debate is so focused just on 

tax cuts. 

Dynamic scoring is about trying to take into account the impact 

of economic policy adopted by Congress on the economy, and on 

revenues, and on spending. 

It is far more than just a debate about tax cuts. It is interesting, 

because Kevin made the point very convincingly to me that the 

Federal Reserve Bank relies on estimates every single day. 

All of their policies are based on dynamic scoring as to what they 

are trying to achieve. So whatever Paul Volcker said, or Alan 

Greenspan said—and I respect both of them—every day they 

worked at the Federal Reserve Bank they were dealing with dynamic scoring in trying to implement monetary policy. 

So the idea that we’ve got all these economists at the Fed—Kevin 

was there; they were better in those days—— 

[Laughter.] 

And we have got all these economists that are scoring monetary 

policy that are looking at its impact on interest rates, and growth, 

and employment, all of which are estimates, all of which are imperfect, but they use it every single day and nobody says anything 

about it. Nobody seems to think it is unreasonable, but yet the idea 

that the Congress would do it when we are changing the policies 

of the country, I think that is an unreasonable position to take. 

I think there are two cases where the empirical evidence is pretty overwhelming that government policies have in the past had 

some predictable impact on the economy and on revenues. And I 

think one of them is dramatic reductions in the federal deficit 

through spending control. 

And I don’t have any doubt whatsoever that a dramatic reform 

of entitlements that affected the long-term deficit position of the 

country would create incentives for people to invest because of enhanced confidence and to consume. So—and if you look at the Clinton–Republican Congress compromise, the five years that the program went into effect, it outperformed the economic impact estimated on a static basis by $2.4 trillion in GDP, and $1.1 trillion 

in tax collection. 

I also think that the other case where the evidence is strong is 

on the bipartisan 1986 Tax Reform Act. We were way into the recovery. The economy was getting weaker. The Congressional Budget Office was projecting a decline in the growth rate. That tax reform gave a second wind to the economy and clearly its impact was 

positive and the country benefitted from it. 

I think in those two cases, both of them were bipartisan efforts, 

that the case is pretty strong empirically for the use of dynamic 

scoring. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you, Senator. I am going to wrap 

up my time, except I want to, one, congratulate Dr. Hassett on the 

Open Source Model. I think it is critical for those who have ideas 

on how we become competitive and grow this economy to have models, to be able to plug those ideas in to look at what that impact 

could be. 
14 

A quick question for both you and Dr. Diamond. You know, the 

biggest criticism is that dynamic scoring is simply not ready. That 

somehow the technology, economic knowhow simply are not there. 

Senator Gramm made the point, you know, in the 1980s and the 

1990s, static scoring missed it by a mile. And so can you point out 

to us what advances have occurred over the past two decades that 

make this more accurate in real-life for us? 

Dr. Hassett. Thank you very much, Mr. Brady. 

And, you know, there have been, and there constantly are advances in our ability to model. But I think it is very, very important to emphasize that as policymakers what you need to do at a 

moment in time is set policy based on what the best knowledge 

that we have is. That if we had perfect knowledge, then all economists could retire and it might be a perfect world with no economists, but we are going to constantly be learning things. 

So the notion that we are going to learn more should not be an 

obstacle to using the best analysis that we have. And I can give 

an example. I actually agreed with a lot of your statement, Mrs. 

Maloney, and you raised some very important concerns. 

But let’s think about the eight different models. And I unfortunately did not see your slide ahead of time, but it looked like all 

of the estimates of the impact of the plan were that—were positive. 

And so the notion that we have eight different models with lots 

of different assumptions that assume that this responds a lot, and 

that responds a little, and the other does the opposite, and no matter how you look at it if all the models are saying that there is a 

positive effect on growth, that the dynamic score is below the static 

score, then it just does not make sense to me to say that zero is 

the right answer. 

And I envision a world where people that I have the highest regard for, like Tom Bartol or Doug Elmendorf, look at a vast amount 

of output. They look at the broad range of knowledge that we have, 

and they make a considered judgment about what the best answer 

is. 

I absolutely share your concern that if a partisan person were to 

make that judgment, then people would stop trusting it. But I 

think that that is already a problem, right? So I think that we do 

trust what CBO and JCT do right now because they’ve got such a 

strong track record of hiring nonpartisan staff. 

I do not think that allowing them to use their own economic expertise to improve their judgments is going to change that. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. 

Dr. Diamond. 

Dr. Diamond. I am not sure there are really any advancements. 

What I would point to is just a fundamental misunderstanding of 

modeling by detractors of dynamic scoring, and Mr. Buckley just 

cited two of the most fundamental. Let’s start with the forward 

looking assumption. Critics say, people cannot be forward looking, 

but I think we are all forward looking. 

Do you think about your future? Do you think about what is 

going to happen in the future? I think we all do. So when we are 

modeling, we have a choice. Do we want a model that assumes people are forward looking? Yes, we know they are going to make mistakes. But on average, their mistakes will cancel out. Some people 
15 

will assume that wages will be higher, and some people will assume they will be lower, but on average the forward looking assumption implies that people do not make the same mistake. And 

they do not make the same mistake over and over and over. 

The models Mr. Buckley would like to use, called myopic models, 

not only assume that people make the same mistake every year, 

year after year, forever; it assumes that everybody makes exactly 

the same mistake. 

That is the worst model to use in many circumstances. And he 

claims that the reason we should not use the models is because the 

assumptions of forward looking models are unrealistic. But on the 

first day of Standard Principles of Economics, I always teach the 

same thing: Class, what we are going to learn is that simplifying 

assumptions are necessary, but they are not realistic. 

What we need is a model that has predictive power, not a model 

that looks exactly like the real world. What we want is to predict 

things accurately. 

Let’s think about the most standard economic model. It assumes 

things such as perfect markets. Many buyers and sellers on both 

sides. Firms that sell perfectly identical products. No barriers to 

entry. These are unrealistic assumptions. Should we throw that 

model out? That model is the simple model of supply and demand. 

Basing arguments on assumptions you do not understand is not a 

good way to choose dynamic scoring models. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you, Dr. Diamond. 

Vice Chairman Maloney, former Chairman. 

Representative Maloney. Thank you so much, and I thank all 

of you for your comments. But I would like to ask Mr. Buckley, I 

would like to read a statement to you by Former Federal Reserve 

Chair Alan Greenspan, and I quote, ‘‘We should be especially cautious about adopting technical scoring procedures that might be 

susceptible to overly optimistic assessments of the budgetary consequences of fiscal actions.’’ End quote. 

So if we applied dynamic scoring to tax cuts, is there a risk that 

we could overestimate the government revenues? 

Mr. Buckley. 

Mr. Buckley. I believe there is. But let me first take the opportunity to respond a little bit to what Professor Diamond said. 

My main objection to forward looking models is not assumptions 

of forward looking. It is that they require an assumption by the 

modeler that the Congress will enact deficit reduction legislation in 

the future. 

They don’t score the bill before you. They score the bill before 

you assuming that you will take action that as of yet no one has 

been willing to put forward. 

But to answer your question, I think you should be conservative 

in budget estimates for the same reason that corporations are not 

permitted to take into account the benefits of their investments 

when reporting to shareholders. The temptation to be overly optimistic is a little too large. 

Even with independent auditors, no matter how certain the corporation is that its investment will be quite profitable, it has to 

record that investment at cost and take into account the benefits 
16 

when they accrue. And I believe that is the conservative path that 

federal budgeting should also follow. 

Representative Maloney. Okay, Dr. Diamond, would you like 

to respond to Mr. Buckley’s observations? 

Dr. Diamond. Yes, I would. The second argument is that the 

models are unreliable because they do not include rising debt levels 

that cause the economy to blow up. Let’s start with one model that 

JCT uses. The MEG model assumes that Congress is going to do 

nothing and that you are going to let the U.S. turn into Greece. 

That model is making an assumption; however, it is not a very 

likely assumption. Forward looking models assume that there is 

not a problem like in some of the conventional estimates. 

But here’s the key—— 

Representative Maloney. But if—— 

Dr. Diamond. If we use—— 

Representative Maloney. If I could respond really briefly because I have other questions, Mr. Buckley’s point was that you are 

assuming that you are going to do deficit reduction, which I have 

not seen since I have been here, and that there will be no unemployment, when of course there is unemployment. 

But I do have a question that I would like—— 

Dr. Diamond. But let me—the deficit—— 

Representative Maloney. May I ask a question about your report? 

Dr. Diamond. Sure. 

Representative Maloney. Your report on Chairman Camp’s tax 

reform plan, and on page 14, in this report that you prepared for 

the Business Roundtable on the Camp Tax Reform Plan, you said 

something very important and something I think this Committee 

should listen to very carefully and very closely, and I would like 

your response to it. 

You noted that results of any one model are, and I am quoting 

from you, that the results from any one model are, quote, ‘‘at best 

suggestive.’’ End quote. 

And what is the risk of basing revenue estimates on models that 

are at best suggestive? Is there a consensus among economists 

about which of these ‘‘at best suggestive’’ models to use? 

Dr. Diamond. I still stand behind that statement. Dynamic 

analysis is at best suggestive. We can’t produce a single number 

with perfect confidence. But, you know what, conventional analysis 

is at best suggestive. 

Those numbers, as I highlighted in my opening testimony, are 

extremely uncertain. Let’s go back to the idea that the problem is 

not forward looking models, but instead that forward looking models don’t include an exploding deficit. Let me tell you why I do not 

include exploding deficits in my models—if I include an exploding 

deficit in the model, so that we let tax rates go from 17.4 in the 

model to 19.4, and we let spending go from 20.1 to 25.3, and we 

continue to let the model explode into the out-years, do you know 

what the effect would be on the estimates of the growth effects of 

a tax cut if the model started with much higher tax rates? 

Standard economic theory says they would be much larger. If I 

start at a zero tax rate and I increased taxes by one dollar, the welfare effects are relatively small. If I started at a $10 tax rate and 
17 

increased taxes by $1, the growth effects could be a hundred times 

larger because it’s the square of the tax rate that matters. 

My assumption moderates the results. It does not produce larger 

results. It is a moderating assumption, and I know I am right. 

Representative Maloney. Okay—— 

Dr. Diamond. As far as my comment that dynamic analysis is 

‘‘at best suggestive,’’ all estimates are at best suggestive. That is 

why they are called estimates. 

Representative Maloney. So, Mr. Buckley, what are your 

thoughts about using models that are, quote, ‘‘at best suggestive’’? 

Mr. Buckley. Well I think there is a real need for macro economic analysis in the development of legislation, and I would suggest both tax and spending legislation. 

The Congress should be informed on the consequences of what 

they do. However, the best numbers are the broad range. That is 

what the Congressional Budget Office has said, that the best we 

can produce are broad ranges of estimates and you can judge. 

But again, I think that for official budget scoring purposes you 

must score the bill before you and nothing else. You should not 

score the bill before you and the assumption that you will make 

major reductions in entitlement programs in the future. I like to 

think I have some political experience, as well. I doubt that many 

Members would want to endorse an economic plan the success of 

which was dependent on identified cuts in entitlement programs— 

otherwise known as Social Security and Medicare. 

Representative Maloney. And, Mr. Buckley, forward looking 

models like Professor Diamond’s are built on the core assumption 

that future Congresses won’t allow increases in the deficit as a 

share of the economy. Is this a realistic assumption? And what are 

the implications of this? 

Mr. Buckley. Well whether it is realistic or not, it is a tremendous breach from your current practices of scoring only the legislation in front of you. And I believe you should continue that. 

The range of models results from Chairman Camp’s bill that 

$700 billion was the forward looking model, which assumed entitlement cuts. 

Representative Maloney. And, you know, how do these assumptions affect the likely accuracy of the models? For example, 

the unemployment one, that in the future there is, quote, ‘‘no unemployment,’’ or in the future that they’re going to cut, you know, 

the entitlements which has not really happened? 

Mr. Buckley. You know, this is where I think the credibility of 

the numbers are at risk. And if the credibility is lost I think there 

are potential adverse consequences that could dwarf whatever the 

difference is between static and dynamic scoring. 

Representative Maloney. My time has expired. Thank you. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. 

Senator Cassidy. 

Senator Cassidy. Mr. Buckley, now Senator Gramm mentioned 

three criteria by which dynamic scoring should be judged: macro 

economic theory conforms—empirically it has previously worked; 

and that changes would accrue within the budget window of note. 

Now do you disagree that that would be a reasonable—and the 

burden of proof is upon those who desire the dynamic scoring to 
18 

say that this is the case? Do you feel as if under that kind of guidelines dynamic scoring would not be helpful? 

Mr. Buckley. You know, I don’t disagree with Senator Gramm’s 

outline. I might disagree with ‘‘empirical evidence.’’ As I stated in 

my oral testimony—during the period between 1980 and 2009 there 

were a whole variety of tax bills enacted that were designed to increase savings and labor supply. 

Under the standard economic theory reflected in these models, 

the dramatic reduction in marginal tax rates that occurred during 

that period of time and the broad expansion of savings incentives 

should have resulted in an increase in the individual savings rate. 

It did not. 

The savings rate dropped precipitously from 1981 to 2007 before 

the recession. Also, the thought is that labor supply responds to increases or decreases in tax rates, the 1993 tax increase in marginal 

rates was followed by a slow increase in labor force participation 

rates. 

Senator Cassidy. Now that—now, again, I feel like I am speaking in front of folks who have fought these battles personally, so, 

Senator Gramm, you had mentioned that in particular, I think 

1993 actually did achieve some degree of entitlement reform with 

decreased deficit, and that was one of the preconditions that you 

labeled would lead to an expansion—i.e., a justification for dynamic 

scoring. 

Do I understand that correctly? 

Dr. Gramm. (Off microphone.) 

Senator Cassidy. Your microphone, please. 

Vice Chairman Brady. If you could get that microphone—— 

Dr. Gramm. Maybe I will do that. I want to be heard. 

[Laughter.] 

The economic growth rate was soft in the first two Clinton years. 

Positive, but soft. The dramatic change came with the bipartisan 

budget agreement and a reduction in the capital gains tax and the 

child tax credit. And it was dramatic. Even Clinton’s budget before 

the balanced budget agreement was projecting $100- to $200 billion 

deficit until Jesus came back. But what happened was that by actually taking action on a bipartisan basis that was credible—and 

people keep talking about, well, you can’t score based on what Congress might do? I never heard of anybody propose that you do that. 

Anybody that would do that is a moron, because Congress talks 

and doesn’t act. But when Congress did act, when you had an Administration and a Congress committed to a policy of controlling 

spending, you had dramatic economic results. 

And the boom of the Clinton years occurred after that program 

was adopted. And just to go back and make one other point. Dynamic scoring as we’re calling it, which means using the best information available which may not be very good but it’s the best available, is done everywhere except here. 

It is used in the private sector. It is used at the Federal Reserve 

Bank every single day. Everything they operate on is dynamic scoring. How can it make sense for them to do it and you not to do 

it? 

And finally, I believe there are some cases where you can make 

convincing arguments—and they’re not all related to tax cuts. I 
19 

think part of why everybody’s talking past each other is that this 

subject has become a surrogate for tax changes. But dynamic scoring is not just about taxes. It is about spending. It is about policy. 

It is about regulation. And the idea that we ought to just completely write it off because we are not perfect at it just violates 

every principle we see in the world around us. 

Every day we do the best we can with what we have. It is not 

perfect, and probably never will be. 

Senator Cassidy. Okay, thank you all. I yield back. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. 

Senator Klobuchar. 

Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you to all of you. Especially welcome back, Senator Gramm. 

I never got to serve with you, but thank you for being here. 

I was focused on this just from some of the things that we are 

working on right now in the Senate. We are of course working— 

we are debating the Long Term Transportation Bill, the Drive Act. 

I have been a supporter of that nearly from the beginning because 

it is a six-year bill with three years paid for. 

And I was wondering how you see a bill like that, which is just 

set pay-fors. Dynamic scoring would change the way we would look 

at that bill. 

And then secondly, another thing that we’ve been looking for in 

the long haul, which is paying for infrastructure. And Congressman 

Delaney, who is a member of this Committee, has a similar proposal to Senator Warner’s is looking at long-term tax reform with 

international tax reform, because we have a bunch of money, as 

you know, a trillion set overseas and we want to try to figure out 

a way to bring some of that back. And one thought is to link it into 

infrastructure. 

So those are two things we have been debating in the Senate, 

two different ways to handle transportation, one moving and one 

kind of sitting out there that a lot of people would like to do. 

And so I just wondered how dynamic scoring would change the 

way you would interpret those two different proposals. I guess I 

would start with you, Senator Gramm. 

Dr. Gramm. Well first of all, I think dynamic scoring would be 

looked at for every proposed change in legislation. And to the degree that you had a transportation bill that dramatically changed 

the quality of transportation in the country, I think that you could 

make an argument that it would have a macro economic effect. 

I think whether it would have an effect within the time period 

you’re budgeting, you would have to look at. But the whole purpose 

of the transportation bill is to strengthen the economy, to expand 

the Gross Domestic Product. I think it is a perfect case of something that we would look at. 

And I think you would go back and try to, for example, look at 

evidence during the Eisenhower era when we built the interstate 

highway system. I think that there might be empirical evidence out 

there that could be used. 

Senator Klobuchar. Why don’t we go to you, Mr. Buckley, and 

then work our way back. 

Mr. Buckley. I am in agreement with Senator Gramm. I think 

there is empirical evidence that infrastructure spending would be 
20 

valuable, and I think that type of information should be part of the 

legislative process. 

However, the economic models that we are talking about today 

assume that infrastructure spending has an investment return half 

of what would be available if it were not done, compared to what 

the private sector would do. 

The CBO simply assumes that all government investments have 

a rate of return equal to half the rate of return realized by a private investment. So if you use these models, which I believe substitute assumptions for analysis, you would find that infrastructure 

spending is not a good idea, and it provides no benefit for the economy—which I think is just counterintuitive. 

Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. Dr. Hassett, do you agree with 

that? 

Dr. Hassett. Oh, thank you, Senator. You know, I think that you 

are correct that the argument in favor, that Senator Gramm and 

I and Mr. Diamond are making in favor of making the best evidence available, should apply to a wide range of things. 

The infrastructure literature is one of the strongest literatures, 

I think, where it is very clear that infrastructure investment on average has a very significant positive growth effect. 

But, you know, that gets back to my last point, and I certainly 

don’t want to take all your time, but if you think about, we had 

the question of what is ‘‘conservative scoring,’’ and I’m not talking 

about partisan conservative/liberal, I just say what is conservative 

scoring, it is an example. 

So if you are going to spend money on something where the estimated rates of return are in the double digits in the academic literature, then you ought to get rewarded for making such a good 

choice based on everything that economists know. 

Senator Klobuchar. And Mr. Buckley has a different view of 

that—— 

Dr. Hassett. He basically said something that made no sense to 

me, frankly, that because if you are not going to do any analysis 

then how are we substituting assumptions for analysis by doing dynamic scoring? The whole point about not allowing a dynamic score 

is we just assume—let me give you an example— 

Senator Klobuchar. Do you have evidence with infrastructure 

of how it has been scored in the past, like international tax reform? 

And then Congressman Brady is going to ask—— 

Dr. Hassett. I would be happy to correspond on this. I did not 

prepare an infrastructure—— 

Senator Klobuchar. Okay—— 

Dr. Hassett [continuing]. But as a conservative estimate, just to 

give an example, suppose that we were to increase the corporate 

tax rate to 90 percent. It is not something that anyone would propose, but suppose that we did. 

Well if we just do a static score of that, then we will get a lot 

of revenue. And that is not a conservative judgment, right? So the 

conservative should be like what is the actual revenue that we can 

expect to get? That is what conservative budgeting is. And not allowing a dynamic score I think is not conservative. 

Senator Klobuchar. Well I am out of time, but I might follow 

up with some of this in writing, if you guys could look at how 
21 

these—I have just mentioned two separate proposals here. You 

know, one is the Drive Act, which is the pay-for model that Senators McConnell and Inhofe and Senator Boxer negotiated. And 

then the other one is more of an idea of using the taxes, the money 

that is sitting over there that we want to bring in. And of course 

we have not really defined how much of it would go to infrastructure, but it is just another way of paying for it. 

All right. Thank you. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you, Senator. Without objection 

I will place in the record a report by Doug Holtz-Eakin, a good 

friend of the Committee, on dynamic scoring and infrastructure 

spending, how it is used in evaluating policy proposals. 

[The report titled ‘‘Dynamic Scoring and Infrastructure Spending’’ appears in the Submissions for the Record on page 69.] 

Vice Chairman Brady. With that, Mr. Paulsen is recognized. 

Representative Paulsen. Thank you. 

It just seems to make sense that we should be using all the tools 

available as we make these important policy decisions that affect 

the lives of millions of Americans every day. 

Because we live in a very dynamic world where businesses and 

individuals make decisions in part based on what takes place here 

in Washington, lawmakers should have access to information that 

takes into account the real-world impact of these proposed policies 

on the people we serve. 

Congress does not have a good track record predicting the economic impact of its policies, because we have relied on these computer models that are unreliable. Everywhere else, as you mentioned, we are using the best information available. But for some 

reason we are not using it here, because we think we are in some 

alternative universe, and so we don’t have to worry about that. 

Senator Gramm, I think you pointed out the historical concept of 

demonstrating how fiscal policy changes have either accelerated or 

decelerated real GDP growth over the last several decades, and 

how the resulting changes in economic growth have affected federal 

outlays, receipts, budget deficits, et cetera, with revenue being up, 

GDP being up after some of the changes in the 1980s for instance. 

I was actually encouraged just a couple of years ago when the 

Senate, under Democratic control then, took a vote to have dynamic scoring used as a part of their tax reform modeling, and now 

the House has put this formally into its rules. I strongly believe 

that we need to fix the broken tax code with comprehensive reform 

so it promotes investment, savings, and hard work. 

So let me just ask this, and maybe Senator Gramm, I will just 

start with you. Because you have been here as a former Member 

with a wide variety of background, what value does incorporating 

this real-world impact into a scoring model have for current lawmakers? And do you believe the use of an economic model that includes real-world or dynamic impacts could help grow consensus 

here in Washington around tough-to-tackle issues like tax reform 

or entitlement reform? 

Dr. Gramm. Well I think that we need to use the best tools that 

are available. And when dynamic scoring, as we’re calling it, but 

using the feedback effect that policy changes have on the economy 

and on the Federal Government’s fiscal position, that refusing to 
22 

look at that simply guarantees that we are going to have poor results. 

And as I said in my opening statement, if you look at the budgets 

of the United States and what the predictions were and what has 

happened, the biggest errors always occur because of changes in 

the economy. And they just swamp policy changes that are scored 

on a static basis. 

So I can’t understand why we would not try to undertake this. 

And you’ve got to undertake it for everything. Trying to look at 

feedback effects on the economy is not about tax cuts. It is not 

about changes in transportation. It is about all the above. 

Now you have got to meet criteria, it seems to me, to claim the 

scoring. You’ve got to have a theory that makes sense. You’ve got— 

it’s got to have a feedback effect in the time period you are budgeting, and you’ve got to provide some empirical evidence. 

But where you can do all three, to just simply say that this 

makes no sense, I think again where these terms become proxies 

for policies that people differ from, if somebody could come up with 

an education reform program that honest-to-God dramatically affected education in America, and did it quickly, it would merit a 

huge dynamic scoring. 

Now there is a big difference between talking about it and doing 

it. But the point is, those are the kind of things we ought to be 

looking at. And if somebody has got a good idea, they ought to get 

credit for it in terms of what it is likely to produce. I think that 

is the point that we are making. 

And I don’t see how you can be for dynamic scoring for transportation and not for dynamic scoring in tax reform. I mean, again it 

is obvious. You are just talking about what you are for, not for the 

tools you ought to use in trying to understand it. 

Representative Paulsen. Is there a downside to having the additional information that dynamic scoring can provide? 

Dr. Gramm. Well look. You can always be wrong, and we’re almost certainly going to be wrong, but it seems to me in every area 

of life, from the practice of medicine to drilling for oil, to whatever, 

you operate with the best tools you’ve got until you get better tools, 

but you learn from the process. And I think that is what we need 

to undertake. 

And I like the idea of a range of options. I like the idea of giving 

outside people a chance to comment on it. I like the idea of trying 

to form a consensus. But I don’t think you can begin: Well, I’m for 

dynamic scoring here because I am for this policy, but I am against 

it here because I am against that policy. It just does not make any 

sense. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. Representative Beyer, you 

are recognized. 

Representative Beyer. Thank you, Vice Chairman Brady. 

Thank all of you very much for coming to be with us. 

Senator Gramm, it is wonderful to see you again, and thank you 

for your humility as an economist. I am encouraged by—although 

I am hearing first that there seems to really be a consensus among 

the panel that if dynamic scoring makes sense on the revenue side, 

that it also makes sense on the investment side, at least for things 

that can be measured like infrastructure investment. 
23 

I would also like to thank Dr. Diamond for his comment, ‘‘I know 

I’m right.’’ It’s the first time I have ever heard an economist say 

something with such confidence. So, excellent. 

[Laughter.] 

Good work. In Senator Gramm’s written statement, and I think 

also you said here there were three conditions. You said, first there 

must be a clear and established economic theory suggesting a causative link between specific policy changes and a substantial macro 

economic effect, et cetera. 

And Peter Orszag, in this thing that was handed out, said, on dynamic scoring, ‘‘You’re forced in the organization to pick one true 

model, when economic science hasn’t produced a single model that 

works.’’ 

So I got to study economics for four years as an undergraduate 

and am completely confused. We weren’t supposed to have stagflation ever, and Japan had it for 10 years. No growth and strong inflation. 

Our $800 billion stimulus bill put together with quantitative easing one, two, three, and four, was supposed to give us inflation, and 

we have not seen it. 

IMF and Europe imposed austerity on Greece to fix their economy. It clearly has not worked. 

Mr. Buckley, do you think that we have established, quote, ‘‘a 

clear and established economic theory that gives us a basis for dynamic scoring’’? 

Mr. Buckley. I don’t believe that any member of the panel 

would say that there is a single model that comes up with the 

right, acceptable number. So the answer is: There’s not. 

Now one thing I think, at least in my mind, there is a sharp distinction between providing more information for the debate and affecting official scores. I think the more information, the better. In 

that broad range of estimates, it is probably the best you can do. 

I think on transportation spending, there is real good evidence 

that it provides benefits that are dramatic to our economy. You 

cannot have a modern economy without a modern transportation 

system. 

I think that information should be part of the debate—but the 

question is: Would you reduce the cost of a transportation bill by 

those benefits? 

I think that would be inconsistent with cost accounting. At the 

end of the day when they announce the deficit, those dollar expenditures will be recorded, not reduced by anticipated benefits. 

So I think you have to be kind of consistent in the way you do 

it. Now don’t interpret me as saying you shouldn’t be provided that 

information to justify this. 

Representative Beyer. That is a great transition. Back to Senator Gramm, both in your questions and your written statement 

you say, quote, ‘‘It is important to remember that dynamic scoring 

is not a replacement for traditional static scoring, but rather an enhancement of it.’’ But the new rule passed by the Congressional Republicans in the House, as least, H.R. 1, requires the JTC and the 

CBO to provide a single revenue projection. 

I am sort of building on what Congressman Paulsen said. That 

estimate is official, not advisory. Wouldn’t you agree that this new 
24 

rule makes less information available to policymakers rather than 

more? 

Dr. Gramm. Well I can’t imagine that they’re not going to provide the building blocks they use to try to come up with the scoring. If I were doing it, I would want to set some broad parameters. 

And then I would want to try to see to what degree you might 

reach a consensus as to what the best estimate would be. 

So I might go about it that way. But do I believe we’re better off 

in trying to look at the feedback effect of our policy on the economy 

and the government? I think we are better off trying to do it. I 

don’t claim it’s going to be perfect, or it’s going to be a good estimate every time. But, you know, you look back at even static estimates we’ve made, often they’ve been very poor estimates. 

I could give you examples that would go on and on about how 

we projected something and then the economy just blew it away. 

Representative Beyer. Thank you, Senator Gramm. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. 

Representative Schweikert, you are recognized. 

Representative Schweikert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Hassett, if I came to you right now and said I want to design 

the optimum dynamic scoring model in a modern society, and you 

know, I’m a big fan of crowd sourcing information and today we all 

walk around with super computers in our pocket. The ability to 

grab lots and lots and lots and lots of data sources and capture 

them—because my understanding is you’re the closest one right 

now to sort of doing that in a public, open forum. How far can we 

take that? 

Dr. Hassett. Thank you, Mr. Schweikert. It actually is a very 

relevant point for the previous conversation, too, because my belief 

is that there is no one correct model, that there are lots of models 

with lots of different characteristics. Some models allow for unemployment. Some of them don’t. They assume that we’re always at 

full employment. 

I think that, you know, Mr. Buckley said we shouldn’t use the 

models, we shouldn’t put any weight on the models that don’t have 

unemployment. And, you know, the current CBO long-run forecast 

assumes that we’re at full employment a couple of years from now. 

So it’s a very standard thing. 

But what we have to do is let a professional staff look at all of 

the evidence and then make a considered judgment about what the 

right answer is. And that is the way to do it. And so I want to look 

at models like Mr. Diamond’s model, which is a model I worked in 

graduate school, a predecessor model of that. But there are a lot 

of other models, too, and some of them have Keynesian effects, 

and—— 

Representative Schweikert. But would you accept an open 

source model where different data sets could be put in? You know, 

if I had some data set from my region of the country—— 

Dr. Hassett. Exactly. 

Mr. Schweikert [continuing]. I could plug it in and see the effect? 

Dr. Hassett. And what you have to do is look at basically the 

information set and construct estimates of what are the prob-
25 

abilities of the different things that might happen. And the way 

you do that is you look at lots of different people’s approaches. 

And so what we have tried to do is, one of the obstacles for this 

is there are macro economists all over the world developing macro 

economic models that will allow you to change policy and see what 

happens. But they are not linked to the things that we use to score 

because they don’t have the micro simulation model as the sort of 

first move. 

And so what we have done is that we have automated the bridge 

between the model that you get right now in the static score and 

the things you need to actually get a macro economic model to 

work so that people with macro economic models can link them to 

what we’re doing, and then hopefully in a year or two we will have 

lots and lots of these models that we can look at. 

Representative Schweikert. Dr. Diamond, (a) is that the future of how you would do it, but also how do you design a model 

that reflects today compared to the data set we had a month ago? 

I am fixated on the Atlanta Fed’s GDPNow because of its constant 

reacting to what happened that week of data. 

I mean, how dynamic can you make the model? And can you 

make it in a way where we are able to look at it today and understand what it is doing to our policies? 

Dr. Diamond. I think what Kevin is doing in open source modeling is invaluable, and it is an idea that I’ve kicked around and 

just never made it work, and I am really glad to hear that someone 

is taking the lead. I think it is going to be a brilliant advancement 

of modeling technology. 

It may—I don’t think the model you are explaining really exists 

today. I mean, in some sense they do but the changes are hard, and 

they take a lot of time. 

Representative Schweikert. But my concern, where I was trying to take this is what happens today when we get information 

that says, hey, the decision we made six months ago, or five 

months ago, isn’t working? Should we as a Congress also start to 

become much more dynamic in our policy? Instead of saying: This 

is our policy for all of 2016, and if it doesn’t work, well be damned 

with it. 

Dr. Diamond. Absolutely. We should all be like that. And I 

think that when we get that evidence, we have to be willing to 

change course. And that is why I think dynamic analysis is so important, because it provides information about which course you 

want to take. 

Representative Schweikert. Well you could also start to design policy. It’s as if the data you’re getting does this, the law kicks 

in this, or takes this away, or adds this. So you could also actually 

start to be much more disciplined and creative in what we actually 

draft around here. 

Dr. Diamond. That’s amazing. 

Representative Schweikert. Senator, okay, you were trying to 

make the point of how we’ve heard some fairly blatant partisan discussion on dynamic scoring, but I still remember many of my 

friends on the left just being almost evangelical about dynamic 

scoring when they were talking about the $831 billion stimulus bill, 

and the multiplier effects it was going to have. 
26 

Don’t we have lots of examples around us where we seem to 

choose our poison? 

Dr. Gramm. Well I think, and God knows I don’t want to be 

critical of the Congress, but what tends to happen—— 

Representative Schweikert. Oh, please do. 

[Laughter.] 

Dr. Gramm [continuing]. Is that people pick and choose based 

on what they want, sort of to try to get the best argument they can 

make for their position. And it is easy to understand, and I’m sure 

that I have done it on many occasions. 

The point is, however, that this ought to be something we are 

looking at all the time. And in most cases a group of totally nonpartisan experts, if such a thing exists, would throw it out and say: 

Well, this just doesn’t rise to the level that you would ever want 

to make a projection based on it. It’s not big enough. It doesn’t happen soon enough. There’s not enough empirical evidence. 

But every once in awhile there will be a policy change that is big 

enough. And when it does happen, it ought to either get credit if 

it has a positive effect, or have cost attributed to it if it has a negative effect. 

And when you were saying about how, you know, if we had this 

evidence the policy was not working we’d quit doing it, actually 

most of the arguments would be it’s not working because we’re not 

doing enough. 

Representative Schweikert. And with that, Mr. Chairman, 

thank you. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. Representative Delaney is 

recognized for what will certainly be a discussion about infrastructure—— 

Representative Delaney. Well, no, I feel like that was covered 

thoroughly. So I want to pivot to just a question. Because, look it, 

to me there is no argument against dynamic scoring. Right now the 

Congress has put itself in a position where it cannot make any 

judgment decisions, right? 

We assume that changes in revenues have no effect—or changes 

in tax policy have no effect on behavior; we know they do, sometimes dramatic, sometimes modest. 

We also assume that government spending and investments have 

no effect on economic activity, and we know they do. Sometimes 

dramatic. Sometimes modest. So to me there is no legitimate economic rational analytical argument against dynamic scoring. We 

should be doing it. 

But when I think about it from kind of a private sector context, 

when a private business changes its revenues, or it changes its 

pricing to hopefully encourage more revenues—which is kind of the 

analogy to tax policy—or when a private enterprise makes an investment because it thinks it will have a decent return on its investment instead of modeling it at a zero, which is basically what 

the government does, there’s a governance model in place where 

people generally have the best intentions in terms of making good 

rational decisions. So a board of directors looks at a proposal to 

make an investment, or they look at a proposal to lower pricing, 

and they debate whether it will have the intended effect. Sometimes they’re right. Sometimes they’re wrong. But there’s a good 
27 

governance process where these decisions are made on a rational 

basis. 

The worry, obviously, with dynamic scoring, the only worry I 

have is it will obviously be manipulated for ideological benefit. 

So do you have any thoughts as to what other things should 

change from a governance perspective so that we could actually feel 

comfortable doing what we obviously should do, which is to get 

away from static scoring, which we know is wrong 100 percent of 

the time? It’s always wrong, right, because there are these behavioral changes. There are these economic effects. And move to dynamic scoring which has a much better chance of being accurate. 

It’s not going to be 100 percent accurate, but it has a much better 

chance. How we can do that in a way with some kind of comfort 

that maybe we have a better governance? 

Dr. Hassett. 

Dr. Hassett. May I answer first, because—and thank you. I absolutely share that concern. And the first thing is that I think that 

a static score you would basically have the same concern, right, 

that they could call it a static score. And yet our scoring bodies are 

incredibly distinguished. I trust them, and I think you trust them 

to do the static score to very high professional standards. 

But the second thing, and this is the thing that’s a little bit different from the current static scoring practice that we’re trying to 

sort of insert ourselves into, is that we just need to see how they 

do it—— 

Representative Delaney. Right. 

Dr. Hassett [continuing]. What they say, because, you know, to 

try go back and figure out whether scores were correct or not, on 

average it’s almost impossible. It’s a very, very difficult thing. 

But if we start being fully transparent, then we could evaluate 

how we do. We thought it was going to be this much revenue, it 

was that much revenue. 

Representative Delaney. So like a budget—you know, in the 

private sector you would normally have, when you’re looking at financial performance, you have budget and actual. And you’re actually looking at how your performance compared to what you 

thought it would be. 

You would recommend more of that kind of discipline? 

Dr. Hassett. Yes. 

Representative Delaney. You’re right, because there is a bit of 

a man-behind-the-curtain thing here, which it’s not clear how some 

of these scores are determined. That will be less transparent. Let’s 

face it, static scoring is easier than dynamic scoring, right? 

Dr. Hassett. Um-hmm. 

Representative Delaney. So this will be a harder process I 

think. And we do need much more transparency of how they make 

the decisions, and actually how they’re performing. Because if 

they’re doing a bad job, we should get new scorers in, right? You 

know, just like in a company, if people do bad financial modeling, 

you get new modelers in to hopefully do a better job. 

Dr. Hassett. Can I even say one last thing, which I feel strongly 

about, that I’m not sure I would chose dynamic scoring that’s not 

transparent for static scoring, because with dynamic scoring you 

have a lot more wiggle room to do stuff. And if there is somebody 
28 

unethical doing that, then it is going to be much harder to discipline them. So I think it is very important for dynamic scoring 

to be done in a fully transparent way. 

Representative Delaney. So you would make them disclose all 

their assumptions. 

Dr. Hassett. Yes, and the model. 

Dr. Gramm. And all their data. 

Representative Delaney. Yes, that went behind it. So what we 

are talking here is dynamic scoring coupled with a much more robust level of transparency. Any other governance changes you 

might make, Senator Gramm? 

Dr. Gramm. I think because of partisanship, because of the difference in the sort of behavioral objectives in a private entity that 

at least everybody is trying to be successful versus a political entity 

where people have different objectives, I think you’ve got to have 

a pretty high standard that has to be met before you are going to 

employ the result of your model. 

I think there is a heavier burden of proof here. Sort of an effort 

to sanitize it where there is enough of a consensus that there—— 

Representative Delaney. Right. 

Dr. Gramm [continuing]. That there is more than just a partisan push here. And I think again this open model where you 

could get input from anybody in the world who could send you their 

views on it, and, you know, a lot of them would be pretty—you 

wouldn’t take seriously, but some of them might be very serious. 

And I think that’s a good idea. 

Representative Delaney. Good. Good. Thank you, very much. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. 

Representative Grothman for the final question. 

Representative Grothman. I hate to question this love fest 

here, but I would like to respond. I personally believe in the Laffer 

curve. I do believe as you cut tax rates it has to affect behavior. 

I am very, very skeptical of studies that show that everything 

the government does is an investment and will pay for itself. You 

know, we need more preschool, more kids going to college even 

though people can’t get jobs today. We need more prevention programs, more infrastructure. 

And when you combine the idea that tax cuts result in increased 

revenue collections, and that all these new spending programs result in—are actually investments which will more than pay for 

themselves, it seems to me, well, it seems to be pretty keynesian 

economics, almost making it part of the statutes. You know, the 

idea that the bigger and bigger deficits just keep paying for themselves, I think that’s a little bit scary. 

Obviously I dislike the idea that bigger government leads to 

more prosperity, more than I do the idea that lower tax rates lead 

to prosperity. But just on the face of it, it seems where we’re headed is, let’s in the next budget cut taxes and spend more money on 

a variety of programs, and we’re just going to be running surpluses 

soon. 

And I think that is kind of a scary thing. I would like you guys 

to respond to that fear that I have. 

Dr. Gramm. Well I think it can be a scary thing. I think that 

everybody argues that their pet program is the magic solution. And 
29 

I think that is why you’ve got to have a very high standard before 

you would accept to use dynamic scoring. 

Now most of these arguments fall apart when you take a close 

look at them, but I think that setting up a procedure to evaluate 

them, where you have agreed in advance that unless the evidence 

is pretty overwhelming you are not going to do the dynamic scoring, I think that is the right way to go. 

But I think caution on both sides of the aisle is the right thing 

to do. 

Dr. Hassett. Could I just add one logical thing? It’s very short. That if we spent the $100 billion burying $100 billion in the 

ground, the classic textbook Keynesian policy, we would get more 

GDP this year. But then we don’t do it next year and government 

spending is going down by the $100 billion, so we’ve just located 

$100 billion this year, then there is an equal and opposite effect tomorrow and GDP is going down because we’ve got less government 

spending than we had this year, and so the growth rate will be 

lower. So we could spend more this year, but then we have to pay 

for it. And when we pay for it, there will be a net cost. 

And so if you look at the long run effect of Keynesian policies in 

a budgetary manner, then you find a negative cumulative effect because there’s equal and opposite effects up front but then a longrun cost of paying for it. So I don’t think that it would induce a 

lot—if we were to increase government spending, it would produce 

a lot of Keynesianism. What it might do, though, is make you 

spend things where we have a lot of evidence that it is a positive, 

like building wider bridges and things like that. There is a lot of 

evidence that that is a very high rate of return place. 

Representative Grothman. We would all be wealthier if we 

had wider bridges? Do you really believe that? 

Dr. Hassett. It depends on where you put them, but there are 

a lot of bottlenecks in the D.C. area where people are wasting a 

huge amount of time getting to work because you have to get 

across the river if you’re in Virginia. 

So, yeah, I think that you could make Virginians wealthier and 

their property values would go up if it was easier to get into D.C. 

Representative Grothman. Would you describe yourself—I 

mean, I didn’t know we had—I guess we’re told on the thing here 

that, you know, the guys on the left are Republican, or my left. 

Would you describe yourself as a Keynesian? 

Dr. Hassett. No. Absolutely not. 

Representative Grothman. Okay, I will yield back my remaining 40 seconds. 

Vice Chairman Brady. Thank you. 

I want to thank the panel for being here today. Let me first submit for the record for Mrs. Maloney a report from the Center on 

Budget and Policy related to budget and tax plans, an outline on 

dynamic scoring. 

[The report titled ‘‘House ‘Dynamic Scoring’ Rule Likely Will 

Mean More Tax Cuts—Not More Information’’ appears in the Submissions for the Record on page 87.] 

Vice Chairman Brady. You know, our goal was to have a discussion about how do you create the most accurate and complete 

assessment of the economic impact of policies. 
30 

What I seemed to hear today was that dynamic scoring does not 

apply to everything, but where it does it should be applied and considered; that the impact has to be big enough; the cause and the 

evidence has to be accurate enough. And it is critical that all these 

models be open both in the data and the models and the assumptions for both parties to have confidence in the range that it is arriving at. 

So with that, let me thank all the panelists for being here today, 

and I want to give a special shout-out to my former Senior Senator 

from Texas who we work hard to try to follow in your footsteps 

every day. Thanks so much for coming back to the Senate today. 

With that, the hearing is adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 3:38 p.m., Tuesday, July 28, 2015, the hearing 

was adjourned.) 
(31) 

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 
32 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. DAN COATS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT ECONOMIC

COMMITTEE

The committee will come to order. 

I would like to welcome our witnesses, including my former colleague and good 

friend Phil Gramm, who I am not used to seeing on the other side of the dais! I 

thank all of our witnesses for being here today to discuss the concept of ‘‘dynamic 

scoring,’’ a topic that has been much debated since the House passed a rule earlier 

this year requiring the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Committee on 

Taxation to use dynamic scoring when evaluating ‘‘major legislation.’’ 

The Joint Committee on Taxation and Congressional Budget Office have long provided lawmakers with estimates of spending and revenue changes that would occur 

should a bill become law. For decades, however, these ‘‘scores,’’ as they are known, 

have largely ignored the biggest driver of surpluses and deficits: economic growth. 

That’s because the current method of estimation—known as ‘‘static scoring’’—does 

not reflect the reality that the economy can grow or contract as a result of public 

policy. Most notably, it does not account for the massive effects that policy can have 

on labor supply or private investment, two of the largest drivers of the U.S. economy. Ignoring these effects leaves lawmakers in the dark, unable to debate legislation with all available information at our disposal. 

While dynamic scoring has been debated for decades, it is no longer ‘‘voodoo economics.’’ In fact, advances in computer technology and economics have finally 

brought us from the question of, ‘‘Can it be done?’’ to the answer of, ‘‘Yes, and here’s 

how.’’ 

We have the rare opportunity today to hear from those who have been in the 

trenches of this debate as lawmakers, congressional staffers, and academics. 

I’d now like to recognize Ranking Member Maloney for her opening statement and 

then will turn to Vice Chairman Brady, who was instrumental in putting together 

this hearing. 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. KEVIN BRADY, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT ECONOMIC

COMMITTEE

Chairman Coats, Ranking Member Maloney, Members, and Distinguished Wit- nesses: Thank you, Chairman Coats, for convening a hearing on such an important topic. 

Let us begin with a common-sense proposition. To make fiscal policy decisions 

that will increase the prosperity of the American people, Congress needs to have the 

most accurate and complete assessment of the economic effects of any proposed entitlement spending and tax legislation. 

Until this year, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the Joint Committee 

on Taxation (JCT) have ‘‘scored’’ proposed entitlement spending and tax bills, respectively, on a micro-dynamic, but macro-static basis. Under this treatment, the 

CBO and the JCT allow certain changes in the economic behavior of individuals and 

businesses in response to the enactment and implementation of proposed legislation, 

but hold the size of the U.S. economy (real GDP) unchanged. For example, the JCT 

would concede that a $5 per gallon increase in the federal tax on motor vehicle fuels 

would cause households to drive less and consume less gasoline. Counterintuitively, 

however, the JCT would deny that such a tax increase would affect the U.S. economy overall. 

This scoring convention is, of course, economic nonsense. In his testimony Senator 

Phil Gramm demonstrates how major fiscal policy changes accelerated or decelerated real GDP growth over the last three decades and, in turn, how the resulting 

changes in economic growth affected federal outlays, receipts, budget deficits (or 

surpluses), and debt held by the public over the last several decades. Rather than 

delivering realistic projections, the current scoring convention reflects the limitations of economic modeling and computing capacity in the 1970s. 

In contrast with conventional scoring, dynamic scoring requires the CBO and the 

JCT to assess not only whether proposed entitlement spending and tax legislation 

would affect the economic behavior of individuals and businesses at a micro level, 

but also whether the aggregation of all such behavioral changes would affect overall 

economic growth. In other words, dynamic scoring removes the artificial, arbitrary, 

and unrealistic supposition that major entitlement spending and tax changes will 

not affect the U.S. economy as a whole. Put simply, dynamic scoring is proven, reallife analysis that helps policymakers from both parties weigh the impact of proposed 

changes. 

The question before the Joint Economic Committee today is whether the implementation of dynamic scoring of major entitlement spending and tax bills would im-
33 

prove the quality of economic information available to Congress before making 

major fiscal policy decisions. The answer is an unqualified yes. 

Since being elected to the House of Representatives in 1996, I have been involved 

with tax and entitlement scoring issues on the Ways and Means Committee under 

Chairmen Bill Thomas, David Camp, and Paul Ryan. I have observed the great 

progress that economists from diverse political viewpoints have made in refining 

their macroeconomic models and developing a consensus around the estimates of 

key parameters over the last two decades. 

As Dr. John Diamond and Dr. Kevin Hassett will testify, economists now have 

the ability to make reliable forecasts of the macroeconomic effects of entitlement 

spending and tax bills on real GDP growth and the feedback of such growth on federal outlays, receipts, budget deficits (or surpluses), and debt held by the public. The 

limitations that led to conventional scoring in the 1970s no longer apply. 

Since 1997, the House of Representatives has allowed the Chairman of the Ways 

and Means Committee to request dynamic analysis of major tax legislation from the 

JCT, but for informational purposes only. In 2015, the House adopted a new rule 

requiring any proposed entitlement spending or tax legislation that would create a 

gross budget change equal to or more than 1⁄4 of one percent of GDP to be scored 

on a dynamic basis. Other legislation designated by either the Budget Committee 

Chair or the Ways and Means Committee Chair must also be scored on a dynamic 

basis. 

Technology has advanced. The economy has become more complex. Sticking blindly to the old ways robs policy makers in Congress of new, more accurate insights 

on key challenges facing our country. 

While dynamic scoring may involve multiple models and different estimates of key 

parameters, dynamic scoring provides Congress with a consistent, though not identical, view of how proposed entitlement and tax changes would actually affect the 

real world. Yes, there is some uncertainty, but that is part of the real world, too. 

Currently, dynamic scoring applies to major entitlement reform and tax legislation. One of the Members of this Committee, Representative John Delaney, suggested in a Washington Post op-ed in January of this year that dynamic scoring 

should also be applied to infrastructure spending. While there may be merit to scoring government spending if it significantly changes the overall economy, at this 

point Congress should focus the CBO and the JCT on major tax and entitlement 

proposals before expanding the scope of dynamic scoring. 

I look forward to today’s discussion with our witnesses. 

PREPARTED STATEMENT OF HON. CAROLYN B. MALONEY, RANKING DEMOCRAT, JOINT

ECONOMIC COMMITTEE

Last month, this committee held a hearing on so-called ‘‘fair value accounting,’’ 

a method of calculating the impact of federal lending programs that will make them 

appear more expensive. 

Today, the committee turns its attention to dynamic scoring, a method of analyzing and quantifying the budgetary impact of tax cuts that will make them appear 

less expensive. 

Both methods are very problematic. 

And in both cases, they change the rules of the game so my Republican colleagues 

can get the results they want. 

Dynamic scoring has been conservatives’ Holy Grail for many years. This is because if tax cuts appear to cost less, it will be easier for Congress to pass more of 

them. 

Revenue estimates are based on projections of future behavior. For many decades, 

budget effects from legislation were estimated using what my Republican colleagues 

mistakenly called ‘‘static’’ models. These models are not ‘‘static’’ because they anticipate how individuals would react to the legislation, and the models are broadly-accepted by the experts in the field. 

Recently my Republican colleagues changed the scoring rule by requiring the estimates to include the effect of legislations on the whole economy, which is called ‘‘dynamic scoring.’’ 

But there are serious problems with dynamic scoring. One problem is that it provides results that are highly uncertain, vary wildly, and could be subject to manipulation. 

Let’s take the example of former House Ways and Means Chairman Dave Camp’s 

tax reform legislation last Congress. 

The JCT performed a dynamic analysis to see how much additional revenue the 

tax plan could return to the Treasury. 
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They used eight different models. They came up with eight different answers— from $50 billion to $700 billion. The largest estimate was 14 times the size of the 

smallest estimate. 

Which estimate did Chairman Camp highlight? 

$700 billion. The HIGHEST one. 

This leads to two more serious problems with dynamic scoring—there is no consensus on which dynamic scoring model is the most appropriate, and the models 

rely on assumptions that are sometimes wildly unrealistic. 

For example, one dynamic scoring model assumes that if the debt increases as a 

share of the economy future Congresses will deal with the problem. 

The model assumes that in the future there will be no unemployment. 

The fact is that with dynamic scoring, budget analysts will be forced to choose 

between deeply flawed, models. 

Former CBO Director Rudolph Penner has said that: 

‘‘ . . . dynamic scoring would force analysts to make many more judgment 

calls than they do today. Quality control would be difficult, and that implies 

a high risk that ideological biases will pollute the analysis.’’ 

There is yet another serious issue with dynamic scoring—new rules require a single estimate. 

Until now, JCT and CBO have been required—at the request of the chairman of 

the Ways and Means Committee—to provide a range of dynamic analysis estimates 

to reflect the different models and assumptions choices. 

But the new rule passed by Congressional Republicans requires JCT and CBO to 

provide a single revenue projection, and the estimate is official, not advisory. 

The example of Dave Camp’s bill shows that dynamic estimates for major tax bills 

can differ by hundreds of billions of dollars. If the Camp bill had become law and the $700 billion figure proved wrong, deficits 

would explode. 

Because the results are so unreliable, dynamic scoring will compromise the accuracy and integrity of the federal budgeting process. 

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker has said simply: 

‘‘I won’t believe the numbers.’’ 

And what happens if the markets come to doubt the integrity of the scoring process? 

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has said that: 
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‘‘Should financial markets lose confidence in the integrity of our budget 

scoring procedures, the rise in inflation premiums and interest rates could 

more than offset any statistical difference between so-called static and more 

dynamic scoring.’’ 

Republicans’ decision to use dynamic scoring—a highly unrealistic and deeply 

flawed method—may by itself have negative consequences that overwhelm whatever 

positive revenue effects that could be gained by cutting taxes. 

There is still another problem with dynamic scoring as implemented by this Congress—it strongly biases policy toward tax cuts. 

The new rule applies dynamic scoring only to tax cuts, not to discretionary spending. 

There is a broad consensus among mainstream economists that investments in infrastructure, education, and research and development can have a strong stimulative effect, but the new rules do not apply to discretionary spending. For this reason, 

these investments will seem very expensive relative to tax cuts, and Congress will 

be more likely to cut them. 

But does that mean that we should apply dynamic scoring to discretionary spending proposals as well? 

No—because an accurate and impartial method of dynamic scoring remains far 

beyond the reach of economists and budget analysts. 

Until those models improve vastly, there is little justification for using dynamic 

scoring on either tax bills or spending bills. 

The dynamic scoring rule serves only one purpose—it helps Republicans reach 

their Holy Grail . . . 

. . . rigging the rules so it’s easier for Congress to cut taxes. 

Bruce Bartlett, a former aide to President Reagan, put it this way: dynamic scoring 

‘‘ . . . is not about honest revenue-estimating. It’s about using smoke and 

mirrors to institutionalize Republican ideology.’’ 

I look forward to our witnesses’ testimony. 
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR PHIL GRAMM

It is a great honor to be asked to testify before the Joint Economic Committee 

today, especially because I served with Chairman Coats for many years in the Senate, and Vice Chairman Brady is an old friend of mine from Texas. 

During my time in the House and Senate, I focused mostly on the economy and 

the budget. Anyone who spends any significant time studying the U.S. budget comes 

to realize that changes in America’s economic performance have a profound impact 

on the budget of the country. Economic changes often overwhelm the expected static 

impact of even the largest policy changes. 

Until we learn how to incorporate the impact of our policy changes on the economy and the budget, we won’t have a real understanding of the costs and benefits 

of our proposed policy changes. When we have a strong reason to believe that a policy change is likely to affect the economy, based upon a logically consistent theory, 

and good empirical evidence that similar policies have had significant effects on the 

economy in the past, we should always attempt to employ dynamic scoring. 

Dynamic scoring is about finding a way to gauge the full impact that policies 

might have in increasing or decreasing government revenues and government expenditures. It seems to me that there are three conditions that should be met before 

dynamic scoring can be used. 

First, there must be a clear and established economic theory suggesting a causative link between specific policy changes and a substantial macroeconomic effect of 

sufficient magnitude to alter revenues or outlays in the federal budget. Second, 

there should have to be a good reason to believe that the macroeconomic effects 

would alter government spending or revenues within the years that you are budgeting for, which is normally 10 years or less. Third, there must be convincing empirical evidence that the implementation of these policies in the past has produced both 

the economic and the budgetary effects that the theory would suggest. On all these 

points, the burden of proof should fall on those who want to use dynamic scoring. 

I’d like to discuss two compelling cases where the theory and evidence of macroeconomic effects and budgetary feedbacks are strongly supported. Both examples are 

bipartisan efforts and both relate directly to topics that are at the center of the public policy debate today. 

The Balanced Budget Act and the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 was an agreement 

between the Republican Congress and President Bill Clinton to balance the budget 

through spending restraint while cutting taxes. These bills had significant macroeconomic effects that benefited the American people and the federal treasury alike. 

In early 1995, CBO initially projected that balancing the budget by constraining 

spending would create a combined revenue and outlay dividend of $120 billion from 

1995 to 2001, an estimate later increased to $222 billion. After two years passed 

in negotiating the details of a balanced budget deal, CBO reported in January of 

1997 that much of the original dividend had been incorporated into their baseline 

so that any additional outlay and revenue dividend was just $43 billion for 1997 to 

2001. 

When we compare CBO’s January 1997 GDP and revenue forecast prior to enactment of the Balanced Budget Act to the actual results achieved in the next five 

years, we find that both economic growth and revenue growth after the Balanced 

Budget Act became law far outperformed anything projected by CBO. Nominal GDP, 

from 1997 to 2001, surpassed CBO’s projected GDP by an astonishing total of $2.4 

trillion—equivalent to $4.7 trillion in today’s economy (2014 GDP). That averaged 

out to $480 billion per year higher than CBO’s original projections, providing an 

extra $8,609 in per capita GDP in those five years. 

Revenues also rose beyond expectations, even after Congress and the President 

cut the capital gains tax rate and established the child tax credit. From 1997 to 

2001, cumulative federal revenues were $1.015 trillion higher than projected before 

the enactment of these laws. A similar revenue surge today would deliver an additional $368 billion per year to the government. The CBO reported in July 2000 that 

‘‘projected revenues for [FY] 2000 are now $303 billion more than estimated in 1997 

. . . The primary contributors to that unexpected growth stems from the strength of 

the economy and changes in the characteristics of income.’’ 

The Tax Reform Act of 1986 was designed to be revenue neutral under static scoring by closing loopholes and limiting deductions in exchange for lowering tax rates 

from a top rate of 50 percent in 1986 to 28 percent starting in 1988. In comparison 

to CBO economic and revenue projections prior to the full marginal rate reductions, 

the Tax Reform Act produced a significant macroeconomic and budgetary impact. Its 

benefits are magnified by the fact that this occurred well into one of the strongest 

and longest postwar recoveries. By January 1988, the recovery was in its 62nd 

month, over a third longer than the average postwar recovery’s length, with the 
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economy averaging a scorching 4.6 percent growth and never less than 3.5 percent 

in any year. 

Just prior to full implementation of the rate reductions, CBO’s economic projections assumed much lower growth, with estimated real GDP growth of 2.3 percent 

and 2.6 percent, respectively, for 1988 and 1989, but actual growth rates hit 3.9 percent and 3 percent (subsequently revised to 4.2 percent and 3.7 percent). 

Nominal GDP for those years surpassed CBO’s projected GDP by a total of $286 

billion, equivalent to $1 trillion in today’s economy (2014 GDP). By averaging $143 

billion per year higher, that benefited every man woman and child in America on 

average by an extra $1,163 in GDP during those two years. The Tax Reform Act 

gave a very strong second wind to the recovery, helping to deliver a 38 percent increase in real GDP in the 1982–90 recovery. 

The stronger economy fed back into stronger revenues with Federal income in the 

first two years after the marginal rate reductions averaging $25 billion higher than 

expected. CBO reported that these higher revenues were due to stronger economic 

factors. As a share of 2014 revenues, that $25 billion corresponds to $80 billion 

today. 

Based on the evidence of the bipartisan Balanced Budget Act of 1997, we could 

expect that any dramatic change in budget policy that substantially reduces the 

long term deficit through spending control, such as spending restraint and entitlement reform, could reasonably be expected to deliver substantial macroeconomic effects coming from improved business and consumer confidence. I believe a very 

strong case can be made that a comprehensive entitlement reform package that dramatically reduced the long-term deficit should receive a large positive dynamic 

score. 

Similarly, based on our experience with the bipartisan Tax Reform Act of 1986, 

we should have confidence in believing that revenue-neutral tax reform that makes 

our tax system more economically efficient and lowers tax rates would have a substantially positive effect on GDP and, therefore, federal revenues. This is especially 

true today given that the recovery of 2009 has never taken off. 

The Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) has already projected a potential dynamic 

score of up to $700 billion over 10 years from one version of pro-growth tax reform, 

which would correspond to an average annual revenue increase of $70 billion. With 

a dramatic tax simplification and rate reduction program, we could expect to achieve 

dramatically positive results. 

It is important to remember that dynamic scoring is not a replacement for traditional static scoring, but rather an enhancement of it. CBO and JCT have decades 

of experience estimating the direct impact of legislative changes on the budget, but 

the largest revisions to their projections and final figures have come from a failure 

to fully predict and incorporate macroeconomic effects in their estimates. Yet it is 

those very macroeconomic effects that have been so powerful as to swamp the static 

estimates of the largest legislative changes. 
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QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD FOR DR. JOHN DIAMOND FROM REPRESENTATIVE

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, RANKING MEMBER

1. The Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) used 8 different dynamic scoring models to estimate the possible revenue effects of Rep. Camp’s tax reform proposals. These models predict that the proposal could generate $50, 

$100, $150, $200, $225, $275, $650 or $700 billion of additional revenue from 

macroeconomic feedbacks over 10 years. 

It has been suggested at the hearing that five of these are ‘‘routine static 

scoring’’ models. Is that correct? 

To begin with, JCT refers to its normal scoring method as a ‘‘conventional’’ revenue estimate not a static estimate. Given that, no it is not correct. 

JCX–22–14 states the following: 

‘‘The proposal is projected to result in increases in economic activity relative 

to that projected under present law, as measured by changes in real GDP. 

The increase in projected economic activity is projected to increase revenues 

relative to the conventional revenue estimate by $50 to $700 billion, depending on which modeling assumptions are used, over the 10-year budget 

period.’’ 

Thus, all of the estimates are from macroeconomic analysis of TRA 2014. These 

estimates suggest that a conventional revenue estimate would be wrong by a minimum of $50 billion and by as much as $700 billion. Taking one of the middle estimates of $200 to $225 billion would be a reasonable number to use for dynamic scoring purposes. 

Diamond and Zodrow (2014) also examined the effects of a proposal similar to 

TRA 2014, which was prepared for the Business Round Table. They found that the 

most important factor is the reduction in income shifting as the corporate income 

tax rate declines. In addition, other important factors include the move to territorial, the more efficient allocation of capital, and the reallocation of FSK. Diamond 

and Zodrow found that a proposal similar in structure to IRA 2014 would increase 

GDP by 1.2 percent after five years, by 2.2 percent after 10 years, and by 3.1 percent in the long run. The long-run increase in GDP is primarily driven by a 5.0 percent increase in the ordinary capital stock and a 0.3 percent increase labor supply. 

In the long run, a 57 percent reduction in income shifting allows the corporate income tax rate to decline an extra 5 percentage points (relative to the Camp proposal) to 19.9 percent (which is the only difference in the proposal simulated and 

TRA 2014). 

2. Dynamic scoring yields widely different results depending on the 

model that is used and the assumptions on which the calculations are 

based. During the hearing, you conceded that ‘‘We can’t produce a single 

number.’’ 

This problem is especially clear in the case of the Camp proposal—the re- sults of JCT models ranged from $50 billion to $700 billion. The larger estimate—the one Camp cited—is 14 times larger than the smallest one. 

Nevertheless, Congress has passed a rule that requires JCT to provide a 

single result. Policymakers will rely on this figure to make decisions that 

could have enormous impact on our economy and our budget. 

If you believe ‘‘we can’t produce a single number,’’ what are the justifications for including these highly uncertain results in the official score as a 

single number, rather than as a range of estimates for advisory purpose in 

the conventional approach? 

I firmly believe that we can produce a single number, however this should not 

be the primary or sole goal of dynamic analysis. My statement in the hearing (‘‘we 

can’t produce a single number’’) was simply a misstatement, which I have asked to 

be corrected for the final record. My belief is that we should not only produce a single estimate, but should examine a range of estimates to inform policymakers before 

arriving at a dynamic score (a single estimate). Note that conventional estimation 

also requires modelers to make assumptions and to pick a single number from a 

range of possible estimates. As I stated in my spoken and written testimony, there 

is substantial uncertainty in conventional estimates. CBO routinely shows the significant uncertainty that is contained in conventional estimates from policy uncertainty, economic uncertainty, parameter uncertainty, as well as uncertainty related 

to the economic effects of policy enactment. For TRA 2014, simply assuming that 

there is no economic effect of the policy, even though the estimated range is from 

$50 to $700 billion, is also precisely wrong. Note that zero is a single number estimate! 
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The justification for including dynamic effects is to more accurately account for 

the cost of various proposals. This is especially important for policies that have negative economic effects, that are debt financed, or that create large distortions. In addition, dynamic analysis could play a critical role because budget gimmicks within 

the budget window can often obscure the long-run effects of policies, especially policies that are debt-financed, temporary, or delayed and introduced late in the budget 

window. Ignoring the dynamic effects would continue to allow the magnitude of the 

revenue effects of many policies to be overstated and thus likely to lead to additional 

debt. Note that huge deficits have occurred under a budget framework based on conventional estimates, at least in part because such a framework does not account for 

the true cost of competing policies. For example, consider two hypothetical proposals. The first proposal raises $200 

billion in revenue by taxing capital gains and dividends and increases tax expenditures by $200 billion by expanding child tax credits. The second proposal would 

raise $200 billion by reducing child tax credits and reduce revenues by $200 billion 

by lowering capital gains and dividend tax rates. The conventional estimates would 

view these two proposals as equivalent from a budget perspective (with some small 

differences showing up to account for certain timing effects). However, the above 

analyses clearly show that the first proposal would decrease economic growth and 

cause an increase in deficits, while the second would increase economic growth and 

lead to deficit reduction if no other policy actions were taken. It is important that 

we account for such differences in the policymaking process. 

3. During the hearing, Senator Phil Gramm dismissed Mr. Buckley’s assertion that one particular dynamic scoring model would force CBO and 

JCT to predict what a future Congress might do. Senator Gramm said that 

‘‘Anybody that would do that is a moron, because Congress talks and 

doesn’t act.’’ 

Do you see any problems in using a dynamic scoring model that assumes 

how and when a future Congress will act to finance the deficit? 

As I stated in the hearing, this is an important but extremely misunderstood 

issue. It is widely recognized that under the current law baseline U.S. fiscal policy 

is unsustainable. Let’s start by thinking about the effects of including various assumptions in dynamic models. 

Within the budget window (the next 10 years), the effects are not important. Current CBO projections show the debt to GDP ratio increasing from 74 to 78 percent 

over the next 10 years. Failing to account for such a difference in the baseline would 

not have a discernable impact on the economic effects of enacting various policy alternatives. The modelers can test this by running the policy change at both debt 

levels. In the end, modelers can choose to use an average level of debt in the model 

(e.g., 76 percent). In any case, the differences of such assumptions would almost certainly be no more than a rounding error in most cases. 

In the long run, this assumption is more important. If you use a model that allows 

for the enactment of an unsustainable fiscal policy, then you must be keenly aware 

of when the model starts to diverge and eventually it will fail to solve mathematically. During the divergence process, the model will likely produce spurious results. 

This is important to keep in mind when using such a model. In this case, assuming 

current law (note that many commentators argue this is NOT the most likely policy 

outcome, which is one reason CBO started producing an estimate of current policy) 

requires the modeler to model turning points in the economy (movements from 

booms to busts and busts to booms are much more uncertain than predicting trend 

level growth) and the effects of economic default. This is extremely difficult and 

would add needless uncertainty to the process. 

I do not see a significant issue with using a model that does not allow for 

unsustainable fiscal policies in the baseline. In fact, I believe this is a major advantage in one respect because it allows modelers to ignore the future actions of policymakers, which are likely unknowable, without having to model the effects of defaulting on government debt. More importantly, in terms of measuring the economic effects of policy changes, assuming away these large uncertainties leads to more moderate projections (note that most critics, and especially Mr. Buckley, are wildly confused on this issue). A basic tenant of economics is that the excess burden or deadweight loss of a tax increases with the square of the tax rate (that is, distortions 

increase exponentially with increases in the tax rate). So the positive economic effects from a tax rate reduction from an initially high tax rate (such as those predicted in the U.S. under the unsustainable current law baseline) would be much 

larger than a tax rate reduction from a lower tax rate (those used in models that 

ignore the unsustainable nature of current law). So assuming a baseline that assumes taxes and spending are maintained at current levels as a percentage of GDP 
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are likely to moderate the predicted effects of tax policy changes. It is my expert 

opinion that this is a desirable feature of an economic model used to predict the effects of policy changes well into the future. 

There is another issue concerning the choice of fiscal offsets for policies that are 

being examined. This is an important issue, however the professional and knowledgeable staffs of the relevant committees are more than capable of managing these 

issues. 

Do you see any problems in using a dynamic scoring model that assumes 

that every American who wants a job will be able to find one? 

Absolutely not in the long run, and I do not think it is necessary to worry about 

this problem in the short run as policymakers are already incentivized to think 

about these issues in the short run. In general, prices adjust to clear markets in 

the long run. If there is excess demand for labor, then wages would be bid up. As 

wages rose labor demanded would fall and labor supplied would rise. If there is excess supply, then wages would be bid down. As wages fall labor demanded would 

increase and labor supplied would decrease. While there can be periods of disequilibrium (such as the period after the 2008 financial crisis), I am confident policymakers 

will continue to respond with various short-term stabilizing policies during such periods (i.e., policymakers are often overly incentivized to focus on short run issues). 

But such increases in unemployment are temporary and thus should not be the 

focus of trying to determine the long run effects of policies. This is a widely held 

view. For example, CBO (2014, p. 110) states in the 2014 Long Term Budget Outlook that 

‘‘In its economic benchmark, CBO projects that real gross domestic product 

will grow fairly quickly over the next few years, reflecting a recovery in aggregate demand. Thereafter, real GDP is projected to grow at a pace that 

reflects increases in the capital stock, productivity, and the supply of labor.’’ 

Thus, this states that in the long run CBO assumes that everyone that wants a 

job will find a job. In addition, note that the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve is contemplating an interest rate increase this fall at least partly because they 

see the labor market returning to the full employment level (note that even in a 

fully employed labor market there is still unemployment as some unemployment is 

‘‘frictional’’). 

I do not believe long-term tax and spending policies should be based on short run 

fluctuations in unemployment. Dynamic analysis should be geared to adopting policies that maximize long run economic growth. Thus, full employment models can 

and should be used to examine the effects of tax and spending policies that are 

being adopted to encourage long-run economic growth. There may be times when 

using short-run models capable of examining the economic effects of policy changes 

in markets that are not in equilibrium may be important, and at that time those 

models should be used. But I don’t believe we should adopt long run policy on short 

run considerations. 

4. At the hearing, you argued that ‘‘What we need is a model that has predictive power, not a model that looks like the real world. What we want is 

to predict things accurately.’’ 

What empirical evidence could you provide to substantiate your claim 

that these dynamic scoring models ‘‘predict things accurately?’’ Can you 

please provide a list of peer-reviewed articles in reputable journals that 

prove that these dynamic scoring models accurately predict the revenue effects of tax cuts? 

These models have been widely used and accepted by many in the private sector, 

academics, and government. A great starting place to answer your question is the 

Handbook of Computable General Equilibrium Modeling, edited by Peter B. Dixon 

and Dale W. Jorgenson, published by Elsevier (the most prestigious handbook series). Of course, my favorite chapter is Chapter 11 by Diamond and Zodrow. The 

entire volume is a great starting place to learn about the value of computable general equilibrium modeling. Also, as stated in the hearing, economic models are widely used across a wide range of government and private institutions—it is well overdue for Congress to start using these resources to make better policy decisions. 
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QUESTION FOR THE RECORD FOR MR. BUCKLEY FROM REPRESENTATIVE CAROLYN B. 

MALONEY, RANKING MEMBER

1. Given your analysis of the flaws of dynamic scoring models and also 

given the fact that Congress has already adopted rules that require a single 

dynamic score of large (tax) bills, would you recommend Members of Congress to advocate dynamic scoring of both tax cuts and discretionary 

spending? Are there any assumptions in the dynamic scoring models that 

would bias against spending bills? Are there any other potential pitfalls 

that policymakers should be aware of? 

If dynamic scoring is appropriate for large tax bills, I believe that it is also appropriate for scoring major legislation that involves spending on investments, such as 

infrastructure, research and development, and education. Those investments provide 

substantial benefits for our economy, benefits perhaps more certain than the often 

predicted, but never realized, supply-side benefits of marginal rate reductions. Without adequate infrastructure or an educated workforce, the United States will not remain competitive in the world economy. 

Also, if the scoring rules differ, there will be the temptation to move spending programs into the tax laws where dynamic scoring would be available. I assure you 

that spending through tax legislation is not difficult to accomplish. 

Unfortunately, current dynamic scoring models substitute assumptions for analysis, and those assumptions are biased against Federal spending, even needed 

spending such as investments on transportation and other infrastructure. 

For example, CBO assumes that the return on public investments will be 50 percent of the return on private investments. They cite no evidence for that assumption, but merely note that assumption is halfway between zero used by some modelers and 100 percent used by some others. Under their assumption, increased 

spending on public infrastructure could be seen as negative for economic growth, 

something that we know is not true. 

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