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26–773 2018

SERVING SMALL BUSINESSES: EXAMINING THE 

EFFECTIVENESS OF HUBZONE REFORMS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

UNITED STATES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

HEARING HELD 

SEPTEMBER 13, 2017 

Small Business Committee Document Number 115–035 

Available via the GPO Website: www.fdsys.gov 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER


Congress.#13
(II) 

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Chairman 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri 

DAVE BRAT, Virginia 

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American Samoa 

STEVE KNIGHT, California 

TRENT KELLY, Mississippi 

ROD BLUM, Iowa 

JAMES COMER, Kentucky 

JENNIFFER GONZA ́ LEZ-COLO ́ N, Puerto Rico 

DON BACON, Nebraska 

BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania 

ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas 

RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina 

NYDIA VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member 

DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania 

STEPHANIE MURPHY, Florida 

AL LAWSON, JR., Florida 

YVETTE CLARK, New York 

JUDY CHU, California 

ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina 

ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York 

BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois 

VACANT 

KEVIN FITZPATRICK, Majority Staff Director 

JAN OLIVER, Majority Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

ADAM MINEHARDT, Staff Director 

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(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Hon. Steve Chabot ................................................................................................... 1 

Hon. Nydia Vela ́zquez ............................................................................................. 1 

WITNESSES 

Ms. Shirley Bailey, Co-Owner-Executive Vice President and Chief Operating 

Officer, GCC Technologies, LLC, Oakland, MD, testifying on behalf of the 

HUBZone Contractors National Council ............................................................ 5 

Mr. Robert A. Schuerger, II, Principal and Attorney at Law, Law Offices 

of Robert A. Schuerger Co., LPA, Columbus, OH ............................................. 6 

Mr. Dennis DuFour, President, TDEC, Oakland, MD .......................................... 8 

Mr. Carlos Mele ́ndez, Chief Operating Officer and Co-Founder, Wovenware, 

San Juan, P.R. ...................................................................................................... 9 

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statements: 

Ms. Shirley Bailey, Co-Owner-Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, GCC Technologies, LLC, Oakland, MD, testifying on behalf of the HUBZone Contractors National Council .................................. 24 

Mr. Robert A. Schuerger, II, Principal and Attorney at Law, Law Offices 

of Robert A. Schuerger Co., LPA, Columbus, OH ...................................... 32 

Mr. Dennis DuFour, President, TDEC, Oakland, MD .................................. 35 

Mr. Carlos Mele ́ndez, Chief Operating Officer and Co-Founder, 

Wovenware, San Juan, P.R. ......................................................................... 40 

Questions and Answers for the Record: 

Question from Representative Radewagen to Ms. Shirley Bailey ................ 48 

Question from Representative Radewagen to Mr. Carlos Mele ́ndez ............ 49 

Additional Material for the Record: 

None. 

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SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

(1) 

SERVING SMALL BUSINESSES: EXAMINING 

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF HUBZONE REFORMS 

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 13, 2017 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 11:00 a.m., in Room 

2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Steve Chabot [chairman of the Committee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Chabot, Luetkemeyer, Kelly, Blum, 

Comer, Bacon, Fitzpatrick, Marshall, Norman, Vela ́zquez, Evans, 

Clarke, Adams, and Schneider. 

Chairman CHABOT. Good morning. The Committee will come to 

order. 

We are here today to talk about H.R. 3294, the HUBZone Unification and Business Stability Act of 2017. This bipartisan bill implements important reforms of the Small Business Administration’s 

Historically Underutilized Business Zone Program, more commonly 

known as the HUBZone Program. The program’s core mission is to 

bring economic hope, independence, jobs, and businesses to depressed areas marked by high unemployment and poverty. This is 

accomplished through the use of Federal contracting preferences. 

H.R. 3294 helps the program achieve its mission objectives by 

providing legislative solutions to the challenges and weaknesses 

identified by small businesses and government watchdogs. Measures proposed in this bill would create more opportunities for our 

rural communities by potentially expanding the number of rural 

areas qualified for HUBZone area designation. Certified firms operating within economically distressed rural and urban communities 

would benefit from the consistency this bill would bring to the everchanging HUBZone area designations. These measures would encourage small businesses currently deterred by these issues to now 

seek their HUBZone certification, which would promote greater 

competition within the Federal contracting landscape. The bill 

would also create an extra layer of protection for areas devastated 

by natural disasters or catastrophic events by potentially prolonging the area’s HUBZone designation. This is intended to promote revitalization and economic growth within those unique 

areas. 

This change is particularly relevant in light of what our neighbors in Texas and Louisiana and Florida have faced following Hurricanes Harvey and Irma. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Puerto Rico, too. 

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2 

Chairman CHABOT. Yes, and in Puerto Rico as well, and in 

many of the islands in the Caribbean. 

Additionally, the bill would strengthen performance assessment 

and fraud prevention measures recommended by the Government 

Accountability Office, GAO. This includes mandating the collection 

of critical performance measures and requiring the SBA to verify 

recertification information. These are among a few of the provisions 

in the bill intended to benefit HUBZones, small businesses, and the 

communities in which they operate. 

I have always said that this Committee is a rare place where bipartisanship is the norm and crafting good policy for the betterment of small businesses knows no party lines. This has truly been 

a bipartisan effort to begin fixing the core issues facing the 

HUBZone Program. And I would like to especially thank our ranking member, Ms. Vela ́zquez, for leading this important piece of legislation, and I hope that this is a positive first towards reforming 

the HUBZone Program. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses here this morning. 

We have a very distinguished panel, all of whom are HUBZone 

small business owners themselves. 

We want to thank all of you for being here today, and I would 

now like to yield to the ranking member, Ms. Vela ́zquez, for her 

opening statement. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I, too, echo 

your comments. We enjoy a very good working relationship. We 

know our responsibility in this Committee is to work on behalf of 

small businesses and that is what we do. And in that spirit, we 

craft bipartisan legislation, and when we do that we have a better 

product and we are all very proud of it. Each year, the federal government procures more than $400 billion in goods and services from businesses around the country 

through government contracts. The Historically Underutilized 

Business Zone Program, or HUBZone Program, was created in 

1997 to provide federal assistance to firms located in economically 

distressed areas. By lowering barriers to entry into the federal 

marketplace for these firms, the HUBZone Program has fostered 

competition while helping rebuild communities. Businesses in 

HUBZones play a large and vital role in our nation’s economy because they create jobs for those residing both inside and outside of 

these economically distressed areas. 

However, since its implementation, the HUBZone Program has 

not reached its full potential. From ensuring that only certified 

businesses enter the program, to being able to present evidence 

that the program is meetings its mission, SBA has largely failed 

in the basic operation of this program. This Committee has heard 

from the GAO on a number of occasions, each time they report on 

the program’s problems. Most disappointing to me was the poor 

oversight that allowed GAO investigators to get fake businesses 

certified even though they did not meet eligibility requirements. In 

most instances, those certifications could have been verified by 

SBA simply asking for additional information on the location of the 

business. 

While GAO’s most recent report shows that there have been improvements in the certification process, these changes are not 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

3 

enough to ensure that businesses are adhering to the program’s requirements. This shows a clear need for legislation. That is why I 

introduced H.R. 3294, the HUBZone Uniformity and Business Stability Act of 2017, or HUBS Act, along with Chairman Chabot. This 

bill will help ensure that small firms in underutilized business 

areas have fair and equal access to the federal marketplace. Many 

areas will likely lose status this year because of changing data, 

crippling many rural economies. 

H.R. 3294 will forestall this change in many affected areas. The 

HUBS Act will establish a 5-year cycle for determining the geographic boundaries of HUBZones, creating greater certainty for 

companies. It will also change the calculations for how certain geographic areas qualify for the program, potentially adding as many 

as 1,000 rural and nonurban counties. This alone has the potential 

to help more businesses avail themselves of the HUBZone initiative 

benefits. Most importantly, the legislation includes new performance metrics to ensure the data collected by the SBA will allow us 

to measure the program’s success and economic impact. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about how the 

proposed legislation can improve the HUBZone Program and provide sufficient oversight for initial certification, recertification, and 

business development to ensure new businesses enter the program. 

Nearly 90 percent of the HUBZone areas still do not have a business participating in the area. This low participation rate has resulted in the failure to meet the 3 percent prime and 3 percent subcontracting goals. 

The dollars and actions awarded through these programs have 

continually decreased since fiscal year 2008. Only 82,000 actions 

worth $6.8 billion, negative 1.67 percent of prime contracting dollars, were awarded to HUBZone firms in fiscal year 2016. It is my 

hope that this Committee can work together to reverse this trend. 

I want to take this opportunity to thank all the witnesses who 

are going to be offering their insights on making the program more 

effective and helping economically challenged areas. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I yield back. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. The gentlelady 

yields back. 

And if Committee members have opening statements, we would 

ask that they be submitted for the record. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

And I will take this time now to explain our timing limits here 

and the lighting system which will assist you in keeping to the 

time limits. It is pretty simple. You get 5 minutes and then we will 

have 5 minutes each of us to ask questions. And there is a lighting 

system that will help you a bit. The green light will stay on for 4 

minutes. The yellow light will come on to let you know you have 

a minute to wrap up. And then the red light will come on and we 

would ask you to, you know, try to stick within that if at all possible. We will let you go over a little bit, but not too much. So try 

to stay within that if at all possible. 

I would now like to introduce our panel here. The first witness 

will be Shirley Bailey. Ms. Bailey appeared before the Subcommittee on Contracting and Workforce earlier this year, and we 

welcome you back here today. Ms. Bailey is testifying today in her 

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capacity as a board chair of the HUBZone Contractors National 

Council. Ms. Bailey has been deeply involved in the HUBZone Program for many years, both in her service as a HUBZone Council 

board member and in her personal experience as a small business 

owner. Ms. Bailey is the co-owner, executive vice president, and 

chief operating officer of GCC Technologies, a successful HUBZonecertified small business located in Garrett County, Maryland. We 

are looking forward to hearing your testimony here this morning. 

Welcome. 

Our second witness is Robert Schuerger. Mr. Schuerger is the 

founder and lead attorney for a successful HUBZone-certified law 

firm based in Columbus, Ohio, with an office in Wilmington, Ohio. 

Why not Cincinnati, too? My goodness. 

In addition to serving various public sector clients, including 

local governments, hospitals, and universities, Mr. Schuerger’s firm 

also works with the United States Department of Education. His 

firm was recently awarded a prime contract with the United States 

Department of Justice, in large part due to his HUBZone certification. We thank you for being here and we look forward to your 

testimony, as well. 

And our third witness is Mr. Dennis DuFour. Mr. DuFour joined 

The Data Entry Company, or TDEC, 20 years ago after a career 

in the insurance industry and is the third generation within his 

family to serve as president of the company. TDEC is a HUBZonecertified small business providing labor-intensive services to the 

public and private sectors, such as document management and call 

center assistance. Under Mr. DuFour’s leadership, the company tripled its revenues and expanded its growth in the Federal sector to 

include over a dozen Federal clients. Some of these clients include 

the Department of Homeland Security, Department of Labor, Department of Justice, and Department of Defense. And we also welcome and thank you for your testimony. 

And I would now like to yield to the ranking member to introduce our fourth witness. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

It is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Carlos Mele ́ndez, the COO and 

cofounder of Wovenware, an 8(a) and HUBZone-certified small 

business located in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Since 2003, Wovenware 

has been developing custom software solutions for enterprises in 

the telecommunications, healthcare, and distribution industries. 

Today, Wovenware has more than 90 employees in Puerto Rico that 

are mostly engineers, computer scientists, and data scientists. 

Wovenware has been part of Inc.’s 5,000 list of the fastest-growing 

private companies in the U.S. three times, and 60 percent of its 

revenue comes from customers located outside Puerto Rico. Mr. 

Mele ́ndez has a bachelor’s degree in electrical engineering and a 

juris doctor, both from the University of Puerto Rico. Mr. Mele ́ndez 

is also the vice chairman of the board of ConPRmetidos, a nonprofit 

organization that connects people to faster commitment with personal, social, and economic development of Puerto Rican communities wherever they are. Thank you, and welcome. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. We welcome all the 

witnesses here, and Ms. Bailey, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

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5 

STATEMENTS OF SHIRLEY BAILEY, CO-OWNER-EXECUTIVE 

VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, GCC 

TECHNOLOGIES, LLC; ROBERT A. SCHUERGER, II, PRINCIPAL AND ATTORNEY AT LAW, LAW OFFICES OF ROBERT A. 

SCHUERGER CO., LPA; DENNIS DUFOUR, PRESIDENT, TDEC; 

CARLOS MELE ́ NDEZ, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER AND COFOUNDER, WOVENWARE 

STATEMENT OF SHIRLEY BAILEY 

Ms. BAILEY. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Chabot, Ranking 

Member Vela ́zquez, and members of the Committee. My name is 

Shirley Bailey, president and board chair of the HUBZone Contractors National Council. I appreciate the opportunity to testify before 

you today. 

The council’s membership includes HUBZone-certified small businesses, other small businesses, prime contractors, and other organizations interested in the HUBZone Program. In addition, the 

HUBZone Council is an advocate as it relates to procurement and 

entrepreneurial policy and continues to seek needed modernization 

of the program. To that end, the Council fully supports H.R. 3294, 

the HUBZone Uniformity and Business Stability Act of 2017. 

During the Subcommittee on Contracting and Workforce’s March 

2 HUBZone hearing titled ‘‘Learning from History: Ideas to 

strengthen and modernize the HUBZone Program,’’ the council’s 

testimony revolved around the lack of business certainty, constantly changing area designations, and lack of performance 

metrics. I am pleased to see that the Committee has taken steps 

to address these issues and others in H.R. 3294. 

The first important reform in H.R. 3294 that I would like to discuss is the transition from the annual ACS designation updates to 

a 5-year cycle beginning in 2020. Freezing designation changes 

with the exception of disaster area and BRAC declarations will provide businesses operating in HUBZones the stability and certainty 

that they need to make the necessary investments in their communities without worrying that they will lose their HUBZone designation the following year. 

The second major reform included in section 3 of the bill eliminates the qualifier nonmetropolitan from State median income 

when determining area eligibility. Currently, a nonmetropolitan 

county must have a median income below 80 percent of the State’s 

nonmetropolitan median income to qualify for HUBZone designation. Of our Nation’s 1,984 nonmetropolitan counties, only 207 currently qualify for HUBZone designation under this income formula. 

However, 89 percent of all of our nonmetropolitan counties in the 

U.S. have median incomes less than 80 percent of their State median incomes. We believe that this change will go a long way toward creating jobs in rural America and assist in bridging the income gaps by providing opportunities and economic development in 

our Nation’s most distressed areas. 

I would like to give you a few State examples of the number of 

additional nonmetropolitan areas qualified as HUBZone areas as a 

result of the income calculation reform in this bill. There will be 

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6 

sional District; 20 counties in Kentucky, including 9 counties in 

Kentucky’s First Congressional District; 28 counties in Kansas, including 13 counties in Kansas’s First Congressional District; 6 

counties in Mississippi, including Calhoun, Choctaw, and 

Oktibbeha, sorry about that, in Mississippi’s First Congressional 

District; 21 counties in Florida, including Putnam County in Florida’s Seventh Congressional District; 5 counties in South Carolina, 

including Cherokee County in South Carolina’s Fifth Congressional 

District; 11 counties in Iowa, including Floyd, Monona, Webster, 

and Wright counties in Iowa’s Fourth Congressional District. 

Another critical reform pertains to qualified disaster areas. In 

light of recent Hurricanes Harvey and Irma, H.R. 3294 includes a 

timely provision that empowers the SBA administrator to extend 

the HUBZone designation of a qualified disaster area that has not 

fully recovered. As we know from past national disasters, recovery 

can take months, and sometimes even years, before communities 

are made whole again. Our hearts go out to the victims of these 

historic storms, and it will take all of us to help these areas truly 

recover. We believe the extended HUBZone designation can play an 

important role in recovery efforts. 

As I stated in March, many areas are going to lose their 

HUBZone status by the beginning of 2018. Our members need Congress to act this year to avoid a major disruption in the program. 

As this bill suggests, the HUBZone Program cannot succeed with 

eligibility constantly in flux. Any delay will result in substantial 

loss of HUBZone firms. Not only is this difficult for small HUBZone 

companies, it is also a setback for the HUBZone qualified areas 

that need the business income and job generation this program encourages. 

As a point of personal privilege, I would like to acknowledge Vivian Ling of Chair Chabot’s staff and Helena Locke on Ranking 

Member Vela ́zquez’s staff for their hard work in collaboration with 

the council in drafting this important reform legislation. 

Again, I would like to thank you for allowing the council to testify at this very important hearing, and I look forward to answering any questions. Thank you. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. Our staff loves those 

shout outs, so thank you very much. They do not get enough, so 

we appreciate their hard work. 

Mr. Schuerger, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF ROBERT SCHUERGER, II 

Mr. SCHUERGER. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Chabot, 

Ranking Member Vela ́zquez, and members of the Committee. My 

name is Robert Schuerger, and I am the founder and lead attorney 

for the Law Offices of Robert A. Schuerger. Founded in 2008, we 

have been a HUBZone-certified law firm since August 2016. I am 

also a member of the HUBZone Council. Thank you for giving me 

the opportunity to testify today. 

Chairman Chabot, it gives me great pride to know that the Committee is led by a fellow Buckeye. Thank you. 

Schuerger Law’s principal office is based in a HUBZone in urban 

downtown Columbus, Ohio. We also maintain an office and 11 employees in Wilmington, in rural Clinton County, Ohio. Since our 

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founding, Schuerger Law has grown to 52 employees. This job increase is directly attributable to our HUBZone status as it has allowed us to become a Federal subcontractor to the Department of 

Education and a prime contractor for the Department of Justice. 

The Clinton County office was uniquely qualified to be our satellite office as DHL had just moved out of the regional airport, 

leaving thousands without jobs. We have stepped in and taken over 

a space in the airport with a target to grow the business through 

our Federal procurement to at least 40 jobs. 

I am pleased the Committee has undertaken the task of changing 

a program badly in need of change. In my view, H.R. 3294, the 

HUBZone Uniformity and Business Stability Act of 2017, provides 

much needed stability to companies like mine. Clinton County, 

home of Wilmington, will lose its HUBZone designation in 2018. I 

certainly favor the approach in H.R. 3294 which freezes the current 

HUBZone eligibility maps until 2020. It would provide us with the 

transition time our firm needs while we decide how to keep our valued employees and find a new office. Transitioning from the annual 

ACS to a 5-year process will enable our firm to find that location 

and make the capital investments necessary to continue bringing 

economic development to the hard-working people of Ohio. 

The HUBZone online tool, that requires the SBA to ‘‘clearly and 

conspicuously provide access to the data used by the administrator 

to determine whether or not an area is a qualified area in the year 

in which the online tool was prepared’’ is also a significant requirement. 

It will assist HUBZone firms that maintain offices in multiple locations, like Schuerger Law. This tool, updated every 5 years, 

would ensure HUBZone firms have the latest information on 

HUBZone eligible areas. This bill also ensures that the SBA administrator removes redesignated areas that are no longer qualified, which has been a problem in the past with many companies 

who have undergone the extensive certification process only to find 

the HUBZone qualified area lost its designation. 

Another provision of the bill, including subsection 31(d)(6) provides a firm who loses certification 30 days to submit documentation to the SBA to reestablish eligibility. Since the certification 

process is time-consuming, this is a commonsense approach to the 

process. We believe it will incentivize HUBZone participation. 

Firms that may be hesitant to become HUBZone certified have 

clear recourse should they feel that their certification was unjustly 

revoked. 

I would note that the Federal Government has never met its goal 

of contracting 3 percent of its contracts to HUBZone companies. I 

would urge the Committee to keep up its oversight of Federal agencies and encourage them to contract with HUBZone firms. It is certainly important to Clinton County, Ohio, and many other areas in 

this country. Adoption of this legislation is critical to the success 

of the program, and time is of the essence. We really need action 

this year to ensure that firms like mine can continue to work in 

the program. 

In closing, I want to emphasize that the HUBZone Program is an 

important economic development program. Incentivizing companies 

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to locate in depressed areas is a good policy approach. However, 

changes must be made to the program, such as those in H.R. 3294. 

Thank you for the attention you have brought to this critical 

issue, and for all of your work supporting our Nation’s small businesses and those in Ohio. I look forward to answering any questions. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. DuFour, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF DENNIS DUFOUR 

Mr. DUFOUR. Chairman Chabot, Ranking Member Vela ́zquez, 

and members of the Committee, my name is Dennis DuFour and 

I am the president of The Data Entry Company, TDEC. I appreciate this opportunity. 

TDEC was started in 1958 by my grandfather, who was an insurance agent. He sold a group hospitalization policy to the National 

Active and Retired Federal Employee Association and needed a 

way to process applications, so he started TDEC to open mail, 

enter application data onto punch cards, and deposit checks. Shortly thereafter, my dad went to work for TDEC, adding customers 

like the National Geographic Society, Citibank Credit Cards, and 

the Republican National Committee. A stressful time was had 

when the FBI decided to investigate a break-in in the Watergate 

and wanted to see the data we had collected. That investigation ultimately ended in the resignation of Richard Nixon. 

Today, 59 years later, my brother and I run TDEC, focusing on 

similar services as the founding, including data entry. We have 300 

employees and do not take lightly the fact that we run a third-generation business, which statistically only survives 12 percent of the 

time. 

In March of 2002, I applied for HUBZone certification. The program analyst assigned to our application was Mariana Pardo, who 

I note is now the director of the HUBZone Program. After a thorough examination of our application, we were welcomed into the 

program shortly thereafter. We began to market this valuable certification to the Federal Government and to large prime contractors. Five years later, we won our first prime contract with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, providing administrative support services to the Northwest and Alaska Fisheries 

Science Centers. We were re-awarded this contract in 2012. We 

continue to serve for this valuable customer today. 

For 15 years, we have continuously maintained our HUBZone 

certification through examinations, recertifications, and even a protest. We are proud to report that 47 percent of our employees live 

in HUBZones, which is significantly higher than the 35 percent requirement of the program. We achieve this because we continually 

seek to hire, attract, and retain employees in underserved, economically distressed areas. 

In 2018, 4 months from now, Garrett County, where my and 11 

other businesses are located, will no longer be a HUBZone. I was 

wondering if this was an isolated event, so my team and I researched and found that there are 15 other counties similar to Garrett that will lose their HUBZone certification in January. We also 

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found another 71 counties will lose their certification in July of 

2018. 

Knowing that I was not alone, I started a campaign to reach out 

to HUBZones. I called this ‘‘Save our HUBZone.’’ And I asked a 

very simple question to other HUBZone firms like TDEC, ‘‘How 

will losing your HUBZone status affect your business?’’ I received 

many replies. Here are a few. 

From Detroit, ‘‘HUBZone communities need HUBZone companies. No one better understands the community than those who are 

in it. Take away the lifeline of the community and the community 

itself will wither.’’ 

Atlanta, ‘‘I am looking to hire students that come from a community that needs assistance, public assistance. We are providing jobs 

because of our HUBZone certification.’’ 

Hamilton County, Ohio; Cincinnati, Ohio, ‘‘HUBZone firms are 

vital to creating jobs and employment opportunities for the citizens 

who reside in HUBZones, most of whom are not highly skilled, but 

are hardworking, dedicated, and want to learn.’’ 

So my message is simple: We need stability. Stability will be 

achieved by freezing the HUBZone map until 2020 and then adjusting it every 5 years thereafter. Remember, it took us 5 years to get 

our first prime contract. 

In the coming weeks, we need to decide whether we stay in our 

current location in Garrett County or move. If we move, many people will lose their jobs, coupled with the fact that we have been in 

Garrett County for over 50 years. Frankly, it is difficult, costly, and 

a distraction to move a business. So I ask you to act immediately 

on H.R. 3294 and give HUBZone communities stability. It is the 

most important economic issue facing rural American today. 

Again, I appreciate this opportunity, and I am available to answer any questions. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Mele ́ndez, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF CARLOS MELE ́ NDEZ 

Mr. MELE ́ NDEZ. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Chabot, 

Ranking Member Vela ́zquez, members of the House Small Business 

Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today as the 

Committee examines the effectiveness of HUBZone reform. 

My name is Carlos Mele ́ndez, and I am the cofounder and chief 

operating officer of Wovenware, an 8(a) and HUBZone-certified 

business located in San Juan, Puerto Rico. 

As you all know, Puerto Rico was seriously affected by Hurricane 

Irma 1 week ago today. Most of the island has been without power 

and water at different points, but as you can attest from my presence here today, we are resilient and do not let these types of setbacks stand in our way of achieving economic development for our 

U.S. territory. 

Since 2003, my company, Wovenware, has been developing custom software solutions for enterprises in industries such as telecommunications, healthcare, and distribution. 

It took us 3 months to organize and fill the application for the 

HUBZone Program and 3 additional months to get certified. We are 

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grateful for the help provided by our local PTAC, the Puerto Rico 

Federal Contracting Center, before and during the process. 

Here at Wovenware, we have recently been highly focused on developing smart and predictive software solutions that use artificial 

intelligence, predominantly Deep Learning, to help companies derive greater insights from their data and automate key functions. 

This deep expertise has allowed Wovenware to enter the Federal 

market and conduct AI-related projects for the National Geospatial 

Intelligence Agency. Today, Wovenware employs more than 90 people, most of whom are software engineers, computer, and data scientists. 

Despite the fact that Wovenware has been part of the Inc. 5000 

list of the fastest-growing companies for 3 years, and that 60 percent of our revenue comes from customers outside our physical island boundaries, it is only recently that we were given the opportunity to work with the Federal Government as a subcontractor on 

a DigitalGlobe NGA contract. We need more out-of-the-box thinkers 

like DigitalGlobe’s executives Rob Torres and Tony Frazier, who 

gave us the opportunity to win this Federal contract. 

‘‘Lead with quality, not certification,’’ was the recommendations 

Mr. Robb N. Wong, associate administrator of the SBA, gave companies like ours during a previous hearing of this Committee. A 

fair recommendation, but one in my opinion that underestimates 

the difficulty of getting your first Federal contract, despite years of 

high-quality, referenceable private business experience, especially 

in an economically depressed area like Puerto Rico. 

It has taken Wovenware almost 4 years and significant investments to get our first Federal contract. I hope the proposed new 

performance metrics outlined in the HUBS Act put a spotlight on 

this problem and help SBA develop initiatives to stimulate the opportunities that originally inspire hope for HUBZone companies. 

While we are pleased to have received HUBZone certification late 

last year, there is much more that can be done to ensure that it 

accomplishes its original goal, to give small businesses in underserved areas a chance to succeed. It is our hope that a reformed 

HUBZone Program lowers the barrier of entry for Federal contracts 

for companies like ours. 

While currently one-third of Federal contracts are filled right 

here in Washington, D.C., and the remainder elsewhere in the U.S. 

States, Wovenware’s success serves to prove that there is enormous 

untapped potential for making Puerto Rico and other HUBZone 

areas the next frontier for outsourced Federal projects. 

Three key amendments on the HUBZone reform bill have the potential to generate this environment. These amendments are the 

new performance metrics, new 5-year time model, and grace period. 

The new performance metrics will highlight the use, and not use, 

of the program by Federal agencies and how effective, or ineffective, the program is in helping businesses sell to the Federal Government. 

The 5-year time model that will allow the SBA to recalculate 

HUBZone areas in 5-year increments and the grace period for firms 

dropping below the 35 percent threshold for employees from a 

HUBZone will provide Federal agencies certainty into the number 

of HUBZone companies available for their contracting opportuniSBREP-219A with DISTILLER

11 

ties. It is my hope that this certainty will translate into additional 

HUBZone-only opportunities and will thus increase the use of the 

HUBZone Program to the point where the 3 percent contracting 

mandate be achieved. 

Revising the provisions of the HUBZone Program so that it remains true to its original intentions, to jumpstart opportunities for 

small businesses to succeed, would empower small businesses not 

only in Puerto Rico but across the country with a path to revitalized growth. 

The spirit of innovation, entrepreneurship, and inspiration, combined with a steadfast perseverance, that Hurricane Irma proved 

so well, is alive and well in Puerto Rico. A reinvigorated HUBZone 

Program would be just the right spark, not only for Puerto Rico, 

but for small businesses everywhere to ignite hope, confidence, and 

ultimately growth that will stimulate healthy economies across the 

country. Thank you. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

And I will now recognize myself to begin the questioning for 5 

minutes. 

Mr. DuFour, I think I am going to start with you. I had, quite 

frankly, kind of a boring technical question I was going to ask you. 

Then you talked about Nixon and Watergate. Tell us about that. 

How was your company involved in that? That has got to be interesting? 

Mr. DUFOUR. So, the Republican National Committee, back in 

the day when they solicited donations, they would solicit donation 

checks and basically a remittance slip. And our firm would enter 

the donation information—name, address, other information that 

needed to be filed with the Federal Election Commission—and deposit the check for the RNC. 

And so one summer we were on vacation and my dad got a call 

from the office. And the office said, ‘‘Mr. DuFour,’’ who he is here 

today, ‘‘The FBI is in the lobby and they want to see the data that 

we have collected for the RNC.’’ And he said, ‘‘I will be right there.’’ 

Well, it was an 8-hour drive and he got right there. And he said 

to the FBI, ‘‘Well, this is not public information. I do not think I 

can share this with you.’’ And they retorted, ‘‘Then we are going 

to shut down your business.’’ And he said, ‘‘Here is the data.’’ 

So ultimately, that did lead to extend the investigation, and unfortunately, the resignation of our sitting president. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

Now I will get to my boring questions and things of that nature. 

Ms. Bailey, I am going to start out with the boring questions 

with you. You have highlighted that this bill may extend the number of rural areas qualified for HUBZone designation. Could you 

describe some of the challenges that your firm and other rural 

firms encounter that may differ from those located in urban areas? 

And how will this legislation help to alleviate those issues? 

Ms. BAILEY. Okay, definitely. Many of the rural areas, one of 

the major issues that they have is, one, they do not have the population density. People tend to be spread out. They are not around 

a central major industry such as the Federal Government. They 

tend to be further around 50, you know, further past 50 miles from 

those distance, so you have larger commute type things. They do 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

12 

not have the access to the infrastructure in a lot of the cases. You 

do not have strong connections with broadband, those types of 

areas, where we need the encouragement of additional companies 

coming into these areas to make it feasible and more cost-effective 

for agencies to come in and put the infrastructure in place. So you 

are looking at these types of areas where you are dependent upon 

these companies, and the HUBZone Program, if we can get companies to relocate and help with the economic development of these 

rural areas, then we are going to be able to add the infrastructure 

and the training and the capacity for these employees and have 

other opportunities that may be in the areas that these individuals 

are actually locating. 

A lot of rural areas are not interested in relocating to the cities 

for employment. They have to travel long distances to do that, and 

although I am not saying that they do not, because a lot of them 

do it out of necessity, but from a family standpoint and from them 

being able to keep their unit together, and for us to be able to encourage our children to stay in their hometowns, to go to college, 

come back to their hometowns and invest in their hometowns, the 

HUBZone Program is a great way to do that and to help with the 

economic development in these areas. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Schuerger, one of the reasons the Federal Government has 

not met its 3 percent HUBZone small business goal is because 

there is some belief, I think, among some that among the agencies 

that the HUBZone small businesses are limited to a certain type 

of work, like janitorial services, for example. Could you talk about 

your experiences, kind of overcoming such obstacles? And do you 

have any suggestions on how to reverse that type of thinking? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. Yes. Thank you for the question. 

In our situation, it was a unique opportunity because we do a lot 

of inbound/outbound call center work, collections work, and we 

were able to team up with Franklin County and their res care operation, and actually, they helped us recruit potential employees for 

the firm that we would then bring in, train, and then a number of 

them would become full-time employees for the law firm. So I think 

the goal is to, with this bill, allowing other types of companies to 

pursue HUBZone opportunities by increasing the geographic region 

of that will, in essence, help more different types of companies to 

go after the HUBZone status. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

I apologize, Mr. Mele ́ndez, I have run out of time. So I now recognize the ranking member for 5 minutes. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Mele ́ndez, the federal government has yet to meet the 3 percent prime contracting goal or the 3 percent subcontracting goal for 

the HUBZone Program. Furthermore, only 25 percent of dollars 

awarded to HUBZone firms come from a HUBZone contract. What 

do you recommend Congress do to spare agency use of the sole 

source and set-aside authority given to them through the HUBZone 

Program? 

Mr. MELE ́ NDEZ. Yes. My first recommendation is that the performance metrics will help a lot to shine a spotlight on that problem. I think first of all it is going to be a data problem, getting the 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

13 

information out there. Then it is going to be how the SBA and Congress can help show that information in a useful way that tells a 

story of how HUBZones are really not being used. That should 

pressure agencies to take a hard look into what they are doing and 

think outside the box and just bring more opportunities for sole 

source and HUBZone-only contracts because they will see that 

there are companies that can actually provide those services. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

Ms. Bailey, as we discussed before, program participation 

dropped immensely following the release of the 2010 census data, 

and the program now also incorporates the ACS data that updates 

every year causing more uncertainty. Furthermore, nearly 90 percent of HUBZones do not have a single certified firm. How will the 

proposed 5-year cycle impact HUBZone Program participation from 

a business owner perspective? 

Ms. BAILEY. Definitely, it is going to give us more certainty because knowing that you have 5 years and the requirement to have 

the available data there will give the business owner the opportunity to be able to assess areas that if he has to move, where he 

could go to and have more information. It is going to allow companies to consider when they are coming into the HUBZone Program 

how much time they have. And also, in addition, even if they do 

come within that 5-year period and the area does get redesignated, 

they still have the 3 years, which will give them that period of time 

to make these decisions. The 5-year is going to provide people who 

are entering into long-term leases. A lot of our leases are 5-year 

terms. Contracts are 5-year terms. So that will give us the ability 

to make those decisions on doing that. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

Mr. Schuerger, would you like to comment on the same question? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. I would, yes, echo Shirley’s sentiments that 

the 5-year, you know, someone like myself, it is a critical part because you invest in infrastructure. You invest in job training. You 

create jobs in areas that, you know, that jobs need to be created. 

And then, you know, 6 months later, or a year later as is current, 

the rug gets pulled out from under you. So I believe strongly in this 

bill that that 5-year window will then allow more companies to 

pursue the HUBZone status to create those jobs knowing that there 

is stability within the program. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

And Mr. Schuerger, I would like you to comment on the following 

question. SBA does not currently send individual notices to businesses to notify them of changes affecting their HUBZone eligibility. SBA has stated that it is a business owner’s duty to keep 

up to date. How realistic is it for small firms to be aware of every 

change potentially affecting their status? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. I think it is very tough, particularly when, 

you know, I mean, obviously, it is our responsibility as companies 

to try to stay up to date, but it is also the SBA’s responsibility to 

make sure that timely information is produced in order to stay up 

to date and not when you check something changes after you have 

checked and then all of a sudden they say it is your responsibility. 

That is what, you know, those are the types of issues that make 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

14 

the program tough and probably allows people to believe that they, 

you know, it is not worth them participating in. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. DuFour? 

Mr. DUFOUR. I better turn that on. 

It is incumbent upon the small business to stay on top of regulation. It would be an added benefit if it was more proactively coming 

from the SBA, yes. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. We are going to make it more proactive. But, 

yeah. 

Mr. DUFOUR. Brilliant. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. So my question is does the legislative requirement that SBA refresh the HUBZone map every 5 years and/or any 

time there is a base closure and qualified disaster help fix this notification problem? 

Chairman CHABOT. The gentlelady’s time is expired, but you 

can answer the question, whoever—— 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Schuerger. 

Chairman CHABOT. Mr. Schuerger? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. Yes, absolutely. 

Ms. VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. Thank you. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. The gentlelady’s 

time is expired. 

The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Luetkemeyer, who is vice 

chairman of this Committee, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would 

be remiss if I would not mention my predecessor of my being here 

in Congress is here this morning, and I want to mention Kenny 

Hulshof is in the audience. And he left some really big shoes to fill, 

and the only way I am coming close is I do have big feet. So, welcome, Kenny. 

Thank you all for being here this morning. It is an interesting 

conversation we are having on the HUBZones here. And you know, 

my first question, obviously, we have got 19,000 census tracks, 828 

counties, 108 base closures, 593 qualified Indian lands covered by 

HUBZones, and only 6,000 certified small businesses. Why are we 

having difficulty getting businesses in the program I guess is the 

first question? 

Ms. BAILEY. Can I take part of that? 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Yeah, fire away. 

Ms. BAILEY. One of the major problems is the lack of HUBZone 

set-asides. When we have the contracting vehicles there, it is going 

to encourage more firms to participate in the program. So, you 

know, over the years, we are not making anywhere near. We are 

actually going down in meeting the 3 percent goal. And you find 

that when we start to meet that 3 percent goal, more and more 

firms will enter the program. They do not see that this investment 

in this program is going to pay off if there is no set-aside programs. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. So do you see the program actually 

enticing businesses into the zone or are you just picking up businesses that are already in the zone itself? 

Ms. BAILEY. No, I think it is enticing businesses into the zones. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Do you have some numbers on that? 

Ms. BAILEY. No, I do not have anything in particular, but we 

can use us for an example. The reason that we are in Garrett 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

15 

County is because it was a HUBZone. We looked. We are actually 

out of Frederick County to begin with. We moved to Allegheny; it 

lost its designation. And when we were looking to move to another 

HUBZone, that was one of the major factors we were looking at. 

And Garrett County is why we moved to Garrett County. Go ahead. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Because in my mind what would look like 

a pretty small number of businesses that are actually qualified for 

HUBZone, is there enough competition for contracts set away so 

that we actually have a good competitive bid from somebody in that 

zone? Or is it single source? And maybe we are overpaying for services. 

Ms. BAILEY. Well, at one point there were over 13,000 

HUBZone firms until the census came and a lot of them were removed from the program because of the changes in the census data. 

And we believe that at that point in time there was definitely two 

or more in every NAICS code. Right now we have roughly 6,000 

firms, which is pretty equivalent to some of the other set-aside programs as well. So, you know, I think that by encouraging more contracting, HUBZone contracting, we can encourage more firms to get 

in there. Yes. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. Let us take that a step farther. So 

if you wind up with more businesses coming into the HUBZone, is 

that going to hurt existing businesses that are HUBZone with more 

competition? 

Ms. BAILEY. Well, competition is good. So, it will encourage 

more HUBZones to be competing in different areas, more diverse 

markets. We believe that we can open up the number of market 

areas that the HUBZones are participating in. One of the fallacies 

right now is that still a lot of people believe it is more in construction and janitorial and those types of things, but our largest business sector that is growing is the IT services, so. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Well, the reason for my first question with 

regard to the lack of competition, if they are not—if our contracts 

are vectored with those folks, there is not enough competition, then 

competition will drive those prices down and be impactful. 

Ms. BAILEY. Well, you know, I still think that even with the 

6,000 firms and the number of HUBZone set-asides that we have, 

we still have a considerable amount of competition throughout the 

HUBZone Program at this point. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Very good. 

In the bill, it extends the time period for which a qualified disaster area is considered as such and proposes to modify the definition of base closure area by aligning it with the definitions of qualified census track and qualified metropolitan area. Are there other 

areas that we could designate similar to a disaster area or base closure area that we could add to this list that you are aware of? I 

guess my question is, are we complete with the way we are designating this? Are there other problem areas that we could see that 

could help by expanding the definition of a HUBZone that would 

be helpful? 

Ms. BAILEY. At this point, I do not have any answer to that at 

this point. I have not thought about that. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Rest of the panel got any ideas? Questions? Are we spot on with what we are doing here? 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

16 

Mr. DUFOUR. I think you are spot on. I think that 3294 really 

clarifies the BRAC, it clarifies the disaster location, and it 

incentivizes companies to go into those locations. I think you nailed 

it. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay, perfect. My time is expired. Thank 

you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CHABOT. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Evans, who is the ranking member of the Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Tax, and 

Capital Access, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. Bailey, how important is the certainty that H.R. 3294 attempts to legislate to the types of businesses which your council is 

composed of? 

Ms. BAILEY. As far as from the certainty standpoint, it is from 

the investment. These HUBZone firms are going in. They are investing in buildings that need renovation. They are going in and 

investing their financial assets in hiring and training HUBZone 

employees. One of the additional costs when you hire, a lot of the 

HUBZone employees do not have the required skillsets. So this encourages these firms to go in and develop training programs, to 

hire individuals in those areas, and provide them with the skillsets. 

But you are investing in long-term leases. You are helping the economic development of those areas by renovating buildings. We actually bought a building from the county and renovated that building. And so those investments, you need that amount of time in 

order to start to recover that and to be able to get your business 

off the ground. 

Mr. EVANS. Can you give an example of the types of businesses? 

Ms. BAILEY. We are actually a professional services business, IT 

businesses. We went into Garrett County where right now there 

was only one other HUBZone firm at the time we went in there. 

We now have 11 businesses. There are several different, a variety. 

We have some IT businesses. We have professional services businesses. Higher skill level businesses are coming into the area as a 

result of the HUBZone Program. 

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Mele ́ndez, I read your testimony and share your 

frustration at the challenges in getting Federal contracts. I have no 

question, but simply applaud your patience and your resolve in 

making it here under extremely trying circumstances. So just talk 

a little bit about, this is your chance to, if you had to say something to us, specifically ways that we can really assist you. 

Mr. MELE ́ NDEZ. Yes, for us it has been a long journey, like I 

said in the testimony. It has been 4 years, almost 4 years in the 

making of us trying continuously, coming here to D.C., establishing 

contacts. Like I said in my testimony, I think a third of the contracts are competed here in the D.C. area, and I will tell you that 

probably 85 or 90 percent of them have to start or at least at some 

point start here. So it does take considerable time and investment 

for companies like ours to come here and establish those contacts. 

Make sure that all private experience is taken into consideration 

when a contracting officer is gambling with an opportunity with us. 

Like I said in my statement, we can have 10 years of private expeSBREP-219A with DISTILLER

17 

rience, but for the contracting officer I have nothing. So getting 

that message out is important. 

There are companies like ours that are HUBZone companies that 

have serious and good experience and letting them know that it is 

really not a gamble to give them their first chance. It is just kind 

of the wedge into starting your Federal contracting process. I think 

that help will be greatly appreciate. 

Mr. EVANS. I thank you, too, for all you have tried to do. 

Mr. MELE ́ NDEZ. Thank you. 

Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CHABOT. The gentleman yields back. Thank you. 

The gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Comer, is recognized for 5 

minutes. 

Mr. COMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And let me begin by 

saying the HUBZone Program is very important to small business 

and economic development in my congressional district in Kentucky. I have 13 of my 35 counties, as you mentioned. One of the 

challenges that we have in rural America is trying to sustain our 

best and brightest people in those areas, and I think this is part 

of the solution. HUBZones, economic freedom zones. We have to 

incentivize businesses to want to stay or want to relocate into the 

rural areas. 

So my first question is to Ms. Bailey. In your testimony, you described the impact that H.R. 3294 might have on rural small businesses. From the perspective of the HUBZone Council, can you tell 

us how H.R. 3294 might benefit those firms that are located in 

urban areas? 

Ms. BAILEY. Definitely. The one major impact for those in urban 

areas is going to be the freezing of the maps. That will enable them 

in those areas to be able to have more certainty, because the urban 

areas, the numbers probably change quicker. You know, the map 

probably changes, you know, quicker than the rural areas do. But 

it is a census area consideration and I think that by freezing that 

for 5 years will give a lot more certainty to those firms as well and 

be able to encourage more firms to move into those areas as well. 

Mr. COMER. One of the complaints I would hear when I was a 

member of the Kentucky General Assembly from the legislators 

representing the urban areas is that, you know, they are subsidizing the rural areas with the fact that the rural areas do not 

have an adequate tax base, and I think that it is important to note 

that this can help urban areas in many ways and that being one 

way. So I appreciate that. 

I also have to highlight a HUBZone contractor in my district, 

Geo Consultants in Kevil, Kentucky, which is in Ballard County. 

They specialize in environmental and disaster cleanups. They are 

going to be very busy in the coming weeks and months to take care 

of trying to fix those areas in the aftermath of the hurricanes, but 

this is a program I strongly support. 

I appreciate you all’s testimony here today and we look forward 

to working with you in the future. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. The gentleman 

yields back. 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

18 

The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Norman, is recognized 

for 5 minutes. 

Mr. NORMAN. Thank you so much. Thank you all for taking 

your time to come testify. 

I guess this is for any of you. I am a developer. I have been in 

private business for a lot longer than I have been in politics; fraud 

and abuse, inflated contracts. Mr. Luetkemeyer mentioned competitive bids. Does this bill have safeguards that prevent fraud and 

abuse and the system from being abused, in your opinion? 

Ms. BAILEY. Well, I think that the inclusion of putting in some 

performance metrics and a little bit more information will provide 

that assurance against fraud and abuse, also. And not only that, 

from the HUBZone Council perspective, we do a lot of our own policing as well to make sure through the education and the training 

and the constant reassurance that we have with even our members 

and outside, that we help police in those areas to ensure that the 

fraud and abuse does not come into this program. So I think that 

by including more stringent performance metrics and information 

reporting, I think that we can control that throughout the industry. 

Mr. NORMAN. Give me an example of a metric that you think 

would have teeth. 

Ms. BAILEY. I think that one metric that might have teeth is 

a reporting of, let us just say, as new contract awards come up, 

stronger program exams from the SBA’s perspective to ensure that 

they are checking those who are winning these contracts. The recertification program, restrengthening the recertification of the 

SBA to ensure that firms are compliant and continuing to be compliant. And I think that those are the major ways to help to ensure 

that we are continuing to reduce the fraud, waste, and abuse in the 

program. 

Mr. NORMAN. Anybody else? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. Yes. I think one of the key areas this bill, you 

know, focuses on, you know, the payroll snapshot for the business, 

because at any point in time the HUBZone or the SBA can come 

in and request your existing payroll, which then, obviously, if you 

are not following or even close to the guidelines of the HUBZone 

Program then you would be violating the program and kicked out. 

So I think strengthening that ability will definitely help alleviate 

some of the fraud and abuse you talk about. 

Mr. NORMAN. Has that happened, the checks and balances that 

you talk about? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. I think that is part of what the bill is beginning to empower the SBA to do now. 

Mr. NORMAN. Okay. 

Mr. SCHUERGER. Is to allow them to begin to do that more aggressively, whereas before I think there was more lackadaisical 

oversight of that; hence, the opportunity now to strengthen it. 

Mr. DUFOUR. Let me just add that the Federal Acquisition Regulations also has a provision to protest. So when a HUBZone setaside procurement, if an award goes to a HUBZone firm and another HUBZone firm says I do not think they are a HUBZone, 

there is a process that is followed. It escalates to the SBA and it 

is incumbent upon the SBA to basically do a complete examination. 

They are going to ask you if the business is still in a HUBZone and 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

19 

they will verify it. They are going to want to see that you have 35 

percent of your employees living in a HUBZone, and they will 

verify it. And then finally, they are going to want to know that the 

ownership is 51 percent U.S. citizen, and they verify that. 

I have been through that protest process. It works. I have also 

been on the opposite where I have protested and the award was retracted from a firm that was actually not a HUBZone. So I think 

there are good checks and balances, not just in this bill, but in the 

FAR. 

Mr. MELE ́ NDEZ. I would add that reporting that includes comparative analysis between the other SBA programs and the whole 

Federal contracting as a whole will actually help to provide those 

checks and balances and give a spotlight to those possible fraud 

and abuse cases particularly. 

Mr. NORMAN. Well, you all are in the trenches and as we move 

forward, as you see things that can be added, whether it gets 

amendments in this bill or not, it would be great to let your 

thoughts be known in proving this. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. 

Ms. Adams, would you want to go now or do you want to—we 

will come back to you after one or—I do not know. Your feet are 

on the ground. Are you good? 

Ms. ADAMS. They are good. 

Chairman CHABOT. Okay. The gentlelady from North Carolina, 

Ms. Adams, who is the ranking member of the Subcommittee on 

Investigations, Oversight, and Regulation, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Ms. ADAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had a major overlap 

this morning. And I want to thank all of the witnesses for being 

here today and taking the time to share. Thank you for your testimony. 

Mr.—is that Schuerger? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. Yes. 

Ms. ADAMS. Okay. All right. In your testimony you stated that 

the HUBZone certification process was at times challenging due to 

long wait periods, analysis, analyst changes, and an understaffed 

HUBZone office. Through your recertification experience, have you 

found these problems to be rectified? And if you have not, how can 

we ensure that the process is efficient and impervious to fraud? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. Thank you for the question. I believe my circumstance was unique in being a law firm because what took place 

was in being a law firm, there are lawyers in my law firm that are 

agents for other companies. So what happened during my certification process is that there was an assumption that we had 20 

companies under our ownership when that was not the case, but 

as a law firm you exist as an agent for other entities. So clarifying 

that confusion with the HUBZone analyst, what happened was we 

got handed off to another HUBZone analyst who then re-explained. 

So the lack of consistency with the analyst that you have and then 

the lack of an ability to request the same analyst when you resubmit the information, when it goes to a new analyst, it is a whole, 

you know, the process starts all over again. 

SBREP-219A with DISTILLER

20 

So in my specific example, I think it has been rectified from 

when I first applied back, you know, and then got certified in 2016 

to where it is now is, you know, through the council we have been 

able to raise some of those issues with the current HUBZone director. And I think Ms. Pardo has taken a look and I think hence the 

strengthening of here in this current House bill that is being presented I think will help that. 

Ms. ADAMS. Okay. 

Mr. Mele ́ndez, in your experience, do small businesses incur 

some additional costs when they are located in and employee workers who reside in economically distressed areas such as costs to recruit and train workers? 

Mr. MELE ́ NDEZ. I think there are costs associated to that. I 

think there would be other costs if you were in a highly populated 

or highly competitive urban area, so I think those actually in the 

long run will balance themselves out. There are definitely a lot of 

different challenges for being in an underdeveloped and rural area, 

like you clearly explained. Hiring takes a lot more time, so actually, the grace period and being able to at least add a little bit 

more time to that would be greatly beneficial to the bill, I think. 

But apart from that, and the training, I think, like I say, it will 

balance. It does balance a little bit out. 

Ms. ADAMS. Okay. Thank you. 

SBA is still in the process of streamlining certifications through 

certifysba.gov and perfecting this process. How can Congress ensure that the HUBZone process changes for the better once it is incorporated into this new website? That is a question for anyone 

who would like to answer it. 

Ms. BAILEY. Well, I think one of the major things is integrating 

the application process, the maps, and the recertification process 

all into this certify.gov, and to be able to incorporate the requirement for performance metrics. On behalf of the HUBZone, I can 

tell you that most of the HUBZone firms would be happy to provide 

data if there was an easy way to do that. And if they could incorporate that within the system where we could go in and provide 

periodic information, this would be a greatly desirable improvement in the overall HUBZone Program. 

Ms. ADAMS. Okay. Does anyone else want to quick answer? 

Okay, all right. Thank you very much. 

And Mr. Chair, I will yield back. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. The gentlelady 

yields back. 

The gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Fitzpatrick, is recognized 

for 5 minutes. 

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 

giving us your time today. 

I think it is safe to say that in a Nation with 20.1 trillion in debt 

that growing our economy is far and away the most significant 

challenge facing this Congress and this country. I have no doubt 

that programs like this help in that regard, infusing cash into economically distressed areas. 

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ipal incentives. In your experience, in the implementation of these 

programs, how seamless is the integration in these various programs to hitting the target, the intended target of making sure 

that we maximize employment opportunities for people in these 

areas? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. It is not really a seamless process. You know, 

the municipality and the county and the State each have their own 

organizations and entities by which they answer up to, and then 

to try to integrate that into the HUBZone Program. One of the 

things that we have had success with has been working, like in 

Clinton County with the Wilmington Port Authority with the airport. They have been supportive locally in giving us incentives on 

top of the HUBZone status in order to employ there in that economic distressed area. So that is an example of what you talked 

about, sort of a seamless working relationship between the local entities, not exactly hand-in-hand, but all of those enticements help 

in creating the jobs in an economically distressed area. 

Mr. FITZPATRICK. So when you say it is not seamless, are we 

essentially dealing with a patchwork of programs that are affecting 

different types of people, different entities, different zones in the 

community? 

Mr. SCHUERGER. I would say yes. Through my experience, that 

would be correct. 

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Is there anything in this legislation on a 

Federal level we can do to increase that integration? Because I 

would think that if we designate a certain area, that that is an 

area in need, then why not pull together all the resources? Because 

these are all taxpayer dollars, just on different levels, hitting the 

intended target in unison to expand economic growth. 

Ms. BAILEY. I think that is a great idea. And not only that is 

that also what we need to be doing is through the education and 

the encouragement of these areas that this is one of the toolkits for 

them to use for their economic development and the workforce 

training. Now, we do see that in a lot of the rural areas, and SBA 

has been working on trying to put a toolkit together that they took 

around on their HUBZone Destination Tours to each one of these 

areas. So I think that we see that happening. We see that those 

areas that are in need, they are trying to work together, and it is 

a consolidated team as part of their economic development. But it 

is an important thing through the HUBZone, through the 

HUBZone Program, to encourage that you are working with economic development groups. You are working with the educational 

groups. You are working with your workforce development groups 

to make this program successful. 

Mr. FITZPATRICK. So is that an amendment you think would 

be a good idea for this statute? 

Ms. BAILEY. Well, I think it would be a great idea if we could 

figure out a way to do that. Yes. 

Mr. FITZPATRICK. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. 

And I will now recognize myself for just a couple minutes to kind 

of wrap up here. 

Two questions. First, for you, Mr. Mele ́ndez, since I did not get 

around to you the first time. Obviously, Puerto Rico and, you know, 

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some of our Southern States, Florida in particular, Georgia to some 

extent, Louisiana, and especially Texas, have been hit with major 

hurricanes of late. Could you tell us as a practical matter, my understanding is Puerto Rico, most of it, although not all of it, I think 

is a HUBZone, what positive or practical impact of being a 

HUBZone should it have in the rebuilding effort down in Puerto 

Rico, for example? 

Mr. MELE ́ NDEZ. I think it is a great opportunity. I think a lot 

of the relief work, a lot of the reconstruction of these areas, I think 

HUBZone companies as a whole should be used and should be 

given priority for this. It will definitely help the underlying communities because I believe a lot, at least in the case of Puerto Rico and 

the Virgin Islands, it will not only impact the work on the destruction that happened, but those were already economically depressed 

areas. So helping, having companies from the same HUBZone 

areas being able to do the work, to reinvigorate and to reconstruct 

the destructed area I think will have a great impact. So if there 

is some way that the reconstruction contracts can be given, some 

kind of HUBZone, or at least priority to HUBZone companies, it 

will, again, it will definitely help. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

And my final question, Ms. Bailey, is kind of a follow-up to Mr. 

Norman’s question. He was, and I think appropriately so, talking 

about making sure that we have as little as possible fraud and 

abuse in the program where the government, let us face it, we are 

never going to eliminate this kind of stuff as much as we want to 

try, but we need to reduce it as much as possible and hopefully 

eliminate it. And it is my understanding that in this legislation 

and in the original legislation there are some safeguards in that, 

some additional things like reporting requirements and things that 

the SBA should be able to oversee. 

So on the one hand, we want to do those things. On the other 

hand, the SBA sort of has a reputation of being a very paperworkintensive organization that can make it difficult for people to take 

advantage of the loan programs that are available out there. So 

there needs to be a balance between making sure that we are 

eliminating that fraud and abuse, while at the same time we are 

not just hitting people over the head with paperwork all the time. 

So would you want to maybe just touch on that balance and let 

me know what you think about what I just said? 

Ms. BAILEY. I think the balance is definitely required. But I 

think that by looking at this and automating a lot of these types 

of requirements where it does not take a considerable amount of 

time for us to go in as we are doing our recertification, to fill in 

key data points and performance metric information, and that SBA 

then begins accumulating and using that information and targeting 

high-risk types of areas so that if you have contractors and you are 

measuring awards that are coming out and you evaluate those contractors as these awards are happening, then you can start mitigating any fraud, waste, and abuse at the point in time that this 

is actually occurring. So by having us report, you know, maybe as 

part of the system the performance metrics here as if you are proposing on HUBZone set-asides or you are awarded a HUBZone setaside, you know, requirement to report that automatically. I mean, 

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you know, electronically, not by paper and all of that, in a mechanism where they can measure the risk and assessment of these 

awards. 

Chairman CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

And in closing, I would just note that I think our panel here has 

been very helpful in all the Committee’s members understanding 

the HUBZone Program better, and realizing that it can be an effective program in combating poverty and increasing economic independence and job creation, although we will continue to monitor it 

and try to make improvements where we can in a bipartisan manner. And I want to again thank Ms. Vela ́zquez for her hard work 

and staffs on both sides for this. 

I would ask unanimous consent that members have 5 legislative 

days to submit statements and supporting materials for the record. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

And if there is no further business to come before the Committee, 

we are adjourned. Thank you very much. 

[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

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Written Testimony of 

Robert A. Schuerger, II 

Prinicipal and Attorney at Law 

Law Offices of Robert A. Schuerger Co., LPA 

Columbus, OH 

Before the 

House Committee on Small Business 

‘‘Serving Small Businesses: Examining the Effectiveness of 

HUBZone Reforms’’ 

September 13, 2017 

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Good morning Chairman Chabot, Ranking Member Velazquez, 

and Members of the Committee. My name is Robert Schuerger and 

I am the founder and lead attorney for the Law Offices of Robert 

A. Schuerger Co., LPA. Founded in 2008, we have been a 

HUBZone-certified law firm since August 2016. I am also a member of the HUBZone Council. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify today. Chair Chabot, it gives me great pride to 

know that the Committee is led by a fellow Buckeye. 

Schuerger Law’s principal office is based in a HUBZone area that 

is in urban downtown Columbus, Ohio. We also maintain an office 

and 11 employees, in Wilmington, in rural Clinton County, Ohio. 

Since our founding in 2008, Schuerger Law has grown to 52 employees, growth we attribute directly to our success in the 

HUBZone program. Our clients include public sector entities such 

as local governments, hospitals and universities. As a result of our 

HUBZone certification, we have hired 23 employees and are a subcontractor for the Department of Education. We were recently 

awarded a prime contract with the Department of Justice. 

We learned about the HUBZone program when we were looking 

at federal contract opportunities. We had just purchased a building 

in 2014 in downtown Columbus that was in the HUBZone area. We 

then went through the certification process which at times was 

challenging due to long wait periods, analysts changing on the file 

and an understaffed HUBZone office. Director Pardo was instrumental in rectifying those delays and a year later we were 

HUBZone certified and eager to begin pursuing the new opportunities the certification afforded the business. 

Since certification we have grown from a firm of 29 employees to 

52 employees. This job increase is directly attributable to our 

HUBZone status as it allowed us to become a federal subcontractor 

to the Department of Education and a prime contractor to the Department of Justice. The Clinton County office was uniquely qualified to be our satellite office as DHL had just moved out of the Regional Airport leaving thousands without jobs. We have stepped in 

and taken over a space in the airport with the target to grow the 

business through our federal procurement to at least 40 jobs. 

I am please the Committee has undertaken the task of changing 

a program badly in need of change. In my view, H.R. 3294, ‘‘The 

HUBZone Uniformity and Business Stability Act of 2017’’ provides 

much needed stability to companies like mine. Clinton County, 

home of Washington, will lose its HUBZone designation in 2018. I 

certainly favor the approach in H.R. 3294 which freezes the current 

HUBZone eligibility maps until 2020. It would provide us with the 

transition time our firm needs while we decide how to keep our valued employees and finding a new office. Transitioning from the annual ACS to a 5-year process, will enable our firm to find that location and make the capital investments necessary to continue bringing economic development to the hard-working people of Ohio. 

The HUBZone online tool, that requires the SBA to ‘‘clearly and 

conspicuously provide access to the data used by the Administrator 

to determine whether or not an area is a qualified area in the year 

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in which the online tool was prepared’’ is also a significant requirement. 

It will assist HUBZone firms that maintain offices in multiple locations, like Schuerger Law. This tool, updated every 5 years, 

would ensure HUBZone firms have the latest information on 

HUBZone eligible areas. This bill also ensures that the SBA Administrator removes redesignated areas that are no longer qualified, which has been a problem in the past with many companies 

who have undergone the extensive certification process only to find 

the HUBZone qualified area lost its designation. 

Another provision of the bill, including Subsection 31(d)(6) provides a firm who loses certification, 30 days to submit documentation to the SBA to reestablish eligibility. Since the certification 

process is time consuming, this is a common-sense approach to the 

process. We believe it will incentivize HUBZone participation. 

Firms that may be hesitant to become HUBZone-certified have 

clear recourse should they feel that their certification was unjustly 

revoked. 

I would note that the federal government has never met its goal 

of contracting 3% of its contracts to HUBZone companies. I would 

urge the Committee to keep up its oversight of federal agencies and 

encourage them to contract with HUBZone firms. It is certainly important to Clinton County, Ohio and many other areas in this country. Adoption of this legislation is critical to the success of the program and time is of the essence. We really need action this year 

to ensure that firms like mine can continue work in the program. 

In closing, I want to emphasize that the HUBZone program is an 

important economic development program. Incentivizing companies 

to locate in depressed areas is a good policy approach. However, 

change must be made to the program, such as those in H.R. 3294. 

Thank you for the attention you have brought to this critical 

issue, and for all of your work supporting our nation’s small businesses and those in Ohio. I look forward to answering any questions. 

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Chairman Chabot, Ranking Member Velazquez and members of 

the United States House of Representatives Committee on Small 

Business: 

My name is Dennis DuFour and I am the President of The Data 

Entry Company (TDEC). I appreciate the opportunity to testify at 

today’s hearing titled ‘‘Serving Small Businesses: Examining the 

Effectiveness of HUBZone Reforms.’’ 

I want to discuss three things with you today. First, I am going 

to give you a brief history of our business and what we do. Then 

I am going to discuss how we leveraged the valuable HUBZone certification to create jobs in underserved parts of the U.S. And, finally, I am going to explain why the HUBZone program reform 

must happen now and in particular the need for area stability. This 

is an urgent matter. 

About TDEC: TDEC was started in 1958 by Ray DuFour, my 

grandfather, who was an insurance agent. His first customer was 

the National Active and Retired Federal Employee Association 

(NARFE) who had purchased a group hospitalization policy and 

Ray needed a way to process each member’s insurance application. 

So he started TDEC to receive and open mail, enter applicant data 

onto keypunch cards and prepare checks for bank deposit. There 

weren’t computers in the late ’50s and ’60s like we see today. Data 

was entered on a keypunch card and the cards where fed into machines to create data tapes. 

A couple of years later my father, Mo DuFour, went to work for 

the company and rapidly expanded our customer base. He added 

customers like the National Geographic Society, Citibank Credit 

Cards and the Republican National Committee (RNC) to name a 

few. I vaguely remember in the early ‘70s my father racing back 

from our summer vacation because someone broke into the Democratic National Committee Headquarters at the Watergate Hotel 

and the FBI wanted to see the data we had collected for the RNC. 

This investigation led to the first resignation of a sitting United 

States President. 

Today, in our 59th business year, my brother John and I lead 

TDEC and we focus on serving Federal, State and commercial customers with their labor intensive functions including, as our name 

states, data entry services. We have 300 employees that provide 

services at our location in Maryland, Ohio and Virginia as well as 

at government offices from Alaska to Florida and in 21 others 

states in between. My brother and I don’t take lightly the fact that 

we operate this business. Statistically only 12% of businesses survive into the 3rd generation. 

Leveraging the HUBZone Program: In March of 2002, I applied to the Small Business Administration (SBA) for HUBZone 

certification for TDEC. The program analyst at the SBA assigned 

to our application was Mariana Pardo, who I note is now the Director of the HUBZone Program. After a thorough examination of our 

application including our ownership, our business size and the percentage of then 51 employees we have that live in HUBZones—we 

were welcomed into the program in November 2002. 

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We immediately began to leverage this valuable certification by 

marketing our new status to the Federal Government and to large 

prime contractors. That led to winning two sub-contracts to large 

prime contractors and to our first HUBZone set-aside prime contract with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in 

2007. On that contract we provided Administrative Support Services to the Northwest and Alaska Fisheries Science Centers in the 

State of Washington and the State of Alaska. We were re-awarded 

a competitive contract to provide similar services to NOAA in 2012 

and continue to serve this important customer today. 

For 15 years we have continuously maintained our HUBZone certification through scheduled and un-scheduled program examinations, re-certifications and HUBZone protests. We are proud to report that 47% of our now 300 employees live in HUBZones—well 

above the 35% program requirement. We achieve this high percentage of HUBZone employees because we continually seek to attract, 

retain and train well qualified employees in under-served areas 

and it is working! 

Urgent HUBZone Re-designation Reform: In January 2018, 

just 4 months from now, Garrett County, Maryland, where TDEC’s 

principle office is, will no longer be a HUBZone. There are another 

11 businesses in Garrett County that are faced with this same redesignation problem. In late 2016, I wondered if this was isolated 

to Garrett County so my team and I researched which other counties in the United States had a similar imminent issue. We found 

that there are 15 other non-metropolitan counties that will be redesignated in January 2018 and then 71 more similar counties in 

July 2018. This is a total of 86 counties in 2018 spanning 25 

States. 

The more we dug into the data we found it gets more-dire. Our 

research found that 4,700 jobs are at risk at 245 companies in 

these under-served economically disadvantaged communities. 

Knowing that TDEC was not alone in this timely matter, I began 

a campaign to reach out to fellow HUBZone firms to solicit their 

support and feedback. This campaign called ‘‘Save Our HUBZone’’ 

reaches over 4,000 HUBZone firms across the United States. And 

this group is not shy to raise their voices. Here are a few of the 

hundreds of responses I received to a simple question: ‘‘How will 

re-designation affect your business?’’ 

This is a critical issue to our remaining in this town and county 

in Pennsylvania. Without it, we will be forced to lay people off locally and relocate to another town and probably another state to 

continue to do business. 

Lake County, California is a poor rural northern California 

County with many small businesses, many whom are HUBZone 

businesses. This gives our small company and other small businesses an opportunity to obtain Federal work. 

HUBZone communities need the support of HUBZone companies. 

No one better understands the community than those who are there 

in it. Take away the lifeline of the community and the community 

itself will wither. Maintaining HUBZone designation maintains life 

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within the community. Save a community by keeping HUBZone designation as is. - Detroit, Michigan 

Our small business is a HUBZone qualified small business and 

this status helps us get federal projects as a small business. Without 

this status we will not qualify as a small business set-aside anymore and therefore will lose out on some of the contracts geared for 

small businesses. This will put us back in the running with all the 

large competition and will directly impact our company and employees. Matanuska-Susitna Borough/Alaska 

I support H.R. 3294 because the reforms proposed will continue 

to provide needed opportunity in economically-struggling areas of 

our country. I am looking to hire students from Atlanta Tech College. These students come from a community of public assistance 

and various other ailments because of their socio-economical situations. We are providing jobs, because of the HUBZone certification. 

It’s an honor and a privileged and I support H.R. 3294!! - Atlanta, 

Georgia 

HUBZone Small Businesses are vital to the need of creating jobs 

and employment opportunities for the Citizens who reside in the 

HUBZone areas. Most are not high skilled individuals but are hard 

working, dedicated and apt to learning new skills. Loss of 

HUBZone status can totally shut the doors of the HUBZone Small 

Business and put thousand/millions of people out of work. - Hamilton County, Ohio 

So my message to you echoes what we have heard from my fellow HUBZone firms. We need you to give HUBZone firms stability 

by extending the re-designation period as you have in HR 3294. 

This bill, which was introduced by both the Ranking Member and 

the Chairman, if enacted now, will freeze the HUBZone map until 

2020 and then only be changed every 5 years. This will give communities and their businesses time to build resources to compete 

in a post HUBZone environment. Remember it took us 5 years of 

marketing our services in order to get a prime contract. 

While I am excited and encouraged by all the enhancements to 

the HUBZone Program made in HR 3294 I am most interested in 

the urgent need to save HUBZone communities by freezing the 

HUBZone map until 2020. 

Just like you face tough decisions in your job so do I. I need to 

decide in the next month whether to lose our HUBZone status and 

stay in our current location or to move our business to another 

HUBZone. This decision has been weighing on me for some time 

because we have loyal long term employees that will be affected. 

If we move, our people may lose their jobs and there really aren’t 

any other viable jobs for them in Garrett County. Coupled with 

that is the fact that we have been in business in Garrett at the 

very same location for over 50 years. It is difficult and costly to 

move a business and is a distraction to the businesses purpose. We 

also have a ton of history in our Oakland, MD office. I remember 

as a little boy trying to use the key punch card machines to punch 

holes in keypunch cards. Let’s just say that I was terrible at it. 

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So I ask you to act immediately on HR 3294 and give HUBZone 

communities certainty. I speak for the thousands of HUBZone 

workers whose jobs are at stake. There is no more important economic development issue impacting rural communities in America! 

I am available to answer any questions you have and again, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today. 

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