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United States Access Board RVAAC Teleconference Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #3

Thursday Ju ly 17, 2014

U.S. Access Board

-- we are going to be starting shortly.
>> Dennis: T his is Dennis. M y headphones went out there for a minute. C an you he ar me? >> Yes. >> Dennis: O kay. A ll right. I am Dennis. I f people would introduce themselves.
>> Actually, Dennis, I am here, this is Rose Marie, Access Board, I will read the names off. I n the room here I have Jim Pecht and myself and our court reporter for today is Beverly. On the teleconference I have Andre Gagne, state your name and organization, please. >> Yes, this is Andre Gagne from Bombardier.
>> Billy Altom?>> This is Billy with the Association of Programs Rural

Independent Living. >> Chris topher Hart. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Here public member.
>> Linda Martin. >> Linda Martin, FRA.
>> Dennis Cannon is the chair. >> Yes.
>> David Nelson? >> Yes, David Nelson, Amtrak >> Thank you. B lair Slaughter? >> Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. >> Melissa An derson? >> Melissa Anderson from the Access Board. >> All right. T hank you everybody. T hat's everybody on the call that I have. J im, you want to take over? >> JIM PECHT: Dennis, take it over from here. You are boss.
>> Dennis: O kay. I hope everybody got the website and agenda up, which I cobbled together. We did a lot of stuff last time in terms of agreements. W hat I tried to do is sort of capture the things that I think we pretty much agreed on. A nd we can talk abo ut this in particulars that we are missing. B ut I wanted to make sure that we got sort of the basic ideas andmake sure if anybody is

-- if I missed something that we want

to break it up. T he restrooms we talked about a 60

- inch turning circle, side trans fer to the toilet. U se the Acela as kind of a prototype model I don't know if there are other designs that could work too. Apower door controls 12 inches minimum from any inside corner that provision needs to be put back into the controls and operating mechanism section not just the restrooms. A nd then we haven't talked specifically about things like grab bars toilet heights and so forth. We want to get to those. B ut then on the signal level dining cars we were talking about table space for two wheelc hairs and transfer seats for two. We didn't talk about what to do with the storage issue and we will have to think about that. A 29

- inch minimum clearance under the table extending 17 inches minimum from the edge that you approach. T hat's basically the p rovision in the ADAAG standards. A nd 32

- inch width because we are talking about a 54 by 32

- inch footprint for the chair. S o, you need 32 inches of clear width to get into that space. A nd then in the sleeping compartments, again, side transfer to the toi let and the shower chair. 6 0

- inch turning circle in the sleeping room with the bed deployed which is different from the current. I f you deploy the bed, in the single

- level cars at least Amtrak you can't turn around. You want the controls for all of the lights, everything HVAC callbuttons, et cetera, within reach ranges and you can have

duplicate controls with lights on the upper bunk for example at that light as long as you have it

-- as long as you have the control down below. We talked about things l ike whether it should be tethered. Ipersonally think it should probably be on a heavy cable cord that you can move around so that you can't lose it you can't take it with you when you leave and so forth. Positive door latch operable from the outside by t rained personnel. You have the model that Uwe put forth last time we had two drawings he combined them into a single one which is down at the bottom of the agenda. You want to talk about the bed height which needs to be at essentially wheelchair seat hei ght. You can decide on what that needs to be. M aybe there is a range maybe not. There has to be a table. I t has to be usable by the wheelchair user with the same kinds of requirements about height and what not that we get from the dining car. T here is a moth attacking me here.

(LAUGHTER) >> Dennis: A nd then the lounge, which is a double bi

- level car normally has a small

-- a snack bar on the lower level and seating and a restroom and then it also has seating up above and typically in fact there is a provision in the DOT standard that says when you have a lounge it has to be coupledwith the bi

- level dining car. S o, the bi

- level dining car we don't

statutorily we can't make any requirements for seating or anything else in that, that was specifically so that we wouldn't have to provide Vertical Access at least congress thought about it at the time. B ut the lounge car has accessible spaces on the lower level, the lower level of the bi

- level dining car is all kitchen. A nd seating on the upper level, a nd my understanding is none of the dining cars have a restroom; is that correct Blair? >> Blair: D ennis, there is a small restroom on the lower level for the crew for the dining car crew so they don't have to leave the galley and go elsewhere in the train

. >> Dennis: R ight. B ut it's not a public restroom right? >> Blair: N o it's not.
>> Dennis: A nd the rule says if you do not provide restroom facilities for the general public you do not have to provide an accessible restroom. S o, the same is

-- I know there is an accessible restroom in the current design lounge car at least the newer design on the lower level. M y guess is that restrooms are always on the lower level because of the tanks and what not. I s that correct? >> Blair: W here there is accessi ble restrooms, yes. T here is an exception. T he sleepers have

--well, the rooms have or the deluxe rooms have their own toilets. A nd there is one public restroom on the upper level of sleepers as well for folksin the rooms where they don't have their own toilet. B ut

downstairs there is usually four or five restrooms in the sleepers. A nd or the coaches. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair, I >> (inaudible) there is one shower in the lower level, and then there's

-- the upper level is you have the deluxe bedroom. They all have their own shower and toilet. B ut then if you are using a smaller room

- ette there is the one public restroom on the upper level or you can go downstairs to use I think two or three restrooms downstairs. S o, they are both

-- >> (inaudible). Okay. N ow the one thing that

-- on the lounge we talked briefly about the idea, this would also apply to things like a cafe car about self

- service areas, and whether you could actually reach them and get to them. A nd I am thinking that maybe we want to just adopt the requirement unless people have changes that they want to make that are consistent with the AVA, ABA standards for cafeterias and self

- service requirements in the facilities regs. Those are the issues can I

-- I can recall having discussed. Did I miss anything? I guess not.

(LAUGHTER) >> Dennis: O kay. Let's

-- so we are almost done folks. (LAUGHTER) >> Dennis: S o let's Garden Grove back to the issue ofrestrooms and grab bars

-- well let's start first with toilet seat

height. D o we want to talk about

-- do we have any reason why the toilet seat height should be different than it is in the buildings and facilities? W hich is 17 to 19. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair, this is Chris. I s there any difference on the (inaudible) today?
>> Blair: You mean as far as the height? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yeah.
>> Blair: C hris, I would have to check and see what the measurements are. B ut I think that they are at the lower end of the range. A nd there is no reason why they can't be there is no te chnical reason why they can't be in the right range. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, I wanted to say I don't know offhand. >> Blair: I have some drawings I am looking at now let's see if I can pull a number off of them while we are talking.
>> Dennis: M y guess is there is no real reason why they can't meet that requirement. We hear that in comment if that was the case. Let's stop that for a minute. T he lab

-- the sink control the facets. O bviously what you want they have limited water supply you obviously d on't want the faucet to be able to be left on and run because you delete the water pretty quickly. The controls on the current labs

-- on the current lavs have a push down lever. T he difficulty with those kind it works fine.But the difficulty is that you can only wash one hand at a time. (LAUGHTER) >> Dennis: Wet one hand at a time. I have this vague recollection I am not sure the Acela lav controls are infrared does anybody know? >> Blair: D ennis, no, they are not. T hey use

-- they are the timed push down faucets. A nd the problem that you get into with those timed ones. You push them down if they are working right they run for so many seconds. I s the ones that work well are horrendously expensive. T hen there is all of the
rest of them that kind of work. A nd then eventually you know, they will

-- maybe they don't run as long as they should or they stick open and run or they just won't, you push them down they come right back up. S o, at Amtrak at least we are seriously tryin g to get to the touchless faucets. A nd there is some push back on the railroad for that. We are looking at it it's sort of, if they work correctly, it takes the problems away. You know the machine is timing the thing and it shuts off and you don't have to worry about enough measure to

-- enough pressure to activate it or those kinds of things. >> Dennis: Yeah, I have seen some push controls that are really difficult to push. I mean you have to like push down from the top. T he ones on the Amtrak now are pretty good because they have a kind of a lever that's fairly easy to push down againyou have to push them down with one hand and wet one hand

and then you have to push it with the other hand and wet the other hand and so forth. S o, I think a recommend ation for the touchless infrared controls I think would be a good idea. Anybody have any objection to that? >> This is David here. Ihave no objections to that. However, I am trying to think of where I was at. I was at a hotel recently for a conference

. A nd there was a new touchless faucet where on the side of the faucet there was a little lever or control you could switch it how hot and cold you wanted it. I have never actually seen anything like that on a touchless faucet. T hat is something else yo u can consider. >> Dennis: Yeah, I have seen those on sink faucets because you do have to change the

-- in some cases when you want a drink of water you don't want hot water if you are watching your hands you don't want cold water there needs to be some temperature adjustment. O kay temperature adjustment would be lever by the actual actuation would be with infrared is that okay? T hat's

-- I will revise this

-- this agenda to cover that. A nd have we decided anything about toilet seat height? >> This is A ndre Gagne I looked at the CFR it says between 17 and 19 inches. S o, when we build cars they are within that range so if that's not an issue then it's fine with me.>> Okay. We should keep it. N ow one of the things Ed

Steinfeld said while we talk about grab bars we don't have a lot of specificity about where they are placed I am not exactly sure how to address this. B ut my idea was that grab bar that's typically accessible toilet you have grab bar one side and grab bar on the back of the toilet. T he back of the toilet grab bar was kind of thrown in many, many years ago according to Ed's discussion about where it came from as sort of an idea of somebody said oh, yeah that will work nobody has ever really tested it. I t's been the standard for many years. And I am not convinced that people actually use it. O n the other hand, in a moving train, any grab bar

-- lots of grab bars I think are a good idea. I n fact I think it would be a good idea to have vertical grab bars but I am not clear how to specify th em and lay them out has anybody got any ideas about in a?

-- about that? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Dennis, Jim can correct me if I am wrong, but why would on at least to A117 IBC vertical grab bar.
>> Does A117 have vertical grab bar? >> JIM PECHT: Yes, it's re quired on the side wall next to the toilet. A nd I believe towards the front of the shower and the tub. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: It's toward the front because it allows you to pull yourself up if you are able to stand. >> Dennis: O kay. I

-->> CHRISTOPHER HA RT: Or to catch yourself as the train

rocks back and forth. >> JIM PECHT: Use it to steady yourself. >> Blair: D ennis we started adding the vertical handholds even in restrooms that aren't considered accessible for the same reasons just so folks

-- they h ave something to steady themselves with or to help them to stand back up again. S o, I think it would be

-- I would only say that whatever we do we need to make sure it goes high enough so it's universally accessible.
>> This is Linda Martin at FRA. We re cently recommended that for a newer rail car

-- sorry somebody is at my door. A newer rail car entity in their nonaccessible restrooms where lots of elderly people will potentially be riding the cars. S o, I have somebody at my door I am going to mute my phone, thank you.
>> This is David here. N ow, I didn't hear the answer regarding

-- I guess it was something about the grab bar behind the toilet. I f that's not needed right? O r you guys going to keep that? >> Dennis: Well, this is Dennis. M y understa nding is it's not really that useful but it's been there forever. A nd I don't know whether it's worth getting rid of it and I don't know what evidence that we have

-- I mean, my impression is that people don't really use it. B ut I am not sure that it's worth getting ridof and I am not sure we could justify getting rid of it since it's

been in the standard since the ice age. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: This is Chris. Iam going to suggest the discussion we have when Marsha is available but in general, we were really moving away from things that are understood or been there 40 years without having research to back it up. I f someone wants to find research over seen bit board

-- by the board then you can maybe have a look at it. But I don't

-- my gut says that yo u guys probably do not want to make radical changes to rear or side grab bar layout. >> Dennis: O kay. I am assuming that's in the ANSI standard is that correct? >> JIM PECHT: Correct. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, the rear grab bars is A117 and IBC. >> Denni s: D oes the ANSI standard have a provision for folding grab bars. >> JIM PECHT: Not to my knowledge, Dennis. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: You know, Dennis, there might be an ASTM section on that but I can't think of anything. >> Dennis: I know folding grab bars has been an interesting idea floating around the difficulty with them in the past and why they haven't been specified necessarily is that they have structural problems possibly and they often have amain

-- a maintenance problem because you have to make su re

they are really anchored into the ground. S omebody to deploy them and put them back is sometimes a problem and when they are down or up or over or whatever they are in, in the regular position, the fact that they are latched so that they don't move, th e vertical ones fall down from the wall aren't as difficult because you are typically pushing down on them although you are also pushing to the side. A nd that's where the structural issues are. B ut grab bars like that are quite common in other places. A nd in the VIA rail line that Uwe put forth there is a vertical, a wall hung grab bar that drops down between the toilet and the shower chair which means to me would probably be a good idea. I am not sure how to specify that to except to say something like movable grab bars shall be permitted if

-- and shall meet all of the structural standards for grab bars. 2 50 pounds and whatever the things is stability and so forth. Anybody have problem with saying that we are going to allow vertical grab bars but not try to specify what they are? >> JIM PECHT: Dennis, this is Jim I would add one thing you might want to also specify when it's in the raised or up position, folded position that it doesn't stick out from the wall far enough to obstruct the clear floor space because there is a design out there that is a big U

- shaped bar that once it's folded up it sits out about 6, 8 inches from the wall.>> Dennis: T hat I encountered in Amsterdam. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: We have all seen those overseas. >> JIM PECHT: You want to make sure when it's in the folded position it doesn't construct clear floor space for transfer.
>> This is Andre Gagne I think it's during the second committee meeting I provided a document and made a presentation on toilets and t here were sketches of foldable grab bars used in Europe complete with dimensions and relative to the toilet seats they could be useful also. W hether the grab bars are fixed or foldable. Ithink they should be referenced from the toilet seat with dimensio ns so they become usable. I f you simply side that they have to behind the toilet seat they could be very far behind and become unusable. S o, this is something that should be taken into account as well, I think. >> Dennis: R ight. I think the ANSI standa rd probably covers that the issue about folding grab bars is

-- we are going to make sure that the height matches the grab bar height that we typically specify and that their position close to the toilet is such matches the same thing, you

-- you don't wan t it on the far side of the wall you want it right next to the toilet. I think we can pick those up from the ANSI standard. >> Blair: D ennis, do you want to put anything in there for the force requirements? You know maximums to deploy? >> Dennis: Yeah, that's sort of a given I am assuming thatif you deploy both putting it down and putting it up you need to

make the five

- pound force requirements that applies to almost everything else. >> Hey this is Linda Martin again, FRA. Iapologize I had somebody at my door quite a while I may have missed it. O ne of the issues we ran into maybe Blair did you touch about this at all about the pull down grab bar and the one instance in the newer accessible bedrooms, the proposal at one point was where the bar would p ull down it would be partially blocking the door to get out of the room. A nd we talked about how that wasn't really a good idea. S o I just wanted to make sure that that's a consideration. O r included. T hat it can't block

-- in its deployed position it can't block any egress ingress.
>> Blair: L inda, as far as that, in the new cars when we get the sink installed with the railings on that, we will make a final determination on how long that railing is going to be. I t will obviously shorter than it is now.
>> Linda: R ight.
>> Blair: We want to make sure what we take it back to work for its intended function. A nd you know, relieves the door issue at the same time. We are hoping that it may end up just being okay, you know, fixed in the down position so it won't be in the way. B ut, again, we have to functionally test the you know the new railing situation that we are doing.>> Linda: D id you discuss the issue about railings around

the sink? I mean I don't know that we would want to potentially require those or not but you know, that's something that we have made a suggestion in a couple of recent discussions. N ot currently required but is there any thought about whether it could be or should be? >> I think from my standpoint the rail car

-- the proble m is always if you look at architecture, there is all discrete things there is a grab bar, handrail, there is a sink, toilet there is a door. A nd because of the spatial restrictions inside of cars, it's often worth a lot spatially and functionally to start combining activities. S o, if, I would think, a good designer would try to do that anyway. B ut if we

-- if we think from a functional standpoint we should add that I think it could be good. You know, we ended up putting a lot of railing on the Acela, a nd at the end of the day the intention was that we put railing all the way around it and have everyone tell us what railing they don't want. A nd when everyone saw it they said we want it all.

(LAUGHTER). >> Blair: A nd that's why that railing goes all over the place. Iwould say, yeah, if we think from a functional standpoint on a train, because it's moving, that we should have those kind of things included where maybe they are not specified in architecture then I would say let's do it. T he onlythin g that I would say is when you add a railing say to the front

of the sink, now you are affecting the dimensions of the reachability of the sink, so that is the tricky part. Of course train sinks aren't as big as architectural sinks that may be the give an d take.
>> This is Dennis. T he problem with

-- I mean, I think we can talk in general terms about grab bars and the force requirements and those kind of things. T he actual placement of them is tricky, because it will partly depend on the design of the bathroom. I n other words, where you put the sink. I f the sink is over in a different corner as opposed to the Acela where it's right next to the toilet, then you have a different issue about where you put the grab bars. I am not sure that we can be terrib ly specific in order to allow for the design freedom. I personally like that grab bar across it both serves the toilet on the side and stability for the sink in the Acela. I t's very nice to be able to grab on to that and hang on to it. A nd I do standing transfers I also stand up at sink. T hat grab bar across the front is wonderful, because when the train is rocking back and forth it's really nice to have something to hang on to >> Linda: I t's also usable for people like myself who need assistance pulli ng forward to reach controls. S o it's

-- you know, it's

-- it would have a multi

- functional purpose, I would think.>> Dennis: Yeah, I like it. A nd I think to be too specific

about where you put them might be a hindrance because pretty soon you may get grab bars that actually interfere with. I was in a hotel once many years ago which had a quote accessible room unquote. A nd they had

-- it was like a jungle gym in the bathroom they had grab bars everywhere. T here was a grab bar that came out of the wal l and went down into the floor it's position by the toilet and the counter it was just in front of it actually made it impossible to get a wheelchair up to the toilet. So, it actually created a problem by putting too many grab bars. So, I think it's goin g to be real hard to be more explicit. I think saying something like grab bar in front of lav is a good idea. We can say that without having

-- without being too specific about how it functions in the room. A nd I am not sure how directly to be

-- to get what we want without being over prescriptive. >> Blair: D ennis, this is Blair. Would you like to say adjacent to just so it leaves flexibility of where it's located at the sink? I n some cases it can be as functional if it is to the side of the sink as directly in front of it. B ut they may wrap it up tightly enough.
>> Dennis: O kay we will try that. >> ROSE MARIE BUNALES: I wanted to let you know Frank Maldari just joined the call.>> Dennis: O kay. Welcome. >> Frank: O kay.
>> Dennis: We are done wi th the restroom I think? >> This is Andre I would like to add one comment. I think it was discussed during the previous subcommittee meeting. I see a 60

- inch turning circle.
>> Dennis: R ight. >> Andre: A nd I see Acela using as a model restroom I am
ass uming. I did a small sketch if you want a turning circle inside the Acela restroom it won't be the same restroom it will have to be repackaged. I wanted to say that I saw the sketch from Uwe I think it's in the attachments here the toilet from Uwe is des igned with a turning circle as a basic requirement so I think it's a good start it's a better start than using the Acela Express toilet.
>> Dennis: T hat's surprising because I use the Acela restroom many times and I can turn around in it and I have a fair ly big chair. I don't know what the

-- I assume the Acela had a 16

- inch turning circle.
>> It does not. I can send to you a quick sketch showing you the outside of the toilet module and the 35 by 60 clear floor
area. A nd I added to it the 60

- inch turnin g circle international compatible right now **NOTE: 1 6.>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Dennis, this is Chris. I think

it's

-- it's only found on the California cars or Dallas fort worth bi

- level commuter rail. >> Dennis: O kay. W hat I am going to do then is take out this "use Acela as a model" so we don't limit it to that particular thing is that okay with everybody? Ilike a lot of other things about the Acela as a design. I think it's a great restroom but
o kay. >> Blair: D ennis this is Blair do you want to make the Acela even though it doesn't have the 60

- inch radius do you want to make that the new minimum benchmark? Imean if it's functional but doesn't have the 60? I guess the risk is that with

-- it w ill never get to 60 if we don't do that. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair I suggest that on the

-- you already got them so maybe the starting point is to look at the PRIIA and (inaudible) the California capitol car. >> Well I looked at some of the materials the PRIIA sent out. W hat I see in the diagram of the restroom in the PRIIA car is the old nonaccessible, accessible restroom in the current design. W hich is long and narrow. A nd basically requires a standing transfer and the toilet is in the corner. S o I d idn't see the PRIIA car as adopting anything in my view is an accessible restroom. I think the problem is they went back to their standard the current guidelines said okay let's make sure wecomply the problem is the current guidelines aren't very

accessi ble. O ne of the issues that I wanted to specifically address is that we get a way from that design because it doesn't really work. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Dennis, I am not sure what you are looking at because there was substantial discussion and Uwe and Gary and Richard I think were all (inaudible) a couple days being in DC we were going to rest

-- going through restroom designs, and so I am not quite sure how you get what you got. But we are in a different place. >> Okay I will look at it again. I will take out the Acela model issue so we don't confuse people with what we are looking at. O kay. Single level dining cars any problems or additions of things that we want to put in there. >> JIM PECHT: Before you move on I have a couple of questions for Blair if I could.
>> Sure. >> JIM PECHT: Blair, I seem to remember up in after RailPlan to look at the mockups up there is that what we are talking about with regards to the Acela model or what Dennis is talking about on the current vehicle? >> Blair: I t's on the current vehicle Jim. >> JIM PECHT: We haven't seen what you guys were sort ofhatching up in RailPlan as yet I am assuming? >> Blair: I n real plan, I think there was

-- I believe it was the Boston show as well, interior show, is the restroom we have done for our bi

- level older bi

- level coaches, that we will address as they go through for major upgrades. >> JIM PECHT: Right.
>> Blair: I am trying to find the drawing for that now to see what the floor space is. B ut I think it has a 60

- inch circle. >> JIM PECHT: They put in a curved door specifically to achieve that as I remember.
>> I looked at the PRIIA document, and it has a restroom with a curved wall curved door but I don't know that it is you know it's not dimensions so it doesn't really

-- the picture
-- so it may be what had Dennis concerned. >> JIM PECHT: The other thing is that I also remember up in RailPlan I know you guys are going to the touchless faucets but I
seen
-- and maybe this is a dream my fevered brain had you were looking at touchless soap dispensers as well is that true or am I dreaming? >> Blair: Yes, that is true. A nd we have like the Acela already has a hand dryer as well as paper towels. A nd we are looking at most of those applications where they make sense. We just did a proto type application of a touchless soap dispenser on a car and it was installed and the first time it got toa maintenance point somebody took it off because who knows. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair: B ut maybe it was putting soap every where I don't know. B ut we are looking at those things because it's a growing concern not only for

-- from an accessibility standpoint but from a cleanliness standpoint. You wash your hands and your hands are nice and clean and then you turn the facet off it's contaminated. We are looking at those things for a lot of
reasons. >> Okay. Ijust bring it up because Dennis you may want to think about language as far as allows those things and not prohibiting them.
>> Okay.
>> Blair: I hope they get more reliable they are wonderful whe n they work but a nuisance when they don't.
>> They are just a lump of steel if they don't >> That's right it's a wish point. >> Dennis: O kay. S ingle level dining cars anybody got questions, different things to add from what is in there? We haven't real ly talked about the storage issue. A nd the other section we talked about the clear floor space for wheelchair. There was some discussion, this was in accessible route circulation path about storage and what the dimensions of that storage unit should be. But that hasn't coalesced and I am notsure that there is anything about storage necessarily in the

dining car. >> This is David here. Real quick, I do have a question. The agenda says a table for two wheelchairs. N ow, is that accurate? I s that what we are looking to do? >> Dennis: T hat's what I recall as having something that everybody sort of generally came into agreement on. A nd the reason that I put this down in the in the agenda I want to make sure that we actually say we agree this is the report that we want to give to the committee before we go forward. >> Blair: D ennis this is Blair. To that point, I am fumbling around on my computer trying to find floor plans adds we talk about these things so I can make state ments in the absence of that, what we have done and I will just quickly run through when we started working on the new diners, it was very compact. A nd what we

-- we ultimately came to is you can't be very compact and have real accessibility. S o, we ende d up with the condition that

-- from a capacity standpoint is going to be heart breaking for the food service folks but they will have to live with it. B ut you can now come through the door and maneuver into a table with relative ease. A nd I think, I have got to verify the dimensions that once someone is at the table, there is still room for someone to come in and transfer to a seat, another table, and park a full size

-- I mean park the wheelchairin a full size space. I don't know

-- I don't think with out taking

out more seating that we can have two accessible wheelchair accessible tables. A nd deal with the maneuverability issues. We tried doing cantilever tables and by the time that you get the structure strong enough to really work as a cantilever you are fighting with the dimension, the top and under dimension of having under dimension high enough, and keeping the top from being too high. A s you can imagine. Versus just having the table with the legs so it's very thin profile. S o, I will, as we a re talking I will try to dig it up and see, do some quick measurements, but that would be my only concern. I haven't looked at it from the standpoint of, you know, can we do that, and have folding seats for the times that no one is there in a wheelchair o r wishes to transfer but that would be my only concern is that we just have a greater impact on very limited seating space in the diner to begin with. >> Dennis: S o you are thinking we can only do one is that it? >> Blair: I will

-- let me look more clos ely at it. T he way that I have it right now I know that I can get

-- someone can roll right up to one of the tables and then they have an option of probably two tables that can be transferred to and still keep an unfolded wheelchair in the car. T hat was a big concern that you know you can't

-- you can't assume that you are going to putthe wheelchair back in the vestibule away from the person. S o,

now we have got that condition. Let me look at it and see if there is a

-- you know what the real potential impact is of doing two chairs fully parked at the tables. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim there is currently in the standard a requirement for spaces in both regular coach seat and for dining car booths or table seats but the way it's written it presumes that t he wheelchair can be folded >> Yeah that's the way the statute reads. Storage space for foldable wheelchairs it doesn't assume that a manual wheelchair that doesn't fold can necessarily be stored in that space. I am not sure what you do with it. P resuma bly there maybe some space for luggage and what not that a chair might fit in but I am not sure about that >> JIM PECHT: Well the standard doesn't specify size in any event even if the chair does fold it may not fit in the space provided.
>> Dennis: T hat' s right. T here was some talk in one of the other subcommittees about specifying something like a 24

- inch width for example. T hat was the closest anybody got to what that space would actually look like in terms of how deep it is and how high it is and so forth. S o, that's

-- that's an issue that has not yet been finalized. S o, okay so the

-- so I am going to say that we have agreed that there is at least one is thatright? Of each? S pace for at least one wheelchair and at least

one transfer seat. >> Li nda from FRA like you said Dennis, it's in the statute that it be that it be at least that at least for the dining cars we certainly can't go below that. >> Dennis: R ight.
>> Blair: T his is Blair, I think though the old the old language around the fold a nd store, I don't know if staying with folded is

-- from a provider standpoint it's a nice number to stick with from practicality standpoint does it really serve people you know to have that. You know, if

-- how many wheelchairs today or mobility aids act ually you know can go to any level of being compact? O bviously some do, but I don't know if we are thinking about the old standard folding you know Everest and Jenning

- style wheelchair that that is even reasonable to leave in there. T hat gets back to what size do we want to store.
>> Yes, the statute says space to store a wheelchair. S o, the assumption was that it would be the old standard folding EMJ or stainless chair. B ut you are right, today there are a lot of chairs that don't fold up. I guess the assumption would be if it doesn't fold there is no require to director director requirement to store it anywhere I am not sure what you do with that issue. Obviously if you have got only one person in a chair who wants to transfer you can put the chair i n the space that would be forthe seated wheelchair. I used to do that a lot in long trips as I

would transfer out of my chair into the seat because it was more comfortable. I f you have more than one person you can't do that. >> This is David here. S o, I have got a question for Linda Martin. I s it possible to go through the rulemaking to collect comments on whether or not we need to have a storage space for folding wheelchairs? >> Linda: Well, first of all, I mean what is on the statute is what is in t he statute. I mean, you can't go below what's in the statute without changing the statute. B ut if you are talking about the procedure that the Access Board follows or procedure that FRA would follow after the Access Board develops guidelines, because tho se are two separate things and if it's the first probably the Access Board should answer that question. So I am happy to probably answer it for them but shouldn't. >> No, no, you made it clear. Iwasn't

-- I think I got it mixed up with the Access Board and FRA. S o, if Access Board recommends that we don't need a storage space, then that could not even be done correct? T he FRA can't undo the statute. >> Linda: R ight the Access Board or FRA can't undo the statue you have to provide one space for someone who wishes to stay in the wheelchair and at least one space for someone who wishes to transfer and at least one space for that person tostore and fold his wheelchair. A nd you know, so that's really

two spaces but then also a space for a person to transfer to. So, it's sort of 3 elements.
>> No, I got you, okay. >> Dennis: T he current reg says the transfer seat can be a standard seat there is nothing special about the seat.
>> Linda: R ight but we recently recommended if there are armrests on chairs that at least one of those armrests be raiseable or removable so that the transfer space is a true transfer space. B ut seats don't often have an outer armrest in any case if they do they should be raiseable. >> Dennis: O kay.
>> Linda: S o that is maybe some thing useful to have in guidance. G uidelines. >> Dennis: O kay. We will redo that part to say at least
one. S leeping compartments. H ave we got anything that's in there that we want to change or

-- >> Linda: I have to pop off for a 2 o'clock I can't ge t out of so sorry.
>> Dennis: O kay. T hank you for coming.
>> Linda: A ll right, okay. >> Dennis: Let's go back to one of the questions what is the proper height of the bed is 18 inches reasonable for kind of an average wheelchair seat height?>> CHRISTO PHER HART: Dennis I might suggest that we

ask Blair and his crew to put what a (inaudible) without taking an average number until we know what is in use today. >> Blair: T his is Blair, Chris. Let me get that number I want to say it's 17. B ut let me veri fy that. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair, is it 17 without cushion or with the cushion.
>> Blair: T hat would be to the top of the cushion. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: That seems low to me but maybe it is.
>> Blair: Well, yeah, if you think about 17 even being at th e low end for a toilet and that's a hard surface, so, if you have a cushion that immediately is going to give, you know, an inch or more when you start to try to move through it. T he static height probably needs to be higher so it functions for transfer. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Right. >> This is David here. N ow, Chris, I think that the 17 inches is because a lot of our sleeper cars, it's a convertible

-- let me rephrase. O kay, so, our seating is 17 inches from the floor up, and it's

-- it becomes or turns i nto a bed. >> CAROL BRADLEY: Right. >> David: T hat's why it's 17 inches. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, yes. O f course typically mostoffice chairs have 18 inches

-- >> David: H mm. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: So, if Blair could get back to us after checking his var ious modules that would be very helpful.
>> Blair: T hat would be helpful. B ut the question here is what do we want to recommend as being a good height. I f 17 inches what they do but 18 inches is better for accessibility don't we want to recommend the be tter accessibility standard? And then the comment can be well we can't do that. We can only do this. T hat's the question. >> Blair: D ennis, this is Blair. I would say let's put the numbers to your point let's put the numbers in there that it needs to be. I think it will still be within the range of seating height. I think now it's probably toward the low end for anyone so, I would say let's put the number in there and I would seriously consider describing the static height because of that whole cushi oning aspect when you are making a transfer. I f the static height needs to be higher leave it higher let's go back and look at it because it is a convertible typically convertible seat that converts to a bed when it folds up there is usually behind the sofa there is controls and things and so and lights. S o, when

-- if the whole thing is taller. I t compresses that available space. I t needs to be handled a little bit differently. We have some conditions where the controls are to the left andright of th e sofa versus being along the top back edge. I would

say pick the number that everyone is comfortable with and we figure out you know what if any impact there is to the rest of the activity. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim another way to specify it could possib ly you do the maximum height uncompressed the minimum height compressed. >> This it is Frank I was wondering where is the 18 inches come from that you have there.
>> Dennis: T hat's a standard for average wheelchair height. W heelchair seating is higher or lower my seat is about 20 inches but I am tall, but 18 inches is sort of a standard height for wheelchair seat. >> Frank: I was looking at human scale they have the range 18 to 20. >> JIM PECHT: It's also dead center for of the transfer range for the bui lding stuff. >> Frank: R ight would you want the bed to be lower or higher or right at that height?

(LAUGHTER) >> Dennis: I deally it would be adjustable. W hen we did

-- when we were writing the original ADAAG I did the analysis of the comments that c ame in on toilet seats, for example, which were 17 to 19 and there weren't a lot ofcomments but half said it should be higher and half said it

should be lower. S o we figured we probably get it in the middle. T he problem is that it's not. I t's going dow n to a lower height in one direction it's not so bad but that means that you are
-- you get the other way. S o, unless you have an adjustable thing you move up when you want to transfer and move down from the other you have to pick a number somewhere in th e middle.
>> 18 is about right. >> Yeah.
>> And just so you know that the justice department has an open AMPRM looking at hotel bed heights don't ask whether they will go forward on that. B ut that's

-- >> A lot of hotels decided they want the pillow top
m attresses which adds 2 inches or more to the height. A nd there have been hotels I have been in I couldn't get on the bed >> They sink down at least that much. S o I am wondering if it's harder to get up if they lower the bed anyway. >> Dennis: Let me put in the 18 and we will see what kind of comments people have and it would be nice to know whether it's a

-- that's a problem as opposed to what Amtrak currently does, we are interested in whether this is going to be a difficult, and

-- manufacturer's for t he cars, it's not Amtrak, it's Bombardier and others about whether that is difficult in terms ofdesign.
>> This is David here. S o, rather than locking down a specific number for the bed, could we make a reference to ADAAG, and the ADAAG already has the i nformation regarding hotel beds in there

-- >> JIM PECHT: No it does not. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: No.
>> Dennis: N o. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: That's why there is an open ruling from the DOJ. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. T he only thing ADAAG has for beds is the space next to it doesn't have anything about height in most hotels or many hotels the bed itself a is a movable piece of furniture which the standard doesn't cover. >> Blair: T his is Blair from Amtrak. A nother thing to keep in mind too, when the sofa fo lds down and becomes a bed there is actually maybe two

- inch mattress pad put on top of it to take out the

-- to compensate for the joints between the cushion that make up the bed so that adds a little bit to it as well. S o, its height and seat versus a be d is a little different to begin with. Iwould still say, if we want to give it a range then knowing it's comfortable we give it a range that takes that into account then that's probably maybe a good way to go forward. And I would

-- pick the numbers that it needs to be I don't thinkthere is going to be strong drivers, I can't think of any that kind

be overcome. We are talking about new cars or major retrofits. I don't

-- I can't think of anything that can't be overcome. I n that scenario. T he worst c ase the bed might get a little bit narrower because where the back goes when it's in the up position. We are not talking a huge amount. >> Okay. W hat about

-- are we done with sleepers? I personally think there should be an over riding

-- whether the
co ntrol should be on a handheld device that's cable connected. All of the lights can be turned off all of the H vac that is separate I am not going to worry about specifying that.
>> Blair: W hen we talk about the controls being accessible I don't want

-- I want to make sure that we don't eliminate a remote control device from the options. Iknow there was some discussion before and personally I think the greatest flexibility for everyone who might be traveling is going to be some sort of a remote control j ust because of the nature of the multifunctions that occur inside of the car. I am worried if we don't have the flexibility we are going to end up with controls all over the place and not to beat a technical horse having multiple switches isn't as easy as you might think when you are trying to keep things reliable at the same time. S o, I just want to say be sure we don't eliminate remote controls from the

-- from the discussion.>> Yeah, I wouldn't either. T he only reason people were

thinking about it wa s somebody walks off with the control if it's truly portable. A nd that's an issue I guess that you have to continually replace them kids will think they are great fun to play with. I f it's hard wired with a handy cable you are right I want to leave the o ption expressly state that you already said redundant controls are okay meaning that you don't have to have the controls for the lights of the upper bunk can be up there you also have the controls somewhere else that's accessible. B ut I want to make sure that you are right that we allow the option of remote of some sort. E ither hard wired or whatever.
>> And just to

-- I don't want to beat a dead horse, for example, when we built the first view liners we put in membrane switches and there is actually a co ntrol brain box for the room lights that's a $1200 device, they made them for the cars and quit making them it's the classic railroad disaster. B ut we found they were problematic over time some people didn't like them you got minimal tactile feedback from the switches. A nd they were electrically complex. T his time around we have gone back to try to improve switches. A nd in architecture that tends to work very well. B ut when you go to the third switch for a light, the first two are easy the third switch and the fourth switch become very, very complex unless you go back to acontroller system. A nd the size of the switches is insane.

They are just

-- they are big and, you are dealing in trains with walls that are not architecturally thick. S o, all of th e standard stuff we think about with electrical devices goes out the window. So, again, it's one of those very frustrating things where we want to do something, but we just keep running up against the spatial issues. S o, again, that would make remote con trol devices all the more viable in the long run, I think. >> This is David here. Ithink maybe if you want to kind of add remote or other electronic devices such as like a tablet or a smartphone, a mobile device, that could be used linked via WI/FI or bl uetooth for future technology purposes. B ecause a lot of us will be having our own personal devices and who knows maybe we could be able to download something just to control the room. I t's just kind of something that I want to throw out there as an open regulation. >> Dennis: G ot it, okay. A nything about the lounge that needs to be

-- the lounge car is probably where the circulation folks are going to want to put a vertical access but that's not this committee's issue. >> Dennis just a reminder you do have signal level lounge is

-- risers

-- on the Acela the (inaudible) is often the best place to be for

-- single

- level lounge. T hat's the best place to be during the ride.>> Dennis: O kay. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: And I believe in the past inquired about ac cessible seating and other issues in the lounge cars. >> I wrote down in the lounge space for two are we going to say at least one? G iving up on the two? >> Blair: D ennis, this is Blair. O n bi

- level cars and I apologize I don't have the reg in front of me. Were they written for two people in wheelchairs? B ecause I know the super liner 2's were built with a space intended so that you could

-- you could accommodate two people to stay in wheelchairs. I t gives you the greatest flexibility. A nd you can al so there was a place to fold and store wheelchairs. A nd so it's usually a little less of an issue in lounges because it's more open leisurely seating anyway. >> Right. I am trying to remember now what we say about lounge cars. T he lounge car has require ment that you have to be

-- this is a bi

- level lounge car you have to be able to enter from the platform there has to be boar on the lower level of the lower level has a restroom I don't recall whether it's included in the passenger coaches. T he coaches a re the ones that say, at least one but no more than two. B ut I am not sure that that is covered by lounge cars. I would have to look it up. Idon't have it in front of me. M y recollection is it's not. T he lounge cars and dining cars are not considered part of the passengerload.>> Blair: R ight. T he bi

- levels, and I was around early

when some of this stuff was being done or as it was being sorted out. B ut the bi

- level lounges or bi

- level definitions weren't as thorough by far as the single levels. It's always been troublesome from a design standpoint. B ecause, again, it's nice to

-- it's nice to know what that you are doing is correct. B ut if it does

-- if you don't have anything to go by, you always are wondering did we do the right thing.
>> I k now I had discussions years ago with Caesar who was redesigning the lounge car to make it accessible. T he bi

- level lounge car the lower part to make it accessible. A nd his comment to me was that after he redesigned it to make it accessible it was a bette r car. I n his opinion. B etter design. >> Blair: Well it worked out well because the old cars. Original superliner lounges were horribly congested an the through put was terrible because you just

-- everyone ended up bunched up in one spot trying to get food and things there was no place to turn yourself around walking much less with a wheelchair to go back to your seat or up stairs. W hat we did the lower level was intended to be accessible from end to end because the accessible restroom was at the oppo site end from the food service point. A nd you could go into the food service area and it had the tray service railing like you would find in acafeteria and a horse shoe shape. A nd there wasn't a lot of

hard definition for some of the dimensions. S o we sort of thought we did the best we could at the time and made it as self

- service as independent was we could. >> Dennis: O kay. I have written down that we should use the self

- service requirements for ABA, ADA guidelines for cafeterias anybody have proble ms with that I don't have them in front of me I don't know if anybody looked at them. D oes anybody know whether there are difficulties with those

-- they talk about self

- service and what not. D oes anybody have any reasons why we shouldn't essentially imp ort those into this position? >> Blair: D ennis, this is Blair. T he only

-- I was in one of our superliner 2 cars not long ago I was looking at it had not been on one of them in a while and I was really not sure if we were doing it today looking at the fo od service requirements would it work would it comply. I know that we use that as a guideline. T here was this fellow Dennis Cannon who told us if it wasn't well defined in the rail regs do your best to match the architectural regs that is what we went after. B ut I don't know without measuring it how that would work. T he reason that I say that is, it gets back to the spatial issues, there is refrigerated space underneath the service counter and tray rail that is the restocking, it's the cold storage for everything that is above therail. A nd I don't know if you went in there and applied the

architectural dimensions strictly if you would have the full maneuvering room because it's two inside corners. I would just throw that out. We could certainly take the architectural regs and apply it and see what it does. A nd I would be glad to give you for the committee work the superliner 2 floor plans as they are and we can pick them apart. >> That would be good.
>> This is David here. I 'm sorry, I kind of wante d to go back real quick I looked at the agenda did we overlook one part of the eye agenda regarding the sleeper car? You said you were talking about using the VIA rail model as the sample of the design, did you

-- >> Right.
>> David: D id you mention that? >> Dennis: I mentioned it and then

-- the drawing is down below in which Uwe put the two pieces together that we had last time. Yes, I guess we passed over that I sort of thought that was a good model but anybody have any question about whether or not that's a good or bad model? >> David: Well, actually, I looked at

-- sorry I might have missed this from the last meeting. I looked at the diagram, and the VIA rail rooms seem to be much bigger than Amtrak. >> Dennis: Yes, they are.>> David: S o, I got the updated information regarding the

new single

- level bedrooms. T hey are a little bit bigger than Amtrak but they are still below the VIA rail. A nd I think I know why the VIA rail is on a larger scale. I t's because they use an L shape seating or sofa if you want to call it. S o, those two become two beds. N ow, ours we don't do that. We have the sofa that becomes a bed for one person and then we have an upper berth for a second bed. S o, I think that makes all of the difference. >> Dennis: Well, Uwe has it that L shaped was not being eliminated it was not actually in

-- >> Sorry Dennis, say it again, you are starting to break up.
>> Uwe last time said last time the L shape was in the original design it was not in the current design. T he difference be tween the two has to do with the turning circle when the bed is deployed. F rom the drawing below the agenda, there is a blue line that indicates where the bed is when it's deployed. S o it comes out from the wall a certain distance. A nd the issue is to m ake sure there is a turning circle when it's down. R ight now in the current Amtrak design, there is a turning circle, I don't know how big it is. B ut you can turn around in the room when the bed is not deployed. W hen it's just a couch. A s soon as you p ut it down, the turning circle disappears. S o, that's the basic reason why the length of this via rail is bigger than thecurrent Amtrak design. T he other difference between the

current Amtrak design and single level is that in

-- there is no turning circle inside the restroom. >> David: O kay, wait. I think that depends because the superliner yes there is but single level old view liner no there isn't. We are going to be actually replacing those later, though.
>> Dennis: R ight. A nd what we have now i s in the current regulation, we have referenced a drawing that's essentially the old view liner. W hat we want to make sure that we do is get rid of that drawing, and put in whatever the latest version is, if there is a better version if we had drawings from the new Amtrak standard that would be good to have we could use that too. I reference the Via Rail only because that's the only one we have right now that shows an accessible compartment with internal toilet room. A nd that has the maneuvering clearanc es. B ut if there is another one from Amtrak that would be actually better than the Via Rail. >> David: T hat would be a Blair question. D o you have the latest drawings Blair? >> Blair: I was just going to say that I will take the existing superliner and the new cars that (inaudible) is building and get those to you with the turning circles superimposed. I did want to say, though, looking at where that blue line is, it looks like maybe what they are doing and I will just explain, ifyou took the cushion that we see in that bedroom, and double

it, then that's what the Amtrak bed does. B ut it looks like maybe what Via is doing is they are maintaining their circulation space by laking

-- by making the bed smaller. W hich you know if everybody wants a smalle r bed we can certainly do that.

(LAUGHTER) >> That may be true that's one of the issues that I think we need to look at carefully. I would like to see a drawing from the latest many track thinking about how you are going to design this thing to get a reasonable bed and a turning circle when it's down.
>> Yes, I will

-- I will extract that in the

-- from the drawings and put in a dash line or something to indicate the bed down and then the 60 inch circle superimposed in the room so that we can have that discussion. >> Okay. >> Blair: You know, maybe it's something that we have not seen yet is what it needs to be at least we can talk about things as a minimum. >> David: T his is David here, thank you. >> Dennis: O kay. D o we need to talk about anything else?>> JIM PECHT: Do you want to take the self

- service areas and add them into the dining car on a where provided basis?>> Dennis: I am not sure that that is still

-- I don't think

they have them in the dining car I think that's now considered to be a cafe car is that right Blair. Two different things the dining where people sit at tables and then there is a cafe car which may have a snack bar and may have stable tables at one end or may have some sort of like in the Talgo it's like a bar. You have l ittle areas where people can kind of sit on the stools and there isn't really anything there maybe a table that folds out of the wall. >> Blair: D ennis, this is Blair. O ne of the great confusions from the original ADA was there is a lot of conversation a bout single

- level food service cars. A nd then there is, you know, a little conversation about diners, and bi

- level diners, and then a little bit about lounges. B ut the

-- I think we were all working on what we knew at the time. A nd so the single level food service car kind of kind of help muddy the waters at the same time. O ur single level food service cars was a mix of coach seats and tables and things like that. B ut you are right, there is a lot more flexible food service now you know with small, little bars bistro

- type bar seating and things like that. I think the

-- I think the key to capturing things without going and trying to design the cars is going to be to use language that, that, I would say if there is a type of seating provided in the vehi cle that some quantity of that type ofseating needs to be provided for wheelchair access. A nd then

the challenge is to the designers to figure out how to do that. I know we did some of that with some converted cars and with the Acelas. A nd it ended up giving us you know, it sort of made us break away from the old concept of pack as much into the car as you can. A nd freed us up to leave the car so that you could actually move around in it and not be so congested. When you are talking about nonrevenue c ars like lounges where there is no

-- there is no ticketed seating, the flexibility is much greater because the revenue pressure is off. You want folks to come in and enjoy themselves. >> Dennis: O kay. S o I am thinking we want to conclude some issues ab out the self

- service part we talked about in the dining car, where was that? >> This is

-- >> Dennis: T he lounge the self

- service areas and guidelines from ABA, ADA cafeteria and also include an issue about maybe we should call it

-- you are right food se rvice cart doesn't really say much. N ot sure how to capture that. >> Chris, this is Linda Martin at FRA I rejoined. >> Dennis: O kay.
>> Linda: T hanks. >> Dennis: I interrupted somebody who started to say it was bomb become>> This is Andre I found in t he regs it's chapter 38.111

inter

- city rail cars and systems it says bi

- level lounge cars shall have at least one space complying with the regs so right now you are increasing that space the quantity of space to two instead of minimum 1 maximum of 2, corre ct? >> Right. Well, that was the recommendation. T he question is whether it's go to fly or not, I don't know.
>> Andre: O kay. >> Dennis: O kay. Let me put some things about cafeterias try to deal with this issue of food service bistros and what not. We talked about types of seating available, at least some should be meet the requirements for wheelchair users and transfer. A nd

-- >> Hey Dennis this is Linda Martin again at FRA I don't know if anybody about theed out the guidance that OST put out regard ing bistro and lounge cars where there is nothing in the regulation applying the ADAAG standards. T here is guidance they put out last year or so in response to questions on this topic, where there was uncertainty about what the requirements would be for t hese sort of newer bistro type of cars where there might be self

- service elements.
>> Dennis: C an you send me a link to that? >> Linda: S ure. >> Dennis: I see, send it to Jim.>> Linda: I can do that.
>> That would be great. >> Blair: L inda, this is Blair I am curious with that guide dance now that we are actively talking about these things is there reasonable opportunity to

-- where there is

-- where the architectural guidelines may be extreme when applied to a rail car? I s this the opportunity t o give definition where there was none before? A nd sort of making more sense out of that? Achieving the sort of the goal of what that guidance was but really strictly applies it to rail? >> Dennis: I think this

-- this is Dennis. Ithink that's exactly what we need to do.
>> Blair: T hinking about it, that guidance sort of filled a void and opened up a Pandora's box all at once.
>> Linda: T his is Linda again, what the guidance says is that you refer to those standards unless it's not feasible based
on the geometric constraints of a rail car design. I t anticipated that being an issue but didn't spell out where that might be an issue because it wasn't just mainly to let entities know hey don't forget about other elements if there is not something specifi c in the regulation because you know back in '91 there were
no
-- there were dining cars and not bistros, these other things that evolved since then. >> Blair: I understand that the only thing is if there issome areas that in architecture

-- well, feasi bility and

practicality and all of that stuff, from the design viewpoint, if there is places that we can reasonably nail things down then I think we are, with respect to rail, I think we are way ahead of the gape. T hen you don't get into the soft part of trying to argue what is feasible and what isn't. A nd with no firm stake in the ground to say, today, that we did something and that design was good and it was approved because there is no approval process then you get down 10 years or 5 years or two years you are still making the same justifications over and over again to the feasibility of something that was done in the past. A nd it just

-- you never get away from it. S o any place that we can firm things up between the architectural and nonexistence of rail regs, I think we are

-- it makes life easier going forward. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. T hat's exactly what we are hoping that you guys will do.
>> The age old battle between lawyers and engineers. (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: No. (LAUGHTER) >> Wh at I am hoping to do is take the architectural drawings

-- requirements and essentially then discuss them and try to come up with the limits that say, well, okay that's a good idea but it doesn't

-- in ability but it work on a car here is whywe need to adjust it to be some other number instead of that.

And that's the kind of thing that I think we want to come up with ultimately. >> Dennis, I agree. Ijust wanted to clarify that. T hat
was
-- that the guidance letter was

-- that we could manage it what we were going to do would actually help that guidance. >> Right.
>> David here I got a question for Linda. S o, about the OST, OST guidance letter, now has the FRA issued

-- I don't know what the proper terminology would be. B ut have they issued like a tech nical manual or a technical spec for those points raised? F or example, the cafe car counter has to be lower according to whichever or whatever it says in the ADAAG. And then do we have anything like that with technical specs? Because I think

-- because I can think of 3, 4 maybe 5 things that should have been

-- should have been done in our existing rail cars. >> To answer your question, no there isn't. A ll of the guidance

-- all that the guidance says is that where you don't have a standard you can look for

-- to the ADAAG building standards as guidance for what the number should be. L ike the height of a counter top. I t doesn't say it has to be that. I t says if you don't have a number, and you are looking for a number of what might be accessible, look at the building standards for anumber. I t's, yeah it's not prescriptive at all. >> Okay. Iguess because I was involved with a PRIIA committee there was one issue that I'm sorry raised

-- I had raised many times over they said, and I wish I could use o r I wish I used OST as an argument but now I think that's kind of

-- that kind of got lost it was approved as part of the PRIIA standards. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: And this is Chris, just to be clear, (inaudible) can clarify if I am mistaken part of the reason why this guidance was issued was there was there was considerable progress in some areas including PRIIA where it became obvious that there need to be a very explicit directive by FRA to make sure, if it wasn't in the regs you could refer to the building regs.
>> Linda: R ight, right, the other argument we get occasionally if it's not in there we don't have to do anything at all. T hat's not the point it's supposed to be usable by. T hat's in the part 37. S o, yes. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: (inaudible) see no evil hear no evil but they forget the general law of nondiscrimination always applies.
>> Linda: C orrect. >> Dennis: A re we done? >> Dennis? W hat about

-- I was thinking you know cafeterias and stuff and tray rails and things how about vending machines? I don't know that anything is said in the current railregs I know there are vending machines on trains now that is apt

to expand over time in some areas >> At the

-- that's a DOJ regulation. >> Dennis: Well the problem

-- well, it's tricky vending machi nes in many ways are furniture, so, those aren't regulated by the guidelines those are covered by DOT and DOJ issues. The difference, however, is things like fair vending machines which are you know arguably vending machines, they are covered in the stand ard and some question has to do with whether you can really do that. W hether the standard should or should not

-- we sort of dodged that issue in writing the standards in part because those things aren't really movable. They are

-- they are cabled heavil y into the floor while they look like vending machines you can't just put them on a dolly and wheel it out of the building. T he question is the vending machines in a train car, I am not sure what they are. We have in the new ADA, ABA guidelines there are things, discussions about

-- I don't know what the standard is, for point of sale machines there is efforts to try to regulate those kinds of things. But they basically have to deal with things like approach area you know clear floor space in front of th em and the height of the controls to reach them. >> Okay. Well

-- >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just to be clear DOT has someopen efforts going on for self

- service transaction machines that

are kiosk and airports and Jim can tell the folks on where the board is with the self

- service transaction machines. >> Blair: T his is Blair again. J ust to go back to Chris's definition of what we are allowed to touch in our work, if you take the car and pick it up and shake it what falls out is not part of our work. B ut in the case of rail cars, if you shake the car and the vending machine comes out there are at least folks

-- >> You are in trouble.
>> Folks are really upset. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair: I would say I will take a bold stand and say if it's a vending machine inside of a train, it is as much a part of that train as any component that gets applied. S o I would say it's within our range to

-- to recommend requirements. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim with the Access Board there are standards both scoping and technical in the guidelines and standards for vending machines they are for the fixed or built in machines. S o I would say those would be very applicable to what we are talking about if you got a vending machine bolted to the car it's not moving it's a fixed thing you could probably apply the standard to it. T he standard like Dennis said clear floor space and operable parts that apply to it.
>> Blair: I want to make sure that we capture that becauseit was sort of an oddity 20

- some years ago that you would do

that in a real car. >> JIM PECHT: You could probably make that a subsection of yourself serve areas. >> This is Linda FRA that has come up a couple of times with a few entities about vending machines so they definitely are being put on rail cars. >> JIM PECHT : Folks this is Jim you have 9 minutes left in the call. >> Dennis: R ight. S o, I am going to take all of that together and I am going to redo this what started out to be an agenda, and we will try to get it around everybody and see if I captured all of t he stuff that we are looking for.
>> Dennis to clarify my homework to send you information, I am going to send you single level dining car floor plans, that shows options of what we went through. B i

- level lounge floor plans of what is existing. A nd, also , the sleeper foot

-- floor plan with in all cases with the 60

- inch turning circle. Superimposed. >> I think if Ed Steinfeld were on the call you need to change the 60 inch circle you need to make it bigger for new mobility aids my Guthrie action is in th e confined space of the rail car that may not be doable. I t may mean some of these bigger mobility aids are going to have to do a lot morejockeying back and forth to turn around. Iam not sure we can

do a lot about that. >> Blair: We will run out of ca r somewhere. >> Dennis: Yeah. Well they have these motor

-- RVs where the walls you know kind of crank out and expand so you could have the wall expand out and then as soon as you go you are going to pass a train on the other track it has to be contracte d in.
>> That would be an adventure. (LAUGHTER) >> Dennis this is Frank I had a question about the power door controls 12 inches. >> 12 inches from inside corner, so you don't

-- you have a corner there you don't want to put it in so close because the front of my chair the footrests are going to stop me from getting up close. I f you put a way in the corner I am going to have a hard time reaching it, it needs to be back 12 inches from the

-- outside corner is fine inside corner needs to be back where I can reach it.
>> The problem is if you look at some of our bathrooms that we have, the door that the closing edge of the door is at the corner of the bathroom. S o every inch that you move the handle away from the corner is another inch longer that you
nee d to make the door in order to have the same clear opening.Because

-- if you can picture a sliding door in your mind. I f

you put, for example, that the handle 12 inches away from the corner, and you still leave the edge in the same area. T hat door has got to be 12 inches longer.
>> Andre: T here is a solution to that power doors you could have a pushbutton properly located to actuate the opening of the door. >> Right. B ut you still need a handle in case the power door operator doesn't work. S ometimes things break down. Especially power door operators >> Right. >> The person to get into the bathroom still if the power door or get out of the bathroom which might be more important. S o, you still have to account for that, that's where the concern comes i n putting a handle that you can actually use in that area. >> I don't think we are talking the handle door for the latch. We are talking about the control in the power mode. >> Dennis: We can't necessarily plan for all equipment failure. We do say thing s like there has to be a manual override but I am not sure that that

-- I think we can clarify the issue we are not concerned with that being necessarily the thing that I normally open the door with. Iam assuming that if there is power failure there is g oing to be some personnel around andsomething and emergency situations are different from standard

operating procedures.
>> The manual override device wouldn't have to meet that requirement.
>> That's my idea, yeah. >> Blair: I would like to say I am amazed because you know Long Island has equipment failures here at Amtrak we never have equipment failures.

(LAUGHTER) >> That's true, that's true. >> Right? I wish.
>> The other quick question I have for you Dennis is the 60 inch turning circle I understand why you added it, it winds up
-- you wind up losing more than you would think as a result of that. T he question was did 35 by 60, do you know where that came from? >> Dennis: 3 5 by 60.
>> The clear floor space currently required.
>> In t he bathroom >> Sorry in the bathroom.
>> It was a guess. (LAUGHTER)
>> The idea was to

-- we were looking at the issue of the current reg which basically puts the design which puts the aisledown the center. A nd the idea was how much space can we

sque eze out of there, we made a little wider which is the 35 that was basically determined by that is how much space you could get, period. A nd then the length was increased to give some more room for back and forth jockeying for maneuverability those numbers from dreamed up based on the, you know the constraints in sort of the current or at that time the oldie sign

-- old decide of the so

- called accessible restroom we all agreed was not really an accessible restroom but that was basically the best we could do

. T hose numbers came off the top of my head basically.
>> Okay. T he stop of your head

-- the top of your head is usually pretty good. T he 35 by 60 really is not functional at all. >> Correct. >> That is unfortunate. I t just so happens

-- I am looking
at the layout in our cars you can fit the bathroom we have 3 and 2 seating you can fit a bedroom within a clear floor space in the three

- seater aisle and still not have any seats across from their lost in order to get the 60 inch turning circle you are talk ing about 3 to 4 seats that would have to be removed to accomplish that. A nd then you wind up with a relatively narrow area actually, no you should have the 32 inches you are probably have 45, 50 inches to the wall. B ut then the wall is on the side of th e car now. I nstead of down the middle. W hich

-- youlose the line

-- I was wondering if those issues were part of the

reason for the 35 by 60. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank slightly off topic are you in a position like we are (inaudible) seat and want us to remove the middle seat from the

-- >> Oh, in a

-- >> Guys we have less than a minute here we have to shut it off at 3.
>> That little fold down seat was a design that maybe you could swing around if you couldn't do a standing transfer. B ut that was, agai n, just the kind of a design idea it never works because you can't fold it up or if it gets down you can't fold it up because it's too heavy and too hard we have to leave this thing. We are out of time. A nd I think that is going to be the end of the disc ussion. R ight? >> JIM PECHT: Yep. We are done. >> Anybody have final word, if not we will talk to you next time. >> Thank you Dennis.
>> Thank you.
>> Bye you all. >> ROSE MARIE BUNALES: Thank you operator for all of your help today. ( End of meeting.)