1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.

13 Tuesday, July 29, 2014

14

15 Room 1153 A

16 William Jefferson Clinton East Building 

17 1201 Constitution Avenue Northwest

18 Washington, D.C. 20004

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1 EPA PANEL 1:

2 TOM POWERS, Panel 1 Chair; EPA 

3 JOE BRYSON, EPA 

4 GABRIELLE STEVENS, EPA

5

6 EPA PANEL 2:

7 WILLIAM NIEBLING, Panel 2 Chair; EPA 

8 BETH CONLIN, EPA

9 MARGAUERITE MCLAMB, EPA

10

11 EPA PANEL 3:

12 WILLIAM NIEBLING, Panel 2 Chair; EPA 

13 BETH CONLIN, EPA

14 MARGAUERITE MCLAMB, EPA

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 HAL QUINN, National Mining Association 17

4 MARGIE ALT, Environment America 25

5 PAUL CICIO, Industrial Consumers of

6 America 30

7 ANN BURCHARD, Maryland Resident 37

8 REVEREND DELMAN COATES, Ennon Baptist Church 40

9 SARAH BUCCI, Environment Virginia 43

10 CONGRESSWOMAN SHELLEY CAPITO, West Virginia 48

11 WILLIAM BECKER, National Association of 

12 Clean Air Agencies 54

13 FRED PALMER, Peabody Energy 59

14 IVY MAIN, Sierra Club 64

15 CONGRESSWOMAN LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 68

16 COLLIN O'MARA, National Wildlife Federation 72

17 LENA MOFFITT, National Wildlife Federation 80

18 GEORGIA MURRAY, Appalachian Mount Club 86

19 HANNAH WIEGARD, Appalachian Voices 91

20 JEFF FENG, Appalachian Voices 96

21 SENATOR JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon 99

22 GOVENOR JACK MARKELL, Oregon 105

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SENATOR ED MARKEY, Massachusetts 110

4 GREG DOTSON, Center for American Progress 115

5 FRED KRUPP, Environmental American Progress 120

6 LYNDSAY MOSELEY ALEXANDER, American Lung 

7 Association 124

8 MATT SCHLAPP, American Conservative Union 129

9 PAMELA ELLIS, West Virginia Resident 134

10 ANYA ELLIS, West Virginia Resident 134

11 ZAPORAH ELLIS, West Virginia Resident 134

12 AMANDA GARDNER, Sierra Club, WV 141

13 GRAHAM SMITH-WHITE, West Virginia Resident 142

14 JEFFREY HOLMSTEAD, Electric Reliability

15 Coordinating Council 147

16 MARY MARTIN, U.S. Chamber of Commerce 152

17 CONGRESSWOMAN ANNA ESHOO, California 158

18 S. DEAR SCHRAMM-SATAYATHUM, Wabash Valley

19 Power 164

20 JOHN NOVAK, National Rural Electric 

21 Cooperation Association 171

22 AMANDA JO DIVITA, West Virginia Resident 176

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 ANDRE SAUVAGEOT, Interstate Traveling Co. 179

4 BRUCE BURTON, International Brotherhood

5 Of Electrical Workers 183

6 PAULA JACKSON, American Assoc. of Blacks 

7 In Energy 188

8 LEAH QUSBA, Alliance for Climate Education 198

9 LESLIE FIELDS, Sierra Club, D.C. 204

10 CATHERINE TOMASSON, Physicians for Social 

11 Responsibility 211

12 REBECCA FORBES, Canadian Citizen 215

13 ROBIN MANN, Rosemont, PA Resident 220

14 NANCY KUNZ-MERRY, Moms for Clean Air, NJ 225

15 JACK KUNZ-MERRY, New Jersey Resident 228

16 CHRISTOPHER MAYO, Center for Biological 

17 Diversity 229

18 RACHEL MORALES, Environment America 232

19 ELIZABETH GLASS-GELTMAN, City University,

20 School of Public Health 234

21 MARY CRUTCHFIELD, Sierra Club 241

22 RICHARD W. VESEL SR., U.S. Citizen 244

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SHANNON MINOR, V.A. Commonwealth University 251

4 WILLIAM COZZENS, U.S. Citizen 252

5 RONALD SCHLESINGER, U.S. Citizen 255

6 SCOTT BURGER, Sierra Club 257

7 ROBERT YOUNG, Alliance for Climate Education 259

8 CORYN WOLK, Clean Air Council 263

9 DEDE SMITH, Charlottesville, VA Vice Mayor 269

10 CHRIS DURRER, Sierra Club 274

11 TIM WHITCOMBE, Henrico, VA Resident 278

12 ERIN FAGAN, Sierra Club 282

13 RYAN ARNOLD, U.S. Citizen 284

14 LAURA KAPLAN, Sierra Club, Delaware 287

15 CORALIE PRYDE, U.S. Citizen 293

16 BRENNA PEREZ, Old Dominion University 298

17 JOHN COMELL, Philadelphia, PA Resident 300

18 TARA LOSOFF, National Wildlife Federation 302

19 SUSAN MILLER, National Wildlife Federation 305

20 MARIA STELLA, Chesterfield, VA Resident 311

21 NAOMI EDELSON, National Wildlife Federation 314

22 ILLANA NAYLOR, Manassas, VA Resident 320

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MALCOLM ODELL JR., U.S. Citizen 326

4 JEFFREY HYMAN, U.S. Citizen 333

5 DEAN HUBBERD, Sierra Club 342

6 CARTER RIES, One More Generation 342

7 OLIVIA RIES, One More Generation 342

8 RICHARD MCCORKLE, Delaware Resident 346

9 LAURA HENDERSON, Delaware Resident 351

10 MICHAEL ZEHR, Consumer Energy Alliance 353

11 MARY LAURAN HALL, Washington, D.C. Resident 358

12 JAYCE HAFNER, Episcopal Church 361

13 KATHLEEN LAUREL IMLAY, Maryland Resident 364

14 ADELINE ROLNICK, National Wildlife Federation 366

15 AVIVA GLASER, National Wildlife Federation 

16 Reading for Dick Penny 369

17 AMBER HEWITT, National Wildlife Federation 372

18 BARBARA BRAMBLE, Washington, D.C. Resident 377

19 PRABH SHARAN SINGH, U.S. Citizen 381

20 BENTLEY JOHNSON, National Wildlife Federation

21 Reading for Dick Deborah Hanson 385

22

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 EVA ROBEN, National Wildlife Federation

4 Reading for Beverly Newman 388

5 ISHMAEL BUCKNER, Washington, D.C. Citizen 391

6 JULIA BROOKS, U.S. Citizen 399

7 MATTHEW GRAVATT, Sierra Club 408

8 COLLIN REES, Sustain U.S. 413

9 MOLLY SIMON, National Wildlife Federation

10 Reading for Burr Tupper, Trout Unlimited 417

11 SAMANTHA LOCKHART, National Wildlife Fed.

12 Reading for Richard Mode 421

13 RAMON PALENCIA-CALVO, Maryland League of

14 Conservation Voters 427

15 JAMES COLIN, U.S. and Japan Citizen 432

16 STEPHANIE HERON, Sierra Club 435

17 JOSEPH POWER, Ameren Corporation 441

18 TOM QUINN, Washington, D.C. Resident 447

19 LUKAS ROSS, Friends of the Earth 452

20 MARISSA KNODEL, Friends of the Earth 455

21 KATE DEANGELIS, Friends of the Earth 459

22 LUISA ABBOTT-GALVAO, Friends of the Earth 464

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 REBECCA BLOOD, National Hydropower Assoc. 467

4 EMMA MCGONIGLE, Washington, D.C. Resident 475

5 MATT CARR, Algae Biomass Organization 480

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. POWERS: Good morning, 

3 everybody. My watch says 9:00 so I think we'll 

4 get started. My name is Tom Powers. I'm one of 

5 the chairs of this morning's public hearing. 

6 There's also a simultaneous hearing over across 

7 the hall in Panel Room B. 

8 Thank you all very much for coming today. 

9 Joining me on the panel this morning, to my right 

10 is Gabrielle Stevens, to my left is Joe Bryson. 

11 We're here today to listen to your comments on 

12 two proposed rules to reduce carbon pollution 

13 from power plants. 

14 EPA announced both of these proposed 

15 rules on June 2nd of this year. 

16 Power plants are the largest source of 

17 carbon pollution in the United States, accounting 

18 for roughly a third of all domestic greenhouse 

19 gas emissions. 

20 The first of the two rules is EPA's 

21 proposed Clean Power Plan for Existing Power 

22 Plants. This proposal consists of two main 

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1 parts, state specific goals to lower carbon 

2 pollution from power plants in their state, and 

3 guidelines to help states develop their plans for 

4 meeting those goals.

5 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

6 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

7 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

8 they'll achieve the needed reductions and meet 

9 their goals by the year 2030.

10 The second rule we will hear testimony 

11 today on is EPA's proposed rule to address carbon 

12 dioxide emissions from modified and reconstructed 

13 power plants. This rule would set emission 

14 limits for two groups of power plants; those that 

15 make physical or operation changes that increase 

16 the plant's maximum achievable hourly rate of 

17 emissions, and those that replace components to 

18 such an extent that the new components exceed 50 

19 percent of the total capital cost of an entirely 

20 new comparable facility.

21 If you'd like more details on either of 

22 these proposed rules there are fact sheets 

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1 available near the registration desk that you 

2 passed when you came in from the outside.

3 Today's hearing is one of four public 

4 hearings across the country this week on the two 

5 proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 

6 each of the hearings and I want to thank you for 

7 taking time out of your day today to join us and 

8 share your comments.

9 We have a lot of people signed up to 

10 speak today and we want to hear from all of them. 

11 So before we get started I'll go through just a 

12 few housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

13 help make today's hearing run smoothly.

14 First, please be sure you've checked in 

15 at the registration desk, even if you're not 

16 planning to speak. And if you signed up to speak 

17 online or by phone but haven't told us you're 

18 here, please step out to the registration desk 

19 and let the EPA staff there know that you've 

20 arrived.

21 Second, if you're a speaker you were 

22 given a room letter when you checked in, either 

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1 Room A or Room B. This is Room A. If you're 

2 looking for Room B this would be a good time to 

3 switch. B is right across the hall.

4 All right. So here's how today's hearing 

5 will work. I'll call up the speakers in pairs. 

6 When your name is called please come to the table 

7 in the front of the room right here. I will try 

8 to the extent that I have cards, ahead of time to 

9 give people a heads up of who is on deck and will 

10 be coming up shortly so you can be prepared to 

11 know that you're coming up shortly.

12 When I call on you to speak please state 

13 your name, any organization that you're speaking 

14 on behalf of or part of, and spell it for the 

15 court reporter. Your comment will be transcribed 

16 and included in the record of comments on the 

17 proposed rule.

18 Each speaker will have up to five minutes 

19 to give comments. We have a light to help you 

20 know how much time you have left to speak. Our 

21 ace time keeper over here to my right is 

22 Gabrielle. When the light turns from green to 

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1 yellow that means you have one minute left. When 

2 it turns red that's the signal to wrap up your 

3 testimony. It will flash red and beep when you 

4 have spoken for five minutes and it's time to 

5 stop.

6 I would also encourage anybody, if they 

7 come to the conclusion of their testimony before 

8 five minutes, that's okay. We do not give any 

9 extra credit for talking more and brevity is 

10 always appreciated. Please feel free to make the 

11 points you want but don't feel bad if your light 

12 hasn't turned red yet when you finish.

13 When you're finished speaking please wait 

14 at the table until the person next to you has 

15 completed his or her testimony, and then I'll 

16 call up the next pair.

17 We're here today to listen to you and 

18 that's the primary focus. Either Joe or 

19 Gabrielle or I may possibly ask you questions to 

20 clarify a comment. 

21 If you brought a written copy of your 

22 testimony please give that to the staff at the 

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1 registration desk before you leave. 

2 Because the large number of people who 

3 signed up to speak today, and we did have people 

4 sign up for all of the available slots, so we 

5 expect it to be very busy throughout the entire 

6 day. And to be sure that we're fair to everyone 

7 we're going to strictly enforce the five minute 

8 limit. 

9 The panel is going to be here anyway, but 

10 we really want to make sure that the people who 

11 are waiting to testify have their chance to. So 

12 we appreciate everybody wrapping up at their time 

13 limit.

14 If you have additional comments you want 

15 to make you can make them in writing. Let me 

16 assure you EPA gives just as much consideration 

17 to comments that we receive in writing as we do 

18 to comments that we receive at the public 

19 hearings like this one. So if you have more that 

20 you'd like to say, please do submit it.

21 There's still plenty of time to get 

22 written comments in after today. And there will 

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1 be comment cards available at the registration 

2 desk. We're taking in comments until October 

3 16th of this year. We'll put any written 

4 comments submitted today in the official docket 

5 for the proposed rule.

6 Instructions for submitting written 

7 comments in other ways are available at the 

8 materials table near the registration desk.

9 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

10 tonight. We'll take a lunch and dinner break so 

11 everyone can get something to eat, and those are 

12 scheduled from noon to 1:00 and 5:00 to 6:00.

13 On occasion we -- in addition we may take 

14 an occasional break throughout the day. We'll 

15 keep you posted as the day goes on.

16 If you have any questions, please see the 

17 staff at the registration desk, or anybody with 

18 one of these handy-dandy very expensive name tags 

19 that the EPA staff are wearing. Someone will try 

20 and help you.

21 Finally, this is kind of stating the 

22 obvious, but I'd urge each of you to be 

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1 respectful to everyone who speaks today. We have 

2 people with a wide variety of views in the 

3 audience. We want to hear from everyone. We ask 

4 that people hold applause. Do not applaud, that 

5 takes time. Ask you to listen quietly.

6 Thank you again for taking time today to 

7 share your comments with us on the proposed 

8 rules. We're eager to hear from you so let's get 

9 started.

10 The first names I have are Hal Quinn and 

11 Margie or Margie Alt. 

12 MR. QUINN: So I assume that I'm first, 

13 then, Mr. Powers?

14 MR. POWERS: You would have the very 

15 distinguished honor of being first, yes.

16 MR. QUINN: Well, thank you very much and 

17 I thank the panel and EPA for this opportunity. 

18 My name is Hal Quinn, Q-U-I-N-N. I am 

19 President and Chief Executive Officer of the 

20 National Mining Association. 

21 The National Mining Association is the 

22 national trade association of our domestic mining 

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1 industry. Our members produce coal and uranium, 

2 two fuels that comprise 60 percent of our current 

3 electricity supply. They also produce the metals 

4 and minerals essential for every segment of our 

5 society, as well as the manufacturers, the 

6 machinery, equipment, and supplies.

7 So we are energy producers, energy users, 

8 and developers of technology and other innovation 

9 that keeps our industry productive, as well as 

10 our nation competitive globally.

11 EPA's carbon dioxide emission proposal 

12 for existing power plants is another step in this 

13 administration's policies designed to eliminate 

14 low-cost and reliable electricity and replace it 

15 with more expensive and less reliable sources. 

16 The proposal, in our view, is a stunning 

17 attempt to remake the nation's entire electric 

18 grid. Reducing the diversity of our nation's 

19 electricity supply and raising its costs will 

20 impair our economic recovery, as well as our 

21 future growth.

22 In those regions of the country where 

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1 coal serves as the predominant source of 

2 electricity generation, retail electricity rates 

3 are 30 to 50 percent lower than regions with 

4 lower shares of coal generated electricity.

5 EPA estimates that the proposal will 

6 displace 27 percent of low-cost coal generation 

7 electricity within the next 10 years. This will 

8 result in the direct loss of at least 200,000 

9 high wage jobs in the coal supply chain. 

10 The fact of the matter is that whenever a 

11 coal miner loses his or her job, every American 

12 loses. They lose energy and economic security, 

13 and perhaps their own jobs that depend on low14 cost reliable electricity.

15 EPA's proposal is also based on a complex 

16 web of assumptions, many of them implausible 

17 about future energy demand, dramatic shifts in 

18 generation sources, adding more intermittent

19 sources for generation, and reducing energy use.

20 Each of these assumptions, what EPA calls 

21 building blocks, rests upon a weak foundation. 

22 Let me just mention a few. 

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1 Increased efficiency of coal based load 

2 power plants. Most of the six percent efficiency 

3 gain EPA assumes comes from the deployment of 

4 recommended operation and maintenance practices. 

5 For all practical purposes these practices are 

6 already routine and taking place since they make 

7 the power plants more economic and therefore more 

8 profitable.

9 At the same time earlier rules EPA issued 

10 two years ago require extensive retrofits of 

11 existing plants that will make them less 

12 efficient. And the present proposal will force 

13 many of those coal plants to run at reduced and 

14 suboptimal levels which in turn will also make 

15 them less efficient.

16 Building block no. 2, redispatching from 

17 coal and natural gas power plants. EPA assumes 

18 that natural gas power plants can run at 70 

19 percent capacity factors. There's no technical 

20 or economic evidence that these plants can 

21 sustain generation at this high level. EPA's 

22 assumption appears to be based upon plugging into 

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1 a model and assume carbon price, one well above 

2 those we see in current carbon trading schemes, 

3 rather than any analysis of the technical 

4 capabilities of the plants or gas delivery 

5 system.

6 Moreover, as EPA acknowledges, there's at 

7 least a 10 percent gap between the amount of 

8 natural gas needed to sustain this assumption and 

9 the current natural gas pipeline delivery system.

10 Building block no. 3 increased deployment 

11 of intermittent generation sources. The growth 

12 of renewable generation is highly dependent upon 

13 permitting, financing, transmission, access, and 

14 technical challenges posed by integration of 

15 intermittent electricity sources into the grid. 

16 We have not seen any indication how EPA is taking 

17 those factors into account.

18 Finally, building block no. 4, energy 

19 efficiency. The assumption of a 1.5 percent 

20 growth in energy efficiency, year over year, 

21 lacks any credible basis in our view. Over time 

22 potential energy savings decline significantly 

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1 absent some major technological breakthrough. 

2 EPA does not identify any breakthrough that would 

3 sustain an annual 1.5 percent growth in 

4 efficiency, and if such breakthroughs are not on 

5 the present horizon they will not be available 

6 during the 10 year period for achieving the 

7 proposed emission targets. 

8 As each building block crumbles it places 

9 additional pressure on the remaining ones and 

10 takes EPA's plan from the implausible to the 

11 impossible. EPA insists that it's providing 

12 states with flexibility to meet the targets, 

13 however the proposal places them into an energy 

14 straight jacket at the outset with each 

15 adjustment more painful economically and more 

16 risky for system reliability.

17 The real flexibility states need is the 

18 flexibility to maintain a diverse, low-cost, and 

19 reliable generation mix for their citizens, 

20 economic, and energy security. The value of 

21 generation diversity to stability in power 

22 supplies and prices is missing in action in this 

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1 proposal.

2 This past winter provided a clear warning

3 that our bulk power system is close to the edge 

4 of breaking, and additional power plant 

5 retirements induced by EPA rules would push it 

6 over the edge. Businesses and families in many 

7 parts of the country paid unprecedented high 

8 prices for electricity and saw their home heating 

9 bills spike as natural gas prices climbed with 

10 competing demand among power plants, factories, 

11 and households.

12 Coal based power plants supplied 92 

13 percent of the incremental demand for power this 

14 winter. What will happen if we experience 

15 another cold winter this year or the year after 

16 when many of those plants are closed due to EPA's 

17 earlier rules? 

18 An analysis performed by the Energy 

19 Ventures Analysis shows that wholesale power 

20 prices will rise 27 to 55 percent across 

21 different regions of the country. No state is 

22 spared. Businesses and households would pay $35 

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1 billion more for natural gas. 

2 These are the consequences of poorly 

3 designed policies, and the reason why EPA's 

4 assessment of the economic impacts of its rules 

5 inspires little confidence. After all EPA 

6 projected that the Agency's recent rules would 

7 cause less than 5,000 megawatts of power capacity 

8 to close. As it turns out, it will likely be 10 

9 to 12 times more. And this is all before the 

10 current proposal for carbon dioxide.

11 EPA's presentations about the proposal 

12 have generated many thoughtful questions, but in 

13 our view few, if any, definitive answers about 

14 how this rule can actually work. However, 

15 there's one inescapable fact; the cost and risks 

16 are real; the benefits are not.

17 EPA expects far too much when it asks 

18 governors to put their residents' economic and 

19 energy security at great risk, surrender control 

20 of their electricity and energy supplies and 

21 infrastructure, and forfeit their state's full 

22 potential for economic growth. Thank you.

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1 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Do you 

2 have a written copy of your statement?

3 MR. QUINN: I do.

4 MR. POWERS: Okay. Great. Next speaker 

5 is Margie Alt. And on deck are Paul Cicio, if 

6 I'm saying that right. And Ann Burchard. 

7 MS. ALT: Great. Thank you. Good 

8 morning. I'm glad to be here and appreciate your 

9 having this session as well as the sessions 

10 around the country.

11 I'm the Executive Director of Environment 

12 America. We're a federation of 29 state-level 

13 advocacy groups with over 1.1 million members and 

14 supporters all across the country. 

15 Margie Alt, A-L-T. 

16 We have been talking to folks about this 

17 issue and doing the research and really trying to 

18 understand the impacts of climate change on our 

19 families and on the planet. And toward that end 

20 have been distributing over a million pieces of 

21 literature to folks across the country, helping 

22 to connect the dots between extreme weather and 

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1 carbon pollution, and the rule that EPA is 

2 putting out. So I sit here today in strong 

3 support of the Clean Power Plan.

4 Recently climate change has become 

5 personal for me. Just a couple of weeks ago I 

6 got back from a trip I took to Alaska. And what 

7 seemed to me like a romantic rain storm dropping 

8 down on our cabin turned into a 20 or 30 year 

9 flood that hadn't been seen in years past. The 

10 little creek flooded. The road was impassable 

11 because of a mud slide and we ended up having to 

12 be evacuated by the National Park Service, which 

13 did a great job by the way. So good work to your 

14 colleagues at DOI.

15 And it's not just that Denali National 

16 Park is being flooded. The glaciers in Glacier 

17 Bay National Park are now 95 percent in 

18 recession, and it's not just in Alaska, it's here 

19 in the lower 48 as well, whether it's the wild 

20 fires happening right now as we speak in 

21 Washington and Oregon, or just two years ago on 

22 the East Coast, the impacts of Hurricane Sandy, 

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1 which also affected me and my family. I grew up 

2 in Long Beach, New York, which is on the south 

3 shore of Long Island. The boardwalk we used to 

4 go to, totally devastated by the hurricane, has 

5 since been rebuilt. 

6 And my brother, who still lives just a 

7 few miles away, has just finished redoing his 

8 house from the destruction of the storm, and just 

9 buying their second car, also ruined in Hurricane 

10 Sandy. 

11 So from my perspective and that of our 

12 members, global warming is no longer a problem of 

13 the distant future or of people far away. It's 

14 here, it's now, it's happening to me. It's 

15 happening to all Americans. 

16 And the headlines every day remind us 

17 that we need to do something and do it now. 

18 Thus, I'm so appreciative of the work that the 

19 EPA is doing to cap carbon pollution from power 

20 plants.

21 It's no secret that power plants are the 

22 single largest source of global warming 

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1 pollution, responsible for more than 40 percent 

2 of the nation's production of carbon pollution. 

3 Our research shows that the dirtiest 50 plants in 

4 the country actually emit more carbon than all 

5 but six countries in the world. 

6 States around the country are already 

7 moving to take action to clean up or shut down 

8 the dirtiest plants. We were excited to support 

9 and work to implement California's Global Warming 

10 Solutions Act, which is projected to save 780 

11 lives by 2020. 

12 And since the regional greenhouse gas 

13 initiative went into effect, global warming 

14 pollution from power plants on the East Coast has 

15 fallen by 30 percent, and new tighter limits have 

16 us on track to cut carbon pollution even further 

17 in the region.

18 At the same time the program has added $2 

19 billion to the regional economy and locked in 

20 more than $1 billion in savings on energy bills 

21 for East Coast consumers. 

22 So it's time to stop listening to the 

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1 naysayers, and instead to start learning lessons 

2 from state success stories. Sates have reduced 

3 global warming pollution and the lights have 

4 stayed on. And more and more of those lights are 

5 powered by clean, renewable energy. 

6 As we generate more power each watt of 

7 energy is going farther, states are also becoming 

8 more and more efficient. We have renewable 

9 standards. We have a million solar roofs coming 

10 on line in California, strong solar policies in 

11 Minnesota and Massachusetts and more. And that's 

12 why Environment America strongly supports Clean 

13 Power Plan as the single largest step the U.S. 

14 has taken to tackle global warming. But it is 

15 only a step. We have come a long way but our

16 work is far from done if we're to stave off the 

17 worst impacts of global warming. To lead the 

18 world America needs to cut global warming 

19 pollution 80 percent by 2050, at minimum meeting 

20 the President's commitment of 17 percent 

21 reductions by 2020.

22 The good news is we're on track. We can 

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1 make a difference. We have made a difference. 

2 And I hope we will continue to make a difference 

3 through the Clean Power Plan. We've got a lot of 

4 work yet to do, but we've seen the vision and 

5 leadership from the states and the Obama 

6 Administration, combined with strong public 

7 support. We believe we'll get there. Thank you 

8 so much.

9 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. The 

10 next panelists are Paul Cicio, if I'm saying that 

11 -- is that right?

12 MR. CICIO: That's right. 

13 MR. POWERS: Okay. Good. And Ann 

14 Burchard.

15 This is a bit of a challenge, you guys, 

16 with a single mic. So if you kind of pull it a 

17 little closer to you everybody will be able to 

18 hear you better.

19 MR. CICIO: Good morning. My name is 

20 Paul Cicio, C-I-C-I-O, and I am the President of 

21 the Industrial Energy Consumers of America, a 

22 trade association with annual sales -- the 

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1 companies have $1 trillion in annual sales and 

2 more than 1.4 million employees.

3 The companies that I represent are energy 

4 intensive, trade exposed. They compete with 

5 companies from around the world whose 

6 competitiveness is largely dependent upon the 

7 price of natural gas and electricity. 

8 For these companies relatively small 

9 increases in the cost of energy can have 

10 relatively significant impacts on their 

11 competitiveness, their ability to create jobs and 

12 exports. 

13 Energy intensive industries consume over 

14 81 percent of the energy of the entire 

15 manufacturing sector. Examples include 

16 chemicals, plastics, nitrogen fertilizer, iron, 

17 steel, aluminum, glass products, paper, food 

18 processing, and cement. These products are the 

19 raw materials necessary to produce everything in 

20 the U.S. that all consumers use in daily life.

21 IECA companies support responsible cost 

22 effective action to address climate change. In 

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1 fact the industrial sector is the only sector of 

2 the entire U.S. economy whose emissions are less 

3 than they were in 1973.

4 However, unilateral climate action by the 

5 U.S. that results in increased energy costs can 

6 disadvantage our manufacturers, damage 

7 competitiveness, and result in job losses. The 

8 U.S. cannot go it alone, and expect that our 

9 actions will have meaningful climate impact in a 

10 world economy that is using more coal and more 

11 fossil fuels every day. 

12 For example, the EPA says that the 

13 proposed rule would reduce 730 million metric 

14 tons of carbon by 2030. China increased its 

15 emissions nearly that amount in one year, from 

16 2010 to 2011, China's Co2 emissions rose by 705 

17 million tons. We are competing with those 

18 Chinese companies.

19 The key message that we want to deliver 

20 is that we are very worried that the rule would 

21 substantially increase the electricity and 

22 natural gas costs, and create liability problems, 

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1 putting the manufacture sector at risk, good 

2 paying jobs with relatively small global climate 

3 impact. 

4 The rule would substantially reduce the 

5 use of coal fired generation. Coal fired 

6 generation is low cost, and it's reliable. 

7 Importantly coal competes with gas, natural gas, 

8 on a BTU basis that helps keep electricity costs 

9 low. 

10 The rule would increase dependency on 

11 natural gas for power generation. Natural gas is 

12 delivered in real time, not stockpiled like coal. 

13 And the winter of 2014 demonstrated how 

14 overreliance on natural gas generation led to 

15 reliability issues on gas transportation and 

16 electricity deliverability, and with spiking 

17 prices for both natural gas and electricity.

18 The rule would also increase reliance on 

19 renewable energy. Renewable energy can be very 

20 expensive and is also unreliable. Our 

21 manufacturing facilities run 24 hours a day, 

22 seven days a week. Reliability is critical. 

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1 Grid reliability problems lead to 

2 electricity curtailments of manufacturing 

3 facilities. These curtailments can cost small 

4 manufacturers tens of thousands of dollars a day 

5 and large manufacturing companies tens of 

6 millions of dollars a day. 

7 This is especially troublesome during 

8 peak demand periods. Electrical outage can 

9 damage, if not destroy the equipment that we use 

10 to manufacturers and the products itself. And 

11 most importantly reliability is an important 

12 safety issue for our employees.

13 Importantly all regulatory and energy 

14 costs of this rule will be passed on to us, the 

15 consumer. We are the ones that are going to pay 

16 for this rule. 

17 A great concern is that the greenhouse 

18 gas rule is only one of several recent EPA rules 

19 that impose costs, and these costs are additive

20 and are increasing our electricity prices.

21 According to the EPA the greenhouse gas 

22 rule will increase industrial electricity prices 

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1 by $2.2 billion each year, a total of $37 billion 

2 by 2030. When added to the AEO 2014 electricity 

3 forecast for industrial prices, prices will rise 

4 154 percent by 2030. 

5 This means that from 2013 to 2030 a 17 

6 year period, we can expect an average increase in 

7 electricity prices of 9.1 percent per year. And 

8 that's in contrast to the last 13 year period 

9 where we only saw prices increase 2.8 percent per 

10 year.

11 On natural gas the EPA estimate is that 

12 prices will increase up to 12 percent. And when 

13 added to the EIA forecast the price of natural 

14 gas is forecasted to rise 164 percent by 2030. 

15 Significant. Very signature.

16 As electricity and natural gas prices 

17 rise, manufacturers lose their ability to compete 

18 and will be forced to move off shore. And ladies 

19 and gentlemen, that is what happened from 2000 to 

20 2008, because of high natural gas prices. We 

21 shut down over 40,000 manufacturing facilities, 

22 we lost 3 million manufacturing jobs, and when 

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1 this happens both good paying jobs and the 

2 greenhouse gas emissions move off shore. And 

3 this is referred to as carbon leakage.

4 Forcing energy intensive manufacturing 

5 companies off shore because of higher energy 

6 costs accomplishes nothing environmentally, and 

7 damages the domestic economy and employment. For 

8 this reason energy intensive industries, at 

9 minimum, would need carbon allowances and border 

10 adjustments to prevent greenhouse gas leakage. 

11 We urge the EPA to acknowledge these realities, 

12 just as the Waxman Markey Bill did, just as the 

13 EU ETS does, and the State of California.

14 It is for this reason that we request 

15 that the EPA perform a carbon leakage analysis to 

16 assess the carbon impacts on our industries. Any 

17 carbon leakage costs could be subtracted from the 

18 EPA benefit calculations.

19 Because the proposed rule regulates 

20 greenhouse gas emissions outside the fence, it 

21 sets an impossible precedent for future

22 regulation of greenhouse gases for the 

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1 manufacturing sector. The rule's precedent would 

2 require industrials to reduce greenhouse gas 

3 amounts that are above what we could reduce 

4 through manufacturing technology, equipment, and 

5 practices, and be required to accept 

6 responsibility to achieve higher greenhouse gas 

7 reductions by reducing emissions outside our 

8 fence line.

9 Our customers are all over the world, and 

10 not just in the U.S., and this regulation imposes 

11 costs that our global competitors would not have.

12 Thank you for your consideration.

13 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much for your 

14 testimony. Our next speaker is --

15 MS. BURCHARD: Good morning.

16 MR. POWERS: -- Ann. Yes. And could I -

17 - excuse me one -- on deck is Reverend Coates and 

18 also Sarah Bucci. 

19 MS. BURCHARD: Good morning. My name is 

20 Ann Burchard, B as in Bravo, U-R-C-H-A-R, D as in 

21 delta. I am a Sierra Club member and concerned 

22 citizen from Annapolis, Maryland.

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1 I thank you for the opportunity to speak 

2 in favor of the Clean Power Plan and the Carbon 

3 Rule. 

4 My city, Annapolis, has been around for 

5 over 300 years. But like most coastal cities is 

6 in danger from rising sea levels due to climate 

7 change. 

8 Just yesterday, July 28th -- is that 

9 feedback? 

10 (High pitched squeal.)

11 MS. BURCHARD: We okay?

12 MR. POWERS: yes.

13 MS. BURCHARD: Okay. Is it my voice?

14 MR. POWERS: No, I don't think so. 

15 MS. BURCHARD: Okay. It's not me. Shall 

16 I continue? Okay.

17 Just yesterday, July 28th, NOAA posted on 

18 its website a summary of its technical report 

19 entitled, Sea Level Rise and Nuisance Flood 

20 Frequency Around the United States.

21 By the way, nuisance flooding often 

22 results in flooded basements, road closures, and 

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1 compromised infrastructure. 

2 There in the report at the top of the 

3 list was Annapolis, Maryland, with an increase in 

4 flood days of 925 percent over a 50 year period. 

5 From 1957 to 1963 the average number of 

6 flood days in a year was 3.8. From 2007 to 2013 

7 the number of flood days was 39.3. That is 

8 approximately one out of nine days. In D.C. the 

9 number of flood days increased from 6.3 to 29.7 

10 days a year, or 373 percent.

11 Coastal flood warning is becoming a too 

12 frequent part of our weather forecast. We no 

13 longer need storms or hurricanes to produce 

14 flooding. It is becoming an everyday occurrence.

15 By spending millions of dollars we can 

16 attempt to protect our most valuable real estate 

17 through engineering, but water will seek its 

18 level and land will be lost. Many farmers, farms 

19 and towns on our beloved eastern shore of the 

20 Chesapeake Bay would be under water.

21 The cost of sea level rise mitigation and 

22 the value of lost inundated proposed should be 

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1 considered when calculating the cost benefit 

2 ratio of curbing our carbon emissions. Who is 

3 going to pay for the farms lost, for the houses

4 that are now under water?

5 I am grateful that the EPA is taking 

6 action to reduce carbon output through its Clean 

7 Power Plan. It is reasonable and achievable. 

8 Many states are almost there. I ask that the EPA 

9 strengthen the proposed standards and emphasize 

10 energy efficiency and use of renewable sources. 

11 Thank you.

12 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. 

13 Reverend Coates, and Sarah Bucci. 

14 Good morning.

15 REVEREND COATES: Good morning, and thank 

16 you for the opportunity to share. My name is 

17 Delman Coates and I senior pastor of Mount Ennon 

18 Baptist Church in Clinton Maryland.

19 Because I am a pastor some might assume 

20 that I have nothing to add to the conversation 

21 about climate change and environmental justice. 

22 However, I have made it a point to stress to my 

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1 congregants my belief that people of faith have a 

2 moral obligation to be good stewards of the 

3 Earth, to care for the environment, and to 

4 protect future generations by addressing the 

5 effects of climate change and carbon pollution.

6 The issue of environmental justice is 

7 particularly important to me because as pastor of 

8 a predominantly African/American congregation I 

9 am sensitive to the fact that people of color and 

10 low income communities suffer disproportionately 

11 from environmentally related health issues, 

12 including asthma, bronchitis, and other 

13 respiratory ailments.

14 Countless university studies conclude 

15 that climate change and carbon pollution severely 

16 undermine the health of minority communities. 

17 Issues of class compound these disparities in 

18 health as lower income families who are already 

19 predisposed to higher health risks are also often 

20 living the closest to the sources of carbon 

21 pollution which is threatening the health of 

22 citizens all across the country.

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1 This is not some problem out there for 

2 another generation. It affects us right here. 

3 Power plants and other major industrial 

4 facilities in the area emitted more than 450,000 

5 metric tons of carbon pollution in 2011. That's 

6 equal to the yearly pollution from more than 

7 95,000 cars. 

8 These industrial facilities are harming 

9 our economy and our health. There are members of 

10 my congregation who suffer from environmentally 

11 induced illnesses. They are elderly parishioners 

12 burdened by declining health, battling chronic 

13 illnesses such as lung disease, cardiovascular 

14 disease, and high blood pressure, which are only 

15 made worse by carbon pollution and climate 

16 change. They are widows and widowers who have 

17 lost loved ones due to industrially produced 

18 respiratory diseases. 

19 Sadly, many of these individuals are also 

20 young people, children whose quality of life has 

21 been diminished by industrially produced air 

22 pollutants. 

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1 In scripture we are given a clear mandate 

2 to care for widows, orphans, the elderly, and 

3 those in distressed. In the gospels, Jesus bids 

4 his followers to give attention to the needs of 

5 the poor. Especially children. 

6 For this reason I have pledged my support 

7 to the Clean Power Plan because it attempts to 

8 correct for the abuses of former generations so 

9 that people, but especially our children, can 

10 live and grow in a cleaner, safer, and healthier 

11 world than the one we are on track to leave them. 

12 We need the Clean Power Plan. It is sensible 

13 federal environmental policy that provides states 

14 the flexibility they need to develop customized 

15 plans that will keep our energy affordable and 

16 reliable while ensuring our children have clean 

17 air to breathe. Thank you.

18 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Sarah.

19 MS. BUCCI: Great. My name is Sarah 

20 Bucci, so you had the pronunciation right. And 

21 that's B-U-C-C-I. 

22 And I am the Campaign Director with 

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1 Environment Virginia, and I'm here today from 

2 Richmond, Virginia speaking on behalf of myself 

3 and the 25,000 members and supporters across the 

4 Commonwealth that we represent. 

5 In Virginia the consequences of global 

6 warming are clear and present. The recent 

7 National Climate Assessment pointed to the 

8 impacts that we are already feeling from more 

9 extreme and severe storms, agricultural troubles, 

10 to rising seas and storm surges that put our 

11 coastal communities at risk.

12 Hampton Roads is the second most 

13 vulnerable region to sea level rise in the entire 

14 country. And that's something that city and 

15 regional planners in the area, the U.S. military 

16 and local residents can tell you. 

17 And increased temperatures also mean more 

18 unhealthy air days that risk more asthma attacks 

19 and respiratory disease. And as a resident of 

20 Richmond and an area that has been named the 

21 Asthma Capitol of the Country for many years, 

22 that's very important to me.

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1 Scientists are clear that unless we act 

2 now to reduce the pollution that's fueling global 

3 warming, most importantly carbon dioxide, things 

4 will only get worse for our children, and you 

5 won't be able to turn back. We support the Clean 

6 Power Plan.

7 We believe the Clean Power Plan is an 

8 important step and support the finalization of 

9 the strongest possible plan to cut carbon 

10 pollution.

11 Power plants are the largest single 

12 source of U.S. carbon pollution, and while we 

13 must move quickly to limit carbon from all 

14 sectors and sources, power plants are our best 

15 opportunity in the near term to make dramatic 

16 reductions in carbon.

17 Virginia's power plants contribute to 

18 34.4 percent of our state's carbon pollution, and 

19 this plan would clean up our power plants by 31 

20 percent.

21 Environment Virginia applauds the EPA for 

22 resounding to the urgent need to protect public 

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1 health and our children's future by reigning in 

2 unlimited carbon pollution. And we're not alone. 

3 Over 150,000 public comments have been submitted 

4 by Virginians in support of limiting carbon 

5 pollution to date. And over 60 local and state 

6 elected officials, over 100 small business owners 

7 have also endorsed the President's Climate Action 

8 Plan and the EPA's proposal.

9 Public opinion polling shows that a 

10 majority of Virginians support the EPA taking 

11 action on climate and to limit carbon pollution 

12 from power plants. So the people are behind you.

13 And given the scope of the problem and 

14 the urgent need to act, we can do even better by 

15 harnessing the power of clean energy.

16 Virginia and the utilities operating in 

17 our state are far behind our neighboring states 

18 in developing a clean energy industry. Our 

19 neighbors to the south, North Carolina, has 

20 installed 335 megawatts of solar power, while 

21 Virginia has only about 15 to 18 megawatts of 

22 solar that have been installed by homeowners and 

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1 colleges, the military, and others.

2 But we have huge potential to meet and 

3 exceed the goals laid out for Virginia in the 

4 proposed Clean Power Plan through energy 

5 efficiency and the deployment of clean energy 

6 resources like solar power and wind power.

7 If our state's offshore wind energy area 

8 were to be fully developed we could power over 

9 700,000 homes just from the wind blowing off the 

10 coast of Virginia Beach. 

11 So we can build a future where eventually 

12 all our energy comes from the wind that blows off 

13 our coast, from the sun that shines on our roof 

14 tops every single day, and making our homes and 

15 buildings so efficient that we, with a solar 

16 panel on top can power the entire building and 

17 have more energy produced than we actually need 

18 to use. 

19 That's a future that Virginians deserve, 

20 that Americans deserve, and that is a future that 

21 the Clean Power Plan helps us make a step toward.

22 Thank you very much for allowing us here 

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1 to speak today. 

2 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much for your 

3 testimony.

4 The next speakers are Congresswoman 

5 Capito and William Becker. And then upon deck 

6 behind them are Fred Palmer and Ivy Main.

7 MS. CAPITO: Good morning. Thank you. I 

8 am Shelley Moore-Capito, I represent the State of 

9 West Virginia in the House of Representatives. 

10 Thanks for having me here today and appreciate 

11 your good hard work. I know you're going to have 

12 a long couple days.

13 I'm here to express my state's strong 

14 opposition to the proposed greenhouse gas rule 

15 for existing power plants. With this 

16 unprecedented rule the EPA has gone far beyond 

17 requiring existing coal plants operate as 

18 efficiently as possible. Instead the very 

19 framework for this rule is built around shifting 

20 the country away from coal. 

21 The Federal Government has no business 

22 picking winners and losers in the energy economy, 

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1 but that's exactly what this EPA rule does. 

2 I'd like to share with you what your rule 

3 would do to my state. If you had come to West 

4 Virginia you would have seen and heard this for 

5 yourself. The EPA has held 11 public listening 

6 sessions on this rule, but not one of those 

7 listening sessions has been in the 10 states that 

8 most heavily rely on coal for electrical 

9 generation, West Virginia being one of them.

10 If you had come to West Virginia you 

11 would have heard from coal mining companies and 

12 coal miners who depend on this work to feed their 

13 families. Like Roger Horton of Logan County, a 

14 retired coal miner, UMWA member. When he 

15 testified before the House Energy and Commerce 

16 Committee he said EPA's policies are condemning 

17 our mining families to lives of poverty and 

18 despair. 

19 But if you had heard from people who 

20 don't work in the mines but directly rely on the 

21 industry and its electricity to keep their 

22 companies afloat you might have heard from 

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1 Christian March of Quality Machine, a fabrication 

2 and machine manufacturer in Bridgeport, West 

3 Virginia. His business used to do a lot of work 

4 in the coal mining business, but they've seen a 

5 significant drop.

6 You might have heard from businesses like 

7 Felman Production in Letart, and Constellium 

8 World Products in Ravens Wood, both companies 

9 that employ hundreds of West Virginia workers in 

10 an energy intensive manufacturing scenario. 

11 But by not coming to West Virginia, to 

12 Kentucky, to the coal producing and coal 

13 consuming states you send a message to that part 

14 of the country, our part of the country, that our 

15 views and our experiences just don't matter. To 

16 have the Federal Government refuse to even listen 

17 to this segment of American people is frustrating 

18 and demoralizing for us.

19 My state of West Virginia has already

20 lost 5,000 coal mining jobs between 2012, 2014. 

21 Many more jobs are at risk because of this Agency 

22 and the regulatory efforts that are going far 

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1 beyond what Congress intended. 

2 My state of West Virginia relies 95 

3 percent of its electricities generated by coal. 

4 And we will be one of the biggest losers under 

5 this proposed rule. 

6 A recent report from the Institute of 

7 Energy Resource found that our electricity prices 

8 in West Virginia could increase by more than 50 

9 percent by 2020. This rule would cause even more 

10 coal capacity to be taken off line, which will 

11 increase energy costs for consumers across the 

12 country. We saw this with the European Union's 

13 carbon regulations, which increased residential 

14 electricity prices by 55 percent between 2005 and 

15 2013. 

16 The proposed rule would be bad for the 

17 American economy. It will be catastrophic for 

18 working families in West Virginia. U.S. 

19 households pay half as much for electricity than 

20 households in the European Union and a third as 

21 much of those in Germany. 

22 Because of the energy intensive nature of 

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1 manufacturing, low cost American jobs help -- low 

2 cost American energy help keep jobs in the U.S.; 

3 jobs our economy desperately needs.

4 Coal miners and power plant workers 

5 aren't the only workers who lose under this 

6 proposed rule. Forfeiting our energy advantage 

7 will send more American manufacturing jobs 

8 overseas and hurt our economy.

9 As our governor, the Governor of West 

10 Virginia has said, not one single coal plant --

11 not one single coal plant in West Virginia meets 

12 the average standard of the 1620 pounds of carbon 

13 dioxide per megawatt hour that would be imposed 

14 on the state.

15 While I recognize that that means that 

16 not every coal plant would close, but it would 

17 definitely mean the closure of a number of coal 

18 units would be mandatory. 

19 Our economy benefits from a diverse 

20 energy mix and an all of the above energy 

21 strategy. During January and -- I think it's 

22 important to note, in January and February of 

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1 this year, 92 percent of the increased demand for 

2 energy nationally was met by coal. American 

3 Electric Power, which operates in West Virginia 

4 and across the Midwest was operating at 89 

5 percent of the coal capacity that next year will 

6 be shut down due to the other EPA regulations.

7 In the House of Representatives I have 

8 worked tirelessly to try to help the people of 

9 West Virginia and to help the EPA and this 

10 Administration understand what these regulations

11 do to our state. I've continued to invite the 

12 EPA to come to West Virginia and hear all sides 

13 of the issues. 

14 I've offered bipartisan resolutions, 

15 calling for the EPA to hold sessions in the coal 

16 reliance states. I'm here today for the five 

17 minutes to tell you the consequences of this 

18 agency's decision on the people that I represent.

19 The rule threatens West Virginia's 

20 economic survival. I will continue to lead 

21 efforts in congress to help stop this rule and 

22 also I promise you that my state and its people 

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1 will also fight this rule every day.

2 Thank you all so much for having me.

3 MR. POWERS: Thank you. I would note, I 

4 know Pennsylvania is not West Virginia, but we do 

5 have a session in Pittsburg, two days of sessions 

6 later this week.

7 Bill Becker.

8 MR. BECKER: Good morning. My name is 

9 Bill Becker. I am Executive Director of the 

10 National Association of Clean Air Agencies, or 

11 NACAA. Our members include 42 state and 116 

12 local air pollution control agencies across the 

13 country that partner with EPA to implement and 

14 enforce the Clean Air Act.

15 Section 111D of the Clean Air Act bests 

16 our member agencies with the ultimate 

17 responsibility, to draft, sign, and submit the 

18 state plans under EPA's Clean Power Plan proposed 

19 rule. Therefore I'm pleased to have the 

20 opportunity to testify this morning and to 

21 provide some initial reactions to EPA's proposal.

22 The views expressed in this statement do 

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1 not reflect the views of all NACAA member 

2 agencies. 

3 More than one year ago EPA began its 

4 efforts to develop the rule and conducted some 

5 early outreach to NACAA and other stakeholders. 

6 In response our association developed a set of 

7 Section 111D principles and submitted them to the 

8 Agency in August of 2013. And I have a copy of 

9 my principles attached to our testimony.

10 NACAA recognizes the extensive level of 

11 EPA staff effort that went into developing the 

12 proposed Clean Power Plan. Those its proposal 

13 does not offer everything for everyone, we 

14 appreciate that EPA has included much of what 

15 NACAA recommended in its Section 111D principles. 

16 And I will give you some general examples by 

17 highlighting features of the proposal that are 

18 consistent with our principles. 

19 In terms of process EPA deserves credit 

20 for its outreach effort, which was truly 

21 unprecedented in duration and scope. The Agency 

22 sought input from many groups, especially state 

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1 and local air pollution control agencies. It was 

2 inclusive of key interests and expertise from 

3 other stakeholders such as state energy officials 

4 and utility commissioners, and those 

5 conversations remain ongoing.

6 Further, EPA not only engaged in 

7 discussion, it listened very carefully to what 

8 was said. In our principles NACAA asked for 

9 emission limits that reflect state circumstances; 

10 different state circumstances. EPA's proposal 

11 includes state specific goals based on state and 

12 regional factors. 

13 We asked for flexibility. The proposal 

14 addresses flexibility in several ways. It 

15 incorporates four building blocks for setting the 

16 best systems of emission reduction, including 

17 renewable energy and energy efficiency. It 

18 includes compliance flexibility beyond the four 

19 building blocks to credit strategies like fuel 

20 switching and new natural gas combined cycle 

21 capacity. And the proposal gives states wide 

22 latitude to identify the overall compliance 

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1 strategies in response to their local 

2 circumstances.

3 We asked for more time for states to 

4 develop plans and for effected sources to meet 

5 their obligations. The proposal offers a one 

6 year extension for all states and an additional 

7 year for states that elect to develop a multi8 state approach. 

9 Affected power plants also have a decade 

10 to comply with the new standard. In sum, the 

11 proposed rule reflects many of the issues NACAA 

12 highlighted almost one year before the proposal 

13 was released. Undoubtedly the same state and 

14 local dialog that informed EPA's Clean Power Plan 

15 proposal must also inform its final rule. 

16 NACAA's member are still considering the 

17 proposal's numerous and complex facets, but much 

18 of their analysis so far has focused on the 

19 calculation of individual state goals. Some 

20 states have expressed concerns that due to the 

21 stringency of the proposed targets their 

22 compliance flexibility is significantly limited. 

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1 Further, while we appreciate the extra 

2 time EPA is providing to develop state plans, 

3 we're hearing from some states that they may 

4 still need additional time given their state's 

5 legislatures, schedules, and rulemaking 

6 timeframes.

7 And finally many states are concerned 

8 that the proposal does not adequately reward 

9 states that took early action. We strongly 

10 encourage EPA to work with NACAA and the 

11 individual states to address each of these issues 

12 in the final rule.

13 Though not strictly part of the proposal, 

14 the signature resources that state and local 

15 agencies will need to make the Clean Power Plan a 

16 success must be addressed. The planning and 

17 analysis needed to meet EPA's targets are 

18 substantial and require additional support. 

19 The President recognized this challenge 

20 in his proposed fiscal 2015 budget when he asked 

21 for a nearly $20 million increase to support 

22 Section 111D State Plan Development.

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1 NACAA reiterates its strong support for 

2 the additional funding, but cautions against its 

3 funding coming at the expense of funding for 

4 state and local air agencies' core programs. 

5 Further, we urge EPA to build on its 

6 strong foundation of preproposal dialog to 

7 develop resources to facilitate states' abilities 

8 to conduct their Section 111D planning.

9 So in conclusion, as we move further into 

10 the comment period, we'll continue to examine the 

11 proposed rule and suggest changes to improve it. 

12 Once again, thank you for the opportunity 

13 to testify.

14 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much for 

15 your testimony.

16 The next speakers are Fred Palmer and Ivy 

17 Main, and on deck after them are Congresswoman 

18 Sanchez and Collin O'Mara.

19 MR. PALMER: Greetings.

20 MR. POWERS: Good morning.

21 MR. PALMER: Good morning. My name is 

22 Fred Palmer, P-A-L-M-E-R. I am Senior Vice 

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1 President for Government Relations at Peabody 

2 Energy.

3 Using coal for electricity enables more 

4 people to live longer and live better, and it 

5 drives the lowest U.S. electricity costs for any 

6 major fuel. 

7 Peabody profoundly disagrees with EPA's 

8 approach on carbon under the Clean Air Act. We 

9 are opposed to this proposal that would punish 

10 electricity consumers, have no material benefit

11 under climate theory, and is indeed outside the 

12 bounds of the law in the Clean Air Act. 

13 This proposal --

14 MR. POWERS: Excuse me. Could you get 

15 just a bit closer to the mic? Yeah. Thank you.

16 MR. PALMER: Yeah. I'm sorry. Peabody 

17 has profound disagreement with EPA's approach on 

18 carbon under the Clean Air Act. We are opposed 

19 to this proposal as it punishes electricity 

20 consumers, has no material benefit under climate 

21 theory, and is outside the bounds of the Clean 

22 Air Act itself. This proposal must be withdrawn.

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1 Access to clean affordable energy is 

2 essential at a time when a record 115 million 

3 Americans qualify for energy assistance and 48 

4 million Americans live in poverty. 

5 Last week the Washington Post put a face 

6 on this very real daily struggle. It brought to 

7 light the story of a single mother of five 

8 children in Pueblo, Colorado struggling to pay 

9 their power bills. "Why do you need to turn the 

10 lights off," Sharon Garcia asks her son. 

11 "Because otherwise there's no money," he replies. 

12 "And when there's no money you can't feed us."

13 No matter how deep she rations Sharon 

14 can't get ahead of rising costs, a major cause of 

15 the state's increase in electricity costs is 

16 attributable to the shutdown of coal plants and 

17 an aggressive transition to renewables.

18 Sharon's story is commonplace in 

19 California, a state the EPA lauds as its energy 

20 model. California has exacerbated energy 

21 inequality and it is widespread in the areas of 

22 the state away from the coast and it has turned 

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1 away business based on high renewable mandates 

2 and energy taxes. Efficiency in California, 

3 which is lauded by many, has been achieved by 

4 demand destruction with large manufacturing 

5 fleeing the state.

6 California prices are 40 percent higher 

7 than the U.S. average and 700,000 manufacturing 

8 jobs have been lost since 2000. And if 

9 California is the future, it does not work.

10 EPA's proposal is symbolic only, and 

11 would have no significant benefit under climate 

12 theory. An entire shutdown of America's coal 

13 fleet, which is not being proposed would result 

14 in 120th of one degree temperature change.

15 Widespread opposition to this proposal is 

16 evident and it is nationwide, as we can see by 

17 action in the House of Representatives, the 

18 People's House, and in the U.S. Senate and state 

19 legislative actions.

20 In mid July the House Appropriations 

21 Committee passed a spending bill prohibiting EPA 

22 from using funds for carbon standards. In March 

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1 the House passed Woodfield Mansion to repeal the 

2 proposed new source rule and stop 111D without 

3 congressional approval. Forty-one Republican

4 senators have asked EPA to withdraw the rule, 

5 seven Democratic senators have written the 

6 President complaining about the new source 

7 performance standards. 

8 Over 20 states passed legislation or 

9 resolution stating greenhouse gas emissions can 

10 only be regulated on a plant by plant basis 

11 inside the fence so to speak, not the system wide

12 state approach that EPA takes. 

13 Citizen and business groups are 

14 activating, led by the Partnership for a Better 

15 Energy Future, a business coalition representing 

16 80 percent of the U.S. economy coast to coast. 

17 Peabody proposes a better path that calls 

18 for investing in efficiency improvements, 

19 deploying advanced super critical coal plants and 

20 supporting greater research and development 

21 towards next generation technologies including 

22 carbon capture and storage.

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1 More and more nations are pushing back 

2 against flawed carbon policies and EPA needs to 

3 recognize this.

4 Australia's Prime Minister called the 

5 former Carbon Tax a useless destructive tax which 

6 damaged jobs, hurt family's cost of living, and 

7 didn't actually help the environment. And of 

8 course that carbon tax has been repealed.

9 Japan just stepped up support for coal 

10 fueled power plants both domestically and 

11 overseas in the international lending institution 

12 arena, saying it would rather break a promise 

13 than its economy.

14 Once these realities are understood by 

15 the American people, and they will be, EPA's 

16 actions will be rejected as policy prescriptions 

17 that are adverse to human health and welfare, the 

18 exact opposite of EPA's mandate under the Clean 

19 Air Act. Thank you.

20 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Ivy Main.

21 MS. MAIN: Thank you. My name is Ivy 

22 Main. I'm the Chair of the Virginia Chapter of 

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1 the Sierra Club, representing our more than 

2 15,000 members who live in the Commonwealths. I 

3 apologize just a little bit of brain whiplash 

4 here. But from our point of view the EPA's Clean 

5 Power Plan proposal is the most important action 

6 the U.S. has ever taken to address global 

7 warming. 

8 It has already changed the conversation 

9 in Virginia. Here, business as usual has always 

10 meant keeping energy cheap no matter what it 

11 costs us. That won't fly anymore. The new

12 reference point is carbon.

13 We can meet the carbon budget you've 

14 proposed for Virginia, and more. With offshore 

15 wind, land-based wind, solar energy and energy 

16 efficiency, we have the potential to go way 

17 beyond what is proposed. I hope we will do so 

18 because the baked in effects of global warming

19 are already serious and we need to do everything 

20 we can to avoid much worse.

21 As the recent Risky Business Report 

22 warns, extreme heat is going to have a serious 

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1 affect on our economy and our lives. 

2 Like the rest of the southeast Virginia 

3 already has hot, humid summers that make outdoor 

4 activity difficult during the worst summer heat 

5 waves. When you add to that an average 

6 temperature increase of a few degrees due to 

7 global warming we will have long stretches of 

8 time in June, July, August and September where 

9 people in the Southeast cannot be out of doors in 

10 the middle of the day. Not as in, it's too 

11 unpleasant to be outside, but as in, it's life12 threatening to work outside. 

13 The lucky ones are those with air 

14 conditioned homes and cars and offices. Even 

15 they will find it a drag not to be able to garden 

16 or go for a run or send the children outside to 

17 play. But there are a lot of people who have to 

18 be outside. Farm workers, road crews, 

19 construction workers, day laborers, landscape 

20 workers, roofers, sanitation workers, many 

21 others. These Virginians do jobs that are 

22 critical to our economy. Yet they are often at 

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1 the bottom of the wage scale and have little say 

2 over their working conditions. For these people 

3 today's business as usual cheap power at any cost 

4 approach is a threat to their livelihoods, their 

5 health, and conceivably their lives.

6 Extreme heat is also a threat to 

7 Virginians in a power outage. If the future of 

8 the Southeast is a place that is uninhabitable 

9 without air conditioning, what happens when the 

10 air conditioning goes out? Every summer storm 

11 becomes a potential health crisis. Especially 

12 for the elderly and the poor. People are going 

13 to die because we have delayed so long in 

14 addressing carbon. 

15 Virginia policy makers and local 

16 officials have to begin to prepare for these

17 baked in effects of our fossil fuel addiction. 

18 There has been a lot of foot dragging and a lot 

19 of just plain hoping that it won't happen. But 

20 this is our future and this is what we have to 

21 plan for.

22 The good news is that we can still limit 

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1 the extent of the crisis and the Clean Power Plan 

2 is a good place to start. Thank you.

3 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much, both of 

4 you. Next speakers are Congresswoman Sanchez and 

5 Collin O'Mara. And on deck behind them are Lena 

6 Moffitt and Georgia Murray. 

7 MS. SANCHEZ: Good morning. I'm 

8 Congresswoman Linda Sanchez and I proudly

9 represent California's 38th Congressional 

10 District.

11 I want to thank you for the opportunity 

12 to testify about the importance of the EPA's 

13 Clean Power Plan. I'm here to lend a voice to 

14 minority communities across our country whose 

15 health and livelihood are affected by poor 

16 environmental conditions. 

17 As a law maker, an environmentalist, and 

18 most importantly as a mother, I'm here to 

19 advocate on behalf of the full implementation of 

20 the Clean Power Plan. 

21 I understand the urgency associated with 

22 combating the sources of pollution that are 

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1 contributing to climate change and posing serious

2 health risks to our general population.

3 As a representative of a district with a 

4 large Latino and Asian/American population, my 

5 constituents stand to lose the most if we fail to 

6 implement the plan's carbon reduction guidelines. 

7 Thirty-one percent of Latinos live within 

8 30 miles of a power plant. Equally alarming is 

9 the fact that Latinos are 165 percent more likely 

10 to live in counties with unhealthy levels of 

11 particulate matter pollution. 

12 The consequences of these environmental 

13 conditions are evident in the high rates of 

14 asthma among the Latino community. Today, over 

15 3.6 million Latinos in the U.S. suffer from 

16 asthma, including one in 10 Latino children. 

17 As a mother, these numbers are 

18 unacceptable and they underscore the need for a 

19 common sense plan to reduce carbon pollution, 

20 especially from high producing sources such as 

21 power plants.

22 In the United States today power plants

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1 are the largest source of carbon dioxide 

2 emissions, and they produce one third of all 

3 domestic greenhouse emissions. Despite these 

4 staggering statistics carbon pollution from power 

5 plants is currently not regulated. Regulating 

6 their carbon output would help reduce pollutants 

7 that contribute to the soot and the smog that 

8 make people sick. 

9 I'm here to declare that we can no longer 

10 afford to wait to act on climate change. I want 

11 a safe and secure future for my son and for the 

12 constituents that I represent. And I think 

13 millions of parents across the country would 

14 agree with me.

15 As government officials we are tasked 

16 with promoting the wellbeing of our citizens and 

17 I know we can do more to address the health risks 

18 associated with carbon pollution.

19 The clean power plan is a serious step 

20 towards protecting Americans from the 

21 consequences of climate change. It clearly 

22 outlines the changes that must be made in order 

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1 to limit the health and economic costs associated 

2 with carbon pollution. If implemented the Clean 

3 Power Plan would help cut pollution by 30 percent 

4 from 2005 levels and result in $55 to $93 billion 

5 in health and climate benefits, because there are 

6 costs associated with doing nothing.

7 I know that this change is possible 

8 because my home state of California has already 

9 implemented many of the guidelines proposed by 

10 the EPA and the facts speak for themselves. 

11 California has the fourth lowest carbon emissions 

12 in the nation and our electricity bills are 25 

13 percent below average. 

14 Let me repeat that because I think 

15 there's been erroneous prior testimony. 

16 California's electricity bills are 25 percent 

17 below average. 

18 The benefits are significant but the 

19 costs of not acting are much greater. On behalf 

20 of our country, my constituents, and the 28 

21 million Hispanics living in areas with unhealthy 

22 levels of ozone I urge you to fully implement the 

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1 Clean Power Plan. And I thank you for allowing 

2 me to testify today.

3 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. 

4 Collin. Good morning.

5 MR. O'MARA: good morning. It is 

6 wonderful to be with all of you and thank you for 

7 the opportunity to testify today in support of 

8 the Clean Power Plan. It is an honor to be 

9 sitting here with Congresswoman Sanchez, who I'm 

10 a big fan of from a distance. And it's really an 

11 honor to be in the same room where Administrator 

12 McCarthy announced this plan just a few months 

13 ago.

14 As the CEO of the nation's -- the largest 

15 wildlife conservation organization, with 4 

16 million members and supporters of 48 state 

17 affiliate organizations. 

18 The National Wildlife Federation is here 

19 today because of our nation's treasured wildlife, 

20 outdoor heritage, and communities that are being 

21 affected by climate impacts right now.

22 I'm here to speak for wildlife, because 

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1 they can't speak for themselves. Ask any hunter 

2 or angler, any birder or gardener, ask any farmer 

3 or forester, ask any hiker or camper what they're 

4 seeing on the ground and they will tell you that 

5 things are changing. From wild fires in the 

6 west, droughts in the southeast, and in 

7 California, and floods in the Midwest, extreme 

8 storms along the Eastern Seaboard, rising seas 

9 along our coasts, the evidence of climate impacts 

10 are all around us and occurring right now.

11 The stories of destroyed habitat and 

12 destroyed communities from extreme storms in 

13 particular becoming all too familiar. Wildlife 

14 are struggling and as their breeding grounds 

15 vanish their ranges shift and their food sources 

16 run scarce, or their homes are overrun by 

17 invasive species. Too many wildlife species that 

18 we love are at risk of extinction.

19 Moose from Minnesota and Maine are seeing 

20 record drops in their population due to exploding 

21 tick populations. Trout and Salmon in the west 

22 are struggling as their rivers and streams run 

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1 warm. Shore birds migrating through my state of 

2 Delaware and along the Atlantic flyway are 

3 experiencing rapid lost of feeding, foraging, and 

4 roosting habitat due to coastal erosion and sea 

5 level rise. And the wetland breeding grounds of 

6 our nation's most treasured water fowl are drying 

7 up in the Northern Great Plains, effecting ducks 

8 that sportsman and birders alike love near and 

9 far.

10 We are not merely losing our outdoor 

11 heritage. Insufficient action also threatens our 

12 multi-billion dollar outdoor recreation and 

13 tourism economy. Sportsmen and other outdoors 

14 enthusiasts help conserve and protect our wild 

15 places while infusing billions of dollars into 

16 our local economies. 

17 While the National Wildlife Federation is 

18 working diligently with wildlife and land 

19 managers across the country to help make wildlife 

20 habitat and local communities more resilient, 

21 science tells us that we need to rapidly curb 

22 industrial pollution to avoid climate impacts 

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1 that many species will simply not be able to 

2 adapt to. We need to make sure as a nation we 

3 are doing everything that we can to reduce the 

4 pollution that is fueling climate change, and 

5 invest in a clean energy future that will protect 

6 wildlife, children, our air and our water and 

7 again helping our communities prosper.

8 For these reasons we are here today to 

9 applaud the long overdue step of reigning in 

10 carbon pollution from the nation's largest 

11 industrial source, existing power plants. 

12 Our state affiliates across the country 

13 are lining up in hearings across the country 

14 right now to talk about their diligent work on 

15 these issues locally and to support this effort 

16 at all the hearings across the country. 

17 The proposed standard is a strong start. 

18 It is a uniquely American solution in that it 

19 establishes clear common sense standards while 

20 providing states with the flexibility and tools 

21 to achieve the standards in a way that makes the 

22 most sense for them. 

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1 It builds effectively upon work occurring 

2 in states across the nation. It allows for 

3 regional collaboration which time and time again 

4 has proven the best way to address pollution 

5 challenges that transcend state boundaries, and 

6 it's very clear the EPA listened closely to the 

7 states and stakeholders in developing this plan. 

8 And we are grateful for the efforts of 

9 Administrator McCarthy, Janet McCabe, Joe 

10 Goffman, Tom and the entire Office of Air and 

11 Radiation putting this proposal together.

12 We do believe that the Clean Power Plan 

13 should be strengthened to increase deployment of 

14 energy efficiency measures and wildlife friendly 

15 clean energy sources. We know this can be done 

16 with far reaching benefits to wildlife that 

17 extend beyond the anticipated carbon reductions. 

18 This rule will also help reduce the pollution 

19 from other criteria pollutants that have made 

20 pristine lakes lifeless due to acid rain, made 

21 fish dangerous to eat because of mercury and led 

22 to smog -- led to the smog that makes air 

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1 unhealthy for all of us to breath, including 

2 wildlife. These co-benefits are real and have 

3 been extremely important to our environment.

4 In my previous role as Secretary of 

5 National Resources in Environmental control in 

6 Delaware I had the privilege of playing a leading 

7 role as Chair of the Regional Greenhouse Gas 

8 Initiative to create a regional program for 

9 reducing carbon emissions. This initiative 

10 crossed through 9 states underscores the 

11 potential for forward thinking, ambitious 

12 emission reduction programs to achieve meaningful 

13 results while reducing costs and creating jobs. 

14 RGGI demonstrates that it's possible when 

15 state coordinate regionally that we can reduce 

16 carbon pollution in ways that reduce energy 

17 bills, create tens of thousands of construction 

18 jobs, deliver billions of dollars in economic 

19 savings, and in value to the economy, while in 

20 our case reducing emissions by more than 40 

21 percent across the nine states. 

22 It demonstrates that ambitious targets 

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1 can be met and set. This isn't theory. I mean, 

2 this is actual tangible proof on the ground while 

3 also spurring great investments in our economy. 

4 EPA's draft Clean Power Plan has key 

5 elements that could yield the benefits that we 

6 observed throughout the implementation of RGGI. 

7 Our written comments will go into much more 

8 detail, but there are two areas I would like to 

9 highlight for areas for potential strengthening. 

10 The most effective way to reduce carbon 

11 pollution and energy bills simultaneously is 

12 through energy efficiency. In my role as Chair 

13 of RGGI I saw firsthand the massive potential to 

14 reduce emissions through energy efficiency, and 

15 the economic opportunities, particularly in our 

16 urban communities through investments in energy 

17 efficiency. 

18 The energy efficiency assumptions in the 

19 proposed rule could be strengthened and they 

20 should strive to replicate the proven successes 

21 of many of the aggressive state programs and 

22 policies already in place.

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1 Secondly EPA should adjust the renewable 

2 energy growth assumptions to more accurately 

3 reflect the potential in states and regions. As 

4 technology and deployment prices continue to 

5 plummet many states have already, or will soon 

6 meet the level of renewable energy generation 

7 that EPA assumed that wouldn't be met until 2020.

8 These state targets should be 

9 strengthened to reflect this. Technologies like 

10 distributed solar and even offshore wind are 

11 unrepresented in the current calculation, despite 

12 their particular -- their potential to help 

13 reduce costs, stabilize prices, and then add 

14 additional job creation in the states with those 

15 resources.

16 Through these two actions EPA's plan can 

17 achieve greater reductions and reduce overall 

18 energy bills. The Clean Power Plan represents 

19 real progress, not only for America's fish, 

20 wildlife, and birds, but for the millions of 

21 sportsmen, hunters, anglers, wildlife watchers, 

22 birders, nature loves across the country, and for 

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1 future generations who also will enjoy America's 

2 great natural treasures, including my two year 

3 old daughter, Riley.

4 On behalf of our 4 million members and 

5 our supporters, including the 80,000 members of 

6 the National Wildlife Federation who have already 

7 submitted comments to EPA on this specific rule, 

8 we applaud you for taking this important step and 

9 we look forward to working with all of you to 

10 achieve the new standards and protect wildlife 

11 across this nation. Thank you very much.

12 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

13 Next speakers are Lena, or Lena Moffitt and 

14 George Murray. And on deck behind them are 

15 Hannah Wiegard, if I'm pronouncing that right, 

16 and Jeff Feng.

17 MS. MOFFITT: Good morning. Try and keep 

18 us on time so we won't delay.

19 Thank you for this opportunity to comment 

20 this morning. My name is Lena Moffitt and I'm 

21 the manager for Federal Policy for the National 

22 Wildlife Federation. I'll try not to repeat too 

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1 much of what my boss just said.

2 The National Wildlife Federation is the 

3 country's oldest and largest wildlife 

4 conservation organization committed to 

5 safeguarding our wild outdoor heritage for future 

6 generations. 

7 NWF has affiliate organizations in almost 

8 every state across the country, committed to 

9 protecting wildlife and the ecosystems they 

10 depend on. To that end our affiliate 

11 organizations are present at all four Clean Power 

12 Plan hearings happening across the country this 

13 week, and are committed to seeing this rule over 

14 the finish line.

15 This includes our affiliates in places 

16 like Nebraska, Texas, Arkansas, Virginia, North 

17 Carolina, Maine, Montana and more. They've seen 

18 the devastating impacts that climate change is 

19 having on wildlife that they love and understand 

20 that we must take action today to avoid 

21 increasing extinctions of species that we care 

22 about.

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1 Our members and affiliate partners also 

2 understand that the clean power plan presents an 

3 unparalleled opportunity to truly foster the 

4 local renewable solutions to climate change that 

5 our country has been waiting for, for far too 

6 long.

7 By including renewable energy sources and 

8 energy efficiency and the best system of emission 

9 reductions your Agency has potentially unleashed 

10 -- potentially opened the floodgates of American 

11 ingenuity to tackle climate change head on; to 

12 build state-based partnerships that harness the 

13 pollution free resources of the sun and wind, to 

14 invest in our communities, to grow the 

15 manufacturing base for these industries, and to 

16 reinvigorate American leadership in the clean 

17 energy economy of tomorrow.

18 So we're here today to demonstrate our 

19 support and to ask you to lean in to this 

20 challenge. The standard released on June 2nd is 

21 a strong start, but it can and should be even 

22 stronger, given the magnitude of the problem that 

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1 we face, and the solutions that we know already

2 exist.

3 I'd like to share a few key technical 

4 recommendations that we'll expand upon in our 

5 comments. Overall the standard can and should be 

6 stronger. Analysis has indicated that reductions 

7 on the order of 35 to 40 percent below 2005 

8 levels by 2020 can be achieved at reasonable 

9 costs. 

10 Secondly, your agency has rightly 

11 recognize that energy efficiency is the most 

12 cost-effective and efficient way to reduce our 

13 emissions quickly. 

14 Many state programs have successfully 

15 demonstrated the potential for efficiency to 

16 quickly and affordably reduce emissions. 

17 However, cost-effective energy efficiency can be 

18 achieved even more quickly than assumed in 

19 setting the state standards. 

20 Third, wildlife friendly renewable energy 

21 has been growing at an astonishing rate. In 2012 

22 wind and solar power were two of the fastest 

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1 growing electricity generation technologies in 

2 the U.S. Cumulative installed wind energy 

3 capacity increased by near 20 percent, and 

4 cumulative solar photovoltaic capacity grew more 

5 than 83 percent from the previous year. 

6 Your agency rightly included these 

7 resources in setting the state standards, but the 

8 availability and quantity of renewable energy 

9 opportunities assumed, we believe was too low.

10 By setting assumptions about renewable 

11 energy potential too low, the standard currently 

12 leaves achievable reductions on the table. 

13 Fourth, we believe EPA should analyze 

14 resource availability and cost on a state and 

15 regional basis rather than limiting the 

16 assessment of potential development to current 

17 renewable portfolio standards in states and 

18 regions, and remove artificial growth constraints 

19 on renewable energy.

20 We hope you will consider the full 

21 potential of the wide variety of renewable 

22 resources, including offshore wind power and 

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1 distributed solar power that were not included in 

2 setting the states standards.

3 In establishing each state's target your 

4 agency must account for planned and anticipated 

5 fossil fuel plant retirements and the current 

6 rate of change from coal to lower emitting 

7 resources like natural gas.

8 EPA must ensure that state targets 

9 actually drive emission reductions that weren't 

10 going to occur anyway.

11 And finally, EPA must also address 

12 lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions from natural 

13 gas, particularly given the role of natural gas 

14 as a compliance option.

15 NWF is currently working with our 

16 affiliates across the country in many states like 

17 Pennsylvania and Colorado, to encourage EPA to 

18 move forward with parallel separate regulations 

19 in concert with the Clean Power Plan to ensure 

20 that unchecked methane pollution doesn't erode 

21 the climate benefits of a switch to natural gas.

22 Again, we look forward to working with 

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1 you to strengthen, finalize, and implement this 

2 important standard. And personally I just want 

3 to say thank you for taking this opportunity. 

4 Young people get this issue. We're here. We 

5 have your back, and we are looking forward to 

6 finishing the standard with you.

7 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

8 MR. MURRAY: Good morning. Appreciate 

9 the opportunity to come speak all the way from 

10 New Hampshire.

11 The Appalachian Mountain Club's mission 

12 is to promote the protection, enjoyment, and 

13 understanding of the mountain's force, and waters 

14 and trails of the Appalachian region. We have 

15 more than 100,000 members and supporters who 

16 largely reside in the Northeast and Mid Atlantic.

17 As an outdoor constituency we are 

18 concerned about the current day impacts and 

19 increasing threats of climate change. Our 

20 members value consistent and playable snow in 

21 winter for snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, as 

22 to the many small and big businesses that rely on 

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1 winter recreation.

2 We are concerned about the threats to 

3 healthy air and the degradation of air quality in 

4 a warmer world. And the increasing number of 

5 severe storms that wreak havoc on our landscape 

6 and infrastructure, and require significant trail 

7 maintenance for safe and enjoyable hiking.

8 We have evidence of change happening 

9 today just outside my office in Pinkham Notch, 

10 New Hampshire. And I brought a few graphics.

11 This shows the time trend of total snow 

12 fall from Pinkham Notch, New Hampshire, over time 

13 since the 30s. Sixty seven inches less snowfall 

14 in total on average. We're seeing snow leaving 

15 15 days earlier on average. We're seeing 

16 temperature trends similar to what's seen across 

17 the region and the globe, and we're also seeing 

18 that increase as you move through time in the 

19 rate of change. It's happening now.

20 We strongly support the EPA's authority 

21 to regulate greenhouse gases under the Clean Air 

22 Act, and believe that it is appropriate and 

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1 essential to regulate these air pollutants for 

2 existing power plants under Section 111D of the 

3 Act. 

4 We are encouraged by the overall emission 

5 reductions EPA has proposed of 30 percent by 

6 2030, from power plants which would be a 

7 significant step towards achieving an ultimate 

8 national target of 80 percent by 2050. 

9 The Clean Air Act requires that best 

10 systems of emission reductions is established in 

11 setting up the 111D standards. We believe that 

12 EPA has provided a flexible and effective, 

13 achievable, and already proven best system 

14 approach that considers costs and environmental 

15 targets. EPA has also appropriately called for 

16 states to submit enforceable SIPs or State 

17 Implementation Plans that will ensure state 

18 emission reduction targets are met.

19 Many Northeast states have found success 

20 in reducing carbon emissions with original 

21 greenhouse gas initiative and we applaud EPA's 

22 inclusion of this type of program as a compliance 

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1 option. 

2 The recently strengthened RGGI program 

3 cap has locked in significant reductions in 

4 greenhouse gas pollutions from the power sector. 

5 There are some minor adjustments that should be 

6 made with the RGGI program to ensure that EPA 

7 targets are met and we will detail those in 

8 written comments in the future.

9 But it is a proven and -- it is a proven 

10 success and we look forward to encouraging other 

11 states to join the RGGI program to reduce 

12 greenhouse gas pollution in order to meet the EPA 

13 requirements.

14 We believe a focus on energy efficiency 

15 and conservation should be the priority of any 

16 plan to reduce the impacts of climate change. We 

17 need to not only burn less fossil fuels but 

18 maintain a balanced approach to energy 

19 development that includes land protection and 

20 pristine and natural places that are set aside 

21 for public use.

22 To achieve this balance we need to reduce 

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1 the overall demand for energy. I did want to 

2 highlight some initial concerns with the proposed 

3 rule, targets, and assumptions around energy 

4 efficiency. EPA should base each state's 

5 renewable and efficiency targets on the policies 

6 already adopted in each state. EPA should not 

7 use formulas for state targets that assume less 

8 generation and energy efficiency savings in 2030 

9 that the state has already achieved today.

10 Further, we believe EPA should encourage 

11 a faster rate of energy efficiency and renewable 

12 energy expansion within states, and review the 

13 assumptions about the compliance cost of energy 

14 efficiency in the context of both rate-based and 

15 mass-based options.

16 Energy efficiency investments have been 

17 proven to be highly effective in lower cost of 

18 compliance within the RGGI program and must be a 

19 core component in our transition to a clean 

20 energy economy. 

21 Thank you for this opportunity to 

22 comment, the AMC looks forward to submitting more 

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1 substantive written comments before the public 

2 comment period closes in October. Thank you.

3 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

4 Next speakers are Hannah Wiegard and Jeff Feng. 

5 And after them are Governor Markell and Greg 

6 Dotson.

7 And while the next panelists are getting 

8 seated I'd just reiterate something I said 

9 earlier for those of you who may not have been 

10 here. We are taking written comment until 

11 October 16th and encourage people to elaborate on 

12 an oral statement, or if you prefer to submit a 

13 written statement instead of oral, every written 

14 statement gets carefully read. 

15 Hannah.

16 MS. WIEGARD: Thank you. Please excuse 

17 if we take a couple snapshots up here. It's just 

18 we're so proud to be in this room.

19 My name is Hannah Weigard. I live in 

20 Charlottesville, Virginia. Today I'm speaking, 

21 representing Appalachian Voices, a regional 

22 environmental nonprofit working shoulder to 

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1 shoulder with partner groups around the Southeast 

2 to lend more voices to this critical 

3 conversation.

4 Appalachian Voices is an organization 

5 dedicated to speaking up for the mountain region 

6 and those most impacted by extreme coal mining 

7 methods, applauds the national action on carbon 

8 that's been so overdue.

9 Having grown up in Richmond in the shadow 

10 of the Dutch Gap Power Station and seeing my 

11 younger sister suffer from asthma, I'm proud to 

12 be working to cut carbon emissions in the region, 

13 along with our partner gropes through our 

14 programs to grow a local energy efficiency and 

15 clean energy economy throughout the Southeast.

16 Regional supporters of energy efficiency 

17 and renewable energy along with public health and 

18 environmental advocates are watching closely to 

19 see how EPA guidelines influence the Southeast's 

20 overall energy mix. And in the meantime we've 

21 seen a swell of support from our region for a 

22 strong limit on carbon dioxide pollution from the 

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1 country's nearly 600 coal fired power plants.

2 Folks across the political spectrum have 

3 now actually been making the connection between 

4 global warming and our energy choices; especially 

5 when it comes to sea level rise in Eastern 

6 Virginia, a place that's dear to my heart.

7 The impacts of our increasingly warming 

8 planet have been covered a moment ago by Ivy Main 

9 of the Sierra Club. I'll just add that we hear 

10 from home gardeners and large scale growers alike 

11 in our region, that the seasons have changed and 

12 continue to shift, and also from folks who like 

13 the outdoors, that ticks have been increasing 

14 really badly. And I was also really struck by 

15 the point just made about outdoor tourism and 

16 recreation.

17 To wrap up, you know, our region will 

18 benefit from the opportunities that this rule 

19 signals in the way that it will advance carbon 

20 free energy. 

21 I'll point out that a recent study from 

22 researchers at Carnegie Mellon University found 

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1 that wind and solar achieve greater health and 

2 climate benefits in Ohio, Western Pennsylvania, 

3 and West Virginia than in other parts of the 

4 country because they replaced the most 

5 electricity generated by coal plants. 

6 And according to Kyle Siler-Evans at 

7 Carnegie Mellon University I would directly 

8 quote, "A wind turbine in West Virginia displaces 

9 twice as much carbon dioxide and seven times as 

10 much health damage as the same turbine in 

11 California."

12 While many states in our region still 

13 lack good policies to promote clean energy 

14 development, diminishing coal investment is 

15 already a clear trend. In July the World Bank 

16 announced it will end the financing of coal 

17 plants and circumstances where there are no 

18 feasible alternatives, and Goldman Sacks issued a 

19 paper recently with the blunt title, The Window 

20 for Thermal Coal Investment is Closing.

21 So we've seen the signs. And flexible as 

22 the draft proposal is, it is really our hope that 

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1 it will transfer -- or rather translate into a 

2 final rule that drives reductions in wasted 

3 energy in our region, a region that consumes so 

4 much power.

5 Our region has seen coal jobs decline 

6 already and there's really a real promise and 

7 potential to diversify into a number of new 

8 industries to drive the economy. Especially 

9 through initiatives like promise zones. We know 

10 that the administration has shown a commitment to 

11 justice in our region.

12 On behalf of our supporters throughout

13 Appalachia and across the country who are 

14 awaiting a strong final version of the rule, 

15 thank you for your leadership and responsible 

16 approach to getting our nation back on track to 

17 climate stability. Thank you.

18 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Just 

19 one second. I'm going to exercise chair 

20 prerogative here and rearrange the next panel 

21 just ever so slightly. Senator Merkley is here 

22 and he needs to leave shortly. So after this 

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1 panel the next panel will be Governor Markell and 

2 Senator Merkley. Greg Dotson, I ask your 

3 indulgence. You and Fred Krupp will be the panel 

4 after that.

5 Mr. Feng. 

6 MR. FENG: Thank you for this opportunity 

7 to speak. I'll try not to repeat anything my 

8 boss said. My name is Jeff Feng. I was born and 

9 raised in Radford, Virginia in the heart of the 

10 New River Valley, and I'm a rising sophomore at 

11 Duke University.

12 My comments today mark the approaching 

13 end in my summer internship with Appalachian 

14 Voices. It's an environmental nonprofit leading 

15 a concerted effort to protect the land, water, 

16 and air of the Appalachian region.

17 It's fitting that I will end my 

18 internship where it began, with comments on the 

19 historic progress that had made weeks -- that 

20 made news my first week on the job. The EPA's 

21 Clean Power Plan.

22 The summer has culminated at a whirlwind 

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1 pace, weaving together both familiar lessons and 

2 foreign concepts. I'm here today to present the 

3 most important lesson of all; there is strength 

4 in numbers and there is strength to diversity. 

5 In a few short weeks of petitioning 

6 public events we have collected over 1,220 

7 individual comments cards in support of the Clean 

8 Power Plan, stretching across all of Virginia and 

9 beyond these individuals realize the opportunity 

10 to build their own state's economy through the 

11 common sense approach of the Administration's

12 plan. 

13 Small business owners -- the economic 

14 factor on many communities have also responded to 

15 cutting carbon pollution. Recent polling from 

16 the American Sustainable Business Council 

17 indicates a clear majority of small business 

18 owners support government regulations to curb 

19 carbon pollution from power plants. 

20 In one week 51 small business owners 

21 signed comment cards and sided with Appalachian 

22 Voices to support climate action.

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1 Fundamentally they all realized, when an 

2 entity threatens our safety, health, and 

3 environment, they must act. As we move forward 

4 we are problemetizing (sic) the environment. We 

5 are asking ourselves the tough questions, and 

6 considering the leeward side of the environmental 

7 agenda. Will all our efforts be worth it? And I 

8 certainly think so, and so did the 1,220 

9 individuals and 51 small business owners I 

10 present to you today.

11 The proposal gives us flexibility, but we 

12 are advocating for a cleaner future and the space 

13 to move forward with energy efficiency and 

14 renewables that will hopefully become more cost 

15 effective than they already are. 

16 And if implemented poorly, much of our 

17 work will be for naught. With these slots in 

18 mind, we are prepared to keep fighting and 

19 implore the EPA to continue to address the risks 

20 associated with climate change.

21 In closing my internship, much like the 

22 EPA Clean Power Plan has been a commemoration of 

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1 environmental success, while also creating a 

2 unique space to think critically of the 

3 challenges to come. In the subsequent years I 

4 imagine we'll dig beneath the superficial, 

5 examining and learning to benefit future 

6 generations and ourselves. Thank you.

7 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

8 Next panel is Governor Markell, and I think this 

9 is supposed to say Senator Markey, or is there a 

10 --

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. Yes. 

12 MR. POWERS: Senator, you're welcome to -

13 - is there a Senator Merkley? Is that correct? 

14 I'm sorry. I wondered if it was a misprint. 

15 Senator Merkley, you were here first. You're 

16 next.

17 Okay. And then Senator Markey you'll be 

18 next, recognizing my home state senator. Good to 

19 -- Governor. 

20 SENATOR MERKLEY: Thank you very much. 

21 Thank you for the opportunity to testify on the 

22 importance of the Clean Power Plan. I 

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1 particularly want to thank EPA for taking this 

2 historic step to tackle carbon pollution.

3 We have all heard the arguments from 

4 skeptics that the Clean Power Plan is just 

5 another job-killing regulation. But let's get 

6 the facts straight. Carbon pollution is waging a 

7 direct assault on rural America. It is a direct 

8 assault on jobs in in America. And if we sit 

9 back and do nothing there will be severe economic 

10 disruption.

11 In that context the Clean Power Plan, the 

12 most significant action ever taken to combat 

13 carbon pollution in the United States, is

14 indispensible to our economic future. 

15 This is an issue that affects every state 

16 in our country, but today I'll speak specifically 

17 about the impacts we are seeing in my home state

18 of Oregon, where our farming, fishing, and forest 

19 industries are already seeing the effects of 

20 carbon pollution.

21 Let me start with farming. Farming is 

22 crucial to Oregon's rural economy. Many family 

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1 farmers and ranchers rely on snow melt to supply 

2 a stable supply of irrigation water in the 

3 spring. We are already seeing a 20 percent drop 

4 in the snow pack in the Cascades since 1950. 

5 With warmer temperatures and less waters, farmers 

6 are seeing a significant problem regarding the 

7 supply of water for their growing season.

8 Not only that the precipitation patterns 

9 are becoming increasingly irregular, adding a 

10 layer of uncertainty for farmers who have 

11 invested their livelihoods in their crops. 

12 Farmers and ranchers in the Klamath Basin 

13 of Oregon, for example, have been hammered by 

14 major droughts in 2001, 2010, 2013, and they are 

15 struggling to stay afloat. If you talk to these 

16 farmers and ranchers, not just in Klamath County, 

17 but throughout Oregon, you'll hear that the 

18 impact of the changing climate is not some 

19 distant threat, it is a threat and a reality 

20 right now.

21 Or turn to fishing. Fishing is another 

22 critical industry that's in danger from the 

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1 assault of carbon pollution, with lower snow melt 

2 we have warmer and smaller rivers in the spring, 

3 and in the summer making it harder on our trout, 

4 and certainly more difficult for our Salmon and 

5 our Steelhead. 

6 And over on our coast our oyster farmers 

7 are being impacted by ocean acidification. 

8 Greater carbon dioxide in the air absorbed by the 

9 ocean results in more acidity when the carbon 

10 dioxide dissolves in the ocean and becomes 

11 carbonic acid. 

12 Our ocean is 30 percent more acidic today 

13 than it was before the Industrial Revolution. 

14 And this increased acidity is preventing young 

15 oysters from forming shells, causing mortalities 

16 at oyster hatcheries. 

17 If that is a challenge for baby oysters,

18 what else is going on in the ocean food chain, or 

19 the chain of life, that we should be deeply 

20 concerned about.

21 Talking to fishermen and oyster farmers 

22 in Oregon, you'll hear that climate change and 

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1 carbon pollution is not some distant threat, it 

2 is happening now.

3 And let's turn to forests. Carbon 

4 pollution is also compounding threat to Oregon's 

5 forests, which support thousands of jobs in our 

6 state. Warmer conditions put our forests under 

7 greater stress making them more prone to wild 

8 fires and infestations.

9 You have to look no further than the wild 

10 fires burning in Oregon today to see how bad this 

11 problem is. At this moment we have seven large 

12 fires burning in Oregon which consumed almost 

13 half a million acres, and we're still many months 

14 to go in the fire season.

15 In fact the fire season has grown from 

16 five months to seven months just since the 1970s.

17 In addition, Mountain Pine Beatle 

18 infestations are turning previously green forests 

19 into red landscapes of dead trees. It's known as 

20 the red zone. These infestations continue to 

21 spread across the Northwest due to warmer and 

22 shorter winters.

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1 Combined with decades of hazardous fuels 

2 building up in our forest, climate change is 

3 making a bad problem worse.

4 So if you talk to foresters in Oregon 

5 you'll hear that climate change isn't some 

6 distant threat. It's happening right now.

7 We could look at any one of these impacts 

8 as an anomaly. But when you step back and look 

9 at the full picture, when you look at the trends, 

10 the science is undeniable. Certainly carbon 

11 pollution is assaulting our rural resources and 

12 the impact is growing. Our farming, fishing, and 

13 forestry matter. They matter in the State of 

14 Oregon, they matter to our nation, and they need 

15 to be protected.

16 The Clean Power Plan will not only save 

17 jobs in those sectors, but it will invest in 

18 hundreds of thousands of jobs in the clean energy 

19 economy. 

20 In fact the solar energy industry alone 

21 now employs roughly twice as many people as the 

22 coal mining industry. To say nothing of wind, 

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1 biomass, geothermal, and other renewable 

2 resources.

3 This is why I support the Clean Power 

4 Plan. If anything I think we should think 

5 seriously about strengthening it. Let there be 

6 no doubt that the Clean Power Plan is a key tool 

7 to reduce the job-killing impacts of carbon 

8 pollution. And it's a catalyst to help grow a 

9 thriving new clean energy economy that will 

10 provide even more jobs and a healthier planet.

11 As Henry Thoreau once said, what good is 

12 a home if you don't have a tolerable planet to 

13 put it on? Thank you.

14 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Could 

15 I remind all speakers to please state your name 

16 for the transcriber when we start?

17 GOVENOR MARKELL: Good morning. My name 

18 is Jack Markell, I'm the Governor of the State of 

19 Delaware and I'm testifying in support of the 

20 Clean Power Plan, not because of what we think 

21 might be possible with this policy change, but 

22 because we know what this plan can do for the 

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1 nation.

2 The EPA's proposal to address climate 

3 change would bring cleaner air, better health, 

4 more research manufacturing and construction 

5 jobs, and more efficient and less costly energy.

6 We know that because we see all this 

7 happening in Delaware, where over the past five 

8 years we've shifted from one of the dirtiest 

9 energy mixes in the nation, to one of the 

10 cleanest.

11 We've decreased emissions by a greater 

12 percentage than any other state, while creating 

13 jobs at the same time. And we've done so with 

14 the same approach that the President proposes for 

15 the country. We shut down or fuel switched nine 

16 out of our 10 dirtiest power plants, while the 

17 remaining unit installed hundreds of millions of 

18 dollars in pollution controls.

19 We've increased a deployment of solar 

20 technology 30 times since 2008. We've 

21 strengthened building codes and we have spurred 

22 $100 million in efficiency upgrades, and we've 

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1 also worked with states throughout the region to 

2 dramatically cut carbon pollution.

3 The Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, 

4 or RGGI, which you've heard about, has used a 

5 market based system to help reduce carbon 

6 pollution from power plants in our states by more 

7 than 40 percent since 2005. 

8 And EPA's plan will stimulate more of all 

9 of this activity across the nation. It lets 

10 states use solutions that work best for us 

11 individually to reduce dirty emissions, 

12 recognizing that power plants produce more of 

13 these emissions than any other source in the 

14 country.

15 And there's one example of what our 

16 strategy has meant for Delaware. I recently 

17 visited a site in Dover where hundreds of people 

18 are working to build a natural gas power 

19 generating facility for Calpine Energy. Calpine 

20 has made it a priority to transition away from 

21 the power plants that produce the emissions, and 

22 of course, yes, they do it because they care 

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1 about the environment, but they also do it 

2 because it's good for their bottom line.

3 In addition, facilities like the one in 

4 Dover will produce cost effective energy that 

5 will reduce energy bills, while making our state 

6 more attractive to manufacturers. And in fact 

7 across the country it's projected that the Clean 

8 Power Plan would shrink electricity bills by 

9 about eight percent by increasing efficiency and 

10 reducing demand.

11 The economic benefits of this go far 

12 beyond the impact on individual energy companies 

13 or on consumer's bills. 

14 A report last month on the economic risks 

15 of climate change illustrates the widespread 

16 effects, including damage to the agriculture and 

17 energy sectors, as well as to coastal 

18 communities, public health, and our labor 

19 productivity. And all this damage costs us a lot 

20 of money.

21 In Delaware we've seen how rising sea 

22 levels are more powerful and frequent storms and 

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1 other extreme weather conditions put families and 

2 businesses at risk. 

3 Like Senator Merkley was talking about in 

4 his state, our largest industry, agriculture, 

5 faces severe conditions that harm crops. And as 

6 the lowest lying state in the nation climate 

7 change could literally put much of Delaware under 

8 water.

9 All states face their own challenges, and 

10 we governors don't have the luxury of pretending 

11 that climate change is not causing real damage. 

12 We're on the front line of hurricanes, wild 

13 fires, droughts, and other natural disasters. We 

14 see the property that's devastated and the cost 

15 of addressing the damage after the fact. We live 

16 with the consequences of inaction.

17 Our families and businesses can't afford 

18 to wait and see what happens next before we act. 

19 So I'm pleased that the EPA has issued this new 

20 rule and I look forward to its implementation. 

21 Thank you.

22 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

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1 Senator Markey and I think I'm a little out of 

2 order. Greg Dotson and then Fred Krupp will be 

3 on the next panel.

4 I'd like to encourage anybody who would 

5 like a seat; there are plenty of seats here in 

6 the middle or behind me if you'd prefer to sit 

7 than stand.

8 Senator Markey, good morning.

9 SENATOR MARKEY: Thank you so much. I am 

10 Senator Ed Markey from Massachusetts, and I am 

11 here today to stand with America's families who 

12 want clean air, safe water, and a stable climate. 

13 The planet is running a fever. There are 

14 no emergency rooms for planets. America must 

15 lead. History calls us to reduce greenhouse 

16 gases and unleash a clean energy revolution.

17 When America sets strong environmental 

18 safeguards, and when our innovative spirit rises 

19 to the challenge, millions of jobs are created, 

20 millions of Americans are healthier, our air is 

21 cleaner, our water is safer.

22 But that hasn't stopped critics from 

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1 attacking these proposed rules in the 

2 Environmental Protection Agency. Republicans in 

3 congress have said these rules would be 

4 catastrophic. The House Speaker called them 

5 nuts. One even accused EPA of acting like 

6 terrorists.

7 If the critics of climate action spent 

8 more time believing in American innovation and 

9 less time attacking climate science, I believe 

10 our economy, our environment, and our planet 

11 would all be better off, because in my home state 

12 of Massachusetts, we've been reducing carbon 

13 pollution for years and the results are 

14 tremendous.

15 The proposed EPA rule says that America 

16 should reduce our carbon emissions from coal 

17 plants by 30 percent by 2030, from 2005 levels. 

18 Massachusetts, as part of the regional agreement 

19 to cut emissions has already reduced emissions by 

20 roughly 40 percent by 2005 levels. 

21 Massachusetts has moved aggressively to 

22 natural gas, to renewables, and to energy 

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1 efficiency. We are a small densely populated 

2 state known more for the Perfect Storm than for 

3 perfectly sunny days. But last year 

4 Massachusetts ranked fourth in the nation in 

5 solar deployment. We've been the number one 

6 state in the nation for energy efficiency for 

7 three years in a row. And we'll soon be breaking 

8 ground on the first off-shore wind farm in our 

9 country's history.

10 What were the effects from all these 

11 carbon cutting clean energy actions? Our 

12 employment rate has outpaced the national average 

13 every single month except three since the 2008 

14 financial crash. We employ 80,000 people in 

15 clean energy in Massachusetts. That number is 

16 expected to grow to 90,000 people working on 

17 clean energy in Massachusetts by the end of this 

18 year.

19 When electricity rates around the United 

20 States have climbed 13 percent over the past 

21 eight years, they have actually declined by six 

22 percent in Massachusetts over that time that we 

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1 have been reducing our greenhouse gases. 

2 And during these same years our 

3 Massachusetts economy expanded by 23 percent on 

4 nearly $80 billion, and the amount of electricity 

5 we consume actually declined.

6 In Massachusetts we've radically slashed 

7 our carbon emissions, we've grown our economy, 

8 we've created good 21st Century jobs, we've 

9 reduced the amount of electricity we consume, and 

10 we pay less for electricity. 

11 Massachusetts has shown that reducing 

12 carbon pollution can be a money saver and a jobs 

13 creator. I thank administrator McCarthy and the 

14 EPA staff for crafting a common sense rule that 

15 will allow each state to find the best way 

16 forward to make carbon pollution reductions in 

17 their state.

18 As the EPA works to finalize the rule 

19 during the coming year, I encourage the agency to 

20 look closely at the ability of energy efficiency 

21 and renewable energy to drive further pollution 

22 reductions. 

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1 The reality of climate change is already 

2 here. Globally June was the hottest June on 

3 record going back to 1880. The warmest June 

4 ever. For 352 straight months the planet's 

5 temperature has been above the 20th Century 

6 average. That means if you're 29 years old or 

7 younger, you have never known a month without 

8 hotter than average temperatures. 

9 The seas are rising, storms are getting 

10 stronger, the droughts longer, heat waves more 

11 intense. 

12 In May I had the honor to meet and 

13 discuss climate change with Pope Francis and his 

14 top advisors in the Vatican. He understands that 

15 regardless of faith or party, we are all called 

16 to respond to this personal and planetary 

17 challenge. 

18 These EPA rules will allow the United 

19 States to engage in clean energy job creation 

20 that will benefit all of creation. Global 

21 warming is a moral issue. It is a security 

22 issue. It is an economic issue. It is the 

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1 challenge of our time and we must rise to meet 

2 it. Thank you.

3 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Greg Dotson.

4 MR. DOTSON: Good morning. My name is 

5 Greg Dotson. I'm the vice president for energy 

6 policy at the Center for American Progress. 

7 The Center for American Progress is a 

8 think tank dedicated to improving the lives of 

9 Americans through progressive ideas and action.

10 I'm here today to commend the U.S. 

11 Environmental Protection Agency for its proposed 

12 Clean Power Plan. For too long power plants have 

13 been able to spew carbon pollution into our air 

14 without limits; without regard to the harm that 

15 the pollution is doing and will do.

16 The science is absolutely clear that we 

17 need to cut our carbon pollution. The Clean 

18 Power Plan is an essential step in that 

19 direction. By setting standards for existing 

20 power plants, EPA's proposed rule will not only 

21 cut pollution, will also help establish the 

22 United States as a global leader in the fight to 

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1 address climate change, save American families 

2 money on their energy bills, improve the nation's 

3 health, and help bring some clarity to a rapidly 

4 changing energy sector.

5 Numerous scientific reports have sounded 

6 the alarm on climate change. The National 

7 Climate Assessment released earlier this year is 

8 one of the most recent and most thorough 

9 scientific evaluations of the climate change 

10 threat.

11 It finds that while climate change was 

12 once considered an issue for our distant future, 

13 it has moved firmly into the present. The 

14 impacts of climate change are being felt by real 

15 people from Louisiana to Alaska, and from Vermont 

16 to Washington.

17 The report concludes, however, that the 

18 future severity of climate change is yet to be 

19 determined. It states that the amount of future 

20 climate change will still largely be determined 

21 by the choices society makes about pollution. 

22 Lower emissions of carbon pollution mean less 

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1 future warming and less severe impacts. Higher 

2 emissions mean more warming and more severe 

3 impacts.

4 A new White House report released just 

5 this morning explains how delaying action to 

6 address climate change could levy a heavy cost 

7 upon the nation. Not only will we suffer 

8 increased damages associated with the impacts of 

9 unchecked climate change, we'll also bear more 

10 expensive mitigation costs as the needed rate and 

11 amount of reduction steepen with each year of 

12 delayed action.

13 This morning I want to make three several 

14 key points about EPA's proposal. First, although 

15 some are irresponsibly urging the EPA to allow 

16 big industrial facilities to continue to pollute 

17 with impunity, the Agency must stay committed to 

18 its missing. Protecting our children from carbon 

19 pollution is your legal duty, and it's everyone's 

20 moral obligation.

21 Second, the EPA will have the opportunity 

22 to strengthen this proposal before it is 

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1 finalized next year. We urge the Agency to do 

2 so. Some of the lowest costs emissions 

3 reductions available are in our electricity 

4 system, and we should do all we can to take 

5 advantage of them.

6 For example, the Clean Power Plan should 

7 recognize the huge potential of energy efficiency 

8 and the remarkable demonstrated growth rate of 

9 renewable energy in determining the possible 

10 emissions reductions.

11 Finally, we should recognize that 

12 electricity utilities are typically sophisticated 

13 entities that can innovate and respond to new 

14 policy direction. For years they have understood 

15 climate science and have known that action to 

16 address climate change would be inevitable. In 

17 fact utilities have supported carbon taxes, cap 

18 and trade proposals, and clean energy standards. 

19 For this reason, allowing flexibility in 

20 achieving the goals can have significant benefits 

21 to stakeholders. However, the final plan must be 

22 crafted in a way that ensures environmental 

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1 results, marrying flexibility with 

2 accountability.

3 And because an effective response to 

4 climate change may require additional emissions 

5 reductions from the power sector, EPA should be 

6 careful not to create the expectation that the 

7 Clean Power Plan's targets are all that can be 

8 asked of the electricity utilities.

9 Former Treasury Secretary, Robert Rubin 

10 and Hank Paulson recently agreed that climate 

11 change poses a huge risk to the nation's economy. 

12 Fortunately, it's not too late to address this 

13 risk. EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan is an 

14 essential step to curing our pollution and 

15 managing our risk.

16 The Center for American Progress supports 

17 the proposal and encourages EPA to examine 

18 opportunities to realize even greater emissions 

19 reductions before finalizing the plan next year. 

20 Thank you for the opportunity to testify.

21 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

22 Next speaker is Fred Krupp. And with him, 

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1 Lindsay Moseley-Alexander. 

2 I'm going to ask you to grab that mic. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MR. KRUPP: Good morning.

5 MR. POWERS: Good morning.

6 MR. KRUPP: And thank you for the 

7 opportunity to testify on behalf of the 

8 President's Clean Power Plan. I am Fred Krupp, 

9 President of the Environmental Defense Fund, a 

10 national organization that links science,

11 economics, law and private sector partnerships to 

12 solve our most serious environmental problems.

13 Right now there are no limits on carbon 

14 pollution from power plants, and that simply is 

15 unacceptable. On behalf of our 800,000 members 

16 and activists, I am here today to strongly 

17 support action to finally limit carbon pollution 

18 from power plants. But even more I'm here on 

19 behalf of the hundreds of millions of Americans 

20 who will benefit from the Clean Power Plan, for 

21 the millions of kids who will have fewer asthma 

22 attacks in the future, including the severely 

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1 impacted communities of Latino children who are 

2 40 percent more likely to suffer from attacks, 

3 for the workers who will find jobs in the growing 

4 industries like wind, solar, and energy 

5 efficiency, for the rate payers who will see 

6 their electricity bills go down as we modernize 

7 the way we create and consume electricity. And 

8 for all those who will be protected from the most 

9 damaging impacts of climate change. For our 

10 children and grandchildren who will know that our 

11 generation cared enough to leave them a safer 

12 healthier world.

13 I'm particularly enthusiastic that the 

14 rule you were considering sets national 

15 standards, but leaves states freedom to design

16 the approach that best fits their circumstances, 

17 and encourages investors, inventers, and 

18 entrepreneurs to find new ways to cut pollution. 

19 And it gives industry flexibility to find the 

20 most efficient path to a clean future.

21 We believe the Clean Power Plan is an 

22 historic step forward for American and the world. 

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1 We also know that these standards can and need to 

2 deliver deeper pollution reductions more rapidly 

3 than proposed. There also needs to be a clear 

4 pathway to update the standards over time to 

5 account for advances in technology and 

6 improvements in the best systems for emissions 

7 reductions.

8 We know that transition to clean energy 

9 is not only possible, it's affordable. We are 

10 already halfway to achieving the goal that you 

11 have set for 2030. And the cost of renewable 

12 energy has dropped dramatically in recent years.

13 For instance, the price of solar panels 

14 has been cut 75 percent since 2008, and the U.S. 

15 added more solar capacity in the past 18 months 

16 than in the previous 30 years combined. This 

17 means we can set even more ambitious goals for 

18 clean energy. This rule helps put us on a path 

19 to more customer choice on energy.

20 Now we've heard from customers who have 

21 freed themselves from utility bills because they 

22 are making their own clean energy. But we've 

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1 seen efforts by some to undermine progress 

2 towards clean energy, pushing states to limit 

3 consumer access to clean energy sources like 

4 solar. The interest groups who oppose this plan, 

5 who profit from the way things are done now, have 

6 certainly done their best to scare the public. 

7 They do it every time we try to make our air 

8 cleaner. But in every case their predictions 

9 have been flat wrong.

10 The costs have been far lower and the 

11 benefits far greater than they've claimed. In 

12 fact every time EPA has used the Clean Air Act to 

13 limit air pollution it's ended up boosting our 

14 economy. Overall the benefits have outweighed 

15 the cost by 30 to one.

16 And every past rule has saved lives; tens 

17 of thousands of lives. 

18 Hiding from challenges is not what 

19 Americans do. And it is certainly the wrong path 

20 for us and for generations to come. The bottom 

21 line is that we cannot continue down the path of 

22 unlimited pollution. Indeed science demands that 

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1 this proposal be only the first step in 

2 addressing carbon pollution from the largest 

3 source in our country.

4 This new plan is moderate, flexible, and 

5 necessary. I hope all of us, liberals and 

6 conservatives, republicans and democrats, 

7 business people and environmentalists can work 

8 together to adopt the strong limit on carbon 

9 pollution and move our nation forward to a clean 

10 and prosperous future. Thank you.

11 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. 

12 MS. MOSELEY ALEXANDER: Good morning. I'm 

13 Lindsay Moseley-Alexander, Assistant Vice 

14 President and Director of the American Lung 

15 Association's Healthy Air Campaign.

16 I appreciate very much the opportunity to 

17 speak with you today to support EPA's proposal to 

18 limit carbon pollution from existing power 

19 plants.

20 The American Lung Association is 

21 committed to fighting carbon pollution because it 

22 saves lives and improves lung health, which is 

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1 our mission. Even with the steps that are in 

2 place to reduce air pollution, evidence warns 

3 that higher temperatures due to carbon pollution 

4 and climate change increase the risk of unhealthy 

5 air in large parts of the United States because 

6 heat enhances conditions for ozone and 

7 particulate matter.

8 We've come a long way in the fight to 

9 reduce air pollution, thanks in large part to the 

10 work of this Agency. But it's clear that we 

11 still have a long way to go to ensure that the 

12 air we breathe doesn’t' make people sick or kill 

13 them. And we certainly don't want to see it get 

14 worse due to climate change.

15 For those who live with chronic lung 

16 diseases, ozone and particulate matter can cause 

17 difficulty breathing, trigger asthma attacks, and 

18 premature death, and have been linked to low 

19 birth weight in newborns.

20 Children are vulnerable because their 

21 airways are still developing. Even healthy 

22 children who grow up where ozone levels are high 

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1 may be at greater risk for lung diseases later in 

2 life.

3 Particulate matter is linked to heart 

4 attacks and strokes, and we now know that 

5 particulate matter also causes lung cancer, which 

6 is the number one cancer killer in women.

7 In addition to worsened air quality the 

8 recent national climate assessment highlights 

9 other critical health impacts from climate change 

10 that are being felt across the nation today, 

11 including heat waves, wildfires, drought, 

12 excessive precipitation, flooding, dust storms, 

13 and more.

14 All of these events have very serious 

15 public health consequences that we cannot afford 

16 to ignore. Reducing carbon pollution from power 

17 plants is a vital step in the right direction. 

18 The American Lung Association also celebrates the 

19 good news that taking steps to reduce carbon 

20 pollution from existing power plants will also 

21 cut other life threatening air pollutants

22 including nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, and 

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1 mercury. 

2 This is a win/win for the American 

3 people. Why? Let's look at what these 

4 pollutants do. Nitrogen oxides irritate the 

5 lungs, trigger asthma attacks, and increase the 

6 risk of infections. Sulfur dioxide triggers 

7 asthma attacks and increases risk of 

8 hospitalizations and emergency room visits. 

9 These pollutants are also known as 

10 precursors to ozone and particulate matter 

11 previously discussed. And everyone knows that 

12 mercury is a dangerous neurotoxin. It is vital 

13 that EPA both calculate and inform the public of 

14 these important lifesaving co-benefits of 

15 reducing carbon pollution from power plants. So 

16 thank you for doing so.

17 We would like to offer a few suggestions 

18 for improving the plan and maximizing health 

19 protections. To adequately protect public health 

20 we need greater reductions in carbon pollution 

21 and in the other pollutants than what EPA has 

22 outlined in this proposal. The American Lung 

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1 Association strongly urges EPA to strengthen 

2 state emission reduction targets, providing 

3 greater immediate and long term public health 

4 benefits.

5 We also urge EPA to shorten the timeframe 

6 for compliance to five years without setting 

7 weaker standards to accommodate a shorter 

8 timeframe.

9 The American Lung Association does not 

10 support bio-mass combustion for electricity 

11 production. EPA should revise the plan to 

12 exclude bio-mass combustion as an acceptable 

13 alternative energy source.

14 EPA must ensure that the Clean Power Plan 

15 provides real relief to communities located near 

16 power plants who have suffered the impacts of 

17 power plant pollution for decades.

18 And finally we urge EPA to quickly and 

19 clearly spell out the timing and process for how 

20 to enforce federal plan for states that fail to 

21 meet the requirements. We will submit more 

22 detailed technical comments separately to EPA. 

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1 And thank you again for the opportunity to speak 

2 today.

3 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

4 The next panel is Cindy Parker and Matt Schlapp. 

5 Is Cindy Parker present? No. Okay. In 

6 that case Pamela Ellis will be I guess, the other 

7 part of this panel.

8 All right. You may get a panel by 

9 yourself. That does not mean you get 10 minutes. 

10 But --

11 MR. SCHLAPP: I promise to not take it 

12 personally that nobody wants to sit by me. 

13 Thank you for giving me the opportunity 

14 to speak to you for a few minutes today. My name 

15 is Matt Schlapp and I am Chairman of the American 

16 Conservative Union, the ACU.

17 The ACU is our country's oldest and 

18 largest grass roots conservative organization, 

19 and we are deeply concerned about EPA's proposed 

20 carbon scheme.

21 ACU believes that EPA's proposal is 

22 flawed for a wide range of reasons, many of which 

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1 have been discussed by other speakers. Actually, 

2 not that many speakers.

3 In particular, we believe that the 

4 proposal is yet another example of executive 

5 overreach and a violation of the principles of 

6 cooperative federalism. 

7 EPA's proposal is an unacceptable example 

8 of executive overreach. Issues such as climate 

9 change policy involve complicated issues that 

10 touch on all aspects of our economy and lives. 

11 Decisions how and whether to create laws of this 

12 breadth should be made by our representative 

13 branches of government, not by unelected Federal 

14 Agency officials.

15 In fact the only reason this proposal is 

16 under consideration by EPA is because attempts to 

17 reshape our energy sector and economy through 

18 legislation have failed. The President is 

19 unabashedly attempting to circumvent the will of 

20 the people and Congress through regulatory fiat, 

21 proposing hundreds of pages of new regulations 

22 based on a provision in the Clean Air Act that 

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1 has never been used for a regulatory approach 

2 this broad. 

3 And while ACU appreciates this chance to 

4 speak these public sessions are a poor substitute 

5 for the democratic deliberation and debate by 

6 elected officials in the states and in Congress.

7 The bottom line is that if the goal is to 

8 make sound policy, our democratic system is the 

9 right tool to use, not bureaucratic fiat. 

10 Overall ACU shares Justice Scalia's 

11 recent statement that EPA rules should be viewed 

12 with skepticism when the agency, quote, 

13 "Discovers in a long extant statute an unheralded 

14 power to regulate, quote, a significant portion 

15 of the American economy." Close quote.

16 This proposal by EPA is just such a rule. 

17 Converting 300 words of statutory language into 

18 hundreds of pages of regulatory mandates touching 

19 on every aspect of the modern economy. This 

20 proposal should be rejected because it turns the 

21 proper relationship between Congress and the 

22 executive agencies on its head, making EPA more 

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1 powerful than Congress. And the tool that the 

2 President can use to bypass the representative 

3 branch of our government. This is undemocratic, 

4 unlawful, and unacceptable.

5 The EPA proposal is also insupportable 

6 because it violates the basic tenants of 

7 cooperative federalism. Our Constitution 

8 entrusts states with most topics, and states 

9 should be able to make policies regarding 

10 electricity generation and efficiency without 

11 being second guessed by the EPA.

12 Although EPA and supporters of this 

13 proposal have touted its flexibility, this 

14 proposal makes state government subservient to 

15 the EPA, with states having to seek EPA approval 

16 for their policies and topics ranging from how 

17 electricity is generated to state tax policies 

18 related to energy, to how companies and 

19 households use electricity.

20 Even more disturbing at recent testimony 

21 before Congress, EPA Assistant Administrator, 

22 Janet McCabe confirmed that state legislators 

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1 will have to obtain EPA sign-off on legislation 

2 that they adopt through normal democratic means. 

3 Making state legislators accountable to 

4 EPA for every aspect of energy and electricity 

5 policy makes a mockery of the founders' 

6 conception of federalism. To serve as 

7 laboratories of democracies as our founders 

8 envisioned, states must be free to develop 

9 policies appropriate for their people without 

10 always having to ask EPA's permission. 

11 Giving states rigid carbon targets and 

12 telling them to submit their plans for reaching 

13 those targets is not cooperative and it is not 

14 federalism. It is a form of centralized energy 

15 planning that is inconsistent with our Federal 

16 system and should be rejected. 

17 EPA has not been given the power, and 

18 does not have the expertise to engage in the type 

19 of centralized economic and energy planning that 

20 this proposal represents. If adopted ACU fears 

21 that this proposal will deliver no real benefits 

22 to health or the economy and will further erode 

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1 the proper relationship between the executive and 

2 legislative branches, and the states and the 

3 Federal Government.

4 EPA should withdraw this proposal and 

5 cease trying to find ways to use limited grants 

6 of authority as tools to circumvent congress and 

7 control state governments. Thank you very much.

8 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Next pane is 

9 Pamela Ellis, one more time, and -- you're here. 

10 And Anya and Zaporah Ellis. 

11 Good morning. 

12 MS. P. ELLIS: Good morning. Girls, go 

13 ahead. 

14 MS. A. ELLIS: My name is Anya Ellis, and 

15 I'm here today with my twin sister, Zaporah. 

16 MS. Z. ELLIS: Hi.

17 MS. A. ELLIS: We came today to talk 

18 about the preconceptions that students have 

19 towards the environment. Kids today think it's a 

20 joking matter. 

21 MS. Z. ELLIS: Yeah. While on the school 

22 bus during the school year, I heard one kid say, 

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1 "Two planets meet. The first one asks, how are 

2 you? Not so well says the second one. Then the 

3 first one reassures him, oh -- "

4 MS. A. ELLIS: Okay. This is how the 

5 joke goes. The first one asks, how are you. The 

6 second planet goes, not so well. I have the 

7 homosapiens. The first one reassures him, 

8 saying, I have them too. It doesn't last long. 

9 Hehehe. Anyway. That's how the joke goes.

10 MS. Z. ELLIS: Yeah, and the point was, I 

11 think the fact that people are joking about it 

12 sort of indicates that students today don't think 

13 we like need to create sustainable communities. 

14 MS. A. ELLIS: I agree. There has been a 

15 growing number of disregard to the environment 

16 because adults don't show examples, positive 

17 examples, for us to look up to.

18 MS. Z. ELLIS: Yeah. So many of us are 

19 starting to suffer from allergies, and in my AP 

20 Biology class I learned that studies show that 

21 air pollution is making kids unhealthy. 

22 MS. A. ELLIS: I don't think we need to 

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1 be in AP Bio to understand that kids these days 

2 are having more allergies than past generations 

3 before them. 

4 MS. Z. ELLIS: We need adults around us 

5 to push themselves and try and tell people about 

6 this problem so that the kids will also start 

7 taking it seriously. 

8 MS. A. ELLIS: I think that too. I 

9 expect our legislators to continue to excel in 

10 protecting our environment. I put emphasis on 

11 our environment, people. Just to tell you. And 

12 to pass more vigorous standards than they have 

13 before. 

14 MS. Z. ELLIS: Exactly. The Clean Power 

15 Plan is that. It enforces better standards and 

16 as our nation learns, excelling isn't about doing 

17 the standards of yesterday, but pushing the 

18 boundaries for newer, greater standards today.

19 MS. A. ELLIS: Yes. Thank you. 

20 MS. P. ELLIS: I am the mother of these 

21 beautiful young women, and I'd like to thank the 

22 honorable panel members, the Sierra Club

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1 supporters, and my fellow Americans for this 

2 opportunity to come. 

3 My name is Dr. Pamela Sanders-Ellis, and 

4 we live in the Eastern Panhandle of West 

5 Virginia. I have worked as a chemist, and now I 

6 am in education research and have written the 

7 book, Climate Controversy 2013, for secondary 

8 students. And a general audience with three of 

9 our nation's top climate scientists, George 

10 Woodwell, John Abraham, and Michael McCracken. 

11 As a youth growing up in the capital city 

12 of Charleston, West Virginia, I recall happy days 

13 of playing with friends in the woods, filled with 

14 healthy streams on the mountains where I lived. 

15 The water was filled with aquatic life, turtles, 

16 frogs, fish, and a variety of plant life.

17 It was there that I first developed my 

18 understanding of an interdependence with the 

19 Earth and community. Unfortunately I was also 

20 aware and witnessed firsthand air and water 

21 pollution in the Kanawha Valley, and relentless 

22 examples of strip mining and black lung disease 

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1 cases in West Virginia, affecting my friends and 

2 neighbors with anthropogenic causes despite the 

3 EPA's best efforts.

4 While in high school my first job was 

5 with Union Carbide Chemicals in Institute, West 

6 Virginia where I worked as an industrial 

7 hygienist assistant during the summer of my 

8 junior year. I was given an ozone analyzer by 

9 company officials, and OSHA regulations to read. 

10 This involved spending considerable time 

11 taking air quality samples in the neighborhoods 

12 near the plant site. I went on to major in 

13 chemistry and later completed doctoral work in 

14 the field of higher education. So from these 

15 experiences I understood both the important roles 

16 of environmental protection and economic 

17 employment opportunity.

18 Joining today with concerned citizens 

19 across the country I ask the EPA of the United 

20 States of America to boldly lead the revelation 

21 and revolution necessary that will finally put us 

22 on a sustainable path to a hopeful climate 

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1 future. 

2 By working closely with the Occupational 

3 Safety and Health Administration, the EPA has a 

4 congressional mandate to provide regulations 

5 which are strictly enforced with inspections, 

6 investigations, and legal actions extending to 

7 the very corporate managers in industry who fail 

8 to meet the adequate standards that protect our 

9 health and environment.

10 It's not surprising that I am of firm 

11 conviction that we must take the strongest stand 

12 possible on the side of science and 

13 accountability by protecting our climate 

14 disruption outcome. Our leading climate 

15 scientists and environmentalists are now our 

16 staunchest political activists, including Jim 

17 Hansen from NASA and Bill McKibben from 350.org 

18 who I join in shouts that 80 to 90 percent 

19 reductions of fossil fuel usage and carbon 

20 emissions are the targets most warranted instead 

21 of the current modest 30 percent reductions 

22 proposed by 2030.

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1 Political debates of fossil fuel 

2 dependency continue unabated without adequate 

3 energy installations of innovative renewables. A 

4 divestment from fossil fuel and reinvestment in 

5 renewable energy sources and infrastructure is 

6 the transition that the EPA needs to encourage 

7 for all Americans to do the same. 

8 We pledge our nonpartisan support for the 

9 economic opportunity of clean air technologies. 

10 And we are with the EPA every step of the way 

11 towards this goal. Your firm commitment and 

12 effort toward U.S. global leadership and 

13 implementation of a comprehensive climate change 

14 carbon emission reduction plan for generations to 

15 come are ultimately the prerequisites for 

16 civilization as we have known it.

17 I want to believe that every EPA employee 

18 will make sure that this job gets done. Thank 

19 you.

20 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much for all 

21 three of you. 

22 Next panel is Amanda Gardner and Graham 

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1 Smith-White. And on deck is Jeff Holmstead and 

2 Mary Martin. 

3 Would you hold the mic just a little 

4 closer to you? No, right there in front of you. 

5 Thanks.

6 MS. GARDNER: My name is Amanda Gardner. 

7 I am representing the West Virginia Sierra Club 

8 Chapter, co-chair of the Energy Efficiency 

9 Campaign Team.

10 I have a double major in commercial 

11 recreation and tourism, as well as environmental 

12 sustainability. I am a member of the 

13 International Eco Tourism Society, as well as 

14 attending the International Eco Tourism and 

15 Sustainable Tourism Conference.

16 Eco tourism is responsible travel to 

17 natural areas that conserve the environment and 

18 improves the wellbeing of local people, socially, 

19 physically, and economically. 

20 Yesterday the EPA released an article in 

21 the Navajo Generating Station, which is located 

22 20 miles from the Grand Canyon. It's a 2,250 

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1 megawatt coal fired plant within the Navajo 

2 Nation. 

3 As stated in yesterday's article the 

4 Grand Canyon attracts more than 4.4 million 

5 people and provides 7,400 jobs. And those 4.4 

6 million people spend about $467 million.

7 The EPA plans to reduce emissions by 80 

8 percent. This is said to reduce the visual 

9 impairment by 73 percent. As stated in 

10 yesterday's article the EPA regional 

11 administrator for Pacific Southwest said, this 

12 flexible and practical solution will also 

13 generate critical tribal revenues, improve public 

14 health, provide long-term certainty to power and 

15 water utilities, and set the stage for a 

16 transition to a clean future.

17 So the Clean Power Plan only makes sense. 

18 You said so yourself. 

19 MR. SMITH-WHITE: Thank you for taking 

20 the time to listen to the public with these

21 meetings. My name is Graham Smith-White, and I 

22 am here before you today in a variety of roles, 

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1 as an artist, as a leader in West Virginia 

2 communities concerned with energy and the 

3 environment, as a real world example, and most 

4 importantly as a supporter of the Clean Power 

5 Plan.

6 Through my professional music career I 

7 have firsthand experience evaluating the carbon 

8 emissions of my activities. I power my recording 

9 equipment with solar energy and have taken steps 

10 to be as efficient with my energy needs and usage 

11 as I can.

12 I have ridden my bicycle from West 

13 Virginia to perform here in D.C. and at Wolftrap 

14 National Park. I have performed and recorded at 

15 mountaintop removal sites, pristine highland 

16 streams, national parks, and nature preserves. 

17 I have, through my creative practice, 

18 developed an understanding of the nature and 

19 level of attention involved in conscious changes 

20 in energy production. 

21 It is not simple, but it is not hard. 

22 Clean renewable energy sources provide reliable 

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1 and effective every time I use them. Any protest 

2 to the difficulty of acting in a conscious and 

3 intentional manner regarding energy production 

4 is, in my experience, borne of laziness and 

5 disregard for consequence. And I urge the EPA 

6 not to accept laziness as a reason for the 

7 production of power to be exempted, from acting 

8 responsibly and respectfully with regards to the 

9 pollution of our air.

10 The targets proposed in the Clean Power 

11 Plan are reasonable and achievable. As a 

12 community leader in West Virginia I am involved 

13 in a myriad of endeavors related to energy use 

14 and production in the state. 

15 As has already been noted by the EPA, 

16 efforts are already underway to improve the 

17 efficiency of buildings in the public and private 

18 realm. There is strong interest in renewable 

19 energy sources despite a glaring lack of support 

20 from public entities and utilities. There is so 

21 much interest that we have taken matters into our 

22 own hands with the development of innovative 

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1 community approaches, to financing, including 

2 incentivized demand side response and cooperative 

3 solar purchasing groups.

4 The benefits of clean renewable energy 

5 sources and genuine energy efficiency programs 

6 are many. Resilient stable local electricity 

7 grids serve the needs of communities in remote, 

8 wild, and wonderful reaches of the state. 

9 In these areas power outages are frequent 

10 and impact such diverse areas as food pantries, 

11 water supplies, and medical needs.

12 Distributed energy generation is uniquely 

13 suited as an ideal power source for many 

14 residents of West Virginia. In addition the 

15 pollution created by carbon intensive energy 

16 sources impacts the health of rural and urban 

17 communities from all stages from extraction to 

18 production. 

19 The mines poison water and ecosystems, 

20 and the smoke stacks spew respiratory illness on 

21 young and old alike. Clean emission free energy 

22 serves to support the overall wellness of 

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1 communities throughout West Virginia and the rest 

2 of the nation through economic befits as well.

3 Renewable energy and energy efficiency 

4 are growing areas of employment, surpassing 

5 fossil fuels and continuing to increase faster 

6 than the national average. 

7 I have one of these jobs created by the 

8 renewable energy adaption. I work for a company 

9 based in West Virginia selling solar 

10 installations across the country. I spend my day 

11 investigating the installation of clean energy 

12 for homes and businesses. This experience has 

13 shown me that leadership and adoption is in the 

14 hands of the states. They are the leaders in the 

15 programs, which lead to the adoption by the 

16 public, as well as utilities.

17 There are many models to encourage 

18 renewable energy adoption to meet emission 

19 requirements and it is a matter of will that they 

20 are instituted. Thank you.

21 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

22 Jeff Holmstead and Mary Martin. 

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1 And on deck is Congressman Eshoo.

2 MR. HOLMSTEAD: Hello. My name is Jeff 

3 Holmstead and I'm testifying today on behalf of 

4 the Electricity Reliability Coordinating Council. 

5 I'm going to go off script so I'll start my timer 

6 to make sure I don't use up more time than 

7 necessary.

8 I just, having been here most of the 

9 morning, I want to make kind of three basic 

10 points. First, I do think it is important that 

11 we reduce greenhouse gas emissions. But I think 

12 we also need to be honest about what that means. 

13 There is no free lunch. And it will increase the 

14 cost of power, and we just need to be honest with 

15 each other about that. There certainly will be 

16 jobs created in renewable energy sectors and 

17 other places, but there will be jobs lost in 

18 other sectors. And most importantly we increase 

19 the cost of electricity to everybody.

20 We just need to decide as a society how 

21 much we want to pay for that. So my point, 

22 number one is I think we need to be honest.

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1 The second thing is, I believe that this 

2 proposal is actually like -- well, almost 

3 certainly to delay any serious effort to reduce 

4 greenhouse gas emissions in the United States and 

5 I say that for three reasons.

6 First of all the Supreme Court has made 

7 it quite clear that EPA does have authority to 

8 regulate Co2 emissions and greenhouse gas 

9 emissions under the Clean Air Act. But the 

10 Supreme Court has not given EPA a roving mandate 

11 to do whatever it thinks best. 

12 In a recent case the Supreme Court again 

13 reminded EPA that anything it does to reduce 

14 greenhouse gases must fit within the statutory 

15 structure. 

16 The provision that EPA is now relying on 

17 is very clearly designed to get individual plants 

18 to reduce their emission rates. That's the way 

19 it's been used for almost 40 years. That's the 

20 only way to read the statute. 

21 And by adopting this very aggressive and 

22 expansive interpretation of its own power the 

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1 courts are almost certainly likely to strike that 

2 down. So people will spend an enormous amount of 

3 time and effort trying to figure out and comment 

4 on this proposal. And at the end of the day it 

5 is highly unlikely that it will ever be 

6 implemented.

7 That's bad for a couple of reasons. One, 

8 the only effective way, the only legally 

9 plausible way to deal with this is through new 

10 legislation, and right now many people who are 

11 supportive of this proposal are not engaged in 

12 that discussion at all. And so this proposal as 

13 it plays out over several years through the 

14 courts and elsewhere will effectively ensure that 

15 there's no legislative discussion about the 

16 things that we ought to be doing.

17 And then finally, EPA I'm afraid, has 

18 become so distracted by the notion that it can 

19 fundamentally change the electricity system in 

20 all 50 states, or at least 49 states, that it 

21 still hasn't done the technical work that will be 

22 necessary to develop legally sound regulations to 

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1 reduce carbon emissions from existing power 

2 plants. Unfortunately there's not that kind of 

3 analysis in this rule, even with building block 

4 no. 1. 

5 So what I would encourage EPA to do at 

6 the very least, is to actually do the technical 

7 work that is necessary to determine for different 

8 sizes and types of plants, what is the carbon 

9 emission rate that can reasonably be achieved as 

10 opposed to simply assuming that everybody can 

11 achieve a six percent reduction.

12 I am also concerned, and I think we 

13 should all be concerned about the reliability 

14 risks that are created by the proposal. It does 

15 need to be carefully analyzed before anything 

16 like this is adopted. EPA's proposal clearly 

17 increases the risk that our electricity supply 

18 will be less reliable.

19 I think even EPA's own analysis suggests 

20 that roughly a third of the generation fleet will 

21 be retired between 2020 and 2030. These plants

22 current provide electricity that sustain our 

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1 economy, and when they are shuttered our 

2 electricity supply will be dependent much more on 

3 EPA's predictions about energy efficiency and the 

4 ability to construct new generating sources, but 

5 also natural gas pipelines and transmission 

6 lines.

7 And as far as I can tell EPA has not made 

8 any serious attempt to consider the practical and 

9 legal difficulty of getting all the approvals 

10 necessary to build not only new power plants, but 

11 also the transmission lines and pipelines that 

12 will be necessary for those plants. 

13 And obviously the big concern is without 

14 the transmission lines and the pipelines and the 

15 new generating facilities, another polar vortex 

16 or heat wave may expose people who are most 

17 vulnerable to energy shortages and blackouts. 

18 EPA claims that it has looked at the 

19 reliability impacts. But EPA doesn't have 

20 expertise in this area, and as far as I can tell 

21 there has been no consultation between EPA and 

22 those who really are responsible for reliability, 

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1 especially those at FERC.

2 So in closing I again urge everyone in 

3 this room to just be honest about what it will 

4 take to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and 

5 hopefully to get on with the hard work that needs 

6 to be done to do something productive in 

7 Congress, and even at EPA by using the authority 

8 it has to reduce carbon emissions from individual 

9 power plants. Thank you.

10 MS. MARTIN: Good morning. My name is 

11 Mary Martin. I'm here on behalf of the U.S. 

12 Chamber of Commerce. The Chamber is the world's 

13 largest business federation representing the 

14 interests of more than 3 million businesses of 

15 all sizes, sectors, and regions, as well as state 

16 and local chambers and industry associations. 

17 The Chamber and its members continue to 

18 review and analyze the EPA's voluminous proposal 

19 to regulate greenhouse gas emissions from 

20 existing electric generating units under Section 

21 111D of the Clean Air Act. The Chamber certainly 

22 has concerns about the impact of the proposed 

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1 regulation on the affordability and reliability 

2 of electricity in this country, the EPA's 

3 authority to promulgate such a regulation and the 

4 feasibility and achievability of the regulation.

5 With the limited time afforded today, 

6 however, I'm going to focus on a few key concerns 

7 that the Chamber has with the rulemaking process 

8 associated with this proposed regulation.

9 First, the Chamber believes that the EPA 

10 is failing to satisfy its statutory obligations 

11 under the Regulatory Flexibility Act by not 

12 convening a small business advocacy review panel 

13 for this proposed regulation. Taking a myopic 

14 view the EPA claims in the proposal that the 

15 quote, "Emissions guidelines established under 

16 Clean Air Act, Section 111D, do not impose any 

17 requirements on regulated entities and thus will 

18 not have a significant economic impact upon a 

19 substantial number of small entities."

20 A proposed regulation like the EPA's 

21 Clean Power Plan is tailor made for an RFA 

22 analysis. As EPA itself admits electricity 

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1 prices, which are one of the largest concerns of 

2 small businesses will go up as a result of this 

3 proposal. In fact energy costs are one of the 

4 top three business expenses for 35 percent of 

5 small businesses. 

6 In addition to energy costs there is a 

7 possibility that small businesses could be called 

8 upon to shoulder some of the compliance burden 

9 for this proposal. If individual states choose 

10 to go beyond EGUs to achieve emissions reductions 

11 under the proposal, small businesses, 

12 particularly industrial and manufacturing 

13 facilities, could be faced with the expenses 

14 associated with reducing emissions. 

15 These are all issues that the EPA should 

16 be exploring and analyzing through the RFA, and a 

17 small business advocacy review panel.

18 Second, the Chamber has serious concerns 

19 about the timeline that the EPA is imposing in 

20 this rulemaking process, based solely upon the 

21 magnitude and breadth of the proposed regulation, 

22 the comment period should be extended by at least 

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1 60 days.

2 Additionally, there should be more time 

3 in the process for states to understand the 

4 complexities of an extremely technical rule that 

5 goes beyond traditional environmental regulation 

6 and delves into the world of energy generation 

7 and distribution.

8 One suggestion is that the EPA sponsor 

9 technical workshops for the states in order to 

10 address their questions about the realities of 

11 implementing the proposed rule. The states also 

12 should be given more time to develop and submit 

13 their state implementation plans. According to 

14 the Environmental Council of States, states 

15 implement approximately 96 percent of all 

16 delegated federal environmental programs.

17 Against that backdrop the amount of money 

18 awarded to states by the Federal Government has 

19 been reduced from $5 billion in fiscal year 2010, 

20 to $3.6 billion in fiscal year 2013. This means 

21 that states are being asked to do more and more 

22 with fewer and fewer resources when it comes to 

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1 federal environmental programs like the Clean 

2 Power Plan. 

3 We, the regulated community recognize and 

4 appreciate the fact that states are carrying such 

5 a huge burden and doing so with shrinking 

6 resources. The EPA should make a similar 

7 recognition and at least give states more time to 

8 work with key stakeholders like the business 

9 community and tribes to develop state 

10 implementation plans for this proposal. 

11 Third, the EPA's cost benefit analysis 

12 for this proposed regulation is troublesome. The 

13 EPA continues to justify a regulation with 

14 benefits that are derived not from the pollutant 

15 that EPA cites as the justification for 

16 promulgating the regulation, but from pollutants 

17 incidentally produced by the primary regulatory 

18 requirements.

19 For example, under the state compliance 

20 approach, the EPA estimates that the climate 

21 benefits in 2020 are expected to be approximately 

22 $18 billion, while the health co-benefits are 

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1 estimated to be $17 to $40 billion. 

2 The EPA's cost benefit analysis is also 

3 problematic because it is based in part upon 

4 social costs of carbon estimates which have not 

5 gone through a rulemaking process or been subject 

6 to the rigors of notice, public comment, and peer 

7 review.

8 Finally, the EPA persists in its failure 

9 to consider in any significant way the employment 

10 impacts of Clean Air Act regulations like this 

11 one. The agency did not use a whole economy 

12 modeling approach here, which would have captured 

13 a much more accurate picture of the likely job 

14 losses from this proposal. 

15 The EPA also continues to avoid 

16 undertaking an employment analysis under Section 

17 321A of the Clean Air Act, which requires the 

18 continuous review of potential job losses and 

19 shifts in employment due to the implementation of 

20 the act. 

21 These are but a few of the Chamber's 

22 concerns with the EPA's proposed clean power 

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1 plan. We hope that the EPA will give full and 

2 thoughtful consideration to these concerns and 

3 suggestions. Thank you for your time today.

4 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Next 

5 panel is Congresswoman Eshoo and S. Dear Schramm6 Satayathun. And on deck, while they're getting 

7 set, is John Novak and Amanda Jo Divita.

8 I note for people, I mentioned this 

9 before; we will take a break at noon. So that 

10 gives us almost half an hour. So we'll hear from 

11 a number of other speakers until then and then 

12 give everybody a break for an hour.

13 Congresswoman. Good morning.

14 MS. ESHOO: Good morning. Thank you very 

15 much. My name is Ana Eshoo and I have the 

16 privilege of representing California's 18th 

17 Congressional District, a very distinguished 

18 district, the home of Silicon Valley, Stamford 

19 University. And I want to thank you, Mr. Powers, 

20 Ms. Stevens, Mr. Bryson, for giving people across 

21 our country the opportunity to comment on the 

22 Clean Power Plan. And I consider it an honor to 

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1 testify in support of the proposal today in this 

2 very beautiful room, which I don't recall being 

3 in before, but it's very beautiful.

4 I think that no matter where we are, 

5 whatever the new sources are of the day, that 

6 there is a story that is informing us of the 

7 effects of climate change, in some way, shape, or 

8 form. Communities across our country, 

9 communities across the world.

10 We're experiencing the effects daily and 

11 at an accelerating rate. In the United States 

12 we're experiencing the hottest year on record, 

13 the hottest years, plural. Not just singular, 

14 but plural. And the most severe floods, 

15 wildfires, and droughts in modern history.

16 My home state of California is currently 

17 facing an unprecedented drought, which is 

18 threatening the most productive agricultural 

19 valley in the entire world, the San Joaquin 

20 Valley. 

21 We also know that what we humans are 

22 doing is causing this global change. The total 

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1 U.S. carbon emissions per year now are 5.4 

2 billion tons. That's with a B. It takes one's 

3 breath away. And $136 billion was spent, 

4 appropriated by the Congress, we had to, between 

5 2011 and 2013, for disaster relief. I would 

6 consider that a $400 tax per household per year 

7 for every American. And it will continue, 

8 whether one believes in science or not, in the 

9 House, in the Senate, you still have to go to the 

10 floor and vote for these appropriations because 

11 there is a demand to help heal and help these 

12 communities recover.

13 So I'm speaking in support today as a 20 

14 years veteran of House Energy and Commerce 

15 Committee of this major initiative that I think 

16 can make a positive impact and really create a 

17 legacy to change the ominous direction we're 

18 headed in. 

19 Power plants account for 40 percent of 

20 U.S. carbon emissions today. And so to 

21 effectively address climate change we have to 

22 limit the amount of carbon emitted. And by 

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1 reducing the greenhouse gas emissions by 30 

2 percent by 2030, which is in this plan, the power 

3 plan has the potential to yield, I think, untold 

4 technological innovation, and I know that my 

5 district continues not only to be poised, but to 

6 produce them, to improve public health, to 

7 bolster our economic growth, and most importantly 

8 advance the reversal of these changes that we're 

9 witness to.

10 The economic case, I think, is 

11 compelling. The EPA's analysis indicates that 

12 the Clean Power Plan will have climate and health 

13 benefits of $55 to $93 billion by 2030. That's a 

14 lot of money. That's even a lot of money when 

15 you're here amidst the federal government. And 

16 the cost, between $7 and $8 billion.

17 But beyond the plan's benefits on paper, 

18 I think the true benefit is to send a signal to 

19 investors and the rest of the world that 

20 America's clean energy economy is here to stay. 

21 There is significant job creation that's also 

22 within reach. Today the solar energy employees

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1 over 140,000 Americans with over half being 

2 installer jobs which cannot be outsourced. So 

3 there's a built-in wonderful benefit to this. 

4 This industry experienced a 20 percent job growth 

5 in 2013. Ten times the national average.

6 If we put the Clean Power Plan in place 

7 these homegrown job numbers will continue to go 

8 up. 

9 Now some argue that this plan is 

10 government overreach. I hear that daily on a lot 

11 of fronts. In fact the Supreme Court has upheld 

12 the authority of the EPA to regulate carbon 

13 emissions on three separate occasions since 2007. 

14 And before this plan was even released some 

15 argued it would cost hundreds of thousands of 

16 jobs, result in skyrocketing electricity prices, 

17 and I think they just left out that the sky would 

18 cave in.

19 But the EPA has found that the plan will 

20 cost modest increases in electricity prices in 

21 the short-term, and over the long run will result 

22 in lower electricity bills for consumers. It 

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1 certainly will result in lower appropriations, 

2 fewer appropriated dollars in supplemental 

3 emergency legislation because of the ravages of 

4 what the emissions are causing.

5 And according to a Washington Post ABC 

6 News poll, 70 percent of Americans support this 

7 plan. So even when consumers are told that their 

8 electricity bills may go up some, they still 

9 believe that this needs to be addressed.

10 I'll close with this; I have always 

11 thought that America is the best idea that was 

12 ever born. And when we look at the pages of 

13 history and see the challenges that we have met 

14 in centuries that have gone before, we have 

15 always been willing to not only take on the 

16 challenge, but to conquer it. I believe we have 

17 the science, I believe we have the will of the 

18 American people, I think that the law is on our 

19 side, and that we have a plan for our future that 

20 is needed and should be adopted.

21 Thank you for the honor of being able to 

22 present to you today.

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1 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. 

2 MR. SCHRAMM-SATAYATHUM: Good morning. 

3 My name is Dear Schramm, and I am the Manager of 

4 Environmental Affairs with Wabash Valley Power. 

5 Wabash Valley Power is a generation 

6 entrance mission cooperative that serves 26 

7 locally owned electricity distribution 

8 cooperatives in the northern half of Indiana, as 

9 well as portions of Illinois and Missouri. 

10 Those distribution coops in turn serve 

11 the rural portions of 82 counties. On average 

12 electricity cooperatives serve a membership with

13 a lower median household income level and higher 

14 unemployment rates than their investor owned 

15 utility counterparts. A fact that is absolutely 

16 true of our members.

17 Rural areas of our state are much slower 

18 to realize an economic recovery, and with that 

19 the income and employment levels are also slower 

20 to recover. 

21 Wabash Valley Power's mission is to 

22 deliver affordable reliable electricity, yet 

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1 EPA's proposal to regulate carbon emissions from 

2 existing power plants, as well as the EPA 

3 proposals for modified and reconstructed power 

4 plants poses significant threat to the 

5 pocketbooks of our members. By allowing a longer 

6 ramping up phase electricity cooperatives can 

7 better prepare for fuel and technology 

8 developments necessary to meet these standards.

9 In addition to the changes required by 

10 electricity utilities like Wabash Valley Power, 

11 an extended ramping up timeline will provide 

12 greater economic recovery for the communities we 

13 serve. This will in turn help our members who 

14 are also consumers, better prepare to manage the 

15 unavoidable increases in their electric costs.

16 Wabash Valley is providing rate comments 

17 on a more technical nature, however I'd like to 

18 take this time to highlight a few of our 

19 concerns.

20 The unit of measurement for this proposed

21 rule, pounds of carbon dioxide per net megawatt 

22 hours is of particular difficulty for us and I 

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1 believe other utilities. By imposing limits 

2 based on net megawatt hours instead of the more 

3 traditional gross megawatt hours, power plants 

4 must deduct the power used to run the facility, 

5 also dubbed as parasitic load.

6 This appears to be the first time 

7 emissions are being measured as net, instead of 

8 gross. This change also makes it more difficult 

9 for electric utilities to collaborate with their 

10 fellow state utilities to meet the state goals, 

11 which is another wrinkle in the EPA proposed 

12 rule. By using a net measurement each plant must 

13 be able to quantify its parasitic load now, and 

14 then predict it for future compliance purposes.

15 However, this would be further 

16 complicated with the recently finalized 316B rule 

17 that regulates the intake of cooling -- of water 

18 for cooling purposes, which also effects natural 

19 gas plants. 

20 As you're familiar, under 316B, a power 

21 plant would need to limit its impact on aquatic 

22 biota after several years of study. The result 

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1 could be to add a new cooling tower or the like, 

2 which in turn would add more parasitic load. 

3 This results in higher carbon dioxide emissions 

4 from a plant, not because the increased carbon 

5 dioxide -- that carbon dioxide emissions output 

6 is -- not because of the increase the carbon 

7 dioxide from the from the stack, but because the 

8 net megawatt hour number is smaller on the 

9 denominator side of the equation.

10 All the regulations proposed and/or 

11 finalized within the past five years create 

12 uncertainty for our industry and our members. 

13 Our basic question as each regulation is 

14 proposed or finalized is, should we invest in our 

15 current fleet? Should we build something new? 

16 Or should we go to the market for our power. 

17 This is really difficult to answer. 

18 Casper and Max were finalized in 2011, 

19 but the recarbon dioxide regulations and power 

20 plants were most recently proposed in 2013 and 

21 2014. The proposed rule to define waters of the 

22 U.S. is currently under a public comment period. 

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1 316B was finalized a few months ago, and we 

2 expect the regulation for coal combustion 

3 residuals will be finalized at the end of the 

4 year. The amendments for startup, shutdown, and 

5 malfunction events are revisions to ethyl

6 limitation guidelines for EGUs or electric 

7 generating units, to be finalized next year. 

8 It is nearly impossible for electric 

9 utilities to adequately prepare for each of 

10 these, let alone the sum of these proposals. 

11 We thank you for giving us 120 days to 

12 submit comments, however, it's still not adequate 

13 time for all stakeholders to fully grasp and 

14 develop the necessary plans for complying with 

15 EPA's proposal for existing power plants. 

16 For example, the building blocks 

17 reference in the proposal are based on areas that 

18 are outside the purview of at least the Indiana 

19 Department of Environmental Management, or IDEM.

20 For example, I'm not sure that all plants 

21 or fleets can hit the six percent on average heat 

22 rate efficiency which could possibly trigger the 

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1 reconstruction and modification rule. IDEM does 

2 not have dispatch authority as referenced in 

3 building block 2, yet MISO and PJM do. 

4 With regard to building block 3, states 

5 with renewable portfolios tie them to power 

6 consumption rather than power generation. This 

7 appears to be a disconnect. 

8 Finally, it does not have authority over 

9 energy efficiency programs as mentioned in 

10 building block 4. In Indiana, at least, energy 

11 efficiency programs were under the governor's

12 authority, although his office had recently 

13 announced that this program would be eliminated 

14 in 2015.

15 Even if these building blocks could be 

16 managed under the authority of IURC or Indiana 

17 Utility Regulatory Commission instead of IDEM, 

18 cooperatives such as Wabash Valley Power and its 

19 26 member cooperatives are not under IURC 

20 purview. So can you see the difficulty or IDEM? 

21 I'm sure other states may be in the same boat.

22 Please do not be mistaken, we do share 

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1 EPA's concerns for a clean energy future. And a 

2 state without renewable energy mandates Wabash 

3 Valley Power is far ahead of the curve in 

4 diversifying its fuel sources, thus significantly 

5 reducing our reliance on coal, and we've done so 

6 voluntarily and economically.

7 We encourage EPA to take these human 

8 considerations in effect. We've taken thoughtful 

9 and proactive steps to protect the environment 

10 and our members, both present and future. Thank 

11 you.

12 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Noting 

13 that it's quarter of 12:00 I'm going to announce 

14 the -- so the next panel is John Novak and Amanda 

15 Jo Divitia, and then one more speaker, Andre 

16 Sauvageot. 

17 MS. SAUVAGEOT: I'm here.

18 MR. POWERS: Okay. You will be next. 

19 And then sorry for anybody who is waiting that 

20 thought they'd make it by lunch. We'll take a 

21 break and start precisely at 1:00, after these 

22 three speakers. 

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1 MR. NOVAK: Who would you like to go 

2 first?

3 MR. POWERS: I've got your name on top of 

4 the card, so go ahead.

5 MR. NOVAK: Okay. Good morning. I'm 

6 John Novak, head of the Environmental Issues Team 

7 at the National Rural Electric Cooperative 

8 Association. 

9 NRECA is a national service organization 

10 or more than 900 not for profit rural electric 

11 utilities that provide electric energy to over 42 

12 million people in 47 states, and 12 percent of 

13 America's electric consumers. 

14 More than any rule currently on the books 

15 the proposed Clean Power Plan for Existing 

16 Sources will allow the Environmental Protection 

17 Agency to fundamentally alter the way that 

18 electricity is generated and the way that 

19 Americans use electricity. We don't believe that 

20 is EPA's job.

21 The ramifications from EPA's proposal 

22 will be felt all the way from the generating 

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1 plant to the toaster. The EPA's energy plan goes 

2 too far, too fast, jeopardizing the wellbeing of 

3 millions of American families in the process. 

4 Simply put, the EPA's proposal will trigger high

5 prices for many consumers and local businesses.

6 America's electric cooperatives serve 

7 more than 90 percent of the persistent poverty 

8 counties across the nation, the same communities 

9 that are put at most risk by the EPA.

10 While EPA acknowledged America's not for

11 profit member owned electric cooperatives are 

12 different than most utilities, EPA's proposal 

13 doesn't provide a workable solution to address 

14 cooperatives' unique circumstances. Co-ops are 

15 small, consumer owned, heavily reliant on coal, 

16 and our not for profit status limits financial 

17 flexibility. All of our costs are passed on to 

18 our consumer owners.

19 Should a state choose to reduce the 

20 burden on cooperatives, under EPA's approach a 

21 state would need to increase the burden on other 

22 utility providers, since the state still must 

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1 meet the EPA's goal. We are not asking for 

2 relief at the expense of others. The solution is 

3 for EPA to rework their assumptions and set 

4 reasonable and achievable state goals. 

5 Cooperatives have a proven record of both 

6 supporting the environment and following a true 

7 all of the above energy policy that has provided 

8 affordable and reliable electricity for our 

9 consumer members. Since 2009 electric 

10 cooperatives have doubled their renewable energy 

11 capacity and have made long term investments in 

12 wind, solar, and hydro energy production. 

13 Unfortunately EPA's proposal slams the door on an 

14 all of the above strategy, handpicking winners 

15 and losers and driving coal generation out of the 

16 mix.

17 The proposal will likely result in the 

18 premature closure of a number of power plants 

19 owned by electric cooperatives, placing even 

20 greater financial burdens on the cooperatives and 

21 the consumers who own them. Many of these plants 

22 were built when our national policy encouraged 

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1 the use of coal as a domestic resource, and co2 ops have invested billions of dollars since then 

3 on environmental controls. These plants have a 

4 useful life that extends well beyond 2030. 

5 Cooperatives have played by the rules but 

6 moving the goalpost again, like this proposal 

7 would do, will result in stranded assets and 

8 premature shut downs. For co-ops this outcome is 

9 unreasonable, unjustifiable, and arbitrary. 

10 The way we see it, only heat rate 

11 efficiency improvements under the first of EPA's 

12 building blocks is lawful under the Clean Air Act 

13 to set the standard. EPA then exceeds its legal 

14 authority with three of the four building blocks. 

15 EPA essentially adopts a standard that cannot be 

16 met at the power plant which forces states to 

17 adopt environmental dispatch, renewable portfolio 

18 standards, and end use efficiency standards to 

19 meet their emissions targets.

20 Under EPA's proposal, in order to 

21 implement the fourth building block, co-ops and 

22 consumer owners would have to spend billions on 

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1 energy efficiency. Co-ops support energy 

2 efficiency and have programs ranging from energy 

3 audits to appliance rebates to automobile

4 financing programs.

5 But the level of investment here may well 

6 go beyond the abilities of our consumer owners 

7 and co-ops to afford, given our demographics. As 

8 we said before, many of our consumer owners fall 

9 below the average income level, and 93 percent of 

10 the persistent poverty counties in the U.S. are 

11 served by electric cooperatives.

12 Since the 1930s co-ops have provided 

13 safe, affordable, and reliable electricity to 

14 rural America, and with it economic 

15 opportunities. EPA's proposal directly threatens 

16 these gains and is the wrong approach. 

17 Already tens of thousands of our 

18 consumers from both sides of the aisle have made 

19 their voices heard against this proposal. I'm 

20 proud to add my voice on behalf of the 42 million 

21 Americans served by electric cooperatives. 

22 Please go back to the drawing board. 

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1 Thank you.

2 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

3 MS. DIVITA: Hello.

4 MR. POWERS: Hello.

5 MS. DIVITA: My name is Amanda Jo Divita. 

6 I am a resident of West Virginia and a mother to 

7 the two very patient children waiting by the door 

8 over there. 

9 I'm from Southern West Virginia. That's 

10 often times know as the coal field area of West 

11 Virginia. My father is a miner. His father was 

12 a miner, going back at least seven generations on 

13 each side of my family that we're aware of.

14 I'm part of the first generation in my 

15 family to not work for a coal company. We have 

16 historically been a state of very little 

17 opportunity and very few options. 

18 Where I come from environmental pollution 

19 from coal plants is not just something we hear 

20 people argue about on the news. It's not an idea 

21 or a distant issue that we think about and put 

22 away. It's an issue that we deal with on a daily 

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1 basis. We wear it on our clothes, we drink it in 

2 our water, we breathe it in our lungs.

3 And the pollution in my state is in large 

4 part due to the way that we keep our lights on. 

5 Coal. If you are from Southern West Virginia you 

6 either live near a mine, a coal fired power 

7 plant, or a coal processing plant. We are 

8 surrounded by coal.

9 Coal fired power plants make up 95 

10 percent of the energy generation in West 

11 Virginia. Fifty years ago that would not have 

12 been such an embarrassment. Today we know that 

13 there are better options. Clean energy in West 

14 Virginia would reduce our carbon footprint, 

15 reduce our unemployment rate, and reduce the 

16 amount of money we spend on health care. 

17 It would give us the options that we have 

18 been lacking in the past. Clean energy would 

19 allow us to work jobs that didn't put our 

20 families in danger from environmental pollution. 

21 Jobs that wouldn't have such a terrible impact on 

22 the beautiful landscape of our state.

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1 I promise you, you will find a hard time 

2 finding anyone in West Virginia that wouldn't 

3 trade that coal power plant in their back yard 

4 for a wind turbine or a solar installation. I 

5 would much rather have a hydro-electric dam in my 

6 river than 1,000 tons of coal slurry. 

7 We now have technology in place to make 

8 life in our state better. We do no longer have 

9 to rely on the coal companies to give us jobs or 

10 to give us power. There are better options for 

11 us.

12 What we're asking for now is simple. We 

13 want to live healthier lives. We want to breathe 

14 cleaner air. And we want jobs that help us stay 

15 in our communities, and we want those jobs to not 

16 endanger the lives of those of us that live 

17 there. We need a plan.

18 The Clean Power Plan is a very small 

19 step, but it is a step in the right direction. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Andre 

22 Sauvageot.

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1 MS. SAUVAGEOT: You said it right.

2 MR. POWERS: And let's see if we can get 

3 two more folks in before the end of this 

4 particular session. Bruce Burton and Nancy Kunz5 Merry. Are you both still here?

6 MR. BURTON: Yes.

7 MR. POWERS: As long as I didn't screw up 

8 anybody -- okay. We'll get you in too. 

9 Yes, sir.

10 MS. SAUVAGEOT: Well, first thanks a lot 

11 for Environment Virginia for arranging this with 

12 EPA, and thank you all for receiving me.

13 I'm Andre Sauvageot, and I'm a Colonel

14 U.S. Army retired, but I am now actively engaged 

15 as a partner for the Interstate Traveling 

16 Company, LLC. base in Detroit. And this company 

17 can contribute directly to the goals of the Clean 

18 Power Plan. I tell you in a minute.

19 Now there's no morally acceptable reason 

20 to deny the overwhelming scientific consensus

21 that global warming is a grave danger to human 

22 health, the economy, and even to life itself. 

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1 But let's just talk a minute about the near term 

2 to midterm antics of uncontrolled global warming, 

3 and let's talk about business first, since I'm a 

4 business man.

5 The former Treasury Secretary, Robert E. 

6 Rubin recently citing a study called Risky 

7 Business, a formal study on how the climate 

8 change could, in his words, sink the U.S. 

9 Economy. Full stop.

10 By 2050, oh about -- well, some place 

11 between $48 and $68 billion worth of proposed in 

12 just two states, Louisiana and Florida, would be 

13 at great risk of flooding because they're going 

14 to be below sea level. The bottom line for the 

15 whole thing. Viewed from an economic perspective 

16 the cost of inaction will greatly exceed the cost 

17 of moving away from fossil fuels. We have to do 

18 it.

19 Now, what's the long term threat then? 

20 Well, it's existential, because rising sea levels 

21 flooding coastal cities in many countries can 

22 spawn domestic unrest, even civil war, and even 

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1 later wars between and among nation states as 

2 they scramble and compete for scarce clean water

3 and other resources.

4 Now, there's a very interesting U.N. 

5 Climate change, new report, came out in June. 

6 And they say that to avoid these wars we actually 

7 have to limit the rise of temperature, global 

8 temperatures, to not more than two degrees 

9 Celsius, or 3.5 Fahrenheit. We have to do that 

10 by the end of the century. 

11 For example, greenhouse gas emissions 

12 will have to drop from 40 to 70 percent by 2050, 

13 and then even more, oh to nearly zero by the end 

14 of the century. Wow. 

15 Emissions -- and they grew more quickly 

16 in the decade between the year 2000 and 2010, 

17 than in the previous three decades. It's going 

18 to be quite a challenge. Big shifts are 

19 required. 

20 And so the Clean Power Plan that we're 

21 here to discuss, I'd like to say from the 

22 standpoint of my company, is bold and yet 

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1 inadequate. The President's decision to reduce 

2 carbon emissions by 30 percent by 2030 is 

3 politically courageous, commendable, and yet 

4 inadequate, not his fault. But it's simply a 

5 fact that that alone, even if done perfectly, 

6 will not meet those statistics I gave you before. 

7 And also, there's another reason. The 

8 United States alone, no matter what we do, can't 

9 meet the world requirements because we get other 

10 -- we have to get other nations like China and 

11 India particularly to buy in.

12 Now I'd just like to mention that we --

13 our company, I said, we can help. We don't have 

14 to talk about our high level or anything. That's 

15 kind of far out. But in the immediate future, 

16 almost today, with EPA's help or some council, 

17 we're in discussions already with the largest 

18 power plant -- one of the largest power plants in 

19 the United States. The company has assigned one 

20 of their high level executives to discuss our 

21 concept for turning turbines in, you know, coal 

22 plants closing now in Indiana and other states, 

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1 we want to turn those turbines with clean safe 

2 green renewable produced hydrogen. That, sir, is 

3 what we are discussing now with a power plant. I 

4 won't disclose who today because we don't have 

5 permission yet. But just, we need a contact at 

6 EPA to bounce some ideas off. If we could just 

7 get that, and this can be a worldwide clean air 

8 game changer to potentially replace coal and 

9 natural gas with safe green renewable energy. 

10 But we can use coal even more safely with 

11 the hydrogen fuel.

12 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Are 

13 you through? Thank you very much. Yes.

14 MS. SAUVAGEOT: Yes, sir. Thank you, 

15 sir.

16 MR. POWERS: Yes. Our final panel is 

17 Bruce Burton and Nancy Kunz-Merry. 

18 You may get to be a panel of one. 

19 Actually, Paula Jackson. 

20 MR. BURTON: I'm pulling it a little 

21 closer. Sorry for the banging. How is that?

22 MR. POWERS: Great. 

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1 MR. BURTON: Well, good morning. We're 

2 right on the cusp. It's --

3 MR. POWERS: Good morning.

4 MR. BURTON: -- morning right now. I am 

5 Bruce Burton. I am an international 

6 representative with the International Brotherhood 

7 of Electrical Workers. 

8 On behalf of the approximately 750,000 

9 active members and retirees of the IBEW, I thank 

10 you for the opportunity to testify. 

11 For the following reasons the IBEW 

12 opposes the Clean Power Plan as proposed. 

13 EPA reports the Clean Power Plan will 

14 lead to the closure of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal 

15 fired generated capacity by 2020, just six years 

16 from now. According to the Government's own 

17 figures, this will result in the loss of 52,000 

18 permanent direct jobs in the utility, rail, and 

19 coal mining sectors. In addition, closing this 

20 much coal generation will cost an additional

21 100,000 direct jobs.

22 However, EPA's numbers must be viewed 

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1 with some suspicion. During the mercury and air 

2 toxics rulemaking process EPA claimed MATS would 

3 close only 4.7 gigawatts of coal generation. The 

4 IBEW and others told EPA their number was far too 

5 rosy and MATS would close 56 gigawatts of coal.

6 It turned out we were correct. Experts 

7 now confirm that 56 gigawatts of coal generation 

8 will be lost by 2016. Taken together, MATS and 

9 the Clean Power Plan will close approximately 40 

10 percent of today's coal fleet. Gone with those 

11 plants will be approximately 400,000 American 

12 jobs at a time when our nation continues to 

13 recover from the worst recession since the Great 

14 Depression. And the national unemployment rate 

15 stands at 6.1 percent.

16 Unfortunately, given the IBEW's 

17 experience with MATS those numbers could become 

18 far worse. Closing so much coal so fast 

19 threatens the reliability of the nation's 

20 electric grid, creating the potential for 

21 widespread blackouts and brownouts during periods 

22 of peak usage. 

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1 During the recent polar vortex 90 percent 

2 of American electric powers coal plants scheduled 

3 to be closed under MATS were used to generate 

4 electricity. Pardon me. 

5 In addition PJM, a regional transmission 

6 authority operating in the Mid Atlantic and 

7 Easter Midwest reportedly came within 700 

8 megawatts of being unable to meet electricity 

9 demand. This, during one of the coldest snowiest 

10 winters on record.

11 So for all this pain the Clean Power Plan 

12 will certainly cause a large drop in Co2 

13 emissions, correct? And the answer is, no. In 

14 fact there will be almost no impact on Co2 

15 emissions that contribute to global warming. As 

16 the graph included with my testimony illustrates, 

17 and I'll leave that behind when I'm done, the 

18 problem is not with the United States.

19 U.S. Co2 emissions have been flat since 

20 1990, and are forecast to remain so through the 

21 year 2030 with or without the Clean Power Plan. 

22 The problem lies instead with our trading 

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1 partners. While U.S. emissions have remained 

2 flat, Co2 output in the rest of the world has 

3 risen approximately 44 percent since 1990, from 

4 16,000 million metric tons annually to 

5 approximately 36 million metric tons today. Our 

6 nation cannot afford to go it alone, and expect 

7 our actions will have any meaningful climate 

8 impact in a world that is using more and more 

9 coal and other fossil fuels. Unless other 

10 nations act, our efforts in the United States 

11 will be for naught.

12 Given a recent Supreme Court decision 

13 regarding the greenhouse gas permitting rule, 

14 there is reason to believe the Court will take a 

15 skeptical view of an overly expansive 

16 interpretation of EPA's authority to regulate 

17 greenhouse gases. With that in mind the IBEW 

18 recommends EPA reduce the significant impact of 

19 the Clean Power Plan by providing credit to the 

20 states that have already reduced their Co2 

21 emissions due to market driven forces such as 

22 increased natural gas use, the retirement of 

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1 older coal plants, and/or the construction of new 

2 nuclear generation. 

3 The IBEW also recommends a delay in the 

4 implementation of the Clean Power Plan to give 

5 states and utilities adequate time to implement 

6 compliance strategies. 

7 Finally, though outside the scope of this 

8 rulemaking, addressing global climate change in a 

9 meaningful way will require the full cooperation

10 of nations like China and India. Absent their 

11 commitment the Clean Power Plan will have no real 

12 benefit. Thank you very much.

13 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

14 MS. JACKSON: Thank you for holding these 

15 public hearings and for the opportunity to speak 

16 today. My name is Paula Roberts-Jackson and I am 

17 the President and CEO of the American Association 

18 of Blacks in Energy. The AABE is a national 

19 association of energy professionals founded in 

20 1977 and dedicated to ensure that 

21 African/Americans and other minorities have a 

22 voice in the development of energy policy and 

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1 related environmental issues.

2 While we as an association are still in 

3 the process of analyzing the rule and the many 

4 technical support documents, AABE has some 

5 concerns about EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. 

6 We recognize that there is no simple solution for 

7 addressing climate change with regard to 

8 greenhouse gas emissions. However, we believe 

9 any approach must be balanced, fair, and take 

10 into consideration the impact of communities, 

11 economic development, health, jobs, and the price 

12 of electricity.

13 This proposed rule is likely to increase 

14 electric power costs across the country. It will 

15 do so in part by changing the way our nation's 

16 electric generation resources are utilized to 

17 meet demand. Currently generating units are 

18 dispatched based primarily on economics to ensure 

19 that the most cost effective generating units are 

20 dispatched first.

21 This rule appears to largely eliminate 

22 economic dispatch in favor of environmental 

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1 dispatch, without regard to cost. Because it 

2 eliminates the focus on cost of energy resources, 

3 EPA's proposed carbon plan will not only increase 

4 electricity prices, which leads to higher 

5 electric bills, more expensive goods and 

6 services, and fewer jobs. And that has a 

7 disproportionate impact on those who are least 

8 able to manage those impacts. That is our small 

9 business owners, our families and individuals who 

10 are on a fixed or a low income.

11 While it's not a silver bullet, broad 

12 deployment of energy efficiency measures will be 

13 important to reduce the impact of rising utility

14 bills. AABE strongly supports energy efficiency 

15 and serves as a resource on this issue for energy 

16 consumers, especially in underserved communities.

17 But we can't do it alone. Energy 

18 efficiency measures and education must be made 

19 available to small businesses and lower fixed 

20 income families and individuals because they are 

21 the ones that will benefit the most from the 

22 energy savings. 

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1 It is important that we make progress on 

2 our climate change goals and commitments. But we 

3 must find solutions that minimize the risk of 

4 cost increases and do not heap the costs on those 

5 least able to bear them. We believe that GHG 

6 policy should not result in a net negative impact 

7 on jobs or trade balances, and that the costs of 

8 goods and services in the long term, and all 

9 sectors of the economy, and all sources of GHG 

10 should be included in initiatives to reduce these 

11 emissions.

12 We believe that policies must ensure that 

13 low and fixed income consumers do not shoulder 

14 disproportionate costs impact as a result of 

15 these efforts. And we recognize that there is no 

16 simple solution for reducing GHG emissions. The 

17 best strategy will strike a balance between cost 

18 effective emission reductions and economic 

19 growth, and prosperity for all Americans.

20 This proposal does not strike that 

21 balance. Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

22 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. With 

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1 that I'm going to declare a recess and encourage 

2 people to take a break, get some lunch. We will 

3 reconvene at 1:00, and the next person I have 

4 down on the cards is Linda Tsang. You'll be 

5 number one at 1:00. Thanks very much for coming.

6 (Lunch recess from 12:09 p.m. until 1:03 

7 p.m.)

8 MR. NIEBLING: Good afternoon. My name 

9 is William Niebling. I'm one of the chairs at 

10 today's public hearing. Thank you for coming 

11 today. 

12 Joining me on the panel this afternoon 

13 are Beth Conlin and Marguerite McLamb. We are 

14 here today to listen to your comments on two 

15 proposed rules to reduce carbon pollution from 

16 power plants. EPA announced both of these 

17 proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014. 

18 Power plants are the largest source of 

19 carbon pollution on the United States, accounting 

20 for roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse 

21 gas emissions.

22 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

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1 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

2 proposal consists of two main parts, state 

3 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

4 power plants and guidelines to help states 

5 develop their plans for meeting the goals.

6 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

7 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

8 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

9 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

10 their goals by 2030. 

11 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

12 address carbon dioxide from modified and 

13 reconstructed power plants. This rule would set 

14 emissions limits for two groups of power plants, 

15 those that make physical or operational changes 

16 that increase the plant's maximum achievable 

17 hourly rate of emissions, and those that replace 

18 components to such an extent that the new 

19 components exceed 50 percent of the capital cost 

20 of an entirely new comparable facility.

21 If you would like more details on either

22 of these proposed rules there are fact sheets 

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1 available near the registration desk. 

2 Today's hearing is one of four public 

3 hearings we are holding across the country this 

4 week on the two proposed rules. We've had 

5 tremendous interest in each of the hearings and 

6 I'd like to thank you for taking time out of your 

7 day today to join us and share your comments. 

8 We have a lot of people signed up to 

9 speak today and we want to hear from all of them, 

10 so before we get started I'd like to go through a 

11 few housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

12 help make today's hearing run smoothly.

13 First, please be sure that you have 

14 checked in at the registration desk, even if 

15 you're not planning to speak today. And if you 

16 signed up to speak online or by phone but you 

17 haven't yet told us that you're here, please step 

18 out to the registration desk and let the EPA 

19 staff there know that you arrived.

20 Second, if you are a speaker and you were 

21 given a room letter when you checked in, you 

22 should look at it, Room A or Room B. This is 

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1 Room A. Are you in the right room? If not, this 

2 is a good time to switch.

3 All right. So here's how today's hearing 

4 will work. I will call up speakers I pairs, 

5 doing my best to pronounce your names accurately. 

6 When your name is called, please come to the 

7 table at the front of the room. When I call on 

8 you to speak please state your name and spell it 

9 for the court reporter. Your comments will be 

10 transcribed and included in the record of 

11 comments on the proposed rule.

12 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

13 give comments. We have a light to help you know 

14 how much time you have left to speak. When it 

15 turns from green to yellow that means you have 

16 one minute remaining, and when it turns red 

17 that’s a signal to wrap up your testimony.

18 The light will flash red and beep when 

19 you have spoken for five minutes and it's time to 

20 stop. 

21 When you are finished speaking please 

22 remain at the table until the person next to you 

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1 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

2 to listen to you today, however a panel member 

3 may ask you questions to clarify your comments. 

4 I will then call up the next pair of speakers and 

5 so on and so forth.

6 If you have brought a written copy of 

7 your testimony please give that to the staff at 

8 the registration desk before you leave.

9 Because of the large number of people who 

10 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

11 everyone we're going to have to strictly enforce 

12 the five minute limit. If you have additional 

13 comments you would like to make you can submit 

14 them in writing. I can assure you that EPA gives 

15 just as much consideration to comments that we 

16 receive in writing as we do to comments we 

17 receive at public hearings like this one. So if 

18 you have more that you would like to say, please 

19 submit it. Your comments will be reviewed.

20 There's still plenty of time to get 

21 written comments in, and there are comment cards 

22 available at the registration desk. Comments 

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1 must be received by October 16th, 2014. We will 

2 put any written comments submitted today in the 

3 official docket for the proposed rule. 

4 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

5 other ways are available at the materials table 

6 near the registration desk.

7 We're scheduled to go until about 8:00 

8 p.m. tonight and we'll take a dinner break so 

9 that everyone can get something to eat and 

10 stretch their legs. Right now the dinner break 

11 is scheduled for 5:00.

12 We may take occasional short breaks 

13 throughout this afternoon as needed and will keep 

14 you posted as this session goes on. 

15 If you have any questions please see the 

16 staff at the registration desk and somebody will 

17 try to help you.

18 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

19 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

20 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

21 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

22 each of you. So we can do that and to be fair to 

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1 everyone we ask that everyone listen quietly. 

2 Even applause can slow things down and we want to 

3 hear from everyone who has signed up to speak.

4 Thank you again for taking the time today 

5 to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. 

6 I think we should get started.

7 The first two people I'd like to call up 

8 today are Leah Qusba and Leslie Fields. 

9 MS. QUSBA: Who should go first?

10 MR. NIEBLING: Leah, please.

11 MS. QUSBA: Okay. That's me. My name is 

12 Leah Qusba, I'm here representing the Alliance 

13 for Climate Education and also Climate Parents.

14 MR. NIEBLING: Leah, I'm sorry, can I ask 

15 you to spell your name for the court reporter?

16 MS. QUSBA: Leah, L-E-A-H, last name 

17 Qusba, Q-U-S-B-A.

18 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

19 MS. QUSBA: I testified back in November 

20 at the public hearings that the EPA hosted for 

21 the carbon standard, alongside dozens of youth 

22 leaders that I work with. And this time I 

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1 brought someone new with me. My daughter. She's 

2 actually expected to arrive in just two months. 

3 I'm an auntie five times over and I'm 

4 expecting my first child, so now more than ever 

5 I'm ready to stand up for climate solutions. 

6 As a long-time climate activist and 

7 expectant mother I'm a active member of Climate 

8 Parents. They're a national organization working 

9 to stop dirty polluting energy, and to grow kid10 safe climate-safe clean energy. 

11 I'm also the Strategic Director at the 

12 Alliance for Climate Education based out of the 

13 San Francisco Bay area. We're the leading youth 

14 climate education organization in the country and 

15 I've been working with ACE for the last five 

16 years to educate, inspire, and activate youth to 

17 create lasting climate solutions now and 

18 throughout their adult lives.

19 We work with more than 1.8 million young 

20 people across the country in about 23 states 

21 through education and leadership development. 

22 You know, over the years I've really developed a 

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1 keen insight into how young people feel about 

2 climate change and one thing is just really clear 

3 to me, they actively support bold climate 

4 solutions and immediate action to cut carbon 

5 pollution when they're presented with the dirty 

6 facts about burning coal. It's just common 

7 sense.

8 But you don't have to take my word for 

9 it. You're going to hear directly from some of 

10 those youth later today as they testify here, and 

11 they can speak for themselves and for their own 

12 generation.

13 As a soon mom to be, who is about to 

14 bring a little girl and a future climate 

15 protector into the world, I'm committed now more 

16 than ever to take action to protect my daughter, 

17 and really all kids from climate impacts like 

18 extreme weather and air pollution that's

19 exacerbating childhood asthma rates.

20 According to the American Lung 

21 Association one out of every four children under 

22 the age of 18 living in or around major U.S. 

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1 cities suffers from asthma. That's a quarter of 

2 our kids. That's just simply unacceptable for my 

3 child or for anyone else's.

4 You know, burning fossil fuels is a

5 threat to our health, our national security, and 

6 our future as a species, and that's why I'm here 

7 to support the EPA's Clean Power Plan proposed 

8 rule to regulate dangerous carbon pollution and 

9 other cancer and asthma inducing pollutants. 

10 I'm here today to urge you, the EPA, to 

11 issue an ambitious final carbon pollution 

12 standard for existing and modified sources. And 

13 as an expectant mom I've learned about all sorts 

14 of things to make sure my baby is safe. Right? 

15 From healthy organic food, making sure there's no 

16 BPA in the baby bottles. But at the end of the 

17 day the truth is, climate change is actually the 

18 greatest threat that's facing our children. And 

19 more parents across America are coming to 

20 understand this reality every day.

21 The really good news is that we can still 

22 take steps now to avoid the worst impacts of 

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1 climate change, and to not take action is 

2 actually a direct and blatant threat to our 

3 children's futures, and their children's after 

4 that.

5 You know, politicians and nonprofit 

6 leaders, elected officials, government employees, 

7 we're all parents and grandparents too, right? 

8 The duty of motherhood or fatherhood surely 

9 outweighs the pull from big energy special 

10 interests, right? 

11 That's why I'm very very hopeful that the 

12 EPA is going to listen to this call for action. 

13 And besides the clear moral obligation to protect 

14 this generation and those to come from climate 

15 change, there's also a clear economic case to be 

16 made, right? 

17 Last year alone crop losses, flood 

18 damage, wildfires, and other climate related 

19 disasters cost our country more than $140 

20 billion. And the American tax payers picked up 

21 the bulk of the costs, nearly $100 billion to the 

22 tune of about $1,100 per tax payer.

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1 The answer is simple, in the United 

2 States power plants account for about 40 percent 

3 of the carbon pollution that's driving climate 

4 change. And while we currently have public 

5 health protections with limits on arsenic, lead, 

6 mercury, soot, and other pollutions from power 

7 plants, there's no existing national limits in 

8 place for carbon pollution. It's not safe. It 

9 must change, and it needs to happen now.

10 So what about solutions? We can cut 

11 carbon by making our homes and businesses more 

12 energy efficient, energy efficiency, and 

13 America's cheapest and cleanest energy resource. 

14 These types of programs have delivered cost 

15 effective savings on an average net cost of 2.5 

16 cents per kilowatt hour, or less than half the 

17 cost of fossil fuel alternatives.

18 And several states have really proven 

19 that they can quickly ramp up energy efficiency 

20 efforts to contribute to large scale decreases in 

21 emissions.

22 The solution is clear. We can no longer 

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1 subscribe to this gambler's mentality. Trying 

2 our luck, hoping and betting foolishly that the 

3 next Hurricane Sandy or exceptional California 

4 drought, or biblical flood is just going to be 

5 avoided like magic. We urge you to write the 

6 strictest carbon pollution standard possible. 

7 Thank you.

8 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Leah. Leslie. 

9 MS. FIELDS: Good afternoon. My name is 

10 Leslie Fields. I'm the Director of the 

11 Environmental Justice and Community Partnerships 

12 Program at the Sierra Club here in Washington, 

13 D.C. 

14 My first name is spelled L-E-S-L-I-E. My 

15 last name is spelled F-I-E-L-D-S. And you've no 

16 doubt heard that the Sierra Club strongly 

17 supports EPA's proposed Clean Pollution Standards 

18 for existing power plants and modified plants. 

19 I would like to touch on what the rule 

20 for existing power plant means for communities of 

21 color and economic disadvantaged Americans. This 

22 rule is a great effort in the right direction. 

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1 We hope EPA will also address some unresolved 

2 issues with this rule regarding environmental 

3 justice communities. 

4 Executive Order 12898 establishes a 

5 Federal executive policy on environmental 

6 justice. It's main provision directs agencies to 

7 the greatest extent possible and practical by law 

8 to make the environmental justice part of their 

9 mission by identifying and addressing as 

10 appropriate, disproportionate, high, and adverse 

11 human health and environmental effects of these 

12 programs.

13 Section 2A of the preamble of this rule 

14 summarizes the public health and welfare impacts 

15 from greenhouse gas emissions that were detailed 

16 in the 2009 Endangerment Finding.

17 The Administrator consider the climate 

18 change risk to minority and low income 

19 populations. Finding that certain parts of the 

20 population would be especially vulnerable based 

21 on their circumstances, these include poor, 

22 elderly, very young, those already in poor 

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1 health, disabled, living alone, and indigenous 

2 populations. 

3 And the Administrator has placed great 

4 weight on the fact that these certain groups, 

5 including children, elderly, and the poor are 

6 most vulnerable to climate health effects. 

7 This rule would limit greenhouse gas 

8 emissions by establishing Co2 emissions 

9 guidelines for existing fossil fuel fired 

10 electric generating units, or EGUs. In addition 

11 to reducing the Co2 emissions implementing the 

12 proposed rule would reduce other emissions from 

13 EUGs that become dispatched less frequently due 

14 to their relatively low energy efficiency.

15 Persons with low socioeconomic stature

16 have been generally found to have high prevalence

17 of preexisting diseases, limited access to 

18 medical treatment, and increased nutritional 

19 deficiencies, which can increase the population's

20 risk of PM related and ozone related effects. 

21 Therefore in these areas where this rule 

22 may reduce exposure to P2 and five ozone and 

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1 metal mercury, persons with low socioeconomic 

2 stature would also benefit.

3 In addition, some of the EGUs possibly 

4 being required to state -- to make modifications 

5 for increased energy efficiency, another affect 

6 of the Co2 emission guidelines for existing 

7 fossil fuel EGUs would be to increase utilization 

8 of other unmodified EGUs with relatively low 

9 greenhouse gas emissions per unit and 

10 particularly high efficiency EGUs.

11 Because such EGUs have not been modified 

12 physically or changed in their method, they would 

13 not be subject to review in the NSR, New Sources 

14 Review Permitting Program. Such plants would 

15 have more hours in the year in which they would 

16 operate and emit pollutants, including pollutants 

17 whose environmental effects would be localized 

18 rather than global as indicates greenhouse 

19 emissions.

20 Depending on the specificity of the state 

21 Clean Air Act Section 111D plans, the state would 

22 be able to predict which of these EGUs and 

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1 communities may be in this type of situation and 

2 to address these concerns. 

3 And EPA is again saying that existing 

4 tracking systems to allow these states to be 

5 aware of these EGUs need to be increased very 

6 significantly. 

7 And this is where EPA must be vigilant. 

8 Support resources. So communities and their 

9 advocates can understand what is going on, the 

10 time frame for the SIPs and the FIPs if 

11 necessary, must be publicized for communities and 

12 their advocates. EPA has done a very good job 

13 recently conducting workshops which EPA rule 

14 writers and EJ activists have been working 

15 together and collaborating. 

16 And I've participated in one at Research 

17 Triangle Park earlier this year, and on June 26th 

18 there was one regarding the refinery rule at 

19 Dillard University.

20 This proposed rule, though however, would 

21 result in regional national pollutant reductions. 

22 However, it is likely that there would be 

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1 locations with more times during the year 

2 relatively higher concentrations of pollutants, 

3 with a potential for effects on localized 

4 communities than would be experienced in the 

5 absence of the proposed rule. 

6 And this is EPA saying again, it can't 

7 exactly predict how emissions from these specific 

8 EGUs would change as an outcome of the proposed 

9 rule due to state lead implementation. Therefore 

10 EPA states it has concluded that it is not 

11 practicable to determine whether there would be 

12 disproportionately or high and adverse human 

13 health environmental effects on these localized 

14 populations. Well, that's not acceptable. EPA 

15 should do a proper environmental justice analysis 

16 as required under Executive Order 12898, and we 

17 know that EPA can do this. We still laud EPA for 

18 its gold standard EJ analysis for the definition 

19 of solid waste rule. 

20 So EPA must do this the same for all 

21 rules. To simply say that there is, you know, 

22 it's not practical to determine whether it's 

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1 going to be high or disproportionate effects in 

2 human health is just not acceptable at all.

3 And also EPA must also be serious about 

4 enforcing Title 6 of the Civil Rights Act during 

5 this process because Title 6 mandates that any 

6 entity that receives federal funds cannot 

7 discriminate on the basis of race, natural 

8 origin, or color. There also should be an EJ 

9 analysis looking at the use of mass-based and 

10 rate-based systems to be conducted. There's 

11 alternative energy concerns that are critical to 

12 EJ communities and I know my time is up so I will 

13 continue my comments in the written form. 

14 Thank you very much.

15 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much and we 

16 encourage you to submit comments on the --

17 MS. FIELDS: Okay.

18 MR. NIEBLING: On those specifics.

19 MS. FIELDS: All right. Thanks.

20 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. The next two 

21 people I'd like to invite to come speak are 

22 Catherine Thomasson and Rebecca Forbes, please. 

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1 MS. THOMASSON: Thank you. Hello. My 

2 name is Dr. Catherine Thomasson. Catherine is 

3 with a C, C-A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E, and my last name 

4 Thomasson is T-H-O-M-A-S-S-O-N. 

5 I'm the Executive Director of Physicians 

6 for Social Responsibility, representing 40,000 

7 members and advocates for this rule. 

8 I'm here to speak for a strong rule; a 

9 strong clean power plan and advocate to make it 

10 stronger than it's currently written.

11 As a physician I've taken care of people 

12 with arrhythmias and heart attacks and chronic 

13 lung diseases. I've had to shock people to bring 

14 their heart back to life. 

15 By implementing this rule we will reduce 

16 the rise of ozone which exacerbates all these 

17 diseases. We will also reduce coal burning power 

18 plants which produce particulates and other 

19 pollutions which also make these diseases worse. 

20 As a physician I've also treated heat 

21 stroke and asthma, which is skyrocketing. 

22 At the end of the century, if we don't 

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1 implement a strong rule and take additional 

2 actions the temperature in the summer is going to 

3 get higher than eight to 15 degrees Fahrenheit

4 more than it is now. The numbers that are often 

5 cited are the average year round temperatures. 

6 But summer temperatures will get a lot warmer 

7 than winter temperatures will.

8 But I've also worked in migrant clinics 

9 in Oregon. Thirty-one percent of Hispanic 

10 population before the Affordable Care Act, did 

11 not have any health insurance. So those people 

12 don't get treated for their heat stroke, their 

13 asthma and their heart attack.

14 Perhaps even more seriously in terms of 

15 the health impacts of climate change is the 

16 impact of extreme weather on our infrastructure. 

17 I was appalled when I read at the hospital in 

18 Belvue that had to take its intensive care 

19 patients on breathing machines down the stairwell 

20 because there was no electricity.

21 Hurricane Katrina closed seven hospitals 

22 in the city. Only five have reopened. The 

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1 largest charity care, Charity Hospital, has not 

2 reopened, leaving a lot of people without care.

3 Sea level rise and floods will also ruin 

4 water treatment plants, town halls, and other 

5 infrastructure that are located at the shoreline. 

6 All of this is so much more expensive than 

7 implementing this rule, and other measures to 

8 reduce climate change.

9 So what's great about this EPA rule? 

10 It's the largest single federal action to reduce 

11 the threat of climate change, and I thank you for 

12 that. In addition it has been constructed so 

13 that every state has the flexibility to take 

14 action based on their political ability and their 

15 resource ability. That's incredible flexibility 

16 for a rule. 

17 What are the limitations? Well, it's 

18 only a good first step. It gets us less than 15 

19 percent of where we really need to be in terms of 

20 carbon reductions to achieve a limit of two 

21 degrees centigrade elevation in our temperature 

22 over the next century.

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1 The EPA also used very moderate standards 

2 to determine what the states can actually 

3 achieve. So with energy efficiency standards as 

4 a yardstick, if we did many more things such as 

5 more insulation, white roofs, new appliance 

6 standards, better construction, automatic switch 

7 off for all of our electronic devices, we could 

8 reduce our electric demand by 50 percent. 

9 I am feeling -- I feel very lucky that I 

10 have the ability to put solar panels on my roof. 

11 I installed them with a large tax rebate, I 

12 signed up for brownout allowances, and rarely 

13 when I purchase electricity I get it from wind.

14 These policies and incentives are shown 

15 to improve the likelihood of people accepting, 

16 utilizing, and being proud of having green 

17 energy. Many studies have shown that increasing 

18 green energy and electricity can achieve what we 

19 need.

20 How can we make this rule better besides 

21 requiring even more reductions? Less emphasis on 

22 natural gas. Natural gas is a fossil fuel. When 

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1 it's burned it still emits 50 percent carbon 

2 dioxide into the atmosphere. And this rule 

3 cannot include this, I understand that, but if we 

4 had to include all the fugitive gas of this 

5 extremely strong or greenhouse gas from mining to 

6 transport to storage, natural gas is not any 

7 better than coal. So putting more emphasis on 

8 energy efficiency and green renewable energies 

9 will make the rule stronger and provide us with 

10 less health threats in the future.

11 So thank you very much for taking our 

12 testimony.

13 MR. NIEBLING: Okay.

14 MS. FORBES: Thank you. Well, good 

15 afternoon. My name is Rebecca Forbes. That's 

16 spelled F-O-R-B-E-S and I'm here in support of

17 the EPA Clean Power Plan. 

18 While I am an intern at Environment 

19 America, I'm here actually as a Canadian Citizen 

20 today, and as well as a member of the next 

21 generation. 

22 When I was a child a big focus of my life 

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1 was going to the beaches along the Great Lakes. 

2 My family frequently went to the Canadian side of 

3 Lake Erie. 

4 On one of these trips my family and I 

5 recognized that the beach had effectively become 

6 a toxic waste basis for a lot of major industry 

7 and power plants. Specifically there was a lot 

8 of waste as a result of air pollution. A lot of 

9 it had been absorbed into the algae, and as 

10 insignificant as that may sound it actually 

11 resulted in the algae blooming and absorbing all 

12 the oxygen from the lake and killing a majority 

13 of the fish.

14 As a child I was terrified because seeing 

15 dead fish floating among the waves is not 

16 something that you'd be used to by any stretch of 

17 the imagination. 

18 I recognize that the EPA power plan would 

19 be a great method of reducing this and causing a 

20 lot of beneficial traits for the environment as a 

21 whole. With that said I remember that my mother 

22 was terrified for my health, I was terrified for 

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1 my health, but I didn't fully understand the 

2 extent of the situation. And I believe that the 

3 Clean Power Plan is a great method of changing 

4 that problem for future generations.

5 The Great Lakes are one of the greatest 

6 and most substantial fresh water resources on 

7 Earth. And they're important for people on both 

8 sides of the border, not just America. With that 

9 said I also believe that the Clean Power Plan 

10 would be an amazing step for Americans to benefit 

11 their own public health.

12 Specifically relating to an example said 

13 by Senator Sanders of Vermont, he brought a very 

14 interesting example to the table at the recent 

15 hearing, the senate hearing with Administrator 

16 Gina McCarthy. He made a comparison between 

17 anthropogenic climate change and tobacco growth 

18 in the U.S.

19 The correlation he made was that the 

20 federal government was lobbied very aggressively 

21 by tobacco farmers and associated industries at 

22 the point when tobacco was introduced as having a 

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1 risk to public health. At that time science and 

2 facts won that battle and eventually there were 

3 legislations put in place to prevent tobacco use 

4 in many public spaces and to prevent second hand 

5 smoke from affecting many people.

6 I believe that this situation is very 

7 similar and that we can use similar traits in 

8 order to benefit our environment, and to protect 

9 people in both Canada and the U.S.

10 I applaud the EPA for standing strongly 

11 against adversaries who openly deny manmade 

12 climate change. The Clean Power Plan is what 

13 America needs to move forward. America is one of 

14 the most powerful and influential countries on 

15 Earth. And with that said, the large-scale

16 decisions made by the American government tend to 

17 have a ripple effect.

18 In the case of the Clean Power Plan if 

19 the government chooses not to go through with 

20 this plan the public health of the entire 

21 international community will be effectively put 

22 at risk. I, for one, as a member of the future 

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1 generation -- well, the next generation, do not 

2 want to be held responsible and have to deal with 

3 the consequences of things from the other 

4 generations before me. And I don't believe that 

5 my children in the future will want to either.

6 A major flaw in the industry as a whole 

7 is that -- many states have actually mentioned 

8 this; the emissions of one state can spread to 

9 other states. There's no concentration to hold 

10 things within borders. I believe that the EPA 

11 Clean Power Plan is a step in the right 

12 direction.

13 By limiting emissions produced by coal 

14 burning power plants, and switching some focus to 

15 renewable energy not only will American citizens 

16 be benefitted economically, as well as in terms 

17 of public health, but so will the rest of the 

18 global community.

19 The American influence is likely to 

20 spread and inspire other countries to take 

21 similar steps. America is on the forefront of 

22 beginning an energy revolution. And it requires 

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1 that the American government recognize that the 

2 benefits really do outweigh the costs. A fear of 

3 change or a fear of possible repercussions is 

4 completely irrelevant because in order to take 

5 any successful step you need to take a risk. And 

6 because of that I would like to thank the EPA for 

7 proposing this initiative and encouraging it to 

8 move forward. 

9 Thank you.

10 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Rebecca. Next 

11 I'd like to call up Robin Mann and Nancy Kunz12 Merry, please. 

13 MS. MANN: Hi. My name is Robin Mann, R14 O-B-I-N M-A-N-N. I'm from Rosemont, 

15 Pennsylvania. I appreciate the opportunity to 

16 testify today. I strongly support the EPA moving 

17 forward to limit carbon pollution from existing 

18 power plants. 

19 I'm a Sierra Club volunteer, active at 

20 local, state, and national levels, and currently 

21 serve on the Board of Directors. But I am also a 

22 grandmother of two beautiful little grandchildren 

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1 and that's what compels me to be here today.

2 As many have said before me, we have a 

3 moral obligation to our children, grandchildren, 

4 and generations beyond, to take aggressive action 

5 to cut carbon pollution and prevent the most 

6 extreme climate disruption into which we are 

7 otherwise heading. 

8 We know that by failing to act more 

9 promptly to address carbon pollution we have 

10 already committed many people, especially those 

11 in frontline communities with the least 

12 responsibility for causing the climate 

13 disruption, to harsher living conditions and 

14 massive dislocation.

15 In sheltering the fossil fuels industries 

16 for so long we have also retarded the expansion 

17 of clean energy based industries and stifled job 

18 creation that could have benefited so many more 

19 in need of employment. 

20 I resent fossil fuel interests continuing 

21 efforts to obstruct action. Their well-practiced 

22 approach is as predictable as it is manipulative 

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1 and misleading to put it generously. They are 

2 showing hostility where the conversation needs to 

3 be about transition assistance for workers and 

4 seeking to pit those who are concerned about 

5 leaving a livable planet to their kids against 

6 those who are concerned about paying their energy 

7 bills. 

8 Locally the Sierra Club is playing a 

9 supporting role with a coalition from the 

10 Environmental Justice Community of East Wick in 

11 Southwest Philadelphia, which is not only 

12 burdened by legacy pollution and flooding 

13 problems, but is facing increasing threats from 

14 sea level rise and storm surge. 

15 One of their leaders is expected to 

16 testify here today, and more will be submitting 

17 comment. They have first hand appreciation for 

18 the fact that many low income energy consumers 

19 are also living in frontline communities 

20 increasingly at risk from the effects of climate 

21 disruption. We need to confront their multiple 

22 challenges.

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1 In preparation for this hearing I 

2 reviewed the report released last month by the 

3 analysis group on the Clean Power Plan, which is 

4 informative about the industry's claims, 

5 specifically with regard to protecting low income 

6 energy consumers from negative impacts of the 

7 rule. They note that states are well-equipped

8 through longstanding utility rate making 

9 principles, practices, and programs to help 

10 protect low income customers when electricity 

11 costs increase. 

12 They also document the experience to date 

13 with the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, 

14 which in a monumental disservice to its citizens, 

15 Pennsylvania opted not to join. 

16 Seeing RGGI as an indicator of the 

17 economic effects that may be anticipated from the 

18 Clean Power Plan the report concluded as follows. 

19 "Use of RGGI dollars to invest in energy 

20 efficiency ended up lowering regional electrical 

21 demand, lowering electricity prices, and lowering 

22 all consumer's payments for electricity. Not 

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1 just those who installed energy efficiency 

2 measures." 

3 These savings on electricity bills flow 

4 through the economy as increased consumer 

5 disposable income, from fewer dollars spent on 

6 energy bills, lower payments to out of state 

7 energy suppliers, and increased local spending or 

8 savings.

9 Under the Clean Power Plan the states 

10 would also have the latitude in designing their 

11 programs to meet emission limits, to address 

12 transition assistance for workers, and make it a 

13 priority.

14 Under the plan states have the 

15 opportunity to drive the transition in a way that 

16 will be just and fair to workers and to 

17 consumers. Yes, it will be important for public 

18 pressure to ensure those concerns are given 

19 priority. But working together we can do that. 

20 And we can do better.

21 I urge EPA to strengthen the rule and set 

22 the bar even higher than 30 percent reduction by 

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1 2030, and full recognize of the progress that has 

2 been made to date and the urgency of the science 

3 tells us is needed.

4 Thank you again for the opportunity.

5 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Robin. Nancy, 

6 it looks like you have somebody with you.

7 MS. KUNZ-MERRY: Yes. So, my name is 

8 Nancy Kunz-Merry. That's K-U-N-Z, hyphen, Merry. 

9 And this is my four year old son, Jack.

10 I'm a member of the New Jersey Chapter of 

11 Moms for Clean Air, and I took the day off from 

12 work and left my one year old daughter, Clair, 

13 home with my husband to be here today because 

14 this is so important. I did, however, bring a 

15 picture. 

16 The first thing I'd like to say is thank 

17 you for listening to testimony. Jack and I are 

18 honored to speak to you today. 

19 We live in Maplewood, New Jersey, and 

20 although we consider ourselves very lucky 

21 considering how much some families lost, 

22 Hurricane Sandy was devastating to our 

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1 neighborhood. We were out of power for 10 days 

2 and the neighborhood looked like a war zone.

3 So many beautiful homes were destroyed, 

4 power lines down, fuel lines were literally miles 

5 long, and roads were closed for weeks.

6 The most devastating, however, was how 

7 much it scared Jack. And the thought that these 

8 storms will be more and more common in his and 

9 Claire's future. Of course I was very happy that 

10 New York City and our beloved Jersey Shore 

11 rebuilt, but the answer cannot be to build a 

12 stronger retaining wall or get a generator. We 

13 cannot be so shortsighted or so selfish. It is 

14 hard for me to believe that anyone, and 

15 especially anyone that has experienced one of 

16 these storms firsthand is not doing everything 

17 that they can to clean up our air.

18 What will we say to our children and our 

19 grandchildren when they ask us, what we helped to 

20 do to stop global warming? What will I say to 

21 Jack and Claire? Will I have to say yes, the 

22 science told us that we'll have more destructive 

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1 hurricanes, devastating droughts, and just 

2 terribly extreme weather, but we chose to ignore 

3 it? 

4 Will I have to say yes, the science told 

5 us that kids like you will have more asthma and 

6 health problems, and that you'll have to suffer 

7 unbearable heat, but no one cared? 

8 Will I have to say yes, the science told 

9 us that global warming will kill off entire 

10 species, but we were too selfish to listen? What 

11 answer can any of us possibly give that would 

12 make sense to them if we let this happen?

13 Or will I be able to tell them what could 

14 have happened; what could have happened if our 

15 government, along with the EPA, global 

16 government, scientists, and a bunch of moms and 

17 dads that love their children so very much didn't 

18 take strong steps in cleaning up our air. 

19 An essential step in limiting the impact 

20 to climate change is placing limits on carbon 

21 pollution from power plants. The EPA's Clean 

22 Power Plant Plan is an important first step in 

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1 addressing climate change. 

2 I ask that the EPA strengthens the Clean 

3 Power Plan and finalizes a rule that reduces 

4 carbon dioxide emissions 40 percent below 2005 

5 levels by 2020. 

6 My family keeps this picture of Jack 

7 holding hands with a polar bear out, as a 

8 constant reminder to us that how we live today 

9 will dramatically affect the future of our 

10 children and our planet. But Jack actually has 

11 an ask of his own.

12 MR. KUNZ-MERRY: Clean up our air for the 

13 kids.

14 MS. KUNZ-MERRY: Thanks again for your 

15 time.

16 MR. KUNZ-MERRY: And clean the air. 

17 Clean up our air for me and my sister, Claire.

18 MS. KUNZ-MERRY: Okay. Thank you very 

19 much. Thank you.

20 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you much.

21 MS. KUNZ-MERRY: Thank you.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Next I'd like to call up 

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1 Chris Mayo and Rachel Morales, please. 

2 MR. MAYO: Good afternoon. My name is 

3 Christopher Mayo. That's C-H-R-I-S-T-O-P-H-E-R 

4 M-A-Y-O. And I am a legal fellow at the Center 

5 for Biological Diversity. 

6 Here are some of our preliminary thoughts 

7 on the proposed rule and the overall 

8 administration climate plan.

9 The proposed rule is a significant step 

10 toward the mitigation of climate change, but is 

11 inadequate to address the immensity of the 

12 problem. This rule is neither stringent nor 

13 prompt enough to avoid the worst impacts of 

14 global climate disruption. Science has 

15 demonstrated that we must lower our economy wide

16 emissions to 50 percent below 1990 levels by 

17 2020, giving us a medium chance of keeping 

18 warming to two degrees Celsius.

19 The 2030 goal of achieving reductions and 

20 the lenient state targets will fail to prevent 

21 the climate change's worst effects. Greenhouse 

22 gases build up over decades and centuries to 

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1 create a strong cumulative effect, waiting 15 

2 years to achieve any meaningful reductions is 

3 unacceptable.

4 Using 2005 emission levels as a baseline 

5 is a mistake for multiple reasons. First, the 

6 2005 baseline will take credit for reductions 

7 that have already occurred as emissions have 

8 declined since their height in 2005. 

9 Second, the international community has 

10 agreed to use 1990 as the appropriate baseline 

11 and we should follow suit. Scientists base their 

12 required reduction amounts on 1990 levels so it 

13 only makes sense to use these levels as the 

14 baseline for reductions.

15 The proposed rule should more strongly 

16 encourage the reliance on renewable energy. 

17 Shifting away from fossil fuels is the only way 

18 to successfully mitigate climate change. While 

19 industry representatives say that such a shift is 

20 impossible, this is simply not the case. 

21 Greenpeace has found that the U.S. could generate 

22 over 70 percent of its electricity from renewable 

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1 energy by the year 2030. The EPA's targets for 

2 the use of renewables is far below our capacity. 

3 Some states are already producing more renewable 

4 energy than EPA projects.

5 This rule should encourage further growth 

6 of renewable energy, not maintain the status quo. 

7 Coal dependent states should not get a free pass.

8 The implementation of renewable energy in 

9 these states should be seen as a gateway to new 

10 industry, not a blockade to financial success. 

11 Increased use of natural gas powered 

12 generation will not result in 40 percent emission 

13 reductions. Methane leakage can happen at any 

14 point in the supply line, and the leakage rate is 

15 higher than EPA uses in its formulas. The leaked 

16 methane is up to 100 times more harmful than 

17 carbon dioxide emissions. Increased use of 

18 natural gas would also mean an increase in 

19 fracking, further endangering the public and our 

20 precious freshwater resources. 

21 The technology forcing requirements to 

22 the Clean Air Act should also be enforced by 

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1 requiring increases in efficiency at existing 

2 natural gas plants. 

3 Finally, generating power using bio-mass 

4 from trees should not be considered. This is a 

5 highly inefficient and carbon intensive process 

6 which will most likely increase atmospheric Co2 

7 concentrations for decades and centuries to come. 

8 The assumption that bio-mass Co2 has no effect on 

9 the climate is scientifically indefensible and 

10 illogical, and neither the states nor the EPA 

11 should use this assumption in their calculations. 

12 While bio-mass from trees may be, under stringent 

13 circumstances, renewable, most current industry 

14 practices are anything but clean or climate 

15 friendly. Thank you.

16 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Chris. Rachel.

17 MS. MORALES: Hello. My name is Rachel 

18 Morales, spelled M-O-R-A-L-E-S. I'm an intern 

19 with Environment America as well as a lifelong --

20 I grew up in the second most vulnerable city to 

21 climate change in the nation.

22 The consequences of climate change are 

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1 being reaped where I grew up in Hampton Roads. 

2 Recurrent flooding has affected home and business 

3 proposed value, and it has begun to adversely 

4 affect decisions to install military 

5 infrastructure and continue running military 

6 operations there. 

7 This is scary. The military in Hampton 

8 Roads is such a large pillar of the economy. If 

9 carbon pollution continues to go undealt with my 

10 hometown will lose that very significant 

11 investment. Eventually sea level rise will 

12 destroy the beaches and farms I grew up on. The 

13 other two major economic sectors in Hampton 

14 Roads.

15 As climate change goes unbridled the 

16 instances of lymes disease, reproductive, and 

17 immune disorders and asthma attacks will 

18 increase. This paints a very sad picture of 

19 poverty and illness for my friends and family in 

20 Chesapeake. 

21 I believe in the Clean Power Plan. 

22 Prioritizing renewable energy and energy 

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1 efficiency will establish a diverse market of 

2 resources and create thousands of jobs in energy 

3 related sectors. I believe this rule gives us an 

4 opportunity to nurture innovation while 

5 protecting the health of our communities and 

6 economies. 

7 I ask the EPA to pursue carbon emission 

8 reductions up to 40 percent through the use of 

9 renewables and energy efficiency over nuclear and 

10 natural gas. I believe this, combined with 

11 public resources and training programs is the 

12 fastest, safest, most cost effective way to 

13 transition America to a clean energy landscape. 

14 Thank you.

15 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I'd like 

16 to invite up Liz Geltman and Mary Crutchfield, 

17 please. Try to keep things moving here. Thank 

18 you.

19 MS. GLASS-GELTMAN: Thank you for giving 

20 me the opportunity to discuss the public health 

21 issues of carbon and U.S. proposed Clean Power 

22 Plan. 

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1 My name is Elizabeth Glass-Geltman, G-E2 L-T-M-A-N. And I am an Associate Professor and 

3 Director of Environmental and Occupational Health 

4 Sciences Program at the City University of New

5 York School of Public Health, and the Urban 

6 School of Public Health at Hunter College.

7 I am also an attorney with 30 years of 

8 experience in environmental law and policy. 

9 Climate change is undoubtedly one of the most 

10 significant public health concerns facing 

11 mankind. The human perils of climate change are 

12 becoming increasingly apparent from sea level 

13 rise and storm damage.

14 In New York City, we are still feeling 

15 the after effects of Hurricane Sandy. I applaud 

16 efforts by U.S. EPA to reduce carbon emissions.

17 I am, however, deeply concerned about 

18 certain aspects of the U.S. EPA plan. 

19 First, while I understand that focusing 

20 on carbon emissions from power plants is the 

21 Presidential mandate, focusing on carbon 

22 emissions to the exclusion of methane emissions 

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1 is problematic. 

2 Methane is also a potent greenhouse gas 

3 and it contributes to climate change. Focusing 

4 on carbon alone is like checking your car's gas 

5 tank and ignoring the oil level when the check 

6 engine light is on.

7 Clean power must focus on both methane 

8 and carbon emissions. To the extent power plants 

9 use natural gas, and currently about 30 percent

10 of our power plants already do, it is imperative

11 that U.S. EPA promulgate and enforce regulations 

12 to ensure that the best available control 

13 technologies are used to detect, prevent, and 

14 control methane leakage from power plants and 

15 related infrastructure.

16 Second, I am worried that components of 

17 U.S. EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan best system 

18 of emission reduction, or BSER, encourages 

19 unsustainable practices that will neither reduce 

20 climate change, nor best protect environment and 

21 human health.

22 In particular I am alarmed that U.S. 

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1 EPA's emphasis on redispatch in block two of the 

2 BSER, excuse me, is a bad idea. Redispatch 

3 encourages states to reduce carbon emissions by 

4 shifting from coal fired power plants to power 

5 plants that are fueled with natural gas. The 

6 U.S. Energy Information Administration predicts 

7 that most, if not all natural gas, will soon come 

8 from unconventional sources, primarily shale gas, 

9 using hydraulic fracturing, or what the public is 

10 calling fracked gas. 

11 The science on fracked gas remains 

12 controversial. It is unclear whether the 

13 lifecycle of fracked gas causes less greenhouse 

14 emissions than those from other carbon based 

15 sources. It is unclear the extent to which 

16 fracked gas causes contamination of ground water 

17 and surface waters. It is unclear the extent to 

18 which fracked gas causes depletion of scarce 

19 water resources. 

20 In short, both the health effects and the 

21 environmental effects of fracked gas are still 

22 very very unclear. The lack of clear and 

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1 convincing scientific consensus that the practice 

2 of using hydraulic fracturing to extract shale 

3 gas is safe, should cause us all pause. We must 

4 be sure that the health and environmental safety 

5 of shale gas extraction before we invest even 

6 more heavily in shifting our electric power 

7 plants from relying on coal to fracked gas to 

8 power our lives and our economy.

9 Congress recognized the uncertainties 

10 about water quality and quantity issues by asking 

11 U.S. EPA to conduct a study. At a very minimum 

12 it is irresponsible for U.S. EPA to encourage 

13 additional fracking infrastructure until U.S. EPA 

14 concludes its congressionally mandated drinking 

15 water study on the impacts of shale gas 

16 extraction and lifecycle.

17 It is also necessary that U.S. EPA 

18 completes the notice and comment process 

19 evaluating the promulgating of hydraulic

20 fracturing chemical and mixture disclosure rules 

21 under TSCA before encouraging the building of 

22 more gas powered power plants. 

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1 The redispatch portion of Clean Power 

2 Plan currently lies heavily on expanding the 

3 drilling and further investing in fracked gas. 

4 Once built, the fracked gas dependent 

5 infrastructure would be difficult to undo. 

6 Converting even more of our power plants from 

7 coal to natural gas may lead to less carbon 

8 emissions, but the thirst for fracked gas could 

9 lead to serious quality -- water quality and 

10 quantity issues. It is very important that we 

11 weight the investment in fracked gas that 

12 redispatch requires.

13 Currently 30 percent of our power plants 

14 rely on natural gas. Thirty-eight percent rely 

15 on coal. That means 60 percent of our economy 

16 could be relying on fracked gas if this is going 

17 on. In addition the Marcellus and Devonian 

18 Shales sit on top of the drinking water aquifer 

19 for 9 million people. Think of an incident where 

20 we had a deep water horizon caliber spill in the 

21 drinking water aquifer for 9 million people. 

22 The health effects of cleaner air would 

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1 be difficult to enjoy if there is no clean water 

2 to drink. We need to reconsider the redispatch 

3 program. 

4 I'm wrapping up. In short, I whole 

5 heartedly applaud the effort of U.S. EPA to 

6 reduce carbon based greenhouse gases, and I 

7 support the efforts to begin with power plants. 

8 Reducing carbon emissions is an important goal, 

9 and three of the blocks of BSER are well drafted. 

10 Efforts to make coal plants more efficient, 

11 encouraging zero and lower emissions for 

12 renewables like wind and solar, encouraging more 

13 demand side are important. Reducing dependence 

14 on coal will help reduce. But moving from Coal 

15 to natural gas as a bridge before we take 

16 adequate precautions to protect human health and 

17 the environment when they engage in shale gas is 

18 a mistake.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

20 MS. GLASS-GELTMAN: I caution that we do 

21 that and I thank you for your efforts.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

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1 MS. GLASS-GELTMAN: Let's start with a 

2 clean canon. If you have any questions I have a 

3 lot of --

4 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

5 MS. GLASS-GELTMAN: -- citations as well 

6 as tables and facts.

7 MR. NIEBLING: We welcome those in the 

8 written comments.

9 MS. GLASS-GELTMAN: I'll do that. Thank 

10 you. 

11 MR. NIEBLING: Mary.

12 MS. CRUTCHFIELD: Well, she could have 

13 some of my time because mine is very short. I am 

14 Mary Crutchfield. That's spelled M-A-R-Y C-R-U15 T-C-H-F-I-E-L-D. And I'm with Sierra Club.

16 MR. NIEBLING: Could you move the

17 microphone. Thank you.

18 MS. CRUTCHFIELD: Is that better? 

19 I come to speak to you today as a 

20 concerned citizen and property owner in Richmond, 

21 Virginia. 

22 I have already seen some of the effects 

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1 of climate change in my own small property. I 

2 have observed that we have had more intense 

3 storms with heavier rain fall and more frequency 

4 in the past five years than in previous years.

5 A few years ago when Hurricane Irene came 

6 through Richmond, I lost the entire fence along 

7 one side of my property. In another storm my 

8 next door neighbor had a tree fall on to the 

9 front of the house, which damaged windows, a 

10 porch, and part of the roof. It was a 

11 traumatizing experience for our whole 

12 neighborhood, and for the whole city to go 

13 through these storms and to see the damage that 

14 they caused.

15 I have read that having more severe 

16 storms is one of the effects of climate change. 

17 Scientists have established that carbon pollution 

18 is the main contributor to climate change. 

19 Fossil fuel powered plants produce 40 percent of 

20 the carbon pollution in our country. Therefore 

21 it is important to set a standard for the coal 

22 fired plants and all plants in order to prevent 

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1 more serious changes in our climate in the 

2 future.

3 I'm also concerned about the effects of 

4 climate change on Virginia's coast. It's 

5 important to take measures to cut back on carbon 

6 pollution in order to prevent increased warming, 

7 sea level rise, and flooding of Virginia's coast. 

8 It would be devastating to the tourist business 

9 of Virginia Beach, and to the Naval base in 

10 Norfolk, and if we had major flooding there.

11 I have read that Virginia's coast is the 

12 second most vulnerable to flooding, after the 

13 Gulf coast.

14 Lastly, I am concerned about health 

15 issues that are the consequence of carbon 

16 pollution in our environment. The state of 

17 Virginia has the highest rates of cases of asthma 

18 in the country. By the way, my sister-in-law and 

19 her daughter both have asthma. 

20 I think that if carbon pollution can be 

21 reduced by having limits at coal fired power 

22 plants that this will lower the number of asthma 

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1 cases in our state and in the whole country. I 

2 fully support the EPA in setting strong standards 

3 for limiting carbon pollution from power plants. 

4 Thank you.

5 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Thank you 

6 both. 

7 Next I'd like to invite up Richard Vesel 

8 and Shannon Minor, please. 

9 MR. VESEL SR.: Good afternoon, and thank 

10 you for this opportunity to speak briefly on a 

11 topic which has always been a priority for me. 

12 My name is Richard Vesel. That's spelled 

13 V-E-S-E-L. 

14 In one way or another I have been 

15 involved with technologies to improve energy 

16 efficiency and reduce greenhouse gas emissions 

17 from stationary sources for over 40 years. I'm 

18 older than I look. 

19 I'm very pleased by the Clean Power Plan 

20 approach which the EPA has taken, under which the 

21 states and the utilities within the states will 

22 create their own approaches to meet the overall 

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1 Co2 emissions reduction target that the EPA will 

2 be requiring. I see it as a variation on the 

3 theme and approach taken by the café standards in 

4 the transportation industry. Those standards set 

5 the bar and let the industry determine the 

6 technologies and the market approaches which will 

7 best meet the final criteria of fuel efficiency, 

8 and hence the associated reductions in Co2. 

9 I'm currently chairman of a working group 

10 for power generation energy efficiency within a 

11 major international professional society. I have 

12 also recently spent four and a half years as a 

13 global product manager for power generation 

14 energy efficiency, within an international $40 

15 billion per year industrial technology company.

16 There I helped to create a 360 page guide 

17 the efficient design of auxiliary systems in 

18 fossil fired power plants. 

19 I spent several years trying to get 

20 various efficiency improvements into widespread 

21 use by the industry and have repeatedly 

22 encountered a particular set of roadblocks. 

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1 There are estimates running as high as 1 billion 

2 tons of emitted Co2 which could have been avoided 

3 if the power generation industry had not been 

4 hampered by these counterproductive roadblocks to 

5 efficiency improvements.

6 I will briefly address four roadblock 

7 issues where the EPA can use their influence to 

8 guide, encourage, and assist the states in their 

9 utilities to most rapidly implement the changes 

10 needed to meet the proposed rules.

11 The first roadblock. Within regulated 

12 utilities any fuel cost savings which might be 

13 created through efficiency improvements would 

14 have to be returned to the power consumer, 

15 otherwise known as the rate base. This makes any 

16 efficiency improvement project have an automatic 

17 negative return on investment, and such projects 

18 never see the light of day. 

19 I would like to see the EPA encourage the 

20 states to allow some or all the financial 

21 benefits from efficiency improvements and Co2 

22 reductions to remain with the utilities so that a 

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1 positive ROI is possible and could then be used 

2 as a justification for the necessary capital 

3 projects which will have to be undertaken.

4 The second roadblock. Efficiency 

5 improvement opportunities are very often 

6 identified by plant wide studies which examine a 

7 power station from head to toe for ways in which 

8 efficiency can be improved and promoted. 

9 However, many states forbid the expenditure of 

10 funds on studies without their first being tied 

11 to a funded capital project. This puts the cart 

12 before the horse, since the utility would need to 

13 perform such a study in order to determine how 

14 best to spend their money in an efficiency 

15 improvement program.

16 I suggest that the EPA encourage the 

17 states to remove this type of impediment to 

18 efficiency improvement efforts and any Co2 

19 reduction targets.

20 The third roadblock. Efficiency 

21 improvements often lead to real or calculated 

22 increases in net plant output. The reality, or 

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1 the fear of this is that a new source review is 

2 immediately triggered, and the pain and cost of 

3 the NSR is enough to kill any further progress 

4 down the efficiency improvement path. I would 

5 suggest to the EPA that the NSA trigger rules be 

6 amended to make an exception for any capacity 

7 improvements resulting explicitly from efficiency 

8 improvement projects. As long as all other 

9 emission standards continue to be met, as 

10 demonstrated by site emissions monitoring the 

11 equipment. The regular site NSR schedule should 

12 remain in effect.

13 The fourth roadblock. The focus of state 

14 utility regulators has most often been driven by 

15 keeping the delivered cost of power to the rate 

16 base at the lowest possible levels. Very often 

17 this drive has resulted in utility budget 

18 trimming with calculated savings to the quote, 

19 "typically consumer," unquote, of $2 per month, 

20 $5 per month, $10 per month. 

21 As a consequence, many facilities are 

22 operating with skeleton staff levels and with 

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1 equipment systems which have been kept in 

2 operation many years past obsolescence. I 

3 suggest that these state policies be reviewed in 

4 terms of a penny-wise pound-foolish approach, and 

5 thus worthy of modification or elimination. 

6 I suggest to the EPA that it encourage 

7 the states to adopt governance policies which do 

8 the following; require the generating units 

9 upgrade to the best available technologies for 

10 efficient operation. This usually means upgrades 

11 to the plant controls and electrical mechanical 

12 auxiliary systems, as well as to the basic steam 

13 water cycle equipment itself. Allow for 

14 spreading the cost of such improvements into the 

15 rate base at nominal levels. Consumers routinely 

16 see upward variations to their essential 

17 utilities such as cable TV, internet, cell 

18 phones, et cetera, without any greater social 

19 benefit other than entertainment and the improved 

20 profitability of the service providers.

21 Conversely an electric bill that goes up 

22 one to five percent will be down in the financial 

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1 noise of most households, yet could greatly 

2 benefit the implementation of Co2 reductions from 

3 the one commodity most essential to our modern 

4 way of life. 

5 Final paragraph. Okay. Energy sector 

6 Co2 footprints are a concern for society at large 

7 and remedial action should be borne by all in 

8 some measure. Not just by a power industry 

9 hampered through selective financial constraints. 

10 Artificial regulatory encumbrances such as the 

11 ones I have mentioned are frequently used to 

12 manufacture device of controversies regarding the 

13 sharing of environmental responsibility between 

14 power producers and power consumers. I hope that 

15 the EPA can somehow address these issues as part 

16 of the Clean Power Plan. 

17 Thank you for listening to my concerns 

18 and suggestions.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Richard, and we 

20 encourage you to submit as written comments, some 

21 of those technical reports, the 360 page one you 

22 were mentioning. 

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1 Shannon, please.

2 MS. MINOR: Hello. How are you? My name 

3 is Shannon Minor. That's S-H-A-N-N-O-N, Minor is 

4 M-I-N-O-R. 

5 And I am a student at Virginia 

6 Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. I 

7 am concerned with the issue of climate change and 

8 believe that the United States Government must 

9 make this a top priority.

10 I have traveled across the country and 

11 have enjoyed camping in numerous national parks 

12 throughout my entire life. My dream, though, is 

13 to finally one day go to Glacier National Park in 

14 Montana. 

15 I have felt the pressure to do quickly 

16 with the looming threat of the glaciers melting 

17 away at an increased rate. My peers, family 

18 members, young and old, and future generations 

19 should live on a planet where the government 

20 leads an example of respecting and protecting the 

21 environment. 

22 Public transportation, education, and 

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1 healthcare are just to name a few important 

2 topics all connected under the umbrella of the 

3 environment. I am fulfilling my responsibility 

4 today as a citizen by standing here and talking 

5 to you, and just standing up for Mother Nature. 

6 I believe that it is time for the government as 

7 well to take responsibility on the larger scale.

8 Thank you very much for your time. Have 

9 a great day.

10 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Shannon. Thank 

11 you both. 

12 Next I'd like to invite up William 

13 Cozzens and Ronald Schlesinger, please. 

14 MR. COZZENS: My name is William Cozzens. 

15 It's William, W-I-L-L-I-A-M. Cozzens is spelled 

16 C-O-Z-Z-E-N-S. 

17 I'm a retiree and a former IT consultant 

18 to the electric and gas utility industry, and 

19 have worked in both fossil fired power plants and 

20 also in nuclear plants.

21 I fully support the efforts of the body 

22 EPA to reduce carbon dioxide and other gasses 

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1 which are contributing to global warming. I 

2 believe climate change is a very serious threat 

3 both to humanity and to the larger environment. 

4 In this respect I support the intent of the EPA's 

5 regulations to reduce carbon dioxide from fossil 

6 fired power plants.

7 However, I'm disappointed in several 

8 aspects of the proposed regulations. These 

9 relate to number one, the timeframe specified in 

10 the regulations and number two, the percent 

11 reductions on the carbon dioxide reductions in 

12 the regulations. 

13 In terms of timeframe there are two 

14 issues I see. One, the year 2030 is a full 16 

15 years away. That is a huge amount of time for 

16 the utility industry to implement efforts to 

17 reduce carbon dioxide pollution, especially with 

18 the measure being 30 percent reduction.

19 The second aspect is the base year of 

20 2005 is problematic. Many utilities, since 2005, 

21 have closed coal fire power plants, largely due 

22 to the obsolescence and inefficiency of some of 

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1 these plants, and other market changes. So in 

2 that respect they would be receiving, as I 

3 understand it under the regulations, automatic 

4 credit for those plants that have already been 

5 closed due to these market and engineering 

6 forces.

7 The second aspect, percent reduction in 

8 pollution, a 30 percent reduction in my mind is a 

9 very soft target. Especially over a 16 year 

10 timeframe. There should be more aggressive 

11 targets incorporated in the regulations. 

12 Without any regulation utilities will 

13 probably have reduced carbon dioxide from coal 

14 fired power plants by 30 percent by the 2030 due 

15 to the age and inefficiency of these plants and 

16 the availability of alternative energy sources, 

17 both fracked gas, which I agree with other 

18 commentators, is problematic, but also due to the 

19 dropping costs of solar and wind related energy.

20 If 2030 is to remain the target date for 

21 EPA I believe we should be targeting a 70 to 80 

22 percent reduction in carbon dioxide from coal 

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1 fired power plants. In my mind these more 

2 aggressive targets will help stimulate both the 

3 scientific engineering and market response to 

4 implement more clean and efficient energy 

5 sources. 

6 The cost of solar and wind generated 

7 energy are already dropping rapidly. In many 

8 markets they are already competitive with fossil 

9 fuel fired energy and with aggressive EPA 

10 targets, that will stimulate further innovation 

11 and development of these sources, allowing them 

12 to represent a much higher percentage of the 

13 power provided by the utility industry. Thank 

14 you.

15 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

16 MR. SCHLESINGER: Good afternoon. My 

17 name is Ronald Schlesinger, R-O-N-A-L-D, 

18 Schlesinger, S-C-H-L-E-S-I-N-G-E-R.

19 I am just representing myself. I have no 

20 organization that I'm representing. 

21 I'm just essentially very sick and tired 

22 of everyone saying, no, it can't be done. It's 

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1 about time everyone gets to the idea that at 

2 least let's try. And I am grateful for EPA for 

3 establishing, or for trying to get this rule set. 

4 We do have 16 years to get it implemented and I 

5 do not understand at all why the energy companies 

6 are fighting so hard against it. 

7 I'm just thinking back a couple of years 

8 ago. If the naysayers had their way we would 

9 still be riding in horses and buggies because the 

10 blacksmiths would have said no to automobiles. 

11 Bringing it up to more modern times, if -

12 - I remember not too long ago there was such a 

13 loud noise against kneeling buses. Yet today I 

14 think it's very hard to find a bus that does not 

15 kneel, all because we had the gumption to say, 

16 yes we can and yes we will. I think this is 

17 something that we really need to do. And I'm 

18 grateful, again, as I said, for EPA doing this 

19 rule.

20 I'm also -- I like to travel to national 

21 parks and I've been to Yellow Stone and Great 

22 Smokies, and Glacier, and I've not been to 

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1 Yosemite. It's one of my goals that I'd like to 

2 do one of these days. And I'd like to see these 

3 national parks in the vistas that when they were 

4 first discovered. And I don't like the idea of 

5 all the haze and smog that we sometimes have to 

6 put up with because of coal fired plants spewing 

7 out all these emissions.

8 So thank you very much for your time. 

9 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you both. Next I'd 

10 like to invite up Scott Burger and Robert Young. 

11 MR. BURGER: Good afternoon. My name is 

12 Scott Burger. That's S-C-O-T-T, and then B-U-R13 G-E-R. I'm a member of the Sierra Club.

14 I grew up in Norfolk, Virginia and I live 

15 in Richmond, Virginia. I have friends and family 

16 in Norfolk who will be negatively affected by 

17 rising sea levels and climate disruption caused 

18 by increased carbon levels. 

19 In Richmond my family and I suffer and 

20 experience illness due to excessive air pollution 

21 and smog. Most notably from power plants to the 

22 Southwest of us.

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1 In addition I'm concerned about the water 

2 pollution in the James River, which I live very 

3 close to. Mercury level is a concern. 

4 The coal trains, the incessant coal 

5 trains, I see them go by all the time. The bad 

6 joke is I'm watching West Virginia go by. 

7 They're a constant reminder of the pollution that 

8 surrounds us. It's worth noting how the coal 

9 traffic, the coal train traffic also interferes 

10 with plans for more and better passenger rail. 

11 People often complain about the traffic in 

12 Northern Virginia. And until we get rid of that 

13 Gordian Knot of energy policy and transportation 

14 policy, I think I'm afraid we're going to see 

15 more of it. We need to have the better passenger 

16 rail.

17 You know,, it doesn't have to be this 

18 way. In 2009 I installed solar on my house. I 

19 employed neighbors by doing so. I also increased 

20 my neighborhood's energy efficiency and disaster 

21 recover ability by doing so.

22 There is a certain amount of resiliency 

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1 that comes from going to cleaner power. You 

2 heard some people speak earlier about the 

3 hurricanes that come through Richmond, and 

4 certainly Norfolk. And we've been very lucky so

5 far and I'm very concerned about the category 5 

6 hurricane that comes through. I don't think 

7 Virginia Beach has seen one of those in maybe 100 

8 years. Whole spits of land in Hampton Roads were 

9 formed by hurricanes.

10 And, you know, regardless of what you 

11 think about the effects of climate change on 

12 weather, I am concerned about the ability to 

13 respond, to be resilient in the face of such 

14 disasters. And that's where solar and wind can 

15 help out a whole lot.

16 That's it. I encourage the country to go 

17 to solar and clean energy, and I appreciate your 

18 time. Thank you.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Scott. Robert.

20 MR. YOUNG: Hi. My name is Robert Young 

21 and I'm a youth leader with the Alliance for 

22 Climate Education. You may remember me from the 

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1 last hearing we had here.

2 I've always loved spending time with my 

3 family in nature. I started volunteering at my 

4 local nature center when I was nine, and it was 

5 around that time when I first learned about 

6 climate change. I was terrified by the impacts 

7 climate change could have on the natural world I 

8 cared so much about. And so I began to learn as 

9 much as I could about the issue.

10 In the nine years since then I've learned 

11 a lot. But most of all I've come to realize that 

12 the fight against climate change is not just 

13 about saving the natural world. It's also about 

14 saving me, my generation, and our future as a 

15 globe. And that is why you must issue the most 

16 ambitious power plant carbon dioxide emissions 

17 rule possible, in order to mitigate climate 

18 change and protect our future from its 

19 devastating impacts. 

20 The fact is that time is running out. 

21 Our nation has been ignoring reality and hitting 

22 the snooze button on climate action for far too 

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1 long. It's time to wake up and make the 

2 responsible decision.

3 Climate change is the single greatest 

4 challenge of this century and we are running out 

5 of time to overcome it. The most recent report 

6 by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 

7 stated that we must cut emissions by 40 to 70 

8 percent by 2050 in order to limit a global mean 

9 temperature rise to 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit, the 

10 maximum increase that will avoid the catastrophic 

11 impacts of climate change.

12 A 30 percent reduction from the United 

13 States power plants is a very good step in this 

14 direction. And these impacts are not the kind 

15 that will just hurt the polar bears. I'm not 

16 here to ask you to save the trees. My generation 

17 is the one that will have to deal with the 

18 destructive impacts of our negligence up to this 

19 point, including the collapse of ice sheets, mass 

20 plant and animal extinction, food shortages, 

21 flooding, and extreme weather events.

22 Human society and especially our sources 

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1 of energy have been dumping greenhouse gases into 

2 the atmosphere without a care for more than a 

3 century and our planet can no longer tolerate the 

4 abuse. 

5 But change is possible. And climate 

6 change is as much of an opportunity for our 

7 nation as it is a challenge. Having led my high 

8 school's environmental club and worked with other 

9 concerned youth nationwide through the Alliance 

10 for Climate Education, I can confidently say that 

11 hope is still alive. Especially among young 

12 people. 

13 Grassroots action, cleaner sources of 

14 energy, and technological breakthroughs continue 

15 to lead us towards a more sustainable future. 

16 And now as I begin at Stamford University in a 

17 few weeks I hope to have the chance to create 

18 some of the incredible technological innovations 

19 that move us closer towards this future. But you 

20 have to give us that chance. 

21 If our government, of the people, by the 

22 people, for the people, does not represent our 

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1 future in fighting climate change it hardly 

2 matters what I or anyone my age does. Although 

3 no one can promise that this process will be 

4 easy, it is clear that the long-term benefits of 

5 taking action vastly outweigh any short-term

6 economic concerns. 

7 Business as usual simply isn't enough 

8 anymore. And this opportunity to clean up our 

9 power plants is truly one of our final chances to 

10 avoid the devastating impacts that climate change 

11 will have on our future. 

12 My generation is counting on you to make 

13 the responsible decision. Please issue an 

14 ambitious final carbon pollution standard for 

15 existing power plants. Thank you.

16 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Robert. Next 

17 I'd like to call up, please, Coryn Wolk and Dede 

18 Smith. 

19 MR. WOLK: My name is Coryn Wolk, C-O-R20 Y-N W-O-L-K. And I represent Clean Air Council, 

21 a Pennsylvania nonprofit organization that 

22 advocates for everyone's right to breathe clean 

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1 air. 

2 The Council has serious concerns about 

3 EPA's proposed carbon rule. It is vital that EPA 

4 finally take concrete enforceable steps to 

5 restrict carbon emissions and slow climate 

6 change. However, while the carbon rule would 

7 indeed restrict carbon emissions, it pushes 

8 increased natural gas drilling as a viable 

9 alternative to burning coal. 

10 There are numerous issues with this but 

11 I'll start with the climate impacts. According 

12 to EPA's figures, at 3.2 percent leakage of 

13 methane, natural gas ceases to be better for the 

14 climate than coal. Estimates of methane leakage 

15 rates vary widely, but a recent study by Howarth

16 et al., at Cornell University, found that their 

17 own previous estimate of 3.3 methane leakage was 

18 reasonable but probably low. 

19 So already, using conservative estimates, 

20 switching to natural gas from coal provides no 

21 advantages in fighting climate change.

22 However the reality is even less 

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1 positive. The figures currently used by EPA put 

2 methane at 21 times the global warming potential 

3 of carbon dioxide over 100 year time span. 

4 However, the most recent IPCC report estimated 

5 that methane's global warming potential is 

6 actually 34 times that of carbon dioxide in the 

7 hundred year time frame. 

8 EPA has had plenty of time to update its 

9 science, as even the previous IPCC report put 

10 methane's global warming potential at 25. One 

11 wonders when EPA will choose to update the 

12 figures on which it bases such crucial 

13 calculations.

14 Furthermore, given that the next few 

15 decades are critical for stopping climate 

16 change's momentum, the shorter time frame is more 

17 relevant in choosing the course of action. The 

18 IPCC says that there is no scientific argument 

19 for preferring a hundred year measurement. In 

20 the 20 year time frame methane has 86 times the 

21 global warming potential of carbon dioxide. 

22 From the same Cornell study of methane 

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1 emissions, the influence of today's emissions on 

2 global warming 200 or 300 years into the future 

3 will largely reflect carbon dioxide and not 

4 methane, unless the emissions of methane lead to 

5 tipping points in a fundamental change in the 

6 climate system. And that could happen as early 

7 as within the next two to three decades. 

8 The inclination to switch from one finite 

9 climate forcing fossil fuel to another is already 

10 happening without EPA's encouragement. In New 

11 Jersey, because of its outside air pollution, the 

12 coal fired B.L. England Plant must either shut 

13 down or be repowered with natural gas. With the 

14 existence of renewable alternatives and New 

15 Jersey's vulnerability to climate change there 

16 should be sufficient impetus to switch from 

17 fossil fuels.

18 Instead, the state government is pushing 

19 for the construction of a natural gas pipeline 

20 through the pinelands, the pristine and priceless 

21 natural and recreational resource, in order to 

22 repower the plant with natural gas. 

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1 Natural gas extraction to fuel those 

2 plants is already happening at a frenetic place 

3 in Pennsylvania. Despite our governor's

4 opposition to this rule, the carbon rule's 

5 promotion of natural gas aligns with our state 

6 government's modus operandi. 

7 Governor Corbett's administration plans 

8 to open more public waterways to drilling and 

9 overturned a moratorium on additional gas leaks

10 as on state lands, despite warnings from previous 

11 DCNR officials that there are no areas left that 

12 could be drilled without risking serious 

13 environmental impacts. 

14 EPA is touting the public health benefits 

15 of decreased coal use, but what about the growing 

16 public health impacts from natural gas 

17 exploitation. Until you've been exposed to the 

18 realities of fossil fuel extraction it is easy to 

19 discuss them in abstract figures of prices and 

20 reserves.

21 As a Pennsylvanian active in 

22 environmental advocacy I have met people 

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1 suffering the impacts of Pennsylvania's fracking 

2 boom. Besides the people whose water supplies 

3 have been rendered nonpotable, and those who can 

4 no longer safely live in their homes because of 

5 high ambient methane and VOC levels, there are 

6 thousands of people who chose to live rural areas 

7 for the peacefulness and natural environment only 

8 to have that quiet broken by constant truck 

9 traffic, flaring, and high intensity lighting 

10 shining through their windows.

11 While the pace of natural gas drilling 

12 needs no encouragement, governmental enforcement 

13 of public health and environmental protections 

14 has lagged. Last month reports surfaced that 

15 Pennsylvania Department of Health officials were 

16 instructed to not even speak to residents 

17 concerned that their health is being impacted by 

18 natural gas drilling.

19 Last week the Office of the State Auditor 

20 General released a scathing report on 

21 Pennsylvania DEP oversight of natural gas 

22 drilling. The Auditor General compared DEP's 

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1 ability to oversee natural gas drilling to 

2 firefighters trying to put out a five alarm fire 

3 with a 20 foot garden hose. 

4 Despite longstanding concerns about 

5 public health impacts, no widespread 

6 recordkeeping or major study of health impacts of 

7 natural gas exploitation exists. 

8 Clean Air Council believes that decisive 

9 EPA action on climate change, namely limiting 

10 greenhouse gas emissions is essential. However, 

11 the proposed rule does not constitute that. EPA 

12 needs to use its authority to create and enforce 

13 regulations that will actually bring us closer to 

14 solving the climate crisis.

15 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

16 MS. SMITH: Good afternoon. My name is 

17 Dede Smith, and I'm here from Charlottesville, 

18 Virginia where I am an elected official of City 

19 Council and Vice Mayor.

20 I've come to add my voice to the chorus 

21 of concerned citizens and elected officials who 

22 support new limits on carbon pollution. As a 

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1 longtime resident of Charlottesville, home to 

2 Thomas Jefferson's Monticello, I find it fitting 

3 that in his Declaration of Independence Jefferson 

4 proclaims, "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of 

5 happiness," as three inalienable rights.

6 I say that because just last week 

7 Charlottesville was named America's Happiest 

8 City. T.J. would be proud. 

9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Congratulations.

10 MS. SMITH: Thank you.

11 We have also been named the best college 

12 town, one of the healthiest small cities, best 

13 town for food and wine lovers, best place to 

14 retire, and the list goes on and on, which is why 

15 I'm here today to support stricter regulations on 

16 existing power plants. 

17 You see, the reason Charlottesville is so 

18 happy is that we have a very high quality of 

19 life. And a big part of that is a commitment to 

20 a high quality environment. Charlottesville City 

21 Government has in the last five years, reduced 

22 our own carbon footprint by 30 percent. Even in 

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1 the face of a rising population. And we're not 

2 done yet.

3 Just weeks ago we launched an initiative 

4 called solarized Charlottesville, in which 

5 through bulk purchasing and partnerships, every 

6 new -- we can offer, excuse me, solar 

7 installations to residential homes at half the 

8 cost.

9 In our own facilities every new building 

10 is LEED certified and highly energy efficient. 

11 In addition we offer tax credits and exemptions 

12 for residential and commercial energy efficiency, 

13 reestablished a revolving loan program for 

14 commercial solar retrofits, as well as grants for 

15 new innovative projects, such as a publically 

16 available fast charge station for electric cars. 

17 All toward our goal of further reducing our local 

18 carbon footprint. 

19 And we do this because we firmly believe 

20 that our quality of life, which makes us so 

21 happy, is intricately linked to air quality. 

22 But in truth, for city government it is 

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1 not just about happiness. It's an economic issue 

2 as well. Like many cities, tourism is a major 

3 economic engine in Charlottesville, and much of 

4 our tourism depends on air quality because a lot 

5 of our tourist attractions are outdoors. If you 

6 haven't yet visited any of the 30 wineries 

7 surrounding Charlottesville, you should. And you 

8 don't even have to like wine because the views 

9 are so spectacular. Views that are dependent on 

10 clean, clear, air.

11 And if you question whether air quality 

12 matters for viewscapes, just go up to the 

13 Shenandoah National Park on a particularly smoggy 

14 day, when the dirty emissions blow in from the 

15 Midwest power plants, that limit the viewscape to 

16 just a few miles when in fact you should be able 

17 to see 100 miles.

18 But tourism isn’t the only economic 

19 reason Charlottesville needs clean air. You see, 

20 we are the home to the University of Virginia, 

21 the Commonwealth's flagship university, with its 

22 nationally recognized medical center, one of the 

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1 few tertiary hospitals in the state. UVA 

2 Hospital treats serious medical conditions, 

3 including the all too common forms of lung 

4 disease like emphysema and lung cancer, and 

5 shocking levels of chronic debilitating asthma. 

6 All life-threatening for the many UVA Hospital 

7 patients who visit Charlottesville, and all 

8 impacted by air quality.

9 And that's why Charlottesville is 

10 dedicated to doing our part to improving air 

11 quality by reducing our own carbon footprint. 

12 But of course we have no control over the coal 

13 burning power plants upwind from us. 

14 But you do. And that's why we appeal to 

15 you to put in a strong clean power plan so that 

16 we all can breathe a little easier.

17 And I've attached to my statement today, 

18 two resolutions approved unanimously by city 

19 council in support of the EPA to enforce and 

20 strengthen the Clean Air Act. Thank you very 

21 much.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. And please 

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1 submit those to the registration desk so we can 

2 include them in the record.

3 MS. SMITH: Thank you.

4 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I would 

5 like to invite up Chris Durrer and Tim Whitcomb, 

6 please. 

7 MR. WHITCOMBE: Well, my name is Timothy 

8 Whitcomb. My last name is spelled W-H-I-T-C-O-M9 B-E. 

10 I live in Henrico, Virginia, which is a 

11 suburb of Richmond. I'm a member of the Sierra 

12 Club, but today I'm speaking for myself today.

13 I would like to thank you for the 

14 opportunity to testify today. Every year coal 

15 fired power plants are dumping over 2 billion 

16 tons of dangerous carbon pollution and other 

17 pollutants into the air. These power plants are 

18 emitting carbon dioxide but they also emit soot, 

19 particulates, sulfuric acid, and heavy metals and 

20 other toxins into the air.

21 Mercury is emitted from these coal fired 

22 power plants, and mercury is known to cause 

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1 mental retardation. The Clean Power Plan 

2 proposed by President Obama and the EPA on June 

3 2nd, will slash carbon pollution from power 

4 plants and will force the phase out of a large 

5 number of coal fired power plants. 

6 As a consequence it will also prevent 

7 150,000 asthmas attacks and 6,600 premature 

8 deaths annually by the year 2030.

9 There are many people who say that 

10 restricting power plants and their emissions will 

11 be very expensive and will harm the U.S. economy. 

12 They say it will raise electric rates 

13 substantially and pose big problems for 

14 businesses and for consumers. This view ignores 

15 the fact that coal pollution in this country is 

16 currently causing more than $100 billion annually 

17 in healthcare costs. In fact I have read that 

18 the Clean Power Plan will have benefits of about 

19 $74 billion annually by 2030, where as its costs 

20 will be only $8 billion annually.

21 Richmond, Virginia has four coal fired 

22 power plants within 25 miles of the city. 

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1 There's a major coal fired power plant in 

2 Chesterfield County, and there is also a coal 

3 fired power plant on the campus of the University 

4 of Richmond. I've been told that Richmond has 

5 twice been named the asthma capitol of the United 

6 States, due to its high prevalence of asthma.

7 In July 2013 I began a walking program to 

8 help me lose weight and to improve my health. I 

9 was taking a brisk walk of about three miles each 

10 and every day.

11 Then in October 2013 I got a bad cough. 

12 My doctor diagnosed me with bronchitis. The 

13 cough was so bad that I was forced to discontinue 

14 my walking program. I was not able to walk for 

15 about six months. Thankfully I'm now doing my 

16 walk around the neighborhood again, although I'm 

17 walking at a slower pace than I had been walking 

18 last year.

19 The Hampton Roads area of Virginia is 

20 having big problems due to sea level rise as a 

21 result of global warming. I've seen a video of 

22 flooding in Norfolk. This video showed streets 

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1 and businesses and homes and cars being flooded. 

2 One young woman in the video said she was trapped 

3 in her house for a week due to the flooding. 

4 Our sailors and Naval officers live in 

5 Norfolk and thereabouts. Do we really want the 

6 homes and cars of our sailors and Naval officers 

7 being flooded on a regular basis? 

8 I ask you to implement the Clean Power 

9 Plan and in fact exceed the 30 percent reduction 

10 in carbon emissions by 2030. Global warming is a 

11 very serious and ongoing problem, and we need 

12 severe reductions in carbon emissions as soon as 

13 possible. 

14 I would say that we need to reduce carbon 

15 emissions by at least 50 percent by the year 

16 2030. I say this for these reasons. Global 

17 warming is causing more powerful storms and these 

18 enhanced hurricanes and tornadoes are costing us 

19 lives and are costing FEMA and state and local 

20 emergency agencies a lot of money.

21 Also this country has already reduced 

22 carbon emissions by 12 to 15 percent since 2005, 

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1 and this shows that large levels of reduction are 

2 in fact possible. 

3 Also the EPA estimates for greater 

4 efficiency and for levels -- and for more 

5 alternative energies in the 50 states appear to 

6 be low, these estimates. We can put many many 

7 more wind turbines and also solar panels out 

8 there.

9 And also if we have a level of carbon 

10 reduction at 50 percent, then the rest of the 

11 world will really notice. The USA will be 

12 setting a great example and the rest of the world 

13 will then be more likely to follow our example. 

14 Thank you for your time and for your 

15 consideration.

16 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Tim.

17 MR. DURRER: Okay. Good afternoon. My 

18 name is Chris, with a C, Durrer, D as in David, 

19 U-R-R-E-R. I live in Richmond, Virginia, 

20 affiliated with the Sierra Club, and I'm just 

21 talking from some personal experiences. 

22 I was born at UVA Hospital. I'm not sure 

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1 it's flagship because Virginia Commonwealth is 

2 moving that way too now. 

3 But anyway, I was born in that area. My 

4 grandparents had a farm in Schuyler, which is the 

5 southern part of Albemarle County, Walton's 

6 Mountain Museum, and some things like that. So I 

7 grew up summers there, working and having fun and 

8 things like that.

9 And over time grandparent's farm, they're 

10 on a small basis, 87 and a half acres, house, 

11 basic farmhouse that was a log cabin converted, 

12 they farmed there from the '30s to about the 

13 '70s, and my sister and I were able to take over 

14 the farm and we have a tree farm there.

15 And I noticed over there, with the 

16 drought, about 10 years ago, something like that, 

17 it went for four and a half years in Central 

18 Virginia. Green Creek, which borders the 

19 property, was totally dry. My sister and I 

20 walked for about a mile in the bed there of that 

21 creek. That creek is pretty big. It's 25 feet 

22 wide when it's at full capacity. If flows into 

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1 the Rockfish River, which flows into the James 

2 River. So there was a lot of decrease there at 

3 that time. So really concerned about that and 

4 they were calling and nobody in the area had ever 

5 heard of that happening, so it was at least a 500 

6 year flood. I mean, a 500 year drought, if not 

7 more there.

8 So that's an example. I work in 

9 healthcare, healthcare management in the public 

10 health hospitals. I was in Eastern North 

11 Carolina for quite a time and we had Fran and 

12 Floyd come through there. Wilson was the place I 

13 worked the hospital, and it was a devastating 

14 effect for several days. Our hospital served 

15 coffee, breakfast, and food, because we were 

16 basically the only place that had backup 

17 generators. And that was like one or two years 

18 apart, Fran and Floyd. And of course it hit the 

19 whole coast there, of North Carolina. So that's 

20 just an example of my experiences there. And of 

21 course you have a lot of loss with the flood 

22 insurance, the loss of work, the loss of housing, 

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1 areas like that.

2 And then lastly, having been a healthcare 

3 administrator, public health hospitals, I see the 

4 increase in asthma, allergies, and lung cancer as 

5 a result of carbon pollution. So we appreciate 

6 you addressing this problem. We need to move 

7 forward and at least set some goal because I 

8 don't think it's going to get any better the way 

9 we are going.

10 So that's basically what I have to say. 

11 Appreciate the opportunity, but just have one 

12 kind of a personal example. One of my relatives 

13 traveled to China recently on business, and when 

14 he returned I said, what's the one word that 

15 would describe your visit or China, things like 

16 that. And he said, S-M-O-G, smog. I go, oh my 

17 gosh. 

18 So let's don't move like China. We love 

19 the folks there, but we don't need that. 

20 Thank you for the opportunity.

21 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I'd like 

22 to invite up Erin Fagan and Ryan Arnold, please. 

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1 MS. FAGAN: Hi. My name is Erin Fagan, 

2 E-R-I-N F-A-G-A-N. And I'm here today from 

3 Norfolk, Virginia. I came with the Sierra Club, 

4 and also as the sustainability coordinator for 

5 Old Dominion University. But right now I am just 

6 speaking as a human being who has asthma.

7 When I was very young I started 

8 developing respiratory issues when I lived in 

9 Dover, Delaware. And the doctors at Kent General 

10 Hospital decided that it was because of the air 

11 pollution there.

12 So my family, my mom and my dad, when 

13 they were just about my age between 22 and 24, 

14 they had to relocate and so they came to 

15 Virginia, strictly because I absolutely could not 

16 breathe there with all of the pollution.

17 So fast-forward to now, when I'm living 

18 in Norfolk attending Old Dominion. I have a 

19 giant coal pier that is essentially in my 

20 backyard. I'm glad that somebody has already 

21 referenced all of the flooding in Norfolk, 

22 because I have waded home through knee-deep water 

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1 regularly. It only takes a little bit of a rain 

2 storm to do that, and through chest deep water a 

3 couple of times during hurricanes.

4 My house has been flooded before, my car 

5 has been eaten up by the brackish flood water, 

6 and I have kayaked down the middle of Hampton 

7 Boulevard, which is our main street, multiple 

8 times. And this is definitely everyday life in 

9 Norfolk.

10 In my house I can wipe my fingers across 

11 my house on the outside and there is coal soot 

12 covering my hand after I do that. In fact, I 

13 already had to leave Room B, on the other side 

14 because I needed to curb an oncoming asthma 

15 attack while I was here.

16 And that's just a very normal thing in 

17 Norfolk, and really all of the cities in this 

18 area that I have experienced. So today I'm here 

19 in support of the Clean Power Plan. I know that 

20 as a nation we pride ourselves on being fast 

21 acting and innovative, and this is really one of 

22 those opportunities when we can set an example 

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1 that we can be proud of and that others can 

2 hopefully follow. Thank you.

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

4 MR. ARNOLD: My name is Ryan Arnold, R-Y5 A-N A-R-N-O-L-D. Thank you for the chance to 

6 speak here today. 

7 Climate change is a threat to national 

8 and global security, a threat to public health, 

9 and a threat to our economy according to senior 

10 military leaders, the CDC, and financial leaders 

11 including former Treasury Secretaries. 

12 A recent report from the American 

13 Association for the advancement of science sums 

14 it up this way; we are at risk of pushing our 

15 climate system toward abrupt, unpredictable, and 

16 potentially irreversible changes with highly 

17 damaging impacts. The sooner we act, the lower 

18 the cost, and the lower the risk.

19 Now this is not news. I've been hearing 

20 most of it since I was in elementary school in 

21 the '80s. I am deeply disappointed that in all 

22 this time our government, and especially 

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1 Congress, has done so little to solve this urgent 

2 problem. That's why the EPA's proposal to limit 

3 carbon pollution from power plants is a welcomed 

4 piece of good news. I know that we can end our 

5 production of greenhouse gasses and secure a long 

6 and prosperous future. 

7 What worries me is that although we've 

8 long had a scientific consensus on the causes and 

9 risks of climate change, we don't have political 

10 or social consensus. 

11 A recent Gallup Poll found fewer than 60 

12 percent of Americans even believe it's caused by 

13 human activity, considering the magnitude of the 

14 threats climate change poses, we should be able 

15 to come together and demand solutions. Lack of 

16 widespread agreement on the urgency, or even 

17 existence of the problem, hinders our ability to 

18 enact comprehensive remedies, or even to follow 

19 through on the good solutions that are already 

20 being proposed and implemented.

21 Sociologists tell us that the idea of 

22 climate change raises uncomfortable emotions in 

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1 people, feelings like guilt, fear, helplessness, 

2 and maybe denial or delay is a natural response. 

3 I once met a guy who agreed that climate change 

4 is a manmade problem, but was convinced there is 

5 nothing we can do about it.

6 The say a good strategy to overcome that 

7 kind of denial is to bring messages of hope. We 

8 can make a difference. We can ensure a bright 

9 future. 

10 I think one message we were hearing for a 

11 while, that the thing to do is change our light 

12 bulbs and keep our tires inflated wasn't really 

13 working because we know the challenge is so much 

14 bigger than what we can do as individuals. We 

15 need government to set fair rules and credible 

16 plans to get our emissions down so our quality of 

17 life can stay up. That's what can give us hope; 

18 give us reason to believe that we can face the 

19 unpleasant realities of climate change and 

20 succeed in preventing the serious threats.

21 What I hope is that the EPA's plans to 

22 reduce greenhouse gas emissions can help spark 

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1 discussion among Americans about climate change, 

2 which has been on the backburner for too many of 

3 us for too long, and that those conversations 

4 will lead to greater awareness and understanding, 

5 greater sense of urgency and shared resolve to 

6 sustain our way of life for a long time to come. 

7 Thank you.

8 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I'd like 

9 to invite up Laura Kaplann and Coralie Pryde. 

10 MS. KAPLAN: Good afternoon. My name is 

11 Laura Michelle Kaplann. L-A-U-R-A, the last 

12 name, K-A-P-L-A-N.

13 I would like to start by saying that I am 

14 an attorney licensed in Pennsylvania and D.C. and

15 I am resident of Delaware and a member of the 

16 Executive Committee of the Delaware Sierra Club. 

17 But I'm here today, speaking on my own.

18 I am speaking in favor of the proposed 

19 rule. I have focused my attention on 

20 environmental law and climate change and was an 

21 intern at the Environmental and Natural Resources 

22 Clinic at Widener University. I had the 

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1 opportunity to study the Clean Air Act and 

2 Federal Energy Laws in cases dealing with air 

3 pollution among other issues.

4 It is incumbent upon the United States by 

5 the EPA to lead the way in reducing carbon 

6 emissions. At the present time many states have 

7 individual plans, but some do not. Pollution 

8 doesn't stop at the state line, but rather 

9 spreads out. Similarly the effects of global 

10 warming affect everyone, not just residents of a 

11 certain state or country.

12 These proliferating effects are called 

13 externalities. For this reason it is imperative

14 to have a strong nationwide and and worldwide 

15 sustained effort to reduce carbon emissions. 

16 Climate change is real. It is caused by human 

17 beings, and only human beings can reverse it. We 

18 can do so by seizing this pivotal moment in the 

19 history of environmental regulations, excuse me, 

20 and by having a united vision.

21 There have been new signs of cooperation 

22 among the emerging nations and progress is being 

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1 made. The United States must move forward 

2 quickly on this charge; must be a role model to 

3 the world, not a laggard, and must not delay the 

4 proposed action any longer.

5 I urge the EPA to promulgate the 

6 emissions standards that President Obama's 

7 Climate Action Plan calls for, and to strengthen 

8 them by reducing the target date and the maximum 

9 level of emissions.

10 Prior to 2007 only emissions which were 

11 included in the list of qualified air pollutants, 

12 as defined by the Clean Air Act, could be 

13 regulated by the EPA. The EPA claimed it lacked 

14 authority to regulate carbon dioxide because Co2 

15 is not considered to be an air pollutant.

16 However, in the landmark case of 

17 Massachusetts vs. EPA in 2007, the Supreme Court 

18 ruled that Co2 did indeed qualify as an air 

19 pollutant. 

20 The EPA then showed that human health is 

21 endangered in its endangerment finding. 

22 And finally -- and showed that Co2 

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1 emissions pose a hazard to human health which 

2 opened the way finally for the present mandate to 

3 the EPA to propose emission standards to regulate 

4 power plant emissions of carbon dioxide.

5 The proposed rule which is to be 

6 promulgated by the EPA is important because it 

7 targets existing power plants, which create the 

8 largest single source of Co2 emissions, between 

9 30 and 40 percent of our nation's carbon 

10 emissions. 

11 Section 111 of the Clean Air Act gives 

12 the EPA the responsibility to set maximum 

13 emission standards or an emission guideline 

14 performance for categories of stationary sources 

15 that contribute to dangerous air pollution.

16 There are approximately 1,000 existing 

17 fossil fuel fired plants, and old inefficient 

18 power plants, 63 percent of them which are 40 

19 years old or older. About 3,000 are covered by 

20 this rule.

21 The proposal requires states to create 

22 state implementation plans to put forth a best 

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1 system of emission reduction, BSER, for existing 

2 sources. If the EPA does not approve the state 

3 plan a federal plan will be issued. 

4 One way of reducing emissions is by 

5 increasing the efficiency of power plants, which 

6 will not only reduce emissions but will also 

7 decrease electric consumption and encourage 

8 alternative energy sources such as wind farms and 

9 solar panels.

10 Regarding the cost, the economics 

11 indicate that the benefits outweigh the cost by 

12 far according to a report by the National 

13 Resources Defense Council in 2013.

14 The modeling analysis production shown by 

15 the NRDC study would reduce emissions by 26 

16 percent from 2005 levels by 2020, and by 34 

17 percent in 2025. This seems like too little too 

18 late. Nonetheless health benefits will be 

19 achieved as a byproduct of emissions reductions. 

20 Not only carbon dioxide emissions but also sulfur 

21 dioxide will be reduced. Mercury will be reduced 

22 by 27 percent. There will be a 22 percent 

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1 reduction of nitrogen oxides, and a reduction of 

2 soot by 25 percent by 2020. These pollutants 

3 have been found to contribute to high rates of 

4 asthma, other lung disease, and heart attacks.

5 In deed in Delaware Attorney General Beau

6 Biden pointed out that the health of Delawarians 

7 is threatened by harmful pollution produced in 

8 other states and carried here by wind currents. 

9 Likewise, Delaware Governor Jack Markell noted 

10 that more than 90 percent of Delaware's dirty 

11 pollution comes from out of states sources and 

12 the impact often results in air that does not 

13 meet healthy standards, which includes the 

14 formation of ozone.

15 Not surprisingly the American Lung 

16 Association has given Delaware an F for its 

17 levels of ozone, and a D in particle pollution. 

18 I personally know that a disproportionate 

19 percentage of children and adults in Delaware 

20 suffer from asthma and related health problems.

21 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

22 here today.

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1 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

2 MS. PRYDE: My name is Coralie Pryde, C3 O-R-A-L-I-E and P-R-Y-D-E. 

4 I'm also from Delaware. I'm pleased that 

5 the EPA is beginning to tackle this very 

6 important problem about carbon emissions from 

7 existing power plants. I think that some of the 

8 rules make very good common sense to me, looking 

9 for efficiency in both power production and power 

10 use, is just good common sense. 

11 I think that the goals put forth by this 

12 program can be readily attained, and I too wish 

13 that perhaps they were a little bit higher 

14 because I am very concerned about the increasing 

15 effects we see from global warming.

16 Perhaps the most serious problem I have 

17 with the plan is that because it's only measuring 

18 the carbon dioxide burned at the power plant, it 

19 may have a tendency to increase the use of fuels 

20 that burn cleanly, but only -- that have a very 

21 large carbon and environmental footprint when 

22 they're extracted and when they're transported. 

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1 Chief among that, of course we can 

2 mention the methane which is coming from wells 

3 that are horizontally fractured or fracked to get 

4 gas or oil.

5 We know that the methane is being emitted 

6 in very large amounts from some wells and less 

7 from others, and we really have no good -- we 

8 have a few good measurements on that and they 

9 show such scatter that we've clearly got to get a 

10 lot more measurements to really understand the 

11 magnitude of the problem.

12 We also know that methane is emitted 

13 while the gas is transported through old 

14 pipelines and a lot at compressors. This all is 

15 adding greatly to global warming. 

16 I know that the EPA's -- the gas 

17 companies haven't really kept any track of these 

18 losses so they could monetize them so it's up to 

19 the EPA then, I think, to find good ways to get 

20 measurements. 

21 I know we've predicted that the gas usage 

22 will peak and then begin to decrease in the 

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1 coming decades, but there still will be quite a 

2 bit of gas obtained through drilling. And 

3 furthermore, when the old wells go out of service 

4 and are capped up, they're not going to cease to 

5 emit methane. Any studies have shown that when 

6 you cap a well, it's usually done by putting 

7 cement in, some of these wells begin to leak 

8 methane and other materials from the fracking 

9 process almost immediately. 

10 And it's inevitable that the cement put 

11 in there will fail sometime in the 50 to 100 year 

12 plan. And we really, again, have absolutely no 

13 idea, is this a big problem, a medium problem? 

14 It's going to last 100 years or 1,000 years. So 

15 those are concerns.

16 I guess I'm very concerned with the 

17 problems with fuel extraction, just based on my 

18 own life where I've seen a lot of the problems. 

19 I was raised in a very small coal mining town in 

20 Wyoming, and the coal was used -- all the men 

21 there worked in the mines and the coal was used 

22 for the Union Pacific Railroad. We didn't worry 

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1 about burning the coal because the soot got blown 

2 away by the wind and nobody told us that carbon 

3 dioxide was bad. 

4 The one problem we did know is miners had 

5 black lung disease and some of them were killed 

6 or badly injured when the mine caved in. 

7 These mines closed in the '50s when the 

8 railroad started using diesel instead of coal. 

9 But within a decade or so they were reopened 

10 because we had learned that that coal was low in 

11 sulfur, and therefore is a good answer to acid 

12 rain. Now Wyoming produces 40 percent of the 

13 coal used in the U.S., mostly by strip-mining, 

14 which has its effects.

15 As a child I visited the mountains near 

16 Pinedale, Wyoming and there are beautiful pine 

17 forests and clear lakes there. It's a great 

18 relief from getting off the windy desert I lived 

19 on. I remember the air was just crystal and you 

20 could easily see 100 miles, or it seemed like 

21 forever. 

22 Now, those mountains are near what I've 

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1 learned to call the Pinedale anticline. This is 

2 where there's extensive gas extraction, about 

3 1,500 wells. That crystalline air has turned to 

4 something as smoggy now as Los Angeles. 

5 As a child I also visited Pavilion, 

6 Wyoming. My father worked near Pavilion for an 

7 oil company in the 1930s. Apparently there was 

8 very little damage from that early extraction. 

9 It was quite pristine. Now, Pavilion, after 10 

10 years of fracking, the water is considered bad 

11 enough to make Pavilion considered as a superfund 

12 site. 

13 So I've seen all of the approaches that 

14 we've had to getting fuels. I have great 

15 problems. I think the EPA needs to consider 

16 these and also to help demonstrate that other 

17 plans that would use clean energy and renewable 

18 energy, may have lesser environmental effects. 

19 Only EPA has the power to look at this data 

20 nationwide and then make regulations nationwide. 

21 I thank you.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I would 

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1 like to call up Brenna Perez and John Comella, 

2 please. 

3 MS. PEREZ: My name is Brenna Perez, 

4 Brenna, B-R-E-N-N-A, Perez, P-E-R-E-Z. 

5 I'm a student at Old Dominion University 

6 of Norfolk, Virginia. Norfolk is located in a 

7 coastal region of Virginia that is rated second 

8 only to New Orleans as the area most vulnerable 

9 to sea level rise in the United States.

10 As a resident of a region that is feeling 

11 the direct effects of climate change every day I 

12 am very happy to see the Environmental Protection 

13 Agency taking action through the Clean Power 

14 Plan.

15 The Clean Power Plan is a groundbreaking 

16 and necessary step in addressing climate change. 

17 Power plants are responsible for 40 percent of 

18 the carbon pollution in the United States, making 

19 them the single largest source of carbon 

20 pollution in the country.

21 We have been complacent towards the major 

22 cause of climate change for too long. Carbon 

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1 emission reeducation is a much needed catalyst to 

2 make energy efficiency and renewable energy a 

3 priority for the U.S.

4 Virginia is becoming increasingly 

5 vulnerable to sea level rise, and the devastating 

6 effects of climate change are already having 

7 severe implications for the region. 

8 Climate change is not only affecting 

9 Americans. It is a global issue. In response 

10 American must become a leader in taking action to 

11 reduce carbon emissions. I look forward to 

12 seeing our country on the forefront of creating a 

13 clean and sustainable future. I feel 

14 groundbreaking action like the EPA's Clean Power 

15 Plan will play a significant role in creating 

16 that future for our generation and generations to 

17 come. 

18 Thank you.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: If I may I'd like 

21 to read the statement of John Comella who has 

22 health issues that make it difficult to project 

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1 his voice. Is that all right? Do you need my 

2 name?

3 MR. NIEBLING: No.

4 MR. COMELLA: My name is John Comella. 

5 J-O-H-N C-O-M-E-L-L-A. My wife and I have lived 

6 in Philadelphia for more than three years. 

7 Before that we lived just south of Concord, 

8 Massachusetts, about 25 miles west of Boston. 

9 Now we live in a co-op in Center City, 

10 Philadelphia. 

11 I strongly support the EPA's plan to 

12 tighten emission standards for existing fossil 

13 fuel power plants for two reasons. Number one, 

14 my wife has asthma and it has gotten 

15 significantly worse since we moved to 

16 Philadelphia. She spends more time coughing and 

17 having trouble breathing than she ever did in 

18 Massachusetts.

19 Fortunately we found an apartment 

20 building which has pretty good air quality, but 

21 we also have our own air filtering device which 

22 we run when conditions are really bad. 

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1 My second reason for supporting tighter 

2 emission standards is that we have two wonderful 

3 daughters in their late 30s. If the world does 

4 not get its act together on climate change within 

5 the next 15 to 25 years my daughters will almost 

6 certainly see an extreme global warming 

7 catastrophe. We will have passed the point of no 

8 return on global warming. Then most of the 

9 population of the Earth, especially the poor and 

10 vulnerable will die or become seriously disabled 

11 from extreme weather and grotesquely foul air and 

12 water. 

13 Only the very wealthiest will be able to 

14 shield themselves from these effects. But that 

15 terrible damage will also destroy the economy of 

16 the world and that will seriously affect even the 

17 wealth. However, by then, it will be far too 

18 late to do anything about it.

19 Thank you for your attention. 

20 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much. Next 

21 I'd like to ask up Susan Miller and Tara Losoff, 

22 please. 

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1 MS. LOSOFF: Hi. Thank you. Thank you 

2 for your time today. My name is Tara Losoff. 

3 I'm the National Outreach Manager with the 

4 National Wildlife Federation and you've heard a 

5 lot about what that organization is and kind of 

6 what we care about, but in my role here in D.C., 

7 a lot of what I do is reach out to people and 

8 connect with our affiliates and partners and 

9 individuals and activists around the country and 

10 hear their stories and try to relay those stories 

11 to the policy makers, and vice-versa, try to 

12 translate some of the policies that are impacting 

13 them at home.

14 So, you know, you've probably heard a lot 

15 of stories from NWF affiliates and some of our 

16 activists, and I have one more here that I want 

17 to share with you. It's from Todd Tanner, that's 

18 Todd Tanner, T-A-N-N-E-R, and he's the Founder 

19 and Chairman of Conservation Hawks. A group of 

20 hunters and anglers who care about protecting the 

21 natural world for the next generation of 

22 sportsmen. And he asked me to read this 

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1 testimony for him.

2 So my name is Todd Tanner, and I live in 

3 Big Fork, Montana. I'm a sportsman, a hunter, 

4 and an angler, and as well, a longtime outdoor 

5 writer and the President of Conservation Hawks. 

6 I'd like to take this opportunity to comment on 

7 the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan.

8 None of us like expensive unnecessary

9 regulations, yet at the same time the vast 

10 majority of Americans do support clean air and 

11 water, healthy landscapes and a strong, robust

12 economy. 

13 We also want to give our kids and 

14 grandkids the best possible shot at a prosperous 

15 future. Unfortunately climate change is 

16 beginning to slam the United States. In the west 

17 we're seeing extreme heat, mega droughts, dying 

18 forests, and catastrophic wildfires. Back east 

19 it's sea level rise and crazy storms, and major 

20 flooding and lots and lots of hungry disease 

21 carrying ticks and mosquitoes.

22 The science on climate change is clear 

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1 and unequivocal. The fossil fuels we're burning 

2 are changing the chemistry of our atmosphere, 

3 they're acidifying our oceans, and they're 

4 warming our planet. And if we're going to have 

5 any hope at all of defending our American way of 

6 life we need to reduce our Co2 emissions 

7 dramatically and make an immediate shift to clean 

8 renewable energy.

9 There's one final point -- let's see. 

10 With that in mind I support the EPA's proposed 

11 Clean Power Plan. We need to lower carbon 

12 emissions from existing power plants and kick our 

13 addiction to fossil fuels. It's the only way 

14 we're going to hold on to our hunting and 

15 fishing, or give our kids and grandkids a shot at 

16 a healthy prosperous future.

17 And there's one final point I'd like to 

18 make. These EPA regulations would not be 

19 necessary if Congress was doing its job. 

20 Unfortunately Congress has been missing in action 

21 on climate change and that means we have no 

22 choice but to rely on the EPA to reduce carbon 

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1 emissions from power plants and other major 

2 sources of pollution.

3 The climate dubs and climate deniers in 

4 Congress need to do their jobs as well. It's 

5 time to set aside all the antiscience rhetoric 

6 and the partisan politics and defend America 

7 against the single largest threat that we all 

8 face. We have to address global warming and we 

9 have to do it now. Thank you.

10 MR. NIEBLING: Okay. 

11 MS. MILLER: Good afternoon. My name is 

12 Susan Miller, S-U-S-A-N M-I-L-L-E-R. And I am 

13 the Vice President for Environment Health and 

14 Safety for the Brick Industry Association. 

15 I offer these comments on behalf of BIA 

16 and its member manufacturers and distributors of 

17 structural clay and clay brick products. We're a 

18 small trade association representing an industry 

19 of mostly small businesses as defined by the 

20 Small Business Administration. Many of our 

21 companies have been around since the late 1800s 

22 and many remain family owned.

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1 I'm here today speaking for my industry 

2 because we want to be around for the next 100 

3 years and more.

4 While our industry did not make it into 

5 any of EPA's analysis about the impacts of this 

6 rule, make no mistake, we are impacted by it. 

7 Our biggest concerns mirror those you're going to 

8 hear from other industries, energy costs, natural 

9 gas costs, and the uncertainty of exactly what 

10 the outside the fence mandate could mean to my 

11 plants.

12 The manufacture of clay brick requires 

13 energy to transform raw materials into a durable, 

14 sustainable, long-lasting, quality building 

15 material. Clay brick manufacturers and 

16 distributors nationwide operate in a sustainable 

17 manner while committed to doing our share to 

18 minimize environmental impact and to protect our 

19 employees' health and safety.

20 The clay brick industry understands the 

21 importance of reducing greenhouse gasses and 

22 other air emissions, and is committed to measures 

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1 advancing this goal. This includes minimizing 

2 energy consumption, pursuing alternative energy 

3 sources, and improving manufacturing processes 

4 and technologies. We share a lot of the same 

5 views of the people who are quote, on the other 

6 side of the aisle. We just have some concerns 

7 over the vastness of this rule. 

8 The clay brick industry also encourages 

9 balanced policies that protect the environment 

10 while allowing reasonable economic growth.

11 Our industry wants to remain a part of 

12 our nation's economy. To do that we need to 

13 survive the next few years. We simply can't jump 

14 to 2025 or 2030 and look at our viability then, 

15 or energy prices then. We must survive each and 

16 every year in between. We implore you to look 

17 beyond select target years as you evaluate the 

18 energy costs, the impacts of this rule.

19 As you may impact a large number of small 

20 businesses far more than our small industry, we 

21 would love to encourage a SBREFA panel be held. 

22 Please look at every year and make sure 

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1 the impacts are reasonable, have a positive 

2 impact commensurate with your costs, and still 

3 allow our economy to continue with the slow 

4 recovery that we all hope we're seeing. 

5 The impacts of natural gas prices and 

6 availability must also be included and have a 

7 huge impact on our industry. The predominate

8 fuel we use is natural gas to fire our kilns. 

9 Have you evaluated the impacts on industries like 

10 ours of a proposal that is based in part on the 

11 assumption that utilities can increase natural 

12 gas use? 

13 We fear it will affect demand and 

14 therefore prices and possibly availability. This 

15 isn't the only rule that will do that. Another 

16 part of your organization is considering national 

17 ambient air quality changes in the Ozone Rule. 

18 That will also affect natural gas and 

19 availability.

20 But I must say that one of the questions 

21 I receive most from my members when they hear 

22 about it, is this outside the fence mandate, and 

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1 what it might mean to an industry like ours. 

2 This rule is huge, it's hard to get through in 

3 the time we have to give you good comments. 

4 Remember, this rule does not come to us in a 

5 vacuum void of any other regulations that are 

6 coming our way for our industry.

7 On that note I'm going to take just one 

8 minute. I see it's still green. To address one 

9 overall concern I have. 

10 As I've stated, this rule is not the only 

11 rule that will impact our industry. In fact, 

12 just this year our industry will have two major 

13 rule proposals, one from OSHA that's already come 

14 out, and one from EPA that directly impact brick 

15 manufacturing. You can say, and many in your 

16 agency have said, that you cannot concern 

17 yourself with that. And I understand it's not a 

18 simple thing to evaluate multiple regulations on 

19 an industry. But like I tell my middle schooler, 

20 just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not the 

21 right thing to do.

22 The ability for an industry to absorb the 

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1 costs of one regulation is impacted by the money 

2 that we have to spend to comply with another. We 

3 do have finite resources. We do run out. If EPA 

4 and other government agencies continue to take a 

5 pigeon-holed look at the impacts of their 

6 specific regulation or ignore impacts of their 

7 regulation on industries such as ours, 

8 manufacturing in the U.S. doesn't stand a chance.

9 Adequate, affordable, and reliable energy 

10 supplies, especially natural gas, are essential 

11 to the growth and viability of the U.S. economy. 

12 The clay brick industry is no different. 

13 Reliable and affordable energy is critical for 

14 brick manufacturers to continue to produce 

15 quality clay product -- quality clay brick 

16 products that consumers and builders rely on for 

17 new construction.

18 We've all heard those that say this 

19 administration does not care if manufacturing 

20 disappears in America. Please prove them wrong. 

21 Thank you for taking time to listen to 

22 me.

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1 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. I'm going to 

2 go ahead and call two more people and maybe 

3 propose we take a brief break to let our valiant 

4 court reporter and a couple of the panelists 

5 stretch their legs since we'll be at about the 

6 half hour mark. 

7 So with that, Marie Stella and Naomi 

8 Edelson, please. 

9 MS. STELLA: Hello.

10 MR. NIEBLING: Hi.

11 MS. STELLA: My name is Marie Stella and 

12 I'm from Chesterfield County, Virginia. I live 

13 in a county and state that's constitution and 

14 most regulations have never found a tax break 

15 they didn't love, and a regulation that they did 

16 love. As a result we bear the brunt of rising 

17 waters in the southern parts of our state, in 

18 Norfolk, Virginia Beach, we are the asthma 

19 capitol of the world. Of the United States 

20 anyway. And we are consistently in the 10 

21 percent of the wealthiest state, and consistently 

22 in the 10 percent of the state that provides the 

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1 least benefits to our citizens. 

2 And to show you an example of the 

3 problems that we're faced with, I'd like to talk 

4 to you a little bit about a problem that we have 

5 in Chesterfield County with fly ash. For the 

6 last six months or so we've been fighting the 

7 import of fly ash that would be used to build 

8 berms, to augment our soil that we buy for, you 

9 know, for our products that we use on our ground. 

10 And over 250 people came to our county to 

11 complain about this, to complaint about the water 

12 in the creeks being polluted by the toxic 

13 chemicals in the fly ash and nothing has been 

14 done about it.

15 Eventually what happened is the 

16 Department of Energy Quality decided that fly ash 

17 is not a toxic and will not hurt us and will 

18 allow the company to continue to import this.

19 The reason we have to ask ourselves that 

20 besides this, our airways are flooded, our 

21 newspapers are flooded with articles and 

22 commercials basically talking about the nonsense 

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1 about global warming, nonsense about pollution 

2 and that if we had regulations we're going to 

3 affect jobs, benefits, pensions, et cetera, and 

4 there really isn't a way or a foundation that's 

5 helpful to us in educating people about the 

6 dangers of the environment so that you hear these 

7 names repeated over and over again.

8 And so I'm here really to say thank you, 

9 EPA, because frequently we look at our situation 

10 and say, who speaks for us? There is absolutely 

11 no one that speaks for us and citizens by 

12 themselves do not have the power anymore, to be 

13 effective. As a lobby we're too divided and so I 

14 want to say that we're so grateful for the 

15 President for mandating a ruling, and that to 

16 tell you and EPA to be faithful to us, to defend 

17 us, to be there for us, because we have no one 

18 else. 

19 So I hope you realize -- I know what a 

20 hard job you have, and that you're constantly 

21 being denigrated. But I want you to remember 

22 that citizens, tax payers, children, we all 

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1 depend on you because we have no one else. So I 

2 hope when you will hold -- be faithful to us and 

3 know that we support you and we believe in you 

4 and that we need you. Okay. Thank you.

5 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

6 MS. EDELSON: Hi. I'm Naomi Edelson and 

7 I live in Tacoma Park, Maryland, near Sligo 

8 Creek. And I am speaking in support of the 

9 carbon rule. And I also want to thank the EPA 

10 and President Obama for creating a rule to reduce 

11 carbon pollution. I'm grateful grateful to you 

12 for that.

13 I am a wildlife biologist. I work for 

14 the National Wildlife Federation. I'm a bird 

15 watcher. I'm a biker; bicyclist. This is a bike 

16 accident. But a broken arm that's healing well. 

17 But I am a member of the Adat Shalom Synagogue, 

18 among other things. And I'd like to talk a 

19 little bit about each one and how it relates to 

20 climate change and the need to reduce carbon 

21 pollution.

22 First, as a wildlife biologist, which I 

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1 have worked in this field for over 30 years, and 

2 there is no question that the climate is changing 

3 and impacting wildlife now. But I work not on 

4 the mitigation side, but on the adaptation side. 

5 We're working with many many government agencies, 

6 including the EPA and other conservation 

7 organizations to help prepare and cope with these 

8 impacts. And we've just published a guide called 

9 Climate Smart Conservation, Putting Adaptation 

10 Principles into Practice. 

11 And this is all because the climate 

12 change is impacting us now and these agencies 

13 will have had to manage millions of acres of 

14 land, and the people who care about -- you know, 

15 enjoy the outdoors and benefit from the outdoors, 

16 all of these lands and waters now have to be 

17 managed with this in mind. They can no longer be 

18 managed by looking at the past and thinking about 

19 how we used to be in restoring habitat to, you 

20 know, pre European settler time. It's all about 

21 thinking forward and what is the climate going to 

22 be like in the next 50 and 100 years. And that 

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1 is a sea change for the Wildlife Conservation 

2 Movement and other conservationists to really 

3 grapple with how do we deal with this. 

4 So we had to put out an over, you know, 

5 300 page document and we're doing trainings all 

6 across the country, and it's a very big deal. 

7 And there is some hope. We can make a 

8 difference. We can make a difference for 

9 wildlife and let them continue to thrive. 

10 But there will be a tipping point. You 

11 know, we are having the impacts now. We need to 

12 -- if we can stop the carbon pollution, then we 

13 have a fighting chance, and we can implement 

14 these adaptation principles and practices. But 

15 if we do not do that then we will reach a tipping 

16 point where there's no going back and it's going 

17 to be catastrophic and we don't know what we'll 

18 end up with, which wildlife will make it. Some 

19 will make it and many won't. 

20 And the wildlife that we depend on for 

21 food, for enjoyment, and for many other things, 

22 the different things that they provide to us by 

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1 helping us clean the air and clean the water, 

2 will no longer be available to us. 

3 So while I believe that we have to take 

4 action now to do something about the current 

5 state, we need to stop the future carbon 

6 pollution so that we're not creating it so bad 

7 that there's no going back.

8 Now I want to say something as a mother. 

9 My son has just turned seven. And when he was as 

10 young as five he and his friend, two years older 

11 than him, came up with an idea. They want to be 

12 inventors when they grow up. They came up with 

13 an idea because they heard me talking about 

14 climate change and they decided they would create 

15 this sky cleaner. No kidding. They have 

16 decided, they're adamant, they've held on to 

17 this. He's just turned seven, so for two years. 

18 And they have this idea that they're going to 

19 have a little machine that goes up in the air 

20 like a vacuum cleaner and cleans the air. And 

21 they're going to attach it to clouds, and 

22 they're going to attach it to the back of cars. 

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1 I mean, they are serious. They really think this 

2 is what's going to do it.

3 And so of course I encourage them, and 

4 they think they're going to make even a lot of 

5 money and do good things for the environment. 

6 But this is like what our children are growing up 

7 thinking the world is like, and they can't 

8 understand -- they routinely say to me, how come 

9 they don't just stop it. Like, they don't 

10 understand, how can this still be going on. 

11 And it's a hard question to answer, 

12 right? I mean, I know what I think the answers 

13 are, but it's a very complicated thing to talk 

14 with children about. And so it's a sad state 

15 that my son is thinking that that's his primary 

16 invention in life is the sky cleaner. 

17 But I do hope he can create it because we 

18 will still need it. 

19 And then I want to say as a member of 

20 Adat Shalom reconstructionist synagogue, and 

21 based in the Glen Echo area, Bethesda, we have a 

22 green building, we have a green rabbi. You know, 

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1 the Jewish faith talks about Tikkun Olam. And 

2 it's about taking care of the Earth. And that's 

3 our responsibility, and all faiths have something 

4 about that. And that is our responsibility. And 

5 at Adat Shalom we're creating in our storm water 

6 basin, which was created for the 100 year flood, 

7 which is happening -- we're filling it up now on 

8 a greater frequency than we ever did, we are 

9 creating wildlife habitat. We're taking out the 

10 turf grass and putting in native plants and we 

11 are trying to -- native plants typically hold 

12 more carbon and hold more water. And we're 

13 trying to create this program, Sacred Grounds, 

14 all over the country to do at the churches, 

15 synagogues, and mosques everywhere to help deal 

16 with climate change.

17 And I see my time is up, but I thank you 

18 for the opportunity.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much. With 

20 that I'd like to propose that we take a brief, 

21 about a five minute recess. So we'll adjourn for 

22 a moment and then resume at about 3:19, 

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1 approximately. 

2 (Recess from 3:13 p.m. until 3:49 p.m.)

3 MR. NIEBLING: Okay, ladies and 

4 gentlemen. Thank you for your patience. We're 

5 going to resume our session with some people 

6 ready to speak. I read through some ground rules

7 before. I don't plan to recapitulate them but 

8 I'm happy to if anyone has any questions. 

9 We are asking you to be respectful of 

10 each other's testimony, and to speak for up to 

11 five minutes, but to make sure that the list of 

12 people that want to speak have a chance to. 

13 We're going to try to keep to that as best as we 

14 can. 

15 So with that I'd like to invite up Illana 

16 Naylor and Malcolm Odell to testify, please. 

17 MS. NAYLOR: Good afternoon, Mr. 

18 Niebling, Ms. Conlin, and Ms. McLamb. Thank you 

19 for providing these listening sessions which 

20 indicates your love for and belief in democracy. 

21 Thank you for your patience for hearing over and

22 over again information you already know, but 

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1 hopefully will provide you support that you need 

2 to go forward with the most important proposed 

3 rule for finding the best systems of Co2 emission 

4 reductions.

5 My name is Illana Naylor. I live in 

6 Manassas, Virginia and I serve and practice as a 

7 Masters Prepared beside pediatric nurse. 

8 In 2004 a Master's thesis was entitled 

9 the Health Effects of Global Warming. I was 

10 laughed at by my professors who claimed that 

11 global warming was not a healthcare concern. 

12 What totally befuddles me now is how climate 

13 change became the political football it is today.

14 So I also thank you, the representatives 

15 of the EPA for acknowledging that climate change 

16 is real.

17 In your introduction, I quote, "This 

18 proposal is an important step toward achieving 

19 the greenhouse gas emission reductions needed to 

20 address the serious threat of climate change." 

21 GHG pollution threatens the American 

22 public by leading to potentially rapid damage, 

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1 even long lasting change in our climate that we 

2 have had a range of severe negative effects on 

3 human health and the environment. Co2 is the 

4 primary GHG pollutant accounting for nearly three 

5 quarters of GHG emissions, and 82 percent of U.S. 

6 GHG emission.

7 The May 2014 report of the National

8 Climate Assessment concluded, "The climate change 

9 impacts are already manifesting in the sails and 

10 imposing losses and costs. The report document 

11 increases in extreme weather and climate events 

12 in recent decades, damage and destructives to 

13 infrastructure and agriculture and projects 

14 continued increases and impacts across a wide 

15 range of communities, sectors, and ecosystems," 

16 end of quote.

17 Imagine with me a moment that we are all 

18 back in New Orleans during the overwhelming 

19 disaster of Katrina. As a nurse what I saw were 

20 people trapped in the Astrodome for days with no 

21 water and nowhere to put human waste.

22 Children are my passion. Imagine again 

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1 with me that the Earth, no longer our mother who 

2 cares for us, but a child who is in danger of Co2 

3 toxicity and asthma, struggling to breath and to 

4 be free. Children are among our most vulnerable. 

5 I am here to speak up for them. 

6 Co2 toxicity leads to irritability, 

7 asphyxiation, and death for all of us.

8 I am proud to support the EPA agency in 

9 creating limits that would result in significant 

10 reduction in carbon pollution for power plants 

11 for the first time in our nation's history. 

12 Power plants are responsible for 40 percent of 

13 U.S. carbon pollution, contributing to climate 

14 disruption. 

15 There are limits on the amount of 

16 mercury, sulfur, arsenic, cyanide, soot, and 

17 lead, but until recently there have been no 

18 limits on carbon pollution. Why this proposal is 

19 a significant step I quote, "Forward with the EPA 

20 and states partner to reduce greenhouse gas 

21 emission in the U.S. And while this rule would 

22 change Co2 emissions reductions in the power 

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1 sector, approximately 30 percent from Co2 

2 emission levels in 2005, and would result in net 

3 climate and health benefits of 48 billion to 82 

4 billion," end of quote.

5 I am deeply concerned this proposal will 

6 not see these significant reductions until 16 

7 years from now, in 2030. 

8 In the introduction the proposal speaks 

9 of the healthcare cost savings as a result of Co 

10 emissions reduction. But this point is not 

11 repeated in the subsequent sections on cost 

12 benefit analysis of various alternatives. 

13 Truly, I thank you for your exhaustive 

14 work in developing and expanding upon the four 

15 building blocks. I agree that the best system 

16 for reducing emissions is for the states to use 

17 elements of all four blocks. 

18 I do, however, challenge EPA's very low 

19 expectations of renewable energy overall. 

20 Germany is very committed to renewable energy. I 

21 quote from Wikipedia, no less, "Germany's 

22 renewable energy sector is among the most 

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1 innovate and successful worldwide. The share of 

2 electricity produced from renewable energy in 

3 Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the 

4 national total in 2000 to about 25 in the first 

5 half of 2012. In 2011 20.5 of Germany's 

6 electricity supply was produced with renewable 

7 energy sources. More than the 2010 contribution 

8 of gas fired plants. During the first six months 

9 of 2014 almost 31 percent of German electric 

10 power came from renewable sources, mainly wind, 

11 biogas, and solar. This is more than came from 

12 brown coal. In 2010 investments totaling 26 

13 billion Euros were made in Germany's renewable 

14 energy sector. Germany has been called the 

15 world's first major renewable energy economy. 

16 Sieman's Chief Executive Peter Loscher believes 

17 that Germany's target of generating 35 percent of 

18 its electricity from renewables by 2020 is 

19 achievable. 

20 I understand that we are focusing on 

21 carbon emissions, but does that mean we turn a 

22 blind eye to the environmental degradation

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1 resulting from natural gas and hydro fracking and 

2 nuclear energy? I invite you to New York City on 

3 September 21st, returning to best emissions. 

4 Thank you. 

5 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. And if you 

6 submitted a paper copy of your comments we'll 

7 make sure those are reflected in the record.

8 MS. NAYLOR: I did, Mr. Niebling. Yes, 

9 sir.

10 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

11 MS. NAYLOR: Because I also have another 

12 question about best practices, but I'm done.

13 MR. NIEBLING: Well, thank you. We'll 

14 make sure those are reflected in the record.

15 MS. NAYLOR: Thank you.

16 MR. ODELL JR.: That's a hard act to 

17 follow. I'm Dr. Malcolm Odell. I started out my 

18 career -- I'm a witness. I don't bring any 

19 scientific papers and I'm certainly not going to 

20 regurgitate all the facts and figures you've 

21 heard over and over again. You know the science. 

22 Stick to your science. You're doing a great job.

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1 I started as a Peace Corps volunteer in 

2 1962, the first batch that went to Nepal, saw the 

3 Himalayas in their glory in the early '60s, over 

4 50 years ago.

5 I got interested in natural resource 

6 management, excited by what I saw in the

7 Himalayas, wanted to see what we could do to 

8 protect environments like that, those wonderful 

9 mountains. Decided to try to get an advanced 

10 degree. 

11 I hitchhiked from Kathmandu to Paris to 

12 take the graduate record exams, got into Cornell, 

13 got a PhD after some struggle, and natural 

14 resource management agriculture and been working 

15 in the field ever since.

16 1975, went with my family to the Kalahari 

17 to try and reverse desertification of the 

18 Kalahari. We were there for five years. My 

19 family started there. My son was born in 

20 Southern Africa. 

21 Came back 15 years and then in New 

22 England where I worked on the Merrimack River 

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1 Watershed Council to protect and turn around the 

2 disaster of Merrimack River which was a toxic 

3 waste dump some years ago, and is now, you can 

4 swim in it. 

5 While I was there I hosted and moderated 

6 a workshop at the JFK School at Harvard 

7 University for climate scientists, together with 

8 media people. Gentleman. Some time ago, 1985, 

9 to alert the media to the problem of climate 

10 science. At that time Jim Hanson and his climate 

11 scientists that were out there doing the work, 

12 they were unanimous then. They're more unanimous 

13 now. They've only been joined by hundreds and 

14 thousands of other scientists. But we saw it in 

15 the mid '80s, and knew it was there, and we need 

16 to remember that the clock is ticking.

17 I went back to the Himalayas in '94 to 

18 2003. My family lived there eight years, and 

19 I've been witness to some real changes. 

20 We did introduce some solar power 

21 technology in Africa. We introduced solar power 

22 technology in Nepal. We have electric taxes in 

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1 Kathmandu. We have solar panels on water and 

2 electric all over Southern Africa. And yet, our 

3 own embassies in other parts of the world aren't 

4 even using those kinds of technologies. 

5 I was witness to the desertification and 

6 the efforts to try to change it East and Southern 

7 Africa. I was recently in Jordan where I saw the 

8 Dead Sea retreating at somewhat catastrophic 

9 rate. Not only from climate change but from man, 

10 you know, drawing of the water. 

11 I went to Pakistan and watched the 

12 desalinization of the Indus Valley. I brought 

13 the engineers to the United States to see what 

14 we've done in Central Valley, the wonderful 

15 fantastic irrigation and how we turned the lower 

16 end of the Central Valley into a toxic waste dump 

17 at the Kesterson Wildlife Reserve where the park 

18 rangers have to wear protective clothing and blow 

19 off shotguns to keep the wildlife -- I mean, 

20 birds from settling in that park. Otherwise 

21 they'll die or their children will be deformed.

22 I was in Afghanistan and Pakistan again 

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1 recently, saw what's happening to that beautiful 

2 Hindu Kush. And I was working in the Himalayas. 

3 I came back to work on the National Natural Park 

4 Reserves Social and Community Forestry, community 

5 owned national parks. And we were able to, in 

6 the lifetime of my short lifespan here, to 

7 actually demonstrate increased forestation of the 

8 Himalayan watershed. There are more trees on the 

9 Himalayan watershed today than there were 40 

10 years ago. And yet the glaciers are still 

11 melting. And they're melting, seriously. 

12 And 12 of my friends, 12 of my Sherpa 

13 friends died because of that climate induced 

14 secondary effect just not long ago. 

15 I also saw the same in India. Social 

16 forestry programs, planting thousands and 

17 thousands of acres of forests, and yet the 

18 problem continues. 

19 I worked with African women and Nepali 

20 women who planted hundreds and hundreds of 

21 thousands of seedlings, only to see the negative 

22 problems continue. 

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1 I was recently back in Africa, and I saw 

2 what's happening to Mount Kenya, the loss of the 

3 Glacier on Mount Kenya. Kilimanjaro will, for 

4 our children -- kids, you better get to see 

5 Kilimanjaro if you haven't already because it 

6 won't have a snowcap anymore. 

7 I've seen the sea level rise in 

8 Bangladesh, killing hundreds of thousands, 

9 millions of people. Sri Lanka and even seen 

10 what's happening in New Zealand and the Pacific 

11 Islands. And my granddaughter was born just 

12 recently in New York City, and she was lucky to 

13 get to the Downtown Medical Center because it was 

14 completely underwater on the ground level, until 

15 the day before she was born.

16 I think it's, you know, it's 52 years of 

17 watching science and witness for science, and 

18 seeing the science and public information of the 

19 unanimous type. I studied the history of science 

20 by the way. Never in the history of science has 

21 there been such a consensus. Scientists always 

22 fight. They did back to Galileo. But there's 

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1 never been a consensus like this one. You know 

2 that.

3 But why are we still struggling to bring 

4 coal under control? You know, it's really 

5 terrible that we have to make this testimony and 

6 you have to wage your battle. Why are we second 

7 to Germany? It's just shocking.

8 All I can say is, you're doing a great 

9 job. Just raise the bar and keep on raising the 

10 bar. Thank you very much.

11 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

12 MS. NAYLOR: Thank you.

13 MR. NIEBLING: Next I'd like --

14 MR. NIEBLING: All right. I'd like to 

15 invite up next, Jeff Hyman and Dean Hubbard, 

16 please. 

17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Pardon?

18 MR. NIEBLING: Jeff Hyman and Dean 

19 Hubbard, please. 

20 MR. HYMAN: Okay. Ready? So, Dr. Jim 

21 Hansen predicts that if we burn all fossil fuels 

22 --

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1 MR. NIEBLING: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 

2 Would you please introduce yourself and spell 

3 your name for the reporter?

4 MR. HYMAN: All right. My name is 

5 Jeffrey Hyman, J-E-F-F-R-E-Y H-Y-M-A-N. 

6 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

7 MR. HYMAN: Okay. So, Dr. James Hansen 

8 predicts that if we burn all fossil fuels we 

9 could cause our planet to become not only ice10 free, but also human free. I imagine that the 

11 point of no return that guarantees our near turn 

12 extinction must be somewhere less than all of the 

13 fossil fuels. 

14 I hope to God we haven't crossed that 

15 window already. 

16 Bill McKibben wrote about how if we want 

17 to avoid dangerous limits of global warming we 

18 need to keep at least four fifths of reserves of 

19 fossil fuel carbon in the ground forever. At 

20 current rates we are set to blow past this limit 

21 within 14, 15 years. I'm scared. I'm seeing the 

22 end of humanity. Unmitigated global warming 

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1 means the total annihilation of everything of 

2 value in this universe.

3 President Obama has said that global 

4 warming is one of the most important issues of 

5 this generation, except for every other thing 

6 that comes up that seems to knock global warming 

7 down the line in the list of most important 

8 presidential priorities.

9 President Obama is wrong. Global warming 

10 is the single most important issue, and the whole 

11 history of life on Earth. Dr. Hansen has said 

12 that the upper limit for our safety of Co2 in the 

13 atmosphere is 350 parts per million. If we can 

14 stay below 400 parts per million we might still 

15 be able to get back to below 350 by means of 

16 things like reforestation. But if we go much 

17 greater than 400 ppm, then 350 ppm will no longer 

18 be practically possible.

19 We're now at 400 parts per million, and 

20 we need to act with urgency. We have already 

21 caused a certain amount of damage to the planet

22 that we will not be able to fix, and we can only 

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1 grieve and mourn for that damage we've caused 

2 already.

3 There is further warming in the pipeline 

4 that we'll not be able to prevent, but there's 

5 potentially even greater damages that hopefully 

6 we still can prevent if we act.

7 Humans have accomplished many great 

8 things across the history of our civilization. I 

9 think it would be nice of us if we each would 

10 choose to continue to survive on Earth so that we 

11 might be able to remember the achievements of the 

12 past, as well as to be able to continue to do 

13 more great things in the future. 

14 If we survive global warming in the short 

15 term, there's longer term risks to survival on 

16 Earth. Things like that asteroid that wiped out 

17 the dinosaurs, and eventually our sun will die. 

18 And I believe we could work over thousands of 

19 years to survive threats by doing things like 

20 colonizing Mars and maybe other plants around 

21 other stars. But we'll need a stable home base

22 on Earth to work from.

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1 I think that people who go into public 

2 service for a career are interested more in 

3 serving the public good more than personal 

4 enrichment. 

5 Serving people who you have never met and 

6 never will meet, I want you to consider that 

7 potential people of future generations who you 

8 will also never meet out number and outweigh the 

9 number of people alive today.

10 I don't have children of my own, but I 

11 have a nephew and four nieces and I'm afraid for 

12 them as droughts increase and sea levels rise, I 

13 worry if they will be able to always be secure in 

14 their ability to obtain food. I wonder if they 

15 might be among the last humans to survive on 

16 Earth before our extinction.

17 This clean power plan is a baby step. Go 

18 ahead and take a baby step, but don't imagine it 

19 to be more than what it is. We need more. We 

20 need total war effort to mitigate global warming. 

21 And this is not that. We need a plan that causes 

22 global carbon emissions from all sources to be 

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1 reduced by more than half within a decade. We 

2 need a high and rapidly rising global price on 

3 carbon. Work on that.

4 As fossil carbon energy industry is 

5 squeezed and ended, we can expect carbon-free 

6 energy alternatives like wind and solar power, 

7 and nuclear power, to grow and expand and make 

8 gains and efficiencies. But we can't rely on 

9 future miracle technology that hasn't been 

10 invented yet to solve all our problems, if major 

11 world governments do nothing now and refuse to 

12 treat global warming with all warranted gravity.

13 So take a baby step and go and do more.

14 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

15 MR. HUBBARD: Good afternoon. My name is 

16 Dean Hubbard, D-E-A-N H-U-B-B-A-R-D. I'm the 

17 Director of the Sierra Club Labor Program. I've 

18 been in the labor movement for nearly three 

19 decades as an organizer, an attorney, and an 

20 educator.

21 During these hearings you will hear a lot 

22 of folks arguing that we should be protecting the 

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1 environment. You'll hear other folks arguing 

2 that we need to protect good jobs. What I'd like 

3 to talk about today is the fact that the Clean 

4 Power Plan really allows us to do both.

5 From a union perspective the Clean Power 

6 Plan presents a tremendous opportunity to create 

7 good family sustaining jobs in every state of the 

8 nation. That's because the EPA has structured 

9 the plan in a way that give states enough time to 

10 comply in a way that is best suited for their 

11 local economies. Meaning they can create their 

12 own plans to protect existing jobs and spur the 

13 creation of new ones, all while reducing 

14 pollution.

15 We should use the next two years to come 

16 together, to talk through our differences, and 

17 find common ground to get this done in the best 

18 way possible. That's because the Clean Power 

19 Plan is not really about jobs versus the 

20 environment. It really gives us a chance to work 

21 together to create good jobs and healthy 

22 communities on a living planet as we protect 

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1 workers and communities who are affected by 

2 America's transition to clean energy.

3 Under the plan, as you all know, the 

4 tools that states can use include increasing 

5 renewable energy sources, and increasing energy 

6 efficiency. Renewable energy and energy 

7 efficiency investments create far more jobs per 

8 dollars spent than fossil fuels, including 

9 natural gas.

10 Specifically, a clean energy investment 

11 agenda creates more than three times the number 

12 of jobs in the United States as does spending the 

13 same amount of money in the fossil fuel sectors, 

14 including the natural gas sector.

15 Even better than median salaries for jobs 

16 in the clean sector are nearly $8,000 higher than 

17 wages across the broader economy. And the clean 

18 energy sector is growing at a rate that is nearly 

19 double the rate of growth of the overall economy.

20 So if done properly, retooling our 

21 economy for clean energy, which the Clean Power 

22 Plan will help us do, will actually lead to a 

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1 massive expansion of good jobs.

2 We do know that the market alone will not 

3 protect workers or create a fair and just clean 

4 energy economy. And that is why the Sierra Club 

5 and our partners support the strong and just 

6 Clean Power Plan. That means that we are asking 

7 the EPA and all relevant federal and state 

8 agencies to work with us to ensure four things.

9 First, we want to make sure that workers 

10 and communities that are affected by the phasing 

11 out of fossil fuels are treated fairly and 

12 justly. 

13 Secondly, we want to make sure that the 

14 jobs that the plan creates are good family 

15 sustaining jobs. 

16 Third, we want to make sure that 

17 disadvantaged communities receive their fair 

18 share of clean energy related economic 

19 opportunities. 

20 And fourth, we want to make sure that 

21 clean energy continues to be affordable.

22 Most of all it's really important for the 

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1 labor and the environmental movements to continue 

2 working together, and to refuse to be divided by 

3 their common opponents. Beyond some unions that 

4 do have legitimate concerns about their members, 

5 the attacks on the Clean Power Plan are coming 

6 from the same anti-union corporate polluters that 

7 have sought to destroy the labor movement and 

8 have fought any attempt to address the global 

9 climate disruption for decades. 

10 In the last few years climate disruption 

11 contributed to damaging floods, widespread 

12 wildfires, record drought, and Super Storm Sandy, 

13 which together cost American's hundreds of lives, 

14 thousands of jobs, and hundreds of billions of 

15 dollars. We can't afford to wait any longer to 

16 act. 

17 For the wellbeing of America's workers, 

18 for the nation's economy, and for the health of 

19 our planet, now is the time for the labor and 

20 environmental movements to come together in 

21 support of a plan that dramatically reduces 

22 pollution from America's power plants, increases 

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1 good jobs, and reduces the threat of climate 

2 disruption. Thank you.

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you both. 

4 MS. PEREZ: Do you want hard copies of 

5 the testimony for the reporter or --

6 MR. NIEBLING: At the registration table 

7 is best if you don't mind.

8 MR. HUBBERD: Oh. Great. Thank you.

9 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I would 

10 like to invite up Carter and Olivia Ries, please.

11 MR. RIES: Would you like me to say my 

12 name? It's Carter Ries, C-A-R-T-E-R R-I-E-S. 

13 Do you want my sister's name too?

14 COURT REPORTER: If you want to do it now 

15 or if you want to wait until it's her turn.

16 MR. NIEBLING: I think, if you'd like to 

17 testify together.

18 MR. RIES: Oh, Yeah. Okay.

19 MS. RIES: Okay. My name is Olivia Ries, 

20 O-L-I-V-I-A R-I-E-S. 

21 MR. RIES: All right. So I want to thank 

22 you guys for letting us come today and to speak 

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1 about this very important issue. My name is 

2 Carter and I'm 13 years old, and this is my 

3 sister Olivia, who will be turning 12 at the end 

4 of August.

5 Together we started our own nonprofit 

6 organization called One More Generation, or OMG, 

7 where we education kids and adults about the need 

8 to help save endangered species and clean up our 

9 environment for at least one more generation and 

10 beyond. 

11 During the BP Gulf oil spill we learned 

12 that environmental issues such as plastic 

13 pollution and ocean acidification are major 

14 contributors to the demise of many of our species 

15 around the world. 

16 Although we specialize in teaching kids 

17 about plastic pollution, we are very much 

18 concerned with what is happening to our air and 

19 our oceans, which is why we're here today.

20 Climate change is something that not 

21 everyone yet comprehends, and to be honest, I 

22 don't think we fully understand everything 

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1 connected with it, but I do know that it is 

2 something that scares me.

3 We are already seeing that temperatures 

4 are getting warmer, our polar ice caps are 

5 melting at alarming rates, and more and more 

6 young, elderly, and economically disadvantaged 

7 are becoming ill due to respiratory issues 

8 directly contributed to our changing climate.

9 We urge the EPA to please strengthen your 

10 draft carbon rule for existing power plants which 

11 as we know are responsible for as much as 30 to 

12 40 percent of the carbon pollution causing global 

13 warming.

14 The Clean Power Plan will close loopholes 

15 and limit carbon pollution for the first time, 

16 and for that we want to say thanks, we hope that 

17 you will help ensure that our generation has 

18 plenty of clean air to breathe and oceans that 

19 are teaming with life for years to come. Thank 

20 you.

21 MS. RIES: Well, again, thank you for 

22 letting us come and speak today. As Carter said, 

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1 we are so glad to see so many people who 

2 genuinely care about our environment and how 

3 we're helping to ensure our next generation has 

4 clean air to breathe for years to come.

5 Carter also mentioned that we know more 

6 about plastic pollution than we do about global 

7 warming. We're actually here in Washington to 

8 meet with under Secretary Novelli and we will 

9 present to her our plastic and awareness 

10 recycling curriculum that we teach to kids and 

11 adults to teach them about the issue of plastic 

12 pollution. 

13 Global warming is something that affects

14 all of us. Nearly half of all the Americans live 

15 in an area where air quality is unsafe to 

16 breathe, and the Clean Power Plan is something 

17 that is long overdue and needed. 

18 Thank you for allowing us to come and 

19 speak our concerns and our gratitude for all that 

20 you are doing to keep our planet safe for future 

21 generations. Respectfully, Olivia.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you both very much. 

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1 We appreciate your testimony. 

2 (Applause.)

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next, please, 

4 Richard McCorkle and Laura Henderson. Big shoes 

5 to fill.

6 MR. MCCORKLE: My name is Richard 

7 McCorkle, R-I-C-H-A-R-D M-C-C-O-R-K-L-E. 

8 Good afternoon. I'd like to thank EPA 

9 for this opportunity to speak in support of the 

10 Clean Power Plan. 

11 I'm from the Philadelphia area 

12 originally, and for the past 23 years I've lived 

13 in Delaware where smog levels are unhealthy and 

14 asthma sickens 20,000 children and 70,000 adults 

15 each year.

16 While living in Delaware I've noticed the 

17 weather has become more and more erratic with 

18 each passing year. We have been experiencing 

19 more temperature swings and more extreme rainfall 

20 events which cause widespread flooding. Delaware 

21 has been declared as a disaster area four times 

22 since 2000 due to severe storms and massing 

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1 flooding.

2 In 2013 Delaware statewide precipitation

3 for June averaged nearly 11 inches, seven inches 

4 above the 30 year mean and a new statewide 

5 record. And Wilmington set a new record with 

6 13.7 inches.

7 On July 28th, 2013, more than seven 

8 inches of rain fell during a four hour period at 

9 Philadelphia International Airport. A new daily 

10 record for the city was set with the rainfall 

11 total for that day exceeding eight inches. The 

12 following day all American Airlines morning 

13 flights, over 530 of them were canceled or 

14 delayed due to the storm's impacts, and many cars 

15 were submerged.

16 Just one day into August Philadelphia set 

17 a new summer rainfall record with the seasonal 

18 total already 245 percent of the climatologically

19 average for the entire three summer months.

20 We may argue about whether a particular 

21 weather event is caused by climate change, but 

22 there is no disputing the fact that a warmer 

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1 atmosphere holds more moisture. This is why we 

2 can expect more of these devastating 

3 precipitation events.

4 Looking at temperature extremes during 

5 the summer of 2013, nighttime temperatures in 

6 Philadelphia did not drop below 70 degrees for 

7 over 30 days, the longest string of days at or 

8 above 70 degrees since recordkeeping began in 

9 1872. Here in Washington, D.C. the temperature 

10 failed to drop below 80 degrees for five straight 

11 nights. Also a new record.

12 In December of 2013, the Mid Atlantic 

13 experienced a heat wave with temperatures rising 

14 above 70 and breaking records in many areas. The 

15 most unusual aspect of that December heat wave 

16 was the amount by which records were broken, by 

17 10 degrees in some areas along the east coast.

18 Just one week ago we learned that a new 

19 global heat record was set for the month of June, 

20 and the world's oceans were the hottest ever 

21 recorded, regardless of the month.

22 Consider also that a 2013 study revealed 

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1 that during the past 100 years the temperature 

2 rose at a rate that was 50 times faster than the 

3 rate of any other temperature change since the 

4 last ice age which ended 11,300 years ago.

5 It seems the likelihood of achieving the 

6 goal of not exceeding a two degree Celsius

7 temperature increase is remote at this point. As 

8 we continue to fail to act scientists are now 

9 predicting that the global average temperature 

10 will increase by at least four degrees Celsius 

11 and possibly as much as six degrees, due to our 

12 inaction.

13 To date our greenhouse gas emissions have 

14 fueled global average temperature increase of 

15 about one degree Celsius. Try to imagine the 

16 climate chaos associated with a four to six 

17 degrees increase. 

18 Living in the coastal state of Delaware, 

19 I'm very concerned about sea level rise. Coastal 

20 towns, ports, and low lying farm lands will be 

21 lost. I'm sure many folks in this room enjoy 

22 beach vacations. Chances are those beaches that 

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1 you enjoy visiting will be gone by the end of 

2 this century, if not sooner. 

3 In natural situations beaches and dunes 

4 migrate inland with rising sea level. But most 

5 of the beaches we enjoy are backed by urban 

6 development, and unless society is willing to 

7 abandon these developed areas and retreat inland 

8 we will be left with sea walls instead of beaches 

9 and dunes.

10 Those who are opposed to this plan will 

11 try to make arguments on economic grounds, but 

12 what about the cost to society of more and worse 

13 floods, droughts, and crop losses? 

14 Weather and climate related disasters 

15 have caused $2.4 trillion in economic losses and 

16 nearly 2 million deaths globally since 1971, 

17 according to a new report. In my opinion anyone 

18 opposing these rules on economic grounds doesn't 

19 have a leg to stand on. 

20 The costs of solar and wind power have 

21 continued to decline, and these renewable energy 

22 sources lack the externalities of traditional 

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1 energy sources. 

2 So my time is up? Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. 

3 All right. I would just like to add, I agree 

4 with some of the other folks who have spoke 

5 earlier that I don't feel this plan goes far 

6 enough in terms of its carbon reduction goal. The 

7 time frame for full implementation is too slow 

8 and natural gas is not a bridge fuel. We must 

9 transition as quickly as possible away from all 

10 fossil fuels. Thank you.

11 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

12 MS. HENDERSON: Hello. My name is Laura 

13 Henderson. It's spelled just like it sounds. 

14 It's L-A-U-R-A H-E-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. 

15 I want to first say thank you for 

16 allowing me to speak today. Next I would like to 

17 tell you that I, like Richard, am also from 

18 Delaware. 

19 The Clean Power Plan is important to my 

20 family because we already suffer from poor air 

21 quality. Very poor. Delaware -- see, you're 

22 nodding your head. You know.

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1 Delaware consistently receives an F in 

2 air quality. There are dozens of days each year 

3 that the State of Delaware issues alerts for 

4 ozone levels and air quality. The alerts warn us 

5 not to pump gas, and they tell us that the most 

6 sensitive populations should stay indoors.

7 On these days, whether it's yellow, 

8 orange, or a red alert, I'm afraid to allow my 

9 seven year old outside.

10 Most of Delaware is below sea level and 

11 the sea level rise has really been a challenge 

12 for us. There are several roads that we cannot 

13 travel on during high tide. Not just during a 

14 storm or after a storm, but during high tide the 

15 roads can't be driven on.

16 I live in a city that has passed an 

17 ordinance that is against vehicle idling. My 

18 family conserves, we recycle, we compost, my son 

19 is adopted, we even buy most of our clothing 

20 used. What my family and some families in my 

21 city are doing are not enough. If every family 

22 in my state adopted the best and the greenest 

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1 practices, it still would not be enough.

2 Our tax dollars have gone to bail out 

3 several communities that constantly flooded. 

4 These dollars would be better spent reducing the 

5 carbon emissions from our electricity sources. 

6 Supporting the Clean Power Plan would support the 

7 economy by creating jobs. I know everybody wants 

8 to hear that, but -- and I'm sure you guys have 

9 heard a lot of that today. But it's true. Green 

10 energy jobs would be good American jobs and it 

11 would help protect everyone's health. Thank you.

12 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I would 

13 like to invite up Michael Zehr and Mary Lauran 

14 Hall, please. 

15 MR. ZEHR: Hello. My name is Michael 

16 Zehr, and I serve as Vice President of the 

17 Consumer Energy Alliance.

18 CEA is a nationwide association made up 

19 of energy consumers and producers, working to 

20 advance an all of the above energy policy that 

21 will lower energy costs for every American. 

22 Access to affordable energy is of utmost 

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1 importance to our members because every dollar 

2 spent on energy is a dollar that cannot be spent 

3 on capitol investments, payroll, savings, 

4 groceries, or next year's family vacation.

5 In order to create economic growth it is 

6 important for the government to implement 

7 policies that will ensure affordable, reliable, 

8 energy supplies for America's families, farms, 

9 factories, and all small businesses. 

10 If finalized as proposed regulations on 

11 existing electric generating units undoubtedly 

12 cause reliability and affordability concerns for 

13 many states. Particularly those that utilize 

14 coal for a large portion of their electric 

15 generation. This is particularly an acute 

16 problem for many states in the Midwest and 

17 Southeast regions of the U.S. where a majority of 

18 states rely on coal powered generation for more 

19 than one third of their electric needs.

20 As proposed these regulations would force 

21 states to enact policies which would require 

22 utilities and electric co-ops to prematurely shut 

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1 down coal fire plants, either through the 

2 implementation of fuel switching requirements or 

3 renewable fuel mandates, which will likely lead 

4 to higher electricity prices for energy 

5 consumers.

6 Given the nature of our electric grid 

7 abrupt changes in our energy mix, particularly 

8 ones that have not been contemplated throughout 

9 the development of the grid, will reduce dispatch 

10 options and disrupt the fuel diversification that 

11 has been critical to low electricity costs.

12 Additional plant closures will continue 

13 to have a real and negative impact on state and 

14 local economies. For the most vulnerable among 

15 us, including low-income families, seniors living 

16 on fixed budget, higher electricity costs cannot 

17 easily be absorbed. In essence they are a 

18 regressive tax. 

19 While natural gas, nuclear alternative, 

20 and renewable electricity generation have become 

21 a much more important part of the fuel mix over 

22 the last several decades, and are certainly 

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1 capable of increasing their contributions to the 

2 grid. Developing additional capacity from these 

3 sources in the necessary infrastructure to 

4 realize these expansions will take time and 

5 likely come with significant costs to consumers.

6 We would also like to point out that 

7 EPA's aggressive timeline allows states only one 

8 year to develop a very complex plan that will 

9 need to address a series of adjustments to their 

10 electricity generation, consumption, and energy 

11 infrastructure that will come from forcing a 

12 change in the energy mix.

13 States have historically been given 

14 several years to develop and implement 

15 regulations for criteria pollutants that are a 

16 tiny fraction of the size and scope of the 

17 proposed regulations we are discussing here 

18 today. Forcing through regulations of this 

19 magnitude in such a short timeframe will limit

20 the ability of states and stakeholders to 

21 thoughtfully prepare for the drastic changes that 

22 this rule will cause. If this administration is 

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1 comfortable spending more than five years 

2 evaluating the Keystone XL Pipeline it should 

3 feel comfortable taking its time to craft a 

4 thoughtful rule that fully evaluates the 

5 consequences of its proposed actions. 

6 At a time when electricity consumption is 

7 projected to grow it is important that government 

8 regulations and policies avoid electricity supply 

9 disruptions or unnecessary price increases. 

10 As EPA considers how to move forward we 

11 urge the Agency to keep electricity consumers in 

12 mind and not promulgate rules that will adversely 

13 affect businesses and family budgets.

14 As a nation we should strive to have more 

15 of all forms of energy and not simply pit one 

16 form of energy resource against another. We hope 

17 that EPA will consider the potential economic 

18 impacts on consumers across the nation of these 

19 regulations as it takes the next steps in 

20 developing these regulations. Thank you for your 

21 time.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

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1 MS. HALL: Hi. My name is Mary Lauran 

2 Hall, M-A-R-Y L-A-U-R-A-N H-A-L-L.

3 So I live in Washington, D.C. and I was 

4 around 21 years old when I first started making 

5 healthier decisions about my transportation and 

6 physical activity. Instead of driving to the bus 

7 stop I would take the extra time to walk. 

8 Instead of taking the bus I would bike every once 

9 in a while. And now I love being active outdoors 

10 in the Washington, D.C. area and our surrounding 

11 states.

12 I love hiking in Rock Creek Park, running 

13 along the McMillen Reservoir, biking on the 15th 

14 Street protected bike lane just a few blocks from 

15 here. I have even biked all the way from 

16 Pittsburg down to D.C. on the Great Allegheny 

17 Passage and the C & O Canal. A beautiful route 

18 that really showcases our region's character.

19 So I said I was around 21 years old when

20 I started making these healthier choices. I was 

21 also around 21 years old when I first experienced 

22 what it's like to be unable to breathe. When I'm 

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1 on the verge of an asthma attack it feels like 

2 there is a valve that's about to close in my 

3 windpipe. It usually happens when I'm on a run 

4 or on a bike ride, consistent with the exercised

5 induced asthma diagnosis that my doctor explained

6 to me.

7 It starts with just at tickle, almost as 

8 if I could get rid of it if I drank some water. 

9 But then it gets worse. The valve snaps shut and 

10 I'm left alternating between coughing and 

11 gasping, unable to take a full breath of air into 

12 my lungs for up to 20 minutes at a time. It's 

13 terrifying.

14 When I choose to walk and bike for 

15 transportation or for exercise, I do so because 

16 it gives me more energy, helps me maintain a 

17 healthy weight, and saves me money. It's 

18 supposed to be a healthy choice, one that helps 

19 my metabolism and boosts my cardiovascular 

20 health. But when I breathe heavily from outdoor 

21 exercise I'm also breathing in dangerous 

22 pollution particles that are fueling my asthma 

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1 and poisoning my lungs.

2 I love living in Washington, D.C. but I 

3 don't love that every breath I take includes 

4 particles that are damaging to my lung health. I 

5 don't love that the American Lung Association 

6 ranked Washington, D.C. as the eighth most 

7 polluted city for ozone in 2014. 

8 There are hundreds of thousands of people 

9 like me who experience adult onset asthma thanks 

10 in part to dangerous pollutants in our 

11 atmosphere. It's even scarier to think about all 

12 the children who develop asthma at a young age 

13 due to air pollution. The consequences are even 

14 worse for young kids, for elderly Americans, for 

15 people with chronic diseases, and for people who 

16 live closer to major highway arterials and 

17 polluting power plants than I do.

18 We need to do all we can to stop 

19 preventable lung diseases like mine. The Clean 

20 Power Plan will help protect public health by 

21 limiting the carbon pollution that makes our air 

22 dangerous to breathe. I urge the Environmental 

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1 Protection Agency to set a final plan within a 

2 year that provides the strongest limits on carbon 

3 pollution. Anything less is unacceptable for our 

4 nation's health and for the health of our 

5 children. Thank you.

6 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I'd like 

7 to invite up Jayce Hafner and Kathleen Laurel 

8 Imlay, please.

9 MS. HAFNER: Hi. My name is Jayce 

10 Hafner, and that's spelled J-A-Y-C-E H-A-F-N-E-R. 

11 And I'm speaking on behalf of the Episcopal 

12 Church.

13 It was the end of the arctic summer when 

14 Charlie first showed me the cracks in the tundra. 

15 Charlie is a hunter in the arctic village of 

16 Alaska, a Gwich'in settlement so remote that it 

17 can only be reached by plane. 

18 I am a policy analyst for the Episcopal 

19 Church and was visiting Charlie's village to 

20 reconnect with the Gwich'in community, a native 

21 people with whom the Episcopal Church has enjoyed 

22 a longstanding relationship. 

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1 Like the rest of his village Charlie 

2 depends on Caribou meat to survive. And he 

3 offered to take me to his hunting ground, the 

4 pristine Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

5 Charlie showed me what the scientific 

6 community considers visible effects of climate 

7 change. From his hunting boat he indicated a 

8 wide swath of collapsed riverbank, tumbled spruce 

9 trees tangled in a sinkhole. Once on the tundra 

10 he pointed to a large ominous crack in the land, 

11 two inches wide and spreading across the plain. 

12 Charlie simply said, the permafrost is melting.

13 Next he showed me forests of Willows, a 

14 tree species unknown to grow in the refuge before 

15 now. The Caribou's horns catch in the Willow's 

16 branches, he said. They can't get through and 

17 are changing their migration path away from our 

18 hunting grounds. 

19 If the Caribou don't come through, I 

20 asked, how will you eat this winter? 

21 Charlie shrugged. He did not know. 

22 Climate change is one of the great moral 

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1 issues of our time and scientific evidence points 

2 to carbon pollution as a driving force behind it. 

3 According to researchers at Stamford University, 

4 if unchecked carbon pollution could lead to 

5 21,000 climate change related deaths. 

6 We already see these tragedies occurring 

7 around the world, displacing populations, 

8 sickening children, and rendering species and 

9 cultures nearly extinct. 

10 Inspired by the growing body of evidence 

11 demonstrating that a transition to a low carbon 

12 society is both feasible and economical, and 

13 equipped the with the knowledge that carbon 

14 plants contribute to 40 percent of carbon 

15 pollution causing climate change. 

16 The Episcopal Church supports carbon 

17 pollution protections for existing power plants. 

18 We thank you for your attention to this issue and 

19 urge swift action to finalize the Clean Power 

20 Plan proposed rule, emphasizing a shift to 

21 renewable energy rather than a transition to 

22 lower carbon fossil fuels. 

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1 We ask this on behalf of our 

2 congregations on the coastlines who are still 

3 recovering from devastating hurricanes. For 

4 those on the plaines and deserts who suffer from 

5 harsher summers and winters every year, and for 

6 all communities who bear the undue burden of 

7 climate change.

8 Finally, we ask this on behalf of our 

9 brothers and sisters in the Arctic so that come 

10 winter Charlie and his village can survive. 

11 Thank you.

12 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

13 MS. IMLAY: That was beautiful. I have a 

14 much shorter one. 

15 My name is Kathleen Laurel Imlay, K-A-T16 H-L-E-E-N L-A-U-R-E-L I-M-L-A-Y. 

17 And I live in Hyattsville, Maryland and I 

18 want to thank the EPA for making this Clean Power 

19 Plan and holding this hearing. Thank you for 

20 listening to us.

21 I've lived in Maryland for most of my 

22 life and I've seen the increasing air pollution 

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1 and congestion and deterioration of air quality. 

2 And I fear for my children's health and 

3 livelihoods and futures. 

4 One recent summer as I worked in my air 

5 conditioned office, I realized that my young --

6 my little boy was outside at summer camp on a 

7 code red day. And I moved closer to work so that 

8 I could ride my bicycle so I could save money, 

9 save gas, get exercise, and that's fine in the 

10 winter. But when the summer comes sometimes I 

11 have to resort to driving or in July, the whole 

12 month of July I'll just have a long, you know, a 

13 cough the whole month.

14 We are paying a heavy price for air 

15 pollution for carbon emissions and yeah, it's the 

16 EPA's job to protect our environment, our health, 

17 our air quality, and so I support the EPA in 

18 making strong rules and regulations and enforcing 

19 them to reduce carbon pollution and air pollution 

20 and water pollution. So, thank you so much.

21 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I'd like 

22 to invite up Adeline Rolnick and Aviva Glaser, 

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1 please. 

2 MS. GLASER: My name is Aviva Glaser and 

3 I'm a Senior Policy Specialist at the National 

4 Wildlife Federation. 

5 Like many people who live in the 

6 Chesapeake Bay watershed, I feel a deep 

7 attachment to the streams, marshes, and shores 

8 that provide critical habitat for wildlife in 

9 this region. I don't think that I will ever tire 

10 of the seeing the Glossy Ibises, Snowy Egrets, 

11 and American Oyster Catchers that gather in great 

12 numbers in our wetlands during spring migration. 

13 And I can't foresee a time in the future 

14 when seeing fiddler crabs scurrying around mud 

15 flats won't bring a smile to my face. Or when 

16 catching a glimpse of a great Blue Heron feeding 

17 in the marshes alongside my train during my 

18 morning commute doesn't make my day just a little 

19 bit better. 

20 I have six young nephews who live in the 

21 Chesapeake Bay watershed, and seeing them begin 

22 to explore the natural world around them is an 

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1 amazing thing. Just this weekend my five year 

2 old nephew told me about how he was learning to 

3 fish. We didn't catch any big fish, he told me, 

4 as he was jumping up and down, bubbling with 

5 excitement, but I got to look at crabs and shrimp 

6 and I just can't wait to go fishing again.

7 Yet the fish and wildlife that I love and 

8 that my nephews are beginning to love here in the 

9 Chesapeake Bay watershed are faced with an 

10 unprecedented threat right now. Climate change 

11 threatens the very habitat that these vulnerable 

12 species depend on. 

13 That is why we need action now, more than 

14 ever before. And that is why I support efforts 

15 to protect wildlife from the threat of climate 

16 change. EPA's proposed limits on limits on 

17 industrial carbon pollution are critically needed 

18 to protect America's wildlife from the worst 

19 impacts of climate change. 

20 To protect the Chesapeake Bay's outdoor 

21 heritage for future generations, we must act now 

22 to cut climate disrupting carbon pollution. As 

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1 this rule moves forward it's important that it be 

2 implemented in a way that ensures that bio-mass 

3 energy is done right, in a way that takes into 

4 account wildlife and carbon sequestration. We 

5 need bio-mass that replenishes forest habitat, 

6 rather than degrading forests. And there is 

7 information available now that can be used to 

8 achieve that.

9 We also need bio-mass that retains forest 

10 carbon storage in the near term and not far off 

11 into the future. If bio-mass is included under 

12 the rule emissions reductions must occur by 2030 

13 and no later. 

14 Power plants account for 40 percent of 

15 the carbon pollution in the United States, 

16 contributing significantly to climate change. If 

17 we continue as is we will face a future of more 

18 frequent and increasingly violent extreme weather 

19 events, sea level rise, and stressors that will 

20 threaten public health and destroy and degrade 

21 wildlife habitat.

22 I hope that there will never be a time 

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1 when the spring migration doesn't bring Ibises, 

2 Herons, and Egrets to the Chesapeake Bay 

3 watershed. I want a future where wildlife 

4 thrives; a future where my nephews can go fishing 

5 and can continue to discover new wonders in 

6 nature every day. That is why I believe that we 

7 need to act on climate change and we need to act 

8 today. I support EPA's Clean Power Plan.

9 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

10 MS. ROLNICK: Hello, and thank you for 

11 the opportunity to testify today. My name is 

12 Adeline Rolnick and I also work for the National 

13 Wildlife Federation.

14 As a supporter of EPA's Clean Power Plan 

15 --

16 MR. NIEBLING: I'm sorry. Can you spell 

17 Adeline?

18 MS. ROLNICK: Yes. A-D-E-L-I-N-E R-O-L19 N-I-C-K.

20 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

21 MS. ROLNICK: And I am actually here 

22 today to read a statement for the record by Dick

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1 Penny of New Hampshire who couldn't be here 

2 today. This is his statement.

3 I am a licensed New Hampshire fishing 

4 guide. I have lived on the shores of New 

5 Hampshire's Title Water Great Bay for over 50 

6 years, not counting the time spent at my 

7 grandmother's camp on the bay where I learned to 

8 swim at age four. 

9 I support the EPA's efforts to curb 

10 carbon emission from power plants under the Clean 

11 Power Plan. 

12 In all these years we've seen tremendous 

13 changes to both the bay and surrounding areas, 

14 and not that many have been positive. As a kid I 

15 remember that Ice In on Great Bay was always 

16 before New Year's Day, an event that allowed 

17 hundreds of ice fishermen, some commercial and 

18 mostly recreational, to go out on the ice on the 

19 holiday. Their quarry was the incredible schools 

20 of salt-water smelt that flooded the iced over 

21 bay to feed and in the spring, run up the Great 

22 Bay's fresh water tributaries to spawn.

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1 In the 1960s, a New Hampshire Natural 

2 Resource Enforcement officer, it was my duty to 

3 patrol this icebound community of often as many 

4 as 500 portable ice fishing houses, known as 

5 shanties to all us local people.

6 There were some ice anglers that came 

7 from as far as 100 miles to fish here. And many 

8 of the thousands of them supplemented their 

9 incomes with the sale of their hook and line 

10 smelt catches that in the earlier days were often 

11 caught in huge nets dropped through the ice, as 

12 well as caught by hook and line. Catches of 100 

13 pounds or more were notable, but not that rare. 

14 I have witnessed the practical 

15 disappearance of ice on Great Bay over the last 

16 couple of decades as our winters have warmed, 

17 thanks to more carbon in the atmosphere. 

18 In 2012 there was no good ice all winter. 

19 We have lost a tremendously important fishery. 

20 Water fowl too have been impacted by our changing 

21 season. I find that ducks and geese are 

22 migrating to the bay later each year. We duck 

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1 hunters actually had to get the State Fish and 

2 Game Department to adjust our late water fowl 

3 season to end in mid January rather than late 

4 December, as had been traditional, to accommodate 

5 this late migration.

6 Warming falls and winters are impacting 

7 our hunting and fishing opportunities and 

8 impacting the economy here along New Hampshire's 

9 coast. I applaud the EPA for taking action to 

10 combat the root of the problem, carbon pollution, 

11 and I hope you will do everything you can to 

12 ensure a strong final standard.

13 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I'd 

14 invite up Amber Hewitt and Barbara Bramble. 

15 MS. HEWITT: Good afternoon. My name is 

16 Amber Hewitt. That's A-M-B-E-R H-E-W-E-T-T. And 

17 I work for the National Wildlife Federation's 

18 Northeast Climate Program. I speak to you today 

19 as an individual and a citizen and particularly 

20 as a coastal New Englander.

21 I thank you for the opportunity to 

22 testify in support of the Clean Power Plan.

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1 I live and work in the beautiful coastal 

2 city of Newburyport, Massachusetts, which has 

3 been home to my family for four generations. 

4 Last year Newburyport made national 

5 headline news as six houses toppled into the 

6 Atlantic Ocean during one winter's set of coastal 

7 storms. And while it made for a dramatic video 

8 clip what is missing from that message is the 

9 rate at which we got there.

10 When I looked at photos -- or still, when 

11 I look at photos from my parents and their 

12 parents, enjoying the same beaches that I 

13 frequent now, I notice that the scenery is eerily 

14 consistent. It looks much like our beaches did 

15 for most of my childhood.

16 But the past decade of photos tell a 

17 dramatically different story. The same porch 

18 that I used to sit on to apply sunscreen before 

19 crossing a boardwalk that bridged 100 yards of 

20 healthy dune, rich with tall grasses, needed to 

21 be sawed from its house last winter so the 

22 approaching high tide would take it with a clean 

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1 break to avoid structural damage to the house 

2 itself. 

3 That house survived the winter but is now 

4 neighbored by three empty lots with no indication 

5 that it will not leave the same footprint with 

6 the next nor'easter.

7 When I considered how I would allocate my 

8 few minutes of your attention today I wrote a 

9 first draft of comments full of the statistics 

10 and forecasts that I often use to underscore the 

11 importance of decreasing our reliance on carbon 

12 polluting sources of energy. But then I spoke to 

13 my friends and neighbors in Massachusetts about 

14 my trip here today and who are all newly and 

15 painfully aware that we live on the frontlines of 

16 climate change and that many share our company. 

17 And I decided to deliver their most united 

18 message because maybe you haven't heard that 

19 today.

20 But on the North Shore of Massachusetts 

21 we have made the shift to responding to the 

22 impacts of climate change that are already upon 

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1 us. Out of necessity that is where we need to 

2 be, but the new reality and the results it will 

3 produce in the coming years need to be part of a 

4 much larger and more holistic package that must 

5 include the implementation of a strengthened 

6 clean power rule. 

7 With this rule and the national regional 

8 and local collaboration that will follow as its 

9 targets are brought to fruition, we can know that 

10 the big picture is getting brighter. While 

11 coastal populations of people and wildlife brace 

12 for the weather and the storms ahead we will be 

13 empowered to know that we are working within a 

14 larger and concerted effort to learn from our 

15 stories and to build them into what will be a 

16 pivotal moment in changing the trajectory of our 

17 energy path.

18 So yes, I am here out of fear for the 

19 problem we face and what it means for Coastal New 

20 England and all low lying communities. I am here 

21 because climate change is the single greatest 

22 threat to wildlife and their habitats. I'm here 

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1 because present and future generations deserve 

2 the clean air and clean water that life on this 

3 planet has to offer, and that we will all benefit 

4 greatly from protecting in the immediate near and 

5 long term.

6 Yes, my fury for the challenge of 

7 combating the effects of decades of unchecked 

8 carbon pollution steered me toward this line of 

9 work at a very young age. But the first and 

10 foremost reason I am here today is my confidence 

11 in our ability to rise to the challenge of 

12 climate change by crafting and realizing a 

13 visionary and effective set of solutions. Not 

14 only because we have to and because we are making 

15 constant progress, but because we have a wealth 

16 of potential we have yet to harness. And for 

17 example, our Atlantic offshore wind power 

18 capacity, finally beginning to tap the estimated 

19 1,300 gigawatts of electricity generation in 

20 fortuitous proximity to some of the largest east 

21 coast markets can carry many states toward and 

22 beyond their standards. Ineffective power plant 

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1 rule can attract game changing demand to 

2 deserving clean energy solutions that will create 

3 local jobs, stabilized energy prices, enhance our 

4 nation's competitiveness, and yes, protect future 

5 generations from the dangerous impacts of climate

6 change. We can't afford to be anything but 

7 determined to reach the clean energy future we 

8 are entirely capable of securing.

9 I am grateful for the opportunity to add 

10 my voice and I’m inspired by the many of the 

11 words I have heard today. I urge you for the 

12 sake of Coastal New Englanders and for wildlife 

13 and future generations from coast to coast, to 

14 commit to making this rule the best it can be and 

15 to implement it swiftly. 

16 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Barbara?

17 MS. BRAMBLE: Great. Thank you very much 

18 for this opportunity to testify today regarding 

19 EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. My name is 

20 Barbara Bramble. That's B-A-R-B-A-R-A B-R-A-M-B21 L-E. 

22 And I'm attending this hearing in 

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1 Washington, where I was born and raised. I'm 

2 here to convey my strong support for the 

3 momentous action that EPA has taken to combat 

4 climate change by setting limits on carbon 

5 pollution from existing power plants.

6 All of us have an obligation to protect 

7 our children and future generations, and 

8 especially the vulnerable human communities in 

9 low lying areas around the world who will bear 

10 the brunt of more violent storms and sea level 

11 rise. 

12 We equally have an obligation to protect 

13 wildlife and our natural resources, which will 

14 see the impact of runaway climate change. The 

15 disruption of climate is presenting one of the 

16 gravest threats to wildlife today and as a lover 

17 of gardening and an avid birder, I applaud EPA 

18 for taking action to combat the root of the 

19 problem, carbon pollution.

20 I have witnessed the damage of extreme 

21 weather, including hurricanes that has affected 

22 my friends in Coastal North Carolina and New 

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1 Jersey, and out of control wildfires threatening 

2 the homes of other friends in the west of our 

3 country. The changes that have already affected 

4 wildlife, wild bird migrations, and planting 

5 seasons, we will need to take strong action to 

6 reverse the course we are on and I applaud EPA 

7 for taking this significant step.

8 The Clean Power Plan is indeed a major 

9 step in the right direction because the plan will 

10 help speed the way toward investments in wildlife 

11 friendly sources of clean energy. Just as 

12 important this new rule will help convince other 

13 countries that we are at last serious about 

14 climate change, which will in turn encourage them 

15 to take their own important steps. 

16 As you probably know, our procrastination 

17 for all these years has enabled other countries 

18 to hide behind our inertia. By lowering reliance 

19 on coal burning for power production in the U.S. 

20 the Clean Power Plan will also help to protect 

21 wildlife, particularly such as reducing harmful 

22 emissions of mercury, which poisons fish and 

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1 threatens all of the people who eat them. And 

2 reducing toxic leaks from coal waste ponds. 

3 As you finalize this standard I ask that 

4 you work to ensure that it achieves the deepest 

5 reductions possible by requiring states to use 

6 wildlife friendly renewable energy, such as wind 

7 and solar, and energy efficiency, and not burning 

8 more natural gas or using biofuels that burn up 

9 whole trees or cause indirect land use change.

10 EPA should strengthen the standard to 

11 reflect this potential. 

12 Others have spoken in this hearing today 

13 about the health and economic benefits of the 

14 proposed rule so I won't repeat those points. 

15 But I wanted to mention just one. While the 

16 solar and wind industries already employ more 

17 people than does the coal industry in many 

18 states, we should not forget that there still are 

19 thousands of people who depend on those coal 

20 jobs. They should be provided opportunities for 

21 a positive future in the new energy economy or 

22 other fields.

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1 The National Wildlife Federation looks 

2 forward to working with you to finalize and 

3 implement the Clean Power Rule. We urge you to 

4 do everything you can to ensure it is 

5 strengthened through the process because wildlife 

6 and future generations are counting on your 

7 leadership. Thank you very much.

8 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Barbara. 

9 Next up we have Prabh Sharan Sing and 

10 Bentley Johnson. 

11 MR. SINGH: Hello. I'm actually wearing 

12 a green suit today to actually show my support 

13 for green and clean power, just to make sure. 

14 I also want to (indiscernible)

15 environmental living. But we've also got to be 

16 rational in terms of where our majority of power 

17 is coming from.

18 I am Prabh Sharan Singh --

19 MR. NIEBLING: Excuse me. Oh, sorry. 

20 Okay.

21 MR. SINGH: -- who actually is a member 

22 of a (indiscernible) administering power, will 

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1 talk about why EPA should be more relaxed in 

2 terms of Clean Power Plan. 

3 And here's the bottom perspectives. So 

4 how much total production will be closed down, 

5 that's my first question. Which all places will 

6 have shutdowns. Are those areas have such amount 

7 of wind power, solar energy, bio energy, hydro 

8 resources to actually produce same amount of 

9 power that we're losing going to the steam or gas 

10 power? 

11 Because every power plant is pretty much 

12 producing on 5 to 100 megawatt per hour, that is 

13 able to give 3,000 to 6,000 homes every month. 

14 How will they get all that energy from renewable 

15 resources.

16 Next point is that further resources and 

17 deployment will also be there. We need to 

18 install these wind hydro turbines that will take 

19 months for approval from FERC and all those DOE 

20 organizations, and we will also trashing those 

21 steam turbines that have been already produced by 

22 these manufacturers.

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1 We need to focus on carbon emission 

2 reducing technologies that has not been the 

3 agenda of DOE or EPA. 

4 We should also focus on more electric 

5 cars. That has not been talked more about here. 

6 Now we just going to talk -- the cars also 

7 produce a good initiative that EPA hasn't taken. 

8 Why are we producing cars that have a top speed 

9 of 240 miles per hour when NHTSA actually has 

10 only 55 to 75 miles per hour limits. Why are we 

11 producing those cars expensive with a high 

12 combustion engine? Why can't you make them 

13 electric cars?

14 Let's put it this way, 100 cars that are 

15 gasoline based use 150 gallons per day, in 

16 compared to what, 150 gallons totals up to 25 

17 megawatts per hour that can be used by over 7,500 

18 homes per month. 

19 So let's put it this way, six gallons 

20 make up one megawatt per hour that can consume 

21 over 500 homes and we have six gallons of 

22 gasoline that can be covered by two to three cars 

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1 in a day. 

2 Next stop I want to talk about is, where 

3 is the other two third of emissions coming from? 

4 Why don't we focus on the 67 percent instead of 

5 23 percent per state? Why can't we control more 

6 emissions than actually have -- be able to focus 

7 on new energy technologies that are being used up 

8 and actually are still adapting to it?

9 DOE is focusing time on technologies that 

10 are cool in terms of energy but how much are they 

11 producing? Ten kilowatt per hour, or max of one 

12 megawatt per hour? Nothing having a conversion 

13 to solar, wind, and we don't have these resources 

14 everywhere.

15 Talk is big, I mean, but where are the 

16 rational results? Where are we focusing on? How 

17 can we get all these solar wind resources from 

18 there?

19 I hereby stand in the position of 

20 shutting down power plants that actually have 

21 section amount of areas where it can produce 

22 renewable power. Carbon emission control 

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1 technologies lead to the (indiscernible). Talk is 

2 big, but hey, actions are tough. 

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

4 MR. JOHNSON: My name is Bentley Johnson, 

5 B-E-N-T-L-E-Y J-O-H-N-S-O-N. And I work at the 

6 National Wildlife Federation here in Washington, 

7 D.C., but I am originally from Michigan and I am 

8 reading testimony on behalf of Deborah Hanson, 

9 also of Michigan.

10 My name is Deborah Hanson. I am a 

11 chaplain. I work at Sinai Grace Hospital in 

12 Detroit. Every day I saw the human costs of 

13 pollution from power plants, heavy industry, and 

14 an incinerator. And an abnormally high 

15 percentage of my patients suffered from asthma.

16 My former hospital is located near the 

17 third most polluted zip code in the U.S. where 

18 the marathon refinery and the DTE coal fired 

19 power plant fouled the air of neighborhoods.

20 Last November I had the pleasure of 

21 traveling to Chicago with 135 people from River 

22 Rouge Ecourse and Southwest Detroit for an EPA 

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1 hearing on the proposed new standard.

2 A number of couples brought their 

3 children along. Many of these people were 

4 testifying for the first time. It was exciting 

5 to hear their voices, their dreams, and their 

6 love for their children and their communities. 

7 These people are rarely heard. I want to echo 

8 their concerns. It is people like them, good 

9 people, who have the least political power and 

10 the fewest resources who have to live and raise 

11 their families near these power plants and 

12 refineries.

13 I now live in beautiful Northern 

14 Michigan. I rode that bus to Chicago because my 

15 power co-op was determined to build the last 

16 clean coal plant in the state and the EPA was 

17 proposing an exemption for the plant. This year, 

18 mercifully, they scrapped plans for that 

19 facility.

20 It's shocking and frightening to me to 

21 see my country lagging behind other countries in 

22 moving to clean renewable sources of energy. We 

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1 are already feeling the effects of climate 

2 change. It is time for bold action. 

3 I applaud this new standard for power 

4 plants and the proposed standard for refineries. 

5 Both are critical steps moving us away from coal, 

6 improving the quality of our air, and in 

7 mitigating global warming. 

8 I come to you today with one request. 

9 The EPA is holding hearings on the proposed 

10 standard for refineries in California and Texas, 

11 but not here in the heart of the Great Lakes. 

12 Please come to Detroit and give some courage to 

13 the disheartened who are living through a 

14 bankruptcy under two emergency managers.

15 A mother and a community leader said this 

16 when she heard about the proposed rule for 

17 refineries, "I'm ready. I've breathed enough o 

18 this crap. I want my kids to grow up without so 

19 many breathing issues."

20 We depend on your at the Environmental 

21 Protection Agency to provide the leadership 

22 needed in these times of danger and opportunity 

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1 to ensure a livable world. We commit to help 

2 building the political will to help back you up. 

3 Thank you.

4 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I'd like 

5 to invite up Eva Roben and Ishmael Buckner. 

6 MS. ROBEN: Hi. My name is Eva Roben. 

7 That's E-V-A R-O-B-E-N. And I work at National 

8 Wildlife Federation. I'm going to be reading a 

9 statement on behalf of Beverly A. Newman from the 

10 Planning and Conservation League.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to submit 

12 formal testimony regarding EPA's proposed Clean 

13 Power Plan. My name is Beverly Newman and I am 

14 writing to you from Folsom, California to express 

15 my strong support for EPA's historic action to 

16 combat climate change by citing limits on carbon 

17 pollution from existing power plants.

18 Here in California the starkest reminder 

19 of our changing climate is the current historic 

20 drought, which is compromising water access, 

21 agriculture, and the livelihoods of the people 

22 and wildlife who call California home.

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1 In the San Wakeen Valley community wells 

2 have gone dry, and residents have been forced to 

3 purchase bottled water for drinking, cooking, and 

4 bathing. 

5 In Northern California unprecedented 

6 wildfires threatened homes and communities 

7 throughout the winter. 

8 For wildlife this drought has been 

9 devastating. Bears and mountain lions are 

10 wandering further and further away from their 

11 habitats into urban and suburban settings in 

12 search of food and water. 

13 Migratory birds have had fewer wet places 

14 to stop and eat as they fly over the state, and 

15 dry river beds threaten the collapse of fisheries 

16 and the extinction of species.

17 Climate change promises to make droughts 

18 like this more common and more severe. I applaud 

19 EPA's efforts to reverse the course we are on and 

20 for taking action to combat carbon pollution and 

21 protect our natural resources for communities, 

22 wildlife, and future generations.

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1 The U.S. EPA's Clean Power Plan is a 

2 positive step towards a future that relies on 

3 climate and wildlife friendly sources of clean 

4 energy, rather than fuels that pollute our air 

5 and water.

6 The Clean Power Plan will go beyond 

7 reducing carbon pollution, protecting fish 

8 populations form mercury poisoning, and reducing 

9 the need for coal mines that destroy wildlife 

10 habitat and pollute our rivers and lakes. 

11 The Clean Power Plan will also stimulate 

12 investment and innovation in clean energy 

13 technologies and protect America's natural 

14 treasures for outdoor recreation. An industry 

15 that contributes $730 billion to the U.S. economy 

16 annually.

17 As you finalize the standard I ask that 

18 you work to ensure that it achieves the deepest 

19 reductions possible by requiring states to use 

20 wildlife friendly renewable energy and energy 

21 efficiency and not simply more natural gas 

22 burning.

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1 California has long been one of the 

2 engines behind America's clean energy economy, 

3 producing more energy from renewable sources than 

4 any other state. Nevertheless, 80 percent of our 

5 power generation comes from nonrenewables and 

6 dirty sources. EPA should strengthen the 

7 standard to reflect this potential.

8 Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

9 today and we look forward to working with you to 

10 finalize and implement the Clean Power Plan. 

11 Please do everything you can to ensure that it 

12 stays strong throughout the process. 

13 Communities, wildlife, and future generations are 

14 counting on you.

15 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

16 MR. BUCKNER: Hey. My name is Ishmael 

17 Buckner and I'm a resident of Maryland from not 

18 too far from here. I'm speaking on my own 

19 behalf, and I guess I wanted to talk first off 

20 just about I guess an incident that happened to 

21 me a couple weeks ago. I left, drove into D.C., 

22 came for a transportation meeting. I got a call 

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1 from my roommate who called to tell me that our 

2 house had flooded. 

3 And I said, oh, that's not going to be 

4 that big of a deal. Like our house, the basement 

5 door floods down there. 

6 He was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like I 

7 mean, it flooded. Like, it's four and a half 

8 feet, the basement is destroyed, Craig's room is 

9 destroyed, my roommate who lives down there. The 

10 dryer is floating. It's bad.

11 So I came back home. There had been a 

12 flash flood in Northern P.G. County. It was one 

13 of the worst. I talked to my neighbors, they 

14 have been living across the street for over 40 

15 years and they said they have never seen anything 

16 like it. Our entire basement was destroyed. The 

17 county came in and condemned our house. The 

18 power was cut off. 

19 And the biggest problem with this isn't, 

20 you know, what's going to happen to me and my 

21 roommates. We're fine. We were able to -- you 

22 know, I lost 80 percent of my clothes, but I can 

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1 buy more. Things were bad, but we were able to 

2 sort of build back. The basement is still in 

3 construction.

4 The real problem is what happens when a 

5 storm like that hits again. And the problem is, 

6 it did a couple weeks later, and it knocked down 

7 a tree, knocked out the power in our 

8 neighborhood, destroyed part of someone's house, 

9 destroyed their really expensive car because a 

10 tree fell on it. The street to my neighborhood 

11 was closed again. So I wonder what's going to 

12 happen next month when the next storm comes and 

13 it's strong than that one. And the next month, 

14 and the next year, or in five years. And sort of 

15 that idea that we have major problems. 

16 Climate change is real. It's hitting 

17 people. It's not something that we need to worry 

18 about for the future. It's something we need to 

19 worry about now. It's affecting people. It's 

20 affecting people across the globe. It's 

21 affecting people across the U.S. and at what 

22 point are we going to address it?

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1 And the Clean Power Plan seems like an 

2 actual attempt from the U.S. Federal Government 

3 to try and address lowering carbon emissions, 

4 actual step in addressing this massive global 

5 problem that the rest of the world has come to 

6 the realization is something that needs to be 

7 addressed that we, like on many issues, are sort 

8 of dragging our feet. 

9 And I'm happy. I'm really actually happy 

10 that the EPA is, you know, helping us to stop 

11 dragging our feet. That in this competition for 

12 renewable energy and for fighting climate change, 

13 you know, we might actually end up not -- you 

14 know, if it was a race, if climate change and 

15 addressing it and producing renewable energy was 

16 a race, at this point the U.S., you know, isn't 

17 even going to place. But these rules are 

18 actually an opportunity. 

19 It's an opportunity for us to do better. 

20 It's an opportunity for us to start to regulate 

21 some of the worst polluters thus far. Those are 

22 the polluters and the same communities that have 

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1 the highest asthma rates in the U.S. These are, 

2 you know, places that also have some of the 

3 poorest economic diversity in terms of industry. 

4 These are places where companies that have 

5 controlled the means of operation and life and 

6 survival for those communities for decades and 

7 decades.

8 To be quite honest, like the coal 

9 industry is dying. It's a dying industry. It's 

10 an industry that offers less jobs almost every 

11 year. It's an industry that is not where the 

12 innovation is, either in the U.S. or globally. 

13 It's an industry that, you know, has done some 

14 great things in the past. It helped us. It 

15 created a lot of jobs in a lot of places. 

16 I work in Virginia, the Southwest. For 

17 many decades there are lots of good jobs. A lot 

18 of those good jobs start to disappear. You know, 

19 the bottom line is, you know, blowing up 

20 mountains takes more robots and less people than 

21 digging holes in mountains. And now we're 

22 blowing up mountains.

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1 So we need to really think about how 

2 we're going to help to diversify the economy in 

3 the U.S. and to create jobs for places that have 

4 been hit really hard by the lack of good jobs 

5 created by the coal industry. And a lot of those 

6 places are the places that are going to have some 

7 improvements when we start to diversify those 

8 economies by addressing the reductions in Co2 

9 emissions. 

10 There are couple other issues that I'm 

11 sure you all know that you've been listening to 

12 testimony all day, and you wouldn't work for the 

13 EPA if you didn't already know the things were 

14 were talking about. There is, you know, a sense 

15 of formality to this, a sense of, you know, 

16 getting the public to talk. But you work at EPA. 

17 You already know this is a big issue. You 

18 already know this is a huge thing, and you 

19 already know the standards you're proposing 

20 aren't good enough. You know for a fact that the 

21 science on reducing carbon emissions is way -- we 

22 can do way, way more than what these rules are.

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1 But they're a great first step. And 

2 they're a first step that I'm going to help us 

3 walk. That's why I helped organize people to 

4 come here. It is why I decided, you know, I'm 

5 going to come back. I'll be here tomorrow 

6 talking to people, but I decided I wanted to 

7 speak now. There was some space. I want to be a 

8 part of that step. I want to be a part of us 

9 helping to walk forward. And a lot of Americans 

10 are. The majority of Americans think we should 

11 be doing something about climate change right 

12 now. 

13 So no matter how much money is coming in 

14 from ALEC or Dominion or whatever other 

15 corporations are putting in money and putting in 

16 people around the U.S., whether or not it's in 

17 Pittsburg, in Atlanta and whatever hearings, the 

18 reality is most Americans are on the side of us 

19 doing something. And you guys are actually doing 

20 something. So thank you.

21 Just a couple other points. When you 

22 talk about public health we talk about what 

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1 communities are hit. Black and brown communities 

2 in the U.S. are constantly hit with indignities, 

3 lack of access to fresh food, clean water, and to 

4 be honest it's kind of disgusting that the same 

5 communities that had their land and labor stolen 

6 for hundreds of years are the same communities 

7 that can't get access to food and air. This is a 

8 first step in helping to improve that. This is 

9 not just something that we should be doing. This 

10 is something that the U.S. needs to be doing. 

11 And we need to be doing this together.

12 It's really pitiful that Germany is 

13 outdoing us in terms of solar energy production. 

14 It's really embarrassing considering Germany is 

15 cold and doesn't get a lot of sunlight. And a 

16 huge part of the U.S. is actually a big open 

17 desert. A lot of the land in Nevada is actually 

18 controlled by the Federal Government. If we put 

19 solar panels on the desert we'd have power for

20 the rest of the country. Isn't that a crazy 

21 idea? It's not a complicated one, but it's one 

22 that these rules are going to start to help 

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1 develop. And that's why, you know, I came here 

2 to say thank you.

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. We have one 

4 more person before our dinner break, Julia 

5 Brooks. 

6 MS. BROOKS: My name is Julia Brooks and 

7 I live in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I'm a 

8 mother of a 10 year old daughter named Coretta. 

9 I support the Clean Air Act because I see 

10 the importance of the steps the country is 

11 taking. Our crops, our fruit, our farm lands and 

12 our environment are greatly affected, as well as 

13 our wildlife and environment. 

14 There are an increase in global warming 

15 and nature as well as we know it's greatly 

16 changing. Toxic carbons in the air -- in our air 

17 and water is at an all time high and our air 

18 increase is -- asthma is being greatly increased.

19 To the Board of Physicians, according to 

20 the Board of Physicians asthma has been greatly 

21 increased. 

22 The common practices and awareness of 

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1 these issues should be addressed and changes 

2 should be put in place. We can all do our part 

3 and raise the standards of clean air as we also 

4 initiate training and resources to move forward 

5 to stop pollution, toxins, and global warming.

6 Looking back at Three Mile Island, in 

7 affect it took on the environment and the 

8 residents that resided there, as well as oil 

9 spills and the affect it took on marine wildlife 

10 -- marine life in the country was something that 

11 I will never forget and hopefully will not happen 

12 again.

13 For generations to come and after us I am 

14 greatly gladly -- excuse me. I'm gladly happy 

15 that I was here to give a voice to this epidemic 

16 of our country and our environment, and I'd like 

17 to also Protection Agency in taking steps to move 

18 forward as such an important issue.

19 We can also help move forward by getting 

20 the public engaged and continuing to have 

21 meetings and workshops and training in addition 

22 to putting bills in place. Thank you.

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1 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much. 

2 We've now reached our, and surpassed by a few 

3 minutes, our 5:00 hour so we're going to adjourn 

4 until 6:00 or a few minutes thereafter so that 

5 people can grab a bite to eat for dinner, and 

6 we'll resume with about two hours more of 

7 testimony shortly after 6:00. Thank you very 

8 much.

9 (Dinner recess from 5:13 p.m. until 6:02 

10 p.m.)

11 MR. NIEBLING: Good evening. My name is 

12 William Niebling and I'm one of the chairs of 

13 today's public hearing. So thank you for coming 

14 today, or tonight.

15 Joining me on the panel this evening are 

16 Beth Conlin and Gabrielle Stevens. We are here 

17 today to listen to your comments on two proposed 

18 rules to reduce carbon pollution from power 

19 plants. EPA announced both of these proposed 

20 rules on June 2nd, 2014.

21 Power plants are the largest source of 

22 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

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1 roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

2 emissions. 

3 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

4 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

5 proposal consists of two main parts, state 

6 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

7 power plants, and guidelines to help states 

8 develop their plans for meeting the goals. 

9 The proposal gives states flexibility in 

10 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

11 choose what goes into their plans to show how 

12 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

13 their goals by 2030.

14 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

15 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

16 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

17 set emissions limits for two groups of power 

18 plants, those that make physical or operational 

19 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

20 achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 

21 that replace components to such an extent that 

22 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

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1 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

2 facility.

3 If you would like more details on either 

4 of those proposed rules there are fact sheets 

5 available near the registration desk.

6 Today's hearing is one of four public 

7 hearings across the country this week on the two 

8 proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 

9 each of the hearings and I'd like to thank you 

10 for taking time out of your day to day to join us 

11 and share your comments. 

12 We have a lot of people signed up to 

13 speak tonight and we want to hear from all of 

14 you. So before we get started I'd like to go 

15 back through a few housekeeping items and ground 

16 rules that will help make tonight's hearing run 

17 smoothly.

18 First, please be sure that you've checked 

19 in at the registration desk, even if you're not 

20 planning to speak to night. And if you signed up 

21 to speak online or by phone but haven't yet told 

22 us that you're here, please step out to the 

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1 registration desk and let the EPA staff there 

2 know that you've arrived.

3 Second, if you are a speaker you were 

4 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

5 or Room B. This is Room A so make sure you're in 

6 the right room, and if not it's a good time, 

7 probably to switch. 

8 So here's how tonight's hearing will 

9 work. I'll call up speakers in pairs and when 

10 your name is called please come to the table 

11 across from us at the front of the room. When I 

12 call on you to speak please state your name and 

13 spell it for the court reporter. That will help 

14 her a lot.

15 Your comments will be transcribed and 

16 included in the record of comments on the 

17 proposed rules. 

18 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

19 give comments, and we have a light over here to 

20 help you know how much time you have left to 

21 speak. When the light turns from green to yellow 

22 that means you have one minute remaining. When 

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1 the light turns red it's a signal to wrap up your 

2 testimony. It will flash red and beep when 

3 you've spoken for five minutes and that's the 

4 time to stop.

5 When you're finished speaking please 

6 remain at the table until the person next to you 

7 has completed his or her testimony. We're here 

8 to listen to you today. That said, a panel 

9 member may ask you questions to clarify some of 

10 your comments that we don't fully understand.

11 I will then call up the next pair of 

12 speakers after the pairs have finished, and so on 

13 and so forth. If you brought a written copy of 

14 your testimony please give that to us or to the 

15 staff at the registration desk before you leave 

16 today. 

17 Because of the large number of people who 

18 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

19 everyone, we're going to have to try to strictly 

20 enforce the five minute limit. If you have 

21 additional comments you would like to make you 

22 can submit them in writing and I can assure you 

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1 that EPA gives just as much consideration to 

2 comments we receive in writing as we do to 

3 comments that we receive orally at public 

4 hearings like this one. So if you have more that 

5 you'd like to say, please submit it and your 

6 comments will be reviewed.

7 There's still plenty of time to get 

8 written comments in. It doesn't have to be 

9 tonight, and there are comment cards available at 

10 the registration desk. Comments must be received 

11 by October 16th, 2014 and we'll put any written 

12 comments submitted today or between now and 

13 October 16th in the official docket for the 

14 proposed rules.

15 Instructions for submitting written 

16 comments in other ways are available at the 

17 materials table near the registration desk.

18 We're scheduled to go until about 8:00 

19 p.m. tonight. We may take an occasional short 

20 break if it's necessary and we'll keep you posted 

21 on that. If you have any questions please see 

22 the staff at the registration desk and somebody 

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1 will try to help you.

2 Finally I would like to ask each of you 

3 in the audience to please be respectful of 

4 everyone who speaks tonight. We have people with 

5 a wide variety of views and we want to hear from 

6 each of you. So that we can do that and to be 

7 fair to everyone we ask that everyone listen 

8 quietly. Even applause can sometimes slow things 

9 down and we want to make sure we get to hear from 

10 everyone who signed up to speak without keeping 

11 you all here too late.

12 Thank you again for taking the time 

13 tonight to share your comments on the EPA's 

14 proposed rules.

15 Let's get started. The first two people 

16 for this evening's session that I would like to 

17 call forth would be Matt Gravatt and and Collin 

18 Rees. 

19 MR. GRAVATT: Good evening. My name is 

20 Matthew Gravatt. That's M-A-T-T-H-E-W G-R-A-V-A21 T-T. I'm a consultant here in Washington, D.C. 

22 and I'm here today on behalf of the D.C. Chapter 

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1 of the Sierra Club. 

2 In the Climate Action Plan recently 

3 released by the Obama Administration a particular 

4 section stood out to me that said, "While no 

5 single step can reverse the effects of climate 

6 change, we have a moral obligation to act on 

7 behalf of future generations."

8 Climate change represents one of the 

9 major challenges of the 21st Century, but as 

10 nation of innovators we can and will meet this 

11 challenge in a way that advances our economy, 

12 environment, and public health all at the same 

13 time.

14 As the EPA, the Administration, and the 

15 American Public all know our nation is facing a 

16 ticking clock on addressing climate change. What 

17 we do now in spite of challenges from the 

18 opposition can and should be a bold response to 

19 the problems of greenhouse gas emissions, an 

20 aging power generation fleet, and a serious 

21 public health hazard.

22 The American people deserve a common 

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1 senses plan to address greenhouse gas emissions 

2 and mitigate the effects that toxic pollutants 

3 and climate disrupting gases have on children, 

4 families, and communities all across the nation.

5 The EPA's proposed clean power plan does 

6 exactly that. Presently power generation 

7 facilities are the single largest source of 

8 climate disrupting greenhouse gas emissions in 

9 the United States. They account for roughly 40 

10 percent of total domestic greenhouse gas 

11 emissions and carbon pollution.

12 While we currently regulate some of the 

13 pollutants produced by burning fossil fuels, 

14 toxic compounds like arsenic, mercury, and lead, 

15 the Clean Power Plan will eliminate carbon 

16 pollution and thus reduce the amount of noxious 

17 and disruptive pollutants currently spewing from 

18 power plants all across the nation, including the 

19 one just down the street here in D.C.

20 As we all know, just as we know that 

21 toxic chemicals are harmful to our bodies and our 

22 communities, we also now know that carbon 

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1 pollution and greenhouse gases have a significant 

2 and devastating effect on the planet. Carbon 

3 pollution exacerbates climate disruption leading 

4 to increased extreme weather events, sea level 

5 rise, and catastrophic tragedies that cost 

6 communities, the federal government and our 

7 national economy billions of dollars each year.

8 Under the clean power plan the United 

9 States will have a real and actionable framework 

10 to both drastically reduce carbon emissions from 

11 existing power plants and significantly increase 

12 public health. 

13 First the Clean Power Plan will reduce 

14 carbon emissions by 730 million metric tons and 

15 that's the equivalent of removing the annual 

16 emissions of half of the homes in the United 

17 States, 67 million.

18 Second, the plan will have a significant 

19 and measurable effect on public health and save 

20 the American people money. The reduction in 

21 emissions will prevent upwards of 140,000 asthma 

22 attacks in children and thousands of hospital 

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1 admissions, and avoid over 470,000 missed days of 

2 school and work each year.

3 Last, the plan will be a catalyst for 

4 innovation and entrepreneurship in developing and 

5 building a 21st Century clean energy economy. 

6 The plan will create jobs, inspire new 

7 technologies, and help realign the United States 

8 as a leader in the design, production, and 

9 manufacture of clean energy generation systems 

10 and associated industries.

11 In addition to these benefits the plan 

12 allows states to choose how to meet plan 

13 objectives and goals. Under the plan individual 

14 states will have the flexibility they need to 

15 develop customized plans and keep energy 

16 affordable, reliable, and ensuring that the 

17 residents have clean air to breath. 

18 Ultimately under the plans, the states 

19 have the ability to develop innovative solutions 

20 that match the unique needs of their workforce 

21 and economy and together might further serve to 

22 amplify and expand job opportunities bring in new 

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1 industry and ensure a robust 21st Century 

2 economy.

3 In closing, federal agencies from here to 

4 the moon, or at least from the EPA to NASA have 

5 recognized and warned of the very real dangers of 

6 carbon pollution. 

7 There are opponents -- or opponents of 

8 this plan might seek to sit idly by as the sea 

9 rises to meet them. I think the President put it 

10 right, again in his Climate Action Plan. Again 

11 he said, we are a nation of innovators. We can 

12 and will meet this challenge. And the Clean 

13 Power Plan is a key step towards doing that. I 

14 applaud the EPA for its bold action and the 

15 release of the Clean Power Plan and encourage the 

16 implementation of these rules and limits without 

17 delay. Thank you.

18 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

19 MR. REES: Good evening. My name is 

20 Collin Rees and I work with the youth sustainable 

21 development and climate advocacy group called 

22 Sustain U.S. 

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1 As a trained engineer who has worked on 

2 climate change in business, civil society, and 

3 the U.S. Government, I have been involved in 

4 policy and climate issues for many years. 

5 I'm here to testify in favor of a strong 

6 and just carbon pollution standard under Section 

7 111D of the Clean Air Act. 

8 The draft standards released last month 

9 are not nearly strong enough and will not do 

10 enough to change our energy mix and put us on the 

11 path to a clean energy future and a livable 

12 planet. 

13 Global warming is real. It 

14 disproportionally impacts our most vulnerable 

15 populations who contributed the least to 

16 cumulative greenhouse gas emissions, and its 

17 effects are already impacting and killing 

18 millions of people across the U.S. and the world. 

19 It will only continue to worsen until we 

20 make a true meaningful commitment to stopping it. 

21 These standards for existing sources can be an 

22 important step in that commitment, or they can be 

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1 weak and lack ambition as the draft standards do 

2 now.

3 Simply put the overall 2030 target for 30 

4 percent of emissions reductions from 2005 levels 

5 outlined in the proposed rule is laughably weak. 

6 One of the stated goals of the Obama 

7 Administration's Climate Action Plan is for the 

8 U.S. to be an international leader on climate and 

9 help guide the world to a safe climate future.

10 If the Administration brings this 

11 mitigation target of 30 percent to the table 

12 during the next 18 months of the United Nations 

13 Climate Talks, it will dangerously derail the 

14 negotiations process and dim hope for a 

15 meaningful global agreement. 

16 Earlier this year the Union of Concerned 

17 Scientists reported that encouraging natural gas 

18 based energy production will lead directly to a 

19 future energy mix in which 2050 emissions will be 

20 virtually identical to today's emissions. 

21 Reductions for more efficient and retired coal 

22 plants will be negated by retirement of low 

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1 carbon nuclear plants, none of which will be able 

2 to compete economically with gas and renewable

3 energy sources.

4 Natural gas extraction also has direct 

5 and harmful impacts on frontline communities in 

6 the U.S. A true commitment to emissions 

7 reductions means we must severely limit carbon 

8 pollution from natural gas sources. But these 

9 proposed standards achieve the opposite by 

10 encouraging new natural gas development and the 

11 switching of plants from coal to natural gas and 

12 combined cycling.

13 I would also like to express my strong 

14 concern that the draft 111D standard incentivize 

15 development and continuation of carbon trading 

16 systems rather than meaningful investments in 

17 efficiency and renewable energy sources. 

18 All such existing trading systems fail to 

19 achieve their stated goals due to poor 

20 construction and gaping loopholes and 

21 disproportionately target communities impacted by 

22 extraction and environmental justice concerns. 

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1 This sort of business friendly approach 

2 buttresses the false narrative that given proper

3 incentives the existing energy system will change 

4 its ways and reduce emissions drastically.

5 History and common sense show this to be 

6 a farcical ideal. Only by implementing systemic 

7 change and building a new energy sector will the 

8 world succeed in meeting continued development 

9 goals while adequately mitigating and adapting to 

10 the ravages of climate disruption.

11 I urge the EPA to not underestimate the 

12 responsibility that lies before them. The window 

13 to address the climate crisis is closing rapidly 

14 and we must act on climate now. The climate is 

15 changing, extreme weather events are on the rise, 

16 and millions of people are already dying and 

17 being displaced due to the impacts of climate 

18 disruption. 

19 Current generations are dangerously 

20 imperiled and the fate of future generations lies 

21 in your hands. By issuing just ambitious carbon 

22 pollution standards based on science and 

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1 commensurate with the scale of the challenge 

2 ahead of us, America can be a global leader in 

3 fighting climate change and put us on a path to a

4 clean energy future and a healthy planet. 

5 Anything less is an abandonment of basic human 

6 rights and a tarnished climate legacy. 

7 Thank you for your time.

8 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next I would 

9 like to invite up, please, Molly Simon and Sam 

10 Lockhart. 

11 MS. SIMON: Hi. My name is Molly Simon 

12 and I work for the National Wildlife Federation 

13 and I am delivering testimony on behalf of Burr 

14 Tupper, who is the former chair of Trout 

15 Unlimited in New Hampshire. 

16 New Hampshire, geographically, is the 

17 sixth smallest state, yet we have over 12,000 

18 miles of streams and rivers and over 1,000 ponds 

19 and lakes. We have a rich heritage that we are 

20 obligated to protect today and for future 

21 generations.

22 As a freshwater angler in New Hampshire I 

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1 am concerned about the increasing number of major 

2 storms, the higher water temperatures, and the 

3 decrease in cold water habitat that we have been 

4 experiencing in the last few years, and their 

5 impact on cold bird species and their habitat.

6 Our planet is facing a time of 

7 unprecedented environmental climate change. The 

8 warming of the Earth's surface is predicted to 

9 have dramatic effect on human society, wildlife, 

10 and water and fish. 

11 A litany of scientific evidence 

12 demonstrates that due to the buildup of carbon 

13 dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, and greenhouse 

14 gases, our atmosphere is warming and that global 

15 climate change is changing at a rapid pace. We 

16 have the tools and knowhow to impact this decline 

17 today. 

18 While the climate crisis is ultimately a 

19 global problem we can be the leader in driving 

20 forward policies here at home. Addressing carbon 

21 pollution requires the following priority 

22 actions. Use and protect the proven existing 

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1 laws to tackle carbon pollution. The Clean Air 

2 Act was put in place to protect people and 

3 wildlife from pollution. Under this law the EPA 

4 has the authority and the obligation to limit 

5 carbon pollution, most notably from large sources 

6 like coal fired power plants.

7 Prioritize clean energy and reduce fossil 

8 fuel use. A serious effort to reduce carbon 

9 pollution must include smart energy choices that 

10 reduce dependence on fossil fuels and move us 

11 quickly towards a future powered by clean energy. 

12 It is essential that clean energy sources be 

13 developed in an environmentally responsible way 

14 to minimize potential effects on fish and 

15 wildlife. 

16 Trout and Salmon are especially 

17 vulnerable to global warming because they are 

18 dependent on cold clear water to survive. When 

19 the cold water warms these rising temperatures 

20 will have negative impact on the fish and eggs 

21 and the adults. Trout and Salmon are already 

22 facing pressures and their current habitats are 

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1 threatened by urbanization, farming, logging, and 

2 mining. This, coupled with climate change will 

3 reduce or eliminate many trout and salmon 

4 habitats. 

5 There are already indications that cold 

6 water habitats in our state are being impacted by 

7 increasing algae. Aquatic insects, their food 

8 source, are emerging sooner, and the rivers and 

9 parasites and diseases that were limited by cold 

10 water are increasing as streams, ponds, and lakes 

11 are warming sooner. This impacts the size and 

12 number of fish produced naturally.

13 We can no longer wait to take action to 

14 address the increasing threats to New Hampshire's 

15 fresh water fish. Climate change is already 

16 having significant impacts on important rivers, 

17 streams, lakes, and ponds, and the aquatic 

18 habitats and their native organisms and fish. We 

19 need to act now to tell our congressional 

20 delegation to continue to support current 

21 legislation and help enact additional legislation 

22 that will protect our precious resources. Thank 

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1 you.

2 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

3 MS. LOCKHART: Hi. My name is Samantha 

4 Lockhart, L-O-C-K-H-A-R-T, Samantha, S-A-M-A-N-T5 H-A.

6 And I work for the National Wildlife 

7 Federation as the National Outreach Coordinator. 

8 But today I'm going to be reading the testimony 

9 of our affiliate representative from the North 

10 Carolina Wildlife Federation. His name is 

11 Richard Mode. 

12 Members of my panel, and the panel, my 

13 name is G. Richard Mode. I don't know what the G 

14 stands for. I am from Morganton, North Carolina. 

15 I've been involved in wildlife conservation for 

16 four decades. 

17 During my adult years I have had the 

18 opportunity to serve as a volunteer leader with 

19 organization that champion wildlife conservation. 

20 I serve through all the volunteer leader 

21 offices in Trout Unlimited from local chapter 

22 president through national president and chairman 

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1 of the board. 

2 Currently I am a senior member of the 

3 North Carolina Wildlife Federation, Board of 

4 Directors, and serve as affiliate representative 

5 to National Wildlife Federation.

6 During that volunteer service I was 

7 blessed to receive the highest awards all three 

8 organizations bestow, and in 2007 I received the 

9 Budweiser National Fish and Wildlife Foundation 

10 National Conservationist of the Year Award.

11 I review that background only because as 

12 lifelong angler and wildlife habitat advocate I 

13 have had the opportunity to communicate with and 

14 work with hundreds of thousands of sportsmen and 

15 wildlife enthusiasts, from the length and breadth 

16 of our country.

17 Like me they spend their time outdoors 

18 and spend their hard earned dollars on the 

19 outdoor interests they love. It is the very 

20 nature of a passionate sportsman that they 

21 experience and observe our natural world and 

22 wildlife habitats. 

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1 When you spend your time afield for a 

2 period of years it is easy to see the impacts of 

3 climate change on wildlife habitats. It is the 

4 consensus of the sportsmen and the wildlife 

5 community that wildlife habitats are changing, 

6 and changing quickly. 

7 As a dedicated trout angler I have 

8 observed trout streams warming, streams that are 

9 marginally cold enough to maintain a trout 

10 population are warming to a point that they will 

11 no longer sustain trout. Cold water scientists 

12 predict that a small rise in temperatures will 

13 reduce the range of the Appalachian Brook Trout, 

14 North Carolina's only native salmonid species to 

15 a small percentage of its contemporary range.

16 For almost 40 years one of my family's 

17 favorite trips is to go to Eastern North Carolina 

18 to fish Phelps Lake for largemouth bass. We've 

19 always gone in June because this Picosin spring 

20 fed natural lake was warm enough for the kids to 

21 swim in and warm enough to wade, wet, and throw 

22 popping bugs to bass in the grass beds.

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1 The past two summers we went down a few 

2 weeks early. The water was so hot it was 

3 uncomfortable to wade in. Bass were driven out 

4 of their normal feeding and nursery grounds in 

5 the shallow weed beds to deep water with no 

6 cover. The bass were nowhere to be found in 

7 cover. 

8 As an avid duck hunter I have tracked 

9 migratory bird patterns from 45 years. For years 

10 we hunt our local Wood Ducks and Mallards early 

11 in the season. After they migrate away from our 

12 area we usually have only a few ducks. But then 

13 sometime after Christmas the large flocks of 

14 migratory birds move into our area from up north. 

15 Over the last few years those birds have come 

16 later and later. 

17 During last winter season they did not 

18 come. It was a season that wasn't in the 

19 foothills of Western North Carolina. A much 

20 anticipated trip to Southern Maryland the last 

21 week of the season in February was called off 

22 when our host called and said, don't come, the 

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1 birds are still doing the backstroke in Canada.

2 Conservative estimates of sea level rise 

3 on the coast of Eastern North Carolina show that 

4 we are going to lose 1,500 square miles of prime 

5 estuarine habitat. This is incredible wildlife 

6 habitat and supports a robust seafood nursery 

7 habitat and migratory bird habitat. 

8 We currently have mercury advisories on 

9 fish consumption in North Carolina from the Great 

10 Smoky Mountains to the Outer Banks. It's 

11 appalling that North Carolinians cannot consume 

12 the fish they catch due to toxins spewed into the 

13 air. Our loss of the special places and the 

14 special pursuits we hold dear and our call to 

15 protect them from the worst consequences of 

16 climate change and toxins is admittedly self17 serving. But these pursuits are also an economic

18 driver in the state and serve all North 

19 Carolinians. 

20 Two and a quarter million people hunt, 

21 fish, and observe wildlife in the states. We 

22 spend $2.6 billion a year in the pursuit of our 

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1 passion and create over 46,000 jobs. 

2 Additionally outdoor recreation related tourism 

3 is a major economic driver in the state. This 

4 business relies on a robust natural resources 

5 base to continue to attract visitors.

6 I have two granddaughters, and another on 

7 the way. I want them to be able to experience 

8 the joys of wild North Carolina the way I have. 

9 Fifty years from now I do not want their children 

10 to be drawing cartoons of you and me with our 

11 heads in the sand. I do not want them editing a 

12 caption over the cartoon that says something 

13 like, "You had the opportunity, why didn't you 

14 act?"

15 The sportsman and wildlife community

16 applaud the development of these carbon rules 

17 that impact new coal burning power plants, 

18 welcome the mercury rules, and hope you will 

19 proceed with speed to implement these rules as a 

20 next step to protecting wildlife habitats and our 

21 natural world from the worst impacts of climate 

22 change and toxic emissions. 

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1 After these rules are implemented we urge 

2 EPA to proceed with rules that would deal with 

3 existing coal burning power plants and accomplish 

4 the same objective. Thank you.

5 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next up we 

6 have James Collins and Stephanie Heron. 

7 Why don't we go ahead and skip to the 

8 next two people and when James and Stephanie come 

9 in they can be next. That would be Ann 

10 Darwickirn and Raymond Palencia, please. Ramon, 

11 excuse me. 

12 I guess it's just you.

13 MR. PALENCIA-CALVO: I don't know who is 

14 the other person. You want me just -- buenos 

15 noches. Good evening and thank you for the 

16 opportunity to provide the following comments.

17 My name is Ramon Palencia-Calvo, R-A-M-O18 N P-A-L-E-N-C-I-A, hyphen, C-A-L-V-O. And I am 

19 the Latino Outreach Program Director of the 

20 Maryland League of Conservation Voters, an 

21 organization that advocates for sound

22 environmental laws and policies and monitors he 

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1 environmental choices of its elected officials.

2 I am providing comments today on behalf 

3 of Casa De Maryland, Green Latinos, Latino 

4 Justice, Peace and the Integrity of Creation, 

5 Committee of St. Camilla's Catholic Church, 

6 Maryland League of Conservation Voters, and 

7 Maryland Churches Center, which represent a large 

8 and diverse segment of Maryland's Latino 

9 population and across the country.

10 We support the Environmental Protection 

11 Agency's efforts to limit carbon pollution from 

12 existing power plants. Moreover, we would like 

13 to express the concerns of overburdened Latino 

14 communities and to offer specific recommendations 

15 on how the Environmental Protection Agency can 

16 better address those concerns.

17 Climate change is one of the biggest 

18 public health threats of our time. Among 

19 Latinos, respiratory diseases are reaching 

20 epidemic proportions. Air pollution is one of 

21 the main causes, especially carbon dioxide and 

22 other pollutants released from power plants and 

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1 other facilities which also cause climate change. 

2 Since nearly 40 percent of Latino families live 

3 within 30 miles of a power plant and many lack 

4 the health insurance and access to basic 

5 healthcare services, we are the first to feel the 

6 impacts of climate change and these pollutants, 

7 and the last to receive help. For us, the Clean 

8 Power Plan is crucial to the health and safety of 

9 our communities.

10 As the proud father of a five year old 

11 daughter and a sufferer of childhood asthma I am 

12 concerned about the high rate of asthma in our 

13 community. One in 10 Latino children suffer from 

14 asthma, each a real story of a family that might 

15 not be able to afford medicine or take their kids 

16 to the hospital when they are having an asthma 

17 attack. A story of kids that cannot play soccer 

18 with the rest of their friends or just have a 

19 normal life and thrive. This scenario that plays 

20 out far too often in Latino communities.

21 For Latinos and other minorities, the new 

22 standards have the potential to be real life 

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1 savers and dramatically benefit the safety 

2 wellbeing, and the health of our communities by

3 protecting our children, grandchildren, and 

4 future generations from the harmful effects of 

5 carbon pollution. 

6 However, there are a number of concerns 

7 that need to be addressed to protect the welfare 

8 of our burdened communities and increase their 

9 capacity to address environmental injustice and 

10 environmental health disparities.

11 We recommend that the EPA conducts a 

12 thorough environmental justice analysis of this 

13 proposed plan and makes environmental justice 

14 analysis conducted at the state level a required

15 part of the state implementation plan.

16 We suggest significant engagement efforts 

17 with the most vulnerable communities and 

18 inclusion and participation of community 

19 advocates and environmental justice leaders 

20 during the state implementation process. 

21 We also recommend energy that solutions 

22 benefit communities. From housing incinerators

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1 to the exploration and extraction of natural gas, 

2 community concerns must be seriously taken into 

3 consideration. 

4 States need to make sure low income 

5 communities have fair access to renewable energy 

6 programs and renewable energy systems.

7 Finally, in representing Latinos for 

8 Maryland and across the country, we urge you 

9 stand firm on your commitment to protect the 

10 health of all Americans and support Executive 

11 Order 12898, Federal Action to address 

12 environmental justice in minority populations and 

13 low income populations, making environmental 

14 justice an integral part of the Environmental 

15 Protection Agency's mission. 

16 Muchas gracias, and thank you.

17 MR. NIEBLING: Gracias. Are James 

18 Collins or Stephanie Heron present? 

19 MR. COLIN: First, thank you for changing 

20 my time at the last minute. 

21 MR. NIEBLING: No problem.

22 MR. COLIN: My name is James Collins. 

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1 I'm a student organizer and undergraduate and I'm 

2 also a dual citizen of United States and Japan. 

3 But despite my dual citizenship I've only really 

4 become an environmentalist so far in only the 

5 United States. An that's because having spent my 

6 entire life back and forth between the U.S. and 

7 Japan and viewing politics through the lenses of 

8 both nations, I can easily say that the Japanese, 

9 like the citizens of many other countries, 

10 display greater concern when it comes to tackling 

11 climate change. 

12 Not only is there frequent discourse on 

13 the issue within the Japanese political arena, 

14 but there is also a strong, what I would call, a 

15 climate change culture ingrained in the daily 

16 lives of the people there as well.

17 This is why, when I left my home and 

18 moved to the United States for higher education I 

19 was shocked to see the lack of action and apathy 

20 among policy makers on the issue. I therefore 

21 thought the most civil and perhaps most patriotic 

22 thing I could do for this country would be try to 

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1 change that.

2 The United States is the world's greatest 

3 superpower with the capacity and responsibility 

4 to lead the world to the most pressing issue of 

5 our time. 

6 With the shredding of the Kyoto accords 

7 and the failure to reach a binding agreement 

8 during Copenhagen accords many Americans with 

9 deep concerns for environmental issues have 

10 become embarrassed by the actions or inactions of 

11 their government.

12 Though our current president attempts to 

13 work with the rest of the international community 

14 in reducing Co2 levels his credibility is 

15 weakened as he cannot make any serious change 

16 domestically. The rest of the world is 

17 frustrated and has had enough of the U.S.'s 

18 passivity on the issue.

19 For instance, during Warsaw U.N. Climate 

20 Change Conference last year, and after the huge 

21 typhoon that killed thousands of people in the 

22 Philippines, we saw representatives of the 

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1 Philippine delegate go on hunger strike for the 

2 duration of the conference until a meaningful 

3 agreement was made. And at the same conference

4 we also saw a group of 133 developing countries 

5 participate in a walk-out during the proceedings 

6 after frustrations over the lack of 

7 responsibility by the more industrialized 

8 countries such as ours.

9 On climate action the frequent criticisms 

10 I hear all the time from skeptics is that doing 

11 anything to reduce Co2 would be futile as long as 

12 the two other big polluters, India and China 

13 remain passive. Well, even as we speak both 

14 those nations have taken more radical steps to 

15 reduce Co2 emissions, with India having 

16 implemented a nationwide carbon tax, and China 

17 investing twice as much money on renewable energy 

18 investments than here in the U.S. 

19 So, I believe the skeptics should stop 

20 pointing fingers and realize that the change 

21 needs to happen here, and it can happen here.

22 It's time that we wake up and realize 

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1 that change must come here and the Clean Power 

2 Plan proposal is not only just welcoming for 

3 pretty much everyone in this room, but also a 

4 great opportunity for the United States to join 

5 the rest of the international community in taking 

6 serious efforts toward tackling climate change.

7 We must start taking -- we must start 

8 creating a climate change culture here in the 

9 U.S. as well and use our great power to shoulder 

10 this great responsibility. Thank you.

11 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

12 MS. HERON: My name is Stephanie Heron. 

13 I'm with the Delaware Chapter of the Sierra Club 

14 and I was not planning to speak so I did not 

15 prepare any comments in writing, so I'll try to 

16 be brief and on topic. But I can't promise 

17 anything.

18 Being from Delaware and having always 

19 lived in Delaware except for the four years that 

20 I was in college in Virginia, I have always cared 

21 about the environment but not always known that 

22 I've cared about it, not necessarily even 

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1 realizing what the environment really was until I 

2 was in college.

3 In 2009 I had the very amazing 

4 opportunity to go on a service trip to New 

5 Orleans to visit -- visit, I guess, is a weird 

6 word. New Orleans. And we participated in 

7 rebuilding a house there that had been torn apart 

8 by Hurricane Katrina, which I believe was in 

9 2005. When I was there in 2009 there were 

10 houses, still whole neighborhoods abandoned, 

11 houses with an X with a circle around them with 

12 numbers on the different corners of the Xs, which 

13 I came to realize after being told that the 

14 different numbers meant the things they found 

15 inside, including people's bodies. So that was 

16 very life changing and weird and amazing 

17 experience all at the same time.

18 One of the things that really touched me 

19 about that experience was that the people who 

20 lived in that area were so appreciative and so 

21 wonderful and so happy that you were there to 

22 help them, and that they really didn't 

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1 participate in the way that I participated and a 

2 lot of other people did in causing the problems 

3 that were effecting them, climate change being 

4 obviously a main problem. Although they are SCD, 

5 at sea level, which was not something that I knew 

6 how much I could relate to until I moved back to 

7 Delaware after college.

8 Living in Delaware I believe someone from 

9 our group mentioned it earlier today, but there 

10 are a lot of roads in Delaware that are 

11 impassible. Sometimes just at high tide, and 

12 certainly always after it rains. Route 9, down 

13 the coast of Delaware, which is almost entirely a 

14 coastal state is a road that is very beautiful. 

15 It's along the Delaware River, a lot of it, and 

16 it's a quicker way to to get to some places that 

17 I would normally go. But I never go on that road 

18 because as part of my personal commitment to the 

19 environment I have a very small car and it is 

20 very low to the ground, and there is water that I 

21 cannot drive through on a regular day. 

22 So we feel the impacts of climate change 

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1 every day in our state. No Delawarean lives more 

2 than eight miles, I believe it is, from tidal 

3 waters. And Delaware is estimated by our own sea 

4 level rise advisory committee that by 2100, 

5 between eight to 11 percent of our state will be 

6 permanently inundated by sea water that's not 

7 during a flood event or a storm. That's all the 

8 time. That is really huge. 

9 Also, being from a small state that is in 

10 between a lot of big cities, D.C. being one of 

11 them, sort of in between D.C. and New York, which 

12 is convenient but not when you are breathing. We 

13 certainly -- not to say that we have no part in 

14 our own air quality problems, but Delaware is 

15 consistently rated by the American Lung 

16 Association with a D or an F grade. Usually an F 

17 in ozone, especially in the county in which James 

18 and I live, which is New Castle County. Our 

19 state has been -- consistently have complaints 

20 with the Clean Air Act, partially because of our 

21 own doing and partially from pollution that blows 

22 into our state from power plants in other states 

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1 that we have no control over. 

2 And as somebody else when I was in here 

3 earlier mentioned, we have a very very severe 

4 problem with asthma. Particularly the childhood 

5 asthma. I know this very personally from having 

6 a slight case myself. I sometimes need a respite 

7 inhaler, but it's not very bad. I do however 

8 have an eight year old cousin, just turned eight, 

9 who has to do the inhaler, the puff machine every 

10 single night. And there are several several 

11 dozen days a year when it's not safe for her to 

12 even be outside in our state. 

13 So I just wanted to say that I really 

14 support the efforts and this effort to come up 

15 with the Clean Power Plan and I really support 

16 the idea behind it and the quick implementation 

17 of it. But I don't feel that it goes far enough 

18 and I do agree with many others, though I won't 

19 repeat, that it does tend to emphasize power 

20 switching from coal to natural gas, which is 

21 fossil fuel to fossil fuel, and it's not good 

22 enough. So, thank you.

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1 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much, 

2 Stephanie.

3 MS. HERON: Also, I have 35 postcards 

4 from other Delawarians who couldn't make it. 

5 Should I give them out at front?

6 MR. NIEBLING: At the registration desk 

7 would be great.

8 MS. HERON: Okay. Thank you.

9 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much. And 

10 is Ann Darwickirn present now?

11 MS. HERON: No, she's in the other room. 

12 They told -- should I get her and bring her in?

13 MR. NIEBLING: Sure, eventually. But 

14 we'll move on to Joe Power and Tom Quinn, please. 

15 MR. POWER: Shall I start, or --

16 MR. NIEBLING: Please. 

17 MR. POWER: Okay. Well, my name is Joe 

18 Power, P-O-W-E-R, P as in Paul, O-W-E-R. 

19 I'm Vice President of Federal Legislative 

20 and Regulatory Affairs for Ameren Corporation. 

21 Ameren Corporation is a public utility holding 

22 company with electric and gas utility subsidiary 

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1 or operating companies, serving roughly 3 million 

2 people in Missouri and Illinois. 

3 Ameren believes that the proposed rule is 

4 legally and technically flawed, will result in 

5 significant cost increases to our customers and 

6 businesses, cause job losses and damage the 

7 economy.

8 However, before I discuss our concerns I 

9 will discuss what Ameren has been doing to 

10 protect the environment and our plans going 

11 forward. 

12 For many years Ameren has been taking 

13 steps to reduce emissions with the goal of 

14 transitioning our fleet to a cleaner, more 

15 diverse portfolio. We have installed scrubbers 

16 and other pollution control devices, improved 

17 unit efficiency, converted landfill gas to 

18 energy, contracted for wind power, expanded our 

19 nuclear capacity, promoted and are installing 

20 solar power, increased hydro capacity, and 

21 implemented significant energy efficiency 

22 programs in both Illinois and Missouri. 

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1 We have made progress in reducing our 

2 carbon footprint and are executing a 20 year plan 

3 designed to reduce emissions even further in a 

4 responsible manner. Our plan involves adding 

5 more renewables and combined cycle natural gas, 

6 increasing energy efficiency, retiring coal 

7 plants at the end of their useful lives, and 

8 replacing them with cleaner resources, as well as 

9 retaining options for greater levels of nuclear 

10 generation.

11 Our plant can achieve, at 30 percent 

12 reduction from 2005 emission levels, over a 

13 slightly longer timeframe at a cost to consumers 

14 that we currently estimate at $4 billion lower 

15 than the cost of EPA's proposed rule. And that's 

16 just with respect to our customers.

17 Turning now to EPA's proposal, Ameren 

18 recommends that EPA define and limit the emission 

19 standards based solely on what is achievable at 

20 existing power plants. States should then be 

21 given the flexibility to develop any programs 

22 that achieve an equivalent emission reduction. 

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1 If EPA rejects this proposal numerous other 

2 changes should be made. And I'll highlight a 

3 couple of them now.

4 First and foremost, EPA should eliminate 

5 the aggressive interim goals that start in 2020. 

6 Failure to make this adjustment will cause Ameren 

7 to incur 2 billion in capital investments by 

8 2020, which will in part lead to nearly 4 billion 

9 of higher rates, $4 billion of higher rates, for 

10 customers through 2034. 

11 We recommend you replace the interim 

12 retirements with a directive to states to develop 

13 nonbinding emission reduction milestones that are 

14 reasonably achievable and reflect the state's 

15 view of the appropriate glide path to the state 

16 reduction goal. This single action will greatly 

17 reduce the cost of the rule and will provide 

18 greater flexibility to the states.

19 We also believe that target compliance 

20 states should not be set in stone at 2030. 

21 Rather, states should be given the flexibility to 

22 extend the date in order to allow the orderly 

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1 transition of generation fleets. This will help 

2 mitigate the potential for liability concerns and 

3 rate shock, which will be particularly harmful to 

4 our low income and fixed income customers.

5 For Ameren the compliance date would be 

6 2035, yet significant reductions would occur 

7 prior to that time. These changes would save 

8 Ameren customers nearly $4 billion when compared 

9 to the proposed EPA rule, and still achieve 

10 significant GHG reductions.

11 Ameren also believes the rule will not 

12 properly credit coal plant retirements that are 

13 not replaced with new generation under a rate 

14 based compliance program. It is assumed that 

15 under a rate based program both the emissions of 

16 Co2 and the megawatt hours generated from the 

17 retired coal plants are removed from the emission 

18 rate calculation when determining compliance. 

19 This approach does not properly reflect the 

20 emission reduction gained, because it produces 

21 only a minor reduction in the overall emission 

22 rate. In order to properly reflect the benefits 

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1 of coal plant retirements, these units should be 

2 treated as zero emitting units, whereby the 

3 associated megawatt hours are left in the 

4 denominator, similar to the way energy efficiency 

5 is treated I the rule.

6 As noted Ameren believes the rule is 

7 legally flawed and will not withstand judicial 

8 review. First, EPA has not applied the rule to 

9 specific sources, but instead requires each state 

10 to meet a performance standard, developed by 

11 application of a BSER that is a combination of 

12 inside the fence line and outside the fence line 

13 activities. This is a radical departure from 

14 EPA's past practice in the commonly accepted 

15 interpretation of the Clean Air Act.

16 A related legal argument involves EPA's 

17 intrusion into matters which have been 

18 traditionally left solely to the states. 

19 Specifically EPA's proposal to define BSER as 

20 relying on a certain level of renewables in 

21 energy efficiency intrudes on a state 

22 jurisdiction, and if implemented would represent 

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1 a transformative expansion of its authority not 

2 approved by Congress.

3 In addition, regulation under Section 

4 111D cannot occur until new sources of a similar 

5 kind are regulated under Section 111B. By 

6 establishing a BSER that includes nuclear, 

7 renewable energy, renewables, and energy 

8 efficiency which are not regulated under Section 

9 111B, EPA's proposed rule violates the Clean Air 

10 Act. 

11 Finally, EPA is precluded from regulating 

12 the effected units under Section 111D because 

13 they are regulated under Section 112. In 

14 conclusion Ameren believes the proposed rule is 

15 legally and technically flawed, will result in 

16 significant cost increases to our customers and 

17 businesses, cause job losses, and damage the 

18 economy. We will be filing comments which will 

19 provide greater detail on all these issues and 

20 others, and we urge you to read them and give 

21 them due consideration. 

22 I thank you for the opportunity to speak 

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1 here today. 

2 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. We look 

3 forward to your written comments.

4 MR. QUINN: Good evening. My name is Tom 

5 Quinn, T-O-M Q-U-I-N-N. And I am a resident of 

6 Washington, D.C. in here tonight as the proud 

7 parent of three and seven year old boys. I'm not 

8 spending the evening with them tonight because I 

9 believe it is more important to be here 

10 testifying in favor of the EPA's proposed Clean 

11 Power Plan.

12 Signs of global warming are unmistakable 

13 and indisputable. Just yesterday National 

14 Geographic photographer, Paul Nicklen posted on 

15 Facebook that for the first time in 20 years of 

16 his summer visits, there is no sea ice in the 

17 waters around Spitsbergen Island which is 

18 situated between the Greenland Sea and Arctic 

19 Ocean. And that it is possible within the next 

20 few years the Arctic Ocean could be completely 

21 free of sea ice during the summer months. And 

22 last month NOAA issued a report detailing 

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1 expected increases in flooding in 45 U.S. cities 

2 as a result of rising sea levels. 

3 But here at home summers are getting 

4 hotter, winters milder, and hurricanes large 

5 enough to impact a northern inland city like 

6 Washington, D.C. with widespread power outages 

7 and significant property damage are becoming 

8 annual events.

9 The United States is currently the 

10 greatest contributor to global warming gases, and 

11 though some utter complaints about the fairness 

12 of the burden to lead on this issue, I consider 

13 it an opportunity for the United States to take 

14 the lead on this issue both morally and 

15 economically.

16 Currently U.S. power plants account for 

17 40 percent of our nation's total carbon 

18 pollution. And though as a nation we have made 

19 great strides in regulating many of the dangerous 

20 pollutants from our power plants, like mercury, 

21 lead, and arsenic, the United States must step up 

22 and also regulate carbon emissions from those 

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1 same plants.

2 While many are lamenting the economic 

3 shifts and costs that such changes may 

4 necessitate, particularly as old inefficient coal 

5 fired power plants are either upgraded or taken 

6 off line to meet new carbon standards, these 

7 changes are necessary and overdue.

8 Shifting to newer energy sources, 

9 particularly renewable sources like wind and 

10 solar, will lead to a new wave of construction of 

11 these means of harnessing alternative energy 

12 sources, which will by necessity be accompanied 

13 by a new workforce to build and manage that 

14 infrastructure.

15 But there are two other important reasons 

16 for making this switch. Most importantly the new 

17 regulations will force all older power plants to 

18 either run cleaner or be shut down. According to 

19 a 2012 report from the NAACP, older coal fired 

20 power plants are overwhelmingly located in and 

21 near poor communities of color. 

22 As a parent it breaks my heart that 

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1 through no fault of their own, less fortunate 

2 children are forced to grow up in communities 

3 with poor air quality and higher rates of asthma 

4 simply because we don't have the courage as a 

5 country to require that our electric be sourced 

6 from cleaner and lower carbon emitting power 

7 sources.

8 But this is an important segue to perhaps 

9 the most important reason why the EPA should 

10 embrace the Clean Power Plan, and that is because 

11 the United States has a responsibility to lead. 

12 Because we are the world's largest economy, 

13 because we are the world's largest polluter, and 

14 most importantly because if we don't lead then no 

15 one else will. And that is why I am disappointed 

16 that the proposed plan requires the least 

17 improvement from the most polluting states.

18 It is great that the plan requires even 

19 states that have already made great strides in 

20 improving their power sources and carbon 

21 emissions to improve further, but it is equally 

22 disheartening that states that have done the 

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1 least are asked to do the least in this proposal. 

2 While it may make political sense to 

3 expect the least from more conservative coal 

4 dependent states, it does not make policy or 

5 fiscal sense to hold them to a lower standard, 

6 and it means that this proposal will not go as 

7 far as it possibly could. And of course it also 

8 forces the residents of these same states to 

9 continue living with the local pollution 

10 associated with dirtier and older power sources.

11 For the above reasons I strongly 

12 encourage you to not only implement the plan as 

13 proposed, but to extend the same standards to all 

14 states because all of our citizens deserve 

15 cleaner air and the opportunity to contribute to 

16 a better world. Thank you again for your time.

17 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next we'd like 

18 to invite up Lukas Ross and Marissa Knodel. 

19 MR. ROSS: Thank you. My name is Lucas 

20 Ross. I work on energy policy for an 

21 organization called Friends of the Earth. 

22 Clearly this is a very wide ranging rule. 

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1 In many ways it is a step forward, in other ways 

2 it isn't a step at all, and in others it is a 

3 step back. 

4 Natural gas is a case in point. If you 

5 had to pick the single biggest winner of this 

6 rule, there is no question it would be natural 

7 gas. By 2030 the role of gas in our energy mix 

8 is expected to rise from 27 percent to 32 

9 percent. According to one analysis that was 

10 released just last week, the rule is going to 

11 increase natural gas consumption by 40 percent 

12 between 2020 and 2030.

13 This should concern us for a number of 

14 reasons. The rule does not appropriately or 

15 accurately measure fugitive methane emissions, 

16 which when factored into a lifecycle analysis of 

17 gas, may make it even dirtier than coal. Because 

18 it is underestimating the levels of methane, it 

19 overestimates the possible savings from gas.

20 More reliance on natural gas means more 

21 fracking, which means more contamination of our 

22 air and our water, more predatory leasing 

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1 practices, and more corporate money spilling into 

2 our local, state, and federal elections to help 

3 purchase favorable regulations.

4 But the most dangerous thing about this 

5 rule isn't just that it encourages more gas, it 

6 is that it encourages more gas infrastructure. 

7 It is a signal from the Federal Government that 

8 the private sector is clear to invest billions in 

9 every segment of the natural gas supply chain. 

10 This means more pipelines, more compressor 

11 stations, more processing facilities, and 

12 obviously more gas fired power plants. 

13 Once money has been sunk into these 

14 projects it is exceedingly unlikely that 

15 investors will abandon them without recovering 

16 their costs, a process that could easily take 

17 decades, prolonging our fossil fuel addiction by 

18 another generation. 

19 Worst of all, it prolongs this addiction 

20 at a time when alternatives are more reliable and 

21 affordable than ever. Citi Bank, hardly known 

22 for its progressive convictions, recently 

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1 declared that we are entering the age of 

2 renewables, as wind and solar emerge as price 

3 competitive alternatives for period of peak 

4 demand.

5 And although we can always promise that 

6 the sun and the wind will be free, you cannot 

7 guarantee that natural gas is even going to be 

8 cheap. It is an incredibly volatile commodity 

9 used for a variety of competing purposes, from 

10 electricity and heating, to chemical 

11 manufacturing, and even transportation. Every 

12 one of these sources of demand is a potential 

13 source of electricity price volatility that could 

14 be passed along to consumers as our grid becomes 

15 more dependent on gas.

16 So when it comes to the future of this 

17 rule I urge the EPA to not tie the future of our 

18 economy to a dirty and unreliable fuel, and 

19 instead keep the path clear for renewable energy 

20 and energy efficiency. Thank you.

21 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

22 MS. KNODEL: Good evening. My name is 

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1 Marissa Knodel, and I recently moved to 

2 Washington, D.C. to join the organization, 

3 Friends of the Earth to campaign for --

4 MR. NIEBLING: Would you please spell 

5 that? Would you please spell that for our court 

6 reporter?

7 MS. KNODEL: Yes. Absolutely. 

8 MR. NIEBLING: Because it's not obvious.

9 MS. KNODEL: First name is M-A-R-I-S-S-A, 

10 last name Knodel, it's K-N-O-D-E-L. 

11 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

12 MS. KNODEL: You're welcome. I recently 

13 joined Friends of the Earth to campaign for laws 

14 and policies that mitigate the adverse impacts of 

15 climate change. 

16 I'm here today to express support for the 

17 Clean Power Plan, which is laudable in that it 

18 purposes limits to carbon emissions from the 

19 dirtiest most polluting sources of energy. I am 

20 concerned about the impacts of climate change on 

21 our nation for a number of reasons, but today I 

22 want to share with you a life changing experience 

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1 I had in October 2010 that truly puts a human 

2 face on climate change and highlights the 

3 importance of taking immediate action to mitigate 

4 it through the Clean Power Plan, but also the 

5 need to strengthen the plan in order to avoid the 

6 worst impacts of climate change.

7 In October 2010 I received funding to 

8 research the ways in which native communities in 

9 Alaska are adapting to a change in climate and 

10 whether those methods are perceived as disastrous

11 for the community or opportunities to build

12 resilience.

13 The community I spent the most time in is 

14 called Kivalina, and it's located on an eight 

15 mile barrier island in the Chukchi Sea, 80 miles 

16 above the Arctic Circle. Due to warmer sea 

17 temperatures, sea ice formation is unpredictable. 

18 No longer is the ice thick or extensive enough to 

19 support whale hunting in the spring, a core part 

20 of the Inuit subsistence lifestyle. 

21 In addition the sea does not freeze until 

22 later in the winter, leaving the community 

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1 vulnerable to flooding and erosion during the 

2 intense October storm season. In fact the 

3 residents of Kivalina have earned the notorious 

4 distinction of being America's first climate 

5 refugees as the Army Corps of Engineers 

6 determined the island will be uninhabitable 

7 within the next several years.

8 Community displacement and permanent 

9 relocation are not adaptations confined to remote 

10 regions of the Arctic. I was living in Vermont 

11 when Tropical Storm Irene destroyed the homes of 

12 friends and neighbors, forcing them to not just 

13 relocate, but for many farmers, restart their 

14 livelihoods. 

15 A little over a year later I was in 

16 Connecticut when Super Storm Sandy buffeted the 

17 coast, leaving me and thousands without power and 

18 hundreds of others without shelter and basic 

19 amenities. 

20 As the recent National Climate Assessment 

21 concluded, these types of extreme weather events 

22 will become the norm in a warming world. Stories 

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1 of displacement and permanent relocation, 

2 especially among communities that are poor, 

3 vulnerable, and least able to adapt will increase 

4 with them. Only by taking immediate action to 

5 stop the production of greenhouse gas emissions 

6 can we help to mitigate these negative impacts in 

7 the future.

8 The emissions reductions and the Clean 

9 Power Plan are an important step in the right 

10 direction, but not nearly stringent or fast 

11 enough. The people of Kivalina and many other 

12 vulnerable communities do not have until 2030 to 

13 avoid the worst impacts of climate change, and 

14 our nation cannot afford from an environmental, 

15 economic, human rights, or justice standpoint, to 

16 wait any longer.

17 I appreciate all of you taking the time 

18 to listen to my comments this evening. Again, I 

19 support the Obama Administration and the EPA in 

20 their efforts to reduce carbon emissions from 

21 existing power plants, but cannot emphasize 

22 enough the urgency of our situation if those

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1 reduction targets are not increased with the goal 

2 year of 2020 instead of 2030. Thank you very 

3 much.

4 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next we'd like 

5 to welcome up Kate DeAngelis and Luisa Abbott6 Galvao. 

7 MS. DEANGELIS: Thank you for the 

8 opportunity to comment on the EPA's Clean Power 

9 Plan. My name is Kate DeAngelis, and I represent 

10 Friends of Earth, U.S.

11 President Obama's proposed limits on 

12 carbon pollution represent the most significant 

13 step any American president has taken to limit 

14 carbon pollution. It is important to address 

15 emissions from the electric power sector because 

16 it contributes almost 40 percent of the country's 

17 emissions. Despite this, the rule is not 

18 stringent enough to force the emission reductions 

19 necessary to avoid the worst impacts of global 

20 climate disruption.

21 I would like to encourage EPA to make the 

22 following changes to strengthen the rule. 

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1 First, the reduction targets for each 

2 state are woefully insufficient and should be 

3 increased. These targets range from far too 

4 lenient to reductions that would have taken place 

5 without the rule. The state targets add up to a 

6 national goal that will not avert the worst 

7 impacts of climate change. Substantial 

8 reductions should be required by 2020, and even 

9 greater reductions in the future.

10 Greenhouse gases remain in the atmosphere 

11 for decades after they are released, so they have 

12 a strong cumulative effect. Immediate reductions 

13 are more important than future reductions. 

14 Waiting 15 years is an unacceptable delay. 

15 In addition the base year should be 

16 changed from 2005 to 1990, because having 2005 as 

17 a baseline takes credit for reductions that have 

18 already occurred.

19 Second, increased reliance on natural gas 

20 will not reduce our emissions, but will only 

21 continue our dependence on dirty fossil fuels. 

22 The climate impacts of natural gas remain unclear 

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1 and could be as bad as coal. This is because the 

2 extraction, processing, and transportation of 

3 natural gas release large amounts of methane, 

4 which is 86 times more potent than carbon 

5 dioxide. The leakage of methane could be 100 to 

6 1,000 times higher than what the EPA estimates, 

7 making the climate impacts much worse than 

8 currently calculated.

9 Additional natural gas would also require 

10 increased fracking. High levels of toxins have 

11 been in the air near fracking wells. These 

12 toxins cause such health impacts such as 

13 headaches and nausea. Fracking also contaminates 

14 drinking water with billions of gallons of toxic 

15 waste each year, and could potentially result in 

16 an increase in earthquakes.

17 Third, a massive shift away from fossil 

18 fuels to renewable energy is necessary to avoid 

19 the worst impacts of climate change. More 

20 ambitious renewable energy targets are 

21 achievable. The rule's targets are much lower 

22 than what is possible. The majority of states 

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1 have mandatory or voluntary renewable energy 

2 portfolio standards, many of which require more 

3 renewable energy than EPA predicts. 

4 For example, Missouri's existing clean 

5 energy policies have them on track to meet the 

6 EPA's target by 2021. Moreover, many states have 

7 huge renewable energy potential that could meet 

8 their entire electricity needs. All states 

9 should be required to greatly increase their 

10 reliance on clean renewable energy such as wind 

11 and solar. 

12 Those states that have been more 

13 ambitious should be forced to go further, and 

14 coal dependent states should be forced to make

15 substantial shifts from coal to clean renewable 

16 energy. 

17 Finally, the EPA should allow states to 

18 implement a carbon tax as a means to comply with 

19 the power plant rule. A carbon tax allows states 

20 to efficiently reduce their emissions while 

21 raising additional revenue. EPA should clarify 

22 that states are allowed to implement a carbon tax 

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1 as a compliance mechanism. EPA has given a 

2 strong signal to states that meeting their 

3 targets with cap and trade will be acceptable, 

4 but barely mentions a carbon tax. The rule 

5 should explicitly allow a sufficiently robust 

6 carbon tax and then discuss how such a tax would 

7 be acceptable, including analysis on the price 

8 that would need to be set to result in the 

9 required emission reductions, and how the carbon 

10 tax could be administered. 

11 Thank you for taking the time to listen 

12 to my comments. I support the EPA's efforts to 

13 address carbon pollution from existing power 

14 plants, but encourage the EPA to strengthen the 

15 targets so the rule will result in a reduction 

16 sufficient to prevent catastrophic climate 

17 change. Thank you.

18 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

19 MS. ABBOTT-GALVAO: My name is Luisa 

20 Galvao, I represent Friend of the Earth. 

21 In 1961 President John F. Kennedy gave a 

22 speech to Congress, announcing his goal of 

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1 putting a man on the moon. Eight years later, it 

2 was done. The EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan 

3 gives states two to three years to submit 

4 emission reduction plans, and 15 years to 

5 implement them. Fifteen years.

6 Fifteen more years of pollution is not 

7 something our climate can afford. This is not 

8 about the environment versus the economy, but 

9 that is exactly what rich industry folk want 

10 everyone to think. They want to divide and 

11 conquer the American public.

12 Every air breathing and water drinking 

13 person in this room is an environmentalist. No 

14 one should have to choose between having a job to 

15 feed their family and clean air so that their 

16 children can play outside without getting asthma 

17 or cancer. So we should all be asking ourselves 

18 while we continue to be presented with false 

19 choices. 

20 These power plant rules, while a step in 

21 the right direction, are deplorably weak. This 

22 Administration is promoting false solutions like 

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1 clean coal, nuclear, and not so natural gas, when 

2 the right solutions like wind and solar are 

3 literally staring us in the face. 

4 Our country's addiction to fossil fuels 

5 is more than an environmental issue. It's a 

6 worker's issue, a public health issue, a 

7 democracy issue, and a civil rights issue. And 

8 if fossil fuels are in fact so problematic, what 

9 exactly is stopping America from having a more 

10 ambitious energy plan?

11 How come we can put a man on the moon in 

12 eight years, but we can't start shifting to clean 

13 energy like solar and wind by quarter century? 

14 How is it that in this rich country some of us 

15 are told that our only choices between polluting 

16 jobs and no jobs, that we must choose between 

17 dangerous sources of energy and affordable energy 

18 bills at the end of the month; that we must 

19 choose between using our land to grow food on and 

20 using our land to grow fuel. That we have to 

21 choose between energy security and climate 

22 security.

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1 I'll tell you why in two words, industry 

2 profits. In this great country of opportunity 

3 and innovation, it's a shame that our leaders are 

4 failing to create the kind of jobs that Americans 

5 are entitled to, and to invest in energy sources 

6 that are clean and renewable and affordable, and 

7 that our country needs to harness in order to 

8 remain competitive in the global market.

9 I support regulating greenhouse gas 

10 emissions from power plants, but we need to make 

11 sure that these rules are significantly improved. 

12 Thank you.

13 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Luisa. Next up 

14 we have Rebecca Blood and Rachel Goodermote. 

15 MS. BLOOD: Good evening. My name is 

16 Rebecca Blood, B as in Becky, L-O-O-D. I'm here 

17 to speak on behalf of the National Hydropower 

18 Association. 

19 National Hydropower Association, NHA, is 

20 a nonprofit associate dedicated to representing 

21 the interests of the United States hydropower 

22 industry. We include all technologies, 

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1 conventional, pump storage, new marine, and 

2 hydrokinetic technologies, and our membership is 

3 vast.

4 We're here to talk about America's 

5 leading renewable electricity resource. 

6 Hydropower provides approximately seven percent 

7 of our nation's total electricity supply, or 

8 100,000 megawatts of installed capacity. And the 

9 majority of America's total renewable 

10 electricity. 

11 Hydropower can double its contribution 

12 towards a clean energy economy, helping to avoid 

13 millions of additional tons of carbon emissions, 

14 serve as a cost effective compliance option, 

15 create hundreds of thousands of new jobs, 

16 strengthen our national infrastructure, and 

17 increase the reliability and resiliency of our 

18 electric grid, all priorities for the current 

19 administration.

20 We appreciate this opportunity to talk to 

21 you today about the Clean Energy Plan. We see 

22 this as an opportunity for federal and state 

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1 regulatory decision makers to include hydropower 

2 as a viable compliance tool to reduce overall 

3 emissions. Therefore, NHA respectfully asks that 

4 EPA and states consider the following 

5 recommendations.

6 One, that all existing and future 

7 hydropower resources and technologies, should be 

8 recognized as compliance options. Hydropower 

9 technologies include conventional, technologies 

10 including incremental hydropower, retrofits, 

11 capacity additions, and efficiency upgrades, pump 

12 storage, marine and hydrokinetics, conduits, and 

13 new development.

14 Our second recommendation is that EPA's 

15 guidance to states should recognize existing 

16 programs and activities, and ensure the use of 

17 hydropower toward meeting emission reduction 

18 goals. 

19 And number three, EPA should afford 

20 states maximum flexibility in designing their 

21 state implementation plans in this proceeding. 

22 We've reviewed the existing draft 

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1 guidance, and we're evaluating additional 

2 impacts. We want to emphasize that what we've 

3 seen so far is that we are concerned whether the 

4 rule is actually recognizing and taking into 

5 account all the clean air benefits of hydropower 

6 and how it provides as well as providing the 

7 necessary market signals in support of new hydro 

8 development. 

9 So we are analyzing these issues in the 

10 rule, and we anticipate that we will file 

11 comments on the treatment of hydropower in this 

12 debate, and we want to determine a chance for 

13 states to look at us as a compliance option, and 

14 how it will be used by each state and by each 

15 region throughout this country. 

16 So thank you for this opportunity. We're 

17 very grateful for this time to bring these issues 

18 before your attention.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

20 MS. GOODERMOTE: Hi. Good evening. My 

21 name is Rachel Goodermote and I'm here today to 

22 express my support for a strong EPA rule limiting 

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1 carbon pollution from existing power plants, both 

2 as a public health professional -- yes sir?

3 MR. NIEBLING: Please spell your last 

4 name for the reporter.

5 MS. GOODERMOTE: Oh yes, no problem.

6 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

7 MS. GOODERMOTE: Sorry. It's Goodermote, 

8 G-O-O-D-E-R-M-O-T-E. 

9 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

10 MS. GOODERMOTE: No problem. It's 10 

11 minutes. 

12 Sorry. So I'm here as both a public 

13 health professional and as well as personally I 

14 feel strongly about the new EPA rule. 

15 I received my masters from Johns Hopkins 

16 University, Bloomberg School of Public Health, 

17 and I worked extensively on -- firsthand on 

18 disastrous spawns and other issues directly 

19 related to the effects of climate change and 

20 public health.

21 Currently I work with physicians with 

22 social responsibility on similar issues.

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1 Reducing the amount of carbon pollution 

2 emitted by existing power plants is not game. In 

3 fact healthy air and environment strengthens 

4 economic and community stability, improves 

5 property values and encourages new business 

6 ventures. 

7 Additionally coal fired power plants cost 

8 the U.S. anywhere from $120 billion to $523 

9 billion annually, and have been associated with 

10 tens of thousands of premature deaths, hundreds 

11 of thousands of hospital visits, heart attacks, 

12 as well as asthma attacks.

13 Other pollutants released by these power 

14 plants, such as fine particulate air pollution 

15 are positively believed associated with both 

16 cardiovascular and lung cancer as well in 

17 addition to other chronic respiratory illnesses. 

18 If not for air public and economic health 

19 it is extremely important for the United States 

20 to take the strong stance on carbon pollution as 

21 a role model for the global community. While 

22 working disaster preparedness in Indonesia I saw 

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1 firsthand how many of the environmental engineers 

2 and policy makers in that country look to the 

3 U.S., and actually specifically the U.S. EPA for 

4 guidance on best practices. 

5 During my work abroad several people 

6 asked how U.S. was doing with carbon pollution 

7 and the effects of climate change and disaster 

8 response. Especially following Hurricane Sandy, 

9 I go this question a lot. Whether in New Jersey 

10 or West Java, it's extremely difficult to explain 

11 to someone who has just lost their home that 

12 disasters like the one they just experienced are 

13 more likely to happen frequently and stronger 

14 with climate change, and the U.S. has made no 

15 changes as of yet, to the way that they limit 

16 carbon pollution from our largest source.

17 As leaders for the global community, if 

18 we do not move forward with these changes no one 

19 will, and no one will win. 

20 On a more personal note I grew up in the 

21 mountains of Maine, Vermont, and Colorado, and 

22 have a strong connection to that outdoor winter 

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1 sports community which in some respects seems a 

2 little trivial. However, the outdoor industry 

3 and specifically the snow sports industry, 

4 including skiing, snowboarding, and other 

5 activities, contributes an estimated $67 billion 

6 annually to the U.S. economy. Thus it supports 

7 over 600,000 jobs in countless communities.

8 In the last three decades the rate of 

9 winter warming has accelerated dramatically in 

10 the northern U.S. where communities have started 

11 to see negative consequences of climate change 

12 firsthand. When there is no snow, recreation 

13 centers have to close and businesses stop hiring. 

14 Those who move do, and shops and restaurants 

15 close, mountain conditions worsen, towns look 

16 less appealing to tourist. 

17 I've seen small towns from Maine to 

18 Colorado, usually filled with local pride, 

19 struggling to get by under uncertain conditions.

20 I want to be clear that climate change is 

21 no longer a global issue for these communities. 

22 It is a very real, local, and serious issue. 

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1 Finally, I want to emphasize that it's 

2 still possible to make improvements. Studies 

3 have shown that reduced particulate pollution and 

4 co-pollutant Co2, is associated with reduced 

5 mortality risk. This means that not only do we 

6 have the opportunity to create improvements in 

7 the health of future generations, but we also 

8 reduce carbon and fine particulate pollution that

9 will create measurable impact on today's 

10 communities.

11 By setting a national rule to reduce 

12 carbon pollution from established power plants by 

13 30 percent in the year 2030, the proposed power 

14 plan is a very accomplishable goal developed by 

15 the EPA and can act as a model for other nations. 

16 It is an important first step to moving towards a 

17 better public health, safety, and better future 

18 economic stability against the negative effects 

19 of climate change. Thank you.

20 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you both. Next up 

21 we would like to invite Emma McGonigle and Matt 

22 Carr. 

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1 MS. MCGONIGLE: Are we ready? Okay.

2 I'm Emma McGonigle. As a graduate 

3 student I studied international development and 

4 I've learned a lot -- this is my son. I thought 

5 I could showcase him but he might not last, so.

6 MR. NIEBLING: All right. 

7 MS. MCGONIGLE: I've learned a lot about 

8 the negative effects of climate change on a 

9 global scale, which has not only opened my eyes 

10 to what people are experiencing in the four 

11 corners of the world, but I've also had the 

12 chance to develop a deeper understanding of how 

13 climate change is affecting our country.

14 As a West Virginian I grew up in a state 

15 exploited for its rich coal reserves, where the 

16 government imposed loose regulations for profit 

17 in exchange for the safety of the people. Coal 

18 is one of the major fossil fuels burned in power 

19 plants, which account for 40 percent of carbon 

20 pollution in the U.S. 

21 As a mother, I have struggled with the 

22 thought of leaving my son the legacy of a 

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1 volatile world due to climate change. This has 

2 caused me great grief and has even made me feel 

3 existentially depressed. But I realize there's 

4 still a fight and my son has given me the 

5 strength and purpose to stand before you all 

6 today.

7 More directly I would like to ensure that 

8 he, Nicco, has clean air to breath. 

9 The consensus is that the most effective 

10 means of mitigating climate change is to reduce 

11 carbon emissions. As most of us know carbon 

12 pollution increases climate disruption, causing 

13 more frequent and severe weather that jeopardizes 

14 communities, incurring costs to the federal 

15 government and the economy, as well as 

16 threatening public health.

17 Reducing carbon emissions is the most 

18 urgent agenda item for both the health of our 

19 citizens, but also for the safety of planet 

20 Earth.

21 Cutting carbon pollution from power 

22 plants will also enable innovation of clean 

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1 energy sources, which will grow the economy and 

2 create jobs. I read a quote recently by Robert 

3 Rubin --

4 (Child crying)

5 By Robert Rubin, the co-chair of the 

6 Council on Foreign Relations and the former U.S. 

7 Treasury secretary. He said, "We do not face a 

8 choice between protecting our environment or 

9 protecting our economy --

10 (Child crying.)

11 Excuse me. I'm sorry. 

12 We face a choice between protecting our 

13 economy by protecting our environment, or 

14 allowing environmental havoc to create economic 

15 profit." 

16 I wholeheartedly agree with this 

17 statement. I also believe that the Clean Power

18 Plan is a huge step in the right direction to 

19 supporting the emerging green economy. 

20 The carbon rules are part of Obama's 

21 Climate Action Plan. This could be the most 

22 impactful climate policy in the nation to date. 

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1 The Clean Power Plan also recognizes that 

2 each state is different and gives flexibility to 

3 adapt the policy to their unique conditions and 

4 economic environment. The plan will 

5 simultaneously reduce carbon emissions and help 

6 create cleaner air for our children to breathe. 

7 I attend Gallaudete University and work 

8 with the deaf community. My work involves 

9 inclusion of people with disabilities and 

10 impoverished communities and development and 

11 economic initiatives. I'm standing here today to 

12 represent those people who do not have a voice, 

13 and also who don't have the opportunity to come 

14 here to speak for the council.

15 I represent rural America, places like 

16 West Virginia, where the health of the people is 

17 constantly compromised by power plant pollution. 

18 I come here most of all to represent my son and 

19 all the children who will be impacted in years to 

20 come by the possibility of passing the Clean 

21 Power Plan. Thank you.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. I think we 

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1 can, as an act of compassion, release you early. 

2 MS. MCGONIGLE: Excuse me?

3 MR. NIEBLING: I think we can, as an act 

4 of compassion for your son, release you early and 

5 --

6 MS. MCGONIGLE: Thank you so much.

7 MR. NIEBLING: -- Mr. Carr will get the 

8 table to himself.

9 MS. MCGONIGLE: Sorry for the disruption. 

10 Do you need a copy of this, or --

11 MR. NIEBLING: If you'd leave a copy with 

12 the registration table. 

13 MS. MCGONIGLE: Perfect. Thank you.

14 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. The table is 

15 all yours. Thank you.

16 MR. CARR: Matt Carr, Executive Director 

17 of the Algae Biomass Organization. M-A-T-T C-A18 R-R. 

19 On behalf of the Algae Biomass 

20 Organization I greatly appreciate the opportunity 

21 to comment on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

22 emission guidelines for existing sources. 

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1 ABO is the trade association for the 

2 algae industry, and we represent leading 

3 developers of renewable, sustainable products 

4 from algae. Our membership includes producer 

5 companies, research institutions, utilities, 

6 airlines, and other end-users, and a range of 

7 other partners throughout the algae supply chain.

8 ABO appreciates and supports EPA's 

9 efforts to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide 

10 from power plants and other industrial sources. 

11 We think, you know, appropriate regulation can 

12 help mitigate the rise in atmospheric Co2 

13 concentration, but it also represents tremendous 

14 opportunity to foster the growth of technologies 

15 that utilize Co2 as an input for renewable 

16 sustainable products. And this is particularly 

17 true for Algae. 

18 ABO members are developing a wide range 

19 of algae technology platforms to emergency Co2 to 

20 renewable fuels, chemicals, fertilizer, plastics, 

21 feed ingredients, and other products.

22 Algae thrive on concentrated sources of 

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1 Co2, and to provide the optimal environment for 

2 growth today's algae developers are actually 

3 purchasing commercial Co2 at great expense as a 

4 feed stock. ABO members would welcome the 

5 opportunity to participate in reducing emissions 

6 of Co2 from the power sector by partnering with 

7 utilities to utilize captured carbon as a feed 

8 stock, transforming Co2 from an expensive waste 

9 disposal issue and to a resource that will 

10 benefit the industry, environment, and rate 

11 payers.

12 ABO members are in fact in active 

13 negotiations with utilities to do just that. 

14 ABO has serious concerns, however, that 

15 the proposal as written could have a profound 

16 chilling effect on the development of algae and 

17 other Co2 utilization technologies. The proposed 

18 rule offers states flexibility in developing 

19 compliance plans, but by making no mention of 

20 carbon capture and utilization while

21 affirmatively recognizing other compliance 

22 options, including carbon capture and 

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1 sequestration or storage, the proposed rule risks 

2 sending a signal to states and investors that 

3 carbon utilization is not a preferred mitigation 

4 strategy. And I think this would be a profound 

5 missed opportunity.

6 Algae CCU is adequately demonstrated, 

7 technically feasible, it can be implemented at a 

8 reasonable cost and provide meaningful emissions 

9 reductions, while serving to promote further 

10 development and deployment of the technology.

11 Since 2010 the Department of Energy has 

12 helped advance algae Co2 utilization by funding a 

13 dozen projects. CCU is being demonstrated in at 

14 least six states and ABO members are in 

15 partnerships in China and several other nations 

16 to deploy algae CCU technology. 

17 By creating a market for captured carbon, 

18 carbon utilization can mitigate, offset, or even 

19 negate the cost of carbon capture and provide a 

20 Co2 reduction mechanism that minimizes the cost 

21 to rate payers. Algae producers need Co2 and 

22 they will pay power producers to get it.

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1 On the reduction side, even when 

2 subsequently combusted as a transportation fuel, 

3 Co2 utilization produces meaningful emissions 

4 reductions by displacing additional fossil fuel 

5 combustion. Peer reviewed life cycle analysis of 

6 the two largest commercial algae demonstration 

7 production facilities show reductions of 68 and 

8 80 percent, respectively, relative to the fossil 

9 incumbent, and every barrel of algae biofill 

10 produced through carbon capture replaces a barrel 

11 of petroleum that would otherwise be extracted 

12 and combusted.

13 And through this substitution Co2 remains 

14 permanently stored in the ground as petroleum. 

15 So we understand that the proposed rule 

16 does not mandate any single method for meeting 

17 the Co2 reduction targets, but it does include a 

18 discussion of CCS as a method that states can use 

19 to meet its target, and the preamble specifically 

20 asks for public comment on CCS, but makes no 

21 mention of utilization. 

22 So we're concerned and believe that EPA 

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1 is missing an important opportunity by failing to 

2 explicitly recognize or solicit comments on Co2 

3 utilization as a method that the states can use 

4 to meet their targets.

5 We encourage the EPA to include language 

6 in the final rule indicating that carbon 

7 utilization would be an acceptable component in 

8 the state emissions reduction plans. We think 

9 such an affirmative recognition would provide 

10 states and sources of private capital with the 

11 confidence to invest in this highly promising Co2 

12 solution while helping to create a market for Co2 

13 that reduces the cost of compliance.

14 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Matt. We 

15 welcome comment, including technical comment on 

16 accounting for that.

17 MR. CARR: Great. Will do. Thank you. 

18 MR. NIEBLING: With that, at the moment 

19 we do not have any speakers lined up to speak so 

20 the panel will take a temporary recess until such 

21 time as somebody would like to share their 

22 thoughts with us. 

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1 (Recess from 7:23 p.m. to 7:59 p.m.)

2 MR. NIEBLING: It is now 8:00, and we 

3 have exhausted our list of speakers for the 

4 evening. So, we will reconvene at 9:00 a.m. 

5 tomorrow in the same place with a long list of 

6 speakers. Thank you all for your attendance 

7 today and your testimony, it's valuable to us in 

8 the development of the rule. 

9 With that, this session is closed. 

10 (Hearing concluded at 7:59 p.m.)

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