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S. HRG. 114–747 

U.S. POLICY IN LIBYA 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JUNE 15, 2016 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Relations 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: 

http://www.govinfo.gov 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS

BOB CORKER, Tennessee, Chairman

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

MARCO RUBIO, Florida 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

CORY GARDNER, Colorado 

DAVID PERDUE, Georgia 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

BARBARA BOXER, California 

ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey 

JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire 

CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware 

TOM UDALL, New Mexico 

CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut 

TIM KAINE, Virginia 

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts 

TODD WOMACK, Staff Director

JESSICA LEWIS, Democratic Staff Director

ROB STRAYER, Majority Chief Counsel

MARGARET TAYLOR, Minority Chief Counsel

JOHN DUTTON, Chief Clerk

(II)


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Corker, Hon. Bob, U.S. Senator From Tennessee ................................................. 1 

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., U.S. Senator From Maryland ................................... 2 

Winer, Jonathan, Special Envoy for Libya, Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs, 

U.S. Department of State, Washington, DC ...................................................... 4 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 5 

Responses to questions for the record submitted to Special Envoy Jonathan Winer by Senator Boxer ...................................................................... 24 

(III)


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER

FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
(1) 

U.S. POLICY IN LIBYA 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 2016 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m. in Room 

SD–419, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bob Corker, chairman of the committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Corker [presiding], Risch, Johnson, Flake, 

Gardner, Perdue, Barrasso, Cardin, Menendez, Udall, and Markey. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BOB CORKER, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE 

The CHAIRMAN. The Foreign Relations Committee will come to 

order. 

We welcome everyone. Thank you for being here. I want to thank 

our witness for testifying today. 

Five years after the U.S. decision to intervene in Libya, which I 

think most of us, including our witness, would agree was a textbook case in what not to do in foreign policy, if you look at where 

we are today, I am still wondering what our Libya policy is. I read 

through the briefings. I know Senator Cardin and others did the 

same, and we spend most of our time on foreign policy issues, obviously. And I have to tell you just looking at the committee memo 

that was put in place by CRS, the countervailing forces on the 

ground in Libya are really many, and a very tough, complex situation has developed there. 

I think our hearing today is an attempt to understand what is 

an achievable outcome in Libya that is in line with U.S. interests 

and at what cost. And obviously, if we can cause people to come 

together through the efforts that are underway at present, we really would just be getting back to where we were in 2013. So there 

has been a lot of time and loss, a lot of lives lost, a lot of backward 

momentum. 

As different factions continue to compete across Libya, as ISIS 

continues to use the chaos to establish an operating base outside 

Syria, it appears that we are again contemplating providing arms 

and training to some type of Libyan national security force. I hope 

Mr. Winer can explain to us what lessons the administration has 

learned from the failure of the last time we tried to develop Libyan 

security forces and what political progress needs to occur in order 

for us to try again. 

To determine the way forward, we need an accurate assessment 

of Tripoli’s ability to govern and what we are doing to help them 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
2 

and what can bring the rival administration in Tobruk on board 

with the new government. 

We have sanctioned Libyan individuals who are hindering the 

formation of a unity government in the past, but are we prepared 

to do so in the future? 

For a country with vast oil wealth and thankfully void of widespread sectarian tensions, Libya should become a success story. I 

think we all are disheartened that in many ways the failure of U.S. 

policy following the fall of Qaddafi has hindered Libya’s progress. 

With that, I want to thank our Special Envoy for being here who 

I know has concerns about the future of Libya. We look forward to 

your testimony. We thank you for being here today to help us understand the way forward. 

And with that, I will turn to our distinguished ranking member, 

Senator Ben Cardin. 

STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM MARYLAND 

Senator CARDIN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this 

hearing is particularly important as to how we proceed in Libya. 

And it is complicated. And I thank our witness for being here and 

your service to our country. 

But in order to counter ISIL in Libya, the United States and others have accelerated efforts to strike at the stronghold in Sirte 

while stepping up diplomatic efforts to achieve Libyan unity. On a 

broad level, this is the right approach. Although I am pleased to 

learn that ISIL is now physically on the run, I am distressed that 

they continue to make inroads by inspiring people online to commit 

atrocities, as we have seen in our own country in Orlando. 

But oftentimes in the rush to beat back the latest terrorist 

threats, the expediency of counterterrorism actions far outpaces 

and exceeds our political strategy. And that is a matter of major 

concern. We want to take action, but we need to know that we can 

follow up that action with a workable strategy. 

I fear that if we are not careful, if we do not devote the same 

amount of time and resources to good governance, democracy promotion, and humanitarian support in Libya, then we will simply be 

worsening the country’s divisions and repeating past mistakes that 

we have made elsewhere. If we arm one militia to counter ISIL 

today, even a militia that is acting under the newly internationally 

recognized unity government, who knows who will take up arms 

against us tomorrow? 

Now, let me be clear. If the administration has information about 

a threat against the United States, then we have to act, and we 

have to act and do what is safe for the people of our country. I 

know this administration is trying its best to support the Government of National Accord, or GNA. 3 months ago before this committee, I conveyed the urgency for Libyan national unity. 

Enhancing the GNA’s legitimacy is critical for restoring order to 

the country, bringing prosperity to its people and helping Libya 

take its place among the community of nations. GNA control over 

all of Libya is critical to combating extremist forces, combating 

ISIL, and resolving a migrant crisis that has tragically witnessed 

the drowning deaths of thousands. We have lost thousands of peoVerDate Mar 15 2010 13:24 Mar 14, 2018 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\FULL COMMITTEE\HEARING FILES\2016 HEARINGS -- WORKING\061516 -- LIBYA\28-

FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
3 

ple that have been trafficked through Libya. That is one of the casualties of the instability in that country. 

And yet, while the GNA is doing its best to restore order, the 

country’s political division still festers as spoilers in the eastern 

part of the country continue to block a vote on approval of the 

GNA. As long as Libya remains fractured, terrorist groups like 

ISIL will thrive and the temptation for greater foreign intervention 

will only grow. 

The GNA itself has not requested foreign intervention, and while 

we can provide training to GNA-controlled units, we cannot fight 

this fight for them. I think that is a very important point. 

If and when the U.S. decides to give military equipment and 

training to Libyan forces, it must be with the full cognizance of 

who we are giving support to and the potential for that support 

later to be turned against the United States. We need to have a 

clear strategy in Libya. 

As I have said repeatedly before this committee, I am concerned 

about the open-ended nature of this never-ending war on terror 

that was pursued without congressional authorization, whether it 

is waged in Libya, Yemen, Syria, or Iraq. What begins as a small 

mission to build partners’ capacity could morph into something 

much larger. And all of this is based on an authorization of U.S. 

force predating the upheaval in the Arab world, predating the very 

existence of the Islamic State, and even predating the U.S. invasion in Iraq more than 13 years ago. 

As I said earlier, our Libya policy must strike a balance between 

achieving security and creating good governance. Libya’s core problem is that it is fractured along regional, tribal, and religious lines 

between the old order and the new. We in the international community must continue our best to try and bridge these gaps. Libyans are tired of having multiple competing governments. They deserve better. 

I want to compliment the U.S. leadership in the Security Council 

working with our British colleagues in getting the Security Council’s action to deal with strengthening the arms embargo on Libya. 

And I will be interested in hearing from our witness as to whether 

that will have a major impact on our policy. 

The United States and the international community can and 

should help a country like Libya achieve unity, security, and prosperity. It is my hope that we pursue a balanced policy and not just 

an expedient one. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for those comments. 

And, Mr. Winer, we really appreciate you being here. As people 

know, you are the Special Envoy for Libya, the Bureau of Near 

Eastern Affairs at the U.S. State Department. I think you know 

that you can summarize your comments, if you will, in about 5 

minutes. Without objection, all of your written testimony will be 

entered into the record. Again, thank you for being here, and if you 

would, please proceed. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
4 

STATEMENT OF JONATHAN WINER, SPECIAL ENVOY FOR 

LIBYA, BUREAU OF NEAR EASTERN AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE, WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Mr. WINER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Ranking 

Member Cardin, and distinguished members of the committee, I 

thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss 

U.S. foreign policy on Libya. 

I have just returned from consultations with regional and European partners to discuss our mutual support for the transitional 

Government of National Accord, or GNA, in Libya, whose challenges include ending civil conflict, promoting stability, and addressing the ongoing terrorist threat. 

Our strategic interest in Libya is to support a unified, accountable government that meets the economic and security needs of the 

Libyan people. We also seek a government with whom we can partner on bilateral and regional objectives, including countering the 

terrorism and illegal migration which threaten security and stability across both North Africa and Europe. 

At the center of our policy has been support for the creation of 

the GNA as a unifying bridge to help Libyans move beyond the 

damaging period of political competition, referred to by the chairman and the ranking member, and fragmentation until the country 

adopts a new constitution and a long-term government. 

To do that, we engaged last year with a wide range of Libyans, 

international partners, and with U.N. Special Representative of the 

Secretary-General Martin Kobler and his predecessor Bernardino 

Leon to support the negotiation of the Libyan political agreement, 

which was signed on December 17th, 2015 to bring about the GNA. 

Since entering Tripoli March 30th, 75 days ago roughly, the GNA 

has been able to demonstrate its commitment to inclusiveness and 

national reconciliation and has begun the critical work of rebuilding the Libyan state. Rather than fighting one another, through 

the GNA backed by the political dialogue, Libyans have begun the 

hard work of addressing common challenges. 

Our collective international support for the GNA has already had 

practical impact on the ground. In recent days, we have seen Libyan forces aligned with the GNA engage in sustained fighting 

against Da’esh in the region around Sirte and entering into the 

city. They have made impressive gains against a ruthless enemy. 

The GNA has announced plans to form a presidential guard. It 

has established command centers to combat Da’esh in Sirte. Prime 

Minister Fayez al-Sarraj has stated he will seek international assistance to train and equip GNA forces for this fight, which will not 

be a fight that will be over in merely days or weeks. The Libyans 

will look to the United States for our help in combating Da’esh, and 

we are prepared to provide it. 

The United States counterterrorism policy in Libya is focused on 

degrading Da’esh and other violent extremist groups and reducing 

the threat they pose to our national security and to our interests 

in North Africa and in Europe. In Libya, as elsewhere, the President has made clear his willingness to take action wherever our interests are in danger. 

In the past year, the United States has conducted direct action 

against several terrorist targets in Libya, including a February 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
5 

19th strike that took out a Da’esh training camp in the town of 

Sabratha west of Tripoli. We have also been working to disrupt 

connections between the Da’esh branch in Libya and the core group 

in Iraq and Syria to halt the flow of foreign fighters to Libya, to 

shut off Da’esh finances there, and to counter and defeat its destructive messages. 

As with our other policy priorities, achieving our counterterrorism objectives depends on helping the Libyans rebuild an effective state. While real progress has been made in recent months, 

much work remains to fully implement the Libyan political agreement and to achieve a durable and broad political reconciliation. 

With our partners in Europe and within the region, we continue to 

urge all Libyans to put aside their personal interests in the name 

of uniting Libya under the GNA so Libyans throughout the country, east, west, and south, can rebuild their nation. 

We further urged them to support the integrity of Libya’s core 

economic institutions, in particular the Central Bank of Libya and 

the national oil corporation, whose unity is vital to the country’s recovery and long-term stability. 

U.S. assistance has played an important part in advancing our 

policy, and we look to Congress for continued support as the GNA 

takes shape. The administration has requested $20.5 million for assistance to Libya in fiscal year 2017. These funds would enable us 

to respond to Libya’s emerging needs, help the GNA function as an 

inclusive and rights-respecting national government, and support 

increasing Libya’s security and counterterrorism capabilities. 

The administration is also planning to provide $35 million in fiscal year 2016 and prior year funds to help Libya’s political transition produce an accountable and effective national government. As 

part of this assistance, we intend to commit up to $4 million in 

support of the UNDP-led stabilization facility for Libya. 

Mr. Chairman and members of this committee, as I described at 

the outset today, the United States supports the aspirations of the 

Libyan people for a united, inclusive, and responsive national government capable of overcoming the country’s significant political 

challenges and divisions. We remain deeply engaged with Libya because it is vital for our national security, for that of Libya, for 

North Africa, and for Europe and for the interests we share. 

I look forward to taking your questions. Thank you. 

[Mr. Winer’s prepared statement follows:] 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF JONATHAN M. WINER

Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Cardin, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss U.S. foreign policy on Libya. I have just returned from consultations with regional and European partners to discuss our mutual support for the transitional Government of 

National Accord (GNA) in Libya, whose challenges include ending civil conflict, promoting stability and addressing the ongoing terrorist threat. 

Our strategic interest in Libya is to support a unified, accountable government 

that meets the economic and security needs of the Libyan people. We also seek a 

government with whom we can partner on bilateral and regional objectives, including countering terrorism and illegal migration which threaten security and stability 

across North Africa and in Europe. To address this, we have maintained a policy 

of clear and ongoing support for both the GNA and implementation of the UN-facilitated Libyan Political Agreement which established it. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
6 

Mr. Chairman, Libya’s woes are well known. The 42 years of rule by Muammar 

Qaddafi left a legacy of weakened institutions with limited capacity, which have in 

turn been further damaged by infighting among contenders for political power. In 

2014, Libya’s government split into two groups, each of whom contended they were 

legitimate, one based in the west in Tripoli, the other, recognized by the United 

States, in the East in Tobruk, with a term due to end as of October 21, 2015. It 

was in response to that political crisis that the United States worked with other 

countries to support the UN Mission in Libya, UNSMIL, in the negotiation of the 

Libyan Political Agreement in Skhirat, Morocco which brought about the GNA on 

December 17, 2015, establishing the current Presidency Council as the Executive, 

continuing the House of Representatives as Libya’s legislature, and establishing the 

State Council as a consultative body. 

The Political Agreement was a necessity. During the preceding period of rival governments, according to UN estimates, the violence affected some 2.5 million in Libya 

and displaced more than 430,000. Human traffickers and smugglers have exploited 

the country’s porous borders and weak central government to enable a spectacular 

rise in irregular migration across the Mediterranean into southern Europe. At the 

same time, the Libyan people have suffered from growing economic challenges, as 

Libyan oil has slid from daily production of 1.5 million barrels to an average of 

about 350,000 barrels per day during 2015, and efforts to adjust spending and overall instability led to shortages of medical supplies and rising prices on many necessities. With no monopoly of control of security by a state, terrorist and criminal 

groups established a presence in various areas in Libya. These would be profound 

challenges for any government, and they are especially difficult for the GNA which 

seeks to govern by consensus and which has to build capacity starting from nearscratch. 

The GNA’s Presidency Council moved to Tripoli on March 30 where it was welcomed by the overwhelming majority of Libyans who want an end to the chaos and 

fighting. Since its arrival the GNA has demonstrated its commitment to inclusiveness and national reconciliation and begun the critical work of rebuilding the Libyan state. Libyans are turning their attention away from fighting one another and 

starting to address their common challenges, and today Libyan forces aligned with 

the GNA are engaged in sustained fighting against Da’esh in the city of Sirte and 

making impressive gains against a ruthless enemy. 

The United States has offered its unequivocal support to the GNA. Secretary 

Kerry and leadership from more than 20 countries have underscored our shared 

commitment to the government as it combats Da’esh and other violent extremist 

groups in Libya, most recently at a May 16 ministerial meeting on Libya in Vienna. 

At that meeting Libyan Prime Minister Fayez al-Sarraj articulated the contours of 

Libya’s security needs and announced a series of steps to stabilize the country. The 

GNA has announced plans to form a Presidential Guard and established command 

centers to combat Da’esh in Sirte, and GNA ministers have begun working in a 

caretaker capacity pending formal action by the Libyan parliament. The Libyans 

will look to the United States for our help as it continues to move forward in addressing these challenges, and we are prepared to give it.There is relative stability 

and calm in Tripoli, due in large part to the GNA’s outreach to local leaders, though 

we recognize the GNA must decrease its dependency on the patchwork of militias 

in Tripoli and form a reliable and regular security force. The GNA has been clear 

in its intent to establish inclusive, national forces; it must also continue to build its 

support base and expand stability and calm throughout the country. International 

support for the GNA has consistently been strong; the United States, United Nations, EU, Arab League, and virtually all of the key European and Middle Eastern 

countries have expressed their support for the GNA, and UN Security Council resolution (UNSCR) 2259 made clear that the GNA is the sole legitimate government 

of Libya. 

Nevertheless, much work remains to fully implement the Libya Political Agreement and achieve durable and broad political reconciliation. A small minority of 

hardliners in the House of Representatives has blocked implementation of the Libyan Political Agreement by repeatedly obstructing a vote to formally endorse the 

GNA Cabinet and amend the country’s Constitutional Declaration. The EU sanctioned the House speaker, Agila Issa, for playing ‘‘spoiler’’ to the political process 

on April 1; the United States designated Issa for sanctions on May 13. We continue 

to urge all Libyans to put aside their personal interests in the name of uniting 

Libya under the GNA, so that Libyans in all parts of the country—east, west and 

south—can start rebuilding their nation. 

We similarly support the GNA’s efforts to bring the various armed actors in Libya 

under its consolidated command and control, through an approach that is inclusive 

and integrative. We have been encouraged to see many armed groups welcome and 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
7 

align with the GNA and respond to its call for a joint offensive on Da’esh. Prime 

Minister Sarraj continues to try to broaden the offensive, to include the units led 

by General Khalifa Haftar, and in Vienna made the case strongly that a united Libyan front to combat Da’esh is the only viable option. 

With an estimated 3,000 to 6,500 fighters, Da’esh’s Libya branch is considered the 

most successful of the eight official branches outside of Syria and Iraq and has the 

potential to do great damage to the GNA’s efforts to establish itself and govern the 

country. Da’esh is likely to continue its attempts to further destabilize the region, 

export terror to sub-Saharan Africa, and threaten to attack Europe’s southern flank. 

Da’esh had controlled the central coastal town of Sirte since summer 2015, and is 

believed to have a presence in Tripoli, Benghazi, Ajdabiya, Derna, Sabratha, and 

other major towns and cities. But as we have seen in recent weeks, Da’esh’s presence in Libya is now being challenged by the GNA and a range of Libyan forces, 

throughout the coastal region and including Sirte. Da’esh has lost substantial 

ground everywhere that it has been challenged by Libyans—but we have reports 

that elements of it are going underground, readying themselves for future assaults 

on Libya, its people, and its institutions. The struggle is likely to continue for some 

time to come. 

Da’esh’s current losses in Libya should not be completely surprising. Its branch 

in Libya is different in many ways from the core in Syria and Iraq: among Libya’s 

mostly Sunni population, Da’esh has been unable to exploit a Sunni-Shia divide to 

recruit and win ideological favor. It also lacks the ability to use oil smuggling as 

a major revenue-generating resource as it does in Iraq and Syria. Additionally, Libyans do not welcome foreign actors. Polling shows Libyans overwhelmingly view 

Da’esh as an unwelcome foreign phenomenon. We have now seen Libyans rally in 

opposition to Da’esh in multiple locations, expelling them from the city of Derna, 

for example. 

Action against Da’esh in Libya is needed for the safety of Libyans, but also for 

the safety of their neighbors. Libya’s porous borders and political and security vacuum have allowed Da’esh to plan and carry out significant attacks in Tunisia and 

Libya. A number of other terrorist organizations also operate in Libya, including the 

Benghazi and Derna factions of Ansar al-Sharia, which led the 2012 attack on U.S. 

facilities in Benghazi, as well as Al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) and alMurabitun. 

Our counterterrorism policy in Libya is focused on degrading Da’esh and other 

violent extremist groups and reducing the threat they pose to U.S. interests in 

North Africa and Europe. In Libya as elsewhere, the President has made clear his 

willingness to take action wherever our interests are in danger. In the past year 

the United States has conducted direct action against several terrorist targets in 

Libya: our June 2015 strike near the city of Ajdabiya targeted Al-Qaida-affiliated 

Algerian Mokhtar Belmokhtar; our November 2015 strike outside Derna killed Iraqi 

national and senior Da’esh figure in Libya Abu Nabil al-Anbari; and our February 

19 strikes took out a Da’esh training camp and a foreign fighter facilitator in the 

western town of Sabratha. We also are focused on disrupting connections between 

the Da’esh branch in Libya and the core group in Iraq and Syria, and the Global 

Coalition to Counter ISIL has committed to a concerted push to halt the flow of foreign fighters to Libya, disrupt Da’esh finances there, and counter and defeat its destructive message. 

Meanwhile the United States is expanding contacts with a range of groups in 

Libya, with the objective of identifying and assisting willing and capable potential 

partners that work under the GNA’s command. We also actively work with Libya’s 

neighbors on terrestrial and maritime border security to shut down the cross-border 

flow of weapons and fighters. This is a particularly difficult challenge in Libya, especially in the south, and for long-term success we need a strong, accountable Libyan 

security force. 

At the meeting in Vienna, Prime Minister Sarraj announced plans to seek equipment and training for GNA forces. The GNA will need the support of the U.S. and 

international community to be successful in this effort. We are working with the 

GNA and our international partners to determine what assistance can be provided 

and, at the same time, to determine ways to enforce the embargo to prevent arms 

shipments to groups operating outside GNA authority. Prime Minister al-Sarraj has 

been clear that Libya does not need or desire a military intervention, but that it 

will need the international community’s support to win the fight against Da’esh. 

It will take time for the GNA to establish the security institutions and capacity 

to combat Da’esh, guard its borders and fully protect its citizens. The United States 

recognizes that this will be a long fight, and that we will need to provide help in 

coordination with our allies. But we are encouraged that the political conditions on 

the ground are improving to allow a strong counterterrorism partnership. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
8 

As we see some progress on the political and security fronts in Libya, we remain 

deeply concerned about the destructive impact of the ongoing violence on the civilian 

population in Libya. The GNA must move quickly to address systemic governance 

and justice issues. Libyans and migrants in Libya are also in need of urgent humanitarian relief. Men, women, and children in Libya deserve basic services and improved living conditions. The United States has already committed more than $4 

million of humanitarian assistance in our current fiscal year to Libya through the 

Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and International Committee of 

the Red Cross, as well as $1 million to an international humanitarian NGO to help 

address the most urgent public health needs throughout Libya. This brings our total 

humanitarian assistance to more than $115 million since the start of the conflict. 

Currently, the Administration is planning to provide $35 million in FY 2016 and 

prior year funds to help Libya’s political transition produce an accountable and effective national government. U.S. support remains essential to strengthening 

Libya’s democratic and governance institutions, and supporting regional security. As 

part of this assistance, the United States also intends to commit up to $4 million 

in support of the UNDP-led Stabilization Facility for Libya, intended to provide support to small-scale infrastructure projects, build municipal administrative capacity, 

and enable local conflict resolution and mediation. 

Working with the Libyan government and private sector, we are supporting targeted economic engagements that expand links with the United States and the global economy. Furthermore, to help Libyan young people prepare for careers in the 

global economy and broaden our people-to-people relationships, the United States is 

funding scholarships, professional exchanges, and English-language learning programs. 

In addition, the Administration has requested $20.5 million for assistance to 

Libya in FY 2017 from Congress. These funds will enable us to respond quickly to 

Libya’s emerging needs and support programs to increase security and counterterrorism capabilities, while helping the GNA function as an inclusive and rights-respecting national government. Funds will build Libyan governance capacity, crucial 

to stopping the spread of terrorist groups. 

We understand the need to ensure our assistance and programming is flexible. We 

will respond to assistance requests from the GNA and continue to engage a broad 

range of Libyan stakeholders, such as senior officials of the new government, civil 

society, tribes, women, and youth. Despite instability and political divisions in 2014 

and 2015, the United States continued implementation of key programs supporting 

the democratic political transition, particularly at the local level, through local partners. Active programs in over 15 Libyan municipalities representing 75 percent of 

the population support civil society, elected officials, entrepreneurs, and municipal 

governments. The United States continues to work with local institutions—mayors, 

council members, and staff—on service delivery, violence prevention strategies, and 

local government administration.Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee: as 

I described at the outset today, the United States supports the aspirations of the 

Libyan people for a united, inclusive, and responsive national government capable 

of overcoming the country’s significant political challenges and divisions since the 

2011 revolution. The U.S. government is deeply engaged with Libya because we 

have shared interests that are essential to our national security. Thank you for the 

opportunity to testify. I look forward to answering any questions you have. 

I assume that you believe that it is reasonable that Libya can be 

put back together as a unified state that can secure its border and 

maintain monopoly over the use of force. Is that something that 

you believe can occur? 

Mr. WINER. I believe it can occur. Several things in your statement that need all be taken into consideration. A unitary state for 

Libya is absolutely essential. Any division of Libya into parts will 

be disastrous for the people of Libya, for the country, for the region, and bad across the board. Border control is something that 

is going to require work by Libya’s neighbors, as well as by Libya. 

The CHAIRMAN. You know, based on the way things are progressing at present, how long into the future do you think that is? 

Mr. WINER. Well, the Government of National Accord has made 

more progress over the last 75 days than most people ever expected 

it would be able to make in that period of time. The advances that 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
9 

they have made against Da’esh in the Sirte region are truly impressive and involve a tremendous amount of sacrifice by Libyan 

soldiers. 

The CHAIRMAN. Is Da’esh the unifying force right now that is 

causing them to come together? 

Mr. WINER. Samuel Johnson, the British writer, once said that 

the prospect of a hanging concentrates the mind. And I think that 

has been an element that has helped bring Libyans together is concern about their security, as well as their economic situation. 

The CHAIRMAN. So after ISIS is dealt with effectively, is there 

any sense that because this is a unifying force that is bringing people together citing historians—is there concern that after that is 

dealt with, the civil war can again break out? 

Mr. WINER. I think that the approach of having a Government 

of National Accord for a transition is designed to produce mechanisms for getting services provided and political support in east, 

west, and south. For the government to succeed, it has to be able 

to provide services at the local level. There has to be buy-in in municipalities throughout the country with real attention given to underserved areas from the past. That is an important part of the political—— 

The CHAIRMAN. And are they capable of doing that? We do not 

have sectarian issues here, but we certainly had divisions within 

the country. So is it reasonable to believe in a period of time that 

matters they are going to be able to do that? 

Mr. WINER. I do not think it is easy for them to do it. I think 

they are working on it. The Presidency Council consists of nine 

people representing all three major regions, and I have seen them 

begin to work together and grow together into a working unit. And 

I think they are committed to that. The constitution that the Libyans still need to build out and the elections they still need to carry 

out for a permanent government are going to have to be designed 

by Libyans to address these core issues so that they have a nation 

that they can build for the future. But given their potential oil 

wealth, past and future, they have the tools. In theory, they should 

be able to do it. 

The CHAIRMAN. So, you know, this was a case of—I know that 

most of the committee was in a different place than I was on this. 

But I did not understand what our national interests were in going 

in in the first place. I certainly did not understand going in, decapitating the government, and leaving as we have. 

You just laid out a series of numbers which certainly to most 

Americans is a lot of money, but on the other hand, as we know, 

as it relates to dealing with these kind of issues, a very, very light 

amount of resources. 

I am just wondering what role you see the U.S. playing right 

now. Are we one of 30 countries? Are we the lead country? It does 

not appear, if you look at the resources being allocated, if we are 

the major force in helping this all come together, there is much effort that is happening on the ground. Can you share with us your 

thoughts in that regard? 

Mr. WINER. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The assistance money we are 

asking for are comparatively small amounts by comparison to what 

we are doing in Iraq, for example, or in many other places. There 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
10 

we are part of an international coalition to try and help Libya 

through this transition—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Who is leading that coalition? 

Mr. WINER. The U.N. is essentially in the lead, the U.N. mission 

in Libya. The European Union is committing substantial amounts, 

as are individual—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Are they taking more of a leading role in Libya 

than the United States is? The European Union? 

Mr. WINER. No, sir. But in the assistance area, our requests are 

what they are. Our core work over this past year has been political 

in the first instance, to get alignment amongst all Libya’s neighbors, important regional players beyond Libya’s neighbors, the Europeans, and us to work with the Libyans to try and bring them 

together, get them aligned instead of fighting one another. That 

has taken an immense amount of work and it played a substantial 

role in the creation of the Government of National Accord. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think all of us on the committee have 

traveled through northern Africa and just seen the havoc that the 

fall of Libya has created, the amount of arms that have traveled 

through those countries, the support that is given for 

transnationalist terrorist groups to be able to do what they are 

doing. That has happened. That is water, if you will, under the 

bridge. 

I still am having difficulties seeing the progress. I am glad we 

have someone like yourself there, but do understand that if we end 

up in a situation years from now where a country cannot maintain 

its borders, cannot have total control over what is happening militarily in the country, that havoc is going to continue. 

We thank you for your efforts and look forward to additional 

questions. 

Senator Cardin? 

Senator CARDIN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Winer, I certainly understand the U.S. participation with the 

international community in 2011, and it, I think, was well received 

in Congress, although the administration chose not to submit an 

authorization for the use of military force. And as I said in my 

opening statement, I think we have to act when we have a reason 

to do it, but we have to think about the consequences after those 

actions. 

Now, today my understanding is that we have a limited number 

of special op forces that are operating in Libya, and I know that 

Great Britain and France have also interjected some troops. Are 

foreign nations considering sending ground forces into Libya? 

Mr. WINER. I am not aware of anything beyond a training and 

equip mission, Senator. 

Senator CARDIN. And what is the intention for U.S. additional 

personnel being used in Libya? 

Mr. WINER. I think that question needs to be addressed probably 

in another setting and with the participation of other parts of the 

U.S. Government. 

Senator CARDIN. Could you tell us whether the administration is 

anticipating sending up an authorization to Congress for its military campaign in Libya? 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
11 

Mr. WINER. I do not know of a military campaign in Libya being 

contemplated, Senator. 

Senator CARDIN. Well, we have our people there. I understand 

the difference between combat and I understand the lines that you 

are drawing. So is it anticipated that you will see congressional action as part of the strategy for a united front for U.S. participation 

in whatever is done in Libya? 

Mr. WINER. I am prepared to provide you any information I have 

in an appropriate setting at any time. 

Senator CARDIN. One of the factors that you judge how well we 

are proceeding—and I acknowledged in my opening statement the 

progress that you have made against the terrorists, and that has 

been some major advancements. And we have yet to see the ratification of the unity government, which is a major step that is yet 

to be taken. And we know that there are leaders in Libya that are 

resisting that. So we are not there yet by any stretch of the imagination. You gave a pretty optimistic account. 

One of the indicators would be the reopening of our embassy. Is 

that likely to occur in the near future? 

Mr. WINER. Senator, we very much want to have our embassy reopened in Libya. That is a policy goal. We want to be present in 

Libya. We think it is important that we are present in Libya. Our 

ability to do that depends on our evaluation of the security situation, and as of now, we have not evaluated that it is time for us 

to do that. Before we do that, we will be back here to talk to you 

all about it. 

Senator CARDIN. Could you be more specific as to what conditions 

are going to be necessary to reopen our embassy? 

Mr. WINER. Diplomatic security is going to have to feel that it 

is the right thing to do in the first instance, and then other parts 

of the administration would have to concur. And then we would be 

down here talking to you about it. 

Senator CARDIN. Tell me the capacity of the Libyan people to 

take on ISIL. What is the capacity with or without a GNA? How 

do you see their ability to defend themselves against ISIL? 

Mr. WINER. Well, Senator, under the period of divided government, when the government that we recognized, whose house was 

based in Tobruk and whose government was based in Bayda in the 

extreme east of Libya, when we had that period and there was a 

competing government that no one recognized in Tripoli, that is the 

period of time when Da’esh secured a presence in the far east of 

the country in Derna and a substantial geographic territory in the 

region around Sirte in the center of Libya’s coastal region. 

Since the Government of National Accord was agreed on in 

Skhirat on December 17th and then voted on favorably for the 

Presidency Council and the political agreement, although not for 

the cabinet, by the house of representatives on January 25th, we 

have seen different Libyan forces take on Da’esh with some substantial success. Da’esh was first kicked out of Derna by local extremist forces. Some of the people who had invited them in decided 

they did not like being told what to do by foreign extremists. And 

then additional forces associated with General Haftar have undertaken further efforts in and around Derna. And most recently, 

forces east and west of Sirte have collaborated expressly under the 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
12 

Government of National Accord through operations rooms to impressively push Da’esh back out of Sirte. 

Senator CARDIN. I want to get one more question in with the 

chairman’s permission here because I do not want to disappoint the 

chairman and not mention my favorite subject of good governance 

and corruption. 

One of the real challenges is the trafficking through Libya, which 

is causing people at risk through traffickers to try to get to Europe. 

Part of that is corruption within the Libyan government. In addition, you have a large percentage of the population that is in desperate need of humanitarian assistance, and the honesty and institutions of government are so weak, it is hard to get that aid. What 

is the prognosis that we will have a functioning government that 

can stop the traffickers and can be available to deliver the humanitarian aid that is needed? 

Mr. WINER. I cannot offer a probability, Senator. The government 

is working initially to counter—— 

Senator CARDIN. Is that a high priority for us? I mean, I understand that we have a lot of political problems, but are we making 

with our international partners a high priority to make sure that 

we can stop the tragedies that are taking place in the humanitarian crisis? 

Mr. WINER. Well, just this week, Senator, the U.N. endorsed a 

resolution put forth by the United Kingdom to enhance maritime 

oversight of potential arms trafficking internationally. From my 

point of view, the more vessels there are in the area of Libya, the 

more likely we will be able to begin to combat the migrant flow. 

We talked to all Libya’s neighbors about it. We talked to the Libyans about it. Dealing with migrant trafficking in any country, as 

Europe has demonstrated itself through any number of national 

borders, is a very difficult business, and it is going to take a lot 

of work over a long time. 

In terms of the humanitarian crisis, we have been working with 

the Central Bank of Libya, with the national oil company, with the 

Presidency Council on measures to try and reduce the risk of humanitarian crisis and get some traction on problems of liquidity 

they have been facing as a result of the loss of confidence in the 

government during the two-government period. And we are making 

some progress in that area. 

Senator CARDIN. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Perdue? 

Senator PERDUE. Thank you and thank you for your service. 

I have two quick questions, and I really want to get to the arms 

embargo that the ranking member mentioned. But first I want to 

talk about and get your opinion on this potential financial situation 

in Libya, which I think is very critical as well. 

You know, oil is right now almost all—almost 97 percent—of 

their revenue. And I know with the price of oil being down and also 

their annual production is about a third of their capacity, if I have 

got the numbers right. And then I look at the reserves, and the reserves, depending on the amount of outtake they have every year, 

could be as short-lived as 3 to 9 years. Well, that is shocking, if 

that is 100 percent of their economy and you only have 3 to 9 years 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
13 

in the best situation, what is the outcome here? Because you got 

a financial catastrophe sitting right here in the midst of this very 

distressed battle situation. So I am trying to get past the ceasefire 

and all the rest of it and say, okay, what do we do to rebuild that 

country economically so you can stop the fostering of this radical 

element. So would you address the financial potential collapse that 

we are looking at here? 

Mr. WINER. Yes, sir. You have just identified one of the core 

issues that we have been concerned about and been working on. 

They are at risk of eating all of their seed corn and being left with 

a disaster if they do not get their acts together to pump their oil. 

We are working right now to try and get Ibrahim al-Jadhran and 

his national petroleum forces to turn the oil back on in the oil crescent. 

Senator PERDUE. But if he turns it on, do you not have the reserve problem? And that shortens the number of the years until 

they actually burn it all out. 

Mr. WINER. I think that the problem is not so much pumping it 

out and losing it. There is still room for further exploration and 

further development, as it is the problem of too much money going 

out and not enough coming in, where the IMF has said to us, for 

example, there is no solution, no reforms they can take if they are 

not producing their oil. 

Senator PERDUE. Their debt situation is already at a crisis level. 

Mr. WINER. They are in a very difficult economic situation right 

now as a result of not pumping their oil. They should be pumping 

1.5 million a day. They have been pumping less than 400,000 a 

day. Last week, I talked with the head of the petroleum forces and 

said you have got to turn the oil back on. Now, he now supports 

the Government of National Accord. His forces have been fighting 

to get rid of Da’esh, and I think that that oil is going to be turned 

on. It is absolutely critical. There are forces in the west, the Zintan. 

They have shut down 440,000 barrels a day because some of their 

concerns have not been met. 

Senator PERDUE. Since that is such an important economic 

issue—I am sorry to interrupt. 

Mr. WINER. Yes, sir. 

Senator PERDUE. But does ISIS pose a threat to that oil production even if they could turn it up? 

Mr. WINER. To the production, yes. To exploitation, probably not. 

The pipelines run north-south, south-north. And they are not really 

exploitable in Libya in the way they have been exploitable in Iraq. 

Da’esh did attack the oil crescent area and destroyed some terminals, some areas where oil was being stored at the terminals. And 

that has probably reduced their capacity some, but it is quite limited damage at this point. One of the things that is really impressive about the efforts against Da’esh in the Sirte region and the oil 

crescent region is it has begun to push them away from their ability to threaten Libya’s future oil production. And so that is a significant development. 

But the Libyans need to draw together and address one another’s 

grievances so that everybody agrees to allow the oil to be pumped 

again so that they have less of a mismatch between the money that 

is coming into their treasury and the money that is going out. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
14 

Senator PERDUE. Would you agree we are within a year or 2, in 

the best case scenario, of really having a potential collapse, though, 

if they do not do that? 

Mr. WINER. Yes, sir. A couple years. 

Senator PERDUE. Second question. I am sorry. Thank you for that 

candor. 

Relative to the U.N. Security Council resolution just yesterday I 

believe, what do you think the impact of that will be? And will it 

have any impact on what is coming in to support Da’esh? 

Mr. WINER. It is not clear to me where Da’esh is getting its 

weapons from. I think a lot of it is from domestic stockpiles and 

that kind of thing. What is important about the arms embargo is 

limiting the risk of different international players aligning themselves with different forces within the country and thus exacerbating the risk of internal conflict. 

We spent a tremendous amount of time in 2015 and the first half 

of 2016 getting regional players aligned. There are three conditions 

for us to have success in Libya. Very briefly. 

One, negotiating process. We worked that out and we got the 

Government of National Accord and the Libyan political agreement 

by having one U.N.-led process. 

Secondly, having regional players with interests and relationships in Libya agree on a common course and press forces within 

Libya that they have been working with to participate in and to 

agree with it. We have gotten tremendous success in that. That is 

the second. 

Third, there has to be benefits at the local level, at municipalities 

throughout the country in different regions, from the agreement 

and from the government so that they have a stake in stability. We 

are working on that, Senator. 

Senator PERDUE. One last comment. I applaud all of that. My 

only admonition would be to add a fourth, and that is the post effort, what happens after that happens to the economy and to the 

people and the economy that we are talking about so that we can 

minimize the danger of continued radicalization there. 

Mr. WINER. Ultimately we would like to see the Libyans develop 

a revenue sharing mechanism where resources go to people at the 

local level. They have to get the basics down in public financial administration so there is greater accountability for their resources 

and their spending in systems that are transparent to the Libyan 

people and which meet modern standards. That would be very good 

for Libya. Some of the money that we are requesting from Congress 

today would go to that. Some of the money you provided us in the 

past will be going to public financial administration. 

Senator PERDUE. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. WINER. Yes, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Markey, are you squared away? 

Senator MARKEY. Is that synonymous with having just sat down? 

Squared away? [Laughter.] 

The CHAIRMAN. No. It is synonymous with knowing your staff 

was still whispering in your ear, and I was not sure you had taken 

it all in. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
15 

Senator MARKEY. I think I am ready to go. 

Thank you, sir. Thank you for your service. 

Senator Cardin and I, Senator Gardner, we were just in Saudi 

Arabia about 10 weeks ago, and one of the highest ranking ministers said to us that Libya was going to make Syria look like a 

piece of cake, which was a very startling comment to come from 

that source. 

What would it take for that set of circumstances to unfold, and 

what can we do to avoid it from ultimately transpiring? 

Mr. WINER. Senator, regional competition in support of different 

forces so that Libyans cannot come together to fight terrorists could 

potentially lead to a very bad scenario. And that is one of the 

things that we have been working to counter over the past year, 

year and a half. 

Having the terrorists destroy oil infrastructure and having the 

oil not continue to flow to be able to fund core government activities and salaries for government workers and for the people of 

Libya would be another threat, if there is a humanitarian collapse 

due to the inability of Libya to sustain its economy. That would be 

a second element. 

The third element would be not taking on Da’esh now and allowing it to gain a further foothold. They do not produce anything— 

the Islamic State. They are entirely predatory. They live off the 

land and they live off the land in an extraordinarily ugly and ruthless fashion, as we all know. So they need to grab more territory 

at all times in order to survive. So when you push them back on 

their heels and take territory away from them, it is very difficult 

for them to continue because they need to be able to generate income to keep themselves going. So ignoring that problem would 

create the kind of risk that you are talking about. 

So there is the risk of internal conflict. There is the risk of economic and humanitarian collapse, and there is the risk from 

Da’esh. The three of them are intertwined, which is why the strategy has been to get political alignment so that we can get the Libyans to undertake, as they want to do, countering the threat to all 

of them from the Islamic State, which they detest. 

Senator MARKEY. So in your testimony, you pointed out that in 

Libya, ISIS lacks the ability to use oil smuggling as a major revenue-generating resource, as it has done in Iraq and in Syria. In 

March, this committee held a hearing on Libya, during which I expressed deep concerns that ISIS appeared to be expanding to the 

point where they could have threatened sensitive petroleum port 

facilities and improved their longer-term capability to move against 

oil production facilities in the interior regions to the south. 

But now the immediate risk appears to be greatly reduced, 

thanks to the current offensive operations by militias loyal to the 

Government of National Accord, which appears close to defeating 

ISIS in Sirte. 

I give great credit to the administration, our military forces that 

are assisting militias loyal to the new Government of National Accord, and our international partners for what appears to be 

progress against ISIS in Libya. If it were not for their efforts, I believe that we could have faced a real risk of ISIS gaining access 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
16 

to revenue-generating oil resources in Libya, as it has done in 

Syria. 

That said, no single tactical success is sufficient to avoid this 

kind of strategic risk. While militias loyal to the Government of 

National Accord are fighting ISIS in Sirte, General Haftar, who is 

aligned with the house of representatives in Tobruk is positioning 

his forces to the south of Sirte where they are watching and waiting. Although General Haftar and the Tobruk house oppose ISIS, 

they have not agreed to support the Government of National Accord. 

Mr. Winer, this appears to be a moment ripe for aggressive political intervention. Our allies, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates, 

have a history of supporting General Haftar and the house of representatives in Tobruk. If General Haftar goes to war with the militias loyal to the Government of National Accord, there will only 

be further chaos, and ISIS will have an opportunity to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and will resume the expansion in 

Libya. 

What are we, the U.N., and EU doing to bring General Haftar 

and the Tobruk house of representatives together with the Government of National Accord? 

Mr. WINER. Thank you, Senator. 

I must say that each of you worry about the same things that 

I worry about. The anxieties I have heard today are consistent with 

the things that we are worrying about and thinking about every 

day when it comes to Libya. 

Senator MARKEY. I guess in your answer could you specifically 

tell me if we are working with Egypt and the UAE to push General 

Haftar and the Tobruk house towards an agreement with the new 

government. Are we doing that right now? 

Mr. WINER. Egypt and the UAE, like every other country neighboring Libya and every other country in the region, have signed on 

to both expressly and in bilateral discussions with us, as well as 

in multilateral fora, on supporting the Government of National Accord and working to get people they have been close to into the 

Government of National accord. 

Secretary Kerry said in Vienna last month that the United 

States wants to see General Haftar be part of a solution. We see 

him as playing a potentially significant role, but he is not going to 

be the only one, clearly, playing a significant role. And it has to be 

under the GNA and within the context of a civilian-led government. 

We are working on that and we are consulting with the UAE and 

Egypt on that, among others. And I feel we have a very great degree of alignment and a constructive fashion that could well lead 

to positive results as we have already seen positive results of these 

past weeks in Sirte. 

Senator MARKEY. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

Senator Gardner? 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I do not know if Senator Markey mentioned this to you or not, 

but a couple of months ago we had the opportunity to travel to 

Saudi Arabia and visit with Deputy Crown Prince, the Crown 

Prince, and others in the royal family, as well as the Foreign MinVerDate Mar 15 2010 13:24 Mar 14, 2018 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 S:\FULL COMMITTEE\HEARING FILES\2016 HEARINGS -- WORKING\061516 -- LIBYA\28-

FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
17 

ister and other members of the government. And one of the questions to I believe it was the Crown Prince, I believe, was the situation in Libya, the situation in Syria, and when it came specifically 

to the question in Libya, the question was asked, how do you think 

it compares to Syria. And I believe the response was simply Syria 

is a piece of cake or will be a piece of cake compared to Libya 

should this collapse occur. And perhaps you had already mentioned 

that, and I do not want to mischaracterize the statement. 

But could you perhaps explain how that could be the case and 

whether or not you agree with comments, such comments like you 

look at the Crown Prince’s remarks that Syria is a piece of cake 

compared to Libya? And could you perhaps compare that to comments made yesterday by the President saying that ISIS ranks are 

shrinking and its morale is sinking, and is that really consistent 

with what the Crown Prince is saying and what you are seeing on 

the ground in Libya? 

Mr. WINER. Senator, if you look at where things were—I guess 

you were there 10 weeks ago, roughly? 

Senator GARDNER. Roughly. 

Mr. WINER. The Government of National Accord has been in 

place precisely about that amount of time in Tripoli, and since it 

has come into place, bit by bit the Libyans have configured themselves to begin to take Da’esh on. They have secured increasing 

support domestically. It is not complete, but I would note that a 

majority of the house of representatives has been ready to support 

the cabinet selected by the Government of National Accord and 

Presidency Council. They have not been permitted to vote by a minority. And so we do have some political limitations, but you have 

seen support for this government grow. 

The Libyan people expect more out of the Presidency Council and 

the GNA than they have gotten. That is normal and natural. People all over the world want more out of their governments than 

they tend to get, and there are frustrations with what the government can actually do. The government needs to do more. 

But the progress being made is being made on the ground, sir, 

every day right now. So I think pessimistic snapshots in Libya are 

absolutely legitimate. There are lots of grounds for pessimism. 

There are also grounds for optimism and real progress. If we were 

today in a situation where you had still competing governments, no 

Government of National Accord, no political road map forward, no 

progress against Da’esh, no prospects for getting the oil turned on 

again and addressing the mismatch, we would be in a much worse 

situation, a much more threatening situation than the one we are 

in. 

Now, could the advances of the past few months still be reversed? Yes. The situation is fragile. We cannot say we are in a 

safe place, that Libya is in a safe place. Libyans are going to have 

to continue to come together and work together to address grievances and differences for the common good, and it is our job as the 

United States to try and encourage them to do that, to encourage 

other countries to help them do that, and to be part of an alignment and unity-building process. That is hard to do in any country. 

It is very hard in Libya, but it is not futile. It is beginning to happen and we are seeing some positive results as a consequence. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
18 

Senator GARDNER. And I apologize if I am asking you a question 

that has already been covered here, but the administration’s request for Libya was down from $35 million in fiscal year 2016 to 

$20 million in 2017. That is in State Department-administered 

funds. Why is that the case? 

Mr. WINER. The absorptive capacity of the Libyan government in 

the past has been very limited. Our focus is on delivering services 

to communities, helping the government through the transition. 

Public financial administration, which I mentioned earlier, is the 

kind of thing, for example, we are doing, working with the constitutional drafting assembly to get the constitution process completed. 

We are trying to act to synergize other activities working with the 

U.N., the EU, and a number of other countries rather than to do 

it all ourselves. So these modest amounts are there to help fill the 

territory where there are gaps and to provide some impulses to 

help them go forward. 

But the core of the work right now has been political first. It is 

political, security, and then it is development, and all three of those 

things are going to have to go together. If Libya gets its acts together successfully so Libyans continue to come together, they 

should again be able to finance these activities, but they have to 

begin pumping their oil again, close to the 1.5 million they used to 

pump, at least a million barrels a day, and then they can begin to 

work through creating a national budget and starting to invest in 

their own infrastructure and projects again. So we are trying to 

jump start things, but the vast preponderance of the funding is 

likely to come from Libya, as it should. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Cardin? 

Senator CARDIN. Well, I am encouraged by some of your comments. Obviously, this is not an easy situation particularly the 

three goals that you mentioned, including that the people see benefit. I think that is a critically important part for stability in Libya. 

And you have mentioned that the oil flow was part of that. You 

have mentioned security as part of that. If the oil flow goes to help 

the people of Libya, then they see the benefit of it. If it goes to fuel 

corruption, they do not. If security is there to help the welfare of 

the general population, they see the benefit. If it is there to preserve a corrupt regime, they do not see the benefit. 

So I just really want to underscore my just request. And I know 

the administration is committed to democratic institutions in the 

countries that we work in and fighting corruption and dealing with 

those issues. But to me unless that is in the priorities from the beginning, it gets lost as we go through the process. 

So I just really want to underscore what I hope is your commitment as our representative on this that it will be clear that as you 

go through the process of reconciliation and developing a unity government that there is accountability in there for good governance 

so that the people of Libya can see the benefits of what is going 

on, that there can be the type of support for a unity government 

to succeed, and we really can have a long-term stability in that 

very important country in the region. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
19 

Mr. WINER. Senator, the young people of Libya are the country’s 

future. At some level that is a cliche but at some level it is such 

a profoundly true statement about these countries in North Africa 

and the Middle East that have such a preponderance of younger 

people. The degree to which they are interested in political dialogue, reconciliation, and finding a way forward in their country is 

very impressive. 

The interim government, the Government of National Accord, 

has to be successful enough to give the new Libya a chance to be 

born and to build, and everything that we do in Libya as the 

United States needs to be consistent with the values you just expressed and the values of the American people at its foundation, 

which are very similar to the values of most Libyans that I have 

been exposed to. They say things that are very similar to what you 

have just said to me. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Menendez? 

Senator MENENDEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Winer, thank you for your work in this regard. 

I think this is a particularly important hearing because we 

should be riveted on what, if anything, the United States can do 

beyond what it is doing to assist the Libyan people in building a 

country that a mad dictator had systematically dismantled over the 

course of 4 decades and ultimately how to bring Libya into the 

community of nations with accountable institutions of governance, 

respect for human rights, security for law-abiding citizens, and a 

productive economy that contributes to, not detracts from global resource in other markets. 

But this complicated reality on the ground is one that has been 

centuries in the making. It is a transactional society with hundreds 

of militias, competing ethnic and tribal affiliation, very competitive 

regional loyalties that on any single day can include homegrown 

and foreign-born radical Islamists seeking to spread jihad, neighbors simply seeking to defend their homes and families, gangs 

stealing oil and wealth and engaging in gratuitous violence, tribes 

and states of cold and hot wars against one another for generations, regional actors in three distinct Libyan regions exploiting or 

protecting natural resources like oil and water, just to mention 

some. 

So what I am trying to get an insight is what could an intervening party like the international community have imposed on 

these competing and conflicting groups to bring them to a resolution. We had a democratic process, which by all accounts produced 

some relatively free and fair national elections in 2012, peacefully 

transitioned power from one elected body to an elected body, seated 

a national parliament that established legitimate government, all 

within the first year of the anniversary of Qaddafi’s death. 

So what is it that can be done by the international community 

here to impose upon these parties the ability to achieve the goals 

that we all collectively want? 

Mr. WINER. Thank you, Senator. 

All the problems that you just articulated are real, and they 

should not be glossed over and they should not be treated lightly. 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
20 

The challenges that any Libyan faces are substantial. But it also 

has a group of people who are patriotic, have some education, have 

some vision of what their country could be, and are distributed in 

many different parts of the country. 

National dialogue and reconciliation, political mechanisms, political activities are central to the future of the country and having 

the country emerge from this period of fragmentation that it has 

just gone through. 

Our work is to align countries in the region, all their neighbors 

and regional players, as well as Europeans and us in support of a 

common approach to strengthen national institutions so they can 

combat at least some of those threats that you have just articulated 

long enough for Libya to evolve to its next phase, supported by the 

considerable natural wealth it can continue to generate from oil at 

1.5 million barrels a day in its current capacity, which could go up 

to 2 million I am told by oil experts. 

Senator MENENDEZ. So let us talk about that. If our goal is to 

bring other nations in the region in harmony—— 

Mr. WINER. Yes, sir. 

Senator MENENDEZ.—with that goal, then it seems to me that is 

a concern insofar as that despite pledges to support the diplomatic 

process in the Government of National Accord, there have been reports that numerous U.S. allies, including Egypt, Qatar, the United 

Arab Emirates, and Turkey have violated the U.N. arms embargo 

against Libya, supplying arms to both sides of the conflict. And I 

understand now—and maybe you can respond to this—that the administration has expressed a willingness to consider loosening the 

embargo to arm the GNA in its fight against the Islamic State. 

How can the administration ensure that its allies are abiding by 

international law and not undermining the unity government? And 

how can the United States ensure that the Government of National 

Accord is strong enough to control any arms that are supplied? 

Mr. WINER. Lots of questions embedded in that question, sir. 

Let us start with the arms embargo. We have made no findings 

about violations. The U.N. panel of experts in March I believe— 

March or April—issued a report which described the issues that 

you have raised without making any final findings. We talked to— 

I have talked to all the countries you have mentioned about the 

need not to support competing forces but to support a unified Government of National Accord, and I believe we have very considerable alignment on that. I was just in the region last week on these 

very issues. 

The idea behind the exemption to the arms embargo is to provide 

a uniform set of weapons that can provide relatively integrated 

counterterrorism capabilities to address the threat from the Islamic 

State and other terrorist forces near-term and medium-term and to 

do so in a way that is trackable and traceable and subject to oversight so it does not disappear, go to bad places, go to the wrong 

people. That is the idea, and the idea would be for the Libyan government to ask that of the United States and of other countries at 

the same time and to have any exemption get notified through the 

U.N. so it is visible, can be seen by the P5 and other U.N. Security 

Council members and by the whole world, and then as a result of 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
21 

being transparent, be more subject to oversight and accountability 

for the Libyan people, for the region, and for the world. 

Senator MENENDEZ. If I may, Mr. Chairman, one last question. 

That takes a condition precedent that the GNA is sufficiently 

strong and capable enough even of giving that process to ensure 

that it can control the arms that it is supplied. Have we come to 

that conclusion? 

Mr. WINER. Yes, but it is also part of the responsibility of any 

country providing those weapons to ensure that. It in practice can 

be a shared responsibility. I am happy to brief further on that, Senator. 

Senator MENENDEZ. I would forward to that because, you know, 

I used to hold up weapons sales to some countries because I feared 

that in fact they did not have the wherewithal to do that. And sure 

enough, we lost a lot of weapons to ISIS. I am not talking about 

Libya now, but in other locations. And we need not to do that 

again. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Just to follow up on that, what is occurring relative to Da’esh, 

or ISIS? You know, we had estimated 5 to 6,500 troops there, and 

yet it seems they are falling away rapidly. Are they just blending 

in with the rest of the country? What do we think is occurring with 

the rest of Da’esh? 

Mr. WINER. Mr. Chairman, I still have a fragmentary picture of 

what is going on because the situation is so dynamic. I have heard 

reports of elements of Da’esh bleeding away to the south and to the 

west, both in connection with the current offensive by forces to the 

east and west of Sirte. They have clearly lost several hundred 

fighters. I was talking with a member of the Presidency Council 

late last night about the state of play. He told me that the forces 

of the Government of National Accord had essentially come into the 

City of Sirte from the west and now had geographic control of the 

entire territory of the west and the south, that they still did not 

have control from about 7 kilometers east of Sirte, that there have 

been mines laid and improvised explosive devices and that kind of 

thing which were impeding their ability to get to the rest of the 

way into Sirte. So I am hearing both of the establishment of potential cells in other parts of Libya and of very substantial losses of 

personnel and by the Islamic State in Sirte to the forces aligned 

with the Government of National Accord as they have entered and 

regained that territory. I am still trying to develop further information, but that is the core of what we have seen so far. 

Now, before this happened, we were already seeing something 

very interesting. I mentioned earlier that Da’esh is predatory and 

does not generate income or wealth of its own. It simply steals it. 

Sirte had already been devastated in the course of the revolution. 

Relatively speaking, it was resource poor. Indeed, there are grievances among ordinary people in Sirte that are legitimate because 

it never came back after the revolution to oust Qaddafi. So Da’esh 

was beginning to run into resource constraints in Libya, which I 

think were beginning to affect its success. 

Now, I fully expect that the successes of the past few weeks will 

be responded to by elements of Da’esh, and there are domestic LibVerDate Mar 15 2010 13:24 Mar 14, 2018 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 S:\FULL COMMITTEE\HEARING FILES\2016 HEARINGS -- WORKING\061516 -- LIBYA\28-

FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
22 

yan extremists as well. There is Al Qaeda in the Maghreb. We 

should not forget them. There is Al-Mourabitoun. There is Ansar 

al-Sharia, two different elements of Ansar al-Sharia. They are still 

there. So the fight against terrorism in Libya is by no means over. 

It is going to require a sustained effort over an extended period. 

But the geographic control that becomes some of the base for the 

financial sustainment of ISIL is dropping away. And there are different types of Da’esh. There are people who are core believers, and 

there are people for whom it may be a better paycheck or opportunity this week but something else may be better next week. 

The CHAIRMAN. One of the things that we typically have to expend a large amount of resources on is building up a military 

through training and making sure there is a unified force. What is 

happening in that regard in Tripoli—I mean, excuse me—throughout Libya either by us or by other governments to be building up 

an actual trained military force that can, in fact, do the things that 

we know need to be done there? 

Mr. WINER. Mr. Chairman, the Presidency Council has been in 

place for about 75 days now in Tripoli. About a month ago, they 

announced that they would create a presidential guard. They have 

yet to ask foreigners for help on that. I expect that is going to 

come. And they began organizing the current effort against Da’esh 

in Sirte which involved the creation of operations rooms to take 

them on which, as we have seen, has been remarkably successful, 

but no one should be overly optimistic that it is all over. It is not 

going to be. 

Meanwhile, General Haftar has continued his efforts to reclaim 

Benghazi, supported by other elements of the Libya national army. 

He has also undertaken efforts in Derna which previously were 

preceded by domestic Libyan extremists kicking out foreign extremists. 

So the picture is not a simple one. We are going to have to collectively—we being a collective, not just the United States—support 

the creation of the uniform police and military that can provide security on a national basis, that are still respectful of localities and 

the need for local security, in addition to national security, as we 

have in our own federalist system. And that is going to be a 

multiyear project. It will have to be directed on an interim basis 

by the Government of National Accord for the next year, year and 

a half, whatever the term of its existence, and then by a successor 

government under the new constitution that they will, we hope, 

adopt. 

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you one last question. We are, I 

guess just the way we know things, aware that outside of Sirte, actually out away from the city, there were training camps that had 

thousands of Da’esh people in them, and they were, as I understand it, not near urban populations but out in training camps. 

And we, of course, were waiting for a unity government to be 

formed and did not want to be involved there without that occurring. 

But was there an opportunity missed to do severe damage, if you 

will, to Da’esh while they were out away from Sirte, or was that 

ever the case? 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
23 

Mr. WINER. The United States has some criteria by which it evaluates when it can engage against terrorism. A critical element of 

that criteria is imminent threat to Americans, and there are some 

other components to it but that is a very important one. 

The President has demonstrated his willingness to take action as 

we did against the terrorist training camp in Sabratha in February 

and as we did against the Islamic State amir earlier and as we did 

against another terrorist figure before that. The administration 

continues to be ready to take action when that action is warranted 

by the situation and meets the criteria the President has set for 

such action. That is really all I can say. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I will say then it sounds to me like that 

yes, there was that opportunity, that yes, they were in training 

camps out away from Sirte, and that at the time, we did not feel 

like those conditions that you just described existed, and that in 

the interim, they moved back into the urban areas. But the criteria 

was not there for us to take action, if I am hearing what you are 

saying. 

Mr. WINER. I cannot address the issue further, Senator, other 

than to note that the Islamic State has been very substantially 

pushed back from the geographic control that it had recently as a 

month ago. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Flake? 

Senator FLAKE. No. 

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? [No response.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have anything else you would like to say 

or feel like you might have left an impression you did not want to 

leave because you were cut off? 

Mr. WINER. Mr. Chairman, I think the most important thing I 

want to leave you with is I feel we do have a strategy, and the 

strategy has been to counter fragmentation, to counter chaos by 

working to get Libyans and their neighbors and the region aligned 

in support of a Government of National Accord to operate in a transitional way to unite Libya and to bring them together in the process of reconciliation that will potentially enable Libya to build a 

state that functions on behalf of its people. 

I think the questions you and your colleagues have asked me 

today have been to the point, and I welcome the opportunity to testify before you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you very much for your service to 

our country. 

We are going to leave the record open until the close of business 

Friday. If you would fairly promptly respond to any written questions that will come by the close of business Friday, we would appreciate it. You can respond after they come in, of course. 

As I said in my opening comments—and this certainly is not directed at you in any way. It is directed at our country. I felt like 

our involvement in Libya was very poorly thought out. The legal 

basis that was thrown out by Mr. Koh from Yale was pretty unbelievable to me that we were not involved in hostilities while we 

were bombing the country. So that part to me was very difficult to 

digest. 

And then for us to decapitate a government and just leave it 

there and here we are in the year 2016 after this occurring in 2011 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
24 

I think speaks to what Senator Cardin said, and that is when we 

go into these engagements, we need to at least be thinking 30 days 

out after, and in this case, certainly that what was not occurred. 

And there have been a lot of people tortured, a lot of lives ruined, 

a lot of problems that have been created throughout the region that 

have been very destabilizing and has bled into Europe now. And 

I think we can learn from this. 

It still appears to me that we have a really light touch, very, very 

light touch, in a country that, as Senator Gardner and Senator 

Markey mentioned, could in fact breed problems far greater than 

Syria by some onlookers that are in the neighborhood. So it still 

does not appear to me that we have come together around something that has a sense of urgency or seriousness to it relative to 

the negativity that can occur if Libya fails. 

So I do not know if you want to respond to that or just agree 

with me and wish more was happening. [Laughter.] 

Mr. WINER. Senator, we are doing the best we can. Mr. Chairman, I am doing the best that I can. 

The CHAIRMAN. You know this is not directed at you in any way. 

Mr. WINER. Thank you, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. With that, the meeting is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 

ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD SUBMITTED TO

SPECIAL ENVOY JONATHAN WINER BY SENATOR BOXER

Question 1. Following the ouster of former Libyan President Muammar Qaddafi, 

Libyan authorities did not allow a foreign force to provide for security during 

Libya’s political transition and development a military force. Some U.S. officials 

have asserted that this is one of the reasons for Libya’s current instability. 

Given Libya’s fractious political and military environment, in which competing 

armed groups vie for influence, what efforts are underway to build a national military force under the authority of a Libyan unity government? 

Answer. The United States supports the efforts of Prime Minister al-Sarraj’s government to establish civilian command and control over an inclusive, national Libyan military. We also support PM al-Sarraj’s efforts to build the necessary defense 

institutions required to firmly position a national Libyan military under the authority of a civilian government. These institutions have never existed in Libya. 

Initial headway was made when the Government of National Accord (GNA) announced in April that it would form a joint command to coordinate counter terrorism efforts. It has since formed four regional operations rooms focused on the 

fight against Da’esh and other terrorist groups. The impact of these decisions is already evident on the ground, as GNA-aligned forces have made substantial progress 

against Da’esh in and around its stronghold of Sirte. 

Along with twenty other countries and four international organizations, we affirmed in the May 16 Vienna Communique ́ that the GNA is the sole legitimate recipient of international security assistance to Libya and that the international community will support the GNA by providing security assistance to counter UN-designated terrorist groups and to combat Da’esh throughout the country. By providing 

assistance to forces under the GNA’s command and reinforcing the UN arms embargo to ensure weapons do not go to other groups, we can help empower al-Sarraj to 

bring more elements into the inclusive, civilian-controlled, and geographically-diverse security forces that Libya requires. 

Question 2. How are we currently working with our European and Arab partners 

and allies to facilitate Libya’s transition? Specifically, how are we working to reconcile competing regional support for General Heftar’s forces in the east and the 

Misratan forces in the west? 


FOREI-42327 with DISTILLER
25 

Answer. The United States works closely with the international community, including our European and Arab partners, to support Prime Minister Fayez alSarraj, the Libyan Government of National Accord (GNA), and the efforts of UN 

Special Representative Martin Kobler. Since the GNA entered Tripoli on March 30, 

Prime Minister al-Sarraj has undertaken a series of steps to stabilize the country, 

including measures to form a Presidential Guard, establish a joint command to combat Da’esh, and ensure that ministries and acting ministers can get to work to serve 

the Libyan people, pending formal action by the Libyan parliament. Along with our 

international partners, the United States is supporting Prime Minister al-Sarraj’s 

government as it moves forward with these positive steps. 

At the Vienna Ministerial meeting on Libya on May 16, four international organizations and 21 countries, including the key regional states, reiterated the international community’s commitment to ceasing support to and official contact with 

parallel institutions and to support the GNA as Libya’s sole legitimate recipient of 

international security assistance. We support Prime Minister al-Sarraj’s efforts to 

build an inclusive national security architecture. We are looking at ways in which 

General Haftar and forces under his leadership will integrate within a security 

structure under the GNA’s civilian command and control. 

We urge all Libyan forces to work to enhance coordination and implement a unified command to direct the fight against Da’esh in Libya. We are ready to respond 

to the Libyan government’s requests for training and equipping vetted, GNA-aligned 

forces from throughout Libya. The UN arms embargo allows for the GNA to request 

the weapons it needs to secure the country and to combat Da’esh. The GNA has 

voiced its intention to submit appropriate arms embargo exemption requests to the 

UN Libya Sanctions Committee to procure necessary lethal arms and materiel to 

counter UN-designated terrorist groups and to combat Da’esh throughout the country. We will fully support these exemption efforts while continuing to reinforce the 

UN arms embargo. 

Question. Following the withdrawal of U.S. personnel from Libya, the United 

States suspended the majority of its security assistance programs for Libya. 

Moving forward, what options is the United States considering for near-term security assistance for Libya? What conditions need to be in place to resume security 

assistance programs in Libya? 

Answer. Supporting Libya’s Government of National Accord (GNA) and its capacity to address Libya’s economic, humanitarian, and security challenges is essential 

to advancing U.S. national security and stability objectives throughout the Maghreb, 

Sahel, and Mediterranean regions. In coordination with the UN and other partners, 

U.S. engagement in Libya remains focused on helping Libya’s political transition 

produce a legitimate, accountable, and effective national government. U.S. government support remains essential to strengthening Libya’s democratic, governance, 

and security institutions, thereby supporting stability and regional security. As we 

are already seeing, a strong 

GNA partner is critical to counter Da’esh effectively. 

The United States is prepared to provide security assistance to Libya as part of 

international efforts, including border security, counterterrorism, rule of law, countering violent extremism, clearing unexploded ordnance, criminal justice reform, and 

securing conventional weapons. As the GNA becomes more established, we will continue to examine programs opportunities to determine the appropriate size and 

scope. We are also exploring how we can use existing U.S. programs to contribute 

to training and equipping GNA forces, in response to requests from Prime Minister 

al-Sarraj. 

We appreciate the $20 million Congress provided for assistance to Libya in FY 

2016, which will enable us to respond quickly to current andemerging needs. Our 

foreign assistance funding allows the United States to join other donor countries 

who are leading stabilization and security efforts. For example, we intend to contribute up to $4 million to the UNDP-led Stabilization Fund for Libya (SFL), subject 

to Congressional approval, which will provide support for small-scale infrastructure 

projects, and we look forward to working with you when we notify these funds. 

Our FY 2017 assistance request for Libya is $20.5 million and we expect targeted 

opportunities for new programming in FY 2017. Our FY 2017 request will support 

programs to increase security and counterterrorism capabilities while creating a 

more inclusive and human rights-respecting national government. U.S. foreign assistance funds will build Libyan governance capacity, which is crucial to stopping 

the spread of terrorist groups. 

Æ 


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