Public Hearings - 07/18/23 

1

 

 

 

 DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

 OFFICE OF POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION

 PUBLIC HEARINGS 

 SESSIONS 1 & 2, DAY 1 

MORNING AND AFTERNOON

July 18, 2023

On the 18th day of July, 2023, the following 

public hearing was held virtually, from 10:00 a.m. to

4:00 p.m. 
2

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

P R O C E E D I N G S

MS. ABERNATHY: Good morning. Welcome to the US 

Department of Education's virtual public hearing to 

discuss its proposed rulemaking agenda. My name is Tammy 

Abernathy and I'm the director of the Policy 

Coordination Group in the Office of Postsecondary 

Education. Greg Martin, also from the Office of 

Postsecondary Education, will facilitate during the 

first part of the afternoon session. I am joined this 

morning by Ben Miller from the Office of the Under 

Secretary and by Brian Segal from the Office of the 

General Counsel. Other Department representatives will 

be present this afternoon and we will introduce them at 

that time. We are pleased you have joined us and look 

forward to an informative day. At this time, I would 

like to introduce Under Secretary of Education James 

Kvaal, who has some opening remarks he wishes to share. 

Under Secretary Kvaal.

MR. KVAAL: Thanks so much, Tammy, and thanks, 

everyone, for joining us. Welcome to the Department of 

Education's public hearings on student debt relief. I 

appreciate everyone who is providing comments today, 

everyone who has already provided written comments or 

intends to provide written comments and to everyone 

watching. I want you all to know that President Biden, 
3

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Vice President Harris, Secretary Cardona and I are not 

going to stop fighting for student loan borrowers. We're 

committed to using every tool we have to provide 

borrowers with the necessary relief. And today, which is 

less than three weeks since President Biden announced 

actions opening up a new path to provide debt relief to 

as many borrowers as possible, we are already taking 

this important step forward, and we're committed to 

improving our regulations on the Secretary's authority 

under the Higher Education Act to compromise, waive or 

release Federal student loans. Our goal is to provide 

debt relief to borrowers, particularly those working and 

middle class borrowers who need it the most. And to 

recognize that far too many student loan borrowers have 

been left with debts that are unaffordable, unreasonable 

and unacceptable. We want to help borrowers who were let 

down by the fundamental bargain of Federal loans that 

investments in yourself and your education will help you 

get a better life. We want to help those who have seen 

their debts get out of hand, even as they make the 

payments that we ask. So our goal is to help as many 

borrowers as possible, and we will work as quickly as 

possible under the law. Congress has set procedural 

requirements to ensure that, among other things, we 

carefully consider public input. And that requires a 
4

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

number of months. We know this process can take time, 

and we know how important it is to borrowers and how 

urgently they need help. We'll move as fast as we can. 

We began this process on the very same day as the 

Supreme Court's decision, and we won't let any time 

waste going forward. This hearing and the regulatory 

process is just one part of President Biden's and our 

Department's larger plan to improve the student loan 

system and do everything we can to support student loan 

borrowers. Last month, we also finalized the SAVE Plan, 

which is the most affordable repayment plan ever. And 

when benefits start the summer, borrowers who make under 

about $33,000 a year, will not have to make loan 

payments, everyone else will save at least $1,000 a 

year, and we will be putting an end to runaway interest. 

We fixed broken programs like public service loan 

forgiveness, where the number of borrowers helped has 

gone from 7,000 to more than 650,000 in just two years. 

Just last week, we started notifying 800,000 more 

borrowers that they will receive $39 billion in 

forgiveness. As we fix long standing problems with the 

Income Driven Repayment Plan. Across all loan 

forgiveness programs, our Department, under President 

Biden's leadership, has identified more than 3.4 million 

borrowers who are eligible for relief and we're not 
5

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

going to stop. We will keep working to make sure that 

borrowers get the help they're entitled to. We're also 

providing borrowers with a 12-month on-ramp as 

repayments resume in September, and we're encouraging 

borrowers to make their payments as interest will 

continue to accrue and these payments will not count 

toward forgiveness. But for those who struggle and 

cannot pay, they will not have their loans negatively 

reported to credit bureaus or entered default. Finally, 

we're looking at the sources of these unaffordable debts 

and we'll be holding for-profit colleges and others 

accountable when they leave students with debts they 

can't afford to repay. Today's hearing is the first step 

toward further help for borrowers who badly need it. 

Thanks again to today's speakers. And in addition to 

oral comments that we'll hear today, you can also submit 

written comments through July 20th at regulations.gov. 

After the hearing and our review of comments we’ll 

publish a notice seeking nominations for negotiators and 

a schedule of negotiations. We hope many of you will 

consider serving in this capacity. We remain committed 

to the idea that a college credential is one of the best 

tools for building a stronger America but we can't bury 

the dreams unlocked by college under mountains of 

unaffordable debt. Through this process, we will work 
6

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

swiftly and tirelessly to make that relief a reality for 

borrowers. Thanks again for being a part of this process 

and I'll turn it back over to Tammy.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you, Under Secretary, Kvaal. 

On July 6th, we published a notice in the Federal 

Register announcing our intention to establish a 

negotiated rulemaking committee to prepare proposed 

regulations for the Federal Student Aid programs 

authorized under the Title IV of the Higher Education 

Act of 1965, as amended, also known as the HEA. 

Specifically, we requested input on the authorities 

granted to the Secretary in HEA section 432 A, which 

relates to the modification waiver or compromise of 

Federal student loans. As you've heard, in addition to 

hearing testimony today, we announced that the 

Department will accept written comments on this topic, 

as well as any suggestions for additional topics we 

should consider for action by a negotiating committee. 

You may submit a written comment using the 

www.regulations.gov website on or before July 20th, 

2023. For more background on the topic of today's 

hearing, please refer to that July 6th, 2023, Federal 

Register Notice, which also provides instructions on how 

to submit comments electronically. Today's hearing is 

divided into morning and afternoon sessions, which are 
7

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

scheduled from 10 a.m. to noon Eastern Time and from 1 

to 4 Eastern Time this afternoon. Let's go over the 

logistics for today's hearing. Speakers, I will call 

your name when it is your time to speak and do my very 

best to pronounce your name correctly. Please begin by 

providing your name and your affiliation. You will have 

four minutes. I will provide a 15 second warning and 

then inform you when the four minutes has ended. If you 

exceed your time, we may mute you. You may turn on your 

camera when presenting if you wish. We do ask, however, 

that you turn off the sound for the public meeting site 

because there is a few second delay on the public 

meeting and that the public may have difficulty hearing 

you. When you are speaking, you may not initially hear 

yourself, but after a few seconds you'll hear yourself 

on a delay. This hearing is being transcribed and we 

will post the transcription on our website within the 

next few weeks. We will also provide a recording of the 

hearing that will include audio and video. Closed 

captioning is also available in real time during the 

hearing. This is a public hearing, and it is possible 

that a member of the public may record your remarks and 

post edited clips of them before or after the Department 

posts the full unedited hearing. That concludes our 

introduction. Our first speaker is Mark Chenoweth. Mr. 
8

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Chenoweth?

MR. CHENOWETH: Can you hear me?

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes, sir. You have four minutes.

MR. CHENOWETH: Thank you. Good morning. My name is 

Mark Chenoweth and I'm the president of the New Civil 

Liberties Alliance, a nonpartisan, nonprofit civil 

rights group founded by prominent legal scholar Philip 

Hamburger to protect people's constitutional freedoms 

from the administrative state's depredations. I was also 

counsel of record on the amicus brief NCLA filed on the 

prevailing side in the Biden v Nebraska Supreme Court 

case. NCLA represents nonprofit employer clients in 

multiple lawsuits against the Department over its 

unlawful student loan debt cancellation proposals. These 

proposals injure our clients because they undermine the 

Public Service Loan Forgiveness program that Congress 

created. My comments today may be attributed to NCLA, 

but not to our clients. That said, PSLF employers that 

are negatively impacted by the regulations the 

Department intends to propose should be included in the 

negotiated rulemaking process as they are distinctly 

harmed and will have standing to sue over the 

regulations being propounded. The Department must stop 

legislating new programs in the executive branch, which 

is not the proper branch for lawmaking. The vesting 
9

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

clause of article one, section one of the Constitution 

states that all legislative powers herein granted shall 

be vested in a Congress of the United States. Article 

one, section nine of the Constitution, the 

Appropriations Clause ensures that Congress, not the 

Department of Education, will have control over Federal 

expenditures. It provides that no money shall be drawn 

from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations 

made by law. Just as the Department's attempt to use the 

Heroes Act to rewrite statutory provisions and cancel 

hundreds of billions owed to the Treasury, violated both 

the vesting and appropriations clauses, so too, any 

proposed negotiated rulemaking will do so if it cancels 

massive amount of debt owed to the Treasury without 

obtaining Congress approval. An HEA-based proposal could 

be even worse than the Heroes Act because it would not 

be limited to national emergencies, nor to making 

impacted individuals whole. The Supreme Court just told 

this Department that the major questions doctrine 

instructs it not to presume implicit statutory authority 

exists to sanction the creation of vast new programs 

based on vague or merely colorable language in old 

statutes. Yet here you go again. The Supreme Court will 

not permit agencies to discover elephants in mouse 

holes. Instead, there must be statutory clarity 
10

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

proportional to the scope of the power asserted. Finding 

blanket cancellation authority for student loan debt in 

the HEA as this negotiated rulemaking aims to do, will 

amount to pulling a wooly mammoth out of a statutory 

mouse hole never meant for such massive undertakings. A 

vote of Congress is required before such a program may 

be instituted, even if the Higher Education Act permits 

the Department to suspend the law on a case by case 

basis that does not authorize the Department to invent 

wholesale exemptions. Moreover, as Professor Hamburger 

has shown, the Constitution forbids any executive 

dispensing or suspending power, including any delegation 

of such power to the executive. Canceling debt that 

borrowers are legally obligated to repay amounts to 

executive forbidden executive dispensation. That is the 

power to act outside the law to relieve persons from a 

law that applies to them. English King's exercise of 

dispensing power ended with James II, who was removed 

from power for abusing it. And American colonists never 

tolerated such power in the executive, and the US 

Constitution forbids it. Indeed, the Constitution does 

not countenance such behavior for the exact reason why 

this Administration is abusing the power it would enable 

for giving application of the law of the law to the 

Administration's favored constituents. Such gratuitous 
11

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

conduct is simply not the prerogative of the executive. 

Allowing such behavior would also enable a complete end 

run of the bicameralism and presentment requirements 

under the Constitution for passing laws. The Department 

should consult the Clinton v City of New York Line Item 

Veto Supreme Court case from 1998, which helps explain 

the constitutional limits. In sum, the Department may 

only cancel debt under specific provisions of HEA where 

Congress pre specifies the reason for cancellation and 

who qualifies. Congress has enacted numerous loan 

forgiveness programs using specific language since 1965. 

Those specific provisions would be rendered surplusage 

if general HEA language of section 432 A is read to 

permit the Secretary to cancel loans on a blanket basis. 

Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. John 

Smith.

MR. SMITH: Good morning. My name is John Smith and 

represent the student loan borrowers with ballooning 

balances. I borrowed $65,000 for my studies around 15 to 

20 years ago. That debt is now around $99,000. There are 

many borrowers in a similar situation. In fact, one of 

my friends had over a quarter of a million dollars 

fortunately, it was forgiven as a teacher just this 

year. Over the past 20 years, I've been subject to job 
12

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

loss for various reasons, including the great recession 

and COVID. Additionally, when I get back into the 

workforce, I've had to start sometimes over. Dealing 

with long periods of unemployment and longer periods of 

low pay has made paying my student loans over this 

period difficult, if not impossible. The Department is 

well aware of the issues that the servicers, which have 

exacerbated these situations by pushing borrowers 

towards forbearance, deferment and graduated repayment 

plans instead of Income Driven Repayment. Servicers 

acted in their own self-interest to the detriment of the 

borrower. There have been many times where this debt has 

felt like an albatross around my neck combined with the 

sense of indentured servitude. This debt has placed an 

exacerbating toll on my mental health. First, I'd like 

to thank the staff and leadership at the White House and 

Department of Education for all of the changes and 

improvements already in place. Through the SAVE plan, I 

will be able to afford my payments and not have to worry 

about future capitalized interest. I wouldn't say that 

I'm excited to begin repayment, but I am not dreading 

it. More action is necessary to ensure my fellow 

borrowers are able to be in a position where they can 

survive, but where they can prosper. Home ownership, 

starting a small business, starting a family, much of 
13

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

which has been out of reach for many who have been 

overburdened by student loans. Providing a path to 

prosperity for this large group of middle class working 

adults not only greatly benefits them directly, but also 

trickles down to others as well benefiting the economy 

as a whole. Second, I'd like to overcome some of the 

common objections. Some might say that forgiving student 

loans is not fair to others that never attended. Well, 

not every program is designed to benefit everybody, and 

that's okay. Reduce tax rates on capital gains greatly 

benefit the wealthy. Conversely, the earned income tax 

greatly benefits the working poor. Both are great 

programs that have virtually no direct benefit to the 

middle class. Others mentioned that if you signed up for 

a debt, you should pay your obligation. There are many 

times when you don't get what you pay for that you're no 

longer obligated to pay for goods or services. Even one 

of our recent Republican presidents agrees with this. 

Lastly, I'm asking the Department and the rule makers 

for the following. Cancel past capitalized interest. 

Cancel debt incurred for from for-profit institutions 

involved in the sweet settlement regardless of a 

borrower defense application. I'm asking for automatic 

IDR recertification. Broad based forgiveness, if 

possible, within the current budget. These actions will 
14

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

help redress those borrowers that have been most harmed. 

Additionally, I call on Congress to implement the 

following through budget reconciliation. Permanent 

exemption to taxes on forgiven student loans or any 

other Federal obligation. Lower interest rates on 

student loans. I call on them to implement broad student 

loan forgiveness and to implement a plan to ensure this 

doesn't happen again, which could include free community 

college, automatic transfer of forces from community 

colleges to four year state schools and accountability 

for schools. Lastly, increase the minimum wage. I 

believe that if we work together, we can find 

resolutions which will bring prosperity to our whole 

nation.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. The 

next speaker is Lujain Al-Khawi.

MS. KHAWI: Hello everyone. My name is Lujain AlKhawi and I'm an engineer in the medical devices 

industry. Today I would like to speak about the formerly 

proposed $20,000 student loan forgiveness plan for Pell 

Grant awardees that was recently rejected by the Supreme 

Court. I'm going to discuss the repercussions of this 

decision personally and within my community. When my 

mother immigrated to this country to pursue her 

doctorate degree in 2005, she came as a single mother on 
15

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

a student visa. Fast forward almost 18 years. She is now 

a professor at a community college. But it was not easy 

sailing for my mother, who had already achieved two 

master's degrees but needed her doctorate to become a 

professor. Unfortunately, the small merit based 

scholarships she received as a doctorate student was not 

enough to support a family of two. Therefore, she 

obtained a work visa so that she can work full time and 

pursue her doctorate degree now part time. Few people 

can claim that they are self-made. But my mother was 

truly self-made in that she never received money from 

any man, Government or charity. She worked and studied 

and continues to do both today. When it was my turn to 

go to college in 2015, I wanted to go to the best 

biomedical engineering program in this country, and I 

did. I received a presidential scholarship because I 

graduated top of my class and tested it in the 99th 

percentile at my ACTs. But I still had to take over 

$20,000 in student loans despite getting a 75% merit 

based scholarship. But history repeated itself. I had to 

work 30 hours a week during college while taking 16 to 

18 credits each semester, studying very difficult 

courses such as electrical engineering, math and 

chemistry. The only time I had to study was during my 

2.5 hour metro rides from my university to my workplace 
16

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

and home each day. Having graduated from college in 

2019, I still have approximately $6,000 in student 

loans, even though I was one of the lucky ones who 

received the Pell Grant because my mom's doctorate 

salary was not enough back in 2015. Reflecting back on 

this experience, my mom and I developed a strong work 

ethic, but no one should have to work full time just to 

attend higher education. No one has to work this hard, 

even when there are others who do not even have to work 

or even pay for their own schools because they benefited 

from multigenerational trust funds. We need to have 

equity in the higher education playing field. Because 

you are talented, a smart worker but are lacking in 

funds, you should not have to sacrifice going to the 

best schools in the country to become an engineer or a 

doctor. We need student loan forgiveness, especially for 

students of immigrant populations who have no choice but 

to be self-made. This is a small help for them, 

especially if they're not fortunate to get financial 

support from their families. We need reasonable student 

loan plans in this country. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Mike 

Pierce.

MR. PIERCE: Thank you for the opportunity to be 

here today. My name is Mike Pierce, and I am the 
17

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

executive director of the Student Borrower Protection 

Center. We look forward to participating in the 

negotiated rulemaking process and appreciate the Biden 

Administration's willingness to deliver debt relief in 

the face of last month's unjust ruling by the Supreme 

Court. Simply put, we're here today to urge the 

Department to keep its promises to student loan 

borrowers. The Biden Administration has made great 

strides in its effort to fix the badly broken student 

loan system, overhauling public service, loan 

forgiveness and Income Driven Repayment, automating 

total and permanent disability discharges, ramping up 

debt relief when schools closed and reviving the path to 

discharge debt when borrowers have a defense to 

repayment. At least 3 million people have been promised 

student debt relief by this Administration, and millions 

more can access this debt relief if they take action. As 

you know, these new rights to student debt cancellation 

sit outside of the scope of the Supreme Court's decision 

last month. This is good. The end of the COVID era 

payment pause will result in bills being sent to 

millions of borrowers who have these new rights to 

cancel their debts completely. Demanding payment from 

borrowers who have a right to be debt free is bad. The 

rush to resume repayment has the potential to be a 
18

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

catastrophic unforced error, overshadowing the legacy 

this Administration has built as champions for working 

people with student debt. Millions of public service 

workers, borrowers with older debts and former forprofit college students should be debt free. But for the 

administrative burdens and processing delays by the 

private sector, student loan companies hired by the 

Department to administer these programs. The Department,

in advance of any new rulemaking and in advance of the 

planned return to repayment, must hold these millions of 

borrowers harmless as their debt relief is processed. 

President Biden must keep his promises. Over and above 

the millions of borrowers covered by these existing 

programs. Tens of millions of working people were 

promised student debt relief in August of 2022, only to 

have this promised relief stripped away by the right 

wing Supreme Court. We applaud this Administration for 

swiftly committing to use the Higher Education Act to 

deliver debt relief and keep promises made to these 

borrowers. Today, we urge the Department to include in 

the upcoming rulemaking all of the authorities granted 

to it under the AGA to discharge and cancel Federal 

student loan debt. To convene a group of negotiators 

that reflect the diversity of student loan borrowers and 

to proceed with a timeline that meets the urgency of 
19

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

this moment. First, the state of the student loan system 

is critical context for this rulemaking. The student 

loan system has become a debt trap. For every two 

borrowers who pay off a loan in 12 years, three more are 

even deeper in debt than when they first started. The 

student loan system continues to fuel racial and 

economic disparities, where the typical white family has 

more than four times the assets of Black and brown 

families. Same income. Black and brown students are 

forced to take on more debt to get the same education. 

For every Black borrower who repays a student loan in 12 

years, 6 are even deeper in debt. The typical Black 

borrower is caught in this debt trap today. Any debt 

relief plan must at minimum, keep President Biden's 

promise to borrowers canceling up to $10,000 per 

eligible borrower and up to $20,000 for those who have 

received a Pell Grant. The Department should route debt 

relief in the full range of tools available to the 

Secretary. Although the Federal Register notice 

announcing this rulemaking cited authorities under HEA 

Section 432 A, generally, it only specifically 

referenced modification, waiver and compromise 

authority. the Department should make clear that in this 

rulemaking it plans to leverage all of the Secretary's 

enumerated authorities, including the authority to 
20

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

release any right title, claim, lien or demand. Congress 

also conferred on the Secretary another set of powers 

under the Federal Claims Collections Act, which provides 

the authority to heads of all executive agencies to 

compromise debts owed to them. Similarly, Federal claims 

collection standards provide an independent basis from 

the AGA for President Biden to deliver debt relief to 

borrowers. Finally, the Department must ensure that a 

diverse set of constituencies are represented by 

negotiators during the rulemaking. Older borrowers, 

parent borrowers, defaulted borrowers, current students 

or recent graduates, low balance borrowers, high balance 

borrowers each have unique perspectives which need to be 

included in this process. Again, thank you for the 

opportunity to present today. SBPC is looking forward to 

engaging with this rulemaking and we will provide more 

detailed comments in the record.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you so much. Our next speaker 

is Karen Harned.

MS. HARNED: Hello. My name is Karen Harned, and 

I'm here on behalf of the Job Creators Network. We are a 

nonpartisan organization founded by entrepreneurs who 

believe that many Government policies are getting in the 

way of the economic freedoms that all Americans have 

helped make all Americans prosperous. JCN, Job Creators 
21

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Network, has been on the forefront of the student loan 

forgiveness issue. We were the ones that helped support 

the private plaintiffs who filed the lawsuit that was 

recently concluded with the Biden versus Nebraska 

decision in which the Supreme Court said that the 

Department does not have the authority under the major 

questions doctrine to give broad student loan 

forgiveness. Job Creators Network has been clear all 

along. We agree there is a student loan crisis in this 

country. We agree with the Department and the remarks 

that were made at the top of this meeting by the Deputy 

Secretary that the colleges and universities are 

accountable for these issues and the debt crisis we have 

today. The bottom line is we've got colleges and 

universities across this country sitting on $700 billion 

of endowments. Tuition rates have been rising at record 

levels above any other products or goods or services 

that Americans have been experiencing over the last 10, 

15, even 20 years. The inflation for college tuition is 

unmatched and unsustainable and we believe unfair. So,

we are very again, I am very encouraged to hear that the 

Department does want to hold these universities 

accountable. We believe that is a positive first step in 

solving this crisis. We do not believe that providing 

blanket forgiveness or really any forgiveness except in 
22

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

some extreme outliers situations is warranted. Why do we 

believe this? We believe this because then we're going 

to be back here in 5, 10, 15 years doing this once 

again. This is not going to solve the problem. This is 

nothing more. Student forgiveness is nothing more than a 

Band-Aid. Moreover, in light of Biden versus United 

Nebraska, it's illegal. And even what the Department is 

proposing today, we think, falls outside of the 

Department's statutory authority under the Higher 

Education Act. We believe that only Congress can 

authorize through its, you know, taxing and spending 

power, the ability to forgive student loans. But that is 

not something that the Department, as Mr. Chenoweth 

noted earlier, can, you know, look through its books, in 

this case Higher Education Act, and shoehorn in a 

forgiveness policy. This needs to be directly authorized 

by Congress and Congress has yet to do this, right? They 

have had many opportunities to and they have not taken 

the bait. They have not decided to do this. That is why, 

as I close my remarks, I would just like to say and 

encourage the Department rather than go through this 

rulemaking, which is going to result- likely will result 

in more forgiveness that we think is illegal and once 

again will be challenged in the courts. We encourage the 

Department, the Administration, to work with Congress on 
23

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

real solutions that deal with transparency of loans, 

deal with degrees that are offered, that are never going 

to repay students at the level that they think. Thank 

you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Katie 

Krumpter. Four minutes. Katie Krumpter.

MS. KRUMPTER: Yes, Hi. My name is Katie Krumpter. 

I'm a senior financial counselor from New York Legal 

Assistance Group. I speak from New York Legal Assistance 

Group, NYLAG, a nonprofit provider of free legal 

services in New York City. NYLAG's attorneys, 

paralegals, and financial counselors assist hundreds of 

low income Federal student loan borrowers each year. We 

strongly support the Department's proposal to convene a 

negotiated rulemaking regarding its settlement and 

compromise authority in order to promulgate regulations 

on loan cancellation. Millions of borrowers face 

crushing student debt burden that affects their everyday 

lives. This includes 1 in 6 New York City residents, 

more than half of whom owe over $20,000 in student 

loans. But this debt burden is not equally distributed. 

It falls disproportionately on low income communities 

and communities of color. Black New Yorkers owe student 

loan debt at a rate more than twice that of white New 

Yorkers, likely because nationally, 86% of Black 
24

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

students take out student loan debt versus 68% of white 

students. And the average amount is higher too, 

approximately $40,000 versus 30. After college, white 

graduates are more likely to receive wealth transfers 

from their family, whereas Black households are more 

likely to transfer their post-college income to support 

their family. As a result, nearly three quarters of 

Black borrowers student loans have a higher balance 

today than they started with. Further, relative to 

income, student debt is highest for individuals with the 

lowest incomes, who have debt increasing at the fastest 

rates. Half of New York City borrowers who received 

Pell Grants are either in default or unable to repay 

even $1 towards the principal of their loan, seven years 

after entering repayment. Even $10,000 of debt 

cancellation would completely wipe out the debt of 

almost one-third of New York City borrowers and over 40% 

of delinquent and defaulted borrowers in neighborhoods 

with the lowest average incomes. Sorry. At NYLAG, we see 

the patterns play out again and again with the hundreds 

of student loan borrowers seeking our help, including 

many who are people of color, many who attended 

predatory schools that offered little value and many who 

lack income to make their loan payments. The Department 

must center the experience of these affected borrowers. 
25

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

First, borrowers seek our help with decades-old loans 

with no end of repayment in sight. Many of these 

borrowers who are struggling the most are those that 

have experienced periods of default and thus will not 

benefit from programs like the IDR account adjustment. 

In our experience, the Department and guaranty agencies 

rarely have adequate recordkeeping to document the 

payment history of these old loans, including the 

coercive collection mechanisms. We urge the Department 

to prioritize using its settlement and compromise 

authority in circumstances where there is anything less 

than full documentation of payment history. For example, 

one NYLAG client borrowed Federal loans in the mid 80s. 

As her family grew, she did her best but fell behind 

several times and eventually defaulted. In the decades 

that followed, she had tax refunds offset several times, 

equaling an amount that would have satisfied the 

original balance. Due to fees, penalties and interest, 

the debt lingers. Currently, her student loan debt 

stands at more than $68,000. Even though she has made 

payments over the course of nearly 40 years, because of 

the period of periods of default, she will not benefit 

from the IDR account adjustment and will continue to 

carry this debt for years. Second, any settlement and 

compromise rule should include low income borrowers who 
26

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

obtain Parent PLUS Loans on their children's behalf. It 

should also include loans obtained to attend grad 

school. Many women and borrowers of color need to obtain 

graduate degrees simply to reach the same earnings as 

their peers. Third, we urge the Department to use its 

[inaudible] authority to eliminate the entire loan 

balance for many borrowers, especially those with low 

balances that have the oldest loans. Finally, we urge 

the Department to include this rulemaking as a permanent 

method of invoking settlement and compromise authority 

that allows- thank you very much.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Jennifer Cardenas.

MS. CARDENAS: Yes. Hello.

MS. KRUMPTER: Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: You have four minutes.

MS. CARDENAS: Thank you. So, hello, everyone. Good 

morning. My name is Jennifer Cardenas. I am a student 

loan borrower. My pronouns are she. Every time we talk 

about students, I realize that we're seen as a number, 

we say millions of students. We say people that have 

loans. But we also have like our individual story how we 

impact our communities and why it's important for us to 

have our loans forgiven. A lot of us come from low 

income communities. A lot of us come from places that we 
27

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

know are impacted. When we go to school, we already know 

the trajectory. I live in a place called Fontana, 

California. It is in the Inland Empire, which is just 

warehouses, rails. It's a place for distribution. For 

me, growing up, all I thought I could achieve was 

working at a warehouse. Education wasn't something that 

for us, we saw as a future, as a way of economic 

mobility. But the thing is that we're so impacted by bad 

air quality, that a lot of us seek higher education. We 

seek higher education because we see our neighbors. Our 

friends, our nieces and nephews with asthma. And you're 

probably wondering, why are you going into environment, 

right? That's because education gave me the platform to 

understand how we are impacted. It's not just, you know, 

it's difficult to breathe, it's these are the reasons 

that it's difficult to breathe. Now, with education, I 

have- I'm able to go back to my community. I'm able to 

be someone in my community that can advocate for them. 

It's not just all of us having to deal with not knowing 

the reasons were being impacted, not knowing how our 

Government runs. Not knowing why we're being bombarded 

with all these warehouses. My education has provided me 

the steppingstones to be able to advocate for my 

community, to be able to tell them, hey, this is what we 

can do, this is how we can push back. And the thing is, 
28

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

I'm not the only one. I'm not like the only person of 

color in my community that has seeked higher education 

in order for economic mobility, but also in a way that 

we can advocate for our communities. So, this 

forgiveness on our loans would help us actually have 

economic mobility in those cities that we serve, in the 

cities that we went back to work at. In a way to just 

advocate not just for ourselves, but continue to 

advocate for the communities that impact us, our 

neighbors. The thing is like, a lot of people in my 

position, we were stuck. I didn't go to school until 

later. I am a nontraditional first generation student. 

Like many of my Black indigenous people of color, low 

income, we saw these loans as a way to not just serve 

ourselves and have an academic status, but in a way to 

really be able to just be competitive in the fields that 

tell us you don't know enough about your community, you 

don't know why you need to do this. Our representatives 

treat us as we're not educated, and once we get that 

education, we finally have that platform to push back. 

And the thing is, again, I'm not the only student. 

There's millions of us that do this work. But we also 

have to live paycheck to paycheck. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Sabrina. Sabrina Calazans.
29

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MS. CALAZANS: Thank you for having me today. My 

name is Sabrina Calazans and I'm a student loan 

borrower. I support student debt cancellation because it 

will help millions of families like mine by providing 

life changing relief. We need student debt cancellation,

and we need it quickly. And we need to make sure that 

borrower voices like mine are being heard and uplifted 

in the discussions around student debt cancellation and 

how important it is for families nationwide. I'm a first 

generation college graduate and first generation 

American. After graduating from college, I struggled to 

find a job. I worked a few temp jobs to make ends meet, 

and when I got my first student loan bill, I still could 

not afford it and went into forbearance shortly after 

the pandemic began and Federal student loan payments 

were paused. Not having to make those monthly payments 

has been a lifeline for me and my family. Not only for 

my student loan payments paused, but so were my dad's, 

who had Parent PLUS Loans to put me through school. The 

payment pause has allowed my family to stay afloat for 

the past few years while living paycheck to paycheck and 

while it may seem like the pandemic is over, the reality 

is that there are still millions of families like mine 

that are feeling extreme financial pressures and that 

continue to live paycheck to paycheck while payments are 
30

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

still on pause. And so, student loan payments could be 

the tipping point for many American families. Resuming 

monthly payments without cancellation will certainly 

harm millions of families, but especially communities of 

color and working class families. I urge the Biden 

Administration and the Department of Education to use 

the Higher Education Act to provide student debt relief 

to as many people as possible and as soon as possible. 

We cannot afford to wait any longer. When student loan 

payments resume, financial strains will become even 

tougher for me and for so many others. Canceling at 

least up to $20,000 of student debt per borrower is 

essential for so many of our futures. It means my dad 

and my sister's student debt would be fully canceled and 

a majority of my debt would be canceled, while 

significantly lowering my monthly payments on what is 

left. Student debt cancellation is necessary and legal, 

and it will be life changing and it is something that 

needs to be done. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Peter 

Granville.

MR. GRANVILLE: Good morning. My name is Peter 

Granville. I'm a fellow at the Century Foundation. My 

colleagues and I support the Department's decision to 

initiate negotiated rulemaking on student debt 
31

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

cancellation and urge the Department to include all 

forms of direct loans, including Parent and Graduate 

PLUS Loans in cancellation. The Parent PLUS program was 

introduced in the 1980s to assist middle class families 

lacking the capital to cover their children's upfront 

college costs. The Parent PLUS program has been 

increasingly utilized by large numbers of low income 

parents without the means to repay their loans. Many 

repay Parent PLUS long into retirement and may see their 

Social Security income garnished if they default on 

their loan. Debt cancellation would offer considerable 

relief to Black Parent PLUS borrowers who often borrow 

in excess of the average Black family's wealth and 

languish in repayment for decades. Parent borrowers have 

more at stake in debt cancellation than many other 

groups of borrowers. Parent plus borrowers are 

categorically excluded from the recently announced 

Income Driven Repayment Plan or save, continuing a longstanding trend. Parent PLUS borrowers cannot access the 

most generous repayment options, putting low resourced 

parent borrowers in a financial bind. Cancellation 

presents the most viable pathway to relief for Parent 

PLUS borrowers, making their inclusion a worthy priority 

for the Department and negotiators. Under the 

Department's plan for cancellation announced August 
32

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

2022, Parent PLUS borrowers could only qualify for 

maximum relief if the parent borrower themselves was a 

Pell Grant recipient. We urge the Department to extend 

maximum relief to Parent PLUS loan borrowers who are 

borrowing to finance the education of a Pell Grant 

recipient. This would ensure that the most economically 

vulnerable borrowers are eligible for the most relief. 

We also urge the Department to include Grad PLUS debt in 

the Department's debt cancellation plan. Black graduate 

students in research doctorates are the least likely to 

receive teaching assistantships and fellowships. That 

means that their outstanding tuition fee balances are 

not financed by institutions of higher education but off 

their own backs. Black women in particular are more 

likely to finance their education through a number of 

sources, including part time or full time employment, 

credit cards, and student loans. Given the positive 

correlation between undergraduate borrowing and 

borrowing for graduate education, it's not surprising 

Black students would face a disparate debt burden as 

they pursue advanced education. While Graduate PLUS 

borrowers are eligible for some savings under the new 

repayment plan, their savings pale in comparison to 

those with only undergraduate debt. Borrowers who have 

more debt from graduate school than undergraduate will 
33

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

pay close to 10% of their discretionary income, in 

contrast to borrowers with only undergraduate debt who 

will pay only 5%. We urge the Administration to act 

swiftly in establishing the rulemaking and appointment 

of committee members. Negotiators should be 

representatives of the populations most impacted by our 

student debt crisis. Not only should student borrowers 

be seated at the table, but the committee should include 

borrowers of varied experiences, including those with 

Parent and Grad PLUS loan debt. Likewise, given the 

disparate impact of student loans on communities of 

color, several seats should be reserved for civil 

rights, student advocacy, and racial justice 

organizations. Thank you very much.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Panayotis Giannakouros. You have four minutes.

MR. GIANNAKOUROS: Thank you so much. I am 

Panayotis Giannakouros with the research with the Global 

Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. And I'm also here 

representing Virginia Progressives. The Global Institute 

for Sustainable Prosperity is an independent public 

policy think tank dedicated to the promotion of 

interdisciplinary research and service of improved 

quality of life for all members of society. We believe 

that providing decent employment opportunities for 
34

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

everyone ready, willing, and able to work at a socially 

established living wage is an institutional prerequisite 

for social justice and sustainable prosperity. 

Sustainable prosperity is conceived holistically to 

encompass the physical, mental, environmental, 

financial, educational and civic well being of all 

individuals, families, neighborhoods and regions 

throughout the world. I'm also representing Virginia 

progressives. Virginia Progressives is a group that 

emerged out of the 2020 Virginia Democratic Convention, 

where Virginia progressives trained scores of delegates 

in modern monetary theory to organize parallel events to 

the convention among 2000 delegates from across Virginia 

to pass the most progressive resolution package of any 

state, including a resolution to cancel all student debt 

and make college tuition free. A common core in Virginia 

Progressives' understanding of how our monetary economy 

works is modern monetary theory, a key insight of which 

can be summed up in an analogy. Money is an IOU, like a 

pizza coupon. Pizza coupon in the hands of a customer is 

an IOU of the pizza shop. But an asset to the customer. 

When the IOU is redeemed, it is burned. IOUs in the 

shelf of the counter of the pizza shop are just scraps 

of paper. The national currency is similar to an IOU, 

this time good for cancellation of tax liabilities or 
35

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

student debt liabilities. Our student debt payments go 

on to the shelf of the Federal agencies behind the pizza 

counter, and for all practical purposes, they may 

internally be arranged as pieces of paper on the shelf. 

But for all practical purposes, they are, may as well be 

burned. The Federal Government neither needs our money, 

nor does it have our money. It spends our money into 

existence. This is contrary to the core Republican 

argument put forward, for example, by delegate Good of 

my Virginia District 5. With that in mind, regarding the 

specific rulemaking today, I would like to advocate for 

one group that is in a gap. This group is academic 

couples. Academic couples face some of the harshest 

consequences of student debt, which is effectively a 

punishment for having sought a higher education. 

Academic couples who have no children, as President 

Biden pointed out, who will generally find that have 

extreme difficulty finding two full time positions, socalled two body problem are largely missed by the plans 

that have been put forward so far. As such a couple ages 

into their 50s the prospects for the non full time 

spouse become increasingly dim. As an adjunct for that 

many years, a person looks at a horizon of never working 

again after a lifetime of minimum effective minimum wage 

work. We can address this group by doing two things. 
36

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

One, raise the poverty limit, the exclusion, to 400% 

instead of 2.25%, and count- in school deferment after 

the disbursement of the loans, count in school 

deferment. Thank you so much for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Christopher Laureano.

MR. LAUREANO: Thank you all for the opportunity to 

speak to all of you today. My name is Christopher 

Laureano and I'm coming to you all, also as a student 

loan borrower. I would like to bring up a few points 

regarding my support of the usage of section 432 A of 

the Higher Education Act for canceling Federal Student 

Loan debt. I would like to start by talking about my 

former perceptions of going to college, how those 

perceptions led me to making uneducated decisions that 

led me to place my future plans on hold due to student 

loan debt, and the growing resentment that I have 

towards the student loan system at large. Growing up, I 

have always dreamed of going to college to become a 

music teacher at a public school system. Because I 

wasn't skilled in any of the trade skills, trading 

school was not an option for me, and I also wasn't aware 

of alternative certificate programs being an option that 

would be less costly. I was also a first generation 

undergraduate student coming from a family of Portuguese 
37

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

immigrants. Although my parents tried to help me have a 

savings net for college during my upbringing, when I 

turned 18 in 2008 during the Great Recession, I was told 

by my father, I'm sorry but you're on your own. In high 

school, like any other millennial, the messaging that 

was told to me by high school teachers, guidance 

counselors, and quite frankly, the Federal Government at 

large through media was if you go to college and get an 

education, you will make it. However, we must remind 

ourselves that a lot of the trades during the 2000s 

moved overseas so that we had to get to the point that 

college was the only option and other alternative 

options were treated as obsolete. During my time in 

college, I initially majored in music education and 

after trying really hard to pass practicum classes by a 

professor who did not have my best interest at heart, I 

was eventually kicked out of the music education program 

through no fault of my own and I was forced to switch to 

a BA in music and I nearly quit college afterwards. 

However, what kept me from quitting partially was the 

fact that I was on my sixth year of college with student 

loan debt that kept accruing interest and was 

compounding to a level that I did not expect. I had no 

understanding about student loans at all or how they 

work. I just knew that I needed to borrow money to go to 
38

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

college and that I would do everything I could to get my 

degree. Although I eventually got my bachelor's degree 

in 2015, it wasn't in the field that I hoped and that 

due to lack of financial education and not having 

adequate support from certain college professors, I was 

on my own with my dreams completely crushed. I'm now 

working in the human services sector, thanks to 

additional networks that I built, taking part in a 

leadership society unrelated to my college major, 

despite not being able to make enough money to live on 

my own to this day. However, had I not sought this 

escape, I would have continued to feel sorry for myself 

and who knows if I'd be speaking to all of you today. 

Because of my personal experiences with college and 

student loan debt and because so many people can relate 

to having financial struggles after college, what I'm 

proposing are two things. First, the usage of section 

432 A should be used to cancel all Federal student Loan 

debt immediately on the date of the enactment of the 

Higher Education Act. Then, simultaneously with this 

effort, an addendum to this section should include a 

regulation to mandate a financial literacy curriculum 

for all public, middle, and high schools across the 

country that teaches everything about student loans and 

how they work. This addendum should also include all 
39

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

information about alternative options such as trade 

schools and certificate programs and the pros and cons 

of these options. This way, those students who are 

thinking about getting further education can feel they 

are walking to all options fully informed and can then 

make an informed decision about which route they would 

like to take next. And I would be more than happy to be 

part of the negotiated rulemaking committee to work with 

you [inaudible] all to make this happen. Thank you again 

for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. I just 

would like to remind everybody that we will accept 

written comments on this topic, as well as any 

suggestions for additional topics that we should 

consider for action by our negotiating committee. Please 

submit a written comment using the www.regulations.gov 

website on or before July 20th, 2023. Thank you so much. 

We're going to take a quick break. Hello, everyone. 

India Heckstall, you're our next speaker, and you have 

four minutes.

MS. HECKSTALL: Hi. Thank you to the Department for 

the opportunity to comment on student debt relief. My 

name is India Heckstall and I'm a senior policy analyst 

at the Center for Law and Social Policy. CLASP is a 

national, nonpartisan, anti-poverty nonprofit that 
40

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

advances policy solutions that disrupt systemic racism 

and sexism and remove barriers blocking people from 

economic security and opportunity. CLASP recognizes the 

significance of ensuring equitable access, affordability 

and completion of post-secondary education. However, 

disparities within our post-secondary education system 

still exist. High college costs and limited financial 

resources disproportionately affect Black families, 

leading them to rely more on Federal Financial Aid, 

particularly Federal student loans. We would like to 

express our appreciation to the Administration for 

taking prompt action to provide student loan debt relief 

to borrowers and respond to the recent US Supreme Court 

decision. However, we believe the Department can take 

additional measures to better serve Black, Latinx, 

indigenous students, immigrants, youth and individuals 

impacted by the criminal legal system. First, the 

Department should proceed with student debt cancellation 

using the Secretary's authority under the Higher 

Education Act, which would advance the Administration's 

racial equity goals and provide critical relief to 

student borrowers and their families. The Administration 

should consider increasing the debt cancellation amount 

to $50,000 for the most significant impact. Canceling 

$50,000 in student loan debt will result in full 
41

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

cancellation for 76% of student loan borrowers. 

Additionally, it would substantially reduce the share of 

all Black adults with student loan debt from 24% to 6%, 

significantly narrow the gap in student loan debt 

between Black and white individuals and increase the 

wealth of Black Americans by 40%. Particularly for Black 

borrowers, student loan debt is an intergenerational 

crisis. Black parents are more likely to take on student 

loan debt to support their child's college education and 

often face challenges in repayment. Therefore, Parent 

PLUS Loans must also be included in student debt relief 

to bolster Black families economic security. Second, the 

Department must stop allowing predatory schools to 

continue to receive Title IV Aid. For decades, predatory 

for-profit schools have targeted Black and Latinx 

students, immigrants, first generation students, women, 

adult learners, and students with low incomes. 

Unfortunately, students investment in for-profit 

colleges often fails to pay off. Students who have 

attended for-profit institutions often experience lower 

graduation rates, worse labor market outcomes, and are 

more likely to default. The Higher Education Act 

contains protections to prevent poorly performing and 

predatory schools but continue to receive Federal Aid 

and to discharge student debt resulting from 
42

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

institutional misconduct. The Department must build a 

robust enforcement union and reinstate the employmentgainful employment rule. And finally, the Department 

must stop the seizure of tax credits and public benefits 

for borrowers in student loan default. The majority of 

those who default on student loans are individuals who 

face persistent economic and social challenges. 

Defaulting on Federal Student Loans has severe 

consequences as borrowers' loan balances become 

immediately due, and they are also at risk of wage 

garnishment, seizure of Social Security payments and 

tax refunds, additional fees, and damage to their credit 

scores. Through the garnishment of wages and seizure of 

public benefits, millions of families face the risk of 

losing vital financial lifelines that help reduce 

poverty. Borrowers also face other penalties that can 

impede their education employment journey, such as 

restricted access to further financial aid, withholding 

student's academic transcripts, and suspension of 

professional and driver's license. By undermining an 

individual's ability to cover basic expenses, return to 

school, maintain employment or even drive a car, the 

student loan default system creates additional obstacles 

for those who are already struggling to achieve economic 

security. Addressing the college affordability crisis is 
43

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

crucial in advancing equity and promoting economic 

mobility. Mere access to post-tenure education is 

insufficient, and we must alleviate the financial burden 

faced by students pursuing post-secondary education and 

invest in resources that support theirMS. ABERNATHY: 15 seconds.

MS. HECKSTALL: We thank the Department for the 

opportunity to share comments on the Federal Financial 

Aid system.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Representative Frost from the 10th District of Florida 

is our next speaker. Representative Frost, you have four

minutes.

MR. FROST: Yes. Well, well thank you so much. I'm 

Congressman Maxwell Frost, proudly representing 

Florida's 10th Congressional District in the United 

States Congress. And first off, just want to thank you 

for using the authority under the Higher Education Act 

to enact new student debt relief. This is a very 

important program that so many of my constituents are 

number one excited about, but also are excited for the 

relief that they are going to get. And my hope is that 

we will continue to fight to ensure that this is 

possible for all Americans that are eligible. The Scotus 

ruling only related that the- only relayed that the 
44

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Administration's ability to enact debt relief under the 

Heroes Act was not correct under the certain amount but

do believe that we should continue to pursue this very 

important policy and initiative to ensure that folks 

have the relief that they deserve. And I think acting 

quickly is an important part of this. More than 40 

million borrowers and their families were promised this 

relief only for this to, you know, be taken away from 

them by Scotus. And I think it's great and also 

incumbent upon this Administration to continue pushing 

forward with this promise and I know that we will. We 

can't respond to this injustice with administrative 

hurdles and Government bureaucracies. We have to act as 

swiftly as possible to make sure that this relief is 

enacted. And what I know to be true is through this 

process that we're going through right now, we'll be 

able to strengthen the legal argument, because we do 

realize that this might be challenged again by the 

opposition. But definitely want to encourage you all in 

the Administration to continue with this program as 

advertised, because I do believe that this is about 

racial justice. It is about economic justice. And at the 

end of the day, this is an issue that oftentimes is 

promoted as something that only impacts young people. 

And as you all know, that couldn't be further from the 
45

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

truth. This is something that is about young folks, 

older folks, and people across the country. And actually 

over the last month, we have a year-round organizing 

program at our office where we knock doors every single 

week. We haven't stopped knocking on doors since 

Election Day. And it's not just, you know, we're not 

just telling people to go vote for me. We're trying to 

solicit feedback and understand what, you know, 

information is at the top of people's minds. And what 

we've been hearing since the Scotus decision, one of the 

top three issues that we hear at the doors actually has 

to do with student debt. And believe it or not, we've 

heard a lot of this from parents and different people. 

And oftentimes people think that young folks and this 

generation's in debt because we live beyond our means. 

But it's not because we live beyond our means. It's 

because we've been denied the means to live. And I'm 

very happy that the Biden Administration is pursuing 

alternative methods to ensure that this relief can be 

given to the Americans that deserve it, that are 

eligible and that need it. And so just here to vocally 

voice, you know, voice my support for this important, 

amazing program. Want to ensure that this is done 

swiftly. And my office is here to answer any questions 

and be as supportive as we can as we work to achieve 
46

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

student debt relief for Americans. Thank you so much for 

having me today.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Shanna 

Hayes. Shanna Hayes. You have four minutes.

MS. HAYES: Awesome. Thank you so much. Again, I 

want to just reiterate, thank you all for letting us 

come here today and share some comments with all of you. 

Again, my name is Shanna Hayes, and I am a student loan 

borrower myself. My college journey began like many 

first generation millennials, with the uncertain ending 

to the endless questions of what do you want to do when 

you grow up and a family that saw higher education as 

the door to opportunities that they had only once 

dreamed of. My career journey as an educator has carried 

over $130,000 of student loan debt that is now over 

$150,000 owed due to continuously compounding interest 

over the last 11 years. The recent COVID 19 payment 

pauses have presented a life raft for my wife and I. As 

like many others, we face the uncertainty of careers and 

found ourselves having to live as a one-income 

household. Today, we are unfortunately in a similar 

scenario as the role that brought us to the DMV area was 

eliminated just six weeks after we sold our home and 

moved here. We have been here before, only this time the 

reality of our student loan payments restarting is 
47

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

beginning to loom large. As we look ahead, resuming 

payments without cancellation will harm not only student 

borrowers like me, but prevent grandparents from 

retiring, force families to decide which bills they are 

going to pay, and harm student loan borrowers across our 

nation. I remain hopeful and continue to urge the Biden 

Administration to continue exhausting all options, 

including the use of the Higher Education Act to provide 

debt relief to as many borrowers as possible. Students 

like me cannot wait much longer for something to give. 

The $40,000 in possible debt relief that my family is 

awaiting would truly be life changing, as it would be 

the first time our collective loan balances would be 

less than we borrowed, regardless of us continually 

paying. Providing hope is critical, but without relief 

to follow, the hope that we have cannot last forever. 

Student debt cancellation is legal, essential for 

millions of students and families like mine, and will 

truly transform the lives of countless borrowers in 

America. Thanks again for your time today. I really 

appreciate it.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you. Richard Nye.

MR. NYE: Hello. 

MS. ABERNATHY: You have four minutes. Okay.

MR. NYE: I'm Rick Nye. I'm a paramedic located in 
48

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

the Southeast. A lot of talk today about the 20,000, 

50,000. That would all be phenomenal. I'm hoping to give 

you guys some low hanging fruit regarding public safety

employees on the PSLF. So, I've been in EMS about ten 

years. There's about 1 million of us here in the United 

States. About 240,000 of them are paid providers, and 

78% of those are working full time. Now, about a third 

of them, 28%, work for multiple agencies. And I'm going 

to give you guys some statistics now that I'm going to 

tie together here in just a just a minute. Among the 

agencies that they work for, the two biggest subgroups 

are fire departments and private services. You know, the 

ones you see in the news are the ones owned by GMR, like 

AMR, Falck Ambulance, Rural Metro, Priority Ambulance, 

things of that nature. Now, 72% of all of us working 

provide 911 response. This is as of 2020, which is the 

last year I could find comprehensive statistics. About a 

third of all paramedics and a little bit less for 

advanced EMTs and a little bit less for EMT basics hold 

college degrees, but that number is rising. The 

standards are rising, the educational requirements are 

rising, and roughly a third of all of us have some 

manner of college experience. All of that said, only 14 

states classify EMS as an essential public service. So,

we are not treated like police and fire. And even in the 
49

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

states where we are codified as an essential service, 

one that the, you know, Government at some level must 

furnish to its citizens, those areas often have the 

option to contract the service out to a private 

ambulance provider, and that decision is not made at the 

state level. That's often at the local level. Example, 

the county that I live in has no structured EMS system. 

The main city that we have has a fire department that 

runs its own ambulance service. So those paramedics and 

EMTs are going to be covered under PSLF forgiveness. 

There's a lot of wealthy suburbs that have formed their 

own governments that surround the main city, and they 

operate fire-based EMS. So those EMTs and paramedics are 

covered. Where I work is a small, very economically 

depressed city still within the same county. They do not 

fund their own ambulance service. Their fire Department 

has contracted a private entity to furnish ambulance 

services. Our ambulances park in the fire station next 

to the fire trucks. We get dispatched on the same calls 

with the fire department. We transport all of those 

patients that the fire department responds to. But 

because it is a for-profit company, we are not eligible 

for public service loan forgiveness. And in light of the 

cancellation of the $20,000 cancellation, there's a huge 

raft of us, you know, that we're kind of banking on that 
50

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

forgiveness and we're now no longer eligible and going 

forward, we would not be eligible under the program 

anyways. The rule change that came out recently says 

that contracted agencies, you know, serving a covered 

entity are included if the state has regulations that 

prohibit the direct hiring of that service, like for 

physician groups.

MS. ABERNATHY: 15 seconds.

MR. NYE: So, but we are not covered under that 

because it's a local regulation that dictates, you know, 

who contracts us and who can and cannot hold that job. 

So, I urge you to consider including contracted EMS 

providers in your future considerations.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you. Melissa Byrne.

MS. BYRNE: Hi, my name is Melissa Byrne. I am with 

We, the 45 Million and I am a student loan borrower. I 

wish you didn't have to be here today. In all fairness, 

our debt should have been canceled last fall, but 

unfortunately a bunch of entities funded by really 

bitter billionaires decided that student loan borrowers 

didn't have a right to dignity, that student loan 

borrowers didn't have the right to our path to a little 

bit of relief. And so, we have to be here today because 

once again, it's the people who struggle in America who 

have to bare our souls, tell our stories and fight to 
51

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

have basic dignity. So, I'm a student loan borrower. I 

grew up in a single parent family. And I was told from 

basically the time I was born that you're going to go to 

college no matter what, because college is the path to 

be able to have, you know, a middle class lifestyle. And 

obviously, in the time from when I was born until I went 

to school, there was mass defunding of higher education 

and higher education switched to being loan financed. 

And I feel like I'm very lucky in that I was able to 

take the struggle of student loan debt and see that it 

was a problem for me and that it's a problem for others 

and that by coming together we can work to fix it. And 

now that we are in this process for using the HEA, it is 

really important that throughout this process that no 

one who was promised relief last August is left behind 

through this through this process. So, I urge the 

committee that will be formed to really see that 

everyone who was promised relief before, that that is 

the floor. It'd be great if you could do more relief. 

There's no limit, no limit to the amount of relief that 

you can give to people because we all deserve dignity,

and we need to be able to ensure that the promises are 

kept for everybody. You have 20 million people who are 

expecting to have zero payment. They should never have 

to make a payment again. The rest of the people are 
52

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

supposed to have a lot more of their debt relieved, and 

this should just be a start. The system is broken. It's 

broken because we have a higher education system where 

if you have rich parents, you get free college. And if 

you don't have rich parents, you either have to win a 

scholarship, which isn't usually enough to pay for 

college, or you have to be willing to put up with a lot 

of debt. And that's not fair. And that's not just and we 

can do so much better in this country. I hear from 

borrowers all over the country who are struggling. I've 

heard from a borrower in Appalachia who struggled with 

addiction, ended up in prison, got out of prison, got 

his life together, and now he's an addiction counselor 

and he is drowning in student loan debt. And he doesn't 

know a way out, but he doesn't want to change fields 

because his experience being an addict helps him be able 

to help other people get over their addiction and have 

better lives and we shouldn't have this system where 

people have to choose between drowning in debt or 

leaving a field that's important to them. So, I really 

urge everyone who will be on this committee, everyone at 

the Department of Education, everyone in the 

Administration to ensure that everyone that was promised 

the relief in last August, they get the relief they were 

promised, and we can build upon that to ensure that as 
53

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

much possible relief for as many people as possible. And 

the folks that are calling in from organizations that 

are against this program, they're funded by billionaires 

who just they're just mean and they're just bitter. And 

they enjoy watching people suffer and I think Americaand America should be better than that and really urge 

this committee to ensure that the promises made or the 

promises that are kept and that sometime in the next 

several months we're able to start seeing the relief 

being delivered.

MS. ABERNATHY: That's time. Thank you for your 

comments. Thomas Gokey.

MR. GOKEY: Hi. Thank you. My name is Thomas Gokey. 

I am a student debtor. I'm also an organizer with the 

Debt Collective but this morning I'm speaking on my own 

behalf. I guess a couple of practical issues. I think 

that the negotiated rulemaking committee should be a 

remote committee and not an in-person committee for 

several reasons. We've seen what happens with both 

approaches and the remote committees allow for greater 

public engagement, greater engagement by student debtors 

who are not able to hop on an airplane and get a hotel 

room if they wanted to participate. It also helps avoidit's a healthier group dynamic. We've seen in some of 

the in-person negotiated rulemakings what can happen is 
54

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

that some of the committee can gang up and bully other 

members of the committee, and that tends not to happen 

when it's remote. I think it's also important to include 

enough student debtors on the committee, including 

student debtors that have unique experiences that we 

have seen. Violent policies written by policy wonks that 

largely stay in the shadows and never have to reckon 

with the lives that they have destroyed and getting 

those people in the room and giving them a say in 

addition to the people who are required to be there by 

statute. This would include people with Parent PLUS 

Loans, older debtors who are over 60, student debtors 

who are in default, debtors who don't have a degree. 

Single parents, students, student debtors with 

disabilities and people who have already paid off their 

student debt but understand the need for cancellation, 

HBCU students. And it should reflect the reality of 

these violent policies that two-thirds of all student 

debt are held by women and that borrowers of color are 

forced to take on the most debt and stay in debt the 

longest. And that should be reflected in the committee. 

I also think it's worth just reckoning with reality. We 

have nearly $1.7 trillion worth of Federal Student Loans 

that is never going to be repaid. It's going to be 

canceled one way or another. And the only question is 
55

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

whether or not we're going to cancel it after we have 

destroyed millions of people's lives. And when they die, 

finally cancel it. Or we could cancel it now. We are 

also reckoning with a reality that we have a Supreme 

Court that ignores the law, ignores the laws that 

Congress passes, ignores the Constitution. I still 

remember when John Roberts was confirmed and he swore 

that when the Constitution protects the little guy, he 

was going to follow the Constitution. We saw that that 

was a lie. He's ideologically driven. And when the 

Constitution supports student debtors, he is willing to 

use it like toilet paper. I wish that we were in a 

situation where I could honestly say that the Biden 

Administration was using every tool, they could to 

cancel student debt. There are some tools that he has 

not used, and it's not too late. I hope he does use them 

because I think that the tools that are unused have a 

more realistic chance of delivering on the promise. 

Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you. Lisa Jones. You're the 

next speaker. Lisa Jones.

MS. JONES: Hello.

MS. ABERNATHY: Four minutes, Ms. Jones.

MS. JONES: Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you all 

for the opportunity today to speak on this issue that 
56

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

is, in my opinion, way bigger than loan forgiveness 

itself. As a Generation X woman, I was raised to think 

that education is part of the ideals we hold precious 

and truly one of the key to freedom to unlock our 

potentials on both a micro and macro level. It's very 

clear to me that as my Federal School loans debt weighs 

heavily on me. I'm equally disgusted by the bigger 

problem at large. The broken system in place that favors 

bailing out banks with great ease, yet I feel like the 

average taxpayer citizen like myself just faces this 

epic battle of overwhelming debt and it hangs over our 

head. Why is it so easy to bail out banks and 

corporations but students can't catch a break? I realize 

that the typical Republicans with their assertion that 

the student loan recipients, you know, they chose to 

take on the debt. To those factions, I say, I'm both 

shocked at their shortsightedness and their refusal to 

stop their judgmental rhetoric. Let me be clear. I speak 

for myself. But I know I believe I speak for many 

graduates who concur with my opinion that we got a raw 

deal. I grew up in the Reagan Bush era, and I see now 

that I feel like it was a culture of faux success. It 

was oversimplified to the point where the prevailing 

notion was that to be successful and make our parents 

proud, we had to get a degree. We must as a country do 
57

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

better. We must stop punishing those who chose a path of 

higher education by crippling us with these horrible 

loans. The fees and the interest are the worst, and it 

leaves us in debt [inaudible] responsibility for the 

Federal loans that took out, but that was over 20 years 

ago. I believe that the systemic disaster is that the 

current student aid programs simply keep us locked in 

this debt. We must fix this profit of the servicing 

providers like MOHELA. There are only one of them, but 

they're part of the problem, and I feel like they're 

just basically leeching from us. The educated but broke 

masses yearning to breathe without debt suffocation. 

I'll accept that I took out the loans, but after 20 

years in my situation of making payments as able, I 

should not have the balance of a 400% increase. When I 

graduated with my bachelor's degree, my principal was a 

decent figure. It wasn't fun, but it was doable to pay 

off. But that ship has sailed. The Federal loans I took 

out are now only around 20% of my original debt. So yes, 

at this point I am just paying off really interest. Any 

payments I make goes so much towards interest. It 

doesn't even touch the principal. There is no rational 

explanation other than the- basically I just feel like 

they're leeching the blood from us. And these are 

astronomical interest charges. I'm kind of angry that I 
58

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

chose a path of furthering my education and now I feel 

like I'm being punished with this debt that cannot be 

erased with any common, easy debt forgiveness, you know, 

as like you would get with credit card debt. If I run up 

a credit card debt from spending, no problem. Just file 

bankruptcy. Easy, move on. Clean slate. But for those 

who actually got a degree, you know, I feel like we're 

not getting the breaks. Shouldn't higher education be 

rewarded over bad consumer credit card mismanagement? 

Yes, I'm thinking of these things. And education- I'm 

sorry.

MS. ABERNATHY: 15 seconds. 

MS. JONES: So basically, my view is the system 

needs to be fixed. And I hope President Biden steps up 

and does what he promised in his campaign. And I just 

hope for a resolution. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you. Thank you for your 

comments. Lorenzo Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Oh, good morning. Thank you for having 

me speak here today. And thank you to the advisors and

administrative staff for organizing this rulemaking 

session related to the Biden-Harris Administration's 

plan to cancel some portion of educational loans for 

millions of Americans. I myself am a Colorado Government 

policy adviser, so I appreciate the amount of effort and 
59

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

work that goes into organizing these work groups. 

Although I am not here officially testifying on behalf 

of any organization, I bring with me the voices of a 

great deal of affected people to this workgroup. My 

family's story is one of service to this country. My 

father has been shaping the minds of this country's next 

military leaders since 2001 through JROTC training at 

public colleges and in public school teaching. My mother 

has worked in a medical industry my entire life, but we 

were always a working class family. My father's service 

helped keep my family in stable housing. When I 

graduated high school in 2009, my options before me were 

to enlist in the military like my father, or to attend 

college and figure out how I could be- how I could best 

be of service to my country as well. However, my family 

never made enough money to save for my education with 

the rapidly increasing unaffordability of a college 

education. My father deservedly used the GI benefits 

available to pursue his education as well. I became 

responsible for the full cost of tuition at the state 

school where I completed my degree in political science 

in 2015 and I had to rely on Federal student loans to 

cover those costs. I worked my way through college, but 

the lowest wage service labor I performed often only 

left enough money to cover my rent and bills. I returned 
60

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

to college in 2018 to pursue a master's degree in public 

administration, opting instead to work full time for the 

university that I studied at to keep myself from going 

further into debt. However, between myself and my 

partner, who is an amazing medical professional, our 

household is nearly still $100,000 in student loan debt. 

The payment pause since 2020 has allowed us to begin 

building a family as we both progress through careers of 

service to others. With our daughter being born in 

October, we want to buy a home to provide her a safe and 

stable setting to grow up in. Broad student loan 

cancellation would allow us to secure that housing by 

allowing us to focus on- focus on modest incomes we earn 

on home security rather than paying $1,000 a month in 

student loan payments. There are no prospects for 

security while being subject to both astronomical rent 

prices and housing, and simultaneously paying down 

predatory loans for an education, education that, had it 

not been for, we would not be qualified for the jobs 

that we have today. As a state employee. I'm a member of 

our public employee union. Colorado Workers for 

Innovative New Solutions. Colorado Wins 1876. I asked 

some of my fellow dedicated public servants and 

political committee members just last night what it 

would mean to them to have their student loan debt 
61

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

forgiven. For some, it meant the repair of their credit 

and the ability to save for home ownership. For others, 

it meant that their entire family would come from under 

what is becoming generational debt for them and could 

unleash their economic potential. One of our members 

mentioned that the payment pause was the only way that 

he and his wife were able to buy a modest home and leave 

the rental market for good. All of these people are 

public servants who need the continued relief now and 

cannot afford to wait on a budget- sorry, on a broken 

public service loan forgiveness program to have their 

lives made secure. Our stories are similar to the 

stories of 45 million taxpaying Americans. Generations 

here and still to come, if we don't do something about 

the unaffordability of college and the student loan debt 

crisis now. This should be a no brainer. While I 

understand the rulemaking process is a long one [15 

seconds], I request urgency in this process to reflect 

the direness of the situation. With payments scheduled 

to resume this fall, millions of Americans will again be 

at risk of falling either behind on housing or family 

expenses or going through financial default and ruin. 

Don't let this [inaudible] promise die. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Aiden. 

Aiden Pratt. 
62

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MR. PRATT: Here. Good morning. Today.

MS. ABERNATHY: You have four minutes.

MR. PRATT: Good morning. Today, I stand before you 

shed light on a crucial topic that has been a subject of 

much discussion and debate, Biden's student loan 

forgiveness plan B. In a time where higher education has 

become increasingly unaffordable, burdening millions of 

Americans with insurmountable debt, this plan offers a 

glimmer of hope and relief. President Joe Biden 

recognizes the urgent need to address the crippling 

student loan debt crisis in our country. He understands 

that student loan debt not only impacts individuals but 

also hampers economic growth and stifles innovation. In 

response to this pressing issue, the Administration has 

proposed a comprehensive plan to alleviate the burden on 

borrowers and create a more equitable education system. 

Biden Student Loan Forgiveness Plan B builds upon the 

previous proposals and takes into account the realities 

of our current economic landscape and seeks to tackle 

the student loan crisis by implementing several key 

measures that will positively impact millions of 

borrowers across the nation. Firstly, the plan proposes 

a significant increase in the income driven repayment 

options available to borrowers. This means that 

individuals with Federal student loans will have more 
63

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

flexible and manageable repayment terms, ensuring that 

their loan payments are based on their own income and 

ability to pay. This change will reduce the burden on 

struggling borrowers and allow them to meet their 

financial obligations without sacrificing their quality 

of life. Secondly, the Biden's plan includes an 

expansion of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness 

program. This program provides loan forgiveness for 

individuals who work in public service jobs such as 

teachers, nurses and Government employees. After making 

120 qualifying play payments, the plan aims to simplify 

the PSLF program, making it more accessible and ensuring 

that deserving individuals receive the forgiveness they 

earn through their commitment to public service. 

Additionally, the plan proposes a change in taxation for 

forgiven student loan debt. Currently, when borrowers 

receive loan forgiveness, the amount forgiven is 

considered taxable income. This can create an enormous 

financial burden. For individuals who are already 

struggling to repay their loans, Biden's plan seeks to 

eliminate this tax burden, allowing borrowers to 

experience true relief when their student loans are 

forgiven. Furthermore, the proposal suggests expanding 

loan forgiveness for undergraduate borrowers. Currently, 

the income driven repayment options and loan forgiveness 
64

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

programs primarily benefit graduate students. Under this 

plan, undergraduate borrowers will also have the 

opportunity to benefit from Income Driven Repayment 

Plans and loan forgiveness, ensuring that the assistance 

is distributed more fairly across all levels of 

education. Lastly, the plan addresses the issue for

profit colleges and institutions that have left many 

students with worthless, worthless degrees and amounts 

of debt. It aims to strengthen oversight and regulate 

and regulation of these institutions, holding them 

accountable for their actions and protecting students 

from predatory practices. In conclusion, Biden Student 

Loan Forgiveness Plan B offers a comprehensive approach 

to address the student loan crisis by increasing income 

driven repayment options, expanding the public service 

loan forgiveness, public service loan forgiveness 

program, eliminating tax burdens, extending loan 

forgiveness to undergraduate borrowers, and regulating 

for-profit colleges. The plan seeks to alleviate the 

burden on student- of student loan debt and create a 

more equitable education system. It is essential for us 

to support this plan and advocate for its implementation 

as it holds the potential to transform the lives of 

millions of Americans burdened by student loan debt. By 

providing relief and promoting access to education, we 
65

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

can pave the way for a brighter future where individuals 

can pursue their dreams without fear. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Mr. 

Lucas. Rick Lucas.

MR. LUCAS: Good morning, Department of Education. 

My name is Rick Lucas and I'm president of the Ohio 

State University Nurses Organization, representing the 

staff nurses at the Ohio State University Wexner Medical 

Center. I've been a nurse for 20 years and primarily 

work as a rapid response nurse. I'm offering comments on 

behalf of the 1.7 million members of the American 

Federation of Teachers, which represents workers in 

every corner of society, including nurses and health 

professionals, teachers, higher education, faculty and 

staff, and public employees in countless positions. The 

AFT has fought for decades against the rising cost of 

degrees our members need to obtain their jobs. We have 

cheered the Biden Administration's efforts to lift this 

burden by any available avenue, including the creation 

of more affordable payment plans and common sense 

improvements to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness 

program that allowed more of our members freedom from 

student debt. However, not all AFT members qualify for 

Public Student Loan Forgiveness, which is why we vocally 

supported and remain supportive of President Biden's 
66

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

effort to offer broad-based student loan debt 

cancellation. We urge you to continue your work to make 

this cancellation a reality as swiftly as possible. 

Susan Vincent, a retired New York teacher and UFT 

member, is currently 78. Prior to the Supreme Court 

ruling, she stated what's really scary is if I were to 

have a health challenge and need medicine and have to 

make a choice between buying medicine and paying my 

student loan. If I didn't pay my student loans, they'd 

garnish my Social Security. As a Pell Grant recipient, I 

could receive a reduction of $20,000 from President 

Biden's cancellation program. But if not, I would be 96 

years old when I have- when I make my last student loan 

debt payment. Borrowers like Susan are not eligible for 

Public Student Loan Forgiveness because they are no 

longer working, but they are deserving of relief. Take 

Nicole Brune Cotton, a physical therapist who works in 

the ICU and including with COVID 19 patients at the 

height of the pandemic in 2020 and 2021. Nicole is in 

her mid 40s, educated at the doctoral level required for 

entry into her field, working an average of 40 hours per 

week or more and living in her mother's basement, all 

because of her overwhelming student loan debt that holds 

her back from having her own home or saving for her 

future. Susan and Nicole are just two of the tens of 
67

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

millions of student loan borrowers across the country 

who are drowning in student loan debt and what has been 

a broken system for financing higher education. We're a 

country that tells people to go to college but has notbut has made the only way viable- the only viable way to 

do that for too many people. And when the- and then made 

the system for repaying that student debt burdensome. 

This negotiated rulemaking is an opportunity to help 

correct that legacy. When student debt cancellation was 

announced last summer, over 26 million people applied 

via the short easy to use online form. The Department of 

Education moved quickly to data match and improve over 

16 million of those applicants. The enthusiasm for this 

program is still out there, and we want to help the 

Department regain that momentum. By providing this debt 

cancellation as quickly as possible to as many people as 

possible, you'll be making an enormous difference in the 

lives of my members, their families and the communities 

we serve. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Teela 

Davis. Hello, Teela Davis. You have four minutes.

MS. DAVIS: Hi, I'm Teela Davis and I work as a 

licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm speaking 

in a personal capacity. I want to thank you for having 

the forum and giving me and many others an opportunity 
68

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

to voice our concerns. I also want to thank you for your 

recent efforts to right so many historic wrongs when it 

comes to the student loan debt concern. I want to say 

that I don't hold this current Administration of the 

Department of Education responsible for the neglectful 

actions of previous Administrations. This Administration 

offers hope where there hadn't been any for decades. 

However, I do hold you accountable for making meaningful 

changes to uphold your own mission statement and I won't 

recount it here for brevity's sake. I don't think the 

Department's mission counted on the detrimental effects 

that student loans have had. A recent UGA study showed 

that student debt has had a negative impact on the 

mental health and well-being of so many people. 

Additionally, a 2021 article described how student loan 

debt can have an adverse impact on the economic wellbeing of communities. Whether intended or not, we're 

seeing those deleterious effects now. And so, I ask, is 

the Department of Education up to the task, and ask the 

genuine earnestness. I questioned the historic 

motivations of the Department because it seemed to move 

away from its mission in the past. What guarantee do 

borrowers have that you have our interests in mind going 

forward, given what has already transpired? And so, I'd 

like to mention and propose the following 
69

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

considerations. One, cost of living considerations for 

student Loan repayments. $85,000 in LA does not go as 

far as $85,000 in New Orleans. To set repayment based on 

income without regard for cost of living expenses to set 

many people up in expensive cities for failure. Two, not

all professions are compensated in the same way. Why are 

there no controls on tuition to reflect the restraints 

of the future earning within a given field? Three, 

consider unpaid internships, which shouldn't even be 

happening in the first place, or at least include them 

under the PSLF classification. Additionally, 

consideration should be extended to contractors. I'm 

looking at my EMS friend from earlier, especially where 

other people who are part of the agency or a part of the 

Governmental agency do obtain PSLF considerations. 

Please continue to honor the 2025 year payment student 

loan cancellation that you have just enacted. I think 

it's provided a breath of relief for so many people. 

Also, who audits the Department of Education? As I 

understand, the OIG is run by your department. How can 

we continue to have faith in the Department if there are 

no outside agencies or Administrations helping to create 

guidance and objectivity? Where was the OIG when all of 

this was occurring when lenders were negligent in 

administering our files? Why weren't things flagged 
70

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

earlier? Also, have a member of the student loan 

community at the table consistently helping to make and 

reassess decisions. Please consider adding a- excuse me. 

Please consider adding a borrower stakeholder in 

rulemaking if you haven't already. Eight, are you 

working with the Senate and Congress to identify 

additional measures to ease the financial burden of 

borrowers? I'll share about myself very briefly. I spent 

20 years of my working life in mostly public service and 

in some private settings. For ten of those years, I 

cared for a single parent veteran with dementia until 

she died in 2020. The impact of my earning potentialthis impacted my earning potential and my ability to pay 

in a consistent manner, but I managed to [inaudible] 

without going into default. My situation is by no means 

the direst case that exists. There are others who have 

had it worse. There are no current mechanisms to account 

for these types of life circumstances and don't know if 

it's a concern for the Department of Education, but 

maybe it should be. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Lisa 

Rapaszky.

MS. RAPASZKY: Good morning. My name is Lisa 

Rapaszky. I appreciate the Department of Education for 

holding this hearing and allowing me to testify. I'm a 
71

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

volunteer with Our Revolution and I'm speaking on my own 

behalf as an individual with student loan debt. I have 

$30,939 in direct, unsubsidized student loans. Had the 

Biden-Harris plan been allowed to move forward, that 

debt would have been reduced significantly by $10,000. 

On May 13th of this year, I graduated from Cleveland 

State University with a master's in urban studies with a 

focus on urban policy. My goal in attending this program 

was to switch sectors from nonprofit fundraising work 

and public school education into government. I took out 

my loans to attend CSU full time in order to expedite my 

degree completion. You see, I'm 50 years old and I need 

to pay off my loans as soon as possible. I have a 

mortgage to pay and need to save for retirement. My 

three requests for consideration are as follows. First, 

the Department of Education needs to reduce the interest 

rate they charge for students to borrow money to obtain 

an education. The APR on my loan is 5.28%. That is too 

high. For any type of loan, that is not a good interest 

rate. And in this case, it's coming from my Government. 

My Government is making money off of me while I'm 

obtaining the skills and education necessary to improve 

my Government. And isn't that arrangement the very 

definition of usury? Lending money at unreasonably high 

rates of interest. I've benefited from the pause and 
72

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

interest being charged and compounded because of the 

COVID emergency. I began my studies in the fall of 2021, 

and for that I'm truly grateful. But in the 118 days 

from when my grace period ends and my repayments begin, 

I will accumulate $570.64 in estimated accrued interest. 

According to your website's calculator, that is $4.84 

per day. It's just too much. Second, the Department of 

Education should not charge interest on the 

Administration fees charged to receive one's loan. The 

$939 of my loan balance are administrative fees. These 

fees should not be subject to the 5.28% interest. 

Lastly, the Department of Education should forgive 10% 

of one's principal at the end of a year worked in public 

service. Under the current system of Public Service Loan 

Forgiveness, one student loan balance would be forgiven 

after ten years of public service. Instead of my 

Government holding the balance of my student loan over 

my head for a decade, I would see that principal 

decrease yearly. In a decade, I will be 60. My ability 

to be a student- to be student loan debt free in ten 

years may be precarious. Currently, I'm a gig worker. A 

lot of situations could happen over ten years that could 

impact my health and my ability to work. Please remember 

that we are emerging from a global pandemic and that has 

caused severe global economic distress. By the 
73

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Department of Ed annually reducing my principal, it 

would act as an instant reward for my service, plus it 

could encourage me to remain in the public service 

sector and continue to decrease my financial burden in 

ten years, not 20 or 25 proposed by the Income Driven 

Repayment Plans. To reiterate my three points for 

consideration, the Department needs to reduce the 

interest rate they charge for students to borrow money 

to obtain an education. The Department should not charge 

interest on the administrative fees charged to receive 

one's loan. And lastly, the Department should forgive 

10% of one's principal at the end of a year worked in 

public service. Again, I thank you for allowing me to 

speak. Please let me know if I can be of additional 

service to the Department of Education in improving upon 

how students, especially older students, obtain an 

affordable, higher education and do not remain in debt 

until [inaudible] 75 years old.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Lisa 

Ansell.

MS. ANSELL: Good morning.

MS. ABERNATHY: You have four minutes.

MS. ANSELL: Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

today. My name is Lisa Ansell and I'm the associate 

director of the University of Southern California Casden 
74

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Institute, and I'm also the California State Chapter 

President of Student Loan Justice. I would like to first 

acknowledge the positive incremental changes that the 

Biden Administration and by extension, the Department of 

Education have taken to begin to rectify the decades of 

abuse and deliberate deception that has plagued the 

student loan lending system for decades. However, the 

changes that have been made thus far are exactly that 

incremental, designed to chip away at the edges rather 

than fundamentally reform a system so broken that it is 

truly beyond repair. These are my recommendations for

moving forward. Number one, the Department of Education 

must stop opposing student loan borrowers in bankruptcy 

court. The new bankruptcy discharge process that was 

announced in November of 2022 does nothing to mitigate 

the damage of the highly predatory, undue hardship 

clause that has prevented millions of borrowers from 

having a fresh start due to the burden of their decades 

old student loan debt that only grows with time due to 

predatory interest and fees. To the contrary, this plan 

simply removes the decision from a bankruptcy judge to 

the Department of Education that has little interest in 

ever canceling any student loans. Undue hardship is 

sufficiently ill defined and ambiguous such that you 

could easily justify approving all claims and letting 
75

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

the loans revert to being considered the same as all 

other loans in bankruptcy proceedings. While it will 

take an act of Congress to remove the undue hardship 

clause that is the root of all the negligent and 

unethical practices of the lending industry, the 

Department of Education can immediately cease to oppose 

student loan borrowers in bankruptcy court. Number two. 

according to Government data, there are 20 million 

public servants in the United States. However, to date, 

only 615,000 have received public service loan 

forgiveness. As of the June data from the Department of 

Education, this is a 3% success rate. Public servants 

are at the center of the overlapping crises of low 

wages, lack of affordable housing, and predatory student 

loan debt. The PSLF program must have the years of 

mandatory service down from ten years to five years, and 

all student loan payments should be paused without 

interest while the borrower is engaged in public 

service. There are too many public servants living on 

the edge of housing and food insecurity due to these 

overlapping crises, and student loan debt must not 

continue to destroy their lives and livelihoods while 

they provide the essential services to our communities 

that keep our society functioning. Lastly, I would like 

to ask why the Biden Administration is turning these 
76

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

payments back on when they know full well the emotional 

and financial devastation it will cause middle and 

working class families. The Joint Consolidation 

Separation Act has yet to be acted upon, despite having 

passed last year, and the predatory interest has 

prevented millions from even touching the principals on 

their loans for decades. Veterans are being denied PSLF 

and are living on the streets, and educators cannot 

afford to live anywhere near the communities that they 

serve. Student loan payments in any form should not 

resume until all of the corruption and profiteering that 

has saturated this broken system has been rectified and 

the borrowers made whole. The borrowers need a seat at 

this table, not just the lenders, for any of these 

proceedings to be meaningful. Thank you for your time 

today.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. At 

this moment, we've heard from all registered speakers in 

the morning session. I'd like to remind you once again 

about submitting written comments through 

www.regulations- excuse me, period gov website by July 

20th, 2023. At this time, we'll break for lunch. We'll 

see you back at 1 p.m. Welcome back to the afternoon 

session of our public hearing. At this time, we would 

like Darryl Ware to speak. I will just remind our 
77

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

speakers that there are four minutes. You will get a 15-

second warning. And if you do not end right at the four 

minute mark, we may mute you. So, Darryl Ware, if you're 

ready to go on camera and present your comment, we're 

ready for you to start. You have four minutes.

MR. WARE: Right now, I just go?

MS. KHAWI: Oh, actually, Darryl, may I interrupt 

you for one second? Your time hasn't started. I 

apologize, everybody. My colleague, Tariq Habash from 

the Office of Planning, Evaluation and Policy 

Development is joining me this afternoon, along with 

Brian Siegel from the Office of General Counsel. And of 

course, I'm still on today. I'm Tammy Abernathy, Policy 

Coordination Group Director in the Office of PostSecondary Education. Now, Darryl, if you'd be so kind as 

to give your comments, you have four minutes.

MR. WARE: Sure. So, I was able to look over the 

policy and look over the certain subheadings and figure 

out how it is this process actually works in reducing 

the financial obligations of student debt who've 

attended a higher education institute. I am someone who 

attended undergrad at Louisiana Tech University for four 

years and that cost me around $22,000. When I entered 

graduate school at Cornell University, an Ivy League 

institution, I went into over $150,000 in student loan 
78

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

debt combined. Looking at what Joe Biden has done with 

his executive order and his attempt to eliminate student 

loan debt for people like me, with the $20,000, $20,000 

debt recovery proposal, that would have been quite 

helpful for someone like me, right? I grew up in 

poverty. I did receive the Pell Grant. I did receive the 

Federal Perkins Loan. I did receive every type of 

subsidized loan you could possibly imagine. Then when 

things got really tough, I would apply for the 

unsubsidized loan. I was looking for a good return on 

investment with that. As of right now, based on my 

career decision, that has not happened because I've 

decided to pursue my purpose as opposed to my salary, 

which is something that we should want all students to 

do as a result of pursuing higher education. We promised 

our children that if they pursue the right education, 

that they will be fulfilled financially as a result of 

pursuing their passions. Unfortunately, that is not the 

case today. The Supreme Court that we have right now has 

struck down any opportunity for us to recruit the 

financial value that an education should give someone 

here within the United States of America. And so right 

now, I'm someone who is suffering from that. Many 

students across the country are suffering from that. And 

now we're at a place where it doesn't even make sense 
79

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

financially to get a four-year education, let alone a 

graduate degree if you're not going to be able to even 

get a job or be able to receive a return on your 

investment that allow you to pay off your student loan 

debt. I right now would not invest in buying a home. I 

right now would not have children because I simply 

cannot afford to have a middle class living the way that 

our predecessors and the way that former generations, 

such as baby boomers would have because the millennials 

and generation Z, we're all in a financial situation 

unlike anything we've seen since the Great Depression, 

because we have a hard time trying to even get jobs 

along, good paying jobs and for the people with 

education. Don't get me started about the people on the 

high school diploma.

MS. ABERNATHY: Mr. Ware, does that conclude your 

comment?

MR. WARE: I thank Joe Biden for doing all he can 

within the executive Department and within his scope of 

executive action, but I think more can be done in the 

future. The Supreme Court is not going to be on our side 

with this. And so, we must do everything we can and say, 

you know, the Supreme Court be damned. That's it.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Joanne 

Mercedes.
80

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MS. MERCEDES: Can you hear me?

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes, ma'am.

MS. MERCEDES: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I 

applaud the Department of Education and the future 

negotiators for the devotion to improve the PSLF 

program. I have noted and appreciated all the proposed 

rules to improve the Income Driven Plan. As well, 

holding this hearing to find ways to help millions of 

us. My hope is that this improvement will help us that 

have struggled for years with this forgiveness programs 

as well as the future generations. However, I urge the 

Department to please take into account the following 

requests that will help many of us. I am a nurse for the 

past 13 years and have dedicated my life to the service 

of my community in New York City. Due to all the 

misinformation and confusion, I have not yet been 

forgiven via PSLF. First, hold harmless. The PSLF and 

IDR waivers have been a blessing. Now we are informed if 

we consolidated, we are not allowed- we are not allowed 

to pay for all forbearances and deferments that are not 

being counted by IDR waiver. A lot of us consolidated 

multiple times, especially during the waiver time for 

the- in our deferments are in what the service call 

closed loans. Some of these loans were FFEL loans or 

direct already. Those of us that have struggled for 
81

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

years will like this opportunity to be closer to 

forgiveness. Please make sure this arbitrary rule is 

changed and include those of us on PSLF that have 

consolidated. Please revise it and help us. We're not 

asking this time to be given to us. Charge us. Don't 

limit it. And don't limit this time to include and don't 

limit this time. Please include those that were in 

chapter 13 and default forbearances, which have been 

left out from all the new changes. Also, some of those 

deferments were placed as errors and we can't do 

anything to fix it. It has been proven that multiple 

loan services steer borrowers into long and short term 

deferments and forbearances when they were eligible to 

low or zero payments. These forbearances in deferments 

were often quoted at random and a benefit of the 

servicer, not the borrower. Default payments. The 

Department proposed in their final rule borrowersdefault borrowers will receive credit towards 

forgiveness if they make equal to the IDR payments. Even 

wage garnishments and tax offsets will count. This 

include payments that are equal or exceed the ten year 

standard amount. We learned Chapter 13 payments and 

default payments are now going to be counted 

retroactively because of budget issues and feasibility 

issues for the Department of Education for both IDR and 
82

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

PSLF forgiveness. MOHELA has a millionaire contract. How 

come they can't count this fraud? In my case, after a 

life event, it was suggested by my servicer for both 

private and Federal loans to default. I defaulted in 

2017 and my taxes were garnished. Over 1000- over 

$8,000, which was comparable to my income based 

repayment plan. I hope those default payments were 

counted, including those with rehabilitation, 

forbearance which were over $500 a month for ten months. 

During this time our interest just grew. And now, after 

all the waiver and changes where people can consolidate 

new loans with no payments to get them forgiven, it's a 

punch in the stomach. I have this scarlet letter of 

default in 2017 and those months are not counting at 

all. Due to not having the staff, this is unacceptable. 

If we have the required documentation and provide proof 

of payment, why this can be taken into consideration? 

Programs like HRSA loan repayment for nurses for time 

served doesn't even consider my application because 

having this default history like it invalidates me as a 

person and a work ethic. Lastly, loans that were left 

over after a portion of the loan was forgiven during the 

PSLF and IDR waivers aka the hanging loans should be 

forgiven immediately. There are a large number of people 

who receive only partial forgiveness because the service 
83

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

is delayed when processing consolidation [inaudible] 

and- thank you and employment verification forms. Thank 

you so much for your time. Have a nice day.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Salvatore Cottone.

MR. COTTONE: Good afternoon. I hope you're all 

doing well. I first want to thank the Department of 

Education for hosting this public hearing and giving me 

and so many others the opportunity to speak today. My 

name is Salvatore Cottone and I'm a rising junior at 

American University. I am here today as a living 

testament to the transformative power of education and 

the crucial role that Federal assistance has played in 

my pursuit of higher learning. As a low income student 

with one parent and a recipient of the Pell Grant, I've 

been given the opportunity to pursue my dream of going 

to university and starting my journey to advocate for my 

community. The Pell Grant has given me breathing room 

for covering some of the costs of higher education and 

opened doors that would have otherwise remained closed 

due to financial barriers. Federal assistance has 

allowed me to dream big, to aspire to a brighter future, 

and to break the cycle of poverty that has affected 

countless other students, such as myself in the United 

States. However, it is essential to address the stark 
84

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

reality that the current Pell Grant amount of $7,395 

this academic year falls far short of meeting the true 

financial needs of low income students like myself. 

Covering around only 10% of my college expenses going to 

an accredited four-year private university, I'm burdened 

with tens of thousands in Federal student loans already 

and will have to take out countless more in the coming 

years as I continue my academic journey at my dream 

school. And I can attest that the rising costs of higher 

education, coupled with living expenses, have made it 

increasingly difficult to not worry about the mounting 

debt. I've spent the last couple of weeks alone worried 

about not affording the rest of my college journey and 

losing my final academic goal of going to grad school 

due to the crippling thought of taking out upwards up to 

$100,000 in Federal debt. Not only am I dealing with the 

worry about student debt, I'm worried about not even 

being able to get my grad degree due to the inhumane 

choice of either not pursuing my academic dream or 

choosing to go into crushing debt if I choose to. This 

is the case for so many low income borrowers across the 

United States, and cancellation is vital to the health 

of our country and our economy. If the Pell Grant 

doubled in amount, that could be a down payment on free 

college for students of low income in the United States 
85

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

and set a precedent for a Federal Government that is 

guaranteeing higher education to low income communities. 

And as we discussed the potential for debt cancellation, 

it is not just a financial decision. It is an investment 

in the mental health of an entire generation. It would 

send a powerful message of empathy and support from our 

Government, fostering an environment and setting a 

precedent where students can thrive and contribute fully 

to society. When Federal debt was first declared to be 

canceled, even students who didn't qualify for that 

round due to just taking out their first loans in the 

past year, felt relief that our nation was listening to 

our burden and that future rounds of cancellation for 

low income students could occur and there would be 

larger investments in higher education from the Federal 

Government in the near future. I have a family member 

who got their debt forgiven and even received a refund 

from the Federal Government after attending a predatory 

for-profit college. And they can finally take care of 

themselves and their family without the burden of 

student debt. I saw student debt cancellation firsthand 

from the perspective of someone who didn't receive it 

due to not qualifying in the past round and saw its 

potential. And I'm scared of not seeing the reality be 

fulfilled for my generation and previous generations who 
86

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

will be graduating or graduated already with this 

mounting debt. I implore the Federal Government to 

cancel student debt through the authorization of the 

Higher Education Act and to substantially increase the 

Federal Pell Grant to guarantee higher education to low 

income students and to not burden them with tens, if not 

hundreds of thousands of dollars in Federal student debt 

just to get an education. The cancellation program 

should include everyone who was promised debt relief 

last August and expand those of us like me who were 

excluded last time. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Manuel 

Galindo.

MR. GALINDO: Hello. Do I just start? 

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes. Yes. So, you have four 

minutes.

MR. GALINDO: Okay. Well, first, thank you for your 

time. My name is Manuel Galindo, and I'm actually 

calling from South Central Los Angeles, a community 

known as Watts. My community has been, for generations 

now, known as one of the lowest income communities of 

Los Angeles. My parents migrated here back in '89 to 

escape war-torn El Salvador. And since their time here 

in this country, their number one focus for me was 

education. My father, who has my same name, cannot read 
87

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

or write. I repeat that my father, who has my same name, 

cannot read or write. My family instilled in me the need 

for education as a way to escape oppression both in 

their country and this one. So, I went to school and I 

strived to get a higher education degree. And the more I 

went, the more I learned, the more I realized that my 

parents' dream of seeing me achieve a higher level of 

education was going to be tampered by thousands and 

thousands of dollars of debt. By the time I finally 

graduated with my undergraduate degree, I ended up with 

over $29,000- $29,000 in student loans, which is still 

far lower than many of my peers in my community. Most 

people in my community do not question whether or not 

they're going to go to school because they know they 

can't afford it. It is not a joke or a mistruth or 

misinformation to say that the cost of education has 

gotten so high that students in my community, children 

from my background, are actively deciding not to go to 

college because they do not see the financial benefit in 

their lives or in their in their family's lives. I keep 

having to ask myself the question of whether or not I 

will continue my educational aspiration because I have 

to genuinely consider whether the fact that- whether the 

fact that I will go into $100,000 of debt to be able to 

have another degree that would make my family's dream 
88

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

come true, but at the same time add hundreds of 

thousands of dollars of debt that would deny my family 

the ability to have our American dream, which was to own 

a home. I've never been able to say that a home is mine. 

Neither have my parents. Neither have my siblings. And 

part of the reason for that is specifically student 

loans. All of my siblings are actively trying to finish 

their degrees, including my youngest sister, who now has 

the first of my nephews. And the reason I'm here to 

demand that Biden and this Administration cancel student 

debt is because I do not see this situation ever getting 

better until we start to recognize the impacts we are 

having on our future. I'm here today to demand that we 

cancel all student debt for all people and stop trying 

to stratify who deserves cancellation or not. The 

reality of it is the majority of people that have 

student loan debt are poor, low income communities that 

do not have access to wealth. Thank you for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Braxton Brewington.

MR. BREWINGTON: Hi, I'm here.

MS. ABERNATHY: You have four minutes.

MR. BREWINGTON: Thanks. Good afternoon. My name is 

Braxton Brewington. I am an HBCU graduate. I went to 

North Carolina A&T State University. It's the largest 
89

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

HBCU in the country. I have tens of thousands of 

dollars’ worth of student loan debt. So does my 

siblings; my brother, my sister. So do both of my 

parents. We are an entire family of student loans, and 

that is more of a common experience rather than a unique 

experience. Over 90% of Black students have to borrow 

Federal dollars in order to go to college. So, I'm here 

to talk about why student debt as a concept is a trap 

and why full student debt cancellation is both urgently 

necessary and necessary for moral and practical, let 

alone political reasons. First of all, I think it's 

really unfortunate and even ridiculous that we have to 

be here to negotiate. It's kind of a funny word that 

borrowers should have to negotiate for debt relief with 

anyone, certainly not the Job Creators Network, which is 

an ironic name, certainly not the Department of 

Education, which functions as the nation's largest 

consumer bank, to be honest, and certainly not student 

loan servicers who have taken advantage of borrowers for 

financial gain and been willing plaintiffs excuse me, 

not plaintiffs, but pawns for bad faith plaintiffs like 

the Job Creators Network and Republicans. All student 

debt should be canceled. None of it should exist. 

Education should be a right, not a privilege, like the 

previous speaker said. You know, I want to talk at least 
90

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

make sure I mentioned that there's a few distinct types 

of borrowers that should be present since this 

negotiation is going to go through. So, one, first 

generation college students should be at the table. 

People over the age of 62, which is the fastest 

demographic of borrowers, fastest growing demographic of 

borrowers in the US, which is also different than 

people- parents with Parent PLUS Loans. Those are 

distinct individuals. Debtors who have defaulted should 

be at the table. People who do not have a degree should 

be at the negotiating table. People who are single 

parents, people with associate's degrees, people with 

certificate degrees and people who went to HBCUs or 

other minority serving institutions. Those types of 

debtors, all of those debtors, more debtors and 

borrowers should be at the negotiating table. Once you 

stack this panel with debtors and once you all come up 

with a rule, you should implement an interim final rule. 

So, Secretary Cardona should implement an interim final 

rule in particular because payments are resuming, you 

all are returning payments one for the first time in 

nearly four years voluntarily, which will be extremely 

costly, which will drive people out of their homes. 

People will not be able to put food on the table, afford 

medications, save for retirement, purchase a home, start 
91

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

a family, have a child. All of these types of crushing 

economic hampers will commence on our economy and people 

because you are resuming student debt payments. So,

there's even more reason for you all to be urgent in 

terms of implementing student debt relief. Student loans 

are inherently a trap for women, Black Americans, 

Hispanic Americans, disabled folks, LGBTQ folks. They 

prevent people from being able to [inaudible]. They 

prevent you from being able to do anything that's 

thriving in the economy. So, you all need to cancel all 

student debt and you can use an interim final rule to do 

so. 

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Tricia 

Keffer. Hi, Tricia. You have four minutes.

MS. KEFFER: Thank you for your time and allow me 

to paint a picture today for everyone. Educated people 

who are registered voters sitting in campers and 

campgrounds while working full time jobs. And you know, 

we are the people who are drowning in debt for basic 

housing, food, professional clothes while putting on 

fake smiles at work. And now we're adding student debt 

payments again. Is everything fine? Well, when I'm 

sitting at my kitchen table and I'm looking at my bills 

and now topping off with student loans that are never, 

ever going to die. No. And to make the absurd comparison 
92

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

that this debt is akin to start a lawn service or 

babysitting money for vacation is just really 

condescending. A degree is a dedication of four years of 

hard work, sacrifice and dedication to pass tests. It's 

about being an informed citizen to participate in modern 

civil democracy and skills for jobs to make that happen. 

My story. Back in the 90s, I got a degree in psychology 

and a minor in business. It was at least affordable and 

doable with the assistance of my parents, a job, 

scholarships and a small student loan that I did pay 

off. Afterwards, I had the American dream of a 

photography studio, and I did that for about 20 years 

until the bank or housing crisis, a BP oil spill, and 

technology changed my profession and I started looking 

for a new creative career change. I decided to pursue a 

new career as a master's degree in landscape 

architecture because it promised jobs everywhere. 

However, the cold reality was, no, younger people were 

hired over me every time for the few jobs that were 

available and without the LA experience for a year, I'm 

even denied my title and state licensure. And right now,

I'm looking at that compound interest and it looks like 

a bad horror movie, like a nightmare on Main Street. You 

know, when the pandemic complicated everybody's world, 

my parents needed help and I needed help to start 
93

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

another business, which is not exactly where I wanted to 

be. And an overnight success really does take about ten 

years. That's true. And that was true with my first 

business. And this debt for graduate school was grossly 

misrepresented and there were no jobs everywhere. And 

honestly, it just kind of leaves me in a quicksand pond 

of debt with no help or no chance for escape. And it's 

going to severely hurt my next business. And if we ask 

homeowners about the application process for assistance 

in 2008 and 9, it didn't work for anyone. So, I'm 

asking, please cancel the debt. The price of college has 

skyrocketed since I went in the 90s and I'm left holding 

an empty bag. If Congress won't act, I'm calling on 

President Biden to demonstrate that leadership is about 

compassion and justice. It can't be one without the 

other. And know you have a big heart, Mr. President, and 

we are demanding for your bold and immediate action in 

compassion and a debt jubilee at this important moment 

in American history. And I thank you for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Liz 

King.

MS. KING: My name is Liz King, and I am the senior 

director of the Education Equity Program at the 

Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights in 

Washington DC. We are a coalition charged by our diverse 
94

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

membership of more than 250 national organizations to 

promote and protect the civil and human rights of all 

persons in the United States. I want to first thank the 

Biden Administration for the attention to our broken 

system of higher education finance. The $1.7 trillion 

student loan crisis is crushing individuals, families, 

and our economy, and the weight of this burden is 

disproportionately borne by Black and Latino borrowers. 

This did not happen by accident. Policymakers 

intentionally shifted away from publicly funding our 

higher education system to primarily a debt finance 

system, just as students of color and women gained 

access. Disregarding the rising cost of college for 

students and families, persistent racial wealth and 

income disparities, ongoing discrimination in the labor 

and credit markets and many other societal and policy

failures. These decisions have left a generation of 

borrowers on the brink of financial devastation simply 

because they sought economic security through higher 

education. A debt financed higher education system in a 

society defined by dramatic racial, gender, disability 

and wealth disparities will always be inherently flawed 

and inequitable. In our current system, these borrowers 

have no choice but to shoulder the burden themselves 

because the system benefits the wealthy and privileged 
95

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

at the expense of low income students. Though there are 

established programs intended to make student loan 

repayment manageable, the impediments to accessing 

relief through these programs are well documented. In 

fact, very few borrowers have been successful in 

obtaining relief through repayment programs and default, 

and delinquency rates remain high despite their 

availability. The only solution that addresses the harms 

of the past and clears the landscape to create a better 

system going forward is to broadly cancel student debt. 

The primary measure of any regulation or policy to 

implement and enforce the Higher Education Act is 

whether the actions advance equity in higher education 

and protect students from discrimination. At its core, 

the purpose of the HEA is to expand access and 

opportunity in higher education. This law was created 

during the height of the civil rights movement and at 

the demand of these communities, Black, Latino, Native 

American, Asian, American and LGBTQ people, women, 

religious minorities and people with disabilities who 

were shut out of higher education and the pathway it 

created to full participation in the social, political 

and economic life of the country. The law was created 

precisely to remedy problems such as the current student 

loan debt crisis and to fail to use its powers in that 
96

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

way would be a betrayal of the law's purpose. We need 

urgent action to heal those borrowers who have been 

harmed by the policies of the last several decades that 

shifted the cost of higher education from the Government 

onto individuals. And we need broader reforms to protect 

current and future students. As was broadly understood 

at the law's creation, the pursuit of higher education 

is not about the advancement of an individual or their 

family alone. We all benefit when the doors of 

opportunity are open, and talent is nurtured regardless 

of ability to pay. As the Department considers who will 

sit around the negotiating table and what perspectives, 

voices and interests will be heard, we encourage the 

Department to ensure that students and their advocates 

have a meaningful chance to be heard and to hold their 

rightful place as the committee's voting majority. In so 

many institutions, it is the wealthy and powerful who 

are given the chance to make the rules and decides who 

will win and who will lose. A negotiated rulemaking 

process can only be successful if the history and spirit 

of the Higher Education Act is honored and marginalized 

people are thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Barbara Koehrer.

MS. KOEHRER: Hello. Thank you for letting me be 
97

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

here today. I'm speaking about myself and my personal 

experience and that of my family. I have $176,000 in 

student loan debt. $50,000 or over a third of that is 

interest alone. I did what I was asked to do. I 

participated in the system. I went to undergrad; I went 

to grad school. And unfortunately, during my grad 

school, I did have to stop early to move home to take 

care of my father, who could no longer work. My mother 

was deeply concerned and neither of them were college 

educated. So, both of them have always worked low income 

jobs. I was fortunate enough to be able to do that, but 

I deferred and forbeared and interest accrued and 

accrued. I was lucky enough to be able to go back to 

graduate school. I finished my graduate degree and I 

know my graduate degree has opened doors for me at 

several of my current- several roles that I've held over 

the last several years. I also very much enjoyed working 

at municipalities, but I was still living at home up 

until the age of nearly 31, two days before I turned 31, 

working for municipality in the state of Illinois. I 

could not afford working at a municipality with student 

loans, with credit card debt that helped me survive my 

20s and support my parents to be able to move and live 

on my own in the state of Illinois. So I actually ended 

up picking up and moving states where I could live 
98

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

somewhere where the cost of living was significantly 

less and I could start paying down my debt. I was able 

to and have stayed in this state as my parents have aged 

while my sister is also on the East coast and as 

interest has continued to accrue. I've worked multiple 

jobs. I've worked multiple jobs through college, I've 

worked multiple jobs in my 30s and still this debt 

weighs over me. I am fortunate to be in the best 

financial position I have ever been in my entire life 

due to the pandemic. It took a pandemic and a student 

loan pause and a zero interest to put me in a great 

financial position and I'm in my early 40s. My parents 

have turned 80 this year. I've had to withdraw money 

from my 401K to prepare for emergencies. And now I don't 

know what I'm looking at in student loan payments. I 

have continued to move my career forward and been 

fortunate enough to move my pay forward. But what does 

that look like? I don't even know if I qualify for 

income-based repayments anymore. It's getting scary and 

I'm deeply concerned. I know my sister carries over 

$100,000 in student loan debt and she's not as fortunate 

enough to be making as much money as I am. We're both 

concerned as our parents age in their home, and it's 

deeply upsetting to think about what this means for us 

personally, for those that are not in as fortunate 
99

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

position as we are to be able to support each other and 

the economy as a whole, because this is going to take a 

deep impact as we all look at this. I believe very 

firmly that the Higher Education Act allows for the 

broad cancellation of student loan debt today, and I 

believe it should be canceled without rules, just broad 

stroke, just like the PPP loans that were forgiven 

during COVID. That needs to be the same for us as 

individuals who did everything that we were told that we 

should do in order to succeed in this life. It's 

important that we do that. It's important that we 

understand that these payments coming back are going to 

have not just a financial impact individual, but a 

mental and physical health impact, which then takes a 

toll on all of us as a part of this society. I hope 

you'll deeply consider broad cancellation for all of 

those- all of us that have done everything that we have 

been asked to do to participate in this society fully 

and continue to try and move our lives forward and now 

are looking at a deeply concerning way of what our 

stability looks like. Thank you so much for your time. I

deeply appreciate it.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Vanessa Torres.

MS. TORRES: Hi, can you hear me?
100

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes, ma'am. You have four minutes. 

MS. TORRES: Oh, hi. My name is Vanessa Torres. I'm 

a volunteer with Our Revolution, but I'm speaking on my 

own behalf. I'm 36 years old and I have approximately 

$186,000 in student debt. Most of this is from law 

school. The reason I have this debt is that I did not 

have the benefit of wealthy or even middle class parents 

to help me financially. I grew up very poor, raised by a 

single mom and spent a Lot of my childhood homeless with 

my mom and siblings. I knew that going to college was 

the only way out of poverty for me, so I worked 

extremely hard to apply and be admitted to my dream 

school, which was Harvard, for my undergraduate degree. 

I also attended law school at Cal Western in San Diego, 

which is where I'm from. The majority of my debt comes 

from law school, not Harvard. When I finished school, my 

job prospects in the legal field were not very good, so 

I took the first job I could find outside of law. Since 

then, I have supported myself with different jobs, some 

of them legal, some non-legal. But I have not made many 

payments on my debt simply because the payments are too 

high for me to pay them and also cover all my other 

bills, such as medical bills and the cost of living, 

including rent, which is very high in San Diego. Given 

the Supreme Court's decision on Biden's student loan 
101

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

plan, I'm not really sure what my new payments will be 

or how much I can afford since there's still a lot of 

uncertainty about his plans. I'm not sure I'll be able 

to make payments now, particularly because rent has 

skyrocketed, not just in San Diego, but across the 

country. The president should cancel all student debt. 

And my position on this is not just about myself. I 

worry about my family members that didn't go to college. 

I'm not sure how they're going to continue surviving the 

increasing cost of living. I'm worried about my own 

retirement as well as their retirement and where they 

will live as they age. I wish I could buy a home for us 

so we would always have a place to live. But that's not 

an option because of the burden of student debt. 

President Biden should cancel all student debt and zero 

out all the accounts without waiting for the court. You 

should have a plan to provide relief to people like me 

who have done the right thing in lifting ourselves out 

of poverty. I would just like to improve my financial 

situation to help the rest of my family, to save for 

retirement and to contribute fully to the economy to the 

maximum of my potential. It's not just rich people who 

should be allowed to attend college. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Faiza 

Mokhtar.
102

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MS. MOKHTAR: Can you hear me?

 MS. ABERNATHY: Yes, ma'am. You have four minutes.

MS. MOKHTAR: Okay. Thank you. Good afternoon. 

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak. I'm a 

first generation American in my late 30s and shoulder a 

lot of debt. Between my bachelor's, master's, and law 

degree, I owe nearly half $1 million in student loans. 

In some states, that's the price of a nice family home, 

complete with a two-car garage that I cannot afford. 

Some will say I did this to myself. I knew what I signed 

up for when I financed my education through grants, 

loans, and scholarships. What I did not sign up for was 

the usury that occurs with the revolving interest that 

seems to get bigger no matter how many on-time payments 

I make. The misinformation and the disinformation that 

loan servicers have done to me personally when it came 

to making numerous calls when I was trying to 

rehabilitate some of my student loans. And the archaic 

system of repayments that still exists in this 

Department to this day. I'm not here to give you a sob 

story of my situation, but to tell this Department that 

they can no longer pretend that the theoretical 

understanding of how repayment could work just doesn't 

work in the real world. As the current system holds, the 

pause has helped me get ahead financially in the last 
103

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

three years than I was ever on any IDR payment that the 

Department of Education provided me. For example, when 

recalculating my repayments to REPAYE, the calculation 

for the monthly payment never took account to the cost 

of living. And I cannot avoid that when I live in Los 

Angeles. It only assumes that everyone has 10% 

discretionary income and that I would somehow dedicate 

all of that discretionary income to student loan 

repayments. In any world imaginable, this is unrealistic 

and unsustainable. It would result in monthly payments 

that are out of reach for many borrowers, especially 

myself. And the more you owe, obviously, the more you're 

going to make, the more your payments increase. And this 

is very true for multiple degree holders like myself. At 

times it's left me quite stressed, wondering how am I 

going to make this sustainable for myself for years to 

come? It's quite daunting when everything increases 

around you except your earning power. As a first 

generation American, I was told not only by my family 

but by to a greater extent, the Government, that 

education will provide me so many opportunities and I'll 

be in a better place financially. While my degrees are 

something I'm very proud of, unfortunately, I don't see 

myself getting ahead with all the cost of stagnant 

wages, a housing market completely out of reach and 
104

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

rising costs with no end in sight and never having an 

opportunity to build generational wealth. There needs to 

be a streamlined process for all borrowers, not pockets 

of borrowers here and there, or tiers based on income or 

the type of Federal loan you borrow. But everyone, but 

everybody that owes student loans because the current 

system is inequitable. This system allows the loan 

servicers to dictate the process and only allow certain 

incomes to make it through because they got enough cash. 

I don't see this as equitable ever. The Higher Education 

Act and Title IV gives this Department the opportunity 

to explore a process that works for all of us. And that 

includes and is not limited to cancellation of debt. 

Every industry imaginable has been bailed out by the 

Government with never no questions asked. When do myself 

and 45 million others get the chance at a better life? 

This is the Department's opportunity to explore 

something valuable with the power they possess. And 

nothing should be asked of us until there is a system of 

place that is equitable for all. Thank you for your time 

and I yield the rest of my time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Cody 

Hounanian.

MR. HOUNANIAN: Hi and thank you for giving me the 

opportunity to speak. My name is Cody Hounanian, and I 
105

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

am the executive director of the Student Debt Crisis 

Center, a nonprofit advocacy organization. I am here to 

echo the voices of our 2 million supporters and even 

more importantly, 15,000 allies who have used our online 

action tool to submit public comment related to student 

debt cancellation and in support of student debt 

cancellation. I'm here to make it absolutely clear, the 

Department of Education must provide meaningful student 

debt relief using the authorities provided by the Higher 

Education Act, which empowers the Department of 

Education to go much further than even the President's 

initial plan. That means providing broad, comprehensive 

relief to all 40 million Americans with Federal student 

loan debt and at totals above the 10 or $20,000 

initially proposed by the president. I am not just an 

advocate, I'm also a borrower myself. I'm the grandson 

of Armenian refugees who were robbed of their ability to 

seek education. Like many Americans, I'm a firm believer 

in higher education as a pathway to the American dream. 

And yet, through my work and my lived experience, I have 

seen how student debt can stand in the way. I've spoken 

to thousands of borrowers over the years. Just like 

student debt has ruined many lives, it has prevented 

individuals from purchasing homes, saving for 

retirement, investing in their futures and so much more. 
106

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

The crisis has even broken families. I've heard from 

those who are struggling to keep a roof over their head, 

put food on the table and keep a safe and self- safe and 

healthy home for them and their children. This is 

unjust, and the worst part of all of it is that it 

disproportionately affects marginalized communities. It 

exacerbates social and economic disparities, and it 

makes it harder for this Administration to address many 

of the initiatives that it has put forward to address 

equity of all kinds. All of these issues were made worse 

by the COVID 19 pandemic, as we all know. During the 

worst days of the pandemic, we saw borrowers so 

desperate for relief. That is why when the president 

introduced his initial debt relief plan, over 26 million 

people applied within just a few weeks and it's why our 

own research shows that 8 in 10 borrowers still 

financially depend on the payment pause to keep 

themselves financially well. So, what this means is with 

the payment pause on Federal student loan payments 

ending shortly and the president's initial plan blocked 

by the Supreme Court, we are facing a disaster situation 

in which a student loan system restarts for 40 million 

people without the relief that most of them are 

depending on and frankly feel that they deserve. So,

with that, I just want to reiterate, we are urging you, 
107

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

the Department of Education, to take immediate action to 

cancel student loan debt. That relief should be 

comprehensive, and it should be accessible to all. With 

that, I just want to thank you again for the time and I 

hope you'll consider my comments and also the stories of 

borrowers who are sharing their experiences with you 

today. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comment. We are 

running a little early and we're waiting on two more 

presenters before our official break. So, we will pause 

right now and wait for them. Thank you, everyone, for 

waiting at this moment. We're going to take a break and 

resume our hearing after we come back at 2:08. Thank you 

so much. Welcome back, everyone. Our next speaker will 

be Yael Shavit. Yael Shavit. Hi. You have four minutes.

MS. SHAVIT: Thank you. Can you see me?

MS. ABERNATHY: No, ma'am.

MS. SHAVIT: Apologies for that.

MS. ABERNATHY: We can see you now. How about we 

start your four minutes now?

MS. SHAVIT: Appreciate it. Thank you for the 

opportunity to provide comments today. My name is Yael 

Shavit and I'm Chief of the Consumer Protection Division 

of the Office of Massachusetts Attorney General, Andrea 

Joy Campbell. We applaud the Department for convening 
108

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

this negotiated rulemaking process and encourage the 

Department to pursue a policy of broad debt relief to 

ensure that borrowers receive meaningful support. Such a 

policy is appropriate and necessary to address the 

undeniable failures of the student loan system that have 

disproportionately been borne by low-income borrowers 

and borrowers of color. We also ask the Department to 

include state attorneys general and student loan 

ombudspersons as represented constituencies on the 

negotiating committee in light of our office's unique 

perspectives and critical roles in advocating for 

student loan borrowers. The Massachusetts Attorney 

General's Office has long been on the front lines of the 

student debt crisis, fighting on behalf of student 

borrowers. We were the first AGs office to establish a 

student loan assistance goal to help individuals with 

their student loans, including identifying errors in 

their accounts and taking steps to avoid default. And we 

have led enforcement actions against student loan 

servicers to protect borrowers rights to obtain loan 

forgiveness under existing programs like the PSLF 

program and [inaudible]. Through this work, we have 

witnessed the suffering of countless individuals and 

families who are left holding the bag for a broken 

system that has been mismanaged by the Department and 
109

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Student Loan Services. The system has not only kept 

borrowers mired in insurmountable debt, but also allowed 

predatory for-profit colleges to enrich themselves at 

the expense of students, particularly students of color 

and service members. We have seen the broader impact of 

the student debt crisis on our communities and our 

economy, and we have observed the inadequacy of current 

programs for addressing the cumulative impact of years 

of systemic failures. Indeed, through our experience 

advocating on behalf of students, we have reached the 

unambiguous conclusion that debt cancellation is 

essential to address the failures of our student loan 

system and aid struggling borrowers. As you know, most 

students have no choice but to go into significant debt 

to afford higher education. And this is especially true 

for low income students and students of color. Further 

exacerbating their financial disadvantages, the failures 

of the student loan system have left borrowers unable to 

navigate the Department's unduly complicated and opaque 

loan repayment and forgiveness programs. Borrowers rely 

on Federal Student Loan servicers to help them access 

these programs and manage their payments [inaudible] 

years of service or misconduct have prevented borrowers 

from doing so and have trapped borrowers in unaffordable 

debt. Such borrowers are often pushed into preventable 
110

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

defaults, exposing them to wage garnishment, seizure of 

social security income, and loss of earned income tax 

credit, which leaves them less able to afford 

necessities more likely to face housing insecurity and 

job loss, and less able to care for dependent family 

members. While we are very heartened by the Department's 

recent efforts to streamline and improve loan repayment 

programs, such forward-looking changes cannot adequately 

address the massive student debt crisis that has 

resulted from the past failures of the student loan 

system. However, we believe that the Department's 

existing authority empower the Department to provide 

much needed relief. We encourage the Department to 

recognize the Secretary's broad authority to cancel 

student loan debt under the Higher Education Act, which 

authorizes the secretary to modify existing student 

loans and to compromise, waive or release [inaudible] 

title [inaudible]. Congress did not impose substantive 

limitations- the exercise of this authority that would 

prevent its use to address systemic failures. We call on 

the Department to promulgate regulations that will 

facilitate a robust use of this authority to grant debt 

relief to struggling borrowers. Thank you very much.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. I 

would like to remind everyone to please make sure that 
111

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

you've muted the public hearing so that there is not 

that feedback and that delay. Otherwise, we're not able 

to hear you clearly. Betsy Mayotte.

MS. MAYOTTE: Thank you. My name is Betsy Mayotte, 

and I'm the president of the Institute of Student Loan 

Advisors, or TISLA, which is a nonprofit whose mission 

is to provide fair, free, and expert student loan advice 

and dispute resolution to all consumers. I've been 

working in the student loan industry in a compliance or 

advocacy role for over 25 years and have worked with 

thousands of borrowers who struggle with their education 

debt. My testimony today stems from both my experience 

in a compliance role in the student loan industry, as 

well as working directly with these borrowers. First, I 

want to commend President Biden and Secretary Cardona 

for continuing to ensure that the Federal Student Loan 

programs are the step up that they were intended to be, 

rather than the setup that for many vulnerable 

borrowers, they have become. The low hanging fruit in 

the issue of broad Student Loan Forgiveness lies in the 

long-standing and current guidance issued to FFEL 

guaranty agencies back in December of 1993. The tendance 

issued as part of this guidance should be codified and 

applied in a consistent way across all Federal loan 

programs and to all borrowers. This includes and is not 
112

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

an exhaustive list, but writing off up to 30% of 

principal and interest on defaulted loans in exchange 

for payment in full, writing off defaulted loans where 

the total balance, including interest and fees, is less 

than $1,000, forgiving defaulted loans where the 

borrower is repeatedly unemployed with no prospects of 

employment, consistent and repeated recipients of public 

assistance, borrowers who are of an age that make 

substantial gainful employment and full time employment 

unlikely, borrowers whose potential for future earnings 

are significantly limited. In addition, we urge the 

Department to consider forgiving loans where the 

borrower is in default or was previously in default, and 

who has repaid the equivalent of the principal balance 

of their loan and the amount of interest that would have 

been paid under a ten-year standard term if the borrower 

is in default, has no income other than Social Security 

or income less than the poverty level for a family of 

two and is over the age of 70. Parent PLUS borrowers for 

whom the child had benefited from the loan has had their 

own Federal student loans discharged due to total and 

permanent disability or would otherwise meet that 

criterion, borrowers who have received a bankruptcy 

discharge on other debts and whose Income Driven Plan 

payment amount has been less than monthly interest for a 
113

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

period of five consecutive years, and borrowers who have 

not completed their degree or certificate within 200% of 

the published timeframe and who have a calculated $0 

payment on any Income Driven Plan for five consecutive 

years. I want to thank you for the time and the 

privilege of being able to submit comments on this 

important issue. We at TISLA look forward to seeing the 

results and beneficial impact of this policy initiative 

and are very interested in being part of the committee 

and think that we could be- provide robust insight 

considering our past history on this issue. Thank you 

very much.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comment. I would 

also like to remind everyone that we are accepting 

written comments through www.regulations.gov website 

until July 20th, 2023. Virginia Spindler. You have four 

minutes.

MS. SPINDLER: Thank you. I'm Virginia Spindler, 

and I'm 64 and my husband is 65. At the time when most 

people are thinking of retirement, that won't be 

possible for us. We will be paying on loans, it looks 

like. I'm the mother of four daughters, three of whom 

are living. My family currently holds 237,000 in student 

debt and parent loans to Aidvantage and Nelnet. Our 

combined family income is, at this time, 55,000 per 
114

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

year. You may ask, how did educated people get here? 

What parents? Well, parents don't want their parentswhat parents don't want their children to graduate from 

a prestigious university? Though we were of modest 

means, we encouraged our youngest daughters to accept 

the scholarships, the academic scholarships and we sold 

our house to allow the girls to go to school, and both 

graduated summa cum laude in three and a half years with 

both working in New York City and despite one daughter's 

severe health conditions that limited her attendance in 

the last year. Unfortunately, my own genetic illness and 

pandemic took a toll. I had to go on disability, and we 

lost our savings completely. Repercussions of COVID and 

severely damaged- that severely damaged our daughter's 

ability to find work in their fields. And they currently 

are holding down low paying remote jobs. We took a break 

from payments during the pandemic out of necessity, 

survival in fact, it was a big deal for us. And we 

celebrated every extension because we could breathe 

again. If payments resume, our family may have issues 

with housing and food. We're struggling every day with 

how we're going to overcome the situation because health 

issues unfortunately don't resolve easily. It hurts to 

look at our family life pictures from the past because 

it reminds us of what we've lost. We can't get a loan or 
115

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

even think of buying a home or even a decent car, much 

less a second car because of our current debt. And 

honestly, we couldn't afford it even if we did have 

access to a loan. Families like ours are counting on 

help. I hear this from other parents and grandparents as 

well, and I worry that the wealth of knowledge in this 

country will move elsewhere because there is no support 

for higher education here. This is a loss that we, that 

our country can't afford.

MS. ABERNATHY: Does that conclude your comment?

MS. SPINDLER: Yes, it does.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you so much for your 

comments. Thank you. Alan Collinge. And please forgive 

anyone that I've mispronounced your name. It's certainly 

not intentional.

MR. COLLINGE: Hi. Thank you. So, my comment today 

is quite simple. First of all, I represent student loan 

justice.org. We're the first oldest and largest 

grassroots citizen group in the country fighting for 18 

years now for student loan justice. We've got 1.4 or 5 

million people across the country. Interestingly, this 

group started the national conversation about canceling 

student loans through 1032 A. However, that's not what I 

want to talk about today. Far more important than this 

token cancellation effort from Joe Biden is bankruptcy. 
116

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

The founding Fathers called for uniform bankruptcy laws 

ahead of the power to declare war and the power to raise 

an army and the power to create a judiciary in the 

Constitution. And this right has been uniquely, uniquely 

stripped from student loans. It lies at the core of the 

entire problem that we now face. So, I want to tell you 

a quick story. A family in Oklahoma, the Nelson family. 

They were probably misled by their bankruptcy attorney,

and they filed for bankruptcy and student loans was 94% 

of their entire debt load. Well, flash forward a year, 

year and a half. They found out the very hard way that 

no, indeed, student loans are not dischargeable in 

bankruptcy. So, this family got all the shame of a 

bankruptcy. Proud Southern family from Oklahoma. All the 

shame of a bankruptcy and none of the relief. And the 

result was horrific. You know, they had six children and 

the entire family perished. And I will just urge you to 

Google the Nelson family Oklahoma Student loans and 

suicide. So that is to bring me to the Department of 

Education. We have a two and a half year long promise 

from James Kvaal, from Richard Cordray and many others 

that they would stop, and Joe Biden as well, that they 

would stop opposing student loan borrowers in bankruptcy 

court. Well, what we got last fall was not that. What we 

got was the Federal Government, essentially taking that 
117

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

whole process out of public court and shoving it into 

the administrative bowels of the Department of 

Education. Not to mention their contractors like ECMC, 

one of the most viciously cruel companies in America on 

the student loan problem. Undue hardship remains. The 

only difference between the way it was and the way it is 

now is that now the bankruptcy attorneys have a golden 

carrot to dangle in front of tens of thousands, hundreds 

of thousands of families like the Nelsons and give them 

a false hope. So, they'll suck them into filing for 

bankruptcy. That's a thousand bucks. They'll suck them 

into initiating an adversarial proceeding, which is 

another 3, 4, $5,000. And the chances of them getting a 

discharge are roughly the same as they were before. The 

Department of Education, which many years of careful 

study have shown, has no intention or desire of 

canceling any loans through bankruptcy or any other 

process. Department of Education is now the final 

arbiter of undue hardship. That's putting the fox in 

charge of the henhouse. So, this new bankruptcy process 

is a cruel, vicious and I would say deadly joke. You're 

setting people up to fail, just like the Nelsons did. 

You people better get your- get your act together and do 

what's right.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 
118

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Timothy Babulski.

MR. BABULSKI: Hi. I thank the Department of 

Education for recognizing that the historical failures 

and the structural inequities of the student loan system 

necessitate new regulations that will provide 

desperately needed relief and long neglected oversight. 

I also say I share Alan's outrage over the way 

bankruptcy and discharges have been handled. And over 

10,000 people at last count agree and have asked the 

Department to cancel at least $20,000 of student loan 

debt and to do so without delay. First, we must 

acknowledge that while the Department has made 

improvements, a lot still has to be done. The revisions 

to PSLF helped, but they don't reflect the realities of 

contingent labor in nursing, social work, or higher 

education. The changes to total and permanent disability 

discharge reduce barriers but still maintain the undue 

hardship standard and an adversarial process. The SAVE 

Plan makes repaying student loans more affordable, but 

it's half as generous to borrowers who borrow enough for 

a bachelor's degree, and one-fifth as generous to 

borrowers with graduate debt as it is for those who only 

borrow enough for an associate's degree. The new Gainful 

Employment rule would ensure that borrowers are not 

worse off, but it does little to make sure they're 
119

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

better off for having pursued an education. So,

borrowers and borrower advocates must have a seat at the 

table. Organizations like JCN that rely on the continued 

precarity of borrowers must not. Regardless of the 

composition of any rulemaking body and the content of 

any proposed rule, the Secretary must act without delay 

to directly order the cancellation of debt or, as an 

alternative, implement an interim final rule regarding 

the modification, waiver, and release of the debt. Under 

no circumstances should the Department endeavor to 

limit, constrain, or circumscribe the Secretary's 

authority by requiring determinations of need, periods 

of emergency, requests for waivers, means tests, 

applications, or any of the other detritus of the past 

failed approaches. Similarly, while the rule should 

allow the Secretary to implement the President's 

directive regarding debt cancellation, the rule should 

not be either one time only or limited to an arbitrary 

amount of relief, especially when that leaves tens of 

millions of borrowers indebted for decades to come. 

Finally, the Secretary should provide borrowers as many 

pathways to relief as possible, including directing the 

Department to finally stop opposing borrowers who seek 

to have their debts or teach grant obligations 

discharged. The scope and timing of relief must reflect 
120

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

the true scale of a $1.7 trillion debt crisis and the 45 

million borrowers who urgently need and all of whom 

deserve relief that is automatic, instantaneous, 

universal, and total. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Christina Winton. I'm sorry. Excuse me. Joanna Kerns.

MS. KERNS: Yes. Can you hear me now?

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes, ma'am. You have four minutes.

MS. KERNS: Yes. My name is Joanna L. Kerns. Today, 

as one of millions of negatively affected lives by the 

Department of Education and the predatory student loan 

companies of this nation, you both are intentionally 

ever so guilty of preying upon our lives at a time of 

our innocence for your financial gain. You have violated 

me, millions of others financially, physically, and 

emotionally, and caused us years of severe distress, all 

because of one decision at a time of our- again, at a 

time of our innocence. The solution is we are urging you 

now to stop opposing all Federal Student Loan borrowers 

in bankruptcy court who are trying to apply for undue 

hardship and approve all applications in bankruptcy 

court and restore bankruptcy protection for all 

Federally owned student loans, and urge President Biden 

now to cancel all Federally owned student loans by his 

executive order, The Department of Education and the 
121

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

predatory, unconstitutional student loan lenders of this 

country have not and should not have the right to 

demean, demoralize, and cause the issue of suicide just 

for their immoral, intentional financial and political 

gain. Also, in my defense, why don't I have the 

financial ability to pay my student loans, you ask? Is 

because my 80- my 82-year-old father years ago was 

diagnosed with currently incurable multiple myeloma 

blood cancer. And he has- and he is still in multiple 

cancer treatments to save his life. Thank you for 

listening to my comments.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments.

MS. KERNS: Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Christina Winton. Christina Winton.

MS. WINTON: Hello? Can you hear me?

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes. You have four minutes.

MS. WINTON: Thank you. So, first of all, I want to 

thank everyone for letting me speak today on behalf of 

all student loan borrowers, both private and Federal 

held student loans. Okay? First, I want to tell you that 

with the Higher Education Act of 1965 we need to make 

sure that moving forward with whatever policies that are 

set in place, we need to stop opposing student loan 

borrowers in hardship, in bankruptcy hearings that are 

now being done through the Department of Education. But 
122

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

in any case, this is the reason why constitutional 

rights to uniform bankruptcy laws were uniquely stripped 

from student loans. And this process started the day 

that these loans were created in 1965. It opened up the 

opportunity for predatory lending. And the reason for 

that is when it was first established, it was supposed 

to be zero interest. Student loans were not supposed to 

be something that could be made money from, especially 

since most students that need loans are low to middle 

income cannot afford education without it. At no point 

in the Constitution under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 

does it state exceptions to any loans. Student loans 

should be put back in that category. And the next point 

I want to make on that and why constitutional rights to 

uniform bankruptcy laws need to be reinstated is the 

gross negligence that has occurred on the part of 

lenders and all parties that have been involved. We need 

to restore accountability to these lenders and other 

agencies that handle all student loans. I can give you 

my story as an example, but I can tell you for a fact 

that all student loan borrowers on one level or another 

have been dealing with these atrocities. You can ask why 

most of us aren't paying our loans. In most cases, we 

have actually been paying our loans for years. I've been 

paying for mine for 30 years. At no point in my adult 
123

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

life have I not had student loans. And I can tell you 

that as I made my payments and even paid more than what 

was due in order to get ahead and to pay off my loans, 

to my horror, I saw my student loans go up, not down. 

And in addition to that, I have since found that my 

lenders have lost all my payment history, so has the 

Department of Education, and I have asked my local 

senators to look into the matter. And they have since 

just not been able to give me any kind of answers on 

what's going on with my loans. So, I am currently a 

student loan borrower that's still in a position after 

30 years of paying my loans, I still owe as much as what 

I borrowed. They never lowered my principal. I am 

currently a public servant, so I am by no means somebody 

that's not working and a burden to society. And most of 

our student loan borrowers in one way or another are 

serving our country, whether they're military, public 

servants, Peace Corps or they're volunteering and trying 

to get back into the workforce, are in the workforce and 

working multiple jobs. Some of them are, in fact, 

eligible for public service, however- thank you. I want 

to say, if our rights are not restored, you need to 

consider shutting down all these student loans September 

2023 instead of starting interest up and then starting 

payments in October. Because honestly, at this point 
124

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

we're looking at- thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you. At this time, we're 

going to have a staffing change. I'd invite Wesley 

Whistle to join us from the Office of the Under 

Secretary.

MR. WATTS: Hello? Can you hear me?

MS. ABERNATHY: Hold on one second, sir. Hold on 

one second. We have a staffing change. Apparently,

Wesley is here, but we don't see him. So, I'm going to 

just assume that he- you all can see him as I cannot. I 

would also remind you to please mute the public hearing 

in the background. Otherwise, there will be a delay in 

the public hearing, and we will be unable to hear the 

speaker. The speaker, you will hear yourself on a little 

bit of a delay, so don't think that we can't hear you. 

Alright. Without further delay, Mr. Gordon Wayne Watts, 

you have four minutes. You're on mute.

MR. WATTS: You can hear me? Oh, let me see. How do 

I take myself off mute?

MS. ABERNATHY: You're good now. You're good. Now, 

let's start with your four minutes. Go. 

MR. WATTS: I'm Gordon Wayne Watts. I'm the 

national director of Contract with America Part II 

registered trademark. Here's my business card. I'm not 

affiliated with Newt Gingrich's part I. His part I was 
125

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

trying to get lawmakers to convince people to vote 

Republican. My part II registered trademark is trying to 

get people to get the lawmakers to do a few things to 

save America, and both liberals and conservatives, my 

number one concern is that taxpayers are on the hook for 

over 2 trillion of our national debt as student debt. 

Now, the students have paid way back more than they've 

borrowed. Okay? But they've been they've been paying way 

more than they borrowed. And you cannot get blood from a 

turnip. If you guys don't stop originating student loans 

to students that can never repay, it's going to crash 

the dollar because it's going to hemorrhage out. And so 

almost 10% of student debt- number two students, over 45 

million students with student debt and about another 50 

or 60 million are cosigners or family, Black Americans 

have twice the student debt, three times the default 

rate. And so, this particularly hurts people of color. 

And the third concern is patience. People cannot afford 

to be doctors and nurses any longer. Okay? What are you 

going to do if you have a fall or someone- who are you 

going to call? Ghostbusters? Okay? These old- these 

older people that had college when it was affordable 

were like, well, if they can't afford to go to college, 

well, they just shouldn't go. But they need a heart 

attack doctor or a cancer doctor or someone when they 
126

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

break their arm. So, telling the students not to go is 

not the right answer. Now, before I give the solution, I 

want to tell you one thing that's not the solution. Alan 

Collins, who's a friend of mine and I know him, and even 

though he's considered Liberal, even he admits that 

cancellation of student debt forgiveness is not the 

right word, that they didn't commit a sin, okay, they 

had really no choice, okay, is not the solution. It's 

not a long-term solution whether you agree or disagree 

with it. And so, the bottom line is the PPP recipients,

for example, okay, are we going to tell them, well, you 

took the loan out? No, they're part of their loan 

contract is that they could have forgiveness or 

cancellation part of the loan contract. And by the way, 

I want to thank attorney Brian Siegel for being there. 

He can verify that one of the bankruptcy laws were 

changed to remove bankruptcy from an existing loan 

contract that altered existing contracts. Okay. Now, as 

I said, if the student loans are not- if the Department 

of Ed doesn't shut down and stop originating student 

loans, then there's going to be a problem. A lot of 

Republican lawmakers have complained, but those 

Republican lawmakers are at fault for not stopping the 

originations. Okay, my Republicans are at fault, not the 

help of students. Okay? There's only two things under 
127

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

heaven that's going to stop the loan originations. One 

is a miracle and that's not going to happen. Or two, 

returning bankruptcy rights. Article 1, Section 8, 

Clause 4 of the US Constitution is a conservative free 

market check. Police officers have guns. Colleges can 

file bankruptcy themselves. They get tax money. They can 

file bankruptcy. Credit card users and gamblers have 

bankruptcy, but students are defenseless. Now, the 

change in the existing loan contract well, by the way, I 

want to address the Heroes Act. The president did not 

really have good authority under the Heroes Act. It was 

kind of questionable. If he had used the 1965 Higher 

Education Act, he would have had legal authority to 

cancel all the loans. That was the way the law was 

written. Why he chose that, I don't know. But the point 

of it is cancellation of the debt is not a long-term 

solution, no matter which side you go. So only one thing 

is going to stop the bleed out of tax dollars and avert 

a crash of the dollar, returning bankruptcy, which the 

Department can advocate for. Maybe you can stop opposing 

borrowers in bankruptcy. I don't know. But the lawmakers 

are the ones that need to do this.

MS. ABERNATHY: 15 seconds.

MR. WATTS: Returning bankruptcy to stop the bleed 

out or we're going to crash the dollar. I'm Gordon Wayne 
128

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Watts, Contract with America Part II Registered 

Trademark. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

TyLean, TyLean Tile.

MS. TILE: Hello? Can you hear me?

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes, ma'am. You have four minutes.

MS. TILE: Thank you. My name is TyLean Tile and I 

want to speak today about the failure of total permanent 

disability discharge for Americans living abroad. And 

also, the root cause of the forgiveness programs. I am 

from Pennsylvania. I came to live in the United Kingdom, 

where I'm speaking from today. In 2007, when I was 

studying for a master’s degree at the University of 

Bristol and I decided to settle here permanently. In 

2018, I suffered mercury poisoning as a result of a

poorly performed amalgam filling removal. I was 

subsequently diagnosed with several conditions for which 

there are no treatments and there are no cures. By early 

2019, I had to accept that my health was not returning. 

I applied for disability in the United Kingdom, was 

vigorously assessed and I was awarded the maximum 

disability rate. The SSI and SSDI equivalent of the 

disability benefits that I received in the United 

Kingdom in the US would have triggered an automatic 

student loan discharge. In order for me living abroad to 
129

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

get my student loans discharged, I have to have a form 

completed by a United States licensed doctor. This means 

that I have to travel to the United States, which is a 

challenge not just financially but physically. And I 

have to hope that a GP that I may have not seen in two 

decades, if ever, is going to sign this form for me. 

However, during- I was supposed to go to America to try 

to achieve this in March 2020, the third week of March 

2020, and you all know what happened at that time. So, 

you know that I didn't make that trip because it was 

canceled. So, when it was canceled, I then thought, 

okay, well, they're accepting things like Zoom calls and 

everything. I'm going to try to get a doctor to speak to 

me on Zoom. And as soon as I mentioned the TPD discharge 

form, they would not speak to me. And it doesn't really 

make any sense because it's just a form that they fill 

out and they say, yes, this person has these conditions 

and these problems, and I sign it off and it's either 

accepted or rejected, but they were behaving as if their 

medical licenses are in jeopardy if they sign this form. 

And I find that a little bit bizarre. At this point, I 

now really can't conceive of going to America because it 

would be just too difficult for me. And I am asking for 

an easier, easier route to be opened up for the 

discharge of student loans for citizens living abroad. 
130

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

The US State Department suggests that there are 9 

million American citizens living abroad, and we are no 

more nor less likely to have either student loans or to 

become disabled. Everybody thinks it's never going to 

happen to them. Well, you don't know. You just don't 

know who it's going to hit. And there is one last point 

that I have to make, and that is the all student loan 

forgiveness is completely theoretical. And it has been 

denied or made bureaucratically impossible for thousands 

of eligible people, myself included. The reason the 

Government gets away with these failed forgiveness 

programs is because we have been stripped of our 

bankruptcy rights, which is completely and utterly 

unconstitutional. We demand the return of bankruptcy 

rights and to stop opposing bankruptcies in court, 

because without it, all student loan forgiveness, be it 

the PSLF, IBR, SAVE, TPD, it's all a crapshoot. Thank 

you so much for giving me the time to speak today.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Christina Cress.

MS. CRESS: Good afternoon. My name is Christina 

Cress, and I am a student loan borrower. Thank you for 

the chance to speak today. While the SAVE Income Driven 

Repayment program is a good starting point toward 

student debt relief in the face of the recent Supreme 
131

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Court decision, striking down the Biden-Harris 

Administration's student loan forgiveness plan, 

respectfully, the SAVE program does not do nearly 

enough. For starters, it only helps those who opt into

the SAVE program. That should not be the case. The 

protections offered by the SAVE program should be 

automatically made available to all student loan 

borrowers, regardless of the kind of repayment plan they 

are on. Second, the SAVE program only addresses runaway 

interest on a forward looking basis without doing 

anything to credit the borrower for prior runaway 

interest already paid toward borrowers' existing 

principal balance. Student loan interest at rates 

currently offered is predatory. Interest accrued on all 

student loan accounts should be zeroed out and interest 

already paid should be credited toward the principal 

balance. Unfortunately, if SAVE is approved as currently 

contemplated, I will not be opting into the SAVE program 

because currently I am on a pay as you earn or PAYE 

Income Driven Repayment Plan. For those of us on the 

PAYE plan, if we were to opt into the SAVE program, we 

would be extending the terms of our Income Driven 

Repayment Plan by five additional years. That's five 

additional years' worth of minimum payments that would 

be required to be made before the remaining balance is 
132

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

forgiven. That's unacceptable. The SAVE program 

protections and relief should be made available to 

borrowers on any kind of Income Driven Repayment Plan 

without having their current repayment plan terms 

extended for additional years. In addition, there should 

be more transparency regarding the number of qualifying 

payments or months credited toward an IDR repayment 

term. Currently, I'm unable to access that information 

anywhere, not through the Federal Student Aid website or 

through MOHELA, my student loan service provider. 

Separate and apart from my concerns with the SAVE 

program, additional policy changes are needed. Student 

loan payments should be 100% tax deductible and fully 

dischargeable in bankruptcy. Finally, any amount of 

student loan forgiveness at the end of an IDR plan 

should not be considered- forgiven at the end of an IDR 

plan should not be considered taxable income. These 

changes to tax policy and bankruptcy policy are needed 

alongside changes to student loan Income Driven 

Repayment Plan, regulations and policies. I hope the 

Department of Education will seriously consider 

improving the SAVE proposal consistent with these 

comments and recommendations. Thank you for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Paul 

Noss. Andrew Engelbrecht. Andrew Engelbrecht.
133

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MR. ENGELBRECHT: Yes. Hi.

MS. ABERNATHY: You have four minutes.

MR. ENGELBRECHT: Okay. Hi, my name is Andrew 

Engelbrecht. I'm from New Lenox, Illinois. Grew up in 

what I thought was a middle class household. But it 

turned out we were living paycheck to paycheck, just 

like a lot of people. My dad was a union electrician. My 

mom worked as well. And they fought all the time. We 

struggled all the time. I thought the only thing to do 

to rectify the situation for myself was to go to 

college. And so, I did. I had to take out student loans. 

And I had- I struggled constantly growing up, you know, 

going to school with depression and anxiety, knowing I'd 

have to pay these loans back. But I was told to go to 

college and get a good job. [Inaudible] student debt, I 

still haven't found a decent paying job. [Inaudible] 

trouble, I'd be homeless probably with the money I make. 

So again, I've done everything I was told to do. Work 

hard, go to school. And instead, I got student loans. I 

got all these bills to pay. My wife and I, that being 

all of this said, we are lucky. You know, we have a nice 

home. We have a baby on the way. And we have we had to 

replace our water heater furnace AC this year so we have 

another more financing options and it's just, it just 

makes me frustrated that it's like there's nothing we 
134

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

could do to get ahead. You know, one thing we could do 

is cancel student loans, which I don't think our 

financial aid, you know, we need to do, you know, we 

need to have tuition-free college and forgive student 

loan debt. I think the Department of Education should 

forgive our student loans, and it would help my wife and 

I out tremendously. I believe that the Higher Education 

Act of 1965 has that authority. And if the loans can be 

canceled, why not do it? Thank you for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Deborah Parker. Deborah Parker. Miss Parker, would you 

please mute the public meeting in the background so that 

we can hear you when you begin your comments? And you 

have four minutes. Thank you. Ms. Parker, you have four 

minutes. 

MS. PARKER: Okay, I'm here. Hi, my name is Deborah 

Parker, and I want to thank you for allowing me to speak 

with public comment. The reason I sent comments into

this regulatory site is to help you with the FSA student 

protections and loan issues. As a parent, I had two 

students graduate with bachelors and they sat for six 

years and unable to work during a recession time period. 

And during that time, they accrued debts of $22,000 

each. Those debts have been paid down now to $3,000. But 

it's been how many years? 26 years, I think. Is that 
135

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

right? 23. It's been, they're 40, let's see, 17 years, 

something like that. Anyway, I appreciate the fact that 

this is being addressed now and the relief that people 

need for their student aid is definite. It's not only 

linked to Borrower Defense or any of the other stuff. 

It's been chronic for a very long time. The other issue 

that I presented in my comments was about for-profit 

universities and I wanted to assist, I gave some ideas 

and suggestions for how to protect students against 

these fraudulent, for-profit universities that existed 

and were listed with Senator Harkin's 2012 report that 

he gave to the Senate. In that list, one of these 

universities that I attended with has been resolved 

under Sweet and Cardona for two cases. Meanwhile, I 

represent 8 to 10,000 of those cases in the PhD degree 

at that university that are still waiting for justice. 

The Sweet Cardona case at least has helped some with 

those two cases. In the 53 group of people that I am 

currently working with and the 8 to 10,000 that we 

represent, the issues that were not considered yet and 

must be considered in the FSA regulatory organization 

that will follow this this public hearing, there are 

issues on online infrastructures and what's built prior 

to accepting admissions and the schools that we attended 

that we- this 8 to 10,000 attended did not have an 
136

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

infrastructure built online to accommodate a PhD degree. 

So, all these students got stuck for a period of 2002 to 

2015, sitting and waiting for the infrastructure to be 

built. Some of the students were isolated to one school 

and allowed to build the infrastructure. There's a lot 

of issues here. I don't want to go into them here. It's 

not the place. But I just wanted to suggest that I have 

given you commentary addressing some of these issues in 

online universities and graduate programs. The kids 

remaining, they're not kids anymore. These are 40-yearold persons that remain $200,000 in debt, in excess of 

that also have no degrees. So, they have no way to 

recover this money.

MS. ABERNATHY: 15 seconds. 

MS. PARKER: I just want- I'm pretty much done, but 

I want to be helpful to you and this regulatory group 

and offer my services to do that at any time. Thank you 

very much.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. At 

this time, we do not have anyone waiting to speak, so 

we'll take a temporary pause. Speaker Jacque Abron. 

Jacque Abron.

MS. ABRON: It's Jacque Abron.

MS. ABERNATHY: I apologize. Jacque Abron, welcome, 

you have four minutes.
137

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MS. ABRON: Thank you. I just want to know- just 

want you all to know that the key to solving this 

problem is going to be the bankruptcy rates being 

restored to all the borrowers. Every single other debt 

is allowed to be discharged in bankruptcy. That would 

include unpaid taxes. That includes payday loans, that 

includes noncollateral and collateral loans, credit card 

debt, all of [inaudible] student loans. So, with 18, 19-

year-olds, 20-year-olds signing loans, who knows what's 

going to happen to them for the next 3 to 4 decades of 

their life. So, when they get cancer or when they have a 

spouse that is injured or killed, when they have 

children that are born with extreme disabilities, these 

are the people that are needing relief. It is 

[inaudible] one of the fights that's what's called for 

in the [inaudible]. We need our bankruptcy rights 

[inaudible] reinstated. Without these, the lendingthere's no regulation on the lending which now is the 

Department of Education. But if there's [inaudible] also 

with college tuition. So that's why the college tuition 

is just it's eye gouging. They're just gouging it up as 

much as they can. They're raising it sky high because 

there's no one- there's no regulation. There's no one 

saying, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. So, the bankruptcy 

rights, that's the most important aspect of this if you 
138

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

want to actually end the crisis. This student loan 

crisis will never be ended until we have our bankruptcy 

rights reinstated. There's 40, 45 million borrowers. 

Some had their bankruptcy rights when they signed. And 

then it was, it was taken away. So that's falsifying 

documents. If those documents are changing by just one 

party. The bottom line is that bankruptcy rights must be 

reinstated for all borrowers, and we need to stop being 

opposed when they are- I know that everyone can file 

bankruptcy. But the Secretary and the Under Secretary 

there [inaudible] undue hardship? Well, undue hardship 

is kind of like impossible to even prove. It's like, who 

knows if you're going to win the lottery tomorrow or who 

knows, you're going to slip and break your neck and 

you're going to be riding in a wheelchair for the rest 

of your life, unable to make a living for you or your 

family. No one knows what's going to happen. Undue 

hardship is just really not, it's not something that's 

provable. So, they should stop fighting us in bankruptcy 

courts and let these student loans be discharged through 

bankruptcy. The loans can be canceled through bankruptcy 

without even charging anything to the Treasury or 

needing anything added to the deficit. [Inaudible] 

that's just pure profit which is made off of these loans 

each and every year. So, there's plenty that's been 
139

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

made, and it should also even be an interest-free 

nonprofit. That's the only section of the Government 

that's making a profit. The US Department of Education. 

How is that okay? How is that? How is that okay?

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comment. Matthew 

Milliken.

MR. MILLIKEN: Hello.

MS. ABERNATHY: You have four minutes. 

MR. MILLIKEN: Great. Thank you for extending the 

welcome for me to make a comment. And I think I'd like 

to just speak to maybe a proposal or a feedback 

regarding the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. 

And I guess my understanding is under the current 

system, 120 total payments are required to be paid by 

our borrower while they're working full time under a 

nonprofit or Government entity. And that's in order for 

them to receive complete forgiveness of Federal student 

loans. And I would like to see, and I would like to 

propose that that system be modified to forgive that of 

the recipients and a stepwise system instead of 

something that's accumulative over 120 payments and then 

the full amount is forgiven as it is now. And my thought 

being that, you know, I imagine this would be a little 

bit more logistical of a thing that would be hard to 

pull off. However, I feel a more equitable system would 
140

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

be that every year that is served in a public service 

manner that that would, that would award a borrower that

10% of the original loan amount is forgiven. And if 

someone goes to 120 payments or ten years of public 

service loan or public service paying off, you know, 

these loans up until like it's 120 payments that like 

the remaining balance of whatever is accumulated, 

whether that's because, interest had accumulated to be a 

higher amount than what was originally borrowed. After 

ten years, then the final, the total amount is forgiven. 

I would even consider it being if every two years 20% of 

the original balance being forgiven as still being 

equitable. To me, I think it feels like an injustice for 

some people to partially be able to participate and 

serve in the public role and not have any reward for 

that. And that having something that's more incremental 

in this way would give, I think, more incentive for 

people to consider entering public service. It would 

also continue incentivizing people that are within that 

that are getting a more immediate benefit and reward for 

their service, and I think ultimately help retain public 

service as well. Whereas, you know, to commit to public 

service you- whether it's being a teacher, whether it's 

working in a certain healthcare setting or in nonprofit 

settings, you are signing up for a lower income and 
141

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

trajectory over your career often. And to be receiving 

some benefit in the process of those ten years I think 

is just a more equitable way to for someone to continue 

in this path. My wife and I had our kiddo during COVID 

and we're both clinical social workers and there is just 

not really any possibility we can welcome another kiddo 

if- until my spouse has her loans forgiven through the 

PSLF program. It would look differently if that was a 

changing number throughout the years, but we have to 

hold out another four years until there's just a more 

secure chance financially that we can have, a solid 

sense that we can afford a lifestyle.

MS. ABERNATHY: 15 seconds.

MR. MILLIKEN: And so, I'm just hoping that this is 

something that can be considered or specifically in this 

PSLF program. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Lazarus Leviticus.

MR. LEVITICUS: Hi, my name is Lazarus. Thank you 

for letting me speak. I just wanted to suggest that I 

think ultimately that the most fair and equitable thing 

to do would just be to cancel student debt overall. 

There's no reason why America should be the only western 

liberal democracy that doesn't subsidize education like 

other countries do, like in Europe and stuff where you 
142

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

can go to school in Germany or Finland or Sweden and 

it's free. I would absolutely- I- this student loan 

system is entirely predatory in nature. The interest- I 

have $70,000 in student loans. It was originally 76,000. 

I went to a private for-profit school when I was 19 

years old and they wooed me with all these promises that 

I would make all this money, and that I needed to sign 

up and you know, I needed to hurry in order to take 

control of my future and whatnot so I can end my cycle 

of poverty and whatnot because I grew up poor. And by 

the time that I graduated with my certificate, I 

graduated straight into the Great Recession where 

economic opportunity for me that it was virtually nil,

and it forced me to go into default. And in order to get 

out of default to get a loan consolidation because, what 

was it in 2020? Three years ago? No, I'm sorry, 2019, I 

started to try to fix my credit. So, I had to agree to a 

loan consolidation of- if I remember correctly, when I 

left school, I had $45,000 in debt. But by the time that 

I had to get a loan consolidation, I had to agree to 

sign for, it was like short of $77,000 because of the 

interest and the penalties that had accrued since the 

time that I had been in default. I'm still in school 

working on a bachelor's degree and I plan to go to law 

school afterwards. And I feel that the student loans are 
143

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

entirely predatory, mainly the interest and whatnot. 

Like I said, I think the most fair and equitable thing 

to do would just be to cancel these things outright 

because we students are America's future and whatnot. 

And is it that our own country is going to- how they're 

going to do us in terms of we spent years making the 

sacrifice to go to school, to learn something, to become 

good at something in order to benefit society and 

whatnot. Because society, you know, we need lawyers, we 

need doctors, we need scientists and stuff. And to 

saddle us with a lifelong amount of debt is absolutely 

criminal because with the amount of student loan debt 

that I have, I could buy a house with that and whatnot. 

And the reason why I have not been able to buy a house 

or start a family is entirely because of this. And yeah, 

the Higher Education Act of 1965 clearly gives the 

authority to the president as well as the Education 

secretary, to cancel these student loans. And nothing 

short of this should be done. I'm done. Thank you for 

letting me speak.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. A.D. 

Davies.

MS. DAVIES: Am I unmuted?

MS. ABERNATHY: You are unmuted. You have four 

minutes.
144

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MS. DAVIES: Okay. I'm speaking today as a 

constituent of the United States. The preamble of the US 

Constitution states we, the people of the United States, 

in order to form a more perfect union, establish 

justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the 

common defense, promote the general welfare and secure 

the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. 

Meaning, future generations. It's crystal clear that the 

entity or entities named the US Department of Education 

is not securing the blessings of liberty to the most 

valuable assets in the US, who is none other than we the 

people who are the true Government. We the people see 

this entity or entities named the Department of 

Education is not ensuring domestic tranquility and 

promoting welfare and blessings for our future 

generations. It's very clear that a decision for freedom 

has been made. We the People have signed a petition on 

Change.org, started by student loan justice that has 

over a million constituents of the United States signing 

and agreeing that student loans should be completely 

canceled, even according to census.gov. Since 2017, the 

Federal student loans have increased an additional $190 

billion, totaling 1.5 7,000,000,000,000 in 2020. The 

onset of COVID 19 pandemic has piled an additional 

layers of economic challenges on top of existing student 
145

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

loan burdens. The price of living is higher. Rental and 

mortgage payments have skyrocketed. The price of 

gasoline is up. The price of insurance is up. The price 

of food is up. The price for bills like electricity and 

water and medical bills and taxes are higher than ever. 

From where exactly the entity or entities named the 

Department of Education, whose role is stated as their 

mission statement is to foster educational excellence 

and to ensure equal access to educational opportunity 

for all suppose the constituents of the United States 

generate currency to pay for these loans. As a 

constituent of the United States, I declare that no one 

should be deprived of his liberty merely on the ground 

of his inability to fulfill contractual obligations 

based on his inalienable rights to learn, pursue and 

acquire knowledge in a higher education, to sustain his 

or her livelihood and the livelihood of their fellow men 

in the United States. The entity or entities named the 

Department of Education is in direct violation of these 

inalienable rights of the constituents of the United 

States, the true Government, the people. It is obvious 

to the American people, as expressed by the million 

signatures and counting and the petition that the entity 

and or entities named the US Department of Education is 

a contemporary debtor's prison and intends to shackle 
146

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

the true Government, which is we the people, the 

constituents of the United States, into debt slavery. 

Finally, I'm appealing to the highest court of true 

reality, the courts of Heaven above man and other 

entities, Governments and laws, to the God whose name is 

Yahweh Elohim, his only begotten Son, King Jesus and His 

Holy Spirit. In their book, His Law, states Deuteronomy 

15:1, at the end of every seven years, you must cancel 

student debts. This is the manner of remission. Every 

creditor shall cancel what he has loaned his neighbor. 

And finally, in closing, declaring in Exodus 9:1, then 

Yahweh said to Moses, come to Pharaoh and speak to him. 

Thus, says Yahweh, the God of Hebrews. Let my people go, 

that they may worship and serve me. The entity and 

entities named the Department of Education has become a 

you- a contemporary pharaoh to the constituents of the 

United States. And the God of Hebrews is commanding 

today, right now, let his people go in Jesus' name. 

Amen. May every human hear of my words be restored and 

blessed in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. And thank you 

for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. 

Bernard Schulz.

MR. SCHULZ: Hello, am I there?

MS. ABERNATHY: Yes, you have four minutes.
147

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

MR. SCHULZ: Thank you very much for allowing me to 

speak. I'd just like to say that the goal of economics 

is advancement. Advancement stands in the [inaudible] 

from knowledge and reasoning. Education is in- sorry, 

excuse me. Education is in some sense [inaudible] 

knowledge, education, advancement of success and such. 

I'd have to say that the pride and honor of advancement 

[inaudible] is a goal [inaudible] that is needed to be 

progressive. Through a process of decreased spending 

habits within the education system by planning to post 

to my Facebook page Global Politic Initiatives, Inc., 

there's a proposal proposed [inaudible] and [inaudible] 

utilize the interactive software to grow [inaudible] 

over 100% increase by providing intern opportunity to 

all children by fifth grade to teach curriculum to 

children two years and younger, below them depending on 

their GPA performance, we could create a capital savings 

that could implement funding for welfare reconstruction 

ideas also outlined on Global Politic Initiatives, Inc. 

We could create an education cost-free society 

[inaudible] go towards goals of economic advancement. 

The most basic instinct is survival. The knowledge and 

adapt to protect and advance. Let's protect our 

interests and advance our community. Without such 

education, no advancement would be possible. Rising to 
148

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

the higher essentials of education, galvanization around 

a cause so important and so vital to global success. 

Thus, galvanization [inaudible] important and such as 

the opposing roads is cataclysmic [inaudible]. Well, 

that's all I have to say. So, I would advise you to 

check out my Facebook page, Global Politic Initiatives, 

Inc. I believe that funding for free education Biden 

plan is essential. You deposit it- funds into education. 

Those funds revitalize into work, jobs, ideas, 

productivity, science, advancement, medicine. All 

productive, evolving and revolutionary around new 

[inaudible] of the new world Government. So, thanks for 

allowing me to speak. I'm done for my cause, so you can 

give it to you next speaker. I look forward to hearing 

the next person speak. Thank you.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. Ebony 

Brown.

MS. BROWN: Hi and thank you for having me today. 

My name is Ebony Brown. I am a student at Morris Brown 

College, and I also serve as the State Director for 

Rise, which is a student and youth led nonprofit 

organization. And we advocate for access to higher 

education and building political youth power. On last 

year, I had the pleasure of speaking in front of the 

Supreme Court to demand promise relief for millions of 
149

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

Americans that were in need of relief that would support 

their ability to access opportunities their loans have 

prevented, such as sending their children to college, 

retiring or purchasing a home. And the recent decision 

that was made by the Supreme Court was a blow to the 

movement. But it's on the Department of Education to 

right their wrong for the 1 in 8 Americans who are 

facing inescapable student loan debt. I can remember a 

time where I couldn't even take out a simple loan due to 

my inability to repay. And being on the frontline as a 

student organizer means leading the fight for the 

voiceless. We are simply asking you to invest in your 

working class that keeps the economy running. And 

provide what was promised. We put blood, sweat and tears 

to ensure that the economic system is in well standing. 

And we are tired of broken promises. We want this 

decision to be inclusive and not leave anyone behind, 

which means continuing to include voices at the margins 

like ours in this process every step of the way. 

Students go to college to catapult their professional 

careers. We are not a menace to society. An educated 

society is a thriving society. A thriving society is a 

greater America. And a greater America is a better 

America for all. Once again, my name is Ebony Brown. I 

serve as the state director for Rise, which is a student 
150

Public Hearings - 07/18/23

and youth led organization. And I digress. Thank you 

very much for your time.

MS. ABERNATHY: Thank you for your comments. I 

would like to thank all the speakers for sharing your 

remarks with us today. As a reminder, you may submit 

comments at www.regulations.Gov and the comment period 

closes on July 20, 2023. The docket number is on our 

negotiated rulemaking website and on your screen. This 

concludes today's public hearing. Thank you for joining 

us.