Lopez v. City of Chicago, et at. 

Case No. 2012 CV 5751 

EXHIBITB 

Case: 1:12-cv-05751 Document #: 164-2 Filed: 01/21/17 Page 1 of 6 PageID #:3554
[J COpy 

In The Matter Of: 

Jose Lopez v. 

Stevan Vidljinovic 

Phillip P. Hayden, Ed.D. 

May 18,2015 

Commonwealth Court Reporters, Inc. 

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Case: 1:12-cv-05751 Document #: 164-2 Filed: 01/21/17 Page 2 of 6 PageID #:3555
Jose Lopez v. 

Stevan Vidljinovic 

Phillip P. Hayden; Ed.D. 

~- -_._--- May 18,2015 

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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S ! 

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I 3 

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS 

EASTERN DIVISION 

4 JOSE LOPEZ, by his wife 

and next best friend, 5 Sandra Cardiel, 

1· 

2 

3 

WITNESS: 

4 EXAMINATION BY: 

5 

PHILIP P. IIAYDEN, Ed.D. 

.0··1 

6 Plaintiff, 

7 vs. 

8 STEVAN VIDLJINOVIC, 9 Star No. 4051, et al., 

10 Defenda!'lts. 

11 

12 Deposition of: 

No. 12 C 5751 

Jl.ldge Bla.key 

Fredericksburg, VA 

May 18, 2015 

13 PHILIP P.IIAYDEN, Ed,I>. 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 No. 

No. 

11 No. 

No. 12 No. 

13 No. 

14 called for exaRiiniition bycounsei for the Def.endante, 14 

15 pursuant to. notioe, at the of'fioes of Ahe-rn Phillips, .15 

16 LLP, 904 PrinoElsa Anne street, Suite 305, 16 

17 Fredericksburg, Virginia, cOJlUllenoingat 10:46 ".m., 17 

18 before Deanna A. Arend, RegistElred t>rofessional 18 

19 Reporter, NotaryPub.lid in "nd for the COllUllonwealth 19 

20 of Virginia. 20 

Mr. Polick 

Mr. DeRose 

Mr. Polick 

E-X..,H-I-B-I-T-S 

4 185 

195 

1 - Currioulum Vitae ......•...........••.... 4 

2 -Testimony & Depo List •......••.......... 4 

3 - Hayden Report •........•.•...•......•..•. 4 4 - Notice of' D.eposition •.................•. 7 

5 - Attaohment#3 ............•............ 101 

6 - Attachment #4 •.•.•......•........•.... 101 

I-~~ •.~--------------,-.---.. -~-.:.----t-~-~----------------~-------~. 

1 APPEARANCES: 

:2 For 

S 

4 

S 

G 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

FRANCO If. CAR9m:, Ii!$QUlRE C!lr.onG loa" olt'iOGS . . . lS59N. Mannnoi\i!Road Suite 2A 

Stone Park). Illinoi&60165 

(708) 856~8,,11 . oar6nelawoffioGs@gmai~.com 

13 For the Defendants: 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

JOSEPH M. POLICKE.SQUlRE CIU.ofAsllIisU.nt Corporation Counsel 

30 N. LASalle Stroot.. . Suite 900 

Chicago t Illinois 60602 . (312)744-83;35 

Page 2 

. ::.22=--__ . ______ . __ .. _________ . ___ _ 

1 P~R..;O-C.;E-E .. D-r-N-G .. s 

2 Thereupc>n,. 

3. PHILIPP. HAYDEN, Ed.D. 

I 

Page 4 

4 was called as a witness and·afte!' havillg been first 

5 duly sworn, was deposed and testified as folJows; 

6' EXAMINATION'BY COUNSEL FORDEFENPANTS ! 

7 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibits 1 through 3 

a were marked prior tothe startofthe deposition.) 

9BY MR. PO LICK: . 

10 Q Sir, could you state your f)ame and speU it ! 

11 for the court reporter, please? 

12 A My name isPhUip P.Hayden; And that's 

13 one "L." P-h-i-I~i-p. Last name Hayden, 

14 H-a-y-d-e-n. 

15 Q And how do you like to be addressed? Is it 

16 Doctor? Mister? 

17 A Dr. Hayden is fine. 

18 Q Okay. Let the record reflectthat this is 

19 the deposition of Dr. Philip P. Hayden. It's being 

20 taken pursuant to agreement and notice and the i 

21 applicable Federal Rules OfC. i~i1 ~rocedu~~ a.nd IOC~1 ' 

22 Court rules of the Northern District of IIlmols . - ......• -

. l 

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Case: 1:12-cv-05751 Document #: 164-2 Filed: 01/21/17 Page 3 of 6 PageID #:3556
Jose Lopez v. Phillip P. Hayden, Ed.D. 

Stevan Vidljinovic May 18,2015 r------ Page 1iT--··--·---- ----------------------·~~i;;-191 

1 wrong. And it was more at getting them involved in 1 paramedic? I 

2 the whole educational process. 2 A I have not. I 

3 Q Is your dissertation published? 3 Q And in your consulting business where you I, 

4 A No, it is not. 4 consult with lawyers in litigation, do you hold , 

5 Q Is it listed anywhere in your Curriculum 5 yourself out as having any expertise in EMT or first I 

6 Vitae?· 6 responder training? I' 

7 A No, it is not. 7 A I do not. ! 

8 Q Okay. When did you write your 8 Q Are you a lawyer? i 

9 dissertation? 9 A I am not. I 

10 A Finished it up in '97. S6 it took me three 10 Q Do you have any legal training? i 

11 years to do all of the research on that. So it was 11 A I have taken legal courses thro~gh the I 

12 '95, '6 and '7 that I was working on it. 12 college, but that was it. Or law courses. ,I.! 

13 Q So your Doctorate is in education with a 13 Q Okay. And so you're not a lawyer. Any 

14 specialty in adult education? 14 paralegal training? 

15 A That's correct. i5 A Ido not have paralegal training. 

16 Q All right. You're not a medical doctor, 16 Q Are you a psychiatrist or psychologist? 

17 correct? 17 A I am·not. 

18 A I am not. 18 Q Are you a mental health professional? 

19 Q Do you have any medical training besides ,'19 A I am not. 

20 maybe basic first-aid? 20 Q Do you hold yourself out as having any 

21 A I went through an EMT course back in 1978, 21 expertise as a mental health professional? 

22 I believe it was. I was a first responder EMT. I 22 A I do not. 

Page 18 Page 20 I 

1 never was certified as an EMT. But it was the same 1 Q Are you trained as a forensic scientist? 

2 training as the first responder course.. 2 A I am not. 

. 3 Q Where did you get that training? 3 Q Do you hold yourselfout as having any 

4 A Suffolk County Police Departmel1t in New 4 expertise in forensic science? 

5 York. 5 A I do not. 

6 Q And you said that was in 1978? 6 Q Are you professionally licensed in any 

7 A I think it was around 1978; I'm not 7 field? .. I 

8 positive of the date, but it was right around that 8 A I am not. I 

9 time. 9 Q All right. Going back to your CV under '.!I 

10 Q And you were never certified as a first 10 your professional experience, the firsrbullet point 

11 responder EMT? 11 you have listed there you say you were certified by I 

12 A I was recertified as a first responder but 12 the Force Science Institute in 2014. Can you tell me 

13 not an EMT. 13 what type of certification that is? 

14 Q Okay. 14 A The certification deals with fairly much 

15 A I didn't want to go that route. 15 use of force situations. And I'm on the Board of the 

16 Q All right. So just for clarification, you 16 Force Science Institute, and I went to this training 

17 were certified as a first responder? Am I 17 just to see jf anything had changed over the years. 

,lB 

19 

20 

understanding you correctly? 18 And it deals with how officers react in situations in 

A That's correct. 19 high risk situations, and then when they do react, is I 

Q But never certified as an EMT? 20 their reaction normal, abnonnaJ? Are there things 

21 A That's correct. 21 that happen, any situation that the general public i 

1-2_2_----'Q"--_H_av_e~y"_(o_u~ev_e__'r_b_e_e_n_c_e_rt_ifi_l_ed_as_an_E_M_'_r_---l 22 mightlook at .as being not nonnal and yet it's a I 

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(5) Pages 17 - 20 

Case: 1:12-cv-05751 Document #: 164-2 Filed: 01/21/17 Page 4 of 6 PageID #:3557
Jose Lopez v. 

Stevan Vidljinovic 

Phillip P. Hayden, Ed.D. 

May 18,2015 

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1 Q All right. Dr. Hayden, you understand that 1 A Throughout the country there are a lot of 

2 you're still under oath? 2 departments beginning to use mental health 

3 A Yes, I do. 3 professionals. They are people that might be 

4 Q Okay. I'm continuing on at Page 6 of your 4 psychologists or psychiatrists. They could be just 

5 report here, and I'm in the second full paragraph on 5 people that are trained in dealing with people with 

6 Page 6. You start that paragraph off by saying, It 6 problems and as counselor types that would come out 

7 appears that either the Chicago Police Department 7 and assist a police department when they have 

8 failed to properly train its force regarding the use 8 somebody that definitely has a mental problem and 

9 ofTasers, or the officers involved in the incident 9 isn't listening, is acting strange. And they will I 

10 ignored their training. 10 bring them out to work with them. And it's been I 

11 Do you see that? 1i fairly successful in the cases that I've seen around 

12 A Yes, I do. 12 the country. 

13 Q Are you giving any opinion whatsoever in 13 Q Do all major metropolitan police 

14 this case as to whether the Chicago Police Department 14 departments across the country have this sort of 

15 failed to properly train its force regarding the use 15 mental health professional that you're referring to 

16 ofTasers? 16 here? 

17 A What I'm saying here is one of the two 17 A I can't answer that question. I do not I 

18 here. They didn't train them, or the individuals out 18 know. I 

19 there in the field are ignoring the training. 19 Q When you are making that statement here ; 

20 Q You don't know one way or the other what 20 that mental health professionals should have been I 

21 may have caused the officers to react the way they 21 called in to deal with Mr. Lopez, are you making that I 

22 do? 22 opinion with regard to the officers' actions, or are 1 . -------; 

Page 162 

1 A I do hOt know. 1 

2 Q So it could be one Of the other? Is that 2 

3 what you're saying here in this case? 3 

4 A It could be one or the other or both. I 4 

5 don't know. S 

6 Q But are you making any specific opinion in 6 

7 this case that the Chicago Police Department has 7 

8 failed to train its officers regarding the use of 8 

9 Tasers? 9 

10 A From the training material I saw, it looks 10 

11 like the material is there to train the police 11 

12 officers properly. 12 

13 Q Okay. You say at the end of that paragraph 13 

14 that mental health professionals should have been 14 

15 called in to deal with Mr. Lopez and try to calm him 15 

16 down so that he could be transported to a mental 16 

17 health facility or released. Do you see that? 17 

18 A Yes, I do. ,18 

19 Q My first question with regard to that 19 

2.0 sentence is: Who are the mental health professionals 20 

21 that should have been called in to deal with 21 

22 Mr. Lopez? . - 22 

Page 164 

you making some sort of opinion with regard to the 

Chicago Police Department? . 

A Well, with tbe Chicago Police Department or 

the officers, officers are not trained many times in 

dealing with people with mental problems. So when 

you're not trained on how to deal with people with 

mental problems, you can exasperate a situation. You 

can make it worse. So if you're not trained 

properly, you really need to have somebody there that 

is trained properly. So if you can't train the 

department officers, you need to train somebody to 

come out and help. 

Q So are you rendering an opinion here about 

the city's policies with respect to having a mental 

health professional available for this type of 

situation? 

A I don't know on their protocol within the 

city if they have any mental health professionals on 

staff or if they have any contracted mental health 

professionals. I don't know what the City of Chicago 

has in that effect. 

Q So you're unable to otfer any opinion with 

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Jose Lopez v. Stevan Vidljinovic -- Page 165 

1 respect to the city then, correct? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q Based on your review ofthe facts of this 

4 case, how long should the officers have waited before 

5 they cal1ed in these mental health professionals that 

6 you're referring to? 

7 A As soon as they realize that they can't 

8 deal with them, and as you had the police officers 

9 that arrived on the scene first, they tried to deal 

10 with him, and they couldn't deal with him. And if 

11 you have been out in the field long enough, you can 

12 pretty much make that call pretty quick if you can 

13 deal with a person or not. 

14 If you can't deal with them, then it's time 

15 for you to get a professional there that can deal 

16 with them. Just like if you havemedical-- a 

17 medical problem, you have to get medical people there 

18 to deal with them. 

19 Q Before forming your opinions in this case, 

20 did you know what the degree of training was for 

21 Chicago fire Department paramedics with regard to 

22 patients they enCO.unter who have mental health 

Page 166 

1 issues? 

2 A The only thing that I understand is that if 

.3 they feel like th~y can't handle the individual, that 

4 they wO.uld call the police. 

5 Q Okay. Are you aware of any other training 

6 that Chicago Fire Department paramedics get with 

7 regard to' dealing with people who have mental health 

8 issues; other than what you've just stated? 

9 A I don't know of any other training they 

10. get. 

11 Q Hypothetically, let's say, based on your 

12 Qpinion, mental health professionals were called to 

13 the scene and Mr. LO.pez does the same thing that he 

14 was doing while the officers and paramedics were O.n 

15 scene, what happens then? 

16 MR. DeROSE: What do yQU mean -- objection 

17 to' the fonn of the question. What do you mean does 

18 the same thing? What things are you saying in that 

19 hypothetical he was doing? 

20. MR. POLICK: Well, let me rephrase if it 

21 wasn't clear to' you, John. My questiQn is: I'm 

22 taking Dr. Hayden's opinion that mental healt~ _. 

Phillip P. Hayden, Ed.D. 

May 18, 2015 

----"_. 

Page 167 

1 pl'Ofessionals should have been called. And my 

2 hypothetical is what if the mental health 

3 professionals appear on the scene and Mr. Lopez does 

4 the same thing he's been doing when the paramedics 

5 and police officers were there, what do -- what are 

6 the obligations of anyone on the scene if Mr. Lopez 

7 continues to act the way he's been acting, and we now 

8 have mental health professionals on the scene? 

9 MR. DeROSE: My only problem with your 

10 hypothetical is al1 I understand he was doing is 

11 walking around. Waving his arms and walking around, 

12 walking away from people. 

13 MR.POLICK: Well, tha.t's your 

14 understanding. I want Dr. Hayden to answer my 

15 question. 

16 MR. DeROSE: Well, before you say that, I'd 

17 I ike to know what his understanding of what the man 

18 was doing even before the -- anybody gets involved. 

19 MR. POLICK: Well, he's got that al1 in his 

20 report, and you can read it just the same as me. 

21 BY MR. POLICK: 

22 Q But my question is: Taking Dr. Hayden's 

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Page 1681 I 

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1 opinion that mental health professiO.nals should have I 

2 been called to the scene, what should be done, by the 

3 pO.lice officers ifthe mental health.professionals 

4 get to the scene and attempt to' interact -with 

5 Mr. Lopez, and Mr; Lopez continues to' do the same 

6 thing that he was doing? Swinging his arms, not 

7 cooperating, walking back and forth. What should the 

8 officers do then? Do. you understand my question, 

9 Doctor? 

10 A Yes, I do. 

11 Q Okay. Please answer that question. 

12 A I like your hypothetical, because it kind 

13 of lays out the whole prO.blem. If you bring a mental 

14 health professional and he is watching the same 

15 behavior, Mr. Lopez walking around, he's clenching 

16 his fists, he's walking away from peQple. You can 

17 see he's irritated, and he cannQt do. anything with 

18 him, then the police have to decide what's the next 

19 action? Do we let him go? We just walk away? Or do 

20 We have to take him into custody fQr his Qwn health 

21 or for somebQdy else's health, whatever it might be. 

22 Do. we have to do something? 

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