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53–849 PDF 2010

S. Hrg. 111–452 

NOMINATIONS OF SUSAN TSUI GRUNDMANN AND 

ANNE MARIE WAGNER 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

OF THE

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

NOMINATIONS OF SUSAN TSUI GRUNDMANN TO BE A MEMBER AND 

CHAIRMAN, MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD, AND ANNE MARIE 

WAGNER TO BE A MEMBER, MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD 

OCTOBER 20, 2009 

Available via http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois 

PAUL G. KIRK, JR., Massachusetts 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

KRISTINE V. LAM, Professional Staff Member 

BRANDON L. MILHORN, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JENNIFER L. TARR, Minority Counsel 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

PATRICIA R. HOGAN, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Hearing Clerk 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 1 

Senator Voinovich ............................................................................................. 2 

Prepared statements: 

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 13 

Senator Voinovich ............................................................................................. 14 

WITNESSES 

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2009 

Susan Tsui Grundmann to be a Member and Chairman, Merit Systems Protection Board ........................................................................................................ 5 

Anne Marie Wagner to be a Member, Merit Systems Protection Board ............. 6 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Grundmann, Susan Tsui: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 16 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 18 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 26 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 27 

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 43 

Letter of support from AFGE .......................................................................... 81 

Wagner, Anne Marie: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 52 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 53 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 61 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 62 

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 76 

Letter of support from AFGE .......................................................................... 81 

(1) 

NOMINATIONS OF SUSAN TSUI GRUNDMANN 

AND ANNE MARIE WAGNER 

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2009 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Daniel K. Akaka 

presiding. 

Present: Senators Akaka and Voinovich. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA 

Senator AKAKA. This hearing will come to order. Good afternoon, 

everyone. This seems to be like a family affair today, and I am glad 

to note that. 

Today the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental 

Affairs meets to consider the nominations of Susan Tsui Grundmann—and her family is here—to be Chairman of the Merit Systems Protection Board, and Anne Wagner to be Vice Chairman, 

and your lovely family is here, too. I would like to extend a warm 

welcome to both of these well-qualified nominees. 

Ms. Grundmann has been an advocate for Federal workers for 20 

years. Since 2002, Ms. Grundmann has served as General Counsel 

to the National Federation of Federal Employees, a union which 

represents approximately 100,000 Federal employees throughout 

the country. Prior to that, she served as General Counsel to the 

National Association of Air Traffic Controllers. Ms. Grundmann attended the American University and received her law degree from 

Georgetown University. 

Ms. Wagner likewise has strong experience with the Federal 

workforce. She currently serves as the General Counsel to the Personnel Appeals Board, which decides personnel disputes within the 

U.S. Government Accountability Office. Prior to that, she served as 

a member of that Board for 6 years. Before joining GAO, Ms. Wagner worked for 20 years as Assistant General Counsel to the American Federation of Government Employees, the largest Federal employee union, which represents many employees in my home State 

of Hawaii. Ms. Wagner graduated from the University of Notre 

Dame and received her law degree from the George Washington 

University. 

I want to congratulate both of you on your nominations to these 

important positions. I know you both have some family and friends 

in the audience, and I want to give you the opportunity to introVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:27 Jun 01, 2010 Jkt 041456 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\53849.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
2 

duce them to the Committee. Ms. Grundmann, I have met your 

husband, Karl, and daughter Milla, who are both with us today. It 

is great to know that Milla is very studious. She has her note pad 

here. She is in the third grade and got the day off from school to 

be with us today. We hope that this hearing is something of a 

civics lesson for Milla. I also want to welcome your Mom, Min Lan, 

who is here also today. 

Ms. Grundmann, please—well, before we move to the introductions, I want to say that we are so fortunate to have our friend 

here, Senator Voinovich. He is a very busy man, and he took time 

away from the Senate floor to be here at this hearing. He was on 

the floor managing an appropriations bill, so I will ask him for his 

statement, and then he will have to leave and go back to the floor. 

So if you want to see him after this, turn on the TV. [Laughter.] 

He is on TV on the floor. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Watch me just sitting there. 

Senator AKAKA. Senator Voinovich. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR VOINOVICH 

Senator VOINOVICH. Thank you, Senator Akaka. I am pleased to 

be here, and I want the nominees to know that I have reviewed 

your qualifications, and you are both very impressive. 

With the passage of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978, Congress established the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB) to 

serve as a guardian of merit principles across the Federal workforce. Both of you are familiar with that. You will be charged with 

providing a fair and efficient forum for employees, retirees, candidates for Federal employment, and agency management alike 

when reviewing personnel decisions and agency policy. Properly 

fulfilling this role is necessary to sustain a top-notch workforce, 

and I think the reputation of that operation is important. 

In light of the coming demographic transition in the Federal 

workforce, it is vital that agencies are seen as attractive to today’s 

best and brightest. The next generation of Federal employees, 

many of whom will be joining the workforce directly from undergraduate or graduate study, are accustomed to competitive and intellectually rewarding environments. To be an attractive alternative to the private sector, prospective Federal employees must be 

assured that in the Federal sector they will succeed or fail according to the quality of their work, not by the arbitrary will of an 

agency manager or the transient initiatives of Presidential Administrations. Today’s best and brightest expect nothing less. 

At the same time, though, we must be sure that our concern for 

protecting individual employees does not grant de facto tenure for 

Federal workers. Front-line managers need the training, tools, 

flexibility, and leadership support to discipline poorly performing 

employees. When an employee’s shortcomings seriously affect the 

quality of government services provided to the public, the option to 

terminate employment must be a practical remedy. In today’s difficult economic environment, thousands of Americans are losing 

their jobs despite outstanding performance. We must ensure that 

Federal employees are held to similar standards. On both counts, 

the nominees will play a pivotal role, if confirmed. 

3 

I was going to look forward to hearing from both of you about 

your plans for leading this important agency, but I must return to 

the floor. But, I am interested in how you intend to respond to the 

demographic, statutory, and administrative changes that are expected to increase the Board’s caseload. You are going to have a lot 

more things to do. I am also curious to learn what tools the nominees feel would help reduce the time required to adjudicate appeals 

and improve the quality of decisions issued by the MSPB. Finally, 

I am interested in hearing about the plans to help inform Federal 

workforce policy through the Board’s ‘‘special studies’’ function. I 

think it is really important that people understand the tools and 

opportunities available to them and how the civil service system 

operates. 

So I commend you for willingness to step forward and to serve 

your country, and I want to thank the members of your family that 

are here today for the sacrifice that they have made over the years 

so that you both could get to where you are at and, quite frankly, 

for the sacrifice that will have to be made so that they can do the 

job that they have to do. So often we forget the contribution that 

spouses make to this whole operation, their willingness to have us 

work long hours. I think about Janet, my wife, she has something 

called the ‘‘Honey Do list.’’ Did you ever hear about the Honey Do 

list? I have not been as faithful to the Honey Do list as I should 

be. But that is part of the fact that I am kind of busy with what 

I am doing here, and I thank God that she is so understanding. 

So thank you very much, and, again, I apologize for having to go 

back to the floor. Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Senator Voinovich. 

I know his heart is here, but he will have to be on the Senate 

floor managing the bill. Thank you very much. 

Ms. Grundmann, I introduced your family. Are there any others 

that you want to introduce this morning? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. I do. Thank you very much. 

Joining me today is the staff from the National Federation of 

Federal Employees and friends from the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, along with some colleagues from the United 

Defense Workers Coalition. 

I also want to give special thanks to the staff of the MSPB, particularly the General Counsel’s Office, Chad Bungard, and Michael 

Carney, who is not here today; and my special shepherd through 

this process, Rosalyn Coates. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, welcome all of you. 

Now I would like to turn to Ms. Wagner. I met your husband, 

and I want to welcome Allynn here, and also your children, Katie, 

Nora, and Carlin. Do you have anyone else you wish to introduce 

to the Committee? 

Ms. WAGNER. Yes, thank you, Senator. I would like to recognize 

my cousin, Erin Clinard, who made the trek out from Waterford, 

Virginia, for this hearing. 

I would also like to acknowledge my colleagues at the Personnel 

Appeals Board who are attending the hearing today and other 

friends from AFGE. 

And I would also simply like to reiterate Ms. Grundmann’s recognition of the assistance that the MSPB General Counsel’s office 

4 

has provided me in preparation for this hearing. They have been 

terrific. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much, and let me again 

welcome all of you here and, coming from Hawaii, with much aloha 

to all of you. 

These positions are among the most important to Federal employees. Our dedicated Federal employees are among this country’s 

greatest assets. Civil servants must be able to serve their country 

without undue influence or fear of discrimination at the workplace. 

The MSPB was created to safeguard the merit system principles 

and to help ensure that Federal employees are free from discrimination and retaliation at the workplace. If confirmed, I expect these 

nominees to be strong advocates for the merit system and the Federal workforce. 

One of the most important responsibilities of the Board is to adjudicate claims brought by Federal employee whistleblowers. For 

almost a decade, I have worked to reform the process for protecting 

Federal whistleblowers. As the sponsor of the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act of 2009, I believe that one of the key tenets of the Federal merit systems is the ability of Federal employees to report waste, fraud, and abuse without fear of retaliation. 

For too long, Federal whistleblowers have not received the protection they need. Since the year 2000, the Board has repeatedly 

misapplied congressional intent with respect to whistleblower protection. I am hopeful that with new statutory protections—and additional Board members who understand the important role of 

whistleblower protections—Federal employees will feel confident 

again that they can report waste, fraud, abuse, or illegal activity 

without risking their professional and financial futures. 

I am very happy to conduct this hearing today. For many years, 

I should tell you, Senator Voinovich and I have worked together to 

improve all aspects of the Federal workforce. 

The nominees have filed responses to a biographical and financial questionnaire, answered pre-hearing questions submitted by 

the Committee, and had their financial statements reviewed by the 

Office of Government Ethics. Without objection, this information 

will be made a part of the hearing record, with the exception of the 

financial data. It is on file and available for public inspection at the 

Committee offices. 

Our Committee rules require that all witnesses at nomination 

hearings give their testimony under oath. Therefore, I ask the 

nominees to please stand and raise your right hands. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 

the Subcommittee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 

the truth, so help you, God? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. I do. 

Ms. WAGNER. I do. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Let it be noted for the record that 

the witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

Ms. Grundmann, would you please proceed with your statement? 

5 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Grundmann appears in the Appendix on page 16. 

TESTIMONY OF SUSAN TSUI GRUNDMANN 1 TO BE A MEMBER 

AND CHAIRMAN, MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chairman Akaka. 

I want to thank you for this opportunity to appear before you today 

as you consider my nomination to be a Member and the Chairman 

of the U.S. Merit Systems Protection Board. I am honored by the 

confidence that President Obama has placed in me by nominating 

me to this important position of public trust. I pledge that, if confirmed, I will discharge my responsibilities with integrity and in accordance with law, rule, and regulation. I also want to thank you 

for your consistent efforts to ensure that the American public is 

well served by a civil service system that operates effectively and 

efficiently. 

Mr. Chairman, for most of my practice, I have served as an advocate for Federal employees. During that time, I have also worked 

with Federal managers at all levels. I have worked in the private 

sector and with State courts. I have represented the interests of 

both management and line employees. I have become intimately familiar with the myriad of issues that give rise to workplace disputes. My cumulative experience has provided me with a wellgrounded perspective of how the merit systems process works to 

ensure fairness in the Federal workplace. 

To serve as a Member and Chairman of the Merit Systems Protection Board is the opportunity to once again return to the practice of law in a neutral capacity. At the beginning of my legal career, I clerked for the judges of the Nineteenth Judicial Circuit of 

Virginia, an experience that laid the foundation for my commitment to public service. 

As Congress explores avenues for improving certain aspects of 

the civil service system, the Board’s role as an independent and a 

neutral arbiter of fairness and adherence to merit principles remains vital to the effective and efficient operations of the Federal 

Government. In fiscal year 2009, the average case processing time 

for the initial decision was 83 days. The average case processing 

time on petitions for review to the full Board was 94 days. These 

statistics provide a solid basis for confidence in the MSPB appeals 

process. If confirmed, I will work to build upon the Board’s impressive record for timely and balanced adjudication of challenges to 

adverse personnel actions and other matters under its jurisdiction. 

It is crucial that both employees and managers perceive that 

they have equal access to the process and that the process provides 

them with a fair opportunity to present their respective positions. 

I am committed to ensure transparency of the process through a 

focus on issuing clear, understandable decisions that provide workable guidelines for the parties and the Board’s stakeholders. This 

objective is particularly important in a venue such as the MSPB 

where a large percentage of the appeals are filed by pro se appellants. If confirmed, I commit to these fundamental principles from 

the outset. 

The Board’s statutory studies function is also a significant part 

of the agency’s responsibility. Study reports issued by the MSPB 

are highly regarded by the Federal human resources management 

6 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Wagner appears in the Appendix on page 52. 

community and other stakeholders of the Board. If confirmed, I 

plan to work with my fellow Board members as well as the Office 

of Policy and Evaluation to continue this record of excellence. And, 

in particular, I pledge to you to report to the President and the 

Congress as to whether the public interest in a civil service free of 

prohibited personnel practices is being adequately protected. 

Thank you for allowing me to give my statement, and I look forward to any questions you have to offer. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Ms. Grundmann, and 

thank you for your commitment. We certainly look forward to 

working with you. 

Ms. Wagner, will you please proceed with your statement? 

TESTIMONY OF ANNE MARIE WAGNER 1 TO BE A MEMBER, 

MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD 

Ms. WAGNER. Good afternoon, Chairman Akaka. I, too, would 

like to thank you for this opportunity to appear before you today. 

I would also like to express my appreciation to my family, friends, 

and colleagues for their support and encouragement throughout 

this process. 

I was and continue to be honored by President Obama’s nomination of me to serve as a member of the Merit Systems Protection 

Board, and it is a privilege to appear before you today seeking Senate confirmation of my nomination. I wholeheartedly support the 

MSPB’s statutory mission to protect Federal merit systems and the 

rights of individuals within those systems; and, if confirmed, I will 

commit myself fully to carrying out that mission. 

In 1978, when Congress enacted the Civil Service Reform Act, it 

did so to establish a comprehensive system governing Federal employment. It created the MSPB to have a central role as the impartial adjudicator of claims arising from personnel actions. In carrying out that duty, the Board must examine personnel actions to 

determine if they are consistent with law and merit principles and 

to provide meaningful redress when violations occur. 

In my 20 years of practicing Federal employment law, I have 

been particularly mindful of the continued importance that the 

MSPB plays today to the communities that it serves as well as to 

the American public. Much has changed in the 30 years since the 

MSPB’s inception, but the need to ensure that the Federal workplace operates fairly and effectively has not. Congress entrusted 

the MSPB with that job, and I am both humbled and excited at the 

prospect of playing a part in carrying out the Board’s mission. 

If confirmed, I look forward to working closely with Susan 

Grundmann, whose nomination as Chairman of MSPB I fully support, and Board Member Mary Rose, to meet the challenges facing 

the MSPB now and in the future. 

I thank you again for this opportunity to appear before you and 

would be happy to answer whatever questions you have. Thank 

you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Ms. Wagner. 

I will begin with the standard questions this Committee asks of 

all nominees. First, is there anything you are aware of in your 

7 

background that might present a conflict of interest with the duties 

of the office to which you have been nominated? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. I realize that the Board members must not 

only uphold but promote independence, integrity, and impartiality, 

and in preparation for the confirmations process, I have consulted 

with the Office of Government Ethics (OGE) and the designated 

ethics official at MSPB. No conflicts were found. Any future conflicts will be resolved consistent with the agreement that I have 

signed with the MSPB. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Ms. WAGNER. Mr. Chairman, there are no conflicts in my background that would prevent me from carrying out the duties of a 

member of the MSPB. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Second, do you know of anything, 

personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from 

fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. I intend to fully discharge my responsibilities 

with integrity and in accordance with the law. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you, Ms. Grundmann. Ms. Wagner. 

Ms. WAGNER. Mr. Chairman, there is nothing in my background 

that would impede my ability to carry out my duties as a member 

with integrity and effectiveness. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Third, do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify 

before any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. I agree without reservation. 

Ms. WAGNER. I agree. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much for your responses, 

and I will begin with the questions. 

As the sponsor of S. 372, the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act of 2009, I believe that Federal employees provide a valuable service to our country when they expose waste, fraud, and 

abuse in the government. What is your view of the role whistleblowers play in strengthening the merit system and improving the 

effectiveness of the Federal Government? 

Ms. Grundmann, we will begin with you. 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The role that Federal employees play is absolutely vital in the 

sense of exposing fraud, waste, abuse, dangers to health and safety, 

from a position that is closest to the source. They are in essence 

the guardians of good government. They lead and they in turn 

should be provided protection against reprisal for such disclosures. 

I wholly support that principle. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Ms. Wagner. 

Ms. WAGNER. Mr. Chairman, I believe that whistleblowers perform an essential function to ensure the accountability of the Federal Government to the citizens of this country, and as Ms. 

Grundmann has stated, I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that 

whistleblowers must be protected from retaliation for exposing 

waste, fraud, and abuse. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Ms. Wagner, in your answers to the 

Committee’s pre-hearing questions, you state that you expect a rise 

8 

in the number of claims filed with the Board under the Uniformed 

Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act and the Veterans Employment Opportunity Act. As the Chairman of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee, I am strongly committed to promoting the employment of veterans. What will you do to familiarize 

yourself with these laws and ensure that veterans’ rights are protected in the Federal workforce? 

Ms. WAGNER. Mr. Chairman, I have a long history in my career 

of dealing with claims that arise within various statutory contexts, 

both complex statutory systems and otherwise. I am quite familiar 

with the approaches to statutory construction that are required 

when you are dealing with statutory claims such as claims arising 

under the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment 

Rights Act (USERRA) and the Veterans Employment Opportunity 

Act (VEOA). I would do everything that is necessary to come to a 

full understanding of the elements of causes of action and claims 

that arise under each of those statutes. I would engage in extensive 

research and analysis with regard to those claims. 

In answering that question, I was anticipating that because of 

the current increase in military deployments, there was a potential 

for an increase in such claims. I cannot predict for certain that it 

is what will occur, but if it does occur, I believe that the MSPB will 

be ready to handle any increased workload, according veterans the 

full rights that they are provided under each of those statutes. 

Senator AKAKA. As you know, in 2002 the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) was given the authority to establish a new 

human resources system. A new appeals system was supposed to 

address concerns over timeliness, but DHS regulations implementing the process were controversial and raised concerns from 

both employee groups and Members of Congress regarding fairness. 

Last year, MSPB issued regulations to implement the system, 

but later rescinded them in light of Congress’ decision to deny 

funding for their implementation. 

What are your thoughts regarding the timeliness of adjudications 

before the MSPB and the regulations issued for the DHS appeals 

system? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My understanding 

with respect to the timeliness of decisions, as I indicated in my 

opening statement, is that not only initial decisions but petitions 

for review are moving at a very rapid pace. The regulations that 

DHS proposed, along with MSPB’s subsequent follow-up, expedited 

the system—not to the point that it is unmanageable, but certainly 

those time frames can be met. 

In the event that the DHS regulations are implemented, the 

Board will be ready, the administrative judges will be ready to 

process those cases in the fashion as designated by statute and regulation. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Ms. Wagner. 

Ms. WAGNER. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the Board has over 

the last couple of years demonstrated an increased efficiency with 

regard to decisionmaking, both at the regional level as well as at 

the Board level, and I would hope, if confirmed, we would continue 

on that road of improving the efficiency of the decisionmaking process at both the evidentiary phase as well as the appellate process. 

9 

With the current status of the DHS personnel systems and DOD 

personnel systems certainly—not so much in flux, but in light of recent statutory enactment—it does not appear that the regulations 

that the MSPB has issued concerning those systems would necessarily be implemented in any context. However, I believe that the 

Board will continue to look at ways to improve its processes for all 

Federal employees across the board. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Grundmann, I was pleased that in your answers to the Committee’s pre-hearing questions, you stated that, if 

confirmed, you will focus on recruiting a new generation of employees to work at the Board. Recent college graduates and young professionals may not be aware of the Board as a potential employer. 

Would you please elaborate on your plans to improve your recruitment? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. Absolutely. When I began my career, Federal 

service, public service, was something that I aspired to, we all aspired to. Agencies periodically recruited at law schools, not only to 

educate future lawyers on their respective missions, but to offer 

them another means of using their legal talent. 

I see no reason why that same recruitment effort cannot begin 

again, beginning within law schools and certainly in colleges. It is 

the unique opportunity to make an impact in a neutral capacity 

and to protect the Federal merit principles in government. 

Senator AKAKA. As you know, one of the Board’s responsibilities 

is to conduct studies relating to the civil service and report to the 

President and the Congress. What issues should the Board focus on 

in future studies? Ms. Grundmann. 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I indicate in my 

policy answers, I understand that OPM is embarking on a draft 

strategic plan. If confirmed, I would look for a definite Board role 

with my fellow Board members to be part of this new strategic plan 

for the Federal workforce. 

In addition, we know that there are currently four generations 

in the Federal workforce. The impact of technology is tremendous 

on all four generations. If confirmed, I would look to study the impact of that technology, the accelerated implementation of that 

technology, as well as what happens to employees who cannot 

adapt to that technology. 

And, finally, as I mentioned in my opening statement, there is 

a need and a statutory responsibility to report to the President and 

the Congress with regard to whether prohibited personnel actions 

are being used and the public interest is being served by protecting 

employees from prohibited personnel actions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Ms. Wagner. 

Ms. WAGNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The MSPB, of course, 

has a division that is devoted to this aspect of the Board’s mission, 

and I am sure that they have a system of identifying issues that 

are of importance to the various communities within the Federal 

workforce. 

That said, I believe that there are a number of issues that I 

would be interested in seeing examined. One would be something 

that you alluded to, which is this ongoing need to develop new recruitment and retention initiatives, especially in light of the changVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:27 Jun 01, 2010 Jkt 041456 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\53849.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
10 

ing approach to the workforce that studies have demonstrated that 

newer employees bring to the work experience. 

I would look also at the impact of Federal retirement on institutional knowledge within agencies and the impact that the increase 

in Federal retirement will have on the Federal workforce and the 

mission of the agencies. 

And, finally, I would potentially look at the linkage between performance appraisal systems and pay-for-performance systems to 

see the extent to which changes in performance appraisal systems 

are needed in order to engender trust in any potential pay-for-performance system that the Federal Government would undertake. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Grundmann, as you know, the chairman of 

MSPB serves as the chief executive and administrative officer of 

the Board. What is your understanding of this role? And how do 

you feel that your experiences as General Counsel of the National 

Federation of Federal Employees will help you fulfill that role? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a good question. 

The statute mandates that the chairman of MSPB serve not only 

as the CEO but the administrative officer on behalf of the agency 

and tasks the chairman with certain statutory responsibilities, 

such as supervising staff, distributing work, appointing people, and 

vesting within the chairman the sole ability to initiate litigation. 

In my experience at both NFFE and NATCA, I served on the 

management team. People often forget that although unions represent Federal employees, they are themselves employers. And in 

that role, I had the unique experience of representing management 

of the employees of the union, and I hope that experience, if confirmed, will enhance my ability to lead the MSPB. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Wagner, I would like to hear from you as 

well. What is your understanding of your role as Vice Chairman? 

And how do you believe your experience as a member of the GAO 

Personnel Appeals Board will assist you in serving as Vice Chairman? 

Ms. WAGNER. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the role of vice chairman is one that is set out under the statute, and very clearly so, 

and the role is to assume the duties of the chairman in the absence 

of the chairman. Those additional duties that the chairman has 

under the statute, as Ms. Grundmann has alluded to, involve the 

administrative and executive functions of the agency, so that if 

there is ever a situation where Ms. Grundmann is not in a situation to be able to carry out her duties as chairman, the vice chairman would be, under law, obligated to step up to do that. 

Should that occur, I believe that my experience as a General 

Counsel in the Personnel Appeals Board will stand me in good 

stead in that there is a lot of management of resources, assessment 

of allocation of resources that is involved in carrying out my duties 

as General Counsel. And I believe that it is a sensitivity to those 

types of issues that would be particularly helpful in carrying out 

the executive functions at the MSPB, should that occur. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Grundmann, as the sponsor of S. 674, the 

Federal Supervisor Training Act of 2009, I believe investing in better training for supervisors could help prevent many workplace disputes. I was pleased to see in your answers to the Committee’s preVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:27 Jun 01, 2010 Jkt 041456 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\53849.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
11 

hearing questions that you support training supervisors on the importance of following agency procedures when taking personnel actions against employees. 

How can the Board promote improved training for Federal managers on merit systems principles and the Board’s appeals process? 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. The MSPB is a vast storehouse of experiences 

on good management and bad management, good employees as well 

as bad employees. In my experience, I have seen that sometimes 

personnel actions will be taken for the right reasons, but agency 

procedures, collective bargaining agreement procedures, may have 

been violated, which in turn compels the employee and/or his or 

her advocate to react. In training supervisors on following the procedures and taking personnel actions for the proper reasons, I believe that is a good step toward the understanding of management. 

I understand your question to be one of outreach by the Board 

to managers, perhaps even lessons learned. Everybody loves topten lists. I do not see any reason why we cannot develop a list of 

experiences that are commonly seen as common mistakes for why 

personnel actions are overturned. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. This will be my final question, and 

it is addressed to both of you on the panel. We have discussed the 

many important issues the Board faces. If confirmed, what will be 

your long-term priorities while a Board member? Ms. Grundmann. 

Ms. GRUNDMANN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like many of the 

Federal agencies, the Board faces the same issues: Recruiting and 

retaining highly trained and qualified employees to carry on the 

Board’s mission into the next generation. We have already talked 

about a number of ways to conduct outreach to the next generation, 

to enhance the Board’s effectiveness and to bring new ideas to 

light. 

These challenges, I think, are in terms of outreach and education. If confirmed, I would like to take an active role with my fellow Board members and determine what is the next step, where is 

the next phase, what is the next chapter for the MSPB. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Wagner. 

Ms. WAGNER. My long-term priority, if confirmed as a member 

of the MSPB, would be to engender trust in the MSPB by all the 

stakeholders—employees and managers alike—in carrying out the 

adjudicating function of the agency, that they can trust that this 

process will be fair and an effective one. And along with the other 

managerial long-term priorities that Ms. Grundmann has already 

alluded to, I believe that this would be my top priority. 

Senator AKAKA. I want to thank both of you for your responses. 

This will be helpful to the Committee for what we are trying to do 

to help the Federal employees of our country. 

At this time there are no further questions for Ms. Grundmann 

or Ms. Wagner. There may be, however, additional questions for 

the record, which will be submitted to you in writing from Members who are not present. 

The hearing record will remain open until the close of business 

tomorrow for Members of this Committee to submit additional 

statements or questions. 

Again, I want to say thank you very much to Ms. Grundmann 

and Ms. Wagner, your families, and your supporters who are here, 

12 

too, and others for attending. I am pleased to be able to hold a 

hearing for such well-qualified nominees. It is my hope that the 

Committee will vote soon on your nominations and that your nominations will be considered by the full Senate very shortly. 

Thank you very much. This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:15 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

(13) 

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