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STRENGTHENING THE FEDERAL ACQUISITION 

WORKFORCE: GOVERNMENT-WIDE LEADERSHIP 

AND INITIATIVES 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, 

THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE, AND THE 

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA SUBCOMMITTEE 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

AUGUST 5, 2009 

Available via http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security 

and Governmental Affairs 

( 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois 

MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

BRANDON L. MILHORN, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, THE FEDERAL 

WORKFORCE, AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA SUBCOMMITTEE 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois 

MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

LISA M. POWELL, Staff Director 

EVAN W. CASH, Professional Staff Member 

SHELLEY K. FINLAYSON, Legislative Fellow 

JENNIFER A. HEMINGWAY, Minority Staff Director 

TARA SHAW, Minority Counsel 

BENJAMIN B. RHODESIDE, Chief Clerk 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 1 

Senator Voinovich ............................................................................................. 5 

WITNESSES 

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 5, 2009 

Hon. Jeffrey D. Zients, Deputy Director for Management, and the Nation’s 

Chief Performance Officer, Office of Management and Budget ....................... 3 

Nancy H. Kichak, Associate Director for Strategic Human Resources Policy, 

U.S. Office of Personnel Management ................................................................ 7 

David A. Drabkin, Acting Chief Acquisition Officer, U.S. General Service 

Administration ..................................................................................................... 8 

Hon. Elaine C. Duke, Under Secretary for Management, U.S. Department 

of Homeland Security .......................................................................................... 19 

William P. McNally, Assistant Administrator for Procurement, and Deputy 

Chief Acquisition Officer, National Aeronautics and Space Administration .. 20 

John R. Bashista, Deputy Director, Office of Procurement and Assistance 

Management, U.S. Department of Energy ......................................................... 22 

Deidre A. Lee, Executive Vice President of Federal Affairs and Operations, 

Professional Services Council .............................................................................. 24 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Bashista, John R.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 22 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 81 

Drabkin, David A.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 8 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 56 

Duke, Hon. Elaine C.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 19 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 62 

Kichak, Nancy K.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 50 

Lee, Deidre A.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 24 

Prepared statement with attachments ........................................................... 87 

McNally, William P.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 20 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 76 

Zients, Hon. Jeffrey D.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 3 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 43 

APPENDIX 

Background .............................................................................................................. 102 

Project Management Institute, prepared statement ............................................. 112 

Questions and Responses to questions: 

Mr. Zients .......................................................................................................... 115 

Ms. Kichak ........................................................................................................ 119 

Ms. Duke ........................................................................................................... 123 

Mr. McNally ...................................................................................................... 128 

Ms. Lee .............................................................................................................. 130 

(1) 

STRENGTHENING THE FEDERAL 

ACQUISITION WORKFORCE: 

GOVERNMENT-WIDE LEADERSHIP 

AND INITIATIVES 

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 5, 2009 

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT

MANAGEMENT, THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE,

AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA,

OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS,

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m., in 

room SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Daniel K. 

Akaka, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Akaka and Voinovich. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA 

Senator AKAKA. I call this hearing of the Subcommittee on Oversight of Government Management, the Federal Workforce, and the 

District of Columbia to order. 

Aloha and good afternoon everyone, and especially to our witnesses. 

Today’s hearing is a continuation of this Subcommittee’s oversight of acquisition management across the Federal Government. 

In particular, this hearing is focused on the shortage of acquisition 

professionals to manage and oversee Federal contract spending. 

Federal spending on contracts has grown dramatically, exceeding $500 billion in fiscal year 2008. At the same time, the size of the 

Federal acquisition workforce has remained nearly constant, putting agency missions and taxpayer funds at risk. In addition, the 

Federal Government is facing a surge of expected retirements. The 

Federal Acquisition Institute reports that over half of the acquisition workforce will be eligible to retire in the next 8 years, further 

eroding an already understaffed Federal contracting workforce. 

Stories of contractor waste, fraud, and abuse, as well as ineffective government management of contracts continue to dominate the 

headlines. From massive, failed contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan 

to ongoing delays and problems with the Department of Homeland 

Security’s (DHS) SBInet virtual fence and cameras, it is clear that 

the Federal Government must improve its contract management. 

Understaffed and without adequate training, the Federal acquisition workforce is often at the center of the storm of blame. 

2 

Augmenting the ranks and improving the skills of the Federal 

acquisition workforce is in the best interest of everyone involved: 

The Federal acquisition workforce, contractors, the government, 

and taxpayers. This requires two areas of reform. 

First, we must improve government-wide leadership and coordination of the development of Federal acquisition professionals. The 

agencies represented here today are playing important roles in 

shaping the acquisition workforce; however, I am concerned that 

they are not providing the necessary leadership and coordination. 

I look forward to hearing from the first panel about the steps 

they are taking to provide their expertise to agencies throughout 

the government and to hold all agencies accountable for recruiting, 

training, and retaining highly-qualified acquisition professionals. 

In response to questions about leadership, we often hear that the 

Office of Federal Procurement Policy (OFPP) is the governmentwide leader. However, if OFPP is to lead these important efforts, 

then its role must be enhanced. OFPP does not have the authority 

or the resources needed to effectively lead or enforce governmentwide requirements. Currently, OFPP lacks an administrator, and 

has only 12 of the 16 authorized positions filled. 

To address the need for coordinated acquisition workforce efforts, 

Congress created a new executive level position at OFPP, the Associate Administrator for Acquisition Workforce Programs. Unfortunately, since its creation, this position has remained vacant. This 

is very troubling, and I hope to hear today what steps are being 

taken to fill this position. 

Second, beyond leadership and coordination, we will focus today 

on the government’s ability to recruit, train, and retain qualified 

acquisition workforce professionals. In particular, the recruitment 

of qualified acquisition professionals to the government has been a 

consistent problem. Candidates complain of complex, lengthy hiring 

processes and poor communication. This leads many of the best 

candidates to accept offers from other employers. 

My bill, the Federal Hiring Process Improvement Act, S. 736, 

which I introduced with Senator Voinovich, would help address this 

problem by streamlining the Federal recruitment and hiring process. I am pleased to note that the full Committee approved the bill 

last week. 

There are several new initiatives underway to improve the acquisition workforce. Some of these initiatives include new mentoring 

and intern programs, the use of flexible hiring authorities, increased college recruitment efforts, and improvements to the acquisition workforce career track. I look forward to hearing more about 

these efforts today. 

Despite these efforts, agencies may not have the tools they need 

to hire, train, and retain the acquisition workforce necessary to 

achieve their missions. Some agencies, including two of those on 

our second panel, spend upwards of 90 percent of their budget on 

contracts, underscoring the need for efficient contract management. 

The new Administration is facing many dramatic challenges, and 

the American people expect strong leadership from the Federal 

Government. We must act now to ensure that mission-critical purchases are made and overseen by an effective acquisition workforce. We must bring in new talent, we must train and empower 

3 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Zients appears in the Appendix on page 43. 

them, and we must preserve institutional knowledge within our acquisition community. 

On our first panel, it is my pleasure to welcome Jeffrey Zients, 

Deputy Director for Management, and the Nation’s Chief Performance Officer, at the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), 

Nancy Kichak, Associate Director for the Human Resources Policy 

at the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), and David Drabkin, 

Acting Chief Acquisition Officer at General Services Administration 

(GSA). 

It is the custom of this Subcommittee to swear in all witnesses. 

So, may I ask you to please stand and raise your right hand? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 

this Subcommittee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 

the truth, so help you, God? 

Mr. ZIENTS. I do. 

Ms. KICHAK. I do. 

Mr. DRABKIN. I do. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Let the record note that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

Before we begin, I want to let you know that although your oral 

statement is limited to 5 minutes, your full, written statement will 

be included in the record. 

Mr. Zients, will you please proceed with your statement? 

TESTIMONY OF HON. JEFFREY D. ZIENTS,1 DEPUTY DIRECTOR 

FOR MANAGEMENT, AND THE NATION’S CHIEF PERFORMANCE OFFICER, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET 

Mr. ZIENTS. Thank you, Chairman Akaka. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the Administration’s 

commitment to strengthening the Federal acquisition workforce. 

As you mentioned, I was confirmed last month as Deputy Director for Management at OMB and as Chief Performance Officer of 

the Federal Government. It is my responsibility to help lead initiatives to improve the performance of government and achieve more 

value for the taxpayer. I believe that a sound acquisition system 

is critical to a high-performing government and that a strong, wellequipped acquisition workforce is the backbone of our acquisition 

system. The quality of their skills and judgment is closely tied to 

whether we achieve the best results from the more than $500 billion in contracting agencies undertake annually. 

In his March 4, 2009 memorandum on government contracting, 

the President called on agencies with guidance from OMB to eliminate waste and maximize the value achieved from their contracts. 

To implement this mandate, OMB recently directed agencies to develop aggressive savings plans to reduce the use of high-risk contracts and to take other steps to improve acquisition outcomes. Success will depend on the capability and capacity of the workforce to 

achieve these results. 

OMB’s Office of Federal Procurement Policy (OFPP), and its 

partner agencies have taken a number of noteworthy actions to 

strengthen the acquisition workforce in civilian agencies. However, 

we believe a stronger, more strategic approach is required to 

4 

achieve sustainable improvements in the capability and capacity of 

the workforce. 

This Administration’s support for better contracting and for the 

acquisition workforce is focused on three, broad areas. First, 

strengthening acquisition workforce planning. Second, improving 

training and development. And third, increasing recruitment and 

retention. 

Let me talk about each of these briefly and the steps we are taking to support this critical workforce. 

First, acquisition workforce planning remains largely a tactical 

exercise, not a strategic process. Agencies focus on filling vacancies 

rather than developing longer-term plans that project needs and 

provide for further succession planning. We have not historically 

provided meaningful support for helping agencies align their workforce capabilities and capacity with their acquisition requirements. 

Congress recognized this shortcoming when it called for an acquisition workforce development strategic plan for civilian agencies. 

OFPP is leading this effort to provide a more strategic framework for developing the workforce. We are in the process of working with agencies to help them define their acquisition requirements, measure their workforce capacities, and determine their 

current and future needs. 

OFPP will complete this first phase of planning in October. This 

plan will identify recruitment and development needs, target training priorities, recommend changes to our certification programs, 

and address the planning steps that will be required to sustain 

these efforts. We also recognize that the needs of the workforce are 

not static. We are establishing a more robust, ongoing process for 

civilian agencies in OFPP to evaluate progress and continually reassess needs. 

Additionally, Senator, I agree with your opening comment, and 

I do look forward to working with the administrator of GSA, once 

confirmed, to quickly fill the associate administrator of OFPP for 

acquisition workforce programs. This individual will coordinate 

strategic workforce planning efforts across agencies. 

The second area of focus is improving training and development. 

Agencies now have better access to tools and information that allow 

them to target their training and development efforts. 

The 2008 competency survey on civilian agencies provides practical information about the proficiencies in the development areas 

of our workforce. OFPP’s Federal Acquisition Certification Programs provide a framework for measuring and managing the 

achievement of these competencies. As agencies develop a better 

understanding of their workforce capabilities through their workforce planning, they will invest more in training and development. 

To ensure that these investment dollars are well spent, we will develop tools to better evaluate the impact our training efforts have 

on our ability to meet performance goals. 

Finally, we need to focus on increasing recruitment and retention. 

The civilian agencies acquisition workforce did grow by 6.5 percent in 2008. This growth was facilitated by the joint efforts of the 

Federal Acquisition Intern Coalition and OPM. Agencies can now 

issue streamline job announcements and can use a central register 

5 

of new applicants to fill entry-level positions more quickly. We will 

expand the use of this model to attract midlevel contracting professionals. We are also making progress in retaining more of our contracting professionals. 

In 2008, fewer people left the contracting community than in any 

of the previous 5 years. 

At the same time, we must include stronger retention strategies 

in our human capital planning. These strategies include building 

communities, expanding award and recognition programs, and facilitating the sharing of best practices. 

You have asked for my views on the Federal Hiring Process Improvement Act of 2009. 

First, I would like to thank the Subcommittee Members, and, in 

particular, recognize you, Senator Akaka and Senator Voinovich, 

for your longstanding commitment to the workforce. Improving the 

Federal hiring process is a principle strongly supported by the Administration, and we share your interest in making significant improvements. 

OPM is leading the government’s hiring reform with strong support from OMB, and agencies are currently implementing initiatives that closely mirror many of those that you mentioned that are 

in the proposed act. 

While we support the intent of this legislation, we believe the 

flexibility needs to facilitate innovative and creative solutions can 

best be achieved through administrative means and focused leadership. 

In closing, we appreciate the Subcommittee’s leadership on acquisition workforce issues, and welcome the opportunity to work 

with you as we take a more strategic approach and build on our 

progress to improve the capacity and capability of the acquisition 

workforce. 

I will look forward to answering any questions you have. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Zients. 

At this point, I would like to give our Ranking Member an opportunity to make his opening statement. Senator Voinovich. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR VOINOVICH 

Senator VOINOVICH. Thank you, Senator Akaka. I, first of all, appreciate the fact that you are calling this meeting today. 

The Federal Government has spent more than $500 billion in fiscal year 2008 to procure goods and services, and that amount continues to rise and has more than doubled since fiscal year 2002. So, 

we have had a lot more activity than we had in the past. But, despite the increase in procurement spending, adequate attention is 

not being given to the needs of those responsible for overseeing and 

managing the procurement process. 

As the Government Accountability Office noted in its 2009 HighRisk List, ‘‘The Federal acquisition workforce has been experiencing an increasing workload and complexity of responsibilities 

without adequate attention to its size, skills, knowledge, and succession planning.’’ GAO’s concerns are valid. Despite the doubling 

of procurement spending in this decade, the number of individuals 

managing that spending has not increased. Now, that may be 

6 

working harder and smarter and doing more with less, but I doubt 

it. 

The Service Acquisition Reform Act Panel and GAO have both 

noted the need for proper training regarding the complex and frequently-changing Federal contracting environment. Further, according to the Federal Acquisition Institute, more than half of the 

Federal acquisition workforce will be eligible for retirement in 

2018. 

These are all serious issues. When their job is not done well, 

their acquisition programs end up on the GAO High-Risk List, like 

the Department of Energy (doe) and National Aeronautics and 

Space Administration (NASA) Contract Management Programs, or 

their programs are areas of concern for their department’s Inspectors General, like the Department of Homeland Security’s acquisition management activities. Outside the Department of Defense 

(DOD), these three agencies spend the most Federal procurement 

dollars. So, it is alarming that there are so many concerns with the 

procurement activities of these agencies. Well, it is not ‘‘alarming,’’ 

it is just that there is concern about these programs. 

We need to determine the number of people that are needed to 

adequately manage and oversee the Federal procurement process. 

We have to ensure that those personnel are getting the training 

they need to get the job done, and we must ensure that agencies 

have the authorities to recruit and retain the best and brightest 

people. 

And, Mr. Zients, when you talked about building on past efforts 

in this need, and I think that sounds good. 

In 2004, I led efforts to provide NASA with new workforce authorities so NASA could hire the best and brightest for its missions. Among other things, those authorities included recruitment, 

relocation, retention bonuses, term appointments, scholarships, annual leave enhancements, and qualifications paid. 

According to a NASA report from April of this year, those authorities have been, and continue to be, important to building and 

sustaining a high-quality workforce to accomplish the agency’s mission. Unfortunately, for some reason, it has not worked on procurement side. That is the area that is not working. They have done 

a good job elsewhere, but, for some reason, NASA has not made it 

in the area of procurement. 

I am curious as to whether similar authorities are needed across 

the Federal Government to recruit and retain for the acquisition 

workforce. That gets back to the issues that we talked about in my 

office, Mr. Zients. Some of these hiring flexibilities are available to 

certain agencies. Should you look at making more of them available 

across the board to other agencies? 

So, I want to thank you all for being here today, and I look forward to the testimony of Ms. Kichak and Mr. Drabkin. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Senator Voinovich. Ms. 

Kichak, will you please proceed with your testimony? 

7 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Kichak appears in the Appendix on page 50. 

TESTIMONY OF NANCY K. KICHAK,1 ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, 

STRATEGIC HUMAN RESOURCES POLICY, U.S. OFFICE OF 

PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT 

Ms. KICHAK. Chairman Akaka and Senator Voinovich, I appreciate this opportunity to discuss with you the Office of Personnel 

Management’s role in strengthening the Federal acquisition workforce. You also asked me to address OPM’s views and recommendations regarding S. 736, the Federal Hiring Process Improvement 

Act of 2009. 

OPM has been in the forefront of the effort to strengthen the 

Federal Government’s acquisition capacity. We have been collaborating for some time with the Federal Acquisition Institute (FAI) 

and the Office of Federal Procurement Policy at the Office of Management and Budget on initiatives related to this effort. 

In 2007, OPM designated acquisition as a government-wide, mission-critical occupation. As a result, agencies have been required to 

continuously assess their acquisition workforce to assure hiring targets are met and any missing competencies are identified and addressed. OPM’s human capital officers assist with the target setting process as they do for all mission-critical occupations. 

We have been working closely with FAI to support the Federal 

agencies in developing a unified approach to recruit and hire contract specialists at the entry level. Our efforts included branding 

and marketing the acquisition profession through a special, interactive recruiting Web page. OPM helped design recruitment materials, staffed job fairs, and produced two ‘‘Working for America’’ 

commercials to showcase careers in the profession. 

OPM also worked with FAI to pilot the use of the central register 

of prescreened candidates for entry-level contract specialists. We 

streamlined the application process by over 75 percent, wrote the 

job announcements in plain language, eliminated written essaystyle questions, and simplified the assessment process. 

Today, there are approximately 8,000 candidates on the register 

for 36 locations. Since the pilot began, more than 800 applicants 

have been referred to 10 agencies and components. To date, 67 selections have been made, and interest is increasing as knowledge 

of the register grows. 

In addition, there are statutory authorities that allow agencies to 

grant dual compensation waivers to acquisition personnel and to 

use direct hire when agencies are experiencing a severe shortage 

of qualified individuals or a critical hiring need. 

In addition to the steps we have already taken, OPM plans to establish central registers for contract specialists at the GS–9, 11, 

and 12 grade levels using the streamlined vacancy announcement 

template. If the pilot is successful, we will look for ways to fund 

this initiative in the future. 

You also asked me to address S. 736. I appreciate your and Senator Voinovich’s leadership in focusing attention on the persistent 

need to improve our hiring processes in the Federal Government. 

Your sponsorship of this bill sends a clear message that changes 

must be made in the hiring process. 

8 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Drabkin appears in the Appendix on page 56. 

OPM strongly supports the principles embodied in that S. 736, 

making the Federal recruiting and hiring process as transparent, 

efficient, effective, and user-friendly as possible for job applicants 

and for Federal agencies. 

We are already moving ahead on many of the provisions in the 

bill. OPM has designed templates to streamline job announcements 

for more than 20 mission-critical and heavily-recruited occupations. 

We will be directing agencies to use plain language in their job announcements and to remove the requirement for written essay-style 

questions about the applicant’s knowledge, skills, and abilities. We 

developed a roadmap of the hiring process to make it easier for 

agencies to identify opportunities for improvement in their procedures. These initiatives will go a long way toward helping agencies 

reform their processes. 

We are concerned that mandating good agency practices in legislation may result in agencies losing flexibility and the ability to 

adapt to change. The Administration recently sent out memoranda 

to Federal agencies with specific requirements and timeframes for 

Federal hiring reform. 

In short, we believe we can achieve the intended results of S. 736 

by administrative means, by continuing to exercise leadership, and 

through our collaboration with OMB and agencies. 

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this discussion. 

I would be happy to answer any questions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Ms. Kichak. And now we 

will hear from Mr. Drabkin. Your testimony, please. 

TESTIMONY OF DAVID A. DRABKIN,1 ACTING CHIEF ACQUISITION OFFICER, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION 

Mr. DRABKIN. Thank you, Chairman Akaka and Ranking Member Voinovich. It is a pleasure to be back before the Subcommittee, 

and thank you for your invitation to testify before the Subcommittee this afternoon. 

I know you had hoped to speak with our administrator. All of us 

at GSA hoped that you would be speaking to her, as well. Certainly, I did. 

Martha Johnson, as you know, from her confirmation hearing 

and her personal meetings with staff and members, is keenly interested in the acquisition workforce, and, if confirmed, will provide 

the leadership we need to focus on this issue. 

Please also allow me to acknowledge the presence at today’s 

hearing of GSA’s Chief Human Capital Officer (CHCO), Gail 

Lovelace. Gail testified before you last May. 

Ms. Lovelace and I, as the Chief Acquisition Officer (CAO), have 

formed an acquisition workforce steering group in GSA to ensure 

that we aggressively address acquisition workforce issues, recognizing the shared responsibility given by statute to both the CHCO 

and to the CAO. 

You have my approved statement for the record, and in it, I talk 

about both GSA and the government-wide acquisition workforce, 

so, I will take these few minutes to provide a prologue, if you will, 

9 

to that statement concerning the government’s acquisition workforce. 

In looking at issues concerning the government-wide acquisition 

workforce, one cannot do so in isolation any longer. You just cannot 

look at the people by themselves, although, in the final analysis, 

they are the most important part of our acquisition system and 

they prove it day in and day out. 

Our acquisition has evolved since the two seminal pieces of legislation, the Armed Services Procurement Act of 1947 and the Federal Property Administrative Services Act of 1949, governing government acquisition or enacted into law. Then the acquisition and 

the workforce that made it happen was stovepiped between and 

within agencies. 

Today, acquisition is a horizontal function of any successful enterprise, with centralized responsibility and decentralized authority. The Federal marketplace has been moving in that direction, 

although, statutory and regulatory challenges are thrown up occasionally to that movement. 

By the way, when I speak of the ‘‘acquisition workforce,’’ I am 

not talking just about our contracting specialists and contracting 

officers, I am talking about the larger definition of the workforce, 

which includes program managers, contracting officers’ representatives, contracting officers’ technical representatives, and a number 

of other functions that agencies have included in their respective 

definitions of the acquisition workforce, recognizing the importance 

of all the acquisition functions from the time requirements are developed until completion of contract performance and closeout. 

I am also very pleased that before this body we are not engaged 

in denigrating the acquisition workforce by referring to them as 

shoppers. In order to focus on the government’s acquisition workforce, one must do so in the context of the guiding principles for 

our acquisition system, which is defined in the Federal Acquisition 

Regulation (FAR). 

It says in the FAR, and we changed it in 1993, to say that the 

guiding principles of the acquisition system are to satisfy the customer in terms of cost, quality, and timeliness of delivered products 

or services. 

For example, by maximizing use of commercial products and 

services, using contractors who have a track record of successful 

past performance or who demonstrate a current superior ability to 

perform and promoting competition, minimizing administrative operating costs, conducting business with integrity, fairness, and 

openness, and fulfilling public policy objectives. These guiding principles to be met by our system require that we have the right number of acquisition workforce members with the right competencies 

and skills supported by the right tools, policies, and processes to 

obtain the best value for the American citizen. 

The Federal Acquisition Institute, FAI, is the only organization 

that has a government-wide mission of addressing two of the key 

supporting structures to assist Federal agencies in living up to our 

stated guiding principles. Those two, key structures or having the 

right number of acquisition workforce members with the right competencies and skills. GSA has the pleasure of being the managing 

partner for FAI. 

10 

In meeting these two objectives, FAI has evolved since its inception, and now is focusing on modeling itself on a corporate university structure where we relied on trained professionals in adult 

education to develop the training we need based upon our requirements, and then those same adult education specialists delivering 

that training. FAI also conducts research into acquisition-related 

issues, such as our acquisition workforce. 

This evolution is due in no small part to Congress’ creation of the 

Acquisition Workforce Training Fund in the Services Acquisition 

Reform Act of 2003, which provides FAI with additional funds to 

perform its mission. I would be remiss if I did not point out that 

FAI could not be as successful today as it is without the support 

it gets from the partnership with the Defense Acquisition University (DAU). A special thanks to DOD, and, in particular, to the 

President of DAU, Frank Anderson. 

I would not want you to think, however, that this partnership is 

one way. After all, DAU resources are many times those of FAI, 

but FAI contributes significantly to this partnership, as well. 

As we continue our evolution in the acquisition workforce and 

the civilian agencies continue to evolve, there will be even more 

sharing between the two institutions, particularly now, as we have 

expanded the civilian agency definition to include program managers, a functional area DAU has a great deal of expertise in. 

Let me conclude by pointing out again that the acquisition workforce cannot be considered in a vacuum, and that one of the key 

issues in the success of the acquisition workforce is the tools it has 

to accomplish its mission. Sadly, today, those tools are inadequate, 

and, in some cases, nonexistent. It creates an environment where 

acquisition workforce members are successful in spite of the tools 

they possess, not because of them. 

Thank you for this opportunity. I will be glad to answer any 

questions you may have. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Drabkin. 

Mr. Zients, I am pleased to hear you commit to filling the position of Associate Administrator for Acquisition Workforce Programs. You have indicated that the Associate Administrator will 

support strategic workforce planning. 

How do you see that official interacting with the Federal Acquisition Institute, OPM, and other agencies in strengthening the Federal acquisition workforce? 

Mr. ZIENTS. I am sorry, in terms of coordination and interaction? 

Senator AKAKA. Yes. 

Mr. ZIENTS. I do think it is critical that this group here and a 

larger group work very closely together. OFPP taking the lead on 

creating overall direction and guidance for acquisition and the 

workforce set of issues and the strategic workforce planning exercise, which I described, which we are in the middle of, I think is 

a very important lead role that OFPP is planning. At the same 

time, as Mr. Drabkin so elegantly captured, FAI is right at the center of this, helping to implement these policies and guidelines 

through training and education and setting the right certification 

standards. 

So, our partnership with GSA through FAI is critical, and then 

we all agree that recruitment is front and center here, and that we 

11 

made good progress last year, and there is much more progress to 

be made and that OPM plays a central role there. 

So, I think there are clear lead responsibilities here. At the same 

time, I think it is critical that we are all well-coordinated and that 

we also leverage the councils, the Chief Acquisition Officer Council 

and the CHCO, which is the Chief Human Capital Officer councils, 

both of which I have leadership roles on, to make sure that we are 

working closely with our leadership at the agency level to both inform our strategic direction and to ultimately implement these reforms. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. We are looking for that type of senior-level engagement on these issues. 

Mr. Drabkin, as you know, there have been concerns over the 

quality of the training available to acquisition workforce. The Federal Acquisition Institute’s mission, in part, is to provide for training. 

Do you believe that FAI has the leadership and resources it 

needs to effectively fulfill its mission? 

Mr. DRABKIN. As you know, Mr. Chairman, I am a career civil 

servant, and I will not address whether we could use more because 

we can always use more to do our job better. I would point out to 

you that I am not sure the statement is true that the quality of 

training produced by FAI is not sufficient or up to par. In fact, 

under its former director, Karen Pica, who is now in the Office of 

Federal Procurement Policy, and under its current acting director 

and the new director who will come onboard next month, FAI has 

improved dramatically the quality of the coursework that it provides to the Federal acquisition workforce. In addition, through the 

partnership with DAU, we have been able to leverage coursework 

developed at DAU and the Department of Defense and modify it 

where necessary to meet our needs. 

I would tell you that probably the ultimate test of the quality or 

the value of the coursework we provide is the fact that the private 

sector buys the courses that our people take for their own people, 

and that probably is a testament to the fact that we are doing OK. 

That does not mean we cannot do better and we should not; it does 

not mean that we cannot be more responsive and faster in getting 

courses out. We can. And it does not mean we could not use more 

resources, but, at the moment, we are using what we have. 

Senator AKAKA. I asked at the Subcommittee’s hearing last year 

about what steps are being taken to reach out to young people and 

recruit them before they graduate from college and even high 

school. 

Are there efforts underway government-wide to increase students’ interests in Federal acquisition positions? Ms. Kichak. 

Ms. KICHAK. As I said, we did the Working for America commercials that highlighted the acquisition profession. We also have the 

centralized register for entry-level grades 5–7, which is what appeals to folks recently out of college, and that has 8,000 good candidates on it right now. 

So, I think what we are dealing with now is, if you look at who 

is being recruited in the Federal acquisition workforce, half of the 

recruitments are from mid-level folks. When agencies have a vacancy, they would like to get somebody with a lot of experience 

12 

under their belt. Those folks are in limited supply, developing new 

people is very important. Getting these entry-level people in and 

getting them trained is essential, and the training is rigorous. Acquisition is a very complex career. It requires a broad knowledge 

that you cannot pick up easily. You need good training, and, so, it 

takes time. 

I think the applicants are out there. It is trying to get the applicants selected in positions and trained, that is not something that 

can happen overnight. 

Senator AKAKA. Are there any comments from other witnesses? 

Mr. ZIENTS. Senator, this is an area where I have had a lot of 

experience in the private sector because a lot of recruiting was 

straight off of campus, and I think it is an area where we have a 

great opportunity right now. It is one of the few or only benefits 

of this economy, and in my experience, it is all about effort. This 

is like a sales force, if you will. You need to make a lot of sales 

calls to close some clients, and I think we are putting forth a lot 

more effort than we did in the past, and I think we are seeing some 

early success. 

I also believe that the first year is critical in that people straight 

out of school need training, they need mentoring in that first year. 

So, we need to make sure that it is not only recruiting, but it is 

also on boarding and mentoring and that the young, straight-offof-campus intern types have the opportunity to feel as if they are 

part of an organization where they can advance quickly on a merit 

basis. 

So, I think that there is a real window of opportunity right now, 

and I would be in favor of pushing as hard as we possibly can, 

building on the success that we have had today. 

Mr. DRABKIN. And if I may add one more point, and that is I 

think your question, Senator, also goes to what can we do on the 

campuses itself so that the curricula at the campuses provide some 

advanced look into the government procurement system, and, in 

fact, FAI has entered into arrangements with both the National 

Contract Management Association and the National Institute of 

Government Purchasing. This was done while Karen Pica was our 

director. And both of those associations now have student chapters 

located on university campuses. Not a lot yet, but some. 

In addition, GSA has been working with the George Washington 

University School of Law, which, coincidently, is only a block-anda-half from our main building, and we have also begun a program 

working with them, bringing students over while they are in school 

to expose them to our procurement process so that, hopefully, when 

they graduate, they will be interested in seeking a job in government procurement. 

I think that these kinds of programs, along with the college campus recruiting programs that you have just heard about, will improve our ability to get people interested in understanding the 

great opportunities. I mean, where do you go where you can spend 

$10 billion on a program and really have an impact on somebody 

else’s life? You do not find that just anyplace; you find it working 

for us. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much. Senator Voinovich, your 

questions? 

13 

Senator VOINOVICH. Yes, I have a series of questions, and I am 

going to ask all of you to comment. 

This is for Mr. Zients. OMB’s Office of Federal Procurement Policy is responsible for providing direction for government-wide procurement policy regulations, procedures, and also for promoting the 

economy, efficiency, and effectiveness acquisition processes. Additionally, OFPP supports the Chief Acquisition Officers Council, 

working groups, and competitive sourcing contracting with small 

business, human capital, electronic government, performance management, and contingency contracting. 

How can an OFPP staff of about 15 people effectively handle so 

many responsibilities? 

And this is for Mr. Zients and Mr. Drabkin. 

The Federal Acquisition Institute is located in GSA, but receives 

policy direction from the Office of Federal Procurement Policy. 

How do OFPP and GSA collaborate regarding the Federal Acquisition Institute, and do you believe the Federal Acquisition Institute is properly located at GSA? 

Mr. Drabkin, the Federal Acquisition Institute partners with the 

universities to provide training to the acquisition workforce. Are 

there similar partnerships with the universities and so forth? 

Ms. Kichak, Congress created the Chief Human Capital Officers 

Council in 2002 to advise and coordinate agencies’ human resources. What role has CHCO played in addressing the acquisition 

workforce? 

Given the government’s critical need to build its acquisition 

workforce, why has not CHCO worked more closely with the Chief 

Acquisition Officers’ Council? 

And, Mr. Zients, as a midlevel office within OMB, do you believe 

the Office of Federal Procurement has the authority it needs to provide direction and oversight across the government regarding the 

acquisition processes? 

Now, I have to tell you something, there are a bunch of questions 

here. I will talk about this. 

NASA and the Department of Energy have been on the high-risk 

list in this area since 1990, and the comment I have after I went 

over this with my staff, is that this seems to be unbelievable. I 

have seen, from my experience in management, where you can 

have a lot of agencies that are in difficult situations like this and 

if you are really lucky and if you have great interpersonal skills, 

you can get something done. I have also seen a screwed up type 

of operation where no matter who you have, the team just cannot 

get the job done. 

Based on your experiences, and particularly, Mr. Zients, from 

your outside point of view, does this make sense the way we are 

doing this? Is there a better way that we can manage the procurement process that perhaps may streamline the process and get 

these programs off the high-risk list? Because both DOE and NASA 

have been on the high-risk list since 1990, and that is a long time. 

Mr. ZIENTS. Right. 

Senator VOINOVICH. How much longer will these programs be on 

the high-risk list with this current organization that we have? 

Mr. ZIENTS. From an outside perspective, now 5 weeks into the 

job, I think that OFPP takes a lead role in guidance and direction, 

14 

training and education, and partnership. I believe that to get it off 

the list the way you have described it, agency leadership has to decide this is a high priority. So, starting at the very top of the agency, the contracting matters, that the workforce matters, that performance on contracting and on acquisition at large matters. The 

horizontal perspective that Mr. Drabkin so eloquently described is 

the essential issue here, and to attempt to do it centrally through 

commanding control is not going to work. There is certainly a role 

for all of us to facilitate and help agency leadership, but at the very 

top of an agency, this has to be a priority. 

I think the President has set a stake in the ground that it is a 

priority for this Administration. When you start at the top of the 

organization and make it a priority to drive strategies and implement priorities accordingly, I think we will see real results. Our job 

is to help agency leadership do that. I think ultimate responsibility 

for performance has to be at the agency leadership level. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Well, do you think that the system impedes 

that from happening in terms of the agencies giving improving the 

procurement process the priority that it needs, that too much consultation is required? 

Mr. ZIENTS. Clearly, it is hard to generalize. I am sure there are 

pockets of strong performance here, but I think if you look historically at what is the root cause here, I think that, in part because 

of the doubling that you both talked about upfront, this has 

changed a lot across 8 years. The number has doubled, so this has 

become a much bigger percentage of the average agency’s budget, 

and I am not sure we have doubled down or tripled down on the 

attention we have given it at the agency senior leadership level. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Do you have the people in your shop necessary to do this? I just mentioned that you have 15 people at 

OFPP to handle a bunch of stuff. 

Mr. ZIENTS. Well, I need to fill out the rest of my team. I need 

to find an administrator, which has been a top priority, and I believe I will have an administrator candidate for you to meet in the 

next couple of months. We also need to fill the position that we described upfront, the associate administrator for the workforce planning. 

With that group in place, I believe I have the team. If I do not 

have the team, across time, as priorities evolve and I get a better 

sense of the workload going forward, we will certainly make sure 

we staff adequately. 

Senator VOINOVICH. The goal always is to try and recruit, retain, 

and reward people. Even though the turnover rate has been lower, 

probably because of the economy, in terms of the rest of the categories of procurement personnel, from what I understand, there 

has been a fairly large turnover of people in this area. 

Do we bring them in, train them, and then, because of lack of 

pay-for-performance or other factors, they decide to tip their hat 

and go someplace else? 

Mr. ZIENTS. My sense here is that maybe compensation is in 

play. I do not have data to suggest how much of the root cause is 

compensation. That said, this is a group that I think has been 

underappreciated, under-trained, under-recognized the last 8 or 

more years. I believe that in order to attract and retain for the 

15 

long-term, we are going to have to turn all of that around. This is 

going to have to be a workforce that feels like it is doing something 

very important, is being well-supported in doing it, and is getting 

the attention from the senior leadership at the agency level and 

has a seat at that table that is making the larger decisions and it 

has the horizontal visibility and orientation that was described before. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Mr. Drabkin, you said something at the end 

about the tools that you have. 

What other tools do you need to get the job done? 

Mr. DRABKIN. In my testimony and in my written statement, I 

pointed out that we lacked the electronic system and acquisition 

kind of system that would facilitate the process beginning with the 

requirements development, and ending with contract closeout. A 

number of agencies have pieces of the tool. For example, they have 

contract writing systems, but that is not enough. 

As we meet the transparency challenge that the President has 

given us and that the Congress have given us, we are finding that 

a great deal of manual work has to be done because the information is not digitally available. 

For example, even the contracts that are written through our 

contract writing systems wind up being paper documents, which 

are managed as paper documents, and, so when you want to get 

information out of those files, somebody has to go and pull it. 

What we lack is a government-wide definition, which we have 

committed recently to provide to an acquisition architecture, and 

then we have lacked the investment dollars to make that system 

come to fruition. 

Senator VOINOVICH. I guess my dear friend, Senator Akaka, is 

probably going to hear this from me at a lot of hearings, but I am 

running out of time here, I am leaving here at the end of next year, 

and what bothers me is that we have hearings and hearings, and 

yet this problem has been around for a long period of time. 

And, Mr. Zients, you are from the private sector. It seems to me 

this is a major problem, and that what ought to be done is somebody ought to sit down and really spend the time to say this is a 

problem and here are the things that need to be done. Here is the 

critical path that we need to follow. Then you can have an opportunity to quarterback it and make sure that it happens, and, quite 

frankly, give Senator Akaka, who is going to be here longer than 

I am, an opportunity to have you come in and look at the list of 

the things that you think need to be done. 

And the alternative, perhaps, looking at this thing from a budgetary point of view. Do you have the money for the training or for 

the systems or whatever is needed, for you to tackle this in a systematic way? Honestly, you are the boss. I mean, you are part of 

the organization that helps set spending priorities. 

Mr. DRABKIN. Yes. 

Senator VOINOVICH. It would be wonderful if you could really 

spend the time to come back to us and say, Senator Akaka and 

Senator Voinovich, here is our plan on how we are going to make 

a difference. We cannot do it overnight, but we have a plan. We 

are going to go forward with this plan, and here are some things 

that you can do in appropriations or someplace else to make these 

16 

goals happen. Because I have to tell you, if you look at this area, 

we are losing billions of dollars each year. 

Mr. DRABKIN. Right. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Billions of dollars all the time. Even the Defense Department. You keep reading about it. Billions and billions, 

but it does not seem like anybody is doing anything about this 

problem, right? It has been that way for how long? Probably as 

long as you have been here. 

Senator AKAKA. Right. 

Senator VOINOVICH. So, I would really like to see something like 

that occur so that we have confidence that you have got a plan in 

mind and know what needs to be done. We cannot allow agencies 

to say, ‘‘well, we are going to ignore what he just talked about because we just do not have the money to do it.’’ You cannot get your 

job done over there, the job we have asked you to do, without the 

proper tools. Thank you, Senator Akaka. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you, Senator Voinovich. 

Senator Voinovich has just explained the huge problem that we 

face. We have tried to bring the agencies and departments together 

to work on of these problems because every agency makes acquisitions. We hope that together we can create a successful system. 

Senator Voinovich mentioned the Department of Defense, which 

is also on the high-risk list. Many of these problems exist in many 

places in our government. We are looking for answers. If we can 

come together, maybe we can make better headway. 

Mr. Drabkin, I want to go back to what you mentioned about 

reaching into the colleges. I believe Federal internship programs 

can be an excellent way to develop specialists needing extended 

training, and to provide entry-level opportunities with a career ladder to young workers. 

Please tell us more about the Federal Acquisition Intern Coalition (FAIC) and what role it plays in addressing acquisition workforce issues. 

Mr. DRABKIN. The coalition is a grouping of the various Federal 

agencies that have internship programs, to coordinate those programs in large part to make sure, first, we are not poaching from 

each other. 

Actually, in response, Senator Voinovich, to something you said 

earlier, our problem is not in turnover, people leaving the Federal 

Government, actually, the turnover of our acquisition workforce 

people are not leaving in large numbers. We did not hire any in 

the 1990s as a result of our effort to reduce the size of government, 

and what we have now is this bathtub effect, where we have people 

we have been hiring for the last 8 or so years, nobody we hired 

from 1993, 1994, to about 2000, and then people who were in the 

government before then and who are getting ready to retire, but 

the coalition is looking at coordinating the efforts of all the agencies to make sure that we reach some standards among the agencies on how intern programs should be structured. We do not compete with each other, and, thus, we are competing with each other 

in the marketplace, it does not make sense for interns. 

I would also point out to you that at the end of the Clinton Administration, the Procurement Executive Council had developed a 

government-wide internship program which was led by the Interior 

17 

Department (DOI), and that program actually started under the 

auspices of Ms. Lee, who I believe is on the next panel, who was 

then our OFPP administrator, and as we look at a model for perhaps how we should move from our current coalition into the next 

steps of maturing that internship process, I think that is a model 

we should follow. It was successful to the extent it was participated 

in, and with the leadership that Mr. Zients will provide us from 

OFPP and our new administrator, I am sure that it will take us 

to the next steps we need to go. 

In GSA, we have begun something similar, looking at combining 

all the various internships and we have principally two acquisition 

internship programs in GSA which, in some cases, causes us to 

compete against each other. It does not make any sense, and it 

does not serve the mission of the whole agency. 

And, as you look at acquisition as a horizontal function of government, when you really look at what acquisition people do in the 

main, it is the same whether you are at DHS, DOI, or Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). It is difficult when you work my 

colleagues, because none of us particularly want to be a mandatory 

part of a whole. We all want to kind of control our own destiny, 

and the coalition is the first steps in moving us, I think, evolving 

us to the place we should be, and, as I said to Mr. Zients and our 

new administrator of OFPP, I think what we need to provide the 

leadership that has not been there for 8 years, to move us into the 

next step. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Zients, as you have testified, the range of 

positions that manage Federal acquisitions is much broader than 

traditional, Federal contracting positions. 

A bill that I cosponsored during the last Congress, S. 680, the Accountability in Government Contracting Act, would have expanded 

the definition of the acquisition workforce. 

Outside of new legislation, are steps being taken to ensure that 

the focus of efforts to strengthen the acquisition workforce is broad 

enough? 

Mr. ZIENTS. Yes, I think it is moving in that direction. I think, 

again, you will see variability by agency. 

As an example, this year, the FAI competency study looked at 

the technical representatives for the first time, and actually a lot 

of what came out of the competency study was that we need to help 

better integrate program managers into early stages of contract 

writing and ensure that the Contracting Officer’s Technical Representatives (COTRs) on the backend are deeply involved in evaluating and managing the contracts. 

So, the whole movement right now is to this horizontal, broad 

definition. I do not think we are there across the civilian agencies, 

but I think we are making progress, and I think we need to learn 

from those who have made the most progress and ensure that we 

take those best practices and spread them across the other agencies. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Kichak, OPM reports that it has set targets 

and closed competency gaps for the acquisition workforce at 15 

agencies that participate in the Chief Human Capital Officers 

Council. I understand you plan to do this for all CHCO agencies 

by October 1. 

18 

Please provide more information about these accomplishments 

and how OPM evaluated competency gaps at the CHCO agencies. 

Ms. KICHAK. Those are self reports that the agencies give to us 

on their competency gaps, and they set targets for the gaps that 

need to be closed, and then they report to us a year later on what 

they are. Every agency is required to make that report, and we 

summarize those results. 

I do not have the specific figures you do. What I saw by looking 

at the last report was that gaps were closed for 75 percent of the 

competencies, but that does not tell you what the 25 percent were 

and how important those are, but we do that for every CHCO agency, not just the ones that you cite. So, we do that review and can 

make that available to you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Senator Voinovich. 

Senator VOINOVICH. I have no more questions. 

Senator AKAKA. There are no more questions. 

I want to thank this panel very much. We may have questions 

for the record that we will submit for your responses. I want to 

thank you very much for providing such useful information as we 

try to improve the acquisition system of our Federal Government. 

So, again, thank you very much for being here, and I look forward to seeing you again. 

Mr. DRABKIN. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator AKAKA. Now, I would like to welcome the witnesses on 

our second panel, Elaine Duke, Undersecretary for Management at 

the Department of Homeland Security; Bill McNally, Assistant Administrator for Procurement at the National Aeronautics and Space 

Administration; John Bashista, Deputy Director of the Office of 

Procurement and Assistance Management at the Department of 

Energy; and Deidre Lee, who currently is the Executive Vice President for Federal Affairs and Operations at the Professional Services Council and is a former Administrator of the Office of Federal 

Procurement Policy, as well as a former acquisition leader at several agencies. 

As you know, it is a custom of this Subcommittee to swear in all 

witnesses. I ask all of you to stand and raise your right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 

this Subcommittee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 

the truth, so help you, God? 

Ms. DUKE. I do. 

Mr. MCNALLY. I do. 

Mr. BASHISTA. I do. 

Ms. LEE. I do. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Let it be noted for the record that 

the witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

Before we begin, I wanted to let you know that although your 

oral statement is limited to 5 minutes, your full written statement 

will be included in the record. 

Ms. Duke, before you proceed with your statement, I wanted to 

take this opportunity to thank you for your service, and, in particular, agreeing to continue your work as undersecretary through 

DHS’s first transition. This likely will be your last time appearing 

before us in your current role, and I want to commend you on your 

leadership in this post and on your stewardship. Your assistance 

19 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Duke appears in the Appendix on page 62. 

has been very helpful to this Subcommittee’s oversight role, and we 

appreciate that. With that, I will ask you to please proceed with 

your statement. 

TESTIMONY OF ELAINE C. DUKE,1 UNDERSECRETARY FOR 

MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Ms. DUKE. Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Voinovich, I do 

not think I would have ever thought I would be sorry about this 

being my last hearing, but this Subcommittee’s been wonderful to 

work with, and, so, I do feel a little sad about that. 

I am thrilled that this last hearing is on acquisition workforce 

because that is a passion of mine, and I appreciate you taking the 

time to have a hearing on this very important subject. And, as we 

discuss DHS’s acquisition workforce, I would like to look at three 

timeframes: Where we were, where we are, and where we are 

going. 

Often times, the DHS Inspector General (IG), Government Accountability Office (GAO), and others continue to point out the 

need for improvement in acquisition and acquisition workforce in 

DHS. I appreciate the oversight, and they give us a lot of good 

ideas, and I think it is important to look at what we have done and 

achievements we have made in DHS on our ambitious path towards improving DHS acquisition and its workforce. I am proud of 

the progress we have made so far. 

Some of the initiatives we have put in place is expanding DHS’s 

Chief Procurement Office from strictly a procurement office to an 

acquisition office. This is not just a matter of semantics; it recognizes that the root cause of DHS’s challenges in acquisition is not 

in the contract itself. The root cause is often in the initial requirements process. This initiative adds program managers, test and 

evaluation experts, cost estimators, logisticians, and system engineers to the DHS acquisition workforce. 

We have also developed a certification program for contracting 

officers, program managers, and contracting officers’ technical representatives to ensure they have the experience, training, and education to have the necessary skills. We have designed and implemented an acquisition professional career program, our intern program, to bring entry-level contract personnel into the Department. 

The program began in 2009, and, by the end of this fiscal year, 

we will have 100 contracting professionals, about 10 of which are 

in the audience today, into the Department. 

We established the Office of Procurement Operations to manage 

the contracting span at DHS Headquarters, which grew from a few 

hundred million dollars in the start of the Department to nearly $5 

billion last fiscal year. 

We have designed and implemented a test and evaluation program for the Department’s major acquisition programs. This is key 

for some of the programs like SBInet and others that this Subcommittee has provided oversight for. It provides a formal test and 

evaluation program, and, more importantly, an independent review 

of operational testing and evaluation of our major acquisition programs. 

20 

1The prepared statement of Mr. McNally appears in the Appendix on page 76. 

In our Certification Program for program managers, we have increased the percentage of properly-certified program managers running our 42 largest level-one programs, which are over $1 billion 

each, from about 20 percent to more than 80 percent. 

We are implementing a comprehensive revision of the Acquisition 

Review Program. This is to recognize that, while we initially reformed our review program after the Department of Defense, our 

spending is not like DOD’s. We do not buy a lot of development 

hardware. So, we have modified it to ensure we bring all of acquisition programs to the senior leadership so they can make risk-based 

decisions on moving our acquisition programs forward. 

We have realized a net increase of more than 300 contracting 

personnel over the last 3 years, and more than 500 since the Department’s inception, though intense efforts to recruit and retain 

staff continue. 

We have developed an electronic system to monitor this cost 

schedule and performance of our major acquisition programs, which 

is key to timely and accurate decisionmaking and risk management 

by our leadership. 

It is important to know that even though we have developed and 

implemented these initiatives, we have a long way to go. Some of 

our near-term next steps include adding another 100 interns to our 

intern program, doubling it to 200 by the end of fiscal year 2010. 

We also have a commitment to have a certified program manager 

running each of our level one programs by the end of this calendar 

year. 

We are finalizing our governance management directive, Directive 102.01, which has been in draft for way too long, by the end 

of this year, and we are conducting formal acquisition review 

boards on 100 percent of our Recovery Act money, our stimulus 

spending by the end of this fiscal year. And, also, we are going to 

add certification programs for logisticians, test, and evaluation experts, and cost estimators in fiscal year 2010. 

Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member, thank you for the opportunity to be here before you, and I look forward to your questions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Ms. Duke. Mr. McNally, 

will you please proceed with your statement? 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM P. MCNALLY,1 ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR PROCUREMENT, AND DEPUTY CHIEF 

ACQUISTION OFFICER, NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND 

SPACE ADMINISTRATION 

Mr. MCNALLY. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before 

the Subcommittee regarding NASA’s effort to staff, train, and retain its acquisition workforce. 

NASA is unlike most civilian agencies. Our programs and 

projects involving space exploration systems, science and aeronautics research, and space operations have one thing in common: 

They are high-risk. This is because NASA is pushing new boundaries in technology and science. There are many challenges involved in managing and performing high-risk programs, projects, 

21 

and missions. They are full of uncertainty and challenges, and they 

involved high-risk acquisitions. 

To meet these challenges, NASA needs capable people. Getting 

and keeping high-quality acquisition personnel is also a challenge. 

That is why we are here today. Recruiting, developing, and retaining qualified and capable acquisition personnel is critical for mission success. 

The first step to a strong workforce is bringing the right people 

onboard. NASA has had a focus on recruiting entry and mid-level 

personnel through its cooperative education, and intern programs. 

NASA’s Contracting InterN Program has been very successful in 

bringing entry-level procurement personnel onboard. NASA also 

has numerous program management hiring programs to bring in 

the best and brightest for research, development, engineering, and 

science-related positions. Depending on their jobs, many of these 

personnel may fill acquisition roles at NASA. 

Once people are onboard, the next key step is training. Acquisition personnel at NASA have access to comprehensive training programs. They participate in all of the core acquisition training that 

OMB requires for civilian agency acquisition personnel. 

In 1995, NASA established a mandatory training program for the 

procurement workforce that was modeled on the Department of Defense’s program. NASA had an easy transition when the new, rigorous, government-wide, Federal acquisition and contracting program started several years ago because its training was already 

consistent with the new program. 

For the program and project managers, NASA developed the 

Academy of Program Project and Engineering Leadership that recently implemented the Program Manager Certification Process. 

This process has been endorsed by OMB and has been called a 

model example for Federal agencies. 

NASA also focused on specialized and just-in-time training in 

areas such as earned value management, source selection, and costprice analysis to ensure our workforce has the capability to execute 

and manage our high-risk acquisitions. 

NASA uses programs to develop leaders. These include the Senior Executive Service Candidate Development Program, Midlevel 

Leadership Program, and the NASA Foundations of Influence, Relationships, Success, and Teamwork Program. 

Keeping employees is the most important part of a strong workforce. NASA has retention strategies to maintain its acquisition 

workforce. They include new employee orientation, mentoring programs, awards, working family programs, and education assistance. 

Part of the reason we are here today is to talk about the Federal 

Hiring Process Improvement Act. I am pleased to say that NASA 

not only concurs with the intent of the Act, we are already doing 

some of what the bill requires. 

For example, the proposed legislation requires a strategic workforce plan as part of the agency performance plan. NASA’s Office 

of Human Capital Management has had an entire division focused 

on providing planning support for the agency. 

In closing, NASA will continue to pursue its mission that pushed 

the state-of-the-art of technology, while also maintaining American 

22 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Bashista appears in the Appendix on page 81. 

leadership in space, earth, and aeronautic sciences. We have programs and initiatives in place for our current and future acquisition personnel, so that NASA will have a qualified and capable 

workforce to meet the challenges of NASA’s new missions. 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the Subcommittee today, and I would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. McNally. 

And now, Mr. Bashista, please proceed with your testimony. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN R. BASHISTA,1 DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF PROCUREMENT AND ASSISTANCE MANAGEMENT, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

Mr. BASHISTA. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Voinovich. Thank you for the opportunity to come before you 

today to address the Department of Energy’s (DOE) efforts to build, 

strengthen, and maintain a high-quality acquisition workforce. 

As the largest civilian contracting agency in the Federal Government in terms of annual contract obligations, DOE relies heavily 

on a stable, experienced acquisition workforce to effectively support 

its core missions. To this end, the Department has invested heavily 

in strategies to attract, train, and retain the best and brightest talent into its acquisition workforce. 

The downsizing of the acquisition workforce in the 1990s 

throughout the Federal Government was followed by a dramatic increase in workload. Between 1998 and 2006, DOE’s contract spending increased by 71 percent, while the size of our acquisition workforce remained relatively constant. 

To address this challenge, the Department has undertaken a 

number of initiatives to better leverage existing acquisition resources by creating efficiencies through the use of technology and 

by re-engineering and standardizing internal processes. 

Although these initiatives are important, my comments today 

will focus on our efforts to increase and develop our acquisition 

workforce. These efforts are largely focused on attracting new entrants into the acquisition profession. Fundamental to this approach is aligning our recruiting efforts with the career expectations of the next generation of acquisition professionals. 

Over the past several years, our recruiting efforts have emphasized active participation in broader Federal initiatives, such as 

OPM-sponsored hiring fairs, the Federal Career Intern Program, 

OPM’s Central Register Pilot Program for entry-level contract specialists, and the Department of Veterans’ Affairs Coming Home to 

Work Program. 

The Office of Procurement is also working with the Department’s 

Office of Human Capital to obtain direct hire authority, which will 

enhance our ability to recruit and hire qualified staff more quickly. 

And last year we gained OPM approval to re-employ annuitants in 

acquisition positions. 

For the past 2 years, DOE has conducted an annual, enterprisewide competency assessment of the acquisition workforce to identify gaps and improve both training and human capital planning. 

23 

The assessment involves the active participation of DOE’s acquisition managers in identifying and validating competencies, and its 

results are used for organizational planning. 

Information from the assessments helps us to identify priorities 

for department-wide workforce development efforts and helps 

frame our annual acquisition workforce training priorities, which 

are managed under our Acquisition Career Management Program 

(ACMP). 

The ACMP provides a formal structured approach to career development for DOE’s acquisition workforce. The program is designed to increase the proficiency of the acquisition workforce 

through competency-based training and provides a roadmap to 

guide acquisition employees through the training, education, and 

experience needed to advance in the profession. 

A key feature of the program is the establishment of the Department’s Site Acquisition Career Management Council in 2008. The 

council is chaired by DOE’s acquisition career manager, and its 

membership is comprised of representatives from each DOE field 

office. The council’s responsibilities include maintaining the proficiency and currency of the program’s policies and procedures, education and training sources, and course requirements and curriculum. 

Another recent improvement has been centralizing the management of training resources within DOE’s Office of Procurement to 

ensure complex-wide training needs are addressed. 

As a result, more than 90 percent of DOE’s contracting workforce 

is currently certified under the Federal Acquisition Certification in 

Contracting Program, compared to 60 percent as of October 2007. 

In addition, the Department has made significant progress towards closing its resource and skill gaps. Since 2006, the DOE contracting workforce has increased by 30 percent. In addition, since 

the beginning of fiscal year 2008, more than 500 acquisition and 

program personnel have received training that targets both certification requirements and identified skill gaps across the spectrum 

of acquisition skills. 

We are also leveraging existing authorities to retain critical experience and expertise. These include tuition reimbursement assistance, recruitment and retention incentives, employee reward and 

recognition programs, alternative work schedules and telecommuting, and employee development programs. 

Improving the Federal hiring process is a critical element to 

achieving a strong acquisition workforce, and we appreciate the 

Subcommittee’s leadership in focusing attention on the need to improve the hiring process in the Federal Government. In fact, the 

Department is currently working in cooperation with OPM and 

other agencies to improve the hiring process in all the areas addressed in S. 736. We believe that these changes will significantly 

improve our ability to recruit and hire acquisition employees. 

In closing, I would reiterate and assure this Subcommittee that 

the Department is committed to ensuring taxpayer dollars are wellspent and managed through the Department’s efforts to develop 

and sustain a robust, highly-skilled, and professional acquisition 

workforce. 

24 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Lee with attachments appears in the Appendix on page 87. 

This concludes my formal remarks, and I would be happy to respond to any questions you may have. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Bashista. Now, we 

will hear the testimony of Deidre Lee. 

TESTIMONY OF DEIDRE A. LEE,1 EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT 

OF FEDERAL AFFAIRS AND OPERATIONS, PROFESSIONAL 

SERVICES COUNCIL 

Ms. LEE. Good afternoon. Chairman Akaka and Ranking Member 

Voinovich, thank you for including me in the hearing today to talk 

about the acquisition workforce and the Federal Hiring Process Improvement Act of 2009. 

I appear before you today on behalf of the Professional Services 

Council (PSC), which is a new role for me. The Professional Services Council is the leading national trade association of the government Professional and Technical Services Industry. PSC has more 

than 330 members. Companies represent small, medium, and large 

businesses that provide Federal agencies with services of all kinds. 

Together, the associations’ members employ hundreds of thousands 

of people in all 50 States. 

PSC has been a longtime advocate for a highly-skilled, welltrained, and resourced acquisition workforce; and supports efforts 

to enhance the training and professional development of the Federal workforce, particularly in acquisition. PSC also advocates for 

appropriate and balanced approaches to the workforce challenges, 

including recognition of the contributions made by each segment of 

the multi-sector workforce to accomplish the government’s many 

critical positions. 

Today, I would like to summarize my statement. My written 

statement does include some points about the improvements that 

have been made to date, but although progress has been made, 

much remains to be done; rebuilding an experienced, skilled, Federal acquisition workforce and rebalancing the multi-sector workforce will take years of dedicated effort. 

We do not need more reviews, competency studies, further 

discussion of who should or should not be in the workforce, or arbitrary new hiring goals. We need action now. I follow with eight recommended action points. 

First, plan for and manage a multi-sector workforce. Agencies 

must strengthen performance and demonstrate results. Strategically-established, well-defined approaches for hiring the right people for critical agency functions and awarding and managing the 

right contracts and grants for partner performance are critical to 

mission success. We must demand rigor in planning the multi-sector workforce. 

OFPP should issue clear, executable guidance on the phrase ‘‘inherently governmental,’’ as required by the President’s March 4 

memo. Agencies should then develop strategic plans that reflect a 

balanced workforce, focusing on hiring for ‘‘inherently governmental’’ and critical core positions and addressing full cost comparisons of other positions before making conversions. 

25 

Second, as David Drabkin so aptly discussed, we need to clearly 

define the Federal acquisition workforce; a successful program requires a coordinated effort comprised of many skills. 

OFPP should redefine the Federal acquisition workforce to include the broad range of skills needed for the lifecycle of a successful acquisition. An OFPP letter could be issued immediately with 

appropriate regulatory and/or legislative actions to follow. 

Third, we need to fund the total acquisition workforce. If we 

recognize that full definition, we know that agencies need a comprehensive, cogent, and well-enforced development and training 

regime. Congress and the Administration must provide stable, recurring resources for existing and new workforce development, 

training, and retention, and agencies should work with the Congress to make sure we have the proper funding in 2010 and beyond. 

Fourth, put leadership in place. Critical leadership positions, as 

we have discussed here, remain vacant. We need an OFPP administrator and a GSA administrator now. Quickly hire and fill other 

key positions with experienced, qualified acquisition professionals. 

Further, I think the role of the OFPP administrator should be 

expanded to encompass all acquisition functions, rather than being 

just limited to procurement or contracting, and this change would 

require a change to the OFPP Act. 

Sixth, we need to streamline the hiring process now, almost overnight, and S. 736 does contain some key areas that need to be addressed there. 

As David Drabkin mentioned, we need to provide cutting-edge 

tools. There is an integrated acquisition environment that is well 

on the way, but funding by pass-the-hat makes it very difficult to 

maintain the tools that are needed. 

And, finally, we need to ensure we have an engaged, meaningful 

oversight. Accountability must begin with a system that enables 

performance and rewards excellence. 

Today’s Federal acquisition workforce is overworked, undertrained, under-resourced, and under-supported. The Federal acquisition environment has become extremely risk averse and leaves 

little room for honest mistakes. Performing at the highest levels, 

which is what we ask of the Federal workforce, is impossible without innovation and responsible risk-taking. The understandable 

zeal for accountability has spawned a ‘‘got you’’ environment where 

there has been a palpable effect on Federal employees in general 

and government acquisition professionals in particular. 

A contracting officer who does not uphold every single audit recommendation should not find the remedy for exercising his or her 

best judgment to be a referral to the Inspector General for Personnel Investigation. In the vein of independence, some elements of 

the defense oversight community have largely withdrawn from collaborative problem-solving, early reporting, open discussion, and 

resolution of negotiable items. Independence does not equal isolation. We must reestablish oversight as an integral part of acquisition team and a partner in the government’s continuous improvement, provide acquisition training to the oversight, and particularly the audit community, and emphasize that the community can 

26 

and should be a key partner in the acquisition community, which 

can be done without any compromise of their independence. 

Both the Federal workforce and the contractors should support 

serious innovation in both good times and bad, and sending that 

message could do more to strengthen the Federal acquisition workforce than almost anything else. I look forward to your questions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Ms. Lee. 

I want to start this round with a question for all of our agency 

witnesses. There often appears to be a disconnect between the acquisition and human capital functions within agencies. This results 

in acquisition workforce issues largely falling to acquisition staff, 

without the benefit of human capital expertise. 

As you work to strengthen the acquisition workforce, how is your 

agency promoting communication and collaboration between the acquisition and human capital parts of your agency? Ms. Duke. 

Ms. DUKE. Chairman Akaka, within Department of Homeland 

Security, the main way we are addressing that is through the undersecretary of management position, which, as you know, by statute, functions as a chief management officer. So, each of the business lines, personnel, human capital, procurement, finance and 

budget, security, and administration are managed under. So, the 

undersecretary for management with the career deputy is that 

driving integration function. 

And, initially, in our early stages, we did function much more in 

stovepipes, and now, with our maturity, one of the focuses of management and each of the chief’s performance goals this year is to 

provide integrated management solutions, which drives to the point 

you are talking about there, supporting each other to meet our mission more effectively, using the collaborative business lines together. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. McNally. 

Mr. MCNALLY. At NASA, the Human Capital Officer and my office are assigned within the same organization. So we are aligned 

together organizationally, and we meet on a regular basis to discuss my needs within the acquisition arena in not only procurement, but the project program managers. But, also, we talk about 

leadership development, entry-level personnel, and mid-level, and 

recruiting retention goals. 

Also, when the Office of Human Capital set up a workgroup 

within NASA, we are part of that workgroup. Senior leadership 

within my organization are part of that. So, we are very much in 

line with the Human Resource Office in that arena. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Bashista. 

Mr. BASHISTA. Mr. Chairman, unlike DHS and NASA, we are not 

organizationally aligned with our Human Capital Office, but, particularly in the last year or so, we have seen significant improvements. 

As you are aware, the National Academy of Public Administration (NAPA) has been studying the Department’s financial management function, human capital function, and procurement function, 

and separate, but related, we have been attacking some of the 

issues that have been identified by NAPA in advance of the report 

just recently being issued, and I would have to say that the integration, particularly over the last year, has been exceptional. 

27 

We have on board 83 new 1102s series across the Department 

just this fiscal year alone, the responsiveness in relation to the urgency to bring folks onboard as a result of the Recovery Act. They 

have significantly helped to streamline the recruitment and hiring 

process, particularly through the internship programs. 

So, I would have to say, currently, it is very effective. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. McNally, your testimony indicates that 

NASA is already doing much of what our legislation to streamline 

the Federal hiring process would do. I am pleased to hear this. 

Do you feel these hiring reforms have been successful for NASA 

and should be implemented at other Federal agencies? 

Mr. MCNALLY. Well, we are still starting the process with these 

initiatives, so, we are not totally ready to say that they are fully 

successful. But, initial output looks very promising, particularly in 

the areas of the advertisements to make sure it is understandable 

so that we are recruiting personnel that are not already within the 

government, though, they are welcome, but we are looking for personnel outside the government, recent college graduates or personnel who are just graduating from colleges. 

The other thing that we are looking to do is to have communications with those applicants. The one thing that is very frustrating 

for a person who is applying for a job is never to hear what is the 

status of it, so, that is a key area that we are working on at NASA. 

So we look forward to continual movement to improve the hiring 

process because that is a key part of making sure we have the 

right acquisition workforce. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Lee, the Professional Services Council’s most 

recent procurement policy survey found that human capital was 

the most mentioned problem by acquisition professionals. In particular, respondents highlighted the size and quality of the workforce. 

What do you believe the Federal Government should do in the 

short-term to fix this problem, and who do you think could lead 

that effort? 

Ms. LEE. Sir, as we heard from the first panel, the process right 

now is cumbersome and time-consuming. We heard about a process 

that resulted in 67 offers being made, but I do not know how many 

of those people are actually onboard now. I would recommend that 

we step way outside the box. 

When I was at DOD, one of the things that the people in logistics 

did is went and studied NASCAR to say how do you quickly support logistics at a quick turn? I would recommend in hiring that 

we go study the coaches. If you have ever watched, there are coaches who go and recruit high-quality athletes, young men and women 

at about that age and communicate with them in a regular and 

continuous basis, communicate with their family, show them the 

value of joining the team, and have a full recommendation on how 

to get these people onboard and get them enthused. 

We should go study folks like that, not necessarily the process 

that we have always used. We have to step outside the box. 

Senator AKAKA. At this Subcommittee’s last hearing on the acquisition workforce, we heard testimony about the importance of 

sharing best practices government-wide. 

28 

I would like to hear about how your agency is sharing best practices for the Federal acquisition workforce and what best practices 

your agencies have implemented successfully. Ms. Duke. 

Ms. DUKE. Within DHS, we share best practices a couple of principle ways. One is through membership on the Chief Acquisition 

Officer Council, which is chaired by OFPP and has acquisition 

workforce as one of its priorities. Additionally, we have a member 

on the board, a Federal Acquisition Institute, to help make sure 

that organization develops to meet our training needs. 

I think in terms of the best practices that we have implemented, 

I think that what we have done is, one, our intern program, because I do think in terms of having mid-career recruiting, we have 

to create the workforce. When you look at the retirement numbers, 

it is not going to happen just from hiring from other lateral resources. So, I think the intern program is definitely a best practice. 

The other thing I think that is a best practice is identifying the 

workforce and treating them as professionals. 

The 1102 series is one of the handful of Federal series that has 

a positive education requirement, and that is a good first step, but 

I think treating our acquisition workforce as professionals, not as 

administrative support, is key to making them feel a valuable part 

of the mission. 

And, so, I think our best practice is in terms of identifying them, 

treating them as professionals through the way we recruit, the way 

we train, and continuing education requirements. We have continuing education requirements for all our professionals, just like 

an attorney would have. It really is going to help toward them feeling like they are continued, valued partners, and I think that is a 

key to retention. I do not think pure money is a key to retention. 

I think it is being a valued member of meeting the mission is what 

keeps people at DHS. 

Senator AKAKA. Any other witnesses—Mr. McNally. 

Mr. MCNALLY. I would like to address interagency working 

groups. NASA is a member of one recently started this past year 

on award fee contracts, which I spoke about on Monday to another 

subcommittee where I was testifying, and that is a key area where 

95 percent of award fee contracts are with five agencies. So, it is 

critical that those five agencies get together and share its practices 

on incentivizing contractors. We should not just do it alone. 

The other area I would like to address that deals with acquisition 

personnel is program project managers. 

I was asked and I am now chairing a working group that is sponsored by OMB on program project management, where we share 

best practices on setting up policy on program project management, 

how do you do oversight of your program projects, and training 

issues, like earned value management and certification of earned 

value management systems. 

So I think one of the things we need more of is interagency working groups and sharing of knowledge across the Federal Government. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Bashista. 

Mr. BASHISTA. Mr. Chairman, at the Department, we, too, participate in the various fora, the Chief Acquisition Officer’s Council, 

the Chief Human Capital Officer’s Councils, the Federal AcquisiVerDate Nov 24 2008 14:30 Apr 28, 2010 Jkt 053121 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\53121.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
29 

tion Regulatory, and Defense Regulatory Councils, and there is 

much benchmarking and information sharing that we have established networks to do that on acquisition-related issues, and, as it 

pertains to the acquisition workforce, primarily through our relationship with our Chief Human Capital Officer with the CHCO 

boards. Because of our close alignment in mission as far as risk 

and complexity, we have not been shy about benchmarking extensively agencies such as NASA, and, so, some of our benchmarking 

approaches have been less formal, but, nonetheless, we are engaged 

heavily in doing that. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much. Senator Voinovich. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Ms. Duke, I want to join Senator Akaka in 

thanking you for a great job that you have done in the new undersecretary for management position, and I think that all of us are 

impressed with your testimony today and the progress that has 

been made. 

I just wish that my legislation, S. 872, that would provide the 

person in your position a 5-year term had been in place because I 

really believe that if you had that 5-year term that your work and 

the work of the people that you work with would have taken DHS 

off the high-risk list. 

I get the impression that you have had the resources to do the 

job that you needed to do, in other words, to hire the people. I hope 

that the budget that came out of appropriations continues that 

trend. I am, as you know, ranking member on the Appropriation’s 

Subommittee on Homeland Security, and we tried to the best of our 

ability to provide the money that you need at DHS. 

Can you confirm that fact, or do you feel that there are some 

things that we should have done that we did not do? 

Ms. DUKE. Yes, Senator Voinovich. Our appropriators have been 

very supportive of our request. Our next steps in the coming years 

will be towards rounding out those other acquisition career fields. 

So, we will continue to come in, but we do appreciate the support 

of the Appropriations Committee, and that has helped us a lot in 

what we are doing. 

Senator VOINOVICH. So, the 2010 budget will allow you to continue to do the job that you have undertaken? 

Ms. DUKE. Yes, Senator Voinovich. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Good. 

Mr. McNally, I was very much involved in the effort to improve 

NASA’s ability to recruit and retain a world-class, 21st Century 

workforce, and worked with Sean O’Keefe on this issue. He came 

to me and said, ‘‘we need these extra flexibilities.’’ Senator Akaka 

and I worked together, and we gave NASA those flexibilities. 

In your opening statement, you speak about the value of NASA’s 

contracting intern program. So, I was confused to see that, according to the program’s Web site, NASA is not currently recruiting 

new interns. ‘‘NASA is not currently recruiting new interns. Updates will be posted when available.’’ And then the program Web 

site also indicates that NASA is ‘‘Currently developing plans for 

spring semester 2008 recruitment activities.’’ 

With such confusing and outdated information on your Web site, 

how can you expect to recruit the best and brightest acquisition officers? 

30 

Mr. MCNALLY. Senator, we need to update our Web site, and we 

will do that. Right now, I currently have eight interns within our 

agency, and what we are looking to do is we have to stay within 

the ceiling amount of personnel we have within our budget, but, on 

a regular basis, we are going to be looking at introducing more interns into NASA when we have the ability to put them into the 

workforce along with mid-level and other levels in the acquisition 

workforce. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Well, first of all, I would like you to get this 

corrected. 

Mr. MCNALLY. Yes, Senator. 

Senator VOINOVICH. It does not look very good, does it? 

Mr. MCNALLY. No, it does not. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Is the problem that you do not have the 

budget to hire the people you need to do the acquisition? 

Mr. MCNALLY. No, sir. The challenge that we have is throughout 

the total budget is to look at how many Federal personnel there are 

within NASA among the various centers, and then look at how 

many do we hire and put into the intern program. And, so, what 

we are trying to do is balance how many personnel we can have 

at NASA with how many new persons we bring in and looking at 

the attrition rates and those things. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Well, can you tell me right now what NASA 

needs in terms of acquisition people? 

Mr. MCNALLY. Right now, we have enough acquisition personnel. 

That includes the procurement personnel, contracting officer reps, 

and program project managers to perform the missions that we 

have on our plate. But that does not mean that we do not need to 

look forward in looking at recruiting new personnel because we do 

know that our existing personnel will leave either through retirement or through transfers to other organizations or do other 

things. So currently, we have enough personnel in our acquisition 

workforce to do the mission that we have. 

Senator VOINOVICH. So the fact is that you do not need an intern 

program right now? 

Mr. MCNALLY. No, Senator, we do need an intern program, and 

we do have an intern program. I currently have eight personnel 

who are in that intern program at various centers, and, so, we will 

continue to have an intern program. What we need to do is to decide when do we recruit new personnel to be part of that intern 

program. 

Senator VOINOVICH. And you will do that when? 

Mr. MCNALLY. I will have to take that for the record. I do not 

have a specific date to tell you. 

INFORMATION FOR THE RECORD SUBMITTED BY MR. MCNALLY 

NASA expects to recruit new candidates to the NASA Contracting Intern Program 

(NCIP) in spring 2010. The NCIP typically recruits participants on a biennial basis. 

Senator VOINOVICH. I would like to know how many interns you 

have, and how many it looks like you are going to need during the 

next 2 or 3 years because it seems to me that is part of the necessary planning to get the folks that you need onboard. 

31 

INFORMATION FOR THE RECORD SUBMITTED BY MR. MCNALLY 

There are currently eight interns who began the 30-month NCIP program in 2008. 

NCIP participants currently are funded by the individual NASA centers. The 2010 

recruitment efforts will be contingent upon NASA center funding and full-time 

equivalent (FTE) availability. 

In addition, I talked to Mr. Zients about the unique opportunity 

we have, because of the economic downturn, to be able to pick up 

some absolutely fantastic people to come to work for the Federal 

Government who in the past we might not have been able to get. 

If we do not zero in right now on that group of people, we are making a big mistake, because once they come in and if we do a good 

job of rewarding them and they see that they are moving on, they 

will remain in public service. We have this great opportunity that 

comes along maybe once in a lifetime. We should certainly be taking advantage of this opportunity, and I would like to hear from 

you about what you are going to do about this issue. 

Mr. MCNALLY. Yes, Senator. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Ms. Lee, as you know, I am concerned that 

agencies receiving funding through the Recovery Act may not have 

the infrastructure to obligate such massive infusions of additional 

budgetary authority in an effective and efficient manner. In fact, 

I was going to ask that of Mr. Zients. We had the folks in from 

OMB to talk about how many of them do not have the people that 

they need right now to do the job, and now we are handing them 

more responsibility. The issue was have they looked out at the 

agencies that need the help in order to make sure that this Recovery Act money is not just squandered? 

So, what effect do you think implementing the Recovery Act will 

have on a critical workforce that you characterized in your prepared statement as ‘‘overworked, under-trained, under-resourced, 

and under-supported’’? 

Ms. LEE. Sir, I am very concerned about that workforce. I still 

have a very strong affiliation with the acquisition workforce, and 

they have been asked, once again, to do a whole lot more very 

quickly under a bright, hot spotlight, and I think you are going to 

see some of the wear and tear and the strain on that workforce. 

It is unfortunate that our economy is such that it is—because I am 

hearing anecdotally that some people are staying that might have 

gone, and then some people are saying I am just exhausted. So, I 

think we really have to be sensitive to the workforce and the workload. 

David Drabkin of GSA, the Congress authorized some contingency contracting planning, and they are in the throws of getting 

that done. I think this would have been a great opportunity to have 

that in place and exercise that workforce for this additional workload. So, I hope we will continue along this path for future spikes 

of workload. 

Senator VOINOVICH. I think we gave DHS some extra money in 

the stimulus. Did you not get that? 

Ms. DUKE. Yes, we did. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Ms. Lee, you have been around awhile. You 

have been in public service, and now, you are on the outside looking in. 

32 

Were you here when I asked a question of the other witnesses 

about whether the Federal procurement process is organized properly? 

Ms. LEE. Yes, sir. 

Senator VOINOVICH. I would like to hear your opinion on whether 

or not you think it is organized properly. 

Ms. LEE. I think there are always improvements that can be 

made. Agencies are striving to do their individual piece. I will go 

back to say I think it is absolutely critical that we get an OFPP 

administrator and a GSA administrator pretty quick because they 

are key in driving forward the change and the execution that needs 

to take place. 

The agencies you have seen are more than willing and anxious 

and ready to take those steps forward, but they want to be sure 

they are going in the right direction, that they are following the 

Congress and the Administration’s desires, and I think they need 

the leadership in place to say OK, here we go, and some pretty 

quick action and probably some pretty revolutionary actions need 

to take place, particularly in the flexibility in hiring. 

Senator VOINOVICH. OK, so, in your opinion, it is not that all 

these various agencies have to coordinate with each other that is 

the stumbling block in terms of getting some acquisition programs 

off the high-risk list, but that the problem is having the right people in those agencies? 

Ms. LEE. Yes, sir. 

Senator VOINOVICH. So that is a people problem, a human capital 

problem, not an organizational problem. 

Ms. LEE. Yes, sir, I believe it is, and I also do believe, as the last 

piece of my statement here says, we have to get together on some 

of the oversight. Oversight is absolutely essential, but when it has 

a workforce so paralyzed that they are concerned about taking 

measured, logical risks to get the job done, then we have created 

an environment that is just too hard to operate in, and probably 

will not be successful. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Remember when we passed the Stimulus 

Bill, and I think we required the agencies to report back in 30 days 

with spending plans? 

Ms. LEE. Yes, sir. 

Senator VOINOVICH. And I just thought to myself, give me a 

break. It is probably going to take them 90 days, maybe 6 months, 

before they even get the thing off the road. Now, all of a sudden, 

they are reporting back, and, of course, then we’ve paid for a whole 

bunch more staff at department Inspectors General. 

So, I suspect what you are saying is that these people are right 

now in a position where they are frightened about doing their jobs 

because of the big light being shined on them, and, perhaps, that 

might impede their ability to do the job that we want them to do. 

Ms. LEE. Yes, sir, I believe it does. Ms. Duke and I were in it 

together, and, who can forget the fewer than 40 contracting officers 

during Hurricane Katrina who were subsequently reviewed by our 

400 auditors? They are going to find something, and there is not 

malice or malaise here, it is people doing the best they can under 

very difficult circumstances. 

33 

Senator VOINOVICH. Well, I always felt bad about that. I really 

do. 

Ms. LEE. Yes, sir. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Because we had some extraordinary performance from those people during that period of time. 

Ms. LEE. Yes, sir. 

Senator VOINOVICH. And I think they made great sacrifices, their 

families made great sacrifices, and then they read in the paper that 

they were a bunch of bums. I just really felt bad during that period. And I think Senator Akaka and I tried on occasion to let them 

know how much we appreciate the job that they did. 

Ms. LEE. And we saw that in the hiring impact at the Federal 

Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). When we tried to hire 

people, people were saying I do not want to work there. And part 

of that was I do not want to read in the newspaper that I am bad 

or the organization that I work for is bad. And I am very concerned 

from the outside looking in, and I would be interested in the rest 

of the panel, are we putting our acquisition workforce in that same 

consideration? 

At the Department of Defense, the example that I gave was 

should a contracting officer who uses their best judgment to get an 

action done be referred to the IG? Why are they going to try to get 

something done? I would just say come on in, auditors, and do the 

job for me. And we are putting people in that situation. How are 

we going to recruit, retain, and hire people if that is the environment we are asking them to work in? I think it is a concern. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Senator Voinovich. We 

will do a second round of questions. 

Ms. Duke, DHS is one of the largest procurement spending agencies in the Federal Government, and, as you know, last fall, GAO 

found that the Department still faced significant challenges in 

building and sustaining a capable acquisition workforce. 

What steps has the Department taken to address GAO’s recommendations? 

Ms. DUKE. Well, Senator Akaka, the GAO report said two things. 

One, it said we are taking a lot of steps forward, and then the main 

areas that it said that we needed significant improvement on were 

the strategic planning, and that is something I will admit we did 

not do in the earlier days. It is very hard to be strategically planning when you are dealing with the formation of a new department 

and $15 billion of contracts. 

So the main thing we are doing and the main focus of that GAO 

report was to do better strategic planning. So we are trying to get 

out of the mode of being reactive, filling just the vacancies as we 

have them, and through the Human Capital Office, having a strategic plan that has filling acquisition positions as well as the other 

challenges in DHS, such as intelligence analysts and others. 

So that is the main thing we are doing, is addressing the strategic planning issues, so that we are not in a reactive, tactical level 

in the future, we are more planning forward. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Duke, DHS has faced challenges in collecting comprehensive data on the size and skills of its acquisition 

workforce and in planning strategically for that workforce. 

34 

What specific actions is the Department taking to address these 

data and planning issues? 

Ms. DUKE. The main action we are taking is trying to code the 

acquisition positions, and what I mean by that is we have to have 

a system by which people that are in the acquisition workforce, 

those billets are coded so that we can track them, we can track the 

people that are in them to make sure they have the right certification, the right recurring training, and then, as those people vacate those positions, that we fill them with the appropriately-qualified people. 

If I may add, Mr. Chairman, you asked the previous panel what 

can be done at the Federal level? This is an example of something 

that is intensely overhead, intensely difficult to stand up, and I 

would argue that not only just telling us we should do good and 

hire more people, but that some of these things that are systemic, 

I believe DOD is the only Federal agency that has coded positions 

that we can actually track and give the management attention to 

this. Those are some of the overhead functions that if we address 

them federally, I think it would be that we would get a lot better 

results more quickly, but, right now within DHS, we are doing it 

only for 1102s at this point and plan on doing it for the other career fields. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Bashista, most of DOE’s workforce consists 

of contractors. 

What plans do you have to augment and improve your agency’s 

acquisition workforce in the short-term so that government employees can appropriately oversee the contractor workforce? 

Mr. BASHISTA. Senator, one of the actions that we are taking is 

in response to the GAO’s high-risk report, and one of the things 

that the Department has not done historically well is estimate with 

any type of accuracy the level or skill mix of acquisition and program managers and other support staff that are required to manage our major projects. 

In response to the GAO report, we went out and found a couple 

agencies that do a good job of doing that, the Naval Facilities Command and the Army Corps of Engineers. And, based on the 

benchmarking of those agencies, we have developed a staffing 

model, an algorithm if you will, and we are currently testing that 

model to determine the right size to manage and support our 

projects. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Lee, you have a unique perspective as a 

former Federal acquisition leader who is now involved with the private sector at PSC. In your testimony, you recommend that the role 

of OFPP should be expanded. 

Would you please provide more detail on how OFPP’s role should 

be altered? 

Ms. LEE. Mr. Chairman, as discussed here, DOD generally broadly defines acquisition. They track the systems engineers, the quality people, and the whole acquisition team. 

Generally in the civilian community, when you say ‘‘acquisition,’’ 

people hear contracting and procurement, and they quickly nick it 

down to this small group of the acquisition community, and that 

puts a lot of pressure on that community, and I believe that if you 

look at the Office of Federal Procurement Policy, it reinforces that 

35 

thought that acquisition really means those contracting and procurement people. 

And, so, I believe that role needs to be expanded to recognize 

that acquisition is a total team, that it is a strategic enterprise endeavor, and that if each agency looks at their total budget and the 

amount of their budget that goes out the door in business transactions, which include grants, we would recognize that team is very 

important and it needs the guidance and the structure to make 

sure it works, and I think that a Senate-confirmed political position 

at OFPP is an important lever to help the community achieve those 

goals. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. McNally, as you know, NASA spends the 

vast majority of its budget through contracts, and has been on 

GAO’s High-Risk List for its contract management since 1990. 

While a recent GAO report credits your agency with improvement, 

it also found that NASA needs to pay more attention to effective 

acquisition project management. 

Please discuss what steps NASA is taking to respond to these 

findings. 

Mr. MCNALLY. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

One of the key steps that we have underway is a monthly baseline performance review. We have actually invited OMB, and they 

have sat in through some of those reviews, and at each review, 

which is done by NASA senior leadership, we look at our major 

programs and projects on a monthly basis to look at their cost 

schedule and technical performance, also hear from an independent 

group who also have done an assessment of those programs, to look 

at how well those programs are performing. 

During that meeting, we also hear from four functional areas. 

One of those areas is acquisition. So, I give a briefing on a monthly 

basis on upcoming acquisitions, some of the strategies we have, 

also focus on some mission directorates, which are themed that 

month, but also talk about areas of undefinitized contract changes: 

The numbers, where they are in negotiations, and areas of protest. 

So, all the areas of high-risk in acquisition we talk about on a 

monthly basis. 

And another important area that is talked about is the workforce. So, I give a presentation on acquisition, and then someone 

from the Human Capital Office talks about the workforce in general, but, also, we get into particular functional areas like the acquisition workforce. 

So that is one of the areas that is part of our corrective action 

plan in regards to the acquisition high-risk that NASA is under. 

Senator AKAKA. This question goes to the Federal agencies. As 

you know, last week OMB issued guidance requiring agencies to 

develop insourcing guidelines. 

In the past, certain agencies have been criticized for relying on 

contractors to assist with procurement functions. 

Does your agency have sufficient, internal capacity to conduct the 

assessments necessary to determine which functions should be 

insourced? Ms. Duke. 

Ms. DUKE. Mr. Chairman, yes, in DHS, as you know from previous hearings, we are very close to having that assessment done. 

This has been a priority of Secretary Napolitano. 

36 

We do not have very much contractor support for the procurement workforce. We do have it in our program management program areas. We also are concerned with having enough Federal 

employees to actually manage our contracts, and, so, I have been 

in conversations with your staff, and we will be up this month to 

talk about the results of DHS’s assessment of its workforce and 

contractor balance. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. McNally. 

Mr. MCNALLY. We just recently received that memo, and, so, we 

are still analyzing it, but one of the key things that NASA does on 

its science projects is looking at ‘‘Make-or-Buy’’ decisions, and, actually, we compete our science projects between universities and 

some of our centers. So, we continually look to get the best ideas 

whether or not it is from an internal NASA scientist or from someone from the outside in the university arena. So, we continually 

use ‘‘Make-or-Buy’’ decisions to decide whether or not we should be 

performing the function and how we should be using industry in 

performing functions to meet our mission. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Bashista. 

Mr. BASHISTA. Mr. Chairman, like NASA, we developed a general 

framework based on the Omnibus Act’s requirements pertaining to 

developing departmental guidelines on insourcing. We are reviewing the OFPP guidance and refining our draft implementing guidance, and we are working with our Office of Human Capital. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. McNally, as you know, on complex acquisition projects, contractors referred to as lead systems integrators 

sometimes help manage various other contractors working on the 

project. This may result in contractors defining the requirements 

for government contracts. 

This Subcommittee has seen firsthand problems that can arise 

through Lead System Integrators (LSIs) from problems with the 

Coast Guard’s Deep Water Program. This program subsequently 

abandoned the use of LSIs, returning this function to government 

employees. 

Can you tell us what NASA’s experience has been with the use 

of Lead System Integrators? 

Mr. MCNALLY. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have been at NASA 4 

years, so, I really cannot address what we have done in the past, 

but I would like to address what we are doing in the future, and 

what I would use as an example is our Constellation Program, 

which is putting together the next Human Space Flight Program. 

There, NASA is the lead integrator. We are responsible for the 

total design of the constellation system where we utilize industry 

for various elements of that program, like parts of the launch vehicle and the space vehicle, but we are taking total responsibility for 

the complete system on that program. So, we are the lead integrator on that program. 

So, I can only address what we are currently doing on one of our 

newest major programs. 

Senator AKAKA. I want to ask each of you if you have any final 

thoughts about this hearing and what we are trying to accomplish. 

We have come together seeking to strengthen the Federal acquisition workforce through government-wide leadership and initiatives. 

You have provided answers to our questions, and I want to give 

37 

you a chance to provide any final thoughts you may have on this 

topic. So, let me start with Ms. Duke. 

Ms. DUKE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I just wanted to commend the Subcommittee for having the two 

panels. I think that to make this work, we need not only the individual agencies, but we need the Federal agencies, and I think your 

attempts to have the more systemic OMB and others accountable 

and responsible for working with us as they try to do. 

Echoing Ms. Lee’s comments, I think most of us know the right 

thing to do, and we do not need another layer of overseers telling 

us to, again, hire more people and do this, and, so, I do look forward to both individually with the fellow agencies and then with 

the Federal-wide agencies having the support to pull these forward 

because that will really be helpful to do some of this as a Federal 

Government because it is a big, uplift design, these controls and 

these systems, and I think we need to leverage each other’s work 

and lessen the overhead for each of us. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Mr. McNally. 

Mr. MCNALLY. Mr. Chairman, this forum has been great for me 

and I think the other agencies, and we need more like this, where 

we talk, and not just bring in one agency and talk about an issue, 

but bring in the other agencies plus OMB, plus Office of Personnel 

Management because it is an integrated challenge that we have 

when we talk about a workforce. We need to have the right numbers of personnel, but those personnel need to have the skills to do 

the job that they have to do. 

So, I commend this Subcommittee to bringing this type of forum 

together, and I will look forward to participating in future forums 

like this. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Mr. Bashista. 

Mr. BASHISTA. Mr. Chairman, thank you again for the opportunity to be here today. 

The invitation letter for this hearing solicited additional ideas or 

tools that we may need. One that I would like to offer, it is a little 

bit close to home because I have lost a couple of folks to the disparity and pay systems, I would suggest that the Subcommittee 

look at the potential of greater standardization. Agencies that do 

have pay banding have much greater flexibilities, as I understand 

it, and opportunities to offer higher salaries to folks than we can 

under the GS System, which is very restrictive, and, so, that would 

be one thing I would like to leave with you today. Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Ms. Lee. 

Ms. LEE. Mr. Chairman, thank you for including me. 

I will say that one thing we are seeing from the industry side 

that is very concerning is regarding insourcing, and that is that, 

in the rush to be compliant and to work through those issues, agencies are doing what we call badge-flipping, which is going to contractor employees and saying we want you to convert. 

Now, the Professional Services Council absolutely supports inherently governmental work being done by government employees and 

critical and core mission work should be done by government employees, but we are concerned about this kind of broad stroke conversion, which, as a taxpayer, may not be the right strategy, and 

38 

we could end up with a lot of government workers not doing the 

really strategic work. So, we are very concerned about that. 

We are also concerned, of course, from a taxpayer standpoint, at 

the long-term cost of bringing that work in-house, which may not 

be the most efficient way to accomplish it. 

So, there are some concerns about the execution of insourcing. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you again to this panel. I just received word that Senator Voinovich is returning. I would be happy 

to wait a minute for him. 

In the meantime, I would like to say, as Senator Voinovich said, 

we have been working on this issue over a long period of time. 

With this new Administration and new thoughts on these problems, we are going to make every effort to improve the system. We 

are trying to include everybody in shaping the solutions: The private sector, our agencies, and our government leadership. We know 

that part of the problem is a lack of resources. We need to consider 

all of this as we do our strategic planning. 

We know that waste and abuse has been a huge problem. If reform is done correctly, it will certainly help us to improve rapidly 

in those areas. We are trying to ensure that the most expert people 

are in the proper positions to work in these important areas. 

Senator Voinovich and I have been working closely together on 

this. I also want to return to S. 736 and say that we are going to 

really work hard on improving hiring times and practices. This is 

something that we feel we can certainly streamline. With your 

help, your expertise, and your advice, I think we can succeed. 

And, with that, let me call on Senator Voinovich for his final remarks or any aditional questions that he may have. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Well, I regret that I had to cut out of here 

and not hear your responses to Senator Akaka. 

It was interesting that Mr. Zients was talking about the issue of 

each of the departments needing to make acquisition and procurement a priority. Ms. Lee, do you think the departments have made 

this a priority? 

Ms. LEE. I think they are beginning to. I do think with the new 

Administration—when I was at the Department of Defense, I used 

to keep a pie chart on my desk of the agency’s budget, and when 

you look at that and see the amount of dollars that go out the door 

through business transactions, it is really a sobering thought, and 

I would think that all of the agencies probably want to do that, and 

when their senior leadership looks at their budget in that format, 

acquisition will move to a strategic, enterprise-wide role in almost 

all agencies, and I think that would be a fundamental movement 

when the senior leadership nods their head and says yes, this matters to me how I spend that money. 

I think OMB has demonstrated that through their recent memorandum. And the President’s statement, those of us who have been 

in the acquisition community for years, I think we were probably 

all really quite excited to see the President make a statement 

about this community and its importance. 

So I think we are on the road. I do not think we are there yet. 

Senator VOINOVICH. If you were sitting in my chair and Senator 

Akaka’s chair and you were genuinely concerned about this, this 

problem that has been around since 1990, what is it that you would 

39 

ask the folks here to do in order to make sure that these problems 

are corrected and we get these programs off the high-risk list? 

Ms. LEE. I think the folks here are ready, willing, and able. They 

need the leadership permission, if you will, and support from their 

senior leaders. 

They certainly need the appropriate funding. For years, we have 

had caps on this, specific workforce caps and they could not hire, 

so, they need that authority. I do believe they can be successful 

with the leadership support, and the funding, and it needs to be 

recurring funding. 

We are certainly a huge supporter of Defense Acquisition Workforce Reformat, but if you are going to pay people out of that Act, 

you have to make sure it has recurring funding because, otherwise, 

you have incurred recurring salary money out of a fund that may 

not be recurring fund. So, how are you going to pay those people’s 

salaries? And so, that exacerbates the problem of hiring and retaining and training. 

So, I think leadership, the flexibility to hire, the money, and I 

cannot say it enough, it is we have to figure out a way to streamline the hiring process. 

Sir, when I left the Federal Government, I had a job within 

weeks, and I did not have to fill out a 19-page application. I did 

not have to do knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs). I did not 

have to hire a contractor to help me write an application to get a 

Federal position, which, as we know, people are doing. 

So, something has got to happen, and quick. Our young people 

do not want to fill out—they are so computer literate that why is 

not this available to me? Why can’t I respond online? Why can’t 

you tell me, which is a very positive thing in S. 736—what my status is. 

As a parent, we would like to get them off the personal payroll 

as quickly as possible. Someone please hire them and tell us they 

have a job. Please, let them go. But having them sitting at home 

saying hey, mom, I am waiting. Let us move it along. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Yes. Well, I have heard war story after war 

story from people that really wanted to work for the Federal Government. They did not hear from the agency they applied to. When 

another job came along, they took the other job, and then 3, 4, or 

6 months later, they found out that they could have had the job 

with the Federal Government, but by then they had already made 

a commitment to their new employer. They were people of integrity 

and stuck to what they promised the employer that they would 

stick around. 

The other issue that has been of concern to me is the complaint 

I hear from a lot of folks who have worked in highly technical 

areas, either for the national labs, the Department of Energy, or 

NASA. These skilled individuals just leave because they feel that 

the environment is not conducive to performance. By that I mean, 

they come in, they work hard, and they do not seem to be rewarded 

for their hard work. I have talked to a lot of people, so, it cannot 

be that they think they are better than someone else. They said the 

environment at such agencies is not the kind of environment that 

they had originally anticipated, particularly, for these highly-educated folks that are coming onboard to serve. 

40 

What is your comment about how do we keep those people onboard? 

Do we need more pay-for-performance? I know Senator Akaka 

and I moved some of the technical people into the pay-for-performance category like we do with the senior executive service. Could 

you comment on that? 

Mr. BASHISTA. Senator, I can speak to the acquisition workforce, 

and, again, we have been averaging about 9 percent attrition in the 

acquisition workforce. In the contracting field, I can speak specifically. With respect to laboratory employees and scientists, I am not 

equipped to really address that issue. 

But with respect to retention strategies, we do see a lot of the 

young kids that we bring in through these internship programs, 

grow them, train them, invest a lot of money, put through executive potential programs when they get to that stage, and then other 

agencies pursue them. So, my experience is it is not so much that 

they are dissatisfied with the work environment. I believe that 

most, at least those that I have worked directly with, are satisfied 

and believe that they are getting the training, but there are certain 

perks, if you will, and maybe incentive bonuses that we could not 

offer at one time to do that. 

Now, I will say, and, again, I think this is as a result of the better integration between our office and our Office of Chief Human 

Capital, is we are more aware of the authorities and the flexibilities that we have to offer hiring and retention bonuses, award and 

recognition programs, and the procurement organization ourselves, 

we do have various recognition programs for organizations and individuals. 

We have recently instituted a procurement management review, 

where we have a cross-function of field and headquarters folks who 

go out and review acquisition offices throughout the department, 

and one of the key features of that program, it is not just a got you 

in oversight and slam them over the head system, it is acknowledge management and let us share information. But a key part of 

that is recognizing excellent performers, and at least one individual 

at those sites, and we found that to be a meaningful incentive for 

some of these folks. 

So, I do think that we have problems, I do think the objectives 

of the legislation and the efforts of OMB and the other agencies 

will help us get there. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Great. One last thing. I think you mentioned 

in your testimony about direct hire authority. 

Mr. BASHISTA. Yes, sir. 

Senator VOINOVICH. We made that available, I thought, through 

our legislation to the Office of Personnel Management, and I know 

you have direct authority right now, Mr. McNally, do you not? That 

was, I think, one of the changes that was made. 

Mr. MCNALLY. Yes. 

Senator VOINOVICH. GAO has that, I think. The Nuclear Regulatory Commissions has direct hire. And I am interested, were you 

unaware that it was available? 

Mr. BASHISTA. I think there was a late recognition in procurement of the authority and what was required to obtain it. And, 

again, I think the skill gap analysis requirements helped us to colVerDate Nov 24 2008 14:30 Apr 28, 2010 Jkt 053121 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\53121.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
41 

lect the data and the information to be able to support an objective 

determination by the Secretary to do that. 

I think, again, the import of this has been emphasized based on 

the need for staffing for Recovery Act, and our Chief Human Capital Office is supporting us in doing that, and I am hopeful that we 

have made the proper justification, and that we will secure that 

shortly. 

Senator VOINOVICH. When Mr. Berry was here, Senator Akaka 

and I indicated to him that one of our concerns was that a lot of 

the agencies were not using the flexibilities that were available to 

them and that he ought to try to go out and get his team to market 

these flexibilities so folks were definitely aware of what was available to them. 

Senator AKAKA. Right. 

Senator VOINOVICH. Well, thank you very much for your testimony today. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you, Senator Voinovich. 

I am hopeful that we will remove the remaining roadblocks to effective recruitment, training, and retention of the best and brightest acquisition professionals. I appreciate all your thoughts on our 

Hiring Reform Bill because I think this is part of the solution. 

I want to thank Elaine Duke for her service with DHS. I know 

that you will make great contributions however you choose to serve 

the country in the future. Your work has been helpful not only to 

DHS, but also to this Subcommittee in its oversight role. I wish you 

and your family well in your future endeavors and thank you for 

bringing the 10 young people to this hearing. We appreciate their 

presence here. 

Again, thank you to our witnesses. 

The hearing record will be open for one week for additional statements or questions from other Members. 

This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:55 P.M., the hearing was adjourned.] 

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