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TO AMEND TITLE 18, UNITED STATES CODE, 

TO INCLUDE CONSTRICTOR SNAKES OF THE 

SPECIES PYTHON GENERA AS AN INJURIOUS 

ANIMAL 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, 

AND HOMELAND SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON

H.R. 2811 

NOVEMBER 6, 2009 

Serial No. 111–97 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan, Chairman 

HOWARD L. BERMAN, California 

RICK BOUCHER, Virginia 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia 

MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

ROBERT WEXLER, Florida 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., 

Georgia 

PEDRO PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico 

MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois 

JUDY CHU, California 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

ADAM B. SCHIFF, California 

LINDA T. SA ́ NCHEZ, California 

DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida 

DANIEL MAFFEI, New York 

LAMAR SMITH, Texas 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

ELTON GALLEGLY, California 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TED POE, Texas 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TOM ROONEY, Florida 

GREGG HARPER, Mississippi 

PERRY APELBAUM, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

SEAN MCLAUGHLIN, Minority Chief of Staff and General Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman 

PEDRO PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida 

MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

TED POE, Texas 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

TOM ROONEY, Florida 

BOBBY VASSAR, Chief Counsel 

CAROLINE LYNCH, Minority Counsel 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

NOVEMBER 6, 2009 

Page 

THE BILL 

H.R. 2811, ‘‘to amend title 18, United States Code, to include constrictor 

snakes of the species Python genera as an injurious animal’’ ......................... 2 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

The Honorable Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott, a Representative in Congress from 

the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, 

and Homeland Security ....................................................................................... 1 

The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and 

Homeland Security ............................................................................................... 5 

The Honorable Tom Rooney, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Florida, and Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland 

Security ................................................................................................................. 6 

WITNESSES 

The Honorable Kendrick B. Meek, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Florida 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 8 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 10 

Mr. Dan Ashe, Deputy Director of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, Washington, DC 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 20 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 22 

Mr. Andrew Wyatt, President, United States Association of Reptile Keepers, 

Grandy, NC 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 27 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 29 

Dr. Elliott R. Jacobson, DVM, Ph.D, DACZM, Professor of Zoological Medicine, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, Gainesville, 

FL 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 32 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 35 

Ms. Nancy Perry, Vice President of Government Affairs, The Humane Society 

of the United States, Washington, DC 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 40 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 43 

Mr. George Horne, Deputy Executive Director, Operations and Maintenance, 

South Florida Water Management District, MSC 5100, West Palm Beach, 

FL 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 65 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 68 

APPENDIX 

Material Submitted for the Hearing Record .......................................................... 95 

(1) 

TO AMEND TITLE 18, UNITED STATES CODE, 

TO INCLUDE CONSTRICTOR SNAKES OF 

THE SPECIES PYTHON GENERA AS AN INJURIOUS ANIMAL 

FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 2009 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,

AND HOMELAND SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, 

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in 

room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert 

C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Scott, Jackson Lee, Wasserman 

Schultz, Quigley, Gohmert, Goodlatte, and Rooney. 

Staff Present: (Majority) Ron LeGrand, Counsel; Veronica Eligan, 

Professional Staff Member; and (Minority) Kimani Little, Counsel. 

Mr. SCOTT. Good morning. The Subcommittee will now come to 

order. I am pleased to welcome you today to the hearing before the 

Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on 

H.R. 2811, a bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to include 

constrictor snakes of the species Python genera as an injurious animal. 

We are going to start with a brief video, about a 5-minute video 

to put the hearing in perspective. And we will begin with the video. 

[Video played.] 

Mr. SCOTT. There are 47 species of pythons today. We will hear 

testimony about issues surrounding this bill and issues pertaining 

to the invasion of nonnative constrictor snakes, with particular emphasis on the Burmese python. 

On June 10, Representative Kendrick Meek of Florida introduced 

H.R. 2811, which was then referred to the Judiciary Committee. 

The bill was introduced primarily to address serious safety and environmental hazards; that is, the presence of a large number of 

Burmese pythons in the Florida Everglades. These snakes, when 

mature, can reach the length of 23 feet and weigh up to 200 

pounds. They can be a danger to humans, and they are clearly a 

threat to the Florida Everglades delicate ecosystem. Thousands 

now live there as a result of breeding after having escaped or having been intentionally or accidentally released from captivity. 

[The bill, H.R. 2811, follows:] 

2 


HR2811.eps
3 

Mr. SCOTT. As a result of this threat posed to the Everglades by 

the Burmese pythons, Interior Secretary Ken Salazar has asked 

the State of Florida, the National Park Service, and the U.S. Fish 

and Wildlife Service to develop an action plan to control this 

invasive species. 

Much has been reported regarding the threat that these snakes 

represent to humans. Since 1980, 12 people have been killed by pet 

pythons. This includes a 2-year-old girl killed in July of this year 

in Florida by an 8-foot Burmese python that escaped from an 

aquarium in her home. In October of last year, near my home congressional district in Virginia, a woman was found dead by asphyxiation believed to be caused by a 13-foot long python owned by her 

and her husband. In 1999, an Illinois couple’s 7.5 foot African Rock 

python escaped from its enclosure and killed their 3-year-old son. 

The 12 deaths caused by pythons clearly reflect their danger to humans, and it is clear that all too often owners of these animals do 

not understand that no matter how tame or friendly these snakes 

appear to be, it is and always will be a wild animal and, as such, 

subject to what appears to be some unpredictable behavior when in 

fact the behavior is natural for the snake. 

In addition to the issue of safety to humans, we must also be 

concerned about the impact of these animals to our ecosystems 

when they leave captivity and breed, as they have in Florida. 

Today we will hear testimony about this impact. We will hear from 

U.S. Department of Interior about the recently completed biological 

risk assessment study of nine giant constrictors conducted by the 

U.S. Geological Survey, which appears to leave little doubt that 

something needs to be done to gain control over the continued invasion of these nonnative species in our ecosystem. 

Although the bill, as introduced, covered all species of pythons, 

in July of this year, subject to a bipartisan agreement, Representative Rooney of Florida and a Member of the Subcommittee introduced an amendment to the full Committee markup of the bill to 

limit the prohibition to Burmese and African Rock pythons. 

[The amendment follows:] 

4 


Rooney.eps
5 

Mr. SCOTT. Representative Wasserman Schultz, also a Member of 

the Subcommittee, while agreeing with the concept of the bill and 

the amendment’s intent and focusing on the most dangerous constrictor snakes, expressed concern that the legislation may not go 

far enough in its coverage. She noted the concern that if we only 

restrict large pythons, then anacondas, boa constrictors, and other 

large snakes might similarly be imported and proliferate with similar impact on humans and our ecosystem. 

Ranking Member Gohmert expressed concerns that we may not 

know enough about the context in which we are legislating and requested that we conduct this hearing when the issues before the 

bill is considered on the floor. That is what has brought us here 

today. 

In addition to the testimony about the U.S. Geological Survey 

study, we will receive testimony from others with expertise on the 

issue, including experts from the University of Florida and the U.S. 

Association of Reptile Keepers, who will represent a point of view 

that differs from that of the U.S. Geological Survey. We will also 

hear from the Humane Society of the United States. Finally, we 

will hear from a representative from South Florida Water Management District, an agent that is on the scene of a vast area of South 

Florida that is directly impacted by the presence of some of these 

nonnative snakes. 

The question before us is whether the bill we have reported from 

the full Committee reflects the appropriate action to be taken on 

this issue, and we want to do what is appropriate and timely without overreaching. 

I will now recognize the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, 

the gentleman from Texas, Judge Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Chairman Scott. 

Today’s hearing is I feel like a good idea and appreciate our 

friend Congressman Meek being here and the rest of the panel 

members. I appreciate the written testimony that has been submitted. 

As Chairman Scott pointed out, I did indicate I didn’t think I 

knew enough about this, and so I appreciate the testimony and the 

information that has been provided by people that do so that we 

didn’t go weighing into an area to legislate without having sufficient information. 

But the legislation proposed would amend the Federal Criminal 

Code to include all pythons as injurious animals that cannot be imported into the United States. This bipartisan bill was introduced 

by our friend Mr. Kendrick Meek, the gentleman from Florida, in 

June of this year. Currently, the bill has nine cosponsors, including 

our colleague on the Crime Subcommittee, Mr. Rooney. Senators 

Nelson and Martinez have a companion bill in that other body. 

Pythons are often imported to the United States for use as exotic 

pets, and clearly, many of these animals are kept as pets in the 

State of Florida. Over 5,000 Burmese pythons have been imported 

via Miami over the last 3 years. I had no idea the extent to which 

this had been going on. It really is shocking. 

But despite recent efforts by the State of Florida to limit and better track these potentially dangerous snakes, Burmese pythons 

have been reported in Florida’s wildlands. Although uncertainty reVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:38 Jul 20, 2010 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\110609\53232.000 HJUD1 PsN: 53232
6 

mains regarding their actual population, and this was staggering 

to me, an estimated 100,000 wild Burmese pythons are living in 

south Florida’s natural wildlife areas, such as Everglades National 

Park. 

Unfortunately, many of these potentially dangerous animals are 

not always kept in a safe or secure manner, and they often escape 

from their cages or aquariums. When pythons escape, they can be 

a huge danger to the surrounding human population. According to 

the media reports, at least 12 people have been killed by pet 

pythons since 1980. Sadly, in early July of this year, a 9-foot, socalled pet Burmese python escaped its a aquarium encasement inside a Florida home and strangled a 2-year-old girl in her bedroom. 

In response to this growing problem, members of the Florida delegation got together to craft this bipartisan bill which bans the imports of pythons in this country. The language of the bill adds 

these animals to the codified portion of the Lacey Act, a law that 

dates back to 1900, and is primarily used to prevent the importation or spread of potentially dangerous nonindigenous species in 

the United States. 

There was some opposition from reptile keepers to the original 

language of H.R. 2811, as introduced. Those opposed to the bill felt 

that a ban on the import of all pythons was far too broad. At a 

markup of the bill, Mr. Rooney offered an amendment that would 

limit the types of snakes that would fall under the ban. The 

amendment was adopted by the Committee, but I did ask for this 

hearing so Members could learn more about the subject, and I have 

already learned a great deal from the written testimony that has 

been provided by our witnesses. 

And so I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing which 

has caused so much information to be submitted to us. Obviously 

our colleagues on both sides of the aisle from Florida realized there 

was a problem for Florida. I felt like it was important to see how 

much of a problem this was not just for Florida but for the United 

States, and to see whether this was something we should weigh in 

on the national level. It appears that it is a far bigger problem 

than I ever imagined. 

So thank you for coming. Thank you for having the hearing, 

Chairman Scott. 

I appreciate Mr. Meek’s and Mr. Rooney’s persistence in this 

manner, and I look forward to more information we get. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. We usually ask for other statements to 

be placed in the record, but the gentleman from Florida has been 

so active in this area, we will make an exception and allow him to 

make a statement. 

The gentleman from Florida. 

Mr. ROONEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank 

Chairman Scott and Ranking Member Gohmert for holding this 

very important hearing today. 

In Florida, we have experienced firsthand the inherent dangers 

of the damages invasive species, such as the Burmese python, can 

do to an ecosystem. The Federal Government, in partnership with 

State and local interests, has dedicated billions of dollars toward 

restoring the American Everglades in South Florida. 

7 

As many of you know, the Everglades is home to an extraordinary variety of birds, fish, and other wildlife. Many are threatened or endangered. We are working tirelessly to save this threatened habitat to ensure the survival of the native wildlife; but, 

sadly, an invasive predator threatens all of the progress we have 

made. 

The Burmese python has no natural predators in the Florida Everglades. They even prey on native adult alligators. You may have 

seen the famous picture of a huge python that attempted to eat a 

6-foot alligator. This is the reality that we are facing in South Florida today. 

There are estimates of over 100,000 Burmese pythons currently 

living in the Everglades. These vicious predators can grow 6 to 8 

feet in a single year and prey on wading birds and other wildlife 

we are working so diligently to save. They thrive on our subtropic 

climate and abundant food resources. In 2006, the South Florida 

Water Management District filed a petition with the U.S. Fish and 

Wildlife to have Burmese pythons listed as an injurious species 

under the Lacey Act. 

Just so I am clear, they petitioned for this 3 years ago this June. 

In that time, thousands more Burmese pythons have been imported 

into the United States, and more damage has been done to the ecosystem of South Florida. Not only are these deadly predators 

wreaking havoc on the Everglades, but earlier this year, we heard 

the tragic news reports of a 2-year-old who was strangled in her 

crib while she slept by a pet Burmese python. 

This past summer, a 17-foot Burmese python was found and 

killed in Okeechobee, Florida, which is in my district. For those not 

familiar with this area, this city is north of Lake Okeechobee and 

over 100 miles north of Everglades National Park. These snakes 

pose a real threat to health and human safety and should be listed 

under the Lacey Act. 

We have been waiting for 3 years for the Fish and Wildlife to 

issue a decision. Three years is too long. We cannot wait any more. 

And too much is at risk. 

My fellow delegation member, Mr. Kendrick Meek, who is here 

today, introduced H.R. 2811 to legislatively do what we have been 

waiting 3 years for the Fish and Wildlife to do, ban the further importation of these dangerous snakes. H.R. 2811 will help us fight 

the growing problem of Burmese pythons at the source, by keeping 

them from entering our country. It is a piece of the solution, and 

a very important piece I might add. And I thank the Member for 

joining us today. 

I was very pleased with the recent USGS risk assessment of nine 

large species of pythons, anacondas, and the boa constrictor. The 

risk assessment confirmed what we have long feared: Of the nine, 

four were determined to have a medium risk of establishment; and 

five, which includes the Burmese and the African Rock, were found 

to have a high risk of establishment. While this puts us one step 

closer to a Fish and Wildlife determination, time continues to pass 

and with more of these dangerous predators being imported. 

While H.R. 2811 is not a silver bullet to ending the problem in 

South Florida, it is a vital step toward reaching that goal. We must 

stop the further introduction of these snakes while we continue to 

8 

work to eradicate them from the Everglades. I look forward to 

hearing from today’s witnesses, and yield back the remainder of my 

time. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Rooney. 

We have two panels of witnesses to help consider the issue today. 

Our first panel will consist of Congressman Kendrick Meek of the 

17th District of Florida. He is in his fourth term of Congress, is a 

Member of the House Ways and Means Committee, the Democratic 

Steering and Policy Committee, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, and he is Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation, and he is the lead sponsor of H.R. 

2811. 

Mr. Meek, I assume you can stay within 5 minutes without a 

clock. 

Mr. MEEK. I will try. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Meek, it is a pleasure to see you here today, and 

look forward to your testimony. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE KENDRICK B. MEEK, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA 

Mr. MEEK. Mr. Chairman, let me just say, hopefully, I won’t go 

against my time. I was noticing that this time keeper was close, 

unusually close, to me. But I will move it back a little further. 

It is a honor to be before the Subcommittee, and Mr. Chairman, 

you and your Ranking Member are very good friends of mine here 

before Congress. 

And Mr. Rooney, I want to thank him for all of his hard work 

on this legislation. This is truly bipartisan. 

Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of illustrations here that I want 

to show, because I believe the Members of the Committee have 

shaped the debate as it relates to why we are here. This sells it. 

This H.R. 2811 sells itself. There are a number of incidents that 

have been out there involving children, public safety. Also, as it relates to the ecosystem and the Florida Everglades, the python, the 

Burmese python does not have a natural predator, so it is the top 

of the food chain in the Florida Everglades. When the Florida alligator is being slammed by a snake, I think it is time to do something. 

We have a number of young people that buy these snakes, and 

then Johnny goes off to school, and we find ourselves in a situation 

where the parent has to find a way to dispose of these animals, and 

many times they release them into what they believe is a natural 

habitat, which it is not. These pythons lay up to 100 eggs. They get 

up to 12 to 16 feet in length in a given year, and they reproduce 

fast. So now we have over 30,000—well over 30,000—pythons in 

the Florida Everglades, far too many to trap. We have to stop the 

spigot and by outlawing these from snakes by being imported. It 

is very, very important. 

Mr. Chairman, for the record, I would like to say I know the 

Committee has already voted in full Committee on this legislation, 

but I want to share with you, proponents and opponents of the bill, 

that I think that this Committee has taken an extra step to make 

sure that we are doing the right thing at the right time. And the 

9 

evidence is so strong; the reason why these snakes should be 

barred from being imported to the United States, I believe that the 

outcome of today’s hearing will hopefully have 2811 moving to the 

floor as fast as possible to get it over to the Senate. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, if I can, I have a couple of things that 

I want to—first, we have one of the snakes that were captured in 

the Florida Everglades. It is not alive. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. MEEK. The snake’s name is Pandora, and I know that I have 

George Horne from the South Florida Water Management District 

is here. 

Okay. George, if you can help me bring Pandora out so that 

Members of the Committee can see. 

Mr. Chairman, Pandora was actually caught in the Florida Everglades. And as you can see, this snake is quite long, big, and you 

can only imagine if this was going—this snake was actually kept 

in a private home or in the Florida Everglades. Even the Florida 

alligator doesn’t stand a chance against this snake. And I am pretty sure that out of 30-plus thousand of these snakes that have been 

identified by the South Florida Water Management District and 

the Florida Fresh Game and Fish Commission, that there are bigger snakes that are out there. 

And so, Mr. Chairman, if you have any or Members of the Committee have any questions, I will be more than happy to answer 

them. 

I have a couple of boards here, wherever they are. This board 

here illustrates how many eggs and the size of them. This was obviously a snake caught in the Florida Everglades that has been 

euthanized. But see the row of eggs that they drop again, not having a natural predator, brings about an unfair situation as relates 

to management and also keeping the Florida Everglades the way 

it has been over the years, a place where people travel throughout 

the world to come see. 

This is also showing you what an 11-foot python approximately 

10 to—5- to 7 years old can consume. One python. So we find a 

number of the egrets and possum, you have your raccoons, you also 

have the American cots and the little blue herons. You name it. 

Squirrels, rabbits, cotton rats that are natural and mice that are 

natural to the Florida Everglades find themselves falling victim to 

these pythons. 

So, Mr. Chairman, I would strongly encourage the Committee to 

allow not only Mr. Rooney and I but other members of the Florida 

delegation and Members of Congress that have testified even there 

on the dais, Mr. Chairman, to move 2811. I will be happy to answer any questions. And, Mr. Chairman, I would also ask the permission of yourself and the Ranking Member if I could enter my 

formal statement into the record. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Meek follows:] 

10 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF KENDRICK B. MEEK


Meek-1.eps
11 


Meek-2.eps
12 


Meek-3.eps
13 

ATTACHMENT 


MeekA-1.eps
14 


MeekA-2.eps
15 

Mr. SCOTT. Without objection, the statement will be entered into 

the record. 

And are there questions of the witness? The gentleman from 

Texas. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Normally, we don’t ask questions of our fellow 

Members, but the chart you displayed showing how much a python 

could consume over here, over what period of time is that? 

Mr. MEEK. That is from 5 to 7 years, I believe. Am I correct? Five 

to 7 years. That is, from what I understand from the South Florida 

Water Management District that manages the Florida Everglades, 

the flow of water and also from the Florida Fish and Game Commission that monitors a number of habitats of the Everglades, that 


MeekA-3.eps
16 

is what a 5-to-7-year-old python will require to survive. And this 

information was backed up from, obviously, autopsies that were 

taken on pythons that were captured. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And the other photograph, what are those eggs 

contained in? 

Mr. MEEK. That is actually within the body of the python. And 

this python was caught in Florida Everglades, and of course, scientists want to learn more about what they are doing, what they 

are eating, and many of these pythons have been tagged and monitored. And just recently the State of Florida allowed I think 15 

trappers to go out and trap pythons. But when you are dealing 

with 30,000—and they are hard to find. Once they get into the 

weeds and into the water, it is hard to find. Secretary Salazar, myself, Senator Nelson actually took an airboat tour to the Florida 

Everglades and to talk about these pythons, and South Florida 

Water Management District others brought a python out for us to 

see similar to the size of the one we have here on the table. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Do you know if those have migrated? Or there are 

similar areas, wildlife areas, in Georgia. Do you know if they have 

migrated north? 

Mr. MEEK. Yes, sir. These pythons, 9 times out of 10, start out 

as pets, and people move throughout the country. The reason why 

the attention has been placed on the Florida Everglades, when you 

start getting a snake tackling the Florida alligator, people travel 

throughout the world to come see the Florida alligator, and they reproduce faster than the alligator or any other predator that is in 

the Florida Everglades. 

Also for the record, Mr. Chairman, at the appropriate time and 

also Mr. Ranking Member, I have a Palm Beach Post story here 

that only 39 snakes out of the 15 permits that were given to trap 

were actually trapped and captured. 

[The information referred to follows:] 

17 


O-1.eps
18 

Mr. MEEK. So, really, as we continue to allow these snakes to 

come into the United States, we find ourselves putting those that 

monitor the movement and also tracking these snakes at a huge 

disadvantage because they are being released because of their size. 

Imagine, you could not maintain a snake of this size in your home. 

And we have—Mr. Rooney talked about incidents in his district 

and we have a number of incidents where we find these snakes 

that are found in back yards because they have to feed. And if 


O-2.eps
19 

someone has a family pet or if someone has a small child or what 

have you, we know that is the case, in many cases in Florida and 

any community in the United States, these snakes are going to do 

what they have to do to survive. And, unfortunately, they grow to 

this size, they become a danger to the public. They become a danger to management organizations throughout the country. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Are there other questions? 

If not, thank you. Thank you very much. 

Mr. MEEK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to come 

before you today. And I look forward to working with the Committee as we continue to work toward this great legislation moving 

to the floor. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. If our next panel will come forward. 

As our witnesses are being seated, our first witness on this panel 

will be Daniel Ashe. He is the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services Deputy Director for Policy. In this capacity he oversees the assistant 

directors in the Washington, D.C., office, providing strategic program direction and developing policy and guidance to support and 

promote program development to fulfill the service mission. 

After he testifies, Andrew Wyatt, the founder of the North Carolina Association of Reptile Keepers and the founder of the United 

States Association of Reptile Keepers. And he is currently the 

President of the USARK which works for the betterment of the reptile industry by promoting sound legislation and the best professional management standards at the State and Federal levels. He 

operates an eco tour, and wildlife education companies, provided 

reptiles and expertise in the production of several TV and film 

projects including segments for the National Geographic Channel. 

Next will be Professor Elliot Jacobson. He holds a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine and a Ph.D. In zoology. He has served on the faculty of the University of Florida since 1977, where he is currently 

a professor of veterinary medicine. Over the last 32 years he has 

worked on health problems of a wide variety of amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. His laboratory focuses on infectious diseases of wildlife and zoo animals. He has authored or coauthored 

250 refereed scientific papers, 37 chapters and texts, edited and coedited four books and has been either the principal or coprincipal 

and investigator on 83 funded projects since 1978. 

After he testifies, Nancy Perry is the vice president of government affairs for the Humane Society of the United States. She 

oversees legislative campaigns to protect animals, including statewide initiatives and grassroots organizations throughout the country. She has spearheaded congressional work to end horse slaughter, crack down on puppy mills, and protect Yellowstone bison. A 

graduate of Northwestern School of Law of Lewis and Clark College, she has founded the Student Animal Legal Defense Fund, the 

Animal Law Journal, and the Animal Law Conference. She coteaches an animal law seminar at George Washington University 

Law School and a summer intensive course at the Lewis and Clark 

Law School. 

Our sixth witness, George Horne, is deputy executive director, 

operations and maintenance, South Florida Water Management 

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ence in water resource operations and maintenance. In that role he 

is responsible for overseeing operations and maintenance of the 

Central and Southern Florida Project as well as other district 

water control and conveyance facilities. This water management 

system includes more than 2,300 miles of canals and levees, 2,200 

water control structures, 61 pump stations, and over 1 million 

acres of land across the district’s 16-county region. 

Now, each of our witness’s written statements will be entered 

into the record in its entirety, and I will ask each of our witnesses 

to summarize their testimony in 5 minutes or less. And to help 

stay within that time, there is a lighting device on the table which 

will begin green, switch to yellow when you have 1 minute, and 

will turn red when your time has expired. 

Mr. Ashe. 

TESTIMONY OF DAN ASHE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE 

UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. ASHE. Good morning, Chairman Scott, Ranking Member 

Gohmert, and Members of the Subcommittee. I am Dan Ashe. I am 

the deputy director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. And we 

appreciate the opportunity to testify here today, Congressman 

Meek’s leadership, and your timely consideration of a very important conservation issue. 

Being an executive branch agency, we generally prefer to allow 

administrative processes to run their course, but today we are here 

to support H.R. 2811 as reported and also to recommend amending 

the legislation to include all nine species of large constrictor snakes 

in light of the recently released U.S. Geological Survey risk assessment. 

We believe that the Burmese python and the other large constrictor snakes present a clear and urgent threat. The Burmese 

python population estimate is now in the tens of thousands putting 

a variety of imperiled species and the Everglades ecosystem at risk. 

But Burmese pythons are not the only concern. These other species 

of large snakes that are or may be breeding in the Everglades now 

including boa constrictors and northern African pythons and other 

species may pose a similar risk. 

Given the value of the Everglades’ ecosystem, its biological diversity, and the potential threat to other ecosystems and species, all 

nine large constrictor snakes will be the focus of the Service’s continued assessment under the Lacey Act. 

Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet that will comprehensively 

address the conservation challenge presented by these snakes. We 

lack effective trapping and other control technologies. We lack capacity to detect the snakes in the wild. We lack adequate science, 

management, and regulatory tools to prevent the further introduction and spread of these predators. Therefore, we believe that immediate action is appropriate, and we urge the Subcommittee to 

take that action. 

In June 2006, the Service received a request from the South Florida Water Management District to list Burmese pythons as an injurious species under the Lacey Act. At that time, at the time the petition was submitted, no scientific information had been compiled 

21 

on Burmese pythons that would enable a rigorous assessment of 

risk and potential impacts to the Everglades and other ecosystems. 

As a result, in 2007, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Park Service partnered to jointly fund the risk assessment 

for these nine large constrictor snake species considered invasive or 

potentially invasive in the United States. 

Of the nine constrictors assessed, as was noted before, five were 

shown to pose a high risk to ecosystem health, including the Burmese python, Northern African python, Southern African python, 

yellow anaconda, and boa constrictor. The remaining four large 

constrictors, the reticulated python, green anaconda, Beni anaconda, and Deschauensee’s anaconda, were shown to pose a medium risk. None of the large constrictors that were assessed were 

classified as a low-risk. 

In addition to the risk assessment, the Service published a notice 

of inquiry in January of 2008 soliciting biological, economic, and 

other data related to the potential of adding these large constrictor 

snakes to the list of injurious wildlife. We received over 1,500 responses. The Service is using this information and the risk assessment in our ongoing evaluation of whether these constrictor snakes 

should be considered as injurious under the Lacey Act. 

We are completing economic analysis and documentation required under the National Environmental Policy Act. We expect to 

complete our internal review and be positioned to publish a proposed Lacey Act determination in early 2010. Should a proposed 

rule be issued, the publication would be followed by public comment and a final decision would be possible as early as mid-2011. 

Given the importance of this issue, the Service is working diligently to complete the administrative process, but it is complex and 

time consuming. 

In summary, the Department supports H.R. 2811 as reported, 

and recommends amending the legislation to include all nine species of large constrictor snakes. We appreciate Congressman Meek 

and the Subcommittee bringing attention to this conservation concern. Thanks for the opportunity to testify today, and I would be 

happy to answer questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Ashe follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAN ASHE


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. Wyatt. 


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TESTIMONY OF ANDREW WYATT, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES 

ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS, GRANDY, NC 

Mr. WYATT. Good morning, Chairman Scott, Ranking Member 

Gohmert, and the rest of the Subcommittee. I want to thank you 

for the opportunity to come before you and present testimony here 

on H.R. 2811. My name is Andrew Wyatt, and I am here representing the United States Association of Reptile Keepers, of 

which I serve as president. 

Over the past 60 years, the practice of keeping reptiles has 

changed from an obscure hobby to an incredibly widespread and 

mainstream part of the American experience. Reptiles have become 

intensely popular and now present in millions of American households. One in every 25 U.S. households has one or more reptiles. 

They now permeate pop culture, movies, advertising. And I am 

sure you are all familiar with the Geico gecko. 

The reptile industry has grown into a sophisticated and inde- pendent $3 billion a year industry. Herpetoculturalists produce 

high-quality captive bred animals for collectors, research, zoos, museums, TV, and film. These animals can be valued at over $100,000 

for individual specimens. Millions of dollars flow into the national 

economy from the reptile industry. It is interlaced and interconnected with all levels of economy. The purchase of equipment, 

dry goods, bedding, cages channel money into U.S. manufacturing. 

Millions of dollars go into support American agriculture with 

purchases of food, grain, rodents, bedding, et cetera. Millions of dollars more support airlines and parcel shippers. The reptile industry 

in the United States accounts for 82 percent of the worldwide export and trade and high-quality captive bred reptiles. Thousands of 

American small businesses and their employees depend on the reptile industry, and there would be a great loss of jobs if this bill was 

to pass and restrict all nine species. 

USARK is concerned about the feral Burmese pythons in the Everglades and the impact they could potentially have on the ecosystems of South Florida. We recognize the problem and have been 

committed to be part of the solution. Our members have been intrinsic in the creation of the python removal program and in coordination with Florida Fish and Wildlife in South Florida. We 

were the first to be licensed to remove pythons from State lands 

in South Florida. 

USARK has actively appealed to the U.S. Department of Interior 

to open up Everglades National Park to removal programs modeled 

on the Florida program. We do not believe captured pythons should 

be rereleased back into the park for any reason. USARK has also 

offered up $10,000 to U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to establish 

the basis of a program to get pythons out of Florida and into qualified hands that can securely and humanely house them for the rest 

of their natural lives. USARK has great expertise in regards to 

pythons, how to find them, where to find them, reproductive behaviors, predation, et cetera. Unfortunately, in our view, the Federal 

Government has failed to capitalize on this vast pool of knowledge 

and experience to most effectively address the issue of feral Burmese pythons in Everglades National Park in South Florida. 

Beyond the invasiveness of the Burmese python, it is our fear 

that the issue is becoming overly politicized and media driven, thus 

28 

creating a situation where we selectively interpret the available 

science. This is an issue area especially in this Committee that 

isn’t especially well known and thus lends itself to misinformation 

and overgeneralizations. 

USARK estimates that today there are over 4 million boas and 

pythons in captivity in the United States today. This is not just 

about imported animals. This is about animals that have existed 

in the United States for over 30 years, and will continue to exist, 

because there are no provisions in this bill to address the number 

of animals that are already in captivity in the United States. 

USARK has been developing and employing best handling practices and accreditation, and welcomes a more in-depth discussion in 

this regard with congressional administrative officials. It is our belief that the best management practices and professional standards 

specific to certain reptiles is what is needed, not Draconian measures that will only succeed in destroying a viable industry and 

many American jobs. 

Some have characterized the two USGS reports as proof that the 

country is in immediate peril from a swift takeover of our parks 

and natural areas by pythons and boas. We believe this to be overstated. These two reports have been widely criticized by respected 

scientists. These reports are filled with errors, inaccuracies, and 

very little actual supporting data. 

U.S. Fish and Wildlife has an evaluation process under way. 

H.R. 2811 assumes an outcome that may not be the reality. It does 

not make provisions for all of the animals already in captivity. I 

suggest policy and strong science take precedent over political expedience. Thank you very much for your time. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Wyatt follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF ANDREW WYATT


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Wyatt. 

Dr. Jacobson. 

TESTIMONY OF ELLIOTT R. JACOBSON, DVM, Ph.D, DACZM, 

PROFESSOR OF ZOOLOGICAL MEDICINE, COLLEGE OF VETERINARY MEDICINE, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, GAINESVILLE, FL 

Dr. JACOBSON. Chairman Scott, Members of the Subcommittee, I 

want to thank you for allowing me to be here today to discuss H.R. 

2811. 


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As background, I would like to say I grew up in Brooklyn, New 

York. That was my home until I was 22. And I fell in love with 

reptiles not because they are all over New York City. And there are 

not alligators in the sewer system in New York. There never were. 

And so these myths about these animals get distorted and especially in movies. 

And for whatever reason, I was captivated by these animals. My 

father used to take me to the American Museum of Natural History. I would go in the reptile hall and just could spend hours there 

and to the Bronx Zoo. And then the Staten Island Zoo, which was 

unique in that almost the whole zoo at that time was a snake collection. It is a very, very unique experience. 

And these animals have guided me through my entire life. I have 

gone through to graduate school initially working on my master’s 

and Ph.D. Working with reptiles and amphibians as my research 

animals. I had die-offs of animals in my colonies while doing research and decided veterinary medicine was an area I wanted to 

go into to learn more about the disease problems of these animals 

both as research animals, wild animals. And when I graduated 

from veterinary school in 1975, I was a wildlife veterinarian for the 

State of Maryland from 1975 through 1977 working through the 

University of Maryland. 

And then I went on to the University of Florida in 1977 because 

of its long history of herpetologists that were in the zoology department at the University of Florida and the creation of the new veterinary college. And I went there and, with others, built a program 

in zoo animal medicine, which is one of the top in the world, if not 

the top. 

And all of these experiences, I have had contacts with a wide variety of animals as a zoo veterinarian, from sea lions to elephants 

to giraffes to reptiles, and I have been bitten by a lot of animals 

over the years, more than most people would like to consider. 

But I will tell you what was the most significant bite that sent 

me in the emergency ward; people don’t realize. My cat. I was bathing my cat. It bit me through my finger. I got a Pasteurella septicemia. I had to go to the emergency ward and be put on IV antibiotics. Most people don’t realize that cats have some pretty potent 

pathogens, and they give more significant bites in terms of infection than probably dogs. And feral cats are a major issue. 

I just wanted to get that on the table so the reality of some of 

these exposures are really known, and the reality is that there are 

a lot of domestic animal exposures. And pet ownership is—bad pet 

ownership is not just sacred to reptile people. It extends across all 

the domestic animals that we have. 

So I was asked to look at this document and make comments on 

it because of what it may result in. And the one thing I am struck 

with this document is one—and it clearly states it up front; there 

is no hiding it, but it’s not really dwelled upon—is their model is 

full of uncertainty. And there is probably more uncertainty in this 

document than there is certainty, and that is because the biological 

status of these animals in the wild is for the most part unknown. 

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ment, being killed by people. And, but probably loss of habitat is 

the biggest thing. 

And the other thing, which is somewhat over—it grabs your attention. These maps are very visually appealing of seeing an area 

in green where potentially the Burmese python could invade. But 

these maps are based on climate and climate only. And it is stated 

in here, and it is not dwelled upon, that climate is only one factor 

in the geographic distribution of an animal. There are many other 

factors that if you took this and layered it with all the other factors 

on top, you would come down with a very restricted range, I would 

expect, for the Burmese python. And we know there has an ecological disaster in Southern Florida, absolutely no doubt about that 

with the Burmese python. 

I would like to make an analogy so you can—this is a good analogy. The Florida panther and the Burmese python overlap to a 

great degree in their habitat. Why is that? Well, it is the last wild 

place in South Florida. As Florida panthers try to move north, they 

get killed. As Burmese pythons try to move north out of the Everglades, my expectation—here is what I propose. Get a couple of 16- 

foot pythons, see how long it takes them to cross I-10 and see if 

they survive. That would be a study that would give you an idea 

of how difficult it is for these animals to cross roads. A lot of the 

Florida panthers that were lost were lost in Alligator Alley because 

they were hit by a car which resulted in changes. 

And so if the Florida panther was just limited by climate, it 

would up in the Adirondacks. Climate does not truly represent why 

the Florida panther is only in South Florida, and the same could 

be said for the Burmese python. 

And, for me, I don’t see a convincing argument scientifically, as 

a scientist, where all these other species are going to become established. These animals have been in the pet trade since I was a 

child, so that is 50 years or more, and they have had opportunity 

to spread over 50 years in the United States. And South Florida 

has been a disaster in a lot of ways because there are all kinds of 

introduced species in South Florida, not just Burmese pythons, but 

many other introduced species and introduced plants which are a 

threat to that ecosystem. 

So, in conclusion, I want to say that, in summation, I don’t think 

we are on the edge of the cliff of a conservation disaster with the 

continued importation of most of these species. In my mind, they 

would have been established already if they were such an imminent threat because many have been brought in. 

That is not say that things need to be made better. And I think 

there can be better rules and regs. And given the state of our economy, that loss of jobs should not occur. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Jacobson follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF ELLIOTT R. JACOBSON


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Dr. Jacobson. 

Ms. Perry. 


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TESTIMONY OF NANCY PERRY, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, THE HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED 

STATES, WASHINGTON, DC 

Ms. PERRY. Thank you, Chairman Scott, Ranking Member 

Gohmert, Representative Goodlatte, and other Members of the Subcommittee. 

My name is Nancy Perry, and I am vice president of government 

affairs for the Humane Society of the United States. We are the 

Nation’s leading animal protection organization with more than 11 

million supporters nationwide. That is one in every 28 Americans. 

And we work very hard to create a humane and a sustainable 

world, and that is a world that would benefit people as well. 

We are a mainstream force against cruelty, against neglect, and 

against exploitation. And we are the most trusted voice in extolling 

the human-animal bond. Our mission is to celebrate animals as 

well as to confront cruelty, and we will be talking about that, both 

ends of that today. 

We work to investigate cruelty and to enforce existing laws as 

well as to educate the public, and we are the lead disaster relief 

agency in the country for natural disasters and other forms of disasters. We also engage in the direct care of thousands of animals 

at our network of sanctuaries, rescues, rehab centers, and we have 

a mobile veterinary clinic. 

We really appreciate this opportunity to testify in favor of H.R. 

2811, which will add certain pythons to the list of injurious species 

prohibited for the import and interstate commerce. We support the 

bill, and we urge that it be amended to include all nine species of 

large constrictor snakes identified as posing a genuine risk to people or the environment by the new USGS report. If some of these 

snakes are included and others are not, then the trade will simply 

shift between giant constrictor snakes, and that is a great concern 

to us. 

When Congress has acted on the trade of other dangerous wild 

animals as pets, it has acted comprehensively. You may recall, in 

2003, Congress banned the interstate commerce of big cats, lions, 

tigers and other large cats, as pets, and it passed that prohibition 

unanimously. 

It also this session passed a comprehensive prohibition on primates as pets in the Captive Primate Act by a large bipartisan 

vote. 

We think that H.R. 2811 should do the same thing. It should address this entire category of giant constrictor snakes that USGS 

has just provided tremendous scientific background on. Otherwise, 

this Committee will have to keep coming back and adding species, 

tragedy by tragedy by tragedy. 

H.R. 2811 will not take away anyone’s pet. This merely addresses the interstate commerce, not the possession within a State. It 

really tries to target the exotic commercial pet trade. So people who 

own these animals will continue to keep them, and they will retain 

responsibility for them. 

These animals could continue to move across State borders for 

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ship of snakes with the very real and serious public safety and ecological threats that these giant snakes pose. 

Large constrictor snakes do not belong in the pet trade for three 

reasons: The risk to public health and safety; the risk to animal 

welfare; and the risk to the environment. The danger of keeping 

large constrictor snakes as pets was already talked about today, 

and it was tragically demonstrated in July when a 2-year-old Florida girl lost her life. She was killed by a Burmese python kept as 

a pet in her home. 

Four people have actually been killed by pet pythons in the U.S. 

just since 2006, and three of them were experienced reptile handlers. Two of these fatalities were by reticulated pythons, the 

world’s longest snake, and in fact, that includes the fatality that 

occurred near Chairman Scott’s district. That was a reticulated 

python. So without an amendment to H.R. 2811, we will not even 

be addressing these snakes. 

Animal welfare of course is a major concern for us. Snakes are 

often marketed as low-maintenance pets, but the reality is keeping 

them healthy and safe and secure is very difficult. It requires a sophisticated level of care that many owners are simply not able to 

provide. These snakes grow very large very quickly, and they can 

outgrow their enclosure and escape. We have a great concern for 

the welfare of these snakes, for the pets that they can consume 

when they escape, as well as for the wildlife that they can take 

when they get out. 

Now, the environmental risk of large constrictor snakes was already well exposed and discussed in the USGS report. It is a 300- 

page document that examines nine species, and it found that all 

nine pose a high or medium risk. None of them were a low risk. 

People often purchase these animals when they are young and 

manageable. So it makes sense. We can understand that many people think that this is appropriate to do. But the snakes grow so 

quickly that they can soon escape their own enclosures, and then 

they can even be abandoned all too often outdoors if a person finds 

them unmanageable. 

Burmese pythons, boa constrictors, and probably some African 

pythons have already established themselves and are breeding as 

invasive species in Florida. There are likely tens of thousands of 

Burmese pythons in the wild, and those put a lot of other already 

imperiled wildlife at risk. 

Other States can and will be next. H.R. 2811 is an important 

step, but if only some pythons are included, the trade will shift 

from one giant snake to another. A simple Google search for one 

of these snakes will tell you immediately how readily available 

they are on the Internet. Just look up a giant constrictor or a green 

anaconda, and you will find them readily available. 

HSUS truly appreciates and celebrates these animals, but we believe that they really need to be in their natural habitat, not in 

America’s wild lands or in our communities, where they do pose 

tremendous harm to people and to the ecology. 

We really applaud Representative Meek’s leadership on this 

issue, along with Mr. Rooney, and we are looking forward to working with this Subcommittee. We applaud the Subcommittee for its 

42 

interest in this issue, for holding this hearing, and we would like 

to work with you for a comprehensive solution. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Perry follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF NANCY PERRY


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Ms. Perry. 

Mr. Horne. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE HORNE, DEPUTY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE, SOUTH FLORIDA 

WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, MSC 5100, WEST PALM 

BEACH, FL 

Mr. HORNE. Mr. Chair, Committee, thank you for inviting me to 

represent the South Florida Water Management here today. 

At the South Florida Water Management District, we are 

charged with protecting and restoring the South Florida ecosystem 

and America’s uniquely diverse Everglades River of Grass. We find 

ourselves, in doing so, combating the Burmese python and the others which have invaded. 

One of the most critical things to South Florida—we are charged 

with restoring the Everglades. And in doing so, one of the most 

critical things that are there is bird counts. I mean, and where do 

we find these snakes but in the exact place where we are trying 

to count birds and ensure that we are doing that restoration process. And we actually know that by putting tracking devices on 

them. We have found those in rookeries and—which is quite disturbing, because the birds can leave the nest. If many of them 

come in there and they see them, and of course, then there are no 

hatchlings that year, and we lose that whole part of our ecosystem. 

The snake that you see there in the picture, there was 59 eggs 

in that snake; and 58 of those 59 eggs were fertile. Many of the 

snakes we find are small. If you find any big ones, you say, well, 

maybe someone released that. But we actually do necropsies on 

those, and the things we find in them are all those species out 

there that we are trying to protect. The wood storks have been 

there. Deer have been there. Alligators of course, and the things 

you see on the list. Everything that is there are things that have 

actually been depicted that we found in them when we have done 

necropsies. 

And as far as how they travel, they can travel a mile and a half 

a day. I mean, that is pretty amazing. We have an employee that 

his sole job is to go out and look on a daily basis, and he basically 

rides the Tamiami Trail that crosses the Everglades. Almost on a 

daily basis he finds a dead snake on the road. He also runs down 

the canal, and he found the one that you have seen here today, as 

well as the 16-and-a-half footer as the largest one we found so far. 

The one that is here is basically a juvenile. It is not grown yet. You 

can only imagine when you see what is there, what are they going 

to eat? What is going to be left of the Everglades when they are 

truly done? 

And once the food source is gone, they are going to move from 

the Everglades into communities, and one can only imagine what 

happens there. Pets won’t be safe. We know that they have actually 

gotten some small farm animals that border along the Everglades, 

and actually the National Park Service was actually there and actually captured one after it just ate a gentleman’s goose in his 

yard. Because we told him—what are you all doing? We are tracking a snake. And, well, it just ate a goose. He goes, I am missing 

a goose. And they found it only a couple feet away. 

66 

So it is a real threat. And it is amazing, having spent 37 years 

working in and around the Everglades, the fact that this one guy 

basically has taken a third of the 1,248 snakes that have been 

taken in cooperation with ourselves and Everglades National Park. 

That is truly amazing. You know, when you see the Burmese 

python on the road—you see far less of the native snakes. You 

don’t see them in the same quantity you find the pythons. 

So we know they are moving. We know they have been in areas 

all over the State. I think anyone would be foolish to believe that 

in other national areas that there are not Burmese python populations, that people have released them and they are going to 

breed. As long as there is a food source and they can find another 

like species, they are going to be there. They are going to establish. 

We found a nest with hatchlings. It truly is astonishing. And the 

South Water Management is committed to try to take these out, 

and we have been out there for a long time. When we sort of seen 

them and realize how large they are, we got quite concerned and 

committed this full-time FDE just to look. And it is amazing the 

things that we have learned about them. 

And it is amazing the things that we have learned about them. 

You know, where do we go? We certainly need a bill that is going 

to help protect us. I don’t think we are ever going to get rid of the 

Burmese pythons at this point. They are firmly established. 

We have the African rock python, which we know is breeding because we found yearlings of that species as well. They are going to 

breed in the wild. As long as there is a food source they are going 

to flourish. I mean, they are very adaptive. They are ambush hunters and they are going to be there. You are not going to see them 

a lot, but we have found them, we have taken one right down the 

canal bank from where families with small children were fishing 

and we have taken the snake down and said have you seen any of 

these, and most people don’t because they camouflage themselves 

quite well. But the reality is they are there. 

One of our Wildlife and Fish Commissioners was telling me he 

had never seen one until we started sending pictures to him almost 

of a daily basis of the ones that we had taken, and he could not 

believe it, which pushed the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission 

to do more and to go out and start the hunts. The people that have 

just started looking for them, only found the 37 this year, but they 

just started. I mean, and it is one of those things that you have 

to, you know, kind of develop a theme for and looking at them and 

actually being able to find them. 

I think, in conclusion, I would like to say the South Florida 

Water Management District and other agencies is trying to contain 

the documented damage and growing threat of Burmese python 

and other invasive animals in Florida. The flow of potentially 

harmful exotic animals across our border continues. 

Just for one example, roughly 144,000 boa constrictors were imported into the United States between 2000 and 2007. Federal action is needed now to address the immediate threat posed by the 

giant constrictors which have and are likely to establish in our Nation’s wilderness areas. 

Without prevention, preventative measures to limit the future introduction, we will continue to inherit costly and permanent manVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:38 Jul 20, 2010 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00070 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\110609\53232.000 HJUD1 PsN: 53232
67 

agement liabilities at taxpayers’ expense. Quite simply, prevention 

is the only financially efficient, it is the only feasible means of controlling invasive and adaptive cryptic organisms like the Burmese 

python. 

While the amendment does not meet the larger need to modernize the injurious wildlife provisions of the Lacey Act, it is an important stopgap to limit the importation of high risk giant constrictor species, and it is a sorely needed measure to help us protect and restore the Everglades ecosystem. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Horne follows:] 

68 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF GEORGE HORNE


Horne-1.eps
69 


Horne-2.eps
70 


Horne-3.eps
71 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. And I want to thank all our witnesses for 

their testimony. We will now pose questions under the 5-minute 

rule. And I will start by recognizing myself for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Ashe, we have heard the term, all nine species of constrictor 

snakes. Are there large snakes that are not constrictor snakes? Are 

there any large snakes that are not constrictor snakes? 


Horne-4.eps
72 

Mr. ASHE. I am not an expert on snakes, Congressman, and I am 

thinking there are large snakes that are not constrictors. 

Mr. JACOBSON. There are several. You look at venomous snakes, 

the King cobra is listed at 16 foot, 18 foot. And then you get into 

the Bushmaster, which is up at about 12 feet from Costa Rica, Central America, and South America. So there are a couple of venomous snakes that get up to that size. Some of the snakes related 

to the Indigo snake that is Florida, there is a whole series of those 

snakes that go all the way down through Central America and into 

northern South America, and they get up to 8 to 10 feet. And so 

they are a sizable snake. 

But generally, the ones mentioned in this report, not only is their 

length but their girth. They get, you know, heavy. There are other 

long pythons from Australia that are much thinner and just don’t 

have the impressive size of these snakes. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Horne, you have indicated that you have been observing this phenomenon. Have you seen a significant increase over 

the last few years? 

Mr. HORNE. Yes, sir, we have. Really, this past year we have 

started seeing them, the road kills. I mean, before you would see 

one occasionally. But let me—literally, this week there has been 

four that our employees have sent back pictures of because we document GPS every one of them that we find. And they are truly all 

over. And particularly we find yearlings and we find up to about 

six footers. The larger ones we don’t typically find as road kill but 

the yearlings when they are moving out and moving to other areas 

we do find them. 

Mr. SCOTT. Have you seen a significant increase over the last few 

years? 

Mr. HORNE. Yes, sir. The others that we were finding we were 

actually going out and hunting, we were finding them on levees. 

These actually we are finding are road kills where they have just 

been literal run over crossing the road. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Ashe, you indicated the term ‘‘economic analysis’’; what is involved in that? 

Mr. ASHE. We would do, in the context of our compliance with 

the Regulatory Flexibility Act and executive orders on economic— 

looking at economic implications of regulatory actions, we would, in 

the process of moving our Lacey Act determination forward, we 

would look at the economic impact of a Lacey Act determination. 

So as part of our administrative process—— 

Mr. SCOTT. I mean, what is considered on economic impact? 

Mr. ASHE. Excuse me, sir? 

Mr. SCOTT. What is considered when you talk about economic impact. 

Mr. ASHE. Many of the things that Mr. Wyatt spoke to in his testimony. We would consider the impact on small businesses in particular, you know, revenue, business revenue related to trade in 

these species and the implications of regulating trade for business 

enterprises. 

Mr. SCOTT. And would you, would the impact on the ecosystem 

and danger to humans be part of that analysis? 

Mr. ASHE. Absolutely. That is the main piece of our Lacey Act 

determination, would be whether the snakes present a danger to 

73 

humans, to ecological systems, and to endangered and threatened 

species. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Wyatt, do you want to respond to that on the economic analysis? And also respond to what would happen, what is 

supposed to happen to these snakes as they grow. 

Mr. WYATT. Well, it would have a significant impact on the 

American economy. There are approximately 5 million Americans 

would be negatively impacted with the passage of this bill if it were 

to include all nine species. You are talking about thousands of 

small business owners and we are talking about people who are 

not, don’t have 401(k)s. They are small business people who have 

plowed all their money back into their projects, and so not only 

would this bill bankrupt them and stop them, and eliminate their 

ability to make a living, but their asset values would basically go 

to zero overnight. And that actually creates quite a problem of logistics that this bill does not account for in the fact that there 

would be approximately 4 million. We are not talking about import 

here. The import is fairly insignificant to the trade in reptiles, as 

we represent it. We are talking about the captive bred trade and 

very high quality, valuable animals, and there is about 4 million 

of them in captivity of them right now. This bill makes absolutely 

no provision for what would happen to those animals. 

It was spoken to by the lady from HSUS that everyone would be 

able to keep their animals. But when you are invested in a business and your asset value goes to zero, and now you are put into 

a position where you have to care for many animals that are not 

going to be of economic value to you anymore, it creates quite a 

logistical problem and is going to open up a can of worms into what 

is going to happen with these animals. 

The best tool to address that issue is the trade, the captive bred 

trade that is continuing to go on, because we work with very sophisticated standards, and we have worked at the State level in 

North Carolina, and we are looking at introducing a bill into the 

Chairman’s home State of Virginia in 2010 and South Carolina as 

well that puts professional standards on how these animals are 

housed, cared for, safety protocols, escape recovery plans, and that 

type of thing. 

So you are not talking about a casual pet in the context of these 

particular animals. You are talking about an animal that needs to 

be looked after in a certain way and professional standards are required as a matter of State law. 

We are also developing a national accreditation system where 

you could have a more uniform way to address that across the 

board. And we would welcome the opportunity to discuss with the 

Committee, turn this into a policy discussion. 

Mr. SCOTT. Well, if somebody has one of these pets, what happens when the pet continues to grow? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, you would continue to take care of the animal. 

I mean, they grow to certain sizes, but, I mean, the people who are 

serious about this and would adhere to these kinds of regulations 

that are widespread across the United States, most States have 

regulations in place. The State of Florida has professional standards. The State of Texas has professional standards. So if—— 

74 

Mr. SCOTT. Is there any limit as to who can own these in their 

homes? 

Mr. WYATT. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you are not maintaining 

the animals at a certain level of security, accounting for them with 

the documentation, micro chipping, providing for escape prevention 

and recovery protocols, safety protocols, et cetera, these are all 

things that have been accounted for and they exist in Florida right 

now. It is a fairly new provision that has barely had a chance to 

take effect, but we are bringing more and more people into compliance all the time. 

Mr. SCOTT. Provision in what? Are people licensed to have these 

pets? 

Mr. WYATT. Yes. I believe though Dr. Elliott wants to address 

this. 

Mr. JACOBSON. I am permitted. I have a lot of reptiles that I 

keep at home, and including venomous snakes. And they fall under 

the same permitting as the giant constrictors, and most of them 

are on State permitting, which has become much more elaborate in 

Florida over the last couple of years. Disaster plans have to be 

filled out. You have to list a veterinarian who is going to be involved in, if it is an elephant or whatever, to being able to mobilize 

the animal to move it in case there is a hurricane. 

There are people in Florida with elephants and lots of cats. And 

so there is a pretty rigorous permitting. And it seems like every 

time the law enforcement comes over I am away. And then my wife 

has to take around the agent, and she then discovers I have a new 

snake. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. And I do appreciate all the testimony 

and expertise. And Dr. Jacobson, the phenomenal amount of education and training and experience you have. I was an Eagle Scout, 

got some training there and in science classes, but also as a father 

of girls who loved cats. You are the expert. I am sure it is necessary sometime, but I would give you the same advice I gave my 

daughters. Quit bathing those cats. You are going to get hurt. 

But I was curious, what species or specimen is worth $100,000? 

I think Mr. Wyatt mentioned that. 

Mr. JACOBSON. The herpeticulture trade, and Andrew will have 

further comment on it. I followed it and what it has turned into 

is designer reptiles, animals with unusual colors, whether they are 

albinos or they have certain genes that are missing and take out 

a pigmentation and cause a different color change, no different 

than people have been doing breeding of fish, of koi and goldfish 

with different color traits. And certain color traits, because they are 

the first of that color trait, and some of them are very—I mean, 

beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and there is a color beauty 

in some of these animals. And that is where the trade has really 

gone to a large degree. And it has gone to smaller snakes. There 

are very small pythons. Not all pythons are big. But the bulk of 

the industry now is the ball python and all the color morphs of ball 

pythons they go from 10K to 30K or 40K. But as more and more 

of those get bred then the price comes down and then people are 

looking for something else to breed that has a different variant in 

75 

it. And that is how a lot of the herpeticulture business has gone 

over the last 15 years. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, that brings me to another question. What 

is the difference—and this is for anyone. What is the difference between the snakes that are included in the ban in the bill and those 

that were excluded by the amendment? What is the distinction? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, as far as the ones that were, the ones that are 

being proposed to be put back in the bill, you know the boa constrictor makes up a huge amount of the trade in the United States. 

The two biggest components of trade in snakes in the United 

States is the ball python and the boa constrictor. And you were 

asking about animals with a high value. There has been ball 

python morphs that have sold for as much as $100,000 for one individual specimen, and that is where a lot of the trade is. 

So when you start talking about stopping the trade in those animals, then you are talking about a lot of money and a lot of people. 

If you are talking about the Burmese python, that is much more 

limited. You know, there may be, you still have a sizeable number 

of animals in the United States, maybe 100,000 or so, but the trade 

is not nearly as widespread and—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. But as far as physical distinctions or killing propensity, those kind of things, is there a distinction between those 

that are being sought to keep in and those that are banned? Ms. 

Perry? 

Ms. PERRY. Actually I think a really important point is that the 

reticulated python is responsible for half of the deaths in the last 

few years, and that snake is not included currently with the 

amended version. And, in fact, in a recent USGS press release they 

talk about how that snake is known for unprovoked attacks in the 

wild. 

So I think we are really overlooking some important species. 

These are all giant constrictor species. 

Mr. ASHE. Mr. Gohmert, I think one important aspect as well 

from the standpoint of enforcement, a lot of these shakes, especially when they are younger, and this is part of the USGS risk assessment, is they are difficult to distinguish. And so from the 

standpoint of an agency that would have to do enforcement, listing 

only a segment of these snakes, particularly because they were all 

identified as having either medium or high risk, but listing only 

two of them would complicate our enforcement because especially 

when they are smaller they are difficult to distinguish. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, there was—Congressman Meek mentioned 

that there are no natural predators in Florida. And I was wondering you know, are there natural predators to the large pythons? 

And how is the population controlled in countries where they are 

native? 

Mr. JACOBSON. I would like to comment because that is a—in the 

report it is mentioned on page 6, this lack of predators. And the 

fact is these animals don’t hatch out at 400 pounds. They hatch out 

at about 20 inches or 24 inches maybe. And there are a multitude, 

I will guarantee you there will be a multitude of animals that will 

prey upon them. And when you look at replacement of most animals to have a stable population, you are looking at a replacement 

of two over the life span. When you look at see turtles with 100 

76 

and 100 plus eggs, most of those babies are dead before they make 

it out to sea. And so that is the process in the real world. And I 

would expect that storks to kites to king snakes, indigo snakes, raccoons, wild pigs, feral pigs down there, which are real problematic 

also, conservation wise, they would eat up snakes. And none of 

these pythons is going to eat a big, big alligator. And there is just 

no, that 6-foot alligator yes, and that animal died trying to eat that 

alligator. And that may be the limit to what a big python can contain. And when you see alligators that are 13 feet, they can prey 

on snakes smaller than them. They can. 

And so that statement to me is not correct. It is not correct. It 

doesn’t account for all the babies and what happens to them the 

first year of their life. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I had a second part to the question though. If 

there was, how populations were controlled in countries where they 

are native. 

Mr. JACOBSON. Well, they are contracting. In almost all of these 

cases, and you will see this almost worldwide, that populations of 

all kinds of animals, including these big snakes, are becoming more 

and more condensed as habitat is lost. And these snakes generally 

don’t do well with humans, and they get killed off. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. ROONEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ashe, Chairman 

Scott was asking you about the economic impact on, and you were 

talking about with regard to business. I am curious with regard to 

Florida’s tourism economy. Does that weigh into the factor of your 

economic impact? 

Mr. ASHE. It would. Congressman, I think one thing that is important as we think about economic impact is that, as has been 

talked, discussed a little bit, we are talking about a constrained 

natural environment, the Everglades, on which the United States 

citizens and the citizens of Florida are expending billions of dollars 

to restore in large part to conserve species of wildlife that are 

greatly imperiled and listed under the Federal Endangered Species 

Act. And if we can’t control the source of, this source of potential 

threat to those species then the other citizens and the other economy of the State of Florida has to absorb that impact as we then 

try to conserve those threatened and endangered species. 

So it is not just simply a question of what would be the impact 

of listing these species under the Lacey Act, but what would be the 

economic impact of not listing them and not controlling them because then more of the burden for Florida panther recovery and 

wood stork recovery and Everglades kite recovery and Florida wood 

rat recovery will fall on other aspects of the Florida economy. 

Mr. ROONEY. And Mr. Wyatt, you were speaking of the research 

and the regulation and the nature going into the Carolinas. And 

you know, one of the concerns or questions I guess I have for you 

is that from what I understand in Florida now we are tagging 

these snakes that are issued as pets or sold in the free market. 

There is regulation with people that want to own, as you said. But 

some of these snakes, if not a lot of these snakes, and maybe Mr. 

Horne can weigh in on this, that are being found aren’t the ones 

that have the micro chip in them or aren’t the ones that are 

tagged. They are the ones that are being born. And I guess my conVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:38 Jul 20, 2010 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00080 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\110609\53232.000 HJUD1 PsN: 53232
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cern here is are these snakes getting out of control in the Everglades with the picture that we see there with the eggs. And it has 

nothing to do with how well you are doing your job or the snake 

industry has been doing their job. We have got a problem in South 

Florida that has gotten out of control. Do we have a responsibility 

to do something about that. 

Mr. WYATT. I don’t disagree, Congressman Rooney, that Burmese 

pythons are a problem in South Florida. What level of problem 

they turn out to be, the science will discover in time. The thing 

about it is that we are talking about some separate issues here, 

and there is no doubt that there is an established population of 

Burmese pythons in south Florida. 

One of the best tools that Florida has to help address those 

issues is the people that have the most experience in it. You know, 

oftentimes, in these government agencies that are tasked to take 

care of these issues, the personnel tasked to handle these issues 

simply do not have the expertise, as illustrated by Mr. Ashe, in 

how to deal with these animals. Well, you have got a large pool of 

knowledge here accumulated over years and years and years and 

years that you can tap into as far as—but one of the things is 

snakes can be tracked by dogs. And that is not something that has 

been fully explored because you haven’t brought in people that 

have the experience on how to train dogs in that manner. You 

know, you can’t find panthers without dogs either. It is hard to— 

you know, so these animals can be trained to track them down. 

And there is a myriad of ways that you can start to address the 

issues that we would love to become part of the policy discussion 

on how to help Florida address these things. 

And as far as the provisions that Florida has already put in 

place, it is a matter of public relations and public education and 

bringing more and more people into compliance. And that has been 

problematic. But the bill, the statute has not been in place that 

long, and we are working with the State of Florida right now, with 

FWC, to bring a higher profile to the statutes that are in place, and 

bringing more and more people into compliance, and that will lead 

to less and less problems. 

Mr. ROONEY. I appreciate your offer to extend that knowledge 

and expertise, and I think it should be tapped into to the other 

members of the panel. 

Real quick, before I run out of time, Mr. Horne, can you give us 

a rough estimate of South Florida Water Management and what 

has been spent to actually remove these snakes from State land? 

And then I have a really quick follow-up question, which I am 

going ask right now because my time is out. You talk about, you 

know, how many snakes that we have caught with the trappers 

that you have. And one of the questions that I always get from the 

public, so this is a question that I am relaying from my constituents. We have hunting seasons for alligators. We have tag limits, 

bag limits, whatever you want to call them. And the estimates for 

the Burmese python in the Everglades, you know, can get into the 

hundreds of thousands, depending on who you are asking, who you 

believe. Why don’t we have a system where it is open to the public 

with regulated bag limits and things like that like we have for alliVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:38 Jul 20, 2010 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00081 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\110609\53232.000 HJUD1 PsN: 53232
78 

gator hunts? Why are we only using South Florida Water Management contracted people in the limited basis we are now? 

Mr. HORNE. Well, basically it is one full-time FTE, is basically 

what we are spending on it now. And we have 10 that are trained 

to actually identify, but only one to truly take the snake. Because 

of the concerns with the larger snakes and their ability to be injurious to people, we do not allow except for the one person which 

is licensed to actually take them with a gun. 

The reason Fish and Wildlife is concerned about opening to anyone is because they want people that are trained, because the ability for them to get hurt is pretty dramatic as well. They are hard 

to see, they camouflage very well. Actually, the gentleman that 

hunts them for us, he has a unique ability; he can smell them, and 

he sees them quite well, which, you know, everyone can’t do that. 

I mean, it is quite unique to go on a hunting trip with him when 

he rides down and basically he just rolls down the levee in a pickup 

truck and he can spot them in the bushes or he will smell them. 

He has actually said many times I have been out, I smell one here. 

So they are hard to see, they are hard to track and of course it 

is in the Everglades. I mean, it is not easily accessible and typically, you know, they are down low. They are not up where you can 

easily see them, so people don’t look for them. 

Mr. ROONEY. I thank the Chairman, and I will yield back. But 

I would request in any future meetings that we have the snake 

smeller testify next time. Please. I would love to hear from him. 

Mr. HORNE. He is quite a character. 

Mr. SCOTT. We have been joined by the gentlelady from Florida 

who has also been very active in this issue. Gentlelady from Florida, Ms. Wasserman Schultz. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And first 

let me take this opportunity to commend my colleague who testified on the first panel, Congressman Meek, and my colleague, Mr. 

Rooney, from the great State of Florida. I just have a couple of 

questions. 

Mr. Wyatt, where do you live? 

Mr. WYATT. I live on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. And so it is safe to assume that you 

don’t live near the area where there are now 100,000 Burmese 

pythons or African rock pythons overrunning the Everglades, do 

you? 

Mr. WYATT. No, ma’am, I do not. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Do you have children? 

Mr. WYATT. I am here representing the United States Association of Reptile Keepers, which has our largest membership in your 

State. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Do you have children? 

Mr. WYATT. Yes, ma’am. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. I assume they don’t live near the 

more than 100,000 non-native Burmese pythons and African 

pythons that have overrun Everglades. 

Mr. WYATT. No, ma’am. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Okay. So it is safe to assume that 

while you represent an organization that supports people being 

able to keep as many reptiles as they want to, that it doesn’t really 

79 

affect you or most of your members because they don’t live anywhere near the real problem. Correct? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, quite a few of our members do live right 

around the problem and in fact it is our members that have helped 

the Florida Fish and Wildlife establish the python removal plan 

and have the greatest level of expertise in dealing with the pythons 

in South Florida. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of 

questions as it relates to your view because you say you have recommendations to help address the problem. How are we going to 

limit the likelihood of continued abandonment and other irresponsible handling of these animals because, you know, while you might 

think there is a responsible way to, in your mind, address this 

problem, which is somehow different than banning the 2 or 9 or 45 

species of pythons that are non-native that have been released into 

the environments in which they don’t belong, but yet they thrive 

and threaten to overrun the ecosystem? What is it that you are recommending to your members and what aggressive proactive steps 

are you taking to ensure that your members who are the keeper 

of these pets are making sure that they are not being irresponsible? Because the reason that we have this problem is because of 

the people who keep these pets and can’t handle them anymore 

and just let them go into the environment. So what guidelines and 

what steps is your organization taking to make sure that that irresponsible behavior doesn’t continue to make this problem worse? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, Florida is already on the right track by instituting professional standards for maintaining these animals, okay. 

You cannot—— 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. But I would like to know what your 

organization is doing. Since you are the one that is advocating on 

behalf of people being able to keep these pythons, what do you provide in terms of guidance to your members? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, we have a model State legislation that we just 

passed in North Carolina this year that we are introducing into 

Virginia and South Carolina, and similar programs are in place in 

many States around the country. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. But I note that you didn’t say Florida. 

Is there a reason? 

Mr. WYATT. Florida has established their system which we used 

as a model 2 years ago. It is a matter of bringing more and more 

people into compliance. The job of public relations may be—— 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. But you would agree that once you 

have 100,000 snakes overrunning an ecosystem, that the horse is 

out of the barn, so to speak. So let me ask another question. 

Mr. WYATT. But it does provide a framework to be able to address the situation. It is much like drinking and driving is against 

the law. Okay? If you drink and drive you are going to be—— 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Okay, with all due respect, what details, specifically what steps, proactively, are you taking to make 

sure that your members don’t release these, quote/unquote, pets 

into the environment when they can’t handle them anymore? 

Mr. WHITE. By requiring professional caging standards, safety 

protocols, safe recovery—— 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. What ensures that they do that? 

80 

Mr. WYATT. Excuse me? 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. What ensures that they follow those 

guidelines. 

Mr. WYATT. Well, there is no overriding force that will force anyone to obey any law. But by providing the framework and the remedy of legal recourse through the court system, that is how this 

country operates. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Isn’t that the reason that we need the 

standards in the first place because you can’t be in every pet owner’s home. 

Mr. WHITE. That is correct and that is why we are implementing 

those standards around the country in the very few places where 

they are not already implemented. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Okay. Can you describe for me what 

you mean by your more measured approach than the approach that 

this bill takes? What is a more measured approach than not allowing these pythons to be imported into the country? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, this is not just about import. It is about interstate transport, and that would destroy the trade. So it is not just 

about import. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. What do you mean by more measured 

approach? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, H.R. 2811 will not succeed in providing the 

remedy that you seek. Okay, it is not going to change anything in 

the Everglades. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. But you are not defining anything. 

What is your—you say in your testimony that you think we should 

take a more measured approach. Define that for me. 

Mr. WYATT. By turning this into a policy discussion instead of 

trying to discuss this in the realm of political expediency. There is 

a scientific process in place that US Fish and Wildlife Service—— 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Policy discussions don’t prevent 

snakes from going so large that they swallow alligators, okay? They 

don’t. 

Mr. Horne, thank you for being here. It is a real pleasure to work 

with the South Florida Water Management District, and I appreciate your expertise here. The South Florida Water Management 

District is obviously working hard on Everglades restoration. And 

I wonder if you could share with the Committee just how difficult 

it has become to focus on your restoration efforts, which I know is 

all consuming, while simultaneously having to deal with and divert 

resources to dealing with the python problem. 

Mr. HORNE. Well, since we work in the Everglades, we find ourselves, you know, training staff to look for snakes and protect 

themselves against the snakes. We have found the snakes in pump 

stations. We have found the snakes inside water control structures. 

I mean, in the beginning when we first started seeing them, some 

of our staff, which thought they were doing the right thing, actually tried to capture one which was quite large and it got loose in 

the truck and they had to abandon the truck. We have had scientists taking water samples actually chased from the water’s edge 

all the way back to the vehicle by a very large snake and ended 

up running over it in a truck. 

81 

So we are confronted with something that we never had to deal 

with before. And then you put on top of that as part of the Everglades restoration, one of our critical measures are we being successful is bird counts. And we know for a fact and we have photographed them and tracked them, those snakes were in the rookeries when the birds are there, you know, which makes them abandon their nests. It means that we are going to fail. I mean, there 

is nothing we can do about that. And it is very frustrating and we 

don’t really know how to deal with it because we are sure, relatively positive we are not going to be able to get rid of these 

snakes. They are going to be there forever. And that means we are 

going to fail. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Mr. Chairman, I know my time has 

expired but if I can just ask Mr. Horne one more question. Are you 

concerned that—tell me what you think the consequences are to 

not banning the further import of these kinds of snakes. 

Mr. HORNE. I think there is going to be future populations of different kind of snakes. I mean, we already know that we have 

snakes in Miami-Dade County on the Deering Estate. We have rock 

pythons in the Bird Drive Basin. We have yellow anacondas in Big 

Cypress National Preserve and Myakka River State Park. We already know they are there and different species are there. It is only 

a matter of time and food source that those populations explode as 

well. 

And knowing from that picture the number of eggs that those 

things lay, the parent snake stays with them until they hatch, so 

they are guarded, so there is not any other predator that is going 

to come and eat them until they hatch, we are doomed. We are 

truly doomed. 

Ms. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ. Mr. Chairman, once or twice a year, 

I look in my backyard, and we live on a lake that connects to the 

Everglades. I live about 2 miles from the Florida Everglades. And 

once or twice a year I look out my backyard door and see an alligator lounging on the edge of the bank of the lake. Sometimes you 

see the top of their head, you know, the eyes sticking out of the 

top of the water. This has already occurred, and it is only a matter 

of time before—we have—in south Florida, we literally have a line 

that you can see right when you fly into south Florida, you look 

at the Everglades, there is a development line that puts houses on 

one side of it and the Everglades on the other. And it is only a matter of time before snakes like that one, snakes like this one end up 

in the backyards of folks with children. There are children that 

have already been eaten and we will hear more horror stories unless we take the steps that this bill suggests that we should. 

Thank you for your indulgence. I yield back the balance of my 

time. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. We are going to have another round. I 

would like to ask Mr. Ashe, is there any question that the population—I’m sorry. Thank you. 

My colleague from Virginia. I am sorry. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for 

holding this hearing. It is definitely a change of pace from health 

care reform. Can Mr. Ashe or Mr. Horne tell me what Florida laws 

82 

exist right now to deal with this? What does Florida law allow with 

regard to the ownership of these? 

Mr. ASHE. Well, basically you have to have a yearly permit that costs $100 per year, and you have to have your snake implanted 

with a device, a micro chip. But, you know the reality is—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Let me just ask you, why hasn’t Florida banned 

these snakes? I mean, I am hearing Dr. Jacobson point out that 

there are very limited places where the snake can survive in a 

habitat, a natural habitat. Obviously, Ms. Perry has attached a 

very impressive list of incidents regarding large snakes to her testimony, and they are all over the country. But I don’t find that there 

is a large population of them anywhere in the natural, in the wild, 

other than in south Florida. 

So I guess my question—I don’t object to adding this particular 

species to the legislation that we already have. But I am wondering 

why Florida hasn’t banned these snakes outright if they are this 

magnitude of a problem. 

Ms. PERRY. Congressman, Florida is actually considering legislation to enact a ban right now. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Has any State enacted legislation to ban them? 

Ms. PERRY. Yes. Hawaii prohibits ownership of snakes. Obviously, they, as an island they have unique problems. Illinois bans 

life threatening reptiles, including constricting snakes 6 feet or 

more in length. Iowa bans reticulated pythons, anacondas, African 

rock pythons. Massachusetts bans African rock pythons, reticulated 

pythons and anacondas. Montana bans African rock pythons, 

amethystine pythons, green anacondas, Indian and Burmese 

pythons, and reticulated pythons. New Jersey bans anacondas and 

New York—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. That is enough. So Florida could take action 

here that would definitely help in this regard? 

Ms. PERRY. Yes, and I think they will. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Now, on the issue of whether we should go from 

one or two, I guess the legislation now contains two of the large 

snakes. And Mr. Ashe, you have proposed and Ms. Perry, you proposed that the legislation ought to be amended to cover nine species. I take it those, are those all nine species that exist, or are 

there nine that we know that there are species that have been imported in the United States? 

Mr. ASHE. Those are the nine species that were covered by the 

U.S. Geological Survey’s risk assessment, so those are the nine species with which we have both field experience and scientific discoveries. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. All right. Mr. Wyatt and Dr. Jacobson have suggested that if you ban the two, the trade will shift. And you have 

suggested that the trade will shift to the others. Do we have any 

information in the study or elsewhere about what the various—I 

mean, are Burmese pythons the overwhelming favorite and these 

others are much smaller? Or is the ownership of these species distributed across a wide area? 

Mr. ASHE. I think, as Mr. Wyatt said, no, they are greatly distributed. Our information for 2008 in terms of importation of these 

species, we had a total of 31, over 31,000 of these nine species were 

imported into the United States legally. 

83 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Do you have it broken down by species? 

Mr. ASHE. About 24,000 of those were boa constrictors. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. So not the Burmese pythons? 

Mr. ASHE. But that is the point, is that—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. I understand. But in the wild, the problem that 

the act is designed to cover, is it only the Burmese python that is 

prevalent in south Florida in the Everglades? 

Mr. ASHE. The boa constrictor. Actually there is a naturally reproducing population of boa constrictor established in South Miami, 

and so we are finding wild and potentially reproducing individuals 

of most of these species in the area now. But once they are established, it is too late really. Just like we have seen with the Burmese python, once these species are established—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Well, let me ask you about. I mean, this is a serious problem obviously, not just for the environment but also for— 

Ms. Perry’s list includes a number of instances of people being 

killed. Many of them are in homes of people who are the pet owners, so that obviously raises some eyebrows. But I think that could 

be left to State legislation to cover what people can own in their 

homes. 

But what are we doing—Mr. Rooney tells me that his legislation 

would allow for people to go out and trap these animals and exterminate them in the wild. What are we doing to aggressively accomplish that goal? It seem to me it would be a desirable goal to eradicate this non-native invasive species that is in the Everglades and 

other places in south Florida. 

Mr. ASHE. It is absolutely the proper goal, once they are established, to try to control those populations. But what we have 

learned with invasive species in general is they are difficult to control once they are established in the wild. 

Mr. Rooney asked the question earlier about hunting. And the 

Big Cypress Preserve has opened the preserve and allowing hunters in the preserve to take pythons. And so far, in 2009, that has 

resulted in one python being killed. I mean, they are very cryptic 

animals. They are hard to find. And so you, as Mr. Horne mentioned, you really have to be a skilled individual to go out and find 

these. 

So what that means is public agencies like the Fish and Wildlife 

Service, like the Park Service, like Florida Fish and Game Department, have to expend their valuable, precious, limited resources. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. I understand. Let me let Mr. Wyatt and Dr. 

Jacobson respond. 

Mr. JACOBSON. I would like to make a comment and to reiterate 

what Andrew said a while ago. I was on the Florida Panther Recovery Team for 2 years, two seasons in the mid-80’s. I went down and 

served as a veterinarian on the team and got to know the tracker, 

Roy McBride, very well. And if it wasn’t for Roy McBride and his 

dogs, there would have been no panthers found. And that is in a 

semi-aquatic, aquatic habitat. 

The report downplays dogs because of it being a semi-aquatic 

habitat. And there is no reason for me to believe that dogs would 

not be as effective. They may not eliminate, but there is an opportunity to really do something because dogs are now trained to smell 

for bed bugs in beds in hotels. A lot of people don’t know about 

84 

that, the problem with bed bugs in hotels. But there are dogs now 

trained to smell one egg of a bed bug in a mattress. There are dogs 

that are used—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. I am convinced of the remarkable capabilities of 

dogs, and I think they ought to be utilized to find these snakes. 

Mr. JACOBSON. They need to be utilized and I will expect that the 

identification of animals in the wild is just one that will be many 

times greater than that. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Do you want to respond to the statement that 

we ought to cover all the species rather than just the two that are 

the bill because obviously somebody is probably going to offer an 

amendment to accomplish that and we are going to have a make 

a decision about that? Mr. Wyatt or Mr. Jacobson, do you want to 

respond to Ms. Perry and Mr. Ashe, who say that we ought to cover 

all nine? 

Mr. WYATT. I think that if you are using the new USGS study 

to predicate that, that the study, although you know attempting to 

characterize this situation has got a lot of flaws and there is a lot 

of uncertainty involved in it, as Dr. Jacobson testified. And so, I 

think you need—before you start to eliminate thousands of American jobs and destroy American families, you need to seriously consider all the ramifications. This is about far more than importation. 

I mean, we can—— 

Mr. GOODLATTE. What do you say to the people who point to the 

pretty significant list of a 15-year old was killed by his brother’s 

11-foot pet python; an 11-month-old boy was killed by his father’s 

10-foot pet python; 8-foot python escaped from his cage, crawled 

into an adjoining bedroom and killed a 21-month-old boy in his 

crib; 7-month-old girl was killed by her father’s 8-foot reticulated 

python. 

Again, as I say, I think that those ownership issues probably 

should be addressed by State legislation, not Federal legislation. 

But what do you say to those who say that there is a real countervailing issue here to the economic aspect? 

Mr. WYATT. I agree with you, Congressman. And you know, there 

is no doubt that there are some issues with safely maintaining 

these animals. But it can be done in a responsible manner and you 

need to take a little bit of perspective. Although all life is precious, 

if you look at the incidents involving dogs and other domestic wildlife, according to the Humane Society of the United States, there 

has been already this year over 20 deaths attributed to dogs. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. I understand that. But I also would bet two 

things, one that dogs are in a far, far, far higher percentage of 

households in the United States than large snakes are. And secondly, we, as a society, have developed ways to educate and so on 

in dealing with them. I think we are far behind that in dealing 

with these large reptiles. 

Mr. WYATT. Absolutely. And the legislation that we are pushing 

to put professional standards in place in the few places where they 

are not already in place will go a long way to addressing these 

issues. And the more public education we have in bringing more 

people into compliance, it will reduce those numbers even more. 

So you are talking about something which is not having a huge 

impact on the population as a whole. And I don’t disagree that 

85 

there are more dogs in captivity than there are big snakes. But 

there is—most of the risk associated with dealing with these animals is occupational risk. Innocent members of the public outside 

the owner’s home or facility are not being hurt by these animals 

like could even happen with a stray dog. It is people within the 

families. And oftentimes, you are going to find that these people 

are already in violation of the law, and have put themselves in a 

position where they are threatening their families. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Or the plumber or the electrician. 

Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I thank everybody on this 

panel. It is a very interesting issue. And I don’t think the solution 

is an easy one. I do think the general issue of whether or not they 

should be allowed in people’s homes is not the purview of the Congress, but the issue of whether or not non-native species should be 

imported to the United States if they do get into the wild and cause 

significant environmental damage and cause a risk to people outside of their homes is something that we should be taking into consideration. 

Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Gentlelady from Texas. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me 

thank Congressman Meek, a dear friend from Florida, and of 

course, a colleague on this Committee, Congresswoman Wasserman 

Schultz, for the thoughtfulness that has been projected into this, 

into the deliberations that we have here. 

I would like to indicate with all due seriousness as I listen to Mr. 

Wyatt, and I can appreciate the affection that those who handle 

these animals well would have and would be suspicious of a regulatory scheme. 

Let me disagree with my good friend from Virginia. I frankly believe if an animal is of such dangerous inclination that we do regulate that holding by a family in a private home, because a private 

home is also protected by the laws of this land and the Constitution. And we protect people from intruders. When I say that, the 

law doesn’t allow intruders to kick open your doors and come in, 

guns waving at you, because you are protected in your home. 

Well, the same thing. The law should protect others, whether it 

is through being overwhelmed by an oversized animal. And let me 

just say, the idea—and I use animal generic because I know some 

of the specialists will tell me that snakes are obviously in a refined 

category. But in any event, if you have the kind of size pet that 

wants to consume an alligator, then you have a problem because 

I don’t believe that that family can contain that particular pet. If 

you have one of this size, that is being measured by this group 

here, I think we have a problem. If you have one that has 58 fertilized eggs, I think we have a major problem. And what I see this 

legislation as doing is add the constrictor snake of the species 

python to section 42(A)(1) of the title 18, which is known as the 

Lacey Act, as an injurious species that would be prohibited from 

being shipped and imported into the United States. 

Now, I may be willing to go further because some people may 

find that they admire sharks. Certainly we know a whole array of 

shark incidences from the Atlantic Coast to the Pacific Ocean. I 

live on the Gulf Coast, not necessarily a haven, but someone might 

86 

want to say this is attractive; I think I can handle this. Let me get 

a shark egg and put it in my fish tank. And the question is, is that 

a responsible thing to do? 

So I think the question should be asked, and I want us to do it 

humanely as we regulate. But at the same point, I need us to realize that we have regulated a lot of things. 

There is a second amendment. That is a very volatile question 

to compare it to. But we do have a level of regulation. We want 

people to own weapons, guns, in a legal manner. We are suspicious 

of people who pile up guns in their homes with no regulatory registration, if you will. So we have to be responsible. 

So I would ask Dr. Jacobson, in your testimony you focus on the 

inherent uncertainty of risk and you seem hesitant to suggest Congressional action when there is merely a risk as opposed to an actual problem. Nonetheless, you would agree that there is a risk. 

Would you agree that there is a likelihood to some degree that 

a breeding population of pythons or one of the other constrictor 

snakes under scrutiny could emerge in another warm climate area 

in the United States? Do we have that possibility? 

I would like to—if you could just answer quickly yes or no, I 

want to get to Nancy Perry if I could, please, because I need to 

have—just if you would, sir. 

Mr. JACOBSON. Based on another paper that contradicts this report, it is south Texas. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I am sorry. 

Mr. JACOBSON. There was a paper published in a reviewed journal. This is not reviewed. This is what we call gray literature. It 

hasn’t gone through the scientific scrutiny of peer review such as 

a paper going to science or nature. And so there is another paper 

that came out that has a different model that was published. And 

it is in contrast to this. And they have a map of the U.S. showing 

the Burmese python only found suitable habitat, south Florida and 

south Texas. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. At this point in time in our history, that if 

they begin to move around the country by way of private owners, 

we may have some greater concern there. I am sure there is a climate question and a habitat question. But if there is no recognition 

that they can be both a risk and an actual problem, then there is 

the opportunity to proliferate. 

Mr. JACOBSON. Not up north, not as far as those maps depict in 

here. I lived in Missouri, and there is no way they would get to 

Missouri. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Well, let me say this. I think there is a large 

population in south Texas and Florida, so I am not necessarily suggesting to you, I would not suggest to you, I don’t pretend to be 

a specialist. But I am not pretending to suggest that they would 

proliferate. I am saying that people can do strange things. 

Mr. JACOBSON. We have had—I met someone years ago that was 

a student at Columbia University, and he had a Russell viper in 

his dorm room. And this was back in the early 70’s. This would 

never happen today because of those—it escaped and was never 

found. And there are a lot of examples of animals. They just can’t 

handle that climate. 

87 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. And I understand. But we don’t know on the 

way to his demise how many rats and other animals that he partook. I am glad he didn’t find a 2-year old. 

Nancy, let me—Ms. Perry, might I please pose—you are with the 

Humane Society. Let me get your sense of this question, or the idea 

of what we are trying to do or this legislation is trying to do. 

Ms. PERRY. Yes. Thank you, Congresswoman. I feel that the Humane Society is here to state that we believe that the USGS has 

identified snakes that, all nine snakes pose either a high or a medium risk to the environment. We already know that these giant 

constrictor snakes pose a very serious risk to people. And I think 

that we should follow the path that Congress has taken before 

when we have dealt with dangerous wild animals as pets, and we 

have been comprehensive. 

In the case of big cats, we banned all big cats. In the case of primates, we banned all primates just this year. And I think this is 

the same pattern that we need to follow here. And obviously, it is 

obvious from the testimony today, whoever you listen to, this is a 

burgeoning problem. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Absolutely. 

Ms. PERRY. Even Mr. Wyatt testifies to the burgeoning trade involved. So this is not going away, and I think we have to get out 

ahead of it. We have a problem we can’t necessarily fix with some 

of these snakes, but we darn well better get ahead of the rest of 

them. And I think it is time for an amendment that would get us 

there. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman, if I could get Mr. Horne, only 

because I think he is engaged with the population. I understand 

that the Everglades have residents and therefore I see you are in 

south Florida, and therefore large snakes of this kind would seem 

to pose a threat to your wastewater system or the residents. What 

have you found, besides the loss of life, potentially, for that size 

snake coming into an area where there are people living? 

Mr. Horne. 

Mr. HORNE. Well, we have indeed found that. We have found 

them on some small farms, as well as some properties that the district owns that we leased back, waiting on restoration. We ask the 

farmers to start a new farming practice and that would be to encircle the property from outside in. And indeed, on one of those in a 

1,500-acre parcel, we killed I believe it was 47 snakes, just by plowing them under, and of course then we went out and got them. So 

that is pretty bizarre. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. About what size were they? 

Mr. HORNE. They were anywhere from 6 to I believe around 10 

feet, most of them. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. You would not want to meet them on a dark 

night. 

Mr. HORNE. I wouldn’t want to. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. So this poses a health issue, a safety issue, 

and certainly I am not sure how many farmers, these are farmers 

farming something else, I take it? 

Mr. HORNE. They farm beans and eggplants. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. It certainly does not contribute to the business 

that they are in. 

88 

Mr. HORNE. No, ma’am, it does not. And particularly there is a 

lot of bird farmers and everything else that is in that area. If they 

are there, it only stands to reason that they have to be in other 

places. They are just not spotted, the concentrations haven’t got to 

a point where you are going to find them in the same magnitude 

that they are there. But just the fact that they are there, that there 

is enough food source in that small concentration that would hold 

so many snakes is amazing to me. So, you know, the one—that picture that I was just sent yesterday, actually a mower in a 

habitated area of Homestead actually hit one when they were mowing one of our canal banks and it was off the bank in the water 

and we have pictures of that. 

So I mean they are there. They are just not being seen in the 

same magnitude that we are finding them very close to the Everglades where they are much harder to find. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman, I live on the Gulf Coast, as I 

indicated, and I was very intimately involved, as many of us were, 

in Hurricane Katrina. And of course we know the wetlands and 

areas around the New Orleans areas. When I say wetlands, they 

are close to the Gulf Coast as well. But the whole idea of a hurricane and what it brought in, it is not too far reaching to think that 

troubles that you might have in south Florida just because of the 

nature of nature, that troubles could come about because you move 

these animals or someone brings them or however it might be 

transported. 

We are all ploughing new ground. But I do know it poses a major 

safety risk. 

And I will end on this note. I don’t want to see—these are snakes 

that we don’t want to see abused. And the import of such, the 

movement of such, the proliferating of such is abusive. If they are 

not allowed to be in their normal habitat because they are proliferating around human beings, there is an abuse question here, and 

I do believe we have the right to regulate. 

I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Just have a second round, just very brief question to 

Mr. Ashe. There is no question that the population of these snakes, 

the population is growing. Is that right? 

Mr. ASHE. No question. 

Mr. SCOTT. At some point you would imagine it would reach an 

equilibrium, where it wouldn’t grow any more? Or will it just continue to grow? 

Mr. ASHE. We do not know that. We would predict that these 

populations would expand to some point. The point has been raised 

earlier that they are residing now in a very rich ecological environment, the Everglades. At some point they are probably pretty 

happy there because there is a good steady supply of food. If they 

start to deplete that supply of food, then they would look to move 

elsewhere. And so our experience with invasive species as a whole 

is that they tend to be slow to get themselves established. Once 

they get themselves established, then they began to expand rapidly. 

Mr. SCOTT. Since they are already there and they are growing, 

what good would this bill do? 

89 

Mr. ASHE. For the species that are already there, the Lacey Act, 

listing them under the Lacey Act would provide an additional level 

of assurance and control. We will have to have a multifaceted effort 

in order to remove them or control them in the environment. For 

the species that have not been, have not established themselves in 

the natural population, that is where the Lacey Act will have the 

most effect, which is why we have asked you to include those other 

species so that we can get ahead of this curve. 

If I may, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the statement that was 

made about the USGS being gray literature and not having been 

reviewed, the USGS has a very rigorous process of objective and 

independent peer review for their products. This is a citable scientific document, has been through a rigorous process of scientific 

peer review. 

Mr. SCOTT. Dr. Jacobson, could you say a word about the growing 

population ever reaching equilibrium where it would stop growing? 

Mr. JACOBSON. I don’t have the expertise to really give you a definitive statement on it. Some of it will be based on my view on the 

Gestalt of these animals and what they do and a combination of 

biological characteristics. I would expect that at some point down 

the road, say there was no intervention at all, there would be some 

population equilibrium. And I would expect that you would probably start, as you run out of a prey base, the predators tend to get 

smaller. 

And I think this may have been experienced on Guam with the 

brown tree snake. When originally identified, those snakes before 

management plans went into effect were much larger and now they 

are smaller as they have eaten up their prey base. 

For these animals to migrate into other areas, I think that cars 

and humans will kill them. I mean, most people on the panel I expect have never had a snake as a pet or probably don’t know many 

people that have had them as pets, but there is a disdain for 

snakes, for whatever the reason is. And so they are an easy target 

in certain ways, especially when the reptile hobbyists have taken 

a long time to really get to this point and not being more proactive. 

But they are now. 

The presentation of these animals to me as dangerous is a very 

relative term because of the range of animals I have worked on. If 

you saw how they handled that big python, that animal was not 

handled as a dangerous animal. No one had control of its head. 

That was a big fat snake that probably could just barely move. 

There is a certain risk, but not I think the risk that—— 

Mr. SCOTT. My question was, how much will it continue to grow 

and what is the limitation on growth? 

Mr. JACOBSON. Without having the data to know, really, what is 

the population density and what is the prey base that is needed? 

I have heard these figures from 30,000. 

Mr. SCOTT. Can you explain prey base? 

Mr. JACOBSON. Pardon? 

Mr. SCOTT. Can you explain prey base? 

Mr. JACOBSON. Prey base is the food that these animals will feed 

upon, whether they are raccoons. 

Mr. SCOTT. So the limit on growth of the population is when they 

run out of food? 

90 

Mr. JACOBSON. Yeah. 

Mr. ASHE. Mr. Chairman, part of the concern is that the food for 

these species includes a number of animal and aquatic species that 

are listed under the Endangered Species Act. So we can’t afford to 

wait until their prey base runs out because those are critically endangered species. As I said before, as the numbers of those species 

go down, then we have to increase regulation on the other parts of 

the Florida economy. So the tourism economy and other aspects of 

the Florida economy have to absorb that addition. 

Mr. SCOTT. Is the cat out of the bag already? If you have got 

enough of these snakes floating around, the population is growing, 

the prey base is being consumed, what can we do about it? How 

much difference would this bill make one way or the other since 

the population is already growing? 

Mr. JACOBSON. They need to be worked on biologically with adequate money and for control. The problem with the brown tree 

snake was there wasn’t adequate funding, and we put a proposal 

together as part of a biotech group in the early 1990’s to USGS for 

using transgenic modern-day techniques to basically insert a gene 

into a parasite that would inhibit the reproduction of the brown 

tree snake. It was going to take 5 to 10 years to do. They have that 

project incorrectly stated in this report. And, unfortunately, with 

the review process, some things get missed. And our project wasn’t 

to take a virus and manipulate that and kill the snake with a virus 

that would kill it; it was to take a harmless parasite and put a 

gene in that would shut off some part of its reproductive cycle. 

That was going to cost about $4 million, $5 million. That was the 

end of the project. So it was not adequately funded. 

And I expect this Burmese python catastrophe in south Florida, 

unless it is funded properly, this will go on and on and on forever. 

Mr. ASHE. That is the point, Mr. Chairman. The idea that as 

we—we are doing things to help control this snake. We are expanding python capture. We are partnering with hunters. We are doing 

cooperative workshops and we are studying python movement and 

habitat. We are working on python attractants. But those are efforts that require taxpayer dollars. And I think you and Mr. 

Gohmert and the Members of the Committee understand the limitation on taxpayer dollars. 

So if we can’t prevent additional invasions from happening, then 

that means the taxpayer bears the burden of this cost as we have 

to increase our efforts at controlling these invasive exotic species, 

and so the taxpayer is the one who bears the cost of that. 

Ms. PERRY. Mr. Chairman, this legislation helps us prevent adding fuel to the fire for the Burmese and African pythons at the 

very, very least. It also provides us with a great opportunity to address the other, the entire collective group of nine constrictors that 

we already know now from USGS do pose a genuine risk to the environment. So it gives us an opportunity. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Horne. 

Mr. HORNE. The State of Florida is spending billions of dollars 

to restore the Everglades and the ecosystem that feeds that, and 

these snakes are going to actually destroy most everything that we 

are there to protect. I mean, I think that is inevitable. You actually 

heard that from Mr. Jacobson. You heard that they are going to eat 

91 

the prey base, and when what we are trying to store is gone are 

going to have basically the river grass with nothing else in there. 

And there are numerous species that is there. 

We know that they can live in other places, the Louisiana bayou, 

the Okefenokee Swamp, Texas, Mississippi. We know easily they 

can be there. They don’t have the same problem we have currently, 

but we have to anticipate they are going to have that problem 

based on this report, and the fact that in their native environment 

they live in the same type of climates, so it is only inevitable they 

are going to be there. 

The reason we need to do this, and we are absolutely in support 

of the nine species, we need to stop the importation of those. We 

are not going to stop the snakes from spreading. It is only a matter 

of time. And we talked earlier about storm events. We know that 

the Burmese moves dramatically when there has water because it 

is easier for them to move because of their size, particularly the 

large ones. So those water bodies become a conduit for them to 

move wherever. So a flood event, they are moving. They are 

spreading their habitat because they can move quickly and easily 

on that. So we definitely urge you to act on this bill. 

Mr. SCOTT. The gentleman from Texas. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. I am curious, we keep talking about 

things like Okefenokee in Georgia. You have got Louisiana bayous. 

Texas has some areas where they might could live. But have any 

of these snakes that are under discussion here been found in the 

wild in Georgia, in Louisiana, or Texas, to your all’s knowledge? 

Mr. HORNE. We certainly know in Florida they have moved because we have found them us as up as Sarasota, they have been 

found in Melbourne, and basically to consider it there you need to 

find three or four or them of them, find them in the wild. And since 

they like to be in places where they have large prey base, they are 

going to be in the swamps. 

Mr. GOHMERT. That is my question. I am just asking, I understand all of that, we covered it completely. I am just asking if any 

have been found in Georgia, Louisiana, or Texas. 

Mr. WYATT. The answer to that question is, no. And that is a notable point, because these animals have existed in captivity in the 

United States for upwards of 30 years. 

Mr. GOHMERT. That was another question I had. You mentioned 

that before, Mr. Wyatt, that there may be 4 million snakes that 

have been here for 30 years. What was the event 30 years ago that 

brought them to the United States? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, they became—well, it actually goes back farther than that and probably as far as the early history of animals 

being brought into the United States. Dr. Elliot could probably better—Dr. Jacobson could probably address that better than I can. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Why did you say 30 years ago? 

Mr. WYATT. Well, 30 years ago is when herpetoculture, the hobby 

and science of breeding reptiles, really started to take shape and 

more interest was drawn to it. But the animals were first being 

brought in, you know, as much as 60 years ago and in the case of 

some animals even much longer ago than that. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Has there ever been a python removal program 

that has been successful anywhere? 

92 

Mr. WYATT. It has only just begun in Florida. And a point there 

is that the greatest work done as far as actually proactively working to remove pythons from the Everglades has been done in a 

partnership between the State of Florida, the Florida Wildlife Commission and—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. We have been here a long time, and I am just 

going to ask you please restrict your answer to my question. I have 

zeroed in just a few answers I want, so I have facts. And unless 

somebody has answered to the contrary, then apparently there has 

not been a removal process. 

Mr. JACOBSON. No. It hasn’t been accomplished. And there are 

there has not been accomplished and there are only two snakes 

where there has been a really active removal program, and they 

haven’t succeeded. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I am also curious, and there isn’t an answer for 

this. But I wondered if a snake is labeled injurious and this kind 

of action is taken, if then that may cause a realization that, gee, 

if this snake does harm to someone, then I may have even a 

heightened civil liability than I have otherwise. Maybe now I have 

a heightened incentive to release this snake into the wild. 

And I am just wondering, do you think that is a legislate concern, that passing this bill might push people to release snakes into 

the wild that they might not otherwise? 

Ms. PERRY. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that is probably already a problem. When we have the fatality of a 2-year-old girl this 

year in July, anyone who has a snake like this has got to wonder 

whether or not they want to keep that snake. And I think we 

shouldn’t let that prevent us from getting out ahead of this problem. 

Mr. GOHMERT. With regard to thermal imaging, since it is a 

snake, I doubt that they show up on thermal imaging. Do they? 

Mr. JACOBSON. Yes, they can. They can. It depends on—we have 

done thermal imaging different reptiles. And at least in captivity, 

in the wild, too, they will go out and bask or be out in the sun. 

And so their body temperature is very highly—it is physiologically 

regulated but very dependent on the environment. They can get 

their body temperature up to, say, in the 90’s and you will pick 

that up. At night it might drop down into the 70’s or whatever. So. 

Mr. GOHMERT. There is a chance it could pick it up. 

Mr. JACOBSON. Yes. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. I was just curious. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Horne. 

Mr. HORNE. The Army Corps of Engineers has actually done 

some work on the snakes in south Florida, but there has to be a 

pretty dramatic temperature variance for them to see them, and 

they actually used a drone plane with some imaging equipment on 

it and they actually did find them. But it has to be on a day when 

there is a dramatic change in the weather, which is not something 

we typically have in Florida. So it makes it difficult there. 

Ms. PERRY. Can I address the previous question? You asked if 

these snakes are found in the wild in other States. And there is 

sort of a distinction between whether they are found and breeding 

and established, or just found in the wild because they escaped. 

And I would point you to our testimony which has this list of inciVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:38 Jul 20, 2010 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00096 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\110609\53232.000 HJUD1 PsN: 53232
93 

dents just in August of this year. In Oregon, California, Missouri, 

Utah, there are incidents of snakes being found in the wild in the 

sense that they are out and loose. And obviously, over the course 

of a summer, a snake could survive if the temperatures allowed it 

to and could cause serious incidents. 

Mr. JACOBSON. When I was growing up as a child, there were 

people I knew had snakes that escaped in the neighborhood, either 

killed or never seen again. And so there are snake escapes in probably every major city in the country, and in airports there have 

been examples. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. I would like to thank all of 

our witnesses for their testimony today. Members may have additional written questions which we will forward to you, and ask that 

you answer as promptly as possible so that the answers may be 

made part of the record. The hearing record will remain open for 

1 week for the submission of additional materials. 

Without objection, we will submit into the record letters from the 

Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council, Dr. Kenneth Crisco, Senior 

Biological Scientist, Division of Herpetology, Florida Museum of 

Natural History University of Florida, the Wildlife Society, the 

Gourmet Rodent Pet Store. 

Mr. JACOBSON. It employs 70 people and makes about $4 million 

a year. 

Mr. SCOTT. And we have requested that their letters and written 

testimony be entered into the record of the hearing. 

Without objection, the Subcommittee now stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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