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90–917 PDF 2014

S. Hrg. 113–735 

BORDER SECURITY: EXAMINING THE 

IMPLICATIONS OF S. 1691, THE BORDER PATROL 

AGENT PAY REFORM ACT OF 2013 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JUNE 9, 2014 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/ 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

MARK BEGICH, Alaska 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire 

GABRIELLE A. BATKIN. Staff Director 

JOHN P. KILVINGTON, Deputy Staff Director 

MARY BETH SCHULTZ, Chief Counsel 

KATHERINE C. SYBENA, Senior Counsel 

BLAS NUNEZ-NETO, Senior Professional Staff Member 

KEITH B. ASHDOWN, Minority Staff Director 

CHRISTOPHER J. BARKLEY, Minority Deputy Staff Director 

ANDREW C. DOCKHAM, Minority Chief Counsel 

GABRIELLE D’ADAMO SINGER, Minority Counsel 

CORY P. WILSON, Minority Secret Service Detailee 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Chief Clerk 

LAUREN M. CORCORAN, Hearing Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 1 

Senator Coburn ................................................................................................. 3 

Senator Tester .................................................................................................. 4 

Prepared statements: 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 35 

Senator Coburn ................................................................................................. 37 

WITNESSES 

MONDAY, JUNE 9, 2014 

Ronald D. Vitiello, Deputy Chief, U.S. Border Patrol, U.S. Customs and 

Border Protection, U.S. Department of Homeland Security ............................. 5 

Brandon Judd, President, National Border Patrol Council .................................. 7 

Paul L. Hamrick, Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Office of Internal Affairs, 

U.S. Customs and Border Protection, U.S. Department of Homeland Security ......................................................................................................................... 8

Adam Miles, Deputy Special Counsel for Policy and Congressional Affairs, 

U.S. Office of Special Counsel ............................................................................. 10 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Hamrick, Paul L.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 8 

Joint prepared statement with attachment ................................................... 41 

Judd, Brandon: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 48 

Miles, Adam: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 10 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 50 

Vitiello, Ronald D.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Joint prepared statement with attachment ................................................... 41 

APPENDIX 

Papers submitted by Senator Coburn .................................................................... 56 

Prepared statement submitted by Deputy Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas ........ 60 

Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record: 

Mr. Vitiello and Mr. Hamrick .......................................................................... 61 

Mr. Judd ............................................................................................................ 85 

Mr. Miles ........................................................................................................... 98 

(1) 

BORDER SECURITY: EXAMINING THE 

IMPLICATIONS OF S. 1691, THE BORDER 

PATROL PAY REFORM ACT OF 2013 

MONDAY, JUNE 9, 2014 

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:34 p.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Carper, Tester, and Coburn. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CARPER 

Chairman CARPER. The hearing will come to order. 

Welcome, everyone. I am going to make a pretty short statement 

here and turn it to Dr. Coburn, and Senator Tester, if you would 

like to make a statement, as well, that would be great. I understand that Senator McCain is tied up. My thanks to our colleagues, 

our witnesses, for working with our staffs to enable us to put this 

hearing together fairly quickly. 

The purpose, as you know, of this hearing is to examine the merits of S. 1691, the Border Patrol Agent Pay Reform Act (BPAPRA) 

of 2014, introduced by Senators Tester and McCain, cosponsored by 

Senators Heitkamp and Ayotte. This bill would make badly needed 

reforms to the overtime system of the Border Patrol, which is currently too complicated and too difficult to manage. 

Before I get into the bill, I want to briefly talk about what is 

happening currently along our borders. Over the past few years, we 

have seen a surge in unauthorized migration from Central America, which is nearing record highs. An unprecedented number of 

people we are apprehending at the border are unaccompanied children, some as young as 10 years of age. Our laws—appropriately— 

require that these vulnerable children be treated differently than 

other migrants. They must be transferred to the Department of 

Health and Human Services (HHS) and there are strict rules about 

their care. Secretary Johnson, last week, announced that he was 

creating an interagency task force and devoting additional resources to coordinate the care and resettling of these children. I 

commend that announcement. 

Since I became Chairman of this Committee 18 months ago, I 

visited the Southern Border with Mexico in Arizona and Texas on 

a number of occasions. I have seen firsthand the crowded condi-
2 

1The prepared statement of Senator Coburn appears in the Appendix on page 35. 

tions at our Border Patrol stations in the Rio Grande Valley (RGV). 

I have also visited Mexico, Guatemala, and El Salvador, and I hope 

to spend some time down in Honduras. 

What I have come to understand is that what happens along our 

borders is only a symptom of the problem. It is not the underlying 

cause. Today’s hearing will focus on how we can better address one 

of these symptoms by increasing enforcement. The Tester-McCain 

bill we are examining today will save, we hope—taxpayers money, 

hopefully a good deal of it, and increase our ability to patrol—and 

secure—our borders. In fact, one estimate I have seen shows that 

this bill would add the equivalent of 1,400 agents to the border. 

That is a lot. 

Given the challenges we face on the border, which have only 

been underscored by recent events, I have to say that moving this 

bill would seem like, on the surface, to be a no-brainer. I fully support moving forward with the bill as soon as possible. 

And, while we need to do all we can to treat these symptoms, we 

cannot stop there. It is critical that we understand and address the 

root causes of why all these people are willing to literally risk everything, life and limb, to come here in the first place and to struggle through Mexico to get here. Based on what I have seen in my 

trips to some of these countries, those root causes are lack of economic opportunity and hope and deteriorating security situations 

in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. I describe it as squeezing the balloon in one place, Northern Mexico. The bad guys go 

south. A lot of them ended up in those three Central American 

countries and they are creating not just mischief, but mayhem. 

Nearly one year ago, the Senate passed a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform measure that addresses many of the root 

causes of undocumented immigration. And while the bill is imperfect, it is a significant improvement over the status quo and provides our Nation with an important opportunity to fix our broken 

immigration system and grow our Nation’s economy by almost one 

trillion dollars. But, in order for this solution to become law, we 

need our colleagues in the House to act. We also need to do a better 

job at helping Central American countries improve their prospects 

for their young people and those not so young by helping provide 

them with jobs and safe and secure communities and a future, so 

they stay and build their own countries instead of trying to get to 

ours. 

On June 19, I will be convening a roundtable of experts from 

across the U.S. Government, to multilateral banks, as well as private institutions to discuss how we continue to improve the prospects of young people and not-so-young people in these Central 

American countries, and I would urge and invite all of our colleagues in this Committee to join us for this roundtable.1

Dr. Coburn, please. 
3 

1The prepared statement of Senator Coburn appears in the Appendix on page 37. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COBURN 

Senator COBURN. Well, first of all, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and 

thanks to Senator Tester and Senator McCain as well as Senator 

Portman. Senators Portman and Tester held an important hearing 

on this in January and I am the one that asked for this hearing 

because—two points I would make. 

One is, with the Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime 

(AUO), my goal is not to take anything away from our Border Patrol Agents, and we have, I think, about 900 or so that AUO is no 

longer authorized for. The goal should be adequate pay for the risk 

and effort that they put in. But, I am really concerned about what 

we are doing here in terms of setting up a system that could become governmentwide, and the question I ask as both a former accountant and a former business manager is if, in fact, we need to 

have about $28,000 above, or $29,000 above a GS–12 maxed out 

the way we are going to do this, why would we not just change the 

base pay? Why would we not just change the base pay system rather than have this overtime system? 

The other question that I have associated with what we are 

doing is, things change, and what we are doing is we are talking 

about putting a payment system into statute that guarantees a certain amount of overtime every pay period that is not a part of contractual obligations. This is statute. So, I am a little concerned 

about that, as well, because if, in fact, the border becomes more difficult, requiring greater risk, requiring greater expertise, we are 

going to be somewhat limited by how we have done this. 

So, I am looking forward to asking questions to try to get settled 

in my mind: how do we compensate our Border Patrol Agents at 

the level at which they have been being compensated and make 

sure they are secure in the future? I do not want to take 25 percent 

of anybody’s pay away, and that is not our intent. Our intent is to 

make sure it does not go away as we reform AUO. 

The other point that I would make is there are a lot of positions 

within the Border Patrol that do not have to do a write-up at the 

end of the day, do not have to travel back from a position assignment, and yet we are including all those in this that should not 

have an AUO payment. In other words, their jobs should not require it. And so the characteristics of the mix is important to me, 

as well. 

So, what I want to do is get answers to critical questions today. 

I have a statement that is written for the record.1

And, again, I want to fix this. I am not trying to stop it from getting fixed. My understanding is a very limited number of people no 

longer have AUO as a comparison to the total workforce, and I 

want to make sure when we fix it, we fix it right, and we also fix 

it in a way that the House is going to accede to so that we actually 

solve the problem. 

So, I appreciate, really, Senator Tester’s acquiescence on not 

moving this bill on the last markup and pledge my support to get 

this problem solved when I get my questions answered. 

Chairman CARPER. Good enough. 

All right. Senator Tester, good to see you. 
4 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR TESTER 

Senator TESTER. Well, thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking 

Member Coburn, and I think I could answer your questions now, 

but I think it would be better left to the expert panelists to answer 

the questions about things changing, because I think you are right. 

Things do change. That is really why we are here today, is because 

things have changed. 

Senator McCain and I introduced this legislation a little over a 

year ago, and we did have a hearing back in January. Since our 

initial introduction, we have worked closely with the Customs and 

Border Protection (CBP), the Border Patrol Union, the Department 

of Homeland Security (DHS), the Office of Personnel Management 

(OPM), and others to make this bill even stronger. We have worked 

together, something that is fairly uncommon in the Senate these 

days. It is cosponsored by Senators Heitkamp and Ayotte, and a 

companion bill is in the House, sponsored by Representative 

Chaffetz and a host of others, both Democrats and Republicans. 

The bill is supported by both the CBP and the Border Patrol 

Union, which represents 16,500 agents in the field. 

It saves money. It creates more stability for Border Agents and 

their families, and it increases manpower along the border, so the 

security is increased and the agents are better equipped to do those 

jobs that are so very important to all of us. 

The reform of the Border Patrol pay system is long overdue. The 

operational needs from 40 years ago are quite different from the 

criminal operations that we see on the border today. Things have 

changed. We have waited long enough. We need to move forward 

with this bill because it ensures stability for our Border Patrol 

Agents and makes sure that our borders are properly manned. 

In the end, I appreciate the opportunity to have a full Committee 

hearing on this bill. I can tell you that as I look at this bill, it increases enforcement, it saves money, and I think it makes—it allows for our borders to be as secure as they possibly can to meet 

the dangers of terrorism, drugs, and illegal immigration that is so 

common on both Northern and Southern Borders. 

So, with that, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Coburn, I appreciate the opportunity to hear from our witnesses and be able to 

ask them questions about this important issue and hopefully end 

up being able to get this bill out of this Committee and off the floor 

of the Senate and over to the House. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CARPER. You bet. Thank you very much, Senator Tester. 

Let me just take a minute to welcome our panel of distinguished 

witnesses and I will just give very brief introductions. 

Our first witness is Ron Vitiello. Mr. Vitiello is Deputy Chief in 

the U.S. Border Patrol. In this capacity, he is responsible for the 

daily operation of the Border Patrol and routinely assists in planning and directing nationwide enforcement and administrative operations. Deputy Chief Vitiello was one of the contributors to the 

unification of U.S. Customs and Border Protection and the creation 

of the Department of Homeland Security. Is that true? 

Mr. VITIELLO. I was on detail with the Department during the 

stand-up. 
5 

1The prepared joint statement of Mr. Vitiello appears in the Appendix on page 41. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Good. Thank you. Good to see you. 

Our second witness is Brandon Judd. Mr. Judd has more than 

15 years of experience as a Border Patrol Agent. He currently 

serves as President of the National Border Patrol Council, representing more than 17,000 Border Patrol Agents and support 

staff. Mr. Judd has spent much of his career on the Southwest Border in the El Centro, California, and Tucson, Arizona, Sectors. In 

the past, he has been stationed as a Field Training Officer and Canine Officer at one of the busiest border crossings in Naco, Arizona. 

And, from 2001 to 2002, he was an instructor at the Border Patrol 

Academy. Welcome, Mr. Judd. Nice to see you. 

Our next witness is Paul Hamrick. Mr. Hamrick is the Deputy 

Assistant Commissioner of the Office of Internal Affairs (OIA) for 

U.S. Customs and Border Protection, a post he has held since 2012. 

I understand that Mr. Hamrick just became our witness this morning due to some leadership changes announced by the Commissioner today. That is not much warning, but thanks for joining us. 

We very much appreciate Mr. Hamrick stepping up to serve as our 

witness, given his extensive knowledge of the issue we are going 

to discuss today. He joined the Customs Service in 1986 as a Special Agent. He has been with the Office of Internal Affairs since 

2007. Thank you again for joining us on such short notice. 

Our final witness is Adam Miles. Mr. Miles is the Director of Policy and Congressional Affairs at the U.S. Office of Special Counsel 

(OSC). Prior to joining the Office of Special Counsel, he was on the 

staff of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. We thank you for your service. 

We thank all of you for your service and for your testimony 

today. If you want to give us your testimony in roughly 5 minutes, 

that would be fine. If you run a little over it, that is OK. If you 

run way over that, we will have to rein you in, and then we will 

start some questions. But, we are glad you here and look forward 

to an informative hearing. Thank you all for joining us. 

And, Mr. Vitiello, why do you not go first. 

TESTIMONY OF RONALD D. VITIELLO,1 DEPUTY CHIEF, U.S. 

BORDER PATROL, U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Mr. VITIELLO. Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member 

Coburn, distinguished Members of the Committee. Thank you for 

the opportunity to appear before you today to address the need for 

Border Patrol Agent pay reform. 

This is a matter of concern to the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, and the U.S. Border Patrol. We welcome the opportunity to work with you in finding solutions at an affordable cost. 

The DHS and the Border Patrol missions require properly paying 

our border security personnel and properly managing their pay system. Our application of overtime, specifically Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime, stretches back many years, but existing 

AUO authorities no longer meet the needs of a modern Border Patrol. 
6 

S. 1691, Border Patrol Agent Pay Reform Act, would replace 

AUO with a system that controls costs, fairly compensates certain 

agents for irregular and necessary work, and maximizes agent capability for critical law enforcement and border security responsibilities. If enacted, it would ensure that the entire Border Patrol 

workforce is scheduled to continue work and meet mission requirements beyond the eighth hour of his or her shift while providing 

predictable rotations around the clock. Agents would receive compensation for any work over 8 hours per day and would remain eligible for other types of scheduled overtime when emergencies occur 

or special mission sets require it. 

In addition to increasing patrol hour capacity by over 2.5 million 

hours, the Act would reduce overall costs. It would eliminate Fair 

Labor Standard Act (FLSA) pay, FLSA compensation, for most 

agent assignments, which totaled $105 million in 2013. Based on 

the cost estimates briefed by CBP, BPAPRA would save $38 to $67 

million annually. 

Border Patrol has a business practice and leadership development requirement that relies on agents rotating into and out of 

headquarters assignments and the training environment. This 

maintains up-to-date field experience in those positions. It prepares 

leaders as they advance. Like other Federal law enforcement agencies, this bill contemplates portable pay for employees who cycle 

through those assignments and back out into the field. The cost to 

train and maintain an agent’s skills is considerable, and scheduling 

overtime is much more cost effective than getting the equivalent 

number of hours via more agents. CBP moves resources around the 

country to maximize their impact and is committed to continuing 

to do so. 

The bill also provides strict thresholds and management controls, 

which will ensure cost savings and mission capability. Without relief legislatively, effectiveness will suffer and morale is very likely 

to take a downward turn. 

We commend the Committee’s commitment to modernizing the 

pay structure for Border Patrol Agents and for proposing legislation that would provide CBP the flexibility to administer a credible, 

cost efficient, and equitable compensation system that would meet 

the needs of a 21st Century Border Patrol. We look forward to continuing to work with Congress on this endeavor. 

Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Coburn, Members of the 

Committee, I look forward to this opportunity and answering all 

your questions. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Thanks, Mr. Vitiello. 

Mr. Judd, you are recognized. Please proceed. 
7 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Judd appears in the Appendix on page 48. 

2The map referenced by Mr. Judd appears in the Appendix on page 47. 

TESTIMONY OF BRANDON JUDD,1 PRESIDENT, NATIONAL 

BORDER PATROL COUNCIL 

Mr. JUDD. Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Coburn, Senator 

Tester, on behalf of the 16,500 Border Patrol Agents whom I represent, I would like to thank you for having this hearing today to 

discuss S. 1691. I would especially like to thank Senator Tester, 

and if Senator McCain were here, I would like to thank them for 

introducing this important legislation. 

Instead of reading a prepared statement—I have given that to 

you last Thursday—I would like to speak with you. I am looking 

forward more to answering your questions than to giving you a prepared statement that you already have. But, there are a couple key 

issues that I would like to point out. 

The first issue is we are no longer dealing with mom and pop 

smuggling organizations on the border. We are dealing with sophisticated criminal cartels. They control all traffic that is happening 

that comes into the United States and that goes into Mexico. They 

also control the illegal activity that happens on the Northern Border and on the Coastal Border. 

Approximately a year ago, all Border Patrol agents were notified 

that their hours per 2-week pay period would be cut from 100-plus 

down to approximately 95. Since that time, we have seen almost 

an immediate increase of smuggling across the border. In fact, on 

the map up here,2 not only are we seeing an increase in the RGV 

Sector—we know about that tidal wave that is currently happening—but we have seen an increase in important corridors like 

El Paso, Texas, San Diego, California. These were considered operationally controlled areas. They have increased in arrests in the 

last year since we have cut these hours by nearly 15 percent. 

We have also seen, Senator Tester, in your neck of the woods, in 

Havre, Montana, we have seen an increase in arrests since these 

hours were cut by nearly 50 percent. That is a huge increase. We 

have also seen an increase on the Coastal Border, in Miami, Florida. We have seen an increase by almost 30 percent on the Coastal 

Border. These cartels know what we do, how we do it, and when 

we do it. They know when we are vulnerable, and right now, due 

to the hours that have been cut, we are vulnerable. Fifty percent 

in Havre, Montana—that is huge. 

The second point that I would like to address is the retention. 

In Senator McCain’s neck of the woods, the busiest station in the 

Tucson Sector, historically, one of the busiest stations in the entire 

Nation—I believe it currently seizes more drugs than any other 

Border Patrol station in the Nation—we have seen 5 percent of the 

workforce leave in the last year due to the number of hours that 

have been cut and the pay reduction that we are experiencing. We 

also have another 15 percent at this station alone who have pending applications in for other agencies. We cannot afford to lose 20 

percent of a station, especially a station that is so important to the 

Tucson Sector, but that is what is happening under the economic 

climate. 
8 

1The prepared joint statement of Mr. Hamrick appears in the Appendix on page 41. 

The last point that I would like to make, and I would like to read 

this statement, back in 1997, when I came into the Border Patrol, 

the recruitment that I was offered was 25 percent Administratively 

Uncontrollable Overtime for the rest of my career. That is what we 

were told we were going to get. That has now been cut. We no 

longer have that, and there are two reasons, budgetary issues and 

legal issues. 

We approached Congress 4 years ago and we tried to get the 

powers that be to amend the AUO laws to allow us to continue to 

do what we need to do to control the border. Unfortunately, because it is an expensive system, we could not get any traction. Because of that, we have worked diligently with the agency to come 

up with a plan that will satisfy all parties. It will satisfy the taxpayers in a huge cost savings. It will satisfy the agency, as it will 

give the number of hours that are needed on the border to secure 

the border. And, it will satisfy the Border Patrol Agents as we will 

have a consistent and constant paycheck that we will know what 

it is year to year. 

I want to make it clear that no Border Patrol Agent is happy about the prospect of losing $6,400 per year. We recently made another push to keep FLSA, but we were again unsuccessful. We are 

sacrificing a lot, but in the end, it will prove to be a boon for border 

security, the American public, the agency, and the agents whom I 

represent. It is very rare that Congress has the opportunity to consider a piece of legislation that saves money and enhances the 

agency’s capability, and that is exactly what this does. 

I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. 

Chairman CARPER. Thanks for your testimony. 

Mr. Hamrick, please proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF PAUL L. HAMRICK,1 DEPUTY ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER, OFFICE OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS, U.S. CUSTOMS 

AND BORDER PROTECTION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Mr. HAMRICK. Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Coburn, Senator Tester, it is a privilege to appear before you today to discuss 

the ongoing review of Customs and Border Protection’s overtime 

compensation systems, specifically those used by the U.S. Border 

Patrol. Properly paying our border security personnel and appropriately managing our pay systems are essential to the CBP mission. 

CBP’s application of overtime, specifically AUO, the primary 

compensation system used by the Border Patrol, stretches back 

many years. Established more than 40 years ago, AUO is a payment mechanism that allows for the compensation of certain employees for irregular, unscheduled, but necessary overtime. Approximately 77 percent of AUO paid at DHS goes to employees of 

CBP, including more than 20,000 Border Patrol Agents. In order to 

be eligible for AUO, an employee must be in a position in which 

the hours of duty cannot be controlled administratively and which 

require substantial amounts of irregular or occasional overtime 

work. 
9 

CBP takes seriously its responsibility to ensure the proper use of 

taxpayer funds. While many front-line officers and agents across 

the Department require work hour flexibility, often through the use 

of AUO, misuse of these funds is not tolerated. Within DHS components, allegations of misconduct that are raised by employees are 

typically provided to and handled by component internal affairs offices and/or the DHS Office of Inspector General, in conjunction 

with the component’s human resources office. If merited, employees 

found to have engaged in misconduct are subject to disciplinary action. 

CBP’s Office of Internal Affairs conducted a series of investigative inquiries regarding the alleged improper use of AUO by specific entities within CBP. Internal Affairs field offices in Washington, D.C., Houston, Texas, San Diego, California, and Seattle, 

Washington, conducted AUO-related investigations at specific Border Patrol sector headquarters, stations, training entities, and the 

CBP Commissioner’s situation room. 

Although the Office of Special Counsel received complaints that 

overtime hours compensated under AUO were not being worked— 

allegations that, if proven, could constitute criminal or administrative violations—our investigations did not substantiate any OSC allegations that employees had received AUO compensation for hours 

that were not worked. The investigations did, however, substantiate aspects of the allegations that questioned whether AUO was 

the appropriate mechanism for specific overtime compensation. 

In short, the investigations determined that work was conducted, 

and, importantly, even where AUO was not the proper overtime 

mechanism, CBP had an obligation and CBP employees had an entitlement to be appropriately compensated for the overtime hours 

worked. 

DHS and CBP have taken steps to address the situation. On January 27, Secretary Johnson issued a memorandum directing component leadership to take immediate action to suspend AUO for certain categories of employees on an interim basis. As a result, approximately 600 CBP headquarters personnel, full-time trainers, 

and employees found to have misused AUO in completed investigations were suspended from receiving AUO. 

After additional review, on May 23, Deputy Secretary Mayorkas 

issued a memo directing components to develop a comprehensive 

agency plan within 30 days to address AUO compliance issues. The 

components will also work with the DHS Management Directorate 

to develop a Department-wide directive formalizing these efforts 

and new reforms. The directive will include requirements for independent audits of AUO records and mandate disciplinary measures 

for those who violate AUO policies in the future, including supervisors and managers who permit employees to misuse AUO. 

Until such time the CBP can address all of its AUO compliance 

issues, CBP leadership has directed additional interim measures, 

such as a comprehensive position review of AUO eligibility, to 

eliminate CBP’s use of AUO where the available evidence suggests 

that its use is impermissible. 

Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Coburn, Senator Tester, 

thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. I look forward 

to answering your questions. 
10 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Miles appears in the Appendix on page 50. 

Chairman CARPER. Mr. Hamrick, thanks again for showing up on 

such short notice and testifying. 

The next and final witness is Adam Miles. Please proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF ADAM MILES,1 DEPUTY SPECIAL COUNSEL 

FOR POLICY AND CONGRESSIONAL AFFAIRS, U.S. OFFICE OF 

SPECIAL COUNSEL 

Mr. MILES. Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Coburn, and 

Senator Tester, thanks very much for inviting me to testify today 

on behalf of the United States Office of Special Counsel. I am 

pleased to have the opportunity to discuss OSC’s cases and our ongoing work to address widespread misuse of overtime payments to 

DHS employees. 

I want to acknowledge quickly OSC’s DHS Overtime Team, many 

of whom are sitting behind me: Catherine McMullen, Lynn Alexander, Johanna Oliver, Nadia Pluta, and Treyer Mason Gale. Together, their work with whistleblowers has helped to identify and 

address over $37 million in annual misuse of overtime pay. 

Special Counsel Carolyn Lerner’s October 31, 2013, communication to Congress and the President outlined longstanding concerns 

about systemic misuse of Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime. This is an issue OSC first addressed in 2007. 

The communication in October 2013 prompted significant debate 

on the legitimacy and legality of AUO payments to DHS employees, 

and particularly within CBP. Encouraging this type of discussion, 

with the goal of rooting out waste and achieving meaningful reform, is at the heart of OSC’s mission. As stated in OSC’s October 

31 letter, abuse of overtime pay is a violation of the public trust 

and a gross waste of scarce government funds. It is incumbent 

upon DHS to take effective steps to curb the abuse, and it is up 

to the administration and Congress to develop a revised pay system, if warranted, that ensures fair compensation for employees 

who are legitimately working overtime. 

Since October 2013, and particularly in response to Senator Tester’s Subcommittee hearing in January 2014, DHS has taken steps 

to place better controls on AUO use. This includes decertifying at 

least some of the positions where employees should not be collecting AUO payments. While it has taken many years and more 

needs to be done, we are encouraged by the steps that DHS is now 

taking. 

In addition, as OSC told Senator Tester’s Subcommittee in January, we are also pleased that Congress is helping CBP to find ways 

to solve this longstanding problem, including through legislative reform. While OSC does not have a position on the Border Patrol Pay 

Reform Act of 2013, our update today on pending cases will provide 

some context for the Committee as it considers the legislation. 

In particular, I want to compare and contrast two recent reports 

that were prepared by OIA and set sort of the legal and factual 

framework for this discussion. These were in response to whistleblower disclosures at an asset forfeiture office in San Diego, California, and CBP’s Laredo North Station in Laredo, Texas. 
11 

The whistleblowers in these cases and in 14 others that came to 

OSC separately from locations all around the country had basically 

the identical disclosures, that Border Patrol Agents or Immigration 

and Custom Enforcement (ICE) Officers claimed 2 hours of AUO 

each day, but the extra 2 hours of overtime work are unlawful because they do not meet the requirements for AUO. 

The reports to OSC, again, prepared by OIA substantiated the 

core allegations. The reports confirmed that agents in these locations basically just extend their regular shifts by 2 hours every 

day, routinely, and that is in violation of AUO rules that require 

unpredictable or irregular law enforcement or compelling reasons 

to stay on duty. 

In addition to the across-the-board substantiation of the AUO 

misuse, there are key differences in the reports that I think are 

worth going through, and these are based on the duties of the 

agents in those locations. 

I want to start by addressing the Border Patrol Agents in Laredo, Texas. The OIA report noted that the agents claimed AUO in 

order to complete the post-shift work necessary to travel back and 

forth from a border assignment to the station. They call it routine 

post-shift activities. The agents that were interviewed by OIA all 

indicated that the post-shift activity simply cannot be completed in 

8 hours. Border Patrol managers insisted in the report that employing 10-hour shifts is the most cost-effective approach to securing the border, even if that means misusing AUO as it is currently 

used. 

As Congress considers legislative proposals to address AUO misuse, it may want to consider the arguments in support of a 10-hour 

shift and the unique demands on agents in areas like Laredo, 

Texas. 

The reports on San Diego, California, and a similar report addressing AUO abuse at the training facility in Glynco, Georgia, 

present different issues. They illustrate simply how broadly AUO 

misuse extends within CBP. For example, the report states that 

some Border Patrol Agents in San Diego work as paralegals. The 

Border Patrol Agents assigned to paralegal duties work a scheduled 10-hour shift and claim 2 hours of AUO daily, just like agents 

in the field. The report notes that Border Patrol Agents in the parallel section have the same duties as non-Border Patrol Agents in 

the section, who are referred to as civilians. For example, the paralegal Border Patrol Agents, they send out notices on seized properties and they draft correspondence and do other tasks in support 

of law enforcement efforts, but they are basically in an office setting. The non-Border Patrol Agents with the same duties are not 

eligible for AUO and do not work 10-hour shifts, yet, they sit sideby-side with the Border Patrol Agents who are working the 10-hour 

shift. 

So, again, as Congress considers pay reform, it may want to consider whether and to what extent pay reform should cover Border 

Patrol Agents assigned to paralegal or other office roles where nonBorder Patrol Agents have the same duties, but are not eligible for 

AUO. And the same issue is present with instructors at the Glynco, 

Georgia, Training Academy and is summarized in detail in my 

written statement. 
12 

I hope this information is useful to the Committee’s deliberations 

and would be pleased to answer your questions. Thanks very much 

for having me. 

Chairman CARPER. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

Thanks to all of you. 

I see we have a couple of cameras here, and I presume this may 

be broadcast on C–SPAN. There are some people watching this 

around the country, or will later tonight or tomorrow, and they are 

going to want to know, what are they talking about? And, I am just 

going to start off, and I asked our staff, I said, who among these 

four witnesses can actually explain this so that someone watching 

on television, somebody who is maybe not even here on this Committee, somebody who might have stumbled into the room could actually understand what is the problem we are trying to fix, all 

right. What is it? And, do not use acronyms. Use just regular language and just explain it. 

Mr. Vitiello, what are we trying to fix here? What is the problem 

we are trying to fix? 

Mr. VITIELLO. We are trying to get ourselves in a situation where 

Border Patrol Agents are sufficiently ready and capable and authorized, in whatever format, to engage in post-shift activities. And 

so all agents are scheduled for 8 hours a day, and if you were on 

a factory floor and your boss came in at the end of the shift and 

said, ‘‘I need you to stay. Someone is not coming for the next shift,’’ 

they would ask you to stay and perform that same activity for the 

subsequent 8 hours, and in most factory settings, that would be 

double-time. That would be considered overtime. 

The government is not different in the sense that it requires people to stay on their shift or to do things at the end of their shift 

that prepare the rest of the team to be better informed and prepared as they deploy. So, there needs to be an overlap, an exchange 

of information, and so the government calls that overtime. 

In the current configuration, that is called Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime. It is more complex as it relates to AUO, because the statute allows for individual agents to assess what mission requirements are in front of them and, in essence, self-deploy 

against the work that is in front of them. 

Now, that is a good thing back in the day when it was established because it allowed agents the flexibility to work, even 

though their shift might have been over. The other good thing it 

does is it allows for people not to watch the clock. If there is work 

in front of them that is necessary for the mission, they can complete that work. 

What this legislation proposes is to continue that practice, but it 

covers all the work post-shift, so, whether it is, in fact, chasing a 

group, or arresting people, or preserving the chain of custody for 

evidence, or informing the next shift, or things that are in an administrative setting that prepare the next team to be more capable 

in the shift. 

Now, I think it is important to recognize that in this setting, 

both for AUO and what is contemplated in the legislation, it is 

straight time. So, the compensation for the first hour of the shift 

and the compensation for the tenth hour of the shift in this configuration would be the same rate of pay. 
13 

Chairman CARPER. All right. What concerns have been raised, 

and you can answer this if you want, or if someone else is better 

prepared, that would be fine. But, the concerns about abuse, how 

the current system has been abused or rewarded people who should 

not be rewarded in this manner. Could someone just speak to that 

for us? And, maybe, Mr. Miles, you might be the best person to do 

so. 

Mr. MILES. So—— 

Chairman CARPER. Concerns have been raised. Talk to us about 

those concerns. 

Mr. MILES. They have—— 

Chairman CARPER. And, the next question I am going to ask is, 

what has the Department tried to do about this on its own, and 

then talk with us about the legislation. So, what are the concerns 

about abuses? 

Mr. MILES. So, the CBP witnesses are going to be in a much better position to discuss the changed circumstances and why it is 

that this overtime authority is being misused. But, in general, decades ago, when AUO was first developed, the idea was that the 

border was very big and there were not a whole lot of agents, and 

so if somebody needed to stay after hours to arrest somebody or to 

follow a lead, then they were able to do that, and they did not have 

to report back to headquarters, they did not have to call up their 

boss and ask, ‘‘Can I stay on the job?’’ 

Now, the situation has changed. There are more agents and the 

border has not grown, but technology has been developed quite a 

bit. And so the way in which the border is being guarded has 

changed significantly, and again, I am way out of my lane in talking about law enforcement issues, but now, it is much more regular, it is much more routine, and it is much more predictable, the 

way that agents are being told to fulfill their duties. And so the 

legal framework, the statutory framework that allows for this overtime compensation authority says that it has to be unpredictable. 

But, when you look at the reports that have come into OSC and 

what 16 whistleblowers from across the country have told us is 

that, basically, the way that AUO is being used is the exact opposite of how it was intended. It is routine. It is daily. It is 2 hours 

a day. And, it is, in contrast to the rules that require irregular, unpredictable, and you cannot control it, you cannot manage it. And 

so there is a core legal problem with the way that AUO is being 

used. 

And then we have had secondary allegations that were addressed 

by CBP testimony that said that people are staying on the clock 

just to fulfill those hours, just so that they can work a 10-hour day, 

but they are not doing any work. And those allegations, to date, 

have not been substantiated, that, basically, people are goofing off, 

that they are surfing the Internet during the extra 2 hours and not 

doing any law enforcement work. And that has been a concern. It 

has been one that we have not been able to pin down, but that is 

the secondary concern that is going on here. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. My next question is, what can the Department do to address the abuses but make sure that we are 

treating our Border Patrol Officers fairly, making sure we have the 

human resources we need, on the border? What can the Depart-
14 

ment do itself? What have they tried to do themselves to address 

these concerns? 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, I think previously that Paul mentioned that 

the Secretary’s memo of January 27, which suspended AUO in specific categories. Prior to that and since then, CBP, the Department, 

and others have undertaken a position-by-position review to try to 

discriminate which of the job categories, specifically in the Border 

Patrol in our instance, are still eligible, given the rubric for AUO, 

and which are not. And so that suspension went forward January 

28 for those discrete categories and the position-by-position review. 

Additional training has been authorized and deployed to the 

field. We need to put ourselves in a place, based on the subsequent 

memo of May 23 from the Deputy Secretary, put ourselves in a 

place to better document the actual use and the correct use of 

AUO, even in the field, where it is understood that the field is the 

biggest user of AUO, but there are other problems with the way 

we have been documenting the use of it. 

And in the other categories that are referenced in these allegations and the findings of the investigations, there has been this 

overall generalization of how AUO is used and authorized, and so 

we have gotten ourselves in a place where it was used in the training environment, it was used at the headquarter environment, 

which sometimes is unpredictable, but more often than not, and in 

the current interpretation, it is, in a sense, work that can be scheduled. And so we are getting smarter about how we teach ourselves 

that, and going forward, we will have better documentation about 

the work that is being done, whether it is irregular or otherwise. 

So, the work is still there in each of the environments, both in 

the field and at the administrative and training regiments, but we 

are going to use different types of compensation, and in either case, 

in both environments, we want to be able to document it more specifically. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. I have a number of other questions in a 

second round, and I will just telegraph some of those now. They include how would the legislation that Senators Tester and McCain 

crafted, how would it address these concerns? Why is it fair to folks 

who work in Border Patrol and to taxpayers? Are there any unintended consequences that flow from the legislation? 

Actually, we are told that this is legislation that would save any- where from $25 to $50 million a year—that is a lot of money—and, 

at the same time, effectively put another 1,000 to 1,200 Border Patrol Officers on the border. That is a pretty attractive combination. 

So, I want to find out just how that works. 

All right. Dr. Coburn. 

Senator COBURN. Thank you. 

Mr. Judd, would you say again what you said in your opening 

statement, when you were recruited, that you, in fact, were told 

that you would have guaranteed overtime. 

Mr. JUDD. Yes. There were—— 

Senator COBURN. And that was what year? 

Mr. JUDD. That was back in 1997. 

Senator COBURN. OK. 

Mr. JUDD. And, I do not remember what the specific announcement that was on the OPM website was, but there were—we do job 
15 

recruitments—we still do job recruitments where we send recruiters out to different college campuses and different areas and, yes, 

at that time, we were told we would earn 25 percent AUO. 

Senator COBURN. And, I understand, that is the expectation. 

Mr. JUDD. Yes. 

Senator COBURN. I am not critical of that, I am just wanting to 

get that in the record. 

Mr. JUDD. Certainly. 

Senator COBURN. Chief, you said that you need to reform the 

post-shift activities. What about jobs that do not have post-shift activities but receive AUO? 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, I think we are talking about where the suspensions are now, right, the headquarters and the training environment. It is the normal course of business at the academies and in 

headquarters that people regularly have assignments that carry 

them past the eighth hour of their shift. I will give you some specific examples. 

Over the weekend, I was on several conference calls dealing with 

the situation in which we were moving individual unprocessed illegal aliens from South Texas to points west, namely El Paso and 

specifically Tucson Sector. And so arranging for the flights, that 

was being coordinated in the interagency not just by me and my 

team, but arranging for the flights, arranging for the destination 

location so that it was sufficiently prepared, that it was sufficiently 

staffed by Border Patrol Agents and others in the interagency, and 

then giving the specific instructions to the Rio Grande Valley Sector to make sure that those people were—— 

Senator COBURN. I understand that. I am just saying, your testimony, then, is that all the departments, all the management, all 

the training facilities need extra time. Everybody that works for 

CBP in a management or training facility is going to have at least 

2 hours of overtime everyday. 

Mr. VITIELLO. I think they regularly exceed the shift that they 

are assigned for the specific purposes of preparing for the classroom work—again, this work that we did over the weekend, we 

were managing other incidents at the same time that required 

cross-sector coordination, and my team was—— 

Senator COBURN. Well, can you imagine, what about other areas 

of the Federal Government? What about the military? They are 

doing that stuff all the time, are they not? 

Mr. VITIELLO. They are. 

Senator COBURN. Yes. What about the FDA, if they are having 

a drug problem? They are doing it. To me, it is incomprehensible 

that somebody in a training facility needs to be working an extra 

2 hours a day to meet the requirements of that training facility. 

That either says we have poor management or we have not structured our force right. 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, it may require a different force structure, but 

what I am saying is that the Academy curriculum is an 8-hour day, 

so instructors need some time to prepare for the intake of those 

students—— 

Senator COBURN. How long have they been being instructors? 
16 

Mr. VITIELLO. It just depends. That is an individual specific data 

point and, we assign hundreds of people. When we were doing the 

surge, there were over a thousand instructors at the Academy. 

Senator COBURN. Yes. 

Mr. VITIELLO. And they stay for rotations of three to five, sometimes longer. The portability comment in my opening statement 

was about having people who have sufficiently spent time in the 

field and recognize the challenges that individual journeyman 

agents and supervisors struggle with on a day-to-day basis. It is 

very prudent and desirable and necessary for our business practice 

to develop those people. 

Those make your best instructors, people who are successful in 

that environment. They also make the best staff officers that I 

have at the headquarters because they recognize the challenges in 

the field so that when we send a question downrange, when we 

push a requirement downrange for cross-sector coordination, that 

the people who are sending and receiving the information have sufficient experience to know what it means. They can fill in the 

blanks. They can provide informed counsel with a requisite level of 

expertise. That is a desirable business model for us. 

Senator COBURN. OK. So, even the administrative assistants in 

the training facilities would need to have two extra hours, and even 

the janitors in the training facilities would need to—— 

Mr. VITIELLO. No, my experience is that—— 

Senator COBURN. My point is, is when you ask the American 

public about people in administrative offices getting guaranteed 

two extra hours a day, and all of them have jobs, and I am kind 

of wishing—I would rather go back to the Federal labor portion of 

this and either pay them or increase the number so that we adequately reflect it. I just find it a bit hard to swallow that everybody 

that works in management at the Border Patrol and everybody 

that works in the training facilities at Border Patrol have a need 

to have 20 percent more, or 25 percent more time added to get 

their job done, and that, to me, says we are not staffed correctly, 

one, or we are managed improperly. 

Mr. VITIELLO. Well, I think that the staffing at the Academy locations is adequate for the mission at hand. At headquarters, in my 

environment, the staff that I manage, we have a very light footprint about 200 officer corps people in my headquarters—— 

Senator COBURN. But, the point is, if you bring somebody in to 

train, they know how to train or you would not have brought them 

in to train. And, to sit here and make the point that they have to 

have two extra hours at the end of the day to prepare for tomorrow 

in terms of training when they are not consuming the whole 8 

hours during the training anyway just does not make sense. It does 

not pass the smell test, to me. And, again, I do not want any cut 

in pay. I want this stuff restored. 

My question is, is the assumptions under which we are doing all 

this do not pass muster for common sense. Now, your testimony is 

that everybody at the Border Patrol needs an extra 2 hours a day 

to get their job done, and that is whether they are on the border 

or they are not, and I am not sure, even with your statement, that 

you can justify it. 
17 

Mr. Miles, how many allegations of AUO abuse at CBP has your 

office received? 

Mr. MILES. Sixteen, at 16 different locations dating back to 2007. 

Senator COBURN. And, what percentage of those cases did the 

whistleblower allege not just that overtime was being mis-billed as 

AUO, but that overtime was actually not being worked by some 

agents, whether agents left early or they were doing non-work activities like watching TV or surfing the Internet or hanging out? 

Mr. MILES. Some variation of that disclosure was made in eight 

of those cases. 

Senator COBURN. OK. And, have you been satisfied with CBP’s 

reports concluding they cannot substantiate allegations that agents 

were billing hours they did not actually work? 

Mr. MILES. Umm, I may not give you a direct yes or no, but we 

have been very satisfied with the—— 

Senator COBURN. OK. I do not want to get that going. 

Mr. MILES. Yes. 

Senator COBURN. I will withdraw that question. 

Some of the allegations substantiated by CBP involve cases 

where CBP agents were working alongside CBP Officers or other 

civilians who are not entitled to overtime pay. You talked about 

that. 

Mr. MILES. Right. 

Senator COBURN. Did not the CBP Agents have the exact same 

job as those that were not CBP Agents? 

Mr. MILES. Yes, and that is why I think that the framework that 

OIA has put forth has been helpful for this conversation. 

Senator COBURN. OK. 

Mr. MILES. We can go into more detail about the training facility. 

For example, the Border Patrol Agents who testified they were in 

the instructor position said that they needed 10 hours a day in 

order to get the work done, and I am sorry for the acronym, Chairman Carper, but as a Customs and Border Protection Officer 

(CBPO), who is not eligible for AUO but is in the same instructor 

position, they routinely testified that they can get the work done 

within 8 hours—— 

Senator COBURN. That is my point. 

Mr. MILES [continuing]. And they—— 

Senator COBURN. That is my point. To your knowledge, has management ever tried to stop agents who perform these job responsibilities from working past 8 hours a day? 

Mr. MILES. I am not aware of any. 

Senator COBURN. OK. Mr. Hamrick, describe for me your investigation of the OSC referrals in terms of those people who were not 

working. How did you go about the investigation to substantiate or 

to not substantiate those claims? 

Mr. HAMRICK. The Office of Internal Affairs conducted six separate investigations regarding allegations of AUO misuse by CBP 

employees. In each of those investigations, our Internal Affairs 

Agents collected all the relevant documentary evidence that was 

available. We conducted interviews with all the relevant employees, 

interviewed complainants where the complainants were identified, 

interviewed all available witnesses as well as employees who were 

alleged to be misusing the AUO compensation system, documented 
18 

those investigated steps, in at least one case, conducted surveillance out in the field, documented—— 

Senator COBURN. Describe that. 

Mr. HAMRICK. Our agents actually were in the field watching employees at a—— 

Senator COBURN. Were the employees aware? 

Mr. HAMRICK. No. Covert surveillance, sir. Watching the employees to see what time they reported to work, what time they left 

work, and then comparing those activities with the hours that were 

documented. 

Senator COBURN. OK. 

Mr. HAMRICK. Once our investigations were complete, all the investigative activities were fully documented. The investigative reports went through a series of management reviews within the Office of Internal Affairs, both at the field office level as well as at 

headquarters. Once our Internal Affairs managers were satisfied 

that the investigations were adequate and complete, the investigative reports were subject to a second level of review at the Office 

of Chief Counsel at CBP. Once that level of review was complete, 

the reports were forwarded through the leadership to the Office of 

Special Counsel. 

Senator COBURN. But, the employees, in general, were aware 

that AUO was a hot topic. 

Mr. HAMRICK. Sir—— 

Senator COBURN. This had been in the press. 

Mr. HAMRICK. Yes, sir. 

Senator COBURN. Yes. So, basically, observing agents at work, 

you determined that everything else that the whistleblower said, 

other than eligibility, was not accurate—— 

Mr. HAMRICK. In—— 

Senator COBURN [continuing]. In most instances. 

Mr. HAMRICK. In each of the six investigations that we conducted 

regarding allegations of AUO misuse, what we confirmed was that 

the hours claimed were being worked. We also confirmed that those 

hours that were worked were not properly compensated under the 

AUO provisions and that another overtime compensation mechanism should have been used. 

Senator COBURN. OK. I am way over time. Senator Tester, sorry. 

Chairman CARPER. Jon, you are on. 

Senator TESTER. That is perfectly all right. 

I will just start out a little bit talking about the benefits of the 

bill and then we will get into some meat here in a second. I think 

all of us can agree this is an antiquated pay system, set up 40 

years ago, that does not meet the needs today. I think the Border 

Patrol has come to us asking for some reforms. I think it is appropriate that we listen to their work that they are doing in the field. 

I went through border stations several times, but I have to tell you, 

I have never packed a gun on the Northern Border and faced what 

you guys face, putting your lives on the line everyday. 

But, yet, coming to us in support of a pay cut—and we will get 

into that in a second—I would just say that one thing that this bill 

does—and it does many things—is it gives stability to the hours 

that they need, and I think that stability in hours is very impor-
19 

tant. When you have folks up there, the last thing they need to be 

thinking about is when the shift goes off. 

But, at any rate, I would ask you, Deputy Chief Vitiello, is the 

CBP supportive of this legislation? 

Mr. VITIELLO. Yes, sir. 

Senator TESTER. How about you, Mr. Judd? Is your organization 

supportive? 

Mr. JUDD. Yes, sir. 

Senator TESTER. For both Mr. Judd and Mr. Vitiello, do you believe this legislation increases the Border Patrol’s operational capacity and its effectiveness? 

Mr. VITIELLO. It will. 

Mr. JUDD. I do not believe it will, I know it will. 

Senator TESTER. OK. Will it help or hurt recruitment and retention of Border Patrol Agents? 

Mr. VITIELLO. I think it will help. 

Mr. JUDD. It will help. 

Senator TESTER. Does it provide more certainty for the agents 

and their families, both of you? 

Mr. VITIELLO. Agree, it does. 

Mr. JUDD. Absolutely. 

Senator TESTER. And, we are probably going to get into cost savings in a minute, but does your group and your agency believe that 

this saves money? 

Mr. VITIELLO. It does. The key provision of eliminating FLSA for 

overtime work, as the workforce is now entitled, would save us considerably. 

Senator TESTER. OK. I want to talk about training for just a little bit. Mr. Vitiello, who do you use for training? 

Mr. VITIELLO. There are a variety of assignments at the Academy, but some of the instructors are, in fact, Border Patrol Agents 

that teach operational aspects of the work in the Academy setting. 

Senator TESTER. OK. And, you said these are 8-hour sessions? 

Mr. VITIELLO. The curriculum is 8 hours, plus lunch, et cetera. 

Senator TESTER. OK. One thing that I would really like to point 

out is that if I am on a Northern Border and somebody asks me 

to become a trainer—and, by the way, I applaud the fact that you 

guys are using Border Patrol Agents to train with—there is no way 

I am going to take a reduction in pay to come here. And, I think 

furthermore, if, in fact, you are using agents, that solves a problem 

that I have with a lot of the agencies around here that actually 

have people in training positions that do not know what is going 

on out in the field. You are using folks that know what is going 

on in the field to train the folks that are going to be out in the 

field, that is correct? 

Mr. VITIELLO. Correct. We use lawyers to teach the law. We use 

physical training (PT) instructors to teach physical techniques. We 

use Border Patrol Agents who have driven in the field and know 

how to operate our vehicles and systems, et cetera. And then the 

whole range of operational techniques are taught by agents, as 

well. 

Senator TESTER. OK. 

Mr. JUDD. Senator, may I—— 

Senator TESTER. Yes. Sure. 
20 

Mr. JUDD. I taught at the Academy. I would have never went to 

the Academy if I was going to lose 25 percent of my pay. It would 

not have happened. 

Senator TESTER. OK. We are currently, in this day and age, 

using—I hate to even bring this up—but unmanned aircraft and 

drones to secure our borders, and we have been successful using 

technology to fight against terrorism. The question is, with this age 

of technology, why do we need more agents? Go ahead. 

Mr. JUDD. Senator, the technology is fantastic, but the technology does not arrest anybody. When I am dealing with groups of 

illegal aliens or drug smugglers, I am dealing with anywhere between 20 to 40 persons and those drones cannot put hands on those 

individuals to arrest them. Normally, when I am dealing with these 

groups, it is me and one other person. And so the drones do a phenomenal job of spotting the groups, but now I have to get to the 

groups and I have to actually arrest them. Those drones cannot do 

that. That is why we have to have the manpower to effectuate the 

arrests. 

Senator TESTER. OK. Mr. Miles, I believe in your testimony you 

said that the research bore out that five 10-hour shifts—correct me 

if I am wrong—five 10-hour shifts is optimal? 

Mr. MILES. We received a report back, and again, a very helpful 

report from OIA discussing the San Diego Sector, and managers 

there—I am sorry, Laredo North Station, Laredo, Texas. 

In Laredo, the managers insist, and they provide—they do an extensive discussion on the costs and benefits of doing a 10-hour shift 

versus an 8-hour shift. 

Senator TESTER. Right. 

Mr. MILES. And, I think that is a legitimate area for Congress 

to consider. What the report confirms is that that 10-hour shift is 

currently being compensated with AUO, and that is not lawful, and 

so—— 

Senator TESTER. Yes, I have that. 

Mr. MILES [continuing]. We need to figure out if 10 hours really 

is the best way in that particular—— 

Senator TESTER. And the reason it is not lawful is because when 

AUO was set up, it was set up for conditions that were unpredictable, correct? 

Mr. MILES. Correct. 

Senator TESTER. If it would have been set up and said, we are 

going to make it predictable. You use the AUO whenever you want 

and do whatever, it would have been fine. But, the fact is, unpredictability. 

Mr. MILES. Right, and that is why, I think, we wanted to flag 

that, because it really is worth understanding from the CBP witnesses why 10 hours is the most cost-effective approach to securing 

the border. 

Senator TESTER. OK. Mr. Judd, when discussing pay reform, and 

we are discussing this bill, we are talking about how much money 

it is going to save, why would your folks be in favor of it? 

Mr. JUDD. Because the alternative is worse. What we have found 

is, again, Mr. Miles has testified that what we are doing is not actual AUO. Mr. Hamrick has testified that the hours are being 

worked, but it is being improperly compensated. 
21 

Senator TESTER. Yes. 

Mr. JUDD. If it was properly compensated, you would actually be 

paying me more money than what AUO pays. I would love to keep 

AUO. In fact, if I could convince you to amend the AUO laws so 

that I can keep AUO and FLSA, I would do that. But, unfortunately, we have this budgetary constraint where nobody is willing 

to consider a time-and-a-half overtime system, and, therefore, we 

are asking you for this. 

Senator TESTER. Fine. We are going to have several rounds, 

right, so my time is up. 

Chairman CARPER. I was about halfway through my questioning 

when I yielded to Dr. Coburn. I want to just come back and pick 

up where I left off. 

The next question I want to come back, and we have talked 

about this a little bit, but I want to talk about it some more, and 

the question I would ask—let me just start with you, Mr. Miles, 

and come from my right to my left—what concerns have been 

raised about—well, let us just go back. What concerns were raised 

about the original policy that has been in place for a number of 

years? What concerns have been raised? And how does this legislation address those concerns? 

Mr. MILES. Yes. So, I think, three separate concerns. One, that 

AUO is unlawful, because it is being used routinely instead of for 

unpredictable work. Two, a lot of the whistleblowers were concerned that AUO was being used in an office setting or in an administrative setting and by managers in those types of settings. 

And, three, which we have discussed in some detail, that AUO is 

being claimed for hours that are not worked at all or while people 

are doing various things. 

So, the legislation would clearly address the first issue, on 

whether or not the hours that are being worked that can be scheduled in advance, it would provide a legal framework for compensating the individuals who are working those hours. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Mr. Hamrick, same question, 

please. 

Mr. HAMRICK. I would echo Mr. Miles. The legislation will allow 

CBP to properly compensate employees for their overtime work, 

which they are entitled to, while alleviating the issues that we are 

currently experiencing with the limitations on AUO and what type 

of overtime hours can be worked under AUO and how those can be 

paid. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Mr. Judd. 

Mr. JUDD. Simply, this would make what we do legal. I do not 

know how better to state it. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Mr. Vitiello. 

Mr. VITIELLO. I agree. There are specific mission requirements 

that, in the system like what is contemplated in the legislation, 

would allow for us to do. And then, if we—and avoid some of the 

transactions that occur if you were on a fee-for-service issue. You 

would change what the expectations are of both managers and individual agents and they would always be watching the clock versus 

what we can accomplish now, which is to continue the work until 

the end of the shift. 
22 

Chairman CARPER. OK. I am just going to lay out an example. 

Let us just say, instead of Senator Coburn and myself and Senator 

Tester being Senators, let us just say we are Border Patrol Officers, 

and we will say that Dr. Coburn is over in California along the border there. Maybe I am in the Tucson Sector, and Senator Tester 

is in South Texas. 

There is not much going on along the California border, and after 

8 hours, Senator Coburn is done. I am on a part of the border 

where there is a lot going on and I have maybe 20 people that I 

am tracking across the border and trying to catch up with them, 

and I am working well beyond my shift and maybe work an extra 

4 hours just to try to track them down and hold them until somebody can come and relieve me. And Senator Tester is actually going 

the other way, down into—maybe across the border and trying to 

apprehend somebody who slipped back across the border and he 

uses up an extra 2 or 3 hours. 

I think most people who are familiar with overtime issues know 

that people working in similar kinds of jobs do not always have to 

work as long every day. So, common sense—my dad always used 

to say, just use some common sense. I think somebody using some 

common sense here would say, well, somebody is working—Officer 

Coburn over here is working an extra 4 hours to track down and 

hold 20 people, or I am and he is not, whatever, why do we not 

just pay people along those lines? I think I know the answer, but 

I would like to hear you say it anyway. 

Mr. JUDD. If you would, I would like to take that question. 

Chairman CARPER. Please. In fact, I want each of you to. 

Mr. JUDD. OK. If you were a Border Patrol Agent, you would love 

your job. You may not like where you live, but you love your job. 

What we have seen, again, since we have cut the number of hours, 

we have seen that these criminal cartels are exploiting the holes 

that we have created. 

Just because you are in a patrol function and you might not be 

arresting somebody does not mean that you are not performing an 

essential job. What you are doing is you are actually deterring the 

entrance of illegal aliens. So, if you are out there and you are patrolling the border, just because you are not putting hands on 

somebody who is committing crime, you are letting them know that 

your presence is there and that you are ready to put hands on 

them, if need be. And when I say, ‘‘put hands on them,’’ I am talking in a legal and lawful way. But, we are ready and we are prepared to deal with the threat that will present itself if we are 

there. 

Chairman CARPER. Let me hear from others, please. 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, in the simple example in San Diego, before you 

were done with the assignment at the line, even if there is not anything specifically spectacular going on, we want someone to relieve 

you, and so there needs to be a compensation mechanism that allows for that relief and so that I can use a three-shift model to expand the deployment versus some kind of four-or five-shift model 

where there is an overlap before the end of your shift for relief. So, 

AUO is not suited, and we have been called on that administratively and in the legal framework, for using it as relief, and so you 

cannot. So, AUO is not specifically for that. 
23 

In the tracking example in Laredo or elsewhere, that is pretty 

straightforward. That is what AUO was designed to do. But, in the 

AUO construct, when you have 85.5 hours, when you hit the 85.5- 

hour threshold, we are going to pay you more for those extra hours 

beyond 85.5. That is what FLSA compensation and the law allows 

for. So, it would be more expensive at that point going forward, and 

the same is true for RGV. There are additional hours. It is not just 

the 25 percent. It gets you up to 25 percent, and once you get beyond that 85.5 hours, then you are getting closer to a time-and-ahalf model versus what is contemplated in the legislation, which is 

straight pay for the first 10 hours. 

Chairman CARPER. Mr. Miles, Mr. Hamrick, can you add or take 

away to this, please. 

Mr. MILES. So, I think the only thing that we would want to add 

to the conversation is a fourth and a fifth example. It is the instructor at the training facility and the paralegal in San Diego. 

And, I think Mr. Judd makes really good arguments, that from a 

recruitment and retention standpoint, maybe you cannot get a Border Patrol Agent to go to Glynco, Georgia, if he is not going to get 

a promised ninth and tenth hour. 

But, that is really a cost-benefit analysis that we do not feel comfortable making, but just wanted to flag that issue and put it out 

there as far as whether, in all three of your examples plus the additional two administrative or office settings or training settings, 

whether that is something that should be institutionalized. 

Chairman CARPER. Could we not just say, if you want to have 

somebody who is really experienced out in the field, he would make 

a good instructor, in order to induce him or her to come and be an 

instructor, pay them a stipend. Pay something extra. What is 

wrong with that? 

Mr. VITIELLO. I think that would work in a general sense. We are 

just not equipped—the tools do not exist for us to do that now. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Before I yield to Dr. Coburn, just very 

briefly, unintended consequences. Any unintended consequences 

that would flow from the legislation that Senators Tester and 

McCain have worked on, please? Mr. Judd. 

Mr. JUDD. We have looked at this every way imaginable. This is 

a 4-year process that we are seeing and I think that we have attacked this the best that we possibly can and I just do not see any 

unintended consequences. 

Chairman CARPER. Others, please. 

Mr. VITIELLO. I would just say that we have learned from the 

mistakes and the problems with AUO. This legislation borrows 

from existing structures. The rest of Federal law enforcement, both 

in the Academy and in the headquarters setting, use the Law Enforcement Availability Pay (LEAP) model, which is 25 percent compensation for those formats. So, we have looked at that. It resonates a bit in this, but this is, I think, a better scenario for CBP 

and the Border Patrol because it contemplates not being available 

as in some of the other statutes but actually being assigned. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Mr. Hamrick or Mr. Miles, please, and 

then I will yield. 

Mr. HAMRICK. I have nothing to add, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Mr. Miles. 
24 

Mr. MILES. And, we have tried to flag the issues that we think 

are worth all of you considering as you debate and discuss this bill, 

so do not want to go into those again. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. When I come back, I would like to talk 

about—Dr. Coburn may have already raised this issue—but the 

issue of the calculation of pensions and how it works now and how 

it would change under this legislation. Dr. Coburn. 

Senator COBURN. Chief Vitiello, would you support capping the 

number of agents getting 100 hours at 90 percent until an audit 

is done that would say you need to go above that? 

Mr. VITIELLO. What is contemplated in the legislation is for Border Patrol to have a baseline requirement in every location, at least 

90 percent of the core workforce to be at the level one, which is 

maximum capability. 

Senator COBURN. Yes. 

Mr. VITIELLO. We think that is important for stability and projection of cost. 

Senator COBURN. You mentioned availability pay by the Federal 

Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Secret Service, and some of these 

other law enforcement agencies, but are they not required to be 

available on a 24-hour basis to get that availability pay? 

Mr. VITIELLO. They are required, but the difference between that 

statute and my understanding of it, because I do not administer it, 

and what is contemplated here is this compels a 10-hour day. 

LEAP does not. 

Senator COBURN. OK. I just wanted to put something in the 

record. In 2013, we had 21,391 Border Patrol agents. In 2005, we 

had 11,264. Arrests were 1,189,000 in 2005. They were 420,789 in 

2013. Technology has helped us a great deal, but we have doubled 

the Border Patrol and yet our arrests are down. Part of that is because we do not have the ingress, I would think you would agree. 

It had decreased for a period of time due to the economic condition 

that we went under. 

The other thing I want to enter into the record is the National 

Journeyman Border Patrol gross earnings and agency cost. This is 

a comparison of AUO versus Federal Employee Pay Act (FEPA) 

FLSA and the bill as put forward, and it does document some savings that will be there. 

And, I will come back again to you, Chief. Until we can know just 

from a common sense standpoint who really needs overtime within 

your organization—I agree that the 90 percent number is a good 

number, Jon. I do not have any problem. I have a problem getting 

above that in some of these other areas where it would not seem 

fair to people that work in other areas of the Federal Government 

that we are going to compensate people who are not doing things 

that require extra time, that they get paid for that. So, in your 

written answers to our Committee, you said that you would support that. I am trying to get you to answer that question now. 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, I think it is appropriate, given your description 

of the growth over the last several years, that the Border Patrol, 

CBP, and the Department take time now to refine how we use the 

hours that are available. I prefer maximum capability in every location, and we are building a system by which we can show you 
25 

1The papers submitted by Senator Coburn appears in the Appendix on page 56. 

and others how many hours are spent at each location, and not 

only that, but in discrete categories of work. 

And so I think that is important, and we are happy to be a part 

of a demonstration to this body and others that says, here are 

where all the 21,000 agents are, here is where they spent all the 

time, hour by hour. That is a refinement that we are pursuing. We 

think it is important. Given the growth that we have had, the increase in capability, we agree that the environment has changed. 

But, it is still a dynamic place, and over time, we would like to be 

in a position to account for hours worked and attribute them to the 

work being done. I think it would be easy for us to substantiate the 

maximum capability. 

Senator COBURN. So, does that tie in with the study that you all 

are doing now in terms of the AUO and everything, in terms of— 

you are trying to get a better management handle by metrics and 

by location and by area. Does that tie in with what the Secretary 

has asked in terms of an AUO evaluation and the study that you 

all are doing now? 

Mr. VITIELLO. They are independent in the sense that one was 

started with in mind to reform the situation that we are in, and 

to the extent that we can improve the AUO condition, we are going 

to do that. The management requirements determination process 

will support our effort to refine and demonstrate to you the capabilities that are being used and how they are being used, but it will 

also inform the Secretary’s work and the task that he has given us 

to reform this issue going forward. We will be able to quantify and 

justify the hours as they are being used. 

Senator COBURN. OK. All right. I just have a couple other pieces 

of paper I would like to put into the record for comparison.1

Chairman CARPER. Without objection. 

Senator COBURN. And, I have no other questions. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Senator Tester. 

Senator TESTER. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

A couple questions for Mr. Miles real quick. We have two Special 

Counsel reports that outline the abuse and misuses of AUO. Your 

office has published two reports on the issue, one in 2008 and, I 

think, one in October of this last year. Do you think DHS has provided adequate redress during the 5-years the agency has known 

about the problem? 

Mr. MILES. I think our October letter outlined a lot of concerns 

with the pace that DHS was making reforms and, for example, in 

2007 and 2008, DHS committed to issuing a Department-wide directive to address the AUO issue, and in then in the 2013 communication, we noted that the directive was still lacking. However, 

since you held your hearing on AUO—— 

Senator TESTER. Yes. 

Mr. MILES [continuing]. They have taken a lot of productive steps 

and a lot of those are making a difference. 

Senator TESTER. I want to talk a little bit about a suggestion 

that Senator Coburn brought up in his opening remarks, and you 

guys can add to it. He talked about just changing the base pay, not 

doing all this, what we are doing in this bill, but just changing the 
26 

base pay, and my take on that is that we do need to address the 

extra hours needed on the border that that would not address. And 

we do need to address the overtime issue that that would not address. And, we need to provide some stability in the schedule because the previous two, that would not address. Would either Mr. 

Judd or Mr. Vitiello want to add to that at all. 

Mr. JUDD. In essence, we are, in fact, changing the base pay. The 

overtime hours, although it is beyond 8 hours, it is still being paid 

at straight time, so, in essence, you are just changing the base pay. 

What you are doing is you are putting a guarantee in there that 

this is what we are going to make, which is what we do not currently have. So, you are changing the base pay. This will become 

part of the base package. 

Senator TESTER. Mr. Vitiello. 

Mr. VITIELLO. The current system supports a regular work— 

what is contemplated in the legislation better supports irregular 

work, but it also gives us management controls that Border Patrol 

leadership does not have now in the self-deployable overtime and 

it gives us greater accountability with regard to where people are 

in relation to their base pay and then the extra hours that they are 

putting in each day. 

Senator TESTER. Mr. Hamrick, do you believe, and I do not want 

to put words in your mouth, but do you think part of the problem 

with AUO is just bad management? 

Mr. HAMRICK. No, Senator Tester, I believe that the biggest issue 

is the challenge in identifying what overtime hours are legally compensated through AUO and what overtime hours are not. I once 

was an AUO earner myself, many years ago, before the LEAP law 

came into effect, and in nearly 28 years in Federal law enforcement, I have learned more about LEAP, or AUO, in the last 12 

months than I ever knew as an AUO earner. So, it is a complicated 

pay system that is difficult to navigate. 

Senator TESTER. Would you agree this would simplify that pay 

system? 

Mr. HAMRICK. Yes, sir. 

Senator TESTER. Make it easier to audit? 

Mr. HAMRICK. Yes, sir. 

Senator TESTER. I want to talk about retention and recruitment 

for just a second. I should have brought a picture of my farm in 

here. I live about 75, 80 miles south of the Northern Border. What 

impact do you think—you already said that this would help with 

retention and recruitment, Mr. Judd, and Senator Coburn has always said he does not want to reduce pay, and I believe both of 

you, OK. The question becomes, if we—I am very concerned about 

retention and recruitment, and kind of, Mr. Judd, could you give 

me your take on how this will be accepted versus completely 

redoing the system and not giving the kind of predictability that 

I think this bill does. 

Mr. JUDD. Senator, it is very simple. Back in 1997, when I pursued a career with the Border Patrol, I was in the process of two 

other local law enforcement agencies. These local law enforcement 

agencies were in very desirable locations in which to live. The only 

reason that I took the Border Patrol job was because with the 

AUO, it was more money. 
27 

Senator TESTER. OK. 

Mr. JUDD. I moved to a very, well, frankly, a less desirable location to live, but I did that because I was making more money, and 

over the long term and with retirement, it would have been better 

for me. If you get rid of this 25 percent, you will not be able to recruit quality individuals to do this job. 

Senator TESTER. OK. I appreciate that. I would just like to make 

one real quick statement. It deals with making the floor the cap 

that Senator Coburn had talked about. And, I would just say, we 

really depend on Customs and Border Protection and the folks that 

are out in the field to determine what their needs are the same 

way we depend upon the military to tell us what their needs are 

and we act. We are hearing from the agency and we are hearing 

from the folks that are working on the ground that 90 percent is 

a reasonable floor. 

And, I think it would be dangerous to use it as a cap, because 

these are the guys that are out there. They know the impacts that 

are happening every day. They know the kind of intrusions on that 

border that, quite frankly, I do not hear about and most of the folks 

that live closer to the border than I do not hear about. 

I do not speak for Senator McCain, and it is too bad he is not 

here. If there wanted to be an audit done and that audit showed 

that that 90 percent floor was too high or not high enough, that 

might be a way to go. But, I think, to put it as a ceiling would be 

dangerous. 

Senator COBURN. That is fine with me. 

Senator TESTER. OK. I yield. 

Senator COBURN. I just have a couple other questions for Mr. 

Hamrick. OSC has referred 10 cases of AUO abuse to CBP, and six 

of those are under your office. That is my understanding. Is that 

right? 

Mr. HAMRICK. My office has conducted six investigations that 

were referred to us by the OSC—— 

Senator COBURN. There were 10 total referrals, right? 

Mr. HAMRICK. I—— 

Senator COBURN. Yes, that is the number. 

Mr. HAMRICK. OK. 

Senator COBURN. So, where are the other four cases, and who is 

investigating those? 

Mr. HAMRICK. Because there was an allegation of AUO misuse 

against the Office of Internal Affairs, our agents are no longer—— 

Senator COBURN. Got you. 

Mr. HAMRICK [continuing]. Conducting those investigations. They 

have been referred to the IG—— 

Senator COBURN. That is fine. I understand that. Thank you. 

Chairman CARPER. I want us to go back in time a couple of 

years, I think, to 2012. I know the problem with Administratively 

Uncontrollable Overtime is not a new one. In fact, I think the 

President, I want to say it was in his fiscal year 2012 budget request included a legislative proposal that attempted to address this 

problem by putting Border Patrol into a system, as you know, 

known as the Law Enforcement Availability Pay. And, as I understand it, the Law Enforcement Availability Pay proposal generally 

applies to criminal investigators such as the FBI, such as the Drug 
28 

Enforcement Agency (DEA) or Secret Service Agents, gives them a 

25 percent increase in their base salary based on the expectation 

that they will be available to work as needed. And, that was a proposal in 2012. Congress failed to act. 

Let me just ask, if I could, Mr. Vitiello, and then Mr. Judd, could 

you explain to us what happened in 2012 with this legislative proposal, and if you would, please explain why you believe the TesterMcCain bill is an improvement over the 2012 legislative proposal 

to put Border Patrol on LEAP along with DEA, the FBI, and the 

Secret Service. Mr. Vitiello. 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, the agency and through the request advocated 

for conversion to LEAP in the sense that it did offer the same kind 

of savings that are contemplated here. But, there were several 

stakeholders that were opposed to the way LEAP is used, and for 

our work on—— 

Chairman CARPER. Who might those stakeholders be? 

Mr. VITIELLO. The National Border Patrol Council, among others, 

seated to my left. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. [Laughter.] 

And, what were their reservations? 

Mr. VITIELLO. Well, like what is contemplated here, FLSA was 

not going to be remuneration going forward, and they were concerned, and I will let Brandon speak for himself, but the concerns 

we heard from them was that there was not a threshold to which 

to manage against or to. And, they were concerned that management could abuse that. 

What is contemplated in the legislation are thresholds and unilateral ability for management right to assign folks to keep them 

below or near or at the threshold. And so what is here is much improved from that experience. This borrows a lot from LEAP in the 

sense that it solidifies the macro budget picture. It allows us to 

forecast going forward without using FLSA as an unpredictable 

cost in the future. 

Chairman CARPER. Mr. Judd, do you agree? Did you approve this 

message? [Laughter.] 

Mr. JUDD. I absolutely agree that it was the National Border Patrol Council that was adamantly opposed to LEAP. The simple reason that we are opposed to LEAP is because this whole notion that 

all you have to do is be available to be paid, somebody needs to go 

back and read the law and I think that you need to start investigating some other agencies. 

In fact, the law specifically states that you must maintain a certain number of hours that you have to be scheduled. The problem 

with LEAP is you can schedule me for 10 hours, but if I work over 

10 hours for that day, it is free. And there is no mechanism to force 

them to let me go after 10 hours. 

So, in other words, in a real world sense, if I am in a certain area 

on the border and the relief that is going to relieve me for today 

calls in sick, the agency could call me up and say, hey, your relief 

just called in sick. We did not schedule this to happen. We need 

you to work a double shift. And, by the way, that double shift is 

now going to be free. 

So, we needed a mechanism to ensure that the agency was not 

going to work us beyond 10 hours per day and work us for free, 
29 

and that is what this legislation does. This gives us what we call 

back-end protections to ensure that we get compensated for the 

work that we do. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Thanks. I have another question. In fact, 

I have a couple more. Let me just use my time and then I will yield 

back to you, Senator Tester, if you would like to take more time. 

I have a question on operational tempo, the number of shifts 

worked per day, if I could, and I think I will probably address these 

couple questions to you in this regard, to you, Mr. Vitiello. But, I 

understand that one of the most widespread misuses of Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime at the Border Patrol has been to 

pay for the extra time it takes employees to transition from one 

shift to another, and this has allowed the Border Patrol to use 

three, I am told, three 10-hour shifts at many locations rather than 

four 8-hour shifts. In fact, the Office of Special Counsel noted in 

its written testimony that Border Patrol, and this is a quote, I 

think, ‘‘managers insist that employing three 10-hour shifts is a 

more cost-effective approach to securing the border, even if Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime may not properly be used for 

routine activities.’’ That is a quote. 

A couple of questions, if I could. Mr. Vitiello, I would like to ask 

you to explain why the Border Patrol believes that using three 

shifts instead of four is a more cost effective approach to securing 

the border. 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, I agree with the managers in San Diego who 

pointed that out in those interviews. In an ideal setting, 24-by-7, 

7-day-a-week workload along the border, you would have to transition between shifts, however it is better to have three shifts with 

the overhead, the managers, and the supervisors, versus four or 

five shifts to predict and then schedule that overlap. It is better to 

have a three-shift model, with time for one shift to transfer information to each other before one starts and the previous shift is relieved. Under the current system, AUO does not allow for relief to 

be paid for using AUO. 

So, whatever system we went going forward, it is always better 

to have three shifts instead of four. You have better capability that 

way. But, you would still need to figure out how to transfer that 

knowledge, and that requires time. 

Chairman CARPER. Let me just followup on this. You addressed 

this, at least in part, but I am going to ask it anyway. What would 

be the impact on your operations and your ability to secure the border if you were forced to move to four shifts across the board as 

a result of not being able to use Administratively Uncontrollable 

Overtime to pay for shift changes? 

Mr. VITIELLO. You would just need more agents to do the same 

amount of work. We would prefer, and it is most advantageous to 

the organization as it relates to predicting costs and the future stability that you have three shifts instead of four. It is more cost effective. You would have to hire more agents to get the same level 

of deployment across the 24-hour period. 

Chairman CARPER. And, finally, Mr. Vitiello, how will the TesterMcCain bill we are considering today impact your ability to schedule fewer shifts and, thus, deploy additional agents to the border 

each day? 
30 

Mr. VITIELLO. What is contemplated here is that it would allow 

for using this model to compensate people for that relief. There are 

also lots of missions that occur after the shift is over—transferring 

information, landmarking apprehensions, developing trends to inform the next day’s deployment, the next shift’s deployment, the 

trends that are happening in real time. We want agents to record 

and transfer that at the end of their shift so that the next shift is 

more capable, and so that as they deploy the next day, they are 

smarter about where they place their assets and how supervisors 

move people from one side of a deployment area to another. So, you 

need to have that transfer of knowledge. You need that overlap, not 

only for the physical presence, but for the information and the 

rapid response that is required based on the information that they 

develop while in their shift. 

Chairman CARPER. Thanks very much. Senator Tester. 

Senator TESTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to thank each one of the witnesses today for your testimony and for your straightforward answers. 

I would just like to say, it is seldom in the U.S. Senate that we 

get a bill that makes a situation simpler, that the agencies want, 

that the people that are employed by the agencies want, that saves 

money, that increases efficiency, that increases predictability, and 

we do not throw it out of here as quick as we can. 

We have a problem. I think all four of the witnesses have pointed 

out what the problem is. And, I think that if the Senate does what 

it does so very well, and that is talk it to death and delay it to 

death, we will not get this problem solved. And the ultimate thing 

that will happen if we do not get this problem solved is our borders 

will be less secure and we will be looking around, pointing our fingers at you guys, saying, why did you not do this or why did you 

not do that, when, in fact, it is our obligation to make sure you 

have the tools to be able to do your job to protect the border in a 

way that you know how it needs to be protected. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would say that we are in the first 

or second week in June. If we do not get this bill out of Committee 

and if things go upside down on our border, we can reconvene this 

Committee of Homeland Security and talk about how we have 

screwed up. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I will ask you, when will there be a 

markup on this bill? 

Chairman CARPER. I am going to confer with Dr. Coburn. We will 

let you know later this week. 

Senator TESTER. Later this week, we ought to have a markup on 

this bill, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CARPER. I will confer with Dr. Coburn. We will let you 

know later this week, and we will invite you to be part of that conversation, along with Senator McCain. 

Senator TESTER. Well, just let me make it very clear. This is not 

something we should screw around with. We have people out here 

that were probably watching this on C–SPAN right now wanting 

to know what we are going to do. We have folks who work for CBP 

that like their job, are proud of their job, and that if we do not set 

some certainty down for these folks, they are going to go to work 

somewhere else. We need to fix it so it can be audited, so that we 
31 

know what we are doing, and so that these folks have some predictability. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. 

Senator TESTER. Now, we can put it off until the end of the 

month, but keep in mind, the longer we put this off, we have to 

get it off the Senate floor, we have to see if the House can get it 

done, and then we need to get it implemented, and time is a waiting. We have 11 weeks left. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Well, I think, Senator Tester, I think you 

know that there has been a lot of discussion about whether or 

not—if this bill saves as much money as we are told it might, that 

it might be available to serve as an offset to strengthen our cyber 

capabilities—— 

Senator TESTER. I appreciate that. 

Chairman CARPER [continuing]. Within the Department of Homeland Security. So, believe me, I understand the need for moving it 

along. 

Senator TESTER. Mr. Chairman, I would tell you, if this bill does 

not save one thin dime, if it is revenue neutral, we ought to do it. 

Chairman CARPER. Fair enough. I hope it saves more than a few 

thin dimes. And I thank you very much for all the work that you 

and your staff and that of Senator McCain have done. I wish he 

could be here. I understand he could not, but we will put our heads 

together and talk this week, and if we can do it early this week, 

we will do it early this week. 

Senator TESTER. I am free tomorrow afternoon, just so you know. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Well, that is good. [Laughter.] 

I am getting your drift. All right. This might be my last question. 

It deals with the surge that we have seen in unauthorized migration from Central America, particularly the record numbers of unaccompanied minors that are coming, and the effect they are having on the Border Patrol’s ability to carry out other parts of its mission. Specifically, I think you noted that the surge we are seeing 

is, and I think this is a quote, ‘‘compromising DHS’s capabilities to 

address other trans-border criminal activity, such as human smuggling and trafficking, and illicit drugs, weapons, and commercial 

and financial operations.’’ 

Mr. Vitiello, I am going to ask you to please expand on this, if 

you would. What exactly has the impact of this current surge in 

unauthorized migration been on the Border Patrol’s capacity to 

carry out its mission? Let us start with that, and then I will ask 

a second question. 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, as it relates to the conditions specifically in the 

Rio Grande Valley, we are faced in a situation where the facilities 

that are available for the eight stations that are in the Valley are 

insufficiently large enough to accommodate the number of people 

who we find ourselves arresting. And so given the timeframe that 

we need to book people in and to treat juveniles via the statute, 

to turn them over to HHS before the 72-hour clock runs out, we 

were insufficiently prepared to do that given the space that is 

available there. 

That is why the Secretary immediately designated it as a level 

four event, made myself the coordinator for the DHS response and 

the liaison with the interagency, and then the President since has 
32 

designated as a humanitarian event and put Administrator Fugate 

into the Federal coordination role to drive more resources as we 

started to the Valley to do what the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) calls wrap-around services for our facilities 

in the Valley, and then to make the system work more efficiently, 

to have more placement for these children. And what it means to 

the operations down there is that we were using enforcement resources in order to do this care and to make these facilities as safe 

and as useful as possible and to provide the right setting for the 

people who were in custody. 

That help is downrange considerably. It has changed considerably since the end of May and early June, and since the President’s 

designation of Administrator Fugate to coordinate the interagency, 

it has gotten much better. We were concerned—the text that you 

speak of is a draft that my staff had prepared for me. We had not 

sent it to the Interagency Coordinating Group (ICG), but it was a 

concern that has been existing in the Valley for a while and we 

have moved forward to improve those conditions since the time of 

that writing. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Let me followup with this. I understand that due to budgetary constraints in the past couple of years, 

the Border Patrol has had to reduce the amount of hours worked 

by its agents to reduce overtime costs. What impact has this had 

on the Border Patrol’s capacity to deal with the surge and migration we are currently seeing as well as other threats in the border 

region? I think you have addressed this, at least in part. Do you 

want to take another shot at it, and then I am going to ask Mr. 

Judd if he would just share his thoughts with us, too. 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, in late 2012, we looked at the 2013 and the 

2014 budget picture before sequestration and recognized that there 

was some savings based on our emerging awareness and understanding of the challenge we had with the AUO rule book, and we 

decided that we could take some risk in reducing hours in order to 

drive savings from those accounts. 

We decided in 2013 to do that as an experiment, to see how well 

we could monitor what is by statute uncontrollable. I think we did 

a fair job of that before and after sequester, and the sequester 

plans made that ultimately more difficult. In 2014, we drive for 

more savings. But, what that means, really, is shrinking hours of 

agent deployment, and so the overlaps. You go from a three-shift 

model to a four-shift model or more. And then you are pulling 

hours out of the workforce in order not to make FLSA payments 

to agents. And so what that means is you are reducing capability. 

Now, we think that those risks that we were taking were adequate and substantial, but manageable. And in the situation as it 

relates to RGV, we recognize now that that cannot be the way forward. The work set that is down there, and in other places, we cannot continue to do that. So, we have reduced those costs to meet 

the targets in 2013 and attempted to do the same in 2014, but 

there are certain locations where that is just not an acceptable risk 

anymore. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Mr. Judd, any thoughts on this? 

Mr. JUDD. Absolutely. To those that are watching on C–SPAN, 

to keep this in layman’s terms, what we are seeing with this surge 
33 

that is coming over in RGV, it is pulling agents out of the field. 

They are no longer patrolling the border. They are having to deal 

with this huge influx of minors that are coming in. They are having 

to process them. They are having to watch them. They are having 

to feed them. They are having to do all of these different things instead of actually being out and patrolling the border. 

Not only is that happening in RGV, but because they do not have 

the facilities to manage the influx of crossings, they are now sending them to places like El Paso, the Tucson Sector, and what that 

is doing, that is also pulling resources out of the field, Border Patrol Agents out of the field, that would normally be patrolling the 

border and they are now having to do those same things. They are 

having to process these illegal aliens. They are having to watch 

them. They are having to feed them. They are having to take care 

of all of the needs while they are in our custody, and what it is 

doing is it is straining to the breaking point the number of agents 

that we are able to deploy out into the field and it is hurting us. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Thanks. How will the TesterMcCain bill address this issue, or these issues? 

Mr. VITIELLO. So, specifically, the hours past—the FLSA remuneration is not part of the compensation package going forward, so 

straight time for the assigned 8 hours, or for the assigned 10 hours 

through the shift. That would give us more capability. It is, in essence, giving us nearly 1,500 agents more capability along the borders with current staffing levels. So, it allows us to flex in that 

overlap. It allows us to have a core capability across the force, and 

so I do not have to shrink hours in order to reduce those payments 

of that budget picture. 

Mr. JUDD. In essence, you will be paying me the same amount 

of money to work 10 hours as what you are currently paying me 

to work 9.3 hours, and that is where the additional 1,000, 1,200 

agents comes in. Because you are paying me FLSA right now, I am 

only able to work 9.3 hours because we have this overtime budget 

and we cannot exceed that overtime budget. So, I am working 9.3 

hours. The Senator McCain and Senator Tester bill will allow me 

to work 10 hours for the exact same amount of pay as what I would 

work at 9.3, 9.25 hours. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. The last question I have relates to something Dr. Coburn said to me early in the hearing, and it dealt with 

the calculation of pension benefits for those that work under this 

kind of pay arrangement. And he suggested that it would save— 

he felt it would save money in the near term, but in the long term, 

may cost money because of additional pension payments. Can 

somebody just speak to that? In fact, all of you are welcome to address that, if you would like. Mr. Miles, do you have anything you 

want to say on that front? 

Mr. MILES. No, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. Mr. Hamrick. 

Mr. HAMRICK. No, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. Why not? [Laughter.] 

Mr. HAMRICK. I have nothing to add, sir. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Mr. Judd. 

Mr. JUDD. That is absolutely incorrect. Our pension right now is 

based upon 25 percent AUO plus our base pay. This would keep 
34 

everything exactly the same. This would not change anything. It 

would not cost more. It would not cost less. The pension would be 

the same. 

Chairman CARPER. All right. Chief. 

Mr. VITIELLO. It is not a change as it relates to AUO payments 

or other statutes that are out there like LEAP. 

Chairman CARPER. OK. I think we are going to wrap it up here. 

I think we are just about to start some votes over in the Senate. 

I think, with that, I want to thank each of you for coming today. 

Thanks for making time to be with us, probably on fairly short notice—one of you, at least, very short notice. We appreciate your testimony. We appreciate your answering our questions. 

The hearing record is going to remain open for 15 days—that is 

until June 24 at 5 p.m.—for the submission of statements and 

questions for the record. I am going to urge my colleagues, if they 

have any additional questions, to submit them well before June 24 

so that we can get very prompt answers to those questions. 

But, with that having been said, it has been a good hearing. I 

am appreciative of the time that has been invested by our witnesses, by our staff, and by the Members. 

This hearing is adjourned. Thanks so much. 

[Whereupon, at 5:21 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 
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