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HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON INTER

AND FOREIGN COMM

OF THE

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATI

ON

PANAMA CANA

HOTEL TIVOLI, ANCON, CANA

JANUARY 6 AND 7 1909

GOVERNMENT WASHINGTON: 1909 PRINTING OFFICE.
sI
PANAMA CANAL

HEARING BEFORE THE ()MM[TT'F:IE ON INTERST

COMMERCE OF TE HOUSE OF REPRES

HOTEL TxvoI, ANCON, C

Wednesday, 

The committee met at 8 o'clock a. in.

Present: Messrs. Hepburn (chairman), Steven

Cushman, Hubbard, Knowland, Richardson, and 

Also present, Col. George W. Goethals, U. S. 

Hodges, U. S. Army; Maj. D. D. Gaillard, U. S. A

L. Sibert, U. S. Army; Mr. H. H. Rousseau, civil e

members of the Isthrnian Canal Commission; M

Bishop, secretary of the Istlimian Canal Comm

Devol, U. S. Army; Maj. E. 1'. Wilson, U. S. A

Harding, U. S. Army; and others.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose it is well understood 

canal has been fixed by statute, and we are not h

of discussion or participating in a discussion o

Those must be first matters of law. We are here si

information whether or not the methods decided u

erly applied, and whether or not they will be proba

I think it would be wise in this investigation if s

work? Atlantic of investigation. of would gets or, agreed Majorr. Majorr. Mwork? (After the if STATEMENT through, they STEvENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. investigation conduct to, HARDING. Division. HARDING. informal and seeother Mr. proper, 

it, Whatat Of Stevens OF in discussion, Chester Of what gentlemen relating part MAJ. hand the has is work yurGatun ws at been a CHESTER to Harding, least, note canhosen te locks name are your locks you ask suggestion to without and previous and as the and such HARDING, in assistant the dams.) official particul

gentlemdam. questone interexpof to 
4 PANAMA CANAL.

Major HARDING. The most of the experience 

that I have had was in the District of Columbia

to the Engineer Commissioner, in charge, amo

division of building and construction through

principally, in addition to that, the special c

appointment, of the construction of the new D

District of Columbia.

Mr. STEVENS. How long were you in charge 

that building?

Major HARDING. Four and one-third years.

Mr. STEVENS. When were you relieved, and 

down here?

Major HARDING. I was relieved the latter p

reported for duty to the chairman of the com

August, 1907.

Mr. STEVENS. Then you have been here ne

years in charge of that part of the work?

Major HARDING. The first part of my work 

the locks only. The latter part of June, 1908, 

the dam, in addition to the charge of the locks

Mr. STEVENS. So that you have given parti

particular work, and submitted one report r

published as a part of the Official Report of the 

mission for the year 1908, beginning on page 1

Major HARDING. I have not seen a copy o

but I did submit a report to the chairman, 

published therein.

(The chairman here announced that he had 

by Hamilton Foley, reading "May I attend th

spondent for the New York Herald?" The 

that he did not think he should take the respo

deciding the matter, whereupon the committe

session. It was decided that the hearing sh

and thereupon it was continued as such.)

Mr. STEVENS. This report to which I have 

known as 'Appendix D" of the Report of the 

contains a drawing of profiles under walls sho

lying you lock,anguage, locks, rest sandstone. highard, containing Majorr. Majorr. Majorr.re upon temperatures; lock or compact, STEVENS. going STEVENS. STEVENS. responsible HARDING. duplicate HARDING. HARDING. a and foundations. fossils, rock t the as and Will JustWhat wich concisely locks, Yes, foundations for Theat which it durable, state you ist?walls has Sir. Was argillaceous its and notevidently please what been action as except of state metamorphic; that of possible, the that clssed inform the under prepared the when lower sandstonhas is higher foundright geolowatebegithe nevexplocui
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major HARDING. It experiences no change und

Mr. STEVENS. Is it water bearing?

Major HARDING. In itself-in the body of t

there is no water. There are fissures occurri

through which small quantities of water percola

Mr. STEVENS. There is a statement in some of 

cisms concerning the lock foundations that wha

ceous sandstone" is a clay material, slippery and 

is the fact?

Major HARDING. The fact is that- it is a rock

exposed to the atmosphere, that will sustain fi

pressures that will come upon it. Indeed, th

capacity of the argillaceous sandstone has never 

me from experiments, for the reason that it w

times strong enough to bear the load to come up

think of testing it for its bearing capacity any 

think of testing granite or other stone of that cha

such as is usually put upon it.

Mr. STEVENs. Then the foundations of this low

this argillaceous sandstone?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. To what depth?

Major HARDING. As I recall it, in the neigh

below zero in the side walls.

Mr. STEVENS. That is below sea level?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. What is its action under pressu

that will be placed upon it?

Major HARDING. There will be no effect upon 

Mr. STEVENS. Has that been tested?

Major HARDING. Yes; but not by me.

Mr. STEVENS. Are the records in the office of t

Major HARDING. I presume so.

Mr. STEVENS. And included in previous repor

Major HARDING. I think probably in the re

published last year.

length. middlelock. the sideration stone, it sandstone was Majorr. Majorr. Major Mr. Majorr. middle foundations paid obvious STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. lock, HARDING. HARDING. HARDING. [He HARDING. by extend much flight? except refers you? to of What Have Now, my attention for the forThe Yes, I It to mind the have about how lower is those diagram.] material sir. the purpose the of that to no, far the lock? 150 foundation material reports the the above in feet same there fact you reference It material under and the ishat have there? material is for of a locks tests it the conglothe was indicatheoas eath

be

donafeb
6 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. STEVENS. Of what?

Major HARDING. It is of pebbles and some 

m

which is in a hard, compact condition. The g

the conglomerate is similar to that of concrete m

Mr. STEVENS. What will be its action unde

t

p

t

weight of the locks to be placed upon it?

Major HARDING. There will be no effect.

Mr. STEVENS. Is it water bearing?

Major HARDING. There was indication in som

tb

m

of a slight amount of water when we struck the 

Mr. STEVENS. Is it soluble in water?

Major hARDING. No; I have seen no evidenc

i

Mr. STEVENS. How is it when exposed to the 

Major HARDING. In my opinion, it is more d

to atmosphere than is argillaceous sandstone.

Mr. STEVENS. So you consider it a sufficient b

f

t

tion for the locks?

Major HARDING. I consider it the best founda

m

wh

in the locks.

Mr. STEVENS. Is there any other material th

stone and this conglomerate in the foundation o

tm

locks?

Major HARDING. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the material in the fou

t

u

flight of locks?

Major HARDING. That is in part argillaceous 

p

glomerate, and part soft sandstone.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you ascertained the pro

t

p

of those materials-that is, what proportion is a

what proportion conglomerate, and what propo

Major HARDING. I can estimate the proport

b

r

t

this drawing. [Examines drawing.]

Mt. STEVENS. Please give us an estimate as 

y

Major HARDING. The east wall will rest for 

i

length on argillaceous sandstone. For slightly m

t

of its length on conglomerate, and for the rema

t

upon soft sandstone. end-of bearing point, from inch of classes air, thewasre Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr. the and tstexcluded. was its was STEVENS. STEVENS. which STEVENs. locks. of capacity the appearance, pressure, HARDING. was HARDING. made soft no upper is exposed settlement sandstone, The yellow on Under What What than such the lock It soft An the in blue to isort is theas would the actual sandstone yellow not clor; the of blue thee in soft soft of testhe uniform this atmosphere, better acion be material in test sandstone, sandstone so material. sandstone load color, lck the that under load and of load material of foundatio

is and blue 500 the distincthat of being the and of whicthat is popo50thsaolotsftlpntbtituptptpil
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major HARDING. The maximum pressure occurr

p

i

under the most adverse conditions of loading, whic

w

be of a temporary character, is 250 pounds per sq

i

Mr. STEVENS. So there is a large limit of safe

T

m

has been tested to twice the maximum load that 

b

t

placed upon it without any settlement at all?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. Please continue your explanatio

t

of this material when exposed to air and water.

Major HARDING. The material when exposed t

tegration and deterioration. Also, when a block 

t

m

i

forced from its position by means of a pick it beco

soft, so that you may take part of it and crumble i

ub

y

fingers. As it occurs in situ, before yu have 

i

difficult to remove with a pick. The material h

b

t

water for unknown centuries. It is found in its n

wet, so that the effect of water may be inferred

i

t

is nothing at all. The effect of atmospheric influ

u

i

I have stated.

Mr. STEVENS. In the New York Herald of Mon

D

appears this statement [reads]:

'In many instances the Major calls the argillaceous san

b

which, in the vocabulary of geologists, means that it is clay o

tm

t

and slippery disposition. No geologist would call blue cla

f

u

which to erect a house of any size, let alone a structure of su

w

t

dam will be when completed.

That is the substance which you have just 

b

sandstone?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir; argillaceous sandston

b

sandstone.

Mr. STEVENS. How deep is that sandstone i

t

u

l

foundation?

Major HARDING. One of the holes I drilled th

w

feet below sea level. This material was found thr

t

l

of that hole, below the stratum of soft sandstone

Mr. STEVENS. So that, with your experience 

t

y

sider it a safe foundation for the pressure and lo

t

w

bp

you us? in upon andsh. material stone to line sandstone Majorr. Majorr. Mpart draw is will a it?with It STEVENS. constructing STEVENS. STEVENS. argillaceous by a place is HARDING. HARDING. HARDING. changes line tufa a yellow, deposit the and upon mixed. And What gradually lock say with I engineer Yes, The light it?of do. yu fndation? above vlcanic is do tufa yellow The sir. the material would you from thishat change mixed. yellow propose material tufa, soft stake linet which iss sandstone material is a your so a mixture soft to safe seems gradual is do reputaof sandsfounof volintwito owftlyihbfvTtibty
8 PANAMA CANAL.

Major HARDING. I propose to test all parts 

j

ment, at all doubtful to at least twice the load 

them. If the material thus tested settles apprep

that that material should undoubtedly be remr

continued until material sufficiently strong to 

any question is reached. The extent of this mb

and horizontal, is a matter of judgment pure an

tion of whether it should be removed locallypb

taken out, or a general removal of everything, i

the bad, down to a certain level, is also a ques

j

Mr. STEVENS. When you remove the tufa 

what will you put in its place?

Major HARDING. Concrete.

Mr. STEVENS. Just as a dentist plugs a tooth

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. So you propose to go to that 

dation which you are sure will prove safe for b

placed upon it?

Major HARDING. I do.

Mr. STEVENS. What number and character b

in this rock before so much excavation had be

Major HARDING. The borings were very num

bered consecutively up to eight or nine hun

borings, made before the arrival of any of the p

Isthmus, were made for the purpose of locat

r

rapidly made-there was demand for results-an

the investigation stopped when the borings reacp

of the wall foundations. In order to suppleme

b

was a series of borings made, all of which are p

r

and those borings were extended down, as a g

r

feet below the level of the foundation of the loc

b

to show that the material underneath formed 

for the locks.

Mr. STEVENS. When these borings were made

paper and lines drawn indicating the charac

material to be found in the borings?

Major Mr. HARDING. Yes, sir. as excavation accompanies, and with developed was material test observations the classing calculations, ertain Majorr. to lock some pit the the the STEVENS. STEVENS. trend was HARDING.' this succession single whatever. site question kind in isdug material weas made? the and youof exception and that mde An Now, dn based borings, the assume whether Yes, of quantity In material, from as strata merial ats in altogether sir. oder that soft the a that gave those a or result was The sandstone. this certain bottom to not of would material no so remove platted borings report material material upon of the encountered indications these be ofcharacte

sand the of in found that have accorany July boricallthehaindcobpbbppj
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. In what proportion have you foun

misleading and wrong?

Major HARDING. In not a single case.

Mr. STEVENS. Do I understand, then, not a si

found in the borings for those locks, calculate

hundreds of borings, in which your calculations fo

tions have been wrong?

Major HARDING. Not a case at all in which there 

in classification. Almost to the inch, we might 

countered conglomerate where these profiles 

glomerate, and we have encountered soft sandstone 

indicated soft sandstone. The character of the 

stone was not predicted in the report. It was 

soft sandstone was practically uniform, and the f

sandstone was not as hard as the blue was not 

Mr. STEVENS. The blue sandstone you rega

strong, and any statements of anybody that it 

unsafe is not warranted by the fact?

Major HARDING. In my judgment, that is the c

Mr. STEVENS. Now, please tell us what is the 

found for the forebay?

Major HARDING. The forebay extends a distanc

above the lift wall of the upper lock. At that p

an emergency dam, which requires a massive ma

to resist the pressures that will come upon it. Th

bay contain no lateral culverts for filling the foreb

in the locks themselves, consequently there is n

particular definite depth of the walls of the for

they should be down in suitable material. Acco

ings the walls of the forebay were placed in sof

east wall, in argillaceous sandstone mixed with 

wall, and in conglomerate in the west wall.

Mr. STEVENS. Now, what do you do to get a pro

that forebay?

Major HARDING. The only thing to do, in my o

get a proper foundation is to remove from beneat

tion, You entirely strength? from that out, rial than bearing removed to mum a Mr.r.ajor sufficient a which foundation itwill will build the that no load STEVENS. STEVENS. safe. capacity HARDING. matter lower be toload thatis rest a the amount be house to end upon is determined without that uniform bear And Then what to ofof upon Yes, will come the of the a you the thehat lod doubtful sir; any course well-known bear, earth, maerial lower upon go structure, by should will no injurious to without actual lock of or it. matter be the material, your is clay, be tohengineering not exent of test known settlement. any the procedure? what or merial basis exceeded loads, upperquestiorock, the of ultimto of exprpsea
10 PANAMA CANAL.

2Major HARDING. Yes; a bearing capacity o

placed upon it. In the case of the blue sandsto

we did not go on and add weight, because it inv

large quantity of material and is unnecessary.

Mr. STEVENS. Supposing it does not bear u

the load, what do you do ?

Major HARDING. We find the actual settlem

we begin to load it-we see how much settlem

300 pounds, 350 pounds, and so on.

Mr. STEVENS. Will you use material that wi

double the load?

Major HARDING. I would not like to do it.

Mr. STEVENS. So far as you can see, will you 

Major HARDING. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. So your purpose is to require 

capacity of the load that will actually be plac

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. I noticed on these plans, and 

the other day, preparation for a curtain wall. 

Major HARDING. The curtain wall has for i

of water from beneath the lock foundation and 

of water under a head-under a pressure-be

of the floors of the locks and the walls tends t

pressure, and to blow up the floor-I do not m

explosion, but to raise it from beneath, if long 

of the softest of our materials, the curtain wall 

the prevention of any erosion due to currents o

under the foundation.

Mr. STEVENS. So you think this curtain wa

protect the lock foundations from the erosion 

Major. HARDING. I think so.

Mr. STEVENS. Is it necessary to do so?

Major HARDING. If it were a hundred thou

j

where in the States, I do not believe one engin

in; but as this is a work of such cost and magn

proper insurance to take.

Mr. 

Major 

STEVENS. That is in the nature of insur

claimed not through engineering Sunday, The could dam, to continuation acter being sepage rAfterIt imprison Majorr. essence is think as are such be discouraging STEVENS. to made so from has reading HARDING. utterly any HARDING. that December its pervious of there of the in waters given to the no ofthe hold connection opinion prevent considerable to dam. is the I that, tht surrounding intoote information water, any read I Yes, 27, natural it is ahink These any that what will lake. danger that, the from from impounding sir; they body with be elevations surrounding while it statement The hills impossible I hills an all of iswhatsoever an to any think fault the water agreean article which the anonymous on dam are of portion is absurd hills, that could the Post tohe in described we have itself impounthe win waters the which lock everof oug[reaof surthmifinGanya
PANAMA CANAL. 

the lake. Personally, my observations of these co

are limited to the vicinity of Gatun. We have th

we have everywhere else, hills which are compos

earth formed by decomposition of the underlying 

that, a succession of strata of rock-pretty nearl

find the argillaceous sandstone and a similar succes

we find under the site of the locks. Now, the shorte

from the lake to the opposite side of the hill there 

900 feet, so that water getting into that hill and ge

rial quantities on the other side would have to cr

of 900 feet, would have to cross through the over

clay, would have. to cross through the water-bearin

it may be, and finally get out on the other side. 

present time at Gatun, quite accidentally, a lake 

of the Panama Railroad, which is impounded up ag

water in that lake is about reference plus 40-4

level. It stays there at a pretty steady level. I 

we can form a lake with that material. Nobody ha

square inch of the confines of the lake to be form

dam and can say no crevices exist here, there, or a

it is impracticable for anybody in the course of cen

to do that-to make that investigation; but I do 

is any danger whatsoever from that source, and 

is a criticism or cause of anxiety that is worthy of 

Mr. STEVENs. What will be the area of the lake?

Major HARDING. In the vicinity of 170 square m

Mr. STEVENs. So if a fissure or chasm existed in 

to imperil the impounding of that large volume o

probably be discovered in the near future ?

Major HARDING. If the loss of water was sufficie

rising of the water at the estimated rate, investigatio

Mr. STEVENS. Do you know of any such being di

Major HARDING. 1 have not seen any such manife

heard that investigations were made with reference 

where. in the vicinity of San Pablo, where the materi

shaken ip, where it was said caverns existed, etc

ing my absence from Gatun on leave, and an inve

vicinity Municipal building The tion.he torictions driven loaddMr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor have foundations foundations building of STEvENs. STEVENS. You STEVENS. untilp them was IJARDING. HARDING. compare HARDING. Building to state District they made 25 in for of tons Washington \ I you are You the with resisted by will ho that Major in Yes, I building absolutely to would Gatun were should Major Washington? are ask thebuilding; the sir.Sibert. the familiar the one foundations know pile. locks? Sibert's say in isload engineer question less Washington different that about how with that than direction. the would as that in more comes the obtains in factor you charge are charactpersoncharacthe about expeupon all of atoo
12 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. STEVENS. So that, as a matter of profe

ion, you are willing to state, as a matter of r

t

safety in the Gatun locks will be larger than th

t

Municipal Building in Washington?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. Now, as to the dam. Ther

t

other day that has occasioned much discuss

that slide was, what in your opinion caused it, 

Major HARDING. This slide was a depressi

r

we had built in what is called the south toe of t

p

of the toes of the dam is for retaining walls, b

t

body of the dam will be built. They perform 

t

retaining wall. This fill had stood there for s

the height you saw it the other day, and ap

h

occurred in it, until we began to pump ou

t

French canal, to examine the bottom and cle

W

t

in the French canal had been lowered several 

t

on the other side was about 20 feet higher than t

F

canal, without much warning and in a short 

utes-the settlement occurred as you gentlem

t

That settlement consisted of a depression in th

t

f

horizontal motion toward the north and tow

t

t

dam. In my opinion, the cause of this settle

t

the material on which the fill was placed i

t

sistency of putty-which tends to come out fr

u

impervious, but it is yielding to pressuret, a

outlet can be squeezed out of position. The 

t

p

on that side was removed when the water was p

the equilibrium which existed before, thus 

t

which caused the settlement to occur.

Mr. STEVENS. Is that the only slip which h

t

vicinity?

Major HARDING. No, sir, there have been f

Mr. STEVENS. What was the condition of t

ture on the other side, or just beyond the toe?

Major HARDING. On that side we had filled 

4

t

venting about 30 feet below the level of the rock fill

t

p

should loaded, mov sufficient depression other to move? Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. such the words, STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. say, STEVENS. consequently spread HARDING. HARDING. an HARDING. HARDING. to material that from prevent extent the occurred of How N; the So material Did on the That it No, The None motion that point I the far could the am soft sir. Panama in is temporary at oher the movement where on the material speaking the onmaterial all not Ithat slide rock that railroad at side wasthe Railroad? move. that side ridge? that side. of an ofline on depression laterally occurred that indicattheime. track of the of actuaThe theemridtraoyttrtutt34
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. STEVENs. Did that track Move any on accoun

t

Major HARDING. Yes, sir; it settled, and moved l

tlea, I should say, less than 10 feet, and moved latera

3 

Mr. STEVENS. How much did it disturb your o

t

track?

Major HARDING. Not more than half a day. We 

npm

attention to it until we read about it later.

(The chairman announces that other gentlemen 

lt

interrogate the witness.)

Mr. Esc. Major, are not most stratified rocks p

h

water bearing? Major HARDING. Yes, sir; I think th at is true.

Mr. Escm Then soft sandstone is water bearing?

Major HARDING It is.

Mr. Escn. Have you by test determined the perc

i

a cubic foot, for instance, or any other unit, under t

the upper lock?

Major HARDING. I have not. I have not weighe

taining water, and then dried it out and found the p

l

Mr. Escn. As a rule, there is some flow in all w

is there not?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. Escn. The greater the flow the greater pos

out the binding or cementing material?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. EscH. Have you determined the rate of f

it

sandstone?

Major HARDING. I have not, personally.

Mr. EscH. Has it been done?

Major HARDING. It has been; it is a matter of of

r

Mr. EScH. Have you the data with reference to t

Major HARDING. I believe that is published in M

r

in connection with the dam.

Mr. Esc. Now, there is some flow in that mate

n

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. EscH. Would that flow be augmented by 

h

of Major water? There up is seatream in there outf qite able Mr.ajor Mr. found 85 the those in level. to west. to is feet clarly is the ESCH.scn sea. locks. that cut a HARDING. HARDING. in hills hillsead loss would, Now, off Now, fls that This AndThose there the The toward of towardf my material through head. of increase flow, more as immediate Yes, That was things idea course, the the the orf than sir. a is The as at water 100 thate southeast flow can southeast, at a to increase least 85 matter investigations an feet rapidity presence not thematerial of feet flows retard elevation water is be source of and very at the and predetermin

water of toward next some is,t?graduallthrough head flow? of in difficulrain of suppI in tosomdisthavunovthwththtpmhpttpttmitltlhtlbi
14 PANAMA CANAL.

Major HARDING. Yes, Sir; I think that wo

Mr. ESC. Would it be possible to do eith

you now have at the Gatun locks?

Major IARDING. I think it would be p

flow of water under the lock site to practi

that the water will flow out to sea through 

the site of the locks.

Mr. EscH. If there are fissures in this soft 

the rapidity of flow. Are there such?

Major HARDING. There are.

Mr. Escn. Yet you think, with precaut

reduced to a minimum?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir; I think it can 

Mr. EscH. Then, if you prevent it, you 

reason of the washing out of the binding m

Major HARDING. Yes, sir. Now, there is 

tion with that that I would like to say som

that water has been for ages flowing throug

causing any erosion that we have discovere

my mind that under present conditions ther

under our lock site. In order for material 

some outlet for it, and the erosion that occ

my report in connection with the tests occu

outlet.

Mr. Escn. But the unknown factor is, how 

increased by a head of 85 feet of water?

Major HARDING. That is purely conjectura

Mr. EsCH. Is there any way of determinin

Major HARDING. No satisfactory experim

think of; we can figure safe on it.

Mr. EsCH. As demonstrated by your mode

Major HARDING. No; that is different ma

Mr. EscH. Do you, in your experiments, 

is more largely through fissures in the ma

mass?

Major HARDING. The quantity of water in 

any event under present conditions. The 

yesterday trouble not have for appears of degree structure, Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr. the over be read Escn.cH effects EscH. due of with a to HARDING. HARDING. HARDING. seismic century. including of that to mewater HveAre These such of So your there remarkably blasting, you fissures disturbances depth, blasting? in you Locally We fissures I the do have making know determined, do lcks, not I only inot think, been thyare dr. anticipate-any very excavration from due on know country so no are would the far I to little or appreciasuch duehow anticipseismic Isthmubelow did with be to cauthabfath
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major HARDING. Well, I do not know whethe

have an earthquake or not.

Mr. Esc. I understand the original plan was to 

feet high?

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. Escn. It is now contemplatedto build it o

Major HARDING. There was a proposition to tha

subscribed-to reduce the height to 105 feet inste

Mr. Escx. Would that diminution in height les

the structure?

Major HARDING. I think it may possibly increa

the structure.

Mr. Escn. Explain that, please.

Major HARDING. The weight of the material th

the dam has been measured, and it gives a pressure 

ton to the square foot for every 20 feet in height; 

level of the crest of the dam 20 feet we take off a 

foot of the base of the dam underlying the part th

other words, the pressure on the foundation of the 

less per square foot than it is at the present time. 

high, is 20 feet higher than the maximum level of th

higher than the lock walls or lock gates; and it is h

the natural hills that form the limits of the lake. T

above the lake is certainly ample to take care of an

might occur. The horizontal dimensions of the d

reduced 20 feet, would remain the same as they 

final 20 feet in the dam would cost more than the 

and I can conceive no useful effect of that excessiv

be to provide a margin of safety to take care of any 

may be anticipated will hereafter occur.

Mr. Escn. So that a settlement of 5 feet, or 10 f

not cause a total destruction of the dam?

Major HARDING. In the process of construction 

will take several years to complete, it is my judgmen

get all the settlement we are going to get.

Mr. Esc. So that the height has practically been 

Major HARDING. I could not say definitely as to 

the made with samples. have sphere. fines one level? Majorr. Major Mr. Mr.ajor Mr. character being those of never by CUSHMAN. CUsHMAN. EscH.scn the HARDING. HARDING. HARDING. officials the borings? seen lake, Have Now,of Trinidad; it the Major, previous there Who personally. I in any I I underlying have know do the made are borings I how not surrounding understood to seen twovery thoseigh know; depressions formation? the been little now brings? are records maethat you hills about thse in charge. has to ofr along which the saddthemsaddsay not T
16 PANAMA CANAL.

Major HARDING. Some of them were mad

direction of Mr. Nichols, who is at present 

under the commission. I think, probably, m

under his direction.

Mr. CUSHMAN. Have you examined all the 

Major HARDING. I have examined all of th

ing whatsoever on the lock work. I have n

edge of the borings and experimental data re

the locks.

Mr. CUSHMAN. Under the present adminis

deeper than any other borings made?

Major HARDING. We have.

Mr. CUSHMAN. What is the depth of the b

the present administration?

Major HARDING. On the site of the locks 

when they reached the level of the foundat

underlying object, apparently, was to determ

and to determine whether or not the lock w

rest upon rock. When we had time to more 

the matter we did so by determining what 

encountered.

Mr. CUSHMAN. Do you think they stopped 

the foundation was insufficient?

Major HARDING. No, sir; I never heard th

Mr. CUSHMAN. Were borings made under 

Mr. Stevens; how far did he go?

Major HARDING. Those were the borings I 

ence to the Gatun locks. There is a record o

can not say whether they were made under M

tion or Mr. Wallace's administration. The 

acter of the material and the depth of the 

made the borings and why they stopped are 

record.

Mr. CUSHMAN. Is there any difference in t

found?

Major HARDING. I do not think there is an

acter of the material; I think there is a di

Argillaceous rated was French did there dis-lacement material, material canal. Mrajor. Mrajor. itevidence was clay. have CUSHMAN. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. administration? HARDING. HARDING. IARDING. had a due slibring on sandstone, of 6f been tohe some the What the What In You bttom disturbed I For That of rock reference do subterranean fact theave wasfor possibly not did forndicated material of that insance, read theatknow that the by to depth the the some canal? indicate? 100 distance. the that, and stream a equilibriwas pumping slide feet, accounof horizoan sir. the formupbeym
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major HARDING. I have never heard or seen 

which such statements could be based. I know t

i

n

stream. as well as I know anything.

Mr. BARTLETT. The slide then was caused by t

t

pressure in the canal had been removed from th

l

W

there any evidence on the upper side?

Major HARDING. There was no evidence of any m

m

rial toward the south-all motion was toward the n

T

r

was that the weight of material south was suffici

t

p

motion.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Some reference has been ma

t

p

effect of earthquake disturbance on the dam. Ar

y

the San Leandro dam in California?

Major HARDING. No, sir.

Mr. KNOWLAND. That dam, as I recall, is about 

i

h

I believe it is one of the highest dams in the cou

t

p

time. Now, we had quite a little shake in Cali

f

y

ago, and a very close examination of that dam 

t

that no damage whatever had resulted. So, do y

n

t

would tend to lessen the probability of like dam

r

h

Major HARDING. Yes, sir. I think undoubtedly 

such huge proportions would be affected by an ear

v

m

as a natural hill is affected by an earthquake. 

moderate shake would have no effect at all.

Mr. HUBBARD. With reference to the founda

t

l

walls-I am not sure your statement extended t

think you confined yourself to the east wall-is w

y

cable, also, to the foundations under the middle 

am speaking only of the pair of lower locks.

Major HARDING. Yes, sir. The foundations of t

b

sides of both locks are of undoubted strength.

Mr. HUBBARD. Are they of argillaceous sandsto

t

Major HARDING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Upon what will the walls of t

m

p

locks be founded?

Major HARDING. The wall of the middle lock on t

r

entirely in the argillaceous sandstone. The eas

p

i

third pat glomerate, wall, one-third marked say. rests Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor .Trests on I in HUBBARD. O178-PAN HUBBARD. HUBBARD. HUBBARD. think dp conglomerate. conglomerate, HARDING. HARDING. HARDING. rests andon in I the which madeCAN-09-2 in Now About Will Istrata agillaceous argillaceous It It Inhat part is a is you as and the definite what not due to due on speak the upper the more the to isother north. sandstone, sandstone, remainder statement; a thesoft in break than dip lock, regard angle sandstone? wall? in four in with the of the in to which a I or that stralittle wil thesoft refestrfivivtpttriAmt
18 PANAMA CANAL.

Major HARDING. In the middle wall ab

t

i

argillaceous sandstone, about one-eighth in c

t

remainder in soft sandstone. Under the we

w

mth

of it is in argillaceous sandstone, about one-oic

glomerate, and the-remainder in soft sandstone

Mr. HUBBARD. Will you state a little more f

tp

you contemplate against the subterranean flow o

Major HARDING. The precautions that I w

p

t

with reference to the locks would be made e

ftp

tion of the lock foundations, and have nothin

tdwt

prevention of seepage from the lake. In ordtptf

dations of the locks from danger due to the p

ou

water, I would propose to surround the m

u

t

upper lock with a concrete wall, extending dowwi

is impracticable to state until we get there, b

wm

depth would be down to the line drawn in t

w

argillaceous sandstone without the mixture o

t

T

wall would extend entirely across the head o

t

ldt

east wall of the lock, until we have a thickom

lying the soft sandstone which is capable of r

u

pressure that might occur at that point; extetw

the locks until it joins the west wall, and th

e

i

b

up the west wall, until it makes a complete b

y

m

c

i

inclosing and shutting off the water from thmu

the foundations.

Mr. HUBBARD. That done, you are absoluctn

water would reach this lock site?

Major HARDING. No, sir; I am not. I t

water that would reach the lock site would b

i

rather, such a small quantity as would do no h

e

p

sure or as a scouring agent.

Mr. HUBBARD. But you would be absoluct

safety of the structure so far as that was conc

Major HARDING. I would; yes sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Is that the curtain wall of w

y

w

ago?

sion wrk excavation construction local and erallock. andt Major Mr.ajor Mr.ajor the Barren Poe atnd charge includes STEVENS. STEVENS. Soo, Frm present SIBERT. SIBERT. HARDING. itsn STATEMENT of Detroit especially rivers, work? of of 1894 thelock the in any What U I From charge sea-level to and hatam construction Yes, and works and 1898 in experience is from a 1887 dam OF hadsir. the member your of necessary I portion MAJ. the had 1892 preparation to work something position, 1892 work charge of have to W. ofn of the in the I 1894 the L. in the was you Colon of Major, to Gatun Isthmthe SIBERof KentI canaa assdo hawathe riAHUSAitCdTldtieticeI hRuwtlffth
PANAMA CANAL. 

in Arkansas. My duties there were largely in th

r

streams, in shaping the channel properly. I also 

project for improving the White itiver by locks 

1898 to 1899 I was on duty in the Engineering Sc

as instructor. From 1899 to 1900 I was on duty 

as chief engineer of the Eighth Army Corps, and 

I had charge of a river and harbor district headqu

Ky. This work included the Louisville and Po

Green and Barren rivers, which involved locks an

on the Wabash River. From December, 1901, 

had charge of the river and harbor work nea

included the construction of 5 locks and dams in 

in the Monongahela Liver, and 3 in the Allegheny 

Mr. STEVENS. When did you come to the Comm

Major SIBERT. I left the United States March 

Mr. STEVENS. Since that time you have bad 

dam construction at Gatun? 

Major SIBERT. Yes; I had charge of all lock an

on the canal until last July, when the work was 

to territory and not according to class of work.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you ihad experience in t

earth dams?

Major SIBERT. No, sir; except earthen cofferda

to keep water out of inclosures while you are doin

Mr. STEvENS. You have had much experience 

cement in the construction of locks and dams?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir, generally.

Mr. STEVENS. Will you state to the committe

p

construction of the Gatun dam, exclusive of the l

Major SIBERT. The dam is to be constructed 

k

as the hydraulic method; that is, the material is 

bp

the dam and distributed by water. As the cur

the discharge pipe, is decreased, the material is 

water and is distributed by the flow of the water

this dam, as it is being built, a low place in wh

stand longest, and in which the finest material b

this The water place will constitute the more impermeable p

lake from within the brought deposited dam. If level-20 trains. of determined Majorr. Majorr. we already. sttling level an build STEVENS. STEVENS. That the But engineering into SIBERT. SIBERT. or itsshere to dam as ito 30 in the material, ithe twbfeet the by That will Wil The itslf-that That construction general full go dne the standpoint? possibly dam be you constitutes first along. height wll constitutes allowed hydraulic by of thought give object be hydraulic practically of is, This drawn of the thiso135 slipping the of dredges. the about stand purposes the depth fet-that the material mass off dredges, dam superstrutoe it. alltnd of will of tosome was The thof the matmigcarwhbe is, a thbpp
20 PANAMA CANAL.

instance, take the upper slope of that dam as at 

o3itb

perfectly saturated it might slip within itself. T

pt

iw

decided to make the upper slope flatter, and a ro

tor5

t6

feet high was planned to accomplish this. Thi

r

tw

a buttress or retaining wall for the upper or l

o

td

From the top of this toe to the top of the dam 

f

cb

made and the upper face of the dam itself rende

l

ti

consequence of its own saturation. As the work p

e

cially after these slips, the idea of extending th

t

ff

ther upstream or into the lake, to prevent the d

o

material, in case it became overloaded, also g

t

called, is being extended as far into the lake as t

m

will permit. A toe for similar work is being butno

the dam.

Mr. STEVENS. What is to be the slope of the notd

Major SIBERT. About 1 on 11-that is, 1 ver

th

is the present plan.

Mr. STEVENS. Do you make it so steep in ortmb

greater capacity for silt or to prevent slipping o

m

Major SIBERT. The flatter it is the less apt t

m

it

The flatness of it also gives a greater depth of mo

yielding material and would prevent this yieldinmfb

ing up through the lower slope in case it were oI

words, it balances better the maximum press

uth

part of the dam.

Mr. STEVENS. What do you intend making th

wot

o

the south side of the south toe going into the l

Major SIBERT. The width of this overlying m

Mr. STEVENS. Yes, sir.

Major SIBERT. That has not been definit

d

W

expect to use all the material that we have. Whktu

as a (lump.

Mr. STEVENS. So there is no limit to that?

Major SIBERT. There is- no limit. Should 

d

t

show that it was not extended far enough, w

m

eib

dredging, or we might excavate material out o

th

Mr. STEVENS. Would the putting of such a m

o

h

m

on pressure for could balance extensions then reference toward dump. lying excavated Majorr. Majorr. such the tere the not STEVENS. STEVENS. underlying Gatun? a the It SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. on soft tnatural settle fromshould tat is loads the base practically Mmndi unless this What Do north Yes, base, At The ground, be material tend for material you present no sir. and thise higher is and toe?o material contemplate the horizontal increase and Gatun dam material to consequently that can gradient move you that proper settlement. locks. find is the build is from can simply and being pressure no using of and go undeplace the abouthe the sombeexfoa utdtgtgttlTdiwttgiomwotntpit2ftofm
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. STEVENS. Was there any preparation of 

soil made before you put in the toes?

Major SIBERT. No, sir. Trestles were driven 

from these trestles.

Mr. STEVENs. The vegetation was left?

Major SIBERT. None was removed; it was con

impermeable dam. Its function was to act as a 

Mr. STEVENS. How about the diversions-the 

and the Chagres River?

Major SIBERT. We pumped out of the Chagres 

pump out of the west diversion all silt deposited 

as to get down to the original geological forma

superstructure of the dam to come in dircct contac

Mr. STEVENS. Then this slide took place in the 

Major SIBERT. We have had several slides.

Mr. STEVENS. The large one-now, would it n

reasonable to expect this slide in the channel of the 

Major SIBERT. Not if you examine the profile. 

ing this dam a stratum of dark-blue clay of vari

sistency. In some places it is quite soft, and in 

Overlying that is a stratum of a yellow mixture 

varying thickness. In some places this blue clay 

some places it is in the neighborhood of 70 feet be

thickness of the overlying sand and clay varies ac

about the general condition. The material up

occurred in the French canal is much nearer the 

material is under the Chagres River. There wer

dences is crossing the Chagres, but not such as ha

ing the French canal.

Mr. STEVENS. You have not had any slip in th

Major SIBERT. Yes; a good many small ones.

Mr. STEVENS. And you anticipate more as the 

Major SIBERT. That would be the natural ass

quite a soft place at that end, and there have been 

ual subsidences, and the tracks have to be raised 

Mr. STEVENS. What preparation of the eart

between the toes?

roots not, be erable 2 which connection. been feet Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Major constructed, in uplifted only. of we STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. depth? STEVENS. close SIBERT. top SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. expect proximity soil, Theat the As You In to What least We which Yes;, Thematerial buildorings shown the are have sir. Si geologists we three to do isChagres the now the expected have they vry by is you times; dam. good dam? your preparing indicate? excellent made good Valley, tell and model to one We usmaterial disclosed take is simply te for that where material dam? the out that. for the for sathwthw
22 PANAMA CANAL.

that rather suddenly. While at that height 

the Gatuncillo or Trinidad River, cut throug

ancient geological gorges. After they were 

sided again, approximately as much as it had 

the beds of these streams until they were 200 

b

level. These gorges were filled partially b

brought down by the Chagres River and pa

depending upon the rate at which this low

lowered suddenly, the sea would probably co

get a blue clay deposit. Above that, the 

b

down by the Chagres River.

Mr. STEVENS. What danger, if any, is t

seepage through these gorges after the darn ha

b

Major SIBERT. I do not anticipate any dang

Mr. STEVENS. Notwithstanding a pressure of 

Major SIBERT. This blue clay is quite imperm

Mr. STEVENS. I-low far is that blue clay belo

p

Major SIBERT. It varies in depth from abou

below. It may vary in other ways that I do n

k

Mr. STEVENS. Do you expect to go down tha

r

b

clay in the putting in of sheet piling?

Major SIBERT. It is expected to connect this b

sheet piling with the superstructure of the da

p

build by the hydraulic method.

Mr. STEVENS, And you- can get down in a p

below the surface and 'put in sheet piling? Major SIBERT. Yes, sir. We expect to dig a 

b

sea level. 'The bottom of the river is about 

b

we will drive 50-foot sheet piling in the botto

and thein carry it up in the dry until we Let 5 

Mr. STEVENS. What is the width of ench glrr

Major SIBERT. That is shown. definitely in t

p

published in the annual report; about half of it, 

gorge between Spillway Hill and the lock. The 

and jois on to the hills on the west.6I

Mr. STEVENS. Will you explain what metho

p

are to use?

to water We sea, water in clay bue Down water barrier Major Majorr. Majorr. a it. struck but floor. up clay bearing flowing passing STEVENS. STEVENS. in We &)rto SIBERT. we SIBERT. SIBERT. the wtheave artesian can have bottom if through flow; through superstructure there What In get no The Yes; We to in your information water no will Wakefield of was depend othr it there. system? it proof the makes or use opinion, a with continuous words, that gorges that wooden on that system; an that the water we head thatthrough impervious there there material propose there piling, line can of would it is iss from the of any is getlikmtrtia bbpb
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. STEVENS. You constructed a shaft just w

please give us the purpose of that shaft, and let 

it teaches, if any.

Mijor SIBERT. That was primarily constructe

nature and character of the rock in the spillway. 

used in a test to determine the question of wheth

to be transmitted through the small crevices in th

dentally to get some information, if possible, 

through these rocks; that is, it was filled after it w

of 35 feet above the sea by water from a water t

the results were observed.

Mr. STEVENS. Did you try to fill in water and 

water'and note the effect on the other test holes 

Major SIBERT. Yes; in excavating this pit it w

it unwatered, and that, of course, would give 

effect on holes in the vicinity, but we observed 

there than at the locks. The geological strata i

practically the same as those in the locks; in oth

-geological stratum was cut into by these gorges.

Mr. STEVENS. Did you find a good foundation 

spillway? 

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the formation?

Major SIBERT. Argillaceous sandstone.

Mr. STEVENS. And you did not find softer stone 

Major SIBERT. The same material is there, bu

did not have to go so deep for the foundation of 

locks.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the height of the miter 

above sea level?

Major SIBERT. The miter sill applies to the 

height of the foundation would be the point you a

way itself would not have been excavated to anyt

it is now had it not been necessary to use it as a d

the Chagres while we were building the dam bet

the depth of that excavation was fixed by the 

Chagres River would attain during floods, and 

'Concrete It goes founded We the will purpose with about the struction excavate to Majorr. is cover purpose lake. strata have nowthrough our 16 STEVENS. to SIBERT. on ad feet work, ofn with 8 access, that blnket placing feet this thelet below there, concrete and spillway? carry that above south8-foot Then No, so the regulating it we join that sir. water will face yousea lake south elevation. will all on no level. We not exposed level, see of ultimately to the face water works the the no purpose attain most, and of We hillsheet element The can rock Spillway which on until figure such build and top piling, get the surface will blankwe of a toof top into thaa Hiheuchtcac
24 PANAMA CANAL.

material, pumping it there as in the dam, thus practically shutting

off the lake from this hill. It is a small hill isolated by these gorges.

Mr. STEVENS. How far will this sheet piling be north of the south

toe?

Major SIBERT. North of the south toe? The sheet piling comes

directly under the center of the dam.

Mr. STEVENS. I mean the center of the high part of the dam. It.

will be nearer the south edge?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir. The dam is practically horizontal and

100. feet wide on top, and under the high flat part in the center

comes the sheet piling.

Mr. STEVENS. In pumping out the shaft at the spillway, what

effect had it in lowering the level in the test holes along the &am?

Major SIBERT. There was one hole in the spillway that was artesian and about 640 feet away from the test pit. We made no systematic observation, but when we pumped out the test pit the flow

stopped in the artesian hole, which showed the connection.

Mr. STEVENS. What was the remotest test pit from the shaft that

was affected by the pumping-out process?

Major SIBERT. That was the only one observed. We carried on

systematic testing on that line at the locks. There the effect was

noticed as far as 2,000 feet away.

Mr. STEVENS. Was that test hole east or west or north or south

of the shaft?

Major SIBERT. North of the shaft. It lowered the water in the

holes in every direction, but we had the longest line of holes in the

direction of the lock, north to south.

Mr. STEVENS. That would indicate the connection of all the test

pits with the shaft?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. That connection, you think, was through fissures or

the waterlogged mass of material?

Major SIBERT. I think principally and almost entirely through

small fissures.

Mr. STEVENS. Of course your pumping-out process hastened the

flow?

Major SIBERT. Toward the pit-yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. You believe that when the dam is completed, as you

now plan. it, the underground flow will be practically eliminated, if

not stopped?

Major SIBERT. You mean the dam or the lock?

Mr. STEVENS. Well, both.

Major SIBERT. I think the underground flow under the locks will

be increased somewhat when the lock is finished.

Mr. STEVENS. By reason of the head?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir, by reason of the head. If that water gets

no outlet anywhere, I do not see how it can do any harm. It has

been traveling that way for centuries through these crevices. If it

can not get any outlet nearer than its present outlet, which is undoubtedly in the sea, the distance will be so great that the head will

be so reduced, as it has been for ages past, that there can be no

enlargement of the fissures. If it has an outlet, I would expect some

scour, as has been seen in the test pit dug at the locks in the soft

sandstone of the black variety.

Mr. STEVENS. What was the rapidity of the flow in the test pit?
PANAMA CANAL. 25

Major SIBERT. We got, I think, between 38,000 and 40,000 gallons

per day.

Mr. STEVENS. What was the diameter of it?

Major SIBERT. About 6 feet square-maybe a little larger; big

enough to go into and to excavate by hand.

Mr. STEVENS. With the method of cut-off of the underground flow,

due to a head of 85 feet, as described by Major Harding, will you have

reduced the underground flow to a po:nt where it would not endanger

the foundations of your locks?

Major SIBERT. Personally, I do not think it practicable to cut off

this flaw entirely, because we do not know the depth of these fl'sures,

and consequently we do not know for certain that we can keep the

pressure of the lake from under our lock floors by the curtain wall. I

think the flow of water under the lock foundations would be diminished, but I do not feel certain that we would not get a head of water

under the floors with this curtain-wall.

Mr. STEVENS. Do you think whatever flow remains after all these

precautions have been taken will in any degree lessen the security of

your lock and dam?

Major SIBERT. If the water does not break up the floor and make

an outlet. If it does that I would not feel sure.

Mr. STEVENS. What do you mean by breaking up the floor?

Major SIBERT. If the pressure due to the head of water in the lake

under these floors were sufficient to break the floor, there would then

be an outlet for the lake water to come into the lock, but the main

part of this flow would be reduced by these curtain walls, but I would

not feel sure that it might not disturb some of the soft sandstone.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the contemplated thickness of the floors?

Major SIBERT. The question has not yet been decided. It is still

an open question.

Mr. STEVENS. Can any test be made to determine what thickness is

required?

Major SIBERT. No, sir; you can only assume pressures you are

liable to get. It is merely an assumption. We know tlt it can not

be more than that due to an 85-foot head.

Mr. STEVENS. If there is no friction whatever?

Major SIBERT. Yes; that is the maximum.

Mr. STEVENS. How thick a floor would be required to safeguard

against the maximum pressure?

Major SIBEIRT. If it were built as an arch, it would, take a floor of

from 9 to 11 feet thick.

Mr. STEVENS. Then you are going on a theory of a coefficient of

safety of 2-double?

Major SIBERT. I hardly think that is enough myself. I think it

is lower than the factor of safety that should be taken.

Mr. STEVENS. Now, then, if the pressure is liable to burst up the

floor of the lock, is there not something in the material which may

crack-like cement?

Major SIBERT. In what material?

'Mr. STEVENS. In cement material. Would not a large floor of

cement 110 feet by 1,000 feet be liable to fracture or fissuring without

even any pressure applied?

Major SIBERT. It would depend on bow it was put in. If you put

in a layer 110 feet wide, it would be liable to crack of itself in setting,
26 PANAMA CANAL,

but if you put it in in three pieces, arranged 

soirs of an arch, they would not crack; on th

building of any other arch.

Mr. STEVENs. Have you got to allow for ex

Major SIBERT. Practically none; the temp

Mr. STEVENS. This floor is to be built of re

Major SIBERT. No reinforcements, just con

Mr. STEVENS. If there was a crack in the 

would be erosion of the material of the soft 

cause leakage.

Major SIBERT. Only on condition of its b

fissure.

Mr. STEVENS. I will not ask you anything 

locks.

Major SIBERT. I want to say it is thoroug

lock that can stand all the possible.pressure t

Mr. STEVENS. Let me ask you your opinion 

ence; do you believe that dams and locks, as 

plans, will be a safe structure to meet all con

Major SIBERT. If the floors of the locks are 

possible upward pressure, I consider it feasib

will stand any strain that is brought against 

Mr. STEVENS. Now, there are two saddles i

Have you made any examination of these?

Major SIBERT. Only from borings that hav

these hills are not close. One saddle is quite c

the Trinidad.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the height of that 

level?

Major SIBERT. For a considerable distance 

Mr. STEVENS. That would be soft earth, w

Major SIBERT. Earth and underlying mater

sary to increase the height of that saddle.

Mr. STEVENS. Has there been any boring in 

Major SIBERT. An attempt was made in th

spillway there instead of through the dam, b

bottom was not of sufficient hardness to just

to not feasible floors water building there. not was flowing Mr.ajor The Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr. pevent make thinkconditioned STEVENS. HUBBARD. can HUBBARD. HUBBARD. CHAIRMAN. through through to SIBERT. SIBERT. a SIBERT. it any curtain be any build will constructed experiments the seepage But on the cut Well, this That Well, I Your wall Hasunderstand the lock floors? off the structure is see you anyI floor statement I in the floors? material my do think no sthat willin other flow? nt being opinion. value as that you it cutso direction? know to gentleman will was so that direction. off to inprevent construcnot that very say,fe the the Major it cut wilflocuMthenmaj
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major SIBERT. It can he so constructed.

Mr. HUBBARD. You are building an earth dam th

So far as the dam is concerned, you do not expect

not want, a rock foundation except as to the spillw

Major SIBERT. I would like to have a rock found

can get it.

Mr. HUBBARD. Did you expect it for the dam?

Major. SIBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Your dam will be constructed, 

earth on earth?

Major SIBERT. Yes, Sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Did you resort to any additiona

moting a union between the earth originally there an

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir; we drive a line of sheet 

the more impermeable material under the dam w

place on the dirt.

Mr. HUBBARD. Is that same sheet piling driven in 

or hinder the flow of water?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Is there any core proposed to th

such necessary?

Major SIBERT. It is proposed to make, as is or

hydraulic-filled dams, a more impermeable part, wh

core; that is to be directly over the line of sheet pil

Mr. HUBBARD. And so regulating the inflow that 

will be deposited ia that place?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. What is to be the width or thick

exclusive of the toes?

Major SIBERT. One thousand two hundred feet, e

the impermeable part will be about 1,200 feet.

Mr. HUBBARD. In addition to that, the toes on 

-are built for support and which are not for the pu

it impermeable?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You say you would rather hav

tion?

your between good carry bear safe,at dam, tion Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Major Gatun of the foundation. opinion which but oRICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. RiCHARDsON. HUBBARD. the the SIBEur. SIBERT. great SIBERT. SIBERT. darn the under damis lock that present baed a weight, safe the or Yes, We TheJudge, it If damn, Is Yes; Bcause will on locks whole you foundation? project. have sir. sir. success it can the not allownd canresist I we canal carry am fact not a not that if have. of fact all speaking me you a that depends? any the build rockpressure more thato are you load damask the foundation speaking on certainly of believe if the that dependGatun and you damsfethcoota
28 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And it was always kno

tw

nr

foundation?

Major SIBERT. It was always known.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And is it not true that 

t

py

can take in putting in material to resist the p

o

t

w

that if the foundation is not good, all that co

fn

Major SIBERT. If the foundation will not b

t

lw

c

not build and maintain the dam.

Mr. KNOWLAND. But in your opinion, Majo

yt

ic

Major SIBERT. I think the dam can be bui

Mr. KNOWLAND. And will hold?

Major SIBERT. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that a safe and fty

locks may be had?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You say a secure and effi

lmb

h

Major SIBERT. If you can prevent the breauotlf

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you make this cwy

as an engineer that you can have a safe floor t

yl

Maj or SIBERT. In the investigations to dtc

of the material under this lock we dug a tes

p

n

t

l

going down through the same material thaieit

foundations of this lock. We came down to t

o

blue variety, and we placed on that a test loo5pt

square inch, and that load finally-the wh

to

and an investigation of it afterwards showe

tp

o

sand in that stone were carried out by ero

c

bg

water coming up and escaping at the edges. I

wg

to this water, this same thing is liable to occbtwp

through these crevices in addition to the g

wd

take this sandstone away. If the water has n

i

m

g

o

as it always has done for centuries, through tci

this rock to the sea, and the further it goes tlpiht

do damage, as it loses head by friction, and icni

can go on its old road to the sea.

The CHAIRMAN. I think I will ask you on

qm

Y

have said it is practicable for you to have a f

for t can up with so breakup. insufficiency the lutely Major The Major The Major The have as these of curtain have the theoCHAIRMAN. safe. CHAIRMAN. CHAIRMAN. a SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. locks? sufficiency SIBERT. withstand a safe floor walls, safe of Iflock theof you floor Yes,; is I Well, Then the Can Then, if lock? put noof the put the why sir. this? it lock. it such thatone you pressure can in floor whybe do there done? plan, a further condition be you You plan does done. you a put that the ares not floor say I put that in plan an think break comes that that becin engcooiepuNtiyotbycitfibiwntctreuwmtlwp
PANAMA CANAL. 

that can be brought against it, in my opinion, the 

b

lutely safe. The floor can he put in, and the lock

safe.

The CHAIRMAN. Then why can not you, with t

p

have suggested, say as an engineer that you can bui

absolutely adequate lock?

Major SIBERT. I do say so.

Mr. HUBBARD. To put it in definite order; he fir

b

safe if the floor can be made safe, and he said seco

can be made safe.

Major SIBERT. I want to say as an engineer tha

reliable structure can lie built there at Gatun lock

r

under any and every circumstance.

Mr. CUSHMAN. In other words, in regard to this 

are dependent on this curtain wall fulfilling its funct

feel like making the floor of the locks so thick?

Major SIBERT. If I felt sure that the curtain w

certainly cut off all access of water, I would say "b

but I do not feel that.

Mr. CUSHMAN. And it is the doubt that remains 

how much water you may have there in spite of th

makes you emphasize the necessity of a very heav

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir. This country is fissure

k

to what depth, and you do not know that that cu

below all the fissures, and is cutting out all access 

The CHAIRMAN. There are no limitations placed 

thickness of the floor, and then there is no reason in 

can not build it. You have charge of it, have you 

Major SIBERT. Yes; but I do not determine the p

Mr. STEVENS. Major, you can calculate with fa

tainty the maximum pressure of that lock floor?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. You can also calculate the amou

r

the material that you will use for the lock floor, a

p

will stand?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. So, it is only a matter of calculatio

pressure sition? solution fissures pressure tions under assumptions. out?Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. that STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. the inSIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. can and as we most the any be meeting can material, met adverse Then If And So You have, Yes, That None other anyit by it it iscanir. there is and whatever. pressure increased which is with assumptions. only engineering what a mke the It matter is sufficient a will no is I floor question the be think as resistance mystery be exerted, of subject hardest can problem. increased calculation about resisance be ofabout you cnstruof it assumto it.will the exagenby It ihphu
30 PANAMA CANAL.

Major SIBERT. Just so, but this plan has nby

Mr. STEVENS. So if we-Congress-gye yot

to work with, the lock can be built in such m

t

Major SIBERT. There can be built a lock tha

t

Mr. STEVENS. What doubt is there about t

W

is its weakest point?

Major SIBERT. The only weak point in the 

i

Mr. STEVENS. Over the whole length of it?

Major SIBERT. No; not over all of it. Ove

tp

this blue clay, this slippery clay, comes closes

t

Mr. STEVENS. How great an area, or length

t

Major SIBERT. I could not answer that wit

tp

files, but there are 300 or 400 feet west of the F

b

there and Spillway lill, where this material c

t

surface.

Mr. STEVENS. You would assume that abou

3

4

be contained in the foundation of such materia

yh

Major SIBERT. That amount is in the easte

Ft

diversion, which is a narrow gorge, we have 

about the other, but from such experience a

h

r

think that the nature of the material near the 

t

rather soft.

Mr. STEVENS. Now, as to the rest of the d

p

of the river, what doubt have you as to the 

t

p

the structure?

Major SIBERT. As I stated before, I think w

b

t

on all the foundation.

Mr. STEVENS. Let us analyze the matter

t

part, what reason is there to doubt its safety? W

i

t

which would cause it to be unsafe outside of t

p

Major SIBERT. None, except the ability of t

t

the load, and it is so far down as to be out of th

Mr. STEVENS. Then you would not question 

p

Major SIBERT. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. As to the treacherous part, 

y

t

overcome the difficulty?

Major SIBERT. We are so balancing, so a

t

north material Isthmus the and been what put and formed. , Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor dumps, more continue it made, happens? and STEVENS, STEVENS. STEVENS. is SIBERT. SIBERT. that SIBERT. a in material south greatand these and building we the You IsNow, of deal expecially Just During Largely are two in, balance thate just now andof until continue; lines if dam a experience your cnstruction, continue? add speaking matter can wewith thatmater as experience more not have to that ourtheof prevent be of. of inload a willcaculatcreated fills experienstructuif that experit abobe shoof ahtWtththtybttbt
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. STEVENS. What tests are you making to c

y

rience in the line of balancing as to this treacherou

p

tion?.

Major SIBERT. We will make no tests, except actu

t

b

That is the only way we can load it, as it goes ut

slips, and there may be slips, we will meet them a

Mr. STEVENS. Then, you expect more slips?

Major SIBERT. Yes; 1 expect more slips.

Mr. STEVENs. Constantly?

Major SIBERT. I expect slips.

Mr. STEVENs. Do you consider it as a part of t

t

treacherous portion that there may be undergroun

Major SBERT. I do not; that is, no deep seepage

r

the opinion that that part which is soft is made so

from the hill.

Mr. STEVENS. And that would be the utmost d

t

be caused by seepage?

Major SIBERT. I can imagine no damage to this 

other way than by slips. I believe the dam to b

if water-tight no current can get through it. Sett

are the cnly two things, barring earthquakes, and i

as I think it is, b-ttcm and t- p, I believe we can 

water in it that will destr: v its fcundaticns.

Mr. STEVENS. So that tlhe real danger is in the u

tion cf loads over the treachercus portion, causing 

Majcr SIBERT. That is the cnly thing that I k

t

ought to be met in the building.

Mr. STEVENs. Now, supposing it is not met in tb

are cnly human, and suppc sing you make mistakes, i

t

rial that is reserved, is there any known skill (f ent

ccrrect such a mistake as was corrected in the slip 

tW

Dam?

Major SIBERT. That slip was in the dam itself.

Mr. STEVENS. Will n-t this be in the dam itself?

Major SIBERT. No; this slip will be in the dit

material under the dam.

Mr. STtVENs. The dam would slip down in its p

rial sbe Wegoneer vaious enoughtop Dam the as Majorajor Mr.ajor Mr. to cf material cf have in contingency? beyond the STEVENS. STEVENS. the it, the cf reasons. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. face portion it flattened whole it-togorge, wouldwe the cfit What Then,have let ordinary propcsition, cf If You It If slipped all the the would the the that go can will precautions slope we tracherous dam dam out. material should not settle off. limits not are immediately and down viz, adopt getting slide That down. cnsiderably. put happen, that under are soportion on ay. could a you that down scmebuttress itself In the over what adoptinnot water the cf cfto in dam thahapit, slp thethwthtWhtWhtutbtrrtp
32 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. STEVENS. Is it feasible to have a reserv

to use any walls, or anything like that, that c

such a contingency?

Major SIBERT. The higher you build the d

reserve material you have on top of it, but the 

heavier you load the foundations.

Mr. STEVENS. In order to make a slip that w

would have to be enough slip to let through 

or it could be repaired.

Major SIBERT. If it ever let any water thro

that is, at the top. If it settled so that a litt

finger started over the top of the dam, it wou

Mr. STEVENS. So you have to have a dam 

any question of subsidence for some years to 

Major SIBERT. It would be better to so b

remove all risks of subsidence. If it starts a

is difficult to say how far it will go. It is 

beginning.

Mr. STEVENS. In what way are you meetin

Major SIBERT. We are meeting it by so p

and below the dam as will prevent subsidenc

movement of material from under the dam.

Mr. RICHARDSON. When you speak of so 

what do you mean? You have a dam so wide 

by the pumping of certain material. Wha

balancing this material?

Major SIBERT. The heaviest load on the f

the highestrpart of the dam. If the material 

is not confined it must buckle up somewher

can not move, the dam can not settle. We a

extending the fills above and below the dam, s

ground to such an extent as -to confine the 

in case it should be overloaded. If the unde

move the dam can not settle.

Mr. RICHARDSON. This balancing method 

bottom of the dam exceedingly wide?

Major SIBERT. Yes.

when out to dam. cnal of Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.~STEVENS. Majorr. Major the carry the you prism. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. dam. RICHARDsON. plan. them, SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. dum make The and the Whereat WhIS the Any It I Material The plan thik it so is material? Then plans impervious? not exend material. is dumping material is is that we your t impervious; out for the have crry stuffthem the deficiency of balancing do of We which enough. the you great you theas are toeso itare wantmateto widusinis balof yoso pumbm
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. STEVENS. What is it that weights down the f

Major SIBERT. The waste material from the lock e

Mindi, and at Bohio, and anywhere in the canal.

Mr. STEVENs. And you have sufficient of that?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. If you concede that it will be ne

extend the dam to assist in the :'rocess of balancin

or rreventin disturbance, you have the material t

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. I noticed a criticism in the Washi

the same line; that the inherent defect is the geolo

the Isthmus; that the foundations are so unstable th

skill can overcome that inherent defect; that f

through unknown material. Don't you know abo

these gorges ?

Major SIBERT. Yes, sir. As much as man can kn

W

put test holes all through it; we have put a test pi

below sea level on Gatun Island, and have actua

material as it exists in situ down to that depth.

Mr. STEVENS. If you have made your test pits, 

made your calculations as to the strata connecting 

your experience show as to the actual kind of m

come to excavate? Does the excavation sustain y

Major SIBERT. We make no calculations as to th

the dam, but the excavations show a material t

p

impermeable, underlying what we might call the s

top. There is no chance in. my mind of any volume 

p

through this underlying material so as to scour it. 

b

than most of the material we come in contact with

meability is concerned.

Mr. STEVENS. So that that criticism that is made

know of the material that you are dealing with i

unfounded?

Major SIBERT. We know it as well as any man ca

k

Mr. STEVENS. And you are making your cal

knowledge found in that way?

Major SIBERT. We are making our plans on tha

k

we the find resistance is meeting of able, there of another? of Mr.ajor Mr. what Mr. that. resistance these base material in you 70178-PAN any STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. these it.actually the these SIBERT. SIBERT. materials; The find calculation to assertion gorges, in slipping of objections on them this CAN-09--3 these And Is yYes., does thre thing test youunder that canthat that thatt treacherous sir. when find pit. that any be we is there are you cnditions There determined, to them can limitation we you urged can are say, will go cme know? confined are materials working make be by, here? there that no ways to by and that build. seepage are you experien

by out by we in the will certawallknoalosiphavwhm

o

r
34 PANAMA CANAL.

Major SIBERT. That objection is one of see

fissures. There are no fissures in these gorge

rock and is very close and compact.

Mr. STEVENS. So that there is nothing in th

that the flow of water is such by seepage that 

being formed?

Major SIBERT. Through the material in the 

Mr. STEVENS. Yes.

Major SIBERT. I (to not think there will b

of flow through this material.

Mr. STEvENs. Now, this engineer, a one-tim

mission, is alleged to have said that the water-

the Chagres River is such that it makes flow 

the river almost equal to the flow of the rive

anything about that?

Major SIBERT. No, sir. It is an impossibil

Mr. STEVENS. He says that there is a flo

material under the river bears water to such an 

the Chagres River enlarging its current much 

Major SiBERT. That is impossible. Water 

has a head to make it flow.

The CHAIRMAN. Where does it go to?

Mr. STEVENS. It does not say. Then yo

made by Professor Burr, in the New York H

that the seepage is a difficult matter to restra

is-unfounded?

Major SIBERT, Ie means seepage?

Mr. STEVENS. le says seepage.

Major SIBERT Well, I think the question of 

of earth is susceptible of almost accurate dete

building experimental dams.

Mr. STEVENS. That is, the seepage through 

how about the material under the dam?

Major SIBERT. You can take that material a

tests, .as has been done in this case, and I feel 

be no material seepage through the Gatun dam 

underlying the dam.

only stay, in scheme at engineer, Mr. Majorr. Major The Major The Major The your Gatun? chance and STEVENS. STEVENS. CHAIRMAN. CHAIRMAN. CHAIRMAN. and judgment, or SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. about you plan? plan of put danger. the as The And I Yes; Under Yes, emphasis such it You Under Then, would general has real you sir. in say a been th you lck the danger are not a practicability on general have lock from manner meeting plan can say the is can be no time the now word the plan; built doubtescribebe that? real to adopt

one " buil

of timcanunyesdath

w
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major SIBERT. I feel that the locks and dams ca

is some chance of danger in the Gatun dam fou

not think it is material enough to constitute an 

the range of possibility that some slips might hap

it is in the range of probability or not, I do not thi

the slipping of the underlying material of the G

to my mind, is the only \Xeak point in the scheme, 

point. As to the water supply of the lake; the q

loss, not under the Gatun dam, but through the hi

is a question we can only guess at.

The CHAIRMAN. Has there been no such explora

enable you to say that after your work has been 

yOu have got your 85 feet of head, that all that ma

by the escape of these impounded waters by fis

know anything about?

Major SIBERT. We know it Mill not escape over 

the surrounding hills, but we do not know with a

definiteness the character of the rock and of the ma

the rim of the lake.

The CHAIRMAN. You have spoken a little while 

of the rim of the lake that was 2 feet above the 

is the ' idth of that rip?

Major SIBERT. It is of considerable width at th

* The CHAIRMAN. In feet or miles?

Major SIBERT. In feet, not in miles. We purpose 

low places by a dam, or levee, built on top of the 

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any disaccordance o

part of the engineers now engaged in this work as 

of the plans?

Major SIBERT. Not that I know of.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there general harmony amon

to its feasibility?

Major SIBERT. As to the feasibility of the gen

can be carried out, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Within the limits of reasonable 

Major SIBERT. Yes; there is no reason to suppo

be a greater cost unless something unforeseen happ

As such would referred has soft when present concerned the atat Major Mr. Majorr. the ansubject placed matrial defect as you engineer, Gatun be HIUBBARD. RICHARDSON. plan is to, SIBERT. SIBERT. possible came in proposed, there, of and dam orthatabout the provide which, on dowere foundation, Let I None that Mjor, to part this you think which Following overcome that prejudiced me fails if work, of whatever. believe a anything, going Sed it safehe engineering suspicion to will that youI provide work? foundation it would that back up be in by had question physically did the favor if may removing to like aby skill any constitute question safe theexist. nature for t ofpart please. and foundaquestioput it; that possiball in abi

I to su

or a otd

f
36 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. HUBBARD. There may be a suspicion th

tion in the United States Army, you might no

any objections to the feasibility of this pla

occurred to you. I wish to ask if you would, 

free to make known any such objection?

Major SIBERT. I would feel free to make it 

vital.

Mr. HUBBARD. That is, if you were set to e

according to somebody else's plan, and had 

that it could not be carried out, there would 

known with propriety to some one?

Major SIBERT. I would not build a thing I d

there, unless I had notified some one in highe

of my fears, and this higher authority assume

plan.

Mr. HUBBARD. Have you ever felt such a d

Major SIBERT. I have always had confiden

and these difficulties, which are not serious, w

ing now are the only things that have happe

credit on the scheme, and that is entirely in t

not had sufficient data to form any definite 

water by seepage in this lake, and that is a ques

way of investigating; it is a chance we have to 

Mr. STEVENS. I do not know if it is serious 

you could not hold the lake.

Major SIBERT. It is an unknown field to me

The CHAIRMAN. In the dry season there is 

the lake?

Major SIBERT. Yes; but not sufficient for c

the dry season there will be a continual loss 

we have to impound in this lake all the reserve 

Chagres River for the dry season.

The CHAIRMAN. That is practicable?

Major SIBERT. Yes; we can impound all th

River. We do not do it in the present plan, b

feet of storage we would impound all of the w

That would not be a very expensive propositio

in atbelow so canal theos Majorajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.r.ajor Mr. your deep. 87 toe 1,200 ofeet was HUBBARD. HUBBARD. HUBBARD. sea HUBBARD. HUBBARB. the of mind? SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. SIBERT. feet below That level. the not dam. of dam. very clay seawidth We It Some Int What In At Can Insoft; level. material is is one what places som have the found you not fairly of of iswest place that the dpth it the developed all express places Therewhere both close practically is impermeable soft; was diversion depth not it does under seems, ist it to all it itais harder of twohe this approximsoft; is so deeper it the comes we only to surfacsoft soft, from bluiparthe chatoehavvaspa
PANAMA CANAL. 3

Mr. HUBBARD. You mean that you do not kno

w

i

under the impermeable part of the dam?

Major SIBERT. I do not think it exists there in 

as it does in the toes of the dam.

Mr. HUBBARD. Have you any reason to suppos

t

i

t

serious extent under the impermeable part of the 

Major SIBERT. I have reason to think it is not 

T

swampy places at the toes. Evidently the water 

f

t

hills and makes the ground softer there.

Mr. HUBBARD. You intend to prevent the slip? Major SIBERT. Yes; we will drive this materia

b

t

l

i

the toes.

Mr. HUBBARD. After your construction is comp

t

w

in the lake site comes in, will there be any danger 

t

ing up under the weight of that water?

Major SIBERT. I think that the pressure of the w

i

t

l

w

help conditions.

Mr. HUBBARD. Whatever danger there may b

i

t

w

b

more apt to manifest itself during construction th

Major SIBERT. That is my judgment.

Mr. HUBBARD. If such a thing could be as tha

f

9 or 11 feet thick is insufficient-if it turned out t

w

n

prevent the uprising of the water through the flo

w

it become manifest?

Major SIBERT. The first time we pumped out th

l

B

t

is no question about that phase of it. You can so b

t

f

t

stand any possible pressure

Mr. HUBBARD. And you can ascertain that scie

Major SIBERT. Yes; you can make the harde

t

can exist and design against it.

Mr. HUBBARD. And in your judgment it is d

b

11 feet of thickness?

. Major SIBERT. I think if you put an inverted ar

i

t

f

t

thick at the crown, it will stand any pressure tha

w

it and prevent any escape of water.

(The committee thereupon took a recess until 

p

i

rience to Weitzel theion assistant and Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel 1888, STATEMENT Poe regulating of STEVENS. in STEVENS. STEVENS. those lck this when chif HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. plans. were at line engineer. works. I Sault What What was of OF being I My work? H. Subsequently, LIEUT. am Ste. assistant has is F.first pepared, charged your the AFTER been Marie Hodges; duty particular COL. name theo had with RECESS. in and General H. after nature member and thisbeen F. the I nature four hadstation general HODGESdesign of complPoe.f yearour a of hathoUAtIywtlplwfAttpfitpi
38 PANAMA CANAL.

assistant professor of engineering at West Po

Colonel Stickney on river work--work of this 

that is, locks and dams. From 1893 to 1896 I 

on the upper Missouri River. From 1896 to 

the board which had charge of making the typ

ments for seacoast defense. In 1898-99 I wa

unteer regiment. From 1899 to 1901 I had 

the tributaries of the Ohio River, including the 

and Muskingum rivers, which are slack-water

had 4 locks and dams to design or build an

From 1901 to 1902 I was chief engineer of th

under General Wood. From 1902 to 1907 I 

and harbor division in the office of the Chief of 

me, to a certain extent, a consulting engineer 

acter. Since then I have been with the Isthn

in one capacity or another.

Mr. STEVENS. When did you come upon 

your position?

Colonel HODGES. Early in July of last year

Mr. STEVENS. In your professional experie

professional papers upon subjects of this natur

Colonel HODGES. Yes; I wrote a paper on t

gates.

Mr. STEVENS. So that you are familiar wi

subject in the profession?

Colonel HODGES. In a general way, yes.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you personally acqua

plans and with the situation on the ground?

Colonel HODGES. I have.

Mr. STEVENS. Of the Gatun project?

Colonel HODGES. I have.

Mr. STEVENS. Please give us the benefit o

experience and judgment as to the safety 

first, of the locks and lock foundations.

Colonel HODGES. First, as to the safety o

The walls are calculated to stand any pressur

possible from operation under masonry, the siderably pressure less you safety; are of th foundation, Mr. examination. masonry calculated unwatered, concrete than can the those STEVENS. that depend for would that, filling by is reduced. it circumstances, 18 will rests them is a is tohrust and tons to asinbeo upon In stand; withstand The on rear. theysay, willto spread what about to I the from be greatest its heard the not will the that rock, This way being brought that 250 the square exceed and be land the is,t do at wouldater strain on pounds the distributed? stated thrustat in what you walls foot, rather 200 under, the pressure in only be that distribu

might pounds body fromby front. per may which counrare in witis ansqotba b
PANAMA CANAL. 

Colonel HODGES. The greatest strain falls on the 

the gate recesses of the middle wall, where caviti

the wall so that the front of the gates will be flu

the wall after they are opened. These cavities thi

point by double the thickness of the gates, so that 

thickness there will be only 43 feet where the g

greatest stress is found. 'Ihis thin wall, howeve

entirely to the bottom. On the contrary, there w

the character of the rock we find, from 6 to 13 fee

the bottom of the gate recesses, of the full thickn

spreading out into the masonry of the floor, so that 

tion of the wall is spread at the base and the pre

reduced. So much for the wall.

You asked about the foundation. The characte

was fully explained to you this morning by those w

familiar with it. In my opinion, with proper preca

softer sandstone as it is exposed there is no questio

der of the foundation and the concrete with whic

holes where the soft stone is removed will have 

excess of any pressure which can be brought to be

Mr. STEVENS. What, in your estimation, is the 

of the water upon the lock floor by reason of the 

coming through a fissure in the rock-a seam some

an exit through a weak place in the lock floor?

Colonel HODGES. I do not consider that to be 

not be readily provided against.

Mr. STEVENS. You have that in mind in the prep

for these locks?

Colonel HODGES. I have.

Mr. STEVENS. So that as far as human ingenuity 

you say it can-that may be considered as elimin

Colonel HODGEs. Yes.

Mr. STEVENS. Now as to the dam itself. What 

in the structure of the dam as it will be finally pl

the earth?

Colonel HODGES. In the structure of the dcam 

place. impervious weakest to or Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel a danger-the sliding STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. place HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. and on or the slipping, complete That What Any. Yes; Now, So possibility slippery I The Unbalanced Yes, A I that thoroughly is but do other movement will in sippery to asin not and would would the layer be say, you mycause? of anticipate may the foundation trouble? have opinion. so be pressure nature seepage believe of cause of far be its thetated the eliminated

as foundationof any sole. cause the substanoverheaof that?e it?dangposdarn the foth
40 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. STEVENS. In what way are you guardi

t

Colonel HODGES. Both in the plan of the ditm

in which the material of the dam will be plaIipt

plan to confine the impervious portion of the 

f

t

between piles of stone forming the toes of t

which piles of stone are further blankets of e

r

ih

from that of the stone piles to a conveniehtp

farthest outside the slope. Those blankets t

toes are planned to be so wide that they wiht

of earth overlying the soft layer for a very 

outside of the toe and prevent any heaving utf

a distance that the friction of the underlym

material-on the under surface of the crust, tu

face of the more solid layer underneath, wibti

can not be squeezed out. Then inside the tm

the impermeable portion of the dam, rises w

that there is no sudden load thrown on any ptbu

neath, and the pressure on that, while it incr

t

the middle of the dam, does not change sudd

W

the portion under the crown of the darn is mhly

that heavy load will not be sufficient to overco

tf

i

by the blanket on the outside of the toes att

material out from under the dam.

Mr. STEVENS. What would be the effect o

w

pt

inside?

Colonel HODGES. Water pressure on the i

i

m

would add stability by pressing down outside 

t

in preventing an upward movement of the 

I

the dam as above proposed by the hydrauptw

comes gradually on the foundation; there is n

l

t

on it, as was thrown on it when this toe was b

tb

weight on the inside removed by pumping ou

tw

T

cessive layers of material rise almost imper

tw

borne material settles, and no sudden load can t

c

portion of the foundation with proper precau

Mr. STEVENS. Now, under those circumstay

that have or its,wards. not fill size ovr have mended. make crest even Colonel to Mr. Colonel would in the know, to if stand planned it. a below theno the STEVENS. bring there defect cavity, be it The HODGES. HODGES. whole Of in and succeed appar the mended be the it, the course would slump what a any water that secion Now, crest slidedry, after in It would if defect it afterwards, appear shouldwould it would should of mending the level, if will the will of the some slump happen? the appear in completion be the say have probably duringam occur the defectam sfer it.water that, was andto do project, during and subside win construc

be after so would should having be of would a compso the the it? cava or thth

y

pbtliitrtwywvtwlwbbuttbtfW m
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. STEVENS. Are you acquainted with the ma

at the places where the greatest weakness occurs?

Colonel HODGES. I have seen the borings, and I 

brought up from test pits.

Mr. STEVENS. And you know the reasonable 

your experience, of any slides that might occur in 

Colonel HODGES. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. And you are preparing to guard 

as, from your experience, has shown exist in tha

Colonel HODGES. Yes; I. confess that I expect 

struction of the dam, to a certain extent. I think 

human probability that we shall not have them, b

is that they v; ill be local affairs, and can be dea

come.

Mr. STEVENS. So you feel you could guard agai

large subsidence even after the dam was compl

into the lake?

Colonel HODGES. I believe that a very reasona

occur vxithout endangering the dam. I do not t

against it. I do not think we can foresee v hen 

In my opinion, if that dam is built and made to 

gets against it, there is no probability of any 

afterwards.

Mr. STEVENS. You have been somewhat famil

similar nature in other places?

Colonel HODGES. Only through literature; I ha

earth dams, except cofferdams.

Mr. STEVENs. Are you familiar with the constru

and that sort of thing?

Colonel HODGES. Yes.

Mr. STEVENS. There has been criticism that lock 

isms could not be provided adequate to handle t

of such large construction. What have you to sa

Colonel HODGES. I have no doubt as to the po

In fact, e have done it in cases of structures a

parable size, and it has been done in other par

cases of structures and vessels of nearly the same

to disaster. ships of The aster times. The out. through %ith Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. such the large gates gates crashing in STEVENS. STEVENS. vessels. STEVENS. STEVENS. cases? There a cases HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. gates flight and of thatrough has of ships of But Is atThere Has vessels nevr immense locks? there Sault The Of Sips have not any thecourse has locks beenany of Ste. not have flight been shipbeen locks size? danger arenything perhaps Marie therstruck damaged, of that not criicism of locks. in that have is you lck following the approachidanger, large, size? but What knowbeen gates that mechathe buts
42 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel HODGEs. Not by crashing through t

Mr. STEVENS. So that the criticism of eng

not substantiated by experience or history of 

Colonel HODGES. I should say not. It is a 

present danger in everything. It must be gu

Mr. STEVENS. Will you state how many sa

put into these locks-just as a matter of recor

Colonel HODGEs. At the head of each flig

might call two safety devices. The one is a 

lower mitering gates, which is intended as a b

the lower gates being struck by a vessel en

above. The other is above the upper gates, 

swinging bridge type, which can be put into 

the waterway gradually, and which is inten

case, through any disaster, the gates are cu

established through the lock from the upper l

Mr. STEVENS. So far as history and expe

information, the last device can be reasonably 

disaster?

Colonel HODGES. It is the best we know o

years at the American Sault a movable dam 

described, which is now temporarily out of use

but it was never called into play.

Mr. STEVENS. Was it brought into play at 

three or four years ago?

Colonel HODGES. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. Those lock gates were open

gushed out?

Colonel HODGES. The upper gate was clo

movable dam very frequently, and operated 

never in the face of the current. There is e

that it would work properly in the face of a c

Mr. STEVENS. Just return to the dam cons

From your preliminary statement, you hav

experience in the construction of dams on r

rents of water?

Colonel Mr. HODGES. I have had considerable e

dams with pletely, [laughter]. danger words? not chances importance mizing Colonel Mr. Colonel Colonel Mr. believe the which STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. it as have and washing and HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. much exists completely there three benguarding What That And as of without is reduced or I Just I the possible-that a designed believe the four is isstructure eliminate against dam? that; to your your skillome to years say, not. zero. one minimize. it experience, of danger experience the in as that afterward your that would muchexistence possibilino I or profethe thoweas yoenthi
PANAMA CANAL. 

Colonel HODGES. Yes.

Mr. STEVENS. In your long and varied experienc

your'official duty to point out defects which woul

the project you are engaged upon, whenever the

anyway?

Colonel HODGES. Grave defects; yes.

Mr. STEVENS. Would you conceive it your duty

a condition?

Colonel HODGES. I should, if I thought anythin

Mr. STEVENS. You would conceive that a duty 

Colonel HODGES. Unquestionably.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is the character of the 

dam in the flight of locks on the Pacific side?

Colonel HODGES. They have a very good fo

foundation for the locks; and if you go down far 

surface you will find rock under the dam.

Mr. RICHARDSON. How far down? What is t

you go down in the first dam?

Colonel HODGES. There is a lift of 30 feet.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is the depth of water o

Colonel HODGES. About 25 feet pressure.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is the length of that da

Colonel HODGES. Call it about 1,300 feet. 

exactly.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Now the next dam. What i

the Pacific slope?

Colonel HODGES. Sixty feet, allowing for mean 

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is the depth?

Colonel HODGES. It would be about that.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is the character of the 

Colonel HODGES. The dam itself rests on the su

but the lock rests on the rock.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Have you, as an engineer, th

foundation of Gatun dam as you have got in the 

two dams I have just asked about?

Colonel HODGES. The foundation on the Pacific 

the Mr. Gatun foundation. in If foundation dam structure, dam.s ture, Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. you thedoes yes. about RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. foundation mean Have HODGES. HODGES. not HODGES. it HODGES. of which is the you rest theincorrect. foundation, as of Gatun on I I Yes, It have In Why? And And do I much Why? the rock mean is not thebetter sir. Gatun youu dam, just and faith quite foundation, the it have get asked? is the rock. as safety dam, grasp in correct; a you not other the better for the ofave the safety, no; thewo themaning if foundat

same youin foundo reasas thfmr
44 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel HoDGES. It is the natural characte

Mr. EscH. You have built structures on the 

rivers?

Colonel HODGES. Yes.

Mr. Esci. How would those structures co

of the proposed structure at Gatun?

Colonel HODGES. They were very much sm

parable. As I said, I thought that one of 

was absolutely safe, but it was washed aroun

rock foundation on the Kentucky River.

Mr. EscH. Did you state the width of the 

walls of the rock?

Colonel HODGEs. I did not state; however, 

complete pressure can be brought against it.

Mr. Esci-i. Now, the water face of those w

vertical?

Colonel HODGES. It will be vertical except 

Mr. Escn. And the earth side will, of cour

at the base?

Colonel HODGES. Yes; by steps, to 8 feet at 

Mr. EsC. Now, when the lock is empty, th

the lateral thrust of the earth. Would that 

the lock wall upon the natural surface below?

Colonel HODGES. Undoubtedly.

Mr. EsCH. Would that continued pressur

throw the wall out of plumb?

Colonel HODGEs. No; not if properly constr

Mr. Escn. And you have observed the know

Colonel HoDGES. We have.

Mr. Escn. And what is the width of the 

wall?

Colonel HODGES. Sixty feet. I will qualify 

the lock chamber where there is a widening o

Mr. EscH. And what is the width at the to

Colonel HODGES. Sixty feet, vertical sides, 

masonry. There is a space left for back fillin

Mr. Escn. You say you do not anticipate m

sure, less ing from upward locks? sure to orColonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel be, lowest up. than on theas might Escn.Escn. Escn. the pressure testified upwarthe dam? HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGEs. middle-lock there AndConceding pressure If this pressure on to more not I No. On There danger by the should be onthe floor on Major tht pressure floor the of will theupper is from water not lwer-lock there as of middle Sbert,be significant be the coming lcks-unquthe pressure on was certain first ground the than would this floor up floolcas of on frbd
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Escu. From the lake level?

Colonel HODGES. I do not think it possible.

Mr. Escn. Do you think 3,000 feet of the natural 

will be sufficient to retard, if not practically elim

pressure?

Colonel HODGES. I feel confident of that.

Mr. Escn. Unless there be such seams of such ch

sions that there would be a natural channel under

Colonel HODGES. If there is an underground stre

undoubtedly discover the fact in the course of con

Mr. Escn. Do you believe that this cement curt

will be sufficient to cut off most of that underg

Colonel HODGES. I think it will cut it off to a 

entirely; but I think we have a means of judging 

yet been touched upon. When the excavation for 

made, it will cut off that flow as effectively, so far 

ditions are concerned, as the wall itself, and we ca

of the lock after that excavation has been made.

Mr. Escn. Do you think that would be a demo

Colonel HODGES. I think it would be a very stron

shall not have an 85-foot pressure against it, but 

see if any natural channels of any magnitude exi

water down from the hills.

Mr. BARTLETT. I call your attention to a state

paper in which Mr. Bates said it was impossible 

locks and have large ships come in without damagi

you read that?

Colonel HODGES. Yes; I read that.

Mr. BARTLETT. Now, is it true that you have app

by which that danger is reduced to a minimum?

Colonel HODGES. Yes; we have reduced it so far 

. Mr. BARTLETT. One of those, as I understand i

the ships to be brought in by the person in charge 

You place people in charge of the locks to conduct s

Colonel HODGES. We can do so. We shall provi

that can be done.

Mr. ESCH. Do they provide for a gate that opera

way. lock? probably can when dicular Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel be youESCH. EscH.cn BARTLETT. BARTLETT. run to 118 HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGEs. it. intend out Where How Can feet. across to that These Can deep? They Run It Oh, open is the is you be thelngth yes; are it axishe ar done chamber recess give back very theof lock? without of me the into in largest large Ohiothe the lock? the with thegate gates? River weight any wall in gate reference What thate weakeof lockchamof wothe rudt
46 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel HODGEs. The largest leaves of the 

about 500 tons each, the miter gates beino 

hinges and close against the miter sills. Tta

leaf, and there are 84 leaves on the whole can

Mr. CUSHMAN. When you say a leaf, do you 

Colonel HODGES. One of the moving parts 

Mr. CUSHMAN. Then there are two of those 

Colonel HODGES. Yes.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is the pressure of t

dam, 85 feet high? What is the pressure per 

0& Colonel HODGES. Down at the bottom a

p

the square foot.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Is that pressure depend

water covers?

Colonel HODGES. No; it depends purely up

Mr. RICHARDSON. The greater area it cover

pressure?

Colonel HODGES. Not in the slightest degre

were only an acre in extent and 85 feet deep i

unit pressure against the dam.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And the area covered fr

174 square miles?

Colonel HODGES. Approximately"that.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And if it was 274 squa

p

would not be increased?

Colonel HODGES. No.

Mr. EscH. You feed the water of the locks fW

the advantage?

Colonel HODGES. The valves can be operat

if the culverts were placed along the axis of 

Mr. BARTLETT. Can yOu give us some idea, 

or unlooked for accident, with the means at 

take to complete the locks and dam?

Colonel HODGES. Our estimate is January 

be six years from now.

Mr. BARTLETT. Is that a reasonable estimat

Colonel HODGES. I think it is; I see no r

should ownf and forebay-would sure Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Mr. Colonel Colonel surface. each steam? due ESCH. Escn. Escn. KENNEDY. KENNEDY. like tosquare HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. HODGES. toheir As There At Will have you there what foot height You Against ships is As No; a Yes. They figured no above little be speed? fast gave entirely. danger be we much are aslonger, the able can that, would the they not less gates of obviate amount to itwashing so like. pressure but have go would deep; of thenroug

any lessof the be on agthpdppp
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. KENNEDY. Due to the height of water again

Colonel HoDGEs. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. That could not exist at any time 

Colonel HODGEs. Oh, yes; those gates will be a

Mr. KENNEDY. Then the water would be mainta

Colonel HODGES. That is quite correct, in the 

but we have to figure them to hold the pressure wh

Mr. KENNEDY. You would want it strong enoug

In the operation of the lock

Colonel HODGES. In the operation it would be 3

and 60 feet for the gates below.

Mr. KENNEDY. And the burden for holding th

60 feet dilfl :wce would be divided up between two 

Colonel HODGES. Not necessarily. You see the 

upper and intermediate locks may have, in ordin

full 60 feet against them, because their lock may b

below is reduced to the low level to let a vessel in. 

lift in the intermediate locks.

Mr. KENNEDY. The average pressure against a 

dam would be very much less than the amount y

Colonel HODGES. Very much less; I gave the m

Mr. KENNEDY. You gave that square foot that 

against it?

Colonel HODGES. Yes.

Mr. EsCH. Will this partition gate itself divide 

compartments 400 feet and 600 feet long, respect

section at the same end of each series of locks?

Colonel HODGES. Not always. The 400-foot 

upper end of the upper locks; then comes the 

There is really no theoretical difference; you can c

and get the same economy of water. It is a littl

to have the 600-foot section of the second lock co

in communication with the 600-foot section of th

practicable, but you can not do it in all cases.

Mr. STEVENS. There is no greater danger in any 

than in the Soo locks, as to vessels plowing throug

* Colonel HODGEs. Not as much. We have mor

the fet. some In model? nection Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel the Soo. time; STEVENS. STEVENS. Admiral CUSHMAN. CUSHMAN. construction some That HODGEs. HODGES. HODGES. HODGEs. yes. time Rousseau has And What We Do inno Much The Oh, I of the you sawthe was these buffer is yes. biggest progress the ships knows heavier, propose a going relief locks, beam gate. will more under to of map to and do be of the put construct our about you heavier hardeof constructiwork? ithe newest ever up that dam tohrto bua h
48 PANAMA CANAL.

STATEMENT OF CIVIL ENGINEER H. H. RO

Mr. STEVENS. What is your name and pres

connection with the commission?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. H. H. Rousseau; I am a 

Commission, and also assistant to the chief en

Mr. STEVENS. What has been your professi

rience along the line of these duties?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. I was graduated at the R

Institute, Troy, N. Y., in 1891, with the de

After that I practiced civil engineering for 

kinds of engineering construction, particularly 

was engaged on the design and manufacture 

principal assistant engineer of the Pittsburg Br

eral years. In 1898 I was commissioned a civil 

States Navy after examination, and since that 

tioned at various navy-yards on the constructio

coaling plants, dry docks, and other public w

Department, Washington, in the Bureau of Ya

on duty in the Navy Department, from 1899 

other duties, I was in general charge of the de

Mr. STEVENS. Where?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Those being designed at th

Island, Philadelphia, and Portsmouth navy-y

detailed for duty at the Mare Island Navy-Y

charge of the public improvements in that ya

struction of a dry dock, the design of which I ha

and also the improvement of the channel, dre

cofferdam construction. In December, 1906, 

of the Bureau of Yards and Docks of the Navy 

of all navy-yard improvements under the Secret

position I retained until I resigned in order to 

member of the Isthmian Canal Commission, in 

Mr. STEVENS. When did you come down her

Mr. ROUSSEAU. I have been down here since 

Mr. STEVENS. Are you familiar with the fou

of ticability the have is of that where placed stnd have dockpumped betterMr. the factors has had than to ROUSSEAU. ROUSSEAU. STEVENS. Gatun are dry ganite directly as withstand. out charge and better of on docks regards of locks the a except fators safety was on lock, How, of foundation of solidame The Yes, blasted and sustaining for the because of The for of in material the granite. dam? sir. navy general safety the your examination service nay? out is public a havepower at professional and of lock on character the The these is, which Please been works the normally than Portsmou

perhaps, pressures or concretlocks built. the that give of tharepaexpGa ca
PANAMA CANAL. 

pressure is downward, whereas a dry dock is comp

every time a vessel is docked, which subjects it t

upward pressure of the water on the bottom of th

dock, which has to be balanced by the weight of 

contents.

Mr. STEVENs. What are the principal elements 

considered as affecting or determining the thicknes

a concrete dry dock?

Mr. RoussE Au. The width of the dock on the 

water to the bottom of the floor, and the alternati

and downward pressures. The strain increases as 

width of the floor and. is proportional to the depth 

Mr. STEvENs. Now, with the dock empty, if you 

ward pressure for, say, several days, and then fi

repeating the process at regular intervals, is there 

velop any weakness in tine, if this is kc pt up?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. It has been learned by experi

investigation that concrete, steel, and other mater

f

repeated or alternating pressures much more readi

jected to a constant stress in one direction. This i

opment of innumerable and minute flaws or defects

of a structure subjected to these conditions proper 

has to be made. With this provision such a struct

safe and have as long life as a structure under a con

Mr. STEVENS. Have there been any accidents o

weakness of the.foundations of naval docks?

Mr. ROUSSEAu. The old type, the so-called "Sim

was of wood instead of masonry. It was subject to 

of life and strength of timber construction. These 

sides, backed with clay puddle, and clay puddle b

floor. 'hey were not designed to be water-tight. 

was led to a sump. Here was no upward pressure 

the seepage water was pumped out as it leaked in

type of dock are being built. There have been no f

docks due to the upward pressure. ihe only flaw

oped in the concrete have been minor ones, due to 

ature, causing contraction cracks, and, with contin

freezing and thawing, some spalling of the surface. 

locks an Gatun a ing. of walls, lined samejured docks without actionnd lock Mr.theideal dry 70178-PAN will In masonry at incanal. in STEVENS. buildings etc., of locks one1898, the dock injury. sea not causing forrom vicinity time San water be the of Experience dry the at CAN--09-4 subject What the Francisco so-called earthquakes undergoing the underse dock damage United of Mare is of San to the there pressure with concrete. "Mare any earthquake Francisco Island Statesgreatest amouning repairs. has dry of was Island these has been docks Navy-Yard Navy? uninjured, The water passed been Likewise elements, of advanced earthquakdoes possibilitto 1906, unfavopressu$300,0throunot and as anthsa
50 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. ROUSSEAU. On the newer docks the 

sure is due to a head or depth of 55 feet; on 

to less than 55 feet.

Mr. STEVENS. Do you give any considerat

sure, caused by seams or anything of that s

the docks?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. The docks are all design

pressure of the water, with the dock em- ty. 

is reenforced with steel. To reduce the flow 

si'le, and the danger of erosion, it is customary 

of sheet iling across the entrance to the dock

the concrete of the floor. Sometimes this w

around the dock. When concrete is laid on 

Gatun, the adhesion between the concrete a

exert a powerful "holding-down " influence, a

upward pressure of water arising from seam

rock no general or wides- read u- lifting wa

exist under the whole bottom. Should addi

concrete floor be desired, it could be easily 

bolts cemented into the underlying rock an

concrete floor. The water pressure under do

recorded by means of gauges attached to - i 

and extending down to material underneath.

Mr. STEVENS. Have there been any acci

pressure?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. None whatever.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the size of the lar

liable to use these Gatun lacks?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. The largest vessels being 

ment of 25,000 tons. The dimensions have 

but will probably not exceed 650 feet I y 9

largest vessels of the navy built or building a

inches by 27 feet.

Mr. STEVENS. How much greater would th

be than the larger type of Soo freighter that 

locks, which is about~600 feet long and carr

iron ore and upward? venience vessel? heavy gurds be with and delicate almost Mr. considered undocking a ROUSSEAU. ROUSSEAU. ROUSSEAU. STEVENS. STEVENS. ROUSSEAU. battle STEVENS. STEVENS. ROUSSEAU. 625-foot eliminate the operation. and danger ships delay. a them frighter? danger; How DesDo So that The It Yes, should trough With is the you in danger? does its battle shorter. sir;. at ordinary experience length be apprehend dry would these if To much ship te dock, largest pass increase locks? channel be would and lessthrough which of looked any battle than usua

navabe the is dai
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Escn. What is the greatest width across t

f

o

d

dock?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Ninety-six feet for the Puget S

d

i

ing the lower wide altar; 80 feet and less for the o

d

T

entrance is of greater width; it runs up to abou

f

t

larger docks. rThe docks are closed by floatingg ga

c

instead of the miter gates used on the canal locks

Mr. EscH. The canal locks are to be 110 feet wi

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Yes, and have a usable length o

f

Mr. Escn. In no case, then, where you have s

d

w

width of 80 feet and upward, have you had any d

Mr. ROUSSEAU. None whatever.

F Mr. ESCH. Even where the dock has been b

o

p

material?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. There has been no difficulty fro

u

p

in any case.

Mr ESCH. If you were to build such a floor, w

y

mu

of the principle of the inverted arch for its constr

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Yes; a concrete slab is used, 14 f

t

ft

largest docks, which acts as an arch in resisting u

p

Mr. Escn. In any of the docks have any fissur

o

c

d

oped in the concrete material?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Yes; due to contraction, caus

b

lv

tions in temperature.

[ Mr. Escn. Well, that is eliminated on the Isthm

--Mr. RoussEAU. Yes; the temperature of the w

wp

never vary more than 100.

Mr. Escn. And you anticipate that the only c

f

of the floor of a lock here would be due to imperfe

m

Mr. ROUSSEAU. The concrete of the locks can b

m

in amount and strength for the purpose without d

Mr. KNOWLAND. Is there any appreciable dange

f

t

u

thrust of the water under the floor when the lock i

f

ow

Mr. ROUSSEAU. No, sir; there is no upward p

t

i

downward.

Mr. KNOWLAND. So any dangr of that sort w

oe

during going siderations. on was matter the calculations Great in Mr. The Mr. Mr. this a practice about very around ROUsSE RSSAU.OUE Lakes; Esc. ESCH. CLIXIRMAN. Escn. ROUSSEAU. construction in canal? 1906, thorough three were in The Whatould What curves? about U. other and ship based? It No, That Bord Would The was investigation radius the or 600 itwould. canals. lengths sir. be when would largest plans the feet of it possible would maximum necessarily Consulting in the forsubmitted depend I vessels length. think of a lock be tospeed the accommodarequired upon was the length observed be requiremeEngineerwith of minimempty duringthe 9 thaof miby sptc9vcrotrwboorphowtwtot9v
52 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. ROUSsEAU. Yes, and 1,000 feet, which 

locls. The length of locks limits the size of 

width and alignment.

Mr. Escr. In going through the Culebra cb

difficulty in navigating a vessel 900 feet in le

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Not any more than in nav

size through any other 300-foot channel hav

a maximum deflection angle of six degrees, s

places in Culebra cut where the canal chang

points of deflection the additional excavatio

b

permit the turns being made without danger

Mr. EscH. As you say, of course the danger 

u

speed?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Yes.

Mr. Escn. What would be the rate of spee

Mr. ROUSSEAU. About 41- knots an hour fo

size.

The CHAIRMAN. At what rate of speed co

beam enter a lock 110 feet wide?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. Not over 100 feet a minut

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the dire

water?

Mr. RoussEAU. Some would go on either si

u

neath. Such a vessel would probably not dra

would be not less than 45 feet in the lock. I h

navy enter a dry dock with not more than a 

either side. In still water, with no strong 

vessel under such circumstances is very easil

The CHAIRMAN. The flow of water would 

b

than the vessel?

Mr. ROUSSEAU. There will be no movemen

lock gates are opened. The vessel just goes i

water. The currents and eddies in the locks 

emptying them.

Mr. STEVENS. You have been in the navy a

official course of business with your superio

r

these plans of the Board of Consulting Engineh

come you would concerning and, with struction on ay would officers? Mr. the should defect the in to ROUSSEAU. you STEVENS. ROUSSEAU. conceive commission you fact, work. of conceive it?that conceive this for this execution. it public he So So Ihas to Yes, far of regards to should tat to be be the as always work be sir; his your those I Navy fatal consider am If as I duty are you would. duty aware, fatal of been to Department sures to find, the itnowho the report my thatis informiexecutor the idea duty are shois so exitprprhhh
PANAMA CANAL. 5

STATEMENT OF MAJ. D. D. GAILLARD, U. S

A

Mr. STEVENS. Will you please give your name a

o

c

tion with the canal work?

Major GAILLARD. D. D. Gaillard; member of th

I

C

Commission, and division engineer of the central de

from Pedro Miguel to Gatun. The Culebra cut h

bim

charge since April, 1907.

Mr. STEVENS. So you have charge of what is po

k

the "Culebra cut?"

Major GAILLARD. Yes; and also of what was f

k

the Chagres division.

Mr. STEVENS. There are two questions about wh

w

dtb

informed briefly concerning your work on the cu

To

excavation, the rate of excavation, the probabiliofi

and, second, the danger of slides by which those vhoe

side might slide into the cut, thus imperiling the w

Major GAILLARD. There had been excavated in tcd

sion 31,000,000 cubic yards up to January 1, 1909. Trt

be excavated in the central division after this date c

yards. Our rate of excavation in the central divistp

time is 18,000,000 cubic yards per annum, or 1,50

cy

per month. If that rate were maintained we would fte

tion in a little over three years, but as the bottom o

t

pb

comes narrower we can not maintain that rate. Iwp

take from four to five years to complete the excaitc

tral division.

Mr. STEVENS. Will not the increased depth increatp

of injury from possible slides?

Major GAILLARD. I think not, because all slides 

f

e

have been superficial. They have been formed fro

tl

o

clay, which varies anywhere from 15 to 40 feet in dt

top layer of clay has ever troubled us so far. We hhif

slides, aggregating very close to 1,000,000 cubic yTw

ones are now quiet. We have removed the Cucar

t

Paraiso slide; they were the two largest by far. T

o

h

also trouble-the There of slides from havework reason possibly grass my toward Mr.ajor that develop slides been overdeveloped after of STEVENS. a to has theplaces earth large GAILLARD. anticipate them,as removed, May been canal; superficial one or mass passed. on no which 1 removed. What opposite rock? of 106,000 top, new danger In ofthe so we danger until slides earth Culebra The slides that present will thecubic of worst they in get Whitehouse about newow may below the yards cut year quickly get ones slides we clay 20 I the a will areexpect think havee growth feet top due here lvel Yard, involvebe surfacbeen in toonly the in whein of inthnrocLCihftfpttWrAotwndbtwwdl
54 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. STEVENS. You furnish some material fo

Major GAILLARD. Yes; from three to five 

amounting to from 1,000 to 1,500 cubic yards

Mr. STEVENS. Can you furnish all that wil

you are informed, in the course of the constru

Major GAILLARD. We can.

Mr. STEVENS. What danger may we apprehe

Bas Obispo ILiver in your section?

Major GAILLARD. I think none. I believe th

work has passed with the close of the recent 

complete the Bas Obispo diversion about Ma

wet season begins. That will cut off the wate

the canal between Gold Hill and the Chagres 

Mr. STEVENS. So those two questions I aske

ered as answered; first, that the danger of slid

nated as the work progresses.

Major GAILLARD. I do not think we will be 

much in the future as in the past. Slides have 

by us as offering any real obstacles to the con

Mr. STEVENS. I am sneaking of the general 

the plan; do you apprehend that those great 

cut?

Major GAILLARD. No, sir; I believe that fea

on facts.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you bored and given i

possibility of that?

Major GAILLARD. There have been borings 

line of the canal throughout the entire section 

depth below sea level. These borings I have 

the boring is a true sample, as I have reason t

does not differ materially from that you -gentle

in the cut.

Mr. STEVENs. What will be the height from 

the canal to the highest portion in the cut?

Major GAILLARD. There will be a place on 

side slope of the canal that will be 494 feet ab

canal.

Mr. Major STEVENS. Is there any danger of slide f

of French locks you the opening experience? sioner I From work Thenwas Mr.ajor Mr.ajor a work very cand STEVENS. there from STEVENS. two in on twenty-five of GAMLLARD. GAILLARD. GAILLARD. hard in complete dam the the and the our I February, went trap Mexican Florida canal one-half section, Then Did rock be that years as None I, in I finished? feel assistant the askPedro 1892, which 1915. district boundary years part si. ago. whatever, you second practically of toMiguel stands at I in on for the graduated the Dcember, regard question survey. river apparentlfour wok Engineer vertically to certain Gatunto and and youas we In at1h
PANAMA CANAL. 

fication work at Fort Monroe, Va. Early in 1896 

the Washington Aqueduct and raised the dam at 

F

the Potomac River, and remained on that duty u

of the war ivith S- ain, in May, 1898. I served in 

and Cuba until May, 1899. Then for four months 

design the substructures for the gatehouses on th

N

Tunnel in Washington. I was assistant to the Engin

of the District of Columbia until February, 190

charge of river and harbor work on Lake Superior u

J

I was then detailed on duty with the General Sta

May, 1903, and with the exception of a few mont

r

duty with the General Staff until March, 1907. 

Cuba with the General Staff at the time of the dis

1906, and was appointed to duty on the Isthmus 

Cuba in February, 1907.

Mr. STEvENS. When did you come here?

Major GAILLARD. I arrived here March 12, 19

Goethals.

Mr. STEVENS. From all of your long and var

engineering and military matters, if you found o

defect in the present plans that you conceive wou

or imperil the success of the plans for building th

you conceive would be your official duty?

Major GAILLARD. My official duty would be to r

to Colonel Goethals.

Mr. HUBBARD. I would like to know whether an

r

h

been made at any time ?

Major GAILLARD. I have made no such repor

h

spoken to him of slides, etc., but have had nothing 

vital or actually hurtful to report.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the height of the summit o

sea level?

Major GAILLARD. Six hundred and sixty-two fee

Mr. STEVENS. You said a while ago 494 feet wou

b

h

point; that means not 494 feet above sea level, b

4

bottom of the canal as it will be when completed?

Major GAILLARD. Yes, sir.

we abo exc formation? hard the make remain on of ut? * MIr Major. Mr. Majorr. the that-you have vation?a. firmness t trap CUSHMAN. the STEVENS. CUSHMAN. banks HUBBARD. 4,000,000 nearly GAILLARD. GATILLARD. GAILLARD. taken slope rock.as ofvertical, think not they out theThrough How remain How YOu more From The I 31;000,000 material. there rest? much apprehend longlid Say as than French the a . the be 3 will the did on Culebra taken 1 Frnch Wherethe yards faces it be 2 on took no to require French 1; no out. a trouble cut of i. up 45-degree left outhetrouble e., the what tohe take 45 them. aboutmateriaJanuterractheredgrFrenout is frosl
56 PANAMA CANAL.

Major GAILLARD. The old French compa

until 1889; then the new company worked c

way until 1904-from 1881 to 1904.

Mr. KENNEDY. The Panama Railroad is to 

Major GAILLARD. Yes-on the east side 

or berm, 10 feet above the surface of the w

Mr. KENNEDY. A berm will prevent the s

the top of the banks into the prism of the c

Major GAILLARD. Yes; it will help to cat

falling down the slope.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you contemplate makin

the cut, aside from the one which is to accom

Major GAILLARD. Yes; we have to in st

berms serve as roadbeds to reach the differen

Mr. KENNEDY. And a slide of earth from 

Major GAILLARD. Would be caught somew

very large one that would overrun the berms

Mr. KENNEDY. The slides occur where the 

towards the prism?

Major GAILLARD. Yes; and nearly always 

overlies a white, soapy rock, almost like 

gets between the rock and the clay-the slid

It never extends below the bottom of the cl

Mr. STEVENS. You have not yet found an

stratum of rock over another?

Major GAILLARD. None vxhatever; always 

or hardpan.

(The committee thereupon took a recess un

AFTER RECESS.

STATEMENT OF RON. H. A. GUDGER, CH

" .ZONE JUDICIARY.

Mr. Esc. How long have you been on the 

Judge GUDGER. I - as here eleven years on 

chief ber, tohe before? court a Mr. Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judge Mr. supreme Judge the supreme last. justice? on Esca.cir Escn. 24th Escn. GUDGER. GUDGEr. GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. the court, of court.ircuit. Were In You The You Fbruary, what v organization Yes, controlled Yes, I Not have you erewas capacities Am connected made, on sir. recently consul-general 1905, I the right? by then, Isthmus; then of have three at been the associate all I you crts, justicewas here appoifrom in actmthwjjjy
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Escu. The annual report shows the amo

these courts; first, that the supreme court dispo

17 sessions held by the court. I take it that that 

Judge GUDGER. But that is not in the last year

Mr. Esc. It is in the year covered by the rep

Jude GUDGER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Esc. I a ill be glad if you vwill supplement 

a report shov ing i hat has taken place since then.

Judge GUDGER. I have a complete record for th

the 1st day of this month, of all business transact

Mr. Escn. Have you it at hand?

Judge GtDGER. Yes, sir. I have here a repo

Shall I read it?

Mr. EsCH. I will ask you to give the substance 

will than ask you to file it.

(Full report appended hereto.)

Judge GUDGER. In the first circuit court, in th

year, we had 6 cases pending; cases filed during 

cases disposed of were 84, leaving 10 pending

Mr. EsCo. You are speaking now of work in 

courts?

Judge GuDmEr. Yes, sir.

Mr. Esci. Go on with the work in the second c

Judge GUDGER. Judge Duran was judge of the 

In the second circuit court, of which I was judge, 

the year we had 42 cases pending; cases filed durin

civil and 253 criminal; cases settled 327, leaving an 

of 68 cases unsettled, but really amounting to 3 c

Mr. Escn. The cases having been dismissed?

Judge GUDGE. No; but some of them shoul

missed. During December, 1908, the number of n

and not at issue was 23; criminal cases -filed and 

probate cases in the court, for which the time of se

9; civil cases tried in December, 1908, and judgm

2; criminal cases where parties absconded, 2; cri

defendant is in penitentiary on other charges, 2

against them which we overlooked, but which sh

business the account pending disposed pending costsase csdiposed ruptcy), sive there settled criminal. but supreme end there of hadon towere during those off atnd 3, hand settle done of of, are not making I the thee during 19 except have court, 2 not some the in been at publication, cases moreland beginning year the at beginning year, no the a during probate for issue. paid, title filed total pending 28 first, daa yer, final and were under ofn making of the second, as etc. In 98 of 15; cases the order that 65 pending, at toyear cases year,the leaving andrbitration year: the In date which a under third and of were the leaving total 72; probate beginning filed 1908, but 20 third on supreme casesircuit, could filed cession of the during not award, is a cases judicwhic4. net durifiled as not 1st doof uncfA (
58 PANAMA CANAL.

cases settled during the year, 515; cases pe

notification I have made, 108.

.Mr. EscH. Does the statement discrimina

criminal cases?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir; I have it discrim

The total of costs collected in the first circuit 

of criminal costs, fines, marriage licenses, and 

the officers are not only circuit judges but als

j

the clerk is registrar of deeds; that is, he issue

records deeds in each circuit court.

Mr. Eson. The clerk to the circuit court?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir; the clerk of the cir

of each one. The number of marriage licenses 

Mr. EscH. They are issued by the judges or 

Judge GUDGER. By the clerks at $2 each. 

and deeds recorded in all the circuits was 24

show how each one of these circuits compared.

Mr. EsCH. Can you give an idea of the perc

criminal cases?

Judge GUDGER. Yes; they are about equal t

Mr. Escn. What is the nature of the civil li

Judge GUDGER. We find but very few larg

you call cases of magnitude. The jurisdiction 

up to $100, while that of the supreme court 

$10,000. I have just finished such a case in w

for was $35,000, and the judgment entered wa

Mr. EscH. How many days was the supreme 

Judge GIGER. I can not answer that; I d

of that kind.

Mr. EsCH. Then the statement does not sho

the supreme court or circuit courts were in sess

Judge GUDGER. No, sir; it does not; but 

mately, the supreme court was in actual sess

during the year; I think about that would be a 

meet four times a rear.

Mr. Escn. At what places do the circuit cou

Judge GUDGER. The supreme court meets 

pened supreme below appealnd judicial Cristobal. thate Mr. Judge Judge Mr. Judge Mr.r. second propriety half EscH. EsCH. Escn. is only EscH. from court affirmed? GUDGER. court, GUDGER. GUDGER. of circuit one the the InThe Listening In also of composed circuit the whole the or havingppeal meets court? Moe ThatYes, twice. event event court, business to sir; is than but here, lies of not of theof three by one practically a a what half. the only figures satisfactory divided an icircuit circuit second the understandiwould practically you circuit court, courtfrom judgesyou at have plan EmtsiI 
PANAMA CANAL. 

Judge GUDGER. There are arguments favorable to 

point-that is, the one-judge system-but there ar

against it.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is that?

Judge GUDGER. It might save expense. It wo

b

that alone being considered, but there are views of t

would not be beneficial. My reason for that statem

it

judge could live only at one of the three placebo, an

p

wanted a writ of habeas corpus, injunctions, or anpr

the signature of a judge,. would have to go to his r

t

I am speaking of it now froi a public standpoint.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Would the one-judge system b

t

expedite all the business of the public?

Judge GUDGER. Yes: in that case there would b

The public justice would be attended to just as weyh

one-judge system, with a one-clerk system, there 

b

objection in regard to the registration of deeds.

Mr. RICHARDSON. To be met in the same way?

Judge GUDGER. They would have to go to one plac

t

tion of records, etc.; but that is a matter I feel I h

t

with. It might affect me personally, and tl erefo

an opinion. I will state frankly that tie system w

h

u

the conditions we have, is the best and cheapest syst

taking the dispatch of business on one side and 

t

other.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Assuming that the work in the Z

tj

work, is not to increase, I wish you would say w

could be discharged by one judge; that is, whether he ht

to attend properly to it?

Judge GUDGER. I am thoroughly satisfied that thbt

Zone will not increase, and, so far as trial of cases i

one judge can attend to all the business.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Does the second circuit court 

E

Judge GUDGErn. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. How far distant is it from An

Judge GUDGER. Approximately 12 miles.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And from Colon?

Judge Mr. RICHARDSON. GUDGER. It So is 35 miles. travel sitting Empire, Empire? tohe cannot Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judge Colonel start, one-judge KNOwLAND. KNOwLAND. IiICHARDSON. would at say GUDGER. which GUDGER. it GUDGER. Emp OOETHALS. is as be only system-as ire; I to 35 imagine That Well, that. a I that And How miles? It distance have Five wculd is, the isf long in it you never cnts the if mest fare, would greatest the of would be getreatest about gold as rural how paid headquarters a be. convenient itrain per distance much? districts one a take distance fare mile; at hour to the ontrav

of herone ananimtthtjttytr3U
60 PANAMA CANAL.

Judge GUDGER. I do not think so. The 

cases being sent to the States from these cour

tion cf a large number of appeals. Whether 

sons coming here periodically from the States 

Mr. lICHARDsON. We will come to that lat

Mr. Escui. Suppose there were one circuit ju

for appeal whereby a judge is designated to 

year for the purpose of hearing appeals, woul

Jndge GUDGEr. That would give relief.

Mr. EscH. You would not regard it as. des

the legal business of the zone should be broug

with the legal business of the United States?

Judge GUDGER. I would not regard that as 

is that in all civil matters here we have a mix

portion or which is Panamanian. We have 

Panama, and in order that they should be dec

tage it seems to me that a judge should stu

seems to me that lie would have to live here 

which would be better than coming here onc

done, the system might not be hurtful.

Mr. Escm. The system of which you speak 

the civil law?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EsCH. That prevails in Louisiana, and 

necessary by the circuit court of appeals whi

Judge GUDGER. Presumably so; but I have 

Mr. Escn. That being the case, would ther

the plan ,f the appeal cf that particular cirj

more er less familiar with that system?

Judge GUDGER. Well, I really feel that I 

sonally to decide or give an opinion on a qu

adhere to the opinion that three men on the I

who know the conditions, who study the peopl

who look into everything as it exists, are bett

render satisfactory decisions, not only to them

lic, than are men who come here only once a y

same man twice. That is my private opinio

law that cial people use more largly andre court federal M. Judge Mr. Judge Mr. gradually and the who business that largely Esc.scn. EscRIcHARDSON. on from judge into English speak GUDGER. GUDGER. system this are this theso unknown Is The tending accustomed will zone, the believe it than language, transaction, United would tendency your Engilsh I Yes; be think and The at thathat tto judgment be the I States, giving question them believe it to and language? satisfactory. way. is of is present is all in the that persons growing in atputting I charge who it that wish application all, the of way? is, time. who saving are course the and to who int of one accuask. woubuthe I a smjj
PANAMA CANAL. 

and sit among them. Do you think that that w

ct

economy or public contentment?

JudgeGUDGER. I do not knowhowmuch they w

He would be a regular federal judge in the United St

h

here with a salary of $6,000 or $7,000 a year. Do ytw

save money to the Government? I think the a

wb

small that it would not compensate for the other dt

bles, and I say further that our judicial system, 

wi

l

expense to the Government. The expense of ali uc

to practically $43,000, and the income from al e

i

amounts to $33,983; I have the exact figures. rid

only $9,017 as between our receipts and dis e

t

includes salaries of all clerks connected withi he rji

preters, janitors, rent of buildings, actual running e

e

Mr. RICHARDSON. Then you do not think it cabme

ically administered than now?

Judge GUDGER. That is my judgment.

Mr. HUBBARD. How many (ays in the year w

br

t

hear these cases of appeal to which Judge Richarr

Judge GUDGER. I will say this: We try cases in tcm

rapidly than is the case in the United States, b

wh

n

juries, but we are handicapped by virtue of the f

t

m

the litigants are Spanish, many of them Frenc

large number of Chinese, and these speak foreig

l

w

have to have interpreters. In the appeals to the cw

find that element in a great many cases, so that in

a question of the amount involved, as to how m

t

h

much care should be taken with regard to the dbt

are other elements that enter into it. My expertb

has been that with the exception of a few cases tqot

amount involved does not cut a very great figur

tz

I

truth, I have found people who sued for two or thhd

who felt just as much interest as other men who s

fb

at the same time our system does not allow thabrf

appeal. I simply give it as my opinion that o

ot

judges, for cheapness and efficiency, is the best tcb

devised for the zone. I do not speak of the pebot

What felonies, four system. cuit dicion two many for assaults, Judge The Judge TheCIIAIRMAN. Judge The more f that of is of CIIAIRMAN. CHAIRMAN. CHAIRMAN. that of trial, the GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. them larcenies, etc.? than thellast, character and criminal was that. misdemeanors, two various Well,hat Judge, We Of Theyre there burglaries, pending the ofave cses could we a were these proportion 100 I other demand noticed have no filed civil in 67 not and cases? jurisdiction felonies. that civilthe during bring cases for capital they in of district cases circuit-twjudgment the them a filed have the suit report cases. decidein judgduriyeaare assunlbiftct2whjpiaWhlfetcptyihfmt$twd
62 PANAMA CANAL.

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir. Our object has b

try the cases. The life of a criminal case in o

weeks from the time the crime is committed 

that is, not a capital case. The civil cases mu

must get out of court within a reasonable tim

cases now on the docket which have been ther

We have made every exertion to have them t

a reasonable time. 

The CHAIRM .'how many of the 67 ca

j

ment rendere Df ess of $100?

Judge GUD in satisfied that there 

less than $100. I

The CHAIRMA . your judgment, as near

what would be the a$gregate amount of judgm

Judge GUDGER. That would simply be a ca

would imagine something like $700.

The CHAIRMAN. An average, that?

Judge GUDGER. Yes: it might not go that 

because I have not taken notes of that vie

purely, but I can get that information and 

every judgment.

(Statement appended hereto.)

The CHAIRMAN. Your dockets, of course, w

money collected under execution, the amoun

j

amount of collections on execution?

Judge GUDGER. You want the satisfactions

The CHAIRMAN. I want more than that. 

amount was actually collected upon process.

Judge GUDGER. I do not think a very larg

collected that way.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You say there is a murd

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir; we have two, one 

one that is already sentenced. These are tri

and then it goes up before the supreme court

Mr. KENNEDY. When was that executive 

the jury trials for murders?

jurors mission, and 20 heif which trouble; say as Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judge an Judge well men does [r. therehat e KENNEDY. KENNEDY. BARTLETT. because nployee, is asnd not and GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. it GUDGER. he tois another? breaks like leave should his trouble every theye it. advantage. Have his is Why About Yes, We Yes, man into perforii, are A not in 20 juror pay selecting taken you sir.hould you andhere the men allowed a what year is wok, had no. and is without Fro fro allowed a you ago.nything; jurors. trouble busy when the n We a and a not that nong law trials anybodhave man; $2 you that pay secuper saystathbtahla jj
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. BARTLETT. But we want to find a way of rem

t

l

Gudge GUDGER. Well, I presume by order of t

w

give them a salary during the tire their servic

r

jurors. As I said before, I think there are only t

i

i

which jurors claimed fees.

Mr. HUBBARD. Are there any stated hours for t

t

court?

Judge GUDGER. No, sir; there are office hours.

Mr. HUBBARD. That is, for the judges?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, and no.

Mr. HUBBARD. If your court is in session for the t

c

h

many hours is it sitting per day?

Judge GUDGER. When I go to Empire I get up 

5

t

the 6.30 train, and get back at 7 o'clock p. ni. I p

i

t

you can count the time as you please. I say the j

n

h

office hours really, but if they are not in court th

c

bf

their places of business or in their homes.

Mr. HUBBARD. My question refers more to the 

w

y

are trying cases.

Judge GUDGER. If I go to-morrow morning to 

I 

through the cases in the morning at 12 o'clock, an

t

i

t

I

can come home on I take that; and if I get thro

3 

I

come home at 4.30, which is the last train.

Mr. HUBBARD. Would you do that in the event t

i

c

r

for trial on the morning of the next day?

Judge GUDGER. You mean where there is no ot

b

Mr. HUBBARD. Yes, sir.

Judge GUDGER. We never leave the court with u

b

ness unless night comes.

Mr. HUBBARD. Have you any right to fix the ti

f

t

Judge GUDGER. Yes; at any time I want to. W

t

f

cases so as to interfere with the work as little as p

T

m

of our witnesses and a large number of our litigan

b

employees of the canal, and we always have in view i

f

t

of these cases the taking of the least time possible t

m

from their work. We feel that we are here for t

b

t

canal. Of course civil government is necessary, b

t

r

b

is building on the zens think, Zoe ther, the Mr.Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judre the Enylish of have %ut building Escn. ESCH. EscH. ESCH. of zone the GUDGER. of GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. three I bn the United fix language. do Did Under A How of months. canal not theaccustomed the Well, practically Yes, No, Yes, is qualifications think States? these it more executive canal, in sir.ir; s.I the do the qualifications than thato and notThey They colored only island the order we know. we is of jury your should have true. can jurors? don't of Jamaicans establishing Jamaica? system? help. do American I to want think be they reside able thsito niwtjtrwhtbhpIethjtj
64 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. BARTLETT. There is a system of trial bj

Judge GUDGER. Well, I have not been in Jam

as to that.

Mr. HUBBARD. Judge, I will ask you to f

covered by the statement you have already fil

the number of days on which the circuit jud

j

cases, if-you can do that?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir.

(Statement appended hereto.)

The CHAIRMAN. Judge, did you not speak j

other than the supreme court judges?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir. [Reads from rep

first circuit Judge Duran sat 88 times, as giv

circuit. It does not give it in mine, or in Jud

The CHAIRMAN. Did you speak of five othe

j

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir. I spoke of the 

j

answer to justices of the peace in the States, 

sion of powers.

The CIIAIRMAN. What is their jurisdiction?

Judge GUDGER. They have jurisdiction in 

the fine does not exceed $100 and the punishm

statute punishes a man for forty days or there 

have no jurisdiction.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand you have two 

death and two to try?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir. We have the C

understand has been remanded because the 

Court has no jurisdiction. He was tried w

j

tenced to be hanged. The mode then in force 

his life by a circuit judge and one of the distri

j

the tax collectors, who was at that time call

the defendant having the right to object to a

The CHAIRMAN. And how was the other tri

Judge GUDGER. The other was tried in the 

The CHAIRMAN. There were two men sente

by juries?

Judge GUDGEr. Yes, sir.

ing jury trict reason The Judge The Judge Colonel Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judge governor trial whoBARTLETT. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. CHAIRMAN. CHAIRMAN. of GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. an was may GOETHALS. executive in tried be Governor had? You AndDes Colonel Then I Who Yes, It Andby understand think says Yes; order a had sir. that one that postponed. we jury. Blackburn's all about Goethals. juries to I ofhave order jury capital postponed the be it a hung of executed President. system is year limit it?twelve? to cases. Isn't absencFridaybe ago. the it pohathhok
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. BARTLETT. Then you can inflict imprisonm

of years here?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir. The law on the subj

he desires to do so, a man charged with murder c

murder in the first degree, then the highest punish

inflicted is a life sentence.

Mr. HUBBARD. I do not know whether I underst

or not; do you say a man indicted for murder i

might, of his own option, avoid capital punishm

guilty of murder in the first degree, the punishm

imprisonment for life?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. So you can not hang a man unle

hung?

Judge GUDGER. He has the right-further, if a 

of murder in the first degree, the judge, of his 

reduce it without setting aside the verdict.

Mr. KENNEDY. Does your code compel you to gi

Judge GUDGER. We are compelled to give a man 

is unable to employ one, unless he objects.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who pays him?

Judge GUDGER. Nobody; it is a courtesy of the b

comes into court, if he has not an attorney I ask him 

and if he does I assign an attorney to his case. 

not want an attorney I do not give him a counsel

him justice myself. We (1o not try anybody wit

wishes it. I have not heard an attorney make th

tion to appear for a man under these circumstance

Mr. BARTLETT. There is no provision for appeal 

them in any criminal case?

Judge GUDOER. I understand that a decision of 

Supreme Court is that there has not been any p

allowing an appeal in criminal cases.

Mr. BARTLETT. Can you take a man out by a writ 

Judge GUDGER. Yes.

Mr. RICHARDsoN. 'What are your rules for admis

Judge GUDGER. In Panama any lawyer who wa

law examined have for more larly the admitted sitting Mr. Judge Mr. Judge life. if United on 70178-PAN admitted satisfactorily he BARTLETT. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. en the GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. can on bane. on States 26th theprove anly course CAN-09-5 of same YouBut By Do These No; Yes; who settled February that one one you you laidhave proof. the can but person he cases judge? not by have down only is practice they nof juries? of are think Others in jury two1904, common-law good by can decided that trialshe cases in that appeal I moral that manner. think, a supreme state by questions in are wish characto commthe casescapiis or the adjutc
66 PANAMA CANAL.

Judge GUDGER. Like every lawyer, I hav

t

you express. In theory, I believe in it. P

t

application to the Canal Zone, I do not belie

i

here are such that I believe that one judge try

satisfactory to the litigants and to the public, t

j

be. The truth is, I believe the jury system 

t

Z

f

the cases I am talking about would be a failur

h

r

i

the committee want to know them. Person

j

prefer to have a jury; I would prefer some on

t

r

sibility of deciding the facts.

Mr. BARTLETT. The qualifications of a jur

t

r

citizenship he should be able to read and wri

t

E

Judge GUDGER. I do not know whether his b

t

in, but lie should be able to speak the English 

M

t

people who can write and speak English are 

Mr. BARTLETT. The same class of people t

j

the state and federal courts, are they not?

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BARTLETT. And if that system is good 

t

courts in common lawsuits, it ought to be go

h

Judge GUDGER. I do not think so, for we h

t

Jamaicans, and Chinese, and I do not think t

p

class, would as leave be tried by a jury as t

j

whom, I think, they would look up to a littl

t

h

was a little more interested in administering j

t

think there is a little more feeling here tha

p

t

United States. However, that is my opin

b

correct, and I simply give it as my opinion

b

t

j

system, but I (o not think it is applicable to t

p

h

Mr. RICHARDSON. Where do you record ti

Judge GUDGER. We record titles in Ancon

E

where there is a registrar who records these t

Mr. RICHARDsON. Is he an appointed office

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir. le is the clerk 

t

i

pointed by the judge, with the approval of th

Mr. RIcHARDsON. Are wills recorded in the 

Judge GUDGER. Yes, sir.

jurisdiction? Government? not would maintained any which yet, the plasantly The Mr. Judge Mr. Judge Mr. Judge JUDGE past know but other KENNEDY. CHAIRMAN. the KENNEDY. the KENNEDY. lie GUDGER. GUDGER. GUDGER. between GUDGER. otherwise. crime circuit as circuit? must in could any isbe Have Have the court You In Yes, In None, one No, committed. be. tried criminal Canal Everything criminal of see sir. you sir. here you in that the no the surveyed Zone We had In have circuits, reason I cases circuit know offenses theave any governmehas jurisdictiit courts, tof. and or never where conflimoved must apprewo

cm

detbtbtibtttbthtijt
PANAMA CANAL. 

REPORT.

CIRCUIT COURT, FIRST JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF THE C

JUDGE DURAN.

[For months of January to December, 190

Cases pending first of year.-. 

Civil.-------------------------------------------

Crim inal. 

Cases filed during year. . . . .--------

Civil.-. 

Crim inal. 

Cases settled during year---------.-------------. 

Civil.-. 

D ecided. 

Dismissed. ------------------- 3

Crim inal. 

Acquitted. 

D ism issed. 

Convicted. 

Habeas corpus.--------------- 

Nolle prossed.--------------------------------

Cases pending last of year.----------------------------

Civil.-.---------------------. 

Crim inal. 

Probate cases pending first of year----------. 

Probate cases filed during year-.------------- 

Probate cases settled during year. . . . 

Probate cases pending last of year.---------------------

Number of sessions of court.-------------------------------

Number of marriage licenses issued. 

Number of deeds recorded. 

Costs collected.

Civil costs. 

Crim inal costs. 

Fines_ .-. 

Forfeitures 

Marriage licenses----- . . . . 

Recording fees. 

Notarial fees.-----.----.------------ 

Miscellaneous. . . . . . . 

Total.- . . ------

.-----

absconded Cases December. Of Civil.--------- Criminal. Civil-rim the pnding filed inal. 8 CIRCUIT during and pending - first bail -year.-- of COURT, was criminal For year. - forfeited monhsSECOND -cases, of January -JUDGE 1 January JUDICIAL was --. GUDGER. filed 4. to CIRCUIT The December, during 7 other OF NovemTHE 190cas. W
68 PANAMA CANAL.

Cases settled during year.----------------------- 3

Civil. . -. 

Decided.-----------------. 

D ism issed. 

Crim inal. 

Acquitted. 

Convicted . 

Dism issed. 

N olle prossed. 2

Habeas corpus1.

Withdrawn-------------. 

Change venue. 

Cases pending last of year. 

Civil. . .--------

4

Crim inal. 2

Cases tried during month0.

Civil. ---------------. 

Crim final .-

Costs collected.

Civil cost.----------------- 

4

Criminal costs.-------. 

Criminal fines. 

Forfeitures.---------------------------.------------- 

M iscellaneous fees. 

Escheat. . . . . . . . . 

Marriage licenses (945). 

Notarial fees-------- . . . . .-----------

4

Instruments recorded (143). ------- 71.65

Total .

Explanation.

Cases, criminal and civil, pending January 1, 1909. 

During December, 1908, new civil cases filed and not at i

2

During December, 1908, new criminal cases filed and no

i

End o year, probate cases, time of settlement not out 

Civil cases tried in December, 1908; judgment January, 

Criminal cases where parties absconded. ----------------- 2

Criminal cases where defendant is in penitentiary on ot

Cases to settle land title under arbitration award, no issu

Cases disposed of, except final order under cession.---------

3

Cases Civil.-. Crim Civil. Crim Civil. settled pending filed Making Decided Dism and inal.l. CIRCUIT during not during issed. an first tried actual year.-. COURT, of year. For year. during balance moths THIRD the of of year JUDICIAL JUDGE cases, January civil COLLINS. CIRCUIT to and DecembcrimiOF h3MT277
PANAMA CANAL. 

Cases settled during year-Continued. Crim inal. 7

A cquitted. 9

Convicted. . . . . . 4

Nolle prossed.-. 

Appealed. . . . . . 

Cases pending last of year.-. 2

Civil. 

Crime inal.-. 

Number of marriage licenses issued. . . . . .

2

Number of deeds recorded----------.--.-------.o. 7

Costs collected.

Civil costs.-. 

Criminal costs. . . . . . . 

7

Fines. 2

Forfeitures. 7

M arriage licenses. 

Recording fees. 

Miscellaneous. 

Total.--------------------------------------------

NELSO

R

J

SUPREME COURT OF THE CANAL ZONE.

For months of January-December, 1908.

Cases pending first of year. 5

Civil .-. 3

Crim inal. 

Cases filed during year. 

Civil.-.0. 

Crim inal. 

Cases settled during year. 

Civil-----.------------------------------------- 

Crim inal.-.-. 7

Cases pending last of year. -. _ 

Civil. . . . . . . 

Criminal.-----------------------------------------

NOTE.-Two more cases filed, but not docketed, because conpu

after January 1.

Costs collected.

Civil Recapitulation Cases costs pending filed settled pending Total. during during .-.-. first last of business year. of of year. supreme year. year. done court in RECAPITULATION. the during first, the second, calendarnd year WALTER third 1908

ClejESa7
70 PANAMA CANAL.

Total collections.

Civil costs. . . . . . . . . 3

Criminal costs. 

39

Fines.------ ------------------------

Forfeitures. . . . . . 70

M arriage licenses. 70

Recording fees. . . . . . 5

Miscellaneous fees -------. . . 

Grand total.----------------------------- 

Marriage licenses issued during year. . 

Documents recorded during year.----------------------

Regarding cases pending last of year, see note on separate rt

CIVIL CASES DISPOSED OF IN 1908 INVOLVING JUDGMENTIJ

CICUIT.

Thirty-eight cases; total amount of judgments. 57

Estate of Yet King. 23

Total. ----------------- 16,859.16

NOTE.-The other of the 86 civil cases disposed of du

tyi

judicial circuit were where the defendant got judgment f

wt

was for a cause other than a money demand.

CAPITAL CASES FOR 1908.

First circuit, 2 cases; jury engaged two days.

Second circuit, 4 cases; jury engaged six days.

Third circuit, I case; jury engaged two days.

Total, 7 cases; juries engaged ten days.

NOTE.-Second circuit court, 1 case tried before jur

w

i

1 case pending, set for trial January 30, 1909; 1 case nolle p

J

STATEMENT OF MR. TOM M. 

Mr. EAcH. Please give your full name and y

Mr. COOKE. Tom M. Cooke, collector of reve

Mr. Mr. Escn. You are under Senator Blackbur

department over schools? of areMr. the estates, in customs, CooKE. Escn. COOKE. Escri. COOKE. the Escn. land COOKE. Escn. COOKE. canal department and department. of and That Wehat You I Yes, That Five civilInternal post-offices, am have forty-seven want hve department, is administration. miles sir; under is the charge in ofto knowledge revenue, customs, civil the superficial on the direct police, and either division of administration. chairman; that. as aour belong post-offices, of fraction I side area, fire understathat? of inquiry of revento indepamy the mmmbtihjttZt
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Esci. How much of that tract is so-called 

Mr. COOKE. We own by the original purchase 

miles. We have purchased in the past few years ab

miles more. There are about 188 square miles th

j

diction over, received by our treaty witit Panam

Railroad Company owns--I am not giving exact 

square miles; and about 135 square miles are in p

Mr. Escri. Does your (lepartmnent control the lan

Railroad ?

Mr. COOKE. No, sir; they have their own lanl d

Mr. Escir. You say 135 square miles are in priva

Mr. COOKE. About that.

Mr. Escn. Then the balance would represent th

the Canal Zone?

Mr. COOKE. Not entirely. We have have title to 

miles, by purchase; then there are some public 

public lands of Panama when the treaty was made

lute jurisdiction over this land, as far as the tre

I am not prepared to say we own it.

Mr. Escn. Who does, if the LTnited States does n

Mr. COOKE. The treaty, I believe, uses the wor

"jurisdiction in perpetuity" of this land.

Mr. EscH. But are there no private owners for t

Mr. COOKE. No; there is no claim of ownership.

The CHAIRMAN. It is public land, just as in the 

our country?

Mr. COOKE. Yes, sir.

Mr. Escn. What is the extent of that, approxima

Mr. COOKE. About 188 square miles.

Mr. Escn. You mean to say there is no land w

the Canal Zone of private ownership?

Mr. COOKE. I have said there are about 135 squa

Mr. Escir. Take the savannas. That is in the 

they in private ownership?

Mr. CooKE. Yes; the commission owns no land i

Mr. Escn. Are there not a good many squatters 

who claim titles by reason of imitationn? dicated know in treaty. Congress a to valid Mr. Mr. Mr. fiveee what COOKE. Escn. COOKE. COOKE. CEscn.OOKE. Escu. simple years. title'? them. How under theWhat If There Let and doThere As We I Yes, holdingr date Sometimes they do you us rapidly thoseav leaseare sir. not take of do are dispose July some of prove kfnow some. you for upthem as the they 28, such which your we done of the court occupancy 1892, under hav such could people necessary administration with we would for lands? been pick the have those? as for period be. able that author

up term twentgra titlo in noo
72 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. Escii. That is the existing statute? 

extension of the term of lease?

Mr. COOKE. I would. Where it is possible to 

a longer period will allows him opportunity 

iinprovements--to open up the land and c

instances, under the present terms of lease, 

continuation of it, he does not have time to pu

Mr. Escm. 11 other words, it is difficult to p

secure a crop in the time allowed?

Mr. COOKE. Yes: they would plant sugar 

become a valuable crop within a year. It wo

extend the term of lease where the engineer

advise that the land would not be needed for 

Up to this time that has not been possible.

Mr. Esci. In your opinion, what should be 

such lease?

Mr. COOKE. I should think fifteen to twenty 

Mr. Escir. You think you would secure mor

Mr. COOKE. More, and better Ones.

Mr. Esci. To what extent have the people 

of the existing law?

Mr. COOKE. Very little. We have about 1,

Mr. EscH. Have you put a limit on the amo

Mr. COOKE. No, sir.

Mr. Escir. You mean to say a man can 

amount of land?

Mr. COOKE. If lie pays for it

Mr Escn. Would you not think it better to 

leasehold interest?

Mr. CooKE. A discretionary limit might no

some concern desired to come down. here and 

them to cut up their leases. The people her

amount of land, because they have not the 

Lengthening the term of the lease and reducin

value of the land might bring a better class o

lease.

Mr. Eson. What is the unit of land here?

ment thy ment Government that cos latedeasing. advantage lease tion Mr.r. to going the lease landEscn. to required length COoKE. COOKE. Escn. COOKE. COOKE. EscH. the holder take That only Government, with on. of of You at In the out ByThe It those At I shall time and small any such think think law? would not leaseholds? theectare-about theimee remove certainty lands, portions a providing present a so. lease Government and short limit not without an the in I would be of term of award time case the property 20 anland-1, indemnity tenure, idemnity; to 2'be inducemeny6u are past we doesf 40 does acres. providthe providdamahectait on that so 2, nohareacy3
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Escu. Do you think the construction of the 

advanced, and the limits of the Gatun lake are now 

that we can locate land available for lease, and so 

enact a more liberal law with respect to leaseholds?

Mr. COOKE. I think Colonel oethals could answ

better than I.

(The question is repeated to Colonel Goethals.) Colonel GOErHAs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Eson. And that therefore now Would be an 

for formulating a law liberalizing leasehold interest

Colonel GOETHALs. Yes, sir.

Mr. EscH. When the Government ac(luired the r

Zone, extending five miles on either side of the cente

it was not then known what the limits of the Gat

or whether there would be any lake; I notice in lo

now that the limits of the lake will extend beyond 

Canal Zone. What has the Government done in re

ing land at those places beyond the limits of the zo

Colonel GOETHALS. Where the ownership of th

determined the question has been submitted to the 

or the general counsel for the commission has mad

purchase that land.

Mr. Escn. Has there been any condemnation, or 

kind?

Colonel GOETHAIs. The land commission is in th

demnation; and the canal boundaries are now fix

with the American engineers and the Panamanian 

sented in a party which determined and marked t

of the Zone.

Mr. EscH. And those lines as now laid out pr

original 5-mile limit?

Colonel GOETHALS. No; they project right thr

miles on either side of the center line of the canal. 

of our treaty with Panama grants to the United St

p ation, and control of any other lands and waters ou

imit which may be necessary for the construction 

of the canal or auxiliary works. language orf den Secretary are ofdvance. Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Mr. Mr. the an other Dios, the gtting applicant Esci. KENNEDY. KENNEDY. COOKE. canal. iscn. COOKE. Pacific on auxiliary also GOETHALS. GOETHALS. of stone the That Making would War side. Yes, None, Caribbean, for from That Under wouldrks? a is sir; give leasehold? proper Anything Yes, except Porto used. is $3 the carry us the and sir; perthe compensation? Bello; existing that The amount withe hctare unde that right purpose man a we it is form law, that of tohe are necessary per rent pays go right what getting provisio

getting of annum. out you lease his to thear fons$
74 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. Escn. In your opinion, would it be wi

leaseholds in the Canal Zone to put in certain 

Mr. CooK. Yes, sir.

Mr. Escn. What should be some of these q

Mr. CooKE. Well, the purpose for which 

character of the lessee, etc.

Mr. EscH. Would you require an affidavit 

actual resident and intends to remain such-a

Mr. CooKEr. Yes, sir; and that the land wi

set forth in the lease, to avoid anyone comin

a large amount of land to hold for speculative 

Mr. Escn. Would you allow leases to be tr

Mr. COOKE. No, I would not, without the 

ment. Of course, circumstances might aris

the lease would be necessary-in case of deat

Mr. Escii. Would you have the same fixe

would you vary it according to the quality of 

Mr. COOKE. I think it ought to be varied a

of the land, its location, nearness to market, 

and expense of clearing it.

Mr. Escn. Has there been any difficulty 

owners in fee in the tract that is to be subme

Mr. CooxE. That is a question I think eith

general counsel could answer. I do not kno

have had.

Mr. Esci. They would have a certain vested 

are going to take their lands away from the

care to take cash, but may prefer other land

authority for the transfer of lan( already 

Status in lieu of lands taken from them, th

given. Would there be enough land in the 

such titles?

Mr. COOKE. I can not answer that question

many acres of private land will be submerged

Colonel GOErrArs. Mr. Rogers conteinplat

rangenent with the owners of land that will 

an equal section of land bordering the lake

arrange alternate sufficient there investigated. reasonably number Government be titles Mr. Mr. true were any Escn. Escn. COOKE.oor. CooxEEscn. of of the ]and sections. lands private years, unquestioned perfect? distribution Do Now, On has bordering That Yes, Posibly to you such and lands needed which of sir. From question infer, thythe investigations, so. generally? by the so titles 135 have the because that Panama. They that lake square has can lad, submitted I theo have imagine not of be accomplmiles that and hasquestioGoverncome been the facmathin
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. ESCH. In giving leaseholds, would you give 

present occupant, even though he might be a squa

Mr. COOKE. No, I would not. If the plan is in

this country, the present holder of the lease prob

desirable.

Mr. Escif. You think that whatever law we sho

confer a good deal of discretion on the person who 

Mr. COOKE. Here-yes, sir. Your committee h

sideration a bill introduced by Representative M

copy of that bill. That bill provides, I think, for 

five years under certain provisions.

Mr. Escn. Would you reserve mineral, gas, and 

Mr. COOKE. That bill does.

Mr. Escr. Has there been much transfer of p

people here since we acquired possession?

Mr. COOKE. Very little.

Mr. EsCH. If a farm out here in the savannas wa

would be recorded in your records?

Mr. COOKE. Yes, sir; in the zone records.

Mr. HUBBARD. Are there not Government lands 

z

contain mineral deposits of value ?

Mr. COOKE. None, so far as known at present.

Mr. HUBBAR. Are there any indications?

Mr. COOKE. I can not answer that question-I 

little of it. We have had one or two applications 

rights, and I have answered that, in my opinion

was approved by the then Governor Magoon- 

would necessitate congressional action.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Do you think that the dema

strong to justify some legislation on that line?

Mr. COOKE. I do not, at the present time.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You spoke of land for ngriw

what is the character of that?

Mr. COOKE. They grow son10 vegetablies, yams, 

and have some fruit trees.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Any corn?

Mr. COOKE. SOme. TIhere is piobabiV in sight 

fertile. grown your on possibly a 12regriculture. pig Mr. The which feetngaged pass wrist. and COOKE. RICrARDSON. COokE. CHAIRMAN. CHAIRMAN. here? long. a through, he some littl in will The Well, About I In agriculture? chickens. plat do phnt average Cuba This About about .Iow notf that 6 yams, corn soil or think and 150 wxhat many is West 7 is as according feet. Porto acres yucca, extremely sO. big is people Indian the asof I I Rico a this length have corn. d little to do will fertile, not it room; what You never patC grows of rent think Supa is yoms
76 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. IIUBBARD. What is the size of an ear o

Mr. COOKE. It is a very small ear-they g

h

Some of it is of better grade. We had soni 

t

Govermnent, and gave each leasebolder some 

hb

fairly successful.

Mr. KNOWLAND. You do not think the a

p

of the zone are great enough to warrant the 

an expert from the department down here?

Mr. COOKE". Aell, to express an opinion 

tb

t

criticise the-Government.

Mr. Escn. All bars are down.----

Mr. COOKE. I do not see the necessity for i

Mr. HUBBARD. Might it not be of value to 

of plants found here that are not found elsew

tb

any such investigation?

Mr. COOKE. I know of none.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no agricultural exh

Mr. COOKE. Not here; no, sir.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Are there any valuable timt

Mr. COOKE. Very little. We had that 

some time ago. The investigation was brough

that much valuable timber was being ruthlessl

The investigating party was mounted and ou

based on their report I think it a very fair anti

little valuable timber in the Canal Zone?

The CHAIRMAN. Any mahogany?

Mr. COOKE.- Traces; most of it was cut off y

y

The CHAIRMAN. What is the character of t

the hard-wood ties of the Panama Railroad w

Mr. CooKE. A great deal of it is mahogany

vitO.

Mr. Esci. In the United States we have a r

with which you are familiar. In laying off h

receiving an application, what is the method 

i

the method of marking so as to identify the l

Mr. COOKE. A description from some pro

t

bank of a stream.

have into lar Leases lessee to'the features, or Mr. 20, tract irregular a might Escn.COOKE. COOKE. RICHARDsON. Escir.H COOKE. COOKE. commission, as could survey streams, record, the desire. be Metes Are You tracts case Yes, No, There Yes, of made the most etc.? all have sir. might sir. of and sir.keeping Have record lands are for course. of bounds? to In anyll be, these you lay available to in ormy or number out show portion a the tracts for public opinon the office as for the ofrectangof land many survewhat leasesurvthe an actuat bpbttikbtNtthtb
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. BARTLETT. I have here, a statement in the 

reference to land owned by the commission and 

page 146 of bound Volume I of the Canal Record. 

OWNERSHIP OF ZONE LAND.

A committee composed of J. G. Holcombe, division engine

superintendent of public works; Tom M. Cooke, collector of r

land agent of the Panama Railroad, was recently appointed to 

on steps which should be taken in order to encourage leasing an

and in the Canal Zone. The ownership of land in the Canal 

Owned by the United States by purchase from the New Pana

pany.-. 

Owned by the United States by condemnation and purchase 

visional delimitation of the Zone. . . . . 

Public land held by the United States by cession from Pan

treaty.--------------------------------------------

Owned by the Panama Railroad by cession from Colombia and 

private owners.--.-. 

Owned by private persons.-. 

Total. 

Lands acquired by the United States by purchase from the P

are public property of the United States. Authority to lease 

from the act of Congress, approved July 28, 1892, authorizing 

lease, in certain cases, property for a period not exceeding five 

able at any time.

Mr. BARTLETT. Is that correct?

Mr. COOKE. YeS, sir. I believe I wrote that my

Mr. BARTLETT. That second item of 3.01 squa

include the land acquired by the last commissio

and Bumpus-that was here?

Mr. COOKE. No, sir.

(Mr. Cooke here advised the committee that o

bound Canal Record was an article containing sug

needed regulations in the matter of leasing of pub

report of his had been carefully drawn up and 

given every possible consideration, and that he wo

to the committee. Copy appended hereto.)

in tivation mately Public Owned I Owned makeSIR: Under pany.------------------------------------------------visional treaty.-----.---.--.------------ private regard Total.-.-. Referring 448.37 by by land by such by of the to owners. delimitation the private the the the provisional suggestions held square Panama Uited land United leasing to by persons. fn your miles, the States the Railroad of States of delimitation PUBLIC as public verbalthe United Canal I divided believe by Zone. by LANDS by lands purchase request Zone, condemnation States cession a ofwould on the toIN I by for have the ownership THE Canal from from tend statement cession Canal the CANAL the Colombia Zone, to and honor encurage Zone, New as from purchase -----------ZONE. the followsas Panato and togearea Panto su
78 PANAMA CANAL.

On May 9, 1904, by letter addressed to the Secretary o

W

t

P

Gen. George W. Davis governor of the Canal Zone, and

t

D

should, as gNovernor maintain possession of the Zone

i

t

p

l

therein and the property on the Isthmus acquired from t

R

P

On September 2, 1904, the commission provided by r

t

r

p

owned by the United States or under the control of th

I

on the Isthmus should be placed in charge and under th

m

o

General Davis, as governor of the Canal Zone, who w

t

l

The governor by order turned the land department of th

Z

t

o

revenues in January, 1905.

When the property of the French Canal Company was t

t

mission a part of the land purchased from the canal co

w

u

l

T

question of continuing the leases on these lands was ref

t

W

who directed that the leases should be continued, under t

J

2

1892, authorizing the Secretary of War to lease "for a pe

n

f

y

and revocable at any time, such property of the United S

u

h

m

not for the time be required for public use and for th

l

w

t

i

n

authority under existing law."

Subsequently the question of leasing land in the C

Z

f

t

Republic of Panama, which was public land of Panam

b

t

o

t

canal treaty between Panama and the United States, w

r

t

o

War, and he directed that such land should be leased upon t

t

and in the same manner as the land purchased from the N

P

was leased.

The rate charged by the French Canal Company for agr

l

w

to $6 United States currency per hectare per annum

E

J

under authority of the Secretary of War, this rate was re

b

t

t

Canal Zone to $S United States currency per hectare pe

T

r

for building lots in towns vary from 5 to 30 cents Unite

p

meter per annum.

At the time of the transfer of the zone the municipal

oE

claimed certain public lands in the vicinity of those t

l

The lands claimed by them are included in the "public l

r

t

I

an action between the Panama Railroad Company and 

i

the title to lands at Empire, the circuit court for the 

j

t

Canal Zone decided that the land claimed by the munici

w

t

p

t

railroad.

The land claimed by the municipality of Gorgona w

u

t

w

t

municipalities of the zone were abolished, April 15, 1907

l

b

m

under a municipal ordinance. Since that time the leas

t

l

t

h

expired or have been canceled,,have been rewritten by t

r

the same form as the leases for public land approved by t

o

W

There are at present. June 30, 1908, 1,081 leases for pu

l

i

t

Z

executed by the collector of revenues on the form appro

b

t

o

w

One hundred and ninety-four of those leases are for ag

l

in area 590 hectares, and 878 are for town lots.

While efforts have been made to secure lessees and s

o

p

l

t

tenure to on because any the prospective rate trails pack efforts way some of nation that Third. Fourth. Fifth. FirstSecond. the accessible account value were definite of will horses, of oland have under of systematic the of the There It reduced. the be of the It claimed of There settlers not land has their Isthmus to tenure and is required which canal difficulty title, provision transport not is been been claimed desirable a improvements has efforts believed from great by actually work. or it systematic makes been impossible for is private wth of of leasing agricultural at along deal as cnal transportation land the present in that public any it belongs of persons, difficult the law those with sucor purposes. uncertainty if the assurance because the general. past, under landeased rents to lines: products any lands, leases it for the and is of will assurance which charged there any also of supplies that but Government It respecting There should still probably tle from has persons, claimed it the might occupanconditiis, for is been have that farmland be possoveuncagrbbcbitltitZbppfujntrtlititwnbowiltlwbrflhtwtpmfitfprtnwtnm
PANAMA CANAL. 

Sixth. It is not to be expected that the agricultural land

developed by citizens of the United States or natives of the 

who may come here dependent upon their own efforts. Such 

cessfully perform manual labor in this climate. The agricu

the Isthmus must be through the efforts of Americans, or oth

will employ the labor of the Isthmus, or of the West Indies, o

natives of the Isthmus, the West Indies, or southern Europe, w

labor here themselves. Up to this time, so far as is known, bu

tion has been received for the rental of large tracts of land, an

not pressed when the applicant was notified that a lease with p

not be given him.

It is believed that in an effort to encourage agricultural dev

the following measures should be taken:

1. Efforts should be made to determine as early as possible 

Zone that will be required for canal purposes; the limits of t

by the construction of dams, and the ground that will be c

doubtless be ascertained in large part, if not entirely, at this 

2. The public lands of the zone should, where there is an

character, be definitely determined by judicial action to b

could be accomplished by proceeding under the provisions of 

code in force in the Canal Zone under the President's order o

scribing a method of establishing titles to real property in the 

3. A survey of the public land of the zone should be unde

as early as practicable, the land to be divided into lots or secti

4. The regulations governing the leasing of public lands sh

to authorize the commission to grant perpetual or long-time 

in the event that land should be required at any time for public 

been leased in perpetuity or for a long period of time, for the 

lessee of the value of his improvements upon the land. The 

the leasing of lands are covered into the zone treasury and the 

-authorized to use such part of them as may be necessary for the 

ment of such occupants of public lands. As the Secretary 

the authority to lease public land in the zone is derived fro

referred to above, it may be that to change the form of leas

would be required. It is also possible that a distinction may 

two classes of public land in the zone, i. e., land purchased 

Company and that acquired from Panama under the treaty. T

States has absolute title; to the latter it has the right of posses

of sovereignty in perpetuity.

5. Roads and trails should be constructed and improved 

Main roads of substantial macadam construction should be bu

cultural parts of the zone, as far as the zone line, and from tho

and trails should be constructed. There is a considerable sum 

treasury available for public improvements in the zone, and a s

for the construction of roads and trails should be adopted.

6. The commission should be authorized in opening public 

reimburse squatters upon the land for the value of any improv

put as toItincurred, that municipalities local of timeheir investment States 8. AcriNO 7. 9. 10. Respectfully enter it such is upon The under such is Pending believed tax fmilies Efforts of the lands into that collectors it rate authority lands and HEAD opinion unless the of a should fact of the incapital nothing formal of that as submitted. terms rental the the OF may settlement commission such and instead for of this DEPARTMENT zone, be inlease of be the more leasing of should persons agricultural made the applied amountthe examiner leases and for of than of President's advantages by should such be the to should when titlo fr, thedecreased would induce such public OF public land. lands of toeach collector be the exercise CIVIL reimbursement accounts, public reimburse authorized order,ffered Spanish land application commission public land probably ADMINISTRATION. lands of in the dated in by revenues. acting noticethe and the right the agriculture in to zone to to March zone ishould the Italian lease be as should (which govern81.50 prepaaudpassshouCanshoToin 1
80 PANAMA CANAL.

ZONE PUBLIC LANDS, AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT OF THEIR 

DITIONS IN REGARD TO THEIR LE

ANCON, CANA

Under the provisional delimitation of the Canal Zone, t

mately 448.47 square miles, divided as to ownership as f

Owned by the United States by purchase from the New 

pany. . . . . . . . . 

Owned by the United States by condemnation and pu

visional delimitation of the zone.-----------------

Public land held by the United States by cession fro

- 188. 91 treaty 

Owned by the Panama Railroad by cession from Colombi

private owners. 

Owned by private persons. 

Total. 

On May 9, 1904, by letter addressed to the Secretary of 

Gen. George W. Davis governor of the Canal Zone, and 

should, as governor, maintain possession of the zone, 

therein, and the property on the Isthmus acquired from 

On September 2, 1904, the commission provided by re

owned by the United States or under the control of the 

on the Isthmus should be placed in charge and under th

General Davis, as governor of the Canal Zone, who w

The governor, by order, turned the land department of t

of revenues in January, 1905.

When the property of the French Canal Company 

Commission, a part of the hand purchased from the can

The question of continuing the leases on these lands wa

War, who directed that the leases should be continued 

July 28, 1892, authorizing the Secretary of War to lease 

five years, and revocable at any time, such property of 

control as may not for the time be required for public us

there is no authority under existing law."

Subsequently the question of leasing land in the C

Republic of Panama, which was public land of Panam

canal treaty between Panama and the United States, w

of War, and he directed that such land should be leas

conditions and in the same manner as the land purch

Canal Company was leased.

The rate charged by the French Can l Company for a

lent to $6 United States currency per hectare per an

1906, under authority of the Secretary of War, this rate 

the railroad. they and charged per Canal officials revenues of the and of claimed The In municipalities At There War. the an collector square title ninety-four 887 lands the have action Zone Canal land for are under certain are to time on claimed expired building meter decided for lands claimed between at ofthe Zonef revenues town of municipal present of public same the those per at theo or by that lotslots. Empire, by the transfer annum. $3 have formthem zone leases 1,081 lands in on the Panama United ordinance. towns the ben as land municipality were leass are the of in the form forthe States vary the included claimed Rlroad canceled, circuit leases abolished for agricultural approved zone vicinity from public Since currency for court by the Company of in 5 have public the cents Gorgona (April by theat municipalands ofor lands, municithe those per been "publto theime landand in Sec15, he30 agwtstj
PANAMA CANAL. 

WIule efforts have been made to secure lessees and settlers 

efforts have not been systematic nor general. There have been 

way of systematic efforts along those lines.

First. There is a great deal of uncertainty respecting land ti

some of the land claimed as public land is also claimed by pri

of the land claimed by private persons it will probably be foun

j

nation of t e title to actually belong to the Government and n

Second. There has been in the past, and still is, uncertain

that will be required for canal purposes. It has been impossi

accessible and desirable land with any assurance that they wo

account of canal work.

Third. It has been impossible because of the conditions o

because of the provision of the law under which the land is le

any definite tenure or with any assurance that occupants woul

value of their improvements if the leases should be canceled.

Fourth. It is not believed that the rents charged for agricultu

prospective settlers from leasing such lands, but it is possible t

tenure under which it is at present leased there might be mo

rate were reduced.

Fifth. The difficulty of transportation of supplies over the 

trails of the Isthmus makes it difficult for any persons except 

pack horses to transport agricultural products from farms to th

Sixth. It is not to be expected that the agricultural lands of 

oped by citizens of the United States or natives of the colder p

come here dependent upon their own efforts; such persons ca

form manual labor in this climate. The agricultural develo

must be through the efforts of Americans, or others with capita

labor of the Isthmus or of the West Indies, or.through the effor

mus, the West Indies, or southern Europe, who can perform m

selves. Up to this time, so far as is known, but one definit

received for the rental of large tracts of land, and that appli

when the applicant was notified that a lease with permanen

given him.

It is believed that in an effort to encourage agricultural devel

following measures should be taken:

1. Efforts should be made to determine as early as possible 

Zone that will be retired for canal purposes; the limits of the 

the construction of dams, and the ground that will be covered b

be ascertained in large part, if not entirely, at this time.

2. The public lands of the zone should, where there is any qu

acter, be definitely determined by judicial action to be public 

accomplished by proceeding under the provisions of chapter 

force in the Canal Zone under the President's order of March 

method of establishing titles to real property in the zone.

3. A survey of the public lands of the zone should be undert

early as practicable; the land to be divided into lots or sections 

4. The regulations governing the leasing of public lands shou

the of also the from to Main parts There ments trails authorize event leased to occupants lease may 5. the lands use value zone;possible be Roads Panama public of should roads latter is such that in 70178-PAN in that the a arperpetuity considerable the the of i. of land partit and of covered zone, his to land e., be that public commission has under zone substantial change adopted. improvemeiits of land should trails a in the and them distinction and CAN--09 lands. into the or tright purchased the sum should from for beas zone treaty. the to systematic, required a form of may construction of long grant As thdse possession zone money is may be upon of be the derived from 6period To perpetual constructed treasury, lease roads, necessary be at Secretary in the the the definite any made the with of congressional should from land. former side French time, timezon andor all between for the roads of and plan long the The for the bereasury the for the War actCanal pubic rights improved timehe built prpose and commission for revenues United of action the has reimburthe Congretrails leases, Compavailatwo stated of into purpconwosoof Stcaa
82 PANAMA. CANAL.

6. The commission should be authorized in opening p

reimburse squatters upon the land for the value of any im

put upon it, unless such persons should exercise the r

them) to enter into a formal lease for such land.

7. The rate of rental should be decreased, probably to 

It is believed that this amount would reimburse the G

incurred, and nothing more than such reimbursement sh

8. The authority for leasing the public land in the zon

as it is the opinion of the examiner of accounts, acting a

that under the terms of the President's order, dated Ma

municipalities of the zone, leases to public land in the 

the local tax collectors instead of by the collector of rev

9. Pending the settlement of title to public lands in th

-of such lands, the commission should be authorized to le

time, such lands as may be applied for, each applicati

received.

10. Efforts should be made to induce American and 

with their families in the zone, and when the commissio

the investment of capital in agricultural lands, public n

United States of that fact, and of the advantages offered b

STATEMENT OF MAJ. EUGENE T. WIL

Mr. Escn. What is your name and office?

Major WILSON. Maj. Eugene T. Wilson, ma

lery of the United States Army, now subsistenc

Canal Commission, also operating the commis

Panama Railroad.

Mr. Eson. Then, Major, you are a monum

your department?

Major WILSON. Better say advertisement.

Mr. EsCo. As such, what are your duties?

Major WILSON. I am in charge of the prep

meals in the various Isthmian Canal Commiss

of the white Americans live; in what we c

messes, composed mostly of Spaniards and Itali

laborers' kitchens-that is, in the subsistenc

commissary department we provide all food su

the Isthmus; we sell them to the largest custo

ence department of the Canal Commission, to th

to the hospitals, to the various dredges operate

:sary construction monthserchants stuff Yorkshire scattered of both Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr. household supplies? from white EscH.scn EscH.$1,388,000 WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. along relish, Europe. here and goods, Whatand Where Any the colored. in which engineering, We Sauces About other Panama, line kitchen supplies worth did do bought is you articles you kind used 80 We (practically and utensils, import? per are purchase and of supply by in andbout of cent not liquid? the imported food the wepurchased etc., in barrel. approxim$209,000 your United all. and the also to WorUnclothabsuse
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major WILSON. I will tell you later on. We bo

some jams; most of it is a cheap jam made in Lon

for use in the colored laborers' kitchens. The 

very fond of jam, and it is a part of his ration. W

menting with jams from California to take the p

have 50 or 60 cases on hand, and if it goes off we

it from California. We have pickles, mineral 

coats for men and women, tea-and fruit salts-E

people think it is good for prickly [eat; we sell l

gelatin, sardines, and cutlery. We also sell flann

which is sold almost exclusively to the negroes. So

come from Jamaica, Trinidad, and Barbados, but th

of them come from Jamaica. They almost all w

clothing, as they are subject to consumption and 

sell the flannel to them, and they make up the g

kit bags; of these we have 172; also cigars and ci

of military brushes, etc.

Mr. EscH. What is the total amount of your im

Major WILSON. $105,926.40, and from the State

Mr. Esc. That is for how long a period?

Major WILSON. Six months. From Panaman

bought goods to the value of $209,439.52.

Mr. Escn. What are the chief items you purcha

Major WILSON. We had some local contracts for 

that is the largest item. These come from Jamaic

also cigarettes. We buy cheap Rangoon rice, laid 

per hundred pounds, for the colored people. We a

chases of about 21 tons of fish per week here. 

tomatoes you had to-night for supper were also 

and there are other odds and ends. The comm

thing in that line here.

Mr. Escn. That shows your purchases?

Major WILSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. Escn. Will you state to the committee, 

feed the different races employed by the Commis

Major WILSON. In the first place we try to fee

the hotels, such as those you had lunch in at Cule

30 about basis. food that. quarter a chorizos, feeds of pound ration, ration lborer? lot Mr.ajor Mr. cents bread, per ofn the Esca. is EscH. We everything I rice, per stuffs per a 3.84 day-that give and VIESON. standard one-sixth ration; allow ration, mUal Gold? four-tenths pounds, What various the for11 for he various Yes, them-namely, included, and they is, pounds pound is that so other the gold--and allowed sir. thate are pound stewards meal. weight gets weighs of Spanish We used is fore-quarter so flour, the a feed sugar, garbanzos, they reasonable to much of about a limit. in the delicacies. limit 1 the are the '1 pound etc., ration 4.3 SpaniaThen food not pound and Uniteconpouamopeavcy
84 PANAMA CANAL.

Major WILSON. There is no weight at all; 

steward, but he can not go above a certain foo

where we feed many people, the food cost is p

1 cent or 2 cents-than in the others, because 

cheaper.

Mr. HUBBARD. About how much is the daily 

negro?

Major WILSON. About 28 or 29 cents, it d

Mr. Escu. And that is deducted from his 

Major WILSON. Yes.

Mr. Escn. In advance?

Major WILSON. No, sir; when a negro or Sp

next day at the mess or kitchen, before he kno

the timekeeper and asks for a meal ticket, and 

him that ticket, which he presents at any me

line. We take up the meal ticket and give him 

check, which entitles him to his breakfast and 

lar mess or kitchen the next day. When the 

the meal check, he has then got a day's work 

makes a deduction on his pay roll to pay for tha

that check. We do not handle any money at 

ual people who have no meal tickets and drop 

Mr. Escn. These people of different races 

Do you pander to that taste?

Major WILsON. Oh, yes, indeed. The Span

he is accustomed to in his own country and will 

them. The negro we feed according to the w

own country. I fixed up and changed the ratio

here. I took about one dozen kitchens where 

successful in feeding the negro and took an aver

a ration that I thought would work out all right

at two or three places and tried it for four or fi

satisfactory. It is a little more suited to thei

there is a new cook, and he will keep to the ra

not make a botch of it.

Mr. Escn. Have you any system for hearin

jurisdiction? men food,urnished? and case missaries, have erence the Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. line contented down yu at and EsCo. KNOWLAND. KNOWLAND. Escn. to a the WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. have goodthe if hotels, here hotels anything Andt food? deal to lot arehe etc., get Yes, We Yes, the I and notof and Is How think present men. out goes th have condition is at places sir. I sir. under have all many and so; matter wrong no backward The Occasionally time where they hustle three particular my different of employment of I is the look iurisdictionmen know the you there and about men to selection feed systestraigcookabouthingme satithe juswto
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major WILSON. About 71 or 72.

Mr. KNOWLAND. And how many different place

the z me where you feed these men?

Major WILSON. About 70.

Mr. HUBBARD. You speak of hotels and kitch

mean by that?

Maj or WILSON. We call a hotel where the white 

Isthmian Canal Commission hotel; such as at C

were, and at Gatun. These hotels are on our boo

inian Canal Commission hi tels. As f r the mess, 

that name started, but the place where the Spani

laborers eat are known as "'messes," and the kit

institution; these are known as "'colored laborers' 

Mr. BARTLETT. Did we get about the same d

you furnish on an average?

Major WILSON. Yes, I think so; in fact, the stew

me that they usually feed a little better than th

had good pie.

Mr. ESCH. Does the steward inspect the cook

service?

Maj or WILsON. Yes, sir. They see that they k

Mr. Esc. Do these three men you have out on 

service?

Major WILSON. Yes, sir. They inspect everyth

Mr. Escri. Is there any inspection of food?

Major WILSON. Yes, sir; inspection is made b

handles it before it leaves the warehouse.

Mr. Escn. You buy it by sample?

Major WILSON. The original inspection starts in 

bought in New York and inspected there. When i

we handle it and look it over and see if it is all righ

then when it gets out along the line and goes to t

everybody in my department has orders not to s

human consumption to anybody, and if there is a

food, the steward calls in a sanitary inspector at o

it is not fit, it is dumped overboard.

Mr. Escn. In other words, you apply on the zone 

abroad-is some absorption have them I from suspect Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor not from serving the Escn. ESCH. Escii.sc WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. struck Washburn-Crosby anything of there California. Is Where How-does How or moisture there selling anything any No, Int Absolutely. So do about that do deeriorates New far inspection any these sir; and food you that as looks the yet. York. precaution only its I buy foods not and flour know ispection tendency bad, when I fit of your very the have Most stand comply that? for I I think Pillsbury you it flour? rapidly send consumptiotoldf arrives theof can it with they mold. everybthe it climatcomes on take to herpoustuarat
86 PANAMA CANAL.

Major WILSON. Only to get rid of it as quic

best protection is to carry only a few days' stock

a stock for ten days, and eveiy six days we ha

roni we buy in New York and New Orleans, an

abroad.

Mr. Escn. How do they compare with the h

Major WILSON. Very much superior in flavor 

Mr. Escn. But how as to price?

Major WILSON. About a shade higher in pric

Mr. EscH. Freight added?

Major WILSON. Yes, sir. We pay for mac

cents per pound in 1-pound cartons, and $5.

50-pound tin-lined boxes. For foreign macar

per 100 kilos, f. o. b. Southampton. That wo

cents per pound here.

Mr. Escn. Can vegetables be grown here?

Major WILSON. Not to speak of.

Mr. Escn. Have you not an experimental ga

Major WILSON. Yes; but not on the scale 

sweet potatoes which do fairly well, but Barb

source of our supply. We have to get them ve

a large part of the colored men's rations. The 

of yams and sweet potatoes, and it keeps us hu

Mr. EsC. Put in more yams.

Major WILSON. Well, they cost more than sw

our supply from the West Indies. We run in ab

from Jamaica of yams, and two weeks' from Ba

and if we run short we supplement these with I

States. But to get back to the experimental ga

beans do very well here, parsley does fairly w

does exceedingly well, though they are a little 

very well, ali hough they do not get very large. 

to-night, and those tomatoes were grown in t

the rest of the plants go to top and seed. P

celery get bitter, and the cost of raising stuff is 

and other pests. As a whole, we only handle it 

or seasonings; we handle it more extensively w

are th wants missaries Isthmus on in white Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor The Major the food clsed. Escn. EscH. Escn. people trpart mess," CHAIRMAN. of WILSON. WILSON. wants WILSON. WILSON. WILsON. at the of all. From Or Can Do on the mn, and to anywhere the you For buy a negro; In We Oh, No; Yes; the Can a or negro gold sanitary the commute instance, do food yes. nxt do eating he for you commissaries? one side do not g else. for every night allow that? day in toand his if control rations the the I he$13 family he health them or $6 mess says, commissaany need worth on in purchasto is the he other sandany " buy notpurTocan of siw
PANAMA CANAL. 

large line of goods for the negro, and the truth is

hi

m

more discriminating purchaser than his white bro

bt

very best and wants it.

Mr. HUBBARD. The $6 does not include rations; i

t

purchases?

Major WILSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Where do you buy clothing, bo

Major WILSON. All boots and shoes are bought i

tU

most of them in Brockton and in Lynn, and a f

t

i

N

Orleans and in St. Louis, but most of them come f

M

Mr. HUBBARD. And clothing?

Major WILSON. We only have a small line of re

made by Hart, Schaffner & Marx, of Chicago. M

t

sold here is ordinary linen cloth; that is, we buy t

made up here. Cotton goods all come from the U

the linen from Belfast.

Mr. Escn. Will you please state who has the r

tb

t

commissary stores?

Major WILSON. Under the. regulations all emp

t

mission and of the Panama Railroad; and the A

m

through the request of the State Department and t

t

Panama Government; and the British minister

t

t

British foreign office; and the Peruvian ministe

t

chaplains and itinerant preachers, to whom we sel

b

for cash.

Mr. Escui. And the identification is the book?

Major WILSON. Yes; and the metal check fo

ministers have charge accounts. It is charged t

t

pay the bill, as they would the grocer at home.

Mr. Escdi. Is there any possibility of deception t

a check or commissary book to an outsider?

Major WILSON. Yes, Sir.

Mr. EscH. Is it in practice?

Major WILSON. I think it is practiced very lit

Mr. Escn. Is there any tendency for the Pan

ti

on that?

Major WILSON. Oh, yes; they like to get in, bu

t

take punishment got it for check $15. Government contented, nish the do Mr.ajor Mr.ajor up Mr.ajor in the awork the up entirely. the he little HUBBARD. HUBBARD. I HUBBARD. United catch WILSON. brains the WILSON. is WILSON. States, that energetic, in more is book to a them that Staes and maintain bad our Isand Punishable assistance In Yes, No; and Absolutely. if directive that way, at hands, your Government and he it it sir. confiscate Cristobal is is an has these as well-nourished opinion, absolutely a offense from the he violation, force as commissary $15 can a Because negroes two the misdemeanor? the for to itagainst book not maintain or is essential Panamaniathe check. but get absolutelthree and it body especialcanal, ithe storeshis is iI If timto panodreaotlmhnpTiuhibnnhttb
88 PANAMA CANAL.

nourished and provided for, in order that the U

m

a return for the money it pays them.

Mr. Escn. And you believe that that opinio

i

b

p

cally all the employees on the zone'?

Major WILsON. I know it is. I have had hu

m

t

me that if the commissary privileges were dis

t

w

not stay here two weeks.

Mr. Escn. The object of the Panama merc

t

t

stores is to secure that share of the trade?

Major WILSON. Yes; and particularly the ne

t

b

h

is helpless. Because they can carry him and 

h

charge him high prices, thus getting rich quic

T

in

people on the face of the earth that has a la

n

p

among them that does not have to look after th

Mr. Escn. In operating these hotels, so call

t

r

profit or a loss?

Major WILsON. Including this hotel here?

Mr. Escn. First take up the hotel here.

Major WILsoN. In the rainy season, which i

t

in the States, there is not much patronage at

h

i

run at a less, but in the winter season it makes 

l

m

T

last fiscal year it made $236; this year it has mad

m

t

m

.and lost three months. On the 1st of Janua

t

l

for six months was $391 ; that was last week, an

I w

p

t

this month all right.

Mr. Escu. Yes: we are here. Go on with th

Major W-ILSON. The Isthmian Canal Comm

h

it

summer months run along either breaking ev

m

l

money, so that when butter and eggs get high i

t

t

w

not be pinched, but will have a uniform diet. 

w

l

$1,000 this month, and at the end of the fisca

y

t

w

b

even. The Spaniards on their 40 cents per d

b

T

kitchens do a little better than that, and I 

l

their ration, so that whatever they have save

m

b

t

will get their share of at the end of the year.

Mr. Escn. To run this hotel, then, you a

t

higher rates at the other hotels?

,days Everything .so ees per this I them have get Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Major that on year, hotel. in a on Escn.a the little a in the. WiLsON. WILsON. WILSON. Wi!son. profit, little the and road the is Isthmian money, So I How food. I closed ask nest summer say have and this Absolutely. Oh, So Not do egg that andthat My that up hotel as tothe Canal no. at saved months, look to onhey i desire for the all; other is break th the Commission a absolutely up, had pro-fit this purpose. winter, The little June is hotels whenso even heard to tub $7,000 was that ahead books, serve when run? stands fruit at that distincto hotelsI the havunifdo and womaanbuanthibhhmtlilmjftfyI tvlhnflpftft
PANAMA CANAL. 

what prices are likely to be in the future in the Sta

cost of the meals to the one one-hundreth of a cen

Mr. KNOWLAND. How much higher are the prices 

than in the United States?

Major WILSON. It depends upon where you are.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Well, say beef.

Major WILSON. For roast beef we charge 22 ce

trim it a lot closer than anywhere in the East, and an

porterhouse has the tone cut out of it. In the S

sells the bone with the meat, but we cut the bone ou

we get half a ton or so we send it out to the Spanish 

up the soup, selling it at 1 cents per pound. I sh

prices here are the same as in the cities of New Y

Atlanta, Columbus, Ohio, and Indianapolis, etc.

Mr. RICnARDSON. On an average, are the price

commissary stores on the zone higher than those in 

cost of transportation?

Major WILSON. The retail prices in the States?

Mr. Escn. Yes.

Major WILSON. No, sir; on staple groceries we ar

t

in the States. I compared my prices with the 

Tilford, as given in their quarterly price list, and mi

than theirs, excepting one item in staple groceries.

Mr. IUBARiD. Are there sudden changes in price

articles; bcef, for example?

Major WILSON. It is a half cent up since the elec

Mr. HUBBARD. No change grater than that in y

Major WiLsON. I do not think I have made any c

of beef for two or three months.

Mr. HUBBARD. What variation has there been in 

during the last year?

Major WILSON. I have only been here six months

Mr. HUBBARD. What variation has there been in 

during the last month?

Major WILSON. On December 29 I sold mutton 

shoulder and neck at 7 cents; beef rib roast, short 

second cut, 19 cents; that is on the 29th of Dec

freight here? the price which October? porting Canal Whatfreight beef, Majorr. Majorr. MRyal I etc. RICHARDSON. Zone freight is RICHARDSON. have HUBBARD. you is provisions the WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. approximately Mail in paid here same did the thie Steam in you last price. There No, The No,and this Will lines 'What pay six sir; Panama book sir;upplies Packet $20,000 you have months-which you on none lines I is that?ell shipped have the been Company at between Railroad us per do retail all how not Have you month. no it in much over? price got changes the amount ship te carries Steamshiyou retail it Uniteon you over not hereth to rese
90 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is the difference i

on the Panama Steamship Line and the Pan

strikes into Colon or Panama?

Major WILSON. You mean the difference in 

r

New York to Colon the freight rate is $4.70 p

Mr. RICHARDSON. And from Colon to Pana

Major WILSON. The commissary freight ra

p

b

it is a postage-stamp rate. I pay $2.35 to Gatu

which is 42 miles.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What difference is there b

r

charged the Government and an ordinary con

Major WILsON. Absolutely none, so far as 

k

Mr. RICHARDSON. The Government pays jus

portation of its supplies?

Major WILSON. Yes, Sir. I get no differ

r

fact, I get a little cheaper rate from New Orl

Mr. RICHARDSON. Is there any difference 

Colon to Panama as to the Government and a

p

Major WILSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is it?

Major WILSON. I do not know what the lo

r

very well informed as to that. I think they p

$6 per ton on Cte freight, depending on tie 

p

postage-stamp rate from one end of the Isthm

Mr. RICHARDSON. Would that postage-sta

r

less than a distance rate?

.Major WILSON. I can not say as to that.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Does not most of your 

Major WILSON. No, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What is your largest dis

p

Major WILSON. The other side of Empire.

Mr. HUBBARD. Is that rate fixed so as to s

ter of convenience?

Major WILSON. It is a matter of conveni

make up the waybills for the railway compa

W

all our profits if we had to put in an accounti

the rates.

Panama? distinct I pect blieve, the everybody on ace pay Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor which people about paid, them HUBBARD. KNOWLAND. KNOWLAND. CUSHMAN. corporation? pay WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. they back and $5. on for $5, the can dlivery everything the East, So l1 Absolutely, I I Yes. same reight WhaYou compete object do pay it and is not on dobasis $10 is charged is I being I the know; not paid thnk get. the ardown excepting on dock shipto put freight by the the as it throwere, them? anything at on ifis Pacilic rate LatheiP$10 rate a on but thebaBoof toprbppp
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Escn. What arrangements have you on the 

boats for refrigeration?

Major WILSON. The Panama Railroad boats ar

limited extent to carry meats and vegetables. The 

b

which come here every two weeks, are equipped to ca

Most of these vessels come out of the Rio Flata t

were carrying frozen meats to Southampton. T

carrying bulk meats are ample. The New Orlea

Company carry vegetable refrigeration for banan

Paci'ic side there are no facilities at all.

Mr. EScH. You have refrigeration facilities on th

Major WILSON. Very fair, sir.

Mr. EscH. There is no trouble about deterioratio

Major WILSON. There is not trouble about deter

in the boxes at all. With vegetables we have some 

pretty tough climate on Temperate Zone vegetable

Mr. HUBBARD. Has there been any delay or com

transferring from the ship refrigerator to the shore 

Major WILSON. No, sir. The Royal Mail boat

twenty-four hours after they arrive, and we have to 

right away; if we do not, they go to sea.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Where do you get your cold-st

Major WILSON. Most of our meat comes from 

bought from Nelson Morris & Co. When it reache

transferred to the ship line, and when it reaches he

to me.

Mr. RIcHARDsON. Have you had any complaints a

Major WILSON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How quickly is that transfer m

storage car to the cold storage on the ship in New

MajorWILSON. I cannot say. They haul it in a w

The meat is subject to inspection and rejection her

The CHAIRMAN. flow long is required after the c

b

opened here before it is placed in the cold-storage 

Major WILSON. We load it into the refrigerator c

boxes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is done immediately? menced the loaded closed? hours. cld-storage or they.are two The Majoror The Mr.ajor Mr. nine navy vealCHAIRMAN. EscH. CHAIRMAN. HUBBARD. the to WILSON. days WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. here thoroughly in load cars, meats? six To frozen. about the and months. what Yes,Whate How Ys, Is I car hadve thaticed. three loaded When extent sir. sir; long percentage up them usually not and weeks until would out in do lst hiking they the you three loading done ago.a of itcars single will purchase across be that cars as We they is keep from quickly amou

quarteof the compopencoare nain thIbbb
92 PANAMA CANAL.

Major WILSON. I buy no native meat at a

chickens for the hospitals.

Mr. Escn. What kind of beef do you buy 

Co.?

Major WILSON. We have two grades; one o

finished steers, dressing 800 pounds, accord

tions. The other is a lighter weight beef b

specifications, except it is not required to be 

good medium steers from 600 to 650 pounds.

Mr. Escn. These might be steers from the 

Major WILSON. Yes; they might be. Some 

range cattle. But the big cattle must be 

It is a magnificent meat. You may go over 

if you wish to.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you pay for the f

Major WILSON. We buy our meat on a slidi

price is for live cattle on the hoof, paid in- Chi

by the secretary of the National Live Stoc

We pay for our light-weight meat, hind quar

the live-stock price delivered in New York, 

22 per cent less. On the whole carcass, it fi

in New York for the lighter-weight meat the 

in Chicago. If it is 8 cents in Chicago we pay 

carcass in New York.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever, in the last 

for cattle on the hoof in Chicago?

Major WILSON. Yes, sir; more than that. W

The CHAIRMAN. What did you pay during N

Major WILSON. $7.50.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you pay that with the 

your light weights?

Major WILSON. For the hind quarters, yes; 

the foie quarters. It brings it so that when be

live cattle-we pay $7.50 in New York for dre

'111e CHAIRMAN. That is for second-quality m

Major WILSON. Yes; and when it is $7.50 fo

we pay 20 per cent added, which would make 

carcass 9 thate private but hotel, cnts The Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. Major Panama same everywhere you Escn. Escn. and CHAIRMAN. Escn. I basis. meses? WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. as would get?that the Railroad, Now, Doo employees else pay is you they Ys,Absolutely. They Do Yes, in you they $72 Colon. as treat you sir. have are sir. forwell have go of mean the to employees that the as messes If the one commissary for commission? thehat carcass. same the hotel, andcarcass you Canal of mess. hotethe the pay anZj
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. BARTLETT. Do you buy liquors or whisky?

Major WILSON. We buy Bordeaux wine for the 

We give them cheap claret or a cheap wine twice a w

Mr. BARTLETT. Do you furnish any for the negroe

Major WILSON. No, sir.

Mr. EscH. Where do you buy your coffee?

Major WILsON. We buy Java and Mocha in New 

Rica and Central American coffees we buy here; San

from New York.

Mr. Esci-i. Do you buy any Porto Rican coffee?

Major WILSON. No, sir; not here.

Mr. BARTLETT. Do you buy tobacco of any sort?

Major WILSON. In the States we buy chewing, p

nary brands, like Bull Durham, and other well-

smoking tobacco, but the cigars and a good man

from Habana and Jamaica.

Mr. BARTLETT. You mean to say you buy no l

brandy, or sell them?

Major WILSON. No, sir; we are not in the liqu

buy a little brandy and sherry for the Tivoli Hotel 

Mr. BARTLETT. Do you buy any for the employe

Major WILSON. No, sir.

Mr. BARTLETT. When it becomes necessary for 

where do they get it?

Major WILSON. You can not throw a stone on th

hitting a beer bottle almost anywhere. If he is si

give it to him; he can get it at the nearest hospita

Mr. EsCH. Do you buy medical supplies?

Major WILSON. No, sir; nothing but food and ho

Mr. CUSHMAN. Give us a general idea of the p

standard articles, such as caps, boots, pants, and c

Major WILSON. We are furnishing ready-made w

suits at from $5 to $5.50. We sell Hart, Schaffn

made clothing at from $12 to $17; Belfast linen at 

80 cents per yard. We sell working shirts from 50 

a man wants to pay, and overalls from 60 cents t

as in the States. We sell the Hanan shoe, which 

the $2 when the of well-known thing statement regard M.ajorr M.ajorr in pofit States pric. the it they BARTLETT. BARTLETT. KNOWLAND. BARTLETT. to retails WILSON. WILSON. WILSON. Stateswe as other for of bought they or the $6, inwell-advertised lines? the do. frprice But Do How Because No, Yes; heresell I States $5.50. have you you There sir. at was of cn about $1.75, make clothing do we heard higher for you isThe not do 30 article. $6? a and a sell not pervy sellome Manhattan profit than that that the want themcent. large of at on is isHanan the home. t atnot about that? margia make shirtmen lossa shfa 
94 PANAMA CANAL.

Major WILSON. Well, a good many men h

b

hl

time, and they go back to the days when they wbhB

the cost of living has been running higher duritlyt

and a good many men make comparison wittp

years ago. A good many men come from th

p

f

where the best beef is exported. For instanc

iw

export the beeves weighing 1,600 to 1,700 pound

bwt

l

heifers. They compare corn-fed native steers wtph

and the fat cows they ate back there. I do ntph

are at all exorbitant. The refrigeration acco

it

year costs a whole lot of money.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Take New York as a point H

much higher is beef here than in New York?

Major WILSON. In the first place, it is p

h

t

because the New York butcher never cuts the b

t

m

and we always do. My butcher's bill here is ti

was in New York, and I eat the same kind of tTiv

little demand for cheap meat. For family tnwb

forequarters, except the ribs, and I do not brinibym

note in my price list soup meat at 8 cents and m

per pound. All that comes from the hind 

F

mutton sells at 9 cents and forequarter lamb 9 

The CHAIRMAN. Major, complaint is made t

w

p

parently are low it is sold in such quantities t

f

n

afford to buy it. What have you to say in retAf

instance, on ten or twenty pounds of roast is mtf

would choose to buy.

Major WILSON. Our limit on roasts is rib r

n

under 3 pounds; rib roast, short cut, not un

3 > p

ti

about the weight of a good porterhouse steakt

he can buy, but not less than 31 pounds. T

t

comes along and wants to buy one-half pound p

that is, butchering up and spoiling one of t

f

p

steaks, as you know there are only five porter

ib

There is no fixed rule in regard to things of tkRa

man ordered a 1 -pound roast. He signed himV

told him that if he would design a roast that w

p

we not money wats would at Panama obliged commissary thing of The Major The Major Colonel 6 that would sell and brought CHAIRMAN. a drop CHAIRMAN. out anything and to WILSON. steak. WILSON. 61 Railroad cut GOETHALS. of reimburse the cents. the and your it to price operating for Mutton but laundry, the Ys, ToThen Is sales him. Chopsompany mutton of keep it Isthmus Right the sir; mutton or it the got socosts werePanama would to even. and chops. purose that down here, keepand owns down they chops. I be figure makes even? sold lwRailroad I a are I the to of steak? would had in toout I 20 suppoa your comput theOcstato cethfmtkI tItlI rhtmlttwfttb
PANAMA CANAL. 9

Major WILSON. Our object here is to keep our f

c

d

low as possible and dig the canal. I do not make 

mb

I can not lose any. When I say I need the money, I m

cn

lose any, and I give the very best service I can i

tk

people contented and happy, so that they will stadh

dig the canal

(The committee thereupon adjourned until to-m

T

January 7, 1909, at 9 o'clock a. m.)

HOT

T

Ancon, Canal Zone, Thursday, J

1

The committee met at 9 o'clock a. in.

Present: Messrs. Hepburn (chairman), Stevens, E

Kennedy, Knowland, Hubbard, Richardson, and B

Also present: Col. George W. Goethals, U. S. AMA

Devol, U. S. Army; Mr. Joseph Bucklin Bishop, ot

commission, and others.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOSEPH BUCKLIN B

Mr. STEVENS. What is your name and official po

Mr. Bisnor. Joseph Bucklin Bishop, secretary o

tc

Mr. STEVENS. How long have you been connect

wtc

mission in that capacity?

Mr. BISHOP. Since September, 1905.

Mr. STEVENS. How long have you been upon th

I

Mr. Bisiop. I have been upon the Isthmus sin

A

before that I made visits to the Isthmus every few m

Mr. STEVENS. What is the nature of your work i

c

w

your office?

Mr. BisHor. Well, in addition to the secretary w

I 

vise the publication of the Canal Record, a: d I i

c

plai s of employees under direction of the chairm

Mr. STEVENS. In what way do these complai ts c

ty

Mr. Bisnop. Usually in the form of a letter to th

c

w

is forwarded Mr. STEVENS. to me That with directions to investigate. food; your man gation? or treatment branches submit before M. from making office BsHop. STEVENS. Bisnor. STEVENS. BISHOP. sometimes STEVENS. me. a organizations? of list in with the(See a thof complaint, They Yes. From work the In What Are complaints, troubles appendix, mess what various cover yu individuals are is is rooms; to the way in the covered, with say,a classes No. close with very gneral letter do sometimes if heads 152.) entirely. complaints touch any wide theirincluding of is nature employees turned employee of field. disposition

on departmabout accounof laboreover comeSomcomon wttctyfifitqotNnIthcotitI
96 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. BISHOP. Yes. A great many of them 

plaints, and after I have talked freely with th

t

them. I an sure no complaints have been m

Mr. STEVENS. In your dealings with emphy

noticed concerning the loyalty and the inter

t

the general scope and nature of the work?

Mr. Bishop. In answer to that I will go bac

t

I came down here. There was then waiting 

plaints that had not been investigated, an

t

months I gave up a large part of my time to 

t

plaints, but within the last six months or more t

h

b

a complaint. I have had five or six durin

tp

inference from this is that there is a great deal 

than there was \Vhen I first came down her

t

months there has been an almost complete a

serious dissatisfaction.

Mr. STEVENS. What interest do the emp

t

success of the work?

Mr. BisHop. Very great, always.

Mr. STEVENS. Do you find any enthusiasm t

Mr. Bisiop. Yes, generally.

Mr. STEVENS. What do you know about the 

t

ees in general to the project and to their offi

Mr. BISHOP. It is practically unanimous.

Mr. STEVENS. In what way?

Mr. BIsHOP. The complaints are general

p

would make complaints anywhere. They a

t

have them in the United States, and they are 

r

ated by their own witnesses.

Mr. STEVENS. So that we can depend that

t

employees of the commission are enthusiastic t

to the project and to the chief in charge of th

Mr. Bisnop. That is the situation exactly.

Mr. STEVENS. Have any complaints comtyy

knowledge, that there are fatal defects in the 

tp

Mr. BISHOP. None, whatever; they would h

t

Mr. STEVENS. No; but if employees discu

t

pt

subject, would you official general you civil Mr. by esteem administration? BISHOP. BIsHOP. BISHOP. STEVENS. BISHOP. STEVENS. Bishop. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. not action employees? purpose and that it were your on It Notne, To It reach of Hasve If Hasve your dissatisfied would never the report official any i that you? that whatever. work part? any youyou complaints has. be it ever duty heard subject way likely came immediately any onbeen thato account connection of to to. do? been any of you done? I would a such from of serioto discuththwtpttrtt
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. BIsHor. None whatever.

Mr. STEVENS. Where are the records of the comm

Mr. Bisi-op. They are kept in the different departm

ment keeps its own records. I have the library o

t

I had in Washington, and I keep the records of my 

Mr. STEVENS. Have you any connection with the r

ble organizations, such as the Y. M. C. A.?

Mr. BISHOP. Yes; I am a member of the advisory 

directs the operation of the clubhouses as carried on b

t

MA

Mr. STEVENS. What, in your judgment, is the effe

t

and maintenance of those clubhouses?

Mr. BIsHor. Most excellent. I will go further t

t

that they are absolutely necessary to the contentm

t

f

and, consequently, to its efficiency.

Mr. STEVENS. What, if any, complaints come t

y

their maintenance and method of operation?

Mr. BISHOP. None whatever. The men seem to b

they are even content with the mild restrictions in th

houses on Sundays; that is, stopping certain games

T

plaint we have is that there are not more of these 

think there should be more.

Mr. STEVENS. Where would you place the additio

Mr. BisHOP. We have recommended four-one 

Las Cascadas, one at Paraiso or Pedro Miguel, and 

A

Mr. STEVENS. And where are those now in existe

Mr. BISHOP. In Culebra, Empire, Gorgona, and C

Mr. STEVENS. What do they cost, each?

Mr. Bisnor. I think, completely furnished, the l

$35,000. We have recommended for smaller plac

l

ones.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you anything to do with disbu

Mr. BisHor. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. Anything to do with the departm

Mr. BIsHOP. No, sir.

Mr. EscH. You say you had the first hearing of 

Mr. Bisnor. Yes; such as were referred to me b

t

Mr. EscH. Has any complaint come to you re

ductors? January for before President commission, one meeting or Mr. before does it representative 70178-PAN a EscH. BISOr.IsHo Esc. BISHOP. Escn. the special the on17. the approved; Secretary Sunday commission one So Incmmission? It board Yes;. Not CAN-09-7 that washat dealing of of the because athat referred thate mter in ofway, all. craft recognize with accordance War, immediate is, then, now the isre to complaints which in which meen pding;rocess labor must should by higher with are the the the organizationcomplaints of be at from the Secretary official. the complaichairmaadjustmwork one plan hearthe repoilbhWtbWhtyby
98 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. Bisiop. They come generally in the fo

complaining person; a letter to the chairman 

Mr. EscH. Are the men encouraged to perso

ances to the commission?

Mr. Bisuop. They are. Notices are posted 

commissaries that if employees have any cause 

be sent to me.

Mr. ESCH. Then they have not got to go thr

nor through your immediate superior, but hav

to the chairman of the commission?

Mr. BisHop. Yes.

Mr. Escn. And you two are those who hear 

as I understand it?

Mr. Bisnor. Yes. I may say that formerl

complaints from the foreign laborers, Spania

ing serious ever from the West Indians; but th

dissatisfaction with food and with money com

payment, which arose from speaking differ

have almost all disappeared, and we have n

mess houses, and a very few about the settlem

Mr. Escn. Are only American citizens consi

of the eight-hour law?

Mr. Bisior. Yes; I think that is so.

Mr. EscH. Are any exceptions advisable to 

Mr. Bisnor. I would rather you would ask 

Mr. Escn. Did the French publish a weekl

Mr. Bisnor. They published a monthly ma

got the idea for the Record. It is the only 

which we have now for French excavation, et

De Lesseps through his financial troubles used 

organ to advance his schemes and eulogize him

divers entirely. We have a rule not to put 

praising any official connected with the com

element is completely eliminated.

Mr. ESCH. Any advertising?

Mr. BisHOP. None whatever.

Mr. EsCH. What is the plan of distribution 

Railroad it the lication? tion which stimulated vious whatof Mr. Mr.fo communication Isthmus. with toheBisnor. 5 Major Esc.scn. BisHOP. EscH. Bisnor. Bisnor. cents its receives the men wholesome publication Devol Wh Is VAhat publication at I Every Th Yes; I in that submit the a think another free has whatever. is can commission news itnhe gold chargeopy. is you rivalry it charge a the head. and uer is statement stands. employee division say men very distribution of If of Now, between as printing the in the great. he an toAbout one were Quartermwishes the which employeby of immedithe divisibenethe publofficI doiof 10cothan c
PANAMA CANAL. 

work of each division, especially that done by 

dredges, a healthy rivalry has been aroused whic

efficiency of the men.

Mr. Escn. I can see that it would be a very v

the transmission of orders and things of that kind

Mr. BisHOP. Yes, it is; and for purposes of ref

universally in the offices as a reference book. Th

the use of its columns for what we call the "Woman

it has encouraged the growth of that movement, 

great deal for the contentment of the families on 

Mr. STEVENS. I hold in my hand an extract fro

Journal of December 19, 1908, in which it is state

officers could inform the commission a great d

hardships of the foreign laborers. Has anything 

cerning that?

Mr. BisHop. I think I could inform the consu

than they could inform us.

Mr. STEVENS. Have they conferred with you?

Mr. BIsHor. Yes; they confer with me consta

The commission has employed a man exclusivel

European laborers. He speaks several Europea

in touch all the time with the consular agents.

Mr. STEVENS. What do you do when a foreign 

you?

Mr. BIsHor. I turn the matter over to this spe

Mr. STEVENS. What does he do?

Mr. BIsHor. He goes to the man, he hears t

then makes a formal report to me.

Mr. STEVENS. What do you do then?

Mr. Bisnor. I bring the matter to the attention 

division, or of the chairman, with recommendatio

desirable to pursue in order to remedy the evil, if 

Mr. STEVENS. This newspaper statement also 

the head of the English church there." Have the 

conferred with you?

Mr. BIsHor. Yes; a great deal.

Mr. STEVENS. So that foreign laborers feel th

either the consul or the church and get in touch w

deal they plaints plaint the ama various I who They over a railroad spoke Mr. next of for are swamps, are BIsHor. about STEVENS. STEVENS. BisHor. trouble. whatever foreign himself of: forced day employed charged train." "Why, the and and None consuls? to Yes; food thatHve I He to said exorbitant pay are now Have in these make said at whatever. he the hrobbed digging fancy you a read found new would any to Jamaicans Spanish now. anyme rentals another prices camp such and at the abe difficulties few I that browbeaten consulmpaints glad canal that asked forr and weeks statement camp. shacks to everythinwas have othr him formerget on ago estabcomthe thevto noWtf
100 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. BisHop. None whatever; they never hav

TWI

have given us very little trouble.

Mr. STEvENS. How much truth is there in t

Mr. BISHOP. Not one particle.

Mr. STEVENS. Do you know that personally?

Mr. BISHOP. Yes.

Mr. STEVENS. Have any complaints come to y

it

r

Mr. BisHop. None.

Mr. STEVENS. If they had, you would have ki

tigated it?

Mr. Bisnop. Yes.

Mr. BARTLETT. Have you a hospital at Colon

Mr. BISHOP. Yes.

Mr. BARTLETT. Have you had complaints fro

n

t

Mr. BisHOP. Yes; I have had some.

Mr. BARTLETT. Recently?

Mr. BISHOP. Not within the last six months.

Mr. BARTLETT. The reason for my inquiry is t

handed me a letter. Do not you know of any re

Mr. BISHOP. They have not been referred to m

Mr. BARTLETT. Now, in reference to the eight

lD

the skilled laborers work longer?

Mr. BISHOP. That is outside of my jurisdictio

Mr. BARTLETT. And you decline to have any 

except through individuals?

Mr. Bisnop. I have never had occasion to t

has that to do, but they always come from indi

Mr. BARTLETT. Have you had any complaint

t

punishment for misdemeanor or small offenses?

Mr. BisuHop. No; I have had one complaint a

t

decision of the court, but I have no jurisdic

t

T

belongs to a separate department. We simply swhnt

do about that; that is the judicial department.

Mr. BARTLETT. No com, laint about discrimi

ftp

ment of foreign laborers; anything of that sort?

Mr. BISHOP. None whatever.

LIST missal was treatment. recommended complains complains of satisfied. plains John August, Harry Geoge fightingiven given OF of justifiable, A. COMPLAINTS A. B. unjust free rgarding regarding 1907. in opportunity Weaver, St. Investigation Halloran, office, transportation for Claire, Johntreatment promotion. and etc., his tmekeeper, OF his timekeeper, O'Brien, clerk, bcause discharge. GOLD to and discharge. MAY showed obtain in to division that EMPLOYEES regard the of Gorgona 14, division his dvision his a States. 1908. Investigatimisundersttransfer, of Investigaunsound dismissato municishopspromFROM of of mmATuhihmhhwjHhecI
PANAMA CANAL. 

showed him worthy of promotion, and the same 

and given.

August 13, 1907. Samuel B. Harry, division of 

tion, claims he was discriminated against by his ch

allow him to transfer to another department. In

transfer finally given him, so case dismissed, this 

grievance.

August 17, 1907. Joseph M. Tighe, clerk, La B

plains of ill treatment and reduction in rank an

shown to have been-justifiable, and lie was contin

position.

August 19, 1907. J. H. Dowell, trainman, c

treatment in regard to his discharge. Investiga

temnber 24, that his dismissal was justifiable.

September 5, 1907. Albert C. Tall, carpenter, 

construction, complains of his discharge owing 

force. Recommendation made for his reemplo

given hi.

September 23, 1907. W. R. Cole, locomotive 

of being excluded from commission hotel at Ga

conduct. Hotel's treatment found justifiable, b

lowed privileges of the hotel in November, 1907

himself verbally as satisfied with the verdict.

September 23, 1907. Case of Robert L. Good

account of refusal to support wife. As result of i

ing that his wife was intemperate and not worthy 

given clearance papers by the chairman and ree

September 24, 1907. William Clarke, carpente

treatment by commission hotels at Las Cascada

ports of Labor, Quarters, and Subsistence Depar

there had been no unjust treatment.

October, 1907. A. J. Tuttle protests against 

discharge found justifiable, and his request for a c

mended.

October, 1907. W. J. Thomas, engineer, cold-

tobal, complains of his discharge. Dismissal fo

j

he is recommended for other employment, which 

showing tion, against on removal that construction, mus fiable, machinery, discharge. Lawrence October October November, November November November account legal before complains but histhat from to authorities 6, five-day Golke 31, investigation cf complains Investigation reply 1907. 5, 13, his who 1907. failure lands of 1907. 11907. 1907. discharge given unjust was to lay George Cecil forming cfommunications. state CsHermann Chas. c Johncf discharged, ff position Jcrdan completed. discharge, McCalla without unjust finally Bourliame, was his of Lawrence, Jordan, part Will claim justifiable, to GAlke, at discharge. pay. claims dropped attend of lower invstigated. A. etc. is Gorgona machinist, carpenter, Gilmere, division division without Investigacompenswages. October the case en samDisacwcofj
102 PANAMA CANAL.

November 21, 1907. William B. Newbold re

for lcss of registered letter containing $25. Dir

advises that the matter has been taken up w

inspector, Washington, D. C.

November 23, 1907. Miss J. E. Burns, nurse, 

plains cf unjust discharge. Complaint withdra

tien concluded.

November 25, 1907. Henry Anderson, carpen

ing construction, claims that he was injured whi

month of June, 1907, so that lie was uable to co

he was refused "sick" or "injury leave " pay. J

of his department advises that as Anderson ma

of injury, and that as he did not possess a doctor

not be paid for such time, doctor's certificate bein

cases.

November 27, 1907. Percy W. Davis, cle

mechanic, Gorgona, complains of unjust treatme

motion. December 4, 1907, Mr. Davis advised 

tion was not made, because the same was not 

chief.

December 3, 1907. Miss Eva Blanche Ramer, 

complains of unjust discharge. Investigation a

Miss Ramer that she be permitted to withdraw 

December 5, 1907. John Wilson, ex-employe

referred to Major Sibert. No papers in our file s

December 5, 1907. Mrs. J. F. Agnew, nurse, A

pVains of ill treatment and of being asked to 

December 11 case turned over to chief sanitary 

December 20, 1907. F. E. Parker, assistant fo

plains that colored employees are unfairly tr

Miguel commissary. January 31, 1908, result of 

no just cause for the complaint.

December 20, 1907. John C. Webber, carpent

ing construction, complains of unjust discharg

and of ill treatment while in Ancon hospital. 

been ill treated. Webber left the Isthmus befo

pleted. for was not commissary plains in hisad office, of engineering, complete courts December December March April ill not reinstatement. showing assaulting no refused, treatment Empire, of paying are authority 28, harsh 5,1908. investigation, entirely 1908. satisfactorily 24, any 24, being claims him who treatment a by 1907. grounds 1907. laborer. Joseph to Bart the forwas independent contrary pay Jnuary back CharlesL. commissary. time N. Frank discharged his A. him by forCarrick, to commutation. case Ferguson, April lost Mr. zone t an for 4, R. Higgins, commission being whileexception of lost 19V8, Higgins. courts, 30 ex-employee, Bishop, on each January time. forem advised account unsustain

attending advised carpntother also inclerkClaim an, rulhiby 8, othL
PANAMA CANAL. 

May 14, 1908. Joseph A. Ferguson, La Boca divis

c

t

h

should receive pay for difference in time from the 

h

w

f

directed by the Washington office to sail for the Istht

six days later, on which he was given transportatio

t

Isthmus. Advised that his "terms of employme

p

t

employees shall receive pay only from actual dat

from the United States.

SUPPLEMENTARY LIST OF COMPLAINTS OF GOLD E

F

MAY 15, 1908, TO JANUARY 7, 190

May 26, 1908. John E. Wilson, Pacific division

L

B

c

plains of unjust discharge. Investigation showed n

for the complaint.

August 11, 1908. Jos. M. Tighe, Pacific divisio

L

B

c

plains of unjust discharge, and that he was not give

c

p

Investigation showed that his discharge was just

h

w

given transportation to the States.

September 5, 1908. Daniel J. O'Connor, Pacific 

LB

complains he was discharged without being given th

f

n

Investigation showed that his discharge was justi

September 18, 1908. Edward Christman, car-repa

complains about being discharged, and requests t

b

r

Investigation showed that his discharge, on accou

was justified; and he was not reinstated.

October, 1908. William H. Anderson, Jeremiah 

A

H

W

lace, I. G. Hill, J. S. Johnson, and M. McGrath, 

w

i

t

Panama railway shops, Cristobal, complained 

against them, and of unjust discharge. As a resu

t

i

tion their discharge was sustained, but no objecti

m

t

obtaining reemuloyment with Panama Railroad o

t

c

December, 1008. C. C. Barnett, secretary of com

I

conductors, Las Cascadas, Canal Zone, presents a l

of the conductors. Case pending, arrangements b

m

f

hearing on Sunday, January 17, 1909.

CANAL RECORD STATEMENT.

The paper, 33,450 and Washington 1908. and officials Company. of bound, Members ries, The Of taverage makingabout libraries the year firstcopies, volumes There composition, with andof total 10,000 1,500 year the There employees the number a office were of at complete number will net House colleges, full of 21 were were of published cost the be cnts, published and setsthe distributed distributed of also Canal alphabetical $5,512.25, printed of technical printing commission the Rpresentatives, making the sent in commission Record weekly 52 all to 1,800 issues in was total each schools, or during the incex. the was a for was Washingtowere $6,349.22. little week receipts of States distribuand complethee 12,000enginenewspsent The lesson yeathe yeaftA2cTtTwtwtit IPRtcwhblptpl
104 PANAMA CANAL.

leading engineers and others professionally in

struction. The others will be distributed am

of the commission on the Isthmus for referenc

The cost in salaries paid for collecting and 

in the Canal Record during the year was $3

the cost of publishing given above, wrakes the 

$8,912.97, or a little more than 1 cent a copy.

STATEMENT OF MAJ. C. A. DEVOL, 

Mr. Escn. What is your name and official 

Major DEVOL. C. A. Devol, chief quarterm

Canal Commission.

Mr. EscH. How long have you been in th

mission?

Major DEVOL. Since July 15 last. I arri

assumed charge of what was labor, quarters, 

the subsistence department eliminated.

Mr. Escn. You now have jurisdiction over 

Major DEvOL. I now have jurisdiction ove

quarters and the material and supply depa

material and supply department on the 1st 

taken the labor and quarters on July 15, con

and supplies with the labor and quarters port

and subsistence department.

Mr. EsCn. Let us consider supplies first. W

consist of principally that you have to purch

commission?

Major DEVOL. They consist of all supplie

and engineering of the canal.

Mr. EscH. Where are those supplies purchas

Major DEVOL. In the United States alm

exception of a few supplies that are purchased 

are very inconsiderable.

Mr. Escn. What do those supplies amoun

annually, if you have any amount?

Major DEvOL. Last year, in rough figures

mitted chasing tuted all chases, chases sip whoRailroad purchases Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor parts Company now EsCe. EsC. by EsCH. where to where officDEVOL. DEvOL. DEVOL. of Company requisitions acts the supplies the Anywhere And How the in the chairman in as Washington In United There Almost emergency New you advertising agent do also Washington; purchase you haveere York;> else? is for for of entirely. States, a purchase, the which, purchasing branch theis is connected and is etirely greater Isthmian Washington approval cut except yes. they before in The competitidown Newopen agts througmethadverwith on Canaand beinto Yomc
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Esci-i. Did you not formerly have purchasi

iN

Orleans and on the Pacific coast?

Major DEVOL. There is one at New Orleans n

p

under the Panama Railroad Company and thI

Commission.

Mr. ESCH. What are your shipping ports in the U

Major DEVOL. Largely from New York, Newpo

N

Mobile, Galveston, and Portland. Lumber is 

ft

southern coast and supplies shipped from New t

extent, but such supplies from New Orleans are m

supplies with which I have no connection.

Mr. Escn. Your lumber purchases are from wh

Major DEVOL. From the northwest Pacific coast

t

States. 

Mr. EscH. What percentage of all supplies cotN

York?

Major DEVOL. Well, I can only make a rough I 

say 75 per cent.

Mr. Esc. Is that because the supplies can be pn

New York or because your steamships sail from New Y

Major DEVOL. Yes; because the Panama Railr

from New York.

Mr. EscH. Is that the controlling factor or ayi

largely by the railroad rates in the United State

t

point?

Major DEVOL. The arrangement of the shippin

l

with the purchasing office in New York; it is not um

and I can not state authoritatively what governs t

I p

all smaller supplies and supplies which are in a 

to constitute a ship's cargo; the controlling fact

iw

running a steamship line from New York. Wti

sufficient to form a shipload it would not be the fiwb

sent from any port the most economical. Our 

w

are called " c. i. f.," almost entirely, which is the sfb

this port. Of course it is the shipper's responsib

i

rt

shipping; he pays the freight.

Mr. Escn. In advertising contracts it is left optw

sh by 60 port wants deliver on at iments Major Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Coln per Mr. a Panama the vessel Esci.n. EsCH. EscH. to. cent. goods DEVOL. DEVOL. DEVOL. goods DEVOL. or by La of Railroad Do And You If at Dynamite, the American Boca, should y Colon I Oh, NoI No hehave Royal exercise have know yes; coulduld sir. way and steamers? be or never no register, which Mail Panama it that shipped to what use no doubt make simply prevent calculated means control and is percentage foreign a would he a from? cheaper mns the large contract could. he that, whatever United bottom tha, can he we itm than of getthat puadverwith your but herFra thif it oI ciftwhthftrtkwiI b
106 PANAMA CANAL.

tramp steamers, and all heavy structural steel 

c

comes in tramp steamers. In my estimate I do n

i

purchased by the Panama Railroad Company

t

p

c

entirely.

Mr. EscH. When the goods arrive at Panam

y

supplies given a postage-stamp rate or a distanc

r

b

t

P

Railroad?

Major DEVOL. We get a flat rate.

Mr. EscH. What is that average per ton?

Major DEVOL. I do not know. A flat rate 

p

m

was entered by authority of the commission f

t

by the Panama Railroad of all Isthmian Cana

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by a f

r

Maj6r DEVOL. So much per month.

Colonel GOETHALS. We pay the Panama R

p

t

for shipments to all points-to Colon or Panam

t

i

points a ton of freight costs the commission $2.2

F

c

gravel, which we get in carload lots, we pay the f

r

t

object being to keep the Panama Railroad al

t

t

allowing it to make no more money than the c

it

make. The rate is arranged between the commi

t

P

Railroad, the members of the commission bein

t

Panama Railroad.

Mr. Escn. Have you figured out, Colonel, w

t

p

stamp rate would develop a greater revenue to t

r

than the flat rate?

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not know whether t

he

b

f

ured out. The rate now paid by the Panama Ra

w

rate at the close of 1906, and each year the ea

tP

Railroad are carefully looked into and if we con

i

t

rate is changed.

Mr. RICHARDSON. How many of the Panam

c

interested in the Pacific transportation?

Colonel GOETHALS. None, so far as I know.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What powder and what d

in

b

used on the Isthmus, Major?

Major DEVOL. 45-60 per cent dynamite, p

f

t

my Du which ing purchased plies but willgive inspected taken Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Pont nw;own all be are it RICHARDSON. will RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. to our a by jurisdiction DEVOL. inspected DEVOL. Powder about final the here. run by advertisements the you storehouse to inspection one Isthmian As All Yes. Com It September and by is million long Washat and our pany. an ow made where pay. agent as the supplies long there Canal and ispection, read pounds I under primarily is contract have have of We itithat and Commission the made? is which been th have per they not inspected final purchasinif secured in amountmonth. here. any, acceparrive had the insplot iUtoThwrbbtiNYtIWuifMHbiu
PANAMA CANAL. 

directly to the various divisions upon arrival, and 

called an "inspection call;" it goes with the co

action by the consignee, this inspection call com

bill from the dealer is then completed by me, eithe

a notation goes back to the United States.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You have found that that sy

factorily?

Major DEVOL. Very satisfactorily. Under this s

to be very few complaints. We make a number 

in the majority of cases we have no difficulty in 

settled.

Mr. RICHARDSON. How large a force have you u

on the Isthmus?

Major DEvOL. Practically 3,000; I have 272 gold 

are what are called silver men.

Mr. RIcHARDSON. And have you storehouses or 

the Isthmus?

Major DEvOL. Yes; the main storehouse is at 

which the property accountability of all propert

Isthmus is taken up. Every article -which comes 

and the accountability begins there and ends wit

signee and disposition of the property on the wor

other main storehouses, one at Empire and one at G

carries a stock that will run perhaps $850,000 or $

carries a stock of about $500,000. The entire stoc

at present amounts to a little over $3,000,000.

Mr. RICHARDSON. So that you can trace the 

any given article from the time it reaches Colon 

actual use?

Major DEVOL. Yes, sir. We have placed recen

proval of the Secretary of War, a physical sy

accountability which has been taken up since m

mapped out largely on the loose-leaf ledger system 

cessful in the Quartermaster's Department in th

By that system every article has a page showing a 

of that article. Each accountable officer has this 

and they make their entries with the carbon proc

have there, used dos of all must held position. Majr.or Majorr. Major six accountable in not responsible? to check or months RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. because the add DEVOL. DEVOL. obtain Quartermaster's to against the this appropriations in officers The It Yes, No, carbons the a bcomes each Supposing Is How Yu system sir. last sir. Quartermaster's he use arother accountable under do are , Department Some of a the you checked. sent cover chargeost an in bond? same enforce my article of to keeping the my theoffice. officer against systemDepartmenin All different is office yourdetails the not onthe who practtheir armythe accandccdha
108 PANAMA CANAL.

article goes into the work, and it must be cha

portion of the work of which it becomes a part

to the physical accountability there has to be 

Mr. RICHARDSON. In your experience while 

percentage, if any, of the articles have not bee

in amount or value ?

Major DrVOL. I can not arrive at a percent

system was inaugurated since my arrival. 

October 1, 1908. Previous to this time there 

ability. We have changed from the financial 

system. After I get an audit on these returns 

1st of January, there will be some data from w

that question.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Is the loss inconsiderable

Major DEVOL. In my opinion it is entirel

reason, there is no place for the disposition of 

Mr. HUBBARD. Are inventories made perio

the stock of these warehouses?

Major DEvOL. I have a man constantly o

inventory man." He goes from one storehous

what we call a test inventory. He will take o

articles and calls for stock cards on these art

through the stock and check those articles, an

radically wrong he will report the matter to m

complete inventory. I have inventoried sinc

every storehouse on the Isthmus; some of th

article; some were not so good.

Mr. EsCH. Are your assistants army officer

Major DEVOL. I have two assistants-one, 

is an army officer, and another, Captain Nixo

storehouse, who is also in the army.

Mr. EsCi. You purchase the steel rails used 

Major DEVOL. They are purchased in the Un

Mr. EscH. Through the Panama Railroad C

Major.DEVOL. No; through the Washington 

Mr. ESCH. Have you had any complaints c

with reference to the method of advertising fo

California. United in lantic steamship about their again, I onr did believe Majorr. Majorr. Major a not the not fair poducts side. EsCH. a the EsCH. given other States hav share DEVOL. twenty-five DEVOL. DrvO. that res line a The sid. What the Has of lately fair on here between lie the California None Pacific transportation There t there shawith dd When busiess Mr. day against ground since theythe has Mail Schwerin California in schedule, been I has thePacific was I been arisesix on Steamship have that anysale claimed the facilities (lays in from? is considerabland Mail, and Sanbeen they zone, complaint of making on either it that Francthe Compthere herewere thatthe one wilCt
PANAMA CANAL. 

up with Mr. Schwerin, who is the general manager 

t

P

M

Steamship Company. I was then the local agent of t

I

Commission, making a few purchases. I asked hi

ih

c

n

make the same rate as on the Atlantic coast, whi

w

$

a t

his rate was $8 a ton; he said he could not make th

r

b

t

business on the canal was very inconsiderable; that i

d

n

to anything, and that if he made a rate of $5 a ton i

w

h

t

apply to all his freight shipments here, and it wou

n

p

j

t

get the little business in connection with the canal. B

I t

recently he has made a rate.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Last night the statement was m

t

p

chases made by you were made delivered at Panam

o

c

if any special rate was made you would not know i

b

t

w

be able to bid that much lower.

Major DEvOL. This line would have to compete t

d

b

over there.

Mr. KENNEDY. That line would have to compe

w

t

lines if they wanted to do the business?

Major DEVOL. Yes.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Did Mr. Schwerin say anything 

m

rate of that amount provided a sufficient amount o

m

supplies was purchased there?

Major DEVOL. No, sir. He said the business w

n

w

the reduction; we did not go into the possible futu

I r

t

conversation.

Mr. KNOWLAND. He did not say he would make t

ri

ficient amount of supplies was purchased?

Major DEVOL. No; but I take it for granted he w

Mr. CUSHMAN. With special reference to lumb

commodities do you have charge of the lumber pu

Major DEvoL. Yes, sir.

Mr. CUsHMAN. How many different kinds of Jumb

d

nm

grades but kinds-do you purchase?

Major DEvOL. We purchase a large number of kin

Mr. CUSHMAN. I refer to southern pine, fir, and 

kinds of lumber.

Major DEVOL. We purchase long and short leaf yel

p

c

instance, cluding for There Atlantic shed. Oregon for by was of Majorr. Majorr. Majorr. the the fir. car discriminated CUSHMAN. CUSHMAN. CUSHMAN. is commission lumber They repairs. the fir, DEVOL. DEvOL. one division one and possibility specified reason w interests we There FromYes, Where And Some put brought against called purchase for yellow in the sir; of the of complaints may it adoes exclusively those fir Oregon which to requisition entirely. in Southern pine comes my have the a the insmall came or attention and advertising yellow the have beenfir.rom States. for for Washington Northwest amount up Well, yellow the been some pine latly. where Pacificallinnowof commadtimcaspinphtlfntmMtlfbFeibotkFitfctinp
110 PANAMA CANAL.

to get the fir but in the Northwest. He sai

required." It was then advertised that way. 

to get any fir from the Northwest down to th

p

h

plaint from the division engineer who mad

r

other clay asking for this hmter. From th

h

fir, the earliest delivery secured from Was

M

whereas all the other material was assemb

h

That means it will be March before he can g

Mr. CUSHMAN. It would seem to me that 

p

being a staple for use in the cement sheds, 

b

advance xvith almost the same amount of cert

the purchase of cement.

Major DEVOL. In this particular case I do 

k

Major Sibert for a cement shed, and I do n

k

information he had, but it called for immedi

know why; I presume the plans were formul

h

r

to the cement shed, but in the general supply o

h

time to give the Pacific coast a chance to b

La Boca dock was so congested last month w

that we could not turn around for a month.

Mr. CUSHMAN. I did not mean to apply any 

b

I would only call your attention to the fact tha

made to me with considerable severity somet

Major DEvOL. In all general supplies we hav

and have lumber here now to last for some 

h

had too much lumber; we have been congeste

have now more than we can handle. I just m

you can not count less than four months if 

h

that is why we take yellow pine instead of fir

Mr. CUSHMAN. Has yellow pine any adva

struction over fir?

Major DEVOL. No, sir; it has not, except i

b

Mr. CUSHMAN. Do you think the long-lea

p

b

timber superior to Douglas fir?

Major DEVOL. I am not an expert on mat

k

b

know when I built docks the long-leaf yellow p

factory where you wanted great strength and 

Mr. CUSHMAN. Well, the Douglas fir is assu

b

especially inadequate from When it. would .beansthe storage arranged are will andMr.ajor Mr. not cmmissary We the met th KNOWLAND. Major KNOWLAND. were gt ofnearly goods DEVOL. arranged Pacific to for the commissary the at printed turn Wilson bridgeLa conditions come storage as coast? department, This him Boca, much so Is Ito timbers. down camethat over understand it fact facilities. be sup-plies which as a without delivered here if fact on a onbtains. wrehouse they the but the renders that he at Pacific additional could They thatere had other La inthe We it New Boca that adverthere are storeare side.hip less side arnmYnuhbbp
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major DEVOL. That is in Major Wilson's provinc

to do with that. That is subsistence supply.

Mr. HUBBARD. Are printing supplies in your dep

your jurisdiction?

Major DEVOL. Yes; there are two printing plan

and one in Colon. One is under my jurisdiction a

the Panama Railroad Company. We are now arr

the two and to place the entire plant at Colon, whic

depot quartermaster at Mount Hope, and we expect 

in two months time; the object being to consolid

expenses.

Mr. HUBBARD. What do those expenses amount t

system?

Major DEVOL. The plant in Panama is operated 

$3,800 per month; this is the amount of the pay

about $4,700 per month. Of course I am witho

regard to the printing plant of the Panama Railroad

print largely the tickets, etc., pertaining to the rai

Mr. HUBBARD. Is all printing for the Commissi

the plant here ?

Major DEvOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBBARD. Do you purchase machinery, pre

Major DEVOL. The plant was all here when I 

engine and the presses. When we consolidate it w

to buy more.

Mr. HUBBARD. Can you state the amount of the 

plant here?

Major DEVOL. I can not.

Mr. HUBBARD. Has any inventory been made s

in charge?

Major DPvOL. Yes, a physical inventory.

Mr. HUBBARD. No valuation?

Major DEVOL. I have not valued it.

Mr. HUBBARD. How many printers are employe

Major DEVOL. There are 13 compositors.

Mr. HUBBARD. Who has immediate charge of 

here?

Major DEvOL. A man named William Krugel, w

approves? are thhas of wages. 21 These gold Majorr. Major them cents, United immediate 65 per HUBBARD. men HUBBARD. HUBBARD. men are The day. DEvOL. day. DEvOL. 19, who States? Pnamanians including 15, rates charge. I do 12, They understand His Are You How are the 10, pay they himself. pay 321 are printing 7, manynd roll really skied cents here in 5 some menamounts are the cents Thatthen silverkilled or compositors United are are common about incldes right perWest mn to on hour, dwn States $3,800 one-hthe with Indilabo50 anp
112 PANAMA CANAL.

Major DEVOL. Yes, sir. It is based on the 

for other commercial work in town.

Mr. HUBBARD. Have you any information a

pay roll at the Colon plant?

Major DEVOL. No, sir; it is not under my ju

Mr. HUBBARD. In what way is it expected 

consolidating the plants?

Major DEVOL. There will be one man in ch

plant and we hope for the usual results of con

result in economy.

Colonel GOETHALS. Also in the transportati

ies and of the finished product, most of 

ulebra and Empire.

Mr. HUBBARD. The distribution cost would 

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes.

Mr. HUBBARD. I do not remember that yo

paid by you for paper and other supplies.

Major DEVOL. That comes in a total charg

per month figures, roughly, $4,700.

Mr. HUBBARD. I understood that to be the 

work that you distributed.

Major DEVOL. Yes.

Mr. HUBBARD. What I am inquiring about, 

paper, ink, and other supplies which you purc

Major DEVOL. Here is one month's business; 

and the labor is $2,200.

Mr. HUBBARD. Is that the average proportio

Major DEvOL. That is an average month's 

Mr. KNOWLAND. What character of supplies 

and the Carolinas other than lumber?

Major. DEVOL. Forage; the last shipment 

Galveston.

Mr. KNOWLAND. What comes from New Orl

Major DEVOL. Cypress ties, from that vicini

not much else but a great deal of commissary 

Mr. BARTLETT. Are they brought in foreign o

Major DEVOL. They are brought in vessels 

no probably required present pliesortation, vessels? Company. be are Mr.ajor Mr.ajor Mr. bought decrease, coming would BARTLETT. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. rates DEvOL. DEVOL. that a DEVOL. will decrease. down. t increase and or allthe it the not? Oh, Foreign. probably, American What supplies Are What Isthmus I cost in should yes; they amount; would would of four be inof perhaps, supplies say vessels American foreign brouht be and be forthe the the one-half three would cement would an effect or effect effect to increasvesselsAmriyears the be onmiif haif wi
PANAMA CANAL. 

Major DEVOL. I should say it would materially i

t

the work.

Mr. BARTLETT. To what extent?

Major DEVOL. I am unable to say. It depen

t

American shipping industry would do. If they htt

could take care of the business, but I do not know i

line would go to New Orleans and put on a line.

Mr. BARTLETT. Would it retard the work b

i

expense?

Major DEVOL. I do not know; I presume the suwh

to come from some other port where American linhi

I should think it would increase the cost of the work.

Mr. BARTLETT. As much as 20 per cent?

Major DEVOL. I do not know; I would not think t

m

Mr. EscH. We have purchased two ships for the P

R

Company of very much larger tonnage than any we ht

to be delivered here some time this spring. If they pi

mission would that lower the freight rates-becautl

tonnage?

Major DEVOL. They are government ships; I shit

should lower the expense, because they can be m

handled than a smaller ship. They are good ships.

Mr. Esc. Yes; but when you figure you have lnr

cargo, can they be more economically run in the P

R

trade than the ships they now have?

Colonel GOETHALS. They can not; they can now

the full load that the ships can carry, for our presen

f

will not permit them to dock. If loaded to full c

w

have to lighter at least part of the cargo; they ar

t

lf

purposes.

Mr. Escn. Then the conclusion might be drawn t

not have been purchased?

Colonel GOETHALS. They should not have been p

f

as the commission is concerned.

Mr. EscH. The ships that are now in the trade a

t

t

proper size to most economically handle the trade?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes.

essary Mr. EscH. Would the loss of the steamship Fin

r

i

n

storage bulk? when moreMr.ajor Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Colonel Mr.ajor Mr. frequently 70178--PAN they Eson. HUBBARD. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. to supplies, DEVOL. DEVOL. have GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. come Is purchased it CAN-09---8 in Who Have here? but I No. By not have. smaller not a No. Very Oh, hasbetter youu larger at for charge no; quantities any much An least to handling vessel? I additional have difficulty complaints did one of better. procuring not your of than costruction these so in ship cold-storat from undersgetting largeessewas thethnfiiltlMlfl
114 PANAMA CANAL.

Major DEVOL. No; we have had no compl

p

except an occasional complaint that comes thr

f

M

B

They c(me to him mere than to me.

Mr. STEVENS. Ycu have no difficulty in get

f

l

Majcr DEVOL. No, sir. The matter of t

r

o

l

seems to have settled itself within the last five m

Mr. STEVENS. You get your white labor the 

w

Major DEVOL. Yes.

Mr. STEVENS. When you want men for pa

t

y

h

no difficulty in getting them?

Major DEVOL. None at all.

Mr. STEVENS. What proportion of the men y

g

c

f

t

Civil Service Commission-I mean of the whit

g

r

Major DEVOL. All the clerical'force.

Colonel GOETHALS. All clerks, physicians, dr

n

from the civil service; others are by direct ap

Mr. BARTLETT. How many men are on the 

r

Major DEVOL. Approximately 40,000 on the

i

t

n

ber on the rolls, but not the number employed. T

n

e

is about 30,000. This obtains from the fact th

o

m

w

on a roll two or three times during a month, an

t

e

f

i

n

working all the time. There are 4,998 Ameri

5

E

and 29,000 West Indians.

Mr. HUBARD. Is that the number on the r

Major DEVOL. Yes; the actual force on N

w

30,701; they divide up in the same proportion

Mr. BARTLETT. Flow many United States n

h

y

h

Major DEVOL. A very few; I should say abo

Mr. BARTLETT. Have you made any e'.ort t

g

Major DEVOL. No, sir.

Mr. Escn. Are they put on the gold roll'?

Major DEVOL. In some cases.

Mr. Escn. Doses the eight-hour law apply t

Major DEVOL. Yes.

Mr. BARTLETT. Are the firemen on the engi

g

m

Major DEVOL. No gold men; they are all sil

m

Mr. BARTLETT. All the firemen on the engin

cost of Commission? theic locomotive as not competent are Mr. Major Majorr. Colonel Colonel the engineers. division. Central at because of BARTLETT. BARTLETT. BARTLETT. present engineers. the DEVOL. DEVOL. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. up-keep to division, engineers of I make on They tave Yes; Yes, the I Well, Negroes'? understood protest of two are repairs silver sir; had objected There I all the on am used on the I occasion engines the rolls. the of looking believe asre, forfiremen the engines you Pacific to the svI engineers, the I to believe, itching so. white to into find sayand, divisionemploythat look it thatt eng

I in vi

thdo th

t

c

n

twoCneotAurtontywbvtcbilitnnTn
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. BARTLETT. These men you can work more 

a day?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes; the locomotive engine

work nine hours a day.

Mr. BARTLETT. Major, you say you have about 

negroes here; have you ever had more than that? 

had more than are on the Isthmus at present?

Major DEVOL. I think there used to be more.

STATEMENT OF LIETT. COL. GEORGE W. GOETH

Mr. STEVENS. Will you please state your name 

nection with the Isthmian Canal work?

Colonel GoETHALS. George W. Goethals, chairma

neer of the Isthnian Canaf Commission.

Mr. STEVENS. -What has been your professional 

rience in this line of work?

Colonel GOETHALS. For six to six and one-half ye

in work of construction of locks and dams, five yea

the Tennessee River and the remainder on the Oh

Tennessee River the Muscle Shoals has a longitud

of earth constituting a continuous dam 14 miles lo

I joined that work in time to complete it, and per

and designed a 26-foot lift lock and begAn its c

lock was subsequently completed on the original p

Mr. STEVENS. On which river?

Colonel GOETHALS. On the Tennessee River. 

charge of construction work at Westport involv

other classes of masonry; for three years on fortific

required the laying of large masses of concrete; in o

for 6-inch guns was successfully completed on a 

My' other experience has been along lines not esp

with lock and dam construction, though I taught 

engineering for four years. I was appointed a me

mission on March 4, 1907; I reached the Isthmus 

and was appointed chief engineer and chairman on 

duties? ment worksupervision mentittee, gentlemen the and dent Railroad what Mr. Colonel Mr. (Mr. Panama engineering-the the of plans onf of STEVENs. STEVENS. he the Stvens quartermaster's sanitation, the matters. construction GOETHALS. will to as Panama of Railroad.) Isthmus. undertake to all question announces When this In the the your Railroad, project deparment As departments you and examiner Colonel As the and chief present arrived that, chairman engineering, examination the didngineer, I Goethals have subsistence youf with capacity, not at civil accounts, find? general of the connected the I the asdministras involving am Isthmus to permisto depart

what in comm

superengithe civicha
116 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel GOETHALS. The present project, co

85-foot level project, with the locks and da

structed at Gatun, and with the locks and 

Pacific side in the vicinity of Sosa Hill.

Mr. STEVENS. That was the project that h

your superior officers as required by law?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. So that the project was not 

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. What was your first duty in 

project-to examine it as to its practicability, 

tion, or both?

Colonel GOETHALS. Both.

Mr. STEVENS. What did you find as to its p

Colonel GOETHALS. I found, and subsequ

study have led me to conclude, that the proje

practicable and feasible. So far as the locks o

concerned, they projected into the Pacific Oce

a military necessity to the United States the l

the Pacific side was objectionable from a milita

we reached the Isthmus, work had been beg

struction of the dams at the La Boca end. The 

in the construction of these dams was such as 

estimate of the cost of carrying out that pro

it by withdrawing the locks farther into the in

cost for the change was less than the estimat

the locks and dams as originally designed; and

necessities of the situation, with the approva

reported the facts to my superiors and recomm

be changed, in so far as it relates to the Pacific 

the locks at Pedro Miguel and Miraflores. So 

project is concerned, I have had no occasion w

opinion that the project is safe and can be bui

Mr. STEVENS. Did you give the project on 

Gatun, the same investigation and scrutiny a

advisible, that you gave on the Pacific side?

Colonel GOETHALS. I had no desire whate

Atlantic for have the mind tigate side thoroughly Mr. Colonel Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel the locks first at indicated, that STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. conditions STEVENS. the military place, side, could GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. the Gatun than while project nt and and reasons Was It Did You we as locks have was economic I to report did you cnceived did there No, Yes, Ias these and did. already a on been laid have give qustion, sir. them sir. the sir. any dam? matters importance out constructed the a Pacific There it, stated. physical desire to We could samethen, your then, from investigwas side, to investbe asuperin orf theschaat youconeanthseS
PANAMA CANAL. 

tions, so far as the dam on the Atlantic side is con

favorable as to foundations than had been reporte

tr

the board of consulting engineers.

Mr. STEVENS. Please make a statement to the 

t

record, of what was the condition that you found 

and that leads you to decide that the plan is prac

b

made effective.

Colonel GOETHALS. In the report of the board o

eers, and subsequent congressional hearings, a 

seepage through the foundations had been mentio

p

suggested to stop it. Our investigations show tha

t

t

they anticipated will not be realized; that, except f

t

the material is practically impervious to the passa

Mr. STEVENS. What do you mean by "practicall

Colonel GOETHALS. Water will not get through t

the substructure of the dam.

Mr. STEVENS. Why do you use the word "practic

Colonel GOETHALS. Water under proper pressur

t

almost any material. Water under pressure due t

h

can not get through the blue clay, but does through t

forming the top stratum.

Mr. STEVENS. Is it of any consequence in the exe

t

Colonel GOETHALS. No.

Mr. STEVENS. Then, what will you do with the ut

you state is not practically impervious?

Colonel GOETHALS. We are to cut off the seepagtt

stratum by sheet piling. I do not consider it as ab

but it is an additional precaution.

Mr. STEVENS. Why? Colonel GOETHALS. The magnitude and impor

t

and the criticisms that have been made of the Gatu

and many that we do not care to take any poss

investigations and reports indicate that seepage i

t

stratum, and we would be subject to criticism if we 

t

stop it, so that we resorted to the sheet piling.

Mr. STEVENS. Then, do we understand , at, as 

practical business proposition, the upper stratum w

in without precaution would especially projects, tions caused Mr. Colonel Colonel Colonel Colonel Colonel the similar have upper STEVENS. KNOwLAND. STEVENS. STEVENS. by the do GOETHALS. one GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. seepage GOETHALS. necessary resorted you piling, exist? straum with know Has In Was through upon such Howto your anyi IfatNo, Five I it ofhe my would the wre enormous the long which any damage knowldge Sir. si the or memory accident Wachusetts ordinary I other has six building not dam? to years. tht resulted? place dimensions. dams haveserves which and case, damthethe dam considereof experienme dam stood? impordam? nor occurand righin dbtUthupt
118 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. STEVENS. How deep is that upper stratuhjb

discussing?

Colonel GOETHALS. It varies from zero to a 

80 feet.

Mr. STEVENS. Does it extend the whole lengt

Colonel GOETHALS. No; it extends from the h

way to the east bank of the Chagres, and then d

the west side of Spillway Hill it is found across 

Mr. STEVENS. Does it extend the whole widt

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes; practically. There bp

tions of the width where it does not appear.

Mr. STEVENS. Now, with that situation as a bp

pose to do to construct the dam?

Colonel GOE'IHALS. Put in two rock piles, on

1,200 feet clear between them, and pump in sel

and clay, the fill being made by what is knoh

process.

Mr. STEVENS. Where does this material come 

Colonel GOETHALS. It comes from the Chag

half mile and more below the dam.

Mr. STEVENS. In. what way is it deposited in 

Colonel GOETHALS. A suction dredge remov

the bank in which it is found and transmits 

pipes. The material is then distributed by pip

area to be covered, the velocity of flow being r

heavy material-the sandy part-will settle n

finer material settles in the vicinity of the shee

pp

tically a core of clay.

Mr. STEVENS. What is the character of the 

object of depositing it in that way, and what r

be received from it?

Colonel GOETHALS. The material is a mixtu

the object is to place the material uniformly o

by the dam, and to secure segregation of the 

p

the dam under its highest part so as to make a p

core in the middle.

Mr. STEVENS. With that situation, then-

lower with dam-do and the description strata, testing and reasonably way resulting Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel question intelligent alsos sheet base; STEVENS. HUBBARD. twoheo in toyou GOETHALS. GOETHALS. discharge GOETHALS. piling material the of experimental anticipate. with, deermine of consider criticism those settlement seepage So You as through then, the that you experiments? Yes, No, In said the is material or The state, the was addition dams sir; eliminated. of question sir; discussion? amount the your the first question it available and upper a were is experiments upstream sandy practically not. t dam ofur of constructstratum; the sepage, seepage you Will portion experimfor was invefrom cnuse yoimhcubpupb
PANAMA CANAL. 

downstream toe, and the clay portion on the upst

amount of the clay was carried off by the water. 

sure will seep through various materials, and, in 

curve of saturation indicated a relatively small in

clay to the passage of water. It showed, however, 

was such that in the width of the dam that is to be 

would be practically nil. In the second experim

was spilled into the dam from both the up and d

and the discharged water regulated so as to deposit 

of the fine material. This showed the practicabil

clay core by the hydraulic method,, the material len

this end. The result of the experiment was a filt

less than was apparent in the first experiment, due 

greater mass of the silt was saved in the second 

possible in the first. The method of constructing 

low that used in the second experimental dam, bec

results obtainable.

Mr. HUBBARD. Will you explain what you mean 

saturation?"

Colonel GOETHALS. All materials offer a certain 

transmission of water, sand, gravel, clay, each 

which water will percolate has its own coefficient o

transmission of water; and the curve shows the 

offered by different materials, and the amount of s

material will permit.

Mr. STEVENS. Now, with the question of seepa

next come to the question of subsidence, or possib

change in base by reason of materials shifting thei

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not anticipate any da

after the dam is completed.

Mr. STEVENS. Now, please indicate the nature of 

you base your conclusion upon it?

Colonel GoETHALs. A great deal has been said a

that is found underlying this top stratum at vari

blue clay hardens and stiffens as the depth increase

culty I anticipate in the situation because of the cla

that may occur during the construction of the roc

from sudden tively sufficient placement tity by material a method resulted construction the for is was Slip more better the such underlying of gradually some thinafter relocation material application treacherous of in that refinement area, construction height. layers and securing distributing slip of. slips without material. widened the a occurred practically uniformly of concrete out of toes If thean suchin the weis results. Panama any thissand until could repaced during at mass had wall, over unlimited, distribution slips; the instance. over sufficiently be time which te damhRailroad the In by constructed but an and Boston, weight construction clay better site. is time and area Moreover, of heavy spread as atpread th nothing it stuff, of In isGatun of on now an withwhithis andloatrethe Coest
120 PANAMA CANAL.

underlying material less than the latter is cap

The embankment is satisfactorily completed, 

the method to be followed in the construction of 

safety of the south side of the toe where the slip 

fact that the material there was spread out an

which it rests is not called upon to bear any 

can successfully withstand. This was not do

where the slip occurred, and which would hav

for the simple reason that we did not care to ta

space between the toes than is absolutely nec

dam material when in place will accomplish thi

fer the material in that special part of the dam 

Mr. STEVENS. Then you have calculated the 

and displacement that all of the strata in the 

made your margin of safety come within it?

Colonel GOETHALS. Practically so, and we w

by experience during construction, as in the c

Mr. STEVENs. Do you consider that the ma

warranted by experience in this Charles Rive

that you know of?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir; and also our o

construction of the relocated portion of the Pa

Gatuncillo bottom.

Mr. STEVENS. Supposing that your calculatio

they might-that the dam should subside throu

dation at some point in the gorge-what would 

Colonel GOETHALS. Mr. Stevens, I am not re

do not think anything of that kind w ill occur 

structed to its full height.

Mr. STEVENS. You think that condition that j

will be eliminated by the construction of your 

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir. When the dam 

be there, and \\ ill stay there. We are going to 

struction until we get the load so distributed 

material can bear it and remain in rest, and 

which we are building it are of the most trying 

in trestles 15 to 20 feet high and dumping f

maintained rial without of question taken? not rock are trouble; tion,hat Colonel Mr. Mr. Colonel seepage have going to was in but STEVENS. STEVENS. distribute one I any slides, received of I GOETHALS. GOETHALS. to do eliminated spot, maintain by slides have not difficulty spreading and Then, Is and that admit by no ;iii the I after you that We Yes, do further foundation and we general be that A noout when hatever. will understand when that eliminated sir. that, feel there the trouble, not plan has you the also, at rock over is eliminate reached came all you So, constructiweakness we by we and pile. appreheone-quhave I consihere? may the thia do ssWj
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. STEVENS. And that the calculations which 

engineers previous to you have been substantiat

and by the calculations you have made, incident 

of the work?

Colonel GOETIALS. Not only substantiated, but 

better, as shown by the result of our investigations 

to exist at the time they made their recommendat

Mr. STEVENS. So, if you had been in their place

adopted that plan?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. And as continuing your work, you 

that plan?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. Now as to the locks-what is 

and experience as to the safety of the lock fou

struction?

Colonel GoETHALS. There is no question in my 

can build those locks and build themnsafe on the ex

Mr. STEVENS. What possibility of damage do yo

may be in the lock floors by reason of a flow wate

floors through a seam?

Colonel GOETHALS. None whatever, because th

be drained and so constructed as to resist any hea

come upon them; any pressure from that source, i

drained, must be local in its effect.

Mr. STEVENS. We understand from previous te

head that may possibly come upon them can be calc

ness?

Colonel GOETHALS. It can-yes, sir; and we k

power of the concrete, and we can so build our co

resist any pressure that may be brought upon them

Mr. STEVENS. So that we may consider that the 

age or possible peril by water through seepage, se

through the lock foundation may be considered as 

ColQnel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. What do you know about possibl

age through seams in the hills which may imperil 

hills. Lake cerning discussion now brdering road is area Mount another have 57 threaten the Mr. Colonel no feet, lake of making at through another seepage. STEVENS. I Hope, with 140 theGatun to at do the GOETHALS. the is be acres existence Comacho, not the maintenance an has atthe maintained? lake. on careful We cut see Then academic Rio and no hills the relatively any do appreciable Grande We of depth That relocated 38.4 no than survey any know more do information of one, question of acres fromsuch thatknow ofear., rson 34.5 the entirely. and 72.9 line leakage these lake's caverns, in Brazos there feet, investigation which acres area There has to has reervoirs. level? constructethrough expect is been A and gorges, and Brook come maintaiis a survepond n 55 a broseelethmto 
122 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel GOETHALS. Major Sibert reported th

limestone caverns east of San Pablo through w

p

The bulk of these caverns or broken rock for

are above the 85-foot level of the lake, and th

turb the level of the lake, and that water from 

b

level of the lake flowed back into the Frijole

of the rivers that will be. submerged by the lak

there for water from the lake.

Mr. STEVENS. Then, so far as any informatio

h

tenance of the lake may be considered as fairly 

Colonel GOETHALS. So far as I know now. W

gations, and hope to conclude them by the end 

have no apprehension on that ground, beca

maintained by our reservoirs located in hills 

formation.

Mr. STEVENS. When you first came to this w

engineer in charge of thQ La Boca end of the l

Colonel GOETHALS. The organization has b

since I came here. There was no division eng

La Boca locks. They had not been started; a 

hb

preparatory to the construction of the Sosa-Co

Mr. STEVENS. The point is this, Colonel: Wit

idei' of changing the location of the Pacific loc

Colonel GOETHALS. The first mention of the 

John F. Stevens. Prior to the submission of t

r

b

of consulting engineers to Congress, the bo

defense advocated a change for strategic reason

Culebra division found considerable difficult

dumps in the vicinity of Sosa-Corozal. The 

cussed among ourselves whether we should r

foundations sufficiently to bear the superimpo

should excavate the material down to rock, or w

p

had better be recommended. Major Sibert, w

h

department of locks and dams, had supervision 

borings for securing the necessary data and fo

p

and later submitted a report recommending th

Mr. STEVENS. Upon consultation of the vario

having report mission; might boardit the dent. of reasons, or dam was Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. consulting chairman, Secretary or STEVENS. STEVENS. of an in be The the locks, favor the national unsuitable GOETHALS. GOETHALS. desirable responsibility Secretary commission location of from engineers, of calling- War, And Now, a coast change any to location that Yes, That and have of attention withdraw of calls defense has War, for those was itn sir; the was anywas from charge location that attention approved that in engineers reports locks reommended At to approved them. transmitting a work, grave was the of military of seemed all come to theime (lone by it connI genthe or by wawathPstphrbrp
PANAMA CANAL. 

would lead you to conclude that a similar change 

advantage at Gatun?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENs. From your experience as an office

Engineers, what would you conceive to be your 

grave or perilous, were discovered in any way in co

of the locks or dams on the Pacific or the Atlantic s

Colonel GOETHALS. I conceive that my duty w

fully to the Secretary of War, with recommendatio

Mr. STEVENs. As you did in the caseColonel GOETHALS. Of the Pacific locks.

Mr. STEVENS. Has any such defect or condition 

your attention which would require any such repor

locks or dam?

- Colonel GOETHALS. Not from the Isthmus. I 

from the President asking for my views, and I un

them-that the present project is practicable and 

Mr. STEVENs. As you have given this committee?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BARTLETT. I would like you to state what 

from the Gatun slide-what it indicates, especially 

tions there at the bottom of the old French c

explained it while we were on the ground?

Colonel GOETHALS. The sliD that recently occurre

of the dam is the fifth one of the kind that has occu

the fact that a flood in the Chagres River existed 

slin, it would probably have caused no more comm

of its predecessors. It was probably due to the fa

in the French canal had been pumped out to a d

sea level, changing previous conditions which w

equilibrium. The weight of the superstructure w

force down and out certain soft materials under t

material had not been removed prior to the constr

pile. The settling reached a point when the slippi

more easy than further penetration downward, and 

the rock was forced downstream and carried up w

silt from the bottom of the old French canal. Bu

we for maintained of standpoint, embankment railroad. drawn water southgoing those Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel that did selected slips there side? to BARTLETT. BARTLETT. out? not fill, have Will GOETHALS. GOETHALs. are care there it to asmaterial, is going is resist thosethat of toof done by Was Yes,no encroach great answer to spreading that slips importance, Yes; No; a on bethere sir. condition tendency importance greater when thee so your on Theany'indication we south out south the wequestion, water than any did of the to 1,200 cross sideide; equilibrium sli. during more not they foundation in the fet rmainehave but, the Mr. than are at the Frenthaall cain Bfrth
124 PANAMA CANAL.

and they are going to be greater on the north t

the diversion than on the south toe where 

diversion, unless we take special precautions 

Mr. BARTLETT. Now, that last sli; did it a

Colonel GOETHALS. It does not affect the da

Mr. RICHARDSON. It is practically agreed, i

three problems connected with the constructi

is sanitation, the other is housing and feeding 

third is the character of the canal?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir; those are settle

Mr. RICHARDSON. And your reference to th

admit, do you not, or is it not a fact that 

relates only to the foundation of the Gatun dam

Colonel GOETHALS. I presume so, from the p

Mr. RICHARDSON.- All other questions and 

construction of the canal are secondary to that 

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And I am fully satisfied 

willing, and prepared to give all the informati

power

Colonel GOETHALS. We have given it; nea

annual report is devoted to a discussion of the 

mation we have is recorded there, in Mr. Sav

manner as we thought would make it clear to 

Mr. RICHARDSON. And I understand you to 

this public clamor and disquietude in the publ

adopted precautions that you deem unnecessa

of a solid and safe foundation at that dam, 

expense?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir; it adds more exp

ing this dam in the States, I would not put in 

not go to the expense of putting in such floors in 

to do in order to make them additionally secure

clamor, only to a lesser degree, in your distr

Shoals lock when I was connected with that wo

Mr. RICHARDSON. Now, if I understand yo

is that the pit test as well as the borings that y

clay inmpervious the mum clay with and found whereColonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel the ascertainment clay. on running shells; beingRICHARDSON. diagram-clay, RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. gravel our the GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. investigations surface to 80 but down and water feet. as bowlders? of of a probably If Now, Thirty rule thhat It We gravel Yes, No I is it fact understand bowlders have show ground a sir below is feet stratum and 100 all that struckhat clay feet? clay, below for that there and varying some below the further, various sand no blue that, was congra80 anth
PANAMA CANAL. 

are better than was supposed to exist at the time 

board's report. The borings made at that time w

they were all wash brings. They were made by pu

and by hydraulic jet forcing the material out withi

the pipe. 'he material was gathered as it came u

and the material found at various depths was so de

washings came out showing gravel. When we 

we had more time. We made the wash brings, b

or dry samples, which gave us a correct record o

to depth and as it is in place. We found that 

cemented with clay. We have photographs showin

comes out by the wash borings and that same m

out in the drive samples. That material is cemen

we could core it and stand it on end.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You did not find any bowlder

Colonel GOETHALS. None, except the rock found

tom of the gorges.

Mr. RICHARDSON. It is undoubtedly true, is it 

neering standpoint, that a rock foundation wou

satisfaction than any other kind?

Colonel GOETHALS. I have never been of that o

great faith in earth dams. We have 14 miles of 

Muscle Shoals Canal. They never thought of pu

there, though'they had rock foundation.

Mr. L ICHARDSON. You are not prepared, then

engineering standpoint that a rock foundation the

supericr to the one you have?

Colonel GOETHALS. Not in my opinion, for I h

dams.

Mr. RIcHARDsON. Now, as an engineer, you are 

that prehistoric volcanic convulsions have taken pl

ClcFndl GOETHALS. I am.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Well, do you believe that thos

have taken place in the history of the world at so

calculated to disturb the level cf that lake by seep

Colonel GOETHALS. I have given the reasons w

believe that such criticisms and rumors about seep

frcmoration breaches lake Major are engineer, discover Sibert thate apprehensive. Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel nct sides maintenance through that, point. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. Sibert and founded them and of GOETHALS. that GOETHALS. maintain because ycurself the the has crevices Major during lake The such on hills of submitted fact-I our differ? thei reservoirs matter I Sibert You Is convulsions construction is not Yes; No. do reservoirs that an not levels. admit, perceptible believe unknown and We says, is anot apprehend plan not in Ihave though, the constructed the in there believe settled, asnd for effect, quantity, same to very that no lock as isthe any Colonel, nothing the that as differencharactpoint that floors are human difficuI in lake andppif prcathu
126 PANAMA CANAL.

study the matter and to report the results of it

has not met as yet for its discussion, so the 

Following engineering practice, the water in t

be drained therefrom, and if this be done the 

from leaks tirouah seams, and if the concrete 

with the foundation-as it must be-the upwa

age through seams in the rock must be local a

over the entire lock floor. As an engineer, I am 

risks, desiring to be safe with due regard to ec

to risk something, for even if we take all sa

be sure of everything.

Mr. BARTLETT. You are not sure that the 

morning?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. I am going to ask you a q

if you do not care to, you need not answer.

Colonel GOETHALS. I will answer anything, 

Mr. RICHARDsON. The public has been advise

elect is coming here with several expert engine

notified, officially, of any cause of complaint th

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. As to your plans?

Colonel GOETIHALS. No, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. I-lave you been notified th

Colonel GOETHALS. I have heard that the P

gineers were coming down, but I have not bee

names or duties.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You have not been advised 

Colonel GOETHALS. Not officially; you see 

the board was made only a few days ago, and I 

will give them instructions. From the newsp

coming down to look into the construction of t

Mr. RICHARDSON. Now, the change you say 

erence to the locks on the Pacific side was induc

military necessity?

Colonel GOETHALS. Military reasons-yes, sir

Mr. RICHARDSON. You apprehended, then, t

hended Pacific. be can thinkios. completed came Colonel Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. bombarded? not with the RICHARDSON. ESCH. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. was getGOETHALS. time GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. by you a bombardment Because shell t is as ripe tme engineer? through By When That Yes, No, Yes, the Major now the 'a foreign material sir; of would sir. canal sir.ir; masses for you Gaillard. the I the and The came had is locks necessarily enemy? of commencemcompleted. is because no canal earth now down, which doubt availike shouthowimC
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. RICHARDSON. Major Sibert came after?

Colonel GOETHALS. He came after-a week or t

Mr. RICHARDSON. Do you fully and freely c

associates?

Colonel GOETHALS. Always-not only with the d

but lower down. I will consult a foreman about h

of work. It helps the foreman and it helps me.

* Mr. RICHARDSON. Now, you spoke of the slip tha

south toe of the Gatun dam, and stated that you 

have slips at other places. Do you mean at other 

Gatun?

Colonel GOETHALS. I mean at other places on the 

dam, where the rock toes cross the French canal a

sion. Those slips will continue during construction 

to a more expensive method, both as to time and mo

ing them, which I do not think the situation warra

Mr. RICHARDSON. In the event you did not have 

slips, how would that affect your convictions about 

already taken place?

Colonel GOETHALS. It would not affect them.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Now, you are president of the 

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. The Government owns the Pa

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes sir; but it is operated 

under its old charter granted under the laws of 

York.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Are there any individual st

Panama Railroad?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, Sir; I am a stockholder

Mr. RICHARDSON. Is Mr. Cromwell a stockholder

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir. So far as I know the 

are the Secretary of War and the board of direct

latter owns one share of stock which is immediately 

the Secretary of War after $90 have been paid for 

Mr. RICHARDSON. I am asking you these quest

cause I have heard some complaint. I am satisfie

all up.

stock. nitely. taken in Isthmus; ested is erning mercial from road Colonel Mr. Colonel owned Mr. Colonel Mr. the and i theplace RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. one transportation The business the by steamship you Colombian GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. would on Panama the Secretary know the Panama and refer Gatun line of Andre You Railroad to Government. I No, I none of to do live think is there Railroad the ar dam? War sir;upplies necessary both. not of upamiliar Pacific Steamship the any the could thinko This Company. Panama question the owners individual from Steamship in advise Mr. with requirementmethod oider Line? the Cromweof all Railroaof you that to owneUnitthe stocLiof enol
128 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. How far have you gone d

Colonel GOETHALS. Down to rock-in the 

feet below sea level.

Mr. RICHARDsON. Do you recall the depth 

went down?

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not think they eve

That site was proposed by a French engineer 

selected a site at Bohio.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What other borings previo

by whom, and to what depth?

Colonel GOETHALS. Wash borings only were 

rock by parties under Mr. Stevens, then chief 

mation of the board of consulting engineers.

Mr. RICHARDSON. As to whether they could 

Colonel GOETHALS. As to the character of m

which the dam was to be constructed.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Did you find any differen

you developed on your borings from the bo

Stevens or under M9r. Wallace?

Colonel GOETHALS. No; we found no differe

sification of materials went; but we found it 

condition than was reported, for the simple 

being constantly pressed for this information to 

board, sitting in Washington; and when I w

1905, they were cabling up the information a

Pacific side. They did not have the time to in

as we have since-that is all.

Mr. RICHARDSON. By whom were they spurr

Colonel GOETHALS. They were being spurred 

desire to get the type of canal definitely settle

progress along proper and definite lines, and pr

the members of the board to get back to their 

Mr. RICHARDSON. When they ought to have 

Colonel GOETHALS. No; I do not say that. 

cise anybody; I do not know what the conditi

when I was here, in November, 1905, I was told 

tiono gravel, mk chusetts hydraulic hydraulic theion earthen drove Mr.Colonel Colonel Colonel be "rolled" of concerning located an ESCH. teamsEscH. pressure EsCH. but dam. impervious as process, GOETHALS. GOETHALS. process GOETHALS. we bing withas What process? You Would have during That te desired. suitable more as a have do material. substructure model found I Wachusetts you Yes; No; They construction understand you compact referred appliances We part mean consider because that for distributed have That the of gravel by and to ondam it?than found Gatun you "rolled?" an the was is over more which just imbedwas ertheis layers get Wachrolledgravfor posdasectha thn
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. EscH . Could you, by the "rolling" process, 

or finer clay in a given portion of such dam?

Colonel GOETHALS. iNo; not as satisfactorily or 

not do it, in fact.

Mr. Escn. Then you can do that by the hydrauli

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. Eson. Therefore the Gatun darn will be m

Wachusetts dam?

Colonel GOETHALS. Under the same conditions it 

the Wachusetts dam, but we are so far superior 

are way beyond the Wachusetts dam in safety. 

at least ten times better and stronger than the Wach

Mr. Escn. Now, there was a big slide in the Wa

two or three years ago. What was the material de

of the Wachusetts darn outside of the earthen 

side? Was it not gravel?

Colonel GOETHALS. Some gravel, as you appr

surface.

Mr. EscH. Was not the slide due largely to th

material they used in their toe?

Colonel GOETHALS. That is a disputed question

as we have. I gathered from Mr. Stearns that a s

was left under the dam where the slip occurred, 

should have been removed. In addition, the mass 

became water-soaked and slipped until the ang

reached. The slip was local, and at no time d

safety of the structure. We obviate such a conti

in a rock pile on either toe for weight, and by decre

Mr. EscH. So that the Wachusetts dam can n

example of what might happen at the Gatun dam

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir; we are safe wh

established.

Mr. Escn. I noticed you had a hydraulic dredg

j

less than a quarter of a mile north of the north toe 

ing in this silt

Colonel GOETHALS. That is 2,200 feet from the 

dam, if I understood Major Sibert correctly.

Mr. EsCH. Now, then, to fill up that dam a vas

is north. rialeach from surface The tical selected the advantageous Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel reached, dam? will seected to 70178-PAN the we EscH. EscH. of 10 be material north have GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. the horizontal, required. and material That How to ground 22,000,000 toe? CAN-09---9 this put will would mch in material be is The About Have We and for a then required dredge all general do cubic estimate a until you18,000,000 removed be distance you is taken yards. sufficient on removed a for plans contemplate depth the that the soofut provide yards, upstream dam, as 1,500 18,000,0of materiato at to 40 this whaand uleleava feetakfeb
130 PANAMA CANAL.

Nr. ESCH. Would the taking out of 18,000,0

in the valley of the Chagres within a mile and on

destroy the equilibrium of the dam?

COLONEL GOETHALS. No; the material and 

such as not to cause any bad effect.

Mr. EscH. The silt would be supplanted by 

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes.

Mr. EscH. Had you any experts on undergro

ground flow examine the Gatun site?

Colonel GOETHALS. Mr. Saville, assistant en

had been with Mr. Stearns on the Wachusett

Freeman, who is an expert on such subjects. 

his services after some correspondence with bot

Freeman, and Mr. Saville made the investigati

foundations.

Mr. Escr. You have never consulted Profess

ground water and flow?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. Escn. I notice he is referred to in this an

Colonel GOETHALs. We have made use of t

books.

Mr. EscH. You feel satisfied you have mad

necessary as to underground flow?

Colonel GOETALS. All that is necessary and 

Mr. EscH. In that connection, Colonel, I noti

in the lock sites that the dip of stratification w

would lead us to believe that this stratification 

neath the surface of the lake, south of the dam

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. EscH. This is a rough cross section [e

This represents the lock section; this represen

cation. These gorges would doubtless go down 

stratifications belew the lake surface. Would 

water to percolate down through and reach th

come out underneath the lower lock?

Colonel GOETHALS. The excavation for the 

hill; just to the south of the hill the rock is so

surface, Water depth then within that struction, will matein Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Colonel be whatever run of it. EscH. of Escn. EsCo. is the practically so enormous innocent material GOETHALS. Evaporation and GOETHALS. GOETHALS. downhill that cut Do A You that heieafter? large water lake you and have before eliminated. evaporation? when against slides 164 would N. WeYes, has anticipate tests determined square it the noare may sir. I could have have an ulterior have cnal still be miles ever-increasinany to reach been conducting always is the mt prcolate motives. completetrouble in exact mde lhe with area thost
PANAMA CANAL. 

than the lake level, and we are now trying to get te

c

tw

the normal conditions will be.

Mr. Escu. The French made tests?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. EscH. With that degree of evaporation and w

t

for seepage-of which you admit there will be som

t

b

sufficient water supply from the Chagres and its tr

t

m

the needs of navigation?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. Escir. Will you not put a limit on the numb

l

p

day ?

Colonel GOETHALS. That is a physical condition t

l

i

Mr. Escn. But how many lcckages can you make p

Colonel GOETHALS. We figure 48 will be the ma

a

an hour per vessel in passage.

Mr. Escn. With that maximum continued throu

t

h

and sixty-five days, will you maintain a level su

t

through vessels of a draft of 30 feet?

Colonel GOETHALS. I think so. You see, we do n

h

t

f

on three hundred and sixty-five days; we have on

tf

p

tically, on the dry months. We have a surplus 

t

r

season, so that our water supply must be sufficient to 

ut

the dry season only; and that water supply, as f

bt

board of consulting engineers, is a difference of 5 f

it

l

the lake-87 to 82 feet.

Mr. Eson. You could with little expense raise t

l

t

lake 2 or 3 feet?

Colonel GOETHALS. We can.

Mr. EscH. Do you think there is any immediate n

c

structing a reservoir at Alhajuela?

Colonel GOETHALS. I think there was a time whe

t

w

lute necessity for it, but that necessity has to som

p

Mr. EscH. That necessity was what?

Colonel GOETHALS. For power. I think if we had p

t

at first we .would have had all the power necessa

t

t

Isthmus for years.

Mr. EscH. With that power what would you op

I that for road; Now purposes way being have air, power was Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. the now power? and we had ina and EscH. dam same reserve. favor are furnish being andbundant GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. we at going purposes, You Cld Do could of use Alhajuela? used. power that you If to could it power yu we have for build think one The No;We and and halighting have not year lighted could, fr an lock but eventually there light constructed have electric used all ago.ates, that purposes for and purposes. is the operated electric stillhe I plant is the entire the think advisability canal, reltively dam also, former valves, drills? at dredges Isthmmore Gatuthe at and Awtp

P

R

twmfMbtMwet
132 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel GOErHALS. I would still be in favor 

Mr. Escn. At an estimated cost of?

Colonel GOETHALS. The estimated cost of th

$3,100,000. It could be constructed so as to g

age basin and at the same time be capable of d

to 18,000 horsepower.

Mr. Escn. How far is that from Bohio?

Colonel GOETHALS. About 10 miles from Gam

11 miles by river.

Mr. EscH. What would be the capacity in c

Alhajuela, as near as you can estimate?

Colonel GOETHALS. We estimated on a con

there a narrow gorge with rocky cliffs on either 

rock bottom. We could make the fall anyth

cally, and get all the power we want, and with o

of at the Gatun dam the water discharged 

replace the water that would evaporate from 

would not be using water from the lake. We 

time from any coal charges in the operation of 

now the case.

Mr. Escn. Then, from all view points, that 

able thing to construct now?

Colonel GOETHALS. I think so; but what I a

struction line, to do is to avoid the purchase of 

now, with the increase incident to widening t

be pretty well occupied for another year, and I 

Alhajuela matter for that length of time rathe

j

now, especially as we are arranging for powe

Miraflores. If we could have done it a yea

resulted in considerable economy.

Mr. HUBBARD. I will ask you to explain h

process, you are enabled to place the fine clay 

you want it to form a core for the dam?

Colonel GOETHALS. The whole question depe

capacity of water under varying velocities. S

velocities will carry gravel and bowlders. As t

the next larger particles are deposited, and fin

reduced furnishing, by with ever in material core foundation. Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel your regulating you to any HUBBARD. HUBBARD. HUBBARD. HUBBARD. make judgment to ofplease? character GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. which in a With minimum, a the bond is You low You AndHw ?velocity placedthis of between Yes;, places, Yes, I can have in dam about would modification or an directly make of sir. and that prctically faith earth discharge. the that no thedeposit that is "mud in on be earth foundation compared properly the rock, low satisfied I the stoppespots." earth am superplace but fine sacww
PANAMA CANAL. 

the work intended or required. I have seen maso

leaked, and in such a way that they are difficult to r

heard of masonry dams failing in much the same way 

fail, but I do know that the leakage through an e

repaired if its location can be determined and the v

great.

Mr. HUBBARD. The earth dam may form a better b

than earth with rock.

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir. At the Wachusetts 

stone dam in connection with the so-called dikes on 

that stone dam showed indications of leaks when 

spent five years stopping leaks in poorly constructe

the Tennessee River, and I know such repairs can b

Mr. HUBBARD. You said something of widening thp

the Culebra cut. When and how was that directed?

Colonel GOETHALS. It was authorized by the P

United States.

Mr. HUBBARD. Has an estimate of expense been m

Colonel GOETHALs. Yes, sir; practically $13,000,00

Mr. HUBBARD. And what will the width be when 

made?

Colonel GOETHALS. The width for the 41-mile s

Cascadas to Paraiso, was fixed at 200 feet. The w

section to 300 feet has been authorized.

Mr. EsCH. The New French Canal Company plan

b

dam at Bohio?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. EsCH. They had in mind also possible constr

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not understand it that w

stand the situation, the plan for the dam at Bohio 

b

submitted and adopted; and subsequently a French 

this country and advocated a change in the site from 

I may be wrong as to these relative times, but I know 

was at one time proposed.

Mr. EscH. Could you state briefly the advantage

Bohio, so far as the foundations are concerned?

Colonel GOETHALS. The site at Gatun is superio

River extend sea nothing in Bohio. time somewhat struction the flow dam are, than entail your Mr. the level, flow briefly, at you whole investigations up brings KENNEDY. only river Gatun. all but of the the have of less, the the water project the is gravel a down gravel Chagres anticipated-which practically dam waylowering but reasons The If through large and deposits is were down approximately at the dam deposited River make evaporation why quantities of ohio made at theo the the were Bohio to the it same gravel cut fromor control would Gatun scheme found vicinity I of through would the report should presume as there gravel, be that be same. above the site cutoperative? have of of absoluteon prove the at Chagreis and off. it Bohiothe up. the prefwill GatSo necmotho Wcbbrb
134 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel GOETHALS. The scheme would be 

having 45 feet of water in the cut we would h

would be reduced to by reason of evaporation

Mr. KENNEDY. Any failure of water in 

prevent very large ships from passing-small

to pass?

Colonel GOETHALS. It would reduce the nav

Mr. STEVENS. If leaks should occur in the 

dam, or anything might occur in the settling 

stream would run over the top, have you m

repairs?

Colonel GOETHALS. The repairs could be ma

Mr. STEVENS. Have you taken that into co

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir; because we d

such leak, as the (lain is 500 feet through at th

where the pressure is zero.

Mr. STEVENS. So you consider the matter is 

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. In the construction of lock

experience, or do you know of any accidents 

flights, by vessels plunging through them?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you considered that the

danger that you have not met or considered i

that way?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir. Personally, I w

tion of the locks rather than building them 

merely a question of design and not of safety.

Mr. STEVENS. Is there any construction of 

struction, in the United States, that approach

by the Engineer Corps of the Army?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. Are there any engineers in 

United States who have the experience in su

engineers of the army?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir; but they acq

on river and harbor works. Recently, the New 

for developed tomed struction prince ence operation practically gate expressed came as Mr. Colonel Colonel Mr. Colonel experience this and design here, ples. STEVENS. STEVENS. STEVENS. to canal, the construct of GOETHALS. or GOETHALS. opinion a GOETHALS. and theand field such greatest and design. whenor expert construction. What So Does for large ability otherf youor lock opportunity I General No, Yes, that Colonel of tried It engineer some Tocks? have work are the construction. is sir. sir; approach to concerned, timehe simply engineer Mackenzie, the secure Hodges, that There of best to past? the army know is man his ani army is departmmy for size nothiI detail enginapplChieaboin thabelopihatht
PANAMA CANAL. 

doing. His text-book on lock gates is practically an 

t

and his value comes from the fact that he has hims

t

strains and planned the design of the Poe lock gate

h

b

in successful operation, and were, at the time of t

the largest built.

Mr. STEVENS. is it, or rnot, an advantage to the g

features and execution of this work, to be in hast

y

explorations, calculations, and experiments, for the 

t

locTs and dams?

Colonel GOETHALS. No; we ought not to be too h

Mr. STEVENS. You ought to take sufficient tim

what popular clamor may be, to do this work as it 

tb

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEVENS. I certainly hope you will take it.

Mr. RICHARDSON. In your administration you lay 

y

division engineers?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir. In the organizatio

have endeavored to fix responsibility on everybody

t

down. The general design of the locks was prep

t

office; those plans were sent to the division engine

t

requested to criticise them-in fact, I had a board o

t

p

on the studies submitted before I approved the

reports were kept of the proceedings of that bo

through that, I finally approved the general plans 

t

Those general plans were sent then to the divisi

t

them to the ground-to the site. Then they subm

t

my final approval is necessary. My approval is 

work that originates with the division engineers.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You can either approve or di

t

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Among the visiting consulting 

t

to come here, has any one of them, to your knowled

b

t

work at all?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir; Mr. Stearns and Mr. 

the board of consulting engineers in the first insta

M

and Mr. Freeman were on a board appointed by t

April, 1907, to pass upon the rock forming the 

t

Gatun men? height sion but the hasuniformly brought dam, Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Colonel height in not engineer so RICHARDSON. KNOWLAND. RICHARDSON. KNOwLAND. a locks. of as discussion far out the GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. to yet distributed as that 105 Gatun of The reached the the feet there with others Yesterday, You water How D dam.Atlantic above Yes, From No, That me. load him youcnsider was have pressure many sir; sir. Have question the I seaknow over some division, told I not during level, pressknow We are that you the who him is been question there? get is concerned, I in justothing considered foundationsI and advised the sebeing place here favored the as there discusshas same relatisafe? that drwof abothe noita1atktttputrtrptr
136 PANAMA CANAL.

giving the dam the 135-foot height by the mi

tb

consulting engineers was, that by that additionwtm

below would be compressed more. But the ma

i

n

of silty material as supposed; so there is no nft

tional height, and as the locks are practically 

f

h

just back of Gatun village there is a saddle on

9

f

h

there is no object in making the dam higher, be

tw

spill over the locks or the saddle.

Mr. Egcn. What recommendations have you tmt

mittee with reference to the administration of lwt

Colonel GOETHALS. I think the time has comwt

be allowed to give longer leaseholds. We know wl

can be leased, and we ought to encourage settlet

11r. EscH. To that end, would you extend thpit

what length?

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not know what rit

would have in reference to selling lands, but I wbif

actually selling the land.

Mr. EscH. Would you limit the amount of thh

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir; so as to avoid t

l

i

the hands of a trust.

Mr. Esc. Then you would make them nont

Colonel GOETHALS. In the case of leasehold; y

Mr. EscH. Would you require any particulaf

tenant?

Colonel GOETRALs. I have not considered tmI n

know that I would. I believe in the rapid settl

t

Mr. Escn. Are there any difficulties in givnlt

people owning land to be submerged by the Gat

L

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not see that there iptl

that the United States has in its control is ample

Mr. Eson. That has not been determined?

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not know. Mr. Ro

r

i

so I assume the office engineer told him there wlf

that purpose.

Mr. EscH. Colonel, you have had a remarkafrt

zone as to casualties; but you had a serious acm

we pretty was Butprior ago ture explosion occurred so, rent. through fonnd sible is vry Colonel get bcause at in blast? in that to that BasWe well a sensitive no making this a chemical by GOETHALs. occurred fuse acidway found Obispo. the convinced the induction explosion from cnnected. explosion water attacked an toit analysis. jar, examination due could a Have had No;when may nowwire andto the occurred not a you and have lying theat the It certain The cartridge, have wase dtermined current loading to ahat caused near firstdobey will prior find supposed happened amount is impressiocould not was thenot of whetheliberatito shot the be the the expturnso. havof fibpbftptuwtlhbwTimhTwnttiibtwiiptwitvj
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. Escir. Each charge is connected by a wire. to 

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir. [Explains by a di

are connected.] But in this case the charges were 

Mr. Esci. You have a wireless station at Gatun

Colonel GOETHALS. No; we have one at Colon, 

Navy Department.

Mr. Escn. I meant at Colon. What is the power 

the voltage?

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not remember.

Mr. Escu. I understand it is 40,000 volts.

Colonel GOETHALS. It may be, as they communic

Mr. Escn. We have a wireless connection on ea

Railroad ships. This accident occurred six minut

Have you ever thought to examine whether a wir

received or transmitted at six minutes past 11?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. Escn. Would it be within the range of p

transmission of a wireless message at that statiQ

that premature shot-25 miles?

Colonel GOETHALS.'I doubt it. That would be 

duced current in the fuse itself, and it is the quantit

not the voltage necessary to fire the fuse. The 

wireless would be too small.

Mr. Escn. If there was a message being received 

six minutes past 11, would it be more than a coinc

Colonel GOETHALS. No; I do not think it would 

Mr. BARTLETT. Will you kindly make a statemen

Colonel GOETHALS. The change in organization 

tration. Some of the doctors thought expenses co

concentrating everything at Ancon and using the C

the hospitals along the line as emergency hospitals 

That was finally recommended by Colonel Gorgas a

out with his doctors, and I approved it. That cau

the number of nurses and the number of doctors

came up how the reduction should be made-whet

ice should be given first consideration, or effici

the ground, and the doctors agreed with me, that 

increase continue concerned efficiency each cording their of theyen hard thanI reduction coal. have Mr. Colonel Hospitals, on for she, lists hospital arranged BARTLETT. that stuck to from a the only ad agreed. nurse on GOETHALS. length their listuse thefficiency thato now and'the should a relative to that the consolidated chief of of The the understand on? Then oil service recommendation rule. their Along doctors head sanitary we alone. demand efficiency-and these will services shouldnurse That certain list, have that lists have officer, for being each andsome havnot wouldere lins, material to of and prepared gave some decided it purchase other turned nothing the is beyes. the remanotifspite docdispfronurtwuo
138 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. BARTLETT. There will be a large demand f

c

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes. The cement we hav

c

for; that will begin to come down very soon in reg

uniform rate.

Mr. KNOWLAND. There is no cement on the z

e

w

bring in?

Colonel GOETHALS. No; only what we bring i

W

h

n

favored the manufacture of cement on the Isthm

b

i

t

a few years to find out whether you are getting 

g

we do not care to take the risk.

Mr. KNOwLAND. If the Panama Railroad bo

n

to bring material you will have to get other lines?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir. The Panama R

p

all the coal and we purchase our coal from the

t

h

m

contracts with the Earn Line and the Munson Li

b

l

h

opportunity of return cargo from Santiago, Cuba.

Mr. BARTLETT. Are they American bottoms?

Colonel GOETHAL . Those lines are owned b

A

c

I believe, but are of foreign register.

Mr. BARTLETT. Efforts to confine all shipil

o

m

t

American vessels would result in

Colonel GOETHALS. It would increase the co

o

t

tion about 5 per cent.

Mr. BARTLETT. How would it affect the m

o

d

expediting the work here?

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not think, if our con

w

m

f

delivery, so as to provide a penalty as is now don

i

w

d

t

delivery of material any more than the delays w

n

I d

not see why it should. Conditions now, from w

I u

are different from what they were a year ago; t

m

i

ships.

Mr. BARTLETT. How would it affect the s

o

m

from southern ports, if the bill now before Congre

b

e

(At this point an informal discussion ensued i

r

t

bill referred to, which provides that all supplie

f

t

c

on the Isthmus must be shipped in American bo

Mr. BARTLETT. How would it affect the s

o

m

from year,suplies the labor, inFebruary on when that citizens tion, several running from Colonel M Colonel the r. employment Galveston, work; the claimed those an BARTLETT. such years. "goldso insome Arican West GOETHALS. GOETHALS. cold far so men as last as iroll'"-which that firemen of storage Indies. The New possible. to have would of their In citizen we employ foreign Panama Orleans, reference I We been from haveor switch do seriously engineers? are not is Inone people New restricted employed is not Railroad and the required know. egines. to practically found Orleans but cases the affect upon other American employmour rnning The of employs by competethem. Theyvery the work emplan the soutNew enmepplIwlticicfpltdAtymefceffn
PANAMA CANAL. 

Mr. HUBBARD. Have you given consideration 

of the courts in the zone with reference to present 

p

conditions?

Colonel GOETHALS. Not to any extent. I do no

b

judges are overworked, and handle relatively few c

the district judges.

Mr. BARTLETT. Are there American citizens h

juries could be drawn?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes; but I am opposed, per

j

on the Isthmus. I am a firm believer on this job 

j

Juries can be obtained, but not without interfere

Mr. BARTLETT. That is so everywhere?

Colonel GOETnALS. But here it tells more than 

we can not replace our men easily.

Mr. BARTLETT. Have you eyer had any comp

r

severity in the administration of the laws?

Colonel GOETHALS. No.

Mr. KENNEDY. After the canal is completed, 

large population on the zone?

Colonel GOETHALS. I think there will be. To 

bordering the lake will be valuable property.

Mr. KENNEDY. But there will be no great comm

b

ried on outside of the transportation problem in t

Colonel GOETHALS. I look for machine shops a

both ends of the canal.

Mr. IENNEDY. Do you think the locks, after 

ought to be policed?

Colonel GOETHALS. They must be policed, es

trouble; but as for any one man getting in with 

and doing any damage, that is just one of the sca

p

Mr. CUSHMAN. What would be the amount 

created by one or two sticks of dynamite exploded 

Colonel GOETHALS. None whatever, except to b

crete; there would be no other damage. I do not 

damage could be done unless they should get at th

of the lock gates; and of course a man would be u

soon as he got near the gates. theat canal head I touch is authority be have Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. subordinate Colonel Mr. exercised canal is, of for with STEVENS. STEVENS. EscH. STEVENS. taken ships the transshipment is GOETHALS. GOETHALS. exercised GOETHALS. the civilompleted? by What will over to dtails virtue administration As Is You the discharge his there w use in engineering I I of are That that of duties undrstand think am will tohat any the the the during way prt is there President department. there difference while the chairman other of upon of work? the way be the it, will their he side. th for zone? actbsence is I be acting that of understa

cargoes the away civil a of great th you ConPanwoas of scbh
140 PANAMA CANAL.

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sir. I am inclined to b

tp

method is better for the reason that we can get qu

r

Mr. STEVENS. If you depended on congressi

ft

details of law; but you did not have in mind as t

w

should delegate to the President the exact author

lhn

Colonel GOETHALS. No; it is only a question of t

l

to the Canal Zone.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you made any recommend

thought to the question of administrative org

b

different from what it is now?

Colonel GOETHALS. No, sil

Mr. STEVENS. You are satisfied it is efficientl

u

the present scheme?

Colonel GOETHALS. I think so.

Mr. STEVENS. You consider, then, it is necessafec

struction that the chairman of the commission shbi

authority to all other authority of the zone?

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not see how we are go

t

h

unless some one is vested with authority to step iq

tions.

Mr. STEVENS. If you have any other official coo

or superior in any other branch in the zone, wouliltc

Colonel GOETHALS. It did prior to my coming

I p

i

would while I remain here.

Mr. STEVENS. So that, for efficient constructin

for one official to have paramount authority over 

the government?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, sir. Under the last 

t

commission is placed more in the position of an a

b

t

chairman, excepting in certain questions.

Mr. STEVENS. Then, as a matter of practical w

tc

mission is subordinate to the chairman?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes, Sir.

Mr. STEVENS. You stated that you thought i

wbwt

sell the public lands upon the zone. Would it nbwtw

until the completion of the canal, and see what co

b

t

time, before Congress attempts to finally dispose 

t

p

because we possible, landsog should lands-until the ofn , Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. the War such can ultimate operation in STEVENS. STEVENS. zone? STEVENS. not be have theerms the with GOETHALS. GOETHALS. postponed-and GOETHALS. foresee Government the zone surce reported theidea as and And Bys canal would and now. government? a that would I matter No, in is That the of attract think nearly favor might question no; finally canal thatit probably of I not that of want an fact, completed. mean are would disposing legislation be agricultural of whole readythe to wise, governmenthe would also reserve Presidenlocal to also, of questso invobe thpobe threctbwtwtmlmwtfttqynmttt
PANAMA CANAL. 

run this government would emanate from Congres

rt

f

the President, but the local regulations should b

bt

authorities on the ground.

Colonel GOETIHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You have five district judges. T

p

the zone is approximately what?

Colonel GOETHALS. I think about 60,000.

Mr. BisHop. According to the last census, the p

t

zone is 53,000-the population is 50,003. It is gp4

the census report.

Mr. HUBBARD. On what date was that taken?

Mr. BisHrop. It was begun March 3 and comple

J2l

year.

Mr. BARTLETT (to Colonel Goethals). I would lit

tion in regard to the area of this lake. When thi

the water of it will extend to lands beyond the jt

United States, will it not, so far as ownership is c

words, will extend into Panama? I understand whr

under the treaty to take these lands?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes.

Mr. BARTLETT. Ought not some provision be mftp

ment of people who would undertake to injure thlt

water?,

Colonel GOETHALS. I do not think there is any 

the water from the lake in these stretches, but I t

ment of the United States should have control anj

all parts of the lake.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Is that not one of the rights wp

Colonel GOETHALS. We have the right to take t

lf

purposes, yet we have no jurisdiction beyond the 

l

t

is where the difficulty lies; we have the question uwt

State Department with regard to the jurisdictioPB

We are securing stone on an island across the bft

We want to extend our police jurisdiction, as the Pp

are practically helpless, but the Panamanian Gwn

authorize it. What they have authorized now i

t

of some of our police force to them, and they propotp

mitted bu would mineral sure Then, Washington, within ac diction anywhere? Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel undr the there BARTLETT. HUBBARD. HUBBARD. a come, tle in so Panamanian deposits company the GOETHALS. is GOETHALS. that GOETHALS. their zone. oil with claiming waters weithin lieutenant of Have Are was You liability can value, Government of That No.t our such thatorganized maintain might our not limits, gas that of islake they There deposits indications true, acquire police, friction. or I beyond our had from but oil, know would. and is police. known in he found but land an the we of. the has the come employewoulde That Bellingand Canal not valuabline to are tooffis exbe?no

tj

mbhjwtykZwfptliBtI
142 PANAMA CANAL.

Mr. STEVENS. Under the treaty, has not the 

right to police portions of the Republic of Panam

not able to do it itself, if such policing is necessary 

of the canal?

Colonel GOETHALS. The Panamanian Governm

have not.

Mr. STEVENS. Do they claim that such a rig

cities of Panama and Colon, or do -they claim th

Colonel GOETHALS. That it does not exist. Th

b

taken up with the State Department, and it is th

Mr. STEVENS. You have the right to go upon P

for the purpose of doing work necessary for the 

canal?

Colonel GOETHALS. That has never been que

now at Porto Bello preparing for the excavation o

Mr. STEVENS. Have you not a right to proper

erty you occupy at Porto Bello?

Colonel GOETHALS. That has. never been ques

Mr. STEVENS. But police privileges there hav

b

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes; the right of establis

p

force has been denied. They are perfectly will

p

protection, but when they make arrests our Sp

the prisoners or go over to the prison and take th

W

not maintain order under these circumstances.

Mr. STEVENS. In the administration of law ha

tention that there is a difficulty in that the treat

dition of people accused of crime committed in t

not extend to the zone?

Colonel GOETHALS. There is no extradition tre

b

and the zone. There was an agreement betwee

and the Panamanian secretary of foreign affa

extradition of accused persons, and we have lived b

agreement made between parties who had no ri

agreement.

Mr. STEVENS. And it can not be enforced?

Colonel GOETHALS. No; and the question cam

when an American shot a negro on Panamania

rested theurn can this agreement ities of territory dition Coln? Ancon first Mr. Colonel Colonel an matter not was that be the American STEVENS. BARTLETT. on treaty who afford would. man not the and zone GOETHALS. GOETHALS. to between shot to exradition Washington. taking over to for territory. -le be citizen So have a Is that negro, considered quietly, there Governor followed refuge that Yes; our No. was purpose. from who the people is They there but in ItI left need was the case the Magoon as the didis I asked to committing is a was zone negro the directed of Canal not of precedent. the need lgislation? the advised for t case die, and option int Zone. of the man extrad

by altholegisthe of PamuthPaaowtW
PANAMA CANAL. 

after a quarrel at the corral, and shot him after cro

the corral master was arrested in zone territory.

Mr. STEVENS. Have you had any experience, 

your attention, how long a lease of agricultural lan

sary in order to insure a good class of people coming 

ing that land sufficiently to raise provisions 3

Colonel GOETHALS. I have not discussed that q

tion with the Canal Zone land, but only in conne

lands in Panama and Colon, and I believe a long

better, that more substantial buildings may be ere

Mr. STEVENS. About what time do you think t

run?

Colonel GOETHALS. After discussing the matter 

of War we agreed that twenty-five years should 

lease and five years the minimum limit.

Mr. STEVENS. Is there not a limitation as to the 

be occupied thus?

Colonel GOETHALS. In the case of the Panama R

lands, they are building lots only for house purpos

Mr. STEVENS. Mr. Esch wants to ask a question 

Mr. Escii. I guess I've asked all I care to.

Mr. BARTLETT. Without serious interference w

changes of plans, and in case of the necessary fun

by Congress, when can we reasonably expect the wo

Colonel GOETHALS. The minority of the bo

engineers practically fixed January 1, 1915, for th

pletion of the lock type of canal, and we see no rea

not complete the canal within that time.

Mr. STEVENS. Colonel, will you please continu

regarding the probable use of the Panama Railroa

tion of the, canal?

Colonel GOETHALS. We are going to rebuild the 

location, both for construction purposes and fo

poses. I have always been of the opinion that the 

of the railroad will enhance, because ships will co

coasts with cargoes, parts of which will be destine

other coast, and I anticipate a splitting of cargo

shipment purposes cheaper canost? that because of this hold Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel Mr. Colonel War be sssion. statement it.STEVENS. RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON. completed, and to I of GOETHALS. GOETHALS. GOETHALS. do maintain transmission these supply not Then in Could want my cargoes but this You Are and and office, It No; you theit furore am to you operate could, not have of to have I-have question Congress, prepared, prepared the maintenance, prepared be came indicated, not but done othr than not to up, given the and for but by given boats. cme side to and smallubmissirailroad I give I then, a promisby and would statemthat. I up concthathe boin wit 
144 PANAMA CANAL.

k&r. RICHARDSON. Do you know what the es

of the canal that was made at the beginning?

Colonel GOETHALS. Yes; the consulting boar

memory serves me right, estimated that it wo

We will exceed that.

Mr. RICHARDsON. What amount has been alr

Colonel GOETHALS. The consulting board m

basis of the construction of the canal, exclusive 

tion and civil government. Taking the expend

b

the estimates, on the 1st of last July we 

$85,000,000 on the construction of the canal.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What proportion of the 

canal has been completed?

Colonel GOETHALS. It is impossible to state

b

form an estimate of the percentage of the wo

dam, nor the percentage of the locks that have bW

can only state that the excavation of the top lockb

done, leaving half of the middle and practically 

to be done. It would not be possible to give a p

done, as it is so scattered, and much of it so lar

nature so far as the locks and dams are concern

Mr. RICHARDSON. Do you believe the cost w

estimate made?

Colonel GOETHALS. I know it will.

Mr. HUBBARD. Have you considered the desi

ment of Agriculture establishing experimental s

Colonel GOtTHALS. I have always believed i

b

the question was taken up about a year and a 

learned that such stations could not be establis

appropriation by Congress

Mr. RICHARDSON. colonel, were you advise

state an estimate of the cost of the canal; you 

to do it on account of the press.

Colonel GOETHALS. There is a representative p

I do not care to have the matter made public 

time.

The CHAIRMAN. That was not the question as

the call merely published come reported areccounts. Mr. Colonel The Mr. The Colonpl Gatun going of up, STEVENS. HUBBARD. CHAIRMAN. the CHAIRMAN. asked on and GOETHALS. before to GOETHALS. chairman. dam thebe if Islipping anyone project. thought I duly you And think Have Thencame No; shocked No, you had down. not, that we the Some they do sir; here anydvised Mr. committee I not and it had of have more if Chairman. is our wish thisorrified, better you personal. had witnessesparticulaquestion to will not enougdo hold toadit ab
PANAMA CANAL. 

RESOLUTIONS ADOPTED AT A MASS MEETING HELD IN Y. M

GONA, ON THE EVENING OF JANUARY 6 TO PROTEST AGAIN

OPERATION OF COMMISSARIES.

Whereas it has come to our notice that certain merchants 

and Colon, Republic of Panama, are circulating for signatu

to the President of the United States, in which, among oth

1. That the commissary stores should import only such a

post canteens in the United States;

2. That the commissary stores should sell merchandise o

the United States, and only victuals to the employees of th

3. That the Isthmian Canal Commission should not be pe

wise to enter into competition with native enterprises.

And whereas it is apparent that if this preposterous requ

chants be complied with by the President of the United 

place a large curtailment of what is now known as "commis

unnecessary and humiliating hardship forced upon the Am

Isthmian Canal Commission and Panama Railroad.

And whereas it is obvious that the request "that the Ist

should not be permitted to enter into competition with nat

preted to mean the abolishing of the commissary bakery, 

other departments that have long been looked upon as nec

employees. And whereas the successful accomplishment of the dema

chants means that the American residents of the city of G

similarly situated will be almost wholly dependent upon C

purchase of a large amount of goods that are considered necess

can home.

And whereas past and present experience regarding price

dise handled by the merchants of the Isthmus of Panama 

employees to the logical conclusion that the continuance 

several departments of the commissary, without change, is es

physical well-being, contentment, efficiency, and retention 

And whereas it is perfectly obvious that the proposals of th

made solely toward the end of enriching themselves at the 

employees of the Isthmian Canal Commission and Panama R

And whereas it is and has been an undisputed fact that the 

of the Isthmian Canal Commission is an inherent and essen

tion now being used for the construction of the Panama Can

And whereas it would be a physical impossibility for a

magnitude than the Panama Railroad to maintain an effi

could satisfactorily supply the employees of the Isthmian 

Panama Railroad residing along the line of the work with the 

that they are now enjoying.

And whereas the answer given by ex-Governor Charles 

merchants in 1905 in which he said "that no country cou

j

bringing an army of several thousand men into a strange 

would adjourned. broad and Railroad will enjoyed Railroad. that commissaries ductive Be The is tendhe it it and be as 70178-PAN resolutions further resolved, of by time unanswerable resident pleased to nothing comprehensive the curtail whichis resolved, American -By now to in were save CAN-09-10 see the in dates Gorgona ripe Mr. That Mr. to-day any eradicated. put more employees employees and plans backC. FRANK C. A E. to way, in or L. R. that B. asM. opportune a the less for three vote PRENTIS, GEDDES, it CORROTHERS, shape, ROBINSON, MORRISON, we opinion was their of ill ofand and the protest the feeling, three 0subsistence or to Members Engineer were Storekeeper, Isthmian one-half of Isthmian manner settle and the District emphatically Gorgona Gorgona which unanimouslAmericanone-half of for Corps, years Canal the Canal and the all GorgTax ShopShoCcotiAcaGC
*-T - - --sx j

- 
o c, to 

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'c I o

io. 

o A 

%no x-nxv>vv -1 ny - r, J AW o o' o, . - . , ; , i is W, :N'T K W, 1-A a, ?TIN o", v

-q- i .1- - -, -o ON

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UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA

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