Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime
Translation (CART) system used in the Signage Subcommittee meeting and is unedited.
The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss 
and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the 
public on the internet during the meeting.                                                                           




                         x--------------------------------x

                            UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

                              RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS

                         x--------------------------------x



                                 TELECONFERENCE

                                     *DRAFT*





                            THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 2014



                                    1:00 p.m.









               Location: United States Access Board
                         1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000
                         Washington, DC  20004



               Reporter:  Sandra Gartrell







                                                                           2



                              P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

                         MR. BEATTY:  This is Paul Beatty with the Access

                    Board.  As you know from the various emails I sent

                    out, the purpose of this call is to understand what

                    ADAAG requires.  It is not to discuss whether ADAAG is

                    appropriate in terms of the signage provisions

                    appropriate to apply to the rail vehicles or

                    discussion of what provisions need to be modified for

                    purposes applying to rail vehicles or a time to

                    complain about ADAAG provisions in general.

                         The focus is to what does ADAAG require and to

                    give you an idea how it may translate to a rail

                    vehicle.  We will also spend time reviewing the

                    variable message signage in the American National

                    Standards and Accessibility Standards, A.17.1.  You

                    got a handout on that, and also a handout of what we

                    believe the 100 percent of the signage requirements in

                    the current rail guidelines.  I used the words "sign"

                    and "signage" and searched the document.  So as a

                    colleague pointed out, there may be something buried

                    in there that says marked by.  But we will go through

                    it and obviously there are some people on this line

                    that know a lot more about the rail guidelines.

                         At this point I will turn it over to Jim Pecht

                    and we will get the ball rolling.

                                                                           3



                         MR. PECHT:  For those who don't know me, I'm an

                    accessibility specialist at the Access Board.  I have

                    been here since November of '91.  For your

                    information, also in the room is Marsha Mass and

                    Melissa Anderson, Aromie Noe, in our office here.

                         So if you have looked through the requirements in

                    ADAAG, you will notice in the scoping there are

                    basically several different ways that ADAAG treats

                    signs.  First is signs required to be both visual and

                    tactile with braille.  Those are required to be in a

                    certain location so they can been found.

                         There are requirements for signs that are just

                    required to be visual in nature.  And those have no

                    specific requirements to location.  And then there are

                    signs which we don't really cover, which is sort of

                    temporary signs, things like temporary signs in front

                    of a door or things like a directory or a menu in a

                    restaurant.  We really don't cover those things and

                    there are also things like signs for specific pieces

                    of equipment that really are not covered by the

                    standard as well.

                         There are only three or four signs which are

                    actually required.  And those are basically the

                    international symbols and required to reserve certain

                    things or note certain things.

                                                                           4



                         Is there anybody having trouble hearing me?

                    Because I am --

                         MS. HAMLIN:  This is Lise Hamlin.  I'm having

                    some trouble hearing you.  Your voice is very soft.

                    But I am getting the CART, but if you could project a

                    little, that would be helpful.  Thank you.

                         MR. PECHT:  That is the first time I have ever

                    been accused of being soft of voice.  I will try to

                    stick my mouth right up to the microphone.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  You blanked out for a few moments

                    and then you came back and that it is what I heard.

                         MR. PECHT:  Let's see how this works and we will

                    go from here.  Again, like I was saying, the

                    standards, as far as buildings are concerned, look at

                    signs in different ways, signs which are required to

                    be tactile with the braille and visual are required to

                    be in certain locations so they can be found.

                         Other signs which have no requirements for

                    location, only need to meet the visual requirements.

                    Temporary signs are not required to comply.  And signs

                    which indicate specific pieces of equipment really are

                    not covered by the standard as well.

                         The only thing that IS specifically required as

                    far a sign is concerned are the international symbols

                    in certain circumstances.  So from there, let me sort

                                                                           5



                    of step back and let you start raising some questions

                    about what you have any sort of confusion or need more

                    understanding with.

                         <<<:  Jim, I don't know if you were going to go

                    through Section 703 --

                         MR. PECHT:  Could you identify yourself when you

                    first come on.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I don't know if you were going to

                    discuss 703 later.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Who are you, please?

                         MR. MALDARI:  Frank Maldari.

                         MR. PECHT:  703 is the technical requirements and

                    I assume this is part of the place where you ask

                    questions about what you are confused about.

                         MR. MALDARI:  You mentioned that only the signs

                    that have a location requirement need to have various

                    lettering and braille, right?

                         MR. PECHT:  Right, otherwise how would you find

                    them.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I'm not against that.  But when I

                    read 703.1.2, it says signs that provide direction or

                    information about the interior spaces and facilities

                    of the site, should comply with 703.2.

                         MR. PECHT:  Let me stop and go back a minute.

                    You have to look at both the scoping chapter up in

                                                                           6



                    Chapter 2, the scoping section for signs is Section

                    216 and that is the section which tells you which

                    signs have to meet which requirements.  And the

                    technical requirements and the technical chapter,

                    Chapters 3 through 10, 703 is the technical

                    requirement for a sign.

                         So, in other words, if you would go to --

                         MS. MAZZ:  Jim, maybe we want to find out if

                    people had the opportunity to enjoy the webinar on

                    signs.  If most of you didn't have that opportunity,

                    then maybe we need to backup and --

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I have the PowerPoint, but I could

                    not through my system.  I don't know if it was

                    captioned, but I could not hear what was going on with

                    the webinar.  So I didn't get whatever you use -- I

                    see the PowerPoint, but I don't know if you had more

                    information there that was not on the PowerPoint.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yes.  And there was a CART transcript

                    that should play with it.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Okay.  I didn't see it.  I can go

                    back to it later.  So if there was a high point that

                    you wanted to highlight beyond the slides, that would

                    be helpful.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Did anybody else get to see the

                    webinar?

                                                                           7



                         MR. CORAN:  I looked at it but didn't realize

                    there was any audio to it.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I saw the webinar and I think

                    probably the confusion is where the PowerPoint link is

                    on the page, the webinar link is, I think, in the

                    upper right, away from that.  So it is not there,

                    right there together.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Ah, if you only saw the PowerPoint you

                    probably didn't get much out of it.  So maybe we need

                    to back up and discuss the relationship between

                    scoping and technical and go over some of that a

                    little bit for folks.

                         MR. PECHT:  Okay.  As Marsha was saying, you have

                    to look at both the scoping and the technical.

                    Primarily you look at scoping first.  You have to look

                    at the scoping to find out which signs have to meet

                    which requirements.  So, for example, in Section

                    216.2, designations stated interior and exterior signs

                    identifying permanent rules and spaces shall comply

                    with 703.1, 703.2 and 703.5 and it goes on to talk

                    about pictograms.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  Sorry.  I dropped the call and

                    came back in because I was raising a question and

                    could not be heard and I --

                         My question is not about what the rules say, but

                                                                           8



                    how do we change what it does say.  Right now for

                    people with hearing loss, the only symbol that is used

                    is the umbrella symbol, which is an ear with a slash,

                    which says (operator interruption) which if you have a

                    form of hearing access, but good luck in figuring out

                    what it is.

                         Unlike with people with wheelchairs, the specific

                    individual symbols are needed.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Janice, you may raise a valid

                    points.  But at this point the conference is

                    specifically focused in on what ADAAG says.  The

                    purpose is to give committee members an understanding

                    of what ADAAG requires and then a separate conference

                    to evaluate whether the ADAAG provisions regarding

                    signage are appropriate or need modification for

                    application to rail vehicles.

                         So at this point we want people to understand

                    what ADAAG requires and then they can take those

                    parameters, translate it to rail vehicles signages and

                    decide whether it is appropriate in that context.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Right, and you won't have any impact

                    on ADAAG itself.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  So if we understand what it means

                    then we wait for a different phone call?

                         MR. BEATTY:  The second conference call purpose

                                                                           9



                    is to focus on if we use ADAAG are provisions in ADAAG

                    appropriate for rail vehicles and are any provisions

                    needing modifications for purposes of rail vehicles.

                         We are not modifying the ADAAG requirements as it

                    relates to building the facilities.  We are simply

                    using it as a tool to develop rail guideline

                    provisions regarding signage.

                         I will turn it back to Jim to continue the

                    discussion about what ADAAG requires.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  Okay.  I will jump off because I

                    will join the second call.  Because I know what the

                    rules say; I just don't agree with them.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Okay.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  Great.  Bye.  Sorry.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Jim, would you continue with the

                    scoping.  Thank you.

                         MR. PECHT:  So, anyway, you will notice in the

                    provision I read it doesn't reference every section in

                    Chapter 703 for signs.  It only references a few.  It

                    will go to those requirements and they may reference

                    you to various parts of the standards in other places.

                         But for the most part, you will be limited in

                    what you are looking at with regards to what the

                    scoping directs you to.  So in other words, for signs

                    which designate a permanent number space like a room

                                                                          10



                    number, those are required to be both visual and

                    tactile and include the braille and they have a

                    specific mounting height and location.

                         There is another row vision in the scoping which

                    talks about signs which give you direction to or

                    information about functional spaces.  And those will

                    send you to just the visual requirements.  They don't

                    pick up the tactile requirements and they don't pick

                    up the specific location.

                         So once you sort of understand what scoping does,

                    you can sort of figure out, "Okay, in a rail car I

                    want this sign to do this so I need to put a scoping

                    requirement for that type of sign."  And that will

                    send you to the technical requirements that tells you

                    what the sign has to look like to meet the

                    requirements for accessibility with regard to height

                    of character, stroke, width and character spacing and

                    all that, finish and contrast and all that kind of

                    stuff.

                         Does that help with regards to understanding how

                    the scoping works with the technical requirements?

                         <<<:  I thought that was very helpful, Jim.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I thought that was very helpful.  I

                    do have a question, though, in looking at 216.2, I'm

                    looking at that section now.

                                                                          11



                         MR. PECHT:  Who is speaking?

                         MR. MALDARI:  Frank Maldari.  2.16 is clear, it

                    is a room number, I think the toilet room, designation

                    of toilet room would apply to, correct?

                         MR. PECHT:  Right.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Those are the two that come to

                    mind.  The ones I'm thinking of is means of egress.

                    Any exit sign?

                         MR. PECHT:  At the door that would designate a

                    permanent room or space.

                         MR. MALDARI:  But it has to be at the door?

                         MR. PECHT:  Yes, the ones at the hallway with

                    arrows are informational and directional signs.

                         MS. MAZZ:  I refer you to 216.4.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I'm looking at that now.

                         MS. MAZZ:  These terms have meaning in a

                    building.  They may not have the same meaning on a

                    vehicle, but basically these are the signs at the exit

                    points.  They are not the directional signs.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Okay.  So if there is a sign near a

                    door that tells you how to open -- release the

                    emergency door, is that something that this applies to

                    or not?

                         MS. MAZZ:  This would not apply to the raised

                    letter and braille requirements to that type of sign.

                                                                          12



                    These are the designations, essentially.

                         So, in other words, it's the sign that says "this

                    is an exit door."

                         MR. MALDARI:  Okay.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Obviously -- and there is sort of an

                    art to deciding what is a sign and what is just a

                    label.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Right.

                         MS. MAZZ:  And in some cases you will find labels

                    on all sorts of things.  And typically we don't regard

                    those as signs subject to 216 in a building.  But you

                    may in a vehicle want to apply some of the signage

                    criteria to certain labels if you think they are

                    important for people to know about.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Okay.  I'm just trying to be clear

                    exactly what we need.  I know -- well, there is no

                    room number on a car, but the toilet room is like one

                    of the ones I'm clear about.  And if there was an exit

                    door sign on one of the doors, that is one of the ones

                    that applies, right?

                         MR. PECHT:  In a building.  You may choose to do

                    something different in rail car.  If you had a sign

                    that says "in an emergency please follow direction of

                    train staff," that would be an informational sign.

                    That would not necessarily be raised in braille,

                                                                          13



                    because in the building world, because it is just an

                    informational sign.  It doesn't give you a designation

                    of a space.  It just tells you what to do in a space.

                         MR. HOFF:  I think the signs in the building only

                    are required when there are signs to each room.  In

                    other words, if the building is so simple that you

                    don't require signs at the entry doors, then you also

                    don't require the room designation signs.  Is that not

                    correct?

                         MR. PECHT:  I'm sorry.  We had a slight debacle

                    here.  Can you repeat the last part of your question.

                         MR. HOFF:  Yes.  In the scoping the rooms

                    designation sign is only required to be accessible if

                    there are room designation signs.  So if you have a

                    simple building with no room designation, you are not

                    requiring accessible room designation signs?

                         MR. PECHT:  Yeah.  The ADA as far as the

                    buildings are concerned don't require --

                         MR. HOFF:  I'm speaking to Marsha's point.  We

                    may want to do something different in vehicles.  I

                    think it is a valid point to point out in simple

                    situations -- and I think a rail vehicle is probably

                    that case.  And I realize we will get to that in a

                    second phone call.  To Frank's point I think I know

                    what he is asking.  When things are simple you don't

                                                                          14



                    really need room designation signs.  The exit signs

                    are simply for egress on the rail vehicle as opposed

                    to room designation signs.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Although most people think that the

                    entrance you enter into a building is always a

                    required exit, that is often not the case.  And I

                    don't know vehicles well enough to tell you that, you

                    know, the way into the vehicle is always a required

                    exit.  I guess it is.  But you also may have other

                    types of exits like operable windows and the like, or

                    hatches, who knows.  I don't know.

                         In any case the reason that the exits have to be

                    identified in a building is there are so many doors

                    that lead you nowhere or won't provide you protection.

                    I don't know if that is similar on a train.  I am

                    guessing not.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Going back a number of years we

                    adopted as many things --

                         <<<:  Can you hear me?

                         <<<:  Hello?

                         MS. MAZZ:  We hear you.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  So designated exit signs again so

                    people don't try to go into the wrong spaces, we do

                    and in some cases we will have electrical lockers, or

                    things that are obviously doors that might be

                                                                          15



                    confusing, labeled with raised letters and braille.

                         Now, we designate sleeping car room numbers,

                    which is we designate seat numbers as well.  Again, we

                    were thinking about it from the terms of when someone

                    leaves their seat and goes to the restroom, we want

                    them to have the best opportunity to get back to the

                    seat they were in, especially in a reserved train

                    where that is their seat for the duration of the trip.

                         So I think we may have at Amtrak, we may have

                    gone a little further than anticipated.  But we try to

                    look at what signs we apply the tactile letters and

                    braille to based on just being sort of common sense

                    for what someone will need to function within the

                    train.

                         So hopefully we get to discuss that in the next

                    more thoroughly.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I mean, any facility has that as

                    some sort of irrelevant doorways and others that are

                    needed by users of the facility.

                         MS. MAZZ:  In order to help people get a little

                    bit oriented, Jim has mentioned the difference between

                    the scoping and the technical sections and how you

                    apply the technical sections through the scoping.

                         One of the things I wanted to mention to you is

                    that the excerpt from the ICC ANSI contains Section

                                                                          16



                    703, note the numbering is the same as the ADA

                    standards and that is because we are working so

                    closely with them, but the provisions are not

                    identical.  So you will have to read through them

                    closely.

                         And one of the main reasons we gave you Section

                    703 from ICC ANSI is that ANSI standard now contains

                    provisions for variable message signs.  Variable

                    message signs are not currently addressed in the ADA

                    standards.  And we thought that you might want to take

                    a look at those requirements for VMS signs because we

                    think that they are likely to be used in vehicles and

                    in trains, generally.  And maybe this is an

                    opportunity to apply those criteria in vehicles.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Can I ask when you say variable

                    message signs, and I did see that, are we talking

                    electronic signs or something else?

                         MS. MAZZ:  We are.  We are talking about the

                    signs that are like the signs you see in Metro when

                    the next bus or next train is arriving.  They move.

                    There is motion to them.  They are not static,

                    usually.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I thought so.  I just wanted to be

                    double sure that that is what we are talking about

                    here.

                                                                          17



                         MR. PECHT:  One thing that didn't get to you from

                    the ANSI, the ANSI added to definitions in their

                    definition section that did not get sent to you with

                    regard to the signage and I will read it to you

                    quickly.  "Variable message signs or VMS are

                    electronic signs that have a message with the capacity

                    to change by means of scrolling streaming or paging

                    behind a background."  And the second definition is,

                    "Variable message signs, VMS characters, characters of

                    an electronic sign that is composed of pictures in

                    array and high resolution.  VMS characters have

                    variable pictures counts of 16 or great.  Low

                    resolution have a variable picture count of 7 to 15

                    rows."  That is the definition added to go along with

                    their technical requirements in 703 with variable

                    message signs.

                         MS. MAZZ:  And we can send those to you.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Thank you.  That would be great.  I

                    appreciate that.

                         MR. PECHT:  I just want to add one thing about

                    signs in general.  The ADA really -- it is very rare

                    that the ADA actually requires a sign.  Usually signs

                    are required by other things, by emergency egress or

                    just a desire to make the building more

                    comprehensible.  But technically the ADA does not come

                                                                          18



                    in until you -- say, when you provide a sign, you know

                    you have to provide a sign in a certain format.

                         In other words, if you are providing information,

                    certain information has to be accessible to certain

                    people.  Sort of the discrimination issue with the

                    ADA.

                         In other words, in a building if you have a

                    janitor's college and you don't want to tell people it

                    is a janitor's closet and you can keep the door

                    locked, you don't have to put a sign up for it.  That

                    is perfectly acceptable.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Under the ADA.

                         MR. PECHT:  Under the ADA.

                         You guys will think about what kind of

                    information you want provided in what format and that

                    is the kind of thing you need to look at with regard

                    to the fixed part of the train.

                         MS. MAZZ:  And now that Terry Pacheco has joined,

                    I would suggest you also look at the exceptions to

                    216, because I know Terry in a meeting previously

                    mentioned things like menus at the cafe car.  In the

                    ADA standard menus are expressly exempt.  So if you

                    look at the exceptions to 216, generally as well as

                    the exceptions to 216.2, 216.3.  So, again, you now,

                    as you begin to look at this, you may want to ask why

                                                                          19



                    menus were exempt from the requirements for raised

                    letter and braille, for example.

                         MR. MICHEL:  I just had a basic question.  If all

                    signs are supposed to somewhat be accessible based on

                    the nondiscriminatory aspect of being able to have

                    access to or grant access to the most amount of

                    people, you know, where do we or where do we draw the

                    line -- do we need to allow for a light switch to have

                    braille or is that up to the rail authority to decide

                    if they want to comply with that?

                         MS. MAZZ:  Currently there is no requirement in

                    the ADA standards to provide any kind of sign at a

                    light switch.

                         MR. MICHEL:  Okay.

                         MS. MAZZ:  If you did provide one that said,

                    "Hey, this is your light switch," that would be, you

                    know an informational sign, I think, at best or "flip

                    up to turn on lights."

                         MR. MICHEL:  Isn't the whole point of a sign to

                    give you information in the first place.  So where is

                    the line when providing fully accessible signage?

                         MS. MAZZ:  I think that is something that your

                    committee wants to talk about.  We can tell you where

                    that line gets drawn in buildings, but that doesn't

                    mean you have to respect that for the train.  You can

                                                                          20



                    do something different.

                         MR. MICHEL:  I agree with that.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I think the difference with a

                    train going from a building, there is a certain

                    expectation for things being in certain places and

                    that is almost always the case.  When you open the

                    door you expect the light switch to be just inside the

                    door.  Quite often with the train, because of the

                    spacial situation and the restrictions of where things

                    can be, items are not always where you would expect

                    them to be based on the building.

                         I think that is something we have to consider and

                    I think the authorities have to be given some leeway

                    on how we handle that.

                         I think there needs to be guidance, but,

                    obviously, when we start talking about sleeping cars

                    and things like that, right now those kind of things

                    really only effect Amtrak or a few private operators.

                    We are willing to listen.

                         As I said before, we have done, you know, a lot

                    of -- made a lot of effort to make signs accessible

                    beyond what the requirements are because the

                    requirements are, quite honestly, rather pitiful, I

                    think.

                         But, anyway, we will discuss that more on the

                                                                          21



                    second call for sure.

                         Where I get more concerned is when we look at the

                    architectural requirements, the technical requirements

                    versus the scoping where we require -- we have icons

                    in an attempt to kind of communicate to people who are

                    not reading in English but are used to seeing icons in

                    other parts of the world.

                         We have an icon but we can't have that icon as

                    large as required by the architectural side because we

                    just don't have the space.  But we can have raised

                    letter and braille in the same space.  So we have to

                    decide how to handle that going forward.

                         MS. MAZZ:  So that is a good one to sort of focus

                    on as an example of something that is required in

                    standards.

                         Right now the ADA standards say if you use a

                    pictogram to designate a permanent room or space, then

                    you have to have raised letters in braille that

                    translate the meaning of that pictogram.  You don't

                    have to raise the pictogram because the research that

                    we had access to has indicated that people who are

                    blind have significant difficulty getting the meaning

                    of a picture tactilely.

                         You do, for example, at the women's room if you

                    just label it with the international symbol of women,

                                                                          22



                    you do have to have the equivalent below that says in

                    raised letters and in braille" women."

                         The question -- and there is a requirement for

                    the size of the visual image of that glyph in terms of

                    its background.  You have to have a six-inch vertical

                    background for that glyph.  That is not the raised

                    letter requirement.  That is the visual component.

                         So a good question would be, for the purpose of

                    rail where you are using a lot of different icons:  Is

                    it as necessary to have that glyph be large enough for

                    someone with low vision to read if you provide the

                    raised letters and the braille equivalents?

                         MR. BEATTY:  Maybe some icons are not required to

                    meet the requirements.

                         MS. MAZZ:  So that is a question for you to ask

                    yourselves.  I'm not taking a position.  I'll just

                    suggesting that is a question for you all to consider.

                         MR. BEATTY:  That requirement does not apply to

                    all icons.  They need to know that.

                         MS. MAZZ:  As Paul is pointing out, that

                    requirement only applies where you use the icon to

                    name the space, to designate the space.  You can use

                    an icon or a pictogram such as a no smoking pictogram.

                    That is information about the rules of conduct in the

                    space; it's not the name of the space.  This is not

                                                                          23



                    the no smoking room.  Not the name of the space.  It

                    is not required to have raised letters in braille and

                    it is not required to have the minimum six inch field

                    behind the glyph.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  That is the way I interpreted the

                    technical requirements.  I think there may be

                    situations, again, in the effort to communicate to the

                    broadest number of people possible, we are using

                    icons.  But we are using them on a scale that doesn't

                    match the technical requirements for the icons, but

                    would work for someone maybe who is not speaking

                    English, who cannot even read the sign with good

                    vision.  So, again, I think we will need to work

                    through that to come to the best place.

                         Because I would hate for us to be in a situation

                    where we don't provide an icon because we don't have

                    the space to provide it with the six inch field.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Blair, can you give us an example of

                    an icon you are thinking of?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  With the restroom designation

                    where you have the male or female, we actually have an

                    icon -- because it is a unisex restroom, where there

                    is both, the sign itself can get quite large for the

                    door or for the door post or wherever the sign is

                    going.

                                                                          24



                         The same may be true for a room designation in a

                    sleeping compartment where we may have an icon and a

                    number, but there is no room to make that icon as big

                    as is required.  So we might look at it and go, "Well,

                    if we have to have an icon for a certain size just

                    because we provided it, maybe we don't provide the

                    icon."  That seems like a disservice generally across

                    the broader population to do that.

                         MR. BEATTY:  We can continue that part of the

                    discussion at the next call.  It is important for us

                    to take your questions as it relates to if "I use the

                    ADAAG provisions do I understand what the outcome

                    would be?"  And then later you can evaluate whether

                    the outcome is appropriate.

                         So anymore questions regarding use of ADAAG or

                    the variable signage requirements from ANSI?

                         MS. PACHECO:  I just have a quick question.

                    Again on this issue of the icons, where would we tie

                    in, for instance, if they were using an icon on a

                    touch pad?  I'm thinking, you know, the reading lamp

                    over your seat, especially on planes today, could be

                    on trains next year.  There are a group of things and

                    they are only usable by touch pad.  Those are very

                    small icons.  You are looking at, what, an inch or

                    inch half squared?  What do we do for those?  Is there

                                                                          25



                    a requirement in the ADAAG for those?

                         MS. MAZZ:  There is currently not a requirement

                    in the ADAAG for those.  The ADAAG only addresses

                    those signs that identify permanent rooms and spaces

                    for the braille and raise letter characters and other

                    signs have visual characteristics.  And this is

                    where -- I don't know, Terry, if you were on the line,

                    but this is where the distinction between labels and

                    signs may be getting made.

                         You know, you put an icon on the light switch, I

                    think of that more as a label than a sign, largely the

                    types of signs that are addressed in the ADA

                    standards.

                         But you may want to extend some requirements to

                    those labels for rail vehicles.  And that might make

                    some sense.  Or you might want to develop some

                    different kinds of criteria, given how little real

                    estate there is next to those switches above your head

                    typically on an airplane, but I do think they have

                    them on trains as well.  Maybe you want some other way

                    to communicate which switch you push for what

                    function.  And maybe it doesn't have to be visual.

                    Maybe it can be tactile.  Maybe there can be some

                    other way to do that.

                         I know I myself when I get on an airplane I'm

                                                                          26



                    very reluctant to turn on the light because I

                    typically wind up calling the flight attendant.

                         MS. PACHECO:  So do I.

                         MS. MAZZ:  And then I can't turn the thing off.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I didn't see definitions for labels

                    and signs and so forth.  Is that somewhere in the

                    documents you sent us?

                         MS. MAZZ:  No.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Can we get a definition?

                         MS. MAZZ:  Well, it is what it is.  We look at

                    signs in the broadest -- in the broader sense.  And we

                    specifically tell you that there are essentially two

                    classes of signs:  There is the signs that designate

                    permanent rooms and spaces and then there are the

                    signs that provide information about -- directions to

                    or information about rooms and spaces.

                         So a label on a light switch doesn't do either of

                    those things.

                         MR. PECHT:  And as far as the definition is

                    concerned, basically if there is something in the

                    documents that is not specifically defined in either

                    definition section or in one of the reference

                    standards, we default to the collegiate dictionary

                    definition for that term.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Okay.  Thank you.

                                                                          27



                         <<<:  John, Amtrak.  I don't know if this is the

                    right call to ask the question.  I had questions about

                    requirements for safety seat back cards with braille

                    requirements.

                         MR. PECHT:  Could you explain to me what that is.

                         <<<:  I don't know if you are familiar with any

                    of the Amtrak safety seat back cards, but we do have a

                    lot of information on most of our cards.  And we are

                    looking to have every card have a braille option when

                    needed, but I'm not sure what exactly is required.

                         MR. PECHT:  That is something we would require in

                    the guidelines.  It is a moveable piece of equipment

                    or furniture or something like that, which the

                    guidelines and standards really don't cover.  They

                    cover things that are bolted to the train, part of the

                    train, affixed to the train in some way, not a piece

                    of paper that you put in a seat back.  That would be

                    something that might be covered by the DOT regulations

                    as far as general --

                         MS. MAZZ:  The general requirements for effective

                    communication.

                         MR. PECHT:  Correct.  But not as far as what we

                    are talking about.  We are talking about you take a

                    sign and you stick it on the wall, that is where it

                    will stay.  It is going to be a permanent sign on the

                                                                          28



                    wall.

                         <<<:  Okay.

                         MR. PECHT:  I just want to point out when you

                    start talking about requirements for tactile letters

                    and braille, what needs to go along with that is a

                    consistent location so it can be found.

                         If you are going to put a sign, let's say, for a

                    fire extinguisher 10" off the ground, nobody who is

                    blind is looking for 10" off for a sign.

                         There is either a need if you want something like

                    that to sort of have a location where you can find out

                    where certain things are found in the train that is

                    consistent or you want to tie it to something like a

                    seat or a door or something that that is where it is

                    going to be always, every time you go in every train.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  That brings up a very good point,

                    even with emergency exit signs.  We start to overlap

                    with some of the APDA recommended practices for sign

                    placement for things like exits.  And in some of those

                    cases there is a requirement for low level path

                    marking and way finding elements that are very close

                    to the floor based on the expectation you may have a

                    car filling with smoke and people would be down at

                    that level and need that information.

                         And in those cases, we do provide exit signs with

                                                                          29



                    raised letter and braille.  Except in this case the

                    raised letter is to the scale that is pushed by APDA,

                    which is large, it is pretty darn big.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Typically there is not a problem with

                    larger raised letter.  It is when you try to make them

                    smaller they become unreadable by folks who read

                    raised letters.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  And that is something from a

                    guidance standpoint I think would be very helpful.  If

                    you look at diminishing -- let me think of the word.

                    A diminishing need for the information from a clarity

                    standpoint.  Is there room for lettering to be smaller

                    than the minimum, which the smallest I have seen is

                    half inch.

                         I heard discussion in the past about 3/8, but you

                    start to get into the realm it is not understandable,

                    it is not readable by someone who is reading it

                    tactilely.  I'm not sure there is any room for

                    discussion as it relates to trains, again, because of

                    the space limitation the trains have.  Or if we say if

                    it is a tactile letter it will be the minimum that is

                    already defined because that works and anything

                    smaller doesn't.

                         MS. MAZZ:  In the first meeting that we had, I

                    seriously cautioned you against setting different

                                                                          30



                    standards for the same thing in two different

                    documents.

                         I will reiterate that you would have to have very

                    compelling reasons for a lesser standard in this

                    document or departing from the technical criteria.

                    And those compelling reasons would have to be based on

                    the specific needs of the vehicle or the specific

                    characteristics of the vehicle.  And you would also

                    want to know that you will achieve a meaningful

                    result.

                         So if you, for example, shrink the raised letters

                    down significantly or even some, we would want to know

                    that they are, in fact, usable by people with vision

                    impairments.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  That makes perfect sense.  Going

                    back to what John from Amtrak mentioned about the

                    information and safety cards, again looking at the

                    special differences in trains and just the real estate

                    that is available for signs that would be

                    appropriately sized, there may be some elements that

                    are -- some level of information.  Because, again, a

                    train is a different environment than a building and

                    in a building there are certain expectations of where

                    things are and they almost are always in those places.

                         Once someone is familiar with the train, then it

                                                                          31



                    is quite common.  You know, you sort of think, well,

                    in a train this device is going to generally be in

                    space.

                         But for the sake of familiarization and

                    communicating that to folks, I think there is room --

                    we discussed it internally in the past of relying on,

                    in some cases, braille information cards that help

                    people orient themselves and understand where things

                    are generally in the room and all the other things we

                    communicate for people just traveling on the train so

                    that they get all the same information as everyone

                    else would get in a card that would be visually

                    readable.

                         And I realize that -- again, I will go back to

                    Chris Hart's definition.  We are only talking about

                    the things if you take the car and open the door and

                    shake it, everything that falls out is not part of

                    this committee.  But to a point, there has to be some

                    link so we make sure at the end of the day we do get

                    all the information to people one way or the other.

                         MS. MAZZ:  If you take a look at that scoping

                    provision in 216, you note that, for example, menus,

                    seat row designations and assembly spaces and things

                    like that are expressly exempt from these

                    requirements.

                                                                          32



                         These may be things you may want to scope or you

                    may want to scope them to some other kind of standard,

                    once we haven't contemplated yet.

                         I just put that on the table because I know that

                    menu was already an issue that was brought forward by

                    one of the committee members.  Seat row designations,

                    for example, you know, as you said, if you have a

                    reserved seat, you want to be able to get back to that

                    seat, largely if you left your coat in there.

                         So you may want to take a look at what is covered

                    and what is not covered by the ADA standards and see

                    how that marries up to what you want to cover in some

                    way in trains.  I think starting with scoping is a

                    good way to proceed.

                         What do we want to cover, what do we want to give

                    people access to and, then, secondarily, how do we do

                    it.  In some cases you may be borrowing from the sign

                    standards in the ADA or the sign requirements in ANSI

                    A.117 or you may have another way of communicating the

                    information that is not currently contemplated in the

                    ADA standards.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I think from Amtrak's point of

                    view, we would be most interested from the community's

                    viewpoint what information is most needed.  And I

                    think we will find in some cases we already have taken

                                                                          33



                    steps to provide that information.  There will be

                    other places where we will have to figure out how to

                    do that.

                         So I would be very interested to hear what the

                    community versus the railroads thinks need to be out

                    there.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Maybe that is a homework assignment

                    for everybody, is to go back and develop a list of

                    those things that you want -- you believe should be

                    covered in some way.

                         For the moment I would urge you to put aside

                    whether or not you think you can meet the technical

                    requirements in the ADA.  But those bits of

                    information that you think should, in fact, be

                    conveyed to people who don't see or who have low

                    vision and then come back and see how those lists

                    dovetail each other.

                         Does that sound like something you could do for

                    the next meeting?

                         <<<:  Absolutely.

                         MR. HOFF:  I would like to take a second just to

                    draw on some examples of people -- customers who have

                    expressed interest in knowing information that is only

                    available visually.  For instance -- I know people

                    have talked about this before -- the emergency

                                                                          34



                    evacuation windows, for instance, or how to manually

                    open the doors in case of an emergency.  That

                    operationally you saw obviously is not something that

                    we could possibly provide because of the amount of

                    information that is provided in print form.  There is

                    not enough space to provide it in raised letter

                    braille.

                         But perhaps we can look to provide that

                    information another way.  I think it is -- obviously

                    if we are putting information on the vehicles, on the

                    signs and it is a lot of information, we think it is

                    important enough that everybody should know it.

                    Obviously with the reduced real estate that we have on

                    board, we should be looking for other means to provide

                    that information.

                         I am sorry I am not providing any solutions at

                    this point.  I am just saying the reality is we don't

                    have a lot of real estate to provide raised letter

                    braille sign that could be very important information.

                    If it is important enough for us to put it up there,

                    it is important for everybody to know it.

                         So we should look for other means to provide that

                    information and then concentrate on the areas, if it

                    is simple enough information, that we want everybody

                    to know, then we find the real estate to provide that.

                                                                          35



                         The more complicated stuff, I think we should

                    just push it aside for a second.  Like I said, how to

                    manually open a closed door in an emergency, that is

                    like two or three paragraphs.  That is not going to

                    happen.  We should look -- I don't think this is the

                    forum to do it -- look for other ways to provide the

                    information for the vehicle.  That may be the solution

                    and we may have to come up with new technologies that

                    are available on board.

                         I want to make the point if it is important

                    enough for people to see visually, it is important

                    enough for people to get that information as well.

                         MS. MAZZ:  You may have other signs that gives

                    you a warning, for example, "don't do this."

                         MR. HOFF:  Exactly.  We have pretty important

                    information about how the conductors are pretty much

                    the captains of the ships and there are laws

                    protecting them and there they have rights to do

                    certain things.  We find it important and we put it on

                    every rail car.  But it is only visually.  Maybe we

                    can provide that information through some other means

                    somehow on the vehicle, but maybe through some other

                    technology.  But it is not something we can say, "All

                    right, we will do raised letter braille on that sign

                    too."  We should keep that in the back of our minds to

                                                                          36



                    provide that information.  Because if we think it is

                    important enough to put it up visually, it is

                    important for everybody.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  That is an excellent point.  I

                    think as we move down the path here there are

                    opportunities for those of us on the railroad side to

                    somehow have some consolidation.  Largely those who

                    operate in the same general area, so in some cases

                    where we can have common messages we can benefit by

                    sharing that information back and forth so we are

                    telling passengers in the same way across, regardless

                    of how we do that.

                         One thing we have -- I was just thinking of an

                    example of a door.  It is pretty obvious when you

                    touch the door handle or you see the door how to

                    operate that door.  We don't give instructions on how

                    to operate the door, but we do give a warning not to

                    open that door unless it is an emergency or by a

                    member of a crew.

                         So -- and that message is given in both -- just

                    visual and raised letter and braille because it is

                    critical.

                         MS. MAZZ:  In the end, Blair, I hear you say it

                    is possible if the committee decides some information

                    is just not going to be effectively conveyed using a

                                                                          37



                    permanent installation of something on the train, that

                    they could have a recommendation to your office that

                    that information is important and should be somehow

                    conveyed?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Yes.  And I say that with respect

                    to the Access Board who has given a direction on what

                    our scope is here in the committee.  But, yeah, if it

                    just doesn't make practical sense to be a part of the

                    card, I think the railroads -- we still need have some

                    way of (inaudible) pieces together.

                         MR. MALDARI:  To follow through with what they do

                    for buildings, the signs that are in braille and

                    raised lettering are the ones we know where they are

                    going to be.  So you really need -- if you are going

                    to make a sign in braille, you really have to know

                    where it is so you can find it.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Right.

                         MR. MALDARI:  There are decals all over the place

                    and the only way you know where they are is by seeing

                    them.  You have to be careful.

                         Yes, there is a lot of information out there,

                    unfortunately it is really for the people who can see,

                    otherwise they won't know how to find it.  And opening

                    a door, well, you know, one thing that concerns me is

                    if you have fairly good sight you can see through the

                                                                          38



                    door window and make sure you are not getting yourself

                    in a hazardous condition, if you do open a door in an

                    emergency condition.  But there may be some bad points

                    to that.

                         The other thing that I wanted to get clear was

                    currently now in the regulations that we are talking

                    about for the buildings, if you provide a sign in

                    raised lettering that is not required to be in raised

                    lettering or braille, can it be in one or the other or

                    is there some requirement that whenever you have

                    raised lettering you must have braille?

                         MS. MAZZ:  The requirement is when you are

                    required to have a tactile sign, that tactile sign

                    must have both raised lettering and braille.  But if

                    you are not required to have a tactile sign, it would

                    be my view you could do whatever you want, provided

                    that you comply with the requirements for visual

                    signs, if they apply.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Right.  That make sense.  Like

                    Blair was saying before, if you only have so much

                    space, maybe you can put one or the other.  And if you

                    are not tied into putting both because it is a

                    regulation to have it, then you have the opportunity

                    to provide the information in another means without

                    making a decal that is too big to fit in the space

                                                                          39



                    that you have.

                         MR. WIESMAN:  Can you hear me?  Good.  I was in

                    Japan 20 years ago and I noticed at the top of the

                    staircases on the subway on the handrail they have

                    braille and everybody knows to look at it.  Even

                    though it is not downstairs even.  And there is all

                    kinds of signage for people who can see.  All the

                    information they try to get into that tactile thing on

                    the handrail at the top of the stairs -- and maybe

                    there -- when we are creating a new standard, maybe we

                    could have a location on a train where information

                    that is available to sighted people could all be in

                    one place about evacuation and things like that,

                    things you really want to get the message across.  And

                    people would just know you look in this place because

                    that would become the practice, which is what

                    happened, they told us, in Japan.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Except when they push on those stairs

                    I don't think you have a whole lot of time to read.

                         <<<:  Good point.

                         <<<:  Other than that, though, it is a great

                    idea.

                         <<<:  Maybe put it at the bottom of the stairs.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Actually, Coco Reign in Boston

                    developed a system she puts the braille essentially

                                                                          40



                    upside down on the underside of a handrail.  As people

                    go through a museum or some other site, they read the

                    braille as they go along.  It is pretty cool.

                         MR. WETHERELL:  I would think if we do something

                    on a subway, I like the idea of having a location.  If

                    there are evacuation or emergency instructions, I

                    would be a proponent for it being in the same

                    location.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Makes sense.

                         So it looks like a variety of different types of

                    things that can get communicated.  You have warnings,

                    you have rules of conduct, you have operational

                    instructions, you have way finding information, such

                    as exit and maybe seat and row, and you have

                    information that you convey visually through things

                    like menus and other types of signs, if you will.

                         Can we try and organize that a bit?  I think

                    maybe your issues list provides some of that

                    organization, doesn't it, Paul?

                         MR. BEATTY:  Some.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yeah.

                         MR. PECHT:  Actually that is what I was going to

                    add as part of your homework assignment.  In addition

                    to listing the kind of information you want put out on

                    a train, try to categorize it into what type of sign.

                                                                          41



                    If it is something you want to cover or not.

                         In other words, maybe designs that are

                    specifically geared toward train personnel can be

                    exempt.  In other words, this is a hatchway to the

                    hydraulic system.  The passengers don't need to worry

                    about that.

                         Or Marsha talked about labels.  Do you want to

                    cover labels?  Do you not want to cover label?  Do you

                    want to define what a label is?  Those kinds of

                    things.  If you want to think about categorizing the

                    different type of sign and how you want them put out.

                         MS. MAZZ:  I don't think that UL label on the

                    fire extinguisher has to be raised letter in braille.

                    But if you have operating instructions on the fire

                    extinguisher, there might be a necessity to convey how

                    to operate the fire extinguisher to someone who

                    doesn't see.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  We also take in the consideration

                    the variable message signs we were talking about

                    earlier.  That could be used in multiple situations.

                    So we should maybe consider that as well.

                         MS. MAZZ:  I will point out that VMS criteria is

                    only visual criteria.  It is for people who have low

                    vision.  There is nothing in the VMS criteria that

                    conveys that information tactilely or audibly for

                                                                          42



                    people who do not see at all.

                         So it is an -- it is the electronic equivalent to

                    the visual signs criteria in 703.

                         MR. HOFF:  And it is something that we should

                    consider.  I think we talked about considering that,

                    obviously, is the converse of providing visual

                    equivalence to the audible announcement is the

                    converse of that, providing the audible announcement

                    as the equivalent to the visual.

                         So where we can, where we think it is important

                    enough to make an audible announcement, we should do

                    that, obviously.  We are talking about something

                    different than the visual signs that are on decals all

                    throughout our vehicles.  But certainly any type of

                    announcement -- I'm sorry.  Any type of visual

                    announcement obviously should be broadcast audibly.  I

                    don't think that is a big deal.  That is not currently

                    written, as I understand it, in the ADAAG, but maybe

                    it should be.

                         MS. MAZZ:  You're right.  And, you know, to the

                    extent that there is also an underlying requirement

                    for effective communication, I think that, you know,

                    we have had to rely on that for the converse.

                         MR. HOFF:  And certainly we understand that

                    because the public address systems, the audible

                                                                          43



                    announcements have been around forever.  We have had

                    flip-flop for some time, but certainly nothing like we

                    have today with the visual equivalent to the public

                    address system.  That is why that was a regulation,

                    obviously, that it was always assumed we had a public

                    address, an audible announcement for everything.   But

                    now we are getting -- the visuals are so prevalent in

                    providing such other messages, that I think we need

                    the converse.  So at least in the vehicle aspect we

                    should consider doing that, you know, explicitly

                    saying we provide the audible equipment to the visual

                    signs as well.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Along with that our conductors in

                    giving their audible message will refer people to the

                    seat back instruction card that is specific to the

                    vehicle they are in, because it goes into more detail

                    about what to do in emergencies.  And post 09/11 there

                    is information that our security folks have added and

                    sort of heaped upon the card so it does more than it

                    was originally intended to.

                         And that is information, again, that may not be

                    practical at all to try to put in a central location.

                         To give you some background, at one time we had

                    the emergency exit instructions for our cars occur

                    typically in one or two places in the car at each end.

                                                                          44



                    What we saw the folks who sat close to the sign,

                    within a few rows, actually read the sign and everyone

                    else didn't.

                         That was part of what drove us to the seat back

                    information card, similar what you find on an

                    airliner.  That may not be practical for a lot of

                    transit agencies because the things would probably

                    walk like they have legs.

                         When we start looking at this information, again,

                    we have to make sure that we -- there is some

                    obviously could be at central locations and others

                    that need to be distributed.  So, again, we get as

                    much appropriate information and critical information

                    to everyone that is on the train.

                         <<<:  Just build off of that as far as

                    brainstorming goes, I like it is decentralized.  In

                    some cases it depends on the situation, perhaps or the

                    ability to provide real estate to provide the sign.

                    More like what if we had a phone jack nearby or at

                    every seat there was a phone jack and you can plug in

                    your dollar store ear plugs and scroll through some of

                    the information provided.  Or make it a performance

                    standard; if you don't have phone jacks available,

                    that the crew member is available to at least give you

                    the menu of things that are posted up.  And if you

                                                                          45



                    needed more information, happy to describe those

                    things for you.  Just a couple of things that we can

                    probably do to make sure everybody gets that

                    information.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I know everyone has seen the

                    greeting card that you open up and it sings or does

                    something.  We actually had cards that were

                    prerecorded and told you everything that was in the

                    visual passenger safety card.  Read off all that

                    information and it was in a controlled common voice.

                    And that was -- the problem with that is can someone

                    hear that over all the noise in a train.  But that was

                    before everyone had, you know, earbuds to carry along

                    with them.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Have we exhausted ourselves?

                         Does anyone have any specific questions about the

                    scoping or technical criteria that is in the ADA

                    standards?

                         <<<:  Are we going to talk about the variable

                    message signs and the ICC standard?

                         MS. MAZZ:  Sure, if you want to.

                         <<<:  Can we just briefly go over what is in the

                    ICC standard?  Even though I looked through it.  It is

                    fairly new to me.  My biggest concern is making

                    sure -- we brought this up in one of our issues list

                                                                          46



                    to make sure that we can or that we do provide the

                    information in the most legible, readable formats

                    possible, given the new technologies that are

                    available to us.  Well, before the original ADAAG was

                    written, signs were your basic LED compaction rate.

                    Was very widely spaced and the angle you see it is

                    small.

                         I would like to know more what the regulation

                    state as the technical criteria in stroke width to

                    height ratio and whether or not it addresses certain

                    technologies over others.

                         MS. MAZZ:  The provisions of the ANSI standard up

                    to Section 703.7 are very, very similar to the ADA

                    standards.

                         We only provided them because Section 703.7,

                    variable message signs, refers back to some of those

                    sections, or at least is based on some of those

                    sections.

                         Basically what the variable message section does

                    is it divides variable message signs into high

                    resolution and low resolution signs.  Doesn't tell you

                    that you have to provide one or the other.  It just

                    simply divides them into two different groups and then

                    applies different technical criteria to those two

                    groups of signs.  Because the high resolution signs

                                                                          47



                    can, obviously, perform better than the low resolution

                    signs overall.

                         There are some -- and all of those technical

                    criteria basically take you back to the requirements

                    in the standards for case and style and character

                    height and the like.

                         There is also in here -- and I'm trying to find

                    it as I talk.  There is a requirement, I think, some

                    requirements applicable to the protective covering on

                    those kinds of signs, the brightness, which is not a

                    term used on regular signs.  And then rate of change,

                    which essentially means, you know, how quickly it

                    moves or scrolls.  Those are unique to the VMS

                    criteria.

                         Is there something else you want to add there,

                    Jim?

                         MR. PECHT:  I mean the ANSI committee, like

                    Marsha was saying.  They look at high resolution

                    signs, which is what you find in like a plasma

                    television or something like that.

                         And assume that those were of such high

                    resolution that they can be equivalent to the print

                    size in 703 and that is what they require.  When it

                    gets to the low resolution where they talk about the

                    height being square from 7 to 16 pixels and

                                                                          48



                    specifically with regard to stroke width and, like

                    Marsha says, other information with regard to

                    protective covering and the scrolling.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Glenn, do you know whether the signs

                    in Metro here in Washington are high res or low res

                    signs?

                         MR. PECHT:  They are low res.

                         MR. MILLIS:  I'm not going to disagree with him

                    because I don't know the answer to that.  I'm not the

                    sign expert at Metro.

                         <<<:  One of the things we should probably

                    consider is whether or not we are going to in the

                    scoping provisions require high res or low res

                    depending on the type of signs or whether everything

                    should be high res.  Those are some of the things we

                    should think about, you think?

                         MS. MAZZ:  You have many options.  One might be

                    to simply say, "If you provide a variable message sign

                    it has to conform to these requirements."  Start with

                    that.  Because right now there is nothing in the ADA

                    standards that specifically applies to those types of

                    signs because they were not used at the time the ADA

                    standards were originally written.  At least that.

                         You might also want to think about where you

                    think it is appropriate to encourage the use.  Not

                                                                          49



                    necessarily require the use of variable message signs,

                    but they are going to be used.  They are already used,

                    to some degree, on buses --

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  (Static Noise) This is not really

                    signage, but it could be in most cases it is a monitor

                    you can pull up all kinds of information on.  But I

                    guess it could be signs as well.

                         MS. MAZZ:  On buses, for example, your stop

                    request sign is very often a variable message sign.

                    On rail cars here in Washington, you have a variable

                    message sign that tells you, I think, whether it is a

                    green, red, orange or blue train.  I don't know it

                    tells you much else at the moment.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Those signs are supposed to tell you

                    what station stop and what side of the car to get off

                    on.  They don't use them.  It is capable of that but

                    it is not being used.  In New York they have variable

                    message signs on New York City subways which tells you

                    what station you are in and where you are going and

                    where you came from.  So there are all kinds of

                    possibilities for rail cards.

                         MR. MILLIS:  I'm not sure that is correct but I

                    can check on that and get back to the committee.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I'm sorry.  Which part is not

                    correct?

                                                                          50



                         MR. MILLIS:  Are we talking about the signs on

                    the side and inside the cars?

                         <<<:  Both.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Inside the car.

                         <<<:  Oh, inside the cars.  Thank you.

                         MR. CAPON:  I have seen the station indicators

                    working on Metro.  I don't recall seeing indication of

                    what side to get off on.  Interior, some of the cars

                    do work.

                         MR. WETHERELL:  Sorry.  I had to step out.  Are

                    we talking about indicating what side the doors will

                    open on?

                         <<<:  The information we present in our subway

                    cars.  I know there are some countries that do -- I

                    think Japan is one of them that indicate what side the

                    doors are going to open on.

                         Basically what we do when we are doing a car

                    design, we look at what the needs of our particular

                    passengers are.  You know, with our passengers, as far

                    as their needs.  We have never come up with the fact

                    that they needed to know what sides the doors are

                    going to be opening on.

                         Now, obviously, if somebody is riding and they

                    are unable themselves to tell which side it is on, I

                    can see that being an issue.  But we do have lights

                                                                          51



                    that indicate what doors are opening.

                         Obviously, somebody with vision -- somebody that

                    is disabled and -- I don't know if we ever had a

                    problem with it.  It is certain something we can

                    certain look into.

                         MR. MILLIS:  On our trains we do have lights that

                    light up.  And people can also see the door opening

                    and the train operators do announce the name of the

                    station and the door opening on the left and right

                    side.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  When I have ridden, rode -- my

                    English is not working right now.  But when I have

                    been on the Metro and the signs do work what it will

                    say is "the station is Metro Center."  Then there are

                    little arrows pointing on which side of the car you

                    should get off on.  I don't know if that is absolutely

                    necessary.  Because it shows up before you get to the

                    station stop, I find it really helpful, you know.  It

                    is just nice to know if I have to go through a lot of

                    people, which side of the car I need to get to.

                         One thing I also found about Metro, when you look

                    out the window, it is really dark and you can't see.

                    Somebody with a hearing loss, like myself, sees a

                    visual sign like that.  I'm thrilled.  I'm really

                    happy.  I not only know which stop I'm in, I know

                                                                          52



                    which side to exit, and I don't have to look out the

                    dim windows before I get there.

                         MS. MAZZ:  That information is useful to people

                    who don't see well or don't see at all because with

                    very few exceptions, the side of the car that the

                    doors open on relates to whether or not you are

                    exiting on to a side island platform or a center

                    island platform.  And that is pretty critical

                    information for someone who doesn't see well.

                         <<<:  This is Josh at Talgo.  I don't think there

                    is any technical challenge here, the light rail system

                    in Dallas and Seattle have signs that indicate the

                    next station and what side to get off.

                         MR. SHIOTANI:  I think the newer cars have the

                    capability.  The older cars didn't have the technology

                    and the newest cars do have the technology and I

                    expect in Metro's newest, newest cars, which we will

                    have down the road, will have everything.

                         MR. MILLIS:  That is very correct.  One of the

                    things you don't see is the technology on our older

                    cars.  We have it on the 6000 cars, unfortunately when

                    you marry a 6000 car with an older car, is there in

                    one place and not the other.  The whole car needs to

                    be a 6000 car for it to work.  So that is a detraction

                    from the system.

                                                                          53



                         I don't disagree it is useful to have more

                    information telling you which side of the car the

                    doors are opening.  What I am suggesting is that there

                    are signals and cues right now in the system, both

                    visual and audio, at least in our newer equipment to

                    tell you what side of the car the door is opening on.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Unfortunately, especially with

                    Metro, while that is in place, it is not in place

                    audibly more than probably, I would estimate, I never

                    actually done numbers on it, not more than above

                    40 percent of the time in a manner in which people can

                    actually understand it, if it is being broadcast at

                    all by the drivers.

                         On most of -- on an awful lot, those messages are

                    not being done audibly or not being done well enough.

                         MR. MILLIS:  I don't mean to be argumentative and

                    I am not.  I have looked at our latest consumer

                    surveys.  You are absolutely right.  Sometimes it is

                    hard to hear things with car noise, train noise,

                    people noise and other announcements in the station

                    and whatnot.  But our consumer surveys are telling us

                    people are hearing those announcements at least

                    90 percent of the time.  That is a long ways to

                    100 percent.  I understand what you're saying.

                         MS. PACHECO:  The other issue it is more

                                                                          54



                    noticeable to someone who is blind or has low vision

                    who can't see the station they are coming to or can't

                    read the signs in the station.  Those are the onces

                    who are noticing it more than the average passenger.

                         MR. HOFF:  This issue is very similar to bus

                    experience.  The requirement was always there from day

                    one to provide on board announcements to help people

                    who cannot orient themselves by simply looking out the

                    window.  This is similar to that, but probably less

                    critical.  The performance standard now on buses or it

                    is in the new regulations yet to be adopted is to have

                    automated systems on board to do the announcements and

                    takes out the human factor.  Usually what comes with

                    that is usually a better system when you do something

                    automatically and it is prerecorded, you don't have

                    some of the difficulties you have with making those

                    announcements manually each time with being too close

                    to the microphone, what have you.

                         Perhaps we have a requirement that the

                    announcements been made -- whatever announcements we

                    do have announcements that we think are critical that

                    we make them to be automated, very much like on the

                    bus side.

                         MS. PACHECO:  I think that is something

                    definitely worth looking at.

                                                                          55



                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  It is really obvious when we

                    start talking about some of these things the critical

                    differences between some of the more mass transit

                    situations and what we would find in long haul trains.

                         Typically in overnight trains we will have at a

                    certain time of the evening the lights are turned

                    down, announcements, unless they are emergency

                    announcements, are not broadcast in the sleeping car,

                    in some cases even in the coaches because the car

                    attendant is supposed to make sure that they know

                    exactly where you are getting off.  They have taken

                    care of that at the front end of the trip and they

                    will get you and make sure you get off at the right

                    place.

                         If that doesn't happen, we have what we call a

                    "carry-by".  For any conductor or train person it is

                    really bad, because we have a really expensive cab

                    ride for that individual back home again.  I just want

                    to make sure that we keep in mind that some of these

                    messages are very critical to certain operations and

                    maybe even within certain aspects of the Amtrak

                    operation, but in other areas like long haul trains,

                    long distance, overnight train, that may not be at all

                    appropriate because we have a system in place that

                    takes care of that, yet doesn't wake people up in the

                                                                          56



                    middle of the night or wake up everyone in the middle

                    of the night.

                         MR. CAPON:  Blair, I'm pretty sure the rule you

                    described for the sleeping car does apply across the

                    board for overnight coaches.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  That is what I thought.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I think maybe we should think along

                    the lines it is not so much requiring that be provided

                    but when it is provided.  For example, when it is

                    provided visually it should also be auditory, when it

                    is auditory it should also be visual when we are

                    talking about those messaging boards, electronic

                    messaging boards.

                         I don't know even if -- I don't know that we

                    could say that it should be required in every

                    situation or could we?  Am I wrong about that?

                         MR. PECHT:  That would be up to the committee to

                    pick and choose which messages they want to have in

                    what format.

                         I think that is part of the thing we want you to

                    go home and do homework about is sort of categorizing

                    what you think is really important and what you think

                    is sort of important, what you think maybe we don't

                    need to have that in a certain format.

                         Obviously stop announcements, upcoming stops are

                                                                          57



                    important, obviously.  Emergency communication --

                    evacuation communication are probably going to be

                    pretty high up on the list.  A commercial for some

                    product, probably not.  So those are the kind of

                    things you can look at.

                         Also we have given you the sort of background of

                    what is required in the buildings and the built

                    environment.  You have to take that and say, "Okay, do

                    we apply that in the train environment or do we modify

                    it?"

                         In other words, for example, you have

                    requirements for variable message signs that character

                    height goes all the way up to over 4-inches but that

                    is when you have a horizontal viewing distance of

                    greater than 20 feet.  So perhaps you would rather

                    have 2-inches as your maximum in which case you may

                    want to say these signs have to be provided so that

                    they are viewed from 10 feet.  So that would require

                    more signs in the car, rather than one or two.  Maybe

                    that would require three.  That is something you can

                    decide to tinker with and sort of modify based on the

                    train environment.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  From a scoping standpoint, I'm

                    curious how will we reconcile requirements of the FRA

                    for emergency evacuations and those kind of things,

                                                                          58



                    Part 238 and 49 CFR, and also any recommended

                    practices in APNA against what we might think about in

                    this committee?  Is there a plan in the Access Board

                    or between the Access Board and the FRA to try to

                    recognize those sort of things?

                         MR. BEATTY:  We are hoping one of the benefits of

                    the Advisory Committee is you will identify signs that

                    are required by other types of regulations you are

                    subject to that we weren't even aware of.

                         And once we have a better idea of everything that

                    comes into play, we can make a decision on how or if

                    we get involved.

                         This is my opinion, but it is not necessarily the

                    staff's opinion here or the group.  I think, in my

                    opinion, we need to sort of focus things down.  We

                    have had a good discussion, but we were talking about

                    a lot of communication issue.  I think we need to

                    start first with maybe answering two questions.  If I

                    provide a fixed sign, regardless whether the sign is

                    something I personally want to put up or it is

                    required by some other regulation that you are subject

                    to.  But if I provide a fixed sign, what does it have

                    to comply with in terms of character proportion,

                    character size and does that sign have to have some

                    sort of tactile.

                                                                          59



                         So if I am Joe Smoh signage company and I have a

                    project for XYZ transit agency and they are hiring me

                    to put up signs, I know exactly what those signs have

                    to be.

                         Now, realizing there are issues that come that we

                    will have to address beyond that, if certain signs

                    can't be made to meet certain access requirements, do

                    I need to do something else.  I suggest we cross that

                    bridge after we settle the issue about if I provide a

                    fixed sign, what does it need to comply with in terms

                    of using maybe a starting point the ADAAG technical

                    provisions --

                         MS. MAZZ:  Absolutely using the ADAAG technical

                    provisions.  Again, we don't want you to just make up

                    criteria.  Those criteria have to have some basis and

                    have to be validated in some way.  So start with the

                    ADAAG criteria.

                         If you, for some reason, feel the unique feature

                    of a train makes it impossible or difficult to comply

                    with those criteria, then you may want to look for

                    different ways of achieving the same goal, which may

                    be through some other means.  It may be, for example,

                    to recommend that that information be included in some

                    kind of briefing.  But that would not be part of the

                    standards.  It would be a recommendation to DOT to

                                                                          60



                    include requirements somewhere in their documents for

                    something that is not a fixed, built-in solution.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Along that that, I would like to

                    suggest, Paul, there are activities on trains or

                    transportation that are very different from buildings

                    because buildings don't move.  I think we already

                    talked about that as part of the homework, if people

                    can come and bring specific items that need to be

                    addressed that the information needs to be there

                    because it is a train and not a building.  It is a

                    different kind of information and a different

                    activity, then we can take that and say we have to

                    have a sign that describes this activity or warns

                    someone about this condition.  Then we can take the

                    ADAAG requirements and put that sign into it and see

                    what it produces.  And then if there is a problem we

                    can figure out how to solve the problem because the

                    sign is too big or whatever.

                         But, for me, from a provider standpoint, I'm

                    really looking at what people need or what people

                    perceive that they need to negotiate within the train

                    that may not be there today.

                         MR. BEATTY:  I guess what I'm trying to do is get

                    us a little more focused at the second call.  I think

                    that if we can evaluate certain signs using ADAAG

                                                                          61



                    technical provisions and then decide what doesn't fit,

                    we don't necessarily have to come to a conclusion.  We

                    just say this particular sign doesn't fit.

                         Now, we either have a good reason to modify how

                    ADAAG would apply or we later in a separate call

                    discuss, okay, this particular sign, yeah, under ADAAG

                    would require to meet these certain requirements but

                    we don't think it is a good fit therefore under

                    another call what are alternatives that could be

                    recommended to communicate the same information.

                         The same way in terms if you provide a variable

                    message sign, not so much what information needs to be

                    on the sign, but are you comfortable with the ICC and

                    co-council provisions that address variable message

                    signs?  If you provide a variable message sign it is

                    it appropriate?  Then we have a separate discussion on

                    what canned information needs to be broadcast on a

                    variable message sign.  That is later.

                         Right now if you provide a variable message sign,

                    what does it have to comply with technically wise.

                         So would that help us boil down what we focus in

                    on the second call?  I mean this is just a question to

                    you all and to my colleagues here.  We are sort of

                    brainstorming how can we using conference calls

                    effectively to allow you to make real progress on

                                                                          62



                    identifying issues.

                         And since we have to speak over the phone and use

                    CART, obviously there is some communication

                    difficulties for a lot of us.  So I'm proposing

                    something that other people can counter-propose.  We

                    have about 20 more minutes in the call.

                         Any comments to that?

                         MS. MAZZ:  I think we already suggested that

                    people develop their own lists.  And Jim further

                    suggested that they try and organize those lists

                    according to various types of signs.  And Jim just

                    slipped me a note and said should we ask them to send

                    the list to us before the next call.  That would be

                    very helpful because we can compile it and reorganize

                    it because whatever categories you put things into we

                    can homogenize them so they all fit in the appropriate

                    categories.  Some people might use the term "warnings"

                    and somebody might use the term "notices" to mean the

                    same thing.  But we can spend some time organizing

                    that for you and send it back out to before your next

                    call.

                         And I would suggest that you also look at your

                    issues list because it begins to do that in terms of

                    types of signs.

                         In terms of looking at the ADA requirements,

                                                                          63



                    again, unless you have a basis for inventing new

                    requirements, you want to be careful about that.  But

                    you may decide that the ADA requirements don't work

                    well for something.  For example, someone has already

                    suggested, well, would it be okay to just do braille

                    or just do raised letters.

                         I think in some circumstances that may be

                    something that you want to contemplate, if real estate

                    is not available.  But I think that would be a

                    preferable way to go over, well, we are going to play

                    with the size requirements on tactile letters, for

                    example, and let them go down to a quarter inch or a

                    half inch, since 5/8-inch is the reasonable size

                    deemed to be readable, unless you have a very good

                    reason going below that and you know it will work.

                         MR. BEATTY:  When do we want the homework/input

                    provided to us?  Thirteenth is our next call, which is

                    Thursday.  So close of business Tuesday.  So if you

                    can provide it to the RVAAC email address by close of

                    business Tuesday we hope to do something and send it

                    out to you.  The latest would probably be the morning

                    of the conference call, which is the 13th.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I can imagine what an Amtrak car

                    looks like, but chances are I'm not going to be on one

                    between now and next Tuesday, although I might, but

                                                                          64



                    you never know.  And I know I could be on a Metro.

                         I'm happy to try to provide you a list and -- I

                    can do what I can and I would be willing to put in as

                    much information as I can.  The other thing for me I'm

                    thinking what Marsha is saying and I have to believe

                    that people put a lot of thought into the size of how

                    these letters should be displayed.  I have no

                    expertise in this area, none, zero, so I can't really

                    help you on that end and saying well it should be -- I

                    know the folks at Amtrak can say, "I have this much

                    space if you want it here."

                         I'm struggling with how I can be most helpful

                    here, I guess is what I'm saying.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Lise, you can be helpful in imaging

                    the type of things that are visual on a train and

                    developing a list of what types of things you think

                    can be communicating to people with vision impairment

                    or hearing impairments, and if you can imagine any

                    types of exceptions to that rule.

                         For example, Jim suggested in there a sign

                    targeted strictly to employees.  Maybe that sign

                    should and could be exempt from the requirements.  You

                    may think about what types of communications you

                    typically miss now when you are on vehicles of any

                    kind.  What do you suspect is not getting through and

                                                                          65



                    ask yourself why.  That might help.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I can do that.  And I guess the

                    point is everybody takes it from their own perspective

                    and I might not get everything, but somebody else will

                    fill in the gaps that I don't see.  So that is what we

                    are looking at.

                         MS. MAZZ:  That is why we wanted to put it in one

                    compiled list.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Right.

                         MS. MAZZ:  And try to give people an opportunity

                    to try and do that.

                         We have to take public comment before we break

                    and we only have 10 minutes left.

                         Can we do that now or does somebody have

                    something they want to say beforehand?

                         MR. BEATTY:  I think when we are thinking of

                    public comment, for those not participating in the

                    committee who may be listening to this call, give you

                    an opportunity to speak, as opposed to those who have

                    been involved in the committee work and have been

                    attending the meetings.

                         So if there is anybody out there that meets that

                    criteria, please identify yourself.  First of all, I

                    guess it would be nice to know how many people are

                    throughout.  Is there anybody?

                                                                          66



                         MS. BUNALES:  All the lines are open right now.

                    There are 23 people on the call right now.  And all I

                    see are phone numbers.  I don't have any other --

                         MS. MAZZ:  So if anybody who is a member of the

                    public would like to share some thoughts with the

                    committee, speak now.  Going, going, gone.  Okay.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Can I ask a process question?  Will

                    you have either a summary or the CART available for us

                    to take a look at?

                         MR. BEATTY:  We can make the CART available.  I

                    guess it is a question of the turnaround time.

                    Generally the CART person does a little bit of

                    clean-up before they send it to me and then I would

                    put it like before in the drop box, since I'm having

                    problems at regulations.gov.  I think everybody can

                    use the drop box except, for one person, Frank.

                         So at this point I will try and get it out to

                    you, but we can't promise because we have such a short

                    turnaround between this call and the next that you

                    would get it with much time in advance of the next

                    call or the deadline to provide your homework.  So we

                    will do what we can do.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Okay.  Thank you.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Does that conclude our meeting?  Thank

                    you all.

                                                                          67



                         MR. BEATTY:  Remember everybody, February 13 is

                    our next call at 1:00 to 3:00 eastern time but most of

                    you are probably turned off.