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97–267PDF 2015

AFRICA’S GREAT LAKES REGION: A SECURITY,

POLITICAL, AND HUMANITARIAN CHALLENGE

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH, 

GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND 

INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

OCTOBER 22, 2015

Serial No. 114–107

Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/ or

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/

(II)

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman 

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey 

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida 

DANA ROHRABACHER, California 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina 

MICHAEL T. MCCAUL, Texas 

TED POE, Texas 

MATT SALMON, Arizona 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 

JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina 

MO BROOKS, Alabama 

PAUL COOK, California 

RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas 

SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

TED S. YOHO, Florida 

CURT CLAWSON, Florida 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin 

DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan 

LEE M. ZELDIN, New York 

DANIEL DONOVAN, New York 

ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York 

ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

KAREN BASS, California 

WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

ALAN GRAYSON, Florida 

AMI BERA, California 

ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California 

GRACE MENG, New York 

LOIS FRANKEL, Florida 

TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii 

JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania

AMY PORTER, Chief of Staff THOMAS SHEEHY, Staff Director

JASON STEINBAUM, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH, GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND

INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, Chairman 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

CURT CLAWSON, Florida 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

DANIEL DONOVAN, New York 

KAREN BASS, California 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

AMI BERA, California 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Page

WITNESSES 

The Honorable Linda Thomas-Greenfield, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of African Affairs, U.S. Department of State ............................................................... 4

The Honorable Thomas Perriello, Special Envoy for the Great Lakes Region 

of Africa, U.S. Department of State .................................................................... 22

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

The Honorable Linda Thomas-Greenfield: Prepared statement .......................... 7

The Honorable Thomas Perriello: Prepared statement ........................................ 26

APPENDIX 

Hearing notice .......................................................................................................... 60

Hearing minutes ...................................................................................................... 61

(1)

AFRICA’S GREAT LAKES REGION: 

A SECURITY, POLITICAL, AND 

HUMANITARIAN CHALLENGE 

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 22, 2015

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA, GLOBAL HEALTH,

GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS, AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,

Washington, DC. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:03 p.m., in room 

2200 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Christopher H. Smith 

(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Mr. SMITH. The subcommittee will come to order and thank you 

to our very highly distinguished witnesses for being here and for 

taking the time to provide your insights and counsel to this subcommittee. 

Ladies and gentlemen, to state that the Great Lakes region of Africa is troubled would be an understatement. Burundi is experiencing continued turmoil due to a recent contentious election. The 

Democratic Republic of the Congo, or DRC, has had some level of 

conflict since the late 1990s. The Lord’s Resistance Army, also 

known as the LRA, has plagued several of these countries. Alleged 

plundering of DRC resources by Rwanda and Uganda has never 

been fully resolved. Nations in the region have been preoccupied in 

the last 2 years with resolving the South Sudanese Civil War. 

Definitions vary, but the Great Lakes region, as defined by the 

U.S. Department of State, comprises Burundi, DRC, Rwanda, and 

Uganda. The region is among the most densely populated in Africa, 

especially around Lake Victoria, and enjoys rich agricultural potential, water resources, minerals, and wildlife. However, political instability, conflict, humanitarian crises, and lack of development remain key challenges. 

These four countries are the purview of the U.S. Special Envoy 

to the Great Lakes, Tom Perriello, who we are delighted to have 

here today, a former Member of the House and a former member 

of the committee I served on for years and that is the Veterans Affairs Committee. So Tom, thank you for being here. 

We also have Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, an 

expert in the field, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, who has spent a 

great deal of her time in office dealing with the Great Lakes and 

a great deal of time on the road. It has been hard to get you up 

here, but I know, as you said just a moment ago, you have been 

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spending 3 weeks out of four on the road and that is very commendable on your part to spend so much time working on these 

issues. 

Today’s hearing offers an opportunity to hear from these top administration officials, not only about continuing U.S. efforts to extinguish the LRA threat, but also the administration’s work with 

governments in the region on issues such as peace building, governance, and adherence to internationally recognized human rights 

and democracy. 

In our subcommittee hearings over the last 3 years, we have uncovered numerous troubling situations. Even with the supposed 

end of the operations by M23 militia, an issue in DRC, in late 

2013, there are several other militias still causing instability in the 

region. The Kabila government in the DRC reportedly is using a 

ban on completing foreign adoptions as leverage to ward off actions 

to prevent him from prolonging in his rule, despite a constitutional 

bar to any reelection bid. 

The Burundian President’s decision to run for a third term, 

which some Burundians and outside observers viewed as a violation of a landmark peace agreement and arguably the Constitution 

of Burundi, has led to a political crisis and heightened concerns 

about regional stability. 

Human rights abuses in Rwanda were found to be targeted toward real or perceived political opponents prior to 2012, but after 

2012, such abuses were seen as more random, expanding the targets of the regime. Major Robert Higiro, a retired Rwandan military officer, told our subcommittee on May 20th about his solicitation by the Rwandan intelligence chief to kill high-level defectors. 

He turned against the government and informed the targets who 

asked him to record the offer. He did, and the recording was validated by the Globe and Mail in Canada and the British Broadcasting Corporation, the BBC. The State Department has not only 

found the allegation to be credible but warned Major Higiro to 

leave Belgium where his life was in danger. 

Although LRA killings have diminished in the past few years, 

kidnappings by the group have risen as it operates in smaller, scattered cells using more adults as temporary labor. One witness at 

our hearing last month said an end to the U.S. support for the 

counter-LRA effort would be ‘‘devastating,’’ I believe the administration will continue that counter-LRA effort and that is encouraging. 

We have heard of the difficulties of addressing issues in this 

troubled region of Africa by both governments and private witnesses over the last few years, however, the fates of these countries 

are interconnected and our policies need to take that into account. 

I would like to yield to Mr. Cicilline for any opening comments 

he might have. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for 

calling this hearing today and to our distinguished witnesses for 

being here to share your experiences and recommendations for U.S. 

policy toward this region. 

When I think of the Great Lakes region in Africa what so often 

comes to mind is the incredible conflict and suffering that the region has experienced in recent decades. The wars in Burundi and 

3

DRC and genocide in Rwanda unleash true horrors upon the population. But despite their troubled past, the countries of the Great 

Lakes region, Burundi, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, 

Rwanda, and Uganda have made some progress. Peace accords restored a semblance of stability to Burundi and the DRC. Rwanda 

has become an example in terms of economic development of the 

region. Uganda has experienced relative peace and stability. 

I recently visited Rwanda and had the opportunity to see some 

of this progress first-hand; however, there remain great challenges 

to regional stability and for the forward progress of these countries. 

Public health issues, violence against women, HIV/AIDS, and food 

security remain challenges throughout the region. Moreover, leaders in Burundi, DRC, and Rwanda have indicated reluctance to 

allow for peaceful transitions of power. Burundi President Pierre 

Nkurunziza’s decision to run for a third term in contravention of 

the Arusha Accords is very troubling as are indications that the 

Presidents of the DRC and Rwanda may attempt to circumvent 

term limits in their own countries. President Museveni has ruled 

Uganda since 1986. 

I firmly believe that further economic development of these countries and improvements in their health, safety, and food security 

will be directly tied to their acceptance of free and fair democratic 

process. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today as to how 

Congress can encourage these countries to maintain a democratic 

trajectory. And with that, I yield back and thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SMITH. I would like to yield to Mark Meadows. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for continuing to make humanitarian relief a focus of this subcommittee 

on a regular basis and for me, it is very gratifying to have both of 

you here to testify today. We look forward to hearing not only your 

expert testimony, but how we can go beyond a hearing and make 

an impact in countries that most Americans would have a hard 

time finding on a map. 

We see the devastation. We hear the stories, but they are headlines and they are far away. And we need to do a better job as 

Members of Congress, but we also need to do a better job of highlighting those areas where we can make a difference. So I look forward to hearing from both of you on perhaps two things that we 

are doing well, but two things that we need drastic improvement 

on and that way we can have actionable items. And with that, I 

will yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much, Mr. Meadows. I would like to 

introduce our two distinguished witnesses, beginning first with 

Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield, a member of the career Foreign Service who was sworn in on August 6, 2013 as the Assistant 

Secretary for African Affairs. Prior to assuming her current position, she led a team of about 400 employees who carried out personnel functions for the State Department’s 70,000 strong work 

force. 

Since beginning her Foreign Service career in 1982, I note parenthetically, a year after I came to Congress, she has risen through 

the ranks to the Minister Counselor level, serving in Jamaica, NiVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:09 Nov 18, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_AGH\102215\97267 SHIRL
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geria, The Gambia, Kenya, Pakistan, and at the U.S. Mission to 

the United Nations, and most recently as Ambassador to Liberia 

where she served from 2008 to 2012. 

Then we will hear from the Honorable Thomas Perriello, Special 

Envoy for the Great Lakes Region of Africa. He previously served 

as Special Representative for the Quadrennial Diplomacy and Development Review and also served as a Congressman from Virginia. And I would note also that he served on the House Committee on Veterans’ Affairs and I thank him for that service. I 

served on that committee as well. He was also a Special Advisor 

to the Prosecutor of the Special Court for Sierra Leone, an extremely effective court that was led by David Crane, as we all 

know, and ultimately secured a major conviction and that was of 

Charles Taylor, who got 50 years for the atrocities that he unleashed upon the people in Sierra Leone and Liberia. 

He has also served as CEO of the Center for American Progress 

Action. He has worked and conducted research in a dozen countries 

and taught courses on transitional justice at the University of Virginia’s School of Law and the University of Sierra Leone. 

Outside of government, Mr. Perriello has co-founded and managed justice entrepreneurship platforms and faith-based organizations advancing human rights, poverty reduction, and sustainability. 

Madam Ambassador, the floor is yours. 

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE LINDA THOMAS–GREENFIELD, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF AFRICAN AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. Thank you very much, Chairman Smith and thanks to the other members of the subcommittee 

for the opportunity to testify today on the many challenges facing 

the central African region. I am honored to testify here today with 

Special Envoy to the Great Lakes Region of Africa, Tom Perriello, 

one of your former colleagues. 

The Department and the Bureau of African Affairs, in particular, 

greatly appreciates the bipartisan support we continue to receive 

for our work, for our Embassies, and for our people who spend 

every single day striving to promote our national security, foreign 

policy, and economic interests on the continent of Africa. 

In the central African region, particularly in the countries of 

Rwanda, Burundi, the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), 

the Republic of Congo, our efforts to strengthen democratic institutions, spur economic growth, advance peace and security, and promote opportunity and development have borne fruit. However, the 

progress made in this region is fragile and it is at great risk, as 

you both described in your remarks. In fact, this is the region that 

I am most concerned about as it is way out of step of the progression that the rest of continent is making. 

I know that you are interested in our continuing efforts to combat the Lord’s Resistance Army, also known as the LRA, and I am 

pleased to report that we actually have had some good success 

there, in fact, great success working through our regional partners, 

notably Uganda and the African Union. The Central African Republic, despite intense conflicts in that country, the Democratic ReVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:09 Nov 18, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_AGH\102215\97267 SHIRL
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public of the Congo with its political issues, South Sudan at war 

with itself, all have actively provided assistance to us in countering 

the LRA. Over 270 people have either defected, escaped, or been released since 2012. Four of the five top commanders are in The 

Hague. The number of people killed by the LRA has dropped by 90 

percent since 2010 when 365 were killed and we have had 19 killed 

since June 30, 2015. Even that is too many, but it is a significant 

decrease. 

These numbers make it clear that our strategy is working, but 

Joseph Kony is still commanding the remnants of the LRA and 

until he is brought to justice we remain committed to finishing the 

work that we have started. 

President Obama’s July speech to the African Union in Addis 

Ababa where he addressed the critical issue of democratic transition including term limits, respect for constitutions, and the peaceful transfer of leadership, has resonated resoundingly on the continent. The core principles the President elaborated are the cornerstone of our engagement with leaders whose time in office should 

be coming to an end. And note that I said ‘‘should.’’ Over the next 

2 years, each of the countries in this region has faced or will face 

the opportunity to realize a true democratic transfer of power. Yet, 

in each of these countries, that agreed-upon process is in doubt. 

The leaders of these nations have been making fateful decisions 

whether or not to abide by their previous commitments, respect the 

rule of law and their constitutions, and responsibly build a foundation of peaceful, elected, democratic leadership and transition. 

In Burundi, President Nkurunziza’s pursuit of a third term 

caused the current volatile political crisis. Prevailing circumstances 

have forced over 200,000 Burundians to flee into neighboring countries since April and many of those attempting to flee have reported violent confrontations by party militias and police. Special 

Envoy Perriello just returned from the region and will provide 

more context on our current efforts there. 

While the Republic of Congo is outside our definition of the Great 

Lakes region, it impacts it and is affected by similar situations as 

elsewhere in the region. President Sassou Nguesso’s decision to call 

for a popular referendum on a proposed new constitution is deeply 

troubling and has created a volatile situation that could spiral beyond the government’s control with tragic results. And as I speak 

today, the current situation in the country is very, very tense. 

I now turn to circumstances across the Congo River in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Before I get into the electoral and security situations I would like to assure you, the Members of Congress, and any of your constituents who are anxiously waiting to 

bring their adopted children home, that we remain closely engaged 

with DRC officials at the highest levels to lift the ban on exit permits for the hundreds of legally-adopted children who are unable 

to join their new families and we will not cease in our efforts until 

all of these cases are resolved. 

On the political front, we remain deeply concerned by the situation in DRC. President Kabila’s final term is due to end in December 2016. Efforts by the President to amend the constitution or 

guarantee electoral delays have been vigorously resisted, even by 

some of his own majority in the DRC Parliament and certainly by 

6

his citizens. Tom has also just concluded a visit from that country 

and he will go into more details on our analysis and our approach 

to the situation, but I must note that at this time I don’t see that 

DRC is yet at a precipice. President Kabila faces a choice. He can 

establish a tradition of peaceful transition of power for his country 

or he can set back the significant progress that he himself has 

made during his tenure by trying to stay in office beyond his term. 

Finally, on Rwanda, the United States has been a strong partner 

with Rwanda. While it has been making significant and commendable strides in spurring economic growth and promoting development following the devastating 1994 genocide, we continue to encourage Rwanda to demonstrate significantly greater respect for 

human rights and democratic principles. Thus, I have to admit we 

were very disappointed when the Rwandan Government established a constitutional reform commission that has recommended 

removing executive term limits that would permit President 

Kagame to seek a third term in 2017 and we have urged him 

against this. 

Chairman Smith and members of the subcommittee, I want to 

thank you again for holding this hearing and giving us the opportunity to discuss our extensive engagement in the region. I hope 

that the information that we share with you today, as well as with 

the audience here, is helpful. I look forward to answering all of 

your questions as I know Tom will. 

[The prepared statement of Ambassador Thomas-Greenfield follows:]

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Mr. SMITH. Madam Ambassador, thank you very, very much. 

I would like to now yield the floor to Special Envoy Perriello. 

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE THOMAS PERRIELLO, SPECIAL ENVOY FOR THE GREAT LAKES REGION OF AFRICA, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE 

Mr. PERRIELLO. Chairman Smith, and members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for the invitation to testify today 

and for your unwavering interest in the comprehensive efforts to 

support peace, democracy, and development in the Great Lakes region. I am honored to be back on Capitol Hill to have this opportunity to serve and to get to testify here today with one of the true 

all-stars of the foreign service, Assistant Secretary Linda ThomasGreenfield. 

As she outlined, we greatly appreciate the broad support from 

Capitol Hill for our engagement, our values, our programs and our 

Embassies in the region. After decades of instability, and of international investment in peace, the next 2 years will determine much 

about the future of the Great Lakes region. The run-up to elections 

in the Republic of Congo, the DRC, Rwanda, and Uganda, and the 

ensuing crisis from Burundi’s discredited elections, will determine 

much about whether the region will reap the benefits of decades of 

investments in security and democracy or rather trade in that 

hard-fought progress for the entrenchment of individual leaders. It 

is for this reason that I am focusing my testimony today on these 

upcoming elections and our efforts to support them, although I will 

be more than happy to answer questions on other issues afterwards. 

The crisis in Burundi is a prime example of what happens when 

an individual clings to power at the expense of his country. President Nkurunziza’s decision to stand for a third term and violate 

the Arusha agreement has triggered a complex and dire crisis. 

Months of government repression, a failed coup attempt, discredited elections, tit-for-tat assassinations, and a mounting humanitarian crisis leave Burundi facing a shorter and shorter fuse. 

Open political space has been all but eliminated in Burundi, creating an environment of intimidation and fear where daily violence 

and assassinations have become the norm. Much of the violence is 

reportedly carried out at the hands of state security services in the 

Imbonerakure, the armed wing of the ruling party’s youth militia, 

but also by groups aligned with different political parties acting in 

retaliation. Their actions risk an expanded civil war as well as 

state failure. 

While Burundi’s past conflicts have been marked by horrific ethnic massacres, the current crisis has thus far avoided this element. 

However, we worry with continued instability the risk for the conflict to take on an ethnic component grows. Perhaps most pressing, 

Burundi’s economy is in free fall which will continue to exacerbate 

the suffering of the Burundian people, already among the world’s 

poorest, many of whom suffered from malnutrition even before the 

crisis. 

We generally support regional leadership in resolving conflicts. 

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try’s term limit provisions are watching Burundi out of their own 

self-interest. Those supporting Nkurunziza also argue that our 

focus on term limits comes at the expense of stability. But the facts 

prove quite the opposite. Regular, democratic transitions of power 

are in the best interests of a country’s stability. No credible observer thinks Burundi would not be better off if Nkurunziza had 

allowed constitutional elections to proceed. The international community would be talking about targeted investments, not targeted 

sanctions. We would be talking about Burundi as a model, not as 

a cautionary tale. 

There are also broader geopolitical dynamics in play here. Some 

countries side with Burundi’s Government because they believe the 

instability is being driven not by legitimate discontent by Burundians, but by Rwanda’s support for the opposition. This is reviving 

historic geopolitical fault lines and risks holding back regional consensus on next steps to resolve the crisis. We encourage Rwanda, 

Tanzania, and all neighboring countries to be a force for peaceful 

resolution. 

We believe that an inclusive, immediate, and internationally-mediated dialogue amongst Burundian stakeholders under EAC and 

AU leadership is the best route to resolve this crisis. We were 

heartened to see strong leadership and consensus at the African 

Union last weekend when the Peace and Security Council called for 

the resumption of an inclusive dialogue to be held outside of the 

country under the facilitation of President Museveni. We support 

the AU’s leadership in demanding more urgent progress toward 

dialogue and consequences for those who impede it. 

Regarding our next steps, we are pursuing all available diplomatic tools to convince Burundian stakeholders, the region, and the 

international community to support the immediate resumption of 

dialogue. We have already significantly curtailed our security assistance to the Burundian Government and all remaining non-lifesaving U.S. assistance is being reviewed. While we strongly support the peacekeeping missions in Somalia and the Central African 

Republic, our ongoing support for Burundi’s participation could be 

suspended if the government continues on its current path. 

We are reviewing options for holding individuals accountable for 

acts of violence and human rights abuses. In this effort, we support 

the AU’s call for sanctions and the EU’s recent decision to impose 

targeted sanctions to hold accountable those whose actions they determined have led to acts of unlawful violence and serious human 

rights abuses. 

Lastly, the interagency is working with the White House on contingency planning for the possibility of more widespread violence in 

Burundi. We laud the AU for also pursuing such planning and we 

will support efforts to prevent mass atrocities. 

Whereas Burundi has already made a costly decision to pursue 

a dangerous path, the leadership of the DRC still faces a choice, 

a crossroads, with its Presidential elections currently scheduled for 

November 2016. Good elections would bolster the DRC’s democratic 

development and be a critical step in addressing governance issues 

that have been a fundamental aspect of decades of instability. On 

the other hand, a delayed or illegitimate election could set off a far 

greater crisis than we have seen in Burundi. The DRC Constitution 

24

states unambiguously that a President may serve only two consecutive terms in office and this provision cannot be amended. 

The government’s attempts to change the electoral process in a 

way that could extend President Kabila’s tenure have been 

staunchly rejected by the population, many of the President’s own 

political supporters, their Parliament, and civil society. There are 

technical challenges that must be addressed if national elections 

are to be held on time. The current bloated electoral calendar is already off track. The voting rolls have not been updated since the 

last elections and the Independent National Electoral Commission 

or CENI recently became leaderless with the resignation of its 

President, Abbe Malu Malu. 

Beyond the timing and logistics of elections, the most concerning 

trend in the DRC is the alarming escalation of political repression 

and the closing of political space. Disturbing reports of extrajudicial 

killings, use of excessive force against demonstrators, and trumped 

up convictions of civil society leaders are all of serious concern. 

The challenges outlined above are not insurmountable, but a 

2016 election will require Congolese political leaders to quickly 

reach consensus on next steps. First, the DRC needs to revise a realistic electoral calendar which prioritizes Presidential and parliamentary elections next year and consolidates multiple rounds of 

voting. 

Second, the DRC Government and the CENI should agree upon 

a budget and the government should disburse the necessary funds. 

Third, the CENI should green light a process for updating existing 

voter rolls. Fourth, candidates, parties, and government officials 

should all make a pledge for nonviolence. Fifth, the DRC Government should resume cooperation with MONUSCO to ensure proper 

security, given the acute risk of instability and violence during the 

election period. 

We will continue to engage the DRC Government, CENI, opposition parties, and civil society to support the upcoming elections and 

to maintain and reopen political space. We will also continue to 

work with our donor partners on public engagement and electoral 

support. Our goal is simple: Let the voice of the Congolese people 

shape their country’s bright future. 

Finally, Rwanda’s elections are not until 2017, but the Rwandan 

Government is already taking steps to enable President Kagame to 

remain in office beyond current constitutional term limits. While 

we respect the ability of any Parliament to pass legislation that reflects the will of the people, we continue to firmly support the principle of democratic transition of power in all countries and respect 

for existing constitutional term limit provisions. We do not support 

incumbents amending constitutions to stay in power as doing so 

undermines democratic institutions and is an ingredient for instability. 

The fate of democracy in Rwanda is about more than just the 

next election. Political freedoms continue to be limited, creating an 

environment where open debate and disagreements about security 

and political issues are rarely seen. Respect for human rights is a 

pillar of democracy and credible elections. 

Let me conclude these introductory remarks with a few general 

takeaways. First, countries in the region are watching closely what 

25

happens in Burundi and the Republic of Congo with their own elections in mind. Second, there must be consequences when leaders 

deliberately exchange their country’s stability for their own hold on 

power. Sanctions and cuts to assistance as targeted as possible 

must be part of this equation. Third, courageous citizens across the 

region take great personal risk each day to defend fundamental 

freedoms and a future many of us take for granted, the Pierre 

Clavers, the Yves, the Freds. The future of the region will be forged 

by those who stand for a democratic future, but our policy can reinforce and protect their efforts. Fourth, high-level U.S. and international engagement will be pivotal between now and 2017 as the 

region is watching how donors respond to actions in the region. 

Despite the worrying signs across the region, I want to end on 

a positive note. There is still a window for all Burundian stakeholders to come together in a dialogue before this escalates to war. 

There is time for the DRC to organize credible and historic elections to see the first peaceful democratic transition and for 

Rwanda’s story to be one of great economic growth and democratization. But time is of the essence, as is strong bipartisan U.S. 

leadership. Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Perriello follows:]

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Mr. SMITH. Without objection your full statement will be made 

a part of the record as well as yours, Madam Ambassador. 

Let me just ask a few opening questions. First of all, we did have 

a hearing on the LRA on September 30 and there was a consensus 

among our witnesses that not only elimination, but even a limitation on the current U.S. deployment could be catastrophic. And I 

just hope you can reassure us that that is not in the offing. And 

you point out and the evidence is very clear, there has been a 90 

percent decrease in killings, a 30 percent decrease in attacks by the 

LRA since deployment in 2011. And yet, there has been, not an increase, but a troubling number of abductions, particularly of Congolese that have occurred over the last 4 years, 417 was the number that was cited to us. 

And I am just wondering, one of the things that came out of that 

hearing as well was the importance of U.S. leadership, the Ugandans, and the others who have very capable troops deployed as to 

how it really—that could all fall apart, too, without the U.S. command and control and some of the other counterinsurgency expertise that is brought to bear. So if you could just speak to that and 

how important that deployment has been and hopefully will continue. How well the other nations have stood-up troops because 

again, we don’t want those troops to go away, we want them to 

stay focused until Kony is brought to justice as well as those who 

have committed atrocities. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. Let me just say that we are 

very proud of what we have achieved so far. Again, we don’t want 

to sit on our hands and pat ourselves on the back yet because Kony 

is still out there. And as long as Kony is still out there, we remain 

committed to working with governments in the region to address 

this issue. We believe that our comprehensive strategy incorporating military and civilian efforts are helping the regional governments make significant progress to degrade the LRA’s capabilities and reduce the threat that they pose to the communities 

around them. 

And I want to note that we conduct regular interagency reviews 

to ensure that this effort is making sufficient progress. Our most 

recent review concluded that it continues to do so. So we will continue to remain committed to this effort. I have had several meetings with President Museveni over the past few months and raised 

this issue with him and got his commitment that he was willing 

to stay the course until Kony was captured. And so I think we are 

in a good place. 

Mr. SMITH. On the issue of adoption, we held a hearing on July 

16th with a focus on African adoptions in general and the DRC in 

particular. And the concern expressed by parents and families who 

actually know their children, but can’t get that permit to allow 

them to leave the country. Peter Pham of the Atlantic Council who 

has appeared before our subcommittee many times, recently wrote 

an op-ed accusing Kabila of blocking the departure to the United 

States of legally-adopted children as a form of blackmail against 

pressure to follow the constitution. 

If you could just provide further insight as to what is causing—

the factors that are causing the ability of these children to find 

that loving home that just awaits them and whether or not Dr. 

41

Pham is raising a legitimate point with regards to the reason, or 

one of the reasons, why Kabila is dragging his feet? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. I don’t know that I could 

speak for the motives of President Kabila and the Government of 

the DRC, but I do want to say that we have put undue pressure 

on the government to relinquish these children and to allow them 

to exit the country. President Obama called President Kabila to 

urge him to action. Secretary Kerry has pressed Kabila to resolve 

this matter. We have had the Assistant Secretary for Consular Affairs travel to the DRC in March. In August, we had one of my deputies, Stu Symington, also engage with the government when he 

was there. Dr. Jill Biden sent a letter to President Kabila and to 

his sister to encourage him. Special Envoy Perriello has visited and 

he raised this issue. 

And during the U.N. General Assembly last month in New York, 

both of us met with the government, with the Foreign Minister and 

we put this first on our agenda, which surprised him, that this was 

at the top of our agenda. We had a meeting for probably 11⁄2 hours 

and the top subject, more than 30 minutes, was on adoption issues. 

What we are hearing from the government, and we continue to 

hear from the government is soon they are going to make a decision. Soon has not come soon enough for the families. 

Mr. SMITH. Sure. What are the reasons? And I know some of the 

kids actually passed away from illnesses that could have been mitigated and probably eliminated. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. Part of the reason again, and 

I don’t want to speak for the Government of the DRC, but they 

have argued that some of the adoptions were not done legally and 

because of that they want to investigate and ensure that legal procedures are used in the future. We are good with that, but most 

of these cases, in fact, probably the majority, if not all of our cases, 

were done in a legal manner and we are just asking that the government to release these children. They are still approving new 

cases which is a real problem for us because then it is causing 

more families to go through the anguish that they are going 

through. And many of those families are living in the DRC with 

their children, taking care of their children so that they can ensure 

their health and well-being. 

Mr. SMITH. But the ongoing approvals would suggest that it is 

a delay, not a stoppage. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. That is my hope and prayer, 

but it is still taking way too long. 

Mr. SMITH. Let me just ask you with regards to Burundi, on July 

2, obviously, the administration and State Department announced 

the suspension of several security assistance programs. What conditions must be met by the Burundian Government in order for the 

U.S. Government to resume the security aid? And are there other 

sanctions potentially being contemplated now? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. Right now, what we are pushing the government to do is start a dialogue, an inclusive dialogue 

led by the Ugandan Government through the EAC. That would be 

the first step, but I think we have to wait and see what the results 

of that dialogue are before we get into any discussions with the 

42

government on next steps of resuming a normal relationship with 

this government. 

Tom, you might want to follow up. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. Sure. So a number of different programs have 

been suspended for a number of different reasons including security conditions on the ground, some of the multilateral lending institutions in the EU and others also have suspended based on everything from failure to meet the most basic transparency corruption standards, as well as obviously human rights and other concerns. The government, I think, would be mistaken to believe that 

they are within a step or two of such programs resuming, but the 

biggest step that could be taken as the Assistant Secretary mentioned would be the resumption of the dialogue and the moving toward again stability, as well as meeting that range of standards. 

And we are continuing to look at the full range of options that are 

available in terms of programs that are ongoing as well as looking 

at the leadership of the African Union and the European Union 

have taken, and holding people accountable, not just on the government side, but anyone also who is resorting to force or violence on 

the opposition side. 

Mr. SMITH. Let me just ask you, when Rwandan Major Robert 

Higiro testified, we had vetted him very, very carefully and I know 

we asked the State Department to review his evidence which 

seemed very compelling. And my understanding is very clearly you 

found it to be credible. How has that affected our relationship with 

Rwanda? Have we raised it? What has the response been to these 

extrajudicial killings or the allegations of such? How do they respond to this? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. This is an ongoing subject 

with the Rwandan Government at every level. When we have had 

congressional delegations go out like Senator Coons who was out 

there a few weeks ago, in all of our engagements with the Rwandan Government, with the President, we have raised our concerns 

about human rights violations, about reports and allegations of 

extrajudicial killings, about disappearances. And they have denied 

their involvement in all of these cases. But we have been clear in 

our messaging that this will have a real deep impact on our future 

engagement with the Rwandans. They are doing some wonderful 

things on the economic and social front. They are making progress 

on the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) like no other country. That is an amazing legacy that will be destroyed if on the political and human rights side they don’t——

Mr. SMITH. I would suggest that legacy and I know Rick Warren 

has been very clear about this that it is only because—there is government commitment, no doubt. But it is the faith-based organizations that have made all the difference in the world. And I know, 

Tom, you might want to speak to that as well, that it has a multiplier effect. I mean Rick Warren recently brought a map and said 

here is where some of the government stations are for health and 

the like. Here is a map with stars or flags where there are faithbased communities that can take these challenges on and truly get 

it to the people. So I would encourage you to continue utilizing the 

faith-based community to the nth degree because I think the multiplier effect has no equal. 

43

Mr. PERRIELLO. Sure, just to echo what the Assistant Secretary 

said, not just in Rwanda, but throughout the region we have emphasized several points, one of which is that fair elections don’t just 

happen on election day. It is about the environment that is created 

in the months and the year ahead of an election. Is there open political space where dissent is welcomed, where assembly and press 

are welcomed? And we have seen in Rwanda, in DRC, in Burundi, 

obviously, past the breaking point that that political space is closing. 

We have seen faith-based organizations play a tremendously 

positive role in all three of those countries including Rwanda and 

there has been an effort by leaders in multiple countries to say 

anyone critical of a government is immediately an opposition party 

member and this distinction between civil society organizations 

who are independent of political parties, but raising concerns about 

human rights, press freedoms, and other issues, as well in the Burundi case, of seeing anyone who is critical as being a putschist or 

a coup plotter. This is not what happens in stable democratic societies. All of us have faced more than a little dissent in criticism 

from political opponents and we have to understand that that is 

part of a healthy democracy. So we continue to raise that, not just 

for the Government of Rwanda, but governments throughout the 

region. 

Mr. SMITH. I would say I am not sure we all welcome the opposition, but we certainly know that it is part of the system and it is 

an important part of it. 

Mr. Cicilline. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses. Each of the countries that are the subject of this hearing 

face critical moments in terms of political transition. I just wonder 

if you would share with the committee what you think we might 

be able to do to encourage this democratic transition that seems to 

be up for consideration in each of these three countries and how 

we might use whatever tools are available to us to really encourage 

and persuade the leadership in these countries about the impact 

that that kind of peaceful transition has on the long-term security 

and prosperity of their country? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. I think the most important 

thing that we can do is to be consistent in our messaging. It has 

to come from every source within the U.S. Government. If we from 

the State Department are going out to meet with these governments, if members of other agencies are going out to meet with 

these governments, Members of Congress are going out, they have 

to hear to same message from all of us that we support democracy, 

we support stability, and we support countries honoring their constitutions and not changing their constitutions to benefit the incumbent who is in power. These countries are hearing these messages. 

I like to refer to the fact that we have actually had some success. 

The one success we have had is that all of these countries have 

bought into the legitimacy of elections because in the past they 

didn’t have elections. They would just declare themselves President 

for life and people would have to live with it. It is a small glimmer 

there, but the fact that elections provide legitimacy is an important 

44

thing and now we have to work to improve those elections, improve 

the ability of people in these countries to participate in elections 

and prove the ability of civil society to have a voice and then we 

will end up with examples like Nigeria. And I know we are not 

here to discuss Nigeria where civil society was a key player in that 

election, where capacity building was a key element in having a 

successful, democratic election that led to a peaceful transition. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. Let me just offer a few things. One, I think to 

something Congressman Meadows said at the beginning. One of 

our biggest enemies here is apathy. And I think as we raise awareness, whether that is from the perch you have here or visiting the 

region, this is not something that has got the world’s spotlight. 

There are so many crises around the world. The people of the region have struggled for a long time and forged a path forward and 

I think they deserve the world’s attention. So I think that is one 

positive thing. 

Second is while it is important for all of us as has been pointed 

out to call out backsliding in the region or closing of political space, 

there is also a lot positive to be said here. Everybody knows that 

this is a region with unbelievable potential, not just because of its 

mineral wealth, but because it does have strong leadership in civil 

society. It has really developed some of the institutions. Some are 

nascent of strong democracies. There are heroes who are risking 

their lives every day to defend basic freedoms and so I think we 

have a positive story to tell. 

Third is continuing to be strong partners to the African Union 

as well as the European Union in these efforts. The African Union 

took quite bold leadership last week in its communique about Burundi and I think where they are willing to show leadership in the 

region across the continent, it is important for us to be there. 

The last thing I just want to say is a shout out to supporting our 

Embassies there and particularly in Burundi that has been under 

difficult circumstances with security risks and drawdowns, a lot of 

long hours. When I go out and visit, they always welcome me even 

though I know it is exhausting for them to have visitors. And so 

continuing to be supportive of our folks that are out there under 

difficult circumstances. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Thank you. And this spring, MONUSCO helped 

facilitate the release of 431 child soldiers from rebel groups in eastern Congo and the U.N. is currently working to help reintegrate 

these children back into society. Can you speak a little bit to how 

the United States is supporting efforts to disarm, demobilize, and 

reintegrate former combatants in the Congo, particularly as it pertains to children? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. That is one of our highest priorities in terms of working with governments on disarmament and 

demobilization. And USAID has a very robust program in DRC 

working in this area. I don’t have the exact details. You were just 

out there. You may have more at hand. But it is something that 

we work very, very closely with MONUSCO on. We also are supporting UNICEF’s efforts to help integrate these children back into 

their communities. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. Yes, I just happened to be out at a project in 

Bukavu not long ago, just last week, it all bleeds together now, but 

45

it was an inspiring project, a local organization that had some support from both USAID and Eastern Congo Initiative that was working with both former child combatants, and also young women who 

had been in sexual slavery or otherwise put at risk. And it was 

skills training. And one of the things that people have learned over 

the years partly with support from our development organizations 

is it is not enough just to give the training. There has to be a demand side at the other end, an organization ready to hire them or 

some ability to allow them to start their own entrepreneurship operation. So this is incredibly important. It was something we certainly saw back when I was living in Sierra Leone as well, finding 

economic opportunities, but also community and support networks, 

psychosocial counseling, etcetera. So the United States, along with 

many other independent organizations, are doing great work on 

that, but I think it is also a reminder as we look at how crucial 

this democratic transition is that there continue to be elements 

that could become very problematic if the country started to backslide. And that is one of the reasons we have to stay so focused on 

the stability element as well. 

Mr. CICILLINE. And finally, as you know, Uganda’s Constitutional 

Court overturned their anti-homosexuality law. That was last year, 

but of course, we know that that doesn’t end homophobic or antiLGBT activities. So what is the current status of attempts to legalize homophobia and violence in Uganda? What do you think is the 

prospect that that issue will be raised again and is it a sentiment 

that is being reflected in other parts of the region that we should 

be aware of? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. We were very pleased when 

the Constitutional Court made the decision to not move forward 

with this bill and we have since heard from Ugandan authorities 

that they have no intention of presenting this bill back to their 

Parliament. That said, it always could happen again. We continue 

to support the LGBT community in Uganda, to encourage respect 

for their human rights. Human rights are enshrined in the Ugandan Constitution and so we constantly remind them that respect of 

the human rights of all Ugandans regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity is critical to the country’s success and 

moving forward in democracy. And I actually see this, at least up 

to this point, as a success story. 

The LGBT community in Uganda have told us that they are seeing more support from the police. They feel much more confidence 

in the chief of police and they think his leadership has been part 

of building their confidence in the community. So we will continue 

to work this effort. It is not over. This doesn’t change hearts and 

minds. There is still a huge, huge community of people who will express their views in ways that are unacceptable and what we want 

to do is encourage the government to hold them accountable, but 

also to protect the human rights of all of their citizens. 

Mr. CICILLINE. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank 

you. 

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Meadows. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you each of you 

for your testimony here today. I want to refocus on consistency of 

message and by addressing consistency of message, this is not 

46

meant to be reflective of either of you because you have great resumes and great credentials. But throughout administrations, 

whether it is Democratic or Republican administrations, the consistency of message has not been something that the African communities, whether it is in these four countries or others, have been 

able to count on. And it is very troubling to me as a Member of 

Congress that when you go abroad, and specifically to Africa, the 

continent of Africa and meet with leaders, the inconsistency of us 

following through on what we promise is a reoccurring theme. 

How can we address that to make sure that we are not saying 

that we are making progress or making promises, only to find out 

that part of our diplomatic and potentially political influence in 

those regions are affected by our inability to keep our word? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. Thank you for that question. 

I usually have someone walking behind me taking notes on promises that I make and they usually will nudge me. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Can we borrow some of those? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. They will nudge me not to 

make promises because if I make promises, we feel that we are 

committed to following through on those promises. 

What you are saying I hear regularly from African leaders. I 

hear regularly that we have promised to support them in certain 

areas and we have not followed up. On the other side of that coin 

I hear from advocacy groups that we make promises to hold people 

accountable and we don’t always follow through in holding them 

accountable and so that is on my shoulders to ensure that on both 

sides. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So if that is the case and I think that both of 

those statements are probably accurate and there are times when 

the countries do not do what they say they were going to do. How 

do we just turn a blind eye to that and assume that we are going 

to hit a reset button and then it somehow miraculously is going to 

fix itself without identifying the issue and trying to address it? And 

specifically, all we can do is control what we do. You have the person that follows you around. So how do we do that that we let them 

know that we mean what we say, that we are going to follow 

through, whether it is accountability or funding or support in a 

particular area? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. I am going to be honest and 

frank. It is hard. And the reason it is hard is because we don’t always have control over the resources and the resources are constantly a moving target. So there is a lot of manipulation of resources so that you can honor a commitment here which means you 

might not be fulfilling the commitment here because you have 

moved resources from here to honor the commitments that you 

have made on this side of the ledger book. And that is part of not 

having full control over the resources. 

Mr. MEADOWS. You mean you specifically? Because it is a State 

Department budget. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. The State Department specifically, but I would say me more broadly within my own small world, 

not actually having control over those resources. So I say on a regular basis that my highest priority is democracy and governance to 

really support governments building capacity and electoral commisVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:09 Nov 18, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_AGH\102215\97267 SHIRL
47

sions and the capacity of civil society so that they can work to promote better democracy. But if you look at the pie chart, democracy 

and governance is the thinnest slice of the pie. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Right. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. And so I will make commitments. There are elections all over the continent of Africa and everybody is asking for us to please send an observation team—send 

NDI, send IRI out to us, send the Carter Center out to us. And I 

am always nodding, I am going to do my best. And they take it as 

a commitment. And literally sometimes it is a matter of moving a 

commitment from somewhere else that may not be urgent at the 

moment and moving it over here to the urgent and then finding a 

way to deal with this when it becomes urgent. So that is part of 

the problem. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, here is what I would offer and I will close 

with this offer and then one more question. As a Member of Congress, where we talk about apathy, it doesn’t get me votes to be for 

foreign aid in Africa generally in North Carolina. I am willing to 

invest the political capital. I have invested the political capital. I 

am willing to work with the chairman and the ranking member because this is something that is near and dear to my heart and I 

am willing to do that. 

If it means expanding some of those resources from other areas 

within the State Department where we can, as you put it, I think 

stay focused, I am willing to do that, but we need to know how we 

can best do that in a bipartisan manner. I am willing to ask the 

tough questions. I know that may come as a surprise, but I am 

willing to ask the tough questions to do that. But we have to do 

a better job of—and again, this is not directed at the two of you. 

We have to do a better job as a nation of saying what we are willing to do, following through on that so that they know that they 

can count on the word of the American people. 

Now let me digress to one other area that you have already 

touched on and that has to do with the adoption of these children. 

Let me be perfectly clear for anybody that is here that is watching, 

this needs to go back. Enough is enough. We have to solve this 

problem. I am tired of coming to hearing after hearing after hearing and saying it is a high priority, it is our top priority, we are 

making progress where you got parents that don’t believe we are 

making progress. And that message needs to be taken back. It will 

have financial ramifications and I am willing to stake my reputation on that. So if you will take that message back and I will yield 

back, Mr. Chairman. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. And I appreciate that message from you. When Tom and I were meeting with the Foreign 

Minister and we started on the subject and he said I can’t believe 

you are going to start with this subject and I said I am going to 

be asked about this by our Congress. And I have to say that I started with this subject and got an answer from you. So your message 

has been heard. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, tell him that we are going to look for answers, not that we are working on it. Delay is one of those things 

that everybody says we are working on it and the time is now for 

answers. 

48

Ms. BASS. Well, Ambassador Perriello, your former colleague, 

Adam Schiff, sends his regards and actually is going to call you on 

that exact subject because he has constituents who have been trying to adopt from the DRC for quite a while. So I told him that 

I would relay that message to you. 

Thank you both for coming and your time today. I might ask you 

a few questions that have already been asked since I came a little 

late, so forgive me if that is the case. But I wanted to first start 

by talking about Burundi and I know you gave an update on that, 

Madam Assistant Secretary, but I was just wondering what at this 

point do you think is our leverage in Burundi? And I know that the 

AU has certainly stepped up and I also know that we have suspended some assistance to Burundi, but do you think it is having 

an impact? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. Can I turn to my colleague to 

answer that? 

Ms. BASS. Sure. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. He will give a better answer 

than I did. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. I will try. First of all, please tell Congressman 

Schiff that I said hello. And I want you to know that I have a picture of one of the kids on my desk in the office. 

Ms. BASS. That is good. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. And I have met with the families and one of the 

first things Linda and I talked about is this is not technically in 

my docket, but they made clear this is an all team, all hands on 

deck effort. So all of us are participating in this. It boggles the 

mind that we are where we are and I have communicated to President Kabila directly that this is the number one thing I hear about 

from my former colleagues because that happens to be true as the 

message from Congressman Schiff indicates. 

On the leverage with Burundi I think there are two——

Ms. BASS. I am sorry, before you go on to that, what do you think 

is the real hold up? 

Mr. PERRIELLO. As Assistant Secretary Thomas-Greenfield said 

earlier, it is really difficult to know. While some people have posited that this is an effort to get a demand on this or that thing, 

it certainly has never been raised. We have gotten clear indications 

from people senior in the government that there is no legal barrier 

to this happening tomorrow, while others have certainly argued to 

us that there are these barriers. But as far as we can tell, there 

is nothing but political will that stands between at least some of 

the kids being released tomorrow, but I do want to let those who 

live and breathe this issue probably give more technical answers on 

it. But I can tell you that it boggles my mind. 

Ms. BASS. You know, I went to one country, I won’t mention the 

name of the country, not in Africa, and this issue was the same. 

And one of the things that was happening there was financial because a lot of the parents, people in waiting to adopt the children, 

were sending large sums of money to the country to maintain the 

children in orphanages. And it seemed as though there was a financial incentive from the people who ran the orphanages. I don’t 

know enough about the situation in DRC to know if it is a similar 

49

thing that there are orphanages that people are running and U.S. 

citizens are supporting. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. There have been some allegations in that area and the fact that new adoptions are still continuing to be approved would suggest to us that that could be part 

of the problem because this is a business. And there are people who 

are benefitting financially from this and the more children they 

have in waiting, the more money they are getting. So I do see that 

as a real issue. 

Ms. BASS. And the other side of it, too, is on our side and I am 

hoping that we are doing good jobs in screening who from here is 

adopting because we do have a problem on the other end, too, with 

some of the families here, then getting into trouble. 

I wanted to—you were going to finish? 

Mr. PERRIELLO. I was going to talk about the leverage issue with 

Burundi. 

Ms. BASS. Yes, yes. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. I think there are a couple of categories that we 

can think about. One is the various stakeholders in Burundi itself 

and the second is leverage we have with others who can be playing 

a positive or potentially negative role. And we talked earlier about 

how some of the actors in the region, that it is important to make 

sure that all the neighbors, whether that is Rwanda, Tanzania, Angola, DRC, are all being a force driving the stakeholders to a peace 

table. We believe that is best done in Kampala, although we would 

also support the African Union’s call whether that is in Kampala 

or in Addis. 

Within Burundi right now there are a number of drivers, one of 

which is economic collapse and while our direct aid has been suspended and the EU is going through its article 96 procedure, and 

obviously we try to coordinate and work not just with the AU, but 

donor countries. This is a government that is facing some real 

threats and challenges, not just physical security threats, but economic crisis. 

We obviously continue to support the UNHCR efforts. I visited 

refugee camps in both Tanzania and Rwanda, camps with very 

tough conditions right now, not because the host governments 

aren’t being generous, but because demands on UNHCR right now 

obviously with the Syria refugee crisis and other things are so 

high. 

And so I think there is leverage that we have with various actors 

and one of the things we are trying to do is obviously maintain 

lines of communication and always provide a healthy outlet to a 

peaceful solution while making clear that there will be consequences for people both on the government and opposition side 

who try to escalate and we believe that some of those can be significant as well as support for other positive actors in the EAC and 

the African Union. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. If I can just add, I think the 

other leverage is to really put pressure on the region, on the EAC, 

on the AU that has been, I think, moving in a great direction, on 

the U.N. as well, to make sure that all of the players are actively 

involved in trying to find a solution and putting pressure on this 

government. They are feeling the economic pressure as Tom said. 

50

They are feeling the economic pressure from the EU. They are feeling the economic pressure from the IFIs who have all pulled out 

their funding. And they are feeling the economic pressure from the 

private sector. So this is tremendous pressure, but it also shows 

the extent to which the President is willing to let the country collapse. 

Ms. BASS. Wow. So in terms of what our direction is now, since 

they already had the election, the pressure and all and our leverage is about just making it peaceful, in other words? Because I realize that some of his opponents have mysteriously died and there 

have been ongoing attacks. Is that the direction? 

Mr. PERRIELLO. The situation in Bujumbura is incredibly serious. 

In some neighborhoods we are almost to a position of ungoverned 

space where there is nightly violence and it is in both directions. 

There are people throwing grenades at police officers. Those police 

officers are going in and in some cases murdering entire families. 

In one case, that was someone with an IOM badge that had been 

shown to folks and the need for accountability that has been promised by the government. 

The African Union put clearly the impetus for this crisis on the 

decision to go forward with what they called non-consensual, noninclusive elections. We have reports from experts, as well as those 

looking at refugee flows, showing that the flow would probably be 

even higher if not for youth militias in the border areas, trying to 

prevent people from crossing so that the refugee crisis does not 

look as bad to the international community. So the situation is extremely serious. And in fact, to one of the things Assistant Secretary Thomas-Greenfield noted in terms of impact on the region, 

if I can be blunt, up until recently, there was a little bit of gamesmanship. It felt that people wanted to make this almost a proxy 

between scoring points with some of the neighbors and the closer 

this has gotten to widespread violence, some of those countries, I 

think, are switching to saying hey, let us not make this about each 

other, let us see this as a genuine crisis in Burundi that we cannot 

afford to see take on an ethnic or regional component. And so in 

that regard, you are seeing very serious issues. 

However, we have not yet crossed the point of no return and we 

believe along with the African Union and others that the only thing 

that can prevent this from having an even more violent end is this 

inclusive immediate internationally mediated dialogue that the AU 

communique have called for. 

Ms. BASS. Do you think that the goal of that would be new elections or the goal of that would be what? 

Mr. PERRIELLO. So one of the things we have emphasized to 

President Museveni and others is that we don’t need to solve those 

questions before the talks start, in part because getting people to 

the table is release valve to prevent folks from feeling force is the 

right way to solve this. However, we would be the first to admit 

those are going to be thorny and complicated questions. The opposition, at least through the CNARED coalition, there are complications of who should represent the opposition, initially said we want 

to guarantee that President Nkurunziza essentially immediately 

steps down and there is a transitional government. They have now 

said they would attend talks immediately without preconditions, 

51

but no doubt their position will involve some element of that, the 

government position will be quite different. 

But the important thing is to get people at the table and see 

whether there is path forward that gets Burundi back on a path, 

that we have to remember for all the very scary situation we are 

in, 15 years of progress, 15 years of progress across ethnic divisions, a strong neutral military that is held together, some economic progress. Just a year ago, this is not the story we were telling about Burundi. And so that is what we hope is we can find that 

table that brings people back to that place. 

Ms. BASS. Can you give an update on the situation in the DRC 

and Kabila? 

Mr. PERRIELLO. So the situation in the DRC——

Ms. BASS. With regard to elections. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. Right. Well, as I said if the Government of Burundi already chose to go down what we think was a very costly 

path, the DRC is still at that crossroads. 

Ms. BASS. Right. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. And it seems that there are some decisions to be 

made and certainly there are various moves that have been made 

by the government that would suggest heading in the direction of 

what is called glissement or slippage, but the reality is President 

Kabila has said over and over again I have never publicly said that 

I am going to break the constitution. I have never publicly said 

that I am going to run for a third term. We have seen most efforts 

at getting off a constitutional path have been successfully resisted 

by civil society and the opposition. It is a dynamic moment and I 

would say the next few months are going to be crucial. One of the 

mantras we have had is you know we need to think about DRC as 

a 2015 issue, not a 2016 issue. 

The decisions, the hope of being able to see this historic democratic transition at the end of next year has got to be something 

that is in the next 2 or 3 months, getting this agreement from the 

electoral commission on the calendar, bringing people together, 

etcetera. So the situation, the stakes are quite high. They are far 

higher, obviously just by human count than in any other country 

in the region, but the good news is we are still in a place where 

a peaceful democratic transition could happen. 

And I will just say, President Kabila, I think, deserves a lot of 

credit. Here is someone who as a very young head of his faction 

pushed for peace, got elected twice, has developed Kinshasa into a 

modern, very developed city. There is a lot to be said of building 

nascent democratic institutions, of going after at least some of the 

armed groups. And our hope is that part of that final legacy will 

be also to be the first to peacefully transfer power in DRC. 

Ms. BASS. Well, then what is your assessment of the opponents? 

Is there organized, stable——

Mr. PERRIELLO. So a few things. One of the things that is very 

hopeful about DRC is that you see some of the core pillars of a 

strong democracy. You see a relatively free press. You see a civil 

society that is independent of all political parties. You see genuine 

opposition parties. You see a ruling coalition that is like a lot of 

unruly coalitions where even many of the key leaders in that party 

have broken from the President on some key votes. So when we 

52

think about it, it is not our job to figure out who the right candidate is. It is to let Congolese voices be heard. 

What is concerning to us and we spoke about earlier is this issue 

about closing political space. There have been some dramatic steps 

taken, whether it is use of violence against protesters or surveilling 

and trumping up charges against civil society opponents. These are 

foundations of whether or not you will have a strong democracy. 

President Kabila told me directly he understands that fair elections are about the space created in the year before an election and 

not just on election day. And we certainly will continue to work 

with the government on some of those factors. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. And I would just add that I 

am still hopeful about the DRC. We do have a window of opportunity and we have to continue to engage with President Kabila 

and the people around him to get them to do the right thing. They 

are at a fork in the road and they could take the right road or they 

can take the wrong road. But they still have a chance to take the 

right road and we have to keep pushing them in that direction. 

Ms. BASS. Good. Well, finally, I just wanted to mention that and 

wanted to thank you, especially Assistant Secretary for allowing 

Anne Richard to come and to speak next week when we do one of 

our policy breakfasts because I am real concerned about the refugees. I mean there is an awful lot of attention on the Syrian refugees, very appropriately, but before there was the mass exodus 

from Syria, there was also a tremendous number of African refugees and I am just concerned that we might have lost sight of 

them. Lost sight of them in two ways. One, I don’t know what is 

happening to them in Europe. But two, when we make commitments to increase the number of Syrian refugees, I think we also 

need to increase the number of refugees from the continent, especially those that are coming through Libya, but in general. 

So a number of members signed a letter to Secretary Kerry asking for the numbers to be increased and I don’t know if there is 

any update on that in that regard, if you wanted to comment. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. I will let Anne, who is going 

to come up and talk to you, give you the details, but I do know that 

the African numbers were increased in the coming year. I don’t 

know where they are coming from, but they have increased them 

to 25,000 and I did carry a message from our earlier discussion 

back to the Bureau of Population Migration, and Refugees (PRM), 

so they are aware that you are interested in the subject and they 

are in a better position to discuss it with you. But I do think they 

heard your message. 

Ms. BASS. Good. She will give us the latest update next Thursday. Thank you. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. And I will pass that back to 

her as well. 

Ms. BASS. Okay. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. Let me just add one thing on to that because 

when I was in the camps in Tanzania, they were some of the 

toughest conditions I have seen in an official UNHCR camp in a 

long time. And I think PRM and State deserve credit for pushing 

hard because all the attention had been on the situation in Europe. 

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cause I think there were 140,000 people in a camp that holds 

30,000 at the time. And it was a matter of racing to get that open 

before the rainy season. And actually, in this case, the Tanzanian 

Government, particularly President Kikwete, deserves a lot of credit for pushing. There was a lot of regional resistance out in the 

west. So not just from the dollar figure numbers, but really trying 

to make sure there is attention in these spaces because the conditions are quite rough and the people coming over from Burundi 

now are coming over increasingly malnourished. Anecdotally, we 

are hearing increased incidents of gender-based violence. People 

are exiting because people are waiting to leave because of the fear 

of violence at the border. And therefore leaving sometimes in more 

vulnerable conditions. 

Ms. BASS. And I appreciate that. I do just want to be clear that 

I was making reference to the ones crossing the ocean, coming into 

Europe. And I do think that many countries in Africa need to be 

acknowledged for the fact that they have been absorbing tens of 

thousands of refugees, but I remember a few months ago when 800 

died crossing the Mediterranean. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you. Just a few final questions and of course, 

as my colleague says any additional questions. Thank you for your 

generosity for staying for long. 

Let me just first of all, we did have Anne Richard testify. I chair 

the Commission on Security Cooperation in Europe and we had her 

testify on Tuesday on Syrian refugees and one of the biggest 

takeaways came from the UNHCR Representative Pitterman who 

said that the proximate cause for the mass exodus that has occurred is the 30 percent cut in the World Food Programme and 

that people are now to the point that if they don’t have food, they 

are leaving. They just don’t have food. Other necessities are scarce 

as well. And I am wondering what that cut has done to the four 

countries in the Great Lakes region, if you might want to speak to 

that. Because it seems to be catastrophic and they are doing it, obviously, the World Food Programme is trying to do a triage and figure out where do they put a dwindling number of monies. 

And what also came across, and this was, again, from the 

UNHCR representative, is that they have only gotten 42 percent of 

their appeal for the Syrian refugees and the crisis in general, U.N., 

and that they are notoriously low on all of their appeals and that 

there are a lot of laggards who promise and never come through, 

but again, how does that affect the refugee situation and people 

who are at risk? 

Let me also ask you with regards to the Scaling Up Nutrition 

program which we have had hearings on and we had several hearings on, as a matter of fact. I have introduced a bill called the 

Global Food Security Act which puts a heavy emphasis on the first 

1,000 days of life, from conception to the second birthday, as being 

the all-important time to get it right for that child. Of course, you 

want to see nutrition and good supplementation for a lifetime, but 

that is where cognitive capabilities are either won or lost. That is 

where immune systems are built or not built and it mitigates, if 

not ends, stunting. And all four of the countries, Burundi in 2013, 

DRC in 2013, Rwanda in 2011, Uganda in 2011, all signed up for 

the Scaling Up Nutrition. And I wonder if you have any sense, does 

54

that come up in your meetings? Do we push it as a way? Because 

it not only makes sure that that unborn child or newborn child and 

that child as he or she matriculates into adulthood are healthier, 

but it has an unbelievably positive impact on maternal health and 

the woman and child or children, if it is twins, are that much 

healthier. Your sense on how that is going, particularly in war-ravaged Burundi where obviously these programs sometimes are 

short-circuited. 

And finally, on the issue of trafficking, I am chairing a hearing 

on November 4 on trafficking, the TIP Report. I was the prime 

sponsor of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, and frankly, 

found some flaws in this year’s report which are not reflected in 

the narrative, but are reflected in the designations. I don’t think 

any of the four countries that we are considering today were 

wrongly designated. Burundi is Tier 3. DRC is Tier 2 Watch List. 

Rwanda and Uganda are Tier 2. 

But the Tier 3, I am wondering especially, Mr. Perriello, how 

often does that issue come up? Do you get support not only from 

the Embassy and the designated people at our Embassies that deal 

with TIP issues, but does the TIP office itself provide you with updates and guidance? And what has been the response from the governments in question? Because it seems to me sex and labor trafficking are among the most horrific human rights abuses on the 

face of the earth. Burundi is Tier 3 for both sex and labor designations and I just wonder if you might want to elaborate on how that 

plays into your efforts, both of your efforts in these countries? 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. Let me start with the questions related to refugees and the impact of WFP’s decreases. It is 

not in my portfolio, but it affects my portfolio. If affects the people 

of Africa. And it is across the board. It is not just in the four countries in the Great Lakes. We are seeing the impact in the refugee 

camps in Kenya. We are seeing the impact in the refugees camps 

in Ethiopia. And then worse, we are seeing a huge, huge impact 

on the Ethiopian population in terms of the possibility of a famine. 

So this is a very, very serious issue for us. It has a little bit to do 

with climate change, but it also has a lot to do with politics. It has 

a lot to do with political stability. It has a lot to do with government policies. And this is where I think we can make a difference 

in terms of getting governments to develop policies that target 

their communities and place agriculture on the top of their agenda 

in terms of building the capacity of people to produce their own 

food so that they are not dependent upon food aid. 

I don’t have anything on the malnutrition issue that you raise. 

If you don’t mind, I would love to get back to you on that. That 

has not come up in any of my meetings with any of the governments. But I am sure my USAID colleagues hear it regularly. 

Mr. SMITH. But again, if you could make it part of that. It seems 

to me that people sign up robustly with all kinds of good intentions 

which for whatever reason, different priorities, maybe apathy, and 

this program gets put on a shelf at least partially. And again, I 

don’t know of a single program that I have ever seen that has done 

more and can do more to enhance the life, the well-being, and the 

mortality, the actual survival of individuals, children, babies, unborn babies, and then their mothers than this one. 

55

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. And I see this in terms of a 

political issue as well. And then on TIP, I had 50 meetings in New 

York during the ‘‘speed meeting’’ exercise that we went through 

and for every single country that was downgraded or not upgraded 

on TIP, I raised this as an issue. I will use the example of Comoros 

where there was an issue and they wanted to talk about how to 

address it and what they needed to do to address it so that they 

don’t get downgraded even further. So we have found among African governments while they push back, they also take it very, very 

seriously because they know that we take it seriously. 

So again, it is not always the best of situations, but I think governments are more and more taking it seriously. We hear a lot of 

arguments that this is our culture, you don’t understand. It is not 

that we are trafficking in children. We are taking children from the 

village so that we can educate them, but you see no signs of the 

education. 

So we do have this discussion on a regular basis with governments. And we work very closely with the TIP office to look at how 

we can help governments address this because our ultimate goal is 

to stop trafficking and to help governments address the issue and 

hold people accountable. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. I would echo everything she said on TIP. I can’t 

really be objective about it since I have been a big supporter of the 

program when I was on your side of things, but it certainly comes 

up with great frequency. 

On your point of UNHCR and the 42 percent pledge, I will just 

note that at the time that I was in the camps in Tanzania they had 

only gotten 17 percent of their pledge for Burundian refugees. That 

has gone up a little bit with some help from the United States. 

One thing I will just say in general with a number of things you 

are saying, and this takes me back a little bit to my previous job 

running Quadrennial Diplomacy and Development Review, is the 

attempt to use metrics in all of these situations. So whether it is 

WFP cuts or other things, I think we are trying to get better at 

some predictive analysis of being able to see when there is a 

drought in country X, how that is going to be affecting things 6 

months, 12 months, 18 months out, and I think there is a lot that 

is useful in coming together. 

One of the reasons we are still where we are in Burundi, I believe, is not just 15 years of investment on post-conflict transition, 

on reconciliation, on other things, but the Atrocity Prevention 

Board and other efforts flagged this a year out, 11⁄2 years out, as 

meeting a bunch of indicators. It is where we are with DRC now. 

So I think all of this is part of that move. 

And then last of all, I think to the point of some of the programs 

you are talking about, it might just be a moment to say we have 

spent 20 years as a country greatly invested in this region in terms 

of humanitarian support, as well as development, as well as security support. And as Linda mentioned earlier, underneath a lot of 

this is good governance. And we have done so much to get up to 

this point where there is a chance to turn the page where the dynamics are primarily determined by the region’s future and not its 

past and some of that is the personalities involved and the dynamVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:09 Nov 18, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00059 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_AGH\102215\97267 SHIRL
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ics. But underneath so many of these programs is a question of 

good governance. 

Even with people who are desperately poor in Burundi, we cannot send that money to a government that is using it, funneling it 

in a different direction or not using it well or not being transparent. So that is why I think we come back to this idea that I 

think President Obama, with support from the Hill, has had a really good policy in focusing on constitutions mattering, rule of law 

mattering, term limits mattering. We are offering our advice to our 

countries in the region and we believe that his is an opportunity 

to make a real difference in those areas. 

Mr. SMITH. One last thought before you leave, Ms. Bass, CRS’s 

Sean Callahan testified on Tuesday and made a very important 

point that I have heard many times. You, I know I am sure, have 

heard it many times before, too. And that is the ability of faithbased groups, not only to be extraordinarily flexible and get more 

push, more outcome for the buck, but also the entre, the accessibility, the ability to do something in regions or places of conflict 

that perhaps other people wouldn’t be able to do it because it happens to be a priest or a pastor of some kind or a bishop. 

And I am wondering if you are finding in Burundi, for example, 

or any of these other countries, if the faith-based groups have 

placed a significant role and perhaps there is even a reason or 

cause for an enhanced role to make sure that the food, the medicines, whatever it might be gets from us and from other donors and 

the government and U.N., UNICEF, whatever it might be, to the 

intended recipient. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. I would say the faith-based 

NGOs, assistance groups, have been extraordinary and very, very 

supportive across the board in Africa. In the case of Burundi, you 

have a President who claims to be a believer. He preaches his beliefs and we need more voices in the faith-based community here 

in the United States to talk to him, to let him know that some of 

the things that he is doing are not acceptable and that it causes 

us to doubt his faith. People are dying, people are being killed and 

it is happening on his watch and he has a lot of friends here who 

are supportive of him and we would encourage that he gets some 

messages from that community to do the right thing for the people 

of Burundi. 

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Clawson. 

Mr. CLAWSON. No one likes the man or woman that comes in late 

and then talks a whole lot, right? Not great. Not good behavior. We 

always get multi-scheduled around here. You all know that already, right? So the fact that we come late or some folks, I don’t 

know if Mark was here or not, that please don’t take that as a personal reflection. 

Mr. SMITH. As a former member, I am sure Tom understands 

that completely. 

Mr. CLAWSON. You know the deal, right? And you know, you all 

are competing with Secretary Clinton, too, so you have tough competition today. 

Mr. PERRIELLO. We were sure all those cameras were for this 

hearing. 

57

Mr. CLAWSON. You are a smart guy. I wanted to make sure that 

I showed up for several reasons. Number one, I have a lot of respect for the chairman and the ranking member and you learn that 

this is a ‘‘got you’’ environment. If you ever say anything wrong, 

they got you, right? And I think this subcommittee has been one 

place where there is a little less of that. And they are trying to pay 

attention to an area of the world where in my view clearly we have 

not historically paid enough attention. So first thing is to show respect there. 

Secondly, appreciation for what you all do to toil in and area or 

dedicated to an area that is not glamorous, but sure needs our attention as well. And to the extent that we can, resources which 

leads me to the third point and that is anything that I can do. This 

region of the world, your intersection of lots of humanitarian problems, ecological problems, and a big watershed all at the same 

place, right? And so we can’t forget about it. And if I take too much 

more time after not being here for almost 11⁄2 hours, I think it 

would be a little bit impolite. So with that, I express my appreciation to what you all are doing. And I say to the chair anything that 

I can do in this effort, of course, we stand ready. I yield back. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Clawson. Anything else you would 

like to say before we close? 

Mr. PERRIELLO. I just want to add one quick note which was to 

your point about faith-based groups. I obviously agree, but the 

other group that I think can play a very constructive role in the 

region is the private sector. And in addition to looking at these 

democratic transitions, there is a tremendous amount of entrepreneurial activity for the small agricultural entrepreneur as well as 

for very large corporations. And one of the things we have heard 

a lot from the private sector is we need to get through these democratic transitions, get through that stability threshold to be able to 

really see the economic opportunity for folks. So that is another 

sector we are just engaging I wanted to mention. 

Mr. CLAWSON. Could I jump in real quick? Spending my whole 

adult life in the private sector in the multi-national environment, 

we did business in South Africa, but nowhere else because we were 

worried about private property rights. And private business can always help in under-developed area because particularly if they 

have a little bit of enlightenment at the top so that all stakeholders 

mean something including employees, communities, etcetera. But 

you can never go to shareholders and say you may lose everything 

here because they don’t respect, in this particular country or region, private property rights, right? 

I know you are with me on this. Anything I can do in that regard, any help, if we can make the case for one of these countries 

that private property rights are respected, then the idea of exterior 

investment for the benefit of all stakeholders becomes lots easier 

to make. 

For those of you in the audience that are from these countries, 

it scares private investors even for an export-based investment. It 

scares us to look at something like that because we are not sure 

that our private property rights, meaning our investment, and 

therefore our shareholders, would be protected if we set it up. I 

think there are plenty of investors that don’t mind sharing with all 

58

stakeholders, including community and labor, folks that work. But 

you can’t lose your investment. Does that make sense? So anything—we can take this offline, but any time I can help you all, I 

am on Chris’ subcommittee here. Any time I can help in that regard, very, very interested in doing so. 

Ambassador THOMAS-GREENFIELD. That is a strong message to 

give any time you have any contact with African leaders, they all 

want American investors. I hear it on a regular basis. I have participated in a meeting by the Initiative for Global Development’s 

Frontier 100 Forum on business leadership in Africa that Secretary 

Albright and Colin Powell chaired yesterday. We talked about what 

would encourage American investors to go into Africa and what discourages them. And that point is the biggest point. 

Mr. CLAWSON. This is the biggest point. And without this, the 

idea that Africa can self-develop in my mind is a long putt. And 

our intentions can be as wonderful as we want them to be. In our 

facility in South Africa, the government told us that we didn’t have 

any choice but to sell them a certain percentage of the equity. Now 

I can do that as CEO of the company, but imagine if I tell my 

shareholders I am going to build a second factory in that country. 

I would get laughed out of the board room, right? 

This message, I think you and I are in violent agreement here, 

any time I can help you make that pitch because that will attract 

investment because there is a lot of good about these areas in 

terms of investment prospects as well I think. Thank you. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you so very much for your testimony, your 

leadership, and look forward to working with you going forward. 

The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:33 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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