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56–073 PDF 2010

S. HRG. 111–395 

COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM: FAITHBASED PERSPECTIVES 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION, 

REFUGEES AND BORDER SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

OCTOBER 8, 2009 

Serial No. J–111–56 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman 

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin 

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York 

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island 

AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota 

EDWARD E. KAUFMAN, Delaware 

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa 

JON KYL, Arizona 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

JOHN CORNYN, Texas 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

BRUCE A. COHEN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director 

MATT MINER, Republican Chief Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION, REFUGEES AND BORDER SECURITY

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York, Chairman 

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois 

SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

JOHN CORNYN, Texas 

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa 

JON KYL, Arizona 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

STEPHANIE MARTY, Democratic Chief Counsel 

MATTHEW L. JOHNSON, Republican Chief Counsel 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS 

Page 

Cornyn, Hon. John, a U.S. Senator from the State of Texas ............................... 4 

Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont, prepared 

statement .............................................................................................................. 152 

Schumer, Hon. Charles E., a U.S. Senator from the State of New York ............ 1 

Sessions, Hon. Jeff, a U.S. Senator from the State of Alabama .......................... 5 

WITNESS 

Anderson, Leith, Senior Pastor, Wooddale Church, Eden Prairie, Maintenance ..................................................................................................................... 8 

Gerson, Michael, Senior Research Fellow, Institute for Global Affairs, Washington, D.C. ........................................................................................................... 7 

McCarrick, His Eminence Theodore, Cardinal Archbishop Emeritus, Diocese 

of Washington, Washington, D.C. ....................................................................... 10 

Rodriguez, Reverend Samuel, President, National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, Sacramento, California ........................................................... 12 

Tolle, James, Senior Pastor, The Church on the Way, Van Nuys, California .... 13 

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 

Responses of Leith Anderson to questions submitted by Senator Sessions ........ 20 

Responses of Michael Gerson to questions submitted by Senator Sessions ....... 29 

Responses of His Eminence Theodore McCarrick to questions submitted by 

Senator Sessions .................................................................................................. 30 

Responses of Reverend Samuel Rodriguez to questions submitted by Senator 

Sessions ................................................................................................................. 33 

Responses of James Tolle to questions submitted by Senator Sessions .............. 34 

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

Anderson, Leith, Senior Pastor, Wooddale Church, Eden Prairie, Maintenance, statement .................................................................................................. 41 

Anti-Defamation League, Washington, D.C., statement ...................................... 45 

Catholic Charities USA, Baltimore, Maryland, statement ................................... 47 

Center for Immigration Studies, Washington, D.C.: 

Catholics, Immigration, and the Common Good, August 2009, article ........ 51 

A Biblical Perspective on Immigration Policy, September 2009, article ...... 61 

No ‘Progress by Pesach’, August 2009, article ............................................... 73 

Foltin, Richard T., Esq., Director, American Jewish Committee, Washington, 

D.C., statement .................................................................................................... 101 

Friends Committee on National Legislation, Washington, D.C., statement ....... 106 

Gerson, Michael, Senior Research Fellow, Institute for Global Affairs, Washington, D.C., statement ........................................................................................ 108 

Hybels, Lynne and Bill, Willow Creek Community Church, South Barrington, 

Illinois, statement ................................................................................................ 110 

Individual, Local and State Faith Statement ........................................................ 115 

Interfaith Immigration Coalition, San Francisco, California, statement ............ 136 

Interfaith Platform on Human Immigration Reform, statement ......................... 138 

Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service, Baltimore, Maryland, statement . 153 

McCarrick, His Eminence Theodore, Cardinal Archbishop Emeritus, Diocese 

of Washington, Washington, D.C., statement .................................................... 155 

National Faith Statement, misc. letters ................................................................ 173 

Page

IV 

National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, Sacramento, California, 

letter ...................................................................................................................... 200 

Network, A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby, Washington, D.C., letter .. 202 

Pelavin, Mark J., Associate Director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, Washington, D.C., statement ...................................................................... 203 

Sisters of Mercy of the Americas, Silver Spring, Maryland, letter ...................... 205 

Steinlight, Stephen, Center for Immigration Studies, Washington, D.C., letter 206 

Tolle, James, Senior Pastor, The Church on the Way, Van Nuys, California, 

statement .............................................................................................................. 212 

(1) 

COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM: 

FAITH-BASED PERSPECTIVES 

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 8, 2009 

U.S. SENATE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION, REFUGEES AND BORDER SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:10 p.m., in room 

SD–226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Charles Schumer, 

Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Sessions and Cornyn. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES SCHUMER, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK 

Chairman SCHUMER. The hearing will come to order. I want to 

welcome our guests and my colleagues. We have two more witnesses that are on their way from Senator Grassley’s office right 

now. So we will begin because time is of the essence for everyone. 

Before I begin, I want to extend the good wishes of our Chair, 

Senator Leahy, who I believe was here. Said hello to you, Cardinal, 

and maybe said hello to the other witnesses as well. And he has 

a statement which, without objection we’ll submit for the record. 

[The prepared statement of Chairman Leahy appears as a submission for the record.] 

Chairman SCHUMER. I am going to be brief to accommodate the 

travel schedules of a few of our witnesses who were generous 

enough to come and have flights to catch and other events to attend this afternoon. But I want to welcome all of our witnesses. 

For the past few months this Committee has held hearings and 

invited America’s foremost immigration experts to discuss the most 

difficult problems that exist in our current immigration system and 

to propose solutions for reform. As a result of this process this 

Committee has seen the many ways in which America’s immigration system is broken. I think we all agree to that. And just about 

everyone in the country thinks it needs fixing, will have different 

views as to how, but no one is happy with the present system. 

More needs to be done, of course, to secure our borders, prevent 

businesses from hiring illegal workers, and track people who are in 

the country to determine whether they are here legally or illegally 

are a few examples. More also must be done to encourage the 

worlds’ best and brightest individuals to come to the United States 

and create the new technologies in businesses that will employ 

countless American workers. 

2 

At the same time, it is my belief we must also convert the current flow of low-skilled, illegal immigration into a more manageable and controlled flow of legal immigrants who can be absorbed 

by our economy. 

The good news is that we have learned through these hearings 

that we possess the technological capability and administrative 

know-how to solve many of these serious problems. And the comments of my colleagues in this Committee reflect consensus as to 

how to fix our broken immigration system to improve our security, 

help our economy and remain true to America’s tradition of welcoming immigrants to our shores. 

I have always believed that the American people are both, prolegal immigration and anti-illegal immigration. The American people will accept practical legislation that authorizes the current population of illegal immigrants to obtain legal immigration status, 

but only if they are convinced we are fully committed both resource-wise and politically to prevent future waves of illegal immigration. But even though we know the problems and actually agree 

on many of the solutions, we have all seen, in the past few months, 

how the political discourse and the public discourse have reflected 

increasing hostility toward immigration in general and immigrants 

in particular regardless of their legal status. 

The tone of this debate has led some to ask whether this is indeed the best time to be talking about fixing our broken immigration system. And whether at this particular moment immigration 

is simply a third rail which any public official broaches at their 

peril. 

Well, if you ask me, I think this is the right time to deal with 

immigration reform. 

And, today, for the first time, the National Association of 

Evangelicals has made history and officially announced its support 

for immigration reform. The National Association of Evangelicals is 

the leading voice of the American evangelical community. It represents 30 million paritioners in over 45,000 churches from over 40 

evangelical denominations. This announcement is, in my view, a 

significant step forward toward finally achieving the enactment of 

much needed immigration reform this Congress. 

It is now no longer possible to think of immigration as an issue 

that only matters to the Latino community. As these witnesses attest, this issue crosses faith lines, party lines, ideological lines. The 

evangelicals’ community support for immigration reform is a moral 

imperative for all people of faith, shows that a broad coalition of 

Americans now believe what Pastor Joel Hunter eloquently told 

this Committee in April, quote, ‘‘[T]he urgency for immigration reform cannot be overstated because it is so overdue.’’ 

Just like many Americans turn to their religious leaders for guidance on the most important decisions in their lives, all of us in this 

room and in this country can learn a tremendous amount by turning to the distinguished witnesses on this panel for their unique insight and counsel on how we could address this important issue 

that will affect America’s future for decades to come. 

For this reason we are asking them to give us their best pastoral 

counseling on how to move forward with immigration policy that 

3 

Americans will embrace and that will finally provide the long overdue forums we desperately need. 

These leaders are here to remind all of us that the same immigrants who many are so quick to demonize are the very people who 

often most embody the spirit of America. The leaders of this panel 

can tell you that immigrants they have met and counseled have a 

deep and abiding religious faith. They can tell you stories about immigrants in their communities who demonstrate strong work ethic, 

entrepreneurship, and commitment to individual responsibility. 

And they have seen first-hand the strong family values that exist 

within immigrant communities which serve to reinforce all Americans’ commitment to family values. These leaders understand that 

because immigrants are first and foremost human beings, made in 

God’s image, many of whom came here to feed their families, it’s 

critical that civility guides our rhetoric whenever we discuss immigration. 

Any attempt to enact long-needed reforms to our immigration 

system will not succeed unless our friends, neighbors and colleagues believe we are not motivated by a desire to destroy the fabric of America, but rather to fix a broken system that is tragically 

leading to the creation of broken people, broken families, and broken communities. 

So, I am glad to be here. We have several distinguished witnesses to counsel us as how to best conduct the ongoing immigration debate going forward and how they think we should reform the 

system to fix the problems they encounter on a daily basis. 

I look forward with great interest to their testimony. And I want 

to recognize all of the religious groups that have submitted statements in support of comprehensive immigration reform. 

For the record, I will ask unanimous consent to submit these 

statements and make them part of the record. They include the 

American Jewish Community, the Interfaith Immigration Coalition, the Sisters of Mercy of America, the Friends Committee on 

National Legislation, the Network of National Catholic Social Justice Lobby, the Union for Reform Judaism, the Anti-Defamation 

League. All of these groups and many others have been and will 

continue to be critical players in any discussion regarding immigration reform. 

[The prepared statements appears as a submission for the 

record.] 

Chairman SCHUMER. I want to especially point out a historic 

statement sent to us by Pastor Bill Hybels of the Willow Creek 

Community Church in Illinois, one of the largest and most important evangelical churches in America, who along with his wife 

Lynn Hybels wanted to be here today but could not due to missionary work they’re conducting in Africa. They indicate as follows, 

quote, ‘‘Bill and I are committed to immigration reform and hope 

it will pass Congress soon. We believe that most Americans would 

be moved to pass comprehensive immigration reform if they could 

see the faces of immigration as we have seen them.’’ unquote. 

I ask unanimous consent that this statement be added to the 

record as well and recognize Senator Cornyn for an opening statement. 

4 

[The prepared statement of Pastor Hybels appears as a submission for the record.] 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN CORNYN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF TEXAS 

Senator CORNYN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If there is a group 

that is in need of pastoral counseling, it is the U.S. Congress. I can 

attest to that. 

But I want to welcome all of the witnesses for being here today. 

Thank you for your insights. I want to acknowledge some who, like 

Senator Schumer said, couldn’t be here. For example, Reverend 

Louis Cortez who I met with recently in my office and others with 

Esperanza. 

I want to also acknowledge other important people in the faith 

community who I have had a chance to talk about this subject at 

length with like Archbishop Gomez, Father Elasando, and others. 

We know our Nation was founded by immigrants many of whom 

came to this country seeking religious freedom. Four hundred years 

ago the Puritans were persecuted by their government in England. 

They sought a new life where they could practice their religion in 

peace. And, of course, we know their story aboard the Mayflower 

and when they got here one of the first things they did was to create the Mayflower Compact, one of the first written constitutions 

in North America. 

The Mayflower Compact established the principle that religious 

freedom and democratic governance go hand in hand. A principle 

later enshrined in our own constitution. 

That first generation of immigrants set a good example, I believe. 

Today the United States of America welcomes immigrants from all 

over the world, respects traditions of many faiths, and defends and 

upholds the rule of law. Today leaders of faith communities offer 

a valuable perspective on their experience with the consequences of 

the current broken system. 

As Senator Schumer knows in 2005 Senator Jon Kyl and I introduced, I think, one of the most—one of the first comprehensive immigration reform bills in this last decade, something we called ‘‘The 

Comprehensive Border and Security Immigration Reform Act of 

2005;’’ which addressed all components of what I think we need to 

address in dealing with this challenging system. 

I remain convinced that Congress needs to act on reform. The 

problem we had the last couple of times we tried to do this is I 

don’t think the American people trust us when it comes to do some 

very basic things. For example, to enforce our laws, to secure our 

borders, and the like. I believe if they had greater confidence in 

their Congress and their elected representatives, they would recognize the challenging situation we find ourselves in with some 12 

million non-citizens here who live in great fear and threat. The current broken system is bad for everyone, but particularly bad for undocumented immigrants who are here in this country. 

I think of a young woman who is the victim of domestic violence 

who is afraid to turn to the police because of the consequences it 

might have for her; the worker who works for cash from an employer who then denies him his fair wages because that employer 

knows they have no where to turn because they don’t have the proVerDate Nov 24 2008 08:30 May 11, 2010 Jkt 056073 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56073.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
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tection of our laws being here in violation of our immigration laws; 

and others who like the immigrant who comes into our country in 

the hands of a coyote who cares nothing for their life, but for whom 

that means nothing but a paycheck. All of these individuals are victims of our broken immigration system and our need to restore 

order out of chaos and to restore the rule of law and to regain the 

confidence of the American people. 

So I think immigration reform has to secure our borders, has to 

facilitate the legitimate trade in commerce, has to enhance our 

global competitiveness, has to strengthen and simplify the employment verification and eligibility rules, it has to uphold the rule of 

law more generally and develop a practical and compassionate solution for the current situation for those who are here as non-citizens who I described earlier. And, ultimately, to restore public confidence that Congress is competent and interested, not only in dealing with the problem on the front end, but following through and 

actually see that what we pass into law is implemented by appropriate oversight and appropriations and the like. 

So we will be looking to each of our witnesses for their counsel. 

But we will also be looking to you for your leadership after we have 

new laws on our books. 

You can help the members of your faith community understand 

what they need to do in order to comply with whatever new laws 

that we put on the books. And you can help them understand what 

services are available to them if they comply with our laws. And 

you can help Congress understand how immigration reform is 

working in your communities and whether we will need to make 

additional changes as I am sure we will over time. 

So at the end of the day, I think we are talking about a core responsibility of the Federal government. That is to create an immigration system that is lawful, brings order out of chaos and protects the most vulnerable in our society. 

Faith communities and other organizations can be helpful partners. But I want to say I also think it’s not responsible of Congress 

to impose on others, non- governmental organizations, the duties 

that we properly bear as elected representatives and officials in the 

Federal government. Accountability for success squarely rests with 

us here in Washington, the elected representatives of the American 

people. 

So I thank all of you for joining us here today and I look forward 

to your testimony and your answers to our questions. 

And thank you, again, Mr. Chairman, for your leadership on having what I think have been a series of productive hearings. I look 

forward to working with you to accomplish our common goal. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Senator Sessions, would you like to make 

an opening statement? 

STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF SESSIONS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF ALABAMA 

Senator SESSIONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think a number 

of our witnesses in their statements that I have had a chance to 

review some, some of them in some depth are correct to say that 

every soul, every individual is a child of God and deserves great respect and humane treatment, and that is a challenge all of us have. 

6 

And so I think a lot of the anger that is out there should not be 

interpreted so much as an anger against immigrants or anger 

against certain individuals. But I do think a lot of it is directed at 

us in Congress. Because the American people concluded rightly, I 

believe, last time that we were proposing a legalization scheme for 

people who were here illegally and suggestions and promotions that 

we were developing a system that would work in the future was 

wrong and I don’t think it would have worked. 

So, gosh, Mr. Chairman, you’ve said some good things about how 

we have to work, what we are going to have to do. But I am not 

going to be supportive of any plan that is going to, in effect, legalize millions of people and then send a signal that our borders remain open still and attract even more millions. So we are having 

this problem again. So how we work our way through it, I don’t 

know, but it needs to be done in the right spirit. And I appreciate 

each of you for sharing your thoughts. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Thank you, Senator Sessions. I do agree 

with you that we have to convince Americans that there will not 

be future waves of illegal immigrants in order to succeed with the 

present group that are both here and future people who might 

come. 

Senator SESSIONS. I agree with you. 

Chairman SCHUMER. We have a very distinguished panel. I am 

honored, I think we are all honored to have all of you here and 

very much appreciate your caring and your taking the time. That 

is panel will really help us come together on immigration. So we 

appreciate it. 

I am going to give a brief introduction to each of our five panelists and then let them proceed. And your entire statements will be 

read into the record fully. And so you may proceed as you wish 

once we finish the introductions. 

First, Michael Gerson is a Senior Research Fellow at the Institute for Global Engagement, Center on Faith and International Affairs. He is also a Washington Post columnist who writes about politics, global health, development in religion and foreign policy. I for 

one enjoy and look forward to your columns all the time, even if 

I don’t agree with every one of them. 

He served as a policy advisor and chief speech writer to President Bush from 2000 to 2006 and has been recognized by Time 

Magazine as one of the 25 most influential evangelicals in America. 

Pastor Leith Anderson is President of the National Association of 

Evangelicals which represents the interests of the churches of over 

30 million—of the churches that over 30 million Christians attend 

every Sunday. He is also the senior pastor of the Wooddale Church, 

one of the largest churches in Minnesota. He has published many 

periodicals and has written ten books. I admire anyone who has 

written any book. I wrote one and it’s very hard to do. So, very impressive as well. 

His Eminence, Cardinal Theodore Edgar McCarrick is a wellknown figure, of course, to many of us. He has served as Archbishop of Washington from 2001 to 2006. Now serves as Archbishop 

Emeritus of Washington, D.C. And for the last 40 years he has 

been a leading voice in the Roman Catholic Church on all of the 

important issues of our time. 

7 

Cardinal McCarrick recently presided at the funeral of our dear 

colleague, Senator Kennedy, who we all miss tremendously. And 

we know Senator Kennedy would be thrilled to see you here today, 

Cardinal. 

Reverend Samuel Rodriguez is the President of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. An organization that represents approximately 15 million Hispanic Christians in issues of 

leadership, fellowship, networking partnerships and public policy. 

He was named by Newsweek Magazine as the religious leader to 

look for in 2008. So we have both Newsweek and Time represented 

here today. 

Pastor James Tolle is the Senior Pastor of The Church on the 

Way in Van Nuys, California. That is one of the largest churches 

in America with over 20,000 members. It has been recognized in 

several publications as one of the most influential churches in 

America, and one of the fastest growing churches in America. 

When you are that big, it is hard to be one of the fastest growing. 

So that is a major accomplishment. 

We are really honored to have all five of you here today. As I 

said, your entire statement will be read into the record. And we 

will just go from left—my left to my right. 

So, Mr. Gerson, you may proceed. 

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL GERSON, SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW, INSTITUTE FOR GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Mr. GERSON. Mr. Chairman, Senators, thank you. There is no 

more important difficult task than defining the American community and determining how we treat those who wish to join it. This 

work has many economic and national security implications. I believe that a relatively open immigration system ultimately is good 

for the economy though it causes dislocations that must be addressed. 

I believe that an orderly guest-worker system would make it 

easier to have an orderly border. 

But the debate on immigration is not nearly utilitarian. Not just 

a matter of costs and benefits. It also concerns our deepest values 

as a people; values often informed by faith. 

Concerning one issue in particular those values are urgently 

needed. Sometimes the real passion in the immigration debate is 

not economic, but cultural. A fear that American unity and identity 

are being diluted by Latino immigration. 

Samuel Huntington of Harvard has claimed that Mexican migration compromise the quote, ‘‘core of American culture identity.’’ 

Which he calls, quote, ‘‘a Protestant society.’’ 

During the last immigration debate this charge took cruder 

forms with some commentators warning that immigration reform 

would quote, ‘‘erase America.’’ And this argument on the fringes 

has sometimes become a cover for raw bigotry. With Hispanics 

called quote, ‘‘leaches’’ and ‘‘the world’s lowest primitives,’’ and carries of, quote, ‘‘the fajita flu.’’ 

On this matter religious people have no choice but to speak because these arguments are entirely false, inconsistent with the 

teachings of faith, and destructive to American ideals. 

8 

First, you are forced to speak when your neighbors are libeled. 

It is true that Latinos in some ways are different from mainstream 

culture. Higher percentages attend church regularly. Higher percentages of Latin immigrants are married. Lower percentages are 

divorced. These differences hardly threaten our unit or identity. 

Every new immigrant group has challenges. But Latinos, including illegal immigrants often display values emblematic of America, 

risking much for the sake of economic and political freedom. They 

make our country more, not less American. 

Second, people of faith believe that the image of God is universal 

and uniform. That a passport or a Green Card does not confer 

human worth and dignity. It is a principle that forbids dismissive 

abstractions. No one is an ‘‘illegal.’’ They are human beings with 

stories and struggles. Every alien is also a neighbor. 

This concern for individual dignity requires the making of certain 

moral distinctions. People of faith affirm the importance of the rule 

of law. But the law is made for human beings, not human beings 

for the law. 

A young woman who dies in that desert during a perilous crossing for the dream of living in America is not the moral equivalent 

of a drug dealer. And millions of hardworking, religious, family oriented neighbors make unlikely criminals. 

The biblical tradition teaches a positive duty to care for the 

stranger in our midst. Christian ministries provide help to anyone, 

whatever their legal status. Because if righteousness were the requirement for mercy, none of us would deserve or receive mercy. 

And it is a great theme of the biblical story that God’s purposes 

are often fulfilled through refugees—in Egypt, in the wilderness, in 

Babylon, in the flight from Herod, in the temporary troubled kingdoms of this world. These beliefs do not translate simplistically into 

open borders and amnesty. They do mean, however, that immigrants should never be used as objects of organized anger or singled out for prejudice and harm. 

Finally, the argument for national unity based on birth and 

background is inconsistent with the American ideal. An ideal informed by a belief in God-given universal rights. The core of American identity is not cultural purity. It is social mobility and shared 

principles. This model of unity has done better than any other even 

after the massive forced migration of slavery and it is certainly 

equal to this moment. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Michael Gerson appears as a submission for the record.] 

STATEMENT OF LEITH ANDERSON, SENIOR PASTOR 

WOODDALE CHURCH, EDEN PRAIRIE, MINNESOTA 

Mr. ANDERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and the Senators for 

the opportunity to speak to you on what is a very important topic. 

And Senator Schumer, you are correct; yes, this is the time. This 

is the time. 

I represent the National Association of Evangelicals which has 

40 plus denominations and we think about 45,000 churches. And 

we have been through a 2-year process of examining what our constituency has to say. And that has led to the approval by our leadVerDate Nov 24 2008 08:30 May 11, 2010 Jkt 056073 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56073.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
9 

ership today of a resolution in favor of comprehensive immigration 

reform. 

Evangelicals have long been engaged in this process. But one of 

the things we have increasingly discovered is that they are us. 

That is to say, that many of our large denominations are growing 

primarily through immigration and that a significant percentage, 

in some cases a third to a half of those that are in evangelical denominations are first-generation immigrants. 

So our churches have long been open to immigrants. We welcome 

them. We do not ask someone’s status in relationship to the government for being part of one of our congregations. That may 

sound as if an open borders policy is proposed. That is certainly not 

the case. We are for strong borders and want the borders to be regulated and think that is an essential part of public order. 

However, we also, as already stated, value immigrants and are 

convinced that they are important to not only the evangelical 

churches here represented, but also to the strength of the United 

States. 

And family values is one of those key elements that there are not 

only strong family values that are coming with those who come into 

our country, but also that our policy give high priority to the reunification of families and that that be a key element in comprehensive immigration reform. And that relates to the issuing of visas 

under the current law as well as any that is proposed. 

Occasionally we are asked questions regarding lawbreaking and 

are reminded of teaching in the New Testament that those who are 

Christians are to be obedient to the law and we certainly espouse 

that. Although that is not an absolute principle. And we also recognize that immigration laws have changed significantly throughout 

the history of this country. And it is the time to change those laws 

again. 

One of our agencies is the World Relief Corporation and that organization has been strongly active in the relocation of immigrants 

since the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. And we 

have been directly engaged through our churches in the relocation 

of 100,000 immigrants into the United States. 

A lot of concerns are typically raised including the issue of jobs 

and whether or not that will displace current workers. It is in our 

opinion something that is different in different communities. But in 

the overall perspective that it is good for our economy to have those 

who come and are willing to work in our country. 

For employers there has been, as you well know, significant 

issues that it is difficult for employers to comply with laws and 

therefore those laws need to be changed so the responsibility does 

not rest primarily with them. 

But often it comes down to real people. So I am a pastor of a 

local church in Minneapolis and talked to a woman in our community who came to the United States as a refugee. She is legally in 

the United States as is her family. However, when her son reaches 

his 18th birthday it will be necessary for him to leave to return to 

Africa to a country where he does not speak the language or know 

anyone. And it is just an illustration of where change is possible. 

So we have a growing commitment to the following in our recent 

resolution: No. 1, that there be fair and humane treatment of imVerDate Nov 24 2008 08:30 May 11, 2010 Jkt 056073 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56073.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
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migrants; No. 2, that we have strong borders; No. 3, that we 

prioritize family reunification; and No. 4, that we provide a reasonable path to legal status and citizenship for those who are currently undocumented in the United States. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Leith Anderson appears as a submission for the record.] 

STATEMENT OF HIS EMINENCE THEODORE MCCARRICK, CARDINAL ARCHBISHOP EMERITUS, DIOCESE OF WASHINGTON, 

WASHINGTON, DC 

Cardinal MCCARRICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to 

thank Chairman Schumer for having this hearing today and for his 

leadership on this very important national issue. 

I would also like to thank Senator John Cornyn for being here 

and Senator Sessions, I think. It’s a sign of the importance of this 

very, very key problem that we are facing and the hope that we 

can working all together we can find out some solution for it. 

I know that this issue of immigration is important to our entire 

country. I rejoice at the great position taken by the National Association of Evangelicals. They are a very important group. And the 

fact that the presentation that Pastor Anderson made is extremely 

important for all of us and a great step forward for the whole country. 

Today I am testifying on behalf of the United States Conference 

of Catholic Bishops where I serve as a consultant to the U.S. 

Bishops Committee on Migration. My views, therefore, reflect those 

of my brother bishops across the country. 

As a contributor to this debate, the Catholic Church brings institutional knowledge gained by assisting newcomers for over 200 

years in our parishes, social service programs, schools, and hospitals. More importantly, we also bring the teachings of the gospel, 

both the Old and the New Testament in which the Israelites were 

told that they too were once aliens in your own land and where our 

Savior told us in Saint Matthew’s gospel ‘‘to welcome the stranger 

for what you do for the least of my brethren you do for me.’’ 

It is from this unique perspective, Mr. Chairman, and while acknowledging its vast complexities, we look at immigration through 

a simple lens. While immigration has social, economic, and legal 

aspects which must be addressed in any reform legislation, from 

the perspective of Catholic teaching immigration is ultimately a 

humanitarian issue. The axis around which its other aspects 

should resolve. 

In our view immigration laws ultimately must be just by how 

they impact the basic dignity and God-given rights to the human 

person. 

Let me outline for you today, Mr. Chairman, very briefly what 

we believe are the elements needed to ensure that any immigration 

reform legislation considered by the Committee meets this standard. These recommendations are outlined in more detail in my 

written testimony. 

First, we must bring the undocumented population in this country out of the shadows and give them a chance over time to achieve 

permanent residency and citizenship. 

11 

Second, we must preserve family unity by strengthening family 

based immigration which has served our Nation so well for decades. Waiting times for families to reunite legally in our country 

must be reduced. 

Third, we must create legal avenues for migration so that migrant workers who labor in so many important industries in our 

Nation are able to enter the country legally and in a safe and orderly fashion. This would help reduce the high number of migrant 

deaths we see each year on our southern border. 

Fourth, we must give immigrants their day in court consistent 

with American values by restoring due process protections removed 

in 1996 legislation. Asylum seekers and refugees should also receive special consideration. 

Finally, we must work with our neighboring countries in the 

international community to address the root causes of immigration 

such as economic inequities so that immigrants and their families 

ultimately can remain in their home countries and support their 

families in dignity. At a minimum, we must not as an economic 

super power pursue international economic and trade policies 

which leave persons in poor countries without the means to support 

their families. 

While these recommendations do not reflect the totality of our 

concerns, they are areas that at a minimum the U.S. Bishops believe should be addressed in reform legislation. 

Mr. Chairman, I must also address concerns that many Americans, including Catholics, have concerning the rule of law and how 

it applies to immigration. In truth it’s the Church’s position in 

favor of reform seeks to restore the rule of law and provide order 

and legality to an otherwise chaotic system. Our nation requires an 

immigration system that joins legal immigration with our longterm economic needs, the principle of family unity and basic 

human rights. This will help restore the rule of law to our immigration system. Now our system accomplishes none of these—none 

of these goals as you yourself pointed out a little while ago. 

Our democracy was founded on the premise that unjust and unworkable laws should be changed for the common good of all. In 

this vein we call on our elected officials, not to base their immigration policies on political views, but to work together for a just and 

lasting solution in the best interest of our Nation. 

The Bishops of the United States are hopeful that the national 

debate on immigration will focus on the many contributions that 

immigrants make to our Nation and not scapegoat them for unrelated economic or social challenges we face. 

I ask the Subcommittee today to help ensure that the coming debate refrains from labeling and dehumanizing our brothers and sisters which the Chairman mentioned so eloquently earlier. While we 

may disagree on the substance and merits of a position, we should 

never disagree that the conversation should remain respectful. 

As our elected officials, it is your opportunity and responsibility 

to lead our Nation toward a humane and just economic system— 

immigration system—which both restores the rule of law and respects the inherent human dignity of the person created by our creator. 

12 

We know it will be a difficult challenge. It will require patience 

and forbearance. And I tell you today that the Catholic Church 

stands ready to assist in this important and historic effort so that 

together we can help to restore with out brothers here and the 

other churches that are so joined vitally with us. We can join to 

restore America’s tradition as a nation of immigrants founded on 

the values of fairness, cooperation, and opportunity. 

Thank you very much. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Cardinal McCarrick appears as a 

submission for the record.] 

STATEMENT OF THE REVEREND SAMUEL RODRIGUEZ, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL HISPANIC CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE, SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 

Rev. RODRIGUEZ. Mr. Chairman, Senators, I am honored to be 

here. 

Embedded within the fabric of the American faith community 

lies a clarion call and a prophetic supplication for national unity 

accompanied by an alignment of our core values. Values that include both security and compassion, the rule of law in welcoming 

the stranger, mercy and justice. 

The lack of comprehensive immigration reform has created a reality where our borders are yet fully secured and the immigrant 

families along with the entire Hispanic/American community we 

find ourselves facing racial profiling, discrimination and a hostile, 

ethnically polarized environment not seen since the days prior to 

the successes of the Civil Rights movement. For at the end of the 

day this is not a political issue but rather one of moral and spiritual imperative. An issue of justice firmly grounded on biblical 

truth. 

In scripture the number 12 emerges as the foundational pillar of 

the Nation of Israel and as the initial followers of Jesus Christ. My 

prayer is that this Congress remembers another 12; 12 million people living in the shadows, 12 million hiding in fear, 12 million without rights, without a nation, without legal covering, 12 million not 

knowing if today is the day that they will be separated from their 

children, 12 million people living in a land without the opportunity 

of ever experiencing the fullness of life, embracing the hope of liberty, or pursuing the promise of happiness. Yet, these 12 million 

people carry one commodity. And that commodity is hope. 

Hope that this President and members of this Congress that ignited a movement and ushered in change will bring down the walls 

of political expediency and incorporate with an immigration reform 

the bridge to assimilation and a pathway to the American dream. 

Hope that this Congress who stands committed to saving the auto 

industries, our banks, homeowners and health care will similarly 

apply that saving grace and spirit to these 12 million souls. Hope 

and faith that this Congress will pass comprehensive immigration 

reform. 

We are 25,434 churches. We stand committed in framing the 

moral imperative for comprehensive immigration reform by reconciling both Leviticus 19, treating the stranger amongst us as one 

of our own, and Romans 13, respecting the rule of law. 

13 

Let us be clear, Hispanic Christians stand committed to that 

message, the message of the cross, one that is both vertical and 

horizontal. And as we deal with immigration reform, via the same 

prism, we humbly encourage Congress to finally pass and sign into 

law legislation that will protect our borders, put an end to all illegal immigration. Create a market-driven guest worker program, 

and an avenue that facilitates a way by which millions already 

here that lack the legal status can end—can earn such a status in 

a manner that reflects the Judeo-Christian value system this nation was founded upon. 

But here is the challenge. Can we reconcile Leviticus 19 and Romans 13? Can we repudiate xenophobia and nativism rhetoric? Can 

we push back on the extremes both on the right and the left and 

converge around the nexus of the center cross where righteousness 

meets justice and border security meets compassion, where common sense meets common ground. The fact of the matter is that 

these immigrants are God-fearing, hard-working, family-loving children of God who reflect the values of our Founding Fathers and 

embrace the very tenets of the American Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights. 

Our desire, let me be clear, is for every immigrant in America 

to become a productive citizen. To demonstrate proficiency in the 

English language, to embrace the core values of the American idea 

and realize the American dream. 

Finally, we understand that every day that passes without comprehensive immigration reform adds tarnish to the soul of our Nation. The question arises, can this Nation be saved? Let us save 

this Nation. Not by providing amnesty, but by providing an earned 

pathway to citizenship. In the name of justice, in the name of righteousness, in the name of the Divine, I encourage this Congress to 

pass comprehensive immigration reform. By doing so we will protect our borders. We will protect all of our families, we will protect 

our values, and then, and only then, can we truly protect the 

American dream. 

Thank you. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Rev. Samuel Rodriguez appears as a 

submission for the record.] 

STATEMENT OF JAMES TOLLE, SENIOR PASTOR, THE CHURCH 

ON THE WAY, VAN NUYS, CALIFORNIA 

Mr. TOLLE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Cornyn, thank you, 

Senator—thank you Senator Sessions. 

I am extremely heartened about this meeting and the topic of immigration reform. It is one that is important, one of the top three 

or four most important ones that we face as a country. For the past 

five years I have been coming to Washington to visit Congressional 

leaders on this very topic. I have visited with the DNC, the RNC. 

Unfortunately the legislation in previous years has never been 

passed. I hope today, I pray today, marks a new beginning. 

And with you, Senator Schumer, I say this is the right time. I 

agree with you that this is the time. 

14 

The consequences of our previous failures are readily visible to 

people like myself who try to treat people as one’s neighbor. I was 

instructed by Christ to love my neighbor as myself. 

Young Hispanic men and women whom I pastor, some are legal 

and some are illegal. I pastor over 10,000 Hispanics, most of them 

without documentation. I pastor equal amounts of English-speaking people. These young men and women of undocumented status 

have a paradox. They are caught in a legal paradox. In California 

they can go to institutions of higher learning, but once they graduate they cannot get into the legal workforce. And so their education cannot be used. They have little place to implement their 

skills, talents, and abilities. 

Fifteen percent of the 12 million that we describe as undocumented immigrants, or 1.8 millions, are children who came here 

from their countries of origin with their parents. They have no official status. The children in my congregation who have grown up of 

documented workers or residents are pilots and school teachers, 

they are police officers and some of them are even working up here 

on the Hill in Congressional offices. Others serve in the military. 

Some of them are customs agents, many of them are athletes and 

entertainers and small business owners. But unfortunately those 

same groupings of people have friends in my own congregation who 

have also graduated from college and cannot participate in our 

workforce. 

Ten percent of undocumented students out of our high schools go 

on to college whereas 50 percent of the children of resident or citizen Hispanics go on to college. That’s a big, big disparitive. 

So I would suggest that we find a solution so that we can improve the lot of these young men and women who have come to this 

country, through no choice of their own, but are caught in a paradox. 

Other consequences are obviously visible. There have been raids 

close to my church building of recent date where Hispanic citizens 

have been taken into custody and they have had to wait while their 

documentation has been certified as being true. Unfortunately, 

these legal residents and citizens have had to wait while our cherished value of innocent until proven guilty was applied to their situation. 

We need immigration reform. Criminals in our community continue to exploit and take advantage of the undocumented immigrant. 

In seeking comprehensive immigration reform I am motivated by 

the phrase in the Declaration of Independence which states that all 

men are created equal with certain unalienable rights. 

‘‘Unalienable rights’’ are those human rights which transcend law. 

We all have them. We have all been given them by God. 

Everyone agrees that a Federal misdemeanor law has been broken by an undocumented immigrant. However, the overwhelming 

majority of the undocumented immigrant population in this country are law-abiders. They are not criminals as many suggest. Their 

guilt is that of answering the unalienable rights, voice embedded 

deep within their consciousness in much the same way as millions 

of Irish, Italian, or German, or Polish, or English immigrants have 

done all throughout our rich history. 

15 

In my opinion, these people are no different than the rest of us. 

They want to obey law. The safety that this immigrant seeks in our 

country, for they seek safety, is proof of their true appreciation for 

law rather than the other way around. In my opinion, the rule of 

law which we wish to be upheld by the incoming immigrants has 

just as equally been violated by business owners who have opened 

wide their arms and used them for subpar jobs and substandard 

wages. 

I offer that the rule of law should not have these glaring inconsistencies and contradictions. As a faith leader I have responded to 

the instruction of scripture. My pursuit of comprehensive immigration reform comes from Leviticus which states, ‘‘the stranger who 

dwells with you shall be unto you as one born among you and you 

shall love him as yourself.’’ The Prophet Malachi further admonishes, ‘‘every believer to not turn away the alien.’’ Jesus’ instructions were, ‘‘to invite the stranger to come in.’’ Jesus ultimately 

adds his confirmation to that of Isaiah’s when he said, ‘‘make sure 

that you proclaim liberty to all.’’ 

Thank you. 

Chairman SCHUMER. I want to thank every one of you. 

This was powerful testimony. I hope that my colleagues will either read it, or better, see it as these are recorded, at least internally here. And I thank all of you for caring so much and for eloquent words that combine both our religious and our secular culture and unity as Americans. So thank you. 

I have a few questions that everyone can answer, and then a few 

for different individuals. 

First, to each of the panelists, because you each represent, maybe 

not Mr. Gerson, he represents the people at his institute, but to the 

other four, maybe he doesn’t even represent everyone at his institute. But to the other four, how many of your colleagues would you 

say agree with your views on immigration? Do you know of specific 

leaders who are not here today who would like to be. And let’s start 

with Pastor Anderson. 

Mr. ANDERSON. We actually had a vote today of the leadership 

of the National Association of Evangelicals and on this resolution 

there was no dissent. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Wow. How many people voted? 

Mr. ANDERSON. I think on the board there are about 75. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Wow. 

Mr. ANDERSON. But these represent the heads of denominations. 

The endorsements here are the Assemblies of God and the Church 

of the Nazarene and denominations that are the main center of 

evangelicalism in America. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Thank you, Pastor. Cardinal. 

Cardinal MCCARRICK. My testimony was the testimony prepared 

and supported by the United States Conference of Catholic 

Bishops. So there are 300 active bishops and about 120 of us retired, old geezers, but the position has been—— 

Chairman SCHUMER. Neither word is true in your case. 

Cardinal MCCARRICK. You are very kind. The position has been 

clear in the last few years and I would say there is a unanimous 

acceptance of our enthusiastic support for what you are trying to 

do, sir. 

16 

Chairman SCHUMER. Thank you. Reverend. 

Rev. RODRIGUEZ. My statement comes with the full endorsement 

of the Hispanic National Association of Evangelicals in our 25,000 

plus churches. 

Chairman SCHUMER. And Pastor Tolle. 

Mr. TOLLE. Senator, I don’t sit here in any official capacity today. 

But I have been in charge of all the Hispanic churches in America 

for our denomination and they obviously would endorse this fully. 

I have also been a past director of Fourscore Missions with over 

50,000 churches. I would just venture a guess that 75 percent 

would stand fully in support of comprehensive immigration reform. 

Chairman SCHUMER. And let me ask each of you this, do you 

think there are some religious leaders who do not speak out in 

favor of immigration reform particularly to their congregants for 

fear of reprisal from the congregation or fear of disfavor or anything like that? Tell me what you think. Anybody. Reverend. 

Rev. RODRIGUEZ. Absolutely. There’s a disconnect between the 

pulpit and the pews, particularly in non-ethnic congregations. 

That’s why today’s resolution by the National Association of 

Evangelicals is historic. This is no longer a Latino thing or a Hispanic church issue, now it’s the collective evangelical community 

saying, we’re in favor of comprehensive immigration reform. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Pastor Anderson. 

Mr. ANDERSON. Well, yes, of course there are people that disagree and I don’t know what their numbers would be. And there 

are pastors who would be reluctant to speak to this. Not so much 

over the moral issue, actually, rather avoiding the politicization of 

the issue and that’s where the fear is, not a fear of their constituency. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Right. Okay. Let me ask you this, some religious leaders—well, you answered most of the questions that I 

have which is very, very good. Maybe for any of you, I have this 

for Pastor Anderson, but it could go for anyone. There are those 

who say that the scriptures written in a very different historical 

time cannot inform U.S. immigration policy in the 21st century. 

What do you think of that view? Cardinal. 

Cardinal MCCARRICK. Well, I think the scriptures are written for 

all times because they’re written for human beings. They are—they 

are based on the inherent dignity of the human person. That 

doesn’t change no matter what modernity comes into life. And basically, I think all oppositions are based on the fact that we are dealing with our brothers and sisters. We are one human family and 

we have to take care of each other. That’s where we’re all coming 

from, sir. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Anyone else? 

Mr. TOLLE. I believe that the scriptures teach us how to morally 

live and this is an issue of morality. And I think that that’s an opportunistic interpretation of scripture, sir. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Right. Let me ask you this question, because, again, we have the issue which I think a few of you mentioned of amnesty. And so I hear people who come up to me, as 

somebody who has been active in this area, and say, Senator Schumer, I would not mind if we legalize the people who are currently 

illegal or provide a path to citizenship. I just want people to admit 

17 

that they know they did something that was wrong, and get right 

with the law by paying their debt to society, working, paying taxes, 

and then, of course, get a Green Card and become a citizen. I’ve 

heard this enough times. It’s had an effect on my thinking. Do you 

think that more Americans would embrace the cause of immigration reform if they knew that there would be some recognition of 

wrongdoing on the part of the immigrant as part of the legalization 

process? 

Mr. TOLLE. I have found that most immigrants readily recognize 

that violation. What I have found is in the politicizing of this, is 

that people want to make one guilt bigger than other guilts and 

make this into something that is extremely larger in its payment 

to society; larger than the infraction is. I do believe that we do 

need to maintain security in our borders to stem the flow of massive amounts of entry of people so that we can maintain a balanced 

economy. There are many things that we need to address. However, I don’t think that we have a situation where there is anything, but maybe political situation in nature. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Thanks, Pastor. Now they’ve just called a 

vote, so we have about 15 or 20 minutes to vote. I think we could 

give every member a first round of five minutes and then either 

come back or we could submit questions in writing. So I know some 

of our guests have places to go. So I think that the second way 

would be the best way to do it. 

So let me call on Senator Cornyn. And for a rare time I obeyed 

the 5-minute rule. So I will ask everybody else to do it too. 

Senator CORNYN. I think this is a fascinating discussion. It’s kind 

of—I was fascinated, I think, Pastor Anderson, by I think you said 

that Christians are instructed to be obedient to the law and in Romans 13, submit to authorities. I happen to be a Christian. That’s 

an article of my faith as well. 

I guess the question I would have is, many of the violations of 

our immigration laws have put immigrants in a terrible situation. 

I recounted some of those earlier where many immigrants find 

themselves victims of serial criminal activities because of their initial error in entering the country illegally. So certainly you are not 

saying that the laws—that the immigration laws are unimportant 

when you say it’s not an absolute principle? Could you explain 

that? 

Mr. ANDERSON. Yes, I would say that we have to be cautious in 

saying that all laws should always be obeyed because we know that 

there are countries where there are unjust laws. So, it’s not absolute in that regard. And there are thresholds here. So Senator 

Schumer just admitted that he goes over the 5 minutes. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. ANDERSON. And I would like to see him admit to the guilt 

before we move on, you know, to the next testimony. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. ANDERSON. But that’s a low threshold infraction. And I think 

that—I am not saying it is unimportant. It is extremely important. 

And to tie your question to what Senator Schumer said earlier, 

there are people who have knowingly broken the law, but there are 

people who came across our borders who were 3 weeks old who did 

not knowingly break the law. So it’s just difficult to give a comVerDate Nov 24 2008 08:30 May 11, 2010 Jkt 056073 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\56073.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
18 

prehensive answer to what seems like a simple question. But it 

really isn’t that simple. 

Senator CORNYN. Well, I don’t think it’s that simple either. And 

I’ve heard some suggest—we’ve heard the citation of Leviticus, taking the stranger, and as if violating our immigration laws was 

somehow not important. But all of you would agree it’s important 

for everyone, to the extent of their ability, to comply with our laws; 

correct? 

Mr. ANDERSON. I would say it is very important and we need to 

provide means for people to rectify the infringement that they have 

committed. 

Senator CORNYN. Right. 

Mr. ANDERSON. But they need to be reasonable in fair ways of 

rectifying that. 

Senator CORNYN. Fair enough. Many immigrants who illegally 

enter the country also employ identity theft and document fraud 

claiming the Social Security numbers of others so they can get employment. And there are other sort of variations on that theme of 

people who commit other crimes while they’re here illegally in the 

country. And those who have had their day in court and are subject 

to final removal orders, but who then go underground and never 

leave, never comply with that lawful order of the court. 

And then there are those who after they have left the country 

and been deported by immigration authorities reenter on a serial 

basis. And we know, unfortunately, that there are illegal immigrants, like American citizens who are born here who commit serious driving offenses, drunk driving offenses, sexual offenses, and 

the like. And just so I understand, if I understand what you are 

saying, please, I am not putting words in your mouth, you’re saying 

that the punishment ought to match the crime and the crime that 

we were talking about initially at least is illegal entry into the 

United States or entering legally and then overstaying a visa. You 

are not suggesting that any of these other sort of more serious 

crimes ought to be treated on the same basis as a visa overstay or 

entering the country without a visa? 

Mr. ANDERSON. No, absolutely not. You know, I am saying that 

there are different thresholds and that we need to be reasonable 

and fair on what those thresholds are. 

However, when it’s egregious breaking of the law, when it’s the 

commission of a felony, then that needs to be—the law needs to be 

heavy-handed in dealing with that type of infraction. 

Senator CORNYN. I appreciate your comment and I am going to 

ask—Mr. Gerson, I’m going to ask you a question. Unfortunately 

our time is so constrained here. I hope we can do more of this over 

time and not just be limited to here. 

My questions are really trying to shine a little light on the fact 

that there is no sort of one situation. This is a complex situation. 

But I would like to ask you about what you said about the importance of a guest-worker program, Mr. Gerson. I believe, Reverend 

Rodriguez, you mentioned as an important component to you of a 

comprehensive bill. 

Mr. GERSON. Related to the earlier discussion, I think laws that 

forbid basic human aspirations get generally violated. I think laws 

that violate basic economic principles get generally violated. We do 

19 

have a major problem with illegal immigration. And there are implications to that for the rule of law and security and a lot of other 

things. But it exists because there is a market demand for a certain type of labor in the United States. 

Unless you have a system, a legal system, that approximates and 

meets some element of that demand, you are going to have a generally ignored system. And that, I think, is the importance of a 

guest-worker system; to allow people to come who don’t want to 

come here permanently, but want to come and contribute in ways 

that are important to the American economy and return. 

I actually believe related to the earlier question that it’s also— 

combining that with a difficult but genuine and realistic path to 

citizenship is really the only way to determine who is in our country. It’s the best way to determine—you know, to control our borders is to make sure that we have a regular way to meet a labor 

demand that’s a genuine demand that nobody can deny. And also 

to accommodate the aspirations of people that want to become 

American citizens. 

Senator CORNYN. I know my time is expired, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator SESSIONS. We don’t want to miss this vote, that’s what 

they pay us to do here. 

Well, Mr. Gerson, you know, we’ve got a growing unemployment 

rate that may hit 10 percent. And if I had a criticism of a man you 

and I both admire, President Bush, who I think is a fabulous person, his phrase, well, basically he was heard to say to the world, 

‘‘as long as there is a willing worker and a willing employer, we’re 

happy.’’ That was never a legitimate leadership statement in my 

view. I think it undermined—it sent a message that made people 

believe if they could succeed in entering our country illegally, 1 day 

we’re going to—we don’t care really, and sooner or later we’ll just 

make you legal. And so the deal about comprehensive immigration 

reform is no little matter. What we are talking about is policy. 

What government policy—— 

Chairman SCHUMER. Senator, could we come back on that? I 

know—— 

Senator SESSIONS. Well, I would just—thank you, Mr. Chairman, 

we should go vote. And thank all of you for coming. I do have something. I’m not sure I’ll get back, but I have read almost all of your 

statements and it is something that I am going to try to internalize 

as we go forward with this debate and make sure that we don’t 

cross the line in unfairly dealing with people who are here illegally, 

but who are children of God and who deserve respect and compassion by all of us. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman SCHUMER. Well, I think that’s an appropriate way to 

end. I want to thank our witnesses. This is going to have real effect. And I know that many of you went out of your way to be here. 

I wish we had more time, but we have the vote, and I know people 

have to catch airplanes. So I thank you for being here. And your 

words will mean a lot, not only to the three of us, I think, but to 

all of our colleagues. 

The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:14 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

[Questions and answers and submission for the record follow.] 

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