59

Miss Blanchette, when you looked at this, what was your reac-
tion to the way Job Corps does this and now is arguing in support
of, which is a surprise to me, I will say, Ms. Silva.

Ms. BLANCHETTE. We were surprised, too, to truly understand
what a completer—how the completer was defined for Job Corps.
We have eo} le on our staff who have worked with these programs
a lot longer than I have, and it was in a conversation that it came
to light, almost by accident, that this is what was meant by a
completer. We had no idea. And then once we found that out, we
looked into it further and got more information.

Mr. Says. So what did you think a completer was before you
looked at the program?

Ms. BLANCHETTE. We thought it was someone who completed all
the duties and tasks assigned to a particular vocational training
curriculum. So in the case of welding, it would be someone who had
completed all 128 tasks.

In terms of what Ms. Silva is talking about, there is a difference
between what you do internally in a program, to manage the pro-
gram internally, to provide motivation and encouragement to your
participants, and what you report to the public, and what you use
to assess the success of your program. And I think more than any-
thing, that is the issue here.

We are not taking issue with the training achievement record or
how these step-off levels are determined. But in terms of what is
reported to the public as being completion and what Job Corps uses
to assess its own success, we think that, as a minimum, maybe you
would want to report all the information. You would want to report
a rate of people who have made the first step-off level or maybe the
second or a third of the step-off levels for a particular curriculum.
But you want to make it clear what it is you are reporting and
what you are using in assessing the program.

Mr. Suays. See, I would be struck by the fact that you would
have step one, step two, step three, maybe step four, maybe step
five, whatever, and then you would have a full completer; and a
full completer, as opposed to someone who just completed step one
and step two.

I can tell you this much, Ms. Silva. I don’t think there is a Mem-
ber in Congress who would have believed anything other than what
Ms. Blanchette believed. And so it makes me want to go back and
look at all of the documents that we have to now understand your
terminology, your logic for what is success.

It would strike me that the program, as needed as it is, has got
a long way to go before it is successful. And it strikes me that one
of the reasons this was devised was to disguise the lack of the suc-
cess of the program, and that is not something I’m very happy to

ay.

‘Would rou describe to me how you allocate and determine the
success of rogram in matching to a job skill?

Ms. Save e second chart?

Mr. SHays. Why don’t you walk me through it and tell me if you
agree with that chart or not and why. Let us just take your most
successful program, as I gee it. Center “A”. Do you dispute the find-
ings of GAO in that area?


25

for students. At each center, courses are being enriched to allow students to learn relevant
academic, vocational and social skills in the context of “real world” experience. And, at
employer work sites, students not only practice the skills they have gained at the Job Corps
center, but they develop new skills demanded by industry. This hands-on experience also
enables students to gain social competence. Job Corps is moving in other directions to involve
employers in our training and to provide students with training experiences in actual employment
settings. For instance, at 63 of our centers, we have established a full-time, two-year position
dedicated to coordinating and developing work-based learning opportunities in the business
community and integrating our academic and vocational curricula.

Our efforts have brought employers ~- their experience and their expertise -- into the
delivery of training for Job Corps students. For instance our Gary Job Corps Center in Texas, we
began a partnership with Quaker State/Q Lube in 1997. As a result of this partnership, the Gary
center remodeled a trade shop into an exact replica of a Q Lube fast-lubrication station. The
replica is regulation size, includes an underground workbay, and features all of the equipment
regularly used by Q Lube, including tools, oils and lubes, service forms, and computer billing
systems. Students even wear bright green Q Lube uniforms during their training experience.
Students who complete this training program become Certified Automotive Lubrication
Technicians and are placed directly into local shops. Because qualified technicians are very
much in demand by Q Lube, we expect that this partnership will continue to grow and benefit
both our students and the company.

In Kansas City, Missouri, a connection has been established between Citicorp Credit

Services and the Transportation-Communications International Union (TCU) to train Job Corps

12


COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman

BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York HENRY A. WAXMAN, California

J. DENNIS HASTERT, Illinois ‘TOM LANTOS, California

CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
CHRISTOPHER COX, California EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

JOHN M. McHUGH, New York GARY A. CONDIT, California

STEPHEN HORN, California CAROLYN B. MALONEY, } New York

JOHN L. MICA, Florida THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin
THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia BIE ANOR HOLMES NORTON, Washington,

DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana
MARK E. SOUDER, Indian:

CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania

JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois
MARSHALL “MARK” SANFORD, South DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
Carolina JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire JIM TURNER, Texas
PETE SESSIONS, Texas THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine
MICHAEL PAPPAS, New Jersey HAROLD E. FORD, Jr., Tennessee
VINCE SNOWBARGER, Kansas
BOB BARR, Georgia BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
DAN MILLER, Florida (Independent)

RON LEWIS, Kentucky
KEVIN BINGER, Staff Director
DaNIEL R, Mott, Deputy Staff Director
Davip A. Kass, Deputy Counsel and Parliamentarian
dupiti McCoy, Chief Clerk
Putt ScHILIRO, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut, Chairman

VINCE SNOWBARGER, Kansas EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine
DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana TOM LANTOS, California
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana BERNARD SANDERS, yamont (Ind.)
MICHAEL PAPPAS, New Jersey THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin
—_— DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio

Ex OFFICIO
DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California

LAWRENCE J. HALLORAN, Staff Director and Counsel
J. VINCENT CHASE, Chief Investigator
Jesse S. BUSHMAN, Clerk
CHERRI BRANSON, Minority Counsel

ab


68

‘may include upgrading job positions as well as support in securing housing and
transportation. This placement follow-up is on-going and the results are documented
quarterly.

HBI has raised more than $250,000 in non-federal funds to help Job Corps graduates
who need financial assistance for transportation and housing until they receive their first
paycheck. Private sector organizations such as State Farm insurance Companies and
local home builder associations regularly contribute monies to help HB! Job Corps
graduates with the cost of transitioning between Job Corps and employment. Further,
individual NAHB members are making a difference by assisting students overcome one
of the greatest barriers to job placement — having adequate transportation — by
donating vehicles.

National NAHB publications such as Nation's Building News, Builder magazine and
Executive Officers Perspective herald the hiring of Job Corps graduates to meet the
cnttical labor availability issue facing builders, HBI has recently written an NAHB
booklet, “Building Tomorrow's Workforce Today” which familiarizes builders with a
variety of efforts to deal with this labor supply issue, highlighting accessing Job Corps
students as a ready supply of workers trained in the most up-to-date construction
techniques. Additionally, HBI has produced a video and guide promoting women in the
trades, “Opening New Doors to the American Dream.” It features HBI Atlanta Job
Corps graduate, Tammy Mills.

Because NAHB represents the industry itself, it is able to incorporate the skills,
techniques and attitudes into its training that the industry most needs. The curriculum
and training materials used in HB! training programs are industry-validated and
reviewed regularly by employers. At all its sixty-three Job Corps training sites,
NAHB/MEI works to establish close relationships between our craft instructors and local
builders, remodelers and subcontractors. Training can be tailored to meet local labor
market needs.

In order fo assist and encourage students to complete their GED and their construction
training, NAHB/HBI instructors are working closely with academic teachers, particularly
in math, science and English, to better integrate and reinforce the knowledge and skills
‘students learn in their academic and vocational classes. Planning meetings are held
between academic and vocational teachers so no opportunity is missed to stress the
relevance of the academic subjects in a construction trade. Construction employers are
increasingly looking for strong verbal as well as math skills in new employees. The
collaboration between academic and vocational instructors is addressing this demand
from the employer community.

Working with our member employer community, NAHB/HBI has established ngorous
professional standards for our instructors. All instructors must have at least seven years
of experience working in their particular construction craft. Applicants, in particular, are
sought who have experience teaching in apprenticeship programs or in vocational
school construction programs. After hiring they are required to attend certain OSHA
recognized safety training programs. New instructors are then sent to spend training

3


79

-2-

Employability skills development begins upon a student’s arrival to
Orientation. During this initial phase of training, staff articulate
work place expectations. The vocational manager gives students
an overview of the vocational program offerings and criteria for
participation.

During the second week of enrollment, while in the Occupational
Exploration Program, students receive specific information about
trade offerings. Aptitude and interest assessment tools are used
to assist students in selecting a vocation. Instructors and
students from respective trades make presentations and answer
questions.

In addition to learning information about job trends, qualifications
and salary ranges of vocations, students get in-class hands on
experience on mock stations. Based on their interest, results of
the assessment tools administered and vocational counseling
received, students select three vocational offerings.

Once identified, students visit the three trades selected and
participate in activities carefully planned and supervised by the
respective instructor. Instructors formally evaluate each student's
participation. Before placement in a selected trade, the student
returns to the instructor for an individual interview to assess
commitment and suitability for the vocation.

Based on the trade choice identified, the counselor and placement
staff meet with the student to set goals and tailor an individual
employability plan to help the student achieve successful program
completion. Labor market information from the students home
community is discussed at length. For example, if a student
wants to study landscaping but few jobs will be available, the
student is counseled to either consider a different trade with
greater employment opportunities or to explore and consider
relocation to an area where landscaping has greater employment
opportunities.


15

third are members of families receiving public assistance. Seventy-two percent of Job Corps
students are minorities and 58 percent are young men. Eighty-seven percent live on a Job Corps
center. Job Corps operates 113 such centers which serve students from all 50 states, the District
of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands.

Job Corps, the Nation’s largest investment in at-risk youth, has a thirty-four year history
of success in providing education and training to enable youth to make better futures for
themselves and their families. This is a record of great accomplishment, and one of which we
are very proud. Still, we seek to build on this record of recognized achievement by continually
looking for new and more effective ways to meet the critical challenges facing the young people
we serve.

1 am prepared today to discuss several aspects of Job Corps’ vocational programs. | will
focus on providing a summary of our activities and initiatives in each of the following areas: (1)
how vocational training providers are selected; (2) the systems in place to assess performance of
training providers and hold them accountable; and (3) ongoing efforts to update and improve Job
Corps training and curricula.

Overview of High-Quality Training Providers

Job Corps operates 1,635 individual vocational classes, covering approximately 100
‘occupational areas, at 113 centers nationwide. The total cost for operating these programs is
$144 million. Included in this total operating cost are Job Corps contracts with NTCs --
specifically eight national unions, or union affiliates, and one building industry association -- to
provide training at selected Job Corps centers across the country. This training is primarily in the

construction trades, but these NTCs also offer advanced training in automotive repair and in


74

* Close relationships with contractors and manufacturers;

* _ Assolid training curriculum that keeps up with the latest
technologies and demands in the construction industry.

Vocational Skills Training (VST) is the foundation of our training program and a large
reason for our success in placement and retention. We aggressively duplicate real-
work situations for the students to prepare them for a tough and demanding career in
construction, Feedback from contractors and employers has proven the merit of this
approach to training. Our Job Corps graduates are finding and keeping jobs at a
higher rate because they have had on-the-job experience during their training

We have targeted hundreds of projects throughout the communities of this nation and
performed renovations, restorations and even constructed buildings from the ground
up. The savings to taxpayers has been significant and the quality of the work is
outstanding. You've been provided with information about one large-scale project that
saved over $320,000: The Whitney Young Vocational Building. That is just one
example of the quality of training we are providing.

Apprenticeship training and our relationship with Local Unions throughout the United
States has also been crucial to the success of our program. Local Unions nave
provided us with a network for job placements throughout the county. Our graduates
have to go wherever the work is if they are going to survive in this industry. Local
Unions provide a way to help move graduates from location-to-location and job-to job

Whereas most industries are relatively stable, construction and agricultural industries
are at the mercy of mother nature. When there are weather stoppages, we don't get
paid - a concept we aren't always able to get through to our students. But we have to
be able to go where the work is if we're going to stay employed and Union programs
assist in that mobility. We have managed to place thousands of young people
throughout the country as a result of this valuable network and cooperation

4


32

Information reported by Labor, however, on the percentage of Job Corps
participants who complete their vocational training and obtain jobs related to that
training is misleading and overstates program results. Although Job Corps reported that
in program year 1996,’ 48 percent of program participants nationwide completed
vocational training. our review concluded that only 14 percent of program participants
had completed all requirements of their vocational training curricula. The rest of the
participants that Job Corps counted as completing training had completed only some of
the duties and tasks of a specific vocational training program. Labor also reported that
62 percent of the participants nationwide who obtained employment found jobs that
matched the vocational training received in Job Corps. At the five centers we visited,
however, the validity of about 41 percent of the job placements reported by Labor to be
training related was questionable.

Finally, Labor has been awarding sole-source contracts to national labor and
business organizations for vocational training for more than 30 years. It has not
adequately justified, however, procuring these training services on a noncompetitive basis,
according to our review. The main reason Labor has justified awarding these contracts
on a sole-source basis is that these organizations have a national placement network and
are better able than non-national organizations to place Job Corps participants who
complete thew training. Labor has provided no data, however, to support the extent to
which these sole-source contractors actually place Job Corps participants nationwide.

BACKGROUND

Job Corps was established as a national employment and training program in 1964
to address employment barriers faced by severely disadvantaged youth. Job Corps enrolls
youths aged 16 to 24 who are economically disadvantaged, in need of additional education
or training, and living under disorienting conditions such as a disruptive home life. In
program year 1996, the most recent year for which information was available, nearly 80
percent of the participants were high school dropouts and almost two-thirds had never
worked full time. Participating in Job Corps can lead to youths' placement in a job or
enrollment in further training or education. It can also lead to educational achievements
such as attaining a high school diploma and learning reading or math skills. In program
year 1996, Job Corps provided comprehensive services to more than 68,000 youths. Labor
reported that 80 percent of these youths were placed in employment, joined the armed
services, or enrolled in full-time schooling.

Job Corps is one of a few remaining federally administered training programs. It
uses four sets of contracts—three are awarded on a competitive basis, the fourth on a

74 program year begins on July 1 and ends on June 30 of the following year. A program
year is designated by the year in which it begins. Thus, program year 1996 began on July
1, 1996, and ended on June 30, 1997.

2 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


103

like for every journeyman on a job, there will be an apprentice.
And this varies. That was a project agreement. And it varies across
the country, 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 1 to 4.

Mr. Suays. Let me say, I want to ask three questions that my
staff wrote just so you know we do it on both sides of the aisle, but
there are questions that I need to make sure that are asked.

Also, I want to say for the record it was very appropriate for us
to have staff. I was poking fun when I said don’t tell the Speaker,
we do allow staff to craft questions in other committees as well.

What would be the appropriate length of time on the job to deter-
mine a successful placement? Mr. Humphreys. I need quick an-
swers on this. What would be the appropriate length of time to de-
termine a successful placement?

Mr. HUMPHREYS. Let me give you a quick answer and qualify it.
Let’s say 6 months. And the reason I qualify it, the construction
industry, you typically work yourself out of a job, unless you're in-
volved in service work and you move from job to job and company
to company.

Mr. Suays. Fair enough.

Mr. Wolf, do you agree with that?

Mr. WoLrF. Well, I don’t like to say that, 6 months. I like to go
by times. Nobody likes that. You know, you can pass through time
and never ge-——

Mr. Suays. Just give me a sense.

h Mr. Wo tr. I’m in a classroom 6 hours, I’ve got training for 6
ours.

4 Mr. Suays. But in other words, is a successful job placement 30
jays?

Mr. WoLrF. No.

Mr. Suays. Six months, a year?

Mr. Wo rF. Is it successful? Well, I think we’re—I don’t know
where we're at right now. I guess our average is between 7 and 9
months. That’s what we’re working on.

Mr. SHays. But in other words, to be successful at job placement,
they've ‘ot to be there?

ir. WOLF. It’s got to be more than 7 months, I would think.

Mr. Suays. I’m getting a sense.

Mr. Price, what do you think?

Mr. PRIcE. I would like to see a year to give that student actually
a chance to develop his or her life.

Mr. SHays. Mr. Payne.

Mr. Payne. A year.

Mr. Suays. Thank you, that’s helpful.

How do you determine a training-related job match accurately re-
flects the participant’s training? How do we do that? That’s not
going to be an easy answer, but I have 2 minutes here. The ques-
tion is, how do you determine a training-related job match actually
reflects the participant's training? I'll just take an answer.

Mr. HuMPHREYS. Within your job, if you use the skills, some of
the skills that you learned while studying that trade, that may well
be a job training match.

Mr. SHays. So you want the skills to match the job training—
you want the job training to match the skills necessary in the job?

Mr. HUMPHREYS. Right.


39

vocational training programs. At the five centers, only about 1 in 3 reported vocational
completers had actually completed all the vocational training requirements. The
percentage of program year participants fully completing vocational training programs
ranged from about 11 percent at one center to about 27 percent at another center

Nonetheless, these two centers had reported vocational completion rates of 65 and 73
percent, respectively (see fig.1).

Eigure J: Reported and Full Complenon Rates for Vocationa) Training Nationwide and at
Five Job Corps Centers, Fiscal Year 1996

‘|

eee esses

oe

[2 pret conor

HE Fs: convince

GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


64

tions. The association has a local home builder association in every
town in this country, probably, with a population of 25,000 or more

People.

e association’s decision to become involved in training young
people in the construction trades in Job Corps was a major initia-
tive on the part of the association in addressing the chronic prob-
lem of the shortage of entry-level skilled workers. NAHB started its
first Job Corps training program in 1973. Since that time, the rela-
tionship with the Job Corps has grown, until presently we have
164 construction training programs in 63 Job Corps centers.

Utilizing NAHB’s national placement network, we participate in
major construction trade shows. Exhibit space provided by NAHB
to it at no cost. This results in 3,000 job leads annually. Many of
them are for multiple positions. These employment leads are dis-
seminated to all NAHB and HBI instructors and are extremely
helpful to students who need to relocate because they may not re-
side in employment-rich areas.

Our association members include developers, light commercial
and residential builders, remodelers and suppliers. Affiliation with
these members allows us to custom fit a particular student’s skills
to match the needs of the employer, thus improving the chances of
success.

The NAHB, as well as other national training contractors, has
initiated a postplacement followup effort in cooperation with the
Department of Labor. All students who terminate from our pro-
grams are contacted and are given additional placement support if
needed. This may include job upgrading as well as support in se-
curing housing and transportation. Placement followup is ongoing,
and the results are documented quarterly.

HBI-NAHB has raised more than a quarter of a million dollars
in non-Federal funds to assist Job Corps graduates who need finan-
cial assistance for transportation and housing until they receive
their first paychecks.

Because we represent the construction industry itself, we are
able to incorporate the skills, techniques and attitudes into our
training that the industry most requires. The curriculum and train-
ing materials that we use are industry-validated and are reviewed
regularly by employers. At all 63 Job Corps training sites, we work
to establish a close relationship between our craft instructors and
local builders, remodelers and subcontractors.

In order to assist and encourage students to complete their GED
and their construction craft training, our instructors work closely
with the academic instructors, particularly in math, science and
English, to better integrate and reinforce the knowledge and skills
students learn in their academic classes. Planning meetings are
held between our vocational teachers and the academic teachers so
no opportunity is missed to stress the relevance of the academic
subjects used in the construction trades. Construction employers
increasingly are looking for strong verbal as well as math skills in
new employees. This collaboration is addressing the demand from
the employer community.

Working with our member employer community, we have estab-
lished rigorous professional standards for our instructors. All in-
structors must have at least 7 years of experience working in the


35

Training Administration includes Job Corps in its performance plan, which has a goal of
placing 75 percent of Job Corps participants in jobs or further education with an average
‘wage of $6.50 an hour for those placed in jobs or the armed forces.®

EEFORTS TO ENSURE THE APPROPRIATENESS AND
RELEVANCE OF VOCATIONAL TRAINING

Labor has several activities to foster Job Corps’ employer and community linkages
to ensure the appropriateness of vocational training to local labor markets and its
relevance to employer needs. Since 1984, Labor has used industry advisory groups to
regularly review vocational course curncula to ensure the relevance of course content to
the job market. In program year 1995, Labor introduced a school-to-work initiative at
three Job Corps centers, combining center-based training with actual work site
experience. Labor expanded this initiative to another 30 centers in program year 1996
and an additional 30 centers in program year 1997. In addition, Labor involves local
business and community leaders in deciding which vocational training programs to offer
at newly established Job Corps centers. For example, one such new center that we
visited had decided the vocations to be offered 2 years before the center's contract was
awarded. The center's decisions on vocational training were made with input from local
business and community leaders, including representatives of the mayor's office, the
private industry council,’ the schoo! department, and local businesses. As a result of this,
decisionmaking process, this center does not offer many traditional Job Corps vocational
programs such as clerical, culinary arts, landscaping, and building and apartment
maintenance. Instead, it offers nine vocational training programs in such high-demand
occupations as medical assistant, phlebotomy/EKG technician, and computer repair.

In addition to national efforts, three of Labor's regional offices have developed
their own initiatives to improve linkages between Job Corps centers and area employers.
For example, one regional office has two initiatives in place to modify training programs
to meet the needs of local employers in the shipbuilding and automotive service

'This same goal is also included in Labor's departmentwide performance plan overview.

In addition to these measures, Labor uses other measures to assess the performance of
Job Corps and its center operators, including the proportion of participants who complete
their vocational training and the proportion of participants placed in jobs related to their
vocational training.

"Under the Job Training Partnership Act of 1983, a private industry council, comprising
representatives of private-sector employers, local education agencies, organized labor,
rehabilitation agencies, community-based organizations, economic development agencies,
and the public service employment agency, is appointed by local elected officials of each
service delivery area and approves a job training plan designed to meet local employment
and training needs.

5 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


67

NAHB has worked with its state and local associations for many years to address the
Skilled worker shortage plaguing the industry. The association has assisted local
associations to establish productive relationships with vocational schools, both
secondary and post secondary. Materials for use at career days in local schools have
been created, distributed and assistance has been given in establishing apprenticeship
programs.

The association's decision to become involved in training young people in the
construction trades in Job Corps was another major initiative in addressing the problem
of the shortage of entry level skilled workers. NAHB/HBI started its first Job Corps
training program in 1973. Since that time, its relationship with Job Corps has grown to
the point that today Job Corps has become one of the largest and most important
sources of skilled, entry-level workers for the industry.

Utilizing NAHB/HBI's national placement network, we participate in three major NAHB
building shows annually — the International Builder's Show, the Remodeler’s Show,
and the Multi-family Housing Show. The exhibit space provided at no cost by NAHB
enables us to develop more than 3,000 job leads every year, many of which are for
multiple positions. These employment leads are disseminated to all NAHB/HB!
instructors and are especially helpful to those students who need to relocate because
they do not reside in employment rich areas.

Association members include developers, light commercial and residential builders,
remodelers and suppliers. Affiliation with these members enables HB] to “custom fit” a
particular student's skills to match the needs of the employer, thus improving the
chances for success. A directory of all NAHB members has been downloaded in
alphabetical order by state/city and category — framing, electrical, plumbing, suppliers,
etc. This assists in matching a student's skills with a member's specialty.

NAHB members serve on Job Corps center advisory panels, attend career days and
work with center staff in developing school-to-work sites. HBI’s building and apartment
maintenance program in Springdale, Oregon was one of the model Job Corps school-
to-work pilot programs.

NAHB members are serving as mentors for placed students. For example, Chuck
Haskins, owner of Haskins Electric — the largest residential electrical contractor in
Arizona, has found Job Corps graduates to be excellent employees. To promote
employee retention, Mr. Haskins has developed a mentoring program in which he
‘schedules regular sit-down sessions with his Job Corps employees to discuss their job
performance and any work transition problems they may have. Mr. Haskins currently
employs nine Job Corps graduates.

NAHB/HBI, as well as the other National Training Contractors, has initiated a post-
placement follow-up effort in cooperation with the Department of Labor. All students
who terminate are contacted and given additional placement support if needed. This


104

Mr. WoLr. Yes.

Mr. Suays. I mean, that’s pretty basic. And then finally let me
just ask this last question——

Mr. WoLrF. Can I say something here?

Mr. SHAYS. Yes.

Mr. WoLr. You know, let me say—let’s say this. I place a person.
Actually we train people to work. Nobody wants to work any more.
We train them to work. OK, here we made a placement in your
State for, I forgot, a roofing company. We placed one of our people
with a roofer, still working, and he’s making $12 or $13 an hour
now. Now, we consider that, it’s not in concrete and it’s not in plas-
ter, but we consider that to be a job-related placement. It’s in the
construction industry.

Mr. Suays. Yes. OK. What you probably taught him, though, was
the skills about hard work and——

Mr. WoLr. Correct.

Mr. Says. So maybe we need to find a way, though, but in
terms of the skill that that individual learned, he learned very im-
portant skills, and I am saluting you, but some of the other skills
they learn they didn’t utilize in the job.

Mr. WoLr. Certainly.

Mr. SHays. And it would be nice to evaluate in two different
ways the job training skills, the social skills, all the other, the work
ethic and his trainability, because they obviously were able to train
him. And he’s—and it’s a tough job. I’ve done roofing, and it is a
tough job.

But I have about 4 minutes left, so I’m going to call it quits. I
will say to you that you’ve been a wonderful panel, and you’ve been
helpful to our trying to understand this program. And I know we
could go on longer, but I thank you very much.

One last closing comment from each of you?

Mr. WoLrF. Yes. I forgot to mention before I lost it——

Mr. SHays. What's that?

Mr. Wo tr. But, you know, young people love to compete. One
thing they do like to do is compete. And we have what—we've set
up with these young people—we’ve set up competitions that they
have to complete, both cement masons and the plasterers, and we
put it on a regional basis, and last year we held over at the Build-
ing Museum where we had 30 of them, they competed. This also
is very important to training, the competition.

Mr. Suays. It is. I do need to go. Let me just say, I think that
our Job Corps people are blessed to have all of you involved in Job
Corps, and thank you very much.

Mr. Humphreys, you have this one word you want to say.

Mr. HumMpnReys. Mr. Chairman, NAHB is a conservative organi-
zation that people probably think competition came out of the
Bible. Having said that, I’m aware that national training contrac-
tors, Job Corps a long time ago made a decision that we are the
industry, and try to get as close to the industry as they could with
the NTCs. I think that was a very good decision.


45

level of Job Corps students; and the ability to provide recognition of training as credit
toward meeting the requirements of becoming a journey-level worker. In addition, Labor
officials have stated that a main reason for its justification for these sole-source awards is
the contractors’ maintaining an extensive nationwide placement network. Labor
acknowledged that its national data system has no information to indicate the extent to
which national training contractors were directly responsible for placing Job Corps
participants in jobs.

Our review of Labor's current and proposed justification for its sole-source
contracts and our previous work" on this issue raise questions about Labor's long-
standing practice of awarding sole-source contracts. Labor's 1993 sole-source justification
essentially lists the qualities Labor expects in a contractor. Labor lacks data to support
its contention that contractors maintain an extensive nationwide placement network and
failed to demonstrate that no other entity is available to bid on the contract. Labor's
Proposed justification for upcoming contracts has many of the weaknesses of the current
justification.

CONCLUSIONS

Job Corps is an expensive job training program that provides comprehensive
sérvices to a severely disadvantaged population. For over 30 years, Job Corps has been
helping young people who need and can benefit from an intensive program operated
primarily in a residential setting. However, our work raises serious questions about
Labor's claims about the program's achievements. Reported statistics on placement rates,
the percentage of participants who are vocational completers, and the percentage of
participants who obtained jobs related to the training they received are misleading and
overstate Job Corps’ results. The Labor Department and the Congress need meaningful
and accurate information if they are to effectively manage and oversee the Job Corps
program.

In addition, Labor has continued its long-standing practice of awarding sole-source
contracts for a substantial portion of Job Corps' vocational training-a practice we
suggested it re-evaluate in 1995. To date, Labor has failed to provide adequate support to
Justify sole-source procurement for vocational training services provided by the nine
national labor and business organizations. Labor's justification for sole-source
procurement does not explain or demonstrate the basis for Labor's determination of need.

We will be making recommendations to address these issues in a forthcoming report to
the Subcommittee.

“GAO/HEHS-95-180, June 30, 1996.

15 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


87

wiring. | am proud to work for Job Corps and for the Home Builders Institute. Job
Corps is a national program, and HBI is a national training contractor. | regularly
network with other instructors, We are a unified team, which | believe sets a fine
example for students. The national placement network in the field is essential to
my job. No matter how well my students learn skills, they need to find good jobs.
And that’s where placement coordinators come in. They find quality jobs for
students, not minimum wage jobs. We can network through different states and
localities. The national network of employers provided by HBI and the National
Association of Home Builders gives my students access to opportunities they'd
never know about otherwise. Just knowing | work for an association with 195,000
member companies makes me proud and excited. NAHB is the largest
professional trade organization for home builders nationwide. It’s a great
resource for me and my students.

1 myself am proof of the success of HBI's training and placement process. Since |
graduated from Job Corps more than seven years ago, | have always kept in
touch with my placement coordinator and my instructor. It’s a relationship that
doesn’t end when your training ends. My students are also proof of the success
of Job Corps’ vocational training and placement system. They fee! secure
knowing they'll have access to quality jobs when they graduate. That means
they're even more motivated to succeed and to learn all they can in my shop.

As for my life — it’s what I'd call good! I've got a wonderful family and a job that
means so much to me. My life now is a far cry from being on the streets in
Philadelphia with no direction. When | look at the faces of my students now, I see
them turning from “trouble” into productive people.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to you about my own Job
Corps experience and that of my students. I'll be glad to respond to any
questions you may have.


8

cause, as you know, we swear in our witnesses. If there’s anyone
else that would be as well testifying.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. Suays, Thank «ou. T’m going to move you down, Ms. Silva
so you can all sit in those same chairs, if that’s all right. And even
though there are three in one, that’s not the way we view it. We'll
get equal time in here.

Test wonderful to have our ranking member here, Mr. Towns.

Before inviting you Ms. Silva, to present your testimony, I’ll ask
Mr. Towns if he any—would you like to read your statement
and make a statement?

Mr. Towns. No; Mr. Chairman. I would just like te ask special

rmission to put my opening statement in the record. I apologize

for bei late. I was in a very serious telephone call, which I could
not break.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Edolphus Towns follows:]


JOB CORPS OVERSIGHT PART II:
VOCATIONAL TRAINING STANDARDS

WEDNESDAY, JULY 29, 1998

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES,
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT,
Washington, DC.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in room
2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Christopher Shays
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Shays, appas, Towns, Barrett,
Kucinich, and Allen.

Staff present: Lawrence J. Halloran, staff director and counsel;
J. Vincent Chase, chief investigator; Jesse S. Bushman, clerk;
Cherri Branson, minority counsel; and Ellen Rayner, minority chief

lerk.

Mr. SHays. I would like to call this hearing to order and apolo-
gize for my tardiness. I would like to welcome our witnesses and
our guests as well.

In previous testimony before the subcommittee, the General Ac-
counting Office identified four indispensable characteristics of job
training that works: 1, ensuring client commitment; 2, removing
barriers to employment; 3, improving employability skills; and 4,
linking vocational training to the local job market.

Today we continue our oversight of the Department of Labor Job
Corps program, focusing on the fourth element of successful job
training, maintaining a vocational curriculum that reflects current
and future job opportunities.

Last October during our hearing on the Job Corps recruiting and
placement activities, witnesses described an extensive system of
performance and outcome measures predating and exceeding any
required by the Government Performance and Results Act. Pro-
gram officials reported consistent improvements in key indicators,
including job placement rates and average wages.

In preparation for this hearing to examine the third critical Job
Corps component, vocational training, we asked the General Ac-
counting Office to look behind the numbers and help us examine
how the program measures success in providing modern job skills
to young men and women at serious risk.

dob s provides vocational training using the services of na-
tional and local contractors who offer courses in the trades and
skills needed to enter the world of work. Training contractor per-
formance is measured in terms of student outcomes: the number of
students who complete a vocational course, the number of students

qa)


42

At the five centers we visited, we questioned between one-quarter and two-thirds

of the job placements that were reported to be related to the training participants
received. (See fig. 2.)

SS

ry . © ry e
carters

ZZ areas

GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


73

SUMMARY OF TESTIMONY

Gilbert A. Wolf

National Administrator

Plasterers & Cement Masons Job Comps Training Program
July 29, 1998

Good Morning.

My name is Gilbert Wolf. I am the Director of the National Plastering Industry's Joint
Apprenticeship Trust Fund and the Administrator of the Plasterers & Cement Masons
Job Corps Training Program

The Plasterers and Cement Masons Job Corps Training Program has been in operation
for over 30 years. In 1965 a GAO report cited Job Corps for training in dead-end jobs.
As a result, in 1967 we were asked by the Department of Interior to operate a Job
Corps Training Program at three centers: Occonaluftee in North Carolina; Great Onyx
in Kentucky and Harper's Ferry in West Virginia. We now operate 60 training programs
at 39 Job Corps Centers throughout the U.S. Two of those are the original Centers at
which we began our program and our graduates continue to earn some of the highest
wages possible throughout the entire Job Corps program.

The details of our growth as a program cannot be covered in five minutes. But we can
isolate some of the most important factors as follows:

* Vocational Skills Training - Significant construction projects
‘on which students work and are expected to perform under
rigorous and realistic industry conditions;

+ Anestablished network of Apprenticeship Training
Programs which provide many of our students continued
training as they begin work;


82

-5-

They invite local employers, trade specialists and graduates
successfully employed in the trade to provide presentations,
inspirational talks, and discussions that will assist in instilling
confidence and increase motivation.

The center employs a "partners in placement” philosophy where
vocational and program support staff share involvement in student
placement.

Let me end my testimony with the stories of three successful
graduates of the Potomac Job Corps Center. | could give you
hundreds more, but these three are good examples.

The first young woman | want to tell you about is named Conita.
In keeping with Privacy Act constrictions, ! will tell you only her
first name.

Conita came to Potomac in 1993. She was a single parent with
one child. She had only a 10th grade education. She studied hard
and earned her GED. She also impressed our cement masonry
trade instructor, Mr. Rosella Scott.

Mr. Scott helped Conita get into the local Cement Mason’s Union
and helped her find a job with a local construction company. That
was nearly four years ago. Now, she has completed the
apprenticeship program and is a journeyman mason making $22
an hour.

Mr. Scott is a member of the local union and teaches the
apprentice class for the union in the evenings. Mr. Scott is
exactly the kind of teacher that makes Job Corps work. He
knows what the union wants and what local employers want. He
trains Job Corps students to exactly fit into the local employment
market.


JOB CORPS OVERSIGHT PART II; VOCATIONAL
TRAINING STANDARDS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT
REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION

JULY 29, 1998

Serial No. 105-184

Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight

ae

U.S, GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
52-520 WASHINGTON : 1999

For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office
Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402

ISBN 0-16-058378-0
“3





30

less of whether they can perform all of the duties and tasks of the
entire program. For example, in the food service vocational training
program, accomplishing only the tasks associated with the first
segment, that is, making a sandwich and preparing a salad, would
qualify a participant as a vocational completer.

As shown in the first graph to your left, Job Corps’ reported per-
centage of vocational completers nationwide, and at the five centers
that we visited, the bars substantially overstated the percentage of
participants who fully completed their vocational training pro-
grams, the shaded portion of the bars. Labor reported that in pro-
gram year 1996, 62 percent of the participants nationwide who ob-
taine 1 employment found jobs that matched the job training they
received.

At the five centers we visited, 63 percent of the job placements
were reported as training-related; however, the validity of about 41
percent of these job training matches was questionable. As shown
in the second /freh. we questioned between one-quarter and two-
thirds; that’s the portion of each bar containing the diagonal lines,
between one-quarter and two-thirds of the job placements that
were reported to be related to the training participants received.
That’s the entire bars.

Our assessment based on our review—our assessment is based
on our review of all the reported matches, and, for those that we
found questionable, information obtained from telephone interviews
with a random sample of 175 employers who had been reported as
hiring the participants. As an example of a questionable placement,
a participant trained in welding was reported as obtaining a job as
a welding operator through a temporary agency, but the employer
informed us that this individual was actually hired to shuttle vehi-
cles between airports.

With regard to the sole source contracts, labor has been award-
ing such contracts to national labor and business organizations for
vocational training for more than 30 years. It has not adequately
justified, however, procuring these training services on a non-
competitive basis. The main reason Labor has justified awarding
these contracts on a sole-source basis is that these organizations
have a national placement network and are better able than non-
national organizations to place Job Corps participants who com-
plete their training. Labor has provided no data, however, to sup-
Port the extent to which these sole-source contractors actually place

lob Corps participants nationwide.

Mr. rman, this completes my prepared statement. I will be
happy to answer any questions.

 SHAys. Thank you very much.
{The prepared statement of Ms. Blanchette follows:]}


89

that’s why we went into three pro; is just to try it out and see
what we could do with it. And what we found out was that we
could train these young people who never had a chance. And in
1967, there’s no way that any of the young people that we dealt
with would have ever gotten into the apprenticeship programs, and
this gave us that avenue to do that.

Mr. SHays. And, Mr. Price, you are someone who actually runs
one of the job—1 of the 113—you're the director of 1 of the 113 Job
Corps centers?

Mr. Price. That’s correct.

Mr. SHays. And you’ve been involved for how long in that?

Mr. Price. Approximately 14 years.

Mr. SHays. OK. And, Mr. Payne, you are someone who both went
through the program, and now you're a vocational instructor—

Mr. Payne. Yes, sir.

Mr. Says [continuing]. With the skills that you learned through
Job Corps and then actually improved and perfected as a laborer,
as——

Mr. Payne. That’s correct.

Mr. Suays. Yes. So I mean this is a good mixture here. I’d like
you to—I’m going to say to you one of my concerns about some-
times confronting people on these issues, that we lock into bad tes-
timony. And so what I'd love you to know is that we want to im-
prove this program. That’s the motivation here. But I am very per-
plexed that we have two levels, you know, a completer and an ad-
vanced completer.

In your own field outside of Job Corps, how do you—let’s start
with you, Mr. Wolf. How does the system work outside of Job

‘orps?

Mr. WoLF. Well, basically all apprentice programs work the
same, but they’re different. They have their own little avenue.

Mr. Suays. You mean plasters, electricians, all of them?

Mr. WOLF. Yes, all of the trades.

Mr. Suays. OK.

Mr. WoLrF. Apprenticeship programs, if someone—if you were to
ask someone to write a book on apprenticeship programs and how
they work, they couldn’t do it. They could give you a lot of paper,
but they couldn’t tell you how it works. You go into the apprentice-
ship programs, you get related training, and you work on the job.
You are a hands-on person.

Mr. Suays. Right.

Mr. Wo r. And when you're working, you're working with all dif-
ferent people in the trade. Years ago and even today, they move ap-
prentices around on a job, so they get a varied exposure to the
trades. And they progress—their wage rates are escalated as they
progress through the trade, along with their related training. And
when they get to—I think I'll just take a figure like every 30 days
or every 3 months, they will probably get a raise, but it varies from
craft to craft.

Mr. Suays. So time and skill are reflected in an increase in the
hourly wage to apprentices?

Mr. WoLrF. Well, an apprentice will make—a hairy guess, a rule
of thumb——


84

Mr. Suays. Mr. Payne.

Mr. PAYNE. Congressman Shays and distinguished members of
the committee, I am Aaron Payne, a Home Builders Institute Job
Corps instructor at the Old Dominion Job Corps Center. I would
like to tell you how Job Corps changed my life. I will also share
how I became an HBI Job Corps instructor.

I grew up in Philadelphia. Before I was 18, I had dropped out
of high school and got mixed up in gang activities and drug traf-
ficking. I was what you’d call trouble. When a good friend of mine
was shot and killed, that was my wake-up call. I enrolled in Job
Corps after hearing about the program from a friend. I spent 15
months at the Old Dominion Job Corps Center in Monroe, VA,
learning the basics about electrical wiring from my HBI instructor
Thomas Elliott.

Mr. Suays. I will just ask you to move the mic a little closer and
lower it down. I know it can get in the way of your reading, but
it will help us hear. That is better. Thank you.

Mr. Payne. I will always remember Tom. He taught me not only
the trade skills I needed, but prepared me mentally for the job site
as well.

I first began to understand the value of HBI’s national placement
network when I got my first job with Arc Electric in Chesapeake,
VA. I worked with my HBI national placement coordinator, Chip
Moser. Chip did much more than give me the job lead. He also
helped me prepare a résumé, get to the interview and get an apart-
ment and car when I accepted the job.

After that, I returned to the Lynchburg area and worked as an
electrician for Moores Electric for 5 years. That prepared me for my
next job as a supervisor for Raymond Jackson Constructors, also in
Lynchburg. During this time, I improved my skills and climbed up
the career ladder to the levels of foreman and supervisor.

I heard about an opening for a Job Corps instructor about a year
ago when Raymond Sackson Constructors was wiring a dormitory
on the Old Dominion campus. I applied for the job, and now I train
about 30 young people a year in electric wiring.

I am proud to work for Job Corps and for the Home Builders In-
stitute. Job Corps is a national program, and HBI is a national
training contractor. I regularly network with other instructors. We
are a unified team, which I believe sets a fine example for stu-

ents.

The national placement network in the field is essential to my
job. No matter how well my students learn skills, they need to find
good jobs, and that’s where placement coordinators come in. They
find quality jobs for students, and not minimum-wage jobs. We can
network through different States and localities. The national net-
work of employers provided by HBI and the National Association
of Home Builders gives my students access to opportunities they’d
never know about otherwise.

Just knowing I work for an association with 195,000 member
companies makes me proud and excited. NAHB is the largest pro-
fessional trade organization for home builders nationwide. It’s a
great resource for me and my students.

I myself am proof, of the success of HBI’s training and placement
process. Since I graduated from Job Corps more than 10 years ago,


12

Mr. Suays. Well, you were well represented by your two other
colleagues. One of the interesting things about this committee,
given the death of one of our members, we have an equal number
of Republicans and Democrats. Frankly, that suits me just fine.

Ms. Silva, you have the floor.

STATEMENTS OF MARY H. SILVA, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, JOB
CORPS; AND CORNELIA BLANCHETTE, ASSOCIATE DIREC-
TOR, U.S. GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE, ACCOMPANIED
BY SIGURD NILSEN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, AND BARRY
BEDRICK, ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL, OFFICE OF GEN-
ERAL COUNSEL

Ms. Siva. Thank you very much. Chairman Shays, Congress-
man Towns and other subcommittee members, I appreciate the op-
portunity to appear before you today to further the discussion
about how we can improve the Job Corps program and how we can
ensure that the vocational training we offer continues to be rel-
evant and appropriate to local labor markets.

I'm going to submit my complete written testimony for the
record, but I would like to summarize and highlight three areas
this morning. First of all, Job Corps’ mission. I think it’s important
that we keep the mission in front of us at all times, and our mis-
sion is to ensure that young people make a successful transition to
employment and also that they're enabled to achieve self-suffi-
ciency.

The students that we serve in Job Corps, carrying out this mis-
sion, 68,000 young people every year, represent a vital part of
America’s future. One hundred percent of these young people are
economically disadvantaged; 80 percent of the students we serve
are high school dropouts; two-thirds of the young people ages 16 to
24 that we serve have never held a full-time job. We serve approxi-
mately 72 percent minorities, and 58 percent of our participants
are young Inen.

With these participants, we strive to build winners one day at a
time, one student at a time. We use open entry, open exit, individ-
ually paced instruction in academic and vocational training areas
for these young people. We focus particularly on employability and
life skills, and we provide a holistic environment for these young
people to be able to achieve as much as they can in their search
for self-sufficiency. So that’s the first point in our mission and our
students.

Second, Job Corps is a national program. We have 113 Job Corps
centers in all but four States. We serve young people from thou-
sands of communities across the country, and because of this na-
ticnal program, we develop and implement systems to ensure that
our vocational training is relevant to local labor markets. We de-
velop systems, such as systems to select vocational offerings; sys-
tems to select vocational training providers; systems to develop
competency-based training for all of our young people, where they
get Individual training achievement records; and. a vocational eval-
uation system by which to hold our vocational training providers
accountable.

But in addition to developing and implementing systems, we con-
tinually try to improve these systems based on input from the


54

1 think that’s unfortunate, because there are people in my com-
munity who could use a program that would help young people.
But the decisions as to deciding for Job Corps I do not think have
been made on the merits.

Thank you. And I yield back the balance of my time.

Mr. Suays. I th: my colleague.

Mr. Pappas.

Mr. Pappas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing. In my district
there have been a number of manufacturing plants that are clos-
ing, probably a handful just within the last year, year and a half
since J took office. And my response to that has been to convene
people from the community, both from various programs that in-
clude some Federal involvement and also State-run work force in-
vestment boards in New Jersey, and meet with both the labor lead-
ers and employees and the business managers as well to try to help
these folks in moving on from here since decisions have been made
to close facilities.

Mr. Chairman, in your opening statement, and I’m just going to
quote a portion of it, Job Corps vocational training should be place-
ments in careers, not just temporary jobs. It’s been my experience
in just having probably three or four different forums and gath-
erings with these people to try to help them and try to see what
can be done to not just help them on a long-term basis, but on a
short-term basis. Even prior to my serving in Congress and county
government, where I dealt with these programs, it used to be called
other things, but work force investment boards. I think we do a
pretty good job in maybe longer-term solutions for people, but the
short-term solutions is where I think we're still missing the mark.

This is not just a criticism of Job Corps. I’m not sure exactly how
to deal with that. We're struggling with that in central New Jersey.

But hearing what I heard today troubles me about what is a
completion or what is not a completion. I understand that just as
in higher education, courses of study are tailored to a person’s in-
terests and their ability. This vagueness in responses that I’m
hearing certainly concerns me and certainly would concern, I think,
an average taxpayer.

I, too, want to be supportive of programs like this, because I do
think they make a real difference for people. I do think, though,
and I would like your comments, and I know, Mr. Chairman, this
is not the subject of the hearing, but I would like your comments
both now and in the future about my remarks of how we may do
a better job on a long-term basis than a short-term basis and what
consideration there is with regard to this program and others that
you may be aware of.

Ms. SiLva. Speaking specifically about Job Corps, one of the
issues that we're trying to do is meet with employers to try to deal
with immediate needs. One of the things that we have done with
two employers, one in Louisiana and the other in Texas, we have
dealt with them by customizing training so that they could work
with us and work with our existing vocational training offerings,
taking those as the basic and then customizing for their needs so
that we could more readily develop an entry-level training pool for
them. So we've done that.


96

with like plant maintenance. You're still considered an electrician.
It doesn’t matter.

Mr. Suays. I hear you.

Well, an electrician, you gain 71 percent before you're a
completer. When you’re a welder, 28 percent. Let me—what I’m
going to do is—yes, sir?

Mr. HUMPHREYS. May I just make one comment?

Mr. Suays. Yes.

Mr. HuMPHREYS. In determining the step-off levels, if you will,
in a particular trade, that’s not—that’s not a level that we arbi-
trarily make or set, or the Department of Labor. That’s what the
construction industry, the enters or the plumbers or whoever
say this is what it takes to do this task. You need to know this,
this, this, and that is your step-off level. But industry tells us what
that is; it’s not our decision.

Mr. Suays. I don’t even mind the term “step-off level,” you know,
and you have completed—you’ve completed up to that step-off level,
and you're ready to go out into the environment. I’m not even criti-
cizing the fact that you may only need 28 skills to be an initial
welder. That’s not where I’m kind of coming from. But I’d love that
welder to know more skills, and the gap between 36 out of the 128
skills. But I would love the program to have tremendous incentives
for that individual to go beyond 36.

But if I were the welder, I might say, I’m just not sure, there’s
too big a gap; heck, I can already be a completer at 36, you know.
I'm there.

Do you want to say something, Mr. Wolf?

Mr. Wo r. Yes. We have an advanced program, and our ad-
vanced program is set up primarily for a motivating factor amongst
all of our students nationwide. To get into our advanced program,
you have to have completed 70 percent of your TARs. You had to
have certain ratings on your interviews with the personal inter-
views with your instructors, and your driver’s license and all this
stuff behind you, and completed all the other programs that Job
Corps has, and then they get to go to this advanced program.

Now, the advanced program is set up with machinery that’s very
costly, and Job Corps can’t afford to buy it for other programs, and
we go around the country doing projects, which pays for itself. And
so it’s the motivating factor of all of our people to go to that ad-
vanced program.

Now, there, that program, if you look at our list, as far as the
value of the program, is the highest in our country and our pro-
gram, it’s 100 percent. They place 100 percent. And it shows that
they gain more money from that program, too. But that’s the way
re use that program. We have equipment that other centers don’t

ave.

For instance, we just bought a curb and gutter machine, which
is quite an operation. It’s a computer and all that kind of stuff like
that, a beautiful piece of equipment. They get the training on this
equipment, which they can’t get at the centers where they’re at.

Mr. Suays. It’s just very hard to evaluate a program when you
only have two levels, and evaluating the program isn’t just for
funding determination, but evaluation, it strikes me, will enable—
I think competition is the healthy thing, even among Job Corps


15

And because we are aggressive in maintaining and upgrading our training standards,
we have built a reputation. Employers know we will piace properly skilled youth on
their projects and job sites, Our Training Achievement Records (TARs) from which
student progress is evaluated, are updated continuously to keep pace with industry
demands. As a result, more often than not, union and non-union contractors alike are
willing to take a risk on our graduates despite their troubled pasts and potential for
difficulty.

‘When they graduate, we find our students jobs and assist in their search for housing
and transportation. On January 1, 1998 we enacted a 6 month follow-up plan that will
help us track our graduates through their first months on the job. Our network of union
apprenticeship programs also has a built-in tracking system that helps us with this
effort. The plan is national in scope and has revealed valuable information on how
family and other relationships are impacting job retention and performance.

In my thirty years of training Job Corps students, | have been rewarded time and time
again with the many accomplishments these young people have made. There is
nothing more gratifying than seeing a former student reach retirement and ultimately
receive a pension through the Labor/Management Collective Bargaining Agreement.

However, for me, the biggest reward has been seeing a student go full circle. After
graduating Job Corps, completing their apprenticeship, reaching journey status and
establishing themselves in the industry, they returned to our program, over a decade
Jater, to become an Instructor. That for me is the ultimate definition of how this program
provides a return on its investment.

There is no better example of how Job Corps pays for itself in the long run because we
train for careers that pay.

Allow me to thank the Chairman and distinguished Members of this Committee for the
opportunity to share in this testimony


36

industries. In both instances the employers had direct input into the vocational training
curriculum and donated equipment for the training. One program-the welding program
for the shipbuilding industry-involves students training at the Job Corps center under
conditions similar to a shipbuilding work site. The shipbuilding company tests the
students and then provides additional training at the shipbuilding site, In the automotive
service program, the employer provides the equipment, the instructor, and the training
curriculum. Both employers have hired graduates of these programs and are satisfied
with their relationship with Job Corps.

Two other regional offices have tried to increase employer involvement with Job
Corps. In one instance a regional office held a senes of meetings with representatives of
various employers and center staff to bridge the gap between the needs of private
industry and the Job Corps program. These meetings led to recommended actions and
suggested new strategies to resolve employer issues. In the other example, a regional
office is sponsoring a project to increase employer involvement in all facets of the Job
Corps operation, including curriculum development, customized training, work-based
learning, mentoring, identifying workforce needs, and donating staff resources and
equipment.

Individual Job Corps centers have also established linkages with employers. These
linkages include negotiating with employers to provide furniture and vocational training
equipment and contracting with employers to train and hire program participants. For
example, one center obtained a four-wheel drive sport utility vehicle from an automobile
manufacturer for students in the auto repair vocational training course. Local auto
dealers, familiar with the center's linkages to the national automobile manufacturer, have
also donated cars needing repair. In addition, local auto dealers have trained students
through the school-to-work program and hired many Job Corps program participants.
Another center holds monthly employer and community relations meetings during which
approximately 200 local employers and community representatives attend a luncheon
catered by the center's culinary arts students to discuss local employment opportunities
and donate funds to benefit Job Corps participants.

VOCATIONAL TRAINING COMPLETION AND
PLACEMENT IN TRAINING-RELATED JOBS

Data on vocational training completion and placement outcomes are misleading,
and as a result two performance indicators that Labor uses to evaluate Job Corps’ success
are overstated. Labor reports that about 48 percent of all program participants
nationwide complete their vocational training and that about 62 percent of the jobs
obtained by program participants relate to the vocational training received. Only about 14
percent of program participants nationwide satisfied all their vocational training
requirements, according to our review, and about 41 percent of the reported training-
related job placements at the five centers we visited were questionable. Labor needs

6 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


48

Ms. SiLva. They completed all of those tasks.

Mr. Suays. But they're the only ones who completed—so this is
where I’m going to get nervous with you. I am a supporter of Job
Corps. I’m willing to go to Congress and say the statistics aren’t
as good as we thought, but we should fund these programs, because
these are students who have dropped out of high school, et cetera.
T’ve been to one of your programs, as you know, and I believe that
this is a valuable program.

But I am hard-pressed to call anything more on Center A than
30 percent completers because the others didn’t complete the pro-
gram. If we start getting into a semantic battle about whether com-
pleting half the program means becoming a completer, and those
who complete the entire program are advanced completers, that to
me is saying someone graduated from high school when they only
completed the sixth grade. They didn’t complete it.

Tm going to listen how you respond to the other questioners, but
if we get into this kind of a battle, it’s going to be a long day.

Mr. Towns.

Mr. Towns. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Let me begin by saying that there seems to be some confusion
about the use of the term “completer.” Can you tell us the different
kinds of completers and what students must do to become a basic
completer as compared to an advanced completer?

And let me say that I get the impression from Mrs. Blanchette
that you have to be 100 percent. I remember when I went to school,
there was a thing called magna cum laude, there was a thing
called cum laude, and there was something called thank you,
Lawd. Maybe, Ms. Silva, you can sort of help us here with this.

Ms. SiLva. We have on our vocational complete—on our training
achievement records very clearly stated different tasks. And I don’t
mean to get into a disagreement in terms of semantics, but I think
it’s a conceptual framework where someone can be a completer as
a receptionist or as a word processor. That is a very fine occupa-
tion. It can be a very fine entry job, where someone can leave Job
Corps gaining the benefit of Job Corps as a completer in that area
and not have completed the entire training achievement record
which would be for a secretary.

We use the same training achievement record for those three cat-
egories, and it’s very clearly designated which are the tasks that
you need to have to complete the total level to become a secretary
and which are those that you need to complete to become a recep-
tionist or a word processor.

So it seems to me that that’s a very important distinction that
is more than a semantic difference, and I think it’s important from
my perspective to really be able to explain this.

ir. TOWNS. Right.

Mr. Chairman, I’m prepared to yield to you.

Mr. Suays. Well, I know in college that you have an associates
degree, and you might have a bachelor of arts, and then you have
a graduate degree and a masters, and then you might have a Ph.D.

ir. TOWNS. And you might get a certificate, too.

Mr. Says. You might get a certificate as well, when you’ve com-
pleted a certificate. You’re going to have to provide a lot more docu-
mentation to say that you’ve completed a Job Corps—your Job


53

and we have initiated major efforts with employers to involve them
much more fully in the Job Corps program ughout. We have
employers helping us revise and develop curriculum for our stu-
dents training. We have employers who are serving as mentors.

We are trying to involve employers as job coaches. We are cus-
tomizing training based on employer input and requests. We are
having business round tables in several different regions to be able
to sit down with employers and talk to them about how better we
can serve them in terms of our training program.

One of the things that we have learned from listening to employ-
ers is that they’re keenly interested in employability skills; that, in
addition to having occupational skills. Truly it is the softer
skills, employability skills, attitude, so to speak, that are important
to employers. We're spending a lot of emphasis on those kinds of
skill training, as part of the overall Job Corps program. We have
revised significan: ly our social skills training, which has 45 specific
skills that we are helping young people obtain in Job Corps that
we would call life skills. And these are skills that young people will
take with them to workplaces so that they will be able to be part
of employer teams, so that they will have better communication
skills, focus on attendance, punctuality, appearance.

We're doing major efforts in Job Corps in our vocational training,
but also in the rest of the experience since it is a 7-day-a-week, 24-
hour-a-day experience. We're focusing a great deal of effort on em-
ployability for these young people.

Mr. Towns. Thank you very much.

Let me just ask one more question, Mr. Chairman, and I yield

Tm concerned, and this is to you, Ms. Blanchette, that your testi-
mony today outlines problems in the Job Corps program, but states
that the recommended solutions will be addressed in the future.

Can you give us an idea of what those recommendations will be,
and also tell us what your time line will be in submitting those so-
lutions to the subcommittee?

Ms. BLANCHETTE. I can’t tell you today what our recommenda-
tions will be, because the recommendations are based on ongoing
work. As you are aware, this subcommittee has requested that we
look at the issues that we're discussing here today for the voca-
tional training component of Job Corps, and that is something that
we're still doing. In terms of—the report is due to the sub-
committee on or before November 24 of this year.

Mr. Towns. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Mr. Says. Mr. Pappas has graciously allowed me to recognize
Mr. Barrett, who needs to be somewhere, and would like to yield
to him.

Mr. BARRETT. Thank you, Mr. Shays and Mr. Pappas.

Let me make a comment I made before. I sit here and I have a
lot of difficulty with Job Corps, a program that I should be sup-
porting, but it will never cease to amaze me that the community
that I represent, which has 200,000 minorities, has many young Af-
rican American men out of work, has been ignored by Job Corps
forever. And it makes me have very little confidence in this pro-
gram, because I think the decisions have been politically motivated
as to where the Job Corps centers are located.


49

Corps experience by suggesting—in other words, I understand m:
colleague's comments about some thank the Lord we completed,
and I’ve been there. But the bottom line is they completed 12th
grade, they didn’t complete 9th grade, and some pass the program
well; some pass it by the skin of their teeth, but they have passed
it.

So you’re going to have to explain to me how, if you didn’t com-
plete the program, you’re a completer. And I mean, I’m listening
to the same words, and I’m hearing something different than, I
guess, my colleague is, and it’s extraordinarily misleading, because
T can tell you that we've looked at your statistics and thought that,
my gosh, you know, 48 percent, which is not an impressive number,
but it’s satisfactory, actually completed their vocational training,
and yet only 14 percent truly completed it. Some didn’t go all the

way.

Ms. Sitva. I can tell you that from the inception of establishing
vocational completion as an outcome measure and making cat-
egories between vocational completer and advanced completer, we
have had this designation where we were able to develop a——

Mr. Suays. I’m not disputing that this was here before you.

Ms. Siva. Oh, no, that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying
is that this is a system that we have used to develop curriculum
where we have an open-entry, open-exit class, where an instructor
is dealing with people at different levels within his or her class-
room, and the student is progressing as far as that individual stu-
dent can go.

Mr. SHays. And I don’t dispute that you’re going to have dif-
ferent levels, but——

Ms. SiLva. That can be called completer.

Mr. SHays. To me some are partial completers, and some finally
complete their entire experience.

Let me understand something. When someone participates in the
Job Corps program, what are they told? How long is the program?

Ms. Siva. The program can be up to 2 Phat and if someone
goes into an advanced program, they can go for a third year.

Mr. Says. OK.

Ms. SiLva. So the basic Job Corps program is 2 years. They go
through orientation in their—we describe the nature of the pro-
gram, the vocational offerings

Mr. Suays. Let’s just walk through this, and I’m going to try to

put myself—I’m going to try to have an open mind about this. Tell
us the different program levels that you have and the terms you
use.
When someone signs up, what do they commit to? Let’s start
with that: When someone signs up for the pro , what is their
commitment? They commit for 2 weeks? They commit for 6
months? What do they commit to?

Ms. SILvA. They commit to trying to get the maximum benefit
from Job Corps.

Mr. Suays. Which is what?

Ms. SILvA. It depends on the individual. If someone comes in
with a high school diploma, that would be different than if someone
was a high school dropout.


8

Subcommittee on Human Resources

Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee on Human
Resources, | am pleased to be here today to tell you just how
successful Job Corps is in meeting the objectives set for it by the
Government Performance and Results Act.

Today’s Job Corps students are being given the best training to
meet the demands of tomorrow’s workplace. The performance-
driven goals of Job Corps keep our eyes, our instructors’ eyes,
and our students’ eyes on the prize. The prize is an entry-level job
in a good career field.

How do | know it’s working well? 1 have been involved

with the Job Corps Program for 14 1/2 years. | started as a
placement specialist at the Charleston Job Corps Center in West
Virginia. Today, | am the Center Director of the Potomac Job
Corps Center here in Washington, DC.

Potomac Job Corps Center is contracted to serve 505 students,
80 of which are non-residential commuters.

The center's goal is to train students for gainful employment in
their chosen vocation. This all-inclusive program stimulates and
develops each student’s aptitudes and interests and maximizes
learning through competency-based instruction. It is the center's
intent to promote employability skills so that each student
develops an entry level vocational skill leading to employment and
upward economic mobility.

Vocational training at Potomac is an integral part of the students’
overall education and is closely coordinated with academic,
residential and counseling programs.


88

Mr. Suays. I just want to note for the record, Mr. Payne, that
you have obviously been very helped by the Job Corps am.
And now you're finding you have an opportunity to give back to
others who can be helped. It’s important that you be here and you
be a part of this hearing, as our other three elists. Our other
three panelists obviously take pride in the fact that they know
there are others like you who have benefited tremendously from

the program.

e purpose of this hearing is to do a number of things: one, to
determine how Job Corps determines its own success and how we
determine its success. I suspect our committee on a bipartisan
basis is going to weigh in as to whether we think this issue of
completers and advanced completers is helpful to the students and
whether it’s helpful for evaluation. I think we will be weighing in
as well as to whether we are getting an accurate indication of
training versus the job that someone ultimately gets.

Having said that, I’m going to say again, I believe that anyone
who leaves a program and gets a job is on their way, provided
there’s further mentoring and guidance and so on, because I think
almost any job is a plus for someone who's had no job, and obvi-
ously we need to get a handle on the whole issue of single source
or sole source.

Tm going to invite our minority and majority staff to icipate
and ask some questions. Because we're in the last 2 weeks of Con-
gress, there are a lot of other commitments for Members. Mr.
Towns specifically wanted me to let you know he had a long-stand-
ing commitment. But this isn’t going to be the first hearing, and
we're going to be pursuing this more, and staff will be helping us
in terms of writing the report.

But, Mr. Humphreys, my sense is you’re one of nine national con-
tractors, but the only business contractor of the nine; is that cor-
rect?

Mr. HUMPHREYS. I’m sorry, the only one?

Mr. Suays. The only business affiliation as opposed to labor; you
represent the business side, am I accurate or not?

ir. HUMPHREYS. We do represent employers.

Mr. Suays. Right. And, Mr. Wolf, you’re one of eight national
participants who represents the union side of this perspective as
well; is that accurate to say?

Mr. WoLr. I'll explain it to you. It’s very hard. Everybody grasps
it the wrong way. The national trust is a national trust fund com-
bined of labor and management, and its function was by the indus-
try to deal with apprenticeship training——

Mr. Suays. But, basically, just to pursue that, my view is that
you're involved, in a sense, in an apprentice program. In other
words, in the trades, in particular, your organizations are bringing
new workers. There are apprentices, they get trained, at the same
time you're providing insurance benefits for your employees, retire-
ment benefits in a lot of other cases. But this is a long-standing
system in which you bring someone into the process through an ap-
prentice program, correct?

Mr. WoLrF. Correct. When we first came in to the program, we
were really skeptical back in 1967. Times were a little bit different
around town here, and when we came in to look at Job Corps,


43

Our discussions with employers provided examples of participants who seemed, on
the basis of the reported job title, to have obtained jobs related to the training received.
‘These participants, however, were actually hired to perform duties unrelated to their
training; thus, they were erroneously reported as being placed in a job related to their
training. For example, one participant trained in welding was reported as obtaining a job
as a welding machine operator at a temporary agency, but the employer informed us that
this individual was actually hired to shuttle vehicles between airports. Another
participant trained in auto repair was reportedly hired as a petroleum and. gas laborer, but
the employer told us that the person was actually hired to clean residential homes. A
third participant received clerical training and was reportedly hired as a sales
correspondent, but the employer told us that the person actually sorted bad tomatoes
from good ones on a conveyor belt. All three of these Job Corps participants, on the
basis of the reported job title, had seemed to obtain jobs related to the training received,
but they were actually hired to perform duties unrelated to their training; thus, they were
erroneously reported as being placed in a job related to their training.

Labor's monitoring of reported job training matches appears to be inadequate.
Labor officials stated that Job Corps regional offices monitor all aspects of placement
contractor performance, but the offices have no fixed schedule for conducting such
monitoring. Labor officials stated that regular desk reviews of all placement forms, both
for accuracy and completeness, take place as part of the process of paying for vouchers
submitted by placement contractors. On the basis of our findings, this procedure may not
be adequate to ensure the accuracy of that reported information.

SOLE-SOURCE PROCUREMENT OF
VOCATIONAL TRAINING SERVICES

At the Subcommittee's request, we reviewed Labor's justification for using sole-source
procedures for procuring vocational training services through national training contractors
and determined that Labor's justification fails to provide sufficient facts and rationale to
support its claimed need to use noncompetitive procedures. Labor has contracted with
national labor and business organizations under sole-source arrangements for more than
30 years. Currently, Labor has nine sole-source contracts with national labor and
business organizations totaling about $46 million (see table 3). This represents about one-
third of the expenditures for vocational training activities in program year 1996.

13 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


CONTENTS

Hearing held on July 29, 1998 ..
Statement of:

Humphreys, Frederick N., senior vice president for training, Home Build-
ers Institute; Gilbert A. Wolf, national administrator, Plasterers and
Cement Masons Job Corps Training Program; Curtis Price, center di-
rector, the Potomac Job Corps Center, Washington, DC; and Aaron
Payne, vocational training instructor, Old Dominion Job Corps Center,
Monroe, VA

Silva, Mary H., National Director, Job Corps; and Cornelia Blanchette,
Associate Director, U.S. General Accounting Office, accompanied by
Sigurd Nilsen, Assistant Director, and Barry Bedrick, Associate Gen-
eral Counsel, Office of General Counsel

Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:

Allen, Hon, ‘Thomas H., a Representative in’ Congress from the State
of Maine, prepared statement of

Blanchette, Cornelia, Associate Director, U.S. General Accounting Office,
prepared statement of ...

Humphreys, Frederick N., senior vice president for training, Home Build-
ers Institute, prepared statement of ..

e, Aaron, vocational training instructor, Old Dominion Job Corps
‘enter, Monroe, VA, prepared statement of |. .

Price, Curtis, center director, the Potomac Job Corps Genter, Washington,
DC, prepared statement of .

Shays, Hon. Christopher, a

Connecticut, prepared statement of

Silva, Mary H., National Director, Job Corps, p!

Towns, Hon. Bdolphus, a Representative in Congress from the
of New York, prepared statement of ..

Wolf, Gilbert A, national administrator, Plasterers an
Job Corps Training Program, prepared statement of ...

ap

63

12


66

Job Corps Testimony

Congressman Shays and distinguished members of the committee, | am Frederick
Humphreys, Senior Vice President for Training for the Home Builders Institute,

The Home Builders Institute (HBI) is the education and training arm of the National
Association of Home Builders (NAHB). Representing more than 195,000 member
companies, the NAHB is the largest trade association in the world representing the
residential and light commercial construction industry. NAHB is a federation of over 800
state and local builder associations, The association is unique in that its chapter
affiliates are found in almost every community with a population of 25,000 or more
people.

The Department of Labor, in general, and the Job Corps, in particular, have worked in
partnership with NAHB/HB] for twenty-five years to address critical industry skilled labor
Shortages, while simultaneously offering productive career opportunities to some of our
country's most economically disadvantaged youth. This partnership has resulted in
thousands of America's youth learning needed job and social skills that result in
rewarding careers in one of our nation's largest industries.

The member companies of NAHB and the construction industry in general are faced
with an aging workforce that is not attracting enough young workers even as the
industry grows at a rapid pace. To improve the industries image among young career
decision makers, builders are working with guidance counselors and career day
sponsors to inform young people about the advantages of a career in the construction
industry. The industry is competing with colleges and technology- based industries for
the attention of people making career choices. However, the construction industry offers
good wages, the sense of satisfaction that comes from helping to create communities
and improve the standard of living for many Americans.

On every member survey of critical issues conducted by NAHB in recent years, labor
shortages consistently ranks in the top three. An unemployment rate of approximately
3% combined with an insufficient influx of new workers to replace those retiring or
leaving the industry continues to exacerbate the problem. Each year approximately
5,000 carpenters enter the industry from apprenticeship programs, yet 18,000 are
needed just to keep the workforce at current levels.

Our builders are working hard to help young people making career decisions
understand that the construction industry offers the best opportunity for many of them to
earn a good and growing wage for themselves and their families. For those with an
entrepreneurial spirit, there are few industries that offer the opportunity of starting their
own company with a limited initial capital investment. In addition, there is the pride of
being a part of building communities. Home ownership is still viewed as a major goal for
most people. For the majority of Americans, 53% of their net worth is in their home.
Young people who choose the construction industry as a career will be able to take
pride in helping to make home ownership a reality for themselves and for their fellow
citizens.


52

Mr. Towns. Why do you think the controversy? I don’t quite un-
derstand it. I agree with you, but why do you think people have
a problem with that?

is. SILVA. I’m not sure, but what I have heard is that there’s
a concern about it being a job training match. And what we did in
this particular area is assume that—again, job training matches
are based on coding, and I’m making judgments about the type of
training and the entry into the military. Milit jobs relate to so
many different types of occupations that rather than sorting
through each of them, it would be much easier to actually just have
a job training match attached to that. And that’s why we do it, and
that’s done automatically.

Mr. Towns. Let me go to Ms. Blanchette. Are you saying that ev-
erybody has to make a perfect score? I mean, is that what you’re
really saying?

Ms. BLANCHETTE. No, sir, it’s not. In fact, we have made no com-
ment whatsoever regarding the level of competence of people who
have gone through these programs. What we're talking about is
what is reported to the public and what is generally understood.

If, for example, you looked in the annual report of the Job Corps
program for program year 1996, and that report was issued after
June 1997, because the program year runs from July 1, 1996,
through June 30th, 1997, there is nothing in that report that would
indicate that when a completion rate is provided, that it’s not full
completion of all the components of the particular training pro-

gram.

So the Congress and for anyone else outside of Job Corps in the
public who would have this information would have no way of de-
termining that what is being reported as completion is really not
completion of all components of a program. So that is our issue, the
issue we have raised.

Mr. Towns. Ms. Silva, has Job Corps ever taken disciplinary ac-
tions against a national training contractor? Have any of the na-
tional training contractors ever been kicked out of the program,
and if so, what was the reason for their dismissal?

Ms. SiLva. We formerly had a sole-source contract with a na-
tional maritime union, and based on performance issues, we no
longer have that contract. So we used to have 10 sole-source con-
tracts. We now have nine. We eliminated that one based on per-
formance during the last 5 years.

Mr. Towns. The other issue is that there’re always complaints
out there about being able to match the person with the ieb, and
so what are you doing in terms of employer involvement, because,
looking in the paper, you see all kinds of jobs, and then you sort
of wonder if people are really talking to each other in terms of
whether or not Job Corps is actually training people that might be
able to take some of these jobs.

I recognize that in some areas it requires more than you might
be able to give. I understand that. But the point is that is there
any conversation going on between the people that are going to do
the hiring and the people that are doing the training?

Ms. SILVA. Actually there’s more and more of that conversation.
Indeed Job Corps has a variety of customers; certainly students are
foremost. But, indeed, employers are the ones that do the hiring,


101

at the vocational technical schools, there are virtually no construc-
tion programs left in the area of voluntary tech schools. Everyone
is caught up with high tech.

There are many of us that can’t be in high tech. I couldn’t be a
computer programmer if my life depended on it. A lot of others can.
For many of our Job Corps students, the construction industry of-
fers the very, very best opportunity for them to be successful, to
make something of themselves, to have a career, to earn a good
wage, and to become—if they have a little bit of entrepreneurial
spirit, start their own companies.

After you've been a carpenter for X years and get a pickup truck,
and the next thing you know, you're a small remodeler, maybe
youre a builder. You don’t have those kind of opportunities in the

igh technology industry, and you don’t in many others. So I hope
that Job Corps will continue to have a significant construction clus-
ter.

Ms. BRANSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. SHays. I thank you for your really fine questions and also
the responses.

Mr. Wolf, what you trigger in me is, first, I love your passion.
Your sincerity really comes through, as do all of you, but I appre-
ciated your statement. I would fove to be able to evaluate Job
Corps based on value added. It may be that you get someone so—
you know, if they weren’t in Job Corps, they would be nowhere. So
you may bring them up to a level where they come close to being
completers, as you described them, and that’s a significant event.

So I don’t mean to belittle that. That’s a very significant event.
So we may need to, in the process of making sure we are clear on
the terms, also find ways to recognize the benefit of Job Corps just
in terms of its social benefit.

Let me turn to Vincent Chase, who is a staff on the majority
side, and if he would like to ask some questions, too. My objective
is actually to conclude in 10 minutes so I can go vote and not hold
you up and then have you have to wait, so we’re going to try to
conclude.

Vinnie.

Mr. Cuasé. Thank you.

Mr. Price, first of all, I was very impressed with your center
when I visited you last spring. I was very impressed with the en-
thusiasm on the part of the staff, as well as the students, and the
various training programs that we spent some time in.

In your Job Corps career, you started out as a placement spe-
cialist. I’m curious to know, did you find it easier to place an ad-
vanced completer or a completer?

Mr. Price. During the time I was a placement specialist in
Charleston, WV, we had one of the highest unemployment rates
going. The economy was just terrible. It was difficult to place stu-

lents, period. But certainly the more skills that each student
brought to the table, it made it much easier to sell that student.

Mr. CuasE. OK. To our two national training contractors, can a
completer enter an apprenticeshi program?

Mr. HumpuHREys. Can a completer enter an apprenticeship pro-
gram?


26

students as Customer Service Professionals. Students acquire skills in handling calls concerning
credit status, billing, account balances and questions related to marketing, rates and fees. In this
fast-paced environment, a student may handle up to 150 calls per day. In the process, students
are gaining experience in computer applications, communications, mathematics, creative
problem-solving and teamwork, all within an environment of high work standards.

At the Cass Job Corps Center in Arkansas, the Intemational Union of Operating
Engineers has joined forces with a local construction company to combine classroom instruction
and practical work experience. Students participating in this work-based training eam $14.30 per
hour while learning to operate various hoisting equipment, convey appropriate hand signals, and
decipher load charts.

Last year, we launched an employer initiative in our Midwest region to increase employer
involvement in all phases of Job Corps operations, including training and curriculum
development. This effort focuses on recognition of Job Corps as an economic institution that
can benefit a business’ bottom line. The goal of the initiative is for employers to become
involved in the program according to their individual interest, needs and capacity. Potential
forms of employer involvement include providing on-the-job training and work experience,
helping to shape Job Corps curriculum, providing job shadowing opportunities for students,
addressing student assemblies on career possibilities and enabling academic teachers to see
firsthand how academics are applied at the worksite. Thus far, approximately 700 employers
have been contacted, resulting in over a thousand commitments fo some level of involvement.
These employer connections will be further developed so that Job Corps receives the maximum

benefit from this initiative, We are firmly convinced that employers provide Job Corps with the

13


22

printer for single or continuous feed). Once these and other associated skills are mastered, the
student would have met the requirements for the word processing step-off level and be fully
qualified for employment in that field. Ifthe student masters all other skills associated with the
remaining step-off levels in the TAR for the Job Corps Clerical Program, he/she would be
qualified for employment as a secretary.

The organization and content of each TAR are developed by convening Industry Advisory
Groups (IAGs) made up of representatives of the business community and Job Corps vocational
and education staff, These industry groups review and update the competencies that students
‘must master to obtain entry-level employment, the curriculum materials and instructional
methods to be used, the equipment needed to provide relevant training consistent with
technological advancements and necessary changes to step-off levels consistent with labor
market demands. These industry groups meet every three to five years for our larger vocational
offerings.

Regarding job training matches, that is, the relationship between the job a student is
placed in and the training the student received, we have been concerned with how some of those
matches have been reported. The system currently in use is based upon the Dictionary of
Occupational Titles (DOT), developed by the United States Employment Service, and the
Classification of Instructional Programs. The use of these systems is cumbersome and has been
difficult to manage and monitor satisfactorily. The DOT involves over 14,000 individual
‘occupational codes. It was clear that change was needed for Job Corps to improve the credibility
of our reported job training matches. Therefore, Job Corps is moving toward a new

occupational classification system known as O*NET, which the Employment and Training


105

Mr. SuHays. Well, thank you. It was a wonderful decision to have
all four of you here today. Thank you very much. Hearing closed.

you.
(Whereupon, at 1:06 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[e)


34

Vocational training is an important element of the Job Corps program. This
training is designed to offer individualized, self-paced, and open entry/open exit
instruction to allow participants to progress at their own pace. Overall, Job Comps offers
training in 100 different vocations. Although the number of vocations offered at any Job
Corps center varies, most centers offer training in 7 to 10 different vocations. Some
centers offer training in as few as 5 vocations, while one offers training in 31 different
vocations. Some vocations are offered at most centers, while others are offered at only a
single center. For example, over 80 percent of the centers offer training in business
clerical, culinary arts, building and apartment maintenance, and carpentry. On the other
hand, 35 vocations, including computer programmer, asphalt paver, barber, teacher aide,
and cable television installer, are only offered at a single center.

Many centers also offer off-site advanced career training at such institutions as
vocational schools, community colleges, and universities for participants who have been
in the program for at least 6 months. Regardless of who provides the training, Job Corps
requires all vocational training programs to use competency-based curricula that contain a
series of skills, or competencies, that participants must accomplish. According to Labor
officials, each vocational training program's curricula and required skills are regularly
reviewed and updated by industry advisory groups consisting of business, industry, and
training providers.

Program Goals in Response to the Results Act

‘The Government Performance and Results Act of 1993 is aimed at improving
performance of government programs. In a time of limited budgets, the Results Act is a
powerful tool that disciplines program management by requiring agencies to clarify their
missions, establish goals and a strategy for reaching them, measure performance, and
report on their accomplishments. The Results Act requires virtually every executive
agency to develop strategic plans that clearly define their mission and articulate
comprehensive mission statements that define their basic purpose. It also requires
agencies to establish long-term strategic goals as well as annual goals linked to them.
‘Agencies must then measure their performance toward the goals they have set and report
publicly on how well they are doing. In addition to monitoring their ongoing
performance, agencies are expected to evaluate their programs and to use the results
from these evaluations to improve the programs.

Beginning in fiscal year 1999, executive agencies are to use their strategic plans to
prepare annual performance plans. These performance plans are to include annual goals
linked to the activities cited in budget presentations as well as the indicators the agency
will use to measure performance in reaching results-oriented goals. Annual performance
plans connect the long-term goals of the strategic plan to daily activities. Agencies are
‘subsequently to report each year on the extent to which goals have been met, provide an
explanation if these goals have not been met, and present the actions needed to reach any
unmet goals. Labor's plan includes separate plans for its units. The Employment and

4 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


58

Ms. SILVA. Right.

Mr. SHays. So you are saying to me if I don’t get my GED, and
T fail everything else, but I do my welding, I’m a completer.

Ms. SILVA. You are a vocational completer, yes, sir.

Mr. Suays. Tell me why that is helpful terminology? Why is that
helpful? What does it tell the student, and what does it tell me?

Ms. SILVA. What it tells the student is, clearly, on the training
achievement record that that young person has, and has seen his
or her instructor check off each of the tasks, that that young person
has learned those things, has learned those particular tasks and
has completed all of those tasks.

The student also sees that there may be several other pages of
tasks that he or she has not completed, but they have completed
those tasks.

Mr. SHays. Now, I have 92 other tasks to go. How do you give
me some level of accomplishment that I have done something more
than being a completer, in your terminology, but not an advanced
completer? What gradations do you have in between?

Ms. SiLva. As far as the particular student, the student is a
completer throughout that gradation.

Mr. Suays. So from then on, I’m a completer. So I don’t get any
other feeling of reaching a certain skill level until I have done the
other 92?

Ms, SILVA. Well, you would continue to see your training achieve-
ment record that is kept and updated. You would continue to see
your employer check off each particular skill. These are on the
training achievement records that every student looks at and
knows how many they want to complete and how many they need
to complete.

So the instructor initials this and dates it, and so there is a track
record of the student gaining. And the student can see which are
the particular skills and can discuss with the vocational instructor
the advantages of continuing; what different types of occupations
the trainee may be able to get based on proceeding.

In Job Corps vocational training is a very important component,
but we're focusing on students understanding the need to get as
much as they can while theyre in the program. So the training
achievement record, by having these different levels, enables a stu-
dent to see that they can continue to go, and that is a very positive
and, I think, powerful incentive.

Mr. Suays. I think it is foolish.

Mr. Siva. OK.

Mr. Suays. I think it is foolish to not do something more than
that. To me, it is like saying you completed your high school de-
gree, and the next level of achievement is a Ph.D. We're not going
to give you an associate’s degree, we're not going to give you a
graduate degree, we're not going to give you a bachelor’s, we’re not
going to give you a master’s, we’re not going to give you anything
in between, but by the way, you can take note of the fact that you
have finished 3 years of courses, so you are a little closer.

So a student who has done 28 and adds 10 more says, basically,
I’ve got 82 left, with no other title, no other recognition.


76

Mr. Says. Mr. Price.

Mr. Price. Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee on
Human Resources, I am pleased to be here today to tell you just
how successful Job Corps is in meeting its objectives. Today’s Job
Corps students are being given training to meet the demands of to-
morrow’s workplace. The performance-driven goals of Job Corps
keeps our eyes, our instructors’ eyes and our students’ eyes on
prize. The prize is an entry-level job in a good career field.

I have been involved with the Job Corps Program for close to 14
years. I started as a placement specialist at the Charleston Job
Corps Center in West Virginia. Today, I am proud to say I am the
center director of the Potomac Job Corps Center located here in
Washington, DC.

The center’s goal is to train students for gainful employment in
their chosen vocation. It is the center’s intent to promote employ-
ability skills so that each student develops an entry-level vocational
skill leading to employment and upward economic mobility.

Employability skills development begins upon a student’s arrival
at orientation. During the second week of enrollment, while in the
occupational exploration program, students receive specific infor-
mation about tradeofferings. In addition to learning information
about job trends, qualifications, and salary ranges of vocations, stu-
dents get in-class, hands-on experience on mock stations.

Based on their interest, results of assessment tools administered,
and vocational counseling received, students select three vocational
offerings. Once identified, students visit these three trades selected
and participate in activities carefully planned and supervised by re-
spective instructors. Before placement in a selected trade, the stu-
dent returns to the instructor for an individual interview to assess
commitment and suitability for the vocation.

Based on their trade choice, the counselor and placement staff
meet with the student to set goals and tailor an individual employ-
ability plan. The employability plan is updated regularly and voca-
tional counseling continues throughout a student’s tenure in Job
Corps.

The Potomac Job Corps Center has a total of 15 vocational
tradeofferings. The Home Builders Institute provides training in
seven of these areas; the Operative Plasterers, Cement Masons
International Association provides training in two; the Transpor-
tation Communications Union International provides the advanced
clerical and transportation training.

The center operates four vocational training programs, and we
have two additional programs offered off center. The center works
closely with National Training Contractors personnel to ensure
that vocational training is coordinated and integrated with aca-
demic counseling, student records and placement. Each vocational
instructor’s evaluation includes the placement rate, job training
match, average wage and completion rate of students assigned to
the vocation. This encourages vocational instructors to take an ac-
tive role in placing students.

The center employs a partners-in-placement philosophy, whereby
the vocational and program support staff share responsibility in
student placement.


28

performance, to replace programs that perform poorly, and to upgrade curricula in keeping with
and in anticipation of--changing labor market needs.

New bipartisan legislation -- the Workforce Investment Act or H.R. 1385 -- which is
currently in Conference, contains provisions that would make the Job Corps program even more
successful. This important legislation -- which is a top priority of the Clinton Administration --
strengthens linkages among Job Corps centers, employers, the State workforce development
systems and the local communities in which they are located. It assures that applicants are
assigned to centers nearest to where they reside, with certain exceptions. It also assures that Job
Corps students learn occupational skills in demand in their “home” labor market areas. In
addition, the legislation establishes post-placement performance standards for Job Corps centers.

Mr. Chairman, we look forward to working with you to continue to improve the Job
Corps program. This concludes my prepared statement. At this time, I would be pleased to

answer any questions that you or any Subcommittee members have.


94

Mr. PAYNE. Well, I had been thinking about, you know, trying to
make some type of turnaround long before I considered Job Corps.
I didn’t know Job Corps was going to be that turnaround for me.
There was a friend of mine who had enrolled into a program, I’m
not exactly sure what center he had attended, but he had talked
to me briefly about that, and that was an option for me.

And my surroundings had a whole lot to do with my decision-
making. I mean, it was a lot going on as far as where I was living.
I was brought up primarily in the projects, and it seemed like
every day something different would happen. I would see somebody
die or somebody go to jail, things of that nature. So that was basi-
cally what helped me make my decision.

Mr. SHays. The Old Dominion Job Corps Center, is that the pro-
gram that you went in as well?

Mr. PAYNE. Yes, sir.

f Mr. Suays. So you’re an instructor in a school you graduated
rom?

Mr. PAYNE. Yes.

Mr. Suays. That’s kind of nice.

Describe to me, and then I’m going to come back, describe to me
why you think so few students become advanced completers as the
term is used?

Mr. Payne. Well, dealing with the electrical training for one, you
have various areas in the trade from residential to commercial to
industrial-type wiring. And you will have different types of elec-
tricians. You may have some—and you have some companies that
their foundation of work may primarily be in the residential field
versus some that may strictly deal with commercial or industrial.
And you're going to have that in Job Corps as a whole.

I have students that will do better in residential than maybe, you
know, on a first level. I have two levels on my training achieve-
ment record, which is an A and B level. Some of them will do well
in an A level and then complete the B level also. But some of them,
they will primarily stay at the A level status.

Mr. Suays. A level is less complex, it requires less training?

Mr. PAYNE. Yes.

Mr. SHays. OK.

Mr. PAYNE. Yes, it is. It goes over the basics of electrical theory.

Mr. SHays. And A level includes completion?

Mr. PAYNE. Yes, it does.

Mr. SHays. What does B level include?

Mr. Payne. B level is more of an advanced—move of an advanced
level of an electrician. When they leave from there, they are what
we consider a preapprentice, and you have that same format laid
out in the real construction world. You may, you know, be a helper
or up to a preapprentice, apprentice and, after your apprenticeship,
turn into a journeyman, a foreman, on up the level like that.

Mr. SHays. I want you to walk me thu
in the private sector?

Mr. Payne. That’s in the private sector.

Mr. Suays. Give me the levels again.

Mr. Payne. You may be——

Mr. Suays. You start out as an apprentice? Sorry.

Mr. PAYNE. No, a helper.

rough that slowly. That’s


‘ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS

Congress of the United States

Rouse of Representatives
‘COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
2157 Ravaurn House OrFice BULONG
Wasiiatow OC 20515-6149

OPENING STATEMENT
REP. ED TOWNS
SUBCOMMITTEE RANKING MEMBER

JULY 29, 1998

Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding today’s hearing on the Job
Corps program. The average Job Corps student is a seventeen year old
high school drop out who has never held a job. His chances of returning
to a traditional school or getting a job are limited because his reading
and math skills are below an eighth grade level. Unfortunately, he
cannot rely on a great deal of support or guidance because his family is
poor and dysfunctional. This is a young man who has never known
success or responsibility. Job Corps gives him both. So forgive me if
am an ardent defender of the program. You may know that it could be

better, but I know how much worse we could be without it.

This is the Subcommittee’s second hearing on Job Corps. The first
hearing focused on the performance of recruitment and placement
contractors. At that hearing, some people were troubled by Job Corps’

33% drop out rate. The drop out rate for private vocational training is


77

Let me end my testimony with a success story of one of our grad-
uates. The young lady I want to tell you about is Conita. Conita
came to the Potomac Job Corps Center in 1993. She was a single
parent with one child. She had only a 10th-grade education. She
studied hard and earned her GED while at the center. She also im-
pressed our cement masonry trade instructor Mr. Rosella Scott.

Mr. Scott helped Conita get into the local cement masons union
and helped her find a job with a local construction company. That
was nearly 5 years ago. Now she has completed the apprenticeship
program and is a journeyman mason making $22 an hour.

‘rr. Scott is a member of the local union and teaches apprentice-
ship classes for the union in the evenings. Mr. Scott is exactly the
kind of teacher that makes Job Corps work. He knows what the
union wants, he knows what local employers want, and he trains
Job Corps students to fit their needs.

I am proud of Conita and all of my graduates. I would love to
continue, but I will defer to the chairman and members of the sub-
committee to answer any questions you may have.

Mr. Suays. Thank you, Mr. Price.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Price follows:]


83

-6-

Another student of whom | am very proud is Morning. She, too,
was a single parent when she came to Potomac.

Equally proud of her is Ms. Jackie Berry, a Transportation
Communications Union instructor and placement coordinator at
Potomac. Ms. Berry helped Morning land a job as a contract
administrator in an office in Maryland. Morning is now earning
$10 an hour.

Nichiea came to Potomac with a high school diploma, but no
marketable job skills. Nichiea only sporadically held part-time jobs
before Job Corps. Her instructor in the security trade helped her
set goals and learn the trade. After completion, she took a job
with the GSA and is now earning a handsome salary in a full-time
position that she has held for nearly a year.

| am proud of these and all my Potomac graduates. | would love
to continue reciting success stories, but | will defer to you,

Mr. Chairman, and members of the subcommittee, to answer any
questions you may have.


5

Mr. SHays. At this time I would like to recognize a very active
member of this committee and a very wonderful addition to the
committee, Mr. Allen, from Maine.

Mr. ALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your calling
this hearing on the Job Corps program. I commend you for your
leadership in ensuring that our Federal dollars are spent in a cost-
effective manner.

The Job Corps is over 30 years old and is the primary Federal

to help disadvantaged youths receive the educational, vo-
cational and social skills they need to become more employable.
During this hearing, we expect to hear about success of the Job
Corps program and how to improve the program.
I believe we should always keep in mind that these are kids who
will have an incredibly difficult time finding a job unless they re-
ceive some help. These are young people who face multiple obsta-
cles to employment. Often they are poor, or high school dropouts,
or without basic skills, or have limited English proficiency or may
never have held a full-time job.

When evaluating the Job Corps program and how it operates, we
must also consider the alternatives to the way Job Corps currently
functions. We should not only consider alternatives to the way
service providers contract with the Federal Government, but also
what would happen to these kids in the absence of the Job Corps.

Prison costs over $20,000 per year. Welfare checks for years to
come are likewise costly. My point is simply that the Job Corps is
essentially an attempt to protect our young people from chronic un-
employment: So while we must examine how the program operates
and how successfully it meets its objectives, the bottom line is to
help disadvantaged kids develop the skills they need to find and
keep good jobs.

. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to learn more about
the Job Corps and look forward to working with you on this matter.
Thank you very much.

Mr. Suays. I thank the gentleman.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Thomas H. Allen follows:]


81

-4-

Job Corps carefully selects the trades offered at any center.
The prescriptive nature of the program makes sure those trades
are generating jobs - good jobs - for our graduates. When the
statistics show a trade is not generating those good jobs, the
program is placed on probation and watched very closely. If job
placements do not turn around in a matter of months, the trade
could be discontinued at that Job Corps center.

Trades are not discontinued wholesale. Job Corps looks at local
market conditions. Hypothetically, if security provides a very
successful trade at the Potomac Job Corps Center, but not at,
say, the Woodland Job Corps Center, then it can be discontinued
at Woodland and continue to operate at Potomac.

Each vocational instructors’ evaluation includes the placement
rate, job training match, average wage, and completion rate of
students assigned to the vocation. This encourages vocational
instructors to take an active role in placing students. Each
instructor is involved daily in working toward placing students
through training, job development and networking.

Vocational instructors are also required to stay abreast of
employment demands and requirements in their field through
participation on the vocational advisory council, memberships in
related trade associations, contacts with local employers, field
trips to local businesses, employment advertisements, etc,.

The primary responsibility of the vocational instructor is to provide
quality, work related vocational training to ensure that the training
leads to gainful employment.

Throughout the training process, vocational instructors give
students information regarding the benefits of employment,
employment requirements, acceptable work ethics, and additional
training and employment opportunities.


92

Mr. HUMPHREYS. Training and achievement record. We want
them to complete the entire pro; for the very reason you sug-

ested. Over the years it gives them more marketable skills as the
industry changes. We do that with every single person.

We recognize that among our students there are some individ-
uals who don’t want to complete or probably could not complete.
Maybe they couldn’t be a fine trim nter, maybe they can’t
ever be a cabinet maker, but they can be a terrific framer or a
rough carpenter or something else.

And so when an instructor like Aaron is looking at your students
or working with your students, it doesn’t matter if it’s a public
school or Job Corps, your students aren’t the same. You recognize
different skill levels and different abilities, and, therefore, you push
students as far as you can push them. But they’re not all the same.

Mr. SHays. Mr. Price, it would seem to me that you would want
a system that could take someone from being a completer to an ad-
vanced completer and be able to recognize them, frankly, with a
title as having achieved something. y don’t you? Why is it just
this one level and then a final advanced completer, who truly, in
my judgment, has completed the program? And is it just practice?
Is it just tradition? I don’t see the sense of it.

Mr. Price. It’s hard for me to totally explain that. I can explain
it from my center’s perspective.

Mr. Says. Well, you do it.

Mr. PRICE. Well, we try to take each student and have them com-
plete the entire TAR, the entire TAR. We try to let them know that
their options will be greater. It’s a fact that they will earn—that
their wages will be higher in most cases as a result of that.

Now, we are not successful in doing that all the time. Some stu-
dents opt to leave once they've completed a certain step-off level.
For those students, we counsel. That’s one of the reasons for bring-
ing back former students who've already been in the field and can
tell of real-life experiences of how they can earn additional moneys
by completing that TAR. But that certainly is our goal, and we try
to counsel each student to do that.

I can give you an example, if I might, very quickly.

Mr. Suays. Sure. You don’t have to rush.

Mr. PRICE. We had a student on a workplace learning experience
at another facility I worked at. He was a welder. He was ready to
complete the program and leave as soon as he had finished his
work experience. Once he got there, he said, well, wait a minute,
I have the skills to make as much as this gentleman makes over
here; the only problem, he is certified in a level of welding that I
have not completed. That went—after learning that, the student
came back and said, I’m going to stay longer until I can get this
additional training.

So it was for that student—it was beneficial to that student. He
had the opportunity and had the resources to continue to stay in
Job Corps. Some students, even though they realize that, may not
be able to, but I certainly recognize that the student will be better
off having completed more skills.

Mr. Suays. See, I wonder if your system doesn’t contribute to
that kind of attitude. That’s what I’m wondering about. I’m won-
dering if saying you completed something makes someone have this


60

Ms. SILva. I don’t know, in terms of the actual data. In terms
of the presentation here, I’m aware, and we spoke at the earlier
hearing about the difficulty of using the crosswalk, the existing
crosswalk for job training matches. And at the earlier hearing I
spoke about the fact that the Department was going to be using
this new crosswalk system, which we hope will Be far more man-
ageable and that we will be able to monitor far more successfully
than we have a system based on 12 or 14,000 DOT codes.

As I have said, looking at this, if these were truly questionable,
this would concern me significantly. Along with the introduction of
the O*NET system, I am also Introducing additional monitoring,
including what I think the GAO did, which is quite helpful, is the
telephone monitoring, because we have relied on looking at num-
bers and looking at statistics. I think getting telephone calls on a
random basis is very important, and we are committed to doing
that as we introduce O*NET, which is our new tracking system. I
would not be comfortable with this at all.

I will get the information from GAO, in terms of the specifics,
but looking at this I would not be comfortable with this at all.

Mr. Suays. Fair enough. First off, I will say to you for the record,
I will say for the record, I happen to believe that any job, even a
temporary job, is an important process of education for a person.
I may have said this at the last hearing, if I had ever said to my
dad, I don’t want to work at McDonald’s because it is a dead-end
job, my dad would have asked me how many hours | was working,
and if I had said 10, he would have said, son, it just increased to
15. Because he would have known it would have taught me to get
there on time; it would have taught me that one of your respon-
sibilities is to be of service to people. And you are of service; the
smile, the courtesy. All those things are job training skills.

So I do not in any way belittle a temporary job—in fact, I would
love Job Corps to be able to determine who got a job and then
evaluate the level of that job to the training they received—just as
I don’t want to in any way belittle levels of completion for partici-
pants in Job Corps because there are levels of completion. I just
don’t want there to be an assumption by the terminology that
someone has completed something that they have not completed.
They completed a part of something.

Is it fair for me to make an assumption that if there are, say,
five levels to welding, that if five represents the best, all 128, and
there are levels of participation in the work force in welding, that
the most advanced welder shouldn’t be allowed to take credit for
a job-related experience if it’s not up to the level of their training?

It is a hard way for me to ask the question, but do you get a
sense of what I’m trying to ask?

Ms. Sitva. I think.

Mr. Suays. I am just wondering if the pool is too large.

Let me just see if I can do it a different way. Does the Job Corps
limit the training-related job matches available for each step-off
level in a vocational course?

Ms. SILVA. No, if I’m understanding the question.

Mr. SHays. So it seems to me that you could have levels of
training

Ms. Sitva. Right.


56

Ms. Siva. Yes.

Mr. SHays. So someone could be in the program 2 weeks and
have completed something?

Ms. Sitva. I don’t think so.

Mr. SHays. How long would they have to be in the program to
complete something?

Ms. Sizva. I would say probably at least 90 days.

Mr. SHays. OK. And remember, you need to be accurate here. If
I find out later that you can be in a program and be in there for
30 days and complete something, your credibility will take a nose
dive. So I’m going to assume that you can’t complete anything until

lays.
Ms. SiLva. I would find it very, very unlikely that you would do
that. I cannot—

Mr. SHays. What likely would you complete? What would you
likely complete in 90 days?

Ms. Sttva. A basic level—depending on the skill sets that you
have when you come into the program, depending on your level of
education. Your previous experience would impact significantly.

Mr. SHays. OK. Let me just look under vocation. I will look
under welding. Under welding you have a number of tasks required
to fully complete training, 128. So that would be an advanced
completer?

Ms. SILVA. Yes.

Mr. Suays. Is that right? If you fully completed welding, you had
to do all 128? A minimum number of tasks required to be consid-
ered a completer, 36. Percent of total task required to be considered
a completer, 28. So if I am learning welding, there are 128 tasks,
correct?

Ms. Siva. Employers have designated, along with Job Corps in-
structors, 128 tasks to be what we would consider an advanced
completer.

Mr. SHays. OK. Now, if I do 36 tasks, I’m considered a
completer?

Ms. Siva. Yes, sir. I do not have that document in front of me,
but, yes.

Mr. Suays. It’s GAO’s document, page 8.

Ms. Siva. OK.

Mr. Suays. So it starts at the—it’s table 1, Number of Tasks Par-
ticipants?

Ms. Siva. OK.

Mr. SHays. OK. So what happens if I complete 75? Am I still a
completer, or am I a completer plus?

Ms. SILVA. You are a completer. You would be—again, if I had
the TAR in front of me, I would be able to say you would be a
completer of a particular type of welding. You are a vocational
completer, yes, in terms of the gross categorization of being a train-
ee, a completer or an advanced completer. Yes, you are still a
completer.

Mr. SHays. Wait a second, you gave me three choices.

Ms. Sitva. A trainee i: is someone that does not complete.

Mr. SHays. Then you've got a completer?

Ms. Siva. Right, and then an advanced completer.


18

measured are discussed in the next section. Vocational program changes are proposed when
performance does not meet expectations. Centers may also propose changes based on an analysis
of labor market information that indicates greater placement potential in a trade not currently
offered at the center. Centers and regions follow a detailed approach in documenting reasons for,
and making decisions on, vocational changes. Part of that approach entails working with
placement contractors and employers to confirm the existence of reasonable employment
potential. As a result of the 1998 appropriation, in which the Congress provided Job Corps with
$15 million for the modernization of Job Corps vocational classes, we have significantly
enhanced our capacity to provide students with vocational training that more specifically meets
the needs of employers, yields higher placement rates, and generates more stable and better jobs

for Job Corps students.

Comprehensive Performance Management and Accountability
Job Corps has developed and implemented a comprehensive management system to
evaluate the performance of individual vocational training programs, whether the training is
conducted by local providers or NTCs. The system establishes standards on an annual basis and
tracks performance for the following student outcomes: completion of vocational training,
placement into jobs or school, placement into full-time employment or training, placement into
jobs related to their specific training, and the average hourly wage received by students placed in
jobs. Each of these measures is assigned a performance range, and programs falling below the
low end of the range are considered to be under-performing and in need of corrective action.
Programs falling within the range are meeting expectations, and those that exceed the range are

identified as outstanding performers. The system is designed so that one-fourth of all vocational


AT

Mr. Suays. Let me start by asking you, Ms. Blanchette—those
two charts are helpful, but they’re a little confusing to me, because
in one case the plain represents the false, and the other the plain
represents what's valid. So I'm just going to take say “Center A”
under “Reported and Full Completion Rates for Vocational Train-
ing,” the first one, what I basically see is that of 75 percent of par-
ticipants, only about 30 percent actually were full completers.

BLANCHETTE. That’s correct. For that center, Job Corps
would have reported the 75 percent rate.

Mr. SHays. OK. And then under the second chart, about 65 per-
cent, according to Job Corps, were placed, but in actual fact under
“Center A,” only about 48 percent actually had placement?

Ms. BLANCHETTE. That’s correct, training-related placement.

Mr. Suays. This is a job that basically relates to the training
they had?

Ms. BLANCHETTE. That’s correct.

Mr. SHays. Now, that’s the one-quarter that was inaccurate. If
I go to D, you're almost two-thirds inaccurate. You're basically say-
ing about 25 percent actually had a job related to their work? I'm
under D.

Ms. BLANCHETTE. That’s correct.

Mr. SHays. OK. Ms. Silva, when you look at those charts, what
do you see?

Ms. Siiva. Let me take the first chart that deals with vocational
completers. Job Corps in its definition——

ir. SHAYS. Move your mic around here and talk to your mic, if
you would.

Ms. Sitva. When Job Corps develops its training achievement
records, it indicates on those training achievement records different
step-off levels, which are conside! completer levels within that
field of training. So that from Job Corps’ point of view, I look at
the gray part on that left-hand chart as what we would call ad-
vanced completers, which is clearly designated on all of our train-
ing achievement records and all of the information that’s submitted
to our data system as advanced completers. These are young people
who have completed all of the tasks on their training achievement
records.

Mr. SHays. The only question I would ask is: Why you would do
it that way?

Ms. SILVA. Because what we wanted to recognize is that we
wanted to be able to have a training achievement record that was
able to provide feedback and recognition to young people who com-
plete a step-off level that has been considered—the step-off levels
are developed through industry advisory groups, where we deal
with Job Corps professionals and employers where we determine
appropriate entry-level jobs from which students could leave Job
Corps and find such employment. And so in consultation with em-
ployers, we have come up with these particular levels.

Mr. SHAYS. Would you basically dispute the fact in Center A that
only 30 percent were true completers, that they completed the en-

tire Program?

Ms. Sitva. They completed all of the tasks on that particular
training achievement level, 30 percent of them.

Mr. SHays. They were the only ones who completed the program?


51

Mr. SHays. If my daughter sets out to get a degree in college,
and she does the first year, and she comes back and says, Dad, I
completed it, I’m going to say, Sweetie, you completed 1 year.
You’ve got 3 years to go. You have completed nothing other than
one-quarter of the program. You have not completed it. So that’s
my view.

Mr. Towns. Well, the point is that you have to understand that
there’s a lot of situations even on the college level where you have
technical schools, where you go and you spend 2 years and they
give you an associate’s degree, or you spend 2 years and they give
you a certificate, or you spend a year and they give you a certifi-
cate.

I think we have to not lose sight of what we’re dealing with here.
We're dealing with 64 percent of these students never having held
a job before. I mean, we're talking about just learning work habits
and skills and all of that. I think we should not lose track of that.
I think that’s a tough situation.

But let me just move to a question. I think that we probably can
come back to that. The sole-source contracts arrangements has
come under fire. I think that’s putting it mildly. Can you tell us
how the Job Corps students benefit from this arrangement?

Ms. SiLva. Certainly. We have nine sole-source contracts, and
students in Job Corps who participate in this training receive on
average 70 cents an hour more when they complete that training
than people who are non-sole-source-contracted vocational training.
And for those who are in job training matches, they receive 87
cents an hour more. We consider this a significant benefit to the
young people as they strive to develop work habits and self-suffi-
ciency for themselves and their families.

There’s a significant wage difference in the outcome for the stu-
dents from national-training-contractor-provided training and local-
center-provided training. That’s a significant difference. It is con-
centrated in the construction fields, although not solely, and this
enables young people to get solid training, particularly for those
young people who may not want to have desk jobs and work inside,
for people that want to be able to have a different type of employ-
ment history.

And this training provided by national training contractors gives
these young people the opportunity because of their national net-
work with local unions and business associations. It enables them
to have connections and be able for these young people to relocate
to obtain jobs in these very, very important areas.

Mr. Towns. Thank you.

Let me go to one other area where there’s a lot of controversy
about the fact that if a Job Corps member joins the military, that’s
considered a placement. I don’t have a problem with that. But can
you tell us the reason why joining the military is counted?

Ms. Sitva. Certainly. We consider that joining the military is a
fine career choice for a young person. It has good wages and a very,
very strong benefit package. And so we consider a young person’s
voluntary choice to be in the military a very, very fine employment
and career path for many.


80

-3-

The employability plan is updated regularly and vocational
counseling continues through out a student’s tenure in Job Corps.

Potomac Job Corps Center has a total of 15 vocational offerings.

National Training Contractors (NTC) construction trades with

Home Builders’ Institute (HBI) provides training in 7 vocational
areas.

{OPCMIA) provides training in 2 vocational areas.

Tri it munication ion rational provides

Advanced Clerical and Transportation Training

The center operates 4 vocational training programs on center with
two off center training programs: cosmetology training at Ballou
STAY high school and certificate programs offered at UDC.

The center works closely with NTC personnel to ensure proper
coordination with academics, counseling, student records/
placement, and other functions.

The center utilizes local industry personnel to provide expertise in
their particular fields through a vocational advisory council.

The council consists of representatives for each of the center’s
vocations. Council members are oriented on applicable Job Corps
documents and regulations. They review available equipment,
instructional techniques, physical facilities, curriculum, placement,
job match statistics, and work experience utilization. All
information is evaluated and suggestions made for improvements
and changes.


13

GAO, based on input from the IG, based on input from the Hill and
our own self-assessments. And there are several initiatives that we
have under way that speak to our improving our systems. Indeed
these are a national initiative to increase the employer involvement
throughout Job Corps, to introduce the O*NET job classification
system, so that we can better manage and monitor our job training
matches, and to increase the performance standards by which we
will hold our national training contractors accountable.

In addition, we are-—we received $15 million in our appropria-
tions so that we can enhance and modernize our vocational train-
ing beginning this year. So we will continue to improve these sys-
tems.

The third area really, recognizing the sizable Federal investment
in Job Corps for our Nation’s at-risk youth, we hold ourselves ac-
countable for performance. We are a program that focuses on per-
formance and results for the young people in the program. We have
been developing an outcome measurements system for our center
operators, for our placement contractors, for our admissions con-
tractors and for our vocational training providers. We have been
developing this system incrementally over the last decade.

In addition, we have goals, which focus in the short term on em-
ployment and wages and the longer term we look at job retention
and earnings. Again we hold ourselves accountable for results. We
look forward to discussing ways in which we can improve. We look
forward to implementing pending legislation on the Hill for work
force investment changes.

With that, I close my remarks and welcome any questions that
you might have.

Mr. Suays. Thank you, Ms. Silva.

(The prepared statement of Ms. Silva follows:]


55

In another area that we are developing a pilot is in the informa-
tion technology area, where we're trying to respond to needs that
everyone reads in the paper every day that there are employers
desperately trying to find workers in this area. We're working with
the Air Force research lab and with several private companies to
try to enhance a training curriculum, so that again we could put
something in place within a year so that we would start building
an entry-level training pool for these employers.

Within the Department of Labor, we have other employment
training p that deal with short-term needs and that deal
with areas that are particularly affected by lant closures, and per-
haps some from the Department who would be far more knowledge-
able than I could brief you on those areas. I would not feel com-
fortable, but we could arrange that. .

Mr. Pappas. I would appreciate that. If you could have someone
do that, I would appreciate it very much.

hairman.

‘Thank you, Mr.

you.

Ms. Silva, I had a little time to think of how I want to describe
this, and then I would like to go from there and have our dialog,
and then I will be coming to you as well, Ms. Blanchette.

Using the analogy of an associate degree, bachelor of arts, grad-
uate student and getting a master certificate, either be it a 4-year
master’s or after, and a Ph.D., I think it’s wrong to say that some-
one completed an associate degree if they didn’t complete it, but I
think it’s wonderful when someone has completed an associate de-
gree. I think it’s wrong to suggest that someone completed a bach-
elor of arts until they completed their bachelor of arts. And I just
keep going down the list.

It seems to me you have a completer and an advanced completer,
and basically a completer is someone who hasn’t completed every-
thing, but has completed something in your program, and Lord
knows what that “something” is. It almost seems to me in a sense
like you have merit badges, and I don’t mean this in a belittlin;
way. I realize that one of the things you want is to have people feel
they've completed something. You want that for their self-esteem,
and you want them to move on to the next level.

T'm willing to cut a lot of slack in how we do certain things, but
it is extraordinarily unhelpful to evaluate a program in which you
have two steps; one, a completer, and, two, an advanced completer.
It gives the program too much ability, in my judgment, to distort
outcomes. I mean, that to me is a no-brainer, because you can just
always say, well, they completed something, but we have no way
of knowing what. they completed.

Now, first, am I right to make an assumption here that you basi-
cally call someone a completer someone who hasn’t been a full
completer, but has completed something? Is that true?

. Sitva. Completed a specific number of skill sets, yes, that
are designated on the training achievement record. They’re printed
there, and these skill sets have been determined as completer lev-
el

Mr. Suays. How many different completer levels do you have?
Ms. SILva. Several hundred.
Mr. SHays. You have several hundred completer levels?


2

who find jobs directly related to their training and the average
wages of Job Corps graduates.

Last year Job Corps officials told us more than 48 percent of all
students completed vocational training, and 64 percent of employed
graduates were Placed in training-related jobs. For the most recent
program year, Job Corps reports 64.5 percent of all students leav-
ing a vocational program were completers, with 71.9 percent of em-
ployed students laced in jobs related to their training.

lowever, GAO finds these measures may seriously overstate ac-
tual Job Corps performance. The program defines completers as
those who finish only a portion of a vocational curriculum, in many
cases less than half the course tasks mastered by those Job Corps
calls advanced completers. This semantic device boosts program
performance figures but obscures an accurate view of vocational
training relevance and effectiveness.

The GAO found questionable, even preposterous, attribution of
training-related job placements. A student got a job as a janitor in
a waffle restaurant, and the contractor claimed the placement as
related to his Job Corps training as a bricklayer. A student trained
as a diesel mechanic was claimed as a training match after place-
ment as a stock checker at K-Mart. Of the placements that GAO
reviewed, they found more than 40 percent of the claimed training
matches tenuous or erroneous. GAO said oversight of Job Corps
contractors placement claims appears inadequate.

Over the past 34 years, the Job Corps program has achieved
much, and we expect much. Job Corps vocational training should
be timely, complete and matched to placements in careers, not just
temporary jobs. Program accountability measures should capture
the hard facts about the challenges faced by Job Corps in meetin,
its ambitious mission. No facade of inflated numbers should mask
the true measure of how well the program serves those who need
it most.

Albert Einstein observed, “Not everything that can be counted
counts, and not eve! ing that counts can be counted.”

To be sure, the Job Corps’ uniquely intense, residential program
and training in the soft job readiness skills so essential to success
can be of incalculable benefit to every participant who stays the
course. Nevertheless, the substantial national commitment to the
Job Corps program demands stronger accountability for results
that link current vocational training to tomorrow’s skilled jobs.

We again look forward to the testimony of all of our witnesses
today on ways to strengthen Job Corps vocational training and per-
formance standards, and again, we welcome them.

{The prepared statement of Hon. Christopher Shays follows:]


72

the industry demands. As a result, more often than not, union and
nonunion contractors alike are willing to hire our students.

When they graduate, we find our students jobs and assist in
their search for housing and transportation. On January 1, 1998,
we enacted a 6-month followup program that will help us track our
graduates through their first months on the job. Our network of
union apprenticeship programs also has a built-in tracking system
that helps us with this effort. The plan is national in scope.

In my 30 years as administrator, I have been rewarded time and
time again with many accomplishments these young people have
made. There is nothing more gratifying than seeing a former stu-
dent reach retirement and ultimately receive a pension through the
labor and management collective bargaining agreement. However,
for me, the biggest reward has been seeing the student go full cir-
cle. After graduating Job Corps, completing their apprenticeship,
reaching journey status and establishing themselves in the indus-
try, they have turned to our program over a decade later to become
an instructor. That, for me, is the ultimate definition of how this
program provides a return on its investment.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and distinguished Members for allow-
ing me to testify.

ir. SHays. Thank you, Mr. Wolf.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Wolf follows:]


27

ultimate reality check on our vocational mix, the content of our training, and our training delivery
methods.

It should be noted that in our interaction with employers, it has also become apparent that
one of the most important factors in making a hiring decision is employability skills. When
considering a candidate for a job, employers have informed us that they are looking for signs of
dependability, reliability, punctuality, a positive attitude, attention to personal appearance and the
ability to work as part of a team. These “soft” skills are viewed as being equal to, if not more
important than, occupation-specific skills. Job Corps continues to respond to these concerns
through the development, implementation, and revision of a comprehensive social skills training
program. This program includes instruction in over 40 specific work-related social skill areas
including managing conflict, dealing with change, expressing anger constructively, relating to
peers, making decisions, demonstrating leadership and maintaining a professional appearance.
To be successful in the job market, it is clear that our students must possess not only specific job
skills but the related social skills as well.

Conclusions

We recognize the challenges inherent in offering quality vocational programming as part
of the comprehensive range of services we deliver to disadvantaged youth. We are acutely aware
of our responsibility to update and modemize our training in accordance with technological
advances and changing employer demands. Our success in this regard will ensure that students
are well-prepared to be productive, lifelong performers in the job market. It is for these reasons
that we have systems in place to design vocational programs with input from employers and the

community, 10 assess the performance of these programs, to hold providers accountable for poor

14


10

center gym, added security lighting to the interior and exterior of all community center
buildings just in time for the opening summer break. The total appraised value of the
community service work is $40,000.

To complement and reinforce the training students receive working on VST projects,
NAHB/HBI has begun building training stations in all of its Job Corps vocational shops.
This innovative concept allows students to practice, at their own pace, all of the skills
they must master before they complete their Job Corps construction craft training.
Because these training stations are inside the shop, students daily training needs are
not effected by weather or the particular phase of a construction project. Students learn
more quickly by repetitively practicing certain tasks while they hone their skills. In
addition, we believe this type of training will motivate students to remain in training
Jonger so that their skills and trade knowledge are greater. This will make them more
valuable employees when they enter the industry and will facilitate future wage growth.

NAHBMBI is constantly expioring new techniques and strategies to improve its training
programs. Within the past year we have doubled the amount of OSHA safety training
required of all instructors. We have prepared and distributed detailed guidelines and
materials for safety training in all of our construction programs. We are currently
preparing instructor training materials designed to assist instructors in teaching students
to better manage difficult behavior. We will continue to work with the Job Corps national
and regional staff to improve and refine our training.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you about the benefits to Job Corps students
and the residential construction industry that result from the Job Corps construction
training programs.


63

Corps should have a different way of providing completions to en-
courage people to go from one step to the next.

I have a problem with this one step of completion and then the
next step of advanced completion. I think there should be grada-
tions. I think there should be completions at different areas that
are noted and reported. And I do think that, Ms. Silva, to your
credit, you do acknowledge that in terms of the job match, that
that needs to be looked at a little better, and that there may be
some points made by GAO that need to be evaluated and looked
at.

So with that, I will put us in recess. I am going to run right out
of here, and we will get to our next panel when we get back, and
thank you all for being here.

Recess.]

Mr. SHAYS. We need to get our witnesses standing, and then we
will swear you in.

Our witnesses, Mr. Frederick Humphreys, senior vice president
for training, Home Builders Institute; Mr. Gilbert Wolf, national
administrator, Plasterers and Cement Masons Job Corps Training
Program; Mr. Curtis Price, center director, the Potomac Job Corps
Center, Washington, DC; Mr. Aaron Payne, vocational training in-
structor, Old Dominion Job Corps Center, Monroe, VA.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. Suays. Let me just note for the record that everyone re-
sponded in the affirmative, and I will say to you all that this is an
investigative committee, so we swear in all our witnesses, even
Members of Congress, when they come. So we do it every time.

We are going to go in the order I called you: Mr. Humphreys, Mr.
Wolf, Mr. Price and then Mr. Payne. You will have 5 minutes. We
will roll it over, and so if you get stopped with the 5 minutes, you
have between 5 and 10. You will have a little flexibility, but we
would prefer you to be closer to 5 than 10. I really want you to
state what you have to state and have it on the record, and since
we only have one Member, we don’t have as many questions, so
your statements can be a little longer. Thank you.

Mr. Humphreys.

STATEMENTS OF FREDERICK N. HUMPHREYS, SENIOR VICE
PRESIDENT FOR TRAINING, HOME BUILDERS INSTITUTE;
GILBERT A. WOLF, NATIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, PLAS-
TERERS AND CEMENT MASONS JOB CORPS TRAINING PRO-
GRAM; CURTIS PRICE, CENTER DIRECTOR, THE POTOMAC
JOB CORPS CENTER, WASHINGTON, DC; AND AARON PAYNE,
VOCATIONAL TRAINING INSTRUCTOR, OLD DOMINION JOB
CORPS CENTER, MONROE, VA

Mr. HumpHREYS. Congressman Shays and distinguished mem-
bers of the committee, I am Fred Humphreys, senior vice president
for training for Home Builders Institute.

The Home Builders Institute, or HBI, is the education and train-
ing arm of the National Association of Home Builders. Rep-
resenting more than 195,000 member companies, the NAHB is the
largest trade association in the world representing the residential
and light commercial construction industry. The association is a
unique federation of over 800 State and local home builder associa-


20

Overall, Job Corps’ vocational training programs have consistently met performance
expectations in accordance with the performance goals mandated by the Government
Performance and Results Act (GPRA). During the most recently completed program year
(1997), this continued emphasis on student outcomes enabled Job Corps to achieve the following
results: 82.3 percent of all students reporting to and terminating from a vocational training
program were placed in a job or further education and training; 81.7 percent of those placed were
in full-time jobs or training; and 71.9 percent of students placed in jobs obtained jobs related to
their training. Those students placed in a job received an average hourly wage of $6.66 at the
time of placement. Finally, 64.5 percent of all students leaving a vocational program were
completers.

Overall, we are very pleased with the accomplishments of our training providers. It is
noteworthy, however, that students trained by NTCs had, on average, better outcomes for key
measures. Students leaving programs administered by NTCs had a higher rate of full-time
placements than students feaving training conducted by local providers (85 percent vs. 81
percent), were placed in a greater proportion of jobs related to training (78 percent vs. 70
percent), and received a higher average hourly wage (57.19 vs. $6.49). The wage differential was
even higher for those students placed in jobs related to their training ($7 $5 vs. $6.68).
Moreover, apprenticeship jobs accounted for 37 percent of all full-time job placements for NTC-
trained students, compared to 10 percent for students in all other center-provided training.

‘The wage area warrants further mention because the average student placed in a job
following NTC training receives nearly 11 percent more in hourly wages than students placed

from other center training. The differential rises to 13 percent when comparing students placed


37

complete and accurate program performance information for evaluating program success
and for identifying areas needing improvement.”

Mean That All Vocational Tramng Tasks Were Completed

Job Corps reported that in program year 1996, 48 percent of its participants
nationwide completed vocational training. ‘The information Labor uses to define
vocational completion, however, is misleading. Only about 14 percent of the program
year 1996 participants actually completed all the required tasks of their vocational
training programs, according to our review. Job Corps’ national data system has three
categories for identifying a participant's level of vocational training progress: trainee,
completer, and advanced completer. A trainee is a participant who has not completed
any vocational training component, a completer has accomplished at least one part of a
vocational program, and an advanced completer has fully satisfied all required parts of a
vocational training program. Participants in the last two categories are considered
vocational training completers. Thus, Job Corps' reported statistics on vocational
completers include participants who have only partially completed the required skills of
their vocational training programs.*

Each vocational training program in Job Corps has a comprehensive list of duties
and tasks that participants are expected to perform. For example, the clerical vocational
training program has 140 duties and tasks that participants must accomplish to fully
complete the program, food service has 109, and carpentry has 75. Each vocational
uamning program is divided into several segments. For example, in the food service
vocanonal traning program, the first segment entails making a sandwich and preparing a
salad (covering 39 of the 109 tasks); the second segment adds preparing breakfast dishes;
heating converuence foods; preparing meats, poultry, fish, and pasta; and cooking
vegetables; and the final segment adds preparing soups, sauces, and appetizers, as well as
food management skills, such as preparing a menu, setting a table, developing a food
preparation schedule, and conducting safety inspections.

Vocational training instructors assess participants’ performance for each identified
duty and task. Job Corps policy permits participants to be classified as vocational
completers if they accomplish the duties and tasks associated with any one segment of

"We also questioned the validity of 15 percent of the reported placements we sampled at
six centers in GAO/HEHS-95-180, June 30, 1995.

“Placement in a job does not depend on a participant's completing any of the required
skills of a vocational training program. Job Corps requires placement contractors to help
all participants with placement regardless of how long they were in the program or the
reason they left.

7 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


57

Mr. SuHays. And a completer is someone who basically does, in
this case, less than 30 percent of the total?

Ms. SILva. Yes.

Mr. Suays. So you're a completer when you've done 30 percent.
And what does the 28 percent represent?

Ms. Sitva. According to GAO’s chart, this is—the way I read it,
it would be that it is 28 percent of the total tasks, which would be,
I believe, 128. That 36 represents 28 percent of 128.

Mr. SHays. OK. So in this case under health occupations, the
number that you have to do is 179. You have to do 95 percent in
order to be a completer. And in the case of welding, you only need
to do 28 percent. What's the sense here? I’m trying to understand

e logic.

Ms. Sitva. The sense would be the number of tasks that this
group of employers and Job Corps instructors have designated as
essential for minimum requirements for a Agung person to be able
to fe. out and get an entry-level job in this field.

r. SHAS. So in every instance this is viewed as what you need
to do to get an entry-level job?

Ms. SILVA. Yes. There are a series of different levels. You can—
as I mentioned before, you can be a receptionist, or you can be a
word processor under clerical. To be a secretary, you would be an
advanced completer. That is a different level of occupation and of
training.

Mr. SHAYS. When you are in the Job Corps program, if I go in
and set out to become a welder, I’m learning other skills besides
welding, correct?

Ms. Siva. You are learning academic skills and social skills?

Mr. Suays. Right.

Ms. SILVA. Yes.

Mr. SHays. How do you evaluate whether they have completed
the nonwelding part? I’m one of the Job Corps’ participants. I sign
on as a welder. I have done 36 of the minimum number of require-
ments, so I am a completer of welding.

Ms. SILva. Yes, sir.

Mr. Suays. What a bad name. I have not completed welding. I
have finished some part of a basic minimum skill. But that not-
withstanding, what are the other things that I have to know? What
are the other things in the programs to be—am I a graduate when
T have 36 skills?

Ms. SILva. You are a vocational completer. And under the new
legislation, the new work force legislation, that is considered a
graduate. A vocational completer or someone attaining a GED,
under the new legislation that would be considered a graduate.

Mr. Suays. So let us just say—do I have to do well in the other
things in order to be a completer? Or if I do well in the welding,
I am a completer. Let’s just say I don’t have my GED.

Ms. Sitva. Under the new legislation it is either vocational
completer or GED or high school diploma. It is either, not and.

Mr. Suays. So if I get a GED, I’m a completer.

Ms. Siva. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHays. But there, that makes sense to me. I have completed
my GED. I have gotten my high school degree. I didn’t just go to
11th grade and have you call me a completer.


23

‘Administration initiated and is based on an analysis of the skills needed for a variety of jobs
within broad categories of occupations. This will make the determination of job training matches
more manageable and easier to oversee. This system is expected to be implemented in Job Corps

in the Fall of 1998 Further, we are prepared to institute appropriate monitoring procedures to

instill greater accountability for those responsible for reporting job training matches.

In addition to the numerical methods of measuring Job Corps performance it also should
be noted that students, as part of their vocational training, make a significant contribution to
center and community enhancement projects. These construction efforts and community service
activities enable Job Corps students to learn invaluable skills and benefit local communities in
the process. For the period between January 1997 and April 1998, construction projects
performed by students were valued at over $36 million dollars. In addition, our students
registered over 3.5 million volunteer hours in community service events such as blood drives,
food drives and cultural arts performances. Community leaders have expressed real appreciation
for Job Corp’s willingness to play a meaningful role in their communities. Job Corps centers are
a part of many communities and the centers and students recognize the responsibilities and
rewards of contributing to community development efforts.

Updating and Improving Job Corps Training and Curricula

To ensure that our vocational training proyrams meet industry needs for workers with up-
to-date knowledge and skills, Job Corps has, since 1984, followed a regular process for revising
industry-certified tasks lists, or Training Achievement Records (hereafter referred to as TARs),
for our vocational training programs. These TARs help us to maintain quality training and

accountability throughout Job Corps. Presently, student competency lists, equipment, and

10


90

Mr. Suays. You start out with this individual who comes—for-
get—forget Job Corps now.

Mr. WoLrF. You’re talking about Job Corps?

Mr. Suays. Outside Job Corps. Forget it. 1 want you to forget it.

Mr. Wor. A regular apprenticeship program.

Mr. Suays. Yes, a regular apprenticeship program.

I want to know how the trades determite success, and you go
from one level to another level to another level. Give me the termi-
nology from one level to another, besides just pay.

Mr. WoL-r. Well, as hands skills, as he’s evaluated on the job——

Mr. SHays. Hear my question again. Don’t you have titles of lev-
els of success through that program? Do you become apprentice and
the next thing, you know, you’re—if you’re——

Mr. WoLrF. Four years later you’re a journeyman—that’s not true.
A program could either be 3 or 4 years, and it’s scheduled out. I
don’t have all the documents or any of the other ones, but it’s
scheduled out in increments over the year. As you progress through
the trade, you go from the basics, and you're escalated up and up
and up. And that’s in your related training. And your hand skills,
the people who are coordinating the apprentice programs on the
Jocal level monitor them, report card per se, as to how they're

loing.

They check with the people that theyre working with, the con-
tractor they’re working for, and this is all evaluated by the joint
apprenticeship committee, which is both management and labor to-
gether, as to how they progress. In some cases if a young person—
and then they do this—you get more questions why not to do some-
thing from a young person than anything in the world, but they
evaluate. It’s like if they don’t show up, like——

Mr. SHays. You're giving me details. What I’m looking for are
broader categories here.

Mr. Humphreys, do you see where I’m going here?

And I’m going to come to you, Mr. Payne, because you’ve gone
through a program.

What I want to know is, you start out as, what’s the term, an
apprentice?

Mr. Wo Lr. Yes. Apprentice, a beginning apprentice.

Mr. SHays. A beginning apprentice. And then what do you be-
come; what’s the next level?

Mr. Wo Lr. We don’t have any titles like that. You’re an appren-
tice until you get done.

Mr. Suays. OK. And until you get done means what?

Mr. WoLrF. You become a journeyperson, a journeyman.

Mr. SHays. And once you’re a journeyman, a journeyperson, a
journeywoman, that’s the final level?
ed Wotr. Some crafts get higher levels where you can go, you

ow.

Mr. SHays. But have you completed the program before you be-
come a journeyman?

Mr. WoLr. No. When you complete, you become a journeyman.

Mr. Says. Yes. You've got to be a journeyman first.

Now, Mr. Humphreys, can you respond in any way to what I’ve
asked?


44

Table 3: National Training Contractors

Contractor Year of Latest award | Number of

initial award _| (millions) training slots

AFL/CIO Appalachian Council 1974 $42 542
Home Builders Institute 1974 $13. 4,090
International Brotherhood of 1969 $4. 1,280
Painters and Allied Trades

International Masonry Institute 1971 $3.5 910
International Union of Operating 1966 $2.5 450

:

National Plasterers and Cement 1970 $6.3 1,440
Masons International Association

‘Transportation-Communication 1972 42 380
Intemational Union

United Brotherhood of Carpenters 1968 $63 2,260
and Joiners of America

United Auto Workers 1978 $25 396
‘Total $46.1 11,748

Federal procurement regulations require several conditions to be met for an agency
to award a contract on a sole-source basis. These include (1) establishing the need for
services that can be only provided by a specific entity, (2) documenting through a market
survey or other basis that no other known entity can provide the required services, and

(8) stating a plan of action the agency may take for removing barriers to competition in
the future.

Labor used three broad considerations as justification for making sole-source
awards in 1993 for about a third of Job Corps' vocational training rather than using full
and open competition: (1) the contractor's past relationship with Job Corps, that is,
experience with Labor's Employment and Training Administration in general and Job
Corps, specifically, and thorough knowledge of Job Corps' procedures and operations; (2)
the contractor's organizational structure, that is, a large nationwide membership related
to a trade and its strong relationship with national and local apprenticeship programs; and
(@) the contractor's instructional capability, that is, the availability of qualified and
experienced instructors; ability to provide training specifically developed for the leaning

4 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


85

T’ve always kept in touch with my placement coordinator and my
instructor. It’s a relationship that doesn’t end when your training
ends.

My students are also proof of the success of Job Corps’ vocational
training and placement system. They feel secure knowing they'll
have access to quality jobs when they graduate. That means they're
even more motivated to succeed and to learn all they can in my
shop.

As for my life, it’s what we’d call good. I’ve got a wonderful fam-
ily and a job that means so much to me. My life now is a far cry
from being on the streets in Philadelphia with no direction. When
I look at the faces of my students now, I see them turning from
trouble into productive people.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to you about
my own Job Corps experiences and that of my students. I'll be glad
to respond to any questions that you may have.

Mr. Suays. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Payne follows:]


62

issue is whether the decision not to have competition was ade-
quately justified.

Mr. Suays. And, Ms. Silva, what would be the response of the
Job Corps on the whole issue of single source?

Ms. SiLva. The response of Job Corps is that we have sought
sole-source authority for these particular contractors because of
their experience with the young people, the experience with Job
Corps, their national network of associations.

ey can provide not only training, but also national placement,
so that they can have associations throughout the country from
which our young people come, and that those would be the primary
reasons for which they are uniquely qualified to be able to carry
out this training and placement responsibility.

Mr. Suays. I’m going to be voting. I would be happy to have both
of you make concluding comments. We have a second panel, and we
will get into this issue. This is really an introduction to us of what
I consider to be a very serious problem of, one, terminology; and,
two, evaluation. So we will be having dialog with our staffs and
trying to work together to resolve what I think is a big problem.

Ms. Silva, I am happy to have you make a closing comment; Ms.
Blanchette as well.

Ms. Sitva. My closing remarks really would be that the intent
of the Job Corps Program and the data we collect is to present an
honest portrayal of the success of the Job Corps Program. We
present this information, and while we may disagree today about
definitions, I would look forward to working with the committee
about definitions.

The intent of Job Corps is to provide maximum services to young
people and to report to Congress and to anyone the value and the
results of our program. No effort at all, no intent at all to mislead
anyone. And I would look forward, again, to working with your
committee to be able to resolve these definitional differences, be-
cause the program is very good, we are successful, and I would like
to be able to come up with a methodology where we could present
this and come to resolution about it.

Mr. SHays. Thank you.

Ms. Blanchette.

Ms. BLANCHETTE. Just briefly I would say we recognize that Job
Corps has made a contribution to society and to helping young peo-
ple who desperately need help because of their disadvantaged sta-
tus. But at the same time, in order to provide the maximum and
the best help to this group of individuals, you have to, as a pro-
gram manager, have information that adequately measures the
success of your Brogram. And as an external player, such as the
Congress or the GAO or the IG, you also need this information.

So to the extent that Job Corps can be more explicit in explain-
ing what it is it is reporting and reporting enough information that
is meaningful in terms of actual success, that would be helpful.

Mr. SHays. OK. I am going to say to you that I am stuck with
the bias that I do have; that there should be levels of successes;
that in each case there should be completion; and that I think that
we are not going to just get into terminology, but we are going to
get into looking at whether Job Corps and reporting—whether Job


86

TESTIMONY OF AARON PAYNE
BEFORE THE CONGRESSIONAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT

July 30, 1998

Congressman Shays and distinguished members of the committee, | am Aaron
Payne, a Home Bullders Institute Job Corps instructor at the Old Dominion Job
Corps Center. I'd like to tell you how Job Corps changed my life. I'll also share
how | became an HB! Job Corps’ instructor.

I grew up In Philadelphia. Before | was 18, | had dropped out of high school. | got
mixed up In gang activity and drug trafficking. | was what you'd call “trouble.”
When a good friend of mine was shot and killed, that was my “wake-up call.” |
enrolled in Job Corps after hearing about the program from a friend. | spent 15
months at the Old Dominion Job Corps Center in Monroe, Virginia learning the
basics about electrical wiring from my HBI Instructor, Tom Elliott. | will always
remember Tom. He taught me not only the trade skills | needed, but prepared me
mentally for the jobsite as well.

‘I first began to understand the value of HBI's national placement network when I
got my first job with Arc Electric in Chesapeake, VA. | worked with my HBI
National Placement Coordinator, Chip Moser. Chip did much more than give me
the job Ie He also helped me prepare a resume, get to the interview, and get an
apartment and a car when i accepted the job. After that, ! returned to the
Lynchburg area and worked as an electrician for Moores Electric for five years.
That prepared me for my next job as a supervisor for Raymond Jackson
Constructors, also in Lynchburg. During this time, | improved my skills, and
“climbed up the career ladder” to the levels of foreman and supervisor. | heard
about an opening for a Job Corps instructor about a year ago, when Raymond
Jackson Constructors was wiring a dormitory on the Old Dominion campus. !
applied for the job, and now | train about 30 young people a year In electrical



31

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee:

We are pleased to be here today to discuss Job Corps, a $1 billion program
administered by the Department of Labor that serves economically disadvantaged youths
aged 16 to 24. For over 30 years, Job Corps has been helping young people who need
and can benefit from an intensive program of education, training, and support services
operated mainly in a residential setting. Job Corps is intended to prepare youths to either
obtain and hold gainful employment, pursue further education or training, or satisfy
entrance requirements for careers in the Armed Forces. Job Corps participants spend on
average about 7 months in the program; per participant cost is on average about $15,000,
making Job Corps the nation’s most expensive job training program. Reasons for this
high cost include the program's severely disadvantaged participants, who face many
barriers to employment and its comprehensive services provided in a residential setting.

My testimony today focuses on Job Corps' vocational training services,
Specifically, I will first describe Labor's efforts to ensure the appropriateness of
vocational training and its relevance to local labor markets; second, I will discuss the
extent to which program participants are completing vocational training programs and
obtaining jobs related to the training received. In addition, as the Subcommittee
requested, I will discuss our examination of the appropriateness of Labor's use of sole-
source procurement for a substantial portion of this training. Much of my testimony is
drawn from a study we are conducting at the request of the Subcommittee as well as
from reports on the Job Corps program we have issued since 1995 !

In summary, Labor has several activities to foster Job Corps’ employer and
community linkages to ensure the appropriateness of its vocational training to local labor
markets and its relevance to employer needs. Labor has industry advisory groups
regularly review vocational course curricula to ensure its relevance for today's job
market. Labor has also introduced a school-to-work initiative designed to link Job Corps
with local area employers, combining center-based training with actual work site
experience at more than half the Job Corps centers. In addition, Labor involves local
business and community leaders in deciding which vocational training programs to offer
at newly established Job Corps centers. In addition to these national efforts, three of
Labor's regional offices have developed their own initiatives to improve linkages between
Job Corps and local labor markets, including modifying vocational training to meet local
employer needs.

(GAOMBHS-98-1, Oct 21, [007 Job- Coma: High Costs and Mined Results Raise
1h (GAO/HEHS-95-180. June 30. 1995): Job Corps:
With State Youth Tramung Inibatves (GAO/HEHS-96-92,

Mar. 28, 1996); and
Jobs (GAO/MEHS 96-140, July 17, 1906)

GAO/T-HEHS.98-218


7

Mr. Suays. At this time I would recognize another very fine
member of the committee and a new member, Mr. Kucinich. Actu-
ally you’re not new, it’s 2 years. You’re both experienced veterans
now.

Mr. Kucinich.

Mr. Kucinicu. A pleasure to join you. Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman. I welcome the second of our committee’s hearings on
dob Corps.

The Job Corps offers an intensive training program, emphasizing
skills that increase employability. This is an invaluable resource
for economically disadvantaged youths in highly disruptive environ-
ments. Job Corps offers an environment in which individuals who
wish to succeed are given the opportunity to do so, through hard
work.

In particular, Mr. Chairman, I welcome a close look at the per-
formance of national training contractors. Questions have been
raised as to whether NTC programs are any more successful in
placing Job Corps participants in jobs or apprenticeships than
other contract training programs. The figures that I’ve seen indi-
cate that NTC programs place a higher percentage of participants
in full-time jobs and in vocational apprenticeship positions.

I expect our witnesses will shed some light on this issue. As it
represents our Nation’s largest investment in at-risk youths, the
Job Corps program’s continued success is imperative.

Mr. Chairman, I’m pleased that the subcommittee has chosen to
devote its attention to this matter. And I look forward to the dis-
cussion. Thank you.

Mr. Suays. I thank the gentleman.

Let me just get some housekeeping out of the way and ask unan-
imous consent that all members of the subcommittee be permitted
to place an opening statement in the record, and the record will re-
main open for 3 days for that purpose. Without objection so or-

ered.

I ask further unanimous consent that all witnesses be permitted
to include their written statements in the record. Without objec-
tion, so ordered.

I also ask that the record reflect that the subcommittee has re-
ceived a large number of letters from employers, Job Corps stu-
dents and trainers in support of union national training contrac-
tors. The letters will be part of the hearing record and kept in the
subcommittee’s hearing file. So we will provide that.

Before calling our witnesses, I want to say up front, since it’s no
secret, I’m a strong supporter of Job Corps, but I really am going
to be very diligent about making sure that we are up front with
each other on how we are going to keep our numbers and how we
evaluate the program. I also want to thank, at the same time, Ms.
Silva, for appearing for GAO, because GAO is writing a report that
is somewhat critical. The purpose is not to do anything other than
really understand what this report says and does and go from

ere.

So at this time I would ask Ms. Mary Silva, national director of
Job Corps, and Ms. Cornelia Blanchette, associate director of U.S.
General Accounting Office, and if you would remain standing, be-


46

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my prepared statement. We would be happy to answer any
questions that you or Members of the Subcommittee may have.

(205380)

16 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


CCOMMUTTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY

ThoRas ALLEN

CConewTzEE On GOVERNMENT
MEFORM AND OVERSIGHT

Congress of the United States
Wouse of Representatives
‘Washington, DE 20515-1901

DEMOCRATIC 5 EEBING ANDPCUCY

OPENING STATEMENT OF
REPRESENTATIVE TOM ALLEN
BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
HUMAN RESOURCES.

JULY 29. 1998

Mr. Chairman, thank you for calling this hearing on the Job Corps program. | commend
you on your leadership in ensuring that our federal dollars are spent in a cost effective
manner.

The Job Corps is over 30 years old and is the primary federal program to help
disadvantaged youths receive the educational, vocational. and social skills training they
need to become more employable. During this hearing, we expect to hear about successes
of the Job Corps program and how to improve the program. | believe we should always
keep in mind that these are kids who will have an incredibly difficult time finding a job
unless they receive some help. These are young people who face multiple obstacles to
employment: often they are poor. or high school dropouts, or without basic skills. or have
limited English proficiency. or may never have held a full-time job.

‘When evaluating the Job Corps program and how it operates. we must also consider the
alternatives to the way Job Corp currently functions. We should not just consider
alternatives to the way service providers contract with the federal government, but we
must also consider what would happen to these kids in the absence of Job Corps. Prison
costs over $20,000 a year. Welfare checks for years to come are likewise costly. My
point is simply that Job Comps is. essentially, an attempt to protect our young people from
chronic unemployment, So while we must examine how the program operates and how
successfully it meets its objectives, the bottom line ts to help disadvantaged kids develop
the skills they need to find and keep a good jobs.

Mr. Chairman. | appreciate the opportunity to learn more about Job Corps and look
forward to working with you on this matter. Thank you.


40

Training. P Statist d sul

Labor reported that in program year 1996, 62 percent of those placed in
employment found jobs that matched the Job Corps trairung they received. Our review of
this information at the five centers we visited, however, suggests that this overstates the
program's accomplishments. At the five centers, 63 percent of the job placements were
reported as training related; however, the validity of about 41 percent of these job training
matches was questionable.

In checking this information, we first reviewed all the job placements at the five
centers we visited to assess the validity of reported job training matches. We then
verified our results by contacting a representative sample of employers who had hired the
Job Corps participants.” We questioned job training matches because either the job title
did not seem appropriate for the employer listed or the job title did not seem to relate to
the vocational training. We then interviewed a random sample of 175 employers who had
hired these Job Corps participants whose job placement was listed as related to the
vocational training they received but that we questioned. Placements listed as training
related but that we questioned included a participant placed as a cashier at a fast food
restaurant after having received secretarial training and a participant placed at a gas
station who had trained to be a bank teller.” Table 2 shows additional examples of jobs
reported as being training related that we questioned,

We identified 598 questionable job training matches at the five centers. We contacted a
random sample of 175 of the listed employers to verify information about the reported job
placement and used the results of this sample to estimate the number of quesuonable
matches. We estimate, at the 95 percent confidence level, that between 520 and 564 job
training matches are questionable at these centers.

"we also questioned Job Corps' policy of providing an automatic job training match for
any individual enlisting in the military, regardless of the assigned duties. At the five
centers, military enlistments accounted for about 5 percent of the reported job training
matches, although at one center about 13 percent of the reported job training matches
were for military enlistments. However, we did not include these reported job training
matches in our questionable category.

10 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


19

programs will be targeted for corrective action to improve performance. Training providers
understand this concept and, in most instances, work aggressively so that current-year
performance greatly improves upon that of the previous year, As a result, the number of
programs ultimately identified as needing improvement is less than 25 percent in any one year.
The incentive imbedded in this system drives all of our vocational programs toward continuous
improvement.

‘Any program that fails to meet minimum performance levels is formally notified about
performance deficiencies and provided with an opportunity to identify extenuating circumstances
that may have caused the shortfalls. Absent such circumstances, programs are placed on
probation for one year. If the training is conducted by a local provider, a program is allowed to
remain on probation for two consecutive years before it is replaced, particularly if there is
demonstrated improvement in performance. NTCs, on the other hand, are held to stricter
accountability. Programs operated by NTCs that are placed on probation have only one year to
raise performance to acceptable levels before being replaced.

Other evaluation factors applied to NTCs that are worth noting include: (1) higher
numerical standards for two national training contractors operating advanced programs in
automotive repair and business clerical occupations; (2) contractual requirements for NTCs to
place as many students as possible in apprenticeship opportunities; and (3) a directive to
maximize training and placement opportunities for female students. Further, beginning with PY
1998, standards for all programs offered by NTCs will be higher than those established for

training offered by other providers.


14

STATEMENT OF MARY H. SILVA
DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF JOB CORPS
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING ADMINISTRATION
BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES AND
INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
July 29, 1998

Chairman Shays, Congressman Towns, and Subcommittee members, thank you for the
opportunity to appear today to discuss Job Corps -- the nation’s largest and oldest comprehensive
residential training program for seriously at-rjsk youth. Job Corps offers a holistic approach to
addressing the academic, vocational and social skills needs of our students, all of which serve to
enhance their employability. I am pleased to provide you today with information on the
operation of Job Corps’ vocational training program, one of the three key components of the Job
Corps model. I will also address the selection of training providers and the extent to which Job
Corps and Government Performance and Results Act (GPRA) objectives are being met. I will
then describe Department of Labor initiatives to enhance Job Corps’ training curriculum and
ensure its continuing relevance to current labor market needs. In addition, } will present
information regarding National Trainmg Contractors (hereafter referred to as NTCs) that provide
training at many Job Corps Centers.

Many young people need assistance in making the transition to the world of work and
adulthood. This is particularly true of the more than 68,000 young people who choose to enroll
in Job Corps each year. By definition, all Job Corps students are economically disadvantaged
and face significant roadblocks to becoming economically self-sufficient. In other words, they

face challenges to securing and holding jobs that lead to successful careers. Nearly 80 percent of

participants are high school dropouts; 64 percent have never held a full-time job; and just over a


(ONE HONORED RIT CONGRESS

Congress of the United States

Bouse of Representatives
‘COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
2157 Ravounw House Orrice Bux owe
Wasranaton OC 20515-6149

‘SUBCOMMITTEE OW HUMAN RESOURCES
‘Chnetopher Shays, Conpacticut

‘Chewman
aa 8:72 Revo Bulg
ington, 0.C. 20818
wera g0D 225-2840
Fax 202 226-2382
Mai he groc@mal.nouse.g00

Statement of Rep. Christopher Shays
July 29, 1998

In previous testimony before this Subcommitte, the General Accounting Office (GAO)
identified four indispensable characteristics of job training that works: 1) ensuring client
commitment; 2) removing barriers to employment; 3) improving employability skills, and; 4)
linking vocational training to the local job market.

Today we continue our oversight of the Department of Labor's (Dol.) Job Corps
program, focusing on the fourth element of successful job training: maintaining a vocational
‘curriculum that reflects current and furure job opportunities.

Last October, during our hearing on the Job Corps recruiting and placement activities,
witnesses desctibed an extensive system of performance and outcome measures predating and
exceeding any required by the Government Performance and Results Act (GPRA or “Results
Act"). Program officials reported consistent improvements in key indicators, including job
placement rates and average wages.

In preparation for this hearing to examine the third critical Job Corps component,
‘vocational training, we asked the General Accounting Office (GAO) to look behind the numbers,
‘and help us examine how the program measures success in providing modern job skills to young
‘men and women at serious risk

Job Corps provides vocational training using the services of national and local contractors
who offer courses in the trades and skills needed to enter the world of work. Training contractor
performance is measured in terms of student outcomes: the number of students who complete a
vocational course, the number of students who find jobs directly related to their training, and the
average wages of Job Corps graduates.


69

time with experienced instructors at existing programs to learn classroom management
and adult learning practices and techniques. On going training in new industry practices,
products and techniques are provided annually. We pay the cost for college course
work needed to achieve state teacher certification.

Working with the US DOL Job Corps government staff, Job Corps center operators and
community-based organizations, NAHB/HBI is constantly seeking ways to accelerate
and improve its training techniques. On Job Corps centers, vocational skills training
projects (VST) are designed to replicate actual construction site working conditions.
Students and their instructors annually perform millions of dollars worth of rehabilitation
work on Job Corps buildings. In addition, construction work on community projects and
Habitat for Humanity houses performed by Job Corps students saves local communities
money while strengthening the ties between the Job Corps center, staff and students
and local citizens.

NAHB/HB! students continue their tradition of community projects and service at all
centers where we train Among recent community projects by students was disaster
relief assistance in Roswell, New Mexico. When twin tornados touched down in Chaves
County, New Mexico five families lost their homes and many others suffered damages.
NAHB/HBI's building and apartment maintenance instructor assembled a construction
crew of dedicated volunteers from the Roswell Job Corps Center to clear the debris and
repair the damage. The students’ good work was featured on local television and radio
Stations.

When more than 4,000 were displaced by floods in Minot, North Dakota the Quentin
Burdick Job Corps Center joined civic leaders and the American Red Cross to help
neighbors. Staff and students including NAHB/HB!'s building and apartment
maintenance class traveled daily from the center to load food onto trucks at the
shopping mall, unload trucks at the Salvation Army headquarters, deliver supplies to the
town civic center and prepare food at the soup kitchen. In total more than 2,000 hours
of assistance were provided.

At the Albuquerque Job Corps Center, the HBI building and apartment maintenance,
carpentry, electrical and plumbing programs are rehabing all dorm bathrooms on
center. They will be adding square footage and fixtures to eight of the eleven
bathrooms. All eleven will be gutted with new walls, ceilings, floors and fixtures
installed. This project will be accomplished for an approximate cost of $350,000 at an
estimated appraised value of $920,000 once completed. In addition to saving the
government a substantial amount of money and improving the quality of life for students
‘on center this project will provide excellent and diversified hands-on training
opportunities for a variety of trades.

The construction programs at the Roswell Job Center recently completed a total rehab
of the city Boys’ and Girls’ Community Center on Garden Street. They ran extensive
underground gas lines to replace those that were leaking, refinished the community


24

curriculum materials are reviewed and updated on a three- to five-year cycle, as dictated by
industry changes and the volume of students served by a given trade. Vocational programs
targeted for updating are discussed at national Industry Advisory Group meetings, which are
attended by industry representatives and Job Corps vocational and academic instructors.
Beginning this year, there will be as many as five employer representatives participating in
discussions related to each trade being addressed. Our practice is to update the curricula for five
currently-offered vocations each year and develop competency statements and related curricula
for two to five new occupational offerings. New programs are selected through an analysis of
labor market information that is used to identify new occupations and high-volume trades. This
information is then made available to all of our centers, and they are encouraged to assess their
‘own vocational mix and local labor market needs and initiate changes as warranted.

Job Corps has also initiated a vocational competency testing project to better prepare our
students to compete in the workforce. The tests are being developed by an independent,
impartial third party and will help center training staff determine whether students are learning
what they are taught. The tests will also serve to identify student training deficiencies and
instructional content areas that require improvement, so that immediate remedial action can be
initiated. Tests are developed in accordance with standards established by the American
Psychological Association, with full participation by industry representatives and Job Corps
instructors. By the end of 1999, competency tests will be in place for 17 trades, accounting for
over 80 percent of the training slots offered by Job Corps.

Through project-based leaming, structured learning on the job, and other active leaming

methods, centers are improving the learning process and the long-term employability prospects

nN


10

50%. Therefore, Job Corps has a better retention rate than private trade
schools. Additionally, Job Corps students who complete their vocational
program, are five times more likely to obtain a training related job with a
wage that is 25% higher than non-Job Corps attendees. I said then and I
will say again, instead of looking at the 33% drop out rate, focus on the

67% success rate.

Now today, we are here to talk about sole source contracts. Mr.
Chairman, contracts that are awarded without full and open competition
raise questions. However, the Department of Labor requested bids for
these contracts. The solicitation was publicly advertised with clear
guidance on the contract requirements. These contracts were not

secretly solicited or awarded.

Mr. Chairman, to consider whether a sole source award was
justified, we should first determine whether there are any credible
competitors. One source of competition are the various trade schools
throughout the country. According to the U.S. Department of Education,
the average costs for tuition and fees at a trade school is $6,720 per year.
Most programs are for two years which would bring the total tuition cost
to $13,440. With even modest living expenses of $5000 per year, this
raises the total costs above the Job Corps program. Further, Mr.

Chairman, the effectiveness of these schools is largely unknown because


29

Mr. SHays. We will now go to Ms. Blanchette and hear your com-
ments, and then we will try to sort out where we're in agreement
and where we're in disagreement.

Ms. BLANCHETTE. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee,
we're pleased to be here today to assist the subcommittee in its
oversight of Job Corps. Accompanying me are Sigurd Nilsen, who
leads our Job Corps work, and Barry Bedrick of our Office of Gen-
eral Counsel.

My testimony will focus on Job Corps’ vocational training serv-
ices. Specifically, I will first describe Labor’s efforts to ensure the
appropriateness of vocational training and its relevance to local
labor markets. Second, I will discuss the extent to which program
participants are completing vocational training programs and ob-
taining jobs related to the training received. In: addition, as the
subcommittee requested, I will discuss the appropriateness of La-
bor’s use of sole source procurement for a substantial portion of
this training. My testimony is primarily based on a study we are
conducting at the request of the subcommittee.

To ensure the appropriateness of Job Corps’s vocational training
to local labor markets and its relevancy to employer needs, Labor
has several activities to foster Job Corps employer and community
linkages. For example, Labor uses industry advisory groups regu-
larly to review vocational course curricula. Labor also fas a school-
to-work initiative to link Job Corps with local employers, an initia-
tive that has combined center-based training with actual work site
experience at more than half of the Job Corps centers.

in addition, Labor involves local business and community leaders
in deciding which vocational training programs to offer at newly es-
tablished Job Corps centers. For example, vocational training deci-
sions for one new center we visited were made with input from rep-
resentatives of the mayor's office, local education agencies, local
businesses, and other community-based organizations.

Along with these national efforts, three of Labor's regional offices
have developed their own initiatives to improve linkages between
Job Corps and local labor markets, and individual Job Corps cen-
ters have established linkages with employers. One regional office,
for example, has two such initiatives. One, a welding program for
the shipbuilding industry involves training at the Job €orps center
in conditions similar to a shipbuilding worksite, testing by a ship-
building company and additional training at the shipbuilding site.
Under the other initiative, an automotive service program, the em-
ployer provides the equipment, the instructor, and the training cur-
ricula.

Job Corps reported that in program year 1996, 48 percent of its

articipants nationwide completed vocational training. However,
bor’s definition of vocational completion is misleading. Only
about 14 percent of the program year 1996 participants actually
completed all of the required tasks of their vocational training pro-

gram.

Each vocational training program in Job Corps has a comprehen-
sive list of duties and tasks that participants are expected to per-
form. Job Corps policy permits participants to be classified as voca-
tional completers if they accomplish the duties and tasks associated
with any one segment of the vocational training program, regard-


98

So anyway, Ms. Branson, you have the floor.

Let me just state for the record, we’re allowing staff to partici-
ate, because it’s very helpful, particularly when we don’t have
lembers present. I like to do that, but just don’t tell the Speaker.

Ms. BRANSON. I won’t if you won't.

Mr. SHays. You won't if I won't.

Ms. BRANSON. You know, I think that maybe the problem is a
difference between counting and training. And I understand, I
think, where Mr. Shays is going. If every! ody is not counting the
same thing, then ultimately you don’t know if everyone is training
the same way. Is that part of it?

Mr. Says. Yes, that’s part of it.

Ms. BRANSON. OK. So I don’t know whether Job Corps should do
better counting or whether it’s up to the centers to do better train-
ing. It doesn’t sound like the training component is the problem.
It sounds like the counting component is a problem, and whether
or not one can develop training criteria nationwide that can all be
counted in a systematic way. I think that’s the problem.

I think that’s the problem they tried to solve with the TARs
method. And it’s not clear to me that it’s understood generally
whether or not that method actually works.

But I want to ask this question that Mr. Towns would have
asked, especially I would like Mr. Payne——

Mr. SHAYs. That Ms. Branson wrote.

Ms. BRANSON. No, Ms. Branson doesn’t always write questions;
in consultation with Mr. Towns, you know.

Mr. Says. I know.

Ms. BRANSON. I think Mr. Payne should consider this. It seems
that Job Corps trainers are not merely providing knowledge about
a trade, but they also serve as mentors to the young people in the
program. I know that’s not part of the Job Corps job description for
their employees, but Mr. Payne and anyone else on the panel,
would you like to address how this mentoring relationship may
help students, in the long run, achieve success?

Mr. PayNe. For my students to be able to have something to
compare it to, that right there is—you know, says a lot. For them
to see the end result of what the program can actually do for them,
that makes them strive that much harder to do the best that they
can possibly do. And I’m just glad that I can be a part of that for
them.

Ms. BRANSON. And that’s because you share a lot of the same
characteristics with those students?

Mr. Payne. Exactly. I can relate to basically any situation that
they bring to the table. You know, I can talk to them about any
issue, whether it be, you know, home life, dormitory life, whatever.
T’ve been through the whole thing that they’re going through right
now, a and that means a lot to them to be able to confide in someone
ike that.

Mr. Humpureys. Being a good Job Corps teacher or a instructor
is a tough job. You have to be father and mother. You've got to be
a counselor. You’ve got to be an instructor, trade instructor, craft
knowledge, life skills, being to work on time, proper worth ethic,
attitude, give 8 hours of hard work a day. So it’s tough being in
that job, but that’s all part of being a Job Corps instructor.


91

Mr. Humpureys. Well, the last thing I want to do is obviously
lace myself in between the committee and the Department of
Tabor with regard to——.

Mr. Suays. Let me just say this to you, Mr. Humphreys, we were
very fair to Ms. Silva. And we will continue to be very fair to her.
We just want to come to a conclusion. And I am a supporter of this
program. So you’re not coming between her. You're going to help

er and me and others sort this out. So what you’re doing now is
you’re educating me in a program. So the last thing that will hap-
pen is that you’re in jeopardy. I have too much respect for her.

Mr. HUMPHREYS. What I meant is when dealing with
terminologies, it’s extremely difficult. Let me give you an example.
One of the crafts that we teach in Job Corps is carpentry. If you
take a carpentry training achievement record, I don’t have one in
front of me, but let’s say it has 100 tasks on it, and if you com-
pleted all of those 100 tasks, you would be a generalist carpenter,
meaning you could probably do crown molding, you could do trim,
you could do rough carpentry. You could do a variety of skills.

We try to respond to the demands of employers in the industry.
We go to employers, and they pretty much say to us, we don’t need
trim carpenters, we don’t need journeyman carpenters. We need
framers. We can take TAR. We can take the items that relate to
safety, that relate to tool nomenclature, to the use of hand and
power tools and those particular sets of scales that a framer needs
to do his or her job well and complete those, let’s say, hypo-
thetically in 6 months or 7 months, rather than 12 months for the
whole. That person then is placed in the industry because that’s
what the industry wants. They want a framer.

Now, you can call that a framer, you can call that a carpenter,
but in the morning driving to work, if we all stopped at a construc-
tion site and saw a framing crew, we wanted to ask the person
what do you call yourself, they’re not going to say a framer, they’re
going to a say a carpenter. So we do train for the complete training
and achievement record, but we also train at the demands of indus-
tries for sections of that training and achievement record.

Mr. Suays. I would say it would be a very wise decision if you
in the process can place someone as a framer, and they don’t need
to know how to do molding yet and so on, and I would agree with
you that they have completed a skill. It would be for me and for
that individual, I think, important to know that’s the skill they've
completed. It would sure limit their options, though, if that’s all
they learned.

I don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but for me it is an amaz-
ing thing to think that in some cases we've called people that
they’ve completed a program—excuse me, that they basically com-
pleted the rogram, Because Tve always made an assumption that
they went ugh the entire program, rather than part of it.

And so what you want me to know, something I think makes
sense, you would want to match them to the skill. Then do you
walk away, or do you expect it from then on? What happens?

Mr. HumpuRevys. In a perfect world, we want every single stu-
dent to complete the entire TAR and their GED for one of the rea-
sons you just suggested.

Mr. Suays. TAR?


n

the Department of Education does not collect placement rate data.
However, the student loan default rate of 23% may serve as an
indication of graduate employability. Therefore, the trade schools are
not likely competitors. Mr. Chairman, while I share your concern about
sole source awards, the particular requirements of the program and the

nature of the industry may justify the sole source designation.

1am not the apologist for Job Corps. I believe that the program
can be improved. For instance, we should examine why the programs
managed by the Civilian Conservation Corps, cost 27% more to run than
other programs. Additionally, in preparation for this hearing I discovered
a disturbing report by the Department of Labor’s Inspector General that
found serious problems in the health and dental care received by Job
Corps participants. The report alleged that some centers failed to even
have basic first aid kits in their infirmaries. Mr. Chairman, I believe that
we should work together to assure that the health care received by these
young people is adequate and appropriate. [ hope I can count on your
support to assure that these young people get the health care they

deserve.

Again, Mr. Chairman, thank your for holding today’s hearing. I

look forward to hearing the testimony of our witnesses.


97

centers. I think some States do wonderful jobs in welfare reform,
and some don’t. But you have these wonderful laboratories in a
sense, and through having the various States do different pro-
grams, we’re then able to say what do we like best.

I would love to be able to say, well, you know, your Job Corps
program, you really are quite successful, but we evaluate success
in ways that we can see the fine differences. If we just lump
completer and advanced completer, and if we just say, OK, you get
a job—here you got this advanced skill, and then you got a minimal
starting job that doesn’t match your skill, I don’t want the center
to get credit for that, because I think it distorts our understanding
of the program in making improvements.

The bottom line is, I think it disguises bad programs. And I
think there are some very good Job Corps pro; is out there that
are truly matching people to the job skill, and others that are not,
but you won't know the difference between them.

ir. WOLF. Let me add another equation here in the equation. A
step-off level to us, now we're talking about the real world, what’s
going on, we got a program going, and zero tolerance kicks in, and

‘or whatever reason, he’s thrown off the center, or she. Now, we’re
at a level, we got a lot invested in this person, and if we were re-
quired to say—well, we would say they're not a completer, but if
they have completed like 65 percent of their TAR, they're a
completer, and we place them in the job. We don’t just discard
those people. We go out and place them, because we got a lot of
money. Our industry needs these people.

Mr. Suays. I agree, and what I would do is find a way to say,
yes, they completed stage 1, 2 and 3.

Mr. WoLr. it’s what we do—

Mr. SHays. So they are completer of stage 3 of a 5-stage pro-

gram.

Mr. WoLr. That’s what we do.

Mr. SHays. But that’s not what’s coming back to us, and that’s—
and we'll see how well—how it’s done in the system, but that to
me is the way I would describe it. And 1 good for you.

I want to get to Ms. Branson, but, Mr. Price, I will let you com-
ment.

Mr. PRICE. I just wanted to piggyback on what you said. When
students leave, there is no misunderstanding as to what level
they've completed, what skills they have been signed off on.

Mr. Suays. Internally?

Mr. PRICE. Well, with that student, too, when they go to an em-
ployer, to look at their skill levels of what they’ve completed, I just
want to make sure that we understand that.

Mr. SHays. OK. But I don’t think we compare centers based on
that level. We compare them based on completer or advanced
completer. That’s what I understand. And so, for instance, if your
center was getting to stage 2 quite often, and another center was
getting to stage 3, that’s interesting to us. If also stage 3 was
matching them to a stage 3 level of employment, and your center
was, that would be important. Then we would sit down and say,
OK, how come, and then qu would go to the center and say, how
come, and then you would incorporate some change, and then you
say things they are doing.


102

Mr. Cuase. Right. Once he or she completes your training pro-
gram, can a completer get into an apprenticeship program?

Mr. HUMPHREYS. Yes.

Mr. Wo r. They have priority of entry.

Mr. CHASE. Step 1?

Mr. WOLF. Pardon.

Mr. Cuase. Can a step 1 completer get an apprenticeship?

Mr. Wo tr. In the National Standards of Apprenticeship, there’s
a clause in there which makes room for a completer. They call it
priority of entry, so many hours in a pretraining program. They

ave priority of entry into the apprenticeship program. You under-
stand, we’ve got to deal with hometown plants and all this kind of
stuff, so like in New York, there’s one; in Chicago, there’s another
one, they got the hometown. And this priority of entry provides us
an avenue where we can get people in, into those programs.

Mr. Case. OK. Each State is different in terms of the require-
ments for apprenticeship programs?

Mr. WoLr. Yes.

Mr. CHASE. OK. How does that fit in with your policy that any
completer can get into an apprenticeship program?

ir. WOLF. Well, the national programs are standards, but they
can be adjusted locally, and they do that to fit the geographical
areas.

The way we handle it, our field people who do placement, they
are in constant contact with the local areas. And we know when
they got openings, and we get People in prior, get their names in
on the list. Some of them have lists and all this kind of stuff. But
our field people have a constant dialog with the local representa-
tives around the country and in the local union.

And we also deal with—I know this sounds a little bit confusing,
but the joint apprenticeship committees in many, many areas have
full control over the apprenticeship programs. It’s not in the hands
of the local unions, per se, it’s in the hands of the joint apprentice-
ship committee. ‘And t they have a standard set up where you submit
your name, and you go in for interviews, and they interview, and
we do all of that. So what—we try to be ahead of ourself as far as
placement is concerned with young people.

We see what we got coming, we've got it all over. We've got a
count of everybody we’ve got in training, who is going to be avail-
able, where they’re at in their status of training, so we know where
the jobs are at, and we provide this to the instructors, telling them
where we have this placement at.

Mr. CHASE. The last question. In reviewing the national con-
tracts, it struck me that 1 couldn’t find any language that specifi-
cally outlined or required a number of apprenticeships, in other
words, a standard in the contract that says that in a program year,
you are going to have X number of students in an apprenticeship
program. Is there any reason why that isn’t in the contract?

Mr. Wo tr. Well, they do it »y percentages. That varies all across
the country. Here again it goes into a local—a local autonomy, and
they have different—I think—let’s take the District, here, I think
they set up a system where it was one to one, like one apprentice
to a journeyman, like Clark. Clark had a project, this was all nego-
tiated, and to get—to get trainees in. ‘And. his negotiations was set


65

industry in their particular craft. Applicants, in particular, are
sought who have experienced teaching in apprenticeship schools.
After hiring, they are required to attend OSHA-recognized safety
training programs, and then they are further sent to an existing
Job Corps center to work with a senior instructor to hone their
skills. We also pay the costs for college course work needed to
achieve State teacher certification.

Because of the industry experience of national training con-
tractor instructors, we manage and perform millions of dollars an-
nually of vocational skill training projects, both on center and in
communities: Examples of construction of houses for Habitat for
Humanity, senior citizen and child care facilities, construction of
gymnasiums and rehabilitation of dormitories.

In addition to providing real industry working conditions for stu-
dents, we have saved local communities and the government mil-
lions of dollars in construction costs each year. Local service pro-
viders lack the expertise to accomplish projects of this nature. For
example, at the Albuquerque, NM, Job Corps center, the HBI
building and apartment maintenance, carpentry, electrical and
plumbing programs are currently rehabilitating all of the bath-
rooms in the existing dormitories on center. The project will cost
Job Corps and the government approximately $350,000. The ap-
praised value of the work, when it is completed, is $920,000.

HBI, looking to the future, is exploring new techniques and new
strategies to improve its training programs. Within the past year
we have doubled the amount of OSHA safety training required of
all instructors. We are currently preparing instructor materials to
help them teach students to better manage difficult behavior, and
we will continue to work with the Job Corps national and regional
staff to refine our training.

Since job placement and wage data is an important basis for
measuring success in Job Corps, we ask that the Congress consider
adding resources for postprogram followup. This would provide for
the retrieval of wage data and continuing education information on
students.

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Labor contracts with national
training contractors because we are the industry. Because its em-
ployers and workers are our members, we have the advantage of
assuring that our training reflects the best practices of construc-
tion. Our members assist us in making sure our training materials
and practices are current and relevant and meet the demands of
employers.

This unique partnership with Job Corps provides our student
with a rare advantage as they begin their careers in one of the
country’s most important and large industries.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you about the benefits
of Job Corps to the residential and light construction industry.

Mr. Says. Thank you, Mr. Humphreys. We will come back with
questions after we have heard from all four witnesses.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Humphreys follows:]


71

Mr. Suays. Mr. Wolf.

Mr. WoLF. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and distinguished mem-
bers of the committee. My name is Gilbert Wolf, and I’m the direc-
tor of the plasterers joint apprenticeship trust fund and the admin-
istrator of the plasterers and cement masons Job Corps training
program.

The plasterers and cement masons Job Corps training program-
ming has been in operation for over 30 years. In 1965, a GAO re-
port cited Job Corps for training in dead-end jobs. As a result, in
1967, we were asked by the Department of the Interior to operate
Job Corps training pr ms in three centers: Occonaluftee in
North Carolina, Great Onyx in Kentucky, and Harper’s Ferry in
West Virginia. We now operate 60 training programs at 39 Job
Corps centers throughout the United States. Two of those are our
original centers at which we began our program. Our graduates
continue to earn some of the highest wages possible through the
entry of the Job Corps Program.

The details of our growth as a program can’t be covered in 5 min-
utes, but we can isolate some of the most important factors as fol-
lows:

Vocational skills training. A significant construction project on
which students work and are expected to perform under rigorous,
realistic job conditions.

An established network of apprenticeship training programs
which provides many of our students continued training as they
begin work.

A close relationship with contractors and manufacturers.

A solid training curriculum that keeps up with the latest tech-
nologies and demands in the construction industry.

Vocational skills training, which we refer to as VST, is the foun-
dation of our training program and a large reason for our success
in placement and retention. We aggressively duplicate real-work
situations. Feedback from contractors and employers have proven
the merit of this approach to training.

We have targeted hundreds of projects throughout the commu-
nities of this Nation and performed renovations, restorations and
even constructed buildings from the footers up. The savings to the
taxpayer has been significant, and the quality of the work is out-
standing. You have been provided information about one of those
large-scale projects that saved over $320,000, and that was the
Whitney Young Vocational Building.

Apprenticeship training and our relations with local unions
throughout the United States has been crucial to the success of our
program. Local unions have provided us a network of job place-
ments throughout the country. Graduates have to go where the
work is, and the local unions provide a way to move graduates from
location to location, job to job. We have placed thousands of young
people as a result of this valuable network and cooperation.

And because we are aggressive in maintaining and upgrading
our training standards, we have built a reputation. Employers
know we will place properly skilled youth on their projects and job
sites. Our training achievement record, TARs, from which student
progress is evaluated, are updated continuously to keep pace with


16

clerical and computer-based occupations. National training contracts account for 527 classes, 32
percent of Job Corps’ total vocational programing, and $50.3 million of Job Corps’ total
vocational training investment of $144 million. These training contracts, which are awarded in
accordance with Federal acquisition law and procurement regulations, provide us with vital
access to national networks -- through the unions and the Home Builders Association -- for both
union and non-union jobs. These organizations offer high-quality instruction that is recognized
by employers, and they provide opportunities for Job Corps students to be placed in high paying
jobs.

Most Job Corps centers reflect a mix of light industry occupations, such as clerical
careers, computer operation, health services, and culinary arts; as well as heavy industry trades,
such as carpentry, painting, and bricklaying, Decisions about the specific mix of vocational
programs at each of the 113 Job Corps centers are made at the local level, with review and
approval by our regional and national offices. The process for recommending and receiving
approval on a specific vocational mix normally begins with the local center and the Job Corps
regional office. These entities work together to determine the most appropriate vocational
training programs for that center, based on careful analysis of local labor market information,
employer input, and the skill levels of prospective students. These recommendations are then
submitted to the national office for review, comment and a careful analysis to ensure that any
facility-related and/or equipment costs are not prohibitive. Every effort is made to reach an
agreement that is acceptable to all parties. In the case of newly selected centers, this information
is also useful to the architects who design the vocational facilities that will house the various

training programs.


99

The mentoring program you mentioned is a program that we're
working with employees with. Most of our employers are small em-
ployers. We're not talking about huge companies like General Mo-
tors or Chrysler or something. We're talking about a small oper-
ation. They don’t have a human resources de} ent. What does
mentoring mean to them? We're working with them to help them
understand when they hire a Job Corps graduate, they hire some-
one who is in the industry for the first time, who has their first
job, but you must treat them a little bit differently maybe than
someone who you hired last week who is 39 or 49 years old.

So we have a publication that we're working on, it’s very small,
very user-friendly, for a small employer to say, these are some
things that you need to do help assure success, not only for you and
your employee, but to make them successful.

In our written testimony we give an example, an electrical con-
tractor in Arizona who has hired, I think, nine of our Job Corps
students. And he has more a formalized mentoring program, a lit-
tle bit larger operation with a schedule base. He sits with them
and with their foreman and goes over issues and questions, and
this is how you can improve here, that kind of thing, to sort of
make that transition. And because he does that, you know, he hires
more Job Corps students because they’re successful, and that’s the
kind of thing we're trying to establish with all employers.

Mr. Price. I think it’s important to note that for many of our
students, the vocational instructor, the residential staff become like
their parents. So many of our students come from single-parent
families. So many of our students have severed relationships with
their families. And in order to keep them in the program, moti-
vated and focused, our staff assumes many responsibilities.

We employ—we demand that all staff be available to mentor stu-
dents, and we try to match them, and many times related to the
specific problem that the student may have, or many times the nat-
ural vitation of one student to a staff member, and many times
it is that vocational staff member or several staff members.

Ms. BRANSON, I mean, after all, most of them are just kids any-
way. We tend to forget that when we talk about all the problems
that many of these pone people have. But most of them are not
old eno to vote. They're basically just kids.

One of the criticisms that Job Corps has faced is that it’s too
heavily reliant on the construction industry, that it doesn’t keep up
with new and emerging technology and career fields. Would any
member of the panel like to address that allegation?

Mr. WoLrF. Well, we're constantly working and evaluating our-
selves. Each year we have a seminar with all of our instructors
from all over the country where we deal with all technological
changes in the industry and other programs. For instance, last year
we zeroed in on SST training, social skills training, where our in-
structors now hold on a specific daily basis an hour on SST train-

ing.

And our philosophy behind SST training is that when we're
working on a daily basis, and we're working on projects, things
happen on projects, and you’ve got to stop and say, look, you can’t
do that in the real world. to work, because if you do, you're going


21

in jobs related to training. In our judgement, these differences are directly related to the
partnership of Job Corps’ NTCs with unions and organizations representing business and
industry. NTC instructors are typically highly experienced in their trade, maintain productive
linkages with local and regional employers, and are continually improving their knowledge of
industry skill requirements. These data also demonstrate the continued vaiue for Job Corps

students of providing construction-reiated training. According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data,

employment in construction was 5.4 million in 1996 and is projected to be 5.9 million in 2
an increase of 9 percent. This indicates both growth and high volume of opportunity in a well-
paying occupational area

With respect to performance measurement there are two issues which require

farification, One deals with how we define vocational completer and the other 1s how we

determine job training match. Job Corps deveiops a Training Achievement Record (TAR) for
eack vocational program offered at a Job Corps center Depending on the voeation, a TAR can

have over a hundred skill areas which a student must master 1 order to quali

v for employment
opportunities. These TARs identify what we refer to as “step-off” levels. Each step-off level
represents a sei of skitls which, if mastered, qualifies the student for a particular occupational
area. A student who attains a step-off level is considered a vocational completer. On any
particular TAR there are several step-off levels. The step-offs are organized in hierarchicai
fashion so that students who master all the competencies on the TAR are considered advanced
completers qualifying them for higher quality jobs

For example, if student enters into the Job Corps Clerical Program, he/she could master

skill areas associated with word processing (i.e, creating and merging documents, preparing a


50

Mr. SHays. Let me be clear on this. When someone comes in,
don’t they have an objective to complete something? What do they
commit to?

Ms. SILVA. We ask them to commit to being in the program for
up to a year.

Mr. SHays. So up to at least a year?

Ms. SiLva. Right.

Mr. SHays. So the bottom line is, someone says, I’m going to be
in the program, they’ve committed a year of their life to the pro-
gram, correct?

Ms. SILva. That’s what they say.

Mr. SHays. Well, I hope that’s——

Ms. SILva. It’s a voluntai program.

Mr. Suays. I realize people can leave, but if my daughter sets out
to go to college, I’m not going to send her there to commit to doing
it a certain period and find that anything less than that to me is
not living up to what they set out to do, which is—you know, it’s
a 4-year program, Tm going to do my 4 years.

But anyway, it’s a 1-year program.

Ms. Siva. But the philosophy of the Job Corps program is that
it’s individual-paced, so some students——

Mr. Suays. We're not talking about individual pace. Excuse me,
I'm not disputing individual pace. I’m going to back up a second.
The; ney commit to a year.

[s. Siva. If that's what it takes to get that maximum benefit.
Some students will leave, be able to leave earlier.

Mr. SHays. And complete the whole program in a year?

Ms. SiLva. Yes, complete their vocational offering. If, for exam-
ple, they enter with a high school diploma, then they would not
need to go into the academic portion of the Job Corps, which would
mean they can go into vocational training on a full-time basis.

Mr. Suays. Let me just say this to you: We're going to have as
much time as you need, so I’m going to be very calm, and you can
know that we will just sort this out, but we’re not going to com-
plete this until we do.

Mr. Towns. You know—

Mr. SHays. Do you want your time, and I will go—come—I will
take my full 10 minutes and come back.

Mr. Towns. I would like to have some more time.

Mr. Suays. I’m very comfortable. This is what we do. I’m going
to give you 10 minutes, you have your 10 minutes. I will take 10
minutes. We will go to him. I will come back and take 10, and you
can take 10, and I will come back and take 10 until we get an an-
swer before we move forward.

Mr. Towns. Let me say, Mr. Chairman, I understand your ques-
tion, but I think when you put it into the real world, it’s not a lot
of difference, because you have people that leave high school going
to regular college, and they're ‘oing to major in Belog they’re
going to major in physics, they're going to major in all kinds of
things until they get there, ani all of a sudden they major in an-
other area. And, of course that didn’t mean that they've failed.
They didn’t complete. I think here-——

. SHays. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. Towns. I would be glad to yield.


95

Mr. Suays. A helper.

Mr. Payne. Yes, which is considered more or less someone who
is basically there for the journeyman.

Mr. Suays. Yes.

Mr. PAYNE. Parts getter, things of that nature.

Mr. Suays. Helper.

Mr. PRICE. Preapprentice, apprentice, journeyman, foreman, crew
supervisor, and possibly supervisor over the entire department.

ir. SHAYS. You described basically about seven levels.

Mr. Payne. Right.

Mr. Suays. I’m not there now, but when I was learning karate,
you had all of these different levels of belts, and then even when
you got to black belt, you had 10 levels. If they just went from the
first belt to black belt and no level in between, it would be very
hard for me to evaluate my progress. And, also, there were incen-
tives to reach that next level.

What’s wrong with my logic that says there should be more than
just completion and advanced completion?

Mr. PAYNE. Well, back to the job market once again. It all de-
pends on what type of company that these individuals will be
placed with. We have a very—have a large array of companies that
we do place our students with once they do complete the program,
and as I stated——

Mr. Says. Complete the program, meaning that as Job Corps
defines complete the program, not as you did it’

Mr. Payne. Right, in either level. Some le dealing with elec-
tricity will not be able to obtain the level oF achievement that I

ave.

Mr. SHays. With an electrician, you have—according to GAO, you
have 79 tasks, and 56 of those tasks have to be completed, which
is 71 percent of the total percentagewise. So you’re saying with an
electrician, you’ve at least got to do 71 percent of the total that it
takes to be an advanced?

Mr. Payne. Exactly.

Mr. Suays. You're pretty close to being advanced; you’re almost
three-fourths of the way there.

Mr. Payne. Right. t B level that I talked about earlier is
more or less putting the finishing touches.

Mr. Suays. Yes. , what it seems to be with health occupations
and electricians, probably because of, you know, other elements—
I mean electrician, it can be dangerous work if you’re not well-
schooled. So you probably need a large—a higher base before you
can be entering into the job market.

What I’m hearing all of you say in so many words is that a
completer is someone who can meet the barest minimum in order
to get out into the work force. That’s kind of what I’m hearing. Is
there anything you want to say?

Mr. PAYNE. Well, let’s talk about just the residential aspect of my
trade.

Mr. SHAYS. The residential. You say basically residential doesn’t
require as many skills?

r. PAYNE. I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is you can ob-
tain your journeyman level dealing with residential wiring. That
doesn’t make you any less of an electrician as if you were dealing


33

sole-source basis. Specifically, Labor uses one set of competitive contracts for recruiting
and screening new participants, another set for operating 84 of its 112 Job Corps centers
nationwide, and a third set for placing youths in jobs or providing them additional
training upon termination from the program.’ Labor awards the fourth set of contracts on
a sole-source basis to national labor unions and business organizations to conduct about a
third of Job Corps' vocational training*

Major corporations and nonprofit organizations manage and operate 84 Job Corps
centers under contractual agreements with Labor. Labor selects these contractors
through a competitive procurement process that takes into account a contractor's
expertise, proposed costs, and prior program performance. In addition, the U.S.
Departments of the Interior and Agriculture operate 28 Job Corps centers, called civilian
conservation centers, on public lands under interagency agreements with Labor. Labor
competitively awards a set of contracts for recruiting and screening Job Corps
participants and another set of contracts for placing participants. Private contractors, the
contractors operating Job Corps centers, and state employment service agencies are
among the organizations that have been awarded these contracts. Vocational training
may be provided in any combination of three ways. Most vocational training is offered by
instructors that are Job Corps center staff, other training is taught by private providers
under subcontract to the center. These providers typically include vocational schools and
community colleges. The rest of vocational training is provided by national labor unions
and business organizations under sole-source arrangements made directly with Labor.

Each Job Corps center provides participants with a wide range of services,
including basic education, vocational skills training, social skill instruction, counseling,
health care, room and board, and recreational activities. One unique feature of Job Corps
is that, for the most part, it is a residential program. About 90 percent of the youths
enrolled each year live at Job Corps centers and receive services 24 hours a day, 7 days a
week. The premise for boarding participants is that most come from a disruptive home
life; therefore, they can benefit from receiving education and training in a different setting
where a variety of support services are available around the clock. The comprehensive
services Job Corps provides make it a relatively expensive program. According to Labor's
program year 1996 figures, the average cost per Job Corps participant was more than
$15,000. Cost varies according to the length of time a participant stays in the program.
Participants stay in the program for an average of about 7 months but may stay as long as
2 years. Labor estimates the cost for a participant who remains in the program for a year
to be about $25,000.

*Placement" means getting a job, entering the military, returning to school, or entering
another training program.

“The remaining two-thirds of the vocational training is provided by Job Corps center staff
or by local training providers under subcontract to the Job Corps center.

3 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


Ww

For each trade, the choice of service provider occurs at the local level. The initial
discussion involves the local community, the regional office, and the center operator, if selected.
In the case of the trades offered by NTCs, an assessment is made as to whether an NTC or local
provider would be more appropriate. This assessment is based in large part on a comparison
between NTCs and local providers in areas such as job placement prospects and expected wages,
as well as the viability of NTC connections with local union and industry organizations.
Recommendations to use an NTC are submitted to the national office for final review and
approval. With respect to existing centers, if the center operator and local community, regional
office and NTC are in agreement that an NTC-operated program is reasonable, a request for an
NTC to provide the training would likely be approved. The national and regional offices in these
‘cases ensure that the request for an NTC is reasonable in terms of performance and costs. It must
be emphasized that an NTC program is never established at a center without local impetus.
When local communities and center operators prefer fo use local vocational training providers,
those preferences are accommodated.

Once a vocational program at a given Job Corps center is in place, center operators are
responsible for regularly assessing the performance of each training program and keeping abreast
of the labor market needs in the communities from which the students originate and to which
they are most likely to retum. Consistent with this responsibility, vocational changes can be
made in accordance with established procedures. However, the primary reason for requesting
and approving a change in vocational programs is performance. Centers and regions monitor
performance of vocational programs on an on-going basis, using data from the Job Corps

Management Information System. The nature of this data and the aspects of performance being


61

Mr. Suays [continuing]. And you could have levels within a job,
and that levels of training, even the best trained would be allowed
to take credit for a training-related match even if they were at the
bottom of that actual job level.

I can only give by way of analogy someone who gets ultimately
a Ph.D. I am sorry to keep coming back to this level. But they get
a Ph.D. in history, and let’s say they started out just learning to
be a teacher, and they could teach at a certain course level. Bat
they got the highest training in teaching history, and they found
themselves in a job in teaching elementary school in history; not
an unimportant job, but they are teaching. So should that person
be allowed to say that they got that job match?

I would say no; that they should be in a level in high school or
college teaching, and I wouldn’t give that a job match. I make an
assumption under the way you all do it that that person would be
a job match.

Ms. SiLva. Yes, they would. Yes, they would, and in that par-
ticular example, I think that while we personally may differ as to
the categorization, I would think that that would be appropriate
because the person had gone on to schooling to be a teacher and
had obtained a high level.

Mr. Suays. I would say to you that that is very unhelpful. Your
answer is truthful, I am not saying that, that is what you believe,
and vo should say what you believe. But I would say that would
totally distort the success of your job training. They could have got-
ten that same match as a bachelor of arts. They didn’t need to get
their master’s and their Ph.D. to do it. All of that was extra. And
if you allow that to happen, you make those matches almost mean-
ingless, in my judgment.

e’re not going to resolve it today, but that is just another area
of difference.

We are going to have a vote in 10 minutes. We are going to have
a second panel, but, Ms. Blanchette, you have two others who have
accompanied you. Could you talk about the sole-source justification
issue?

Ms. BLANCHETTE. Certainly, and I will perhaps let Mr. Bedrick,
from the Office of General Counsel, say more.

Basically, I want to make the point that there is a difference be-
tween having a contractor who is doing a good job and having one
that gets to be a contractor because of the sole-source procurement
process. And what we were addressing was the justification the Job
Corps used to use sole-source procurement.

e preferred means of procurement for the Federal Government
is open and full competition, and if an exception to that is made,
the standards for allowing that are very high. And our point was
the Job Corps had not met those standards.

Barry, is there anything you would like to add to that?
Mr. BEDRICK. I agree with what Ms. Blanchette said, and I think
the distinction that she makes is very important.

What we are talking about here is the responsibility that the law
and regulations place on the Department of Labor to adequately
justify why no other services can satisfy their need and why the
services are available only from these particular sources. We are
not, as she said, questioning the performance of the sources. The


Statement of Rep. Christopher Shays
July 29, 1998
Page 2

Last year, Job Corps officials told us more than 48 percent of all students completed
vocational training and 64percent of employed graduates were placed in training-related jobs.
For the most recent program year, Job Corps reports “64.5 percent of all students leaving a
vocational program were completers” with 71.9 percent of employed students placed in jobs
related to their training.

However, GAO finds these measures may seriously oversiate actual Job Corps
performance. The program defines “completers” as those who finish only a portion of a
vocational curriculum, in many cases less than half the course tasks mastered by those Job Corps
calls “advanced completers.” This semantic device boosts program performance figures but
obscures an accurate view of vocational training relevance and effectiveness

And the GAO found auestionable. even preposterous, attribution of training-related job
placements. A student got a job as a janitor ina watfle restaurant, and the contractor claimed the
placement as related to his Job Corps training as a bricklayer. A student trained as a diesel
mechanic was claimed as a training match after placement as a stock checker at K-Man. Of the
placements GAO reviewed. they found more than 46 percem of the claimed training matches
tenuous or erroneous. GAO said oversight of Job Corps contractors’ placement »!sims appears
inadequate.

ver the past $4 years. the Job Corps program has achieved much, and we expect much
ps vocational iraining should be timely. complete and matched to placements in careers,
\sitemporary jobs. And program accountability measures should capture the hard facts
avout the challenges faced by Job Corps in meeting its ambitious mission. No facade of inflated
numbers should mask the true measure of how well the program serves those who need it most

Albert Einstein observed. “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything
that counts can be counted.”

To be sure, the Job Corps’ uniquely imlense, residential program, and taining in the

soft” job readiness skills so essential to success, can be of incalculable benefit t0 every
participant who stays the course. Nevertheless. the substantial national commitment 10 the Job
Corps program demands stronger accountability for results that link current vocational training to
tomorrow's skilled iohs

We look sort und the testimony of all our witnesses today on ways to strengthen Job
Corps vocational trasning and performance standards

Welcome,


93

false sense that they truly have completed the program when
they’ve completed one stage in a very important process that has
many stages.

And that’s the question. It seems, you know, sometimes when I
use that kind of logic, there are a lot of reasons, but so far I still
have a sense that that’s my recommendation.

Mr. Payne, were you a completer or an advanced completer
under the terminology?

Mr. Payne. An advanced completer.

Mr. Suays. OK. You went through the whole program?

Mr. PAYNE. Yes.

Mr. SHays. Describe to me how long you were in the program.

Mr. Payne. Fifteen months.

Mr. Suays. Fifteen months?

Mr. Payne. Yes.

Mr. Says. Now, you brought it up, and I think it’s very helpful
that you did. You basically said you got in some trouble, and you
got in legal trouble as well.

Mr. Payne. Right.

Mr. Says. Now, were you remanded, sent to the Job Corps as
an option to something else?

Mr. Payne. No, that was on a voluntary basis.

Mr. SHays. But that was not a court——

Mr. Payne. No court order or nothing like that.

Mr. Suays. Did you have to do some time, or did you have to—
forget it, it doesa’t matter whether you did time. Did you have to

ay some kind of penalty for breaking the law, or did you not ever
ave to confront the law?

Mr. Payne. I never had to confront it.

Mr. SHays. OK. So you came to a conclusion, though, this was
in your best interest to go into this program? When you went into
it, were you happy that you did? Describe to me your emotions.
How old were you at the time?

Mr. Payne. Seventeen at the time.

Mr. Suays. I notice when I went to the Job Corps program in
New Haven, the range of ages was significant; I mean, one who
might have been 17, and you had some of them who might have
been 23, but they were all really in the same category of need and
so on. But in this case, you were fairly young.

Did you have a GED, or did you have a high school degree?

Mr. Payne. No, I don’t. I have a GED.

Mr. Suays. But when you went into the program, you didn’t have
a high school degree?

Mr. Payne. Before I went to the program, I obtained my GED.

Mr. SHAYS. So you went in this program. Was it what you antici-
pated?

Mr. Payne. Yes. Really the whole reason why I chose to go to Job
Corps was to give me some type of trade just to do something other
than what I was doing, which was basically nothing.

Mr. Suays. Now, you had, candidly, the good sense to know that.
Was that something inate? Was that something your friends were
telling you, a parent, a brother, sister? I mean, what gave you that
conclusion?


38

the vocational training program-regardless of whether they can perform all the duties and
tasks required in the entire vocational training program. Depending on the vocation, the
percentage of tasks that a participant must accomplish to be considered a completer
ranges from virtually 100 percent-for the health occupations vocational training program~
to about 25 percent for the welding program (see table 1).

ered Voca

Vocation Number of tasks | Minimum number | Percentage of
required to fully | of tasks required | total tasks
complete training | to be considered | required to be

a completer considered a
completer

Health occupations 189 179 95

Electrician 79 86 2

Painter 50 32, 4

Carpentry cc 42 56

Building and apartment | 123 ot 52

maintenance

Clerical 140 87 48

Landscaping 167 a 43

Bricklayer 64 26 41

Food service 109 39 36

Welding 128 36 28

‘Thus, Job Corps policy allows participants to be classified as vocational completers
if they can perform some portion of the required curricula. For example, in the food
service vocational training program, accomplishing only the tasks associated with the
salad/sandwich making segment would qualify a participant as a vocational completer. At
the centers we visited that had a food service program, nearly half of the reported
vocational completers had completed only this first segment of the food service program.
At the five centers overall, 43 percent of the vocational completers had completed only
the first segment of their vocational training programs.

Job Corps’ reported percentage of vocational completers at the five centers we
visited substantially overstated the percentage of participants who fully completed their

8 GAO/T-HEHS-98-218


100

to get fired. So the social skills training portion of our program is
important.

fe have two, social skills training, which basically runs an hour
a day, and our safety program, which we call tailgate safety, which
is very important for these young people. You know, Job Corps is
really the only place that you can train young people on power
tools. You know the laws of different States require they can’t go
on jobs, they can’t be near this.

jut, yeah, we can train, and we’ve been very successful, knock
on wood, but we are accident-free in our training of this. And it’s
so important for us to do this with the young people.

And even your previous question, I wanted to mention that we
changed it from instructor to coach. Actually we’re coaches, you
know, our people are coaches, because you've got to deal with the
individuals and all their problems, as I mentioned earlier, in the
apprenticeship program. Let me tell you something, from the age
of 16 to 19, they're all the same, I don’t care whether they're in Job
Corps or whether they’re in the apprentice program, they've got the
same dialog they use. They’re the greatest mechanics in the world,
and none of their cars work, and that kind of stuff. So an appren-
tice directly on the local level has to deal with them, and so does
the instructors in Job Corps. It’s a constant thing.

And the other thing of it is—is that these young people, and I
don’t know why, and IJ really feel sorry for them because they can’t
read, you know, and it really gets you when you see that, and they
can’t read when they come in there. Our policy in Job Corps is, if
you come through that door, male or female, and give us some time
with you, we'll make you into whatever craft you’re going to. We
don’t—we don’t have any kind of requirements or anything like
that. And it’s so important. And those instructors are so important.
That’s why we're constantly motivating the instructors, Because
they get down.

‘ou know, all of these statistics and everything, everybody harps
on what you lose, you know, and it does, it re: ts you. If you
train somebody, and, you know, they're good, and. they go out and,
oh, God, what they do to you, the employer gets mad at you, says
this is no good and all that kind of stuff, that really gets you down.
But you have the other 75 percent of the people you're successful,
really, that’s good. But that one, that really bothers you why did

it happen.

We eat had that happen out in Kansas. We had a young person
who was—we considered t to be excellent. He won’t go to work, and
he won’t even talk to us. We can’t even evaluate ourself, where did
we go wrong here.

Our industry needs these people. They need them. I mean, we
can place everybody that we could put together, but it takes time
to train people. Once you place them on a job, you get a new n
in, and something happens and all that kind of stuff, but it’s very
important with these young people, and then they look toward you
for guidance, and it’s our obligation to do that.

ir. HUMPHREYS. I would like to comment on the comment you
made about there are too many construction trades and high tech-
nology and all of that. I hope Job Corps won’t start down that slip-
pery slope, because if you look at the community colleges and look


Vocational training _| Job placement Employer
Accounting Bank teller Cable Car Cleaners
Linen room attendant Sheraton Hotel
Auto repair Detailer Vintage Car Wash
Wash boy Mesa Ford
Bricklaying Janitor Waffle House
Material handler Roger's Supermarket
Carpentry Municipal maintenance worker Piggly Wiggly's grocery store
Stone polisher Ro-An Jewelers.
Clerical Bank teller McDonalds
Cashier Dunkin Donuts
Diesel mechanic Laundry machine washer Elks Lodge
Stock checker K-Mart
Electronic assembly | Car wash attendant Vintage Car Wash
Machine cleaner Baskin & Robbins
Food service Housekeeper Pilar De La Torre
Personal attendant Consuelito's Boutique
Home health aide Appointment clerk Vision Dry Cleaning
Information clerk Alamo Car Rental
Hotel/motel clerk Fast food worker McDonalds
Ticket seller Regal Theaters
Medical assistant Information clerk Delia's Restaurant
Sanitarian Wendy's
Painting Janitor McDonalds
Material handler Federal Express
Plumbing Assembler Sealy Mattress
Material handler United Parcel Service
Welding Material handler Popeye's Chicken
Utility worker KC Pools

GAO/T-HEHS-98-218