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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

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 CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONER REGIONAL STANDARDS

 ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP

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 PUBLIC MEETING

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 THURSDAY

 AUGUST 28, 2014

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 The Public Meeting met in Suite

8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Neil Eisner, 

Meeting Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT

NEIL EISNER, Meeting Facilitator

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice

JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand

RAY ELLIS, Lincoln Electric Cooperative 

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor Owned 

 Utilities 

JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation 

JOHN HURST, Lennox International

MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc. 

CHARLES McCRUDDEN, Air Conditioning

 Contractors of America 

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company

ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense 

 Council

STEVE PORTER, Johnstone Supply

DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy,

 Office of the General Counsel 
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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PRESENT: (cont'd)

ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company

BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls 

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an 

 Energy-Efficient Economy

AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating and 

 Refrigeration Institute

CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling 

 Contractors - National Association 

DAVID WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises

ALSO PRESENT 

KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 

 Refrigeration Institute

LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting

JOHANNA HARIHARAN, U.S. Department of Energy

DAVID HUNGERFORD, ASRAC and California 

 Energy Commission*

CRAIG MESSMER, Unico*

JON MELCHI, HARDI

TERRY SMALL, Mortex Products Incorporated* 

ERIC STAS, American Council for an Energy-

 Efficient Economy

*via teleconference 
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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 CONTENTS

Number 2: Tear-off Labeling . . . . . . . . .69

 - Tracking chip on units. . . . . . . . . . .73

 - Communication down sales chain. . . . . . .79

 - DOE database of contractors . . . . . . . 107

 - Training to contractors, distributors

on compliance with regional standards. . . . 123

Number 4: Use of AHRI database

certificates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 148

Collection of information, suspected

violations data. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 163

Records retention for a specified time in a

specified manner . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 203

Recap progress/agree to items for next

meeting (September 3 and 4). . . . . . . . . 273
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:03 a.m.

3 MR. EISNER: All right, the sense

4 I've gotten from talking to a few of you

5 sitting around the table now is that we made

6 a lot of great progress yesterday. 

7 And I've had some suggestions

8 about trying to keep this going in the right

9 direction, focusing on, first of all, what our

10 goal is, and it's to get an effective

11 enforcement program.

12 And to get an effective

13 enforcement program doesn't mean asking one

14 party to bear all the responsibilities or

15 talking about why things can't be done.

16 The group has been very, very

17 positive and I think you deserve a lot of

18 kudos for that. And I want you to continue

19 that. I want you to continue putting forward

20 things that you think will work rather than

21 trying to point out what won't work.

22 To the extent we don't finish a
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1 significant portion of this today, think about

2 that over the weekend before we meet next

3 week. 

4 And that's a reminder for

5 everybody. Some people apparently forgot

6 we're meeting two days next week. That you

7 need to give some thought to innovative

8 approaches to this.

9 You need to also remember, as I

10 stressed yesterday, you've got a lot of

11 flexibility in the way you set this up. You

12 ask can I do this, can I do that. Bring those

13 questions up and let's talk about them because

14 there are a lot of different ways you can set

15 up an enforcement program. 

16 And Doug has stressed throughout

17 that DOE is willing to listen to a lot of

18 these things. And he wants to have some

19 candid conversations on these things. So

20 let's talk about them.

21 That brings us back to the list of

22 items that we worked on yesterday. You should
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1 all have a copy of it. So I'd like to get

2 your thoughts on how you want to proceed.

3 We've broken them up into five

4 categories and we had one left over, the

5 review process, that didn't fit into any of

6 the five categories.

7 Would you like to go through each

8 of these now, discuss them and then rank them

9 in terms of both their effectiveness and their

10 ease of implementation?

11 Or do you want to do the latter

12 first?

13 MR. RAWALD: And Neil, if I could

14 jump in here. This is Doug.

15 If you flip it over to the other

16 side they're arranged by buckets which was the

17 ask from the group. So, I see everyone is

18 doing it. The color-coded side.

19 MR. EISNER: So, any thoughts? I

20 would think from my perspective, and you know

21 this subject better than I do, we probably

22 should spend some time going down the list and
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1 talking about not only the subject, for

2 example, FTC label, but all the different

3 things we're talking about when we're talking

4 about that.

5 And then discuss for that one

6 which quarter of the circle we were going to

7 put it in. And then go to the next item.

8 We've got a short day today but I

9 think if we approach this in an organized way

10 we'll at least know we're making some progress

11 as we start to discuss these things, whether

12 they'll work, how they'll work and how

13 difficult we think they'll be to implement.

14 You've got to keep in mind the

15 burden that these things -- whom they're going

16 to be placed on. Are you going to ask the

17 manufacturers to do a lot more? And is there

18 justification for that?

19 And say you don't want the

20 installers to have to do much of anything. 

21 And how much are you going to

22 impose on DOE? Because DOE doesn't even have
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1 control necessarily over its budgetary

2 resources. It could be doing a great job and

3 earning a profit for the government. That

4 doesn't mean it's going to get the resources

5 to effectively implement this program. So we

6 have to talk about those in some detail.

7 I've got Terry Small. Two

8 presentation materials to move comments on

9 waivers. Not sure what that means.

10 Terry, are you on the phone? Can

11 he speak with us? Terry?

12 MR. SMALL: Yes, can you hear me?

13 MR. EISNER: Yes.

14 MR. SMALL: Okay. I don't know

15 how well people can hear me. 

16 But yes, I said, I don't know, can

17 you bring up the two slides I guess that

18 probably -- the one with the cutaway, the

19 first one. Yes. That's a good starting

20 point.

21 So, I know the discussion, we're

22 talking about waivers. Can everybody hear me?
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1 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 

2 So, the agenda tentatively had scheduled a

3 discussion of waivers this morning.

4 What Neil has been discussing is

5 diverging from that schedule. Because we made

6 a lot of headway yesterday on a number of

7 issues.

8 So Neil has not introduced nor

9 have we teed up the discussion on waivers yet. 

10 MR. SMALL: Could we delay then? 

11 Could we delay my comments for the waiver

12 discussion?

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think

14 they'd be most germane for that. So right now

15 we have a number of other things that we've

16 kind of put in the way of the waiver

17 discussion. 

18 The waivers were teed up on the

19 agenda, but it looks like, pending the group

20 having overwhelmingly say we want to engage in

21 waiver discussions right now, that may be

22 something that we could delay to a later
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1 meeting.

2 And if you want us to review some

3 materials on it to kind of get ready for a

4 discussion on it, if you could give us some

5 homework to look at that as well that would be

6 fine.

7 MR. EISNER: In fact, would it

8 help if --

9 MR. SMALL: Well, I just had --

10 MR. EISNER: Would it help if we

11 explain those two slides?

12 MR. SMALL: -- easy to --

13 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, Terry. 

14 Would it help if --

15 MR. SMALL: -- with whatever you

16 want to do. We can delay my comments. It

17 would be fine.

18 MR. EISNER: Would five minutes

19 explaining what the slides are so that people

20 can look at them over the weekend help in any

21 way?

22 MR. SMALL: Sure, it's always good
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1 food for thought.

2 MR. EISNER: There's some thought

3 around the table that we should proceed first

4 with the charts we were working on yesterday,

5 and then put off discussion of the waiver and

6 the slides until later. So we will get back

7 to you. And you can always remind us.

8 MR. SMALL: Great, I will. Thank

9 you so much.

10 MR. EISNER: You're welcome. So,

11 let's go back. Is that an appropriate

12 approach? Everybody happy with that? We'll

13 take each item.

14 So we've got the list up here. 

15 The first one is the FTC label. And the one

16 thing we say under 1 is increase visibility,

17 add luminescence, increase size. 

18 Everybody want to talk about

19 whether this is it, or do we want to add more

20 to this subject area?

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary

22 for the California IOUs. 
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1 I was thinking last night about

2 how this label would be utilized. And in my

3 mind it might be utilized at the time of

4 delivery when the contractor on the site or

5 someone on the site is looking at the carton

6 to see that the right product was shipped to

7 the job site.

8 And it might be utilized later by

9 a building inspector, or a utility evaluator

10 trying to determine whether or not eligibility

11 requirements were met for rebates, or that

12 individual would need to look at the unit

13 because the carton would be gone.

14 So, I think it's important to have

15 some sort of an indication of performance both

16 on the carton and on the unit itself because

17 those needing to determine compliance may have

18 either one or the other. 

19 They may be looking at the carton

20 or they may later be looking at the product,

21 the condensing unit itself.

22 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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1 with Lennox. 

2 You know, labeling doesn't have to

3 be driven solely by the Federal Trade

4 Commission. For example, we have labeling on

5 our boxes that have a big picture of Dave

6 Lennox. You may have seen them.

7 We could as an industry choose to

8 put something that identifies "for

9 installation in the northern region only." We

10 don't have to go back to the FTC to do

11 something on our boxes, or even on our

12 equipment. 

13 So, up there it says FTC labeling. 

14 We could agree as an industry to identify

15 product through our distribution on the boxes

16 on the outside or on the product that just

17 says "not for sale in southern markets" or you

18 know, whatever the appropriate statement needs

19 to be that a dealer or a distributor could

20 reasonably see that that product shouldn't go

21 to certain states.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary
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1 again. I totally agree with you. I don't

2 think it has to be the mandatory FTC label, or

3 a government authorized label. It could be

4 something that industry would do voluntarily.

5 But I think we need it in both

6 places so the utility inspector or the

7 building inspector or the folks at the job

8 site have something there to determine that

9 they have the right product.

10 MR. ROCKY: Bryan Rocky, Johnson

11 Controls. So, am I wrong in remembering what

12 the change in the labeling requirements are

13 for January? That we have to, as

14 manufacturers, put a label on the unit and one

15 on the outside of the packaging?

16 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy with

17 Goodman. The requirement to make the label

18 available on the package I believe has been

19 around for awhile now. So, I think

20 manufacturers are already doing that. It has

21 to be visible from outside.

22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with
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1 AHRI. The label doesn't have to be on the

2 unit itself. It is on the packaging on the

3 box. The FTC label, absolutely.

4 MR. EISNER: Any other comment on

5 this?

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary

7 again. Just to conclude my point.

8 From my perspective it's important

9 that it be in both places so that those that

10 would be concerned about validating the

11 performance of the equipment would have the

12 information there to determine whether or not

13 it meets the requirements.

14 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White,

15 PHCC. If the clarification that was discussed

16 yesterday goes through, that everything in the

17 South will be no less than 14 then those

18 labels, those pieces of equipment will say 14. 

19 It's going to make it much easier up and down

20 the food chain.

21 As a contractor I will be

22 presenting that in the sales literature. I
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1 will have to do that. If it's on the package,

2 it's visible. The delivery person, the

3 installer, the person that unboxes it will be

4 able to see that. 

5 

6 If FTC, if we would decide and if

7 FTC agreed that we could kind of reorient

8 things so that things that are under 14 say

9 "only in the North" that I think could be a

10 plus. But I think the FTC label is going to

11 be really helpful at least on our end.

12 And manufacturing labeling and

13 things on the boxes that they wish to do

14 voluntarily, that's -- I think that's a plus. 

15 But not necessarily every

16 manufacturer would do that because it wouldn't

17 be required. We have no way to know that

18 everybody that makes a unit in the world would

19 do that.

20 But I think the label is very

21 important.

22 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. We've
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1 talked a lot about the label at this point. 

2 And I think what we understand is there's a

3 label rule that's in effect, it's going to go

4 into effect no matter what we do here because

5 of the pace of rulemaking is such that we

6 won't be able to avoid that label.

7 Given the DOE interpretation of

8 what a 14 is in response to Karen's question,

9 the label as it currently is at least is

10 usable, at least provides enough information

11 for us to go on.

12 So what I would suggest is that we

13 not spend a whole lot more time talking about

14 the label because we can't change anything

15 about the label in the immediate future but we

16 can make some other immediate changes that may

17 have more impact on what we're doing here.

18 What might be a good idea is to

19 have a couple of folks work together outside

20 the group. And I think Jordan recommended

21 having a subgroup, or even just having some

22 folks work together more informally to put
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1 together what would be a nice label that would

2 meet everyone's needs. Then come back to the

3 group later on in our discussion and say

4 here's a label as we think, what do folks

5 think. And then let's talk about it.

6 But let's kind of put that aside

7 with some folks assigned to work on it and

8 then focus on some other things today if we

9 could. That would be my suggestion.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so Doug,

11 this is Gary again. I think we have the label

12 well enough nailed down and I understand the

13 FTC limitations.

14 I just want to make sure that

15 there's some mark that is going to be visible

16 to those that need to see it.

17 And secondly, if it's going to be

18 an industry voluntary mark it needs to be all19 inclusive. We have to have everybody that's

20 making this product agree to do it because if

21 some don't then it would lose its usefulness.

22 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with
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1 Allied. Just for clarity the requirements for

2 the label as I understand them now are the

3 energy guide label has to be made available

4 online and with the implementation of regional

5 standards. The actual label is applied to the

6 carton of the product. So it's in two places.

7 MR. BALLO: This is Tim

8 Earthjustice. Just to quote from the

9 regulations. "Manufacturers and private

10 labelers must provide to distributors and

11 retailers, including assemblers, energy guide

12 labels for covered central air conditioners,

13 heat pumps and furnaces they sell to them.

14 "The label may be provided in

15 paper or electronic form, including internet16 based access. Distributors must give this

17 information to retailers including assemblers

18 they supply."

19 MR. RAWALD: And Tim, just for

20 clarity for those following along who might

21 read this record one day, where is that

22 citation from?
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1 MR. BALLO: 10 CFR 305.14.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So, the

3 shortcoming of that -- this is Gary again --

4 is that it does not speak to whomever may be

5 inspecting the unit.

6 And I think this group needs to

7 maybe -- apart from FTC -- needs to address

8 how the inspectors are going to be able to

9 determine qualification.

10 MR. BALLO: And just to be clear,

11 there are additional requirements for

12 retailers and further down the chain for

13 providing the label. But those were the

14 requirements for manufacturers.

15 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

16 Ingersoll Rand. I just want to respond to

17 Gary's point.

18 Obviously every state does things

19 a little bit differently. I would at least

20 offer my view that with the vast majority of

21 products sold, at least historically, being at

22 or near the federal minimum you certainly do
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1 not have as standard course a utility

2 representative involved in that transaction.

3 Fundamentally what we're talking

4 about here are minimally compliant products

5 going forward.

6 And furthermore, building

7 inspectors or other kinds of permitting

8 officials being involved in what I would call

9 the majority of HVAC replacements is also not

10 the norm. Not saying it doesn't happen, but

11 it is not the norm. So I think to be building

12 a system that is reliant on something that's

13 effectively outside the norm is really not in

14 keeping with what we've been talking about

15 here. We've been talking about building a

16 system that recognizes how the industry tends

17 to operate most of the time today. So I don't

18 think we need to be overly focused on

19 providing information to parties that are just

20 not involved in the majority of transactions.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary

22 again. I think we need to have the capacity
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1 to easily audit all systems for compliance. 

2 And if that means that some

3 measure needs to be taken such as a label

4 which isn't going to be utilized very often,

5 that's okay. We need to have the capacity to

6 easily determine compliance in every case

7 where someone may be looking.

8 MR. EISNER: Would you want to add

9 something to DOE collection of information in

10 number 5 under the caption of "ease of

11 determining compliance through labels or other

12 means?" We can talk about it when we get

13 there in that context.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: It doesn't matter

15 to me organizationally where it goes into our

16 list. I just think it's an important issue

17 that needs to be addressed.

18 MR. EISNER: Let's put that up

19 there as a placeholder.

20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

21 AHRI. Can you elaborate who is "we?" Is it

22 DOE? Is it California Energy Commission? Who
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1 is "we?"

2 MR. FERNSTROM: "We" would be any

3 entity that later is obligated to determine

4 compliance. So, that could be compliance with

5 the eligibility requirements for a utility

6 rebate program. And it might be a utility

7 field inspector looking at the equipment.

8 It might be a building inspector

9 where a permit has been taken out and the

10 building inspector is called to the site and

11 doesn't want to have to look up the serial

12 number and cross-check it against the AHRI

13 database.

14 It might be an auditor from the

15 Department of Energy that goes out to the site

16 on a spot check basis to determine how things

17 are going nationally.

18 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. Gary

19 and I work a lot on motors as well. So I

20 think what he's talking about is a

21 translatable concept from the motors world

22 where a motor has a nameplate that has its
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1 average full load efficiency on it, or nominal

2 full load efficiency.

3 So it sounds like what he's

4 saying, he wants actually something on the

5 product that has a SEER value which may be

6 something that's currently done, I don't know. 

7 I don't know what the current label that

8 exists on the actual condensing unit says

9 regarding SEER. 

10 I know it has a model number. It

11 has other electrical information, you know,

12 three-phase, single-phase, that kind of stuff

13 if it contains SEER. 

14 And that seems to be the kind of

15 thing that Gary is looking at, is can someone

16 walk into your backyard to where your

17 condensing unit is, looking at it and say, oh,

18 it's a 14 SEER. It's okay. That's the way I

19 view it. It's different from the energy --

20 MS. MEYERS: So Doug, this is

21 Karen with Rheem. Could I request 10 minutes

22 to caucus? 
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1 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry, Karen?

2 MS. MEYERS: Can I request 10

3 minutes for a caucus?

4 MR. EISNER: Oh, sure, certainly. 

5 MS. MEYERS: I have something I

6 would like to discuss with the manufacturers.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's take 10

8 minutes. It's almost 25 after.

9 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

10 matter went off the record at 9:23 a.m. and

11 resumed at 9:40 a.m.)

12 MR. EISNER: All right, let's go

13 back on the record. Who's going to report on

14 the results of the caucus?

15 MS. MEYERS: Okay, so this is

16 Karen Meyers with Rheem.

17 So I think we had some discussion

18 that will require a lot of us to go back and

19 check within our own facilities.

20 But I think the first question is

21 since we're all here to develop a DOE

22 enforcement plan, does having a second label
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1 on the unit help us towards that goal?

2 So I guess I'm going to direct

3 this question to you, Doug. And so how does

4 having a second label on a unit help with a

5 DOE enforcement plan? I guess I'm a little

6 unclear how that would actually be effective.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is

8 Doug. And so we had, actually, a little bit

9 of discussion with the installers while you

10 were gone. We took advantage of the caucus to

11 caucus ourselves among a bigger group.

12 And what I thought was interesting

13 is, so, what I envision is two kinds of

14 scenarios based upon what Tim described

15 yesterday, the actual detection of concerns

16 with the condensing unit. The homeowner looks

17 at it or a servicing installer later on comes

18 into your house and looks at your condensing

19 unit.

20 And if they're able to look at it

21 physically and it says on it 14 SEER or 13

22 SEER the person who looks at it can say, oh,
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1 this is not -- this shouldn't be here. So,

2 either a servicing technician or the homeowner

3 who has been informed by the public awareness

4 campaign that we're going to engage in,

5 they're going to go out in their back yard and

6 look at their condensing unit and say, oh,

7 it's a 14 SEER, it's okay, or a 13 SEER, it

8 shouldn't be here. So I think that might be

9 a valuable check to at least consider.

10 It's funny because Neil and I had

11 a discussion before we got here this week. 

12 And he went in his backyard to look at his

13 condensing unit. And he called me and said

14 oh, it's a 14.5. So he was able to tell from

15 looking at his unit. So I know there are some

16 units that have that SEER value on their

17 manufacturer label that's on the product. 

18 And so it's just a point of

19 question. Is that somebody that people do or

20 don't do? And if they don't do it, is it

21 something they could do?

22 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. In
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1 the conversation that John posed was on the

2 manufacturer on the box. And then what Gary

3 is posing was on the piece of equipment. So

4 those are two slightly or largely different

5 things.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is

7 Gary. To respond to Karen's question about

8 the importance, the importance is simply can

9 you tell whether the unit is compliant or not. 

10 And DOE needs to be able to do that.

11 So if the unit is all that's left,

12 the carton is gone, yes, you can tell, but you

13 have to look up the model number in the AHRI

14 database and find out what the performance is.

15 I think it would be much easier

16 for those wanting to determine compliance if

17 compliance were easily determined and

18 conspicuous. 

19 So that's the importance. You

20 just need to be able to tell.

21 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

22 Rheem. I guess, Gary, it depends a little bit
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1 on your perspective. 

2 If I can walk up to any unit and

3 look at that model number and go to an

4 electronic database and type that model number

5 and find out the efficiency of that unit; I

6 think that's pretty easy.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I think --

8 do we have the representative from the

9 building industry here today? I guess not. 

10 But I think you'd find that the building

11 inspectors are very, very busy and oftentimes

12 so burdened that they only have time to look

13 at health and safety issues, and not really

14 carefully inspect for efficiency.

15 The easier we can make it for them

16 the more likely they're going to pay attention

17 to it, and the more likely there will be some

18 degree of inspection and compliance.

19 MR. EISNER: Can I ask what the

20 concern is about putting a label on the

21 equipment? Is it cost or interference?

22 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with
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1 Rheem and I'll respond to that. That is part

2 of it. 

3 You have to understand that

4 there's a real estate problem on units too. 

5 I mean, where possibly could we put this

6 label? If we incur the extra cost to do that

7 it's not going to be very big because there's

8 just simply not physical room on the unit to

9 do that.

10 We've all committed that we were

11 going to go back and talk to our production

12 people about whether this is even feasible for

13 us to do. And we hope we can come back next

14 week and maybe give you a more clarifying

15 answer. 

16 But I think it's still -- to me,

17 whether you're keying in a 10-digit number

18 that's your model number. And in many cases,

19 at least in my company, it's much shorter than

20 that, into a directory to determine the

21 efficiency of that unit I'm struggling with

22 why that's not acceptable versus requiring a
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1 manufacturer to -- we have one label on there

2 at least in my company's instance. I don't

3 think it could be incorporated onto the

4 current label. 

5 So that would be an additional

6 label for us. An additional label for us

7 means another person on our manufacturing

8 line. It means the cost of that label, the

9 labor to put it on. And it probably could not

10 be a label that would be -- just because of

11 the design of our units I'm not sure the label

12 could be consistent among all manufacturers. 

13 So now you have this issue where

14 all manufacturers are going to have different

15 labels and the wording is going to have to be

16 what can physically fit on that unit.

17 But what you have today is

18 something very, very consistent. You can look

19 at the model number of almost any

20 manufacturer's 13 or 14 by just reading that

21 model number. It says either 13 or 14

22 somewhere, probably in that model number. 
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1 It's pretty easy today.

2 So, I'm struggling with why doing

3 this, I mean that's about as electronic as you

4 can get. It's easier than getting your

5 scanner to work on your phone.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

7 Let me draw a comparison to what we discussed

8 yesterday.

9 Industry says it's too time10 consuming and expensive to mail in a postcard. 

11 It's too time-consuming and expensive to put

12 an additional label on, and there may not be

13 real estate enough to even find a space for

14 it.

15 But it's no problem if the

16 building inspector has to get out their

17 computer and look up electronically the AHRI

18 database. 

19 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

20 MR. HURST: iPhones. I mean,

21 everybody has a browser in their pocket now,

22 so.
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1 MR. HUNGERFORD: All right, can I

2 step in here? This is David Hungerford with

3 the Energy Commission.

4 Can you guys hear me?

5 MR. EISNER: Yes.

6 MR. HUNGERFORD: You know, I'm not

7 really as concerned here with the ability of

8 professionals like the installers, like the

9 building inspectors -- I'm getting feedback so

10 I'm fairly confused.

11 My main point is that it's the end

12 consumer that needs to be the target of this

13 label. And I think -- smaller and the

14 standards is the most important element. 

15 And to that end, the consumer is

16 not going to be able to look anything up no

17 matter what kind of education campaign you do.

18 Awareness of public education

19 campaigns on neighboring engineering details

20 like this are in the single digits. So,

21 that's not going to work.

22 A conspicuous label, as Gary
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1 pointed out, that points out not just the SEER

2 number because -- or EER number in our case is

3 not very useful either.

4 A label that says something to the

5 effect of this unit is for sale in these

6 states, not for sale in other states subject

7 to federal penalty in large enough type

8 somebody can read it standing next to it is a

9 built-in incentive for installers not to put

10 in the wrong unit because somebody is going to

11 see that. 

12 And for the consumer to be able to

13 see whether he's getting the right unit

14 installed. I mean, that's self-enforcing. 

15 Something like that could eliminate the need

16 for all kinds of database development and

17 reporting requirements and tracking and all of

18 that if you just had something simple like

19 that in place.

20 So, let's not abandon the idea of

21 a label as too costly because you'd have to

22 hire somebody to put a sticker on the box when
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1 you're avoiding, potentially avoiding other

2 costs.

3 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen

4 with Rheem. I'd like to respond to that.

5 So if your concern is that the

6 homeowner ensures that he's getting the

7 correct unit that is covered today in the new

8 appliance labeling rules that go into effect

9 in January where the retailer is required to

10 give a copy of that energy guide label to the

11 homeowner. So he will have that information.

12 So, does it allow for people to go

13 walk up and down neighborhood blocks and look

14 at units? Maybe not. But they still could do

15 it because, you know, the model number is

16 still on that unit.

17 The homeowner is already going to

18 be getting this information. It's required. 

19 We can have Tim read us back the language

20 again. 

21 So, you know, if we're wanting to

22 develop a police force to go out there and
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1 check it then, you know, that may not be good

2 enough.

3 But from what I just heard from

4 the California Energy Commission is they want

5 to make sure that the homeowner knows that

6 he's bought a compliant unit. We have a

7 method that does that.

8 MR. RAWALD: Karen, this is Doug. 

9 So I guess the scenario that may be

10 envisioned, though, is the consumer who buys

11 it and gets the energy guide label, doesn't

12 know what it is and puts it aside, is not

13 savvy. 

14 But then the 75-year-old

15 grandmother's grandson comes over and he goes

16 out in the backyard and he says oh Grandma,

17 did you notice this label on your air

18 conditioner says it shouldn't be sold in Utah,

19 and here we are in Utah and you have it. Then

20 she says oh, I didn't know that. And then

21 they call the number.

22 So, I guess what these folks are
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1 saying is there are scenarios where having the

2 information on the unit itself, where it would

3 not disappear and where we know it would

4 always be present would be a nice check on

5 that.

6 And so I appreciate the fact that

7 it sounds like the manufacturers want to go

8 back and talk to your folks and get at least

9 some numbers and a sense of whether this could

10 be accomplished.

11 But I think there's at least some

12 value in this discourse. I don't want to

13 dismiss it as something that is really

14 unwanted because there is some value.

15 From the Department's point of

16 view I'm not going to bring in an enforcement

17 case without verifying the model through every

18 means necessary to make sure the model number

19 is actually noncompliant. 

20 But I think as far as alerting the

21 Department to mistakes which is what the

22 concern is here. A lot of people are saying
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1 the industry can police itself and these extra

2 checks can help provide that. 

3 So, it seems like an ask that's at

4 least worth researching further from our point

5 of view.

6 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

7 Ingersoll Rand. Manufacturers are committed

8 to doing that.

9 And I just want to circle back on

10 what the characterization has been here I

11 think.

12 It's not that we're unwilling to

13 do it. It's that we're saying there is a real

14 cost and it is not insignificant.

15 But we're not willing to do it and

16 simply it doesn't make sense to do it if

17 there's not enough of a consensus in the room

18 that it would be an important tool in aiding

19 in compliance. That is our point.

20 So, we're not going to do it and

21 then have people say it's really not that

22 useful.
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1 So what we're looking for is a

2 reasonable degree of clarity on just how

3 useful it would be so that we can perform some

4 kind of cost-benefit analysis if it's worth it

5 for us to do. That's really what we're saying

6 here. But regardless we are going to go back

7 and investigate it.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

9 MR. SACHS: Hey, Gary, put your

10 hand up. It's my turn.

11 (Laughter)

12 MR. FERNSTROM: My hand is

13 supporting my chin here, Harvey.

14 It seems to me that a reasonable

15 ability to determine compliance is important

16 in the determination of compliance.

17 So, being able to look at a label

18 or mark or number, a performance number on the

19 unit that would indicate whether it's

20 compliant or not is an essential part of being

21 able to determine compliance.

22 And the ease with which that can
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1 be done is important because if it's even the

2 last bit difficult I would submit that it may

3 not be done.

4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I'd

5 like to reflect back to Jordan's comments.

6 First of all, that I appreciate

7 the manufacturers are taking a look at it.

8 And you really boil it down to

9 saying is there a benefit that's larger than

10 cost. 

11 And I'd offer a little bit of

12 empiricism, anecdotal though it be. I am an

13 occasional user of the AHRI database. I found

14 Eric's briefing yesterday very helpful.

15 It is still something that is a

16 learned skill and one will make a lot of

17 mistakes the first time or the only time one

18 tries to access this. And it will be

19 frustrating.

20 It is -- if the goal is for

21 consumers to be easily able to verify the

22 performance as indicated by the label I do not
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1 believe that that's the tool.

2 Similarly, I've spent a lot of

3 time working with the various forms of

4 nomenclature used for coding model numbers by

5 all of the manufacturers and that has an awful

6 lot of ambiguities that have good reasons. 

7 Each manufacturers use different coding

8 sequences. So, I'm a little concerned about

9 that.

10 From these experiences and from

11 the repeated exercises in frustration of not

12 only trying to learn these but trying to

13 master the incredibly complex second and third

14 generation programmable thermostats I'm not

15 sure the manufacturers always on their

16 technical sides have real clear insight into

17 the limitations of the consumer. 

18 So for those reasons I do feel

19 that having a visible permanent label would

20 have value. But I don't know -- have

21 significant value. But I don't know that it

22 has value that's greater than its cost.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right, so this is

2 Doug. So at least we have, you know, the

3 manufacturers will look at it.

4 Perhaps you could help us

5 understand how best to quantify the benefit so

6 we can come back to you with some thoughts on

7 -- to help you with your analysis. 

8 Because you know you have a number

9 of votes here so we want to make sure that we

10 have an ability to persuade those votes if we

11 decide to go in a certain direction.

12 So, is there any way that you can

13 help us understand what would illuminate to

14 you how to quantify the benefit to the

15 Department or the consumers by being able to

16 look at something.

17 It seems to me as just -- on a

18 verbal level it's very helpful. But I want to

19 give you something better for your analysis so

20 you can go back to your managers and they can

21 make an informed decision on how they think

22 you should go. So that's very helpful.
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1 MR. SACHS: You know, if I might

2 amplify one piece of this. There are a

3 variety of approaches encompassed with this

4 idea of permanent label ranging from a change

5 to the nameplate which may be inside the unit

6 and is all in microtype, at least to my eyes,

7 to large signs wrapping around the condensing

8 unit saying "Not legal for sale in Florida." 

9 And these various alternatives

10 have various impacts on the consumers and

11 widely vary in cost for the manufacturers. 

12 I think you should challenge us to

13 try to coalesce around what's the least

14 intrusive that would be effective.

15 MR. RAWALD: I agree, Harvey, that

16 sounds like a great endeavor for you to lead

17 the group in in a homework assignment.

18 MR. SACHS: I think I'm going to

19 bounce that one upwards to Elizabeth.

20 (Laughter)

21 MR. RAWALD: I mentioned over the

22 break that we also talked to the installers. 
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1 And an idea that Laura Degitz from Navigant

2 put forward was not only a label from

3 manufacturers, but is there any sort of desire

4 to have a label on the product from the

5 installer. So, to identify installed by, you

6 know, this company. 

7 So if we knew that, hey, this is

8 actually a non-compliant unit we then actually

9 could link it back to who installed that. As

10 opposed to relying upon somebody five years --

11 remembering, oh yes, that was installed by

12 this company. We're able actually to place a

13 label on the unit.

14 What I'm talking to Charlie

15 McCrudden about is apparently that there is a

16 practice in the industry of using some sort of

17 magnet that the servicing technician will put

18 on some way.

19 But is there some sort of desire

20 or some sort of efficacy in having a

21 requirement that the installer have some sort

22 of more permanent label placed on the outside
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1 of the condensing unit to indicate that

2 they're the one that installed that so we know

3 who would be the bearer of responsibility for

4 any sort of actual installation of a

5 noncompliant product?

6 MR. EISNER: I have a question

7 about that because I was wondering about that

8 also. Because I always -- when somebody comes

9 in to do something in my house I do find that

10 magnet or stick around my unit afterwards

11 because they want me to call them for repairs.

12 But, if I know it's illegal to

13 sell it in that house am I going to put my

14 label on there that I installed this illegal

15 unit? Charlie?

16 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is

17 Charlie with ACCA. I think you've hit on

18 something which is how do you set an

19 enforcement policy for a part of an

20 enforcement policy, which is how would you

21 compel contractors to put that on.

22 I think what I'm going to do, and
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1 I'll take an assignment back to my folks and

2 see what is the prevalence of applying that

3 magnet.

4 You know, I know a lot of

5 contractors do because, you're right, they do

6 want you to call. 

7 And one of the things we talked

8 about though is that you may have a situation

9 where someone calls a different contractor who

10 comes in and then they remove the magnet of

11 their competitor and put their own magnet up

12 because they want you to call them.

13 So then now we're getting into

14 sort of like, well, how would you make a

15 permanent magnet, or a permanent label or

16 sticker.

17 And I'm fascinated by details. 

18 And I'm fascinated by the FTC labeling

19 requirements which talk about the adhesive

20 that must be used. It talks about the paper

21 stock that's required on manufacturers. And

22 it's amazing to me what goes into this.
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1 I don't want to go down that road

2 because I don't think we want to have to

3 figure out adhesive, durability of the label

4 itself, size.

5 I mean, if you look at the regs it

6 talks about the font size. Everything on that

7 FTC label is there. Nothing else can be

8 there. The only I think sort of voluntary

9 mark might be the energy guide label if you

10 chose to put it on your FTC label.

11 But I'd like to go back and talk

12 to my folks. Look at the prevalence of the

13 magnets. I think there may be something to

14 this. If it's feasible and cost-effective and

15 can sort of lead to compliance.

16 I think it won't be a problem for

17 a compliant contractor who's already putting

18 something on there saying I'm, you know, I'm

19 the one who installed this, make sure you call

20 me for any service.

21 But if it could be one of these

22 things where we're going after the good and
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1 allowing the bad to still elude. But let me

2 go back and talk to folks about it.

3 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug real

4 quick before John Hurst.

5 So, I guess, once again I

6 definitely understand the theme of we don't

7 want to overburden those compliant. We don't

8 want to make the cost of compliance outweigh

9 the benefits of non-compliance. That's always

10 a problem, right? So we want to make sure

11 we're very careful with that.

12 But what I think would be an

13 interesting data point to hear from your folks

14 is if they showed up at a place and they had

15 a name would they be more likely to call up

16 the number and say I know who it was that

17 installed that bad unit.

18 Because from the Department's

19 point of view if I got a report of a bad unit

20 being installed that had the name of the guy

21 that installed it too that's a lot more

22 valuable and a lot more useful for me.
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1 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And I understand

2 that. This is Charlie with ACCA again.

3 I would say that our members are

4 interested in the process, or a way to make

5 that call. They're frustrated by non6 compliance because they're the ones who get

7 beat and underbid. 

8 And I think if there was a simple

9 and easy way to drop a dime on a non-compliant

10 contractor that would be helpful.

11 MR. EISNER: Is there a simple

12 technology whereby you set the unit up but it

13 won't start until you punch a code? Like your

14 tax code number or something?

15 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I'm going to let

16 the manufacturers caucus on that one.

17 (Laughter)

18 MR. EISNER: John?

19 MR. HURST: John Hurst with

20 Lennox. I like the idea. I'm concerned,

21 though, that the contractor, like Chuck's

22 company, they'll have a sticker or they'll
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1 have a magnet. 

2 They're doing the right thing. 

3 They want a relationship with the consumer. 

4 I think back to a time 10 years

5 ago when my house was robbed. They obviously

6 broke the law. They didn't leave a business

7 card.

8 So, again, I get back to a lot of

9 these are great ideas but the people that will

10 comply are the people in the chain that are

11 doing the right thing.

12 And so I also think to the new

13 construction, kind of the blow and go that's

14 not looking for a relationship long-term with

15 the consumer, they're not a servicing

16 contractor, they're a new construction

17 contractor, they're not putting up a magnet or

18 a sticker either.

19 The other comment I wanted to make

20 is around the labeling and the font size and

21 the stickiness of the gum that affixes it.

22 We have units that are exposed to
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1 the elements. And I go out in my own

2 backyard. The data plate is, I don't know the

3 technical term, but it's rugged-ized. It will

4 stay there for a long, long time.

5 And then there's other stickers

6 that are on there that have weathered with the

7 wind and the rain and the sunshine that we get

8 in Texas. 

9 So, you know, if we think about

10 this and you want additional information maybe

11 the data plate -- and again, we have homework

12 to do. Maybe the data plate is the place that

13 you put it.

14 And I don't know how much real

15 estate is on there. I've got to go back and

16 look at it as well. 

17 And you might say well, geez, a

18 condensing unit's huge. But a good chunk of

19 it's louvered. And it's hard to put stickers

20 on louvers. So, you know, we've got to go

21 back and investigate that.

22 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with
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1 Allied. And just to add a little clarity, the

2 FTC energy guide label is not one of those

3 labels that will stand up to weather very

4 well. Over a fairly short period of time it's

5 going to become illegible. And John is right.

6 There's also, for the unit data

7 plate there are safety requirements on where

8 you can place that label. 

9 So, all of that has to be taken

10 into consideration as we're looking at this

11 also.

12 MR. EISNER: In terms of the life

13 of the label is there any time period after

14 which it's relatively useless to take

15 enforcement action? In other words, if it was

16 installed five years ago, is that something

17 where it's effective to take enforcement as

18 opposed to trying to find it right away within

19 the first year or some time period?

20 MR. RAWALD: That's really more a

21 question for me. And so I think we have a

22 statute of limitations question there, like
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1 how old the installation would be. So there

2 are other issues that would kind of percolate

3 from that.

4 So, but I think that for the life

5 of the unit, it's going to have the same SEER

6 value, right, so as I understand it it's not

7 going to suddenly change from a 13 SEER to a

8 14 SEER. 

9 So, I think the life of the unit

10 would be the ultimate goal of having it be

11 indicating what its performance is.

12 I know there's a question from Ray

13 and also from Chuck here for a bit now.

14 MR. ELLIS: This is Ray from LEC. 

15 I was just thinking on the positive side for

16 the manufacturers as -- and I don't even begin

17 to understand the nuances of good advertising. 

18 But as the DOE starts in its

19 enormous educational campaign to tell

20 everybody across the country what their air

21 conditioning unit should be I would think that

22 it would be an opportunity for the
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1 manufacturer to say, hey, look at us. All

2 you've got to do is look here and this is a

3 SEER 14 rated unit. Buy from us.

4 You know, I would think it would

5 be a positive thing.

6 As a Carrier customer myself I

7 find it, you know, I know our unit out back

8 it's not very easy to find the information. 

9 You've really got to look really hard.

10 And I was just thinking of, I know

11 John Hurst had said something about

12 everybody's got an iPhone. You know -- a lot

13 of people do and I understand that. But there

14 are a lot of elderly people across the country

15 that don't and don't want one. 

16 And so, you know, to think that

17 they will be able to go in and look up this

18 data readily on a computer or something else

19 is really I think a far reach. 

20 But I totally appreciate what

21 you're saying.

22 MR. HURST: John Hurst with
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1 Lennox. The other challenge that I have kind

2 of along those lines. My dad's 86 and he's an

3 engineer and he's fairly well versed. And he

4 will bird-dog things. So he might be an

5 unusual case.

6 My mother on the other hand could

7 walk out back and see her unit 14 SEER, 28

8 SEER, 4 SEER. She wouldn't -- I don't think

9 the average consumer even knows what they're

10 looking at.

11 My mother does know that she's in

12 the State of Virginia right now. She does

13 know that. And my kids know that they're in

14 the State of Texas. So, to the point of SEER

15 ratings and looking at serial numbers, you

16 know, maybe an accommodation.

17 Again, we've got to go back. Real

18 estate is really difficult, but this unit is

19 compliant for the North and it's not for the

20 South. 

21 I'm in Texas. Pretty sure that's

22 in the South. Now, it gets to be a little
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1 more difficult when you're along the border

2 but we may have to consider simplicity where

3 the average consumer, or the average building

4 inspector, or the average dealer can look at

5 the box or look at the unit and say this is

6 going in the wrong place. And not have them

7 have to go through some technology search to

8 do it.

9 And so my commitment is to go back

10 with my counterparts and look for ways that we

11 can do this and make it easy.

12 MR. EISNER: I think we have our

13 homework assignment on this one and I'm

14 wondering whether it's time to turn onto

15 another issue.

16 MR. RAWALD: If I could just --

17 this is Doug. I do want to appreciate that

18 what John said to me thinking of narrowing the

19 aperture, right? Because the concern is 13

20 SEER units ending up in the South.

21 And so it's possible for us to

22 think about in the Harvey and Elizabeth task
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1 whether all we really want is to have those 13

2 or below-14 SEER units bear a recognizable,

3 distinct indication that they shouldn't be

4 somewhere else. 

5 And would such a limited request

6 actually bear less cost to the manufacturer. 

7 Or would it be more difficult to have a

8 different kind of label for only those

9 products. Something to think about as far as

10 when you're thinking about your cost analysis.

11 MR. ELLIS: Yes, one last thing or

12 two on the installer issue.

13 Like the unit installed in my

14 house, I'll just use that as an example. The

15 guy that did it, Mercury Controls, he took a

16 magic marker and wrote his name and phone

17 number on inside and outside and they're both

18 readily available. And I can tell you that

19 the weather in Montana is pretty severe

20 sometimes. So it, you know, it can be done. 

21 And I think it just -- again, we

22 might be punishing the good players as John
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1 keeps bringing out, but if you can't find a

2 label on the unit as a homeowner it may be

3 that that will in itself start to raise flags

4 on whether or not the unit is compliant.

5 And believe me, don't

6 misunderstand that people across the country

7 are starting to take note of these sorts of

8 things. We're finding real changes in the

9 utility industry that 20 years ago, 10 years

10 ago we would never have thought would take

11 place.

12 And it's kind of resonating from

13 the homeowner and what they want. It's really

14 changing the paradigm for us and the model

15 that we had used for a hundred years.

16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

17 AHRI. I guess to go back to Doug, an ID to

18 focus just on those non-compliant units, the

19 13 SEER units.

20 But how would you address the

21 Southwest? Because a unit that would be

22 eligible to be sold in the South might not be
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1 in the Southwest.

2 MR. RAWALD: No, Karim, I think

3 you raise a good issue. So I know Karen was

4 waiting to talk too before. And Chuck has

5 been ignored for a little while here.

6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with

7 Rheem again. And you know, I still struggle

8 with whether we want this on the unit. 

9 Because the average homeowner, I mean if you

10 look at the FTC label today it's got the

11 states and it says where it's involved, where

12 that unit can be sold. 

13 And if we as a manufacturer have

14 to put another 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper in our

15 installation instructions that repeats that

16 information to me that's going to be much more

17 useful than my 83-year-old mother walking out

18 to the unit and getting down. Most of you

19 have seen what the nameplate looks like on a

20 unit. 

21 And putting South, North, or

22 Southwest, I fail to -- nobody even knows what
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1 those states are except for most of us in the

2 room. They don't know what encompasses that

3 area.

4 So, while -- is that really the

5 most effective use for the homeowner to look

6 at?

7 You know, when I have a problem

8 with my refrigerator I don't go pull it out

9 from the wall. I go to my use and care manual

10 that I got with my refrigerator and I look at

11 how I, you know. 

12 So let's be careful what we're

13 asking for because I'm not sure putting that

14 on the nameplate is really going to get the

15 homeowner much assurance versus a map. And

16 remember that FTC label. It clearly says

17 where that unit can and cannot be sold.

18 MR. GIBBONS: Karen, you said

19 installation instructions. You meant

20 homeowner --

21 MS. MEYERS: Homeowner.

22 MR. GIBBONS: The homeowner
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1 manuals that we all ship with --

2 MS. MEYERS: The use and care

3 guide. I forget what we call it. Yes, the

4 homeowner --

5 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from

6 Carrier.

7 MS. MEYERS: That's correct. And

8 that to me is what's going to help. 

9 I mean, they're getting the FTC

10 label already, or they will in January because

11 we're going to be required to.

12 I mean, I just ask everyone to

13 think is a more effective way not putting

14 something in the homeowner instructions so

15 people don't have to walk out to the unit and

16 look at it. It's just a question I think

17 everyone needs to consider.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

19 I think the FTC label is really good. 

20 My question is just whether or not

21 whoever is coming to look at the unit is going

22 to be seeing the FTC label or not. And if the
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1 carton's gone which is most likely going to be

2 the case it's not going to be there to be

3 seen.

4 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White

5 with PHCC. I guess I've got a laundry list.

6 I thank John for his kind comments

7 about my business, but linking it to your

8 house getting robbed shortly thereafter. 

9 (Laughter)

10 MR. WHITE: And you want to force

11 my company to advertise on everybody's unit. 

12 Gee, that's a terrible thing. 

13 I think a lot of contractors do

14 that. There are some people that don't. But

15 Charlie is right that many times the next guy

16 puts his sticker over your sticker. I've seen

17 a lot of units where there's three, four, five

18 stacked up. Because I don't want you calling

19 the other guy. I'm going to keep blotting out

20 the names. I mean, it's just kind of how it

21 works.

22 I think that if we do have
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1 whatever requirement that a contractor put a

2 sticker on you are going to have the adhesive

3 and the font size and it's just going to have

4 to be that way.

5 If the contractor is responsible

6 for putting it on there there's -- unless the

7 consumer, unless somebody goes out and looks

8 and makes sure that the right contractor put

9 the right sticker on I could still create a

10 sticker for McCrudden Air Conditioning and put

11 it on there and I put it in but everybody is

12 going to call him.

13 So, I mean there are opportunities

14 for -- no matter how you slice this there's

15 opportunities to cheat the system.

16 Something I'd like to throw out

17 which applies to this a little bit but not

18 necessarily is something I'm going to steal

19 from my NATE committee work.

20 We consider test questions for

21 technicians related to the industry. And so

22 we come up with some rather interesting and
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1 obscure things.

2 One of the rules we try to live

3 by, we call it the 80/80 rule. Will 80

4 percent of the technicians have a reasonable

5 expectation of seeing this 80 percent of the

6 time?

7 And so you can vary those words a

8 little bit and you can vary the percentages a

9 little bit, but it's a way to kind of quantify

10 what is reasonable in some of these

11 discussions, that I can ask for particularly

12 difficult, obscure things, but is that really

13 reasonable. 

14 And a lot of the things we've

15 discussed here I think fall into the -- yes,

16 that's pretty reasonable. But maybe there's

17 some issues with doing it one way or another.

18 I think we have a commitment from

19 a lot of people around the table to talk to

20 their respective parties. I guess I would

21 like to suggest that even though I don't --

22 I'm not a manufacturer and they make the label
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1 and they stick it on the box and do all that,

2 they have to do a label anyway. 

3 So, I think it would be fair to

4 say labeling is at least in the easy quadrant. 

5 Maybe not all the way at the top end of it,

6 but it's going to be on the easy side, and I

7 think it's going to be effective, and I think

8 it's important. 

9 So if we could kind of quantify

10 that. We know we need to do something with

11 it. We know it's got to get ironed out a

12 little bit. But I think it's going to be easy

13 and effective. And maybe we can think about

14 it that way and move on.

15 MR. EISNER: One more comment.

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I

17 just want to bring up things I think are

18 factual about the question of labels.

19 One of them is that it's easy to

20 disparage the express stipulation of font

21 size, color and everything else. 

22 But that's actually a protection
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1 for everybody in the industry. It says if you

2 do it this way which is a spec you can give

3 the printer you're not going to get beat up. 

4 And it's some standardization.

5 So, when I first saw that it was

6 last year in another negotiation outside of

7 DOE on a water heater issue that at least one

8 of the firms, heater and air conditioning, was

9 also represented in. And it was considered

10 for that product line -- I'm not saying that's

11 at all true for this one -- was considered

12 that a warning label about installations was

13 a relatively easy thing to do on the spectrum

14 from impossible to oh yes, no problem.

15 So, just want to offer those two

16 things as a little bit of the outsider's view

17 inside, looking into what I've seen, and a

18 little bit of a comment on labels. End of

19 rant.

20 MR. EISNER: Again, my thought is

21 it's time to move on because we've got to get

22 some information back from the manufacturers
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1 who did say they would like to look at this

2 more over the weekend.

3 So with that, again in terms of

4 where we are, I believe we're still on number

5 1. I would ask whether anyone still wants to

6 pursue the idea of (a) luminescence, or have

7 we agreed that that might not be possible

8 because it would require FTC to make a change? 

9 Or do we want to talk about that issue a

10 little more?

11 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I'm

12 ready to move past that suggestion. I don't

13 think it's something that the Department can

14 really get behind.

15 But I did want to point out that

16 there was a hope that some folks would take

17 back as homework for a long-term project kind

18 of designing what would be the most effective

19 FTC label to meet everyone's needs. And maybe

20 towards the end of the negotiation bring it

21 back to the group.

22 So I don't know if some folks want
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1 to volunteer to be doing that, or if we just

2 want to trust someone is going to take up that

3 charge.

4 And Karim raised his hand in the

5 back as saying he wants to at least work on

6 that somewhat.

7 MS. MEYERS: What's the time-line?

8 MR. RAWALD: So, we have a meeting

9 scheduled for late September. I think if we

10 could bring something back for that meeting

11 that would be probably the most useful thing.

12 And if you have something as a

13 working product and you want to bring it to

14 the group and we can circulate it among the

15 group, possibly give it to Amy and she could

16 forward it around to folks to look at in

17 preparation for that meeting would be an idea.

18 And I guess it doesn't need to be

19 anything graphical as much as it needs to be

20 an idea. But if you want to put together a

21 graphic idea that's always more helpful. 

22 But I mean, just something that
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1 gives us a kind of sense of here's what we

2 think would be the most helpful thing to

3 suggest to the FTC long-term for conveying the

4 information we think is important.

5 MR. EISNER: That gets us to

6 number 2, tear-off labeling mailed in by

7 manufacturer, distributors, contractors. 

8 Anybody want to state the case for this?

9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I've

10 put a lot of thought into it and I just --

11 from the point of view of just a concern of

12 being buried in information that may not be

13 all that useful for us from an enforcement

14 point of view.

15 I get what Gary is saying that

16 this could be a large deterrent value. I

17 just, from our point of view it might be an

18 overload of information that's not going to be

19 all that useful from my perspective. From

20 being able to enforce things.

21 Now, encouraging compliance is a

22 different issue. And I know Gary has talked
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1 about that at length. 

2 But from my perspective I would

3 have a hard time recommending that kind of

4 course to the Department given just the

5 overwhelming amount of information I'd

6 probably get from it.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

8 I appreciate the burden, but if the Department

9 doesn't know where these air conditioners are

10 installed how is it ever possibly going to be

11 able to fulfill its responsibility to assure

12 compliance through some targeted audit effort?

13 MR. EISNER: Can I ask a question

14 here again in terms of data from your work? 

15 Do you believe that a tear-off label where

16 there is no way you can force compliance with

17 that by the purchasers or installer will be

18 mailed in in a case where it's illegal? Is

19 there data to show you'll still find out about

20 it?

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, to respond

22 to that I would suggest that if the chain from
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1 the manufacturer of the product to the

2 installation address is broken because someone

3 failed to send in the card, then that would be

4 a cause for investigation.

5 MR. EISNER: Explain what you mean

6 by that. Are you saying we would put a burden

7 on the manufacturer to provide us with a trace

8 to the distributor and a requirement on the

9 distributor, et cetera, and then we could find

10 where the chain got broken?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, precisely. 

12 Each stage in the channel, or player in the

13 channel, the manufacturer, the distributor,

14 the retailer, contractor, installer who was

15 last to touch it at the point of installation

16 in my mind would be obligated to tear off

17 their piece of the label, write down the

18 pertinent information and send it in.

19 And if the chain is broken, that

20 is to say for every manufactured product there

21 is not an installation address because someone

22 along the way failed to send it in then that
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1 would be a cause to investigate who didn't do

2 their part. And that would be a breach of

3 compliance.

4 MR. EISNER: Do you want to talk

5 about whether you could handle this?

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, we can -- just

7 one more quick comment.

8 You know, we can dispense with

9 this idea of postcards. But I would suggest

10 that if we do there is going to be no way with

11 certainty that we will be able to determine

12 compliance in any case that we might choose to

13 audit.

14 MR. EISNER: I'm not disagreeing

15 with that. I raised a question yesterday. 

16 Somebody gave the number, I think it was John,

17 21 million units would have this tag. 

18 This tag would have multiple parts

19 to it. So 21 million times however many

20 parts, 4 or 5, being mailed in. I question

21 whether they can handle that kind of data. I

22 also question the cost of mailing in, the 21
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1 million times whatever.

2 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I

3 think the number was actually 7 million

4 products times 3 because we have 3 labels. So

5 it was 21 million labels total.

6 But I would want to narrow the

7 aperture because what we'd really want the

8 label to be on would be those 13 SEER units. 

9 So we wouldn't need to have such a label on 14

10 SEER and above. 

11 So, it would be a smaller group. 

12 So I guess there's at least that

13 consideration.

14 In some way what Gary is trying to

15 do which I appreciate from my point of view is

16 give me a tool to investigate.

17 And so what it might be best to do

18 is to table dismissing this idea until we see

19 what kind of tools everyone else is able to

20 give me on the table. 

21 You know, if other folks are able

22 to say I'm pulling up these resources that
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1 will eliminate the need for Doug to have such

2 an onerous process that might alleviate Gary's

3 concern and help me feel more comfortable

4 saying, okay, I think we'll come to the table

5 with ideas for things that I can use to track

6 shipments that would meet my needs.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

8 I totally agree, Doug. I have proposed a very

9 onerous kind of last resort solution here.

10 If we can find something that is

11 workable that's quicker, easier, better that

12 would be great.

13 MR. EISNER: Anybody else want to

14 talk about this?

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And

16 just as an addendum, a reminder that Gary is

17 in a state which is Southwest which has the

18 EER requirement. And that's because of peak

19 load concerns, particularly critical peak load

20 concerns. 

21 So, this brings us back to Karim's

22 request that we not ignore the particular
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1 issues associated with the Southwest units as

2 opposed to the Southern units.

3 And I have no idea how to do this,

4 but I'm starting to try to think about it.

5 MR. RAWALD: So I guess with that

6 it sounds like we're comfortable punting on

7 this one for awhile and see what else the

8 group can come up with on investigative tools.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Tracking chip

10 on units. Radio frequencies coming off labels

11 could be problematic. RFID chips. Does

12 somebody want to make the argument for this

13 being on the list?

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Was this your

15 idea?

16 MR. EISNER: I'm not going to make

17 the argument for it though.

18 MR. RAWALD: And that's Charlie

19 McCrudden pointing to Neil as our facilitator.

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And

21 with all due respect I think that for our

22 purposes the CR label is an easier thing to
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1 do. 

2 I do not know, however, if that

3 label can be individualized down to serial

4 number level as opposed to model level.

5 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. When

6 you say the CR label you mean the discussion

7 we had before?

8 MR. SACHS: The iPhone imaging

9 labels.

10 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

11 MR. SACHS: QR. Excuse me, I'm

12 sorry. Don't tell my son I said that.

13 MR. EISNER: I'm learning more

14 about your families and your individual

15 states' weather than I thought I would learn

16 in this kind of a meeting. Everybody's got

17 some great stories to tell.

18 QR codes I think the little thing

19 this big can store lots of bits of

20 information.

21 MR. WHITE: They can store lots

22 but somebody has to be there and deal with it.
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1 I mean, the RFID chip is

2 interesting. Feasible? Probably not. 

3 Probably we have some leftover

4 Star Wars tracking satellites that maybe we

5 could make them track all these air

6 conditioners globally. DOE is part of the

7 government, maybe they can work on that on the

8 side. Just a thought.

9 (Laughter)

10 MR. WHITE: I mean, it's I think a

11 novel idea, but I'm not sure it's

12 implementable.

13 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. 

14 And it certainly would be a matter for me to

15 go back, talk with the lawyers. Because I

16 think I discussed before there are some legal

17 implications with DOE driving down the street

18 with a scanner, pulling into people's houses,

19 whether that's actually in some way an

20 unlawful invasion of their privacy. So we

21 have to look at that further.

22 I just don't know from an
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1 efficiency point of view if it's something

2 that we'd actually be able to implement

3 practically.

4 Once again, this would really only

5 be useful if the people who were looking at it

6 like the homeowner and the servicing

7 contractor were able to detect from the RFID

8 that it was wrong. And I think a label is

9 much simpler and much more cost-effective than

10 this concept would be.

11 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst

12 with Lennox. I did a little research on RFID

13 last night. It's a very effective tracking

14 product going through a distribution facility,

15 or a warehouse, or even in a retail

16 application where the product passes under or

17 around a scanner anywhere from 2 to 10 feet.

18 To get ranges of up to 300 feet, I

19 think 50 cents was tossed around yesterday,

20 requires battery backup to transmit further. 

21 So, the 50 cents becomes 50 cents plus the

22 cost of a battery. So I think before we even
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1 go down that route we'd have to understand

2 even the feasibility of the ranges involved.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. So this one

4 comes off the list? We get to communication,

5 down sales chain. First thing is DOE public

6 outreach and (a) is consumer homeowner

7 education. Who would like to start off on

8 this one?

9 MR. HURST: John Hurst again. 

10 Sorry. Up here I think we might want to call

11 it -- I can't see where you went. Where was

12 the outreach part? 

13 Yes, communication down the sales

14 chain. There is a lot of communication. As

15 a matter of fact I bet there was a lot of

16 communication yesterday from manufacturers to

17 distributors. I know I did. I think you did. 

18 I think you did too, John. 

19 I would just like to add that the

20 public outreach may be to the consumer from

21 the DOE. But we will do, manufacturers and I

22 think distributors and even contractors will
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1 do a lot of outreach as well. We already are

2 with our customers.

3 I'd just like it to be noted that

4 public outreach just doesn't mean the federal

5 government funding some public outreach, that

6 we'll do it through the chain as well and that

7 needs to be acknowledged.

8 MR. EISNER: Do we want to

9 acknowledge it or do we want to put something

10 in the rule about it?

11 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan Rocky. 

12 So, I don't think we need to put something in

13 the rule because under the discussion of the

14 prohibited act manufacturers are going to be

15 required to over-communicate this situation

16 through our distribution chain to contractors

17 on what's required.

18 We're going to do it by multiple

19 means, printed letters, webinars, meetings. 

20 We'll coordinate it through the trade

21 organizations like AHRI. We'll be involved,

22 you know, the other trade organizations
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1 involved here will all communicate as John was

2 talking about. 

3 So, I mean this is multifaceted. 

4 We're going to get to the point of 800

5 numbers, Twitter feeds, Facebook. I mean

6 everything that we can possibly think of to

7 communicate this to try to put the message

8 out.

9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I

10 think that Neil's last sentence was really

11 helpful. 

12 What we're looking for here is

13 what do we want to put in the regulation that

14 will require Department of Energy to do as far

15 as reaching out to the public. 

16 Understanding that folks are going

17 to do a lot of things that make sense from a

18 business point of view anyway, what things do

19 you want the Department to be required to do?

20 And then when I get an idea of

21 what those things are I can bring them back to

22 those people that would pay for them and see
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1 if they're willing to pay for them so I could

2 find out if I could vote for them.

3 So I need to understand what kind

4 of things do people envision the Department

5 needing to do in a public outreach campaign. 

6 That would be required by regulations such

7 that I would put it in a regulation the

8 Department will do X.

9 MR. EISNER: Let me suggest here

10 too that what -- if the final rule says here

11 what DOE will do, do you want in the preamble

12 to have DOE say DOE also expects that the

13 industry will do some of the following kinds

14 of things? And you just gave a very nice list

15 ending with "and explore other opportunities."

16 Do we want to put that up here now

17 to be in the preamble in addition to what

18 we'll talk about that should go in a rule? 

19 Because that would be helpful I think to say

20 that.

21 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

22 Rheem. I think part of the DOE outreach
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1 should also include some type of outreach to

2 contractors. 

3 Because you have contractors out

4 in the market that might buy from several

5 distributors. So they're not necessarily a

6 customer of anyone's.

7 And so I don't think you can put

8 the burden on the manufacturer or the

9 distributor to make sure he knows what the

10 rules are. 

11 But it is a rule and I think the

12 public outreach should not just say to

13 consumer, but should also make some attempted

14 effort to make sure contractors are aware of

15 the rules as well, especially since they're

16 the primary people who are going to be held

17 accountable for bad installations.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and

19 I'll make an ask of DOE. And that ask is that

20 you provide technical support and can seek

21 funding to support a PSA campaign to be

22 executed by environmental advocacy
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1 organizations. 

2 We have the regional energy

3 organizations in the Southwest, in Utah and

4 the Southeast. And the very large membership

5 organizations, NRDC and Sierra both come to

6 mind, who tend to be opinion leaders and can

7 help propagate these messages in the regions

8 which are going to be affected.

9 I'm trying to frame it in the form

10 of an ask of DOE. 

11 MR. RAWALD: So, Harvey, this is

12 Doug. I'm trying to make sure since you're

13 more familiar with government grant speech

14 which this sounds like it's going to be kind

15 of -- you're looking for that kind of money

16 for this to NGOs to put out the word. Is that

17 correct?

18 MR. SACHS: If that's the easiest

19 way to formulate it for this process that's

20 cool. I was trying to be a little bit

21 ambiguous, but a commitment to support

22 outreach campaigns in collaboration with --
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1 you can call them NGOs and that's probably as

2 good a term as any.

3 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary

5 for the California IOUs. In the context of

6 who might provide a public awareness campaign,

7 maybe utilizing DOE funding if that's

8 available, I think in California the

9 California Energy Commission would be the

10 entity of choice because it has an outreach

11 and awareness program for energy efficiency

12 within the state.

13 MR. EISNER: Let me ask if there's

14 any advantage to also considering whether

15 there are other governmental agencies that

16 would want to participate such as FTC and EPA. 

17 And whether they might have funding too. It

18 might even be more effective.

19 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with

20 HARDI. Doug, would it be possible for you to

21 bring back some details of the public outreach

22 that the Department did during the light bulb
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1 phase change-out campaign?

2 I recall seeing some ads during

3 that. So that maybe we could get a better

4 idea of what the Department did in that

5 instance and how much resources were devoted

6 to doing so.

7 MR. RAWALD: It's a good ask and I

8 have really no numbers or idea for what past

9 public outreach campaigns are on that. So

10 I'll go back and ask. And there may be

11 someone that I can even bring to the meeting

12 who would be smart to talk on what we've done

13 before.

14 What I can volunteer is that what

15 the Department does from an energy efficiency

16 enforcement point of view on a regular basis

17 is webinars for industry members all up and

18 down.

19 And so I think a webinar type

20 thing is certainly well within the area of a

21 reasonable ask, that we could put together

22 webinars.
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1 Now, how accessible that is to the

2 average person is the question. That might be

3 more available as a tool to use with the

4 contractors as opposed to the homeowners. 

5 But that's at least something

6 that's been done before and not unprecedented

7 and I don't think overly expensive. But I

8 can't speak for sure.

9 I'm just curious what other terms

10 or ways of delivering messages are folks

11 thinking of? Are we talking about mailers? 

12 Are we talking about commercials? Are we

13 talking about radio spots? Like, what are

14 people really envisioning as an effective way

15 of putting the message out to people that we

16 want to get the message to?

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is

18 Charlie with ACCA. I think -- we're talking

19 about a product that people aren't thinking

20 about buying until they have to. And that's

21 the reality.

22 So, you can spend a lot of time on
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1 mailers and TV ads, but unless you sustain it

2 for a long time, until someone has to make

3 that purchasing decision they may not --

4 unless it's sustained then it's just going to

5 essentially fall on deaf ears.

6 I think that we have on the energy

7 guide label already, and I don't want to talk

8 about changing the energy guide label, but we

9 have on the energy guide label this website

10 that a consumer or somebody, anybody can go to

11 which is productinfo.energy.gov which I think

12 links you to the CCMS which you can type in.

13 And I think there's something

14 instructive in that which is let's talk about

15 websites, something that DOE puts up and maybe

16 it's something that everyone can link to. You

17 know, it's a stand-alone website. I would

18 even suggest separating it out from the DOE

19 URL or give it its own URL so it's not sort of

20 lost in all the DOE stuff.

21 And I think what needs to be there

22 is information -- you know, we have
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1 information for the contractor, information

2 for the distributors, for the basic question,

3 and then information for the homeowners.

4 And I think the information for

5 the homeowner has to perhaps suggest or

6 explain why we now have regional standards. 

7 And sort of have DOE sort of essentially say

8 we did this because. And my experience with

9 other transitions and change-outs, contractors

10 get a lot of questions about why am I paying

11 more for this product. Because three weeks

12 ago my cousin bought the same product or a

13 similar product and now mine is this much more

14 expensive.

15 And that's important that that

16 information comes from DOE and not from the

17 contractor, and not from even ACCA even though

18 we do that. 

19 You know, when we saw spikes in

20 the price of refrigerants back in the

21 beginning of 2012 and 2013 we had to put out

22 what we call a comfort tool which is something
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1 that our members can take and put their logo

2 on. 

3 And they explained why the price

4 of refrigerant had gone crazy, and why now the

5 top-off that they paid $100 for last summer is

6 now $300. 

7 If that message though comes from

8 the government and it explains why this is

9 happening, then I think it legitimizes the

10 consumer's sense that this guy's not trying to

11 rip me off.

12 So, and that was -- I think that

13 message might have been in our comments back

14 in 2011 or '12, whatever it was. But I think

15 that's critical, yes.

16 MR. RAWALD: So, Charlie, to

17 follow up on that, would you envision then a

18 DOE-created handout that the contractor would

19 give out --

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Sure.

21 MR. RAWALD: -- to the consumer?

22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. With the DOE
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1 logo. And then possibly a little -- you know,

2 camera-ready with a little corner where the

3 contractor can put his logo on it, or maybe

4 the manufacturer puts their logo on it. I

5 don't know if they'd want to choose to do that

6 or not. But something that it's -- there's

7 sort of common ownership of what happened and

8 why this -- why you may see your equipment

9 more expensive.

10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And this is

11 Doug. So, Charlie, I do know a little bit

12 about logo usage from the Department's point

13 of view. So there are some tricky legal

14 issues with co-logoing together on the same

15 document. So we can look at that.

16 But I understand the ask about the

17 handout for the individual installers. We'll

18 take a look at that as well.

19 MR. ELLIS: Doug, this is Ray from

20 LEC. Also too, don't forget your influence --

21 I know you won't -- over TVA, Southwest Power

22 Authority and others that, you know. 
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1 And they usually serve a lot of

2 cooperatives. And there's some enormous

3 cooperatives in the South that serve 250,000

4 consumers or members, so households. And they

5 have a very close relationship with their

6 members. 

7 And like our utility we send a

8 letter out, a notification -- not a

9 notification, but a publication out every

10 single month. And we do -- several pages of

11 that is on energy efficiency. 

12 And so, you know, you can use your

13 influence over TV and others to try to pass

14 that message through the utility to get to

15 their members. 

16 And it's all about rates. Charlie

17 was talking about what's the end result. And

18 the savings ultimately is the fact that the

19 utility doesn't have to buy additional energy

20 to supply it for the households.

21 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt

22 Lattanzi at NORDYNE. In terms of reaching the
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1 contractor one thing that I find that many

2 contractors have in common, when they're

3 visiting a distributorship and they're out to

4 counter it's -- at almost every

5 distributorship I've ever walked into on the

6 counter is all sorts of trade literature,

7 publications, magazines. There's usually a

8 copy of the news. And there's regional

9 publications as well. 

10 I can't remember the name of the -

11 - somebody jump in here if you can remember

12 the name of it, but there's a regional

13 publication for the Southeast and different

14 states.

15 But it's very common for these

16 contractors while they're ordering equipment

17 or parts or whatever that they spend some time

18 at the counter on a stool flipping through

19 these publications.

20 So, in terms of reaching the

21 contractor that might be a good avenue to

22 either put something in these publications by
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1 the Department of Energy or just a pamphlet

2 from the Department of Energy right there on

3 the counter that the guy's got right in front

4 of him.

5 And then Karen mentioned this, but

6 from the perspective of manufacturing in our

7 websites, you know, NORDYNE.com or rheem.com

8 or whatever, I mean we certainly would be

9 willing to help with outreach and put

10 something on our websites that are commonly

11 visited by contractors and distributors as

12 well. And homeowners, exactly.

13 MR. ROCKY: So, Matt was referring

14 to a publication called HVAC Insider that has

15 regional magazines as well as a national

16 magazine. I think they have like

17 approximately 30 different versions that go

18 out, states or regions.

19 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, Bryan, that's

20 exactly -- this is Matt. That's the

21 publication I was thinking of.

22 And that's free to contractors and
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1 it's very common. And I think, and Chuck, you

2 can help elaborate on this, but a lot of these

3 guys spend some time and they pick up that

4 publication on a routine basis. It's free,

5 there's a stack of them on the counter and

6 it's right there in front of them.

7 MR. WHITE: Yes, Chuck White. 

8 That's true and most of the wholesalers or

9 distributors have bulletin boards where things

10 go up. Banners that can be put up behind the

11 counter that don't need a lot of detail but

12 have some attention-getting. 

13 SEER 14 in the South. You know,

14 you get their attention and it makes them ask

15 questions, gets them thinking about it. 

16 Anything to start pulling people into this

17 information.

18 I know PHCC, I'm sure ACCA. I

19 don't mean to speak for Charlie, but I'm sure

20 we will have lots of programs developed,

21 seminars. We'll have mailers. We'll have

22 lots of information going out to our
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1 contractor members to make sure. 

2 And it won't just be people in the

3 South because you have border issues. We have

4 contractor members that operate in multiple

5 states. We will pass this information along.

6 The other thing is the people who

7 write trade magazines, they're always looking

8 for copy. They need information to put out. 

9 So they would be more than happy to pick up on

10 these stories, pick up on this information. 

11 If we sent them any short blurb

12 about anything that happened at these meetings

13 it would be in the next edition.

14 MR. RAWALD: And I guess -- this

15 is Doug. I'd like to hear from Steve and

16 possibly from John, maybe John Hurst because

17 they have a distribution process too, about

18 the willingness or the ability to display kind

19 of the information from DOE in the local

20 distributor and how effective that would be.

21 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

22 Johnstone Supply. 
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1 Yes, we've already probably sent

2 out 500,000 pieces with regional standard

3 changes on it already. So, we have to explain

4 to the contractor why he's now buying that

5 equipment and why our inventory, you know, why

6 he has to pay more, number one. 

7 And we'll have to explain the 18-

8 month time lag and why they can buy it even

9 though the regulation says this time frame. 

10 So the settlement has to be communicated as

11 well.

12 We have put that out already

13 though. We're way ahead of this issue coming. 

14 I think I ran a mailer in August which has it. 

15 We would put your website obviously as a link

16 so they could get more information or at least

17 put that in the flyer.

18 So, we pretty much cover every

19 contracting company in the United States. 

20 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. 

21 So, like we talked about with Charlie, the

22 possibility of having a DOE piece of document
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1 that they would then hand out to their

2 customers. Would that be something

3 distributors would want as well? Something

4 that you could hand to your customers. 

5 Something official from DOE explaining what

6 the situation is?

7 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter from

8 Johnstone Supply. Yes, we would put mailers

9 in the stores if you produce them. Or

10 trifolds or whatever it is that you want to do

11 to communicate the message.

12 MR. EISNER: John?

13 MR. HURST: Very similar to what

14 Steve said we would have loyal customers that

15 we could -- if they transact business with us

16 online we could do banner ads. We could do

17 "Click here for further information." 

18 For over-the-counter customers,

19 customers that come to our locations and buy

20 across the counter, table tents, mailers,

21 flyers. We reach them in many different ways.

22 I think one thing that would be
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1 very helpful, I get a lot of "I heard such2 and-such from so-and-so who talked to their

3 rep from Rheem or Carrier or NORDYNE or

4 wherever. And I heard that Rheem's in a

5 meeting up in Washington. And there's a lot

6 of disinformation out there. 

7 So, I think in a very simple,

8 frequently asked questions format that would

9 be very helpful to contractors, where you

10 break it down and very simply explain real11 life examples that they would run into. 

12 That would be very effective

13 versus having five pages of a regulation

14 probably wouldn't do very well at the counter.

15 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from

16 Carrier. One of the key points Steve pointed

17 out was the grace period. 

18 Because I can see it now. There's

19 going to be a contractor comes in, it won't be

20 Chuck but it will be somebody else that says,

21 you know, I'm selling 13 SEER today and I'm

22 going to sell it next year. And you can buy
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1 it, Mr. and Mrs. Homeowner. 

2 But then Chuck does come in and

3 he's got a 14 SEER unit and he looks like he's

4 out of place.

5 Homeowner needs to understand the

6 grace period too, that it's a transition to

7 regional standards and not just a, well, I'll

8 say flushing of the old inventory but that

9 quite frankly is what it is.

10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And

11 so, I'd like to hear some suggestion on how

12 best to explain that. So maybe folks can

13 think about how best to message that.

14 I mean, I'm no marketing person. 

15 I'm sure that DOE has some people. How do you

16 message that particular issue, the grace

17 period? That seems a little bit more

18 difficult to explain to a consumer, why I

19 could buy one built December 29 but I can't

20 buy one built January 2. 

21 How come I didn't get that one? 

22 My distributor didn't have it? How is that
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1 fair to me? So can't you go with a guy a

2 little further away who might have that in his

3 warehouse?

4 So, how do we effectively message

5 that question without causing a lot of

6 consternation?

7 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

8 That's an issue. The old joke, how much are

9 eggs? Ten cents, five cents for cracked. 

10 Well, crack me a dozen.

11 It's a fact that's been set up. 

12 And if the product is in the warehouse it's

13 going to get sold through and there are going

14 to be people out there who -- there are going

15 to be some contractors out there that say,

16 well, okay, they have the stuff but I want to

17 sell 14.

18 But there are going to be others

19 that are going to try and move that as a sales

20 item. I would expect -- don't know, but I

21 would expect the SEER 13 stuff is going to be

22 out of those warehouses pretty quick.
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1 Given what happened when SEER 10

2 went to SEER 13, SEER 10 stuff went like

3 hotcakes at the end. My own personal

4 expectation is that stuff will be moved pretty

5 quickly and you'll be to manufacturer's date

6 after January 1. 

7 I don't know, I'm not a

8 manufacturer, I'm not a wholesaler, I'm not a

9 warehouser so I'm speaking a little out of

10 turn, but I would expect probably most

11 inventory of the common sizes will be depleted

12 well before the 18 months. Some oddball stuff

13 is going to still be floating around.

14 MR. DORIA: So, this is Jordan

15 with Ingersoll Rand. I agree fundamentally. 

16 I think that there is certainly the potential

17 for confusion here.

18 But I think the point you made is

19 a good one. And to put it into context for

20 people might be useful for people to say that

21 in a manner of speaking this grace period and

22 depletion of inventory is exactly what you had
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1 under a data manufacture-based approach which

2 is what they're all familiar with. It's just

3 that that approach is not going to continue in

4 perpetuity going forward. 

5 So, in many ways it's really just

6 that. But then beyond that you're going to

7 have this new paradigm of date of install. 

8 So, I mean, that doesn't answer the whole

9 question, but just trying to explain to people

10 that this grace period actually isn't that

11 unique in that regard.

12 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts, ideas

13 for this list?

14 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

15 Johnstone Supply. I'll take that as a

16 takeaway to come up with some language that

17 you could use that would possibly help you

18 with the homeowner, or explain that.

19 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I appreciate

20 that, Steve, because I think the grace period

21 is particularly tricky to explain to someone

22 given the implications on availability. 
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1 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter again,

2 Johnstone Supply. I don't think there's going

3 to be a big problem with it because even as I

4 sit here and put my taxpayer hat on I hope you

5 don't spend too much money on getting to the

6 consumer.

7 You know, you can do your

8 education piece and I would caution you to --

9 I don't know a homeowner that could tell you

10 what -- no offense to my manufacturer friends

11 here -- that could tell you what they have in

12 their house as a piece of equipment, or the

13 name brand of it. 

14 So, I mean, a once or a twice in a

15 lifetime purchase experience just doesn't --

16 it doesn't resonate with the consumer. So,

17 you know, I'd just caution you on that money.

18 That's why I don't see it being

19 too big a problem. Because even with an

20 education campaign I think it will be very

21 difficult to educate consumers on this issue,

22 or have any understanding of SEER. I can't
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1 imagine sitting there trying to explain it to

2 them. So, I think it would be very difficult.

3 MR. RAWALD: Yes, this is Doug. 

4 And so the thing I'm going to have to talk

5 with folks that spend money is how to justify

6 spending that money in a judicious and

7 targeted manner. So hearing from people what

8 you think is most effective is important.

9 And also thinking about the time

10 frame for doing such. Like, how long do we

11 really want to keep doing this. 

12 I mean, I don't want to mail it to

13 someone that they throw away and then a year

14 later they wish they had that mailer. So it's

15 a question of really trying to figure out what

16 the most effective way of spending money on

17 this kind of thing would be and how to do it. 

18 And so I appreciate the thoughts you guys have

19 offered so far.

20 MS. NOLL: Doug, this is

21 Elizabeth. Along the lines of the light bulb

22 campaign, which I think is worthwhile to see
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1 what DOE did there, as well you guys do

2 technical assistance to states for building

3 codes. 

4 So it might be worth looking into

5 that program in terms of what I know they do,

6 I had it pulled up, webinars and technical

7 assistance and outreach. And there's a number

8 of things that maybe someone in that program

9 could help.

10 MR. RAWALD: Okay, I'll look at

11 that.

12 MR. EISNER: Other ideas? Anybody

13 think -- are there any keywords missing from

14 the list under (a), 1(a)? 

15 All right, if not, anybody object

16 to our going onto the next issue? Why don't

17 we take a break for 10 minutes, come back and

18 start there?

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

20 matter went off the record at 10:56 a.m. and

21 resumed at 11:10 a.m.)

22 MR. EISNER: Okay, number 2 item
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1 on our list under communication is a DOE

2 database of contractors, et cetera. Anybody

3 want to make the case for that? Nobody's in

4 favor of that one? DOE database. Anybody

5 want to make an argument for it?

6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with

7 Rheem. I mean, I think that's a nice carrot

8 to put out there, but you know, I think we

9 need to understand more about how that would

10 work.

11 I mean, I think I actually need to

12 hear from Charlie and Steve on this, but I

13 think if I were a contractor and I had my name

14 on a government website that says essentially

15 I'm a good actor that that would have a

16 positive impact for a small business owner. 

17 So, it doesn't necessarily mean

18 that they're a good actor, but maybe they've

19 been through the training, or they've agreed

20 and they acknowledge, they understand it. So

21 I don't know. That's just kind of my initial

22 concept.
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1 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

2 with ACCA.

3 When I was thinking about this,

4 you know, sort of visualize this database or

5 what this would look like.

6 You know, if we're looking at

7 anywhere between say forty and one hundred

8 thousand, or however many thousands of

9 contractors there are out there I don't know

10 if that's manageable in a sense for you to

11 find -- I mean, is it true we're going to go

12 to this site looking to find the name of a

13 contractor. 

14 To be honest, I would prefer the

15 other, the opposite website which is the one

16 where if we ever figure out what the threshold

17 is for routine violators that to me would be

18 the more effective discouragement for a

19 contractor versus what do I get out of them

20 putting my name on there kind of situation.

21 And I just don't know if it's

22 manageable. I mean, I don't know database
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1 management well enough. I don't know what it

2 costs and I don't know what Doug thinks of

3 this type of database and whether you have the

4 authority or the capability.

5 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. I

6 have not asked the people who finance these

7 things if they are capable or willing of doing

8 such. And I don't want to get them too far

9 afield in looking until we feel -- gain some

10 momentum.

11 It's not an unprecedented thing

12 that we have though, because we have our

13 database of consumer and commercial products

14 and equipment which is in the millions and

15 millions of basic models being listed in that. 

16 So I think we could easily handle the number

17 of contractors.

18 And once again, narrowing the

19 aperture to those that would be in the regions

20 that we'd even care about. I don't think

21 there would be any basis for having folks who

22 are operating only in the North to even be
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1 signed up in this database. So we'd be

2 splitting off those folks from it entirely.

3 So, I think it's at least a

4 reasonable ask that I can make if folks

5 thought it could be of value to them.

6 When I proposed this idea on

7 Tuesday I was thinking of it almost as more

8 useful to the manufacturer and the

9 distributors in deciding who they're going to

10 deal business with rather than the consumer

11 side of things.

12 Because the manufacturer can look

13 at it and say, oh, I'm not going to deal with

14 distributor X because they're not on the list. 

15 They've got to make sure they do their thing

16 before I'm going to deal with them.

17 And just like distributor -- like

18 Steve could say well, I'm not going to deal

19 with Chuck this week because he's not on the

20 list. I want to make sure he's on the list

21 before I start selling stuff to him.

22 So I see it almost as more useful
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1 on that side of things than a check from the

2 industry point of view on who you're dealing

3 with. More from a consumer getting on it and

4 looking at it. That's probably how I'd

5 envision it being used more.

6 And that's completely translatable

7 to the current database we have. Because

8 while our database is overwhelming and I think

9 many consumers look at it and are overwhelmed

10 by information, many importers won't import

11 something until it's on there. So they

12 require the company that they deal with to

13 ensure their product is on there. 

14 Or a retailer won't stock that

15 product until it's on our database. So it's

16 being used by a lot of places that I didn't

17 initially visualize are using it. So I think

18 there's a lot of other possible utility to

19 this beyond the consumer end of things.

20 MR. DORIA: So, this is Jordan

21 with Ingersoll Rand. I understand and that's,

22 I think, an important distinction.
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1 I think the challenge with a

2 database that would essentially have what

3 we'll call all the good actors who have not

4 committed some kind of violation and have

5 signed on to some presumably code of conduct

6 is that ultimately it wouldn't get everybody,

7 right? Some simply would choose not to sign

8 up.

9 So, using the example that Doug

10 just gave that would mean that we're not doing

11 business with people who've simply chosen

12 potentially not to sign up.

13 I think if what we're actually

14 talking about is a tool for distributors and

15 OEMs to guide them in essentially who they

16 want to do business with Charlie's -- I won't

17 call it recommendation, but Charlie's point

18 that it would be easier to have just a list of

19 who's actually violated would be much better. 

20 And as an OEM I don't want to be

21 in a position where I need to determine who is

22 a violator. I want the Department to have
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1 made that determination and then we make our

2 business decisions accordingly.

3 Because otherwise we are put in

4 the position of both being the police and the

5 judge and I really don't want us to do that.

6 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And I

7 don't view those two items to be mutually

8 exclusive either. I mean, we could have both

9 in that there could be a threshold for having

10 someone who's certified themselves as

11 compliant and also when someone is found to be

12 a routine violator we of course publicize that

13 and then they fall off the good person list if

14 they were on there already. So there's a

15 possibility of having both. 

16 So I don't want to view them as

17 one or the other, or just putting out both

18 ideas and if there's some synergy for them

19 both we can consider them both together

20 possibly.

21 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White

22 with PHCC. I don't like the idea. I
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1 understand where you see the positives, I get

2 that. 

3 You're looking for the bad apples

4 by making a list of the good ones and you're

5 not -- they're not going to sign up. You are

6 effectively saying if you're not on my list

7 you can't work in this industry. 

8 So, you've effectively created a

9 national license whether you like to say it

10 that way or not. 

11 You are regulating commerce

12 whether you like to say it that way or not.

13 I think it's a real slippery slope

14 that -- it sounds great, but the net result is

15 a lot more intense than you think. And you

16 still haven't found what you're looking for.

17 Okay, if you know a good

18 contractor and you now know he exists and you

19 can find he did something wrong, you still had

20 to somehow find out he did something wrong

21 which is what you've got to do in the first

22 place for the other guys anyway. Somehow you
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1 have to figure out how to find out who did the

2 wrong things, not who did the right.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is

4 Doug. On Chuck's point, I think that's

5 absolutely correct. But this would not be a

6 tool for me helping to figure out who's

7 committing violations. 

8 What it would be a tool is for

9 helping the industry police itself in some way

10 because you know that the person you're

11 dealing with has at least said they're going

12 to play ball so you can limit who you're

13 dealing with.

14 And then also it's some way of an

15 educational campaign because it provides a

16 method by which we ensure those folks who have

17 signed up are aware of what the rules are. 

18 And so that's kind of how I would visualize it

19 working. 

20 And I am very interested in

21 hearing more from you folks as far as the

22 possible downsides to your industry by having
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1 such a control. Because I don't know what

2 kind of burdens it would place on the average

3 contractor. So I'd like to hear more about

4 that. I think I'm really curious about that.

5 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White

6 again. I would hazard that the wholesalers in

7 their respective areas know who their problem

8 children are. 

9 And at risk of litigation they

10 can't just cut them off unless there's like

11 really solid reason why you don't sell to

12 these people. They -- kind of everybody in

13 the picture sort of has their hands tied. As

14 long as you don't do something egregious you

15 kind of keep moving. 

16 And I don't know that I'm happy

17 about 100 percent of that but it's kind of a

18 fact of life.

19 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

20 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I

21 looked at Steve because I was curious if he

22 had some response to the intimation that
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1 distributors know who their problem children

2 are and couldn't cut off working with them if

3 they were refused to be on the list of

4 compliant contractors.

5 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

6 Johnston Supply. I mean, we want to do

7 business with everybody obviously. And as

8 long as they pay their bills and conduct

9 themselves accordingly when they're dealing

10 with our employees then we're going to sell

11 them.

12 And we do know most -- we don't

13 know most I would say at a store level, if I

14 got down to a store level and we have

15 different counter personnel that may rotate

16 over time. Or a customer may come in and have

17 his favorite and so they don't necessarily

18 know them all. 

19 I would say they know the majority

20 of those that purchase 80 percent of their

21 business I would say they know. They may not

22 have relationships with a contractor because
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1 he has a primary distributor in town, but he

2 may happen to walk into our store. And maybe

3 only does that a couple of times a year or

4 once. So as long as he has a contractor's

5 license we're going to look at that.

6 I think where you run into this

7 database problem, Doug, or list is that

8 there's a high turnover in this. And they can

9 go back and come back as another company. So

10 they can rename themselves and come back as

11 something else which happens quite frequently. 

12 I think that's the risk. 

13 There's just so much turnover. 

14 The data that I've seen on it is, you know,

15 startups, 80 percent of them fail in the first

16 year, 20 percent that are left, half of those

17 fail in the next 5.

18 MR. RAWALD: So, Steve, this is

19 Doug. If I hear you, there would be a problem

20 with how valid a list would be over any period

21 of time because there wouldn't necessarily be

22 -- it certainly wouldn't be a live database
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1 like AHRI certification directory. It would

2 be a regularly updated one.

3 So, whether -- how current that

4 information would be at any time, and whether

5 there would be any consequences for someone

6 reincorporating under a different name. If

7 they have to re-certify or go through that

8 process. That would be at least a burden to

9 them in some way.

10 So, the idea that has been floated

11 so far. I thought it interesting, Karen

12 voiced a possible interest in it. Does anyone

13 else find it interesting? Does anyone else

14 want me to push some buttons in the Department

15 and see if we can get any Department interest

16 in it? Or do you want to put it aside as a

17 thing we're not really interested in right

18 now? What's the sense of the group?

19 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I

20 actually do find it interesting, especially

21 from that last note you made on the education

22 aspect.
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1 I mean, if people are going to say

2 that they understand regional standards at a

3 very minimum you know who out there

4 understands what the law is. And that has

5 value.

6 But I think that, you know, you're

7 the one that made the comment yesterday about

8 you can't always say you're a dumb person

9 forever, so. I think there is value. That

10 was John saying.

11 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt

12 Lattanzi with NORDYNE. Doug, I think it's

13 something we should continue to explore and

14 look into further. I find it interesting as

15 well. 

16 Off the top of my head I think

17 it's a pretty good idea.

18 MR. EISNER: What about someone

19 who's had three violations? If it's that easy

20 to go out of business and go across the street

21 and start all over again what are you going to

22 do about the one who has two and then just
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1 reconstitutes himself or herself across the

2 street under a new name? Does that mean you

3 don't know yet?

4 MR. RAWALD: Oh, I thought you

5 were asking a hypothetical question. 

6 So, we don't have an answer to

7 that question obviously. So we have to think

8 through what we'll consider, how that tag will

9 be borne. Is it borne by the individual, or

10 by the company? You know, this moniker of

11 violator.

12 The question of how, if we have

13 unique violations, do they follow that person

14 for the rest of their career? 

15 There's a lot of I think nuance to

16 work out with that. I think that we haven't

17 even peeled that back at all. So, I think

18 that's something more for the group to

19 explore.

20 But I'm hearing at least some

21 people that are interested in the idea. 

22 Possibly what I could do is I'll talk to some
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1 folks at the Department about the Department's

2 willingness to even engage in this and come

3 back with you folks next week about that.

4 And if Charlie and Chuck could

5 think through and kind of what would be the

6 barriers to this that would make this really

7 not work for our folks because this is who it

8 would be affecting most.

9 But also, we're talking about

10 possible distributors as well. Because

11 they're in the statute as far as this routine

12 violation. 

13 So Steve, and possibly you can

14 talk to Jon and think about whether your folks

15 would be willing to be on a list like that or

16 not, how that would affect you folks as well. 

17 Because we haven't talked about

18 that. We've looked at it mostly from a

19 contractor and dealer point of view, but

20 distributors are in the statute so I want to

21 make sure that we consider that as well.

22 MR. EISNER: Is everybody ready to
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1 put this off or do they want to say more about

2 it?

3 COURT REPORTER: Can you repeat

4 that, sir?

5 MR. EISNER: I'm asking if

6 everybody is willing to put this off, or

7 whether people want to have more discussion on

8 the subject. Seeing an overwhelming support

9 for neither I'll just make the arbitrary

10 decision we'll move on.

11 Okay, training to contractors,

12 distributors on compliance with regional

13 standards with the question provided by -- any

14 comments on that? Anybody want to make an

15 argument for it?

16 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, this is Matt

17 Lattanzi at NORDYNE. I think all of the

18 manufacturers, at least and for sure NORDYNE

19 does. 

20 We provide various types of

21 training for both distributors and

22 manufacturers. 
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1 We have one venue, we refer to it

2 as a luncheon where the distributor brings in

3 contractors, feeds them a little lunch, and

4 then we do a webinar with a live question and

5 answer session.

6 I certainly would be willing to

7 sign up to provide that type of training for

8 contractors and distribution on regional

9 standards.

10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So I

11 want to keep the focus on the idea of having

12 a regulation requiring such training and doing

13 it. And so whether there's interest in that. 

14 As opposed to kind of like a moral obligation

15 or a business obligation.

16 And I think I hear Matt saying

17 that he'd be willing to at least have it be

18 written in the regulation that NORDYNE would

19 do that. Is that correct? We'll explore that

20 topic further.

21 MR. LATTANZI: I guess I'd

22 probably like to take that back home as far as
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1 it being written into the regulation. I'd

2 like to reserve the right to think about that. 

3 I see a few people shaking their heads in

4 agreement.

5 But it certainly is something that

6 I think we can do.

7 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from

8 Carrier. I would agree with that. I would

9 like a lot more detail on frequency and extent

10 and a lot more detail on what training entails

11 and all that.

12 MR. EISNER: I would suggest that

13 some of this would be for you to say here's

14 what we'd be willing to live with in a rule. 

15 We would do it once a year, or we would do it

16 as needed determined by X, Y and Z. 

17 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt with

18 NORDYNE. That makes sense. If we flesh out

19 in greater detail and then I can bring that

20 back home, that would be very helpful.

21 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy

22 Shepherd from AHRI. And I think one thing
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1 that could be in such a requirement would be

2 a requirement for training with maybe some

3 examples of the types of things that could be

4 done, but it's left up to individual

5 manufacturers as to how exactly they might

6 want to fulfill that requirement. Rather than

7 having sort of one specified locked-down idea

8 for everyone. 

9 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

10 Ingersoll Rand. I would agree with what's

11 been said.

12 I just want to maybe take a step

13 back for a second. One of the things that we

14 had decided really on day one is that we were

15 talking about a workable enforcement

16 framework.

17 And the question was asked about

18 whether or not all elements of that framework

19 necessarily needed to be regulatory

20 requirements. If there could be other means

21 that would help create a workable enforcement

22 framework. 
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1 And the decision was yes, there

2 could be.

3 So, I guess I just want to put out

4 there that if there could be some kind of, I

5 don't know exactly what other mechanism, some

6 sort of declaration or whatever it would be by

7 all the OEMs among perhaps others.

8 It's my understanding that that

9 would be in scope of creating a workable

10 enforcement framework. It doesn't necessarily

11 have to be in the actual final regulation. 

12 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

13 with ACCA. When you're talking about training

14 are you talking about perhaps a curriculum or

15 a standardized test? Possibly certification. 

16 And I don't want to go too far

17 because now we're looking at requiring certain

18 things.

19 I think what I've heard from the

20 manufacturers sounds interesting which is sort

21 of this effort or attempt to provide training

22 to their folks, their dealers.
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1 And I think this is already

2 happening. So I don't think it makes sense to

3 put it as a requirement to make this happen.

4 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst

5 with Lennox. I think the other challenge

6 would be many of us have different routes to

7 market and different channels.

8 And so a regulation written for

9 manufacturers, some of us own retail

10 locations. Some of us own our own

11 distribution. Some of us have a mix of

12 independent wholesale distribution and

13 company-owned distribution. It would be very

14 difficult to maybe have a one size fits all.

15 I think we all have marketing

16 departments. We all have training

17 departments. We all have an internet

18 presence. 

19 I would prefer that -- it's

20 something that we're going to do as a matter

21 of course of regular business. And I think we

22 know our channels best. And I think we're
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1 going to do it. I would prefer that we don't

2 try to do a one size fits all for identify

3 types of channels in the marketplace.

4 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. So

5 I guess going back to Jordan's point which

6 maybe the manufacturers could caucus and think

7 of whether this is a joint statement you want

8 to release to say that you'll take these

9 particular steps in support of the

10 Department's efforts to enforce regional

11 standards. And we'll do X, Y and Z as

12 tailored to fit your particular business

13 model. Something like that might be helpful. 

14 And we could include that language

15 in the preamble as Neil has offered to say,

16 hey, this is what we're willing to do to help

17 support the Department's enforcement efforts.

18 MR. EISNER: I would also suggest

19 in case the Department ends up with very

20 little meat on the regulation side that people

21 will question whether or not it's going to

22 work because nothing is really required.
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1 The way to get to the kinds of

2 problems you were talking about, for example,

3 a different situation you have, John, is a

4 manufacturer will submit a plan for approval

5 by DOE of the kind of training it will do to

6 effectively implement the program. DOE says

7 it's okay, it's okay. 

8 But it's a regulation. So if DOE

9 feels they need something stronger then we're

10 committed to helping in the preamble. That

11 may be one thing to think about.

12 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 

13 Number 3 also says training to contractors and

14 distributors. It doesn't specifically state

15 manufacturer training to contractors and

16 distributors. 

17 So maybe we also put on the table

18 is there a level of training that the DOE

19 would provide, be it a webinar or even just an

20 online tool.

21 I think it goes back up to number

22 one when we were talking about public outreach
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1 campaigns. I feel like we're rehashing some

2 of the same conversations around what are the

3 tools that installers need. What can DOE do? 

4 What can manufacturers bring to the table as

5 well?

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

7 So, from my point of view I already had

8 another take-back from a public outreach point

9 of view, the training we provide. And so I'll

10 follow up on that.

11 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

12 Rheem. I don't mean to throw my buddy here on

13 the right under the bus but for my company we

14 sell to all independent distribution. 

15 So, should there be a requirement

16 or should there be something from the

17 distributors that say they agree to do some

18 type of training too. I mean, they're the

19 ones who touch the contractors, at least from

20 the way we sell to the market, not me.

21 So, as we've gone through this

22 list today I think about 100 percent of the
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1 burden has ended up on the OEMs on this.

2 And we're going to do training. 

3 We also can develop training for our

4 distributors to use with their contractors.

5 I just don't have any authority to

6 force them to give that training to their

7 contractors.

8 So, if it's going to be in the

9 preamble that the OEMs are going to do X,

10 should it also include a statement that says

11 distributors of HVAC equipment are required to

12 do Y.

13 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter

14 from Johnstone Supply. First of all, we

15 appreciate you, Karen, and not selling against

16 us is very much appreciated.

17 We are willing, you know,

18 obviously distribution, as I've said we've

19 already put out literature on this issue. 

20 We'd be happy to have the pieces available

21 that DOE is going to provide. 

22 And hopefully that literature will
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1 maybe have a website that will have -- if you

2 do a webinar and you can that webinar so they

3 can actually go and watch it again and again

4 and again and again which, you know, I'm sure

5 it will be extremely fascinating and they may

6 want to view it multiple times.

7 So, I would put that on the

8 literature that we can give them.

9 But I think the industry will be

10 willing to provide lots of information over

11 this issue. Like I said, we have to explain

12 this to our consumers just on the basis of why

13 is this changing, why don't you carry that

14 product anymore, what is going on. I mean,

15 that question is going to get asked repeatedly

16 at every counter. 

17 So I don't think the training

18 issue is a very difficult one for anybody. I

19 think the information is going to get out

20 there quite rapidly. 

21 In fact, as soon as we figure this

22 out we have to get it out immediately. I
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1 mean, everybody is waiting to get it out to

2 the contractor yesterday and I'm waiting to

3 get it out to the distributors yesterday

4 because everybody is purchasing for the

5 following year. So, everybody's kind of

6 waiting for the information. So I don't think

7 that's going to be a problem, getting this

8 information to contractors at all.

9 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White

10 with PHCC. And I would echo that. I think I

11 said last week or two weeks ago contractors

12 want to know what to do. Tell us what to do,

13 we'll do it. So, we need the information. 

14 The reality is, at least from my

15 association's point of view, again speaking

16 Charlie's point of view, probably we're going

17 to do a lot of training. 

18 We have done training about --

19 we've presented information about this

20 process. But we don't know the answers to all

21 the things to tell people yet so we're kind of

22 at a roadblock. 
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1 But I'd like to throw some

2 parallels here. We stopped using R22 and went

3 to 410. Was there language written in that

4 that we had to make everybody do training and

5 we promise we'll do training? 

6 We stopped SEER 10 and went to

7 SEER 13. Did we make everybody promise we're

8 going to do that then? 

9 It happens. The industry is going

10 to respond and react. We're very grateful to

11 manufacturers that provide the information

12 they provide. We're very grateful to our

13 wholesalers who help us along the way. 

14 Our associations collaborate on

15 things to get the message out. And my

16 contractor members are grateful all up and

17 down the line to have this help.

18 And we're certainly for anything

19 DOE can give us that gives us a uniform script

20 so we're all telling the same story and people

21 get the same message.

22 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So I'm
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1 interested in hearing from Chuck and Charlie

2 about how much training.

3 Because the one thing I always

4 think about what training costs for

5 contractors is its overhead. It's not a

6 billable cost to the customer.

7 So, how much training is palatable

8 and how much training would be useful from

9 that perspective?

10 MR. WHITE: Well, this is Chuck

11 White again. I'll throw this out there. 

12 We're not -- it's not exactly rocket science

13 here. We're changing the SEER level and we're

14 throwing some geographic things again.

15 It's not like we're all of a

16 sudden going to 410 from when we used 22 and

17 we have some complicating issues to go with

18 that. That was certainly needed a lot more

19 information passed along, a lot more training. 

20 That was a major change.

21 This is going to be, look folks,

22 if you're working in these areas you need to
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1 know there's a demarcation line. You need to

2 know these are the products. Here's the

3 reasons why so you can give people some

4 background information. 

5 There's a lot of information to be

6 passed out here. But it's not really

7 technically deep. It's not nuts and bolts

8 deep. The guy who's installing the equipment,

9 he has some changes, there are some

10 differences, but it's not a significant

11 radical departure from what we've done before. 

12 So, yes, we've got some training

13 to do. We've got information to pass along. 

14 But it's not something that we're going to

15 need a 40-hour seminar and sign off on a 100-

16 question test. 

17 You know, here's the states. 

18 Here's where you work. Here's the changes. 

19 The Southeast and the Southwest, that's a

20 complication. 

21 You know, we have information to

22 pass along but it's not -- we didn't suddenly
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1 change the way the world turns.

2 MR. RAWALD: Chuck, this is Doug. 

3 That's very helpful because I guess I'm trying

4 to figure out, first of all, the idea of

5 testing and all that, that seems to me to be

6 really far downstream, not the concern.

7 What I'm wondering is, is it a

8 one-hour course one time? Is it a three-hour

9 course one time? Is it a one-hour course

10 every quarter? Is it a five-hour course in

11 one time? What do people kind of have a sense

12 of what we're looking for in the amount of

13 training?

14 Because that may help the

15 manufacturers figure out how much it's going

16 to cost them to do this kind of thing anyway. 

17 And from the DOE point of view how much it's

18 going to cost us, frankly, if we need to do

19 training.

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

21 with ACCA. I think Chuck's right. I mean,

22 this is relatively simple to change. 
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1 I mean, if you're near the border

2 you just need to understand what the rules

3 are.

4 Most contractors do little safety

5 toolbox talks once a week, once a month,

6 quarterly. Oftentimes they're incented by

7 their insurance companies that carry their

8 liability to have these little meetings. And

9 so perhaps this would be a 15-20 minute

10 session with the map, with the chart showing

11 what's legal where.

12 Recently OSHA changed the HAZMAT

13 placards. They harmonized with the global

14 HAZMAT placards. 

15 And there was a required training

16 for all employees to the new standards. And

17 they weren't big.

18 I'd like to go back and look at

19 that because I don't think it was -- when I

20 say it was a required training I think all

21 employees were essentially required to be

22 trained to it, but there was no requirement of
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1 what the training would be.

2 And so in that case there were a

3 bunch of third party vendors who put on

4 webinars that you could buy and you could in

5 one of your safety toolbox talks watch one of

6 these things.

7 I don't even think we need that

8 far. That's why -- I'm glad to hear what you

9 said because I don't want the training blessed

10 by DOE. I don't think you want to do that.

11 MR. RAWALD: And Charlie, I think

12 you're exactly right.

13 What I'm wondering about is as

14 part of any rule we're going to have to

15 consider what the effects are going to be in

16 our analysis. 

17 So I want to be able to kind of be

18 able to -- even if the regulation only says

19 training to this perspective I want to be able

20 for us to articulate we've talked to the

21 stakeholders and they say this will be a one22 hour burden on them once a year. That kind of
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1 thing.

2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I think as part of

3 the materials that you put out for contractors

4 I think just review of that. I think that

5 would satisfy sort of the interest here which

6 is training contractors and distributors to

7 compliance.

8 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

9 I think 20 minutes is optimistic.

10 MR. RAWALD: Optimistic that you

11 could fill up 20 minutes, or that you could

12 get through one in 20 minutes?

13 MR. WHITE: Following the premises

14 for 20-plus years. Twenty minutes is

15 optimistic.

16 But it's going to be somewhere in

17 that one- to three-hour range I would think. 

18 I can't really imagine it getting beyond that

19 depending on what happens in the rest of these

20 meetings. It could always expand from there

21 depending on what happens.

22 But just from kind of where I'm
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1 looking at it right now I think that one- to

2 three-hour kind of mark is -- I think there

3 hours is probably generous, very generous.

4 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

5 Johnstone Supply. I really don't see the

6 training, the issue on the industry side

7 really being a problem here.

8 Where you're going to get it is

9 where the homeowner as this goes on in years

10 down the road. Your communication, since all

11 contractors are homeowners, or most are, you

12 know educating the homeowner is paramount.

13 I see very little issue with the

14 industry on this issue. Maybe on the border

15 sides. Nobody's going to drive a long

16 distance to go up and get one and come back. 

17 That would negate the cost delta anyway.

18 And I really think your problem is

19 going to be with online. I mean, online is

20 the issue where the homeowner could purchase

21 that directly and not be aware that they're

22 even doing anything illegal. And online
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1 companies are not really represented here at

2 all. 

3 And I think that's where your

4 problem with this whole thing lies, not with

5 the industry and contractors and distributors

6 at all.

7 If there's going to be violations

8 it's going to come from online.

9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And

10 so, thinking about what Steve says, thinking

11 a large part of training of the contractors

12 would be how to answer the questions from the

13 homeowners. Because that's -- they're going

14 to be getting the questions. And so how do

15 you deal with your customer. 

16 Your customer is going to be upset

17 they're paying more for their product. How do

18 you deal with that? How do you explain? How

19 do you message this?

20 So that's part of the training as

21 well. Not just how do you identify that

22 you're installing the right product and what
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1 are the consequences if you decide to skirt

2 these rules, but how do you tell your customer

3 what you're doing and encourage them if they

4 want heard from somebody else any different to

5 not hire that person because that person is

6 leading down a wrong path. And so kind of

7 that information as well.

8 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

9 Also, we aren't there yet, but we are going to

10 have discussion at some point about are we

11 going to whistleblow on people and turn people

12 in.

13 We want contractors and installers

14 to also understand the sell-through, the

15 cutoff recognition of products so that you're

16 not burdened with somebody calling and saying

17 I saw a 13 and it was installed on December

18 29. 

19 Or it has the certain serial

20 number that puts it in the right date code

21 that that's going to be a part of it as well. 

22 If indeed down the page here we're going to
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1 encourage people to report bad actors that's

2 certainly going to be part of this training as

3 well.

4 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And this is

5 Charlie with ACCA. I want to retract my

6 previous statement about probably just using

7 a toolbox session.

8 Because now that I listen to

9 Chuck, he's right. There's a lot of details

10 here. 

11 And it's easier in the Southwest

12 because it's based on the size component, you

13 know, the capacity of the system. And that's

14 going to be something that in the Southwest is

15 really going to confuse people, I think.

16 But there's also, what, 11 other

17 product categories that are seeing changes in

18 their standard? They're national. But it

19 might make sense to tell people that the heat

20 pump standard has gone up. And so now, you

21 know. There's a sell-through period for the

22 heat pump and it doesn't have a grace period.
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1 But there is a grace period for

2 the sell-through on -- or Karen, are you

3 saying that there's no sell-through on heat

4 pumps?

5 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

6 Rheem. The sell-through does not apply to

7 heat pumps. The effective date is date of

8 manufacture. You could sell 13 SEER heat

9 pumps as long as you have an inventory into --

10 for the next 20 years.

11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And that's what I

12 was saying. I may have ineloquently said it,

13 but yes. So what you have is you have a sell14 through for heat pumps, but a grace period, a

15 shortened sell-through for central air

16 conditioners. And that may be confusing. So

17 there's a lot.

18 And then I think about it. I've

19 done a number of webinars. When I go to

20 chapters, I have a slide deck. I could give

21 it to you. You could use it.

22 And I explain everything. I mean,
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1 I go through everything. And it takes me at

2 least 45 minutes to an hour. And I get a lot

3 of questions.

4 So yes, this is more complicated

5 than I thought.

6 MR. EISNER: Other comments on

7 this?

8 MR. HURST: Yes, John Hurst with

9 Lennox. A lot of the explanation that I've

10 been doing on these calls has been kind of the

11 moving pieces of this.

12 So, I think if we get a number of

13 the issues resolved the training burden is

14 reduced significantly with clarity. 

15 And the draft guidance that's been

16 put out, the additional language we got

17 yesterday. If we can get this to a point

18 where it's fairly simple.

19 I think there's a few questions

20 that are out there that people are confused

21 by. And if the answers are simple and don't

22 require a lot of follow-up this could be as
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1 easy as a few well-placed YouTube videos that

2 have a consistent message.

3 Now, I'm not negating the fact

4 that some people need more training and it

5 needs to be reiterated over time. But I don't

6 think if we get this to easy it's that hard,

7 if that makes sense.

8 MR. EISNER: Anything else? All

9 right, again I think we've got an issue with

10 homework and we can discuss again at the next

11 meeting.

12 Let's go on to number 4, use of

13 AHRI database certificates. 

14 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And so

15 we had an extensive presentation on this

16 yesterday. And obviously this will be a tool

17 that I will use in investigating anything. 

18 I'll look at the database as a resource. And

19 I use it.

20 The question really was one from

21 an enforcement and compliance point of view. 

22 Does it make sense to place a requirement on
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1 folks to provide a certificate from AHRI if

2 there's one available and what are the

3 downsides of that and positive sides of that

4 to the consumer or to the installer?

5 You know, what's our thoughts on

6 that? Should that be part of the framework at

7 all?

8 Knowing there's a resource out

9 there that we could take advantage of, should

10 we try to take advantage of it regulatory, or

11 should we just know it exists. 

12 And while I guess use it as an

13 investigative tool, but no one feels any need

14 to have that kind of written into the rules.

15 MR. EISNER: Any response? 

16 Harvey?

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I

18 guess the only question I can think of is

19 whether that database will assuredly remain

20 accessible to you and to the public. Do you

21 need some sort of a requirement of access to

22 that database? 
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1 MR. RAWALD: So, from my point of

2 view I guess I know a piece of information

3 that exists within a trade association. So if

4 it became not available to me I could subpoena

5 or request that information if I needed it for

6 an investigation. So I don't see that as a

7 roadblock, though it would make this more

8 difficult.

9 But I think your point is fair

10 that you would like to hear from AHRI that

11 they're going to keep it open for business. 

12 It sounds like to me that's what you're

13 asking.

14 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, I think

15 that's our whole business model but I'll let

16 Karim expand on that if you want to.

17 (Laughter)

18 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

19 AHRI. The database has been available for a

20 very long time, maybe even before DOE, I don't

21 know. 

22 And we intend to keep it there. 
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1 Obviously it has been useful to the industry,

2 useful to the manufacturers. 

3 So while I cannot of course

4 guarantee anything, but our intent is to keep

5 it there and keep it available.

6 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. If we

7 were to write some sort of regulatory

8 requirement that installers provide a

9 certificate from AHRI or an equivalent or none

10 available, or something like that. 

11 We'd have to write sort of follow12 up language probably that says if the database

13 becomes unavailable for some reason then

14 here's what we would do instead. That would

15 be the if-then I think from that.

16 MR. HURST: John Hurst with

17 Lennox. In the spirit of making things easy,

18 and this may sound like an easy concept. It's

19 real easy because I don't have to do the work. 

20 But the CCMS database and the AHRI

21 database as a failsafe, could you not put a,

22 you know, you can sort by -- we were shown,
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1 what, day before yesterday you can sort by a

2 whole bunch of different things.

3 Could you just go in and say what

4 state are you in? And then from that opening

5 page the dealer, the contractor, the installer

6 is directed towards the matches that are legal

7 in that state. Nothing else.

8 MR. RAWALD: That's a question for

9 AHRI I think really as far as their directory,

10 whether they could do that. Or also from the

11 CCMS point of view. 

12 So, we haven't shown the CCMS

13 database at length up on the screen yet and I

14 do want to do that for you folks at some point

15 so you can see that there are some

16 differences.

17 The net positive about the DOE

18 database is that it incorporates everyone. 

19 Even if you're not an AHRI participant, you're

20 there.

21 The net negative is the

22 searchability is a lot less and it doesn't
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1 have a lot of bells and whistles the AHRI

2 directory has. So there's some things to

3 think about whether they can coexist or not.

4 And there's some Department drive

5 to obviously use our database because it's our

6 database and we think it's more inclusive but

7 it's not exclusive to members that pay a fee. 

8 But I would have to ask the

9 question to those folks who built the database

10 whether there's some way to make it reasonably

11 useful to the regional participant to look at

12 what they could use. 

13 And so I'll put that down as a

14 talking point for me to bring back to my

15 folks.

16 MR. ROCKY: Bryan Rocky from

17 Johnson Controls. So just looking at that,

18 Doug. The comment of having the data

19 available in the CCMS is different than your

20 comment a minute ago of is this requiring --

21 does the enforcement require a certificate or

22 some document be provided to the consumer at
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1 point of sale or installation of their

2 equipment.

3 And in coming around to the point

4 of I think that might be the only way we

5 actually have an answer to a lot of these

6 discussions. Is that something has to be

7 provided at the point of sale from the

8 installing contractor for traceability,

9 accountability and awareness. I don't know

10 what that document is, but I've been doodling

11 about what that might include.

12 MR. RAWALD: So, Bryan, this is

13 Doug. I know Karim is waiting to speak.

14 So, what you're envisioning then

15 is somehow making sure that the installer

16 provides the information that would either be

17 obtained from the AHRI database or from the

18 DOE database that would have the information

19 that the consumer needs to know that they have

20 a compliant product with the standards.

21 And you're shaking your head yes.

22 MR. ROCKY: Yes.
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1 MR. EISNER: Karim?

2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Just

3 to add to the AHRI database issue. We can

4 certainly modify our database to make it

5 easier for the consumer to find out whether

6 its products are legal in where they live. 

7 Something that we can certainly do.

8 But obviously any change to the

9 database is something that our members have to

10 agree to. So it's something we can definitely

11 take back to our members and decide whether we

12 should do it.

13 But it can be done. 

14 MR. RAWALD: And Chuck, just real

15 quick, so Karim, I see it also useful not from

16 only the consumer point of view but from the

17 contractor's. 

18 Because if they're going to be

19 forced to go on the database at some point it

20 would be easier for them to click the button

21 and get what they want. The simpler it would

22 be for them I think to execute and follow the
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1 rules without being actually burdensome. 

2 But I'd like to hear from Chuck

3 because he was definitely on this point.

4 MR. WHITE: Well, contractors are

5 going to be providing more paperwork

6 routinely, going to have to provide more

7 paperwork. So we need to know what's in that

8 packet and we'll work to put that packet

9 together to be in compliance.

10 And we know some of our partners

11 will help us with that. Wholesalers will make

12 sure, or attempt to try and get us that,

13 coordinate with us. I don't see that as an

14 insurmountable issue.

15 My question is this is fine for a

16 system. But if I change a condensing unit as

17 a component I'm not going to have a match

18 thing with it. Will I be able to pull

19 something from the AHRI database that will

20 satisfy if I'm working under this parallel

21 path?

22 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt
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1 Lattanzi with NORDYNE. We already have a

2 requirement that a contractor has to provide

3 the energy guide label to the consumer. So I

4 think that meets Chuck's question.

5 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White

6 again. But if we're going to say that we have

7 to provide the AHRI document as well, if

8 that's what we're going to add, how do we do

9 that if we're not going to put a code with it? 

10 If we're just going to solve a condensing unit

11 as a component.

12 MR. LATTANZI: I guess --

13 MR. WHITE: I'm not deep into the

14 AHRI database so I don't -- just pick it as

15 the base model and call it good?

16 MR. AMRANE: The guidance that DOE

17 came up with yesterday or the day before says

18 that the condensing unit that you will be

19 installing will have to be matched with the

20 code to meet the regional standard or whatever

21 the standard that's applicable in the region.

22 So what you will have to do is to
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1 search by the condensing model number and

2 database. And you will find all the listings

3 that the condensing unit can provide, you

4 know, whether it can provide the efficiency

5 levels that you are looking for.

6 Now, obviously that condensing

7 unit in the field would be met maybe with a

8 code that might not give you whatever the

9 levels that you're looking for, but that's a

10 different issue though.

11 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And so

12 I guess to address Chuck's point we can tailor

13 this as we draft it to fit the system versus

14 the install.

15 And the question is, is there a

16 necessity when installing a system to provide

17 that additional information? Or would the

18 energy guide label be sufficient?

19 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt. 

20 That's the question I'm asking. I'm not sure

21 what value the certificate provides above the

22 energy guide label.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Assuming, based upon

2 what we heard yesterday, that the energy guide

3 label, if it shows it straddling the number

4 then they shouldn't be there in the first

5 place. But if it starts at 14 then we're

6 good.

7 And what the AHRI database says

8 about the combination is it cannot provide any

9 more information beyond what's on the label.

10 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. 

11 That's correct. That's exactly what I'm

12 saying. Based on what was revealed yesterday

13 I'm struggling with the value above what's

14 already on the energy guide label. Correct?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary from

16 the California IOUs. So, forgive my ignorance

17 here, but does the energy guide label have the

18 EER on it which is a requirement in

19 California?

20 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt with

21 NORDYNE. Yes, it does.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, thank you.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Okay, so we have at

2 least Matt suggesting that we probably don't

3 need any more information given the guidance

4 as I explained yesterday and the label as it

5 exists now and as it hopefully will be changed

6 to meet the needs in the future.

7 Does anyone else think it would be

8 necessary, would it be helpful that we keep it

9 as a tool for DOE to use in the investigation,

10 but it's still not useful or necessary to

11 regulate that contractors provide it. And

12 actually it could be somewhat burdensome to

13 contractors to make them print it out on a

14 piece of paper and provide it to individuals.

15 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

16 Johnstone Supply. It just seems kind of

17 redundant to me. It's giving them the same

18 information if we get to that 14 SEER label

19 agreement. I'm sure the energy advocates

20 would like to kill less trees.

21 MR. RAWALD: Well, and we've only

22 been talking to the folks in our
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1 manufacturing. I haven't heard from

2 Elizabeth, Harvey, or Tim on this. So I think

3 I'd like to hear from them.

4 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I guess

5 I'm more interested in currently the energy

6 guide label as I think we're setting it up

7 will clearly show the unit at least meets 14

8 in the South.

9 And for your actual rating you

10 need to go to the productinfo.gov site. And

11 I guess that currently dumps you out at CCMS. 

12 And I'm wondering if there's maybe

13 a better way to structure that interface with

14 the database for consumers when they actually

15 go.

16 Because, I mean I know consumers

17 do use the DOE database now, but I think this

18 is going to be directing a whole new --

19 hopefully be directing a lot of new users to

20 that system. And is that database optimized

21 for the new users who are going to be coming

22 to it?
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1 MR. RAWALD: You asked the

2 question is it optimized when I think that you

3 probably know that it's possibly not because

4 of the overwhelming number of returns you will

5 get.

6 So the question that I will bring

7 back to the folks that I work with who pay for

8 these things and can make a decision on these

9 kind of things is whether we can somehow at

10 least tailor for the regional context our

11 database to be more approachable for

12 consumers.

13 Understand that this isn't going

14 to be for them to check compliance as much as

15 them to see the actual performance of what the

16 combination they have installed would be,

17 correct? 

18 Because they know the compliance

19 of it based upon the energy guide label

20 ostensibly, right? Because the way we

21 resolved that issue seemed to be leaning

22 towards that.
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1 MR. BALLO: Right. And obviously

2 if they get the paper from AHRI they can go to

3 the AHRI website which is I think a little

4 more user-friendly but again, not everyone is

5 going to get that.

6 MR. RAWALD: Tim, my feelings

7 aren't hurt. It's okay. I looked at both

8 sides and I've explained. As I've said, there

9 are advantages to either for totally different

10 reasons.

11 MR. EISNER: So, anybody want to

12 make the argument that we should be requiring

13 something with respect to AHRI? And I assume

14 that would also include CCMS. So, no mandates

15 on these two.

16 Okay. It's 12 o'clock. Rather

17 than start a new issue maybe now is the time

18 to take a break, come back and talk about

19 collection of information. 

20 MR. RAWALD: One o'clock?

21 MR. EISNER: Yes, come back at 1

22 o'clock.
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1 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

2 matter went off the record at 12:01 p.m. and

3 resumed at 1:06 p.m.)

4 MR. EISNER: All right, our next

5 subject is collection of information,

6 suspected violations data. Let's start off

7 with whistleblower. Who would like to start

8 the conversation there?

9 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

10 with ACCA and I'm happy to start off this one.

11 I think contractors would like the

12 opportunity to be part of the enforcement

13 here. If there was a 1-800 number I think

14 they would use it. 

15 And I think a contractor is

16 sophisticated enough to recognize a piece of

17 equipment that's been illegally installed. It

18 may not have a label on it. I think they

19 could probably look at the faceplate and other

20 things. So, I think they'd be very good eyes

21 on the ground.

22 What we would sort of insist upon
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1 or I think strongly suggest is either some

2 kind of a positive response which is something

3 back from the agency saying yes, we've

4 received this. 

5 If it's more than just a

6 conversation -- or I mean if it's more than

7 just a recorded number where you leave

8 information. But something that they got

9 information back or some type of response,

10 positive response back from DOE.

11 And they would I think also -- I

12 think what I'd also like to know about more

13 too on this is resources that you would have

14 or what might happen afterwards so that we

15 could better understand what might happen when

16 they make a call.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is

18 Doug. Before John talks let me just jump in

19 so I can talk about it what we do now because

20 I think it will help inform the discussion.

21 So, we don't have a 1-800 number

22 currently for reporting violations. We have
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1 an email address that is accessed through our

2 website but also available at a number of

3 places. And if people do email the

4 Department, people email the Secretary

5 sometimes with complaints, it trickles back

6 down to us and we say please submit to this

7 email box and then we'll deal with it.

8 So, we're universally on an email

9 complaint system. So I'll have to check in

10 about the dollars and cents of a 1-800 number.

11 And I'd also like to hear about

12 kind of from people's perspective on email

13 versus phone call versus both, and whether

14 they could work together, or one's better than

15 the other.

16 But what we do once we get a

17 complaint is then we follow up on it. If it's

18 not anonymous then we'll contact the person

19 making the complaint and we'll try to get as

20 much information as possible.

21 We'll explain to of course they

22 have confidentiality. They're not going to be
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1 exposed. That we're going to keep the

2 information close hold. 

3 And depending on what information

4 they offer we'll them embark upon the thing I

5 discussed yesterday, what our various tools

6 are.

7 So, either we'll buy a product, or

8 if someone provides me actual data. You know,

9 someone says here's the data I have from a

10 testing of this thing then I may have enough

11 information to then go to the company and have

12 them provide the units without DOE paying for

13 it at all. We may ask for data from the

14 company.

15 So, but we do follow up on every

16 single complaint which can be time-consuming

17 because we get a fair amount of them. And I'm

18 sure it sounds like we'll get more possibly in

19 this.

20 So, I think that we'll have to

21 just gauge how we handle based upon the

22 volume.
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1 I'd imagine if we had a 1-800

2 number it would be a voicemail. It would not

3 be active voice listening. So, someone would

4 have to then check the voicemail on a regular

5 basis and follow up on complaints.

6 And voicemails that are just a

7 random, hey, there's a non-compliant unit here

8 may be the hardest ones to follow up on as

9 opposed to the ones with more information.

10 One of the things that makes the

11 emails useful is that typically the emails

12 aren't anonymous. So typically most people

13 use a real email address. 

14 Though we have some people who

15 make a Hotmail account just to subscribe to

16 us, email us and then they never get heard

17 from again. And that conversation with the

18 whistleblower makes it more fruitful. The

19 reporting itself is helpful, but having a

20 conversation and understanding what the basis

21 for the information is and getting some more

22 details that somebody wouldn't even think to
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1 report makes the whistleblowing that much more

2 useful to us.

3 And so we would certainly want to

4 have a conversation with anyone that did make

5 a report and that would be the way we would

6 handle it from the first step, I think,

7 Charlie.

8 MR. HURST: John Hurst with

9 Lennox. Following up on what you said, Doug,

10 I think email or voicemail both are very

11 effective.

12 It could be even made more

13 effective if certain fields were required to

14 report a violation.

15 We spent a lot of time talking

16 about -- not a lot of time, but what the

17 program might look like. 

18 I just want to highlight what I

19 believe to be the fact that if there is this

20 type of program in place I think the

21 willingness of a contractor that might think

22 about cheating goes way down. 
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1 And so even without looking at the

2 tenets of what a program would look like I

3 think if a contractor has a reasonable belief

4 that they'll get caught I think the desire to

5 cheat goes way down, way down.

6 MR. RAWALD: Chuck or Charlie, can

7 you guys talk to that?

8 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

9 I think that's true. If there is enforcement

10 or we know there's an avenue for it.

11 When programs are created, we're

12 going to do this, it's got to be this way, and

13 then nothing ever happens and not -- and I

14 don't mean it in this particular case, but in

15 some cases where you don't really see there's

16 any benefit. 

17 We just have some hoops to jump

18 through and there's no conceivable chance

19 anybody's going to follow up, contractors, if

20 it's burdensome, if you don't see the benefit

21 you're hardly going to follow. 

22 I don't think that's the case
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1 here. I think people are going to understand

2 the advantage of going to SEER 14 or the

3 benefit.

4 But knowing that there is a

5 possible easy avenue for someone to report

6 these activities and having it be confidential

7 is really, really important.

8 In Indiana we've gone through an

9 issue with reporting licensing issues. And in

10 their form you have to put down who you are

11 making a complaint which is public record. So

12 it gets back in your locality. 

13 If you turned in a guy you know it

14 gets a little troublesome. So, the

15 confidentiality I think is really important,

16 that you don't have to worry that somebody is

17 going to come knocking on your door. 

18 Or sometimes you may not know who

19 did it and you might inadvertently turn in

20 someone who might be a friend of yours or

21 somebody you know. And there's some benefit

22 to that, that if there's no name on it that
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1 might be a downside to our contractor label.

2 We said earlier if I know I found

3 a 13 in Charlie and I know Charlie, we bowl

4 together, I don't want to turn Charlie in so

5 I let it slide. 

6 But the confidentiality I think is

7 a really big great thing. Helpful.

8 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug

9 again. What I mentioned was that oftentimes

10 the follow-up conversation is also very

11 useful. 

12 What do you think the contractor's

13 palate would be for engaging in that as

14 opposed to simply having a phone call where

15 you leave a message and then knowing someone's

16 going to deal with it but they don't want to

17 be called back.

18 Do people want to be actively

19 engaged, or would they not want to be?

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

21 with ACCA. I think the reason I mentioned the

22 positive response is some of the frustrations
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1 with the EPA 608 program where there's no

2 enforcement and people do call and then

3 nothing seems to happen.

4 And I understand what Chuck is

5 saying too about the confidentiality and maybe

6 you just want to throw it over the transom and

7 let someone else deal with it.

8 I'd have to think about that. I

9 don't know where our folks would split. 

10 Between continuing engagement. 

11 Somebody I think mentioned it may

12 have been during lunch that contractors tend

13 to be skittish about interaction with

14 government agencies. So, that may play into

15 it too.

16 I mean, I've got a couple of notes

17 that I'm going to reach out to some of my

18 folks and let me see where they fall out on

19 that.

20 And by saying that I'm not saying

21 we should take any of this off. I mean, all

22 this stuff should be in play I think.
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1 MS. HARIHARAN: This is Johanna

2 Hariharan, Department of Energy. Just to

3 follow up on that. Would you think that

4 contractors would be more interested if there

5 was like a webpage with a form where you could

6 fill out certain areas, where you had to

7 verify that you're a real person and stuff?

8 And then you could say whether or

9 not you'd want to be contacted for a follow10 up. And include all the information that

11 you'd want to. And then you would get a

12 tracking number once you'd submitted it, so

13 you could tell that you could actually find

14 out, you know, where your complaint went.

15 Would that be something that could

16 be more helpful?

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I

18 just want to jump in and say maybe it's great

19 minds running in the same gutter, but I think

20 that's beautiful.

21 What I've been thinking has this

22 dialogue has been going on is that it's gotten
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1 to be a system that looks as broadly useful as

2 possible instead of something that's -- would

3 the contractor prefer X or Y. 

4 Because I think there's going to

5 be a huge dispersion of building inspectors,

6 contractors, homeowners, all sorts of people. 

7 And I think that's just -- that's a mental

8 model I really liked.

9 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

10 Rheem. Wouldn't we be required to keep the

11 whistleblower information -- I mean are you

12 required to keep that confidential?

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

14 question is will the Department have a legal

15 obligation to keep that confidential. And

16 there are whistleblower protection acts that

17 do cover that stuff. And so Johanna and Eric

18 and I will go back and look at the exact legal

19 parameters and how that goes.

20 What I would say is any program to

21 be effective we would want to guarantee

22 confidentiality anyway. It's just a question
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1 of whether if somebody filed a FOIA request we

2 could claim that this act protects that. And

3 so I want to make sure that we could guarantee

4 that there's some sort of statutory protection

5 out there for that.

6 What I guess I'm wondering is, so

7 I could say to someone it's going to be as

8 confidential as they want, but they could

9 figure that their name's going to be in a

10 database somewhere so how confidential is it

11 really. There's always that kind of sense of

12 once my name is in someone else's hands I

13 don't really know that it's going to be kept

14 there forever. And so I guess there's always

15 that latent suspicion. 

16 Do you think people are willing to

17 overcome that to report violations, or do you

18 think that might trump their desire to report

19 because they're really just afraid of ending

20 up with their name in a database?

21 MR. WHITE: I think I see problems

22 with this whole process from your perspective. 
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1 Anonymous phone calls are a little

2 harder to put stock into. You really would

3 like to know who. When somebody puts their

4 name to it that adds validity.

5 I like the idea that you on a web

6 form you could have an opt-out, don't contact

7 me. 

8 Because it could be somebody

9 working for an organization. It could be an

10 installer working for their boss. You could

11 have all kinds of scenarios.

12 So, but you need to try and get as

13 much information as possible. It's not

14 helpful to have somebody call up, I'm in

15 Tallahassee, Florida and I saw a SEER 13 air

16 conditioner on the south side of town. You

17 need to do something about it. Click. That's

18 going to be impossible for you to deal with.

19 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is

20 Doug. And that's not unprecedented. I mean

21 we get those kind of emails, like I said.

22 So this will be arriving at the
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1 docks in California next week. And that's it. 

2 And that's very hard to deal with.

3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I think to answer

4 the question that was posed on the website, or

5 to sort of follow up on what Harvey was

6 saying.

7 If there's a menu of options I

8 think that that would be helpful. Whether it

9 be a call or a website.

10 I mean, certainly some would be

11 able to give more information, or be willing

12 to give more information, even their name.

13 I think your intuition about

14 people's being sensitive about submitting

15 their own name and then it ends up in a

16 database, and might that attract some type of

17 interest. You know, I think your intuition is

18 correct there.

19 But the potential here is great in

20 the sense that there's a lot of eyes in play

21 that could find, whether it be a building

22 inspector, a home inspector, contractor, the
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1 second homeowner, you know, after home

2 ownership has changed hands who could play

3 into this.

4 MR. DORIA: Jordan Doria from

5 Ingersoll Rand. Just to add on that. I think

6 we need to keep in mind what we believe would

7 be the primary motivation for somebody doing

8 this in the first place.

9 And to be honest, at least in my

10 opinion, it's not going to be their deep11 seated desire to see compliance, or to see

12 greater energy efficiency by a 14 SEER product

13 being installed.

14 It's going to be because they

15 think they're being undercut and that they are

16 losing business. 

17 So you might have concerns around

18 confidentiality. You might not want to

19 continue to be hassled with numerous calls. 

20 But if you think you're losing business that

21 is a pretty significant motivator to continue

22 with the process to a point where you no
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1 longer feel that's the case.

2 So if we agree that that's the

3 motivation I think that could for some trump

4 some of these other concerns.

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: As I said -- this

6 is Charlie with ACCA -- a lot of contractors

7 do call EPA's hotline on refrigerant

8 mismanagement.

9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I

10 appreciate that. I think that's a very

11 helpful data point to at least know people are

12 using those resources. 

13 So the question then becomes how

14 is the best method to put that information out

15 there. And do we want the folks that are

16 working with Karim on a possible label from

17 energy guide to include on that if installed

18 in this area call this number or email this

19 address. 

20 Do we want to make that part of

21 the DOE public relations campaign? Do we in

22 Harvey Sachs's prohibition label on the
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1 nameplate that says don't install here, or

2 Elizabeth, whoever wants to take ownership of

3 that that's working on Gary's design have that

4 number or that email? What's the most

5 effective manner in which making sure that

6 that information is out there for people to

7 avail themselves of that? 

8 Because a flyer could go in the

9 trash. They may not find it again. We'll

10 post it on our website. But what's the most

11 effective way to make sure that those people

12 who want to call that number will really get

13 to it?

14 It seems like contractors and

15 installers will probably know it because it's

16 going to be within their offices. They're

17 going to have that space.

18 But if we're talking about other

19 folks also calling that number, how do we make

20 sure they have that number available? John?

21 MR. HURST: John Hurst to respond

22 to that. I would put it in the training and
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1 let contractors know. Again, for it to be a

2 disincentive to actually -- you know, the best

3 violation is the one that never happens.

4 The other thing I was going to say

5 -- separate topic -- is the -- I just looked

6 at the SEC website. You Google

7 "whistleblower" and SEC pops up. They've got

8 a pretty robust form with the appropriate

9 information that you can fill in. So one of

10 those subgroups that looks at it might want to

11 check that out. I'm sure they've already run

12 the traps.

13 MR. RAWALD: Yes, so with SEC --

14 this is Doug -- they have also a lot of money

15 involved for whistleblowers. That seems like

16 -- I have to ask the policy folks, but it

17 seems like that will not be a player here. I

18 don't think there will be a cash incentive for

19 whistleblowing from the Department of Energy.

20 MR. HURST: Doug, I just meant the

21 form and how it's set up.

22 MR. RAWALD: I know.
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1 MR. HURST: I'm not trying to say

2 a Wall Street whistleblower is anything close

3 to a dealer finding a 13 SEER unit in the

4 South.

5 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

6 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I have a

7 question I guess for Doug. Related to the

8 idea of a website where you'd maybe get a

9 tracking number and you'd be able to follow up

10 with the Department.

11 If I'm someone who's really

12 motivated about this and I want to find out

13 whether the Department is following up how

14 much information can you provide to that

15 person who wants to make sure that this is

16 going to be -- I'd imagine you can say it's an

17 active investigation or it's been closed. But

18 how much are you going to be able to

19 communicate with that person?

20 MR. RAWALD: So, Tim, you are 100

21 percent correct. And Johanna and I haven't

22 spoken about the tracking number that she
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1 volunteered. But I think that probably would

2 not go very far because we wouldn't have much

3 information to provide on a routine basis.

4 And people do follow up because

5 people do, especially competitors. They're

6 the ones who are most aggressive and want to

7 know that their competitors are being brought

8 to task.

9 They often email and say what's

10 going on with my investigation. Really all we

11 can is be patient. We'll let you know when

12 it's closed.

13 And then when it's closed I send

14 them the link to the public announcement of

15 what we did. And that's pretty much all we

16 can give out.

17 Because you start going into sorts

18 of issues like discovery, whether you're

19 giving out privileged documents, FOIA, all

20 these things we start transgressing if we

21 start dealing out that stuff to a

22 whistleblower. 
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1 And so the practice is to simply

2 appropriately tell them the investigation is

3 ongoing and we'll report to you the findings

4 of the investigation when it's complete.

5 I don't think that there will be

6 much ability for them to actually track the

7 progress of their investigation.

8 MS. HARIHARAN: Right. And this

9 is Johanna. I said that based on the fact

10 that people were wondering if it was actually

11 seen by the Department. So it would just be

12 a simple yes, we've seen it, or no, it's

13 closed.

14 MR. EISNER: Other comments? How

15 about what should be required? Should this

16 all be voluntary? Except a requirement that

17 DOE set it up. But the question has been

18 asked whether there should be any requirements

19 imposed upon the industry.

20 MR. RAWALD: So, and I guess we're

21 getting -- this is Doug. If an industry

22 member overlooks a violation is there some
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1 sort of hey, you have an obligation to report

2 a violation if you see a violation.

3 MR. EISNER: Well, someone else

4 raised the question but I think that's the

5 kind of thing that we look for.

6 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan Doria

7 with Ingersoll Rand. I'm of the opinion that

8 at least from my company's perspective that if

9 we had extremely strong evidence, however we

10 came across it, of a highly likely violation. 

11 I want to use that term because

12 again I don't believe that we can be the

13 arbiters of whether one has, in fact,

14 occurred.

15 I actually think I'm of the

16 opinion that we would probably have an

17 obligation to do something with that.

18 I don't know how we can go from

19 saying there's an obligation to some kind of

20 requirement. Because then if there's a

21 requirement there's the necessary next

22 question of who's making sure that you're
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1 meeting that requirement. 

2 So that means all emails that come

3 into Ingersoll Rand people from the field. I

4 mean it could get pretty unworkable. So, I'm

5 only just saying that it's our view that there

6 is an obligation and I'm open to ways that we

7 could find a way to incorporate that more than

8 just can and should. Something a little

9 beyond that.

10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I

11 don't want the enforcement office to spend

12 their time enforcing the reporting of

13 violations as opposed to enforcing the

14 violations. So we need to be careful about

15 what we wish for with this.

16 So, and Jordan used some really I

17 think appropriately caveat terms. Extremely

18 likely. 

19 So, how does a person really

20 assess is it a violation or not? So how do we

21 know someone overlooked something? Like where

22 do you judge that? So those are very
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1 subjective terms that could be very difficult

2 to follow up on and time-consuming on our

3 part.

4 I do like the idea that people

5 have the opportunity to report. I'm just

6 uncertain that it's workable for us to require

7 reporting or to ask for a sanction for a

8 failure to report which would seem to be

9 necessary if we're going to have a requirement

10 to report.

11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. It's

12 hard for me to think like a manufacturer since

13 I've never been one. But I want to try in one

14 aspect.

15 And that is we have this

16 knowingly, this responsibility, I know about

17 repeated violations, then I'm liable.

18 And the only way I can see that I

19 can avoid being liable for reporting a

20 suspected one when I have that responsibility

21 is to be held harmless for reporting the first

22 incident, or the first two incidents, or
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1 whatever it is.

2 Hey, we have this suspicion that

3 we're getting a bunch of illegals in

4 Tuscaloosa. 

5 If that's going to mark the point

6 at which I'm knowingly violating I certainly

7 don't want to start that trail. So I think I

8 have to be held harmless for reporting that

9 suspicion.

10 MR. RAWALD: So Harvey, this is

11 Doug. I guess what I'm hearing you say is

12 there is some disincentive to report possibly

13 from a manufacturer point of view if you think

14 that you'll then be under scrutiny for future

15 transactions because now you've no -- because

16 you've reported it.

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm

18 respectfully and humbly offering that

19 hypothesis.

20 MR. RAWALD: No, I think that's a

21 very logical thought. 

22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?
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1 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan again. 

2 I guess I would say I think my view here is

3 it's going to be hard to get to a decision on

4 this particular point absent more clarity on

5 what constitutes a violation, what constitutes

6 routine violation. That's just my opinion. 

7 And who makes those decisions?

8 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So

9 this is really centered around manufacturer

10 reporting though. Because it doesn't really

11 affect anyone else.

12 Because the manufacturers have a

13 stake in this because they have a penalty

14 they're possibly facing for dealing with

15 someone they know to be a bad actor. So that

16 might a disincentive for them of

17 whistleblowing.

18 But it doesn't affect the

19 whistleblowing mechanism as designed for

20 anyone else that's not a manufacturer. Right? 

21 That's really what this relates to.

22 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I
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1 actually think the effectiveness of the

2 whistleblowing does hinge on the consequences

3 associated with it. Right? I mean, I think

4 if there's no teeth to it then what is the

5 incentive or disincentive to use this

6 mechanism?

7 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. 

8 I'm not saying there's no teeth and we'll get

9 to consequences.

10 What I'm hearing is there's a

11 concern that manufacturers may choose not to

12 whistleblow if they know they're dealing with

13 a bad actor because they don't want to have

14 future transaction with that person be deemed

15 under the umbrella of bad acting which we know

16 will cost them money.

17 But anyone else we'll still have

18 the reason to whistleblow because we'll take

19 an action against them and then we can discuss

20 consequences later, what the consequences will

21 be against the person that violates it.

22 But there's a kind of a conflict
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1 of interest for a manufacturer in a

2 whistleblowing realm, at least one that's out

3 there as a possibility as Harvey has

4 articulated it.

5 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt. 

6 As long as the consequence is against the

7 violator and not the manufacturer I don't

8 think we'll have a disincentive.

9 MR. RAWALD: Matt, this is Doug. 

10 So I think what Harvey's pointing to is the

11 one prohibited act that we know we have is one

12 that charges money to manufacturers for

13 knowing sales to someone they know to be a

14 routine violator.

15 So if you report contractor A as

16 being a knowing violator and then you decide

17 to keep dealing with him for whatever reason

18 then suddenly are you going to be more likely

19 to be in trouble because you've now reported

20 that person? So is there a disincentive to you

21 -- because you like dealing with contractor X

22 even though he's a rules violator. So you
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1 don't want to stop doing that. That's the

2 hypothesis I see Harvey discussing going on.

3 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. And

4 this goes to -- I actually brought this up

5 yesterday when I asked you the question does

6 this group have the authority and the ability

7 to expand the prohibited acts. That's exactly

8 where I was going.

9 So given that, if additional

10 prohibited acts are added and it is -- and

11 that prohibited act is with respect to the

12 violator I think the disincentive goes away.

13 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy

14 Shepherd with AHRI. I also think that there's

15 sort of a lookback concern though too.

16 So if you're a manufacturer and

17 you report someone you may have in the back of

18 your mind, well, if I report this person, DOE

19 investigates and then it turns out that I have

20 had sales in the past to this person which I

21 didn't know this about. But DOE is somehow

22 going to now try and build this case against
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1 me. 

2 So I think that's the other

3 concern that may be there that we have to

4 think about.

5 MR. EISNER: Wouldn't DOE prefer

6 to get the information than to not get it and

7 therefore be willing to provide a hold

8 harmless if you report the information?

9 MR. RAWALD: I'm not going to say

10 that because I can envision a different

11 scenario where a manufacturer knows somebody

12 is a bad actor, but suddenly they see that oh,

13 this guy's going to get caught, he's really

14 just getting too close to the line now. I'm

15 going to turn him in because I don't want to

16 be caught for doing all the stuff that I've

17 been doing with him. I know if I turn him in

18 I'm going to be held harmless for what I was

19 doing.

20 And so while I'm sure most folks

21 in this room would be skeptical of that

22 happening, the people I report to do envision
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1 those kind of bad scenarios.

2 And so they're going to say what

3 about that. I don't want to give the

4 manufacturer a free pass just because they

5 dimed somebody out when they knew it was close

6 to the time he was going to stop.

7 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

8 If, as Elizabeth said, if the routine violator

9 is a DOE decision, you decide someone's a

10 routine violator, up until the time you issue

11 that decision people don't know he's a routine

12 violator.

13 I can envision no manufacturer, no

14 individual wants to make a judgment against

15 someone in a slanderous or libelous fashion

16 and have that come back to them.

17 So until -- so part of the

18 definition or the ground rules we have to get

19 established, is the routine violator, does

20 that label have to come from DOE before any of

21 this can happen.

22 If that's what happens then
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1 everybody is in the clear up until that label. 

2 After that label you've got a problem.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so I

4 think I posed this question in sort of a

5 different light on Tuesday which is we

6 determine company X is a routine violator, but

7 we know that manufacturer Y has been dealing

8 with them for a number of times and actually

9 probably knew about the fact they were

10 routinely violating.

11 So, but we haven't made a

12 determination. So are they in the clear

13 because we didn't make that determination? Or

14 would the manufacturer actually be responsible

15 because they were dealing with the guy who

16 we've now found to be a routine violator?

17 So in other words, is a routine

18 violation finding only good for forward19 looking transactions with an individual? Or

20 does it encompass backward-looking ones,

21 especially if there were many, or fulsome. So

22 I think it's a thorny issue to really
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1 navigate.

2 I could say probably we'd want to

3 have the authority to go backward because of

4 the fact that somebody who had a lot of --

5 somebody who knew they were up to no good but

6 they didn't have a DOE finding against them

7 was like well, I can keep dealing with them

8 until the DOE finds out. 

9 I don't want to encourage that

10 kind of behavior. And so that's just the Doug

11 Rawald's kind of playing this out in my mind

12 thought on it.

13 But I would have to take that back

14 to the folks I work with. But that's the

15 concern there, right? That until we put a

16 flag in the sand it's okay to play with

17 someone who's dirty. And that's not the

18 behavior we want to encourage I think as a

19 group.

20 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

21 Ingersoll Rand. I certainly recognize that.

22 I think the challenge from my
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1 perspective is that -- by allowing it to

2 essentially be the OEM's gut effectively on

3 who may or may not be a routine violator, that

4 introduces a huge amount of subjectivity into

5 the process.

6 It also is then purely about that

7 particular manufacturer. Because we're now

8 not talking about something that has been

9 decided by DOE and is therefore public

10 knowledge.

11 So if you were to play that out

12 that means that potentially we as Ingersoll

13 Rand want to -- we set up our own internal

14 criteria which could well be different from

15 the other manufacturers.

16 Let's say we decided it was going

17 to be very, very strict. So then we tell a

18 particular distributor for the sake of

19 discussion that we are of the opinion that

20 they are likely to be for whatever reason a

21 routine violator.

22 But this is not public so they
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1 simply go to someone else and get product from

2 them. Because they're not privy, that other

3 OEM would not be privy to the same

4 information.

5 While I understand your concern I

6 think it actually is almost a disincentive for

7 people to do that because it would just be a

8 competitive harm in the market at that point.

9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I

10 think this is one of the more complicated

11 parts of this whole process which is why I

12 teed it up on Tuesday. I think it's a lot

13 more complicated than anyone would think

14 reading the rule just coming in here.

15 And I think it really merits a lot

16 of thought.

17 I know we're kind of -- we were

18 making a lot of progress and now we've kind of

19 gone off course a little on this topic that I

20 think is very interesting and really important

21 to me. 

22 I just don't want to absorb
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1 everyone's energy with that topic as we end

2 today. 

3 Maybe we could say yes, we have a

4 lot to talk about here and let's do a little

5 more thinking about it and come back next week

6 and talk about it some more. And go back down

7 to the list.

8 Because I think we've kind of

9 veered from whistleblowing to this very

10 important topic.

11 MR. PORTER: Doug, this is Steve

12 Porter, Johnstone Supply. I really think it

13 would be extremely difficult for a

14 manufacturer or distributor to be certain on

15 any of these issues until that equipment is

16 fully installed.

17 It would be highly, highly more

18 likely that it's going to be a contractor that

19 comes across it than anybody else that would

20 be qualified to even submit a whistleblowing

21 act.

22 I mean, I just don't see getting
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1 involved. Once they're out the door and it's

2 out the door, you know, that's -- the only

3 person that may come across it is an

4 inspector, a homeowner that maybe has a

5 concern about it, or a contractor. 

6 I don't think there's great risk

7 on the manufacturer that they should be even

8 held accountable for any of that going

9 backwards on it. It just doesn't make any

10 sense to me. Or that they would have the

11 motivation to even act in that fashion. I

12 just don't see it.

13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with

14 Earthjustice. I'm just thinking back to the

15 definition of "knowingly" in the statute. 

16 I think it's helpful to look back

17 at that here because it's "the presumed having

18 of knowledge deemed to be possessed by a

19 reasonable man who acts in the circumstances."

20 And I think reasonability has to

21 be judged in light of the manufacturer, the

22 industry's practices. 
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1 So, I'm hearing generally that

2 manufacturers don't have a lot of information

3 about what happens to the product after it

4 leaves their warehouse. And that seems to be

5 what's reasonable for the industry.

6 So it seems like it would be a

7 pretty exceptional case where the manufacturer

8 really should have known that this product was

9 being misapplied further downstream.

10 That said, I don't want to

11 foreclose the possibility that that may

12 happen. But I do think it's worth emphasizing

13 that it seems like a pretty unusual set of

14 circumstances for it to occur.

15 MR. EISNER: Others?

16 MR. LATTANZI: Doug, this is Matt. 

17 You introduced some very interesting points

18 that really hadn't occurred to me until just

19 now.

20 And I say this sort of half in

21 jest, but I almost feel like I need to bring

22 our corporate attorney back with me next week. 
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1 And certainly I have no plans to

2 do that. I feel there's enough attorneys in

3 the room.

4 (Laughter)

5 MR. LATTANZI: No disrespect to

6 attorneys. I think you guys are doing a great

7 job.

8 At the same time you do have me

9 thinking about some things that really hadn't

10 occurred to me. And as we move forward I can

11 see points in time when I likely would want to

12 consult with our attorneys at NORDYNE.

13 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And I

14 want to make sure everyone understands that if

15 you have to break to talk with someone at your

16 company or you're representing, whoever you're

17 with, that's acceptable. 

18 I mean, there are times when I

19 have to check in with my DOE folks because I

20 speak what I know, but there's a lot of things

21 I don't know as you guys have noticed. So,

22 that's just the way it goes. That's okay.
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1 And that's why I think -- I really

2 want to table the discussion on the routine

3 violator thing until folks can really sit back

4 and talk with the folks they work with about

5 all the things that I brought up here to

6 really get on it.

7 I think maybe turning to the next

8 thing on this list which if we can skip the

9 tariff label would be the record of retention. 

10 I think that maybe would be a little more

11 productive in the limited time we've got left

12 today. If folks would be amenable to that. 

13 Is everyone okay with that? There

14 seems to be general agreement around the room

15 there, Neil.

16 MR. EISNER: Good. Let's go to

17 records retention for a specified time in a

18 specified manner. Anybody want to start it

19 off?

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

21 with ACCA. I think we all know where people

22 feel about record retention in general. It's
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1 a practice or a potential practice.

2 And instead of just creating the

3 situation where we end up talking about that

4 I think it might be helpful if, Doug, you

5 could help us understand just the mechanics of

6 a record retention program. 

7 In other words, potential cost,

8 time-line, implementation, things like that.

9 And I say that because if this is

10 something that makes sense but it's just not

11 practical we may not be well served by

12 discussing this over and over again.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

14 I've given this a lot of thought. And I

15 especially liked what we heard yesterday from

16 Gary Clark from Goodman about looking to the

17 precedent of what the IRS at least requires

18 folks to keep. Because maybe that could be a

19 good place to start.

20 So I'm going to look at that

21 before our next meeting to come back with

22 folks and say, okay, here's what you have to
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1 have anyway. So, with that in mind we can

2 just see if there's anything additional

3 necessary.

4 But from my sense, what I would

5 need to investigate from an installer point of

6 view would be the place installed and the

7 thing installed and when it was installed. 

8 Those would be the three points of

9 order because when it's installed is important

10 though ostensibly it won't be after too long. 

11 What was installed is important. And where it

12 was installed is important. 

13 So, I don't need an address so

14 much as I need a state, right? I need to know

15 what state it's installed in. So that's how

16 I determine whether it's improperly installed.

17 I need to know what was installed

18 so I can decide whether or not it was

19 compliant. And I need to know the time-line

20 because we have a time-line that matters.

21 So, the serial number is something

22 that people have mentioned and that's really
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1 only important in trying to determine if it

2 was manufactured on a certain date to my

3 opinion. So, that's less important as we get

4 forward into this time-line.

5 The question is that in the short

6 term when we have the sell-through that date

7 of manufacturer is important because if it's

8 manufactured on December 29 versus January 2

9 and installed on January 25 makes a

10 difference. So, if not the serial number, the

11 date of manufacture. 

12 But there would have to be some

13 sort of way to verify that which the serial

14 number is really the most explicit way to do

15 that from my point of view. So that's the way

16 I see it from an installer point of view.

17 From a distributor, it's more of a

18 we sold the thing to who and it went where to

19 their knowledge. Like where was it sold. So

20 they obviously don't know where it ended up,

21 but if they delivered it someplace, that added

22 piece of information would be of value to the
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1 Department.

2 So those are the things that I

3 would see as being most important from that

4 point of view. 

5 And then from the manufacturer

6 point of view I feel like I already get enough

7 information from them so I probably don't need

8 anything. And the regional standards from

9 that so it doesn't need to be made explicit.

10 So, from the manufacturers maybe

11 we'd be asking them what they shipped where. 

12 Can you tell us where you shipped all your 13

13 SEER whatevers, but much more narrowly.

14 Just to be clear, information

15 requests that are broad are not productive,

16 right? So when I ask for things I want them

17 to be targeted.

18 So retaining of records, however,

19 needs to be broad enough to answer the

20 question. So the retaining is probably more

21 burdensome than the production that I would

22 ask for.
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1 But the production requests I have

2 at least helps you understand what I want

3 retained.

4 And you asked how long. I don't

5 see us pursuing -- I think the statute of

6 limitations may bar us from going beyond 5

7 years. So I think a 5-year would be a maximum

8 threshold. That's just me spitballing with

9 you with what I think would be acceptable with

10 the Department. 

11 But we can talk about a shorter

12 time frame if that's more acceptable,

13 especially if that's consistent with the IRS

14 which I think is a good, as I mentioned

15 before, a good starting point. So I'm going

16 to go back and look at that. But that's kind

17 of my sense.

18 Certainly longer than a year. I

19 think that would be too short. But that's

20 kind of how I'm looking at things.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So Doug, this is

22 Gary. I think it's important when we talk
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1 about retention of records to understand what

2 type of records we're going to be having. And

3 you addressed that a little bit. 

4 I'd like to focus on your comment

5 with regard to installing contractors. 

6 So, let's say I'm an HVAC

7 contractor in Yreka, California which is close

8 to the Oregon border. And I buy a non9 compliant piece of equipment. And I send you

10 a little note and I say I installed it in

11 Oregon. Maybe more specifically Medford,

12 Oregon.

13 How are you going to know whether

14 what I said is true or not? You have --

15 there's no way in any case to audit or

16 validate that information lacking the

17 installation address.

18 MR. RAWALD: No, I think, Gary,

19 you're right in that I wouldn't be able just

20 to say okay, well, they say California so

21 they're good in California.

22 So, what folks need to understand
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1 is the more information that I'm able to get

2 the more I'm able to tell things which helps

3 me even the playing field more. So I think

4 that Gary's point is well taken.

5 So I agree that assuming that the

6 non-compliant guy is not going to tell me, oh

7 yes, I installed that in California when he

8 knows that it shouldn't have been sold in

9 California. And he tells me installed it in

10 Oregon. How do I make sure that that's

11 appropriate? So, that's a correct point.

12 MR. WHITE: So this is Chuck

13 White. Clarification for me. When you talk

14 records retention I think of that as I have

15 them in my office and if you call me up and

16 say I was at Mrs. Smith's house and I found a

17 unit. Did you install it? I can produce

18 records that say yes, I did, and here's what

19 I put in according to my records.

20 Not I'm going to send them to you

21 wholesale so you have a large warehouse full

22 of records from everyone across the southern
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1 region.

2 And if you come to me and say

3 there's a house in Yreka, California, I can't

4 very well tell you no, no, that house in

5 Oregon. If you know the location where it is

6 then you come to me and say did you do the job

7 and I say yes or no.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Chuck, this is

9 Gary. I think you raised an excellent point.

10 Another dimension of this is not

11 only the type of record and the length of

12 retention, but the location of where the

13 record is kept. 

14 And it might need to be reported

15 to some central database. It might need to be

16 available locally.

17 But based on what I heard

18 yesterday from the distributors and the

19 contractor folks about the wide variation in

20 the way records are either kept or not kept.

21 I don't know that we would have a

22 lot of confidence in being able to find those
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1 records if we were to count on them being

2 available locally if requested.

3 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

4 As a clarification, I'm not offering to send

5 my records to a central database location. My

6 records are my records. They're confidential. 

7 If you come to me and ask a

8 related question in an investigation I'm more

9 than happy to cooperate and produce whatever

10 records I have.

11 And further to be clear, the

12 system in the business that I own, I can

13 search by customer. I can't search by

14 individual parts. So I have Mrs. Smith and

15 Mr. Jones. And if you come to me and say did

16 you sell this unit with a serial number I --

17 maybe. 

18 But if you tell me it's at Mr.

19 Smith's house, I can look at Mr. Smith's job

20 and tell you, yes, I worked for Mr. Smith and

21 by my records this is what I put in.

22 And it may have been that unit you
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1 reference, may have been a different unit. 

2 Whether somebody came after me and changed it

3 again I can't tell you.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary

5 again. Not wanting to speak for Doug, but I

6 would assume that Doug's obligation is to be

7 able to know where a particular product went.

8 That is, whether it went into a

9 compliant or non-compliant area. And Mr.

10 Jones doesn't help us in that regard because

11 you installed a unit there for sure and you

12 can tell us about it, but we don't know

13 whether that compliant or non-compliant unit

14 that left trains, factory wound up in

15 California or Oregon.

16 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth from

17 NRDC.

18 When I think about record

19 retention I think about it more from a

20 perspective of assessing compliance at some

21 level. And not an obligation to send data to

22 the Department of Energy, but upon request
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1 that you would be able to provide the

2 installations that you have done, or from a

3 distributor the shipments that you have --

4 transactions that you've had over a course of

5 the last quarter, the last year, or at some

6 level.

7 And absent the ability to provide

8 those records is, in fact, a violation. Or

9 some level of -- otherwise I don't think it's

10 effective for Doug to go to a truck and say I

11 need to know where this serial number was

12 installed because I would assume that he

13 actually knew where -- knew the serial number.

14 But I think in terms of you

15 retaining your records in the event that you

16 needed to supply the Department of Energy with

17 information on your practices over the course

18 of a year, I think that is a minimum level of

19 requirement to be able to assess compliance

20 for this rule.

21 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. 

22 So, Chuck, in response to your question. By
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1 record retention I certainly mean records that

2 are retained, not produced. So I don't want

3 your business records either in toto.

4 What we do have that may, once

5 again, provide some illumination and maybe

6 provide at least some thought on a path

7 forward that could be a different idea and

8 that we haven't had yet.

9 So, manufacturers certify the

10 compliance of individual basic models with the

11 standard that applies. What they do when they

12 do that is they fill out a spreadsheet and it

13 says the model number and a couple of other

14 pieces of information and then it lists the

15 performance of that model.

16 And every year they submit that

17 spreadsheet to me saying I swear that this is

18 what I'm building and this is true and

19 correct.

20 And then occasionally I will look

21 at that spreadsheet and I will say oh,

22 something about this looks amiss, or there's
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1 some reason for me to follow up on it.

2 I'm going to ask about model X, Y

3 and Z. So then I will ask manufacturer Acme

4 to provide me the information, test data

5 regarding model X, Y and Z and they'll produce

6 such data. So they're required to retain the

7 records of that model's testing and produce

8 them upon request.

9 So, they're not giving it to me

10 unasked, but when asked upon they have to

11 easily be able to get that information and

12 provide it to me.

13 If they can't, then I have the

14 ability to charge money for their failure to

15 comply with the request as Elizabeth noted. 

16 So that's the teeth of the failure to comply. 

17 So there's both the requirement

18 that you keep your records, and if you're

19 unable to produce them when asked then you're

20 going to have to start paying some money for

21 not being able to produce those records. 

22 So there may be some sort of need
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1 if we're going to have a record retention

2 requirement to have that.

3 What also may be worth considering

4 is some sort of annual reporting of number of

5 installs in a region or something like that. 

6 I wouldn't even begin to -- I haven't really

7 thought it through. But that would be akin to

8 what's being reported now. 

9 That would be the kind of thing

10 that at most we'd want reported to us on a

11 regularized basis as opposed to every sale and

12 transaction and what you're doing. That seems

13 like an overwhelming amount of information and

14 a little bit intrusive for my liking for me to

15 recommend to the Department to do that.

16 So, I want to think this over some

17 more. But from a record retention point of

18 view what I want, I want you to have the

19 records to be able to do that.

20 What I really also want to do is I

21 don't want to create an incentive for people

22 to say if I keep bad records I escape
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1 scrutiny. Because that's the problem, right? 

2 So I don't want to encourage contractors to

3 keep bad records because they'll never get

4 caught then. So I might as well just make a

5 sloppy book of this because then nothing will

6 ever happen.

7 So we have to think about how to

8 not do that without creating a burden on the

9 good guy to have some nice extra paperwork and

10 he's up now till 2 o'clock in the morning as

11 opposed to midnight doing paperwork every

12 night as I understand from the scenarios you

13 guys have described to me.

14 So, I'm looking to you for kind of

15 a solution as far as what is ordinarily kept,

16 what could be kept and what would be an

17 incentive to keep them correctly so that we

18 can produce them when asked upon and yet still

19 when those who don't produce them face some

20 sort of consequences for failing to produce

21 them in some way.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary
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1 again. So, the part I'm struggling with is

2 how you can check, given an audit situation

3 and local record retention up and down the

4 market chain to make sure that we've got a

5 complete picture.

6 So, let's say I'm the contractor

7 in Crescent City. You tell me that I'm going

8 to be audited so I produce my records and I

9 say that I purchased 20 compliant units and

10 here's where I installed them around

11 California. And I purchased two non-compliant

12 units and put them in Oregon. Everything's

13 fine.

14 Well, how do you know that maybe I

15 didn't purchase more than 22 units. I

16 purchased a non-compliant unit for which I

17 don't have a record because I threw it away. 

18 And I installed it in California. 

19 So, you need somehow to be able to

20 tie what the contractor says to what

21 distributors say this contractor purchased in

22 order to close the loop, to get a complete
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1 picture.

2 MR. RAWALD: No, Gary, you're 100

3 percent correct. And so, once again, talking

4 about what we do currently.

5 So manufacturers, if they are non6 compliant we tell the manufacturers hey, you

7 have to tell us how many of these things you

8 manufactured and sold and who you sold them

9 to.

10 And then we'll often go to the

11 people they sold them to and say tell us how

12 many you bought. And we'll put the two lists

13 together and say okay, they look the same or

14 they look different. 

15 And if they look different then I

16 have a concern. Somebody is wrong and so then

17 I follow up on that. So I would want to do

18 that.

19 The question that's more thorny

20 with the contractor is how do I know what

21 distributor he's buying from, or does he leave

22 off the list the one guy that he buys all his
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1 non-compliant products so I don't even know

2 that that guy's out there as someone to

3 suspect to ask information from in the first

4 place. 

5 That's a more difficult question

6 for me to ferret out as an investigator. To

7 figure out how do I find the person they're

8 not reporting to me as the salesperson of the

9 things that are bad that he's not reporting to

10 me about either.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary

12 again. I totally agree. We've got to find

13 the least burdensome way to be able to answer

14 all those questions and know with confidence

15 that we can determine compliance in the field.

16 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

17 Johnstone Supply. Since I was thrown under

18 the bus earlier I will return the favor.

19 (Laughter)

20 MR. PORTER: And I know they're

21 not going to like this, so. 

22 Warranties are turned in by the
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1 homeowner. It's already done, it's already

2 processed. In aggregate, not giving out any

3 homeowner confidential information is

4 manufacturing honoring any warranties on that

5 equipment in states that don't qualify?

6 That gives you a pointer. That

7 gives you data that already exists. That

8 gives you a large, large sample size to see if

9 anybody is in compliance. Or out of

10 compliance I should say. Without anybody else

11 having to do anything different in the chain.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary,

13 Steve. That sounds like a really great idea

14 except for two things maybe.

15 One, it would be great if more

16 people sent in warranty information so that

17 there's a relatively complete list.

18 And secondly, I would imagine that

19 the majority, the vast majority of this

20 equipment never needs any action under

21 warranty because it works just fine.

22 MR. PORTER: You can come do my
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1 warranty for me then, Gary. 

2 That's not true. It's not like an

3 appliance at all. If it was we wouldn't sell

4 any parts. 

5 The simple fact is that a sample

6 size if I remember correctly, and I'm sure it

7 varies by manufacturer, but I would say I

8 believe I heard the number was 10 percent.

9 You know, Nielsen does 400 TV

10 viewers to get the ratings right. You do not

11 need every unit installed, address, name. You

12 need a sample to point in the right direction.

13 Even if 10 percent of the

14 homeowners applied for their warranty that's

15 a large number.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, this is Gary

17 again. That's the best idea I've heard yet.

18 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 

19 Steve, I like that idea. I think that the

20 ability to leverage warranty information could

21 potentially be fruitful.

22 The only question that I have on
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1 what you've just proposed, are we penalizing

2 the homeowner at all by then their product

3 being out of warranty for a contractor's mis4 installation? Did I misunderstand?

5 MR. PORTER: I think you

6 misunderstood.

7 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon from

8 HARDI. I think I heard yesterday that the

9 manufacturers would still honor a warranty if

10 a product -- I think they would be obligated

11 to still honor the warranty so the homeowner

12 wouldn't be penalized.

13 MS. NOLL: So this would be a

14 means of identification. Thank you.

15 MR. EISNER: We were talking about

16 yesterday what kind of data we have. Do you

17 have any data indicating that there is the

18 same likelihood to get a warranty returned

19 from someone who installed the wrong illegal

20 equipment in the house as there is from

21 someone who installed legal equipment in the

22 house?
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1 In other words, if they know

2 they're installing an illegal piece of

3 equipment will they return the warranty?

4 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst

5 from Lennox. Go ahead.

6 MR. EISNER: They register with

7 you.

8 MR. HURST: I think the warranty

9 filing rates by contractors will go down

10 significantly if you start combing that data

11 for anomalies. 

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 

13 Well, who files the warranty anyway? Is it

14 the contractor or the homeowner?

15 MR. HURST: Yes.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: It could be

17 either, I guess.

18 MR. HURST: Well, it's not an

19 uncommon practice. And I think it was

20 mentioned last meeting where oftentimes the

21 contractor will file the warranty and put

22 their address as the consumer location. So
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1 that will lead you back to the contractor.

2 I think if the contractors know, 

3 there's one in the room, and the association

4 knows that that's going to be the happy

5 hunting ground, the hunting ground dries up.

6 And I'm just, you know, I guess it

7 would be good for the manufacturers because

8 our warranty claims would go down because

9 nobody would register their warranty. But I

10 just don't think that's the outcome we want to

11 pursue.

12 So, just be careful of the

13 unintended consequences of using that as your

14 --

15 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

16 Johnstone Supply. That could be said for

17 anything that you put a requirement on. I

18 mean, what you're saying is then every time

19 you do something somebody is going to cheat. 

20 That's what we've said all along, right?

21 MR. HURST: Yes, but there's

22 potential harm to the consumer that --
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1 MR. PORTER: But what you're

2 saying is -- John, what you were saying

3 yesterday is the truth which was about

4 cheaters are going to cheat. 

5 So you're not going to get correct

6 information out of a cheater. It's like

7 somebody robbed your house, they didn't leave

8 a business card.

9 So you have to have somewhere or

10 some level of data that's going to be put in

11 by homeowners. And there's some that's going

12 to be put in by contractors. 

13 But that gives you a pointer is

14 what I'm saying. There's data to see if you

15 have a pointer. There is no solution that is

16 perfect. That's a pointer.

17 MR. HURST: No, I agree with you,

18 Steve. You're absolutely right. I would like

19 to focus on a program that precludes people

20 from cheating.

21 What I don't want to do is frisk

22 shoppers as they walk out of the store to see
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1 if they stole merchandise. I would prefer to

2 put cameras up in the store to give them a

3 second thought about cheating in the first

4 place.

5 And so there's really two paths we

6 can take. We can catch the bad guys, or we

7 can structure a program that people that would

8 have an impetus to cheat just don't do it

9 because they think they're going to get caught

10 and the penalty is high and the repercussions

11 are great. That's my preference for a

12 program.

13 I have no desire to go out and set

14 up an investigative unit within my company. 

15 I have no desire to put one person on combing

16 through our databases to catch cheaters which

17 are also our customers.

18 What I'd prefer is that we have

19 people installing the right stuff, doing the

20 right thing, where we don't have to deal with

21 cheating at all.

22 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter. 
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1 Perhaps we could go to one national standard

2 then. 

3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

4 with ACCA. I thought we tried.

5 Since I raised the issue about

6 warranties filed by contractors and why

7 sometimes that occurs where they put in their

8 own address.

9 Let me reiterate it. We have a

10 number of contractors, big contractors who do

11 this. And that's why warranty information may

12 not be reliable for this purpose.

13 And the reason they do this is

14 because they have found that there are certain

15 manufacturers who will take the information

16 filed by the warranty and share it with their

17 more preferred dealers.

18 And so in order to avoid losing

19 their customer base to their competitors they

20 do it this way. And that's the fact.

21 MR. PORTER: And if that's the

22 case that's what I would do.
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1 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with

2 Earthjustice. I'm wondering if there's sort

3 of a different approach we might take with

4 some of this. 

5 The way I think of information

6 retention isn't so much identifying a

7 violator, it's identifying the scope of a

8 violation. 

9 So, if a contractor comes out and

10 sees that there's a unit already installed out

11 there that's non-compliant it seems that you

12 wouldn't necessarily need to go right to the

13 contractors in the area. You'd go back up to

14 the distributor and try to identify where in

15 the chain that particular unit came down.

16 So, you wouldn't necessarily need

17 the contractor to have the serial number for

18 the unit because you'd already know the serial

19 number of the non-compliant unit. You'd know

20 it was at Mrs. Smith's house which is where it

21 was installed. So maybe the existing records

22 that the contractors are keeping are okay.
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1 I'm also wondering in addition to

2 sort of identifying, you know, once we've

3 already identified that there's a non4 compliant unit out there we need information. 

5 We need to look at the records for

6 that contractor or distributor or whoever

7 we're looking at to see how large the

8 potential scope of the problem is.

9 But I'm wondering if there's also

10 a role for record retention in sort of the

11 aggregate industry-level data, either through

12 AHRI or HARDI to the extent that there is more

13 information out there that wouldn't have to go

14 to DOE in sort of a fine grain every time you

15 install a product, but just annually

16 industrywide, you know, how many SEER 13 units

17 are out there. How many went to different

18 states. 

19 Is that sort of a feasible thing

20 to try to look for?

21 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

22 Rheem. So I can at least speak for the AHRI
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1 data. I don't know that it shows -- you know,

2 we could supply, we do actually supply data

3 that shows shipments by state. But that has

4 -- but that has no relevance on where the unit

5 is installed.

6 In fact, there would be a major

7 disconnect if you tried to do something based

8 upon that data. 

9 For all the reasons that we've gone

10 over the last few times. 

11 MR. EISNER: That would also be

12 true, I assume, of warranty information if it

13 was filed by the contractor with the

14 contractor's address. Wouldn't it? You don't

15 know whether it's going to a state where it's

16 legal or illegal. If it's a border.

17 MR. GIBBONS: Yes, and I hate to

18 sit here -- this is John from Carrier. I hate

19 to be the devil's advocate, but P.O. boxes are

20 fairly cheap. So you have one on one side of

21 the river and one on the other. To register.

22 MR. EISNER: That raises another
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1 question that concerns many of you which is if

2 the manufacturer is getting warranty

3 information does that then mean you have

4 knowledge of it being installed by somebody in

5 the wrong place.

6 MR. HURST: Or even worse, you

7 could have a contractor who uses his own

8 address as the warranty registration site. 

9 They may have complied with the law, but now

10 they're identifying themselves as being a

11 violator because they're registering to the

12 wrong side of the river, if you will.

13 So, it would be isolated cases but

14 you could have a contractor that does that.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I

16 liked Steve's suggestion. Let's go back and

17 try and look at the positive part of this and

18 see if there aren't remedies for all of the

19 shortcomings that we're finding with the

20 warranty card system.

21 That's a system that's already in

22 place. And perhaps if there's some way of
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1 addressing these issues we can make that

2 already-in-place system work for us and not

3 have to deal with something more onerous.

4 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt

5 Lattanzi with NORDYNE. With respect to

6 utilizing the warranty systems a couple of

7 points.

8 Gary Clark said this well

9 yesterday. We provide assurances to our

10 customers that this data won't be provided to

11 third parties for whatever use. That's one

12 point.

13 The other point is every

14 manufacturer's system for warranty

15 registration is different. No two of us do

16 this the same way. Generally we do it over

17 the web. Some may accept a mailed-in

18 registration. The terms are different. 

19 That's a second point.

20 The third point is for the State

21 of California this is something that we are

22 consistent on, and additionally the Province
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1 of Quebec which is not relevant here. But

2 those two areas, registration is not required. 

3 And I don't know exactly how --

4 I'm not an attorney -- how exactly California

5 gets away with this, but the upgraded warranty

6 is in fact the warranty within the State of

7 California regardless of whether the equipment

8 is registered or not. So that's the third

9 point.

10 And then lastly I'd say I guess

11 I'm really not in favor of exploring the

12 warranty registration as a source of data and

13 information to support an enforcement.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is

15 Gary again. We're back to the postcard.

16 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth.

17 MR. PORTER: I think you should

18 mail one to everybody in California and let

19 them know about this law.

20 (Laughter)

21 MS. NOLL: So --

22 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter. 
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1 I think the -- again, the amount of data or

2 how much data you have. Or you're looking for

3 pointers is what you would want to look to

4 comb.

5 And even though I know that the

6 reporting that you do, Karen, and others do,

7 the manufacturers, the OEMs do, although it

8 may not end up -- you know, you could ship to

9 Chicago and it could end up in Kentucky,

10 right? Very easily.

11 And so you're also going to have,

12 you know, you have past data to compare. You

13 have a law going in effect. And by doing some

14 data-mining or looking at that data you could

15 still find something that may look like an

16 anomaly out of it that would cause you to know

17 different. It would start to look like a

18 steady run rate. 

19 And then anything that didn't,

20 that showed up all of a sudden you see, you

21 know, Kentucky looking a lot different than it

22 did before. It would be a pointer that there
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1 may be something going on.

2 So I don't think -- you can still

3 use that data as we do data like this all the

4 time with distribution where you're looking at

5 things like that. You're looking for

6 something that just seems out of the norm or

7 the run, right?

8 So month after month it's going to

9 have somewhat of a drumbeat to it. And you're

10 really looking for the anomalies out of the

11 data. 

12 MR. EISNER: Elizabeth, you

13 started to say something?

14 MS. NOLL: That is what I was

15 going to say.

16 MS. HARIHARAN: This is Johanna

17 from Department of Energy. This is just

18 throwing something out there.

19 And to give you a little

20 background I'm from Akron, Ohio originally. 

21 And I've got a friend, we'll call him Mario. 

22 And he can -- you call him up and you're like,
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1 hey, I need a new air conditioner. He is

2 going to go out of his way to find you the

3 cheapest air conditioner possible. He's not

4 going to -- he's going to ride right under the

5 law.

6 And to me the only way to, you

7 know, regulate this is to maybe have the

8 person who buys the air conditioner to sign a

9 waiver form, or something that would trace it

10 back to them. Because that's the only --

11 because otherwise you wouldn't be able to

12 disregulate it. 

13 So, I guess what you would have to

14 have is have somebody sign a piece of paper

15 saying I'm not going to take this over the

16 border, or I'm not going to install this. I

17 under 14 SEER in the South, 13 SEER in the

18 North. 

19 It's not going to, you know,

20 people are still going to do it but at least

21 then they have the understanding and they have

22 the signature on something. It's just an
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1 idea.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. We

3 considered that for swimming pool pumps in

4 California which, like regional air

5 conditioners, have an application sensitivity.

6 And the idea would be when the

7 contractor buys the swimming pool pump out of

8 distribution they'd sign the little piece of

9 paper that says I'm not going to use this non10 compliant pump for residential filtration

11 purposes for which it's not allowed.

12 That hasn't happened. But if it

13 did there would be no way to do any sort of a

14 sample or audit or quality assurance program

15 to find out whether that contractor signing

16 the document was living up to his promise or

17 not.

18 Because we don't know where the

19 product went and how it was applied.

20 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. So

21 we heard from Karen to speak to AHRI's

22 database on shipment.
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1 Is there a corollary database that

2 HARDI has that would give a state or region

3 that could produce some sort of trend analysis

4 as to where various pieces of equipment are

5 going?

6 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with

7 HARDI. AHRI, it's my understanding to be a

8 member of AHRI reporting is required. It's

9 not, it's voluntary? Okay. It's my

10 understanding though that all of the OEMs at

11 the table participate in that.

12 There's no such requirement or

13 program that HARDI runs where a statistically

14 significant number would be able to get you

15 any sort of information like that today.

16 MR. RAWALD: Gary, before you jump

17 in, this is Doug. So we've really been

18 talking a lot about different approaches to

19 producing information that could be useful to

20 the Department in trying to figure out where

21 to look and how to look.

22 I guess where I want to approach
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1 it from a point of view was, does everyone at

2 least agree with the baseline premise that in

3 order for me to effectively be able to enforce

4 these standards I have to be able to obtain

5 records from various parties in the market

6 chain? Is there a general consensus on that?

7 I'm seeing all the manufacturers

8 agree but I'm not necessarily seeing the

9 contractors or the distributors. 

10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

11 with ACCA. I wasn't nodding my head, but I

12 wasn't disagreeing.

13 I think the way you laid it out,

14 the basic elements for you for an

15 investigation require I think it's three basic

16 things, installation location, date of

17 location for at least a short period of time

18 and location, or -- I'm sorry, the equipment

19 itself for the SEER value.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. And

21 if I could add I don't think every piece of

22 equipment in every installation needs to be
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1 reported. But a random statistically

2 significant sample needs to be available. 

3 And when I say random I mean one

4 such that those wishing not to get caught

5 can't escape the system by simply not

6 reporting.

7 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So

8 we're talking about records for kind of

9 different purposes.

10 So there are ones that seem useful

11 for me for targeting for a proactive

12 investigation, figuring out where to look. 

13 And there are ones that once I

14 know of an allegation of violation, in order

15 for me to follow up on them I have to be able

16 to drill down on these particular instances to

17 figure out where this person is. 

18 And then also figure out the scope

19 of that violation. So I have to not only find

20 out about that one alleged violation, but are

21 there multiple ones by that same party in

22 order to discover if that person is a routine
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1 violator.

2 And then of course there's a

3 question of how do I know that those records

4 I'm looking at are genuine and complete.

5 What we do in our current

6 enforcement cases once again is when we find

7 something non-compliant we then make the

8 manufacturer produce the records that say all

9 of that particular item. And they swear the

10 truth and the completeness of the information

11 they provide.

12 And then we go out and we

13 oftentimes double-check that information by

14 going to who they sold to and make sure that

15 they do correlate. 

16 So, is there some sort of process

17 where -- because, so listening to what Chuck

18 said before where he can only pull up the

19 individual that had it. 

20 So if I knew that, well, Chuck put

21 it in Mrs. Smith's house and Mrs. Smith is

22 non-compliant he can confirm to me when put to
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1 the brass tacks that, yes, that yes, that was

2 a bad one.

3 But then he wouldn't be able to go

4 in his database and then pull up for me all

5 the other bad installations he had. I would

6 have to ask Chuck for everything else. And

7 then I would have to comb through those

8 records and figure out what else is bad.

9 That's kind of what I'm hearing

10 and that's not my preferred approach at all

11 because I don't want to be overly burdensome

12 to him or to me.

13 So I'm looking is there another

14 way to go about this from the point of view of

15 -- from the contractor point of view of record

16 retention.

17 And I don't think this needs to be

18 answered right now. We have time over the

19 weekend to think more about this.

20 I guess what I'm proposing is

21 everybody agrees as a baseline that there

22 needs to be some sort of record retention
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1 requirement in order for me to effectively

2 enforce this.

3 And so perhaps I can go back and

4 better articulate what I think would work for

5 us. And you folks can go back and better

6 articulate what you can make available,

7 understanding better my needs.

8 And we can come back next meeting

9 and see if we can meet in the middle

10 somewhere.

11 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

12 Ingersoll Rand. I think maybe just a

13 clarification, but I think it is relevant.

14 You just laid out the different

15 sort of needs that records could fulfill. And

16 I think so it's not really, truly just a

17 matter of record retention. It's also we

18 talked about the issue of proactive submission

19 of some forms of information in addition to --

20 as I understood it, in addition to retention. 

21 Is that right?

22 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So
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1 I'm not pushing for the moment any sort of

2 proactive submission. I have opined at least

3 earlier about the idea of something that came

4 through our certification reports that could

5 be submitted. 

6 I haven't thought through the

7 pluses and minuses of that from the

8 Department's point of view, nor what burdens

9 that would place on the individuals to do

10 that.

11 And I don't know ultimately how

12 effective that information would be in gaining

13 me anything. So I want to think that through

14 a little more.

15 But the proactive information that

16 we're talking about, the warranties, really

17 seems to me more for two purposes. One, to

18 kind of target trends so I can know in a case

19 scenario I can be looking what's going on.

20 And two, the warranty information

21 can kind of help me to verify the information

22 I'm getting from the contractor. If the
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1 warranty information and the contract

2 information are not lining up, it's another

3 indication I'm not getting a complete picture

4 from the contractor which would be concerning

5 and a cause for me to dig further into the

6 contractor's records. 

7 So, but that's just me thinking

8 about it at the moment. And so there are all

9 multiple purposes.

10 But I'm not pushing for at the

11 moment any sort of actual proactive

12 submission, though if the group feels it has

13 some sort of value I definitely want to think

14 more about that.

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I

16 just want to stress this difference between

17 data retention and data submission. 

18 I recall the discussions we had on

19 furnace waivers for non-condensing furnaces.

20 It involved some of the manufacturers in HEA

21 and a bunch of other people. 

22 We had a lot of discussion that
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1 evolved to the point of saying if you wanted

2 to do a non-compliant furnace which is the

3 analogue of this but for the North a

4 contractor would have to fill out a form that

5 documented the need for a pre-approved waiver,

6 and would have to retain that for inspection.

7 But it would not have to be

8 submitted. It wouldn't clog Doug's mailbox. 

9 But it would be a tool that would be available

10 if there was ever a challenge whether this was

11 a waiver that complied with the proposed

12 requirements.

13 And I certainly would find it an

14 approach worth exploring that we have a

15 retention requirement, whether that's at

16 contractor, distributor, manufacturer, or some

17 combination, for X years that can be queried

18 in case other information suggests there is a

19 problem. Other information, for example,

20 being the drive-by inspection for a SEER 13 in

21 the South. 

22 So that kind of a parallel
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1 reinforcing process that puts the

2 investigation responsibility on DOE, but a

3 record retention responsibility where the

4 records live might add up to something that

5 gives us the assurances we're looking for.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary

7 again. I'd like to address Doug's interest in

8 some sort of statistical analysis approach and

9 just think about the numbers.

10 So, let me go back to being the

11 HVAC contractor in Yreka. I can probably make

12 a pretty good living if I installed one of

13 these things every week as a single individual

14 contractor, 52 a year. Maybe not one every

15 week but two some weeks and none others. 

16 Anyway, 50 units a year.

17 In a field of 7 million units

18 being sold annually 50 units a year isn't

19 going to establish any kind of a trend or be

20 seen. So, you know, I could install them all

21 illegally and a high-level statistical

22 analysis I don't think would ever identify
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1 that.

2 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

3 That was kind of what I was -- on an

4 individual reported violation at a site I

5 think the contractor is very helpful with the

6 records he has. 

7 But for a significant sample for

8 statistical analysis unless you're dealing

9 with a very large contractor you're just not

10 going to have the numbers from an individual

11 contractor. 

12 You might be able to come to a

13 contractor and say you did Mrs. Smith's house

14 wrong and now I want to look through all your

15 records, and that might tell you what that

16 contractor is doing, but I don't know that

17 that -- even if you did that, that that's

18 significant enough to extrapolate across the

19 industry.

20 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. I

21 wouldn't want to use that this way. So,

22 presumably if I'm asking someone for their
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1 records it's because I'm investigating that

2 person. 

3 And so this kind of leads into the

4 consequences which we'll obviously have to

5 talk about next week since we're almost out of

6 time today.

7 If there's a consequence of a per8 installation fine then of course I want to

9 know how many were installed.

10 If we're talking about labeling

11 someone as a routine violator and I can tell

12 that they've done at least three or four of

13 these things, and we feel that's sufficient,

14 then I don't need to keep digging into those

15 records because I've got enough to make that

16 assessment.

17 So, some of that, some of what I

18 would ask you to produce would depend on what

19 kind of consequences we're talking about. But

20 from a retention point of view I need to have

21 at least those records there so I could look

22 at them. 
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1 And so it's just helpful for me to

2 understand, once again, folks want us to at

3 least understand that there is going to be a

4 record retention requirement necessary

5 seemingly to make this work.

6 MR. EISNER: Craig Messmer, you

7 had a question?

8 MR. MESSMER: Yes, I just wanted

9 to get a clarification. Are we talking about

10 we're trying to avoid having products from the

11 North being sold in the South and Southwest? 

12 Or we need to maintain a database everywhere? 

13 Because really any unit is good in

14 the North and what records -- the record

15 requirements for the North should be far less

16 than what you might need in California, for

17 example. 

18 And likewise, any unit that would

19 meet California requirements, that's good for

20 everywhere. So the requirements for record21 keeping on those units should be less than

22 other units. That's just a comment.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right, Craig. This

2 is Doug. And I keep coming back to the idea

3 that we need to make sure that we -- as I use

4 the term now the aperture to what really

5 matters.

6 So, in this instance what we

7 really want to know is where 13's or those

8 that are below 14's or with the certain EER

9 values, what I neglect to say but it's just so

10 much easier to just focus on 13 and 14 from a

11 linguistic point of view. So, where those are.

12 The question I guess really of the

13 contractors where if we had industry-different

14 requirements for those that were operating in

15 the regions versus those that don't, you know,

16 how would that go over? How would that be

17 executed? 

18 And then how would we ensure that

19 guys who operate kind of over the border are

20 following the rules with the ones they're

21 doing on the south of the border which is the

22 north side of the border? So that's one issue.
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1 So, just some things about it as

2 far as making sure people can actually follow

3 these things clearly and well.

4 I do want to not put burden on

5 guys who don't need it at all. So a guy who's

6 operating entirely in New York and never out

7 of New York, why would he have to have any

8 sort of record retention requirement regarding

9 regional standards when they don't apply to

10 him?

11 I see that. I totally get the

12 belief in that. So I want to make sure we're

13 doing what's right with all that understood.

14 MR. HURST: John Hurst from

15 Lennox. I want to delineate between record

16 retention and sharing of confidential business

17 information.

18 I think speaking on behalf of my

19 company we would be happy to and we do today

20 retain records on where our shipments go from

21 manufacturing to distribution.

22 In one of our businesses we own
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1 our distribution. In another one we don't.

2 We would have information as in

3 the Lennox business where we ship from

4 distribution to the dealer. And I think it's

5 pretty reasonable to assume that the

6 distributor that we ship to in our allied

7 business retains records of where they ship as

8 well.

9 And so if we're talking about

10 retention I'll speak for myself and I'll open

11 it up to other manufacturers, but I don't

12 think we have an issue with record retention. 

13 If the Department comes back with

14 a believed violation or a suspected violation,

15 if you came to me and said we have a suspected

16 violation and we would like to look at where

17 you shipped this product to and who it was

18 sold to I don't think we'd have a problem with

19 sharing that information.

20 However, we would have a challenge

21 with sharing confidential business

22 information, including warranty data.
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1 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. So

2 John, I guess I don't really view this to be

3 a manufacturer problem because I feel like the

4 resources are there at the manufacturer level

5 to retain records. They're a little more

6 clean, they're a little more organized. 

7 And frankly, we already have kind

8 of a jurisdictional issue with you folks. We

9 already have an established practice of what

10 records should be retained and how they should

11 be -- so it's really kind of the folks

12 downstream that the issue really relates to

13 for regional standards.

14 But as far as the sharing of

15 confidential business information the

16 Department does ask people to provide

17 information that's considered confidential. 

18 The practice that we have in place

19 which is codified by the CFR outside of the

20 enforcement rules but would still be in play

21 here is that folks who provide confidential

22 business information provide two copies, one
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1 with the information for the Department and

2 one that is blacked out.

3 If we ever receive a request for

4 that information, we would of course talk to

5 the person that provided the information

6 before providing it, then review the black7 outs, make sure we agree it's confidential,

8 come to an assessment of whether it is indeed

9 confidential under the FOIA provisions, and

10 then produce that information in response to

11 the request.

12 So the Department has a practice

13 of obtaining confidential information. And I

14 would assume that there's plenty of things

15 here we're talking about, especially from the

16 contractor level, that would be confidential

17 and we would treat it the same way.

18 But I don't want anyone to be

19 surprised by the fact that we would at least

20 be continuing that same practice in theory of

21 asking for confidential business information

22 with the guarantee that we'd be taking care of
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1 it in the appropriate and legal fashion.

2 I mean, just so you understand,

3 disclosure of confidential business

4 information violates the Trade Secrets Act. 

5 So, I could be seen as violating that if I

6 were to disclose that information. 

7 So I as the custodian of

8 confidential business information have

9 powerful incentive to make sure it's treated

10 appropriately. And so I think that we all

11 understand that particular provision in my

12 office that we have to make sure we're doing

13 the right thing with the information that we

14 obtain.

15 MR. WHITE: So, this is Chuck

16 White. Not speaking as PHCC at the moment,

17 speaking as a business owner. Anybody want to

18 buy a business?

19 (Laughter)

20 MR. WHITE: Didn't really think

21 so. I kind of wish I'd have thought a little

22 more along these lines earlier. Maybe you
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1 should have asked me that former question

2 before John spoke.

3 So as a business owner I have a

4 Sub S corporation. There are C corps, there's

5 partnerships, proprietors, sole proprietors. 

6 And there are accounting methods of how we

7 live our life. 

8 So, I have a business that takes

9 in money and it sends out money. And if I'm

10 lucky it takes in more than it sends out. 

11 Usually that's a crapshoot.

12 So I have to file taxes. If it's

13 a C corp, the corp has to file a tax. If it's

14 an S corp, the S corp files taxes and that

15 flows through to the partners or the

16 stockholders, shareholders. If it's a

17 partnership, sole proprietor, however that is. 

18 So I have to account for those

19 dollars. And not for you, for the other

20 Department of Uncle Sam around here, one of

21 these buildings.

22 And I have a 3-year plus the open
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1 year factor. And they can come to me and say

2 we believe there was a business deduction in

3 2012 that should not have qualified. So I

4 have to produce the records that justify that.

5 And as I run a business I have

6 what's called cost of goods sold which could

7 involve the labor, involve all the parts I

8 bought, but that's a factor in my balance

9 sheet.

10 So if they're challenging

11 something in that I have to be able to produce

12 my records that show my cost of goods sold if

13 that's what they ask me. So a business is

14 keeping records, or should be, that

15 demonstrate in that time frame.

16 The reality is they're probably

17 keeping more than that because, shoot, we all

18 have file drawers.

19 But I think typically the

20 businesses you're going to run into for tax

21 purposes have this chunk of records because

22 they can come ask me questions really about
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1 anything. 

2 And typically it's -- there's a

3 flag, there's something that triggers it. But

4 I mean, they could do random things and just

5 come in and say justify these numbers. So I

6 don't think it's a stretch to a contractor. 

7 Now, there may be some sole

8 proprietors, there may be some small shops out

9 there that -- and I've talked to people that

10 the way I run my business if there's money in

11 the checking account I'm making money. If

12 there isn't money in the checking account I'm

13 not making money. 

14 There, I'm sure, are some people

15 out there that don't really have good records. 

16 But I would say the majority have really three

17 years of stuff. And that's I think a pretty

18 standard window. And generally it's three

19 years plus the open year. 

20 So when we hit April 15 next year,

21 actually in corporate it's March, but when we

22 hit that a year is going to fall off and we're
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1 going to start moving forward. 

2 So if you're asking records

3 retention, what's reasonable record retention

4 to a contractor I think a 3-year window is

5 going to be a pretty standard business

6 operation from a tax perspective. I've got to

7 do it anyway.

8 MR. RAWALD: Charlie, is that what

9 you think over there? Or do you want to go

10 back and think about it?

11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes, I'd like to

12 go back and talk to my folks. 

13 I mean, one difference between

14 what Chuck described and this would be you're

15 not filing any information about installations

16 to the IRS. So this is a different type of

17 records that you're talking about being

18 retained.

19 And you know, I've talked to a lot

20 of contractors about this. You know, Harvey

21 used the word "query" in terms of looking at

22 records. And I think Chuck talked about it.
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1 It may be difficult for some folks

2 to meet the obligation that you're talking

3 about when the records are requested. And it

4 may be that it may take some time.

5 So let me go back, talk to my

6 folks and get a better sense of what they do

7 and how they do it. And come back.

8 MR. RAWALD: Let me just give you

9 --

10 MR. WHITE: And this is Chuck

11 White again. Charlie's right. The records I

12 have are for tax purposes. They're not

13 necessarily in a form that is searchable for

14 your purposes. But for my business operation

15 they're in a form suitable for that.

16 So, if you came in with specific

17 requests about serial numbers and all that

18 it's going to be a search and find. That's

19 going to take some time.

20 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with

21 Rheem. Let me just tee up a concrete idea. 

22 And really I'm teeing this up to Chuck and
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1 Charlie.

2 For the purposes of the

3 enforcement rule it would be required that

4 contractors must keep a file that identifies

5 the physical address every 13 SEER unit is

6 sold for a period of one year.

7 I don't know if that's even -- you

8 know, it's an extra step.

9 MR. WHITE: It would have to be

10 created. My software program doesn't have

11 something like that. It would have to create

12 something like that. But, again, time,

13 effort. 

14 I operate in northern Indiana. I

15 don't sell any units south of the Ohio River. 

16 So, do I need to document 13 units that I sell

17 in northern Indiana?

18 And I guess stepping back another

19 magnification here and really kind of a little

20 different topic, is this really only

21 applicable to people operating in the South. 

22 And what's the fairness level here.
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1 If I'm a contractor in the North,

2 I have some burdens I'm not exposed to. If

3 I'm a contractor in the North and you want to

4 make it even with me for the people in the

5 South I have some burdens that I'm really not

6 entitled to.

7 I have some mismatch issues with

8 that. And I don't mean to -- just so they're

9 aired.

10 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter. 

11 And I think we have to be really cautious

12 about new forms, new databases, adding

13 percentages of costs that are ultimately going

14 to be borne by the consumer anyway.

15 And I think you have to be really

16 careful about one region being different than

17 another that a contractor would have to

18 maintain. 

19 Then who's -- they would have to

20 be trained and informed on that record-keeping

21 requirement, all of them. And then who's

22 going to do that and how is that going to be
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1 enforced.

2 I mean, it seems you need a more

3 simple, elegant solution to this which is

4 something that is standard that they do now.

5 And sure, there's going to be a

6 contractor that you go into that may not have

7 good record-keeping. But I mean, you almost

8 need to deal with as you get notice of a

9 violation you're acting on the violation. And

10 then you're moving forward and following that

11 chain all the way through.

12 But I don't see where you need to

13 put more burdens or requirements on any of the

14 things other than the data that exists today

15 which you can subpoena me, them, them and get

16 those records today. Right?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I

18 think another way of saying that is, Doug,

19 when we talk about enforcement is there any

20 consideration of whether it needs to be

21 proactive or reactive?

22 Because I think what Steve is
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1 talking about is a system through which DOE

2 would react to notices of violation. 

3 And is DOE's obligation to be just

4 reactive? Or to be both proactive and

5 reactive?

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And

7 before we get to that I think that we have a

8 little bit more basic problem in the room. 

9 Glenn Hourahan, who's Charlie's

10 counterpart and to some extent my exposure to

11 Charlie brainwashed me to thinking that we

12 really almost have two end members in the

13 contracting world. 

14 We've got an awful lot of

15 hardworking people generally incorporated one

16 way or another who are running businesses from

17 1 truck and 3 employees up to 100 or more

18 trucks.

19 And at the other end we've got Joe

20 Six-pack who might be working for Charlie and

21 is doing a little business on the side usually

22 with his employer's tools and undercutting his
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1 employer's prices.

2 Now, to some extent this is

3 parody, but this seems to be the fear that the

4 legitimate contractors have. 

5 What I don't have a sense of is

6 the ratio of installations that are done by

7 real contractors who have real records versus

8 Joe Six-pack. 

9 How many installations are being

10 done as a result of an internet sale, or cash11 only over the counter at some renegade

12 distributors? 

13 And I don't have a sense of

14 whether that's 90 percent versus 10 percent

15 bad guy, 98 versus 2 percent, or it's 75/25. 

16 And I don't know how I can think about it an

17 enforcement system and your proactive/reactive

18 without understanding how many banditos are

19 out there riding the range. Yes, Mario's. 

20 I'm sorry, I'm from Cleveland and that's an

21 upstanding part of the state.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is
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1 Gary. Harvey, I think David Hungerford kind

2 of answered that question for us for

3 California. He was making an estimate, but if

4 I recall what he said yesterday his guess was

5 maybe 50 percent of the condensing unit

6 replacements go in without a permit.

7 Now, if they're going in without a

8 permit they're probably not meeting

9 California's requirement to seal the ducts. 

10 And they're not, therefore, paying the money

11 to seal the ducts, or paying the money to buy

12 the local jurisdiction permit. So, their bid

13 is going to be less expensive.

14 But that gives you a sense for

15 what the order of magnitude might be.

16 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

17 Ingersoll Rand. I'm not sure that that holds

18 nationally. California has extremely unique

19 requirements that can be extremely burdensome

20 and costly requirements. 

21 I don't want to say that because

22 of the California example we're going to
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1 assume that approximately half the contractors

2 are banditos or Mario's, whichever you want to

3 use.

4 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst

5 with Lennox. I would say that the amount that

6 pull permits in California is a lot less. 

7 When I worked for a big box

8 retailer I had a retail program with over 800

9 what I would call qualified dealers. And

10 those qualified dealers that -- and they were

11 dealers. They were aligned with a national

12 manufacturer. They were insured. They had

13 training. They were badged. They groused

14 about the big box retailer's requirement to

15 pull permits and freely admitted that they did

16 not pull permits in the State of California on

17 their other jobs because of the burdensome

18 process.

19 Regarding the percentage of types

20 of dealers, very, very rough numbers but I

21 think in the industry you can look at really

22 kind of three types of dealers.
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1 One would be a marketing type of

2 dealer. Those are the ones that would send

3 out mailers. You see their face on the truck. 

4 Everybody in the neighborhood knows them. 

5 They have a brand.

6 Then there's more of the smaller

7 contractor that is a product-oriented dealer

8 that affiliates with one manufacturer or

9 another. They sell on product features versus

10 heavy marketing. 

11 And then maybe another third is

12 what we would call local access where they buy

13 a product over the counter. 

14 And quite frankly, you can't say

15 good, bad, or indifferent based on those three

16 breakouts. If they buy over the counter they

17 may be a very qualified technician that used

18 to work for a marketing-oriented dealer and

19 they've broken off. And they're starting

20 their new shop and they don't have the capital

21 or the money or the wherewithal to do

22 marketing yet. Or maybe they fail.
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1 But I think if you categorize the

2 dealers you can't say, well, this clump of

3 dealers is unsophisticated. Therefore, they

4 break the law. 

5 I just think these generalizations

6 don't really go anywhere. Because we have

7 some really good customers that are two-truck

8 operations. They're not very sophisticated,

9 but they really take a lot of pride in what

10 they do.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. 

12 I didn't mean to suggest that the California

13 experience was typical of the country. 

14 But let's look at the cause and

15 effect. The cause is that following the

16 regulations in California is more costly. You

17 have to seal the ducts and pay for the permit. 

18 That's why compliance is relatively low.

19 In the scenario we're talking

20 about the compliant equipment is going to be

21 relatively more costly than the non-compliant

22 equipment. I don't know by how much and we
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1 can't really discuss that in this forum. But

2 directionally it's more expensive.

3 So, spinning off California's

4 experience, if we're implementing a system in

5 the South and West that requires more

6 expensive equipment we might expect the

7 compliance to decline.

8 MR. EISNER: If I could, two people

9 have already left. It's almost 3 o'clock. I

10 don't want to have to hold people after 3. 

11 There are a couple of things. 

12 Next week we're meeting here Wednesday and

13 Thursday, this room again. Okay, if we're in

14 a different room we'll make sure that an email

15 gets out.

16 MR. RAWALD: Well, when everyone

17 comes in Brenda will direct you to the right

18 location as she did this week.

19 MR. EISNER: The second thing is

20 we've got a meeting scheduled for October. 

21 Doug has suggested to me that people might

22 have to start thinking about making
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1 reservations if we're going to go with that

2 meeting in October. 

3 Are we prepared to make a decision

4 now on whether we need that meeting? Or do we

5 want to wait until the end of next week's

6 meeting to see what kind of progress we make?

7 MR. RAWALD: And the reason why I

8 wanted to ask the question is because I have

9 no financial liability for buying tickets to

10 that meeting but I know folks here might. And

11 I want to give you guys as much time as

12 possible. 

13 So, as we have two meetings

14 scheduled right now. We have the one next

15 week and we have the one at the end of

16 September. But we held that first week of

17 October aside as a tentative meeting date.

18 And we were making some progress

19 but we still have a lot of thorny things to

20 think through. So I don't know if folks want

21 to wait till the end of next week and say,

22 yes, we think we're going to need that extra
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1 meeting, or if you want to just go ahead and

2 book it now so we can buy tickets. Just let

3 us know your thoughts I guess.

4 MR. WHITE: When you said the

5 first week of October do you have the dates? 

6 Okay, okay. First and second because it's not

7 the full week.

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. It's October 1

9 and 2.

10 MR. EISNER: Anybody think we

11 should decide now, or would you prefer to wait

12 till the end of the meetings next week? 

13 Anybody disagree? Okay, so we'll wait till

14 the end of next week.

15 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. 

16 And I just confirmed that we are back in this

17 room next week. So, it should be easy enough.

18 MR. EISNER: The one thing, I know

19 I've asked for it before and there may be no

20 solutions like that. 

21 Forget the boxes, forget

22 everything you've been talking about today. 
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1 When you put your feet up and think you're

2 going to relax for a few minutes over the

3 weekend think about something that's not what

4 you've done before. How are you going to get

5 the information?

6 Not to identify every violator. 

7 You'll never get that. How are you going to

8 make sure DOE is going to get a sufficient

9 number of violations to make sure they've got

10 a handle on the problem and they're addressing

11 it?

12 As opposed to coming up with

13 something that's going to cost a lot of money

14 for one party but not get you any information

15 that's going to identify anybody who's

16 violating it.

17 Think of something unique,

18 something outrageous. We'll make sure DOE

19 comes up with some kind of an award for the

20 most outrageous one, and double the amount for

21 the most outrageous one that works. Okay? Is

22 that something you can work out over the
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1 weekend?

2 (Laughter)

3 MR. SACHS: I appreciate that and

4 I think it's very helpful, Neil. But I don't

5 think I can address that with the additional

6 concern of trying to not tilt the field

7 against the reputable without having a sense

8 of whether Joe Six-pack is a predominant part

9 of the industry.

10 MR. EISNER: You're thinking about

11 imposing a burden on everybody. Well, you

12 don't have to level the playing field with

13 some of the things. 

14 An incentive to report violations. 

15 I'll throw in a wild one, all right? If you

16 said we will give an award, DOE will give an

17 award of $250 or $500 to any homeowner in the

18 South who has had a unit put in that is

19 illegal. And you give them the information in

20 the announcement of the award. 

21 So somebody comes to them and puts

22 in a system and they say oh, I've got a 13 on
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1 this unit, or I just checked it on the AHRI

2 website. It doesn't count. And I can get

3 $250 from Doug's personal account if I report

4 it to him. 

5 Outrageous, maybe? I don't know. 

6 But it doesn't hurt anybody. It doesn't take

7 any money out of anybody's pocket except DOE

8 and they might have to stick a condition in

9 there if we find out that it was illegal.

10 An incentive for somebody to

11 report it and say I didn't know they did that

12 to me and I get $250 off my unit now.

13 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I

14 actually thought where Karen was headed was a

15 really productive path in terms of as a

16 stakeholder potentially coming up with some

17 ideas in terms of what are things that could

18 be done within your scope of influence to be

19 able to bring to the table for people to

20 consider and chew on. 

21 And probably would be most helpful

22 if you were able to do that from your own
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1 perspective. So, she unfortunately put

2 herself in the position of putting that on a

3 contractor, but it would be helpful for

4 contractors and others to -- and I say that as

5 I don't have to, but Harvey has already given

6 me homework.

7 MR. EISNER: Think about some of

8 the ones that were put on the table this

9 afternoon that some people liked and some

10 people saw problems with. 

11 So, the second part of the

12 assignment is how do you address the problems

13 that some people had with the ideas that were

14 put on the table.

15 These notes -- when do you think

16 they'll have them out?

17 MS. LUDWIG: Tonight.

18 MR. EISNER: Tonight. So you can

19 work all weekend on this. All right? Everyone

20 have a nice weekend. See you next week.

21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

22 matter went off the record at 2:55 p.m.)
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A

$100 90:5

$250 278:17 279:3,12

$300 90:6

$500 278:17

a.m 1:12 4:2 25:10,11

106:20,21

abandon 34:20

ability 33:7 39:15 42:10

96:18 185:6 193:6

215:7 217:14 224:20

able 16:4 17:6 20:8

26:20 27:14 28:10,20

33:16 34:12 39:17,21

40:21 42:15 44:12

54:17 69:20 70:11

72:11 73:19,21 78:2,7

140:17,18,19 156:18

178:11 183:9,18

210:19 211:1,2

212:22 214:7 215:1

215:19 217:11,21

218:19 220:19 222:13

239:11 241:14 242:3

242:4 243:15 245:3

251:12 261:11 279:19

279:22

above-entitled 25:9

106:19 164:1 280:21

absent 190:4 215:7

absolutely 15:3 115:5

228:18

absorb 199:22

ACCA 45:17 49:2 87:18

89:17 95:18 108:2

127:13 138:21 145:5

164:10 172:21 180:6

204:21 230:4 242:11

accept 235:17

acceptable 30:22

203:17 209:9,12

access 19:16 40:18

149:21 272:12

accessed 166:1

accessible 87:1 149:20

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account 168:15 260:18

262:11,12 279:3

accountability 154:9

accountable 83:17

201:8

accounting 260:6

acknowledge 80:9

107:20

acknowledged 80:7

Acme 217:3

act 80:14 176:2 192:11

193:11 200:21 201:11

259:4

acting 191:15 267:9

action 52:15 191:19

223:20

active 168:3 183:17

actively 172:18

activities 171:6

actor 107:15,18 190:15

191:13 194:12

actors 112:3 145:1

acts 175:16 193:7,10

201:19

actual 19:5 24:8 26:15

45:4 127:11 161:9

162:15 167:8 248:11

add 11:17,19 22:8 52:1

79:19 155:3 157:8

179:5 242:21 250:4

added 193:10 207:21

addendum 74:16

adding 266:12

addition 82:17 232:1

246:19,20

additional 20:11 31:5,6

32:12 51:10 92:19

147:16 158:17 193:9

206:2 278:5

additionally 235:22

address 20:7 58:20

71:2,21 158:12 166:1

168:13 180:19 206:13

210:17 224:11 226:22

230:8 233:14 234:8

250:7 265:5 278:5

280:12

addressed 22:17 210:3

addressing 235:1

277:10

adds 177:4

adhesive 46:19 47:3

63:2

admitted 271:15

ads 86:2 88:1 98:16

advantage 26:10 85:14

149:9,10 171:2

advantages 163:9

advertise 62:11

advertising 53:17

advocacy 83:22

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advocates 160:19

affect 122:16 190:11,18

affiliates 272:8

affixes 50:21

afield 109:9

afraid 176:19

afternoon 280:9

agencies 85:15 173:14

agency 165:3

agenda 9:2,19

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aggressive 184:6

ago 50:5 52:16 58:9,10

89:12 134:11 153:20

agree 13:14 14:1 18:20

43:15 74:8 102:15

125:8 126:10 131:17

155:10 180:2 211:5

222:12 228:17 242:2

242:8 258:7

agreed 16:7 67:7

107:19

agreement 125:4

160:19 204:14

agrees 245:21

ahead 97:13 226:5

276:1

AHRI 3:6 15:1 22:21

23:12 28:13 32:17

40:13 58:17 80:21

119:1 125:22 148:13

149:1 150:10,19

151:9,20 152:9,19

153:1 154:17 155:3

156:19 157:7,14

159:7 163:2,3,13

193:14 232:12,22

241:7,8 279:1

AHRI's 240:21

aiding 38:18

air 1:3,19 2:6 19:12

36:17 53:20 63:10

66:8 70:9 77:5 146:15

177:15 239:1,3,8

240:4

Air-Conditioning 2:4,8

aired 266:9

akin 218:7

Akron 238:20

alerting 37:20

aligned 271:11

allegation 243:14

alleged 243:20

alleviate 74:2

allied 2:6 19:1 52:1

256:6

allow 35:12

allowed 240:11

allowing 48:1 198:1

already-in-place 235:2

alternatives 43:9

amazing 46:22

ambiguities 41:6

ambiguous 84:21

amenable 204:12

America 1:19

American 2:3,12

amiss 216:22

amount 70:5 138:12

167:17 198:4 218:13

237:1 271:5 277:20

amplify 43:2

AMRANE 2:8 14:22

22:20 58:16 150:18

155:2 157:16

Amy 2:4 68:15 125:21

193:13

analogue 249:3

analysis 39:4 42:7,19

57:10 140:16 241:3

250:8,22 251:8

and-such 99:2

anecdotal 40:12

Aniruddh 2:2 14:16

announcement 184:14

278:20

annual 218:4

annually 232:15 250:18

anomalies 226:11

238:10

anomaly 237:16

anonymous 166:18

168:12 177:1

answer 30:15 103:8

121:6 124:5 143:12

154:5 178:3 208:19

222:13

answered 245:18 270:2

answers 134:20 147:21

anybody 69:8 74:13

88:10 106:12,15

107:2,4 123:14

133:18 163:11 200:19

204:18 223:9,10

259:17 276:10,13

277:15 279:6

anybody's 170:19

279:7

anymore 133:14

anyone's 83:6

anyway 65:2 81:18

114:22 138:16 142:17

175:22 206:1 226:13

250:16 263:7 266:14

apart 20:7

aperture 56:19 73:7

109:19 254:4

apparently 5:5 44:15

apples 114:3

appliance 35:8 224:3

applicable 157:21

265:21

application 78:16 240:5
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applies 63:17 216:11

apply 146:6 255:9

applying 46:2

appreciate 37:6 40:6

54:20 56:17 70:8

73:15 103:19 105:18

132:15 180:10 278:3

appreciated 132:16

approach 7:9 11:12

103:1,3 231:3 241:22

245:10 249:14 250:8

approachable 162:11

approaches 5:8 43:3

241:18

appropriate 11:11

13:18 182:8 211:11

259:1

appropriately 185:2

187:17 259:10

approval 130:4

approximately 94:17

271:1

April 262:20

arbiters 186:13

arbitrary 123:9

area 11:20 60:3 86:20

180:18 214:9 231:13

areas 116:7 136:22

174:6 236:2

argument 75:12,17

107:5 123:15 163:12

arranged 6:16

arriving 177:22

articulate 140:20 246:4

246:6

articulated 192:4

aside 18:6 36:12 119:16

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asked 99:8 109:6

126:17 133:15 162:1

185:18 193:5 209:4

217:10,19 219:18

260:1 276:19

asking 4:13 60:13

121:5 123:5 150:13

158:20 208:11 251:22

258:21 263:2

aspect 119:22 188:14

ASRAC 2:10

assemblers 19:11,17

assess 187:20 215:19

assessing 214:20

assessment 252:16

258:8

assigned 18:7

assignment 43:17 46:1

56:13 280:12

assistance 106:2,7

associated 75:1 191:3

association 2:5 150:3

227:3

association's 134:15

associations 135:14

assume 163:13 214:6

215:12 233:12 256:5

258:14 271:1

assuming 159:1 211:5

assurance 60:15

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assurances 235:9

250:5

assure 70:11

assuredly 149:19

attempt 127:21 156:12

attempted 83:13

attention 29:16 95:14

attention-getting 95:12

attorney 202:22 236:4

attorneys 203:2,6,12

attract 178:16

audit 22:1 70:12 72:13

210:15 220:2 240:14

audited 220:8

auditor 23:14

August 1:8 97:14

authority 91:22 109:4

132:5 193:6 197:3

authorized 14:3

avail 181:7

availability 103:22

available 14:18 19:3

57:18 85:8 87:3

132:20 149:2 150:4

150:19 151:5,10

153:19 166:2 181:20

212:16 213:2 243:2

246:6 249:9

avenue 1:11 93:21

170:10 171:5

average 24:1 55:9 56:3

56:3,4 59:9 87:2

116:2

avoid 17:6 188:19

230:18 253:10

avoiding 35:1,1

award 277:19 278:16

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aware 83:14 115:17

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awareness 27:3 33:18

85:6,11 154:9

awful 41:5 268:14

awhile 14:19 75:7

B

back 5:21 11:6,11 13:10

18:2 25:13,18 27:5

30:11,13 35:19 37:8

38:9 39:6 40:5 42:6

42:20 44:9 46:1 47:11

48:2 50:4,8 51:15,21

54:7 55:7,17 56:9

58:17 66:22 67:17,21

68:5,10 74:21 77:15

81:21 85:21 86:10

89:20 90:13 106:17

118:9,9,10 121:17

122:3 124:22 125:20

126:13 129:5 130:21

139:18 142:16 153:14

155:11 162:7 163:18

163:21 165:3,9,10

166:5 171:12 172:17

175:18 193:17 195:16

197:13 200:5,6

201:14,16 202:22

204:3 205:21 209:16

227:1 231:13 234:16

236:15 239:10 246:3

246:5,8 250:10 254:2

256:13 263:10,12

264:5,7 265:18

276:16

background 137:4

238:20

backup 78:20

backward 197:3

backward-looking

196:20

backwards 201:9

backyard 24:16 27:12

36:16 51:2

bad 48:1,17,19 83:17

114:3 145:1 190:15

191:13,15 194:12

195:1 218:22 219:3

222:9 229:6 245:2,5,8

269:15 272:15

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balance 261:8

ball 115:12

BALLO 1:15 19:7 20:1

20:10 161:4 163:1

183:6 201:13 231:1

banditos 269:18 271:2

banner 98:16

Banners 95:10

bar 209:6

barriers 122:6

base 157:15 230:19

based 19:16 26:14

145:12 159:1,12

162:19 167:21 185:9

212:17 233:7 272:15

baseline 242:2 245:21

basic 89:2 109:15

216:10 242:14,15

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basis 23:16 86:16 95:4

109:21 133:12 168:5

168:20 184:3 218:11

battery 78:20,22

bear 4:14 57:2,6

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beat 49:7 66:3

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beginning 89:21

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behavior 197:10,18

belief 170:3 255:12

believe 14:18 41:1 58:5

67:4 70:15 169:19

179:6 186:12 224:8

261:2

believed 256:14

bells 153:1

below-14 57:2

benefit 40:9 42:5,14

170:16,20 171:3,21

benefits 48:9

best 42:5 73:17 100:12

100:13 128:22 180:14

182:2 224:17

bet 79:15

better 6:21 42:19 74:11

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165:15 166:14 246:4

246:5,7 264:6

beyond 103:6 111:19

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bid 270:12

big 13:5 30:7 76:19

104:3,19 139:17

172:7 230:10 271:7

271:14

bigger 26:11

billable 136:6

bills 117:8

bird-dog 55:4

bit 20:19 26:8 28:22

40:2,11 53:13 63:17

64:8,9 65:12 66:16,18

84:20 91:11 100:17

210:3 218:14 268:8

bits 76:19

black 258:6

blacked 258:2

blessed 140:9

blocks 35:13
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blotting 62:19

blow 50:13

blurb 96:11

boards 95:9

boil 40:8

bolts 137:7

book 219:5 276:2

border 56:1 96:3 139:1

142:14 210:8 233:16

239:16 254:19,21,22

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boss 177:10

bought 36:6 89:12

221:12 261:8

bounce 43:19

bowl 172:3

box 15:3 28:2 34:22

56:5 65:1 166:7 271:7

271:14

boxes 13:5,11,15 16:13

233:19 276:21

brainwashed 268:11

brand 104:13 272:5

brass 245:1

breach 72:2

break 43:22 99:10

106:17 163:18 203:15

273:4

breakouts 272:16

Brenda 274:17

briefing 40:14

bring 5:12 8:17 37:16

65:17 67:20 68:10,13

81:21 85:21 86:11

125:19 131:4 153:14

162:6 202:21 279:19

bringing 58:1

brings 5:21 74:21 124:2

broad 208:15,19

broadly 175:1

broke 50:6

broken 6:3 71:2,10,19

272:19

brought 184:7 193:4

204:5

browser 32:21

Bryan 2:2 14:10 80:11

94:19 153:16 154:12

buckets 6:16

buddy 131:12

budgetary 8:1

build 193:22

building 12:9 14:7 21:6

21:11,15 23:8,10 29:9

29:10 32:16 33:9 56:3

106:2 175:5 178:21

216:18

buildings 260:21

built 100:19,20 153:9

built-in 34:9

bulb 85:22 105:21

bulletin 95:9

bunch 140:3 152:2

189:3 248:21

burden 7:15 70:8 71:6

83:8 119:8 132:1

140:22 147:13 219:8

255:4 278:11

burdened 29:12 144:16

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266:2,5 267:13

burdensome 156:1

160:12 170:20 208:21

222:13 245:11 270:19

271:17

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bus 131:13 222:18

business 50:6 62:7

81:18 98:15 107:16

110:10 112:11,16

113:2 117:7,21

120:20 124:15 128:21

129:12 150:11,15

179:16,20 213:12

216:3 228:8 255:16

256:3,7,21 257:15,22

258:21 259:3,8,17,18

260:3,8 261:2,5,13

262:10 263:5 264:14

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261:20 268:16

busy 29:11

button 155:20

buttons 119:14

buy 54:3 83:4 92:19

97:8 98:19 99:22

100:19,20 140:4

167:7 210:8 259:18

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11:22 22:22 36:4 85:5

85:8,9 159:16,19

178:1 210:7,20,21

211:7,9 212:3 214:15

220:11,18 235:21

236:4,7,18 240:4

253:16,19 270:3,18

270:22 271:6,16

273:12,16

California's 270:9

274:3

call 21:8 36:21 45:11

46:6,12 47:19 48:15

49:5 61:3 63:12 64:3

79:10 85:1 89:22

112:3,17 157:15

165:16 166:13 172:14

173:2 177:14 178:9

180:7,18 181:12

211:15 238:21,22

271:9 272:12

called 23:10 27:13

94:14 172:17 261:6

calling 62:18 144:16

181:19

calls 46:9 147:10 177:1

179:19

camera-ready 91:2

cameras 229:2

campaign 27:4 33:17

53:19 82:5 83:21 85:6

86:1 104:20 105:22

115:15 180:21

campaigns 33:19 84:22

86:9 131:1

candid 5:19

capability 109:4

capable 109:7

capacity 21:22 22:5

145:13

capital 272:20

caption 22:10

card 50:7 71:3 228:8

234:20

care 60:9 61:2 109:20

258:22

career 121:14

careful 48:11 60:12

187:14 227:12 266:16

carefully 29:14

Carrier 1:17 54:6 61:6

99:3,16 125:8 233:18

carrot 107:7

carry 133:13 139:7

carton 12:5,13,16,19

19:6 28:12

carton's 62:1

case 22:6 34:2 37:17

55:5 62:2 69:8 70:18

72:12 107:3 129:19

140:2 170:14,22

180:1 193:22 202:7

210:15 230:22 247:18

249:18

cases 30:18 170:15

234:13 244:6

cash 182:18 269:10

catch 229:6,16

categories 6:4,6 145:17

categorize 273:1

caucus 24:22 25:3,14

26:10,11 49:16 129:6

caught 170:4 194:13,16

219:4 229:9 243:4

cause 71:4 72:1 237:16

248:5 273:14,15

causing 101:5

caution 104:8,17

cautious 266:11

caveat 187:17

CCMS 88:12 151:20

152:11,12 153:19

161:11 163:14

centered 190:9

central 1:3 19:12

146:15 212:15 213:5

cents 78:19,21,21

101:9,9 166:10

certain 13:21 42:11

127:17 144:19 169:13

174:6 200:14 207:2

230:14 254:8

certainly 20:22 25:4

77:14 86:20 94:8

102:16 118:22 124:6

125:5 135:18 136:18

145:2 155:4,7 169:3

178:10 189:6 197:21

203:1 209:18 216:1

249:13

certainty 72:11

certificate 149:1 151:9

153:21 158:21

certificates 3:6 148:13

certification 119:1

127:15 247:4

certified 113:10

certify 216:9

cetera 71:9 107:2

CFR 20:1 257:19

chain 3:3 15:20 20:12

50:10 70:22 71:10,19

79:5,14 80:6,16 220:4

223:11 231:15 242:6

267:11

challenge 43:12 55:1

112:1 128:5 197:22

249:10 256:20

challenging 261:10

chance 170:18

change 14:12 17:14

43:4 53:7 67:8 136:20

138:1,22 155:8
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156:16

change-out 86:1

change-outs 89:9

changed 139:12 160:5

179:2 214:2

changes 17:16 58:8

97:3 137:9,18 145:17

changing 58:14 88:8

133:13 136:13

channel 71:12,13

channels 128:7,22

129:3

chapters 146:20

characterization 38:10

charge 68:3 217:14

charges 192:12

CHARLES 1:19 2:5

Charlie 44:14 45:15,17

49:2 62:15 75:18

87:18 90:16 91:11

92:16 95:19 97:21

107:12 108:1 122:4

127:12 136:1 138:20

140:11 145:5 164:9

169:7 170:6 172:3,3,4

172:20 180:6 204:20

230:3 242:10 263:8

265:1 268:11,20

Charlie's 112:16,17

134:16 264:11 268:9

chart 139:10

charts 11:4

cheap 233:20

cheapest 239:3

cheat 63:15 170:5

227:19 228:4 229:8

cheater 228:6

cheaters 228:4 229:16

cheating 169:22 228:20

229:3,21

check 23:16 25:19 27:9

36:1 37:4 111:1

162:14 166:9 168:4

182:11 203:19 220:2

checked 279:1

checking 262:11,12

checks 38:2

chew 279:20

Chicago 237:9

children 116:8 117:1

chin 39:13

chip 3:3 75:9 77:1

chips 75:11

choice 85:10

choose 13:7 72:12 91:5

112:7 191:11

chose 47:10

chosen 112:11

Chuck 15:14 53:13 59:4

62:4 95:1,7 99:20

100:2 101:7 110:19

113:21 116:5 122:4

134:9 136:1,10 138:2

141:8 144:8 145:9

155:14 156:2 157:5

170:6,8 173:4 195:7

211:12 212:8 213:3

215:22 244:17,20

245:6 251:2 259:15

263:14,22 264:10,22

Chuck's 49:21 115:4

138:21 157:4 158:12

chunk 51:18 261:21

circle 7:6 38:9

circulate 68:14

circumstances 201:19

202:14

citation 19:22

City 220:7

claim 176:2

claims 227:8

clarification 15:15

211:13 213:4 246:13

253:9

clarifying 30:14

clarity 19:1,20 39:2

52:1 147:14 190:4

Clark 205:16 235:8

clean 257:6

clear 20:10 41:16 196:1

196:12 208:14 213:11

clearly 60:16 161:7

255:3

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click 98:17 155:20

177:17

clog 249:8

close 92:5 167:2 183:2

194:14 195:5 210:7

220:22

closed 183:17 184:12

184:13 185:13

clump 273:2

co-logoing 91:14

coalesce 43:13

code 49:13,14 112:5

144:20 157:9,20

158:8

codes 76:18 106:3

codified 257:19

coding 41:4,7

coexist 153:3

collaborate 135:14

collaboration 84:22

collection 3:7 22:9

163:19 164:5

color 65:21

color-coded 6:18

comb 237:4 245:7

combination 159:8

162:16 249:17

combing 226:10 229:15

come 18:2 30:13 42:6

63:22 74:4 75:8 84:5

98:19 100:2,21

103:16 106:17 117:16

118:9,10 122:2

142:16 143:8 163:18

163:21 171:17 187:2

195:16,20 200:5

201:3 205:21 212:2,6

213:7,15 223:22

246:8 251:12 258:8

261:1,22 262:5 264:7

comes 26:17 36:15

45:8 46:10 79:4 89:16

90:7 99:19 200:19

231:9 256:13 274:17

277:19 278:21

comfort 89:22

comfortable 74:3 75:6

coming 61:21 75:10

97:13 154:3 161:21

199:14 254:2 277:12

279:16

comment 15:4 50:19

65:15 66:18 72:7

120:7 153:18,20

210:4 253:22

comments 8:8 9:11

10:16 32:19 40:5 62:6

90:13 116:19 123:14

147:6 183:5 185:14

commerce 114:11

commercial 109:13

commercials 87:12

Commission 2:10 13:4

22:22 33:3 36:4 85:9

commitment 56:9

64:18 84:21

committed 30:10 38:7

112:4 130:10

committee 63:19

committing 115:7

common 91:7 93:2,15

95:1 102:11

commonly 94:10

communicate 81:1,7

98:11 183:19

communicated 97:10

communication 3:3

79:4,13,14,16 107:1

142:10

companies 139:7 143:1

company 1:20 2:2

30:19 44:6,12 49:22

62:11 97:19 111:12

118:9 121:10 131:13

167:11,14 196:6

203:16 229:14 255:19

company's 31:2 186:8

company-owned

128:13

compare 237:12

comparison 32:7

compel 45:21

competitive 199:8

competitor 46:11

competitors 184:5,7

230:19

complaint 166:9,17,19

167:16 171:11 174:14

complaints 166:5 168:5

complete 185:4 220:5

220:22 223:17 244:4

248:3

completely 111:6

completeness 244:10

complex 41:13

compliance 3:5 12:17

22:1,6,11 23:4,4

28:16,17 29:18 38:19

39:15,16,21 47:15

48:8 49:6 69:21 70:12

70:16 72:3,12 123:12

141:7 148:21 156:9

162:14,18 179:11

214:20 215:19 216:10

222:15 223:9,10

273:18 274:7

compliant 21:4 28:9

36:6 39:20 47:17 48:7

55:19 58:4 113:11

117:4 154:20 206:19

210:9 214:9,13 220:9

221:6 232:4 240:10

273:20

complicated 147:4

199:10,13

complicating 136:17

complication 137:20

complied 234:9 249:11

comply 50:10 217:15

217:16

component 145:12

156:17 157:11

computer 32:17 54:18

conceivable 170:18

concept 23:21 78:10

107:22 151:18

concern 29:20 35:5

37:22 56:19 69:11
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193:15 194:3 197:15

199:5 201:5 221:16

278:6

concerned 15:10 33:7

41:8 49:20

concerning 248:4

concerns 26:15 74:19

74:20 179:17 180:4

234:1

conclude 15:7

concrete 264:21

condensing 12:21 24:8

24:17 26:16,18 27:6

27:13 43:7 45:1 51:18

156:16 157:10,18

158:1,3,6 270:5

condition 279:8

conditioner 1:3 36:18

177:16 239:1,3,8

conditioners 19:12

70:9 77:6 146:16

240:5

conditioning 1:19

53:21 63:10 66:8

conduct 112:5 117:8

confidence 212:22

222:14

confidential 171:6

175:12,15 176:8,10

213:6 223:3 255:16

256:21 257:15,17,21

258:7,9,13,16,21

259:3,8

confidentiality 166:22

171:15 172:6 173:5

175:22 179:18

confirm 244:22

confirmed 276:16

conflict 191:22

confuse 145:15

confused 33:10 147:20

confusing 146:16

confusion 102:17

consensus 38:17 242:6

consequence 192:6

252:7

consequences 119:5

144:1 191:2,9,20,20

219:20 227:13 252:4

252:19

consider 27:9 56:2

61:17 63:20 113:19

121:8 122:21 140:15

279:20

consideration 52:10

73:13 267:20

considered 66:9,11

240:3 257:17

considering 85:14

218:3

consistent 31:12,18

148:2 209:13 235:22

conspicuous 28:18

33:22

consternation 101:6

constitutes 190:5,5

construction 50:13,16

consult 203:12

Consulting 2:9

consumer 33:12,15

34:12 36:10 41:17

50:3,15 55:9 56:3

63:7 79:6,20 83:13

88:10 90:21 100:18

104:6,16 109:13

110:10 111:3,19

149:4 153:22 154:19

155:5,16 157:3

226:22 227:22 266:14

consumer's 90:10

consumers 40:21 42:15

43:10 92:4 104:21

111:9 133:12 161:14

161:16 162:12

consuming 32:10

cont'd 2:1

contact 166:18 177:6

contacted 174:9

contains 24:13

CONTENTS 3:1

context 22:13 85:5

102:19 162:10

continue 4:18,19 103:3

120:13 179:19,21

continuing 173:10

258:20

contract 248:1

contracting 97:19

268:13

contractor 12:4 15:21

46:9 47:17 49:10,21

50:16,17 63:1,5,8

71:14 78:7 89:1,17

90:18 91:3 93:1,21

96:1,4 97:4 99:19

107:13 108:13,19

114:18 116:3 117:22

122:19 134:2 135:16

152:5 154:8 157:2

164:15 169:21 170:3

172:1 175:3 178:22

192:15,21 200:18

201:5 210:7 212:19

220:6,20,21 221:20

226:14,21 227:1

231:9,17 232:6

233:13 234:7,14

240:7,15 245:15

247:22 248:4 249:4

249:16 250:11,14

251:5,9,11,13,16

258:16 262:6 263:4

266:1,3,17 267:6

272:7 280:3

contractor's 118:4

155:17 172:12 225:3

233:14 248:6

contractors 1:19 2:5

3:4,4 45:21 46:5

62:13 69:7 79:22

80:16 83:2,3,14 87:4

89:9 93:2,16 94:11,22

99:9 101:15 107:2

108:9 109:17 117:4

123:11 124:3,8

130:13,15 131:19

132:4,7 134:8,11

136:5 139:4 141:3,6

142:11 143:5,11

144:13 156:4 160:11

160:13 164:11 170:19

173:12 174:4 175:6

180:6 181:14 182:1

210:5 219:2 226:9

227:2 228:12 230:6

230:10,10 231:13,22

242:9 254:13 263:20

265:4 269:4,7 271:1

280:4

control 8:1 116:1

Controls 2:2 14:11

57:15 153:17

conversation 28:1

164:8 165:6 168:17

168:20 169:4 172:10

conversations 5:19

131:2

conveying 69:3

cool 84:20

cooperate 213:9

Cooperative 1:16

cooperatives 92:2,3

coordinate 80:20

156:13

copies 257:22

copy 6:1 35:10 93:8

96:8

corner 91:2

corollary 241:1

corp 260:13,13,14,14

corporate 202:22

262:21

corporation 1:17 260:4

corps 260:4

correct 35:7 61:7 84:17

115:5 124:19 159:11

159:14 162:17 178:18

183:21 211:11 216:19

221:3 228:5

correctly 219:17 224:6

correlate 244:15

cost 29:21 30:6 31:8

38:14 40:10 41:22

43:11 48:8 57:6,10

72:22 78:22 136:6

138:16,18 142:17

191:16 205:7 261:6

261:12 277:13

cost-benefit 39:4

cost-effective 47:14

78:9

costly 34:21 270:20

273:16,21

costs 35:2 109:2 136:4

266:13

Council 1:21 2:3,12

Counsel 1:22

count 213:1 279:2

counter 93:4,6,18 94:3

95:5,11 98:20 99:14

117:15 133:16 269:11

272:13,16

counterpart 268:10

counterparts 56:10

country 53:20 54:14

58:6 273:13

couple 17:19 118:3

173:16 216:13 235:6

274:11

course 21:1 70:4

113:12 128:21 138:8

138:9,9,10 151:3

166:21 199:19 215:4

215:17 244:2 252:8

258:4

COURT 123:3

cousin 89:12

cover 97:18 175:17

covered 19:12 35:7

CR 75:22 76:6

crack 101:10

cracked 101:9

Craig 2:11 253:6 254:1

crapshoot 260:11

crazy 90:4

create 63:9 126:21

218:21 265:11

created 114:8 170:11

265:10

creating 127:9 205:2

219:8
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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Crescent 220:7

criteria 198:14

critical 74:19 90:15

cross-check 23:12

curious 87:9 116:4,21

current 24:7 31:4 111:7

119:3 244:5

currently 17:9 24:6

161:5,11 165:22

221:4

curriculum 127:14

custodian 259:7

customer 54:6 83:6

117:16 136:6 143:15

143:16 144:2 213:13

230:19

customers 80:2 98:2,4

98:14,18,19 229:17

235:10 273:7

cut 116:10 117:2

cutaway 8:18

cutoff 144:15

D

D.C 1:12

dad's 55:2

data 3:8 48:13 51:2,11

51:12 52:6 54:18

70:14,19 72:21 103:1

118:14 153:18 164:6

167:8,9,13 180:11

214:21 217:4,6 223:7

225:16,17 226:10

228:10,14 232:11

233:1,2,8 235:10

236:12 237:1,2,12,14

238:3,3,11 248:17,17

256:22 267:14

data-mining 237:14

database 3:4,6 23:13

28:14 29:4 32:18

34:16 40:13 107:2,4

108:4,22 109:3,13

110:1 111:7,8,15

112:2 118:7,22

148:13,18 149:19,22

150:19 151:12,20,21

152:13,18 153:5,6,9

154:17,18 155:3,4,9

155:19 156:19 157:14

158:2 159:7 161:14

161:17,20 162:11

176:10,20 178:16

212:15 213:5 240:22

241:1 245:4 253:12

databases 229:16

266:12

date 102:5 103:7

144:20 146:7,7 207:2

207:6,11 242:16

275:17

dates 276:5

Dave 13:5 18:22 51:22

David 2:6,10 33:2 270:1

day 7:8 19:21 126:14

152:1 157:17

days 5:6

deaf 88:5

deal 76:22 110:10,13,16

110:18 111:12 143:15

143:18 166:7 172:16

173:7 177:18 178:2

229:20 235:3 267:8

dealer 13:19 56:4

122:19 152:5 183:3

256:4 272:2,7,18

dealers 127:22 230:17

271:9,10,11,20,22

273:2,3

dealing 111:2 115:11

115:13 117:9 184:21

190:14 191:12 192:17

192:21 196:7,15

197:7 251:8

December 100:19

144:17 207:8

decide 16:6 42:11

144:1 155:11 192:16

195:9 206:18 276:11

decided 126:14 198:9

198:16

deciding 110:9

decision 42:21 88:3

123:10 127:1 162:8

190:3 195:9,11 275:3

decisions 113:2 190:7

deck 146:20

declaration 127:6

decline 274:7

deduction 261:2

deemed 191:14 201:18

deep 137:7,8 157:13

179:10

Defense 1:20

definitely 48:6 155:10

156:3 248:13

definition 195:18

201:15

Degitz 2:9 44:1

degree 29:18 39:2

delay 9:10,11,22 10:16

delineate 255:15

delivered 207:21

delivering 87:10

delivery 12:4 16:2

delta 142:17

demarcation 137:1

demonstrate 261:15

Department 1:1,22 2:9

23:15 37:21 42:15

67:13 70:4,8 81:14,19

82:4,8 85:22 86:4,15

94:1,2 112:22 119:14

119:15 122:1 129:19

153:4 166:4 174:2

175:14 182:19 183:10

183:13 185:11 208:1

209:10 214:22 215:16

218:15 238:17 241:20

256:13 257:16 258:1

258:12 260:20

Department's 37:15

48:18 91:12 122:1

129:10,17 247:8

departments 128:16,17

departure 137:11

depend 252:18

depending 141:19,21

167:3

depends 28:22

depleted 102:11

depletion 102:22

described 26:14 219:13

263:14

deserve 4:17

design 31:11 181:3

designed 190:19

designing 67:18

desire 44:3,19 170:4

176:18 179:11 229:13

229:15

detail 8:6 95:11 125:9

125:10,19

details 33:19 46:17

85:21 145:9 168:22

detect 78:7

detection 26:15

determination 39:16

113:1 196:12,13

determine 12:10,17

14:8 15:12 20:9 22:6

23:3,16 28:16 30:20

39:15,21 72:11

112:21 196:6 206:16

207:1 222:15

determined 28:17

125:16

determining 22:11

deterrent 69:16

develop 25:21 35:22

132:3

developed 95:20

development 34:16

devil's 233:19

devoted 86:5

dialogue 174:22

difference 207:10

248:16 263:13

differences 137:10

152:16

different 5:14 7:2 24:19

28:4 31:14 41:7 46:9

57:8 69:22 93:13

94:17 98:21 117:15

119:6 128:6,7 130:3

144:4 152:2 153:19

158:10 163:9 194:10

196:5 198:14 214:1

216:7 221:14,15

223:11 231:3 232:17

235:15,18 237:17,21

241:18 243:9 246:14

263:16 265:20 266:16

274:14

differently 20:19

difficult 7:13 40:2 55:18

56:1 57:7 64:12

100:18 104:21 105:2

128:14 133:18 150:8

188:1 200:13 222:5

264:1

dig 248:5

digging 252:14

digits 33:20

dime 49:9

dimed 195:5

dimension 212:10

direct 26:2 274:17

directed 152:6

directing 161:18,19

direction 4:9 42:11

224:12

directionally 274:2

directly 142:21

directory 30:20 119:1

152:9 153:2

dirty 197:17

disagree 276:13

disagreeing 72:14

242:12

disappear 37:3

disclose 259:6

disclosure 259:3

disconnect 233:7

discouragement

108:18

discourse 37:12

discover 243:22

discovery 184:18

discuss 6:8 7:5,11 25:6

148:10 191:19 274:1

discussed 15:15 32:7
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64:15 77:16 167:5

discussing 9:4 193:2

205:12

discussion 8:21 9:3,9

9:12,17 10:4 11:5

18:3 25:17 26:9 27:11

76:6 80:13 123:7

144:10 165:20 198:19

204:2 248:22

discussions 9:21 64:11

154:6 248:18

disincentive 182:2

189:12 190:16 191:5

192:8,20 193:12

199:6

disinformation 99:6

dismiss 37:13

dismissing 73:18

disparage 65:20

dispense 72:8

dispersion 175:5

display 96:18

disregulate 239:12

disrespect 203:5

distance 142:16

distinct 57:3

distinction 111:22

distribution 13:15

78:14 80:16 96:17

124:8 128:11,12,13

131:14 132:18 238:4

240:8 255:21 256:1,4

distributor 13:19 71:8,9

71:13 83:9 96:20

100:22 110:14,17

118:1 124:2 198:18

200:14 207:17 215:3

221:21 231:14 232:6

249:16 256:6

distributors 3:4 19:10

19:16 69:7 79:17,22

83:5 89:2 94:11 95:9

98:3 110:9 112:14

117:1 122:10,20

123:12,21 130:14,16

131:17 132:4,11

134:3 141:6 143:5

212:18 220:21 242:9

269:12

distributorship 93:3,5

diverging 9:5

docks 178:1

document 91:15 97:22

153:22 154:10 157:7

240:16 265:16

documented 249:5

documents 184:19

DOE 3:4 5:17 7:22,22

17:7 22:9,22 25:21

26:5 28:10 53:18 66:7

77:6,17 79:5,21 82:11

82:12,12,22 83:19

84:10 85:7 88:15,18

88:20 89:7,16 90:22

96:19 97:22 98:5

100:15 106:1 107:1,4

130:5,6,8,18 131:3

132:21 135:19 138:17

140:10 150:20 152:17

154:18 157:16 160:9

161:17 165:10 167:12

180:21 185:17 193:18

193:21 194:5 195:9

195:20 197:6,8 198:9

203:19 232:14 250:2

268:1 277:8,18

278:16 279:7

DOE's 268:3

DOE-created 90:18

doing 6:18 8:2 14:20

17:17 32:2 38:8 50:2

50:11 64:17 68:1 86:6

105:10,11 109:7

112:10 124:12 142:22

144:3 147:10 179:7

193:1 194:16,17,19

203:6 218:12 219:11

229:19 237:13 251:16

254:21 255:13 259:12

268:21

dollars 166:10 260:19

doodling 154:10

door 171:17 201:1,2

Doria 1:15 20:15 38:6

102:14 111:20 126:9

179:4,4 186:6,6 190:1

197:20 246:11 270:16

double 277:20

double-check 244:13

Doug 1:22 5:16 6:14 9:1

16:22 18:10 23:18

24:20 26:3,8 36:8

42:2 48:3 56:17 58:17

67:11 69:9 73:2 74:1

74:8 76:5 77:13 81:9

84:12 85:20 91:11,19

92:21 96:15 97:20

100:10 105:3,20

109:2,5 112:9 113:6

115:4 116:20 118:7

118:19 120:12 124:10

129:4 131:6 135:22

138:2 143:9 148:14

151:6 153:18 154:13

158:11,19 165:18

169:9 172:8 177:20

180:9 182:14,20

183:7 185:21 187:10

189:11 190:8 191:7

192:5,9 197:10 199:9

200:11 202:16 203:13

205:4,13 209:21

214:5 215:10,21

241:17 243:7 246:22

251:20 254:2 257:1

267:18 274:21 276:15

Doug's 214:6 249:8

250:7 279:3

downside 172:1

downsides 115:22

149:3

downstream 138:6

202:9 257:12

dozen 101:10

draft 147:15 158:13

draw 32:7

drawers 261:18

dries 227:5

drill 243:16

drive 142:15 153:4

drive-by 249:20

driven 13:3

driving 77:17

drop 49:9

drumbeat 238:9

ducts 270:9,11 273:17

due 75:21

dumb 120:8

dumps 161:11

durability 47:3

E

earlier 172:2 222:18

247:3 259:22

earning 8:3

ears 88:5

Earthjustice 1:15 19:8

201:14 231:2

ease 6:10 22:10 39:22

easier 15:19 28:15

29:15 32:4 74:11

75:22 112:18 145:11

155:5,20 254:10

easiest 84:18

easily 22:1,6 28:17

40:21 109:16 217:11

237:10

easy 10:12 29:6 32:1

49:9 54:8 56:11 65:4

65:6,12,19 66:13

120:19 148:1,6

151:17,18,19 171:5

276:17

echo 134:10

Economy 2:3,13

edition 96:13

educate 104:21

educating 142:12

education 33:17,18

79:7 104:8,20 119:21

educational 53:19

115:15

EER 34:2 74:18 159:18

254:8

effect 17:3,4 34:5 35:8

237:13 273:15

effective 4:10,12 26:6

43:14 52:17 60:5

61:13 65:7,13 67:18

78:13 85:18 87:14

96:20 99:12 105:8,16

108:18 146:7 169:11

169:13 175:21 181:5

181:11 215:10 247:12

effectively 8:5 21:13

101:4 114:6,8 130:6

198:2 242:3 246:1

effectiveness 6:9 191:1

effects 140:15

efficacy 44:20

efficiency 24:1,2 29:5

29:14 30:21 78:1

85:11 86:15 92:11

158:4 179:12

Efficient 2:13

effort 70:12 83:14

127:21 265:13

efforts 129:10,17

eggs 101:9

egregious 116:14

Eisner 1:12,14 4:3 6:19

8:13 10:7,10,13,18

11:2,10 15:4 22:8,18

25:1,4,7,12 29:19

32:19 33:5 45:6 49:11

49:18 52:12 56:12

65:15 66:20 69:5

70:13 71:5 72:4,14

74:13 75:9,16 76:13

79:3 80:8 82:9 85:13

98:12 103:12 106:12

106:22 116:19 120:18

122:22 123:5 125:12

129:18 147:6 148:8

149:15 155:1 163:11

163:21 164:4 183:5

185:14 186:3 189:22

194:5 202:15 204:16

225:15 226:6 233:11

233:22 238:12 253:6

274:8,19 276:10,18

278:10 280:7,18
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either 12:18 27:2 31:21

34:3 50:18 93:22

113:8 154:16 163:9

165:1 167:7 212:20

216:3 222:10 226:17

232:11

elaborate 22:21 95:2

elderly 54:14

Electric 1:16

electrical 24:11

electronic 19:15 29:4

32:3

electronically 32:17

elegant 267:3

element 33:14

elements 51:1 126:18

242:14

eligibility 12:10 23:5

eligible 58:22

eliminate 34:15 74:1

Elizabeth 1:20 27:22

43:19 56:22 105:21

119:19 130:12 161:2

181:2 190:22 195:8

214:16 217:15 224:18

236:16 238:12 240:20

279:13

ELLIS 1:16 53:14 57:11

91:19

else's 176:12

elude 48:1

email 166:1,3,4,7,8,12

168:13,16 169:10

180:18 181:4 184:9

274:14

emails 168:11,11

177:21 187:2

embark 167:4

emphasizing 202:12

empiricism 40:12

employees 117:10

139:16,21 268:17

employer's 268:22

269:1

encompass 196:20

encompassed 43:3

encompasses 60:2

encourage 144:3 145:1

197:9,18 219:2

encouraging 69:21

endeavor 43:16

ended 132:1 207:20

ends 129:19 178:15

energy 1:1,22 2:9,10,12

19:3,11 22:22 23:15

24:19 33:3 35:10 36:4

36:11 47:9 52:2 81:14

84:2 85:9,11 86:15

88:6,8,9 92:11,19

94:1,2 157:3 158:18

158:22 159:2,14,17

160:19 161:5 162:19

174:2 179:12 180:17

182:19 200:1 214:22

215:16 238:17

Energy-Efficient 2:3

enforce 69:20 129:10

242:3 246:2

enforced 267:1

enforcement 1:3 4:11

4:13 5:15 25:22 26:5

37:16 45:19,20 52:15

52:17 69:13 86:16

126:15,21 127:10

129:17 148:21 153:21

164:12 170:9 173:2

187:11 236:13 244:6

257:20 265:3 267:19

269:17

enforcing 187:12,13

engage 9:20 27:4 122:2

engaged 172:19

engagement 173:10

engaging 172:13

engineer 55:3

engineering 33:19

enormous 53:19 92:2

ensure 111:13 115:16

254:18

ensures 35:6

entails 125:10

Enterprises 2:6

entirely 110:2 255:6

entitled 266:6

entity 23:3 85:10

environmental 83:22

envision 26:13 82:4

90:17 111:5 194:10

194:22 195:13

envisioned 36:10

envisioning 87:14

154:14

EPA 85:16 173:1

EPA's 180:7

equipment 13:12 15:11

15:18 23:7 28:3 29:21

91:8 93:16 97:5

104:12 109:14 132:11

137:8 154:2 164:17

200:15 210:9 223:5

223:20 225:20,21

226:3 236:7 241:4

242:18,22 273:20,22

274:6

equivalent 151:9

Eric 2:12 175:17

Eric's 40:14

escape 218:22 243:5

especially 83:15 119:20

184:5 196:21 205:15

209:13 258:15

essential 39:20

essentially 88:5 89:7

107:14 112:2,15

139:21 198:2

establish 250:19

established 195:19

257:9

estate 30:4 32:13 51:15

55:18

estimate 270:3

et 71:9 107:2

evaluator 12:9

event 215:15

everybody 5:5 8:22

11:12,18 16:18 18:19

32:21 53:20 63:11

66:1 112:6 116:12

117:7 122:22 123:6

134:1,4 135:4,7 196:1

236:18 245:21 272:4

278:11

everybody's 54:12

62:11 76:16 134:5

everyone's 18:2 67:19

200:1

Everything's 220:12

evidence 186:9

evolved 249:1

exact 175:18

exactly 94:12,20 102:22

126:5 127:5 136:12

140:12 159:11 193:7

236:3,4

example 7:2 13:4 57:14

112:9 130:2 249:19

253:17 270:22

examples 99:11 126:3

excellent 212:9

exceptional 202:7

exclusive 113:8 153:7

Excuse 76:11

execute 155:22

executed 83:22 254:17

exercises 41:11

existing 231:21

exists 24:8 114:18

149:11 150:3 160:5

223:7 267:14

expand 141:20 150:16

193:7

expect 101:20,21

102:10 274:6

expectation 64:5 102:4

expects 82:12

expensive 32:10,11

87:7 89:14 91:9

270:13 274:2,6

experience 89:8 104:15

273:13 274:4

experiences 41:10

explain 10:11 71:5 89:6

97:3,7 99:10 100:12

100:18 103:9,18,21

105:1 133:11 143:18

146:22 166:21

explained 90:3 160:4

163:8

explaining 10:19 98:5

explains 90:8

explanation 147:9

explicit 207:14 208:9

explore 82:15 120:13

121:19 124:19

exploring 236:11

249:14

exposed 50:22 167:1

266:2

exposure 268:10

express 65:20

extensive 148:15

extent 4:22 125:9

232:12 268:10 269:2

extra 30:6 38:1 219:9

265:8 275:22

extrapolate 251:18

extremely 133:5 186:9

187:17 200:13 270:18

270:19

eyes 43:6 164:20

178:20

F

face 219:19 272:3

Facebook 81:5

faceplate 164:19

facilitator 1:12,14 75:19

facilities 25:19

facility 78:14

facing 190:14

fact 10:7 37:6 79:15

92:18 101:11 116:18

133:21 148:3 169:19

185:9 186:13 196:9

197:4 215:8 224:5

230:20 233:6 236:6

258:19

factor 261:1,8

factory 214:14

factual 65:18

fail 59:22 118:15,17

272:22
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failed 71:3,22

failing 219:20

failsafe 151:21

failure 188:8 217:14,16

fair 65:3 101:1 150:9

167:17

fairly 33:10 52:4 55:3

147:18 233:20

fairness 265:22

fall 64:15 88:5 113:13

173:18 262:22

familiar 84:13 103:2

families 76:14

far 37:20 54:19 57:9

81:14 105:19 109:8

115:21 119:11 122:11

124:22 127:16 138:6

140:8 152:9 184:2

219:15 253:15 255:2

257:14

fascinated 46:17,18

fascinating 133:5

fashion 195:15 201:11

259:1

favor 107:4 222:18

236:11

favorite 117:17

fear 269:3

feasibility 79:2

feasible 30:12 47:14

77:2 232:19

features 272:9

federal 13:3 20:22 34:7

80:4

fee 153:7

feedback 33:9

feeds 81:5 124:3

feel 41:18 74:3 109:9

131:1 180:1 202:21

203:2 204:22 208:6

252:13 257:3

feelings 163:6

feels 130:9 149:13

248:12

feet 78:17,18 277:1

FERNSTROM 1:16

11:21 13:22 15:6

18:10 20:2 21:21

22:14 23:2 28:6 29:7

32:6 39:8,12 61:18

70:7,21 71:11 72:6

74:7 85:4 159:15,22

209:21 212:8 214:4

219:22 222:11 223:12

224:16 226:12,16

234:15 236:14 240:2

242:20 250:6 267:17

269:22 273:11

ferret 222:6

field 23:7 158:7 187:3

211:3 222:15 250:17

278:6,12

fields 169:13

figure 47:3 105:15

108:16 115:1,6

133:21 138:4,15

176:9 222:7 241:20

243:17,18 245:8

figuring 243:12

file 226:21 260:12,13

261:18 265:4

filed 176:1 230:6,16

233:13

files 226:13 260:14

filing 226:9 263:15

fill 141:11 174:6 182:9

216:12 249:4

filtration 240:10

final 82:10 127:11

finance 109:6

financial 275:9

find 28:14 29:5,10

32:13 45:9 52:18 54:7

54:8 58:1 70:19 71:9

74:10 82:2 93:1

108:11,12 114:19,20

115:1 119:13,20

120:14 155:5 158:2

174:13 178:21 181:9

183:12 187:7 212:22

222:7,12 237:15

239:2 240:15 243:19

244:6 249:13 264:18

279:9

finding 58:8 183:3

196:18 197:6 234:19

findings 185:3

finds 197:8

fine 10:6,17 156:15

220:13 223:21 232:14

252:8

finish 4:22

firms 66:8

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141:3 147:16 151:21

153:13 156:8 157:9

171:10 177:2 180:14

181:22 197:15 211:19

213:21 220:12 221:12

226:21 227:17 228:10

228:12 229:2,15

230:7 244:20,22

255:4 267:13 277:1

278:18 280:1,8,14

puts 36:12 62:16 88:15

91:4 144:20 177:3

250:1 278:21

putting 4:19 29:20

47:17 50:17 59:21

60:13 61:13 63:6

87:15 108:20 113:17

280:2

Q

QR 76:11,18

quadrant 65:4

qualification 20:9

qualified 200:20 261:3

271:9,10 272:17

qualify 223:5

quality 240:14

quantify 42:5,14 64:9

65:9

quarter 7:6 138:10

215:5

quarterly 139:6

Quebec 236:1

queried 249:17

query 263:21

question 17:8 25:20

26:3 27:19 28:7 45:6

52:21,22 53:12 61:16

61:20 65:18 70:13

72:15,20,22 87:2 89:2

101:5 103:9 105:15

121:5,7,12 123:13

124:4 126:17 129:21

133:15 137:16 148:20

149:18 152:8 153:9

156:15 157:4 158:15

158:20 162:2,6

175:14,22 178:4

180:13 183:7 185:17

186:4,22 193:5 196:4

207:5 208:20 213:8

215:22 221:19 222:5

224:22 234:1 244:3

253:7 254:12 260:1

270:2 275:8

questions 5:13 63:20

89:10 95:15 99:8

143:12,14 147:3,19

222:14 261:22

quick 48:4 72:7 101:22

155:15

quicker 74:11

quickly 102:5

quite 100:9 118:11

133:20 272:14

quote 19:8

R

R22 135:2

radical 137:11

radio 75:10 87:13

rain 51:7

raise 58:3 59:3

raised 68:4 72:15 186:4

212:9 230:5

raises 233:22

ran 97:14

Rand 1:15 20:16 38:7

102:15 111:21 126:10

179:5 186:7 187:3

197:21 198:13 246:12

270:17

random 168:7 243:1,3

262:4

range 141:17 269:19

ranges 78:18 79:2

ranging 43:4

rank 6:8

rant 66:19

rapidly 133:20

rate 237:18

rated 54:3

rates 92:16 226:9

rating 161:9

ratings 55:15 224:10

ratio 269:6

Rawald 1:22 6:13 9:1,1

9:13 16:22 19:19

23:18 26:7 36:8 42:1

43:15,21 48:3 52:20

56:16 59:2 67:11 68:8

69:9 73:2 75:5,18

76:5,10 77:13 81:9

84:11 85:3 86:7 90:16

90:21 91:10 96:14

97:20 100:10 103:19

105:3 106:10 109:5

113:6 115:3 116:20

118:18 121:4 124:10

129:4 131:6 135:22

138:2 140:11 141:10

143:9 148:14 150:1

151:6 152:8 154:12

155:14 158:11 159:1

160:1,21 162:1 163:6

163:20 165:17 170:6

172:8 175:13 177:19

180:9 182:13,22

183:20 185:20 187:10

189:10,20 190:8

191:7 192:9 194:9

196:3 199:9 203:13

205:13 210:18 215:21

221:2 241:16 243:7

246:22 251:20 254:1

257:1 263:8 264:8

274:16 275:7 276:8

276:15

Rawald's 197:11

Ray 1:16 53:12,14

91:19

re-certify 119:7

reach 54:19 98:21

173:17

reaching 81:15 92:22

93:20

react 135:10 268:2

reactive 267:21 268:4,5

read 19:21 34:8 35:19

readily 54:18 57:18

reading 31:20 199:14

ready 10:3 67:12

122:22

real 30:4 32:13 38:13

41:16 48:3 51:14

55:17 58:8 99:10

114:13 151:19 155:14

168:13 174:7 269:7,7

reality 87:21 134:14

261:16

really 16:11 21:13

29:13 33:7 37:13

38:21 39:5 40:8 52:20

54:9,9,19 55:18 57:1

58:13 60:4,14 61:19

64:12 67:14 73:7 78:4

81:10 86:8 87:14

103:5 105:11,15

113:5 116:4,11

119:17 122:6 126:14

129:22 137:6 138:6

141:18 142:5,7,18

143:1 145:15 148:20

152:9 170:15 171:7,7

171:15 172:7 175:8

176:11,13,19 177:2

181:12 183:11 184:10

187:16,19 190:9,10

190:21 194:13 196:22

199:15,20 200:12

202:8,18 203:9 204:1

204:3,6 206:22

207:14 218:6,20

223:13 229:5 236:11

238:10 241:17 246:16

247:16 253:13 254:4

254:7,12 257:2,11,12

259:20 261:22 262:15

262:16 264:22 265:19

265:20 266:5,11,15

268:12 271:21 273:6

273:7,9 274:1 279:15

realm 192:2

reason 116:11 151:13

172:21 191:18 192:17

198:20 217:1 230:13

275:7

reasonability 201:20

reasonable 39:2,14

64:4,10,13,16 86:21

110:4 170:3 201:19

202:5 256:5 263:3

reasonably 13:20

153:10

reasons 41:6,18 137:3
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163:10 233:9

rebate 23:6

rebates 12:11

recall 86:2 248:18

270:4

Recap 3:10

receive 258:3

received 165:4

recognition 144:15

recognizable 57:2

recognize 164:16

197:21

recognizes 21:16

recommend 218:15

recommendation

112:17

recommended 17:20

recommending 70:3

reconstitutes 121:1

record 19:21 25:10,13

106:20 164:2 171:11

204:9,22 205:6

212:11,13 214:18

216:1 218:1,17 220:3

220:17 232:10 245:15

245:22 246:17 250:3

253:4,14,20 255:8,15

256:12 263:3 280:22

record-keeping 266:20

267:7

recorded 165:7

records 3:9 204:17

208:18 210:1,2

211:14,18,19,22

212:20 213:1,5,6,6,10

213:21 215:8,15

216:1,3 217:7,18,21

218:19,22 219:3

220:8 231:21 232:5

242:5 243:8 244:3,8

245:8 246:15 248:6

250:4 251:6,15 252:1

252:15,21 253:14

255:20 256:7 257:5

257:10 261:4,12,14

261:21 262:15 263:2

263:17,22 264:3,11

267:16 269:7

reduced 147:14

redundant 160:17

refer 124:1

reference 214:1

referring 94:13

reflect 40:5

refrigerant 90:4 180:7

refrigerants 89:20

Refrigeration 2:4,8

refrigerator 60:8,10

refused 117:3

regard 103:11 210:5

214:10

regarding 24:9 217:5

255:8 271:19

regardless 39:6 236:7

region 13:9 157:21

212:1 218:5 241:2

266:16

regional 1:3 3:5 19:4

84:2 89:6 93:8,12

94:15 97:2 100:7

120:2 123:12 124:8

129:10 153:11 157:20

162:10 208:8 240:4

255:9 257:13

regions 84:7 94:18

109:19 254:15

register 226:6 227:9

233:21

registered 236:8

registering 234:11

registration 234:8

235:15,18 236:2,12

regs 47:5

regular 86:16 128:21

168:4

regularized 218:11

regularly 119:2

regulate 160:11 239:7

regulating 114:11

regulation 81:13 82:7

97:9 99:13 124:12,18

125:1 127:11 128:8

129:20 130:8 140:18

regulations 19:9 82:6

273:16

regulatory 126:19

149:10 151:7

rehashing 131:1

reincorporating 119:6

reinforcing 250:1

reiterate 230:9

reiterated 148:5

related 63:21 183:7

213:8

relates 190:21 257:12

relations 180:21

relationship 50:3,14

92:5

relationships 117:22

relatively 52:14 66:13

138:22 223:17 273:18

273:21

relax 277:2

release 129:8

relevance 233:4

relevant 236:1 246:13

reliable 230:12

reliant 21:12

relying 44:10

remain 149:19

remedies 234:18

remember 5:9 60:16

93:10,11 224:6

remembering 14:11

44:11

remind 11:7

reminder 5:4 74:16

remove 46:10

rename 118:10

renegade 269:11

reorient 16:7

rep 99:3

repairs 45:11

repeat 123:3

repeated 41:11 188:17

repeatedly 133:15

repeats 59:15

repercussions 229:10

replacements 21:9

270:6

report 25:13 48:19

145:1 169:1,5,14

171:5 176:17,18

185:3 186:1 188:5,8

188:10 189:12 192:15

193:17,18 194:8,22

278:14 279:3,11

reported 189:16 192:19

212:14 218:8,10

243:1 251:4

REPORTER 123:3

reporting 34:17 165:22

168:19 171:9 187:12

188:7,19,21 189:8

190:10 218:4 222:8,9

237:6 241:8 243:6

reports 247:4

representative 21:2

29:8

represented 66:9 143:1

representing 203:16

reputable 278:7

request 24:21 25:2 57:5

74:22 150:5 176:1

214:22 217:8,15

258:3,11

requested 213:2 264:3

requests 208:15 209:1

264:17

require 25:18 67:8

81:14 111:12 147:22

153:21 188:6 242:15

required 16:17 35:9,18

46:21 61:11 80:15,17

81:19 82:6 129:22

132:11 139:15,20,21

169:13 175:10,12

185:15 217:6 236:2

241:8 265:3

requirement 14:17

44:21 63:1 71:8 74:18

126:1,2,6 128:3

131:15 139:22 148:22

149:21 151:8 157:2

159:18 185:16 186:20

186:21 187:1 188:9

215:19 217:17 218:2

227:17 241:12 246:1

249:15 253:4 255:8

266:21 270:9 271:14

requirements 12:11

14:12 15:13 19:1

20:11,14 23:5 34:17

46:19 52:7 126:20

185:18 249:12 253:15

253:19,20 254:14

267:13 270:19,20

requires 78:20 205:17

274:5

requiring 30:22 124:12

127:17 153:20 163:12

research 78:12

researching 38:4

reservations 275:1

reserve 125:2

residential 240:10

resolved 147:13 162:21

resonate 104:16

resonating 58:12

resort 74:9

resource 148:18 149:8

resources 1:20 8:2,4

73:22 86:5 165:13

180:12 257:4

respect 75:21 163:13

193:11 235:5

respectfully 189:18

respective 64:20 116:7

respond 20:16 28:7

30:1 35:4 70:21

135:10 181:21

response 17:8 116:22

149:15 165:2,9,10

172:22 215:22 258:10

responsibilities 4:14

responsibility 45:3

70:11 188:16,20

250:2,3

responsible 63:5

196:14

rest 121:14 141:19

result 92:17 114:14
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results 25:14

resumed 25:11 106:21

164:3

retail 78:15 128:9 271:8

retailer 35:9 71:14

111:14 271:8

retailer's 271:14

retailers 19:11,17 20:12

retain 217:6 249:6

255:20 257:5

retained 209:3 216:2

257:10 263:18

retaining 208:18,20

215:15

retains 256:7

retention 3:9 204:9,17

204:22 205:6 210:1

211:14 212:12 214:19

216:1 218:1,17 220:3

231:6 232:10 245:16

245:22 246:17,20

248:17 249:15 250:3

252:20 253:4 255:8

255:16 256:10,12

263:3,3

retract 145:5

return 222:18 226:3

returned 225:18

returns 162:4

revealed 159:12

review 6:5 10:2 141:4

258:6

RFID 75:11 77:1 78:7

78:12

Rheem 1:20 24:21

25:16 28:22 30:1 35:4

59:7 82:22 99:3 107:7

131:12 146:6 175:10

232:22 264:21

Rheem's 99:4

rheem.com 94:7

ride 239:4

riding 269:19

right 4:3,8 9:13,14,21

12:6 14:9 25:12 26:7

33:1 34:13 42:1 46:5

48:10 50:2,11 52:5,18

53:6 55:12 56:19

62:15 63:8,9 94:2,3

95:6 106:15 112:7

115:2,3 119:17 125:2

131:6,13 138:21

140:12 142:1 143:22

144:20 145:9 148:9

162:20 163:1 164:4

165:17 175:13 177:19

185:8 190:20 191:3

196:3 197:15 205:13

206:14 208:16 210:19

219:1 224:10,12

227:20 228:18 229:19

229:20 231:12 237:10

238:7 239:4 245:18

246:21 254:1 255:13

259:13 264:11 267:16

274:17 275:14 276:8

278:15 280:19

rip 90:11

risk 116:9 118:12 201:6

river 233:21 234:12

265:15

road 47:1 142:10

roadblock 134:22 150:7

robbed 50:5 62:8 228:7

robust 182:8

rocket 136:12

Rocky 2:2 14:10,10

80:11,11 94:13

153:16,16 154:22

role 232:10

room 30:8 38:17 60:2

194:21 203:3 204:14

227:3 268:8 274:13

274:14 276:17

rotate 117:15

rough 271:20

route 79:1

routes 128:6

routine 95:4 108:17

113:12 122:11 184:3

190:6 192:14 195:8

195:10,11,19 196:6

196:16,17 198:3,21

204:2 243:22 252:11

routinely 156:6 196:10

Roy 2:2 14:16,16

rugged-ized 51:3

rule 17:3 64:3 80:10,13

82:10,18 83:11

125:14 140:14 199:14

215:20 265:3

rulemaking 17:5

rules 35:8 64:2 83:10

83:15 115:17 139:2

144:2 149:14 156:1

192:22 195:18 254:20

257:20

run 99:11 118:6 182:11

237:18 238:7 261:5

261:20 262:10

running 174:19 268:16

runs 241:13

S

S 260:4,14,14

S.W 1:11

SACHS 2:3 39:9 40:4

43:1,18 65:16 74:15

75:20 76:8,11 83:18

84:18 149:17 174:17

188:11 189:17 248:15

268:6 278:3

Sachs's 180:22

safety 29:13 52:7 139:4

140:5

sake 198:18

sale 13:17 34:5,6 43:8

154:1,7 218:11

269:10

sales 3:3 15:22 79:5,13

101:19 192:13 193:20

salesperson 222:8

Sam 260:20

sample 223:8 224:5,12

240:14 243:2 251:7

sanction 188:7

sand 197:16

satellites 77:4

satisfy 141:5 156:20

savings 92:18

savvy 36:13

saw 66:5 89:19 144:17

177:15 280:10

saying 21:10 24:4 37:1

37:22 38:13 39:5 40:9

43:8 47:18 54:21

66:10 68:5 69:15 71:6

74:4 114:6 120:10

124:16 144:16 146:3

146:12 159:12 165:3

173:5,20,20 178:6

186:19 187:5 191:8

216:17 227:18 228:2

228:2,14 239:15

249:1 267:18

says 13:13,17 24:8

26:21 31:21 32:9 34:4

36:16,18,20 59:11

60:16 66:1 82:10 97:9

99:20 107:14 130:6

130:13 132:10 140:18

143:10 151:12 157:17

159:7 167:9 181:1

216:13 220:20 240:9

scanner 32:5 77:18

78:17

scenario 36:9 194:11

247:19 273:19

scenarios 26:14 37:1

177:11 195:1 219:12

schedule 9:5

scheduled 9:2 68:9

274:20 275:14

science 136:12

scope 127:9 231:7

232:8 243:18 279:18

screen 152:13

script 135:19

scrutiny 189:14 219:1

seal 270:9,11 273:17

search 56:7 158:1

213:13,13 264:18

searchability 152:22

searchable 264:13

seated 179:11

SEC 182:6,7,13

second 25:22 26:4

41:13 126:13 179:1

229:3 235:19 274:19

276:6 280:11

secondly 18:17 223:18

Secretary 166:4

Secrets 259:4

see 6:17 12:6 13:20

16:4 18:16 34:11,13

46:2 55:7 73:18 75:7

79:11 81:22 91:8

99:18 104:18 105:22

110:22 114:1 119:15

125:3 142:5,13 150:6

152:15 155:15 156:13

162:15 170:15,20

173:18 176:21 179:11

179:11 186:2 188:18

193:2 194:12 200:22

201:12 203:11 206:2

207:16 208:3 209:5

223:8 228:14,22

232:7 234:18 237:20

246:9 255:11 267:12

272:3 275:6 280:20

seeing 61:22 64:5 86:2

123:8 145:17 242:7,8

seek 83:20

seemingly 253:5

seen 13:6 59:19 62:3,16

66:17 118:14 185:11

185:12 250:20 259:5

SEER 24:5,9,13,18

26:21,22 27:7,7,16

34:1 53:5,7,8 54:3

55:7,8,8,14 56:20

57:2 58:19 73:8,10

95:13 99:21 100:3

101:21 102:1,2,2

104:22 135:6,7

136:13 146:8 160:18

171:2 177:15 179:12

183:3 208:13 232:16

239:17,17 242:19

249:20 265:5
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self-enforcing 34:14

sell 19:13 45:13 99:22

101:17 116:11 117:10

131:14,20 146:8,13

213:16 224:3 265:15

265:16 272:9

sell-through 144:14

145:21 146:2,3,6,15

207:6

selling 99:21 110:21

132:15

seminar 137:15

seminars 95:21

send 71:3,18,22 92:7

184:13 210:9 211:20

213:4 214:21 272:2

sends 260:9,10

sense 4:3 37:9 38:16

69:1 81:17 90:10

108:10 119:18 125:18

128:2 138:11 145:19

148:7,22 176:11

178:20 201:10 205:10

206:4 209:17 264:6

269:5,13 270:14

278:7

sensitive 178:14

sensitivity 240:5

sent 96:11 97:1 223:16

sentence 81:10

separate 182:5

separating 88:18

September 3:11 68:9

275:16

sequences 41:8

serial 23:11 55:15 76:3

144:19 206:21 207:10

207:13 213:16 215:11

215:13 231:17,18

264:17

serve 92:1,3

served 205:11

service 47:20

servicing 26:17 27:2

44:17 50:15 78:6

session 124:5 139:10

145:7

set 5:11,14 45:18 49:12

101:11 182:21 185:17

198:13 202:13 229:13

setting 161:6

settlement 97:10

severe 57:19

shaking 125:3 154:21

share 230:16

shareholders 260:16

sharing 255:16 256:19

256:21 257:14

sheet 59:14 261:9

Shepherd 2:4 125:21

125:22 150:14 193:13

193:14

ship 61:1 237:8 256:3,6

256:7

shipment 240:22

shipments 74:6 215:3

233:3 255:20

shipped 12:6 208:11,12

256:17

shoot 261:17

shop 272:20

shoppers 228:22

shops 262:8

short 7:8 52:4 96:11

207:5 209:19 242:17

shortcoming 20:3

shortcomings 234:19

shortened 146:15

shorter 30:19 209:11

shortly 62:8

show 70:19 161:7

261:12

showed 48:14 237:20

showing 139:10

shown 151:22 152:12

shows 159:3 233:1,3

side 6:16,18 53:15 65:6

77:8 110:11 111:1

129:20 142:6 177:16

233:20 234:12 254:22

268:21

sides 41:16 142:15

149:3 163:8

Sierra 84:5

sign 112:7,12 114:5

124:7 137:15 239:8

239:14 240:8

signature 239:22

signed 110:1 112:5

115:17

significant 5:1 41:21

137:10 179:21 241:14

243:2 251:7,18

significantly 147:14

226:10

signing 240:15

signs 43:7

similar 89:13 98:13

Similarly 41:2

simple 34:18 49:8,11

99:7 138:22 147:18

147:21 185:12 224:5

267:3

simpler 78:9 155:21

simplicity 56:2

simply 28:8 30:8 38:16

99:10 112:7,11

172:14 185:1 199:1

243:5

single 33:20 92:10

167:16 250:13

single-phase 24:12

sir 123:4

sit 104:4 204:3 233:18

site 12:4,5,7 14:8 23:10

23:15 108:12 161:10

234:8 251:4

sitting 4:5 105:1

situation 46:8 80:15

98:6 108:20 130:3

205:3 220:2

Six-pack 268:20 269:8

278:8

size 11:17 47:4,6 50:20

63:3 65:21 128:14

129:2 145:12 223:8

224:6

sizes 102:11

skeptical 194:21

skill 40:16

skip 204:8

skirt 144:1

skittish 173:13

slanderous 195:15

slice 63:14

slide 146:20 172:5

slides 8:17 10:11,19

11:6

slightly 28:4

slippery 114:13

slope 114:13

sloppy 219:5

small 2:12 8:7,12,14

9:10 10:9,12,15,22

11:8 107:16 262:8

smaller 33:13 73:11

272:6

smart 86:12

Smith 213:14,20 244:21

Smith's 211:16 213:19

213:19 231:20 244:21

251:13

so-and-so 99:2

software 265:10

sold 20:21 36:18 58:22

59:12 60:17 101:13

207:18,19 211:8

221:8,8,11 244:14

250:18 253:11 256:18

261:6,12 265:6

sole 260:5,17 262:7

solely 13:3

solid 116:11

solution 74:9 219:15

228:15 267:3

solutions 276:20

solve 157:10

somebody 27:19 34:8

34:10,22 44:10 45:8

63:7 72:16 75:12

76:22 88:10 93:11

99:20 144:4,16

168:22 171:16,21

173:11 176:1 177:3,8

177:14 179:7 194:11

195:5 197:4,5 214:2

221:16 227:19 228:7

234:4 239:14 278:21

279:10

someone's 172:15

195:9

someplace 207:21

somewhat 68:6 160:12

238:9

son 76:12

soon 133:21

sophisticated 164:16

273:8

sorry 10:13 25:1 76:12

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unsophisticated 273:3

unusual 55:5 202:13

unwanted 37:14

unwilling 38:12

unworkable 187:4

updated 119:2

upgraded 236:5

upset 143:16

upstanding 269:21

upwards 43:19

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usable 17:10

usage 91:12

use 3:6 41:7 57:14 60:5

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user-friendly 163:4

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usually 92:1 93:7

260:11 268:21

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valid 118:20

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validity 177:4

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value 24:5 27:16 37:12

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120:5,9 158:21

159:13 207:22 242:19

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variation 212:19

varies 224:7

variety 43:3

various 41:3 43:9,10

123:20 167:5 241:4

242:5

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vast 20:20 223:19

veered 200:9

vendors 140:3

venue 124:1

verbal 42:18

verify 40:21 174:7

207:13 247:21

verifying 37:17

versed 55:3

versions 94:17

versus 30:22 60:15

99:13 108:19 158:13

166:13,13 207:8

254:15 269:7,14,15

272:9

videos 148:1

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38:5 48:19 66:16

69:11,14,17 73:15

78:1 81:18 86:16

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134:15,16 138:17

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155:16 187:5 189:13

190:2 206:6 207:15

207:16 208:4,6

218:18 242:1 245:14

245:15 247:8 252:20

254:11 257:2

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violated 112:19

violates 191:21 259:4

violating 189:6 196:10

259:5 277:16

violation 112:4 122:12

169:14 182:3 185:22

186:2,2,10 187:20

190:5,6 196:18 215:8

231:8 243:14,19,20

251:4 256:14,14,16

267:9,9 268:2

violations 3:8 115:7

120:19 121:13 143:7

164:6 165:22 176:17

187:13,14 188:17

277:9 278:14

violator 112:22 113:12

121:11 192:7,14,16

192:22 193:12 195:8

195:10,12,19 196:6

196:16 198:3,21

204:3 231:7 234:11

244:1 252:11 277:6

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visibility 11:16

visible 14:21 16:2 18:15

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visiting 93:3

visualize 108:4 111:17

115:18

voice 168:3

voiced 119:12

voicemail 168:2,4

169:10

voicemails 168:6

volume 167:22

voluntarily 14:4 16:14

voluntary 18:18 47:8

185:16 241:9

volunteer 68:1 86:14

volunteered 184:1

vote 82:2

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wait 275:5,21 276:11,13

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

308

waiver 9:11,16,21 11:5

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55:7 61:15 118:2

228:22

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wall 60:9 183:2

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7:19 9:20 10:2,16

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37:12 38:9 42:9,18

45:11 46:6,12 47:1,2

48:7,8,10 50:3 51:10

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58:13 59:8 62:10,18

65:17 66:15 67:9,15

67:22 68:2,13,20 69:8

72:4 73:6,7 74:13

75:12 79:10 80:8,9

81:13,19 82:11,16

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109:8 110:20 112:16

112:20,22 113:5,16

117:6 119:14,16

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

309

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216:16 250:14,16,18

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269:15 276:9

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20 58:9 118:16 141:9,11

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20-plus 141:14

2011 90:14

2012 89:21 261:3

2013 89:21

2014 1:8

203 3:9

21 72:17,19,22 73:5

22 136:16 220:15

25 25:8 207:9

250,000 92:3

273 3:11

28 1:8 55:7

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3 3:11 73:4,4 130:13

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3-year 260:22 263:4

30 94:17

300 78:18

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40-hour 137:15

400 224:9

410 135:3 136:16

45 147:2

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5 22:10 72:20 118:17

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5-year 209:7

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500,000 97:2

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9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

310

Central Air Conditioners Regional

Standards Enforcement Working Group

US DOE

08-28-14

Washington, DC