1



### UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 1


### Framework Public Meeting for Computer & Battery 2



### Backup Systems 3

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5

6


### United States Department of Energy 7

8



### 1000 Independence Avenue Southwest 9



### Room 8E

- 089 10


### Washington, DC 20585 11

12



### 9 : 11 to 2 : 43 p.m. 13



### Thursday, July 31 , 201 4 14

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### Speakers: 1



### DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions 2



### JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy 3



### JEREMY DOMMU, Department of Energy 4



### CELIA SHER, Department of Energy 5



### BACH TSAN, Southern California Edison 6



### ROBERT WHITE, Dell 7



### JAY TAYLO R, Schneider Electric 8



### MATT MALINOWSKI, ICF 9



### SHAHID SHEIKH, Intel 10



### MARK SHARP, Panasonic 11



### DOUG JOHNSON, Consumer Electronics Association 12


### ERICA LOGAN, Information Technology Industry 13



### Council 14



### SAMEER KWATRA, ACEEE 15



### ANTHONY FRYER, ASAP 16



### JOSEPH ANDERS EN, TIA 17



### LOUIS

- BENOIT DESROCHES, Lawrence Berkley Lab 18


### ALLEN TSAO, Navigant Consulting 19


### MANSI THAKKAR, Navigant Consulting 20



### ALEX BOESENBERG, NEMA 21



### CHUCK FOSTER, EEI 22

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### MONICA DEAN, APPA 1


### Speakers continued: 2



### DON BRUNDAGE, Southern Company 3



### JIM SPITAE LS, Schneider Electric 4



### TIM BALLO, Earth Justice 5



### CRAIG STEPHENS, LG 6



### MARK HOLLENBECK, Hewlett Packard 7



### DONNA SADOWY, AMD 8

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1



### P R O C E E D I N G S 2


### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's begin. We're still 3



### awai ti ng the web to be fully

-- 4



### CO URT REPORTER: We've got it. 5


### MR. BROOKMAN: We got it? 6


### COURT REPORTER: We're just going to test 7



### it. Yes. 8


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's begin. Good 9


### morning, everyone. Welcome. This is the U.S. 10


### Department of Energy's Framework Public Meeting 11



### for Computer and Battery Backup Systems. 12


### Today is Thursday, July 31st, 2014, here 13


### in the Forrestal Building in Washington, D.C. My 14


### name is Doug Brookman from Public Solutions of 15



### Baltimore. 16


### So nice to see you this morning. 17


### Apologies for a very brief delay at the o utset 18


### here this morning. We're going to start with 19


### welcoming remarks from Jeremy Dommu. 20


### MR. DOMMU: Hi, everyone. Hi, everyone. 21


### I'm Jeremy Dommu. I am the project manager in 22

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### the U.S. Department of Energy's Appliance 1


### Standards Program. I'm responsible for 2


### overseeing the rule making activities as we begin 3


### the process to consider test procedures and 4



### conservation standards for computers and battery 5



### back up systems. 6


### I thank you all very much for coming 7


### today, for your interest in this proceeding, and 8



### for you r continued feedback and participation as 9


### we advance through this process. So I will leave 10


### it at that for now, but you will be hearing much 11


### more from me as today's meeting proceeds. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Let's start 13


### with introductions as we typically do. To my 14


### immediate left, your name and organization 15


### affiliation. You can get used to turning these 16


### microphones both on and off, please. 17


### MR. ANDERSEN: Joseph Andersen with the 18


### the Telecommunications Industry Association. 19


### MR. FRYER: Anthony Fryer with the 20


### Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 21



### MR. KWATRA: Sameer Kwatra with the 22

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### American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. 1


### MS. LOGAN: Good morning. Erica Logan 2


### with the Information Technology Industry Council. 3


### MR. JOHNSON: I'm Doug Johnson with th e 4



### Consumer Electronics Association. 5



### MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 6



### Company. 7


### MR. SHARP: Mark Sharp with Panasonic. 8



### MR. SHEIKH: Shahid Sheikh, Intel 9


### Corporation. 10



### MR. MALINOWSKI: Matt Malinowski with ICF 11


### International representing EPA ENERGY STAR

. 12



### M R. TAYLOR: Jay Taylor with Schneider 13



### Electric. 14



### MR. WHITE: Robert White with Dell. 15



### MR. TSAN: Bach Tsan Southern California 16


### Edison representing the California Investor Owned 17



### Ut i l it ies. 18


### MS. SHER: Celia Sher, Department of 19


### Energy, General Counsel's Office. 20



### MR. DOMMU: Jeremy Dommu, U.S. Department 21



### of Energy. 22

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### MR. TSAO: Allen Tsao, Navigant 1


### Consulting. 2



### MS. THAKKAR : Mansi Thakkar with Navigant 3


### Consulting. 4



### MR. DESROCHES: Louis Desroches, Lawrence 5



### Berkeley Lab. 6



### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earth Justice. 7



### COURT REPOR TER: I didn't hear that. I 8



### need you by a mic. 9



### MR. BALLO: (Inaudible.)**2.52 .1 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: We’ll get your business 11


### card, so we just stand up and speak, that will be 12



### sufficient. 13



### MR. BOESENGBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 14



### National Electrical Manufacturer's As sociation, 15



### NEMA. 16


### MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster representing 17



### Edison Electric Institute. 18



### MS. DEAN: Monica Dean, the American 19



### Public Power Association. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks to all 21


### of you. Glad to see you this morning. All of 22

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### you received a packe t of information when you 1


### came in this morning. I'm going to do a very 2


### brief agenda review. 3


### Immediately following these items, the 4


### agenda review, ground rules, and a few 5


### preliminary slides, there's an opportunity for 6


### anybody that wishes to, to make open ing remarks. 7


### Brief summary statements about issues that are 8


### important to you. Please feel free to engage in 9



### that segment. 10


### Immediately following that we're going to 11


### have a brief rule making overview description. 12


### Moving on from there a scope of rule maki ng 13


### description. Throughout you will

-- there's an 14


### opportunity to comment on all the slides that are 15


### in this packet. 16


### We'll take a break midmorning, around 17


### about 11:00 or so. Following the midmorning 18



### break

, test procedure rule making. We'll take 19



### lunch aro und about noon, whenever we get there. 20


### Following lunch, market and technology 21


### and screening analysis and then engineering 22

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### analysis and the markups, energy use, and life 1


### cycle cost analysis. We'll take a break mid

2


### afternoon and then following the mid

- aft ernoon 3


### break or whenever we arrive at that point, 4


### shipments analysis and national impact analysis, 5


### next steps, and closing remarks. 6


### Questions and comments about the agenda? 7


### Seeing none I'd ask for your 8


### consideration on the first page of your packet, 9



### you can see some suggested ground rules there. 10


### Please, if you would, speak one at a time and if 11


### you would say your name for the record each time 12



### you speak you can

-- it's your choice whether you 13


### want to say your organization affiliation or not. 14



### There will b e a complete transcript of 15


### this meeting. If you could try to be concise, 16



### share the airtime, there's a lot to be said, 17



### there's a lot of content here. Keep the focus 18


### here. If your cell phones are not on silent at 19


### this point please put them on silent and l imit 20


### sidebar conversations. All of you have gotten 21


### used to turning these microphones on and off at 22

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### this point. 1


### Webinar participants, we welcome you. 2


### The Department of Energy is trying hard to make 3


### these meetings totally accessible via the web. 4



### If you'd keep your telephones on mute, and you 5


### can raise your hand in the software provided to 6


### be recognized to speak. And typically that 7


### works. We can hear you in the room. So we will 8


### have you join the conversation once I recognize 9



### you. 10



### I'll cover the housekeep ing items as we 11


### need to, as we're going along during the day. 12


### And we have a few more preliminary slides. 13



### Jeremy Dommu. 14



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Great. So

-- 15



### COURT REPORTER: Mic. 16


### MR. DOMMU: Great. So this is Jeremy. 17


### So the purpose of today's public meeting , on July 18


### 17th we put out a notice that was published in 19


### the Federal Register that announced today's 20


### meeting and also announced the availability of 21



### the framework document for computer and battery 22

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### backup systems. 1


### Essentially the framework document 2



### describes the procedural and the analytical 3


### approaches that we anticipate using as we 4


### evaluate potential new energy conservation 5



### standards and test procedures for computer and 6



### battery backup systems. 7



### We introduce a number of initial 8


### considerations and things that D OE is considering 9


### related to this rule making, including 10


### definitions and scope, and test procedures that 11


### we welcome comment on at today's public meeting, 12


### and during the forthcoming comment period. 13


### I definitely make the point that today's 14


### meeting and the fr amework document really is a 15


### starting point for evaluating conservation 16



### standards for computer and battery backup 17


### systems. It's not a definite statement at all of 18


### any issue that has yet to be determined in the 19


### rule making. 20


### We really are just bringing up i ssues so 21


### we could begin the conversation as we initialize 22

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### and initiate the rulemaking activity for these 1



### products. 2


### So, that is pretty much the purpose. We 3


### will go through a lot of material today that 4


### describes some of the areas that we're seeking 5



### comment on, and we will spend a good deal of time 6


### as well as talking about all the analysis and the 7


### analytical approach that we intend to follow as 8



### we consider conservation standards and test 9



### procures for these products. 10



### That's pretty much the purpose. We have 11



### t he agenda here, which we've already gone 12



### through. Do you need to go over any of the 13



### webcast details? 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: There's one small detail. 15



### It's not a small detail; in fact it's an 16


### important detail. All stakeholders are 17


### encouraged to submit written co mments, including 18


### those that are joining us via the web. I want to 19


### make sure that they submit comments to the 20



### Department as well. 21


### MR. DOMMU: Right. Originally written 22

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### comments were to have been due by September 2nd; 1


### however DOE has recently received and has granted 2


### a request to extend the comment deadline for this 3


### rulemaking. We issued that notice just a few 4



### days ago . It will likely publish in the Federal 5


### Register next week. But essentially it announces 6


### that we are granting an additional 30 days. 7



### Com ments will now be due through October 2nd. So 8



### there's still about two more months before 9



### comments are due on this framework document. 10


### MR. BROOKMAN: The Department is 11


### accommodating peoples' desire to take a vacation. 12



### In part, perhaps. 13



### Okay . That is th e bulk of the 14


### preliminary stuff. One more thing that I would 15


### call your attention to, which is on slide 6 of 16


### your packet, you will see throughout this 17


### presentation of material, these issue boxes. 18



### These issue boxes are intended to elicit 19


### specific comment on the issues that are included 20


### in the box. And you can also see the docket, the 21


### docket listing there at the bottom of slide 6. 22

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### So then back to Jeremy Dommu. 1


### MR. DOMMU: Do we want to do opening 2



### remarks at this time

-- 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 4



### MR. DOMMU:

-- b efore I begin with the 5


### rulemaking overview? 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah. So now, as 7


### we said, opening remarks here at the outset. 8



### Alex Boesenberg. 9



### MR. BOESENGBERG: I'm Alex Boesenberg, 10


### speaking on behalf of NEMA and manufacture r s of 11


### my power electronics se ctions who provide 12


### uninterruptable power supplies, which have been 13


### proposed as part of the scope of this rulemaking. 14


### First we, as always, thank the DOE for 15


### holding this meeting today and offering everyone 16


### the opportunity to collaborate and comment. 17



### We wou ld like to also recognize and thank 18



### the DOE for its consideration of our comments to 19


### the notice of proposed determination, which we 20



### can see reflected in the framework, particularly 21


### as pertains to using the IEC test procedure for 22

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### UPS efficiency calculations , and also the 1



### consideration the DOE showed in using the 2



### National Electrical Code and other facets of 3


### design to help clarify what is a consumer UPS, 4


### things like 120 volt operation, three

- prong plug, 5


### and a power consumption consistent with the 6



### standard wall plug one would find in a home. 7


### We also, in that vein, want to point out 8


### today and we'll also point out in our comments, 9


### the continuing need for clarity regarding a 10


### consumer UPS with respect to the fact that as we 11


### have interpreted the battery chargers rule making, 12



### these consumer UPSs are also in scope of that 13



### rule. 14



### So we assume the DOE will not have one 15


### product and two different regulations, so there 16


### is a need in this rule, considering this is the 17


### one that happens to be moving at the time, to 18



### draw a distinct ion between the consumer UPSs and 19



### the computer systems rule, and any other UPS that 20


### are part of the battery chargers rulemaking 21



### scope. Thank you. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, your 1



### name, please? 2


### MR. FRYER: Anthony Fryer with the 3


### Appliance Standards Aw areness Project. I would 4


### just like join Alex in thanking DOE for hosting 5


### this meeting. We support DOE's initiation of 6


### this process. We think the consumption of 7


### computer systems as laid out in the DOE framework 8


### document is significant and contains what s eems 9


### to be a lot of variation in energy consumption 10



### between products. 11


### While the computer market is changing and 12


### will continue to change in the coming years, we 13


### believe that desktops and laptops will certainly 14


### continue to consume significant amounts of ener gy 15



### for the foreseeable future. 16



### We do have a handful of key concerns that 17


### we want to raise today in terms of their product 18


### definitions. We think they're using ENERGY STAR 19



### as part of the

-- using the ENERGY STAR 20


### definitions is a good starting point, but we 21



### think we need to look at these definitions more 22

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### from a regulatory lens and I'll be more specific 1


### about that when definitions come up in the 2



### agenda. 3


### In terms of the product categories, we 4



### believe that these need to be as broad and 5


### inclusive as possible to h elp ensure the 6


### longevity and relevance of any standards that 7


### come out of this rulemaking, especially given the 8


### five year implementation time. 9



### And then finally in terms of the 10


### technology analysis we'll have some additional 11


### suggestions to add to DOE's list t hat was in the 12


### framework document and we'll raise these again at 13


### the appropriate time in the agenda and in the 14



### written comments. 15


### So just to conclude we look forward to 16


### working with DOE and stakeholders throughout this 17


### process in the hopes that we can deve lop an 18


### effective and meaningful standards for this 19



### product category. 20


### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Additional 21



### comments here at the outset, Don Brundage. 22

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### MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 1


### Company. First thing is procedural. The notice 2


### of this meeting cam e out barely 14 days ago, 3


### which was not time to get advantageous airfare 4


### into Washington if you're not in the D.C. area. 5


### This has been a persistent pattern on recent 6


### rulemakings where there is insufficient notice 7


### given and it really serves to limit parti c i pation 8



### for those stakeholders who are not in the D.C. 9



### area. 10



### You don't have to have the full 11


### documentation, but I am sure you knew that this 12


### room was being scheduled for this more than 13


### before the 17th of July. And if some sort of 14



### notice, there is the exis ting e

- mail system of 15


### future rulemakings, et cetera. Please do a 16


### better job in the future of notifying us of when 17


### dates are going to

-- when hearings are going to 18



### occur. 19


### More general comment is looking at your 20



### regulatory authority; DOE has authority to 21



### re gulate it if it chooses. The regulatory 22

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### language is all, "Has authority. May regulate. 1


### Not required." 2



### And I feel that this is somewhat 3


### regulatory overreach using rather optimistic 4


### assumptions as far as energy use, and then 5


### putting some functionally very different products 6


### mixed in with the computer equipment, such as 7


### battery backup uninterruptable power supplies, 8


### which have some difficult overlaps with some 9


### other rulemakings. 10


### The big thing to me is you have limited 11


### resources and it seems like every year there is 12


### another mandated rule making required of you. I 13


### would rather, with your limited resources, you 14


### put the energy into doing a better job on the 15


### products that you are required to issue rule 16


### makings on. You have very little discretion on 17



### that because of the consent decree with the 18


### energy efficiency advocates and other issues. 19



### But there is some real issues on some of 20



### the other rule makings. In particular there is 21


### assumptions on energy use that have never really 22

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### been tested on some consumer products, an d I 1



### would rather

-- at a minimum I would like to see 2


### this rulemaking limited to a specific product 3


### under a test procedure that can get 150 kilowatt 4



### hours per year. 5


### If you start talking about batteries and 6



### these

-- I just don't see that that is the same 7



### pro duct for the 150 kilowatt hours rule as a 8



### computer. Thank you. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Doug. 10


### MR. JOHNSON: Doug Johnson with CEA. 11


### This is more of a suggestion than an opening 12


### statement or comment, but it's process related 13


### like the previous speakers. 14



### I 've been to a few of these public 15


### meetings, as some in the room have as well, and I 16


### wonder if the best time for an all day public 17


### meeting such as this is after stakeholders have 18


### filed comments. And the reason I say that is 19



### because at that time stakeholder s obviously have 20


### a concrete idea of what they've said and what 21


### they've argued and presented in those comments, 22

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### and could even elaborate upon those comments in a 1


### public meeting. 2


### However, at this stage, other than 3


### clarifying the DOE's process and the issues for 4



### which it's seeking comment, I imagine that 5


### there's not much to be said or offered by many at 6


### this stage as opposed to later, after we make our 7


### filings. So just a suggestion in terms of timing 8


### and positioning. Perhaps today's overview could 9



### be an hour of clarifying questions and then the 10



### in

- depth contribution and two

- way discussion 11



### could be better had later. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13



### MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. 14


### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Doug. Erica? 15


### MS. LOGAN: Yes. Good morning. Erica 16


### Logan with ITI. I to o would like to thank the 17


### DOE for having this meeting and would like to 18


### echo Doug's recommendation from a process 19


### standpoint. And I'll limit my comments to three 20



### very short summary statements. 21


### But first as a quick introduction, ITI 22

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### represents the leading global innovators of 1


### information and communications technology, and 2


### industry committed to developing energy efficient 3


### solutions, meeting customer demands, while also 4


### driving sustainable economic growth and energy 5


### independence across our nation's economy. 6



### T hree brief statements. Personal 7



### computers, servers, and battery backup systems 8


### provide very different functions, have very 9



### different intended uses, and are not 10


### interchangeable in the marketplace. 11


### Consequently, we believe it is not appropriate to 12



### group th ese products together as, quote, 13



### "Computer systems." 14



### Second, servers and UPSs are 15


### institutional commercial products that are not 16


### present in commerce to any significant extent for 17


### personal use or consumption, and average energy 18


### consumption per household, pe r year, is well 19



### below 100 kilowatt hours. 20


### And third, the value of DOE regulating 21


### personal computers under current statute is 22

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### highly questionable. Particularly given the 1


### market transformative success of voluntary 2



### programs such as ENERGY STAR . But neverthe less 3


### industry welcomes the opportunity to work with 4



### the DOE and other stakeholders on other 5


### opportunities for advancing sound national energy 6


### policy. Thank you. 7


### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Additional 8


### opening remarks? Yes, please, Joseph. 9



### MR. ANDERSEN: Ye ah. Joseph Andersen 10



### with TIA. 11



### First of I wanted to thank the DOE for 12


### holding this meeting. And then also their 13



### efforts within the framework document to signal 14



### what products are actually covered under the 15


### rulemaking. We represent a range of companies 16



### f rom, you know, consumer to commercial companies 17


### that are selling products to service providers. 18


### And the initial proposed scope was so 19


### impossibly broad we would have had to fill this 20



### room with 200, 300 different manufacturers. And 21


### so we appreciate the ef fort to narrow the scope. 22

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### We still have concerns about scope and 1


### definitions and we'll be providing those in our 2



### written comments. But that's all for now. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Any 4


### additional comments here at this point? 5


### Okay, then, we're goi ng to move to the 6


### presentation material. I see Jeremy is at the 7


### podium and I also invite anybody joining us via 8


### the web that wishes to make a brief opening 9



### statement to do so. 10


### Nothing. Okay. Jeremy. 11



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Great. Thank you all 12



### very much for those opening comments. We are 13


### going to begin this next section of the meeting 14


### with an overview of the rulemaking process that 15


### we will intend to follow as we begin this 16


### rulemaking to consider test procedures and 17


### conservation standards for these product t ypes. 18



### This first slide that I have here shows 19


### the different stages of a rule mak ing. In a 20



### traditional DOE rule making there are a number of 21


### documents, publications, that are put out for 22

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### public comment where each

-- after each one there 1


### is an opportunity for interested stakeholders to 2


### attend a public meeting to make all statements on 3


### the record, and a written comment period to 4



### submit written comments to the docket. 5


### So the rulemaking process beings with a 6


### framework document, which is what is the subject 7



### of tod ay's meeting and was put out earlier this 8



### month. And then moves on to another stage, the 9


### preliminary analysis. And I will get into all of 10


### these stages in more detail. 11


### In the preliminary analysis we would 12



### respond to all comments from the framework. 13



### Aft er our preliminary analysis we would have a 14


### notice of proposed rule where we actually propose 15


### a test procedure or a conservation standard. I 16


### would note that we would have a separate notice 17


### of proposed rulemaking proposing a test procedure 18



### and then another notice of proposed rulemaking 19



### that would propose the conservation standard. So 20


### at that point we would separate the rulemaking 21


### into proposing a test procedure for computer and 22

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### battery backup systems. And then later on in the 1


### rulemaking process we would h ave a notice of 2


### proposed rulemaking that actually would propose 3


### the conservation standards for the products that 4


### were in the scope. 5


### Finally, after receiving comments on the 6


### notice of proposed rule we would move on to a 7



### final rule, which is the last stage i n the 8


### rulemaking process where we adopt what is 9


### ultimately proposed, we respond to comments, and 10



### we may make any necessary changes or updates to 11


### the analysis that supports the proposed levels. 12



### So the framework document is what kicks 13


### it off as we've already discussed what the 14


### purpose is, is to really describe the overall 15


### approach that DOE is considering as we develop 16


### potential test procedures and conservation 17



### standards. 18


### We hold the public meeting, like we're 19


### doing today, and we really encourage stakeholder s 20



### to submit data information and written comments. 21


### There's overall this rulemaking process really 22

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### works the best when we have as much active 1


### participation, when stakeholders really cooperate 2


### by providing us with relevant data and 3



### information and written c omments. That really is 4


### the driving force behind designing and 5


### considering regulation in this area. 6



### So the next step in the rulemaking is 7


### actually optional. We may not do this for all 8


### rulemakings. In some cases we go from a 9


### framework directly to a notic e of proposed 10


### rulemaking. In other cases before we do a notice 11


### of proposed rulemaking we do what is called a 12


### preliminary analysis where we actually use it to 13



### vet some of the models and tools that we would 14



### intend to use. 15


### This really relates more to the 16



### c onservation standard side of the rulemaking 17



### where we would make available some of the 18


### analysis that supports and analyzes different 19


### standard levels that we're considering. So we 20


### may consider multiple different standards for all 21


### of the different types of p roducts that would be 22

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### covered in a rulemaking. And in the preliminary 1


### analysis we would release that analysis that 2



### shows some of the engineering and economic 3


### analysis for each of the candidate standard 4


### levels that we are considering. It does not 5



### propose what standard level is, but it really 6


### just puts out some of our data. 7


### If we don't do this step, if we go 8


### directly to

-- we may directly do a notice of 9


### proposed rule. Occasionally we have used other 10


### techniques as well. We could do a notice of data 11



### availab ility which may not be as comprehensive as 12


### a preliminary analysis, but it may put out some 13



### of the data that supports our rule and allows 14



### written comment on them. 15


### So again, that's the preliminary analysis 16



### stage. 17



### We would then move on to a notice of 18



### prop osed rulemaking stage which addresses the 19


### comments that were received on the preliminary 20


### analysis and we actually then would propose the 21


### test procedure or the conservation standard and 22

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### present all the analysis as it relates to 1



### consumers and manufacture r s a nd nations and what 2


### the impact of the conservation standard would be, 3



### or what the actual test procedure would be. 4


### Again, those standards are up for public comment. 5



### Once we review all the comments that are 6



### received from the NOPR we often could move on to 7



### t he final rule which addresses all of those 8



### comments from the NOPR. There are occasions 9


### where instead of moving directly from a NOPR to a 10


### final rule the written comments compel DOE to 11


### provide a new opportunity to provide comments if 12



### DOE wishes to make subs tantial changes to the 13


### original proposal, we could issue what is called 14


### a supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking , or 15


### an SNOPR that has a new proposal, and with that 16


### would come a new comment opportunity for 17


### stakeholders to provide new comments. 18



### But whet her there is an SNOPR or not, at 19


### some point we would move on to the final rule 20


### stage of the rulemaking which finalizes and 21


### establishes mandatory minimum efficiency 22

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### standards, the compliance date , or if it was a 1


### final rule for a test procedure would adopt t he 2


### test procedure which would be then used when 3


### making representations of the energy efficiency 4


### or energy consumption of the products that are 5


### within scope of that test procedure. 6



### So on the standards side, EPCA, which is 7


### the Energy Policy and Conservation Act, directs 8


### DOE to consider several factors when considering 9


### energy conservation standards. 10



### We consider these factors because DOE, 11


### when prescribing conservation standards for 12



### consumer products, those standards must be 13


### designed to achieve the maximum impro vement in 14


### energy efficiency that is technologically 15


### feasible and economically justified and results 16


### in significant conservation of energy. 17


### So when making the determination if a 18


### conservation standard is in fact economically 19


### justified we use these seven fact ors. And these 20


### seven factors are the economic impact on 21



### consumers and manufacture r s, the comparison of 22

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### lifetime operating cost savings versus any 1


### increased cost to the product. We look at the 2


### total projected energy savings, the impact on 3


### utility or perfo rmance of the products that are 4


### being regulated, the impact of any lessening of 5


### competition, the need for national energy 6


### conservation, and then finally any other factors 7


### that the secretary considers relevant. 8



### In order to consider these factors we 9



### have man y different types of analysis that we do. 10



### And as the day proceeds today we will cover these 11



### analyses and what we do to consider these seven 12



### factors that EPCA directs DOE to consider in the 13


### rulemaking process. 14


### So what I just described to you is what 15



### we cal l the standard rulemaking process. It's 16



### sometimes referred to as notice and comment, 17


### where we put out a notice and we receive comment, 18


### we hold these public meetings and we move 19



### forward. 20


### There are other rulemaking options that 21



### stakeholders may pursue as an alternative to this 22

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### traditional approach. 1


### So these options would be a negotiated 2


### rulemaking. And what a negotiated rulemaking is 3



### would be a series of meetings that would occur 4


### with a select group of stakeholders that fairly 5


### represent the relevant poi nts of view. These 6


### parties, together with DOE would have many 7


### different public meetings that would ultimately 8


### result, hopefully in a consensus of what the 9



### proposed rule should be. So these negotiated 10


### meetings would be likely similar to this where we 11



### coul d get together in a public forum, negotiate 12



### what a rule would be, and then if we have 13



### consensus then we would continue on with the 14


### rulemaking process, beginning with a notice of 15


### proposed rulemaking. 16



### So if there is interest from stakeholders 17


### to do a negotia tion as opposed to DOE doing the 18


### NOPR on our own, that is something that we 19


### certainly would be open to considering if 20


### stakeholders want to get more involved in the 21



### process. 22

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### If we do a negotiation we would still do 1


### a notice of proposed rulemaking, that wo uld 2


### include all the analysis that EPCA directs us to 3


### do and the rulemaking would proceed from then on. 4


### We would likely presume that if 5


### stakeholders agree to what the notice of proposed 6


### rulemaking should be before it actually is 7


### publicized and proposed, that there wouldn't need 8


### to be as much public comment. But we certainly 9



### would welcome all comment on that notice of 10


### proposed rulemaking, just like we would if there 11


### was not a negotiated rule. 12


### The other option is called a consensus 13


### agreement. And this may not or does not include 14


### DOE participation. And this is submitted jointly 15


### by interested parties that fairly represent the 16


### relevant points of view. 17


### And with a consensus agreement 18


### stakeholders on their own could get together and 19


### ultimately present DOE, th is is what we think the 20



### conservation standard level should be for this 21


### product, and DOE could then consider those. 22

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### Both of those cases DOE would still do 1


### analysis to ensure that those standard levels 2


### would conform with EPCA. They'd ultimately be 3



### proposed and they would be added to the Code of 4


### Federal Regulation. 5


### An option I guess with either one of them 6



### is what is called a direct final rule. A direct 7


### final rule is instead of proposing the NOPR and 8


### receiving comments and then doing a final rule. 9



### What we c ould do is we would propose

-- we would 10



### do a notice of proposed rulemaking and a final 11



### rule would be issued at the same exact time, and 12



### the final rule would be called a Direct Final 13



### Rule and it would expedite the process in a way. 14



### However, if there are com ments that are 15


### received, any adverse comments that are received 16


### on the notice of proposed rulemaking, that 17


### provide a reasonable basis for withdrawing the 18



### direct final rule, the DOE could withdraw that 19


### direct final rule and then we would just carry on 20



### with what we proposed as the notice of proposed 21


### rulemaking. 22

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### As a final option we could do what we 1



### refer to as a non

- regulatory agreement, which 2


### would not result in regulatory conservation 3



### standards. This could occur if manufacture r s on 4


### their own agree with oth er relevant parties on 5


### improving the efficiency of the products and 6


### present that as an alternative option for DOE to 7


### consider in lieu of regulatory standards. 8


### We recently had success with set

- top 9


### boxes in pursuit of a non

- regulatory agreement 10



### that had th e full support of advocates, 11



### government, and manufacture r s, and service 12


### providers. 13


### So those are those different options. We 14


### did a negotiated rulemaking, one just wrapping up 15


### I believe, with pumps. One was done with 16



### distributed transformers. A consensus agreement 17


### a few years ago was done with clothes washers and 18


### dishwashers and I think refrigerators, if I'm 19



### correct. 20



### So those are some other alternatives that 21


### we could consider. I believe that brings us to 22

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### the end of the rulemaking overview slide, but I 1



### wou ld be happy to open it up for any comment at 2


### this point, or questions at all on the rulemaking 3



### process. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Joseph. 5


### MR. ANDERSEN: So just to confirm. On 6


### the preliminary analysis step that you're 7


### proposing between the framework and the NOP R, 8


### that is something at this point that you would 9


### intend to include? It's listed as optional, but 10


### you are intending on using that in this

-- 11



### MR. DOMMU: I don't think we've reached a 12


### full decision on that at this point. It depends 13



### on

-- I mean, if we pur sue one of these other 14


### rulemaking options it might not

-- we might not 15



### need to do that. Once we get more data that's 16


### involved we could make the decision internally 17


### whether or not that's a step in the rulemaking 18


### process that we plan on pursuing. But I wou ldn't 19


### say at this time that we're definitely planning 20


### on doing it, but I wouldn't say we're not either. 21



### MR. ANDERSEN: Okay. Because that was 22

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### just the one thing on the bullet and the 1


### presentation, it says optional step DOE may use 2



### to vet the models and to ols that DOE intends to 3


### use in rulemaking. 4



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 5



### MR. ANDERSEN: So that's not correct, 6


### where it's saying that DOE intends to use it in 7


### the rulemaking? That's referring

-- 8


### MR. DOMMU: Well, that's referring to the 9



### models and tools. 10



### MR. ANDER SEN: Okay. 11


### MR. DOMMU: So instead of proposing them 12


### in the NOPR for public comment and it's an actual 13


### proposal, we could put some of the analysis out 14


### in a preliminary analysis that does not actually 15



### have a proposal so we could get feedback on some 16



### of the analysis as we've performed before we 17


### actually propose it. 18



### MR. ANDERSEN: Okay. Thanks. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please? 20



### MR. KWATRA: Sameer Kwatra. Sameer 21



### Kwatra, ACEEE

. 22

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### Just so that we are in the right frame of 1


### mind for today's discussion, is there an est imate 2


### that DOE can give us based on the traditional 3


### approach and previous rulemakings, or just a 4


### timeframe we are thinking of when the final rule 5



### comes into effect? Just an estimate? 6



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, I mean, that's a good 7


### question. I mean, the rulemakin g process does 8



### take some time. I think as previously mentioned 9


### in some of the opening comments there, there are 10


### no statutory deadlines for when this rule has to 11


### be completed by. Obviously we plan on pursuing 12


### it in as timely fashion as possible. But we 13



### h aven't actually drawn out a schedule of what 14


### specific dates we're aiming for, for all these 15


### different steps. It really depends on the amount 16


### of time it takes to do analysis, the quality of 17


### the feedback and comments that are provided by 18



### interested stakehol ders, you know, whether or not 19


### we do some of these different steps. 20


### But generally speaking from past 21


### experience with other rules, provided there is no 22

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### unforeseen delays, it could take a year or two to 1



### complete a lot of these analyses , go through the 2



### publ ic comment periods, draft the notices, do the 3


### analysis. So it could be a year or two process 4



### before a final rule is issued. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Erica? 6



### MS. LOGAN: Jeremy, could you also 7


### clarify that once the final rule is issued, EPCA 8


### requires a five year comp liance period before it 9



### can become effective? 10



### MS. SHER: And this is Celia Sher. I can 11


### answer that question. 12


### We're currently looking into the 13


### compliance date right now. And so if you submit 14



### your comment we should be able to respond to that 15



### and have a bet ter idea at the next stage of the 16


### rulemaking. 17


### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Additional 18


### questions on the timeframes here? Erica? 19


### MS. LOGAN: one more. Could a negotiated 20


### rule be faster than a traditional rulemaking 21



### process? 22

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### MR. DOMMU: I mean, it depends o n how 1


### long the negotiation takes. But certainly you 2


### could, you know, skip some of these steps. But 3


### you know, it ultimately, a negotiated rule would 4



### either

-- could result in doing a notice of 5


### proposed rulemaking that is subject to comment, 6



### and then a fin al rule. 7


### So I don't know if the process at all is 8



### longer or shorter. It very well could be. It 9


### might be longer. It really depends on how long 10


### those negotiations take. 11



### MS. LOGAN: And as a follow

- up , you know, 12


### Celia, is it subject to the same five year l ag in 13



### terms of when it could become effective? 14



### MS. SHER: And that's what we're also 15


### working to figure out right now. 16



### MS. LOGAN: Great. Thank you. 17



### MS. SHER: Uh

- huh. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: I can say from my recent 19


### experience with the commercial and industrial 20



### pu mps negotiated rulemaking that there was some 21


### time to set that up, there was some time to 22

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### select the members of the working group. But the 1


### actual negotiation was for about six months. 2



### Yeah. 3


### And DOE and their analytic team had to 4


### really go into overdrive to accommodate all the 5



### work that was done. But they were very 6


### successful at doing that and that negotiated 7


### rulemaking resulted in a unanimous agreement 8


### among all the parties. 9



### MS. LOGAN: Thank you for that. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Joseph? 11


### MR. ANDERSEN: And just as to the process 12


### of this. So we have three different categories. 13


### I mean, the industrial pumps is an example of 14


### like a single function. You know, that wouldn't 15



### be as complex to work through. Here we have 16


### computers, servers, which are the technological 17


### equivalent to some degree of a set

- top box, and 18



### UPSs , a lot of which are commercial. 19


### And so I guess what I'm wondering with 20



### these other, you know, non

- rulemaking options or 21


### alternatives, how would that proceed? Like would 22

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### the DOE

-- I mean, have we thoug ht through that 1


### yet in terms of like, would you want them all to 2



### move forward together, because I'm not sure

-- 3


### we're not sure on the rulemaking level how to 4


### move those three forward together at this point. 5


### And so I'm curious the thought on that with a 6



### co nsensus agreement. If that was what that would 7



### consist of. Because the set

- top box agreement, 8


### it was mostly set

- top box companies. But this 9


### you'd be bringing in all the computer companies, 10


### you'd be bringing in all the server companies, 11


### you'd be bringing in all the UPS companies, and 12


### trying to get them to agree on something all 13



### together. 14



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 15


### MR. ANDERSEN: It's strange. It's just, 16


### it's a difficult way to move forward, I guess is 17


### what I'm saying. 18


### MS. LOGAN: Or, Joseph, just the computer 19


### companies if we

-- 20



### MR. ANDERSEN: Just the computer 21


### companies. 22

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### MS. LOGAN: That's always appropriate. 1



### MR. ANDERSEN: So I guess that's what I'm 2


### thinking in terms of process. Like, I appreciate 3


### the example of like a single function device, but 4



### when you hav e these very different type of 5


### products, moving those forward together, we're 6


### still struggling to see how they move forward in 7


### this rulemaking process. And so in that type of 8


### process it might be more difficult. 9



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, I would say 10



### those other options really are more stakeholder 11


### driven processes where it really takes the desire 12



### of stakeholders to pursue one of those 13



### alternatives. If there is the desire there I 14


### think the nice thing about a negotiation or a 15



### consensus or whatever the case m ay be is, is 16


### there is a lot of wiggle room for negotiation. 17



### You know, there could be discussion of what's in 18


### or out of the scope. Just like we'd be wrestling 19



### with if we moved forward with our traditional 20


### rulemaking process. 21



### So, you know, we'll present wh at some of 22

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### our thoughts are on scope and definitions as we 1



### proceed here today. But I would presume that 2


### those same conversations could also be part of a 3


### negotiation as well. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Johnson. 5


### MR. JOHNSON: With regard to scope and 6



### definitions w hat deference does the Department 7


### give typically to established approaches in the 8



### ENERGY STAR program for that product category? 9



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. No, absolutely. And 10



### as you read through the framework and we go 11


### through today's presentation we've started pretty 12


### much everywhere with what's already been 13



### established in ENERGY STAR . And, you know, have 14



### made some tweaks to some definitions as it 15


### compares to what we're currently considering 16



### versus what's in ENERGY STAR . But as you'll see 17


### pretty much everything under consideration is the 18


### established definitions that have already been 19



### vetted through the ENERGY STAR process by 20



### interested stakeholders. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 22

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### So, thank you to Jeremy for inviting that 1



### and to all of you. I thought that was useful 2


### exchange right there. 3


### So now we're going to proceed with the 4


### slides in the packet. 5


### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So we are now getting 6


### into the very relevant and timely conversation of 7


### scope, which we've already begun to touch on in 8



### some ways. 9



### So in February 2014 DOE issued a notice 10


### of proposed determination. That proposed the 11


### following definition for computer and battery 12



### backup systems. 13


### And I'll just note for ease of language 14


### without having to say computer and battery backup 15



### systems, we'll often refer to that in the 16


### shorthand as just computer systems to reference 17



### computer and battery backup systems. 18


### So the definition that we had proposed in 19


### that February 2014 notice for computer systems 20


### was a consumer product whose primary function is 21



### to perform logical operations and process data, 22

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### or equipment whose primary function is to 1


### maintain continuality of load power for such 2


### products in case of input power failure. 3


### So we recognize that this definition may 4


### be broad and includes several different products, 5


### but as discussed in the February 2014 proposed 6


### determination, we do intend to narrow the scope 7


### of this rulemaking. 8


### DOE is currently considering consumer 9



### products such as computers, computer servers , and 10


### uninterruptable power supplies as examples of the 11



### typ e of products that would be considered in 12


### scope of the computer systems definition. 13


### So how are we preparing to do that? So 14


### the initial thought that we have is we are 15


### considering including definitions for computers, 16


### computer servers, and uninterruptable po wer 17


### supplies. And then having a scope of coverage 18



### for computer systems, both the test procedure and 19


### standards rulemaking to apply only to those 20


### products that meet the definition of a computer, 21


### of a computer server, of an uninterruptable power 22

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### supply. 1



### So those proposed definitions would be 2



### the type of consumer products that would be the 3


### starting point to establishing that scope. But 4


### we would additionally consider any other 5


### additional scope criteria. 6


### So we could then have a scope criteria 7



### for computers o r a scope criteria for computer 8


### servers or scope for uninterruptable power 9


### supplies to further limit the types of products 10


### that are within scope to any of these additional 11


### scoping criteria. And we'll go through those in 12


### more detail as I proceed with the p resentation. 13


### But one of the primary additional scope criterias 14


### that we'd be considering would be ways to limit 15



### the scope to only those computers, computer 16


### servers, or uninterruptable power supplies which 17


### would be considered a consumer product. 18



### So, Doug Jo hnson just asked the question 19


### of what definitions we're considering the next 20


### couple of slides here. I'll present what our 21


### beginning considerations are for definitions for 22

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### computers first, and then for servers and then 1


### uninterruptable power supplies. 2



### So for computers you'll see here on the 3



### screen, the definition here on the left

- hand side 4


### that we are considering for computers for the 5


### regulatory standard. It is very much largely 6



### adopted from the ENERGY STAR definition. 7



### You'll see the ENERGY STAR definitio n and 8



### then a n a bridge d version which is simplified on 9


### the right

- hand side. That's not the full ENERGY 10



### STAR definition of the computers but we are 11


### showing just part of it. 12



### And in bold here on the slides are some 13


### of the slight tweaks that we are currently 14



### c onsidering. So what we're considering for the 15


### definition of computers, we added

-- we're 16


### considering adding the term means a consumer 17



### product so we could only get consumer products 18



### that are powered by m ai ns power, with a primary 19


### function. So that part we 're adding. 20


### And the reason we're adding m ai ns power 21


### and primary function is to distinguish computers 22

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### from other electronic products that may perform 1


### logical operations but not as its primary 2


### function. So the DOE proposed definition 3


### specifies that products that have different 4


### primary functions are excluded. 5



### So on the definition under consideration 6


### here, we added this very last paragraph that 7


### specifically calls out products that may perform 8


### similar operations of performing logical 9


### operations and processing data but have different 10


### primary functions. 11


### So if the primary function is playing a 12


### video game, displaying a television signal, 13


### making a phone call, taking pictures, or 14


### outputting audio signals we would not consider 15


### those to be within scope, even if they are able 16


### to perform logical operations and process data, 17


### but not as that device's primary function. So 18


### that's one change that we're suggesting that we 19



### make. 20


### Additionally in the ENERGY STAR 21


### definition there is language that lists out 22

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### specific examples of the type of computers which 1


### are included, and we're not proposing to do that 2


### as part of the definition. We'd rather do that 3


### as part of an additional scoping statement. So 4


### we would still define computers and then we could 5


### have a scope underneath which fur ther clarifies 6


### what the scope of the computers is without making 7


### that scope part of the definition itself. 8


### So that is what we're currently 9


### considering. Again, this is very much a starting 10


### point and we're open to feedback on what we 11



### should use as the defin ition of computers. 12


### So at this time I will open it up to 13


### comments on what the definition we're considering 14


### are, is for computers, suggestions on the 15


### characteristics that may be used, and the 16


### definition to distinguish computers from other 17



### types of consumer electronics. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Anthony. 19



### MR. FRYER: Anthony Fryer, ASAP. Just 20


### going back to what I mentioned in the opening 21


### statement about looking at these definitions more 22

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### through a regulatory lens than with ENERGY STAR
, 1


### I think the emphasis shifts from a voluntary 2



### program to one that's out there to regulate a 3


### particular product category. 4


### So when I look at the definition that you 5


### have there for computers and you see at a minimum 6


### a computer is composed of one, two, three, number 7


### two, user input devices such as keyboard, mouse, 8


### and touchpad, if a manufacture r were to ship 9


### those devices separately would that product still 10


### be a computer, is a question that sprang to mind 11


### as I was reading it. 12


### And so a possible suggestion to tweak 13



### that a little bit would be to cha nge it to 14



### similar to number three where it's, where a 15


### computer would support input devices such as 16


### keyboard, mouse, touchpad. Just to clarify that. 17


### MR. DOMMU: That's a good suggestion. 18



### Thank you. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Don 20



### Brundage. 21



### MR. BRUND AGE: I'm having a hard time 22

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### looking at that definition and understanding 1



### where the boundaries are in real life. You have 2


### a classic desktop or laptop computer, you have 3


### netbooks, you have all sorts of different 4



### tablets. If you went by what most people us e 5



### tablets for, other than those that are in 6


### commercial dedicated applications, iPads or 7


### Android tablets spend a lot more time playing 8


### video games than they do productive work. I just 9



### don't understand how

-- this doesn't seem to be 10


### regulatory quality; some thing where you can say, 11



### this is included and this isn't. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: And so with these comments 13


### it would be helpful if you can describe what the 14


### fix would be as well. Mark, I saw you next. 15


### MR. SHARP: Mark Sharp for Panasonic. I 16


### was wondering if the DOE could provide a little 17


### additional clarity on the definition of consumer 18


### product. I see you take a little stab at it 19


### under the server definition on the next page 20


### where you talk about a server that is sold only 21


### or primarily to commercial and industrial 22

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### customers does not alone make it a commercial 1



### product. 2



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 3


### MR. SHARP: So it seems like you've tried 4


### to clarify the definition for servers, but I 5


### don't really see that clarity for computers. I'm 6


### wondering if you could

-- 7



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah , we're getting in to 8


### that, so maybe the slide, the order of the slides 9



### is not laid out well, but we have several slides 10


### that are coming up very soon where we're talking 11


### about how we're going to narrow the scope. So, 12



### like on this slide there's additional scoping 13


### criteria. We are intending to use additional 14


### scoping criteria to limit the scope of computers, 15


### computer servers, and uninterruptable power 16


### supplies to only certain types of computers or 17


### computer servers and uninterruptable power 18


### supplies that are consumer products. 19


### So what I'm first presenting here is the 20


### definition, but what we'll get into shortly is 21


### what the scope for the rulemaking will be. So we 22

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### will further narrow the scope. So the other 1


### question that had just come up is, we could also 2



### narro w the scope of computers to only desktops or 3



### notebooks or other types of computers through a 4


### scoping statement. And we're going to get into 5


### that momentarily. So this is just a definition 6


### of what a computer is, but that doesn't mean that 7


### everything that m eets that definition would be 8


### considered within scope. We will discuss 9


### additional scoping criteria shortly. 10


### MR. BROOKMAN: And if we could, for right 11


### now, get additional comments on the computer 12



### definition as directed by this comment box, 31, 13



### that would b e helpful. Jay? 14


### MR. TAYLOR: Thanks. This is Jay Taylor 15



### with Schneider Electric. I would remind the DOE 16



### and the rest of the folks here, it was a 17


### substantial investment of industry time and 18


### effort creating the ENERGY STAR program. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. 20


### MR. TAYLOR: And the definitions that go 21


### into that program. A lot of us spent a lot of 22

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### long hours with the ENERGY STAR program, writing 1


### this stuff and rewriting them over and over 2


### again. 3


### While I understand that they were not 4



### really targeted at a regulat ory environment, they 5


### were targeted to provide good definitions in this 6



### product category. 7


### So that would be my first comment. The 8


### second thing is, is I'm assuming later on you're 9


### going to provide me what mains power really 10



### means? 11



### MR. DOMMU: Sure. Yeah. I mean, we're 12


### going to

-- 13



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 14



### MR. DOMMU: We'll talk about that and we 15


### certainly welcome comment, though, on what that 16



### means. 17


### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. That's just

-- that 18



### was it. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jay, let me ask a follow 20



### on question. 21



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: You said you spent a lot 1


### of time working on it. Now that it has been 2


### worked on are you suggesting that these 3


### definitions are seeming sufficient and

-- 4


### MR. TAYLOR: Well, I would say like 5


### standards activity, we ’ re never really done. But 6


### I would point out that changing

-- so there was a 7



### lot of effort that went in to define the 8


### categories under computer systems. I was a part 9



### of that. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. 11



### MR. TAYLOR: There was a lot of effort 12


### put in to defining the categories for U PS systems 13


### in not only the IEC language but also within the 14



### ENERGY STAR program. 15



### I would be really reluctant to go off and 16



### change those categorizations that we've gone off 17


### and defined, unless there was a significantly 18


### appropriate reason, like there was a w hole lot of 19



### energy to go be saved. 20


### And I do acknowledge that these things 21


### were targeted at high end

-- or at efficiency in 22

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### a voluntary program. I do acknowledge that. But 1


### I also think that the way we went about defining 2



### it and the fact that the ENERGY STAR regulations 3



### have been adopted by a number of other 4


### international jurisdictions tends to lead you to 5


### a conclusion that the definition effort by the 6



### ENERGY STAR program was well thought out and 7


### easily adopted. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9



### MR. TAYLOR: So I woul d say that it's 10



### actually pretty good and I'd be really reluctant 11


### to go change those categories. 12


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now if we can 13


### get additional comments on the definition here on 14


### page 19 of your slides. Joseph. 15


### MR. ANDERSEN: Joseph Andersen with TI A

. 16


### I have more a question than a comment. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. 18


### MR. ANDERSEN: So the primary function, 19


### what's DOE thinking at this point on how to 20


### define what the primary function of a device is? 21


### I mean, I think this raises the point that was 22

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### made earlier, is that based on consumer use? Is 1



### that based on what the manufacture r sells it as? 2


### You know, it's a huge question because there are 3


### a lot of devices that could potentially fall 4



### under the definition. Even a Smartphone , for 5


### example, where it's d ifficult to define what the 6


### primary function is. 7


### So does the DOE have some initial thought 8



### on what that means? 9



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. No, I think that 10


### that's a good point. I think you know, using the 11


### term primary function certainly does leave it 12



### open

- ended i n some ways to what that primary 13


### function actually is. I mean, we attempted to 14


### specifically exclude other primary functions that 15


### would commonly be considered, you know, other 16


### devices playing video games and trying to get at 17


### excluding game consoles, displa ying television 18


### signals, excluding TVs, making phone calls, 19


### excluding phones, presumably smart phones. But I 20


### mean, if this is not clear, if you know, if 21


### there's other suggestions of how this definition 22

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### should be worded, taking into account, you know, 1



### the ENERGY STAR definition, which you know, is 2


### very much our starting point here, we welcome 3


### them. But I think you know, I think this 4



### definition covers or is intended to cover what we 5



### all think in our mind when we talk about a 6



### computer such as a desktop compu ter, a notebook 7



### computer. 8


### MR. ANDERSEN: Joseph Andersen again with 9



### TIA . Just a quick follow

- up question because I 10


### guess what I'm worried about in terms of the 11


### regulatory framework is if it's based on, you 12


### know, you have this basic ENERGY STAR definitio n 13


### and then excluding by primary function certain 14


### projects, a lot of these products are changing 15


### functionality, and a lot of them are doing it 16


### like every two or three years. 17


### And so that's the question is, could 18


### something potentially using this exclusion 19



### p rocess, not be covered by the rulemaking and 20


### then all of a sudden it is, even though they 21



### didn't intend to be? 22

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### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 1



### MR. ANDERSEN: That would be the concern. 2



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. No, that's a good 3


### consideration and certainly if you have 4



### sugges tions of how we could cover the products 5



### that are commonly considered a computer, you 6


### know, that would be great if you could, you know, 7


### provide ideas either now or in comments. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here 9



### before we move on to computer servers? Okay. 10



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So now we'll talk 11


### about the definition for computer servers. 12


### So we have the definition here. Again, 13



### this is abridged. On the left, the definition 14


### under consideration is a couple dot, dot, dots 15



### that indicate that we're not

-- w e didn't put out 16


### the full language on this slide. The full 17


### language is, of the definition we are considering 18



### is in the framework document itself. 19


### The first thing I would note, though, is 20


### that we begin the definition just like ENERGY 21



### STAR , saying a compu ter. So that would presume 22

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### that a computer server would first have to meet 1


### the definition of what a computer is, and then 2



### furthermore meet these additional considerations 3


### to be considered a computer server. 4


### So really what we're trying to do here is 5



### crea te a method to distinguish between a consumer 6


### product, which is a computer, versus one that is 7



### also a computer server. And that's what we're 8


### intending to do with this desk

-- with this 9



### definition. 10


### So one of the things we're not 11


### considering adopting, tho ugh, is the sentence in 12



### the ENERGY STAR definition that restricts servers 13



### to only those servers that are sold through 14


### enterprise channels because there are many 15


### servers that are sold for use in multiple 16



### environments, both to be used in a data center or 17



### off ice environment, as well as being of a type 18


### which are used by individuals or households as 19



### consumer products. 20



### Under EPCA the fact that a computer is 21



### sold to commercial and industrial customers does 22

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### not alone mean it's not a consumer product. 1


### We'll get int o a little bit more about the 2


### consumer product issue later, but because of that 3


### we are not currently considering adopting the 4



### sentence which is in ENERGY STAR that states a 5


### computer server is sold through enterprise 6



### channels for use in data centers and off ice and 7


### corporate environments. 8


### We're also not including the requirement 9



### from ENERGY STAR , computer servers version 2.0, 10


### and that a computer server is designed for and 11


### listed as supporting one or more computer server 12


### operating systems and hypervisors. Tha t is 13


### because it may be difficult to create a 14


### quantitative distinction between what is a 15


### computer operating system and a computer server 16


### operating system. 17


### Point being we are trying to have a 18



### definition here where it is clear what is a 19



### computer server vers us a device which is a 20



### computer

-- which is not a computer server. And 21



### we felt that that additional bullet that's in the 22

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### ENERGY STAR definition would not help distinguish 1


### between something that's a computer server versus 2


### something that's a computer that i s not a 3



### computer server. 4



### And for that same reason we are also not 5


### considering the bullet in the ENERGY STAR 6


### definition that a computer server is packaged and 7


### sold with one or more AC/DC or DC/DC power 8


### supplies, and again that is because we would 9



### expect man y computers and computer servers to be 10


### packaged and sold with one or more AC/DC or DC/DC 11


### power supplies. And therefore that does not help 12


### provide a meaningful distinction between a 13



### computer and a computer server. 14


### So, again, that is what we are currently 15



### c onsidering. It is our starting point. And 16



### that's why we're here, to get your comments on 17


### it. So at this point I will certainly open it up 18


### for feedback and information, any additional 19


### factors or criteria that we could consider using 20



### as we consider what t he definition for a computer 21



### server should be. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 1



### MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 2


### Company. I think the key under EPCA is not the 3



### distribution channel. It's whether it exists in 4



### a normal home, because this is similar to t he 5



### cable set

- top boxes. The consumer doesn't 6


### directly purchase those through a store but they 7


### are in use in a home so they're covered under 8



### EPCA. 9


### So whatever definition you come up with 10


### needs to distinguish between the products that 11


### are normally used wi thin a home, regardless of 12



### who purchases them under the normal contractual 13


### arrangements, and those that are used normally in 14


### business applications. 15


### And I'm not sure right now how you would 16



### do that, but the sort of servers to me that would 17



### be used in a ho me would be both the servers you 18


### might buy at Best Buy, and the ones that are used 19



### by the

-- a lot of times the modems are an 20


### integrated router for the cable

-- for the 21


### internet provider, where you buy it with the

-- 22

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### where it's part of the package with the service 1


### provider. 2


### MR. DOMMU: Right. Yeah. And again, you 3


### know, we're going to add scope. This is a 4


### definition for computer servers. It's not 5


### necessarily a definition for computer servers 6


### which are consumer products. We will discuss 7



### shortly what sc ope we should use, so the scope of 8


### the rulemaking relates only to computer servers 9


### which are considered consumer products. 10



### MR. SHEIKH: Just a comment. Shahid from 11



### Intel. ENERGY STAR , when they're looking at the 12


### definition, when they say criteria, they a re 13


### combining it all, you know, and not listing AC/DC 14


### or DC/DC power supply. This is based on all the 15


### factors combined to make up the criteria. So 16


### when you're looking at in isolation, it makes 17


### sense what you are saying, but that's not what 18



### ENERGY STAR doe s, looking in isolation but 19


### looking at as a whole. 20


### MR. BROOKMAN: It says, in addition 21


### computer server must, meeting the following 22

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### criteria. 1



### MR. SHEIKH: Yes. Yeah, correct. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Must. 3



### MR. SHEIKH: All. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. 6



### MR . BROOKMAN: Thank you. 7



### MR. SHEIKH: Y ea h. 8


### MR. BROOKMAN: That's good clarification. 9



### Okay. 10


### Additional comments on computer servers 11



### definition? 12



### And of course the Department really 13


### welcomes you giving this a considerable amount of 14


### thought in your writte n comments. 15



### Yes? 16


### MS. LOGAN: Just briefly on

-- 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Erica. 18



### MS. LOGAN: Erica with ITI. We will 19


### provide more details but I think we need to 20



### corroborate third

- party data sources because our 21


### data indicates that servers are not sold to any 22

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### signif icant extent at all in commerce. 1



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. 2



### MS. LOGAN: So, as well as energy 3


### consumption levels. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: That's helpful. Thank 5



### you. Yeah. Okay. Are we ready to move on now? 6



### I think so. 7



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So now UPSs . So here 8



### is the def inition that is currently under 9



### consideration f or uninterruptable power supplies. 10



### It is a combination of converters, switches, and 11


### energy storage devices such as batteries 12


### constituting a power system for maintaining 13


### continuality of load power in case of p rimary 14


### input power failure. 15



### This is the same definition that is 16


### already specified in ENERGY STAR UPS Version 1.0 17



### and IEC standard 62040

- 3 Edition 2. 18


### So there it is. We are not considering 19


### any changes to the definition of a UPS that 20


### already exists in tho se other programs. 21


### So I could now open it up to any comments 22

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### as it relates to the definition of a UPS. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. No comments. 2


### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So now moving on. 3


### We've already gotten many questions on this, but 4



### as I've stated we are only co nsidering computer 5


### systems which are consumer products as defined by 6


### EPCA to be in scope of this rulemaking. 7


### So the definition of a consumer product 8


### as shown here is an article of a type which to 9


### any significant extent is distributed in commerce 10



### for person al use or consumption by individuals. 11


### So essentially what this definition is 12


### doing is it's trying to distinguish between 13


### consumer products and products which are not 14


### consumer products, so that any given product 15



### under this definition would be considered eit her 16



### a consumer product or not a consumer product, 17


### regardless of whether such article is in fact 18


### distributed in commerce for personal use or 19


### consumption by an individual. 20



### So as long as that product to any 21


### significant extent is of a type which is 22

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### distributed through commerce for personal use or 1


### consumption by individuals, then under our 2



### definition it would be considered a consumer 3



### product. 4


### So if you, for example, if you have a 5


### desktop computer which is distributed into 6



### commerce as a consumer product to be u sed by 7



### households or individuals, and that same desktop 8



### computer or a desktop computer of the same type 9



### could also be distributed into commerce for use 10


### by offices or commercial environments. It may 11


### still be considered a consumer product under the 12



### definiti on of EPCA if it is distributed to any 13


### significant extent into commerce for personal use 14


### or consumption by individuals. 15



### So that's the definition of what a 16


### consumer product is under EPCA. And now the goal 17


### of the rulemaking is to use this definition of 18



### what EPCA considers to be a consumer product, and 19


### apply it to the products that could be within 20


### scope of this rulemaking, computers, computer 21



### servers , and UPSs . So we could scope out any 22

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### such products which would not be considered a 1



### consumer product. 2



### And tr ying to figure out what criteria or 3


### method we could use is something that we put out 4


### there to request comment on in the notice of 5


### proposed determination. We did get a number of 6


### very good comments in response to that and now 7



### we've detailed some of these sc oping conditions 8


### that we are considering using in the framework 9


### document to get some more insight. 10


### So, now I'm going to move on to how we 11


### intend, or what we're considering and open up the 12



### floor for comments of how we could limit the 13


### scope of the rulemaki ng to only those computer 14


### systems which are considered consumer products, 15



### and also discuss some additional criteria we'll 16


### be using. 17


### MR. BROOKMAN: May I interrupt? Pardon 18


### me for doing so. 19



### MR. DOMMU: Sure. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from an 21



### indivi dual who has joined us online related to 22

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### computer servers. 1



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: So I thought I'd add that 3



### here. 4


### Craig Stephens says, "A computer server 5


### is usually classified by the FCC as a Class A 6


### device (commercial) only specific units design ed 7



### for home use would be classified as consumer 8



### product." 9



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. 10


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Craig. 11


### MR. DOMMU: All right. Thank you. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Pardon me for 13


### interrupting. 14


### MR. DOMMU: No, no, thank you for doing 15



### that. I

-- 16



### MR. B ROOKMAN: Yes. Doug Johnson. 17



### MR. JOHNSON: Jeremy, could you go back 18



### one? That is the EPCA slide there. 19



### MR. DOMMU: This is the definition of a 20



### consumer product by EPCA. 21


### MR. JOHNSON: Perhaps this is a question 22

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### for your legal counsel , Celia. What does the 1


### Department today think is significant with 2


### respect to that definition there on that slide to 3


### any significant extent? 4



### MS. SHER: Oh, okay. Sorry. I 5


### misunderstood your comment. 6


### MR. JOHNSON: Not a philosophical 7


### question but

-- 8



### MS. SHER: In terms o f consumer products 9



### in the home? 10



### MR. JOHNSON: Let me focus it to this 11


### slide in particular. 12


### MS. SHER: Okay. So, I think that that 13


### is something that would be better answered if you 14


### put it in your comments, our interpretation of 15



### the statute. I don't think

-- you know, it's a 16


### complicated

-- obviously it's not so 17


### straightforward. We're asking for your input on 18


### the, you know, types of things to make a 19



### distinction between consumer and commercial 20


### products. You know, I think that that's 21


### something we could get into more detail, but 22

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### would appreciate it in the comments. 1



### MR. JOHNSON: For example, one or two 2


### percent, is that significant? Three, four, five, 3


### 10? I'm just trying to get a sense of scale 4



### here. 5



### MR. SHEIKH: This should be a settled 6


### issue, right? What the test of significance is? 7


### MS. SHER: Yeah. And I think, again, 8


### that's something that I would appreciate, you 9



### know

-- we would appreciate in the comments. If 10


### you could submit that, I can't speak on the 11


### percentage for significance. 12



### MR. JOHNSON: I under stand. I guess 13


### perhaps based on previous interpretations and 14


### earlier rulemakings, was there

-- did you 15


### consider something significant in a different 16


### product category at a certain level? Anything 17


### helpful along those lines that you could

-- 18



### MS. SHER: And I think that's a great 19


### question. I think that that's something that 20



### we'd have to look into. 21



### MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 22

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### MS. SHER: I really couldn't answer that 1


### right now. It's a little more complicated than a 2


### simple answer. 3


### MR. JOHNSON: Fair enough. Thank you

. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Boesenberg. 5



### MR. BOESENGBERG: Alex Boesenberg for 6


### NEMA. I'll restate Doug's question because we 7



### share this concern. 8


### The EPCA definition is extremely broad 9


### and the challenge that is presented because the 10



### Department has chosen to app roach this in 11


### individual rulemakings and not offer a little bit 12


### more specific assistance in clarifying this 13


### coverage is, as we get into a rulemaking, due to 14



### the nature of the comment then response, comment 15


### and response, and sometimes years between 16



### mileston e documents, we get a very different 17


### opinion, forced to figure it out for ourselves we 18


### can arrive at a very different conclusion than 19


### the Department does. Especially the enforcement 20


### side of the Department. 21


### And we write a test procedure with, oh, 22

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### it wouldn 't possibly include this product in 1


### scope. And we end up with a test procedure that 2


### doesn't fairly test the product. And then a 3



### standard comes along that sets a performance 4



### level that a product or a product class cannot 5



### meet because we didn't think it wa s in scope. 6


### And this is an ongoing problem and we'd 7



### request, beg, challenge the Department to offer 8


### more concrete guidance as to what is a consumer 9


### product and offer that in general so that we can 10


### apply it to anything going on. And I recognize 11



### that's a challenge. 12


### But then also, you know, this framework 13


### point is a time where we need to have the scope 14


### distinctly clear before we can proceed with test 15


### procedures, and certainly before a standard can 16



### be set. Thank you. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Alex. Okay. 18



### Celia? 19


### MS. SHER: And I was just going to point 20


### you, and you may already be aware of this, but 21


### just on something that you can take a look at 22

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### now, we do have a guidance document that you all 1


### might be aware of that discusses the distinction 2



### between a consume r product and a commercial 3


### product, and with regard to refrigerators, that 4


### might be useful to take a look at. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Alex? 6



### MR. BOESENGBERG: And this is Alex from 7



### NEMA. 8



### Yes, we've read that. 9



### MS. SHER: Okay. 10



### MR. BOESENGBERG: And I have to tell y ou, 11


### it doesn't do the job. 12



### MS. SHER: Okay. Well, thank you. 13


### MR. BOESENGBERG: All right. 14


### MS. SHER: Appreciate the comment. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Jay? 16



### MR. TAYLOR: I guess

-- Jay Taylor with 17


### Schneider Electric. I guess I would point out 18



### that in m any cases it's not just a matter of 19


### products that we build, because we build products 20


### and we will target them at specific market 21


### places, consumer/commercial. But if a competitor 22

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### or somebody else comes into the marketplace and 1


### we're not watching very caref ully, and they do 2


### market a product that is similar to ours but in a 3


### consumer way, we get rolled up in it as well. 4


### We, meaning other manufacture r s who don't offer a 5


### product for that particular feature set because 6


### if you look at it, it's generally architect ural 7


### that goes between consumer and business, is 8


### generally some form of architecture that 9



### differentiates the two. 10


### So we may get rolled up into that in an 11


### enforcement action, not knowing. So that's one 12



### of the reasons that we continue to ask for 13



### additional clarity is because we don't like to 14



### blindside our business units with an enforcement 15



### action. 16


### But at the same time this is very broad. 17


### I realize that it was provided by the legislation 18


### that defined it. But without more clarity what 19


### happens is we will te nd to overcompensate and 20


### include products that shouldn't be, into the 21



### limit , simply because they could be interpreted 22

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### to be in the limit. It costs us a lot of money 1


### to do it, but we do it anyway because we don't 2


### want to be caught in violation. And some o f us 3



### have been because somebody entered the 4



### marketplace that we weren't aware of, offered 5


### their product, and it looked similar enough to 6



### ours that we get an enforcement letter. 7


### So I'm simply pointing out that that's 8



### the reason that a lot of us tend to push for a 9


### lot more clarity about the differences between 10


### consumer and commercial products. 11



### MS. SHER: Yeah. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Don Brundage. 13


### MR. BRUNDAGE: I've been dealing with 14


### efficiency standards here longer than I would 15



### like to admit on a lot of dif ferent rulemakings. 16


### And for most other products it's not really a big 17


### issue. I mean, the rule is you're a residential 18


### product if you're less than 120 gallons, above 19


### 120 gallons on a water heater you end up with all 20


### these boiler code things that drastical ly 21


### increase the cost. If you're less than five and 22

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### quarter tons on an air conditioning unit. 1


### But this sort of equipment is different 2



### in that it sort of mixes between commercial and 3


### industrial. But in the end it's not going to be 4


### a philosophical questio n about significant 5


### extent. It's driving a stake in the ground with 6


### a razor sharp definition where you can tell that 7


### this product is a consumer product. This product 8


### is not a consumer product. And if you find 9


### there's a problem with that you can change i t at 10


### a later rulemaking. 11



### There's been some efforts out there with 12


### water heaters to change the definition of 13


### included product to eliminate gaps and loopholes. 14


### Over there you can just raise the burner size on 15


### a gas water heater enough and it's for 16



### residenti al and it falls under the commercial 17


### standard if you make the burner too big. 18


### What I think you need in the end, and I'm 19


### not an expert on how to set these definitions, 20


### you need to have something very sharp, very 21


### clear, even if it's not perfect, that says th is 22

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### is a consumer product, this is not. The 1



### manufacture r s deserve that and not something 2


### where they're going to get hauled back in later 3


### and said, this is not a consumer product. Thank 4



### you. 5


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. Let me make a point 6


### there. So, we're putting this definition out. 7


### This is what EPCA gives us as a definition for 8


### what is a consumer product. And now we're trying 9


### to take this definition, we're trying to get your 10


### feedback on how we should apply it so we can make 11


### that distinguishment for each of thes e product 12


### groups we're considering, computers, computer 13



### servers, and UPSs . So we could have that clear 14


### differentiation between what type of computer, 15


### what type of computer server, what type of UPS is 16



### a consumer product versus what's not a consumer 17



### product

. 18


### So like in the water heater example that 19


### you just gave, we want to say, okay, well, if 20


### we're trying to get at only those water heaters 21



### that are consumer products and you want to make 22

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### that clear distinguishment between the capacity 1



### and gallons, that's the type of distinguishment 2


### we're looking for right now. So we could say all 3



### such water heaters under 120 gallons are a 4


### consumer product because they meet this 5



### definition. 6


### So we're trying to come up with what we 7


### could use, what we could distinguish those 8



### com puter systems, which are consumer products, 9



### versus ones that are not consumer products, based 10


### on this definition which EPCA gives us. 11


### So we don't want to have any ambiguity. 12


### You know, the definition, you know, says it's 13


### without regard to whether such art icle is of a 14


### type which is distributed into commerce for 15


### personal use or consumption by an individual. So 16



### if it meets this definition of what is a consumer 17



### product, and we want to get your feedback so we 18


### could properly scope what is a consume r product 19



### ver sus what isn't, then we could create that 20


### clear way to distinguish them. Even if that 21


### product is sold

-- if we consider it a consumer 22

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### product and it meets all these scope and criteria 1


### that we preside, that we put out there to be what 2



### is considered a consu mer product, even if that 3


### product is then sold to be used in an office 4


### setting it would still be within the scope. 5


### That's what the definition here is saying. 6


### So we're looking at ways to make that 7


### distinguishment between the type of computer 8


### systems which are distributed into commerce to 9


### any significant extent for use by individuals, 10


### and when we want to try to figure how we define 11


### what that scope is so we could properly make sure 12


### that all such products are within the scope. And 13



### there's no confusion, there' s no interpretation 14



### that manufacture r s have to make. We have a very 15


### clear scoping statement of what is a consumer 16


### product as it relates to computer systems. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments. 18



### Okay. 19



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So now we'll talk 20



### about what we cur rently considering to be in 21



### scope as a consumer product and then some 22

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### additional criteria. First desk top computers. 1


### So the method that DOE is considering to 2


### determine what type of computers

-- and I'll say 3


### this, when I say computers in this instance I am 4


### talking about computers which meet the definition 5


### of a computer but don't meet the additional 6



### definition of a consumer

-- of a computer server. 7


### All right? These are just those computers I'm 8


### talking about now, which personal computers, 9



### which meet the defi nition of computers but don't 10


### meet the additional requirements to be a computer 11



### server. 12



### So of those type of computers, based on 13


### comments received from the notice of proposed 14


### determination, DOE has the understanding that the 15


### basic design and characteristic s of personal 16


### computers is similar between devices sold for 17



### commercial customers and devices sold to 18



### consumers. 19


### So accordingly, at this initial stage or 20



### initial determination is that we're not aware of 21


### any computers that would be considered commercial 22

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### ind ustrial equipment only; meaning they are not 1


### of a type which are distributed into commerce to 2


### any significant extent for use by households and 3


### individuals. So therefore, at this stage, DOE is 4


### considering including all personal computers to 5



### be consumer pro ducts. 6


### However, even though it is our current 7



### belief

-- we welcome your feedback

-- that DOE is 8


### considering all computers to be consumer 9


### products, we are considering whether we should 10


### use other factors to limit the scope of the 11


### computer rulemaking. 12



### At th is point we are considering 13


### including desktops and integrated desktops, 14


### notebooks and thin clients to be in scope of the 15


### rulemaking. But we are still evaluating the 16


### impact of including other types of personal 17


### computers such as work stations or small

- scale 18


### servers or tablet computers to be in the scope of 19


### the rulemaking. 20


### So we're intending to do that in a couple 21


### of different ways. So first we are considering 22

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### including further definitions for desktops or 1


### notebooks or integrated desktops or any other 2



### product . We'd likely look at the ENERGY STAR 3


### definition for those products first, and then we 4


### would include a list of those products that are 5


### considered within the scope of computers. 6


### So it might not be anything that meets 7


### that definition of computers. We may limit it to 8


### only certain types of personal computers. And we 9



### could include definitions to do so. 10



### So we could say the scope of the 11


### rulemaking applies only to desktops, notebooks, 12


### integrated desktops, and then have definitions 13


### for what is a desktop or a notebook or an 14


### integrated desktop. 15


### Another consideration that we are doing 16


### is using product features and characteristics to 17


### further define the scope. So we could use 18


### something like product weight or screen size or 19


### power source or hardware characteristic s, or 20


### anything else that you guys could think of or 21


### want to propose to also limit the scope. We 22

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### could either use this first option or we could 1


### use the second option, or we could use both 2


### options. And that is how we could further 3


### consider limiting the sco pe. 4


### So that's basically where we are right 5


### now. One quick example is with screen size. We 6


### recently finalized a test procedure for 7



### televisions and we said that this television test 8


### procedure only applies to televisions that are 9



### over 15 inches in size. So if it was under 15 10


### inches that television would be out of scope. So 11



### that's how we did that. 12


### So again, the general initial stage 13


### determination is that we're considering that all 14


### computers meet the definition of a consumer 15


### product, but we are considering alternative ways 16


### and methods to limit the scope to only certain 17



### types of computers. 18



### So we have a number of different items 19


### here that essentially request feedback on all of 20


### that information that I just put out there. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: And perhaps we could sta rt 22

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### with 25 because the Department at this point 1


### would really benefit from your comments. 2


### Especially about these items, all the items 3


### bulleted there, but particularly the ones on the 4


### right

- hand side, evaluating the impact of 5


### including workstations, small s cale servers, and 6



### tablets. Your thoughts on that. Shahid? 7



### MR. SHEIKH: No, I was commenting more on 8


### the following page. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Please. Go ahead. 10


### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. When you mentioned 11



### that you could also use general product features 12



### and characte ristics, is there a criteria that's 13


### driven by significance of those products; those 14


### same terms, right? Or energy, or some other way 15


### to judge how you determine which product features 16



### are to be included or not? 17


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, at this point we 18



### haven't mad e any determination of what product 19



### features or characteristics we would look at and 20



### what the criteria would be. 21



### MR. SHEIKH: Sure. 22

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### MR. DOMMU: That's really what we're 1


### looking for comment on. So, obviously you know, 2


### if you have any thoughts now, sure. B ut 3


### obviously this is something that would take, I'm 4



### sure, some thought. 5



### MR. SHEIKH: But you would use some 6



### criteria? 7



### MR. DOMMU: But we could use criteria, 8



### absolutely. 9


### MR. SHEIKH: Not just arbitrarily decide, 10


### right? 11


### MR. DOMMU: Oh, I see what you're sayi ng. 12



### So what criteria would we use? 13


### MR. SHEIKH: Right. 14



### MR. DOMMU: I think the criteria we would 15



### use would be comments from stakeholders to help 16



### us determine what should be or should not be in 17



### scope. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Robert. 19



### MR. WHITE: Yes. It's Robert Wh ite with 20



### Dell. 21



### So I would like to use the tablets as an 22

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### example. The new efficiency level 6 for external 1


### power supplies would go into effect, you know, 2


### early 2016. California adopted your battery 3


### charger spec for the most part, so to me devices 4



### like th is and even some of the notebooks the 5


### annualized power consumption of these devices is 6



### extremely low. 7



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 8


### MR. WHITE: So are you considering 9


### setting a threshold that devices that are above a 10


### certain percentage would fall within scope? Or 11



### a re you going to require all these super 12



### efficient devices, notebooks included here, and 13


### thin clients where the energy consumption is 14


### already so low it doesn't really make a lot of 15


### sense to pull them in and have them go through 16


### the same rigor of products th at, I guess that 17



### would consume more power? 18


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, I think you 19


### make a number of good points. I think what we're 20


### saying here is we could do

-- have a couple 21


### different options. 22

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### We could say that only desktops and 1



### notebooks and integrated desktops are included, 2



### but say for example all tablets are excluded. If 3


### we do that, right, then no tablets are included. 4


### We could say that, well, tablets are included but 5


### only tablets that are a certain screen size. So 6


### there's a number of different way s that we could 7



### do that. We haven't determined what method that 8


### we are planning on taking is at this point yet. 9


### But I mean, I think to your point earlier 10


### on in the presentation I talked about the EPCA 11



### factors that we consider when we do conservation 12



### stan dards. We're looking to achieve the maximum 13


### improvement in energy efficiency that is 14


### technologically feasible and economically 15


### justified and results in a significant 16


### conservation of energy. 17


### If, you know, if there is not going to be 18


### a significant conserv ation of energy, you know, 19


### that certainly, you know, would be interesting 20


### comments to provide to the docket explaining why 21


### you feel regulating this type of computer may not 22

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### make sense because the energy savings are not 1


### significant. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Same er. 3



### MR. KWATRA: Sameer Kwatra with ACEEE

. 4


### In line with the opening remarks by ASAP 5


### that in order to have longevity of the rulemaking 6


### we should have broad categories, we should think 7



### about what's going to happen substantially in the 8


### future and not right no w. 9


### And why at a product level we are seeing 10



### that, you know, though smaller products are 11


### efficient, tablets, smart phones. But we have 12



### also seen trends are that these are 13


### proliferating. So as a category on aggregate 14



### they consume huge amount of energy and will 15



### continue to as far as one can foresee into the 16



### future. 17


### So the point I'm trying to make here is 18


### if we are too narrowly defining the categories 19


### like separating tablets, there are product 20


### already in the market that are two

- in

- one, 21


### laptops and tablets, Mi crosoft Surface. I 22

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### believe every manufacturer has one. So it's easy 1



### for those to be excluded from the conservation 2



### standards. 3


### So I would recommend the group to think 4


### of the future and converging categories, and 5



### therefore be more inclusive. 6


### Similarly another trend is large 7


### workforces telecommuting, and there are more than 8



### one computer per household even now. There are 9


### probably going to be more computing devices per 10


### household in the future. And therefore computer 11



### servers for personal use are

-- we can debate 12


### what is the percentage and if it is significant 13


### now. But that's certainly going to increase and 14


### therefore we should keep that in mind. But this 15


### rulemaking is not for today. Thank you. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Joseph? 17



### MR. ANDERSEN: Just a quick question on 18


### that. And this is something that gets to this 19


### question of how significant

-- how much energy 20


### can be saved by a conservation standard here. 21


### So my question is, I've heard about like 22

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### the aggregate consumption of the devices, and 1



### that's i n the rulemaking. What I'd like to be 2


### pointed to is, and I think the DOE must have some 3


### thoughts on this too, is if you look at computers 4


### they've been almost doubling in efficiency every 5


### couple years. Like, it almost follows Moore's 6



### Law. There are a lot of studies out on it where 7


### there's all this progress being made there. 8


### And so what I'm wondering is, is what is 9



### the DOE, what are they trying to get through the 10


### rulemaking process, I guess in terms of energy 11



### conservation? What can manufacture r s

-- what d o 12



### they want manufacture r s to do that they're not 13


### already doing, because you look at like, 14


### especially like tablets and laptops, they have 15



### such a strong market reason because nobody wants 16


### their devices to die, you know, so they're trying 17


### to get those batteri es to squeeze out as long as 18



### they can. 19


### So I'm curious on those in particular. 20


### Like, what does the DOE see there up front where 21


### they think manufacture r s could be doing more than 22

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### they already are? 1



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, I think to 2



### attempt to answer that , I mean, as I've said EPCA 3


### directs DOE to adopt conservation standards which 4


### achieve the maximum improvement of energy 5


### efficiency which is technol og ically feasible and 6


### economically justified. So that's the goal of 7


### this process. 8



### In the framework there's a first chapter 9



### that's out there that we looked at some of the 10


### ranges and some of the data that's available on 11



### the market, you know, that showed that not all 12


### computers are created equal and there is some 13


### discrepancy between the efficiency of different 14



### types of computers. So that is certainly helping 15


### drive our decision to begin this process by 16


### looking at that data that indicates that there is 17


### opportunity to achieve a maximum improvement in 18


### energy efficiency. 19


### MS. SHER: And I think we're exploring 20



### that. You know, we have a proposed determination 21



### to make computer systems a cover ed product. So 22

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### we haven't made a determination yet. That's what 1


### we're trying to explore now, if it is 2


### significant. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, thank you, Celia

. 4



### Yes. Shahid. 5



### MR. SHEIKH: Yea h. So over time as the 6



### form factor s have all been in some of the

-- form 7



### factors listed on the left

- hand side become more 8



### efficient, a lot more efficient, like similar to 9


### what you see on the right, then you have a 10


### mechanism to move them to the right over time as 11


### part of the regulation? Or they're destined to 12


### be in scope? 13


### Notebooks are evolving, right, and 14


### becoming more energy efficient over time than 15


### today's notebooks. And similarly, you know, your 16



### desktops. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: You can graduate them out 18



### or so mething. 19



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. So what's the 20


### mechanism to keep them in scope when it's no 21


### longer meeting that

-- it's below the threshold 22

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### that you may have determined to be in scope in 1


### the first place? 2


### MR. DOMMU: I mean, the first thing I 3


### would say is that, if as you're saying, the 4


### technology becomes more and more efficient over 5


### time then presumably it would meet and continue 6


### to exceed any potential conservation standard for 7


### that product, so that may not be an issue to 8


### begin with if the technology becomes mo re 9



### efficient as a result of the standard or as a 10



### result of other market forces. 11


### In terms of having something that's in 12



### scope that suddenly goes out of scope, I don't 13


### know the answer to that question, so I would 14


### advise you, you know, you could put it in wri ting 15


### on the docket and we could consider it that way 16


### as part of the rulemaking. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: One of the individuals 18


### online has a comment. Jim Spitaels. Jim, if you 19



### unmute your phone and speak we hope to hear you 20



### here in the room. 21



### MR. SPITAELS: Hi. Ca n you hear me? 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we hear you well. 1


### Keep going. 2


### MR. SPITAELS: Okay. So I'm Jim Spitaels 3



### from Schneider Electric and I also understand 4



### that for a product to be regulated there's a rule 5


### that relates to its consumption has to be over 6



### 100 k ilowatt hours per year. Can you clarify 7



### that? 8



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. So that's part of the 9


### proposed determination rulemaking that Celia just 10


### mentioned. I don't have the language in front of 11



### me but it's true that in order to be considered a 12



### covered product DO E needs to ensure that it meets 13



### certain thresholds. Those thresholds relate to 14


### the average household efficiency of that product, 15


### not the actual efficiency or consumption of that 16



### product. It's the per household level. So we 17



### look at the total energy consu mption of all 18


### products that are within the scope and divide it 19



### by the number of such households that use that 20


### product and that is how we determine what the 21


### average per household energy consumption is. 22

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### MS. SHER: Right. And so we would have 1



### to meet that th reshold. 2



### MR. DOMMU: And we'd have to meet that 3



### threshold, absolutely. 4


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was Celia. 5



### Now, Alex? 6



### MR. BOESENGBERG: Alex Boesenberg of 7


### NEMA. Could you clarify, Celia or Jeremy, your 8



### current thinking? I know you haven't made a 9



### dete rmination yet, I guess, but your current 10


### thinking on speaking of aggregate energies and 11


### per household energy use. What is your current 12


### thought towards approaching the system versus the 13


### specific product? You can buy just a server, you 14


### can buy just a compu ter, you can buy just a UPS, 15


### so then is this 150 watt kilowatt hours a year 16



### only when they're all three sold together, or at 17


### the individual level? Since you keep saying 18


### product, a system is not really a product. It's 19


### a bunch of products joined together. So where 20



### are those lines drawn or do you have some 21



### thoughts on that yet? 22

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### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, what the 1


### statute requires to be a proposed determination 2


### is the covered products. So in this case the 3


### covered product would include computer and 4



### battery b ackup systems. So that is what we would 5



### look at when we make that determination of 6


### whether it meets those threshold requirements to 7


### be considered a covered product or not. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Shahid. 9



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. So to determine that 10



### is it based on what you've classified in this 11



### proposal, products that are on the left

- hand side 12


### that will be part of the determination? Or all 13



### seven listed here? 14



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, it would be what is 15


### considered in scope of the

-- what's in scope of 16


### the proposed determinatio n. 17



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 18



### MR. DOMMU: So the covered product 19


### determination is a separate rulemaking, 20


### obviously. That determines that this computer 21


### and battery backup systems is a covered product. 22

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### That rulemaking is, you know

-- we've had the 1


### proposed determi nation out, we've accepted 2


### comments on it, we're looking at all those 3


### comments, and at such time we finalize a proposed 4


### coverage determination we will respond to all the 5



### comments. 6


### Right now what we're really focusing on 7


### is within the actual rulemaking that we're 8


### initiating as we consider conservation standards 9



### and test procedures for the covered products, 10


### what the scope of that is going to be. 11


### MR. SHEIKH: No, I think maybe I didn't 12


### ask the question right. Is that once the 13



### determination of 100 kilowatt hou rs on average

-- 14



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 15



### MR. SHEIKH:

-- does that include tablets 16


### as an example, to be part of that equation? Or 17


### is it just looking at desktops, integrated 18



### desktops, notebooks, and 19



### (indiscernible)**1:34:19 .2 ? 20


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, it's going to b e

-- I 21


### mean, it's a separate rulemaking to determine 22

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### what the covered product is. So it would be 1


### what's in scope of that rulemaking, the computer 2



### and battery backup systems proposed 3


### determination. What we clarify to be in scope of 4



### that is different than what we're actually having 5


### in scope of as we consider efficiency standards 6



### for those products. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Johnson. 8



### MR. JOHNSON: I don't mean to be coy, but 9


### why wouldn't the Department finish its proposed 10


### determination rulemaking before deciding t o 11


### invest resources in this rulemaking? 12



### MS. SHER: And I don't think we've made 13


### any determination on how we're going to proceed 14


### in what type of type of timeline at this point, 15


### at this preliminary stage. So we are not sure at 16


### this point how we're going to c ontinue and we 17


### would appreciate your suggestions on that. 18


### MR. BROOKMAN: That was Celia. Doug, any 19


### additional? No? Nothing more. Okay. Jay. 20


### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. So, I just want to 21


### make sure I understand this properly. We're 22

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### going to combine battery ba ckup systems with 1


### computers. Well, timeout just a bit. 2


### So we're going to combine battery backup 3


### systems with computers and we're going to 4



### ap portion energy savings because we don't make 5



### computers. We make battery backup systems 6



### because they fall under the definition of UPS 7


### systems, but in order to do that you're going to 8


### have to apportion

-- somebody gets part of the 9


### efficiency, the other guy gets part of the 10


### efficiency, and how are you going to, for 11


### instance, differentiate between who gets what 12



### levels of efficiency in that product category 13


### that you defined as a system? Or maybe I didn't 14



### understand the characterization. 15


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, I mean, I think using 16



### the word systems for what the proposed covered 17


### product is, is throwing some people off. 18



### MR. TAYLOR : Okay. 19



### MR. DOMMU: The idea here is that the 20


### proposed coverage determination will cover what 21


### is in scope of the proposed definition that we 22

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### put out in the proposed rulemaking for a computer 1



### and backup system. 2


### As we move forward with this rulemaking, 3



### an d we'll get to this later today, we will divide 4


### those products based on utility and other factors 5


### into what we call product classes. 6


### Each product class will be analyzed 7


### separately, and we would consider different 8


### conservation standards for each product c lass. 9


### And we'll get into and we'll solicit comment on 10


### how we plan on dividing up computer and battery 11


### backup systems into different product classes. 12


### Those all will be analyzed separately and 13


### we could consider proposing different 14



### conservation standards for different products 15


### based on what product class they'll fall into. 16



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 18


### MR. SHEIKH: So 100 kilowatt hour applies 19


### to computer systems or individual computer system 20


### categories? 21


### MR. DOMMU: It applies to their propo sed 22

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### coverage covered product, which is computer and 1



### battery backup systems. And then there could be 2



### different standards. 3



### MR. SHEIKH: It's the computer system 4


### that the whole 100 kilowatt hour applies as an 5


### average, right? 6


### MR. DOMMU: Right. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: That was Shahid, no w on to 8



### Don. 9



### MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 10



### Company. 11


### I just have a problem with the problem 12


### with approach you're doing here compared to the 13


### way you do other rulemakings, because if you look 14


### at something like room air conditione rs or 15


### refrigerators they have dozens of product classes 16


### based on what you have, on refrigerators, ice 17



### makers, or frost

- free, or all these other sorts 18


### of things, or even size differences. 19


### But the difference is the product there 20


### is all something that can bas ically go under the 21



### same test procedure and be evaluated the same 22

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### way. I feel like here you're taking products 1


### that there's going to be no way you're going to 2



### be able to all fit them under one, two, or even 3


### five test procedures, and you're calling them th e 4



### same product, even though they're totally 5



### different functions as far as the 100 kilowatt 6



### hour determination. 7


### If computers, as people classically 8


### consider computers, is 100 kilowatt hours, that's 9


### fine. You can regulate that. But battery backup 10



### systems, there's no way you're going to get 100 11


### kilowatt hours and it's going to have a totally 12


### different test procedure than

-- I just don't see 13



### how you call that the same product for the 100 14


### kilowatt hour determination. Thank you. 15


### MS. LOGAN: If I could just

-- this is 16



### Erica with IT I . If I could just add on to that 17



### comment? 18


### You made a practical comment. I have a 19


### legal comment for Celia, which is that EPCA 20


### allows for the grouping of products into a 21


### product class for the establishment of energy 22

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### conservation sta ndards, only if those products 1



### have similar functions or intended uses. 2



### So we would say that clearly battery 3


### backup systems and computers do not have similar 4



### functions or intended uses. But, for y our 5



### consideration. 6



### MS. SHER: Okay. Thank you. We'll 7



### cons ider that. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Joseph. 9


### MR. ANDERSEN: And just a follow on 10


### question to that. Is there a precedent for DOE 11


### grouping things like this together before like in 12


### any previous rulemaking, because I was looking 13


### through the different rulemakings an d I was 14


### trying to look at

-- find any precedent for DOE 15


### taking different products, grouping them in 16


### something, calling them a system, when they 17


### clearly all have separate functions. 18


### MS. SHER: And again, that's a more 19


### complicated question I can't answer at this point 20


### off the top of my head, but if you submit it, 21


### we'll look into it. Thank you. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Celia. 1


### MR. DOMMU: And again, there is a 2


### different rulemaking. You know, we're getting a 3


### lot of questions about what the threshold 4



### criteria ought to be considered a covered product 5


### and we appreciate them, and I think it's great 6


### that people are commenting on them at this time. 7


### The proposed determination, rulemaking, 8


### is to determine whether this covered product that 9


### we're proposing meets those criteria. 10


### What we're really focusing on today, and 11



### I don't want to confuse the two, is as we're 12


### kicking off the rulemaking to consider test 13


### procedures and efficiency standards for the 14


### covered product, you know, here is everything 15


### that we're looking at. 16



### So , I mean, obviously we're talking about 17



### the same product here. I understand that we have 18


### questions. I think that's great. But really I'm 19


### trying to focus the attention as we move forward 20


### with this process, how we should go about our 21



### regulatory considerat ions

. 22

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### So, you know, if you have objections to 1



### the way

-- to the proposed determination, by all 2


### means, you know, you had an opportunity to submit 3


### them in written comments. You know, and you 4


### continue to ask us to consider any new 5


### information that you may ha ve. But really what 6


### we're getting at here today is as we're moving 7


### forward with what this rulemaking includes, let's 8


### focus now on how we plan on going about the 9


### rulemaking, even if you have issues or objections 10


### to the covered product determination. 11



### MR. BR OOKMAN: Tim Ballo. 12



### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earth Justice

. 13


### Just on the issue of precedent. One 14


### thing that came to mind, walk

- in coolers and 15


### freezers, the covered product there is the walk

16


### in cooler and freezer, the sort of system. But 17



### there are individua l standards that apply both to 18


### the refrigeration components, and also to the 19



### envelope components of the walk

- in box. So that 20



### sort of go together to make that covered product 21



### as a system. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm going to 1



### propose we move on. 2



### MR. DOMMU: G reat. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: So to make sure that we 4


### get to this content . So, Jeremy, let's proceed. 5



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Great. So now I'll 6


### talk about the criteria that we plan on using to 7


### distinguish computer servers as consumer product. 8


### So we did get many ques tions that were raised and 9


### suggestions on what type of consumer computer 10


### servers would be considered the consumer product. 11


### So, as I've stated many times, we are 12


### only considering consumer

-- computer servers 13


### that are consumer products to be within the scope 14


### of this rulemaking. And we are considering 15


### several different methods to use to clarify what 16



### type of computer servers are consumer products, 17


### and therefore within the scope of this 18


### rulemaking. 19



### So based on stakeholder feedback we are 20


### considering several inf rastructure requirements 21



### and hardware characteristics to be used to limit 22

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### the scope of the rulemaking to only those type of 1


### computer servers which are considered consumer 2


### product under the EPCA definition. 3



### So one of those methods that we are 4



### currently con sidering is limiting the scope to 5


### those servers based on their ability to be 6


### powered by residential power, using 120 volts 7


### input in a standard wall plug receptacle . So we 8


### got that comment from many different 9


### stakeholders. I think it's a very good one. W e 10


### thank you for it and that is one of the 11


### considerations we're considering to distinguish 12



### what type of computer servers would be consumer 13



### products. 14


### We are also considering several other 15



### methods. One is to consider form factor. So we 16



### could consider the fo rm factor of a server and I 17


### know that that form factor is something that 18


### stakeholders have spent a lot of time in ENERGY 19



### STAR defining what the form factor is. We could 20


### use those form factors as a way to include or 21


### exclude a server from scope to determine whether 22

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### it is of a form factor which would be considered 1



### a consumer product. 2


### We're also investigating other 3


### alternative strategies that focus on a computer 4


### server's quantitative

-- I'm sorry, quantifiable 5


### characteristics, such as the number of processor 6



### s ockets, the amount of memory in the memory 7


### capacity, or the maximum theoretical performance. 8



### So we could use several of those, we could one of 9


### them, we could use multiple of those 10


### infrastructure requirements or hardware 11


### characteristics to limit the scope to only those 12


### computer servers which would meet the definition 13



### of a consumer product. 14



### So we would define what those 15


### characteristics are of a consumer product based 16


### on how we define them. If the computer server 17



### was w ith in that definition, within that sco pe, it 18


### would be part of the scope of the rulemaking. 19


### And if it does not meet those requirements then 20


### it would be out of scope. 21



### So those are some of the methods that we 22

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### are currently considering based on the feedback 1


### that we have already received. So I will open it 2


### up to questions at this time on how we could 3


### limit the scope of the rulemaking for computer 4


### servers to only those computer servers which are 5



### consumer products. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Are there additions to 7



### this list? Are some of the items on this lis t 8


### not appropriate? 9


### (No audible response.) 10


### I guess it's too early to comment. Let's 11



### move on to the next one. 12


### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So, same situation now 13


### with consumer uninterruptable power supplies. So 14


### we are considering methods to clarify the 15



### distinctio n between consumer UPSs and UPSs which 16


### are not consumer products or commercial products. 17


### So we received several input from 18


### stakeholders suggesting different methods that we 19


### could use to distinguish those consumer product 20



### UPSs versus UPSs which are not co nsumer products. 21



### Some stakeholders suggested a method to apply 22

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### standards only to UPSs that can operate on a 1



### standard two or three plug power cord or system 2


### or operate using standard U.S. household voltage 3



### of 120 volts AC, or based on the form factor of 4



### th e UPS. So we are considering those methods to 5


### limit the scope to only consumer product UPSs

. 6


### We're also considering other methods such 7


### as the overall capacity in volt amperes to limit 8


### the scope of coverage as well. In order to give 9



### manufacture r s freedom to deploy any technology 10


### necessary when meeting the standards DOE is not 11



### current ly considering using product architecture 12


### to distinguish between consumer and commercial 13



### UPSs , unless such architecture provides some type 14


### of consumer utility that's not otherw ise offered. 15



### So those are some of the considerations 16


### that we are additionally currently making for 17


### classifying UPSs as consumer products. And we 18


### welcome your feedback on those things that we're 19


### considering or any other ideas that you may have 20



### so that we c ould limit the scope of the 21


### rulemaking to apply to only uninterruptable power 22

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### supplies which meet the definition of a consumer 1



### product. 2


### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim Spitaels has a 3


### question or comment. Jim, unmute your phone. 4



### Let's hear from you. 5



### MR. SPITAELS: Cou ld you go back to slide 6


### 30, please? We would suggest at Schneider 7



### Electric that you also consider form factor as a 8



### consideration here. 9



### MR. DOMMU: Yes. 10


### MR. SPITAELS: And as somebody mentioned 11



### earlier, the emissions class, the conducted 12



### emissions and radi ated emissions class of the 13


### device is clearly an indication by us, which 14


### market we intend the product to be used in. So 15


### if it's a Class B product we design it for 16



### consumer and residential use. If it's a Class A 17


### product we design it to be commercial or 18



### in dustrial. So that's clearly something that's 19


### easily distinguished about a product and should 20



### be considered as a criteria. 21


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Jim. 22

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### Those are helpful comments. Additional 1



### comments

-- 2



### MR. SPITAELS: Also

-- 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ye s, please. Keep going. 4



### MR. SPITAELS: Yeah, sorry. One other 5


### thing. Early on we talked about how a battery 6


### backup system, to be in scope for the regulation, 7


### has to be designed to support computer equipment. 8


### I would question how we can come up with 9


### obje ctive criteria to distinguish UPSs that we 10


### make for other applications, like backing up AV 11


### equipment or televisions or networking equipment. 12


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, I guess you're talking 13


### about the definition that was put out for 14


### computer systems in the proposed determination. 15


### Yeah, I mean, I think what we're getting 16


### at would be potentially UPSs that maintain 17


### continuality of load power for such products, and 18


### that may include other consumer products as well. 19


### So we could get some input on that if

-- I think 20



### it m ay be difficult to distinguish based

-- 21


### consumer UPS based on what type of equipment it's 22

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### backing up, if that same UPS could be used with 1


### multiple types of equipment. 2


### So if there is some input on that as 3



### well. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jay? 5



### MR. SPITAELS: So

-- 6



### MR. B ROOKMAN: Jim, keep going. 7



### MR. SPITAELS: Yeah, so one way to 8


### possibly distinguish is things like televisions 9



### and set

- top boxes don't generally communicate 10


### with the UPS because they don't need to do a, you 11


### know, a safe shutdown in the event of the power 12


### failure that extends beyond the economy of the 13


### device. So maybe if a product doesn't have the 14


### ability to communicate it would be out of scope. 15



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Thank you. That's a 16


### good suggestion. 17


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Craig 18



### Stephens has a comment online. 19


### Craig, unmute your phone. Let's hear 20



### from you. 21



### MR. STEPHENS: Yes, can you hear me? 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you sound good. 1


### MR. STEPHENS: Yeah, this is Craig 2


### Stephens with LG. I'm just making a comment that 3


### consumer servers are a relatively small market. 4


### There's not a large demand for servers in your 5


### home. And your commercial servers are the ones 6


### who actually use the most power. So it seems 7


### like it's kind of counterproductive to be going 8



### after consumer servers when you've got the, you 9



### kno w, commercial servers, your big server farms. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Jay, 11



### you have a comment here? 12


### MR. TAYLOR: Yeah. My original point 13



### when you listed criteria not being considered was 14


### to point out that the reason those architectures 15



### exist is because they offer different levels of 16


### feature functionality to the customer. 17



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. 18



### MR. TAYLOR: VFD, for instance, is the 19


### lowest level of feature functionality. And the 20


### reason we consider that a consumer product is 21


### because it basically, when the power goes away, 22

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### provides power back to the main circuitry. VI, 1


### VFI, all have additional functionality like 2


### automatic voltage regulation, or other things 3


### like that that may be available to the customer, 4



### which is one of the distinguishing 5



### characteristi cs of architecture, because they're 6



### actually fulfilling different roles for consumer 7


### because they're willing to pay a certain price. 8



### Businesses and commercial and industrial 9


### enterprises generally tend to demand higher 10


### feature functionality, and that's beca use they're 11


### looking for, for instance, half

- cycle dropout or 12


### something else like that for computer servers. 13


### So I would tell you that not including 14



### product architecture as a differentiator, limits 15


### your ability to impact this category because a 16


### lot of things get rolled into

-- a lot of 17


### products will get rolled into it simply because 18


### of voltage. Or simply because of the circuit 19



### size. 20


### And I think you might want to reconsider 21


### the product architecture again. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 1



### MR. TAYLOR: I think there is a 2



### d ifferentiation and we have

-- it's the whole 3


### reason we have a marketing department. 4



### MR. DOMMU: Sure. 5


### MR. TAYLOR: They basically look at what 6


### our customers are buying and then they determine 7


### how to best effectively deliver that product 8


### feature requirement to the marketplace. 9



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. 10



### MR. TAYLOR: And that's how, when I go 11



### talk to my marketing people, that's how they 12


### distinguish those characteristics among the 13



### customers we serve. 14


### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So I mean, I think 15


### that type of information more d etails

-- details 16



### on that would be very helpful as we're 17


### considering these different criteria to use or 18



### not to use to make this di s tinguishment. 19


### MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Additional 20



### comments here? Yes? 21


### MR. TSAO: Can I just follow up on 22

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### that

-- 1



### COURT REPORTER: Mic. I can't hear you. 2



### MR. TSAO: Can you hear me now? 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: You're good. 4



### MR. TSAO: Okay. Just to follow up on 5


### that question. So, this comment is about 6


### distinguishing between consumer and commercial. 7


### So is your statement that VI and VFI 8


### architectures would be strictly commercial 9



### customers would be interest

-- like, I get that 10


### there's different utility, but is the utility 11



### different between what a consumer would need 12


### versus what a commercial person would need? 13



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. So you said the word 14



### need. 15



### MR. TSAO: Well

-- 16



### MR. TAYLOR: And when

-- 17



### MR. TSAO: Is that what you're

-- yeah. 18



### MR. TAYLOR:

-- we deal with the consumer 19



### marketplace

-- 20



### MR. TSAO: Uh

- huh. 21



### MR. TAYLOR:

-- it is what the consumer 22

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### will pay for. Okay? 1



### So this i s not about need. Now, when we 2


### start getting into commercial industrial 3


### marketplace, you start getting into service level 4


### agreements, you start getting into tier level for 5


### data centers or backup characteristics of 6



### redundancy. 7


### MR. TSAO: Right. 8



### MR. TAYLOR: Right? And the availability 9


### of equipment. 10


### The VI, VFI category assistance are 11


### designed to provide different utility in the area 12



### of redundancy than VFD does. 13



### MR. TSAO: Sure. 14


### MR. TAYLOR: Which is why consumers 15



### generally tend to buy VFD and not the oth er 16



### products. 17


### Now, is it possible you could see one of 18


### these, yeah, in a consumer environment. But that 19


### gets back to that question then, do we really 20



### market these to consumers? Nope. We market VFDs 21



### to consumers. Why? Because that's what they'll 22

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### pay for

. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're due for a 2


### break. And so I'm going to suggest we take a 3


### break right here. It's five minutes after 11:00, 4



### which we'll take a 15 minute break. 5


### A few of you are fairly new to the 6


### Forrestal Building. You must wear a badge 7



### visi ble on you at all times in the building. 8


### There are restrooms on both ends of this hallway. 9


### There's a coffee shop on the ground floor if you 10


### want to make a dash for that, but go rapidly. 11


### Sometimes they're slow down there. But we'll 12



### resume at 20 minutes after 11:00, right here in 13


### this room. And we've had a good start on the 14



### day. We'll see you back here at 20 after. 15



### (Recess from 11:05 a.m. until 11:21 a.m.) 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume. Please take 17



### your seats. 18


### (Waiting for people to sit down.) 19



### MR. BROO KMAN: Okay. We're going to move 20


### on here. The next item on the agenda is test 21


### procedure rulemaking and we're going to hear from 22

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### Mansi. 1



### MS. THAKKAR : Thanks, Doug. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you get close to 3


### that microphone? 4



### MS. THAKKAR : Yep. 5



### MR. BROOKM AN: There you go. 6



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. Good morning, 7


### everyone. I'm Mansi Thakkar from Navigant, and 8



### I'll walk you through the test procedures 9


### rulemaking section. 10


### So as Jeremy mentioned earlier this 11


### morning the test procedure rulemaking process is 12


### quite s imilar to the standard rulemaking process, 13



### but it can be a little shorter sometimes. So the 14


### first step would be to put out a notice of 15



### proposed rulemaking, which would discuss the test 16



### procedure for computer systems. And then because 17



### of the varied intere st of stakeholders, at this 18


### point DOE is considering hosting three separate 19


### public meetings for going over the computer 20


### section, the computer server section, and the UPS 21



### section of the test procedure

. 22

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### And then barring any major changes that 1



### need to be ma de, DOE will put out a final rule as 2


### the last step in this process. 3


### And then again, similar to the standards 4


### process if there will be major changes, DOE will 5


### put out a supplemental notice of proposed 6


### rulemaking before publishing the final rule. 7



### So, when DOE establishes the test 8


### procedure it has several objectives in mind, 9



### which are as listed on this slide. We want to 10


### ensure that the test procedure is repeatable and 11


### reproducible, that it is representative, not 12



### overly burdensome; it anticipates technology 13


### changes and discourages circumvention. We want 14



### to make sure it's unambiguous , it harmonizes with 15



### related test procedures, both other federal test 16


### procedures as well as incorporating industry 17


### standards when they're available, and that it is 18



### consistent with the statutory requirements that 19



### have been set forth. 20


### So to begin with for computer products, 21


### DOE has observed that most industry standards for 22

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### computers follow the test procedure outlined in 1



### IEC 62623, which is the standard for measuring 2



### the energy consum ption of desktop and notebook 3



### computers. 4


### So regulatory programs like the European 5



### Union and the Australian standards , as well as 6



### voluntary programs like ENERGY STAR have used 7


### this as the basis for their efficiency programs. 8


### So DOE is also considering thi s standard 9


### and then additionally the ENERGY STAR computers 10


### test method, Version 6.0, has additional guidance 11


### to supplement the IEC standard, such as setting 12


### the background image during testing or setting 13



### the luminance, the screen luminance for 14



### notebooks. That DOE is considering at this 15


### point. 16



### So in these two comment boxes DOE 17


### requests comment on basing the test procedure on 18



### IEC 62623, and using the guidance provided in 19



### ENERGY STAR

. 20


### And specifically, with respect to the 21



### luminance values, ENERGY STAR specifi es 150 nits 22

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### for integrated desktops and 90 nits for 1



### notebooks, and DOE wants comment on whether these 2


### values are sufficient or do they need to be 3


### higher, or should they be the same for both? 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: So both general comments, 5



### and hopefully a few spec ific comments on that. 6


### Who wants to go first? Jay. 7


### MR. TAYLOR: So all of the criteria you 8


### listed about being repeatable, reproducible, I 9


### mean, I agree with all of that. However, I want 10


### to point out that you may not be able just to 11


### randomly pick a test lab and say here, go run 12



### this test. 13


### I have noted, I spent a long time with 14



### our labs over in Asia as well as some of the 15


### local labs trying to get all of the equipment 16


### lined up, the procedures lined up, and those 17


### kinds of things. And so it's not going to be 18


### like a test procedure that you can just drop into 19



### some random third

- party lab, regardless of the 20



### fact that they’re ISO 17025 qualified just to 21



### have them execute the tests. 22

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### So it's going to have to be a lab that 1


### has competence in the area, as well as all of 2


### these criteria that you're looking for. 3



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. 4



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 5



### MS. THAKKAR : Thank you. 6


### MR. DOMMU: One point on that. So, with 7


### DOE standards the way that compliance works is 8


### the manufacturer is responsible for certifying 9


### compliance and submitting their own test results. 10



### Unlike ENERGY STAR there are no third

- party 11


### verification or compliance requirements. 12



### MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, I understand. But you 13


### also do market surveillance, right? 14



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, I mean, we do have a 15


### compliance and program

-- 16


### MR. TAYLOR: Right. 17



### MR. DOMMU:

-- that ensures compliance 18


### with any efficiency standards that are finalized. 19



### MR. TAYLOR: And that's really what I'm 20


### trying to get to is

-- 21



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. 22

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### MR. TAYLOR:

-- the market surveillance 1



### side. I'm not worried about whether my lab is 2


### qualified or not, because they will be qualified 3


### by time we start providing you these results. I 4


### really get to when we start getting into the 5


### market surveillance and then I start answering 6


### queries. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. Okay. Shahid. 8



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. I think on the 9


### luminance value issue it's consistent that using 10



### ENERGY STAR as a baseline, EPA has requested 11


### recently about doing some additional measurements 12


### at a higher luminance value for notebooks. I 13



### don't know what DOE plans are for such analysis. 14



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy. 16


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, I think typically, you 17


### know, DOE would not just request information that 18



### is not used in order to follow the test 19



### procedure. So as I understand the ENERGY STAR 20



### proc ess there is some additional data that is 21


### being requested in addition to what is actually 22

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### used to determine the energy consumption or 1


### efficiency of the computer under test. So that 2


### typically not be something that DOE would do when 3


### it comes to regulatory t est procedure. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. 5


### MR. JOHNSON: It's one thing to 6


### anticipate technology changes, which is very 7


### difficult in this industry. It's another thing 8


### to keep pace with them and maintain test 9



### procedures . So could you explain how DOE goes 10



### about m aintaining a test procedure that relates 11


### to a high tech product that's constantly 12


### changing? 13



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, I mean, I think whether 14


### it's a regulatory standard or industry standard 15


### or an international standard, you know, the 16


### standard setting process regar dless of who is 17


### doing it, you know, it definitely is a process 18


### that requires a lot of consideration and input. 19


### So we certainly work to ensure that we could

-- 20


### that our test procedures are timely and up to 21



### date. We could reopen a test procedure at any 22

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### tim e if there is reason to do so. We also have a 1


### waivers process in place where if the test 2


### procedure is inadequate to measure the energy 3


### consumption or efficiency of a product that a 4


### manufacturer could request a waiver so they could 5



### use an alternative test method in the meantime 6


### before we get around to reopening the test 7



### procedure. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Erica? 9


### MS. LOGAN: Eric Logan with ITI. 10


### A similar question. Industry very much 11



### suppor ts the use of internationally recogn ized 12



### standards such as IEC62623; thrille d to see DOE 13


### considering that. And the question is, are you 14



### able to reference IEC and any subsequently update 15


### to it in rulemaking, rather than having to reopen 16


### DOE process. So a process question. 17



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, in terms of 18



### process the way tha t we'd go, we could go about 19


### doing it is what we call an incorporation by 20


### reference where we would simply say that the 21


### regulatory test procedure for computers is follow 22

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### IEC62623. And

-- 1



### MS. LOGAN: Whatever the most current 2



### version. 3



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, and in terms of 4


### updating the version that it would be

-- if the 5


### international version did change we would want to 6


### put that out for public comment so we likely 7


### would do a notice of proposed rulemaking saying 8



### that we want to now reference the most up to date 9



### ver sion of that standard. 10



### MS. LOGAN: Oh, okay. 11



### MR. DOMMU: So we could elicit comments 12


### on changing what the test method is. 13



### MS. LOGAN: Okay. Thank you. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: We have comments from two 15



### individuals who are online. The first is from 16



### Mark Hollenbeck. Mark, u n mute your phone. Let's 17



### hear from you. 18



### MR. HOLLENBECK: Hi, Mark Hollenbech, 19



### Hewlett Packard. 20


### I actually Erica and the previous 21


### gentleman asked the exact question I had on test 22

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### procedures and the need to frequently update them 1


### to keep pace with technology. So I'm fine. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very much. 3



### Donna Sadowy. Donna, you're next. 4



### MS. SADOWY: Yeah. Hi. This is Donna 5


### Sadowy with AMD. I am one of two program 6


### managers for the 62623 standard within IEC. And 7


### for your information we're i nitiating a revision 8


### of the 62623 standard. And one of the things 9


### we'll be looking at is updating it, and we'll be 10


### looking at the ENERGY STAR computer versions that 11



### -- specification for that purpose. 12


### So we expect that the additional guidance 13



### you're look ing at may well be incorporated into 14


### the next revision of the specification. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Do you have a 16


### general timetable in mind? 17



### MS. SADOWY: So let me check that to 18


### confirm that I'm giving you the right information 19


### and we can provide that to you. Off the top of 20


### my head I'm thinking, you know, perhaps by the 21



### end of 2015 we would want to have the revision 22

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### ready. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you for 2


### bringing that to our attention. Thank you. 3



### MS. SADOWY: Sure. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Joseph. 5



### MR. ANDER SEN: Yeah, Joseph Andersen, 6



### TIA

. 7


### Just a quick add

- on point, coming back to 8


### the waiver process was mentioned. One thing that 9


### our companies have consistently told us is that 10


### waiver process, that may work for other 11


### industries. With how quickly as Doug ma de the 12


### point like this industry is changing so rapidly, 13


### the waiver process isn't quick enough. Like it 14


### just won't keep up with our industry. 15


### And so anticipating that is a potential, 16



### you know, break, you know, where DOE could 17


### potentially do its own test p rocedure and that's 18


### okay because a waiver would work. The waivers 19


### won't work in this industry. It's just changing 20



### too fast. That's all. 21



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Thank you. So how do 22

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### industry test procedures, or I mean the IEC test 1



### procedure, how do manufactu re r s continue to use 2


### those in the face of product changes? 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Joseph? Doug. 4



### MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. Doug Johnson, 5



### CEA. 6


### As I think somebody just explained these 7


### industry test procedures, whether domestic or 8



### international are regularly upd ated, there's a 9



### process there. However ENERGY STAR , which has 10


### been the operative energy efficiency policy for 11


### electronics, when it needs to come up with a new 12


### specification and there's reason to adjust its 13


### test procedure, it has the flexibility to do that 14



### in the mean time, and there's interaction between 15



### the ENERGY STAR program staff and consultants, 16


### and they participate frequently in these industry 17



### standards groups as well. 18


### So there's been a good symbiotic 19


### relationship there back and forth. But there is 20


### maintenance required in the private sector, of 21


### these standards, very clearly. I think the 22

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### fundamental concern we have and I think Joseph 1


### and others in the room have, is when DOE puts a 2


### test procedure into statute, it suddenly becomes 3



### inflexible. And it c annot be maintained as 4


### quickly as it could in the private sector. And 5


### it could be a problem for innovation. 6


### And the recent example of this in our 7


### industry has been the TV test procedure. It's 8


### important to note that DOE did mandate a test 9



### procedure based substantially, although not 10


### entirely, but substantially on an industry test 11



### procedure. 12


### But over time this will be a problem and 13


### it's only a question of when. So I think our 14


### fundamental view is that maybe this isn't the 15



### best approach to standards, to man date them, to 16



### lock them into the law like this. 17



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, and we're happy to work 18


### with you as the process continues to work 19



### together to ensure that regulatory standards are 20


### up to date as often and as frequently as changing 21



### technology demands. 22

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### MR. J OHNSON: Doug Johnson again, CEA. I 1


### appreciate your explanation about waivers. That 2


### process does exist, but for relatively slower 3


### moving product categories in the appliance world 4



### there are dozens of waivers that are asked for. 5


### And I can't imagine what i t would be in the tech 6



### world. 7



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, I mean for example, so 8


### the television test procedure that you 9



### referenced, I think, was finalized in October of 10


### 2013. So there haven't been any waiver requests 11



### to date that I'm aware of. But to the extent 12



### th at there would be or there are for other 13


### consumer electronics, like the computer test 14



### procedure that we're currently undertaking, 15


### certainly something that we're very keen to 16



### explore. 17



### And, you know, as new standards are 18


### developed by industry or ENERGY STAR we will 19


### always be open to reopening a test procedure to 20



### propose a change or an update to the regulatory 21


### test procedure as the situation demands. 22

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### MR. SHEIKH: So I have a question on the 1



### test procedure. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Shahid. 3



### MR. SHEIKH: Yes. Shahid from Intel. 4



### So IEC62623 standard as Donna was 5


### mentioning, will go through some maintenance 6


### process. DOE is also a partner with EPA on the 7



### ENERGY STAR test procedures, and where there are 8



### changes needed that are not addressed by the 9



### standard, you know, they're made. 10


### So how is the DOE updates in the ENERGY 11



### STAR get worked into the regulations? Is that 12


### automatic or is that going to be by reference, or 13


### are there going to be two different processes to 14



### do that? 15


### MR. DOMMU: So the way it would work is 16



### once there is

-- once compliance would be 17


### required of a regulatory test procedure, that 18



### would be the test procedure that would be used 19


### for other programs such as voluntary programs in 20



### ENERGY STAR or any state programs. We would all 21


### be able to harmonize around the sing le test 22

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### procedure which I think has benefits in terms of 1


### reducing testing burden by manufacture r s. 2



### You know, DOE does have a role as a 3


### partner in the ENERGY STAR program right now in 4


### developing the ENERGY STAR test procedure for 5



### computers. I know that pro cess is ongoing and 6


### Version 6.1 is close to being finalized there. 7


### So, you know, that is our current role 8


### there. And, you know, that's our starting point 9


### as we begin to look at what a regulatory standard 10



### should look like. 11


### MR. SHEIKH: So hypothetical sc enario 12


### here, let's say 6.1 gets finalized, which we know 13


### is pretty soon. And then in the next few years 14


### DOE regulation test procedures for computers is 15



### set, but then Version 7 comes and then there is a 16


### change. That change then gets incorporated in 17



### the DO E regulation or would that have to wait 18



### until the next revision? 19



### MR. DOMMU: So then what would happen 20



### would be the next version of ENERGY STAR would 21



### then use the DOE regulatory test procedure as the 22

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### basis for certifying

-- 1


### MR. SHEIKH: As a starting poi nt. 2



### MR. DOMMU:

-- for representing the 3


### energy consumption of the computer. 4


### MR. SHEIKH: Right. But should that 5


### require changes in Version 7, how would that get 6


### updated back into the DOE regulation? 7



### MR. DOMMU: Then we would look at 8


### updating the regulator y standard in that case. 9



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 10


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional comments 11



### here? Doug Johnson. 12



### MR. JOHNSON: Just a follow

- up question, 13



### Jeremy. Is IEC

-- or is DOE or any of its 14


### consultants currently participating in 62623? 15



### MR. DOMMU: Well , certainly monitoring 16


### what other industry standards are out there. 17


### That's how we began with our framework document. 18


### Speaking on myself, I'm not part of the IEC 19


### Committee, but would welcome the opportunity to 20


### become more involved in it certainly, up to d ate 21


### as we're learning that a new edition is being 22

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### being formulated, we'd love to ensure that we 1



### communicate with them and I'd like to reach out 2



### to them to make sure that there is coordination. 3


### MS. LOGAN: I think DOE is represented. 4


### Ashley, possibly, but

-- 5



### MR. DOMMU: Sure. 6



### MS. LOGAN: I could be mistaken. I 7



### thought you were represented. 8


### MR. DOMMU: That possibly is out there. 9


### I'm just speaking on behalf of myself. 10


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Erica 11



### and Jeremy, both. 12



### Okay. Yes, Joseph. 13



### MR. ANDER SEN: So just one quick follow

14


### up on the distinction between how like a 15


### voluntary standards development organization, you 16


### know, like us or others, operate versus a 17


### rulemaking process, why that works and why that 18


### ecosystem has been effective, even though th e 19


### standards development takes a long time. It's an 20


### environment where any member company, usually a 21



### couple of them, can come to an SDO and say, hey, 22

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### we're developing this new thing. Let's develop a 1



### standard around it. 2


### And so it's this very open collegial 3


### process. You know, and they can just do it as 4


### quickly as it needs to be done. You won't have 5



### that same openness in a rulemaking process. It 6


### won't be as responsive. It won't be as flexible. 7


### You're not going to have, typically, businesses 8


### coming to the DOE and saying, hey, we just made 9


### this great new product. Let's update the test 10


### procedure. It won't be as responsive. 11


### And then just in terms of the timeframes, 12


### even though industry standards do take time to 13


### develop, it's still going to be faster than g oing 14


### through a rulemaking proceeding. That's the 15



### concern. So. 16



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, we talked 17



### about some of the other rulemaking options that 18


### are available to us and we're certainly open to 19


### using them, whether it relates to a test 20



### procedure or a con servation standard. So, you 21



### know, to the extent that we could all work 22

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### together to find a suitable method using the 1


### tools that are in our tool belt to update test 2



### procedures when necessary, we're open to 3


### discussing ways that we could do so. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Jay. Sorry. 5



### MR. TAYLOR: So first of all, each of 6



### these, 62623 has a n edition. And when Donna is 7



### finished with her next revision it will be a 8


### revision plus one. 9



### If the DOE test procedure calls out a 10


### specific edition you don't revise it until yo u 11



### come in and affect the test procedure. So, that 12


### leaves you in a dilemma, right? Do you put the 13


### edition in there, or do you put the test 14


### procedure in there, 62623, and without edition so 15



### that it revises when the standard revises? 16



### You'll be faced with th e same situation, 17


### by the way, with 62040

- 3, because it is currently 18


### under revision now. And there are other industry 19



### standards, and those are constantly under 20



### revision. 21


### So if you're writing the procedure you 22

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### need to be very careful how the procedure get s 1


### written, or you're going to be faced with 2


### continually updating the code. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: And that's why DOE has got 4


### this expert panel here in the room. 5



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: To receive that kind of 7


### input. 8


### MR. TAYLOR: And the other thing I thi nk 9



### that I'm concerned about is, is that even if 10



### ENERGY STAR changed their test procedure, if DOE 11


### lists the test procedure as 62623. whatever it 12


### is, it's that way until the DOE changes their 13



### code. 14



### I don't think ENERGY STAR can trump DOE 15



### in this case becau se DOE writes the procedure, 16



### correct? 17


### MR. DOMMU: Right. That's correct. 18



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. You know, so whatever 19


### you do, if you want a lot of work, be really 20


### specific, in which case you're going to get a lot 21


### of work in revisions over a very short period of 22

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### time, like over the next few years to the test 1



### procedure. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 3



### MR. TAYLOR: That would be my concern. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Anthony. 5


### MR. FRYER: Just a point of 6



### clarification. I think that ENERGY STAR would 7



### have to use a regulatory standard as its base 8


### test procedure, right, if there was something 9


### that it was measuring above and beyond what the 10



### test procedure

-- a regulatory test procedure 11



### would measure

. ENERGY STAR is within its bounds 12


### to add additional testing. Is that correct? 13



### MR. TAYLOR : Yeah. Anyone could add 14



### additions. 15


### COURT REPORTER: Mic. Turn your mic on. 16



### MR. TAYLOR: Oh, sorry. I was about to 17


### say, anyone, even the industry adds additional 18


### testing from time to time when we come up with a 19



### consensus agreement, safety, EMC, EMI, R FI, any 20



### of those. 21



### MR. SHEIKH: Well, the other reason is 22

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### that ENERGY STAR may have different bigger 1



### product scope. 2



### MR. TAYLOR: Correct. 3



### MR. SHEIKH: So that it will have test 4


### procedure for let's say tablets and others in the 5


### future that might be in scope or it's not in 6


### scope for the regulation. Yeah. 7


### MR. TAYLOR: And that's also assuming 8


### that you agreed to the categorization that ENERGY 9



### STAR started with and don't actually collapse the 10


### categories. That would be

-- I've seen that 11


### also. At least I interpr eted the document that 12


### was published by the DOE collapsing the 13


### categories for computer systems. So if you 14


### collapse those categories then you may not be 15


### able to have the flexibility that you're hoping 16



### to have. 17



### MR. DOMMU: What do you mean by collapse 18



### thos e categories? I don't

-- 19


### MR. TAYLOR: Fewer categories for 20



### compute rs

. 21



### MR. DOMMU: So we haven't gotten to the 22

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### product class consideration. 1



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 2


### MR. DOMMU: But what we're proposing to 3


### do is to divide the covered product of computer 4



### and batte ry back

- up systems into many different 5



### product classes and each product class would have 6



### a different conservation standard associated with 7


### it. So that very well could reflect some of the 8


### categorization, the categorization used within 9



### the ENERGY STAR progr am. 10


### MR. TAYLOR: Right. And hopefully what 11


### you would do is you would categorize

-- you would 12


### make the categories identical to the ENERGY STAR 13


### program and not modify them. 14



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, that

-- 15


### MR. TAYLOR: That's what I'm saying. 16



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, the re are some ways 17


### that we could consider doing that and we'll get 18



### into it. 19



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 20


### MR. DOMMU: And if you believe and you 21



### want to recommend to us that we adopt as closely 22

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### as possible the categorization scheme within 1



### ENERGY STAR , provided they mee t the EPCA 2


### requirements to be considered a separate product 3


### class, then we could go ahead and consider doing 4



### that. 5


### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. So this is well and 6


### truly a matter of complexity. And when it gets 7


### down to what I have to provide to the marketplace 8



### to ensure I am compliant with rules in the U.S., 9


### rules in the E.U., and rules in other places, if 10


### you change the rules enough that it makes it more 11


### complex for me to test and deliver that product 12


### to the industry, what happens is, is the cost 13


### goes up every tim e. My test labs never charge me 14



### less. They always seem to charge me more. 15



### But the fact of the matter is, is that as 16


### that cost rises it means there are fewer products 17



### offered to the consumer. That's what my concern 18



### is. 19


### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Well, certainl y any

-- 20


### you know, through appliance standards program we 21


### certainly look at consumer utility and choice 22

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### within the consideration. So if there's any way 1



### that we could continue with our consideration of 2


### conservation standards that you would 3


### specifically rec ommend so we don't reduce 4


### consumer choice or consumer utility, those are 5


### very much important things that we consider in 6


### the rulemaking process. 7


### MR. TAYLOR: Yes. We simply propose a 8


### process that's, test once, ship anywhere. I 9



### complete test category, whet her it's for ENERGY 10



### STAR or DOE, I complete the test, and then I 11


### could certify my compliance, however I do that, 12


### right? That's the industry preferred methodology 13


### for global shipments. 14


### And most of the industry are global 15



### players. 16



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 17



### MR. TAYLOR: So that's what we would be 18


### looking for, and that's why I keep cautioning 19


### about increasing the complexity of the test 20


### procedure, or changing the basic rules that use 21


### to run these test procedures. And I just want to 22

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### put that caution out there becau se it's a concern 1



### of mine. 2



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. 3


### MR. TAYLOR: And I will reflect it in my 4



### written comment. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 6


### MR. DOMMU: Thank you. And I mean, is 7


### anything that we're considering that we're 8


### putting out here in terms of, you know, at least 9


### in the computer example, you know, using the most 10


### up to date and current version of IEC and 11


### considering the additional guidance provided in 12



### ENERGY STAR spec? Is that at all complicating 13


### it? I mean, isn't that what's already happening? 14



### MR. SHEIKH: No. I think this is good. 15



### It's just that he's probably looking into the 16



### future. 17



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 19



### MR. SHEIKH: That ENERGY STAR is going to 20


### evolve, okay, and test procedure is going to 21



### evolve. And for the same product class that's in 22

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### scope in ENERGY STAR and DOE's regulation, should 1


### there be a regulation, that the test procedures 2



### should sync up. 3


### MR. DOMMU: And they will. 4


### MR. SHEIKH: Because if they don't, then 5



### manufacture r s will have to design and test 6


### products in different test procedures, which is 7



### not good. 8



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. And as we stated, if 9



### we do have a regulatory test procedure that would 10


### become the test that is used both for compliance 11


### with any potential regulatory standard, as well 12


### as compliance with the

-- or certifica tion to the 13



### ENERGY STAR program. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: So that was S hahid, and 15


### followed by Jeremy. And Don is next in the cue 16


### and then I'm coming back to you, Robert. 17



### MR. BRUNDAGE: Just a clarification. 18



### There's a lot of test procedures that ENERGY STAR 19



### has tha t are not regulatory test procedures. And 20



### DOE helps ENERGY STAR write them; basically 21



### writes them for them. 22

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### They don't have the force of law, but 1



### there are a lot of test procedures because ENERGY 2



### STAR regulates a lot of things that that are not 3



### under a minimum appliance standards rules. So, 4


### but they don't conflict in any way, they're just 5


### different products or different things that are 6


### not covered under the regulatory rulemaking. 7



### So there's a lot of test procedures out 8



### there under ENERGY STAR besides th e ones that are 9



### DOE official. 10


### MR. BROOKMAN: Robert, Jim Spitael got in 11


### the cue before you. Jim, you're next in the cue. 12



### MR. SPITAELS: Thank you. It would be 13


### helpful to industry, not only for you to follow 14


### established test procedures, either from ENERGY 15



### STAR or IEC as appropriate, but also that as 16



### those other documents and test procedures evolve, 17


### if DOE had the flexibility to allow test data 18



### under either the old or the new version of a 19


### standard for some period of time so that industry 20



### doesn't have to tes t twice, that would be very 21



### helpful to us. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. That's 1



### useful. Robert. 2



### MR. WHITE: This is Robert with Dell. 3


### Similar to the comment that Jay made earlier, you 4


### may refrain from specifying specific revisions of 5



### ENERGY STAR as w ell, because usually on each 6


### revision you'll have typically a scope expansion 7



### to cover the technology improvements or new 8


### categories or features or things that we do like 9


### that. So I just wanted to say, you may reference 10



### the latest version of ENERGY STAR a nd that way 11


### you're not in the full

- time job of updating these 12


### documents each time as something changes in the 13


### industry. 14



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, I'll 15


### reemphasize that if we have a regulatory test 16


### procedure then that is the test procedure that 17



### ENERGY STAR would use. So if

-- let me give an 18


### example to make this point. 19


### So if DOE decides that only desktops and 20


### notebooks are within the scope of a regulatory 21


### standard, if that is what ultimately happens 22

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### based on going through rulemaking process and 1


### getting all the adequate feedback, and then 2



### ENERGY STAR wants to have levels for tablets, 3



### then ENERGY STAR would still be permitted to 4


### create their own separate test because the test 5


### procedure for tablets may not be included within 6



### DOE's test procedure. 7


### So if products change in such a way that 8


### there is a need for a new test procedure, and 9


### that product is not within scope of the DOE 10


### regulatory test procedure, then it still would be 11



### fine for the ENERGY STAR program or any other 12



### program for that matter, to go about establ ishing 13



### a new test. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tim Ballo. 15


### MR. BALLO: I just wanted to give sort of 16


### the other side of why DOE has to, I think, 17


### reference a specific edition of at test procedure 18


### in its regulations. And I'm not suggesting, you 19



### know, that there are any ba d actors around the 20


### table here. But if DOE were to just reference 21



### that the DOE test procedure shall be the latest 22

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### industry established test procedure, well I can 1


### imagine in some industries the industry would 2



### then go and make up a test procedure that would 3



### make it very easy for their products to qualify. 4


### So I think that that sort of potential 5


### for abuse and the need for also public comment on 6



### any sort of

-- any time a regulation changes 7


### means that DOE, really as a legal requirement, 8



### can only reference a spec ific edition. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. Thank you for that, I 11



### think that's helpful context to provide. 12



### We also do have, you know, statutory 13


### obligations to ensure that any test procedure 14



### that becomes a

-- that's proposed as a regular 15



### test proc edure meets the certain requirements 16



### within EPCA for what must be included within that 17


### test procedure. So we need to consider that as 18



### well. 19


### I mean, having said that, the process 20


### isn't that arduous to open up a rulemaking to 21



### update a test procedure. There could be a notice 22

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### of proposed rulemaking, let's use Version 2 or 3 1


### or whatever the industry standard is, there's a 2


### comment period, we respond to the comments, and 3


### we finalize it. And that's a process that we 4


### would certainly be happy to go through as 5



### indu stry or international test procedures are 6



### updated. 7


### MR. BROOKMAN: And just to be clear, DOE 8


### does that a lot, adopting by reference after due 9



### consideration. 10



### Doug. 11



### MR. JOHNSON: I know its history, but 12


### it's important and the previous test procedure 13



### DOE h ad for televisions stayed on the books from 14


### the 1970s to just a few years ago. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. We're 16


### going to move on now. 17



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. So ENERGY STAR has 18


### an output metric for computers which is an annual 19


### energy consumption metric . And the way that's 20


### calculated is that it's a weighted average for 21


### the power consumption in the different modes of 22

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### operation. 1



### So on this slide in the table is only one 2


### of the possible weightings, without any network 3


### proxy functionality that ENERGY STAR uses for 4



### desktops and other computers, as well as for 5



### notebooks. 6



### So in Item 4

- 3 we're requesting comment 7


### on including these mode weightings that are 8


### specified in ENERGY STAR Version 6.0. 9



### MR. SHEIKH: Comment. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Shahid. 11



### MR. SHEIKH: Where ENE RGY STAR has some 12


### exclusions for products that do not have discreet 13



### sleep, are you planning to incorporate some of 14



### those changes? 15


### MR. DOMMU: Certainly consider it for 16



### sure. 17



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 18


### MR. BROOKMAN: I guess in this comment 19


### box would hope to receiv e some sort of ya y or nay 20



### on the values that are listed here. 21



### Shahid? 22

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### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. I think these values 1



### are fine as a default. But we have a lot of 2


### products in the market that would

-- are evolving 3



### that, for example, may not have one of the mode 4



### po wers weight, you know? So those mode powers 5



### may not apply. 6



### So the type of treatment they get and 7


### prescribe in ENERGY STAR , I just want to make 8


### sure that generally that DOE is okay to follow 9



### that. And if that's the case then I don't have 10



### any concerns. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments in response 12



### to this slide? 13



### Yes, Don Brundage. 14



### MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 15



### Company. 16


### I'm just a little puzzled by this 17



### calculation because based on these calculations 18



### you never actually use a computer 100 percent of 19



### t he time it is in off, sleep, long idle, or short 20



### idle . There's no percentage of active operation. 21


### Can somebody explain that to me? 22

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### MS. THAKKAR : Yes. So the active mode 1


### weighting, basically the long and short idle 2


### represent the computer usage in on mode . And 3



### this is also done in ENERGY STAR because 4


### computers spend relatively little time with 5


### significant CPU use in an active mode. So the 6


### long idle and the short idle modes are more 7


### representative and so it's set up this way. 8



### MR. BRUNDAGE: Okay. 9



### MR. BR OOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. We're 10


### going to move on. 11



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. So ENERGY STAR also 12


### has model weightings for computers that have 13



### network proxy functionality . So network proxy 14


### allows a computer to remain connected to a 15



### network while it's in a low power state or in 16


### sleep mode. And what that does is that it 17


### increases the amount of time a computer would 18


### spend in sleep mode while decreasing the amount 19


### of time it spends in other modes leading to 20


### potential energy savings. 21



### ENERGY STAR recognizes this fun ction by 22

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### providing different usage profiles based on the 1


### level of network proxy functionality, starting 2


### from base capability to remote wake service and 3


### name discovery and full capability. 4



### And although ENERGY STAR has definitions 5



### for these network proxy fun ctions, DOE has 6


### noticed that it's not easy to classify these. 7


### The functionality is difficult to identify just 8


### by looking at the menus or the settings options 9


### in a computer, and often the implementation also 10


### varies by manufacturer. So DOE is also 11



### consider ing two other options. 12


### One is to provide two levels of 13


### weightings. One would be for computers that do 14


### not have any network proxy functionality, and 15


### another weighting would be for computers that 16


### have network proxy functionality. 17


### And then the second option is that you do 18


### not do any usage profile adjustments and use a 19


### single weighting for all computers. 20


### So what we're interested to hear from you 21


### is, is there a standardized and objective way to 22

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### determine the level of network proxy 1


### functionality for a computer ? That's in Item 4

- 2



### 5. And then in Item 4

- 6 we want to request 3



### comment on the best approach to address network 4


### proxy functionality. Should we use all four 5


### weightings, do two levels of weightings, or just 6


### do a single weighting for all products? 7



### MR. BROOKM AN: Shahid? 8



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. Just to

-- has DOE, 9


### working with ENERGY STAR , done any analysis to 10


### look at, of the four types of weightings, what's 11


### predominantly used? You know, has that been some 12



### assessment? 13



### MS. THAKKAR : So looking at the qualified 14



### pro duct list it's predominantly conventional, 15



### which is no

-- 16


### MR. SHEIKH: Right. 17



### MS. THAKKAR :

-- network proxy 18


### functionality. But the other fo u r

-- I'm not 19


### entirely sure which one it is that's the most

-- 20



### MR. SHEIKH: I mean, that would be one 21



### source of dat a to see what's out there. And then 22

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### looking at the product trends to see, based on 1


### the new products that are coming, what's the 2



### trend in terms of the four, which would be 3


### predominant or which one is

-- it could be 4


### trending one less today, but it could be more in 5


### the future. So I think that maybe more some data 6


### needed before you determine whether to eliminate 7



### some or not. 8



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Thank you. That's 9


### helpful. If you have any data or suggestions of 10



### the type of research that we could do, we'd 11



### certa inly encourage you to submit that data or 12


### suggestions in the written comments. 13


### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And Mansi, 14



### would you restate Item 4

- 6? 15



### MS. THAKKAR : Sure. So in Item 4

- 6 we're 16


### looking for comments on the best approach to 17



### address network proxy fu nctionality. So should 18


### we use the four levels that are specified in 19



### ENERGY STAR , or use two levels with or without 20


### proxy, or just use one level that would be the 21



### same for all computers? 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: No additional comments 1



### here? 2


### (No audible response.) 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. Thank you. So the 5


### next is the test procedure for computer servers. 6


### So DOE is considering the test procedure that's 7


### specified in ENERGY STAR Computer Servers, 8



### Version 2.0. 9



### The ENERGY STAR Computer Servers test 10



### method has two tests, an idle state test and an 11



### active state test. 12


### The idle state test determines the power 13


### consumption while a server is operating in an 14



### inactive state, and the active state test 15


### measures the power consumption while the server 16



### performs a v ariety of tasks. 17



### The active state test has been developed 18


### by SPEC, and it's a benchmarking software called 19


### SERT, or Server Efficiency Rating Tool. And at 20


### this point it's only a reporting requirement in 21



### ENERGY STAR

. 22

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### And I'll also note that the idle state 1



### and the active state tests both of them are the 2



### on mode or the active mode for a server. 3


### So comparing these two tests further, the 4


### idle state test is compatible with all computer 5



### servers. But for the active state test SPEC 6



### states certain minimum requireme nts that a server 7



### has to meet for the SERT test to be applicable. 8


### Also the efficiency or the energy metric 9


### for the idle state test, it's straightforward. 10


### It's a power consumption value, but for the 11


### active state tests you have multiple outputs. 12



### And it's u nclear how these different outputs can 13


### be combined to double up a single efficiency 14



### metric. 15


### And the active state test also represents 16


### multiple modes. So for these reasons DOE is 17


### considering only the idle state test for computer 18



### servers. Research has show n that servers spend a 19


### lot of time in the idle state and that the energy 20


### consumed in idle state represents a large portion 21



### of the total energy consumed by a server. 22

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### Then, in addition to the active state or 1


### the active mode, EPCA also requires DOE to set 2



### sta ndby and off mode tests if they're technically 3


### feasible. And DOE has preliminarily determined 4



### that it is not feasible to test a server in 5


### standby or off mode. This is because DOE 6


### believes a server would rarely be in standby mode 7



### because once it is in tha t mode it would not be 8


### capable of responding immediately to service 9



### requests. And for off mode, many servers do not 10


### come with a switch that would be required to 11



### power off a server. 12



### So in Item 4

- 8 DOE is requesting comment 13


### on using the idle state test from ENERGY STAR 14


### Computer Servers Version 2.0 for server products. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Sameer. 16



### MR. KWATRA: Is the proposal here not to 17


### use the active state test at all, and just use 18



### the idle state test, or use a different test for 19



### active state? 20



### MR. DOMMU: Th is is Jeremy. So just to 21


### clarify, we're not proposing anything here. 22

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### We're just considering. But yes, the current 1


### consideration is that we're just going to use the 2



### idle mode test and not the SERT active mode test. 3



### MR. KWATRA: So not have any test for 4



### a ctive mode in the servers? 5



### MR. DOMMU: Well, the idle mode test 6



### would be like the one mode test, essentially. 7



### MS. THAKKAR : So both the idle states and 8


### the active states together are the on mode for a 9


### server. And we're saying to only measure the 10



### power

-- not saying, but we're considering to 11


### only measure the power consumption in idle state 12



### because of the difficulties that there are with 13



### the active state tests. 14



### MR. KWATRA: But ENERGY STAR 2.0 is 15


### including an active state with mode functionality 16


### with a highe r energy consumption. So is the 17


### consideration to drop that and not use that 18


### higher functionality? Is that what you're 19


### saying? 20



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, that is the current 21


### consideration of what we're kind of throwing out 22

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### here as an initial idea. But again, this is a 1


### framework part. It's just an idea that we're 2


### throwing out there to get some feedback on it. 3


### That doesn't mean we're not going to adopt the 4


### active mode test, but that's just what we're 5


### currently considering and we're welcoming comment 6



### on whether peo ple agree with that or we should 7



### consider the other test as well. So that's what 8


### we're putting out there. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jay. 10


### MR. TAYLOR: The challenge for the active 11


### mode test is that not all processors can operate 12



### the SERT tool. All processors used in servers. 13


### So what it would mean is, if you chose to head 14



### down that path, some servers would be excluded 15


### simply because they can't run the SERT test. 16



### MR. SHEIKH: So would this consideration 17



### mean DOE and ENERGY STAR may be out of sync for 18



### the next version ? In terms of ENERGY STAR 19


### adopting SERT for the next version and DOE may 20



### not choose to consider that? 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: That was Shahid. Now, to 22

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### Jeremy. 1


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. This is Jeremy. So I 2


### mean, if we had only the idle mode test as part 3



### of our regulato ry test procedure then ENERGY STAR 4


### could certainly do their own test for other modes 5


### of operation that would not be covered by the 6



### regulatory test procedure. 7



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. Thank you. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments on the 9


### use, what's being propo sed here? Actually, in 10


### this initial consideration using the idle state 11


### power measurement test but not the active state 12


### power measurement test. Additional comments? 13



### Yes, Robert. 14



### MR. WHITE: This is Robert with Dell. 15


### From any regulation standpoint, you k now, 16


### being in the IT industry and what we're involved 17


### with and what we're developing and creating, you 18


### know, I prefer not to have single modal limits 19


### applied to a product. You know, it took years of 20


### us working with ENERGY STAR , many of us here at 21



### the tabl e, to move from modal limits to an 22

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### annualized kilowatt hour. And by following those 1


### guidelines, that allows us to do what we do best, 2



### and that's innovate. And that's creating 3



### efficiencies and tradeoffs and other modes of 4


### operation to make the product mor e efficient to 5



### meet those criteria. 6


### So on the basis of a single modal limit, 7


### and with just the complexity in servers with the 8


### broad stroke, I believe, that was painted 9



### earlier, that all servers would fall under this 10


### regulation, I would oppose using a singl e metric 11


### to define efficiency for a server product. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. What would you 13


### suggest as an alternative? 14



### MR. WHITE: As referenced earlier, I need 15



### additional time

-- 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yea. 17



### MR. WHITE:

-- to look into this. But 18



### that will be in our written comments. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20



### MR. WHITE: Thank you. 21


### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Final comments 22

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### here? 1


### (No audible response.) 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. So finally for UPS 4


### products, DOE is evaluating the test methods for 5



### UPSs that are specified in IEC62040

- 3, Edition 6


### 2.0, which is the method of specifying 7



### performance of UPSs . And additionally ENERGY 8



### STAR for UPSs , Version 1.0, specifies additional 9


### guidance that DOE is also considering. 10



### While ENERGY STAR builds on the IEC 11



### standard , it also has some minor differences, and 12



### DOE will evaluate these difference s and determine 13



### the best path forward, but also welcomes any 14


### comments or inputs that stakeholders may have. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jay. 16


### MR. TAYLOR: Jay Taylor with Schneider 17



### Electric. 18



### The answer is we worked with ENERGY STAR 19


### and on those differences, those are being 20



### considered in the next revision of the 62040

- 3, 21


### which is currently being debated right now. 22

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### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. 1



### MR. TAYLOR: So, you know, I don't

-- I 2


### anticipate that within a nother year you're going 3



### to see another version of this, and it will more 4


### be more closely aligned to what the ENERGY STAR 5


### folks came up with. 6



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. And do you have a 7


### timeline for when that may be finalized by? The 8



### next revision. 9



### MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, the next revision, it 10



### should be about another year, maybe as long as 18 11



### months. 12



### MS. THAKKAR : Okay. Thank you. 13


### MR. TAYLOR: Because it's currently in 14


### revision now, that we're editing and providing 15


### feedback now. And it's through TC 22. 16



### MS. THAK KAR : Okay. Thank you. 17



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 19


### (No audible response.) 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, we're due to break for 21



### lunch

- oh, yes, please. Anthony. 22

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### MR. FRYER: Sorry. Not to stand between 1



### the room and lunch. Just a que stion that's 2


### probably more apt to earlier, just to clarify for 3


### laptops and battery charging that is outside of 4


### the scope of this particular rulemaking. Is that 5


### being considered by DOE and battery chargers, 6


### rulemaking separately or is that part of this? 7



### MR . DOMMU: Right. No, the battery 8


### charger rulemaking considers the battery charging 9


### functionality of products. That would not be 10


### considered within the scope here. 11



### MR. FRYER: Okay. Thanks. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's go to 13



### lunch. It's now 10 minute s after 12:00. It 14


### takes just about a full hour to eat lunch around 15



### here. If you don't leave campus do not leave the 16


### building. 17



### We'll resume at 10 minutes after 1:00. 18


### Does anybody not know where the big cafeteria is? 19



### A few do not. 20


### So, first of all, ple ase wear your badge, 21


### and if you go to the big cafeteria you'll need to 22

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### pass through a security portal and you'll need an 1


### ID to get back in. This room, however, will be 2



### secured. You can leave your stuff here. 3



### You go down to the ground floor or you go 4



### ab out 100 yards in that direction, maybe only 70. 5



### And then you go up two escalators and there's a 6


### big cafeteria there. And right below us, also on 7


### the ground floor there's a Subway shop if you 8


### want something simple; just a sub. 9



### So, anyway, we've covered a lot of ground 10


### already this morning and we'll see you back here 11



### at 10 minutes after 1:00. And there will be a 12


### whole bunch of people heading in that direction. 13


### You can just follow the crowd. 14


### (Lunch recess from 12:10 p.m. until 1:20 15



### p.m.) 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Let 's resume, shall we? 17


### We're going to proceed and we're going to pick up 18


### where we just left off and we're going to hear 19


### from Allen, Market and Technology and Screening 20



### Analyses. 21



### Allen. 22

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### MR. TSAO: All right. Thanks. 1


### So the rest of the presentation is rea lly 2


### going to cover all the analyses that DOE is going 3


### to perform for setting the minimum efficiency 4



### standards. So I'll start with the market and 5


### technology and screening analysis. 6


### This flow diagram sort of shows how all 7


### of the analysis flows together, a nd you'll see 8



### these as we progress through each one. And we're 9


### starting with the market and tech assessment and 10


### screening analysis here. 11



### So the purpose of the market and tech 12



### assessment is to first of all determine product 13


### classes, which I'll get into a l ot more detail 14


### what that involves in the subsequent slides. And 15



### it's also used to identify technology options 16


### that could improve the efficiency of the product 17


### in question here. 18


### The screening analysis occurs after, and 19



### once

-- after all the technologies have been 20


### identified, that could improve efficiency. 21


### Certain ones are screened out based on options 22

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### that either they're not technologically feasible, 1


### they're not practical to manufacture, install, 2


### and service to scale, they would have adverse 3


### impacts on u tility to consumers or availability, 4


### or adverse impacts on health and safety. 5



### So, next slide. This is to note

-- I 6


### don't know if anyone has any clarification on 7


### this comment. But in the framework we're just 8


### emphasizing we're requesting information that 9



### would contribute to the market assessment for 10


### this product. Things like shipments, trends in 11


### product features and efficiency, how the 12



### distribution channels, estimates in market share 13



### would all be very helpful for DOE to perform 14



### their market and tech asse ssment. 15


### Like, I'll pause for comment. I know 16


### none of you will have this data in front of you 17


### right now, but if there's any questions on what 18


### DOE is looking for here? 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Johnson. 20


### MR. JOHNSON: CEA was pleased to provide 21



### a copy for the do cket of its latest energy study. 22

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### And I believe that's online and available now. 1


### It certainly is in our website, but we've 2


### supplied a copy to the Department of Energy and 3



### other interested stakeholders. And it does 4


### contain a section on computers and assess ing 5



### energy trends and technology trends that are 6



### relevant to this. 7


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Does it also 8


### consider backup devices and uninterruptable power 9


### supplies? 10



### MR. JOHNSON: No, because we took a look 11



### at consumer electronics. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, okay. Th ank you. I 13


### was wondering if that other data is available 14



### from some of the other members here in the room. 15


### Jay? Hey, Jay, will you turn the neck of 16


### that microphone up a little bit? Excellent. 17



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. We have only recently 18


### completed our first year under the ENERGY STAR 19



### program for UPS. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. 21


### MR. TAYLOR: So I will say that the 22

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### ENERGY STAR program just received from NEMA and 1



### from other manufacture r s who participate in that 2


### program, the market data. So they might be

-- 3



### there wo uld be certain confidentiality 4


### requirements before I could disclose any of that 5



### information from Schneider Electric. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7



### MR. TAYLOR: So I would recommend 8


### strongly, talking to the ENERGY STAR program to 9



### get that data for UPS systems. 10



### MR. B ROOKMAN: Okay. Good. 11



### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. 13



### MR. TSAN: This is Bach Tsan for Southern 14



### California Edison. 15


### We submitted a case study or a 16



### (indiscernible)**4:12.3 study to the CEC last 17



### year on July 29th , that has a market analysis an d 18



### economic studies that we could share with the 19



### DOE. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And would you say 21


### again who you're with? 22

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### MR. TSAN: I'm with Southern California 1



### Edison, the California investor owned utilities. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. 3



### Other data sources that DOE might mine? Noting 4


### that they're very good at doing the 5


### confidentiality part when they are asked to do 6



### that. 7



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. We do have processes 8


### in place where if there is confidential 9


### information that any stakeholder wishes to share 10


### that there are ways that that information could 11


### be provided. 12


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Nothing additional? 13



### Okay. 14


### MR. TSAO: Okay. So DOE will divide 15


### products into different product classes. And 16


### some of the criteria they would use is the type 17



### of energy use d, the capacity of the product or 18


### other performance related features that justify 19



### different standard levels, such as features 20


### effecting consumer utility

. 21


### It's probably that last third point that 22

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### are most applicable to these products, although 1



### you know, I'l l consider the other ones as well. 2


### And the point is to establish product classes so 3


### that products with different features or 4


### functionality that would warrant a different 5


### standard can get a different level, instead of 6


### just

-- it's not just a single blanket standard 7


### that applies to everything. They're divided into 8


### product categories and so that different 9


### standards can apply when justified. 10


### So we'll start off with the computer 11



### products that are non server related. These 12



### product classes DOE evaluated by look ing at a lot 13


### of different programs including ENERGY STAR as 14


### well as various international programs on how 15


### they categorize computer systems. 16


### For the most part it's generally 17



### harmonized either between ENERGY STAR Version 5.2 18


### or Version 6.0, depending on kind of how old the 19


### program has been running. So for the most part, 20



### you know, they generally have agree, and they use 21



### the category systems done by ENERGY STAR

. 22

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### So I'm going to talk a little bit about 1



### the two different

-- how ENERGY STAR Version 5.2 2



### does the ir product categorization. They separate 3


### computers into desktop, integrated desktop, and 4



### notebook bins. And then within those there are 5


### separate categories that are based on the number 6



### of CPU cores, amount of memory, and GPU. 7



### In additional there is TEC allowances 8


### based on the amount of memory and the graphics 9


### performance and the amount of hard drive storage 10



### space that a computer has. 11


### In Version 6.0 it's very similar. They 12


### still separate it into a desktop, integrated 13



### desktop, and notebook computers. Bu t categories 14


### are split slightly differently. It's based on 15



### the type of GPU as well as the performance score 16


### of the computer, which is the number of CPU cores 17


### times the CPU clock speed. 18


### Again, there are additional TEC 19



### allowances for the amount of memory, a mount of 20


### hard drive storage, the graphics, as well as the 21


### presence of enhanced displays, presence of Energy 22

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### Efficient Ethernet and presence of an efficient 1



### power supply. 2


### So for the most part DOE is considering 3


### using some of these features to scale, the 4



### eff iciency standard to give different efficiency 5


### standards to different computer products based on 6


### memory, graphics, storage, and integrated 7


### display, as well as CPU. 8



### Some features that are in the ENERGY STAR 9


### program that are used as incentives to encourage 10



### te chnology adoption, such as Energy Efficient 11


### Ethernet or more efficient power supplies, that 12


### DOE is still evaluating whether or not those 13



### would warrant actual separate product classes 14



### for. 15


### So the next two comments I'll just sort 16



### of

-- they're both comments basically on the use 17



### of ENERGY STAR for the product categories. This 18


### one is going to talk about the use of either 19


### using Version 5.2 and then the following items 20


### are requesting information about using Version 21



### 6.0 for the product classes. 22

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Sh ahid. 1



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. A couple comments. I 2


### think product categories, you know, better 3


### aligned with the ENERGY STAR Version 6, because 4



### that's the one that has evolved over time and 5


### reflects the products in the market better than 6



### the older version. 7



### Seco ndly on the allowances, one thing I 8



### didn't see in your consideration is enhanced 9


### performance display, on the previous slide. 10


### MR. TSAO: Oh. Yeah, the integrated 11


### display, it was meant to include the enhanced 12


### performance display, but it meant to say that. 13



### M R. SHEIKH: That

-- 14



### MR. TSAO: What's that? 15



### MR. SHEIKH: It includes the 16



### enhancement

-- 17



### MR. TSAO: Yeah. Uh

- huh. 18



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 20


### Additional comments on these differentiating 21



### factors. Yes, Robert. 22

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### MR. WHITE: This is Robert with Dell. 1



### So to make sure I understood you 2



### correctly, on page 53 the top bullet, you also 3


### said CPU. Did I hear that correctly as something 4



### to

-- 5



### MR. TSAO: Yeah. 6


### MR. WHITE: The scale the efficiency

-- 7


### it's not listed on this paper, but you a re 8


### considering the CPU as

-- 9


### MR. TSAO: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I think 10



### we may have left some out on there, but yes, CPU 11



### or the

-- if we to adopt the Version 6.0 the 12



### performance score. 13


### MR. WHITE: Performance. Right. 14


### MR. TSAO: Right. 15



### MR. WHITE: Thank you. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments before 17



### we move on? 18


### (No audible response.) 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20


### MR. TSAO: So for computer servers, again 21


### DOE is considering a product class structure 22

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### that's based on the ENERGY STAR program. ENERGY 1



### STAR separates pro ducts based on form factor, 2


### also the maximum number of installed processors 3


### and some criteria for manage servers. It also 4


### adjusts the qualification levels based on the 5


### number or amount of power supplies, hard drives, 6



### amount of memory, number of buffer ed D DR 7


### channels, input/output devices. I don't know if 8


### it's a complete list, but there's several that it 9



### includes. 10


### In addition to those DOE may consider 11


### setting product classes based on other hardware 12


### features that are considered important to adjust 13



### the stand ard for. And also perhaps a performance 14


### score similar to the computer's program. So 15



### servers doesn't do the number of cores times CPU 16


### clock speed, but maybe that could be folded into 17



### the product class systems for servers as well. 18



### So, DOE requests comment on strategies 19



### for the computer server product classes, the use 20



### of the ENERGY STAR Version 2.0 program. Are 21



### there any other features that should be 22

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### considered? 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Robert. 2



### MR. WHITE: Yes. There are many many 3



### many other features that would be p rovided in our 4



### written comments. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 6


### MR. WHITE: I just wanted to get that out 7



### there. 8


### MR. BROOKMAN: Will you tie them back to 9



### the ENERGY STAR work? Just, that as a reference 10


### point I think would be useful for DOE. 11



### MR. WHITE: Yes . Yes, I will. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 13



### MR. WHITE: Yeah, a lot of time and 14



### effort continues to be

-- and in fact, you know, 15


### I had a question. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. 17


### MR. WHITE: DOE, Navigant, were you 18


### involved in the meetings two weeks ago here with 19



### ind ustry and EPA where they went through the SERT 20


### and the databases in their analysis. Are you 21


### aware and engaged in that work as well, or

-- 22

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### MR. TSAO: Yeah. I know a couple of 1


### other Navigant staff who are working on the 2



### ENERGY STAR program were there, and I don't know 3


### if Jeremy, if you were there. 4


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. No, we certainly were 5


### aware of those off season workshops, I believe, 6



### that they were called. 7



### MR. TSAO: Yeah. 8



### MR. DOMMU: And we will review all of 9


### that as well as we develop potential product 10


### classes. To the extent there is any specific 11



### takeaways or reports that came out of that 12


### meeting that you would wish to provide to the 13


### docket, that would be great, but we will also 14



### seek them out ourselves. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Jeremy. Okay. 16



### Additio nal comments here. Other features that 17


### anybody wishes to call out at this time? 18


### (No audible response.) 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20



### MR. TSAO: Okay. And then for the 21


### uninterruptable power supplies, again, 22

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### considering a product class structure it's based 1



### on ENER GY STAR and ENERGY STAR , you know, 2


### separates and gives different criteria, energy 3


### efficiency criteria based on topology, based on 4



### the output power of the UPS, based on the output 5


### type, AC versus DC, any additional features. 6


### One thing I do want to note is the ENERGY 7



### STAR program includes, you know, a wide range of 8



### UPSs , you may see some like for power over 10,000 9


### watts and such. Obviously as we talked about 10


### before we're only talking about consumer rated 11



### UPSs . I don't think that

-- this is just 12


### outlining w hat ENERGY STAR does because they do 13


### include very high

- end UPS systems. 14


### But DOE is considering using the ENERGY 15



### STAR program as a guideline for its own creation 16



### of the UPS product classes. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jay. 18


### MR. TAYLOR: So the metering is only 19


### applicable to three

- phase UPS or the larger

-- 20



### greater than 10,000 watt. 21



### MR. TSAO: Uh

- huh. 22

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### MR. TAYLOR: So it's not appropriate for 1



### your consumer class products. 2



### And then the communications are 3


### ubiquitous across UPS systems today, they're 4



### either USB or Ethernet i nterfaces. To pull it 5


### out means changing the feature functionality of 6



### the product. 7



### MR. TSAO: Uh

- huh. 8



### MR. TAYLOR: So, that's, you know, some 9


### of the conversations we've had recently with the 10



### ENERGY STAR program. Even with the analysis that 11



### they're perfor ming right now we don't anticipate 12


### it changing. At least for a year. 13



### MR. TSAO: Okay. 14


### MR. BROOKMAN: And did I hear you 15


### earlier, they're revisiting in the span of the 16



### next 12 to 18 months? 17


### MR. TAYLOR: So they're looking at the 18



### market data now. We've pro vided the market data 19


### April, and at that point there will be a decision 20


### whether they're going to move forward and like 21


### cast UPS 2.0. Or whether they're going to wait 22

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### and see whether the market data represented 1



### enough of a change that they hold off for a y ear 2



### and evaluate next year. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. Okay. Shahid. 4



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. Sorry to take you 5



### back to page 52. 6


### MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, it's good. Take 7



### us back. 8


### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. Okay. I didn't hear 9


### anything about your power supply considera tions. 10


### What do you have in mind for this regulation from 11


### EPS and IPS perspective? 12



### MR. TSAO: In terms of whether there 13


### would be a regulation for those or

-- 14


### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. Obviously you're not 15


### looking at ENERGY STAR power supply 16


### considerations, right ? The same for regulations. 17


### You're looking at EPS as it exists today? 18



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, there's a separate 19


### rulemaking that was recently finalized that

-- 20


### MR. SHEIKH: Right. 21



### MR. DOMMU:

-- established new efficiency 22

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### conservation standards for

-- 1



### MR. SHEI KH: Yes. 2



### MR. DOMMU:

-- the external power 3


### supplies. 4



### MR. SHEIKH: And for IPS? 5



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, for internal 6


### power supplies I guess we would consider it 7


### within this rulemaking. 8


### MR. SHEIKH: You will consider it. Okay. 9



### I didn't see that in th is paper. That's why. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Jeremy. 11


### Okay. Jim Spitaels, you're next. 12


### MR. SPITAELS: Hi. In addition to Jay's 13


### comments, as you rightly noted, the ENERGY STAR 14


### program has a very wide scope in terms of UPSs

. 15


### And it only has the se three different power 16


### points, break points if you will, to segment the 17



### market. 18


### You may find that we're going to be 19


### concentrating for UPSs in the under 1500 watts 20


### base, so you may want to subdivide that market 21



### even further than ENERGY STAR did. And th e 22

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### topology rate points, I think, will be very 1



### relevant still. 2



### MR. TSAO: Okay. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Jay, go 4



### ahead. 5



### MR. TAYLOR: We've recently had a 6



### conversation with the ENERGY STAR program about 7


### the quality of information in the database. S o I 8



### would caution that there are some errors that 9


### exist in there. If you see a statistical outlier 10


### when you're doing an analysis it's probably 11


### because it's been misrepresented in the database. 12


### So we're having a challenge trying to get the 13


### right data agai nst the right topology, as far as 14


### right efficiency data versus the right topology, 15


### in to the database and we provided that 16



### information back to the EPA about where we 17



### believe the errors are. 18



### MR. TSAO: Okay. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 20



### MR. TAYLOR: So just a note. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Additional comments 22

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### here before we move on? 1



### MR. TSAO: So we'll move on to the 2



### technology assessment here, and I talked about 3


### this briefly in the beginning but what DOE does 4



### is it uses information about available 5



### technol ogies and possibly prototypes as the input 6


### to identifying technologies that could be used to 7


### decrease energy consumption or improve the 8


### efficiency of products. 9


### And, you know, in the framework document 10



### I think it has a full list, but DOE has 11


### identified, y ou know, several technology options 12


### initially for computers, servers, and UPSs that 13



### DOE could, you know, analyze further as the 14


### rulemaking progresses. 15


### For example in computers there's a few 16


### examples like switchable graphics, suspend to 17



### flash, more effici ent components, et cetera. For 18


### servers, again, more efficient components, better 19


### CPU power management, variable fan speeds, and on 20



### UPSs some semiconductor improvements, space 21



### factor modulation or transformer less UPS 22

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### topologies. 1


### And again, all of these tec hnologies are 2


### initially identified as possible ways to improve 3


### the efficiency. They may be screened out based 4



### on the criteria I described before and I'll 5


### repeat it up here. Some may technically improve 6


### the efficiency, but they may not actually be that 7



### fe asible. Some may be not feasible to deploy on 8


### a wide scale over the entire market, or some may 9


### have negative impacts on utility or health or 10


### safety. Then DOE would no longer consider those 11


### if they were screened out from the analysis. 12



### So DOE welcomes an y comment on the 13


### technology options identified in this section, or 14


### whether there is any other technology option it 15


### should consider. Again, the emphasis should be 16


### the impacts if there are any, safety, 17


### performance, utility, and the cost of the 18



### technology op tions. And in Item 7

- 1 are there 19


### any technologies that DOE should not consider 20


### because of the screening criteria just outlined? 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Anthony. 22

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### MR. FRYER: Anthony Fryer with ASAP. 1


### Just a couple of additional suggestions 2



### for DOE to consider that I think have been 3


### proposed for consideration in California that I 4


### noticed were missing from the list. 5



### MR. TSAO: Okay. 6


### MR. FRYER: I don't have any technical 7


### knowledge in any of these things, but I just want 8


### to raise them at this point and let you kn ow that 9


### we'll also be including them in the written 10



### comments in more detail. 11


### But they include, for desktops, internal 12


### power supply right

- sizing. For notebooks and 13


### integrated desktops, display efficiency and 14


### display panel self

- refresh, motherboard 15


### integrat ion . And then for all computers, 16


### traditional power management. I don't think any 17


### of those things were listed in the framework 18



### document. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Yes, 20



### Shahid. 21



### MR. SHEIKH: On your previous slide, 22

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### please. 1



### MR. TSAO: Uh

- huh. 2



### MR. SHE IKH: So, I'd like to see if you 3


### can elaborate on when you say more efficient 4



### components, because the approach has been at the 5


### system level traditionally for any voluntary or 6


### regulatory programs. I'm trying to see what is 7



### the consideration here? 8



### MR. TSAO: Well, the measurement is always 9



### -- and the standard is always based on the entire 10


### product. These are specific implementations that 11



### could be used to lower the measured energy use of 12


### a computer. Right? 13


### So, are there improved memory or lower 14



### power RAM th at could be used, and that would 15


### improve the efficiency of the computer or lower 16



### the TEC of the computer? 17


### MR. SHEIKH: But that's the design 18



### consideration manufacturers have all the time. 19


### It's one of those things in their toolbox to 20


### figure out what's the best way to lower the 21



### system power. 22

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### MR. TSAO: Uh

- huh. 1


### MR. SHEIKH: Why is that a consideration 2


### for regulation at the component level? 3


### MR. TSAO: Okay. So this is part of the 4


### analysis for setting the standard. Ultimately 5


### the standard just ends up bein g like a level. 6


### Like your computer needs to meet this TEC. 7


### MR. SHEIKH: Right. 8


### MR. TSAO: This option is

-- and maybe 9


### the engineering analysis will spell it out a 10



### little bit better. 11



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 12



### MR. TSAO: Is a way for DOE to

-- it's 13


### identifying a p ath forward to achieve more 14


### efficiency. 15


### Once a standard is actually in effect a 16


### manufacturer can choose whatever variety of 17


### options they can, as long as they meet the TEC 18


### level. But DOE has to come up with a viable path 19



### to at least perform its analysis. Maybe there 20



### are better paths that manufacturers develop over 21


### time than what DOE identifies up front. 22

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### MR. SHEIKH: This is to get to your 1



### candidate levels and

-- 2



### MR. TSAO: Yeah, exactly. 3



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 4


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 5



### comments. There are a lot of options listed 6



### here. Comments on what's here, comments on what 7


### might be missing. Yes, Jay? 8


### MR. TAYLOR: So let me point out a 9



### consideration. And that is intellectual 10


### property. And while I greatly appreciate you 11


### mentioning some advanc ed features of Schneider 12


### Electric UPS systems I'm not sure that those 13


### would be considered generally available in the 14



### marketplace. 15



### At least not outside of Schneider 16



### Electric. 17


### So I guess my whole point is, is that 18



### needs to be one of the other screen ing a nalysis, 19


### is the general availability of the IP. 20



### MR. TSAO: Okay. 21



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. And then that 22

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### certainly is one of the screening analysis that 1



### we do look at. I don't know if we listed it 2



### here, but we do take a careful look at 3


### intellectual property, a nd if there's a path 4



### forward that only some manufacturers could reach, 5



### we would not

-- we would screen that out as a 6


### viable technology option. 7


### MR. TSAO: Right. 8


### MR. DOMMU: Moving forward we want to 9


### only consider those that everyone in the 10



### marketplace woul d have access to, that technology 11


### option to improve the efficiency of their 12



### product. 13


### MR. TSAO: yes, that's right. Uh

- huh. 14


### MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional here? 15



### Okay. 16



### MR. TSAO: Okay. So the next phase of 17


### the analysis is the engineering analysis, as seen 18



### here. 19


### And the purpose of the engineering 20


### analysis is ultimately to get at a relationship 21


### between the cost of the manufacturer to improve 22

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### efficiency. So it's really a cost versus 1


### efficiency relationship. 2


### And the reason it's, you know, output 3



### from the market and tech assessment screening 4


### analysis is the product classes feed in, and then 5



### post

- screen ing analysis, the viable technology 6


### options that DOE has determined are viable for 7


### improving the efficiency. DOE then the 8


### engineering analysis to determ ine what's the cost 9


### related to make those and how much improvement 10


### would it actually make in efficiency. 11


### So we'll go through each of these points 12


### in general. But in general the order is choosing 13


### a product class to analyze, defining what the 14



### baseline is th at we're talking about improving 15


### efficiency beyond, identifying the replacements 16


### or the improved efficiency options, developing 17


### the efficiency levels from that baseline, and 18


### then scaling those results to the product classes 19



### that weren't analyzed . We'll go through each of 20


### these point by point. 21


### So the first thing DOE does is choose a 22

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### representative product class to concentrate its 1


### analytical effort. D OE d oesn't necessarily like 2


### analyze like every possible product class, but it 3


### does focus on representative p roduct classes. 4



### Usually based on the market volume of them. And 5


### so that's where it will concentrate and really 6


### dig in to the analysis. 7



### What DOE then does is select a baseline 8


### model, sort of what the minimum efficiency is. 9


### And since this product doesn' t have existing 10



### standards, it's sort of the least efficient 11


### product that's available. So we start with the 12


### least efficient and then we look at modeling what 13


### more efficient products would like, beyond the 14



### baseline. 15


### So identifying replacements is, you know, 16


### selecting more efficient products or design 17


### options compared to the baseline. And only, 18


### again, considering technology options that 19



### were n’t screened out by the screening analysis. 20


### The efficiency levels are next, and 21


### that's where the efficiency point and t he cost 22

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### points are then identified. There's one thing 1


### that DOE is required to do, is look at the 2


### maximum technologically feasible efficiency 3



### level; max tech regardless of cost. I mean, 4


### we'll analyze the cost of it but we'll have to 5



### look at what is the mo st technologically 6



### feasible. 7


### And again, subject

-- only feasible based 8


### on things that weren't screened out by the 9


### screening analysis. But it will analyze that as 10


### a possible efficiency point, or efficiency level, 11


### and then as well as any number of in betwee n 12


### efficiency levels from the baseline. 13


### And then the last step is if there were 14



### any other product classes that weren't analyzed 15


### in detail that DOE tries to do a good job scaling 16


### the results from their analysis to other product 17



### classes. 18


### So, this is just more of a reminder, 19



### encourages

-- DOE would encourage any parties to 20


### submit data that will improve DOE's understanding 21



### of computer system performance, and the 22

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### associated cost to make those efficiency 1


### improvements. 2


### MR. DOMMU: This is Jeremy. Is there any 3



### othe r questions on the engineering analysis? 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Robert. 5



### MR. WHITE: This is Robert with Dell. 6


### I had one question. I read the framework 7



### document and there's a lot of information that 8


### you will need from industry to make well informed 9



### decision s, cost features, functions, IP, you 10


### know, a lot of things like that. 11


### From reading the framework document and 12



### this is

-- I want clarification on

-- you know, 13


### in order for you to deem something confidential I 14


### submit you two different documents of the same 15



### material, one blacked out and one not. But the 16



### final determination of that information remains 17



### confidential, is in the hands of the DOE and not 18



### of the manufacturer. 19



### That's how I believe I read it in that 20


### document. Was that a correct interpretation or 21


### are you able to keep manufacturer confidential 22

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### information confidential at our request based 1


### upon our determination of that information? 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy. 3


### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. This is Jeremy. I 4


### think what you read in the framework document is 5



### the way t o submit confidential information when 6


### you're submitting it on to the docket to request 7


### it to remain confidential in that, regardless. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Shahid. 9



### MR. SHEIKH: On the item in that one 10



### here, A

- 1, regarding data submission, is there 11


### going to be a specific format, or are you going 12


### to have a call to submit data in a certain way 13



### except for

-- ask about how the data needs to be 14



### submitted? 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy? 16


### MR. DOMMU: I don't think we have any 17


### specific format that would request data in. I 18



### think i f there's any data that would be helpful 19


### we would gladly accept it in any format that you 20



### submit it in. 21


### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug, with CEA . Doug 22

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### Johnson. 1


### MR. JOHNSON: I'm looking at page 53, I 2



### think, of the

-- page 52, I'm sorry, of the 3



### framework document. A nd I'm trying to understand 4


### the teardown analysis step. 5



### MR. DOMMU: Uh

- huh. 6


### MR. JOHNSON: Or work that you will do. 7


### And it looks like you will be using the DOE test 8


### procedure, but not the final version, right? A 9


### working version? I'm trying to understand the 10


### sequencing of work here because if you're using a 11


### test procedure that's still in development then 12


### what meaning can you place in the results of that 13


### teardown analysis? 14


### MR. TSAO: Right. So I don't know

-- we 15



### don't have a slide on the exact schedule of the 16


### process but we would attempt to finalize the test 17



### procedure before

-- definitely before the final 18


### rule, but in terms of the analysis for the 19


### intermediate steps that should do

-- 20



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, as long as

-- 21


### this is Jeremy. So as long as w e have a notice 22

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### of proposed rulemaking on what the test procedure 1


### is going to be we could certainly use that when 2


### we conduct the teardown analysis. 3



### MR. JOHNSON: But that

-- 4


### MR. DOMMU: if it changes then I agree, 5



### between the NOPR and the final rule, that we 6


### would have to carefully consider whether any of 7


### the changes would have impacted the way we tested 8


### the product that we tore it down. 9


### MR. JOHNSON: Right. 10


### MR. DOMMU: So we certainly would be well 11


### aware of those. But provided, you know, we test 12



### the produ ct in a way that helps determine what 13


### the energy consumption is and that test procedure 14


### remains relevant throughout the rulemaking 15


### process then the data could still be valid. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 17



### MR. BRUNDAGE: I'm not a manufacturer but 18



### I'm a litt le confused, Jeremy, by your answer 19


### just now because yes, that is the way you file 20



### comments with confidential information, but if 21



### you want

-- I think more typically what I've 22

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### heard manufacturers do in other rulemakings is 1


### they do a nondisclosure agreement with the 2


### consultant, whether Navigant or whoever, and 3


### provide the information there. And it avoids any 4


### possibility of getting under the FOIA rules, et 5



### cetera. 6


### I think the norm in the other rulemakings 7


### has been to provide information to the contractor 8



### and not directly to DOE. 9



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. Thank you so much for 10


### bringing that up. I think that is a very valid 11


### point. I was answering the question from Dell 12



### about how to submit confidential data directly to 13



### DOE. But as you referenced, there are other ways 14


### to submit data confidentially to consultants that 15



### DOE ourselves, we would not actually see. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. Jeremy, one thing 17


### that I was unclear on, despite all the years I've 18


### been doing this, is how you differentiate between 19


### data that you might s end to DOE versus the stuff 20


### that you might send to the consultant team. 21



### MS. SHER: Well, and it doesn't

-- I 22

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### think that the data is aggregated, right, when we 1



### see it? So that

-- 2



### MR. DOMMU: So if data is submitted to 3


### our contractors confidentially, and sa y they get 4


### data from multiple sources, we would

-- they 5



### would then aggregate that data, they would remove 6


### any names of manufacturers associated with it, 7



### and then that could be the data that would become 8


### part of the rulemaking process and how we do the 9



### anal ysis. So we would be able to provide the 10


### data in a way directly to the consultants, that 11


### is then aggregated and names removed. So as part 12


### of the analysis that's made public. It is 13


### impossible to tell who submitted that 14



### confidential data. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: O kay. Yes? 16


### MR. TSAO: To emphasize that point just 17



### from more like

-- in a lot of rulemakings 18


### Navigant will initiate, you know, interviews with 19


### manufacturers, and at that time if they indicate 20


### there's information they want to share, 21


### confidentiality, then th ey can say we'd like an 22

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### NDA before we, you know, perform this interview 1


### and answer any questions you might have about the 2


### products. And then ultimately the final analysis 3


### that DOE performs is all public. So they're 4


### talking about aggregating. Nothing spe cific to 5


### any one individual company would be revealed in a 6


### final analysis. And that's how it gets 7



### aggregated. 8


### All right. I'll turn it over to Louis 9



### now. 10



### (Mr. Tsao sits down.) 11


### MR. DESROCHES: Okay. So I will discuss 12



### some of the other downstream economic analysis 13


### that DOE typically performs in support of the 14


### rulemaking process. And we'll start with the 15


### markups analysis. 16


### And again, as you see this little 17


### diagram, it's showing how all the previous 18



### analyses feed into the later and later stages. 19


### The enginee ring analysis that was just 20


### discussed is a direct input into the markups 21


### analysis. 22

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### And the purpose of the markups analysis 1


### is to turn the engineering analysis, which has 2



### the incremental cost to the manufacturer for 3


### improved efficiency, and to convert tha t to a 4



### final end

- user price that a consumer or a 5


### commercial customer might see. 6


### And this is done by identifying all the 7


### potential distribution channels that may be 8


### applicable to any given product, product class, 9


### and identifying all the markups that apply o ver 10



### the course of that distribution. 11


### DOE typically

-- and what I'm going to 12


### describe here is the process that DOE typically 13


### performs for rulemakings. And usually the 14


### average manufacturer markup is estimated by 15


### looking at annual 10K reports, filed by 16


### publi cally traded manufacturers. And the 17


### retailer markup is also

-- can be determined in a 18


### similar way and we also use census data to 19


### determine these markups. 20


### If there are additional steps along the 21


### distribution chain DOE will perform a similar 22

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### analysis. And the markups take the form of a 1


### multiplier. Like it's added, or that is attached 2



### to the cost t hat's determined by the engineering 3


### analysis. 4


### And so when you multiply all these markup 5


### factors together, you can convert the final 6


### engineering

-- you can convert the engineering 7


### cost into a final end user price. 8



### This will be done for both the baseline 9



### level that's analyzed , and all the higher 10


### efficiency levels, the incr e mentals. DOE 11


### typically develops both the baseline markup and 12


### an incremental markup, which may or may not be 13


### the same. And again, it depends on the 14


### particulars of the distribution channels and the 15



### products that are analyzed

. 16


### But in many products there is a 17


### difference between incremental markup and the 18


### baseline markup. 19



### And so at the end of every ste p it's 20


### going to be a fairly similar question box. But 21


### if there are any comments, data sources, or 22

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### anything to help estimate the markups, DOE will 1


### be appreciated

-- appreciate those. 2


### All right. Moving on. So the next step 3


### in the analysis is the energy u se analysis. This 4


### is a direct input into the lifecycle cost 5


### analysis, which I will discuss next. And the 6


### main purpose of the energy use analysis is to 7



### estimate the real world in

- field usage of the 8



### products that are analyzed. 9



### The test procedure comes up with a 10


### typical value, and that's necessary for the 11


### testing purposes. But in order to determine what 12


### the energy savings potential is of a particular 13



### standard level, and to determine what the 14


### potential economic impacts are, DOE will look at 15



### -- all right. D OE will look at the full range of 16


### energy use in the field, and so there's a 17


### separate energy use analysis that is performed. 18



### In order to do this, all of the metrics 19


### that are used in test procedure do eventually get 20


### converted into an annual energy use metric for 21



### calculation in the energy use analysis. 22

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### And again, the idea here is to look at 1


### the full range, the full variability of how 2


### products are used in the field. There are some 3



### consumers that may not use these products very 4


### much and some that may use it a l ot. And this 5


### full range is characterized in the energy use 6


### analysis to determine what the range of economic 7


### impacts are. 8



### As the last bullet point shows here, this 9


### is a key point that there are a lot of different 10


### usage patterns that are available in the fi eld. 11



### And DOE will conduct further research and looks 12


### to all data, all field monitoring studies that 13


### are available, to help characterize this full 14


### range of energy use in the field. 15


### And so again, DOE welcomes any input and 16



### data sources or references to any studies that 17


### might be helpful in characterizing this range. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: No additional comment 19



### here. Okay. 20



### MR. DESROCHES: So I will talk next on 21


### the lifecycle cost and payback period analysis. 22

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### This is one of the two main analyses that are 1



### performed to determine the economic and energy 2


### savings impacts. The other one is the National 3


### Impact Analysis, which I'll talk about next. 4


### The purpose of the lifecycle cost 5


### analysis is to determine what the impacts are to 6


### the consumer over all the different proposed 7



### energy

-- the efficiency levels. 8


### The lifecycle cost reflects the full 9


### operating cost over the lifetime of a product and 10


### it includes multiple factors including the 11


### initial purchase price, the installation cost if 12


### it's applicable, any repair maintenance cost if 13


### they're applicable, as well as all the annual 14


### operating costs, again throughout the lifetime of 15



### the product. 16


### The payback period is simply the amount 17


### of time that's required for energy savings to be 18


### recovered by a potential increase in the purchase 19


### pric e. 20


### So as I said before, the lifecycle cost 21


### is the sum of all of these individual expenses. 22

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### And in the lifecycle cost analysis all of those 1


### costs are discounted to a given year, which in 2



### DOE analyses is typically the first year of 3


### compliance for a standard

-- a potential 4



### standard. 5



### And one of the key features of the 6


### lifecycle cost analysis is that wherever possible 7


### there are a lot of inputs that go into this 8


### model, and wherever possible DOE attempts to 9


### characterize the variability and the uncertainty 10



### in th ose inputs with probability distributions, 11


### and then to calculate the lifecycle cost, via 12



### Monte Carlo simulation. 13



### And so the final result of the lifecycle 14


### cost analysis is actually a distribution of 15


### impacts. And so this is a key aspect of the 16


### lifecycle co st. This is normally done using an 17



### Excel spreadsheet and other soft ware tools, but 18


### typically this is run about 10,000 times to try 19


### to get a full distribution of what these impacts 20



### are. 21



### And I'll talk a little bit about some of 22

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### the inputs that go into this lifecycle cost 1


### model. But just as an overall, the main outputs 2


### of this model include the mean lifecycle cost 3


### savings at each given efficiency level that is 4


### being considered for a product class, as well as 5



### -- and this is important, as well as the 6



### percentag e of consumers that experience either 7


### net benefit or net cost or no impact at all as 8


### well as the median payback period. 9


### This is a flowchart that helps to 10


### describe what all the inputs are into the 11


### lifecycle cost model, for those who may not be 12



### familiar with it. In the top left, these are, as 13



### we've discussed earlier, these are some of the 14


### inputs that come from the engineering analysis, 15


### so this includes the cost efficiency 16


### relationship, which then gets combined with some 17


### of the markups that are applied to tho se costs to 18


### determine a final equipment price. 19


### If there's an installation cost that may 20


### be applicable to a given product, that's also 21


### folded in to get a final total installed cost. 22

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### And then in the bottom left, the energy 1



### use analysis feeds into here and th ere are a lot 2


### of other inputs such as projected energy prices 3


### as well as if there are any repair or maintenance 4


### costs. And that gets folded into an annual 5


### operating cost. And that is calculated over the 6


### full lifetime of the product, and it gets 7



### discounte d to, again, the compliance year, the 8


### first compliance year. 9


### And there's also an energy price trend 10


### that may be applicable. 11


### And a lot of these inputs are 12


### characterized by probability distributions 13


### wherever possible. So for example, the energy 14



### use analys is again, is an attempt to characterize 15


### that full variability. 16



### The discount rate is the rate that is 17


### applicable to individual consumers, and that may 18



### be different from household to household or 19



### company to company, and so there is a 20



### distribution of discou nt rates that is used 21



### there. 22

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### The lifetime is characterized, again, by 1



### a survival function, which is itself, a 2



### distribution. 3


### And so many of these inputs have 4


### probability distributions. And again, an 5


### individual lifecycle calculation will draw from 6



### those pro bability distributions. But then this 7


### is repeated many many times, 10,000 times, so 8


### that the final lifecycle cost is itself also a 9



### distribution and is meant to characterize what 10


### the full range of impacts is on the economy. 11


### This list goes over some of what I've 12


### already said, but it's just included here for 13


### completeness. And again, a lot of this detail is 14


### in the framework document, so if you would like 15


### some more detail, please see the framework 16



### document. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Shahid? 18



### MR. SHEIKH: Yeah. On your pr evious 19


### slide on the energy use analysis, I think

-- so 20


### are you still looking at energy use analysis at 21


### the unit level at this point? 22

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### MR. DESROCHES: At the unit level, yes. 1



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. Not at the aggregate 2



### level? 3



### MR. DESROCHES: That's correct. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, additional comments 5



### here? 6


### MR. DESROCHES: One thing I just wanted 7



### to

-- 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 9



### MR. DESROCHES:

-- I did not mention, but 10



### at the bottom here one of the key aspects of the 11



### LCC is that there's a considerable amount of 12



### effort in characterizing the base case; what does 13



### that look like. So this is the case in the 14



### absence of standards. So what does the market 15



### look like? There are some consumers that will be 16


### already purchasing products at a higher 17


### efficiency level. And so there is a distribution 18


### of efficiency levels in the base case. 19



### And the standards case then looks at what 20


### happens if you were to implement standards on top 21



### of that. 22

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### And so part of the analysis here is to 1



### determine what are existing market forces that 2


### may be contribu ting to improved efficiency in the 3


### market. That may include other programs like 4



### ENERGY STAR , any other incentive program that 5


### might exist, or just natural market trends. So 6


### that does get folded into this analysis to avoid 7


### any kind of double counting for any improvements 8


### in efficiency that may have occurred without 9



### standards anyway. 10


### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim Spitaels has a 11


### question or comment. Jim, you're up. 12



### MR. SPITAELS: Yeah. The two most 13


### important factors in the analysis seem to be the 14



### lifetime and the ene rgy cost. What are your data 15


### sources for product lifetimes and energy costs? 16



### MR. DESROCHES: I'll tackle the energy 17


### cost first. The main source for energy costs, 18


### there's a form by the EIA, Form 861, which is the 19


### primary source for determining what the co sts 20


### are. And again, this is split out by state, and 21


### so we do take into account that kind of regional 22

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### variability. 1


### And in terms of projecting energy prices 2


### forward DOE typically uses the Annual Energy 3



### Outlook

. 4



### For the lifetime

-- 5



### MR. SPITAELS: Do you

-- 6



### MR. DESROCHES: Sorry. Go ahead. 7



### MR. SPITAELS: On that part do you do 8


### anything to try and understand where the products 9



### are relative to the states? 10



### MR. DESROCHES: Sorry. Do you mean 11



### within the states? 12



### MR. SPITAELS: No, it could mean that

-- 13



### let's s ay for example that Californians typically 14



### own more computers per household than Iowans

-- 15



### MR. DESROCHES: Yes. 16



### MR. SPITAELS:

-- do you take that into 17



### consideration? 18



### MR. DESROCHES: Yes. Yes, that is taken 19


### into consideration. As part of the lifecycle 20



### co st there's a sample in the case of products 21



### used in households; there will be a household 22

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### sample that gets developed, based on some data 1



### sources including the Residential Energy 2


### Consumption Survey

. 3



### And folded into that is information about 4



### how many compute rs are typically used in 5



### households in California versus households in 6


### Iowa. And so that does actually get folded into 7


### the lifecycle cost analysis. 8



### MR. SPITAELS: Okay. So on the second 9


### part, the lifetime of a product. 10



### MR. DESROCHES: So the lifetime of a 11


### product DOE typically uses information from a 12


### variety of sources, including any kind of 13


### industry literature. There may be consultations 14


### with technical experts, and as well there are 15


### typically comments that are submitted to the 16


### docket to say what a typic al lifetime is. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 18



### MR. SPITAELS: Thank you. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Sameer. 20


### MR. KWATRA: In terms of the inputs that 21



### go towards determining the equipment price, are 22

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### those also project, for example cost of 1



### effi ci ency improvements? How does that ch ange 2



### over time? 3



### MR. DESROCHES: I'll talk a little bit 4


### about that during the National Impact Analysis, 5



### but there is some projection of price trends if 6


### it is applicable to a particular product and if 7


### it makes sense. That's on a product by product 8



### basis tha t that analysis is performed. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 10



### MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern 11



### Company. 12


### I know I'm stating the obvious, but very 13


### few people change out air conditioners or water 14


### heaters until they break or give signs of eminent 15



### failure. V ery few people retire computers 16



### because they don't work anymore. It's because 17


### they're functionally obsolete or out of fashion. 18


### So the survival functions you've used on 19


### other products will not work very well here and I 20



### think you need to be careful about thinking what 21


### sort of lifetimes you

-- how you calculate that. 22

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### Thank you. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Don. Okay. 2



### MR. DESROCHES: Just to respond on that, 3


### I think that's a very good comment. And just to 4


### clarify that the product lifetime is meant to be 5



### the use lifetime, not necessarily the technical 6


### lifetime, which there may be a difference as you 7


### pointed out. 8



### So if there are an y additional comments 9


### on the particular inputs, again, DOE welcomes any 10



### data sources or links to such data sources. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Johnson. 12


### MR. JOHNSON: Quick question. At what 13


### stage will we see the assumptions you've made in 14


### this analysis? When does that occur; at what 15


### stage in the process? 16



### MR. DOMMU: Sure. I mean, so it could be 17


### a couple different things. If we did a 18


### prelimin ary analysis that we would likely include 19


### a lot of all of this; the economic analysis could 20


### be included within the preliminary analysis. It 21


### certainly will be part of a notice of proposed 22

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### rulemaking, and depending on other rulemaking 1



### paths forward, you kno w, it could be part of 2


### negotiated meetings where we're putting that data 3



### forward for consideration. 4


### If there's a notice of data availability 5



### that we seek comment on, we could use that tool 6


### to put out some of the inputs and assumptions 7


### that we're planning on using to get comments. 8



### So, there's a number of different mechanisms that 9


### we could use to solicit comment on those inputs 10


### and it just depends on how the rulemaking 11



### proceeds. 12



### MR. DESROCHES: So we had a break 13


### scheduled now, but should we just

-- 14



### MR. BRO OKMAN: I think we should just 15



### plug on. 16



### MR. DESROCHES: Power through. Okay. 17


### So I'll next talk about the shipments 18


### analysis and the National Impact Analysis. And 19


### again this is the

-- the National Impact Analysis 20


### is the second main economic analysis that 's 21


### performed. And the National Impact Analysis is 22

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### an aggregate national

- level analysis that's 1


### projected over several years. And in order to do 2


### that there needs to be a shipment analysis that's 3



### conducted first. 4


### So again, the shipment analysis, the 5


### point is to project shipments by individual 6


### product classes in order to calculate those 7


### national impacts. 8


### DOE typically uses a 30 year time period 9


### when conducting the NIA, and this is the same 10


### from rulemaking to rulemaking. And so the 11


### shipments analysis will s imilarly be conducted 12


### for a 30 year period, starting with the first 13


### year of compliance. 14


### And this is where there was a question 15


### about projecting price trends. And again, as 16


### part of this analysis, if there are price trends 17


### that are relevant for the particul ar product 18


### classes it gets folded in to the 30 year 19


### analysis. 20


### DOE will base its shipments analysis in 21


### large part on the historical record as much as 22

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### possible. So the more historical data that are 1


### available on past shipments, the better it is for 2



### the DOE a nalysis to project future shipments. 3



### There's also a lot of market research 4


### reports, market trend reports that are used in 5


### establishing the shipments projection. 6


### And again, as I've said before, the 7


### impact of existing programs, existing market 8



### trends if th ere are shifts from one product class 9


### to another that are happening in the absence of 10


### standards, that does get folded into the base 11


### case projection. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Sameer. 13


### MR. KWATRA: So on the previous slide, I 14


### guess to clarify my previous questi on on 15


### projection of price trends, for payments 16


### specifically for efficiency improvements. So for 17


### example more efficient components that might cost 18


### less over a period of time. So is that 19


### predicted? Is that factored in to the analysis? 20


### Or is it just the p rice of the product as a 21



### computer? 22

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### MR. DESROCHES: Again, that analysis, 1



### both the incremental bit and the baseline, there 2


### is an analysis to look at both of those trends, 3


### including the incremental only. 4



### And there will be a determination whether 5


### it's applica ble to a particular product class and 6


### the particular efficiency level improvements that 7



### are under consideration. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Johnson. 9



### MR. JOHNSON: What sense does it make to 10


### project 30 years into the future in our industry? 11



### I mean, what rational basis would there be? I 12


### mean, how could you draw any meaning from that? 13


### Can you imagine 30 years back in the electronics 14


### industry? I just don't see how that does 15


### anything but create a false impression of the 16


### savings or growth. It doesn't have to be 30 17


### since Congress doesn't require you to use 30 18


### years. This seems to be more of a historical 19


### habit than anything grounded in the category that 20


### you're looking at. So, why? 21



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. No, I think it's a 22

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### good question. For that reason we have begun to 1


### also do a sensitivity analysis using a shorter 2


### period of time. So we also, in addition to 30 3


### we've been looking at nine years as well. And we 4


### present that data when we come out with our 5



### proposed rules. 6


### MR. SHEIKH: I think to Doug's point, if 7



### you look a t the last five or six years, sort of 8



### look back to see how this has fluctuated, the 9


### whole energy efficiency and pricing, that might 10


### give you some sense that, you know, even a five 11


### year is too much or something. Right? 12


### So maybe a way is to look back at ho w the 13



### technology has evolved. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15


### MR. SHEIKH: Right? Because then looking 16



### forward 30 years

-- 17


### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Shahid. 18



### MR. SHEIKH: The other comment I have 19


### here is, establishing the base case. Are you 20


### first looking at product categories and then 21


### you're establishing a base case for each of the 22

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### product categories? Or are you doing it as a 1


### whole computer, UPS, or server? What is the 2


### methodology here, because you have a different 3


### energy profiles for different type of product, 4


### rig ht? And the shipments, you know

-- and that's 5


### a pretty complicated exercise because a lot of 6


### times you know, the third

- party studies don't 7



### look at home versus or commercial versus 8



### consumer. 9


### So is this something that you thought 10



### through about how you want to do the product 11


### level base case analysis? 12



### MR. DESROCHES: The answer to that is, 13


### it's a little bit of both. It depends largely on 14



### the data sources that are used. There are some 15


### data sources that are a bit more aggregate. You 16


### know, at a, I'd say just computers or personal 17



### computers. 18


### MR. SHEIKH: Right. 19



### MR. DESROCHES: And some that may 20


### actually have it at a fairly granular level. And 21


### so in performing the shipments analysis DOE will 22

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### look at all of these data sources. And so there 1


### will be some top

- down estimates that are perhaps 2



### more broad, and some bottom

- up ones that are 3


### fairly granular. And that would be combined in 4


### order to get the shipments projection at the 5



### product class level. 6


### MR. SHEIKH: Typically IDC level 7


### shipments are at a very high level, right? Then 8


### on classified type of product classes like ENERGY 9



### STAR , for example, they would not know how to 10


### classify that. And the energy profile is very 11


### different depending on how you slice and dice it, 12


### right? 13


### So you could come up with wrong baseline 14


### assumptions based on how you classify the 15


### categories. So what I'm trying to understand is 16


### that, how would you project

-- first you had to 17


### think about the product classes you want to 18


### consider, and then you have to think about the 19



### volume consideration under each of those product 20



### classes. You know, and home versus office 21


### because the energy profile is going to be very 22

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### different. 1



### So, ENERGY STAR itself will not give you 2


### that projection because it's only looking at a 3



### very small component of the marketplace. 4



### MR. DESROCHES: I think that's a very 5


### good comment. And again, if there are estimates 6


### or assumptions or data sources that stakeholders 7


### want to provide, that would be helpful. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Robert. 9



### MR. WHITE: This is Robert with Dell. 10



### One more comment. Th rough the framework document 11


### you had done some analysis on the amount of power 12


### consumed based upon the various categories using 13


### the E Star 5.2 database and projections to 6.0 14


### and some other analysis. 15


### I would just publically like to caution 16



### that the way t hat manufacturers qualify products 17



### to ENERGY STAR is, you know, based upon various 18


### components in there. You go between, you know, 19


### three to four, now there's multiple under 6.0 20


### categories. 21


### There's a direct correlation with higher 22

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### category/higher cost. A nd a lot of times just so 1



### that I can sell a

-- if I have a customer, and it 2



### may be less than one percent, who buys that 3


### category D, just because I have that registered 4



### with ENERGY STAR , doesn't mean I'm ever going to 5


### sell any of those at all. That's just the way 6


### the compliance scheme is set up under ENERGY 7



### STAR

. 8


### So additional analysis would need to be, 9


### you know, to Shahid's point, is you know, we need 10



### to be able to slice and dice the data to see what 11


### truly is, you know, represented in the 12



### marketplace, beca use my assumption is, or my

-- 13



### is that there are a lot of the lower

- end 14


### categories. If you just see things in ENERGY 15



### STAR because the compliance scheme is set up to 16


### report products in that fashion. 17


### MR. DESROCHES: That's a good point. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tha nk you. Mark, did you 19



### want to

-- 20



### MR. SHARP: (Shakes head.) 21


### MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay. Additional 22

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### comments. 1


### (No audible response.) 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3


### MR. DESROCHES: So the last thing I'll 4


### discuss is the National Impact Analysis, which is 5



### now takin g all of these inputs that have been 6


### discussed, and all of these analyses that have 7



### been discussed so far, into one final model

, 8


### which is the final national level impact of 9


### potential standards. 10


### The NIA and the National Impact Analysis 11


### has two main outputs. One is the total projected 12


### national energy savings as well as the net 13


### present value associated with any potential 14



### standards. 15


### And the way this is done is to develop an 16


### annual time series of all the individual energy 17



### and economic impacts. And again, usi ng all of 18


### the inputs that have been developed and are fed 19


### into the National Impact Analysis. 20


### So we use the shipments model that's been 21


### developed and again DOE has typically done this 22

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### over a 30 year period. And the LCC outputs, the 1


### mean LCC savings that ar e developed in the LCC 2


### analysis are also used as inputs in the National 3


### Impact Analysis for the total of install costs 4


### and the energy use in any given year. 5


### And all of these annual impacts are 6


### aggregated for all the years of the analysis 7


### period. 8



### In terms of the national energy savings, 9


### that's typically reported both in the site 10


### savings, so that's electricity savings at the 11


### plug, as well as the full fuel cycle savings. So 12


### this includes the energy to not only generate the 13


### necessary electricity, but also th e energy that 14



### is used to extract the fuel to deliver to the 15



### power plant to generate the electricity. So 16


### that's what the full fuel cycle includes, and 17


### it's the full cycle for delivering electricity to 18



### the end user. 19


### The economic impacts are reported in a 20



### na tional net present value in cost in real 21


### dollars, and the NIA typically reports this using 22

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### two discount rates. There's a three percent 1


### discount rate and a seven percent discount rate. 2


### And this in accordance with guidelines set out by 3



### the Office of Manage ment and Budget for 4


### regulatory analysis to use these two discount 5



### rates. 6


### The next couple slides are just going to 7


### show kind of a graphical representation of what 8



### it looks like. And as shown here there is, for 9


### every year in the analysis period, the annual 10


### energy consumption is calculated and there is a 11


### stock model that is fed into the National Impact 12


### Analysis to determine how many units are affected 13


### by a standard in any given year. 14


### Obviously the shipments analysis feeds 15



### into this as well. And then the an nual energy 16


### consumption in the base case is aggregated to 17


### come up with a cumul ative energy use, and 18


### similarly there's a standards case to determine 19


### what the cumulative energy use is. And then both 20



### of those are converted to full fuel cycles to get 21



### the tota l national energy savings. 22

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### And again, I've said this before, but the 1


### base case will have an energy efficiency 2



### distribution built into it so that there are some 3


### portion of the users in the base case that are 4


### already purchasing or using products at a higher 5


### efficiency level. And so they may not be 6


### impacted by a particular standard level. 7


### The same thing happens with the net 8


### present value where, again, all the total 9


### equipment and operating costs are aggregated for 10


### every year in the analysis period in both the 11


### base case and the standards case, and using the 12


### three percent and seven percent discount rates, 13



### they are converted to a net present value. 14


### And those are the two main outputs of the 15


### National Impact Analysis. 16



### MR. SHEIKH: Question. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Shahid. 18


### MR. SHEIKH: On this long

- term analysis, 19



### which as I discussed earlier, could have issues 20


### what are the considerations for energy efficiency 21


### improvements year to year? Is this simply 22

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### looking at some percentage? Or looking at how 1


### the products are evolving, looking at historical 2


### trends, or you just look at a flat number to say, 3


### okay, we're going to apply three percent or five 4


### percent improvements or year over year. What is 5


### the mechanism for us to even see a meaningful 6


### outcome out of this if we really don't have a 7


### good sense in terms of where, you know, the 8


### products are going that far out? 9



### MR. DESROCHES: So I can speak to some of 10



### the other analyses that have been performed for 11


### other products, where the historical trend was 12


### fairly flat. And so the National I mpact Analysis 13


### had a fairly flat energy efficiency trend. 14


### For some other products the historical 15


### record in the data source has actually suggested 16


### a fairly strong upward improvement in the base 17


### case. And so the base case did actually 18


### incorporate a rising trend in energy efficiency. 19


### And so with regards to this product, 20


### again, as we will be looking at

-- 21



### MR. SHEIKH: So you got

-- 22

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### MR. DESROCHES:

-- the data sources are

- 1



### - 2



### MR. SHEIKH: So you have a base case, you 3



### have a form factor evolution, that's anothe r 4


### variable, you have a refresh rate that may be 5


### changing depending on your, you know

-- you know, 6


### some years, depending on the economic factors, 7



### the refresh rates, and all that. So is that all 8



### built into the model? 9



### MR. DESROCHES: As much as we can, yes. 10



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Johnson. 12


### MR. JOHNSON: If you're doing this FFC 13


### analysis where you're looking at secondary and 14


### tertiary benefits from regulation, why wouldn't 15


### you, when it comes to IT products, look at the 16


### secondary energy savings be nefits of using IT 17



### products? 18


### By that I mean, for example, in a home 19


### office environment that might be the reason why 20


### you don't consume fuel to drive back and forth to 21


### the office, and that's highly quantifiable. So 22

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### why wouldn't you take that into account in your 1


### analysis? 2



### MR. DESROCHES: Do you guys want to

-- 3



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. No, I think that is a 4


### valid point that, you know, we're really trying 5


### to look at the entire economic impact of 6



### standards. So to the extent that the standards 7



### that we are considerin g would have some type of 8


### impact in other ways that we're not considering, 9


### we certainly would invite you to present those 10


### impacts to us as part of your comments. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 12



### Yes. Tim Ballo. 13



### MR. BALLO: Yeah. Just on that i ssue, 14


### though, it's got to be an impact

-- to have any 15


### meaningful use in the analysis it's got to be an 16


### impact that varies with the efficiency of the 17



### product. 18



### I don't know that

-- maybe there is some 19



### way but I don't understand how someone's computer 20


### being more efficient would lead them to not use 21


### it for a telecommuting situation but instead 22

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### drive to work. So, yeah. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Johnson. 2



### MR. JOHNSON: I'll be happy to share a 3


### 2008 study and the one that we're producing right 4


### now which does quantify this and shows you with 5


### some degree of, I guess comprehensiveness, how 6


### the use of these electronics at home saves energy 7


### in the area of telecommuting or e

- commerce 8


### activities or the quantifiable savings and 9


### emissions types savings going on there. There 10



### ha ve been, and it's even more than 2008. So 11


### that's why we're taking a fresh look at it. 12


### So I appreciate the invitation to supply 13


### that input but I think if you're looking at 14


### these, you know, upstream sources of savings for 15


### the regulation you should be lookin g at the, kind 16


### of the closer to home, literally, opportunities 17


### for saving energy by using these products, right? 18


### So you've set up a home office so that 19



### you don't have to commute to work. And that has 20


### a savings benefit in terms of fuel and emissions 21



### from v ehicles. So, it seems to me if you're 22

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### taking this big analysis or FFC cycle you've got 1


### to look at it both ways. 2



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. No, I think that's a 3


### valid point. I'm just trying to focus on, you 4


### know, certainly there's many great ways that 5



### information technology products could help save 6


### energy by allowing things like telecommuting, 7


### like you just mentioned. 8


### When we look at efficiency standards for 9



### them, how did those benefits translate into our 10


### consideration of what would happen in the base 11



### case in the absence of doing conservation 12



### standards, versus a scenario where we have a 13


### standard level in place. Would those savings 14


### that are generated from using information 15


### technology products translate into either one of 16


### those situations, and how so? How would any of 17


### those other savings differ if we have standards 18



### versus we don't have standards? 19


### I think on like the full fuel cycle 20


### point, was saying okay, well, you know, if you 21


### save a unit of energy in a household, how much is 22

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### then saved because there's one less u nit of 1


### electricity that has to be generated and 2



### transmitted to that household? And what are all 3


### the upstream savings because of the downstream 4


### consequence of saving a unit of electricity? 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Jay? 6


### MR. TAYLOR: So, I'm going to beg your 7



### pa rdon. But the public policy right now is 8


### towards pushing electronic medical records. 9


### Public policy. I'm talking about U.S. Government 10


### policy. It's towards pushing more IT 11


### productivity into the economy. 12


### Why? Because it does exactly what Doug 13



### was descri bing. It offsets through other areas. 14



### It either improves the productivity of 15


### individuals, it offsets in distance learning, it 16


### offsets in the ability to for CDC for instance, 17


### to analyze all these electronic records from 18


### people to do a population analysis for disease 19



### and disease control. 20


### So we have public policies driving a lot 21


### of IT. They're driving a lot of IT because of 22

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### the productivity improvements and the offsets 1


### they get and if

-- consumption of energy in the 2



### economy. 3


### So if you're going to conside r the full 4



### fuel cycle cost one way, you also have to 5


### consider the impact that IT equipment has on the 6


### economy on the other side. I think that's only 7



### fair. 8


### MR. SHEIKH: Well, I think just to your 9


### point, Jeremy, that you were saying, how would 10



### that change t he base case versus

-- I think if 11


### there's going to be more and more of what Jay was 12


### describing, you're going to probably need more 13


### such equipment, which if you just look at that in 14


### isolation means you may say, oh, it's going to 15



### mean more energy because we have more of these 16



### units. 17


### But if you don't take into consideration 18


### all what it's doing for the rest of the economy 19



### an d have no way to credit that into the equation 20


### then you may just get the picture of, hey, this 21


### is going to increase overall energy in this 22

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### segment, without consideration of what the 1


### benefits are to the rest of the economy. 2


### MR. TAYLOR: The economic analysis

-- 3



### COURT REPORTER: Mic. 4


### MR. TAYLOR: The economic analysis only 5



### includes the downside costs. It doesn't include 6


### the upside costs. 7



### MR. B ROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. Uh

- huh. Okay. 8



### MR. DOMMU: Well, I mean, I think these 9


### are all valid points and trying to think of ways 10


### that you would suggest these other benefits be 11


### incorporated into our analysis. If you have any 12


### ideas on how to do that I'd certainly welcome 13



### them. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Joseph. 15



### MR. ANDERSEN: This is kind of a similar 16


### question. In the analysis

-- and I appreciate 17


### all the rigor, you know, that DOE and the 18


### consultants go through with this process. 19



### One thing that's tough with our industry 20


### is a lot of other products that are covered by 21



### DOE don't change over 30 years. You know, so 22

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### like showerheads and toilets and stuff like that. 1


### Thirty years from now we can look in the future 2


### and they're still going to be doing the same 3


### thing, rig ht? 4



### If we look at like, a server, for 5



### example, or a computer, or a tablet, or a laptop, 6


### I don't think we can say the same thing five 7


### years from now. You know, it may have some of 8



### the same

-- you know, it's got a user input and a 9



### screen, but there may be o ther functionalities 10


### that are being converged into that. 11



### And that's where the concern is, is if 12



### when you come and set an energy level, you know, 13


### with our engineers, and you hand something to 14


### them and say, this box from hence forth cannot 15



### consume any more than X amount of energy, they're 16


### going to design based on those standards. And so 17


### it's going to keep them from converging 18



### additional functionalities in the future into 19



### that device. 20


### And so what I'm wondering is, if there's 21



### a cost associated with that. Like if you look at 22

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### just like a smart phone, for example, in my smart 1



### phone I have, you know, 20 apps that 20 years ago 2


### would have cost me $10,000 in equipment to get, 3


### that I just can use now with my smart phone. 4


### It's not an exaggeration. 5



### There's a cost to that. And so my 6


### concern with this, specifically with the servers, 7


### moving forward servers are going to need to 8


### converge more things into them, and I'm not sure 9


### if that's taken into account through this 10


### process. This analysis is

-- because you can't. 11


### I mean, how do you anticipate technology changes. 12


### And so it's a general observation/criticism of 13


### applying EPCA to IT equipment is, it's not going 14


### to be the same 10 years from now. You know, like 15


### other equipment will be. 16



### And so I'm not sure how is that ta ken 17



### into account? Where would we

-- how would we 18


### bring that to you in a way that, you know

-- 19



### because we'd have to guess well, a server, maybe 20


### it will be combined with, you know, additional 21


### functionality. You know, I don't know. We'd 22

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### just be guessing. You know, but I think there's 1



### a toss there and I think it's real. 2


### So it's just an observation on

-- that's 3


### part of this isn't being captured in the analysis 4



### that could have real cost for consumers. 5


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah, so I think 6



### the Department wou ld be open to receiving your 7


### thoughts on how those benefits might be included. 8



### Doug Johnson. 9


### MR. JOHNSON: Quick question. Is that 10


### model publically available, what you referred to 11


### a few slides ago, the Excel spreadsheet? It 12



### looked like it was in the form of a

-- 13


### MR. DESROCHES: I'm sorry, which model? 14



### MR. JOHNSON: Oh, pardon me. Just for

-- 15



### MS. LOGAN: Is it Monte Carlo

-- 16



### MR. JOHNSON: Well, it's the National 17


### Analysis. 18



### MR. DESROCHES: Yeah. The best 19


### suggestion is that the appliance standard's 20



### website h as all the models that have been used 21


### for previous rulemakings. And the NIA and the 22

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### LCC, the structure is very similar for all the 1


### different products. So, that's all publically 2



### available on

-- 3


### MR. JOHNSON: It is? Yeah. Okay. Thank 4



### you. 5



### MR. DESROCHE S: Yeah, on the website. 6



### MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. 7



### MR. SHEIKH: Shahid from Intel. 8


### Including the raw data, or

-- 9


### MR. DESROCHES: You would have to dig 10


### into the technical support documents that 11



### describe where all the data sources

-- describe 12



### all the data so urces and where everything comes 13



### from. 14


### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Shahid. 15



### Okay. 16


### MR. DESROCHES: So the final point I'll 17


### make before wrapping up is one of the key 18


### components in the National Impact Analysis. It's 19


### to determine exactly how the distribu tion of 20


### product efficiencies changes from the base case 21


### to when you consider a standards case, when the 22

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### standards comes into effect. How does that 1


### change the distribution of efficiencies in the 2



### market? 3



### In the past DOE has used what are known 4



### as "roll

- up" or "shift" scenarios, where any 5



### consumers that are below the considered standards 6


### case either just simply roll

- up to the minimum 7



### case that meets the standard. Or perhaps the 8


### entire market distribution just shifts over so 9



### that the minimum is now the minimu m standards 10



### case. 11



### More recent analyses have incorporated a 12


### consumer choice model, which is grounded in 13



### economic literature and there's some data sources 14



### that are used to calibrate that model. And so 15


### DOE will evaluate whether one of these approaches 16



### is a better fit for this particular product. And 17


### again, DOE welcomes any comments on which one of 18


### these may be more appropriate. 19



### MR. SHEIKH: Shahid from Intel. Back to 20


### that earlier discussion, if DOE is open to sort 21


### of looking at overhauling this whole anal ysis by 22

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### looking at, like we discussed, the non

- segment 1



### considerations like the rest of the economic 2


### factors and maybe work with the stakeholders to 3


### sort of establish a new methodology, a new 4


### baseline for doing this type of analysis. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy

. 6



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah. I mean, so I mean, as 7


### I explained this morning, you know, EPCA directs 8


### us to look at those seven factors of assessing

-- 9


### MR. SHEIKH: Right. 10



### MR. DOMMU:

-- the economics and 11


### technology. So, you know, these are the analysis 12



### that we per form in order to do those. But if you 13


### have other suggestions of analysis that we could 14



### do in addition to them or instead of them to 15


### assess those seven factors, we certainly could 16


### consider your ideas. 17


### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. Looking beyond the 18


### equipment that y ou have in mind, at least outside 19



### of that, you know

-- today you are just focusing 20


### on the products that you have is what

-- you're 21


### not looking at the benefits of those products for 22

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### the rest of the economy, but would that be 1


### incorporated into the model some how? 2



### MR. DOMMU: Yeah, to the extent that it 3



### meets those EPCA seven factors and allows us to 4


### assess the impact of standards in a standards 5



### case versus a no

- standards case. 6



### MR. SHEIKH: Okay. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: You see the comment box 8



### there, Item 13

- 1. Additio nal comments on NIA, 9


### National Impact Analysis? 10


### (No audible response.) 11


### MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional. Okay. 12


### That's the last slide for presentation. 13


### I wanted to provide an opportunity for 14


### anybody that wishes to make concluding remarks, 15



### summary state ments, issues you don't think that 16


### have been adequately covered during the course of 17


### the meeting today before we describe next steps? 18


### (No audible response.) 19


### MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional at this 20


### time. So then back to Jeremy. 21



### MR. DOMMU: Okay. Great. So thank you 22

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### all for being here. I just have a couple quick 1


### slides to go through of next steps. 2



### On this slide here is how to submit 3


### written comments. So today, we've had the 4


### opportunity to hear from many of you at the 5


### meeting and now we'll have the wri tten comment 6


### period which is closing on October 2nd. This 7


### slide just shows how to submit comments 8


### officially to the docket either via the e

- mail 9



### address that is here, which is also in the notice 10


### itself. Or comments could be submitted directly 11


### via regulat ions.gov. There are methods to submit 12


### them via postal service or hand delivery, but I 13


### certainly would recommend you using the 14


### regulations.gov or e

- mail option. 15


### So again, you know, include some of the 16



### relevant information that is included in the 17



### notice and replicated on this slide to submit the 18


### written comments that you may have. 19


### Here are just a couple relevant URLs. 20


### There's links to the computer systems product 21


### page and rulemaking page on DOE's websites. You 22

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### will find direct links here to the public 1



### tr anscript for this meeting which should be 2



### available in a week or two. There are 3


### presentations that we went over today are already 4



### posted. 5


### The rulemaking docket, the last link 6



### here, contains all documents associated with the 7


### rulemaking and that is where pu blic comments, 8


### written comments will be available once they are 9


### received. So once we get comments all comments 10


### that we receive are made publically available and 11


### you'll be able to review other comments on the 12


### rulemaking docket. 13


### And then finally here is m y contact 14



### information and Celia's contact information if 15


### you have any questions at all about the process, 16



### about things that we went over today, questions 17


### you may have, other things you want to discuss, 18


### here is my contact information and Celia's 19



### contact inf ormation. 20


### So thank you all again so much for being 21


### here. I think we had a very productive meeting 22

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### today. Thank you for coming in and I look 1


### forward to working with all of you as we proceed 2


### with this rulemaking. Thank you. 3



### (Whereupon, at 2:43 p.m. the meeting was 4


### adjourned.) 5

6

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### CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER

2 

### I, Jennifer A. Metcalf, the officer

3 

### before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken

4 

### in the matter of United States Department of

s Energy, Framework Public Meeting for Computer 

### &

6 

### Battery Backup Systems, held on July 31, 2014 at

1 

### 9:00 a.m. at 1000 Independence Avenue, SW, Room



### s 8E-089, Washington, DC, do hereby certify that

9 

### the foregoing transcript is a true and correct

10 

### record of the proceedings; that said proceedings

11 

### were taken by me and thereafter reduced to

12 

### typewriting under my supervision; and that I am

13 

### neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by

14 

### any of the parties to this case and have no

1s 

### interest, financial or otherwise, in its outcome.

16

17

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19

20

21

22 

### Court Reporter