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S. HRG. 115–3 

NOMINATION OF DR. BENJAMIN CARSON 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON 

THE NOMINATION OF DR. BENJAMIN CARSON, OF MICHIGAN, TO BE 

SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT 

JANUARY 12, 2017 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs 

( 

Available at: http://www.fdsys.gov/ 

COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS 

MIKE CRAPO, Idaho, Chairman 

RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama 

BOB CORKER, Tennessee 

PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania 

DEAN HELLER, Nevada 

TIM SCOTT, South Carolina 

BEN SASSE, Nebraska 

TOM COTTON, Arkansas 

MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota 

DAVID PERDUE, Georgia 

THOM TILLIS, North Carolina 

JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana 

SHERROD BROWN, Ohio 

JACK REED, Rhode Island 

ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey 

JON TESTER, Montana 

MARK R. WARNER, Virginia 

ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

JOE DONNELLY, Indiana 

BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii 

CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland 

CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada 

GREGG RICHARD, Staff Director 

MARK POWDEN, Democratic Staff Director 

ELAD ROISMAN, Chief Counsel 

TRAVIS HILL, Senior Counsel 

GRAHAM STEELE, Democratic Chief Counsel 

LAURA SWANSON, Democratic Deputy Staff Director 

BETH COOPER, Democratic Professional Staff Member 

ERIN BARRY, Democratic Professional Staff Member 

DAWN RATLIFF, Chief Clerk 

SHELVIN SIMMONS, IT Director 

JIM CROWELL, Editor 

(II)

C O N T E N T S 

THURSDAY, JANUARY 12, 2017 

Page 

Opening statement of Chairman Crapo ................................................................. 1 

Opening statements, comments, or prepared statements of: 

Senator Brown .................................................................................................. 3 

WITNESS 

Marco Rubio, Senator from the State of Florida ................................................... 5 

NOMINEE 

Dr. Benjamin Carson, of Michigan, to be Secretary, Department of Housing 

and Urban Development ...................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 49 

Biographical sketch of nominee ....................................................................... 53 

Responses to written questions of: 

Senator Brown ........................................................................................... 91 

Senator Shelby ........................................................................................... 102 

Senator Heller ........................................................................................... 104 

Senator Sasse ............................................................................................ 107 

Senator Reed .............................................................................................. 109 

Senator Menendez ..................................................................................... 113 

Senator Warren ......................................................................................... 130 

Senator Donnelly ....................................................................................... 142 

Senator Schatz ........................................................................................... 143 

Senator Van Hollen ................................................................................... 145 

Senator Cortez Masto ................................................................................ 147 

ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUPPLIED FOR THE RECORD

Letters and statements submitted in support of the nomination of Dr. Benjamin Carson ........................................................................................................ 149 

Letters and statements submitted in opposition to the nomination of Dr. 

Benjamin Carson .................................................................................................. 177 

(III)

(1) 

NOMINATION OF DR. BENJAMIN CARSON, OF 

MICHIGAN, TO BE SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT 

THURSDAY, JANUARY 12, 2017 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met at 10:03 a.m., in room SD–538, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Mike Crapo, Chairman of the Committee, 

presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MIKE CRAPO 

Chairman CRAPO. This hearing will come to order. 

The first thing this morning, I want to welcome the new Members to the Senate Banking Committee: Senator David Perdue—is 

he here yet? 

Senator TILLIS. He is in Senate Armed Services. 

Chairman CRAPO. OK. We do have a number of hearings going 

on this morning. We will see him in just a moment, I am sure. Senator Thom Tillis. Welcome, Senator Tillis. Senator John Kennedy, 

welcome. Senator Brian Schatz. Welcome, Brian. Senator Chris 

Van Hollen, welcome. And Senator Catherine Cortez Masto, welcome. We appreciate all of you, and I am sure I speak for all of the 

regular old Members of the Committee that we welcome you here 

and we look forward to a lot good work. 

Senator WARREN. Earlier Members. 

Chairman CRAPO. Earlier Members of the Committee. 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman CRAPO. I was just told by both sides to speak for myself. 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman CRAPO. I look forward to working with all of us on the 

Committee, all Members of the Committee this year. And, you 

know, this Committee has a long and distinguished history of tackling important and complicated issues, and this Congress is no exception. In fact, we have a significant list of important issues that 

we will need to deal with, and we will do that, and I am confident 

that we will continue this tradition. My hope is we will do it in a 

strong bipartisan manner. 

I particularly look forward to working with my colleague Sherrod 

Brown as our Ranking Member. Sherrod and I have had a number 

of meetings already on these issues that we will be dealing with, 

2 

and we will work to lead this Committee through some very important territory during this session. 

This morning we will hear testimony on the nomination for the 

Secretary of the United States Department of Housing and Urban 

Development. We will begin today’s hearing with an opening statement by me and the Ranking Member, and we will then turn to 

Senator Rubio, who will introduce the Secretary-Designate, Dr. 

Benjamin Carson. And welcome, Dr. Carson, to the Committee. 

We will then follow the early bird rule, meaning that Members 

will be recognized by the Chair in the order of seniority for those 

who were present at the time the gavel came down and in order 

of arrival thereafter. Each Member will be allotted 5 minutes for 

the number of rounds that time will permit. 

Dr. Benjamin Carson was raised by a single mother in an impoverished part of the city of Detroit. He attended Yale University and 

the University of Michigan Medical School, and later became a 

highly accomplished and respected neurosurgeon. Dr. Carson was 

named director of pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital in 1984, at the age of 33, the youngest such director in the 

Nation. He gained national fame in the 1980s by becoming the first 

doctor to lead an operation that separated twins conjoined at the 

head, one of many high-profile operations led by Dr. Carson. 

In addition to his successful career as a surgeon, Dr. Carson is 

also a decorated author, a speaker who has written numerous bestselling books on a range of topics. He also ran for President in this 

past election and spent months traveling the country and listening 

to the American people about the problems and issues that they 

face, including with respect to housing. 

Throughout his career, Dr. Carson has achieved a great deal of 

success. He has demonstrated a fervent intensity for improving the 

lives of his fellow Americans, and his intellect, leadership, and life 

experiences are unique, valuable assets for leading an agency like 

HUD. Dr. Carson has said he plans to continue his conversation 

with the American people and do a listening tour, if confirmed. 

This is an encouraging sign that Dr. Carson wants to hear from 

stakeholders and, more importantly, from the American people. 

I hope to work with Dr. Carson on how to reimagine housing policy at HUD. I look forward to working on streamlining requirements for local public housing authorities, especially for smaller 

housing authorities. One example is the Small Public Housing Authority Opportunities Act, which seeks to encourage innovative approaches to determining tenant rents and to adjust the level of 

Federal oversight over small housing authorities. We should also 

look at the Section 8 Moving to Work rental assistance demonstration and public housing programs, where there has been interest 

in reform for many years. 

I hope to work with Dr. Carson on improvements to the programs that would produce cost-savings, reduce burdens on local 

housing authorities, and encourage self-sufficiency. 

Another issue this Committee has worked on are home equity 

conversion mortgages, which we call around here ‘‘HECMs.’’ It is 

important that we evaluate these important parts of our system, 

and I look forward to working with you on that program as well, 

Dr. Carson. 

3 

While the low-income housing tax credit is under Finance Committee’s jurisdiction, it is very important to us in the U.S. housing 

market. It provides essential capital to underserved communities 

and provides key financing for small and rural affordable housing 

developments. 

Tackling our homelessness, especially among our Nation’s veterans, is another issue that is important to me and other Members 

of this Committee. It is critical that HUD allow local communities 

to craft solutions that work best for their community needs. I hope 

to work with Dr. Carson and with other Members of this Committee on these and many other issues of critical need. 

At this time I would like to ask unanimous consent to enter into 

the record 17 letters and other statements that have been submitted in support of Dr. Carson’s nomination. I will not at this 

point read all of them. I suspect throughout the hearing we may 

read or reference to a number of these letters, but I do want to just 

highlight a couple of the first few. This includes letters from Bart 

Harvey, the former Chair and CEO of Enterprise Community Partners and a long-time affordable housing advocate. It also includes 

a bipartisan letter from four former HUD secretaries: Henry 

Cisneros, former Senator Mel Martinez, Alphonso Jackson, and 

Steven Preston. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

I look forward to hearing from Dr. Carson today. Before we do 

that, though, we are going to turn first to Senator Brown. Senator. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR SHERROD BROWN 

Senator BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for holding 

this hearing. Congratulations on your new role in leading this 

Committee. 

I echo what Senator Crapo said about his and my relationship. 

We have worked together on the Finance Committee on a number 

of issues and known each other for many years and had three or 

four already productive meetings since it was clear that he was 

going to be the Chairman of this Committee. 

I welcome our new Members: Senator Schatz, Senator Van Hollen, Senator Cortez Masto—good to see you—Senator Kennedy, 

Senator Tillis, and Senator Perdue. Glad that all of you are on the 

Committee. I look forward to working with each of you. 

Dr. Carson, I welcome you. Mrs. Carson, it was nice to meet you 

today, and I have not yet met your sons, and I have not met your 

lovely little granddaughter. I know you have a couple of other 

granddaughters that could not make it today. I want to thank you 

for your willingness to serve our country along with your husband 

and father and grandfather. 

As Chairman Crapo noted, Dr. Carson is a distinguished neurosurgeon. His remarkable life story is well known to all of us and 

to millions of Americans. He is an inspiration and a testament to 

the American dream. 

Much as we might wish otherwise, many children will not have 

the same combination of fortitude and a firm hand and a good fortune that allowed Dr. Carson to rise to the highest levels of medicine and the highest levels of our society. For some perspective, one 

study of medical students showed that only about 5 percent came 

4 

from households with incomes under $20,000. Different research 

has shown that only 1 in 13 Americans will move from the lowest 

income quintile to the highest over a lifetime. 

Of course, we encourage, and should encourage, children and 

adults to follow Dr. Carson’s example of getting a good education, 

working hard, and all that he has done. We should bear in mind, 

though, that many still face significant barriers to realizing that 

potential. For those who cannot overcome the odds on their own, 

should we not help them? Dr. Carson has repeatedly commented 

that Government assistance programs are harmful. He wrote that 

in the wake of the civil rights movement, ‘‘racist people from both 

parties adopted a paternalistic attitude toward African Americans 

and enacted Federal and State programs designed to take care of 

people who could not take care of themselves, people who were ignorant, stupid, or just plain lazy.’’ 

Why would we do this? To again quote Dr. Carson, ‘‘the only reason I can imagine that it would be a good idea for Government to 

foster dependency in large groups of citizens is to cultivate a dependable voting bloc that will guarantee continued power as long 

as entitlements are provided.’’ 

Dr. Carson has suggested that all assistance programs should be 

cut by 10 percent a year until the budget is balanced, without exceptions, without regard to whether the population served is vulnerable. Even social insurance programs—‘‘social insurance’’ meaning you pay in when you need it, lay-off, illness, retirement, or 

death—that social insurance programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which he believes are ‘‘socialist leanings,’’ even 

they should be subject to this 10-percent cut. 

Over 5 million Americans look to HUD for help. We are reaching 

only one of four eligible families. Many end up on years-long waiting lists simply because of lack of funding. They qualify. They are 

on the waiting list because there are not enough dollars available. 

A 10-percent cut, in addition to the shortages we now have, or the 

inadequacies we have, a 10-percent cut would send hundreds of 

thousands of families into a tailspin. For some, literally, it might 

be a matter of life and death. 

I should note that Dr. Carson has made clear that he think criticisms of his views on Federal assistance are unwarranted, so today 

is an opportunity for him to shed more light on these seemingly 

contradictory views of Federal assistance. I appreciated our individual time we had earlier this week to begin to explore that, and 

we want to know more. 

Since 1968, HUD has been charged with ensuring that all people, 

regardless of race, regardless of ethnicity, or whether they have a 

disability, that all people have fair and equal access to housing and 

that its grantees affirmatively further—that is the language, ‘‘affirmatively further’’—this policy. 

Here, too, Dr. Carson has been critical. In one of the few statements he has made on the subject of this hearing and the subject 

of his new jobs, and one of the few statements he has made on 

housing policy, he called into question more than four decades of 

civil rights law, he disparaged HUD’s efforts to reduce segregation 

as ‘‘social engineering schemes designed to legislate racial equality.’’ 

5 

When Dr. Carson and I met a couple of days ago, we discussed 

the tragic effects of lead in my State and nationwide. Dr. Carson 

knows better than the rest of us, in a more scientific way, if you 

will, the terrible price that children and society pay for the legacy 

of lead in paint, industrial settings, and in water. I appreciate our 

conversation and look forward to hearing more about his views on 

HUD’s role in removing lead hazards. 

Throughout his campaign, the President-elect promised to rebuild America’s cities which he labeled ‘‘hell holes.’’ Mr. Trump 

spelled out his views in this document, his ‘‘New Deal for Black 

America’’, with a plan for urban renewal. The plan covers issues 

such as school choice, investing in law enforcement, trade, of 

course, tax reform, and infrastructure investment. But at a time 

when more than 11 million families pay more than half their income toward rent—think of that, 11 million families spend more 

than half their income on rent—half a million people have no place 

to call home. The President-elect, this plan, the President-elect’s 

plan, has nothing about housing. 

Dr. Carson, I know you and the President-elect have talked at 

length about his urban renewal agenda. I am glad we had the 

chance today to learn more about that agenda, the role housing will 

play, and how you will help to deliver on his promises to create 

safer communities and better infrastructure, including, and especially in light of your charge, including our public housing stock. 

Welcome again to you, to Candy, to your family, and in front of 

the Committee. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you, Senator Brown. 

We are honored today to have Senator Marco Rubio from Florida 

to introduce Dr. Carson, and, Senator Rubio, the floor is yours. 

STATEMENT OF MARCO RUBIO, SENATOR FROM THE STATE 

OF FLORIDA 

Senator RUBIO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the 

Members. Thank you to Dr. Carson for his willingness to serve our 

country in this role. 

I am honored to be here to introduce my friend, and a fellow Floridian, Dr. Ben Carson, who is President-elect Trump’s nominee to 

be the Secretary of HUD. 

I will begin by acknowledging that I did not have a chance to 

interact with Dr. Carson much until about 2015, when both he and 

I ran for higher office, and many of those interactions were on 

stage in front of millions of people, over 21⁄2 hours, under hot 

lights, answering tough questions. I did have an interaction in the 

summer of 2015 in Iowa. He may not remember this, but I was 

feeling very sick that day, ran into him in the lobby of a hotel, and 

said, ‘‘I am not feeling good today, Doc.’’ And he said, ‘‘Well, tell 

me what you are feeling.’’ I described my symptoms, and Dr. Carson said, ‘‘Yeah, it sounds like you are sick.’’ 

[Laughter.] 

Senator RUBIO. But all that aside, I have gotten to know him and 

his family through this process. You learn a lot about someone by 

watching him in a circumstance and in a situation such as that of 

running for President of the United States, but you also learn a lot 

because he is clearly an extraordinary and accomplished individual, 

6 

someone who has been blessed with a gift—the gift of saving lives 

by performing surgeries that few, if any, in the world would have 

undertaken. 

Dr. Carson is supremely accomplished in his professional life, 

and even though his accomplishments in his professional life are 

extraordinary, I believe he is even a more extraordinary person. He 

is a man of limitless compassion and of concern for others, a man 

who has never forgotten where he started out in life and all the 

obstacles that he had to overcome to achieve the American dream, 

and a man who has devoted his life in public service. He has been 

a mentor, a generous giver of his time, a founder of a successful 

nonprofit, all designed to help remove the obstacles that he faced 

from other Americans. 

As Secretary of HUD, Dr. Carson will encounter a Department 

that is broken in many regards. It is a vast, sprawling bureaucracy 

that reaches all corners of our country. It is based here in Washington, but its most important work does not even take place here. 

It takes place out in the communities where they have housing facilities or provide assistance to people. I have seen with my own 

eyes the major challenges HUD faces and of its consequences on 

real people. Specifically, I have seen how lapses in competence and 

a lack of accountability in the HUD inspection process has endangered the lives of men, women, and children, and not just in Florida but all across this country. 

HUD needs a leader who knows how to overcome tough obstacles, someone who, when told ‘‘you will never be able to do that,’’ 

finds the way to do that, and does it well. Well, that is what Ben 

Carson has done his entire life. 

To those who may have questions about his qualifications, that 

is certainly the role of this Committee. But I would argue to you 

that the most important qualification that I would look for in a 

HUD Secretary is someone that understands that HUD is not just 

about providing people a place to live. At its core, HUD is about 

the American dream. HUD is about the belief that those who have 

been left behind and have suffered and have fallen down, we need 

to give them a chance to stand back up on their own two feet and 

achieve a better life. HUD in many ways is about empowering people to capture the promise of America. The one thing that makes 

us different than the rest of the world, where in this country, no 

matter who you are born to or how underprivileged you may be, 

starting out in life, we believe every human being is entitled by our 

creator to achieve their God-given potential. 

And I would just encourage this Committee to understand this: 

Dr. Carson believes this not because he read about it in a book or 

in a magazine, or because he watched some documentary on PBS. 

He believes it because he has lived it, and that cannot be easily 

replicated. He has the values, the compassion, and the character, 

and the kind of drive that we need. He is a proven leader, a doer 

in solving tough problems, and doing things that are hard and that 

people believe to be impossible. Throughout his life, people have 

put their hopes and literally their lives in his hands, and from everything I have seen from him firsthand and gotten to know about 

him, I am hopeful that this Nation will soon entrust him with the 

duty of serving as the Secretary of HUD. 

7 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you, Senator Rubio, and you are certainly welcome to stay, but I know you have got other responsibilities to attend to. We appreciate your taking your time to come and 

introduce Dr. Carson. 

Dr. Carson, before we turn the floor over to you, it is necessary 

that I place you under oath. Would you please stand and raise your 

right hand? 

Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you are about to 

give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 

help you God? 

Dr. CARSON. I do. 

Chairman CRAPO. Do you agree to appear and testify before any 

duly constituted committee of the Senate? 

Dr. CARSON. I do. 

Chairman CRAPO. You may sit down. 

Dr. Carson, your written statement will be made a part of the 

record in its entirety, and you may now make your oral statement, 

as you choose. Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF DR. BENJAMIN CARSON, OF MICHIGAN, TO BE 

SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT 

Dr. CARSON. Well, thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CRAPO. May I interrupt you before you get started? I 

should have said I encourage you to introduce your family. I think 

you were about to do that anyway, but you are certainly welcome 

to, please, introduce your family who have come to be with you. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. Well, thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, Senator Brown. Thank you to Senator Rubio for that kind introduction. 

Thank you to the Members of the Committee, virtually all of whom 

I have met with, who have been very gracious, and I very much 

appreciate that. Thanks also to President-elect Trump for his 

friendship, leadership, and for his trust for such an important role. 

I would like to introduce my family. Directly behind me is my 

wife, Candy, of 41 years, my college sweetheart, and starting from 

this end, my oldest son, Murray, another Yalie, who is an engineer, 

and his wife, Lerone, who is a youth pastor. And my daughter-inlaw, Merlynn, who is a physician and a businesswoman, and my 

granddaughter, Tesora, who is just a sweetie; and my middle son, 

Ben Junior, or BJ, as we affectionately call him, a very successful 

entrepreneur businessman. And our good friend, Marcia Jackson, 

wife of former Secretary Alphonso Jackson. And I think you probably know the others here, but Rhoeyce is—oh, there he is, OK. My 

youngest son, Rhoeyce, and his father-in-law, Alexander Shabo. 

Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you very much, and we welcome you all 

to the Committee today. 

Dr. Carson, you may proceed. 

Dr. CARSON. You know, as a youngster, I remember actually feeling that I was pretty lucky. We lived in a 750-square-foot GI home 

in southwest Detroit that actually had a lawn and a little one-car 

garage, and we thought that was paradise. And then my parents 

got divorced, and, you know, my mother discovered that my father 

8 

was married to someone else. And she did not have any skills. Basically, a third-grade education. We had no place to live. She could 

not afford the house, so we ended up moving to Boston, moving in 

with relatives. So I have actually in my life understood what housing insecurity was. 

We were there in Boston for a couple of years, and I remember 

as a 9-year-old looking through a building across the street, out of 

which all the windows had been broken, and a sunbeam was shining through it, and it made me think about my future. I remember 

thinking that I probably would never live to be 25, because that is 

what I saw around me, but my mother had very different ideas. 

She worked extraordinarily hard as a domestic, leaving the house 

at 5 in the morning, getting back at midnight, day after day after 

day, and her strong desire was not to be dependent on anybody 

else. And people were always criticizing her, and they said, ‘‘You 

have two boys. You can be on Aid to Dependent Children.’’ And she 

said, ‘‘No, I cannot.’’ 

And she worked very hard. She would sometimes take us to the 

homes that she cleaned, and many of them were fabulous homes, 

and she would say, ‘‘Would you rather live in this wonderful place 

or would you rather live where we live?’’ And she would say, ‘‘You 

know, the person who has this most to do with determining where 

you live is you. It is not somebody else. It is not the environment.’’ 

You know, that made a very strong impression on me, and she 

insisted later on, when we were able to return to Detroit, still not 

to our idyllic home—we still could not afford to live there, still in 

a multifamily, dilapidated place with rats and roaches—but, nevertheless, she was independent, and we still had that dream of being 

able to get back there. 

But I was a terrible student, and she insisted that I read. She 

insisted that my brother read. We were not very enthusiastic about 

that, but back in those days you had to do what your parents told 

you. And as I started reading, I began to discover a whole new 

world. We were desperately poor, but between the covers of those 

books I could go anywhere. I could be anybody. I could do anything. 

And within the space of a year and a half, I went from the bottom 

of the class to the top of the class, much to the consternation of 

all those students who used to call me ‘‘dummy.’’ They were now 

coming to me, saying, ‘‘Bennie, Bennie, how do you work this problem?’’ And I would say, ‘‘Sit at my feet, youngster, while I instruct 

you.’’ 

[Laughter.] 

Dr. CARSON. I was perhaps a little obnoxious, but it sure felt 

good to say that to those turkeys. 

But, you know, I had a very different impression of who I was 

at that point, and, you know, it is one of the reasons that Candy 

and I started the Carson Scholars Fund, a component of which are 

reading rooms. And we put in reading rooms all over the country. 

We have 165 of them now, primarily in Title I schools, where kids 

come from homes with no books. They go to a school with no library or poorly funded library. They are not likely to become readers. As you know, 70 to 80 percent of high school dropouts are functionally illiterate, and if we can truncate that downstream, you can 

change the trajectory of their lives. And that is really what it is 

9 

about—changing lives and providing opportunities for people. It 

makes all the difference in the world. 

You know, we had a program at Hopkins, and I would have 700 

to 800 students at a time come in on a regular basis. If you came 

to Johns Hopkins, some of you probably had me. You saw all the 

school buses around. That was bringing in the kids and trying to 

encourage them in terms of what they could do. And I got involved 

in a lot of the programs, involved more with the East Baltimore 

Community Development Inc., and with the community school, and 

with all the schools and the mayors. 

And, you know, that was a very important part of my life, even 

though I was an extraordinarily busy surgeon. And I do believe 

that Government can play a very important role. I know some have 

distorted what I have said about Government, but I believe Government is important, and it is there, I believe, to promote life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 

What has happened too often is that people who seemingly mean 

well have promoted things that do not encourage the development 

of innate talent in people, and, hence, we have generation after 

generation of people living in dependent situations. It is not that 

they are bad people. It is that this is what they have been given. 

This is all they know, in many cases. 

I think we have an opportunity here to do something about that 

if we take a more holistic approach. When we talk about HUD traditionally, most people think putting roofs over the heads of poor 

people. But it has the ability to be so much more than that, particularly if we take a holistic approach. And we think about how 

do we develop our fellow human beings. I see each individual as 

human capital that can be developed to become part of the engine 

that drives our Nation or, if not developed, becomes part of the 

load. And we are the ones who are tasked with helping to make 

the difference. 

So I do believe that Government is extraordinarily important, 

and one of the things that I want to do, instead of just listening 

to the sage people of Washington, DC—and there are some wise 

people here—I want to go on a listening tour. I want to hear from 

the people with boots on the ground, who are actually administering programs, who are benefiting from the programs. I want 

to see what actually works and what does not work. I want to analyze why it works and why it does not work. 

Before I go on the road to do that, I want to do that at HUD. 

We have people there who have been there for 10, 20, 30, even 40 

years, and I do not think a lot of people listen to what they have 

to say. I suspect that they have garnered a tremendous amount of 

information, and I want to get that information from them. I want 

to work with them on a regular basis. 

Some people say, ‘‘But medicine—why would you go into something like HUD?’’ Well, I actually believe that there is a tremendous nexus, a great intersection, because good health has a lot to 

do with a good environment, and after working so hard on so many 

people and then putting them back into an environment with lead 

and with all kinds of inducements for asthma and other chronic 

diseases, that is not very helpful. And I am looking forward to the 

10 

Safe and Healthy Homes Program at HUD and enhancing that program very significantly. 

Why is all this so important? Well, you know, there was a Brookings study, a very important study, which showed that if people did 

three things, their likelihood of living in poverty would be 2 percent 

or less, and that is really what we want to do, keep people from 

living in poverty. Those three things were graduate from high 

school, get a job, and wait until you are married to have children. 

Think about that. And, you know, what that means is that there 

are points of intervention, things that we can do to make a difference in people’s lives. 

Also, think about this fact. In terms of our human capital that 

is being wasted, we have 5 percent of the world’s population and 

25 percent of the prison inmates. That means there is something 

wrong. We have high recidivism rates. We have people who go into 

prison with little education and little in the way of skills, and they 

come out with little education and little in the way of skills. So 

what are they going to do? They go back to doing what they were 

doing before; hence, we have these high recidivism rates. We need 

to think about how do we give them education, how do we give 

them skills, how do we cultivate the innate talent that is in those 

individuals so that they become part of the engine once again. 

And recognize, we only have 330 million people. Now, that 

sounds like a lot of people, but that is a quarter of the people they 

have in India or China. We are going to have to compete with those 

Nations into the future, which means we have to develop all of our 

talent. 

Now, you say, ‘‘Well, that all sounds great and wonderful, but 

you were a pediatric neurosurgeon. How could you have anything 

wonderful to say about any of these things?’’ Well, you know, I 

have to chuckle when I hear people say things like that because 

there is an assumption that you can only do one thing and that we 

have these very limited brains and they are incapable of learning 

anything else. I find that kind of humorous, particularly knowing 

what the human brain is capable of. Billions of neurons, hundreds 

of billions of interconnections can process more than 2 million bits 

of information in 1 second. Any brain can do that. You cannot overload it. You hear some people say you overload your brain. You 

cannot do it. If you learned one new fact every second, it would 

take you more than 3 million years to challenge the capacity of 

your brain. So we do have the ability to learn. 

More importantly, we have the ability to work together, and that 

is absolutely critical. We in America—Democrats, Republicans, 

Independents—we are not each other’s enemies. We must come to 

that understanding. There are real people out there who really 

want to destroy us, but we do not need to be doing that ourselves. 

We need to be combining our collective intellect, and one of the 

things that I learned in my private life as a board member at Kellogg for 18 years and Costco for 16 years is how to select a good 

CEO. And I will tell you, a good CEO does not necessarily know 

everything about the business. He is not a marketing specialist. He 

may not be a financial specialist. There are many things that he 

does not know, but he knows how to pick those people and how to 

use them. And that is one of the marks of good leadership. 

11 

So, in closing, I have been very fortunate to be able to move from 

the bottom rung of the socioeconomic level to the top rung and to 

understand how people feel in all those different levels, and I got 

to tell you, we are all in the same boat, and if part of the boat 

sinks, the rest of it is going down, too. And it means what we need 

to do is exercise true compassion. True compassion is not keeping 

people in a situation where we can feel good about what we are 

doing. True compassion is putting them in the situation where they 

can feel good about where they are going. 

Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you very much, Dr. Carson. 

We will now go to 5-minute increments for Members of the Committee to question and discuss issues with you, and I encourage 

both you and the Members to keep an eye on the clock. If we start 

running over a little, you will hear me tap the gavel to remind you 

that it is time to wrap up so that we can all have a fair opportunity 

for our participation. I will begin first, and then we will turn to 

Senator Brown. 

Dr. Carson, as I mentioned in my opening statement, we have received a letter of support from Bart Harvey, who is the former 

chair and CEO of Enterprise Community Partners. Mr. Harvey 

praised the charitable work that you have done to help send disadvantaged students to college. He wrote, ‘‘Although we come from 

opposites of the political spectrum, Ben and I share a common belief in helping people move up and out of poverty. He has done that 

through his outreach to the community and his philanthropy, and 

I have done it through my work with Enterprise.’’ He further 

wrote, ‘‘I can vouch for his character, his heart, and his drive to 

help others. Given HUD’s role in the fight against poverty and for 

increased opportunity, I believe he can bring these issues to the national attention that they deserve.’’ 

Dr. Carson, how will your experiences working with the surrounding community at Johns Hopkins and through the Carson 

Scholars Help Fund help you run the Department of Housing and 

Urban Development? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, having had an opportunity to interact with a 

lot of people in Baltimore, particularly in East Baltimore, which 

many of you know is not necessarily a very affluent area—and that 

is putting it mildly—and understanding a lot of their housing 

needs—because many of my patients came out of that environment, 

an environment where I saw children with pica, with lead poisoning chronically, and what that did to them intellectually, what 

that did to them medically. I saw so many children with asthma, 

which is induced in most of those cases by environmental influences, and recognizing that if we can give those people hope, then 

they can move out of that situation. But giving them hope starts 

with giving them a safe and a productive environment. 

And understanding that and understanding how you create those 

environments is something that I think is going to make a very big 

difference, and that is one of the reasons that I have already looked 

at some of the places in Baltimore and talked to the housing commissioner here in Washington, DC, and talked to a commissioner 

in Atlanta earlier this week, and I have talked to multiple mayors. 

And they have given me their take, but they have also invited me 

12 

to come and look at the places where they are, both the good and 

the bad. Those are things that I intend to do not only early on but 

continually throughout the process because I believe there is a constant learning process, and my goal is to get everybody into a decent position, 100 percent of Americans. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. And, Dr. Carson, I know that you 

have heard some criticism of your alleged positions with regard to 

public assistance to the poor. You have heard some today. I would 

like to ask you if you would in your words like to discuss with us 

what your view is of how we should approach public assistance to 

the poor. 

Dr. CARSON. I believe that we in America are compassionate. We 

have a history of being compassionate to people, and we obviously 

do not have to do something, but that would not be American. That 

would not be who we are. 

Of course, I feel very strongly that we should do everything we 

can, not only because we are compassionate, but also because we 

are smart, because we recognize that for every one of our people 

that we do not develop, it is someone whose talent is not contributing to the moving forward of this Nation. And if we are going to 

be successful in the future, as I mentioned before, we have to develop all of our talent. So for people to imply that I do not understand that or do not want to do anything for poor people, I believe 

that they perhaps are only looking at words that have been skewed 

and not at actions. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. We just have about 30 seconds 

left, so I will ask you very quickly. You have been nominated to 

run the Department of Housing and Urban Development. I think 

everyone on the Committee is familiar with your impressive life 

story. In your opening statement, you mentioned that you wanted 

to help run HUD to help heal America’s divisiveness. Can you just 

elaborate on that very briefly? 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. One of the things that has alarmed me is the 

fact that, you know, we are divided on the basis of income, race, 

gender, religion, age, just about everything, and we continue to 

allow the purveyors of division to drive those wedges between us. 

I believe that HUD is particularly well positioned to bring some 

healing in this area by truly manifesting fairness toward people, by 

truly getting people involved with each other. 

I want to work to bring mentorship programs. We have a lot of 

very successful people who can mentor young people who are in 

more desperate situations and show them a different way. We have 

public–private partnerships, which are win-win situations. Those 

are the kinds of things that are extraordinarily helpful. There are 

some who will always say to the Government, ‘‘Give us more 

money. Give us more money. We need more money for this program and that program.’’ Yes, it would be wonderful if there was 

an unlimited pot of money, but the place where there is a lot of 

money is in the private sector. And what we have to concentrate 

on is helping the private sector to recognize that, in the long run, 

private sector does better when we develop all of our people. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you very much. 

Senator Brown. 

13 

Senator BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to begin 

by asking unanimous consent to enter in the record letters that I 

have received, and our staffs can work together to make sure we 

are not duplicating that, if you would. 

Chairman CRAPO. Without objection. 

Senator BROWN. Thank you. 

And I also wanted to announce—and I neglected in my opening 

statement—that Senators Reed from Rhode Island and Warner 

from Virginia both have responsibilities as ranking members on 

Armed Services and Intelligence to do hearings, to do confirmation 

hearings today, and could not join us but wanted to be here. So I 

wanted to say that. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. 

Senator BROWN. Thank you for your statements. I appreciate 

many of the ideas and goals you expressed. Some, however, as you, 

I think, know by now, are inconsistent with statements you have 

made over the past few years. If confirmed, I think you understand 

you will be held to the ideas you have expressed today, not ones 

necessarily you may have written or talked about in a Presidential 

race. 

You testified that you want to make communities more inclusive. 

This seems at odds with one of the only housing policies that prior 

to this nomination that you have taken a public stand on fair housing. As I mentioned, your 2015 column in the Washington Times 

critiqued HUD’s then new rule to affirmatively further fair housing. You characterized that rule as a Government-engineered attempt to legislate racial equality. You likened it to a failed socialist 

experiment. Please elaborate for this Committee on your view of 

HUD’s role implementing the Fair Housing Act, especially including the requirement that HUD’s grantees affirmatively further fair 

housing. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, thank you, Senator Brown, for that question 

and an opportunity to actually explain that because it has been distorted by many people. 

As you probably know, that act says that we want people who 

are receiving HUD grants to look around and see if they find anything that looks like discrimination, and then we want them to 

come up with a solution on how to solve the problem. They are not 

responding to people saying that there is a problem. They are saying go and look for a problem and then give us a solution. And 

what I believe to be the case is that we have people sitting around 

desks in 

Washington, DC, deciding on how things should be done, you 

know, telling mayors and commissioners and people, ‘‘You need to 

build this place right here, and you need to put these kind of people in it.’’ 

What I would encourage—I do not have any problem whatsoever 

with affirmative action or at least, you know, integration. I have 

no problem with that at all. But I do have a problem with people 

on high dictating it when they do not know anything about what 

is going on in the area. We have local HUD officials, and we have 

people who can assess what the problems are in their area and 

working with local officials can come up with much better solutions 

14 

than a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter program from people in Washington, DC. That is the part that I—— 

Senator BROWN. Your objection—so sorry, Dr. Carson. We have 

5 minutes. Your objection is not to affirmatively further. Your objection is whether that is done from Washington or the HUD office 

in Columbus, Ohio? 

Dr. CARSON. My objection is central dictation to people’s lives. 

Senator BROWN. Let me explore further along those same lines. 

I want to hear your views on the housing rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer people. These people also face discrimination, as you know, in alarmingly high rates of youth homelessness and bullying. Your statement mentions your desire to improve the lives of all families and communities ‘‘no matter their 

race, creed, color, or orientation,’’ yet you have in the past raised 

questions about whether LGBTQ people should enjoy the same 

rights as everyone else. Do you believe that HUD has a duty to 

take actions that promote equal access to housing opportunities for 

LGBTQ people? 

Dr. CARSON. If confirmed in this position, of course, I would enforce all the laws of the land, and I believe that all Americans, regardless of any of the things that you mentioned, should be protected by the law. 

What I have mentioned in the past is the fact that no one gets 

extra rights. Extra rights means you get to redefine everything for 

everybody else. That to me does not seem to be very democratic. 

Senator BROWN. That is what we are talking about, but I am 

glad to hear you say that, moving forward, you will respect that. 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator BROWN. Last question, Mr. Chair, as time runs short. 

We have seen a dramatic increase in affordable housing needs in 

this country, as you have pointed out, Dr. Carson, in recent years. 

Eleven million families, as I said earlier, a quarter of all renters, 

pay more than half their income for housing, struggling to make 

ends meet. One thing goes wrong—a temporary layoff, hours cut 

back, illness—they lose their home. We talked in my office about 

the Matthew Desmond book ‘‘Evicted,’’ which I hope you will read 

and I know some of your staff has already—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator BROWN. ——about people’s lives being turned upside 

down when they are evicted. Their children’s school district 

changes. They lose their possessions. They never quite catch up 

again. Their credit—all of those things that happen when half of 

their income goes to housing. 

I am surprised the President-elect’s urban agenda does not even 

mention housing, as we talked about. You had told me about your 

conversations with the President-elect about an urban agenda. 

Have you had discussions with him about your plans for housing 

or his plans for housing? Tell us what those plans—tell us what 

plans have come from those discussions. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. Yes, we have talked. In fact, we talked this 

morning. 

You have to attack the problem that you described from both 

ends. There are a large number of people spending 30 to 50 percent 

of their income on housing, and that is an unacceptable number. 

15 

So what we have to do is either raise their income or decrease the 

cost of the housing. I think both of those areas are areas that we 

need to work upon. 

Senator BROWN. Do you support raising the minimum wage, and 

do you support the overtime rule, which in my State alone or in 

your home State of Michigan meant more than $100,000 in each 

State, people got raises that are making $30,000 and $40,000 a 

year? If we are talking about raising income, particularly the overtime rule would mean real dollars in people’s pockets that are 

working 50 and 60 hours a week. Do you support those? 

Dr. CARSON. I support creating an environment that encourages 

entrepreneurial risk taking and capital investment, which are the 

engines that drove America from no place to the pinnacle of the 

world in record time. 

Senator BROWN. So I guess that means you do not support the 

overtime rule or the minimum wage? 

Dr. CARSON. It means exactly that my philosophy is that we can 

increase people’s minimum wages by increasing opportunities for 

them and creating an environment where those opportunities exist 

rather than artificially trying to change it. 

Senator BROWN. I do not think—and last point, I do not think 

it is artificial that someone that works 50 or 60 hours a week and 

has been classified as management can work those hours over 40 

making $35,000 a year and not get paid for those hours. I do not 

think that is artificial when the employer has denied them that 

straight time or especially time and a half. 

Dr. CARSON. I agree it is not artificial, but you create the right 

environment, that employer will have to pay them more because 

the competition will require it of him. 

Chairman CRAPO. All right. Senator Shelby. 

Senator SHELBY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Carson, I want to first, again, thank you for accepting this 

nomination—— 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator SHELBY. ——and I want to do—a lot of us want to do everything we can to expedite this nomination. I am going to do a little of it this morning by not using all of my 5 minutes, but we appreciate you, and we appreciate what you are and what you stand 

for and what you have done and what you could do in the housing 

area. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator SHELBY. I think you are very wise to go on a listening 

tour. You can learn things, because all the wisdom is not here at 

HUD, but there is some there—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator SHELBY. ——because you referenced that earlier. There 

is experience there. But housing goes to the very essence of a family, family and opportunities and a neighborhood and then a town 

or a city and a Nation, as you know. We have got to do—there are 

a lot of broken things. I do not know all the answers. I have been 

on this Committee—this is my 31st year, and I have seen a lot of 

HUD Secretaries come and go. You can make a difference, and I 

believe you are taking that job to make a difference. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

16 

Senator SHELBY. In the interest of time—and, of course, you are 

not there yet; I know that—I have six questions. I am not going 

to read them all to you, but I would like to get them answered not 

before you are confirmed, but after you settle down. 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator SHELBY. One question deals with FHA mortgage insurance premiums. Another deals with distressed asset stabilization 

programs. These are just topics. One deals with down payments, 

FHA. The other one is HUD spending, considering the national 

debt. The other is HUD and DOJ enforcement, dealing with fraud, 

everything that deals with that. You will have a big one. Risk sharing, dealing—there is a difference between the way the VA Affairs 

loan program works and FHA, which comes under you, works and 

so forth. 

But I would like to submit, Mr. Chairman, these questions for 

the record to be answered by the future HUD Secretary but not 

today. In the interest of time, I yield back my time in the interest 

of getting you confirmed. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. All very important issues, by the way, 

and I would be very happy to answer those. 

Senator SHELBY. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you, Senator Shelby. I appreciate the 

precedent that you have just set. 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Menendez. 

Senator MENENDEZ. I appreciate and love Senator Shelby, but I 

am not going to follow his precedent, so—— 

[Laughter.] 

Senator MENENDEZ. Let me say, Dr. Carson, congratulations on 

your nomination. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator MENENDEZ. And Tesora, is it, your granddaughter? 

Dr. CARSON. Tesora, yes. 

Senator MENENDEZ. She has got the right idea. She has her pink 

earphones on, so it is not an option that you have in the hearing, 

but nonetheless. 

Let me say in preparing for this hearing and reviewing your 

background, I learned that we grew up in similar circumstances. 

We both were raised in neighborhoods with fewer opportunities, 

whether it be Detroit, Boston, or Union City, New Jersey. I grew 

up in a tenement, and we both had parents who worked twice as 

hard and made half as much as those in more privileged communities. We both had devoted mothers who were willing to sacrifice 

everything and anything to give us a chance to succeed, and you 

did succeed with many notable accomplishments in your field of pediatric neurosurgery. 

But you are nominated to lead an agency in a completely different field, and our job is to assess your fitness to lead HUD. And 

in reviewing your past comments and knowing where we came 

from to get here today, I cannot help but see that you and I have 

arrived here with vastly diverging views about how to empower 

and create opportunities for the most vulnerable among us. So I 

have some serious questions—and I appreciate the visit that you 

had with me in my office—about whether your world view fits the 

17 

core mission of the Department of Housing and Urban Development. 

You stated, ‘‘Poverty is really more of a choice than anything 

else.’’ During the CBS Republican Presidential debate in February 

of 2016, you suggested that, ‘‘Getting rid of all regulations is the 

key to getting rid of poverty.’’ 

You characterize—and I know you just talked about a little bit 

of the legal obligations to include and create fair and inclusive communities free of discrimination as social engineering, and I want to 

follow up on that with you a bit. You propose that every Federal 

agency should trim their budgets with 10-percent across-the-board 

cuts year over year. I think of that more as a meat ax, not a neurosurgeon’s knife. And I am concerned that it appears that you believe that some of the very programs that I have come to know as 

a mayor, as a State legislator, as a Member of Congress, to empower, promote, and improve our communities, encourage what you 

call ‘‘dependency.’’ 

So given that record of your views about poverty and housing, I 

would like to get a sense from you. Do you truly believe in the mission of HUD? For instance, should the Government continue to provide rental assistance to the more than 4.5 million low-income 

households across this country who are currently receiving it and 

who use that to find a place to call home? 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you, Senator, for that question. First of all, 

if you have followed carefully what I have been saying, the concept 

of cutting across all the different departments was presented as a 

concept—in other words, not favoring one group or another group. 

I have modified that much later on to 1 percent, but the point 

being we can never seem to cut because people have their programs, and they say this one is sacred and this one is not. So the 

point being if we can find a number on which we can agree and 

begin to cut back, we can start thinking about fiscal responsibility. 

Bear in mind, we are approaching a $20 trillion national debt. 

Senator MENENDEZ. I appreciate that. My specific question is: Do 

you agree that the Government should continue to provide rental 

assistance to the more than 4.5 million low-income households 

across this country? 

Dr. CARSON. I think the rental assistance program is essential, 

and what I have said, if you have been reading my writings, is that 

when it comes to entitlement programs, it is cruel and unusual 

punishment to withdraw those programs before you provide an alternative route. 

Senator MENENDEZ. Now, let me ask you. In response to Senator 

Brown, you talked about fair housing, and you said you had no 

problem with affirmative action or integration. But there actually 

is under the law an affirmative obligation to affirmatively further 

housing, fair housing, and you have said what you did not care for 

is the top-down response. But yet the new rule that was developed 

through a 2-year public comment process requires ‘‘local communities to assess their own patterns of racial and income segregation 

and make genuine plans to address them.’’ That is not a top-down. 

So are you committed to the statutory obligation of affirmatively 

pursuing furthering fair housing? 

18 

Dr. CARSON. Well, this has been a judgment passed down by the 

Supreme Court. It has become the law of the land, and, of course, 

if confirmed, I will enforce it. 

Senator MENENDEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Toomey. 

Senator TOOMEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Carson, welcome to the Committee. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator TOOMEY. Thank you very much for your willingness to 

serve. I am grateful to you for the service you have provided to our 

country in various ways—— 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator TOOMEY. ——and for the service you are about to undertake. I appreciate your coming by my office and the discussion we 

had yesterday. 

It strikes me as a misguided notion to measure the success of a 

Government agency like HUD by the number of people who live in 

HUD housing. A better measure in my mind would be how many 

people no longer need HUD housing, and I would like to explore 

that a little bit with you, especially this idea you talked about, 

about how you hope to work with other agencies and departments 

within the Government to help develop the innate capability of 

these people that I know you feel very strongly about. But, first, 

a couple of somewhat specific questions about FHA, if I could. 

In 2006, FHA insured 2.7 percent of mortgage originations. By 

2015, FHA was insuring 17.1 percent of such originations. So the 

FHA’s contingent liabilities now have absolutely ballooned—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator TOOMEY. ——to the point where it was $245 billion in 

2006, it is $1.2 trillion today. So, in other words, taxpayers are on 

the hook for $1.2 trillion worth of mortgages—that all the while 

there is a private industry that is in the business of insuring mortgages. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator TOOMEY. Do you share my concern that this massive explosive growth in the FHA’s mortgage guarantee business has 

interfered with a viable private alternative that does not involve 

taxpayer risk at all? 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you, Senator, and thank you for the enjoyable time we had at your office. 

First of all, it is a big number. I mean 8.5 million FHA loans and 

$1.25 trillion. So, of course, we have to be concerned when we are 

talking numbers of that magnitude. 

We also need to make sure that we balance that against the ability of homeowners to have some security in the loans that they 

make. Does it have to be, you know, one particular entity that does 

it? Absolutely not, but we do have to have a mechanism, a backstop, you might say, of some type. Otherwise, when someone comes 

in and buys up the loans, securitizes them, we are probably not 

going to be able to sell them to particularly some of the entities 

that would buy them because they would not be comfortable. 

So I look forward to working with you and other Members of this 

Committee to figure out how we can shrink back the liability of a 

19 

taxpayer while still providing the security for the individuals who 

want the loans. 

Senator TOOMEY. Well, I appreciate that, and I look forward to 

working with you on that. I do believe there is a very vibrant and 

capable private mortgage insurance industry that wishes to provide 

that service, is able to do so, and does so at no taxpayer risk. 

I would also just—I know you are aware of this, Dr. Carson, but 

it was just this week that Secretary Castro announced a 25-basispoint reduction in FHA’s mortgage insurance premium. This was 

surprising to me for several reasons. One, the capital ratio that is 

the statutory requirement minimum is 2 percent. It is only at 2.32. 

This strikes me as very little buffer above the minimum, and after 

all, as recently as 2013, the FHA needed a bailout. So I wonder, 

first of all, did Secretary Castro or his folks reach out to you or to 

your knowledge anyone else in the Trump organization since you 

would be responsible, assuming you are confirmed, for implementing this change, which is about to go into effect? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, I—no, they did not. I, too, was surprised to see 

something of this nature done on the way out the door, which, of 

course, has a profound effect. We are talking, you know, $2 to $3 

billion this year, $5 billion next year. You know, that is not chump 

change. So, certainly, if confirmed, I am going to work with the 

FHA Administrator and other financial experts to really examine 

that policy. 

Senator TOOMEY. Thank you. I appreciate that. 

And, Mr. Chairman, if you will just indulge. My last question is 

just to refer back to my first point and ask Dr. Carson if he might 

share with us some of your thoughts about how you hope to work 

with other agencies, departments of the Federal Government, to 

help people achieve—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator TOOMEY. ——what they are capable of achieving and the 

independence that comes with that. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. I think that is a very important concept. 

As some of you may remember, when Jack Kemp was the Secretary 

of HUD, he started a governmental interagency program against 

homelessness, and it really was quite effective and very important. 

What I would be thinking about, if we are going to develop the 

whole person, is not just putting a roof over their head, but making 

sure that they have access to an excellent education and their children do. That means working with the Department of Education. 

It means working with the Department of Labor in terms of helping to train people, not just to be people who stand out on the corner and hold the sign and basic laborers, but apprenticeship programs, because there are a lot of shovel-ready jobs, but not so 

many people to handle the shovels. You know, we need cement 

workers and welders and brick workers and a number of people, 

and those skills have been vanishing from our society. This is an 

excellent opportunity to bring them back. Not only does it give the 

person an immediate job, but it provides them with a mechanism 

to climb the ladders of opportunity in our society and gives them 

stability beyond what we and the Government would be facilitating, and that should be our goal. And several other areas, transportation is absolutely crucial. I think we even need to be working 

20 

with the Justice Department because, you know, there are some inequities there that are keeping us from developing talent that can 

contribute to the strength of our Nation. 

Senator TOOMEY. Thank you very much, Dr. Carson. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Warren. 

Senator WARREN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and congratulations 

on your new role as Chair of this Committee. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. 

Senator WARREN. I am looking forward to working with you as 

well as with six new Members of our Committee. 

And, Dr. Carson, thank you for being here. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator WARREN. Before we get into some of the questions that 

I raised in my letter to you earlier this week, I just want to get 

an answer to, I think, a simple yes-or-no question. If you are confirmed to lead HUD, you will be responsible for issuing billions of 

dollars in grants and loans to help develop housing and provide a 

lot of housing-related services. Now, housing development is an 

area in which President-elect Trump and his family have significant business interests. Can you assure me that not a single taxpayer dollar that you give out will financially benefit the Presidentelect or his family? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, Senator, I was worried that you would not get 

back. Thank you for coming back. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator WARREN. I am back. 

[Laughter.] 

Dr. CARSON. I can assure you that the things that I do are driven 

by a sense of morals and values, and, therefore, I will absolutely 

not play favorites for anyone. 

Senator WARREN. Dr. Carson, let me stop right there. I am actually trying to ask a more pointed question, and it is not about your 

good faith. That is not my concern. My concern is whether or not, 

among the billions of dollars that you will be responsible for handing out in grants and loans, can you just assure us that not one 

dollar will go to benefit either the President-elect or his family? 

Dr. CARSON. It will not be my intention to do anything—— 

Senator WARREN. I—— 

Dr. CARSON. ——to benefit any—any American, particularly—— 

Senator WARREN. I understand that. 

Dr. CARSON. It is for all Americans, everything that we do. 

Senator WARREN. But do I take that to mean that you may manage programs that will significantly benefit the President-elect? 

Dr. CARSON. You can take it to mean that I will manage things 

in a way that benefits the American people. That is going to be the 

goal. 

Senator WARREN. To the best you understand that. You 

know—— 

Dr. CARSON. If there happens to be an extraordinarily good program that is working for millions of people and it turns out that 

someone that you are targeting is going to gain, you know, $10 

from it, am I going to say, ‘‘No. The rest of you Americans cannot 

21 

have it’’? I think logic and common sense probably would be the 

best way. 

Senator WARREN. Yeah, although we do have a problem here, 

and I appreciate your good faith in this, and I do, Dr. Carson. The 

problem is that you cannot assure us that HUD money not of $10 

varieties but of multimillion-dollar varieties will not end up in the 

President-elect’s pockets, and the reason you cannot assure us of 

that is because the President-elect is hiding his family’s business 

interests from you, from me, from the rest of America. And this 

just highlights the absurdity and the danger of the President-elect’s 

refusal to put his assets in a true blind trust. He knows—he, the 

President-elect, knows—what will benefit him and his family financially, but the public does not, which means he can divert taxpayer 

money into his own pockets without anyone knowing about it. The 

only way that the American people can know that the President is 

working in their best interest and not in his own is if he divests 

and puts his assets in a true blind trust. Transferring his holdings 

to his children does nothing, as the head of the nonpartisan Ethics 

Committee said just last night. 

Since the President-elect refuses to address this voluntarily, we 

need to pass the Presidential Conflicts of Interest Act that I introduced with more than 20 of my colleagues, which would require 

him to do so. 

So, with the time I have left, I just want to follow up very quickly on a letter that I sent to you earlier this week and that we 

talked about in my office. 

Dr. CARSON. And I appreciated that. 

Senator WARREN. Good. And I appreciated it, too. As you know, 

more than 7 million children rely on HUD for housing—7 million 

people. Many of them are children, veterans, people with disabilities. For many of these people, HUD is the difference between a 

stable home and life out on the streets. But one major problem that 

we talked about is lead exposure. And according to the most recent 

HUD study, 62,000 public housing units, nearly 6 percent of our 

total public housing stock, are in need of lead abatement. 

You are a highly accomplished doctor. We spoke at length about 

the implications of lead and lead poisoning on our children. Can I 

just ask you to commit today that you will make sure that HUD 

resources are dedicated to dramatically reducing the number of 

public housing units where lead is a problem? 

Dr. CARSON. I can assure you that I will very much be working 

with you on that. Three-hundred-and-ten-thousand cases right 

now, children, each of which costs us enormous amounts of money. 

I do not think people even calculate that into that when we are 

talking about it. So, yes, I will be very vigorous in that area. 

Senator WARREN. I very much appreciate it. This is a particular 

problem for us in the Northeast. It is a particular problem in Boston, where our housing stock is old. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator WARREN. And it is absolutely critical that we get the 

lead out of these housing units and that our children have a chance 

to grow up without being injured by our own negligence. 

I look forward to working with you. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you for your leadership in that area. 

22 

Senator WARREN. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Carson. 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Heller. 

Senator HELLER. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and congratulations 

on the new chairmanship. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. 

Senator HELLER. I look forward to working with you. 

Dr. Carson, it is good to see you—— 

Dr. CARSON. You, too. 

Senator HELLER. ——and I welcome you. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator HELLER. And congratulations on your nominee and for 

your family. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator HELLER. I think that is wonderful. I still fondly remember Ben Jr. out in Carson City, Nevada, at a parade that we had. 

Then he came over to a chili feed. I do not know how much chili 

he ate, but his presence was appreciated, so thank you very much 

for taking that time. 

I want to reiterate something that I said in our conversation in 

my office, and that is, if you are the designated survivor, would you 

call my office and let me know? 

[Laughter.] 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator HELLER. I have got a couple of questions for you, and I 

think it is just—actually, I have got a lot of questions for you, but 

a couple of basic questions that I think every HUD Secretary 

should be asked. Question number one is: Do you believe that everybody should own a home? 

Dr. CARSON. I believe that everybody should have an opportunity 

to own a home. 

Senator HELLER. Do you believe that we should preserve and 

protect the 30-year home loan mortgage? 

Dr. CARSON. I believe the 30-year home loan mortgage has enabled millions of Americans to achieve the American dream. I think 

there are probably a number of ways to preserve that dream. 

Senator HELLER. Do you support a Federal Government backstop 

like Fannie or Freddie or any other entity similar to that of the 

U.S. housing financial markets? 

Dr. CARSON. I do support some type of backstop, but I also am 

very much in favor of introducing more private entities into the 

market. 

Senator HELLER. You will be willing to work with this Committee 

on what alternatives those may be? 

Dr. CARSON. I would very much look forward to doing that. 

Senator HELLER. Dr. Carson, I appreciate that answer. 

Let me go to another topic, and that is the fact that we have over 

300,000 veterans in the State of Nevada, in Las Vegas and Reno. 

Veteran homelessness remains a very serious problem, but things 

have gotten a little better, and thanks to the private sector and 

people getting involved and helping, but it still remains an issue. 

We have 200 veterans in Reno that have qualified for vouchers 

to help pay for rent. There are still about 50 vouchers available. 

My question is: How will you continue to help the homeless veteran, and how will HUD better coordinate the efforts with the VA, 

23 

nonprofits, and community organizations to help these veterans 

that are in need? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, you know, people who go out and risk life and 

limb for us are people that should never want for any basic thing. 

We should be willing to do it. You know, the VASH program, Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing program, has been very successful in reducing homelessness, but we still have a lot more to go. 

And I think this is another area where we must take a holistic 

viewpoint, and what I have advocated is that when a person joins 

the military, they be associated with a support group at that time. 

That support group follows them through their entire military career, particularly when they are in combat and after they are discharged. That way, you discover early on what problems are incurred and are able to intervene at that point, which is considerably cheaper than waiting until we see the results of post-traumatic stress disorder. 

Senator HELLER. Thank you, Dr. Carson. 

A statistic that is unfortunate in the State of Nevada is that 17 

percent of Las Vegas area homeowners with mortgages are underwater. What would you and HUD do to help Nevada homeowners 

that owe more on their mortgage than what their home is worth? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, as you know, we do have some programs targeted at such individuals if they qualify. But one of the things that 

I believe is essential is that we begin to—you know, like the 

RESPA program, giving people appropriate information before they 

actually get into mortgage trouble. 

I believe that one of the things that we could do at HUD is have 

a teaching mechanism, and it can be done on several different levels—at a very elementary level, at a moderate, and a more sophisticated level—so that people do not wind up in those situations. 

But the ones who are there already, I think there is a possibility 

of working with members of the private sector, and I think it is an 

area that we have neglected quite substantially. There are faith 

groups and there are business groups who are very magnanimous 

and willing to help, and I am going to be working hard on developing those opportunities for them, because in many cases, the reason they have not gotten involved is because there is a lack of 

trust. And if we can create that trust, there is an enormous amount 

of goodwill. I do not think we have to continue to come to the Government for everything. 

Senator HELLER. Dr. Carson, my time has run out, but thank 

you very much for your time. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator HELLER. And, BJ, I look forward to seeing you at the 

next chili feed. Thank you, and congratulations. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Donnelly. 

Senator DONNELLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and congratulations on your chairmanship. I look forward to working with you. 

Dr. Carson, congratulations on being here today. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator DONNELLY. To your son, I would like to welcome you to 

a chili event in Indiana anytime. 

[Laughter.] 

24 

Senator DONNELLY. We may have a little different recipe than 

Nevada, but I am sure you will enjoy it. 

Dr. Carson, I talked to you in my office about East Chicago. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator DONNELLY. Hard by the Chicago border, and we have a 

situation where a housing complex was built on top of an old lead 

company. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator DONNELLY. More than 300 families’ lives have been upended and put at risk due to the presence of significant levels of 

lead and arsenic in the soil. HUD is a big part of the relocation effort, and you will be coming in, in the middle of this. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator DONNELLY. In effect, it is going to be handed off to you, 

and roughly half the residents are still onsite. Half the residents 

we have been able to move. We are pursuing emergency HUD funding for the safety and security and ultimately the demolition of the 

complex. Can I have your commitment that HUD will continue to 

be part of the leadership of this effort and to dedicate the resources 

necessary to get this right for the residents and for the local officials of our town? 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. Whenever we are in a Superfund situation and lives are in danger and our children are in danger of being 

poisoned, I believe that becomes an emergency, and we will push 

very hard to complete that process. 

Senator DONNELLY. We are really going to need you as a teammate on this, and all of the children there appreciate it, and the 

families do as well. 

I wanted to ask you—when I was in the House, I served on the 

Veterans’ Affairs Committee. I serve on the Armed Services Committee now. One of the biggest housing challenges we face is for 

our veterans, who many are homeless. One of my cities, Kokomo, 

build a 29-unit complex for homeless veterans, and the question 

among some was: Would there be enough to fill this? Because Kokomo is not the biggest town. It is an awesome town but not the 

biggest town. And on day one, what we found out was 29 was not 

enough. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator DONNELLY. And it is that way across the country. And 

every night, there are veterans who are putting their heads down 

on concrete somewhere, and whether it is their economic situations 

or PTSD or some other challenge that they have, I would really 

like HUD to be part of the solution to this. The VA is deeply involved in this. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator DONNELLY. But with HUD, the first ‘‘H’’ is Housing, and 

we owe it to our men and women who have served this country to 

make sure they have a decent bed to sleep in at night. And if you 

would make sure that you have people dedicated to this proposition, it would go a long way toward meeting the commitments we 

have made and the promises we have made. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, I am very proud of the VASH program. I believe that it needs more enhancement, and what you are saying reflects very well my sentiments. 

25 

Senator DONNELLY. Thank you. 

Another challenge, you know, we have not only in Indiana but 

across this country is the opioid drug epidemic. I discussed with 

you the town of Austin, Indiana, where we wound up in a city of 

4,200 where 197 contracted HIV, and they have been fighting back. 

And I am very proud of the people of that town. You will have the 

opportunity to assist individuals suffering from chronic illness 

through housing and combating homelessness. As we look at this, 

could you tell me a little bit—you know, you have a tremendous 

medical background as well—your understanding of the connection 

between housing and health outcomes and trying to leverage the 

agency to combat opioid abuse and some of these situations we see? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, the nexus is great between health care and 

housing, and it is not just the contamination with lead and other 

agents, and it is not just the mold and things that cause chronic 

asthma, which is a huge medical cost for us across the country 

each year. But it is also the safety issue, the psychological wellbeing. 

I was talking to a student in Baltimore who was sitting in her 

living room studying, and a bullet came through the window. It becomes very, very difficult to concentrate under those circumstances, 

and so, you know, we need to be looking at safety as a component 

of that as well. 

So, again, some of the programs that we have—the Choice program, for instance, that tries to come in and ameliorate the environment, I think those are actually very, very important programs 

for the health of the individual. 

Senator DONNELLY. Thank you, Doctor. My time is up. The last 

thing I will say is the Hardest Hit program has been very helpful 

to not only my State but many others, so please keep that in mind. 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator DONNELLY. Thank you, Doctor. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. Senator Scott. 

Senator SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and congratulations 

to you on your new chairmanship. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. 

Senator SCOTT. We all wish you much success. I would also ask 

for unanimous consent to add to the record from the South Carolina African American Chamber of Commerce a letter of support on 

behalf of Dr. Carson. 

Chairman CRAPO. Without objection. 

Senator SCOTT. Thank you very much. 

Dr. Carson, and to your family, thank you all for being willing 

to serve. No question, if you are confirmed, your entire family will 

feel the impact of your service to this country. There is no doubt 

that if there is a person in this country that has really no reason 

to offer yourself to public service after all that you have already 

done, it would be you. You have done a fabulous job and have been 

a great example for many of us in many ways. Like Senator 

Menendez suggested, his background as well as my background 

and yours are very similar. 

I reached a type of conclusion that you have, however, that there 

is so much potential inside the human heart and the human head 

26 

and brain that we ought to look for ways to expose that potential—— 

Dr. CARSON. Exactly. 

Senator SCOTT. ——and allow for people to experience their full 

potential. That is such an important part of the equation, and I believe like you believe, I think, that the greatest thing that we can 

do for folks is help them find the path to their own independence. 

Dr. CARSON. Exactly. 

Senator SCOTT. It is not to suggest that Government does not 

have a role. It is, however, to suggest that Government does not 

have the role in someone’s life, and I think that your life demonstrates that as well as your answers to so many of the questions. 

I think it is been very important. 

I also want to thank you for your desire to do a listening tour. 

We have had many issues around housing for many decades, frankly. When I was on the county level, as the chairman of a county 

council in South Carolina, we had housing concerns and issues, and 

listening to the very people who live in the housing is such an important part of the formula that we should produce that will benefit the American people and specifically the American people within public housing—— 

Dr. CARSON. Exactly. 

Senator SCOTT. ——so that willingness is important. I wish that 

the outgoing Administration had the same objective of listening, 

even to Senators would be kind of interesting. So I would encourage you to listen to the Senators and folks who appoint you to the 

position at HUD. Whether that is Democrats or Republicans, it is 

very important to remain responsive, and I will use one case in 

point. There was a housing tragedy in Florida where Marco Rubio 

and Senator Nelson spent an enormous amount of time uncovering 

the challenges and the lack of inspections in HUD housing. We invited HUD to participate in one of the hearings. No one showed up. 

A $47 billion agency, thousands of employees here in Washington, 

DC, and we could not find anyone to listen, listen to the elected officials who had serious concerns about the living conditions of people in public housing. Not a single employee could find their way 

into the United States Chambers. I cannot imagine how that made 

them feel about their Government, about their opportunities for 

success, about their opportunities to find the next rung on the ladder. I expect that under your leadership the experience will be very 

different. 

Dr. CARSON. Incredibly different than that. 

Senator SCOTT. One of the things I found refreshing about your 

approach is, indeed, the notion of a fresh start in housing. As someone who holistically understands and appreciates the necessity of 

affordable, clean, stable housing as a part of that journey to the 

American dream, I would love to hear your thoughts on how you 

incorporate the holistic approach to the new opportunity that, if 

presented to you, you will do a fantastic job with. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, thank you, Senator Scott, and also for the 

wonderful example that you are for millions of people. 

The reason that I concentrate so much on the holistic approach 

is because when I look back historically at an agency like HUD— 

and there have been a lot of good programs, one program after anVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:37 Mar 06, 2017 Jkt 046629 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 L:\HEARINGS 2017\01-12 NOMINATION OF CARSON\HEARING\11217.TXT JASON
27 

other, and they have been targeted at specific problems, and it is 

good. But the progress perhaps has not been as great as one would 

like to see. And one of the things that I discovered as a neurosurgeon is you are much more effective when you bring in a biggerpicture view of things. Do not just look at, you know, the tumor 

that somebody has in their brain, but, you know, look at the whole 

person, and how can you bring health to this entire individual, and 

how can you then put them into an environment where they can 

thrive. And that is the same principle that I am looking at here. 

The programs that have been enacted in HUD over the years, 

you know, they are good programs, but in and of themselves, they 

are not bringing about the elevation of large numbers of people, 

and that is what we are really looking for. We do not want it to 

be a way of life. We want it to be a Band-Aid and a springboard 

to move forward. So that is why I place so much emphasis on education, and that is why I place so much emphasis on health care. 

You know, I am not just talking about lead abatement, but I am 

talking about perhaps putting clinics into neighborhoods so that 

people do not rely on the emergency room where it costs five times 

more and where you do not get the kind of follow-up that would 

prevent you from having Stage V renal disease. That is what I am 

talking about by a holistic approach. It saves us so much money 

if we begin to think that way. 

Senator SCOTT. Fresh start. Thank you very much. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. Senator Schatz. 

Senator SCHATZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for having me on the Committee, Ranking Member Brown as well. 

Dr. Carson, thank you for our visit earlier this week. 

Dr. CARSON. It was wonderful. Thank you. 

Senator SCHATZ. It was a pleasure to get to know you. There has 

been a lot of talk about your political philosophy in the context of 

your previous years of a political campaign running for President, 

your personal views about poverty. I appreciate all that, and I appreciate that you seem to understand that you are possibly entering into a new role, and that is, it is different. And I can see the 

evolution even during this hearing. 

But let me just talk about where the rubber hits the road when 

it comes to leading an agency, and that is in advocacy for the budget. In the end, in the Presidential budget process, in the appropriations process at this authorizing level, I need to know that you are 

going to advocate for the HUD budget, and for me, that is a threshold question that you are not going to—there are other nominees 

who I think some of us feel are going to lead an agency in order 

to undermine its mission. I do not hear that from you, but I would 

like to hear the words that you would like to advocate for the HUD 

budget. 

Dr. CARSON. OK. Not only do I want to advocate for the HUD 

budget, but, you know, in the process of doing a listening tour and 

talking to the people who are there already, I want to put together 

a world-class plan on housing in this country, and then I want to 

come to you with that world-class plan. And I want to convince you 

all that this is what we need to do. I do not know what that numVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:37 Mar 06, 2017 Jkt 046629 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 L:\HEARINGS 2017\01-12 NOMINATION OF CARSON\HEARING\11217.TXT JASON
28 

ber is going to be, quite frankly. It might be more; it might be less. 

But it will be what is required to accomplish what we need to do. 

Senator SCHATZ. Thank you. 

Following up on a couple of questions around rental assistance, 

you and I talked about the kind of perception among most people— 

and it is actually left, right, and center—that, in some instances, 

public housing can feel like a trap, and certainly, Members of this 

Committee and you yourself have transcended very difficult circumstances, and it was not Government that helped you to do that. 

I understand all that. But there is abundant evidence now that, 

specifically, when you think about assisting people in transcending 

their circumstances, when you need that hand-up rather than a 

handout, that it does start with housing. And that even though we 

have great difficulties in our public housing authorities, even 

though the Section 8 program is imperfect, there is now HUD data 

that demonstrates that families that get rental assistance do better 

than families that do not. And I am not talking about doing better 

during that period of time. I am talking about in terms of moving 

up the economic ladder, that actually, if you square away someone’s housing situation, that is the best way to situate them so 

they can deal with their health, their education, and whatever family problems they may need to contend with. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator SCHATZ. I would like your thoughts in that area. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, my thought is that, as I mentioned before, the 

things that we have been doing and the programs, they are lifesaving. They are a safety net. Do I think we can do better? Absolutely. And do I think we should be spending a little more time and 

effort concentrating on developing the potential of our people? And 

the answer to that is yes, particularly in light of the fact that we 

have so many fewer people than some of our competitors, and it is 

going to be absolutely essential that we do that. 

Senator SCHATZ. One final question. I used to run a social service 

agency in Honolulu, and one of the things that we came to understand before the vernacular was established was that especially 

somebody who has a co-occurring substance abuse problem or who 

is contending with mental health challenges or has employment 

issues, that they have no fighting chance to contend with any of 

those issues unless you deal with their housing. 

For many not-for-profit organizations that provide services or 

even provide housing, in some instances it is actually a prerequisite to get sober, to get clean, to have all your behaviors 

squared away in order to receive the housing assistance. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator SCHATZ. HUD and others have figured out that as attractive as that may be for the service provider and as sort of neat 

as that logic appears to be, the truth is it just does not work, and 

that is why Salt Lake City and many other States have adopted— 

and eventually, HUD adopted this idea of Housing First. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator SCHATZ. I would like your thoughts on Housing First, 

and I would like your assurance that you are certainly going to 

look at everything with new eyes, but that you appreciate the basic 

29 

premise, which is that unless you put a roof over somebody’s head, 

they are not going to be able to move up that economic ladder. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, you know, the Housing First program is certainly one of the ones that I want to study and look at the data. 

You know, I know of one individual who was chronically homeless 

and having a very difficult time with substance abuse who through 

that program not only became employed, but was able to purchase 

their own home. So, you know, there are some tremendous success 

stories there, and again, these are our political capital. So those are 

programs that we will study carefully, see what we can derive from 

those and how we can take those lessons and multiply them across 

the Nation. 

Senator SCHATZ. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you, Senator Schatz. 

Senator Rounds is next, but without objection, I am going to 

allow Senator Corker, because he has got some multiple conflicts 

here, to take a few moments. 

Senator CORKER. Very briefly. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator CORKER. I want to thank you for coming by the office. 

I look forward to working with you—— 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator CORKER. ——as you ascend to this very important position. I would not be in the U.S. Senate had it not been for efforts 

as a young businessman leading a nonprofit to help people have decent, fit, and affordable housing. This is an outstanding Committee; 

we have outstanding leadership. You are going to enjoy working 

with everyone here, and I look forward to helping you in any way 

I can. Thank you. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator CORKER. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you, Senator. Senator Rounds. 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

You know, we only get 5 minutes in which we are supposed to 

supposedly interrogate you, and I can tell you that after our first 

meeting, I shared with a number of people how much I enjoyed just 

the discussion, your interest and your desire to actually be actively 

involved. And I got to thinking back that I think there was some 

concern that you are not a housing expert, and that you do not 

have a background in construction and so forth. And I got to thinking that it seems to me that probably running this department is 

not really brain surgery, and that if you can handle that, you most 

certainly have the capabilities to step in and to look at this with 

fresh eyes. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator ROUNDS. One of the items that we talked about was Native American housing in South Dakota and in rural areas. I would 

just like—I am not sure that you even had a chance to look at any 

of the materials that we had shared with you, but there was a real 

strong concern on the part of Native Americans in the rural areas 

that the current formula in which funds are being distributed by 

HUD was not following that which had been recommended by some 

senior staff and, in fact, was following an old guideline. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

30 

Senator ROUNDS. I am not going to ask you to make commitments, but would you please look at and just agree that you will 

give it fair consideration that we find a fairer way to make sure 

that these folks that literally have homes that it is all they got. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator ROUNDS. And, in some cases, that might be a $5,000-valued home. That there be a way that we get these folks the resources they need so they get a chance at housing as well. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, thank you for advocating for them. I mean, 

this is a situation that has weighed heavily on my mind as I have 

learned more and more about it. You know, we have a $650 million 

budget plus $66 million, but the Native American, you know, 

Homeless—Housing Assistance Self-Determination Act has been 

sort of waiting to be re-upped for 6 years. So, you know, I am looking forward to the Senate going ahead and reauthorizing that act 

in the very near future, and the amount of red tape on the reservations, as you know, is astonishing. 

I mean, on tribal lands, if you want to build a house, you have 

to get permission from HUD, permission from the Interior. If you 

want to put a driveway on it, you have to get permission from the 

Department of Transportation. I mean, this is craziness. So we 

need to bring back a little bit of common sense and have the people 

associated with those tribes involved in that decision making. 

Senator ROUNDS. Do you believe that there is a possibility that 

we could coordinate efforts on VA housing as well on reservations? 

This is a case where last year, I found out that literally the Minneapolis region had led the Nation in the number of VA loans authorized in the entire Nation, and they had authorized five. This 

is a system which is broken. 

Dr. CARSON. It is totally broken. 

Senator ROUNDS. And yet VA has lots of different things they do. 

This is not part of HUD. Nonetheless, it seems to me there should 

be a coordinated effort to provide literally getting the results for 

people that live in poverty today, veterans who we should not be— 

they should not be looking for a handout. What we should be doing 

is providing them with a service, which they are entitled to. I 

would hope that perhaps with a fresh look there could be some coordinated efforts to provide that service. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, thank you, sir. I think veterans can be a healing balm for all of us because we can all agree on that. 

Senator ROUNDS. Also, in South Dakota, we are a small State. 

We receive funds annually for the Community Development Block 

Grants, CDBGs. They are often used in low- and moderate-income 

communities in order to invest in infrastructure developments that 

allow for less expensive housing to be developed. As a former Governor, I remember we looked forward to being able to utilize 

CDBGs. They were valuable. They really did extend the amount of 

money that we had available. 

Can you give me your assessment on CDBGs and a commitment 

that CDBGs are critical and if any way that they could be expanded? And in terms of dollars going into very good projects—— 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator ROUNDS. Just your basic thoughts on the CDBG program. 

31 

Dr. CARSON. Well, obviously, it is one of the major programs of 

the Community Planning and Development Division, very important, because it gives people a great deal of flexibility. I would be 

actually looking to increase the flexibility, but at the same time 

have a much better control of the finances. 

One of the reasons that the finances have not been carefully controlled and why the Inspector General has been critical, I think, 

lies with the fact that our IT is so far behind. Our computer systems are dated, and it is much easier for people to, you know, do 

things under the table. That is one of the things that I would be 

looking to fix right away. 

Senator ROUNDS. Very good. Thank you. I look forward to supporting your nomination, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Van Hollen. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 

your welcoming remarks, you and the Ranking Member. 

Dr. Carson, it is great to see you, and as somebody who represents the State of Maryland, I want to thank you—— 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. ——for the good work you did as a neurosurgeon at Johns Hopkins and the good work you have done in 

East Baltimore. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. And you certainly know the city of Baltimore, and when you and I met yesterday, I mentioned that after 

the Freddie Gray tragedy in Baltimore City, President Obama established a White House task force to help Baltimore City by trying 

to break down some of the silos among different Federal agencies. 

And I asked you then whether you would urge the incoming President to continue that White House task force. You indicated yes. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. I just want to make sure that we are on 

the same page. 

Dr. CARSON. I am very much on that page of integrating the silos 

and taking holistic views of virtually everything. The synergy that 

we derive from that will be great. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. And continuing this White House task 

force, I hope we can work together to continue that going forward. 

Dr. CARSON. The more we work, the better—together, the better. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. And Freddie Gray actually brings up the 

issue that there has been some discussion about of lead paint poisoning because there was significant evidence that he had been a 

victim of lead paint poisoning. So I am encouraged by your remarks. 

I would only say that there has been a lot of talk, and you made 

remarks about regulations hindering progress in certain ways. I 

can tell you in the State of Maryland we had a lot of absentee landlords who were fighting our efforts to put in place regulations to 

stop lead paint poisoning. So I assume that those kind of regulations are good regulations. Do you agree with that? 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. All right. 

Dr. CARSON. I am just a little weary of overregulating, as were 

the Founders of this country. 

32 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. And I think we all are. If there is a regulation that is not serving its purpose, we should be getting rid of it. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. If there is a regulation that is needed to 

protect the public good—— 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. ——we should probably put it in place. 

And I do—my colleagues have asked you about some of your previous comments as they relate to this new job, and I just wanted 

to do the same thing on some—— 

Dr. CARSON. Sure. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. ——because there is this ongoing conversation about Federal Government programs not creating the opportunity but creating dependency. We all want to use these programs to create opportunity so people can lift themselves up and 

become self-sufficient. That is a shared goal. And during the campaign, you did make some disparaging comments about housing 

subsidies specifically, along with a litany of other things saying, 

you know, ‘‘There are people who say I am compassionate, they pat 

people on their head and say, ‘There you are, poor little thing. I 

am going to take care of your needs.’ ’’ And you mentioned housing 

subsidies as one of those. 

As I understand your testimony today, you see an important 

positive role for housing subsidies as part of an effort to help families get on their feet—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. ——as a safety net and move on. Is that 

right? 

Dr. CARSON. That is correct. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. OK. I also agree with you—and we had 

this conversation in my office—about the fact—and you said it this 

morning—that just having a roof over your head does not necessarily solve someone’s problems. You want to expand educational 

opportunities, and I could not agree with you more. Greater synergy there would be important. 

I do want to also note, though, that many of those housing subsidies go to families who do not have children. In fact, if you look 

at the rental assistance figures, more than 4.5 million low-income 

households receive them, half of which are headed by seniors or 

persons with disabilities. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. And for those individuals, the wraparound 

help the need to be self-sufficient relates many times to health 

care. 

Now, during the campaign, the incoming President tweeted, ‘‘Ben 

Carson wants to abolish Medicare. I want to save it and Social Security.’’ That was October 25, 2015, 5:20 p.m. You have also—you 

have indicated you want to get rid of Medicaid, which is an important health safety net for so many people. So given your earlier 

comments about the importance of wraparound supports, the roof 

not being enough by itself, and the fact that so many millions of 

people who receive rental subsidies are seniors or people with disabilities, are you going to advocate within the Government abolishing Medicare and Medicaid? 

33 

Dr. CARSON. No. You have to go back and understand the context 

of replacing that with something else. Obviously, if you are not 

going to replace it, you are not going to get rid of major safety nets. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. Right. If I recall, you were going to replace 

both of those programs with health savings accounts. I just want 

to say, Dr. Carson, I am quoting the incoming President with respect to your position. 

Dr. CARSON. Yeah, but he was incoming President who was running against me. Remember that. 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. I understand. I just want the record to 

show, Doctor, that you said he distorted your position, not me. All 

right? 

[Laughter.] 

Senator VAN HOLLEN. Thank you. 

Dr. CARSON. OK. 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Tillis. 

Senator TILLIS. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to you and the 

Ranking Member. I am looking forward to serving on this Committee. 

Dr. Carson, welcome to your sons, their beautiful families, and 

especially to your wife. 

Gosh, I do not know where to start, but I do want to thank you 

for the amount of time that you spent in my office. I thought it was 

interesting that at least one person spent close to 4 minutes and 

30 seconds talking to you about the hypothetical of the incoming 

Administration potentially benefiting their business or the family 

members. That seems absurd to me, but do you know what I like 

most about the answer to your question? You would not get pinned 

down to a yes-or-no answer. You said what matters most is the 

benefit to the people that we are trying to serve. That, my friend, 

tells me that you are a very honest person. You could have been 

attacked for that. I do not know if it was just nuanced and the person who asked you that question did not understand what you said 

or if they just decided that was too—well, too principled an answer 

to take you on, so thank you for that answer. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator TILLIS. And keep those principles in place. 

Now, as a practical matter, before the fake news cycles start, I 

doubt seriously that scenario will ever come up, and I am kind of 

tired of the hypotheticals. I want to get to the specific. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator TILLIS. I was Speaker of the House in North Carolina, 

and I was criticized for the means but not the ends for a number 

of things that you are going to have to do, too. I will give you an 

example of a State-administered Government assistance program. 

It is called Unemployment Reform. I am the only Speaker of the 

House in the Nation that ratified a bill that did not extend longterm unemployment benefits. At the time, we were fourth highest 

unemployment in the Nation. Over five quarters, we dropped from 

10.4 percent to 6.4 percent, to the national average, while all the 

other States that did not take that action remained the same place. 

What is the best possible thing we can do for somebody who is on 

Government assistance? 

Dr. CARSON. Get them off of it. 

34 

Senator TILLIS. Get them a job. 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator TILLIS. So what we are here to talk about is not the 

ends. I think we all agree we want people to have housing. We 

want every child that grows up to be able to realize the American 

dream. This has to do with the means, and in my opinion, the 

means over the past couple of decades have failed. It is been a bipartisan failure—more recently with Democratic leadership, but before that, Republican leadership. 

Now, when you go into Housing and Urban Development, can I 

get your commitment that you are going to look at every program 

and determine which ones are actually providing the benefit to that 

next Ben Carson who may come up with his mom and be a neurosurgeon and eliminate every single obstacle in the way? 

Dr. CARSON. You can absolutely get my guarantee on that. 

Senator TILLIS. Do you think there are any sacred cows in HUD 

that stand in the way of that outcome? 

Dr. CARSON. I have been studying it carefully, and I have not 

seen one yet. 

Senator TILLIS. Do you think that, to a certain extent, over the 

years we have gone from providing housing to providing 

warehousing for an unacceptable number of people who are supported through the Federal Government? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, the key to your question there was the word 

‘‘unacceptable,’’ and yes, absolutely. 

Senator TILLIS. And do you believe that HUD and the other 

agencies have creeped their scope over time, and that you could be 

someone who may actually say that HUD needs to be smaller or 

some other organization needs to be smaller, so that the people 

best positioned to provide the safety net, the agency best positioned 

to provide the safety net can do it, and you can complement on 

some points and take the lead in others? 

Dr. CARSON. I believe we need to be much more efficient, and 

that efficiency involves being able to work together and stop duplicating services, and that is why I am very interested in working 

across the silos. 

Senator TILLIS. Do you believe that things that we can do to improve education outcomes to potentially—and in my case, hopefully—move forward with criminal justice reform, getting nonviolent offenders into rehabilitated settings and reducing recidivism will make your job easier? 

Dr. CARSON. It would make all of our jobs easier. Absolutely. 

Senator TILLIS. Do you believe that the role that social services 

outside of education that serve communities, at-risk communities— 

do you think that we should have all agencies create these duplicative operations? Or if I have got an at-risk school system, do I 

think the Department of—do you think the Department of Education should grow to serve that need, or that we need to do a better job of using the various agencies whose primary goal is to serve 

that segment of the community? 

Dr. CARSON. Definitely, we need to do a much better job. 

Senator TILLIS. So will you commit to me if you identify anything 

that seems duplicative to any other agency that you will come beVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:37 Mar 06, 2017 Jkt 046629 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 L:\HEARINGS 2017\01-12 NOMINATION OF CARSON\HEARING\11217.TXT JASON
35 

fore this Committee and say, ‘‘We want to move it, have someone 

else on it, and have them be accountable for the results’’? 

Dr. CARSON. I am very much looking forward to working with 

this Committee to do that. Absolutely. 

Senator TILLIS. I appreciate your forthrightness. I think you have 

done a great job in this Committee and a great job—— 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator TILLIS. ——in your career. I look forward to supporting 

your nomination. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you, sir. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. Senator Cortez Masto. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking 

Member. As a new Member of the Committee, I look forward to 

working with all of you and—— 

Chairman CRAPO. Welcome. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you very much. And, Dr. Carson, 

welcome. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. And congratulations on your nomination, and welcome to your wonderful family sitting here with you. 

So there have been a lot of questions. With your indulgence, I am 

just going to get right to them because I know it is getting a long 

day for you, and morning, and just my colleagues have asked a 

number of questions, and I would like to just kind of reaffirm some 

of them. 

In your role as the leader of HUD, will you promise to protect 

the LGBTQ community from discrimination? 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. And as we know, there is a long and 

well-documented history of patterns and policies of segregation of 

minorities in our neighborhoods. Would you continue to aggressively enforce the FHA, which is dedicated to ensuring access to 

our country’s housing is free of discrimination, including expeditiously and thoroughly investigating race and national origin complaints, ensuring fair mortgage lending for homeowners, and carrying out strategies to end homelessness? 

Dr. CARSON. I think the Fair Housing Amendment in 1968 was 

one of the best pieces of legislation we have had. It was modified 

in 1988. LBJ said no one could possibly question this. I agree with 

him. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Good, so you would continue to enforce 

it aggressively? 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Including the new HUD rule that requires local communities to assess their own patterns of racial and 

income segregation and make genuine plans to address them? 

Dr. CARSON. I will be working with the local HUD officials and 

the communities to make sure that fairness is carried out. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. OK. I appreciate you taking the time to 

come to my office and sit with me, and in that meeting, you made 

a number of statements, like you have this morning, on your vision 

for HUD and how the Department would or would not intervene 

in individuals’ lives. 

36 

Specifically, you said that we do not want, year after year, people 

vegetating in public housing, and these comments were a little concerning to me and for this reason: In Nevada, the fair market rent 

for a two-bedroom apartment is around $950 per month. In order 

to afford this level of rent and utilities, a household has to earn 

$38,000 annually. 

In Nevada, a minimum wage worker earns an hourly wage of $7.25, or $8.25, if their insurance is not being paid for, which is 

about $15,000 annually. In order to just cover that two-bedroom 

rent apartment, that individual making minimum wage would 

have to work 88 hours per week which, as you can see, does not 

leave much time for not only funding for education or much other 

opportunities to further themselves, other than just putting a roof 

over their head—— 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. ——for them and their families. That 

does not sound like to me somebody who is vegetating in public 

housing. 

You also mentioned to one of my colleagues that you believe that 

additional housing funding, rental assistance, is essential, but 

when we talked, you said there were limits. Do you believe that 

low-income Americans should have a limit to public assistance? 

And can you further define that for me? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, what I am saying is that we have to be cognizant of our fiscal responsibilities as well as our social responsibilities. Would we love to put every single person in a beautiful unit 

forever? Absolutely. That would be ideal, but we do not necessarily 

have the necessary funding. 

But the other thing that I emphasize is that safety net programs 

are important. I would never, you know, advocate abolishing them 

without having an alternative route for people to follow. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. So how would you help somebody find 

that alternative if all they are doing is working and coming home 

and working and that is all they can afford? How would you help 

them, other than giving them a time limit in that public housing 

and then they have to leave? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, there is a much bigger-picture issue here, and 

that is, fixing our economy and working very hard to create the 

right kind of atmosphere. When that happens, people have a lot 

more options in terms of their jobs, and people have to raise their 

salaries. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. OK. And then Nevada was hardest hit. 

We were Ground Zero for the foreclosure crisis. As the Attorney 

General of the State, one of my biggest partners was your agency. 

Aggressively, we worked together to bring relief to homeowners 

there, including what you talked about, financial relief but also financial literacy and education. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Through that, I created the Home Again 

program—and it still is in existence in the State of Nevada—to provide financial literacy and help to homeowners for the first-time 

home buyers, for individuals who want to get back into their 

homes. Is that a program that you see that you can continue to 

support and would look to help support in the State of Nevada? 

37 

Dr. CARSON. I will certainly study that program carefully and 

work with you to make sure that the goals of that program are carried forward. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. I appreciate your questions 

today—or excuse me—the answers to your questions today. Thank 

you very much. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. Senator Kennedy. 

Senator KENNEDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Carson, when you were performing neurosurgery at Johns 

Hopkins Hospital, were you concerned primarily with how much 

the operation cost and how much money you were generating for 

the hospital? Or were you primarily concerned with fixing your patient’s problem? 

Dr. CARSON. Primarily concerned with fixing the problem, absolutely. 

Senator KENNEDY. I want you to understand my agenda. I am 

not interested in taking away affordable housing from people in 

need. I am interested in seeing fewer people need affordable housing. How are you going to do that? 

Dr. CARSON. Again, it goes back to the conversation we were just 

having. We have got to give people a springboard to get out of a 

situation of stagnation and develop their God-given talents. We 

have got to create an environment, which we can do, you know, 

through tax reform, through regulatory reform, through trade reform, through a number of things that creates an environment, and 

then we can also—you know, the people who, for instance, are 

stuck in those situations, there is absolutely no reason that we cannot require some training, some education, some skills, which then 

allow them to be much more independent and move up. So that is 

really what I am talking about, just not sort of leaving the system 

as it is and just continuing to feed the system, but really trying to 

develop our people. 

And it goes back to what I was talking about before. If we are 

going to compete in the future with nations that have three and 

four times as many people as we do, we have got to develop our 

people. We have got to get the bang for the buck. 

Senator KENNEDY. I want to talk to you about the Community 

Development Block Grant program. As we talked about in my office, Louisiana had massive flooding last year. In March, the northern part of our State received about 25 inches of rain in 3 days. 

That is more rain than the city of Los Angeles got in 3 years. And 

then in August, South Louisiana flooded. We got about 27 inches 

of rain in 3 days. Most of the people who flooded did not live in 

a floodplain. They did not need health—or flood insurance. And the 

truth is if you get 27 inches of rain or 25 inches in 3 days, you can 

live on Mount Everest and you are going to flood. So we had a lot 

of people hurt badly. 

The American taxpayer has been very generous through the 

Members of Congress. Congress has appropriated about $1.6 billion 

to our people. It is going to come in the form of Community Development Block Grants. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

38 

Senator KENNEDY. Now, there is some confusion. Our Governor 

has a plan to spend part of that money. He does not have a plan 

to spend the other part. He has blamed HUD. I have spoken off the 

record with some of the HUD officials. They say it is the State’s 

problem. Frankly, I do not care whose fault it is. Congress has 

acted. The American taxpayer has been extraordinarily generous. 

I just want to figure out how to get that $1.6 billion to folks so they 

can start rebuilding their lives. 

Would you commit to me that, as Secretary of HUD—and I believe you will be Secretary of HUD—that you will ask your folks 

not to break any rules and not to break any laws, but to demonstrate some of that flexibility you were talking about? 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator KENNEDY. To keep their eye on the ball. Let us try to 

get the money into the hands of the folks for whom it was appropriated as opposed to discussing how many lawyers can dance on 

the head of a pin. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, thank you, Senator, and I enjoyed our conversation previously. You are singing my song here. You know, I 

have been talking to mayors across this country and housing authorities, and they all say what you just said. They appreciate the 

grant money, but they have to jump through too many hoops, and 

there is too much red tape. And I look forward to working not only 

with the people at HUD, but with the recipients of the grants, so 

we can figure out how to streamline this procedure. And by utilizing the IT technology to, you know, eliminate a lot of waste and 

fraud, I think we can—we can really get a lot of bang for our buck 

here. 

Senator KENNEDY. OK. Thank you. Thank you, Doctor. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you, sir. 

Senator KENNEDY. You will be a great HUD Secretary. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you very much. Senator Tester. 

Senator TESTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and as others have 

said before, I look forward to your leadership on this Committee, 

and I appreciate you being in this position. You have been there 

before and done a fine job, and I have no doubt you will do a fine 

job moving into the future. 

Dr. Carson, thanks for putting yourself up for this, and as others 

have said, thank you to your family—— 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator TESTER. ——for their support of you in this position. 

Others have talked about the similarities of how you have grown 

up with them. You have not grown up with the same similarities 

that I have. I have grown up in the West, and I can tell you that 

I would not be in the position I am in without the Homestead Act, 

without the measures that President Roosevelt took in the Dirty 

’30s. We would have been off the farm and gone from Montana. 

And even today—and I am not particularly proud of this, but even 

today, agriculture still gets significant subsidies to keep themselves 

going. So I think we both agree that Government plays an important role in whatever we do, and housing is no exception. 

I can also tell you that, from a regulatory standpoint, we do not 

enforce things like the Packers and Stockyard Act, and that is one 

39 

of the reasons we still have ag subsidies. So there is room for regulation in this. 

I want to touch on one thing that was said, and it deals with 

this, and you have no control over this, but why the blind trust is 

so important is because we elect people to offices like U.S. Senators 

and President of United States not for personal gain but for the 

betterment of the country. 

Dr. CARSON. Sure. 

Senator TESTER. And I can tell you, you are not going to be able 

to tell what happens if that is not put into a true blind trust, just 

like Jay Rockefeller did when he wasin the U.S. Senate. We are not 

asking him to do anything different than what has been done before. 

One of the problems with coming late to a Committee hearing is 

everything has been said, but not everybody has said it, so I am 

going to say it. Affordable housing is—and, by the way, thanks for 

coming to my office. Affordable housing—— 

Dr. CARSON. I enjoyed it, particularly seeing that buffalo. 

Senator TESTER. You are darn right. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator TESTER. You come out; we will show you some that are 

walking around. 

The affordable housing is critically important, and I can give you 

plenty of examples—talk about a holistic view, which I agree 

with—plenty of examples where there is not affordable housing. 

There is not the economic opportunity. There is not the opportunity 

to create jobs. There is not an opportunity to move the economy forward. 

I was just in Havre, Montana, 8,000, 10,000 people, visiting with 

business leaders. They cannot get new businesses to come in because they do not have a workforce that can be housed. So we are 

not talking just about poor. 

Dr. CARSON. Sure. 

Senator TESTER. We are talking about everybody if we are going 

to increase the middle class. You are going to be a big part of that. 

Another thing is the 30-year note. Pretty special to the United 

States. I mean, it really is. 

Dr. CARSON. Absolutely. 

Senator TESTER. But it has allowed tons—millions of people to 

get into housing that would not otherwise be there. 

So my question to you is: Do you believe it is possible to have 

a 30-year mortgage without a Government guarantee? 

Dr. CARSON. Yes, I think it is possible. 

Senator TESTER. How are you going to do it? 

Dr. CARSON. The private sector. We have to—but you cannot do 

it overnight. It has to be a gradual change, and that is something 

that I would want to work with this Committee on because I think 

we cannot do it in a haphazard way, and we cannot do it in an ideological way. We have to make sure that we preserve the dream 

for the American people. That is the key. 

Senator TESTER. I would love to work with you on it. I think that 

if you take a look at how long 30 years is, 30 years is quite a while, 

and I think a lot can change in 30 years. And I think, truthfully, 

40 

I do not see how it can happen. I know Canada does not have it, 

and I do not want to be like Canada. 

Dr. CARSON. No. I mean, they are OK. They are good people. 

Senator TESTER. Yeah, they are good people. They are. I can almost see Canada from my doorstep, so they are good people. But 

I can tell you—— 

[Laughter.] 

Senator TESTER. I can tell you that it is going to be difficult, but 

I am willing to listen to ideas and try to move forward. 

We talked about reducing red tape. There is an outfit called the 

Interagency Council on Homelessness, which works for ways to address homelessness in different geographies. One size does not fit 

all. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator TESTER. Will you commit to working with those folks to 

make sure that that can happen? 

Dr. CARSON. That is very important. You know, I have been that 

close to being homeless myself, so I can really understand that. 

Senator TESTER. Super. Not a lot of folks have talked about Indian country. My friend Senator Heitkamp may when I get done, 

but housing is a huge problem, and it is one of the reasons that 

we hope you come to North Dakota and Montana when you do your 

listening session to look at some of the large land-based tribes and 

the challenges that they have. 

But one of the biggest sources for Federal funding in Indian 

housing is block grants, and do you have any ideas on how HUD 

can really focus on Indian country? Because you are right, there is 

a lot of regulation. But there is also just unbelievable—you have 

come from it; you have seen it—poverty. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator TESTER. If you want to talk about at-risk kids, they are 

all Native Americans—— 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator TESTER. ——in the State of Montana for the most part. 

So do you have any ideas on how we can improve housing? Because 

it is a critically important piece of that holistic puzzle you talk 

about. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. Well, again, going back to the holistic model, 

you know, it is not just a matter of putting people in houses. Understanding what is going on, on those tribal lands. Why is there 

such a drug problem, for instance? What is facilitating that? Can 

we start further down the road and see if there is a way that we 

can stop some of the drug trafficking and then at the same time, 

simultaneously, work on the housing? 

As I mentioned before, getting rid of the regulatory burden for 

creating housing on the reservations, I mean, it is absolutely absurd. And working, I think, with some of the tribal leaders themselves, rather than imposing things upon them, I think all of those 

things will have an ameliorating effect. 

Senator TESTER. Thank you for your service, Dr. Carson. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you, sir. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. Senator Perdue. 

41 

Senator PERDUE. Dr. Carson, thank you for your lifetime of service and your willingness to serve again. Please do not take any disrespect from my absence here in the better part of this meeting. 

Dr. CARSON. I understand. 

Senator PERDUE. I have an Armed Service Committee going at 

the same time with General Mattis. 

It strikes me—I am incredibly impressed with the nominations 

of this President-elect, and you are not the least of those by any 

means. I have always admired your heart for humanity, and in our 

meeting earlier this week, I could see that. 

One of my first jobs, Doctor, was in the Head Start program, and 

I learned early when I put people around me to judge their hearts, 

and I think President-elect Trump did a great job in your nomination for this. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator PERDUE. I have—I am amazed with your quotes here: 

‘‘We do not need to help people achieve a position where we feel 

good about. Rather, we need to put people in a situation that they 

feel good about.’’ Would you elaborate on that, please? 

Dr. CARSON. Yeah. Well, you know, in many cases, you know, 

over the years, bureaucrats, politicians—no offense—have just, you 

know, done things that make themselves feel good and pat themselves on the back, and ‘‘We took care of this problem,’’ when, in 

fact, you go and you look at the people, and, you know, they are 

living in squalor, in dilapidated places, and there is danger. And 

you go outside, you are worried about whether your kid is going to 

come back safe. So, you know, we need to be looking at the end 

product rather than, you know, the beginning of the process. That 

is what I am talking about. 

Senator PERDUE. You had mentioned public–private partnerships. In USAID—I served on the Foreign Relations Committee— 

one of the great successes is Power Africa, where we put $8 billion 

up of U.S. taxpayer money and we attracted over $40 billion of private money to power a significant portion of Africa over the next 

decade. Talk to us a little bit about your vision about how you can 

get the private sector involved with Government to help heal our 

cities and develop. 

You had mentioned the other thing to Housing and Urban Development. In our private conversation, you spent more time talking 

with me about development, and I would like you to elaborate on 

that as it relates to the private investment. 

Dr. CARSON. Sure. Well, you know, we have got a lot of very talented people in this country in the private sector, and, you know, 

the low-income housing tax credit is an excellent example. It is 

seen over by the congressional Finance Committee. But, you know, 

that has allowed an enormous number of places to be renovated, 

and there is plenty more where that comes from. 

In Detroit, I was talking to a private developer recently about 

some of the work they were doing with blight, and it was costing 

$16,500 per building. They came in and, working with a recycling 

organization, were able to take the buildings down for $5,500. That 

was a way of using the private sector in a very positive way to 

clear large amounts of the city. Those are the kinds of things that 

we need to look for. 

42 

There is a lot of money in the private sector. There is a lot of 

goodwill in the private sector, and I want to work on those programs, and I want to study those programs that are working so 

that we can multiply them across the country. 

Senator PERDUE. Well, thank you again for your answers. Mr. 

Chairman, thank you. And God bless you for your willingness to do 

this. Thank you. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Heitkamp. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Mr. Chairman, welcome to that chair. We 

look forward to working with you. You have a brave new crowd. 

Two little kids’ chairs. I used to sit over in that one, so welcome 

to the new Members. 

Chairman CRAPO. I sat in that one over there. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator HEITKAMP. It is the little kid’s chair. Sorry. 

Dr. Carson, you know, there are a lot of people who kind of 

scratched their head when you were nominated thinking, ‘‘What 

does he know about housing? And how is he going to manage this 

agency?’’ And I have thought a lot about that, and you and I have 

had a great conversation, and thanks for coming. But we are not 

in the housing business. We are really in the people business as 

we look at this agency. 

And I grew up completely different than you. I grew up in a town 

of 90 people. My dad basically was a seasonal construction worker. 

My mom was a school cook. And like you, I was blessed with parents who really believed in me. Unfortunately, in America, there 

are so many children who do not have our blessing, and those children have suffered traumatic events in their life. It has limited 

their ability to grow emotionally. It has limited their resiliency. It 

is created problems for them that they carry with them the rest of 

their life. 

And I thought about you as a neurosurgeon. I thought of you as 

a man who understands brain function, and I thought, you know, 

you just might be the right guy if you focus on why people are in 

poverty, not judging people who are in poverty—— 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator HEITKAMP. ——but doing it in a way that we have not 

thought about before, that we have not even considered before. And 

so I would really challenge you to take your enthusiasm for change, 

which we all agree that we are an exceptional country that should 

provide opportunity, should provide that ability that you and I both 

have had—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator HEITKAMP. ——to come out of poverty, but we absolutely 

need to understand why people are in poverty—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator HEITKAMP. ——without judgment, and that is a critical 

piece for me. You and I have had a great chance to talk about—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator HEITKAMP. ——Native American issues. We had a great 

chance to talk about rural housing shortage, both of which Senator 

Tester raised. 

43 

I want to just hit two issues. One is transitional housing, and the 

other one is runaway and homeless youth. And they are on the 

other end of the spectrum of what I am talking about in terms of 

early intervention, but they are critical services for what we hope 

to do as a country when we look at judicial reform, when we look 

at the opportunity to change. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Transitional housing is something that I believe is essential to reentry for so many of the people whose human 

capital we are wasting every day, and I want a commitment from 

you that you will make transitional housing, as we look at judicial 

reform, a major priority in terms of housing and in terms of helping in that cycle. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, I think it is very important. As you know, we 

have the HEARTH program, the Homeless Emergency—— 

Senator HEITKAMP. But I am not really talking about that. I am 

talking about long-term, you know, transition so that when people 

are taken out of situations, whether it is disability, whether it is 

a homeless vet, they are provided wraparound services in a location 

where they feel and are nurtured and have the ability to transition. 

So we think, OK, you get 30 days and you are out. I mean, we have 

an opioid crisis in this country. We have a homeless crisis in this 

country. We have a trauma crisis in this country. It cannot be dealt 

with without dealing with transitioning people out of those situations. 

Dr. CARSON. Sure. Well, you relayed a very poignant story during 

our conversation, which stuck with me, which I have used to others. It is obviously very important, and I very much look forward 

to working with you. It is an important issue. 

Senator HEITKAMP. I want to talk about another issue that we 

deal with a lot, and that is human trafficking, youth trafficking, 

the abuse of children. A lot of people think—I like to say it is like 

when they talk about human trafficking or child sex trafficking, 

they sometimes kind of see this Laura Ingalls Wilder bounding 

through the prairie, and some dark cloud comes and swoops her up, 

and now she is in this horrible life. And I am not saying that does 

not happen, but I will tell you who these children are. These children have been thrown away, they have been given away, and they 

are abused every day. And if we do not get them off the street, if 

we do not do everything that we can to protect them at that point 

when they are leaving their family, they will be the most serious 

victims of crime in this country. 

And so we need to reauthorize the Homeless and Runaway Youth 

program. We need to do everything that we can to provide that environment, that shelter environment that prevents these children 

from becoming victims of the most heinous and horrific crime that 

is committed in this country. 

Dr. CARSON. Senator, you do not have to convince me about—— 

Senator HEITKAMP. Yep. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator HEITKAMP. You know, I got to get it in, though. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator HEITKAMP. Lay down the marker. And so I look forward 

to working with you, and I really look forward to you examining 

44 

the work that we have been doing on trauma and really seeing that 

as an entry-level opportunity for change in the early stages, especially in the programs that you run, because housing is 

foundational. It is foundational to family growth. It is foundational 

to raising healthy Americans. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. This is going to be a great Committee 

to work with. 

Senator HEITKAMP. We are a really great Committee. You are 

right. 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman CRAPO. We are. That is stipulated. 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman CRAPO. Senator Cotton. 

Senator COTTON. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Senator Brown, Dr. 

Carson, I want to apologize for my delayed arrival. We have had 

the nominations for General Mattis in Armed Services Committee 

and Congressman Pompeo in the Intelligence Committee, just two 

other nominees like yourself that reflect very well on Donald 

Trump’s Cabinet and his judgment in assembling that Cabinet. 

And I look forward to supporting both of them as well as your nomination, Dr. Carson. 

Dr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Senator COTTON. We spoke in our private meeting about a topic 

you have already discussed with Senator Heller and Senator Donnelly that is close to my heart, and that is the problem of homeless 

veterans. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator COTTON. I think there are something like 40,000 homeless veterans in America today. In Arkansas, we have several hundred of those veterans. I think it is an appalling failure of our Government and our society that we have veterans who are willing to 

risk their lives for our country, and they currently live in worse 

conditions than they did in the deserts of Iraq or the mountains of 

Afghanistan. 

I just wanted to give you an opportunity to lay in a little bit 

about how you think about this problem and what we can do better 

to solve this very disturbing problem of homelessness among our 

veteran population. 

Dr. CARSON. Well, thank you, and thank you for your service in 

the military to our country. 

You know, back in World War II, one of the things that helped 

us to get where we needed to get in the civil rights movement was 

the service of black Americans in the military, and when people 

began to see how they were willing to sacrifice everything but 

would come home to our own country and be ill-treated, it sparked 

something in the American psyche. And I am hopeful that at this 

stage of the game, the fact that we have homeless veterans and 

veterans who are not receiving appropriate medical care will have 

the same effect. It seems almost immoral that we could have a 

group of people who have sacrificed so much and then basically just 

kicked them in the pants. That certainly will not be the case with 

HUD. 

Senator COTTON. Well, thank you very much, and I look forward 

to working with you on this question, as I know so many Members 

45 

of this Committee do and the Congress does, and I know that you 

will be working closely with Mr. Shulkin—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator COTTON. ——in his confirmation as the Secretary of the 

VA. I just want to say thank you once again for your willingness 

to answer the call of service. I know sometimes leaving private life 

can be a challenge for individuals—— 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. 

Senator COTTON. ——but I am very glad that the President-elect 

has selected you to be our Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, and I look forward to working together with you and seeing you from time to time in front of this Committee. 

Dr. CARSON. Yes. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator COTTON. Thank you, Dr. Carson. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you, Senator. 

We have one Senator who may show up for his first round of 

questions, but at this point, there are no Senators in the room who 

have not already had one round. I know there is some interest in 

a second round, and so could I get, just by a show of hands, who 

is interested in a second round? So we have two or three. At this 

point—— 

Dr. CARSON. Do I get to vote? 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman CRAPO. Actually, we should ask you if you need a 

break. So you want to finish this. 

Let us go ahead and start the second round then, and I will probably at some point jump in with some questions, but I will go to 

you first, Senator Brown. 

Senator BROWN. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you 

for sitting here and your patience. I noticed you were not drinking 

that much water so you do not have to get up like Senator Crapo, 

like the Chairman and I did. 

Dr. CARSON. I am thinking about that. 

Senator BROWN. I know exactly your age. 

Chairman CRAPO. You let us know. 

Senator BROWN. I know exactly your age. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator BROWN. A little more specific on the issue that Senator 

Warren raised. Yesterday, the President-elect announced his intention to hang on to his investments, not put them into a blind trust. 

I appreciated, too, Senator Tester’s very specific admonition about 

that. This creates particular problems for HUD since he has invested—we do not know his tax returns, so there may be others. 

We know he has invested in at least one subsidized housing 

project, Starrett City. I wondered if you are aware of his stake 

there and if you discussed Starrett City with the President-elect. 

Dr. CARSON. I have not discussed it with him. I do know about 

it. 

Senator BROWN. OK. I do not see how HUD can avoid the appearance of a conflict should any issue arise on this property, do 

you? 

Dr. CARSON. Well, what I would hope would happen with this 

Committee is that we could come up with a suggestion that might 

be acceptable to all sides. 

46 

Senator BROWN. Let me start with one. Would you commit to report back to the Committee on any issue that should arise on a 

property, Starrett or otherwise—again, we do not necessarily know 

if there are others. Would you commit to report back on any issue 

that should arise on a property owned by Mr. Trump or his family 

in any contact you or any subordinates receive from the Trump organization or the White House or any other source, other than the 

normal back and forth between a project and its oversight officials? 

Would you commit to reporting to this Committee anytime that 

arises? 

Dr. CARSON. I would be more than delighted to discuss those 

issues. 

Senator BROWN. Well, will you then—thank you. Will you set up 

a process to identify those conflicts? 

Dr. CARSON. I will work with you to set that up. 

Senator BROWN. OK, good. Thank you for that commitment. 

One other question and response. Then I will not take my whole 

5 minutes, Mr. Chairman. I appreciated your comments in your 

testimony about the interaction between housing and health care. 

When Matthew Desmond signed his book to me—and I bought it. 

I want you to know that. He wrote on his book ‘‘Evicted’’, ‘‘Home 

equals life,’’ and that in a nutshell says what you are saying between the connection between housing, health care, and so much 

else. 

Dr. CARSON. Right. 

Senator BROWN. As I think Senator Van Hollen said, if you do 

not have a home, so many other things go wrong, obviously. So 

even if you are widely successful in promoting healthier housing, 

will it be any more than a drop in the bucket compared to the loss 

of health insurance for as many as 30 million Americans, including 

nearly a million in my State? Governor Kasich, a Republican, has 

admonished Republicans here, ‘‘Do not repeal the Affordable Care 

Act unless you replace it immediately because what do I do with 

700,000 people that have Medicaid now in Ohio.’’ His words. 

So my question is—you responded to him that if you are going 

to—that you seem less than enthusiastic about the way Medicare 

and Medicaid operate, so you said you would be willing to eliminate 

them, but only if something replaced them immediately. So does 

that meant that you would oppose the elimination of the Affordable 

Care Act without something replacing it immediately? 

Dr. CARSON. Yeah, I have said that many times. I do not think 

it is reasonable to pull the rug out from anybody. We always have 

to make sure that we are taking care of our citizens, regardless of 

our political persuasion. 

Senator BROWN. So if you had been the Senator from Florida instead of Senator Rubio, the vote last night might have been different—oh, never mind. OK. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator BROWN. Thank you, Dr. Carson. 

Chairman CRAPO. Thank you. Although we had a Senator on—— 

Senator BROWN. One more point. I just wanted to thank you. I 

am sorry. I am sorry. I am sorry. 

Dr. CARSON. You remind me of Columbo. 

[Laughter.] 

47 

Senator BROWN. I have actually heard that. It is all right. I have 

heard that before. I think I heard it from somebody in Youngstown. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator BROWN. Just one point. I wanted to thank you for what 

you are saying about lead, repeated comments about lead, both in 

public housing and in the private rental market. That is so important, the discussion we had about the percentage of toxic—toxic 

lead in almost every single home built before about 19—— 

Dr. CARSON. 1978. 

Senator BROWN. Yeah, but even the housing stock that is older, 

it is particularly bad—— 

Dr. CARSON. Exactly. 

Senator BROWN. ——because the housing is decaying. And in the 

city I live in, it is probably 85 to 90 percent of the homes, so thank 

you. 

And I apologize, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. CARSON. OK. 

Chairman CRAPO. All right. We did have a Senator on the Republican side who wanted to get here but is held up at the Armed 

Services Committee hearing that is going on right now, and Senator Warren, who was here, has been called back to the Armed 

Services Committee. She indicated that, if necessary, she could 

submit her further questions for the record. 

And so, at this point, we do not have any further questioning for 

you, Dr. Carson, and we will wrap up the hearing. I will say to all 

Senators and Dr. Carson, we have a practice of submitting questions following the hearing for the record. 

Senator BROWN. She does have a—— 

Chairman CRAPO. Oh, did you have a question? OK. Senator Cortez Masto, I did not realize you wanted another round. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. I appreciate that, and I will be brief because you have done an incredible job. And I appreciate the comments and the holistic approach that you have to helping individuals, Dr. Carson. 

There is one thing of interest to me, however, that you have 

talked about, which is public–private partnerships and the financing when it comes to public–private partnerships. I have not really 

had a conversation with you and what your thoughts are on how 

that would be addressed when it comes to housing and mortgages. 

Dr. CARSON. When I talk about public–private partnerships, I am 

talking about having people in the private sector actually invest 

their own resources in either building or renovating or refurbishing 

housing that is then used by HUD to house people. So they have 

to obviously be incentivized in order to do that, but the big stumbling block is the initial capital to be able to get it done. And as 

long as they can realize a return on that capital investment—you 

know, this country was built on entrepreneurial risk taking, so that 

is always going to be a part of who we are, and that is what I want 

to capitalize upon. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. So, in other words, are you envisioning 

a role for private equity capital to invest in the future housing 

growth and mortgages and housing for individuals and homeownership? 

48 

Dr. CARSON. I will be engaging in a number of conversations with 

the FHA Administrator, with this Committee, and with finance experts at HUD to figure out the best ways so that we can always 

have a win-win situation. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. So what you are saying does concern me 

because of the fact that Nevada was a foreclosure crisis, Ground 

Zero for the foreclosure crisis, and a lot of that was money that we 

saw come in from Wall Street, big investments coming in for these 

mortgages, and individuals really at the end of the day lost their 

homes—— 

Dr. CARSON. But I think you are talking—— 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. ——because there was an investment 

from Wall Street. So I am just curious. That is why if you could 

elaborate your thoughts on that. 

Dr. CARSON. Yeah. I think you are talking about, you know, 

predatory people who came in and took advantage of people. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. It was a combination. The big banks 

were involved as well with some of their teaser rates, but there 

was—Wall Street was involved, so that is why. And you know 

what? We can follow up on this individually. I just want to put that 

in your ear. That is a concern of mine and something I will be looking out for. 

Dr. CARSON. I would look forward to working with you on that 

because I do not want those predators swooping in either. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. I appreciate that. 

Dr. CARSON. All right. 

Chairman CRAPO. All right. Thank you. 

With that, the questioning is concluded, and to all of the Senators, we ask that you get your questions for the record in by close 

of business on Tuesday, next Tuesday, close of business next Tuesday. And, Dr. Carson, we ask that you promptly respond to those 

so that we can move forward as promptly as we can. 

Dr. CARSON. I will be happy to do that, and I want to thank you, 

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice Chairman, and all of the Committee Members, both present and absent, for what was actually kind of fun. 

Thank you. 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman CRAPO. It is always better to be at this end of this 

kind of hearing rather than the beginning when you are sitting in 

that chair. Dr. Carson, thank you also for coming here and being 

well prepared. This hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:32 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 

[Prepared statements, biographical sketch of nominee, responses 

to written questions, and additional material supplied for the 

record follow:] 

49 

1 Carson Scholars Fund website. http://carsonscholars.org/about-csf/our-impact/ 2 Chetty, Raj. How Can We Improve Economic Opportunities for Our Children? The Equality 

of Opportunity Project. http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/ 3The World Factbook. Central Intelligence Agency. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/printlch.html 4The World Factbook. Central Intelligence Agency. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DR. BENJAMIN CARSON 

TO BE SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

JANUARY 12, 2017 

Mr. Chairman, Senator Brown, and distinguished Members of the Committee, 

thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. And thank you to Senator 

Marco Rubio, who is dedicated to empowering and uplifting all Americans, for that 

kind introduction. 

Let me begin by thanking President-elect Trump for nominating me to be Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. I am grateful for his friendship, his 

trust and his confidence in my ability to work hard on behalf of the millions of 

Americans who rely on the services provided by HUD. 

I would also like to thank my wife Candy, to whom I have been married for the 

last 41 years, and who has been a pillar of strength for my family. All three of our 

three sons are here with me today as well. 

I grew up in inner city Detroit with a single mother who had a 3rd grade education, but who worked numerous jobs to keep a roof over our heads and to put food 

on our table. I understand housing insecurity—we were forced to move from Detroit 

to Boston to live with relatives because she couldn’t afford our house. However, 

thanks to her diligence, were able to move back into that house in Detroit 6 years 

later. 

My mother showed me the power of perseverance, the importance of hard work, 

and inspired me to always achieve excellence. While my mother was one of many 

children in her family and married at the very young age of 13, the fact that I am 

her son—nominated to be a cabinet secretary—shows that great opportunity can be 

available to those who grow up in a challenging environment. Thanks to her, I am 

here today. She pushed me to excel beyond my wildest dreams. She instilled in me 

a love ofreading and learning, which is why I started the Carson Scholars Fund, 

a scholarship program my wife Candy and I started to help promising young students go to college. We’ve given 7,300 scholar awards since we founded the Carson 

Scholars Fund 20 years ago. We’ve also set up 160 reading rooms across America, 

mainly in Title I schools for low-income children, where, last year, those students 

logged 15 million minutes of independent reading. 1 Our long-term goal is to nurture 

the entire school where these are located and allow students to develop the skills 

necessary to become lifetime readers and learners. 

Mr. Chairman, I come before this Committee with the belief that anyone in America can, should, and will be able to achieve their dreams, but that sometimes the 

most basic needs prevent these people from reaching their potential. Simply put, it’s 

difficult for a child to learn at school if he or she doesn’t have an adequate place 

to live. In these situations, Government can and should help. However, I believe we 

need to ensure that the help we provide families is efficient and effective. It cannot, 

and should not, trap people in an intergenerational cycle of poverty. 

We must revisit the ways we do things in order to give people an opportunity to 

climb the economic and social ladder. Right now, social mobility has become stagnant. 2 However, if we think holistically about this—we will know that it’s more 

than just housing. We must include the areas of health care, education, jobs and 

the skills to do them, in addition to transportation, as we develop the best approach. 

In order to provide access to quality housing for the elderly, disabled, and low-income we need to work across silos, and I intend to do that at HUD, should you confirm me. I want to make America’s neighborhoods stronger and more inclusive. 

We need to harness the power of all Americans if we are to compete globally— 

we cannot afford to leave anyone behind. It’s a moral and economic imperative. 

Right now, China has a population of nearly 1.4 billion people; 3 India has almost 

1.3 billion 4—these countries have about 4 times as many people as we do. So we 

need to make sure all our citizens are productive and contributing, as they are able, 

to our Nation and our economy. 

We need to empower people to pursue their dreams, including the American 

Dream. I have dedicated my life to serving those with the greatest need—either 

through the healing power of medicine or through encouraging young people to stay 

in school and go to college. 

50 

5Liptak, Adam. ‘‘Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’’, New York Times, April 23, 

2008. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html 6 Blow, Charles. ‘‘Black Dads Are Doing Best of All’’. New York Times. June 8, 2015. https:// 

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/08/opinion/charles-blow-black-dads-are-doing-the-best-ofall.html?lr=2 7Layton, Lindsey. ‘‘One in Five U.S. Schoolchildren Are Living Below Federal Poverty Line’’. 

Washington Post. May 28, 2015. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/one-in-fiveus-schoolchildren-are-living-below-federal-poverty-line/2015/05/28/2402f164-0556-11e5-bc72- 

f3e16bf50bb6lstory.html?utmlterm=.88271ab06537 8Matthew, Dayna Bowen, Edward Rodrigue, and Richard V. Reeves. ‘‘Time for Justice: Tackling Race Inequalities in Health and Housing’’. The Brookings Institution. October 19, 2016. 

https://www.brookings.edu/research/time-for-justice-tackling-race-inequalities-in-health-andhousing/ 9 Ibid. 

10 Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program. ‘‘Where We Live Matters for Our Health: 

The Links Between Housing and Health’’. Craig Pollack, M.D., M.H.S., University of PennsylAs a physician, I am used to working on large surgical teams like I did to separate twins joined at the back of the head for the first time in history, and making 

detailed plans to develop creative ways to solve complex problems. I directed pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins, as well as serving on the boards of two major 

American companies—Kellogg’s and Costco—so I understand the private sector and 

the importance of results and accountability. 

Throughout my life, I have done things that many deemed impossible. I pledge 

to work with this Committee and the dedicated career staff at HUD to solve difficult, seemingly obstinate issues and address the needs of those who rely on the 

services provided by HUD. 

Many Members of this Committee with whom I’ve met have asked me why I 

would want to run HUD. It’s a good question. I want to help heal America’s divisiveness, and I think HUD is positioned to help in that healing. One of our biggest 

threats right now is this political division, racial conflict, and class warfare. It is 

ripping this country apart—we need to tamp down this animosity. As Jesus said 

and later Lincoln built on, ‘‘a house divided against itself cannot stand.’’ I see HUD 

as part of the solution, helping ensure housing security and strong communities. 

HUD has several different ways it helps people, through insuring financing for that 

first home to helping those in poverty, which has been an intractable problem for 

decades. The U.S. has 25 percent of the world’s inmates, 5 72 percent of black babies 

are born out of wedlock, 6 and one in every 5 children in the U.S. lives in poverty. 7

Those are daunting numbers, and in the United States of America, it’s a tragedy. 

We can do better. 

There is a strong connection between housing and health, which is of course my 

background. Housing (and housing discrimination) is a ‘‘social determinant’’ of 

health. 8 Substandard housing conditions such as pest infestation, the presence of 

lead paint, faulty plumbing, and overcrowding, which disproportionately affect lowincome and minority families, lead to health problems such as asthma, lead poisoning, heart disease, and neurological disorders. 9 These problems occur across 

America—in cities as well as suburbs and rural areas. 

• Most Americans spend about 90 percent of their time indoors, and an estimated 

two-thirds of that time is spent in the home. Very young children spend even 

more time at home and are especially vulnerable to household hazards. I can 

tell you that lead poisoning irreversibly affects brain and nervous system development, resulting in lower intelligence and reading disabilities. An estimated 

310,000 children ages 1 to 5 have elevated blood lead levels. Most lead exposures occur in the home, particularly in homes built before 1978 that often contain lead-based paint and lead in the plumbing systems. 

• Deteriorating paint in older homes is the primary source of lead exposure for 

children, who ingest paint chips and inhale lead-contaminated dust. Between 

1998 and 2000, a quarter of the Nation’s housing—24 million homes—was estimated to have significant lead-based paint hazards. 

• Substandard housing conditions such as water leaks, poor ventilation, dirty carpets and pest infestation can lead to an increase in mold, mites, and other allergens associated with poor health leading to more medical costs. Indoor allergens 

and damp housing conditions play an important role in the development and 

exacerbation of respiratory conditions including asthma, which currently affects 

over 20 million Americans and is the most common chronic disease among children. Approximately 40 percent of diagnosed asthma among children is believed 

to be attributable to residential exposures. In 2004, the cost of preventable hospitalizations for asthma was $1.4 billion, a 30 percent increase from 2000. 10

51 

vania Philadelphia VA Medical Center; Egerter, Susan Ph.D. Sadegh-Nobari, Tabashir, M.P.H. 

Dekker, Mercedes M.P.H., Braveman, Paula, M.D., M.P.H. University of California, San Francisco Center on Social Disparities in Health. September 2008. http://rwjcsp.unc.edu/about/ 

news/PollacklRWJFl10032008.pdf 11Shoag, Daniel and Peter Ganong. ‘‘Why Has Regional Income Convergence Declined?’’ 

Hutchins Center on Fiscal and Monetary Policy at Brookings Working Paper #21, August 4, 

2016. https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/wp21lganongshoaglfinal.pdf 12 ‘‘Housing Development Toolkit’’, The White House, September 2016. https:// 

www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/images/HousinglDevelopmentlToolkit%20f.2.pdf 13 Resseger, Matthew. ‘‘The Impact of Land Use Regulation on Racial Segregation: Evidence 

From Massachusetts Zoning Borders’’. November 26, 2013. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/ 

resseger/files/ressegerljmpl11l25.pdf 14 National Association of Home Builders. ‘‘Eye on Housing: National Association of Home 

Builders Discusses Economics and Housing Policy’’. May 5, 2016. http://eyeonhousing.org/ 

2016/05/regulation-24-3-percent-of-the-average-new-home-price/ 15Timiraos, Nick. ‘‘Credit Restrictions Cost Home Buyers ‘Deal of a Lifetime’.’’ Wall Street 

Journal, December 4, 2016. http://www.wsj.com/articles/credit-restrictions-cost-home-buyersdeal-of-a-lifetime-1480874593 16Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania,. ‘‘Why Millennials Are Delaying Home 

Buying More Than Ever’’, November 18, 2015. http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/ 

why-millennials-are-delaying-home-buying-more-than-ever/ 17 Russonello, Giovanni. ‘‘How the Fed’s Interest Rate Increase Can Affect You’’. New York 

Times, December 14, 2016. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/14/business/economy/how-thefeds-interest-rate-increase-can-affect-you.html 18Timiraos, Nick. ‘‘Credit Restrictions Cost Home Buyers ‘Deal of a Lifetime’.’’ Wall Street 

Journal, December 4, 2016. http://www.wsj.com/articles/credit-restrictions-cost-home-buyersdeal-of-a-lifetime-1480874593 19 Ibid. 

I am passionate about health as you may have guessed, and where one lives 

should not cause health problems. So I look forward to working with HUD’s Safe 

and Healthy Homes program and others on these issues. We cannot have social mobility without a strong healthy foundation in the home. 

There are other important issues for HUD as well. President-elect Trump has 

talked about the importance of deregulation. That applies to housing as well. Overly 

burdensome housing regulations are bad for everyone and are increasing income inequality. Research by Harvard professors found that by reducing the ability of people to move around within an economy and between different economies, strict land 

use regulations are reversing 100 years of income convergence across U.S. States. 

As housing prices in wealthy neighborhoods rise, migration of unskilled workers to 

those areas is deterred. But when land use for local housing supply is less regulated, workers of all skill types will choose to move to the productive locations. 

Many forms of land use regulation have perpetuated segregation. 11 Complex webs 

of covenants and zoning ordinances across U.S. cities—in particular for low-density 

development—superimposed on already highly-segregated neighborhoods, have 

slowed integration. 12 When there are wide economic gaps by race, as we have in 

the U.S., exclusionary land-use policies based on families’ economic circumstances 

entrench racial segregation. 13

Regulations also are costly. They increase the average price of a new home by 

over 24 percent according to the National Association of Home Builders. 14 Those 

costs price out many young, first-time home buyers. Buying a home is the best way 

to build up an asset, and to live the American Dream. Housing dollars act as multipliers throughout the broader economy. In the 1990s, single-family home construction accounted for 2 percent of GDP; today, it’s half that. 15 We need to shore up 

our Nation’s housing finance sector, and HUD plays a crucial role in the housing 

finance system through FHA and Ginnie Mae—helping borrowers with less than 

perfect credit or first-time homeowners get their toe in the door of a home they can 

call their own. But credit to purchase a house has been constricted since the 2008 

crash and many younger households have been held back from buying that first 

home. 16 With the Fed raising rates recently, mortgages are likely to get more expensive. 17

Loans are now bifurcated: 18 the well-off have their pick of loans and lenders while 

many others without solid credit or stable incomes are locked out 19—one of the reasons the economic recovery was slower than many would have liked. Homeownership rates have fallen on a year-over-year basis in every quarter for the last 10 

years, and a surge in renting has dropped the homeownership rate to a 50-year 

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20Timiraos, Nick. ‘‘New Housing Headwind Looms as Fewer Renters Can Afford To Own’’. 

Wall Street Journal, June 7, 2015. http://www.wsj.com/articles/new-housing-crisis-looms-asfewer-renters-can-afford-to-own-1433698639 21 U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. ‘‘The 2016 Annual Homeless Assessment Report (AHAR) to Congress’’. November 2016. https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/ 

documents/2016-AHAR-Part-1.pdf 22 U.S. Department of Veteran’s Affairs. ‘‘Veteran Homelessness Cut Nearly Half, Down 47 

Percent Since 2010’’. August 1, 2016. http://www.blogs.va.gov/VAntage/29697/federal-agenciesannounce-veteran-veteran-homelessness-cut-nearly-half-down-47-percent-since-2010-cut-morethan-half-since-2010/ 23 U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. ‘‘Resources and Assistance to Support HUD’s Community Partners: Continuums of Care’’. https://www.hudexchange.info/programs/coc/ 24 U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. CPD Appropriations Budget. 

https://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/programloffices/commlplanning/about/budget 25 U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Community Development Block 

Grant Program—CDBG. https://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/programloffices/ 

commlplanning/communitydevelopment/programs 

low. 20 Banks are loath to participate in low down payment programs through FHA 

for fear of getting sued if the borrowers default. So we need to make sure HUD and 

FHA are fulfilling their missions to help people build up an asset, like a home, 

which will help them climb up the rungs of the economic ladder. 

Although homelessness is down, 21 even among veterans, 22 we must continue to 

tackle this problem by continuing to build strong partnerships with counties and cities across America through the Continuums of Care. 23 I want to build on this 

progress—everyone should have a decent roof over their heads, and get treatment, 

job training, or whatever they need to help them achieve self-sufficiency. This 

strengthens our Nation and lightens the load for all. 

HUD also helps communities through the CDBG program. It’s a program with a 

long history that allocates nearly $3 billion per year 24 to over 1,000 local communities 25 for a variety of projects that benefit low- and moderate-income households. 

CDBG was, for example, very important during Hurricane Katrina, and I hope to 

evaluate how we can improve the program further. It’s important for all HUD programs to be evaluated so we know what works and what doesn’t and where we can 

cut red tape. 

My life story is an example of can happen when we dedicate ourselves to improving the lives of others. Everyone deserves a shot at the American Dream, and I intend to fight for those who are still trying to reach their full potential. 

Mr. Chairman, Senator Brown, Members of this Committee, there is a lot of work 

ahead of us. However, I’m confident that by working together and tackling the problems head-on, we can improve the lives of all families and communities across the 

country, wherever they live and no matter their race, creed, color, or orientation. 

If confirmed, I will work hard on behalf of the American people to help realize and 

seize opportunity, and bring the promise of America to all. 

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