p.1 

OAR Box 1147 

Prepped by Ollie Stewart 

Document Number: 

17DIV-E-44 

Docket Number: 

A-87-11 

Printed 4/22/2008 2:42:56 PM Sheet 171 of 242 
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A-87-mmZ?-

i fi ' i UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY VL''la' <S</ 

user 

MAY I 6 1988 

ANN ARBOR. MICHIGA N 48105 

OFFICE OF 

AIR AND RADIATION 

MEMORANDUM 

SUBJECT: SAE Fuel Supply Systems Subcommittee Meeting 

FROM: Glenn W. Passavant, Senior Project Manager 2)«»v«\a)ntAkixs*/^T 

Standards Development and Support Branch 

TO: 

THRU: 

Public Docket A-87-11 

Chester J. France, Chief S^ " L* Hu^ ^ ^ 

Standards Development and Support Branch 

On February 29, 1988 Glenn Passavant and John Mueller of 

the EPA Office of Mobile Sources attended a meeting of the 

Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuel Supply Systems 

Subcommittee at tbe Veterans Memorial Hall in Detroit, 

Michigan. A full agenda is attached. Among the items 

discussed were EPA's proposed onboard vapor recovery test 

procedure and the need for fuel nozzle geometry standards as 

part of an onboard rule (see previous memo to this docket dated 

January 29, 1988, (IV-E-2 2.) A copy of the minutes of the 

meeting including an attendees list is also attached. 

Attachments 
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1 The Engineering Society 

For Advancing Mobility 

Land Sea Air and Space 

A Joint Effort 

by Industry, 

Government and SAE 

3001 WEST BIG BEAVER. SUrTE 602, TROY, MICH. 48084 

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UNCONFIRMED MINUTES 

SAC. COOPERATIVE ENGINEERING PROGRAM 

'_ DETROIT BRANCH OFFICE 

TEL; (313) 649-0420 

March 31, 1988 

FUEL SUPPLY SYSTEM SUBCOMMITTEE 

Unconfirmed Minutes of the February 29, 1988 Meeting 

Veterans Memorial Building, Room 820, Detroit, Michigan 

Members Absent: 

M. 

G. 

J. 

A. 

W. 

T. 

A. 

L. 

R. 

K. 

K. 

M. 

J. 

P. 

A. 

C. 

K. 

E. 

R. 

J. Harrigan -

E. Moore 

A. Aubel 

R. Baker 

E. Crute 

Detwiler 

C. Fink 

E. Freeman 

W. Furrow 

Chairperson 

Vice 

L. Kirkpatrick 

A. Kerby 

A. Maher 

W. Mueller 

R. 0'Connell 

R. Podgers 

Taylor 

A. Steilen 

G. Strager 

H. Thompson 

Chairperson 

T. J. Carr 

E. Ellsworth 

H. M. Faulconer 

L. W. Gibbs 

S. Hasko 

D. K. Lawrence 

R. L. Murray 

H. J. Silver 

D. R. Sterzinger 

G. E. Swick 

Also present: 

R. Thomas Northrup: SAE Staff Engineer 

P. B. Anderson 

P. Cingle 

W. D. Confoy 

R. D. Hall 

G. Heckman 

G. Pasavant 

************************************************************** 

1. APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES OF THE DECEMBER 1, 1987 MEETING 

Mr. W. D. Confoy stated that he was present at the meeting but his name was not so 

noted in the minutes. With this correction, the minutes were approved as written. 

2. STATUS OF FIVE YEAR REVIEW OF DOCUMENTS 

The status of this subcommittee's documents is summarized in Attachment I. Only 

J1114 remains with open issues. This document is written to govern "Pressure-Vacuuir, 

Type" gas caps. However, identical designs are available which are non-vented or 

vacuum only. Therefore, it is possible to purchase aftermarket gas caps with a 

valve system which is incompatible with some vehicle fuel system designs but they 

will fit the filler pipe of these vehicles. This could pose potential safety and 

emissions risks. The members of the subcommittee believe that a means must be addei 

to the document which will preclude the interchangeability of a vented or non-vente< 

cap. Different thread designs are under discussion but no design to date has provei 

goof proof. The use of left hand vs right hand threads is a possibility. Mr. Bill 

Crute, the official recorder for this document, will call a task force meeting of 

cap manufacturers and EOM engineers to develop a resolution to this issue. Mr. 

Crute hopes to have a proposal for the next subcommittee meeting. 

SOCIETY OF AUT0MOI ivt emj... 

370121E-
P.5 

3. ON-BOARD REFUELING VAPOR RECOVERY (ORVR) 

Nozzle/Filler Interface 

Mr. Glenn Moore has formed a task force under SAE J285 to develop more complete 

standardization of nozzles. This effort is not directly associated with ORVR 

but it is viewed by the members who work for the automotive manufacturers as an 

important part in achieving feasibility for ORVR designs. Mr. Moore circulated 

a sign-up sheet for his task force and held a brief meeting after this one 

adjourned. Attachment II is a communication from Glenn regarding the plans of 

the SAE J285 task force. Mr. Alex Podgers provided updated nozzle spout 

geometry data which is included here as Attachment III. 

Refueling Test Procedure 

Mr. Keith Kerby has formed a task force to evolve SAE J398 into a procedure for 

evaluating the quality of refueling. This could involve a procedure with a 

standard filler pipe and tank to asses nozzle performance and a procedure with a 

standard nozzle to asses vehicle filler system performance. Once this is 

developed the procedures might be enlarged to include an ORVR test procedure. 

Mr. Kerby circulated a sign up list at this meeting for those interested to join 

the task force. Mr. Kerby is planning to have a task force meeting in 

conjunction with the meeting of Glenn Moore's Nozzle Spout Task Force. 

SAE - EPA Cooperative Efforts 

Mr. Glen Pasavant from EPA was present and stated that EPA supports voluntary 

consensus standards which augment the goals of EPA. He said that if SAE 

develops and adopts a standard nozzle spout configuration that EPA will 

designate that spout as the official test spout for ORVR certification testing. 

However, at this time EPA will not agree to making the SAE standard spout a 

legal requirement for all gas stations because it is not clear that the 

anticipated SAE standard would represent a broad enough consensus. Mr. Pasavant 

pointed out that, although the membership in this subcommittee is open to 

anyone, in fact there are very few of the numerous nozzle spout manufacturers 

represented. He suggested that we should take positive steps to inform and 

recruit membership from all nozzle spout manufacturers and other affected 

parties such as the Petroleum Equipment Institute and Underwriters Laboratories. 

The Chairman agreed completely with this observation and will send a letter of 

invitation to all affected companies and add their names to our mailing list. 

A lively discussion developed regarding the relative safety and feasibility of 

various ORVR fill system designs. The chairman curtailed the debate and pointed 

out that the such discussions would be entirely appropriate at the upcoming SAE 

Government - Industry Meeting this May in Washington D.C. 

4. OLD BUSINESS 

ISO Nozzle Spout Standard: Mr Glenn Moore reported that no action has been taken by 

ISO. 

5. NEXT MEETING 

It was agreed that the next meeting of the full Subcommittee should be held in 

conjunction with the SAE Passenger Car Meeting and Exposition to be held October 31 

through November 3, 1988 at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Dearborn, Michigan. Details 

of the exact time, meeting room location and an agenda will be communicated to the 

members at a later date. 

M. J. Harrigan 

1988SAE-F1 Chairman 

mjh/880326 SAE Fuel Supply System Subcommittee 

- 2 -
P.6 

/ / 

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i r % J5 .-&* The Engineering Society 

—^%^*wrrr 'r°'' Advancing Mobility 

^Bfln^ag Land Sea 4fr and Space . DETROIT BRANCH OFF 

3001 WEST BIG BEAVER. SUITE 602. TROY. Ml 48084-3174 U.S.A. FAX NO. (313) 649-0425 TEL: (313) 649-

January 18, 1988 

Dear Members: 

The next meeting of the SAE Fuel Supply Systems Subcommittee will be held in 

conjunction with the SAE International Congress and Exposition during the 

week of February 29 through March 4, 1988 at Cobo Hall, in Detroit, 

Michigan. 

TIME: Monday, February 29, 1988, 1:30 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. 

PLACE: Veterans Building, Room 820, Detroit, Michigan 

A peel-off label computer printout of all anticipated attendees will be 

generated. This list will be in alphabetical order. In the registration 

area of Hall "A", there will be a registration with a marquee reading 

"Technical Committee" registration. All SAE members vill receive a member 

badge allowing them ro attend technical sessions and the exposition, at no 

cost. 

Technical Committee members who are not SAE menbers may attend the technical 

meetings at no charge. For a cost of $35.00, non-members can receive a 

badge that will permit them to attend the exposition, and any of the 

sessions to be conducted throughout the week. This fee can be credited 

toward the combination of membership initiation fee and first year's dues, 

when elected, if application is made within six months. 

Members who are planning to attend the Congress are encouraged to make any 

necessary sleeping room reservations as soon as possible. A hotel 

reservation form is attached for your convenience. 

Tne agenda for this meeting is attached for your convenience. 

If you are unable to attend, please contact Chairman Harrigan on the return 

meeting form which is attached. 

Yours truly, 

Darlene Crocker 

Senior Technical Secretary 

DC/bm 

Enclosures 

SOCIETY OF AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERS. INC. 
P.7 

/ 

| M E E T I N G 

\ 

\ 

ANNOUNCEMENT/AGEND A | 

/ 

SUBJECT: SAE Fuel Supply System Subcommittee 

MEETING DATE: February 29. 1988 

Held At SAE World Congress 

I TIME: . 

DURATION: 3 Hours 

LOCATION: .Gobtx-Jtell Room # ifTf. l ^fy.x^i-MVa. 

CONFIRM BY CALLING: M. J. Harrigan (313) 594-1062 

or Darlene Crocker (313) 649-0422 

; CHAIRMAN: Michael J. Harrigan 

\ Detroit, Michigan 

/ DESIRED OUTCOMES: 

1) Complete the 5 year review of documents 

2) Review progress in establishing Task Forces for the Nozzle-Filler Interface and for 

Refueling Test Procedures 

3) Review plans for On-Board Refueling Vapor Recovery 

4) Agree on meeting schedule, and next meeting date 

/ 

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ORDER OF AGENDA ITEMS 

Introductions 

Approval of Dec. 1, 1?57 

Meeting Minutes 

Status of 5 year Review of 

Documents 

- J285 Nozzle Spouts 

- J398 Fuel Filling 

- J829c Cam-on Cap 

- J1114 Threaded Cap 

- J1140 Stage II Emission 

Filler and Spout 

On-Board Refueling Vapor 

Recovery 

Nozzle/Filler interface 

P^e fuel ing Test Procedure 

Action plans 

-SAE/EPA Joint Meeting 

-SAE Gov't./Industry 

Meeting, May>*1988 

-Actions for affected 

documents 

Old Business 

ISO Nozzle Spout Std. 

New Business 

Next Meeting 

Adjorn ;. 

PERSONS RESPONSIBLE 

Chairman ' 

Chairman 

All 

Glenn Moore 

Kieth Kerby 

Bill Crute 

Bill Crute 

Glenn Moore 

Glenn Moore 

Kieth Kerby 

Kathleen Steilen 

Mike Harrigan 

Official Recorders 

Glenn Moore 

All 

All 

PROCESS 

Consensus 

Inform & Discuss 

u H 

Inform & Discuss 

tt tt 

Consensus 

Consensus 

TIME ALLOCATED 

5 min. 

m'O 

10 

10 

10 

10 

10 

20 

20 

10 

15 

20 

10 

10 

10 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

min. 

3 hours total 

1588SAE-Fla 

mih/880106 \ 
TABLE 1 

SUMMARY STATUS OF DOCUMENTS 

SAE FUEL SUPPLY SYSTEM SUBCOMMITTEE 

Document 

Number 

D ocument Title Document Type Official Recorder Status - March, 1988 

J285 Gaso I ine Dispencer Nozzle Spouts Recommended 

Practice 

G. E. Moore 

0 P U Division 

Dover Corperation 

Box 405003 

Cincinnati, Ohio 

513-870-3202 

45240-5003 

Published Feb. 1988; 

subject to future review. 

J398 Fuel Tank Filler Condition - Passenger Car, Recommended 

Multi Purpose Passenger Vehicle and Light Practice 

Duty Trucks. 

Kieth A. Kerby 

Chrysler Corp. 

12800 Chrysler 

CIMS 418-36-06 

H i ghI and Park, 

313-956-1734 

Dr. 

Mich. 48203 

Approved by the Auto 

Emissions Committee. Sent 

to Motor Vehicle Council 

for final approval prior 

to publication. After 

reaffirmation work will 

start to include filling 

quality requirements. 

J829c Fuel Tank Filler Cap and Cap Retainer Standard William G. Crute 317-825-3121 Approved by the Auto 

St ant Mfg. Co 

1620 Columbia 

Connersvilie, 

Emissions Committee. 

Ave. Balloted to the Motor 

Indiana 47331 Vehicle council for final 

approve I prior to 

' publication. 

J1114 Fuel Tank Filler Cap and Cap Retainer 

Threaded Pres sure - Vacuum Type 

Recommended 

Practice 

William G. Crute 

(Same as above) 

5 year review ballots 

returned with comments. 

Revised text, which 

included recognition of 

unique Japanese cap 

retainer designs, was 

reviewed by members. 

Methods to prevent 

interchanging Vented vs 

Non-Vented cap designs is 

an open issue. 

J1140 Filler Pipes 

Fuel Tanks 

and Openings of Motor Vehicle Recommended 

Practice 

G I enn 

(Same 

E. 

as 

Moore 

above) 

Reaffirmed. Published 

subject to'future review. 

SAEstatus 

mjh/88 0 326 

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P.9 

f^ I l r-\m~l-i. /Vl L.AJ / 

March 30, 1988 

To: MEMBERS OF SAE J-285 TASK FORCE 

Dear Members: 

Our Task Force will be meeting on April 14 at the Sheraton 

Metropolitan Detroit Airport Hotel. The hotel has airport 

limousine service. 

We expect to start the meeting at 9:00 and will be discussing 

those items outlined in my note of March 4, 1988. 

We expect the meeting to be adjourned by 12:00 Noon and no later 

than 1:00 p.m. 

If you have any questions regarding the meeting please feel free 

to contact me at 513-870-3155. 

Very truly , 

ASL 

Glenn E. Moore 

Chairman 

GEM/mls 

CC: R. T. Northrup 
3

.10 

FUELING COMPONENTS GROUP 

9393 PRINCETON-GLENDALE ROAD 

P.O. BOX 405003 

CINCINNATI. OHIO 45240-5003 

TELEPHONE (513) 870-3100 

March 4, 1988 

To: Members of the SAE J285 Task Force 

First, I would like to thank all of you for volunteering to work 

on the nozzle spout task force. 

Secondly, I would like to review briefly some of the points we 

discussed at our short meeting on February 29 following the Fuel 

Systems Subcommittee Meeting. This is not intended to be a 

formal set of minutes, since I do not think the meeting was a 

formal meeting. However, since we will be meeting in either midApril or early May, I think it would be a good idea to note some 

of the items we discussed. 

1. We need to determine just what our charter or object is 

that we are striving for if we are going.to make 

changes in J285. I am sure we have the option of a new 

recommended practice, leaving J285 as it is or making 

changes in J285. 

2. We discussed briefly the dimensions and the fact we 

need to establish a tolerance on the outside diameter 

of the spout, which is now a nominal 13/16" with a 

maximum diameter of .840. Several of the members of 

the task force stated the nominal dimension has not 

been tied down and is still open and needs to be 

resolved. 

The straight length of the spout also needs to be 

reviewed. 

3. Other dimensions and requirements of the new spout 

would include the following: 

A. Angle of bend on the spout. It was noted by one 

member that the older IA type nozzles have a 

steeper angle. 

CORPORATION / OPW DIVISION 
P.11 

Members of the SAE J285 Task Force 

March 4, 1988 

Page 2 

B. Alex Podgers of Emco Wheaton passed out new 

drawings to all of the members of the task force 

of a proposed spout including a slight modification to the bend angle. 

C. It was suggested that the latching means, 

regarding the spring or other method, be located 

in the new recommended practice. 

D. It was suggested by Robert Thompson that the 

vacuum signal range should be part of the new 

recommended practice. 

As soon as a meeting date and location is determined by the SAE 

office, you will be notified by the SAE. 

Very truly, 

Glenn E. Moore, P.E. 

Vice President - Technical Liaison 

GEM/dkd 
John A. Aubel 

Sr. Project Engineer 

Control Systems 

Bors-Warner Automotive 

707 Southside Drive 

Decatur, IL 62525 

William D. Confoy 

Vice President 

Shaw Aero Development Inc. 

4227 Progress Avenue 

Naples, FL 33942 

Arthur Charles Fink, Jr. 

Chief Engineer 

Husky Corporation 

1+ Dailey Industrial Park 

Pacific, MO 63069 

Michael J. Harrigan, Sr. 

Fuel System Tech. Specialist 

Body & Chassis Engineers Div. 

Ford Motor Company 

20000 Rotunda Drive, 

Building 5, Room 3077, Box 2053 

Dearborn, MI 48121 

Keith A. Kerby 

Project Engineer 

Chrysler Corporation 

CIMS 418 36 06 

Highland Park, MI 48203 

Richard Lee Kirkpatrick 

Staff Project Engineer 

Prod. Engineering Dept. 

BOC Division 

GMC 

942 Townsend Street 

Lansing, MI 48921 

John Mueller 

USEPA 

SESB12 

2565 Plymouth Road 

Ann Arbor, MI 48105 

Alex Podgers 

Engineering Manager 

Emco Wheaton Inc. 

Chamberlain & Parish Blvd. 

Conneaut, OH 44030 

Robert H. Thompson 

Project Engineer 

Stant 

1625 Columbia 

Connersville, IN 47331 

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SAE FUEL SYSTEMS 

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