Negotiated Rulemaking – 2/23/24

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 DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

OFFICE OF POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION

NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING 

STUDENT DEBT RELIEF COMMITTEE

SESSION 4, DAY 2, AFTERNOON

FEBRUARY 23, 2024

On the 23rd day of February, 2024, the

following meeting was held virtually, from 1:00 p.m.

to 2:00 p.m.
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Negotiated Rulemaking – 2/23/24

P R O C E E D I N G S

MR. WEATHERS: Good afternoon 

everyone. Welcome back. I hope you had a good lunchtime. 

My name is John Weathers. I'll be your FMCS facilitator 

for this afternoon. We're here on session four of school 

loan forgiveness and day two. So I'm going to hand it off 

to Tamy if you have anything from your break. I know you 

were considering some things.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you, John. If at 

this time the screen sharers could share, excuse me, 

could share paragraph (d). Just a second to get my screen 

where it needs to be. Okay. Over the break, we looked at 

the recommendations that you guys had for paragraph (d)

for the process for additional relief. We have decided to 

add the words after acquired through an application or 

any other means to provide relief, including automated 

relief. So that's the only change that we have from the 

reg text that we provided to you this morning. We have 

added the words or, excuse me, any other means. So 

hopefully that will solve the concern that was presented 

by you guys and we appreciate your help with that.

MR. WEATHERS: Great. Thank you, Tamy. 

I see that Jessica has put her hand up. Go ahead, 

Jessica.

MS. RANUCCI: Thanks. Sorry, I was 
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trying to catch you before we stopped the screen share. 

Could you just be really careful, Tamy, could you just go 

through one more time that end of (c)? That was not the 

same on the PDF. I know you talked about it this morning, 

but I think since it's not what was sent to us, could you 

just if you have it?

MS. ABERNATHY: Give me just a second. 

So this is where we excluded the final clause of 

paragraph (c). And so we are proposing to change the 

words effective date to publication date. So the only 

change that you're looking at is the word effective to 

publication date.

MR. WEATHERS: Thank you, Tamy. Any 

questions or comments about the change to (d)? Jessica, 

go ahead.

MS. RANUCCI: Thanks. I just want to 

thank you for taking that into consideration. I think 

that's not exactly how I would have done it, but I think 

that it does make it clear what the Department's 

intention is here. And I understand you have a lot of 

layers of approval, and I appreciate that you've tried to 

do it so quickly. So thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you.

MR. WEATHERS: Alright. Any other 

questions about the proposed change to (d)? Alright. 
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Tamy, I would ask you what we're going to do next, then?

MS. ABERNATHY: We also had a 

clarifying comment that we wanted our Office of General 

Counsel to make so I asked Soren to come on screen and 

provide a clarifying statement. And then after that, if 

there is no additional discussion, we can proceed through 

the next steps of final consensus.

MR. WEATHERS: Okay. Thank you. Soren?

MR. LEGAARD: Great. Thank you, Tamy. 

We just wanted to clarify one quick thing. Picking up on 

what Jalil was saying before the lunch break. The 

Department welcomes feedback as we continue to 

development of the model. However, any feedback needs to 

be submitted through our public processes. I just wanted 

to make that clarification.

MR. WEATHERS: Alright. Thank you, 

Soren. And if there's nothing else, I believe that we're 

going to move to consensus now. Just a reminder that 

we're going to take the consensus on the regulatory text 

as a whole. And that consensus of the committee is in 

agreement, or at least it's not a dissent of the proposed 

regulatory text. Remember how we do this, thumbs up for 

an agreement, sideways if you can live with it, thumbs 

down would be a dissent. And we're going to be taking 

consensus. I'll be taking it based on my screen. So I'll 
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go basically in a roll call fashion, one by one. Jalil, 

you had a question.

DR. BISHOP: Just wanted to make a 

note before we go to consensus. I think, you know, we're 

in the fourth session that the Department has brought 

regulatory text that allow the negotiators to feel 

positive around, and we understand that details and 

criteria and that parameters still have to be worked out. 

And I appreciate the point that we can still send in 

proposals to the public process. But I just want to 

underscore one more time, as we get close to ending our 

day, that for these regulations to actually work for 

borrowers, we really have to make sure that we are 

thinking about the technicalities of these policies and 

really emphasizing that borrowers who have really tried 

to follow the ever-changing proposals coming from the 

Department, that they're not penalized for any of the 

programs or consolidations or any of the choices that 

they made following the previous direction of the 

Department. And from my understanding, from both the 

caucus and conversations that we have had throughout the 

session, is that the Department is going to do everything 

it can to make sure that borrowers understand that 

they're included in the preamble. It's going to do 

everything it can to make sure that borrowers are not 
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penalized for using prior relief programs. If that's 

Fresh Start, if that's SAVE and that is going to really 

use the factors here in combination to really get a 

holistic picture of what hardship means, what distress 

means, and then provide that relief accordingly. So I 

just want to put that on the record and underscore again 

for the Department that for this to work, for borrowers 

to really receive and understand that they're included in 

this relief, it needs to be explicit, and it needs to be 

something that really has an intersectional analysis and 

understanding how hardship comes together across these 

factors. And I appreciate some of the conversation we've 

had around that so far, but just want to underscore it 

again because it's a possibility, an opportunity here to 

deliver relief to borrowers who need it the most. And I 

would hate for it to play out like things we have seen in 

the past, where miscommunication or not getting into the 

technicalities excludes borrowers who need the relief the 

most. Thank you.

MR. WEATHERS: Thank you, Jalil. And 

if there's nothing else, I think we're going to move to 

consensus. Recall. I'm going to do a roll call through -

so it's going to be based on my screen, what I'm seeing. 

Thumbs up for agree. Side for you can live with it. 

Thumbs down to be a dissent. So with no further delay, 
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I'm going to start with Kathleen Dwyer of proprietary 

institutions. Note that Kathleen has gone thumbs 

sideways. Thank you, Kathleen. Vincent Andrews 

representing veterans and veterans organizations. Thank 

you. That's a thumbs up from Vincent. Next I have 

Angelika Williams. She's representing private nonprofit 

institutions. Angelika?

MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I'm here.

MR. WEATHERS: Thumbs. How do you.

MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. I'm sorry.

MR. WEATHERS: Consensus. Yeah. No 

worries. Alright. Great. So thumbs up. Excellent. Thank 

you. Sarah Butts for four-year borrowers.

MS. BUTTS: Thumbs up.

MR. WEATHERS: So thumbs up. Thank you 

very much. Melissa Kunes, public institutions two-year 

and four-year. Okay, that's a thumbs up. Let's see. 

Ashley Pizzuti two-year borrowers. Thumbs up. Thank you 

very much. Next, I have Jessica Ranucci consumer 

advocates organization. Thumbs up. Thank you. Next, I 

have Jordan Nellums. Jordan? Current students. Thank you. 

Thumbs up. Next, I have John Whitelaw, civil rights. 

Thumbs up. Thank you.

MR. WHITELAW: [Inaudible] not civil 

rights. Students with disabilities.
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MR. WEATHERS: Oh, my apologies, my 

apologies.

MR. WHITELAW: No worries. I just 

didn't want the civil rights folks to be left out.

MR. WEATHERS: No, no, I know they 

won't be. My apologies for my old eyes.

MR. WHITELAW: It's all good. All 

good.

MR. WEATHERS: Alright. Next, we have 

Lane Thompson. Lane? It looks like a thumbs up. Alright. 

Thank you. Next, I have Scott Waterman, legal assistants. 

Thank you. Thumbs up. Next, I have the Yael Shavit, state 

AGs. Thumbs up. Thank you very much. And next, I have 

civil rights. Sorry, Wisdom. Wisdom Cole. Thank you very 

much. Thumbs up. Next, I have Carol Peterson representing 

historically Black colleges and universities. I see 

thumbs up. And next, I have Richard Haase, graduate 

borrowers. Okay, thank you. Thumbs up. Next, I have Scott 

Buchanan, FFEL.

MR. BUCHANAN: I abstain.

MR. WEATHERS: You abstain. Okay. 

Alright. And lastly, I have Tamy Abernathy from the 

Department. Another thumbs up. Make a note that we do 

have an abstention from Mr. Buchanan. And looks like we 

have this passed as there was no dissent. Thank you very 
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much. And congratulations, folks. Good work. Two thumbs 

up from Scott Waterman and some clapping from Cindy. I 

don't know if we want to hand this off to you, Tamy, for 

any concluding remarks.

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes. Thank you so 

much.

MS. SHAVIT: Tamy, you are muted.

MS. ABERNATHY: I hit the button. What 

an accomplishment that we have attained in reaching 

consensus on the proposed regulations on hardship. We 

appreciate all the hard work of the committee and thank 

you for your commitment and dedication to serving the 

public in this very important issue. On behalf- I'm going 

to give my closing remarks unless anyone else has any, on 

behalf of Secretary Cardona, Undersecretary Kvaal, and 

the many Department team members whose work made these 

last two days possible, thank you. Additionally, we 

appreciate our facilitators, FMCS, who have done a 

wonderful job keeping all of us straight. Most 

importantly, we want to thank you for serving as nonFederal negotiators during this fourth session. This 

concludes the negotiations on student debt relief.

MR. WEATHERS: Thank you, Tamy, and 

thank you everyone for your service on this committee. 

And with that, I think we're done for the day. 
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Congratulations.

MR. HAASE: Thank you.

MS. SHAVIT: Thank you.

MS. BUTTS: Thank you.

MR. NELLUMS: Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Bye, everyone. 

MR. NELLUMS: Thank you.

MR. WEATHERS: Goodbye.
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Zoom Chat Transcript 

Student Loan Debt Relief Committee - Session 4, Day 2, Afternoon, February 23, 2024

*Chat was copied as presented, as a result minor typos or grammatical errors may be present.

From A-Jalil Mustaffa Bishop-Graduate Student Borrower to Everyone:

Coming in

From P-Yael Shavit-State AGs to Everyone:

Please note that Jalil has his hand raised

From P-Richard Haase (Graduate Borrowers) to Everyone:

+1 - Need to be careful that people who have done what they were steered to do in the 

past don’t get penalized or precluded from new forgiveness opportunities

From P- Jessica Ranucci (Consumer Advocates) to Everyone:

+1 to Jalil and Richard

From P-Richard Haase (Graduate Borrowers) to Everyone:

Stepping back in for grad borrowers

From P - Wisdom Cole, Civil Rights to Everyone:

+1

From A-Jalil Mustaffa Bishop-Graduate Student Borrower to Everyone:

Thank you all

From Ashley Pizzuti - P - 2y Borrowers to Everyone:

Thank you!

From Ashley Pizzuti - P - 2y Borrowers to Everyone:

Hope you feel better Tammy