Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee – 1/12/24

1

 

 

 

 

 DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

 OFFICE OF POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION

 NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING TRIO SUBCOMMITTEE 

 SESSION 1, DAY 1, MORNING

JANUARY 12, 2024

On the 12th day of January 2024, the

following meeting was held virtually, from 10:00 a.m.

to 12:00 p.m.
2 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

P R O C E E D I N G S

MS. K. SMITH: Good morning, everyone, 

and welcome to session one of the Federal TRIO Program 

Subcommittee Meeting. My name is Krystil Smith, and along 

with my colleague Cindy Jeffries, I will be facilitating 

this session and the February session for the 

subcommittee. At this time, though, I would like to turn 

it over to our lead subcommittee member, who is Aaron 

Washington with the Department.

MR. WASHINGTON: Hello, everybody. My 

name is Aaron Washington and I will be the subcommittee 

team lead. And welcome to day one of the TRIO 

Subcommittee. Before we get started, we have a brief word 

from the Assistant Secretary of the Office of 

postsecondary education, Dr. Nasser Paydar.

DR. PAYDAR: Good morning. And on 

behalf of Secretary Cardona, Undersecretary Kvaal and the 

staff at the Department, welcome to the first session of 

the subcommittee on TRIO. I'd like to thank those of you 

at the table and the individuals who are observing online 

who have supported TRIO Programs, which are really 

essential for providing opportunities for our most 

vulnerable students for to find pathways from middle 

school through post baccalaureate programs. The Federal 

TRIO Program supports over 800,000 students from sixth 
3 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

grade through adult education to overcome academic, 

financial, and social barriers in order to successfully 

transition from secondary and postsecondary education. We 

know that socioeconomic status and social capital can 

determine the types of opportunities a student has for 

social and economic mobility. Students who are the first 

in their family to attend college, or who come from lowincome backgrounds, face barriers in navigating the 

complex financial aid and college admissions processes. 

Approximately 70% of student adults with at least one 

parent who has a bachelor's degree or higher have 

completed a bachelor's degree, compared to only 26% of 

adults who don't have a college educated parent. And 

among first-time full-time students in 2012 cohorts, only 

22% of Pell Grant recipients have earned bachelor's 

degree after eight years, compared to 47% of non-Pell 

Grant recipients. Through TRIO, the Department funds over 

3,000 grantees to provide services to thousands of 

students who are first in their family to go to college, 

who come from low-income backgrounds, who have a 

disability, or who are learning English. Programs like 

Talent Search provide students in the middle school and 

high school with information about college admissions 

requirements and financial aid options. Upward Bound, 

provides academic instruction to prepare students for 
4 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

higher education, in addition to mentoring and guidance 

as they prepare for the admissions and financial aid 

process. As a result, 84% of Upward Bound participants 

enroll in postsecondary education soon after high school 

graduations. These programs were created with the 

intention of serving students from disadvantaged 

backgrounds who are underrepresented in higher education, 

and our intention is to expand participation in the 

middle school and high school to reach even more students 

to align with the goals of the Higher Education Act. The 

proposal that the Department has put forward would expand 

TRIO services to the most underserved students in K-12 to 

achieve the basic level of education guaranteed to be 

equally available to all students and open the 

opportunity to a higher education. We look forward to 

hearing from you on this proposal. Before I wrap up, I 

want to thank the Department staff who have worked hard 

to make these sessions possible and will continue to work 

on these issues over the next several months. Thank you 

again to the members of the subcommittee who have 

volunteered their time to help us craft an eligibility 

proposal for TRIO Programs that will only help to expand 

opportunities for more disadvantaged middle school and 

high school students in this country. We deeply 

appreciate the work that will happen over the next couple 
5 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

of months. Thank you very much.

MS. K. SMITH: Thank you very much, 

Dr. Paydar, for taking the time out of your schedule to 

be here today and for giving us some more information on 

the very important TRIO Programs. Thank you very much. At 

this time, I would like to introduce the subcommittee 

members. We have six members of the subcommittee, and 

we'll begin with representing the current or former 

participants in the Federal TRIO program, we have Wade 

Williams. Wade and Wade is here. If you can just state 

your name or just say that you're here as a roll call.

MR. WILLIAMS: Here.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Thank you, 

Wade. Good morning. Representing institutions of higher 

education, we have D'Angelo Sands.

MR. SANDS: Good morning.

MS. K. SMITH: Good morning, D'Angelo. 

For the public or private agencies or organizations, 

including community-based organizations with experience 

in serving disadvantaged youth, we have Emalyn Lapus.

MS. LAPUS: Hi. Good morning.

MS. K. SMITH: Good morning. 

Representing secondary schools, including local 

educational agencies with secondary schools, we have Geof 

Garner.
6 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

MR. GARNER: Good morning. Glad to be 

here.

MS. K. SMITH: Good morning, Geof. We 

do have a recent addition to the committee, representing 

state officials, including state higher education, 

executive officers, state authorizing agencies and state 

regulators of institutions of higher education. Michael 

Meotti has been appointed. Michael will not be able to 

join us for the 10 to 12 session. He will be able to join 

us at, beginning 1:00 pm eastern today. And to round us 

out, we do have the lead of our subcommittee, who 

represents the Department, and that is Aaron Washington. 

At this time, I will turn it back over to Aaron. Aaron 

will introduce himself and others along with him 

representing the Department. Aaron?

MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you, Krystil. 

So, you've already met me, but my name is Aaron 

Washington again for, like, I think, like the fourth 

time. I've been at the Department for about 11 years now 

in the same office, office of postsecondary education 

Policy, Planning, and Innovation. We call it PPI. I know 

everybody has acronyms at their job. So, if I say PPI 

Policy, Planning, and Innovation. I wanted, you know, I 

wanted to try and provide like a fun fact. I know this is 

a very small subcommittee, so I thought that'd be kind 
7 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

of, I don't know, just to get to know each other a little 

better so the public viewing can know us a little better. 

We can just say something about ourselves that may not be 

totally apparent just based on the conversations we'll 

have, but I actually had the honor of participating in 

the McNair Scholars Program when I was an undergraduate 

in college. So, I do have a unique familiarity with the 

TRIO Programs, and they really help me out a lot in my 

journey through postsecondary education. So again, I'm 

really excited to be here with you all. I'm really 

looking forward to robust conversation about the 

Department's proposal, and I will turn it over to Gaby.

MS. WATTS: Good morning, everyone. I 

am so excited. Hi everyone. Hi, Emalyn, hi D'Angelo, hi 

Wade. I am so excited to be here this morning. You know I 

love my TRIO community and I love whatever's going to 

help us to move forward. And I thank you all for 

participating today. One fun fact about me. Well, one 

thing is that I am TRIO eligible, we were back in the 

day. I would be TRIO eligible. But another thing is, one 

of my favorite foods. Well, my favorite food is a french 

fry. I love a french fry. And I hope if you can see my 

cup, it says, exercise? I thought you said extra fries 

because I love a french fry. So thank you all for being 

with us today.
8 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

MR. WASHINGTON: Go to Hannah.

MS. HODEL: Hi, my name is Hannah 

Hodel. I am the attorney representative for the TRIO 

Programs. I've been with the Department since 2012, and 

with the Division of postsecondary education since about 

2019. And a fun fact about me is that, I track how many 

books I read and I read, I realized about 50 books a 

year. So if you ever need a book club recommendation, I'm 

always happy to provide one.

MR. WASHINGTON: I'm trying to get to 

like one a year, so I need to like, step my game up. 

Maybe I might need some recommendations. And last but 

certainly not least, Vanessa Gomez.

MS. GOMEZ: Good morning, everyone. 

I'm Vanessa Gomez. I've worked with the Department for 

just under four years. I work under, well, in the same 

team as Aaron. So you guys have a great lead with you. My 

fun fact is, prior to joining the Department in 2020, I 

was in China. So I was a Peace Corps volunteer in China. 

Happy to meet you all and I will be screen sharing. So 

that is my duty for today. Thank you.

MR. WASHINGTON: Vanessa will be doing 

so much more, I think, once we get into it. She was 

actually really integral in developing of the issue paper 

that you all are- that you all see that we all will go 
9 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

through. And she'll be taking notes throughout, like 

throughout trying to keep up with all of the 

conversations. So thank you very much, Vanessa. Krystil, 

did you want to, I mean, the whole subcommittee can do a 

fun fact. I mean, that's.

MS. K. SMITH: I think so, and I think 

it's appropriate. I will start off and then I'll go 

through the rest of the committee, and I'll turn it back 

over to you. But I guess to keep it related to the 

Department, I think reading, just did a lot for me in 

education. So I'll follow Hannah's lead. I am an avid 

reader, and I probably read about 50 books also a year, 

but this is the first year that I, and I'm sorry you all, 

I love an e-book. I used to love a good physical book, 

but I like ebooks. But this is the first time I've just 

recently read the book, the physical book, the e-book, as 

well as the audiobook and the graphic audiobook, where 

they kind of act it out. And so I'm looking forward to 

doing that more this year. Alright. So I'll go in order 

that we originally. Well, no, I'm going to turn it over 

to my co-facilitator and then we'll go to Wade. Cindy?

MS. JEFFRIES: Okay, thanks. Welcome 

everyone. I'm Cindy Jeffries, and like Krystil said, we 

both work for FMCS, and Krystil is going to be your lead. 

And I am here as, backup, follow up support, and assist 
10 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

where needed. A fun fact, and Gaby, you stole my thunder. 

But, this is the link that we have. I sit out on my lanai 

every morning because I'm in Florida and have that luxury 

too. But I have a sign out there that is a motivational 

sign to get me going for the day that says, today I will 

be as happy as a seagull with a french fry.

MS. K. SMITH: I like it. Thank you, 

Cindy. Wade, a little about yourself and your fun fact.

MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So, I am here as 

a representative of TRIO alum. I'm a proud student 

support services alumni. I also served 15 years as a- I 

had three Upward Bound math science and three regular 

Upward Bound programs as a director, as well as then 

three years as an EOC director after that. So, my fun 

fact is, I suffer from an unofficial, undiagnosed, 

condition called musical Tourette's. So anything that I 

hear that is a song lyric it is out and about and you 

better believe I'm singing it. So.

MS. K. SMITH: I like it. Thank you, 

Wade. We'll go next to, I believe it's, What order did I 

call? I think we'll go with Emalyn.

MS. LAPUS: Hi, everyone. Good 

morning, again. My name is Emalyn Lapus. I'm here in San 

Francisco, so yeah, it was quite a bit early morning. I'm 

a Filipino immigrant. I was born in the Philippines, and 
11 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

then I came here when I was seven. So I'm first 

generation. Fun fact actually, so to popcorn off what 

Gaby said, so I was like, I have to find something to eat 

this morning because I'm going to be here at my office 

for a while. So once a month I try to treat myself to 

McDonald's. So I got a McDonald's sausage McMuffin, 

sandwich this morning. So yeah, thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Nice. Thank you, 

Emalyn. D'Angelo?

MR. SANDS: Good morning again, 

everybody. D'Angelo Sands. And I am here in Corpus 

Christi, Texas. I work with Federal TRIO Programs being a 

part of TRIO for in the working capacity for about a 

decade. Wasn't eligible, because I was born and raised in 

the Bahamas. Nassau, Bahamas, to be specific. Fun fact. 

Don't hold it against me. I am a Dallas Cowboys fan. 

America's best team. For the record. Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Thank you, 

D'Angelo. And finally, Geof on the committee.

MR. GARNER: Good morning. Geof Garner 

from icy cold Portland, Oregon. I've been a TRIO director 

almost 20 years. My program's fortunate to serve all 

alternative high schools in the Portland metro area. And 

over the last ten years, we've been able to send over 150 

students overseas to study abroad, low income, first gen 
12 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

alternative high school students earning up to 24 credits 

through Portland State University. Sampling french fries 

all over the world is what we're going to be known for. 

Gaby, I love fries and I love musical Tourette's, Wade. 

Great to meet you all and hear your fun facts.

MS. K. SMITH: Well this is great. 

Thank you. Great suggestion, Aaron. It's, I think, a 

wonderful way to get this very small, but highly, you 

know, knowledgeable of the TRIO Programs subcommittee 

off. I'll turn it back over to you, Aaron.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright. So I wanted 

to just give you all, like kind of start with some, like, 

logistics and an overview of the TRIO- well of the 

subcommittee and negotiated rulemaking in general. This 

is going to be a bit of a speech. So buckle in. If your 

eyes start glazing over, you can just say, Aaron, we've 

had enough, you know, but, I'll just give you like a very 

high level, very high-level overview of what we're here 

to do today. Like I said, I started at Department 11 

years ago. So I've been in every capacity of rulemaking 

you could possibly think of. At one point, I was making 

copies when we were in person, you know, all the way up 

to being here with you today, writing regulatory 

language. So, really excited to get started. But, so 

negotiated rulemaking. And if you're already all familiar 
13 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

with this, I apologize. This is also for the folks that 

are like that might be watching, that just don't really 

have an idea of what negotiated rulemaking is. It's the 

process by which the administration, the Biden 

administration, currently adds, changes, or mends 

regulations. It's required by the Higher Education Act. 

And that is the law that authorizes the TRIO Programs. 

Historically, the Department has brought together experts 

that represent constituencies. So if you had a chance to 

watch the first four days of the rulemaking of the main 

rulemaking committee, you'll see that there is financial 

aid administrators represented, students represented, 

different sectors of colleges represented, like four-year 

publics, four-year nonprofits. So there's like a wide 

range of experts on the main committee. They represent 

their constituency by providing feedback, actual 

regulatory text suggestions. So sometimes they'll just 

say like, well, I think the Department should do this, or 

sometimes they'll actually say, hey, move that, change 

that sentence, move that comma, move that semicolon, make 

the and or make the or an and. There are two people on 

the main committee that represent a constituency, a 

primary and an alternate. The primary supports or opposes 

consensus. And I'll talk about consensus in a moment. And 

the alternate does not unless the primary is not in 
14 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

attendance. Everyone on the main committee must say yes 

to a proposal in order for the Department to publish what 

we call a notice of proposed rulemaking with the exact 

text. So if everybody says yes, if everybody says yes, we 

want to say consensus for whatever language is proposed, 

then we'll publish that as a note of proposed rulemaking. 

I also want to apologize. I think there may be some 

construction going on in the building, and I'm hearing 

some, like, drilling behind me. If it gets to.

MS. K. SMITH: We can't hear it.

MR. WASHINGTON: You can't hear it? 

Great. Alright. If it gets bad, I can just find another 

room. So we'll publish a notice of proposed rulemaking 

with the exact text. Thank you, Krystil, for that. If 

consensus is not reached. So if everybody on the main 

committee, I think there's about 15 members of the main 

committee. Well, 16, including the Federal negotiator 

with Gregory Martin. If everybody doesn't say yes, then 

Department is not bound to publish notice of proposed 

rulemaking that follows the subcommittee's recommendation 

or any recommendation from the committee. The NPRM is 

just that. It's a proposed rule. Once the NPRM is 

published, the public will also have additional time to 

comments on it. So our regulations are published to this 

site called the Federal Register and through the Federal 
15 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

Register. Folks, can, folks from- anybody from the public 

can comment. Those comments are published to a website 

called Regulations.gov. And so that's even more feedback. 

So the negotiated rulemaking process is really a process 

of getting as much feedback from the public as we 

possibly can in order to, you know, make decisions going 

forward about whatever the final rule would be. So if wethe Department could potentially depart from language and 

the proposed rule, the notice of proposed rulemaking due 

to compelling public comment. And usually you'll see that 

if we do depart, especially if we get consensus, if we do 

depart from something in the final rule, we always 

explain it in great detail why we decided to make that 

change based on some compelling public comment. So the 

subcommittee has gathered here today to make a 

recommendation on regulatory language for the main 

program, Integrity and Institutional Quality Committee. 

That's the name of the main committee, and we hope to 

achieve consensus on the subcommittee's recommendation. I 

mean, that's always the goal in negotiated rulemaking is 

to obtain consensus. We want the folks in the public that 

are, you know, providing us feedback, our experts to all 

agree on the path forward. And, you know, sometimes we 

always say, like the Federal negotiator will always say, 

you know, everybody has a different perspective. You 
16 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

know, everybody represents a different constituency. And, 

you know, you might not get exactly what you want out of 

a proposal, but if you can live with it, you know, that 

could also be a reason to vote, not to vote, but to 

approve consensus on the main committee. So while the 

primary negotiator for the main committee supports or 

opposed the consensus, the subcommittee does not have a 

say in consensus. So we just make the recommendation to 

the main committee, it only advises. D'Angelo is on- and 

I also wanted to say too, if anybody doesn't, if anybody 

wants to be called something different, if there's like a 

prefix like Dr. or, just let me know. So D'Angelo's on 

the main committee as an alternate. So consequently, 

D'Angelo is not charged with supporting or opposing 

consensus unless the primary negotiator for his 

constituency was not in attendance on that day. So during 

the second and third sessions of rulemaking, a member of 

the subcommittee who is to be determined unless somebody 

wants to just go ahead and volunteer now, will present 

the progress of the subcommittee and ultimately the final 

recommendation of the subcommittee. And so generally in 

the past, we've had 1 or 2 members of the subcommittee 

present to the main committee, the but the entire 

subcommittee can actually watch. The public is also 

welcome to watch the main committee meetings by 
17 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

registering on our website. Of course, as the 

subcommittee, you all can say, we all want to be there, 

we all want to present, but generally it's 1 or 2 people 

so that the main committee can just focus on those 1 or 2 

voices and ask them questions. Presentations in the past 

have varied. Some subcommittees have done PowerPoint 

presentations. Some subcommittees have provided, like a 

one-page overview of the progress, some subcommittees. So 

the last subcommittee that I represented, I think we did 

I think they did a PowerPoint. They did a PowerPoint 

presentation. Some subcommittees just provide the 

regulatory text and kind of just talk through it 

verbally. One time we had like a, like an interview like 

type thing where like there was like they sat on the 

stage when we were doing it in person and they like, kind 

of like were volleying back and forth. It was really 

interesting. The sky is really the limit with the 

subcommittee. And I heard that somebody I think, Wade, I 

believe you said that you are like really into music. So 

honestly, we've never had a song before. So, I mean, if 

y'all want to do a song or a feature length movie, I'm 

totally down for that as well. I'd be willing to sing. I 

can't sing, but you know, I'd be willing to participate. 

So my role is simple. It is to listen to your feedback, 

answer questions when I can. I will not be able to answer 
18 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

every question. I can say that right off the bat. 

Sometimes I just won't know the answer. Or sometimes I'll 

need to take it back to the Department. So when I can't 

answer a question, I'll ask our general counsel, Hanna, 

to step in, or Gaby, our director of student support 

services. And like I said, at times we just won't have an 

answer. We'll have to take it back. And I know that's 

kind of frustrating sometimes, I can understand, but 

sometimes I will have to say, we'll just have to take 

that back. Vanessa, as I noted, will share her screen, no 

recommendations. And so if the subcommittee if a 

subcommittee member wants something put on the screen or 

if FMCS, Krystil wants something put on the screen, or if 

me, Hannah or Gaby, wants something put on the screen, 

we'll just let Vanessa know. And Vanessa also can, you 

know, take liberty to, like, put relevant things she 

hears on the screen as well. And that could be in a 

comment bubble. Or sometimes we'll just cross language 

out and put new language in there. That doesn't mean that 

it'll be like the final subcommittee recommendation. That 

just means that we're just trying to take notes and, 

like, keep up with the discussion. I'm almost done. I 

know I've been going for quite some time. Like we said, 

limit to five minutes and I've been going on forever. 

But, so I will assist you all in coming up with a 
19 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

recommendation for the main committee. We'll go through 

the language that the Department has recommended as a

starting place and the issue papers, so that you have an 

idea of the Federal Government's perspective. However, I 

don't control your recommendation. And you'll present 

what you want to the main committee. And one thing to 

keep in mind is that there are 15 negotiators and an 

additional Federal negotiator that gets to weigh in on 

consensus for the proposals as well. I am not a federal

negotiator. The only Federal negotiator for this 

committee is Gregory Martin. And if you watch in 

February, if you didn't get a chance to watch the last 

four days, if you watch in February, you'll see who 

Gregory Martin is. I can't tell you. Yes, the Department 

agrees or no, we don't wish to go in that direction. But 

I may at times after a lunch break or during the second 

session in February, be able to relay a general direction 

that the Department could decide to explore based on the 

commentary that we hear today. At the second session in 

February of the subcommittee, you may see different 

proposals or different amendatory language from the 

Department. And again, as the subcommittee, you can 

accept or reject them and go to the main committee with 

your own proposal. Once this information is presented to 

the main committee, they will have a chance to question 
20 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

the subcommittee's rationale and even change the language 

prior to the consensus vote. I will break today at 12 

noon, and then we'll resume at 1 p.m. Please keep your 

cameras on for the duration of the meeting. But if you 

need to step away or take a break, you can, you know, 

from just staring into the camera the whole time, you 

know, you can turn it off, but, you know, just for the 

public's sake, I think it helps to see folks and just get 

to know us a little better. So I also want to say I talk 

very fast. I know that. I am from Buffalo, New York. I 

don't know if it's Buffalo thing or not but if I start 

to, like, kind of go too fast, like somebody, anybody can 

just, you know, Krystil, as a facilitator, anybody can 

like, you know, raise their hands and say, hey, Aaron, we 

need you to slow down, you're just talking way too fast. 

So with that. Do you all have any questions?

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Hearing none. 

Alright. Hearing none, I will just go over- first of all, 

thank you so much, Aaron, for all of that, for going over 

and giving us, you know, a general overview of negotiated 

rulemaking, what the main committee does and what here at 

the subcommittee we're tasked with doing. I do just want 

to briefly explain my role again as a neutral third-party

facilitator. Cindy and I work at the Federal Mediation 

and Conciliation Service. It is a very small agency. It 
21 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

is independent. We are trained in facilitation skills. We 

are here to help this process. You all are the subject 

matter experts about TRIO Programs. And we are here to 

make sure that the discussion flows, that we're timely 

and that we, to the best of our ability stay on topic and 

on track. So Cindy and I will be helping with that. There 

are a few things that I want to point out. First is, and 

Aaron did mention this, you all may not know because we 

don't see it, but there actually is an American Sign 

Language interpreter right now that is interpreting 

everything we say for those that are watching in the 

public. So to the extent that we can, those of us from 

Buffalo or Houston that, you know, we tend to talk a 

little fast, if we can be mindful and just, you know, 

talk at a mindful pace, right? So that the interpreter, 

can ensure that everyone understands everything that 

we're saying. The second thing is, it's a small group. If 

you've watched, you know, if you watched the last 

committees or anything earlier this week, it was three 

times the size. So we are smaller. But we'll still want 

to make sure that we abide by the same, you know, zoom 

etiquette. So if you have something to say, everyone here 

has a seat at this subcommittee table. And you're welcome 

to say, you know what you like. We just ask you to raise 

your virtual hands. That does help us know who did it 
22 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

first. It also kind of highlights it on the screen. So 

you can just raise your hand. It's at the bottom. It says 

raise hand. It's pretty simple. If you can't find it, 

just send me a text and we can point that out to you. The 

other thing is, when you are addressing and talking and 

providing information or asking questions, we ask that 

you, you know, be concise in your statements. Do try to 

stay on topic. We'll be here to assist with that. The 

other thing is, while we don't have a set time limit, 

we're probably going to start breaking it around five 

minutes. If your remarks go over five minutes, we'll 

just, you know, bring that to your attention and ask you 

to wrap up just so that other people may have an 

opportunity to speak. And that just kind of facilitates 

more of a conversation of back and forth. It doesn't mean 

that you can't rejoin the queue. But we are asking you to 

be mindful of that. With that said, Cindy, can you think 

of anything else, any other housekeeping or?

MS. JEFFRIES: No, I think between you 

and Aaron, you've done an excellent job covering 

everything.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Excellent. 

With that being said, I do think we are ready to turn it 

over to Aaron now. Aaron mentioned- Aaron is not timed. 

He is the lead of the subcommittee, so he may have to 
23 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

speak a little over five minutes, right, to kind of 

explain or give us an overview. So we won't really be 

looking at his timing, so to speak. But with that being 

said, Aaron, we'd like to turn it over to you, to give us 

an overview of I think we're going to begin first with a 

summary of the three TRIO Programs that are at issue 

today. Correct?

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah. So my next 

section is about two hours. No, I'm just joking, it's not 

two hours. So, yeah, I just wanted to, so for the public, 

I know that you all are experts in this area, but for the 

public that may be watching, I just wanted to give a 

super high level brief overview of the three TRIO 

Programs that we'll be discussing today. I do also want 

to turn it back over to Krystil when I'm done to, you 

know, just in case somebody from the subcommittee might 

want to offer more with their personal experience about 

the TRIO programs or anything that you'd like to add to 

the discussion about what the TRIO Programs actually do 

or like some real-world examples of how they've been 

implemented. And also Gaby, of course, you know, as the

Director of Student Support Services can jump in at any 

time to provide any more information that she would like 

to add. A lot of this information is publicly available 

on our website. So the Talent Search Program identifies 
24 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

and assists individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds 

who have the potential to succeed in higher education. 

The program provides academic, career, and financial 

counseling to its participants and encourages them to 

graduate from high school and continue on to complete 

their postsecondary education. The program publicizes the 

availability of financial aid and assist participants 

with the postsecondary application process. Talent Search 

also encourages persons who have not completed education 

programs at the secondary or postsecondary level to enter 

or reenter and complete postsecondary education. The goal 

of Talent Search is to increase the number of youth from 

disadvantaged backgrounds who complete high school and 

enroll in and complete their postsecondary education. So 

it's kind of a high-level overview of Talent Search. Did 

anybody else want to talk about their personal 

experience? Gabby, did you have anything?

MS. WATTS: No, thank you. No, Aaron, 

I think you covered it. Just another fact. Currently we 

are- the Talent Search Program is serving over 300,000 

eligible participants. So we're making an impact. But, 

no, that's all I have to say about that, Aaron.

MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you, Gaby. 

Alright. Next up is Upward Bound. Actually, I don't know 

if I said this, I actually participated in Upward Bound 
25 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

as well. You know, when I was in high school in Buffalo. 

But Upward Bound provides fundamental support to 

participants in their preparation for college entrance. 

The program provides opportunities for participants to 

succeed in their pre-college performance and ultimately 

in their higher education pursuits. Upward Bound serves 

high school students from low-income families and high 

school students from families in which neither parent 

holds a bachelor's degree. The goal of Upward Bound is to 

increase the rate at which participants complete 

secondary education and enroll in and graduate from 

institutions of postsecondary education.

MS. WATTS: Aaron, the thing I would 

like to add about Upward Bound is we call that our 

flagship program. It was the very first program that 

started out, in 1964. Currently, we serve about 74,000 

students in our regular Upward Bound program. As time 

progressed, from 1964 up until now, we've had a couple of 

programs added on. As part of an Upward Bound program, we 

have the Upward Bound math and science program that 

focuses basically on encouraging students to pursue 

degrees in college in the math area so they can get 

careers in math. And we have about 15,000 participants 

we're helping with that. And then we also have our 

Veterans Upward Bound that assist our Veterans who have 
26 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

served our country over the years. And we have about 8000 

programs with that. So Upward Bound has been going 

strong. What's that? If you were in 64 for what, almost 

60 years? Almost 60 years. So thank you for that.

MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you, Gaby. 

Anybody else on the subcommittee want to add anything to 

Upward Bound and your personal experiences or? Well, 

Krystil, do we have anybody? I can't see them.

MS. K. SMITH: No, we don't.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright. Okay. 

Alright. And the final TRIO Program that that the 

Department is proposing to discuss today is the 

Educational Opportunity Centers. So the Educational 

Opportunity Centers Program provides counseling and 

information on college admissions to qualified adults who 

want to enter or continue a program of postsecondary 

education. The program also provides services to improve 

the financial and economic literacy of participants. An 

important objective of the program is to counsel 

participants on financial aid options, including basic 

financial aid, basic financial planning skills, and to 

assist in the application process. The goal of the EOC 

program is to increase the number of adult participants 

who enroll in postsecondary education.

MS. WATTS: Yes. You know, Aaron, we 
27 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

did not want to leave our adults out because we all need 

assistance. And that's exactly what EOC does. We work on

providing information for college enrollment, the college 

application process, financial aid. We try to assist 

those adults who did not pursue or maybe they thought 

they could not pursue. You know, our main goal here is to 

always provide the motivation and support that is 

necessary for our participants to succeed. Currently, we 

are serving over 200,000 participants in the EOC program. 

So we're making an impact. Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Does anybody else want 

to add anything about EOC? Alright, Aaron, I think you're 

free to move on.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright.

MS. K. SMITH: That brings us to theour- the overview, right?

MR. WASHINGTON: That's it. We're into 

the overview of the issue papers. So I think maybe would 

be a good time for Vanessa Gomez. Krystil, do you want?

MS. K. SMITH: Yeah. Vanessa, can youdo you mind sharing the screen for on page one? There we 

go.

MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you so much, 

Vanessa. Let's see. So let me move this out of the way. I 

have so many screens up. So. I know you've all had a 
28 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

chance to read the issue paper. I think we- I think 

they've been published on our website for quite some time 

now. So as you can see there, the subcommittee is tasked 

with one topic, and that's what the Department is 

proposing. It's one topic, and that is to review 

eligibility of TRIO participants in the three 

postsecondary programs that I just discussed, the three 

TRIO Programs that we just gave a high-level overview of. 

Currently, each of these programs outlines that 

participant eligibility must include a review of 

citizenship. So participants must be U.S. Citizens, U.S. 

Nationals. U.S. Nationals are individuals that were born 

in American Samoa or the Swains Islands. They can also be 

a participant in the three programs can also be lawful 

permanent residents. That lawful permanent resident is aso sometimes I'll be like using terms that are listed in 

statute the law. And so I know that our language in 2024 

has progressed a little faster than some language that 

may be in the statute, but these are legal terms. These 

are not terms that like, we've just created for this 

subcommittee. But lawful permanent residents are also 

eligible to participate. These are individuals that have 

been granted, lawful permanent residency in the United 

States by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security or 

DHS. So I'll probably refer to the agency as DHS 
29 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

throughout the rulemaking. Residents of Freely Associated 

States. There's a compact of Freely Association that 

Governs the relationship between the United States and 

individuals from the Republic of the Marshall Islands, 

the Federal states of Micronesia and the Republic of 

Palau. And also, eligible non-citizens are able to 

participate in TRIO. This appears in the TRIO regulations 

as individuals that are in the United States for other 

than a temporary purpose and provide evidence from 

Immigration and Naturalization Service of his or her 

intent to become a permanent resident. So the regulations 

still say, Immigration and Naturalization Services, which 

is INS, but the agency is- the name of the agency changed 

to DHS? So that's the agency that they're referring to in 

the regulations. And so I know that was, I know that 

we've gone to a lot of information. So I just wanted to 

stop here, to see if there are any questions. I did not 

go through every single category of eligible noncitizens. There are several categories of individuals who 

are here for other than a temporary purpose that are 

eligible to participate in TRIO. So I can go through 

those if you like to provide an explanation if you're not 

familiar with them. Or maybe the public might want an 

explanation. I mean, I don't know how we would know if 

the public wanted an explanation, but, you know, if 
30 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

you're hearing from the public that they want an 

explanation. So I'll pause there.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. So, thank you, 

Aaron, for the summary of the issues. And before we 

actually get to the proposal and your overview of what 

the Department is proposing. I do just want to point some 

things out before we start making comments from the 

subcommittee. One, you are able to use the chat feature. 

And that will become part of a transcript. So everything 

that we say will eventually be transcripted as well. So 

we can help out the people that are going to be typing 

and also speaking slowly and clearly. But you can put 

things in the chat box. So, if there is something that 

said that you agree with, that's great. You don't have to 

raise your hand just simply to say, I agree with what has 

just been said. That you can put support for in the chat 

box, that there is a record of it. The Department will 

see that, you know, there are a number of people that 

agree. So that will just, help us on time and still 

creates that record. So do feel free to use the chat. You 

can also share links, you know, if there's other 

information that you want people to look at that's 

helpful, you can put that there. Just know that 

eventually anything that is in the chat box in zoom right 

now will be, you know, can be made available to the 
31 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

public. So, and it will become part of the record for 

this. Is there any questions about that before we move on 

to hearing the overview of the proposal? Okay seeing no 

hands. Aaron, I think we are free to move on.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright. So the 

Department proposes to expand participant eligibility for 

those who do not meet the citizen or non-citizen 

requirements to better align with the goals of the Higher 

Education Act, which I said earlier was the law of the 

statute that authorizes the TRIO Programs. So I 

highlighted earlier in my brief overview of the three- in 

my brief overview of the three programs and question that 

they were authorized and have served students from 

underrepresented backgrounds, which include homeless or 

unhoused individuals, individuals with disabilities, 

individuals who are limited in English proficiency, and 

individuals who are in foster care or are aging out of 

foster care, and also lower income individuals. We 

propose that if- we propose that if a prospective 

participant does not meet the existing requirements, then 

the individual would be able to qualify for some of the 

three trial programs if they are enrolled in or seek to 

enroll in a high school in the United States, the Freely 

Associated States or one of the U.S. Territories. So by 

seeks to enroll, we're referring to students who are in 
32 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

sixth, seventh, or eighth grade and students that may 

have dropped out and are re enrolling in middle school or 

high school. Otherwise, stated a participant that is not 

a U.S. Citizen, national or eligible non-citizen would be 

able to participate in the three TRIO Programs under 

discussion if the prospective participant is enrolled in 

or seeks to enroll in high school in the United States. 

Since we're limiting changes to the programs that- since 

we're limiting changes to the programs that serve 

students at the high school level, McNair and student 

support services are not included in our proposed 

changes. In deciding to expand services in a world of 

limited resources, the Department has determined that the 

most vulnerable populations are children who do not yet 

have a basic education, which is a necessary step on the 

pathway towards postsecondary education. We also believe 

that these changes will help simplify program 

administration. Simpler and broader eligibility criteria 

will especially help programs where a TRIO grantee may be 

providing a range- where the trial grantee may be 

providing a range of services to students with differing 

levels of intensity and involvement. Because there's an 

overlapping purpose of the TRIO Programs to support 

students from the most disadvantaged backgrounds and 

prepare them for a postsecondary education, we believe 
33 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

that expanding TRIO- expanding the TRIO grant programs to 

provide supports for additional underserved K-12 students 

to achieve this most basic level of education will 

further the statutory purpose of these programs.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Is there any 

questions or comments about that portion of the proposal?

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah, we'll get down, 

Krystil- we'll get down into, like, the actual, like, reg 

language soon, but like, you know, thank you for pausing 

here. Because, well, you know, for, like, asking- because 

I just wanted to, like, I just want to take a deep 

breath. I know, like, it's a lot of, like, me reading and 

a lot of, you know, so I just want to just- if anybody 

has like general comments so far.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. It looks like 

everyone is tracking. I think we're free to move on.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright. So I do- we 

know and I know that there are many issues in the TRIO 

space that you will likely want to bring to the table 

beyond participant eligibility. Things like technical 

fixes, changes to definitions or anything beyond the 

scope of participant eligibility that appear in other 

parts of the TRIO regulations. The Department has 

proposed this issue paper to limit the topic to 

participant eligibility, so keep that in mind when 
34 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

developing proposals for the main committee that may 

greatly deviate from the area we have proposed here. I 

think another thing to keep in mind is that the main 

committee has, I don't know, I can't see the screen, but 

maybe with a show of hands. Did anybody get a chance to 

watch the last four days of rulemaking? Not even all day, 

every day, but just any of the days?

MS. K. SMITH: I'm seeing some head 

nods.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright. So the main, 

thank you, crystal, the main committee has topics related 

to accreditation, return of Title IV aid, state 

authorization, distance education, and cash management to 

discuss an addition to this topic. And so if you had a 

chance to see it or you watched the main committee 

sessions during February, I think the Department also 

publishes- they're not up yet. They're not up yet. But, I 

think we'll also publish them at some point to our 

website. So you can just take a look at them if you're 

interested in looking at other topics. You'll see that 

each topic has kind of an allocated time, like one- I 

can't remember, Krystil what is it like one two hours for 

each topic per day? I think that's what we did. Or like 

some of the topics also have a day, right?

MS. K. SMITH: We have- accreditation 
35 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

had a little bit more but that's about right.

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah. So you know 

just keep that in mind that there are other topics that 

the main committee has discussed. That is not to say that 

this topic is not extremely important to you all, the 

Department and the public and ask the participants that 

participate in TRIO. It's just to keep in mind that there 

are other topics discussed, and we will have to allocate 

time during the second session for one of you or two of 

you to present to the main committee on TRIO. And there 

could be a lot of discussion about this one topic. So I'm 

only intending to caution the subcommittee from 

submitting proposals that the main committee would not be 

able to take and that will limit the ability to reach 

consensus. Because that's the whole goal, right? Like the 

whole goal is to try and I guess persuade the main 

committee to reach consensus on what we present to them. 

And we do believe that this proposal, even here, even 

pre, you know, discussion will greatly expand access to 

the TRIO Programs.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright, so does 

everyone understand the scope that Aaron is presenting 

for what we're discussing? Okay. So at this time, Aaron, 

I think we are ready to go into what we call the reg 

text, right? The proposed amended language. We will start 
36 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

with 643.3, who is eligible to participate in a project? 

With Talent Search. And it is shared on the screen now.

MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you. So we'll 

just take Talent Search and the EOCs together. I know 

they are totally different programs, different goals, but 

we can take them both together. I think staying on Talent 

Search Vanessa is fine, because the language we're 

proposing to add is exactly the same. So, you know, let's 

see. We're proposing to add one paragraph and you'll see 

that in red. I think it's five. Let me see. Alright. Six. 

Paragraph six. And that paragraph reads, so basically, 

you know, we're maintaining the citizen non-citizen 

requirements, right? So you'll still see, like I talked 

earlier about, you know, participant would have to be a 

U.S. citizen, permanent resident, national or eligible

non-citizen or a resident of a freely associated state. 

But then we're proposing to add that if an individual 

does not meet one of these requirements, then the 

individual is enrolled and or seeks to enroll in high 

school in the United States territories or Freely 

Associated States. So and that is for- so that's the same 

as- Vanessa, can you- would you be able to scroll down to 

Education Opportunity Centers? That's it there. So you 

can see it's the same language for both those programs. 

I'll pause there.
37 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. And if we can, 

just be specific, since we're- Aaron has proposed that we 

look at both of them together. Just say, you know, these 

are either related to both Talent Search and EOC or just 

one or the other. Okay, so we see Aaron has provided us 

with the Department's goal as well as the proposed reg 

text, reg language. Are there any comments?

MR. WASHINGTON: And, you know, we're 

looking for, I mean,- it doesn't- so basically like how's 

rule making has gone is like, you can provide general 

feedback like, you know, from what you've heard in the 

community. You can just say, I like it. You can- it 

doesn't have to be like specific regulatory proposal like 

language proposals. You can just provide whatever is on 

your mind.

MS. K. SMITH: The feedback as well as 

anything that we certainly- the subcommittee wants the 

main committee to consider when they're looking at this 

language as well. Alright. So we do have Wade. Wade?

MR. WILLIAMS: Has the Department with 

this proposal, while I agree that it would expand access 

to many more students. Has the Department thought through 

because, for instance, I'm in Missouri. I'm in a state 

that has pretty restrictive, if not prohibitive access 

for undocumented students. So and I realized that the 
38 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

language is saying that it allows them to serve- programs 

to serve these students if they, you know, if they choose 

to it doesn't mean that they have to, but they can. But, 

I'm just thinking through has the Department thought 

through then what the ramifications would be on changing? 

Because that would also affect prior experience, like I'm 

thinking in the state of Missouri because if we serve 

those students, they come through our programs, we serve 

them, they complete, you know, Upward Bound talent 

search. Then they go to college. Then they're faced with 

their having to pay international tuition rates and all 

these other obstacles. They're limited to resources that 

they have available at the postsecondary level. A lot of 

them tend to not go or continue on if they can do a 

semester or two. And then those students are in, you 

know, they're in those cohorts that you're being graded 

upon on your annual performance report. So has the 

Department thought through, kind of some domino effects 

of making this regulatory change for?

MS. K. SMITH: Aaron, are you? Okay. 

Alright. Thank you, Wade. Aaron looks like you have a 

response.

MR. WASHINGTON: Sure. Yeah, well, 

thank you for that. So, you know, the first part- so in 

adding the in proposing to add paragraph six to the 
39 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

regulations that would mean so a program could- if the 

language is adopted by the main committee, a program 

could not choose to serve a student that was eligible for 

participation in the three TRIO Programs we're 

discussing. So if the student- if the prospective 

participant met all the criteria, like if they were not a 

U.S. citizen or eligible non-citizen but did seek to 

enroll or seek to enroll in high school, the program 

could not deny them admission if they met the eligibility 

criteria. I think there are some other eligibility 

criteria for each of the programs that we're discussing 

that Gaby can get more into, but as long as they meet all 

of the eligibility criteria, a program, obviously this is 

not a final regulation yet but if this were to become a 

final regulation, a TRIO Program couldn't deny them 

access to the programs based on their undocumented status 

as long as they did meet that criteria of enrolling or 

seeking to roll in high school in the United States. So I 

think- I hope that answers your first part. I did- we are 

aware that there are some institutions that as an 

admissions policy, like some postsecondary institutions 

as admissions policy, do not accept undocumented students 

and so that- the Department itself, as the Federal 

Department, generally does not have authority over 

admissions requirements for schools. There is one like 
40 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

interesting place that we do. I won't get into like it's 

kind of like related to service members, but, we 

generally don't have authority over admissions 

requirements, so we wouldn't be able to comment on the, 

you know, the admissions requirements for a postsecondary 

institution in the state of Missouri. So you are correct, 

a student, if the proposal were adopted and to become 

final regulation, there could be, let's say, an Upward 

Bound student that met all the criteria, under the 

proposal, an undocumented student that enrolled or sought 

to enroll in a high school in the United States and then, 

subsequently sought to enroll at a college in Missouri, 

that did not accept undocumented students for 

postsecondary education. But, you know, the Department

itself has authority over the Federal Title IV Federal 

student aid and the Federal programs that it administers, 

including the TRIO Program. So that's- and I turn it to 

Hannah or Gaby if they had anything more to add to that.

MS. WATTS: I will yield to you Hannah 

if you want to go first if you had anything to add.

MS. HODEL: I don't have anything to 

add at this time.

MS. WATTS: Okay, well, you know, 

Wade, you're absolutely correct. We would look at the 

annual performance report to determine how we would still 
41 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

be able to capture that information if a student, say for 

instance, is not, if this is an Upward Bound program is 

not able to say that that participant went on to college 

because they did not enroll. But also keep in mind that 

when you are establishing an objective, you sort of keep 

all those barriers in mind when you are establishing that 

objective. So you could still perhaps meet the objective 

based upon how you've done your research and your 

strategizing for that objective. And you can still meet 

that objective. But of course, for our programs, we 

always want to know what happens to a student. So it is 

perhaps we would have to adjust the APR, maybe add 

another field where we say unknown or some other thing on 

there. But we would take all of that into consideration 

for the APR.

MS. K. SMITH: Thank you, Gaby. 

Emalyn?

MS. LAPUS: I just wanted to say, 

well, and sorry to oppose, I mean, have a contradictory 

comment as to what Wade said, but in California, I think 

this added language will be significantly beneficial for 

our programs. You know, we are fortunate California being 

a little bit more liberal, maybe the Bay area 

specifically, that our colleges do accept undocumented 

students. The challenges with the financial aid support 
42 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

that they are limited to. But, I do want to say for 

California, this will be very helpful. I know a lot of my 

TRIO colleagues would appreciate this. So thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Thank you, Emalyn. Any 

other comments about the proposed changes to either the 

talent search or the EOC? D'Angelo?

MR. SANDS: Hi. Thank you so much. I 

do want to say, you know, I do appreciate the Department.

MS. K. SMITH: Oh, D'Angelo. If you 

can speak maybe a little closer because it sounded like 

we lost you. Yeah.

MR. SANDS: Is that better?

MS. K. SMITH: It is.

MR. SANDS: Okay. I do want to express 

my appreciation to the Department for considering 

surveying or adding an additional population to the 

group. We know that TRIO Programs have a large group of 

diversity that we currently serve. Where my concerns 

lies, though, is really on the collegiate level is once 

the language is added and students then transition or 

graduate from high school. Where do they go next? And so 

my question is has the Department considered language 

that would allow or is pursuing anything that would allow 

this particular population in the near future to have 

access to higher Ed? Or is there anything in the works 
43 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

that would give TRIO Programs some kind of idea how to 

guide students from where they are now to where they go 

next, and so forth? I hope that makes sense.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Aaron?

MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you. Just a 

clarifying question. Are you referring to access to 

higher Ed in, like, kind of, like trying to for the 

Department to like, dictate admissions policies of 

postsecondary institutions. Are you talking about access 

to higher Ed, like the higher Ed TRIO Programs like 

Student Support Services and McNair?

MR. SANDS: Yeah, in reference to 

Student Support Services and McNair.

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah. So, am I on 

mute? Am I- I'm not on mute.

MS. K. SMITH: We can hear you.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright. So, the 

expansion, so I have, you know, the expansion of the 

eligibility in the pre postsecondary programs is based on 

the fact that it is unlawful to deprive children of a 

basic education. But a state has chosen to make available 

to U.S. Citizens based on the children's immigration 

status. We believe that children who are constitutionally 

guaranteed equal access to basic K-12 education should 

also be eligible to receive TRIO services to assist in 
44 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

their achievement toward the path of postsecondary 

education. This proposal also aligns TRIO with the 

treatment of students without documentation and other K12 and other Federal K-12 spending programs that allow 

participants, such as state education agencies and local 

education agencies to spend funds on students without 

regard to immigration status. So, because high schools 

seek to graduate students who are ready for college and 

career, there is an overlapping purpose for the TRIO 

Programs to support students from the most disadvantaged 

backgrounds and prepare them for a program for 

postsecondary education. So while the primary focus of 

the TRIO Programs remains postsecondary achievement, all 

high school students should receive college preparation 

as a foundation to meeting the primary goal of TRIO. So 

we are definitely- D'Angelo, thank you for your comments, 

we're definitely open to hearing your input on the, you 

know, on the policy of expanding eligibility to three 

programs now. So if you're making a proposal to extend 

programing to populations, we're definitely interested in 

hearing that. We want to hear if there's already Federal 

funding, education spending on any population that you 

propose to reach. I think, you know, a lot of times 

you'll hear at rulemaking, which we encourage, absolutely 

folks making proposals or, you know, providing their 
45 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

opinion, their relevant opinions from their background 

and their expertise in the field. And that's why we do 

this. I think, you know, when making proposals, we also 

would need some sort of, something to base that on. So 

likely could not just be, I want it to be this way, you 

know, we would want like okay is there already Federal 

education spending on these populations. Can you provide 

some statute or something that you're aware of that would 

provide the basis of expanding eligibility to the Student 

Support Services and McNair? I can just- so we've done 

subcommittees a lot so I can just provide like a quick 

example. Vanessa will remember this. So during the Prison 

Education Program subcommittee, the Department proposed 

to approve prison education programs. And so we had to 

base- but that wasn't necessarily in statute. But we did 

have to base it on something, some sort of something in 

the history of the Title IV programs. And so we based it 

on- we the Department does approve a lot of programs like 

direct assessment programs or short time programs. And so 

that's what we based our rationale on. So we would just 

need you know, and all that is in regulation already. So 

we would so, you know, D'Angelo when you go back and 

think more you know about that expansion. If you could 

provide like some, maybe some like rationale based in 

statute or like anything that you can find in the history 
46 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

of other Federal programs that would, you know, that 

would, that could be persuasive and expanding the 

eligibility beyond the three TRIO Programs that are at 

hand.

MS. K. SMITH: And if I, before I get 

to Geof, I can just add, if, you know, along with any 

proposals as Aaron was saying, if you do wish to make 

proposals, about anything, you know, adding on to the 

existing three or getting support for looking at any of 

the other TRIO Programs. You can do so by sending that 

information to us, your proposal over to us to myself at 

FMCS. We will distribute that out to everyone, including 

the Department. And as Aaron said, just try to the best 

of your ability, you know, add some rationale or some 

reasoning as well as any reg text if you're going to be 

posing any language, make sure that that's clear. So that 

could be sent over to us and we'll make sure that 

everyone has an opportunity to see it. We'll also be 

sharing that with the main committee. So with that said, 

I'll go to Geof first.

MR. GARNER: Thank you so much. You 

know, I wanted to mention just and a question. I really 

applaud the decision to serve all of our students in 

postsecondary education. Thank you for that language. You 

know, in the 60s, the civil rights movement, TRIO was a 
47 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

champion and had battles and fought really hard to gain 

bipartisan support for specific language that we're 

serving low-income first-generation students. I'm 

wondering, you know, in the historical light of civil 

rights achievements and bipartisan support, has the 

Department considered this change in how it might affect 

our ability to get reauthorized funding from bipartisan 

Congress? You know, with a shifting of partisan lines of 

inquiry, we are and with race consideration and being 

rejected by the Supreme Court and, you know, 

postsecondary education. I'm wondering just what kind of 

thought the Department has put into keeping our programs 

safe with funding and for the Department and TRIO in 

general?

MS. K. SMITH: Aaron, did you have a 

response?. Go ahead Aaron and then we'll.

MR. WASHINGTON: You know, I can't 

speak for what Congress would do. You know, just the 

legislative branch, the executive branch were tasked with 

totally different things. So I would like to- I don't 

want to say I'm going to pass on that one, but I would 

like to kind of, you know, at least from my responses 

stick to what the executive branch can do. We- certainly 

the Department supports this proposal. And, you know, we 

believe that expanding access in this way is going to 
48 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

help a lot of disconnected youth. So, that, you know, so 

I can leave that there, Hannah, Gaby, anything?

MS. K. SMITH: They say no. But, Geof, 

that is something you can put into the chat, your 

question. For the Department's consideration.

MR. GARNER: Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Thank you, Geof. Wade?

MR. WILLIAMS: This is not as much the 

TRIO alumni hat as the former EOC director hat. Question 

that I have, but, can you guys talk through maybe theI'm just curious here. I understand, the language and the 

proposal for Upward Bound and for Talent Search. And I 

realize that, you know, those are pre-college. And I 

realize EOC is also considered pre-college as well. But 

when you also are looking at regulations for EOC and who 

can participate, you know, there's the whole being over 

the age of 19, they can be under the age of 19 as long as 

they're not eligible to be served by a Talent Search 

Program. And as long as they wouldn't dilute services. 

And I know for EOCs, there's kind of, you know, having 

dealt with program officers and stuff before, it can be a 

little tricky. Some of those conversations about, you 

know, technically it's not written anywhere, but I was 

always told, you know, no more than 10% of my total 

number should be, you know, high school students or high 
49 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

school seniors within the number that I'm serving in the 

year. Is there a specific, I mean, I guess has that been 

thought through as well as how would this dilute or is 

this going to dilute services for EOC programs as they're 

trying to serve adult students?

MR. WASHINGTON: I'd like to turn that 

to Gaby. And if we don't have answer right now, we can 

come back to you maybe after lunch.

MS. WATTS: No, I can go ahead and 

answer now. Wade, I'm not sure whether 10%, came from 

regarding that's the only percentage you can have of 

talent search eligible type of individuals in your EOC. 

But keep in mind, the main purpose of EOC is for that 

adult population 19 years of age or older. Projects are 

allowed to serve talent search eligible type of 

participants, if there is no basically no talent search 

in the area and they desperately need service. You're not 

really- a project is not really going out to recruit 

those students, nor to really serve a target school. It's 

just, you know, if they hear about it, they come, you can 

do that. So adding this eligibility, expanding on this 

eligibility, really won't be a deficit for EOC. We see it 

as really an enhancement because there are adults that 19 

years of age are older who still need that guidance in 

terms of college enrollment, financial aid and all of 
50 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

that. So we don't see it as really diluting the services 

for EOC. The EOC program is still the EOC program. You 

can still serve those talent search eligible, but they 

should not be the main focus of your EOC.

MS. K. SMITH: And it looks like, did 

you have something to add, Wade?

MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I was wondering 

if, no, because I think because the language is focused 

on more about youth and not necessarily the adult 

undocumented adults. So I won't go there yet unless itI'm just trying to think it through. Is there a better 

way to write something to broaden eligibility for EOC 

adults? But this is more focused on the youth I believe 

so.

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah. And I, you 

know, I can just add a little bit if that's okay, 

Krystil? So, you know, I kind of mentioned earlier that 

there are- we do have limited resources for the TRIO 

Programs. And, you know, I think, while we are expanding 

the universe of eligible participants, we wanted to 

moderate the expansion due to the limited resources. So, 

in determining how to expand, we are focusing on the most 

vulnerable populations we believe and determine that the 

most vulnerable populations is children who do not yet 

have the basic education that comes from high school 
51 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

completion, which we think is necessary, a necessary step 

towards postsecondary education.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Any other 

thoughts on the proposed text and Talent Search and EOC? 

Is your hand still up, Wade? No. Okay. Alright. Is there 

anything else from either Hannah or Gaby before we go on 

to the last proposal, the last regulatory text?

MS. WATTS: Not from me.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Aaron, I think we 

can go on to our final one, which I believe is, the 

Upward Bound project. Oh, you're on mute.

MR. WASHINGTON: I'm on mute.

MS. K. SMITH: And Vanessa has shared 

the screen.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright, so let's 

continue the conversation with the amendatory language of 

Upward Bound. Here, we're proposing to add a paragraph 

that reads, if an individual does not meet the 

requirements of paragraphs one through five, the 

individual is enrolled in or seeks to enroll in a high 

school in the United States, territories are Freely 

Associated States provided further that an individual who 

is eligible to participate under this paragraph isparticipate under the subparagraph is not eligible for a 

direct cash stipend. And so under 34 CFR. The CFR is the 
52 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

Code of Federal Regulations. That's where like the Upward 

Bound regulations are. You all know that this is for the 

public. 34 CFR 645.42. Upward Bound may provide a monthly 

stipend to a participant who participates on a full-time

basis. And the amount of stipend is outlined in 

regulation in the law. Before I return it back over to 

Krystil, I just wanted to ask Gaby, did she want to say 

anything about the stipend? I want to make sure I said 

that right. They're eligible for the monthly stipend and 

it's outlined in the regulation in the law. Anything to 

add to that?

MS. WATTS: No. According to our- the 

regulations, you know, on the academic year, they can 

receive $40 a month, and during the summer they can 

receive $60 per month. But I think what we're saying 

here, if they are selected for the program and they are 

not a U.S. Citizen or documented, then they would not be 

eligible to receive a stipend.

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah. Sorry. I don't 

even know if I finished, like, explaining it. Like, thank 

you Gaby. Yeah. So basically. So. Yeah. So if they don't 

meet, if they don't meet- I have like all these notes, 

you know what I'm saying. And I'm like, did I get 

everything in the notes? I don't know, but yeah. So like 

Gaby said, thank you for saving me there. If they don't 
53 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

meet all of the non-citizens- if they're not a U.S. 

Citizen, national lawful permanent resident, like asylee 

refugee, you know, Cuban Haitian entrant, all those 

eligible non-citizen categories or citizen of the Freely 

Associated States, then they would have to- then they 

would- they don't have to meet those criteria as long as 

they're enrolled or seeking to enroll in high school. 

United States. The only caveat for this one is that they 

can't receive the direct cash stipend. So that's- so 

sorry. Thank you for saving me. And you'll see that was 

like the one difference. That's why we separated out EOCs 

and Talent Search. Because, you know, EOCs and Talent 

Search don't come with a direct cash stipend and Upward 

Bound does. And so they would if let's say I guess, for 

example, if the- like we've been talking about the 

undocumented population, undocumented participants, were 

to meet all other eligibility criteria to enroll an 

Upward Bound. They would be able to participate but they 

would not be able to receive the $40 or $60 I believe 

Gaby was referring to.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Wade.

MR. WILLIAMS: Sorry. I just like to 

ask questions. May I ask the reason why they wouldn't be 

provided a stipend? Because my thought is if we're a- if 

a program is able to spend other funding on other things 
54 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

for them and to provide other services what is the- I'm 

just curious as to the reasoning behind that by the 

Department.

MS. K. SMITH: Aaron?

MR. WASHINGTON: This just like shows 

like how good I am with computers. I'm like, let me look 

over, let me look over. Alright. So we believe that. Oh, 

Hannah, did you want to go first?

MS. HODEL: Yeah. I think I'd be happy 

to speak to part of that. I think that, part of our 

concern here was the Personal Responsibility and Work 

Opportunity Reconciliation Act PRWORA, which restricts 

the eligibility of non-qualified aliens, that's the term 

under that statute to receive any Federal public benefit, 

which is defined to include benefits for which payments 

or assistance are provided to an individual. And so that 

is why these stipend payments, we have currently drafted 

this to not include payments under Upward Bound to 

individuals who overlapping would not meet the qualified 

alien definition.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Looks like Wade 

is thinking about that, too. Thank you. Aaron, did you 

want to add anything to that before I went to Emalyn?

MR. WASHINGTON: No. Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Emalyn?
55 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

MS. LAPUS: Two points. One is, I 

think, Hannah, if you could provide us with the name of 

the act that you just mentioned. Because, I mean, I would 

have to- if this does pass through, which I, you know, on 

one hand, it's good. Again, expanding accessibility 

eligibility for us to help more Upward Bound students.

But then I would have to explain to my team why that 

certain group of students would not be eligible to 

receive the cash stipend. So that's one, if you could 

send me that info or just the link. Two, I mean, I 

understand the rules and what has to be followed given 

our current political situation. But in reality, it would 

be- it is kind of a divisiveness because we're going toif I have like five students that meet that criteria and 

my other ten students meet the other criteria and then 

it's going to be like, it's going to be hard to like, 

well, you guys can't get that money, but you guys can. 

So, you know, that's the reality. But yeah, I just wanted 

to make that comment.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. And Emalyn, it 

looks like she did put it in- the name of the act in the 

chat box.

MS. LAPUS: Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: And I'll just say it's 

Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity 
56 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

Reconciliation Act of 1996 for anyone else that's 

interested. Aaron? Thank you, Hannah.

MR. WASHINGTON: I do want to say 

that, thank you for that, Emalyn. We are you know; we do 

have people like, you know, taking note, listening. 

There's a lot of people listening in from the Department 

taking notes. And we hear your concern. Did you have any 

proposal for the Department, or did you want to take some 

time to, like, read through PRWORA and make suggestions 

later?

MS. LAPUS: At this point, no because 

I'm not- I don't- would not have enough of the legal ease 

to I guess argue against this act. I mean, again, I 

understand, in theory and given the current situation 

with, you know, providing certain benefits to, you know, 

undocumented families. But like I said, when it comes 

time to implementing and in reality and practice, it'll 

be difficult. You know, so that's all. But thank you for 

that offer.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Aaron?.

MR. WASHINGTON: And certainly if 

this, I mean, this is, I mean, we're not even at the 

proposed rule. You know, phase of this yet. But if this 

were, let's say, this were this exact language were to 

become a final rule where that would have to be enforced, 
57 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

the Department would certainly provide, you know, 

guidance to TRIO participants on the, you know, the 

requirements and to up to and including, you know, the 

messaging for, you know, the rationale as to why the 

individual would not be eligible for direct cash 

stipends. We do this a lot in the Title IV space. Like 

there's like a whole volume in the Federal Student Aid 

handbook on noncitizen eligibility for Federal student 

aid. So.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Thank you, Aaron, 

for that. And Emalyn.

MS. LAPUS: Well, I just, I guess just 

a thought that came to mind is that I would probably then 

have to work closely with my fiscal agent to seek outside 

funding so we could find another pot of money or other 

external funding so that we would be able to offer that 

stipend to this other group of students. And so that's 

just something I'm thinking, okay, if this does pass, I 

would have to, you know, that's something that I would 

just have to, you know, try to do with my fiscal 

director.

MS. K. SMITH: Thank you, Emalyn. 

Okay. Any other comments? D'Angelo?

MR. SANDS: Thank you so much. Well. 

Again, I do appreciate what the Department is doing and 
58 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

looking to expand services for students. And really, and 

I think it's something that is a great gesture. I think 

it's something that we can look at. Right now, at the 

moment, I'm not sure it would be the best time to 

approach it. And that's just- and hear me out on this, 

you know, across campuses for TRIO Programs, we are 

constantly fighting for support on some of our campuses. 

We are very much aware of the climate the political 

climate and the TRIO Programs have been a target. One of 

the concerns I have is, with expanding eligibility, that 

TRIO funding beyond today or beyond just proposal being 

targeted and future legislative approaches as well as on 

campuses. In today's climate too there are some campuses 

that do provide additional support, for TRIO Programs. 

But I just wonder if would adopting this language and 

opening up what kind of ramifications will follow 

thereafter? And I don't know if that's more of a 

statement. But if you have anything that you can provide 

to help TRIO professionals, the TRIO Programs, think 

along those lines, on what we can expect or maybe check 

the temperature on the timing of providing this type of 

language. If we could simultaneously maybe address the 

collegiate portion of it at a later date. That's just a 

thought. But I welcome any feedback on that from anyone. 

Thank you.
59 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

MS. K. SMITH: Aaron?

MR. WASHINGTON: I think a comment was 

made a little earlier about, you know, what could happen 

with TRIO funding in the future. I kind of, I don't know 

if I said it, I can't, you know, because like Congress is 

authorized with, you know, like, you know, drafting a 

budget, you know, and establishing a budget for the 

Federal expenditures. I can't from the executive branch. 

I mean, the president, of course, has a budget proposal, 

but I cannot speak to what Congress might do from here, 

from my position, from the executive branch. All I can

say is that the Department is extremely supportive of 

this proposal. I've said it several times. We think that 

it will help expand access. And I think you agree, 

D'Angelo, I hear what you're saying. Is it the right time 

to do it? And maybe addressing all TRIO programs at the 

same time in the future. If that is a proposal, if, you 

know, if that- Well, I'll ask you, is that a proposal 

that you would like to discuss more like not doing this 

at all? Not expanding access?

MR. SANDS: Well, I would like to 

discuss maybe adding other suggestive texts to what it 

currently exists for all programs. Something that can be 

applied across the board that benefit TRIO students. 

Maybe better make the- or remove any obstacles for TRIO 
60 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

professionals. You know, for example, if you're looking 

at like, stipend increase, adding Pell Grant language, 

you know, those type of things we can put together and 

submit to the committee and we can discuss those. And 

then we can still further discuss the language that 

currently exists. But really talk through it. Right? 

Because there's so much work that we're currently doing 

as TRIO professional TRIO programs, and we do have a 

large number of students population that we serve. Again, 

I'm an immigrant myself, here, and so I understand the 

need and I've been in a position where I needed help and 

I received that and I want to make sure that TRIO was 

always poised to serve as many students we possibly can, 

but also have things added or put in place to provide 

additional support for those on the ground that's 

providing these services where we don't overextend 

ourselves, where we don't increase turnover, or we feel 

like we're our officers are truly burdened with good 

work. Right? And so, yeah, I would be open to if the 

Department would be open to receiving some information 

that we can share some proposal language, maybe some 

changes or adjustments. I would love that if we can do 

that.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. Thank you, 

D'Angelo. I'll allow Aaron to respond. You're responding 
61 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

to?

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah, well. Thank 

you, D'Angelo. Thank you for that. I think we are 

certainly open and receptive to receiving any proposals. 

I know Vanessa Gomez stands ready to put the issue papers 

on the screen if you want to, you know, we have until 3 

today, so , you know, you can- I don't want to put you on 

the spot. You know, we have lunch and what 20, 30 

minutes. So, you know, thank you, Krystil. So maybe after 

lunch, if you want to come back and talk through some 

language. You know, I just want to make sure I didn't 

interpret what you were saying. For some reason, I 

thought you were saying maybe hold off on certain things, 

but, and then I did hear you say, you know, that you 

wanted to consider some other issues, you know, like 

stipend increases. Now, I will say to that. So I think 

it's really important like to- so I know you all are all 

familiar with this. And so I'm really saying this for the 

public's benefit. But I think it's, Gaby will correct me, 

section 402 (a) of the Higher Education Act kind of is 

where the TRIO Programs are authorized by the statute, 

the Higher Education Act. That is the law that authorizes 

all this stuff in postsecondary education at the Federal 

space. Well, not all of it, but at least the stuff at the 

Department. I think, you know, it might be helpful to 
62 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

look at the statute to see, like, you know, well, we want 

an increase in the stipend for Upward Bound. Just to look 

at the statute to make sure that- and I'm not I don't 

know, Hannah or Gaby can talk to this, better than I can 

but if the statute says, well, Upward Bound students 

receive $40 per month or they receive $60 per month, you 

know, that's something that, you know, Congress has

mandated, the president has signed it and it's made it 

into law. So, you know, we'd have to- you'd have to weigh 

whether the Department through its regulatory powers, can 

actually change the amount of a stipend through 

regulating if the statute is already dictating how much, 

you know, money, folks can get. And I know you talked a 

little bit about, Pell Grants. I think I understand what 

you were talking about. Like there was a comment 

yesterday during the public comment period of rulemaking, 

you were there, you know, asking to expand the definition 

of a low-income individual to include Pell Grant 

recipients. Again, there, I would also say, you know, it 

might be helpful to look at the statute and see like if 

there is a definition which I believe there is a 

definition. I'm not saying that we can't talk about it 

after lunch, but just to see like, hey, if there's 

already a definition about, you know, 100%, 50% of the 

poverty level or things like that, you know, how you see 
63 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

the Department changing a definition that's in statute. 

But yeah, but for sure, submit everything through to 

Krystil and Cindy. And we can also throw it up on the 

screen and Vanessa can type some stuff after lunch or now 

if you want, it's up to you.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. I just want to 

pause here and see if Gaby or Hannah had anything 

additional to say before we go to Wade. Does not look 

like they do. Okay?

MR. SANDS: I just want to say thank 

you. And I will look at possibly sending something during 

the lunch hour. Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Thank you, 

D'Angelo. Wade?

MR. WILLIAMS: Sorry, I didn't realize 

if I hadn't clicked the button, but, I just wanted to 

say, like I wholeheartedly agree with everything that 

D'Angelo had said. And I think, you know, when I got the 

email saying that I was going to get to be a part of 

this, and I got the first session papers and I saw that, 

I mean, I'm excited about the language. I'm excited that 

the Department is looking at ways to expand 

participation. But I'm wondering, while this is a good 

start, are there other ways that we could- Are there 

things that we could do that would make it to where it 
64 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

could expand for all TRIO Programs or, you know, what 

other options do we have out there? I mean, I'm just I 

don't know, I just. I love TRIO. I love everything that 

that TRIO does. I love the impact that it has made on my 

life over the nearly 18 years. What I've seen it do for 

other students and people in my area. I just want to look 

at all options we have available to expand for everybody. 

And maybe not just specific programs.

MS. K. SMITH: Aaron?

MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah. So okay, so 

what I'm hearing is basically from the committee that you 

would like to see the language expanded to students for 

services and McNair. Would that be correct?

MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

MR. WASHINGTON: Alright. So I get, 

you know what, you know, Vanessa, would you mind sharing 

the document? We can- Thank you, Vanessa. I think what we 

can do is just like Vanessa, maybe at the top. Like, 

scroll up a bit. And it's going, keep going up. Keep 

going up. Let's see. Let's just throw, like just throw 

up, you know, a comment bubble. You know what? Put in a 

comment bubble just to say like expand to student 

support, you know, think about ways to expand to student 

support services and McNair. And then are you- so did I 

get that right, Wade? Did you have- were you saying, 
65 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

like, maybe I misinterpreted? Maybe you're saying that 

you [interposing] outside of citizenship?

MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, if we're 

going to consider- yeah, but I'm just thinking, are there 

other ways, you know, if the- taking the citizenship 

piece out, if we're just looking at ways, what are things 

we can do to expand participation that could blank it out 

across more programs. You know, is this the only thing 

that we can do, or is this the best option at the time? 

Like, what else, you know, what other things have been 

maybe proposed? I'm just trying to kind of wrap my head 

or get a better idea.

MR. WASHINGTON: So maybe we can edit 

that, Vanessa. Just to say, can the Department think 

through ways to expand access beyond just an alternativebeyond an alternative to meeting the citizenship 

requirements.

MS. K. SMITH: Yeah, I think.

MR. WASHINGTON: Now, Wade, does that 

capture a little better? Or no? Okay. Thank you. Yeah. 

And I, you know, I can just say that that's kind of like 

why we're here, like, you know, to, you know, get your 

feedback, you know, and I think, you know, we've tried to 

select you as experts in the field to provide us with 

that information. So, Wade, when you go back to your 
66 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

constituents that you represent and, or just, you know, 

amongst the subcommittee, now or after lunch, if you have 

suggestions that we can add to this comment bubble, you 

know, this is the Department's, you know, proposal, 

right? This is what we've thought through in our 

discussions. But we want to hear from you. Are there 

other ways as well? So we're more than welcome- we're 

more than welcoming of your thoughts there.

MS. K. SMITH: Great. Yeah. I think it 

sounds like D'Angelo is working on something over lunch.

And, you know, we beseech others to do and think the 

same. Emalyn?

MS. LAPUS: Yes. Hi. So, Geof posted 

something on the chat. And I don't know- So we, you know, 

of course, having support from COE, we were provided some 

other recommendations that we wanted to present. I didn't 

know if that was going to happen after lunch. And I know 

I sent something; Krystil I sent something to you. But 

one of the items that COE proposed was language that 

would be applicable for all the TRIO Programs, in terms 

of providing access to more services. Whereas one- like 

for example, it was an example of Upward Bound has 

certain language that- it was allowed cost to say, buy tshirts or fees to certain events. And then that language 

would be applicable to all the other TRIO Programs. So 
67 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

that was one of the proposed language- proposed- the 

recommendations. But I don't know if we want to discuss 

that further after lunch or do you also want us to send 

you a copy of the paper that helps, beautifully written, 

that helps indicate the language?

MS. K. SMITH: So just so you know, 

Emalyn, the Department and everyone on the committee has 

received the information that you sent over. So if there 

is anything else you would like to send, you know, do 

send it to Cindy and I and we can get that disseminated. 

If you think it's a- if you would like to bring up the 

recommendations. I mean, we have another 25 minutes 

before we go to lunch. And as Aaron, I believe, you know, 

he stated he- it's something that they can consider. We 

know they've submitted the proposed language and text. 

But if there's something else, it's- I do- Aaron has 

mentioned that it's something that they're willing to 

listen to and we can- and it can be discussed.

MS. LAPUS: I mean, I could send this 

to you and Cindy over lunch and then at the afternoon 

meeting, we could screen share. And again, it was- these 

proposed recommendations were presented by our COE 

president, Ms. Kimberly Jones. So and I think, there are 

some that are specific to certain TRIO Programs, but, 

there's a few that are also- that's applicable to all the 
68 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

TRIO Programs. So I don't know if that helps, and I'll 

definitely send that to you.

MS. K. SMITH: Thank you. Okay. Aaron.

MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you, Emalyn. 

Yeah. And I, you know, yeah, I'd be more than happy. I 

think we'd all be more than happy to. I don't want to 

speak for everybody, but I'd be more than happy to, like, 

hear your, you know, hear you go through the paper as you 

send it so we can, you know, hear your thoughts and maybe 

be able to like, you know, the subcommittee can ask you 

questions about the proposals and, yeah. So if you want 

to wait till after lunch like Krystil said, you can- we 

also still have 22 more minutes. 23 more minutes as well. 

So it's all up to you. But and then also I just wanted to 

go back to Wade. Just, you know, maybe think through like 

during the lunch break like what other populations that 

you would want to expand or that you would want to reach, 

to expand access to and maybe, just some like, ideas 

about that after the lunch break, like, so we can just 

get, I guess, more concrete examples of like, you know, 

to take back to talk about it.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Did Gaby or 

Hannah- when you all sometimes come back on camera I'm 

not sure if that's. Okay. Alright. Geof?

MR. GARNER: Hi there. I just wanted 
69 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

to point out some of the testimony that President

Kimberly Jones gave yesterday from the counsel for 

Opportunity and Education specific to what D'Angelo was 

saying about the stipends. It's a really important one. I 

think just if we can address the updating our $40 stipend 

a month, and having it be more of an incentive versus a 

disincentive when a participant's thinking about they can 

make, you know, $40 an hour or $30 an hour interning 

versus working with our TRIO Programs nowadays. That 

would be, you know, an excellent starting point. And I 

think adopting the whole slate of recommendations from 

COE that has already been submitted, but, specifically, 

we would want the Department to look towards that 

Bipartisan, Bicameral Education and Success Act of 2023 

as the model for guidance and adjusting the student 

stipends within our TRIO program. I think that one was 

really pertinent to this thread of our conversation. 

Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Thank you, Geof. Okay. 

Any other comments? I know it looks like. Oh, Aaron?

MR. WASHINGTON: So, Geof, it sounds 

to me like what you just said was, is going to be part of 

what Emalyn has, is that right? Emalyn, is that part- are 

you going to be talking about the COE recommendations? Oh 

okay. Alright. Just making sure. Alright.
70 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

MR. GARNER: Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Any other 

thoughts or comments, that we have right now about any of 

the information that Aaron so, expertly walked us 

through. Thank you for that. I have 11:40. We will, if we 

remember, we do have a member of the table that's not 

here. So we will come back for lunch. And look at some of 

the proposals, that we may receive. If you can get those 

over. Just remember word format, you know, highlight any 

proposed changes, etc. We'll get that out. If, Aaron, do 

you have anything at the Department? I think we can break 

a little early for lunch. And, Cindy?

MS. JEFFRIES: Yeah. I just want to 

double check. Aaron did, I mean, you did say that Vanessa 

has the capability of making changes, and making notes 

and things live, right? You know, a couple of things. You 

can- if you can come up with your suggestions or things 

that you'd like to see you could do just like what Aaron 

just did with I believe it was Wade's idea and put it in 

as a comment so that they can take a look at that. You 

can actually write a proposal that you send to them, 

however you choose to do it. We do have two hours yet 

this afternoon. I also want to say that if any of the 

committee members want a need- want or need a space to 

work together because it seems like, at least a couple of 
71 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

you have, you know, said yeah, I'm along those same 

lines. If you need a space so that you all can sit down 

and work on your thoughts together we can put you- give 

you a breakout room to do it. Just let us know what your 

needs are.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. Aaron and.

MR. WASHINGTON: You know what? Let 

D'Angelo go first. I'm sorry.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay. D'Angelo?

MR. SANDS: I was going to request a 

breakout room. I think that'll be a great idea for us to 

meet if my other members are comfortable with that, okay 

with that? So we can talk through- just so that we're not 

repeating the same pieces when we get back on the call 

and maybe help with efficiency there. If that's okay.

MS. K. SMITH: So would you like to go 

to that breakout room after the lunch break or did you 

want to do it now?

MR. WILLIAMS: I'm open to now if my 

colleagues are okay, they're open.

MS. K. SMITH: Okay, okay, we can do 

that. We can do that. Anything else? Cindy, just correct 

me if I'm wrong, we're still coming back at 1 p.m. 

eastern. Okay? We're still going to come back at 1 p.m. 

eastern. Officially. Back live. But for now, it's 11:42. 
72 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

If we don't- if there's nothing else, we will adjourn for 

your meal. I know it may not be lunch for others. And we 

will put you all in the waiting room. I mean, we'll put 

you all in a break room, so we will adjourn for a meal. 

Assemble back at 1 p.m. eastern. Thank you.

MR. WASHINGTON: Did you all want the 

Department in there? Just so, I don't. I mean, you don't 

have to. You don't have to have, you know, you can do it 

by, you know, I don't.

MS. K. SMITH: Right. Let us know who 

you'd like to put in there and we'll make them- we'll 

send them an invite if they.

MR. WASHINGTON: Maybe it's just a 

subcommittee thing. You know what I'm saying? Y'all, 

Y'all brainstorm. Okay? See, D'Angelo is like, no. He was 

like, I want to say it, but I was like, alright.

MS. JEFFRIES: Aaron, I think what I 

heard was that they want to kind of align their thoughts 

to better use of time so things aren't getting repeated 

and repetitive.

MR. WASHINGTON: Yep. Yeah okay. That 

sounds good. Perfect. Alright. Thank you.

MS. K. SMITH: Alright. So we'll end 

this part of the session, if it hasn't already.

 
73 Negotiated Rulemaking TRIO Subcommittee - 1/12/24

Zoom Chat Transcript

TRIO Subcommittee- Session 1, Day 5, Morning, January 12, 2024 

*Chat was copied as presented, as a result minor typos or grammatical 

errors may be present.

From Krystil Smith | FMCS Facilitator to Everyone:

Please send any proposals in Word format, with red-lined text for any 

regulatory language, and rationale to myself and Cindy Jeffries. We 

will ensure it is disseminated properly

From Cindy Jeffries - FMCS Facilitator to Everyone:

Replying to "Please send any prop..."

cjeffries@fmcs.gov

From Cindy Jeffries - FMCS Facilitator to Everyone:

Replying to "Please send any prop..."

ksmith@fmcs.gov

From Hannah Hodel, ED to Everyone:

Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act 

of 1996 (PRWORA)

From Wade Williams, TRIO Alum Rep. to Everyone:

I agree with Emalyn

From Geof Garner Secondary Schools to Everyone:

The submitted comments from The Council for Opportunity in 

Education addresses some of D’Angleo’s comments. Please see President 

Kimberly Jones’ comments from yesterday’s testimony for more 

information.

From Wade Williams, TRIO Alum Rep. to Everyone:

Reacted to "The submitted commen..." with ���