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50–410 2010

S. HRG. 110–1008 

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN U.S. FINANCIAL MARKETS AND REGULATORY RESPONSES TO THEM 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

ON 

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN U.S. FINANCIAL MARKETS AND 

REGULATORY RESPONSES TO THEM 

TUESDAY, JULY 15, 2008 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs 

( 

Available at: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/senate05sh.html 


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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS 

CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, Connecticut, Chairman 

TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota 

JACK REED, Rhode Island 

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York 

EVAN BAYH, Indiana 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

SHERROD BROWN, Ohio 

ROBERT P. CASEY, Pennsylvania 

JON TESTER, Montana 

RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

WAYNE ALLARD, Colorado 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

CHUCK HAGEL, Nebraska 

JIM BUNNING, Kentucky 

MIKE CRAPO, Idaho 

ELIZABETH DOLE, North Carolina 

MEL MARTINEZ, Florida 

BOB CORKER, Tennessee 

SHAWN MAHER, Staff Director 

WILLIAM D. DUHNKE, Republican Staff Director and Counsel 

AMY S. FRIEND, Chief Counsel 

MARK OSTERLE, Republican Counsel 

DAWN RATLIFF, Chief Clerk 

SHELVIN SIMMONS, IT Director 

JIM CROWELL, Editor 


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C O N T E N T S 

TUESDAY, JULY 15, 2008 

Page 

Opening statement of Chairman Dodd .................................................................. 1 

Opening statements, comments, or prepared statements of: 

Senator Shelby .................................................................................................. 3 

WITNESSES 

Henry M. Paulson, Jr., Secretary, Department of the Treasury ......................... 4 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 42 

Christopher Cox, Chairman, Securities and Exchange Commission ................... 6 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 44 

Response to written questions of: 

Senator Shelby ........................................................................................... 49 

Senator Testor ........................................................................................... 51 


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(1) 

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN U.S. FINANCIAL 

MARKETS AND REGULATORY RESPONSES 

TO THEM 

TUESDAY, JULY 15, 2008 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met at 12:23 p.m., in room SR–325, Russell Senate Office Building, Senator Christopher J. Dodd (Chairman of the 

Committee) presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CHRISTOPHER J. DODD 

Chairman DODD. The Committee will come to order. Let me once 

again thank Secretary Paulson and Chairman Cox for agreeing to 

come before the Committee in such an expeditious manner and 

way. As you know, for the last hour and a half or so, we have had 

a good hearing with the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. We 

thank Chairman Bernanke for his involvement, and I am deeply 

grateful to Senator Shelby and others for allowing us to have this 

hearing in an expedited fashion, waiving some of the rules that 

would otherwise be necessary. 

Let me just suggest a couple of things. One is, obviously, as we 

look at these proposals, Mr. Secretary, that have been raised over 

the weekend, I want to thank you and I want commend you for 

putting forth some ideas here and how we can deal with this 

present situation. And so I begin by suggesting that we are all trying to find some common ground and some common answers here 

that make sense, both in the near term and in the longer term, for 

economic stability and for restoring confidence and optimism in our 

country. 

Chairman Cox and I had a good chance to talk over the weekend 

as well, and some of the ideas have become the subject of public 

debate and discussion over the last 24 ours or so. 

It is also important—and I think all of you understand this—that 

as Members of this Committee, we have been charged with the responsibility of oversight and jurisdiction on these policy matters. 

And so it is important that we be probative as well of these issues 

as to how they would work, what the impact could be, what are the 

implications of what we are suggesting in these various ideas. And 

so as a part of this hearing, which is unprecedented in many ways 

because of the circumstances, I want the tone of it to reflect both 

a welcoming tone in light of the ideas that have been suggested, 

but also one that is probative, that we examine thoroughly these 


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ideas and what the implications are. Inaction is not an option, in 

my view. That may be an option for some. It is not for this Chairman. I do not believe we can do anything and just watch events 

unfold. I think we have a responsibility to respond. 

I think the notion of fresh capital is critically important and we 

need to act expeditiously, in my view, in how we do that. And so 

I begin the process by suggesting to you that we have a good discussion here over the next hour or so if we can, with my Members 

who are here, to engage in this debate and discussion. In a sense, 

I must say at the outset here that the plan, Mr. Secretary, that has 

been proposed is somewhat ironic in a way in that for much of the 

last year or so, those of us who have offered some ideas on how to 

prevent foreclosures have been labeled as ‘‘costly bailouts’’ for our 

ideas. And I know that is not the view of everyone, but certainly 

there were those who suggested that was the case. 

We have also gone through the period over the last year or so 

when this problem became most poignant of going from basically 

this will correct itself, it is not that big a deal—those were the comments almost a year ago—to the point where obviously we are talking about some unprecedented ideas and suggestions as to how we 

might move in all of this. 

Let me just identify, if I can, as part of the plan and idea that 

raised some questions. There are those who suggest that what we 

are looking for here or what the proposal would be amounts to a 

blank check to buy GSE debt and stock and that could spend an 

unlimited amount of public dollars to buy such debt and stock. The 

only limitation seems to be the duration of the plan, at least as 

some have raised. The purchases would be exempt from the debt 

ceiling, off budget, concerns about that. The Fed would be consulted. We have been talking around some questions to the Chairman of the role of the Fed in all of this. The bill that is pending 

now and resolution between the House and the Senate—and I am 

grateful, again, to those of you here who have been supportive of 

what we have tried to accomplish here—establishes a very strong 

regulator for the GSEs. 

There are those—I am included here—that would be concerned 

about, in a sense, substituting that very strong regulator—and I 

say this respectfully—to the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, 

given the authority that is being suggested over that strong regulator, making the regulator far weaker in many ways than I think 

what many of us would like to achieve and see. There are concerns 

about that as well. And then, of course, there is the proposal that 

is, as I said, basically dealing with the Fed and giving it that 

power, a strong role than would otherwise be necessary. 

So those are some of the concerns that have been raised. Obviously, this is an important moment, an unprecedented moment, as 

I said a moment ago, that we need to grapple with and deal with. 

And we are, again, deeply appreciative of your presence here to be 

probative, to be supportive of good ideas that will move us in the 

right direction. I think it is very important that we not contribute 

to the fear—unwarranted fear, I might add—that exists in too 

many places. This is a time for calm, for stability, for solid ideas 

that can get us back on the right track. 


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And with that, I thank you for your presence here. Let me turn 

to Senator Shelby. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR RICHARD C. SHELBY 

Senator SHELBY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to be brief, 

but I think this is a very, perhaps one of the most, important hearings we have had in the Banking Committee, and we have had others. 

We will now, as you mentioned, focus on a very important topic: 

preserving the viability of our Nation’s Government-sponsored enterprises. These entities must be financially strong if we are to 

work through the housing market correction. Their vitality is also 

crucial for the future of our capital markets and the economy as 

a whole. This Committee right here has worked for a number of 

years to strengthen the regulatory system governing Fannie Mae, 

Freddie Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Bank System. 

Some years ago, as Chairman of this Committee, I presided over 

a Banking hearing, a markup of GSE legislation that would have 

created a strong regulator with the authority to assess the risk 

posed by the enterprises to our financial system. At that meeting 

I noted that, should one of these institutions encounter significant 

financial difficulty, the consequences could be grave for the entire 

economy as well, perhaps, as the American taxpayer. 

Regretfully, that legislation was opposed by those who argued 

that a strong regulator would endanger the GSEs by undermining 

their financial fundamentals. Goodness. I hope it is now clear that 

quite the opposite is true. 

In recent days, market volatility, as everyone here knows, has affected both the debt and equity holdings for Fannie Mae and 

Freddie Mac. In response, various public officials have made statements regarding the financial conditions of the GSEs. In particular, 

an OFHEO statement noted that both Fannie Mae and Freddie 

Mac hold adequate capital in excess of the statutory minimums, 

which is probably true. The GSEs have large liquidity portfolios, 

access to the debt markets, and over $1.5 trillion in unpledged assets. Many would thereby conclude—and many have stated publicly 

-that each GSE is safe and sound. Goodness again. If the enterprises are operating in a safe and sound manner, it begs the question: What are we doing here today? Well, we all know why we are 

here. 

Over the years, the debate over GSE reform included a great 

deal of controversy regarding the topic of systemic risk raised by 

the Federal Reserve Chairman and others before him. In other 

words, could a GSE judged to be operating in a safe and sound 

manner pose a broader systemic risk? For some time, a lot of us 

have argued strongly that it could. I hope recent events have resolved the debate on this question. The GSEs, even when they are 

deemed safe and sound, can pose systemic risk. We would not be 

here today discussing taking unprecedented action to shore up 

their financial condition for the broader purpose of protecting the 

overall economy if that were not the case. 

The administration is now proposing—and we will hear in a few 

minutes from Secretary Paulson—additional statutory changes in 

response to developing market conditions. The proposal we will 


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hear about this morning should raise a number of serious questions 

for the Members of the Banking Committee and the U.S. Senate. 

If Congress intends to reaffirm Wall Street’s view that the American taxpayer stands behind the GSE’s debt, we will undoubtedly 

harden the so-called implicit guarantee. If that is the case, I think 

this Committee needs to fully understand why this step must be 

taken. What exactly would we be getting in taking an ownership 

stake, or something like it, in the GSEs? What rights would the 

Government possess as an owner or a guarantor? What impact 

would such actions have on the dollar and the broader economy, 

both now and in the future? 

Mr. Chairman, I hope that our hearing today provides the Committee with answers to some of these and other important questions. I hope we can take what we will learn today and make whatever changes to any legislation bill that we deem necessary. I fear 

that we are sitting on a financial powder keg. 

Thank you. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you very much, Senator Shelby. 

Again, let me turn to you, Secretary Paulson and Chairman Cox. 

We thank you both for being with us. Secretary Paulson. 

STATEMENT OF HENRY M. PAULSON, JR., SECRETARY, 

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 

Secretary PAULSON. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you very 

much, Chairman Dodd and Senator Shelby and Committee Members, for your leadership and for the opportunity to discuss these 

very important issues on short notice. 

As you know, our financial markets have been experiencing turmoil since last August. It will take additional time to work through 

these challenges, and progress has not come in a straight line. 

However, our financial institutions are repricing risk, deleveraging, 

recognizing losses, raising capital, and seeking to improve their financial positions. And policymakers and regulators are vigilant in 

their efforts to address the current challenges. 

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two of the Government-sponsored 

enterprises—the so-called GSEs—are also working through this 

challenging period. Fannie and Freddie play a central role in our 

housing finance system and must continue to do so in their current 

form as shareholder-owned companies. Their role in the housing 

market is particularly important as we work through the current 

housing correction. The GSEs now touch 70 percent of new mortgages and represent the only functioning secondary mortgage market. The GSEs are central to the availability of housing finance, 

which will determine the pace at which we emerge from this housing correction. 

In addition, debt and other securities issued by the GSEs are 

held by financial institutions around the world. Continued confidence in the GSEs is important to maintaining financial system 

and market stability. 

Market stability and support for housing finance are among my 

highest priorities—and they have been for some time—during this 

period of stress in our markets. Therefore, after consultations with 

the Federal Reserve, OFHEO, the SEC, and congressional leaders, 

we are asking Congress, as it completes its work on a stronger GSE 


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regulatory structure, to also enact a three-part plan to address the 

current situation. Our plan is aimed at supporting the stability of 

financial markets, not just these two enterprises. This is consistent 

with Treasury’s mission to promote the market stability, orderliness, and liquidity necessary to support our economy. 

Our proposal was not prompted by any sudden deterioration in 

conditions at Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. OFHEO has reaffirmed 

that both GSEs remain adequately capitalized. At the same time, 

recent developments convinced policymakers and the GSEs that 

steps are needed to respond to market concerns and increase confidence by providing assurances of access to liquidity and capital on 

a temporary basis if necessary. The plan we announced will 

strengthen our financial system as we weather this housing correction and establish a new world-class regulator for the GSEs. It has 

three parts. 

First, as a liquidity backstop, the plan includes an 18-month 

temporary increase in Treasury’s existing authority to make credit 

available for the GSEs. Given the difficulty in determining the appropriate size of the credit line, we are not proposing a particular 

dollar amount. Flexibility is the best means of increasing market 

confidence in the GSEs and also the best means of minimizing taxpayer risk. 

Second, to ensure the GSEs have access to sufficient capital to 

continue to fulfill their mission, the plan gives Treasury an 18- 

month temporary authority to purchase—only if necessary—equity 

in either of these two GSEs. Let me stress that there are no immediate plans to access either the proposed liquidity or the proposed 

capital backstop. If either of these authorities is used, it would be 

done so only at Treasury’s discretion, under terms and conditions 

that protect the U.S. taxpayer and are agreed to by both Treasury 

and the GSE. I have for some time urged a broad range of financial 

institutions to raise capital, and at Treasury we have constantly 

encouraged the GSEs to do just that. In March, at my request, both 

the Chairman and Ranking Member of this Committee hosted a 

meeting with me and the CEOs of the two GSEs where they agreed 

to raise capital, and you began the effort to move your GSE reform 

bill, which is now hopefully about to be enacted with the modifications we are recommending today. 

Third, to help protect the financial system from future systemic 

risk, the plan strengthens the GSE regulatory reform legislation 

currently moving through Congress by providing the Federal Reserve authority to access information and perform a consultative 

role in the new GSE regulator’s process for setting capital requirements and other prudential standards. 

Let me be clear. The Federal Reserve would not be the primary 

regulator. As I have said for some time, the Fed already plays the 

role of de facto market stability regulator, and we must give it the 

authorities to carry out that role. This role for the Federal Reserve 

with respect to the GSEs is consistent with the recommendation 

made in Treasury’s Blueprint for a Modernized Financial Regulatory Structure. Clearly, given the scope of the GSEs’ operations 

in world financial markets, a market stability regulator must have 

some line of sight into their operations. 


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We have long maintained that the GSEs have the potential to 

pose a systemic risk and worked with Congress on legislation to 

create a GSE regulator with authorities appropriate to the task 

and on a par with other financial regulators. We must complete 

this work. The Senate passed GSE reform legislation last Friday, 

and we urge the House to act quickly to advance this process. 

As I have said, we support the current shareholder-owned structure of these enterprises. Our plan addresses current market challenges by ensuring, on a temporary basis, access to both liquidity 

and capital, while also ensuring that the GSEs can fulfill their mission—a mission that remains critical to homeowners and homebuyers across the country, especially during this housing correction. 

I look forward to working closely with you, your colleagues in the 

House, and congressional leadership in both chambers to enact this 

plan as part of a complete legislative package as soon as possible. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary. 

Chairman Bernanke has already indicated he made his statement earlier and does not have a statement to make at this point. 

Is that correct, Mr. Chairman? 

Chairman Cox. 

STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER COX, CHAIRMAN, SECURITIES 

AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION 

Mr. COX. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Senator Shelby, 

and Members of the Committee, for this opportunity to describe the 

SEC’s actions to deal with the recent developments in our financial 

markets. 

Since the credit market crisis began with the deterioration of 

mortgage underwriting standards and a contagion of abusive lending practices, and then spread to the capital markets through 

securitization, the SEC has used its law enforcement and regulatory powers to contribute to orderly and liquid markets. We have 

acted in three main areas: the investigation and prosecution of violations of the securities laws; the regulation of problem areas in the 

markets, including credit rating agencies under recent authority 

granted to us by the Congress; and accounting and disclosure 

standards in order to bring hidden risk into the light. Our work in 

these areas has been both national and international. 

First and foremost, the SEC is a law enforcement agency. Our 

enforcement actions to address the capital markets turmoil have 

involved not only our Division of Enforcement and each of the 

agency’s 11 regional offices, but also nearly every major SEC division and office, and every area of professional emphasis, through 

our agency-wide Subprime Task Force. We are also working closely 

with other Federal and State regulators. 

The SEC has over four dozen pending law enforcement investigations in the subprime area. They are focused on the activities of 

subprime lenders, on the roles of credit rating agencies, insurers, 

investment banks, and others involved in the securitization process; and on the banks and broker-dealers who sold mortgagebacked investments to the public. 


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As one example of these initiatives, just a few weeks ago the 

Commission brought enforcement actions against two portfolio 

managers of Bear Stearns Asset Management, whose hedge funds 

collapsed in June of last year and caused investor losses of over 

$1.8 billion. These cases, and others like them in the subprime 

area, are making it clear that vigorous investor protection extends 

to hedge funds, which are by no means unregulated when it comes 

to fraud. 

The same vigorous commitment to investors extends to our jealous protection of the integrity of public disclosure. Because the reliability of information about public companies is so important to 

market confidence, there have long been clear rules that prohibit 

market manipulation by knowingly spreading false rumors. But for 

the entirety of its 74-year history until 2008, the Commission had 

never brought an enforcement action of this kind. It is probably because of the difficulty in tracing where a false rumor starts, and 

proving that it was knowingly false, that these cases haven’t been 

brought in the past. But now the same technology that instantly 

spreads rumors around the globe is also helping law enforcement 

track down the culprits. As a result, just a few weeks after the demise of Bear Stearns, we successfully sued a trader who used instant messages to other brokerage firms and hedge funds to spread 

fake information about a pending acquisition. The false rumors 

that he started caused the stock to drop by 17 percent and caused 

a wipeout of market capitalization of $1 billion in 30 minutes and 

led to a halt in trading in those securities on the New York Stock 

Exchange. 

Following our enforcement action, the Commission not only hit 

the trader with penalties and other sanctions, but also banned him 

for life from the industry. This was a landmark case, and it will 

not be unique. If we are successful in bringing future cases like 

this, I believe the penalties should be commensurate with the enormous amount of shareholder value that is destroyed by this kind 

of wantonness toward other people’s money. 

For several months, we have had other active investigations underway concerning the possible manipulation of securities prices 

through various combinations of manufacturing false rumors and 

short selling. In addition, the Commission has joined with other securities regulators in undertaking industry-wide sweep examinations that will include hedge fund advisors, aimed at preventing 

the spread of intentionally false rumors to manipulate securities 

prices. 

In addition to enforcing our existing regulations, the Commission 

is also using our authority to promulgate new rules. Today, the 

Commission will issue an order designed to enhance protections 

against ‘‘naked’’ short selling in the securities of primary dealers, 

Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac. The emergency order will provide 

that all short sales in the securities of primary dealers, Fannie, 

and Freddie will be subject to a pre-borrow requirement. In addition to this emergency measure, we will undertake a rulemaking 

to address these same issues across the entire market. 

We are also using our new authority under the Credit Rating 

Agency Reform Act to write sweeping new regulations that will 

apply to the rating of structured investments. Until the passage of 


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this landmark legislation, the credit rating industry has been 

largely unregulated. Now, in the 10 months since the first firms became registered under the new law, they are subject to thorough 

and ongoing regulation of everything from their public disclosures, 

to their management of conflicts of interest, to their ability to prevent unfair, abusive, or coercive behavior in the ratings process. 

The new law also gave us the authority to examine these firms, 

and we are using it aggressively. As you know, we recently provided to the Committee a complete report of our staff’s findings in 

these examinations. 

The subprime crisis was also deepened by problems with disclosure and accounting, and so in recent months, we have has asked 

financial institutions to provide additional disclosure regarding 

both off-balance-sheet arrangements and the application of fair 

value to financial instruments. 

Last Wednesday, the Commission held a roundtable to hear from 

market participants and regulators about the challenges of current 

fair value accounting and auditing requirements, which will provide the basis for potential new guidance from the SEC, the FASB, 

and the PCAOB. 

Since the events of mid-March that culminated in the Bear 

Stearns acquisition, the SEC has broadly engaged with other regulators on issues related to capital and liquidity. We have broadly 

strengthened liquidity requirements, and we are closely scrutinizing the secured funding activities of each CSE firm. Working together with the Federal Reserve, we have developed additional 

stress scenarios in light of the Bear experience. These scenarios entail a substantial loss of secured funding and assume no access to 

the Fed’s liquidity facilities. Our recently concluded Memorandum 

of Understanding with the Federal Reserve Board is facilitating 

this cooperation as well as our joint work in a number of other important areas. 

Finally, I note that the subprime crisis has affected markets not 

only here in the United States but all over the world, and so we 

have been working closely with our international regulatory counterparts to ensure that our solutions to these problems work across 

national borders and in other markets. 

Thank you, again, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to discuss 

these important issues, and I will be happy to take your questions. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and we 

appreciate your presence again here today. 

I will put 6 minutes on the clock here, and we will move along. 

Because everyone has shown up here, we will move in a normal seniority system here, as everyone has been for the last 2 or 3 hours. 

Let me address, if I can, the very points, Mr. Secretary, that you 

have raised. Again, this is our responsibility here to be probative 

and examine these ideas, particularly if we are going to try and act 

in some expeditious fashion here. Normally, there would be a period of time to really go over these issues in far greater detail, but 

the sense of urgency is something I think all of us, or at least most 

of us here appreciate. 

Let me begin by, first of all, asking a quick series of questions 

regarding the issue of the lines of credit, and then I will get to the 

issue of stock and then the issue of the regulator, if I could quickly. 


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One, you are seeking an unprecedented grant of authority to purchase GSE debt and stocks. What kind of assurances can we offer 

taxpayers—because we do not have a number here, this is an unlimited amount we are looking at potentially. What has happened 

with the $2.25 billion, the present authority that exists from the 

Federal Reserve? Why aren’t we going and just opening the discount window? Institutions that have access to the discount window—and Chairman Bernanke can respond to this as well—use 

GSE debt as collateral, as a basis of qualifying for borrowing at 

that discount window. If we do that, why not allow these GSEs to 

have direct access? That way we do not need legislative authority 

and would provide that kind of fresh capital we are looking at. Why 

not just go that route if we are looking for some quick action here 

that would reassure the markets that there will be adequate capital? 

Secretary PAULSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me answer 

that question. First of all, in terms of the size, as you know, when 

the GSEs were—legislation was set up in 1971 there was a direct 

line of a back-up credit provided by Treasury of $2.25 billion for 

each agency. At that time, Freddie Mac had capitalization of $1 billion. 

Why are we asking for an unspecified amount? And the reason 

we are is I have the same objective that you have. What I would 

like to do is provide stability in the market and do so at the least 

cost to the taxpayer. And I see it very clearly that the way to minimize the chance that this facility will ever be called upon will be 

to take any questions off the table and to provide as much flexibility as possible. 

Now, to your question relative to the—— 

Chairman DODD. Can I just interrupt? The big question we are 

going to be faced with our constituents is how much is this going 

to potentially cost us. 

Secretary PAULSON. Yes, and as I have said, since we believe 

that the right thing to do is to keep these institutions in their current form, the question which I am answering is that this is a 

back-up facility, hopefully would never be used; and if you want to 

maximize the chances it will ever be used, you would have maximum authority for a temporary period of time. We are asking for 

it for a temporary period of time. All I can do is tell you which in 

my judgment, what I believe is the best for providing stability, providing confidence, and minimizing the chance it will be used and 

minimizing the chance that people will lose confidence and draw 

down the back-up facility. 

Now, in terms of the—— 

Chairman DODD. Why not just the discount? 

Secretary PAULSON. In terms of the Fed, the Fed has a number 

of other very important priorities, and what the Fed did here, 

which was—and I am very grateful to the Chairman and for the 

Federal Board, because what they said to me was they said, Hank, 

if you can, you know, through your consultations with Congress, 

develop a plan and you believe based upon your conversation with 

the leaders—and as you know, I talked with many leaders of Congress—and you can get some buy-in in advance that something like 


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this might be acceptable, then we would be willing to provide a 

back-up while we are waiting. 

But I guess the question I would—the way I would throw it back 

at you, the Fed has their lender-of-last-resort responsibilities. That 

is unspecified. Why is it unspecified? It is unspecified because it increases the confidence. Congress in their wisdom set up the Treasury as providing the back-up facilities here. That is what the authority is. They just have not been updated in a long time. So that 

is why we—that is why we proposed—I consulted with Congress. 

We proposed this. We think this is the best way to limit the cost 

to the taxpayer. And, again, I am very grateful that the Fed agreed 

to be there providing the back-up while we are waiting for Congress to act. 

Chairman DODD. Let me ask Chairman Bernanke this. As I understand it, in the past there has been some willingness to allow 

access to the discount window if the $2.25 billion authority lines of 

credit has been exhausted. Once that is exhausted, then the possibility of having access to that discount window becomes available. 

Am I understanding that correctly? 

Secretary PAULSON. I would say that is—look at that as sort of 

a normal working of Government. I provided that, we provided that 

to the Chairman in the interim. But it was done with the understanding—and the way I worked with the Chairman over the weekend was we worked through the weekend, we consulted. I told him 

I made the various calls that I had made, that I was optimistic that 

we would persuade Congress that the back-up facility should be increased. And then on that basis, he went and agreed to fill it in 

in this period. 

Chairman DODD. Well, let me ask Chairman Bernanke the question. In fact, if the GSE debt can be used as collateral for other institutions that come and have access to the window, why not allow 

the GSEs to have access directly to that? 

Mr. BERNANKE. I think the reason has to do with who sets the 

criteria and makes the decision. The Federal Reserve’s lender-oflast-resort function is a very flexible tool. It is very important because we can use it quickly in unanticipated circumstances and 

provide liquidity in situations where it is needed. 

When a policy has potential fiscal implications, it is far better if 

time and circumstances permit to have the fiscal authorities make 

that decision. 

So I think it is really appropriate for the Treasury Secretary, in 

consultation with the Congress, and not the Federal Reserve Chairman, to make those decisions, and that is why it would, I believe, 

make more sense to be the responsibility of the Treasury Secretary. 

Chairman DODD. Is there any question in your mind that you 

have the authority to make that window available to the GSEs if 

you so decided to do so? 

Mr. BERNANKE. We do have the authority, although we have a 

regulation we would have to address which says only under economic circumstances that are stressed. But, again, I do think that 

the lending and the decisionmaking ought to be lodged with the fiscal authorities. 

I would point out that what the Secretary is proposing is not a 

simple expenditure. Either a liquidity provision or an equity purVerDate Nov 24 2008 01:51 Apr 02, 2010 Jkt 050410 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A410.XXX A410

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chase is a loan or an investment that has an asset on the other 

side. So it is not quite the same thing as a simple fiscal expenditure. It is a loan as the Government makes in many contexts, or 

an investment. 

Chairman DODD. My time has expired. Senator Shelby. 

Senator SHELBY. I want to pick up on what Senator Dodd was 

talking about. Secretary Paulson, just take us through slowly, step 

by step, what is the proposal that you have set forth to deal with 

the GSEs? And what is the potential cost to that? Because this is 

not an empty gesture. I think you mentioned a minute ago, used 

the phrase ‘‘they might not need this, they might not use this, this 

would be the best of all worlds.’’ But what if they did? Let’s go 

through the steps of what you are proposing so we can understand 

this fully. I think it is very important. 

Secretary PAULSON. Senator, I want to start off with something 

you said, which was essentially we did not design this, we are playing the hand we are dealt. Right? And as I see this, that what we 

have asked for—and I will go through them again—is, first of all, 

the authority for a temporary period of time, authority for 18 

months? 

Senator SHELBY. What do you mean by temporary? How long? 

Secretary PAULSON. Eighteen months, and I would like to talk 

about that for a minute, because we asked what is the right period 

here. And it seemed to me that we did not want to—I could have 

asked for it for the end of the year. It did not seem like—we do 

not know what the markets will be like at the end of the year. It 

did not seem like a great gift to give to my successor, whoever he 

or she may be, to have something like this expiring right away. 

And so as we thought about it, we said 18 months or through the 

end—I guess we said through the end of 2009, that should give 

time to get the new regulator established, to work through this current, you know, period of turmoil, to have the new administration—give them some time to assess the situation, give them some 

time to work with Congress, give you all time. And so that was 

where we came up with asking for it until the end of 2009. 

Senator SHELBY. How much money are you contemplating here? 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, again, I would say with that there is 

no current plan, and it would be the expectation, with a facility like 

this, that, again, a back-up facility is about confidence. And if you 

want to make sure it is used, make it small enough, and it will be 

a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

And so, again, all I can do is say to you that while I am here, 

I would—it would be—I would ask for it to be unspecified, and I 

would plan on doing what you found I have done in everything 

else, which would be consult extensively. 

The next authority we asked for was the authority at Treasury’s 

discretion, but also given, you know, the engagement and mutual 

support of the GSEs, that Treasury would have—— 

Senator SHELBY. Is that open-ended? Is that—— 

Secretary PAULSON. Again, that would be for 18—Senator, that 

is also for 18 months, because I again think that as I look at this 

proposal, I believe what we have got here today is something to address the short term and the long term. I am going to get to that 


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in a minute. So I think we have got a proposal that is going to address the short-term issue and the longer term. 

So with regard to, again, the temporary authority—and while I 

am here, again, I would plan on consulting—you know, consulting 

with you and the other leaders here before exercising that authority. But I would—— 

Senator SHELBY. The word ‘‘consulting’’ you are using here, is 

there any ambiguity to that? 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, yes, I would not like it to be a legislative requirement, and the reason I would not is, again, I think to 

the extent you limit it or take away the flexibility, it then makes 

it worth less in the marketplace. But, again, the authority to make 

an equity investment if it is deemed necessary. And, again, if that 

were done, it would be done with the appropriate protections for 

the taxpayer. 

And then, of course, the third—let me just—— 

Senator SHELBY. You go ahead. 

Secretary PAULSON. Then I will just say the third thing, because 

you asked for all three, and I think this is important here, because 

we have all been working—and you, Senator, have been a champion in this area. We have been working to get reform with a 

world-class regulator. And I think that when that regulator is in 

place and that regulator is up and going, I think there will be a 

real opportunity to have the discussion for what is the right size, 

what are the risk characteristics, capital requirements, business 

activities. And so I think you are going to be able to address the 

longer term. and this also addresses the short term. 

Senator SHELBY. Secretary, what is the trigger, at what point, in 

other words, would Treasury exercise this new authority? And 

what if, for example, the equity price falls below a dollar? We know 

the consequences of that, I think. Or if debt cannot be issued, or 

is it at the—is it too wide a spread over the Treasurys? In other 

words, a lot of these events—you just want to reserve that—— 

Secretary PAULSON. I think just for that, Senator, you have laid 

out the reasons why we would be—it would be self-defeating to 

start putting limitations on that. So I think the way I would see 

that and the way I would like it to work is temporary and the understanding you would have with me, although we would not have, 

you know, legislative requirements, the understanding you would 

have with me, this would be something that I would talk about 

with the leadership of this Committee and committees in the House 

before, and it would be if needed. And just remember, as you said 

in your opening statements, the regulator who we have confidence 

in has said they are adequately capitalized. The market is saying 

that there are concerns. And so we—one way of reassuring the 

market and being ready to respond is to say that—and, again, with 

the objective of market confidence and having the GSEs play that 

role which is so important in our housing market right now. 

Senator SHELBY. Are you basically saying that this is a temporary involvement by Treasury, it is not open-ended, but it is an 

involvement to reassure the markets and protect the downside? 

Secretary PAULSON. Right. I am saying the first two are exactly 

right. You said it very well. Temporary, protect the downside, and 

to make sure that these entities continue to play that role we are 


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going to need to play to get through this housing downturn. And 

the third part of this, which is, you know, the strong independent 

regulator, that is permanent. And that will be—and so as I said, 

this addresses the short term and the long term. 

Senator SHELBY. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you very much. 

Let me turn to Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to go back about 28 years, and we were concerned here— 

I was State Treasurer of Delaware at the time, but we were concerned about the failure not of GSEs but the failure of one of the 

Big Three—Chrysler Corporation. And I remember Lee Iacocca 

calling on the Congress, calling on the President to provide assistance. And what we did in my State and in a number of States, we 

negotiated a loan to Chrysler, collateralized loans, which we made 

and ultimately earned interest on. We actually made money on 

those loans. 

Here in Washington, there was an agreement negotiated with 

Chrysler, which involved, I think, warrants which could ultimately 

be exercised. And at the end of the day, Chrysler survived, and I 

believe the Federal Government actually made a dollar or two on 

the deal. 

I do not believe there was a great anticipation 28 years ago that 

that would happen. We were hopeful that Chrysler would survive. 

The fact that the money was made on the warrants and also on the 

loans that we made from our States was, if you will, the icing on 

the cake. 

There is a lot of concern here, rightfully so, of the exposure that 

we put the taxpayers to and the Treasury to by virtue of going 

down this path. Is there any upside, aside from the fact that we 

want the GSEs to survive, we want them to be there when the 

economy—when the market bottoms out, when all those renters 

across the country say this is the time that they want to start buying a house. And I think that will happen, hopefully sooner rather 

than later. But there is another upside other than making sure 

that our mortgage markets are prepared and our housing market 

is prepared for that recovery. 

Secretary PAULSON. Senator, let me mention two things. First of 

all, the big upside is every homeowner in this country or everyone 

who wants to buy a home or wants to refinance a home, refinance 

a mortgage is benefiting. But now let me also explain that unlike 

the Chrysler situation—and I am old enough to have been around 

to remember it—this is not what we are recommending. These organizations are very viable. They are playing a very important role. 

And what we are doing is—I am not here recommending putting 

taxpayer money in these institutions at this time. I am here recommending that we increase on a temporary basis the back-up facility 

to provide the confidence to the markets and to minimize the 

chance, greatly minimize the chance, that the taxpayer would be 

involved there, and here also to reassure and say that we have the 

capacity again for a temporary period of time to make an investment if it is needed and if it is in our discretion and the GSEs’ 

agreement, then if that—and only then if that investment is made 


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will it be made on terms where hopefully we will protect the taxpayer along the lines that you talked about. 

But the overriding issue here is the confidence in our capital 

markets more broadly, our financial system more broadly, the stability of our financial system more broadly, and the fact that the 

GSEs—really right now this market is the only really working secondary market in housing finance in our country today. 

Senator CARPER. One of the proposals that you have suggested 

is an increase in the Treasury line of credit for Fannie and Freddie. 

I have some concerns—and I suspect my colleagues do, too—about 

having no cap, no limit at all. For some of us, it sounds a little bit 

like a blank check. And I know that is not the intent. 

The second recommendation that you have is that the Treasury 

be authorized to purchase the stock of Fannie and Freddie. If you 

ultimately do that, and if the value of the stock does go up, is there 

some potential for Treasury actually making money on this deal? 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, let me say two things. First of all, your 

comment about the blank check, I think I have answered that before. 

Senator CARPER. I know you—— 

Secretary PAULSON. I hope you understand what I said. 

Senator CARPER. I did. 

Secretary PAULSON. And I know it is—if people have not thought 

about these issues for a long time, it is counterintuitive. But, really, the greater the confidence, the less likelihood that the taxpayer 

is actually going to end up paying. 

Senator CARPER. And I agree with that. 

Secretary PAULSON. And, second, I can assure you that if we decide to make an equity investment in these institutions, we will do 

so to protect the taxpayer, and, you know, I would believe there 

would be—but we would have to talk about that at the time. But 

obviously—— 

Senator CARPER. Let me interrupt because my time is limited. 

Let me just interrupt. So you don’t think several years down the 

line when the shares that the Treasury has bought in Fannie and 

Freddie turn out to be a windfall and we are able to balance the 

budget, there will not be, like—you will not be heralded and saluted for the role that you played in that? 

Secretary PAULSON. No. Again—— 

Senator CARPER. I say that with tongue in cheek. I say that with 

tongue in cheek. 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, again, what I am saying is—because I 

really do need to be clear. There is not a plan to do that at this 

time. I would sure hope, like you, that if there is one, that as our 

markets recover and if the shareholders put money in, they end up 

making a lot of money, as was the case in Chrysler. But, remember, this is not Chrysler, and there is not a plan to put equity in 

these institutions at this time. 

Senator CARPER. And if I could, one last quick question. I think 

you are proposing a more formal role for the Federal Reserve, 

working in conjunction with the new GSE regulator. How would 

that work? 

Secretary PAULSON. OK. Let me—because I think this is important, and it is something that we have thought about for a long 


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time, and we suggested it that other countries—the U.K. has taken 

this up with their central bank. I need to step back and say if you 

really look at what the market has come to expect, they have come 

to look at the Federal Reserve and saying if there is an issue that 

threatens market stability, we expect them to play a role. 

And so one of the things we have asked is not that they supplant 

other regulators. Not at all. That they have other—but have asked 

that they have some line of sight, they have a visibility and they 

are able to play a consultative role. So they—and it is only fair 

when you look at what—and fair to our country, what might happen. 

And so what this—to be very specific for you, this is not designed 

in any way to undercut the authority of the new regulator. This 

regulator has got to be world class, got to be a strong regulator. 

You will be working with a new regulator. You will be working 

with a new regulator to address the issues that so many people 

have talked about. But I would warrant that you and other Americans and people around the world will feel more confident—I sure 

will—knowing that the Fed is there to play a consultative role and 

be able to give their comments also. And that is the purpose. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Thanks so much. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you very much. 

Senator Bennett. 

Senator BENNETT. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Secretary, going to your testimony on the second page, you 

say, ‘‘Let me stress that there are no immediate plans to access either the proposed liquidity or the proposed capital backstop.’’ And 

you have made that very clear, and I think appropriately so. Then 

this sentence: ‘‘If either of these authorities is used, it would be 

done so only at Treasury’s discretion, under terms and conditions 

that protect the U.S. taxpayer and are agreed to by both Treasury 

and the GSE.’’ 

Can you help us understand a little bit more the specifics of the 

terms you have agreed to with the GSE? Or are there any—— 

Secretary PAULSON. There are no terms because we have not— 

as I said, there are no plans to use it as yet. I said ‘‘if needed.’’ And 

so if needed—and we would obviously be consulting, and we would 

look to work something out that was mutually agreeable. But it 

would have to be, you know, on terms that would protect the U.S. 

taxpayer. 

And so I cannot—it is a little bit like Senator Shelby said, that 

you could think of so many contingencies or what-ifs, it would be 

pretty hard to design those terms, you and I sitting here today. 

Senator BENNETT. Well, I am assuming if the GSEs felt, OK, we 

are in trouble, and then they came to you, that would be the triggering event that would cause you to look at it? 

Secretary PAULSON. That could be one triggering event, absolutely. It could be another triggering event that—we or the marketplace, you know, could be a triggering event. So I would not want 

to say to you the only basis on which we would talk to the GSEs 

about capital is if they came to us. 

Now, my own belief—and let me say—— 

Senator BENNETT. I assume you will be in conversation with—— 


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Secretary PAULSON. Yes, let me say we have been—and I just 

would compliment—I just want to say something about both of 

these organizations. I agree with Senator Shelby that there are 

systemic risks, and no one today who has looked at this could 

argue that there isn’t. But I would also say that when you look at 

the way they have run their operations, the reason we have these 

issues is they have got one line of business, there has been a housing correction. I would say that their standards and underwriting 

standards as we have gone through this period have been good relative to what we have seen many other places. And I would also 

say that they have worked with me, you know, not only over the 

weekend but leading up to the weekend, in a very constructive 

way. And so I would have every belief that, you know, the question 

you asked would play out that we would be in dialog, we would be 

in consultation. I think it will be very unusual if we suddenly say 

we think you need equity and no one else does, OK? I think this 

is something that we would work on together. 

But, again, to protect the Government, I cannot say that the only 

trigger is the GSEs come to us and ask for it and we give it to 

them. You would not want me to do that. 

Senator BENNETT. I understand that. And your discretion means 

they come to you and ask for it, you may say no. That could also 

be—— 

Secretary PAULSON. My discretion, that is right, we may say no 

or we may say these are the terms we think. But I think what you 

are going to find is it has got to be at our discretion. I was very 

clear with them when we talked over the weekend that this was 

not going to be something that we were going to be forcing on 

them. This would be something we would have to work on together, 

and it would be done mutually. 

Senator BENNETT. That is what I wanted to get clarified, and I 

think you are in exactly the right place. 

Chairman Cox, I was interested in your comments—you will not 

be surprised when I raise this, given our past history on the issue. 

I was interested in your comments about naked short selling and 

the steps that you are taking. I want to commend you. Your staff 

has been to see me with a list of all of the steps they are taking 

with respect to naked short selling. I want to stress again I am not 

opposed to short selling. Short selling is an essential part of maintaining an orderly market. But I am satisfied that there are circumstances where people sell short without, in fact, having located 

the stock that they are selling short, and then hope that the confusion in the marketplace covers up that fact and that they never 

get—the failure to identify the shares that they are selling short 

never catches up with them. And I congratulate you on the work 

that you have done there. 

May I make a suggestion, and this comes out of a completely separate kind of experience, but as I watched the Winter Olympics in 

Salt Lake City, I discovered something that I had never understood 

before. At the end of a luge run or a bobsled run, or whatever it 

might be, before the athlete gets out of the luge, he reached into 

a basket that is filled with colored balls, and he pulls out a ball. 

And it is orange or red or whatever it might be. If it is black, the 

athlete is instantly taken to a place where there is a drug test so 


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that the athletes know that there is always the possibility, even if 

it is completely random, that he or she will be subjected to a drug 

test. 

Might I suggest that you set up a SWAT team of some sort that 

can drop into a brokerage house completely unannounced, completely at random, on no particular tip, to simply say we want to 

pick out a couple stocks and look to see if within your brokerage 

house somebody has been in engaged in naked short selling. And 

it is completely random. You walk away with an orange-colored 

ball or a red ball and whatever. You are completely clean. There 

is no stigma attached to it. But I think the people who are engaged 

in naked short selling might be a little nervous if they thought 

there are a dozen people in the SEC that just might show up at 

our doorstep and start looking at this kind of thing. 

So I use the opportunity of your being here to make that suggestion to you, even as I commend you and your staff for the great 

strides you have made in this area in the past. 

Mr. COX. Well, I thank you, Senator. As I mentioned, in addition 

to the emergency action that we are taking today, which will have 

a 30-day life, we are also contemporaneously going to be starting 

a rulemaking focused not only on the primary dealers and on 

Fannie and on Freddie, but on the broader market. And in that 

connection, the kind of sweep examination that you were talking 

about, which is part and parcel of what the SEC routinely does, 

will help inform our decisions. And so I very much appreciate your 

suggestion. 

Senator BENNETT. Thank you very much. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DODD. Let me underscore that point as well. We had 

a conversation over the weekend, and just the mere announcement 

of where you are moving may have the desired effects that we are 

talking about. Just announcing things can have certain implications. I think this is very smart and very wise. I remember very 

distinctly in our hearing on Bear Stearns/JPMorgan Chase. I think 

I am quoting you exactly when you were asked a question—I think 

by Jon Tester it may have been—on this matter, you said certain 

matters are too big to miss, and we appreciate the fact that the 

agency seems to be responding to that. 

Mr. COX. We have been very busy on this for many months, Senator. 

Chairman DODD. Senator Menendez. 

Senator MENENDEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 

your testimony. I hope we have been listening to the Three Wise 

Men of the Economy here and that what you are telling us is going 

to steer us in a different direction. But I have some concerns. You 

know, I have in the past at some of these hearings suggested that 

we seem to be behind the curve instead of ahead of it; that we 

seem to be constantly reactive instead of proactive. And I am just 

wondering, you know, we seem to be in a pattern that is developing 

where our regulators suddenly realize an emergency on a Friday, 

and then hastily formulate a rescue plan at the 11th hour during 

the weekend. We saw this happen with Bear Stearns, and now we 

are talking about this as it relates to Freddie and Fannie. And we 

saw what happened at IndyMac. And I am just concerned that 


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what we have here is the equivalent of last-minute cramming regulatory action. And that puts us in a process of expediency over wellthought-out policy. 

You know, I wonder, Mr. Secretary, how is it that knowing what 

has happened with reference to companies that have been shaken 

dramatically, that have securitized loans over the past year, why 

we thought that Fannie and Freddie would be insulated from the 

very same market conditions that have crippled other companies 

that specialize in loan securitization. That is one question. 

The second question is: I hear you when you say that it is your 

intention or desire and hope not to use the very power that you are 

asking for, but I am concerned, you know, all of us here play a fiduciary role to the taxpayers not only of our States, in the country. 

And as you just mentioned a moment ago, it is counterintuitive to 

say give us a blank check or a blank authority as the best way to 

ensure that taxpayers are not on the hook. That is certainly 

counterintuitive. 

And the difficulty is, having just seen the Bear Stearns process 

that we went through, where it has now had about $1 billion of 

asset loss since March, which now puts us into the area where, in 

fact, the Federal Government—i.e., the taxpayers—begin to come 

into play in terms of responsibility for picking up the tab if this decreases further, I know it is not your intention to use it, but by the 

same token, you know, there is no safeguard under your proposal 

for us to create some limits of those liabilities should you have to 

use it. 

And, finally, I am concerned about that while I know it is not 

your intention to use it and you think that this is the best way to 

avoid taxpayer liability, just look at what Wall Street basically did 

in terms of when the plan was announced. You know, it pushed 

Fannie’s stock up by 20 percent, Freddie by more than 15 percent 

in early trading. And then it closed down 8, and Fannie was off 5 

product at the end of the day. So it almost seems to be saying— 

they seem to be saying it is just not enough. So did they want some 

guarantees here? And if you want guarantees, that means more 

than just the possibility for 18 months. It may mean more. 

So I hope you can address those issues. Why did we not see this 

possibility coming? How is it that, in fact, we go back and tell the 

taxpayers there is absolutely no way you are going to be put on the 

hook here, and, third, when we have lost $1 billion already in the 

Bear Stearns process? 

And then, finally, let me put the last question out there and let 

you answer it. It would be to Chairman Cox. I appreciate that you 

said, first and foremost, the SEC is a law enforcement agency. And 

I appreciate a good part of your written testimony talking about 

going after market manipulation where in one case the false rumors in Bear Stearns caused the stock to drop by 17 percent and 

wiped out $1 billion of market capital in the first 30 minutes and 

had the stock exchange halt the trading in the company’s securities. Can we expect you to vigorously pursue more enforcement activities of that type going in the days ahead? 

Those are the questions I would like to hear answered. 

Secretary PAULSON. Yes, Senator, let me respond. 


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First of all, on not foreseeing this. I would say to you, from the 

day I set foot in Washington, I started work to get GSE reform. I 

was told you got no chance of getting it. There are people on each 

side. It is a holy war. And the best you are going to have is what 

we currently have. 

Every time I testified, when I testified before this Committee before, and I got asked about various housing proposals, I said they 

are important but this is by far the most important. I did everything I knew humanly possible to move this through Congress. 

In terms of raising capital, again with the authorities we had, 

which was just really talking, pushing, even having meetings with 

the Chairman and the Ranking Member and the GSEs to raise capital. 

In terms of the plan, it could just as easily have come together 

during the week as over the weekend. We have been working on 

this. This was not a Bear Stearns situation. This is something that 

will be helpful at calming the markets. 

In terms of the unspecified line of credit, what I meant to say 

was not that it was counterintuitive to sophisticated people who 

are in markets all the time and used to thinking about it. What 

I said is if you are not used to thinking about these issues it seems 

counterintuitive. But if you are used to thinking about the issues, 

it is very intuitive, that if you have got a squirt gun in your pocket, 

you may have to take it out. If you have got a bazooka and people 

know you have got it, you may not have to take it out. You are not 

likely to take it out. 

I just say that by having something that is unspecified, it will 

increase confidence. And by increasing confidence it will greatly reduce the likelihood it will ever be used. 

And then I think that answers the questions. Chris? 

Mr. COX. Senator, I think you are absolutely right that more of 

these cases need to be brought. As I mentioned, they have not been 

brought in the history of the Agency largely because it has been, 

in the past, so difficult to parse where rumors start and where they 

are just being spread about in our increasingly efficient information 

society. But the tools that we now have with technology are permitting us to trace back in many cases, through e-mails, through instant messages and so on, to the very individuals that have manufactured intentionally false information that is designed to manipulate securities prices. And that goes to the bread and butter of 

what SEC law enforcement has always been about. 

Just for the record, I want to make clear that the example that 

I gave in my testimony of the first ever case that we brought came 

right in the wake of, just weeks after, Bear Stearns. But it was not 

Bear Stearns securities. It was Alliance Data Systems securities 

where that $1 billion drop in market cap occurred in 30 minutes 

as a result of the rumor. 

Senator MENENDEZ. Just one, Mr. Chairman. So do you expect to 

pursue more enforcements of this type? 

Mr. COX. Yes, we do. This will not be unique. And we have other 

investigations of this type underway. 

Senator MENENDEZ. Thank you. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you. Senator Hagel. 

Senator HAGEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 


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For the record, as the distinguished SEC Chairman noted, I want 

to just briefly respond to a comment that Secretary Paulson made 

in response to the distinguished Senator from New Jersey about 

what happened. 

I recall 6 years ago, Mr. Chairman, that I worked with then-Congressman Baker from Louisiana in the House on GSE regulation. 

And I introduced legislation based on Congressman Baker’s bill. 

And I could not get one cosponsor from my party or the other party 

on this issue. And I was informed by a number of people that this 

was so far beyond the realm of possibility, as we talked then and 

now are dealing with that reality today, systemic risk, what would 

happened? Would the taxpayers be saddled with this possibility. 

So Secretary Paulson’s answer is correct. In fact, when Secretary 

Paulson and I first became acquainted, I think the first conversation we had was about this issue. 

Now on to other issues more current in dealing with this reality. 

Let me ask the three of you, I am going to read a list of companies that you are all quite familiar with: Citigroup, AIG, Merrill 

Lynch, Wachovia, UBS, Bear Stearns, Morgan Stanley, MBIA, and 

there are others. What do they all have in common? Well, one thing 

they have in common is that their senior management has taken 

responsibility for what has happened to each of their company’s 

stock as it has gone down. And we know the rest of the story. 

Now here is the question: the current management of Freddie 

Mac and Fannie Mae, as far as I know, are well compensated. 

Their board is actually well compensated. And my question to each 

of you is how much responsibility should be placed on the management, on the management of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? 

We have been gliding over this issue for some time. I have not 

heard anyone address that today. Maybe someone has. I have not 

been here for every minute of the hearing. 

But should the management be held accountable? Let us start 

with you, Secretary Paulson. 

Secretary PAULSON. Yes. I would say, as a general proposition, 

I believe management should be held accountable and compensation should match performance. But I would say in these instances, 

again, these are companies that have a single line of business. It 

is housing. We have quite a significant—you would have to go back 

a long period of time to see a correction like we have had in the 

housing market. 

I believe that their lending standards have not been lax, certainly not compared with many others in the marketplace. The 

issues that you and I are concerned with have to do with systemic 

risk and reform and all of the things that will be debated with a 

new regulator. 

So my—and again, there is no proposal today to inject Federal 

funds in these companies at this time. 

So my experience with management has been a construction experience and a constructive experience as we are working through 

this. And my experience with the boards, I would say that I talked 

directly with the Freddie Mac board, did not talk with the Fannie 

Mae board but had very good discussions with Dan Mudd. And 

they all were very constructive. 


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So I am not looking for scapegoats here. I am looking to get this 

done and I am grateful for the service that board members are providing and that management is providing. 

Senator HAGEL. Well, I am going to ask each of you as well, I 

am not looking for scapegoats, either. I am looking for accountability. And if the American taxpayer—— 

Secretary PAULSON. I know you are, sir. 

Senator HAGEL. Mr. Secretary, if the American taxpayer is going 

to fulfill the plan that you have laid out, if we need to do that, then 

I consider them investors. Somebody has got to pay the bill. It 

seems to me accountability somewhere along the line here has to 

be brought forward. And I understand what you are saying. 

But this is not a new issue, Mr. Secretary, just as you presented 

that issue to me when you came to see me when we talked about 

your confirmation. 

Mr. Chairman, how do you respond? 

Secretary PAULSON. I would just say one additional thing, because you are right. If and when—and again, there is no plans to 

do it. But if Government funds go in, then I think we need to look 

carefully at the ways to protect the taxpayer, the appropriate terms 

and conditions, and think all of that through. 

Senator HAGEL. Well, the only comment I would make about 

that, then it is too late. 

Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BERNANKE. Well, I was going to just say that if the investment is made, just like any investor there would be terms and conditions. And if management changes or part of what the assessment was at that point in time, then that would certainly be something that the Treasury Secretary would be able to bring to the 

table as a possible condition. 

Senator HAGEL. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. COX. Senator, I am going to interpret your question as not 

a difficult one. Management in the private sector needs to be accountable to the board of directors and to the shareholders. And to 

the extent that both Fannie and Freddie are going to be private 

companies, the degree to which that accountability exists will be a 

measure of the degree to which they are successful in that respect. 

Senator HAGEL. Well, I have got 30 seconds here over and I 

would just add this as I end, Mr. Chairman. The real issue is going 

to be, should be, and it will be the next hearing, I suspect. I was 

reflected in a Washington Post editorial today, which I suspect you 

all read, The Perils of Paulson. 

The real issue is do GSEs work? I mean, what we are dealing 

with here just did not come out of the night, a bolt of lightening. 

We have been dealing with this issue for the last few years as far 

as not what Moody’s did today in cutting the preferred and say 

they may cut it more for these so-called whatever they are, agencies. 

So the question we are really going to be dealing with, the next 

president, the next set of Government managers and regulators, is 

this a model that works anymore? Because we are not going to be 

able to keep coming back and back and back to the taxpayer and 

no confidence in all that now is integrated into this system. 


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Now that if for another hearing another day, I understand. But 

I do not think we can walk away from the larger picture here. 

Secretary PAULSON. Can I just say, Senator, because you and I 

agree. I think, as I said, there is two parts to this. One is addressing the current situation and the other is the long-term. And I believe this plan has got both parts. And you get the strong regulator 

in place, you will have the opportunity. With that regulator there 

will be a time and a place, with that regulator in place, to address 

all of the issues that you want to address. Time, in terms of size, 

risk, business activity. 

But my comments were—had to do with the GSEs in the current 

model, the current form. And I am certainly not looking to be an 

apologist for management. But I just wanted to say that it would 

have been surprising to me if there were not some of these issues, 

given the size and given what is happening in the housing market, 

when they are in the housing market. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you. 

This will be a subject of longer discussion, but let’s remind ourselves, this began with predatory lenders out there marketing products that borrowers could not afford. GSEs, Fannie and Freddie, 

were never bottom feeders. They had some Alt-A, they had some 

subprime, but nothing to the extent these other institutions had. 

That is where the problem lay, the failure to actually oversee, to 

regulate, to monitor that effectively, is where the problems began. 

We had legislation adopted 14 years ago for which a regulation 

was never promulgated to protect against deceptive and fraudulent 

practices. Had that been done, had cops been on the beat, going 

after these people who are marketing these products as they were 

as aggressively, we would not be here today. 

This was not a natural disaster. This was malfeasance and misfeasance, in my view, that created this mess that we are in today. 

Senator Reed. 

Senator REED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Secretary, recently the Federal Reserve and the Securities 

and Exchange Commission entered into a memorandum to coordinate their supervision of the consolidated supervised entities. I do 

not believe there was a specific legislative requirement that they 

do that, they consult, or anything else. So why is it necessary to 

have a legislative requirement that this new super regulator consult with the Federal Reserve? 

I would think it would happen or could happen in the course of 

the common interest of both regulators. And the downside I think 

has been expressed by some of my colleagues, is if we have the 

super regulator, if he is looking over his shoulder every moment, 

even for—as your language requires—even for guidelines or directives concerning prudential management operations, that would involve the Federal Reserve I think in the routine decisions on a 

daily basis. 

Secretary PAULSON. Let me just say first thing is I think that is 

something confused there because it would certainly not be what 

the role of the Fed we would be suggesting. 

But let me get back to the specific question. The way the Fed 

and the SEC have come together underscores a very important 

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moded in this country. It is not just that we do not have a world 

class regulator with all the necessary powers for the GSEs. We 

have a regulatory structure that does not work the way we would 

like it to work for our financial system today. 

So while we are waiting for Congress—and it is going to take 

some time because these are going to take time to work through 

these issues and to deliberate. What you have seen is regulators 

have been able to come together and work cooperatively for the 

good of the system. And that is what you saw happening with the 

Fed and the SEC. In consultation with Congress, working together, 

using the SEC, working with the FED. 

There is now, while we are putting something in place, which is 

hopefully going to be a permanent long-term solution in terms of 

a strong independent regulator, we have made the case and I think 

it makes sense, and for the reasons I have articulated, not to be 

the primary regulator, not to look at appointment of directors, but 

to consult when you look at capital and issues of risk, and to formalize that. 

And that is, as I said, what we have suggested more broadly. 

And I think it is a good model. 

Senator REED. Well, Mr. Secretary, this is, I think, your language that coordination with the Board of Governors of the Federal 

Reserve prior to issuing any proposal or final regulations, guidelines or directives concerning the prudential management and operations standard and safe and sound operation of end capital requirements. 

That seems to be a rather expansive consultative process. 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, the idea is when you are going to consult, again, when you are consulting on prudential issues and capital issues, that is what we would like. And I would like to understand how that could be a negative, to have the Federal Reserve, 

which our country has come to look at on a de facto basis—and let 

me say, when the powers were put in place many years ago, we did 

not have GSEs. Our regulatory structure was set up when this 

country was primarily about banks. 

When you look at the importance that other financial institutions 

play, the thought is strong independent regulators. But to have one 

entity that we are looking to anyway for systemic risk, to be able 

to have a line of sight and to consult on matters of prudential regulation of capital. So that is just—— 

Senator REED. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Chairman, do you have the capacity to consult on a daily 

basis about directives that this new super regulator will be giving? 

Or the willingness? 

Mr. BERNANKE. Well, our understanding, as the Secretary said, 

is that there would be a strong independent regulator, which 

would—— 

Senator REED. Who would turn to you—— 

Mr. BERNANKE [continuing]. Not be the Federal Reserve. 

Senator REED [continuing]. For guidance on directives. 

Mr. BERNANKE. The Federal Reserve already has a good working 

relationship with OFHEO, as do many other regulators. And we 

are prepared to cooperate, assist in any way that the Congress 

thinks is helpful. 


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Senator REED. Well, it seems to me that one of the problems we 

have seen over the last several months, the regulatory response to 

many of these issues, was that the Federal Reserve was making 

statements and giving speeches about subprime, there were different actors. But there was a lot of consulting going on, but there 

was not a lot of regulating going on. 

I think one of the purposes that we have been striving for these 

many months is a regulator that—in the military parlance—unity 

of responsibility and command. They are the where the buck stops. 

I think we have to just consider this very carefully. I am not dismissing the merit of having an overarching regulator but I think 

we have to look carefully at capacity and also about making sure 

that the underlying regulator is not constantly looking over the 

shoulder on operational details, but is consulting where it counts, 

at the top in terms of risk, in terms of systemic risk. 

Secretary PAULSON. That is the intent here. And again, I would 

just say to you, and I just feel so strongly about this, that we have 

a fragmented system and with multiple regulators. And the regulators need to be strong. And we have fought to have this regulator 

be as strong and powerful as possible. 

But again, to have an overarching regulator with overarching responsibility for systemic risk being able to have a line of sight information, to be able to consult on these very important matters is 

something that we have recommended, and I believe something 

that would give the market great confidence. 

Senator REED. Thank you. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you very much. 

Senator Bunning. 

Senator BUNNING. Well thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

First of all, let me tell you, Secretary Paulson, and my good 

friend Chris Cox, the Honorable Chris Cox, that I am going to be 

here after you leave. You are going to be gone. And we are going 

to be responsible to the taxpayers. 

The taxpayers have reacted and the market has reacted to your 

plan, Secretary Paulson, by driving down Fannie Mae shares 26 

percent today, right now. And Freddie Mac’s are down 29 percent 

as of this moment, just in case you are interested on how the market is reacting to your wonderful plan on bailing out Freddie and 

Fannie. 

Oh, but you may not do it because it is only as a backstop. Well, 

do you know in the same bill that you would like to attach this to 

there is a tax on Fannie and Freddie from $500 million to $800 

million per year for a housing trust fund? Do you know that? You 

do not. Well, it is in the bill—— 

Secretary PAULSON. Senator, would you like me to respond to 

both your points? First of all—— 

Senator BUNNING. Well, I have got—go ahead, respond. 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, first of all, I would say I assume you 

would like to see a strong regulator for the GSEs? 

Senator BUNNING. Yes, I sure would. And we passed that 2 years 

ago and it got dumped between the Committee and the floor. 

Secretary PAULSON. And I assume you would want to get this 

GSE reform bill done. 


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Senator BUNNING. The other part is the part I do not like, the 

$300 billion other. 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, I have got to tell you, in terms of the 

housing trust fund, it certainly was not my idea. It is certainly not 

something I am pushing for. 

Senator BUNNING. But it is in the bill. 

Secretary PAULSON. It is. It is in your bill. But I would say to 

you that I would like to get a bill done. The housing trust fund is 

not the priority. And in terms of the stability for the stock price, 

it is not something I do not think any of us can do is stabilize the 

stock price. We are focused on the underlying credit and—— 

Senator BUNNING. Are you trying to stabilize Freddie and 

Fannie? 

Secretary PAULSON. We are. 

Senator BUNNING. Well, your plan is not being accepted. 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, I would say this, with all due respect 

Senator, the credit spreads are very strong and holding in there. 

I think there is confidence in the market. It is going to take time 

for shareholders to figure out what the value of those equities are. 

I do not think government can—— 

Senator BUNNING. Well, that is exactly what your proposal is, 

that Government be the backstop. 

Secretary PAULSON. Our proposal, again Senator, is that—well, 

you have heard me answer. If you have got a better idea, I would 

like to hear it. 

I think our idea is that by having the Government provide an unspecified backstop, the odds are very low that it will be used and 

the cost to the taxpayers will be minimized. 

Senator BUNNING. Well, there are a lot of us who would like to 

believe what you are saying. But we are a little skeptical. Because 

every time we propose and do something, it always gets used. And 

you want an unlimited amount used. And none of us at this table 

like that idea. Or some of us at this table do not like that idea of 

an unlimited sum of Federal dollars being backstopping two GSEs 

which are already assumed to be backstopped by the Federal Government to start with. They are price stock and they are equity. 

Do you really think, do you think that we can believe exactly 

what you are saying, Secretary Paulson? 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, I can tell you what you can believe. 

You can believe I believe everything I say and that I have been 

around markets for a long time and that I—— 

Senator BUNNING. So have I. 

Secretary PAULSON [continuing]. Share your frustration at not 

getting GSE reform legislation done. I share your frustration with 

certain parts of it. Again, all I can say to you is what I have said 

earlier, that—— 

Senator BUNNING. Where will the money come from if, in fact— 

where will the money come from if, in fact, we have to use the 

backstop? 

Secretary PAULSON. As I said to you, that it is my very strong 

belief that the way we can minimize the cost to the taxpayer, the 

way to minimize that cost—— 

Senator BUNNING. Is not to do it. 


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Secretary PAULSON [continuing]. And likelihood is to be unspecified and enhance the confidence in the market. So that is my answer, it continues to be my answer. 

Senator BUNNING. But it does not answer the question. Where is 

the money going to come from if you have to put it up? 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, obviously, it will come from the Government. But I would say—— 

Senator BUNNING. And who is the Government? 

Secretary PAULSON. The taxpayer. And what I am looking to do 

is the same thing you are, Senator, to minimize the cost to that 

taxpayer. And I think the surest way to do that is—— 

Senator BUNNING. Secretary Paulson, I know you are very sincere in your proposal. 

Secretary PAULSON. Yes. 

Senator BUNNING. But come January, you will be gone. 

Secretary PAULSON. Right. 

Senator BUNNING. And the rest of us will be sitting at this table, 

or at least most of us. And we have to be responsible to the taxpayer for what we have done. And I do not think this is a responsible—— 

Secretary PAULSON. Then Senator, you will vote against it in all 

your wisdom. 

Senator BUNNING. I will do everything I can to stop it. 

Secretary PAULSON. And maybe you will have a better plan, 

but—— 

Senator BUNNING. Yes, I had one about 2 years ago. 

Secretary PAULSON. But I am about getting something done that 

can get done that will make a difference, and in my judgment is 

in the best interest of the taxpayer and will minimize the cost to 

the taxpayer. 

Senator BUNNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Secretary PAULSON. You and I, respectfully, disagree. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you. 

Senator Tester. 

Senator TESTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Secretary Paulson, for a number of decades you were a banker. 

You probably wish you were back in that realm once more. But I 

just want to lay out a scenario for you and put on your old banker 

hat for a minute. 

If I were to come into you and ask you for an 18-month line of 

credit, unlimited, to be able to use any time I chose to use it within 

that 18 months with little or no assets backing it up, what would 

you say? 

Secretary PAULSON. Senator, what I am asking for is unspecified 

18 months. I have said I will consult with you. And if I was sitting 

where you are and you were asking me for what I am asking for, 

I would say yes because given my experience in the markets, I understand what market confidence is all about. 

As I said, you all have had more experience than I have had in 

Government. You have had more experience watching these GSEs, 

playing your Congressional role as it relates to them. 

I can just tell you, given where we are now, that if I were sitting 

where you were, I would say yes. 


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Senator TESTER. I appreciate the fact you brought forth a solution. I will go back to what the Chairman said. There has been a 

total—from my perspective—lack of oversight in the industry and 

it has gotten away. But let us just lay out the scenario. Let’s say 

you have to use that. Let’s say we do not do anything. In which 

case we hit a point where reserves versus loans in the GSEs hit 

a critical point and then the Federal Government steps in anyway. 

Isn’t that correct? Isn’t that the way the current law is? I believe 

it is. 

Secretary PAULSON. I would say that the current law we have a backstop credit facility which is $2.25 billion. Like so many other 

things that I found in Government, the architecture was set a long 

time ago, the market changed, the architecture did not change. 

That was put in place in 1971 when Freddie Mac had $1 billion of 

capital. 

Senator TESTER. So it is $2 billion period? 

Secretary PAULSON. Yes. 

Senator TESTER. And once that money is gone things tend to fold 

up pretty quickly; correct? What impact is that going to have on 

our credit rating, on the Treasury’s credit rating? 

Secretary PAULSON. What is it you were asking? 

Senator TESTER. What happens if we do nothing and the reserves 

to loans becomes improper proportion? What happens to our Treasury credit rating when that happens? 

Secretary PAULSON. As I said, we have no intent to nationalize—— 

Senator TESTER. No, I am talking if we do nothing and you spend the $2 billion, what I am asking is what happens? What is the 

downside? 

Secretary PAULSON. Well, the downside, the least of the downside 

if you spend that and nothing happens, the least of the downside 

is the $2.25 billion. We are talking about, Senator, two huge organizations. 

Senator TESTER. But it has got to be bigger than that. You are 

talking about potentially spending $1 trillion here. I mean, whoever you, or whoever the next Secretary of the Treasury is, if we 

pass this you are giving temporary authority to spend any amount 

of money that you want or whoever sits in your chair wants. It 

could be $1 trillion. 

And the question is if we are not—I am trying to give you a 

chance to explain what happens if we do nothing. If we do nothing, 

if this body does nothing, what is on the law right now you said 

is there will be a $2 billion expenditure. And then what happens? 

What happens to our credit rating in the Treasury? What happens 

to the housing market, people’s availability to get money, interest 

rates? What happens? 

Secretary PAULSON. Rather than speculating about a lot of 

things, what I will say to you is this: first of all, these entities are 

essential right now to the housing markets. I tried to explain that 

earlier. They are essential to homeowners. They have got securities 

all over the world. The confidence in their securities are essential 

to confidence in our capital markets. 

Senator TESTER. I am going to put that question in writing for 

you, because truthfully, if I am going to vote to allow you or whoVerDate Nov 24 2008 01:51 Apr 02, 2010 Jkt 050410 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A410.XXX A410

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ever sits in your chair the ability to spend an unlimited amount of 

money, I want to know what happens if I do not allow you that 

ability. I want to know. I do not want to know what projected interest rates are going to be and how long—you are in the business— 

how long you project them to be hi or low or no money available 

in the credit market, and the list goes on and on and on. Or what 

happens to our credit rating in the Treasury notes. All those 

things. 

I mean, I think they are really important. I mean, you might not 

want to speculate. But the truth is that you guys are the professionals. You guys deal with this issue every day. And if you had 

not been confirmed and were not in this position, it is a position 

of leadership. And we need to know what you think. 

That is all. I am not being critical. 

I do want to go back to what Senator Hagel said, though, about 

accountability, and accountability of the people who run the GSEs. 

Because right now what we saw, what we have seen from my perspective is a housing downturn, the banks start doing all sorts of 

funky stuff, going belly up and that kind of thing. 

And then you have got the GSEs who are supposed to be a backstop to them, if I see the picture correctly. And they are in as bad 

a shape or worse than some of the banks that they are supposed 

to be the backstop for. How did this happen? 

Secretary PAULSON. Again, first of all, I do not buy into the proposition that these institutions are not viable, that these institutions 

are playing a very major role right now in the economy. 

Now in terms of what has happened, I tried to address that earlier in a couple of other questions. In many ways, you would be better off asking the CEOs directly. But from my perspective, you 

have large entities, a single line of business, home finance. You 

have an event where a major downturn in home prices. So it 

should not be surprising to anybody that they would have some 

issues to work through. 

And they have been working through those issues. They have 

been playing a very important role in our housing market. 

Senator TESTER. OK, my time is done. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, 

for using more time than I should have. 

I will have some more questions for the record. I appreciate all 

three of you being here today. I am sorry I could not ask questions 

to you, Chairman Cox. I do have some questions about how the investigation is going. We need to visit again. You talked about a 

previous person who is—on a different issue—who was nailed. I 

would like to know how this is proceeding because the longer it 

goes the more people tend to forget. But that is all. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you, Senator, very much. 

Senator Dole. 

Senator DOLE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Bernanke, like Senator Hagel, I have been concerned 

about the health of these entities long, long before we got here 

today. In fact, I am sponsoring with Senator Hagel legislation to 

reform the GSEs since my first year in the Senate. 

Now let me try to look down a little different path to shift to another future focus. Last week, in a speech that you delivered at an 


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FDIC forum, you stated that since 2005 the Federal Reserve Bank 

of New York has been providing leadership for a major joint initiative by the public and private sectors to improve arrangements for 

clearing and settling credit default swaps and other over-thecounter trade derivative contracts. Furthermore, I believe that the 

offices at the Department of the Treasury and at the SEC have 

been looking at ways to improve the clearing of CDS. 

Could each of you tell us more about how regulators are attempting to make the CDS and other OTC derivatives markets more 

transparent? 

Mr. BERNANKE. Let me start. This is a very important part. It 

is an unglamorous part but it is an important part of the financial 

system to make sure that contracts are honored, that there is good 

record keeping and so on. 

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York has convened a group of 

public and private regulators and private industry participants to 

try to improve the speed and accuracy with which these contracts 

are recorded and they have made substantial progress in that respect. 

They have also extended this to some other instruments like equity derivatives, as well. It is very important, in times like these 

when the situation can change quickly, that everyone understand 

exactly what their positions are, who their counterparties are, and 

so on. And that is what this effort is all about. 

The New York Fed is also working with the private market to 

work toward a central counterparty who could take both sides of 

these trades and create the certainty that both sides were—that 

the contract would be honored, so it would not have to be bilateral 

and over-the-counter. 

Other changes are being made, for example providing for cash 

settlement in case the bond in question is not available. And as you 

indicated, improving transparency to provide more information to 

the public and to the market about the transactions that are taking 

place, and so on. 

The objective is to move our infrastructure in a direction where 

there is more standardization, more central counterparty activity, 

cleaner resolution in case of a problem, and better transparency. 

We think, by taking those steps, that the fragility of the system 

will be reduced and will make it much better to deal with stressful 

situations like the ones we have experienced recently. 

Senator DOLE. Mr. Secretary? 

Secretary PAULSON. The Chairman did such a great job, I am 

only going to underscore what he said and say, to really emphasize 

that I think of all of the recommendations that came out of the 

President’s Working Group on Financial Markets after this turmoil, 

this was the most important one. That it is strengthening that infrastructure. We have too much complexity, not enough standardization. And getting the protocols right, getting these contracts so 

they know that they will perform under stress is just critical to 

having our financial system work the way we need it to work. 

Senator DOLE. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. COX. I am sorry, Mr. Secretary, are you still—— 

Secretary PAULSON. I was just going to say one other thing that 

I had not said, Mr. Chairman, at the start which is I do believe— 


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and just to underscore what you said—given what is going on in 

the world, people all around the world are watching us. And I 

think this is something that should be done quickly in terms of the 

GSEs. And I think this is something that will be a great confidence 

builder throughout the world, to see Republicans and Democrats, 

both houses, come together and do something quickly here. 

Chairman DODD. I agree with that. 

Senator DOLE. Earlier this month, the Financial Times published 

an editorial suggesting the need for regulators to begin to explore 

implications of the rise of equities trading. This is in an off-exchange trading environment, what is called dark pools. 

As we have seen across the derivatives market during this current credit crisis, the collapse of confidence in pricing these structured products has led to serious issues that the financial markets 

are still grappling with as we sit here today. 

I am concerned that down the road the equities market could inadvertently suffer a similar lack of price transparency by way of 

these dark pools. Could I ask each of you to comment on whether 

you have been tracking these entities and what your reaction is to 

transparency concerns in this area? 

Mr. COX. Senator, the dark pools, of course, can only function to 

the extent that they have a reference price in an open and transparent market. So at least, so long as they are operating at the 

margin, there can be efficiencies with internal matching of trades. 

But I think your point is a very, very important one. As our markets continue to become more global and we are exposed to more 

and more, different participants in the markets that are lacking in 

transparency, we have to worry as regulators that the basic function of our markets, price discovery, will not occur in the most efficient fashion unless all of the information that is necessary for that 

to occur is transparent. 

And so we have a very, very weather eye to these developments 

and we want to make sure that in every corner of the market, including equities, that transparency will be maintained for the benefit not only of the efficiency in the markets and pricing, but also 

investor confidence and the investors’ willingness to participate in 

these markets. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you very much, Senator. 

Senator Casey. 

Senator CASEY. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I think I 

might be the last questioner. I know those that have been waiting 

a long time will be happy to hear that. 

I want to thank all three of you for your testimony today as witnesses. But my questions will be directed at Secretary Paulson. I 

had a chance earlier to ask some questions of Chairman Bernanke. 

And Chairman Cox, I hope I can get to you on another day, if not 

today. 

I wanted to pick up on something the Chairman said earlier, that 

all of this began with predatory lending. I think all of us would 

agree on some of the origins of our problems here. In the State that 

I represent, Pennsylvania, when you are just looking at it from the 

perspective of the subprime market in terms of our housing challenges, it is really remarkable. A report done in the early part of 


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2008, when you look at the rate of subprime mortgages, just the 

existence of those mortgages at a very high rate, it was not just 

a big city like Philadelphia. The other 8 counties cited in the top 

9, really, were all rural or relatively rural counties. I mentioned 

this, I think, to Secretary Paulson before. 

In light of that, though, I just wanted to let the Secretary know, 

I have sent a letter today to HUD Chairman Preston and I have 

copied you on this letter. You can react to it or not, because you 

have not seen the letter. But I want to highlight what the letter 

is about. 

It is an attempt to provide some answer, some one solution to 

part of our subprime crisis. 

In Philadelphia, a new program called the Philadelphia Residential Mortgage Foreclosure Diversion Pilot Program—a long name 

for a program which does two or three things basically. No. 1, it 

requires face-to-face meetings between borrowers and lenders and 

no owner-occupied home can be sold at a sheriff’s sale without the 

owner first getting an opportunity to take part in a ‘‘conciliation 

session’’ with lenders. That is part one. 

Part two is the homeowner must participate in a free counseling 

session to develop a proposed payment schedule to present to their 

mortgage company. 

And finally, the third point, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported 

that approximately 200 Philadelphia lawyers—you do not hear too 

much about lawyers in this context—200 Philadelphia lawyers 

have donated their time to the program. And out of 600 homeowners who are in danger of losing their homes, approximately 325 

were able to avoid foreclosure and eviction. 

I say that really to all three of you, but in particular to Secretary 

Paulson because I know you have worked a lot of months now on 

this problem and you have been determined and dogged and creative and resolute about it. And I would ask you to take a look at 

that letter and see if there is anything Treasury could do to—if you 

can endorse it and highlight it. 

Basically, what we are asking is to take a share of the counseling 

money and use it for a program like that. I do not know if you have 

any reaction to that. 

Secretary PAULSON. Senator, it sounds like a good idea and we 

will be on it. You have been particularly constructive in working 

with us and helpful and appreciate the ideas. And this is one we 

will very much look at carefully and follow up on. 

Mr. Chairman, could I just say one other thing? That when we 

were talking about—— 

Chairman DODD. I am not sure Senator Casey is through. Are 

you through? 

Senator CASEY. I just have about two more minutes. 

Secretary PAULSON. I am sorry, Senator. 

Senator CASEY. I wanted to ask you about—you had a couple of 

questions that were posed to you today regarding the GSE reform. 

And in particular in your testimony the second part of your proposal talks about 18 month temporary authority to purchase only 

if necessary equity in either of the two GSEs. 

Am I correct in understanding that that authority, the dollar 

amount would be unlimited? 


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Secretary PAULSON. Yes, Senator. On that, again, we were not 

sure how to size that, what would be necessary. Again, the reason 

we did not want to put a specific number on it, we thought if we 

were unspecific it would be more confidence inspiring and it would 

put the Government in a stronger position and minimize, again, 

the cost to the taxpayer. 

Senator CASEY. So the reason for the unlimited nature of it is to 

send a signal to inspire confidence? 

Secretary PAULSON. It was to send a signal, inspire confidence, 

no specific plans. 

But again, to get back the other topic we talked about with the 

backup facility. As I said before, in 1971 Freddie Mac, Treasury 

was given a $2.25 million line of credit for a backup facility. And 

then Freddie had $1 billion of assets. Today, at the end of 2007 

they had $794 billion. 

Again, we are asking for this for the whole system. There was a $4 billion line of credit for the Federal Home Loan Bank System. 

And today it is, in 1980 they had $54 billion of assets. Today they 

have got $1.3 trillion. With Fannie Mae in 1971, again $2.25 billion Treasury facility. Today they have got $883 billion. Then it was $19 billion. 

So again, I just think this is another example of what I have 

found throughout Government, a regulatory structure, a system, 

architecture that was set up to deal with a world that existed at 

one time not being updated to deal with the world we have today. 

Senator CASEY. One more point. I am just about out of time. This 

is not in the form of a question. But I was struck by something you 

had in your testimony. I am looking at the second page under the 

second part of your proposal. This just jumped off the page at me, 

where you conclude that section—and I do not say this to be argumentative. I say it to ask you to deliver a message to the person 

that you report to. 

You conclude by saying, you conclude this section by saying when 

you are talking about GSE reform bill, ‘‘hopefully about to be enacted with the modifications we are recommending today.’’ The 

word enacted jumped off the page. 

Because look, if we are going to meet the goal that you have set 

forth of enactment, and we all want something enacted, the President of the United States, President Bush, has to show some leadership on this. And what we have gotten so far on this particular 

legislation are veto threats. And in particular, he is talking about 

vetoing this legislation probably for several reasons. But the one 

reason that he keeps identifying is CDBG money, Community Development Block Grant money, not the modifications that you are 

recommending. 

So I would ask you to tell the President that if this is to be enacted as you want, and I want, and a lot of other people, he has 

got to help us here. He cannot just be a partisan fighter on this. 

He has got to help us get this passed. 

Secretary PAULSON. Senator, let me say the President is very 

committed to getting this passed. The focus has been on GSE reform modernization. We, in the Administration, have taken the 

view which is a strong view that the CDBG block grant is not 

called for. And it has been my expectation all the way along that 


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when the bill got to the President’s desk it would not have that as 

part of it. 

And I think that continues to be my expectation. And again, I 

just hope we can get this done quickly, that we do not take hostages. It just would be a great signal for the whole world to move 

this through quickly. 

Senator CASEY. Thanks very much. 

Secretary PAULSON. Thank you. 

Chairman DODD. Senator Schumer. 

Senator SCHUMER. Well, thank you. And I apologize to the witnesses. As I am sure people have mentioned, we have our Democratic and Republican Caucus lunches, and so I had to be there. 

First I just, not my main point of questions, but I wanted to underscore what Senator Casey said. We are going to need broad bipartisan support to get this done. There is already word that one 

Republican senator said he would do everything he could to block 

it, which then means we need 60 votes. So we have to do this in 

a bipartisan way. And we just need your commitment and the 

President’s, that they are going to do everything they can to get 

this done and done quickly. 

I, for one, think that you have put together a good plan. And you 

are sort of in a funny situation here. I mean, markets always get 

overconfident. That is the history of them. That is why we have 

booms and busts. But in this world of universal knowledge, everyone gets overconfident at once. And it is not one corner of a State 

or then one corner of a country or even one country in the world, 

but everybody. 

And so when the problem occurs and everyone thinks OK, we can 

all do no doc mortgages because housing values will always get up, 

everybody gets in trouble. And that means you need broad solutions. 

And so I, for one, think that the irony here is the more limits 

we put on this, the more worried the markets be. And if the real 

issue here is not the fundamental strength of Fannie and Freddie, 

low as their stock price is, but rather the psychology, in a certain 

sense the more open-ended the power, the ability—not the use but 

the ability, as I think you said, it is a bazooka in your pocket that 

you hope you do not have to use—the better. 

So I hope we can move this quickly and I think we ought to be 

careful before imposing various limitations in terms of giving the 

markets confidence that if, God forbid, something bad happens— 

and I do not think it will—the Government will be there. So I salute you on that. 

The two kinds of limitations that I think are appropriate are one, 

in time. You have had 18 months. Maybe it should just be a year 

and we will renew it if, God forbid, it is still bad. 

The second, and you have done some of this, is to make sure the 

Government comes first over the shareholders, that the Government is fully repaid before the stockholders and other financial interests get repaid. Can you assure us that the plan we put together 

will keep that limitation, which I think is a reasonable limitation 

that will not spook the markets in any way, is there? 

Secretary PAULSON. Yes, Senator. As we had a discussion and 

Senator Shelby raised some issues there and said that, as we went 


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through it, it is very difficult out how to structure something when 

we have not even made a decision. And there is no decision, no intent, at this time to put money in. 

I would say if we do, we will be very mindful of structuring 

something in a way in which it protects the taxpayer. 

Senator SCHUMER. And you know, Freddie’s debt offering yesterday, as I understand it, was oversubscribed and they were able to 

borrow at low rates? 

Secretary PAULSON. Yes. 

Senator SCHUMER. I do not think that would have happened 

without this plan being there in the back of people’s minds. And 

that, I think, attests to the need for it, the need to do it quickly, 

and the need not to spend too much time just arguing about limitations and delaying it for a couple of weeks. Because even if there 

is a 5 percent chance, if you are at the precipice, you do not want 

to even risk falling over. Do you agree with that? 

Secretary PAULSON. Thank you for your support. Thank you. 

Senator SCHUMER. Yes, OK. 

The second question I have to Chris Cox. This is on short selling. 

I asked Chairman Bernanke at the first half. I am hearing from 

more and more responsible people that some kinds of limitation 

should be placed on short selling. Not to eliminate it. It is a fundamental part of the market. We need it. And it does a lot of good 

things. A lot of short sellers prove companies are overstating or 

being too optimistic. 

In the old days we had the uptick rule, which seemed to work 

pretty well. And then we went from selling stocks in eighths, and 

an eighth of a point uptick was significant, to selling it in hundredths and a one-hundredth of a point is not very significant. 

But what would be wrong with reimplementing the uptick rule, 

not for one uptick but for say 12 upticks, so you are back to where 

you were before? Particularly, and I think I talked about this with 

Chairman Bernanke, for financial stocks, which seem to be under 

particular assault, and also are more subject to the psychology we 

talked about than those who make tangible goods? 

Mr. COX. Well, Senator, I think you are right on several respects. 

First, our rule 10a–1, which goes back to 1938, had much more of 

a real life meaning when stocks were trading in eighths than after 

decimalization. 

The effect or lack of effect of this rule was studied more carefully 

by economists within and without the SEC than I think anything 

that the Commission has done in recent years. And it was just very 

clear that that rule no longer mattered, that everybody was trading 

around it, it did not have any point. 

What we do know, however—and this is a second point on which 

I agree with you. What we do know is that the combination of short 

selling and other manipulation in the market can be a very, very 

volatile mix. Indeed, it is a witch’s brew of very dangerous activities. So we want to make sure that the combination of short selling 

and the intentional spread of false information can’t occur in our 

markets. We are doing a lot of enforcement around that. 

The emergency action that we announced today is going to have 

a lot more effect than the price test which economists have told us 

did not do anything. 


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Senator SCHUMER. No one believes you will be able to track down 

purveyors of false information very often. So it is not very—it is 

true, we should do it. But it is not very effective. 

Mr. COX. No, the emergency action I am talking about is—although the enforcement piece—— 

Senator SCHUMER. No, I know that. 

Mr. COX [continuing]. I think we will get better at. But what I 

am talking about is a hard locate requirement, a pre-borrow requirement for—— 

Senator SCHUMER. Just tell me for a minute, why would that be 

more effective than a modified uptick rule, which seemed to work 

pretty well for the decades before we went to decimalization? 

Mr. COX. One of these is aimed at preventing naked short selling. If you are really trying to drive a stock down and you want 

to do it in a manipulative fashion, combining false information or 

rumors or what have you with the ability to put so much pressure 

on the stock that you are using shares that might not even exist, 

is the sort of thing that I think investors have a right to have the 

Federal Government guard against. 

But another thing that the Commission is going to be looking at, 

in addition to broader rulemaking on the naked short selling side, 

is the question of whether some other kind of a price test that is 

not in pennies, that is not related to a tick, might be useful for circumstances such as we find ourselves in now. We are very open to 

that and, in fact, we are going to be doing it. 

Senator SCHUMER. Secretary Paulson, do you have any comments 

on that, given your broad experience in the markets? 

Secretary PAULSON. I would have the following comment: you are 

very right that the regulatory architecture did not keep up with the 

change in markets. When you went to decimalization the uptick 

rule became meaningless. A stock is at 100, someone can bid it up 

to 100.01 and then short it. I would say that is No. 1. 

No. 2, I can tell you that Chairman Cox has been focused on 

many things that are making a big difference. And he has been focused very hard on this area and I am very supportive of the steps 

he has taken. 

Chairman DODD. Thank you very much. 

Senator Shelby. 

Senator SHELBY. Thank you, Senator Dodd, Mr. Chairman. 

I just want to recapitulate here, just for the record and for our 

knowledge base, that you are proposing, Secretary Paulson. These 

are your words. 

First, as a liquidity backstop—that is No. 1—the plan includes 

an 18-month temporary increase in Treasury’s existing authority to 

make credit available for the GSEs. You also do not want to put 

a dollar amount on it. 

Now I understand sometime the reason for ambiguity, not stating things. But I think you could be risking the taxpayer’s dollar 

here. I think we had better look at this. We will consult with you 

on this. But to give you, and we have a respect for you as Treasury, 

a blank check I am not sure. But I understand why you do not 

want to put a dollar amount on it. I think I do. 

Second, your other set of your proposal is to ensure that the 

GSEs have access to sufficient capital to continue to fulfill their 


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mission. I think that is very important. And this gives Treasury an 

18-month temporary authority to purchase, if necessary, equity— 

in other words stock—in the two GSEs. And there is no dollar 

amount on that, either, and so forth. 

Third is something we have been working at a long time, dealing 

with the GSE reform, and that is to bring about a strong regulatory reform and so forth. And a strong regulator of GSEs. 

Now, are you basically proposing a stand-alone, as Senator Dodd 

and I have, regulator over the GSE with a lot more power than 

they have had in the past, which you have indicated. And then a 

role for Treasury and the Federal Reserve here. But you are not 

making yourself and recommending to yourself, I hope, and for the 

Fed, you would be kind of co-regulators. Am I correct? 

Secretary PAULSON. I was not even—I do not believe that—I do 

not see a role for Treasury in the consultative regulatory process. 

Senator SHELBY. OK. 

Secretary PAULSON. That would not be my proposal. But for the 

Fed it would be. And so again, as you have stated, it would not be 

co-regulator. Not at all. It would be, we would have a strong independent regulator. And then the Fed would have a consultative 

role, as we are suggesting more broadly across the whole economy 

but for the reasons that I have stated before. 

But again, I am not suggesting that role for Treasury. 

Senator SHELBY. Well, I think the Fed will obviously play—since 

they are the central bank here—they will play a role in any kind 

of a rescue package or whatever you want to call it. 

On the other hand, we have not reached the point of legislation 

to fulfill some of your recommendations on what role the Fed will 

play in the future in our financial regulator, what role the SEC will 

play, or what role Treasury will play, and so forth. So I think these 

three things, Senator Dodd and I would recommend, Senator Dodd 

as just a member of the Committee, that we try to work with you 

on this. And that we also try to protect the taxpayer and see where 

we are going, Mr. Chairman. 

Secretary PAULSON. And I would just very respectfully say I 

think if you institutionalized a consultative role for the Fed on 

something this important, it would inspire market confidence and 

it would help protect the taxpayer. 

Senator SHELBY. Thank you. 

Chairman DODD. Let me wrap up here. First of all, let me thank 

the three of you very, very much, particularly Chairman Bernanke, 

who has been tremendously patient here for a long time before this 

Committee this morning. But I do not think anyone would argue— 

I cannot think of another moment in time, certainly in my tenure, 

when there is as much at stake as the decisions we have to make 

in the coming days. 

And let me end where I sort of began, Secretary Paulson, by commending you and others who worked over the last number of days 

in proposing some ideas here. Inaction is not an option. And clearly, we need to consider some steps that need to be taken. 

Having said that, I also want to emphasize to you and I understand the need for moving expeditiously. But I want to make very 

sure to the extent possible we have thought about this to the extent we have to here, going through this. 


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There are a couple of issues that come to mind and Senator Shelby and I are going to sit down. I will be talking with my members 

of the Committee to go through these steps and think it through 

carefully. 

For instance, just as a suggestion I say to you here—and I realize a statement is not a legislative proposal. So I understand the 

distinction between the remarks you have made here and what has 

to be drafted if, in fact, we are going to include some things. But 

on this issue involving the equity interest here, at least the language in your proposal talks about consulting with the GSEs. But 

I think you are going to have to spell out specifically, if the GSEs 

are going to be directly involved, that needs to be covered. 

It cannot be the sole discretion of Treasury, in my view, or you 

are going to have the private markets react negatively. I happen 

to agree with Senator Schumer that probably the Federal Government ought to be protected. I suspect that that is going to have an 

undesirable reaction by the private market if they feel as though 

they are going to come in second at a time we are trying to get private capital into this. 

So we have got to think this through. This is not a contradiction 

to get what needs to be done. But I want to sit down and talk with 

people to make sure that before we draft stuff here we are not 

going to do something that we are going to regret. 

Now you do not intend that, and I know that. 

I want to ask you, Chris, we have not asked you about this. And 

you have got, your job is to protect investors. What are your reactions to this? You are a talented individual. You served with us up 

here in the Congress. You know these issues pretty well. What is 

your reaction to this? This is important, to get some views that you 

would have on this. 

Mr. COX. As you know, the SEC has had its own involvement 

with Fannie and Freddie, with enforcement actions. In fact, very 

recently, in the last year, bringing actions that have nearly broken 

records for penalty size and so on because of accounting. 

We want to make sure that as Freddie now becomes a reporting 

company, so both Fannie and Freddie will be reporting companies. 

As you consider whether or not to maintain an exemption under 

the 1933 Act for their debt and their mortgage-backed securities or 

whether they should be treated like other private companies, that 

they do in fact start to look like other private companies. 

My recommendation to this Committee before and again today is 

that that exemption be discontinued and that they become reporting companies essentially like any other private entity. 

I would hope that in addition to what we are doing right now, 

which is in extremis, that we keep in mind the end state that we 

are trying to achieve and that we quickly learn the lessons of the 

moment, which include the fact that the systemic risk that has 

been able to be located in here, in part because of the Government 

embrace or the perception of a Government embrace of them, that 

that no longer be the case in the future. 

I think the combination of socialized risk and private profit is a 

very suspect model. And so I hope that the Congress takes as much 

advantage of this opportunity as you possibly can to treat those 

problems, as well as the immediate problems. And I think given 


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the fact that Fannie and Freddie together comprise about $5.3 trillion out of the $12 trillion U.S. mortgage market suggest that we 

have not any choice but to deal with them in the near term as we 

are doing because of that implicit Government guarantee that has 

always been there. 

Chairman DODD. So this idea that you have heard the Secretary 

talk about is one that you think makes some sense? 

Mr. COX. Well, obviously, there is a big distance between this 

proposal of making clear to the market that the Government is 

going to stand behind Fannie and Freddie and how you in Congress 

choose to execute it. And I think it is important simply for the 

SEC, as the investors’ advocate, as the administrator of our rules 

and regulations for disclosure and so on, to observe that to the extent that you can make Fannie and Freddie fit in with the rest of 

that system, as they have been moving toward in any case, and accomplish that in the bargain, so much the better. 

Chairman DODD. Well, we may want to call upon you or your 

staff in the next matter of hours and so forth as we look at all of 

this to get some thoughts on this. 

I tried to think, if I could, of another example in my 27 years 

where we had one regulator have to consult—at least in the language you have used here, Hank, and the way we describe the 

Fed’s role here. I could not think of another example of where we 

had one regulatory statutorily—as Jack Reed was asking the question. We sort of expect that, as the Chairman pointed out he 

consults all the time with the SEC, I presume with the Treasury, 

on matters. That goes on every day. 

But statutorily requiring it takes this to another level. And I am 

just uneasy about what we are trying to achieve here. You know, 

I want to hold some hearings at some point here on the architecture for financial services and the regulatory needs of the 21st century. And that needs to be done. 

I am not sure I want to get to a financial services administration 

model yet that Great Britain has. And I respect that model. I think 

it works well for them. But I want to, as the Chairman of this 

Committee, listen to a lot of different ideas as to how we ought to 

create that architecture. 

I wonder if we are back-dooring this a little bit here, in trying 

to get to that point in a moment like this, and whether or not we 

ought to be—— 

Secretary PAULSON. This is obviously your decision, and this is 

a major decision. And again, in terms of the U.K., we suggested it. 

I believe they are moving to adopt it. OK. I do not say they have 

this now. 

I think the thing you need to ask yourself, and you need to ask 

yourself long and hard, is when we have a system that was developed when commercial banks were not only the dominant, the predominant financial institution. And now we have a system where 

we have got the GSEs. We have got hedge funds. We have got investment banks. And it is going to be a long time, no matter how 

many hearings you hold, before the regulatory structure of this 

country is changed in a way in which it meets up with the world 

in which we live in. 


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And so, as we have noted, that if people look increasingly to the 

Fed to play a clean up role, to me we need to put ourselves in a 

responsibility where we minimize the likelihood that we get into 

situations like this. And one way to do that is to have one regulator 

across the whole economy—not to supplant the other regulators. 

But to be able to look at risks to the system. And when they see 

risks to the system, be able to get the information, see the risks, 

and play a role. 

But as you rightfully point out, which is very fair, we have presented this idea and presented the idea. And what we are doing is 

bootstrapping it onto something which we felt would be the right 

move and would inspire market confidence and is an obvious step. 

But you may choose not to do that now, but that is—— 

Chairman DODD. Listen, I am more in agreement with your overall needs, in fact, and how we ought to look at the architecture 

down the road. That is a very legitimate question. I know there are 

a lot of different ideas as to what that ought to look like. 

Let me ask you, Mr. Chairman. I know your answer is look, 

whatever Congress decides to do, you accept those conclusions. But 

I need to ask you whether or not you would want this role that has 

been described over the GSEs. In your view of the role of the Federal reserve bank, is this—put aside whether or not we decide to 

give it to you or not, I want to know whether or not you think you 

ought to have it? 

Mr. BERNANKE. Well, it bears, to some extent, on this overall architecture. We need to think about the whole system and whether 

you want to have this kind of centerfield, safety or whatever position. And if so, what appropriate authorities would be to go along 

with that responsibility. 

So as the Secretary points out, this is just a portion of the overall 

structure that the blueprint recommends. If we do only that piece, 

then it really is not doing the whole approach. And so in that context, it would really be ratifying, to some extent, what we already 

do which is talk to other regulators and we talk to OFHEO. 

I do think that we could be helpful to them. They could provide 

information to us. And we are willing, if it is deemed valuable to 

do it. 

But I think doing that is not the same thing as accepting this 

overall model that Secretary Paulson’s blueprint puts forward. As 

I have said, I think that is a very interesting direction worth discussing. But being risk-averse, I would want to make sure that if 

the Federal Reserve were given such overarching authority or responsibility that the authorities that it received would be commensurate and allow it to fulfill that responsibility. 

Chairman DODD. I understand that. 

In other words, if I am understanding you correctly, obviously 

the consultative role as I understand it—we all understand the 

word consultative role. But I also, I think I hear you saying you 

do not want veto power over OFHEO? 

Mr. BERNANKE. No, I do not think so. But I think—again, we can 

discuss it in the context of a broad reform. In this context, again 

we will do whatever Congress wants. 

Chairman DODD. I understand. 


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Mr. BERNANKE. But I think the most valuable thing would be for 

us to be in a consulting/discussion/information exchange type of relationship. 

Chairman DODD. But not a veto role? 

Mr. BERNANKE. No. 

Chairman DODD. Not the super regulator? 

Mr. BERNANKE. That is not my thought at this moment, but we 

would want to think about the whole system. 

Secretary PAULSON. Mr. Chairman, let me just add one thing to 

what Ben said, which is something we have talked about extensively obviously. 

As part of the overall regulatory architecture if you decide to do 

that in the months ahead, to make this work for the Fed they 

would have to have—with the overarching responsibility—they 

would have to have certain authorities. They would have to have— 

they would not become the regulator for any of these entities, but 

they would have the power to get information, to disseminate information, to consult on the capital rules. And then, if they find a real 

deficiency, they would need to have the powers to deal with that, 

corrective powers. 

So what the Chairman is saying is the idea that has been proposed, which would be part of something that would be much 

broader that you would do if you decide to do it, which would be— 

because we have no one today that looks across entire financial architecture and to be able to have responsibility for saying OTC derivatives, as the Senator pointed out are a problem, or to be able 

to look at one thing or another. 

So what we have done here was just proposed a portion of that. 

Chairman DODD. You are asking us to act expeditiously on something that clearly needs some urgent attention. This is an issue 

that deserves a lot of thought and consideration. There is a broader 

question. And I just do not want to have us graft on to a problem 

we need to address in the next few days with something that is far 

more far-reaching, that deserves a lot more thought and consultation before we move in that direction. 

And I am, as I say, relatively sympathetic to the direction you 

want to move in. I do not think we want to do exactly the models 

we look at in some other places, but clearly some additional 

thought on the overall architecture. That is my concern. 

Yes, Chuck? 

Senator SCHUMER. Yes, thanks. I think this is a great discussion 

and I appreciate your leading it. 

But the big conundrum we have in our financial system is it has 

evolved, as the Chairman has said, away from just commercial 

banks. Systemic risk is far more interrelated to the relationships 

between these hundreds and thousands of entities. And the responsibility for systemic risk is chopped up in different pieces. I mean, 

Bear Stearns is a classic. The authority involved for systemic risk 

was the Fed. But the authority that looked at Bear Stearns was 

the SEC. And it sort of did not add up. 

And so I, for one, have been pretty strongly of the view a single 

regulator, particularly in regards to systemic risk, but in general 

makes sense. Or at least more unified regulation. And at least to 

my way of thinking, and I could not agree with you more, Mr. 


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Chairman, to take this aspect, which is looking at the GSEs and 

then bootstrap it and say we should do it for everybody would be 

a mistake. 

On the other hand, when the GSEs present such systemic risk 

problems, you need somebody to do this. And you know, I do not 

think OFHEO, for instance, has the ability to look at the systemic 

problems that the GSEs would cause given their—so I do not—I 

think if we took your admonition in mind, be careful that this does 

not bootstrap it to everybody, but did not shy away from doing it— 

because I think we do have to do it with the problems the GSEs 

had—I think that may be a way to cut this knot as opposed to just 

not doing it at all. 

Chairman DODD. Because the point we have made in the strong 

regulator is because today we have not rationalized this. We have 

HUD involved. We have had obviously OFHEO involved. We have 

others. So to try to get some consolidation with that strong regulator that is in the bill that passed the Senate last week was specifically designed to do this. 

What I am leery of a little bit is having done that with this legislation we now begin to bifurcate it once again at a critical moment 

when we need exactly what you have said over and over again 

today, that very strong regulator here. 

So that is the point I wanted to make. But this has been worthwhile. 

Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman DODD. We will end on this note. 

Senator SHELBY. I do not know who will be the answer. Will the 

Fed be the answer here? But it is obvious just from our discussion 

here that more taxpayer exposure, I think, brings about and necessitates more taxpayer protection. We are potentially layering taxpayer resources on top of massive systemic risk. And how do we 

balance that? How do we go? I think the Chairman will, I am sure, 

hold a lot of hearings on this. 

Chairman DODD. We will do that, as well. 

This has been very worthwhile. Again, my compliments to all of 

you for your involvement and your sharing some thoughts. 

We are going to be in very close touch with you now the next 

couple of days here. We have got to make some decisions that will 

be very, very important. 

So I say to my Committee members as well, and your staffs here, 

we need a lot of work on this over the next few days. 

Thank you all very much. 

[Whereupon, at 2:46 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 

[Prepared statements and responses to written questions supplied for the record follow:] 


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RESPONSE TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR SHELBY 

FROM CHRISTOPHER COX 

PROTECTING ANY FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INVESTMENT IN THE GSES

Chairman Cox, presently Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are exempt from the registration and disclosure provisions of the Federal 

Securities Laws. 

Q.1. If the Federal government purchases GSE debt or stock as set 

forth under Secretary Paulson’s proposal, should the exemptions 

for the GSEs be removed so that U.S. taxpayers have the full protection of the Securities Laws? 

A.1. Whether or not the Federal government purchases GSE debt 

or stock, it is my longstanding recommendation to the Congress 

that both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be required to become public companies essentially like any other private entity. I 

believe this will benefit the strength and liquidity of the market by 

ensuring the timely availability of information for investors and 

other market participants and help to restore overall market confidence in these entities. 

CORPORATE GOVERNANCE

Chairman Cox, you have testified previously to this Committee 

about the corporate governance issues raised by sovereign wealth 

fund investments in U.S. companies. By an unfortunate turnofevents, today we are talking about investments in U.S. companies 

by the U.S. government. 

Q.2. Would you please discuss the problems raised by government 

investments in private corporations? 

A.2. Neither our market economy nor the authorities given to government agencies to regulate it are premised on government ownership of commercial enterprises. Government’s role as regulator 

necessitates an arms-length relationship to commercial entities and 

their competitive concerns. Conflicts of interest necessarily arise 

when government is both the regulator and the regulated. Rules 

that might be rigorously applied to private sector competitors may 

not necessarily be applied in the same way to the sovereign who 

makes the rules and whose interest becomes, in part, protecting its 

own investment. Use of taxpayer funds also heightens demands for 

political scrutiny, which further weakens the independence of regulation that is normally a strength of our system. 

Q.3. What protections should be considered to address these problems in connection with any investments by the Treasury Department in Freddie and Fannie? 

A.3. Any government investment should be designed to minimize 

the duration of that investment. To encourage rather than discourage private sector investment in these entities, the government’s 

investments should be on the same terms as private investors, so 

that the goal of government intervention is not seen as threatening 

the interests of private investors. 


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FED-SEC MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING

Chairman Cox, the Fed and the SEC recently signed a memorandum of understanding regarding information sharing and coordinating oversight of primary dealers. In the agreement, the SEC 

and Fed agreed to cooperate with each other in setting capital requirements for primary dealers. The Federal Securities Laws, however, confer on the SEC alone the authority to regulate the capital 

requirements of all broker-dealers. 

Q.4. Chairman Cox, would you please explain why the SEC considered it necessary to relinquish its authority over the regulation of 

broker-dealers? 

A.4. The SEC has not relinquished any authority over the regulation of broker-dealers. The SEC-Federal Reserve Board Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) which was signed on July 7, 

2008, explicitly states that nothing in the MOU modifies in any 

way the ability and responsibility of the Commission to enforce its 

statutes and regulations. (Article II, Paragraph 4) The Federal Reserve likewise retains all of its authority. The MOU clearly states 

that the SEC is the supervisor of the Consolidated Supervised Entities. The MOU is aimed, rather, at cooperation among regulators. 

Q.5. Does conferring authority on both the Fed and the SEC for the 

regulation of primary dealers risk increasing the costs of regulation 

and make it difficult to hold regulators accountable for their oversight of primary dealers? 

A.5. Primary dealers are banks and broker-dealers that trade in 

U.S. Government securities with the Federal Reserve Bank of New 

York These banks and broker-dealers are regulated under the same 

regulatory regime as other similarly constituted financial institutions (some as CSEs, and some as ANCHCs). There is no regulatory regime applicable solely to primary dealers since the disbandment in 1992 of the Federal Reserve’s dealer surveillance unit. 

For these reasons, there is no increased regulatory cost or particular accountability issues raised by these firms’ primary dealer 

status. 


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RESPONSE TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR TESTOR 

FROM CHRISTOPHER COX 

At an April 3, 2008 hearing, you told me that if market manipulation or insider trading played a role in the rapid demise of Bear 

Stearns, ‘‘The rumors surrounding the activity you described are 

too big to miss, and our Enforcement Division is very active for a 

number of reasons.’’ While I understand that this is a law enforcement issue, I hope this matter will be resolved promptly. 

Q.1. Would you care to update the Committee on any proceedings 

the SEC is undertaking in this situation? 

A.1. On July 13, the Commission announced that the SEC and 

other securities regulators are conducting sweep examinations 

aimed at the prevention of the intentional spreading of false information intended to manipulate securities prices. The examinations 

are being conducted by the SEC’s Office of Compliance Inspections 

and Examinations, as well as the Financial Industry Regulatory 

Authority, Inc. and New York Stock Exchange Regulation, Inc. The 

sweeps include both broker-dealers and hedge fund advisers. And 

on April 24, the Commission brought its first-ever case of securities 

fraud and market manipulation for intentionally spreading false 

rumors. 

Q.2. With your recent actions to limit certain types of short selling 

on major financial firms, do you believe that types of short selling 

may have played a role in distorting the market over the past few 

weeks? Did it possibly play a role in the demise of Bear Stearns 

leading up to its March 2008 merger with JP Morgan Chase? 

A.2. The Commission’s staff is currently preparing a detailed analysis of the events surrounding the distressed sale of Bear Stearns 

to JPMorgan Chase. That analysis is looking at the full range 

offactors including the role played by market rumors, novations in 

the over-the-counter derivatives markets, short sales, and general 

conditions in the credit markets. That study has not yet reached 

any conclusions. 


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