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95–056 PDF 2015

OVERSIGHT OF EFFORTS TO

REFORM THE EXPORT-IMPORT BANK

OF THE UNITED STATES

JOINT HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MONETARY

POLICY AND TRADE

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

AND THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE, BENEFITS

AND ADMINISTRATIVE RULES

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

APRIL 15, 2015

Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services and the Committee

on Oversight and Government Reform

Serial No. 114–12

Financial Services Committee

Serial No. 114–9

Oversight and Government Reform Committee

(
(II)

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

JEB HENSARLING, Texas, Chairman

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina,

Vice Chairman

PETER T. KING, New York

EDWARD R. ROYCE, California

FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma

SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey

RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas

STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico

BILL POSEY, Florida

MICHAEL G. FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia

BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri

BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan

SEAN P. DUFFY, Wisconsin

ROBERT HURT, Virginia

STEVE STIVERS, Ohio

STEPHEN LEE FINCHER, Tennessee

MARLIN A. STUTZMAN, Indiana

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina

RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois

DENNIS A. ROSS, Florida

ROBERT PITTENGER, North Carolina

ANN WAGNER, Missouri

ANDY BARR, Kentucky

KEITH J. ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania

LUKE MESSER, Indiana

DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona

ROBERT DOLD, Illinois

FRANK GUINTA, New Hampshire

SCOTT TIPTON, Colorado

ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas

BRUCE POLIQUIN, Maine

MIA LOVE, Utah

FRENCH HILL, Arkansas

MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking

Member

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York

BRAD SHERMAN, California

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts

RUBE ́ N HINOJOSA, Texas

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts

DAVID SCOTT, Georgia

AL GREEN, Texas

EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin

KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota

ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado

JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut

JOHN C. CARNEY, JR., Delaware

TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama

BILL FOSTER, Illinois

DANIEL T. KILDEE, Michigan

PATRICK MURPHY, Florida

JOHN K. DELANEY, Maryland

KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona

JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio

DENNY HECK, Washington

JUAN VARGAS, California

SHANNON MCGAHN, Staff Director

JAMES H. CLINGER, Chief Counsel
(III)

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MONETARY POLICY AND TRADE

BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan, Chairman

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina, Vice

Chairman

FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma

STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia

MARLIN A. STUTZMAN, Indiana

ROBERT PITTENGER, North Carolina

LUKE MESSER, Indiana

DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona

FRANK GUINTA, New Hampshire

MIA LOVE, Utah

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin, Ranking Member

BILL FOSTER, Illinois

ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado

JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut

JOHN C. CARNEY, JR., Delaware

TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama

PATRICK MURPHY, Florida

DANIEL T. KILDEE, Michigan

DENNY HECK, Washington
(IV)

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

JIM JORDAN, Ohio

TIM WALBERG, Michigan

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina

RON DESANTIS, Florida

MICK, MULVANEY, South Carolina

KEN BUCK, Colorado

MARK WALKER, North Carolina

ROD BLUM, Massachusetts

JODY B. HICE, Georgia

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma

EARL L. ‘‘BUDDY’’ CARTER, Georgia

GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin

WILL HURD, Texas

GARY J. PALMER, Alabama

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, Ranking

Minority Member

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

Columbia

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts

JIM COOPER, Tennessee

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan

TED LIEU, California

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey

STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands

MARK DeSAULNIER, California

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania

PETER WELCH, Vermont

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico

SEAN MCLAUGHLIN, Staff Director

RACHEL WEAVER, Deputy Staff Director

ANDREW DOCKHAM, General Counsel

LAURA RUSH, Chief Clerk

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director
(V)

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE, BENEFITS & ADMINISTRATIVE RULES

JIM JORDAN, JR., Ohio, Chairman

TIM WALBERG, Michigan,

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina

RON DESANTIS, Florida

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina Vice

Chair

MARK WALKER, North Carolina

JODY B, HICE, Georgia

EARL L. ‘‘BUDDY’’ CARTER, Georgia

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania,

Ranking Member

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

Columbia

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey

MARK DESAULNIER, California

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania

JIM COOPER, Tennessee

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico

(VII)

CONTENTS

Page

Hearing held on:

April 15, 2015 ................................................................................................... 1

Appendix:

April 15, 2015 ................................................................................................... 67

WITNESSES

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 15, 2015

Gianopoulos, Kimberly, Director, International Affairs and Trade, U.S. Government Accountability Office ............................................................................. 13

Hochberg, Hon. Fred P., President and Chairman, Export-Import Bank of

the United States ................................................................................................. 8

McCarthy, Michael T., Acting Inspector General, Export-Import Bank of the

United States, accompanied by Mark S. Thorum, Assistant Inspector General for Inspections and Evaluations, Export-Import Bank of the United

States .................................................................................................................... 11

Sheets, Hon. Nathan, Under Secretary for International Affairs, U.S. Department of the Treasury ........................................................................................... 10

APPENDIX

Prepared statements:

Cartwright, Hon. Matt ..................................................................................... 68

Gianopoulos, Kimberly ..................................................................................... 70

Hochberg, Hon. Fred P. .................................................................................... 89

McCarthy, Michael T., and Thorum, Mark S. ................................................ 130

Sheets, Hon. Nathan ........................................................................................ 141

ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Heck, Hon. Denny:

Written statement of a group of State Governors who support reauthorization of the Ex-Im Bank ............................................................................ 145

Huizenga, Hon. Bill:

Article from The Wall Street Journal entitled, ‘‘Justice Department

Charges Former Export-Import Bank Official With Bribery,’’ dated

April 14, 2015 ................................................................................................ 149

Article from The Wall Street Journal entitled, ‘‘Officials at Ex-Im Bank

Face Investigations,’’ dated June 23, 2014 ................................................. 152

Moore, Hon. Gwen:

Slides pertaining to Ex-Im Bank ..................................................................... 155

Article from the Free Republic entitled, ‘‘Cruz under fire from Texas

businesses (Export-Import Bank),’’ dated February 27, 2015 ................... 158

Written statement of the National Association of Manufacturers ............... 160

(1)

OVERSIGHT OF EFFORTS TO

REFORM THE EXPORT-IMPORT BANK

OF THE UNITED STATES

Wednesday, April 15, 2015

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MONETARY

POLICY AND TRADE,

COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES,

JOINT WITH THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE,

BENEFITS AND ADMINISTRATIVE RULES,

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND

GOVERNMENT REFORM

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in

room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jim Jordan

[chairman of the Health Care, Benefits and Administrative Rules

Subcommittee] presiding.

Members present from the Monetary Policy and Trade Subcommittee: Representatives Huizenga, Mulvaney, Lucas, Pearce,

Stutzman, Pittenger, Messer, Schweikert, Guinta, Love; Moore,

Foster, Carney, Sewell, Murphy, Kildee, and Heck.

Members present from the Health Care, Benefits and Administrative Rules Subcommittee: Representatives Jordan, Walberg,

DesJarlais, Gowdy, Meadows, DeSantis, Mulvaney, Walker, Hice,

Carter; Cartwright, and Watson Coleman.

Ex officio present: Representatives Hensarling, Chaffetz, Waters,

and Cummings.

Also present: Representatives Posey, Duffy, Blum, Clay, and

Green.

Chairman JORDAN. The subcommittees will come to order. We

have interest from several of the members of the respective full

committees who would like to participate. So I ask unanimous consent that those colleagues be allowed to fully participate in today’s

hearing. Without objection, it is so ordered.

I want to welcome our witnesses today. We will get to your introductions in just a minute. But we want to start—and you know

how this works. Most of you have done this before. We will start

with opening statements.

So I recognize the gentleman from Michigan, the chairman of the

Monetary Policy and Trade Subcommittee, Mr. Huizenga.
2

Chairman HUIZENGA. Thanks, Chairman Jordan. I appreciate

your willingness to hold this joint hearing on this important issue

to discuss the Export-Import Bank.

This hearing will examine the role of the Ex-Im Bank, the 2012

authorization of the Bank by Congress, and Ex-Im’s progress on

implementing the reforms and recommendations made by the GAO

and the Ex-Im Bank’s Office of Inspector General.

Many of this, we all know. We are familiar with the history. The

Bank was established by Executive Order in 1934, and became an

independent agency in 1945 with the mission to support domestic

job creation in the United States. The Export-Import Bank is intended to facilitate the export of U.S. goods and services to international markets by providing working capital guarantees, export

credit insurance, loan guarantees, and direct loans.

Since its creation, Ex-Im’s taxpayer subsidy has grown exponentially to a whopping $140 billion cap. As the national debt continues to climb over $18 trillion, many fear that these taxpayerbacked loan guarantees put taxpayer dollars at significant risk and

raise concern that the Ex-Im is looming towards yet another bailout that the American people simply cannot afford.

It has been claimed that while the Export-Import Bank is a selfsustaining agency that receives a net appropriation of zero from

Congress, because these Bank loans are backed by the full faith

and credit of the U.S. Government, I believe, as do many others,

that the U.S. taxpayers are at risk if the Bank’s projects fail.

It is important to note that the Bank has already received a congressional bailout. The Export-Import Bank operated at a loss

every year from 1982 to 1985. And by 1991, the Bank’s accumulated deficit hit $7.5 billion.

In fact, I was an intern here on the Hill in the spring of 1991.

And it was a raging debate, what was happening and what to do

about it. And many will recall that it was the closing days of the

George H.W. Bush Administration. Democrats were firmly in control of both the House and the Senate and were trying to figure out

what to do.

The solution was that from 1992 to 1996, Ex-Im received $9.92

billion in direct appropriations from Congress and the American

taxpayers. In 2012, Congress reauthorized Ex-Im while also mandating several modest reform provisions that shared broad bipartisan support. These reform provisions required that the Ex-Im

Bank submit a business plan to Congress, as well as respond to a

review of Ex-Im’s risk management practices conducted by GAO.

Additionally, the reauthorization directed the Treasury Secretary

to initiate—I think that is a key word—and pursue multilateral negotiations to reduce, with the ultimate goal of eliminating, all

trade-distorting export subsidies, including those for aircraft, which

has been a central theme in this discussion.

The reauthorization further required that the Ex-Im Bank categorize each loan and long-term guarantee, classifying them as necessary to either: one, assume risk that the private sector would not

undertake, in other words, be that lender of last resort; two, overcome limits in private finance; or three, meet competition from foreign export credit agencies.
3

Although these reforms were intended to better protect taxpayers

and make the Export-Import Bank more accountable, the Bank,

and I believe Treasury, continue to ignore congressional intent and

instead operate with too little accountability and too little regard

for the interests of hardworking American taxpayers.

The most recent authorization of the Ex-Im Bank’s charter occurred in September of 2014 and expires this June 30th. As Congress continues its robust oversight of the Export-Import Bank, it

is important to note that the Ex-Im Bank cannot engage in new

business without congressional authorization; however, if the authorization does lapse, Ex-Im would be obligated to honor all of its

existing loans and guarantees. In other words, nothing would

change. But it would be prohibited from entering into new business.

Today, I look forward to hearing from our chairman of the Export-Import Bank; the Treasury Under Secretary for International

Affairs; both the acting and assistant inspectors general; and the

GAO in regards to the Bank’s progress or, frankly, lack thereof on

implementing these clearly-defined reforms that had come out at

the last authorization.

So thank you, Mr. Chairman. With that, I yield back.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the chairman for his statement.

We now recognize the gentlelady from Wisconsin, Ms. Moore,

ranking member on the Monetary Policy and Trade Subcommittee.

Ms. MOORE. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. And what a

privilege it is to be here with our guests today.

Before I get into the substance of my comments, I feel really compelled to address some of the mischaracterizations of the Bank.

And I am very disturbed that this debate been hijacked by

strawmen arguments.

I struggled to understand how this debate had become so dispatched from the reality of how the Bank operates, that is until I

read the story in the Hill about Senator Cruz’s lack of support of

the Bank, despite strong support of the Bank from small businessmen in Texas, and his characterization of this being ‘‘low-hanging

fruit.’’ Low-hanging fruit, of course, being proxy language for the

Bank being low-hanging fruit in pursuit of a larger goal of really

dismantling any kind of governmental assistance. Really, that is

the sort of Tea Party argument that government should not help

anybody. And really, the larger goal of dismantling Social Security,

Medicare, and the entire social safety net. Okay, tangent is over.

So in response to the realities of global competition and business,

and in recognition that the Bank is a U.S. job creation engine, reauthorization in the past has been bipartisan. And we have very

little legislative time before the current authorization expires on

June 30th. We have a majority in the House, not a majority of

Democrats, a majority in the House supportive of reauthorization.

We have legislative language with cosponsors demonstrating that.

And I hope that this hearing will reset the debate and be grounded in fact. The Bank is not a government-funded utility that offers

below-market financing terms. It is not.

I will yield the rest of my time to the gentlelady from California,

the ranking member of the full Financial Services Committee, Ms.

Waters.
4

Ms. WATERS. Thank you very much, Ms. Moore. And thank you,

Mr. Chairman.

I am sure the irony of today’s hearing to discuss the implementation of the 2012 reauthorization of the Ex-Im Bank is not lost on

anyone. Today, not one, but two committees are holding this hearing on the progress of a 3-year-old law, just as we are only 32 legislative days away from the expiration of the Bank’s charter.

Despite this imminent threat to our economic recovery and to

American workers, the Financial Services Committee has yet to

hold a single legislative hearing to reauthorize the Bank. Over the

course of its 80-year history, the Bank’s charter has been renewed

16 times, supporting hundreds of thousands of jobs and leveling the

playing field for American businesses large and small so they can

compete for business in the global marketplace.

Earlier this year, my colleagues Gwen Moore, Denny Heck, minority whip Steny Hoyer, and I introduced legislation to reform and

reauthorize the Bank. The proposal has the support of 190 House

Democrats. Another proposal introduced this year to reauthorize

the Bank has garnered the support of 61 House GOP Members.

With the majority of House lawmakers officially on record in support of the Bank, it is clear that this Congress could pass an extension of the Bank’s charter today. This begs the question, what exactly are we doing here? Unfortunately, the answer is evident. We

are wasting time while the anti-government, anti-American-worker

wing of the Republican party works desperately to let the clock run

out on the Ex-Im Bank, on U.S. businesses, and on the many

American taxpayers whose jobs and families count on its support.

Over the past few years, the Bank has become more transparent,

more efficient, and more accountable to the American public, while

at the same time the Republican party by every one of these measures has become increasingly less so.

And what is so surprising is that my colleagues on the opposite

side of the aisle talk about support of business. Yesterday, we were

engaged on the Floor where they came up with measures supposedly in support of businesses. They didn’t want banks to go out

of business because they feel that they should be able to charge as

high interest rates as they want on manufactured housing, and on

and on and on. Business, business, business, support for business.

But what are we doing now? We are literally saying to those

businesses that are supported by Ex-Im and all of the suppliers

that go along with that, that this government does not care about

them and their ability to do business, they don’t care about job creation, and they don’t care that China and other countries are cleaning our clock as they support their export interests.

So I yield back the balance of my time. And I guess I will continue to waste my time and stay here to see what some are talking

about. Because I just don’t get it. I don’t understand it. I yield

back.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentlelady.

I now recognize the chairman of the full Oversight and Government Reform Committee, the gentleman from Utah, Mr. Chaffetz.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Thank you. I appreciate both bodies here.

I think this is a very worthwhile exercise to hear out the issues.

Because this is a group, an institution, the Export-Import Bank,
5

that has been fraught with problems and fraud and lack of oversight.

The fundamental question is, should Americans continue to subsidize the risk that is incurred by this Bank? It has failed consistently to meet its congressionally-imposed mandates. The Bank continues to attracts controversy. Just last night, I was reading articles about the Justice Department charging a former Ex-Im Bank

official with bribery. That literally happened yesterday. On 19 different occasions, it cites in the article. And the inspector general

stated that there are numerous open fraud investigations. It begs

a lot of questions in support for this hearing. I am glad we are

doing this jointly with the Financial Services Committee.

With that, I yield back.

Chairman JORDAN. I now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, the ranking member of the Health Care, Benefits and Administrative Rules Subcommittee, Mr. Cartwright.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And welcome to all

of our witnesses. I do look forward to your testimony today.

Today’s hearing is intended to examine the Ex-Im Bank’s effort

to implement congressionally-mandated reforms, as well as the implementation of recommendations provided by GAO and the Bank’s

inspector general.

The Ex-Im Bank’s transactions support billions of dollars in exports and hundreds of thousands of American jobs by supporting

U.S. companies that export to foreign markets. The Bank has been

a stellar steward of taxpayer funds, maintaining a portfolio with a

default rate of just 0.175 percent. And the Bank generates a surplus to the U.S. Treasury that results in deficit reduction.

Since 2012, the Bank has implemented all of the requirements

in the 2012 reauthorization. It has addressed 15 of the 16 GAO recommendations. It has concurred with 140 of 142 IG recommendations. The Bank continues to work with GAO on the one remaining

recommendation and the IG on the two unresolved recommendations.

The Ex-Im Bank plays a role in leveling the playing field for

American businesses competing in the global marketplace. There

are 60 other countries with foreign-export credit agencies that seek

to ensure their home country businesses are winning at export

sales. The Ex-Im Bank makes financing available to U.S. businesses to compete with these foreign manufacturers on the merits

of their goods and services and not government-backed cut-rate financing.

In Fiscal Year 2014, 89 percent of Bank transactions benefited

small business exporters of U.S.-made goods and services. These

are deals that could not and would not be done by the private sector alone, and are the perfect example of the kinds of public-private

partnerships we need to continue to do in order to grow our economy. In my own district in northwestern Pennsylvania, the Bank

supports over $63 million in exports, benefiting 8 companies and

over 400 jobs.

For most of its 80 years, the Ex-Im Bank has received support

from both Republicans and Democrats. In fact, Congress has consistently reauthorized this Bank 16 times without fail. The Bank’s

reauthorization is supported by a diverse coalition, including the
6

U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Waste and Recycling Association, and Air Products and Chemicals, Inc., which has two

large plants in my district.

But this year, a group I referred to in the past as the ‘‘shutdown

crowd’’ has decided to the hold the Bank’s reauthorization hostage.

Look, playing such a dangerous game is bad for American businesses, American exports, and, most importantly, American jobs.

Honest congressional oversight is an extremely effective tool for

achieving government reforms. Today’s hearing provides an opportunity effectively to examine the Bank’s efforts to strengthen its

policies and procedures, while holding the Bank accountable for implementation of reforms and assuring the American public that this

Bank continues to contribute to our economy.

And with that, Mr. Chairman, I am going to yield 1 minute to

our colleague, Mr. Heck, of the Financial Services Committee.

Mr. HECK. Thank you, sir. And thank you, Mr. Chairman.

That sound you hear in the background is the ticking of the

clock. There are, count them, exactly 32 legislative days until the

Ex-Im Bank expires. And yet, it has been 1,394 days since the committee last held a markup on reauthorization. You don’t have to be

a math savant to figure out that is 3 years and 10 months for what

was a 2-year reauthorization.

I welcome Chairman Huizenga’s albeit belated attention to the

most urgent legislative deadline before the Financial Services Committee. Bar none, no exception. There are two long-term reauthorization bills in the House. They have 250 sponsors between the 2

of them. There is a full majority in this committee who wants to

pass it out. There is a full majority of the House who wants to pass

it out. It is way past time to schedule a legislative markup on reauthorization of the Export-Import Bank, period.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Heck.

Mr. Chairman, I hope today’s hearing will highlight the good

work of the Ex-Im Bank, resolve any outstanding questions concerning the 2012 reforms, and provide additional support for the

Bank’s continuing reauthorization.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I yield back.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman. And I actually hope

for a different outcome.

Today’s hearing is exactly what the Oversight Committee is supposed to focus on, and frankly, what Congress is supposed to focus

on: eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse, things that have been

going on at the Ex-Im Bank for a long, long time.

The Export-Import Bank is little more than a fund for corporate

welfare. Those aren’t my words. Those are the words of Senator

Barack Obama in 2006. He was right. The Bank was and is corrupt

beyond repair. And everyone knows it. But 9 years later, the Bank

still exists. Why? The answer to that question represents the worst

of politics.

Every time the Bank is up for reauthorization, deep pockets of

special interest and their friends on K Street descend on Washington with ‘‘Chicken Little’’ fables about how small businesses

across America will suffer if the Bank’s charter is allowed to expire.
7

The reality is that 99.9 percent of small businesses across America get no assistance from the Ex-Im Bank. The Bank’s beneficiaries are some of the largest companies in America. And I don’t

fault large companies. They are great. We are glad they are here.

We are glad they do the great things they do in our economy. But

they don’t need middle-class taxpayers’ help to succeed.

And, of course, one company has received most of the assistance

from the Bank, and that is Boeing. Many have called Ex-Im the

‘‘Bank of Boeing,’’ and for good reason. In the last fiscal year, 40

percent of all authorized funds from the Bank went to one company: Boeing. That is 1⁄2 times more support than was received by

all of the small businesses combined.

And the degree to which small business are actually small is not

entirely clear. In November 2014, a Reuters analysis revealed that

the Bank listed companies owned by billionaires Warren Buffett

and Mexico’s Carlos Slim as small businesses.

Besides big corporations who don’t need the support, the other

main beneficiaries are Ex-Im Bank employees themselves. Recently, Michael Whalen was hired by the Bank as the vice president of structured finance. He comes from Solar Reserve, which

had a junk bond rating, but still received $737 million taxpayer

dollars from the Obama Administration program that supported

Solyndra, and has been a candidate for Ex-Im financing.

There is Tom Kiernan. He joined the Bank’s advisory committee

earlier this year. And he is also chief executive of the American

Wind Energy Association, represents many companies that have received Ex-Im support.

The revolving door between Boeing and the government is especially troubling. Corey Golden is the senior director of Boeing. Before that, he was a loan officer at the Export-Import Bank, overseeing relationships with foreign airlines. So now think about this:

He worked for Ex-Im, which gives 40 percent of its financing to

Boeing, and now he works for Boeing. Such a deal.

There is also Bill Daley, who resigned from Boeing’s board of directors in January 2011 to become White House Chief of Staff. And

former Secretary of Commerce, John Bryson, who left Boeing’s

board to join the Obama cabinet.

In 2006, then-Senator Obama called the Bank out for being a

fund for corporate welfare. In 2012 the President spoke at a Boeing

plant and joked that he deserved a gold watch because, ‘‘I am selling your stuff all the time.’’

Corporate connectedness, corporate cronyism. And there is also

just flat-out corruption at the Ex-Im Bank. Just yesterday, a

former employee of the Bank was indicted for bribery. Last summer, this committee held a hearing related to numerous investigations into fraud at the Bank. Two officials were accused of accepting gifts and kickbacks from companies seeking export financing.

One of these employees, an official with significant responsibility

over decisions to award taxpayer-backed export assistance, is accused of accepting cash payments from an applicant company. That

is a nice way of saying ‘‘bribes.’’

Two more officials were accused of improperly awarding contracts to favorite companies. All four employees referred to the ExIm Bank’s Office of Inspector General, and the investigation is cur-
8

rently being handled jointly by the IG and the Department of Justice.

Given these issues, many have asked, is the Bank fixable? In

2012, Congress engaged in the noble task of attempting to reform

the dysfunction at the Bank. Mr. Hochberg, our guests, and others

this morning are likely to say that the Bank has implemented the

reforms. I respectfully disagree. And I think the GAO has some

concerns about what they haven’t done, as well. The heart of the

matter, however, is that the Bank’s very existence is anathema to

free enterprise and American values.

Members of Congress will face many difficult decisions and tough

votes in the months and years ahead. But reauthorization of the

Ex-Im Bank is not one of them. This is an easy call. This Bank is

corrupt and it should be eliminated. It should be allowed to wind

down in the natural course of events and not be reauthorized.

And with that, I yield back.

We will now recognize our witnesses. And thank you all again for

being here.

We will start with Mr. Hochberg. Mr. Fred Hochberg is the chairman and president of the U.S. Export-Import Bank. The Honorable

Nathan Sheets is the Under Secretary for International Affairs at

the U.S. Department of the Treasury. Mr. Mike McCarthy is the

acting inspector general at the U.S. Export-Import Bank. We have

Mr. Mark Thorum, assistant inspector general for inspections and

evaluations at the Ex-Im Bank. And Ms. Kimberly Gianopoulos is

the Director of International Affairs and Trade at the U.S. Government Accountability Office.

Again, welcome to all of you. We swear folks in here in this committee. So if you will please stand, and raise your right hand.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Let the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you. You may be seated.

Mr. Hochberg, we will start with you. You have all done this before. You get 5 minutes. You have the lighting system there, the

clock in front of you. Try to keep it as close as you can because we

have five witnesses, and I think four of you are actually going to

be making opening statements.

Mr. Hochberg, you are recognized for your 5 minutes.

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE FRED P. HOCHBERG, PRESIDENT AND CHAIRMAN, EXPORT-IMPORT BANK OF THE

UNITED STATES

Mr. HOCHBERG. Thank you. Chairmen, Ranking Members, and

distinguished members of the subcommittees, thank you for inviting me to testify about the progress that Ex-Im has made over the

past several years.

In May of 2012, Ex-Im was reauthorized with overwhelming bipartisan support: 330 Members in the House; and 78 in the Senate.

Since then, the Bank has continued to support U.S. private sector

job growth, including 164,000 jobs in the last year alone.

We also generated revenue for the taxpayers, including $675 million we sent to Treasury for deficit reduction.
9

Over the past 3 years, we have implemented each and every requirement called for in our 2012 reauthorization. In 2012, Congress

required Ex-Im to do the following.

Submit a business plan and a textile report. Both were submitted

in the fall of 2012. I have all of those reports right here.

Monitor and report default rates. We have issued 12 quarterly

reports. Provide Federal Register notices for transactions exceeding $100

million. We have posted 88.

Publish economic impact procedures and methodology. We updated and implemented new standards in April of 2013.

Examine the Bank’s support for small business and issue a report. We submitted a report in November of 2012. And small businesses directly accounted for nearly 90 percent of all transactions

and about 39 percent of the exports we financed by dollar value in

2014.

Include a textile representative on our advisory committee, a position now held by the president of Morrison Textiles of Fort Lawn,

South Carolina.

Develop formal due diligence and know-your-customer standards

for lender partners. Both were completed in May of 2014.

Add a non-subordination requirement to our policy handbook.

This was published in January of 2013.

Categorize the purpose of loans and guarantees. This is now included in the annual report.

Review and report on our content policy. That was completed in

May of 2013.

Update and expand Iran sanction certifications. That was completed in September of 2012.

Update our IT systems. We have updated our computer hardware and software, and have hired a new chief information officer.

Provide a report on the implementation of GAO recommendations. That was completed in November of 2012.

Congress required Treasury to negotiate an end to export credit

financing. They have issued three annual reports to Congress on

their progress.

And finally, GAO and the IG were asked to do several studies,

which they too completed.

In my written testimony, I have further detailed how we have

implemented all of these requirements.

Having run a small business, I know how important it is to continually identify and become stronger and sleeker as an institution.

The oversight provided by Congress, the IG, and the GAO has

helped us to do just that.

Since the 2012 reauthorization, GAO has submitted a total of 16

recommendations, and we agreed with all of them.

Another part in our efforts to improve has been the IG. And I

value the IG’s role. I meet with him once a month. And our chief

risk officer meets with him far more frequently. Since 2012, the IG

has issued 142 recommendations. Ex-Im fully concurrs with 140,

and we are working together on the last two.

Additionally, Ex-Im has proactively implemented risk management improvements to further ensure we remain faithful stewards

of taxpayer dollars. I am just going to name two: we increased
10

staffing in our asset management division by 33 percent; and we

implemented mandatory ethics training for all employees that goes

well beyond Federal requirements.

Let me take a moment to thank our employees, the inspector

general, and the Department of Justice for the work they have

done to expose and address an incident of improper activity at the

Bank, which was made public yesterday. Let me repeat, we have

zero tolerance for waste, fraud, and abuse at Ex-Im.

Our focus on risk management is demonstrated by our low default rate of 0.174 percent as of December 2014. While our transactions rarely default, when they do, claims are made by fees and

interest paid by Bank customers, not taxpayers.

So in closing, let me add there are 59 other export credit agencies around the world aggressively fighting for jobs in their countries. While we consider past and future reforms, I trust the committee will keep in mind this global competition.

And we appreciate the committee’s interest. I look forward to

working with you to continue empowering your constituents to export more and hire more American workers. Thank you. And I look

forward to answering your questions.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Hochberg can be found on page

89 of the appendix.]

Chairman JORDAN. Thank you.

Mr. Sheets?

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE NATHAN SHEETS, UNDER

SECRETARY FOR INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Mr. SHEETS. Chairman Jordan, Chairman Huizenga, Ranking

Member Moore, Ranking Member Cartwright, and distinguished

members of the subcommittees, thank you for the opportunity to

testify today on efforts of the Treasury and the Administration to

discipline the use of government export financing.

Treasury has been and continues to be guided by three core principles in this effort. First, there should be a level playing field for

U.S. exporters, allowing them to compete based on the quality and

price of their goods and services, rather than on the generosity of

any government-supported financing.

Second, China and other large emerging market economies,

which now account for a major share of all official export financing,

should participate in and abide by an international rules-based

framework.

And third, the terms and conditions of official export credits

should be as market-oriented as possible to limit trade distortions

and help ensure that this support complements, rather than crowds

out, market financing.

As we pursue these efforts, we recognize that curtailing U.S. export financing unilaterally could undermine our exporters’ ability

to compete, potentially causing them to lose business to foreign

competitors whose governments continue to provide that support,

as well as potentially resulting in the loss of American jobs.

Moreover, unilateral action by the United States without similar

moves by foreign governments could weaken our ability to negotiate more robust disciplines with counterparts abroad.
11

Fundamental changes have occurred in the global export finance

landscape over the past decade. Chief among them has been a dramatic increase in official export financing provided by China and

other large emerging market economies that do not participate in

the OECD’s arrangement on officially-supported export credits. Unless these countries operate within the international export framework, U.S. exporters could face an uneven playing field.

Bringing all major providers of official export financing, including

China and the large emerging market economies, into an international rules-based framework is an essential step. Consistent

with this, we are making meaningful progress multilaterally

through the International Working Group on Export Credits and

bilaterally with China in our strategic and economic dialogue.

Most recently, during President Obama’s November 2014 visit,

China committed to take all steps necessary to advance the IWG

initiative and to support comprehensive guideline coverage.

With respect to the aircraft sector, the United States has worked

for years to make the international guidelines on official export financing more market-oriented. These efforts have led most recently

to the 2011 aircraft sector understanding, which substantially improved on the previous understandings in a number of ways, the

most important being adoption of a system for pricing borrower

risk that adjusts quarterly in response to evolving market conditions.

We believe that the market-oriented nature of the 2011 ASU has

contributed to a meaningful decline in demand for official export financing for aircraft. Even as the overall number of aircraft deliveries has increased since the 2011 ASU went fully into effect in

2013, we have seen both: one, a sharply falling proportion of large

aircraft deliveries financed with official support globally; and two,

a significant decline in Ex-Im Bank financing for U.S. exports of

large aircraft. Even so, we will continue to explore opportunities to

make additional progress.

Now, let me conclude. Since 2012, we have worked to discipline

the use of government export financing support in a way that minimizes trade distortions, helps ensure that government export financing complements market financing, and contributes to a level

playing field for U.S. stakeholders.

In sum, progress, although sometimes incremental, is indeed

being made. And achieving further gains is a top priority for Treasury and the Administration in the period ahead.

And I am happy to take your questions.

[The prepared statement of Under Secretary Sheets can be found

on page 141 of the appendix.]

Chairman JORDAN. Thank you.

Mr. McCarthy?

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL T. MCCARTHY, ACTING INSPECTOR

GENERAL, EXPORT-IMPORT BANK OF THE UNITED STATES,

ACCOMPANIED BY MARK S. THORUM, ASSISTANT INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR INSPECTIONS AND EVALUATIONS, EXPORT-IMPORT BANK OF THE UNITED STATES

Mr. MCCARTHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12

I am pleased to be here to present the work of the Ex-Im Bank

Office of Inspector General. I am joined by my colleague, Mark

Thorum, who is the assistant IG for inspections and evaluations.

You have our written testimony, which highlights the work that

our professional auditors, inspectors, and special agents have done

to promote efficiency and detect and deter fraud at Ex-Im Bank.

Let me briefly cover a few highlights.

Every year, we review our work and identify the top management challenges facing the Bank. Last fall, the OIG reported that

the top challenge was managing risk, specifically, managing the

Bank’s core business activities to reduce the risk of loss to the

Treasury and, by extension, the taxpayer.

To manage that risk, we have recommended that the Bank

should design an agency-wide risk management framework so that

in addition to rating the risk of any individual transaction, the

Bank is also evaluating and mitigating the risks generated by the

overall composition of the portfolio and any outsized exposures that

the Bank has in certain regions, industry sectors, or single companies.

To accomplish this, we have recommended a chief risk officer,

which the Bank has established. The Bank has also conducted

stress testing and monitoring of exposure levels. We hope the Bank

will build on these steps by developing and implementing key risk

policies, covering both credit and non-credit risks.

We have also recommended improvements to due diligence and

know-your-customer policies. And the Bank has deployed improvements in those areas.

Finally, we have previously found that internal policies providing

clear guidance to staff have not been prevalent at Ex-Im Bank. So

we recommended that the Bank rely more on clear policies, controls, and documentation, and less on institutional knowledge.

Many of our recommendations have been for specific internal control policies, which the Bank is working on implementing.

Other critical challenges facing Ex-Im Bank are human capital

management and information technology management. Without the

ability to recruit and retain employees with the knowledge to execute complex financial transactions, and without an IT system that

produces the data necessary to provide timely service, effectively

manage and track programs, and conduct portfolio risk analysis,

the Bank will be held back from accomplishing its mission of financing U.S. exports and domestic jobs.

The 2012 reauthorization legislation included several provisions

to increase reporting and transparency for Ex-Im programs. We

have summarized our relevant work on those provisions in the

written testimony. And we are happy to answer questions on those

topics.

I know the committees are interested in issues of fraud and corruption as they affect Ex-Im Bank. Our investigative unit gets results in this area. Since 2009, OIG investigations have yielded 80

criminal indictments and informations, 47 convictions, $288 million

in judgments, and 600 referrals of investigative intelligence back to

the Bank for enhanced due diligence.

The most common fraud schemes that we have encountered involve outside parties obtaining loans or guarantees through false
13

representations and submission of false documents. Generally, our

caseload has been external, not internal. But last summer, the

committee was interested in reports that Ex-Im Bank employees

had been removed or suspended based on OIG investigations. At

that time, we could not provide additional information, but have

since reported back to the committees on two closed administrative

cases.

And earlier this week, the Justice Department filed a bribery

charge against a former Ex-Im loan officer. This is part of an ongoing investigation and a pending court preceding. So I hope you will

understand that I am unable to provide details beyond the public

court documents on that particular case. We expect that more information will be available in the near future. And we will share

that with Congress as soon as it is legal and appropriate to do to.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. And we are happy

to answer questions.

[The joint prepared statement of Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Thorum

can be found on page 130 of the appendix.]

Chairman JORDAN. Thank you.

Do I understand, Mr. Thorum, that you are not going to make

an opening statement?

Mr. THORUM. That is correct.

Chairman JORDAN. Okay. Thank you for being here.

Ms. Gianopoulos, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

TESTIMONY OF KIMBERLY GIANOPOULOS, DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND TRADE, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairmen Jordan and Huizenga, Ranking Members Cartwright

and Moore, and members of the subcommittees, thank you for the

opportunity to be here today to discuss our recent work on the Export-Import Bank.

Since the Bank’s 2012 reauthorization, GAO has issued several

reports on the Bank’s operations. In my statement today, I will

cover the following three areas: first, portfolio risk management;

second, underwriting and fraud prevention processes; and third, exposure forecasting and reporting on estimates of the Bank’s impact

on U.S. jobs.

First, I would like to talk about our work related to the Bank’s

portfolio risk management. In our reports dated March 2013 and

May 2013, we identified a number of weaknesses related to loss estimation, vintage analysis, stress testing, sub-portfolio reporting,

workload benchmarks, and resources for congressional mandates.

For example, we found that the short-term forecast the Bank

used to account for global economic changes could lead to underestimation of credit subsidy costs and loss reserves and allowances.

We recommended that the Bank assess whether it was using the

best available data for adjusting its loss estimates. As a result, in

November 2013 it incorporated a longer-term forecast of global economic change into its loss estimation model.

Overall, with regard to portfolio risk management, all six recommendations we made have been closed as implemented. Additionally, while we did not make any recommendations in our July
14

2014 report on wide-body jets, we reported information about the

Bank’s aircraft finance portfolio, as well as the financing by other

credit agencies of these aircraft.

As of March 31, 2014, the Bank’s financial exposure in wide-body jets was $32 billion, representing about 28 percent of its overall financial exposure.

The second area I would like to discuss is the Bank’s underwriting and fraud prevention processes. In September 2014, we

found that the Bank implemented many key aspects of its underwriting process. However, we identified some weaknesses in this

process, as well as related documentation issues. For example, the

Bank did not have procedures to ensure that applicants did not

have delinquent Federal debt.

We also noted weaknesses in the Bank’s documentation of overall

procedures related to fraud. Based on the Bank’s responses, we are

taking steps to close four of the six recommendations as implemented, and we are reviewing the Bank’s response to the final two

recommendations.

In our August 2014 annual report on the Bank’s monitoring of

exports with a dual civilian and military use, we found that the

Bank had financed three dual-use transactions in Fiscal Year 2012.

However, we noted that the Bank did not have complete and timely

information about whether the items were actually being used in

accordance with the terms of the agreements and Bank policy.

Therefore, we recommended that the Bank establish steps for staff

to take when borrowers did not submit required documentation

within required timeframes, and to ensure that these efforts are

well-documented.

We are in the midst of this year’s review of the Bank’s dual-use

monitoring. And we will assess the Bank’s progress in our upcoming report.

Finally, in two reports issued during May 2013, we found weaknesses in both the Bank’s exposure forecasting and its reporting of

jobs supported. With regard to exposure forecasting, we noted that

the Bank had not reassessed its forecasting assumptions to reflect

changing conditions, nor had it conducted sensitivity analyses to

assess and report the range of potential outcomes.

In response, the Bank put in place new methodologies and created statistical models to validate its forecasts. So we consider

these recommendations closed.

We noted that the Bank had not reported the limitations in its

calculations of the jobs supported by its financing. We recommended that the Bank improve reporting on the assumptions

and limitations in the methodology and data used. The Bank’s 2013

and 2014 annual reports included greater detail on these issues.

And therefore, we consider this recommendation closed.

This concludes my opening remarks. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify. And I am happy to answer any questions the

committees may have.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Gianopoulos can be found on

page 70 of the appendix.]

Chairman JORDAN. Thank you.

The gentleman from Michigan is recognized for 5 minutes for

questions.
15

Chairman HUIZENGA. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

And actually, Ms. Gianopoulos, I want to make sure I heard you

correctly. So, based on a 2014 report, you said that their portfolio

is weighted to a 28 percent exposure to wide-body aircraft, is that

correct?

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. That is correct.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Okay. Do you believe that this Bank could

pass a Federal Reserve stress test?

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. I understand that the Bank is engaged in

stress testing of its portfolio now. I don’t know what the current

status is or if it could pass those types of judgments. We haven’t

done work in that area.

Chairman HUIZENGA. It seems to me that portfolio risk—which

has been identified multiple times—a lack of economic forecasting;

if you talk to any other bank, they have multiple models that are

going forward, oftentimes getting castigated that they haven’t

added another or used a particular one—ability to repay examinations. Have any of those things been done, to your knowledge?

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. My understanding is that the Bank has focused on its estimates for its potential losses. And I know there are

some updates to the Bank’s processes with regard to both our recommendations and the IG’s recommendations over the past few

years since the reauthorization.

Chairman HUIZENGA. How about reserve funds?

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. I am not aware of updates to the processes for

reserve funds.

Chairman HUIZENGA. I guess with a taxpayer guarantee, maybe

they don’t have to worry about reserve funds, which would be nice

for some of the other banks. I am sure that they would be interested in that.

But Mr. Sheets, a quick question for you, as well. I think you

aptly laid out in 2011 that there was an ‘‘understanding’’ for more

orderly categorization or dealing with how these wide-body aircraft

deals were moving forward. It strikes me that if this is a decline,

I would hate to see what an acceleration of those would be, if 28

percent of the portfolio is already weighted to wide-body aircraft.

But you didn’t mention the 2012 directive in the reauthorization,

which specifically mentioned a discussion with the European Union

about this particular situation. Why not? Why has that not been

pursued?

Mr. SHEETS. Thank you. The discussion has, in fact, been carried

on with our European counterparts about wide-body aircraft.

Chairman HUIZENGA. But you didn’t talk about that at all; is

that just an oversight or—

Mr. SHEETS. I do believe it has, but not with the same emphasis.

At the end of last year, our lead negotiator spoke to counterparts

from Germany, France, and the United Kingdom, which are the

countries that are our major competitors, about the scope—

Chairman HUIZENGA. Just so I understand, at the end of 2014,

Treasury finally initiated that discussion?

Mr. SHEETS. I came to Treasury in 2014. But my understanding

is that this has been an ongoing dialogue that we have had. And

the major challenge we have, at least so far, is that these foreign
16

counterparts are not enthusiastic about moving in this direction.

But we are vigorously—

Chairman HUIZENGA. The interesting thing is I have a fair number of contacts in Europe in the legislative branches. They are interested in pursuing that, as well. Europe is as, if not even more,

broken than the United States. And I think that is absolutely imperative.

Mr. Hochberg, in my remaining minute, minute-and-a-half

here—actually, before we do that—

The OIG—Mr. Thorum, it seems this might be falling into your

category. You did a audit in 2012 of reauthorization, looking back

at 2010 through 2012 prior to the requirement of the 2012 authorization. And according to your report, on page seven, ‘‘We found

that the loan files did not include sufficient documentation to substantiate the applicant’s assertions for their need for Ex-Im Bank

financing. At the time, Ex-Im Bank loan officers stated that the

need for Ex-Im Bank financing was done through verbal and email

communications, and detailed documentation was not required.’’

I believe Mr. McCarthy had laid out that there had been some

improvements. However, you also say at the top of that paragraph—this is the first full paragraph on page seven—the OIG has

not audited Ex-Im Bank’s categorization in reporting of the purpose

of loans and long-term loan guarantees required by the authorization. Why in the world not?

Mr. MCCARTHY. So we had the—

Chairman HUIZENGA. My question is actually directed to Mr.

Thorum, unless it is somehow more appropriate—

Mr. MCCARTHY. It is actually—it is not his report. It is one of

our audit reports. And he is responsible for inspection reports.

So we did the direct loan audit. And that was based—it was after

the 2012 reauthorization, but it was looking back at the 2010 to

2012 timeframe. So what we had in that report is we have had recommendations in order to put more—

Chairman HUIZENGA. So why have you not followed through on

that, as you were directed to in 2012?

Mr. MCCARTHY. In the 2012 reauthorization, we are continuing

to review all of these internal control issues. We haven’t looked at

that—

Chairman HUIZENGA. That was nearly—it was 21⁄2 years ago. It

would seem to me that if red flags went up from auditing what had

happened in 2010 through 2012, and you are directed to do audits

of the categorization, which it appears are well off the mark, why

are you not having that done now?

Mr. MCCARTHY. I don’t read that provision as a requirement. I

know OIG audited that particular area. I believe it is a requirement for the Bank reporting. And we are reviewing the Bank reporting in that area and adding it to our risk-based audit planing.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania is recognized.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Hochberg, again, thank you for being here today. I

would like to ask you a few questions about the Ex-Im Bank and
17

how it benefits Americans. The Export-Import Bank finances exports of U.S. products. Am I correct in that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Yes, sir.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. And Ex-Im Bank financing helps U.S. companies compete in the global marketplace, does it not?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Correct. Exactly.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Bank financing supports billions of dollars in

exports by U.S. businesses and hundreds of thousands of American

jobs. Am I correct in that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Correct; 164,000 last year.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. This is a Bank that operates at no cost to the

U.S. taxpayer. And in Fiscal Year 2014, it actually generated a surplus to the tune of $674.7 million for U.S. taxpayers. Am I correct

on that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is correct, as well.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Now, the Bank’s default rate, I think you said

in your testimony, was 0.174 percent. Did you say that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is correct.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. You probably heard my opening statement.

And I said the Bank’s default rate was 0.175 percent. So I find that

I have actually defamed you to the tune of one one-thousandth of

a percent. And to that very extent, I apologize, Mr. Hochberg. Is

it 0.174 percent?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That was the default rate as of December 2014.

And we report that to Congress every 90 days.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. My own view is this: It is hard to understand

how reauthorizing this hugely successful part of our American Government, something that benefits Americans to the extent you have

described and the U.S. economy the way it does, could possibly be

a controversial issue. But here we are. Some people choose to ignore these facts and risk creating a disadvantage for U.S. businesses, U.S. manufacturing companies, and U.S. services seeking to

compete in the global marketplace.

But the efforts of the Bank to reform and to comply with the

GAO—by the way, the GAO is highly respected here in the Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

Chairman Hochberg, the Ex-Im Bank has implemented how

many of the requirements in the 2012 reauthorization? I think

there were 18 requirements. How many were done?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I enumerated each and every one of them. We

have complied with every one of the requirements of the 2012 reauthorization.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. And the GAO has issued 5 reports since 2012

with 16 recommendations, 15 of which have been addressed, and

the Bank is working to address that one remaining recommendation. Am I correct on that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is correct.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. The Ex-Im Bank inspector general has made

142 recommendations. And of 142, how many has the Ex-Im Bank

concurred with?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have concurred with 140 of the 142. The last

two are in discussion, ongoing conversations.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. And I think Mr. McCarthy mentioned that, as

well, in his testimony.
18

Let me ask you this: Has the Bank been cooperative in working

with GAO and also the IG on addressing concerns in unresolved

recommendations? And can you explain what they are?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have been working closely with the IG—the

inspector general. As I mentioned, I meet with the inspector general once a month at a formal meeting. And our chief risk officer

meets with him more frequently.

We have concurred with 140 recommendations. There are two

outstanding ones we are still in discussion on to find the right common ground so it is workable and also meets the needs of exporters

and creating jobs.

And with the Government Accountability Office, we concurred

with all, and the last one we are still in discussion on. And that

one was only issued last August. So it is a rather recent report

from GAO.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you, Chairman Hochberg. It is not clear

what concerns exist with this Bank’s efforts to reform. But I do

hope Members today have learned of this Bank’s high performance

in implementing reforms and have some assurance that the Bank

will continue to address oversight concerns that strengthen the

Bank’s procedures and minimize the risk of fraud or taxpayer

losses.

And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman.

I recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma.

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Hochberg, Under Secretary Sheets, let’s talk for a moment again about this set of requirements in the 2012 reauthorization bill. And specifically, let’s focus on the ones that have not been

implemented yet. Could you expand on what you have not done yet

to fully implement the 2012 reauthorization bill?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Are you addressing me?

Mr. LUCAS. Both of you, actually, since the requirements are

placed on both the Bank and on Treasury.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have—I tried to outline each of the requirements that were set forth in 2012. And I gave a date on each one

that we have either complied, sent a report, or changed our policies

and procedures. And I have copies of these reports here: default reports; competitor’s reports; reports on content; economic impact;

Federal Register; and so forth.

Mr. LUCAS. So from your perspective, when will all of the requirements be implemented, since you say you are working diligently to implement them all?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have implemented the requirements of Congress. The work with the Government Accountability Office and the

inspector general will always be ongoing.

As I mentioned, one of the most—we got one report from GAO

as recently as August. The IG, we have a large IG staff, so we are

constantly getting recommendations, frankly, to make us a better

bank. To make us operate better.

Mr. LUCAS. So chairman, you have implemented your requirements.

Secretary, what about the requirements for Treasury in the 2012

reauthorization?
19

Mr. SHEETS. As I articulated in my statement, we are working

across a number of dimensions to implement the mandate, which

we take extremely seriously. We are, as I described, working with

the International Working Group to bring in the emerging market

economies. We are working with Ex-Im to vigorously implement

the ASU, which is reduce the quantity of export credits significantly. So we feel that we are on a convergent path consistent with

the mandate.

Mr. LUCAS. So, Secretary, part of that is, I think, what most of

the Members would refer to as a Section 11 requirement. How

much enthusiasm do you truly have from your colleagues around

the world about doing something in reference to their, what, 24 or

so of these institutions?

Mr. SHEETS. At this stage, the negotiations in the International

Working Group—which I really see as being a key part of what we

are doing here, trying to bring in the emerging market economies,

which are increasingly important providers of export credits—are

tough, ongoing negotiations. For many of these countries, they have

not been in negotiations regarding export credits before. And as a

result of this, these negotiations are slow. But we are making

progress.

Mr. LUCAS. So our competitors around the world at this point are

willing to talk about it, but nobody is taking any concrete action

in stepping away from these programs?

Mr. SHEETS. To be clear, the advanced economies that are members of the OECD are bound by the OECD understanding and are

operating with similar rules.

But the objective of the IWG is for the emerging markets, to

bring them in. And we are negotiating with them through the IWG.

But this is also a subject of a vigorous bilateral negotiation. As I

mentioned in the S&ED, when President Obama was recently in

China. So we are making progress.

Mr. LUCAS. But Mr. Secretary, aren’t some of the largest economic players in this non-OECD members? Say the Chinese, perhaps?

Mr. SHEETS. Exactly—

Mr. LUCAS. —with the sheer amount of resources they can throw

in the fight the way they play the competitive game?

Mr. SHEETS. Yes. Yes, sir. That is why we are engaged in this

new process, the IWG, which is intended to expand the periphery

of countries that are bound by these export credit understandings.

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

I would just note to my colleagues in what little remaining time

I have, that perhaps I have a perspective slightly different than a

number of my friends on both sides of the room.

But if the biggest economic players refuse to step back from this

kind of a system, I have a real hesitation about giving the field

away. I have a real hesitation about that. And I would say that at

some point this year, this issue will be addressed legislatively. I

would encourage my colleagues: Reform is the key. We have to

make reforms.

But this is an institution we will be voting on before this year

is out. Let’s take advantage of this opportunity. A discussion about
20

ending something that none of our competitors are willing to do

doesn’t seem like the rational economic choice.

I yield back the balance of my time, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman.

The gentlelady from Wisconsin is recognized.

Ms. MOORE. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.

And I, once again, want to thank all of the witnesses for appearing. It seems to me, based on all the testimony I have heard, that

the Ex-Im Bank has really worked very diligently and effectively

at adhering to the 2012 mandates.

I do have a question, though, for you, Mr. McCarthy. I would

hope that you would return to Wisconsin at some point to engage

in your birthplace’s stuff. That is not why we are here today. But

I would hope that you would do that.

I have been very impressed. I was impressed with your testimony

with regard to the extent that the IG has looked into the operations of the Ex-Im Bank, even to the point that they have—that

there has now been an indictment of an Ex-Im employee. I sure

wish that you guys had gotten to the HSBC of their money laundering, drug dealers, the London will, and stopped the 2008 prices.

But at least we got this one Ex-Im employee.

We have heard a lot of testimony that the Ex-Im Bank has

shown favoritism for projects based on political connections and

electoral politics. So I was wondering if you discovered any of that

in your investigations. Crony capitalism?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Generally, our investigations have been of outside parties perpetrating fraud and money laundering schemes

against the Bank. We haven’t reviewed specific allegations that we

have received in specific cases where there was some type of undue

political influence or things of that nature.

Ms. MOORE. You have not found that?

Mr. MCCARTHY. We have not found that. Now, we do emphasize

that the Bank needs to make sure that it has in place the appropriate internal controls to make sure that things like that can’t

happen. If you have the proper policies in place, if you have separations of duties among employees, if you have procedures in place,

it lessens the risk for that type of undue influence, and also fraud

cases.

Ms. MOORE. All right sir, thank you so much.

Mr. Sheets from Treasury, again, I want to thank you for your

due diligence. You are currently negotiating with other countries to

limit or end export credit. Were we not to reauthorize the Bank on

the 30th of June, as some Members of our body would like, do you

think that countries like Korea or China will voluntarily end their

credit support programs? The other, what is it, 59 countries? If we

were just to disappear from this space?

Mr. SHEETS. I think that would be very unlikely. And indeed, if

we were to unilaterally curtail, I think that there is a risk, as I

have indicated, that in negotiations going forward we will have less

leverage because we won’t have anything to give in those negotiations.

So I think it is important from a level playing field standpoint

that we remain engaged on this. But also, if our ultimate goal is
21

to further discipline export credits, a unilateral curtailment would

very likely move in the opposite—

Ms. MOORE. Would it be catastrophic? Those are my words.

Mr. SHEETS. —from a global standpoint.

Ms. MOORE. Would it be catastrophic to our economy?

Mr. SHEETS. I think it would be very negative and adverse. How

we define catastrophic—

Ms. MOORE. All right. That is my definition. I am from Milwaukee. And we are the manufacturers of the world. We have Boeing, and all of these companies with which people have issues. Boeing doesn’t make any screws and bolts and nuts and—they come

from Milwaukee, small businesses.

We have heard that 99 percent of the small businesses don’t use

Ex-Im Bank. But isn’t it true that 89 percent of the loans you guys

make are to small businesses, Mr. Hochberg?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Yes, they are.

Ms. MOORE. Okay. What do you mean, Mr. Hochberg, when you

say that the operations at the Bank are ‘‘demand-driven?’’ And how

do you supplement private finance? Can you walk us through that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Certainly. Demand-driven is that companies

come to us. For example, you and I visited Maxim Industries in

Wisconsin, a company that makes construction equipment. They

come to us when they are trying to sell overseas and can’t get financing locally or their competitors overseas have governmentbacked loans, so they want to make sure they are on a level playing field.

So when I say ‘‘demand,’’ they come to us, they seek us out only

when they need us. And we can fill in the gap that the private—

Ms. MOORE. Maxim has 30 employees. And they have worked on

projects like the Panama Canal, with 30 employees in Milwaukee.

Thank you. And I yield back.

Chairman JORDAN. Before recognizing the gentleman from South

Carolina, I just want clarification on an answer. The gentlelady

talked about undue political influence.

Mr. McCarthy, did you say you have not found that, or you have

not looked into that?

Mr. MCCARTHY. I am saying that we haven’t received specific allegations that we have substantiated on that. We are always happy

to look—

Chairman JORDAN. So you have not looked into it? You don’t

know?

Mr. MCCARTHY. From time to time, we have looked into various

allegations.

Chairman JORDAN. Which is it? You have looked into it, or you

haven’t looked it into?

Mr. MCCARTHY. We have looked into it from time to time, but we

have not substantiated it.

Chairman JORDAN. Okay. Thank you.

The gentleman from South Carolina is recognized.

Mr. MULVANEY. Mr. Hochberg, for the benefit of my colleagues

who have not had the pleasure before of sitting in on our discussions, I thought I would review and summarize some of the previous testimony you and I have gone over when you have been

here, as quickly as I can.
22

Mr. Cartwright mentioned the low default rate at the Export-Im- port Bank. The Bank still has $36 million worth of pre-Castro

Cuban debt on the books, don’t you, as a performing loan? The answer to that is yes, you still have it. And my guess is we probably

didn’t address it when we changed—normalized relations. But it is

still on the books as a good loan.

You talk about the 164,000 jobs that the Bank supposedly supports. It is always an interesting use of language. It doesn’t create;

it supports. You still don’t have any clue as to how many of those

are actually in the United States, do you?

Mr. HOCHBERG. All of those jobs are in the United States, sir.

Mr. MULVANEY. The GAO has said on several occasions that the

method by which you count jobs does not adequately account for

the jobs of the foreign components of American exports.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We actually only look at the U.S. content. And

as a result of that, adjust our jobs numbers, which we receive—we

use data from the Bureau of Labor—

Mr. MULVANEY. You have no idea how many of those jobs would

cease to exist if the Bank is not reauthorized, do you?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. I would differ with you on that. Companies

come to us, like Maxim Industries I just mentioned, when they

can’t—

Mr. MULVANEY. How many would cease to exist?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Every application makes a statement in the application—

Mr. MULVANEY. How many of the 164,000 jobs that you say you

support would cease to exist if the Bank is not reauthorized? You

don’t know the answer—

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would say all of them. Because the application

requires you to state that you have come to us as the lender of last

resort.

Mr. MULVANEY. I will accept ‘‘all of them’’ as an answer. But I

will disagree with it.

You don’t know how many jobs you destroyed, do you? You were

here previously and heard testimony from Delta Airlines that you

destroyed 7,500 jobs at Delta. You don’t count that in your 164,000,

do you?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We actually look at—we do an economic impact

study, sir, that is required by law.

Mr. MULVANEY. You have done one of those on an airplane sale

in the last 20 years. How can you say you—

Mr. HOCHBERG. We review every single transaction for economic

impact. And when warranted, we do an in-depth study.

Mr. MULVANEY. Once in the last 20 years.

The GAO report said that one of the shortcomings they found at

the Bank a few years ago was that when a third-party lender gets

involved on an Export-Import Bank-guaranteed loan, they don’t do

adequate credit checks. They stop doing the credit checks. If Boeing

is going to sell an airline to Ethiopia, the Bank doesn’t look at the

credit of Ethiopia, because they simply rely on the government

guarantee. You were supposed to fix that a couple of years ago.

That is one of the things you haven’t fixed yet, have you?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We do a full underwriting—using the example of

Ethiopian Airways—which, by the way, supports thousands and
23

thousands of U.S. jobs, including many small businesses in the

Boeing supply chain. But when we—

Mr. MULVANEY. A checklist—

Mr. HOCHBERG. —we do a full and complete financial review and

underwriting of every—we do not rely on any outside source. We

do it ourselves.

Mr. MULVANEY. The checklist that the IG or the GAO has required or requested you to do is one of the things that remains unfinished at the Bank, isn’t?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I mentioned to you we—

Mr. MULVANEY. The answer to that question is also ‘‘yes.’’

The IG report in June of last year said that you can’t account— this is a new one for me—for $500 million worth of costs on a PNG

liquified natural gas project?

Mr. HOCHBERG. If you would like me to answer the question, I

would be happy to answer the question—

Chairman JORDAN. Can you account for the—

Mr. HOCHBERG. What we do—as an example, we make an export,

we finance an export. Some of those exports require local cost. In

this case, Exxon Mobile was the exporter. The project certified that

there was $500 million local cost, which was authorized and approved. And so there is full certification from the project sponsor

that the money was indeed incurred and spent for this project.

Mr. MULVANEY. So the IG is just wrong on that one?

Mr. HOCHBERG. The IG doesn’t like some of the documentation

we have—

Mr. MULVANEY. And speaking of documentation—this is the last

one on my list, Mr. Hochberg, and then I am finished with you.

And I know you are excited about that.

Mr. HOCHBERG. I always like talking to you.

Mr. MULVANEY. I know. And we always enjoy this, but one of the

places you fall short on documentation—I found this one to be interesting. One of the places they cited you was that you don’t do

a very good job of documenting why companies ask for Export-Import Bank participation. Why is that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Companies come to us—like I gave an example

of Maxim Industries, or I gave a number of examples here—

Mr. MULVANEY. But the IG says you don’t document that. Why

don’t you document that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. Companies have to certify on their application that they need us and why do they need us. Because they can’t

get that loan.

Mr. MULVANEY. So Mr. McCarthy, why did you cite them for that

particular shortcoming?

Mr. MCCARTHY. In the previous direct loan program audit that

we did in 2012, we did find that there was not documentation in

the files supporting the reason for the company needing Ex-Im financing. And so we made recommendations, and the Bank has

modified its procedures.

Mr. MULVANEY. Mr. Sheets, you are the lucky one here. Because

I was hoping to handle Mr. Hochberg in 2 minutes and give my

other 3 minutes to you, sir, and go over some of the discussions

with our competitors overseas on wide-body aircraft financing. But

I am out of time.
24

So I thank the chairman. And I yield back.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman.

The gentlelady from New Jersey is recognized.

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to read something to you, Mr. Hochberg. And I

would like you to tell me whether or not this is a true statement.

‘‘Although the reliance on Ex-Im Bank has diminished slightly

over the last year amid a growing economy and improvements in

the availability of private sector financing, the Bank still plays a

vital role for thousands of U.S. businesses and their workers. In

Fiscal Year 2014 alone, the Bank authorized $20.5 million of financing in support of $27.5 billion worth of U.S. exporters and

more than 164,000 U.S. jobs. Of the Bank’s 3,700 authorizations in

2014, more than 3,300—nearly 90 percent—directly served small

U.S. businesses.

‘‘Furthermore, roughly one in five authorizations completed last

year directly served women- or minority-owned businesses. As

noted above, the Bank operates on a self-sustaining basis to cover

the cost of its operations. Ex-Im Bank charges users a fee which,

over the past few decades, has generated a surplus—a surplus—resulting in payments of $6.9 billion to the U.S. Treasury. Last year

alone, the Bank generated a surplus of $674.7 million for U.S. taxpayers. This directly results in U.S. deficit reduction.’’

In other words, the failure to reauthorize the Bank would actually cost the government money. Yes or no?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That would be yes.

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. To the Treasury Department, to the IG,

and to the GAO. While I recognize that there were many findings

that the Bank had deficiencies in operations and accountability and

those kinds of things, it seemed to me from your testimony that

you have been working with the Bank in a very cooperative manner and that it is, in fact, addressing, redressing, and moving forward with those recommendations primarily that have been found

and made. Yes or no?

Mr. MCCARTHY. In terms of the IG recommendations, we have

broken out the more recent recommendations, versus the ones that

have been outstanding for 6 months or longer, so prior to October

2014. And the number on the older recommendations that we

have—and there is maybe a discrepancy of one or two between

what Mr. Hochberg is reporting on just on—because it changes by

the day.

At that point, we were reporting that there were still 29 open

and 2 unresolved recommendations, as opposed to 78 that have

been closed out of the older ones.

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Okay.

Mr. MCCARTHY. The newer ones, there are more that are still

open, because some of those reports have just been issued within

the last several weeks.

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Okay. Thank you.

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. And with regard to the GAO recommendations—

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Right.

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. —13 of those 16 recommendations have been

closed as implemented officially. For two of the recommendations,
25

we have gotten responses from the Bank. And we are on the road

to closing those imminently. And then the final recommendation is

from our report of last August, and we are working with the Bank

on addressing that.

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. I have sat in on a lot of hearings where

we have had the inspector general and the GAO speak to issues regarding departments. And this actually is the first time where I

have seen so much, what seems to be supportive language, that the

entity that is under discussion is moving in the right direction.

This is to Mr. Sheets from the Department of the Treasury. If

the Bank isn’t authorized, how will it disadvantage U.S. businesses’ ability to compete in the global market? And what are some

of the potential consequences of a unilateral action to end U.S. export financing?

Mr. SHEETS. My strong sense is that unilateral curtailment of export credits would play very adversely for the U.S. economy, for

U.S. jobs, for U.S. workers. Because essentially what we would be

doing is competing in a world where other countries are providing

these credits. And even if our goods and services were of comparable quality or even better, it may be economically advantageous for buyers in our export markets to buy foreign products.

So I think it would be very adverse for the U.S. economy and—

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Thank you. I would just like to note

that from my very small but important district of the 12th District

in New Jersey, there is a total export value of $765 million. That

sounds like a lot of money to me and—in my district. And I think

that we can look at things—you know that old adage, half full or

half empty? I believe that if we look at this in a very realistic way,

we will see that there is a half-full opportunity here to support the

economic growth in the State of New Jersey and jobs, and that we

all should be held to the same standards, whether we are asking

questions or answering questions or making statements: that we

tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentlelady.

Mr. McCarthy, who is Johnny Gutierrez?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Johnny Gutierrez is a former Ex-Im Bank loan

officer.

Chairman JORDAN. And Mr. Gutierrez was under investigation

by the inspector general’s Office and the Department of Justice?

Mr. MCCARTHY. I can report what has been filed in the public

court documents, which you referenced. On Monday, the Justice

Department filed a one-count information alleging that Mr. Gutierrez accepted bribes—

Chairman JORDAN. And the Justice Department indicted Mr.

Gutierrez this week?

Mr. MCCARTHY. They filed an information, which is the equivalent of an indictment.

Chairman JORDAN. According to the court filing, Mr. Gutierrez

on ‘‘19 separate occasions personally and corruptly sought and accepted things of personal value, i.e. money, from another person,

and entity, in return for being influenced in the performance of his

official acts.’’ And this occurred between 2006 and 2013. Is that accurate?
26

Mr. MCCARTHY. That is what the information alleges.

Chairman JORDAN. So this started in 2006. And he was indicted

when?

Mr. MCCARTHY. On Monday.

Chairman JORDAN. On Monday, in 2015?

Mr. MCCARTHY. That is correct.

Chairman JORDAN. And is there any coincidence to the fact that

he was indicted 2 days before this hearing, or did that just happen?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman, that did just happen. That is a

coincidence. This was in process prior to the hearing—

Chairman JORDAN. Starts stealing and taking bribes in 2006.

Gets indicted 2 days before a big hearing?

Mr. MCCARTHY. The process was in place—

Chairman JORDAN. Nine years later?

Mr. MCCARTHY. —announced—being announced. DOJ makes

these decisions. They will tell you that they are charging—

Chairman JORDAN. Okay. That is fine.

Mr. Hochberg, back in 2006, when Mr. Gutierrez was first starting to take bribes as an employee at your Bank, President Obama,

who was then Senator Obama, said the Export-Import Bank is little more than a fund for corporate welfare. Was he wrong?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Yes. That was—people say things in campaigns,

and they say different things when they are in office. So I am not

going to comment what was motivating then-Senator Barack

Obama—

Chairman JORDAN. That is the understatement of the year there

for this Administration. Thank you.

Mr. Hochberg, who is Diane Farrell?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Diane Farrell was a former director of the Bank

who was nominated by the President and confirmed by the U.S.

Senate.

Chairman JORDAN. Director of the Bank means she was on your

board?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Correct. She was—we have a—

Chairman JORDAN. How long was she on your board?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Her time precedes mine. So I can’t tell you precisely—

Chairman JORDAN. How long have you been there?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I have been there—this May will be 6 years.

Chairman JORDAN. My understanding is that she was on the

board for 8 years between 2007 and 2015. That doesn’t seem like

it precedes you.

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. She was not—no. Her term was up, I believe, in 2011.

Chairman JORDAN. When you have been there 6 years? If I do

the math, that means you—there was some overlap?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Of course, yes. I thought you were asking—I’m

sorry. I misunderstood the question.

Chairman JORDAN. No. You said she was there before you were.

Mr. HOCHBERG. She was there before I was.

Chairman JORDAN. Yes.

Mr. HOCHBERG. I arrived in 2009, she arrived sometime—

Chairman JORDAN. You served together, is what I am getting at.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Oh, yes. Of course.
27

Chairman JORDAN. Your answer seemed to say that you didn’t.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Oh, no. I’m sorry. I misunderstood you.

Chairman JORDAN. Where is she currently employed?

Mr. HOCHBERG. She is—my recollection is that she is at the U.S.

Indian American Chamber.

Chairman JORDAN. Do you know if she is on the board of Azure

Power?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I have no recollection.

Chairman JORDAN. My understanding is that she is. And do you

know, does Azure Power benefit from any financing from the Export-Import Bank?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Azure Power is a solar development company in

India that has been a purchaser of U.S. goods. And we have financed some of their projects.

Chairman JORDAN. You have financed some of their projects? So

a lady who was on your board is now working for a company for

which you financed projects?

Mr. HOCHBERG. It was long after she left the Export-Import

Bank.

Chairman JORDAN. She just recently left the Export-Import

Bank, correct?

Mr. HOCHBERG. She left the Export-Import Bank, as I mentioned,

sometime in 2011.

Chairman JORDAN. Okay. And so did Ms. Farrell work on any

loans that are now benefiting the employer she is with, and that

association?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I—I have—I would not be able to—

Chairman JORDAN. Could you get us that answer? That is important.

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would—we can get you that answer. I don’t

know off the top of my head what transactions she voted on during

her time as a board member.

Chairman JORDAN. Okay. And do you know where Ms. Farrell’s

husband is employed? Do you happen to know?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No, I don’t know.

Chairman JORDAN. He is employed at Boeing. Does that cause

any concern?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Actually, now that you—when Ms. Farrell was

on the board and her husband was at Boeing, she was recused from

all transactions—

Chairman JORDAN. That is nice. And we would expect that. I am

just making the point that she was working for the Export-Import

Bank giving loans and financing to the company she now works for.

And also, while she was on the board at the Export-Import Bank,

her husband worked for Boeing, which gets 40 percent of the financing from the Export-Import Bank. Now, how do you think the

normal taxpayer looks at that arrangement?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I will have to leave that to you, sir. But—

Chairman JORDAN. I can tell you, they talk to me about things.

But this is the part of government that just drives them crazy. This

kind of coziness, this kind of closeness, this kind of connectedness

drives them crazy.

You have—she is on the board. Her husband is working at Boeing. And you say oh, she recuses herself from those decisions. But
28

40 percent of all the financing goes to one company that her husband works for. And oh, by the way, she goes to work for a company that got $15 million of export-import financing after the board

approved the $15 million in financing to Azure Power. You don’t

find that a little strange?

Mr. HOCHBERG. First of all, Congressman, none of the financing

we do goes to Boeing. It goes to overseas customers who buy U.S.

products. We don’t lend money to the Boeing corporation.

Chairman JORDAN. Okay. All right. So I was mistaken. All those

people who come talk to me from Boeing, lobbyists who represent

Boeing, they don’t really care that much about the Export-Import

Bank, then? You say it is not important?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We are talking about customers, overseas customers who have a choice, Congressman, between buying a Boeing

airplane and an Airbus airplane. If we are looking—

Chairman JORDAN. So all the lobbying Boeing is doing is just out

of the goodness of their heart to help those overseas customers,

right?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We are talking about jobs in America, jobs in

Toulouse, France, or Hamburg, Germany.

Chairman JORDAN. All right. My time has expired.

I now recognize the gentlelady from California.

Ms. WATERS. Thank you very much. I really don’t have a lot of

questions. I have worked very closely with the U.S. Chamber of

Commerce, the Business Round Table, the National Foreign Trade

Council, the National Association of Manufacturers. I have met

with some of the businesses that are beneficiaries of the Ex-Im

Bank. I have met with Mr. Hochberg. I have met with my local

chambers. I have tremendous support from the California Chamber

of Commerce.

And I know the Export-Import Bank pretty well. I have spent a

lot of time learning about what they do and how they do it. And

I am convinced of the high performance, the excellent default rate,

the support for both large and small businesses and their suppliers.

And I have a real appreciation for the job creation that they are

doing. So I don’t have any questions.

There have been representations over and over again from both

sides of the aisle from various times about this Bank and the importance of this Bank. But I think I should use this time to get a

little mean and to talk about the way that this Bank has been unfairly attacked.

First of all, yes, this article, ‘‘Justice Department Charges

Former Export-Import Bank Official with Bribery.’’ We don’t support the people committing crimes or doing bad things. But do we

want to shut down the Export-Import Bank because we have a person or a few persons who have acted improperly? I don’t think so.

Because if we did that, I would have to say this: Republicans

have said that individual acts of fraud or corruption at Ex-Im Bank

proves that there is systemic fraud and corruption throughout the

Bank and for this reason, among others, the Bank should be closed.

Let me give you some examples of fraud, corruption, and abuse

of the public trust at an institution very close and dear to most

people here today. I am talking about the Congress of the United

States of America. From 1981–1989, under the Reagan Administra-
29

tion, 10 Members were convicted of bribery and conspiracy, and one

Member was convicted of perjury.

From 1989–1993, under Bush, one Member was convicted of accepting illegal gifts, and one Member was convicted of bribery.

Under Clinton, one Member was convicted of bribery, one Member

was convicted of tax evasion and extortion, and two Members were

convicted of embezzlement. Under George Bush W. Bush—2001–

2009, two Members were convicted of bribery, one Member was

convicted of money laundering, and one Member was convicted of

financial corruption. Under the Obama Administration, two Members were convicted of wire fraud, extorting or money laundering,

and one Member was convicted of tax evasion.

Does anyone believe that these individual instances of corruption

by bad actors point to systemic corruption throughout the Congress? And I also wonder if any Republican Members support shutting the House down. I don’t think so.

Let us take a look at what has not been done. We bailed out the

biggest banks in this country. I have 15 pages of fines that have

been leveled on the banks, many of whom we bailed out, from everything from market manipulation to money laundering to lending

consumer practices, mortgage-backed securities fraud, on and on

and on and on. We have not had one hearing. Not one hearing on

any of this.

But yet, we come here today and we have Mr. Mulvaney talking

about how you didn’t properly do credit checks. Mr. Mulvaney,

have you ever heard of no-documentation loans, no credit checks

that were done by the biggest banks in America who brought us

down in a subprime—

Mr. MULVANEY. Would the gentlelady yield?

Ms. WATERS. No, I won’t yield.

Mr. MULVANEY. Well, you mentioned my name, so I thought I

would ask—

Ms. WATERS. And so let me just say that this business of talking

about this very important institution to be closed down for all of

these phony reasons really is something that I cannot take seriously and the American public cannot take seriously.

And I think it was you who also said something about how our

citizens, perhaps, should be very, very disappointed with us. Oh,

no. Here is what you said: How does the average taxpayer look at

us? You are right. How do they look at us? How do they look at

us, who would attack a bank that not only is helping us to deal

with building up and expanding our ability to support exports and

businesses and create jobs, and then have Members sit here who

have not said one word about what has happened in America with

banks which are accused of and have been fined for all of these

crimes?

And you ask, how should our citizens think about us? I would

think they think we have no credibility and this must be political.

This must be about someone who is attempting to create something

that they can accuse Democrats of and make it look as if they are

taking care of the taxpayers in some extraordinary way. And it

doesn’t wash.

I yield back the balance of any time.
30

Chairman JORDAN. I would just remind the gentlelady that many

of us didn’t vote to bail out the Banks. The Constitution requires

a House of Representatives. It doesn’t require an Export-Import

Bank. And the most well-known case of a Congressperson getting

in trouble was the cash in the freezer of Mr. Jefferson, which was

related to the Export-Import Bank.

Ms. WATERS. It doesn’t measure up to the acts that have been

committed—

Chairman JORDAN. With that, I recognize the chairman of the

full Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Mr. Chaffetz.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. I thank the chairman.

Mr. Hochberg, how many employees are there at the Bank?

Mr. HOCHBERG. About 450.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. And how many of those would be loan officers?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would have to say in the range of maybe 75.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Will you provide this committee a listing

of—when you say 450, an organizational chart, as well as how

many you have in each of those slots?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would be happy to do so.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Thank you. I would appreciate it.

You are aware of the Washington Examiner story that alleges

that the Bank may have tipped off Boeing about a Freedom of Information Act request that was put forward by Delta Airlines.

Delta Airlines had made a FOIA request, but they did not publicize

it. And yet, it was revealed that Boeing knew to ask for pretty

much the exact same information 2 months before that information

became public. How could that be?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I am not sure I can answer that question. I don’t

have an answer to that—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Are you familiar with the article on March

19th?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I am vaguely aware of the article. Yes, I am.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. So there is an article saying who at the Export-Import Bank warned Boeing about a Delta FOIA, and you are

just vaguely familiar with that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. What I can say, sir, is that no employee reveals

the source—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. How do you know that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have an—we run an ethical organization,

and that is what—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. You do have more than 31 open investigations into fraud and abuse in your organization. You did have

somebody who was just indicted yesterday. So what is the case to

say that you run an ethical organization?

Mr. HOCHBERG. The 31, sir, are outside companies that have

tried to defraud the Export-Import Bank.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Mr. McCarthy, do you have any open investigations?

Mr. MCCARTHY. We have about 31 open investigations right now.

Most of them are for external fraud. Some of them are proactive

intelligence-based investigations, and some of them are internal to

the Bank.
31

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Some of them are internal. So I would take

exception to the idea that you run the most ethical organization.

As Mr. Mulvaney cited, we have had problems with this Bank in

the past, and we did just have an indictment yesterday, in this

week.

How much did you charge Delta Airlines for their FOIA request?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I don’t know the precise fees we charge. But I

can say this, Congressman—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Have you fulfilled that FOIA request?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Yes, we have fulfilled that one. And let me just—

if I could add—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. There was more than one. How much have

you charged Delta Airlines to gather information that rightfully

they should be able to see?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I will have to get back to you. I don’t know the—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Would it be $90,000?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I don’t know the charge. I can get—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Is that a wrong number? Is it more than $90,000?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I don’t know the number, sir. I don’t want to

mislead—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. When will you give us the number?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I can check and I will get back to you on that.

I can—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. When will you get back to us?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I will have to ask my council how readily do we

have that information.

I can get that to you tomorrow.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Fair enough. Thank you.

Mr. HOCHBERG. And I can add—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Of the FOIA requests that were issued by

Delta, how much of that have you fulfilled? Have you given them

100 percent? Because part of the concern is that you have charged

them and taken their $90,000-plus dollars, but you haven’t fulfilled

the FOIA request.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congressman, I don’t want to mislead you, I

don’t want to mislead the committee. I don’t have the precise facts

on that particular FOIA request.

I can add, however, that when we—the law requires that when

we have a FOIA request, we need to inform the company whose information we are revealing. So that is why Boeing was aware of

that FOIA request, because it was their information that was being

submitted to Delta.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. You are going to provide this committee

the details of that specific instance?

Mr. HOCHBERG. You asked about this—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. There are a couple of different FOI’s. But

I want to see the information about how Boeing knew in advance,

when it wasn’t public, that they knew 2 months in advance to submit their own FOI’s for the same material?

Mr. HOCHBERG. When I tried to explain this—it is my understanding of the law—I am not a lawyer—that we must inform the

company about whose information we are providing in a FOIA request.
32

Chairman CHAFFETZ. And part of the question was, did you fulfill

that FOIA request? Because I want additional details. I have 30

seconds.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have fulfilled that FOIA request—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. It is my understanding that there was

more than one FOIA request.

The Wall Street Journal reported that in the drafting of regulations related to this, they would have an ‘‘extraordinary level of coordination.’’ How do you quantify the level of coordination with

Boeing in relationship to the drafting of the regulations?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congressman, we work with every company

who—when we are doing regulation requirements that concern a

particular company. So in the case of Boeing, we happen to have

one aircraft company, so we talk to the one aircraft company. When

we are doing banking regulations, is how we—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. When was the last time you spoke with

Boeing?

Mr. HOCHBERG. The last time I spoke with Boeing?

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Yes.

Mr. HOCHBERG. They are in the room today.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. So did you speak with them today?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I said hello—I said good morning.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. When was the last time you had a substantive conversation with them?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I was in Panama with President Obama and we

signed—U.S. Boeing signed an agreement with Copa Airlines.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. And what was the value of that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. A list value of about $6.6 billion.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. I have gone past my time. Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I yield back.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman.

I now recognize Mr. Heck, the gentleman from Washington.

Mr. HECK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Hochberg, could you quickly restate for the record what your

default rate is?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Yes. Our default rate is 0.174 percent. And it is

something we send to Congress every 90 days make sure that Congress is apprised of the state of our portfolio.

Mr. HECK. To the best of your ability, could you compare that default rate to the rest of the commercial lending sector that operates

in the same space?

Mr. HOCHBERG. It is hard to get a precise benchmark. But it is,

from my understanding, 2 to 3 times lower than general commercial loans.

Mr. HECK. To the best of your recollection, could you state for the

record what your collection rate is on bad debt?

Mr. HOCHBERG. It is partly reflected in our default rate, again,

of 0.174 percent. And when something has gone in arrears, we have

generally been collecting about 50 cents on the dollar.

Mr. HECK. And can you compare that to the rest of the commercial lending?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I don’t have a precise benchmark for that. But

my understanding is it is very much on the high side.
33

Mr. HECK. Do you recall off the top of your head the last year—

are you aware of the last year in which there was an actual transfer of taxpayer money to the Export-Import Bank in the form of a

subsidy?

Mr. HOCHBERG. There has been none. We have transferred to

Treasury $6.9 billion in the last 2 decades. And most recently, in

October of this past year, $675 million.

Mr. HECK. I was asking for the reverse transfer. When is the last

time you received a subsidy? And are you aware that there have

been any subsidies since the enactment of the 1990 Credit Reform

Act?

Mr. HOCHBERG. There have been none.

Mr. HECK. Mr. Hochberg, you know that I have expended no

small amount of time on this effort. I am just one of many. As has

my friend Congressman Fincher from Tennessee and others. We

have met with you multiple times. We have met with the majority

whip’s office, the chair’s office, the chair—the ranking member of

the subcommittees—and I meant the ranking member, not the

chair—in an effort to develop legislation.

Have you or any members of your office met with Chairman

Huizenga of the subcommittee to develop or respond to or react to

proposed changes and/or reforms for reauthorization purposes?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No, I have not.

Mr. HECK. Mr. Hochberg, a difficult question, a permutation on

some of the line of questioning of Ranking Member Waters.

Sir, do you believe that Congressman Aaron Schock’s resignation

in shame from this institution is a reflection on the entire House

Republican conference?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No, I have—no, I would say not.

Mr. HECK. I don’t either.

Mr. Hochberg, are you aware that China is developing a widebody aircraft for sale into the commercial market in competition

with both Boeing and Airbus?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I have met, actually, with Comac, which is the

Chinese aircraft manufacturer. They already have 400 orders for a

narrow body. And there have been reports they are working with

the Russian aerospace industry to develop a wide-body, also to compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Mr. HECK. There have been reports to that effect. Do you believe

it to be the case?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Oh, I have no reason not to believe it. As I said,

I personally met with the CEO of the Chinese aircraft company. So

I would have a firsthand impression of their activities.

Mr. HECK. So lastly, Mr. Hochberg, would you give us a little bit

of information about how much larger the export credit authority

is in China? As a matter of fact, I think they have multiple entities. But educate us. How many export credit authorities do they

have? And aggregating them, how do they compare in size to the

Export-Import Bank?

Mr. HOCHBERG. For one, China, as we know, is not the most

transparent country in terms of its banking and financial dealings.

They have four entities that provide export support. First,

SINOSURE, which essentially provides credit insurance. That

alone has been about $670 billion in the last 2 years.
34

They also have the China Ex-Im Bank. Informally, in speaking

with their chairman, they operate between $90 billion and $100 billion a year. There is the China Development Bank, and then there

is the Chinese Agriculture Bank. So there are four entities that do

that.

Mr. HECK. I lied. I have two more quick questions.

First of all, yes or no if you can, are we already losing business

as a consequence of the cloud hanging over reauthorization of the

Export-Import Bank?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Without question.

Mr. HECK. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to request

unanimous consent to place in the record a letter from multiple

governors from both political parties throughout this country, in

support of reauthorization of the Export-Import Bank.

Chairman JORDAN. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Mr. HECK. Thank you, sir.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman.

I now recognize the chairman of the full Financial Services Committee, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Hensarling.

Chairman HENSARLING. I thank the gentleman.

I must start off by saying that I have been somewhat amused by

my friends on the other side of the aisle who decry the lack of hearings on Ex-Im and then simultaneously say they are a waste of

time.

But just for the record, Mr. Chairman, is this a hearing?

Chairman JORDAN. It most certainly is.

Chairman HENSARLING. Okay. We are in the midst of a hearing.

Mr. Hochberg, according to Ex-Im records, of the 50 largest loans

or guarantees provided by Ex-Im—I believe this was on your

watch—through the end of Fiscal Year 2014, roughly half have

gone to state-owned companies or joint ventures that include stateowned companies, including Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Pakistan,

India, Colombia, Mexico, Ethiopia, South Africa, and Poland. Do

you agree with that analysis?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I haven’t seen the data you are looking at. But

those names sound familiar.

Chairman HENSARLING. Okay. Again, these are state-owned companies or joint ventures that include state-owned companies.

There has been discussion of losing jobs to China. On your watch

in 2011, the Ex-Im Bank records show that a $75.8 million loan

was approved to a Chinese company, ICBC Financial Leasing. Its

parent company is the state-owned Industrial Commercial Bank of

China, the largest bank in the world, with reported assets of $3

trillion. Are your records correct? Did that transaction take place?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congressman, my recollection is we approved

that authorization, but there was never a disbursement. They

changed their mind on that transaction.

Chairman HENSARLING. Okay. Let’s talk about Russia. It is my

understanding—again, from perusing Ex-Im records—that on your

watch, taxpayer-backed financing to Russia has increased roughly

tenfold from roughly $60 million to $600 million. Is that accurate?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I am not looking at the precise data. But we no

longer do any business in Russia.
35

Chairman HENSARLING. I know you don’t. Because I sent you a

letter after Russia had invaded the Ukraine. And if memory serves

me correctly, that was February 27th of 2014. And it took you until

July 29th, many months later, before you and the Ex-Im Bank suspended all deals with Russia.

Is July 29th, according to press reports, the date that you suspended all deals with Russia? And is it not true that Russia invaded the Ukraine on February 27th?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would have to get back to you on the precise

date we stopped. We put a hold on—

Chairman HENSARLING. I will let you know, Mr. Hochberg, that

there are numerous press reports that show that it took you

months, months, in order to do that.

In February of this year, there were press reports that indicated that a $2 million direct Export-Import Bank loan to Ghana that

was designed to bring electricity to 1,200 rural communities was

instead diverted to buy luxury automobiles, including Lexus SUVs,

by various foreign government bureaucrats. Are you familiar with

this press report? And if so, is it accurate?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I am familiar with a company that has done a

lot of electrical work in Ghana, Weldy Lamont. In fact, they have

done such a good job that they have expanded their contract there.

I am not familiar with—

Chairman HENSARLING. So you are not familiar with this?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No, I am not, sir.

Chairman HENSARLING. Okay. In September of 2013, the Ex-Im Bank approved a $33.6 million loan for a Spanish green energy

company, Abengoa International at the time. Former New Mexico

Governor Bill Richardson sat on the advisory board for both Ex-Im

and this particular company. Are the records correct that Ex-Im

approved this loan?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is—again, I can confirm that. That sounds

familiar to me, sir.

Chairman HENSARLING. Okay. Mr. Hochberg, approximately how

many days a month do you travel away from the Export-Import

Bank?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I am probably on the road, if I had to guess,

about 7 or 8 days a month.

Chairman HENSARLING. Eight days a month. And do you know

over the last year how many appearances that you have made in

congressional districts with Members of Congress?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I have traveled around the country meeting with

small business exporters. I mentioned when I was with Gwen

Moore and the Maxim company, I was most recently—

Chairman HENSARLING. Are you meeting with them? Or are you

lobbying for your reauthorization?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. I am meeting with companies and finding

better ways that we can support them to support more American

jobs. And meeting—since 90 percent of our customers are small

businesses—

Chairman HENSARLING. Mr. Hochberg, while you are going

around meeting with various individuals and posing for photos, we

get articles like this, ‘‘Justice Department Charges Former ExportImport Bank Official with Bribery.’’ And as I understand it, this in-
36

dividual engaged in these activities on your watch, sir. And so perhaps maybe a little bit more time managing the store, and a little

less time posing for photo ops and lobbying for your reauthorization

may lead to fewer indictments.

I thank the chairman. I yield back the balance of the time I no

longer have.

Chairman JORDAN. Thank you, Chairman Hensarling.

I now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green.

Mr. GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the ranking

member, as well.

And would like to explain that when I say, ‘‘Export-Import

Bank,’’ I am really talking about 1,630 exporters in the State of

Texas. I am really talking about Texas being one of the top exporters in the country. It is more than a building that is located someplace with people in it. We are talking about, in my 9th Congressional District, 94 exporters. We are talking about 46 small businesses. We are talking about 14 minority-owned businesses. And

we are talking about 5 women-owned businesses.

So it is more than brick and mortar. More than people who happened to have engaged in some conduct that I don’t approve of.

Quite frankly, a lot of businesses engage in conduct that I don’t approve of. Those who police us engage in conduct that I don’t approve of. But I never advocated eliminating one police department.

Someone mentioned corporate welfare. This is a wonderful device, this iPad. It gives you access to the world immediately. The

Huffington Post has reported in 2014 with reference to corporate

welfare that direct Federal subsidies to corporations—and now they

mention the Cato institute. The Cato Institute estimates that Federal subsidies to corporations cost taxpayers $100 billion every

year.

Let’s really look into corporate welfare. Let’s do something about

corporate welfare. If this is the genesis, let’s go move on to revelations. I have some revelations. Federal tax breaks to corporations.

The Tax Code gives corporations special tax breaks that have reduced what is supposed to be a 35 percent tax rate to an actual

tax rate of 13 percent, saving these corporations an additional $200

billion annually.

Let’s talk about Federal tax breaks to the wealthy. Federal tax

breaks for wealthy hedge fund managers, special tax breaks for

hedge fund managers, allow them to pay only 15 percent. A 15 percent tax rate, while people that they earned the money for usually

pay a 35 percent tax rate.

You want to talk about corporate welfare? What about subsidies

for the fast food industry? Research by the University of Illinois

and UC Berkeley documents that taxpayers pay about $243 billion

each year in direct subsidies to the fast food industry because they

pay wages that are so low that taxpayers must put up $243 billion

to pay for public benefits the workers receive. My God. This is not

a crime. But I think an argument can be made that it is sinful.

So now we want to eliminate the Ex-Im Bank because of corporate welfare and criminality. My dear friends, if we didn’t have

the Ex-Im Bank, we would be trying to find a way to create it, so

that we could compete in the global marketplace.
37

I agree with Mr. Lucas. And I thank you for your commentary,

sir. I hope this doesn’t hope you back hope, my agreeing with you.

I want you to know I think that reform may be necessary, but that

we should not throw out this baby with the bath water.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for allowing an interloper to have a

moment. God bless you. And God bless the United States of America. I yield back.

Chairman HUIZENGA [presiding]. The gentleman yields back.

With that, the Chair recognizes Mr. Walberg of Michigan for 5

minutes.

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Last year, Delta CEO Richard Anderson testified before the Financial Services Committee, Mr. Sheets, that your predecessor informed him that Treasury was not going to negotiate with Europeans over Ex-Im subsidies. Could you elaborate on that for us?

Mr. SHEETS. Thank you. As you indicated, the meeting that you

are referring to occurred before I was at the Treasury.

What I can say is that we take the mandate that we have been

given very seriously. And we have, in fact, negotiated with our European counterparts on aircraft. And we are pressing them and

ready to go as quickly as they are prepared to go and broadly engaging on export credit financing with an eye toward further disciplining it.

Mr. WALBERG. How many meetings with other countries have

you attended to discuss lowering export credit assistance?

Mr. SHEETS. The meetings of the OECD and IWG negotiations

are done by members of my team. But what I can tell you is that

in international discussions with the Indians, with the Chinese,

with the Brazilians, in a number of meetings, more than I can

count, we have discussed issues related to export credit and efforts

to further widen the scope.

When we engage, particularly with our Chinese counterparts,

this is one of the very, very first issues, perhaps after the exchange

rate.

Mr. WALBERG. But let me go at it from another direction. How

many countries receiving export subsidies has the Department of

the Treasury not engaged in its negotiations?

Mr. SHEETS. I don’t have a number for you. What I can say is

that we get all the OECD members through that understanding.

And my recollection is that we have 18 countries involved in the

IWG. Now, some of those are also in the OECD. But I think that

expands the number of countries by another half dozen or so.

Mr. WALBERG. If we could get a list of those that you have not

engaged with, I would appreciate that.

In your testimony, you note that you will work on possible ways

to limit official financial support for wide-body aircraft, particularly

for airlines with access to alternative sources of financing.

Applying this principle more broadly, can you identify which aircraft makers, regardless of make of aircraft, would be unable to obtain financing without Ex-Im Bank involvement?

Mr. SHEETS. I don’t have the analytics with me today to be able

to answer that question. But we would be happy to take a look and

respond to you on that.
38

Mr. WALBERG. There is not a set answer that you could give of

particular aircraft companies—

Mr. SHEETS. I don’t know the list.

Mr. WALBERG. Okay. Mr. Hochberg, reports have shown that the

Bank mischaracterized—and that is a strong word—large businesses owned by billionaires and multinational conglomerates as

small businesses, and that these errors have contributed to as

much as $3 billion in authorizations that should have gone to small

businesses, the small businesses that we talked about that supply

for the larger corporations, including Boeing. How does the Bank

justify these errors?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congressman, we take data accuracy as a central

core mission of the Bank. In fact, last fall we identified four key

strategies for the Bank. And data quality is one of them.

In fact, just today we applied to OMB and got emergency approval. We have updated our application form to make sure that

we collect more accurate data from the actual exporter themselves.

We relied on some outside databases, and now we have a little bit

more of a belt and suspenders—

Mr. WALBERG. So the $3 billion of authorizations that should

have gone to small businesses are a thing of the past now?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Well, no. It is not a question of should. It is a

question of—when the Reuters story came out, 97 percent of the

transactions were accurate. And we looked at the other 200 to see

how they were categorized.

One of the difficulties, Congressman, is there are times you have

a small business that grows large and therefore is no longer small,

or a small business is sold. So this is a very dynamic database that

changes, and we continually update it.

Mr. WALBERG. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired.

Can you give me any latitude for one more question?

Chairman HUIZENGA. Had you not called my attention to it, it

would have made it much easier.

Mr. WALBERG. Everybody else has. But I am trying to live by the

rules.

Mr. Hochberg, one final question: Acknowledging these reporting

errors, the Bank responded and it hired a new information officer,

as you have said, and said it would conduct an overhaul of databases and review of paper documents. What is the status of these

activities and results, and is it your testimony today that no large

firms are classified as small in Ex-Im’s current small business portfolio?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We report our small business to Congress. We

report our small business results. We make the utmost effort to

make those completely accurate. But as I tried to say earlier, sometimes—it is a very dynamic database. Companies get larger and

are no longer small. They may be sold. They may be sold off from

a large company. So we have to look at it from a moment in time.

And what I have said is today we enacted an improvement in our

data system so we can get more accurate data. And it is one of the

four things we have focused on this year.

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you. And thank you very much—

Chairman HUIZENGA. Now your time has expired, Mr. Walberg.

And I appreciate you being maybe the only person in Washington
39

who would rather ask for permission than forgiveness before they

went ahead with something, but—

Mr. WALBERG. Remember, I am a minister.

Chairman HUIZENGA. With that, the Chair recognizes Mr. Carney of Delaware for 5 minutes.

Mr. CARNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank all the panelists for coming in today and

for addressing the questions that we have asked. And I would like

to go back to the closing comments that the gentleman from Oklahoma made, Mr. Lucas, about the fact that the reauthorization of

Ex-Im is going to come before us sometime in the near future.

I suspect progress going forward is going to depend in some

measure on efforts to reform operations and the like. And I thought

he kind of hit the nail on the head, and I would like to associate

myself with him as someone willing to look at those things to find

a path forward.

And with that, I would like to give the rest of my time to the

gentleman from the State of Washington, Mr. Heck.

Mr. HECK. I thank the gentleman.

I would like to register for the record umbrage I have taken at

a couple of attacks here today, the first of which is the imputing

of the motives and integrity and character of Mr. Hochberg. We can

have our philosophical differences, our policy disagreements. But

frankly, I think those suggestions do not at all match Mr.

Hochberg’s career of intermittent outstanding public service. And I

apologize on behalf of this institution. I think it is beneath our dignity.

I also take umbrage at the suggestion that there is some kind

of—something untoward in the fact that the Export-Import Bank

loans money to the foreign purchasers of American-made airplanes.

When people ask me back home, and they often do, why is it that

there is quite a bit of activity in the aerospace industry? My shorthand response—and Mr. Hochberg, I am going to ask you for

yours—is who exactly is it in the commercial lending industry that

you think would be willing to lend $200 million to $300 million for

Somalia to buy an airplane, as to why the Export-Import Bank is

needed.

But Mr. Hochberg, why is it that there is such significant activity

at Ex-Im on behalf of America’s aerospace industry? Let me say

that again: America’s aerospace industry.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Thank you, Congressman. We in the United

States are in a head-to-head competition with the Airbus on large

aircraft. We try—we are continually competing with them to make

those sales. We also make guarantees. We don’t make direct loans.

So we are always engaged in the Bank as a guaranteed loan.

And the chairman asked me about Boeing. When I was with

Copa Airlines, as an example, they placed an order that will be delivered over anywhere between a 9- to 12-year period. And part and

parcel of that order, giving the order to the United States and supporting 12,000 jobs here, versus 12,000 jobs in Toulouse and Hamburg, was the fact that we would be a backstop. They don’t need

us for the entire order, but they do need us from time to time.

And they predict over a 12-year period there will be financial

stress. And in order to make that order and to give the confidence
40

that they can make delivery, they needed us as a backstop. We

may—we could wind up doing zero. But they have to know that we

are there as a reserve, should the financial conditions warrant that

we need to step in.

And let me just add right here. We talk about Boeing. There is

a lot of discussion of big companies. I visited one of Boeing’s suppliers in Missouri, LMI. The company started out as Leonard’s

Metal Industries. It is now called LMI. There is a company in—

Eaton Aerospace in Jackson, Mississippi.

Boeing is a conglomeration. Just like the Ford Motor Company

is an assembly plant, the Boeing Company is an assembly plant.

It is assembling components for more than 15,000 businesses,

about 6,000 of which are small businesses. So we are not talking

about a large company. We are talking about a very deep supply

chain that would be impacted if there is any untoward action here.

Mr. HECK. Much has been made over the last few years about

the importance of America’s future, of revitalizing its manufacturing base. I realize this is calling for a subjective evaluation. But

how important to America’s manufacturing base do you think the

thousands and thousands and thousands of engineers working

across all platforms of technology are to America’s manufacturing

base and our future?

Mr. HOCHBERG. If we want to compete—if the United States

wants to compete in capital goods, if we want to compete with the

likes of China, Japan, Korea, Germany, and others on capital

goods, we need to have a backstop to provide the kind of long-term

12-year money that is required. And that goes above and beyond,

as you mentioned, all the engineers, all the designers, all the patents and everything else that is developed that creates those products we can sell on the global marketplace.

Mr. CARNEY. I yield back.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman from Delaware yields back.

With that, the Chair recognizes Mr. Gowdy of South Carolina for

5 minutes.

Mr. GOWDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I actually supported, Mr.

Chairman, the 2012 reauthorization. And there will be another

day, in my judgment, to debate the merits and demerits of the

Bank and the reauthorization. And there will be reasonable minds

on both sides of that. And there will be colleagues that I respect

on both sides of that.

Mr. Chairman, what is not open for debate is whether or not the

Bank and the Department of the Treasury have a responsibility to

cooperate with oversight. This committee has a responsibility to

provide oversight. And you have a corresponding obligation to assist with that.

So Mr. Sheets, can you tell me with a specificity the name of the

person negotiating the end of the need for Ex-Im Banks?

Mr. SHEETS. I would say consistent with the mandate that there

are a number of people—

Mr. GOWDY. Okay. Then, give me all of the names.

Mr. SHEETS. I would say consistent with the mandate, the responsibility rests with the Secretary, with me—

Mr. GOWDY. Okay. Are you going to make yourself available for

a transcribed interview with the Financial Services Committee so
41

they can ask you about the status of those negotiations to end the

need for the Bank?

Mr. SHEETS. In my remarks today, I outlined in some detail the

things that we are doing. And we are vigorously engaged—

Mr. GOWDY. Actually, Mr. Sheets, that was not my question. My

question is, are you are willing to make yourself available for a

transcribed interview so my colleagues on the Financial Services

Committee can ask you with specificity what steps you are taking,

as the 2012 reauthorization required, to end the need for such

banks?

Mr. SHEETS. We, as a regular and routine matter, make ourselves available to Congress.

Mr. GOWDY. And you have updated Chairman Hensarling on all

the progress that has been made, with specificity?

Mr. SHEETS. We, consistent with the mandate—

Mr. GOWDY. You don’t have to say ‘‘consistent with the mandate.’’

You and I both know what we are talking about.

Mr. SHEETS. Consistent with the mandate, we are required to

submit an annual report. And—

Mr. GOWDY. That is not my question, Mr. Sheets. My question

is very particular. Are you willing to submit to a transcribed interview with the Financial Services Committee so they can ask you

about all the progress you have been making about ending the

need for Ex-Im Banks? You can start with a yes or a no, and then

you can explain it.

Mr. SHEETS. And as I said, as a routine matter—

Mr. GOWDY. No, you haven’t said.

Mr. SHEETS. —we are—

Mr. GOWDY. That is my point, Mr. Sheets, that you haven’t

said—and it took forever for you to respond to a request from

Chairman Hensarling. I am going to tell you this, Mr. Sheets, right

now the single best argument against reauthorization is you.

Chairman Hochberg, you referred to transcribed interviews as

‘‘inherently adversarial.’’ Tell me why you said that.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have made ourselves available, Congressman, for briefings repeatedly on the Hill and—

Mr. GOWDY. Mr. Chairman, I have limited time, and I am going

to need you to go straight to the answer.

You described transcribed interviews as inherently adversarial.

Why did you say that? What is inherently adversarial about taking

testimony under oath, which I hasten to add, is exactly what we

are doing today.

Mr. HOCHBERG. And I think this is an excellent forum for that,

sir.

Mr. GOWDY. Do you think Congress should be able to provide a

little input into what they think an excellent forum is? Or are you

the sole arbiter of that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. Without question, sir. I am saying we have

made ourselves available for briefings, and we make ourselves

available for hearings—

Mr. GOWDY. Will you make yourself and your employees under

the purview of the Oversight Committee available for a transcribed

interview, just like everyone else has to submit to when they are

requested by Congress?
42

Mr. HOCHBERG. We would prefer to have a briefing to understand what the transcribed interview would be about before we

would commit to that. We would like to know what the subject is,

sir.

Mr. GOWDY. I am just going to tell you this. For those of us who

live in States that benefit from the Bank, and for those of us who

have supported the reauthorization and would like to support future reauthorizations, I would encourage you to revisit your answer

to that question. When the chairman of the Financial Services

Committee asks to take transcribed interviews—which is nothing

more than an interview under oath behind closed doors—I fail to

see how that is appreciably different from what you and I are doing

right now. You are under oath right now.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Correct, sir.

Mr. GOWDY. It is being transcribed. That is what the lady beside

you is doing. So what is the difference?

Mr. HOCHBERG. It is in public, sir—

Mr. GOWDY. So you prefer for these employees to be brought out

in public?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would prefer it to be in a hearing setting where

we have full disclosure, both sides of the aisle can hear, and both

sides of the aisle can ask questions.

Mr. GOWDY. Have you ever been to a transcribed interview? Because both sides are represented there too, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HOCHBERG. No, I have not.

Mr. GOWDY. Okay. Then, when you are subject to a transcribed

interview, which may be soon, you will see that both sides get to

participate in that.

Now, I want to ask you one follow-up question because I am out

of time. You—

Ms. MOORE. Mr. Chairman, I object—

Chairman HUIZENGA. It is at the Chair’s discretion. However, as

it has been pointed out, the Chair will now make sure that everyone adheres to the 5-minute rule, which includes both sides, apparently.

So with that, sorry, Mr. Gowdy, your time has expired.

Mr. GOWDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman HUIZENGA. And with that, Mr. Clay of Missouri will

have his 5 minutes. Exactly 5 minutes.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I will try to observe

the 5 minutes.

I want to take a moment to thank Chairman Hochberg for his

leadership and the Ex-Im Bank’s role in supporting so many small

businesses that are seeking to compete successfully in the global

market.

Ex-Im directly supports 17 small and medium-sized businesses in

the first congressional district of Missouri by providing millions of

dollars in credit support to businesses that sustain many of the

families and communities in my district.

Despite the vital role that the Bank plays in supporting small

businesses, the Bank’s reauthorization has been held hostage to

partisan extremism. I want to reiterate my support for H.R. 1031,

the Promoting U.S. Jobs Through Exports Act of 2015, a comprehensive proposal that expands the Bank’s support for small
43

businesses, enhances its transparency, and reduces the Bank’s risk

to taxpayers.

With nearly 250 Members of this body lending their support to

a renewal of the Bank, I remain hopeful that partisan extremism

will eventually yield to the overwhelming support for the Bank’s

reauthorization.

And just one question for Mr. Hochberg, if Congress fails to reauthorize the Ex-Im Bank, which business sectors would begin to feel

the pain first?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I believe first and foremost would be our small

businesses in our country; 90 percent of our customers are small

businesses, and they frequently—in all cases—when they come to

us, don’t have another option. A number of banks have already said

they have begun to curtail their extension of credit to small businesses due to the potential of not being reauthorized in July.

Another company—I would say there are also a lot of companies

in the supply chain. In the State of Missouri itself, I visited a company called LMI in Saint Charles. They are a supplier to Gulf

Stream, Cessna, and many, many companies. They would feel an

immediate impact because sales would begin to shift towards airplanes made in Canada, Brazil, Europe, Russia, China, and places

like that.

Mr. CLAY. So Congress’ inaction is having a negative impact on

our economy and will do serious damage if we continue down this

path?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have already gotten some reports from different sectors about that.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you for your response.

And Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to yield the remainder of my time to the ranking member of the full Financial Services

Committee, Ms. Waters.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Ms. WATERS. Thank you very much.

First, let me just commend our witnesses here today on the way

that you have conducted yourself, despite the attacks that have

been thrown at you. You have done a wonderful job.

And let me also say, Mr. Hochberg, Mr. Sheets, you have the

right to decline transcribed interviews. We are not happy with the

way that they handle transcribed interviews. They refuse to give

us memorandums of understanding. So having said that, let me go

to something that I think we need to expand on.

Mr. Hochberg, how much have China’s export credit agencies financed in the past 2 years versus the U.S. Export-Import Bank?

Mr. HOCHBERG. In the last 2 years, SINOSURE alone has done

close to $670 billion. The China Ex-Im Bank is not as transparent.

It is between about $80 million and $90 million. On top of that, you

have two other Chinese banks that do that same kind of work. In

that same period last year and the year before, we would have

done $47 billion.

Ms. WATERS. I’m sorry. Would you give us those numbers again?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Sure. China—SINOSURE, which is their shortterm credit insurance, the kind of things we do for our small businesses, has done $670 billion in the last 2 years alone. There is

also the China Ex-Im Bank that does generally speaking in the $80
44

million to $90 million range a year. That is directly from the chairman of that bank. Plus there are two other—there is the China Development Bank and the China Agriculture Bank.

Ms. WATERS. Thank you. And thank you for talking about the

nature and mission of other countries’ export credit agencies that

allows them to support their industries’ exports far beyond—

Chairman HUIZENGA. With that, the gentleman’s time has expired, per the gentlelady’s request.

And with that, the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Arizona,

Mr. Schweikert, for 5 minutes.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now we all get to

do the lightning round because we all have to talk a lot faster.

Mr. McCarthy, you might be the arbiter of a little bit of fairness here. Total U.S. exports last year: $1 trillion, $640 billion. Yet,

somewhere in here I was hearing that the book of business from

Ex-Im actually went down a little bit last year.

Mr. MCCARTHY. That is correct. There was a decline in the book

of business. The outstanding exposure went from $113 billion to

$112 billion.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay. So if you do the simple math, Ex-Im represents less than 1 percent of U.S. exports, at least from a total

book of business. Simple math.

Mr. MCCARTHY. I am not an economist, but—

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. But that is correct? That is called—

Mr. MCCARTHY. That sounds correct.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. That is called—

Mr. MCCARTHY. The math sounds correct.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. As a CPA, I am sure you do that in the back

of your head.

How did Ex-Im Bank’s book of business go down, yet our exports

went up? Where in heaven are these organizations finding surety

enhancement credit? What is happening out there in the marketplace that is also providing some of this type of liquidity? What are

your—

Mr. MCCARTHY. Let me give you a very high-level answer, because this isn’t my area of expertise. But my understanding is that

the Ex-Im Bank loan portfolio increased after the financial crisis

because liquidity was less available in the private market—

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. My focus is the 14-year—

Mr. MCCARTHY. —and now there is just more—

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. —just because I have a nice block year where

I can run the numbers.

Mr. MCCARTHY. Okay. I would defer to Chairman Hochberg on

those, the larger Bank operational issues.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay. Mr. Thorum, you had a grin on your face

during that. Walk me through what you understand as to where

these other organizations are getting import/export credit?

Mr. THORUM. I don’t recall having a grin. Sorry.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Oh, okay. I’m sorry.

Mr. THORUM. I am listening intently.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay. We will go to Mr. Hochberg. Share with

me what is happening out there in the alternative or private marketplace on the loan enhancement side that it was able to grow last

year in 2014?
45

Mr. HOCHBERG. The private sector has done a spectacular job in

the last 2 years, and it has far less need for us today than there

was 2 years ago. As you commented, Congressman, our portfolio

has and our loan volume has gone down. And that is a good thing.

We really—we step in when the private sector isn’t available or

cannot do so.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. So if I came to you right now and said one of

my ultimate goals here is—because I believe the pricing of risk is

best in the crowd in the marketplace—how do I continue to grow

that private guarantee? Because so far, the conversation around

here has been a bit absurd. If you are 1 percent of the exports and

part of your book of business went away, and there were no alternatives, the world comes to an end. The math doesn’t add up.

So what would you do to continue to grow the real world, instead

of the taxpayer-insured world?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Actually, I think we do that every day. What we

are trying to do is encourage more banks to do so. What happens

is frequently banks and insurance companies will work with us and

then over time, either they say, we can do this on our own now;

we are going to take the training wheels off and we can now do

this. That is our goal, to get—

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. But do you believe that would expand more the

syndication of risk silos and those mechanics if you weren’t the

easy default?

Mr. HOCHBERG. It is sort of an—I only will tell you what our customers tell us. I was recently in Alabama, a company called—that

makes printing.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. I am less after anecdotes. I am more just after

the sort of the—

Mr. HOCHBERG. They come to me and say, I need to come to you

because I don’t have an alternative. That is why people come.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay. And my basic economics would say they

don’t have an alternative because if you are in the market, why

should the private sector compete with you?

Also, in digging through some of the mechanics, do you believe

you define default and failure to meet reps and warrants—don’t

look through your tabs—the same as Chase Bank or any other SIFI

out there because you have a wonderful default rate, impairment

rate. Do you define impairment the same as the rest of the major

money-centered banking industry?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We define faults as charge-offs as where we—

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay. It is full charge-offs. So it is not even a

violation. But if I am Chase, I have to define an impairment, even

when there is a failure in my reps and warrants.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We define—we put in our—we—

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. But what you are telling me right now is that

is not ceteris paribus, I think was the old word we had in college,

of you are not doing equal-to-equal—

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman’s time has expired.

Mr. SCHWEIKERT. —definition of what impairment—

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Chairman HUIZENGA. With that, the Chair recognizes the

gentlelady from Wisconsin for a unanimous consent request.

Ms. MOORE. Thank you, so much, Mr. Chairman.
46

I ask unanimous consent to place two documents in the record:

first, as I referenced, ‘‘Cruz Under Fire,’’ from the Texas businessmen; and second, a statement of support for the Ex-Im Bank from

the National Association of Manufacturers.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Without objection, it is so ordered.

With that, seeing no other witnesses at this time on the Democrat side of the aisle, we will continue on the Republican side of

the aisle with Mr. Meadows, of North Carolina, who is recognized

for 5 minutes.

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank each of

you for being here. I really don’t have any other questions that

would help further this debate.

But I will say, Chairman Hochberg, it is troubling when you answer the way that you do when you have somebody like myself who

is trying to make a decision on reauthorization. And the lack of

transparency, the lack of willingness to come before the Oversight

Committee is troubling to me, and quite frankly, more troubling to

the American people on Main Street who don’t understand why you

would not submit to transcribed interviews under oath and why

you would want to do it in a public forum.

And so I would just ask you to reconsider your position, as Mr.

Gowdy had covered earlier.

And with that, I have no questions, Mr. Chairman, so I yield

back. Actually, I yield to Mr. Gowdy for follow up.

Mr. GOWDY. And I thank my friend from North Carolina.

So Mr. Chairman, you have heard from an undecided Member of

Congress who is less than overwhelmed with your answers with respect to oversight, and you have heard from a Member of Congress

who very much wants to support reauthorization. I think you said

you are not an attorney. I once was.

Ms. Waters did give you some legal advice, that you have the

right to decline a transcribed interview. I would also remind you

that Members of Congress have a right to factor that in as they determine whether or not to reauthorize this Bank.

And before I yield to my friend from South Carolina, I want to

ask you about something else. In a letter that you wrote to Chairman Hensarling, you said that you have made redactions to protect

the candid exchanges of views by the Bank’s board members. And

I am curious what legal privilege entitles you to make that redaction?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We submitted our board minutes, board transcribes, to the committee. We try and leave out deliberative matters and business confidential information so—

Mr. GOWDY. I get that. But you also said you were going to protect candid exchanges of views by the Bank’s board members. If

you were providing oversight, wouldn’t you want candid exchanges

as opposed to, say, stale boilerplate discussions? If your responsibility was to provide oversight, wouldn’t you want candid exchanges?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have a candid exchange at our board meetings. But at the end of the day, what is most critical is how board

members vote, whether they vote for or against the—
47

Mr. GOWDY. And I will tell you that the results in life matter,

but the process may matter even more. And I would encourage you

to revisit that position with Chairman Hensarling, as well.

And with that, I yield to my friend from South Carolina.

Mr. MULVANEY. I thank the gentleman.

Mr. Sheets, very briefly—

Ms. MOORE. Parliamentary inquiry. Whose time is it, sir?

Mr. GOWDY. I will reclaim my time—

Chairman HUIZENGA. It is the gentleman from North Carolina’s

time.

Mr. GOWDY. I will reclaim my time.

I yield to the gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Mulvaney.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Mr. MULVANEY. Thank you. One of the reasons that we focus so

closely on these supposed discussions with the folks overseas about

getting out of the aircraft financing business is the data that has

been provided to us by Ms. Gianopoulos.

I read your reports. I have your reports. I have read your testimony, which is pretty much a cut and paste of your last report.

And yet, we have data, real data, that says—if we can get it up

on the screen—that the Bank’s exposure to the aircraft market has

gone up, not down. It is the dark blue at the bottom. It is not going

down. You are measuring it in such a way where I think you can

fill out a piece of paper that says you are doing what you are supposed to do. But the real data indicates that the exact opposite is

happening. That is what is causing us the difficulty, sir.

Other things cause us difficulties about this. Secretary Lew was

in front of the Financial Services Committee just a couple of weeks

ago, and I had a chance to ask him the same question, a very similar question to what Mr. Gowdy asked you. I asked him, ‘‘Can you

tell us who is in charge of these negotiations?’’ And he said he was

going to have to get back to me on that.

You identified him just a little while ago, in response to Mr.

Gowdy’s questions, as somebody who was involved. Do you think he

would be able to recall if he was involved in those discussions?

Mr. SHEETS. Thank you. The mandate, as I understand it—

Mr. MULVANEY. I am not asking about the mandate. You said

that he was involved. Has Secretary Lew been directly involved in

the discussions that are mandated by the statute?

Mr. SHEETS. Yes.

Mr. MULVANEY. Okay. We have asked him to provide us with information. I am told by staff that you are the one responsible for

pulling those together. Are you, sir?

Mr. SHEETS. I have not seen a request—

Mr. MULVANEY. You have not talked to Mr. Lew about this since

March 17th, when he appeared before the Financial Services Committee?

Mr. SHEETS. I have not seen a request. But as soon as we see

it, we will—

Mr. MULVANEY. And I am sorry to cut you off, but I have 8 seconds.

The last time this committee asked for information from Treasury about this, it took 9 months to get the response. When did we
48

get it? Yesterday. Do you understand maybe, sir, why we have this

type of adversarial relationship?

Ms. MOORE. Mr. Chairman?

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman from North Carolina’s time

has expired.

Does the gentlelady from Wisconsin have an inquiry?

Mr. SHEETS. We do.

Ms. MOORE. No. I just would question—the ranking member

did—

Chairman HUIZENGA. We will—

Mr. MULVANEY. —the ranking member went a minute-and-a-half

over.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The ranking member was not cut off. It

was—it was not the gentleman—

Mr. MULVANEY. Point of parliamentary inquiry?

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman from Missouri was the one

whose time had expired.

Yes, gentleman from South Carolina? He withdraws. Okay.

Again, still seeing no Members on the Democrat side who are eligible to be recognized in this first round, we will move on to the

gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Hice, for his 5 minutes.

Mr. HICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Hochberg, what information does the Bank publicly post

about either the Bank’s transactions, suppliers, buyers or other

type information?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I am not exactly sure I understand the nature

of the question.

Mr. HICE. Well, data.gov, for instance. You post this type of information for the public regarding transactions and buyers and all

that type of thing.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Right. We post data on data.gov for all transactions.

Mr. HICE. Okay. Why did the Bank remove so much of the

dataset from the Federal Government’s public site in the fall of

2014?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We moved some of that data because we had

some complaints from customers, that they felt business confidential information, names of their customers, pricing, and so forth

was included. So in an effort not to in any way hurt any U.S. exporters, we took the data down, reviewed it, and then put it back

up within a few weeks.

Mr. HICE. When you put it back up, it came right after a watchdog group, eximuncensored.com, posted some information. And

when you reposted, there was a lot of information that was missing. Why was that missing?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We removed information at the request of actual

exporters because the last thing we want to do is jeopardize their

business. So we took out information that they felt was business

confidential, like who their customers are, what their pricing is,

but left the rest of the information in.

Mr. HICE. Without that information being posted, quite frankly,

how do we know whether or not applicants are being treated fairly?

Mr. HOCHBERG. First of all, if applicants aren’t being treated

fairly, they complain. So we would get complaints if they are not—
49

we took the data down in response to complaints that they felt

their business was being jeopardized. And we took a look at it and

we said we don’t really need to post the names and addresses of

their exact customers.

Our customers—we all keep our customer list somewhat confidential. When I was in business, we didn’t share customer lists

with competitors. It is the same in this particular case. And that

is why data was removed and then promptly put back up.

Mr. HICE. Why did the Bank decide to remove information regarding things like primary supplier of the Ex-Im authorizations?

Why was it necessary to remove that type of information?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Again, we responded in response to customers,

exporters, small businesses that were concerned about trade secrets and confidential information being revealed. So in order to

balance transparency and also protect businessess, we tried to

strike that balance.

Mr. HICE. Can you provide this committee with the request for

these companies’ further information for us?

Mr. HOCHBERG. As long as I understand precisely what you are

asking for, we can provide it.

Mr. HICE. Yes. As to the information that was removed, precisely

what was removed?

Mr. HOCHBERG. What fields? I would be happy to do that. I review that personally myself to say, why did you remove these

fields, do we need to? And we put many of them back up.

Mr. HICE. All right. Over half of the 27,000-plus authorizations

that were in the new dataset had ‘‘NA’’ listed as their primary

lender. I find that a bit odd. How do you explain not having any

information regarding the primary lender for over half of the authorizations?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would have to take a look at that data and—

Mr. HICE. You have no idea why NA was placed on 27,000-plus

in place of a primary lender?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I can make conjecture. I don’t want to do that,

sir. I would rather get you the exact facts.

Mr. HICE. If the Bank has this information, why is it no longer

available to the public?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would have to look at the data, sir. And I

would be happy to get it to you. I just—I am not fully—

Mr. HICE. So you don’t have a reason why it would not be available? You may not know why it was left out but—

Mr. HOCHBERG. If we have the data, we would make it available.

Mr. HICE. All right. The new dataset also lists NA as a primary

exporter for nearly 1,200 transactions. Do you have any idea why

that would be the case?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I would have to look—I will give you a full report. I don’t have it at my fingertips, what is the percentage—

Mr. HICE. Doesn’t it seem like this would be something that

would be at your fingertips?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Sir, I try and keep as much as I can at my fingertips and in my head, but we all have our limits.

Mr. HICE. Why does the Bank have ‘‘various’’ and ‘‘insurance’’

listed as the country, the primary source of repayment, and so

forth, for 60 percent of these 27,000-plus authorizations?
50

It is totally in the wrong place, the wrong things. It is up here.

We can get this information for you so you can look at it. I know

it is small. But you have various insurance listed as the country,

the primary source of repayment, and so forth.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We offer what are called ‘‘multi-buyer insurance

policies.’’ We have small businesses that sell to dozens of companies. So frequently, that—we do not always list every single customer they are selling to. Because it is a blanket policy that covers

many credits.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Sorry. The gentleman’s time has expired.

Mr. HICE. Thank you, sir.

Chairman HUIZENGA. And again, seeing no Members on the

Democrat side who are eligible for this first round, we go to Mr.

Stutzman of Indiana for his 5 minutes.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate the

panel for being here this morning.

I want to ask a question here. I will just first of all say this to

you all. I have been trying to keep an open mind about this. And

I understand the role that folks try to argue for the reauthorization

of Ex-Im. I did vote against the last reauthorization. And I am inclined to do so again at this point, considering the role that the ExIm Bank has played and also the lack of transparency in the issues

that we discussed today.

Mr. Hochberg, could you answer the question that the gentleman

from Arizona was talking about earlier? What is the number of

U.S. exports in 2014?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Excuse me. The number of exporters that we

worked with?

Mr. STUTZMAN. Dollar amount in exports for 2014 from the

United States.

Mr. HOCHBERG. About $2.35 trillion.

Mr. STUTZMAN. About $2.35 trillion?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Correct.

Mr. STUTZMAN. And the business that you do in that is about $112 billion?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. We did—actually, we financed $27.5 billion

worth of exports last year.

Mr. STUTZMAN. $27.5 billion?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Correct.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Out of $2.35 trillion?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is correct.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Okay. So it was said earlier by the gentleman

from Pennsylvania that Ex-Im Bank is hugely successful. Would

you agree with that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We act as a backstop. I would say we are successful.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Okay. So out of $2.35 trillion, $27.5 billion,

hugely successful. The question I am asking myself is, why can’t

the private sector handle that small amount? It is not that much

in the grand scheme of things.

I want to go to—according to your competitiveness report, both

France and Germany provided more new medium- and long-term

export credit than the United States did in 2007; 5 years later, we

were providing more export credit than both countries combined.
51

China provides more than what we do. And in addition, based on

Treasury’s own reports, it does not look like congressionally-mandated negotiations to end export credit subsidies are being taken

seriously by the Department.

I worry that what might happen to Indiana’s exporters as these

trends continue, especially with China’s new role, it could disrespect trade rules.

Let me ask you this. Suppose the world supply of exports multiplies 3 or 4 times over the the next few years. Should Ex-Im grow

at that same rate?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congressman, mostly what I have learned in my

6 years on the job is that we really stand to fill in the gap. So when

we have a small business—or in your own State, Cummings Engine, they don’t use us most of the time. But they need us in a few

select circumstances.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Should we just continue to grow at a certain

pace?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We only respond as filling in a gap. If a company

like Cummings or a small business that I visited, I mentioned earlier, is a company called Zante needs us, we step in. When they

don’t need us, we step away.

Mr. STUTZMAN. So again, $27.5 billion out of $2.35 trillion can’t

be handled by the private sector, is what you are saying.

I want to ask you another question. I think most of us would

agree that in a perfect world, we wouldn’t have export credit agencies. Would you agree with that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We just don’t live in that perfect world.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Okay. So considering today’s developing economies, we have countries all around the world that are growing.

Have any of them approached you—or I would ask Mr. Sheets at

the Treasury—have any of them approached you about how to develop an export-import model in those developing countries?

Mr. HOCHBERG. From time to time, we have countries come visit

us and spend maybe a few days or a week with our staff to learn

what they can do to support their exports in their countries.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Mr. Sheets?

Mr. SHEETS. I haven’t been involved in any of those conversations, and I don’t know of any regarding me or my staff.

Mr. STUTZMAN. But would anybody on staff—if somebody came

to you all, would you help them develop a model so they understand how an export-import model would work?

Mr. SHEETS. Absolutely. Thinking through best practices and

how to frame an export-import bank would be something that we

could carry on a conversation with international counterparts on

quite productively.

Mr. STUTZMAN. But wouldn’t that then directly contradict the

congressional mandate to eliminate global export subsidies?

Mr. SHEETS. My focus is on the U.S. side of that equation. But—

Mr. STUTZMAN. But if we are talking to any foreign entities and

they are wondering, how does an export-import model work,

wouldn’t that violate the mandate?

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman’s time has expired. But I

will allow the answer, if that is all right.
52

Mr. SHEETS. My answer to your question is it wouldn’t, in that

the issue is gaps in market financing. And these countries that

don’t have ex-im banks don’t have well-developed financial sectors.

Mr. STUTZMAN. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It just seems

like we are contradicting ourselves on trying to eliminate the competition.

Chairman HUIZENGA. And with that, we have reached the end of

our first round. We would like to entertain a brief second round if

that is okay with the panel, as well.

Chairman Jordan, the chairman of the Health Care, Benefits and

Administrative Rules Subcommittee, had been kind enough to recognize me to speak first in that first round. And it is my failure

not to recognize him.

Chairman JORDAN. I thank the gentleman.

Mr. McCarthy, you said you have 31 investigations, open investigations related to fraud. Can you tell me—or more importantly,

can you assure this committee and the Congress that none of those

31 are going to turn out like Mr. Gutierrez?

Mr. MCCARTHY. So the answer that I gave to this question last

summer is that we have—including the Mr. Gutierrez investigation, we have some allegations of serious misconduct and ineffective management.

Outside of that small number of investigations, we have not developed evidence that there is widespread employee involvement.

Chairman JORDAN. You said earlier that most of these fraud investigations involve a company seeking financing doing something

fraudulent to get the financing. So it comes from outside?

Mr. MCCARTHY. That is correct.

Chairman JORDAN. But that is exactly how Mr. Gutierrez’s situation played out, as well. Wasn’t Impex the company, basically a

shell company trying to get financing? Mr. Gutierrez complied with

that and worked with that. And so that fraud case that resulted

in the indictment of Mr. Gutierrez earlier this week started with

a company doing exactly what you allege most of these 31 open

fraud investigations are about?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Without getting into the details—

Chairman JORDAN. I am asking, is that accurate?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Without getting into the details of that specific

case, I can—

Chairman JORDAN. I will give you the details. A 69-page complaint filed in the U.S. District Court, southern district of Florida,

laid out how Impex Associates was little more than an artifice to

defraud the Bank. So it started off with an outside organization entity trying to defraud the Bank. But there was someone on the inside actually taking bribes and committing fraud, and now he has

been indicted.

Mr. MCCARTHY. And in those cases where we see those types of

outside frauds, we are taking a hard look at whether there is employee complicity or participation in the scheme.

Chairman JORDAN. Which takes me back to my question, you

have 31 of those open right now?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Right.

Chairman JORDAN. We want to know, before this Congress is

asked to reauthorize something with all the problems that have
53

been cited here in today’s hearing, can you assure us that none of

those other cases are like Mr. Gutierrez?

Mr. MCCARTHY. What I can assure you is that at this time, those

other cases that we are investigating do not have evidence that we

have developed of Ex-Im Bank employee internal complicity or participation.

Chairman JORDAN. Have you referred any of those other cases,

any of the 31, to the Justice Department?

Mr. MCCARTHY. We work routinely with the Justice Department

on most of our cases.

Chairman JORDAN. Do you know if the Justice Department is

going to have—are we going to have an indictment tomorrow? Are

we going to have an indictment before the next Ex-Im hearing that

Chairman Hensarling has or Chairman Chaffetz has in this—when

is the next indictment coming?

Mr. MCCARTHY. There is a possibility that there will be future

indictments in this particular case. There is a possibility there will

be—

Chairman JORDAN. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. That is a

big statement. You think there is a possibility of future indictments

in the Gutierrez case, or in some of the other 31 cases?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Both.

Chairman JORDAN. Both? That is important information for this

committee and this Congress to understand. You made it sound

earlier like oh, no, no, these are people who filed some wrong paperwork or something coming on the outside. But now you are saying there is a possibility of future indictments relative to the

Gutierrez case and the other 31 open fraud investigations; is that

right?

Mr. MCCARTHY. What I am saying is that there is a possibiliy of

future indictments in the Gutierrez case. And in the other 31 cases,

there is a possibility of indictments in those cases, as well. In those

other cases—

Chairman JORDAN. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What other cases? Now

you are going beyond 31. What other cases?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Within those 31 cases. I would not at this time—

Chairman JORDAN. But now—

Mr. MCCARTHY. —expect indictments of other Ex-Im employees.

Chairman JORDAN. So now you are getting to the point I want.

How do you define those 31 cases? When you testified here last

summer, The Wall Street Journal had just reported about Mr.

Gutierrez and three other people. You and Mr. Hochberg wouldn’t

tell me who the three other people were; you wouldn’t even confirm

Mr. Gutierrez in that hearing.

Were those four individuals—is that one case of fraud, or are

those four separate cases of fraud? How do you define it?

Mr. MCCARTHY. Those are three separate cases.

Chairman JORDAN. Three cases.

Mr. MCCARTHY. But one of them involves Mr. Gutierrez and another former Ex-Im employee. The other two cases involve one employee each. Those are separate cases. And those cases have been

closed out and I have reported—
54

Chairman JORDAN. How many individuals are involved in the

31? It can be a lot more than 31 based on what you just told me.

Is that accurate?

Mr. MCCARTHY. In many of our cases and indictments, we have

indictments of multiple individuals in these schemes.

Chairman JORDAN. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I think that is huge.

There is a possibility we have future indictments coming. And we

have a decision to make here in a couple of months. That is huge

news and something I think this committee needed to know. And

I am glad that Mr. McCarthy was able to give us that information.

I yield back.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman yields back.

With that, the Chair recognizes Ms. Moore of Wisconsin for 5

minutes.

Ms. MOORE. Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman. And thank

you, panel, for your patience with this second round.

There has been a lot of discussion about the 1992 bailout of the

Ex-Im Bank. And I guess maybe Ms. Gianopoulos is the person

that I need to ask about the restructuring of the Ex-Im Bank since

1992 to the fee-for-service model. And are they in a position for us

to have to bail them out again?

Ms. GIANOPOULOS. It is difficult to say if we are going to have

to bail out the Bank again. Of course, some of our recommendations over the past few years since the 2012 reauthorization have

focused on the way that the Bank looks at its portfolio risk management. And the Bank has been responsive to almost all of the

recommendations we have made since that time to look at how

they are calculating that loss.

Ms. MOORE. Thank you so very much. There has been a lot of

discussion about the stress test that the Bank has undergone.

Mr. Hochberg, I want you to tell us how you have performed

under these stress tests.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congresswoman, I think the most perfect stress

test we have had is the recession that we have just gone through.

And if I take a look at—I’m sorry. It was in my written testimony.

But our defaults, as reported to Congress, in 2006 were a high of

1.6 percent. We have gone through the worst recession, the most

stressful time in not only our economy, but the global economy.

And as you can see in our written testimony, our defaults have declined each and every year since.

So that, in my opinion, is still the most perfect stress test. On

top of that, we do stress tests in our CFO’s department on a routine basis to look at different stresses in our portfolio. But let’s not

forget that the recession created a very perfect example of that.

Ms. MOORE. I appreciate hearing that, particularly since under

Title I of Dodd-Frank, the globally-systemic risky banks that we

bailed out during 2008 have not yet submitted their living wills, as

mandated under Title I of 2010. So I would say that there is a lot

more risk from Wall Street and from the banking community than

there is with the Ex-Im Bank.

Let me ask this question: There has been a lot of discussion of

Delta. And so, there have been lawsuits. I think Delta has really

gone to court to suggest that the Ex-Im Bank has put them in a

very noncompetitive situation. I guess I would like for the com-
55

mittee to hear what the results of those lawsuits have been. Mr.

Hochberg?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Thank you, Congresswoman Moore. Delta has

sued the Bank on four occasions. The courts have ruled in favor of

the Export-Import Bank in all four occasions and have not found

anything in their particular case.

The cases basically say that when we finance a foreign carrier,

could that potentially have damage to a U.S. company. We review,

as I have mentioned, every single transaction. Not just in the aircraft, but the entire Bank. Any transaction over $10 million, we

look at for any potential harm.

The last thing we want do at the Export-Import Bank is harm

the U.S. economy and hurt the U.S. economy. So we look at—it is

called economic impact. We look at the positive benefits and make

an estimation with outside consultants about any potential harm

and we balance those two against each other.

So Delta has claimed that. We review every aircraft transaction

and found no evidence of it.

Ms. MOORE. I guess, in my last minute, I will turn to Mr. Sheets.

Because we have heard an awful lot of talk about this indictment

of Mr. Gutierrez and potential indictments coming down from ExIm Bank.

I just am so concerned about the lack of indictments for what

happened in 2008. And I am wondering if what we see in the ExIm Bank indictments has nearly the globally-systemic impact that

we saw in 2008, where we have seen very few indictments come

down.

Mr. SHEETS. The impact of the bank failures during 2008 and

2009 globally was of astronomical proportions. Not only here in the

United States, but the global implications of that were literally beyond what I can calculate in terms of lost economic output and jobs

and human and psychic pain. I don’t think that these indictments

are of a similar magnitude.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentlelady’s time has expired.

Ms. MOORE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your indulgence.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Not a problem at all, my friend.

So with that, I am not seeing—I’m sorry. At this point, the Chair

would like to recognize Mr. Pittenger of North Carolina for 5 minutes.

Mr. PITTENGER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Hochberg, in just a brief elevator speech, would you kindly

define for me your mission?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Our mission is to support U.S. jobs and provide

financing through the form of guarantees, insurance, and loans,

when the private sector is unwilling or unable to do so—

Mr. PITTENGER. You see your goal, your objective, a wide range

of business interests to try to support their objectives?

Mr. HOCHBERG. It is to support U.S. job growth.

Mr. PITTENGER. And your loan portfolios, how much?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Approximately $112 billion.

Mr. PITTENGER. $112 billion. What was that portfolio in 2013?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I have that right here, in fact. In 2013, it was

slightly higher. It was just under $114 billion.

Mr. PITTENGER. $114 million?
56

Mr. HOCHBERG. Billion.

Mr. PITTENGER. Billion.

Mr. Hochberg, you stated a few minutes ago that 90 percent of

your loans are made to small businesses, correct?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is correct.

Mr. PITTENGER. I am reading here that in 2013, according to the

Ex-Im Bank’s own data, more than 60 percent of the Ex-Im Bank’s

financing benefited just 10 large corporations.

Mr. HOCHBERG. I think what we have to remember, Congressman, is those 10 corporations that you refer to all have very deep

supply chains. I was just in Georgia, a company called Tomco, a

small business that makes CO2—

Mr. PITTENGER. But the people who borrow the money, they

are—

Mr. HOCHBERG. They are a supplier to GE. The way—the reason—

Mr. PITTENGER. I reclaim my time. The people who borrowed the

money were those large corporations, though, is that correct?

Mr. HOCHBERG. And therefore pay the small businesses—

Mr. PITTENGER. But the loans—let’s be clear on the words that

were said. You said 90 percent of your loans were made to small

business.

Mr. HOCHBERG. No, 90 percent of the loans support small business exports. We don’t make—

Mr. PITTENGER. —exports. Okay.

Mr. HOCHBERG. And even those 10 large companies you are referring to, we are talking about their overseas customers, not the

company themselves.

Mr. PITTENGER. I think we had a word change there. And that

is fine.

Mr. Hochberg, do you believe that you have an agenda in your

role? Do you have a policy preference? Do you believe that your

goal is to support all businesses and create jobs, or do you have a

selective interest in what you do?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We are looking to support U.S. job growth that

need us. We have a few mandates from Congress that we obviously

guide our efforts, as well.

Mr. PITTENGER. Yes. And one of your mandates, of course, is to

support exports of green energy technology, is that right?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is one of the three mandates we have.

Mr. PITTENGER. That is right. And on the other hand, you have

adopted policies that permit almost no assistance to coal projects,

is that correct?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No, I would not say that is correct, sir.

Mr. PITTENGER. Let me quote you. Upon announcement of these

guidelines, you were quoted as saying, ‘‘Without guidelines or limits, ever-increasing numbers of new coal plants worldwide will just

continue to emit more carbon pollution into the air we breathe. I

strongly support the Administration’s efforts to build an international consensus such that other nations follow our lead in restricting financing of new coal-fired power plants.’’

That sounds like you have a pretty clear interest in perpetuating

your own agenda.
57

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congress has put in our charter since 1992 a requirement that we look at the environmental impacts of any export

we supply. We have to look at the creditworthy and the environmental impact. That goes back 23 years.

Mr. PITTENGER. Okay. But this contrasts with what you just said

a minute ago, that you didn’t have your own objectives.

But let me ask you as well, we looked at the creditworthiness.

In September of last year, the GAO reviewed the Bank’s underwriting procedures and found that the Bank wasn’t requiring simple things like using credit reports—we talked a little bit about

this, but I really want to delve into it a little bit more—verifying

that applicants did not have any delinquent Federal debt, or even

to merely inquire that all documentation analysis be in the loan

file before approval.

According to the GAO report—and if you would like, you can give

us an example which refutes this—your own manual did not include instructions for loan officers to use credit reports and for the

inclusion of all required documents and analysis in the loan file

prior to approval.

‘‘While Ex-Im’s review process called for transaction participants’

information to be checked against various databases, it did not include the recommended database that identified delinquent debt of

the transactions of participants.’’ Would you like to comment on

that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Congressman, I would say two things. We are

continually trying to improve our methods and do a better job of

underwriting. I was in business for 20 years, and that is what

every businessperson does. And we are trying to improve in this

case, as well.

One of the things we are looking at that we are having some discussions on is how we look at other—I believe you are referring to

other outstanding debts that a company may have before they can

apply for a loan or guarantee from us.

Mr. PITTENGER. I yield back my time.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman’s time has expired.

With that, the Chair recognizes the ranking member of the full

Financial Services Committee, Representative Waters of California.

Ms. WATERS. Thank you very much.

Under Secretary Nathan Sheets, I am looking at an ad that was

placed in Politico. And this ad basically raises the question, why

all the applause? And they have the pictures of Xi Jinping, the

president of the People’s Republic Of China; Vladimir Putin, the

president of the Russian Federation; and Francois Hollande, the

president of France.

And then it answers the question: They are applauding those in

Washington seeking to dismantle the U.S. Ex-Im Bank. And then

it asks, why? Because shutting down the U.S. Ex-Im Bank is good

for business and creates thousands of jobs in China, in Russia, and

in France. And then the ad goes on to say, ‘‘Don’t let American jobs

go overseas. Keep the playing field level for American businesses.

Reauthorize the Ex-Im Bank.’’

Now, until recently, most large official providers of export credits

were a party to the OECD arrangement which, as you know, sets
58

limits on the rates and terms that government-backed export credit

agencies can provide to their exporters.

However, according to Ex-Im Bank’s latest competitiveness report, as of 2013, two-thirds of all official export credit support went

beyond OECD guidelines. Much of this unregulated financing is offered by China, Brazil, India, and Russia on far more generous

terms than can be offered by Ex-Im Bank and other members of

the multilateral OECD arrangement.

Given this trend, it seems to me that this is exactly the wrong

time to be pushing to scale back or shut down the Bank altogether.

With many countries doubling down on their efforts to spur growth

by expanding exports with the support of export credit financing,

what would it take for these countries to entertain U.S. efforts to

push for a global reduction in export credit support?

Moreover, how much leverage does the United States actually

have in pushing for a multilateral reduction in export credit financing, when the world is well aware that efforts are already under

way in Congress to unilaterally shut down the Ex-Im Bank?

We have been talking a lot about this today. And this ad, even

though it is about one of the proponents for reauthorization, really

does describe what we have been talking about. How do these countries get away with ignoring the arrangement? And how big are

their efforts to do that?

Mr. SHEETS. Thank you. As you point out, the moves towards

unilateral curtailment of export credits would put us in a much

weaker position in our negotiations vis-a-vis these important

emerging market economies that you describe.

I think the incentive that they have—and it is what is driving

this international working group and our efforts to extend the protocols and the international agreements to include the major

emerging market economies—is a recognition that they benefit

from global integration. And that the only way they can integrate

sustainably into the global environment is by playing by the rules

of the game.

And this International Working Group is a vigorous effort by the

Treasury and others to bring them inside the periphery. It is also,

as I have said, a key objective in our multilateral engagement and

our bilateral engagement, to better articulate these best practices

and expand the periphery of export guidelines to the extent that

we can.

Ms. WATERS. Thank you very much. And let me just say this, I

have not been one to go around waving the flag all the time. But

I feel like we have been pushed around. I feel like the greatest

country in the world is being not only pushed around, but taken

advantage of.

And while we sit here talking about closing down our Export-Import Bank, we have people laughing at us and clapping and applauding, hoping that we do it. And I don’t like it. I yield back the

balance of my time.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentlelady yields back.

With that, the Chair recognizes the Chair of the full Oversight

and Government Reform Committee, Mr. Chaffetz, of Utah.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Thank you.
59

Mr. Hochberg, you indicated that you were in Panama with the President of the United States. This is a $6-plus billion transaction.

What is Ex-Im’s participation in that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Thank you for giving me that opportunity. The order is at $6.6 billion at list prices. That is not what the airline

will pay. We may do zero financing. I don’t know what we will do.

It is really—that order is going to be over a 9- to 12-year period.

And we provide—we are there purely as a backstop. Should the financial climate be such that they need our—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. You did participate—sorry, my time is

short—in 2010 in the transaction—this is with Copa Airlines?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Yes.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Yes. And in 2011, that was a value of

roughly $177 million?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I’m sorry. I am not sure I understand—you are saying we did a Copa transaction for $177—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. In the past, how many Copa transactions

have you done?

Mr. HOCHBERG. I don’t have that number off the top of my head.

I am happy to get it to you.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. It is in excess of $500 million. Would that

sound right?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That sounds like it is in the ballpark.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Why would that be? Why do you have to

help—

Mr. HOCHBERG. Why? We are looking at U.S. jobs and we are—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. —okay, no, no. Before you filibuster the

rest of this, what proof do you require to know that they can’t get

private sector financing? Why can’t Copa get private sector financing?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Copa does get a lot of private sector financing.

They just can’t finance 100 percent of their fleet privately.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. But how do you know that? Where do you

get this information?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We get that information both in talking to the

actual company, Copa, and we talk to banks and we get a sense

of what—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Let me read what Copa says, a Copa description of you, the Ex-Im Bank, ‘‘The Export-Import Bank provides guarantees to companies that purchase goods from U.S. companies for export, enabling them to obtain financing at substantially lower interest rates as compared to those that they could obtain without a guarantee.’’ That is true, isn’t it?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Actually, sir—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. It is true.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Let me answer the question. Do you want me to

answer the question—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Yes. It is a yes-or-no question—is it true or

false?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We have doubled the price that airlines pay for

financing in the last 5 years.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Is it true that you provide substantially

lower interest rates as compared to those they could obtain without

a guarantee? That is true, isn’t it?
60

Mr. HOCHBERG. We don’t lend them money, no. We provide a

guarantee. It is up to the bank to decide what the—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. And the American taxpayers are responsible for that. They are on the hook for that.

Mr. HOCHBERG. They pay a fee. And they have—we have a loan

loss reserve that backs up—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. But what Copa states in their documents

is accurate, isn’t it?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We don’t make a loan to Copa. We provide a

guarantee to the bank.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. But you provide it at a substantially lower

rate than they could get with private financing.

Mr. HOCHBERG. But we don’t—the rate is determined by the

bank, sir. It is not determined by the Ex-Im Bank. We don’t determine the rate.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Is it a lower rate or not?

Mr. HOCHBERG. The bank essentially is buying insurance on the

loan.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. I am just asking if it is a lower rate or not.

It is lower than the private sector.

Mr. HOCHBERG. The private sector is making the loan with our

guarantee. We are not making the loan.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. But consequently, they get a lower rate.

Mr. HOCHBERG. The interest rate is determined by the bank that

is making the loan, not by us.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Not for the guarantee.

Listen, what proof do you get from Copa, what documentation—

this is just one example—that they can’t get 100 percent private

sector financing?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We look at, do they need us, and we also look

at foreign competition. Our other goal is to level the playing field.

They have a choice of buying Boeing and Airbus. And part of our

charter says we need to level the playing field to make sure that

U.S. jobs are not put in jeopardy. This transaction will support—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. The question is, what documentation do

you get? How do you—

Mr. HOCHBERG. It is in their application. They have to assert and

make a representation, just like they have to make other representations in their application.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Will you provide that to this committee?

Mr. HOCHBERG. That representation?

Chairman CHAFFETZ. The Copa.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We can provide that information.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. You will provide the Copa documentation

to this committee by when?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Within a week. I—

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Fair enough. In a week, you will provide to

this committee all the paperwork on Copa, correct?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We can provide that to you.

Chairman CHAFFETZ. Thank you. I appreciate it.

I yield back.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman yields back.

Seeing no eligible Members on the Democrat side at this time,

we will recognize Mr. Carter of Georgia for 5 minutes.
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Mr. CARTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank all of you for

being here today. This is an issue that is very important to me and

of great interest to me and to my district.

Mr. Hochberg, can you, in your own words, describe to me what

the mission of the Ex-Im Bank is?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Let me try.

Mr. CARTER. Please.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Our goal—our mission—

Mr. CARTER. Quickly, if you don’t mind.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Our mission is to support U.S. jobs and when financing is not available in the private sector, or to level the playing field with foreign competition.

Mr. CARTER. Okay. Now, the line of questioning that you just finished, you were talking about interest rates. And that is of interest

to me. You don’t make the loans, you just guarantee the loans?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Correct. We do make some loans, but not in this

particular case.

Mr. CARTER. Let’s talk about the wide-body jets. Because that

seems to be a point of contention. It seems to be what a lot of people are concerned about. Do you make those loans?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We provide guarantees. We don’t make those directly.

Mr. CARTER. Okay. It is my understanding that the Ex-Im Bank

has brought back over a billion dollars, almost a billion dollars to

the budget. Is that true?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We are actually—CBO has scored us for $1 billion for 2016. That was the original score that CBO—

Mr. CARTER. Where does that money come from? If you are not

making loans, where are you making money?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. That comes from fees and loans—well, fees

we collect. And we do—on a small number of direct loans, we also

make some interest.

Mr. CARTER. Okay. Hang in with me here. Let me try to explain

to you where I am coming from.

Mr. HOCHBERG. Sure. Please.

Mr. CARTER. There are a lot of things that I don’t like in this

world. And I know that is hard to believe, but there are. And I

don’t like cronyism. I don’t bureaucracy. But more than anything,

I don’t like debt. And I don’t like the fact that our country has $18

trillion in debt. I just despise it. I think it is, as has been said, a

threat to our national security.

And I am trying to look for ways to satisfy that debt and to get

rid of that debt. I don’t want to do away with something that is

generating a billion dollars. But if you are not making the loans—

and what I am hearing from some of the critics is that well, they

make a loan to—they guarantee a loan to a foreign country in

order for that country to buy 12 wide-body jets. And the loan is so

good, the interest rate is so good, it is almost as if they pay for 11

and get the 12th one free.

I don’t like to hear that. That is not right. And I don’t think that

is the mission of the Ex-Im Bank. I don’t think that is what you

ought to be doing. Not only that, but we could have made money.

We could have made that money and put it toward our national

debt. Is that true?
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Mr. HOCHBERG. Sir, we actually make money and help pay the deficit. We sent $675 million for deficit reduction—

Mr. CARTER. But the point is, if that is true, you could have

made more. I appreciate that. But we need a lot more. We have

$18 trillion in debt. That is a lot of money. That is a lot of debt

we have to satisfy. And we need more.

Is it true what I am hearing? I am asking you, is it true that

these companies, when they buy 12 jets, they get such a good interest rate that they almost get a 13th one free?

Mr. HOCHBERG. No. I have never heard anything remotely close

to that assertion before. Never.

Mr. CARTER. But you admitted just a little while ago that they

do get a better interest rate?

Mr. HOCHBERG. They pay more than any U.S. carrier ever pays

for interest. We actually—we verify, whenever we do a transaction,

that U.S. carriers borrow at far better rates than any foreign carrier that we support.

Mr. CARTER. But it just occurs to me—I am a small businessman,

and when I go to the bank to borrow money, I don’t get the same

interest rate as a big company does. And I understand that. I get

that. I am a bigger risk. It appears to me that is part of your mission, to fill that void there and to help American companies to be

able to get that backing and that financing.

There is a price to that. And I just want to know, are you maximizing that price?

Mr. HOCHBERG. Our job is to maximize jobs, not to maximize

price.

Mr. CARTER. Okay. Well—

Mr. HOCHBERG. And let me just add, when it comes to wide-body

planes, sir, carriers—you refer to the Mideast. They can buy an

Airbus wide-body or a Boeing wide-body. We get the jobs in America, we get the jobs in Europe. That is our choice.

Mr. CARTER. I understand that. But, again, I think you are missing a great opportunity here. And we need it. We need it badly.

And I need you to focus more on how we can generate more income

for this country. I don’t want to raise taxes. Nobody wants to raise

taxes.

But if you ask me, because you are using the full faith and backing of the U.S. Government, should we be making money off of foreign countries and foreign companies? Yes. What is wrong with

that? We have $18 trillion in debt. We need to be making it somewhere. Remember, I am a businessman. I am looking for revenue.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We supported $27.5 billion worth of exports last

year alone.

Mr. CARTER. That is fine. But again, you can do better.

Mr. HOCHBERG. That is money—that is—

Mr. CARTER. But can we do better? That is my point.

Mr. HOCHBERG. We step back when the private sector can do it.

The only time we are stepping in is when the private sector can’t,

or to level the playing field.

Mr. CARTER. And there ought to be a price for that. That is my

point. You have it right there. That is my point. There ought to be

a price for that, for the full backing of the United States Government.
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Mr. HOCHBERG. That is where the $675 million is from.

Chairman HUIZENGA. The gentleman’s time has expired.

Mr. CARTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That was the fastest 5

minutes I have ever seen.

Chairman HUIZENGA. It is amazing how quickly it goes. That is

very true. I believe that my ranking member has a unanimous consent request.

Ms. MOORE. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to enter into the record an assessment that demonstrates that government export credit pricing, Ex-Im Bank pricing, is on par with commercial markets, and demonstrates that the

foreigners are paying more for credit than U.S. borrowers.

Chairman HUIZENGA. Without objection, it is so ordered.

And with that, actually, I have my own unanimous consent request. I would like to enter into the record a Wall Street Journal

article entitled, ‘‘Officials at Ex-Im Bank Face Investigations,’’

which was dated June 23, 2014.

And without objection, it is so ordered.

The good news is, we are almost done. The bad news for some

of you is, you are almost done. I do have a brief moment here, as

well, to take my 5 minutes. I don’t plan to take all 5 minutes.

But I do feel that this needs to be said. I appreciate, Mr. McCarthy, you coming forward with that information regarding some of

the other potential situations that you see with some of the Bank

employees. I think it is unfortunate it took 21⁄2 hours for us to get

to that point. But that is important information, nonetheless, to

have.

Mr. Hochberg, I do want to ask you about the best places to work

in the Federal Government rankings report that has come out. For

those who aren’t familiar with it, it is rankings that include the

views of over 92,000 Federal employees; 389 Federal organizations

are ranked according to overall employee satisfaction and commitment, as well as 10 additional workplace issues such as tragic management, teamwork, leadership, and life/work balance.

The Partnership for Public Service uses the data from the Office

of Personnel Management (OPM) Federal employee viewpoint survey, as well as surveys administered by 11 additional agencies to

put this into place.

In a resent survey conducted by the Partnership for Public Service on the best to worst places to work in government, unfortunately Ex-Im literally ranked dead last: 28 of 28 for ‘‘effective leadership,’’ in the most recent survey. This also caught my eye, ‘‘In the

category of support of diversity, there has been a decline of 20-

points since 2009, since this Administration has come into place.’’

That 20-point decline has allowed Ex-Im to slide to 27th out of

28 Federal best places to work. This is something else I think is

maybe relevant to what Mr. McCarthy is dealing with. When asked

if ‘‘my organization’s leaders maintain high standards of honesty

and integrity,’’ only 42 percent said yes. And asked whether they

could ‘‘disclose a suspected violation of any law, rule, or regulation

without fear of reprisal’’—this is whistle blowing—only 50 percent

of the employees responded yes, they would feel comfortable and

felt that they could disclose a violation of any law.
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I don’t know, Mr. McCarthy, if you are experiencing any of that

fear when you are going in and dealing with employees. That

would obviously be more than unfortunate if that is the case. I

don’t know if you care to elaborate?

But Mr. Hochberg, my question to you is, why do you think that

is? And what are you doing about that?

Mr. HOCHBERG. We take that very seriously, Mr. Chairman. We

have had a number of stresses on the agency, and frankly, the political environment has not helped. We were under construction for

the past 2 years. But I don’t want to just make those excuses.

I told you earlier in the hearing that we have made data and improving our data quality one of our top four priorities of the year.

And the other one is improving the workplace environment. I take

that very seriously. I meet constantly with employees. I meet with

them informally, have coffee with employees randomly selected

every month. We have a number of programs to make Ex-Im a

more first-tier place to work.

But let’s not mistake the fact that we have had the kind of—the

political environment, the threat of a shutdown has certainly—for

the last 3 years, our employees have been under extreme stress on

this.

Chairman HUIZENGA. But just a moment. This is not about overall. This is a ranking. So everybody has experienced that—

Mr. HOCHBERG. None of them has experienced a shutdown—

Chairman HUIZENGA. —including my own employees who got

furloughed. And stresses of building, just ask the people in Cannon,

ask the people anywhere around. That is happening all the time.

I guess my question to you, maybe to refine that is, would you

be willing to share with your committee and the oversight committee here, subcommittees, specifically what your plan is? Because

I find it very disturbing that in the past 5 years, 6 years, this agency has slid 20 points in its ranking in support of diversity.

If that is something that is important, we saw this—not—this is

not your bailiwick. But we saw some similar things with the CFPB

and other places, where there is a feeling that there is a hostile

work environment. And if you have 50 percent of your employees

who believe that they could come under some sort of reprisal for

being a whistleblower, that does not bode well. That has nothing

to do with workplace stress and whether government is getting

shut down—

This is extremely serious. I would anticipate you sharing that

with us. And I would assume my colleagues on the other side of

the aisle would be very, very concerned about that, as well, and

would like to have that.

With that, I would like to thank our witnesses, especially those

who maybe weren’t as actively engaged in the conversation. You

may be thankful for that, as well. But we do appreciate and value

your time for appearing with us today.

The Chair notes that some Members may have additional questions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing.

Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without ob-
65

jection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous

materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record.

And if there is no further business, without objection, our joint

subcommittees stand adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 1:15 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

(67)

APPENDIX

April 15, 2015
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