1 U.S. Department of Energy 2 3 4 5 6 Test Procedure ProposedRule for 7 Miscellaneous Refrigeration Products Meeting 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 10:04 a.m. to 2:36 p.m. Thursday, January 8, 2015 1000 IndependenceAvenue, S.W. Room 8E-089 Washington, D.C. 20585

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 11 APPEARANCES 2 3 DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions, Inc. 4 JOSEPH HAGERMAN, DOE s PETER COCHRAN, DOE 6 ERIC STAS, DOE 7 MICHAEL KIDO, DOE 8 ABIGAIL CHINGOS, Office of Enforcement, DOE 9 TROY WATSON, Navigant 10 DETLEF WESTPHALEN, Navigant 11 JUDITH REICH, Navigant 12 SRIRAM GOPAL, AHAM 13 STEPHEN B. LEYBOURN, AHAM 14 JOSEPH C. FONTECCHIO, TrueManufacturing 1s CHARLES HON, TrueManufacturing 16 SCOTT YOUNG, Lawrence BerkleyNational Laboratory 17 NATE MOUW, Whirlpool 18 ESTER SZTEIN, The National Academies 19 20 21 22 OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 21 WEBINAR ATTENDEES: 2 3 PRITHVI ACHARYA, Navigant 4 LAURA BARHYDT, DOE s BILL BROWN, GE Appliances 6 BRIAN BUYNACEK, Emerson 7 MICHELE CROCIANI, Indel B 8 MARK DRAKE, ElectroluxMajor Appliances 9 PAUL GRIFFIN, Panasonic 10 DAVID HALL, ElectroluxMajor Appliances 11 KELLEY KLINE, GE Appliances 12 SAMUEL LEVINSON, ICF International 13 CHRISTOPHER LIBBEY, Austin, TX 14 JOANNA MAUER I ASAP 1s EVAMILAKOWSKI, Ministry of Energy 16 RENATA MORTAZAVI, NRCan 17 JOHN MYERS, Manitowoc Foodservice 18 RAQUEL NETO, Navigant 19 JOSEPH PACELLA, Consumer Reports 20 TRAVIS PERKINS, Whirlpool 21 MORIAM RAJI I UL 22 PHILLIP STEPHENS, PacificNorthwest National OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 31 Laboratory 2 WEBINAR ATTENDEES: (Cont'd) 3 ANDREW SULLIVAN, TheVetta Group 4 WILLIAMVIETH, Navigant s MAX WILBAND, LG Electronics 6 ROLAND MARCINIAK, U-Line 7 LINDAWILSON, New York, NY 8 LOU HRKTMAN, Energy &Commerce 9 ROBERT McARVER, AHAM 10 JOHNNY MILLER, VikingRange, LLC 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 41 P R0 C E E D I N G

## s 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's begin. Please take 3 your seats. 4 Goodmorning, everyone. Welcome. And 5 happynewyear. This is the Test Procedures for 6 Miscellaneous Consumer Refrigeration Products 7 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking Meeting. Today is s January 8th, 2015, here in the Forrestal Building 9 inWashington, D.C. 10 My name is Doug Brookman, Public 11 Solutions, from Baltimore. Nice to seeyou all 12 this morning. We're going to start with 13 welcoming remarks from Joe Hagerman. 14 MR. HAGERMAN: So, I'mJoe Hagermanwith 1s Department of Energy. I justwant to saywelcome 16 to DOE on one of the coldest days. We'll try to 17 keep this roomwarm for everybody. Thankyou for 1s coming out, of course. This is a really 19 important activity area for us. We really 20 appreciate hearingyour thoughts and your 21 comments about this new test procedure, and then 22 tomorrow about the standards. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 56

1 So, let's have a reallygood, 2 constructive discussion, andwe really appreciate 3 your comments, andwe want to hear fromyou. And 4 if you're on theWebinar, we hope that you'll s send comments or somehowwe canhave access to 6 what you're thinking. 7 So, thankyou. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou, Joe. 9 We always startwith introductions. I'll 10 start tomy immediate left. You can get used to 11 turning thesemicrophones on and off. Please say 12 your name and organizational affiliation. 13 MR. FONTECCHIO: Goodmorning. Joseph 14 Fontecchiowith TrueManufacturing. 15 MR. HON: CharlieHon, True 16 Manufacturing. 17 MR. MOUW: NathanMouw, Whirlpool 18 Corporation. 19 MR. LEYBOURN: SteveLeybourn, withAHAM. 20 MR. GOPAL: SriramGopal, withAHAM. 21 MR. YOUNG: Scott Young, Lawrence Berkley 22 National Laboratory. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 

### MS. REICH: JudithReich, fromNavigant 2 

### Consulting. 3 

### MR. WATSON: TroyWatson, fromNavigant 4 

### Consulting. 5 

### MR. WESTPHALEN: DetlefWestphalen, 6 

### Navigant Consulting. 7 

### MR. COCHRAN: Pete Cochran, DOE. 8 

### MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE, filling in 9 

### temporarily for Michael Kido, who is a victimof 10 

### themetro. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Joehas introduced 12 

### himself. 13 

### Wouldyou introduceyourself, please? 14 

### MS. CHINGOS: Oh, yes. Abigail Chingos 1s 

### from the Office of Enforcement, DOE. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou. Okay. 17 

### Well, all of you have received a packet 1s 

### of information, I hope

-- did everyone get one? 19 

### which is the PowerPoint slides that we will be 20 

### referring to as we go through this material 21 

### today. 22 

### Ifyou look at page 3, you can see our OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 78

1 agenda. Immediately following this overview, 2 there's an opportunity for stakeholders tomake 3 openingremarks, brief summary statements, here 4 at the outset about issues that matter to you. s Following that, we'll plowright into the 6 content in this packet, RegulatoryHistory; 7 following that, Products Coveredby the Proposal; 8 and following that, Test ProcedureAmendments. 9 We'll take a breakround about lunchtime 10 or so, 12:00-12:30. And thenwhenwe return from 11 thebreak, you can see it's listedCompliance 12 with Other EPCA Requirements. At the end of the 13 day, yet another opportunity for anyone that 14 wants tomake closing remarks, raise any 1s additional issues that haven't been covered 16 sufficiently at this point. 11 If you referback to slidenumber 2, we'd 18 ask individuals, please, ifyouwould, speak one 19 at a time. Please sayyour name for the record 20 each timeyou speak. Therewill be a complete 21 transcript of this meeting. Be concise; share 22 the airtime. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 Ifyou can keep the focus here. If your 2 cellphones are not on silent mode, please turn 3 them on silentmode and limit sidebar 4 conversations. Everybodyhas already gottenused s to turning thesemicrophones on and off. 6 TheWebinar participants, we welcomeyou. 7 The Department of Energy is tryinghard to make 8 thesemeetings totally accessible to all via the 9 Web. If youwould keep yourphones onmute and 10 raiseyourhand in the softwareprovided to be 11 recognized to speak. Typically, that's been 12 working recently, that we canhearyou here in 13 the room. So, we welcome your participation in 14 this meeting today. 15 One other reminder, that the Department 16 encourages everyone, andparticularly those that 11 are joining themeeting via theWeb, to submit 18 written comments after thepublicmeeting. 19 That's how the Department keeps track of all the 20 information that comes out during the course of 21 themeeting today. 22 So, I'm looking over to the Purpose of OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 910

1 the Public Meeting, to Joe Hagerman. 2 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. This is Joe 3 Hagerman, DOE. 4 This is pretty straightforward. So the s purpose of the publicmeeting today is to 6 present, review, discuss DOE's proposed test 7 procedures for miscellaneous refrigeration, which s includes cooled cabinets, non-compressor g refrigerators, hybrid refrigerationproducts, 10 whichwe need to go through, and icemakers. 11 We, of course, invite comments on the 12 notice of proposedrule document, and todaywe're 13 also going to discuss the next steps in the 14 rulemaking. And I'll go through the historyof 1s the rule here in a second. 16 We, of course, inviteparticipants to 17 write summary comments here today, and then also 1s as they come up in the course of the regulation. 19 So, next slide? Here. I'm sorry. We're 20 not -- 21 (Slide.) 22 MR. HAGERMAN: We haven't been advancing. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337611

1 (Pause.) 2 MR. HAGERMAN: So, the steps in the test 3 procedure rulemaking, we published theNOPR in 4 the Federal Register on December 16th, 2014. s We're having this publicmeeting today, on 6 January 8th. We're interested in receiving 7 comments from theNOPR from interestedparties. s DOE is going to review those and consider all g comments. And thenwe're looking for a final 10 rule ofpublication sometime in the fall of 2015. 11 The comment perioddoes close onMarch 12 2nd, 2015, so note that date. 13 Any questions about that historyreport? M (No audible response.) 15 MR. HAGERMAN: All right. So now is an 16 opportunity for the stakeholders to go around and 11 make opening statements if they feel inclined. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here at the**~** outset? 20 (No audible response.) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing at this time? 22 Nothing at this time. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337612

1 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me standup and see if 2 anybody from theWebinar. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then let's 4 proceed 5 MR. HAGERMAN: It's going to be a short 6 meeting, right? 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Proceedwith the content. 10 I would call your attention in slide 10 to the 11 issuebox that is there. This illustrates how 12 the Department calls out an issue for comment and 13 hopes to receive copious comment based onwhat's 14 listed there. 15 So, then let's proceedwithRegulatory 16 History and scope. 17 MR. HAGERMAN: Andwe'll do

-- for 1s everybody that's playing along at home, we'll do 19 better advancing these slides through the course. 20 And thenwe'll, of course, publish this 21 PowerPoint after themeeting. It's not already 22 on the docket, so. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337613

1 All right. So I'mgoing to cover the 2 RegulatoryHistory. So the first slide is kind 3 of the pre-February 10th, 2011, slide. The 4 products addressed in this rulemakingweren't s currently coveredbyDOE regulations. 6 The EPCA Act established coverage for 7 refrigerators, refrigerator-freezers, and s freezers that have these following g characteristics: They canbe operatedwithAC 10 electricity, are not designed to beusedwithout 11 doors, and include a compressor and condenser 12 that's integral to the unit. 13 November 19th, 2011, DOE modified its 14 definition of "electric refrigerators" to clarify 1s that refrigerator coverage excludes products that 16 do not maintain compartment temperatures suitable 11 for food storage. 1s So, the next slidebrings us moreup to 19 date. On February 10th, 2011, DOE issued 20 guidance regarding treatment of refrigeration 21 products that combine fresh food and freezer 22 compartments withhigher-temperature compartments OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337614

1 not suitable for food storage. We stated that 2 any size ofwine storage added to what would 3 otherwisebe an electric refrigerator or 4 refrigerator-freezer does not remove that product s from the coverage. 6 However, if a wine storage compartment is 7 greater than 50 percent of an otherwise freezer, s that product is not coveredunder the freezer g definition. And obviously, we'll get into this 10 in greater detail as we go through theproduct 11 class. 12 DOE published a coverageproposal for 13 non-compressor refrigerationNovember 8th, 2011. 14 And thenDOE published the coverageproposal for 1s thebroader range ofmiscellaneous refrigeration 16 on October 31st, 2013, whichbrings us here 11 today. 1s The products addressed includedwine 19 chillers using various refrigeration 20 technologies, thermoelectric and absorption 21 refrigeration technologies, and thenhybrid 22 refrigerationproducts, whichwe'll talk in OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337615

1 

### detail today, and icemakers. And theseproducts 2 

### wouldbe evaluatedunder 42 U.S.C. 6292, and 3 

### rather than expand the regulatorydefinition of 4 

### refrigerators to include some of theseproducts. 5 

### So we'll talk about that inmore detail today. 6 

### So that takes us to -- any questions 7 

### about that, thehistory of things? s 

### (No audible response.) 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So I'mgoing to hand it 10 

### over to Navigant now. You couldprobably

-- you 11 

### can sit at your seat, oryou can go up there. 12 

### It's up to you. It's such a small

-- 13 

### MR. WATSON: I'll go up front. It will M 

### be easier then. 15 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. 16 

### MR. WATSON: Okay. Thanks, Joe. 17 

### I'mTroyWatson, fromNavigant. And I'll 18 

### be takingus through some of theproposals that 19 

### are included in theNOPR. 20 

### So, as Joejust described in the 21 

### RegulatoryHistory, DOE has addressed certain 22 

### products that are not currently covered in OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337616

1 guidance documents and coverageproposals. And 2 these projects are the subjects of theNOPR we're 3 discussing today. 4 So, you could seehere, theNOPR covers s cooled cabinets, and these areproducts, suchas 6 wine chillers, that are intended to store -- to 7 maintain compartment temperatures at higher 8 temperatures that typical refrigerators. 9 The second set of products are those that 10 do not use vapor-compression technology. 11 The third set arehybridproducts. And 12 theseproducts just combine a warmer storage 13 compartment, so that's a compartment that would 14 meet the same temperatures as a cooled cabinet, 1s but that wouldbe combinedwith a typical 16 refrigerator-freezer compartment. And DOE is 11 proposing to call those "hybrids." 18 And the fourth group of products here are 19 icemakers. 20 And this presentationkind of Jumps right 21 into a lot of the details. So, I thought I'd 22 give an overviewhere ofwhere theproposals OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 wouldbeput into effect in the Code of Federal 2 Regulations based on this proposal. So, there 3 are twomain things DOE is proposinghere. And 4 those are definitions for theseproducts, and s then test procedures for theseproducts. 6 So, first, DOE's proposing definitions 7 for all these product types. Thosewouldbe s included in the CFR at 10 CFR 430.2, where there g is all the definitions for consumerproducts. 10 In addition to newdefinitions for these 11 products, DOE is proposing to amend the existing 12 definitions for refrigerators, refrigerator13 freezers, and freezers. And DOE is proposing to 14 do that to better clarify the distinctionwith 1s thesenew, proposedproduct definitions. 16 So, that should cover all theproduct 11 definitions. 1s For test procedures, testing a lot of 19 theseproducts is pretty similar to the existing 20 test procedures for refrigerators or freezers. 21 So, for certainproducts, DOE is proposing these 22 test procedures in the current AppendixA for OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 171 refrigerators, and that wouldbe for cooled 2 cabinets, thevapor-compression refrigerators, 3 and all of the hybridproducts except for hybrid 4 freezers. s Hybrid freezers wouldbe addressed in 6 AppendixB, the current test procedure for 7 freezers. And then icemakers, those are pretty 8 unique, so DOE is proposing to establisha new 9 appendix for those. So theywould get their own 10 separate test procedure. 11 So, hopefully, that kind of frames where 12 this discussion is going forward today. 13 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I just ask if that's 14

-- this is Joe Hagerman

-- is that clear to 1s everybody, what he's presenting? 16 (No audible response.) 17 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Good. 18 MR. WATSON: Itmight not be entirely 19 clear at this point, but hopefully, as we go on 20 itwill be. 21 22 MR. HAGERMAN: Everybody saidyes, so. MR. WATSON: All right. So we're good. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 1819

1 (Laughter.) 2 MR. WATSON: Okay. So we're going to 3 start off going through theproposedproduct 4 definitions. So, startingwith "cooled s cabinets," DOE is proposing to define these as "a 6 cabinet that has a source of refrigeration 7 requiring electric energy input only and is s capable ofmaintaining compartment temperatures 9 either (a) no lower than 39 degrees Fahrenheit; 10 or in a range that extends no lower than 37 11 degrees Fahrenheit, but at least as high as 60 12 degrees Fahrenheit." 13 And one thing to note here is that this 14 product definitionwould includebothvapor1s compression technologies and non-compressor 16 technologies, so things like absorption cooling 11 and thermoelectric cooling. 1s And one thing to note in this product 19 definition is you can see there's the 39-degree 20 Fahrenheit threshold. That's the standardized 21 compartment temperature for refrigerators. But 22 DOE is proposing to allowa 2-degree crossover OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337620

1 for cooled cabinets. 2 And that's because DOE observedduring 3 testing that someproducts are able to get a 4 littlebit lower than that 39-degree threshold. s But by including the provision that theproduct 6 would alsomaintain temperatures at least as high 7 as 60 degrees Fahrenheit, that shows that the s product is probably intended to maintain g compartment temperatures muchhigher than the 39- 10 degree threshold. 11 One other thing to note here in this 12 definition, and this would also be included in 13 the otherproposed definitions, is that when DOE M uses the phrase "capable of maintaining 1s compartment temperatures," that means during 16 typical room ambient of 72 degrees Fahrenheit. 17 So, even thoughmany of the testprocedures 18 required testing at a 90-degree ambient, for the 19 purposes of product classification, that wouldbe 20 based on operation in a 72-degree ambient 21 temperature. 22 I thinkwe asked for comment on this in a OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337621

1 couple of slides, but I'llpause nowbefore I go 2 to the next definition, if there's any comments 3 on the cooled cabinet definition. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that makes sense. s These definitions are important. Comments here 6 on theproposed definition? 7 (No audible response.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothinghere? Okay. 9 MR. WATSON: Okay. The next proposed 10 definition is for "non-compressorproducts." And 11 DOE is proposing a bunch of these, but the key 12 point is that the term "non-compressor" means 13 that the products didnot include a compressor 14 and a condensingunit. And specifically, DOE is 1s proposing the terms "non-compressor 16 refrigerator," "non-compressor all-refrigerator," 11 and "non-compressor cooled cabinet." 1s And one thing to note here is that DOE is 19 not aware of anynon-compressor refrigerator20 freezers or non-compressor freezers available on 21 themarket. So it's not proposing definitions 22 for theseproducts at this time. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337622

1 Andhere again is the request for 2 comment. Item 2 here is for the non-compressor 3 definition, if there's any comments there. 4 (No audible response.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: In case anybody is having 6 second thoughts, you can also address "cooled 1 cabinets" here as well. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments, questions on 10 these two issueboxes? 11 (No audible response.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MR. WATSON: Okay. Cruising along. 14 MR. HAGERMAN: Doug, let's just remind 1s everybody that theyhave until March 2nd to 16 submit those comments to us, as well. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou, Joe. 18 MR. WATSON: Next main definitionhere is 19 for "hybridproducts." DOE is proposing the 20 terms "hybridrefrigerators," "hybrid 21 refrigerator-freezers," and "hybrid freezers." 22 And as I mentionedbefore, these are for OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337623

1 theproducts that combine a warmer storage 2 compartment temperature with a cooler compartment 3 temperature, either refrigerator or freezer. 4 And the keypoint here is that, for s hybrid refrigerationproducts, at least half or 6 more of the total refrigeratedvolume consists of 7 thewarmer storage compartments. And DOE is s proposing to refer to these compartments as 9 "cellar compartments." Andwe'll jump into that 10 term a bitmore later on. But the keypoint is 11 that a cellar compartment has the same 12 temperature requirements as a cooled cabinet. So 13 you could think of a cooled cabinet as a product 14 that consists only of cellar compartments. 1s So, any comments on theproposed 16 definition for "hybridproducts"? 17 (No audible response.) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: None at this time. 19 MR. WATSON: And then, finally, the 20 fourth main set ofproducts here, these are the 21 icemakers. DOE is proposing the definition that 22 an "icemaker" is a consumerproduct other than OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 the currentlycoveredproducts and the other 2 product types I justwent through, that 3 automaticallyproduces andharvests ice. 4 And the proposed definitionwould also s exclude any type of icemaker that is certified 6 under theANSI-NSF 12-2012 standard. The 7 proposed definitionwould also clarify that an s icemakermay include a means for storing and-or g dispensing ice. 10 And there's another request for comment 11 here. I think, inparticular, DOE would request 12 comment onwhether the definition requires any 13 more distinction to clarify the difference 14 between icemakers and freezers. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Joseph. 16 MR. FONTECCHIO: JosephFontecchio, with 11 TrueManufacturing. 1s In this definition, NSF 12 is being 19 referenced as a distinction for not allowing in 20 residential usage. AndNSF 12 is a safetyand a 21 sanitation standard. I'mjust trying to 22 understandhow that would exclude a product from OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 2425

1 beingused in thehome as long as itmeets the 2 energy guidelines for this product class. 3 MR. WATSON: So, I might have to turn to 4 Navigant or DOE lawyers here. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef 6 Westphalen. 7 As wewere developing the proposals, s therewas some discussionwithin DOE and, you g know, amongst the contractors, of what 10 characteristics wouldbeused to distinguish 11 between commercial icemakers and residential ice 12 makers. 13 And this is the proposal that was put 14 forth and the proposal that we'reputting on the 15 table as the distinction, that if a manufacturer 16 goes through the trouble of getting a commercial 11 certification, that that product wouldnot 18 necessarilybe intended for residential use. 19 And, you know, clearly, this proposal is 20 up for comment. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: And Detlef andyou thought 22 NSF 12 plus ANSI was adequately descriptive, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337626

1 accurately descriptive? 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if a product does 3 have that certification, then clearlya 4 manufacturer has

-- and, you know, if a product s is listed as being certifiedunder this standard, 6 then, you know, thatwouldbe the distinction 7 according to this definition. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 9 MR. HON: CharlieHon, True 10 Manufacturing. 11 But that's a one near -- prettymuch if 12 you haveproducts alreadyNSF listed, that's 13 prettymuch a one-time cost. Itwould allow for 14 the ability to circumvent this regulation, by 1s getting a product which is fairly lowvolume, 16 reallynot applicable to commercial systems if 17 you go get it approved throughNSF. Thenyou can 18 circumvent this regulation. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Hm. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Joseph? 21 MR. FONTECCHIO: Andjust one last 22 comment to that is, if the difference is the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337627

1 energy allowance, and soonwe'll get to that with 2 the refrigerators. But nonetheless, the 3 commercial products aren't allowed the same 4 energy, maynot evenhave the same test format. s That is howwewould differentiate 6 commercial from residential, is the testing and 7 the allowances the government mandates for each 8 product category. NSF andUL aremore safety, 9 sanitation, installation, as opposed to the 10 energyusage. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's clearwhat 12 the Department is trying to do here. Is there 13 something else that youwould add that wouldbe a 14 substitute for this? 15 MR. FONTECCHIO: I mean, if it complies 16 with the energy that's being developed at this 17 point, and any other industry instruction or 18 guidelines, that wouldbewhat defines the 19 product for the home, just like for the 20 commercial. It needs to have certain standards 21 because the customers of the environment it is 22 used in areprotectedby the sanitation and the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337628

1 safety of UL. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 Charlie? 4 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. s Apossible alternate couldbe the amount 6 of production capabilities within the unit in a 7 day. Because traditionally in the industry, in 8 the commercial end of the business, a 50-pound 9 anythingbelow 50 pounds is considered 10 residential. Above 50 pounds in the commercial 11 lot is considered commercial. 12 That couldbe changed, because there are 13 some people that like largerunits in their 14 homes, withbigparties and stuff. But in a 1s commercial application, you'rebeing installed 16 into a locationwhichusuallyhas local building 11 codes which requireNSF 12 application. That's 18 justprettymuch the reasonpeople get it. 19 But it doesn't necessarilymean that you 20 can'thave itbecause of that. You couldhave a 21 piece of equipment that is capable ofbeing 50- 22 pound range, andyou stillwant to be able toput OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337629

1 it inyour entireproduct line. So youjust go 2 ahead and include it inyour listingunderNSF 3 12. 4 So, to me, I think themore applicable s logicwouldbe to come upwith some cut-point in 6 production, because a residential unit does not 7 needNSF 12, because there's no installation s requirements under local code. That's the reason 9 for NSF 12

-- sanitation codes, safety codes, 10 restaurant-type applications. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: In a commercial context? 12 MR. HON: In a commercial context. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 14 MR. HON: And ifyou're in residential, 1s most things are approved through anAHAM-type 16 system. They're not going for themore 17 expensive. But ifyou can go more expensive and 1s get circumventing the regulation, theremaybe a 19 lot of activity there. If you can't quitemake 20 it, go ahead and list itwithNSF 12 andyou can 21 sell it. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Didyouwish to comment? OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337630

1 MR. GOPAL: Yeah. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Please sayyour name 3 again. 4 MR. GOPAL: SriramGopal, fromAHAM. 5 I notice in subsequent slides that we'll 6 bebringing this up again. But we justwould 7 like to kind of plant the flag that we definitely s questionwhether a residential icemaker should g be included in this test procedure at all, simply 10 becausewe don't feel that it'sbeennecessarily 11 shown that there is a lot of energy savings to be 12 hadhere. And so, that's something that we will 13 be commenting on. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou. 15 Yes, Detlef? 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 11 I guess in linewith the discussion on 1s how to distinguishbetween commercial and 19 residential, you know, Charlie, youmentioned the 20 50-pounds-per-day as being the cut off for 21 commercializedmakers. 22 And, you know, certainly if there are OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337631

1 other thoughts as to what features that you can 2 point to, ifyou have in front of you a 3 residential and a commercial, howdo they differ? 4 You know, the Department welcomes those comments s as to what other types of characteristics could 6 be used tomake that distinction. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 8 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True g Manufacturing. 10 There arevery, very few real 11 differences. All you're looking at is, there are 12

-- you know, ifyou get into very largeunits, 13 thenyou have differences because the ice14 generation system is not necessarily integral to 1s the bin storage. 16 But in all small units, thebin and ice 11 generation are all built into one singlepiece. 1s So there's almost no differentiation at all. 19 20 21 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou. Yes? MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. The different units of icemakers, do OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337632

1 they all cluster around 50 and then, you know, 2 what, 50 gallons per day orwhatever it is? Or 3 do theyhave a bigjump? Or is there a very 4 smooth gradation of icemaking capacity? 5 MR. HON: Traditionally, they'vebeen 6 icemachines havebeenbasically in large 7 increment jumps. Fiftypounds of ice generation s is actuallyyield of ice; youwill generate fifty g pounds of ice in one 24-hourperiod. Thenyou 10 have lOOs. You have 150s, 250s. But they're 11 usually in incremental jumps because of marketing 12 reasons. 13 But youwill normally only see a 50- 14 pound, and there are some 100-poundresidential 1s units. But those are for veryunusual 16 applications, and the sales of those are so 17 minute that youwould never really see them. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're not going to see 19 a lot ofproducts with 55, 60, 65? 20 MR. HON: No. Theymay actuallyhave 21 that capacity, but they're always listed as a 50- 22 poundunit. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337633

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 2 Didyouhave some individuals? Yes. 3 MR. WATSON: Got a few. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Troy, go ahead. 5 MR. WATSON: So on the topic of ice 6 makers, we've got a comment from Bill Brown that 1 says, "To differentiate thesemachines from the 8 icemakers that are in refrigerator-freezers and 9 freezers, would DOE consider terming these 10 products as icemachines or something else?" And 11 I thinkDOE would definitelybe open to any 12 recommendations to help differentiatebetween 13 those. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's good. And 1s letme remind everybody online, please send in 16 those comments inwriting as well. 17 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't think it's our 18 intent tomake things more confusing, right? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 20 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean, ifwe can simplify 21 things, absolutely let's hear those comments. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337634

1 MR. HAGERMAN: I do have one question. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Joe, please keep 3 going. 4 MR. HAGERMAN: I do have one question. s When you said 50 pounds, is that a nominal 50 6 pounds or is that an actual 50 pounds? Do you 7 knowwhat I meanby that? Like, whenyou say 50 s pounds, if I turn that thing on for 24 hours, is g it going tomake 50 pounds? Or is it going to 10 make 52 pounds, or is it going tomake 60 pounds? 11 MR. HON: CharlieHon again. 12 It is going to beveryvariant upon 13 conditions. Harvesting of ice is dependent on 14 howmuch

-- once the ice is built, once youhave 1s a certain amount of ice and it dumps it out, you 16 will always have a variation in it. When you 11 drop it into a storagebin, youhave a melt ratio 1s that's going on, because thebin itself is not 19 cooled, becauseyou don't want the ice to stay in 20 there and get stale. So it's constantlymelting 21 itself down. So youhave to bevery cognizant. 22 It is

-- the 50-pound advertised in the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337635

1 commercial end, there's a test procedurewhere 2 you take the ice out and youweigh it. So you 3 have tobe able to generate a minimum of the 50 4 pounds; theymarket it as a 50-poundmachine. It 5 can generatemore than that, and depending on 6 conditions, you canhave a variation involtages 7 coming into the building. 8 Higher voltage increase the cycle speed. 9 If you have a variation in frequency coming into 10 thebuilding, increase or decrease the cycle 11 speed, then you can get a littlebitmore out of 12 it. And if you get 52 pounds, that's, you know, 13 4 percent variance, you're certainlygoing to 14 hedge toward that side of it so that you never 15 get caught shorting somebody on ice. 16 So, my estimate? A 50-poundmachine will 17 probablyproduce an average of 55 to 60 pounds. 18 But you don't want to be on the low side of it. 19 Youwant your customer to have at least what 20 you've promised them. 21 MR. HAGERMAN: Thankyou. That was very 22 helpful. Thankyou. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou. 2 Do we have additional? Yes? 3 MR. WATSON: Yeah, a couplemore. This 4 is TroyWatson again. s So this is kind of moving overback to 6 the "cool cabinet" definition. MariamRaji 7 commented, "Is there no maximum temperature that s the cool cabinets in cellar compartments must 9 staybelow?" And in theproposeddefinitions, 10 DOE is not proposing anymaximum temperature for 11 those compartments orproducts in itsproposal. 12 But we would request comment onwhether one of 13 thosewouldbe appropriate. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Thankyou. 15 MR. WATSON: And on that same topic, 16 Michele Crociani commented, "As a mini-bar 11 manufacturer, I would like to knowhow themini1s bar for a hotel is classified, because it seems 19 there is confusion on this." 20 And I would say, justbased on the 21 product definitions, that would depend on the 22 compartment temperatures that theproducts are OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 3637

1 able tomaintain and on the refrigeration 2 technology that's beingused, if it's a vapor3 compression refrigerator or a non-compression 4 refrigerator as, I think, manyhotel units are. 5 (Pause.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. WATSON: Andback to the topic of ice 8 makers, Andrew Sullivan commented, "Icemakers 9 shouldbe distinguished from freezers by 10 percentagevolume dedicated to iceproduction11 storage similar to the definition for a hybrid 12 wine chiller." 13 DOE wouldprobablywelcome information as 14 to what the appropriatepercentage for that would 1s be if that's an appropriateway to differentiate 16 between the products. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Is there a rule of thumb 18 on this, or is it all over theplace?**~** Charlie? 20 MR. HON: Traditionally, youhave some 21 real serious questions I have to askhere. 22 Number one is, traditionally, inwhat we would OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337638

1 consider an icemaker in the industry, it is 2 prettymuch exclusivelymaking ice. Theremaybe 3 a very small component. But theprimary 4 refrigeration system is designed for the ice s generation. 6 In a residential refrigeratorwith an ice 7 maker inside of it, the primary function of the 8 refrigerationunit is to generate cold air for g the freezer. The icejust is a scavenger off the 10 side of it. It's usuallyvery lowpercentage of 11 your internal volume of your freezer. But ifyou 12 get into some large

-- some side-by-sides have a 13 fairly large storagebin. 14 But youhave a difference in the nature 1s of the ice. Because in an icemachine 16 exclusively, you're not saving the iceby a cold 17 environment. The ice itself is stored in a non18 controlled environment. The chilling is from the 19 other ice. 20 In a freezer, refrigerator-freezer, the 21 chilling is from the freezer to keep the ice 22 cold. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337639

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Thankyou. 2 MR. WATSON: See, and I think, again, any 3 written comments thatwouldhelp clarify these 4 definitions would definitelybe appreciated. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, additional comments 6 related to these comment boxes beforewe move on? 7 (No audible response.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 MR. WATSON: Okay. Okay. So, as I 10 mentionedback on the first slide I presented, 11 DOE is also proposing amendments to the existing 12 refrigerator, refrigerator-freezer, and freezer 13 definitions tohelp improve clarityand 14 distinguish from the newlyproposed definitions. 15 So, this is the list of theproposed 16 amendments for these definitions. DOE is 17 proposing to clarify that theseproducts may 1s contain cellar compartments. But if the cellar 19 compartments make up less thanhalf of the total 20 refrigeratedvolume, theywould stillbe 21 considered refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, or 22 freezer, as appropriate. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337640

1 DOE is alsoproposing to remove the terms 2 "electric refrigerator" and "electric 3 refrigerator-freezer" from 10 CFR 430.2. Right 4 now, these terms are kind of redundant. They s just reference "refrigerator" and "refrigerator6 freezer." 7 DOE is also proposing tomove the term s "all refrigerator" that's currently inAppendix g A. DOE is proposing tomove that definition to 10 10 CFR 430.2, and thatwouldbe consistent with 11 where all the otherproduct-type definitions are 12 inc1uded. 13 For these definitions, DOE is proposing M to replace the current phrase "designed to be 1s capable of achieving" with thephrase "capable of 16 maintaining compartment temperatures at." And 17 this is consistent with the other definitions I 1s justwent through, where "capable ofmaintaining 19 compartment temperatures at" wouldbe determined 20 during operation at an ambient of 72 degrees 21 Fahrenheit. So this way, all the refrigeration 22 products wouldbe consistent across the board in OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337641

1 their definitions. 2 In these three definitions, DOE is also 3 proposing to remove references to the storage of 4 food. Theproposeddefinitions are trying to get s more towards concrete temperature ranges, things 6 like that that someone couldpoint to to get a 7 better idea ofwhichproduct type a product s shouldbe classified as. 9 And then, finally, DOE is proposing to 10 add exclusions of products designed to be used 11 with open compartments, without an integral 12 compressor and condenser, or certifiedunder the 13 commercial standards NSF 7-2009 andUL 471. And 14 this is to better differentiatebetween consumer 1s and commercial products. 16 So, any -- I thought therewas a comment 17 there. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Joseph? 19 MR. FONTECCHIO: Yes, Joseph Fontecchio 20 with TrueManufacturing. 21 The lastbulletpoint about the 22 differentiation of residential and commercial. I OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337642

1 mean, today residential products that are sold 2 for outdoor use have to qualifywithUL 471 and 3 get a complementary listing to UL 250. So in 4 that example, rating residential equipment to be s used in an outdoor kitchenhas to come through 6 471. So that shouldn't be able to differentiate 7 between the home or the commercial. 8 And thenNSF 7 / again it's a performance 9 rating to make sure ithas cooling capacity to 10 keep food at a safe temperature in a given 11 condition. And it's quite a bit about 12 accessibility in thematerials that you use and 13 the construction of yourmachinery. 14 The differentiation is the EnergyGuide. 1s So ifwe have a product that uses, you know, 16 three kilowatts and complies with the DOE thatwe 11 just did in September, it's a vastlydifferent 1s test withvastlydifferent energy allowance than 19 the commercial test. 20 That's themain distinguisherbetween 21 commercial and residential. These additional 22 safety, installation, and sanitation shouldn't OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337643

1 limit use in the home. They're a value-add. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 3 MR. HON: CharlieHonwith True 4 Manufacturing. s There is also some games canbeplayed 6 here, becauseNSF andUL canbe attained and 7 thereby circumvent the standardagain. It is a 8 differentiation level, but in commercial 9 applications those same standards, ifwe're 10 trying to apply a unit to commercial, it says 11 that you have

-- it's also involved inmarketing. 12 Ifwe would advertise it andmake it 13 readily available to the residential market, then 14 itwouldhave to meet the

-- say, a full-sized 1s refrigerator that wouldbe in a commercial 16 kitchen. And there are customers who want those 11 in theirhomes. It's not a good idea, but people 18 do want them. 19 Andbecausewe do not market to that and 20 we do not advertise, andbasically advertise 21 against that application, but we have no control 22 of it sometimes, it does happen. But bydoing OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337644

1 this, there's no specification in the commercial 2 icemakers about what defines a residential or a 3 commercial. 4 So by going to these two standards and s have themmet andpay for the few dollars that it 6 takes to have themmet, suddenlywe're excluding 7 them from the energy efficiency standards. And 8 for those few dollars, if you're able tomarket g yourproduct, it's an advantage. And thenyou'll 10 never have to deal with DOE. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Charlie. 12 Yes, please. Sriram. 13 MR. GOPAL: SriramGopal fromAHAM. 14 We're still developing our comments on 1s this particular question, but one thingwas some 16 feedbackwe did get from ourmembers is whether, 11 you know, these definitions couldbe tied into, 18 you know, a specific test condition or an ambient 19 temperature or something like that. 20 And also, the 72-degree Fahrenheit 21 ambient condition, we got feedback frommembers 22 saying that they generallyhave a room set up at OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337645

1 70 degrees Fahrenheit andwhether DOE wouldbe 2 amenable to changing that number. So that's 3 somethingwemay comment on. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Is 70 degrees in some, in 5 the existing testprocedure somewhere? 6 MR. GOPAL: I need to get clarification 7 onwhere that number comes from. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Thankyou. 9 Yes. 10 MR. WATSON: Is there any data

-- this is 11 TroyWatson again. 12 If there's any data or test data 13 supporting that claim, we would definitely M appreciate it. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 11 Manufacturing. 1s What wouldyou considernormal variation 19 from 72 degrees? Because a test standard should 20 haveplus orminus on it. 21 MR. WATSON: Off the top of my head, I'm 22 not sure if that's included in the reg text. But OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337646

1 I think for these temperature ranges, it'splus 2 orminus 1 degree. I know that's what it is for 3 the 90-degree ambient in the test procedure. 4 MR. HON: But nowwe'reposing a new s conditionhere, 72. And couldyou, because it is 6 not -- it's not a heavy-demand condition, could 7 youput it 71 plus orminus 2 or something and s deal with all of it at one time? 9 MR. WATSON: I thinkDOE would definitely 10 appreciate comments on it, if that's possible, to 11 help reduce test burden. One thing to point out 12 here is that the 72 degrees wouldn't be required 13 for testing the products each time. It's just 14 for purposes of determiningproduct type, 1s classification. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Goodpoint. Okay. 11 Additional comments on this series of 1s points, differentiators really? 19 (No audible response.) 20 MR. WATSON: So all thoseprevious 21 definitions cover specificproduct types. DOE is 22 also proposing two additional terms to describe OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337647

1 groups ofproducts. And the first is 2 "miscellaneous refrigerationproducts." This 3 wouldbe a blanket term that refers to the 4 products that are addressedby this NOPR that are s not currentlyregulatedbyDOE. 6 The seconddefinitionwouldbe "consumer 7 refrigerationproduct," and that wouldbe another s blanket term that refers to bothmiscellaneous g refrigerationproducts and the currentlycovered 10 refrigerator, refrigerator-freezer, and freezer 11 products. 12 And DOE is proposing these terms because 13 there are someprovisions in the test procedures 14 and the certificationrequirements that apply to 1s thewhole group of products, orboth groups, and 16 this just allows for easier referencing of these 17 groups of products. 1s (Pause.) 19 MR. WATSON: So again, request for 20 comment? I thinkwe might have covered the 21 secondpoint a bit. But on the first point, DOE 22 requests comment on theblanket terms OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 "miscellaneous refrigerationproduct" and 2 "consumer refrigerationproduct." 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Sriram. 4 MR. GOPAL: Sriram fromAHAM. s AHAM has commented on this in thepast, 6 andwe'll be reiterating the fact that we still 7 don't feel that it's appropriate to lump all of 8 theseproducts together. We feel that they are g different enough that theywarrant separate test 10 procedures. And in that case, each shouldbe 11 shown to, you know, contribute to energy 12 efficiency standards on their own and not as a 13 group. Andwe questionwhether, you know, going 14 down this path is appropriate. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou. 16 Any additional comments, particularlyon 17 as described, as elaborated, miscellaneous 18 refrigerationproduct or consumer refrigeration 19 product? 20 (Pause.) 21 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. MR. WATSON: Now, here is a chart. This OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 4849

1 wasn't included in the NOPR, but it kind of helps 2 to showwhere the proposed definitions fall into 3 place in the overall scheme of consumer 4 refrigerationproducts. So you can see, within s consumer refrigerationproducts, we have 6 refrigerators, refrigerator-freezers, and 7 freezers. Those are our currently covered s products. Thenwe have themiscellaneous 9 refrigerationproducts that is the subject of 10 this NOPR. 11 And thenwithin those, we have the four 12 mainproduct types that we've discussed already. 13 Those are the cooled cabinets, icemakers, hybrid 14 products, andnon-compressor refrigerators. And 1s then, depending on the product type, theremaybe 16 additional definitions within each of those 11 categories and different product types within 1s those. 19 And the specific testprocedures for 20 thoseproducts, we'll address those. Andwe'll 21 be getting into those in a bitmore detail as we 22 go through those testprovisions. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337650

1 

### MR. BROOKMAN: This is a veryuseful 2 

### graphic. 3 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. Joe Hagerman, DOE. 4 

### Next time, let's startwith this. 5 

### (Laughter.) 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: It's good. It's very 7 

### good. 8 

### MR. HAGERMAN: The helpful charthere g 

### that you'vehit on. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're going to keep 11 

### going. 12 

### (Slide.) 13 

### MR. WATSON: And so, just another slide 14 

### thatmight be a bit helpful in figuring out the 15 

### definitions. This is just an example of howone 16 

### would classifya product type. So this example 11 

### has two compartments. The top compartment is 1s 

### larger than thebottomone. Andhere our example 19 

### temperature ranges at both 90 degrees ambient and 20 

### 72 degrees ambient. 21 

### You can see at 90, the temperatures are 22 

### prettyhigh. Theywouldbothbe in the cellar OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337651

1 compartment range, but that's at 90 degrees. 2 Compartment classification, as DOE proposes it, 3 wouldbe determined at a 72 degree ambient. So 4 there you could see the temperature ranges are 5 lower. 6 They'repretty similar. You could see 7 thebottomcompartment gets belowthe 39 degree s thresholdpretty comfortably. The top 9 compartment gets below 39, but it onlygets down 10 to 38 degrees Fahrenheit. 11 Theproposed definition for "cellar 12 compartment, 11 it can go as lowas 3 7 degrees 13 Fahrenheit, but as long as itmaintains 14 temperatures above 60 degrees, it could stillbe 15 considered a cellar compartment. So because this 16 top compartment has a range from 38 to 63, that 11 wouldbe considered a cellar compartment. The 1s bottom compartment wouldbe considered a fresh 19 food compartment. 20 And thenbecause the top compartment is 21 larger ormakes up more thanhalf of the volume 22 of this product, that wouldbump it into the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337652

1 hybridproduct category. So in this case, you'd 2 get a hybrid andwe just say it's a non3 compressorproduct. There's nothing to do there. 4 Ahybridnon-compressor all-refrigerator is what 5 this wouldbe. 6 So just an example of the steps onewould 7 go throughbased on the newproduct definitions. s So that takes us to the end of the 9 product definitions. I know therewere a lot and 10 we've discussed themquite a bit. But if there's 11 anymore comments at this time, I think itwould 12 be a goodpoint to stop. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Andno one has yet 14 commented on kind of the inherent logic in all of 15 this, I don't believe. So whether it's now or in 16 your written comments, that wouldbe useful for 17 the Department, for you to say, "Yeah, this kind 1s of structure, this latching together of features,**~** that makes sense" ornot. Right? I'm searching 20 for ithere, folks. Okay. 21 So then I guess we're going tomove on. 22 I guess we have one comment from online. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337653

1 MR. WATSON: We do. Yep, onemore 2 question online fromMichele Crociani again. And 3 it says, "Mini-bar for hotel is not mentioned. 4 Do we have to consider it as consumerproducts or 5 commercial?" 6 And I think the response to that wouldbe 7 that itwouldbe coveredunder theproposed 8 definitions, and it'sjust a matter of what g product type itwould fall intobased on its 10 compartment temperatures. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 12 Okay. Arewe ready tomove onnow? 13 (Pause.) 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. Apparently, Joanna Mauer, who 

### . . . online, has question 15 lS ]Olnlngus a 16 or comment. Joanna, unmute yourphone and 17 hopefullywe'll hear you. 18 MS. MAUER: Hi. Thanks. This lS Joanna 19 fromASAP. 20 I just got confused on the last slide, 21 going through the exampleproduct, whereyou said 22 itwouldbe a hybridnon-compressorproduct. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337654

1 

### Does thatmean itwould fall in the categoryof 2 

### non-compressorproducts? 3 

### MR. WATSON: Yes, itwould. So this is a 4

-- 

### itwouldbebothhybrid andnon-compressor. 5 

### MS. MAUER: And is this a type of product 6 

### that you've seen on themarket today? 7 

### MR. WATSON: No. I don't think so. This s 

### is justkind of one of themost complicated g 

### examples we could come upwith. 10 

### (Laughter.) 11 

### MR. WATSON: Sowe decided to go with 12 

### that even though it's not necessarilyrealistic 13 

### of the market. 14 

### MS. MAUER: Okay. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, this doesn't exist? 16 

### This is a fabrication, this photograph? 17 

### MR. WATSON: Thephotograph exists, but 1s 

### it's not this product. The data is made up. 19 20 21 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay. (Laughter.) MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. MR. HON: One other comment. We were OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337655

1 just sittinghere talking about something. The 2 discussion of a mini-bar is a beast in itself 3 because that brings up additional discussions of 4 NSF standards andUL standards. 5 Because those NSF standards andUL safety 6 standards are designed for commercial andpublic 7 application in certain types of environment. And s a hotel usually fits in that category. Hotel 9 rooms would then fit in that category, the same 10 as the icemachine and the vendingmachine in the 11 hallway, because they are a commercial 12 application. 13 So ifyouuse theNSF andUL exclusion, 14 youmay exclude all mini-bars. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So that pushes them out of 16 the, quote, "consumer" designation. 17 Detlef. 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: So, this is Detlef. 19 So what you're saying is that nearlyall 20 hotel mini-bars do have theNSF andUL 21 certification? 22 MR. HON: I would say that. Itmaynot OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337656

1 be true, but if the building inspectorwishes to 2 impose the regulations and there's local codes, 3 itwouldbe. Certain areas have all-commercial 4 all buildings fall under certainbuilding 5 codes for NSF orUL listings. You have to have a 6 product UL listed in certain applications. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou, Charlie. 8 So this is good comment. Any additional g thoughts along these lines beforewe move on? 10 (Pause.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Sriram. 12 MR. GOPAL: I have a question on the 50- 13 percent volume issue. Couldyou kind of 14 elaborate onwhere that 50-percent number came 15 from? And also, if there's going to be a 16 tolerance level associatedwith that 50-percent 17 volume number, is that somethingDOE wouldbe 18 open to? 19 MR. WATSON: I'llhave to turn to Detlef 20 on the history of that number. 21 MR. GOPAL: Becausewe all know that 22 calculatingvolumes canbe an exercise in and of OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337657

1 itself. So, you know

-- 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 3 The 50 percent initiallycame out of a 4 waiver request byLiebherr. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Detlef, speakup, please. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: The 50 percent initially 7 came out of a waiver request byLiebherrback in s 2007 when theywanted to commercialize something g that was a hybrid. And so they

-- you know, it 10 was a hybrid freezer. 11 Certainly, DOE requests comment on 12 whether 50 percent is the current number and then 13 justification for why itmay ormaynot be. 14 Theproposal at this point does not have 15 specifics regarding tolerance on the 50 percent. 16 For instance, if you're at 49 percent, you know, 11 if, say, youmeasure three of these and two of 1s them are at 51, 50.5, and another one is 49, what 19 does that do to theproduct as a whole? And so, 20 certainly, you know, DOE wouldwelcome some 21 comments on exactlyhowDOE shouldhandle that. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337658

1 Joanna? Please unmute your phone. Let's 2 hear from you. 3 MS. MAUER: I justwanted to followup on 4 this example of a hybridnon-compressor 5 refrigerator. Andmy question is, if therewere 6 such a product, would itbe coveredunder the 7 proposed definitions? 8 MR. WATSON: Yes, itwould. DOE is g proposing the term "hybridnon-compressor all10 refrigerator" as part of this NOPR. So itwould 11 be coveredunder that definition. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Describe why itwouldbe 13 covered, Troy. 14 MR. WATSON: Well, so, yeah. For the 15 reasons I discussedwith classifying the two 16 compartments and the fact that this example would 17 not have a compressor and condenser, itwould 18 meet all the requirements of the proposed 19 definition for hybrid non-compressor all20 refrigerator. 21 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. MS. MAUER: So, is in the

-- this is OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337659

1 maybe jumping ahead to the preliminaryTSD, but 2 this wouldbe

-- so there's one proposedproduct 3 class for non-compressor refrigerators. Areyou 4 saying itwould fall under that category? 5 (Pause.) 6 MR. WATSON: Off the top of my head, I 7 can't recall the specific product classes that s were considered in the preliminary analysis. Do 9 you deal with

-- are you aware of those? 10 MS. MAUER: Okay. Perhaps this is maybe 11 a discussion for tomorrow. 12 MR. WATSON: Yeah. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: This lS Detlef. 14 Just in response to that, this type of 15 product does not fit into the class structure 16 that we'll be talking about tomorrow, if I 11 remember correctly. However, the classes that 1s we'll be talking about tomorrowrepresent 19 products that DOE has seen on the market. And so 20 if this particularproduct did appear on the 21 market, then DOE wouldhave to decide how to deal 22 with it, whether the proposals that we'll talk OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337660

1 about tomorrow for hybrids would take dominance 2 orwhether theproposals for non-compressor 3 refrigerators would take dominance, andhow that 4 would all get worked out. s But it's a goodpoint, Joanna, and 6 something that maybe in future will have to be 7 worked out. 8 MS. MAUER: Thankyou. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou. 10 MR. WATSON: I apologize. Next time I'll 11 keep the examples more realistic. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I think itwas useful to 13 try and construct that. M Joseph, go ahead. 15 MR. FONTECCHIO: I justwanted to go 16 back, ifyou don't mind, to the slide about the 17 change in the definition of "electric 18 refrigerator" or "refrigerators." That's where 19 you'reproposing adding the stipulation for ANSI 20 andUL. 21 That's a refrigerator. But nowwe're 22 talking about these non-refrigeratorproducts. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337661

1 Where dowe stand on the definition of those as 2 relates to theNSF 7 and theUL? Because it 3 appears that the temperature range defines the 4 differencebetween refrigerator and a nons refrigerator as a first separation. 6 And then also, another onewhere it 7 needed to have a compressor and condenser for the s refrigerator, where it does not for the 9 nonstandard. Do we have a full definition of the 10 nonstandardproducts? 11 MR. WATSON: So I thinkyou're asking 12 whether the definition for the "cooled cabinets" 13 includes the exclusions for NSF andUL 471? 14 MR. FONTECCHIO: Yes. 15 MR. WATSON: I don't believe that's 16 included in the proposeddefinitions at this 17 time. But that might be an oversight, because 18 I'mguessing that would

-- DOE wouldwant those 19 to be consistent across the board. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks for pointing 21 that out. 22 MR. GOPAL: Right. Temperature is the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337662

1 big differentiator. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. GOPAL: And then the compressor. 4 MR. WATSON: Correct. 5 MR. FONTECCHIO: So right nowyou're 6 saying if it doesn't have a compressor, it can't 7 be a refrigerator. 8 MR. WATSON: Right. Itwouldbe g considered a non-compressor refrigerator. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou, Joseph. 11 MR. FONTECCHIO: Is it a non-compressor 12 refrigerator, or it's a nonstandardproduct? 13 It's not -- the term "refrigerator" goes away 14 because it doesn't hold the 39 degrees. 15 MR. WATSON: Okay. So, I think I see 16 what you're sayingnow. If it doesn't hold the 17 39 degrees, that pushes it to "cooled cabinets." 18 MR. FONTECCHIO: Yes. 19 MR. WATSON: And then there's no 20 differentiation at this point between

-- at least 21 in terms of theproduct definition, there's no 22 differentiationbetween "compressor cooled OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 cabinets" and "non-compressor cooled cabinets." 2 MR. FONTECCHIO: Okay. 3 MR. WATSON: However, DOE is proposing 4 differences in the test procedures for those s units. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 7 Just to clarify, there are separate 8 definitions for a "non-compressor cooled g cabinet," you know, and, you know, a 

### w "conventional cooled cabinet" because the test 11 procedures are different. Whenwe get into 12 tomorrow's discussion, the classes are not 13 different, but that's part of tomorrow's 14 discussion. 15 MR. FONTECCHIO: Yes. But what I'm 16 pointing to is that you'rewanting to change the 11 definition of the "refrigerator" as part of this 18 additional category of cooled cabinets, hybrid 19 cabinets. And that point is whereyouwanted to 20 add the UL ANSI. 21 This is changing the definition of 22 "refrigerator." So we'remixing two things here, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 6364

1 with changing the definition of the 2 "refrigerator," which is one thing, 39 degrees, 3 and this "cooled cabinet" greater than 39 4 degrees. I guess some clarityon the definition s of

-- you know, a logic tree: What makes it a 6 cooled cabinet? So we know for sure it can't 7 hold 39. And according to this, it doesn't have s to have a compressor, where this one does. g Andpotentially, the UL andNSF 10 stipulation, so there's two branches here. One 11 is a refrigerator or capable of holding 39, and 12 one is non-capable of holding 39. And so the 13 definitions need to bemore specific. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I mean, I guess the 1s question of the commercial certifications, the 16 NSF andUL, that's something that you raised that 11 Troy saidpotentiallydidnot get into the 1s definitions for cooled cabinet. 19 MR. FONTECCHIO: Yes, sir. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Andwe should check that 21 andmake sure that's consistent, whateverwe 22 decide to use as a distinctionbetween commercial OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337665

1 and residential. And that's a goodpoint. 2 In regard to what is a refrigerator, a 3 refrigeratorwithout a compressor is not a 4 refrigerator, according to these definitions. 5 That's just some, you know

-- that's theway the 6 logic works. So a non-compressor refrigerator is 7 not a DOE refrigerator. It's a non-compressor s refrigerator. 9 Sometimes, you'll see somebody talking 10 about a refrigerator. Andyou just need to keep 11 clear thatwhenyou see the regulatory language, 12 when it says "a refrigerator," itmeans it has a 13 compressor. 14 MR. FONTECCHIO: So then, should that not 15 be called a "non-compressor cooled cabinet"? 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we do have a 11 separate definition, I believe, for "non1s compressor cooled cabinet." Itmeans the cooled 19 cabinet without the compressor. 20 MR. FONTECCHIO: Is that not the same as 21 the non-cooled or non-compressor refrigerator? 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: It is not the same. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Okay. 2 

### MR. WESTPHALEN: The temperature 3 

### differencemakes it not the same. 4 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Butbecause it doesn't s 

### meet the temperature and doesn't have a 6 

### compressor, it's not a refrigerator? 7 

### MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right. 8 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Okay. There couldbe 9 

### some confusion there, is what I'm saying. 10 

### MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Yeah. 11 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: "Refrigerator" now is 12 

### being changed tomean 39 degrees. So anything 13 

### that doesn't do 39 is going tobe a cooled, 14 

### hybrid, cellar, portions. I could see the 1s 

### confusion, depending on theproduct you have, 16 

### which categoryyou need to complywith andwhich 11 

### standardyou have to test to. 18 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman, 19 

### DOE. 20 

### I thinkwe'veheard a couple of times 21 

### todaypeople confusedbydeterminingwhere they 22 

### call in this rubric, right? OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 6667

1 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 2 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And I think, you know, 3 

### your suggestion of this logic tree, logicmap, 4 

### somehelpful tool, I think, wouldbenefit all of s 

### us sowe canbe ensured that we're not talking 6 

### past each other. Right. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And I think in this last s 

### exchange, we gained some ground on it. 9 

### (Laughter.) 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I thinkwe did. So, 11 

### Joseph, thankyou for that, and Detlef as well. 12 

### Yes. 13 

### So, additional thoughts and comments here 14 

### beforewe move on? 1s 

### (No audible response.) 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. 17 

### MR. WATSON: So nowwe'll

-- this isback 1s 

### to TroyWatson. 19 

### Now we'll Jump into theproposed test 20 

### procedure amendments. 21 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So, Michael Kido is now 22 

### withus from GC's office. Andhe pointed out OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337668

1 that in the largerNOPR

-- you know, what you're 2 seeinghere in these PowerPoints are a snapshot 3 of the NOPR, right? It's not all the details of 4 theNOPR. So ifyou go back and actuallyread s the NOPR, he thinks itmay explain it a little 6 bitmore clearly. So. 7 MR. KIDO: Yeah, Michael Kido. 8 I don't remember. I'm looking at Detlef 9 right now. At onepoint, I thought we didhave a 10 matrix of some sort that laid out the different 11 characteristics. Andmaybe that wouldbe a 12 visual tool that folks canuse to kind of get an 13 idea of what we're thinking about. 14 You know, a logic tree is also a good 1s idea, too. But I justwanted tomake sure 16 everyonehad the same tools that we were looking 11 at whenwe were developing this particular notice 18 19 20 21 22 so that we're all on the samepage. MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou, Michael. Thankyou. Detlef, do youwant to addhere? MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. If it's the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337669

1 

### figure that I thinkMichael is referring to, 2 

### that's something that, you know, we couldput on 3 

### the docket, for example, tohelp clarify. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah. I thinkJoe s -- 

### it's a good idea ifJoe

-- 6 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Our intention is notmake7 

### this-confusing, right? 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And thewhole goal here is 10 

### to workwith everybody to make this, you know, 11 

### easy to understand and accessible. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So let's do that. Let's 14 

### add it to the docket. And ifwe need to revise 1s 

### it andput a newdocument on the docket, let's do 16 

### it. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Great. 1s 

### Apparently, Andrew Sullivan, who is 19 

### joiningus online, has a question or comment. 20 

### Andrew? 21 

### MR. SULLIVAN: Yeah. I was just, as I 22 

### was reading through theNOPR, itjust came tomy OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337670

1 -- it seems likewe're always playing catch-up 2 with the definitions, based on all the designs 3 that are coming out for all these different 4 products. s I just thinkwe need to try and do an 6 approach, and I'mputtingmy head towards it, 7 thinkinghard about it, that reallymodularizes 8 everything so that itbecomes future design9 proof, without handcuffing, you know, developers 10 ormanufacturers in their designs. 11 But just one of the things as far as 12 approaches to hybridproducts, you know, if it's 13 not a pure, single, you know, temperature or 14 single climate compartment, tome it's basically 1s a hybrid, right? If it's a mixture of different 16 compartments that have different features and 11 functions and temperature or climate controls, 18 then itwouldbe a hybrid. 19 And there needs to be some sort of 20 definition that's modularized, regardless ofwhat 21 the design is. What that is, unfortunately, I 22 don't know at this point. But we're looking at OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337671

1 products now that also, you know, are regulating 2 ormonitoringhumidity inside as well. And 3 there's definitely energy-using components that 4 are involved in that. s When you change the behavior or fans or 6 addheaters into things in order to control the 7 humidity, which, you know, somewine units do, s and thenwe also have refrigeratedhumidors out g there, howdo we classify these or future-proof 10 the definitions of a hybrid so that, when these 11 newproducts come along, theybasically fall into 12 place and, you know, avoidmanufacturers from 13 having to do these complicatedwaiver requests 14 and things like that? 1s But they can actuallydefine their 16 product themselves through the actual test 17 procedure and capture these energies. 1s I just thinkwe need to look at themnow 19 as climate compartments or climate chambers, 20 rather than just refrigerated, because they are. 21 We are adding somany different other features in 22 there to handle, you know, likehumidity and OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337672

1 anti-sweating technology and things like that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay, Andrew. 3 Thankyou. That's helpful. Appreciate that. 4 MR. WATSON: I think the intent of the s proposal is to cover as many types of products as 6 DOE is aware of. And DOE is trying to anticipate 7 future products. But if there's something s specific in therewhere a newproduct type 9 wouldn't be covered, or there's a technology that 10 wouldn't be addressed, itwouldbe helpful to 11 have that specific information to knowwhere the 12 currentproposal is lacking. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we ready tomove on? 14 (Pause.) 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 MR. WATSON: Okay. So now into the test 17 procedure amendments. The first couplehere 18 aren't specific tomiscellaneous refrigeration 19 products. Theyjust apply in general to 20 Appendices AandB. 21 So, first, DOE is proposing to eliminate 22 the definitionnumbering inAppendices AandB, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337673

1 and that's just to simplify the overall structure 2 of those test procedures. 3 The secondproposal is, DOE is proposing 4 to eliminate theprovisions for externallyvented s products fromAppendixA. And that's because DOE 6 is not aware of any of these types ofproducts 7 currentlyavailable on themarket. 8 DOE requests comment specificallyon the g proposal to remove the externallyventedproduct 10 provisions and onwhether any of theseproducts 11 are available ormaybecome available in thenear 12 future. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: No comment. 14 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. 15 MR. WATSON: So back to specific 16 provisions for miscellaneous refrigeration 17 products. DOE is proposing samplingplans, 18 certificationreporting requirements, and 19 provisions for themeasurement andverification 20 of volume of theseproducts that wouldbe 21 consistent with theprovisions that currently 22 exist for refrigerators, refrigerator-freezers, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337674

1 and freezers. 2 So, theprovisions for certification 3 reporting and samplingplans, those will be 4 included in 10 CFR 429. The sectionnumbering at s this point is 61, but that will depend on the 6 time of the final rule. I'm sure others maybe 7 added in. s One thing to note here is that non9 compressor refrigerators andhybridnon10 compressor refrigerators wouldhave additional 11 reporting requirements compared to existing

-- 12 sorry about that

-- compared to the existing 13 requirements for refrigerators and refrigeratorM freezers. 1s And the requirement wouldbe that if 16 these types of products are not able to maintain 17 compartment temperatures at the cold setting, 1s manufacturers wouldhave to report whatever 19 temperature they are able to maintain. And this 20 wouldbe under test conditions at 90 degrees 21 Fahrenheit. 22 Icemakers would also have additional OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337675

1 reporting requirements, and thosewouldbe for 2 harvest rate and the icehardness used in the 3 test procedure. 4 In Section 10 CFR 429.72, DOE is 5 proposing to allowtheuse of CAD software to 6 certifyproduct volumes. This is consistentwith 7 the refrigerator and refrigerator-freezer 8 requirements. g In Section 429.134, DOE proposes to 10 include volume verificationprocedures for 11 miscellaneous refrigerationproducts that are 12 consistent with those for refrigerators. 13 And one thing to point out here is that 14 these certificationrequirements wouldn't be 15 finalized until the time of an energy 16 conservation standards final rule. But DOE is 17 proposing them at this point just to get feedback 18 onwhether they're appropriate for this group of**~** products. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Nate, please. 21 MR. MOUW: Okay. Just a question. This 22 is Nate fromWhirlpool. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337676

1 There's a -- youhadmentioned for ice 2 makers that icehardness wouldbe a required 3 certification. It seems like, as I read the 4 NOPR, that was specific to continuous-type ice s makers. Is this requirement for both, or am I 6 mistaken? 7 MR. WATSON: This would onlybe a 8 requirement for the icemakers that use it in the g test procedure. 10 MR. MOUW: Okay. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 12 As you suggest, the hardness wouldbe 13 required only for the continuous icemakers, 14 which couldhave non-unityhardness. 15 MR. WATSON: Any other additional 16 comments at this point? 17 (Pause.) 18 MR. WATSON: To move into testing, it 19 helps to knowwhat type of product you're 20 testing. So DOE is proposing clarifications for 21 compartment andproduct determination type. DOE 22 is proposing that the "compartment" definition OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337677

1 would specifythat the term and test procedures 2 denotes either an individual enclosurewithin a 3 cabinet or all of the spacewithin a cabinet that 4 provides temperature storage in the same range. s So, the term is used kind of in two ways 6 within the testprocedures at this point. And 7 DOE is proposing a "compartment" definition that s just clarifies that bothways are appropriate. 9 DOE is also proposing a clarification 10 that adjacent compartments require a subdividing 11 barrier. So, if you have two different 12 temperature zones within a compartment, those 13 would not be considered separate compartments, 14 even if theyhave different temperatures. You'd 1s need to have a subdividingbarrier in there for 16 them to be considered separate. 11 DOE is also proposing that if the 1s subdividingbarrier is moveable for testing, it 19 wouldbeplaced in its medianposition. 20 And then finally, as I'vementioned a 21 couple of times, DOE is proposing to clarifythat 22 compartment temperatures wouldbe determined at OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337678

1 72 degrees Fahrenheit, and this clarification 2 wouldbe included in Section 10 CFR 429 inwith 3 the certificationrequirements. 4 (Pause.) 5 MR. WATSON: Okay. So, nowwe're going 6 to Jump into the actual testing of theseproducts 7 and compartments. We're starting off with cellar 8 compartment, and theseprovisions also applied to g cooled cabinets. But this is kind of specific to 10 ifyou're testing a warm compartment, these are 11 theprocedures you'd follow. 12 So, first we have to define the "cellar 13 compartment." As I mentionedbefore, it has the 14 same temperature requirements as for a cooled 1s cabinet. Andyou can see it has the same 2 16 degree crossover, as long as theproduct operates 11 as high as 60 degrees Fahrenheit. 18 When testing cellar compartments, DOE is 19 proposing to use a standardized compartment 20 temperature of 55 degrees Fahrenheit. And this 21 is consistentwith existingregulations in 22 California, in Canada, with the AHAM standard, as OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337679

1 well as DOE test procedurewaivers. And DOE also 2 conductedmarket research to see if this 3 temperaturewas appropriate and found it to be 4 right in themiddle of the typical operating s range for these types of compartments. 6 (Pause.) 7 MR. WATSON: So, DOE requests comment on s whether that temperature is appropriate, 55 9 degrees for cellar compartments, and onwhether 10 anybodyhas input as to whether "cellar 11 compartment" is an appropriate term to define 12 thesewarmer compartments. 13 (Pause.) 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? No? 15 Yes, Joseph. 16 MR. FONTECCHIO: Just a slight comment. 17 When we talk about cellars or cooled cabinets, 18 we're circlingback to 72 degrees now. Arewe 19 saying that in the application of the test for 20 theseproducts, it's not going to be tested at 90 21 degrees whenyou have a cellar compartment? Or 22 how is that going to be donewhenyouhave a zone OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337680

1 

### that holds 39 and one that doesn't hold 39? Will 2 

### itbe tested at 90 degrees? 3 

### MR. WATSON: Right. So we'll be getting 4 

### into that. 5 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Okay. 6 

### MR. WATSON: So, across theboard, 72 7 

### degrees is used as the ambient for determining 8 

### compartment types. So that's where youwould g 

### check if it needs the temperature ranges included 10 

### in the definitions. 11 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Okay. 12 

### MR. WATSON: For testing, I wish I could 13 

### sayacross theboard it's at 90 degrees, because 14 

### that wouldbe easier. But for oneproduct type, 1s 

### we'reproposing testing at 72 degrees. And that 16 

### wouldjustbe for the non-compressor cooled 11 

### cabinets. Everything elsewouldbe tested at the 18 

### 90-degree ambient. Andwe'll get into the 19 

### justifications for that in a couple of slides. 20 21 22 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Thankyou. MR. BROOKMAN: Additional thoughts?

(No audible response.) OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337681

1 MR. WATSON: Another comment here from 2 theWeb, fromAndrew Sullivan, asking, "What 3 should thehumidity settingbe during testing?" 4 I don't know that off the top of my head. s Detlef? 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 7 Control of humidity is a new concept in 8 the discussion of DOE test procedures. Well, not g maybe

-- I mean, humidity certainly is, for some 10 test procedures, the ambient condition is 11 specified at a humidity level. However, 12 residential refrigerator test procedures do not 13 specifywhat to do with internal humidity 14 controls. And as I say, it's a new concept for 1s residential refrigerators. 16 Theproposal doesn't have anything for 11 that. DOE's general test procedures for 18 refrigerators, refrigerator-freezers, and 19 freezers do not have anything for that other than 20 general guidance associatedwithuser-operable 21 features, which it's hard to saywhether they 22 wouldbe fully applicable for something like OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337682

1 humidity control. 2 So this is something that certainlywe 3 would like some comment on. It's not something 4 that's part of this proposal. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Anything additional here? 6 (No audible response.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 8 MR. WATSON: Okay. Continuing onwith g the cellar compartmentproposals. DOE is 10 proposing that temperature sensorplacement for 11 cellar compartments be consistent with the 12 specifications in theAHAM standard for wine 13 chiller compartments. 14 And I believe this is also consistent 1s with the setups required for testing fresh food 16 compartments. 11 DOE is also proposing that cellar 18 compartments with separate temperature controls, 19 thosewouldbe tested as special compartments 20 during testing if the cellar compartment makes up 21 less thanhalf the refrigerator volume. So if 22 it's not a hybridproduct, it's not a cooled OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337683

1 cabinet, thenyouwould treat the cellar 2 compartment as a special compartment, as included 3 already in the existing test procedures for 4 refrigerators and refrigerator-freezers. s DOE is also proposing to use temperature 6 settings that are similar to the existing 7 requirements. So the first test wouldbe 8 conducted at the median temperature setting. The g second test wouldbe conducted at either the 10 warmest or the coldest setting, depending on all 11 of the average compartment temperatures at the 12 median settings. 13 So, if all compartments are cooler than 14 the standardized compartment temperatures, the 1s second test wouldbe conducted at thewarmest 16 temperature setting. Otherwise, the second test 11 is conducted at the coldest temperature setting. 18 DOE then is proposing similar energy 19 calculations to account for cellar compartments. 20 So, consistent with the existingprovisions for 21 refrigerators and freezers, you take the results 22 of the test at both the mid and either the cold OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337684

1 or thewarm setting. Thenyou interpolate the 2 energyuse to the standardized compartment 3 temperature. And DOE proposes that whatever 4 compartment gives you thehighest energyusebe s used as the overall energyuse for the product. 6 So, that slide kind of covered a lot of 7 bullet points in a row. Any comment on the 8 temperaturemeasurements, the appropriate control 9 settings for cellar compartments, and the 10 inclusion of cellar compartments and the overall 11 energy-use calculation? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Joseph. 13 MR. FONTECCHIO: Just to be clear, if the 14 cellar compartment is less than 50 percent of the 1s space, you do not need tomeasure it, because 16 it's going to be controlledmore soby the 17 primaryrefrigerated space. 18 MR. WATSON: Correct. And itwouldbe

-- 19 itwould need to be set at its coldest 20 temperature setting, so themaximum energyuse 21 condition. And I think that's the current 22 requirement for specialized compartments. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337685

1 MR. FONTECCHIO: Thankyou. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 3 Just adding some clarification. If the 4 cellar compartment of such a unit does not have 5 control, thenyouwouldn't have tomeasure its 6 temperature andyouwouldn't have any set point 7 to worry about. If ithas a setting, itwouldbe 8 treated as a special compartment. And so as Troy g said, the coldest setting, unless ituses heat 10 addition for anypart of its control, inwhich 11 caseyou average the coldest andwarmest. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. There's a lot of 13 content here. Any additional thoughts, comments 14 on thesepoints? 15 (No audible response.) 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional. Okay. 17 MR. WATSON: Okay. For cellar 18 compartment volumes, DOE is proposing tomeasure 19 volume consistent with the current requirements 20 for fresh food compartments. In determining 21 adjustedvolume from the total refrigerated 22 volume, DOE is proposing that, in cooled OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337686

1 cabinets, the volume adjustment factor justbe 2 one. Those products aremade entirelyof cellar 3 compartments. 4 For hybridproducts, however, the volume s adjustment factor wouldbe 0.69, and that's based 6 on the ratio of the differencebetween ambient 7 temperature and standardizedcompartment 8 temperature for both the cellar compartment and a 9 fresh food compartment. 10 And one thing to note here is this method 11 is consistentwithhow the volume adjustment 12 factor was determined for freezers and 13 refrigerator-freezers, except that one is greater 14 than one because there's a greater difference 1s between a freezer compartment temperature and 16 ambient, compared to the fresh food compartment. 11 And then the final proposal here, if a 18 compartment is capable of operating either as 19 cellar, fresh food, and-or freezer compartment, 20 DOE proposes that the highest energy-useposition 21 be tested. And that's consistent with the 22 existing requirements for convertible OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337687

1 compartments inAppendixA. 2 (Pause.) 3 MR. WATSON: So again, request for 4 comment here, thevolume adjustment factors for s cooled cabinets andhybridproducts. And then a 6 request for comment onhow to address these if 7 they are convertible compartments. 8 (Pause.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. No comments here? 10 Okay. 11 MR. WATSON: Okay. Now, moving those 12 proposals all addressed cellar compartments 13 specifically. Now we'removing to cooled 14 cabinets, wherewe have a product that's 1s consisting entirelyof cellar compartments. So 16 these, DOE considered appropriate ambient 17 temperatures and the appropriateusage adjustment 18 factor for theseproducts. 19 DOE notes that existing test procedures, 20 the CSA andAHAM standards, use the 90-degree 21 ambient and also applyusage adjustment factor of 22 0.85. So DOE conducted some testingboth in the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337688

1 lab and in the field to determine whether these 2 conditions and usage factors are appropriate. 3 You can seehere that it looks like the 0.85 4 factor may overestimate actual energyuse. s Whenyou look at operation in a typical 6 room ambient of 72 degrees, compared to operation 7 in the 90-degree ambient used for the test 8 procedure, energy consumption is almost double. g In all cases, itwas, on average, more than 10 double, the energyuse at 72 degrees Fahrenheit. 11 So that suggests that that 0.85 usage factor may 12 be too high for these types of products. 13 However, one thing to note here is that 14 the test results usage factors don't account for 1s additional thermal loads for things like door16 openings or insertingwarm food or drinks into 11 the compartment. 18 So based on that test data, DOE does 19 propose to use a 90-degree ambient condition for 20 vapor compression cooled cabinets. However, DOE 21 wouldupdate the usage factor to a value of 0.55. 22 And that's based on the average 0.46 ratio that OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337689

1 was shown in the laboratory test data. But it 2 wouldbemultipliedby a usage factor of 1.2 to 3 account for those additional thermal loads. So, 4 0.46 times 1.2 gives you the overall 0.55 usage s factor that DOE is proposing. 6 So, I guess at this point it's a good 7 spot to ask for comment onwhether the 90 degrees 8 Fahrenheit is appropriate for these cooled 9 cabinets andwhether the 0.55 is an appropriate 10 usage factor. 11 (Pause.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments from here? If 13 you think it's a good idea, it's okay to say so. 14 (Laughter.) 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 11 Manufacturing. 18 You took an average of

-- to get to 0.46, 19 correct? But you also have some numbers that are 20 substantially above that, 0.56, 0.53 on that 21 chart. That's putting it inyour an average 22 maynot be exactlywhat you wouldwant to do it OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 statisticallyto comeup with that number. I'm 2 veryconcerned about that number, because ifyou 3 do two sigmavariation from those, where do you 4 really fall? 5 MR. WATSON: Just to clarify, areyou 6 suggesting

-- 7 MR. HON: I'mnot sure that that 0.45 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, turnyour 9 microphone on, please. 10 MR. HON: I'mnot sure that that factor, 11 what you'reusing, 0.46 factor as an average of 12 all those components, do youhave statistical 13 validity there? Because they lookprettymuch 14 flat. There's no bell curve formation here that 1s says, "This is truly a mean." 16 I seepretty flat numbers, which ifyou 17 try to comeupwith some statistical validity 1s there, there's not enoughpoints to reallydo 19 that andyou reallydon't knowwhere your long20 termmeanwouldbebecause they'rejustpretty 21 much you've got a couple of 0.40's, 0.56, 22 0. 5 3 . OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 9091

1 So out of eight samples, whenyou have 2 that biga variation, an averagemay ormaynot 3 be statisticallyvalid, just to come up with a 4 number. You may need to have a biggernumber s base soyou can get a true understanding. Is it 6 a skewed curve? Is itjust a flat situation? I 7 don't knowwhere this comes from. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 9 I guess, you know, let's kind of go 10 through the discussionhere and seewhetherwe 11 can get to a point wherewe canpotentiallyhave 12 some suggestions that DOE could consider as 13 alternative for the test. 14 Now, historically, when residential 1s refrigerator test procedures were initially 16 developed, the approach to deal with the 17 additional thermal loads was to use an elevated 18 ambient temperature with closeddoors. And there 19 were some reasons for that. 20 That approachwas then extended to other 21 products that

-- such as freezers. And therewas 22 a recognition that, you know, the additional OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337692

1 thermal loads associatedwith freezers are 2 overestimatedby the 90-Fahrenheit ambient. And 3 then, so the usage factors were applied to try to 4 get back to what people thought were the right s values. 6 For cooled cabinets that have vapor 7 compression systems, they generally canmaintain s their intended compartment temperatures in their 9 90-Fahrenheit ambient because vapor compression 10 systems have good capacity. And DOE is aware 11 that the IEC has gone in that direction for 12 cooled cabinets, using the 90-Fahrenheit ambient 13 Andpart of the reason for stickingwith that for 14 the vapor compression cooled cabinets is to try 1s to maintain that international harmonization. 16 So then the question is, what is the 17 appropriate adjustment factor? DOE conducted 18 eight laboratory tests to get a sense for the 19 difference between a 72-Fahrenheit and a 90- 20 Fahrenheit test. These are some numbers. If 21 there are other numbers that peoplehave that 22 would leadus to what couldbe considered a OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337693

1 better number or a more accurate number, 2 certainly, you know, that's information that we 3 coulduse. 4 Ultimately, I would submit that itmakes s sense to select oneparticularnumber rather than 6 to have the number varybased on the 7 characteristics of theparticularproduct. 8 So I guess I'll leave it at that and see 9 if there are other comments. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Joseph. 11 MR. FONTECCHIO: It is based onhistory, 12 right? So if the refrigerator didn't have an 13 adjustment factor, anupright freezer has 0.85 14 and a chest freezer has 0.7. So howdid those 1s numbers come to pass? Was itjust the 16 recommendation that therewas enough door-opening 11

-- or the infrequency of door-openings would de18 rate those adjustment factors? 19 And nowyou've gone ahead and created a 20 testparadigm, andyou've come up with a number. 21 It's different than theway the other two were 22 assigned. And so, it's just a great gap from OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337694

1 where, let's say, Canada and the CEC hadbeen 2 monitoring for the last fewyears. 3 So just, you know, want to see if this 4 movement is based in reason compared to theway s the adjustment factor hadpreviouslybeen defined 6 for those other categories. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Wouldyou suggest either a s differentmethod or a different factor? 9 MR. FONTECCHIO: I mean, it's good to use 10 real data. It's just that, is this depicted 11 accurately enough for this segment in this short 12 order of time? There are some concerns. 13 MR. HON: This is CharlieHon. 14 I'mvery concerned about just, you have 1s eight pieces of data. That's not a statistical 16 realm of themarket. Eight individual tests 17 whereyouwould come upwith a number. There are 1s a lotmore manufacturers out there, a lotmore 19 products out there than eight. 20 So I'm concerned thatmaybe I don't know 21 all the characteristics of each of the eight 22 systems. Are they all identical systems? Do OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337695

1 theyhave differences in theway theywere 2 constructed, control systems?

-- all of which 3 would change that variable number. 4 Andyoumaybemissing sectors of the 5 market that you didn't test. I just am very 6 uncomfortablewith an eight-point data system 7 which is changingnational standards. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, what shouldDOE do, 9 Charlie? 10 MR. HON: Unfortunately, it's going to 11 the correct answer is a lot of testing or a lot 12 of data. And that's not easily attainable 13 without an incurred cost. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Joseph, youwere going to 15 add on? 16 MR. FONTECCHIO: In theNOPR, you 11 describehowyouuse the energy allowancebased 1s on the California formula or the Canadian 19 formula. And the two products you initially 20 testedgave you this insight that the adjustment 21 factor maybe grossly overestimated. 22 We really don't have anyvisibility, were OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337696

1 thoseproducts tested. Orwhat happens to 2 products that aren't listedwithCalifornia, 3 their range ofperformance? Perhaps they don't 4 pass the Californiavalues or the Canadian s values, so they're not exported and they're not 6 sold into those states. 7 I guess these eight that we sampled, do s they represent all of theproducts that are used 9 inNorthAmerica? Or is this just ones that were 10 from Canada, approved in California? Where do 11 these cabinets come from? 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: This lS Detlef. 13 The list of eight is described a little M bitmore fully. I don't think thebrand and 1s names andmodels are given, but they're described 16 more fully in the preliminaryTSD. But they are 11 from a range of products that are within the CEC**~** database. 19 They are all, as far as I know, all 20 single-compressor, vapor-compression. There are 21 different styles of evaporators and condensers 22 represented, different sizes. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337697

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Joseph. 2 MR. FONTECCHIO: Just lastly, so there is 3 the opportunity that there are other equipment 4 that isn't in the CEC database that's not being s given a fair picturingwith this. These are 6 cabinets that have beenknown to be certified to 7 a standard and are allowed for sale into Canada. 8 But there are other cooled cabinets that 9 are for sale thatmay ormaynot pass those 10 standards today. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: My understanding is that 12 there are very few cooled cabinets sold in the 13 U.S. that are not sold in California and Canada, 14 that we've had commentary in thepast that, 1s essentially, it's a NorthAmericanmarket. 16 But the other question I wouldhave is, 11 do you think the 0.55 is too high or too low? 18 And 

### if it is too high or too low, howwould that 19

-- would that be unfair to some of those 20 manufacturers that might haveproducts that are a 21 littlebit different? 22 MR. FONTECCHIO: You know, probably OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337698

1 tomorrow, the 0.55 number comes back in the TSD. 2 And that's what you use to normalize the CEC 3 efficiency level to begin the efficiency level 4 status. So, itbecomes a verypowerful factor s with assigning the range of cabinets and the 6 different energy levels. 7 So, I think it's good to have a 8 conversation about where it came from, what's 9 best, andhow that number is used. 10 In the example of adjustment factor, it's 11 a very liberal number. But if that factor is 12 used in a different realm to drop down the energy 13 levels or efficiency levels, then it canbe a 14 verydangerous number because it's near half. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef again. 16 So, looking at the overall picture, we're 11 taking the test that they currentlyuse, changing 18 from 0.85 to 0.55. When we look at the energy 19 conservation standard, we look at -- you know, 20 andwe'll get into this tomorrow. We look at the 21 current California standard and call that sort of 22 a CEC equivalent. Youmight think of it as a OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-337699

1 baseline. Andwe adjust it in the sameway. 2 So, we're essentially talking about the 3 same test; it's just a different number. We're 4 using the conversion from 0.85 to 0.55 for both. 5 Now, ifwe changed to a 72-Fahrenheit 6 ambient test, then I think theremight bewinners 7 and losers, because

-- but that's not what we're s doinghere. So I'mjust trying to understand, 9 you know, if there's a reason for your concern 10 where I don't understand someunfairness that 11 we're injecting into the systemhere that I 12 shouldbe understanding. 13 So that's why I'masking the follow-up. 14 MR. HON: Our concern is basically that 1s you're takingwhat was described as pieces of 16 equipment that met the Canadian andAHAM's and 17 the California standard. There are otherpieces 1s of equipment that are sold in themarket away 19 from those states or oblivious to those state 20 regulations whichmay ormaynot be inyour 21 calculation factor here. 22 So, instead of a 0.55 factor, youmaybe OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376100

1 puttingon a 0.6 factor onto some equipment 2 that's alreadypresently in themarket. We don't 3 know the data on that becausewe have not -- 4 everythingwe've testedwould fall close to these s ranges. But we know that there are otherpeople 6 in themarket who do

-- are very small

-- and a 7 lot of theseproducts arevery smallmarket s sectors compared to what we're looking at inhome g refrigeration, certainlynot thevolume involved. 10 But we just don't know the statistics of 11 itbecause you're using a section of themarket, 12 which is the better section of themarket, and 13 there's another section above that which is less 14 efficient that has not beenput intoyour 1s calculations. 16 Because theyhad to havemet a standard 11 line here to be in California and Canada. There 1s has to be there's a baseline there. But since 19 this is presently a non-regulatednational 20 market, you've eliminated a lot of numbers here, 21 whichmay impact your total viewpoint of the 22 market. Just because Californiahas a standard, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376101

1 I don't knowwhat percentage of product is not 2 sellable inCalifornia. I don't knowwhat's not 3 sellable in Canada. 4 But we're certainlynowgoing to put -- s thoseproducts that are not sellable in 6 California and Canada are now going to be huge 7 decrease in energy consumption to meet anynew s national standards. 9 And from a viewpoint

-- I'mjust trying 10 to be fair here, saying I don't knowwhat the 11 ramifications of themarket are. Is it going to 12 hurt our company tremendously? No. But it 13 could. If we'd startplaying some other, more 14 specializedproducts with special features in 1s them, these numbers couldbe very damaging. 16 MR. WATSON: So if I couldjump in, I 17 think fromwhat I understand, it sounds like this 1s might bemore of an issue in the standard side of 19 things that we could address in tomorrow's public 20 meeting, where those products might not fall in 21 with the efficiency levels that we determine 22 based on CEC data or something like that. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376102

1 

### MR. HON: Right. Right. CharlieHon 2 

### again. 3 

### Butyou'vebrought itup in this meeting, 4 

### so it needs tobe addressed in this meeting. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. The underlying 6 

### comment, though, is the derivation of the factor. 7 

### MR. HON: Yes. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 9 

### I thinkwe've covered this now. I'm 10 

### ready tomove on. If anybody objects to that 11 

### let'smove on. 12 

### Joe. 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Thenyou should say, too, 14 

### that, you know, wewelcome any data that you can 1s 

### provide to helpus giveus guidance onwhat that 16 

### number shouldbe, right? 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Exactly. Yeah. 18 

### MR. WATSON: And then, not to get back on 19 

### the same topic, but we got a comment from the 20 

### Webinar. 21 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. MR. WATSON: Askingwhere the 1.2 usage OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376103

1 factor came from. And that's supposed to 2 represent loading and door-openings. And DOE 3 lacks good data onwhat the usage factor wouldbe 4 associatedwith those door-openings. The 1.2 was s determined as the ratio of the usage factor for 6 upright freezers compared to chest freezers. 7 And the idea is that chest freezers s likelywouldn't have as many door-openings or as 9 frequent loading of warmpackages, whereas 10 upright freezers wouldprobablyhavemore 11 frequent door-openings. 12 And DOE expects that the usage for cooled 13 cabinets wouldprobablybe similar to upright 14 freezers. So we took the ratio of those usage 1s factors to try to separate out the door-opening 16 and loading thermal load. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. 19 Do you have any average -- I'm trying to 20 get a feel for this one. Do you have anywhat 21 you would consider normal amount of door-openings 22 in an 8- or 24-hour period in that logic? OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376104

1 MR. WATSON: No. So this is based on the 2 existingusage factors in the freezers' test 3 procedure inAppendixB. 4 MR. HON: Right. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I would think the 6 manufacturers have, whether theywant to disclose 7 it or not, data onwhat their expectations are of s usagepatterns and the like. And, boy, itwould g bemost useful to disclose, whether it's under an 10 NDA orhoweveryouwant to do it, to provide that 11 to the Department of Energy so they can get these 12 usage factors close to themark. 13 I saw somebody else. Yes, Joseph. 14 MR. FONTECCHIO: Just onemore time. The 1s 20 percent was the difference inwhat two values? 16 MR. WATSON: So, the usage factors for 11 upright freezers dividedby the usage factor for 1s chest freezers. And those are 0.85 and 0.7, 19 respectively. 20 MR. FONTECCHIO: So, it's difficult to 21

-- we need a number to have for adjustment for a 22 product that holds this temperatureband. So OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-33761 this 20 percent add-onnow is related to those 2 numbers that come fromperceiveddoor openings; 3 is that correct? If a refrigeratorhas got one 4 factor, the freezer has got 0.85 of it and the 5 chest has got 0.7? 6 So, previously, 0.85 was the number for 7 California and Canada. And nowwe want to drop s down to 0.55? It's justhard to understandhow, g what you did things before, to now completely 10 switch to takepart of it and then take the 11 standard averagingnumber. Is it accurate? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: It seems likewe need to 13 provide time for ya'll to develop these as 14 written comments. 15 MR. FONTECCHIO: Yes. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't thinkwe're 11 gainingground on it now. I want tomove on. 18 MR. HAGERMAN: No, I agreewith that. 19 Andyou know, these are a startingpoint, right? 20 So this is ourmethodology for comingupwith, 21 you know, a strawman, a bogey, whatever, right? 22 Comment. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 105106

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 2 MR. HAGERMAN: Give us data. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: And the Department really 4 appreciate your, yeah, detailed comments here. 5 MR. WATSON: And twomore comments from 6 theWebinar. These are fromMichele Crociani 1 again. The first says that, "For some absorption s refrigerators at 90 degrees Fahrenheit ambient, 9 it is impossible to work." 10 And then the next also says that, "For 11 chemical reasons, raising the ambient temperature 12 is not the same as opening doors many times, 13 because gas mixes are less performance at 90 M degrees Fahrenheit." 1s And I think the next sectionwe're about 16 to ]Ump into will address these comments, where 11 we talk about the non-compressor cooled cabinets. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 19 MR. WATSON: So, as the comments stated, 20 certain technologies maynot be able to operate 21 in the 90-degree Fahrenheit ambient. So, DOE 22 conducted testing on three non-compressor cooled OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376107

1 cabinets. And from that testing, DOE has a 2 concern that testing at 90-degree ambient would 3 not give representative results for those 4 products. s So you could seehere, DOE conducted the 6 same testing at 72 degrees and 90 degrees. And 7 there wasn't a consistent ratio of energyuse s between those two ambient temperatures likewe g saw for the compressorproducts. 10 So for these, itvaries widely. For the 11 first product there, it used over four times as 12 much energy at thewarmer conditions. For 13 product 3, ituses just about the same amount of 14 energy inboth conditions. 1s And the reason for this, it'sbecause few 16 units are actually able tomaintain the 55-degree 17 temperature at 90 degrees. So, for example, unit 18 3, it looks like itwas alreadyworking as hard 19 as it could tomaintain compartment temperatures 20 at the 72-degree Fahrenheit. When the ambient 21 was increased to 90, compartment temperatures 22 increased, itwas stillworkingjust as hard. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376108

1 And that's whyyou endupwith the same energy2 use result. 3 Sobased on these test results, DOE feels 4 that it's not appropriate to test non-compressor s cooled cabinets at the same 90-degree Fahrenheit 6 condition. Instead, it is proposing to test 7 theseproducts at 72 degrees Fahrenheit. 8 And then, the onlyusage adjustment 9 factor that wouldneed to be applied there is for 10 the door-openings and thewarmer loading. And 11 that wouldbe the 1.2 that we discussed on the 12 last slide. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? 14 MR. WATSON: I'll leave it on this slide. 1s But, yeah, any comments on the non-compressor 16 cooled cabinet proposal? 11 (No audible response.) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 19 MR. HON: I'm looking at these numbers. 20 And this is a bit of a quandary. I'mgoing to be 21 looking at this from a food-safety standpoint. 22 Okay. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376109

1 If you're not capable, you do not have 2 any excess capacitybuilt intoyour system, as 3 your numbers here indicate, there's very limited 4 capacityon some of these otherpieces of s equipment so that they cannot copewith an 6 increase in temperature. Yet, we're allowing for 7 warmproduct to beput inside the cabinet. 8 Have you done any discussions as far as 9 how

-- basically, to do it safely, youhave to 10 figure out -- okay. Normally, if a warmproduct 11 is put into a refrigerator andbrought to safe 12 food temperature, youwant about a four-hour 13 maximum time window for food-safety reasons. 14 Yet, from these numbers, I'm seeing the 1s fact that these products, some of theseproducts 16 maynot have enough capacity to cool down non17 previously-refrigeratedproduct for a very 1s extendedperiod of time, because the capacities 19 arejustnot there in those numbers. 20 MR. WATSON: Just to clarifyhere, this 21 is specifically for cooled cabinets. 22 MR. HON: I see. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376110

1 MR. WATSON: So the target temperature in 2 these is 55 degrees Fahrenheit. 3 MR. HON: Right. Okay. 4 MR. WATSON: So, the sameprovisions for s excess loadmight not be included in these 6 products as for other refrigerators. 7 MR. HON: Okay. Because it's really s marginal stuff to get to 55 here. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have any additional 10 there's a request for comment. Additional 11 thoughts, questions, comments on this content? 12 (No audible response.) 13 MR. WATSON: Okay. Anotherproposal for 14 cooled cabinets here. This one is regarding 1s light bulb energyuse. So, DOE is aware that 16 there are some differences regardinghow this 17 wouldbe addressed in testing. The CSA standard 1s requires that the light bulbwouldbe tested on 19 and off, and then the results averaged. 20 TheAHAM standard, which is referencedby 21 Appendices AandB, requires that features that 22 are not required for normal operationbe set in OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376111

1 their lowest energy-use state. So in that case, 2 it wouldbe off. 3 And LBNL further conducted a survey to 4 investigate lightbulb energyuse and found that s consumers leave the light switch off in 90 6 percent ofproducts. 7 So, based on these surveyresults and for s consistencywith theAHAM standard, which is g referenced inAppendices Aand B, DOE is 10 proposing to test cooled cabinets with the light 11 bulb switch off, or in the lowest energy-use 12 position if there's no hard on-off switch. 13 DOE requests comment on this proposal. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: So, we ought to be able to 1s get a comment yea or nay on this, yes? 16 MR. FONTECCHIO: We like this one. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou, Joseph. I hate 19 to force yourhand. 20 Other comments from stakeholders on this 21 one? 22 (No audible response.) OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376112

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 MR. WATSON: Okay. So that wraps up 3 cooled cabinets. 4 Now we'removing on to thenon-compressor s refrigerators. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: JoannaMauer has a 7 question or a comment. s Joanna, please. 9 MS. MAUER: Goingback to the testing of 10 cooled cabinets, it seems to us that itwouldbe 11 muchbetter to test all cooled cabinets under the 12 same ambient temperature conditions, soboth 13 vapor compression, as well as thermoelectric 14 products. 1s And our initial thought, at least, is 16 that itwouldbebetter to test all products at 11 72 degrees. We recognize kind of thebenefits of 1s harmonization and theprecedent of testing 19 refrigerators at 90 degrees. But 72 degrees is 20 certainlymuchmore representative ofhow these 21 products are actuallyused in the field. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou, Joanna. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376113

1 MR. WATSON: Andjust to clarify there, 2 whenyou say "test all products at 72," areyou 3 referring to just these newproposals that DOE 4 has included in this NOPR? As opposed to the s existing tests for refrigerators and 6 refrigerator-freezers? 7 MS. MAUER: So I don't have a specific s comment now. I mean, I think it certainlyraises g the question going forward of whether itwould 10 make sense to test all types of refrigerators and 11 freezers at 72 degrees to better represent field 12 conditions and something that we can thinkmore 13 about. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. WATSON: Thankyou. 16 Okay. So on to non-compressor 17 refrigerators. 18 The first issue, again, is ambient 19 temperature. Andhere, DOE notes that it expects 20 consumers to use non-compressor refrigerators in 21 the sameway that consumers woulduse existing 22 refrigerators or refrigerator-freezers. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376114

1 So, because the 90-degree Fahrenheit 2 ambient condition is supposed to account for 3 consumer usage, DOE is proposing to apply that 4 again for non-compressor refrigerators. And then s thesewould thenhave a usage adjustment factor 6 of 1.0, because the intent is for the ambient at 7 90 to capture all of the usage factors. s One thing to point out here is that DOE 9 tested several of these non-compressor 10 refrigerators and found that, at an ambient 11 temperature of 90 degrees, nonewere capable of 12 maintaining internal compartment temperatures 13 near 39 degrees Fahrenheit. And I think they all 14 were 8 or 9 degrees, at least, higher than that. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Wow. 16 MR. WATSON: So, to account for this in 11 testing, DOE considereduse of the extrapolation 1s approach that's currently inAppendices Al and 19 Bl. These are the older test procedures where, 20 under testing, compartment temperatures don't 21 reach the target value, but those test procedures 22 woulduse an extrapolation to workback to the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376115

1 standardized compartment temperatures. 2 However, for these non-compressor 3 refrigerators, a lot of times using that 4 extrapolation approach results inunreasonable 5 energy-usevalues. So DOE found it wouldn't be 6 appropriate in these cases. 7 So, given that, DOE proposes that nons compressor refrigerators that aren't capable of 9 reaching that standardized compartment 10 temperature, theywould onlybe tested at the 11 cold setting. And then the energyuse as 12 measured at that settingwouldbe the result for 13 that unit. 14 Then, because the compartment 15 temperatures aren't reaching the 39-degree 16 Fahrenheit, DOE felt that it shouldbe noted 11 somewhere. So DOE is proposing that the 1s compartment temperaturemaintained during testing 19 be reported in the certificationreport. 20 And another thing to point out here, even 21 though the compartment temperatures aren't 22 reaching the 39-degree at the 90-degree ambient OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376116

1 condition, theseproducts wouldmaintain that 2 compartment temperature in an ambient of 72 3 because theywouldbe required to do that to even 4 fall under this category of non-compressor s refrigerator. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 7 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. 8 Question for you. You're saying that g theywouldbe required to include in their report 10 that they couldn'tmaintain 39 degrees Fahrenheit 11 inhere. But is there anywarning labelingbeing 12 considered to warn customers that if theywould 13 apply these in other than the 72-degree 14 environment, they couldbe jeopardizing food 1s safety? 16 MR. WATSON: Not in this proposal, but I 17 think that wouldbe an issue for FTC or something**~** other than DOE. 19 And on the standard side of things, 20 that's something that we'dwelcome coming on as 21 regarding consumer utilityand things like that. 22 MR. HON: I have a serious concern about OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376117

1 that because the theoretical 72 is a nice thing. 2 But you get into elderlypeople, and theydon't 3 keep theirbuildings at 72 degrees. There are 4 peoplewho don't have air conditioning. There s are people that put units in garages. So this is 6 -- this scares me. Because these are compressor 7 refrigerators. They're not a 55-degree s temperature. 9 MR. WATSON: Just to clarify, these are 10 non-compressor refrigerators. But, yeah, they 11 wouldbe consideredrefrigerators. 12 MR. HON: Non-compressor refrigerators. 13 Theywouldbe consideredrefrigerators capable of 14 protecting food. Am I correct here? 15 MR. WATSON: Yeah. Andjust to clarify, 16 this is based onproducts that are already out 17 there. So this is based onwhat's on themarket. 18 MR. HON: Okay. 19 MR. WATSON: Any additional comments on 20 theproposal for non-compressor refrigerators? 21 (No audible response.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376118

1 MR. WATSON: Now, anotherproposal 2 addressingnon-compressor products. The current 3 Appendices AandBrequire testperiods, 4 stabilizationperiods, temperature-averaging s periods that arebased on complete compressor 6 cycles. However, because these types of products 7 don't have compressors, those terms aren't 8 appropriate. 9 So DOE proposes to clarify that, in the 10 test procedures where there's a reference to 11 compressor cycles, that applies to both a 12 compressor cycling, as well as just a 13 refrigeration systemcycling. And the same 14 requirements wouldbe applied to both compressor 1s units and non-compressor units. 16 Any comments there onwhether that's an 17 appropriate clarification? 18 (No audible response.) 19 MR. WATSON: Okay. Andwe're goingback 20 to the extrapolation approach for products other 21 than the non-compressor refrigerators. So 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just pardonme OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376119

1 

### for interrupting. 2 

### MR. WATSON: Sure. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's get a read onwhere 4 

### we are. We'vebeen at this for two hours now. s 

### We're a littlemore thanhalfway through the 6 

### slides at this point. We're going to take a 7 

### break for lunchherebefore too long. s 

### I'mwonderingwhetherwe want to keep 9 

### doing this for another littlebit orwhetherwe 10 

### want tobreak shortly. What is your general 11 

### sense? Two hours is typically about the 12 

### attention span ofmost extraordinaryhumans. So 13 

### before long, we're going to have to take a break. 14 

### Do youwant to keep going right now, or 1s 

### do youwant to take a break for lunch right now? 16 

### MR. HAGERMAN: You know, Doug also forgot 11 

### to tell you that we have a wonderful cafeteria.**~** 

### (Laughter.) 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We do have a good 20 

### cafeteriahere. 21 

### Yes? 22 

### MR. GOPAL: Yeah, I think the agenda said OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376120

1 12:30 I SO - - 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we'll stickwith 3 the agenda then. We'll go till about 12:30. 4 We'll go for a littlewhile longer. s I'mnoting that some of the complicated 6 concepts here, we're not getting as much comment 7 as we might ifwe were fresh, is my hypothesis. s But let's plug on for a littlebit g further. Okay. Keep going. 10 MR. WATSON: Okay. So, back to the 11 extrapolation approach. 12 Now that DOE is proposing that the 13 product types be determinedunder a 72-degree 14 ambient temperature condition, certainproducts 1s might run into not meeting the standardized 16 temperatures at the 90-degree ambient temperature 17 during testing. 1s So, previously, based on the interim 19 final rule in 2010, theseproducts wouldjust 20 receive no rating if they couldn'tmaintain the 21 standard temperatures at 90 degrees Fahrenheit. 22 But now, with the clarification, theseproducts OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376121

1 would receive ratings, andDOE is proposing a 2 method to attribute an appropriate energies to 3 theseproducts. 4 So, DOE is proposing to use the same s extrapolation approach ifproducts are not able 6 tomaintain the standardized temperatures at 90 7 degrees Fahrenheit. And this would apply to all 8 theproducts other than those non-compressor g refrigerators that we just discussed. 10 Also, one thing to note here is that DOE 11 is proposing a couple of restrictions on this 12 calculation, where thewarm test must have the 13 higher temperature and itmust have lower energy 14 use compared to the test at the cold settings. 1s And this prevents thewildly inaccurate energy16 use representations from the extrapolation. 17 Any comments here onwhether that 18 approach is appropriate?**~** (Pause.) 20 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments. Okay. 21 MR. WATSON: All right. Now we'll move 22 on to hybridproducts. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376122

1 This is all pretty similar to what we've 2 gone over for the otherunits. 

### . . DOE is proposing 3 a 90-degree ambient temperature for these 4 products. Andwhilewe had the 72-degree ambient s for the non-compressor cooled cabinets, all of 6 the hybridproducts, bydefinition, have at least 7 one ormore fresh food compartments or freezer s compartments. So the 90-degree ambient 9 temperature wouldbe appropriate for these. 10 DOE is proposing a usage adjustment 11 factor of 0.85 for theseunits. And that's 12 because DOE expects their usage to be similar to 13 that of cooled cabinets, because at least half of 14 theproduct is made up by a cellar compartment. 1s And then DOE is proposing the same logic 16 and energy-use calculation for testing these 11 products. For temperature control settings, it 1s wouldbe the same, where you used themedian 19 setting for the first test. Based on the results 20 of that test, youwould thenuse either thewarm 21 setting or the cold setting for the second test. 22 And then, DOE is proposing the same OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376123

1 interpolation calculation, or extrapolation if it 2 cannot maintain the compartment temperatures. So 3 you'duse the results of themid, cold, orwarm 4 tests to extrapolate or interpolate to the s standardizedcompartment temperature to determine 6 the overall energies for hybridproducts. 7 So, nothing too unique for hybrids, but 8 it pulls together some of theproposals for other g products. Any comments on these? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Joseph. 11 MR. FONTECCHIO: Just to clarify. So, 12 hybridmeans more than 50 percent is in the 55- 13 degree range. So, 0.85 is used in this example 14 as the adjustment factor for a product that's 1s majority above or in the 55-degreerange. Cooled 16 cabinets, it's 100 percent, andwe're currently 17 using 0.55. 18 So, there is another rift here between a 19 product that's, in essence, doing the same thing, 20 albeit there's a percentage of space at that 21 temperatureband. But the usage factor is a 22 drastic proportiondifferent. 0.85, if it's good OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376124

1 enough for the hybrid, seems to be

-- if it's 2 based around theusage, which is the door3 openings for a 55-degreemachine, then the cooled 4 cabinets shouldharmonize. This wouldbe the s proposal. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. WATSON: Just onepoint to clarifyon s that is theusage factors account for both the g door-openings in consumer usage, as well as 10 scalingback to the expected energyuse at the 11 72-degree Fahrenheit ambient. 12 For cooled cabinets with compressors, 13 there's a bigger energyhit in going from 72 to 14 90 degrees, because the compartment temperatures 1s are at 55 degrees Fahrenheit. Sowhenyou're 16 comparing that to the ambient, you're jumping 11 either 55 to 72, or 55 all thewayup to 90. 1s There's a bigger deltaT there. 19 So for these hybridproducts, at least 20 one compartment in theproduct has a lower 21 temperature, either fresh food or freezer. So 22 for those systems, it's a bit less of a hit OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376125

1 jumping from 72 to 90 degrees ambient. So for 2 that reason, theusage factor is higher. 3 And if there's any data that would 4 provide a better indication of what it shouldbe, 5 DOE definitelywelcomes that. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Joseph? 7 MR. FONTECCHIO: That's a great s explanation. It's about the definition, right? 9 And if greater than 50 percentmakes it a hybrid, 10 then remainingportion is what you'reusing to 11 rateup the adjustment factor, because it's 12 colder than 55. 13 Somaybe the number shouldbe, instead of 14 55 basedupon sampling cabinets that may ormay 15 not have beenuniversal for all products in the 16 U.S., then itmirrors how this number came to 11 pass. So a percentage of 0.85 to account for the 1s 100 percent being at 55. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional thoughts 20 here, comments? 21 22 (No audible response.) MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376126

1 MR. WATSON: Okay. Now I'll turn things 2 over to Detlef to go over the icemakers. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: We're at a natural break 4 point. Let's go to lunch. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to lunch, yes. 7 It's about 10 minutes after 12:00. We'll resume s here at 10 minutes after 1:00. 9 Most of you are familiar with the way 10 this works here in the Forrestal Building. You 11 must have this badge visible. This roomwill be 12 secured. You can leave your stuff here. 13 There are restrooms I didn't say it 14 this morning

-- onboth ends of the hall. 1s Becausewe haven't left hereyet this morning. 16 To get through the securityportal at the 11 big cafeteria, which is down to the ground floor 1s and about 100 yards in that direction, youmight 19 need an ID to get back through the security 

### w portal. 21 But otherwise, I thinkwe made good 22 progress today already. Andwe'll continue that OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376127

1 

### whenwe resume at 10minutes after 1:00. 2 

### MR. HAGERMAN: You should also say ifyou 3 

### don't want to go to the cafeteria, there's a 4 

### Subwaydown at the sameplaceyou got Dunkin s 

### Donuts. It's a lot easier to get to thanwalking 6 

### through the

-- underneath the 7 

### MR. HON: Visitors have to go through s 

### securitycomingback from the cafeteria. 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Ah, that's right. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, theydo. But since 11 

### you've got a badge, it's easier. Yeah. 12 

### Okay. We'll seeyoubackhere to start 13 

### up at 10 minutes after 1:00. 14 

### (Whereupon, at 12:13 p.m., a luncheon 1s 

### recess was taken, to resume at 1:15 p.m.) 16 

### AFTERNOON SESSION 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for being 1s 

### back on time from lunch. Let's resume. And 19 

### Deter is up there

-- Detlef, pardonme -- is up 20 

### there topresent. 21 

### Sir, I apologize, Detlef. 22 

### MR. WESTPHALEN: Thanks, Doug. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376128

1 MR. HAGERMAN: He has a newnickname now. 2 We have Deter. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: I've got a buddy; pardon s me. I got confused. Go ahead. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. I'llbe talking 7 about icemakers and then some of the additional 8 incidental items and other EPCA requirements that g are further on in the discussion. 10 But first of all, icemakers. So, DOE is 11 proposing test procedures for icemakers. And 12 that startswithproposing some definitions. 13 Some of these definitions borrow from the 14 commercial icemakingworld. Some are new, 1s because there different variations within the 16 residential icemaking space. 17 So the following definitions describing 18 the icemakers wouldbe included in 430.2, that 19 section of the CFR. First of all, "batch type," 20 this is an icemaker that makes its ice in cycles 21 with alternating freezing andharvestingperiods. 22 A "continuous-type icemaker," which continuously OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376129

1 makes ice, has sort of a combined evaporator2 auger type assembly that extrudes the ice out of 3 the top. 4 The next two terms, "cooled storage" and s "uncooled storage," refer toparticular types of 6 ways the icemaker deals withwhether it keeps 7 the ice cold, and also withhow itmakes the ice. 8 A "cooled storage icemaker" is more or 9 less, on the surface of it, a freezer inwhich 10 you have sort of residential-style crescent 11 automatic icemaker in it, maybe enhanced for 12 higher capacity. But thewhole space is kept 13 cool, including the bin, and the ice does not M melt after it's made. 1s The "uncooled storage icemaker" is a 16 type a littlebit more similar to commercial11 style icemakers, where the cold is applied 18 directly to what you might consider the icemold. 19 Thewater sort of trickles over the cold 20 evaporator and freezes. And then, once the ice 21 is harvested and dropped into thebin, thebin 22 itself is not kept cold. It's just the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376130

1 evaporator icemoldportion that's kept coldby 2 the refrigeration system. 3 "Portable icemaker" refers to an ice 4 maker that does not require a connection to a s water inlet andhas a reservoir onboard that will 6 be filledmanually in order toprovide the water 7 supply. s For test procedures, DOE proposes to 9 establishnew testprocedures for icemakers at 10 10 CFR 430.23(ee) and also to establish a new 11 AppendixBB that will have some of the detailed 12 test procedures with it. 13 And it shouldbementioned that the 14 testing is substantiallydifferent than the 1s testing for many of the otherproducts that we 16 talked about this morning. Hence, DOE is 11 proposing establishing the new appendix rather 1s than trying to fit this into the existing 19 Appendices A and B. 20 Some definitions associatedwith the test 21 procedure itself. And in this particularpage 22 here, we have a typo. In the "harvest" OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376131

1 definition, I believe it's correct in the notice. 2 "'Harvest' means theprocess of freeing or 3 removing icepieces from an icemaker, icemaking 4 mold, or evaporator." 5 I'mnot going to read through all of 6 these definitions. I thinkmany of them are 7 self-explanatory. Thepurpose ofproposing them 8 andputting them in the regulations is to try to g get some clarity for them. 

### w But I will talk about the "icemaking 11 cycle" definition. It's defined for batch-type 12 icemakers, whichundergo an ice-making cycle. 13 And it refers to "theperiod of time required to 14 produce and harvest onebatch of ice," and it is 1s defined to start shortly after a harvest or 16 immediately after a harvest, and then continue on 17 to the end of the next harvest.**~** A "replacement cycle" is defined for 19 uncooled-storage icemakers, includingportable 20 icemakers. And this definition is associated 21 with the measurement of the ice storage energy 22 use, whichwe'll get to a littlebit later, when OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376132

1 there isn't any active iceproduction going on to 2 fill thebin. It's just the icemaker responding 3 to somemeltage in thebin and replacement cycle 4 to refill thebin to its full level. s Andbasically, it refers to a period of 6 operation of icemaking, eitherwith a continuous 7 icemaker, a continuous cycle, or a continuous s operationwith a batch icemaker, one ormore 9 series of icemaking cycles until thebin sensor 10 is satisfied again and the icemaking stops. 11 I think at this point we have two 12 requests for comments, requesting comments on the 13 proposed definitions to this point. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? 15 Yes, Sriram. 16 MR. GOPAL: Yeah, I alluded to this 11 earlier, but I thinkwe have a real issuewith 1s including icemakers in this rulemaking at all. 19 We feel that these are such different products 20 that, you know, they really shouldbe a category 21 unto themselves. And if theyweremade a 22 categoryunto themselves, we don't feel that the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376133

1 energy savings are there to warrant anykind of 2 energy-relatedregulation on them. 3 Andwe'll bemaking comments to that 4 effect in ourwritten comments. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou. Are you 6 suggesting that theywouldn't

-- in the event 7 that they, energy efficiencyregulations, were s established, that the efficiency level is high 9 enough already that itwouldn't make a 10 difference? 11 MR. GOPAL: I'm saying the savings just 12 aren't there. Even ifyouwere to increase the 13 number of units that are in the field, that the 14 energy savings aren't there to warrant regulating 1s them. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional comments? There are a lot of definitions here. Additional comments on any of these? Charlie. MR. HON: Yeah. I have one comment on -- where is my OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376134

1 (Pause.) 2 MR. HON: Okay. Youhavebatch-type ice 3 makers. There's basicallytwo different batch4 type icemakers, onewhich is a fill-the-trough s and let thewater sit and freeze. 6 The second is a cascadewater across the 7 top of it, which is it does two things. s Number one, it removes minerals from the ice 9 because theminerals stay in the liquid. You 10 actually get thepurerwater freezes against the 11 coils, and theminerals tend to wash off and are 12 ejecteddown a drain. 13 And that gets into discussions, secondary 14 discussions onwater efficiency, becauseyou 1s always have a certain amount of high-mineral 16 waterbeing flushed down the drain after each 11 cycle. 18 The second is the type of ice. Because 19 whenyou do that, whenyou run the cycles with a 20 cascadewaterfall effect, you endupwith a very 21 high-quality icewithout mineral content in it. 22 And it is very clear andprecise-looking andhas OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376135

1 a market applicationbecause of the nature of the 2 cube that comes out of it. 3 So they are totallydifferent in theway 4 theywork, and there aremajor differences in the 5 amount of energy consumedbecause of the 6 different technologies. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you suggesting that s there shouldbe two batch-type definitions? 9 MR. HON: It could easilybe split in 10 half. Themajority of theproducts in the home 11 market, depending onwhereyour applicationmay 12 be

-- because ifyou go to California andwater 13 restrictions, they don't want the cascade-type 14 products becauseyou lose 20 to 30 percent of 15 yourwater down the drain on every cycle. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 17 MR. HON: But becauseyou've chilled that 1s water, too, youhave to dump out coldwater. So 19 it's a different beast. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Um-hrn. Okay. Thanks, 21 Charlie. 22 JohnMyers is apparently

-- who has a OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376136

1 comment or a question, who is joiningus online. 2 John, speak andwe'll hope to hear you. 3 MR. MYERS: Yes. This is JohnMyers, 4 Manitowoc Ice, Manitowoc Food Service Group. s I concurwith those statements, primarily 6 the fact that these devices shouldbe removed 7 from scope due to the relatively low sales volume s andpotential savings in energy. g And then also, the fact of the categories 10 included are so different withrespect to a spray 11 ice or cascading ice typemakingversus a static 12 icemaking. It's

-- there are somany different 13 product categories within this that it's not 14 nearly as clear-cut as otherproducts that have 1s been discussed today. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou. So your first 11 comment, you're joining Sriram's comment about 1s including icemakers? 19 MR. MYERS: Correct. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou. Just 21 wanted to clarify. Great. 22 Other comments on all of these OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376137

1 definitions beforewemove on? 2 (No audible response.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess, if I can s ask a follow-up question, Charlie? To the extent 6 that there are these two different styles of 7 batch icemakers, would the additional s description of cooled storage versus uncooled 9 storagenot be sufficient in order to give an 10 indication of how those icemakers are different? 11 And I guess I would then followup, I 12 mean ifyou don't have a full response on this 13 now, I canunderstand. But maybe in the written 14 comments, make some suggestions as to what kind 1s of additional terminologyperhaps shouldbe used 16 in order to complete that distinction. 17 MR. HON: Right. I would think itwould 1s

-- this is CharlieHon again. 19 I would think that it's basicallymy 20 comments areparticular to batch type. Cooled or 21 uncooled storage is a separate category 22 completely. You canhave cooled oruncooledbin OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376138

1 storagewith either type of iceyoumake. So 2 they're really

-- they're completelyunrelated in 3 thewayyoumake it. 4 The onlyquestion is uncooled or cooled s bin storage. Cooledbin storagewill giveyou a 6 different approachbecauseyouhave a secondary 7 situation. You know, areyou going to run a 8 refrigeration coil to keep thebin cold? And g that gets into some semantics onhow that 10 happens, whether it's efficient or inefficient 11 highly arguable. 12 Also, howmuch consumption of iceyou 13 have, because if you're a high-volume consumer of 14 ice andyou emptyyourbin three fourths of the 1s way down, anuncooledbin storage isn't 16 efficient, more efficient than a cooledbin 17 storage. But 

### ifyou're a light user andhave a 18 large full binmost of the time, whenyouhave a 19 cooledbin, that is themore efficientmethod. 20 Soyou've got balancing acts here you're 21 playing from oneproduct to the other. Andyou 22 don't knowwhat yourmarket is. In thebatch ice OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376139

1 machines, you know that youhavehighwater 2 usage, lowwaterusage, and also increasedpower 3 consumption. But you get a higher-quality 4 product out of it. s And so, every one of these is a separate 6 category. So there's a lot of categories here 7 that youhave to considerwhat arewe doing. s Becausewe couldhave a batch-type cascade system 9 with anuncooled storagebin. You couldhave the 10 batch-type cascade systemwith a cooled storage 11 bin. 12 So you don't know, becausemost all 13 residentials are a one-pieceunit. You don't get 14 to be the commercial whereyouput the ice 1s machine on top; that's a separate category. The 16 binbelow it is a separate category, becauseyou 17 canmix andmatch in the field. Residentials are**~** not like that. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. Thanks, 20 Charlie. 21 Yes. 22 MR. MOUW: Yeah, I justwant to concur OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376140

1 with Charlie's statement on the discussion about 2 the ice quality. 3 You know, many ofus maynot be familiar 4 with it, but the cascading typepresents a very s different ice than the non-cascading type. And 6 it's a "utility," I guess is the wordwe should 7 describe it as. It's a utility that our 8 consumers desire andpay for. And so it is 9 different. And as a result of that increased 10 utility, there is an impact on energy 11 consumption. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MR. MOUW: so I thinkwe want to 14 recognize that not just as, you know, a talking 1s point, but as a mention of consumer utility, 16 because it is a very different consumerutility 11 for the cascaded ice. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou, Nate. 19 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 20 Not to put ya'll on the spot, that ya'll 21 havebeenvery thoughtful inyour comments. Do 22 you share the concern that the shipment volumes OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376141

1 of these are so lowthat we shouldn't be talking 2 about this? I mean, youjust articulated all 3 these different, you know, consumer features and 4 this desire to have this ice. But thenwe also s hear that, "Oh, well, there's not a lot of these 6 being sold." 7 So, you know, it's sort of a -- you know, 8 it's sort of a mixedmessage sometimes, right? 9 I'mjust trying to understand that for my own 10 MR. HON: I do not know fromyour 11 standpointwhat wouldbe a low-volumeproduct. 12 Howmanykilowatts arewe going to save? How 13 manyunits are sold? I don't know. 14 MR. HAGERMAN: That was my follow-up 1s question. Do you also share the belief that the 16 products that arebeing soldright now are as 17 energy efficient as they canpossiblybemade? 18 MR. HON: My opinion is that there are 19 almost everyproduct in themarket, including 20 commercial refrigeration, residential 21 refrigeration, everything else, there is a -- no 22 one is making theperfect unit. There's always OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376142

1 some improvements that canbemade. But youhave 2 cost-benefit ratios. 3 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, sure. Absolutely. 4 Notwithstanding that, of course. 5 MR. HON: Do I believe that ourmarket, 6 that everybody is making themost efficient 7 units? Of course not. There are certain s commodityproducts which are drivenby cost. 9 Likewe're discussinghere, a high-utilities ice 10 machine 11 MR. HAGERMAN: Icemachine, right. 12 MR. HON:

-- which is clear, crystal ice, 13 whichpeople reallywant if they're taking 14 bottledwater andpouring it on top of it, to not 1s introduce theminerals from the tapback into 16 your system. That has a utility factor. 17 But it also has a negative effect on 1s energy. It also has a negative effect onwater. 19 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. 20 MR. HON: So, howdo I answer that 21 question? I don't know. 22 MR. MOUW: This is Nate, fromWhirlpool. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376143

1 I'll justmaybe add a few comments. I 2 think, depending onwhat questionyou're asking, 3 I thinkwhat Sriram, I guess maybewe can 4 clarify from anAHAM perspective. But, you know, s inyour TSD you talk about a statutory 6 requirement for national energy consumption, and 7 there's a specific requirement that needs tobe s met for a, quote, "product." 9 And so that the outstandingquestion is, 10 what does that mean? And I think, you know, 11 clearly, a group of products has been compared to 12 that statutoryrequirement. So the question is, 13 is that appropriate? 14 You know, I thinkwe have to consider 1s and I've commented on this before

-- that, you 16 know, andyou guys responded to it in the TSD, 17 that, you know, a box that cools something, 1s that's its purpose. It cools something. And 19 then I guess icemakers are so far out on that 20 spectrum, it's designed to produce ice to the 21 consumer. It's not designed to cool something. 22 And so, to lump that inwith these other OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376144

1 products that are all boxes that have cooling 2 systems to keep something cool, that seems 3 questionable. 4 So that's, I think, what the comment is, s is considering icemakers by themselves will 6 nowhere nearmeet that statutoryrequirement. 7 And so that's the comment. I mean, as -- you 8 know, from a national energy consumption g perspective, icemakers are nowhere nearmeeting 10 that requirement. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 12 MR. HON: This is CharlieHon onemore 13 time. 14 He made a comment that's very important, 1s I think, and there's another thing that has been 16 glossed over so far in themeetings. 17 There are two different reasons for 18 refrigeration. The first is food safety. The 19 second is preferences. Keeping something at 20 keepingwine at a certain temperature is a 21 preference. Thewine will maintain itself in, 22 other than adverse conditions, in a drinkable OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376145

1 form for a very extendedperiod of timewithout 2 refrigeration. 3 Refrigeration, I think, in definition is 4 being glossed overhere in the residential market 5 that it's not glossed over in commercial market. 6 The residential needs to be considered are, is it 7 a food safety issue or a preference issue? s And some of theseboxes we're talking g about here, we just heard that, okay, we can't do 

### w anythingwith it. It can't stay at 39 degrees 11 above 72 degrees Fahrenheit ambient. That scares 12 the heck out of me. If it's not beingmarketed 13 as a convenience devicebecause it'smarketed as 14 a refrigerator, a refrigerator, by common 15 definition, is a food-safety device. 16 And that's my number-one concernhere 11 today, because I read over all the standards. 1s And there's no differentiation. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Charlie. 20 Sriram? 21 MR. GOPAL: I justwant to tag on one 22 point to what Nate said about another reasonwhy, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376146

1 you know, icemakers shouldprobablybe 2 considered a different product. Just the fact 3 that their test procedure requires a new 4 appendix, I think, is a recognition on DOE's part s that they are very different. 6 And so, if they require a wholly separate 7 test procedure, then they'reprobably a wholly 8 separateproduct. And if they are a wholly g separateproduct, then the analysis of howmuch 10 energy savings shouldbe done separately andnot 11 lumped inwith the rest of theproducts that are 12 part of this rulemaking. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou. 14 MR. HAGERMAN: The reason I brought itup 1s at this time is I, you know, got the feeling that 16 that was the elephant in the room that we hadn't 17 quite discussedyet in a very clearway, right? 18 And I justwanted to get your feedback on it. 19 I mean, I thinkyou can appreciate the 20 challenges that we're facedwith, too, right? I 21 mean, these things are not refrigerators likeyou 22 think in a home. These aremore like, likeyou OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376147

1 say, convenience devices or convenience 2 refrigerationdevices, right? They're definitely 3 a derivative ofwhat, you know, ourparents 4 always had as white goods, a white refrigerator s in the house, right? 6 We've got to start -- we've got to 7 systematically start thinking about howwe deal s with this, right? And this is our attempt to do 9 that in a meaningful way, I think. 10 So I hopeyou appreciate theproblem that 11 we're grapplingwith, too. 12 MR. HON: We understand completely. And 13 that's the reasonwe're here. That's the reason 14 we're also pointing out the vast differences, 1s because if you'reusing a convenience device, a 16 preference device, the error factor canbemuch 17 greater. 18 If you're dealingwith food safety, there 19 are federal codes on food safety. It's 41 20 degrees Fahrenheit orbelow. You'dbetterhave 21 your food there or it's not considered a safe 22 condition for that food storage. That's FDA OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376148

1 regulations. So that needs to be considered as 2 part of the formula. 3 In commercial refrigeration, we have 4 different categories even inNSF. There's anNSF s step 7 standard, which is food storage. It has 6 special cleaning requirements. It has lots of 7 other requirements. It also has maximum 8 temperature requirements. 9 Thenyou can also go into a lot of the 10 glass-dooredrefrigerators, quote-unquote, 11 "refrigerators," that do actuallymeet 12 refrigerator temperature standards, but are not 13 heldnearly so closebecause a bottle of soft 14 drinks or energydrinks or something is not going 1s to get you sick if it's held at 45 degrees. 16 But if you get a milkproduct at 45 11 degrees for an extendedperiod of time, that date 18 on that label is no longervalid. Itbecomes a 19 food-safety issue. 20 MR. HAGERMAN: So I appreciate all your 21 comments. They're very thoughtful, and theyhelp 22 me understand this, too. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 ConnecticutAvenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376149

1 One question, though. As the

-- after 2 you - if youhave a cascading icemachine and 3 the ice, the sheet of ice is made and then it's 4 cut, right? Andyouhave thehigher-qualityof s ice, whichyou're saying, what is the 6 classification of the compartment that that ice 7 is held in? Is that a food-safety-defined s compartment? It is. Okay. 9 MR. HON: It is a food-safety 10 MR. HAGERMAN: Defined. 11 MR. HON:

-- compartment. And in a 12 commercial application, you have to have 13 standardized cleaningprocedures, periodic 14 cleaning, everything else. 1s In a residential, like everything else, 16 it's as the owner decides to do it. You give 11 them an instruction sheet onhow it shouldbe 18 done. 19 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. Per themanual, 20 right. 21 MR. HON: Right. Which says, take some 22 sort of a bleach-type system, wash it out on this OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376150

1 schedule. Whether they do it or not is

-- 2 MR. HAGERMAN: Not your problem. 3 MR. HON: -- not ourproblem. But it 4 still has to be there. 5 But it is still something that you're 6 consuming, so it still needs safety coverage. 7 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Charlie. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So, clearly, 10 there are other issues. What we're talking about 11 here is focusedmore on, you know, ifyouwere to 12 regulate an icemaker, howwouldyoumeasure its 13 energyuse? 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Next, we'll talk about 15 the icemaker energy-usemetric. DOE considered 16 a couple of things here, first the kilowatt hour 17 per 100 pounds of icemetric that is used for 1s automatic commercial icemakers. Andjust for 19 reference, that test procedure calls for testing 20 in a 90-Fahrenheit ambient condition, using 70- 21 Fahrenheit inletwater. 22 One thing DOE recognized is this method OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376151

1 does not capture the energyuse for storage or 2 replenishing ice. Some of DOE's testing showed 3 that the energyuse associatedwith the storage 4 of ice canbevery significant, you know, on an 5 ongoingbasis. 6 And depending onwhat the assumptions are 7 for howmuch of the ice is actuallyused in a s day, you look at, okay, howmuch energy is 9 associatedwithproducing that much ice that I'm 10 usingversus howmuch energy is associatedwith 11 just keeping the bin full while, you know, it's 12 waiting for me to take some ice. 13 So, depending on the assumptions, a range 14 of 5 percent to 91 percent for storage. So, 15 clearly, this is significant for icemakers. 16 Also, clearly, EPCA, for residential 11 products, requires consideration of standby and 1s off-mode energyuse. Hence, you know, whether or 19 not this is significant, DOE has to address this 20 issue and somehowdeal with it. 21 So the other approach that DOE considered 22 was the kilowatt-hours-per-yearmetric, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376152

1 accounting for a representative iceproduction 2 per day and the storage energyuse and, you know, 3 putting those two numbers together to come up 4 with an annual energyuse. 5 DOE concluded that this latter approach 6 was themost appropriateway to formulate the 7 energy-usemetric for icemakers. 8 So, issuebox 25, DOE requests comment on g theproposal to use an annual energy-usemetric 10 that includes both storage and iceproduction 11 energy-use components. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? 13 (No audible response.) 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothinghere? Okay. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So, we talked 16 about what would the representative daily ice 17 consumptionratebe. That clearly is a question. 1s And DOE didnot, in order to obtain a number for 19 this, was not in theposition to do extensive 20 field surveys in order to determine a number. 21 The four-pound daily iceproduction 22 numberwas considered to be a reasonable number, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376153

1 a littlebit more than double the 1.8 that was 2 initiallybeingdiscussed for a refrigerator 3 automatic icemaking testprocedure. Many of 4 these icemakers canproduce far more than four 5 pounds a day, but it is not felt that, on an 6 average annual basis, that theywouldbe using 7 that much ice. Certainly, therewouldbemuch s more intimate iceuse in a residence than there 9 would, for instance, with a commercial icemaker 10 in a restaurant. 11 So this is theproposed level. And 12 certainly, we'll get into the request for comment 13 later, where DOE requests any information that 14 might be helpful in adapting this number to 15 something that might bemore close to reality if 16 there is any data available. 11 Most of the additional points here I've 1s already covered. There are some questions as to 19 what the numbers shouldbe. If anybodyhas any 20 comments, c_ertainlywe welcome themnow. 21 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Sriram? MR. GOPAL: Yes. We don't agree that the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376154

1 four pounds a day is a reasonable number. We 2 think it shouldbe closer to the 1.8 or even 3 less. Just it seems that four pounds a day is 4 just unrealistic, and it doesn'_t make sense to 5 us. So. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Canyouprovide, canyou 7 saywhy? 8 MR. GOPAL: Well, we cameupwith a g number of 0.76 in terms of the icemakers in 10 refrigerator-freezers. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 MR. GOPAL: Now, we acknowledge that if 13 youhave an icemaker, you'reprobablygoing to 14 consumemore than ifyou're using the icemaker 15 inyour refrigerator-freezer. But to say that 16 it's going to bemore than four times more, I 17 thinkDOE needs to justifythat in order to use 1s that number in a regulation. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess DOE wouldbe 20 hoping that themanufacturers wouldunderstand 21 usepatterns from their consumers and things like 22 that and somehow they'dbe able to get that OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376155

1 information. 2 MR. GOPAL: We'll talk to ourmembers. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: That wouldbe great. 4 MR. GOPAL: Yeah, yeah. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional comments 6 on four pounds or other alternatives? 7 Charlie. 8 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 9 I thinkwe have a real dichotomyhere, 10 becausepeoplewho buy icemakers as a 11 freestanding piece of equipment I do not believe 12 areyour normal ice consumers. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: In the residential market. 14 MR. HON: In a residential market. They 15 quite often

-- but you look at theunits. You do 16 not seeunder-10-pound-a-day icemachine very 17 often. You see 20s, 50s, 50-pound-per-day-type 1s units being sold on a regularbasis. Not a high 19 volume, but a regular basis. 20 And I don't knowhow that equates to the 21 total ratios of units sold in a I do not have 22 a full spectrum. I would think that AHAM would OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376156

1 have a much greaterunderstanding of all the 2 different possible abilities as far as volume 3 productionversus losses versus because ifyou 4 have a 50-pound icemachine, which is a 5 residential unit, that 4-pound-per-day canbe 6 your loss as it sits therewithout any action 7 going on. Andyouhave a melt-out, it could 8 easilybe four pounds per day. g So I don't knowwhere these numbers are 10 you have to differentiate that from

-- which 11 is inside of a refrigerator freezer versus what 12 is a standalone icemachine. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional thoughts here? M Yes, Nate. 15 MR. MOUW: Yeah, this is Nate from 16 Whirlpool. 11 Just to that point, andmaybe Detlef, 18 perhaps you can expand a littlemore on that four**~** pounds per day. I mean, that is, as I understand 20 it, having skimmed through the TSD, that is the 21 amount of the iceyou are assuming that the 22 consumer is taking out of the icemaker. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376157

1 Any amount of melt wouldbe included in 2 the ice storagemetric, right? So if there is 10 3 pounds melting in a day, that's alreadymeasured, 4 according to this proposed testprocedure, and 5 the 4 pounds is just the assumed amount of ice 6 that is actuallyremoved from the icemakerby a 7 consumer. Is that accurate? 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: That is correct, g although the test procedure doesn't try to 10 capture themeltage from the four pounds, you 11 know, whenwe're doing theproductionpart of the 12 test procedure. But, yes, the four pounds would 13 be the used ice. 14 And so, if you're using this procedure 15 and 50 percent of the energy is storage and 50 16 percent is theproduction for the four pounds, 17 then it's roughly four pounds meltage. So, some 1s of these units do havemeltage, you know, on the 19 order of four pounds in a day. 

### w (Pause.) 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: So, nowwe get into test 22 conditions and setup. In general, DOE tried to OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376158

1 follow the existing refrigerationproduct test 2 procedures, set up requirements to the extent 3 possiblewhere they're applicable to icemakers. 4 And things such a clearance distances for the 5 cooled storage icemakers, steady-state 6 conditions, you know, what it takes to be 7 considered steady-state. 8 DOE proposes icemakers be tested in 72 g Fahrenheit ambient. And the thought process here 10 is that icemakers are likelynot opened as often 11 as, you know, regular refrigerators. So 12 certainly, testing at a 90-Fahrenheit ambient 13 would overestimate the amount of load associated 14 with door-openings. 15 The icemaker testproceduremeasures the 16 iceproduction energyuse directly, so any load 17 associatedwith the 90-Fahrenheit test for a 18 refrigerator that wouldbe attributed to like 19 manual icemaking or something like that, you 20 know, isn't applicable here. Basically, all the 21 production is separatelymeasured. 22 Hence, DOE concluded that itwouldbe OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376159

1 muchmore representative to use a 72-Fahrenheit 2 ambient, an average residence temperature, 3 essentially, for this test. 4 DOE proposed inlet water conditions of 72 5 Fahrenheit, plus orminus 2 Fahrenheit, and DOE 6 recognizes that, inmany cases, supply-water 7 temperaturemaybe lower than that. However, in 8 order to reduce test burdenrequirements of 9 having a separatewater supplygivingyou that 10 temperature, DOE proposed 72, assuming that there 11 wouldbe equilibrationwith the ambient 12 conditions in the room. 13 That's also a factor in the test 14 procedures that were being considered for 15 refrigerator-freezer's measurement of automatic 16 icemakers in thoseproducts, again for test17 burden reasons. 18 For portable icemakers, where there 19 wouldn't be a water supply, per se, DOE proposes 20 requiringputtingwater into those icemakers at 21 55 Fahrenheit. And this is associatedwith 22 accelerating the stabilizationperiod, because in OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376160

1 DOE testing, we saw that ifyou fill the 2 reservoir at a warmer temperature, it takes 3 several cycles for things to stable out, and then 4 the reservoir gets into a range close to that 55. s It depends on theparticular icemaker, but this 6 is felt to be a reasonablemedian temperature in 7 order to try to accelerate that stabilization 8 period. 9 MR. MOUW: Detlef, I'm sorry. Canyou 10 repeat whywe would go to a 55 degrees rather 11 than a 72? I think that's what youjust 12 described. Couldyoujust I'm sorry -- just 13 repeat that so I can get more clarityon that? 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's in order to 1s reduce the stabilization timeperiod. In our 16 testing, we sawthat ifyou fill the reservoir 17 with 72 Fahrenheit, you get very slowice 18 production, initially, because the water is so 19 warm. And, you know, as time goes by, thewater 20 cools down, and then, you know, you start to 21 steady out. 22 And at those steady conditions, youhave, OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376161

1 you know, depending on the icemaker, you know, 2 low50s, high 50s. But we felt that 55 was a 3 reasonable temperature to get some consistency in 4 the test. 5 MR. MOUW: Okay. Thanks. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So, herewe request 7 comment on some of theseparticulars associated s with temperatures. 9 (Pause.) 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on these 11 temperatures? 12 (No audible response.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. More on test 1s conditions and setup. Theproposal calls for 16 temperature controls if they exist to be set to 17 themedianposition, anyuser accessible ice 1s piece size control to be set for the largest ice 19 piece size, data collection for temperaturepower 20 and energybe not less than onceperminute in 21 order to make sure the test data capture the 22 times associatedwith the icemaking cycles. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376162

1 For cooled storage icemakers, the test 2 procedure calls for a single temperature sensor 3 in a location that is designed to give a 4 representative temperature, but thennot s interferewith the icemakingprocess in order to 6 determine stabilization for the ice storage 7 portion of the test. s Theproposal calls for the tubingused to 9 convey the water from the icemaker to the test 10 lab floor be as specified in the consumer 11 instructions suppliedwith the cabinet, that 12 those drain lines be installedrunning downwards 13 without anyuphill portions. 14 And that if there is a pumpwithin the 1s unit that is used to pushwater out of theunit, 16 if it's optional, onlyrequiredwhenyou need to 11 run that water uphill to a drain, then it 1s wouldn't be used in the test. However, if it 19 must always be energized, then that wouldbe 20 required to be energizedduring the test. 21 More on the test itself for

-- this is 22 for the icemakingportion of the test. This OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376163

1 part of the test measures the energyuse required 2 perpiece of ice, orperweight of ice, during 3 filling of thebin. Theproposal requires a two4 hour stabilizationperiodprior tobeginning of s the test. 6 The test calls for a perforated container 7 similar to what's used for testing of commercial 8 icemakers to capture the ice. And then themelt 9 would fall down into thebin andbe drained. 10 The test periodduringwhich the energy 11 use is calculated and the ice is being captured 12 for weighingwould consist of a whole number of 13 icemaking cycles of at least sixhours for batch 14 icemakers oruntil the icemaker stops 1s automatically if it's less than sixhours. But 16 for batchmakers, in any case, itwouldbe a 17 whole number of icemaking cycles. 18 The icemaking cycles wouldbe definedby 19 observing thepower trace. However, I believe 20 the test procedure also

-- theproposal also 21 points to some othermethods that couldbe used 22 in order to determinewhen the harvest has OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376164

1 occurred in order to identify the icemaking 2 cycles, particularly for uncooled

-- or for 3 cooled storage icemakers if thepower trace is 4 not sufficientlyindicative of that cycle. s For a continuous-type of icemaker, a 6 period of sixhours of icemakingwould represent 7 the test period for which the energyuse wouldbe 8 measured. And theproposal allows for doorg openings. The idea is that youwouldput the 10 perforated container into the icemakerwhenyou 11 start the test period, and run through the test 12 period, and collect sixhours of ice. 13 But in some cases, the geometry of the 14 icemakermaybe such that that size of a 1s perforated containermaynot easily come out of 16 the bin at the end of the test full of ice. And 11 so, in those cases, the proposal calls for 18 allowingperiodic retrieval of ice during that 19 testperiod. 20 There are requirements on time for the 21 door-openings in order to minimize the thermal 22 load associatedwith those interventions. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376165

1 And then, the test. The proposal also 2 calls for 1 percent accuracy inprecision for 3 weighing ice similar to what is required for 4 commercial icemakers. 5 So herewe request comments on any of 6 those details at the last page or two. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 8 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. 9 I have a serious question, for two 10 different reasons. I do not know the correct 11 answers; I'mgoing to askyou. 12 Okay. Drain lines shall be installed 13 running downwards from the icemaker's drain M outlet. That is not howproducts are normally 15 put into the field. Do you want -- there's two 16 reasons for that. First off is ifyou have a 17 drain going straight down. Cold air is heavier 18 thanwarm air. And if you have no obstruction in 19 there of a P-trap design, the cold airwill 20 continue to flow down the tube andwarm airwill 21 come into the top of the bin to replace it. 22 Secondly, for sanitation reasons, you OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376166

1 always want toput a P-trap in a water drain so 2 that, shall we say, you don't want fumes. If 3 you're going to a sewer drain, there is a certain 4 amount of sewage in a sewer drain. And gases s from that, quite often, carrya lot of bacteria. 6 And it is possible for those to bepulledback 7 into the ice ifyou don't put a P-trap in. 8 And also, cockroaches crawl up. So you 9 want some obstruction there. If it's only for 10 the test procedure, it's not a problembecause it 11 wouldbe standardized. But itwill change the 12 energy consumption slightly. As the icemelts, 13 the cold air is continually flowing downhill and 14 out of the unit andbeing replacedbywarm air on 1s top of it. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, I think that's a 17 great comment, and I think, you know

-- 18 MR. HON: I don't knowwhat's going to 19 happen. I know therewill be slight increase in 20 energy consumptionbecause of that. Itwon't be 21 huge. But that is not how they'rebuilt in the 22 fieldbecause of other reasons. You don't want OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376167

1 that to happen ever in the field. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. We'll certainly 3 consider changes perhaps pointing to installation 4 instructions and otherwise downward

-- 5 MR. HON: Because if it's just for 6 testing, it's a standardized condition, that 7 everybody is playingwith the same conditions. 8 But if it's

-- you're not testing a standardunit g then. 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, understood. 11 MR. HON: Thankyou. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional thoughts here? 13 Alot of specificityon these test conditions 14 setup, as well. 15 (Pause.) 16 Nothing additional? Okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: JohnMyers, you're on.**~** Speak. 19 MR. MYERS:

-- not use some of those 20 standard terminology fromAHRI as far as for 21 stabilization and

-- because two hours maynot be 22 adequate to guarantee that theunit is operating OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376168

1 repeatedly. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou. 3 Other comments beforewe move on? 4 (No audible response.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess I shouldpoint 7 out, issue 31 here requests comment on an aspect 8 that I'mnot suremade it into the slide, the 9 requirement to retrieve the icewithin two 10 minutes after the end of the icemaking test 11 period. 12 (Pause.) 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Thepoint of this is to 14 assure that themeltage from the ice is limited 1s and that you don't wait like three hours for 16 retrieving the ice. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. 19 Couldn't that alsobe attainedby 20 plugging the drain temporarily andmeasuring the 21 water that had alsomelted off? 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's somethingwe OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376169

1 could consider as well. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Moving on to the 4 ice storage test, this is theportion of the test s that addresses howmuch energy is usedjust 6 keeping the ice there ready to use. 7 And for this, theproposal calls for the s test to be conductedwhen the icemaker enters a 9 mode where it eithermaintains a cooled storage 10 temperature if it's a cooled storage type of ice 11 maker, or, you know, a timeperiodwhen it 12 occasionallyreplenishes themelted ice that's in 13 thebin. 14 So this test wouldbe conductedwhile the 1s ice storagebin is full, and theproposal calls 16 for using only the iceproducedby theunit under 11 test. So you couldn't put in some ice that might 1s have larger size andmelt muchmore slowly. 19 For a cooled storage icemaker, the test 20 periodwould occur after a period of 21 stabilization that wouldbe definedvery similar 22 to what it is for refrigerators and refrigeratorOLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376170

1 freezers based on that one thermal couple near 2 the top of thebin, and thenusing a test period 3 similar to what is used for a refrigerator or a 4 refrigerator-freezer. s For anuncooled storage icemaker, where 6 the additional energyuse is associatedwith 7 producing additional ice to fill thebin, it's a s very different test andmuchmore variability in 9 what you seewith different icemakers. So the 10 proposal calls for a 48-hour test inwhich a 11 whole number of replacement cycles occur, and 12 that this would start at the end of an icemaking 13 period and then end at the end of a replacement 14 cycle. 1s So herewe request comments on those 16 proposals associatedwith the ice storageportion 11 of the test. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Any thoughts here? Ice 19 storage tests. 20 (No audible response.) 21 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. MR. WESTPHALEN: For continuous ice OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376171

1 makers, the test procedure calls for 2 consideration of the icehardness. The ice 3 hardness is the fraction of the ice that is 4 actually ice, because continuous ice, you know, s has someportion that's still liquidwater 6 containedwithin the crystalline structure. 7 DOE proposes that, on the assumption that s most of these residential icemakers make nugget g ice, whichhave an icehardness in the vicinity 10 of 0.85, to allow the use of the standard 0.85 11 icehardness value as an option, or if the 12 manufacturer feels that itwouldbebeneficial or 13 worthwhile to actuallymeasure the hardness to 14 use the hardness test procedure that is part of 1s ASHRAE 29, then DOE proposes that therewouldbe 16 an icehardness adjustment factor be calculated 17 according to this equation. 1s Andbasically, what this represents is, 19 you know, the amount of energyuse required to 20 make 100-percent-hardness ice, startingwith 72- 21 degree Fahrenheit water, dividedby the amount of 22 energy that wouldbe removed for the given ice of OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376172

1 the given icehardness. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Sriram. 3 MR. GOPAL: I justhave a question. 4 What's the rationale of including a hardness s calculation at all? 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, this was 7 introduced in the commercial icemaker test s procedure. And the reason to do it is so that if g you have a continuous icemaker, you couldn't 10 just improve your energyusemeasurement by 11 reducingyour hardness. 12 MR. GOPAL: And I guess my concern is 13 that that sounds like a performance issue. And 14 you know, I'mnot sure that a performancemetric 1s shouldwork its way into an energy conservation 16 standard. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, theproposal for 1s the test does not require anyparticularhardness 19 level. 20 (Pause.) 21 22 MR. GOPAL: Thankyou. MR. WESTPHALEN: So, moving on to the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376173

1 energyuse calculation

-- 2 MR. MOUW: I'm sorry, Detlef. Can I just 3 ask one question? This is

-- I thinkyouhad 4 mentioned that this icehardness portion is just s for continuous type. And I thinkyouhad 6 mentioned that it's an optional. Is it optional 7 to use icehardness tomore accuratelyrepresent s the amount of iceyou've created? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. DOE 10 decided that the test burden associatedwith the 11 hardness measurement wouldprobablynot be 12 worthwhile for most of these residential units. 13 MR. MOUW: Okay. So itwouldnot -- 14 "optional" means that it's not required. It's 1s somethingyou could do shouldyourproduct 16 benefit from doing so. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. Exactly. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: JohnMyers, you're next. 19 MR. MYERS: Once again, you know, this is 20

-- once again, this is JohnMyers. 21 The flake-nugget residential market is an 22 even smaller segment. And once again, I believe OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376174

1 that the effort and the energy savings required 2 wouldbe, you know, once again out of scope 3 compared to the rest of the products that are 4 coveredunder this NOPR. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, John. 6 Charlie? 7 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 8 I'm concerned there's a problemhere that g DOE needs to be aware of, because the flake 10 market and the nugget market in certainregions, 11 ifyou have lowwater availability, giveyou 12 effectively 100 percent yield fromyourwater to 13 ice. There is no loss because all theminerals 14 come right throughwith it. And there, you don't 1s have a purging cycle in there. 16 And that's a question, because it's very 17 possible, in the near future, Californiawill go 18 to restricting the amount of water down the 19 drain. And if

-- so ifyou startpulling certain 20 pieces of this out, youmayhave a problem. 21 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou. MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Moving on to the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376175

1 calculation of the energyuse, so these two parts 2 of the test are put together in order to comeup 3 with the daily average energyuse. The ice 4 makingportion of the test would result in a 5 measurement of energyuseperpound, andusing 6 the four pounds per day, you get a daily energy 7 use associatedwith theproduction. s And then the storage energyusewouldbe 9 the average ice storagepower consumption 10 multipliedby the amount of timeper day that the 11 icemaker is not producing the four pounds of 12 ice. And so, ifyou have an icemaker that can 13 onlymake four pounds in a day, then the storage 14 portion goes away, according to this calculation. 15 For portable icemakers, the proposal 16 calls for using a 50-percent factor to take into 17 account the fact or the expectation that many of 1s theseportableunits would not necessarilybe 19 energized and operating 100 percent of the time 20 throughout theyear. 21 Herewe stop for additional comments. 22 (Pause.) OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376176

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: So, nowwemove on from 3 icemakers to some additional topics that are in 4 theproposal. The first categoryhere is an s umbrella category for some incidental changes to 6 the test procedure text to improve clarity. 7 First of all, revision of some section of 8 Appendices AandB to refer to the "two tests" as 9 opposed to the "two test periods." Test periods 10 are covered in section 4 of AppendixAor 11 Appendix B. And theyhave a particularmeaning, 12 but then in

-- then there is discussion of tests 13 conducted at different temperatures. And the 14 current test procedure also calls those two 1s different "testperiods," andwe're changing that 16 to "tests" for a littlebitbetter clarity. 17 Second, revision of the auxiliary 18 compartment language to use the term "primary 19 fresh food" or "freezer compartment" instead of 20 "first compartment"; replacing "should" with 21 "must" in the definition of "variable defrost 22 control" just to reinforce that. And this is OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376177

1 associatedwith concerns regarding circumvention 2 if a manufacturer decides to call a particular 3 defrost control a "variable" when it is not 4 reallyvariable. And this just reinforces that s it is expected that the times between defrost 6 would change the variableusagepatterns. 7 And finallyhere, itwould extend the 8 setupprovisions of section 2 of AppendixA to 9 apply to the new consumer refrigerationproducts 10 governed in this rulemaking. 11 Also, we have changes to the volume 12 calculation instructions. DOE proposes to use 13 the acronymAV for "adjustedvolume." In some of 14 the sections in the CFR, it'sVA instead of AV, 1s andwe're changing to AV in all the sections. 16 There is also a proposal to require 17 rounding the volumes of fresh food freezer and 18 cellar compartments to the nearest 0.01 cubic 19 feet, and that anyvolumes measured in liters 20 would first have to be converted to cubic feet 21 and then rounded to 0.01 in order to avoid issues 22 withvolume round-off therewhen considering OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376178

1 metric versus Englishunits. 2 Additional changes to volume measurement 3 instructions are listedhere. First of all, a 4 clarification, and I believe this may alreadybe s in a guidance, but is nowbeing introduced into 6 the testprocedure, that thewalls surrounding an 7 automatic icemaker compartment wouldnot be 8 included in the volume determination. 9 Also, that an icemaker augermotor, the 10 volume that it takes up wouldbe included in the 11 volume of the refrigerator. 12 Some additional volume calculation 13 changes. The automatic icemaker kit and the ice 14 storagebinbothwouldbe included in the volume. 1s The fountain recess and the dispenser insulation 16 wouldnot be included. And that's consistent 17 with the HRF-1-2008. 18 Then, for the ice chute, the volume is 19 included, you know, up to the dispenser flap if 20 there is no cover that covers the chutewhen 21 there's no icebeing dispensed, but not included 22 if there is a plug or a cover covering that ice OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376179

1 

### chute. 2 

### So herewe have a series of comment boxes 3 

### requesting comment on all those incidental items 4 

### that I just covered. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So, quite a fewproposed 6 

### changes, incidental andmore than incidental, it 7 

### seems to me. Thoughts? Like the volume s 

### determinationpiece couldbe significant, 9 

### depending on -- what do you think? Thoughts on 10 

### these items here? 11 

### (No audible response.) 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Nothinghere? 13 

### MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. We have a 14 

### question from theWebinar. Compartment volumes 1s 

### are already calculated to the nearest 0.1

-- 0.01 16 

### cubic foot. How is this different? Question 17 

### from Bill Brown. 18 

### Well, itmaynotbe different. But it's 19 

### beingproposed toput the text in theAppendices 20 

### tomake it clear. 21 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: It's a clarification. MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376180

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Or a confirmation, 2 either one. Okay. 3 Additional thoughts, comments on these 4 many instructions and clarifications? s (No audible response.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Moving on to 8 Appendices Al and Bl, the old test procedures, g DOE proposes to remove them, since they're no 10 longer needed. And thenwe get onto compliance 11 with other EPCA requirements. 12 First of all, a consideration of test 13 burden. Theproducts coveredby this rulemaking, 14 previouslymost of theproducts are not covered 1s byDOE, but they are similar to refrigerators, 16 refrigerator-freezers, and freezers. The 11 proposed test procedures are consistent with the 18 existing tests for the currentlycovered 19 products, and therefore, would not represent any 20 greater test burdenperproduct than the current 21 DOE test procedures. 22 For the icemaker testprocedure, there OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376181

1 are some differences. There are some differences 2 in the requirements for the test facilities, such 3 as requirement of a water supply line, a scale to 4 measure ice, perforated container. s But those represent fairly small 6 investment as comparedwith the test facility and 7 other equipment required in order to measure 8 energyuse of refrigerators. So on a per-product 9 basis, the test burden is considered to be 10 equivalent to that of the existing covered 11 product. 12 DOE conducted some assessment, you know, 13 addressing the regulatory flexibility review 14 requirements. DOE identified four small business 1s manufacturers that wouldbe affectedby today's 16 proposals. 17 For the different products that arebeing 18 addressed, cooled cabinets are currently 19 regulatedby the CEC andNRC, NRCan, rather, as 20 wine chillers. So manufacturers likelyalready 21 tested theseproducts. I know therewas some 22 mention of some suchproducts that currentlymay OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376182

1 not be registered, certified to CEC and Canada. 2 But we have also heard that essentially it's a 3 singleNorthAmericanmarket, and the Canadian 4 and Californiarequirements essentially set the s standard for NorthAmerica. 6 The proposed test procedures wouldmodify 7 the calculations for these existingproducts, but 8 would not require retesting. Hence, any existing g cooled cabinets that havebeen certified to CEC 10 or Canadawould not have to be retested. The 11 test datawouldbe there. Therewould simplybe 12 adjustment of the test result. 13 And DOE estimated that revising the 14 energyuse representations for cooled cabinets 1s would require 120 hours of effort for each 16 manufacturer. And this is an estimate, 17 certainly, wherewe welcome comment on, you know, 18 what the effort might be, depending onwhat the 19 situation is for a particular small business 20 manufacturer. 21 In looking at the remainingproducts, DOE 22 considered the cost that manufacturers might OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376183

1 incur for testing theseproducts and estimated 2 the averagewouldbe $2,500 per test, that there 3 wouldbe a cost of two tests per unit, perbasic 4 model, rather. s Shipping costs to a test lab that would 6 do the testing, test management and review time, 7 reporting time, and adding all this up and 8 assigning representative labor rates for 9 technician time, et cetera, brought us to a total 10 estimated cost of $74,000, or $18,500 per small 11 business, which represents between 0.01 and 0.02 12 percent of the annual revenues of the small 13 businesses involved. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: If we have comments on 1s DOE's numbers regarding testing costs of 16 additional details on testingburden, that would 11 be helpful. 18 (Pause.) 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing on thosepoints? 20 Yes, yes, Joseph. 21 MR. FONTECCHIO: Joseph again, with True 22 Manufacturing. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376184

1 Maywe go back to the last slide? 2 On the secondbullet point, see, "The 3 proposed test procedures wouldmodify the 4 calculations for these existingproducts, but s would not require re-testing." 6 Well, thoseproducts that were already 7 tested or are currentlybeen testedwere tested 8 and listed in Canada and California to surpass g the values that Canada and Californiahave. 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. 11 MR. FONTECCHIO: I guess, depending on 12 the outcome of the TSD and some of these 13 analyses, if that value changes, the listings 14 most likelywill not be applicable anymore. They 1s will fail the Department of Energy's threshold or 16 level that's establishedunless it is the same as 17 the Canadian and the California today. 18 So, theremaybe additional burden 19 associatedwith surpassing this standard in 

### w redesigning. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Challenge that 22 presumption. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376185

1 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Yeah. Okay. Okay. 2 

### MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Inresponse, I 3 

### would say that this talks about theburden 4 

### associatedwith theproposed test procedure. 5 

### Now, clearly, therewouldbeburden associated 6 

### withDOE imposing an energyconservation standard 7 

### that wouldpotentiallygo above andbeyond the 8 

### testburden. And I thinkyou're referring in 9 

### part ormaybe primarilyto that. 10 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I have a question. Joe 11 

### Hagerman, DOE. 12 

### What's thehistory of the CEC and 13 

### Canadian standard? Was itput in effect 10 years 14 

### ago, 4 years ago? Andwhen is it due to be 15 

### updated? Do you have any idea? Is itnewor old 16 

### orwhat? 17 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: I believe Californiahas 18 

### been doing it for years. And theyjust recently 19 

### re-upped theirpublication. I don't believe the 20 

### value for

-- 21 22 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Changed. MR. FONTECCHIO:

-- for a pass has OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376186

1 

### changedwith this re-up. And Canadahasn't 2 

### either. I think they all want tomove a ways 3 

### above, similar to what has just occurredwith the 4 

### refrigerators in September. 5 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Is there anyEnergy STAR 6 

### labeledproducts at all? 7 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: Wine is not. That's a 8 

### great question. Becausewine is not a food g 

### temperature, it's inadmissible for Energy STAR. 10 

### Now, if the DOE changes it to the temperature 11 

### band of 39 andremoves the foodmoniker, perhaps 12 

### Energy STAR will

-- 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Take it out? 14 

### MR. FONTECCHIO: take it out andmake 1s 

### those that surpass the standardbya percentage 16 

### eligible for Energy STAR; that's ourhope. 17 

### MR. HAGERMAN: That's something industry 18 

### as a whole would like, tohave Energy STAR19 

### labeledwine? 20 21 22 

### MR. HON: This is CharlieHon. That's highly debatable. MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376187

1 (Laughter.) 2 MR. HON: Depending on themarket. 3 MR. FONTECCHIO: We'dhave to get back to 4 you on that one. 5 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou, Sriram. 8 MR. HAGERMAN: There's no simple question 9 here. 10 MR. HON: Energy STAR is a voluntary 11 program, which is used inmarketing. 12 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. 13 MR. HON: And somepeople are running 14 more efficient equipment, usuallyhigher-priced 1s equipment. Theywant the Energy STAR market. If 16 you're trying tomake lowest-possiblemarket 11 entry-levelproducts, it's not necessarily that 18 way. And it's dependent onyourmarket. So I 19 20 21 22 don't want to sayyes or no. Certain companies will want it. But I have another questionnowon the same veinjust to askyou. Will this bewritten OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376188

1 if this standard is followed through on, will 2 itbewritten as the standardrefrigerationunits 3 are, which is preemptive, states cannot bemore 4 aggressive than the federal standard? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Kida. 6 MR. KIDO: Itwill bepreemptive. It 7 will be. So anything that the states already 8 have will bepreempted once -- ifwe were to have 9 federal standards

-- thosewouldbe the national 10 standards that everyonewouldhave to abide by. 11 MR. HON: And then, can the states apply 12 for exemption as theydo in certainother 13 categories under DOE? 14 MR. KIDO: So, there's a provisionunder 1s EPCA whichpermits states to seek a waiver from 16 the standards that are inplace. 17 MR. HON: Yes. 18 MR. KIDO: So that would stillbe 19 available to them. But theywouldhave to 20 satisfy certain criteria that are set out in the 21 statute. 22 MR. HON: Right. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376189

1 MR. KIDO: So, you know, I'mnot going to 2 speculate as to whether DOE would grant something 3 like that. But that's an option that's 4 available. 5 MR. HON: Right. Because one of the 6 reasons I'm asking that is because it keeps 7 comingback

-- I keep bringing it up, I guess. 8 But energy efficiency is part of California's big 9 issue. Water conservation is anothermajor part 10 of it. And this standardhas no provision for 11 water conservation involved in it. And that's 12 you know, that's one of thosebalancing acts of, 13 what's more important to a region? 14 And so I'mjust trying to get it all 1s figured out because I want to knowwhere the 16 standards are leadingus as a design criteria. 17 MR. KIDO: So, under the statutory 18 provisions that we're operatingunder here, there 19 are certain criteria for us to examinebeforewe 20 go down the path of treating these things as 21 coveredproducts or to set standards for them. 22 And those arebased on the amount of OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376190

1 energy that's consumed. So we're

-- so for, I 2 thinkwhat someone said earlier that we didnot 3 look at water efficiencyas a particularmetric 4 ormark for theseparticular things. And that's s primarily a function of theprovisions that we're 6 conducting this particularproceedingunder. 7 So whenwe, tomorrow I guess, whenwe're s talking about thepreliminary analysis, you know, 9 a lot of the discussion is going to center on the 10 energy consumption of these things because that's 11 the universe that we're operating in right now. 12 I mean, it'swater conservation andwaterusage, 13 you know, those are important factors. 14 And in theprovisions that we're looking 1s at today, they're not present. Andwe do have 16 the statutoryauthority to regulate thewater 11 efficiencyof certain types of products. But 1s those are laid out in the statute. They are 19 specific requirements. 20 (Pause.) 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Another comment from the 22 Webinar. This is from RenataMortazavi, who is OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376191

1 withNRCan

-- mentions that Canada regulates the 2 residential wine cooler since 2008 and expects to 3 harmonize as soon as possible andwill alignwith 4 the U.S. DOE regulations. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Thankyou for 6 that information. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, we've laid out here, I 8 think, Detlef, you've covered that section fully. 9 Comments? Additional comments on the 10 regulatory flexibility review, these estimates 11 here? 12 (No audible response.) 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Now onto standby 14 mode and offmode. EPCA requires consideration 1s of standbymode and offmode for energy test 16 procedures for residential products. For the 11 products that keep a compartment temperature 18 cold, similar to a refrigerators, refrigerators19 freezers, and freezers, the testprocedure 20 alreadymeasures all of the operation, even the 21 compressor off times. So that is already 22 considered. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376192

1 And in addition, the ice

-- theproposed 2 icemaker test procedure includes the ice storage 3 energyuse, so that deals with the standby. 4 So ifwe have any comments on that? 5 (No audible response.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: One of our favorite 7 topics. s (Laughter.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments on one of our 10 favorite topics? Okay. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. And I think 12 that IS it• 13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's it? Okay. 14 As we promisedyou first thing this 1s morning, now is an opportunity for closing 16 remarks. Anything that you thinkhasn't been 17 covered sufficiently, anynewmaterial you'd like 1s to bring to the floor at this time, now is the 19 opportunity to do so. 20 Nate? 21 MR. MOUW: Yeah. Now that Detlef has sat 22 down, I have a question for him. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376193

1 (Laughter.) 2 MR. MOUW: Detlef, on icemakers, there 3 was no mention about measurement of compartment 4 volume. Why was that? 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's an interesting 6 question. I think the thought process was that 7 the icemaker is providing ice, and that's what 8 theutility is. And so, the test procedure aims 9 tomeasure the energyuse associatedwith, you 10 know, producing that ice and then keeping that 11 ice ready for the consumer to use. 12 MR. MOUW: Yeah, and I'mjust reflecting 13 on the TSD. And I'll just read it. It's talking 14 about, again, whether or not icemakers shouldbe 1s included in this rulemaking. It says, "In 16 response to AHAM andWhirlpool, DOE tentatively 17 concludes that theproducts under consideration 18 are all similar and that theyutilize 19 refrigeration, have a similar

-- or insulated 20 'box' construction, and that their function, at 21 least inpart, includes cooler cold storage." 22 So, you know, I mean, if that is the OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376194

1 thought process, then it goes on saying that we 2 should consider it as cooler cold storage and 3 think about compartment volume. Just go to the 4 extreme -- if somebodywere to make an icemaker s the size of a refrigerator for residential 6 purposes. I don't think itwill everhappen. 7 But should it, theywouldwant an allowance for 8 the volume of that compartment. 9 So I'm

-- this is more of a comment in 10 response to what the TSD states, that these 11 products are for cool or cold storage. So if 12 that's the case, we need to consider compartment 13 volume as well. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thankyou. 15 Yes. Joe Hagerman. 16 MR. HAGERMAN: Is there any icemaking 17 device that also

-- I'm looking at the cover. 18 The cover sheet has this cute littleunit on the 19 far right that you can seewhere the ice is made, 20 andyou can seewhere the ice is stored, andyou 21 can see the insulation around it to keep it all 22 cold, right? OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376195

1 

### Is there anyproduct on themarket that 2 

### allows you to store, like, beverages up there, 3 

### too? So you'remaking ice andyou're also 4 

### storingbeverages on top, anything like that? 5 

### Like a hybrid? 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 7 

### MR. HON: I'mnot aware of any. Froma s 

### sanitationviewpoint, we'dbe very concerned g 

### about that becauseyou're directlyabove ofwhat 10 

### wouldbe considereda food product. 11 

### MR. HAGERMAN: The open foodproduct. 12 

### MR. HON: Open foodproduct. 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Right. Okay. All right. 14 

### MR. HON: Yeah. 15 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Just wondered. 16 

### MR. HON: Okay. 17 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Charlie, I'mvery 1s 

### impressedwithyour knowledge of ice.**~** 

### (Laughter.) 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I mean, I've nevermet 21 

### anybody that knows somuch about ice. I think 22 

### you shouldget the official IcemanAward today. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376196

1 (Laughter.) 2 MR. HON: I wish itwas that easy. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: We are eliciting s additional comments here at the end of the day. 6 Other issues that haven'tbeen covered 7 sufficiently, other issues that youwish to cover s now? 9 (No audible response.) 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's then

-- I'll 11 turn itback to Joe Hagerman for final remarks. 12 MR. HAGERMAN: So again, I justwant to 13 thank everybody for their comments today. 14 Obviously, you know, this is our start to this 1s process, andwe look forward to youbeing a part 16 of it till we bring it to closure. 11 Andwe're anticipating that we're going 18 to see these same faces tomorrow, right? Sowe 19 welcome youback tomorrow. Just note that we're 20 going to have an earlier start tomorrow, an 21 earlier end time tomorrow, too, in caseyou fly 22 out of here. So we're going to start at 9:00 OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376197

1 a.m. in themorning, andwe're going to try to 2 get out of hereby 2:00. Andwe didprettygood 3 today, getting out of here well ahead of time. 4 So, thankyou for your comments, and s please remember, March 3rd, I think

-- is that 6 right? March 3rdorMarch 2nd is the closing 7 date for the comment period. Yeah, March 2nd is s the closing date for the comment period. So, 9 please send inyour comments. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thankyou. Thanks to all 11 of you. 12 MR. MOUW: Just one question; I'm sorry. 13 Process-wise, Joe, do we knowwhen the transcript M will beposted? 15 MR. HAGERMAN: No, we do not. But we 16 will work diligently to get that posted as soon 17 as possible. I like to err on the side 1s usually, they sendme the transcript, and then I 19 review it tomake sure that, you know, acronyms 20 are right and concepts are right. And sometimes, 21 I just err on the side of saying let's post it as 22 quickly as possible rather than clean it up. OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376198

1 Because, you know, we're all technical people. 2 We can get to themeat of thematter. 3 So I'llmove as fast as I can get it from 4 them. 5 MR. MOUW: Okay. Thankyou. 6 MR. HAGERMAN: It's not going to be two 7 years. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. MOUW: But is it days orweeks? 10 MR. HAGERMAN: I would sayby

-- he says 11 it has to beweeks. But I've done it in thepast 12 in a couple of days. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MR. KIDO: At least that's beenmy 1s experience. So . 16 MR. HAGERMAN: Kido has neverworkedwith 11 me on one of thesebefore. 18 (Laughter.) 19 MR. HAGERMAN: We try to do it faster. 20 believe in a concept calledreal-time government. 21 So. 22 (Laughter.) OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376 I199

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Safe travels. And for 2 those of you that areheading out -- see the rest 3 of you tomorrow. Thankyou. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 (Proceedings adjourned at 2:36 p.m.)

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut AvenueNW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 Toll Free: 888-445-3376200

1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 2 I, Brian Knieser, the officerbeforewhom 3 the foregoing proceedingwas taken, do hereby 4 certify that the foregoing proceedingwas taken s byme and thereafter reduced to typewritingbyme 6 or undermy direction; that the transcript 7 containedherein is a true record of the s proceedings; and, further, that I am neither 9 related to nor employedby any of theparties 10 whose comments are containedherein. 11 12 13 14 Brian Knieser 15 16 My Commission Expires: March 14, 2019 17 18 19 20 21 22 ..··.·,\ KN,,. ,·' .. "' . ·t.: ,' \ ('

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