OZPARTIvltNT Oi 

TRANSPORWiON 

THE OFFICE OF HEARINGS WITH THE i.-QCKbl OPERATIONS 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

IN THE MATTER OF: ) ^^"0^0 2^ P 1^55 

) FDMS NO. FAA-2011-1009 

QUENTON T. BROWN ) •.••'' • 

1220 L. St. NW #600 

Washington, D.C. 20005 

Wednesday, 

December 7, 2011 

The parties met, pursuant to the notice, at 

1:33 p.m. 

BEFORE: HONORABLE J. E. SULLIVAN 

Administrative Law Judge 

APPEARANCES BY TELEPHONE: 

For the Complainant: 

MARK G. CAMACO, Esquire 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

Central Region ACE-7 

901 Locust, Room 506 

Kansas City, Missouri 64106-2641 

TEL: (816) 329-3765 

FAX: (816)329-3771 

For the Respondent: 

QUENTON T. BROWN, Pro Se 

2440 Woodwind Trial 

Melbourne, Florida 32935(321) 594-8501 

c 

DEC 2 0 2011 

HEARING DOCKET 

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1 PROCEEDING S 

2 (1:33 p.m.) 

3 THE CLERK: Mr. Brown? 

4 MR. BROWN: Hi. How are you? 

5 THE CLERK: And the court reporter, are you 

6 there? 

7 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, I am. 

8 THE CLERK: Okay. Judge Sullivan is on the 

9 line. Go ahead, please. 

10 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Mays. Mr. Court 

11 Reporter, could you please identify yourself by name 

12 for me, please? 

13 MR. BROWN: Quenton Brown. 

14 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 

15 THE COURT: Mr. Court Reporter, could you 

16 identify yourself by name, please? 

17 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, Your Honor, it's 

18 Kyle Johnson. 

19 THE COURT: Thank you. And Mr. Johnson, do 

20 you need a volume check with anyone on the staff 

21 before we go on record? 

22 THE COURT REPORTER: I have been able to 

2 3 hear everybody fine so far, Your Honor. 

24 THE COURT: Okay. I'm getting a little bit 

25 of an echo. Is there somebody who has a speaker 

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1 turned on besides myself? 

2 THE COURT REPORTER: Not I, Judge. 

3 MR. BROWN: I do. I do. 

4 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Brown, if you could 

5 pick up your headset so that we don't have too many 

6 speaker phones, that would be helpful. Can you do 

7 that now for me, please? 

8 MR. BROWN: Yes. 

9 THE COURT: Okay. That sounds better. Mr. 

10 Court Reporter, are you ready? 

11 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, Your Honor. 

12 THE COURT: We're on the record in the 

13 matter of Quenton T. Brown. This is an FAA docket 

14 number that has yet to be assigned. I do have a n FDMS 

15 number which is FAA-2011-1009. Today is Wednesday, 

16 December 7, 2011, and the parties have convened by 

17 telephone for a second litigation scheduling 

18 conference. The Federal Aviation Administration here 

19 and out referred to as the FAA is represented by its 

20 attorney of record, Mr. Mark G. Comacho. The 

21 Respondent, Quenton.T. Brown, is representing himself 

22 at this time. I'll note that this is the second 

23 litigation scheduling conference. 

24 The first conference occurred on Tuesday, 

25 November 22, 2011, at which time Mr. Brown was not 

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1 present and there was no explanation for his absence. 

2 Why don't we do a couple different things before we 

3 start talking about the merits of the case for 

4 litigation scheduling? Mr. Brown, I'm going to turn 

5 to you first, sir. Are you intending to represent 

6 yourself in these proceedings or are you in the 

7 process of hiring an attorney or a helpful 

8 representative to assist you? 

9 MR. BROWN: I'm representing myself. Your 

10 Honor. 

11 THE COURT: Okay. Do you have any 

12 particular experience in representing yourself before 

13 the Court either at this Court or some other court? 

14 Do you ha\'e some experience going into court and 

15 making your wishes known? 

16 MR. BROWN: No, I have no experience with 

17 court, Your Honor. 

18 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's start first 

19 and foremost with do you understand why we've convened 

20 today for this conference? 

21 MR. BROWN: Yes, I do. Your Honor. 

22 THE COURT: Okay. Is there some explanation 

23 that you have for why you did not appear at the 

24 conference that was held in late November, on November 

25 22, 2011? 

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1 MR. BROWN: I couldn't attend. Your Honor. 

2 THE COURT: Why not? 

3 MR. BROWN: I didn't have the money to go. 

4 THE COURT: Well, you're on the phone right 

5 now. It usually doesn't cost money to appear from 

6 home on your telephone. We had a litigation 

7 scheduling conference convened by telephone on 

8 Tuesday, November 22, 2011. We called your phone 

9 number, and no body answered. Do you have any idea 

10 why you did not pick up the phone and attend? 

11 MR. BROWN: I had to work the previous night 

12 on the night shift at my job. 

13 THE COURT: Okay, and where were you on 

14 Tuesday, November 22nd, 2011 at ten in the morning? 

15 MR. BROWN: It was my fault completely, Your 

16 Honor. 

17 THE COURT: I understand that you didn't 

18 show up. I'm wondering where you were, what happened. 

19 Can you explain to the Court why you missed a court 

20 date? 

21 MR. BROWN: In honor of the Court, Your 

22 Honor, it's completely my fault. I should have 

23 attended. 

24 THE COURT: Okay. 

25 MR. BROWN: So it doesn't matter --

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1 THE COURT: Well, it does matter because I'm 

2 asking you, and when the Court asks you a question, 

3 you're supposed to answer it. 

4 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

5 THE COURT: So where were you? What 

6 happened? 

7 MR. BROWN: I worked the night shift at my 

8 job that previous night. Your Honor. I think it was 

9 two nights straight, and I didn't get any sleep the 

10 previous night, Your Honor. 

11 THE COURT: Okay, so it sounds to me like 

12 you're telling me that you were asleep at the time of 

13 the conference? 

14 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

15 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. In the 

16 future, Mr. Brown, you need to wake up and attend the 

17 conference. 

18 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. When the Court holds a 

2 0 conference, you are obligated to appear. If you 

21 cannot appear for whatever reason, then it's up to you 

22 to find someone on your behalf or to contact the 

23 Court's assistant, Ms. Mays who you've talked to I 

24 think a little bit, ahead of time that you need to 

25 change the date and time. 

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1 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

2 THE COURT: And the Court can always assist 

3 you when those are unavoidable problems. But most of 

4 the time when you are representing yourself and you 

5 appear before the Court, you show up for all your 

6 court dates and you show up prepared, so just so that 

7 you know. 

8 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

9 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 

10 THE COURT: Secondly, my assistant, Ms. 

11 Mays, advised me that she did talk to you on November 

12 22nd, 2011, a little later that day, and she said -- I 

13 had asked her to make sure that we had your correct 

14 address because there was some information provided to 

15 this Court by Mr. Camacho on November 22nd, 2011 that 

16 we might not have the correct address for you, and I 

17 wanted to make sure that we did have the right 

18 address. 

19 MR. BROWN: What is the address, Your Honor? 

20 THE COURT: According to Ms. Mays, when she 

21 spoke to you on November 22nd, 2011, you confirmed or 

22 agreed that we did have the correct mailing address 

23 for you, and I just want to make sure that that's 

24 still correct. 

25 We have your address as 622 West Miller 

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1 Street, M-I-L-L-E-R, Orlando, Florida 32805-4502; is 

2 that correct? 

3 MR. BROWN: No, it's not correct. Your 

4 Honor. 

5 THE COURT: It is not correct? What is your 

6 correct mailing address, sir? 

7 MR. BROWN: 2440 --

8 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. 

9 Could you speak up, please? 

10 MR. BROWN: It's 2440 Woodwind Trail. 

11 THE COURT: Could you spell the street name 

12 for me, please? 

13 MR. BROWN: W-O-O-D-T-R-A-I-L. 

14 THE COURT: Okay, I'm going to try it. It's 

15 2440 --

16 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

17 THE COURT: And then is it Wood Rail --

18 MR. BROWN: It's Woodwind Trail. 

19 THE COURT: -- W-O-O-D R-A-I-L? 

20 MR. BROWN: No. It's Woodwind Trail, Your 

21 Honor, I'm sorry. 

22 THE COURT: Could you spell the street name 

23 again for me, please? 

24 MR. BROWN: It's W-O-O-D T-R-A-I-L. 

25 THE COURT: Okay, Wood Trail, with a T as in 

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1 Tom? And is that a road, a street, an avenue? 

2 MR. BROWN: I'm sorry. I said Wood Trail, I 

3 spelled Wood Trial. It's Woodwind Trail. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. 

5 MR. BROWN: That would be it. Sorry. 

6 THE COURT: Spell Woodwind and then spell 

7 Trail, please. 

8 MR. BROWN: W-O-O-D-W-I-N-D T-R-A-I-L. 

9 THE COURT: And is that two separate words, 

10 Woodwind and then Trail? 

11 MR. BROWN: No, it's one word. I mean, it's 

12 two separate words, but, you know Woodwind is one 

13 word. Your Honor. 

14 THE COURT: Okay, and is that Woodwind 

15 Trail, is there a street, avenue, circle, or 

16 boulevard, or anything like that after that? 

17 MR. BROWN: Yes, and it's in Melbourne, 

18 Florida. Melbourne is spelled M-E-L-B-O-U-R-N-E, 

19 Florida. 

20 THE COURT: And what's the zip code? 

21 MR. BROWN: It's 32935. 

22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Could you repeat 

23 that, please? 

24 MR. BROWN: It's 32935, Your Honor. 

25 THE COURT: You're speaking a little too 

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1 quickly for me, sir. Could you repeat that and say it 

2 a little slower? 

3 MR. BROWN; It's 32935. 

4 THE COURT: I'll repeat that to make sure I 

5 have it correctly. 32935? 

6 MR. BROWN: Yes. 

7 THE COURT: Okay. So I have 244 0 Woodwind 

8 Trial, Melbourne, Florida 32935; is that correct or do 

9 I need anything else behind that? 

10 MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. 

11 THE COURT: Okay. So I don't have an 

12 apartment number, or a street, or boulevard, or 

13 anything else that's attached to that address? 

14 MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. 

15 THE COURT: Okay. How long has this been 

16 your address of record? 

17 MR. BROWN: I mean, I've had that address 

18 for about I think six months. 

19 THE COURT: Was your previous address the 

20 address that I gave earlier, the Orlando address? 

21 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

22 THE COURT: Do you still receive mail at 

23 that address? 

24 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

25 THE COURT: Which is the address that you 

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1 use most frequently to obtain mail? 

2 MR. BROWN: Well, now it's this one. It's 

3 this one now. 

4 THE COURT: And this one meaning the 

5 Melbourne Florida address? 

6 MR. BROWN: I think I have another -- before 

7 I stayed here, Your Honor, I stayed at an address 

8 before that that I don't think was brought before the 

9 Court. 

10 THE COURT: Okay, well, let me ask this a 

11 little differently. When did you start -- which 

12 address -- as I understand it, the Melbourne, Florida, 

13 address is the one that you want to use from now on 

14 for all mailing; is that correct? 

15 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. Yes. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. But according to what 

17 you've just said to me, and correct me if I am wrong, 

18 you're still receiving mail at the Orlando, Florida, 

19 address? 

20 MR. BROWN: I think some of my mail is still 

21 going there. Your Honor. I have to pick up my mail. 

22 THE COURT: Okay. Do you pick up your mail 

23 there, or is it getting forwarded to you by the U.S. 

24 Post Office? 

25 MR. BROWN: It's not getting forwarded. Your 

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1 

2 

3 

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6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

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13 

14 

15 

16 

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18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

Honor. That's what it is. It's not getting 

forwarded. 

THE COURT: Okay. Did you receive a copy of 

the order that this Court mailed out to you on 

November 23rd, 2011, that's entitled on the first page 

order setting second litigation scheduling conference? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. In this particular order, 

it gives you some direction. Did you read this order? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Do you have the order in front 

of you? 

MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Where is it? 

MR. BROWN: It's at that address. Your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: I'm sorry, which address? 

MR. BROWN: That previous address. 

THE COURT: The Orlando, Florida, address? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Why would it be there if, in 

fact, you don't live there any more? 

MR. BROWN: Well, I still go over there to 

get the mail. 

THE COURT: Okay. Typically for people who 

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1 are appearing on their own behalf, one of your jobs if 

2 you decide to represent yourself as you're doing 

3 today, one of your jobs is to always have all of the 

4 paperwork that is being generated or created in this 

5 litigation right in front of you as we speak. 

6 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

7 THE COURT: Usually what people do is they 

8 get a little manilla envelope or a file folder and 

9 they keep all of their papers in that one place so 

10 that they know exactly where they are. 

11 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

12 THE COURT: When you don't keep your 

13 paperwork and you don't have it in front of you, you 

14 are not helping yourself very well because then you 

15 can't answer the Court's questions and you cannot 

16 meaningfully engage in a dialogue when the Court has 

17 information to provide to you. 

18 So for example, in the November 23rd, 2000 

19 order setting second litigation scheduling conference, 

20 it directed you to contact Ms. Mays, my assistant here 

21 in Washington, D.C. and get information if you needed 

22 it on how to file a written answer to the allegations 

23 complained in the FAA's Notice of Complaint, and you 

24 haven't done that. 

25 If you read this order as you say you have. 

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1 is there some reason why you have not complied yet 

2 with that direct order from the Court? 

3 MR.. BROWN: No, I have none. Your Honor, I 

4 apologize. 

5 THE COURT: Okay. Let me ask you this, Mr. 

6 Brown, and then I'm going to turn to Mr. Camacho. But 

7 I'm still with you, Mr. Brown. 

8 MR. BROWN: Thank you. Your Honor. 

9 THE COURT: What is it that you ideally 

10 would like to see happen in this litigation? 

11 Everybody has, you know, their best option up there, 

12 and then they have, you know. Plan B and Plan C if the 

13 first option doesn't work. What's your greatest hope 

14 for the outcome in this litigation? Do you have any 

15 thoughts about that? 

16 MR. BROWN: I hope that everything gets 

17 resolved. Your Honor, and in a timely fashion. Your 

18 Honor. 

19 THE COURT: Well, I think I can guarantee 

20 you that that will happen. That's part of what I'm 

21 here for. Have you had a chance to talk privately 

22 with Mr. Camacho about the allegations that the FAA 

23 has made and whether or not there's a possibility that 

24 the two of you could resolve it without going to 

25 trial? Have you had a chance to do that yet? 

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1 I'm still with you, Mr. Brown. 

2 MR. BROWN: Okay. I'm thinking. Your Honor, 

3 yes. It's j ust, Your Honor, the price was too high. 

4 THE COURT: Okay, so you did have a chanc e 

5 to talk but you haven't reached any resolutions? 

6 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

7 THE COURT: Okay, and according to the 

8 record I have so far, the civil penalty that's 

9 requested in the Notice of Complaint is $11,000. Is 

10 that what you're talking about when you say the price 

11 is too high? 

12 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

13 THE COURT: Okay. Have you had a chance to 

14 talk with Mr. Camacho recently about reducing that 

15 particular penalty? 

16 MR. BROWN: I don't feel I should have to 

17 pay it. Your Honor. 

18 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you, 

19 sir. 

20 MR. BROWN: I don't feel I should have to 

21 pay it. Your Honor. 

22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I still couldn't 

23 hear you. I apparently have a poor phone line, but go 

24 ahead. 

25 MR. BROWN: I don't think I should have to 

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1 pay it, Your Honor. I feel I should not have to pay 

2 it. 

3 THE COURT: Okay, so you're in a position 

4 where you're saying the thing at least right now that 

5 you don't think you should pay anything; is that 

6 right? 

7 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

8 THE COURT: Okay. 

9 Mr. Comacho, let's turn to you, sir. Did 

10 you have a chance between November 22nd, 2011 and 

11 today's day, December 7th, 2011, to talk to Mr. Brown 

12 about this particular case ? 

13 MR. COMACHO: Yes, Judge. We talked about 

14 the case, but I have to admit that I did not get into 

15 the merits of the case nor did we talk about the 

16 potential settlement. What we talked about was issues 

17 concerning scheduling, discovery, hearing dates, 

18 things of that nature, and that was the primary focus 

19 of my side of the conversation. 

20 And then we sort of got to a certain point 

21 of understanding concerning substantively those 

22 aspects procedurally, and then we reached some tenet 

2 3 of agreement about how - - about those things such that 

24 we could come to you and say this is what we have 

25 agreed to if it's acceptable to you then, you know, if 

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1 you order it and implement it, we'11 go forward from 

2 there. 

3 THE COURT: Okay. Well, why don't you give 

4 me the highlights of that particular procedural 

5 discussion so that I can see whether that's going to 

6 be workable on my calendar or not. 

7 MR. COMACHO: Okay. 

8 THE COURT: And at least find -- now, did 

9 you reach any discussion or resolution about a 

10 proposed venue? 

11 MR. COMACHO: That we did not. First wee 

12 talked about discovery. 

13 THE COURT: Okaky. 

14 MR. COMACHO: We talked about at length the 

15 discovery. We agreed -- I stated to Mr. Brown that I 

16 did not believe this was a factually complicated 

17 matter and that sometimes 60 to 90 days is an 

18 acceptable norm for discovery, but perhaps 60 days 

19 would be more appropriate under this circumstance. He 

20 agreed, and we agreed to -- we came to an 

21 understanding that starting on January 1 if we run the 

22 clock for 60 days discovery, it could be concluded by 

2 3 the end of February. 

24 We then moved on to a hearing date, and --

2 5 THE COURT: Yeah, I'm going to stop you at 

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1 that point. Let me ask you this because this is going 

2 to lead me back to venue ultimately, Mr. Camacho. 

3 MR. COMACHO: Yes, Judge. 

4 THE COURT: What kind of witnesses does the 

5 FAA pplan at least at this point to call; how many --

6 MR. COMACHO: The witnesses that would be 

7 called would be predominantly the cabin crew members 

8 that were aboard the aircraft, and they are scattered 

9 around the country. 

10 THE COURT: And ca n you tell me how many of 

11 those people you think at this point you would like to 

12 identify? Is it three to five? 

13 MR. COMACHO: That are at least two that 

14 would be fact witnesses that would be in position to 

15 testify about what they saw and/or what they 

16 experienced directy. 

17 THE COURT: Okay. 

18 MR. COMACHO: And then I believe there's a 

19 fact witness who was aboard the aircraft. I'm not 

20 certain - - forgive me. I didn't go through the 

21 factual renditions of those but based on the police 

22 report who would be, shall we say, disinterested fact 

23 witnesses that were aboard the aircraft, and I would 

24 have to locate them. I don't have that on the top of 

25 my head. And that would constitute the presentation 

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1 of testimony evidence. 

2 THE COURT: So just so that I'm clear, 

3 you're looking at two, possibly three cabin crew 

4 members - -

5 MR. COMACHO: Yes. 

6 THE COURT: -- witnesses. You have a 

7 possible one , maybe more, passenger witnesses that 

8 were on the airplane? 

9 MR. COMACHO: I think there's just one that 

10 I would seek to call. 

11 THE COURT: And then I know based on the 

12 notice of complaint that I read that there was some 

13 police contact once the plane arrived at the gate. 

14 Are you planning to call any of the arresting 

15 officers? 

16 MR. COMACHO: At this juncture, I actually 

17 had not considered the arresting officers because they 

18 wouldn't be fact witnesses and I do not know that the 

19 interview resulted in any kind of incriminating 

20 statement such that the police officer would want to 

21 testify about that statement, so I would probably seek 

22 to introduce the police report. 

23 THE COURT: Okay, well, I'm just asking so I 

24 know. 

25 MR. COMACHO: Yeah. My sense of it at this 

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1 juncture is that I really am kind of vacillating about 

2 that particular aspect. Usually when 1 call police 

3 officers, they're somewhat directly involved in the 

4 event or in some way can lend some additional relevant 

5 material. 

6 This is all after-the-fact hearsay. I don't 

7 think that's the best evidence, quite frankly. 

8 THE COURT: It's just a question for my --

9 MR. COMACHO: Yeah. I would not probably 

10 seek to have a police officer testify about the events 

11 that happened after the fact. 

12 THE COURT: I'm just asking you because I 

13 have to get a sense of how much time to reserve for 

14 this hearing. 

15 MR. COMACHO: Uh-huh. 

16 THE COURT: So as I understand it, at this 

17 point, the FAA is looking at potentially calling about 

18 four witnesses? 

19 MR. COMACHO: Yes. 

2 0 THE COURT: Okay. And then what kind of 

21 discovery are you thinking of seeking from Mr. Brown 

22 between now and the time of trial? Are you thinking 

23 of taking his deposition, sending him 

24 interrogatories --

25 MR. COMACHO: I would send him -- I'm sorry. 

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1 I didn't mean to overstep you. I thought you were 

2 done. 

3 THE COURT: Yes, asking me to produce 

4 documents. What kind of discovery tools are you going 

5 to be requesting of him? 

6 MR. COMACHO: I'm going to use a 

7 standardized discovery request seeking through simple 

8 interrogatories information concerning what his 

9 defenses are, who will be the witnesses that will be 

10 called, what their expected testmony is, and any 

11 documents that he might have to support whatever 

12 positions he takes in response to the interrogatories. 

13 I just need to find out who's going to testify to 

14 what. 

15 THE COURT: Okay. 

16 MR. COMACHO: I'm not seeking -- I would not 

17 Seek at this juncture in several penalty cases, 

18 normally I do not seek to take the deposition of a 

19 Respondent, not in this kind of case. 

2 0 THE COURT: Okay. Can you think of any 

21 other discoveyr that you would need to talk about 

22 tdoay? 

23 MR. COMACHO: I believe -- it is my practice 

24 and has been for the past 30 years that on the heals 

25 of those type of responses, I might seek to submit a 

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1 request for admissions from the respondent depending 

2 on what kind of responses I get to the 

3 interrogatories. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. And in terms of venue, 

5 I'm going to turn back to venue. Do you have any 

6 proffer of venue that the FAA would like to suggest? 

7 MR. COMACHO: The events happened, 

8 obviously, while the aircraft was airborne, so my 

9 sense of it is that when the aircraft was stopped and 

10 he deplaned and was taken into custody in St. Louis, 

11 that that would be - - that for me, given where we are 

12 and that this is how we got the jurisdiction here in 

13 this office for prosecuting this case that that's 

14 where the hearing should be held. 

15 In civil penalty cases traditionally, I have 

16 sought to have that occur, the venue set at the point 

17 where the individual is taken off the aircraft for any 

18 number of reasons. In some instances the driving 

19 force behind that is the fact that the police officers 

2 0 do obtain some kind of statements against interest 

21 and/or corroborating supporting evicence, and they 

22 wouldl readily available to testify. 

23 But in addition, it is physcially located 

24 within our central region where our offices are 

25 located. 

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1 THE COURT: Where is your office located, 

2 sir? 

3 MR. COMACHO: We are located in Kansas City, 

4 Missouri, Judge. 

5 THE COURT; And how far from St. Louis, 

6 Missouri do you work? 

7 MR. COMACHO: It's a four and-a-half hour 

8 drive. 

9 THE COURT: At this current time, are you 

10 aware of the physical location of any of the cabin 

11 crew or passenger witness that you are thinking of 

12 calling? 

13 MR. COMACHO: I would not be without taking 

14 a look at the police report, and I cannot be 

15 responsive without shooting from the hip, and I don't 

16 have that information readily available to me. 

17 THE COURT: Okay. How long based on your 

18 best estimate do you think this trial will need to 

19 take given the fact that you have identified a minimum 

20 of three to four witnesses and that Mr. Brown would 

21 also be testifying? 

22 MR. COMACHO: One business day, less than on 

23 full business day. I would be surprised if it went an 

24 entire buisness day. 

25 THE COURT: Trials have been surprising for 

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1 many reasons. 

2 MR. COMACHO: I understand. I can put six 

3 witnesses on in four hours, so I can submit 16/2 0 

4 exhibits within that period of time. Factually, I'm 

5 just going on my experience, so I'm suggesting to you, 

6 Judge, that I can get the job done. But I could do 

7 that. In less than four hours, I could get these 

8 witnesses on and I don't think there's very many 

9 documents that need to be submitted in support of 

10 this, but in any event that would be my very best 

11 estimate. 

12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Anything else 

13 that you'd like to say on behalf of your client before 

14 I turn to Mr. Brown? 

15 MR. COMACHO: Because -- and you raised a 

16 good issue, and that is with regard to potential 

17 settlement. I had, to be honest, I've now come to see 

18 and understand better that Mr. Brown works in the 

19 evenings. I've left various voice mail messages for 

20 him in the past and tried to reach him closer to what 

21 I thought would be after normal work hours so that 

22 there wouldn't be a potential conflict for him. 

23 I've got a listing of different dates and 

24 left voice mail messages for him, and I now see that 

25 on one of those occasions I even reached him while he 

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1 was at work. 

2 But long and short is I've not really sat 

3 down with him one on one during a period of time when 

4 he was not at work to discuss the potential settlement 

5 of the case. 

6 However, today I heard that his position 

7 is -- or at least it appears at this point that his 

8 position is that he believes he should not be held 

9 responsible for the actions as alleged in the 

10 complaint. 

11 You know, he and I can talk about that and 

12 we can perhaps work our way through to some resolution 

13 notwithstanding that currently stated position. So 

14 that has not yet been explored. 

15 I would say that I think -- I not think, I 

16 know, I am duty bound to at least explore that with 

17 him and see if we can reach some resolution. 

18 Certainly it's going to be more cost effective for 

19 everybody, but more importantly, sometimes the parties 

2 0 can just get there on their own. 

21 THE COURT: Right. I understand that and 

22 I'm certainly going to give you and Mr. Brown ample 

23 opportunity to do that after this phone call is 

24 Concluded. 

2 5 Mr. Brown, I'm going to turn to you next. 

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1 sir. 

2 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

3 THE COURT: You've heard some of the 

4 questions that I've asked Mr. Comacho, and I'm going 

5 to be asking the same questions of you. So my first 

6 question to you is how many witnesses do you think 

7 you're planning to call on your own behalf in 

8 challenging this notice of complaint? 

9 MR. BROWN: I'm the only witness. Your 

10 Honor. 

11 THE COURT: So you'll be calling yourself. 

12 MR. BROWN: Right. 

13 THE COURT: How long do you think it would 

14 take you to comfortably talk about what happened on 

15 the plane that lead to you getting this kind of 

16 complaint filed? Do you think it would take 10 

17 minutes, an hour, two hours? How long do you think it 

18 would take to tell your side of the story? 

19 MR. BROWN: About 10 minutes. Your Honor. 

20 THE COURT: Okay. If you represent yourself 

21 as you say you are going to, it would be up to you to 

22 cross-examine witnesses they call to --

23 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

24 THE COURT: -- to describe what they 

25 perceived happened on the plane ride that resulted in 

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1 this complaint. And cross-examination is often more 

2 difficult than it looks when you see it on TV or in 

3 the movies. 

4 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

5 THE COURT: It's not impossible for someone 

6 who doesn't have training such as yourself to engage 

7 in cross-examination, but it takes a lot of 

8 preparation. 

9 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

10 THE COURT: How many questions do you think 

11 you might have to ask these folks that Mr. Camacho has 

12 generally identified, these two members and this 

13 passenger? Have you given any thought to that? 

14 MR. BROWN: It's all based on the evidence 

15 Your Honor. There won't be any questions. 

16 THE COURT: Well, you have a right to ask 

17 these folks questions about their testimony. So you 

18 may want to think about that a little bit. It's an 

19 opportunity for you to explore the evidence being 

20 presented to this Court, so it'll be something for you 

21 to be working on between now and whatever trial date 

22 we set. 

23 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

24 THE COURT: Now, when I talk about 

25 discovery, do you know what I'm talking about? 

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1 MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. I've only seen 

2 it on television. 

3 THE COURT: Let me give you a brief 

4 explanation. In the time period between now and the 

5 actual hearing or trial if you want to use that term, 

6 there's a period of time when the parties work 

7 together and they try and learn about each other's 

8 position and learn about the strengths and weakenesses 

9 of the case. 

10 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

11 THE COURT: And we call that period of time 

12 the discovery period, and that's when you would have a 

13 chance to discover more information from Mr. Camacho 

14 about his side of the case just as Mr. Camacho would 

15 have an opportunity to learn more about your side of 

16 the case. So you're discovering things about each 

17 others' perceptions. 

18 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

19 THE COURT: Mr. Camacho has said that he 

20 thinks it will take between 60 and 90 days to 

21 comfortably discover what he needs to know from you to 

22 help him prepare for trial, and in order to discover 

23 more information from you, he has talked a little bit 

24 about sending you what's called interrogatories which 

25 is a very fancy name for written questions. 

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1 He wants to send you a series of written 

2 questions that ask you to think very carefully about 

3 what happened and then to reply in detail about what 

4 you think or recall happening on the plane. 

5 There are time limits for you to answer 

6 these kinds of questions. If you don't answer them 

7 completely, he can thne ask the Court to deem certain 

8 facts, certain pieces of information, as admitted by 

9 you and that means that you, basically, don't dispute 

10 his perception of what happened. 

11 So it's very important if Mr. Camacho sends 

12 you these written quetions that you respondent and 

13 answer them clearly and completely. Does that make 

14 sense to you? 

15 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. You also have a right to 

17 engage in a learning process with Mr. Camacho about 

18 his case and about his perceptions, and there are many 

19 diffferent tools that you could utilize prior to the 

20 hearing date to learn more. But because you're 

21 representing yourself, that means that you have to put 

22 on your attorney hat and do a lot of reserch, I think, 

23 in order to make sure that you take advantage of those 

24 opportunities. 

25 One of the things that you can do, of 

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1 course, is that you can send written questions to Mr. 

2 Camacho's witnesses through Mr. Camacho. You can 

3 actually depose his witnesses, and that means that you 

4 would hire a court reporter like the one we have 

5 wokring on this conference today and set up a time and 

6 a place that's mutually convenient, hopefully, where 

7 those witnesses would appear and you could ask them 

8 questions and have a court-reported record. That's 

9 very complicated to do, but it's one of the tools that 

10 you have available to you. 

11 There are other ways to participate in 

12 discovery. You can do many different things, and many 

13 of them are identified in our code of Federal 

14 regulations which is the primary source of guidance 

15 that we use when we look at how to go about getting 

16 ready for a trial. Do you have a law library near 

17 your home? 

18 MR. BROWN: I don't know of one in the 

19 vicinity. Your Honor. 

20 THE COURT: Okay. I'm not quite familiar 

21 with Melbourne, Florida. What is the next biggest 

22 city near Melbourne, Florida? 

2 3 MR. BROWN: Orlando, Florida, Your Honor. 

24 THE COURT: Okay. How far away is it by 

25 car? 

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1 MR. BROWN: About 80 miles. Your Honor. 

2 THE COURT: Okay, when you go to work at 

3 night, are you driving towards Orlando, Florida, or 

4 away from it? 

5 MR. BROWN: I recently moved. Your Honor, s o 

6 I wouldn't be driving -- I used to drive at my 

7 previous address, it used to take me about an hour 

8 and-a-half. 

9 THE COURT: Okay. Maybe I asked the 

10 question inartfully. Are you currently living and 

11 working in Melbourne, Florida --

12 MR. BROWN: That's correct. 

13 THE COURT: Or is your job located 

14 elsewhere? 

15 MR. BROWN: My job is in Melbourne, Florida, 

16 Your Honor. 

17 THE COURT: Okay. Are you able to drive a 

18 car at this point, or do you not have a license? 

19 MR. BROWN: I have a car, Your Honor. 

2 0 THE COURT: Okay. Do you also have a 

21 driver's license? 

2 2 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

23 THE COURT: Okay. In Orlando, Florida, I 

24 would suspect that they have a courthouse, and it may 

25 be that you have a courthouse in Melbourne as well. 

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1 If you go on line and Google law library out of 

2 Melbourne, Florida, you'll find out pretty quickly. 

3 Do you have access to the computer and to 

4 the internet? 

5 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

6 THE COURT: Okay. Well, that might make 

7 things very easy for you. The reason I think that it 

8 would be helpful for you to go to a law library is 

9 because then you could have a librarian help you find 

10 different rules and regulations that you could read 

11 that would provide you some guidance about different 

12 discovery tools that you could potentially utilize. 

13 Do you have a pen and paper with you by any 

14 chance? 

15 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to give you 

17 what's called a legal citation, and this will get you 

18 started. You can either go to a law library in 

19 person, you could also Google this. This citation is 

20 to a volume of a book and then a chapter and section 

21 in a law book. 

22 It starts off with a number. The number is 

23 49, and the letters C as in cat, F as in Frank, R as 

24 in Robert, and then the numbers are 386.38. 

25 And then you can read several pages after 

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1 that, so it will be 49 C.F.R. 386.38 - 49 C.F.R. 

2 386.53. That's the portion of the Code of Federal 

3 Regulation which is what C.F.R. stands for that talks 

4 about all the different discovery tools that are 

5 available to both you and Mr. Camacho to utilize to 

6 get ready for trial. 

7 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

8 THE COURT: And if you have trouble 

9 reading - - sometimes people do - - take a friend, or 

10 have a friend read it over with you. It's not too 

11 much reading, and it might prove to be helpful. 

12 A law librarian could also be helpful, I 

13 think, in- giving you some general understanding about 

14 what you're reading. 

15 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. Now, one of the things 

17 that you also want to reaad is the Notice of Complaint 

18 that the FAA has sent to you that basically talks 

19 about what they think happened on the plane that you 

20 took when you flew on Southwest Airlines on or before 

21 December 6th, 2010. 

22 And one of the thing sthat they say in here 

23 is that -- and this is on page three if you go to the 

24 complaint -- is that you violated a certain law, a 

25 safety law, and they call it Section 121.580. They 

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1 have that that was a law that you violated according 

2 to what they think happened. 

3 So you want to also look up that particular 

4 rule. And what I'm going to do -- sometimes the FAA 

5 provides a cop of that law in the Notice of Complaint, 

6 and sometimes they do not. So I'm just taking a look, 

7 and it doesn't look like it did. 

8 Mr. Camacho, hello? 

9 MR. COMACHO: I apologize. I had you on 

10 mute here. Go ahead. 

11 THE COURT: Mr. Camacho. 

12 MR. COMACHO: Ye s, Judge. 

13 THE COURT: I have what looks like to be a 

14 partial citation. Can you tell me the full citation 

15 for 121580? 

16 MR. COMACHO: When you tell me, are you 

17 talking about the citation per say in terms of where 

18 it comes from or what it reads? 

19 THE COURT: I don't have a complete legal 

20 citation to a section of the regulations that you say 

21 that Mr. Brown violated, so it's impossible for me to 

22 tell him how to look it up if I don't know where it 

23 comes from. 

24 MR. COMACHO: Understood, Judge. 

2 5 THE COURT: So --

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1 MR. COMACHO: Let me look at the book. I 

2 see what you're saying. My apologies. I think we put 

3 it in his notices originally and should have been 

4 transferred over in the same manner when my staff 

5 changed the notice to a complaint. Give me one 

6 second, please. 

7 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 

8 MR. COMACHO: Thank you. I want to say 4 9 

9 C.F.R. Section 121.580, but something in my head tells 

10 me that may be correct. I'm struggling with as I'm 

11 talking to you with the headset that the wire's 

12 getting caught and I -- it's 14 C.F.R., Judge. I 

13 apologize. 14 C.F.R. 121.580, 14 C.F.R. 

14 THE COURT: Okay, then I'm in the wrong --

15 Okay. Then I need to make some changes too since I've 

16 been using 49 C.F.R. and I should have been using 14 

17 C.F.R. 

18 So, Mr. Brown, I'm going to give you a 

19 different subsection for looking at the rules, and I 

20 apologize. I have a bunch of different law books in 

21 front of me, and I was just referring to the wrong 

22 one. 

2 3 MR. BROWN: Excuse me. Your Honor. I have 

24 that number also. Your Honor. 

25 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let me give you the 

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1 two best C.F.R.'s to look at. So number 14 is the 

2 volume of the book. C.F.R. stands for Code of Federal 

3 Regulation, Chapter 121, section 50 -- 580 is the law 

4 that the FAA says that you violated. And you'll want 

5 to look it up and read it and see what it says. 

6 There's one that talks about discovery and I 

7 gave you the wrong rule because I was looking at the 

8 wrong book, and I apologize. It's 14 C.F.R. 13.220, 

9 and then you should read all of the sections after 

10 that through 14 C.F.R. 13.231, and then you should 

11 read all of the sections after that through 14 C.F.R. 

12 13.231. Those are the discovery and hearing sections 

13 that you want to take a look at. 

14 What I'm going to do, because it's almost 

15 been an hour, is I'm going to set up a third 

16 litigation scheduling conference so that we can 

17 finalize some details. 

18 Prior to that, Mr. Brown, I need to have you 

19 file a written answer to the Notice of Complaint. And 

20 I also want to have you and Mr. Camacho talk privately 

21 with each other about this case which is part of what 

22 your attorney would do if you had an attorney, and 

23 talk about the pros and the cons, the strengths and 

24 the weaknesses to see if there's a possibility of 

25 settlement. 

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1 Now, I've heard you say that you don't think 

2 that you should have to pay anything, and that's 

3 certainly your plan A. Everybody has a plan A, and 

4 that sounds like plan A to me for you. You should 

5 also be looking at plan B and plan C just in case you 

6 don't get the ideal of what you want. 

7 If the FAA goes to trial and proves its 

8 case, you're looking at being fined, so there may be, 

9 if you think about it, there may be some wiggle room 

10 for you between zero and $11,000. I'm not saying that 

11 you have to settle. You certainly are not required to 

12 by any means, but it's something that your attorney if 

13 you had one would be looking at and counseling you 

14 about because there's a lot of room between zero and 

15 $11,000. 

16 And when you think about settlement, and you 

17 can talk to your friends and someone whose opinion you 

18 trust if you're not seeing counsel, there are things 

19 that one typically will consider in discussing 

20 settlement. 

21 One often will weigh the cost of actually 

22 going to trial against the cost of settling. So for 

2 3 example, let's assume just for the sake of argument 

24 that I set this case in St. Louis, Missouri, like the 

25 FAA attorney has requested. You might want to think 

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1 about how much it would cost you to travel from 

2 Melbourne, Florida, to St. Louis, Missouri, and back, 

3 and say well, you know, maybe I'd be willing to pay X 

4 amount because that's the amount I would pay to fly to 

5 and from the trial. 

6 Or you might think about, oh, how much work 

7 you would lose, for example, and say you know, I'm 

8 going to lose two or three days of work. That would 

9 cost me X amount, so I would be willing to pay X 

10 amount not to have to go, you know. Those are the 

11 kinds of things that people think about when they 

12 think about settling a case. 

13 That's not all that you would need to think 

14 about. You can measure all kinds of different things 

15 based on what is important to you. But those are just 

16 some examples, and I suspect that you've been in many 

17 different situations as an adult where you have to 

18 weigh and measure what's important to you and what you 

19 want to spend time and money on. 

20 So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask 

21 the two of you to take a look at your calendars, and 

22 I'm going to set up a third litigation scheduling 

23 conference for further discussion of setting all the 

24 due dates for both discovery cutoff and for setting a 

25 trial date. And at that point, we're also going to 

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1 talk about potentially where. 

2 And Mr. Brown, I think I saw something in an 

3 earlier piece of material. It was in your request for 

4 hearing where you wanted to have the hearing held in 

5 Orlando, Florida. 

6 Well, clearly I have two different 

7 viewpoints about where the hearing should be held, and 

8 one of the things that I need to look at if there's a 

9 dispute about the location of the hearing is where the 

10 majority of witnesses are going to be, how much it 

11 would cost to bring in witnesses who are out of town, 

12 how much it would cost for the parties to travel if 

13 they need to travel away from home, how long the trial 

14 will take, and so forth. So when we talk again, we'll 

15 be discussing part of that. 

16 Looking at your calendar, and I'm going to 

17 start with you Mr. Brown since you have a night shift 

18 that you go to, how long do you think it will take you 

19 to file a written answer answering each and every part 

2 0 of the Notice of Complaint which I presume you do 

21 have. Maybe that's a poor assumption. Do you still 

22 have a copy of the Notice of Complaint either in 

23 Melbourne, Florida or in your other location in 

24 Orlando, Florida? 

2 5 MR. BROWN: In Orlando, Florida, Your Honor. 

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1 THE COURT: Okay. How long do you think it 

2 will take you to write out a response to that notice 

3 of complaint? 

4 MR. BROWN: As soon a s I get it, I will 

5 write it. Your Honor. 

6 THE COURT: Okay, when are you next planning 

7 to go to Orlando, Florida? 

8 MR. BROWN: I can go next week. Your Honor. 

9 THE COURT: Is it possible for someone at 

10 your old Orlando, Florida address to mail the Notice 

11 of Complaint to you so that you can get it faster than 

12 that? 

13 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

14 THE COURT: Okay. Can you tell me just so 

15 that I know for future reference whether you have a 

16 GED Or a high school diploma? 

17 MR. BROWN: I have an associate's degree, 

18 Your Honor. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. Does that mean that you 

20 also have a GED and or a high school diploma. 

21 MR. BROWN: Sorry, Your Honor. Yes. I have 

22 a high school diploma, Your Honor. 

23 THE COURT: Okay. And what's your associate 

24 degree in, sir? 

2 5 MR. BROWN: Respiratory therapy. Your Honor. 

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1 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What? 

2 MR. BROWN: Respiratory therapy. Your Honor. 

3 THE COURT: Okay. Do you have the ability 

4 to read and understand some complex material it sounds 

5 like? 

6 MR. BROWN: Somewhat, Your Honor. 

7 THE COURT: Okay. In this complaint which 

8 is three pages long, you will see that there is a 

9 section one and it's identified by a Roman numeral one 

10 on page one, on section two which is identified by a 

11 Roman numeral two on page one, and a section three, 

12 identified by roman numeral three on page three. 

13 Typically when a person does a formal 

14 written answer to a complaint, they follow the format 

15 of the complaint very closely, and so your answer will 

16 basically say answer to complaint, that's your title, 

17 and then you'll say paragraph one, and then you answer 

18 each and every allegation under paragraph roman 

19 numeral one. 

20 The same is true for paragraph roman numeral 

21 two. You answer -- so you admit the paragraph, you 

22 deny it, you admit and explain, you deny and explain. 

23 You may say you don't have enough information to say, 

24 but it all has to be done in good faith. You can't 

25 just deny everything as if that's the only answer you 

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1 have. You have to be very specific and tell us 

2 specifically what it is that you agree with, what it 

3 is that you disagree with, and why you disagree with 

4 it. Does that make sense? 

5 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. Did the Court 

6 receive the previous one I sent, or do I have to send 

7 another one, Your Honor? 

8 THE COURT: I didn't receive any answer from 

9 you at all. The only thing I received from you was 

10 sent to me by the FAA which is a one-page part of a 

11 document that says with a check mark in a check box 

12 that you request that a hearing be held in Orlando, 

13 Florida. I didn't receive anything else. 

14 MR. BROWN: May I ask you a question. Your 

15 Honor? 

16 THE COURT: Sure. 

17 MR. BROWN: Are you supposed to receive all 

18 of the information that we've - - that me and Mr. 

19 Camacho have exchanged between each other. Your Honor? 

2 0 THE COURT: No. The short answer to that is 

21 no. 

22 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

23 THE COURT: There is a strong emphasis in 

24 all litigation I think to allow the parties the 

25 freedom to exchange a variety of different letters. 

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1 emails, phone calls, and documents without ever the 

2 Court knowing. 

3 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

4 THE COURT: And part of that is to allow you 

5 to engage in free and frank settlement negotiations 

6 without fear of having those negotiations reported to 

7 the Court. 

8 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

9 THE COURT: So the answer is no I would not 

10 have received that, and the FAA is not supposed to be 

11 sending me everything. 

12 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

13 MR. COMACHO: Your Honor, may I ask that you 

14 explain about the distinction between those type of 

15 documents and discovery? 

16 THE COURT: I would be happy to. 

17 Mr. Brown. 

18 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

19 THE COURT: The same is true in many 

20 respects for discovery. This Court does not oversee 

21 discovery unless there is a complaint by a party. 

2 2 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

23 THE COURT: So you can exchange discovery 

24 documents without ever ccing me on any of it. The 

25 caveat with that, however, is what you exchange during 

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1 the discovery period on a formal basis can be utilized 

2 against a party during trial. 

3 So you have to be very careful about making 

4 sure that if you are doing settlement negotiations 

5 after I'm involved, and I'm clearly involved at this 

6 point, that when you're engaged in settlement 

7 negotiations that you are very clear with the opposing 

8 party that you're not engaged in a discovery process 

9 at the same time. 

10 So for example, you could call Mr. Camacho 

11 up and say I'd like to talk about settlement, so this 

12 is going to be off the record. And then the two of 

13 you talk and you exchange information, and let's say 

14 that you don't like the offer that Mr. Camacho says is 

15 his bottom line. 

16 The next time you call Mr. Camacho, you can 

17 say let's talk about discovery, and at that point 

18 whatever you're saying is part of your discovery 

19 record between each other so you're going to be a 

20 little more careful about what's being said and what's 

21 being exchanged. Does that make sense to you, Mr. 

22 Brown? 

23 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

24 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Camacho, would you 

25 like to add or clarify to that? 

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1 MR. COMACHO: No, Your Honor. I think that 

2 there is usually a misconception even among practicing 

3 attorneys that either, one, a copy of the discovery 

4 itself and/or the answers without any enclosures are 

5 provided to the Judge, and I think it will vary from 

6 particular - - not particular Judge but the particular 

7 jurisdiction, whether we're in front of NTSB, MSPB, 

8 EEOC, here, the Department of Transportation of 

9 hearings, etcetera. 

10 Usually a policy is set that judges do or do 

11 not want to have copies for the record, and that's why 

12 I wanted to ask you to please clarify that for him. 

13 THE COURT: Well, I think we're getting into 

14 something a little different. 

15 Mr. Brown, there are many different Federal 

16 agencies that operate as the judicatory bodies, the 

17 Department of Transportation being one of them which 

18 is why I'm present here with the two of you today. 

19 Those adjudicatory bodies all have different 

2 0 rules and regulations that are published which the 

21 judges must then follow. In this particular agency, 

22 the Office of Hearings with the U.S. Department of 

2 3 Transportation, we have very specific regulations that 

24 allow for a great deal of discovery to pass between 

25 the parties. That's not necessarily true for many of 

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1 the other agencies that Mr.' Camacho has identified. 

2 We don't need to worry about those other agencies. 

3 For this particular case before me, I don't 

4 need to see your discovery that you exchange between 

5 the two of you unless and only unless there is a 

6 problem. And if there's a problem, then there's a 

7 certain way to get me involved which is called a 

8 motion. 

9 Once you file a motion complaining about a 

10 discovery process, usually you would file with that 

11 motion that portion of the discovery that you want me 

12 to review and help you out with, to make it simple. 

13 If you're doing fine with the discovery 

14 between the two of you, I don't need to see any of the 

15 material. But I don't want to get distracted with 

16 that. 

17 My real focus right now is to make sure that 

18 you, Mr. Brown, know that you need to file a writ ten 

19 answer that responds specifically to each and every 

20 paragraph in the three-page notice of complaint that 

21 the FAA filed with this office, and you need --

22 MR. BROWN: Can I ask you a question? 

2 3 THE COURT: Yes. 

24 MR. BROWN: Go ahead. Your Honor. I'm 

25 sorry. 

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1 THE COURT: Go ahead. Did you have a 

2 question? 

3 MR. BROWN: Yes. Can I use any information 

4 that we used before even though it's not part of the 

5 discovery. Your Honor, or before even that me and Mr. 

6 Camacho had talked about for the written answer of 

7 complaint, Your Honor? 

8 THE COURT: You can craft your answer to 

9 include any answers that you previously gave to Mr. 

10 Camacho. You can repeat them in the answer that you 

11 write for this Court. 

12 MR. BROWN: Thank you. Your Honor. 

13 THE COURT: Okay. But you need to have that 

14 answer filed before we have our next litigation 

15 scheduling conference so that I have a sense of how 

16 far apart or how close together you are in terms of 

17 your dispute, and that will give me a very good sense 

IS of how long the trial might need to take if you, in 

19 fact, go to trial. 

2 0 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

21 THE COURT: Well, looking at your calendar 

22 as I look at mine, I see that today is December 7, 

2 3 2011. We have a holiday that's comingup for many 

24 people in two weeks of - - Mr. Brown, what's your 

25 general schedule? Are you working at night all the 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

time? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. Do you have any days off? 

MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: What days do you typically have 

off? 

MR. BROWN: It varies. Your Honor. 

Sometimes it's during the beginning of the week or the 

middle of the week. Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. When you get off at work, 

what time do you normally get off? 

MR. BROWN: At around 7:05, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Is that 7:05 in the morning or 

7:05 at night? 

MR. BROWN: 7:05 in the morning. Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. And what time do you 

usually go to bed once you get off work? Some people 

need a couple hours to unwind. Some people go home 

and go to bed right away. 

MR. BROWN: I've got a couple of hours. Your 

Honor, until --

THE COURT: Yeah, what time do you usually 

go to bed? 

MR. BROWN: Around 9:00, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. And then what time do 

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1 you usually get up? 

2 MR. BROWN: Around two, Your Honor. 

3 THE COURT: So would it be fair to say that 

4 to have something that's a little after 2:00 in the 

5 afternoon is preferable for you? 

6 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

7 THE COURT: I'm going to ask both of you to 

8 take a look at your calendars about one month from 

9 now, and that's the week of January 8th, 2012. I'm 

10 looking at January 10th and January 12th which are a 

11 Tuesday and a Thursday, respectfully. 

12 Mr. Brown, starting with you, if we set this 

13 say 2:30 and after on Tuesday the 10th of January or 

14 Thursday the 12th of January, would that work for you? 

15 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Camacho, looking at 

17 your calendar, do either of those dates work? 

18 MR. COMACHO: Either one works. Judge. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. So let's plan on Tuesday, 

20 January lO, at 3:00 in the afternoon which would be 

21 eastern time, and that will be our third litigation 

22 scheduling conference. 

23 Now, because it's January 10, I'm going to 

24 backtrack from that date to give you a due date, Mr. 

25 Brown, to file your written answer. 

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1 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

2 THE COURT: Are you going to be taking any 

3 time off during the holidays that are coming up, and 

4 if so , what vacatio n time are you taking? 

5 MR. BROWN: I'm not taking any vacation 

6 time. Your Honor. I'm off on Christmas, so --

7 THE COURT: Okay. 

8 MR. BROWN: -- it doesn't matter, Your 

9 Honor. My schedule is pretty free, but I just wanted 

10 to have that next morning. 

11 THE COURT: Okay. What I'm going to do, 

12 sir, is I'm going to give you a due date to file your 

13 written answer, and that will be December 29th, 2011. 

14 You can file it tomorrow if you get your notice of 

15 complaint and all your ducks in a row, but you have 

16 until December 29, 2011, to write it and file it. 

17 When I say file it, I mean that you're 

18 sending a copy to me, to Mr. Camacho, and to the 

19 docket clerk at the FAA which is a different office 

20 than mine. 

21 When you look at the order setting second 

22 litigation scheduling conference, you'11 see a service 

23 list attached as the very back page, and it will have 

24 your name, Mr. Camacho's name, my name, and the FAA's 

25 name all on it, and all of them, all of these people 

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1 also have addresses -- address lists. So when you 

2 file your document, you are putting this in the U.S. 

3 mail to each of these places, addressed to each of 

4 these people. 

5 So you'll address one to Mr. Camacho. 

6 You'11 address one to me. Judge Sullivan, and then 

7 you'll address one to the docket clerk at the FAA. 

8 And of course, keep a copy for yourself. 

9 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

10 THE COURT: Now, since your answer is going 

11 to be due on the 29th, you and Mr. Camacho can talk at 

12 any time between now and that January 10th, 2010, but 

13 to be on the safe side, I think what we should do is 

14 schedule a private telephone conference for the two of 

15 you to make sure that you can reach other because as 

16 Mr. Camacho mentioned earlier, he's called you several 

17 times and has not been able to reach you. And that's 

18 no good. 

19 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

2 0 THE COURT: So let me go to Mr. Camacho 

21 next. 

22 Mr. Camacho, do you have work time that you 

23 are working during the first full week of January? 

24 MR. COMACHO: Yes, Judge. I'm back in the 

25 office January 3 through the 6th, and I will say that 

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1 because I now understand more fully although I don't 

2 yet know what time Mr. Brown starts his evening shift, 

3 I did not appreciate the fact that he works evenings, 

4 and as a consequence my - - although in the beginning I 

5 started calling him during the day, I started to work 

6 on the premise that he was probably -- I couldn't 

7 reach him because he was at work when, in fact, as I 

8 started reaching/trying to call him later, five, six, 

9 seven at night, probably he was at work. 

10 So I know see that the most opportune for me 

11 is to try to reach him two to three or three to four 

12 in the afternoon, assuming that he's still available 

13 and not at work. And that would be my efforts would 

14 be directed to accomplish that. 

15 THE COURT: Well, I appreciate that, but I 

16 think it will be even more helpful if I just schedule 

17 an appointment for the two of you while Mr. Brown is 

18 on the phone. 

19 MR. COMACHO: Okay. We can do that. 

2 0 THE COURT: Mr. Brown, looking at your 

21 calendar in the first week of January, 2012, do you 

22 have time available on Wednesday the 4th, Thursday the 

2 3 5th, or Friday the 6th between the hours of two and 

24 say 4:30 to talk to Mr. Camacho by phone? 

25 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

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1 THE COURT: Do you have any preference for 

2 any of those day? 

3 MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. 

4 THE COURT: Mr. Camacho, I didn't ask this 

5 of you. Do you have any preference for any one of 

6 those days? 

7 MR. COMACHO: My preference would probably 

8 be Thursday the 5th so that I could play catch up 

9 having come back from the holidays. 

10 THE COURT: Why don't we do this, I'm going 

11 to set a private phone conference appointment for the 

12 two of you on Thursday, January 5, 2012, at 3:00 p.m. 

13 MR. COMACHO: And that's Eastern time? 

14 THE COURT: Eastern time. And Mr. Camacho, 

15 I'll ask you to initiate the phone call if you'd be so 

16 kind. 

17 MR. COMACHO: We'll do that. 

18 THE COURT: Mr. Brown, I will not be 

19 participating in this phone call. This is just an 

20 opportunity for you and Mr. Camacho to speak privately 

21 about the case after you file your answer. 

22 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

23 THE COURT: Okay, and then I will be 

24 chatting with the two of you again the following week 

2 5 on Thursday -- I'm sorry, Tuesday, excuse me, January 

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1 10, 2010, beginning at 3:00 p.m. in the afternoon 

2 Eastern time. 

3 By that time, I will have received your 

4 answer, Mr. Brown. I'll have a much better idea of 

5 where you are agreeing with the FAA or disagreeing 

6 with the FAA, and I think you'll have a much better 

7 feel for what you need to do as your own 

8 representative if you decide to go to trial because by 

9 that time, sir, I'd presume that you will have either 

10 gone to a law library and looked up these codes of 

11 federal regulation that we've already talked about and 

12 also kind of done some weighing and balancing in terms 

13 of your life about what you want to see happen and 

14 what you think would be best for you both in time and 

15 in money. 

16 MR. BROWN: Yes, Your Honor. 

17 THE COURT; And then we can reconvene early 

18 in January, on January 10, 2012 and talk about what 

19 the progress has been so far, where we want to go, and 

20 what the time lines are for further proceedings. 

21 If at that time you and Mr. Camacho still 

22 want to go to trial, then I'll be setting up trial 

23 dates and some other deadlines for you at that time. 

24 So with that on behalf of the FTU^, Mr. 

25 Camacho, is there anything else that we need to 

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1 address for your client? 

2 MR. COMACHO: No, Your Honor. Not at this 

3 point. No. 

4 THE COURT: Thank you. 

5 Mr. Brown, do you have any questions that 

6 you would like to ask about this process so far, or is 

7 there anything else that I can do for you today on 

8 behalf of your own self? 

9 MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. I have all the 

10 dates, Your Honor. 

11 THE COURT: Okay. Then just so that we're 

12 clear, I'll be sending mail to you from here on out to 

13 your Melbourne, Florida address unless you tell us 

14 differently. 

15 MR. BROWN: Thank you. Your Honor. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. With that, I look forward 

17 to talking with you both in early January 2012. I'll 

18 wish you all a good holiday in the meantime. 

19 We can go off the record, and I wish you all 

2 0 a good day. 

21 MR. COMACHO: Thank you. Judge. 

22 THE COURT: Thank you. 

23 (Whereupon, at 2:50 p.m., the hearing in the 

24 above-entitled matter was concluded.) 

25 // 

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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 

DOCKET NO.: 

CASE TITLE: 

HEARING DATE: 

LOCATION: 

FDMS NO. FAA-2011-1009 

QUENTON T. BROWN 

December 7, 2012 

Washington, D.C. 

I hereby certify that the proceedings and 

evidence are contained fully and accurately on the 

tapes and notes reported by me at the hearing in the 

above case before the Department of Transportation. 

Date I 

Kyld 

Offiti 

iJohnsj 

jorter 

Heritage Reporting Corporation 

Suite 600 

1220 L Street, N.W. 

Washington, D.C. 20005-4018 

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