### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES OF AMERICA + + + + +**  **ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY**

**+ + + + + SILOXANES MEETING** 

**+ + + + +**

**WEDNESDAY AUGUST 21, 2013** 

**+ + + + + The meeting came to order in Room**  **4225, 1201 Constitution Ave, NW, Washington, D.C. at 10:00 a.m., Ward Penberthy presiding.** 

**EPA STAFF PRESENT WARD PENBERTHY, EPA**  **STEVE ANDERSON, EPA, OGC JOE AVCIN, EPA**  **STAN BARONE, EPA, OPPT KAREN EISENREICH, EPA, OPPT**  **CATHY FEHRENBACHER, EPA PAUL LEWIS, EPA, OPPT**  **NHAN NGUYEN, EPA WARD PENBERTHY, EPA**  **SARA POLLACK, EPA, OPPT MARK SELTZER, EPA**  **TODD STEDEFORD, EPA, OPPT DAVID TOBIAS, EPA** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **NON-EPA STAFF PRESENT BRYAN ALEXANDER, Wacker** * **GENE BROWNING, ShinEtsu Silicones of America*** **TRENT DOYLE, SEHSC**

**LISA DUMARS, Momentive MPM Silicones*** **HUGH FLACK, SEHSC TRACY GUERRERO, SEHSC**  **JENNY HOPKINSON, Inside EPA*** **WENDY KOCH, Epona RAY LUDWISZEWSKI, Dow Corning**  **RUSSELL MAIT, Evonik**

**DEBRA MCNETT, Dow Corning*** **KATHY PLOTZKE, Dow Corning KRISTEN SMITH, Momentive**  **CHARLES STAPLES, SEHSC ALLISON STARMANN, SEHSC**  **KARLOSS THOMAS, SEHSC**

*** Present via Telephone**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3** 

**A-G-E-N-D-A**

**Introductions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4**

**Review of Agenda. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6**

**Test Standards. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12**

**Influent/effluent Sampling Location . . . . . 82 Biota . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .103**  **Sediments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .150 Biosolids . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .152** 

**Next Steps. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .213**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **10:06 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: All right, why** 

### 4 **don't we go around the room here to get a roll** 

### 5 **call here. We'll go this way. My name's Ward** 

### 6 **Penberthy at EPA.** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Cathy** 

### 8 **Fehrenbacher, EPA.** 

### 9 **MR. LEWIS: Paul Lewis, EPA.** 

### 10 **MR. SELTZER: Mark Seltzer, EPA.** 

### 11 **MR. ANDERSON: Steve Anderson,** 

### 12 **EPA.** 

### 13 **MR. STEDEFORD: Todd Stedeford,** 

### 14 **EPA.** 

### 15 **MR. BARONE: Stan Barone, EPA.** 

### 16 **MS. POLLACK: Sara Pollack, EPA.** 

### 17 **MS. EISENREICH: Karen Eisenreich,** 

### 18 **EPA.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: Russell Mait, Evonik.** 

### 20 **MR. THOMAS: Karloss Thomas,** 

### 21 **SEHSC.** 

### 22 **MS. PLOTZKE: Kathy Plotzke, Dow**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 Corning.**  

### 2 **MR. STAPLES: Charles Staples for** 

### 3 **SEHSC.** 

### 4 **MR. FLACK: Hugh Flack from Wacker** 

### 5 **Chemical Corporation.** 

### 6 **MR. DOYLE: Trent Doyle for SEHSC.** 

### 7 **MR. AVCIN: Joe Avcin, EPA.** 

### 8 **MR. NGUYEN: Nhan Nguyen, EPA.** 

### 9 **MR. ANDERSON: Steve Anderson,** 

### 10 **EPA.** 

### 11 **MS. KOCH: Wendy Koch, Epona.** 

### 12 **MS. GUERRERO: Tracy Guerrero,** 

### 13 **SEHSC.** 

### 14 **MS. SMITH: Kristen Smith,** 

### 15 **Momentive.** 

### 16 **MS. STARMANN: Allison Starmann** 

### 17 **for SEHSC.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Well,** 

### 19 **thanks for coming today. We have a busy** 

### 20 **agenda. Thanks for all your submissions.** 

### 21 **There's a lot there. So we got it on Friday.** 

### 22 **We've done our best to go through it all.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 Obviously that review hasn't been as complete**  

### 2 **as we want.** 

### 3 **But I think we can go through this** 

### 4 **stuff and give you some feedback. And we hope** 

### 5 **to get your overview of what you did and why.** 

### 6 **So, we have the agenda. What I'd** 

### 7 **like to do is just go through the current** 

### 8 **draft of that. I think there's a few things** 

### 9 **that are of a technical nature that could be** 

### 10 **resolved here very quickly.** 

### 11 **And then --** 

### 12 **MR. BROWNING: Ward?** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes?** 

### 14 **MR. BROWNING: This is Gene** 

### 15 **Browning representing ShinEtsu Silicones of** 

### 16 **America. Can we also find out who else is on** 

### 17 **the phone?** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, sure. Go** 

### 19 **ahead.** 

### 20 **MR. SELTZER: Folks who are on the** 

### 21 **phone, please announce yourself. I heard Gene** 

### 22 **Browning and Debra. And one other name. Can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 you announce yourself, please?**  

### 2 **MS. HOPKINSON: Yes, this is Jenny** 

### 3 **Hopkinson of InsideEPA.** 

### 4 **MR. SELTZER: Thank you, Jenny.** 

### 5 **Who else on the phone?** 

### 6 **MS. MCNETT: This is Debra McNett** 

### 7 **from Dow Corning but I also have Jason Kim,** 

### 8 **Laney Rantham and Gary Siderki from Dow** 

### 9 **Corning.** 

### 10 **MR. SELTZER: Anyone else on the** 

### 11 **phone?** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. So getting** 

### 13 **back to where we were. So hopefully we'll get** 

### 14 **through the current draft very quickly and** 

### 15 **resolve some of those minor issues.** 

### 16 **If it was all right with all you** 

### 17 **I'd like to reverse 3 and 4. We have a couple** 

### 18 **of -- at least one key technical person that's** 

### 19 **going to have to disappear later in the day.** 

### 20 **So if we could go over the testing first.** 

### 21 **This is the POTW that would help us a lot.** 

### 22 **And then I guess we would hope to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 take a break for lunch in the 12 to 1 time**  

### 2 **frame. And we can go down to the Ronald** 

### 3 **Reagan Building. We'll show you how that will** 

### 4 **work.** 

### 5 **But so anyway, can we start with** 

### 6 **just going through the ECA document as it** 

### 7 **stands and then maybe we can set aside some of** 

### 8 **these issues?** 

### 9 **The first one is on page 5. Just** 

### 10 **a requirement of the ECA that it specifies the** 

### 11 **chemical that's being tested. And we had** 

### 12 **language in here that's saying testing for D4** 

### 13 **in any form found in the environment relevant** 

### 14 **to the medium of the example. I don't know if** 

### 15 **you have alternative language or preferences** 

### 16 **there but we're just trying to say hey, we're** 

### 17 **just looking for D4.** 

### 18 **MR. DOYLE: What we had thought** 

### 19 **there was to try to just make it as simple and** 

### 20 **straightforward as possible. Really just say** 

### 21 **the testing of -- this ECA requires testing of** 

### 22 **specified environmental media for the presence**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 of D4 and you could put RN, CAS number and**  

### 2 **this and that.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: Fair enough. So** 

### 4 **if you could -- okay. That's not a problem.** 

### 5 **On page 7 there's a comment on the** 

### 6 **precise percentage of wastewater from** 

### 7 **industrial sources in the POTW. I think we** 

### 8 **should probably defer that to the later -- to** 

### 9 **the POTW discussion. Because then that --** 

### 10 **when we come to an arrangement on that that** 

### 11 **language can be read back.** 

### 12 **The test standards, we're going to** 

### 13 **have discussion on that. So again we can work** 

### 14 **on that.** 

### 15 **At the bottom it appears to me** 

### 16 **that all the GLPs are included in all the test** 

### 17 **standards. So I don't know -- is there** 

### 18 **further discussion warranted here or not?** 

### 19 **MR. DOYLE: Well, maybe when we go** 

### 20 **through the test standards -- we'll go through** 

### 21 **the test standards and you can just --** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 MR. DOYLE: -- language.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: Fair enough. On** 

### 3 **page 8 there's detection limits. I think the** 

### 4 **way this should read is that detection limits** 

### 5 **that are specified in the test standards would** 

### 6 **be a better way. So we can change language** 

### 7 **there. Because again that rolls back from** 

### 8 **those.** 

### 9 **The force majeure language is not** 

### 10 **necessarily a technical issue but I think we** 

### 11 **can work something out there. I don't see** 

### 12 **that as --** 

### 13 **MR. DOYLE: We've had some minor** 

### 14 **edits to that that I'll provide to you and** 

### 15 **follow-up progress.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Fair** 

### 17 **enough. The names and addresses on 13 and 14,** 

### 18 **we can add those at the end. That's not a** 

### 19 **problem.** 

### 20 **I think when you get to the** 

### 21 **Appendices 1, 2 and 3, again I think things** 

### 22 **will roll back from the test standards.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 I will point out though I think in**  

### 2 **Appendix 2, you know, how it's drafted wasn't** 

### 3 **-- in the first paragraph and those bullet** 

### 4 **points really doesn't necessarily look like** 

### 5 **exactly what we were after. So we might --** 

### 6 **there might even be some changes there. But** 

### 7 **again that will roll out of the POTW** 

### 8 **discussion I think as well will all those** 

### 9 **other items. So we resolved several issues** 

### 10 **there.** 

### 11 **On Appendix 4 we have the listing** 

### 12 **of the test standards. Actually, how they're** 

### 13 **titled here is how yours are titled. So we'll** 

### 14 **need to change that.** 

### 15 **I think probably each test** 

### 16 **standard needs a separate appendix. That just** 

### 17 **would make sense to me. So we'll go ahead and** 

### 18 **do that. And so, okay. So I think we made** 

### 19 **some progress on at least a couple of simple** 

### 20 **issues there.** 

### 21 **MR. DOYLE: And what we were** 

### 22 **thinking to is the follow-up we would provide.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 Some of the specific comments on one of those,**  

### 2 **sort of the reconciling if you will of the** 

### 3 **various aspects.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. DOYLE: The polishing things.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. So, when** 

### 7 **were you going to pass that along to me?** 

### 8 **MR. DOYLE: Well, we can maybe get** 

### 9 **to it at the end in terms of the timing. But** 

### 10 **yes.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Fair** 

### 12 **enough. So now we're onto agenda item number** 

### 13 **4. We skipped number 3 and go through the** 

### 14 **test standards. I think David, you might want** 

### 15 **to come up and sit at the table here.** 

### 16 **I think what we want to go through** 

### 17 **is the surface water. Which one do you want** 

### 18 **to start with? The surface water and the fish** 

### 19 **one?** 

### 20 **MR. TOBIAS: There are -- I think** 

### 21 **there are sort of similar issues in** 

### 22 **understanding all of them. So we could --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 unless --**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: Which one do you** 

### 3 **want to take first?** 

### 4 **MR. TOBIAS: Pick one. Which one** 

### 5 **have you got on top there? Surface water** 

### 6 **sample, let's take that one.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. TOBIAS: It's the same -- sort** 

### 9 **of the same issue as well as the sediment.** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. So maybe to** 

### 11 **start off with if you all want to give the** 

### 12 **overview of the surface water and then we can** 

### 13 **start there and go through it. And identify** 

### 14 **any issues we may have or things we need to** 

### 15 **work on.** 

### 16 **MR. STAPLES: Okay. On behalf of** 

### 17 **SEHSC this is Charles Staples. And I with** 

### 18 **quite a number of technical colleagues put** 

### 19 **together the draft standards for this.** 

### 20 **With regard to surface water** 

### 21 **reading the draft ECA it specified that** 

### 22 **surface water shall be collected from the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 receiving water as close as possible to the**  

### 2 **release point of the facility. So this in our** 

### 3 **view means as close to the outfall as** 

### 4 **practical given the other text providing** 

### 5 **adequate mixing of the discharge from the site** 

### 6 **and the receiving water has occurred.** 

### 7 **In a practical sense to us to** 

### 8 **identify a location in the stream where the** 

### 9 **outfall and the receiving water are mixed is** 

### 10 **the end of the mixing zone. So we proposed** 

### 11 **that the sampling location for surface water** 

### 12 **be at the end of the mixing zone.** 

### 13 **That would also be the location --** 

### 14 **this is moving ahead a bit but it's pertinent.** 

### 15 **That would also be the location where the fish** 

### 16 **would be collected for the -- as part of the** 

### 17 **biosample.** 

### 18 **In terms of the standard laid out,** 

### 19 **first of all, how that mixing zone is** 

### 20 **established. There are technologies, a** 

### 21 **variety of technologies that occurs. At each** 

### 22 **site it would be unique, probably be unique.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 So that would be information that would be**  

### 2 **gathered and figured out as part of the** 

### 3 **preparation of the study plans. In terms of -** 

### 4 **- so that's the location.** 

### 5 **Then the actual collection, there** 

### 6 **is considerable guidance within various EPA** 

### 7 **documents that provide guidance. In addition,** 

### 8 **for all of these matrices we have some** 

### 9 **methodologies for collection of samples worked** 

### 10 **out.** 

### 11 **And again the exact details will** 

### 12 **be a part of the study plan development. But** 

### 13 **in essence we will be collecting samples for** 

### 14 **the analysis of D4. We will also be** 

### 15 **collecting samples that would be in some cases** 

### 16 **pertinent for surface water, collecting** 

### 17 **samples for QA samples, field blanks, field** 

### 18 **spikes, et cetera, would be prepared. So** 

### 19 **samples for measurement of D4 and then quality** 

### 20 **assurance samples.** 

### 21 **This would happen at two different** 

### 22 **sampling events that would be developed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 Again, site-specific basis exactly when those**  

### 2 **would be collected, but those would be** 

### 3 **collected at two specified sampling events.** 

### 4 **The samples then after collection** 

### 5 **will be sent to an analytical laboratory. As** 

### 6 **part of the preparation for all of this work** 

### 7 **of course we will have to engage a commercial** 

### 8 **testing laboratory that -- with whom we will** 

### 9 **then teach these methods. They'll all be** 

### 10 **brought in house. All the analytical methods** 

### 11 **for all the samples brought in house and** 

### 12 **they'll have to go through a method validation** 

### 13 **process. And then we needed to have the** 

### 14 **samples after the sampling event be analyzed** 

### 15 **in this analytical laboratory which would be** 

### 16 **a GLP-certified facility.** 

### 17 **The specific methods for surface** 

### 18 **water would be based upon the Knoerr 2013** 

### 19 **document that I believe we provided to you.** 

### 20 **If not we'll have it referenced.** 

### 21 **But it has developed a matrix** 

### 22 **specific average method detection limit upon**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 which we will use to calculate the practical**  

### 2 **quantitation limit which is the quantitation** 

### 3 **limit that a laboratory can routinely achieve.** 

### 4 **The math and the numbers are here** 

### 5 **in the text. For surface water this will be** 

### 6 **then a practical quantitation limit in aqueous** 

### 7 **matrices of 0.2 micrograms per liter. That's** 

### 8 **the essence of the surface water standard.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Well,** 

### 10 **thanks for putting this together. You** 

### 11 **obviously put in quite a bit when you look at** 

### 12 **all five or six of these. We did have a** 

### 13 **number of questions and concerns.** 

### 14 **I think there's three major issues** 

### 15 **I think we need to deal with. Oftentimes some** 

### 16 **of these -- there's times when a reference is** 

### 17 **referred to and sometimes we have to hunt** 

### 18 **around in the reference to figure out exactly** 

### 19 **what you're trying to say. So I think in some** 

### 20 **instances, maybe not so much in this** 

### 21 **particular standard, but there's a need for** 

### 22 **more specificity and detail that you pull out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 of the reference and bring it forward.**  

### 2 **And the reason for that is, you** 

### 3 **know, if we're going to agree to something we** 

### 4 **need to know exactly what we want to agree to.** 

### 5 **And I think there were another two** 

### 6 **major issues I think is the level of the** 

### 7 **detection limits. Level of detection, and** 

### 8 **then the number of samples is going to be very** 

### 9 **important to us. So those are sort of the** 

### 10 **higher-level things.** 

### 11 **So maybe, Cathy and David, if you** 

### 12 **have other stuff to add to that? Or do you** 

### 13 **just want to go through all the paragraph by** 

### 14 **paragraph basis? How do you prefer to go** 

### 15 **about this?** 

### 16 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: You know, I** 

### 17 **think we could walk as we were -- again I'll** 

### 18 **stress that we've only had a couple of days to** 

### 19 **look at these. So you're getting our high** 

### 20 **level comments. But these are based on our** 

### 21 **preliminary reviews the high-level comments** 

### 22 **that we have.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 So it might be helpful to maybe**  

### 2 **walk through the document and we could point** 

### 3 **to some of the areas where we had questions** 

### 4 **and suggestions.** 

### 5 **So on the mixing zone issue, and I** 

### 6 **see that there's a USEPA document. Would that** 

### 7 **be the document that we would use for** 

### 8 **determining where the mixing zone is and where** 

### 9 **you would sample?** 

### 10 **MR. STAPLES: Well, the sections** 

### 11 **of the documents that we've cited will guide** 

### 12 **us in figuring out how to discern the mixing** 

### 13 **zone at each of the receiving waters.** 

### 14 **Again, the specifics of that will** 

### 15 **be dependent on the specifics of the receiving** 

### 16 **waters. Some will be small, some will be** 

### 17 **large, et cetera. But these sections of these** 

### 18 **guidance documents provide us a basis for** 

### 19 **developing methods to figure out where the** 

### 20 **mixing zone is.** 

### 21 **MR. MAIT: Charles, could I ask** 

### 22 **you a question? For all of these POTWs**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 they're already permitted, are they not? They**  

### 2 **already have a permit from the EPA or from the** 

### 3 **state authority, correct? So wouldn't the** 

### 4 **mixing zone already be defined by the POTW?** 

### 5 **MR. MAIT: We certainly hope so.** 

### 6 **I don't know that in every case. But if it's** 

### 7 **already worked out as part of the permit then** 

### 8 **that work is finished. But it is I think** 

### 9 **important to establish that for each of the** 

### 10 **receiving waters. It is the end of the mixing** 

### 11 **zone that is the appropriate location for** 

### 12 **collecting the samples.** 

### 13 **MR. LEWIS: Let me just add that** 

### 14 **in terms of referring to this document here,** 

### 15 **identification of publicly owned treatment** 

### 16 **works, the tables you have here identify with** 

### 17 **the EPA's permit. So identifying the other** 

### 18 **ones that you identify so I think they all --** 

### 19 **they all have permits identifying them.** 

### 20 **MR. MAIT: Yes. And they all do** 

### 21 **have mixing zones defined. There's no way for** 

### 22 **them to have a permit without -- because it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 goes into federal waters or waters of the**  

### 2 **state. Therefore there must be a mixing zone** 

### 3 **defined. Otherwise they wouldn't have a** 

### 4 **permit.** 

### 5 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: So this, I** 

### 6 **think the mixing zone document is actually one** 

### 7 **of the documents that you provided to us. And** 

### 8 **it actually looks like it's a compilation of** 

### 9 **documents. So it's hard for us to discern of** 

### 10 **this compilation of documents how are you** 

### 11 **going to -- which procedures are you going to** 

### 12 **utilize.** 

### 13 **So I think what we'd like to do is** 

### 14 **to have these test standards more or less be** 

### 15 **high level stand-alone documents so that as** 

### 16 **Ward said we will all, the interested parties** 

### 17 **will all have an understanding of the tests** 

### 18 **that are going to be conducted when we sign** 

### 19 **off on the ECA. And at this point in time we** 

### 20 **don't have that.** 

### 21 **And I understand that there are** 

### 22 **certain aspects associated with field sampling**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 that you really won't know until you get out**  

### 2 **in the field. And certainly the site-specific** 

### 3 **sampling plan will have more detail. But I** 

### 4 **think at this point in time you probably have** 

### 5 **a high-level understanding of how you're going** 

### 6 **to determine the mixing zone. And so I think** 

### 7 **what we'd like to do is to have more of that** 

### 8 **understanding summarized in the test standard.** 

### 9 **MR. DOYLE: So, Cathy, just so I'm** 

### 10 **clear. So if we've established -- we have a** 

### 11 **pretty good idea that for each one of these** 

### 12 **locations the mixing zone will have already** 

### 13 **been established as part of the permitting** 

### 14 **process.** 

### 15 **So really then what we're going to** 

### 16 **do is when we select the facility contact the** 

### 17 **facility and say inform us based on the** 

### 18 **permitting process where is the mixing zone.** 

### 19 **They'll tell us. And then in our study plan** 

### 20 **or sampling plan that we submit for your** 

### 21 **review it will say facility A, we would do** 

### 22 **samples here. Here's the mixing zone as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 established through the permitting process.**  

### 2 **I think that's sort of what we** 

### 3 **described and really the EPA reference which** 

### 4 **is the compilation of different methods. We** 

### 5 **kind of hope we don't get there because in** 

### 6 **theory it should have been already** 

### 7 **established.** 

### 8 **MR. TOBIAS: Does it say that in** 

### 9 **here?** 

### 10 **MR. DOYLE: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. STAPLES: "For cases in which** 

### 12 **the mixing zone is not known, it should be** 

### 13 **determined" --** 

### 14 **MR. DOYLE: Yes, yes. So that's** 

### 15 **the intent there. Now, maybe we can clarify** 

### 16 **the language to make it more explicit that** 

### 17 **that's the step-wise process. It really is to** 

### 18 **go through the permit. Because we don't want** 

### 19 **to reinvent the wheel here, you know, in terms** 

### 20 **of if it's already been established,** 

### 21 **particularly for regulatory purposes.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: I think with the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 inquiry that we have made with the facilities**  

### 2 **that are in that list that wasn't one of the** 

### 3 **queries that we did to sort of say what is** 

### 4 **your -- define the mixing zone for us a** 

### 5 **priori.** 

### 6 **But if I understand how this** 

### 7 **typically looks that's already been done for** 

### 8 **them because that's part of how they get their** 

### 9 **limits for their effluent limitations. They** 

### 10 **have to have a mixing zone defined for TMDLs** 

### 11 **and other things. They have to understand** 

### 12 **that ahead of time.** 

### 13 **It doesn't make any sense to** 

### 14 **create a new mixing zone that's already been** 

### 15 **established between the permitted facility and** 

### 16 **the state and the federal folks to reinvent** 

### 17 **that.** 

### 18 **So obviously this could be worded** 

### 19 **a little different. If that is a** 

### 20 **misunderstanding that could be worded a little** 

### 21 **different.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, I think the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 phrase "as appropriate" is -- it says "the**  

### 2 **facility operating the permitting authority be** 

### 3 **consulted as appropriate." I think what** 

### 4 **"appropriate" means, do you even need that** 

### 5 **phrase.** 

### 6 **MR. TOBIAS: "Shall be consulted."** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Because that gives** 

### 8 **-- that puts some ambiguity into it that then** 

### 9 **-- you follow?** 

### 10 **MR. MAIT: That's what I said. I** 

### 11 **agree.** 

### 12 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Right. And so** 

### 13 **my suggestion for this issue on the mixing** 

### 14 **zones. And we're having a detailed discussion** 

### 15 **here but this comment is also relevant to the** 

### 16 **other standards. So keep that in mind.** 

### 17 **So you're really talking about a** 

### 18 **hierarchy of approaches, that the best** 

### 19 **approach is that it's been defined as part of** 

### 20 **a permit. And so if that's the case then you** 

### 21 **plan to use that mixing zone.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: And not redefine it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 That's correct.**  

### 2 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Right, and not** 

### 3 **redefining.** 

### 4 **MR. MAIT: No.** 

### 5 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: And then if** 

### 6 **it's not defined in the permit then what's** 

### 7 **your next step?** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: Because there** 

### 9 **seems to be in the bibliography they've given** 

### 10 **you have a choice of multiple approaches. And** 

### 11 **so we don't know what exactly we're agreeing** 

### 12 **to.** 

### 13 **MR. STAPLES: Well, we don't know** 

### 14 **which approach we would use until we define** 

### 15 **the facility, go to the facility and study the** 

### 16 **receiving area. These methods discuss various** 

### 17 **modeling methods and types of field work like** 

### 18 **die studies and so forth that can be used.** 

### 19 **Each of the facilities would be unique with** 

### 20 **receiving water so we wouldn't be able to tell** 

### 21 **you how we're going to do it until we get to** 

### 22 **the facility.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay, so going**  

### 2 **back to the mixing zone compilation of** 

### 3 **documents. Some of the documents in here** 

### 4 **pertain to modeling. So obviously you're not** 

### 5 **going to use those documents for identifying** 

### 6 **the mixing zone. It looks like there are** 

### 7 **other technical documents here that would** 

### 8 **perhaps pertain to mixing zones.** 

### 9 **So I think what we're looking for** 

### 10 **is more -- at a high level more detail in the** 

### 11 **test standards on the overall approach that** 

### 12 **you plan to use.** 

### 13 **And then as we said the details** 

### 14 **will be in the site-specific sampling plans.** 

### 15 **But at this point we know what you plan to do** 

### 16 **if the mixing zone is defined in the permit,** 

### 17 **but then we don't really know what your** 

### 18 **approach is after that.** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. DOYLE: Okay, so just so we're** 

### 21 **clear. You want more specificity about what** 

### 22 **part of the EPA guidance document are we going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 to follow or implement?**  

### 2 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: What I'd like** 

### 3 **is in the test standard a high-level summary** 

### 4 **of the overall approach you plan to use. And** 

### 5 **again it seems as though you're planning a** 

### 6 **hierarchical approach with the preferred** 

### 7 **option is that the mixing zone is defined in** 

### 8 **the permit. And if that's not the case then** 

### 9 **we need to have some high-level understanding** 

### 10 **of what approach you're going to use.** 

### 11 **And we don't need to have the** 

### 12 **details of that approach, but we need to have** 

### 13 **a high-level understanding so that the test** 

### 14 **standard is -- has sufficient detail that we** 

### 15 **all as the interested parties understand how** 

### 16 **the mixing zone is going to be determined.** 

### 17 **Because that's a very important parameter for** 

### 18 **the monitoring.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: However, if we could** 

### 20 **establish for -- and I assume we're going to** 

### 21 **talk about which sites. We can easily** 

### 22 **determine a factual basis whether it exists or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 not. Which leads us out of having to describe**  

### 2 **a hypothetical situation that may never take** 

### 3 **place.** 

### 4 **MR. LEWIS: Right, so on the back** 

### 5 **in terms of language here is that instances** 

### 6 **that does not occur it sounds like we may not** 

### 7 **be having that.** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: Yes.** 

### 9 **MR. LEWIS: Correct? So it sounds** 

### 10 **like in every scenario what you're defining is** 

### 11 **that the mixing zone should be defined.** 

### 12 **MR. MAIT: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. LEWIS: This fallback of using** 

### 14 **other references may not be appropriate to** 

### 15 **base the same -- you've already identified.** 

### 16 **MR. MAIT: Right. And I would** 

### 17 **imagine that the POTW operator is probably not** 

### 18 **going to be interested in some third party** 

### 19 **coming in, redefining a mixing zone for them** 

### 20 **in this process. Because they have a legal** 

### 21 **responsibility for monitoring already. So the** 

### 22 **idea of creating a secondary mixing zone only**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 confuses it.**  

### 2 **I don't want to get in trouble** 

### 3 **with the Water Division. Okay?** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **MR. PENBERTHY: All right, so the** 

### 6 **way we might resolve the specific issue is** 

### 7 **when the POTWs are specifically identified and** 

### 8 **established if mixing zones have been** 

### 9 **established, and if they have then we can** 

### 10 **strip out the "if none else" language here.** 

### 11 **And then you have the specific thing.** 

### 12 **Now, if that isn't the case then** 

### 13 **we have to look at this.** 

### 14 **MR. LEWIS: Right. And that may** 

### 15 **be a case where those may not be one of the** 

### 16 **facilities we want to deal with because** 

### 17 **creating that process isn't going to work with** 

### 18 **the timing that you've provided.** 

### 19 **Creating existing -- from an** 

### 20 **existing facility not having one to creating** 

### 21 **a facility that does have one is not an easy** 

### 22 **process. That is an additional step that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 sort of outside the boundaries of what we're**  

### 2 **trying to do here. I'm not trying to permit** 

### 3 **a POTW, I'm sorry.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: So what I'm** 

### 5 **inferring from your comment is that you might** 

### 6 **want to pick your POTWs that have --** 

### 7 **MR. LEWIS: Well-defined mixing** 

### 8 **zones.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. I** 

### 10 **understand that.** 

### 11 **MR. LEWIS: Okay, good. Should we** 

### 12 **keep going?** 

### 13 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: And then we had** 

### 14 **questions on the number of samples. It looks** 

### 15 **like your -- for all of the toxic standards.** 

### 16 **And again, now we're focusing on surface** 

### 17 **water. It looks like you're proposing to** 

### 18 **collect two samples for analysis of D4.** 

### 19 **And two seems like a very small** 

### 20 **number of samples. We wanted to better** 

### 21 **understand your justification for only** 

### 22 **analyzing two samples for D4.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 MR. STAPLES: The requirements as**  

### 2 **specified in the ECA are that surface waters** 

### 3 **are to be collected from the receiving water** 

### 4 **as close to the release point from the** 

### 5 **treatment facility. So we are reading that** 

### 6 **and establishing that that point, closest** 

### 7 **point would be at the end of the mixing zone.** 

### 8 **The point doesn't have -- doesn't** 

### 9 **represent space. The geometry of a point** 

### 10 **doesn't have dimensions. So we're looking at** 

### 11 **the closest point that can get to the facility** 

### 12 **-- to the outfall that is at the end of the** 

### 13 **mixing zone.** 

### 14 **In our view that's represented --** 

### 15 **on the day of sampling. This is occurring** 

### 16 **during normal operations without -- of the** 

### 17 **facility and without having heavy rainfall, et** 

### 18 **cetera, as also specified in the ECA text.** 

### 19 **Two samples at that point closest to the** 

### 20 **outfall would be representative of that point** 

### 21 **at that point in time.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think that's --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 I guess that's the issue in itself is is it**  

### 2 **truly representative. And there's a QA/QC** 

### 3 **type issue here because obviously this is a** 

### 4 **difficult chemical to sample for given its** 

### 5 **volatility. And so we need some confirmation** 

### 6 **that the sampling you're taking is actually** 

### 7 **claimed to be accurate.** 

### 8 **And then on a statistical basis,** 

### 9 **you know, you can't do anything with two. So** 

### 10 **we're going to need significantly more number** 

### 11 **of samples just to confirm that the actual** 

### 12 **sample that's being taken is representative.** 

### 13 **MR. STAPLES: Well, it's not** 

### 14 **intended to be representative of anything** 

### 15 **other than the point that's specified that you** 

### 16 **take the sample.** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: But we don't --** 

### 18 **just with two samples you probably can't** 

### 19 **understand whether that in fact is an accurate** 

### 20 **result.** 

### 21 **MR. STAPLES: Well, in addition to** 

### 22 **the two samples we're -- for sampling we'll**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 have field blanks and field spikes which allow**  

### 2 **us to have confidence in the samples that are** 

### 3 **collected and analyzed for D4 from the** 

### 4 **standpoint of the collection handling and** 

### 5 **analysis.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: You know, surface** 

### 7 **water sampling is -- you just -- it's a point** 

### 8 **in time. Okay? The medium has no, unlike** 

### 9 **maybe sediment or biosolids, doesn't have any** 

### 10 **time averaging effect. So you need more** 

### 11 **samples, particularly given the difficulty of** 

### 12 **the analytics here to ensure that the** 

### 13 **measurements that are being taken actually are** 

### 14 **real.** 

### 15 **So I think what we would want** 

### 16 **would be on the order of six samples just to** 

### 17 **improve that. And maybe six samples should be** 

### 18 **spread over time.** 

### 19 **MR. DOYLE: When you say spread** 

### 20 **over time what kind of time are you talking** 

### 21 **about?** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, I mean, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 don't know. I mean they're going to be there**  

### 2 **for a sampling event, you know. Whether** 

### 3 **you're talking about over hours, minutes,** 

### 4 **days, weeks, you know, while you're there.** 

### 5 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: One outing.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: In order to do that** 

### 8 **you're physically going to have to be out in** 

### 9 **the water body. So during that period if we** 

### 10 **took, to your discussion, six samples that** 

### 11 **bounded -- because the mixing zone is a two** 

### 12 **dimensional space.** 

### 13 **So if we're taking six samples** 

### 14 **around that boundary is that what you're** 

### 15 **trying to get at, Ward? Because you're not** 

### 16 **going to be able to take it instantaneously at** 

### 17 **six different points all at the same time.** 

### 18 **So if I'm over here, I've got to** 

### 19 **take the boat over here to get point 2 and so** 

### 20 **on. So --** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: I don't think** 

### 22 **we're trying to get at variability across the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 mixing zone. I don't think that's what we're**  

### 2 **--** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: But it's at the** 

### 4 **boundary.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: They're looking for** 

### 6 **repeatability of result.** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: That's the issue.** 

### 9 **MS. PLOTZKE: So actually closer** 

### 10 **in time would be better.** 

### 11 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. MAIT: But I guess** 

### 13 **conceptually what I'm trying to get, you want** 

### 14 **to have more samples to find the boundary, to** 

### 15 **look at that boundary.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: We just want to** 

### 17 **make sure we have a real number.** 

### 18 **MR. DOYLE: Essentially one where** 

### 19 **it replicates --** 

### 20 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: There you go.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 MR. PENBERTHY: Do you have**  

### 2 **anything to add to that? Did we get that** 

### 3 **right?** 

### 4 **MR. TOBIAS: Well, like we said,** 

### 5 **we just started looking at this recently.** 

### 6 **We've also been thinking about whether the** 

### 7 **timing matters. Do you want to go ahead and** 

### 8 **comment on that?** 

### 9 **MR. SELTZER: Can you come closer** 

### 10 **to the phone?** 

### 11 **MR. NGUYEN: We want to see the** 

### 12 **variability over time as well. So probably** 

### 13 **over -- you know, depends on how operations** 

### 14 **run whether it's continuous or whether it's** 

### 15 **over a few hours. But I think we want to see** 

### 16 **the variability of the measurement over time** 

### 17 **as well.** 

### 18 **MR. THOMAS: But now the two** 

### 19 **sampling events is intended to give you that,** 

### 20 **right?** 

### 21 **MR. NGUYEN: Two sampling?** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: No, there's two events.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 MR. TOBIAS: I guess it depends**  

### 2 **what we're talking about, what kind of** 

### 3 **facility in general. But I think it's already** 

### 4 **known that D4 has strong time dependence** 

### 5 **throughout the day for a normal POTW. So I** 

### 6 **think you'd have to be talking about -- that's** 

### 7 **why I was confused by normal operating hours.** 

### 8 **The general POTW is always operating. So it** 

### 9 **depends on which category we're --** 

### 10 **MR. MAIT: I would take issue with** 

### 11 **the variability in the effluent because these** 

### 12 **are -- the concentration in your final** 

### 13 **effluent, the material has been in there for** 

### 14 **days already. So it's homogenized and mixed.** 

### 15 **MR. TOBIAS: I think the Canadians** 

### 16 **already have data for that output, actually.** 

### 17 **That's -- I'm just referring to their work.** 

### 18 **They discussed that at the conference that we** 

### 19 **were at, their data.** 

### 20 **MS. PLOTZKE: So let's keep to the** 

### 21 **surface water for a second. So you get back** 

### 22 **to your variability. The intent here is with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 sampling within the mixing zone you're going**  

### 2 **to reach an equilibrium. You can have** 

### 3 **differences in output throughout the course of** 

### 4 **the day but when you get to the mixing zone** 

### 5 **you've got a number of processes that are** 

### 6 **going on -- you're going to always achieve** 

### 7 **equilibrium.** 

### 8 **MR. NGUYEN: Yes, that's true.** 

### 9 **MS. PLOTZKE: So I think, you** 

### 10 **know, having a certain number of samples and** 

### 11 **making sure you have confidence in the** 

### 12 **replicates that you're taking, I understand** 

### 13 **that. But over time I'm not sure that there's** 

### 14 **-- I mean you're going to achieve an** 

### 15 **equilibrium all the time because you're going** 

### 16 **to have these competing processes.** 

### 17 **MR. NGUYEN: Right, and the mixing** 

### 18 **zone will allow you to achieve it clearly. But** 

### 19 **also there may be variability during the day,** 

### 20 **operations. I mean in any process it has** 

### 21 **variability in the process.** 

### 22 **But you talk about confidence in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 the data. And two samples, again, is --**  

### 2 **MR. THOMAS: We can go back and** 

### 3 **take the six under advisement. There may not** 

### 4 **be a real issue there.** 

### 5 **But I think, if I understood Ward,** 

### 6 **the point here wasn't to get at variability** 

### 7 **during the day. The point was to ensure that** 

### 8 **the number was representative. So as Kristen** 

### 9 **mentioned we're talking about replicates. We** 

### 10 **are going to do two sampling events. That's** 

### 11 **probably your best opportunity to get some** 

### 12 **sense for variability, seasonal variability.** 

### 13 **But I'm not sure the changes during the day,** 

### 14 **I don't think this design was intended --** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think we're** 

### 16 **going to have to evaluate whether in fact the** 

### 17 **mixing zone does achieve equilibrium for D4.** 

### 18 **Because what's the resonance line in the** 

### 19 **mixing zone? You can't --** 

### 20 **MS. PLOTZKE: But that's always** 

### 21 **going to be the same. I mean the same --** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. When you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 get the slug of D4 in there and then what**  

### 2 **happens.** 

### 3 **MS. PLOTZKE: It's going to go to** 

### 4 **equilibrium right away. That's -- you're** 

### 5 **going to drive, those kinetics are going to** 

### 6 **drive it to its equilibrium. You've got the** 

### 7 **solubility limits there, you've got the** 

### 8 **volatility.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: We'll have to look** 

### 10 **at that. I'm not sure that we're convinced on** 

### 11 **that. Because --** 

### 12 **MR. TOBIAS: We'll have to -- yes.** 

### 13 **We'll think more about it and we'll have to** 

### 14 **get back.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: Consider this. If** 

### 16 **you're looking for that level of variability -** 

### 17 **- we still have to do influent and effluent.** 

### 18 **So. So I'm looking at it from a safety and** 

### 19 **logistics standpoint, having people floating** 

### 20 **around in a river all the time to sort of get** 

### 21 **this variability is not -- I don't want to** 

### 22 **lose anybody.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. MAIT: So the easier path if** 

### 3 **you're looking for variability is if you're** 

### 4 **doing it on the effluent that's what's going** 

### 5 **into the mixing zone.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: If you're looking for** 

### 8 **ups and downs that's the most relevant time to** 

### 9 **catch it, isn't it? Because you would be** 

### 10 **timing it with your influent sampling as well.** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: But keep in mind the** 

### 12 **surface water, there isn't -- D4 is not** 

### 13 **detected in surface water. So I mean, if you** 

### 14 **look at all the monitoring that's out there,** 

### 15 **what's the reality? You're going to find it.** 

### 16 **So let's, you know, from a focus perspective** 

### 17 **I'm not sure this is the place where we want** 

### 18 **to --** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay, so we have** 

### 20 **some homework there. Obviously we want** 

### 21 **replicates just to ensure the quality of the** 

### 22 **data. And then we have to understand -- we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 have to convince ourselves on the variability**  

### 2 **issue to understand exactly what we think is** 

### 3 **needed here. So we'll just leave those as** 

### 4 **markers for further discussion.** 

### 5 **MR. STAPLES: And if I could make** 

### 6 **one final point on that. In the ECA it does** 

### 7 **also say that these concentration data are to** 

### 8 **be used to assess the risks to the sediment** 

### 9 **acquired organisms. So if we have the two** 

### 10 **samples collected at the point that you have** 

### 11 **specified and you get a measure of** 

### 12 **concentration. You can conduct the risk** 

### 13 **assessment with the measure of concentration.** 

### 14 **And adding data at other times of** 

### 15 **day are only going to take that up and down.** 

### 16 **So you can accomplish what you suggested you** 

### 17 **want to do with the sampling plan.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: All I would say is** 

### 19 **the more samples you have, the less** 

### 20 **uncertainty. And so it's a matter of** 

### 21 **balancing out how much uncertainty do you want** 

### 22 **to deal with. And we know that two samples**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 aren't going to be enough.**  

### 2 **MR. THOMAS: I think we understand** 

### 3 **that well. But I would say that when you go** 

### 4 **back and you said you wanted to look more into** 

### 5 **the issue of variability. I would encourage** 

### 6 **you to take a second look at the Canadian data** 

### 7 **and in particular look at the concentrations** 

### 8 **of D4 that were found in surface waters. And** 

### 9 **I think Cathy is right, it's -- you're not --** 

### 10 **they weren't able to find it.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay, we'll do** 

### 12 **that. Let's keep going.** 

### 13 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: So then on page** 

### 14 **2 it has language under special** 

### 15 **considerations. You talk about the importance** 

### 16 **of avoiding sample contamination and** 

### 17 **appropriate requirements for collecting and** 

### 18 **handling. And then the next section talks** 

### 19 **about the collection of surface water samples.** 

### 20 **Under the first paragraph you talk** 

### 21 **about specific requirements for sample** 

### 22 **preparation, whether these things should be in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 storage. And then you refer to the Knoerr**  

### 2 **method. So it would be helpful to include** 

### 3 **additional -- a high-level summary there as** 

### 4 **well. Instead of just citing to Knoerr,** 

### 5 **include more information on what you're** 

### 6 **proposing to do.** 

### 7 **I think this is your -- perhaps on** 

### 8 **page 8 I see storage stability, extraction** 

### 9 **recovery, limit and detection, and** 

### 10 **conclusions. So if you could include some** 

### 11 **high-level summary information with better** 

### 12 **describing what you're thinking of using** 

### 13 **there.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: So does this also** 

### 15 **apply, the detail to the sample collection** 

### 16 **aspects of this?** 

### 17 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes. Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: So basically from** 

### 19 **-- the point being from what's written here we** 

### 20 **don't know precisely what we're agreeing to** 

### 21 **here. Do you follow?** 

### 22 **MR. STAPLES: Well, many of those**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 details will be worked out as part of the**  

### 2 **site-specific sampling plan and the study plan** 

### 3 **overall. Many of all the QA things will be in** 

### 4 **the quality assurance project plan.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: I think in this** 

### 6 **case, Charles, I think what they're looking** 

### 7 **for is a little bit more reference. And I** 

### 8 **mean, a lot of work has gone into this** 

### 9 **methodology to really ensure that you don't** 

### 10 **lose it. So the method has been really** 

### 11 **specifically developed. There's probably a** 

### 12 **high-level overview.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: I mean I our** 

### 14 **objective here is let's work out as much as we** 

### 15 **can now so we don't have problems when the** 

### 16 **study plan comes in. You know, there's a** 

### 17 **dispute over exactly what was agreed to and** 

### 18 **what was appropriate.** 

### 19 **So particularly some of these** 

### 20 **references have multiple techniques in them.** 

### 21 **So we want to know what technique are you** 

### 22 **talking about. I understand in some cases you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 won't be able to, you know, there's some**  

### 2 **choices that have to be made on -- in the** 

### 3 **field. But to the extent that you can work** 

### 4 **those out that would be helpful.** 

### 5 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: And again,** 

### 6 **we're not asking for details. We're looking** 

### 7 **for just high-level summary in the test** 

### 8 **standard.** 

### 9 **And then on the QA/QC requirement** 

### 10 **that you specified we'll have to take a closer** 

### 11 **look at those and get back to you.** 

### 12 **In terms of the total organic** 

### 13 **carbon analysis, was there a specific purpose** 

### 14 **that you were going to use that information** 

### 15 **for?** 

### 16 **MR. STAPLES: You asked for it.** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: We asked for that.** 

### 18 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Oh, we asked** 

### 19 **for that.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: That's basically** 

### 21 **the --** 

### 22 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Oh, that's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 right.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: -- we're trying to** 

### 3 **get an understanding of the carbon load.** 

### 4 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: The carbon** 

### 5 **content. Okay. Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Is there an EPA** 

### 7 **test guideline for this?** 

### 8 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Well, that's** 

### 9 **probably -- I think they referred to the big** 

### 10 **APHA document.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 12 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: And that's the** 

### 13 **500 or so page document.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay, so we need** 

### 15 **to evaluate whether that's --** 

### 16 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. STAPLES: Part B and Part C.** 

### 18 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: That tends to be the** 

### 20 **standard for wastewater treatment, is it not?** 

### 21 **MR. STAPLES: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 MS. FEHRENBACHER: For wastewater**  

### 2 **treatment?** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: Right. So the POTW** 

### 4 **would be using that method. Currently they** 

### 5 **have to run their own TOC. So it would be** 

### 6 **comparative.** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. LEWIS: Can we go back one?** 

### 9 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Sure.** 

### 10 **MR. LEWIS: Thank you. For the** 

### 11 **collection of surface water samples the second** 

### 12 **paragraph talked about -- and this is** 

### 13 **something that -- when the surface water** 

### 14 **samples shall be split --** 

### 15 **MR. SELTZER: Folks on the phone,** 

### 16 **can you mute the line, please?** 

### 17 **MR. LEWIS: When the surface water** 

### 18 **samples shall be split into different samples.** 

### 19 **If you could explain why you want to be doing** 

### 20 **that, why you want to split those samples?** 

### 21 **MR. STAPLES: The split sample** 

### 22 **serves as -- it gives a QC sample basically.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 So by splitting it we get the assessment of --**  

### 2 **and my analytical people, yell out, correct me** 

### 3 **if I'm wrong, but it is for looking at** 

### 4 **precision between two methods.** 

### 5 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay, and then** 

### 6 **page 3, analysis of surface water samples for** 

### 7 **D4. You say you're going to use that** 

### 8 **commercial testing laboratory. And I thought** 

### 9 **I heard you say earlier that you were going to** 

### 10 **teach the methods to the laboratory.** 

### 11 **Are there specific qualifications** 

### 12 **for the laboratory that you'll be looking for** 

### 13 **given the special requirements that need to be** 

### 14 **implemented in order to avoid contamination** 

### 15 **and those sorts of issues? It would be** 

### 16 **helpful to include more specificity with** 

### 17 **respect to the qualifications for the** 

### 18 **laboratories that you'll be using.** 

### 19 **So what are your thoughts in terms** 

### 20 **of the qualifications for the laboratory and** 

### 21 **selection, and then teaching them the methods?** 

### 22 **How is all that going to work?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: I can take that one.**  

### 2 **So what we're going to do is obviously** 

### 3 **solicit, put out an RFP and solicit responses** 

### 4 **back from the various laboratories. We've** 

### 5 **indicated on the analytical part GLP, so there** 

### 6 **will be -- part of what we'll evaluate is** 

### 7 **their GLP certification and their experience** 

### 8 **under GLP.** 

### 9 **In addition then on the technical** 

### 10 **aspects and the challenges obviously if we** 

### 11 **have some experience with a laboratory that we** 

### 12 **know has done some work like this that would** 

### 13 **be one of the considerations that we would** 

### 14 **look at.** 

### 15 **But also their willingness to be** 

### 16 **trained. Sometimes it's a matter of the** 

### 17 **laboratory says, you know, I know how to do** 

### 18 **this, we can do this. We really need someone** 

### 19 **that will listen and understand the** 

### 20 **challenges. Because they are rather unique** 

### 21 **that sometimes people don't see right off the** 

### 22 **bat. So their willingness to be trained. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 we will be the ones doing the training. And**  

### 2 **we will also do some assessment up front to** 

### 3 **ensure they can handle things properly,** 

### 4 **potentially giving them some unknown samples** 

### 5 **to analyze, that kind of thing.** 

### 6 **But I think the first part is that** 

### 7 **it needs to be a good working relationship.** 

### 8 **Labs that we know we can have a back-and-forth** 

### 9 **with to ensure that they are following the** 

### 10 **strict procedures that we need and the** 

### 11 **challenges that we have. So the GLP will be** 

### 12 **a given as well.** 

### 13 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. So it** 

### 14 **would be helpful to have more explanation of** 

### 15 **that in here. And it sounds like you've** 

### 16 **thought through that whole process which is** 

### 17 **good.** 

### 18 **Do you have a sense of how long** 

### 19 **that whole process is going to take?** 

### 20 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, we actually --** 

### 21 **what we're trying to do is obviously it's** 

### 22 **going to be somewhat dependent upon the timing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 of everything. But you know, we were hoping**  

### 2 **to get started on that as soon as we probably** 

### 3 **walk out of here today as far as beginning to** 

### 4 **look at the laboratories and evaluate them.** 

### 5 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: But how long do** 

### 6 **you think it will take before you have a** 

### 7 **laboratory up and running and ready to go?** 

### 8 **Based on your experience in getting your own** 

### 9 **labs up to speed. How long does that take?** 

### 10 **MS. PLOTZKE: I mean, it could** 

### 11 **take anywhere from a couple of months to 6** 

### 12 **months. It just depends on the timing of what** 

### 13 **you need and their schedule. That's the other** 

### 14 **part of it. There's when they're available.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: Obviously right now** 

### 16 **we're trying to deal with the overall schedule** 

### 17 **of the ECA with all the timing that's in it.** 

### 18 **So currently even though the clock has not** 

### 19 **started the development of an RFP for this** 

### 20 **purpose is started. And so the identification** 

### 21 **of not only just the labs but the services** 

### 22 **that will be necessary to do the sampling and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 collection and overall project management is**  

### 2 **going on right now. So to give you a specific** 

### 3 **time frame or date is highly speculative.** 

### 4 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Well, just** 

### 5 **trying to understand if it's a multi-month** 

### 6 **process, multi-year.** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: We would love more time** 

### 8 **but I don't think we're going to get it.** 

### 9 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: You know, what** 

### 10 **we're talking about here in terms of that part** 

### 11 **of the process.** 

### 12 **MR. MAIT: We're working under the** 

### 13 **assumption that the timing that's in the ECA** 

### 14 **is the timing we have. And we will use that** 

### 15 **time to achieve that performance out of those** 

### 16 **laboratories.** 

### 17 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. LEWIS: And that will stick in** 

### 19 **terms of validation.** 

### 20 **MR. MAIT: Yes.** 

### 21 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. And then** 

### 22 **our next high-level comment is the practical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 quantitation limit which is not something that**  

### 2 **we're used to using. And we're used to using** 

### 3 **a method detection limit which is quite a bit** 

### 4 **lower than what you're proposing for these** 

### 5 **test standards.** 

### 6 **And we wanted to better understand** 

### 7 **why you need that additional increase in** 

### 8 **detection limit when it appears that you've** 

### 9 **used much lower detection limits in your other** 

### 10 **studies. It just doesn't seem reasonable.** 

### 11 **MR. STAPLES: The practical** 

### 12 **quantitation limit is specified as the minimum** 

### 13 **concentration level constituent to the sample** 

### 14 **that can be measured among laboratories within** 

### 15 **specified limits during routine laboratory** 

### 16 **operations.** 

### 17 **It's our understanding of PQLs** 

### 18 **that the USEPA adopted this concept back in** 

### 19 **1985 because we're talking about analyses of** 

### 20 **samples like we're talking here today that** 

### 21 **would be done at a commercial laboratory that** 

### 22 **probably, possibly never analyzed for this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 material before.**  

### 2 **So working with them to build the** 

### 3 **facility, if necessary, to develop the** 

### 4 **analytical method capabilities within house** 

### 5 **for this will provide some challenges. And in** 

### 6 **our view the practical quantitation limit for** 

### 7 **achieving appropriate levels of -- I think** 

### 8 **your term is limits of detection during** 

### 9 **routine laboratory operations is the PQL, is** 

### 10 **the proper quantity.** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: Just to give some** 

### 12 **perspective to it. So if you look at what we** 

### 13 **have done in the past in our lab as well as** 

### 14 **others that do some of these analysis. We** 

### 15 **have dedicated often rooms, dedicated hoods,** 

### 16 **dedicated instruments that you can -- you** 

### 17 **basically are segregated from the rest of the** 

### 18 **laboratory to prevent any of the** 

### 19 **contamination. There are requirements about** 

### 20 **what you can and cannot wear to shower. Those** 

### 21 **kind of things. That's not practical for a** 

### 22 **commercial laboratory.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 So that's what we're trying to do.**  

### 2 **We're trying to set it up so that it can be** 

### 3 **practical. Because these are going to be** 

### 4 **large numbers of samples that this laboratory** 

### 5 **is going to have to handle. And most of them** 

### 6 **are not going to be outfitted the way we've** 

### 7 **outfitted our labs or the few handful of labs** 

### 8 **that have done it.** 

### 9 **MR. DOYLE: And it's over a period** 

### 10 **of time too which is --** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes. Just** 

### 12 **consistency in people. One person just not** 

### 13 **following the rules that morning can ruin an** 

### 14 **entire batch of samples.** 

### 15 **MR. TOBIAS: I was wondering about** 

### 16 **your decision to use multiple different labs** 

### 17 **within one media. Is that necessary for this** 

### 18 **plan? Because I know in that in -- I think** 

### 19 **they used one facility to do their analytics** 

### 20 **for the different site state shows.** 

### 21 **And I thought that one of your** 

### 22 **scientists had given a talk about developing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 techniques for ensuring sample stability and**  

### 2 **issues like that. I think he was from Dow** 

### 3 **Corning, wasn't he?** 

### 4 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, yes. What I'm** 

### 5 **a little confused on is the multiple labs.** 

### 6 **MR. TOBIAS: I thought you said --** 

### 7 **I thought -- why are you so confused about** 

### 8 **what's in the document. You seemed to mention** 

### 9 **multiple and the PQL was across different** 

### 10 **labs, wasn't it?** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: That's just talking** 

### 12 **about the definition, yes.** 

### 13 **MR. TOBIAS: So you'll be using** 

### 14 **one lab.** 

### 15 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes. So I mean** 

### 16 **that's our intent if we can find somebody.** 

### 17 **MR. MAIT: There's a desire to use** 

### 18 **one facility to do it. However, as this sort** 

### 19 **of develops there's 14 sites with multiple** 

### 20 **types of samples over a very brief period of** 

### 21 **time. It may be necessary that we contract** 

### 22 **with one firm but they have physical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 facilities regionally located to facilitate**  

### 2 **actually getting this done within that 360 --** 

### 3 **MS. EISENREICH: So, assuming that** 

### 4 **you have to use -- that whoever you contract** 

### 5 **with, they have different facilities across** 

### 6 **the country. Would you send, for example,** 

### 7 **your surface water samples to one particular** 

### 8 **facility while your sediment samples might go** 

### 9 **across the country to another of their** 

### 10 **facilities? Or are you wanting to -- do you** 

### 11 **see a potential for splitting those groups of** 

### 12 **samples?** 

### 13 **MR. TOBIAS: Or do you want them** 

### 14 **all to go to one?** 

### 15 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. MAIT: At this level, the** 

### 17 **detail of that at this point, we're not there** 

### 18 **yet. I mean we have to sit down with the** 

### 19 **folks who we're going to contract with and** 

### 20 **actually work through the same question. So** 

### 21 **I don't know that we can speculate. I think -** 

### 22 **-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 MR. TOBIAS: I was just reading**  

### 2 **from the PQL definition and it says different** 

### 3 **laboratories. And then I went to -- I thought** 

### 4 **that meant that you had already envisioned** 

### 5 **there would definitely be different** 

### 6 **laboratories. And it's not necessarily clear.** 

### 7 **So I was wondering if that's the origin of the** 

### 8 **use of a PQL and it sounds like maybe you'll** 

### 9 **be able to do it all at one laboratory.** 

### 10 **MS. PLOTZKE: Well, we have no** 

### 11 **idea until we find the lab. And again, what** 

### 12 **their capabilities are.** 

### 13 **The other challenge sometimes is** 

### 14 **shipping materials, moving them from one** 

### 15 **location to another location. So even in our** 

### 16 **own program.** 

### 17 **So for example, in our voluntary** 

### 18 **product stewardship initiative we have a lab** 

### 19 **in Europe that does the analysis on the** 

### 20 **European samples in one year because trying to** 

### 21 **ship them back and forth is very difficult.** 

### 22 **MR. TOBIAS: Sure.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: So all those things**  

### 2 **will be factored when we're looking at the** 

### 3 **laboratory and what their capabilities are.** 

### 4 **MR. MAIT: We're just anticipating** 

### 5 **that there is a possibility and probably a** 

### 6 **good probability because even with the current** 

### 7 **program there's only two labs within our** 

### 8 **industry that does this. One is in Germany** 

### 9 **and one is in Midland.** 

### 10 **So the idea that we would have** 

### 11 **multiple laboratories, physical facilities, it** 

### 12 **might be run by the same company but it still** 

### 13 **presents the same thing, whether it's a** 

### 14 **different legal entity or not. We still have** 

### 15 **the same challenge here, trying to get these** 

### 16 **labs all to be on the same playing field with** 

### 17 **analytics.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Why don't we just** 

### 19 **cut to the chase. Is the method detection** 

### 20 **limit adequate for our purposes. And then** 

### 21 **once we're back from that what do we need in** 

### 22 **terms of -- what level do you have to measure**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 at?**  

### 2 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Well, I think** 

### 3 **we're looking for these data to be collected** 

### 4 **using detection limits that are comparable** 

### 5 **with other studies that have been conducted.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: And that's been I** 

### 7 **think in the parts per billion. There's low -** 

### 8 **- 1 part per billion, less than 1 part per** 

### 9 **billion.** 

### 10 **MR. TOBIAS: Well, it depends on** 

### 11 **which media.** 

### 12 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes. It just** 

### 13 **seems very unrealistic for us to accept 5** 

### 14 **times -- 5 to 10 times a method detection** 

### 15 **limit that has been used in other studies that** 

### 16 **your companies have conducted.** 

### 17 **MS. PLOTZKE: I don't think from a** 

### 18 **surface water perspective that we have sampled** 

### 19 **surface water. So I'm not sure what you're** 

### 20 **referring to.** 

### 21 **We don't log surface water in our** 

### 22 **program because we know it's probably -- it's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 not going to be there and there are a lot of**  

### 2 **challenges associated with it. So that's not** 

### 3 **been the focus of the program.** 

### 4 **MR. TOBIAS: That was already** 

### 5 **influent and effluent then would be --** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: What did Canada** 

### 7 **get down to? Do we remember?** 

### 8 **MR. TOBIAS: I've got the paper** 

### 9 **here. Canada's --** 

### 10 **MR. THOMAS: I think a lot of the** 

### 11 **surface water were pretty close to the** 

### 12 **detection limit.** 

### 13 **MR. TOBIAS: They cite 9 parts per** 

### 14 **trillion and then they cite their high measure** 

### 15 **as 22 that they found in receiving water.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: Parts per** 

### 17 **trillion.** 

### 18 **MR. TOBIAS: I think that's -- I'm** 

### 19 **just scanning the document.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: So we're a little** 

### 21 **bit off there, right?** 

### 22 **MR. STAPLES: I'm not an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 analytical chemist, but the analytical**  

### 2 **chemists tell me that the detection limit that** 

### 3 **the Canadians developed for surface water was** 

### 4 **based on instrument noise, not procedural** 

### 5 **blindness. Not done in the appropriate way** 

### 6 **for developing limits of detection upon which** 

### 7 **you calculate limits of quantitation and so** 

### 8 **forth.** 

### 9 **In other words developed for a** 

### 10 **specific matrix, in other words a sample.** 

### 11 **Instrument noise only. So that's not an** 

### 12 **appropriate basis for setting a detection** 

### 13 **limit for this type of sampling program which** 

### 14 **is going to go to a commercial lab that's** 

### 15 **possibly never analyzed for these before.** 

### 16 **The method detection limit of** 

### 17 **Knoerr was based upon -- as an average of** 

### 18 **several samples that he prepared and analyzed.** 

### 19 **And again, this is in the Dow Corning** 

### 20 **laboratory with all of the years and years of** 

### 21 **training and methodology development, and so** 

### 22 **forth.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 In a practical sense what we're**  

### 2 **trying to do is take this to a commercial** 

### 3 **laboratory and let them adopt the best they** 

### 4 **can the methods that we've worked out.** 

### 5 **Practical quantitation limit is, I think, the** 

### 6 **right vehicle for setting the levels of** 

### 7 **detection returned for this material in the** 

### 8 **surface water.** 

### 9 **MS. PLOTZKE: We have not been** 

### 10 **able to reproduce the Canadian --** 

### 11 **MR. TOBIAS: And this ties over to** 

### 12 **all the media though. You have the same** 

### 13 **framework between MDL and PQL for each of** 

### 14 **them.** 

### 15 **MS. PLOTZKE: Right.** 

### 16 **MR. TOBIAS: So I don't want to** 

### 17 **get too hung up on surface water. I know** 

### 18 **we're looking at this and then want the other** 

### 19 **ones to look at. It's just -- it's actually** 

### 20 **an across-the-board issue to consider.** 

### 21 **MS. PLOTZKE: yes.** 

### 22 **MR. STAPLES: That's correct. But**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 it's the same issue in that the Dow Corning**  

### 2 **methods were developed over long periods of** 

### 3 **time with lots and lots of history and** 

### 4 **expertise going in it.** 

### 5 **Now, taking this to a new** 

### 6 **laboratory and getting them and all the media** 

### 7 **to develop the capabilities of analysis --** 

### 8 **MR. TOBIAS: I just previously --** 

### 9 **I don't know. Maybe this is naive and outside** 

### 10 **the box of an ECA, but the work can't be done** 

### 11 **at Midland, is that correct?** 

### 12 **MS. PLOTZKE: That's correct.** 

### 13 **MR. MAIT: And not at Evonik?** 

### 14 **MR. TOBIAS: No, none of the** 

### 15 **companies could use their own labs to do this.** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: This is --** 

### 17 **MR. MAIT: Well, we would --** 

### 18 **MR. TOBIAS: What?** 

### 19 **MS. PLOTZKE: This is a huge** 

### 20 **program.** 

### 21 **MR. TOBIAS: Okay.** 

### 22 **MS. PLOTZKE: The number of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 samples.**  

### 2 **MR. TOBIAS: Okay. I didn't know** 

### 3 **what your exactly -- process was.** 

### 4 **MR. DOYLE: Independence.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, independence.** 

### 6 **MR. MAIT: For other reasons as** 

### 7 **well.** 

### 8 **MR. TOBIAS: Okay. I mean, the** 

### 9 **same technical summary. I don't know. But** 

### 10 **okay.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. I think** 

### 12 **what we're going to have to do -- I mean,** 

### 13 **obviously we're approaching this from** 

### 14 **different directions.** 

### 15 **We need a detection limit that is** 

### 16 **appropriate for the kind of risk assessment we** 

### 17 **want to do. And you're working at it from,** 

### 18 **okay, this is what we think a lab can do. So** 

### 19 **we're going to have to huddle on this and give** 

### 20 **you -- basically let you know what we think** 

### 21 **our requirements are with respect to the** 

### 22 **detection limits. So we'll have to get back**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 to you on that.**  

### 2 **MS. EISENREICH: And again, we're** 

### 3 **kind of talking across all of the test** 

### 4 **guidelines here, not just specific on surface** 

### 5 **water. We understand the difficulties with** 

### 6 **the surface water in particular, you know,** 

### 7 **where D4 is going to be. But this is kind of** 

### 8 **goes across all the test standards.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: I mean, because** 

### 10 **ultimately the data has to meet our assessment** 

### 11 **needs. And if it doesn't -- obviously we** 

### 12 **won't be able to get anybody to agree to a** 

### 13 **testing regime that doesn't give them the data** 

### 14 **they need to do the assessment that they need** 

### 15 **to do.** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, and to that,** 

### 17 **and I understand that completely. In respect** 

### 18 **to that too, I guess what we look across it is** 

### 19 **to consider the different matrices that you** 

### 20 **really want in the design. Sediment is a** 

### 21 **different situation than surface water.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Do we have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 more on this one?**  

### 2 **MR. LEWIS: I have a question on** 

### 3 **the GLP.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: Go ahead.** 

### 5 **MR. LEWIS: In your -- your** 

### 6 **statement of the GLP, this is for each one of** 

### 7 **them, solar collection handling, GLP** 

### 8 **requirements as applicable. Can you explain** 

### 9 **what you mean by as applicable? This language** 

### 10 **is occurring for each one of your submissions.** 

### 11 **MR. TOBIAS: So you anticipate** 

### 12 **areas where it won't apply or you're just** 

### 13 **using in case?** 

### 14 **MS. PLOTZKE: Do you want to** 

### 15 **answer that?** 

### 16 **MR. DOYLE: Sure. I mean, I think** 

### 17 **part of it's looking at the GLP regulations** 

### 18 **and seeing what specific requirements are** 

### 19 **really applicable to the particular activities** 

### 20 **that are being talked about in each case.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, I understand** 

### 22 **that some part of the GLPs deal with animal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 handling and stuff that obviously wouldn't.**  

### 2 **But is there anything that's relevant to this** 

### 3 **monitoring that you have in mind?** 

### 4 **MR. DOYLE: Not that we've** 

### 5 **predetermined yet. But I know that there's,** 

### 6 **you know, we identified for this sample** 

### 7 **collection, sampling transfer activities that** 

### 8 **those should be conducted in accordance with** 

### 9 **the GLP requirements. But those details are** 

### 10 **going to be -- when we deal with our vendors,** 

### 11 **the people that are actually going to be doing** 

### 12 **the work and finding a company that can do the** 

### 13 **work in accordance with GLP requirements that** 

### 14 **are applicable to these activities. That's** 

### 15 **really what we're going to -- we have to** 

### 16 **identify those folks that can do that. And we** 

### 17 **want to make certain that there's -- that** 

### 18 **they're not -- we have to be realistic about** 

### 19 **what they can do.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: Do you have a** 

### 21 **specific concern or is it just you haven't** 

### 22 **thought this through?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 MR. DOYLE: No, I think we've**  

### 2 **thought through it in terms of we've done some** 

### 3 **due diligence I think in talking with vendors** 

### 4 **about what people can do when it comes to the** 

### 5 **field sampling portion of the program. And we** 

### 6 **have some -- we want to make sure there's some** 

### 7 **flexibility there and deal with it.** 

### 8 **Because by and large much of** 

### 9 **what's in the GLP regulations is not -- a lot** 

### 10 **of it's not particularly pertinent to the** 

### 11 **actual --** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Understand that.** 

### 13 **MR. DOYLE: So that's really --** 

### 14 **it's just the kind of, you know.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: On the other hand** 

### 16 **they're fairly broad.** 

### 17 **MS. PLOTZKE: But there are some** 

### 18 **very specific requirements that have to be met** 

### 19 **by an institution or a facility. If they** 

### 20 **don't have those in place it's going to take** 

### 21 **them to make --** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: But those -- I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 mean you're not talking about how the -- a lot**  

### 2 **of GLPs is how the facility is run and the** 

### 3 **documentation requirements and all that kind** 

### 4 **of stuff. Are you talking about that kind of** 

### 5 **stuff? Or is it --** 

### 6 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes. Yes. I mean,** 

### 7 **if you --** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, then that** 

### 9 **would have to be applicable. Why couldn't** 

### 10 **they do that?** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: Well, they would** 

### 12 **have certain things on how the facility is** 

### 13 **run. But how they are -- whether or not** 

### 14 **they're a GLP-compliant facility. There are** 

### 15 **certain specific requirements that they would** 

### 16 **have to meet with an independent state** 

### 17 **auditor.** 

### 18 **And that could be very different** 

### 19 **between a firm that does the collection versus** 

### 20 **a laboratory. Because their lab is the field.** 

### 21 **So it's, you know, with the -- the analytical** 

### 22 **part of the samples go to a laboratory and the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 structure of that laboratory is very well**  

### 2 **defined. And instruments are all certified** 

### 3 **and calibrated and all nicely documented.** 

### 4 **But the field for the collection** 

### 5 **part is the building, the lab. And that** 

### 6 **becomes very difficult to achieve that same** 

### 7 **type of structure.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think for us to** 

### 9 **retain that "as applicable" phrase there we'd** 

### 10 **have to know exactly what you're talking** 

### 11 **about. What is the specific concern. Because** 

### 12 **we're supposed to have this done in GLPs and** 

### 13 **that's it. If it can't be done by GLPs I'm** 

### 14 **not sure we -- that's what our regulations** 

### 15 **require. So if "as applicable" introduces any** 

### 16 **uncertainty about the requirement to perform** 

### 17 **to GLPs then I don't know what we do.** 

### 18 **MS. PLOTZKE: I mean, one comment,** 

### 19 **and correct me about doing the due diligence.** 

### 20 **We've done a survey. And most of the firms** 

### 21 **are not going to have that capability. They** 

### 22 **can do it in accordance, you know, so they can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 do it GLP-like, in accordance with GLP, but**  

### 2 **they're not certified GLP facilities like a** 

### 3 **laboratory would be.** 

### 4 **MR. FLACK: So what we're saying** 

### 5 **is the analytical laboratory, we certainly** 

### 6 **feel comfortable we can get GLP-certified** 

### 7 **laboratories to do the analysis. But the** 

### 8 **consulting firm going out in the boat and** 

### 9 **taking the sample? You don't find them. The** 

### 10 **actual consultant going out to pull the** 

### 11 **sample, take the sample physically would not** 

### 12 **be GLP-certified. The lab they send it to** 

### 13 **would. Right?** 

### 14 **MR. MAIT: That's life. That's** 

### 15 **the way it is.** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: I mean that's what** 

### 17 **we're -- we're trying to be practical and** 

### 18 **realistic.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: When you look at other** 

### 20 **programs where a lot of field sampling and so** 

### 21 **on, like a CERCLA issue or a RCRA issue, it is** 

### 22 **in accordance with GLP. They are not GLP-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 certified.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: I'm starting to** 

### 3 **hone in a little bit on the issue. So we're** 

### 4 **going to have to look at that.** 

### 5 **MR. MAIT: And I know what the** 

### 6 **regulation says. And unfortunately I'm** 

### 7 **assuming when it was contemplated originally** 

### 8 **this aspect of doing field sampling was not** 

### 9 **considered. However, when you think about** 

### 10 **RCRA or you think about CERCLA that's exactly** 

### 11 **what was contemplated and that's probably why** 

### 12 **it never made itself into the regulation.** 

### 13 **Because they're not.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. STAPLES: And of course the** 

### 16 **ECA does specify just the study plan, the** 

### 17 **site-specific sampling plans and the quality** 

### 18 **assurance project plans all of which very** 

### 19 **tightly control what's to be done. Those of** 

### 20 **course have to be developed.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Well, we're** 

### 22 **going to look into this. I just don't know**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 what our mobility is here. And I'm not sure**  

### 2 **I fully understand the precise issues except** 

### 3 **the companies are --** 

### 4 **MR. MAIT: They don't have the GLP** 

### 5 **certification. And they don't necessarily** 

### 6 **desire to do it for the sheer, I mean, they've** 

### 7 **got to make money. It's an economic issue.** 

### 8 **MR. FLACK: They could meet, say,** 

### 9 **a RCRA or CERCLA requirement, quality** 

### 10 **requirement, which would be per the EPA** 

### 11 **regulations, but it might not meet the GLP.** 

### 12 **MR. MAIT: No. They normally say** 

### 13 **in accordance with.** 

### 14 **MR. FLACK: Right.** 

### 15 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Have you** 

### 16 **selected or identified a consultant to do the** 

### 17 **sampling? Or is that another RFP that will** 

### 18 **need to go out?** 

### 19 **MS. PLOTZKE: That's another RFP.** 

### 20 **MR. MAIT: We have several** 

### 21 **companies under consideration right now for** 

### 22 **field work as well as general overall project**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 management. And then the secondary part that**  

### 2 **we already covered was the analytical side.** 

### 3 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: We're going to** 

### 5 **have to look into this because I know the EPA** 

### 6 **has had a number of monitoring programs and** 

### 7 **somehow this gets dealt with.** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: And we would be** 

### 9 **interested to find out what the answer is.** 

### 10 **MR. STAPLES: Monitoring programs** 

### 11 **with ECAs?** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: No, just in** 

### 13 **general monitoring programs. Because in** 

### 14 **general we perform work to GLPs. So I have to** 

### 15 **believe people have faced this before.** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: It's probably in** 

### 17 **accordance. There is a difference between in** 

### 18 **accordance and --** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Do we have** 

### 20 **any other on this specific guideline?** 

### 21 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Those are the** 

### 22 **high-level comments. So overall we would like**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 more information, more high-level summary for**  

### 2 **the details that we've been discussing here.** 

### 3 **And that also applies to the other test** 

### 4 **standards as well.** 

### 5 **David, did you have other comments** 

### 6 **on this one?** 

### 7 **MR. TOBIAS: On this one? No. I** 

### 8 **mean, and really, I mean I don't know, I guess** 

### 9 **we should look at the other ones. But I mean,** 

### 10 **a lot of those issues cut across what we just** 

### 11 **described.** 

### 12 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. TOBIAS: And obviously we need** 

### 14 **to go discuss more and figure out what our** 

### 15 **complete viewpoint is.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: So, what's your** 

### 17 **preference for moving forward on these** 

### 18 **specific ones that we've identified?** 

### 19 **MR. THOMAS: I think we've been** 

### 20 **able to capture most of the -- or all of the** 

### 21 **comments. I think we can re-draft it based on** 

### 22 **your feedback.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 MR. DOYLE: Take it under**  

### 2 **advisement and go back and see if we can --** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: And --** 

### 4 **MR. MAIT: I think the** 

### 5 **amplification is pretty simple.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: What's the time** 

### 7 **frame we would be talking about on that?** 

### 8 **MR. THOMAS: Probably talking the** 

### 9 **week of September 9.** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. I think** 

### 11 **that would give us some much-needed time to** 

### 12 **look at the other aspects of the references** 

### 13 **and stuff as well to get more detail. Is that** 

### 14 **going to be in the range of your guys' needs?** 

### 15 **September 9? Are we going to be able to --** 

### 16 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Sure. For the** 

### 17 **others, you know, terms like "as applicable"** 

### 18 **or "appropriate requirements" or "special** 

### 19 **considerations" and then where you just cite** 

### 20 **references in addition to the other more** 

### 21 **specific comments that --** 

### 22 **MR. TOBIAS: We can go through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 each of them. I didn't want to cut that off.**  

### 2 **Do you want to go through them?** 

### 3 **MR. DOYLE: Just to be clear** 

### 4 **though. So what would be helpful for us is** 

### 5 **the stuff that you have to go back and** 

### 6 **consider too. When can we get that feedback** 

### 7 **from you? Because we'd like to be able to** 

### 8 **account for that in whatever we provide you so** 

### 9 **that we don't just have -- talk past each** 

### 10 **other.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: You know, I think** 

### 12 **we'll be working towards that time frame too.** 

### 13 **And then I've got to check in with everyone** 

### 14 **here and see what they can do and what's their** 

### 15 **availability. We have the holiday and the** 

### 16 **free day off, unpaid day off. But I think the** 

### 17 **3-week time frame, I think that's what we're** 

### 18 **talking about.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: Yes.** 

### 20 **MR. DOYLE: Because it would be** 

### 21 **nice to have that in full. We don't want to** 

### 22 **just keep giving you --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 MR. PENBERTHY: Right. Well, I**  

### 2 **mean there's a certain number of things like** 

### 3 **what our needs are in terms of the detection** 

### 4 **limit and the GLP issue, what's our mobility** 

### 5 **there. I mean those are the main issues as I** 

### 6 **see them. So we'll try to get those to you as** 

### 7 **soon as we can obviously.** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: Particularly on the --** 

### 9 **those two particularly because that definitely** 

### 10 **affects how the test standards are written.** 

### 11 **Also what we have -- if I'm trying** 

### 12 **to move forward with an RFP I really need to** 

### 13 **be able to specify to these companies what the** 

### 14 **expectation is going to be.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes. Okay. I** 

### 16 **mean obviously we'll be working on this.** 

### 17 **MR. TOBIAS: Did you want to go** 

### 18 **through another?** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes. Which one --** 

### 20 **we've got a few minutes here on your time,** 

### 21 **right? So which one do you want to?** 

### 22 **MR. TOBIAS: I don't know, Cathy.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 Did you have one you wanted to look at in**  

### 2 **particular? Or anyone else? Cathy had a set** 

### 3 **of comments I'm trying to --** 

### 4 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes, sure. We** 

### 5 **can go -- do you guys want to lead that** 

### 6 **discussion?** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, we can work** 

### 8 **through it and try to figure out where we --** 

### 9 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. DOYLE: I'm sorry, which one?** 

### 11 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Influent/** 

### 12 **effluent. So, the sampling location, and it** 

### 13 **may be comparable to the discussion that we** 

### 14 **just had where that would be defined in the** 

### 15 **permit. If so, we would like more information** 

### 16 **on that. If it's not defined then a high** 

### 17 **level summary.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Do the permits** 

### 19 **actually specify the influent sampling as** 

### 20 **well? Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. MAIT: It should. It's** 

### 22 **probably an XY definition exactly where it is.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.**  

### 2 **MS. SMITH: If I could just make** 

### 3 **one slight comment. That's probably true for** 

### 4 **POTWs but not necessarily for the industry.** 

### 5 **MR. MAIT: Your effluent** 

### 6 **definitely is.** 

### 7 **MS. SMITH: Effluent, absolutely** 

### 8 **is. But the question was with regard to** 

### 9 **influent, right?** 

### 10 **MR. MAIT: On the POTWs. We're** 

### 11 **not doing influent on the -- you're right. We** 

### 12 **already got through that, didn't we?** 

### 13 **(Laughter.)** 

### 14 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: On this one,** 

### 15 **and I don't know if this language is in the** 

### 16 **others but I noted it's in the middle of the** 

### 17 **paragraph on the special considerations that** 

### 18 **you say appropriate quality control measures** 

### 19 **should be implemented to the extent possible.** 

### 20 **And I'm wondering are there specific** 

### 21 **requirements that you believe will not be** 

### 22 **implemented for this?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: This is one of those**  

### 2 **practical things where we know there's only so** 

### 3 **much we can control. It's kind of getting** 

### 4 **onsite, who's there and what they can do in** 

### 5 **reality. So we've kind of listed what the --** 

### 6 **we should be doing, like the people who are** 

### 7 **going to be in that vicinity, that area,** 

### 8 **should they be wearing certain things, you** 

### 9 **know, product sampling. But we also realize** 

### 10 **this is a business of operation and it's going** 

### 11 **to be challenging. So we're just trying to** 

### 12 **build in some practicality here. We will** 

### 13 **provide those things, those shared dues.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Now, that's all** 

### 15 **detail. The sampling necessary. Now this,** 

### 16 **there is -- on the effluent though this would** 

### 17 **apply to the direct discharge sites, right?** 

### 18 **That's not how this is written. It's all** 

### 19 **about POTWs, right? Do you follow what I'm** 

### 20 **saying?** 

### 21 **MR. DOYLE: We do parenthetically** 

### 22 **note here that it could be imputed to the --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 you're right. Yes, but you're right. As**  

### 2 **applicable in terms of the effluent samples.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: All right. Let me** 

### 4 **double-check that language just to make sure.** 

### 5 **Okay.** 

### 6 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: So we'll need** 

### 7 **to have more discussion about that. We've** 

### 8 **already discussed the special considerations.** 

### 9 **We discussed the fact that two samples we** 

### 10 **believe is not sufficient.** 

### 11 **There are references here where** 

### 12 **again we'd like you to pull a more high-level** 

### 13 **summary information into the test standard and** 

### 14 **then refer to specific sections.** 

### 15 **MR. STAPLES: Well, again, we're** 

### 16 **not going to be able to give much specifics of** 

### 17 **how exactly the samples get collected until we** 

### 18 **get to the site and the contractor decides how** 

### 19 **the samples will -- exactly what apparatus and** 

### 20 **equipment and how it's cleaned ahead of time** 

### 21 **and all that. This is to be determined. And** 

### 22 **what we set out in the site-specific sampling**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 plan is part of the study plan, not here.**  

### 2 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: I understand** 

### 3 **the details will be in the site-specific** 

### 4 **sampling plan, but we would like as much as** 

### 5 **possible for these to be stand-alone documents** 

### 6 **that include high-level summary information.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: So, I mean here** 

### 8 **you've got three separate references. And so,** 

### 9 **you know, we don't know what we're agreeing to** 

### 10 **at this level.** 

### 11 **MR. STAPLES: Each of these** 

### 12 **references in the sections and pages that are** 

### 13 **referenced there give some guidance on how to** 

### 14 **take samples of influents and effluents.** 

### 15 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. So --** 

### 16 **MR. STAPLES: And the exact plan** 

### 17 **for collecting influents and effluents at each** 

### 18 **of the 10 or 14 facilities may be worked out** 

### 19 **in the site-specific plan.** 

### 20 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. STAPLES: We can't go into any** 

### 22 **more detail than that at this point.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 MR. DOYLE: No. Are what you**  

### 2 **saying, Cathy would like us, for each one of** 

### 3 **these references and pages that we've cited in** 

### 4 **there to extract from that and do like an** 

### 5 **executive summary of what those pages say and** 

### 6 **then put that in this document?** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: No, what I'm** 

### 8 **saying is if there are four types of sampling** 

### 9 **apparatus that are usually used for collecting** 

### 10 **these sorts of samples then I would like you** 

### 11 **to include a high-level summary in this** 

### 12 **document so that we know that you are going to** 

### 13 **be looking at those four types of sampling** 

### 14 **apparatus and you'll be applying them in** 

### 15 **accordance with the reference that you've** 

### 16 **identified. It's --** 

### 17 **MR. THOMAS: We can do that. We** 

### 18 **can do that.** 

### 19 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes, thank you.** 

### 20 **That would be very helpful.** 

### 21 **MR. FLACK: In other words it's** 

### 22 **just --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 MR. MAIT: Right.**  

### 2 **MR. FLACK: But how do they know** 

### 3 **that --** 

### 4 **MR. MAIT: But back to --** 

### 5 **MR. FLACK: -- which one was** 

### 6 **ludicrous --** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: Right, understood. But** 

### 8 **back to Trent's point. The specificity about** 

### 9 **those devices, some do come out of these** 

### 10 **references. So if, rather than rewrite the** 

### 11 **reference if we could take the salient piece** 

### 12 **and insert it in here and give that to you.** 

### 13 **Rather than -- I don't want to rewrite** 

### 14 **somebody else's document.** 

### 15 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: I'm not asking** 

### 16 **you to --** 

### 17 **MR. MAIT: Okay.** 

### 18 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: -- rewrite the** 

### 19 **reference. What I'm asking for is a high** 

### 20 **level summary, the salient piece as you --** 

### 21 **MR. MAIT: Right.** 

### 22 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 MR. MAIT: Okay. But if I pull**  

### 2 **that in and then say and this is what I mean** 

### 3 **and here's the reference specifically, rather** 

### 4 **than asking you to go look in that annex,** 

### 5 **would that satisfy?** 

### 6 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: Okay. Fair enough.** 

### 8 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes. That's** 

### 9 **all we're asking.** 

### 10 **MR. MAIT: I've got it.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: So I'm** 

### 12 **understanding, what is the agreement?** 

### 13 **MR. MAIT: I've got it. Cathy,** 

### 14 **could you go back just for a moment? You** 

### 15 **mentioned something about the sampling and the** 

### 16 **number of samples here. Could you elaborate** 

### 17 **a little more? Because this is a little bit** 

### 18 **different than surface water. This is** 

### 19 **influent/effluent sampling.** 

### 20 **So you have a continuous flow of** 

### 21 **material coming in and you have a continuous** 

### 22 **flow going out. So could you explain your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 expectation of when you said we didn't have**  

### 2 **enough samples here as to what you really** 

### 3 **meant?** 

### 4 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Do you want to?** 

### 5 **MR. NGUYEN: I think this is the** 

### 6 **same issue that we talked about in the other** 

### 7 **standard. In addition to having more** 

### 8 **confidence in the data we would also look at** 

### 9 **the process better. If you look at this, we** 

### 10 **have process variability in any process. In** 

### 11 **either continuous or batch. And if you just** 

### 12 **take one or two samples that's just the** 

### 13 **measurement for that specific time, point in** 

### 14 **time.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: So the way we left** 

### 16 **this last time, we said we definitely need** 

### 17 **more replicates to confirm the result.** 

### 18 **MR. MAIT: I understand the** 

### 19 **replicate part.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: And we need to get** 

### 21 **back to you on --** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 MR. PENBERTHY: -- the variability**  

### 2 **issue.** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: And that's what I'm** 

### 4 **trying to get at. Because my understanding is** 

### 5 **this is a 24-hour --** 

### 6 **MR. STAPLES: No. With lots of** 

### 7 **reflection on what's possible with this** 

### 8 **material we went to grab samples rather than** 

### 9 **trying to composite samples. So that's why --** 

### 10 **grab samples.** 

### 11 **But let's back up a step. The** 

### 12 **purpose of this ECA according to the text is** 

### 13 **to be able to understand exposure and risk to** 

### 14 **sediment-acquired organisms.** 

### 15 **So in our view this is not the** 

### 16 **study to get at treatment efficiencies and** 

### 17 **treatment variability within the treatment** 

### 18 **plans and so forth. It is to demonstrate the** 

### 19 **occurrence of D4 in the influent and effluent** 

### 20 **of the facilities on the day that we sample** 

### 21 **them. And not to get at treatment** 

### 22 **efficiencies and treatment variability and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 variations within influents and effluents.**  

### 2 **Document the occurrence of D4 on the day we** 

### 3 **sampled to get the daily sample of the surface** 

### 4 **water.** 

### 5 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: But I think** 

### 6 **that we're looking at an exposure and risk** 

### 7 **assessment that would address POTWs and** 

### 8 **manufacturing processing and formulating sites** 

### 9 **in the U.S.** 

### 10 **MR. STAPLES: So that exposure and** 

### 11 **risk of sediment-acquired organisms can be** 

### 12 **assessed on both.** 

### 13 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes. In other** 

### 14 **words, our assessment goes beyond what** 

### 15 **happened the day that you were sampling at** 

### 16 **that one facility. It's intended to address** 

### 17 **the U.S.** 

### 18 **MR. THOMAS: But for that** 

### 19 **particular facility though you're just talking** 

### 20 **about the environmental exposure. So if** 

### 21 **you're talking about a continuous flow the** 

### 22 **process variability of that flow is less**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 important to the overall consequence to the**  

### 2 **environment, right? That's especially true in** 

### 3 **this case where you're talking about a** 

### 4 **continuous process.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: And I think to the** 

### 6 **point of the risk assessment, so let's just** 

### 7 **get to the risk assessment which is your** 

### 8 **ultimate goal. And it's product in sediment** 

### 9 **organisms, right?** 

### 10 **So in the sediment you're not** 

### 11 **going to have some of the same challenges that** 

### 12 **you have with detection limits in the water,** 

### 13 **but that's fine. We're going to, you know,** 

### 14 **we're going to basically be able to do the** 

### 15 **best you can to do a water analysis and look** 

### 16 **at those concentrations.** 

### 17 **The reality is it's going to be** 

### 18 **non-detectable. So that's going to affect you** 

### 19 **when you do your risk assessment.** 

### 20 **The next priority is probably the** 

### 21 **top priority of sediment and that's where** 

### 22 **you're going to have the less of these kind of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 issues around the time dependence component of**  

### 2 **it. Because you're going to be able to see** 

### 3 **the concentrations that have been built up** 

### 4 **over time. And that's really what you're** 

### 5 **going to factor in the risk assessment.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: And I think part** 

### 7 **of this is -- these operations don't** 

### 8 **necessarily run in a steady state when it** 

### 9 **comes to D4 going through them and coming out** 

### 10 **of them. So that's -- we talked about** 

### 11 **variability, that we have to convey exactly** 

### 12 **what our objective is there.** 

### 13 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes. But that** 

### 14 **variability is related to the operation of it** 

### 15 **which is not something we're trying to** 

### 16 **address. What we're trying to address is** 

### 17 **what's that continuous exposure to the** 

### 18 **organisms you're concerned about.** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. We might** 

### 20 **actually have interest in restraining at least** 

### 21 **the variability from that source.** 

### 22 **MR. DOYLE: We just need to get**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 this feedback.**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right --** 

### 4 **MR. DOYLE: -- objectives.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: -- inform the risk** 

### 6 **assessment.** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: Independent of all of** 

### 8 **that it's difficult for us to structure a** 

### 9 **sampling plan if I don't understand what I'm** 

### 10 **trying to hit at. I understand you're going** 

### 11 **to get it back to me but I need to know that** 

### 12 **soon so we can craft.** 

### 13 **Because obviously we've had long,** 

### 14 **internal debates as to whether we take a 24-** 

### 15 **hour composite sample which I was told don't,** 

### 16 **you can't because of the volatility issues.** 

### 17 **Then you have to take a continuous grab sample** 

### 18 **over a period of time. That will give you** 

### 19 **variability over a 24-hour period. You will** 

### 20 **take a grab sample at X and take a grab sample** 

### 21 **at Y and so on. That gives you variability.** 

### 22 **Right?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: But again, but that**  

### 2 **won't inform risk assessment.** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: I'm just --** 

### 4 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, you can debate** 

### 5 **these but the point --** 

### 6 **MR. MAIT: I just need to get** 

### 7 **direction. I need -- for where we are right** 

### 8 **now, in order to write a test standard I need** 

### 9 **direction as to what I'm trying to hit. And** 

### 10 **right now it's unclear.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Fair** 

### 12 **enough.** 

### 13 **MR. MAIT: I completely understand** 

### 14 **the risk assessment.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: If we were to** 

### 16 **follow your logic to its final conclusion why** 

### 17 **would be sampling effluent at all, you know.** 

### 18 **It would just be going straight to the** 

### 19 **sediment.** 

### 20 **MS. PLOTZKE: But I think, but** 

### 21 **that's gets back to what Charles said is you** 

### 22 **want, I'm assuming, you want some assurance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 that there is actually release of this**  

### 2 **material coming out of those wastewater** 

### 3 **treatment plants. So that we're studying --** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: But it doesn't** 

### 5 **come out at concentrations all the time. And** 

### 6 **we know that there can be variability within** 

### 7 **that. So we have to understand what are our** 

### 8 **objectives. And we'll have to get back to you** 

### 9 **on this about how important it is for our** 

### 10 **assessment to understand what is -- are those** 

### 11 **systems running at steady state or not. And** 

### 12 **then --** 

### 13 **MS. PLOTZKE: And will it really** 

### 14 **affect the risk assessment. I think when you** 

### 15 **think about the sediment concentrations you** 

### 16 **might have a spike in the pour coming out in** 

### 17 **the morning, or the evening, or whatever it** 

### 18 **is, the period is. But is it really going to** 

### 19 **impact that continuous exposure and that** 

### 20 **exposure in the sediment compartments of those** 

### 21 **organisms? That's what I think the** 

### 22 **fundamental --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 MR. MAIT: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. STAPLES: And again, you've** 

### 3 **got to use the word "occurrence" not** 

### 4 **"concentration." So to show the occurrence of** 

### 5 **D4 in the influent and effluent is a useful** 

### 6 **piece of a risk assessment because that's** 

### 7 **where the material is coming from that gets** 

### 8 **into the surface water and sediments.** 

### 9 **MR. MAIT: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: We're just going** 

### 11 **to have to get back to you on that. I think** 

### 12 **we have to formulate our opinion in more** 

### 13 **detail.** 

### 14 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. So on** 

### 15 **the bottom of page 2, more of the same. If** 

### 16 **you could include some of the salient points** 

### 17 **from the references.** 

### 18 **And then on the next page, top of** 

### 19 **page 3 we're not sure if this is in the** 

### 20 **surface water but you talk about the field** 

### 21 **blanks having very low or non-detectable** 

### 22 **concentrations. And do you have an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 understanding, a better understanding of what**  

### 2 **you mean by very low?** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: Well, I believe that --** 

### 4 **and maybe the panel of chemists, Dr. McNett** 

### 5 **can respond to this. But laboratory-grade** 

### 6 **water can have some. So it's intended to be** 

### 7 **a standard practice of using laboratory-grade** 

### 8 **water. It may have a measurable background in** 

### 9 **it. We don't know.** 

### 10 **MS. PLOTZKE: Particularly how** 

### 11 **they process their water, store their water,** 

### 12 **you know, depending on any systems they have** 

### 13 **in place. So again we're trying to say we** 

### 14 **need to ensure that we're not taking your** 

### 15 **laboratory water that may already be** 

### 16 **contaminated from something that's coming** 

### 17 **through the system.** 

### 18 **MS. PLOTZKE: So, is there like an** 

### 19 **SOP that you have in your labs where you would** 

### 20 **analyze the laboratory water and if it's above** 

### 21 **a certain concentration then it's okay -- it's** 

### 22 **not okay, if it's below then it is okay?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: Yes. Debbie, if you**  

### 2 **want to answer that? Did you hear the** 

### 3 **question?** 

### 4 **DR. MCNETT: I was having a hard** 

### 5 **time hearing Cathy Fehrenbacher. I believe** 

### 6 **the question is around the -- is it around the** 

### 7 **trip and blank samples?** 

### 8 **MS. PLOTZKE: It's specifically --** 

### 9 **can you hear me, Debbie?** 

### 10 **DR. MCNETT: Yes, I can hear you.** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: Okay. So it's** 

### 12 **specifically -- we have an SOP in place to how** 

### 13 **do we establish the laboratory-grade water** 

### 14 **that we're going to use as a blank, that it** 

### 15 **has low or non-detectable levels. How do we** 

### 16 **establish that?** 

### 17 **DR. MCNETT: Those are done. Yes,** 

### 18 **and it is within our SOP for the levels that** 

### 19 **we run. We run procedures with laboratory** 

### 20 **grade water and assess to make sure that the** 

### 21 **levels in that water is all at a certain** 

### 22 **level. Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. So if**  

### 2 **you could just better define what you mean** 

### 3 **there.** 

### 4 **More of the same comments under** 

### 5 **collection of the effluent samples on the** 

### 6 **analysis of two samples. And then including** 

### 7 **more information on the salient points.** 

### 8 **Again, the practical quantitation limit, I** 

### 9 **think we've already had that discussion as** 

### 10 **well. And then the GLP, we've had that** 

### 11 **discussion.** 

### 12 **You should probably -- where you** 

### 13 **refer to the EPA guidance you should probably** 

### 14 **include the citation for that, the reference,** 

### 15 **in all of these.** 

### 16 **MR. STAPLES: There's a reference** 

### 17 **list at the end of each standard.** 

### 18 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: I didn't see** 

### 19 **the USEPA grab reference there.** 

### 20 **MR. STAPLES: That's correct, it's** 

### 21 **not there.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: We'll get -- the ECA**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 document so yes, we can put it there again**  

### 2 **too.** 

### 3 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. And did** 

### 4 **you have other comments that you wanted to?** 

### 5 **Anything else?** 

### 6 **MR. LEWIS: One comment that we** 

### 7 **addressed before, and this is both in the** 

### 8 **collection of influent samples and effluent** 

### 9 **samples. Greater description in terms of** 

### 10 **normal operation conditions, in terms of what** 

### 11 **you mean by that. We had discussion, normal** 

### 12 **operations, is it 9 to 5 and these plants are** 

### 13 **operated 24 hours a day, so how would you want** 

### 14 **to characterize? What do you mean by normal** 

### 15 **operation and conditions?** 

### 16 **MR. STAPLES: That's your term.** 

### 17 **That's straight out of the ECA. It says** 

### 18 **during normal operations and not when high** 

### 19 **rainfall events, wait a day for the rainfall** 

### 20 **events. There's some terminology like that.** 

### 21 **So normal operations is subjective but it** 

### 22 **would be on the not subject to upsets in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 plan or whatever else is specified here about**  

### 2 **rainy days and that sort of thing.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: You know, on page** 

### 4 **3, second-to-last paragraph there's a** 

### 5 **reference to composite samples. And then** 

### 6 **above that you talk about grab samples.** 

### 7 **MR. STAPLES: If it says composite** 

### 8 **-- it does say composite. I believe that's an** 

### 9 **accident of error. It should say the sample,** 

### 10 **not composite.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Gotcha. Okay, so** 

### 12 **I just wanted to be clear that we're not** 

### 13 **compositing samples.** 

### 14 **Okay. Do you want to switch gears** 

### 15 **a little bit and do biota? Again, I guess** 

### 16 **we're going to have to give you some feedback** 

### 17 **on the variability on the sample numbers, the** 

### 18 **requirement for detection limits as we see** 

### 19 **them. I think -- what else? And similar** 

### 20 **stuff. As before. We have to look at the TOC** 

### 21 **method.** 

### 22 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 MR. PENBERTHY: So, biota?**  

### 2 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Do you want to** 

### 3 **lead that discussion, Karen, or would you like** 

### 4 **me to?** 

### 5 **MS. EISENREICH: Why don't you** 

### 6 **just continue because a lot of it's the same.** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 8 **MS. EISENREICH: We'll jump in.** 

### 9 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: All right. So,** 

### 10 **the deposition zone, is that one of those** 

### 11 **zones that is defined, or?** 

### 12 **MR. STAPLES: With regards to the** 

### 13 **biota sampling for benthic organisms we would** 

### 14 **be collecting these samples at the same** 

### 15 **locations that we would collect the sediment.** 

### 16 **And that would be at the deposition zone** 

### 17 **closest to the location where the surface** 

### 18 **water samples would be taken.** 

### 19 **We cannot guarantee that there** 

### 20 **will be mud at the bottom of the end of the** 

### 21 **mixing zone but it would be the closest** 

### 22 **deposition zone to it as sufficient sediment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 that we can collect for sediment and benthic.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: So the surface** 

### 3 **water, the sediment and the benthic organisms** 

### 4 **would be roughly in the same.** 

### 5 **MR. STAPLES: And the fish.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: And the fish.** 

### 7 **Does that make sense?** 

### 8 **MS. EISENREICH: How are you** 

### 9 **determining -- are you -- how are you going to** 

### 10 **determine whether there's sediment there to** 

### 11 **sample? I mean, are you just going to -- is** 

### 12 **it a visual detection type situation at the** 

### 13 **mixing zone? Is that how that deposition zone** 

### 14 **is being determined?** 

### 15 **MR. STAPLES: I prefer the bigger** 

### 16 **word being field reconnaissance.** 

### 17 **MS. EISENREICH: And what are you** 

### 18 **considering sediment? I mean, I'm assuming** 

### 19 **you're considering not just mud but sand or** 

### 20 **silt. I know that obviously populations of** 

### 21 **invertebrates changes based on the type of** 

### 22 **sediment that's there, but you had referred to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 mud. So I just want to make sure that if**  

### 2 **there's like sand there you would --** 

### 3 **MR. STAPLES: Oh yes.** 

### 4 **MS. EISENREICH: -- sample that as** 

### 5 **well.** 

### 6 **MR. STAPLES: Yes. Sediment.** 

### 7 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes. Any kind** 

### 8 **of.** 

### 9 **MR. STAPLES: Our suggestion is** 

### 10 **that it be the zone of deposition. So not** 

### 11 **rocks and gravel, but where stuff settles out** 

### 12 **of the water. That's how the D4 would get to** 

### 13 **the sediment anyway is through particulates** 

### 14 **that come out of the effluent and settle on** 

### 15 **the bottom. So we're looking for these** 

### 16 **deposition areas. In some cases it might be** 

### 17 **more near the shoreline. It might be in a** 

### 18 **different location. Again, it's field** 

### 19 **reconnaissance to find it.** 

### 20 **MS. EISENREICH: But as closest to** 

### 21 **the mixing zone as possible?** 

### 22 **MR. STAPLES: Correct. Because**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 you want exposure to D4 from the effluent.**  

### 2 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, correct. I** 

### 3 **think that needs to be a little bit clearer in** 

### 4 **how -- what that deposition zone. I mean not** 

### 5 **what it is because we know what it is, but how** 

### 6 **you're determining where it is.** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes, again at a** 

### 8 **high level.** 

### 9 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, exactly.** 

### 10 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Salient points.** 

### 11 **MS. EISENREICH: We understand** 

### 12 **that until you're there you don't know what's** 

### 13 **there.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: So I guess, is** 

### 15 **this written as -- we were talking about how** 

### 16 **water through sediment and we're basically in** 

### 17 **the same rough location. But it seems to me** 

### 18 **that there could be a circumstance where the** 

### 19 **sediment and the benthic organisms are at a** 

### 20 **different location than the water.** 

### 21 **MS. EISENREICH: I think this is** 

### 22 **kind of what we were talking about. If it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 happens to be a sandy, silt area you're going**  

### 2 **to find probably not so many sediment** 

### 3 **organisms. So they're not going to have a** 

### 4 **high enough number to actually quantify. So** 

### 5 **you have to go to a place where there's** 

### 6 **actually going to be organisms.** 

### 7 **And they would -- I'm assuming** 

### 8 **that I'm correct, that you would sample the** 

### 9 **sediment wherever you're taking the** 

### 10 **invertebrates from. So that there's sediment** 

### 11 **and invertebrates from the same site.** 

### 12 **MR. STAPLES: That seems to me the** 

### 13 **most common consensus.** 

### 14 **MS. EISENREICH: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: Does this have to** 

### 16 **have some language about the mixing zone in** 

### 17 **it? And then --** 

### 18 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, I think** 

### 19 **that's --** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: -- deposition?** 

### 21 **MS. EISENREICH: That's what I was** 

### 22 **asking for, a little bit of clarification.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: -- criteria. So**  

### 2 **it's, like Charles says, it's field** 

### 3 **reconnaissance. So you're going to be** 

### 4 **looking. And there's certain criteria you're** 

### 5 **going to use to go we're in the right spot.** 

### 6 **MS. EISENREICH: So what happens,** 

### 7 **you know, if you're in -- close to the mixing** 

### 8 **zone and you take a grab sample, or the** 

### 9 **sediment and you get a few invertebrates, but** 

### 10 **not enough to meet analysis? Would you** 

### 11 **continue to take grab samples around that area** 

### 12 **until you come up with enough biomass for** 

### 13 **quantification?** 

### 14 **Or is this -- because kind of how** 

### 15 **I read it is then you would -- if you didn't** 

### 16 **have enough you would go down, further** 

### 17 **downstream --** 

### 18 **MS. PLOTZKE: Right.** 

### 19 **MS. EISENREICH: -- and then take** 

### 20 **some from there. And that could get a little** 

### 21 **troublesome because you're potentially** 

### 22 **compositing organisms that are from very**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 different, potentially very different**  

### 2 **exposures. And so you're kind of muting out** 

### 3 **that original site, or even the other site** 

### 4 **potentially.** 

### 5 **So I was wondering if you got** 

### 6 **some, whatever that some is, would you just** 

### 7 **continuously sample until you came up with** 

### 8 **enough biomass to quantify?** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: I mean, what does** 

### 10 **insufficient mean here.** 

### 11 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes.** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Is that obvious or** 

### 13 **not?** 

### 14 **MR. STAPLES: That is a sufficient** 

### 15 **number of samples of biomass would be -- set** 

### 16 **would be analytical method. When the** 

### 17 **analytical chemists and the analytical method** 

### 18 **is validated we will end up with a -- we need** 

### 19 **this amount of mass so we can extract the** 

### 20 **sample and measure D4. So we want to make** 

### 21 **sure we have much more than that. And that's** 

### 22 **exactly the practice you said --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 MR. PENBERTHY: So the test plan**  

### 2 **would say something like go to a spot where** 

### 3 **you can get so many grams of --** 

### 4 **MR. STAPLES: Ten grams or** 

### 5 **whatever it is, something like that. I don't** 

### 6 **know what the numbers are but that's the** 

### 7 **practice we have done with the other types of** 

### 8 **studies that we have done.** 

### 9 **MS. EISENREICH: I guess my** 

### 10 **question is let's say, just hypothetically say** 

### 11 **you need 3 grams for quantification. And so** 

### 12 **you're at one site and you, with one grab or** 

### 13 **two samples you could get 1 gram. Are you** 

### 14 **going to continuously sample at that site** 

### 15 **until you make it up to the 3 grams? Or --** 

### 16 **MR. STAPLES: Yes.** 

### 17 **MS. EISENREICH: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. STAPLES: Right. So, a couple** 

### 19 **of things there. First of all, the mixing** 

### 20 **zone discussion is in this standard with the** 

### 21 **location of deciding where to collect fish.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 MR. STAPLES: It is at that point**  

### 2 **then you would start looking for the nearest** 

### 3 **deposition zone from that point downstream.** 

### 4 **Once we find -- and it does say in here now** 

### 5 **that the sediment, the specific sampling** 

### 6 **location must be within a deposition zone of** 

### 7 **sufficient area to collect both sediment and** 

### 8 **benthic samples.** 

### 9 **So we would collect using whatever** 

### 10 **device it is, we would collect samples for** 

### 11 **analysis of D4 and for bio -- the benthic** 

### 12 **organisms at the same location. And we'll** 

### 13 **keep sampling till we get sufficient biomass.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Now, is it common** 

### 15 **for the deposition zones to be established in** 

### 16 **a similar fashion as the --** 

### 17 **MR. MAIT: It depends. It depends** 

### 18 **on the operator. Because if they've never** 

### 19 **been asked to do this kind of work under a** 

### 20 **water program they may not actually know.** 

### 21 **This is not something a POTW typically does** 

### 22 **themselves going out. The mixing zone is well**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 defined. They do effluent sampling.**  

### 2 **But the idea of in-stream sampling** 

### 3 **would have to be driven by some other program** 

### 4 **by the state or by the EPA to get that done.** 

### 5 **That's been my experience. So it may be well** 

### 6 **defined. It may be speculated or it may be** 

### 7 **unknown. It just depends.** 

### 8 **MS. PLOTZKE: And again, so I** 

### 9 **think that's why in this case we put the field** 

### 10 **reconnaissance because the mixing zone would** 

### 11 **be the starting point. And even if there's** 

### 12 **some definition around it it still is going to** 

### 13 **be very dependent on that field** 

### 14 **reconnaissance.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: Right. And the other** 

### 16 **thing is they may have done it 5 years ago and** 

### 17 **you've had hurricanes and floods and other** 

### 18 **things and as you well know that changes** 

### 19 **everything, particularly in these shallow** 

### 20 **areas.** 

### 21 **MS. EISENREICH: Do you have** 

### 22 **caught up on potentially how far downstream is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 acceptable for sampling? I mean, if you end**  

### 2 **up in a situation where it's -- I'll just** 

### 3 **choose a large number, you know, rather far** 

### 4 **downstream, that may not be as representative** 

### 5 **for -- it might not be the best site to choose** 

### 6 **in general for sampling then. So I could see** 

### 7 **a potential conflict of what we need for** 

### 8 **sediments and invertebrate sampling compared** 

### 9 **to like the influent/effluent.** 

### 10 **So you might have a site -- I** 

### 11 **guess I'm not very clear, but you might have** 

### 12 **a site that's great for influent/effluent and** 

### 13 **surface water sampling but might be terrible** 

### 14 **for the sediment and invertebrate sampling if** 

### 15 **you end up really far downstream.** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: I mean, I guess the** 

### 17 **point is we'd start at the mixing zone. So,** 

### 18 **you're right, you don't know how far you're** 

### 19 **going to end up having to go. But** 

### 20 **realistically you should be able to get to** 

### 21 **that point where you'll have sufficient** 

### 22 **sediment. I can't tell you --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 MS. EISENREICH: Right.**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: -- or not.** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: But what you're looking** 

### 4 **for it sounds like is that is there some sort** 

### 5 **of cutoff where when you get beyond a certain** 

### 6 **distance that bags the whole set.** 

### 7 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, exactly. I** 

### 8 **guess that's the --** 

### 9 **MR. STAPLES: I guess we have an** 

### 10 **example of really a facility that addresses** 

### 11 **that with the Lake Pepin work. Lake Pepin is** 

### 12 **a depositional area, and this is upper** 

### 13 **Mississippi River that receives wastewater** 

### 14 **from the St. Paul-Minneapolis treatment** 

### 15 **plants. We find B4, -5 and -6 in those** 

### 16 **sediments. So I believe that's 50 or 100** 

### 17 **miles downstream. So we'll cut it off at 50** 

### 18 **or 100 miles.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: We're going to need a** 

### 20 **bigger boat, Charles.** 

### 21 **MR. STAPLES: I'm not sure that** 

### 22 **that's really a concern because it makes it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 downstream. We have no interest --**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, at what** 

### 3 **point does it become just not meaningful. Is** 

### 4 **that the issue?** 

### 5 **MS. EISENREICH: Fifty to one** 

### 6 **hundred miles downstream you have a lot of** 

### 7 **processes that are in the works that makes it** 

### 8 **-- makes analysis very difficult when looking** 

### 9 **at what's in those --** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: It's hard to** 

### 11 **attribute it to that --** 

### 12 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, exactly.** 

### 13 **MR. THOMAS: Would you have a** 

### 14 **recommendation with respect to how far would** 

### 15 **be too far?** 

### 16 **MS. EISENREICH: I don't at this** 

### 17 **time. I mean this is something that we have** 

### 18 **to discuss. I was just -- I'm trying to get** 

### 19 **a handle on kind of your specific criteria** 

### 20 **that you've thought about in this description.** 

### 21 **MR. STAPLES: Yes, I really -- we** 

### 22 **don't have a sense and won't until we get in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 the field. I will say though that in the**  

### 2 **field your selection process, we have targeted** 

### 3 **very low flow -- low dilution systems. And** 

### 4 **there are photographs in that report that look** 

### 5 **at it. And my chances at most of these would** 

### 6 **be very small receiving streams. And then** 

### 7 **within a short period of time --** 

### 8 **MS. EISENREICH: We're not talking** 

### 9 **the Mississippi River.** 

### 10 **MR. STAPLES: -- they go into a** 

### 11 **much bigger stream, and then a much bigger** 

### 12 **stream.** 

### 13 **MS. EISENREICH: Right.** 

### 14 **MR. STAPLES: So I'm hoping that** 

### 15 **that will become a moot issue but those are** 

### 16 **the types of facilities we're -- those are the** 

### 17 **receiving waters we've had so far.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: How would you** 

### 19 **normally do this? Would it be a multiple --** 

### 20 **the length of the mixing zone or something?** 

### 21 **MS. EISENREICH: I don't -- that's** 

### 22 **what we -- I mean, you know, we're crossing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 expertise here since we just got these**  

### 2 **documents not that long ago. We have to talk** 

### 3 **with everybody in our group. So I'm coming at** 

### 4 **it from the biology standpoint but I have to** 

### 5 **talk to the physical experts to understand** 

### 6 **stream flowing things and things like that.** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes. But I** 

### 8 **think again from our perspective we've had a** 

### 9 **lot of really good discussion. It would be** 

### 10 **helpful to have some of those salient points** 

### 11 **brought out in here. And then we can perhaps** 

### 12 **both go back and talk to our experts about the** 

### 13 **issue of how far downstream would we want to** 

### 14 **go.** 

### 15 **MS. EISENREICH: And it will take** 

### 16 **us to look at the proposed sites, to the list** 

### 17 **of sites that were suggested as well and** 

### 18 **getting to that in depth as well which we just** 

### 19 **haven't had the chance to talk across our** 

### 20 **expertise .** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. I think the** 

### 22 **next thing -- are we past benthic organisms?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 MS. EISENREICH: You know, there's**  

### 2 **the sample size, the replicates again. We** 

### 3 **would like more than two replicates.** 

### 4 **I did have a question about your** 

### 5 **potentially identifying the species that are** 

### 6 **being collected at the highest species level.** 

### 7 **It's been done in some of the other studies,** 

### 8 **just saying whether the chironomid midges --** 

### 9 **what's going into the composite so we have an** 

### 10 **idea of what critters were collected and put** 

### 11 **as part of the composite.** 

### 12 **MR. STAPLES: So, something more** 

### 13 **than subject matter? I mean we don't have any** 

### 14 **idea what that's going to be.** 

### 15 **MS. EISENREICH: So it wasn't the** 

### 16 **plan to identify at any level what is going** 

### 17 **into the composite?** 

### 18 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: It will be once** 

### 19 **we understand the site and --** 

### 20 **MS. EISENREICH: Right, once we** 

### 21 **understand --** 

### 22 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Yes. Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 MS. EISENREICH: Could you maybe**  

### 2 **put that in here that you will be identifying** 

### 3 **what's going into the composite?** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: So basically what** 

### 5 **are the species that make up the composite to** 

### 6 **the extent they're known?** 

### 7 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes. Yes, I mean** 

### 8 **that's essentially where it would be** 

### 9 **documented would be in the field. But** 

### 10 **typically when you sieve out sediment, you** 

### 11 **know, you're pulling out the invertebrates and** 

### 12 **speciating them.** 

### 13 **MR. STAPLES: Well, that's not** 

### 14 **something we've done before in the other** 

### 15 **studies. It's been done on macroinvertebrates** 

### 16 **as a group. I mean, I think that there is** 

### 17 **some -- like the level that you just spoke of** 

### 18 **there's some crustaceans and there's some** 

### 19 **annelids and there's some midges, but --** 

### 20 **MS. EISENREICH: That would be** 

### 21 **important. I think that's important to** 

### 22 **understand, like what level. Because these**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 organisms are at very different levels and it**  

### 2 **might help explain the concentrations that are** 

### 3 **being seen compared to other studies that have** 

### 4 **been done and when they say their makeup was** 

### 5 **mostly annelids. You know, there's** 

### 6 **differences in the biology that could** 

### 7 **potentially change concentrations just based** 

### 8 **on feeding habits.** 

### 9 **MR. STAPLES: Well, we can make** 

### 10 **some general qualitative assessment of what's** 

### 11 **in the samples.** 

### 12 **MS. EISENREICH: And that's what** 

### 13 **I'm asking for. I'm not saying to say there's** 

### 14 **five chironomids in this sample, there's four** 

### 15 **annelids, just in general what is in there so** 

### 16 **we have an idea of what makes up the** 

### 17 **composite.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: So it's a** 

### 19 **qualitative speciation of the sample.** 

### 20 **MR. STAPLES: I don't know if** 

### 21 **speciation is possible.** 

### 22 **MS. EISENREICH: Well, it's not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 specie, it's to the -- the family, yes.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: All right, do we** 

### 3 **have more here?** 

### 4 **MS. EISENREICH: I think that's --** 

### 5 **Sara, do you have anything else for the** 

### 6 **invertebrates?** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: One thing I had** 

### 8 **about -- I know we're putting the fish and the** 

### 9 **benthic organisms in the one standard. Does** 

### 10 **that make sense? Because there are certain** 

### 11 **different aspects of them. Should they be in** 

### 12 **separate ones? Or does it matter?** 

### 13 **MS. EISENREICH: I'm not sure that** 

### 14 **it matters so much. I mean, I think they're -** 

### 15 **-** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: I mean from a** 

### 17 **processing standpoint it doesn't matter. If** 

### 18 **that's what you're worried about.** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: I'm just -- in my** 

### 20 **organizational mind I just wondered if it just** 

### 21 **makes sense to split them up. I don't have a** 

### 22 **preference per se, it's just I'm asking a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 question.**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: You mean from --** 

### 3 **typically handling biological samples it's** 

### 4 **very similar. So you go from a handling,** 

### 5 **processing, analytical so that's why we put** 

### 6 **them together.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. On the fish** 

### 8 **I did know, though, right up front. We've** 

### 9 **been talking about, you know, we were talking** 

### 10 **about different trophic levels and that hasn't** 

### 11 **been -- I mean that was an issue in the body** 

### 12 **of the ECA but that was unresolved. I mean,** 

### 13 **is that something that can be accommodated?** 

### 14 **MS. PLOTZKE: That would be very** 

### 15 **challenging. I don't know if you -- you guys** 

### 16 **have been working together. But in this kind** 

### 17 **of design it's really not designed and does** 

### 18 **not have the robustness to really address** 

### 19 **that.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: So you're going to** 

### 21 **sample for two species of fish. Say there's** 

### 22 **four there and you can't pick among the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 species to figure out.**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: I mean the real key** 

### 3 **is understanding -- what comes from our** 

### 4 **studies that we have done is specific** 

### 5 **locations, that there are a number of factors** 

### 6 **that will really impact that from an exposure** 

### 7 **standpoint. Concentration gradients. So if** 

### 8 **you're doing a biomagnification, a trophic** 

### 9 **magnification study at a specific site. There** 

### 10 **is a lot more reconnaissance in sampling that** 

### 11 **you do to understand those factors that would** 

### 12 **go into that kind of determination that are** 

### 13 **not built into this program.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: But we're just** 

### 15 **trying to figure out can you sample two** 

### 16 **different kinds of fish at different trophic** 

### 17 **levels and measure them.** 

### 18 **MS. PLOTZKE: Well, I wouldn't** 

### 19 **give you the information like a bio** 

### 20 **modification.** 

### 21 **MS. EISENREICH: We understand** 

### 22 **that this is not a trophic magnification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 study, that it is not designed for that. But**  

### 2 **it would be helpful to -- I mean because for** 

### 3 **fish you have greater a lot biomass if you're** 

### 4 **electroshocking you kind of get everything** 

### 5 **there. Or even if you're seine netting you** 

### 6 **get everything that's there.** 

### 7 **So to the extent possible it would** 

### 8 **be really nice to have the low trophic level** 

### 9 **feeder organism that's feeding off of sediment** 

### 10 **organisms versus the higher trophic level** 

### 11 **fish. Which they will exist in the same --** 

### 12 **exist in the same area, especially if you're** 

### 13 **doing electroshocking or seining you can** 

### 14 **collect multiple different trophic level of** 

### 15 **fish.** 

### 16 **And so if you, like Ward was** 

### 17 **saying, if you collect four species and two** 

### 18 **happen to be low trophic level feeders and two** 

### 19 **happen to be high trophic level feeders you** 

### 20 **could take one of each and that would be two** 

### 21 **different samples. And it just helps give an** 

### 22 **idea of potential variability in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 concentrations in those species.**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: And we do indicate** 

### 3 **two species.** 

### 4 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, you did.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: So the challenge** 

### 6 **will be is you get what you get kind of thing.** 

### 7 **You know, unless you're really designing the** 

### 8 **study for looking for specific species. So,** 

### 9 **you know, if -- you're right, we're going to** 

### 10 **collect them and we're going to make sure we** 

### 11 **have two different species. The challenge** 

### 12 **will be do we have two different species of** 

### 13 **different trophic levels or not.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, given the** 

### 15 **choice obviously we're -- it would be helpful** 

### 16 **if we could get the different trophic levels.** 

### 17 **MR. STAPLES: Then the question** 

### 18 **becomes what do you do with those data that** 

### 19 **are from two different species. And although** 

### 20 **you've made an assurance that you're not going** 

### 21 **to do the biomagnification calculation,** 

### 22 **anybody could with the data.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 The problem with collecting those**  

### 2 **types of samples with a focus on a forager** 

### 3 **fish and a top predator is that we don't know,** 

### 4 **won't know where those fish spent most of** 

### 5 **their time. Was it upstream of the facility?** 

### 6 **Downstream? Way downstream of the facility?** 

### 7 **They just happen to be at our location at the** 

### 8 **moment caught. Now that's the real world** 

### 9 **among fish and so they're going to integrate** 

### 10 **upstream and downstream exposures.** 

### 11 **And what we have found with our** 

### 12 **trophic magnification studies and the reason** 

### 13 **why we do transects across broad areas is to** 

### 14 **understand the variability of these broad** 

### 15 **areas that these species inhabit so that we** 

### 16 **can then understand the cumulative exposure at** 

### 17 **each of the trophic levels. So it is not a** 

### 18 **trivial exercise and we don't think it's part** 

### 19 **of this ECA plan to go after truly usable** 

### 20 **biomagnification data.** 

### 21 **MR. DOYLE: We're just wary of** 

### 22 **generating data that could be misconstrued.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: We have seen other**  

### 2 **people do that with just two species** 

### 3 **difference. And it's really not appropriate** 

### 4 **to do. So even though that's not your intent** 

### 5 **the information will be there and available.** 

### 6 **MS. EISENREICH: Are you going to** 

### 7 **speciate the fish and provide the information** 

### 8 **on what fish were analyzed? Because there's** 

### 9 **also the other side of it where you can self** 

### 10 **select, you know, the algae-eating fish, the** 

### 11 **more herbivorous fish. And that presents** 

### 12 **problems in and of itself too. That's why we** 

### 13 **said two different species, to try and, as** 

### 14 **much as we can try and get around the** 

### 15 **different feeding styles of fish. Because** 

### 16 **they vary from herbivorous fish all the way up** 

### 17 **to carnivorous. And I know there's variation** 

### 18 **in the --** 

### 19 **MS. PLOTZKE: And the species** 

### 20 **will, I mean once we have them we will** 

### 21 **identify what those two species are. And they** 

### 22 **will be -- they're not being composited**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 together. They will be separate.**  

### 2 **MS. EISENREICH: All right. And** 

### 3 **that's actually another issue that I --** 

### 4 **there's two sentences together that kind of** 

### 5 **could be read differently. So just, I would** 

### 6 **like that clarified a little bit too, that** 

### 7 **they're not -- the composites are not of** 

### 8 **separate fish but together.** 

### 9 **MR. STAPLES: Many of these fish** 

### 10 **are rather small so they'd have to be -- we'd** 

### 11 **have to have a bunch of them in order to get** 

### 12 **past the --** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: So how are you** 

### 14 **going to pick the species of fish that you** 

### 15 **sample? Or if you're going to pick two, how** 

### 16 **are you going to pick them?** 

### 17 **MR. STAPLES: Probably --** 

### 18 **MS. PLOTZKE: Biomass.** 

### 19 **MR. STAPLES: -- the two most** 

### 20 **common ones.** 

### 21 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, the two most** 

### 22 **common that you are able to get.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 MR. STAPLES: The two most**  

### 2 **abundant ones that can be --** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: How do we know** 

### 4 **that that's not -- I mean we're trying to get** 

### 5 **bias out of the system.** 

### 6 **MR. STAPLES: That's a way to get** 

### 7 **bias out of the system.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, I mean you** 

### 9 **could pick fish you know that it's not going** 

### 10 **to be there, right? That's what we're trying** 

### 11 **to avoid. Where you strategically select a** 

### 12 **species of fish that you test to slant the** 

### 13 **results. I mean that's the concern.** 

### 14 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Well, they're** 

### 15 **going to do some field reconnaissance to** 

### 16 **identify the species that are there. And then** 

### 17 **they'll go out and collect. And what they're** 

### 18 **saying is that they'll look for two species** 

### 19 **that are the most common fish there. But they** 

### 20 **may not necessarily meet our needs for trophic** 

### 21 **level.** 

### 22 **MS. EISENREICH: So, when you go**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 out and assess the site and then provide us**  

### 2 **the site-specific plan are you going to** 

### 3 **provide the information on the numbers of** 

### 4 **fish, what species they were and which -- I'm** 

### 5 **just trying to get a handle on like what we're** 

### 6 **going to have a say in for what species are** 

### 7 **collected I guess is the question.** 

### 8 **MS. PLOTZKE: So, I mean, you'll** 

### 9 **have some idea of what you should expect. But** 

### 10 **I can tell you in our current sampling plan** 

### 11 **you don't always get what you expect. So you** 

### 12 **may think that this is the common fish you're** 

### 13 **going to find, and you go out there and it's** 

### 14 **not the most abundant one that you pull up.** 

### 15 **And so you may have to adjust and change.** 

### 16 **So yes, usually you have some idea** 

### 17 **this area, we'll take a fish, whatever the** 

### 18 **common ones, the two most common ones, that's** 

### 19 **the direction that the contractor will have.** 

### 20 **But they're going to have to make some** 

### 21 **decision when they're onsite collecting. If** 

### 22 **they only get one and it's not enough biomass**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 of what we thought would be the most common**  

### 2 **they may have to adjust that.** 

### 3 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: So are you,** 

### 4 **Cathy -- and I'm not a fish biologist. When** 

### 5 **you go out to do the site survey are you going** 

### 6 **to at that point identify what fish are there?** 

### 7 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, go ahead.** 

### 8 **MR. STAPLES: Let me take a step** 

### 9 **back. The general process that we follow for** 

### 10 **the trophic magnification studies and the** 

### 11 **other monitoring programs is first we start** 

### 12 **with the local department of natural resources** 

### 13 **or whatever the term is for each state that** 

### 14 **controls the waterways.** 

### 15 **And they have knowledge of what** 

### 16 **the fishery is in those waters. And so we** 

### 17 **work with them basically all along the way of** 

### 18 **where to sample, how to sample. They often do** 

### 19 **the sampling for us. They had a laboratory** 

### 20 **bring the samples back and process them. So** 

### 21 **there is -- each one will be unique, each site** 

### 22 **will be unique. And that will be worked out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 as we go forward. So it is from them that we**  

### 2 **gain an understanding of what fish to expect.** 

### 3 **Now, as Cathy said nature has a** 

### 4 **way of interfering with the best-laid plans,** 

### 5 **and sometimes their expectation, meaning the** 

### 6 **state experts, a particular top predator** 

### 7 **species, for instance, won't be there. Or** 

### 8 **what has also happened is it was there one** 

### 9 **year and the next year we go back and it's not** 

### 10 **there anymore. So there has to be some** 

### 11 **flexibility in that.** 

### 12 **That's why my suggestion is focus** 

### 13 **on what's abundant on the day of sampling.** 

### 14 **And take the two species that are most** 

### 15 **abundant at each location.** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: So you can get some** 

### 17 **pre information. And we always do as a guide.** 

### 18 **It's just that we need to ensure we have that** 

### 19 **flexibility that on that day of collection we** 

### 20 **have options if you're not getting what you** 

### 21 **thought you were going to get when you were** 

### 22 **collecting.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 MR. STAPLES: And I would say too**  

### 2 **that we would try on the second sampling event** 

### 3 **to get the same species.** 

### 4 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. STAPLES: But nature may have** 

### 6 **a way of interfering with that.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: This is another** 

### 8 **one of those instances I guess where we just** 

### 9 **don't understand, at least I don't understand** 

### 10 **it, exactly how this is going to work.** 

### 11 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: So let me ask a** 

### 12 **more pointed question going back to our need** 

### 13 **for the two trophic levels. And I heard you** 

### 14 **say that you're wary of collecting species** 

### 15 **from two trophic levels because you're** 

### 16 **concerned that the data may be misused not by** 

### 17 **us but by others. Does that mean that you're** 

### 18 **not going to collect samples from two trophic** 

### 19 **levels even if they happen to be there?** 

### 20 **MR. STAPLES: Well, I think that** 

### 21 **we would not make an assessment of what** 

### 22 **they're trophic status is. We're not going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 study what their different trophic status --**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: I guess that's** 

### 3 **what we're asking for. Because, I mean, the** 

### 4 **most common -- I mean really the most common** 

### 5 **fish doesn't necessarily have to be the** 

### 6 **driver, it's do you have fish of two different** 

### 7 **trophic levels of sufficient biomass where you** 

### 8 **can actually take a sample. Right?** 

### 9 **MS. PLOTZKE: The other thing that** 

### 10 **I think that's fair to say that we've learned** 

### 11 **over time is that you may think that you have** 

### 12 **two fish of two different trophic levels, but** 

### 13 **when you do the appropriate markers which** 

### 14 **we're not doing here you find out you don't.** 

### 15 **There's not enough separation. That is the** 

### 16 **challenge.** 

### 17 **MS. EISENREICH: I think one of** 

### 18 **the things that we tried to clarify in the ECA** 

### 19 **was that we went to more of the feeding guild,** 

### 20 **like their -- what they feed on versus true** 

### 21 **trophic level because of those measurements** 

### 22 **that have be done to define the trophic level.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 So here we have, you know, each**  

### 2 **species has -- and it's typical. It's what** 

### 3 **they feed on typically. And we all know that** 

### 4 **that doesn't -- it varies. So we know we** 

### 5 **can't take this data and say this is -- this** 

### 6 **fish belongs to this trophic level and this** 

### 7 **fish belongs to this trophic level.** 

### 8 **But you can make generalities, you** 

### 9 **can make general statements that typically a** 

### 10 **fish feeds on -- this particular species of** 

### 11 **fish feeds on the sediment layer** 

### 12 **invertebrates, emerging insects coming off** 

### 13 **that sediment layer. Or this species of fish** 

### 14 **typically feeds on other -- it's carnivorous.** 

### 15 **It feeds on other fish.** 

### 16 **Those are the types of statements** 

### 17 **that you can make. You can't make the** 

### 18 **specific -- you keep referring to the trophic** 

### 19 **level. And we realize the data that is** 

### 20 **involved in defining a true trophic level.** 

### 21 **MS. PLOTZKE: And again, I mean** 

### 22 **you can do that, you can make some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 generalities of what you would expect. And**  

### 2 **you're right, sometimes it turns out that way** 

### 3 **-- that it's not that way. So, but you can** 

### 4 **make the generalities around it.** 

### 5 **And I think what's critical, back** 

### 6 **to your question, is we won't -- what will** 

### 7 **drive us in selecting is really the biomass** 

### 8 **piece of it. And getting enough sample** 

### 9 **versus, you know, so whether they end up being** 

### 10 **something that there's no one to feed on, one** 

### 11 **or the other.** 

### 12 **That's not going to drive us in** 

### 13 **the decision in the field. The decision in** 

### 14 **the field is we need adequate samples.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right, I** 

### 16 **understand that. The issue is you have four** 

### 17 **fish. You have adequate biomass with all four** 

### 18 **fish. How do you pick what fish to sample?** 

### 19 **I mean, I think the one fish, two fish, red** 

### 20 **fish, blue fish, you know, what is the most --** 

### 21 **do I have five fish of this, or four fish of** 

### 22 **that. I mean, I don't think that makes sense**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 to me. So, I mean I think that's -- how are**  

### 2 **you going to pick the fish?** 

### 3 **MS. EISENREICH: And I think** 

### 4 **that's the problem we're having right now, you** 

### 5 **know, in this conversation is how we're** 

### 6 **picking the fish is not clear for either of** 

### 7 **us.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: And we're saying** 

### 9 **if you have multiple species of fish and you** 

### 10 **have adequate biomass of all the species can** 

### 11 **you pick them basically on their feeding zone,** 

### 12 **or is that -- or the feeding guild. I just** 

### 13 **think that's pretty simple.** 

### 14 **MR. STAPLES: And I'm not sure** 

### 15 **we're going to know that even in the field.** 

### 16 **I guess we can get a fish biologist out in the** 

### 17 **field working on that question.** 

### 18 **But then it comes back to how do** 

### 19 **we know the details of the feeding guild. And** 

### 20 **we have an excellent example that's hampered** 

### 21 **us in that -- a top predator fish in a** 

### 22 **reasonably well-defined food web. Okay, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 top predator fish is known to eat two or three**  

### 2 **species of other fish. Well, on the month or** 

### 3 **the season in which mayflies emerge everything** 

### 4 **eats mayflies, top predators to the lowest** 

### 5 **predator. And so if you look at their gut** 

### 6 **contents the top predator is eating the same** 

### 7 **thing as a forager fish.** 

### 8 **It depends upon the situation** 

### 9 **that's happening in the fishery at the time of** 

### 10 **collection. It can vary. We can make** 

### 11 **attempts to predict it but it changes.** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think we** 

### 13 **understand there's uncertainties here.** 

### 14 **MR. STAPLES: So, because of those** 

### 15 **uncertainties there's got to be some** 

### 16 **flexibility in how we go about things in the** 

### 17 **field.** 

### 18 **I think what we're proposing is we** 

### 19 **take the two most abundant species, whatever** 

### 20 **they are. Those will be what we go after. We** 

### 21 **can commit to trying to get the same species** 

### 22 **the second sample event if we can even if they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 might not be the most abundant at that time,**  

### 2 **or we can just take the two most abundant the** 

### 3 **second time.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think we've said** 

### 5 **multiple times that the most abundant, that** 

### 6 **might not be the right choice from our** 

### 7 **perspective.** 

### 8 **MS. EISENREICH: I think at any** 

### 9 **rate that type of, you know, that language** 

### 10 **needs to go in here, that --** 

### 11 **MR. STAPLES: Leverage.** 

### 12 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, on how the** 

### 13 **fish are being selected. And we may have to** 

### 14 **have a more in-depth conversation.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 16 **MR. STAPLES: I think it would be** 

### 17 **helpful for us to clarify how that would be** 

### 18 **applied or used in the risk assessment.** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: Probably don't** 

### 20 **need a test to get to persistence in** 

### 21 **bioaccumulation. And those are concerns we** 

### 22 **have on this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 MS. EISENREICH: It also gets at**  

### 2 **variability. It helps us understand the** 

### 3 **variability in the system as well. And in our** 

### 4 **risk assessment we try and eliminate** 

### 5 **uncertainties and variability for obvious** 

### 6 **reasons. I see that as also a big -- probably** 

### 7 **the main contributor to having the two** 

### 8 **different feeding guilds if possible. Because** 

### 9 **it helps us get at some of that uncertainty.** 

### 10 **MS. PLOTZKE: We can put some** 

### 11 **criteria. I hope you're right, I hope this is** 

### 12 **a situation where we get an abundance --** 

### 13 **MR. STAPLES: We get all these --** 

### 14 **MS. PLOTZKE: -- but you just** 

### 15 **never know.** 

### 16 **MS. EISENREICH: I know we're** 

### 17 **talking ideally here, and I know that we're** 

### 18 **all aware of the environmental variabilities.** 

### 19 **And I think we agree that there has to be** 

### 20 **flexibility otherwise we'll end up with** 

### 21 **nothing.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: It all gets down**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 to given the choice what you would do.**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes. We can put** 

### 3 **some criteria around that.** 

### 4 **MR. THOMAS: And part of it is** 

### 5 **practicality too. I mean the folks that might** 

### 6 **be collecting the samples may not be as** 

### 7 **knowledgeable about fish and what they eat.** 

### 8 **You know, they may not be Ph.D. scientists in** 

### 9 **all cases. So I think it's a practical** 

### 10 **consideration.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. If you're** 

### 12 **going to talk to the natural resource guys who** 

### 13 **says these four species are likely to be** 

### 14 **there, and the guy says given a choice which** 

### 15 **ones are you going to take. I mean, not that** 

### 16 **complicated.** 

### 17 **MR. MAIT: We can offer I think** 

### 18 **general guidance. But I do agree with** 

### 19 **Karloss. If we're sending people out in the** 

### 20 **field they need to be told what they can do.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: That's the whole** 

### 22 **point of the test standards is they know what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 --**  

### 2 **MR. MAIT: Well, no, the test** 

### 3 **standards is just a guide. It's the study** 

### 4 **plan that tells them what to do.** 

### 5 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right, but that --** 

### 6 **MR. MAIT: I don't want him off** 

### 7 **going somewhere over here and we have to come** 

### 8 **back in this room and discuss why we had the** 

### 9 **deviation.** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 11 **MR. MAIT: Okay?** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Absolutely.** 

### 13 **Definitely. That's a good goal. All right,** 

### 14 **where are we?** 

### 15 **MS. EISENREICH: I think we're on** 

### 16 **the analysis of the biota samples. But here** 

### 17 **it's the same look at the conversation of the** 

### 18 **PQL.** 

### 19 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Right. And may** 

### 20 **I go back for a moment? There was one other** 

### 21 **question I had on the collection of fish** 

### 22 **samples. It's the top of the second paragraph**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 where you talk about reference fish samples**  

### 2 **with very low or non-detectable.** 

### 3 **And it's the same question that I** 

### 4 **had before, is there a specific criteria that** 

### 5 **you use for the very low detectable** 

### 6 **concentrations. If you can clarify that.** 

### 7 **Okay. Right. And then under analysis the PQL** 

### 8 **issue.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: And we did clarify** 

### 10 **the composite survey, right?** 

### 11 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes, right.** 

### 12 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Right.** 

### 13 **MS. EISENREICH: I do have a** 

### 14 **question on composites. If you had a fish** 

### 15 **that was big enough to meet your biomass would** 

### 16 **you do a composite then? Or would you just** 

### 17 **take a one fish?** 

### 18 **MR. STAPLES: Well, we might have** 

### 19 **to throw it back if it's that big.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **MS. PLOTZKE: There are some** 

### 22 **limitations on how to process. I'm trying to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 think how big.**  

### 2 **MS. EISENREICH: Well, I guess I** 

### 3 **just to go back to like some of the sampling** 

### 4 **that I've done in the past. I just use it as** 

### 5 **sort of a benchmark. We typically use it** 

### 6 **regarding a sample. And I know it's going to** 

### 7 **be different -- obviously this is chemical** 

### 8 **dependent.** 

### 9 **You know, we're oftentimes in the** 

### 10 **monitoring program that I was part of would** 

### 11 **get fish that were greater than 3 grams where** 

### 12 **we wouldn't composite samples. We would take** 

### 13 **a single fish.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Is there a** 

### 15 **preferred approach?** 

### 16 **MS. EISENREICH: I just wanted** 

### 17 **clarification. I didn't get that in there.** 

### 18 **MS. PLOTZKE: Okay, we can clarify** 

### 19 **that.** 

### 20 **MS. EISENREICH: It's more of a** 

### 21 **case of we should know what's being composited** 

### 22 **and what's not.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: Right.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. I** 

### 3 **understand.** 

### 4 **MS. EISENREICH: But I don't want** 

### 5 **species composited across -- I don't want** 

### 6 **composites across species.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Correct. Okay,** 

### 8 **where are we here?** 

### 9 **MS. EISENREICH: The GLP is the** 

### 10 **same. Same issue with the GLPs.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Is the number of** 

### 12 **samples a similar issue?** 

### 13 **MS. EISENREICH: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. STAPLES: I know you're** 

### 15 **sensitive to the number of samples but this is** 

### 16 **particularly important with the benthic** 

### 17 **invertebrates in terms of how many grab** 

### 18 **samples you need to get a lot of replicates.** 

### 19 **And there may be some practical limitations to** 

### 20 **that capability.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 22 **MS. EISENREICH: But in the end**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 two is still not sufficient. I mean, three is**  

### 2 **your absolute minimum requirement for** 

### 3 **statistical variability and just calculating** 

### 4 **general means in general basic statistics. So** 

### 5 **three is your absolute minimum requirement** 

### 6 **which is why we say two is not adequate. And** 

### 7 **a sample size of three barely gets at** 

### 8 **variability. That's just what's minimally** 

### 9 **statistically required.** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: I noticed in this** 

### 11 **detection level there was a wet -- there's a** 

### 12 **wet basis, expressed as a wet basis. Is that** 

### 13 **warm?** 

### 14 **MS. EISENREICH: For the fish. Or** 

### 15 **actually for both. It should be --** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: Wet?** 

### 17 **MS. EISENREICH: Wet weight, yes.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay, and again** 

### 19 **we'll have to -- at some point we're going to** 

### 20 **have to specify what we believe is necessary** 

### 21 **for the detection level for our risk** 

### 22 **assessment. So we're going to be working on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 that.**  

### 2 **Okay. Anything else on this?** 

### 3 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: That's all I** 

### 4 **had.** 

### 5 **MR. PENBERTHY: Oh, it's 12:30.** 

### 6 **Do you all want to keep going or do you want** 

### 7 **to break for lunch?** 

### 8 **MR. STAPLES: Maybe go through and** 

### 9 **just finish the standards?** 

### 10 **MS. PLOTZKE: Are we done with the** 

### 11 **standards?** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, we have** 

### 13 **sediment and we have biosolids.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Just take a quick** 

### 15 **break?** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay with me. All** 

### 17 **right, that would be a good breaking point I** 

### 18 **think. And then we can do the POTWs after** 

### 19 **lunch. Very good.** 

### 20 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 21 **went off the record at 12:28 p.m. and went** 

### 22 **back on the record at 12:42 p.m.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 MR. SELTZER: Folks on the phone,**  

### 2 **we're starting to get in the room. I heard** 

### 3 **one beep on the phone earlier, someone didn't** 

### 4 **announce their name.** 

### 5 **MS. DUMARS: Yes, hi, it's Lisa** 

### 6 **Dumars from Momentive. I wanted to not** 

### 7 **interrupt you. I was late, I apologize.** 

### 8 **MR. SELTZER: Thanks a lot, Lisa.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think we have** 

### 10 **similar --** 

### 11 **MR. SELTZER: Can everyone on the** 

### 12 **phone hear all right? Or should we move** 

### 13 **microphones down slightly? If everybody** 

### 14 **sounds all right.** 

### 15 **MS. DUMARS: We can hear everybody** 

### 16 **fairly well. Cathy -- I believe it's Cathy** 

### 17 **Fehrenbacher --** 

### 18 **MR. SELTZER: I'm going to move my** 

### 19 **mike a little bit closer to her when she** 

### 20 **talks.** 

### 21 **MS. DUMARS: That would be great,** 

### 22 **thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 MR. SELTZER: All right, no**  

### 2 **problem.** 

### 3 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: So I think our** 

### 4 **comments for sediments are very similar to** 

### 5 **what we had for the other test standards. So** 

### 6 **I'll go through them quickly for you.** 

### 7 **So we talked about the deposition** 

### 8 **zone and the field reconnaissance and adding** 

### 9 **some more information there on the salient** 

### 10 **points. We talked about the number of** 

### 11 **samples, two, being insufficient for our** 

### 12 **purposes.** 

### 13 **We talked about -- this is under** 

### 14 **collection of sediment samples on page 2. We** 

### 15 **talked about adding more high-level salient** 

### 16 **points for the references that you've** 

### 17 **included.** 

### 18 **In the second paragraph there's** 

### 19 **another statement about the referenced** 

### 20 **sediment samples. So if you have a criteria** 

### 21 **that you utilize in your lab if you could** 

### 22 **include that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 And let's see. On the next page,**  

### 2 **top of page 3 again you have the Powell and** 

### 3 **Woodburne citation.** 

### 4 **And then moving onto the next** 

### 5 **paragraph on the analysis I think we discussed** 

### 6 **some of the qualifications for the commercial** 

### 7 **testing laboratories and the concern about the** 

### 8 **practical quantitation limit and the method** 

### 9 **detection limit. And as Ward has said, we'll** 

### 10 **get back to you on that.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Is sediment, is** 

### 12 **that a wet weight standard? The detection** 

### 13 **limit.** 

### 14 **MR. STAPLES: It is a wet weight** 

### 15 **concentration unit. The reason for that is** 

### 16 **the sediment samples, that's not actually** 

### 17 **dried during the extraction procedure. We are** 

### 18 **going to measure water content anyway so that** 

### 19 **we can convert the units to dry weight which** 

### 20 **is more conventional.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 22 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. So that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 was a very high-level, quick overview of our**  

### 2 **comments. But there's some more to the** 

### 3 **comments on the other test standards. I don't** 

### 4 **know if folks have other comments. Karen?** 

### 5 **Sara?** 

### 6 **MS. EISENREICH: Pretty much the** 

### 7 **same.** 

### 8 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: They should** 

### 10 **parallel the biota.** 

### 11 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. Should** 

### 12 **we move on to biosolids?** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: Sure. That would** 

### 14 **be great.** 

### 15 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. So,** 

### 16 **moving onto biosolids. On the first page** 

### 17 **additional clarity under establishment of the** 

### 18 **location. Additional clarity on the point of** 

### 19 **release and where you plan to take the samples** 

### 20 **would be helpful there. It wasn't really** 

### 21 **clear.** 

### 22 **MR. STAPLES: On which page and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 paragraph?**  

### 2 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Page 1, the** 

### 3 **paragraph titled establishment of the location** 

### 4 **for biosolid sample collection.** 

### 5 **MR. STAPLES: We cannot give you** 

### 6 **specificity until we go with a facility and** 

### 7 **see what they have on the biosolids.** 

### 8 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: I know, but --** 

### 9 **but you're talking about the biosolids release** 

### 10 **point. And it's not clear to me what you mean** 

### 11 **by that.** 

### 12 **MR. STAPLES: The biosolids** 

### 13 **release point is they can find an ECA text** 

### 14 **that you put in there. So you can tell us** 

### 15 **what you mean by the release point. If it's** 

### 16 **something not understandable.** 

### 17 **To us it meant the -- I think in** 

### 18 **standard practice it means right when the** 

### 19 **biosolid is ready to leave the facility. It** 

### 20 **might be trucks, it might be in some other** 

### 21 **fashion, but it's as it's leaving. So that's** 

### 22 **our understanding of it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 Within some of the guidance that**  

### 2 **were cited later it talks about figuring out** 

### 3 **what that is. But it's unique to the** 

### 4 **facility. We don't know if that's going to be** 

### 5 **a truck a day, a truck an hour or some other** 

### 6 **process.** 

### 7 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. We** 

### 8 **should -- we'll go back and look at that and** 

### 9 **get back to you.** 

### 10 **MR. STAPLES: And I do want to** 

### 11 **emphasize that we did not think that it meant** 

### 12 **sampling within the biosolid processing stage** 

### 13 **within the facility. It is whatever is** 

### 14 **leaving the facility to go be landfilled or** 

### 15 **incinerated or put on land or soil.** 

### 16 **MR. MAIT: Normally it's a hopper.** 

### 17 **There's some kind of a hopper of some kind.** 

### 18 **Whether it's theirs and then they process it** 

### 19 **through their incinerator, or it's a** 

### 20 **contractor's 40-yard box that sits there and** 

### 21 **the truck comes and picks it up and takes it** 

### 22 **away. It's a rolling box. We did not think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 it was the final centrifuge prior to de-water**  

### 2 **or something like that.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: So it comes out of** 

### 4 **the centrifuge into the hopper and then it can** 

### 5 **sit there.** 

### 6 **MR. MAIT: Could be a centrifuge.** 

### 7 **Could be a belt filter. Could be a DAF unit.** 

### 8 **Could be a variety of different things.** 

### 9 **MR. STAPLES: Some are composted** 

### 10 **at a water well. So they sit in piles and** 

### 11 **every so often you turn the pile over and one** 

### 12 **day fill up trucks and drive it away. So it's** 

### 13 **as the material leaves the facility and goes** 

### 14 **out away from their control.** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay, so why don't** 

### 16 **we leave the -- why don't we work on that to** 

### 17 **make sure that that's what we require.** 

### 18 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. And we** 

### 19 **can clarify that in the ECAs as well.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 21 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. And then** 

### 22 **at the top of page 2 we have language, again**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 we talked about this in the other standards,**  

### 2 **the special considerations and having** 

### 3 **additional information, the salient points of** 

### 4 **what some of those special considerations** 

### 5 **would be.** 

### 6 **The number of samples. We've** 

### 7 **discussed that adding -- under collection and** 

### 8 **biosolid samples. So these would be** 

### 9 **composited samples and I think that makes** 

### 10 **sense.** 

### 11 **And then including the salient** 

### 12 **points from some of the references and any** 

### 13 **qualifications for the analytical** 

### 14 **laboratories. You have another statement in** 

### 15 **the next paragraph about the reference and** 

### 16 **here it says sediment samples. But are you** 

### 17 **going to use sediment for the reference for** 

### 18 **biosolids?** 

### 19 **MR. STAPLES: Yes, that is** 

### 20 **correct. We do not feel that -- we have no** 

### 21 **experience with spiking biosolids. And the** 

### 22 **relevance of that particular matrix, how you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 mix it and so forth.**  

### 2 **But we do have experience with** 

### 3 **reference sediment samples. And because the** 

### 4 **analytical minds were biosolids are very** 

### 5 **similar to the sediment we thought the true** 

### 6 **and useful quality assurance steps.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: What does two** 

### 8 **composited samples mean?** 

### 9 **MR. STAPLES: For the biosolids it** 

### 10 **is not a time composite. What this means is** 

### 11 **that, for instance, we describe a 40-ton box.** 

### 12 **It may be dump trucks or however it's removed** 

### 13 **from facilities. The samples would be taken** 

### 14 **at multiple locations within that box and** 

### 15 **composited into one sample.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 17 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. And** 

### 18 **then, so we were talking about the reference** 

### 19 **sediment samples and the very low or non** 

### 20 **detectable. So if you could clarify that.** 

### 21 **DR. MCNETT: This is Debbie** 

### 22 **McNett. The reason for using sediment in this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 case is anticipating the difficulty in finding**  

### 2 **low or very low biosolid samples to use as a** 

### 3 **reference field collection.** 

### 4 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. And then** 

### 5 **under the analysis of biosolids, the** 

### 6 **qualifications of the commercial laboratory.** 

### 7 **And then any additional** 

### 8 **information that you have regarding the** 

### 9 **adaptation of the analytical method. I don't** 

### 10 **know if you've given that any thought. Are** 

### 11 **there --** 

### 12 **MR. STAPLES: I'm sorry, I don't** 

### 13 **understand.** 

### 14 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Are there** 

### 15 **specific adaptations that you believe will** 

### 16 **need to be made from the analytical method for** 

### 17 **biosolids?** 

### 18 **MR. STAPLES: Well, we already** 

### 19 **have a method that's been worked out for** 

### 20 **biosolids. This is your --** 

### 21 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. STAPLES: It was adapted from**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 the sediment method but it has worked with**  

### 2 **actual biosolid samples from a facility local** 

### 3 **to the laboratory.** 

### 4 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. I was** 

### 5 **just I guess reacting to the language here** 

### 6 **that says the laboratory, the commercial lab** 

### 7 **will validate a method that shall be adapted** 

### 8 **from the Knoerr method.** 

### 9 **MS. PLOTZKE: I think when we go** 

### 10 **back with the references and pull up some of** 

### 11 **the high-level we'll specify that.** 

### 12 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. STAPLES: Yes, in all cases** 

### 14 **what the commercial lab would do with this is** 

### 15 **adapt the existing methods into their facility** 

### 16 **using their implements and their method.** 

### 17 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. STAPLES: Their personnel.** 

### 19 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. And then** 

### 20 **on page 3 we have the same sorts of questions** 

### 21 **on the PQL and the limit of detection. We'll** 

### 22 **go back and look at the limit of detection.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 And then the GLPs.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Everybody** 

### 3 **is tuckered out. So, do we have anything else** 

### 4 **to discuss here? So you guys, it's almost 1** 

### 5 **o'clock. What time do you -- how much time do** 

### 6 **you need? There's a food court right down in** 

### 7 **the Reagan Building, in the basement of the** 

### 8 **Reagan Building. Forty-five minutes? Is that** 

### 9 **-- it shouldn't take much longer than that.** 

### 10 **MS. PLOTZKE: Probably coming back** 

### 11 **around 1:30?** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, sure, 1:30.** 

### 13 **Let's try it for 1:30.** 

### 14 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 15 **went off the record at 12:57 p.m. and went** 

### 16 **back on the record at 1:49 p.m.)** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay, how do you** 

### 18 **want to proceed? I mean you have two** 

### 19 **documents I think related to this. One is the** 

### 20 **-- I guess your member company accounting and** 

### 21 **then there's a document.** 

### 22 **MR. THOMAS: Why don't we start**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 with just the work done by ERM to identify the**  

### 2 **candidate POTWs.** 

### 3 **And I just want to start with just** 

### 4 **a brief overview of how we developed this** 

### 5 **document. We essentially asked ERM to develop** 

### 6 **a list of candidate POTWs that met the** 

### 7 **criteria that we had previously agreed to** 

### 8 **using publicly available information. I think** 

### 9 **that's going to be part of the key here** 

### 10 **because they had to use publicly available** 

### 11 **information to kind of use those criteria that** 

### 12 **were established to identify the candidate** 

### 13 **POTWs.** 

### 14 **I do want to emphasize that these** 

### 15 **are intended to be candidate recommendations.** 

### 16 **So to the extent that there are suggestions or** 

### 17 **possibilities of adding other sites we're** 

### 18 **certainly welcome to consider those.** 

### 19 **In addition, based on the** 

### 20 **discussion we had this morning it sounds like** 

### 21 **we have potentially two other criteria that** 

### 22 **we're going to be thinking about in terms of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 identifying the final list. The one thing we**  

### 2 **talked about is identifying POTWs where the** 

### 3 **mixing zone is already well established as** 

### 4 **part of the operating permit for the facility.** 

### 5 **The other thing that we talked about a little** 

### 6 **bit was potentially identifying sites to** 

### 7 **minimize to the extent that we can the** 

### 8 **distance between the mixing zone and the** 

### 9 **deposition zone.** 

### 10 **So I think those are two things** 

### 11 **that were discussed this morning. And again** 

### 12 **we don't have any real hard and fast -- we're** 

### 13 **not wedded to this in any way. Again, this** 

### 14 **was just some methodology that was used to** 

### 15 **identify candidate sites.** 

### 16 **The other document, Ward, that you** 

### 17 **mentioned is a separate listing of those POTWs** 

### 18 **associated with our member indirect** 

### 19 **facilities. We had a lot of discussion about** 

### 20 **that previously so we just wanted to be** 

### 21 **transparent about those sites and why they** 

### 22 **either weren't included or were included.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 Those that were not were primarily excluded on**  

### 2 **the basis of criteria that were established by** 

### 3 **the agency. Again, we're not opposed to** 

### 4 **having additional discussions about the** 

### 5 **appropriateness of adding those back in or** 

### 6 **not. Does that make sense?** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. THOMAS: Okay. So, I don't** 

### 9 **want to go through this document in detail.** 

### 10 **I think the most relevant parts of it with** 

### 11 **respect to how the sites were identified. And** 

### 12 **I'll start with those sites that are intended** 

### 13 **to be representative of industrial sites.** 

### 14 **On page 3, section 2.3 walks** 

### 15 **through that methodology. It essentially** 

### 16 **involves using EPA databases. The ECHO** 

### 17 **database was used in this case to identify** 

### 18 **those sites that were --** 

### 19 **MR. TOBIAS: Sorry. Are we** 

### 20 **talking about the --** 

### 21 **MR. THOMAS: This is the ERM** 

### 22 **report, page 3, section 2.3. List of POTWs**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 that received discharges from the identified**  

### 2 **users. So these are going to be the** 

### 3 **industrial POTWs. And they kind of walk** 

### 4 **through how they identified those sites. And** 

### 5 **I'm not going to read through that.** 

### 6 **I think the table on page 14 has a** 

### 7 **graphical representation of how the sites were** 

### 8 **identified. They start with the two** 

### 9 **databases, the EPA Reach database and the** 

### 10 **iSTREEM database and use those to identify** 

### 11 **those sites that are activated sludge sites,** 

### 12 **roughly 5,000.** 

### 13 **And then from there there's a** 

### 14 **separate effort to identify those that have a** 

### 15 **dilution factor less than 3. And then there** 

### 16 **they try to by individual state identify those** 

### 17 **sites that met the criteria of having a** 

### 18 **dilution factor of less than 3 and had a** 

### 19 **population that was larger than the criteria** 

### 20 **that we identified.** 

### 21 **And then from there they contacted** 

### 22 **POTWs and based on discussions with the POTW**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 operators they came to a final candidate list**  

### 2 **of both residential POTWs and industrial** 

### 3 **POTWs. And it's those discussions with the** 

### 4 **POTW operators that allowed them to get at a** 

### 5 **number of those factors that you can't get an** 

### 6 **understanding of using publicly available** 

### 7 **information.** 

### 8 **So I'll stop there briefly and see** 

### 9 **if there are any questions on the criteria and** 

### 10 **so forth before we delve into the specific** 

### 11 **sites.** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: I guess we don't** 

### 13 **know for sure from the methodology whether** 

### 14 **there in fact is a site that's actually** 

### 15 **discharging D4 from the selection methods. I** 

### 16 **mean, so how do we know that there's actually** 

### 17 **a D4 source in any of the POTWs selected?** 

### 18 **MR. THOMAS: Well, we can -- I** 

### 19 **think there are certainly things we can talk** 

### 20 **about from the standpoint of confirming** 

### 21 **whether those sites receive effluent from an** 

### 22 **industrial site that uses D4.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 But the whole basis of the**  

### 2 **methodology for the industrial uses was based** 

### 3 **on use of D4. So they identified a number of** 

### 4 **uses of D4 and I think they are identified on** 

### 5 **the basis of NAICS codes.** 

### 6 **And then they identified specific** 

### 7 **facilities that used those codes. And that** 

### 8 **was the basis for the -- all of the industrial** 

### 9 **sites.** 

### 10 **Now we can separately talk about** 

### 11 **ways that we can confirm that. Some of those** 

### 12 **we're going to have difficulty from a trade** 

### 13 **association standpoint because of antitrust.** 

### 14 **I think one of the options might** 

### 15 **be to work with the specific POTWs to try to** 

### 16 **get confirmation of that. And I think that's** 

### 17 **something that they can help us with.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, that would be** 

### 19 **helpful. Because the categories, the use** 

### 20 **categories in the exposed air broad and** 

### 21 **there's no guarantee that there's D4 there to** 

### 22 **be measured. Somehow there has to be --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 MR. THOMAS: For each of the sites**  

### 2 **--** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: -- a known source.** 

### 4 **MR. THOMAS: -- if you look at** 

### 5 **Table 2 I think lists the specific industries** 

### 6 **discharging to the non-POTWs. I think we can** 

### 7 **make a reasonable assumption about many of** 

### 8 **those with respect to whether they use D4.** 

### 9 **MR. MAIT: From this basis, Ward,** 

### 10 **the idea would be, as Karloss was mentioning,** 

### 11 **there needs to be an additional refinement** 

### 12 **when you vet the final POTW where we would be** 

### 13 **encouraging the POTW operator to basically** 

### 14 **survey their permitted indirect dischargers** 

### 15 **with some sort of, let's say a survey form, to** 

### 16 **affirm or not affirm that they have D4 as part** 

### 17 **of their processing formulating or otherwise** 

### 18 **used. So something along those lines to** 

### 19 **basically -- because we figured this would be** 

### 20 **a topic.** 

### 21 **But at this point we're not at** 

### 22 **that level. There's no way to do this without**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 us sort of -- you know, I can sit here and go**  

### 2 **through this just from my own knowledge of** 

### 3 **manufacturing and the use of the product and** 

### 4 **surmise that it's likely to be there. But I** 

### 5 **can't guarantee it. And I'm not in a position** 

### 6 **to affirm that a company in this list does in** 

### 7 **fact procure D4 in some way from somebody.** 

### 8 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Was there a** 

### 9 **list of questions that you asked POTWs?** 

### 10 **MR. MAIT: Well, that's how this** 

### 11 **Table 1 was created. There was a series of** 

### 12 **queries.** 

### 13 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: I was just** 

### 14 **wondering if it would be helpful for you to** 

### 15 **share that list of questions with us. It** 

### 16 **might give us insight into how we will, you** 

### 17 **know, the process that you used for narrowing** 

### 18 **the list down.** 

### 19 **MR. THOMAS: Now, some of that is** 

### 20 **mentioned in the methodology. On page 4 the** 

### 21 **last few bullets, the last one in particular,** 

### 22 **they note that the POTWs were contacted to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 determine if it was an activated sludge plan,**  

### 2 **if there was access points to the receiving** 

### 3 **water, if the plant would be willing to** 

### 4 **participate in the monitoring program. So I** 

### 5 **think most of that is already here.** 

### 6 **In addition, on the -- for the** 

### 7 **residential POTWs another one of the questions** 

### 8 **that was asked was whether they received less** 

### 9 **than 15 percent of their influent from** 

### 10 **industrial sources or users of D4. So I think** 

### 11 **all of that is here.** 

### 12 **Now, certainly when we go through** 

### 13 **the next step of further refinement I think** 

### 14 **there are going to need to be some additional** 

### 15 **questions.** 

### 16 **Again, this morning we talked** 

### 17 **about whether there is a mixing zone that's** 

### 18 **well established. That's probably a** 

### 19 **reasonable question we want to ask.** 

### 20 **There's also some -- we talked a** 

### 21 **little bit about how far the deposition zone** 

### 22 **was from the mixing zone. That's something**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 else we can get a sense for.**  

### 2 **But I think once we go through the** 

### 3 **next step of refinement something we certainly** 

### 4 **want to do with good input from EPA and also** 

### 5 **NACWA but there are several other questions we** 

### 6 **want to get specific answers back from the** 

### 7 **operators of the POTWS.** 

### 8 **MR. AVCIN: Karloss, do you know,** 

### 9 **going back to Table 2 for just a second, why** 

### 10 **four POTWs were left from discharger columns?** 

### 11 **MR. THOMAS: I suspect they** 

### 12 **weren't able to get that information.** 

### 13 **MR. AVCIN: They didn't ask.** 

### 14 **MR. THOMAS: They didn't get the** 

### 15 **details yet.** 

### 16 **MR. AVCIN: Okay. But there's** 

### 17 **still -- despite that, you're asserting that** 

### 18 **there's still some belief that they would** 

### 19 **receive D4 materials from process** 

### 20 **reformulators?** 

### 21 **MR. THOMAS: Right. I mean, they** 

### 22 **walked through their methodology to identify**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 those sites that they thought would likely**  

### 2 **process D4. And all of those are listed here** 

### 3 **as the nine.** 

### 4 **And then they contacted each of** 

### 5 **those POTWs to try to get a sense for who they** 

### 6 **were receiving effluent from.** 

### 7 **MR. AVCIN: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. THOMAS: And those that** 

### 9 **provided that information, it's all listed** 

### 10 **here. Apparently for a couple of them they** 

### 11 **were not able to get that information by the** 

### 12 **time they developed this report.** 

### 13 **MR. DOYLE: So they were sites** 

### 14 **that met the NAIC criteria.** 

### 15 **MR. AVCIN: Okay. Because I was** 

### 16 **just wondering how did they get to the point** 

### 17 **of being contacted if that information was** 

### 18 **apparently absent initially.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: It was because of the -** 

### 20 **- yes, it was because of the basic -- the** 

### 21 **industry codes that were associated with those** 

### 22 **POTWs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 Because as what we're doing here,**  

### 2 **we're going from we don't know anything to a** 

### 3 **list of likely facilities that with a certain** 

### 4 **level of confidence we feel that they would be** 

### 5 **receiving from industrial sources materials** 

### 6 **associated with a processing reformulator of** 

### 7 **D4.** 

### 8 **Now, the certainly factor is not** 

### 9 **here yet. And I think that's the only point** 

### 10 **we're making is that we can't tell you for** 

### 11 **certain that if I go in here and I pick one of** 

### 12 **these guys and say do I know that they in fact** 

### 13 **do that, I can't tell you yes or no.** 

### 14 **I can tell you by virtue of what** 

### 15 **they do for a living the likelihood that they** 

### 16 **don't do it is kind of remote. But again,** 

### 17 **that will have to be sort of facts developed** 

### 18 **on the ground. So I mean that's part of the** 

### 19 **vetting process to the next level.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: Can we go back to** 

### 21 **maybe review some of our past discussions? We** 

### 22 **might have contributed to some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 misunderstanding here based on how we added**  

### 2 **some language to Appendix 2 of the ECA which** 

### 3 **describes how you get the indirect sites.** 

### 4 **When we first started it you all** 

### 5 **had direct discharge sites and those seemed to** 

### 6 **be relatively established. And then you had** 

### 7 **a list of indirect discharge sites and we were** 

### 8 **interested in monitoring the indirect** 

### 9 **discharge sites.** 

### 10 **And then the question came up,** 

### 11 **well, are there other sites that are indirect** 

### 12 **dischargers to substitute those. And then we** 

### 13 **didn't have a problem with that.** 

### 14 **But I think what's happened in the** 

### 15 **Appendix 2, we sort of overlap some of the** 

### 16 **population stuff in there that was probably** 

### 17 **not intentional. Probably an error on our** 

### 18 **part.** 

### 19 **And I think -- I think there is** 

### 20 **some good value in getting at the monitoring** 

### 21 **at the indirect sites from which we absolutely** 

### 22 **know that there is a D4 discharge at some of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 the companies you have on your other list.**  

### 2 **Because there's certainly there, right?** 

### 3 **Because there is a wastewater discharge.** 

### 4 **And so that might be something we need to talk** 

### 5 **about. And then --** 

### 6 **MR. MAIT: So, are you suggesting** 

### 7 **that you would be modifying Appendix 2 to make** 

### 8 **that clear?** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, I mean I** 

### 10 **think Appendix 2 is a little bit misleading** 

### 11 **from what our conversations were.** 

### 12 **MR. MAIT: Because it's the issue** 

### 13 **of weighting criteria.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: So the problem is is we** 

### 16 **have to be methodical about this.** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: Correct.** 

### 18 **MR. MAIT: Because we don't want** 

### 19 **to be just picking and choosing winners and** 

### 20 **losers.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: I understand.** 

### 22 **We're not winners and losers. We're all**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 winners here.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: I didn't say which way** 

### 4 **you meant.** 

### 5 **MR. PENBERTHY: If you look at** 

### 6 **Appendix 2 all sites monitored shall use** 

### 7 **activated sludge. Okay, we're certainly in** 

### 8 **agreement with this.** 

### 9 **And then consideration again of** 

### 10 **whether POTW treats other industrial sources** 

### 11 **of wastewater. You know, apart from the D4.** 

### 12 **And then that's fair enough.** 

### 13 **I think where we might have been** 

### 14 **not as accurate as we should have is in the** 

### 15 **next one where we sort of overlay this** 

### 16 **population type thing which I think is a** 

### 17 **remnant from Appendix 3. And then also** 

### 18 **geography was an issue. And then we wanted** 

### 19 **river systems.** 

### 20 **You know, I think for purposes of** 

### 21 **the direct sites what we wanted to be sure to** 

### 22 **have was activated sludge POTWs that are on a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 river with a certain release of D4. And we're**  

### 2 **less concerned about those other factors.** 

### 3 **And so there may be sites on the** 

### 4 **list that have been -- that we could just put** 

### 5 **in, drop in, irrespective of the selection** 

### 6 **procedure. But, so I'm just bringing that up.** 

### 7 **MR. THOMAS: So, would your** 

### 8 **expectation be that those sites that would be** 

### 9 **dropped back in, would they meet the criteria** 

### 10 **that we talked about for having activated** 

### 11 **sludge and also having --** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Activated sludge** 

### 13 **be on a river and then maybe geography is a** 

### 14 **piece of that.** 

### 15 **MR. THOMAS: Dilution not so** 

### 16 **important?** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, I don't think** 

### 18 **so. Because with their known source. There's** 

### 19 **no doubt about that.** 

### 20 **MR. MAIT: Okay. I guess from my** 

### 21 **point of view I would like that section of** 

### 22 **Appendix 2 to sort of reflect the weighting of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 factors in that way. Otherwise, it does**  

### 2 **appear that you're introducing a particular** 

### 3 **bias to this where someone is going to ask you** 

### 4 **how did you pick that one and you said I just** 

### 5 **decided to. Right?** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Fair enough.** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: All we did is follow** 

### 8 **the logic of the criteria that was proposed.** 

### 9 **And that's explicitly why you got the list of** 

### 10 **our indirect sites, why they were screened in** 

### 11 **or screened out, because the criteria was** 

### 12 **driving the selection.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. And the** 

### 14 **problem we had was in that third criteria. We** 

### 15 **probably overemphasized that, or maybe** 

### 16 **shouldn't have even included it.** 

### 17 **MR. MAIT: Because I can't speak** 

### 18 **for everybody here, I know I can speak for** 

### 19 **Evonik, I have no problem if you sample the** 

### 20 **POTW in Hopewell.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. So, anyway.** 

### 22 **I mean -- I guess you know the answer.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 MR. MAIT: Yes. And I can offer**  

### 2 **that the agency has been there many times** 

### 3 **before. So it wouldn't be the first time.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: All right. Fair** 

### 5 **enough. I mean, so anyway, I guess how do we** 

### 6 **understand from the list of candidates how are** 

### 7 **we going to get to -- is there a D4 source,** 

### 8 **and is it really -- is there going to be a** 

### 9 **discerning of how big that source has to be?** 

### 10 **MR. THOMAS: Well, now that was** 

### 11 **never considered. The size of the source was** 

### 12 **never a consideration.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right, but it has** 

### 14 **to be -- there has to be a source that you're** 

### 15 **measuring, right? Because that's the intent,** 

### 16 **right?** 

### 17 **MR. THOMAS: Well, I thought what** 

### 18 **we were measuring were sites that receive** 

### 19 **influent from a facility that uses D4. How** 

### 20 **much D4 they were using I didn't --** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Correct. But if** 

### 22 **they use a kilogram that's a lot different.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 You know, that's not meaningful. If they use,**  

### 2 **you know, a very much larger volume, that's** 

### 3 **different. You know, we want an industrial** 

### 4 **source, not a trivial source.** 

### 5 **MR. THOMAS: Sure. But that kind** 

### 6 **of information would be difficult for us to** 

### 7 **try and get. I hear Trent about to speak up.** 

### 8 **MR. DOYLE: We can know our** 

### 9 **sources or our facilities. But to get at that** 

### 10 **information from all these other facilities.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 12 **MR. DOYLE: So, I guess then** 

### 13 **maybe, just to follow up on that. So I guess** 

### 14 **then if we want to sort of re-craft or** 

### 15 **redefine the criteria so that they end up with** 

### 16 **just five sites that coincide with our five** 

### 17 **sites, I guess we need to sort of engineer** 

### 18 **what the criteria are to get us there.** 

### 19 **MS. PLOTZKE: I don't even think** 

### 20 **we can get there.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: We don't five** 

### 22 **sites.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 MR. DOYLE: That's --**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: I know there's** 

### 4 **maybe one or two in your list that are** 

### 5 **indirect discharges that would be useful. And** 

### 6 **then the other three --** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: And I would just offer** 

### 8 **to you, Ward, that even though there may be** 

### 9 **member sites that you're interested in, when** 

### 10 **you suggest the criteria, well, they have to** 

### 11 **be a big user, take care. We're all different** 

### 12 **sizes. Okay? So.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: But do you -- I** 

### 14 **mean, I think the fact that you actually are** 

### 15 **known to process D4 --** 

### 16 **MR. MAIT: But that's the same** 

### 17 **contention if I go to somebody who uses a** 

### 18 **defoamer and he uses 1 ton a year. Okay? And** 

### 19 **his effluent is 1 million gallons a day. The** 

### 20 **expectation is he's probably used it in a way** 

### 21 **that he doesn't really want to lose that much.** 

### 22 **So frankly you're still back in the same**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 quandary of you have to have a level of**  

### 2 **criteria that we can pick.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: But you've got to** 

### 4 **be objective in monitoring. We still** 

### 5 **understand the wastewater concentrations of D4** 

### 6 **for processors and reformulators. So we need** 

### 7 **to know are there -- is there --** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: But what you're only** 

### 9 **going to get is you're only going to get** 

### 10 **what's going into the wastewater treatment** 

### 11 **plant. You're not going to get a volume basis** 

### 12 **on what that individual manufacturer in this** 

### 13 **list is doing. All you're going to get is an** 

### 14 **--** 

### 15 **MR. PENBERTHY: If you want some** 

### 16 **number of -- something of D4 to be in the** 

### 17 **influent there has to be a concentration of D4** 

### 18 **in the influent. Right?** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: I hate to go all the** 

### 20 **way back but there was a proposal almost 2** 

### 21 **years ago where that was what we were planning** 

### 22 **on doing, to screen in and screen out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 facilities that would fit the criteria.**  

### 2 **That's not where we are today.** 

### 3 **The only way you know that -- I** 

### 4 **don't know it a priori. I don't think anybody** 

### 5 **in this room could predict.** 

### 6 **What you can find out is do you** 

### 7 **use it. And these sort of surveys go from** 

### 8 **POTW operators to their permittees and say do** 

### 9 **you use this material. And they say yes or** 

### 10 **no.** 

### 11 **I don't think any of them have a** 

### 12 **quantification that they're going to offer in** 

### 13 **terms of -- they probably don't even know** 

### 14 **what's in the wastewater. That's sort of what** 

### 15 **our project is.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: How do we** 

### 17 **establish that there's actually D4 being** 

### 18 **treated?** 

### 19 **MR. THOMAS: We can confirm** 

### 20 **whether the facilities that are discharging to** 

### 21 **the POTWs use D4.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: I mean, the point I'm**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 making is we would do the same thing that**  

### 2 **under any water program. If they're** 

### 3 **attempting to look at a new regulation they go** 

### 4 **out and they survey the folks that discharge** 

### 5 **to that facility and they make an affirmative** 

### 6 **yes or no, do you use or not use. And there's** 

### 7 **a definition in terms of what "use" means.** 

### 8 **And you get an affirmative yes or no.** 

### 9 **But part of the program is to** 

### 10 **quantify that. That's the objective. You're** 

### 11 **not going to have the quantification a priori.** 

### 12 **You're going to have an affirmative yes, it is** 

### 13 **there in some form.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. So we need** 

### 15 **to work out what that --** 

### 16 **MR. MAIT: I mean that was the** 

### 17 **suggestion we just made was that would be part** 

### 18 **of the next step here is to go back to these** 

### 19 **folks and ask through NACWA as well as the** 

### 20 **POTW operators to take care of this survey.** 

### 21 **So we do in fact -- I don't think** 

### 22 **we want to start the program and do it and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 find out -- some of these guys may have closed**  

### 2 **up shop.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes. Fair enough.** 

### 4 **MR. THOMAS: And if you guys have** 

### 5 **specific suggestions in addition to what we've** 

### 6 **mentioned. Because again our next vetting** 

### 7 **phase essentially is going to attempt to** 

### 8 **confirm whether these facilities use D4. And** 

### 9 **probably the best instrument that we could** 

### 10 **offer to do that would be some form of a** 

### 11 **survey.** 

### 12 **If there are other suggestions** 

### 13 **that you have with respect to how we might** 

### 14 **better do that I think we'd be happy to hear** 

### 15 **about it. Short of us trying to quantify it.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. AVCIN: Can I ask a question** 

### 18 **with respect to one of your sites? The Dow** 

### 19 **site at Auburn. The excluding factor there** 

### 20 **was a combined sewer.** 

### 21 **What does that mean? I mean** 

### 22 **aren't all sewers, you know, at some point**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 combined before they lead to a POTW?**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: No.** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: Combined sewer means** 

### 4 **industrial with sanitary.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. MAIT: So you've now mixed** 

### 7 **residential with industrial. That's what a** 

### 8 **combined sewer is.** 

### 9 **MR. TOBIAS: I mean that was true** 

### 10 **for some of the direct releases too. They** 

### 11 **would have -- their facility sanitary waste** 

### 12 **continued, their total waste treatment --** 

### 13 **isn't that's correct?** 

### 14 **MS. PLOTZKE: Well, not if they're** 

### 15 **direct.** 

### 16 **MR. TOBIAS: No, from the facility** 

### 17 **where the direct operator was. If that whole** 

### 18 **facility's waste went in their treatment so** 

### 19 **the toilets in the manufacturing plant, I mean** 

### 20 **the whole thing went to their remote permit** 

### 21 **release site. That's what I thought the** 

### 22 **emphasis on the direct was.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 MR. MAIT: An indirect site has a**  

### 2 **combined onsite. An indirect site where your** 

### 3 **sanitary and industrial are commingled before** 

### 4 **they're discharged in the POTW.** 

### 5 **So it's not a pure -- normally --** 

### 6 **it can be done different ways. But if you** 

### 7 **combine sanitary with your industrial there** 

### 8 **are requirements for disinfection and so on** 

### 9 **that apply that requires a plant to do** 

### 10 **treatment prior to release.** 

### 11 **So, with that being said the sites** 

### 12 **we're suggesting are purely industrial** 

### 13 **effluent from manufacturing, not combined with** 

### 14 **the showers and the bathrooms and so on. That** 

### 15 **was also part of what we understood the** 

### 16 **criteria to be.** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: So, maybe I'm** 

### 18 **still not getting this. Okay, you have POTWs.** 

### 19 **Some of them are -- the indirect sites are** 

### 20 **receiving in the industrial a D4 wastewater** 

### 21 **stream. And they're also receiving streams** 

### 22 **from residential sources, right? So how is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 that different? How is that different than**  

### 2 **this combined sewer scenario?** 

### 3 **MR. AVCIN: Yes. I mean you're** 

### 4 **saying that all of the nine potential** 

### 5 **candidates on Table 2, none of those -- not in** 

### 6 **that situation?** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: But they must have** 

### 8 **residential components --** 

### 9 **MS. PLOTZKE: There is one that is** 

### 10 **on the list. So the TGI one is on the list.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: But, isn't the** 

### 12 **nature of any POTW that treats industrial** 

### 13 **wastewater, isn't that automatically a** 

### 14 **combined sewer? It comes down in a stream,** 

### 15 **right?** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: Not necessarily. I** 

### 17 **mean, so -- and then the other thing too is it** 

### 18 **depends on what's on the site. So, whether** 

### 19 **it's a pure manufacturing site versus** 

### 20 **basically combined with either other sites or** 

### 21 **residential areas.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay, but going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 back to the other plan -- it's a combined**  

### 2 **source. It has an industrial component in its** 

### 3 **wastewater it treats and it has a sanitary** 

### 4 **sewer.** 

### 5 **MS. PLOTZKE: Right.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Combined in the** 

### 7 **wastewater it treats. But isn't that the same** 

### 8 **circumstances any POTW -- that it treats in a** 

### 9 **direct discharge? That they have an** 

### 10 **industrial component and a sanitary component?** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: That's going into** 

### 12 **them, yes.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: All right, I'm** 

### 14 **still not getting something.** 

### 15 **MR. AVCIN: I know. Because I was** 

### 16 **thinking that all of those sites in Table 2,** 

### 17 **you know, with these multiple industries that** 

### 18 **are discharging into the -- there's** 

### 19 **uncertainty there that you would naturally** 

### 20 **think they're going to be non-industrial** 

### 21 **contributions to the levels.** 

### 22 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, we can go back**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 and take a look at it and see.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: I'm trying to** 

### 3 **figure out if it's just a misunderstanding on** 

### 4 **my part. I just don't understand. Isn't any** 

### 5 **POTW that treats industrial wastewater and** 

### 6 **residential wastewater basically treating a** 

### 7 **combined sewer?** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: Well, normally your** 

### 9 **sanitary is handled separately. You don't** 

### 10 **normally mix -- if you have an industrial** 

### 11 **effluent they usually have two sewer systems.** 

### 12 **You know, I have an industrial sewer system** 

### 13 **that manages the industrial waste. You don't** 

### 14 **typically want to combine that with domestic** 

### 15 **waste because then you're essentially having** 

### 16 **to go through a disinfection process on** 

### 17 **industrial waste that's unnecessary.** 

### 18 **MR. FLACK: But then they will get** 

### 19 **combined to be a common outflow.** 

### 20 **MR. MAIT: Common outflow.** 

### 21 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: So influent to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 site, you typically have the sanitary**  

### 2 **wastewater plant here, the industrial bypasses** 

### 3 **that. Then there's a combined process** 

### 4 **someplace later. So you now have them mixed.** 

### 5 **MR. PENBERTHY: And the combined** 

### 6 **sewer systems, that's when --** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: It's combined** 

### 8 **beforehand.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. FLACK: And don't forget** 

### 11 **storm. That's also --** 

### 12 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: Oh, that part of** 

### 14 **the combined?** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: Yes.** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: And your various --** 

### 17 **MR. MAIT: But we can go back and** 

### 18 **look at their criteria that they used in that.** 

### 19 **That's not a problem.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. And then** 

### 21 **the other one, the Midland plant that** 

### 22 **discharged to private treatment plant.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: That's correct.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: So what does that** 

### 3 **precisely mean?** 

### 4 **MS. PLOTZKE: Privately owned** 

### 5 **wastewater treatment plant.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: So, but it's not a** 

### 7 **Dow-owned wastewater?** 

### 8 **MS. PLOTZKE: No.** 

### 9 **MR. LEWIS: And what does the** 

### 10 **discharge look like?** 

### 11 **MS. PLOTZKE: Not very sure where** 

### 12 **it goes into -- not sure which one of the** 

### 13 **municipal it goes to -- oh, you mean also** 

### 14 **where --** 

### 15 **MR. LEWIS: Discharge to a** 

### 16 **processing plant so where they take their --** 

### 17 **18 MR. PENBERTHY: So, I guess my question would**  

### 19 **be is it -- well, privately owned.** 

### 20 **MR. MAIT: It's not a POTW.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. MAIT: It's not publicly**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 owned.**  

### 2 **MS. PLOTZKE: It's not a publicly** 

### 3 **owned.** 

### 4 **MR. MAIT: That's a privately** 

### 5 **owned.** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: But is it in its** 

### 7 **operation operated similarly.** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: Technologies are** 

### 9 **probably not --** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: Are they similar?** 

### 11 **MR. MAIT: -- standard. They're** 

### 12 **not doing anything special.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: In other words, is** 

### 14 **it equivalent to a POTW treatment method? Do** 

### 15 **you follow?** 

### 16 **MS. PLOTZKE: I don't know.** 

### 17 **Randy, are you -- is Randy on the line,** 

### 18 **Debbie, with you?** 

### 19 **DR. MCNETT: Yes, he is.** 

### 20 **MS. PLOTZKE: Okay. Do you know** 

### 21 **what the treatment process is at the** 

### 22 **privately owned?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 RANDY: I believe there's some**  

### 2 **activated sludge, but there are probably** 

### 3 **other methods too, so I couldn't say for** 

### 4 **certain.** 

### 5 **MR. MAIT: The contractor could** 

### 6 **have just as easily got it from a -- on the** 

### 7 **issue of public versus private.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: I appreciate that.** 

### 9 **I've got a little private word on it. So,** 

### 10 **from this list, you know, you have -- I mean** 

### 11 **irrespective of dilution factor, the Evonik** 

### 12 **site would be fine. And I guess we have to** 

### 13 **figure out if a combined sewer is an issue or** 

### 14 **not.** 

### 15 **And then if the Midland plant** 

### 16 **wastewater treatment is operated similar to a** 

### 17 **POTW I don't think that's necessarily an** 

### 18 **issue. And so the value of those sites would** 

### 19 **be --** 

### 20 **MS. SMITH: Well, just for a** 

### 21 **moment -- there are going to be access** 

### 22 **issues.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 MS. PLOTZKE: Yes, there's --**  

### 2 **MS. SMITH: -- privately owned.** 

### 3 **MS. PLOTZKE: Yes. There's not** 

### 4 **going to be --** 

### 5 **MS. SMITH: You would have to get** 

### 6 **--** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. I** 

### 8 **appreciate that.** 

### 9 **MS. PLOTZKE: Completely different** 

### 10 **situation on access.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. I can** 

### 12 **understand that. And then, but the value of** 

### 13 **including those would be is there's a known** 

### 14 **source. I mean, there's confidence. Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. AVCIN: Do you all have a** 

### 16 **diluting factor -- was for your plant,** 

### 17 **Russell?** 

### 18 **MR. MAIT: Well, actually I** 

### 19 **should. Off the top of my head I don't know.** 

### 20 **I thought the cutoff -- I don't believe we're** 

### 21 **off the table.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Aren't they in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 table?**  

### 2 **MR. MAIT: It was not something I** 

### 3 **--** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: Because I thought** 

### 5 **I saw it in the table. How much was it?** 

### 6 **MS. PLOTZKE: 125.** 

### 7 **MR. MAIT: Yes, I couldn't** 

### 8 **remember. I knew it was a double digit but I** 

### 9 **couldn't remember what it was. I mean, James** 

### 10 **River is a big river.** 

### 11 **MR. NGUYEN: Could you walk us** 

### 12 **through this flow diagram? Especially** 

### 13 **focusing on the lower portion.** 

### 14 **MR. THOMAS: What's that again?** 

### 15 **MR. NGUYEN: The D4 flow chart.** 

### 16 **MR. THOMAS: And you said** 

### 17 **specifically focusing on the --** 

### 18 **MR. NGUYEN: After the POTW is** 

### 19 **contacted.** 

### 20 **MR. THOMAS: Right, right. Well,** 

### 21 **that's where it got from less systematic** 

### 22 **because, you know, at that point they're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 relying on responses they got from the POTWs**  

### 2 **that they contacted and whether or not they** 

### 3 **got a response.** 

### 4 **So right after the POTWs contacted** 

### 5 **you got qualified -- a number of qualified** 

### 6 **POTWS. Essentially eight of those are the** 

### 7 **industrial POTWs and six would be the POTWs** 

### 8 **with greater than 15 percent. So I guess the** 

### 9 **ones on the left here, these are intended to** 

### 10 **be what I'll call the residential POTWs** 

### 11 **because they had less than 15 percent** 

### 12 **industrial influent. And then these on the** 

### 13 **right would be the industrial POTWs.** 

### 14 **It's a little confusing here** 

### 15 **because of this 14 here, 8 of them go to the** 

### 16 **residential and there are essentially 6 left** 

### 17 **that go to the industrial. But the number** 

### 18 **here you see is 18 because they got an** 

### 19 **additional 12 from that box over on the** 

### 20 **right. And that's based on the conversations** 

### 21 **they had with the POTW operators.** 

### 22 **So before in the text they mention**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 that after the NAICS where they tried to**  

### 2 **figure out all of those, then they tried to** 

### 3 **select them separately by a search that they** 

### 4 **did by company. There was a search by those** 

### 5 **with pre-treatment permits. Then they also** 

### 6 **had a number of selection POTWs. So that's** 

### 7 **from those discussions and those separate** 

### 8 **surveys that they did to try to figure out on** 

### 9 **the industrial side to make sure they got a** 

### 10 **representative sampling.** 

### 11 **So this 14 number is actually 6** 

### 12 **plus 12. It's 6 plus the 12 that were** 

### 13 **identified in this box over here on the** 

### 14 **right.** 

### 15 **MR. NGUYEN: Going back to the** 

### 16 **combined sewer. What was the thinking for** 

### 17 **excluding due to that reason?** 

### 18 **MR. DOYLE: Well, I think we're** 

### 19 **going to have to go back and do a further** 

### 20 **verification on that. I think the main point** 

### 21 **there would probably be that the other** 

### 22 **indirect discharge facility they were talking**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 about, the effluent flow was thought to be**  

### 2 **just a process wastewater effluent flow to be** 

### 3 **monitored. By contrast that facility because** 

### 4 **it has all the other flows combined with it,** 

### 5 **if you think of the different natures --** 

### 6 **You're right, ultimately when you** 

### 7 **get to the POTW, realistically there's lots** 

### 8 **of different flows coming in. There's going** 

### 9 **to be different streams. But in terms of** 

### 10 **looking at how that effluent nature of it** 

### 11 **compares to the other ones, mixing apples and** 

### 12 **oranges. So that's -- I think that was --** 

### 13 **MS. PLOTZKE: And it will all come** 

### 14 **in together from storm, from the residential.** 

### 15 **It's not separate. It's not a separate** 

### 16 **discharge going to that wastewater treatment** 

### 17 **plant.** 

### 18 **MR. MAIT: But we can clarify** 

### 19 **that.** 

### 20 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Could you** 

### 21 **explain your thinking about the 15 percent?** 

### 22 **Where that comes from and why you used that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 for distinguishing between the residential**  

### 2 **and industrial.** 

### 3 **MR. THOMAS: I thought we got that** 

### 4 **from EPA. I mean I thought for the** 

### 5 **residential POTWs you guys had asked us to** 

### 6 **try to make sure we choose sites that would** 

### 7 **see less than 15 percent of their influent** 

### 8 **from industrial sources or industrial users** 

### 9 **of D4. Did we get that wrong?** 

### 10 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think we might** 

### 11 **have said 10. Effluent POTW shows as being** 

### 12 **less than 10 percent for the industrial** 

### 13 **facility.** 

### 14 **MR. MAIT: I think at this point** 

### 15 **one of the problems that ERM was having was** 

### 16 **to refine it down to, you know, without** 

### 17 **getting fully engaged with the sites to get** 

### 18 **it down, is it really 10 percent. That was** 

### 19 **the problem.** 

### 20 **MR. FLACK: I think that was a** 

### 21 **number that people felt comfortable they** 

### 22 **could make a representation that it was less**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 than that.**  

### 2 **MR. MAIT: It was more or less** 

### 3 **when they interviewed the POTW operators they** 

### 4 **weren't really willing to commit on record** 

### 5 **that it was less than 10. Fifteen they were** 

### 6 **comfortable with.** 

### 7 **MR. LEWIS: And is there a** 

### 8 **threshold in terms of population served of** 

### 9 **how they made it up?** 

### 10 **MR. MAIT: That was up at the -- I** 

### 11 **think they made it at greater than 60,000.** 

### 12 **MR. LEWIS: Right. And what was** 

### 13 **the rationale for that? Because in our ECA** 

### 14 **we didn't -- we didn't -- spoke qualitatively** 

### 15 **about that, not qualitatively.** 

### 16 **MR. MAIT: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. LEWIS: So I'm just curious** 

### 18 **how that --** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: I actually don't recall** 

### 20 **how they picked that. I think --** 

### 21 **MR. LEWIS: No, no, because I know** 

### 22 **we discussed this before with Russell when we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 talked about a certain population.**  

### 2 **MR. MAIT: Right.** 

### 3 **MR. LEWIS: Looking at a** 

### 4 **threshold. I was curious how you picked** 

### 5 **60,000.** 

### 6 **MR. FLACK: Well, it says larger** 

### 7 **population. So they picked --** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: I guess they figured 60** 

### 9 **is big.** 

### 10 **MR. FLACK: If you've got a number** 

### 11 **you'd like to use.** 

### 12 **MR. LEWIS: No. I'm curious of** 

### 13 **how they selected that.** 

### 14 **MS. PLOTZKE: I thought there was** 

### 15 **some classification in one of the databases.** 

### 16 **MR. MAIT: Was there? There may** 

### 17 **actually --** 

### 18 **MS. PLOTZKE: That may be --** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: I just don't know.** 

### 20 **MS. PLOTZKE: I thought there was.** 

### 21 **I thought there were some categories they're** 

### 22 **defining in the databases.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 MR. LEWIS: We did specify in**  

### 2 **terms of industrial waste but we didn't do** 

### 3 **that in terms of populations.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: And then we had** 

### 5 **the NACWA sites which are potential** 

### 6 **candidates. That didn't trip out in your** 

### 7 **Table 3, is that how that works?** 

### 8 **MR. THOMAS: They weren't able to** 

### 9 **get a hold of any of those sites to confirm** 

### 10 **those things that you can't get in the** 

### 11 **publicly available information.** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: So when you look** 

### 13 **at the POTWs not treating -- that aren't** 

### 14 **indirect sites, you look at Table 3 and Table** 

### 15 **4 as potential candidates, right?** 

### 16 **MR. THOMAS: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: So that possibly** 

### 18 **maybe would just be -- because that's not a** 

### 19 **very -- okay.** 

### 20 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: So I think** 

### 21 **going back to the 15 percent. So that was** 

### 22 **really just a verbal estimate from the POTW.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 MR. THOMAS: And during the**  

### 2 **further refinement we can certainly get a** 

### 3 **sense for how close we can get to that 10** 

### 4 **percent. Because that's something we have to** 

### 5 **get confirmation from the POTW operators.** 

### 6 **There may be some that actually have that.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: So it sounds like** 

### 8 **we have to do some confirmation step to make** 

### 9 **sure that Table 1, there is a D4 source being** 

### 10 **treated. And then Table 3 and 4 that there** 

### 11 **isn't as far as anybody knows a D4 source.** 

### 12 **MR. THOMAS: Right.** 

### 13 **MR. MAIT: I think this was sort** 

### 14 **of a suggestion list of facilities for the** 

### 15 **purposes of discussion. It wasn't these are** 

### 16 **the ones we selected. So the idea would be** 

### 17 **have enough flexibility that we have a** 

### 18 **candidate list as they drop out for whatever** 

### 19 **criteria, that we're not stuck having to** 

### 20 **start the process all over again. So these** 

### 21 **are good candidate sites.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 MR. MAIT: They're not absolutes.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: And I wouldn't even** 

### 4 **characterize them as the best sites because** 

### 5 **obviously we didn't have infinite time to** 

### 6 **contact all of these facilities. It was** 

### 7 **those that were responsive.** 

### 8 **MR. FLACK: And back to the** 

### 9 **percentages. We said 15 percent or less. Do** 

### 10 **you have scientific data really saying why** 

### 11 **you wanted 10 percent? Or was that sort of a** 

### 12 **sway too and at the end of the day where do** 

### 13 **we go, 13? Or something?** 

### 14 **MR. MAIT: I think the academic** 

### 15 **discussion was can we really find sites with** 

### 16 **such a low threshold of industrial influents.** 

### 17 **MR. FLACK: Right. You can see** 

### 18 **how much they got screened out just with --** 

### 19 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes. That's my** 

### 20 **major uncertainty here is how do you find a** 

### 21 **right -- how do you identify the right** 

### 22 **candidates out of Table 1. And then Table 2.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 MR. MAIT: What do you mean by**  

### 2 **right though?** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, how do you** 

### 4 **ensure that there is a D4. You have to have** 

### 5 **that qualifying --** 

### 6 **MR. MAIT: Well, if I -- if we** 

### 7 **give our contractor the charge to go talk** 

### 8 **with the POTWs and then with the cooperation** 

### 9 **of NACWA because most of these folks are** 

### 10 **members of. With that level of cooperation** 

### 11 **then we should get cooperation through the** 

### 12 **operator who can make that solicitation under** 

### 13 **their current authority to ask. Because the** 

### 14 **POTW operator has the authority to ask that** 

### 15 **question. We don't necessarily have that** 

### 16 **authority.** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. MAIT: So if we get an** 

### 19 **affirmative and with the adjustments in the** 

### 20 **additional criteria we've talked about here I** 

### 21 **think we can get down to a more confirmatory** 

### 22 **list of places. Because I think we'd want to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 start from the standpoint of this being --**  

### 2 **we've identified the sites.** 

### 3 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 4 **MR. MAIT: Because that will** 

### 5 **influence, again, how we develop our plan of** 

### 6 **execution for the study plans and so on.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. So, what we** 

### 8 **need to do is take a look at -- clean up the** 

### 9 **Appendix 2 language.** 

### 10 **How do we want -- we have to** 

### 11 **figure out how we would do the qualification** 

### 12 **on the industrial influent ones on Table --** 

### 13 **well, the Table 1 sites. How do we -- what** 

### 14 **are the questions?** 

### 15 **It seems to me those are similar** 

### 16 **questions you'd want to ask of the Table 3** 

### 17 **and Table 4.** 

### 18 **MR. MAIT: Well, I think, Cathy,** 

### 19 **you already asked for what questions we were** 

### 20 **going to -- what we asked already. So, we** 

### 21 **could certainly amend that to add the** 

### 22 **additional questions that would be answered.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 Whether it's done by survey or not. That's a**  

### 2 **question that you have and those would be the** 

### 3 **questions we'd have to answer.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Do we have** 

### 5 **other? We're getting -- we're just adjusting** 

### 6 **for this so we're going to have to talk** 

### 7 **internally here about how to respond.** 

### 8 **MR. MAIT: And also, if there's** 

### 9 **information internally within the agency that** 

### 10 **gives more insight into this specifically,** 

### 11 **because all these sites are permitted, that** 

### 12 **would be helpful.** 

### 13 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay. Yes. It** 

### 14 **seems like the Table 3 sites, you know, all** 

### 15 **that is making sense to me. I'm more** 

### 16 **uncertain about the Table 1 process.** 

### 17 **And then, oh, the other thing** 

### 18 **we've got to figure out is from your member** 

### 19 **company list are there ones that we would** 

### 20 **want to include just irrespective of Table 1.** 

### 21 **MR. MAIT: Well, I would go on the** 

### 22 **basis that Appendix 2 would reflect the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 criteria for selection. And that would allow**  

### 2 **the screening in or screening out of members,** 

### 3 **of those facilities that were excluded from** 

### 4 **Table 1 to begin with, right? Because** 

### 5 **otherwise you sort of --** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: You know, I** 

### 7 **understand the sentiment, but I attach a lot** 

### 8 **of value to the certainty that there's a** 

### 9 **wastewater release.** 

### 10 **MR. MAIT: Well, if I give you an** 

### 11 **answer from a POTW that affirms that that** 

### 12 **site has a facility that processes, how is it** 

### 13 **any different?** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: I guess it's not.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: To me it's consistently** 

### 16 **the same. I mean.** 

### 17 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. DOYLE: I think the key is** 

### 19 **just establishing those criteria that are in** 

### 20 **the Appendix 2.** 

### 21 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. DOYLE: So we can have a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 principal plan to go about identifying. And**  

### 2 **once we have that we can find it, screen it.** 

### 3 **MR. MAIT: Because my POTW would** 

### 4 **ask me the same question. I'd have to affirm** 

### 5 **it. Just like the other people who discharge** 

### 6 **to that facility, because I'm not the only** 

### 7 **guy.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. Okay. Do** 

### 9 **we have other comments? For now, I think we** 

### 10 **understand what you do. We've got to look at** 

### 11 **Appendix 2, make sure that language -- we've** 

### 12 **got to further evaluate this. There may be** 

### 13 **other sources of information we can help you** 

### 14 **with. I'm not certain of that.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: Right. So my** 

### 16 **understanding, if we change Appendix 2 we** 

### 17 **rerun the criteria.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. FLACK: If you've got a short** 

### 20 **list of candidates that you want to put out** 

### 21 **there, if we could find out that would be** 

### 22 **great. Then we don't spend the time**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 guessing.**  

### 2 **MR. MAIT: Because, I mean, there** 

### 3 **are 16 plus thousand sites to pick from. So** 

### 4 **it's not a matter of picking the best sites,** 

### 5 **you just have to pick sites that meet the** 

### 6 **criteria.** 

### 7 **MR. PENBERTHY: I guess where I** 

### 8 **started from and have changed my mind-set a** 

### 9 **little bit is that we started off with your** 

### 10 **direct sites and your indirect sites and then** 

### 11 **it turned -- evolved into can we substitute** 

### 12 **in other indirect sites. And I didn't really** 

### 13 **see a problem with that, you know,** 

### 14 **necessarily.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: But nevertheless the** 

### 16 **criteria were still the same. Those sites** 

### 17 **would have been dropped out due to the fact** 

### 18 **that they don't meet the criteria that's** 

### 19 **listed in Appendix 2.** 

### 20 **MR. PENBERTHY: So we're going to** 

### 21 **have to talk through this on our side just to** 

### 22 **make sure we're all onboard.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 MR. MAIT: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. PENBERTHY: You guys have any** 

### 3 **other questions you need to have clarity on?** 

### 4 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Could I just** 

### 5 **ask -- and I apologize. I haven't had time** 

### 6 **to look through this report in detail. But** 

### 7 **could you tell us a little bit about the** 

### 8 **iSTREEM POTWs? Did you just look at the list** 

### 9 **of the POTWs in iSTREEM or did you do some** 

### 10 **cuts using the iSTREEM modeling approach?** 

### 11 **MR. THOMAS: I think the iSTREEM** 

### 12 **was more relevant for the residential POTWs.** 

### 13 **So if you look at page 8, section 3.0 where** 

### 14 **it talks about POTWs that received less than** 

### 15 **15 percent as their influents. So we're** 

### 16 **talking about the residential sites.** 

### 17 **They developed an initial list by** 

### 18 **searching the EPA Needs survey that had** 

### 19 **activated sludge. And then they narrowed the** 

### 20 **list. And then they used iSTREEM somewhere** 

### 21 **further down here. Yes, under 3.2, the** 

### 22 **second bullet they used that to target the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 population and the dilution factor.**  

### 2 **MR. DOYLE: I think the point** 

### 3 **being is that the iSTREEM list which is what** 

### 4 **we -- the iSTREEM model we used later in** 

### 5 **terms of -- it was used to do the refinement.** 

### 6 **That presented a subset of that initial** 

### 7 **16,000. Because I don't think that was** 

### 8 **necessarily in the iSTREEM database. I think** 

### 9 **that's the essence of it.** 

### 10 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay. So you** 

### 11 **used it to really narrow based on population** 

### 12 **and the low flow dilution factor.** 

### 13 **MR. DOYLE: Yes, I think that was** 

### 14 **the main point of it was because it provided** 

### 15 **a vehicle for getting at that data.** 

### 16 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: Okay, thank** 

### 17 **you.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Do you guys have** 

### 19 **any other inquiries?** 

### 20 **MR. THOMAS: So we have some** 

### 21 **homework to do for you.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: You know, it looks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 like you spent a lot of time on this and it**  

### 2 **seems a pretty valid, thoughtful approach.** 

### 3 **So we've at least got to look at it.** 

### 4 **MR. THOMAS: So do you have** 

### 5 **clarifying next steps?** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, those would** 

### 7 **be to -- so on my notes we are trying for the** 

### 8 **week of September 9. And my understanding** 

### 9 **was we were going to get second drafts of the** 

### 10 **test standards for addressing some of the** 

### 11 **discussion of the points.** 

### 12 **MR. DOYLE: I think the important** 

### 13 **thing for those is that we really do need** 

### 14 **that feedback from the agency on some of** 

### 15 **these other points. The detection limits and** 

### 16 **the samples -- or we're going to just shoot** 

### 17 **past each other.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: And I have -- we** 

### 19 **owe you for each test standard the detection** 

### 20 **limits that we're searching for. We have to** 

### 21 **-- to look into the GLP issue to see how do** 

### 22 **we handle that. Because I've got to believe**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 we've dealt with that before.**  

### 2 **We had an outstanding issue about** 

### 3 **variability and how we're going to do that,** 

### 4 **and whether -- I guess you had questions** 

### 5 **about its relevance. And so we're going to** 

### 6 **have to express ourselves on that.** 

### 7 **We're going to have to look at the** 

### 8 **TOC test method that's referenced. I think** 

### 9 **that's pretty straightforward. And I think** 

### 10 **that was -- did you all have anything else?** 

### 11 **MR. MAIT: Appendix 2.** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: Oh, Appendix 2,** 

### 13 **right. Of course. I'm thinking of from this** 

### 14 **morning.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: I'm sorry.** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: Appendix 2. And** 

### 17 **then we'll also have to do some further** 

### 18 **analysis of your report and search for maybe** 

### 19 **other potential data sources for you all to** 

### 20 **use.** 

### 21 **And then I think we were also** 

### 22 **going to do a little bit of research on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 deposition zone, how far downstream does the**  

### 2 **deposition --** 

### 3 **MR. DOYLE: How far is too far.** 

### 4 **MR. PENBERTHY: How far is too** 

### 5 **far.** 

### 6 **MR. DOYLE: And then I think also,** 

### 7 **too, you had the thing about the release** 

### 8 **point for biosolids.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right, right.** 

### 10 **MR. LEWIS: I think in that case** 

### 11 **how do you use it in the sediment approach.** 

### 12 **You said that document was looking at** 

### 13 **biosolids.** 

### 14 **MR. PENBERTHY: So, we have --** 

### 15 **obviously we'll be working on those. We'll** 

### 16 **have to get together. And we'll give you all** 

### 17 **some timing on that, but hopefully as quick** 

### 18 **as we can.** 

### 19 **MR. MAIT: Because we'd like to** 

### 20 **have that input to go with all the other --** 

### 21 **because what we'd like to get is essentially** 

### 22 **a final version that we're all -- all the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 companies have vetted through and can say**  

### 2 **that they're good with and it has some** 

### 3 **polishing to do in terms of making sure that** 

### 4 **the test standards are reconciled and with** 

### 5 **the appendices which are reconciled with the** 

### 6 **body of the text and all that kind of good** 

### 7 **stuff.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. LEWIS: One of the overarching** 

### 10 **issues also were the number of samples. I'm** 

### 11 **not sure we addressed that.** 

### 12 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think we know** 

### 13 **how much we --** 

### 14 **(Laughter.)** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: We understand. And the** 

### 16 **issue was under replicates.** 

### 17 **MR. LEWIS: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, the** 

### 19 **variability issue I think we have to weigh in** 

### 20 **on. Anybody else from EPA that noticed any** 

### 21 **outstanding issues other than this? Well,** 

### 22 **I'm just trying to figure out what the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 follow-up is for everybody. Okay.**  

### 2 **So we're going to be targeting for** 

### 3 **the week of September 9.** 

### 4 **MR. LEWIS: Do you want to also** 

### 5 **mention the one about the extension?** 

### 6 **MR. PENBERTHY: Oh yes.** 

### 7 **MR. LEWIS: Yes. You want to talk** 

### 8 **about that.** 

### 9 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, the** 

### 10 **negotiating period officially ends, I think** 

### 11 **it's either the 26th -- so we'll be extending** 

### 12 **that if you have any doubts. Hopefully we** 

### 13 **won't be needing many more of these** 

### 14 **extensions.** 

### 15 **MR. MAIT: Is that 60?** 

### 16 **MR. PENBERTHY: It's a 60-day** 

### 17 **increment.** 

### 18 **MR. MAIT: Okay, 60.** 

### 19 **MR. DOYLE: Ward, just to be** 

### 20 **clear, for the week of September 9, what's** 

### 21 **going to happen that week? In terms of --** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: Well, we're going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 to do our best to get back to you on all**  

### 2 **these items. I have to check with these guys** 

### 3 **in terms of their other workloads and stuff,** 

### 4 **but yes. That's the target for now.** 

### 5 **MR. DOYLE: And then -- because** 

### 6 **then we're going to need to take that and** 

### 7 **fold it into ours.** 

### 8 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right.** 

### 9 **MR. DOYLE: It's not going to be** 

### 10 **instantaneous.** 

### 11 **MR. PENBERTHY: Right. I know.** 

### 12 **MS. FEHRENBACHER: And some of** 

### 13 **these issues might take us longer than** 

### 14 **others. So it might be helpful to prioritize** 

### 15 **a bit. I would think that the detection** 

### 16 **limit would be maybe the highest priority in** 

### 17 **terms of us getting new input.** 

### 18 **MR. PENBERTHY: Yes, I think we'll** 

### 19 **try to get it to you piece by piece.** 

### 20 **MR. MAIT: Yes. I mean, certainly** 

### 21 **as soon as you get it.** 

### 22 **MR. PENBERTHY: I think we're also**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 going to want to look at all those appendices**  

### 2 **that, you know, there's a lot of work -- an** 

### 3 **investment of time and knowledge acquisition** 

### 4 **that has to take place there. I don't know** 

### 5 **how fast -- because there's thousands of** 

### 6 **pages.** 

### 7 **Any other questions? Well, thank** 

### 8 **you. Thank you for all the hard work too,** 

### 9 **particularly on the test standards. We're** 

### 10 **making progress.** 

### 11 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 12 **went off the record at 2:45 p.m.)** 

### 13 **14 15**  **16 17**  **18 19**  **20 21**  **22**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220 A able26:20 35:16

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211:13 82 3:16 9 9 63:13 79:9,15 102:12 213:8 217:3,20NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 245

Siloxanes Meeting

US EPA

08-21-13

Washington, DC