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## U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

**+ + + + + CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONER REGIONAL STANDARDS**  **ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP**

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**PUBLIC MEETING**

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**THURSDAY AUGUST 28, 2014** 

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**The Public Meeting met in Suite 8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,**  **Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Neil Eisner, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.** 

**PRESENT NEIL EISNER, Meeting Facilitator**  **TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand**  **RAY ELLIS, Lincoln Electric Cooperative GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor Owned**  **Utilities JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox International MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc.**  **CHARLES McCRUDDEN, Air Conditioning Contractors of America**  **KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense**  **Council STEVE PORTER, Johnstone Supply**  **DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy, Office of the General Counsel** 

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## PRESENT: (cont'd) **ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls**  **HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy**  **AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute**  **CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors - National Association**  **DAVID WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises**
**ALSO PRESENT KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and**  **Refrigeration Institute LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting**  **JOHANNA HARIHARAN, U.S. Department of Energy DAVID HUNGERFORD, ASRAC and California**  **Energy Commission*** **CRAIG MESSMER, Unico*** **JON MELCHI, HARDI TERRY SMALL, Mortex Products Incorporated** * **ERIC STAS, American Council for an Energy- Efficient Economy**  ***via teleconference**

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## CONTENTS **Number 2: Tear-off Labeling . . . . . . . . .69 - Tracking chip on units. . . . . . . . . . .73**  **- Communication down sales chain. . . . . . .79 - DOE database of contractors . . . . . . . 107**  **- Training to contractors, distributors on compliance with regional standards. . . . 123**  **Number 4: Use of AHRI database certificates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 148**  **Collection of information, suspected violations data. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 163**  **Records retention for a specified time in a specified manner . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 203**  **Recap progress/agree to items for next meeting (September 3 and 4). . . . . . . . . 273** 

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## 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S **2 9:03 a.m. 3 MR. EISNER: All right, the sense**  **4 I've gotten from talking to a few of you 5 sitting around the table now is that we made**  **6 a lot of great progress yesterday. 7 And I've had some suggestions**  **8 about trying to keep this going in the right 9 direction, focusing on, first of all, what our**  **10 goal is, and it's to get an effective 11 enforcement program.**  **12 And to get an effective 13 enforcement program doesn't mean asking one**  **14 party to bear all the responsibilities or 15 talking about why things can't be done.**  **16 The group has been very, very 17 positive and I think you deserve a lot of**  **18 kudos for that. And I want you to continue 19 that. I want you to continue putting forward**  **20 things that you think will work rather than 21 trying to point out what won't work.**  **22 To the extent we don't finish a**

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## 1 significant portion of this today, think about **2 that over the weekend before we meet next 3 week.**  **4 And that's a reminder for 5 everybody. Some people apparently forgot**  **6 we're meeting two days next week. That you 7 need to give some thought to innovative**  **8 approaches to this. 9 You need to also remember, as I**  **10 stressed yesterday, you've got a lot of 11 flexibility in the way you set this up. You**  **12 ask can I do this, can I do that. Bring those 13 questions up and let's talk about them because**  **14 there are a lot of different ways you can set 15 up an enforcement program.**  **16 And Doug has stressed throughout 17 that DOE is willing to listen to a lot of**  **18 these things. And he wants to have some 19 candid conversations on these things. So**  **20 let's talk about them. 21 That brings us back to the list of**  **22 items that we worked on yesterday. You should**

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## 1 all have a copy of it. So I'd like to get **2 your thoughts on how you want to proceed. 3 We've broken them up into five**  **4 categories and we had one left over, the 5 review process, that didn't fit into any of**  **6 the five categories. 7 Would you like to go through each**  **8 of these now, discuss them and then rank them 9 in terms of both their effectiveness and their**  **10 ease of implementation? 11 Or do you want to do the latter**  **12 first? 13 MR. RAWALD: And Neil, if I could**  **14 jump in here. This is Doug. 15 If you flip it over to the other**  **16 side they're arranged by buckets which was the 17 ask from the group. So, I see everyone is**  **18 doing it. The color-coded side. 19 MR. EISNER: So, any thoughts? I**  **20 would think from my perspective, and you know 21 this subject better than I do, we probably**  **22 should spend some time going down the list and**

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## 1 talking about not only the subject, for **2 example, FTC label, but all the different 3 things we're talking about when we're talking**  **4 about that. 5 And then discuss for that one**  **6 which quarter of the circle we were going to 7 put it in. And then go to the next item.**  **8 We've got a short day today but I 9 think if we approach this in an organized way**  **10 we'll at least know we're making some progress 11 as we start to discuss these things, whether**  **12 they'll work, how they'll work and how 13 difficult we think they'll be to implement.**  **14 You've got to keep in mind the 15 burden that these things -- whom they're going**  **16 to be placed on. Are you going to ask the 17 manufacturers to do a lot more? And is there**  **18 justification for that? 19 And say you don't want the**  **20 installers to have to do much of anything. 21 And how much are you going to**  **22 impose on DOE? Because DOE doesn't even have**

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## 1 control necessarily over its budgetary **2 resources. It could be doing a great job and 3 earning a profit for the government. That**  **4 doesn't mean it's going to get the resources 5 to effectively implement this program. So we**  **6 have to talk about those in some detail. 7 I've got Terry Small. Two**  **8 presentation materials to move comments on 9 waivers. Not sure what that means.**  **10 Terry, are you on the phone? Can 11 he speak with us? Terry?**  **12 MR. SMALL: Yes, can you hear me? 13 MR. EISNER: Yes.**  **14 MR. SMALL: Okay. I don't know 15 how well people can hear me.**  **16 But yes, I said, I don't know, can 17 you bring up the two slides I guess that**  **18 probably -- the one with the cutaway, the 19 first one. Yes. That's a good starting**  **20 point. 21 So, I know the discussion, we're**  **22 talking about waivers. Can everybody hear me?**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. **2 So, the agenda tentatively had scheduled a 3 discussion of waivers this morning.**  **4 What Neil has been discussing is 5 diverging from that schedule. Because we made**  **6 a lot of headway yesterday on a number of 7 issues.**  **8 So Neil has not introduced nor 9 have we teed up the discussion on waivers yet.**  **10 MR. SMALL: Could we delay then? 11 Could we delay my comments for the waiver**  **12 discussion? 13 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think**  **14 they'd be most germane for that. So right now 15 we have a number of other things that we've**  **16 kind of put in the way of the waiver 17 discussion.**  **18 The waivers were teed up on the 19 agenda, but it looks like, pending the group**  **20 having overwhelmingly say we want to engage in 21 waiver discussions right now, that may be**  **22 something that we could delay to a later**

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## 1 meeting. **2 And if you want us to review some 3 materials on it to kind of get ready for a**  **4 discussion on it, if you could give us some 5 homework to look at that as well that would be**  **6 fine. 7 MR. EISNER: In fact, would it**  **8 help if -- 9 MR. SMALL: Well, I just had --**  **10 MR. EISNER: Would it help if we 11 explain those two slides?**  **12 MR. SMALL: -- easy to -- 13 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, Terry.**  **14 Would it help if -- 15 MR. SMALL: -- with whatever you**  **16 want to do. We can delay my comments. It 17 would be fine.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Would five minutes 19 explaining what the slides are so that people**  **20 can look at them over the weekend help in any 21 way?**  **22 MR. SMALL: Sure, it's always good**

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## 1 food for thought. **2 MR. EISNER: There's some thought 3 around the table that we should proceed first**  **4 with the charts we were working on yesterday, 5 and then put off discussion of the waiver and**  **6 the slides until later. So we will get back 7 to you. And you can always remind us.**  **8 MR. SMALL: Great, I will. Thank 9 you so much.**  **10 MR. EISNER: You're welcome. So, 11 let's go back. Is that an appropriate**  **12 approach? Everybody happy with that? We'll 13 take each item.**  **14 So we've got the list up here. 15 The first one is the FTC label. And the one**  **16 thing we say under 1 is increase visibility, 17 add luminescence, increase size.**  **18 Everybody want to talk about 19 whether this is it, or do we want to add more**  **20 to this subject area? 21 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary**  **22 for the California IOUs.**

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## 1 I was thinking last night about **2 how this label would be utilized. And in my 3 mind it might be utilized at the time of**  **4 delivery when the contractor on the site or 5 someone on the site is looking at the carton**  **6 to see that the right product was shipped to 7 the job site.**  **8 And it might be utilized later by 9 a building inspector, or a utility evaluator**  **10 trying to determine whether or not eligibility 11 requirements were met for rebates, or that**  **12 individual would need to look at the unit 13 because the carton would be gone.**  **14 So, I think it's important to have 15 some sort of an indication of performance both**  **16 on the carton and on the unit itself because 17 those needing to determine compliance may have**  **18 either one or the other. 19 They may be looking at the carton**  **20 or they may later be looking at the product, 21 the condensing unit itself.**  **22 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst**

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## 1 with Lennox. **2 You know, labeling doesn't have to 3 be driven solely by the Federal Trade**  **4 Commission. For example, we have labeling on 5 our boxes that have a big picture of Dave**  **6 Lennox. You may have seen them. 7 We could as an industry choose to**  **8 put something that identifies "for 9 installation in the northern region only." We**  **10 don't have to go back to the FTC to do 11 something on our boxes, or even on our**  **12 equipment. 13 So, up there it says FTC labeling.**  **14 We could agree as an industry to identify 15 product through our distribution on the boxes**  **16 on the outside or on the product that just 17 says "not for sale in southern markets" or you**  **18 know, whatever the appropriate statement needs 19 to be that a dealer or a distributor could**  **20 reasonably see that that product shouldn't go 21 to certain states.**  **22 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary**

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## 1 again. I totally agree with you. I don't **2 think it has to be the mandatory FTC label, or 3 a government authorized label. It could be**  **4 something that industry would do voluntarily. 5 But I think we need it in both**  **6 places so the utility inspector or the 7 building inspector or the folks at the job**  **8 site have something there to determine that 9 they have the right product.**  **10 MR. ROCKY: Bryan Rocky, Johnson 11 Controls. So, am I wrong in remembering what**  **12 the change in the labeling requirements are 13 for January? That we have to, as**  **14 manufacturers, put a label on the unit and one 15 on the outside of the packaging?**  **16 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy with 17 Goodman. The requirement to make the label**  **18 available on the package I believe has been 19 around for awhile now. So, I think**  **20 manufacturers are already doing that. It has 21 to be visible from outside.**  **22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with**

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## 1 AHRI. The label doesn't have to be on the **2 unit itself. It is on the packaging on the 3 box. The FTC label, absolutely.**  **4 MR. EISNER: Any other comment on 5 this?**  **6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary 7 again. Just to conclude my point.**  **8 From my perspective it's important 9 that it be in both places so that those that**  **10 would be concerned about validating the 11 performance of the equipment would have the**  **12 information there to determine whether or not 13 it meets the requirements.**  **14 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White, 15 PHCC. If the clarification that was discussed**  **16 yesterday goes through, that everything in the 17 South will be no less than 14 then those**  **18 labels, those pieces of equipment will say 14. 19 It's going to make it much easier up and down**  **20 the food chain. 21 As a contractor I will be**  **22 presenting that in the sales literature. I**

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## 1 will have to do that. If it's on the package, **2 it's visible. The delivery person, the 3 installer, the person that unboxes it will be**  **4 able to see that. 5**  **6 If FTC, if we would decide and if 7 FTC agreed that we could kind of reorient**  **8 things so that things that are under 14 say 9 "only in the North" that I think could be a**  **10 plus. But I think the FTC label is going to 11 be really helpful at least on our end.**  **12 And manufacturing labeling and 13 things on the boxes that they wish to do**  **14 voluntarily, that's -- I think that's a plus. 15 But not necessarily every**  **16 manufacturer would do that because it wouldn't 17 be required. We have no way to know that**  **18 everybody that makes a unit in the world would 19 do that.**  **20 But I think the label is very 21 important.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. We've**

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## 1 talked a lot about the label at this point. **2 And I think what we understand is there's a 3 label rule that's in effect, it's going to go**  **4 into effect no matter what we do here because 5 of the pace of rulemaking is such that we**  **6 won't be able to avoid that label. 7 Given the DOE interpretation of**  **8 what a 14 is in response to Karen's question, 9 the label as it currently is at least is**  **10 usable, at least provides enough information 11 for us to go on.**  **12 So what I would suggest is that we 13 not spend a whole lot more time talking about**  **14 the label because we can't change anything 15 about the label in the immediate future but we**  **16 can make some other immediate changes that may 17 have more impact on what we're doing here.**  **18 What might be a good idea is to 19 have a couple of folks work together outside**  **20 the group. And I think Jordan recommended 21 having a subgroup, or even just having some**  **22 folks work together more informally to put**

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## 1 together what would be a nice label that would **2 meet everyone's needs. Then come back to the 3 group later on in our discussion and say**  **4 here's a label as we think, what do folks 5 think. And then let's talk about it.**  **6 But let's kind of put that aside 7 with some folks assigned to work on it and**  **8 then focus on some other things today if we 9 could. That would be my suggestion.**  **10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so Doug, 11 this is Gary again. I think we have the label**  **12 well enough nailed down and I understand the 13 FTC limitations.**  **14 I just want to make sure that 15 there's some mark that is going to be visible**  **16 to those that need to see it. 17 And secondly, if it's going to be** **18 an industry voluntary mark it needs to be all 19 inclusive. We have to have everybody that's**  **20 making this product agree to do it because if 21 some don't then it would lose its usefulness.**  **22 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with**

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## 1 Allied. Just for clarity the requirements for **2 the label as I understand them now are the 3 energy guide label has to be made available**  **4 online and with the implementation of regional 5 standards. The actual label is applied to the**  **6 carton of the product. So it's in two places. 7 MR. BALLO: This is Tim**  **8 Earthjustice. Just to quote from the 9 regulations. "Manufacturers and private**  **10 labelers must provide to distributors and 11 retailers, including assemblers, energy guide**  **12 labels for covered central air conditioners, 13 heat pumps and furnaces they sell to them.**  **14 "The label may be provided in 15 paper or electronic form, including internet**  **16 based access. Distributors must give this 17 information to retailers including assemblers**  **18 they supply." 19 MR. RAWALD: And Tim, just for**  **20 clarity for those following along who might 21 read this record one day, where is that**  **22 citation from?**

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## 1 MR. BALLO: 10 CFR 305.14. **2 MR. FERNSTROM: So, the 3 shortcoming of that -- this is Gary again --**  **4 is that it does not speak to whomever may be 5 inspecting the unit.**  **6 And I think this group needs to 7 maybe -- apart from FTC -- needs to address**  **8 how the inspectors are going to be able to 9 determine qualification.**  **10 MR. BALLO: And just to be clear, 11 there are additional requirements for**  **12 retailers and further down the chain for 13 providing the label. But those were the**  **14 requirements for manufacturers. 15 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with**  **16 Ingersoll Rand. I just want to respond to 17 Gary's point.**  **18 Obviously every state does things 19 a little bit differently. I would at least**  **20 offer my view that with the vast majority of 21 products sold, at least historically, being at**  **22 or near the federal minimum you certainly do**

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## 1 not have as standard course a utility **2 representative involved in that transaction. 3 Fundamentally what we're talking**  **4 about here are minimally compliant products 5 going forward.**  **6 And furthermore, building 7 inspectors or other kinds of permitting**  **8 officials being involved in what I would call 9 the majority of HVAC replacements is also not**  **10 the norm. Not saying it doesn't happen, but 11 it is not the norm. So I think to be building**  **12 a system that is reliant on something that's 13 effectively outside the norm is really not in**  **14 keeping with what we've been talking about 15 here. We've been talking about building a**  **16 system that recognizes how the industry tends 17 to operate most of the time today. So I don't**  **18 think we need to be overly focused on 19 providing information to parties that are just**  **20 not involved in the majority of transactions. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary**  **22 again. I think we need to have the capacity**

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## 1 to easily audit all systems for compliance. **2 And if that means that some 3 measure needs to be taken such as a label**  **4 which isn't going to be utilized very often, 5 that's okay. We need to have the capacity to**  **6 easily determine compliance in every case 7 where someone may be looking.**  **8 MR. EISNER: Would you want to add 9 something to DOE collection of information in**  **10 number 5 under the caption of "ease of 11 determining compliance through labels or other**  **12 means?" We can talk about it when we get 13 there in that context.**  **14 MR. FERNSTROM: It doesn't matter 15 to me organizationally where it goes into our**  **16 list. I just think it's an important issue 17 that needs to be addressed.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Let's put that up 19 there as a placeholder.**  **20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with 21 AHRI. Can you elaborate who is "we?" Is it**  **22 DOE? Is it California Energy Commission? Who**

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## 1 is "we?" **2 MR. FERNSTROM: "We" would be any 3 entity that later is obligated to determine**  **4 compliance. So, that could be compliance with 5 the eligibility requirements for a utility**  **6 rebate program. And it might be a utility 7 field inspector looking at the equipment.**  **8 It might be a building inspector 9 where a permit has been taken out and the**  **10 building inspector is called to the site and 11 doesn't want to have to look up the serial**  **12 number and cross-check it against the AHRI 13 database.**  **14 It might be an auditor from the 15 Department of Energy that goes out to the site**  **16 on a spot check basis to determine how things 17 are going nationally.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. Gary 19 and I work a lot on motors as well. So I**  **20 think what he's talking about is a 21 translatable concept from the motors world**  **22 where a motor has a nameplate that has its**

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## 1 average full load efficiency on it, or nominal **2 full load efficiency. 3 So it sounds like what he's**  **4 saying, he wants actually something on the 5 product that has a SEER value which may be**  **6 something that's currently done, I don't know. 7 I don't know what the current label that**  **8 exists on the actual condensing unit says 9 regarding SEER.**  **10 I know it has a model number. It 11 has other electrical information, you know,**  **12 three-phase, single-phase, that kind of stuff 13 if it contains SEER.**  **14 And that seems to be the kind of 15 thing that Gary is looking at, is can someone**  **16 walk into your backyard to where your 17 condensing unit is, looking at it and say, oh,**  **18 it's a 14 SEER. It's okay. That's the way I 19 view it. It's different from the energy --**  **20 MS. MEYERS: So Doug, this is 21 Karen with Rheem. Could I request 10 minutes**  **22 to caucus?**

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## 1 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, Karen? **2 MS. MEYERS: Can I request 10 3 minutes for a caucus?**  **4 MR. EISNER: Oh, sure, certainly. 5 MS. MEYERS: I have something I**  **6 would like to discuss with the manufacturers. 7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's take 10**  **8 minutes. It's almost 25 after. 9 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **10 matter went off the record at 9:23 a.m. and 11 resumed at 9:40 a.m.)**  **12 MR. EISNER: All right, let's go 13 back on the record. Who's going to report on**  **14 the results of the caucus? 15 MS. MEYERS: Okay, so this is**  **16 Karen Meyers with Rheem. 17 So I think we had some discussion**  **18 that will require a lot of us to go back and 19 check within our own facilities.**  **20 But I think the first question is 21 since we're all here to develop a DOE**  **22 enforcement plan, does having a second label**

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## 1 on the unit help us towards that goal? **2 So I guess I'm going to direct 3 this question to you, Doug. And so how does**  **4 having a second label on a unit help with a 5 DOE enforcement plan? I guess I'm a little**  **6 unclear how that would actually be effective. 7 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is**  **8 Doug. And so we had, actually, a little bit 9 of discussion with the installers while you**  **10 were gone. We took advantage of the caucus to 11 caucus ourselves among a bigger group.**  **12 And what I thought was interesting 13 is, so, what I envision is two kinds of**  **14 scenarios based upon what Tim described 15 yesterday, the actual detection of concerns**  **16 with the condensing unit. The homeowner looks 17 at it or a servicing installer later on comes**  **18 into your house and looks at your condensing 19 unit.**  **20 And if they're able to look at it 21 physically and it says on it 14 SEER or 13**  **22 SEER the person who looks at it can say, oh,**

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## 1 this is not -- this shouldn't be here. So, **2 either a servicing technician or the homeowner 3 who has been informed by the public awareness**  **4 campaign that we're going to engage in, 5 they're going to go out in their back yard and**  **6 look at their condensing unit and say, oh, 7 it's a 14 SEER, it's okay, or a 13 SEER, it**  **8 shouldn't be here. So I think that might be 9 a valuable check to at least consider.**  **10 It's funny because Neil and I had 11 a discussion before we got here this week.**  **12 And he went in his backyard to look at his 13 condensing unit. And he called me and said**  **14 oh, it's a 14.5. So he was able to tell from 15 looking at his unit. So I know there are some**  **16 units that have that SEER value on their 17 manufacturer label that's on the product.**  **18 And so it's just a point of 19 question. Is that somebody that people do or**  **20 don't do? And if they don't do it, is it 21 something they could do?**  **22 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. In**

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## 1 the conversation that John posed was on the **2 manufacturer on the box. And then what Gary 3 is posing was on the piece of equipment. So**  **4 those are two slightly or largely different 5 things.**  **6 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is 7 Gary. To respond to Karen's question about**  **8 the importance, the importance is simply can 9 you tell whether the unit is compliant or not.**  **10 And DOE needs to be able to do that. 11 So if the unit is all that's left,**  **12 the carton is gone, yes, you can tell, but you 13 have to look up the model number in the AHRI**  **14 database and find out what the performance is. 15 I think it would be much easier**  **16 for those wanting to determine compliance if 17 compliance were easily determined and**  **18 conspicuous. 19 So that's the importance. You**  **20 just need to be able to tell. 21 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with**  **22 Rheem. I guess, Gary, it depends a little bit**

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## 1 on your perspective. **2 If I can walk up to any unit and 3 look at that model number and go to an**  **4 electronic database and type that model number 5 and find out the efficiency of that unit; I**  **6 think that's pretty easy. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I think --**  **8 do we have the representative from the 9 building industry here today? I guess not.**  **10 But I think you'd find that the building 11 inspectors are very, very busy and oftentimes**  **12 so burdened that they only have time to look 13 at health and safety issues, and not really**  **14 carefully inspect for efficiency. 15 The easier we can make it for them**  **16 the more likely they're going to pay attention 17 to it, and the more likely there will be some**  **18 degree of inspection and compliance. 19 MR. EISNER: Can I ask what the**  **20 concern is about putting a label on the 21 equipment? Is it cost or interference?**  **22 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with**

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## 1 Rheem and I'll respond to that. That is part **2 of it. 3 You have to understand that**  **4 there's a real estate problem on units too. 5 I mean, where possibly could we put this**  **6 label? If we incur the extra cost to do that 7 it's not going to be very big because there's**  **8 just simply not physical room on the unit to 9 do that.**  **10 We've all committed that we were 11 going to go back and talk to our production**  **12 people about whether this is even feasible for 13 us to do. And we hope we can come back next**  **14 week and maybe give you a more clarifying 15 answer.**  **16 But I think it's still -- to me, 17 whether you're keying in a 10-digit number**  **18 that's your model number. And in many cases, 19 at least in my company, it's much shorter than**  **20 that, into a directory to determine the 21 efficiency of that unit I'm struggling with**  **22 why that's not acceptable versus requiring a**

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## 1 manufacturer to -- we have one label on there **2 at least in my company's instance. I don't 3 think it could be incorporated onto the**  **4 current label. 5 So that would be an additional**  **6 label for us. An additional label for us 7 means another person on our manufacturing**  **8 line. It means the cost of that label, the 9 labor to put it on. And it probably could not**  **10 be a label that would be -- just because of 11 the design of our units I'm not sure the label**  **12 could be consistent among all manufacturers. 13 So now you have this issue where**  **14 all manufacturers are going to have different 15 labels and the wording is going to have to be**  **16 what can physically fit on that unit. 17 But what you have today is**  **18 something very, very consistent. You can look 19 at the model number of almost any**  **20 manufacturer's 13 or 14 by just reading that 21 model number. It says either 13 or 14**  **22 somewhere, probably in that model number.**

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## 1 It's pretty easy today. **2 So, I'm struggling with why doing 3 this, I mean that's about as electronic as you**  **4 can get. It's easier than getting your 5 scanner to work on your phone.**  **6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 7 Let me draw a comparison to what we discussed**  **8 yesterday. 9 Industry says it's too time**  **10 consuming and expensive to mail in a postcard. 11 It's too time-consuming and expensive to put**  **12 an additional label on, and there may not be 13 real estate enough to even find a space for**  **14 it. 15 But it's no problem if the**  **16 building inspector has to get out their 17 computer and look up electronically the AHRI**  **18 database. 19 MR. EISNER: Other comments?**  **20 MR. HURST: iPhones. I mean, 21 everybody has a browser in their pocket now,**  **22 so.**

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## 1 MR. HUNGERFORD: All right, can I **2 step in here? This is David Hungerford with 3 the Energy Commission.**  **4 Can you guys hear me? 5 MR. EISNER: Yes.**  **6 MR. HUNGERFORD: You know, I'm not 7 really as concerned here with the ability of**  **8 professionals like the installers, like the 9 building inspectors -- I'm getting feedback so**  **10 I'm fairly confused. 11 My main point is that it's the end**  **12 consumer that needs to be the target of this 13 label. And I think -- smaller and the**  **14 standards is the most important element. 15 And to that end, the consumer is**  **16 not going to be able to look anything up no 17 matter what kind of education campaign you do.**  **18 Awareness of public education 19 campaigns on neighboring engineering details**  **20 like this are in the single digits. So, 21 that's not going to work.**  **22 A conspicuous label, as Gary**

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## 1 pointed out, that points out not just the SEER **2 number because -- or EER number in our case is 3 not very useful either.**  **4 A label that says something to the 5 effect of this unit is for sale in these**  **6 states, not for sale in other states subject 7 to federal penalty in large enough type**  **8 somebody can read it standing next to it is a 9 built-in incentive for installers not to put**  **10 in the wrong unit because somebody is going to 11 see that.**  **12 And for the consumer to be able to 13 see whether he's getting the right unit**  **14 installed. I mean, that's self-enforcing. 15 Something like that could eliminate the need**  **16 for all kinds of database development and 17 reporting requirements and tracking and all of**  **18 that if you just had something simple like 19 that in place.**  **20 So, let's not abandon the idea of 21 a label as too costly because you'd have to**  **22 hire somebody to put a sticker on the box when**

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## 1 you're avoiding, potentially avoiding other **2 costs. 3 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen**  **4 with Rheem. I'd like to respond to that. 5 So if your concern is that the**  **6 homeowner ensures that he's getting the 7 correct unit that is covered today in the new**  **8 appliance labeling rules that go into effect 9 in January where the retailer is required to**  **10 give a copy of that energy guide label to the 11 homeowner. So he will have that information.**  **12 So, does it allow for people to go 13 walk up and down neighborhood blocks and look**  **14 at units? Maybe not. But they still could do 15 it because, you know, the model number is**  **16 still on that unit. 17 The homeowner is already going to**  **18 be getting this information. It's required. 19 We can have Tim read us back the language**  **20 again. 21 So, you know, if we're wanting to**  **22 develop a police force to go out there and**

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## 1 check it then, you know, that may not be good **2 enough. 3 But from what I just heard from**  **4 the California Energy Commission is they want 5 to make sure that the homeowner knows that**  **6 he's bought a compliant unit. We have a 7 method that does that.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Karen, this is Doug. 9 So I guess the scenario that may be**  **10 envisioned, though, is the consumer who buys 11 it and gets the energy guide label, doesn't**  **12 know what it is and puts it aside, is not 13 savvy.**  **14 But then the 75-year-old 15 grandmother's grandson comes over and he goes**  **16 out in the backyard and he says oh Grandma, 17 did you notice this label on your air**  **18 conditioner says it shouldn't be sold in Utah, 19 and here we are in Utah and you have it. Then**  **20 she says oh, I didn't know that. And then 21 they call the number.**  **22 So, I guess what these folks are**

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## 1 saying is there are scenarios where having the **2 information on the unit itself, where it would 3 not disappear and where we know it would**  **4 always be present would be a nice check on 5 that.**  **6 And so I appreciate the fact that 7 it sounds like the manufacturers want to go**  **8 back and talk to your folks and get at least 9 some numbers and a sense of whether this could**  **10 be accomplished. 11 But I think there's at least some**  **12 value in this discourse. I don't want to 13 dismiss it as something that is really**  **14 unwanted because there is some value. 15 From the Department's point of**  **16 view I'm not going to bring in an enforcement 17 case without verifying the model through every**  **18 means necessary to make sure the model number 19 is actually noncompliant.**  **20 But I think as far as alerting the 21 Department to mistakes which is what the**  **22 concern is here. A lot of people are saying**

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## 1 the industry can police itself and these extra **2 checks can help provide that. 3 So, it seems like an ask that's at**  **4 least worth researching further from our point 5 of view.**  **6 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with 7 Ingersoll Rand. Manufacturers are committed**  **8 to doing that. 9 And I just want to circle back on**  **10 what the characterization has been here I 11 think.**  **12 It's not that we're unwilling to 13 do it. It's that we're saying there is a real**  **14 cost and it is not insignificant. 15 But we're not willing to do it and**  **16 simply it doesn't make sense to do it if 17 there's not enough of a consensus in the room**  **18 that it would be an important tool in aiding 19 in compliance. That is our point.**  **20 So, we're not going to do it and 21 then have people say it's really not that**  **22 useful.**

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## 1 So what we're looking for is a **2 reasonable degree of clarity on just how 3 useful it would be so that we can perform some**  **4 kind of cost-benefit analysis if it's worth it 5 for us to do. That's really what we're saying**  **6 here. But regardless we are going to go back 7 and investigate it.**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 9 MR. SACHS: Hey, Gary, put your**  **10 hand up. It's my turn. 11 (Laughter)**  **12 MR. FERNSTROM: My hand is 13 supporting my chin here, Harvey.**  **14 It seems to me that a reasonable 15 ability to determine compliance is important**  **16 in the determination of compliance. 17 So, being able to look at a label**  **18 or mark or number, a performance number on the 19 unit that would indicate whether it's**  **20 compliant or not is an essential part of being 21 able to determine compliance.**  **22 And the ease with which that can**

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## 1 be done is important because if it's even the **2 last bit difficult I would submit that it may 3 not be done.**  **4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I'd 5 like to reflect back to Jordan's comments.**  **6 First of all, that I appreciate 7 the manufacturers are taking a look at it.**  **8 And you really boil it down to 9 saying is there a benefit that's larger than**  **10 cost. 11 And I'd offer a little bit of**  **12 empiricism, anecdotal though it be. I am an 13 occasional user of the AHRI database. I found**  **14 Eric's briefing yesterday very helpful. 15 It is still something that is a**  **16 learned skill and one will make a lot of 17 mistakes the first time or the only time one**  **18 tries to access this. And it will be 19 frustrating.**  **20 It is -- if the goal is for 21 consumers to be easily able to verify the**  **22 performance as indicated by the label I do not**

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## 1 believe that that's the tool. **2 Similarly, I've spent a lot of 3 time working with the various forms of**  **4 nomenclature used for coding model numbers by 5 all of the manufacturers and that has an awful**  **6 lot of ambiguities that have good reasons. 7 Each manufacturers use different coding**  **8 sequences. So, I'm a little concerned about 9 that.**  **10 From these experiences and from 11 the repeated exercises in frustration of not**  **12 only trying to learn these but trying to 13 master the incredibly complex second and third**  **14 generation programmable thermostats I'm not 15 sure the manufacturers always on their**  **16 technical sides have real clear insight into 17 the limitations of the consumer.**  **18 So for those reasons I do feel 19 that having a visible permanent label would**  **20 have value. But I don't know -- have 21 significant value. But I don't know that it**  **22 has value that's greater than its cost.**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: Right, so this is **2 Doug. So at least we have, you know, the 3 manufacturers will look at it.**  **4 Perhaps you could help us 5 understand how best to quantify the benefit so**  **6 we can come back to you with some thoughts on 7 -- to help you with your analysis.**  **8 Because you know you have a number 9 of votes here so we want to make sure that we**  **10 have an ability to persuade those votes if we 11 decide to go in a certain direction.**  **12 So, is there any way that you can 13 help us understand what would illuminate to**  **14 you how to quantify the benefit to the 15 Department or the consumers by being able to**  **16 look at something. 17 It seems to me as just -- on a**  **18 verbal level it's very helpful. But I want to 19 give you something better for your analysis so**  **20 you can go back to your managers and they can 21 make an informed decision on how they think**  **22 you should go. So that's very helpful.**

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## 1 MR. SACHS: You know, if I might **2 amplify one piece of this. There are a 3 variety of approaches encompassed with this**  **4 idea of permanent label ranging from a change 5 to the nameplate which may be inside the unit**  **6 and is all in microtype, at least to my eyes, 7 to large signs wrapping around the condensing**  **8 unit saying "Not legal for sale in Florida." 9 And these various alternatives**  **10 have various impacts on the consumers and 11 widely vary in cost for the manufacturers.**  **12 I think you should challenge us to 13 try to coalesce around what's the least**  **14 intrusive that would be effective. 15 MR. RAWALD: I agree, Harvey, that**  **16 sounds like a great endeavor for you to lead 17 the group in in a homework assignment.**  **18 MR. SACHS: I think I'm going to 19 bounce that one upwards to Elizabeth.**  **20 (Laughter) 21 MR. RAWALD: I mentioned over the**  **22 break that we also talked to the installers.**

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## 1 And an idea that Laura Degitz from Navigant **2 put forward was not only a label from 3 manufacturers, but is there any sort of desire**  **4 to have a label on the product from the 5 installer. So, to identify installed by, you**  **6 know, this company. 7 So if we knew that, hey, this is**  **8 actually a non-compliant unit we then actually 9 could link it back to who installed that. As**  **10 opposed to relying upon somebody five years -- 11 remembering, oh yes, that was installed by**  **12 this company. We're able actually to place a 13 label on the unit.**  **14 What I'm talking to Charlie 15 McCrudden about is apparently that there is a**  **16 practice in the industry of using some sort of 17 magnet that the servicing technician will put**  **18 on some way. 19 But is there some sort of desire**  **20 or some sort of efficacy in having a 21 requirement that the installer have some sort**  **22 of more permanent label placed on the outside**

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## 1 of the condensing unit to indicate that **2 they're the one that installed that so we know 3 who would be the bearer of responsibility for**  **4 any sort of actual installation of a 5 noncompliant product?**  **6 MR. EISNER: I have a question 7 about that because I was wondering about that**  **8 also. Because I always -- when somebody comes 9 in to do something in my house I do find that**  **10 magnet or stick around my unit afterwards 11 because they want me to call them for repairs.**  **12 But, if I know it's illegal to 13 sell it in that house am I going to put my**  **14 label on there that I installed this illegal 15 unit? Charlie?**  **16 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is 17 Charlie with ACCA. I think you've hit on**  **18 something which is how do you set an 19 enforcement policy for a part of an**  **20 enforcement policy, which is how would you 21 compel contractors to put that on.**  **22 I think what I'm going to do, and**

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## 1 I'll take an assignment back to my folks and **2 see what is the prevalence of applying that 3 magnet.**  **4 You know, I know a lot of 5 contractors do because, you're right, they do**  **6 want you to call. 7 And one of the things we talked**  **8 about though is that you may have a situation 9 where someone calls a different contractor who**  **10 comes in and then they remove the magnet of 11 their competitor and put their own magnet up**  **12 because they want you to call them. 13 So then now we're getting into**  **14 sort of like, well, how would you make a 15 permanent magnet, or a permanent label or**  **16 sticker. 17 And I'm fascinated by details.**  **18 And I'm fascinated by the FTC labeling 19 requirements which talk about the adhesive**  **20 that must be used. It talks about the paper 21 stock that's required on manufacturers. And**  **22 it's amazing to me what goes into this.**

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## 1 I don't want to go down that road **2 because I don't think we want to have to 3 figure out adhesive, durability of the label**  **4 itself, size. 5 I mean, if you look at the regs it**  **6 talks about the font size. Everything on that 7 FTC label is there. Nothing else can be**  **8 there. The only I think sort of voluntary 9 mark might be the energy guide label if you**  **10 chose to put it on your FTC label. 11 But I'd like to go back and talk**  **12 to my folks. Look at the prevalence of the 13 magnets. I think there may be something to**  **14 this. If it's feasible and cost-effective and 15 can sort of lead to compliance.**  **16 I think it won't be a problem for 17 a compliant contractor who's already putting**  **18 something on there saying I'm, you know, I'm 19 the one who installed this, make sure you call**  **20 me for any service. 21 But if it could be one of these**  **22 things where we're going after the good and**

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## 1 allowing the bad to still elude. But let me **2 go back and talk to folks about it. 3 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug real**  **4 quick before John Hurst. 5 So, I guess, once again I**  **6 definitely understand the theme of we don't 7 want to overburden those compliant. We don't**  **8 want to make the cost of compliance outweigh 9 the benefits of non-compliance. That's always**  **10 a problem, right? So we want to make sure 11 we're very careful with that.**  **12 But what I think would be an 13 interesting data point to hear from your folks**  **14 is if they showed up at a place and they had 15 a name would they be more likely to call up**  **16 the number and say I know who it was that 17 installed that bad unit.**  **18 Because from the Department's 19 point of view if I got a report of a bad unit**  **20 being installed that had the name of the guy 21 that installed it too that's a lot more**  **22 valuable and a lot more useful for me.**

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## 1 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And I understand **2 that. This is Charlie with ACCA again. 3 I would say that our members are**  **4 interested in the process, or a way to make 5 that call. They're frustrated by non**  **6 compliance because they're the ones who get 7 beat and underbid.**  **8 And I think if there was a simple 9 and easy way to drop a dime on a non-compliant**  **10 contractor that would be helpful. 11 MR. EISNER: Is there a simple**  **12 technology whereby you set the unit up but it 13 won't start until you punch a code? Like your**  **14 tax code number or something? 15 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I'm going to let**  **16 the manufacturers caucus on that one. 17 (Laughter)**  **18 MR. EISNER: John? 19 MR. HURST: John Hurst with**  **20 Lennox. I like the idea. I'm concerned, 21 though, that the contractor, like Chuck's**  **22 company, they'll have a sticker or they'll**

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## 1 have a magnet. **2 They're doing the right thing. 3 They want a relationship with the consumer.**  **4 I think back to a time 10 years 5 ago when my house was robbed. They obviously**  **6 broke the law. They didn't leave a business 7 card.**  **8 So, again, I get back to a lot of 9 these are great ideas but the people that will**  **10 comply are the people in the chain that are 11 doing the right thing.**  **12 And so I also think to the new 13 construction, kind of the blow and go that's**  **14 not looking for a relationship long-term with 15 the consumer, they're not a servicing**  **16 contractor, they're a new construction 17 contractor, they're not putting up a magnet or**  **18 a sticker either. 19 The other comment I wanted to make**  **20 is around the labeling and the font size and 21 the stickiness of the gum that affixes it.**  **22 We have units that are exposed to**

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## 1 the elements. And I go out in my own **2 backyard. The data plate is, I don't know the 3 technical term, but it's rugged-ized. It will**  **4 stay there for a long, long time. 5 And then there's other stickers**  **6 that are on there that have weathered with the 7 wind and the rain and the sunshine that we get**  **8 in Texas. 9 So, you know, if we think about**  **10 this and you want additional information maybe 11 the data plate -- and again, we have homework**  **12 to do. Maybe the data plate is the place that 13 you put it.**  **14 And I don't know how much real 15 estate is on there. I've got to go back and**  **16 look at it as well. 17 And you might say well, geez, a**  **18 condensing unit's huge. But a good chunk of 19 it's louvered. And it's hard to put stickers**  **20 on louvers. So, you know, we've got to go 21 back and investigate that.**  **22 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with**

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## 1 Allied. And just to add a little clarity, the **2 FTC energy guide label is not one of those 3 labels that will stand up to weather very**  **4 well. Over a fairly short period of time it's 5 going to become illegible. And John is right.**  **6 There's also, for the unit data 7 plate there are safety requirements on where**  **8 you can place that label. 9 So, all of that has to be taken**  **10 into consideration as we're looking at this 11 also.**  **12 MR. EISNER: In terms of the life 13 of the label is there any time period after**  **14 which it's relatively useless to take 15 enforcement action? In other words, if it was**  **16 installed five years ago, is that something 17 where it's effective to take enforcement as**  **18 opposed to trying to find it right away within 19 the first year or some time period?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: That's really more a 21 question for me. And so I think we have a**  **22 statute of limitations question there, like**

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## 1 how old the installation would be. So there **2 are other issues that would kind of percolate 3 from that.**  **4 So, but I think that for the life 5 of the unit, it's going to have the same SEER**  **6 value, right, so as I understand it it's not 7 going to suddenly change from a 13 SEER to a**  **8 14 SEER. 9 So, I think the life of the unit**  **10 would be the ultimate goal of having it be 11 indicating what its performance is.**  **12 I know there's a question from Ray 13 and also from Chuck here for a bit now.**  **14 MR. ELLIS: This is Ray from LEC. 15 I was just thinking on the positive side for**  **16 the manufacturers as -- and I don't even begin 17 to understand the nuances of good advertising.**  **18 But as the DOE starts in its 19 enormous educational campaign to tell**  **20 everybody across the country what their air 21 conditioning unit should be I would think that**  **22 it would be an opportunity for the**

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## 1 manufacturer to say, hey, look at us. All **2 you've got to do is look here and this is a 3 SEER 14 rated unit. Buy from us.**  **4 You know, I would think it would 5 be a positive thing.**  **6 As a Carrier customer myself I 7 find it, you know, I know our unit out back**  **8 it's not very easy to find the information. 9 You've really got to look really hard.**  **10 And I was just thinking of, I know 11 John Hurst had said something about**  **12 everybody's got an iPhone. You know -- a lot 13 of people do and I understand that. But there**  **14 are a lot of elderly people across the country 15 that don't and don't want one.**  **16 And so, you know, to think that 17 they will be able to go in and look up this**  **18 data readily on a computer or something else 19 is really I think a far reach.**  **20 But I totally appreciate what 21 you're saying.**  **22 MR. HURST: John Hurst with**

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## 1 Lennox. The other challenge that I have kind **2 of along those lines. My dad's 86 and he's an 3 engineer and he's fairly well versed. And he**  **4 will bird-dog things. So he might be an 5 unusual case.**  **6 My mother on the other hand could 7 walk out back and see her unit 14 SEER, 28**  **8 SEER, 4 SEER. She wouldn't -- I don't think 9 the average consumer even knows what they're**  **10 looking at. 11 My mother does know that she's in**  **12 the State of Virginia right now. She does 13 know that. And my kids know that they're in**  **14 the State of Texas. So, to the point of SEER 15 ratings and looking at serial numbers, you**  **16 know, maybe an accommodation. 17 Again, we've got to go back. Real**  **18 estate is really difficult, but this unit is 19 compliant for the North and it's not for the**  **20 South. 21 I'm in Texas. Pretty sure that's**  **22 in the South. Now, it gets to be a little**

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## 1 more difficult when you're along the border **2 but we may have to consider simplicity where 3 the average consumer, or the average building**  **4 inspector, or the average dealer can look at 5 the box or look at the unit and say this is**  **6 going in the wrong place. And not have them 7 have to go through some technology search to**  **8 do it. 9 And so my commitment is to go back**  **10 with my counterparts and look for ways that we 11 can do this and make it easy.**  **12 MR. EISNER: I think we have our 13 homework assignment on this one and I'm**  **14 wondering whether it's time to turn onto 15 another issue.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: If I could just -- 17 this is Doug. I do want to appreciate that**  **18 what John said to me thinking of narrowing the 19 aperture, right? Because the concern is 13**  **20 SEER units ending up in the South. 21 And so it's possible for us to**  **22 think about in the Harvey and Elizabeth task**

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## 1 whether all we really want is to have those 13 **2 or below-14 SEER units bear a recognizable, 3 distinct indication that they shouldn't be**  **4 somewhere else. 5 And would such a limited request**  **6 actually bear less cost to the manufacturer. 7 Or would it be more difficult to have a**  **8 different kind of label for only those 9 products. Something to think about as far as**  **10 when you're thinking about your cost analysis. 11 MR. ELLIS: Yes, one last thing or**  **12 two on the installer issue. 13 Like the unit installed in my**  **14 house, I'll just use that as an example. The 15 guy that did it, Mercury Controls, he took a**  **16 magic marker and wrote his name and phone 17 number on inside and outside and they're both**  **18 readily available. And I can tell you that 19 the weather in Montana is pretty severe**  **20 sometimes. So it, you know, it can be done. 21 And I think it just -- again, we**  **22 might be punishing the good players as John**

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## 1 keeps bringing out, but if you can't find a **2 label on the unit as a homeowner it may be 3 that that will in itself start to raise flags**  **4 on whether or not the unit is compliant. 5 And believe me, don't**  **6 misunderstand that people across the country 7 are starting to take note of these sorts of**  **8 things. We're finding real changes in the 9 utility industry that 20 years ago, 10 years**  **10 ago we would never have thought would take 11 place.**  **12 And it's kind of resonating from 13 the homeowner and what they want. It's really**  **14 changing the paradigm for us and the model 15 that we had used for a hundred years.**  **16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with 17 AHRI. I guess to go back to Doug, an ID to**  **18 focus just on those non-compliant units, the 19 13 SEER units.**  **20 But how would you address the 21 Southwest? Because a unit that would be**  **22 eligible to be sold in the South might not be**

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## 1 in the Southwest. **2 MR. RAWALD: No, Karim, I think 3 you raise a good issue. So I know Karen was**  **4 waiting to talk too before. And Chuck has 5 been ignored for a little while here.**  **6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with 7 Rheem again. And you know, I still struggle**  **8 with whether we want this on the unit. 9 Because the average homeowner, I mean if you**  **10 look at the FTC label today it's got the 11 states and it says where it's involved, where**  **12 that unit can be sold. 13 And if we as a manufacturer have**  **14 to put another 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper in our 15 installation instructions that repeats that**  **16 information to me that's going to be much more 17 useful than my 83-year-old mother walking out**  **18 to the unit and getting down. Most of you 19 have seen what the nameplate looks like on a**  **20 unit. 21 And putting South, North, or**  **22 Southwest, I fail to -- nobody even knows what**

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## 1 those states are except for most of us in the **2 room. They don't know what encompasses that 3 area.**  **4 So, while -- is that really the 5 most effective use for the homeowner to look**  **6 at? 7 You know, when I have a problem**  **8 with my refrigerator I don't go pull it out 9 from the wall. I go to my use and care manual**  **10 that I got with my refrigerator and I look at 11 how I, you know.**  **12 So let's be careful what we're 13 asking for because I'm not sure putting that**  **14 on the nameplate is really going to get the 15 homeowner much assurance versus a map. And**  **16 remember that FTC label. It clearly says 17 where that unit can and cannot be sold.**  **18 MR. GIBBONS: Karen, you said 19 installation instructions. You meant**  **20 homeowner -- 21 MS. MEYERS: Homeowner.**  **22 MR. GIBBONS: The homeowner**

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## 1 manuals that we all ship with -- **2 MS. MEYERS: The use and care 3 guide. I forget what we call it. Yes, the**  **4 homeowner -- 5 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from**  **6 Carrier. 7 MS. MEYERS: That's correct. And**  **8 that to me is what's going to help. 9 I mean, they're getting the FTC**  **10 label already, or they will in January because 11 we're going to be required to.**  **12 I mean, I just ask everyone to 13 think is a more effective way not putting**  **14 something in the homeowner instructions so 15 people don't have to walk out to the unit and**  **16 look at it. It's just a question I think 17 everyone needs to consider.**  **18 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 19 I think the FTC label is really good.**  **20 My question is just whether or not 21 whoever is coming to look at the unit is going**  **22 to be seeing the FTC label or not. And if the**

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## 1 carton's gone which is most likely going to be **2 the case it's not going to be there to be 3 seen.**  **4 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White 5 with PHCC. I guess I've got a laundry list.**  **6 I thank John for his kind comments 7 about my business, but linking it to your**  **8 house getting robbed shortly thereafter. 9 (Laughter)**  **10 MR. WHITE: And you want to force 11 my company to advertise on everybody's unit.**  **12 Gee, that's a terrible thing. 13 I think a lot of contractors do**  **14 that. There are some people that don't. But 15 Charlie is right that many times the next guy**  **16 puts his sticker over your sticker. I've seen 17 a lot of units where there's three, four, five**  **18 stacked up. Because I don't want you calling 19 the other guy. I'm going to keep blotting out**  **20 the names. I mean, it's just kind of how it 21 works.**  **22 I think that if we do have**

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## 1 whatever requirement that a contractor put a **2 sticker on you are going to have the adhesive 3 and the font size and it's just going to have**  **4 to be that way. 5 If the contractor is responsible**  **6 for putting it on there there's -- unless the 7 consumer, unless somebody goes out and looks**  **8 and makes sure that the right contractor put 9 the right sticker on I could still create a**  **10 sticker for McCrudden Air Conditioning and put 11 it on there and I put it in but everybody is**  **12 going to call him. 13 So, I mean there are opportunities**  **14 for -- no matter how you slice this there's 15 opportunities to cheat the system.**  **16 Something I'd like to throw out 17 which applies to this a little bit but not**  **18 necessarily is something I'm going to steal 19 from my NATE committee work.**  **20 We consider test questions for 21 technicians related to the industry. And so**  **22 we come up with some rather interesting and**

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## 1 obscure things. **2 One of the rules we try to live 3 by, we call it the 80/80 rule. Will 80**  **4 percent of the technicians have a reasonable 5 expectation of seeing this 80 percent of the**  **6 time? 7 And so you can vary those words a**  **8 little bit and you can vary the percentages a 9 little bit, but it's a way to kind of quantify**  **10 what is reasonable in some of these 11 discussions, that I can ask for particularly**  **12 difficult, obscure things, but is that really 13 reasonable.**  **14 And a lot of the things we've 15 discussed here I think fall into the -- yes,**  **16 that's pretty reasonable. But maybe there's 17 some issues with doing it one way or another.**  **18 I think we have a commitment from 19 a lot of people around the table to talk to**  **20 their respective parties. I guess I would 21 like to suggest that even though I don't --**  **22 I'm not a manufacturer and they make the label**

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## 1 and they stick it on the box and do all that, **2 they have to do a label anyway. 3 So, I think it would be fair to**  **4 say labeling is at least in the easy quadrant. 5 Maybe not all the way at the top end of it,**  **6 but it's going to be on the easy side, and I 7 think it's going to be effective, and I think**  **8 it's important. 9 So if we could kind of quantify**  **10 that. We know we need to do something with 11 it. We know it's got to get ironed out a**  **12 little bit. But I think it's going to be easy 13 and effective. And maybe we can think about**  **14 it that way and move on. 15 MR. EISNER: One more comment.**  **16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I 17 just want to bring up things I think are**  **18 factual about the question of labels. 19 One of them is that it's easy to**  **20 disparage the express stipulation of font 21 size, color and everything else.**  **22 But that's actually a protection**

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## 1 for everybody in the industry. It says if you **2 do it this way which is a spec you can give 3 the printer you're not going to get beat up.**  **4 And it's some standardization. 5 So, when I first saw that it was**  **6 last year in another negotiation outside of 7 DOE on a water heater issue that at least one**  **8 of the firms, heater and air conditioning, was 9 also represented in. And it was considered**  **10 for that product line -- I'm not saying that's 11 at all true for this one -- was considered**  **12 that a warning label about installations was 13 a relatively easy thing to do on the spectrum**  **14 from impossible to oh yes, no problem. 15 So, just want to offer those two**  **16 things as a little bit of the outsider's view 17 inside, looking into what I've seen, and a**  **18 little bit of a comment on labels. End of 19 rant.**  **20 MR. EISNER: Again, my thought is 21 it's time to move on because we've got to get**  **22 some information back from the manufacturers**

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## 1 who did say they would like to look at this **2 more over the weekend. 3 So with that, again in terms of**  **4 where we are, I believe we're still on number 5 1. I would ask whether anyone still wants to**  **6 pursue the idea of (a) luminescence, or have 7 we agreed that that might not be possible**  **8 because it would require FTC to make a change? 9 Or do we want to talk about that issue a**  **10 little more? 11 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I'm**  **12 ready to move past that suggestion. I don't 13 think it's something that the Department can**  **14 really get behind. 15 But I did want to point out that**  **16 there was a hope that some folks would take 17 back as homework for a long-term project kind**  **18 of designing what would be the most effective 19 FTC label to meet everyone's needs. And maybe**  **20 towards the end of the negotiation bring it 21 back to the group.**  **22 So I don't know if some folks want**

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## 1 to volunteer to be doing that, or if we just **2 want to trust someone is going to take up that 3 charge.**  **4 And Karim raised his hand in the 5 back as saying he wants to at least work on**  **6 that somewhat. 7 MS. MEYERS: What's the time-line?**  **8 MR. RAWALD: So, we have a meeting 9 scheduled for late September. I think if we**  **10 could bring something back for that meeting 11 that would be probably the most useful thing.**  **12 And if you have something as a 13 working product and you want to bring it to**  **14 the group and we can circulate it among the 15 group, possibly give it to Amy and she could**  **16 forward it around to folks to look at in 17 preparation for that meeting would be an idea.**  **18 And I guess it doesn't need to be 19 anything graphical as much as it needs to be**  **20 an idea. But if you want to put together a 21 graphic idea that's always more helpful.**  **22 But I mean, just something that**

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## 1 gives us a kind of sense of here's what we **2 think would be the most helpful thing to 3 suggest to the FTC long-term for conveying the**  **4 information we think is important. 5 MR. EISNER: That gets us to**  **6 number 2, tear-off labeling mailed in by 7 manufacturer, distributors, contractors.**  **8 Anybody want to state the case for this? 9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I've**  **10 put a lot of thought into it and I just -- 11 from the point of view of just a concern of**  **12 being buried in information that may not be 13 all that useful for us from an enforcement**  **14 point of view. 15 I get what Gary is saying that**  **16 this could be a large deterrent value. I 17 just, from our point of view it might be an**  **18 overload of information that's not going to be 19 all that useful from my perspective. From**  **20 being able to enforce things. 21 Now, encouraging compliance is a**  **22 different issue. And I know Gary has talked**

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## 1 about that at length. **2 But from my perspective I would 3 have a hard time recommending that kind of**  **4 course to the Department given just the 5 overwhelming amount of information I'd**  **6 probably get from it. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary.**  **8 I appreciate the burden, but if the Department 9 doesn't know where these air conditioners are**  **10 installed how is it ever possibly going to be 11 able to fulfill its responsibility to assure**  **12 compliance through some targeted audit effort? 13 MR. EISNER: Can I ask a question**  **14 here again in terms of data from your work? 15 Do you believe that a tear-off label where**  **16 there is no way you can force compliance with 17 that by the purchasers or installer will be**  **18 mailed in in a case where it's illegal? Is 19 there data to show you'll still find out about**  **20 it? 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, to respond**  **22 to that I would suggest that if the chain from**

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## 1 the manufacturer of the product to the **2 installation address is broken because someone 3 failed to send in the card, then that would be**  **4 a cause for investigation. 5 MR. EISNER: Explain what you mean**  **6 by that. Are you saying we would put a burden 7 on the manufacturer to provide us with a trace**  **8 to the distributor and a requirement on the 9 distributor, et cetera, and then we could find**  **10 where the chain got broken? 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, precisely.**  **12 Each stage in the channel, or player in the 13 channel, the manufacturer, the distributor,**  **14 the retailer, contractor, installer who was 15 last to touch it at the point of installation**  **16 in my mind would be obligated to tear off 17 their piece of the label, write down the**  **18 pertinent information and send it in. 19 And if the chain is broken, that**  **20 is to say for every manufactured product there 21 is not an installation address because someone**  **22 along the way failed to send it in then that**

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## 1 would be a cause to investigate who didn't do **2 their part. And that would be a breach of 3 compliance.**  **4 MR. EISNER: Do you want to talk 5 about whether you could handle this?**  **6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, we can -- just 7 one more quick comment.**  **8 You know, we can dispense with 9 this idea of postcards. But I would suggest**  **10 that if we do there is going to be no way with 11 certainty that we will be able to determine**  **12 compliance in any case that we might choose to 13 audit.**  **14 MR. EISNER: I'm not disagreeing 15 with that. I raised a question yesterday.**  **16 Somebody gave the number, I think it was John, 17 21 million units would have this tag.**  **18 This tag would have multiple parts 19 to it. So 21 million times however many**  **20 parts, 4 or 5, being mailed in. I question 21 whether they can handle that kind of data. I**  **22 also question the cost of mailing in, the 21**

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## 1 million times whatever. **2 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I 3 think the number was actually 7 million**  **4 products times 3 because we have 3 labels. So 5 it was 21 million labels total.**  **6 But I would want to narrow the 7 aperture because what we'd really want the**  **8 label to be on would be those 13 SEER units. 9 So we wouldn't need to have such a label on 14**  **10 SEER and above. 11 So, it would be a smaller group.**  **12 So I guess there's at least that 13 consideration.**  **14 In some way what Gary is trying to 15 do which I appreciate from my point of view is**  **16 give me a tool to investigate. 17 And so what it might be best to do**  **18 is to table dismissing this idea until we see 19 what kind of tools everyone else is able to**  **20 give me on the table. 21 You know, if other folks are able**  **22 to say I'm pulling up these resources that**

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## 1 will eliminate the need for Doug to have such **2 an onerous process that might alleviate Gary's 3 concern and help me feel more comfortable**  **4 saying, okay, I think we'll come to the table 5 with ideas for things that I can use to track**  **6 shipments that would meet my needs. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary.**  **8 I totally agree, Doug. I have proposed a very 9 onerous kind of last resort solution here.**  **10 If we can find something that is 11 workable that's quicker, easier, better that**  **12 would be great. 13 MR. EISNER: Anybody else want to**  **14 talk about this? 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And**  **16 just as an addendum, a reminder that Gary is 17 in a state which is Southwest which has the**  **18 EER requirement. And that's because of peak 19 load concerns, particularly critical peak load**  **20 concerns. 21 So, this brings us back to Karim's**  **22 request that we not ignore the particular**

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## 1 issues associated with the Southwest units as **2 opposed to the Southern units. 3 And I have no idea how to do this,**  **4 but I'm starting to try to think about it. 5 MR. RAWALD: So I guess with that**  **6 it sounds like we're comfortable punting on 7 this one for awhile and see what else the**  **8 group can come up with on investigative tools. 9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Tracking chip**  **10 on units. Radio frequencies coming off labels 11 could be problematic. RFID chips. Does**  **12 somebody want to make the argument for this 13 being on the list?**  **14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Was this your 15 idea?**  **16 MR. EISNER: I'm not going to make 17 the argument for it though.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: And that's Charlie 19 McCrudden pointing to Neil as our facilitator.**  **20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And 21 with all due respect I think that for our**  **22 purposes the CR label is an easier thing to**

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## 1 do. **2 I do not know, however, if that 3 label can be individualized down to serial**  **4 number level as opposed to model level. 5 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. When**  **6 you say the CR label you mean the discussion 7 we had before?**  **8 MR. SACHS: The iPhone imaging 9 labels.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. 11 MR. SACHS: QR. Excuse me, I'm**  **12 sorry. Don't tell my son I said that. 13 MR. EISNER: I'm learning more**  **14 about your families and your individual 15 states' weather than I thought I would learn**  **16 in this kind of a meeting. Everybody's got 17 some great stories to tell.**  **18 QR codes I think the little thing 19 this big can store lots of bits of**  **20 information. 21 MR. WHITE: They can store lots**  **22 but somebody has to be there and deal with it.**

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## 1 I mean, the RFID chip is **2 interesting. Feasible? Probably not. 3 Probably we have some leftover**  **4 Star Wars tracking satellites that maybe we 5 could make them track all these air**  **6 conditioners globally. DOE is part of the 7 government, maybe they can work on that on the**  **8 side. Just a thought. 9 (Laughter)**  **10 MR. WHITE: I mean, it's I think a 11 novel idea, but I'm not sure it's**  **12 implementable. 13 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug.**  **14 And it certainly would be a matter for me to 15 go back, talk with the lawyers. Because I**  **16 think I discussed before there are some legal 17 implications with DOE driving down the street**  **18 with a scanner, pulling into people's houses, 19 whether that's actually in some way an**  **20 unlawful invasion of their privacy. So we 21 have to look at that further.**  **22 I just don't know from an**

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## 1 efficiency point of view if it's something **2 that we'd actually be able to implement 3 practically.**  **4 Once again, this would really only 5 be useful if the people who were looking at it**  **6 like the homeowner and the servicing 7 contractor were able to detect from the RFID**  **8 that it was wrong. And I think a label is 9 much simpler and much more cost-effective than**  **10 this concept would be. 11 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst**  **12 with Lennox. I did a little research on RFID 13 last night. It's a very effective tracking**  **14 product going through a distribution facility, 15 or a warehouse, or even in a retail**  **16 application where the product passes under or 17 around a scanner anywhere from 2 to 10 feet.**  **18 To get ranges of up to 300 feet, I 19 think 50 cents was tossed around yesterday,**  **20 requires battery backup to transmit further. 21 So, the 50 cents becomes 50 cents plus the**  **22 cost of a battery. So I think before we even**

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## 1 go down that route we'd have to understand **2 even the feasibility of the ranges involved. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. So this one**  **4 comes off the list? We get to communication, 5 down sales chain. First thing is DOE public**  **6 outreach and (a) is consumer homeowner 7 education. Who would like to start off on**  **8 this one? 9 MR. HURST: John Hurst again.**  **10 Sorry. Up here I think we might want to call 11 it -- I can't see where you went. Where was**  **12 the outreach part? 13 Yes, communication down the sales**  **14 chain. There is a lot of communication. As 15 a matter of fact I bet there was a lot of**  **16 communication yesterday from manufacturers to 17 distributors. I know I did. I think you did.**  **18 I think you did too, John. 19 I would just like to add that the**  **20 public outreach may be to the consumer from 21 the DOE. But we will do, manufacturers and I**  **22 think distributors and even contractors will**

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## 1 do a lot of outreach as well. We already are **2 with our customers. 3 I'd just like it to be noted that**  **4 public outreach just doesn't mean the federal 5 government funding some public outreach, that**  **6 we'll do it through the chain as well and that 7 needs to be acknowledged.**  **8 MR. EISNER: Do we want to 9 acknowledge it or do we want to put something**  **10 in the rule about it? 11 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan Rocky.**  **12 So, I don't think we need to put something in 13 the rule because under the discussion of the**  **14 prohibited act manufacturers are going to be 15 required to over-communicate this situation**  **16 through our distribution chain to contractors 17 on what's required.**  **18 We're going to do it by multiple 19 means, printed letters, webinars, meetings.**  **20 We'll coordinate it through the trade 21 organizations like AHRI. We'll be involved,**  **22 you know, the other trade organizations**

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## 1 involved here will all communicate as John was **2 talking about. 3 So, I mean this is multifaceted.**  **4 We're going to get to the point of 800 5 numbers, Twitter feeds, Facebook. I mean**  **6 everything that we can possibly think of to 7 communicate this to try to put the message**  **8 out. 9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I**  **10 think that Neil's last sentence was really 11 helpful.**  **12 What we're looking for here is 13 what do we want to put in the regulation that**  **14 will require Department of Energy to do as far 15 as reaching out to the public.**  **16 Understanding that folks are going 17 to do a lot of things that make sense from a**  **18 business point of view anyway, what things do 19 you want the Department to be required to do?**  **20 And then when I get an idea of 21 what those things are I can bring them back to**  **22 those people that would pay for them and see**

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## 1 if they're willing to pay for them so I could **2 find out if I could vote for them. 3 So I need to understand what kind**  **4 of things do people envision the Department 5 needing to do in a public outreach campaign.**  **6 That would be required by regulations such 7 that I would put it in a regulation the**  **8 Department will do X. 9 MR. EISNER: Let me suggest here**  **10 too that what -- if the final rule says here 11 what DOE will do, do you want in the preamble**  **12 to have DOE say DOE also expects that the 13 industry will do some of the following kinds**  **14 of things? And you just gave a very nice list 15 ending with "and explore other opportunities."**  **16 Do we want to put that up here now 17 to be in the preamble in addition to what**  **18 we'll talk about that should go in a rule? 19 Because that would be helpful I think to say**  **20 that. 21 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with**  **22 Rheem. I think part of the DOE outreach**

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## 1 should also include some type of outreach to **2 contractors. 3 Because you have contractors out**  **4 in the market that might buy from several 5 distributors. So they're not necessarily a**  **6 customer of anyone's. 7 And so I don't think you can put**  **8 the burden on the manufacturer or the 9 distributor to make sure he knows what the**  **10 rules are. 11 But it is a rule and I think the**  **12 public outreach should not just say to 13 consumer, but should also make some attempted**  **14 effort to make sure contractors are aware of 15 the rules as well, especially since they're**  **16 the primary people who are going to be held 17 accountable for bad installations.**  **18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and 19 I'll make an ask of DOE. And that ask is that**  **20 you provide technical support and can seek 21 funding to support a PSA campaign to be**  **22 executed by environmental advocacy**

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## 1 organizations. **2 We have the regional energy 3 organizations in the Southwest, in Utah and**  **4 the Southeast. And the very large membership 5 organizations, NRDC and Sierra both come to**  **6 mind, who tend to be opinion leaders and can 7 help propagate these messages in the regions**  **8 which are going to be affected. 9 I'm trying to frame it in the form**  **10 of an ask of DOE. 11 MR. RAWALD: So, Harvey, this is**  **12 Doug. I'm trying to make sure since you're 13 more familiar with government grant speech**  **14 which this sounds like it's going to be kind 15 of -- you're looking for that kind of money**  **16 for this to NGOs to put out the word. Is that 17 correct?**  **18 MR. SACHS: If that's the easiest 19 way to formulate it for this process that's**  **20 cool. I was trying to be a little bit 21 ambiguous, but a commitment to support**  **22 outreach campaigns in collaboration with --**

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## 1 you can call them NGOs and that's probably as **2 good a term as any. 3 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **4 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary 5 for the California IOUs. In the context of**  **6 who might provide a public awareness campaign, 7 maybe utilizing DOE funding if that's**  **8 available, I think in California the 9 California Energy Commission would be the**  **10 entity of choice because it has an outreach 11 and awareness program for energy efficiency**  **12 within the state. 13 MR. EISNER: Let me ask if there's**  **14 any advantage to also considering whether 15 there are other governmental agencies that**  **16 would want to participate such as FTC and EPA. 17 And whether they might have funding too. It**  **18 might even be more effective. 19 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with**  **20 HARDI. Doug, would it be possible for you to 21 bring back some details of the public outreach**  **22 that the Department did during the light bulb**

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## 1 phase change-out campaign? **2 I recall seeing some ads during 3 that. So that maybe we could get a better**  **4 idea of what the Department did in that 5 instance and how much resources were devoted**  **6 to doing so. 7 MR. RAWALD: It's a good ask and I**  **8 have really no numbers or idea for what past 9 public outreach campaigns are on that. So**  **10 I'll go back and ask. And there may be 11 someone that I can even bring to the meeting**  **12 who would be smart to talk on what we've done 13 before.**  **14 What I can volunteer is that what 15 the Department does from an energy efficiency**  **16 enforcement point of view on a regular basis 17 is webinars for industry members all up and**  **18 down. 19 And so I think a webinar type**  **20 thing is certainly well within the area of a 21 reasonable ask, that we could put together**  **22 webinars.**

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## 1 Now, how accessible that is to the **2 average person is the question. That might be 3 more available as a tool to use with the**  **4 contractors as opposed to the homeowners. 5 But that's at least something**  **6 that's been done before and not unprecedented 7 and I don't think overly expensive. But I**  **8 can't speak for sure. 9 I'm just curious what other terms**  **10 or ways of delivering messages are folks 11 thinking of? Are we talking about mailers?**  **12 Are we talking about commercials? Are we 13 talking about radio spots? Like, what are**  **14 people really envisioning as an effective way 15 of putting the message out to people that we**  **16 want to get the message to? 17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is**  **18 Charlie with ACCA. I think -- we're talking 19 about a product that people aren't thinking**  **20 about buying until they have to. And that's 21 the reality.**  **22 So, you can spend a lot of time on**

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## 1 mailers and TV ads, but unless you sustain it **2 for a long time, until someone has to make 3 that purchasing decision they may not --**  **4 unless it's sustained then it's just going to 5 essentially fall on deaf ears.**  **6 I think that we have on the energy 7 guide label already, and I don't want to talk**  **8 about changing the energy guide label, but we 9 have on the energy guide label this website**  **10 that a consumer or somebody, anybody can go to 11 which is productinfo.energy.gov which I think**  **12 links you to the CCMS which you can type in. 13 And I think there's something**  **14 instructive in that which is let's talk about 15 websites, something that DOE puts up and maybe**  **16 it's something that everyone can link to. You 17 know, it's a stand-alone website. I would**  **18 even suggest separating it out from the DOE 19 URL or give it its own URL so it's not sort of**  **20 lost in all the DOE stuff. 21 And I think what needs to be there**  **22 is information -- you know, we have**

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## 1 information for the contractor, information **2 for the distributors, for the basic question, 3 and then information for the homeowners.**  **4 And I think the information for 5 the homeowner has to perhaps suggest or**  **6 explain why we now have regional standards. 7 And sort of have DOE sort of essentially say**  **8 we did this because. And my experience with 9 other transitions and change-outs, contractors**  **10 get a lot of questions about why am I paying 11 more for this product. Because three weeks**  **12 ago my cousin bought the same product or a 13 similar product and now mine is this much more**  **14 expensive. 15 And that's important that that**  **16 information comes from DOE and not from the 17 contractor, and not from even ACCA even though**  **18 we do that. 19 You know, when we saw spikes in**  **20 the price of refrigerants back in the 21 beginning of 2012 and 2013 we had to put out**  **22 what we call a comfort tool which is something**

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## 1 that our members can take and put their logo **2 on. 3 And they explained why the price**  **4 of refrigerant had gone crazy, and why now the 5 top-off that they paid $100 for last summer is**  **6 now $300. 7 If that message though comes from**  **8 the government and it explains why this is 9 happening, then I think it legitimizes the**  **10 consumer's sense that this guy's not trying to 11 rip me off.**  **12 So, and that was -- I think that 13 message might have been in our comments back**  **14 in 2011 or '12, whatever it was. But I think 15 that's critical, yes.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: So, Charlie, to 17 follow up on that, would you envision then a**  **18 DOE-created handout that the contractor would 19 give out --**  **20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Sure. 21 MR. RAWALD: -- to the consumer?**  **22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. With the DOE**

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## 1 logo. And then possibly a little -- you know, **2 camera-ready with a little corner where the 3 contractor can put his logo on it, or maybe**  **4 the manufacturer puts their logo on it. I 5 don't know if they'd want to choose to do that**  **6 or not. But something that it's -- there's 7 sort of common ownership of what happened and**  **8 why this -- why you may see your equipment 9 more expensive.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And this is 11 Doug. So, Charlie, I do know a little bit**  **12 about logo usage from the Department's point 13 of view. So there are some tricky legal**  **14 issues with co-logoing together on the same 15 document. So we can look at that.**  **16 But I understand the ask about the 17 handout for the individual installers. We'll**  **18 take a look at that as well. 19 MR. ELLIS: Doug, this is Ray from**  **20 LEC. Also too, don't forget your influence -- 21 I know you won't -- over TVA, Southwest Power**  **22 Authority and others that, you know.**

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## 1 And they usually serve a lot of **2 cooperatives. And there's some enormous 3 cooperatives in the South that serve 250,000**  **4 consumers or members, so households. And they 5 have a very close relationship with their**  **6 members. 7 And like our utility we send a**  **8 letter out, a notification -- not a 9 notification, but a publication out every**  **10 single month. And we do -- several pages of 11 that is on energy efficiency.**  **12 And so, you know, you can use your 13 influence over TV and others to try to pass**  **14 that message through the utility to get to 15 their members.**  **16 And it's all about rates. Charlie 17 was talking about what's the end result. And**  **18 the savings ultimately is the fact that the 19 utility doesn't have to buy additional energy**  **20 to supply it for the households. 21 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt**  **22 Lattanzi at NORDYNE. In terms of reaching the**

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## 1 contractor one thing that I find that many **2 contractors have in common, when they're 3 visiting a distributorship and they're out to**  **4 counter it's -- at almost every 5 distributorship I've ever walked into on the**  **6 counter is all sorts of trade literature, 7 publications, magazines. There's usually a**  **8 copy of the news. And there's regional 9 publications as well.**  **10 I can't remember the name of the - 11 - somebody jump in here if you can remember**  **12 the name of it, but there's a regional 13 publication for the Southeast and different**  **14 states. 15 But it's very common for these**  **16 contractors while they're ordering equipment 17 or parts or whatever that they spend some time**  **18 at the counter on a stool flipping through 19 these publications.**  **20 So, in terms of reaching the 21 contractor that might be a good avenue to**  **22 either put something in these publications by**

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## 1 the Department of Energy or just a pamphlet **2 from the Department of Energy right there on 3 the counter that the guy's got right in front**  **4 of him. 5 And then Karen mentioned this, but**  **6 from the perspective of manufacturing in our 7 websites, you know, NORDYNE.com or rheem.com**  **8 or whatever, I mean we certainly would be 9 willing to help with outreach and put**  **10 something on our websites that are commonly 11 visited by contractors and distributors as**  **12 well. And homeowners, exactly. 13 MR. ROCKY: So, Matt was referring**  **14 to a publication called HVAC Insider that has 15 regional magazines as well as a national**  **16 magazine. I think they have like 17 approximately 30 different versions that go**  **18 out, states or regions. 19 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, Bryan, that's**  **20 exactly -- this is Matt. That's the 21 publication I was thinking of.**  **22 And that's free to contractors and**

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## 1 it's very common. And I think, and Chuck, you **2 can help elaborate on this, but a lot of these 3 guys spend some time and they pick up that**  **4 publication on a routine basis. It's free, 5 there's a stack of them on the counter and**  **6 it's right there in front of them. 7 MR. WHITE: Yes, Chuck White.**  **8 That's true and most of the wholesalers or 9 distributors have bulletin boards where things**  **10 go up. Banners that can be put up behind the 11 counter that don't need a lot of detail but**  **12 have some attention-getting. 13 SEER 14 in the South. You know,**  **14 you get their attention and it makes them ask 15 questions, gets them thinking about it.**  **16 Anything to start pulling people into this 17 information.**  **18 I know PHCC, I'm sure ACCA. I 19 don't mean to speak for Charlie, but I'm sure**  **20 we will have lots of programs developed, 21 seminars. We'll have mailers. We'll have**  **22 lots of information going out to our**

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## 1 contractor members to make sure. **2 And it won't just be people in the 3 South because you have border issues. We have**  **4 contractor members that operate in multiple 5 states. We will pass this information along.**  **6 The other thing is the people who 7 write trade magazines, they're always looking**  **8 for copy. They need information to put out. 9 So they would be more than happy to pick up on**  **10 these stories, pick up on this information. 11 If we sent them any short blurb**  **12 about anything that happened at these meetings 13 it would be in the next edition.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: And I guess -- this 15 is Doug. I'd like to hear from Steve and**  **16 possibly from John, maybe John Hurst because 17 they have a distribution process too, about**  **18 the willingness or the ability to display kind 19 of the information from DOE in the local**  **20 distributor and how effective that would be. 21 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,**  **22 Johnstone Supply.**

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## 1 Yes, we've already probably sent **2 out 500,000 pieces with regional standard 3 changes on it already. So, we have to explain**  **4 to the contractor why he's now buying that 5 equipment and why our inventory, you know, why**  **6 he has to pay more, number one. 7 And we'll have to explain the 18-**  **8 month time lag and why they can buy it even 9 though the regulation says this time frame.**  **10 So the settlement has to be communicated as 11 well.**  **12 We have put that out already 13 though. We're way ahead of this issue coming.**  **14 I think I ran a mailer in August which has it. 15 We would put your website obviously as a link**  **16 so they could get more information or at least 17 put that in the flyer.**  **18 So, we pretty much cover every 19 contracting company in the United States.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. 21 So, like we talked about with Charlie, the**  **22 possibility of having a DOE piece of document**

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## 1 that they would then hand out to their **2 customers. Would that be something 3 distributors would want as well? Something**  **4 that you could hand to your customers. 5 Something official from DOE explaining what**  **6 the situation is? 7 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter from**  **8 Johnstone Supply. Yes, we would put mailers 9 in the stores if you produce them. Or**  **10 trifolds or whatever it is that you want to do 11 to communicate the message.**  **12 MR. EISNER: John? 13 MR. HURST: Very similar to what**  **14 Steve said we would have loyal customers that 15 we could -- if they transact business with us**  **16 online we could do banner ads. We could do 17 "Click here for further information."**  **18 For over-the-counter customers, 19 customers that come to our locations and buy**  **20 across the counter, table tents, mailers, 21 flyers. We reach them in many different ways.**  **22 I think one thing that would be**

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## 1 very helpful, I get a lot of "I heard such**2 and-such from so-and-so who talked to their 3 rep from Rheem or Carrier or NORDYNE or**  **4 wherever. And I heard that Rheem's in a 5 meeting up in Washington. And there's a lot**  **6 of disinformation out there. 7 So, I think in a very simple,**  **8 frequently asked questions format that would 9 be very helpful to contractors, where you** **10 break it down and very simply explain real 11 life examples that they would run into.**  **12 That would be very effective 13 versus having five pages of a regulation**  **14 probably wouldn't do very well at the counter. 15 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from**  **16 Carrier. One of the key points Steve pointed 17 out was the grace period.**  **18 Because I can see it now. There's 19 going to be a contractor comes in, it won't be**  **20 Chuck but it will be somebody else that says, 21 you know, I'm selling 13 SEER today and I'm**  **22 going to sell it next year. And you can buy**

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## 1 it, Mr. and Mrs. Homeowner. **2 But then Chuck does come in and 3 he's got a 14 SEER unit and he looks like he's**  **4 out of place. 5 Homeowner needs to understand the**  **6 grace period too, that it's a transition to 7 regional standards and not just a, well, I'll**  **8 say flushing of the old inventory but that 9 quite frankly is what it is.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And 11 so, I'd like to hear some suggestion on how**  **12 best to explain that. So maybe folks can 13 think about how best to message that.**  **14 I mean, I'm no marketing person. 15 I'm sure that DOE has some people. How do you**  **16 message that particular issue, the grace 17 period? That seems a little bit more**  **18 difficult to explain to a consumer, why I 19 could buy one built December 29 but I can't**  **20 buy one built January 2. 21 How come I didn't get that one?**  **22 My distributor didn't have it? How is that**

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## 1 fair to me? So can't you go with a guy a **2 little further away who might have that in his 3 warehouse?**  **4 So, how do we effectively message 5 that question without causing a lot of**  **6 consternation? 7 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.**  **8 That's an issue. The old joke, how much are 9 eggs? Ten cents, five cents for cracked.**  **10 Well, crack me a dozen. 11 It's a fact that's been set up.**  **12 And if the product is in the warehouse it's 13 going to get sold through and there are going**  **14 to be people out there who -- there are going 15 to be some contractors out there that say,**  **16 well, okay, they have the stuff but I want to 17 sell 14.**  **18 But there are going to be others 19 that are going to try and move that as a sales**  **20 item. I would expect -- don't know, but I 21 would expect the SEER 13 stuff is going to be**  **22 out of those warehouses pretty quick.**

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## 1 Given what happened when SEER 10 **2 went to SEER 13, SEER 10 stuff went like 3 hotcakes at the end. My own personal**  **4 expectation is that stuff will be moved pretty 5 quickly and you'll be to manufacturer's date**  **6 after January 1. 7 I don't know, I'm not a**  **8 manufacturer, I'm not a wholesaler, I'm not a 9 warehouser so I'm speaking a little out of**  **10 turn, but I would expect probably most 11 inventory of the common sizes will be depleted**  **12 well before the 18 months. Some oddball stuff 13 is going to still be floating around.**  **14 MR. DORIA: So, this is Jordan 15 with Ingersoll Rand. I agree fundamentally.**  **16 I think that there is certainly the potential 17 for confusion here.**  **18 But I think the point you made is 19 a good one. And to put it into context for**  **20 people might be useful for people to say that 21 in a manner of speaking this grace period and**  **22 depletion of inventory is exactly what you had**

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## 1 under a data manufacture-based approach which **2 is what they're all familiar with. It's just 3 that that approach is not going to continue in**  **4 perpetuity going forward. 5 So, in many ways it's really just**  **6 that. But then beyond that you're going to 7 have this new paradigm of date of install.**  **8 So, I mean, that doesn't answer the whole 9 question, but just trying to explain to people**  **10 that this grace period actually isn't that 11 unique in that regard.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts, ideas 13 for this list?**  **14 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter, 15 Johnstone Supply. I'll take that as a**  **16 takeaway to come up with some language that 17 you could use that would possibly help you**  **18 with the homeowner, or explain that. 19 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I appreciate**  **20 that, Steve, because I think the grace period 21 is particularly tricky to explain to someone**  **22 given the implications on availability.**

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## 1 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter again, **2 Johnstone Supply. I don't think there's going 3 to be a big problem with it because even as I**  **4 sit here and put my taxpayer hat on I hope you 5 don't spend too much money on getting to the**  **6 consumer. 7 You know, you can do your**  **8 education piece and I would caution you to -- 9 I don't know a homeowner that could tell you**  **10 what -- no offense to my manufacturer friends 11 here -- that could tell you what they have in**  **12 their house as a piece of equipment, or the 13 name brand of it.**  **14 So, I mean, a once or a twice in a 15 lifetime purchase experience just doesn't --**  **16 it doesn't resonate with the consumer. So, 17 you know, I'd just caution you on that money.**  **18 That's why I don't see it being 19 too big a problem. Because even with an**  **20 education campaign I think it will be very 21 difficult to educate consumers on this issue,**  **22 or have any understanding of SEER. I can't**

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## 1 imagine sitting there trying to explain it to **2 them. So, I think it would be very difficult. 3 MR. RAWALD: Yes, this is Doug.**  **4 And so the thing I'm going to have to talk 5 with folks that spend money is how to justify**  **6 spending that money in a judicious and 7 targeted manner. So hearing from people what**  **8 you think is most effective is important. 9 And also thinking about the time**  **10 frame for doing such. Like, how long do we 11 really want to keep doing this.**  **12 I mean, I don't want to mail it to 13 someone that they throw away and then a year**  **14 later they wish they had that mailer. So it's 15 a question of really trying to figure out what**  **16 the most effective way of spending money on 17 this kind of thing would be and how to do it.**  **18 And so I appreciate the thoughts you guys have 19 offered so far.**  **20 MS. NOLL: Doug, this is 21 Elizabeth. Along the lines of the light bulb**  **22 campaign, which I think is worthwhile to see**

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## 1 what DOE did there, as well you guys do **2 technical assistance to states for building 3 codes.**  **4 So it might be worth looking into 5 that program in terms of what I know they do,**  **6 I had it pulled up, webinars and technical 7 assistance and outreach. And there's a number**  **8 of things that maybe someone in that program 9 could help.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Okay, I'll look at 11 that.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Other ideas? Anybody 13 think -- are there any keywords missing from**  **14 the list under (a), 1(a)? 15 All right, if not, anybody object**  **16 to our going onto the next issue? Why don't 17 we take a break for 10 minutes, come back and**  **18 start there? 19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **20 matter went off the record at 10:56 a.m. and 21 resumed at 11:10 a.m.)**  **22 MR. EISNER: Okay, number 2 item**

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## 1 on our list under communication is a DOE **2 database of contractors, et cetera. Anybody 3 want to make the case for that? Nobody's in**  **4 favor of that one? DOE database. Anybody 5 want to make an argument for it?**  **6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with 7 Rheem. I mean, I think that's a nice carrot**  **8 to put out there, but you know, I think we 9 need to understand more about how that would**  **10 work. 11 I mean, I think I actually need to**  **12 hear from Charlie and Steve on this, but I 13 think if I were a contractor and I had my name**  **14 on a government website that says essentially 15 I'm a good actor that that would have a**  **16 positive impact for a small business owner. 17 So, it doesn't necessarily mean**  **18 that they're a good actor, but maybe they've 19 been through the training, or they've agreed**  **20 and they acknowledge, they understand it. So 21 I don't know. That's just kind of my initial**  **22 concept.**

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## 1 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie **2 with ACCA. 3 When I was thinking about this,**  **4 you know, sort of visualize this database or 5 what this would look like.**  **6 You know, if we're looking at 7 anywhere between say forty and one hundred**  **8 thousand, or however many thousands of 9 contractors there are out there I don't know**  **10 if that's manageable in a sense for you to 11 find -- I mean, is it true we're going to go**  **12 to this site looking to find the name of a 13 contractor.**  **14 To be honest, I would prefer the 15 other, the opposite website which is the one**  **16 where if we ever figure out what the threshold 17 is for routine violators that to me would be**  **18 the more effective discouragement for a 19 contractor versus what do I get out of them**  **20 putting my name on there kind of situation. 21 And I just don't know if it's**  **22 manageable. I mean, I don't know database**

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## 1 management well enough. I don't know what it **2 costs and I don't know what Doug thinks of 3 this type of database and whether you have the**  **4 authority or the capability. 5 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. I**  **6 have not asked the people who finance these 7 things if they are capable or willing of doing**  **8 such. And I don't want to get them too far 9 afield in looking until we feel -- gain some**  **10 momentum. 11 It's not an unprecedented thing**  **12 that we have though, because we have our 13 database of consumer and commercial products**  **14 and equipment which is in the millions and 15 millions of basic models being listed in that.**  **16 So I think we could easily handle the number 17 of contractors.**  **18 And once again, narrowing the 19 aperture to those that would be in the regions**  **20 that we'd even care about. I don't think 21 there would be any basis for having folks who**  **22 are operating only in the North to even be**

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## 1 signed up in this database. So we'd be **2 splitting off those folks from it entirely. 3 So, I think it's at least a**  **4 reasonable ask that I can make if folks 5 thought it could be of value to them.**  **6 When I proposed this idea on 7 Tuesday I was thinking of it almost as more**  **8 useful to the manufacturer and the 9 distributors in deciding who they're going to**  **10 deal business with rather than the consumer 11 side of things.**  **12 Because the manufacturer can look 13 at it and say, oh, I'm not going to deal with**  **14 distributor X because they're not on the list. 15 They've got to make sure they do their thing**  **16 before I'm going to deal with them. 17 And just like distributor -- like**  **18 Steve could say well, I'm not going to deal 19 with Chuck this week because he's not on the**  **20 list. I want to make sure he's on the list 21 before I start selling stuff to him.**  **22 So I see it almost as more useful**

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## 1 on that side of things than a check from the **2 industry point of view on who you're dealing 3 with. More from a consumer getting on it and**  **4 looking at it. That's probably how I'd 5 envision it being used more.**  **6 And that's completely translatable 7 to the current database we have. Because**  **8 while our database is overwhelming and I think 9 many consumers look at it and are overwhelmed**  **10 by information, many importers won't import 11 something until it's on there. So they**  **12 require the company that they deal with to 13 ensure their product is on there.**  **14 Or a retailer won't stock that 15 product until it's on our database. So it's**  **16 being used by a lot of places that I didn't 17 initially visualize are using it. So I think**  **18 there's a lot of other possible utility to 19 this beyond the consumer end of things.**  **20 MR. DORIA: So, this is Jordan 21 with Ingersoll Rand. I understand and that's,**  **22 I think, an important distinction.**

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## 1 I think the challenge with a **2 database that would essentially have what 3 we'll call all the good actors who have not**  **4 committed some kind of violation and have 5 signed on to some presumably code of conduct**  **6 is that ultimately it wouldn't get everybody, 7 right? Some simply would choose not to sign**  **8 up. 9 So, using the example that Doug**  **10 just gave that would mean that we're not doing 11 business with people who've simply chosen**  **12 potentially not to sign up. 13 I think if what we're actually**  **14 talking about is a tool for distributors and 15 OEMs to guide them in essentially who they**  **16 want to do business with Charlie's -- I won't 17 call it recommendation, but Charlie's point**  **18 that it would be easier to have just a list of 19 who's actually violated would be much better.**  **20 And as an OEM I don't want to be 21 in a position where I need to determine who is**  **22 a violator. I want the Department to have**

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## 1 made that determination and then we make our **2 business decisions accordingly. 3 Because otherwise we are put in**  **4 the position of both being the police and the 5 judge and I really don't want us to do that.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And I 7 don't view those two items to be mutually**  **8 exclusive either. I mean, we could have both 9 in that there could be a threshold for having**  **10 someone who's certified themselves as 11 compliant and also when someone is found to be**  **12 a routine violator we of course publicize that 13 and then they fall off the good person list if**  **14 they were on there already. So there's a 15 possibility of having both.**  **16 So I don't want to view them as 17 one or the other, or just putting out both**  **18 ideas and if there's some synergy for them 19 both we can consider them both together**  **20 possibly. 21 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White**  **22 with PHCC. I don't like the idea. I**

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## 1 understand where you see the positives, I get **2 that. 3 You're looking for the bad apples**  **4 by making a list of the good ones and you're 5 not -- they're not going to sign up. You are**  **6 effectively saying if you're not on my list 7 you can't work in this industry.**  **8 So, you've effectively created a 9 national license whether you like to say it**  **10 that way or not. 11 You are regulating commerce**  **12 whether you like to say it that way or not. 13 I think it's a real slippery slope**  **14 that -- it sounds great, but the net result is 15 a lot more intense than you think. And you**  **16 still haven't found what you're looking for. 17 Okay, if you know a good**  **18 contractor and you now know he exists and you 19 can find he did something wrong, you still had**  **20 to somehow find out he did something wrong 21 which is what you've got to do in the first**  **22 place for the other guys anyway. Somehow you**

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## 1 have to figure out how to find out who did the **2 wrong things, not who did the right. 3 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is**  **4 Doug. On Chuck's point, I think that's 5 absolutely correct. But this would not be a**  **6 tool for me helping to figure out who's 7 committing violations.**  **8 What it would be a tool is for 9 helping the industry police itself in some way**  **10 because you know that the person you're 11 dealing with has at least said they're going**  **12 to play ball so you can limit who you're 13 dealing with.**  **14 And then also it's some way of an 15 educational campaign because it provides a**  **16 method by which we ensure those folks who have 17 signed up are aware of what the rules are.**  **18 And so that's kind of how I would visualize it 19 working.**  **20 And I am very interested in 21 hearing more from you folks as far as the**  **22 possible downsides to your industry by having**

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## 1 such a control. Because I don't know what **2 kind of burdens it would place on the average 3 contractor. So I'd like to hear more about**  **4 that. I think I'm really curious about that. 5 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White**  **6 again. I would hazard that the wholesalers in 7 their respective areas know who their problem**  **8 children are. 9 And at risk of litigation they**  **10 can't just cut them off unless there's like 11 really solid reason why you don't sell to**  **12 these people. They -- kind of everybody in 13 the picture sort of has their hands tied. As**  **14 long as you don't do something egregious you 15 kind of keep moving.**  **16 And I don't know that I'm happy 17 about 100 percent of that but it's kind of a**  **18 fact of life. 19 MR. EISNER: Other comments?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I 21 looked at Steve because I was curious if he**  **22 had some response to the intimation that**

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## 1 distributors know who their problem children **2 are and couldn't cut off working with them if 3 they were refused to be on the list of**  **4 compliant contractors. 5 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,**  **6 Johnston Supply. I mean, we want to do 7 business with everybody obviously. And as**  **8 long as they pay their bills and conduct 9 themselves accordingly when they're dealing**  **10 with our employees then we're going to sell 11 them.**  **12 And we do know most -- we don't 13 know most I would say at a store level, if I**  **14 got down to a store level and we have 15 different counter personnel that may rotate**  **16 over time. Or a customer may come in and have 17 his favorite and so they don't necessarily**  **18 know them all. 19 I would say they know the majority**  **20 of those that purchase 80 percent of their 21 business I would say they know. They may not**  **22 have relationships with a contractor because**

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## 1 he has a primary distributor in town, but he **2 may happen to walk into our store. And maybe 3 only does that a couple of times a year or**  **4 once. So as long as he has a contractor's 5 license we're going to look at that.**  **6 I think where you run into this 7 database problem, Doug, or list is that**  **8 there's a high turnover in this. And they can 9 go back and come back as another company. So**  **10 they can rename themselves and come back as 11 something else which happens quite frequently.**  **12 I think that's the risk. 13 There's just so much turnover.**  **14 The data that I've seen on it is, you know, 15 startups, 80 percent of them fail in the first**  **16 year, 20 percent that are left, half of those 17 fail in the next 5.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: So, Steve, this is 19 Doug. If I hear you, there would be a problem**  **20 with how valid a list would be over any period 21 of time because there wouldn't necessarily be**  **22 -- it certainly wouldn't be a live database**

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## 1 like AHRI certification directory. It would **2 be a regularly updated one. 3 So, whether -- how current that**  **4 information would be at any time, and whether 5 there would be any consequences for someone**  **6 reincorporating under a different name. If 7 they have to re-certify or go through that**  **8 process. That would be at least a burden to 9 them in some way.**  **10 So, the idea that has been floated 11 so far. I thought it interesting, Karen**  **12 voiced a possible interest in it. Does anyone 13 else find it interesting? Does anyone else**  **14 want me to push some buttons in the Department 15 and see if we can get any Department interest**  **16 in it? Or do you want to put it aside as a 17 thing we're not really interested in right**  **18 now? What's the sense of the group? 19 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I**  **20 actually do find it interesting, especially 21 from that last note you made on the education**  **22 aspect.**

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## 1 I mean, if people are going to say **2 that they understand regional standards at a 3 very minimum you know who out there**  **4 understands what the law is. And that has 5 value.**  **6 But I think that, you know, you're 7 the one that made the comment yesterday about**  **8 you can't always say you're a dumb person 9 forever, so. I think there is value. That**  **10 was John saying. 11 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt**  **12 Lattanzi with NORDYNE. Doug, I think it's 13 something we should continue to explore and**  **14 look into further. I find it interesting as 15 well.**  **16 Off the top of my head I think 17 it's a pretty good idea.**  **18 MR. EISNER: What about someone 19 who's had three violations? If it's that easy**  **20 to go out of business and go across the street 21 and start all over again what are you going to**  **22 do about the one who has two and then just**

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## 1 reconstitutes himself or herself across the **2 street under a new name? Does that mean you 3 don't know yet?**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Oh, I thought you 5 were asking a hypothetical question.**  **6 So, we don't have an answer to 7 that question obviously. So we have to think**  **8 through what we'll consider, how that tag will 9 be borne. Is it borne by the individual, or**  **10 by the company? You know, this moniker of 11 violator.**  **12 The question of how, if we have 13 unique violations, do they follow that person**  **14 for the rest of their career? 15 There's a lot of I think nuance to**  **16 work out with that. I think that we haven't 17 even peeled that back at all. So, I think**  **18 that's something more for the group to 19 explore.**  **20 But I'm hearing at least some 21 people that are interested in the idea.**  **22 Possibly what I could do is I'll talk to some**

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## 1 folks at the Department about the Department's **2 willingness to even engage in this and come 3 back with you folks next week about that.**  **4 And if Charlie and Chuck could 5 think through and kind of what would be the**  **6 barriers to this that would make this really 7 not work for our folks because this is who it**  **8 would be affecting most. 9 But also, we're talking about**  **10 possible distributors as well. Because 11 they're in the statute as far as this routine**  **12 violation. 13 So Steve, and possibly you can**  **14 talk to Jon and think about whether your folks 15 would be willing to be on a list like that or**  **16 not, how that would affect you folks as well. 17 Because we haven't talked about**  **18 that. We've looked at it mostly from a 19 contractor and dealer point of view, but**  **20 distributors are in the statute so I want to 21 make sure that we consider that as well.**  **22 MR. EISNER: Is everybody ready to**

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## 1 put this off or do they want to say more about **2 it? 3 COURT REPORTER: Can you repeat**  **4 that, sir? 5 MR. EISNER: I'm asking if**  **6 everybody is willing to put this off, or 7 whether people want to have more discussion on**  **8 the subject. Seeing an overwhelming support 9 for neither I'll just make the arbitrary**  **10 decision we'll move on. 11 Okay, training to contractors,**  **12 distributors on compliance with regional 13 standards with the question provided by -- any**  **14 comments on that? Anybody want to make an 15 argument for it?**  **16 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, this is Matt 17 Lattanzi at NORDYNE. I think all of the**  **18 manufacturers, at least and for sure NORDYNE 19 does.**  **20 We provide various types of 21 training for both distributors and**  **22 manufacturers.**

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## 1 We have one venue, we refer to it **2 as a luncheon where the distributor brings in 3 contractors, feeds them a little lunch, and**  **4 then we do a webinar with a live question and 5 answer session.**  **6 I certainly would be willing to 7 sign up to provide that type of training for**  **8 contractors and distribution on regional 9 standards.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So I 11 want to keep the focus on the idea of having**  **12 a regulation requiring such training and doing 13 it. And so whether there's interest in that.**  **14 As opposed to kind of like a moral obligation 15 or a business obligation.**  **16 And I think I hear Matt saying 17 that he'd be willing to at least have it be**  **18 written in the regulation that NORDYNE would 19 do that. Is that correct? We'll explore that**  **20 topic further. 21 MR. LATTANZI: I guess I'd**  **22 probably like to take that back home as far as**

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## 1 it being written into the regulation. I'd **2 like to reserve the right to think about that. 3 I see a few people shaking their heads in**  **4 agreement. 5 But it certainly is something that**  **6 I think we can do. 7 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from**  **8 Carrier. I would agree with that. I would 9 like a lot more detail on frequency and extent**  **10 and a lot more detail on what training entails 11 and all that.**  **12 MR. EISNER: I would suggest that 13 some of this would be for you to say here's**  **14 what we'd be willing to live with in a rule. 15 We would do it once a year, or we would do it**  **16 as needed determined by X, Y and Z. 17 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt with**  **18 NORDYNE. That makes sense. If we flesh out 19 in greater detail and then I can bring that**  **20 back home, that would be very helpful. 21 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy**  **22 Shepherd from AHRI. And I think one thing**

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## 1 that could be in such a requirement would be **2 a requirement for training with maybe some 3 examples of the types of things that could be**  **4 done, but it's left up to individual 5 manufacturers as to how exactly they might**  **6 want to fulfill that requirement. Rather than 7 having sort of one specified locked-down idea**  **8 for everyone. 9 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with**  **10 Ingersoll Rand. I would agree with what's 11 been said.**  **12 I just want to maybe take a step 13 back for a second. One of the things that we**  **14 had decided really on day one is that we were 15 talking about a workable enforcement**  **16 framework. 17 And the question was asked about**  **18 whether or not all elements of that framework 19 necessarily needed to be regulatory**  **20 requirements. If there could be other means 21 that would help create a workable enforcement**  **22 framework.**

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## 1 And the decision was yes, there **2 could be. 3 So, I guess I just want to put out**  **4 there that if there could be some kind of, I 5 don't know exactly what other mechanism, some**  **6 sort of declaration or whatever it would be by 7 all the OEMs among perhaps others.**  **8 It's my understanding that that 9 would be in scope of creating a workable**  **10 enforcement framework. It doesn't necessarily 11 have to be in the actual final regulation.**  **12 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie 13 with ACCA. When you're talking about training**  **14 are you talking about perhaps a curriculum or 15 a standardized test? Possibly certification.**  **16 And I don't want to go too far 17 because now we're looking at requiring certain**  **18 things. 19 I think what I've heard from the**  **20 manufacturers sounds interesting which is sort 21 of this effort or attempt to provide training**  **22 to their folks, their dealers.**

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## 1 And I think this is already **2 happening. So I don't think it makes sense to 3 put it as a requirement to make this happen.**  **4 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst 5 with Lennox. I think the other challenge**  **6 would be many of us have different routes to 7 market and different channels.**  **8 And so a regulation written for 9 manufacturers, some of us own retail**  **10 locations. Some of us own our own 11 distribution. Some of us have a mix of**  **12 independent wholesale distribution and 13 company-owned distribution. It would be very**  **14 difficult to maybe have a one size fits all. 15 I think we all have marketing**  **16 departments. We all have training 17 departments. We all have an internet**  **18 presence. 19 I would prefer that -- it's**  **20 something that we're going to do as a matter 21 of course of regular business. And I think we**  **22 know our channels best. And I think we're**

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## 1 going to do it. I would prefer that we don't **2 try to do a one size fits all for identify 3 types of channels in the marketplace.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. So 5 I guess going back to Jordan's point which**  **6 maybe the manufacturers could caucus and think 7 of whether this is a joint statement you want**  **8 to release to say that you'll take these 9 particular steps in support of the**  **10 Department's efforts to enforce regional 11 standards. And we'll do X, Y and Z as**  **12 tailored to fit your particular business 13 model. Something like that might be helpful.**  **14 And we could include that language 15 in the preamble as Neil has offered to say,**  **16 hey, this is what we're willing to do to help 17 support the Department's enforcement efforts.**  **18 MR. EISNER: I would also suggest 19 in case the Department ends up with very**  **20 little meat on the regulation side that people 21 will question whether or not it's going to**  **22 work because nothing is really required.**

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## 1 The way to get to the kinds of **2 problems you were talking about, for example, 3 a different situation you have, John, is a**  **4 manufacturer will submit a plan for approval 5 by DOE of the kind of training it will do to**  **6 effectively implement the program. DOE says 7 it's okay, it's okay.**  **8 But it's a regulation. So if DOE 9 feels they need something stronger then we're**  **10 committed to helping in the preamble. That 11 may be one thing to think about.**  **12 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 13 Number 3 also says training to contractors and**  **14 distributors. It doesn't specifically state 15 manufacturer training to contractors and**  **16 distributors. 17 So maybe we also put on the table**  **18 is there a level of training that the DOE 19 would provide, be it a webinar or even just an**  **20 online tool. 21 I think it goes back up to number**  **22 one when we were talking about public outreach**

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## 1 campaigns. I feel like we're rehashing some **2 of the same conversations around what are the 3 tools that installers need. What can DOE do?**  **4 What can manufacturers bring to the table as 5 well?**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 7 So, from my point of view I already had**  **8 another take-back from a public outreach point 9 of view, the training we provide. And so I'll**  **10 follow up on that. 11 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with**  **12 Rheem. I don't mean to throw my buddy here on 13 the right under the bus but for my company we**  **14 sell to all independent distribution. 15 So, should there be a requirement**  **16 or should there be something from the 17 distributors that say they agree to do some**  **18 type of training too. I mean, they're the 19 ones who touch the contractors, at least from**  **20 the way we sell to the market, not me. 21 So, as we've gone through this**  **22 list today I think about 100 percent of the**

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## 1 burden has ended up on the OEMs on this. **2 And we're going to do training. 3 We also can develop training for our**  **4 distributors to use with their contractors. 5 I just don't have any authority to**  **6 force them to give that training to their**
**7 contractors. 8 So, if it's going to be in the**  **9 preamble that the OEMs are going to do X, 10 should it also include a statement that says**  **11 distributors of HVAC equipment are required to 12 do Y.**  **13 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter 14 from Johnstone Supply. First of all, we**  **15 appreciate you, Karen, and not selling against 16 us is very much appreciated.**  **17 We are willing, you know, 18 obviously distribution, as I've said we've**  **19 already put out literature on this issue. 20 We'd be happy to have the pieces available**  **21 that DOE is going to provide. 22 And hopefully that literature will** 

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## 1 maybe have a website that will have -- if you **2 do a webinar and you can that webinar so they 3 can actually go and watch it again and again**  **4 and again and again which, you know, I'm sure 5 it will be extremely fascinating and they may**  **6 want to view it multiple times. 7 So, I would put that on the**  **8 literature that we can give them. 9 But I think the industry will be**  **10 willing to provide lots of information over 11 this issue. Like I said, we have to explain**  **12 this to our consumers just on the basis of why 13 is this changing, why don't you carry that**  **14 product anymore, what is going on. I mean, 15 that question is going to get asked repeatedly**  **16 at every counter. 17 So I don't think the training**  **18 issue is a very difficult one for anybody. I 19 think the information is going to get out**  **20 there quite rapidly. 21 In fact, as soon as we figure this**  **22 out we have to get it out immediately. I**

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## 1 mean, everybody is waiting to get it out to **2 the contractor yesterday and I'm waiting to 3 get it out to the distributors yesterday**  **4 because everybody is purchasing for the 5 following year. So, everybody's kind of**  **6 waiting for the information. So I don't think 7 that's going to be a problem, getting this**  **8 information to contractors at all. 9 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White**  **10 with PHCC. And I would echo that. I think I 11 said last week or two weeks ago contractors**  **12 want to know what to do. Tell us what to do, 13 we'll do it. So, we need the information.**  **14 The reality is, at least from my 15 association's point of view, again speaking**  **16 Charlie's point of view, probably we're going 17 to do a lot of training.**  **18 We have done training about -- 19 we've presented information about this**  **20 process. But we don't know the answers to all 21 the things to tell people yet so we're kind of**  **22 at a roadblock.**

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## 1 But I'd like to throw some **2 parallels here. We stopped using R22 and went 3 to 410. Was there language written in that**  **4 that we had to make everybody do training and 5 we promise we'll do training?**  **6 We stopped SEER 10 and went to 7 SEER 13. Did we make everybody promise we're**  **8 going to do that then? 9 It happens. The industry is going**  **10 to respond and react. We're very grateful to 11 manufacturers that provide the information**  **12 they provide. We're very grateful to our 13 wholesalers who help us along the way.**  **14 Our associations collaborate on 15 things to get the message out. And my**  **16 contractor members are grateful all up and 17 down the line to have this help.**  **18 And we're certainly for anything 19 DOE can give us that gives us a uniform script**  **20 so we're all telling the same story and people 21 get the same message.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So I'm**

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## 1 interested in hearing from Chuck and Charlie **2 about how much training. 3 Because the one thing I always**  **4 think about what training costs for 5 contractors is its overhead. It's not a**  **6 billable cost to the customer. 7 So, how much training is palatable**  **8 and how much training would be useful from 9 that perspective?**  **10 MR. WHITE: Well, this is Chuck 11 White again. I'll throw this out there.**  **12 We're not -- it's not exactly rocket science 13 here. We're changing the SEER level and we're**  **14 throwing some geographic things again. 15 It's not like we're all of a**  **16 sudden going to 410 from when we used 22 and 17 we have some complicating issues to go with**  **18 that. That was certainly needed a lot more 19 information passed along, a lot more training.**  **20 That was a major change. 21 This is going to be, look folks,**  **22 if you're working in these areas you need to**

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## 1 know there's a demarcation line. You need to **2 know these are the products. Here's the 3 reasons why so you can give people some**  **4 background information. 5 There's a lot of information to be**  **6 passed out here. But it's not really 7 technically deep. It's not nuts and bolts**  **8 deep. The guy who's installing the equipment, 9 he has some changes, there are some**  **10 differences, but it's not a significant 11 radical departure from what we've done before.**  **12 So, yes, we've got some training 13 to do. We've got information to pass along.**  **14 But it's not something that we're going to 15 need a 40-hour seminar and sign off on a 100-**  **16 question test. 17 You know, here's the states.**  **18 Here's where you work. Here's the changes. 19 The Southeast and the Southwest, that's a**  **20 complication. 21 You know, we have information to**  **22 pass along but it's not -- we didn't suddenly**

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## 1 change the way the world turns. **2 MR. RAWALD: Chuck, this is Doug. 3 That's very helpful because I guess I'm trying**  **4 to figure out, first of all, the idea of 5 testing and all that, that seems to me to be**  **6 really far downstream, not the concern. 7 What I'm wondering is, is it a**  **8 one-hour course one time? Is it a three-hour 9 course one time? Is it a one-hour course**  **10 every quarter? Is it a five-hour course in 11 one time? What do people kind of have a sense**  **12 of what we're looking for in the amount of 13 training?**  **14 Because that may help the 15 manufacturers figure out how much it's going**  **16 to cost them to do this kind of thing anyway. 17 And from the DOE point of view how much it's**  **18 going to cost us, frankly, if we need to do 19 training.**  **20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie 21 with ACCA. I think Chuck's right. I mean,**  **22 this is relatively simple to change.**

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## 1 I mean, if you're near the border **2 you just need to understand what the rules 3 are.**  **4 Most contractors do little safety 5 toolbox talks once a week, once a month,**  **6 quarterly. Oftentimes they're incented by 7 their insurance companies that carry their**  **8 liability to have these little meetings. And 9 so perhaps this would be a 15-20 minute**  **10 session with the map, with the chart showing 11 what's legal where.**  **12 Recently OSHA changed the HAZMAT 13 placards. They harmonized with the global**  **14 HAZMAT placards. 15 And there was a required training**  **16 for all employees to the new standards. And 17 they weren't big.**  **18 I'd like to go back and look at 19 that because I don't think it was -- when I**  **20 say it was a required training I think all 21 employees were essentially required to be**  **22 trained to it, but there was no requirement of**

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## 1 what the training would be. **2 And so in that case there were a 3 bunch of third party vendors who put on**  **4 webinars that you could buy and you could in 5 one of your safety toolbox talks watch one of**  **6 these things. 7 I don't even think we need that**  **8 far. That's why -- I'm glad to hear what you 9 said because I don't want the training blessed**  **10 by DOE. I don't think you want to do that. 11 MR. RAWALD: And Charlie, I think**  **12 you're exactly right. 13 What I'm wondering about is as**  **14 part of any rule we're going to have to 15 consider what the effects are going to be in**  **16 our analysis. 17 So I want to be able to kind of be**  **18 able to -- even if the regulation only says 19 training to this perspective I want to be able**  **20 for us to articulate we've talked to the 21 stakeholders and they say this will be a one**  **22 hour burden on them once a year. That kind of**

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## 1 thing. **2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I think as part of 3 the materials that you put out for contractors**  **4 I think just review of that. I think that 5 would satisfy sort of the interest here which**  **6 is training contractors and distributors to 7 compliance.**  **8 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 9 I think 20 minutes is optimistic.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Optimistic that you 11 could fill up 20 minutes, or that you could**  **12 get through one in 20 minutes? 13 MR. WHITE: Following the premises**  **14 for 20-plus years. Twenty minutes is 15 optimistic.**  **16 But it's going to be somewhere in 17 that one- to three-hour range I would think.**  **18 I can't really imagine it getting beyond that 19 depending on what happens in the rest of these**  **20 meetings. It could always expand from there 21 depending on what happens.**  **22 But just from kind of where I'm**

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## 1 looking at it right now I think that one- to **2 three-hour kind of mark is -- I think there 3 hours is probably generous, very generous.**  **4 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter, 5 Johnstone Supply. I really don't see the**  **6 training, the issue on the industry side 7 really being a problem here.**  **8 Where you're going to get it is 9 where the homeowner as this goes on in years**  **10 down the road. Your communication, since all 11 contractors are homeowners, or most are, you**  **12 know educating the homeowner is paramount. 13 I see very little issue with the**  **14 industry on this issue. Maybe on the border 15 sides. Nobody's going to drive a long**  **16 distance to go up and get one and come back. 17 That would negate the cost delta anyway.**  **18 And I really think your problem is 19 going to be with online. I mean, online is**  **20 the issue where the homeowner could purchase 21 that directly and not be aware that they're**  **22 even doing anything illegal. And online**

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## 1 companies are not really represented here at **2 all. 3 And I think that's where your**  **4 problem with this whole thing lies, not with 5 the industry and contractors and distributors**  **6 at all. 7 If there's going to be violations**  **8 it's going to come from online. 9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And**  **10 so, thinking about what Steve says, thinking 11 a large part of training of the contractors**  **12 would be how to answer the questions from the 13 homeowners. Because that's -- they're going**  **14 to be getting the questions. And so how do 15 you deal with your customer.**  **16 Your customer is going to be upset 17 they're paying more for their product. How do**  **18 you deal with that? How do you explain? How 19 do you message this?**  **20 So that's part of the training as 21 well. Not just how do you identify that**  **22 you're installing the right product and what**

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## 1 are the consequences if you decide to skirt **2 these rules, but how do you tell your customer 3 what you're doing and encourage them if they**  **4 want heard from somebody else any different to 5 not hire that person because that person is**  **6 leading down a wrong path. And so kind of 7 that information as well.**  **8 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 9 Also, we aren't there yet, but we are going to**  **10 have discussion at some point about are we 11 going to whistleblow on people and turn people**  **12 in. 13 We want contractors and installers**  **14 to also understand the sell-through, the 15 cutoff recognition of products so that you're**  **16 not burdened with somebody calling and saying 17 I saw a 13 and it was installed on December**  **18 29. 19 Or it has the certain serial**  **20 number that puts it in the right date code 21 that that's going to be a part of it as well.**  **22 If indeed down the page here we're going to**

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## 1 encourage people to report bad actors that's **2 certainly going to be part of this training as 3 well.**  **4 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And this is 5 Charlie with ACCA. I want to retract my**  **6 previous statement about probably just using 7 a toolbox session.**  **8 Because now that I listen to 9 Chuck, he's right. There's a lot of details**  **10 here. 11 And it's easier in the Southwest**  **12 because it's based on the size component, you 13 know, the capacity of the system. And that's**  **14 going to be something that in the Southwest is 15 really going to confuse people, I think.**  **16 But there's also, what, 11 other 17 product categories that are seeing changes in**  **18 their standard? They're national. But it 19 might make sense to tell people that the heat**  **20 pump standard has gone up. And so now, you 21 know. There's a sell-through period for the**  **22 heat pump and it doesn't have a grace period.**

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## 1 But there is a grace period for **2 the sell-through on -- or Karen, are you 3 saying that there's no sell-through on heat**  **4 pumps? 5 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with**  **6 Rheem. The sell-through does not apply to 7 heat pumps. The effective date is date of**  **8 manufacture. You could sell 13 SEER heat 9 pumps as long as you have an inventory into --**  **10 for the next 20 years. 11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And that's what I**  **12 was saying. I may have ineloquently said it, 13 but yes. So what you have is you have a sell**  **14 through for heat pumps, but a grace period, a 15 shortened sell-through for central air**  **16 conditioners. And that may be confusing. So 17 there's a lot.**  **18 And then I think about it. I've 19 done a number of webinars. When I go to**  **20 chapters, I have a slide deck. I could give 21 it to you. You could use it.**  **22 And I explain everything. I mean,**

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## 1 I go through everything. And it takes me at **2 least 45 minutes to an hour. And I get a lot 3 of questions.**  **4 So yes, this is more complicated 5 than I thought.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Other comments on 7 this?**  **8 MR. HURST: Yes, John Hurst with 9 Lennox. A lot of the explanation that I've**  **10 been doing on these calls has been kind of the 11 moving pieces of this.**  **12 So, I think if we get a number of 13 the issues resolved the training burden is**  **14 reduced significantly with clarity. 15 And the draft guidance that's been**  **16 put out, the additional language we got 17 yesterday. If we can get this to a point**  **18 where it's fairly simple. 19 I think there's a few questions**  **20 that are out there that people are confused 21 by. And if the answers are simple and don't**  **22 require a lot of follow-up this could be as**

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## 1 easy as a few well-placed YouTube videos that **2 have a consistent message. 3 Now, I'm not negating the fact**  **4 that some people need more training and it 5 needs to be reiterated over time. But I don't**  **6 think if we get this to easy it's that hard, 7 if that makes sense.**  **8 MR. EISNER: Anything else? All 9 right, again I think we've got an issue with**  **10 homework and we can discuss again at the next 11 meeting.**  **12 Let's go on to number 4, use of 13 AHRI database certificates.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And so 15 we had an extensive presentation on this**  **16 yesterday. And obviously this will be a tool 17 that I will use in investigating anything.**  **18 I'll look at the database as a resource. And 19 I use it.**  **20 The question really was one from 21 an enforcement and compliance point of view.**  **22 Does it make sense to place a requirement on**

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## 1 folks to provide a certificate from AHRI if **2 there's one available and what are the 3 downsides of that and positive sides of that**  **4 to the consumer or to the installer? 5 You know, what's our thoughts on**  **6 that? Should that be part of the framework at 7 all?**  **8 Knowing there's a resource out 9 there that we could take advantage of, should**  **10 we try to take advantage of it regulatory, or 11 should we just know it exists.**  **12 And while I guess use it as an 13 investigative tool, but no one feels any need**  **14 to have that kind of written into the rules. 15 MR. EISNER: Any response?**  **16 Harvey? 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I**  **18 guess the only question I can think of is 19 whether that database will assuredly remain**  **20 accessible to you and to the public. Do you 21 need some sort of a requirement of access to**  **22 that database?**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: So, from my point of **2 view I guess I know a piece of information 3 that exists within a trade association. So if**  **4 it became not available to me I could subpoena 5 or request that information if I needed it for**  **6 an investigation. So I don't see that as a 7 roadblock, though it would make this more**  **8 difficult. 9 But I think your point is fair**  **10 that you would like to hear from AHRI that 11 they're going to keep it open for business.**  **12 It sounds like to me that's what you're 13 asking.**  **14 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, I think 15 that's our whole business model but I'll let**  **16 Karim expand on that if you want to. 17 (Laughter)**  **18 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with 19 AHRI. The database has been available for a**  **20 very long time, maybe even before DOE, I don't 21 know.**  **22 And we intend to keep it there.**

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## 1 Obviously it has been useful to the industry, **2 useful to the manufacturers. 3 So while I cannot of course**  **4 guarantee anything, but our intent is to keep 5 it there and keep it available.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. If we 7 were to write some sort of regulatory**  **8 requirement that installers provide a 9 certificate from AHRI or an equivalent or none**  **10 available, or something like that. 11 We'd have to write sort of follow**  **12 up language probably that says if the database 13 becomes unavailable for some reason then**  **14 here's what we would do instead. That would 15 be the if-then I think from that.**  **16 MR. HURST: John Hurst with 17 Lennox. In the spirit of making things easy,**  **18 and this may sound like an easy concept. It's 19 real easy because I don't have to do the work.**  **20 But the CCMS database and the AHRI 21 database as a failsafe, could you not put a,**  **22 you know, you can sort by -- we were shown,**

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## 1 what, day before yesterday you can sort by a **2 whole bunch of different things. 3 Could you just go in and say what**  **4 state are you in? And then from that opening 5 page the dealer, the contractor, the installer**  **6 is directed towards the matches that are legal 7 in that state. Nothing else.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: That's a question for 9 AHRI I think really as far as their directory,**  **10 whether they could do that. Or also from the 11 CCMS point of view.**  **12 So, we haven't shown the CCMS 13 database at length up on the screen yet and I**  **14 do want to do that for you folks at some point 15 so you can see that there are some**  **16 differences. 17 The net positive about the DOE**  **18 database is that it incorporates everyone. 19 Even if you're not an AHRI participant, you're**  **20 there. 21 The net negative is the**  **22 searchability is a lot less and it doesn't**

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## 1 have a lot of bells and whistles the AHRI **2 directory has. So there's some things to 3 think about whether they can coexist or not.**  **4 And there's some Department drive 5 to obviously use our database because it's our**  **6 database and we think it's more inclusive but 7 it's not exclusive to members that pay a fee.**  **8 But I would have to ask the 9 question to those folks who built the database**  **10 whether there's some way to make it reasonably 11 useful to the regional participant to look at**  **12 what they could use. 13 And so I'll put that down as a**  **14 talking point for me to bring back to my 15 folks.**  **16 MR. ROCKY: Bryan Rocky from 17 Johnson Controls. So just looking at that,**  **18 Doug. The comment of having the data 19 available in the CCMS is different than your**  **20 comment a minute ago of is this requiring -- 21 does the enforcement require a certificate or**  **22 some document be provided to the consumer at**

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## 1 point of sale or installation of their **2 equipment. 3 And in coming around to the point**  **4 of I think that might be the only way we 5 actually have an answer to a lot of these**  **6 discussions. Is that something has to be 7 provided at the point of sale from the**  **8 installing contractor for traceability, 9 accountability and awareness. I don't know**  **10 what that document is, but I've been doodling 11 about what that might include.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: So, Bryan, this is 13 Doug. I know Karim is waiting to speak.**  **14 So, what you're envisioning then 15 is somehow making sure that the installer**  **16 provides the information that would either be 17 obtained from the AHRI database or from the**  **18 DOE database that would have the information 19 that the consumer needs to know that they have**  **20 a compliant product with the standards. 21 And you're shaking your head yes.**  **22 MR. ROCKY: Yes.**

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## 1 MR. EISNER: Karim? **2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Just 3 to add to the AHRI database issue. We can**  **4 certainly modify our database to make it 5 easier for the consumer to find out whether**  **6 its products are legal in where they live. 7 Something that we can certainly do.**  **8 But obviously any change to the 9 database is something that our members have to**  **10 agree to. So it's something we can definitely 11 take back to our members and decide whether we**  **12 should do it. 13 But it can be done.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: And Chuck, just real 15 quick, so Karim, I see it also useful not from**  **16 only the consumer point of view but from the 17 contractor's.**  **18 Because if they're going to be 19 forced to go on the database at some point it**  **20 would be easier for them to click the button 21 and get what they want. The simpler it would**  **22 be for them I think to execute and follow the**

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## 1 rules without being actually burdensome. **2 But I'd like to hear from Chuck 3 because he was definitely on this point.**  **4 MR. WHITE: Well, contractors are 5 going to be providing more paperwork**  **6 routinely, going to have to provide more 7 paperwork. So we need to know what's in that**  **8 packet and we'll work to put that packet 9 together to be in compliance.**  **10 And we know some of our partners 11 will help us with that. Wholesalers will make**  **12 sure, or attempt to try and get us that, 13 coordinate with us. I don't see that as an**  **14 insurmountable issue. 15 My question is this is fine for a**  **16 system. But if I change a condensing unit as 17 a component I'm not going to have a match**  **18 thing with it. Will I be able to pull 19 something from the AHRI database that will**  **20 satisfy if I'm working under this parallel 21 path?**  **22 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt**

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## 1 Lattanzi with NORDYNE. We already have a **2 requirement that a contractor has to provide 3 the energy guide label to the consumer. So I**  **4 think that meets Chuck's question. 5 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White**  **6 again. But if we're going to say that we have 7 to provide the AHRI document as well, if**  **8 that's what we're going to add, how do we do 9 that if we're not going to put a code with it?**  **10 If we're just going to solve a condensing unit 11 as a component.**  **12 MR. LATTANZI: I guess -- 13 MR. WHITE: I'm not deep into the**  **14 AHRI database so I don't -- just pick it as 15 the base model and call it good?**  **16 MR. AMRANE: The guidance that DOE 17 came up with yesterday or the day before says**  **18 that the condensing unit that you will be 19 installing will have to be matched with the**  **20 code to meet the regional standard or whatever 21 the standard that's applicable in the region.**  **22 So what you will have to do is to**

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## 1 search by the condensing model number and **2 database. And you will find all the listings 3 that the condensing unit can provide, you**  **4 know, whether it can provide the efficiency 5 levels that you are looking for.**  **6 Now, obviously that condensing 7 unit in the field would be met maybe with a**  **8 code that might not give you whatever the 9 levels that you're looking for, but that's a**  **10 different issue though. 11 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And so**  **12 I guess to address Chuck's point we can tailor 13 this as we draft it to fit the system versus**  **14 the install. 15 And the question is, is there a**  **16 necessity when installing a system to provide 17 that additional information? Or would the**  **18 energy guide label be sufficient? 19 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt.**  **20 That's the question I'm asking. I'm not sure 21 what value the certificate provides above the**  **22 energy guide label.**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: Assuming, based upon **2 what we heard yesterday, that the energy guide 3 label, if it shows it straddling the number**  **4 then they shouldn't be there in the first 5 place. But if it starts at 14 then we're**  **6 good. 7 And what the AHRI database says**  **8 about the combination is it cannot provide any 9 more information beyond what's on the label.**  **10 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. 11 That's correct. That's exactly what I'm**  **12 saying. Based on what was revealed yesterday 13 I'm struggling with the value above what's**  **14 already on the energy guide label. Correct? 15 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary from**  **16 the California IOUs. So, forgive my ignorance 17 here, but does the energy guide label have the**  **18 EER on it which is a requirement in 19 California?**  **20 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt with 21 NORDYNE. Yes, it does.**  **22 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, thank you.**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: Okay, so we have at **2 least Matt suggesting that we probably don't 3 need any more information given the guidance**  **4 as I explained yesterday and the label as it 5 exists now and as it hopefully will be changed**  **6 to meet the needs in the future. 7 Does anyone else think it would be**  **8 necessary, would it be helpful that we keep it 9 as a tool for DOE to use in the investigation,**  **10 but it's still not useful or necessary to 11 regulate that contractors provide it. And**  **12 actually it could be somewhat burdensome to 13 contractors to make them print it out on a**  **14 piece of paper and provide it to individuals. 15 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,**  **16 Johnstone Supply. It just seems kind of 17 redundant to me. It's giving them the same**  **18 information if we get to that 14 SEER label 19 agreement. I'm sure the energy advocates**  **20 would like to kill less trees. 21 MR. RAWALD: Well, and we've only**  **22 been talking to the folks in our**

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## 1 manufacturing. I haven't heard from **2 Elizabeth, Harvey, or Tim on this. So I think 3 I'd like to hear from them.**  **4 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I guess 5 I'm more interested in currently the energy**  **6 guide label as I think we're setting it up 7 will clearly show the unit at least meets 14**  **8 in the South. 9 And for your actual rating you**  **10 need to go to the productinfo.gov site. And 11 I guess that currently dumps you out at CCMS.**  **12 And I'm wondering if there's maybe 13 a better way to structure that interface with**  **14 the database for consumers when they actually 15 go.**  **16 Because, I mean I know consumers 17 do use the DOE database now, but I think this**  **18 is going to be directing a whole new -- 19 hopefully be directing a lot of new users to**  **20 that system. And is that database optimized 21 for the new users who are going to be coming**  **22 to it?**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: You asked the **2 question is it optimized when I think that you 3 probably know that it's possibly not because**  **4 of the overwhelming number of returns you will 5 get.**  **6 So the question that I will bring 7 back to the folks that I work with who pay for**  **8 these things and can make a decision on these 9 kind of things is whether we can somehow at**  **10 least tailor for the regional context our 11 database to be more approachable for**  **12 consumers. 13 Understand that this isn't going**  **14 to be for them to check compliance as much as 15 them to see the actual performance of what the**  **16 combination they have installed would be, 17 correct?**  **18 Because they know the compliance 19 of it based upon the energy guide label**  **20 ostensibly, right? Because the way we 21 resolved that issue seemed to be leaning**  **22 towards that.**

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## 1 MR. BALLO: Right. And obviously **2 if they get the paper from AHRI they can go to 3 the AHRI website which is I think a little**  **4 more user-friendly but again, not everyone is 5 going to get that.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Tim, my feelings 7 aren't hurt. It's okay. I looked at both**  **8 sides and I've explained. As I've said, there 9 are advantages to either for totally different**  **10 reasons. 11 MR. EISNER: So, anybody want to**  **12 make the argument that we should be requiring 13 something with respect to AHRI? And I assume**  **14 that would also include CCMS. So, no mandates 15 on these two.**  **16 Okay. It's 12 o'clock. Rather 17 than start a new issue maybe now is the time**  **18 to take a break, come back and talk about 19 collection of information.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: One o'clock? 21 MR. EISNER: Yes, come back at 1**  **22 o'clock.**

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## 1 (Whereupon, the above-entitled **2 matter went off the record at 12:01 p.m. and 3 resumed at 1:06 p.m.)**  **4 MR. EISNER: All right, our next 5 subject is collection of information,**  **6 suspected violations data. Let's start off 7 with whistleblower. Who would like to start**  **8 the conversation there? 9 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie**  **10 with ACCA and I'm happy to start off this one. 11 I think contractors would like the**  **12 opportunity to be part of the enforcement 13 here. If there was a 1-800 number I think**  **14 they would use it. 15 And I think a contractor is**  **16 sophisticated enough to recognize a piece of 17 equipment that's been illegally installed. It**  **18 may not have a label on it. I think they 19 could probably look at the faceplate and other**  **20 things. So, I think they'd be very good eyes 21 on the ground.**  **22 What we would sort of insist upon**

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## 1 or I think strongly suggest is either some **2 kind of a positive response which is something 3 back from the agency saying yes, we've**  **4 received this. 5 If it's more than just a**  **6 conversation -- or I mean if it's more than 7 just a recorded number where you leave**  **8 information. But something that they got 9 information back or some type of response,**  **10 positive response back from DOE. 11 And they would I think also -- I**  **12 think what I'd also like to know about more 13 too on this is resources that you would have**  **14 or what might happen afterwards so that we 15 could better understand what might happen when**  **16 they make a call. 17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is**  **18 Doug. Before John talks let me just jump in 19 so I can talk about it what we do now because**  **20 I think it will help inform the discussion. 21 So, we don't have a 1-800 number**  **22 currently for reporting violations. We have**

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## 1 an email address that is accessed through our **2 website but also available at a number of 3 places. And if people do email the**  **4 Department, people email the Secretary 5 sometimes with complaints, it trickles back**  **6 down to us and we say please submit to this 7 email box and then we'll deal with it.**  **8 So, we're universally on an email 9 complaint system. So I'll have to check in**  **10 about the dollars and cents of a 1-800 number. 11 And I'd also like to hear about**  **12 kind of from people's perspective on email 13 versus phone call versus both, and whether**  **14 they could work together, or one's better than 15 the other.**  **16 But what we do once we get a 17 complaint is then we follow up on it. If it's**  **18 not anonymous then we'll contact the person 19 making the complaint and we'll try to get as**  **20 much information as possible. 21 We'll explain to of course they**  **22 have confidentiality. They're not going to be**

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## 1 exposed. That we're going to keep the **2 information close hold. 3 And depending on what information**  **4 they offer we'll them embark upon the thing I 5 discussed yesterday, what our various tools**  **6 are. 7 So, either we'll buy a product, or**  **8 if someone provides me actual data. You know, 9 someone says here's the data I have from a**  **10 testing of this thing then I may have enough 11 information to then go to the company and have**  **12 them provide the units without DOE paying for 13 it at all. We may ask for data from the**  **14 company. 15 So, but we do follow up on every**  **16 single complaint which can be time-consuming 17 because we get a fair amount of them. And I'm**  **18 sure it sounds like we'll get more possibly in 19 this.**  **20 So, I think that we'll have to 21 just gauge how we handle based upon the**  **22 volume.**

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## 1 I'd imagine if we had a 1-800 **2 number it would be a voicemail. It would not 3 be active voice listening. So, someone would**  **4 have to then check the voicemail on a regular 5 basis and follow up on complaints.**  **6 And voicemails that are just a 7 random, hey, there's a non-compliant unit here**  **8 may be the hardest ones to follow up on as 9 opposed to the ones with more information.**  **10 One of the things that makes the 11 emails useful is that typically the emails**  **12 aren't anonymous. So typically most people 13 use a real email address.**  **14 Though we have some people who 15 make a Hotmail account just to subscribe to**  **16 us, email us and then they never get heard 17 from again. And that conversation with the**  **18 whistleblower makes it more fruitful. The 19 reporting itself is helpful, but having a**  **20 conversation and understanding what the basis 21 for the information is and getting some more**  **22 details that somebody wouldn't even think to**

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## 1 report makes the whistleblowing that much more **2 useful to us. 3 And so we would certainly want to**  **4 have a conversation with anyone that did make 5 a report and that would be the way we would**  **6 handle it from the first step, I think, 7 Charlie.**  **8 MR. HURST: John Hurst with 9 Lennox. Following up on what you said, Doug,**  **10 I think email or voicemail both are very 11 effective.**  **12 It could be even made more 13 effective if certain fields were required to**  **14 report a violation. 15 We spent a lot of time talking**  **16 about -- not a lot of time, but what the 17 program might look like.**  **18 I just want to highlight what I 19 believe to be the fact that if there is this**  **20 type of program in place I think the 21 willingness of a contractor that might think**  **22 about cheating goes way down.**

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## 1 And so even without looking at the **2 tenets of what a program would look like I 3 think if a contractor has a reasonable belief**  **4 that they'll get caught I think the desire to 5 cheat goes way down, way down.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Chuck or Charlie, can 7 you guys talk to that?**  **8 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 9 I think that's true. If there is enforcement**  **10 or we know there's an avenue for it. 11 When programs are created, we're**  **12 going to do this, it's got to be this way, and 13 then nothing ever happens and not -- and I**  **14 don't mean it in this particular case, but in 15 some cases where you don't really see there's**  **16 any benefit. 17 We just have some hoops to jump**  **18 through and there's no conceivable chance 19 anybody's going to follow up, contractors, if**  **20 it's burdensome, if you don't see the benefit 21 you're hardly going to follow.**  **22 I don't think that's the case**

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## 1 here. I think people are going to understand **2 the advantage of going to SEER 14 or the 3 benefit.**  **4 But knowing that there is a 5 possible easy avenue for someone to report**  **6 these activities and having it be confidential 7 is really, really important.**  **8 In Indiana we've gone through an 9 issue with reporting licensing issues. And in**  **10 their form you have to put down who you are 11 making a complaint which is public record. So**  **12 it gets back in your locality. 13 If you turned in a guy you know it**  **14 gets a little troublesome. So, the 15 confidentiality I think is really important,**  **16 that you don't have to worry that somebody is 17 going to come knocking on your door.**  **18 Or sometimes you may not know who 19 did it and you might inadvertently turn in**  **20 someone who might be a friend of yours or 21 somebody you know. And there's some benefit**  **22 to that, that if there's no name on it that**

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## 1 might be a downside to our contractor label. **2 We said earlier if I know I found 3 a 13 in Charlie and I know Charlie, we bowl**  **4 together, I don't want to turn Charlie in so 5 I let it slide.**  **6 But the confidentiality I think is 7 a really big great thing. Helpful.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug 9 again. What I mentioned was that oftentimes**  **10 the follow-up conversation is also very 11 useful.**  **12 What do you think the contractor's 13 palate would be for engaging in that as**  **14 opposed to simply having a phone call where 15 you leave a message and then knowing someone's**  **16 going to deal with it but they don't want to 17 be called back.**  **18 Do people want to be actively 19 engaged, or would they not want to be?**  **20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie 21 with ACCA. I think the reason I mentioned the**  **22 positive response is some of the frustrations**

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## 1 with the EPA 608 program where there's no **2 enforcement and people do call and then 3 nothing seems to happen.**  **4 And I understand what Chuck is 5 saying too about the confidentiality and maybe**  **6 you just want to throw it over the transom and 7 let someone else deal with it.**  **8 I'd have to think about that. I 9 don't know where our folks would split.**  **10 Between continuing engagement. 11 Somebody I think mentioned it may**  **12 have been during lunch that contractors tend 13 to be skittish about interaction with**  **14 government agencies. So, that may play into 15 it too.**  **16 I mean, I've got a couple of notes 17 that I'm going to reach out to some of my**  **18 folks and let me see where they fall out on 19 that.**  **20 And by saying that I'm not saying 21 we should take any of this off. I mean, all**  **22 this stuff should be in play I think.**

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## 1 MS. HARIHARAN: This is Johanna **2 Hariharan, Department of Energy. Just to 3 follow up on that. Would you think that**  **4 contractors would be more interested if there 5 was like a webpage with a form where you could**  **6 fill out certain areas, where you had to 7 verify that you're a real person and stuff?**  **8 And then you could say whether or 9 not you'd want to be contacted for a follow**  **10 up. And include all the information that 11 you'd want to. And then you would get a**  **12 tracking number once you'd submitted it, so 13 you could tell that you could actually find**  **14 out, you know, where your complaint went. 15 Would that be something that could**  **16 be more helpful? 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I**  **18 just want to jump in and say maybe it's great 19 minds running in the same gutter, but I think**  **20 that's beautiful. 21 What I've been thinking has this**  **22 dialogue has been going on is that it's gotten**

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## 1 to be a system that looks as broadly useful as **2 possible instead of something that's -- would 3 the contractor prefer X or Y.**  **4 Because I think there's going to 5 be a huge dispersion of building inspectors,**  **6 contractors, homeowners, all sorts of people. 7 And I think that's just -- that's a mental**  **8 model I really liked. 9 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with**  **10 Rheem. Wouldn't we be required to keep the 11 whistleblower information -- I mean are you**  **12 required to keep that confidential? 13 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the**  **14 question is will the Department have a legal 15 obligation to keep that confidential. And**  **16 there are whistleblower protection acts that 17 do cover that stuff. And so Johanna and Eric**  **18 and I will go back and look at the exact legal 19 parameters and how that goes.**  **20 What I would say is any program to 21 be effective we would want to guarantee**  **22 confidentiality anyway. It's just a question**

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## 1 of whether if somebody filed a FOIA request we **2 could claim that this act protects that. And 3 so I want to make sure that we could guarantee**  **4 that there's some sort of statutory protection 5 out there for that.**  **6 What I guess I'm wondering is, so 7 I could say to someone it's going to be as**  **8 confidential as they want, but they could 9 figure that their name's going to be in a**  **10 database somewhere so how confidential is it 11 really. There's always that kind of sense of**  **12 once my name is in someone else's hands I 13 don't really know that it's going to be kept**  **14 there forever. And so I guess there's always 15 that latent suspicion.**  **16 Do you think people are willing to 17 overcome that to report violations, or do you**  **18 think that might trump their desire to report 19 because they're really just afraid of ending**  **20 up with their name in a database? 21 MR. WHITE: I think I see problems**  **22 with this whole process from your perspective.**

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## 1 Anonymous phone calls are a little **2 harder to put stock into. You really would 3 like to know who. When somebody puts their**  **4 name to it that adds validity. 5 I like the idea that you on a web**  **6 form you could have an opt-out, don't contact 7 me.**  **8 Because it could be somebody 9 working for an organization. It could be an**  **10 installer working for their boss. You could 11 have all kinds of scenarios.**  **12 So, but you need to try and get as 13 much information as possible. It's not**  **14 helpful to have somebody call up, I'm in 15 Tallahassee, Florida and I saw a SEER 13 air**  **16 conditioner on the south side of town. You 17 need to do something about it. Click. That's**  **18 going to be impossible for you to deal with. 19 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is**  **20 Doug. And that's not unprecedented. I mean 21 we get those kind of emails, like I said.**  **22 So this will be arriving at the**

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## 1 docks in California next week. And that's it. **2 And that's very hard to deal with. 3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I think to answer**  **4 the question that was posed on the website, or 5 to sort of follow up on what Harvey was**  **6 saying. 7 If there's a menu of options I**  **8 think that that would be helpful. Whether it 9 be a call or a website.**  **10 I mean, certainly some would be 11 able to give more information, or be willing**  **12 to give more information, even their name. 13 I think your intuition about**  **14 people's being sensitive about submitting 15 their own name and then it ends up in a**  **16 database, and might that attract some type of 17 interest. You know, I think your intuition is**  **18 correct there. 19 But the potential here is great in**  **20 the sense that there's a lot of eyes in play 21 that could find, whether it be a building**  **22 inspector, a home inspector, contractor, the**

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## 1 second homeowner, you know, after home **2 ownership has changed hands who could play 3 into this.**  **4 MR. DORIA: Jordan Doria from 5 Ingersoll Rand. Just to add on that. I think**  **6 we need to keep in mind what we believe would 7 be the primary motivation for somebody doing**  **8 this in the first place. 9 And to be honest, at least in my** **10 opinion, it's not going to be their deep 11 seated desire to see compliance, or to see**  **12 greater energy efficiency by a 14 SEER product 13 being installed.**  **14 It's going to be because they 15 think they're being undercut and that they are**  **16 losing business. 17 So you might have concerns around**  **18 confidentiality. You might not want to 19 continue to be hassled with numerous calls.**  **20 But if you think you're losing business that 21 is a pretty significant motivator to continue**  **22 with the process to a point where you no**

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## 1 longer feel that's the case. **2 So if we agree that that's the 3 motivation I think that could for some trump**  **4 some of these other concerns. 5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: As I said -- this**  **6 is Charlie with ACCA -- a lot of contractors 7 do call EPA's hotline on refrigerant**  **8 mismanagement. 9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I**  **10 appreciate that. I think that's a very 11 helpful data point to at least know people are**  **12 using those resources. 13 So the question then becomes how**  **14 is the best method to put that information out 15 there. And do we want the folks that are**  **16 working with Karim on a possible label from 17 energy guide to include on that if installed**  **18 in this area call this number or email this 19 address.**  **20 Do we want to make that part of 21 the DOE public relations campaign? Do we in**  **22 Harvey Sachs's prohibition label on the**

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## 1 nameplate that says don't install here, or **2 Elizabeth, whoever wants to take ownership of 3 that that's working on Gary's design have that**  **4 number or that email? What's the most 5 effective manner in which making sure that**  **6 that information is out there for people to 7 avail themselves of that?**  **8 Because a flyer could go in the 9 trash. They may not find it again. We'll**  **10 post it on our website. But what's the most 11 effective way to make sure that those people**  **12 who want to call that number will really get 13 to it?**  **14 It seems like contractors and 15 installers will probably know it because it's**  **16 going to be within their offices. They're 17 going to have that space.**  **18 But if we're talking about other 19 folks also calling that number, how do we make**  **20 sure they have that number available? John? 21 MR. HURST: John Hurst to respond**  **22 to that. I would put it in the training and**

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## 1 let contractors know. Again, for it to be a **2 disincentive to actually -- you know, the best 3 violation is the one that never happens.**  **4 The other thing I was going to say 5 -- separate topic -- is the -- I just looked**  **6 at the SEC website. You Google 7 "whistleblower" and SEC pops up. They've got**  **8 a pretty robust form with the appropriate 9 information that you can fill in. So one of**  **10 those subgroups that looks at it might want to 11 check that out. I'm sure they've already run**  **12 the traps. 13 MR. RAWALD: Yes, so with SEC --**  **14 this is Doug -- they have also a lot of money 15 involved for whistleblowers. That seems like**  **16 -- I have to ask the policy folks, but it 17 seems like that will not be a player here. I**  **18 don't think there will be a cash incentive for 19 whistleblowing from the Department of Energy.**  **20 MR. HURST: Doug, I just meant the 21 form and how it's set up.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: I know.**

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## 1 MR. HURST: I'm not trying to say **2 a Wall Street whistleblower is anything close 3 to a dealer finding a 13 SEER unit in the**  **4 South. 5 MR. EISNER: Other comments?**  **6 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I have a 7 question I guess for Doug. Related to the**  **8 idea of a website where you'd maybe get a 9 tracking number and you'd be able to follow up**  **10 with the Department. 11 If I'm someone who's really**  **12 motivated about this and I want to find out 13 whether the Department is following up how**  **14 much information can you provide to that 15 person who wants to make sure that this is**  **16 going to be -- I'd imagine you can say it's an 17 active investigation or it's been closed. But**  **18 how much are you going to be able to 19 communicate with that person?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: So, Tim, you are 100 21 percent correct. And Johanna and I haven't**  **22 spoken about the tracking number that she**

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## 1 volunteered. But I think that probably would **2 not go very far because we wouldn't have much 3 information to provide on a routine basis.**  **4 And people do follow up because 5 people do, especially competitors. They're**  **6 the ones who are most aggressive and want to 7 know that their competitors are being brought**  **8 to task. 9 They often email and say what's**  **10 going on with my investigation. Really all we 11 can is be patient. We'll let you know when**  **12 it's closed. 13 And then when it's closed I send**  **14 them the link to the public announcement of 15 what we did. And that's pretty much all we**  **16 can give out. 17 Because you start going into sorts**  **18 of issues like discovery, whether you're 19 giving out privileged documents, FOIA, all**  **20 these things we start transgressing if we 21 start dealing out that stuff to a**  **22 whistleblower.**

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## 1 And so the practice is to simply **2 appropriately tell them the investigation is 3 ongoing and we'll report to you the findings**  **4 of the investigation when it's complete. 5 I don't think that there will be**  **6 much ability for them to actually track the 7 progress of their investigation.**  **8 MS. HARIHARAN: Right. And this 9 is Johanna. I said that based on the fact**  **10 that people were wondering if it was actually 11 seen by the Department. So it would just be**  **12 a simple yes, we've seen it, or no, it's 13 closed.**  **14 MR. EISNER: Other comments? How 15 about what should be required? Should this**  **16 all be voluntary? Except a requirement that 17 DOE set it up. But the question has been**  **18 asked whether there should be any requirements 19 imposed upon the industry.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: So, and I guess we're 21 getting -- this is Doug. If an industry**  **22 member overlooks a violation is there some**

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## 1 sort of hey, you have an obligation to report **2 a violation if you see a violation. 3 MR. EISNER: Well, someone else**  **4 raised the question but I think that's the 5 kind of thing that we look for.**  **6 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan Doria 7 with Ingersoll Rand. I'm of the opinion that**  **8 at least from my company's perspective that if 9 we had extremely strong evidence, however we**  **10 came across it, of a highly likely violation. 11 I want to use that term because**  **12 again I don't believe that we can be the 13 arbiters of whether one has, in fact,**  **14 occurred. 15 I actually think I'm of the**  **16 opinion that we would probably have an 17 obligation to do something with that.**  **18 I don't know how we can go from 19 saying there's an obligation to some kind of**  **20 requirement. Because then if there's a 21 requirement there's the necessary next**  **22 question of who's making sure that you're**

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## 1 meeting that requirement. **2 So that means all emails that come 3 into Ingersoll Rand people from the field. I**  **4 mean it could get pretty unworkable. So, I'm 5 only just saying that it's our view that there**  **6 is an obligation and I'm open to ways that we 7 could find a way to incorporate that more than**  **8 just can and should. Something a little 9 beyond that.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I 11 don't want the enforcement office to spend**  **12 their time enforcing the reporting of 13 violations as opposed to enforcing the**  **14 violations. So we need to be careful about 15 what we wish for with this.**  **16 So, and Jordan used some really I 17 think appropriately caveat terms. Extremely**  **18 likely. 19 So, how does a person really**  **20 assess is it a violation or not? So how do we 21 know someone overlooked something? Like where**  **22 do you judge that? So those are very**

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## 1 subjective terms that could be very difficult **2 to follow up on and time-consuming on our 3 part.**  **4 I do like the idea that people 5 have the opportunity to report. I'm just**  **6 uncertain that it's workable for us to require 7 reporting or to ask for a sanction for a**  **8 failure to report which would seem to be 9 necessary if we're going to have a requirement**  **10 to report. 11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. It's**  **12 hard for me to think like a manufacturer since 13 I've never been one. But I want to try in one**  **14 aspect. 15 And that is we have this**  **16 knowingly, this responsibility, I know about 17 repeated violations, then I'm liable.**  **18 And the only way I can see that I 19 can avoid being liable for reporting a**  **20 suspected one when I have that responsibility 21 is to be held harmless for reporting the first**  **22 incident, or the first two incidents, or**

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## 1 whatever it is. **2 Hey, we have this suspicion that 3 we're getting a bunch of illegals in**  **4 Tuscaloosa. 5 If that's going to mark the point**  **6 at which I'm knowingly violating I certainly 7 don't want to start that trail. So I think I**  **8 have to be held harmless for reporting that 9 suspicion.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: So Harvey, this is 11 Doug. I guess what I'm hearing you say is**  **12 there is some disincentive to report possibly 13 from a manufacturer point of view if you think**  **14 that you'll then be under scrutiny for future 15 transactions because now you've no -- because**  **16 you've reported it. 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm**  **18 respectfully and humbly offering that 19 hypothesis.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: No, I think that's a 21 very logical thought.**  **22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?**

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## 1 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan again. **2 I guess I would say I think my view here is 3 it's going to be hard to get to a decision on**  **4 this particular point absent more clarity on 5 what constitutes a violation, what constitutes**  **6 routine violation. That's just my opinion. 7 And who makes those decisions?**  **8 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So 9 this is really centered around manufacturer**  **10 reporting though. Because it doesn't really 11 affect anyone else.**  **12 Because the manufacturers have a 13 stake in this because they have a penalty**  **14 they're possibly facing for dealing with 15 someone they know to be a bad actor. So that**  **16 might a disincentive for them of 17 whistleblowing.**  **18 But it doesn't affect the 19 whistleblowing mechanism as designed for**  **20 anyone else that's not a manufacturer. Right? 21 That's really what this relates to.**  **22 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I**

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## 1 actually think the effectiveness of the **2 whistleblowing does hinge on the consequences 3 associated with it. Right? I mean, I think**  **4 if there's no teeth to it then what is the 5 incentive or disincentive to use this**  **6 mechanism? 7 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug.**  **8 I'm not saying there's no teeth and we'll get 9 to consequences.**  **10 What I'm hearing is there's a 11 concern that manufacturers may choose not to**  **12 whistleblow if they know they're dealing with 13 a bad actor because they don't want to have**  **14 future transaction with that person be deemed 15 under the umbrella of bad acting which we know**  **16 will cost them money. 17 But anyone else we'll still have**  **18 the reason to whistleblow because we'll take 19 an action against them and then we can discuss**  **20 consequences later, what the consequences will 21 be against the person that violates it.**  **22 But there's a kind of a conflict**

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## 1 of interest for a manufacturer in a **2 whistleblowing realm, at least one that's out 3 there as a possibility as Harvey has**  **4 articulated it. 5 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt.**  **6 As long as the consequence is against the 7 violator and not the manufacturer I don't**  **8 think we'll have a disincentive. 9 MR. RAWALD: Matt, this is Doug.**  **10 So I think what Harvey's pointing to is the 11 one prohibited act that we know we have is one**  **12 that charges money to manufacturers for 13 knowing sales to someone they know to be a**  **14 routine violator. 15 So if you report contractor A as**  **16 being a knowing violator and then you decide 17 to keep dealing with him for whatever reason**  **18 then suddenly are you going to be more likely 19 to be in trouble because you've now reported**  **20 that person? So is there a disincentive to you 21 -- because you like dealing with contractor X**  **22 even though he's a rules violator. So you**

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## 1 don't want to stop doing that. That's the **2 hypothesis I see Harvey discussing going on. 3 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. And**  **4 this goes to -- I actually brought this up 5 yesterday when I asked you the question does**  **6 this group have the authority and the ability 7 to expand the prohibited acts. That's exactly**  **8 where I was going. 9 So given that, if additional**  **10 prohibited acts are added and it is -- and 11 that prohibited act is with respect to the**  **12 violator I think the disincentive goes away. 13 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy**  **14 Shepherd with AHRI. I also think that there's 15 sort of a lookback concern though too.**  **16 So if you're a manufacturer and 17 you report someone you may have in the back of**  **18 your mind, well, if I report this person, DOE 19 investigates and then it turns out that I have**  **20 had sales in the past to this person which I 21 didn't know this about. But DOE is somehow**  **22 going to now try and build this case against**

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## 1 me. **2 So I think that's the other 3 concern that may be there that we have to**  **4 think about. 5 MR. EISNER: Wouldn't DOE prefer**  **6 to get the information than to not get it and 7 therefore be willing to provide a hold**  **8 harmless if you report the information? 9 MR. RAWALD: I'm not going to say**  **10 that because I can envision a different 11 scenario where a manufacturer knows somebody**  **12 is a bad actor, but suddenly they see that oh, 13 this guy's going to get caught, he's really**  **14 just getting too close to the line now. I'm 15 going to turn him in because I don't want to**  **16 be caught for doing all the stuff that I've 17 been doing with him. I know if I turn him in**  **18 I'm going to be held harmless for what I was 19 doing.**  **20 And so while I'm sure most folks 21 in this room would be skeptical of that**  **22 happening, the people I report to do envision**

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## 1 those kind of bad scenarios. **2 And so they're going to say what 3 about that. I don't want to give the**  **4 manufacturer a free pass just because they 5 dimed somebody out when they knew it was close**  **6 to the time he was going to stop. 7 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.**  **8 If, as Elizabeth said, if the routine violator 9 is a DOE decision, you decide someone's a**  **10 routine violator, up until the time you issue 11 that decision people don't know he's a routine**  **12 violator. 13 I can envision no manufacturer, no**  **14 individual wants to make a judgment against 15 someone in a slanderous or libelous fashion**  **16 and have that come back to them. 17 So until -- so part of the**  **18 definition or the ground rules we have to get 19 established, is the routine violator, does**  **20 that label have to come from DOE before any of 21 this can happen.**  **22 If that's what happens then**

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## 1 everybody is in the clear up until that label. **2 After that label you've got a problem. 3 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so I**  **4 think I posed this question in sort of a 5 different light on Tuesday which is we**  **6 determine company X is a routine violator, but 7 we know that manufacturer Y has been dealing**  **8 with them for a number of times and actually 9 probably knew about the fact they were**  **10 routinely violating. 11 So, but we haven't made a**  **12 determination. So are they in the clear 13 because we didn't make that determination? Or**  **14 would the manufacturer actually be responsible 15 because they were dealing with the guy who**  **16 we've now found to be a routine violator? 17 So in other words, is a routine** **18 violation finding only good for forward 19 looking transactions with an individual? Or**  **20 does it encompass backward-looking ones, 21 especially if there were many, or fulsome. So**  **22 I think it's a thorny issue to really**

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## 1 navigate. **2 I could say probably we'd want to 3 have the authority to go backward because of**  **4 the fact that somebody who had a lot of -- 5 somebody who knew they were up to no good but**  **6 they didn't have a DOE finding against them 7 was like well, I can keep dealing with them**  **8 until the DOE finds out. 9 I don't want to encourage that**  **10 kind of behavior. And so that's just the Doug 11 Rawald's kind of playing this out in my mind**  **12 thought on it. 13 But I would have to take that back**  **14 to the folks I work with. But that's the 15 concern there, right? That until we put a**  **16 flag in the sand it's okay to play with 17 someone who's dirty. And that's not the**  **18 behavior we want to encourage I think as a 19 group.**  **20 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with 21 Ingersoll Rand. I certainly recognize that.**  **22 I think the challenge from my**

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## 1 perspective is that -- by allowing it to **2 essentially be the OEM's gut effectively on 3 who may or may not be a routine violator, that**  **4 introduces a huge amount of subjectivity into 5 the process.**  **6 It also is then purely about that 7 particular manufacturer. Because we're now**  **8 not talking about something that has been 9 decided by DOE and is therefore public**  **10 knowledge. 11 So if you were to play that out**  **12 that means that potentially we as Ingersoll 13 Rand want to -- we set up our own internal**  **14 criteria which could well be different from 15 the other manufacturers.**  **16 Let's say we decided it was going 17 to be very, very strict. So then we tell a**  **18 particular distributor for the sake of 19 discussion that we are of the opinion that**  **20 they are likely to be for whatever reason a 21 routine violator.**  **22 But this is not public so they**

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## 1 simply go to someone else and get product from **2 them. Because they're not privy, that other 3 OEM would not be privy to the same**  **4 information. 5 While I understand your concern I**  **6 think it actually is almost a disincentive for 7 people to do that because it would just be a**  **8 competitive harm in the market at that point. 9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I**  **10 think this is one of the more complicated 11 parts of this whole process which is why I**  **12 teed it up on Tuesday. I think it's a lot 13 more complicated than anyone would think**  **14 reading the rule just coming in here. 15 And I think it really merits a lot**  **16 of thought. 17 I know we're kind of -- we were**  **18 making a lot of progress and now we've kind of 19 gone off course a little on this topic that I**  **20 think is very interesting and really important 21 to me.**  **22 I just don't want to absorb**

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## 1 everyone's energy with that topic as we end **2 today. 3 Maybe we could say yes, we have a**  **4 lot to talk about here and let's do a little 5 more thinking about it and come back next week**  **6 and talk about it some more. And go back down 7 to the list.**  **8 Because I think we've kind of 9 veered from whistleblowing to this very**  **10 important topic. 11 MR. PORTER: Doug, this is Steve**  **12 Porter, Johnstone Supply. I really think it 13 would be extremely difficult for a**  **14 manufacturer or distributor to be certain on 15 any of these issues until that equipment is**  **16 fully installed. 17 It would be highly, highly more**  **18 likely that it's going to be a contractor that 19 comes across it than anybody else that would**  **20 be qualified to even submit a whistleblowing 21 act.**  **22 I mean, I just don't see getting**

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## 1 involved. Once they're out the door and it's **2 out the door, you know, that's -- the only 3 person that may come across it is an**  **4 inspector, a homeowner that maybe has a 5 concern about it, or a contractor.**  **6 I don't think there's great risk 7 on the manufacturer that they should be even**  **8 held accountable for any of that going 9 backwards on it. It just doesn't make any**  **10 sense to me. Or that they would have the 11 motivation to even act in that fashion. I**  **12 just don't see it. 13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with**  **14 Earthjustice. I'm just thinking back to the 15 definition of "knowingly" in the statute.**  **16 I think it's helpful to look back 17 at that here because it's "the presumed having**  **18 of knowledge deemed to be possessed by a 19 reasonable man who acts in the circumstances."**  **20 And I think reasonability has to 21 be judged in light of the manufacturer, the**  **22 industry's practices.**

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## 1 So, I'm hearing generally that **2 manufacturers don't have a lot of information 3 about what happens to the product after it**  **4 leaves their warehouse. And that seems to be 5 what's reasonable for the industry.**  **6 So it seems like it would be a 7 pretty exceptional case where the manufacturer**  **8 really should have known that this product was 9 being misapplied further downstream.**  **10 That said, I don't want to 11 foreclose the possibility that that may**  **12 happen. But I do think it's worth emphasizing 13 that it seems like a pretty unusual set of**  **14 circumstances for it to occur. 15 MR. EISNER: Others?**  **16 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt. 17 You introduced some very interesting points**  **18 that really hadn't occurred to me until just 19 now.**  **20 And I say this sort of half in 21 jest, but I almost feel like I need to bring**  **22 our corporate attorney back with me next week.**

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## 1 And certainly I have no plans to **2 do that. I feel there's enough attorneys in 3 the room.**  **4 (Laughter) 5 MR. LATTANZI: No disrespect to**  **6 attorneys. I think you guys are doing a great 7 job.**  **8 At the same time you do have me 9 thinking about some things that really hadn't**  **10 occurred to me. And as we move forward I can 11 see points in time when I likely would want to**  **12 consult with our attorneys at NORDYNE. 13 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And I**  **14 want to make sure everyone understands that if 15 you have to break to talk with someone at your**  **16 company or you're representing, whoever you're 17 with, that's acceptable.**  **18 I mean, there are times when I 19 have to check in with my DOE folks because I**  **20 speak what I know, but there's a lot of things 21 I don't know as you guys have noticed. So,**  **22 that's just the way it goes. That's okay.**

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## 1 And that's why I think -- I really **2 want to table the discussion on the routine 3 violator thing until folks can really sit back**  **4 and talk with the folks they work with about 5 all the things that I brought up here to**  **6 really get on it. 7 I think maybe turning to the next**  **8 thing on this list which if we can skip the 9 tariff label would be the record of retention.**  **10 I think that maybe would be a little more 11 productive in the limited time we've got left**  **12 today. If folks would be amenable to that. 13 Is everyone okay with that? There**  **14 seems to be general agreement around the room 15 there, Neil.**  **16 MR. EISNER: Good. Let's go to 17 records retention for a specified time in a**  **18 specified manner. Anybody want to start it 19 off?**  **20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie 21 with ACCA. I think we all know where people**  **22 feel about record retention in general. It's**

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## 1 a practice or a potential practice. **2 And instead of just creating the 3 situation where we end up talking about that**  **4 I think it might be helpful if, Doug, you 5 could help us understand just the mechanics of**  **6 a record retention program. 7 In other words, potential cost,**  **8 time-line, implementation, things like that. 9 And I say that because if this is**  **10 something that makes sense but it's just not 11 practical we may not be well served by**  **12 discussing this over and over again. 13 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug.**  **14 I've given this a lot of thought. And I 15 especially liked what we heard yesterday from**  **16 Gary Clark from Goodman about looking to the 17 precedent of what the IRS at least requires**  **18 folks to keep. Because maybe that could be a 19 good place to start.**  **20 So I'm going to look at that 21 before our next meeting to come back with**  **22 folks and say, okay, here's what you have to**

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## 1 have anyway. So, with that in mind we can **2 just see if there's anything additional 3 necessary.**  **4 But from my sense, what I would 5 need to investigate from an installer point of**  **6 view would be the place installed and the 7 thing installed and when it was installed.**  **8 Those would be the three points of 9 order because when it's installed is important**  **10 though ostensibly it won't be after too long. 11 What was installed is important. And where it**  **12 was installed is important. 13 So, I don't need an address so**  **14 much as I need a state, right? I need to know 15 what state it's installed in. So that's how**  **16 I determine whether it's improperly installed. 17 I need to know what was installed**  **18 so I can decide whether or not it was 19 compliant. And I need to know the time-line**  **20 because we have a time-line that matters. 21 So, the serial number is something**  **22 that people have mentioned and that's really**

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## 1 only important in trying to determine if it **2 was manufactured on a certain date to my 3 opinion. So, that's less important as we get**  **4 forward into this time-line. 5 The question is that in the short**  **6 term when we have the sell-through that date 7 of manufacturer is important because if it's**  **8 manufactured on December 29 versus January 2 9 and installed on January 25 makes a**  **10 difference. So, if not the serial number, the 11 date of manufacture.**  **12 But there would have to be some 13 sort of way to verify that which the serial**  **14 number is really the most explicit way to do 15 that from my point of view. So that's the way**  **16 I see it from an installer point of view. 17 From a distributor, it's more of a**  **18 we sold the thing to who and it went where to 19 their knowledge. Like where was it sold. So**  **20 they obviously don't know where it ended up, 21 but if they delivered it someplace, that added**  **22 piece of information would be of value to the**

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## 1 Department. **2 So those are the things that I 3 would see as being most important from that**  **4 point of view. 5 And then from the manufacturer**  **6 point of view I feel like I already get enough 7 information from them so I probably don't need**  **8 anything. And the regional standards from 9 that so it doesn't need to be made explicit.**  **10 So, from the manufacturers maybe 11 we'd be asking them what they shipped where.**  **12 Can you tell us where you shipped all your 13 13 SEER whatevers, but much more narrowly.**  **14 Just to be clear, information 15 requests that are broad are not productive,**  **16 right? So when I ask for things I want them 17 to be targeted.**  **18 So retaining of records, however, 19 needs to be broad enough to answer the**  **20 question. So the retaining is probably more 21 burdensome than the production that I would**  **22 ask for.**

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## 1 But the production requests I have **2 at least helps you understand what I want 3 retained.**  **4 And you asked how long. I don't 5 see us pursuing -- I think the statute of**  **6 limitations may bar us from going beyond 5 7 years. So I think a 5-year would be a maximum**  **8 threshold. That's just me spitballing with 9 you with what I think would be acceptable with**  **10 the Department. 11 But we can talk about a shorter**  **12 time frame if that's more acceptable, 13 especially if that's consistent with the IRS**  **14 which I think is a good, as I mentioned 15 before, a good starting point. So I'm going**  **16 to go back and look at that. But that's kind 17 of my sense.**  **18 Certainly longer than a year. I 19 think that would be too short. But that's**  **20 kind of how I'm looking at things. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: So Doug, this is**  **22 Gary. I think it's important when we talk**

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## 1 about retention of records to understand what **2 type of records we're going to be having. And 3 you addressed that a little bit.**  **4 I'd like to focus on your comment 5 with regard to installing contractors.**  **6 So, let's say I'm an HVAC 7 contractor in Yreka, California which is close** **8 to the Oregon border. And I buy a non 9 compliant piece of equipment. And I send you**  **10 a little note and I say I installed it in 11 Oregon. Maybe more specifically Medford,**  **12 Oregon. 13 How are you going to know whether**  **14 what I said is true or not? You have -- 15 there's no way in any case to audit or**  **16 validate that information lacking the 17 installation address.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: No, I think, Gary, 19 you're right in that I wouldn't be able just**  **20 to say okay, well, they say California so 21 they're good in California.**  **22 So, what folks need to understand**

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## 1 is the more information that I'm able to get **2 the more I'm able to tell things which helps 3 me even the playing field more. So I think**  **4 that Gary's point is well taken. 5 So I agree that assuming that the**  **6 non-compliant guy is not going to tell me, oh 7 yes, I installed that in California when he**  **8 knows that it shouldn't have been sold in 9 California. And he tells me installed it in**  **10 Oregon. How do I make sure that that's 11 appropriate? So, that's a correct point.**  **12 MR. WHITE: So this is Chuck 13 White. Clarification for me. When you talk**  **14 records retention I think of that as I have 15 them in my office and if you call me up and**  **16 say I was at Mrs. Smith's house and I found a 17 unit. Did you install it? I can produce**  **18 records that say yes, I did, and here's what 19 I put in according to my records.**  **20 Not I'm going to send them to you 21 wholesale so you have a large warehouse full**  **22 of records from everyone across the southern**

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## 1 region. **2 And if you come to me and say 3 there's a house in Yreka, California, I can't**  **4 very well tell you no, no, that house in 5 Oregon. If you know the location where it is**  **6 then you come to me and say did you do the job 7 and I say yes or no.**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Chuck, this is 9 Gary. I think you raised an excellent point.**  **10 Another dimension of this is not 11 only the type of record and the length of**  **12 retention, but the location of where the 13 record is kept.**  **14 And it might need to be reported 15 to some central database. It might need to be**  **16 available locally. 17 But based on what I heard**  **18 yesterday from the distributors and the 19 contractor folks about the wide variation in**  **20 the way records are either kept or not kept. 21 I don't know that we would have a**  **22 lot of confidence in being able to find those**

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## 1 records if we were to count on them being **2 available locally if requested. 3 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.**  **4 As a clarification, I'm not offering to send 5 my records to a central database location. My**  **6 records are my records. They're confidential. 7 If you come to me and ask a**  **8 related question in an investigation I'm more 9 than happy to cooperate and produce whatever**  **10 records I have. 11 And further to be clear, the**  **12 system in the business that I own, I can 13 search by customer. I can't search by**  **14 individual parts. So I have Mrs. Smith and 15 Mr. Jones. And if you come to me and say did**  **16 you sell this unit with a serial number I -- 17 maybe.**  **18 But if you tell me it's at Mr. 19 Smith's house, I can look at Mr. Smith's job**  **20 and tell you, yes, I worked for Mr. Smith and 21 by my records this is what I put in.**  **22 And it may have been that unit you**

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## 1 reference, may have been a different unit. **2 Whether somebody came after me and changed it 3 again I can't tell you.**  **4 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary 5 again. Not wanting to speak for Doug, but I**  **6 would assume that Doug's obligation is to be 7 able to know where a particular product went.**  **8 That is, whether it went into a 9 compliant or non-compliant area. And Mr.**  **10 Jones doesn't help us in that regard because 11 you installed a unit there for sure and you**  **12 can tell us about it, but we don't know 13 whether that compliant or non-compliant unit**  **14 that left trains, factory wound up in 15 California or Oregon.**  **16 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth from 17 NRDC.**  **18 When I think about record 19 retention I think about it more from a**  **20 perspective of assessing compliance at some 21 level. And not an obligation to send data to**  **22 the Department of Energy, but upon request**

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## 1 that you would be able to provide the **2 installations that you have done, or from a 3 distributor the shipments that you have --**  **4 transactions that you've had over a course of 5 the last quarter, the last year, or at some**  **6 level. 7 And absent the ability to provide**  **8 those records is, in fact, a violation. Or 9 some level of -- otherwise I don't think it's**  **10 effective for Doug to go to a truck and say I 11 need to know where this serial number was**  **12 installed because I would assume that he 13 actually knew where -- knew the serial number.**  **14 But I think in terms of you 15 retaining your records in the event that you**  **16 needed to supply the Department of Energy with 17 information on your practices over the course**  **18 of a year, I think that is a minimum level of 19 requirement to be able to assess compliance**  **20 for this rule. 21 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug.**  **22 So, Chuck, in response to your question. By**

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## 1 record retention I certainly mean records that **2 are retained, not produced. So I don't want 3 your business records either in toto.**  **4 What we do have that may, once 5 again, provide some illumination and maybe**  **6 provide at least some thought on a path 7 forward that could be a different idea and**  **8 that we haven't had yet. 9 So, manufacturers certify the**  **10 compliance of individual basic models with the 11 standard that applies. What they do when they**  **12 do that is they fill out a spreadsheet and it 13 says the model number and a couple of other**  **14 pieces of information and then it lists the 15 performance of that model.**  **16 And every year they submit that 17 spreadsheet to me saying I swear that this is**  **18 what I'm building and this is true and 19 correct.**  **20 And then occasionally I will look 21 at that spreadsheet and I will say oh,**  **22 something about this looks amiss, or there's**

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## 1 some reason for me to follow up on it. **2 I'm going to ask about model X, Y 3 and Z. So then I will ask manufacturer Acme**  **4 to provide me the information, test data 5 regarding model X, Y and Z and they'll produce**  **6 such data. So they're required to retain the 7 records of that model's testing and produce**  **8 them upon request. 9 So, they're not giving it to me**  **10 unasked, but when asked upon they have to 11 easily be able to get that information and**  **12 provide it to me. 13 If they can't, then I have the**  **14 ability to charge money for their failure to 15 comply with the request as Elizabeth noted.**  **16 So that's the teeth of the failure to comply. 17 So there's both the requirement**  **18 that you keep your records, and if you're 19 unable to produce them when asked then you're**  **20 going to have to start paying some money for 21 not being able to produce those records.**  **22 So there may be some sort of need**

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## 1 if we're going to have a record retention **2 requirement to have that. 3 What also may be worth considering**  **4 is some sort of annual reporting of number of 5 installs in a region or something like that.**  **6 I wouldn't even begin to -- I haven't really 7 thought it through. But that would be akin to**  **8 what's being reported now. 9 That would be the kind of thing**  **10 that at most we'd want reported to us on a 11 regularized basis as opposed to every sale and**  **12 transaction and what you're doing. That seems 13 like an overwhelming amount of information and**  **14 a little bit intrusive for my liking for me to 15 recommend to the Department to do that.**  **16 So, I want to think this over some 17 more. But from a record retention point of**  **18 view what I want, I want you to have the 19 records to be able to do that.**  **20 What I really also want to do is I 21 don't want to create an incentive for people**  **22 to say if I keep bad records I escape**

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## 1 scrutiny. Because that's the problem, right? **2 So I don't want to encourage contractors to 3 keep bad records because they'll never get**  **4 caught then. So I might as well just make a 5 sloppy book of this because then nothing will**  **6 ever happen. 7 So we have to think about how to**  **8 not do that without creating a burden on the 9 good guy to have some nice extra paperwork and**  **10 he's up now till 2 o'clock in the morning as 11 opposed to midnight doing paperwork every**  **12 night as I understand from the scenarios you 13 guys have described to me.**  **14 So, I'm looking to you for kind of 15 a solution as far as what is ordinarily kept,**  **16 what could be kept and what would be an 17 incentive to keep them correctly so that we**  **18 can produce them when asked upon and yet still 19 when those who don't produce them face some**  **20 sort of consequences for failing to produce 21 them in some way.**  **22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary**

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## 1 again. So, the part I'm struggling with is **2 how you can check, given an audit situation 3 and local record retention up and down the**  **4 market chain to make sure that we've got a 5 complete picture.**  **6 So, let's say I'm the contractor 7 in Crescent City. You tell me that I'm going**  **8 to be audited so I produce my records and I 9 say that I purchased 20 compliant units and**  **10 here's where I installed them around 11 California. And I purchased two non-compliant**  **12 units and put them in Oregon. Everything's 13 fine.**  **14 Well, how do you know that maybe I 15 didn't purchase more than 22 units. I**  **16 purchased a non-compliant unit for which I 17 don't have a record because I threw it away.**  **18 And I installed it in California. 19 So, you need somehow to be able to**  **20 tie what the contractor says to what 21 distributors say this contractor purchased in**  **22 order to close the loop, to get a complete**

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## 1 picture. **2 MR. RAWALD: No, Gary, you're 100 3 percent correct. And so, once again, talking**  **4 about what we do currently. 5 So manufacturers, if they are non**  **6 compliant we tell the manufacturers hey, you 7 have to tell us how many of these things you**  **8 manufactured and sold and who you sold them 9 to.**  **10 And then we'll often go to the 11 people they sold them to and say tell us how**  **12 many you bought. And we'll put the two lists 13 together and say okay, they look the same or**  **14 they look different. 15 And if they look different then I**  **16 have a concern. Somebody is wrong and so then 17 I follow up on that. So I would want to do**  **18 that. 19 The question that's more thorny**  **20 with the contractor is how do I know what 21 distributor he's buying from, or does he leave**  **22 off the list the one guy that he buys all his**

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## 1 non-compliant products so I don't even know **2 that that guy's out there as someone to 3 suspect to ask information from in the first**  **4 place. 5 That's a more difficult question**  **6 for me to ferret out as an investigator. To 7 figure out how do I find the person they're**  **8 not reporting to me as the salesperson of the 9 things that are bad that he's not reporting to**  **10 me about either. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary**  **12 again. I totally agree. We've got to find 13 the least burdensome way to be able to answer**  **14 all those questions and know with confidence 15 that we can determine compliance in the field.**  **16 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter, 17 Johnstone Supply. Since I was thrown under**  **18 the bus earlier I will return the favor. 19 (Laughter)**  **20 MR. PORTER: And I know they're 21 not going to like this, so.**  **22 Warranties are turned in by the**

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## 1 homeowner. It's already done, it's already **2 processed. In aggregate, not giving out any 3 homeowner confidential information is**  **4 manufacturing honoring any warranties on that 5 equipment in states that don't qualify?**  **6 That gives you a pointer. That 7 gives you data that already exists. That**  **8 gives you a large, large sample size to see if 9 anybody is in compliance. Or out of**  **10 compliance I should say. Without anybody else 11 having to do anything different in the chain.**  **12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary, 13 Steve. That sounds like a really great idea**  **14 except for two things maybe. 15 One, it would be great if more**  **16 people sent in warranty information so that 17 there's a relatively complete list.**  **18 And secondly, I would imagine that 19 the majority, the vast majority of this**  **20 equipment never needs any action under 21 warranty because it works just fine.**  **22 MR. PORTER: You can come do my**

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## 1 warranty for me then, Gary. **2 That's not true. It's not like an 3 appliance at all. If it was we wouldn't sell**  **4 any parts. 5 The simple fact is that a sample**  **6 size if I remember correctly, and I'm sure it 7 varies by manufacturer, but I would say I**  **8 believe I heard the number was 10 percent. 9 You know, Nielsen does 400 TV**  **10 viewers to get the ratings right. You do not 11 need every unit installed, address, name. You**  **12 need a sample to point in the right direction. 13 Even if 10 percent of the**  **14 homeowners applied for their warranty that's 15 a large number.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, this is Gary 17 again. That's the best idea I've heard yet.**  **18 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 19 Steve, I like that idea. I think that the**  **20 ability to leverage warranty information could 21 potentially be fruitful.**  **22 The only question that I have on**

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## 1 what you've just proposed, are we penalizing **2 the homeowner at all by then their product 3 being out of warranty for a contractor's mis**  **4 installation? Did I misunderstand? 5 MR. PORTER: I think you**  **6 misunderstood. 7 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon from**  **8 HARDI. I think I heard yesterday that the 9 manufacturers would still honor a warranty if**  **10 a product -- I think they would be obligated 11 to still honor the warranty so the homeowner**  **12 wouldn't be penalized. 13 MS. NOLL: So this would be a**  **14 means of identification. Thank you. 15 MR. EISNER: We were talking about**  **16 yesterday what kind of data we have. Do you 17 have any data indicating that there is the**  **18 same likelihood to get a warranty returned 19 from someone who installed the wrong illegal**  **20 equipment in the house as there is from 21 someone who installed legal equipment in the**  **22 house?**

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## 1 In other words, if they know **2 they're installing an illegal piece of 3 equipment will they return the warranty?**  **4 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst 5 from Lennox. Go ahead.**  **6 MR. EISNER: They register with 7 you.**  **8 MR. HURST: I think the warranty 9 filing rates by contractors will go down**  **10 significantly if you start combing that data 11 for anomalies.**  **12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 13 Well, who files the warranty anyway? Is it**  **14 the contractor or the homeowner? 15 MR. HURST: Yes.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: It could be 17 either, I guess.**  **18 MR. HURST: Well, it's not an 19 uncommon practice. And I think it was**  **20 mentioned last meeting where oftentimes the 21 contractor will file the warranty and put**  **22 their address as the consumer location. So**

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## 1 that will lead you back to the contractor. **2 I think if the contractors know, 3 there's one in the room, and the association**  **4 knows that that's going to be the happy 5 hunting ground, the hunting ground dries up.**  **6 And I'm just, you know, I guess it 7 would be good for the manufacturers because**  **8 our warranty claims would go down because 9 nobody would register their warranty. But I**  **10 just don't think that's the outcome we want to 11 pursue.**  **12 So, just be careful of the 13 unintended consequences of using that as your** 
**14 -- 15 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,**  **16 Johnstone Supply. That could be said for 17 anything that you put a requirement on. I**  **18 mean, what you're saying is then every time 19 you do something somebody is going to cheat.**  **20 That's what we've said all along, right? 21 MR. HURST: Yes, but there's**  **22 potential harm to the consumer that --**

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## 1 MR. PORTER: But what you're **2 saying is -- John, what you were saying 3 yesterday is the truth which was about**  **4 cheaters are going to cheat. 5 So you're not going to get correct**  **6 information out of a cheater. It's like 7 somebody robbed your house, they didn't leave**  **8 a business card. 9 So you have to have somewhere or**  **10 some level of data that's going to be put in 11 by homeowners. And there's some that's going**  **12 to be put in by contractors. 13 But that gives you a pointer is**  **14 what I'm saying. There's data to see if you 15 have a pointer. There is no solution that is**  **16 perfect. That's a pointer. 17 MR. HURST: No, I agree with you,**  **18 Steve. You're absolutely right. I would like 19 to focus on a program that precludes people**  **20 from cheating. 21 What I don't want to do is frisk**  **22 shoppers as they walk out of the store to see**

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## 1 if they stole merchandise. I would prefer to **2 put cameras up in the store to give them a 3 second thought about cheating in the first**  **4 place. 5 And so there's really two paths we**  **6 can take. We can catch the bad guys, or we 7 can structure a program that people that would**  **8 have an impetus to cheat just don't do it 9 because they think they're going to get caught**  **10 and the penalty is high and the repercussions 11 are great. That's my preference for a**  **12 program. 13 I have no desire to go out and set**  **14 up an investigative unit within my company. 15 I have no desire to put one person on combing**  **16 through our databases to catch cheaters which 17 are also our customers.**  **18 What I'd prefer is that we have 19 people installing the right stuff, doing the**  **20 right thing, where we don't have to deal with 21 cheating at all.**  **22 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter.**

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## 1 Perhaps we could go to one national standard **2 then. 3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie**  **4 with ACCA. I thought we tried. 5 Since I raised the issue about**  **6 warranties filed by contractors and why 7 sometimes that occurs where they put in their**  **8 own address. 9 Let me reiterate it. We have a**  **10 number of contractors, big contractors who do 11 this. And that's why warranty information may**  **12 not be reliable for this purpose. 13 And the reason they do this is**  **14 because they have found that there are certain 15 manufacturers who will take the information**  **16 filed by the warranty and share it with their 17 more preferred dealers.**  **18 And so in order to avoid losing 19 their customer base to their competitors they**  **20 do it this way. And that's the fact. 21 MR. PORTER: And if that's the**  **22 case that's what I would do.**

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## 1 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with **2 Earthjustice. I'm wondering if there's sort 3 of a different approach we might take with**  **4 some of this. 5 The way I think of information**  **6 retention isn't so much identifying a 7 violator, it's identifying the scope of a**  **8 violation. 9 So, if a contractor comes out and**  **10 sees that there's a unit already installed out 11 there that's non-compliant it seems that you**  **12 wouldn't necessarily need to go right to the 13 contractors in the area. You'd go back up to**  **14 the distributor and try to identify where in 15 the chain that particular unit came down.**  **16 So, you wouldn't necessarily need 17 the contractor to have the serial number for**  **18 the unit because you'd already know the serial 19 number of the non-compliant unit. You'd know**  **20 it was at Mrs. Smith's house which is where it 21 was installed. So maybe the existing records**  **22 that the contractors are keeping are okay.**

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## 1 I'm also wondering in addition to **2 sort of identifying, you know, once we've 3 already identified that there's a non**  **4 compliant unit out there we need information. 5 We need to look at the records for**  **6 that contractor or distributor or whoever 7 we're looking at to see how large the**  **8 potential scope of the problem is. 9 But I'm wondering if there's also**  **10 a role for record retention in sort of the 11 aggregate industry-level data, either through**  **12 AHRI or HARDI to the extent that there is more 13 information out there that wouldn't have to go**  **14 to DOE in sort of a fine grain every time you 15 install a product, but just annually**  **16 industrywide, you know, how many SEER 13 units 17 are out there. How many went to different**  **18 states. 19 Is that sort of a feasible thing**  **20 to try to look for? 21 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with**  **22 Rheem. So I can at least speak for the AHRI**

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## 1 data. I don't know that it shows -- you know, **2 we could supply, we do actually supply data 3 that shows shipments by state. But that has**  **4 -- but that has no relevance on where the unit 5 is installed.**  **6 In fact, there would be a major 7 disconnect if you tried to do something based**  **8 upon that data. 9 For all the reasons that we've gone**  **10 over the last few times. 11 MR. EISNER: That would also be**  **12 true, I assume, of warranty information if it 13 was filed by the contractor with the**  **14 contractor's address. Wouldn't it? You don't 15 know whether it's going to a state where it's**  **16 legal or illegal. If it's a border. 17 MR. GIBBONS: Yes, and I hate to**  **18 sit here -- this is John from Carrier. I hate 19 to be the devil's advocate, but P.O. boxes are**  **20 fairly cheap. So you have one on one side of 21 the river and one on the other. To register.**  **22 MR. EISNER: That raises another**

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## 1 question that concerns many of you which is if **2 the manufacturer is getting warranty 3 information does that then mean you have**  **4 knowledge of it being installed by somebody in 5 the wrong place.**  **6 MR. HURST: Or even worse, you 7 could have a contractor who uses his own**  **8 address as the warranty registration site. 9 They may have complied with the law, but now**  **10 they're identifying themselves as being a 11 violator because they're registering to the**  **12 wrong side of the river, if you will. 13 So, it would be isolated cases but**  **14 you could have a contractor that does that. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I**  **16 liked Steve's suggestion. Let's go back and 17 try and look at the positive part of this and**  **18 see if there aren't remedies for all of the 19 shortcomings that we're finding with the**  **20 warranty card system. 21 That's a system that's already in**  **22 place. And perhaps if there's some way of**

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## 1 addressing these issues we can make that **2 already-in-place system work for us and not 3 have to deal with something more onerous.**  **4 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt 5 Lattanzi with NORDYNE. With respect to**  **6 utilizing the warranty systems a couple of 7 points.**  **8 Gary Clark said this well 9 yesterday. We provide assurances to our**  **10 customers that this data won't be provided to 11 third parties for whatever use. That's one**  **12 point. 13 The other point is every**  **14 manufacturer's system for warranty 15 registration is different. No two of us do**  **16 this the same way. Generally we do it over 17 the web. Some may accept a mailed-in**  **18 registration. The terms are different. 19 That's a second point.**  **20 The third point is for the State 21 of California this is something that we are**  **22 consistent on, and additionally the Province**

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## 1 of Quebec which is not relevant here. But **2 those two areas, registration is not required. 3 And I don't know exactly how --**  **4 I'm not an attorney -- how exactly California 5 gets away with this, but the upgraded warranty**  **6 is in fact the warranty within the State of 7 California regardless of whether the equipment**  **8 is registered or not. So that's the third 9 point.**  **10 And then lastly I'd say I guess 11 I'm really not in favor of exploring the**  **12 warranty registration as a source of data and 13 information to support an enforcement.**  **14 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is 15 Gary again. We're back to the postcard.**  **16 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 17 MR. PORTER: I think you should**  **18 mail one to everybody in California and let 19 them know about this law.**  **20 (Laughter) 21 MS. NOLL: So --**  **22 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter.**

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## 1 I think the -- again, the amount of data or **2 how much data you have. Or you're looking for 3 pointers is what you would want to look to**  **4 comb. 5 And even though I know that the**  **6 reporting that you do, Karen, and others do, 7 the manufacturers, the OEMs do, although it**  **8 may not end up -- you know, you could ship to 9 Chicago and it could end up in Kentucky,**  **10 right? Very easily. 11 And so you're also going to have,**  **12 you know, you have past data to compare. You 13 have a law going in effect. And by doing some**  **14 data-mining or looking at that data you could 15 still find something that may look like an**  **16 anomaly out of it that would cause you to know 17 different. It would start to look like a**  **18 steady run rate. 19 And then anything that didn't,**  **20 that showed up all of a sudden you see, you 21 know, Kentucky looking a lot different than it**  **22 did before. It would be a pointer that there**

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## 1 may be something going on. **2 So I don't think -- you can still 3 use that data as we do data like this all the**  **4 time with distribution where you're looking at 5 things like that. You're looking for**  **6 something that just seems out of the norm or 7 the run, right?**  **8 So month after month it's going to 9 have somewhat of a drumbeat to it. And you're**  **10 really looking for the anomalies out of the 11 data.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Elizabeth, you 13 started to say something?**  **14 MS. NOLL: That is what I was 15 going to say.**  **16 MS. HARIHARAN: This is Johanna 17 from Department of Energy. This is just**  **18 throwing something out there. 19 And to give you a little**  **20 background I'm from Akron, Ohio originally. 21 And I've got a friend, we'll call him Mario.**  **22 And he can -- you call him up and you're like,**

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## 1 hey, I need a new air conditioner. He is **2 going to go out of his way to find you the 3 cheapest air conditioner possible. He's not**  **4 going to -- he's going to ride right under the 5 law.**  **6 And to me the only way to, you 7 know, regulate this is to maybe have the**  **8 person who buys the air conditioner to sign a 9 waiver form, or something that would trace it**  **10 back to them. Because that's the only -- 11 because otherwise you wouldn't be able to**  **12 disregulate it. 13 So, I guess what you would have to**  **14 have is have somebody sign a piece of paper 15 saying I'm not going to take this over the**  **16 border, or I'm not going to install this. I 17 under 14 SEER in the South, 13 SEER in the**  **18 North. 19 It's not going to, you know,**  **20 people are still going to do it but at least 21 then they have the understanding and they have**  **22 the signature on something. It's just an**

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## 1 idea. **2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. We 3 considered that for swimming pool pumps in**  **4 California which, like regional air 5 conditioners, have an application sensitivity.**  **6 And the idea would be when the 7 contractor buys the swimming pool pump out of**  **8 distribution they'd sign the little piece of 9 paper that says I'm not going to use this non**  **10 compliant pump for residential filtration 11 purposes for which it's not allowed.**  **12 That hasn't happened. But if it 13 did there would be no way to do any sort of a**  **14 sample or audit or quality assurance program 15 to find out whether that contractor signing**  **16 the document was living up to his promise or 17 not.**  **18 Because we don't know where the 19 product went and how it was applied.**  **20 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. So 21 we heard from Karen to speak to AHRI's**  **22 database on shipment.**

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## 1 Is there a corollary database that **2 HARDI has that would give a state or region 3 that could produce some sort of trend analysis**  **4 as to where various pieces of equipment are 5 going?**  **6 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with 7 HARDI. AHRI, it's my understanding to be a**  **8 member of AHRI reporting is required. It's 9 not, it's voluntary? Okay. It's my**  **10 understanding though that all of the OEMs at 11 the table participate in that.**  **12 There's no such requirement or 13 program that HARDI runs where a statistically**  **14 significant number would be able to get you 15 any sort of information like that today.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Gary, before you jump 17 in, this is Doug. So we've really been**  **18 talking a lot about different approaches to 19 producing information that could be useful to**  **20 the Department in trying to figure out where 21 to look and how to look.**  **22 I guess where I want to approach**

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## 1 it from a point of view was, does everyone at **2 least agree with the baseline premise that in 3 order for me to effectively be able to enforce**  **4 these standards I have to be able to obtain 5 records from various parties in the market**  **6 chain? Is there a general consensus on that? 7 I'm seeing all the manufacturers**  **8 agree but I'm not necessarily seeing the 9 contractors or the distributors.**  **10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie 11 with ACCA. I wasn't nodding my head, but I**  **12 wasn't disagreeing. 13 I think the way you laid it out,**  **14 the basic elements for you for an 15 investigation require I think it's three basic**  **16 things, installation location, date of 17 location for at least a short period of time**  **18 and location, or -- I'm sorry, the equipment 19 itself for the SEER value.**  **20 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. And 21 if I could add I don't think every piece of**  **22 equipment in every installation needs to be**

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## 1 reported. But a random statistically **2 significant sample needs to be available. 3 And when I say random I mean one**  **4 such that those wishing not to get caught 5 can't escape the system by simply not**  **6 reporting. 7 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So**  **8 we're talking about records for kind of 9 different purposes.**  **10 So there are ones that seem useful 11 for me for targeting for a proactive**  **12 investigation, figuring out where to look. 13 And there are ones that once I**  **14 know of an allegation of violation, in order 15 for me to follow up on them I have to be able**  **16 to drill down on these particular instances to 17 figure out where this person is.**  **18 And then also figure out the scope 19 of that violation. So I have to not only find**  **20 out about that one alleged violation, but are 21 there multiple ones by that same party in**  **22 order to discover if that person is a routine**

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## 1 violator. **2 And then of course there's a 3 question of how do I know that those records**  **4 I'm looking at are genuine and complete. 5 What we do in our current**  **6 enforcement cases once again is when we find 7 something non-compliant we then make the**  **8 manufacturer produce the records that say all 9 of that particular item. And they swear the**  **10 truth and the completeness of the information 11 they provide.**  **12 And then we go out and we 13 oftentimes double-check that information by**  **14 going to who they sold to and make sure that 15 they do correlate.**  **16 So, is there some sort of process 17 where -- because, so listening to what Chuck**  **18 said before where he can only pull up the 19 individual that had it.**  **20 So if I knew that, well, Chuck put 21 it in Mrs. Smith's house and Mrs. Smith is**  **22 non-compliant he can confirm to me when put to**

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## 1 the brass tacks that, yes, that yes, that was **2 a bad one. 3 But then he wouldn't be able to go**  **4 in his database and then pull up for me all 5 the other bad installations he had. I would**  **6 have to ask Chuck for everything else. And 7 then I would have to comb through those**  **8 records and figure out what else is bad. 9 That's kind of what I'm hearing**  **10 and that's not my preferred approach at all 11 because I don't want to be overly burdensome**  **12 to him or to me. 13 So I'm looking is there another**  **14 way to go about this from the point of view of 15 -- from the contractor point of view of record**  **16 retention. 17 And I don't think this needs to be**  **18 answered right now. We have time over the 19 weekend to think more about this.**  **20 I guess what I'm proposing is 21 everybody agrees as a baseline that there**  **22 needs to be some sort of record retention**

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## 1 requirement in order for me to effectively **2 enforce this. 3 And so perhaps I can go back and**  **4 better articulate what I think would work for 5 us. And you folks can go back and better**  **6 articulate what you can make available, 7 understanding better my needs.**  **8 And we can come back next meeting 9 and see if we can meet in the middle**  **10 somewhere. 11 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with**  **12 Ingersoll Rand. I think maybe just a 13 clarification, but I think it is relevant.**  **14 You just laid out the different 15 sort of needs that records could fulfill. And**  **16 I think so it's not really, truly just a 17 matter of record retention. It's also we**  **18 talked about the issue of proactive submission 19 of some forms of information in addition to --**  **20 as I understood it, in addition to retention. 21 Is that right?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So**

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## 1 I'm not pushing for the moment any sort of **2 proactive submission. I have opined at least 3 earlier about the idea of something that came**  **4 through our certification reports that could 5 be submitted.**  **6 I haven't thought through the 7 pluses and minuses of that from the**  **8 Department's point of view, nor what burdens 9 that would place on the individuals to do**  **10 that. 11 And I don't know ultimately how**  **12 effective that information would be in gaining 13 me anything. So I want to think that through**  **14 a little more. 15 But the proactive information that**  **16 we're talking about, the warranties, really 17 seems to me more for two purposes. One, to**  **18 kind of target trends so I can know in a case 19 scenario I can be looking what's going on.**  **20 And two, the warranty information 21 can kind of help me to verify the information**  **22 I'm getting from the contractor. If the**

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## 1 warranty information and the contract **2 information are not lining up, it's another 3 indication I'm not getting a complete picture**  **4 from the contractor which would be concerning 5 and a cause for me to dig further into the**  **6 contractor's records. 7 So, but that's just me thinking**  **8 about it at the moment. And so there are all 9 multiple purposes.**  **10 But I'm not pushing for at the 11 moment any sort of actual proactive**  **12 submission, though if the group feels it has 13 some sort of value I definitely want to think**  **14 more about that. 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I**  **16 just want to stress this difference between 17 data retention and data submission.**  **18 I recall the discussions we had on 19 furnace waivers for non-condensing furnaces.**  **20 It involved some of the manufacturers in HEA 21 and a bunch of other people.**  **22 We had a lot of discussion that**

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## 1 evolved to the point of saying if you wanted **2 to do a non-compliant furnace which is the 3 analogue of this but for the North a**  **4 contractor would have to fill out a form that 5 documented the need for a pre-approved waiver,**  **6 and would have to retain that for inspection. 7 But it would not have to be**  **8 submitted. It wouldn't clog Doug's mailbox. 9 But it would be a tool that would be available**  **10 if there was ever a challenge whether this was 11 a waiver that complied with the proposed**  **12 requirements. 13 And I certainly would find it an**  **14 approach worth exploring that we have a 15 retention requirement, whether that's at**  **16 contractor, distributor, manufacturer, or some 17 combination, for X years that can be queried**  **18 in case other information suggests there is a 19 problem. Other information, for example,**  **20 being the drive-by inspection for a SEER 13 in 21 the South.**  **22 So that kind of a parallel**

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## 1 reinforcing process that puts the **2 investigation responsibility on DOE, but a 3 record retention responsibility where the**  **4 records live might add up to something that 5 gives us the assurances we're looking for.**  **6 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary 7 again. I'd like to address Doug's interest in**  **8 some sort of statistical analysis approach and 9 just think about the numbers.**  **10 So, let me go back to being the 11 HVAC contractor in Yreka. I can probably make**  **12 a pretty good living if I installed one of 13 these things every week as a single individual**  **14 contractor, 52 a year. Maybe not one every 15 week but two some weeks and none others.**  **16 Anyway, 50 units a year. 17 In a field of 7 million units**  **18 being sold annually 50 units a year isn't 19 going to establish any kind of a trend or be**  **20 seen. So, you know, I could install them all 21 illegally and a high-level statistical**  **22 analysis I don't think would ever identify**

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## 1 that. **2 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 3 That was kind of what I was -- on an**  **4 individual reported violation at a site I 5 think the contractor is very helpful with the**  **6 records he has. 7 But for a significant sample for**  **8 statistical analysis unless you're dealing 9 with a very large contractor you're just not**  **10 going to have the numbers from an individual 11 contractor.**  **12 You might be able to come to a 13 contractor and say you did Mrs. Smith's house**  **14 wrong and now I want to look through all your 15 records, and that might tell you what that**  **16 contractor is doing, but I don't know that 17 that -- even if you did that, that that's**  **18 significant enough to extrapolate across the 19 industry.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. I 21 wouldn't want to use that this way. So,**  **22 presumably if I'm asking someone for their**

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## 1 records it's because I'm investigating that **2 person. 3 And so this kind of leads into the**  **4 consequences which we'll obviously have to 5 talk about next week since we're almost out of**  **6 time today. 7 If there's a consequence of a per**  **8 installation fine then of course I want to 9 know how many were installed.**  **10 If we're talking about labeling 11 someone as a routine violator and I can tell**  **12 that they've done at least three or four of 13 these things, and we feel that's sufficient,**  **14 then I don't need to keep digging into those 15 records because I've got enough to make that**  **16 assessment. 17 So, some of that, some of what I**  **18 would ask you to produce would depend on what 19 kind of consequences we're talking about. But**  **20 from a retention point of view I need to have 21 at least those records there so I could look**  **22 at them.**

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## 1 And so it's just helpful for me to **2 understand, once again, folks want us to at 3 least understand that there is going to be a**  **4 record retention requirement necessary 5 seemingly to make this work.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Craig Messmer, you 7 had a question?**  **8 MR. MESSMER: Yes, I just wanted 9 to get a clarification. Are we talking about**  **10 we're trying to avoid having products from the 11 North being sold in the South and Southwest?**  **12 Or we need to maintain a database everywhere? 13 Because really any unit is good in**  **14 the North and what records -- the record 15 requirements for the North should be far less**  **16 than what you might need in California, for 17 example.**  **18 And likewise, any unit that would 19 meet California requirements, that's good for** **20 everywhere. So the requirements for record 21 keeping on those units should be less than**  **22 other units. That's just a comment.**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: Right, Craig. This **2 is Doug. And I keep coming back to the idea 3 that we need to make sure that we -- as I use**  **4 the term now the aperture to what really 5 matters.**  **6 So, in this instance what we 7 really want to know is where 13's or those**  **8 that are below 14's or with the certain EER 9 values, what I neglect to say but it's just so**  **10 much easier to just focus on 13 and 14 from a 11 linguistic point of view. So, where those are.**  **12 The question I guess really of the 13 contractors where if we had industry-different**  **14 requirements for those that were operating in 15 the regions versus those that don't, you know,**  **16 how would that go over? How would that be 17 executed?**  **18 And then how would we ensure that 19 guys who operate kind of over the border are**  **20 following the rules with the ones they're 21 doing on the south of the border which is the**  **22 north side of the border? So that's one issue.**

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## 1 So, just some things about it as **2 far as making sure people can actually follow 3 these things clearly and well.**  **4 I do want to not put burden on 5 guys who don't need it at all. So a guy who's**  **6 operating entirely in New York and never out 7 of New York, why would he have to have any**  **8 sort of record retention requirement regarding 9 regional standards when they don't apply to**  **10 him? 11 I see that. I totally get the**  **12 belief in that. So I want to make sure we're 13 doing what's right with all that understood.**  **14 MR. HURST: John Hurst from 15 Lennox. I want to delineate between record**  **16 retention and sharing of confidential business 17 information.**  **18 I think speaking on behalf of my 19 company we would be happy to and we do today**  **20 retain records on where our shipments go from 21 manufacturing to distribution.**  **22 In one of our businesses we own**

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## 1 our distribution. In another one we don't. **2 We would have information as in 3 the Lennox business where we ship from**  **4 distribution to the dealer. And I think it's 5 pretty reasonable to assume that the**  **6 distributor that we ship to in our allied 7 business retains records of where they ship as**  **8 well. 9 And so if we're talking about**  **10 retention I'll speak for myself and I'll open 11 it up to other manufacturers, but I don't**  **12 think we have an issue with record retention. 13 If the Department comes back with**  **14 a believed violation or a suspected violation, 15 if you came to me and said we have a suspected**  **16 violation and we would like to look at where 17 you shipped this product to and who it was**  **18 sold to I don't think we'd have a problem with 19 sharing that information.**  **20 However, we would have a challenge 21 with sharing confidential business**  **22 information, including warranty data.**

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## 1 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. So **2 John, I guess I don't really view this to be 3 a manufacturer problem because I feel like the**  **4 resources are there at the manufacturer level 5 to retain records. They're a little more**  **6 clean, they're a little more organized. 7 And frankly, we already have kind**  **8 of a jurisdictional issue with you folks. We 9 already have an established practice of what**  **10 records should be retained and how they should 11 be -- so it's really kind of the folks**  **12 downstream that the issue really relates to 13 for regional standards.**  **14 But as far as the sharing of 15 confidential business information the**  **16 Department does ask people to provide 17 information that's considered confidential.**  **18 The practice that we have in place 19 which is codified by the CFR outside of the**  **20 enforcement rules but would still be in play 21 here is that folks who provide confidential**  **22 business information provide two copies, one**

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## 1 with the information for the Department and **2 one that is blacked out. 3 If we ever receive a request for**  **4 that information, we would of course talk to 5 the person that provided the information** **6 before providing it, then review the black 7 outs, make sure we agree it's confidential,**  **8 come to an assessment of whether it is indeed 9 confidential under the FOIA provisions, and**  **10 then produce that information in response to 11 the request.**  **12 So the Department has a practice 13 of obtaining confidential information. And I**  **14 would assume that there's plenty of things 15 here we're talking about, especially from the**  **16 contractor level, that would be confidential 17 and we would treat it the same way.**  **18 But I don't want anyone to be 19 surprised by the fact that we would at least**  **20 be continuing that same practice in theory of 21 asking for confidential business information**  **22 with the guarantee that we'd be taking care of**

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## 1 it in the appropriate and legal fashion. **2 I mean, just so you understand, 3 disclosure of confidential business**  **4 information violates the Trade Secrets Act. 5 So, I could be seen as violating that if I**  **6 were to disclose that information. 7 So I as the custodian of**  **8 confidential business information have 9 powerful incentive to make sure it's treated**  **10 appropriately. And so I think that we all 11 understand that particular provision in my**  **12 office that we have to make sure we're doing 13 the right thing with the information that we**  **14 obtain. 15 MR. WHITE: So, this is Chuck**  **16 White. Not speaking as PHCC at the moment, 17 speaking as a business owner. Anybody want to**  **18 buy a business? 19 (Laughter)**  **20 MR. WHITE: Didn't really think 21 so. I kind of wish I'd have thought a little**  **22 more along these lines earlier. Maybe you**

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## 1 should have asked me that former question **2 before John spoke. 3 So as a business owner I have a**  **4 Sub S corporation. There are C corps, there's 5 partnerships, proprietors, sole proprietors.**  **6 And there are accounting methods of how we 7 live our life.**  **8 So, I have a business that takes 9 in money and it sends out money. And if I'm**  **10 lucky it takes in more than it sends out. 11 Usually that's a crapshoot.**  **12 So I have to file taxes. If it's 13 a C corp, the corp has to file a tax. If it's**  **14 an S corp, the S corp files taxes and that 15 flows through to the partners or the**  **16 stockholders, shareholders. If it's a 17 partnership, sole proprietor, however that is.**  **18 So I have to account for those 19 dollars. And not for you, for the other**  **20 Department of Uncle Sam around here, one of 21 these buildings.**  **22 And I have a 3-year plus the open**

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## 1 year factor. And they can come to me and say **2 we believe there was a business deduction in 3 2012 that should not have qualified. So I**  **4 have to produce the records that justify that. 5 And as I run a business I have**  **6 what's called cost of goods sold which could 7 involve the labor, involve all the parts I**  **8 bought, but that's a factor in my balance 9 sheet.**  **10 So if they're challenging 11 something in that I have to be able to produce**  **12 my records that show my cost of goods sold if 13 that's what they ask me. So a business is**  **14 keeping records, or should be, that 15 demonstrate in that time frame.**  **16 The reality is they're probably 17 keeping more than that because, shoot, we all**  **18 have file drawers. 19 But I think typically the**  **20 businesses you're going to run into for tax 21 purposes have this chunk of records because**  **22 they can come ask me questions really about**

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## 1 anything. **2 And typically it's -- there's a 3 flag, there's something that triggers it. But**  **4 I mean, they could do random things and just 5 come in and say justify these numbers. So I**  **6 don't think it's a stretch to a contractor. 7 Now, there may be some sole**  **8 proprietors, there may be some small shops out 9 there that -- and I've talked to people that**  **10 the way I run my business if there's money in 11 the checking account I'm making money. If**  **12 there isn't money in the checking account I'm 13 not making money.**  **14 There, I'm sure, are some people 15 out there that don't really have good records.**  **16 But I would say the majority have really three 17 years of stuff. And that's I think a pretty**  **18 standard window. And generally it's three 19 years plus the open year.**  **20 So when we hit April 15 next year, 21 actually in corporate it's March, but when we**  **22 hit that a year is going to fall off and we're**

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## 1 going to start moving forward. **2 So if you're asking records 3 retention, what's reasonable record retention**  **4 to a contractor I think a 3-year window is 5 going to be a pretty standard business**  **6 operation from a tax perspective. I've got to 7 do it anyway.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Charlie, is that what 9 you think over there? Or do you want to go**  **10 back and think about it? 11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes, I'd like to**  **12 go back and talk to my folks. 13 I mean, one difference between**  **14 what Chuck described and this would be you're 15 not filing any information about installations**  **16 to the IRS. So this is a different type of 17 records that you're talking about being**  **18 retained. 19 And you know, I've talked to a lot**  **20 of contractors about this. You know, Harvey 21 used the word "query" in terms of looking at**  **22 records. And I think Chuck talked about it.**

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## 1 It may be difficult for some folks **2 to meet the obligation that you're talking 3 about when the records are requested. And it**  **4 may be that it may take some time. 5 So let me go back, talk to my**  **6 folks and get a better sense of what they do 7 and how they do it. And come back.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Let me just give you 9 --**  **10 MR. WHITE: And this is Chuck 11 White again. Charlie's right. The records I**  **12 have are for tax purposes. They're not 13 necessarily in a form that is searchable for**  **14 your purposes. But for my business operation 15 they're in a form suitable for that.**  **16 So, if you came in with specific 17 requests about serial numbers and all that**  **18 it's going to be a search and find. That's 19 going to take some time.**  **20 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with 21 Rheem. Let me just tee up a concrete idea.**  **22 And really I'm teeing this up to Chuck and**

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## 1 Charlie. **2 For the purposes of the 3 enforcement rule it would be required that**  **4 contractors must keep a file that identifies 5 the physical address every 13 SEER unit is**  **6 sold for a period of one year. 7 I don't know if that's even -- you**  **8 know, it's an extra step. 9 MR. WHITE: It would have to be**  **10 created. My software program doesn't have 11 something like that. It would have to create**  **12 something like that. But, again, time, 13 effort.**  **14 I operate in northern Indiana. I 15 don't sell any units south of the Ohio River.**  **16 So, do I need to document 13 units that I sell 17 in northern Indiana?**  **18 And I guess stepping back another 19 magnification here and really kind of a little**  **20 different topic, is this really only 21 applicable to people operating in the South.**  **22 And what's the fairness level here.**

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## 1 If I'm a contractor in the North, **2 I have some burdens I'm not exposed to. If 3 I'm a contractor in the North and you want to**  **4 make it even with me for the people in the 5 South I have some burdens that I'm really not**  **6 entitled to. 7 I have some mismatch issues with**  **8 that. And I don't mean to -- just so they're 9 aired.**  **10 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter. 11 And I think we have to be really cautious**  **12 about new forms, new databases, adding 13 percentages of costs that are ultimately going**  **14 to be borne by the consumer anyway. 15 And I think you have to be really**  **16 careful about one region being different than 17 another that a contractor would have to**  **18 maintain. 19 Then who's -- they would have to**  **20 be trained and informed on that record-keeping 21 requirement, all of them. And then who's**  **22 going to do that and how is that going to be**

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## 1 enforced. **2 I mean, it seems you need a more 3 simple, elegant solution to this which is**  **4 something that is standard that they do now. 5 And sure, there's going to be a**  **6 contractor that you go into that may not have 7 good record-keeping. But I mean, you almost**  **8 need to deal with as you get notice of a 9 violation you're acting on the violation. And**  **10 then you're moving forward and following that 11 chain all the way through.**  **12 But I don't see where you need to 13 put more burdens or requirements on any of the**  **14 things other than the data that exists today 15 which you can subpoena me, them, them and get**  **16 those records today. Right? 17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I**  **18 think another way of saying that is, Doug, 19 when we talk about enforcement is there any**  **20 consideration of whether it needs to be 21 proactive or reactive?**  **22 Because I think what Steve is**

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## 1 talking about is a system through which DOE **2 would react to notices of violation. 3 And is DOE's obligation to be just**  **4 reactive? Or to be both proactive and 5 reactive?**  **6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And 7 before we get to that I think that we have a**  **8 little bit more basic problem in the room. 9 Glenn Hourahan, who's Charlie's**  **10 counterpart and to some extent my exposure to 11 Charlie brainwashed me to thinking that we**  **12 really almost have two end members in the 13 contracting world.**  **14 We've got an awful lot of 15 hardworking people generally incorporated one**  **16 way or another who are running businesses from 17 1 truck and 3 employees up to 100 or more**  **18 trucks. 19 And at the other end we've got Joe**  **20 Six-pack who might be working for Charlie and 21 is doing a little business on the side usually**  **22 with his employer's tools and undercutting his**

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## 1 employer's prices. **2 Now, to some extent this is 3 parody, but this seems to be the fear that the**  **4 legitimate contractors have. 5 What I don't have a sense of is**  **6 the ratio of installations that are done by 7 real contractors who have real records versus**  **8 Joe Six-pack. 9 How many installations are being** **10 done as a result of an internet sale, or cash 11 only over the counter at some renegade**  **12 distributors? 13 And I don't have a sense of**  **14 whether that's 90 percent versus 10 percent 15 bad guy, 98 versus 2 percent, or it's 75/25.**  **16 And I don't know how I can think about it an 17 enforcement system and your proactive/reactive**  **18 without understanding how many banditos are 19 out there riding the range. Yes, Mario's.**  **20 I'm sorry, I'm from Cleveland and that's an 21 upstanding part of the state.**  **22 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is**

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## 1 Gary. Harvey, I think David Hungerford kind **2 of answered that question for us for 3 California. He was making an estimate, but if**  **4 I recall what he said yesterday his guess was 5 maybe 50 percent of the condensing unit**  **6 replacements go in without a permit. 7 Now, if they're going in without a**  **8 permit they're probably not meeting 9 California's requirement to seal the ducts.**  **10 And they're not, therefore, paying the money 11 to seal the ducts, or paying the money to buy**  **12 the local jurisdiction permit. So, their bid 13 is going to be less expensive.**  **14 But that gives you a sense for 15 what the order of magnitude might be.**  **16 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with 17 Ingersoll Rand. I'm not sure that that holds**  **18 nationally. California has extremely unique 19 requirements that can be extremely burdensome**  **20 and costly requirements. 21 I don't want to say that because**  **22 of the California example we're going to**

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## 1 assume that approximately half the contractors **2 are banditos or Mario's, whichever you want to 3 use.**  **4 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst 5 with Lennox. I would say that the amount that**  **6 pull permits in California is a lot less. 7 When I worked for a big box**  **8 retailer I had a retail program with over 800 9 what I would call qualified dealers. And**  **10 those qualified dealers that -- and they were 11 dealers. They were aligned with a national**  **12 manufacturer. They were insured. They had 13 training. They were badged. They groused**  **14 about the big box retailer's requirement to 15 pull permits and freely admitted that they did**  **16 not pull permits in the State of California on 17 their other jobs because of the burdensome**  **18 process. 19 Regarding the percentage of types**  **20 of dealers, very, very rough numbers but I 21 think in the industry you can look at really**  **22 kind of three types of dealers.**

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## 1 One would be a marketing type of **2 dealer. Those are the ones that would send 3 out mailers. You see their face on the truck.**  **4 Everybody in the neighborhood knows them. 5 They have a brand.**  **6 Then there's more of the smaller 7 contractor that is a product-oriented dealer**  **8 that affiliates with one manufacturer or 9 another. They sell on product features versus**  **10 heavy marketing. 11 And then maybe another third is**  **12 what we would call local access where they buy 13 a product over the counter.**  **14 And quite frankly, you can't say 15 good, bad, or indifferent based on those three**  **16 breakouts. If they buy over the counter they 17 may be a very qualified technician that used**  **18 to work for a marketing-oriented dealer and 19 they've broken off. And they're starting**  **20 their new shop and they don't have the capital 21 or the money or the wherewithal to do**  **22 marketing yet. Or maybe they fail.**

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## 1 But I think if you categorize the **2 dealers you can't say, well, this clump of 3 dealers is unsophisticated. Therefore, they**  **4 break the law. 5 I just think these generalizations**  **6 don't really go anywhere. Because we have 7 some really good customers that are two-truck**  **8 operations. They're not very sophisticated, 9 but they really take a lot of pride in what**  **10 they do. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.**  **12 I didn't mean to suggest that the California 13 experience was typical of the country.**  **14 But let's look at the cause and 15 effect. The cause is that following the**  **16 regulations in California is more costly. You 17 have to seal the ducts and pay for the permit.**  **18 That's why compliance is relatively low. 19 In the scenario we're talking**  **20 about the compliant equipment is going to be 21 relatively more costly than the non-compliant**  **22 equipment. I don't know by how much and we**

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## 1 can't really discuss that in this forum. But **2 directionally it's more expensive. 3 So, spinning off California's**  **4 experience, if we're implementing a system in 5 the South and West that requires more**  **6 expensive equipment we might expect the 7 compliance to decline.**  **8 MR. EISNER: If I could, two people 9 have already left. It's almost 3 o'clock. I**  **10 don't want to have to hold people after 3. 11 There are a couple of things.**  **12 Next week we're meeting here Wednesday and 13 Thursday, this room again. Okay, if we're in**  **14 a different room we'll make sure that an email 15 gets out.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Well, when everyone 17 comes in Brenda will direct you to the right**  **18 location as she did this week. 19 MR. EISNER: The second thing is**  **20 we've got a meeting scheduled for October. 21 Doug has suggested to me that people might**  **22 have to start thinking about making**

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## 1 reservations if we're going to go with that **2 meeting in October. 3 Are we prepared to make a decision**  **4 now on whether we need that meeting? Or do we 5 want to wait until the end of next week's**  **6 meeting to see what kind of progress we make? 7 MR. RAWALD: And the reason why I**  **8 wanted to ask the question is because I have 9 no financial liability for buying tickets to**  **10 that meeting but I know folks here might. And 11 I want to give you guys as much time as**  **12 possible. 13 So, as we have two meetings**  **14 scheduled right now. We have the one next 15 week and we have the one at the end of**  **16 September. But we held that first week of 17 October aside as a tentative meeting date.**  **18 And we were making some progress 19 but we still have a lot of thorny things to**  **20 think through. So I don't know if folks want 21 to wait till the end of next week and say,**  **22 yes, we think we're going to need that extra**

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## 1 meeting, or if you want to just go ahead and **2 book it now so we can buy tickets. Just let 3 us know your thoughts I guess.**  **4 MR. WHITE: When you said the 5 first week of October do you have the dates?**  **6 Okay, okay. First and second because it's not 7 the full week.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Right. It's October 1 9 and 2.**  **10 MR. EISNER: Anybody think we 11 should decide now, or would you prefer to wait**  **12 till the end of the meetings next week? 13 Anybody disagree? Okay, so we'll wait till**  **14 the end of next week. 15 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug.**  **16 And I just confirmed that we are back in this 17 room next week. So, it should be easy enough.**  **18 MR. EISNER: The one thing, I know 19 I've asked for it before and there may be no**  **20 solutions like that. 21 Forget the boxes, forget**  **22 everything you've been talking about today.**

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## 1 When you put your feet up and think you're **2 going to relax for a few minutes over the 3 weekend think about something that's not what**  **4 you've done before. How are you going to get 5 the information?**  **6 Not to identify every violator. 7 You'll never get that. How are you going to**  **8 make sure DOE is going to get a sufficient 9 number of violations to make sure they've got**  **10 a handle on the problem and they're addressing 11 it?**  **12 As opposed to coming up with 13 something that's going to cost a lot of money**  **14 for one party but not get you any information 15 that's going to identify anybody who's**  **16 violating it. 17 Think of something unique,**  **18 something outrageous. We'll make sure DOE 19 comes up with some kind of an award for the**  **20 most outrageous one, and double the amount for 21 the most outrageous one that works. Okay? Is**  **22 that something you can work out over the**

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## 1 weekend? **2 (Laughter) 3 MR. SACHS: I appreciate that and**  **4 I think it's very helpful, Neil. But I don't 5 think I can address that with the additional**  **6 concern of trying to not tilt the field 7 against the reputable without having a sense**  **8 of whether Joe Six-pack is a predominant part 9 of the industry.**  **10 MR. EISNER: You're thinking about 11 imposing a burden on everybody. Well, you**  **12 don't have to level the playing field with 13 some of the things.**  **14 An incentive to report violations. 15 I'll throw in a wild one, all right? If you**  **16 said we will give an award, DOE will give an 17 award of $250 or $500 to any homeowner in the**  **18 South who has had a unit put in that is 19 illegal. And you give them the information in**  **20 the announcement of the award. 21 So somebody comes to them and puts**  **22 in a system and they say oh, I've got a 13 on**

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## 1 this unit, or I just checked it on the AHRI **2 website. It doesn't count. And I can get 3 $250 from Doug's personal account if I report**  **4 it to him. 5 Outrageous, maybe? I don't know.**  **6 But it doesn't hurt anybody. It doesn't take 7 any money out of anybody's pocket except DOE**  **8 and they might have to stick a condition in 9 there if we find out that it was illegal.**  **10 An incentive for somebody to 11 report it and say I didn't know they did that**  **12 to me and I get $250 off my unit now. 13 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I**  **14 actually thought where Karen was headed was a 15 really productive path in terms of as a**  **16 stakeholder potentially coming up with some 17 ideas in terms of what are things that could**  **18 be done within your scope of influence to be 19 able to bring to the table for people to**  **20 consider and chew on. 21 And probably would be most helpful**  **22 if you were able to do that from your own**

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## 1 perspective. So, she unfortunately put **2 herself in the position of putting that on a 3 contractor, but it would be helpful for**  **4 contractors and others to -- and I say that as 5 I don't have to, but Harvey has already given**  **6 me homework. 7 MR. EISNER: Think about some of**  **8 the ones that were put on the table this 9 afternoon that some people liked and some**  **10 people saw problems with. 11 So, the second part of the**  **12 assignment is how do you address the problems 13 that some people had with the ideas that were**  **14 put on the table. 15 These notes -- when do you think**  **16 they'll have them out? 17 MS. LUDWIG: Tonight.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Tonight. So you can 19 work all weekend on this. All right? Everyone**  **20 have a nice weekend. See you next week. 21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **22 matter went off the record at 2:55 p.m.)**

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141:12 146:10 220:9 20-plus 141:14 2011 90:14 2012 89:21 261:3 2013 89:21 2014 1:8 203 3:9 21 72:17,19,22 73:5 22 136:16 220:15 25 25:8 207:9 250,000 92:3 273 3:11 28 1:8 55:7 29 100:19 144:18 207:8 3 3 3:11 73:4,4 130:13

268:17 274:9,10 3-year260:22 263:4 30 94:17 300 78:18 305.14 20:14 4 3:6,11 55:8 72:20

148:12 40-hour 137:15 400 224:9 410 135:3 136:16 45 147:2 5 5 22:10 72:20 118:17

209:6 5-year209:7 50 78:19,21,21 250:16

250:18 270:5 500,000 97:2 52 250:14 6 608 173:1 69 3:2 7 7 73:3 250:17 73 3:3 75-year-old 36:14 75/25 269:15 79 3:3 8 8.5 59:14 80 64:3,5 117:20 118:15 80/80 64:3 800 81:4 271:8 83-year-old 59:17 86 55:2 8E-089 1:11 9

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### C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 310

Central Air Conditioners Regional Standards Enforcement Working Group

US DOE

08-28-14

Washington, DC