Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime 

Translation (CART) system used in the Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting 

#3 and is generally unedited. The CART system was used to provide an 

accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was 

streamed in real-time and available to the public on the internet during the 

meeting. 

United States Access Board

RVAAC Teleconference

Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #3

Thursday July 17, 2014

U.S. Access Board -- we are going to be starting shortly. 

>> Dennis: This is Dennis. My headphones went out 

there for a minute. Can you hear me?

>> Yes.

>> Dennis: Okay. All right. I am Dennis. If people 

would introduce themselves.

>> Actually, Dennis, I am here, this is Rose Marie, Access 

Board, I will read the names off. In the room here I have Jim 

Pecht and myself and our court reporter for today is Beverly. 

On the teleconference I have Andre Gagne, state your name and 

organization, please.

>> Yes, this is Andre Gagne from Bombardier.

>> Billy Altom?
>> This is Billy with the Association of Programs Rural 

Independent Living.

>> Christopher Hart. 

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Here public member.

>> Linda Martin.

>> Linda Martin, FRA.

>> Dennis Cannon is the chair.

>> Yes.

>> David Nelson?

>> Yes, David Nelson, Amtrak

>> Thank you. Blair Slaughter?

>> Blair Slaughter from Amtrak.

>> Melissa Anderson?

>> Melissa Anderson from the Access Board.

>> All right. Thank you everybody. That's everybody on 

the call that I have. Jim, you want to take over?

>> JIM PECHT: Dennis, take it over from here. You are 

boss.

>> Dennis: Okay. I hope everybody got the website and 

agenda up, which I cobbled together. We did a lot of stuff last 

time in terms of agreements. What I tried to do is sort of 

capture the things that I think we pretty much agreed on. And 

we can talk about this in particulars that we are missing. But I 

wanted to make sure that we got sort of the basic ideas and 
make sure if anybody is -- if I missed something that we want 

to break it up. The restrooms we talked about a 60-inch 

turning circle, side transfer to the toilet. Use the Acela as kind 

of a prototype model I don't know if there are other designs that 

could work too. A power door controls 12 inches minimum 

from any inside corner that provision needs to be put back into 

the controls and operating mechanism section not just the 

restrooms. And then we haven't talked specifically about things 

like grab bars toilet heights and so forth. We want to get to 

those. But then on the signal level dining cars we were talking 

about table space for two wheelchairs and transfer seats for two. 

We didn't talk about what to do with the storage issue and we 

will have to think about that.

A 29-inch minimum clearance under the table extending 17 

inches minimum from the edge that you approach. That's 

basically the provision in the ADAAG standards. And 32-inch 

width because we are talking about a 54 by 32-inch footprint 

for the chair. So, you need 32 inches of clear width to get into 

that space. And then in the sleeping compartments, again, side 

transfer to the toilet and the shower chair. 60-inch turning 

circle in the sleeping room with the bed deployed which is 

different from the current. If you deploy the bed, in the 

single-level cars at least Amtrak you can't turn around. You 

want the controls for all of the lights, everything HVAC call 
buttons, et cetera, within reach ranges and you can have 

duplicate controls with lights on the upper bunk for example at 

that light as long as you have it -- as long as you have the 

control down below. We talked about things like whether it 

should be tethered. I personally think it should probably be on 

a heavy cable cord that you can move around so that you can't 

lose it you can't take it with you when you leave and so forth.

Positive door latch operable from the outside by trained 

personnel. You have the model that Uwe put forth last time we 

had two drawings he combined them into a single one which is 

down at the bottom of the agenda. You want to talk about the 

bed height which needs to be at essentially wheelchair seat 

height. You can decide on what that needs to be. Maybe there 

is a range maybe not.

There has to be a table. It has to be usable by the 

wheelchair user with the same kinds of requirements about 

height and what not that we get from the dining car. There is a 

moth attacking me here.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Dennis: And then the lounge, which is a double 

bi-level car normally has a small -- a snack bar on the lower 

level and seating and a restroom and then it also has seating up 

above and typically in fact there is a provision in the DOT 

standard that says when you have a lounge it has to be coupled 
with the bi-level dining car. So, the bi-level dining car we don't 

statutorily we can't make any requirements for seating or 

anything else in that, that was specifically so that we wouldn't 

have to provide Vertical Access at least congress thought about 

it at the time. But the lounge car has accessible spaces on the 

lower level, the lower level of the bi-level dining car is all 

kitchen. And seating on the upper level, and my understanding 

is none of the dining cars have a restroom; is that correct Blair?

>> Blair: Dennis, there is a small restroom on the lower 

level for the crew for the dining car crew so they don't have to 

leave the galley and go elsewhere in the train.

>> Dennis: Right. But it's not a public restroom right?

>> Blair: No it's not.

>> Dennis: And the rule says if you do not provide 

restroom facilities for the general public you do not have to 

provide an accessible restroom. So, the same is -- I know there 

is an accessible restroom in the current design lounge car at 

least the newer design on the lower level. My guess is that 

restrooms are always on the lower level because of the tanks 

and what not. Is that correct?

>> Blair: Where there is accessible restrooms, yes. There 

is an exception. The sleepers have--well, the rooms have or 

the deluxe rooms have their own toilets. And there is one 

public restroom on the upper level of sleepers as well for folks 
in the rooms where they don't have their own toilet. But 

downstairs there is usually four or five restrooms in the 

sleepers. And or the coaches.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair, I

>> (inaudible) there is one shower in the lower level, and 

then there's -- the upper level is you have the deluxe bedroom. 

They all have their own shower and toilet. But then if you are 

using a smaller room- ette there is the one public restroom on 

the upper level or you can go downstairs to use I think two or 

three restrooms downstairs. So, they are both --

>> (inaudible). Okay. Now the one thing that -- on the 

lounge we talked briefly about the idea, this would also apply to 

things like a cafe car about self-service areas, and whether you 

could actually reach them and get to them. And I am thinking 

that maybe we want to just adopt the requirement unless people 

have changes that they want to make that are consistent with 

the AVA, ABA standards for cafeterias and self-service 

requirements in the facilities regs. 

Those are the issues can I -- I can recall having discussed. 

Did I miss anything? I guess not.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Dennis: Okay. Let's -- so we are almost done folks.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Dennis: So let's Garden Grove back to the issue of 
restrooms and grab bars -- well let's start first with toilet seat 

height. Do we want to talk about -- do we have any reason 

why the toilet seat height should be different than it is in the 

buildings and facilities? Which is 17 to 19.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair, this is Chris. Is there any 

difference on the (inaudible) today?

>> Blair: You mean as far as the height?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yeah.

>> Blair: Chris, I would have to check and see what the 

measurements are. But I think that they are at the lower end of 

the range. And there is no reason why they can't be there is no 

technical reason why they can't be in the right range.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, I wanted to say I don't know 

offhand.

>> Blair: I have some drawings I am looking at now let's 

see if I can pull a number off of them while we are talking.

>> Dennis: My guess is there is no real reason why they 

can't meet that requirement. We hear that in comment if that 

was the case. Let's stop that for a minute. The lab -- the sink 

control the facets. Obviously what you want they have limited 

water supply you obviously don't want the faucet to be able to 

be left on and run because you delete the water pretty quickly. 

The controls on the current labs -- on the current lavs have a 

push down lever. The difficulty with those kind it works fine. 
But the difficulty is that you can only wash one hand at a time.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Dennis: Wet one hand at a time. I have this vague 

recollection I am not sure the Acela lav controls are infrared 

does anybody know?

>> Blair: Dennis, no, they are not. They use -- they are 

the timed push down faucets. And the problem that you get 

into with those timed ones. You push them down if they are 

working right they run for so many seconds. Is the ones that 

work well are horrendously expensive. Then there is all of the 

rest of them that kind of work. And then eventually you know, 

they will -- maybe they don't run as long as they should or they 

stick open and run or they just won't, you push them down they 

come right back up. So, at Amtrak at least we are seriously 

trying to get to the touchless faucets. And there is some push 

back on the railroad for that. We are looking at it it's sort of, if 

they work correctly, it takes the problems away. You know the 

machine is timing the thing and it shuts off and you don't have 

to worry about enough measure to -- enough pressure to 

activate it or those kinds of things.

>> Dennis: Yeah, I have seen some push controls that are 

really difficult to push. I mean you have to like push down from 

the top. The ones on the Amtrak now are pretty good because 

they have a kind of a lever that's fairly easy to push down again 
you have to push them down with one hand and wet one hand 

and then you have to push it with the other hand and wet the 

other hand and so forth. So, I think a recommendation for the 

touchless infrared controls I think would be a good idea. 

Anybody have any objection to that?

>> This is David here. I have no objections to that. 

However, I am trying to think of where I was at. I was at a hotel 

recently for a conference. And there was a new touchless 

faucet where on the side of the faucet there was a little lever or 

control you could switch it how hot and cold you wanted it. I

have never actually seen anything like that on a touchless 

faucet. That is something else you can consider.

>> Dennis: Yeah, I have seen those on sink faucets 

because you do have to change the -- in some cases when you 

want a drink of water you don't want hot water if you are 

watching your hands you don't want cold water there needs to 

be some temperature adjustment. Okay temperature 

adjustment would be lever by the actual actuation would be with 

infrared is that okay? That's -- I will revise this -- this agenda 

to cover that. And have we decided anything about toilet seat 

height?

>> This is Andre Gagne I looked at the CFR it says between 

17 and 19 inches. So, when we build cars they are within that 

range so if that's not an issue then it's fine with me.
>> Okay. We should keep it. Now one of the things Ed 

Steinfeld said while we talk about grab bars we don't have a lot 

of specificity about where they are placed I am not exactly sure 

how to address this. But my idea was that grab bar that's 

typically accessible toilet you have grab bar one side and grab 

bar on the back of the toilet. The back of the toilet grab bar 

was kind of thrown in many, many years ago according to Ed's 

discussion about where it came from as sort of an idea of 

somebody said oh, yeah that will work nobody has ever really 

tested it. It's been the standard for many years. And I am not 

convinced that people actually use it. On the other hand, in a 

moving train, any grab bar -- lots of grab bars I think are a 

good idea. In fact I think it would be a good idea to have 

vertical grab bars but I am not clear how to specify them and lay 

them out has anybody got any ideas about in a? -- about that?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Dennis, Jim can correct me if I am 

wrong, but why would on at least to A117 IBC vertical grab bar.

>> Does A117 have vertical grab bar?

>> JIM PECHT: Yes, it's required on the side wall next to the 

toilet. And I believe towards the front of the shower and the 

tub.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: It's toward the front because it 

allows you to pull yourself up if you are able to stand.

>> Dennis: Okay. I --
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Or to catch yourself as the train 

rocks back and forth.

>> JIM PECHT: Use it to steady yourself.

>> Blair: Dennis we started adding the vertical handholds 

even in restrooms that aren't considered accessible for the same 

reasons just so folks -- they have something to steady 

themselves with or to help them to stand back up again. So, I 

think it would be -- I would only say that whatever we do we 

need to make sure it goes high enough so it's universally 

accessible.

>> This is Linda Martin at FRA. We recently recommended 

that for a newer rail car -- sorry somebody is at my door. A

newer rail car entity in their nonaccessible restrooms where lots 

of elderly people will potentially be riding the cars. So, I have 

somebody at my door I am going to mute my phone, thank you.

>> This is David here. Now, I didn't hear the answer 

regarding -- I guess it was something about the grab bar 

behind the toilet. If that's not needed right? Or you guys 

going to keep that?

>> Dennis: Well, this is Dennis. My understanding is it's 

not really that useful but it's been there forever. And I don't 

know whether it's worth getting rid of it and I don't know what 

evidence that we have -- I mean, my impression is that people 

don't really use it. But I am not sure that it's worth getting rid 
of and I am not sure we could justify getting rid of it since it's 

been in the standard since the ice age.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: This is Chris. I am going to 

suggest the discussion we have when Marsha is available but in 

general, we were really moving away from things that are 

understood or been there 40 years without having research to 

back it up. If someone wants to find research over seen bit 

board -- by the board then you can maybe have a look at it. 

But I don't -- my gut says that you guys probably do not want to 

make radical changes to rear or side grab bar layout.

>> Dennis: Okay. I am assuming that's in the ANSI 

standard is that correct?

>> JIM PECHT: Correct.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, the rear grab bars is A117 

and IBC.

>> Dennis: Does the ANSI standard have a provision for 

folding grab bars.

>> JIM PECHT: Not to my knowledge, Dennis.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: You know, Dennis, there might be 

an ASTM section on that but I can't think of anything.

>> Dennis: I know folding grab bars has been an 

interesting idea floating around the difficulty with them in the 

past and why they haven't been specified necessarily is that they 

have structural problems possibly and they often have a 
main -- a maintenance problem because you have to make sure 

they are really anchored into the ground. Somebody to deploy 

them and put them back is sometimes a problem and when they 

are down or up or over or whatever they are in, in the regular 

position, the fact that they are latched so that they don't move, 

the vertical ones fall down from the wall aren't as difficult 

because you are typically pushing down on them although you 

are also pushing to the side. And that's where the structural 

issues are. But grab bars like that are quite common in other 

places. And in the VIA rail line that Uwe put forth there is a 

vertical, a wall hung grab bar that drops down between the toilet 

and the shower chair which means to me would probably be a 

good idea. I am not sure how to specify that to except to say 

something like movable grab bars shall be permitted if -- and 

shall meet all of the structural standards for grab bars. 250 

pounds and whatever the things is stability and so forth. 

Anybody have problem with saying that we are going to allow 

vertical grab bars but not try to specify what they are?

>> JIM PECHT: Dennis, this is Jim I would add one thing you 

might want to also specify when it's in the raised or up position, 

folded position that it doesn't stick out from the wall far enough 

to obstruct the clear floor space because there is a design out 

there that is a big U-shaped bar that once it's folded up it sits 

out about 6, 8 inches from the wall.
>> Dennis: That I encountered in Amsterdam.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: We have all seen those overseas.

>> JIM PECHT: You want to make sure when it's in the 

folded position it doesn't construct clear floor space for transfer.

>> This is Andre Gagne I think it's during the second 

committee meeting I provided a document and made a 

presentation on toilets and there were sketches of foldable grab 

bars used in Europe complete with dimensions and relative to 

the toilet seats they could be useful also. Whether the grab 

bars are fixed or foldable. I think they should be referenced 

from the toilet seat with dimensions so they become usable. If 

you simply side that they have to behind the toilet seat they 

could be very far behind and become unusable. So, this is 

something that should be taken into account as well, I think.

>> Dennis: Right. I think the ANSI standard probably 

covers that the issue about folding grab bars is -- we are going 

to make sure that the height matches the grab bar height that 

we typically specify and that their position close to the toilet is 

such matches the same thing, you -- you don't want it on the 

far side of the wall you want it right next to the toilet. I think 

we can pick those up from the ANSI standard.

>> Blair: Dennis, do you want to put anything in there for 

the force requirements? You know maximums to deploy?

>> Dennis: Yeah, that's sort of a given I am assuming that 
if you deploy both putting it down and putting it up you need to 

make the five-pound force requirements that applies to almost 

everything else.

>> Hey this is Linda Martin again, FRA. I apologize I had 

somebody at my door quite a while I may have missed it. One 

of the issues we ran into maybe Blair did you touch about this at 

all about the pull down grab bar and the one instance in the 

newer accessible bedrooms, the proposal at one point was 

where the bar would pull down it would be partially blocking the 

door to get out of the room. And we talked about how that 

wasn't really a good idea. So I just wanted to make sure that 

that's a consideration. Or included. That it can't block -- in 

its deployed position it can't block any egress ingress.

>> Blair: Linda, as far as that, in the new cars when we get 

the sink installed with the railings on that, we will make a final 

determination on how long that railing is going to be. It will 

obviously shorter than it is now.

>> Linda: Right.

>> Blair: We want to make sure what we take it back to 

work for its intended function. And you know, relieves the door 

issue at the same time. We are hoping that it may end up just 

being okay, you know, fixed in the down position so it won't be 

in the way. But, again, we have to functionally test the you 

know the new railing situation that we are doing.
>> Linda: Did you discuss the issue about railings around 

the sink? I mean I don't know that we would want to potentially 

require those or not but you know, that's something that we 

have made a suggestion in a couple of recent discussions. Not 

currently required but is there any thought about whether it 

could be or should be?

>> I think from my standpoint the rail car -- the problem is 

always if you look at architecture, there is all discrete things 

there is a grab bar, handrail, there is a sink, toilet there is a 

door. And because of the spatial restrictions inside of cars, it's 

often worth a lot spatially and functionally to start combining 

activities. So, if, I would think, a good designer would try to do 

that anyway. But if we -- if we think from a functional 

standpoint we should add that I think it could be good. You 

know, we ended up putting a lot of railing on the Acela, and at 

the end of the day the intention was that we put railing all the 

way around it and have everyone tell us what railing they don't 

want. And when everyone saw it they said we want it all.

 (LAUGHTER).

>> Blair: And that's why that railing goes all over the 

place. I would say, yeah, if we think from a functional 

standpoint on a train, because it's moving, that we should have 

those kind of things included where maybe they are not 

specified in architecture then I would say let's do it. The only 
thing that I would say is when you add a railing say to the front 

of the sink, now you are affecting the dimensions of the 

reachability of the sink, so that is the tricky part. Of course 

train sinks aren't as big as architectural sinks that may be the 

give and take.

>> This is Dennis. The problem with -- I mean, I think we 

can talk in general terms about grab bars and the force 

requirements and those kind of things. The actual placement 

of them is tricky, because it will partly depend on the design of 

the bathroom. In other words, where you put the sink. If the 

sink is over in a different corner as opposed to the Acela where 

it's right next to the toilet, then you have a different issue about 

where you put the grab bars. I am not sure that we can be 

terribly specific in order to allow for the design freedom. I

personally like that grab bar across it both serves the toilet on 

the side and stability for the sink in the Acela. It's very nice to 

be able to grab on to that and hang on to it. And I do standing

transfers I also stand up at sink. That grab bar across the front 

is wonderful, because when the train is rocking back and forth 

it's really nice to have something to hang on to

>> Linda: It's also usable for people like myself who need 

assistance pulling forward to reach controls. So it's -- you 

know, it's -- it would have a multi-functional purpose, I would 

think.
>> Dennis: Yeah, I like it. And I think to be too specific 

about where you put them might be a hindrance because pretty 

soon you may get grab bars that actually interfere with. I was 

in a hotel once many years ago which had a quote accessible 

room unquote. And they had -- it was like a jungle gym in the 

bathroom they had grab bars everywhere. There was a grab bar 

that came out of the wall and went down into the floor it's 

position by the toilet and the counter it was just in front of it 

actually made it impossible to get a wheelchair up to the toilet. 

So, it actually created a problem by putting too many grab bars. 

So, I think it's going to be real hard to be more explicit. I think 

saying something like grab bar in front of lav is a good idea. 

We can say that without having -- without being too specific 

about how it functions in the room. And I am not sure how 

directly to be -- to get what we want without being over 

prescriptive.

>> Blair: Dennis, this is Blair. Would you like to say 

adjacent to just so it leaves flexibility of where it's located at the 

sink? In some cases it can be as functional if it is to the side of 

the sink as directly in front of it. But they may wrap it up 

tightly enough.

>> Dennis: Okay we will try that.

>> ROSE MARIE BUNALES: I wanted to let you know Frank 

Maldari just joined the call.
>> Dennis: Okay. Welcome.

>> Frank: Okay.

>> Dennis: We are done with the restroom I think?

>> This is Andre I would like to add one comment. I think 

it was discussed during the previous subcommittee meeting. I

see a 60-inch turning circle.

>> Dennis: Right.

>> Andre: And I see Acela using as a model restroom I am 

assuming. I did a small sketch if you want a turning circle 

inside the Acela restroom it won't be the same restroom it will 

have to be repackaged. I wanted to say that I saw the sketch 

from Uwe I think it's in the attachments here the toilet from Uwe 

is designed with a turning circle as a basic requirement so I 

think it's a good start it's a better start than using the Acela 

Express toilet.

>> Dennis: That's surprising because I use the Acela 

restroom many times and I can turn around in it and I have a 

fairly big chair. I don't know what the -- I assume the Acela 

had a 16-inch turning circle.

>> It does not. I can send to you a quick sketch showing 

you the outside of the toilet module and the 35 by 60 clear floor 

area. And I added to it the 60-inch turning circle international 

compatible right now

**NOTE: 16.
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Dennis, this is Chris. I think 

it's -- it's only found on the California cars or Dallas fort worth 

bi-level commuter rail.

>> Dennis: Okay. What I am going to do then is take out 

this "use Acela as a model" so we don't limit it to that particular 

thing is that okay with everybody? I like a lot of other things 

about the Acela as a design. I think it's a great restroom but 

okay.

>> Blair: Dennis this is Blair do you want to make the 

Acela even though it doesn't have the 60-inch radius do you 

want to make that the new minimum benchmark? I mean if it's 

functional but doesn't have the 60? I guess the risk is that 

with -- it will never get to 60 if we don't do that.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair I suggest that on the -- you 

already got them so maybe the starting point is to look at the 

PRIIA and (inaudible) the California capitol car.

>> Well I looked at some of the materials the PRIIA sent 

out. What I see in the diagram of the restroom in the PRIIA car 

is the old nonaccessible, accessible restroom in the current 

design. Which is long and narrow. And basically requires a 

standing transfer and the toilet is in the corner. So I didn't see 

the PRIIA car as adopting anything in my view is an accessible 

restroom. I think the problem is they went back to their 

standard the current guidelines said okay let's make sure we 
comply the problem is the current guidelines aren't very 

accessible. One of the issues that I wanted to specifically 

address is that we get a way from that design because it doesn't 

really work.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Dennis, I am not sure what you are 

looking at because there was substantial discussion and Uwe 

and Gary and Richard I think were all (inaudible) a couple days 

being in DC we were going to rest -- going through restroom 

designs, and so I am not quite sure how you get what you got. 

But we are in a different place.

>> Okay I will look at it again. I will take out the Acela 

model issue so we don't confuse people with what we are 

looking at. Okay.

Single level dining cars any problems or additions of things 

that we want to put in there.

>> JIM PECHT: Before you move on I have a couple of 

questions for Blair if I could.

>> Sure.

>> JIM PECHT: Blair, I seem to remember up in after 

RailPlan to look at the mockups up there is that what we are 

talking about with regards to the Acela model or what Dennis is 

talking about on the current vehicle?

>> Blair: It's on the current vehicle Jim.

>> JIM PECHT: We haven't seen what you guys were sort of 
hatching up in RailPlan as yet I am assuming?

>> Blair: In real plan, I think there was -- I believe it was 

the Boston show as well, interior show, is the restroom we have 

done for our bi-level older bi-level coaches, that we will address 

as they go through for major upgrades.

>> JIM PECHT: Right.

>> Blair: I am trying to find the drawing for that now to 

see what the floor space is. But I think it has a 60-inch circle.

>> JIM PECHT: They put in a curved door specifically to 

achieve that as I remember.

>> I looked at the PRIIA document, and it has a restroom 

with a curved wall curved door but I don't know that it is you 

know it's not dimensions so it doesn't really -- the picture -- so 

it may be what had Dennis concerned.

>> JIM PECHT: The other thing is that I also remember up in 

RailPlan I know you guys are going to the touchless faucets but I 

seen -- and maybe this is a dream my fevered brain had you 

were looking at touchless soap dispensers as well is that true or 

am I dreaming?

>> Blair: Yes, that is true. And we have like the Acela 

already has a hand dryer as well as paper towels. And we are 

looking at most of those applications where they make sense. 

We just did a prototype application of a touchless soap 

dispenser on a car and it was installed and the first time it got to 
a maintenance point somebody took it off because who knows.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Blair: But maybe it was putting soap every where I 

don't know. But we are looking at those things because it's a 

growing concern not only for -- from an accessibility standpoint 

but from a cleanliness standpoint. You wash your hands and 

your hands are nice and clean and then you turn the facet off it's 

contaminated. We are looking at those things for a lot of 

reasons.

>> Okay. I just bring it up because Dennis you may want 

to think about language as far as allows those things and not 

prohibiting them.

>> Okay.

>> Blair: I hope they get more reliable they are wonderful 

when they work but a nuisance when they don't.

>> They are just a lump of steel if they don't

>> That's right it's a wish point.

>> Dennis: Okay. Single level dining cars anybody got 

questions, different things to add from what is in there? We 

haven't really talked about the storage issue. And the other 

section we talked about the clear floor space for wheelchair. 

There was some discussion, this was in accessible route 

circulation path about storage and what the dimensions of that 

storage unit should be. But that hasn't coalesced and I am not 
sure that there is anything about storage necessarily in the 

dining car.

>> This is David here. Real quick, I do have a question. 

The agenda says a table for two wheelchairs. Now, is that 

accurate? Is that what we are looking to do?

>> Dennis: That's what I recall as having something that 

everybody sort of generally came into agreement on. And the 

reason that I put this down in the in the agenda I want to make 

sure that we actually say we agree this is the report that we want 

to give to the committee before we go forward.

>> Blair: Dennis this is Blair. To that point, I am 

fumbling around on my computer trying to find floor plans adds 

we talk about these things so I can make statements in the 

absence of that, what we have done and I will just quickly run 

through when we started working on the new diners, it was very 

compact. And what we -- we ultimately came to is you can't be 

very compact and have real accessibility. So, we ended up with 

the condition that -- from a capacity standpoint is going to be 

heart breaking for the food service folks but they will have to 

live with it. But you can now come through the door and 

maneuver into a table with relative ease. And I think, I have got 

to verify the dimensions that once someone is at the table, there 

is still room for someone to come in and transfer to a seat, 

another table, and park a full size -- I mean park the wheelchair 
in a full size space. I don't know -- I don't think without taking 

out more seating that we can have two accessible wheelchair 

accessible tables. And deal with the maneuverability issues. 

We tried doing cantilever tables and by the time that you get the 

structure strong enough to really work as a cantilever you are 

fighting with the dimension, the top and under dimension of 

having under dimension high enough, and keeping the top from 

being too high. As you can imagine. Versus just having the 

table with the legs so it's very thin profile. So, I will, as we are 

talking I will try to dig it up and see, do some quick 

measurements, but that would be my only concern. I haven't 

looked at it from the standpoint of, you know, can we do that, 

and have folding seats for the times that no one is there in a 

wheelchair or wishes to transfer but that would be my only 

concern is that we just have a greater impact on very limited 

seating space in the diner to begin with.

>> Dennis: So you are thinking we can only do one is that 

it?

>> Blair: I will -- let me look more closely at it. The way 

that I have it right now I know that I can get -- someone can roll 

right up to one of the tables and then they have an option of 

probably two tables that can be transferred to and still keep an 

unfolded wheelchair in the car. That was a big concern that you 

know you can't -- you can't assume that you are going to put 
the wheelchair back in the vestibule away from the person. So, 

now we have got that condition. Let me look at it and see if 

there is a -- you know what the real potential impact is of doing 

two chairs fully parked at the tables.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim there is currently in the standard 

a requirement for spaces in both regular coach seat and for 

dining car booths or table seats but the way it's written it 

presumes that the wheelchair can be folded

>> Yeah that's the way the statute reads. Storage space 

for foldable wheelchairs it doesn't assume that a manual 

wheelchair that doesn't fold can necessarily be stored in that 

space. I am not sure what you do with it. Presumably there 

maybe some space for luggage and what not that a chair might 

fit in but I am not sure about that

>> JIM PECHT: Well the standard doesn't specify size in any 

event even if the chair does fold it may not fit in the space 

provided.

>> Dennis: That's right. There was some talk in one of 

the other subcommittees about specifying something like a 

24-inch width for example. That was the closest anybody got 

to what that space would actually look like in terms of how deep 

it is and how high it is and so forth. So, that's -- that's an issue 

that has not yet been finalized. So, okay so the -- so I am 

going to say that we have agreed that there is at least one is that 
right? Of each? Space for at least one wheelchair and at least 

one transfer seat.

>> Linda from FRA like you said Dennis, it's in the statute 

that it be that it be at least that at least for the dining cars we 

certainly can't go below that.

>> Dennis: Right.

>> Blair: This is Blair, I think though the old the old 

language around the fold and store, I don't know if staying with 

folded is -- from a provider standpoint it's a nice number to 

stick with from practicality standpoint does it really serve people 

you know to have that. You know, if -- how many wheelchairs 

today or mobility aids actually you know can go to any level of 

being compact? Obviously some do, but I don't know if we are 

thinking about the old standard folding you know Everest and 

Jenning-style wheelchair that that is even reasonable to leave in 

there. That gets back to what size do we want to store.

>> Yes, the statute says space to store a wheelchair. So, 

the assumption was that it would be the old standard folding 

EMJ or stainless chair. But you are right, today there are a lot of 

chairs that don't fold up. I guess the assumption would be if it 

doesn't fold there is no require to director director requirement 

to store it anywhere I am not sure what you do with that issue. 

Obviously if you have got only one person in a chair who wants 

to transfer you can put the chair in the space that would be for 
the seated wheelchair. I used to do that a lot in long trips as I 

would transfer out of my chair into the seat because it was more 

comfortable. If you have more than one person you can't do 

that.

>> This is David here. So, I have got a question for Linda 

Martin. Is it possible to go through the rulemaking to collect 

comments on whether or not we need to have a storage space 

for folding wheelchairs?

>> Linda: Well, first of all, I mean what is on the statute is 

what is in the statute. I mean, you can't go below what's in the 

statute without changing the statute. But if you are talking 

about the procedure that the Access Board follows or procedure 

that FRA would follow after the Access Board develops 

guidelines, because those are two separate things and if it's the 

first probably the Access Board should answer that question. 

So I am happy to probably answer it for them but shouldn't.

>> No, no, you made it clear. I wasn't -- I think I got it 

mixed up with the Access Board and FRA. So, if Access Board 

recommends that we don't need a storage space, then that could 

not even be done correct? The FRA can't undo the statute.

>> Linda: Right the Access Board or FRA can't undo the 

statue you have to provide one space for someone who wishes 

to stay in the wheelchair and at least one space for someone 

who wishes to transfer and at least one space for that person to 
store and fold his wheelchair. And you know, so that's really 

two spaces but then also a space for a person to transfer to. 

So, it's sort of 3 elements.

>> No, I got you, okay.

>> Dennis: The current reg says the transfer seat can be a 

standard seat there is nothing special about the seat.

>> Linda: Right but we recently recommended if there are 

armrests on chairs that at least one of those armrests be 

raiseable or removable so that the transfer space is a true 

transfer space. But seats don't often have an outer armrest in 

any case if they do they should be raiseable.

>> Dennis: Okay.

>> Linda: So that is maybe something useful to have in 

guidance. Guidelines.

>> Dennis: Okay. We will redo that part to say at least 

one. Sleeping compartments. Have we got anything that's in 

there that we want to change or --

>> Linda: I have to pop off for a 2 o'clock I can't get out of 

so sorry.

>> Dennis: Okay. Thank you for coming.

>> Linda: All right, okay.

>> Dennis: Let's go back to one of the questions what is 

the proper height of the bed is 18 inches reasonable for kind of 

an average wheelchair seat height?
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Dennis I might suggest that we 

ask Blair and his crew to put what a (inaudible) without taking an 

average number until we know what is in use today.

>> Blair: This is Blair, Chris. Let me get that number I 

want to say it's 17. But let me verify that.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Blair, is it 17 without cushion or 

with the cushion.

>> Blair: That would be to the top of the cushion.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: That seems low to me but maybe 

it is.

>> Blair: Well, yeah, if you think about 17 even being at 

the low end for a toilet and that's a hard surface, so, if you have 

a cushion that immediately is going to give, you know, an inch 

or more when you start to try to move through it. The static 

height probably needs to be higher so it functions for transfer.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Right.

>> This is David here. Now, Chris, I think that the 17 

inches is because a lot of our sleeper cars, it's a 

convertible -- let me rephrase. Okay, so, our seating is 17 

inches from the floor up, and it's -- it becomes or turns into a 

bed.

>> CAROL BRADLEY: Right.

>> David: That's why it's 17 inches.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes, yes. Of course typically most 
office chairs have 18 inches --

>> David: Hmm.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: So, if Blair could get back to us 

after checking his various modules that would be very helpful.

>> Blair: That would be helpful. But the question here is 

what do we want to recommend as being a good height. If 17 

inches what they do but 18 inches is better for accessibility 

don't we want to recommend the better accessibility standard? 

And then the comment can be well we can't do that. We can 

only do this. That's the question.

>> Blair: Dennis, this is Blair. I would say let's put the 

numbers to your point let's put the numbers in there that it 

needs to be. I think it will still be within the range of seating 

height. I think now it's probably toward the low end for anyone 

so, I would say let's put the number in there and I would 

seriously consider describing the static height because of that 

whole cushioning aspect when you are making a transfer. If the 

static height needs to be higher leave it higher let's go back and 

look at it because it is a convertible typically convertible seat 

that converts to a bed when it folds up there is usually behind 

the sofa there is controls and things and so and lights. So, 

when -- if the whole thing is taller. It compresses that 

available space. It needs to be handled a little bit differently. 

We have some conditions where the controls are to the left and 
right of the sofa versus being along the top back edge. I would 

say pick the number that everyone is comfortable with and we 

figure out you know what if any impact there is to the rest of the 

activity.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim another way to specify it could 

possibly you do the maximum height uncompressed the 

minimum height compressed.

>> This it is Frank I was wondering where is the 18 inches 

come from that you have there.

>> Dennis: That's a standard for average wheelchair 

height. Wheelchair seating is higher or lower my seat is about 

20 inches but I am tall, but 18 inches is sort of a standard 

height for wheelchair seat.

>> Frank: I was looking at human scale they have the 

range 18 to 20.

>> JIM PECHT: It's also dead center for of the transfer range 

for the building stuff.

>> Frank: Right would you want the bed to be lower or 

higher or right at that height?

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Dennis: Ideally it would be adjustable. When we 

did -- when we were writing the original ADAAG I did the 

analysis of the comments that came in on toilet seats, for 

example, which were 17 to 19 and there weren't a lot of 
comments but half said it should be higher and half said it 

should be lower. So we figured we probably get it in the 

middle. The problem is that it's not. It's going down to a 

lower height in one direction it's not so bad but that means that 

you are -- you get the other way. So, unless you have an 

adjustable thing you move up when you want to transfer and 

move down from the other you have to pick a number 

somewhere in the middle.

>> 18 is about right.

>> Yeah.

>> And just so you know that the justice department has 

an open AMPRM looking at hotel bed heights don't ask whether 

they will go forward on that. But that's --

>> A lot of hotels decided they want the pillow top 

mattresses which adds 2 inches or more to the height. And 

there have been hotels I have been in I couldn't get on the bed

>> They sink down at least that much. So I am wondering 

if it's harder to get up if they lower the bed anyway.

>> Dennis: Let me put in the 18 and we will see what kind 

of comments people have and it would be nice to know whether 

it's a -- that's a problem as opposed to what Amtrak currently 

does, we are interested in whether this is going to be a difficult, 

and -- manufacturer's for the cars, it's not Amtrak, it's 

Bombardier and others about whether that is difficult in terms of 
design.

>> This is David here. So, rather than locking down a 

specific number for the bed, could we make a reference to 

ADAAG, and the ADAAG already has the information regarding 

hotel beds in there --

>> JIM PECHT: No it does not.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: No.

>> Dennis: No.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: That's why there is an open ruling 

from the DOJ.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. The only thing ADAAG has for 

beds is the space next to it doesn't have anything about height 

in most hotels or many hotels the bed itself a is a movable piece 

of furniture which the standard doesn't cover.

>> Blair: This is Blair from Amtrak. Another thing to 

keep in mind too, when the sofa folds down and becomes a bed 

there is actually maybe two-inch mattress pad put on top of it to 

take out the -- to compensate for the joints between the 

cushion that make up the bed so that adds a little bit to it as 

well. So, its height and seat versus a bed is a little different to 

begin with. I would still say, if we want to give it a range then 

knowing it's comfortable we give it a range that takes that into 

account then that's probably maybe a good way to go forward. 

And I would -- pick the numbers that it needs to be I don't think 
there is going to be strong drivers, I can't think of any that kind 

be overcome. We are talking about new cars or major retrofits. 

I don't -- I can't think of anything that can't be overcome. In 

that scenario. The worst case the bed might get a little bit 

narrower because where the back goes when it's in the up 

position. We are not talking a huge amount.

>> Okay. What about -- are we done with sleepers? I

personally think there should be an over riding -- whether the 

control should be on a handheld device that's cable connected. 

All of the lights can be turned off all of the H vac that is separate 

I am not going to worry about specifying that.

>> Blair: When we talk about the controls being accessible 

I don't want -- I want to make sure that we don't eliminate a 

remote control device from the options. I know there was some 

discussion before and personally I think the greatest flexibility 

for everyone who might be traveling is going to be some sort of 

a remote control just because of the nature of the 

multifunctions that occur inside of the car. I am worried if we 

don't have the flexibility we are going to end up with controls all 

over the place and not to beat a technical horse having multiple 

switches isn't as easy as you might think when you are trying to 

keep things reliable at the same time. So, I just want to say be 

sure we don't eliminate remote controls from the -- from the 

discussion.
>> Yeah, I wouldn't either. The only reason people were 

thinking about it was somebody walks off with the control if it's 

truly portable. And that's an issue I guess that you have to 

continually replace them kids will think they are great fun to 

play with. If it's hard wired with a handy cable you are right I 

want to leave the option expressly state that you already said 

redundant controls are okay meaning that you don't have to 

have the controls for the lights of the upper bunk can be up 

there you also have the controls somewhere else that's 

accessible. But I want to make sure that you are right that we 

allow the option of remote of some sort. Either hard wired or 

whatever.

>> And just to -- I don't want to beat a dead horse, for 

example, when we built the first view liners we put in membrane 

switches and there is actually a control brain box for the room 

lights that's a $1200 device, they made them for the cars and 

quit making them it's the classic railroad disaster. But we 

found they were problematic over time some people didn't like 

them you got minimal tactile feedback from the switches. And 

they were electrically complex. This time around we have gone 

back to try to improve switches. And in architecture that tends 

to work very well. But when you go to the third switch for a 

light, the first two are easy the third switch and the fourth 

switch become very, very complex unless you go back to a 
controller system. And the size of the switches is insane. 

They are just -- they are big and, you are dealing in trains with 

walls that are not architecturally thick. So, all of the standard 

stuff we think about with electrical devices goes out the window. 

So, again, it's one of those very frustrating things where we want 

to do something, but we just keep running up against the 

spatial issues. So, again, that would make remote control 

devices all the more viable in the long run, I think.

>> This is David here. I think maybe if you want to kind of 

add remote or other electronic devices such as like a tablet or a 

smartphone, a mobile device, that could be used linked via WI/FI 

or bluetooth for future technology purposes. Because a lot of 

us will be having our own personal devices and who knows 

maybe we could be able to download something just to control 

the room. It's just kind of something that I want to throw out 

there as an open regulation.

>> Dennis: Got it, okay. Anything about the lounge that 

needs to be -- the lounge car is probably where the circulation 

folks are going to want to put a vertical access but that's not 

this committee's issue.

>> Dennis just a reminder you do have signal level lounge 

is -- risers -- on the Acela the (inaudible) is often the best place 

to be for -- single-level lounge. That's the best place to be 

during the ride.
>> Dennis: Okay.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: And I believe in the past inquired 

about accessible seating and other issues in the lounge cars.

>> I wrote down in the lounge space for two are we going 

to say at least one? Giving up on the two?

>> Blair: Dennis, this is Blair. On bi-level cars and I 

apologize I don't have the reg in front of me. Were they written 

for two people in wheelchairs? Because I know the super liner 

2's were built with a space intended so that you could -- you 

could accommodate two people to stay in wheelchairs. It gives 

you the greatest flexibility. And you can also there was a place 

to fold and store wheelchairs. And so it's usually a little less of 

an issue in lounges because it's more open leisurely seating 

anyway.

>> Right. I am trying to remember now what we say about 

lounge cars. The lounge car has requirement that you have to 

be -- this is a bi-level lounge car you have to be able to enter 

from the platform there has to be boar on the lower level of the 

lower level has a restroom I don't recall whether it's included in 

the passenger coaches. The coaches are the ones that say, at 

least one but no more than two. But I am not sure that that is 

covered by lounge cars. I would have to look it up. I don't 

have it in front of me. My recollection is it's not. The lounge 

cars and dining cars are not considered part of the passenger 
load.

>> Blair: Right. The bi-levels, and I was around early 

when some of this stuff was being done or as it was being 

sorted out. But the bi-level lounges or bi-level definitions 

weren't as thorough by far as the single levels. It's always been 

troublesome from a design standpoint. Because, again, it's nice 

to -- it's nice to know what that you are doing is correct. But if 

it does -- if you don't have anything to go by, you always are 

wondering did we do the right thing.

>> I know I had discussions years ago with Caesar who was 

redesigning the lounge car to make it accessible. The bi-level 

lounge car the lower part to make it accessible. And his 

comment to me was that after he redesigned it to make it 

accessible it was a better car. In his opinion. Better design.

>> Blair: Well it worked out well because the old cars. 

Original superliner lounges were horribly congested an the 

through put was terrible because you just -- everyone ended up 

bunched up in one spot trying to get food and things there was 

no place to turn yourself around walking much less with a 

wheelchair to go back to your seat or up stairs. What we did 

the lower level was intended to be accessible from end to end 

because the accessible restroom was at the opposite end from 

the food service point. And you could go into the food service 

area and it had the tray service railing like you would find in a 
cafeteria and a horse shoe shape. And there wasn't a lot of 

hard definition for some of the dimensions. So we sort of 

thought we did the best we could at the time and made it as 

self-service as independent was we could.

>> Dennis: Okay. I have written down that we should use 

the self-service requirements for ABA, ADA guidelines for 

cafeterias anybody have problems with that I don't have them in 

front of me I don't know if anybody looked at them. Does 

anybody know whether there are difficulties with those -- they 

talk about self-service and what not. Does anybody have any 

reasons why we shouldn't essentially import those into this 

position?

>> Blair: Dennis, this is Blair. The only -- I was in one of 

our superliner 2 cars not long ago I was looking at it had not 

been on one of them in a while and I was really not sure if we 

were doing it today looking at the food service requirements 

would it work would it comply. I know that we use that as a 

guideline. There was this fellow Dennis Cannon who told us if 

it wasn't well defined in the rail regs do your best to match the 

architectural regs that is what we went after. But I don't know 

without measuring it how that would work. The reason that I 

say that is, it gets back to the spatial issues, there is refrigerated 

space underneath the service counter and tray rail that is the 

restocking, it's the cold storage for everything that is above the 
rail. And I don't know if you went in there and applied the 

architectural dimensions strictly if you would have the full 

maneuvering room because it's two inside corners. I would just 

throw that out. We could certainly take the architectural regs 

and apply it and see what it does. And I would be glad to give 

you for the committee work the superliner 2 floor plans as they 

are and we can pick them apart.

>> That would be good.

>> This is David here. I'm sorry, I kind of wanted to go 

back real quick I looked at the agenda did we overlook one part 

of the eye agenda regarding the sleeper car? You said you were 

talking about using the VIA rail model as the sample of the 

design, did you --

>> Right.

>> David: Did you mention that?

>> Dennis: I mentioned it and then -- the drawing is 

down below in which Uwe put the two pieces together that we 

had last time. Yes, I guess we passed over that I sort of 

thought that was a good model but anybody have any question 

about whether or not that's a good or bad model?

>> David: Well, actually, I looked at -- sorry I might have 

missed this from the last meeting. I looked at the diagram, and 

the VIA rail rooms seem to be much bigger than Amtrak.

>> Dennis: Yes, they are.
>> David: So, I got the updated information regarding the 

new single-level bedrooms. They are a little bit bigger than 

Amtrak but they are still below the VIA rail. And I think I know 

why the VIA rail is on a larger scale. It's because they use an L 

shape seating or sofa if you want to call it. So, those two 

become two beds. Now, ours we don't do that. We have the 

sofa that becomes a bed for one person and then we have an 

upper berth for a second bed. So, I think that makes all of the 

difference.

>> Dennis: Well, Uwe has it that L shaped was not being 

eliminated it was not actually in --

>> Sorry Dennis, say it again, you are starting to break up.

>> Uwe last time said last time the L shape was in the 

original design it was not in the current design. The difference 

between the two has to do with the turning circle when the bed 

is deployed. From the drawing below the agenda, there is a 

blue line that indicates where the bed is when it's deployed. So 

it comes out from the wall a certain distance. And the issue is 

to make sure there is a turning circle when it's down. Right 

now in the current Amtrak design, there is a turning circle, I 

don't know how big it is. But you can turn around in the room 

when the bed is not deployed. When it's just a couch. As soon 

as you put it down, the turning circle disappears. So, that's the 

basic reason why the length of this via rail is bigger than the 
current Amtrak design. The other difference between the 

current Amtrak design and single level is that in -- there is no 

turning circle inside the restroom.

>> David: Okay, wait. I think that depends because the 

superliner yes there is but single level old view liner no there 

isn't. We are going to be actually replacing those later, though.

>> Dennis: Right. And what we have now is in the 

current regulation, we have referenced a drawing that's 

essentially the old view liner. What we want to make sure that 

we do is get rid of that drawing, and put in whatever the latest 

version is, if there is a better version if we had drawings from 

the new Amtrak standard that would be good to have we could 

use that too. I reference the Via Rail only because that's the 

only one we have right now that shows an accessible 

compartment with internal toilet room. And that has the 

maneuvering clearances. But if there is another one from 

Amtrak that would be actually better than the Via Rail.

>> David: That would be a Blair question. Do you have 

the latest drawings Blair?

>> Blair: I was just going to say that I will take the 

existing superliner and the new cars that (inaudible) is building 

and get those to you with the turning circles superimposed. I

did want to say, though, looking at where that blue line is, it 

looks like maybe what they are doing and I will just explain, if 
you took the cushion that we see in that bedroom, and double 

it, then that's what the Amtrak bed does. But it looks like 

maybe what Via is doing is they are maintaining their circulation 

space by laking -- by making the bed smaller. Which you know 

if everybody wants a smaller bed we can certainly do that.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> That may be true that's one of the issues that I think we 

need to look at carefully. I would like to see a drawing from the 

latest many track thinking about how you are going to design 

this thing to get a reasonable bed and a turning circle when it's 

down.

>> Yes, I will -- I will extract that in the -- from the 

drawings and put in a dash line or something to indicate the bed 

down and then the 60 inch circle superimposed in the room so 

that we can have that discussion.

>> Okay.

>> Blair: You know, maybe it's something that we have 

not seen yet is what it needs to be at least we can talk about 

things as a minimum.

>> David: This is David here, thank you.

>> Dennis: Okay. Do we need to talk about anything 

else?

>> JIM PECHT: Do you want to take the self-service areas 

and add them into the dining car on a where provided basis? 
>> Dennis: I am not sure that that is still -- I don't think 

they have them in the dining car I think that's now considered to 

be a cafe car is that right Blair. Two different things the dining 

where people sit at tables and then there is a cafe car which may 

have a snack bar and may have stable tables at one end or may 

have some sort of like in the Talgo it's like a bar. You have 

little areas where people can kind of sit on the stools and there 

isn't really anything there maybe a table that folds out of the 

wall.

>> Blair: Dennis, this is Blair. One of the great 

confusions from the original ADA was there is a lot of 

conversation about single-level food service cars. And then 

there is, you know, a little conversation about diners, and 

bi-level diners, and then a little bit about lounges. But the -- I 

think we were all working on what we knew at the time. And so 

the single level food service car kind of kind of help muddy the 

waters at the same time. Our single level food service cars was 

a mix of coach seats and tables and things like that. But you 

are right, there is a lot more flexible food service now you know 

with small, little bars bistro-type bar seating and things like 

that. I think the -- I think the key to capturing things without 

going and trying to design the cars is going to be to use 

language that, that, I would say if there is a type of seating 

provided in the vehicle that some quantity of that type of 
seating needs to be provided for wheelchair access. And then 

the challenge is to the designers to figure out how to do that. I

know we did some of that with some converted cars and with 

the Acelas. And it ended up giving us you know, it sort of 

made us break away from the old concept of pack as much into 

the car as you can. And freed us up to leave the car so that you 

could actually move around in it and not be so congested. 

When you are talking about nonrevenue cars like lounges where 

there is no -- there is no ticketed seating, the flexibility is much 

greater because the revenue pressure is off. You want folks to 

come in and enjoy themselves.

>> Dennis: Okay. So I am thinking we want to conclude 

some issues about the self-service part we talked about in the 

dining car, where was that?

>> This is --

>> Dennis: The lounge the self-service areas and 

guidelines from ABA, ADA cafeteria and also include an issue 

about maybe we should call it -- you are right food service cart 

doesn't really say much. Not sure how to capture that.

>> Chris, this is Linda Martin at FRA I rejoined.

>> Dennis: Okay.

>> Linda: Thanks.

>> Dennis: I interrupted somebody who started to say it 

was bomb become
>> This is Andre I found in the regs it's chapter 38.111 

inter-city rail cars and systems it says bi-level lounge cars shall 

have at least one space complying with the regs so right now 

you are increasing that space the quantity of space to two 

instead of minimum 1 maximum of 2, correct?

>> Right. Well, that was the recommendation. The 

question is whether it's go to fly or not, I don't know.

>> Andre: Okay.

>> Dennis: Okay. Let me put some things about 

cafeterias try to deal with this issue of food service bistros and 

what not. We talked about types of seating available, at least 

some should be meet the requirements for wheelchair users and 

transfer. And --

>> Hey Dennis this is Linda Martin again at FRA I don't 

know if anybody about theed out the guidance that OST put out 

regarding bistro and lounge cars where there is nothing in the 

regulation applying the ADAAG standards. There is guidance 

they put out last year or so in response to questions on this 

topic, where there was uncertainty about what the requirements 

would be for these sort of newer bistro type of cars where there 

might be self-service elements.

>> Dennis: Can you send me a link to that?

>> Linda: Sure.

>> Dennis: I see, send it to Jim.
>> Linda: I can do that.

>> That would be great.

>> Blair: Linda, this is Blair I am curious with that guide 

dance now that we are actively talking about these things is 

there reasonable opportunity to -- where there is -- where the 

architectural guidelines may be extreme when applied to a rail 

car? Is this the opportunity to give definition where there was 

none before? And sort of making more sense out of that? 

Achieving the sort of the goal of what that guidance was but 

really strictly applies it to rail?

>> Dennis: I think this -- this is Dennis. I think that's 

exactly what we need to do.

>> Blair: Thinking about it, that guidance sort of filled a 

void and opened up a Pandora's box all at once.

>> Linda: This is Linda again, what the guidance says is 

that you refer to those standards unless it's not feasible based 

on the geometric constraints of a rail car design. It anticipated 

that being an issue but didn't spell out where that might be an 

issue because it wasn't just mainly to let entities know hey don't 

forget about other elements if there is not something specific in 

the regulation because you know back in '91 there were 

no -- there were dining cars and not bistros, these other things 

that evolved since then. 

>> Blair: I understand that the only thing is if there is 
some areas that in architecture -- well, feasibility and 

practicality and all of that stuff, from the design viewpoint, if 

there is places that we can reasonably nail things down then I 

think we are, with respect to rail, I think we are way ahead of the 

gape. Then you don't get into the soft part of trying to argue 

what is feasible and what isn't. And with no firm stake in the 

ground to say, today, that we did something and that design 

was good and it was approved because there is no approval 

process then you get down 10 years or 5 years or two years you 

are still making the same justifications over and over again to 

the feasibility of something that was done in the past. And it 

just -- you never get away from it. So any place that we can 

firm things up between the architectural and nonexistence of 

rail regs, I think we are -- it makes life easier going forward.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. That's exactly what we are 

hoping that you guys will do.

>> The age old battle between lawyers and engineers.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: No.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> What I am hoping to do is take the architectural 

drawings -- requirements and essentially then discuss them and 

try to come up with the limits that say, well, okay that's a good 

idea but it doesn't -- in ability but it work on a car here is why 
we need to adjust it to be some other number instead of that. 

And that's the kind of thing that I think we want to come up with 

ultimately.

>> Dennis, I agree. I just wanted to clarify that. That 

was -- that the guidance letter was -- that we could manage it 

what we were going to do would actually help that guidance.

>> Right.

>> David here I got a question for Linda. So, about the 

OST, OST guidance letter, now has the FRA issued -- I don't 

know what the proper terminology would be. But have they 

issued like a technical manual or a technical spec for those 

points raised? For example, the cafe car counter has to be 

lower according to whichever or whatever it says in the ADAAG. 

And then do we have anything like that with technical specs? 

Because I think -- because I can think of 3, 4 maybe 5 things 

that should have been -- should have been done in our existing 

rail cars.

>> To answer your question, no there isn't. All of the 

guidance -- all that the guidance says is that where you don't 

have a standard you can look for -- to the ADAAG building 

standards as guidance for what the number should be. Like the 

height of a counter top. It doesn't say it has to be that. It says 

if you don't have a number, and you are looking for a number of 

what might be accessible, look at the building standards for a 
number. It's, yeah it's not prescriptive at all.

>> Okay. I guess because I was involved with a PRIIA 

committee there was one issue that I'm sorry raised -- I had 

raised many times over they said, and I wish I could use or I wish 

I used OST as an argument but now I think that's kind of -- that 

kind of got lost it was approved as part of the PRIIA standards.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: And this is Chris, just to be clear, 

(inaudible) can clarify if I am mistaken part of the reason why 

this guidance was issued was there was there was considerable 

progress in some areas including PRIIA where it became obvious 

that there need to be a very explicit directive by FRA to make 

sure, if it wasn't in the regs you could refer to the building regs.

>> Linda: Right, right, the other argument we get 

occasionally if it's not in there we don't have to do anything at 

all. That's not the point it's supposed to be usable by. That's 

in the part 37. So, yes.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: (inaudible) see no evil hear no evil 

but they forget the general law of nondiscrimination always 

applies.

>> Linda: Correct.

>> Dennis: Are we done?

>> Dennis? What about -- I was thinking you know 

cafeterias and stuff and tray rails and things how about vending 

machines? I don't know that anything is said in the current rail 
regs I know there are vending machines on trains now that is apt 

to expand over time in some areas

>> At the -- that's a DOJ regulation.

>> Dennis: Well the problem -- well, it's tricky vending 

machines in many ways are furniture, so, those aren't regulated 

by the guidelines those are covered by DOT and DOJ issues. 

The difference, however, is things like fair vending machines 

which are you know arguably vending machines, they are 

covered in the standard and some question has to do with 

whether you can really do that. Whether the standard should or 

should not -- we sort of dodged that issue in writing the 

standards in part because those things aren't really movable. 

They are -- they are cabled heavily into the floor while they look 

like vending machines you can't just put them on a dolly and 

wheel it out of the building. The question is the vending 

machines in a train car, I am not sure what they are. We have in 

the new ADA, ABA guidelines there are things, discussions 

about -- I don't know what the standard is, for point of sale 

machines there is efforts to try to regulate those kinds of things. 

But they basically have to deal with things like approach area 

you know clear floor space in front of them and the height of 

the controls to reach them.

>> Okay. Well --

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just to be clear DOT has some 
open efforts going on for self-service transaction machines that 

are kiosk and airports and Jim can tell the folks on where the 

board is with the self-service transaction machines.

>> Blair: This is Blair again. Just to go back to Chris's 

definition of what we are allowed to touch in our work, if you 

take the car and pick it up and shake it what falls out is not part 

of our work. But in the case of rail cars, if you shake the car 

and the vending machine comes out there are at least folks --

>> You are in trouble.

>> Folks are really upset.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Blair: I would say I will take a bold stand and say if it's 

a vending machine inside of a train, it is as much a part of that 

train as any component that gets applied. So I would say it's 

within our range to -- to recommend requirements.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim with the Access Board there are 

standards both scoping and technical in the guidelines and 

standards for vending machines they are for the fixed or built in 

machines. So I would say those would be very applicable to 

what we are talking about if you got a vending machine bolted 

to the car it's not moving it's a fixed thing you could probably 

apply the standard to it. The standard like Dennis said clear 

floor space and operable parts that apply to it.

>> Blair: I want to make sure that we capture that because 
it was sort of an oddity 20-some years ago that you would do 

that in a real car.

>> JIM PECHT: You could probably make that a subsection 

of yourself serve areas.

>> This is Linda FRA that has come up a couple of times 

with a few entities about vending machines so they definitely are 

being put on rail cars.

>> JIM PECHT: Folks this is Jim you have 9 minutes left in 

the call.

>> Dennis: Right. So, I am going to take all of that 

together and I am going to redo this what started out to be an 

agenda, and we will try to get it around everybody and see if I 

captured all of the stuff that we are looking for.

>> Dennis to clarify my homework to send you information, 

I am going to send you single level dining car floor plans, that 

shows options of what we went through. Bi-level lounge floor 

plans of what is existing. And, also, the sleeper foot -- floor 

plan with in all cases with the 60-inch turning circle. 

Superimposed.

>> I think if Ed Steinfeld were on the call you need to 

change the 60 inch circle you need to make it bigger for new 

mobility aids my Guthrie action is in the confined space of the 

rail car that may not be doable. It may mean some of these 

bigger mobility aids are going to have to do a lot more 
jockeying back and forth to turn around. I am not sure we can 

do a lot about that.

>> Blair: We will run out of car somewhere.

>> Dennis: Yeah. Well they have these motor -- RVs 

where the walls you know kind of crank out and expand so you 

could have the wall expand out and then as soon as you go you 

are going to pass a train on the other track it has to be 

contracted in.

>> That would be an adventure.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Dennis this is Frank I had a question about the power 

door controls 12 inches.

>> 12 inches from inside corner, so you don't -- you have 

a corner there you don't want to put it in so close because the 

front of my chair the footrests are going to stop me from 

getting up close. If you put a way in the corner I am going to 

have a hard time reaching it, it needs to be back 12 inches from 

the -- outside corner is fine inside corner needs to be back 

where I can reach it.

>> The problem is if you look at some of our bathrooms 

that we have, the door that the closing edge of the door is at the 

corner of the bathroom. So every inch that you move the 

handle away from the corner is another inch longer that you 

need to make the door in order to have the same clear opening. 
Because -- if you can picture a sliding door in your mind. If 

you put, for example, that the handle 12 inches away from the 

corner, and you still leave the edge in the same area. That door 

has got to be 12 inches longer.

>> Andre: There is a solution to that power doors you 

could have a pushbutton properly located to actuate the opening 

of the door.

>> Right. But you still need a handle in case the power 

door operator doesn't work. Sometimes things break down. 

Especially power door operators

>> Right.

>> The person to get into the bathroom still if the power 

door or get out of the bathroom which might be more 

important. So, you still have to account for that, that's where 

the concern comes in putting a handle that you can actually use 

in that area.

>> I don't think we are talking the handle door for the 

latch. We are talking about the control in the power mode.

>> Dennis: We can't necessarily plan for all equipment 

failure. We do say things like there has to be a manual override 

but I am not sure that that -- I think we can clarify the issue we 

are not concerned with that being necessarily the thing that I 

normally open the door with. I am assuming that if there is 

power failure there is going to be some personnel around and 
something and emergency situations are different from standard 

operating procedures.

>> The manual override device wouldn't have to meet that 

requirement.

>> That's my idea, yeah.

>> Blair: I would like to say I am amazed because you 

know Long Island has equipment failures here at Amtrak we 

never have equipment failures.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> That's true, that's true.

>> Right? I wish.

>> The other quick question I have for you Dennis is the 60 

inch turning circle I understand why you added it, it winds 

up -- you wind up losing more than you would think as a result 

of that. The question was did 35 by 60, do you know where 

that came from?

>> Dennis: 35 by 60.

>> The clear floor space currently required.

>> In the bathroom

>> Sorry in the bathroom.

>> It was a guess.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> The idea was to -- we were looking at the issue of the 

current reg which basically puts the design which puts the aisle 
down the center. And the idea was how much space can we 

squeeze out of there, we made a little wider which is the 35 that 

was basically determined by that is how much space you could 

get, period. And then the length was increased to give some 

more room for back and forth jockeying for maneuverability 

those numbers from dreamed up based on the, you know the 

constraints in sort of the current or at that time the oldie 

sign -- old decide of the so-called accessible restroom we all 

agreed was not really an accessible restroom but that was 

basically the best we could do. Those numbers came off the 

top of my head basically.

>> Okay. The stop of your head -- the top of your head is 

usually pretty good. The 35 by 60 really is not functional at all.

>> Correct.

>> That is unfortunate. It just so happens -- I am looking 

at the layout in our cars you can fit the bathroom we have 3 and 

2 seating you can fit a bedroom within a clear floor space in the 

three-seater aisle and still not have any seats across from their 

lost in order to get the 60 inch turning circle you are talking 

about 3 to 4 seats that would have to be removed to accomplish 

that. And then you wind up with a relatively narrow area 

actually, no you should have the 32 inches you are probably 

have 45, 50 inches to the wall. But then the wall is on the side 

of the car now. Instead of down the middle. Which -- you 
lose the line -- I was wondering if those issues were part of the 

reason for the 35 by 60.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank slightly off topic are you in a 

position like we are (inaudible) seat and want us to remove the 

middle seat from the --

>> Oh, in a --

>> Guys we have less than a minute here we have to shut it 

off at 3.

>> That little fold down seat was a design that maybe you 

could swing around if you couldn't do a standing transfer. But 

that was, again, just the kind of a design idea it never works 

because you can't fold it up or if it gets down you can't fold it up 

because it's too heavy and too hard we have to leave this thing. 

We are out of time. And I think that is going to be the end of 

the discussion. Right?

>> JIM PECHT: Yep. We are done.

>> Anybody have final word, if not we will talk to you next 

time.

>> Thank you Dennis.

>> Thank you.

>> Bye you all.

>> ROSE MARIE BUNALES: Thank you operator for all of 

your help today. (End of meeting.)