U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

45–289 CC WASHINGTON : 1998

THE OKLAHOMA CITY NATIONAL MEMORIAL

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC

LANDS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

H.R. 1849

TO ESTABLISH THE OKLAHOMA CITY NATIONAL MEMORIAL AS A UNIT OF THE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM, TO DESIGNATE THE OKLAHOMA CITY TRUST,

AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

SEPTEMBER 9, 1997, WASINGTON, DC

Serial No. 105–55

Printed for the use of the Committee on Resources

(
(II)

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

DON YOUNG, Alaska, Chairman

W.J. (BILLY) TAUZIN, Louisiana

JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah

JIM SAXTON, New Jersey

ELTON GALLEGLY, California

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado

JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California

WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland

KEN CALVERT, California

RICHARD W. POMBO, California

BARBARA CUBIN, Wyoming

HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho

LINDA SMITH, Washington

GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California

WALTER B. JONES, JR., North Carolina

WILLIAM M. (MAC) THORNBERRY, Texas

JOHN SHADEGG, Arizona

JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada

ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon

CHRIS CANNON, Utah

KEVIN BRADY, Texas

JOHN PETERSON, Pennsylvania

RICK HILL, Montana

BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada

MICHAEL D. CRAPO, Idaho

GEORGE MILLER, California

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts

NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia

BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota

DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon

ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American

Samoa

NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaii

SOLOMON P. ORTIZ, Texas

OWEN B. PICKETT, Virginia

FRANK PALLONE, JR., New Jersey

CALVIN M. DOOLEY, California

CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELO ́ , Puerto

Rico

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York

ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam

SAM FARR, California

PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island

ADAM SMITH, Washington

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts

CHRIS JOHN, Louisiana

DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin Islands

RON KIND, Wisconsin

LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas

LLOYD A. JONES, Chief of Staff

ELIZABETH MEGGINSON, Chief Counsel

CHRISTINE KENNEDY, Chief Clerk/Administrator

JOHN LAWRENCE, Democratic Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS

JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah, Chairman

ELTON, GALLEGLY, California

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado

WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland

RICHARD W. POMBO, California

HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho

LINDA SMITH, Washington

GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California

WALTER B. JONES, JR., North Carolina

JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona

JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada

ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon

RICK HILL, Montana

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada

ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American

Samoa

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts

NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia

BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota

DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan

FRANK PALLONE, JR., New Jersey

CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELO ́ , Puerto

Rico

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York

ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam

PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts

DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin Islands

RON KIND, Wisconsin

LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas

ALLEN FREEMYER, Counsel

P. DANIEL SMITH, Professional Staff

LIZ BIRNBAUM, Democratic Counsel
(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held September 9, 1997 ............................................................................ 1

Statements of Members:

Chenoweth, Hon. Helen, a Representative in Congress from the State

of Idaho, prepared statement of ................................................................... 49

Faleomavaega, Hon. Eni F.H., a Delegate in Congress from American

Samoa ............................................................................................................ 3

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 4

Hansen, Hon. James V., a Representative in Congress from the State

of Utah ........................................................................................................... 1

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 2

Istook, Hon. Ernest J., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State

of Oklahoma .................................................................................................. 9

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 10

Lucas, Hon. Frank, a Representative in Congress from the State of Oklahoma ............................................................................................................... 5

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 8

Watts, Hon. J. C., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State

of Oklahoma, prepared statement of ........................................................... 7

Statements of witnesses:

Butzer, Hans E., Designer, Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation Design

Team .............................................................................................................. 23

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 45

Finnerty, Maureen, Associate Director for Park Operations and Education, National Park Service ...................................................................... 14

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 41

Johnson, Robert M., Chairman, Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation ...... 25

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 44

Inhofe, Hon. James M., a Senator in Congress from the State of Oklahoma, prepared statement of ....................................................................... 6

Keating, Governor Frank, a State Senator from Oklahoma, prepared

statement of ................................................................................................... 7

Marrs, Gary B., Fire Chief, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma ............................... 37

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 48

Norick, Ronald J., Mayor, Oklahoma City ..................................................... 24

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 43

Pouland, John, Regional Administrator, Region 7, General Services Administration ................................................................................................... 16

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 42

Rogers, Don, Former Building Manager, A.P. Murrah Federal Building,

Oklahoma City, Oklahoma ........................................................................... 36

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 47

Welch, Emmett E. ‘‘Bud’’, Resident, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma .................. 34

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 46

Additional material supplied:

Letter of Understanding .................................................................................. 71

Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task Force, Memorial Mission Statement ............................................................................................................... 98

Text of H.R. 1849 .............................................................................................. 51

The Oklahoma City National Memorial ......................................................... 66
(1)

HEARING ON: H.R. 1849, TO ESTABLISH THE

OKLAHOMA CITY NATIONAL MEMORIAL AS

A UNIT OF THE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM,

TO DESIGNATE THE OKLAHOMA CITY

TRUST, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1997

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON NA- TIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS, COMMITTEE ON RE- SOURCES, Washington, DC.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room 1324,

Longworth House Office Building, Hon. James V. Hansen (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JAMES V. HANSEN, A

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF UTAH

Mr. HANSEN. Good Morning. The Subcommittee on National

Parks and Public Lands will come to order.

Today we will receive testimony on H.R. 1849, The Oklahoma

City National Memorial Act of 1997. The bill was introduced in the

House of Representatives by our colleague, Mr. Lucas of Oklahoma,

to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the

National Park System, to designate the Oklahoma City Memorial

Trust, and for other purposes.

H.R. 1849 recognizes the national impact and importance of the

horrible act of domestic terrorism that occurred on April 19, 1995,

the bombing and destruction of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal

Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, resulting in the deaths of

168 men, women, and children. The incident and its aftermath

brought the Nation together to respond to this assault on our governmental institutions and our people, but particularly to mourn

with the thousands of families in Oklahoma City that were directly

affected by the deaths of these 168 individuals, the injuries to hundreds of others who survived the blast, and the concerns of the entire Federal work force who felt they might still be targets in random terrorist attacks.

[Bill H.R. 1849 may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. HANSEN. Today, we will hear testimony that will reaffirm

the American Spirit. We will witness the courage of individuals directly affected by this tragedy, and be inspired by the approach

that the citizens of Oklahoma have undertaken to encourage the

passage of this legislation we are considering.

There are many things of importance to say about this legislation, and as this hearing progresses this morning our distinguished
2

witnesses will convey the need for this Oklahoma City National

Memorial. Significantly, the Memorial Mission Statement, developed by the 350-member Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task

Force, will serve as the cornerstone to this hearing, and to the

eventual dedication of the Oklahoma City National Memorial. It

states, ‘‘We come here to remember those who were killed, those

who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave here

know the impact of violence. May this Memorial offer comfort,

strength, peace, hope and serenity.’’

We are aware that the National Park Service now supports the

establishment of the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit

of the National Park System, but continues to have strong reservations about the establishment of the Oklahoma City Memorial

Trust. This Subcommittee is interested in assuring that this partnership among the Federal, state, and local governments and the

private sector is fostered. This approach to funding, administration,

and interpretation of the Oklahoma City National Memorial may

well be a future model for the addition of some units to the National Park System. The Subcommittee is encouraged to know that

the National Park Service and the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation have discussed the possibility of signing a Cooperative

Agreement to carry out the intent of H.R. 1849.

I look forward to the testimony we will receive this morning. I

will recognize Mr. Lucas as the first witness, after members of the

Subcommittee have been recognized for any opening statements

they may have.

I recognize Mr. Faleomavaega, my distinguished colleague, the

Ranking Member of this Subcommittee.

[The statement of Mr. Hansen follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES V. HANSEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE

STATE OF UTAH

Good Morning. The Subcommittee on National Parks and Public Lands will come

to order.

Today we will receive testimony on H.R. 1849, The Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997. The bill was introduced in the House of Representatives by our

colleague, Mr. Lucas of Oklahoma, to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System, to designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, and for other purposes.

H.R. 1849 recognizes the national impact and importance of the horrible act of

domestic terrorism that occurred on April 19, 1995; the bombing and destruction of

the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, resulting in

the deaths of 168 men, women, and children. The incident and its aftermath

brought the Nation together to respond to this assault on our governmental institutions and our people, but particularly to mourn with the thousands of families in

Oklahoma City that were directly affected by the deaths of these 168 individuals,

the injuries to hundreds of others who survived the blast, and the concerns of the

entire Federal work force who felt they might still be targets in random terrorist

attacks.

Today, we will hear testimony that will reaffirm the American Spirit. We will witness the courage of individuals directly affected by this tragedy, and be inspired by

the approach that the citizens of Oklahoma have undertaken to encourage the passage of this legislation we are considering.

There are many things of importance to say about this legislation, and as this

hearing progresses this morning our distinguished witnesses will convey the need

for this Oklahoma City National Memorial. Significantly, the Memorial Mission

Statement, developed by the 350-member Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task

Force, will serve as the cornerstone to this hearing, and to the eventual dedication

of the Oklahoma City National Memorial. It states, ‘‘We come here to remember

those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever. May all who
3

leave here know the impact of violence. May this memorial offer comfort, strength,

peace, hope and serenity.’’

We are aware that the National Park Service now supports the establishment of

the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System, but

continues to have strong reservations about the establishment of the Oklahoma City

Memorial Trust. This Subcommittee is interested in assuring that this partnership

among the Federal, state, and local governments and the private sector is fostered.

This approach to funding, administration, and interpretation of the Oklahoma City

National Memorial may well be a future model for the addition of some units to the

National Park System. The Subcommittee is encouraged to know that the National

Park Service and the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation have discussed the possibility of signing a Cooperative Agreement to carry out the intent of H.R. 1849.

We look forward to the testimony we will receive this morning. I will recognize

Mr. Lucas as the first witness, after members of the Subcommittee have been recognized for any opening remarks.

I recognize Mr. Faleomavaega, my distinguished colleague, the Ranking Member

of this Subcommittee.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, A

DELEGATE IN CONGRESS FROM AMERICAN SAMOA

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman,

and Members of our Subcommittee, along with the rest of the

world, I stood in shocked silence on April 19, 1995, as I watched

the TV news accounts of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. My first thoughts were for all the

people in the building. At first, I saw people streaming out with little more than scrapes and bruises, thinking maybe the building

was empty, or maybe the children in the day care center were at

a city park far away. But seeing the destruction, my mind knew

of the carnage that would be. The building was filled with people

and about 168 innocent victims lost their lives. Just as we were

trying to grasp the tragedy before us, we were forced to face the

realization that this horrendous act was carried out by an American and the victims selected solely because they worked for the

Federal Government.

Mr. Chairman, this incident in Oklahoma City also demonstrated

another forum of ugliness in our society today. The media was on

a feeding frenzy and our investigative organizations immediately

started targeting the homes and residences of Americans who happened to be of Arab descent. To think that any act of terrorism is

to be associated with the Arab community is wrong. We should always guard against this kind of stereotyping and generalization.

Mr. Chairman, my thoughts were then and continue to be with

the families and friends of those killed or wounded in the blast. To

lose a loved one under any circumstance is painful, but to have it

happen through such a random and cowardice act must be almost

unbearable. It is, therefore, extremely appropriate that a memorial

be established at the scene of the attack and supported by the Federal Government.

Mr. Chairman, in the interests of time, I would like to submit

the remainder of my statement. I look forward to hearing from our

witnesses, especially the gentleman from Oklahoma, my good

friends and colleagues, Congressman Istook, who will be testifying

this morning.

[The statement of Mr. Faleomavaega follows:]
4

STATEMENT OF HON. ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, A DELEGATE IN CONGRESS FROM THE

TERRITORY OF AMERICAN SAMOA

Mr. Chairman, and Members of our Subcommittee, along with the rest of the

world, I stood in shocked silence on April 19, 1995 as I watched the TV news accounts of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

My first thoughts were for all the people in the building. At first, I saw people

streaming out with little more than scrapes and bruises, thinking maybe the building was empty, or maybe the children in the day care center were at a city park

far away. But seeing the destruction, my mind knew of the carnage that would be.

The building was filled with people and 168 innocent victims lost their lives. Just

as we were trying to grasp the tragedy before us, we were forced to face the realization that this horrendous act was carried out by an American and the victims selected solely because they worked for the Federal Government.

Mr. Chairman, this incident in Oklahoma City also demonstrated another forum

of ugliness in our society today. The media was on a feeding frenzy and our investigative organizations immediately started targeting the homes and residences of

Americans who are of Arab descent. To think that any act of terrorism is to be associated with the Arab community is wrong, and we should always guard against this

kind of stereotyping and generalizations.

My thoughts were then and continue to be with the families and friends of those

killed or wounded in the blast. To lose a loved one under any circumstance is painful but to have it happen through such a random and cowardice act must be almost

unbearable. It is, therefore, extremely appropriate that a memorial be established

at the scene of the attack and supported by the Federal Government.

I agree with the recommended themes developed by the memorial task force

which spent a year talking and listening to people about a fitting memorial site. As

recommended, the site should be a place of remembrance of both victims and survivors as individuals. It should bring peace to the visitor along with spirituality and

hope. The cherished children need their own place within the memorial designed for

their size and their ability to learn. Further, the memorial should be as a comfort

to any visitor, and provide recognition for all those who responded to help those in

need. Finally, the memorial needs to be a place of learning for all who visit so the

tragedy is never to be forgotten.

I want to welcome our colleagues who have come here to testify this morning including Frank Lucas who introduced the bill and Jim Inhofe and Ernest Istook who

are here to speak about the legislation. I further welcome all the witnesses and especially those who traveled here from Oklahoma to be with us.

Earlier this summer President Clinton congratulated Hans and Torrey Butzer on

their winning design for the memorial. I look forward to hearing from them as well.

It is clear that the intention is for this legislation to move swiftly through the

house. A similar bill has already passed the Senate. I have been notified that this

bill is already scheduled for full Committee mark up tomorrow. I support this memorial but would caution against allowing our support for creating a proper memorial causing us to pass a bill in haste. I think it is important to listen to the witnesses today and see what suggestions they may have to make creation and management of the memorial as easy as possible. This important legislation should set

up a process whereby both Federal and local interests work together to ensure a

successful memorial. It is up to us to make sure that the implementation legislation

is correct. It would be a disservice to all those who suffered loss at the Murrah

Building to do anything less.

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. We have a vote on the floor. Let me

recognize Mr. Hefley, and following his remarks it would be my

suggestion that we stand in recess for a brief time while we vote

and then come back and will take the witnesses as soon as possible. Mr. Hefley?

Mr. HEFLEY. Mr. Chairman, I do not have any prepared remarks,

but let me just say this. As Mr. Istook and Mr. Lucas know, I am

from Oklahoma City. My home is in Oklahoma City and my family

is in Oklahoma City.

I felt particularly keenly about this particular act of terrorism

because I do not think I have a family member or a friend in Oklahoma that was not directly and personally affected by this. They
5

either had—my mother-in-law had a friend who sang with her in

the church choir—or they had a relative. Our farmer friend from—

Oklahoma had a neighbor who had gone down just to check his Social Security that morning.

I was affected very personally by this. I was on the grounds in

front of the Murrah Building shortly after the blast. I just happened to go down that way. I used to work out at the Y right across

the street that had the boarded-up windows from the blast. And to

look at that building firsthand after the blast, it was much worse,

as all of you who were there, I know. They even depicted it on television—it was a horror scene on television.

So, I think a memorial is perfectly appropriate, and I look forward to us planning together what kind of a memorial this should

be. I do have some questions about how it—I hope the witnesses

will provide those answers. For instance, are we going to put a unit

of the Park System there with personnel? Or this a cooperative relationship where Oklahoma would handle the day-to-day management of it? Those kind of questions I hope will be answered. But

I am fully in tune with the idea that there ought to be some kind

of a memorial so that we never forget this and so that the horrors

of it will be brought home to people, and it may help to deter. I

do not know. But I look forward to this hearing.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. We will stand in recess briefly. We urge

members to vote and hurry back and we will go to the witnesses.

[Recess.]

Mr. HANSEN. The hearing will come to order. Our first witness

is the Honorable Frank Lucas, who is chief sponsor of the bill.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE FRANK LUCAS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member and

Members of the Committee, for the opportunity to testify today before you regarding H.R. 1849, the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997.

Certainly the losses and struggles that resulted that day on April

19, 1995, the explosion in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal

Building, they resulted from a public attack that was shared by the

heartland community, the Nation and, I believe, the world.

My office was less than a block and a half away from that illfated building. Certainly it is both gratifying and a bit disheartening to realize that much of my legislative agenda during my

short career here in the U.S. House has been shaped by such an

evil act, and that certainly is what brings me here today.

Given, I believe, the national and international impact and reaction, the Federal character of the site of the bombing, the significant percentage of the victims and survivors who were Federal employees, a National Memorial designation is highly appropriate.

The Memorial Foundation, as I understand it, in this bill will not

accept a penny of Federal funding unless it is matched dollar for

dollar by private donations. The Foundation is asking for a onetime appropriation of $5 million.

I think that it is important to recognize the unique significance

of this memorial. This National Memorial will be one of the few
6

memorials that memorializes and honors not only those who died

but those who are still living. And certainly a memorial honoring

the living brings a unique set of circumstances in determining how

the site should be properly planned and interpreted while ensuring

the wishes of those still living in Oklahoma City.

Directed by the President, this legislation presented before you

today creates a workable balance between the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust and the National Park Service. Both the National

Park Service and non-Park Service personnel will staff the

grounds. All public comment, policy planning and design issues will

be made by the members of the board of directors of the Oklahoma

City National Memorial Trust, which will be established by the legislation.

I believe that it has always been the intention of the Oklahoma

City Memorial Foundation to work in cooperation with the National Park Service to properly manage the Oklahoma City National Memorial. The winning design for the Memorial, which will

be fully explained by its architect today, I think will be a fabulous

beacon drawing mankind to the site that will remind us of our nation’s greatness.

Earlier this summer the Senate passed the companion legislation

by a large vote and on the 13th of August President Clinton declared his support for the National Memorial.

If I could, Mr. Chairman, I would like to take, I think, this moment to introduce into the record written statements regarding

H.R. 1849 by Senator Inhofe, Mr. Watts, and Governor Frank

Keating.

Mr. HANSEN. Without objection.

[The statement of Senator Inhofe follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES M. INHOFE, A SENATOR IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE

OF OKLAHOMA

Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, as a former House Member, I am

both pleased and honored to have the opportunity to present my views today on the

Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997 (H.R. 1849). As an original cosponsor

of the Senate companion legislation, I certainly appreciate the leadership efforts

Representative Lucas has demonstrated on this important piece of legislation.

As you are aware, the Senate unanimously approved the Oklahoma City National

Memorial Act of 1997, S. 871, on July 31. I was extremely pleased at the pace in

which the Senate acted upon this legislation. It was just a few short months ago

that this legislation was just an idea. Now, we stand on the verge of enacting this

legislation to remember both the victims and survivors of this terrible tragedy.

On April 19, 1995, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building shook

the conscience of United States. As a result of this cowardly terrorist’s attack on

innocent people, 168 men, women, and children lost their lives. Few events, if any,

have shaken the American public’s view of themselves and confidence in the American way of life. The vivid memories and images of the tragedy will remain forever

etched in our minds for years to come. However, despite the tremendous loss of life

and innocence, the American spirit has shown remarkable resilience.

The individuals who lost their lives and those whose lives were altered as a result

of the bombing deserve to be remembered as national heroes. These innocent victims

arose each day and went to work to do the work of the American people. These were

working men, women, and innocent children, not the elected figureheads, and represent the true backbone of the American government. As individuals, they must be

honored and remembered. Therefore, it is fitting that the Memorial has been designed to honor them in a very visible way. Their lives serve as a testament to what

this country is, what it can be, and what it will be.

In addition to the immediate victims of the bombing, we must also recognize the

law enforcement officials, the emergency rescue personnel, and the countless volunteers who rushed to Oklahoma during our hour of greatest need. The memorial’s ac-
7

knowledgment of not only the victims, but the others involved in the rescue process,

is artfully done to remind us all that we are part of a nation that cares and responds to those in need.

The establishment of the memorial is not only appropriate but an important part

of teaching future generations of Americans what we are all about. This memorial

will serve as a constant reminder to us that the price of our freedom is eternal vigilance against those who would rob us of our sense of security through acts of senseless terrorism.

I am pleased that throughout the entire process of establishing this memorial that

many of those who have been involved in the formation of this idea at the local and

state level have been given the opportunity to express their views. Additionally, earlier this year at a Senate field hearing, the survivors and the families of those who

tragically lost their lives were given the opportunity to share their personal experiences. Through this painstaking process we will have ensured that the names of

those involved in this terrible tragedy will not be lost to history, but rather will command a place of honor and respect in our nation’s history.

In closing, I would again like to thank the Subcommittee for holding this hearing

on the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997. Furthermore, I would like

to urge the House of Representatives to take up this bill that justly remembers the

victims, survivors, and volunteers of the Oklahoma City Bombing.

[The statement of Mr. Watts follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. J. C. WATTS, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE

STATE OF OKLAHOMA

I would like to thank Chairman Hansen for holding this hearing today on the

Oklahoma City National Memorial Act. I applaud Congressman Lucas’s efforts in

introducing this bill and realizing the importance of this legislation to all the people

of Oklahoma.

April 19th, 1995 was a terrible day for the State of Oklahoma. The whole world

witnessed what minutes before seemed like an unthinkable act of terrorism. We, as

a state and a country, pulled together as one to help all of those in need. Everyone

was awed by the outpouring of love and generosity during this time of tragedy in

our state.

A national memorial for the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing will help continue the healing process in Oklahoma. This will serve as a central place where all

people, who were either victimized or lost a family member or friend, can go to remember not only the day of the tragedy but also the love and support offered by

the people of this great Nation.

We must not forget the Homeric actions that occurred on the morning of April

19th, 1995. This memorial will allow us to reflect on that day and all those who

were affected by this tragedy. It will serve as a memorial of hope, showing future

generations of Americans how we as country came together during a time of unimaginable tragedy.

Thank you again Chairman Hansen for having this hearing. All of Oklahoma

thanks you and Congressman Lucas for your efforts in the passage of this legislation.

[The statement of Governor Keating follows:]

STATEMENT OF GOVERNOR FRANK KEATING, A STATE SENATOR FROM OKLAHOMA

I am proud to write in support of H.R. 1849 by Representative Lucas.

The April 19, 1995 terror bombing of the Murrah Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City was an assault on our Federal Government. It claimed 168 lives and

changed many more. The national response to this tragedy was unprecedented; assistance came to Oklahoma from all 50 states, and for the days and weeks after the

bombing, the site of the Murrah Building was the focus of the nation’s attention.

After the bombing’s rubble was removed, the site was enclosed by a chain link

fence which has become a makeshift memorial—a place of remembrance which

draws hundreds of visitors each day. Those visitors also come from all across our

country. They leave mementos on the fence, or simply stand and pray. I have only

seen one other place with the emotional impact of this site, the Vietnam Memorial

in Washington.

The Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation has selected a design for the permanent

memorial to be constructed at the Murrah site. Work is expected to begin on the

memorial within the next 12 months, with completion and dedication sometime in
8

1999. This memorial will include outdoor facilities, remembrances of those who died

and those who were directly affected by the bomb, and a museum. The hundreds

of visitors who come to the site each day will swell to thousands after the memorial

is constructed. This place has already become a national shrine; in the serve as a

reminder of the costs of violence and hate, and as an affirmation of all that is good

in our land.

H.R.1849 would transfer the site to the management of the National Park Service,

in anticipation of the completion of the memorial. This is a fitting and appropriate

step, especially given the willingness of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation,

the Oklahoma Historical Society and state and local government to cooperate in creating, building and operating the permanent memorial. We have an opportunity to

encourage close and beneficial cooperation among Federal, state and local authorities, both private and public, by approving this resolution.

I urge its adoption.

Mr. LUCAS. And let me say once again that I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing before the Subcommittee and for the

Members of this Committee to consider this piece of legislation. I

think it is truly a unique opportunity to create a memorial that

may weld new concepts in planning and design and interpretation

and utilization, because that is what it is all about. I thank the

Members of Congress. We serve a purpose of representing our constituencies and we do what—and with that, Mr. Chairman, I would

be glad to answer any possible questions you may have.

[The statement of Mr. Lucas follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK D. LUCAS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE

STATE OF OKLAHOMA

Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, I thank you for the opportunity to

testify before you today. I am proud to have introduced H.R. 1849, the Oklahoma

City National Memorial Act of 1997. This historical legislation is a huge step in the

healing process for the people of my state and the entire nation.

When a massive bomb exploded in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building

on April 19, 1995, it shook Oklahoma City’s foundation and shocked the nation. Few

events in the century have rocked American’s perception of themselves and their institutions, and brought together the people of our great nation with the intensity

of this devastating crime. Although these losses and struggles are personal, and you

will certainly hear of some of these experiences today, they resulted from a public

attack and are shared by a heartland community, the nation, and the world.

One of my district offices was less than a block and a half away from that illfated building. When I saw the damage to my office, a block and a half away from

ground zero, the disbelief that I shared with my staff will never be forgotten. Mr.

Chairman, colleagues, as you can well imagine there was no legislative road map

to follow in the wake of this tragic event. It is both gratifying and a bit disheartening to realize that much of my legislative agenda during my short career in the

House has been shaped by such an evil act. Over the past years I have had the

privilege and opportunity to help ease the burden Oklahoma City has beared as a

result of this devastating tragedy. And this is what brings me here today.

As will be explained in greater detail by others present, this memorial will encompass the Murrah building site, Fifth Street between Robinson and Harvey and the

sites of the Water Resources and the Journal Record buildings. Both National Park

Service and non-park service personnel will staff the grounds. All public comment,

policy, planning, and design issues will be made by the Members of the Board of

Directors of the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust, which will be established

by this legislation.

Given the national and international impact and reaction, the Federal character

of the site of the bombing, and the significant percentage of the victims and survivors who were Federal employees, a National Memorial designation is highly appropriate. My legislation heralds the spirit, determination, and hope of Oklahomans

and all Americans who have persevered in the wake of such a tragic event. The

Oklahoma City Memorial will be established, designed, managed and maintained to

educate present and future generations, through a unique public/private partnership, to work together efficiently and respectfully in developing a national memorial

relating to all aspects of the April 19, 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City.
9

The character of Oklahomans continues to be on display in their asking the Federal Government for financial assistance on this meaningful project. Although the

Memorial will need approximately $24 million to be established, Oklahomans are

asking that legislation establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of

the National Park System and authorize only $5 million in Federal funding. Furthermore, the memorial fourth will not accept a penny of Federal funding unless it

is matched dollar for dollar by private donations. In addition to the proposed Federal money, the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation is seeking $5 million from the

Oklahoma State Legislature and $14 million in private donations.

The love and respect Oklahoma City has received, since being thrust into the national spotlight, was most evident in the vast participation and outpouring during

the international design competition. The winning design, which will be fully explained by its architect today, will be a fabulous beacon drawing mankind to a site

that will remind us of our nation’s greatness. This nation, as has been proven many

times in the past, will not be defeated by forces that seek to divide us.

Leaders from across the country have already stepped forward in a bipartisan effort to support this National Memorial. The Senate has already shown its support

by passing the companion legislation S. 871 on July 31. On August 13, President

Clinton also showed his support for the National Memorial by inviting the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation to a ceremony at the White House endorsing the

memorial design. At this ceremony, President Clinton stated, ‘‘The tragedy was a

national one, and the memorial should be recognized and embraced and supported

by the nation.’’ He further stated, ‘‘And we have now a memorial that I hope will

be part of our national park system.’’ I wholeheartedly believe this memorial deserves to be designated a National Memorial.

I would like to thank Chairman Hansen and members of the Committee for the

opportunity to testify before you today.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. We appreciate your testimony. Mr.

Istook?

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ERNEST J. ISTOOK, JR., A

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF

OKLAHOMA

Mr. ISTOOK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the chance

to be here to support Congressman Lucas’ legislation.

When we look at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing and why

it is unique, it is because two things have come together that normally are very different. The same spot which demonstrated the

very worst in man also became the spot where the very best was

shown in an outpouring of service, aid, work, comfort and love. To

have these extremes of the worst and of the best occur in the same

spot, the same event, is unique.

You can go anywhere in America or in the world and find a spot

of some tragic event. Perhaps we cannot build a monument to

every tragedy, but what happened on April 19, 1995, and the days

following gripped our country so strongly that it is universally

agreed that this memory and its lessons must be preserved and

never forgotten.

In my own generation, very few events stand out as occasions

when everyone remembers where they were and what they were

doing at that moment: There was the assassination of President

John F. Kennedy; the moment when man first stepped on the

moon; the tragic explosion of the space shuttle Challenger; and now

the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. It

has taken its place as a universally shared experience, embedded

forever, not only in our memories but also in our hearts. What happened in Oklahoma City, and the response by its citizens and by

all of America, must be preserved and must be remembered and we

must learn from it.
10

The outpouring of love and tears, help, care and determination

set a powerful example for the entire country and for the world.

They saw a community which truly believed that we are our brother’s keeper. In memorializing this event, we do not remember just

an attack or an act of terrorism. We remember grief being met with

compassion, need being met with service, hurt being met with comfort, and continuing needs being met with an outpouring of help

that still flows strong today.

A lady made a statement to me about the bombing that I think

sums it all up. As she told me, ‘‘Our faith is greater than their sin.’’

In this memorial, we aspire to create a lasting and enduring monument to that eternal truth.

I appreciate the support of the Committee and hope that we all

recognize how totally unique this is, a monument not just to an act

of terrorism but a monument to hope and the uplift that we all

need in our hearts.

[The statement of Mr. Istook follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. ERNEST J. ISTOOK, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM

THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA

When we look at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing, and why it is unique,

it is because two things have come together that are normally very different. The

same spot which demonstrated the very worst in man also became the spot where

the very best was shown, in an outpouring of service, aid, work, comfort and love.

To have these extremes of the worst and of the best occur from the same event is

totally unique.

You can go anywhere in the United States, or in the world, and find the spot of

some tragic event. Perhaps we cannot build a monument to every tragedy, but what

happened on April 19, 1995, and the days following gripped our country so strongly,

it is universally agreed that this memory and its lessons must be preserved and

never forgotten.

In my own generation, very few events stand out as occasions when everyone remembers where they were and what they were doing at that moment: There was

the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; the moment when man first

stepped on the moon; the tragic explosion of the space shuttle Challenger, and now

the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. It has taken its

place as a universally-shared experience, embedded forever, not only in our memories but also in our hearts. What happened in Oklahoma City, and the response by

its citizens and by all America, must be preserved and remembered.

The outpouring of love, tears, help, care and determination set a powerful example for the entire county, and for the world. In memorializing this event, we do not

remember just an attack, or an act of terrorism. We remember grief being met with

compassion, need being met with service, hurt being met with comfort, and continuing needs met with an outpouring of help that still flows strong today.

A lady made a statement to me about the bombing that sums it all up. As she

told me, ‘‘Our faith is greater than their sin’’. In this memorial, we aspire to create

a lasting and enduring monument to that eternal principle.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you very much. We appreciate the testimony

of our good colleagues. And if you will stay just a moment and see

if there are any questions for you. Gentleman from—any questions

or comments?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Chairman, I have no questions, just a

comment. I thank both the gentlemen for their testimony. I think

there is a question of whether or not there should be a park or a

memorial, should be under the control of the city—the residents of

Oklahoma City or whether the National Park Service should have

a dominant role in the management of this—if you would like to

comment on that?
11

Mr. LUCAS. I truly think that it is appropriate that we go about this the way the bill is drafted. Clearly in the $24 million that will

be required to design and create and staff this facility, $19 million

of those $24 million will come from state and local and private

sources, which gives it a unique character.

Because of the spontaneous coming together of the task force to

help create this plan in the beginning, I think that they have

shown a most unique capacity to do what is appropriate in this

case. I can say with confidence, though, that I believe that the

Trust, the Foundation that would come from this bill will do everything within their capacity and they—that can be addressed momentarily from the other witnesses in the panel. But I think they

will do everything within their capacity to develop and work in accord, a strong relationship with the National Park Service. And

based on my experience with the Park Service, I have great expectations that they will work just as diligently in the other direction.

And if they anything, we may well lay some new ground with this

piece of legislation, for how to address the important national

events and experiences.

Mr. ISTOOK. I wanted to echo Congressman Lucas’ comments, but

I think the plan for the construction and operation, if you will, very

much parallels what actually occurred in handling this disaster.

Certainly we had units from all over the country, disaster assistance and urban rescue squads that came in from many places in

the country. We had the Federal roles, FEMA, and disaster assistance. But, nevertheless, as—Fire Chief Marrs, who is here, he was

involved in directing efforts there. Nevertheless, it was still all coordinated through Oklahoma City.

And I think Oklahoma City showed unique capabilities and

unique capacity, and I believe the legislation tracks that very

model. It follows a model that was used so effectively in working

with the disaster itself. And I think it is really suitable that the

model for how the memorial will function will parallel that design.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Perhaps the closest precedent that we have

established in setting up National Memorials or Nationals Parks

has been an example that we have set up in the Presidio in San

Francisco. It is the thinking of both gentlemen and of the vast majority of the people in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, are you very comfortable in establishing this memorial? And you want to set up a

partnership with the National Park System but do you feel that

your people will be glad to take care of this issue in such a way

that the Park Service can help, but it is not necessary that they

have to control the entire effort?

Mr. ISTOOK. I think, Mr. Faleomavaega, the—you know, just

what went into working on the design of the memorial—Chairman

Johnson is here from the committee and Mayor Norick, who

oversaw the establishment of the method. The involvement has

been so great, from the community and from the citizens of Oklahoma City, and it is, frankly, important to the community that

they continue to show their ability, their capacity, to show how our

community cares for one another, to try to do things for ourselves.

I think that is very important to the community.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HANSEN. Mr. Hefley?
12

Mr. HEFLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the previous

questioner got the answer that I wanted. There does not seem to

be any dissension on this within Oklahoma, that you have everybody pretty much behind this effort?

Mr. LUCAS. Absolutely. I would say initially there was some

thought that it should be a state or local site, but then we considered, as we have all considered back home, the national implications. This was in fact a Federal site, a Federal Building. This was

an attack that took the lives of an incredible number of Federal

employees. This tragedy was an assault on the people of the entire

United States. So, that, in addition to the national and international media exposure and the outpouring of warmth and help

from people all across the Nation and around the world. This is a

site of national significance and scope. And the route that we are

attempting to go on this bill is the most appropriate, I feel. I

think—Oklahoma City to reflect that national significance.

Mr. HEFLEY. Well, you know, an image was created for Oklahoma City as a result of this tragedy, both good and bad; the good

being the way Oklahoma City rallied to meet this emergency and

the bad being such things as the Connie Chung statement, rather

than praising the firefighters in Oklahoma City and those who

around the country who came to help she said that: well, what is

the matter, does not Oklahoma City have any firefighters of its

own? I hope that was one of the things that contributed to her demise on network television. I do not know.

But I think it is very appropriate then that the people of Oklahoma should have a major say in creating the image for the memorial, if they would like. And the Chairman of this Committee and

Members of this Committee have worked very hard. We are struggling with the idea and realizing that the Federal Government cannot do everything, but we want more and better parks. We want

to recognize the important events of history the way we should.

And the idea of private, state, local, and Federal partnerships to

do this in certain cases seems very appropriate. And I think you

were right, Mr. Lucas, when you mentioned that this might be an

example that would be utilized in other places.

I would say this though, that I think the Trust would be very

shortsighted if they did not develop a close relationship with the

National Park Service. After all, they are the people that have been

in this business, and by and large doing a very good job in this

business, for a lot of years. And so I would hope that that would

be a very, very close relationship.

Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. The gentlelady from Virgin Islands?

Ms. CHRISTIAN-GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really do not

have any questions. I guess I would join you in welcoming my colleagues and commending Mr. Lucas for sponsoring the bill to memorialize and honor the memory of all of the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing—from this terrible tragedy and—experience—

I look forward to your testimony. I hear that that is the direction

in which you are going in. I commend you both. Thank you.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Duncan? Gentleman from Puerto Rico?
13

Mr. ROMERO-BARCELO ́. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also join my

colleagues here in commending Mr. Lucas and Istook, our colleagues, for bringing this up here. And, also, I remember that day’s

happening. In Puerto Rico we felt as though it had happened right

there at home. And we feel—this is, as you say, a national monument, not only a monument for Oklahoma but for all the Nation

for the world to see. I will be pleased to do it. Thank you.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. The gentleman from Minnesota, Mr.

Vento?

Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was not here for your

opening statement, just direct my comments to the authors. I was

interested in legislation. There is a law that deals with the designation, construction and maintenance of memorials and very few

of the—little of the testimony today addresses itself to that. It actually provides for the construction from private funds and the maintenance, in fact, funds set aside for the continued maintenance.

Really this case is extraordinary, the Federal role. I agree certainly with the designation. I agree with providing some support,

perhaps even more than what has been indicated here, but I appreciate and recognize the tremendous contribution and interest of the

citizens of Oklahoma nationwide in terms of supporting this.

I think the question here in terms of the corporation is—first

question to be asked: is the Park Service capable of managing and

doing this traditional role? You are asking for Park Service designation, but then you—the Park Service actually to effect and protect the integrity and deal with the nation’s parks.

I understand, Mr. Chairman, there is no controversy over the design of the memorial. There is a pretty good consensus about that.

So the question—my question is with—I do not expect any of you

to answer them, because I think that they are questions that really

need to be answered probably by all of those participating today.

But, you know, is this the deal that—who is going to decide if there

are any modifications to it? Is this going to be still in the hands

of the Park Service or Congress? The operation costs, the maintenance costs, who is going to decide what—how they are treated in

terms of the integrity of this particular memorial. Who is going to

be responsible for the law enforcement? It may seem a like small

thing, but it becomes very hard when you have to, you know, get

an individual who decides that they want to take a rest on one of

the benches for the evening.

So, these are the types of questions that, you know, in terms of

who is going to be managing this and what the relationship is.

Which I think these go well beyond the fact of GSA/FEMA, the

interagency agreement. It really needs to be something that we

need to put forth in the legislation in terms of directing the Park

Service, who does—in terms of writing, and then come up with

some agreement. I do not—I do not think—but at the end of the

day if it is going to be a National Park designated monument? I

mean that this is not San Francisco. It is the only corporation we

have. In fact, we have done some very hard projects in terms of

rehab projects, like the Statue of Liberty, dealing with foundations.

So, there are plenty of models for drafting or drawing on private

sources and giving a pretty good voice, a pretty good working relationship with the Park Service.
14

I agree that—establishes a law, a law that deals with the designation of memorials, the construction and maintenance of them,

and I suggest you look to it rather than the corporation model,

which frankly was an unusual circumstance for Presidio and something you might use for, as I say to my friend Mr. Lucas, as a—

corporation. As a private-government corporation, these have extraordinary powers. I think that it is not probably something that

has been fully explored here in terms of what the issues are that

we might be involved in. This is actually setting up another entity

of government. For those of us that are concerned about too much

government, you might be concerned about the state of the local

government and the Federal Government. Do we need another entity?

And so I just leave you with those thoughts and I hope that my

colleagues and the many others that will be addressing these will

be discussing the issues that I raised. I think it is a good and worthy project and it has support. I think most of us here—the policy

fact is that we are establishing this very important legislation.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Congressman. We welcome our two colleagues from Oklahoma. We appreciate having you with us.

The first panel will be Maureen Finnerty, Associate Director for

Park Operations and Education, National Park Service, and John

Pouland, Regional Administrator in Region 7, General Services Administration. Thank you both. The Park Service?

Are you folks able to handle your testimony in 5 minutes? We

always give 5 minutes on the—it is like a traffic light. It works exactly the same way. Meaning go, yellow, and red means shut it off.

I am sure we can accommodate you. We will hear from the Park

Service, first.

STATEMENT OF MAUREEN FINNERTY, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR

FOR PARK OPERATIONS AND EDUCATION, NATIONAL PARK

SERVICE

Ms. FINNERTY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to address H.R. 1849, a bill to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System and to create a government corporation known

as the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust to manage the memorial.

First and foremost, let me say that we support the goal of establishing the memorial as a unit of the National Park System. The

significance of the tragedy of the bombing of the Murrah Federal

Building in Oklahoma City, and the meaning and implications of

this event for our nation, compel the establishment of this memorial as a visible and prominent national shrine. While we support

the establishment of this memorial, we have significant concerns

over certain aspects of its management as proposed in H.R. 1849

and strongly recommend an alternative management arrangement.

In raising these concerns, we share the sponsors’ goals for expeditiously creating an excellent, well-managed national memorial that

appropriately communicates and reflects the meaning of the Oklahoma City bombing to the nation.

If enacted, H.R. 1849 would create a new unit of the National

Park System in Oklahoma City—a memorial to recognize the pro-
15

found changes brought to so many lives on the morning of April 19,

1995. The legislation would direct the National Park Service, upon

the request of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, to provide technical assistance to the Trust and, along with other Federal agencies, to carry out day-to-day visitor service programs at the memorial.

While the circumstances compelling the establishment of a national memorial to the Oklahoma City tragedy as a unit of the National Park System are extraordinary, the approach to managing

this memorial should benefit from proven National Park Service

models. Because the National Park Service was not part of the

process that developed the Intergovernmental Letter of Understanding, dated October 28, 1996, we could not provide our suggestions at that time. We appreciate the opportunity provided by the

legislative process to share our views now about the most appropriate and effective role for each organization and governmental

entity involved in the memorial.

Mr. Chairman, we support the objective that this new unit of the

National Park System be managed and administered in close cooperation with, and with the full involvement of, local citizens and

entities. As proposed, however, the legislation provides no role to

the National Park Service in the management or administration of

this new park unless the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust requests

its involvement for certain limited purposes. Essentially, the legislation provides complete control over this new park unit to the

Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, a wholly owned government corporation.

One significant issue for reconsideration is the establishment of

the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust as a wholly owned government

corporation. In a 1995 report prepared by the Congressional Research Service for the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs,

a government corporation was defined as ‘‘an agency of the government, established by Congress to perform a public purpose, which

provides a market-oriented service and produces revenue that

meets or approximates its expenditures.’’

The only example of the use of a government corporation in the

National Park System is the Presidio Trust, established by legislation last November. The Presidio of San Francisco presented a tremendous management challenge. The military transferred an enormous complex with many buildings to the National Park Service.

In that case, the National Park Service needed the expertise of people familiar with business and real estate in the city of San Francisco who could effectively lease buildings and provide other mechanisms to assure that the Presidio’s buildings were protected. While

entrepreneurial revenue-generating goals are appropriate for the

Presidio, we question whether they are as appropriate for this memorial.

It was clear to us from the testimony given at the field hearing

in Oklahoma City that it is the wish of local citizens and the State

of Oklahoma to retain a strong level of local control and involvement in all aspects of the memorial’s operation and interpretation.

We believe that the legislation could best achieve this by directing

the National Park Service to manage the memorial in cooperation

with the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, which could operate
16

without the Federal restrictions that would be imposed on a government corporation. The general guidance for this cooperative effort could be outlined in legislation and the specific aspects of the

partnership developed through cooperative and interagency agreements.

We would be pleased to provide examples of public laws for existing National Park System units which involve partnerships with

municipal or private institutions, as well as examples of cooperative and interagency agreements at existing National Park System

units.

We look forward to working closely with the delegation and the

Committee staff in developing a legislative concept which will work

well for the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, the National

Park Service, and all of those who have been affected by this tragic

event. Thank you.

[The statement of Ms. Finnerty may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Mr. Pouland?

STATEMENT OF JOHN POULAND, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR,

REGION 7, GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION

Mr. POULAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members. My

name is John Pouland. I am Regional Administrator of the General

Services Administration for the Southwest Region which includes

Oklahoma City.

I am here today to support an effort which will help the people

of Oklahoma and the rest of the Nation to continue the healing

process. I am here today to support H.R. 1849.

As the President stated during the Ceremony on behalf of the

Memorial Foundation last month, ‘‘The Memorial design is elegant.

It is symbolic. It manages to focus on this act of unconscionable violence and still honor the valor of the people of the community and

the lives of the victims in a setting of reflection and peace that

should leave people, when they go through it, feeling stronger rather than weaker.’’

The people of the General Services Administration were personally affected by the suffering, involved in the rescue and emergency

management efforts, and assisted in the re-establishment of operational capabilities. Now we are proud to help with the healing

process. The Murrah Federal Building was part of the GSA-owned

Federal inventory and the child care center was part of a nationwide effort to create child care for Federal workers. Tragically, two

of our employees died in the attack and 20 others were injured.

Our regional employees were particularly distraught since we knew

many of the tenants, our customers, from the various agencies

housed in the building.

Immediately following the bombing, GSA employees assisted

emergency teams with the evacuation of the building. We established a security perimeter around the building for safety precautions and to expedite aid. Within hours of the explosion, GSA

established a command center in Oklahoma City and located space

for the Oklahoma City Disaster Field Office for the FEMA and the

Department of Justice. By the next morning, approximately 50 of

our GSA personnel were onsite assisting in critical areas. At the

same time, the Federal Building and Courthouse, one block south
17

of the Murrah Building, and the U.S. Post Office and Courthouse,

two blocks to the south, received immediate assistance to maximize

safety and restore normal operations.

GSA was able to respond immediately in various ways to the

Oklahoma City disaster. We either provided services directly or coordinated with other agencies and response groups. These circumstances were a true test of GSA’s preparedness systems and

procedures.

Since the tragedy, the site of the destroyed Murrah Building was

cleared and stands ready to be transformed from a site of pain and

sorrow to a site of remembrance and healing. GSA fully supports

the establishment of the memorial and is prepared to transfer the

site to an appropriate Federal agency, or local entity if that is

deemed appropriate. At the same time, GSA is planning to construct a new Federal building in Oklahoma City, as authorized by

the Administration and Congress and in cooperation with the city.

The establishment of a National Memorial is the right thing to

do. GSA supports the establishment of the Memorial and would

like to work with the Oklahoma delegation, the National Park

Service, and other agencies and entities to find the appropriate way

to manage the memorial.

This concludes my remarks. Thank you for having me. I look forward to answering any questions.

[The statement of Mr. Pouland may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you both for your testimony. Mr. Pouland,

H.R. 1849 provides for the transfer of the portion of the former

Murrah Federal Building Trust at no cost. Does GSA feel that the

intent of this transfer will allow GSA the flexibility your agency

needs to continue the ongoing operations and maintenance of the

underground parking garage at this site?

And, furthermore, do you believe that GSA can enter into a

Memorandum of Understanding and Cooperative Agreement with

the Trust, the National Park Service, the U.S. Marshal Service,

and the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts to effectively manage your adjoining two Federal buildings near the Oklahoma City

Memorial?

Mr. POULAND. My answer to both of those questions is yes, sir.

We do, we can, and we will. The issue of adjoining property line,

our parking garage, and how we will manage that longterm and

how we may have to—frankly, future generations, hopefully not

mine, may have to deal with renovation or construction issues on

that parking garage site, and it will be next to the Memorial. We

feel confident that we can do MOU’s, Memoranda of Understanding, work with the Foundation to get the appropriate flexibility we need to prepare ourselves for those contingencies in the

future. I would not want to be in a situation where 50 years from

now it was deemed that that parking garage had a higher and better use and the issue of access to that land and what we might do

there. I would not clarify it at this time, but we think we can do

that with an agreement with the Foundation, with the city, with

the community, an we will continue to work with them in every respect to address any concerns that we have now and that might

occur in the future, get those in writing, have a clear understanding of what the relationship is and deal with it appropriately.
18

Mr. HANSEN. Would the GSA or the National Park Service, especially your counterpart, Mr. John Cook, the Regional Director of

the National Park Service in Denver, Colorado, who assured all the

necessary Memorandum of Understanding and Cooperative Agreements are executed in a timely fashion? The Subcommittee feels

that there is a tremendous opportunity for Federal agency partnership at this proposed National Memorial and feels that GSA has

a role at this memorial, the National Park Service, and the Oklahoma City Trust.

Mr. POULAND. Yes, sir. I will, and the agency will, look forward

to working with the National Park Service. The National Park

Service and the Department of Interior are excellent customers of

ours, and we view them as such and we will work with them in

every way possible to ensure full participation, full understanding,

and we will certainly continue to work with the local community

in every respect.

Mr. HANSEN. Finally, Ms. Finnerty, how does the National Park

Service respond to this cooperative partnership with GSA and the

Oklahoma City Trust? Do you believe that this will assist in the

day-to-day management and success of the memorial?

Ms. FINNERTY. Well, certainly we would look forward to working

in cooperation under cooperative arrangement with all involved in

this, both at the local and Federal level, and I think that would be

important for the successful management of the site. However, we

still have some concerns about the legislation as drafted and the

overall role given specifically to the government trust to administer

this as a unit of the National Park System in accordance with the

laws and regulations. That role in specific on the Trust——

Mr. HANSEN. Further questions?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I think there seems to

be a problem here in defining exactly the difference between a National Memorial and a National Park. Is there a distinction between these two? It is my understanding there are 27 National

Parks that we have. Because of that designation—there is also a

difference in funding as well as administration. Am I correct on

this?

Ms. FINNERTY. Well, we have—as you know, Congressman, we

have 376 units in the National Park System, and I think about 45

or 50 of those carry the designation of National Park. The other

325 have a variety of names, being seashores, recreation areas, historic sites and memorials, mines, the whole range. Generally all

the units, though, are managed in accordance with the Organic Act

of the National Park Service, and then more specifically in accordance with the particular laws established these Federal units. We

really do not make a distinction of a memorial or a national park.

There are specific in legislation establishing—will certainly

provide——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. We hear what President Clinton did this

year. Because I ask all the Members to join me in supporting the

effort to establish a memorial on the site of the bombing, so apparently the Administration is agreeable to this concept. And I wanted

to ask Ms. Finnerty: I understand from your testimony that there

were no consultations between the National Park Service and the
19

initiative of the Oklahoma City, those involved with the State of

Oklahoma?

Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct. This letter that I referred to

from—dated in October 1996, the Park Service was not involved in

any of those discussions and that letter actually was signed by two

Federal representatives, GSA and FEMA, and with no consultation

with the Service in preparation. And it has only been fairly recently that Intergovernmental Letters came to light for us and we

were able to look at it.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Could it have been because it was an honest

oversight? Maybe they thought that maybe it was not necessary for

the National Park Service to be involved in the memorial?

Ms. FINNERTY. Well, I cannot speak to that, Congressman. Certainly the letters we have read, it does make a lot of references to

the National Park Service and a role—of having a role in the memorial, but we were not in on those discussions.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. It is my understanding that the Senate has

already passed its version of this National Memorial?

Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. How long was the National Park Service notified, at least for purposes of commenting on the proposed legislation? Were you given months or a couple of months or a couple of

weeks to comment?

Ms. FINNERTY. I think it was July of this year when the Senate

hearing was held and——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. So you really had no opportunity really to

make any—proposed legislation.

Ms. FINNERTY. And my understanding is, if you will correct this

if it is wrong, that at that time I am not even sure we knew about

the Intergovernmental Letter. And a lot has come to light during

the last couple of months, so we have gotten more information

about how this whole thing is put together. And I believe our testimony in July, we essentially did not take a position because we

were looking forward to working with these entities. We now of

course support the addition to the National Park System, but still

have some real concerns about who ultimately is going to ensure

that the site is managed in accordance with Park Service laws.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The train keeps moving, and the hope is

that the National Park Service will be there. How do you propose

a discussion? We have dealt with some issues with the National

Park Service—maybe 10 years for a National Park—and maybe

this monument—I think this is probably a bigger concern—delays.

Ms. FINNERTY. I do not think there needs to be inordinate delays.

We certainly are willing to work with the City staff, all those parties. We understand this is on a fast track and we think it could

be done fairly quickly, and we would just like to see some language

in there that ensures the Park Service will ultimately be responsible for ensuring that the Park Service laws, and those kinds of

things, are followed. The Trust is not going to have any experience

in that area. So, we think there are a number of models that can

be looked at and do not view this as being necessarily——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Can you at least propose—to our friends——

Ms. FINNERTY. We will be happy to—we shared some of those already from the Regional Office in Denver.
20

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HANSEN. We will have to recess. We have a Member in the

House of Representatives who is not getting his way and is posing

numerous frivolous motions. This is another motion to adjourn and

we will have to go over and vote on it, and then we will be back

just as quickly as we can.

[Recess.]

Mr. HANSEN. The Committee will come back to order. The panel

of witnesses come back to the table. We call on Mr. Lucas. Do you

have questions, Mr. Lucas?

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess really, Mr. Chairman, I only have a couple of questions, one of which I would like

to address to our Associate Director of the Park Service.

You commented earlier about the Park Service not being a part

of this process developing the Intergovernmental Letter dated October 28th of 1996. Do you remember or have any knowledge perhaps

of whether there was any contact made with the task force or any

of the entities in Oklahoma City during the process prior to that?

Ms. FINNERTY. Congressman, I was not until just a few minutes

ago on break, when Mr. Johnson indicated to me that they had

made some contacts, I guess with the Park Service in Denver. That

was the first that we were aware of any of that and—here in Washington, and we do not know who that was. We had no knowledge

of that here. And, of course, after the legislation was being put together and drafted, our legislative offices was never involved in

that. So, as I said, at break I just found out for the first time. But

certainly we in Washington, and our legislative office here, were

not approached at all during the discussions on this.

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you. And one other question. Do you agree

with, perhaps because of the population being represented in this

unique set of circumstances, that there are many features about

this circumstance that are unique?

Ms. FINNERTY. Well, I think no question. I would agree with

that.

Mr. LUCAS. And would you anticipate that should this legislation

become law, President signed, should it become law, would you anticipate that the Park Service would do their dead level best to the

Intergovernmental Agreement, or whatever avenues are necessary

to try to implement whatever laws that would be signed in?

Ms. FINNERTY. There is no question about that. We certainly will.

We will participate and be helpful and try to make this work. We

would feel, as I said before, a little more comfortable if we had a

little stronger language in the bill, a bit more clearly articulated

our role to help manage this in accordance with our laws and regulations.

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you. I really have no other questions at this

time, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Mr. Vento?

Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Finnerty, apparently

this legislation suggests that the Trust will in fact administer the

1916 Organic Act, is that correct?

Ms. FINNERTY. That is how we read it, Congressman.

Mr. VENTO. Well, that is how it is written. So, I mean, you know,

I think that that is—do we have any other examples in the Park
21

Service where we have corporations or other entities other than the

Park Service implementing the Federal laws, basically the Organic

Act, other than the Park Service.

Ms. FINNERTY. No, sir, we do not. We have the Presidio model,

of course, which you referenced earlier, which——

Mr. VENTO. I am familiar with that, but they are not implementing the 1916 Organic Act. They are a corporation——

Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.

Mr. VENTO. [continuing] with a specific—is not there a Memorandum of Agreement and a stipulation between the Park Service

and corporation as to what their role would be?

Ms. FINNERTY. Yes, there is. Presidio.

Mr. VENTO. Is there any Memorandum of Agreement between

the Park Service and this proposed trust and corporation as to

what the role of the corporation or the Park Service would be?

Ms. FINNERTY. For this particular legislation?

Mr. VENTO. Yes.

Ms. FINNERTY. I think it calls for the possibility that agreements

could be entered into. I think that is specified in the legislation.

But, again, it is not mandated and it would be at the beck and call

of the Trust.

Mr. VENTO. For instance, is it not accurate that it is completely

up to the corporation or the trust concerning whether the Park

Service would have any role in this particular memorial?

Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.

Mr. VENTO. So, in fact it may be that under this agreement that

there is no presence of the Park Service at a memorial which, in

fact, by the Letter of Agreement, is going to be inconsistent and

modelled after the 1916 Organic Act? It is possible there would be

no Park Service presence?

Ms. FINNERTY. Certainly it is possible that—because we—the

Park Service could have a role, a limited role, if asked. And——

Mr. VENTO. Why do you think that is important that the Park

Service be present?

Ms. FINNERTY. Well, I think it is going to be extremely difficult

for a government trust. You know, we have a lot of experience in

managing parks. We have been at it for a long period of time. We

have a lot of experience in opposing various legislative mandates,

the Code of Federal Regulations, these kinds of things. A government trust is not going to have any of that kind of experience and

I think it is going to be very difficult as they grapple with issues

like law enforcement, they grapple with issues like the issuance of

First Amendment permits. I mean, you know, it goes on and on

and on. But that is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, a

role, I think, for the trust to play. And those are the kinds of things

that we are really concerned about.

Mr. VENTO. In other words, whether this is exclusive or joint jurisdiction or, you know, completely operated by the corporation—

these are important questions. Is there any reason that this legislation, if you know, is not inconsistent with the Memorial Act laws

that we have today? Is not it true that most of the Memorials we

have have a private group associated with it or a public group associated with it that are responsible, nonprofit groups raising the

money for the memorial and for providing a budget or an escrow
22

amount or the maintenance operation of it—or maintenance of it,

is that correct?

Ms. FINNERTY. Yes. We have a number of models that exist right

now in the system of a variety of proper arrangements that deal

with issues of funding, that deal with issues of management. There

is a number of those kinds of things that we look at that we think

might be a good model for this.

We certainly understand that the local community and the citizens of the State of Oklahoma want to be very actively involved in

managing this memorial, and that can happen. That can happen

without any problem.

Mr. VENTO. Well, I mean in terms of selection of the site. But

what about the interpretation of it? Nobody knows what that interpretation is going to be. Is there a general management plan to be

developed for this particular memorial before it is law?

Ms. FINNERTY. The law does not speak to that.

Mr. VENTO. Well, but does the general law? The 1916 Organic

Act said every Memorial has to have a general management plan?

Ms. FINNERTY. I do not believe it is quite that specific, but certainly as a policy we do prepare planning documents for the use

of the System, yes.

Mr. VENTO. And then it has to be guided in terms of resource

protection, other factors that are part of what goes into this? You

said you do not know whether the 1916 Organic Act provides for

a general management plan?

Ms. FINNERTY. Well, it certainly provides for us to administer

units of the system in accordance with, you know, laws and regulations. And the general management planning process, we certainly

require that as part of our policy and that kind of thing. So, it is

under the 1916 Act, yes, we would have to look at a lot of those

planning documents and that kind of thing.

Mr. VENTO. Very often is not there a controversy or issues that

arise with regards to what the interpretation of a certain site

might be?

Ms. FINNERTY. Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Mr. VENTO. So, I mean, maybe through the problems in terms of

what the memorial—I do not know much about the operation and

maintenance of that. I mean, I know that there are going to be 168

chairs and there are going to be some other glass chairs, which

sounds very interesting and very profound, but I do not know what

the maintenance is of it. I do not know what—I guess it has undergone some scrutiny in terms of that. I assume it has. There is generally not a controversy about that, and I accept that. And it is

good that that issue is out there so—beyond that, how you interpret this site is another matter. In terms of—very often we have

found, for instance, at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, that individuals bring materials and leave them there.

Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.

Mr. VENTO. And so we have archives full of various types of

pieces of memorabilia which have been brought to that particular

site. And so these are the types of issues that arise as to what the

disposition of that material is, whether it should be—but I suggest

there may be some. So, I think there are a lot of questions that

have to be answered by those that are proposing this in terms of
23

establishing a corporation. Some of those questions are answered

in the legislation, but most often they are not. I can just tell you

that I think that in terms of obtaining the private funding and the

enthusiasm and control in terms of this, I think that the model

that was selected here raised lots of questions in my mind. The

purpose of it I completely agree with, in terms of private funding

and the corporation having some freedom, but I do not know why

it could not be under the nonprofit. We have Nature Conservancy

and—various pieces of the plan, designate a piece of it as—we need

to articulate what the responsibilities are much more clearly in

terms of the Park Service and in terms of the 1916 Organic Act

than what has been done.

I think some clarifying language—I understand that this is going

to be marked up tomorrow. And I think that these questions are

not answered in the testimony that I have read from anyone today.

I would be happy to yield. My time has expired, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HANSEN. Without objection.

[The information referred to may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. LUCAS. I appreciate the gentleman for sharing them. Just

ask for a moment that the gentleman—I think that the testimony

following in the next three panels there will be some opportunities

to get on into those various questions, that they have been aggressive in working with since the 19th of April, since the Task Force

has been set up, and I think the gentleman will be pleasantly surprised by the careful thought that has gone into this and the responses that will be given. I thank the gentleman.

Mr. VENTO. I will apologize to the gentleman in advance. I looked

at just—I read it—preread some of it, and if I will not be able to

stay for this, I hope that the markup of this might be able to facilitate or answer some of these questions. So, certainly tomorrow—

certainly, Mr. Chairman, that this is your decision, but I—thank

you.

Mr. HANSEN. I think Mr. Vento has raised some important questions, not the least of which I think I touch on, and that is in the

emotion of the moment, now, and the emotion is still very heavy,

I think, on the Nation and particularly anyone connected with

Oklahoma, we can plan grand schemes of things. But we have a

motion—it has not been easy to raise the private money and that

kind of thing. Then who is going to take it on and continue it? And

I think—and in what manner? I think that is kind of what you

were leading to in a way, Mr. Vento. I think that you need to deal

with those questions. I do not think—I think all of us here want

this memorial to succeed, and I think that is exactly what you were

getting at.

Well, thank you very much, panel, and we will go to the next

panel.

The Mayor of Oklahoma City, Ron Norick; Robert Johnson,

Chairman of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation; and Hans

Butzer, who is the Designer of the Memorial. We welcome the

panel. You folks have 5 minutes exactly——

Mr. NORICK. No, that would be fine.

Mr. HANSEN. I appreciate it very much.
24

STATEMENT OF RONALD J. NORICK, MAYOR, OKLAHOMA CITY

Mr. NORICK. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee,

I am Ronald J. Norick, Mayor of the city of Oklahoma City and I

want to thank you for allowing us to be here today.

As you know, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal

Building in downtown Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, devastated the lives of Oklahoma City residents in a way unlike any

other event in the history of the United States. I will focus my testimony on the impact the bombing had on Oklahoma City and why

the proposed legislation is so important to our city.

This legislation will not only benefit Oklahoma City, but it will

benefit all Americans. While this event occurred in Oklahoma City,

it was an attack on all Americans. It was an attack on all the people who believe in the principles of this nation. People from every

state in the Nation as well as thousands of people from outside the

United States have visited the memorial site. Hundreds of people

can be found at the site every day in all kinds of weather, at all

times of the day and night.

This event touched people not just in the United States, but

around the world. Thousands of items were sent to my office from

people from around the world. It has been over 2 years since the

bombing. Visitation and inquiries about the site have not declined.

Thousands of people visit the site weekly. More than a million people have visited the site since the bombing, leaving pieces of them

at the chain link fence that surrounds the building footprint. They

have left hundreds of thousands of items, including messages, toys,

flowers and shirts off their backs as they try to express their sympathy, their compassion and somehow understand that this could

have happened anywhere in the United States.

This legislation granting National Park status will recognize the

sacred nature of the site and its significance to all Americans. This

site of a tragic event has become a special place in our nation’s

identity. It cannot and not and should not be forgotten. This is why

the city strongly supports this legislation.

Other than the loss of life and the accompanying impact on the

lives of those touched by the loss, the bombing of the Alfred P.

Murrah Federal Building tore the heart out of our city. More than

300 structures were damaged and 12 buildings had to be demolished in the heart of our downtown. Rebuilding has been difficult

as property owners and tenants, forced out of the area by damage

to their properties, have been reluctant to reestablish in downtown

Oklahoma City. Many have not had the finances. Special funding

provided by Congress in 1995 has been absolutely vital to our rebuilding process. The recovery has been slow and there still remains a very visible hole in the city’s fabric.

The Oklahoma City Memorial, in conjunction with the passage of

this legislation, will do much to heal that hole. It sends a powerful

message to the people of Oklahoma City and to the Nation that the

healing process is well underway, and that investment in the renewal of downtown makes good economic and civic sense.

The redevelopment of several of the larger buildings most heavily

damaged by the bombing will now be possible. The city can also

begin planning for traffic control, parking, streetscape, sidewalk

improvements, directional signals, and other public improvements
25

required to cater to the restructured business district and visitors

to the site. Much of this planning has been on hold as the city and

the property owners have struggled with the task of making this

area whole again. That hold will be lifted by this legislation. Private investors who have been holding back until they know the future of the area can also begin their reconstruction plans.

The city strongly supports this legislation establishing the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust. It is vital to those most directly affected by the events of April 19, 1995, that the story of this

tragic event be managed locally. The Trust is the best vehicle for

doing so.

Let me say again the tragedy that befell Oklahoma City on April

19, 1995, was not a tragedy for all of us in Oklahoma, it was a

tragedy that affected the whole nation. The effect of that tragedy

is felt no less today, over 2 years later. It is only fitting that a tragedy of such national significance be recognized as such, and the

legislation I speak in support of here today provides that recognition. The city of Oklahoma City strongly supports this legislation

and we will be happy to do whatever is necessary to support its

passage.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The statement of Mr. Norick may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you for your testimony. Mr. Johnson?

STATEMENT OF ROBERT M. JOHNSON, CHAIRMAN, OKLAHOMA

CITY MEMORIAL FOUNDATION

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the

Committee. My name is Robert M. Johnson. I am Chairman of the

Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, serving as a volunteer pursuant to the June 1995 appointment by Mayor Ron Norick. I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today.

In April 1995, just days following the worst terrorist attack on

American soil, the President and Mrs. Clinton visited Oklahoma,

and while there they said, ‘‘All of you, the brave people of Oklahoma, made it clear to the entire nation and all the world that

those who sought deeds of terror to divide us brought us closer together.’’ And he said, ‘‘We will be by your side until the work is

done.’’

Just 1 month following the bombing, President Clinton told the

Nation that in the months ahead the Nation would look to Oklahoma for the vision and inspiration to appropriately memorialize

America’s tragedy.

In response, Mayor Norick appointed the 350-member Murrah

Federal Building Memorial Task Force, known today as the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation.

The Foundation embraced the challenge of memorializing a tragedy in America so unique in our history. We democratized the memorial process by making it open and inclusive. There have been

no political, socio-economic or other barriers to participation. Most

importantly, we have encouraged, solicited, and given great deference to participation by family members and survivors in all aspects of this memorial process. This memorial process has been

transforming and has contributed to the healing of our city, our

state, and our nation and, most importantly, to those most directly
26

affected by the bombing. As one family member has said: through

the memorial process chaos has been transformed into hope and

unity.

Incredibly, amidst all the emotions of the grieving process and

the healing process, all votes on critical issues have been unanimous, including the one in support of the Memorial Mission Statement, adopted after months of input from family members of survivors and other caring people around the world. The opening lines

of the Mission Statement are:

‘‘We come here to remember those who were killed, those

who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave

here know the impact of violence. May this Memorial offer

comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.’’

The Mission Statement requires that the Oklahoma City National Memorial consist of an interactive learning museum together

with an institute dedicated to the prevention and mitigation of terrorism and finally a remembrance component. This last element

was designed by Hans and Torrey Butzer and Sven Berg and was

selected through an open international design competition which

drew entries from all 50 states and 23 countries. This design was

chosen on the first secret ballot of the Selection Committee by

unanimous vote. It was subsequently approved by a joint meeting

of the Families and Survivors Committee and the Board of the

Foundation, again by unanimous vote.

By its very nature, as an attack on the American Government

and our public servants, the April 19, 1995, bombing was an attack

on each American. Although the bombing occurred in Oklahoma

City, by no means should this be memorialized as an Oklahoma

City tragedy or even a State of Oklahoma tragedy. The national

and international impact make it clear that this is an American

tragedy. Equally important is the Federal character of the site of

the attack and the significant number of those who died and the

survivors who were innocent Federal public servants.

The Oklahoma City National Memorial will memorialize America’s Tragedy by first preserving the memory of those who died and

the survivors and the valor of rescue and recovery workers, by emphatically confirming the unification of the spirit of all Americans

in the wake of disaster and by sending a powerful message to the

world of the senselessness of terrorism as a means of effecting societal or government change.

Let me clarify a couple of items regarding our contact with the

National Park Service. We are here today because in the input

process that led to the adoption of the Mission Statement, it was

very, very clear that the strong, strong sentiment was that no one

does it better in managing a memorial project than the National

Park Service. They must be involved. We contacted them in the

process. One of the co-chairs of our government liaison committee

contacted the Denver office of the Park Service in the process of developing the Intergovernmental Letter of Understanding, which

was executed in October of last year. The response from the Denver

office was that until the designation as a unit of the National Park

Service or other designation relating to the Park Service was made,

that the Park Service could not enter into a Letter of Understanding.
27

That contact, however, led us to an association with the National

Park Service to develop an archives program, which we are using,

with regard to the approximate one million items that we have in

our archives, that would make our archives collection suitable for

a unit of the National Park System and in compliance with the

guidelines for the National Park Service.

By no means have we ever thought about excluding the National

Park Service from this. We need them. And by no means should

there ever be a thought that there will not be a cooperative agreement. I pledged to the National Park Service that we would work

a cooperative agreement out, and have done so in both in conversations with them and by correspondence.

Following the development of the bill that was submitted earlier

to the Senate, I contacted John Cook in the Denver office of the National Park Service and discussed the personnel that would be involved. And we had correspondence in that regard. And we built

into our budget a supervisory interpreter, two interpreters, two

seasonal rangers, and a curator for the National Park Service, and

those numbers are built into our operating budget. We want the

Park Service to be involved. And I am confident that, given the bill

as it stands, I believe it is implicit that we would enter into an

agreement with them, and I commit to you that we would.

Let me just close by saying that although the response to the

Oklahoma City tragedy reminded the world that Americans are capable of great compassion, selflessness and unity when tragedy

strikes, by no means is our response complete. We ask for your participation in this memorialization effort by enacting H.R. 1849.

Thank you.

[The statement of Mr. Johnson may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Mr. Butzer?

STATEMENT OF HANS E. BUTZER, DESIGNER, OKLAHOMA CITY

MEMORIAL FOUNDATION DESIGN TEAM

Mr. BUTZER. Thank you. Torrey Butzer—my wife—myself and

our design assistant, Sven Berg, who is still in Berlin, thank you

very much for the opportunity to present this design to you.

Torrey and I will never forget the morning we heard on Voice of

America radio while we were working in Berlin, that the Alfred P.

Murrah Building in Oklahoma City had been bombed. Although we

were an ocean away, we felt shocked that such a tragedy could

occur on American soil. We also believed it to be our duty to make

some sort of contribution to the recovery efforts.

The design we are presenting to you today is based primarily on

the introductory paragraph of the Memorial Foundation’s Mission

Statement:

‘‘We come here to remember those who were killed, those

who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave

here know the impact of violence. May this memorial offer

comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.’’

With these words, the experience of visiting the Oklahoma City

Memorial begins. Whether traveling along Harvey, Robinson or

Fifth Street, the first site of the Memorial Complex is of the gates

of time. Within the urban fabric, these gates provide a powerful

identity for the Memorial Complex and clearly indicate that this
28

portion of Fifth Street has been closed forever. The Eastern gate

and its interior sign is inscribed with the time ‘‘9:01’’, and on the

inside wall of the Western Gate is inscribed ‘‘9:03.’’ These two gates

together frame the moment and place of this terrible explosion, the

time ‘‘9:02.’’

The gates also serve as physical and psychological transitions

from the busy city streets to a meditative landscape rich with soft

edges and sounds.

Beneath the outside gate’s wall inscription ‘‘we come here to remember,’’ one is drawn through the gates into the heart of the moment eager to tell its story.

The footprint of the former Alfred P. Murrah Building to the

South is covered with soft green grass, sloping up toward the

warmth of the sun. One hundred and sixty eight empty chairs

down this grassy slope where the building once stood, reminding us

of those who died. While the tragedy has affected the community

and nation as a whole, the 168 individual chairs will remind us of

the personal loss which resulted on April 19, 1995.

The chairs’ presence will ensure that future generations of Americans will always remember these members of our community.

These chairs are constructed of a stone seat and back, mounted

atop a glass block base which is inscribed with a victim’s name. By

day, these chairs appear to float above their translucent base, just

as our memories of their loved ones seem to float past at any given

moment. By night, these glass bases will be illuminated, representing beacons of hope which lighten the night sky.

The Survivor Tree, witness to the violence of the moment, stands

to the North commemorating those who survived. Under its canopy,

grassy terraces step down in contrast to the sloping field of 168

chairs beyond. Here, survivors may sit and find inspiration to live

their lives more meaningfully and better appreciate the freedoms

they as survivors still enjoy.

Rushing forth from the city’s edges to surround the Survivor

Tree is an orchard of blossoming fruit trees which recognize those

who helped. Symbolic in their bearing of fruit, these trees allude

to the continuing life cycle of those rescued and their future generations. The harvesting of the fruit in the fall would become the

focus of an annual celebration honoring those who helped as well

as those who were rescued.

Nestled in the northwestern corner of the site, the orchard, is a

special place for the little helpers—the children. A series of chalkboards set in the ground represents the many letters and drawings

the children sent in support and they provide a place for them to

continue expressing their thoughts and encouragement.

At the center of this three-acre site, a long reflecting pool spans

what was once Fifth Street. The sounds of gently flowing water

provide a peaceful background to visitors’ thoughts. During the hot

summer, the pool will provide cool relief. In winter, its surface may

freeze, reflecting the warm glow of the empty chairs. Dark reflective stone will line the pool’s surface, making it difficult to see the

pool bottom. Water will flow over the edges and disappear into a

thin channel running around the perimeter of the pool.

And it is here, at the water’s edge, that the areas of the empty

chairs, the Survivor Tree and its terraces, the fruit tree and its or-
29

chard, where these areas meet. And as visitors from all over the

world gaze into the pool at their own reflections, they will see the

faces of those changed forever.

As you can see from our response, this event has touched the

world. It is our hope that the world will be able to come to the site

of this event and gain an understanding of what happened at 9:02

on April 19th. I respectfully urge your support of H.R. 1849, the

bill to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of

the National Park System and designating the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust.

Thank you.

[The statement of Mr. Butzer may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Butzer. Mr. Faleomavaega? Any

questions?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The gentleman from Minnesota——

Mr. VENTO. Maybe you could recognize him first.

Mr. HANSEN. Fine. I will be happy to recognize the gentleman

from Minnesota.

Mr. VENTO. I do not want to take away any time—I have to

leave, Mr. Chairman. I want to direct my comments to you concerning this proposal. I do not doubt—I commend the Mayor for the

quick action of the Task Force and so forth. Mr. Johnson, I listened

to your comments with regard to the Park Service issue. It obviously has come up unexpected. I did not mean to do that today either, so I am not very——

I just hope that you realize I was trying to ask questions, but I

raised these questions in good faith. No one prompted me to do

this. It certainly comes out of the background in terms of having

worked with these topics. So, many other questions with concession

policies, commercial applications, fundraising efforts onsite. And

most of those—if we are going to convey these types of responsibility to the corporation, that we just do not know. It is not an entity that we do not—it is unknown to us and we do not know about

this. So, I think we are concerned about it.

So, I hope that this Memorandum of Understanding, the final

policies, should—because you have got to have some sort of accountability. I understand that somebody else is raising all the

money, why should the Park Service tell you what to do? I mean,

that is really I think what the—part of the issue here is. But where

we feel uncomfortable, at least I do and I think many Members,

but nobody wants to—we all want to support this, but we need to

have some assurance in terms of these policies that evolve. We

know that in the context of the laws that we have, the laws regarding memorials and their construction, designation, maintenance—

obviously that is apparently not acceptable to some. I would hope

that would be the first instance.

But beside that I think we need—we at least need at least some

assurance that the Park Service when they get the Memorandum

of Agreement here, that in fact they will have something to say

about the general management plan.

On the other issues, I know that you employed the state historic

preservation office—at least I assume it was the state historic preservation office, the Oklahoma Historical Society, in reference to one

of the——
30

I have read this material now and I have these questions. And

I think that they need to be answered before you move from the

Subcommittee, Mr. Chairman, to the full Committee. And I do not

know that—I do not mean to—I understand that you are going to

mark it up, and you perhaps were not aware that these questions

had been raised. They have been, so I ask you to consider that before you—I think it would be a better time to do this before we

move it along——

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to leave. I am

going to excuse myself. Thank you.

Mr. HANSEN. The gentleman from Colorado?

Mr. HEFLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that it is an

enormous memorial to Oklahoma and to Oklahoma City, the way

you move about this task of coming to this point. Not only the way

you dealt with the tragedy in time and the way you deal with—

Mr. Mayor, I think it is a tribute to your leadership that this has

moved with the smoothness and as fast as it has. And, Mr. Johnson, you have taken on an enormous task, and you are to be commended as well.

I think the design concept is, and the way it is described and the

way we see it in the pictures, it looks like a wonderful design and

concept. Who am I to criticize the design concept? But I think you

may have missed—or maybe you have not and I have just overlooked it—and that is one of the signs of loss, which this commemorates I think very well, that ought to be commemorated here is the

bravery of the firefighters. Every firefighter who entered that

building was taking their life in their hands. There were lives lost

trying to pull this rescue—I remember that the nurse, for instance,

that was lost. And I also remember the very dramatic pictures of

the fireman with the little baby coming out.

At the Vietnam Memorial, the wall is the focal point, but there

is a marvelous sculpture commemorating those young soldiers who

fought in Vietnam, which is beside the wall. And I wonder if, Mr.

Butzer, if any consideration was given to a sculpture memorial to

those firefighters, from not just Oklahoma but around the country,

who risked their lives in that rescue effort. Was there any—or is

there something here that I am not seeing?

Mr. BUTZER. For us the issue came down to an all-encompassing

notion of those who helped. And my wife and I have always considered this orchard, which is surrounding—and that to the right side,

which in effect comes around from the streets’ edges and surrounds

the Survival Tree. We have always termed that as the ‘‘Orchard of

Helpers.’’ And this orchard, and its fruitbearing nature, is for us

a very clear indication of the appreciation shown to, among those,

the firefighters, the medical and police people from all over the nation, to indicate how important their role was in the rescue efforts.

Mr. HEFLEY. I think that is a perfectly good approach to it all,

although it is a bit subtle. And unless someone has an interpreter

there to interpret that, most people who see the orchard will not

understand that. Or maybe there would be a plaque or something

that will tell it. And I wonder if you give the—those brave people

who went into that building the—Mr. Johnson, you can comment.
31

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Mr. Hefley, we will be developing an interactive learning museum in the building just on the north side of

the remembrance site, and in that museum one of the focal points

that is very important to us is to underscore the valor of the rescue

and recovery effort. And it was an incredible effort of public and

private sector combined that you saw in the days following the

bombing, and that is where it will be told in detail.

Mr. HEFLEY. Well, I have always thought that the firefighters,

and I see your Fire Chief is here, but that the firefighters had the

most dangerous public service jobs in America, more dangerous

than the police, although I do not take away from that. When a

firefighter—walk in that building and they go and risk their lives,

and certainly this—every night on television it was depicted the

bravery of these people. And I just want to make sure you do not

overlook them, and I am sure you would not. You have shown enormous sensitivity in everything that you have done. So. But I just

wanted to make that point. Thank you.

Mr. HANSEN. Mr. Faleomavaega?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, I

think you know what seems to be the single issue here before

you—the proposed legislation. I do not think there is any question

in anybody’s mind on both sides. One of them—according to what

our friends from the National Park Service indicated earlier, they

are kind of bent out of joint by this. It seems like they were not

part of the process. And as—by the gentleman from Minnesota, the

concern about the trust, based on—you are asking for a $5 million

authorization as part of the process, extension of funds for this purpose? I would like your comments about the concerns that the National Park Service has indicated earlier. Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. I would be pleased to respond. Let me say first

that in the development of the Memorial Mission Statement, again,

we made it clear that the strong sentiment was that this memorial

should be operated by the National Park Service. It should be a

National Memorial because of all the reasons mentioned. In the

months that followed the adoption of the Mission Statement in

March 1996, there was increasing press coverage of the budgetary

dilemma of the Parks System. The most recent article that I have

seen was in the August 29th issue of ‘‘U.S.A. Today’’ where they

alluded to possibly needing $8 billion to cure the difficulties. And

the point of the article is consistent with others that I have seen,

and this is by no means criticism of management of the Park System. The best managers cannot do their job without the funds do

so. But the article made it clear that the public will either need to

lower its expectations of the quality of maintenance of the National

Park units, or Congress will need to appropriate more money,

which is unlikely, or the Park System must find new revenue

sources, and those may include combines with local communities

and other entities outside the lines of the model that has been used

for units of the National Park System in the past.

We have attempted to do that. We could have come here with our

hands held out and saying: this is a terrible tragedy and we want

you to pay for it. But we have intentionally avoided doing that. We

want this memorial to have a widespread public participation, and
32

therefore widespread public ownership. We can only do that if the

private sector bears the brunt of the cost.

So, what we are asking for in light of the increasing attention to

the budgetary dilemma of the Park System is give us a combine

that perhaps can be a model for other units, although our focus is

simply on ours. Give us a model that allows these things to happen. We can assure compliance with the guidelines of the National

Park System. That is first and foremost on our list. We are not

going to build a world-class National Memorial and then not maintain it, as they have been able to maintain units in the past.

Give us a model that allows us to retain money that may be generated from visitation fees, which we would like to avoid, but the

reality is it probably will be a necessity, unless our endowment

fundraising exceeds our expectations. But allow us to retain those

funds for this project for future maintenance and enhancement and

give us a model that allows both the Park System and those who

have worked so hard and developed such a sense of ownership in

this, particularly families and survivors, to both participate, neither to the exclusion of the other. And we think we can do that.

It is not clear from the Bill, as Ms. Finnerty has pointed out,

that a cooperative agreement is required. Absolutely there will be

one. There must be one. And by no means is this a project where

we may ask them to be involved. Never have we said that we

would do anything other than ask them to please be a part of this

project.

So, we think this satisfies all of those requirements. It gives us

the ability to perhaps maintain it at a level higher than would be

the case with the Park System, and yet involves both collaboration

of the private sector and the Park System in management.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Mayor.

Mr. NORICK. Yes, I do. I think that, as was said earlier in the

discussions, we knew that really the National Park Service was the

right entity for us to model and to operate this memorial, because

this is a memorial, and more than just to Oklahoma City. This is

a memorial of a nation for the Federal employees. And it would not

be fair if they were not involved, because this really is part of the

national fabric. And I feel comfortable that within the legislation—

I just—there is one very brief statement on page 12 of the bill that

says: within 1 year after the enactment of this Act, the trust, in

consultation with the Secretary, who is the Secretary of the Interior, shall develop a comprehensive program for management of

those lands, operation of facilities within the memorial established

by this Act.

I mean, that right there is a clear understanding that we want

to be a part of working in cooperative agreement, that it will only

operate efficiently when both parties agree to the operation. We

want the help the Federal budget by providing those funds privately and the operation of that fund. That is the reason this Act—

this bill only calls for a one-time appropriation. And with that I

think it is imperative this trust does have operational control. If

you will also note in the law also that it—that the President of the

United States is the one that appoints the members of this trust.

Their names are submitted by various entities in the State of Okla-
33

homa, but the President of the United States has the overall ability

to appoint the members of that trust, and that obviously shows

that we want the Federal Government heavily involved in this.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mayor. We will vote and come back, the

last time. Excuse me, gentlemen. The gentlemen from Oklahoma?

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, once again, Mr.

Johnson, will you discuss for just a few moments the financial

background on this proposal?

Mr. JOHNSON. The budget for the remembrance component, the

outdoor area that is the subject of the designs as described, is approximately $10 million. The budget for the interactive learning

museum in the building just to the north of the remembrance component is approximately $7 million. We are also committed to raising approximately $5 million to permanently endow the institute

that I spoke of. We will also be providing an archives facility at approximately $600,000. And all of that taken together with foundation expenses give us a budget of approximately $24 million.

Our plan for the raising of that $24 million has nothing to do

with where we are today. The $5 million we are asking of you will

be created as a partial endowment for operation and maintenance.

We will be asking the state for $5 million of the $24 million and

the balance, the $19 million, will be coming from the private sector,

three of which has been raised today.

Mr. LUCAS. So, the way you describe the situation, it will create

a situation where the Park Service would not have to have an additional annual operating sum appropriated by this Congress and

that the funds that would be generated from this financial effort

would also pay for the Park Service presence as envisioned in—

statement and the various entities, including the Park Service?

Mr. JOHNSON. It basically pays for the Park Service presence if

we use the six personnel that have been suggested by the Denver

office: the supervisory interpreter, two interpreters, two seasonal

rangers, and curator. The estimated compensation for those six is

$260,000 a year. If we use that, then the $5 million, you would be

taking a 7 percent yield on that from the endowment that would

give us $350,000 a year. So, we are only asking the Federal Government for about $100,000 in operating income interest on that

endowment a year in addition to the Park Service personnel costs.

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you. I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I congratulate the Mayor on leadership he has shown through the tragedy and since then, for the way the community has worked and

pulled together. Of course, the architect, what is your design. If I

could in my final seconds ask Mr. Johnson if we would care to address any of the comments made by—put together with the

time——

Mr. JOHNSON. I do not think there is—I would hope no one will

leave here today thinking that anyone with the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation or anyone else involved in this memorial has

made an effort to exclude the National Park Service. To the extent

of our involvement, we certainly have not. We have sought their assistance. We will continue to do so. And I will underscore the comment I made before, and that is we need them involved. They know

how to do this and we want them involved.
34

I think this model gives the Federal Government—a wholly

owned government corporation gives the Federal Government more

control than if it is the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation working with the National Park Service. The down side is not great. If

this does not work, you created it, it is a single-purpose limited-activity agency, in essence, and you can unwind it. But we have every

reason to believe that it is feasible, it will work, and hopefully we

will see that it will work on other projects.

Mr. LUCAS. And as you would note, Mr. Chairman, a huge

amount of effort and time and personal resources and very

thoughtful planning and research has gone into this effort. I assure

you this has not been a casual thrown-together bill. This entire effort has been put together with the detail that you have heard from

this panel today.

Mr. HANSEN. Well, I believe you said that the cooperation is awesome, the cooperation of the people of Oklahoma, the Mayor, the

Federal Government. I appreciate what you said about the process,

and they are good at that. You do a good job. I have to say there

are a few little points I would like to see—and also that Mr.

Hefley—I guess most of us were just entranced with this. It is like

the Persian Gulf War, where you were just affixed on the television

sets when this occurred, and you have to say that the—those who

went in did a tremendous job of pulling out the survivors—memorial somewhere, because that was an unbelievable effort. I want to

compliment the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, for putting

this together and then trying to bring—some armed services——

And you should be complimented on that. We have got one other

great panel here that I would like to hear what you have to say,

but we are all running out of time. So, I—will turn the chair over

to him, and we will quickly run over and try to vote, take care, and

be back as fast as we can. But if you will continue going, I would

appreciate it.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. [presiding] Mr. Chairman, I would like to

compliment the gentleman from Oklahoma for his sponsorship of

this legislation. And the record is clear, contrary to what we have

heard earlier, that there was close consultation with the Denver office, and for a reason suggested a number of Park Service staffing

and expertise that——

Well, thank you, gentleman for your testimony. We would like to

proceed now with our next panel.

For the record, Mr. Welch, a Oklahoma City resident; Mr. Don

Rogers, the former Building Manager at the Murrah Federal Building; and Mr. Gary Marrs, the Fire Chief for the city of Oklahoma.

Mr. Welch, would you like to proceed?

STATEMENT OF EMMETT E. ‘‘BUD’’ WELCH, RESIDENT,

OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA

Mr. WELCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. I am Bud Welch. My 23-year-old daughter, Julie Marie

Welch, was killed April 19, 1995, in the Murrah Building bombing.

Julie had graduated from Bishop McGuiness High School in 1990

after being a foreign exchange student with Youth for Understanding. She lived with a family in Pontevedra, Galicia, Spain, for

1 year between her sophomore and junior years in high school.
35

She received a foreign language scholarship from Marquette University in Milwaukee and entered school there in August 1990.

Julie spent her sophomore year in college in Madrid at

Marquette’s campus in conjunction with the University of Madrid

in Spain. She received her degree in Spanish from Marquette with

a minor in French and Italian. Upon Julie’s death, Julie spoke

Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, English and knew enough

German to travel. And she actually spoke a little bit of—also,

which is my second language. She had graduated from Marquette

University in 1994.

Julie was the Spanish translator for Social Security. I brought

Julie back to Oklahoma City over the Fourth of July weekend in

1994. That was our last long travel together. She was employed by

Social Security the following month. She was hired under the Federal Government Honors Program.

Julie Marie was my only daughter, my pal, my confidant and my

friend.

I was to meet Julie at 11:30 that fateful Wednesday morning for

our weekly luncheon at the Athenian Greek Restaurant across the

street from the Murrah Building. This is west of the Survivor Tree.

It became very important that the old faithful American Elm,

now known as the ‘‘Survivor Tree,’’ be included in the planned Memorial. That was Julie’s favorite place to park and this tree survived the blast that so many people did not. The dead have since

been buried, the survivors have been relocated, and it is the only

living thing left there.

Working closely with the Memorial Foundation has helped me

tremendously in my healing. I look forward to that continuing with

the dialog with strangers once our new beautiful Memorial is built.

I believe it should be a National Memorial with a National Park

status:

The majority of the victims were Federal public servants.

They died in service of their country.

The crime happened on Federal property and stemmed from

what some believed were problems with Federal policies.

The people of this nation and the people of the world expect

the United States of America to recognize this as a National

Memorial.

I base that on the thousands of cards, letters and telephone calls

that I have received from more than 30 foreign countries, every

province in Canada and also the territories of Canada, and every

State in the Union.

Let us please do not let the world down. I urge you to support

H.R. 1849 to establish the Oklahoma City National Monument and

designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust.

We will build the memorial regardless of how this legislation

turns out. We want the blessing of the U.S. House of Representatives, Senate, and the President of the United States. That is the

main reason that we are here. We want Federal recognition.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity. I would be happy

to answer any questions at this time. In fact, I would encourage

questions. Thank you very much.

[The statement of Mr. Welch may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Welch. Mr. Rogers?
36

STATEMENT OF DON ROGERS, FORMER BUILDING MANAGER,

A.P. MURRAH FEDERAL BUILDING, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA

Mr. ROGERS. I wish to thank Congressman Frank Lucas and the

Members of this Committee for allowing me to testify on an issue

I feel so strongly about.

I am Don Rogers, Manager of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal

Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. I am a survivor of

the bombing, injured in the building on the first floor near the center of the building.

I would like to tell you part of my story, which occurred on a

date that so many of us will never forget:

The moment the bomb detonated, I was standing near the elevator lobby, just having completed a meeting which was held in my

office (situated against the glass wall where the Ryder truck was

parked). I had walked out into the hall after the meeting to have

a side discussion with Robert Dennis, Court Clerk of the U.S. District Court. Quickly we were engulfed in total darkness—unable to

see or breathe. I was choking for air when I came to the realization

that someone was calling my name. Somewhat confused and unable

to see, I reached toward the direction of the voice. In doing so I was

able to grasp Bob’s arm. Together we climbed over the debris trying to reach safety. It was as if we were crawling through a cave,

except there was no air to breathe nor light to see. Beginning to

feel somewhat ‘‘entombed’’, we became determined to find a way

out. While we were attempting to get out of the building, Bob and

I rescued two other ladies, Dot Hill and Pam Lacy. We were able

to help them and we found a way through the rubble to the west

side of the building.

We quickly realized that things were not much better outside of

the building. The north half of the building had been blown inward;

a large gaping hole was all that remained of that portion. On the

street approximately twenty-five cars were on fire. I was confused

as to what could have possibly occurred to cause such damage. Realization hit me again with the impact of a blast, that I was immediately concerned for the children in daycare and the tenants in the

building that I was responsible for managing.

I ran to the south of the building to gain entry and found men

using makeshift ladders from the playground fences to climb into

the building, trying to rescue those inside. The east stairwell was

blocked by rubble so I could not continue to higher floors, so I went

back to the plaza level. Looking upward I tried to determine the

best approach I could, when I saw a man pinned against the inner

south wall, hanging out of the building. The top of his head was

missing, the lower portion of his body was completely crushed, yet

he raised his head asking for assistance: ‘‘Help me. Please help

me.’’ A moment later his life was gone. The Federal workers trying

to pull him free realized that their efforts were in vain. Nothing

could be done. Although my eyes were full of smoke and dust and

debris, I have a clear memory of viewing this man’s losing struggle

with death.

Members of the Fire Department were arriving to assist in the

rescue efforts already under way. Again I attempted to enter the

building in an effort to find employees and children. The fire-
37

fighters saw me and insisted that I needed medical attention for

my eyes and my multiple lacerations.

I was treated at the local hospital that day, released in the afternoon, and returned to the building to help the rescue workers

search for survivors and assist in identifying bodies. I remember

thinking that this could not be the same building that I had

worked for 19 years. It was difficult to identify anything. It seemed

as though we were going down into a large cavern with debris

heaped up on the ground and hanging down from the ceiling.

I remember seeing one body that did not resemble a person; it

was a mass of flesh and material embedded in rocks and crevices.

The fireman with me at the time told me that this was a lady

wearing a black dress imprinted with roses. I remembered that I

had seen this woman as she stepped off the elevator, walking past

me and toward the front doors just moments before the blast.

The reason for telling my story today is that there are a thousand other stories to be told by the rescue workers, survivors, firemen, policemen, and medical personnel.

The innocent laughter of the children nor their footsteps (as well

as that of my friends and coworkers) will never be heard again.

Life’s evening sun has set for 168 Americans, which will not rise

again on this earth. The contributions of these individuals to their

families and communities, local churches and civic groups were

ended before any of them had the opportunity to do great things.

However, each one of them was considered ‘‘great’’ by family and

friends, thus resulting in a great loss to our nation.

We wish to let the world know that violent acts must be prevented. The proposed memorial would provide hope that future violent acts of this magnitude can be prevented and serve as a reminder of how people can (and should) reach out and care for one

another with compassion.

We, as a nation, as a society, governed by the citizens, feel an

urgency to construct an appropriate memorial in order to remember the value of those who perished (infants, children, sisters and

brothers, parents, grandparents) the strength of the human spirit,

and the loss of innocence experienced by America on that day.

And unless we establish this memorial as a national monument

to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those

who were changed forever, plus provide a place for people to gain

an understanding of the impact of violence, and also provide a

place which offers comfort, strength, peace, and hope, the affliction

of this American tragedy will be unresolved.

Thank you very much.

[The statement of Mr. Rogers may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Marrs?

STATEMENT OF GARY B. MARRS, FIRE CHIEF, OKLAHOMA

CITY, OKLAHOMA

Mr. MARRS. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I

am Gary Marrs, the Fire Chief for the Oklahoma City Fire Department. On behalf of the more than 1,000 firefighters in Oklahoma

City and those from 43 fire departments and a large number of law

enforcement agencies that came from near and far to help in the
38

rescue and recovery efforts, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today.

As you know, at 9:02 a.m. on April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City was

the target of a senseless act of terrorism. Within a few seconds all

of our lives were changed forever. The tragic loss of life and the

countless injuries were devastating to our community.

Seconds after the bombing, a massive response of public safety

agencies, health care providers and the general public occurred.

The first arriving fire department personnel from Station 1 were

faced with an overwhelming rescue operation. Buildings were damaged over a 60-square block area and a large number of vehicles

were on fire. Major structural damage occurred not only in the Federal Building, but in a 26-story 400-unit apartment building, a sixstory office building, a three-story office building, a two-story building with a restaurant and a basement across the street, and in several buildings in a four-block area.

As we approached the scene, we began encountering debris in the

road several blocks away from the Murrah Federal Building site.

Firefighters began walking in front of the apparatus to move the

debris out of the roadway. In addition, they began to encounter injured people walking away from the blast. A number of our units

began to immediately treat injured survivors and quickly realized

that there were going to be hundreds more.

Dozens of rescue and recovery workers formed human chains as

we began to pass victims from the building into the street. All of

the individuals rescued alive from the Murrah Federal Building

and the surrounding structures were rescued on that first day

within the first 12 hours of the operation. Many of the rescues accomplished that day by Oklahoma City firefighters and the hundreds who assisted them would have been dramatic events if they

had happened individually. The fact that they occurred as part of

an incident of this magnitude overshadowed the hundreds of individual acts of professionalism, and in many cases heroism, that occurred that Wednesday in April and the days that followed.

FEMA workers and 11 Urban Search and Rescue Task Force

teams came to Oklahoma City with hope they could help us find

more survivors and to help all of us. Today, spread out across the

United States, each rescuer has an understanding that this event

was not just an Oklahoma event—it was an event that touched the

nation. It has reached coast to coast.

The outpouring from people was unbelievable. From the wheelbarrows filled with ice and drinks, to a national pizza chain onsite

serving more than 10,000 free pizzas, to a supply room filled with

everything from bandannas to rain suits to batteries. We would ask

for something and people would bring it to the site. People donated

clothes, food, equipment, and supplies in record numbers to support

the rescue operations. If a request for some specialized service was

made, such as veterinarians for the search dogs, the response was

immediate and overwhelming. More than 1,000 cellular telephones

were handed out free to emergency personnel and all the air time

was donated by the companies.

Establishing a National Park on the site of this attack is appropriate to honor the victims, the survivors, and the rescue and re-
39

covery workers and to show the world the shining example of how

a community can come together to rise above adversity.

As Oklahoma City Police Chaplain Jack Poe has said since the

bombing, the ‘‘Oklahoma Standard’’ means a new level of caring.

The Oklahoma City National Memorial will do just that. Mr. Chairman, again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to represent

all of the brave men and women who worked for 18 days under impossible circumstances on behalf of our community and our nation.

[The statement of Mr. Marrs may be found at end of hearing.]

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Gentlemen, I cannot find any words in the

English language equal to what you have said this morning. Without question our nation was moved with compassion and sympathy

for those individuals and innocent children who suffered——

I sincerely hope this legislation will move forward with constructive suggestions from our friends in the National Park Service and

the Administration, and that we will proceed toward passage of

this bill. And I think it is only appropriate that I would like to take

time now for a statement from Oklahomans who sponsored this

bill.

Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Committee committing to sit through the Committee hearing on this

bill and I apologize to the panel for not being here for the whole

discussion——

Clearly what you have seen and done in connection with this

tragic event are the kinds of things that no one should ever have

to see or ever have to do. It is reassuring to know that in our society, in Oklahoma, across the nation, that people under the most

horrible circumstances can rise to the occasion to do what is necessary to help their fellow human beings. And that in many ways

you have helped restore my beliefs in my personal—my faith in my

fellow human beings and in humanity. And I personally appreciate

you coming today to discuss what you went through and what you

have gone through and what you are going through, because it

means so much, I believe, to the message that H.R. 1849 has

drawn across this country.

And for that, thank you. I know it was not easy to prepare and

I know it was not easy delivering your testimony. I must say this

to the Committee and for the record: I truly believe that this piece

of legislation in its original is not only the best intentions of everyone involved but the most careful and deliberate planning and

thought, with hands extended to everyone in an effort to do what

is right, not only for those 168 folks who lost their lives that day

and in the days and hours afterwards, but also for the rescuers and

every one who had a physical part in the process, then and in the

recovery——

So with that, Mr. Chairman, I would simply want to state for the

record that I appreciate the opportunity to set up all these panels.

I truly appreciate the Subcommittee’s willingness to hear the testimony and hold a hearing on H.R. 1849. And I would certainly respectfully urge the Subcommittee and the full Committee to perform the mark up at the earliest opportune moment.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
40

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I thank the gentleman for his comments

and again, on behalf of the Chairman of the Subcommittee—I

thank you, gentlemen. The hearing is adjourned.

[The photographs may be found at end of hearing.]

[The Letter of Understanding may be found at end of hearing.]

[The Memorial Mission Statement may be found at end of hearing.]

[Whereupon, at 1 p.m. the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

[Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
41

STATEMENT OF MAUREEN FINNERTY, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, PARK OPERATIONS AND

EDUCATION, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity

to appear before you to address H.R. 1849, a bill to establish the Oklahoma City

National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System and to create a government corporation known as the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust to manage the memorial. First and foremost, let me say that we support the goal of establishing the

memorial as a unit of the National Park System. The significance of the tragedy

of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and

the meaning and implications of this event for our nation, compel the establishment

of this memorial as a visible and prominent national shrine. While we support the

establishment of this memorial, we have significant concerns over certain aspects

of its management as proposed in H.R. 1849 and strongly recommend an alternative

management arrangement. In raising these concerns, we share the sponsors’ goals

for expeditiously creating an excellent, well-managed national memorial that appropriately communicates and reflects the meaning of the Oklahoma City bombing to

the nation.

If enacted, H.R. 1849 would create a new unit of the National Park System in

Oklahoma City—a memorial to recognize the profound changes brought to so many

lives the morning of April 19, 1995. The legislation would direct the National Park

Service, upon the request of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, to provide technical assistance to the Trust and, along with other Federal agencies, to carry out

day-to-day visitor service programs at the memorial.

After the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building, President Clinton declared a national day of mourning for the victims of the bombing. He asked the people of the United States to pray for the victims and the community when they gathered in their places of worship. The President also traveled to Oklahoma City on

that Sunday to participate in a memorial service for the bombing victims. At the

service, the President personally thanked all those who worked heroically to save

lives and he pledged to do all he could to help heal the injured, and to rebuild the

city. The President promised to stand by the people of Oklahoma City for as long

as it took. Creating a permanent memorial for the victims of the bombing helps fulfill the spirit of that pledge.

After the Oklahoma City bombing, citizens throughout the Nation expressed their

solidarity in many ways. Along with the national day of mourning and the rededication of public servants to their calling, personal mementos were left, and continue

to be left at the site of the bombing. Through mayoral and citizen action, the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation was established to create an appropriate memorial

on the site. The Foundation has done a tremendous job of involving the public, defining its mission and goals, and holding a design competition for the memorial.

Building upon these local efforts is the legislation introduced by the Oklahoma delegation.

While the circumstances compelling the establishment of a national memorial to

the Oklahoma City tragedy as a unit of the National Park System are extraordinary, the approach to managing this memorial should benefit from proven National Park Service models. Because the National Park Service was not part of the

process that developed the Intergovernmental Letter of Understanding, dated October 28, 1996, we could not provide our suggestions at that time. We appreciate the

opportunity provided by the legislative process to share our views now about the

most appropriate and effective role for each organization and governmental entity

involved in the memorial.

Mr. Chairman, we support the objective that this new unit of the National Park

System be managed and administered in close cooperation with, and with the full

involvement of, local citizens and entities. As proposed, however, the legislation provides no role to the National Park Service in the management or administration of

this new park unit unless the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust requests its involvement for certain limited purposes. Essentially, the legislation provides complete control over this new park unit to the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, a wholly-owned

government corporation. This management approach raises several concerns and

should be re-evaluated in light of other proven approaches which incorporate substantial local involvement and utilize public/private partnerships for specific purposes.

One significant issue for reconsideration is the establishment of the Oklahoma

City Memorial Trust as a wholly-owned government corporation. In a 1995 report

prepared by the Congressional Research Service for the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, a government corporation was defined as ‘‘an agency of the government, established by Congress to perform a public purpose, which provides a
42

market-oriented service and produces revenue that meets or approximates its expenditures.’’ The transmittal letter from the Committee stated that ‘‘government

corporations are an appropriate option only when certain conditions are present,

such as a sustainable, commercial-type revenue stream, and that the misuse of the

corporate concept can actually result in a weakened capacity of the executive branch

to meet its statutory requirements and the capability of Congress to hold agencies

accountable for their activities and financial obligations.’’

The only example of the use of a government corporation in the National Park

System is the Presidio Trust, established by legislation enacted last November. The

Presidio of San Francisco presented a tremendous management challenge. The military transferred an enormous complex with many buildings to the National Park

Service. In that case, the National Park Service needed the expertise of people familiar with business and real estate in the city of San Francisco who could effectively lease buildings and provide other mechanisms to assure that the Presidio’s

buildings were protected. While entrepreneurial revenue-generating goals are appropriate for the Presidio, we question whether they are as appropriate for the memorial.

It was clear to us from the testimony given at the field hearing in Oklahoma City

that it is the wish of local citizens and the State of Oklahoma to retain a strong

level of local control and involvement in all aspects of the memorial’s operation and

interpretation. We believe that the legislation could best achieve this by directing

the National Park Service to manage the memorial in cooperation with the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, which could operate without the Federal restrictions that would be imposed on a government corporation. The general guidance for

this cooperative effort could be outlined in legislation, and the specific aspects of the

partnership developed through cooperative and interagency agreements.

We would be pleased to provide examples of public laws for existing National

Park System units which involve partnerships with municipal or private institutions, as well as examples of cooperative and interagency agreements at existing

National Park System units. Clearly, there is a need for the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation to continue in its role as fundraiser for the construction of the memorial and to establish an endowment to ensure the continued maintenance and

preservation of the memorial. We believe that many existing National Park System

units can serve as legislative models for a partnership which would include the

Foundation, as well as Federal, State and local agencies.

We commend Congressman Lucas, and the other members of the Oklahoma delegation in their efforts to appropriately memorialize the lives of the innocent victims

of the Oklahoma City bombing. We look forward to working closely with the delegation and the Committee staff in developing a legislative concept which will work

well for the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, the National Park Service, and

all of those who have been affected by this tragic event.

That completes my remarks Mr. Chairman. I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have.

STATEMENT OF JOHN POULAND, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, GENERAL SERVICES

ADMINISTRATION

Mr. Chainnan and Members of the Committee:

My name is John Pouland, Regional Administrator of the General Services Administration (GSA) for the Greater Southwest Region which includes Oklahoma. I

am pleased to appear before you today in support of House bill H.R. 1849, and its

Senate counterpart S. 871, bills to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial

and to designate the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust. The Alfred P.

Murrah Federal Building was part of the GSA; inventory and the legislation directs

GSA to transfer the building site to the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust.

On April 19, 1995, a vicious attack on the Government killed 168 people, including 19 children, and destroyed the Murrah Federal Office Building in Oklahoma

City, Oklahoma. Nobody who has heard about this senseless act of terrorism, seen

the horrible pictures of human suffering and total destruction, or was in any other

way personally affected by this tragedy will ever forget that day. We will always

remember where we were when the news shocked the Nation and the world. Recent

events such as the McVeigh trial and the sentencing caused us all to relive those

tragic moments and listen to the heartwrenching stories of the survivors and the

victims’ families. Who will ever be able to erase the pictures of the small child in

the arms of the firefighter etched into our minds and hearts forever?

I am here today, to support an effort which will help the people of Oklahoma and

the rest of the Nation to continue the healing process. As the President stated dur-
43

ing the Ceremony on behalf of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation last month,

‘‘The Memorial design is elegant. It is symbolic. It manages to focus on this act of

unconscionable violence and still honor the valor of the people of the community and

the lives of the victims in a setting of reflection and peace that should leave people,

when they go through it, feeling stronger rather than weaker.’’

The people of the General Services Administration were personally affected by the

suffering, involved in the rescue and emergency management efforts and assisted

in the re-establishment of operational capabilities. Now we are proud to help with

the healing process. The Murrah Federal Building was part of the GSA-owned Federal inventory and the child care center was part of a nation-wide effort to create

childcare for Federal workers. Tragically, two of our employees died in the attack,

and 20 others were injured. Our regional employees were particularly distraught

since they knew many of the tenants from the various agencies housed in the building.

Immediately following the bombing, GSA employees assisted emergency teams

with the evacuation of the building while Federal Protective Officers established a

security perimeter around the building for safety precautions and to expedite aid.

Within hours of the explosion, GSA established a command center in Oklahoma City

and located space for an Oklahoma City Disaster Field Office for the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Justice. By the next morning,

approximately 50 GSA personnel were on-site assisting in critical areas. At the

same time, surrounding buildings like the Federal Building and Courthouse, one

block south of the Murrah Building, and the U.S. Post Office and Courthouse, two

blocks south, also sustained damage and received immediate assistance to maximize

safety and restore normal operations.

GSA was able to respond immediately in various ways to the Oklahoma City disaster. We either provided services directly or coordinated with other agencies and

response groups. These circumstances were a true test of GSA’s preparedness, systems and procedures.

Since this tragedy, the site of the destroyed Murrah Building was cleared and

stands ready to be transformed from a site of pain and sorrow to a site of remembrance and healing. GSA fully supports the establishment of Memorial and is prepared to transfer the site to an appropriate Federal agency or local entity if that

is deemed appropriate. At the same time, GSA is planning to construct a new Federal building in Oklahoma City, as authorized by the Administration and Congress

and in cooperation with the city.

The establishment of a National Memorial is the right thing to do. GSA supports

the establishment of the Memorial and would like to work with the Oklahoma delegation, the National Park Service, and other agencies and entities to find the appropriate way to manage the Memorial.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my remarks. I would be happy to answer any questions that you and the Committee Members may have. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF RONALD J. NORICK, MAYOR, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee. I am Ronald J. Norick, Mayor

of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. On behalf of the members of the City Council, I would

like to thank you for this opportunity to testify before you today.

As you know, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown

Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, devastated the lives of Oklahoma City residents

in a way unlike any other event in the history of the United States. I will focus

my testimony on the impact the bombing had on Oklahoma City and why the proposed legislation is so important to our city.

This legislation will not only benefit Oklahoma City, it will benefit all Americans.

While this event occurred in Oklahoma City, it was an attack on all Americans. It

was an attack on all people who believe in the principles of this nation. People from

every state in the Nation as well as thousands of people from outside the United

States have visited the memorial site. Hundreds of people can be found at the site

every day, in all kinds of weather, at all times of the day and night.

This event touched people not just in the United States, but around the world.

Thousands of items were sent to my office from people from around the world. It

has been over 2 years since the bombing, visitation and inquiries about the site

have not declined. Thousands of people visit the site weekly. More than a million

people have visited the site since the bombing leaving a piece of them at the chain

link fence that surrounds the building footprint. They have left hundreds of thousands of items including messages, toys, flowers and shirts off their back as they
44

try to express their sympathy, their compassion and somehow understand that this

could have happened anywhere in the United States.

For reference, the site is not more than a mile from the intersection of two of the

country’s major interstate highways, together carrying over 200,000 vehicles daily.

Visitation will not decrease. The construction of the memorial and learning center

will result in an increase in visitation, adding impetus to the City’s efforts to improve the appearance and vitality of downtown Oklahoma City.

This legislation granting National Park status will recognize the sacred nature of

the site and its significance to all Americans. This site of a tragic event has become

a special place in our nation’s identity. It cannot, will not and should not be forgotten. This is why the City strongly supports this legislation.

Other than the loss of life, and the accompanying impact on the lives of those

touched by those losses, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building tore

the heart out of our city. More than 300 structures were damaged and 12 buildings

had to be demolished in the heart of our downtown. Rebuilding has been difficult

as property owners and tenants, forced out of the area by damages to their properties, have been reluctant to reestablish in downtown Oklahoma City. Many have

not had the finances. Special funding provided by Congress in 1995 has been absolutely vital to our rebuilding process. The recovery has been slow, and there still

remains a very visible hole in the City’s fabric.

The Oklahoma City Memorial, in conjunction with the passage of this legislation,

will do much to heal that hole. It sends a powerful message to the people of Oklahoma City and to the Nation that the healing process is well underway, and that

investment in the renewal of downtown makes good economic and civic sense.

Knowing that within a year, building will begin on a world class Memorial on the

site of the Murrah Building and that it will be designated a National Park, permits

the City to be more specific in targeting development in the downtown area, especially in the severally impacted district surrounding the Memorial.

The redevelopment of several of the larger buildings most heavily damaged by the

bombing will now be possible. The City can also begin planning for traffic control,

parking, streetscaping, sidewalk improvements, directional signage and other public

improvements required to cater to the restructured business district and visitors to

the site. Much of this planning has been on hold as the City and property owners

have struggled with the task of making this area whole again. That hold will be

lifted by this legislation. Private investors who have been holding back until they

know the future of the area, can also begin their reconstruction plans.

The City strongly supports this legislation’s establishment of the Oklahoma City

National Memorial Trust. It is vital to those most directly affected by the events

of April 19, 1995, that the story of this tragic event be managed locally. The Trust

is the best vehicle for doing so.

Let me say again, the tragedy that befell Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, was

not just a tragedy for those of us in Oklahoma. It was a tragedy that affected the

whole nation. The effect of that tragedy is felt no less today, over 2 years later. It

is only fitting that a tragedy of such national significance be recognized as such, and

the legislation I speak in support of today provides that recognition. The city of

Oklahoma City strongly supports this legislation, and we will be happy to do whatever is necessary to support its passage.

Thank you Mr. Chairman and members for this opportunity.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT M. JOHNSON, CHAIRMAN, OKLAHOMA CITY MEMORIAL

FOUNDATION

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee:

My name is Robert M. Johnson. I am the Chairman of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, serving as a volunteer pursuant to the June, 1995 appointment of

Oklahoma City Mayor Ron Norick.

In April 1995, President and Mrs. Clinton came to Oklahoma just days following

the worst terrorist attack on American soil. The President said then:

‘‘All of you, the brave people of Oklahoma, made it clear to the entire nation

and to the world that the very deeds of those who sought terror to divide us

brought us closer together . . . And we’ll be right by your side until the work is

done.’’

Just one month following the bombing, President Clinton told the Nation that in

the months ahead, our nation would look to Oklahoma again to provide the vision

and inspiration to appropriately memorialize America’s tragedy.
45

In response, Mayor Norick created the 350 member Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task Force, which is known today as the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation.

The Foundation embraced the challenge of memorializing a national tragedy so

unprecedented in American history. We democratized the memorial process by making it open and inclusive. There have been no political, socio-economic or other barriers to participation. Most importantly, we have actively solicited and encouraged

and given great deference to participation by family members and survivors in all

aspects of the memorial process. This memorial process has been transforming and

has contributed to the healing of our city, our state and our nation, and most importantly, those most directly affected by the tragedy. As one family member said—

through the memorial process, chaos has been transformed into hope and unity.

Incredibly, all votes on critical decisions in this process have been unanimous, including the one for the adoption of the Memorial Mission Statement, which came

after several months of receiving input from victims’ families and survivors and

other caring people from all over the world. The opening lines of the Mission Statement are:

We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and

those changed forever. May all who leave here know the impact of violence. May

this Memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.

The Mission Statement requires that the Oklahoma City National Memorial consist of an interactive learning museum, together with an institute dedicated to the

prevention of terrorism and violence and finally a remembrance component. This

last element was created by Hans and Torrey Butzer and Sven Berg and was recently selected through an international design competition which drew entries from

all 50 states and 23 countries. This design was chosen on the first secret ballot of

the Selection Committee by unanimous vote. It was subsequently approved by unanimous vote at a joint meeting of the Board and the Families and Survivors Committee of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation.

By its very nature, the April 19, 1995 bombing was an attack on the American

Government and our public servants, and, as such, it was an attack on each American. Although the bombing occurred in Oklahoma City, the national and international impact and reaction make it clear that by no means should this be memorialized as just an Oklahoma City or State of Oklahoma tragedy. Equally important

is the Federal character of the site of the attack and the significant number of the

victims and survivors who were innocent Federal public servants.

The Oklahoma City National Memorial will memorialize America’s Tragedy by

preserving the memory of the victims and survivors of the tragedy, by emphatically

confirming the unification of spirit of all Americans in the wake of disaster, and by

sending a powerful message to the world of the senselessness of terrorism as a

means of effecting societal or government change.

Although the response to the Oklahoma City bombing reminded the world that

Americans are capable of great compassion, selflessness and unity when tragedy

strikes, our response is not yet complete. We respectfully request your participation

in the memorialization of America’s tragedy by enacting H.R. 1849.

Thank you.

STATEMENT OF HANS BUTZER, DESIGNER, CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS

Torrey and I will never forget the morning we heard on Voice of America radio

while in Berlin, that the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City had

been bombed. Although we were an ocean away, we felt shocked that such a tragedy

could occur on American soil. We also believed it to be our duty to make some sort

of contribution to the recovery efforts.

The design we are presenting to you is our contribution, and is guided primarily

by the introductory paragraph of the Memorial Foundation’s Mission Statement:

We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those

changed forever.

May all who leave here know the impact of violence.

May this memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.

With these words, the experience of visiting the Oklahoma City Memorial begins.

Whether traveling along Harvey Avenue or Robinson Avenue or along Fifth Street,

the first site of the Memorial Complex is of the gates of time. Within the urban fabric, these gates provide a powerful identity for the Memorial Complex and clearly

indicate that this portion of Fifth Street has been closed forever. The Eastern gate,

inscribed with the time ‘‘9:01’’, together with the Western Gate ‘‘9:03’’ frame the moment and place of explosion ‘‘9:02.’’
46

The gates also serve as a transition, both physical and psychological, from the

busy city streets to a meditative landscape rich with soft edges and sounds.

Beneath the incription ‘‘we come here to remember,’’ one is drawn through the

gate’s opening into the heart of the moment 9:02 eager to tell its story.

The footprint of the former Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building to the South is covered with soft green grass, sloping up toward the warmth of the sun. The 168 empty

chairs are on the grassy slope where the building once stood, reminding us of those

who died. While the tragedy has affected the community and nation as a whole, the

168 individual chairs will remind us of the personal loss which resulted on April

19, 1995.

The chairs’ presence will ensure that future generations of Americans will always

remember these members of our community. The chairs are constructed of a stone

seat and back mounted atop a glass block base which is inscribed with a victim’s

name. By day, the chairs appear to float above their translucent base, just as our

memories of loved ones seem to float past at any given moment. By night, the glass

bases will be illuminated, representing beacons of hope which will inspire Oklahoma

City, its state and the Nation, to rebuild and prepare for a better tomorrow.

The Survivor Tree, witness to the violence of moment, stands to the north commemorating those who survived. Under its canopy, grassy terraces step down in

constrast to the sloping field of 168 chairs beyond. Here, visitors may sit and find

inspiration to live their lives more meaningfully, and better appreciate the freedoms

they as survivors enjoy.

Rushing forth the city’s edges to surround the Survivor Tree, is an orchard of blossoming fruit trees which recognize those who helped. Symbolic in their bearing of

fruit, these trees allude to the continuing life cycle of those rescued and their future

generations. The harvesting of the fruit in the fall would be the focus on annual

celebrations honoring those who helped and those who were rescued.

Nestled in the northwest corner of the orchard is a special place for little helpers—the children. A series of chalkboards set in the ground represents the many

letters and drawings the children sent in support, and provides a place for them to

continue expressing their thoughts and encouragement.

A long reflecting pool spans what was once Fifth Street. Gently flowing water

soothes the healing wound caused by the fiery blast. The sounds of moving water

provide a peaceful background to visitor’s thoughts. During the hot summer, the

pool will provide cool relife. In winter, its surface may freeze, reflecting the warm

glow of the empty chairs. Dark reflective stone will line the pool’s surface, making

it difficult to see the bottom. Water will flow over the edges and disappear into a

thin channel running around the perimeter of the pool.

It is here at the water’s edge that the areas of the empty chairs, the Survivor

Tree and its terraces, the fruit tree orchard meet. And as visitors gaze at their own

reflections, they see the faces of those changed forever.

As you can see from our response, this event touched the world. It is our hope

that the world will be able to come to the site of this event and gain an understanding of what happened on April 19th. I respectfully urge your support of H.R.

1849, the bill to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the

National Park System and designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust.

STATEMENT OF EMMETT E. ‘‘BUD’’ WELCH, FAMILY MEMBER, OKLAHOMA CITY,

OKLAHOMA

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. I am Bud Welch, my 23 year old

daughter, Julie Marie Welch, was killed April 19, 1995, in the Murrah Building

Bombing.

Julie had graduated from Bishop McGuiness High School in 1990 after being a

foreign exchange student with Youth for Understanding. She lived with a family in

Pontevedra, Spain for one year between her sophomore and junior year in high

school.

She received a foreign language scholarship from Marquette University and entered school there in August, 1990.

Julie had spent her sophomore year in college in Madrid at Marquette’s campus

there. She received her degree in Spanish from Marquette with a minor in French

and Italian. Julie spoke Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, English and knew

enough German to travel. She had graduated from Marquette University in Milwaukee in 1994.

Julie was the Spanish translator for Social Security. I brought Julie back to Oklahoma 4th of July weekend in 1994. She was employed by Social Security the following month, she was hired under the Federal Government Honors Program.
47

Julie Marie was my only daughter, my pal, my confidant and my friend.

I was to meet Julie at 11:30 that fateful Wednesday morning for our weekly lunch

at the Athenian Greek Restaurant across the street from the Murrah Building and

west of the Survivor Tree.

It became very important that the old faithful American Elm, now known as the

‘‘Survivor Tree’’ be included in the planned Memorial. That was Julie’s favorite place

to park and this tree survived the blast that so many people did not. To this day,

it is the only ‘‘living’’ thing left on that site.

Working closely with the Memorial process has helped me tremendously in my

healing. I look forward to that continuing with dialog with strangers once our new

beautiful Memorial is built.

I believe it should be a National Memorial with National Park status because:

(1) The majority of the victims were Federal public servants.

(2) The crime happened on Federal property and stemmed from what some

believe were problems with Federal policies.

(3) The people of this nation and the people of the world expect the United

States of America to recognize this as a national memorial.

I base that on the thousands of cards, letters and telephone calls that I have personally received from more than 30 foreign countries, every province in Canada and

every State in the Union.

Let’s please don’t let the world down. I urge you to support H.R. 1849 to establish

the Oklahoma City National Monument and designate the Oklahoma City Memorial

Trust.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity. I would be happy to answer any

questions at this time.

STATEMENT OF DON ROGERS, A.P. MURRAH FEDERAL BUILDING MANAGER (RETIRED),

GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION

I wish to thank Congressman Frank Lucas and the members of this Committee

for me to testify on an issue I feel so strongly about.

INTRODUCTION

I am Don Rogers, Manager of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma

City on April 19, 1995. I am a Survivor of the bombing, injured in the building on

the first floor, near the center of the building.

BACKGROUND

I would like to tell you part of my story, which occurred on a date that so many

of us, will never forget.

The moment the bomb detonated, I was standing near the elevator lobby, having

just completed a meeting which was held in my office (situated against the glass

wall which was the north wall of the building where the Ryder truck was parked).

I had walked out into the hall after the meeting to continue a side discussion with

Robert (Bob) Dennis, Court Clerk of the US District Court, Western District. Quickly, we were engulfed in total darkness—unable to see or breathe. I was choking for

air when I came to the realization that someone was calling my name. Somewhat

disoriented and unable to see, I reached toward the direction of the voice. In doing

so, I was able to grasp Bob’s arm. Together, we climbed over debris trying to reach

safety. It was as if we were crawling through a cave, except there was no air to

breathe nor light to see. Blocked exits and hallways, which we found to, no longer

existed were conditions that further complicated our efforts to find light and fresh

air. Beginning to feel somewhat ‘‘entombed,’’ we became determined to find a way

out. While we were attempting to get out of the building, Bob and I rescued two

other ladies (Dot Hill and Pam Lacy) who were confusedly moving toward the interior of the building. We were able to help them through and we found a way

through the rubble, to the west side of the building where we were able to exit in

an area that before had been a loading dock.

We quickly realized that things were not much better outside of the building. The

north half of the building had been blown inward; a large gaping hole was all that

remained of that portion. On the street about twenty-five cars were on fire. I was

confused as to what could have possibly occurred to cause such damage. Realization

hit me with the impact of yet another blast—I was immediately concerned for my

employees, the children in the daycare, and the tenants of the building I was responsible for managing—where were they? I ran to the south of the building to gain

entrance and found men using make-shift ladders from the playground fences to

climb into the building, trying to rescue those trapped inside. The east stairwell was

blocked by rubble so I couldn’t continue to higher floors—I went back to the plaza
48

level. Looking upward trying to determine the best approach I saw a man pinned

against the inner south wall, hanging out of the building. The upper half of his head

was missing, the lower portion of his body was completely crushed, yet he raised

his head asking for assistance, ‘‘Help me. Please help me.’’ A moment later, his life

was gone. The Federal workers (survivors of the A.P. Murrah Building and those

who immediately ran to help from the US Courthouse) who were closest and trying

to pull him free realized that their efforts for this man were in vain . . . nothing

could be done. Although my eyes were full of smoke, dust, and debris, l have a clear

memory of viewing this man’s losing struggle with death.

By this time, members of the fire department were arriving to assist in the rescue

efforts already underway. Again I attempted to enter the building in an effort to

find employees, children, and tenants. Firefighters saw me and insisted that I needed medical attention for my eyes and the multiple lacerations.

I was treated at the local hospital that day, released in the afternoon, and returned to the destroyed building to help rescue workers search for survivors and assist in identifying bodies. I remember thinking that this couldn’t be the same building that I had worked in for nineteen years, it was difficult identify anything. It

seemed as though we were going down into a large cavern with debris heaped on

the ground and hanging from the ceilings.

I remember seeing one body that did not resemble a person; it was a mass of flesh

and material embedded in rock and crevices. The fireman with me at the time told

me that this was a lady wearing a black dress imprinted with roses. I remembered

that I had seen this woman as she stepped off the elevator, walking past me and

toward the front doors just moments before the blast. This is one of the many horrible experiences I had on that day and the days to follow.

This has affected my family through me. My wife has informed me (many times)

that I awakened her in the middle of the night, telling her that we needed to ‘‘get

out of the building.’’ I still have dreadful dreams and haunting memories every

day—these vivid events seem to replay over and over in my mind which causes me

to question ‘‘Why’’ were so many killed? . . . I wonder ‘‘Why’’?

I attended the sentencing of Timothy McVeigh, the individual tried and convicted

by his peers as the person responsible for this devastating act. It was difficult for

survivors and family members alike to see this man, convicted of this tragedy, coldfaced with no remorse. This was a day that will not be forgotten by those affected

by the bombing—it seemed as though Mr. McVeigh reduced the tragedy to an insignificant loss.

IMPORTANCE OF THE MEMORIAL

The innocent laughter of the children nor their footsteps (as well as that of my

friends and coworkers) will never be heard again.

Life’s evening sun has set for 168 Americans, which will not rise again on this

earth. The contributions of these individuals’ to their families, communities, local

churches and civic groups were ended before any of them had the opportunity to

do great things. However, each of them was considered as ‘‘great’’ by family and

friends; therefore resulting in a great loss to our nation.

We wish to let the world know that violent acts must be prevented. The proposed

memorial would provide hope that future violent acts of this magnitude can be prevented and serve as a reminder of how people can (and should) reach out and care

for one another with compassion.

We, as a nation—as a society, governed by citizens, feel an urgency to construct

an appropriate memorial in order to remember the value of those who perished (infants, children, sisters/brothers, parents, grandparents) the strength of the human

spirit, and the loss of innocence experienced by America on that day.

Unless we establish this memorial as a national monument to:

remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever,

provide a place for people to gain an understanding of the impact of violence,

and provide a place which offers comfort, strength, peace, and hope, the affliction of this American tragedy will be unresolved.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank my wife, Joyce Rogers, and Federal

Executive Board Director, LeAnn Jenkins, for assisting me in my efforts to testify

before this Subcommittee.

STATEMENT OF GARY MARRS, FIRE CHIEF, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I am Gary Marrs, the Fire

Chief for the Oklahoma City Fire Department. On behalf of the more than 1,000

fire fighters in Oklahoma City and those from 43 fire departments and a large num-
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ber of law enforcement agencies that came from near and far to help in the rescue

and recovery efforts, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to testify before

you today.

As you know, at 9:02 a.m. on April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City was the target of

a senseless act of terrorism. Within a few seconds, all of our lives were changed forever. The tragic loss of life and the countless injuries were devastating to our community.

Seconds after the bombing, a massive response of public safety agencies, health

care providers and the general public occurred. The first arriving fire department

personnel from Station 1 were faced with an overwhelming rescue operation. Buildings were damaged over a 60 square block area, and a large number of vehicles

were on fire. Major structural damage occurred in not only the Federal building, but

in a 26-story, 400 unit apartment building, a six-story office building, a three-story

office building, a two-story building with a restaurant and a basement across the

street, and in several buildings in a four-block area.

As we approached the scene, we began encountering debris in the road several

blocks away from the Murrah Federal Building site. Fire fighters began walking in

front of the apparatus to move the debris out of the roadway. In addition, they

began to encounter injured people walking away from the blast. A number of our

units began to immediately treat injured survivors and quickly realized there were

going to be hundreds more.

Dozens of rescue and recovery workers formed human chains as we began to pass

victims from the building into the street. All individuals rescued alive from the

Murrah Federal Building and the surrounding structures were rescued on the first

day within the first 12 hours of the operation. Many of the rescues accomplished

that day, by Oklahoma City fire fighters and the hundreds who assisted them,

would have been dramatic events if they had happened individually. The fact that

they occurred as part of an incident of this magnitude overshadowed the hundreds

of individual acts of professionalism, and in many cases heroism, that occurred that

Wednesday in April and the days that followed.

FEMA workers and 11 Urban Search and Rescue Task Force teams came to Oklahoma City with hope they could help us find more survivors and to help all of us.

Today, spread out across the United States, each rescuer has an understanding that

this event was not just an Oklahoma event . . . it was an event that touched the nation. It has reached coast to coast.

The outpouring from people was unbelievable. From the wheelbarrows filled with

ice and drinks, to a national pizza chain onsite serving more than 10,000 free pizzas, to a supply room filled with everything from bandanas to rain suits to batteries.

We would ask for something and people would begin to bring it to the site. People

donated clothes, food, equipment, and supplies in record numbers to support the rescue operations. If a request for some specialized service was made, such as veterinarians for the search dogs, the response was immediate and overwhelming. More

than 1,000 cellular telephones were handed out, free to emergency personnel and

all the air time was donated by the companies.

Establishing a National Park on the site of this attack is appropriate to honor the

victims, the survivors and the rescue and recovery workers and to show the world

the shining example of how a community can come together to rise above adversity.

As Oklahoma City Police Chaplain Jack Poe has said since the bombing, the Oklahoma Standard means a new level of caring. The Oklahoma City National Memorial

will do just that. Mr. Chairman, again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to

represent all of the brave men and women who worked for 18 days under impossible

circumstances on behalf of our community and our nation.

STATEMENT OF HON. HELEN CHENOWETH, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM

THE STATE OF IDAHO

I want to first thank Chairman Hansen for holding a hearing on H.R. 1849, a bill

that would establish an Oklahoma City National Memorial, and an Oklahoma City

National Memorial Trust in memory of the victims of the Oklahoma bombing tragedy.

Mr. Chairman, the bombing took the lives of 168 men, women and children, injured more than 500 others and forever changed the life of countless others. Establishing this memorial and trust fund to the victims and the survivors of the Oklahoma bombing is the very least Congress can do to help the citizens of Oklahoma

and the Nation recover from this terrible event. I am pleased that this memorial

will be unlike any other memorial in that it will be an interactive museum for

Americans now and in the future to learn and remember the lessons about the need-
50

less loss of life and tremendous suffering that occurred in this wanton act of violence. It will also stand as a testament to not only those who lost their lives in this

tragedy, but also to those many brave individuals who took heroic risks to save lives

from the dangerous wreckage of what was left after the explosion.

I am looking forward to hearing the testimony of the Oklahoma Congressional

Delegation, who worked hard to put this excellent piece of legislation together. Finally, I am also interested in hearing how this unique trust fund and memorial,

which will mostly be privately funded, is going to be managed. Its success may

prove as a template for future memorials.

Again, I thank the Chairman for holding this hearing. What happened in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995 was a very dark day in our nation’s history. However,

through legislative Acts such as H.R. 1849, perhaps there is some good to be gained

from the lessons learned and the bravery witnessed in the amazing aftermath of

this experience.
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