2 Octover 2016 MILITARY REVIEW EXCLUSIVE ONLINE

“Dance With the One 

Who Brung Ya” 

Using Informational Interviews 

to Enable Career Transition

Col. John Buckley, U.S. Army, Retired 

When I was a college athlete studying to be 

a coach, a professor gave me some advice 

for developing game-day strategies. He 

told me a story about legendary Texas football coach 

Darrell Royal. When asked about his strategy for 

college football games, Coach Royal frequently said, 

“You dance with the one who brung ya.” He meant he 

would use players and plays that had been successful in 

previous wins. 

U.S. Army Reserve 1st Sgt. Tomeka Johnson, senior enlisted for Headquarters and Headquarters Company of 200th Military Police 

Command, dances during the tie-breaking dance off after the Army Warrior Tasks training at Laudrick Creek Military Reservation, MD, 

10 September 2016. The training, held during September’s Battle Assembly, consisted of stations covering chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear attack; 9-Line Medical Evacuation; search of a suspect; individual movement techniques, and others. (U.S. Army Reserve 

photo by Staff Sgt. Shejal Pulivarti, U.S. Army)
MILITARY REVIEW EXCLUSIVE ONLINE October 2016 3

Career Transition

Similarly, my Army supervisors and career mentors 

advised me to rely on my Army culture and training 

when confronting professional as well as personal 

issues. They meant I should use those skills that have 

been successful for me in the past. And, while mentoring a young major during my final deployment to Iraq, 

I provided similar advice on how he should manage his 

professional and personal matters. I said, “dance with 

the one who brung ya.” While replaying my counseling session with this major, I realized I should listen 

to my own advice as I confronted my retirement and 

prepared to transition into the private sector. I should 

rely on my years of successful operational-planning 

experience to apply structure to this problem and 

reduce uncertainty, retain personal flexibility, envision 

a desired future, and outline effective ways to bring that 

future about. 

I knew I had to establish an approach to my 

private sector transition that would keep me moving in the right direction, but I did not know where 

to begin. So, I just started making lists, organizing 

thoughts, and outlining steps to help me define this 

complex and unfamiliar environment. I composed a 

vision: successfully transition into the private sector. I 

identified my skills that had potential use in the private sector, framed my employability, scratched out 

an initial approach towards achieving my vision, and 

got to work turning my vision into reality. 

In the end, integrating informational interviewing

with my operational planning enabled me to successfully transition into the private sector. Interestingly 

enough, I accidently discovered this career exploration 

tool that all transitioning service members should be 

familiar with. Like me, they should learn how to apply 

informational interviewing to enhance their transition. 

Therefore, I present this missive as an example of how 

to leverage informational interviews to benefit other 

soldiers during their transition planning.

Define the Operating Environment

I followed my own advice to the major, and I decided to apply operational planning to my “mission” of 

transitioning into the private sector. My first step was 

to define the operating environment. I started studying the various components of my transition. I spoke 

with representatives from the installation Adjutant 

General’s Office, Retirement Branch, and the Housing 

Office, as well as the ethics advisor, and I attended the 

Transition Assistance Program to learn more about 

finding suitable employment after the Army. I identified a local realtor. I spoke to my financial advisor 

to see how I could best protect my family and myself 

during this transition. I even started reading magazines 

about where to retire. My efforts to characterize my 

operating environment helped to reduce some of my 

uncertainty. However, I had an information gap when 

it came to identifying possible employment. I knew I 

needed to start filling it in quickly, so I began searching 

job announcements to discover what jobs I could do. 

I sifted through LinkedIn and USAJOBS, and I used 

TheLadders and various other tools to also aid in my 

search.1 I discovered many listings that required specific skills I possessed. I found job openings in locations I 

was interested in settling, and I found openings in bigname firms and in small, unknown companies, as well 

as in government contracting businesses located right 

outside the front gate of my fort. However, although 

I gained extensive evidence of existing opportunities, 

my research was not entirely fulfilling. My unfocused 

research into possible jobs I could do bore an overabundance of information, but certainly not actionable 

intelligence. My efforts up to that point seemed futile. 

My information gap increased as did my frustration, 

which almost caused me to violate my first rule as an 

operational planner: remain unemotional. 

I decided I needed 

to talk to old friends 

and colleagues who had 

successfully transitioned into the private 

sector to see how they 

did it. I thought that if 

they could transition 

successfully, then I 

certainly could. Maybe 

they could help me narrow my focus and guide 

me to discover what 

skills I should leverage, 

or perhaps they could 

suggest where I might 

pursue jobs. 

I started 

contacting old 

Col. John Buckley, U.S. 

Army, Retired is the 

military relations manager for Koch Industries, 

Inc., in Witchita, Kansas. 

He has an MMAS from 

the School of Advanced 

Military Studies, Fort 

Leavenworth, Kansas, and 

an MS in strategic studies 

from the U.S. Army War 

College, Carlisle Barracks, 

Pennsylvania. He formerly 

served as the director of 

the U.S. Army Command 

and Staff College on Fort 

Leavenworth.
MILITARY REVIEW EXCLUSIVE ONLINE October 2016 4

Career Transition

infantrymen—former colleagues, bosses, and subordinates—and informed them of my pending transition. 

I solicited their support, and each one enthusiastically offered their assistance. They shared résumés and 

provided lessons learned from their own transitions. 

Some advised me that networking, rather than résumé writing, would help me find a job. I heard about 

compensation packages; the terrific travel benefits they 

were enjoying; the benefits and pitfalls of working as a 

government contractor; the secrets to using USAJOBS; 

how to leverage TRICARE (the health care program 

of the U.S. Department of Defense) in salary negotiations; the trials and tribulations of private consulting; 

and the importance of business cards, note cards, and 

professional correspondence. Yet, even after this period 

of research, I still felt unprepared for my transition, 

because I was still unsure of which job to pursue.

Writing a Résumé

I decided it was time to begin writing a résumé 

of my own, but I struggled a bit with summarizing my 

career. I examined example résumés from my former 

colleagues. I rummaged through my old efficiency 

reports and awards citations, and I cut and pasted 

several accomplishments straight into my résumé. My 

first draft was more than four pages long. However, 

thanks to one former colleague, Karen, a president of 

a corporation based in Washington, D.C., I got terrific 

advice on arranging my thoughts. Her guidance helped 

me reduce the length of my résumé.

She told me I had to write for my audience. Karen 

advised me to remove the military jargon and use 

language a business leader or recruiter with no military 

experience would understand. She also said I should 

identify personal core competencies and align them 

with specific professional competencies. I am an infantryman—a classic “jack of all trades, master of none.” 

I came up with fifteen competencies. “Narrow them 

down to four and get back with me tomorrow,” she 

snapped as she hung up the phone. 

I reworded my skills, categorized them, and reduced 

my list of competencies. I sent my revised résumé to 

Karen the next morning and received her approval. She 

explained that my résumé was not done, though. It was 

only a draft, or as she called it, a “baseline.” She counseled me to write a brand new résumé for each position to which I was applying. She said, “Your résumé 

must reflect the position you are pursuing. You have 

to highlight the knowledge and all skills, experiences, 

and abilities required for that one specific job you are 

pursuing. You should address only those listed in the job 

description—nothing more!” In other words, she told 

me to associate my skills precisely with those listed in 

the job description. 

Despite the positive feedback from my former colleague, her last bit of advice left me feeling uncertain. It 

also seemed like an awful lot of work.

Networking 

I had a clear picture of my environment, and a 

decent résumé properly framing my employability. I 

assumed all I needed to do at this point was find an interesting job announcement listing requirements I met 

and include the appropriate skills in my résumé. 

The next day, I called another former colleague of 

mine, Wayne, a public affairs director in Texas. I asked 

him how he aligned his personal interests and competencies with his new job. He said he didn’t have to. 

Wayne said he started talking to a friend of his after 

church one Sunday who also happened to be a business 

leader in his community. By chance, this discussion led 

Wayne to a very enjoyable new career. Wayne said he 

started asking this gentleman some questions regarding his career choice: “What education, experience, 

and credentials were necessary? Which career-related 

organizations and agencies are the best with which to 

network in the community?” Then, they started comparing their careers, education, and credentials, and 

they found a few similarities. One thing led to another, 

and Wayne got some advice and a phone number. The 

rest was history. 

Later, Greg, a private consultant in San Antonio and 

one of my transition mentors, called me and revealed 

a similar story. He was at a party sponsored by his 

wife’s employer, when he began talking to a consultant. 

Greg picked this gentleman’s brain about his career 

field. “How did you build your credentials as a trusted 

advisor? How did you retain your security clearance? 

How do you determine what to charge a client for 

your services?” Greg listened intently, and soon started 

establishing his own credentials and building his own 

clientele. He is now a successful private consultant.

Another friend, Mike, a defense analyst based in 

Florida, came to Kansas City for the day and I met him 
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Career Transition

for lunch. He revealed a similar story on how he chose 

a second career. He did it by talking to people. The key 

for him was talking to business leaders in fields that 

interested him. He emphasized that these professionals were not former military leaders. He discovered 

professionals who spent their entire careers working in 

their fields of interest in the private sector. He followed 

numerous leads to successful professionals, just to learn 

more about specific career fields and companies. 

 Maybe it was divine intervention, as in Wayne’s 

case. Maybe it was pure luck like it was for Greg. Or, 

was there something to this informal approach as 

suggested by Mike? There were some common threads 

in all three. The first was direct engagement with 

others. I was certain my Irish luck would not help me, 

but I figured the “gift of gab” just might—so I decided 

I would try to talk to people. The second thread was 

their focus on a career rather than just a job. A job is an 

activity, but a career is a lifelong ambition. I definitely 

preferred to set myself up in a new career. I returned 

to my LinkedIn contacts to find someone whose career 

interested me. I started with Matt, a senior manager in 

executive communications. 

I had not prepared myself for my conversation with 

him, but I spent thirty minutes asking about his career, 

his workplace, and how he developed his management 

skills. My questions were too unspecific, though, so I 

did not get many useful answers. Thank goodness Matt 

was a friend. I think that is why he was kind enough 

not to tell me I was wasting his time.

Next, I spoke with Ronnie to check on his beloved 

Texas A&M Aggies, and later we spent the afternoon 

grilling hamburgers with Steve. Because they were both 

friends of mine, I again did not prepare my questions 

with any intention, nor with any investigative purpose 

relative to their jobs or careers. The conversations were 

beneficial, however, because I learned about the environments in which they worked. I also increased my 

private sector and business lexicon, and discovered the 

importance of specific competencies in their respective 

fields. 

I felt I was gaining momentum in my transition 

strategy when I reached out to another former colleague, Bob. He had retired as a colonel many years ago 

and had since gained vast professional experience in 

multiple sectors. We met for coffee, and he informed 

me of a new nonprofit organization he and his partner 

were creating. The purpose of this nonprofit was to 

assist military veterans with their transition into the 

private sector. Bob asked me to schedule a meeting the 

following week with him and his partner, Rolly, to talk 

in detail about my transition and their organization.

Refining the Approach

Relying on my Army training experiences, I decided 

to do a quick after-action review (AAR) of my transition preparation performance before I met with Bob 

and Rolly. A good analysis of my transition planning 

would determine my strengths and weaknesses, and 

where I could use Bob and Rolly’s help. I therefore 

identified some areas to improve upon and to adjust, 

relative to my transition approach. These ideas were 

fresh in my mind when I met Bob and Rolly: 

• When considering my transition problem, I had 

incorrectly defined it. The question I started with, 

“What job could I do?” was wrong. A job is merely a 

tactical objective. My end state could not be about 

getting a job. Instead, it had to be strategic in nature, 

and be about succeeding in a new career. The question 

should have been, “What career will I pursue?” 

• I also realized that my vision was focused only on 

short-term goals. In other words, it too was oriented on 

tactics. I needed to revise my vision to be strategic in 

nature and more accurately reflect my desire to achieve 

lifelong goals. I had to shape a new career. This idea was 

reinforced in a Syracuse University study noting that 

half of transitioning military veterans left their first job 

in their first year—and nearly 75 percent within their 

first eighteen months.2 It was because military veterans 

were jumping into the first job that came along, and 

it was a shortsighted approach. My vision should not 

have been about successfully transitioning. Instead, 

my vision should have been succeeding in a private sector 

career that I will enjoy. 

• I needed to identify career fields that would satisfy my passion and interests, and allow me to showcase 

my skills, knowledge, abilities, and attributes. They 

had to be fields in which I would enjoy the associated 

endeavors. I had to understand their requirements, 

work environments, challenges, lifestyles, advancement 

opportunities, required certifications, and possible 

pitfalls. To properly do this, I had to fill my information 

gaps with knowledge I did not have at that time. I had 

to collect it from others. 
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Career Transition

• From this epiphany, I realized my LinkedIn 

network had become nothing more than a second 

Facebook page. My network consisted only of former 

military personnel. I needed to expand my connections 

to include civilian professionals. It was essential that 

I find people who worked their entire lives in career 

fields I wanted to pursue. As I learned from Mike, I 

needed to ask them questions to help me learn the 

things I needed to know.

• I needed to better prepare for my “interrogations,” 

and focus my questions to collect relevant information 

on specific career fields. Gaining knowledge of the career fields would help me logically analyze the information and produce actionable intelligence toward finding 

employment within my chosen career field. 

• Before these “interrogations,” I needed to learn 

about the people I was meeting, and about their businesses or corporations. I had to be considerate enough 

to know something about their backgrounds, their 

accomplishments, and their business cultures. I also 

had to take into account that they too would have an 

objective for participating in our discussion.

• Finally, I realized I had missed a step in this 

operational-planning effort. I had not developed any 

courses of action to consider. Shifting to a strategic 

vision would allow me to develop career options, or 

courses of action. Thinking through the feasibility, 

acceptability, and suitability of these courses of action 

would also allow me to identify branches and sequels 

to my transition. My military career taught me that 

branches and sequels were critical components of an 

operational plan. The planning does not stop at the first 

objective. You have to be postured to exploit success or 

confront any potential challenge to your progress. My 

transition planning was no different. I had to envision 

how to advance in a career in order to be successful. 

Now, I was prepared for my meeting.

Informational Interviews

During my meeting with Bob and Rolly, their 

guidance and counsel reinforced everything I had just 

concluded in my own personal AAR. Furthermore, 

they put a name to what I was doing. Bob informed 

me that these “interrogation” sessions I was conducting 

were called informational interviews. During these meetings, a job seeker looks for advice on his or her potential 

career, learns about the industry, and gains knowledge 

about the corporate culture of a potential future workplace. At the same time, the employed professionals 

learn about the job seeker, judge his or her professional 

potential, determine how well he or she will fit in the 

corporate culture, and build their candidate pool for 

future hires.3

What I needed to do in my “dance with the one who 

brung ya,” was to develop a collection plan to support 

my transition planning. To fully integrate informational interviewing into my operational-planning effort, I 

needed to determine what critical information I was 

missing. Doing this would allow me to focus my informational interviews with professionals, continually feed 

useful information into my planning effort, and allow 

me to make timely decisions along the way to a successful new career. 

My new leading question, or my newly defined 

problem, helped me settle on four courses of action—

career fields—that appeared best aligned with my 

passion, interests, skills, knowledge, abilities, and attributes. Specifying those career fields enabled me to narrow the focus of my efforts to a much more manageable 

level. I was then able to purposefully search for the right

professionals—those who had vast experience in one of 

my four chosen career fields. I began to research these 

career fields as I prepared for meaningful informational 

interviews with these professionals. 

My first interview came quickly and unexpectedly. 

After viewing Ted’s profile on LinkedIn, I received a 

rather curt note from him asking me why I viewed his 

profile. I told him I was preparing to transition into 

a new career. I was intrigued by his profile and noted 

some unique similarities with my own. I said I was 

interested in pursuing a business consulting career such 

as his, and wondered if he might be willing to offer 

some advice. His answer surprised me, and his interview has been my most meaningful to date. We met for 

breakfast and had a wonderful conversation about his 

career and his career choices, as well as some challenges 

he faced. His insights were particularly beneficial. Ted 

provided recommendations on education, certifications, and specialized training that would best prepare 

me for his field. He suggested projects I could complete 

that might also be helpful, professional organizations 

to expand my network in this field, and other people 

with whom I should engage. Thankfully, he took the 

time to review my résumé and provided candid, brutal, 
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Career Transition

and disheartening, but fantastic recommendations. 

My greatest takeaway from this engagement was that I 

needed to be more humble in my approach and incorporate that in the tone of my résumé. 

Another of my career interests is executive communication, so I arranged to interview a new contact, 

Michael, who was a successful senior communication 

consultant for a major corporation in Kansas City. He 

was fascinated that a “war hero” would want to ask his 

opinion on anything. We met for lunch, and he continued to gush in wonderment as to why a distinguished 

military man would seek his advice. Once the excitement passed, I was able to ask some probing questions, 

to which Michael provided tremendous answers. He 

mentioned that he knew very few military personnel. 

One former military contact he had was the dean of 

academics at a nearby university. I then mentioned 

that, ironically, another of my professional interests 

was education. Michael got his friend on the phone and 

arranged for me to meet the university president, the 

dean of academics, and the athletic director. 

Interviewing the three officials in their offices 

created a different scenario for me. I needed to ensure 

they realized right away that I was there for firsthand 

information and frank advice about their respective 

career fields—I was not looking for a job. I prepared 

for each interview uniquely, and each interview turned 

out to be different in tone and content. The president 

gave me valuable and candid advice, the dean immediately began creating job opportunities for me, and the 

athletic director unintentionally discouraged me from 

entering my fourth and final career interest of collegiate athletics. 

The interview at the university led me to Ed, an 

education professional with broad experience in 

secondary education. He drove one hour to meet with 

me and explain his career field. He described a typical 

work week for various education careers, and explained 

the greatest rewards and frustrations associated with 

his career. He was also able to articulate for me what 

skills and personal qualities were most important in 

secondary education. Of greatest value was his help in 

translating many of my military experiences into competencies required for an education professional. 

About four months from my retirement, my former 

colleague, Bob, informed me of an interesting opportunity that fit all four of my career field interests. He 

arranged for an informational interview with Jeff, a 

talent director for the company. I thoroughly prepared myself for this meeting, as I had learned to do 

in multiple operational-planning efforts. I conducted 

a “war game,” or a simulation of my anticipated interaction with Jeff, so I could visualize the flow of our 

interaction. 

I prepared for probing questions by reading a 

few relevant books. I studied the company through 

both positive and negative lenses, and researched Jeff 

through his LinkedIn profile in order to better understand what was professionally important to the 

business and to him. I also researched jobs with similar 

requirements to ascertain performance standards and 

potential salary ranges. Then, I rehearsed asking the 

probing questions I thought were important to have 

answered; they would also demonstrate my knowledge 

of the subject and the company, as well as my interest in the employment opportunity. Additionally, I 

thought about and prepared answers for the questions 

Jeff might ask me, as well as subsequent questions so 

I could obtain even deeper information on the subject. Finally, I prepared the follow-up plan so I could 

think through the next steps that I would have to take, 

including submitting an application, adjusting my 

résumé, and writing thank you notes.

Conclusion 

Eventually, Jeff hired me. After more than thirty years in the military, I started a new career in the 

private sector, but my accomplishment did not come 

effortlessly. By adhering to my own advice to “dance 

with the one who brung ya,” I reduced my uncertainty, 

retained my personal flexibility, and mitigated the risk 

to my family and me. Important to this conclusion was 

my ability to properly structure my problem and narrow my focus to career fields that excited me and best 

leveraged my skills, knowledge, and abilities. Integrating 

informational interviews into my operational-planning 

techniques ultimately created an opportunity that led 

directly to my second career. 

After refining my vision to focus strategically on a 

career instead of a job and adjusting my network, I concentrated my effort on conducting meaningful informational interviews that resulted in creating actionable 

intelligence. Along the way, I interviewed consultants, 

project managers at major corporations, regional 
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Career Transition

account executives, recruiters, trainers, and chief executive officers from local firms, and I researched the 

founding principles of those firms. I met most of these 

individuals through a network I built starting with my 

friends, colleagues, former bosses, and subordinates. 

These professionals unwittingly taught me the terms 

and phrases necessary for my résumé. I realized the 

résumé would not get me the job, but a focused and 

precise résumé was essential to getting an invitation to 

an interview. So, I spent hours replacing practically every single military word and phrase in my résumé with 

professional terms that a recruiter and hiring manager 

would understand. Additionally, these professionals 

enhanced my interview performances because I was 

able to articulate matters in a manner relative to the 

career I was pursuing, and to the specific industry and 

corporation. 

Hopefully, the lessons I share in this paper will help 

others successfully transition from the military into a 

private-sector career. I pursued my vision by applying 

the operational-planning process and tools I had used 

my entire military career. Combined, they helped me 

solve the immediate problem—making a transition into 

a new career—and establish the framework for potential sequels (achieving success in my new career). 

By combining my operational-planning expertise 

with well-planned informational interviews, I was able 

to gain critical insight into my career interests in the 

private sector. I was able to improve my understanding 

of the communities and work environments comprising 

these potential careers, and to identify careers to avoid. 

The informational interviews led me to new relationships, enabling me to expand my network and create a 

willing and able cast of career mentors who ultimately 

steered me to the opportunity of a lifetime.

1. LinkedIn is an online professional networking 

site, accessed 11 October 2016, https://www.linkendin.

com; USAJOBS is an official U.S. government website 

that lists available federal jobs, accessed 11 October 

2016, http://www.usajobs.gov; TheLadders is an online 

job search service, accessed 11 October 2016, http://

www.theladders.com.

Notes

1. LinkedIn is an online professional networking site, accessed 

11 October 2016, https://www.linkendin.com; USAJOBS is an 

official U.S. government website that lists available federal jobs, 

accessed 11 October 2016, http://www.usajobs.gov; TheLadders 

is an online job search service, accessed 11 October 2016, http://

www.theladders.com.

2. Rosalind Maury, Brice Stone, and Jennifer Roseman, Veteran 

Job Retention Survey Summary (Syracuse University, NY: Institute for Veterans and Military Families, 2014), 5-7, accessed 11 

October 2016, http://vets.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/

VetAdvisor%20Report%28FINAL%20Single%20pages%29.pdf.

3. “Informational Interview,” Wikipedia, last modified 13 September 2015, accessed 11 October 2016, http://en.wikipedia.org/

wiki/Informational_interview.