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i 

98–915 2017

[H.A.S.C. No. 114–87] 

UNDERSTANDING AND DETERRING 

RUSSIA: U.S. POLICIES AND STRATEGIES 

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

HEARING HELD 

FEBRUARY 10, 2016 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

WILLIAM M. ‘‘MAC’’ THORNBERRY, Texas, Chairman 

WALTER B. JONES, North Carolina 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

JEFF MILLER, Florida 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina 

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey 

ROB BISHOP, Utah 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN KLINE, Minnesota 

MIKE ROGERS, Alabama 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY, Texas 

DOUG LAMBORN, Colorado 

ROBERT J. WITTMAN, Virginia 

DUNCAN HUNTER, California 

JOHN FLEMING, Louisiana 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

CHRISTOPHER P. GIBSON, New York 

VICKY HARTZLER, Missouri 

JOSEPH J. HECK, Nevada 

AUSTIN SCOTT, Georgia 

MO BROOKS, Alabama 

RICHARD B. NUGENT, Florida 

PAUL COOK, California 

JIM BRIDENSTINE, Oklahoma 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana 

BRADLEY BYRNE, Alabama 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

RYAN K. ZINKE, Montana 

ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York 

MARTHA MCSALLY, Arizona 

STEPHEN KNIGHT, California 

THOMAS MACARTHUR, New Jersey 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma 

ADAM SMITH, Washington 

LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania 

SUSAN A. DAVIS, California 

JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

MADELEINE Z. BORDALLO, Guam 

JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut 

NIKI TSONGAS, Massachusetts 

JOHN GARAMENDI, California 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., Georgia 

JACKIE SPEIER, California 

JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

SCOTT H. PETERS, California 

MARC A. VEASEY, Texas 

TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii 

TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas 

DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey 

RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona 

MARK TAKAI, Hawaii 

GWEN GRAHAM, Florida 

BRAD ASHFORD, Nebraska 

SETH MOULTON, Massachusetts 

PETE AGUILAR, California 

ROBERT L. SIMMONS II, Staff Director 

KATIE SENDAK, Professional Staff Member 

WILLIAM S. JOHNSON, Counsel 

BRITTON BURKETT, Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Davis, Hon. Susan A., a Representative from California, Committee on Armed 

Services ................................................................................................................. 1 

Thornberry, Hon. William M. ‘‘Mac,’’ a Representative from Texas, Chairman, 

Committee on Armed Services ............................................................................ 1 

WITNESSES 

Farkas, Dr. Evelyn N., Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for 

Russia/Ukraine/Eurasia ....................................................................................... 7 

Hill, Dr. Fiona, Director, Center on the United States and Europe, The 

Brookings Institution ........................................................................................... 2 

Stavridis, ADM James G., USN (Ret.), Dean, The Fletcher School, Tufts 

University ............................................................................................................. 8 

APPENDIX 

PREPARED STATEMENTS: 

Farkas, Dr. Evelyn N. ...................................................................................... 69 

Hill, Dr. Fiona ................................................................................................... 49 

Stavridis, ADM James G. ................................................................................ 78 

DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD: 

[There were no Documents submitted.] 

WITNESS RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS ASKED DURING THE HEARING: 

[There were no Questions submitted during the hearing.] 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING: 

Ms. Bordallo ...................................................................................................... 93 

Mr. Garamendi ................................................................................................. 93 

(1) 

UNDERSTANDING AND DETERRING RUSSIA: 

U.S. POLICIES AND STRATEGIES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES, Washington, DC, Wednesday, February 10, 2016. 

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in room 

2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. William M. ‘‘Mac’’ 

Thornberry (chairman of the committee) presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM M. ‘‘MAC’’ THORNBERRY, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM TEXAS, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES 

The CHAIRMAN. Committee will come to order. 

Today the committee meets to hear testimony on understanding 

and deterring Russia. Events just over the past year, as Russia has 

consolidated its gains in Ukraine, has intervened in Syria, has continued to take unprecedented provocative actions against NATO’s 

[North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s] ships and planes, all point 

to the importance of this topic and of making sure that we have 

the capability needed to protect the country, our allies, and our interests. 

That is part of the reason that the committee will again have 

hearings to explore the security environment we face, including 

threats and the current state of our military, before we hear from 

the Secretary [of Defense] about whether the administration’s 

budget request answers those challenges. 

But I view today not only about Russia. In many ways it does 

present unique challenges, as it has the only nuclear arsenal, 

which it continues to modernize, that is comparable to ours; but 

other countries are also going to school on the tactics Putin is using 

in Ukraine, Syria, and elsewhere. I think we can expect to see 

more of these again and again in other places by other actors. 

So we need to understand the challenges presented by the only 

nation that continues to pose an existential threat to the United 

States, and we need to prepare for the wide spectrum of national 

security challenges posed by Russia and by others. 

Today we are grateful to have three highly qualified witnesses to 

help explore these matters. But before I introduce them I will yield 

to Mrs. Davis, of California, who is filling in for Mr. Smith. 

STATEMENT OF HON. SUSAN A. DAVIS, A REPRESENTATIVE 

FROM CALIFORNIA, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am happy to be 

here for Mr. Smith, and we certainly welcome him back just as 

soon as possible. 
2 

I want to thank our witnesses for appearing this morning. Your 

expertise is a valuable resource to us on the important topic of Russia’s strategic motivations, and I look forward to your testimony. 

Russian nationalism, as we know, has fueled a foreign policy 

marked by territorial aggression and expeditionary military activities. They have used enhanced capabilities and hybrid warfare 

techniques that have been instrumental in these endeavors. 

These developments are further compounded by Russia’s noncompliance with the Intermediate [Range] Nuclear Forces Treaty 

and its energetic policy of discrediting the United States, NATO, 

and the European Union. 

So I am very interested, as is the chairman and I know all the 

members here on the committee, in your thoughts on what may be 

motivating Russia to be so adversarial and how the United States 

and its many allies can most effectively respond to the difficult security challenges Russia presents. 

And particularly, how might the $3.42 billion which is included 

in the President’s request for the European Reassurance Initiative—how might—which actually almost nearly quadruples the 

prior budget request—how might that be employed to counter Russian aggression? 

Clearly the United States must take a lead role in deterring Russia. I agree with Secretary Carter, who recently said while we do 

not desire conflict of any kind with Russia, we also cannot blind 

ourselves to the actions they appear to choose to pursue. We must 

remain objective and clear-eyed about Russian intent and we must 

be ready to contend with Russia from a position of strength and in 

concert with our allies and partners in the international community should it become necessary. 

Thank you, and I yield back. 

The CHAIRMAN. As I say, we are very grateful to have three highly qualified witnesses to help explore these issues. 

I want to welcome Admiral Jim Stavridis, currently the dean at 

the Fletcher School at Tufts University, but just prior, our commander of NATO and of the European Command; Dr. Evelyn 

Farkas, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia, 

Ukraine, and Eurasia—also some experience, I understand, over on 

the Senate Armed Services Committee, and we will try not to hold 

that too much against you; and Dr. Fiona Hill, director of Center 

on United States and Europe at the Brookings Institute, and also 

the author of, ‘‘Mr. Putin: Operative in the Kremlin,’’ which a lot 

of people talk about. 

Again, thank you all for being here. Without objection, your full 

written statement will be made part of the record. 

Dr. Hill, we will start with you. 

STATEMENT OF DR. FIONA HILL, DIRECTOR, CENTER ON THE 

UNITED STATES AND EUROPE, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION 

Dr. HILL. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman and Ms. Smith. It 

is a great honor to appear here in front of the committee, and I am 

very privileged to be here with such distinguished colleagues. 

I will just touch on a few highlights from my written statement, 

and also offer some supplemental information to that written text. 
3 

Mr. Chairman, as you have outlined and, Ms. Smith, as you have 

also underscored, it is extremely important first of all for us to 

understand the nature of Russian decisionmaking. 

Russia is not the Soviet Union of the Cold War. We no longer 

have a politburo or a communist party or central planning. Russia 

is also not the weak military power of the 1990s and 2000. 

Power in Russia today is very informal and it is rooted in networks around President Vladimir Putin. There are no significant 

checks and balances on Putin’s presidential power, and so Putin 

himself is one aspect of the Russian challenge. 

However, waiting Putin out is not going to be a long-term strategy for us because even if Putin were to disappear tomorrow, the 

likelihood is that he would be replaced by someone from within his 

inner circle. The inner circle of power around Putin is a very tight 

group of the same age range, and people whose professional and 

personal relationships date back decades. Everyone around Putin 

shares the same convictions, so he is not an anomaly. 

I do want to touch upon for a few moments, however, about 

Putin’s particular style of leadership. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for mentioning my book. It is always 

a great delight when somebody does something like that. 

But the point of writing this book was to point out and to underscore that Putin is a professional secret service operative. He is 

very unusual among world leaders at present. 

He has been trained, as he puts it, to work with people and work 

with information. And this means that as president he personalizes 

all of his interactions, both in Russia domestically and in terms of 

foreign policy, just as he would have done as a KGB agent, when 

he targeted, recruited, and dealt with other agents and intelligence 

targets. 

Putin has also been trained to conceal his true identity and intentions at all times. This is what makes him particularly difficult 

to deal with. 

As the Russian head of state, he has a very great tactical advantage. He always keeps his options open so he can adapt to changing 

circumstances and he can continue to pursue his goals. And he 

knows that if no one else knows what he wants or how he is going 

to react, he can stay one step ahead of all of his political opponents, 

including the United States and NATO. 

In terms of his political convictions, however, Putin is a very traditional, conservative Russian politician. And there is a general 

consensus in Russia right now, deeply rooted in the political leap 

since the collapse of the Soviet Union, that the current world order, 

including the European security order, disadvantages Russia. 

Russians see their state as one of just a tiny number of world 

civilizational powers, like China and the United States, and they 

believe that this means that Russia should have special privileges 

internationally, especially in Europe. So this is just to underscore 

that any successor to Putin, no matter who this is, would be just 

as staunch a defender of what they see as Russian interests as 

Vladimir Putin is. 

I also now want to turn to the nature of the current presidency 

under Vladimir Putin. Since the wars in both Ukraine and Syria, 

Putin has transformed his presidency into what we might call a 
4 

wartime presidency. There has been a high command, a centralized 

military, and political command set up inside of Moscow, and all 

critical security and political issues are fed into a small group of 

people around Putin there who are the security team, what we 

might call the hard men of Russian politics. 

To be honest, we don’t really know what happens within that 

group, how deliberations take place, how information is passed to 

Putin, and really who decides on what course of action. But what 

we do know is that most of the people in this group share the same 

operative perspective as Putin does. They come from very similar 

backgrounds and, as I mentioned, they have the same convictions. 

None of these hard men of Russian politics, for the purpose of 

this hearing, we should bear in mind, are actually military men. 

Even the defense minister, Sergey Shoygu, who used to be the minister of emergencies, doesn’t come from the military. The only person in this inner circle who does come from the Russian military 

is Gennady Gerasimov, the chief of the general staff, but he is a 

newcomer to the inner circle of Putin’s power. 

Before today’s wars, the turning point in our relationships with 

Russia was the August 2008 war with Georgia. This was also a 

turning point for Putin and his security team. It was a decisive moment for Russia in understanding their relationship with the West. 

Moscow closely observed the reactions and political responses of 

the United States and NATO and European powers to the war, and 

they took the lack of U.S. and NATO military support for Georgia 

and all of the disagreements about appropriate countermeasures as 

a sign that they could exploit fissures in the future. They also analyzed the performance of their own military to decide on the course 

of Russian military reform. 

The key lesson of the war in Georgia in 2008 for Russia was that 

no other European state was willing to engage in a similar military 

adventure and to take Russia on. Since the Georgia war, the Russian military has become a direct instrument of policy for Putin 

and his inner circle. They seek to figure out how to deploy it 

against opponents in foreign policy for tactical effect. This gives 

Russia a great advantage, and it also makes Moscow think that it 

can take a lot of risks. 

So just to underscore again, Putin and his inner circles think of 

the Russian military as an operational tool. They experiment with 

the direct or threat of direct application of military force, including 

the strategic and tactical nuclear forces, to see what advantage 

they can gain. 

However, I just want to point out before handing over to my colleagues that the Russian military has several shortcomings as an 

operational tool. Russia’s military modernization over the last decade has been beset by planning difficulties. Essentially, the reform 

to the armed services began in 2008, but it wasn’t until 2011 when 

Russia began its rearmament program and the revitalization of its 

defense sector. 

So when the operations were launched in Crimea and then in 

Ukraine in 2014, the Russian military was not quite ready for 

prime time. This is one of the several reasons why the war in the 

Donbass was launched as a covert operation. And it has also been 

the case that the war in Ukraine has been seen by the Russian 
5 

military as more of a proving ground, as an exercise base for the 

future. 

And since the outbreak of the crisis in Ukraine, we have seen the 

Russian military engaged in a series of large-scale and snap exercises. Indeed, there are exercises going on as we meet today. February is, in fact, the traditional exercise season for Russia because 

the annual draft comes up next month in March, which means that 

they will have reduced capacity as the conscript force turns over. 

So Putin’s challenge currently is to figure out how to maintain 

the military momentum that Russia gained in Georgia in 2008, and 

to keep on figuring out how to take the West, the United States, 

and NATO by surprise, as they have done in Ukraine and Syria. 

One of the questions that we have to address today in the hearing is whether Russia may be reaching the limits of its ability to 

apply the military as a direct operational tool in their future conflicts. 

In Ukraine we see an effort to dampen down the conflict. There 

is discussion right now about the future of negotiations with the 

Minsk agreement. 

Part of this is because the Russian military has found itself 

squeezed as a result of international sanctions and the economic 

downturn, and also by the conduct of the campaign itself. The military budget has been squeezed by the reduced prices from energy 

and the revenues in the budget, and also because the state now has 

lower capacity for replacing the armaments and material that have 

been expended in the war in Ukraine. 

The Western sanctions hit Russia in 2014 just as the rearmament program was trying to reach its stride. Russia has been denied access to critical foreign technology as well as further revenues. 

And the intervention in Syria may be more costly than Russia 

basically admits at the moment, because the Syrian government is 

also not paying for the weaponry that it is receiving from the Russian government. So it is not just the cost of Russia’s own military 

expenditures in the war in Syria, but also what it is also expending 

on behalf of the Syrian government. 

So Russia’s dilemma is now one of prioritization—where to allocate its budget and where and how to deploy its relatively limited 

trained manpower. The Russian military is still absorbing the effect of economic decline and the resources that they have. 

And for Russia and the Putin team, being at war in the Middle 

East is actually unfamiliar territory. Russia’s goal in Syria is to 

consolidate Assad’s regime to make sure that something stays in 

place until there is a better arrangement for keeping the Syrian 

state together. 

But intervening in Syria has been a very risky proposition, and 

to achieve the goal of keeping Assad in place, Putin requires large 

numbers of other players, not just the United States and European 

allies, to play along with Moscow at the negotiating table, as well 

as trying to head off operational setbacks, which will be inevitable 

on the ground in the Middle East. At this particular point, it is not 

clear how hard it will be for Russia to keep up the momentum that 

it has in Syria. 
6 

Just to wrap up, with the economic downturn, Putin and his 

inner circle are under considerable pressure to keep on delivering 

foreign policy victories. These victories so far have boosted the Russian public’s ratings of Putin’s political performance. 

We have to bear in mind that with this highly centralized nature 

of Russian power, everything within the current system depends on 

the maintenance of President Putin’s charismatic authority and his 

record as a leader. If the Russian people lose their faith in Putin 

as president, then the political system risks becoming destabilized. 

Putin’s ratings are still very high. They would be very enviable 

in any context, but they are just a few percentage points short of 

90 percent in the most recent polls. 

We have to remember that is also because of his record as president, but it is also in large part because of the siege mentality that 

we have in Russia today. Russians genuinely believe—this is reflected in polls not just at the elite level but at the public level— 

that we are out to get them in the United States and in the West. 

And although the Russian economy and the state budget have 

taken a beating since 2013, it is the wars which have deflected 

Russian public attention away from economic and political demands. Putin and his team have been able to blame all of Russia’s 

woes on the United States and on Western actions and sanctions. 

Putin has shown he has been willing to pay a high economic and 

diplomatic price as he seeks to tip regional balances of power in 

Europe and the Middle East in Moscow’s favor, but the question is 

for how long. Can Putin keep the population mobilized behind his 

presidency if things start to go badly wrong for the military operation in Syria? You can be sure if we are asking this question then 

Vladimir Putin and his team also are. 

So just to conclude, Putin’s overriding strategy and his overriding 

goal right now is to secure—is security for Russia and his system 

and to press forward with his interests. We are talking today about 

deterring Russia, but Putin and his security team are also trying 

to deter us, the United States and NATO, from intervening in any 

way militarily against Russia in any of the conflicts in Ukraine or 

in Syria. 

Putin cannot any more afford the resources for the mass army 

total mobilization approach that the Soviet Union adopted during 

the Cold War to defend itself. So the whole of Russia’s military 

modernization program is being geared towards a combination of 

conventional nuclear and nonconventional nonmilitary means, this 

so-called hybrid means of defense. 

Putin has also, as I mentioned at the beginning, tried to instrumentalize the idea of Russia military force to show us that he intends to use it. This also means that he has to show that he will 

use nuclear weapons under some contingency. 

These are the ultimate deterrent, but they are not much use as 

a deterrent if you don’t believe that anyone is prepared to use 

them. This is why there is so much signaling about nuclear weapons, as I am sure we will hear from Dr. Farkas and Dr. Stavridis. 

So the goal for Putin is also to push away the United States and 

NATO, not to actually exchange in any nuclear or military exchange. This means that it is very tricky for us to both take onboard the nature of Russian threat perceptions and also to devise 
7 

for ourselves coherent strategies and policies for dealing with the 

Russian threat. 

Thank you so much for your attention. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Hill can be found in the Appendix on page 49.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Dr. Farkas. 

STATEMENT OF DR. EVELYN N. FARKAS, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR RUSSIA/UKRAINE/ 

EURASIA 

Dr. FARKAS. Thank you very much, Chairman Thornberry, Congresswoman Davis. 

It is, indeed, an honor to appear before the sister committee of 

the Senate Armed Services Committee, where I served as a professional staff member from 2000 to 2008. It is also an extra honor 

to appear beside my former boss, Admiral Stavridis, whom I hold 

in the highest esteem; and, of course, one of our foremost experts 

on Russia, Dr. Fiona Hill. 

So thank you very much. 

I will get right to the point: Russia poses a geostrategic threat 

to the United States and our interests. Indeed, last week, as we all 

know, Secretary Carter listed it first among the threats faced by 

our country. 

It is unfortunate and in the 21st century to have—in this 21st 

century to have Russia and the United States opposed to one another on fundamentals and most foreign policy issues. But the reality is that the Russian government is pursuing policies that run 

counter to U.S. national security interests and values. 

The Kremlin objectives are clear, and I have about five of them 

that I will run through quickly: first of all, to retain President 

Putin’s position as the leader of the Russian Federation, preserving 

the autocratic political system and mafia-style crony economy that 

together comprise ‘‘Putinism’’; second, to restore Russia’s status as 

a great power; third, to rewrite the international rules and norms 

to prevent intervention in states to protect citizens; fourth, to 

maintain political control of Russia’s geographical periphery—and 

by that I mean Eastern Europe and Central Asia; and, if possible, 

to break NATO, the European Union, and transatlantic unity. 

Now, we have seen what Russia can do with—even with its unfinished military modernization in advancement of these objectives. 

And since we can expect President Putin to be reelected in 2018 

for another 6 years, we can’t wish this problem away. We must use 

all elements of national power—diplomatic, economic, informational, and military—to pressure Russia to reverse course. 

The United States must counter and resist Russia’s actions 

through a combination of deterrence, strengthening our allies and 

partners, and communicating the truth about the Kremlin’s actions 

to the world. For the sake of brevity, I am just going to focus on 

the military recommendations and we can talk about the other 

ones—diplomatic, economic, et cetera—in the Q&A, because obviously for this committee the focus is on the military. 

We must deter Russia from further military action. It is very important. And I, therefore, enthusiastically applaud the President 
8 

and Secretary Carter’s decision to more than quadruple down on 

the European Reassurance Initiative to establish a true deterrent 

to Russian military action against NATO. 

Congress should also urge the Pentagon to provide an aviation 

brigade to support the armored brigade combat team. And I can 

talk more about this, again, in the Q&A. 

On the non-NATO periphery, Congress should continue to support beefing up security assistance to Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova in particular. They need more training; they need help with 

defense transparency and accountability. And we should provide all 

three countries with antitank weapons, which will provide them 

with the potential to deter the larger, more ready Russian forces. 

In Syria we must get our allies engaged on the battlefield and 

provide equipment and other support to the Syrian opposition. If 

we do also succeed in finding economic and other leverage—and I 

mention some of that in the written testimony—this could also 

mitigate the need for more fighting, but more fighting is unavoidable right now. 

The Defense Department should no longer do business with Russia. This means no rockets used by the U.S. defense industry 

should be Russian, and we should establish a new foreign military 

assistance fund to help allies and partners throughout Europe and 

Afghanistan transition from Russian to U.S. military equipment. 

We must be united with our allies and partners worldwide and 

resolute towards Russian bad behavior. We need not enter a new 

Cold War or an across-the-board standoff with Russia. Where the 

Kremlin is open to cooperation and there are mutual interests, of 

course we should work with Moscow. 

But we should know that Russia will not work with us unless the 

Kremlin sees it in their national security interest or we have sufficient leverage to force a change in Putin’s approach. We need leverage to succeed in negotiations. 

If we take the actions described in my testimony—and as I mentioned, I go into more detail in the written—we will raise the price 

to Putin for achieving his international objectives. Russia will be 

forced to reconsider its approach. 

Then perhaps the pent-up and misguided human resources of the 

Russian people can be directed towards a future, and we will have 

successfully managed what is currently the greatest geostrategic 

threat to U.S. national security interests. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Farkas can be found in the Appendix on page 69.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Admiral Stavridis, welcome back. 

STATEMENT OF ADM JAMES G. STAVRIDIS, USN (RET.), DEAN, 

THE FLETCHER SCHOOL, TUFTS UNIVERSITY 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Representative 

Davis. Please also pass my best wishes on to the ranking member. 

It is a pleasure to be back in front of the HASC [House Armed 

Services Committee]. I have testified here many, many times over 

the years, both as U.S. European Command, NATO commander, 

and before that as commander of U.S. Southern Command. 
9 

But today I am here in my personal capacity. I will kind of draw 

on some of my research and work as the dean at the Fletcher 

School at Tufts University, and also some work I am doing at 

Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory. 

I will begin by saying that the top global challenge I see for the 

United States today is, in fact, the European problem. And that 

constraint is made of refugees coming in, economic challenges, but 

a big portion of it is the overhang from Russia. 

And I think that for the United States our best pool of partners 

are going to be the Europeans. And if they are facing this challenge 

from Russia, as you have heard outlined so well by Dr. Hill and 

Dr. Farkas, that has significant implications for the United States. 

There is good news about NATO. Let’s face it, it is 28 nations, 

50 percent of the world’s GDP [gross domestic product], and a significant defense spending, probably $900 billion in total—$600 billion from the United States, $300 billion from Europe. So there is 

a lot of capability in NATO today. 

But the spending is declining. Our European allies are only 

spending about 1.4 percent of their GDP, well under the NATO 

goal of 2 percent. And at the same time, as you have heard outlined particularly by Dr. Farkas but as well by Dr. Hill, we are seeing Russia doubling down on a military approach. 

Russian defense spending is going up, even given the constraints 

of the fall in oil prices and the general global slowdown in the economy. Their defense spending has risen 25 percent in just the last 

2 years. 

Today they have about a million men and women under arms, 

most of them conscripts; 2 million reserves; 270 significant warships; thousands of military aircraft. They remain a very significant military power who continues to improve their forces in very 

specific areas. 

So we need to be very cognizant of the challenges there. And 

when we couple that capability on the part of Russia with demonstrated intent to use it in Georgia, in Moldova, and, of course, 

most dramatically, in Ukraine, followed by the annexation of Crimea, something that, frankly, I could not have imagined happening 

when I was the NATO commander just several years ago. 

So when you couple capability with demonstrated intent to use 

it, and it is positioned alongside our greatest pool of allies, you see 

the significance of this challenge. 

A subset of this I think is the Russian cleverness in approach of 

how they are using military force. Some have called this hybrid 

warfare. It is a mix of special forces; information warfare; cyber, an 

area in which Russia is demonstrating extremely accelerated capability; and this element of surprise, building real ambiguity into 

their maneuvers. Very concerning. 

So when we put all of that together with the snap exercises—and 

as Dr. Hill mentioned, we are going to see this pattern repeated— 

and most recently—and neither of my colleagues have mentioned 

this—we see significant studies being done—I will cite one by 

RAND [Corporation] which just emerged that indicates the Russian 

ability to sweep into the Baltic capitals in really a matter of days— 

60 hours is the number that was used. I participated in a recent 
10 

war game exploring this and I believe this is an accurate assessment. 

So what should we do about it? Well, you are going to have an 

opportunity, of course, to talk to my successor, General Phil Breedlove, in the coming weeks. I am encouraged by the increase in defense spending to focus on Europe. 

As Representative Davis reminded us, this is almost quadrupling. But let’s face it, it is from a relatively low baseline. 

We have withdrawn brigade combat teams over the last few 

years. We should strongly consider returning those to Europe. And 

I think Dr. Farkas has hit the correct mix: Aviation, armor is what 

is going to be needed. 

As I look at the situation overall, I think NATO has the longrange capability, but in the short term we face real challenges from 

Russia. 

So fundamentally, I think we need to continue to maintain a posture of deterrence. We need to use sanctions and continue to 

strengthen those as we look at Russian behavior. 

We need to maintain our own nuclear deterrent. Unfortunately, 

that is going to be part of this equation. 

And I think we need to reassure our allies in Europe, because by 

reassuring them we can hopefully encourage increases in their own 

defense spending, which is their responsibility, to put alongside our 

good work in Russia. 

I will close by echoing something Dr. Farkas said, which is we 

don’t need to stumble backwards into a full-blown Cold War. That 

is in nobody’s interest. But I believe we should cooperate where we 

can in places like Afghanistan, counterpiracy, counternarcotics, 

counterterrorism, but we must confront where we see the need to 

do so. 

I think today when I look at Russian behavior broadly and globally, to include Syria, where they are supporting a reprehensible 

regime, I think we do need to confront. And that includes significant deterrence. And the good work of this committee, its support 

of the Armed Forces of the United States, will enable us to be a 

strong partner in doing so. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

[The prepared statement of Admiral Stavridis can be found in 

the Appendix on page 78.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

There are a lot of issues one would like to pursue. I am going 

to try to limit myself to just a couple that focus on our responsibilities and how—what sort of military capability we ought to help 

build to deal with the situation that the three of you have described. 

Later this week our Strategic Forces Subcommittee has a hearing on our own nuclear deterrent. 

And, Admiral, you just mentioned the importance of that as one 

of the elements. Can you, and perhaps others, describe the role of 

nuclear weapons in Russia’s thinking and in how that translates to 

what we should be focused on? 

Because I think a lot of Americans don’t realize that Russia continues to modernize its nuclear stockpile; it continues to manufac-
11 

ture new weapons with different characteristics. Meanwhile, we are 

sitting here trying to keep the 1980s versions working. 

So the role of nuclear deterrence in this broader context is what 

I am trying to understand. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Sir, as you know, today Russia maintains 

about 1,500 strategic warheads, about 1,000 in reserve, probably 

2,000 to 3,000 tactical nuclear weapons. It is a significant stockpile. 

As you indicate, it is being modernized. 

The United States maintains some level to meet that, and that 

mutual assured destruction philosophy will continue to matter at 

the strategic level. 

What concerns me in Europe, as Russian forces are not as strong 

as they were during the Warsaw Pact days, you see a potential— 

and we are reminded of it fairly frequently by President Putin— 

of the use of nuclear weapons in matching NATO forces. So it is 

the Russians who have indicated a reminder to us. And here I 

think we are really looking at intermediate nuclear range missiles 

as well as the tactical nuclear devices. 

So I think, unfortunately, this is a significant resource constraint, but it is necessary to modernize these in order to meet 

Russian challenges. 

I think Dr. Hill probably has some expertise on this, as well. 

Dr. FARKAS. Well, if I can just add to that, I agree wholeheartedly with the admiral. Obviously it is important for us to maintain 

our nuclear deterrence with Russia. They absolutely rely on their 

strategic nuclear forces to maintain their status, frankly, as a global power. 

But, given their conventional weakness relative to us, they also 

place, unfortunately, too much emphasis on their tactical nuclear 

weapons. And under President Putin, they have actually refined 

their military doctrines such that they permit a nuclear first use 

against a conventional attack. 

So in response to a conventional attack against Russia, if the 

Russian government deems it a threat to the existence of the state, 

which of course is in the eye of the beholder or the leader—if they 

deem it a threat to the existence of the state, even if it is a conventional attack, they can use tactical nuclear weapons to respond. 

And that is a very dangerous development, especially given the fact 

that they have been making these very loose comments, this loose 

nuclear rattling—saber-rattling comments coming from the Kremlin, coming from their ambassador in Copenhagen and elsewhere. 

So I think we are quite worried about that. 

And they also have a doctrine whereby they believe that they can 

deter the United States and other countries from intervening in an 

ongoing military operation, say against a NATO ally or against 

some other country, by escalating in order to then, they say, de-escalate. And the de-escalation would mean if they escalate, the opponent—say the United States, we want to come help our allies—we 

would say, ‘‘Oh, this escalatory attack coming from Russia,’’ whether it is cyber, tactical nuclear, you name it—‘‘that is too much for 

us to respond to. We don’t want to escalate.’’ So we de-escalate, in 

essence, and let the Russians do what they would like to do. 

So it is a bit complicated, and I don’t—I probably went a little 

bit into the weeds of the Russian doctrine. But I think it gives you 
12 

a sense of how dangerous the situation is right now because, unfortunately, the Russians really are relying on their tactical nuclear 

weapons to an extent that we find alarming in the United States. 

And the only other thing I would mention before I turn it over 

to Dr. Hill is, of course, we are also watching very closely the INF 

development, the Intermediate Nuclear Forces and the fact that 

the Russians have violated that treaty. And as I mention in my 

written testimony, I believe that the United States needs to be prepared to deploy, unfortunately, intermediate nuclear weapons back 

to Europe if the Russians do not roll back their program. 

Thank you. 

Dr. HILL. Just to add to this, this is the area that we should be 

paying the most attention to when we are trying to figure out the 

Russian approach. As we have been making clear, they are talking 

about tactical intermediate nuclear weapons here, which is something quite different from the strategic nuclear arsenal that we 

have been trying to address through the New START [Strategic 

Arms Reduction] Treaty, which still seems, actually, to be holding 

in place. 

But it is that whole element of tactical surprise, which is key 

right now to the military momentum that Putin and the team 

around him have been trying to build up since the war in Georgia 

in 2008. The whole point of everything that we have seen has been 

to show us that the military is not just there for show, it is there 

for use. 

As I said in my oral remarks, it is there to be an instrument of 

policy. And it is no good if people just think, you know, you might 

be toying with the idea of using things. People have to believe that 

you will use them under the certain circumstances. 

And this is why all of the contingencies that we have been highlighting here have been put on the table. The team around Putin 

wants us to think that Russia will, in fact, use tactical and intermediate nuclear weapons. 

This is part of the whole violation of the INF Treaty. And we will 

be coming up to the anniversary of the treaty next year, in fact— 

the treaty from 1987. 

In many respect, Putin and the people around him want us to 

go back to that mentality of 30 years ago, of believing that the only 

way to engage with Russia directly is in these military contexts. 

They want to be taken seriously and to be seen as a credible threat 

by us and by NATO. And again, credibility depends on making it 

very clear that this is not an idle threat. 

One of the biggest problems that the Russians perceived in their 

engagements with the United States prior to the war in Georgia in 

2008 was that we did not take any of their threats seriously. When 

they established a red line about the expansion of NATO we didn’t 

believe them. 

In fact, in some meetings that some of us were in in the past, 

we heard senior U.S. officials say things like, ‘‘Well, the Russians 

will shout and they will stomp their feet but they won’t do anything,’’ because they haven’t in the past. This is in meetings that 

some of us in previous capacities took part in. 

The point was that they did not have the capacity to take military action in the past under Yeltsin and, frankly, under Gorba-
13 

chev in the late period of the Soviet Union, when the state was 

very much weakened. Putin wants to show that now the Russian 

military has that capacity. 

We didn’t get the message in 2008. Now we are getting the message. 

So the whole point of this is not to engage in a nuclear exchange, 

but just to make sure that we know that Russia means business. 

So we have got to actually have a different debate with Russia 

now about deterrence. We have got to make it very clear to people 

like Putin and those around him, who are not military people—engaged in the past in conventional discussions, if one can call it 

that, of deterrence; who are not members of the politburo of the old 

Soviet military who understood how that kind of deterrence works, 

that this is actually unacceptable and that just even toying with 

the idea of using tactical nukes in any kind of battlefield scenario 

will result in the most dire circumstances. 

So it is a very different debate that we need to be having with 

Russia than we have had before. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you all. I think it is a very important 

issue about the lessons others draw from our actions or inactions 

that applies in all sorts of places. 

At some point I want to explore the hybrid warfare and what 

that means for own capabilities. In the interest of time, I will yield 

to the—Mrs. Davis for any questions. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And actually, that is probably an area that I wanted to go into 

as well, and just having you talk more about Russia’s use of hybrid 

warfare, unconventional, more clever, all the—what you had mentioned earlier. And is it true? I think part of it is to exert influence 

and go as far as they can without triggering Article 5. 

So, then, where are we? And could you speak to that? 

And obviously in terms of NATO and in terms of the European 

Alliance it is difficult to actually draw a line in this context, but 

take us a step further with it because the game has obviously 

changed, as you said, that there is a real difference in their capacity now, and yet we don’t want to be drawn into something for the 

sake of being drawn into something to respond to their test. So—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Let me begin, if I could, with Article 5, since 

you brought it up. This is the fifth article of the NATO Treaty and 

it says an attack on one shall be regarded as an attack on all. It 

is kind of foundational to NATO. 

Article 6 of the treaty actually goes on to define an attack. It is 

a far less well-known article. It is really worth getting out and 

reading; it is only two sentences long, but it defines an attack as 

air, sea, and land upon the forces or citizens of a NATO state. 

So that would have been really clear as a definition in the 1950s, 

when the treaty was being constructed, implemented, and developed. Today, with particularly cyber, it becomes ambiguous. 

So when is a cyber event a cyberattack? Is it when your accounts 

are surveilled? Is it when your data is manipulated? Is it when the 

data is destroyed? Is it when you have a kinetic outcome—in other 

words a cyberattack that destroys your ability to land aircraft, to 

move trains? When is a cyberattack occurring? 
14 

Russia sees this ambiguity as an element in hybrid warfare, and 

I think that is a good starting place for NATO is to think about 

what is an attack in a Article 5, Article 6 context? Because cyber 

will be big part of hybrid warfare. 

A second element will be unmarked soldiers, so-called little green 

men, typically moving across borders. The war game I just completed with the Center for New American Studies here explored 

that quite fully, and it is kind of special forces but it includes this 

element of really taking off your military badges so that in the information campaign alongside it, as a state you can deny that these 

are your soldiers. You can say, ‘‘These are volunteers. These are 

former Chechen veterans who are on their vacation going into a nation.’’ You build more ambiguity in the little green men. 

Alongside the cyber and the little green men comes the information campaign, which I just mentioned. You deny everything. You 

say, ‘‘This is not state activity.’’ We have seen this again and again, 

particularly in Ukraine in the Donbass region. 

So these kind of elements strung together present a real challenge in the NATO context exactly as you bring up, Representative 

Davis—— 

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS [continuing]. Because it is difficult to make 

the call that we are under attack. And this potentially could be 

used against Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. 

A final factor I will mention is the presence of Russian-speaking 

minorities and a Russian doctrine that says: We will defend Russians wherever they are; and, by the way, we will define what a 

Russian is. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Admiral, I just wonder whether you felt that NATO 

would likely be much more definite about where these tests would 

be responded to. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I think prior to Ukraine I think I would have 

been more concerned. I think today, because of the way the Russians have, if you will, revealed their hand so dramatically in 

Ukraine and Crimea, I think the sensors are up in NATO. People 

are really watching this. 

And again, in the war game, which had a lot of European colleagues involved, we moved very quickly to respond to this. Dr. 

Farkas was at that war game as well and might like to address it. 

Dr. FARKAS. Thank you very much, Admiral. 

And thank you, Congresswoman. 

I think the only thing I would add—I absolutely agree that the 

problem with the unconventional approach is the surprise and the 

ambiguity of what is an attack. I think the approach that we have 

taken with our allies, in particular in the NATO context but also 

with the non-NATO periphery countries, is to try to strengthen 

their capacity. That is why this ERI [European Reassurance Initiative] money is actually really important because some of that goes 

to the special operations training that we are doing with Baltic 

countries, again with Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, all those periphery countries in NATO as well as the ones outside. 

If we strengthen their ability to respond, obviously that will 

lower the likelihood that we will have to, as you said, respond to 

a Russian attack—an unconventional attack ourselves through 
15 

NATO, that local forces can take care of it. And when I say ‘‘local 

forces’’ I don’t actually mean necessarily the military forces, although our SOF [special operations forces] folks are in there working with the military. We also need to look at the local police, the 

law enforcement authorities, national guard. 

So part of the hybrid means that, unfortunately, as you know, it 

is hard for us because of our authorities. We need to be working 

closely with our State Department colleagues and mixing funding, 

if you will, to conduct the training that is required. 

So I think strengthening the allies is really important, and then 

another thing that I mentioned and the admiral mentioned, the information campaign. We have seen now that the State Department 

is setting up this new cell to address the messaging with regard 

to the counterterrorism effort that we are conducting with our allies and the need to get information out to counter the radical 

Islamist ideology. Well, I would argue that we need a similar cell 

like that to counter the Russian propaganda. 

So I will leave it at that and turn it over to Dr. Hill. 

Dr. HILL. I will pick up on what Dr. Farkas just said about the 

State Department cell. And I have to say, I am afraid, that I don’t 

think that that will actually do the business that we need to be 

done. 

I think, as we are all outlining here, that this is a very sophisticated approach on the part of the Russian government, and we 

have to be very cognizant of how broad-ranging that is. And it 

again gets back to the very fact that Putin and the team around 

him—and again, we have to just bear in mind that it is not just 

Putin, it is a larger group of people—all have the same outlook and 

perspective as operatives. 

This is an unusual group of people that we are dealing with as 

world leaders and the inner circle. It is very hard to find some 

counterpart who is similar to this elsewhere. 

And then again, they are not military people. It is the coin of the 

careers has been dealing in a clandestine fashion, and disassembling and dealing with information and misinformation, and, you 

know, as Putin has always put it, working with people to manipulate situations. So they all think along these lines. 

It is not some character flaw. It is what they have been trained 

to do. 

And it is incredibly all-encompassing. When Putin thinks of an 

operation he doesn’t just think about the military aspects of this. 

As Admiral Stavridis said, it is all aspects of cyber and it is political. 

The State Department, frankly, will be run around in circles if 

that is kind of the focal point of what we do, and we don’t have 

the capacity or the resources for this. 

Russia is engaged in the information space in creating a moral 

equivalency with the United States and with our allies at all different levels. You will find from public opinion polls across Europe 

as well as in Russia itself that everyone believes that we are engaged in exactly the same activities. 

Hybrid warfare is extraordinarily old. The Tsarist regime used to 

engage in hybrid warfare. All the discussions of the old game between the British Empire and the Russian Empire back in the 19th 
16 

century—these were all aspects of hybrid warfare, of clandestine 

operatives, you know, running around trying to subvert regional 

leaders from the Indian Empire onwards. 

So everyone believes that we have been engaging in this for some 

time. And in fact, what is different now is that the Russians have 

said that they are going to engage the United States and its allies 

in the same kind of tactics that they believe we have been doing. 

And I have to say that they firmly believe that we have been engaging in clandestine operations in a continuous fashion since the 

war in Afghanistan onwards. They don’t believe that we stepped 

down at all at the end of the Cold War in terms of the kinds of 

operations that we have been doing. And in fact, they took the operations that we have launched in counterterrorism as just an affirmation that we have never really changed our operational perspective either. 

And also, with having Edward Snowden sitting in Moscow, it is 

not just for the propaganda value. They believe very firmly that we 

are engaged in exactly the same tactics that we are. 

Putin’s viewpoint is that the United States lies; it spies on everybody; it engages in these kinds of activities. I am a spy; of course 

I engage in these activities, and I don’t lie. 

And so the whole point of the information war is to show that 

Russia and the United States are very similar and to kind of discredit her is also in the environment. So we actually have to 

counter that on multiple levels. It is an all-encompassing political 

exercise. 

And it also requires other leaders, our allies in the European 

capitals, media, the think tank world that I belong to, and everyone else to be very cognizant of what we are dealing with. We all 

have to do our homework, both inside and outside government, in 

figuring out how to contend with this. 

Dr. FARKAS. If I could, Mr. Chairman and Madam Congresswoman, just to counter a little bit on the point about the State Department can’t actually compete with Russia. That is true, but I 

think what I am proposing is a very important component of the 

overall approach towards Russia, which obviously in the U.S. context has to include private media, public-private ventures, et cetera. 

But I think what has been missing—and it was very frustrating 

for me when I was in the government—was an ability to share information with our allies, with our partners, and with the world 

writ large, based on our excellent intelligence sources. 

We are not very good at declassifying and reclassifying information that is not propaganda, showing pictures of what the Russians 

are doing. We did it a couple of times, and interestingly, the Open 

Skies Treaty was actually useful because, unlike satellites, that is 

unclassified data that is gleaned as a result of aircrafts that take 

pictures for the purposes of our treaty requirements. 

But in any event, I think that we can do more just by getting 

some information out. That is the minimum that the State Department could do and should do, together with the intelligence community. But it should also be a push, not a pull—not leaders like 

yourselves or executive branch members saying, ‘‘Declassify that,’’ 

but actually the intelligence community looking with the State De-
17 

partment, ‘‘What should we declassify?’’ not waiting for somebody 

to tell them to do it. 

So that is the only thing I wanted to point out there, that it is 

important that we share that information. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you all. 

We are now going to have to operate under the 5-minute rule to 

try to get to everybody, and I will yield to the distinguished gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Wilson. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you for being here today. 

And I have a particular interest in what you are saying and 

doing because in September 1990 I visited as a tourist to Moscow. 

I was so hopeful, and I have studied Russian history and Russian 

culture. I really appreciate their contributions to the world. 

But it was startling in 1990. It was like stepping back into 1917 

and it was the end of a failed socialist era of empty stores, empty 

streets. But I was just so hopeful seeing the pre-1917 architecture. 

It was just awesome—and then the talented people. 

But it has just been—what I was hoping for was a partnership 

between the people of Russia, Europe, the United States, for the 

betterment of the Russian people. But sadly, on subsequent visits 

across the country with my family, we saw the beginning of a freemarket society, a modern society. But it has evolved now, sadly, as 

indicated, into an autocratic political system, a crony capitalist system of some type benefiting the elite. 

I am still hopeful for the country and the Russian people, but 

what challenges we and they have. 

With that in mind, I have a question for Dr. Hill and Dr. Farkas. 

And actually, Dr. Hill, you substantially already answered the 

question. 

But let me go to Dr. Farkas, from your point of view, which is 

really interesting. 

But as chairman of the Emerging Threats and Capabilities Subcommittee, Russia’s ongoing information propaganda operation is of 

great concern. And I share the interest of the chairman. What do 

you believe DOD [Department of Defense] should do to better compete in a new sphere of hybrid warfare, and how do we counter 

Russia’s information propaganda operations? 

Dr. FARKAS. Thank you very much, Congressman Wilson. 

I think I have laid out some of the components already, so with 

regard to dealing with the hybrid, I think all of the special operations training that is ongoing. And there is also some assistance 

that is being provided to embassies on the strategic communications front, so helping ministries of defense communicate better 

within their society what they are doing. And I am specifically 

thinking about Ukraine, where we have been pretty active, helping 

our ambassador work with the Ukrainians. So we need to do more 

of that. 

I don’t think, first and foremost, though, the strategic communication is the Department of Defense’s responsibility, so I really 

do think that the State Department should take the lead on that 

and DOD should be in support. 

But the special operations forces have a special niche capability 

with their so-called NIST [National Intelligence Support Team] 
18 

teams, these informational teams. They can help embassies work 

with foreign governments. 

The other thing, of course, is just in training them to be able to 

see when things are happening and changing on the ground. And 

there is an intel component there, so obviously the Department of 

Defense’s intel capabilities need to be brought to bear on the situation. 

So I think those are the main components, aside from the ones 

that I already mentioned. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Can I just add to that mix—I think that is 

a good shopping list, but it is also cyber, as I hope I indicated. I 

think this is an area Russia is really moving rapidly, along with 

other nations around the world, and I think the ability to compete 

in that space is something we need to emphasize as well. 

Thanks. 

Dr. HILL. Let me just add one small point, that there is a very 

important role that our armed services can still keep playing 

through professional-level exchanges with Russia. Although we 

should not be doing any of the things that Dr. Farkas warned us 

against in terms of some of the weaponry issues and some of the 

joint ventures that we have engaged in previously, those professional-level contacts are still of extraordinary importance, especially for strategic communications—it is messaging. 

Because just as you said at the very beginning, we do not believe 

that Russia is any kind of implacable foe or enemy. What we have 

a problem with is the particular conduct and posture of the current 

Russian government and the way that they want to seek to use the 

military as a tool in their foreign policy. 

We have to make it very clear that there is still a different possibility ahead of us for a different kind of relationship, as we have 

already said, on many issues where we have mutual interest. And 

those professional-level contacts are very important in emphasizing 

that. 

There is a great deal of respect for the U.S. armed services 

among the Russian military, and we should capitalize upon that 

when we communicate with them. 

Mr. WILSON. And I have actually seen the benefit of people-topeople, too. In my community of central South Carolina we have 

a very thriving assimilating Russian-American population who 

are—we have many visitors coming from Russia, and hopefully 

they see the positive society we are. 

Thank you. My time is up. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Courtney. 

Mr. COURTNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you, to the witnesses, for your testimony today. 

Admiral Stavridis, in your written statement you mention that 

Russian submarine activity has risen to a level not seen since the 

Cold War days. Could you elaborate on that? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Sure. If you look back at the Cold War, we 

saw, if you will, ‘‘The Hunt for Red October.’’ We saw vast armadas 

of undersea forces playing cat-and-mouse games throughout the 

Arctic, through the Mediterranean, through the Greenland-IcelandU.K. gap in particular, as well as peripheral kinds of encounters, 

both under the ice and at the very bottom of the pole, as well. 
19 

So that diminished significantly as we came out of the Cold War. 

Now I would say we are back up to a level of activity that I would 

say is probably 70 to 80 percent of what we saw during Cold War 

times, and that implies more patrols coming closer to the United 

States, more probing kinds of activities. 

As you are well aware, this gets into highly classified information 

quite rapidly, but I think I will close there and say that a closedsession briefing on this might be of great interest to the members. 

Mr. COURTNEY. Thank you. And just again, in your testimony 

you talked about, again, the change that is happening in the landscape there in terms of military buildup, and that—I think your 

term is, ‘‘Unfortunately, we are not currently configured to detect 

and respond to these types of moves in a robust and immediate 

military fashion.’’ 

Again, you talked about ground troops and air assets that need 

to be boosted. Can you talk a little bit about naval response? Again, 

on sea power, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about the 

pivot to Asia-Pacific, and we have had some of those briefings that 

you mentioned earlier. But I guess could you talk about that configuration—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I can. In terms of the Russian fleet, as I 

mentioned in my opening remarks, it is not a huge fleet; it is 270- 

ish kind of ships. But its submarine force in particular is extremely 

high-tech and extremely capable and is a real instrument that is 

being used most aggressively at this point. 

If we look at the building programs, what is on the waves and 

what the Russians communicate to us about what they are going 

to build, they are going to increase the conventional surface force 

as well quite significantly. 

So we are seeing robust activity, particularly in the subsurface 

venue. And it is less about the platform and more about the uses 

to which they are being put, which again are much more aggressive 

than we have seen really in a decade. 

Did you want to add something, Evelyn? 

Mr. COURTNEY. We don’t have a lot of time here, and I just—so 

the lay-down that we, you know, have been looking at for the last 

10 years in terms of shifting assets to Guam and other parts, I 

guess that is the question I was sort of—I mean—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Got you. Sir, I would say the Pacific pivot 

made some sense 2 to 3 years ago. I think at this point we ought 

to be reassessing that as a theory, recognizing that the United 

States is a global power and we have global interests, of course. 

But as I look at the strategic landscape of the moment, I would 

say it is a good time to be reassessing whether we want to shift 

a significant portion of the fleet into the Pacific. 

Mr. COURTNEY. And lastly, the Russians have about 42 icebreakers shored up in the Arctic, and as Mr. Garamendi has been 

working hard on the Coast Guard Subcommittee, you know, we are 

definitely struggling to get up to speed. I was wondering if you 

could just sort of comment on—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I can. 

Mr. COURTNEY [continuing]. On that issue. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. The Russians, as you know, are extremely 

robust in the Arctic. They have a huge number of icebreakers. We 
20 

have a total of one operational icebreaker. China has many more 

than we do. 

This is something that needs to be corrected. I would invite the 

committee to read into the record the article I just wrote with General Schwartz about a solution for icebreakers. There is no question 

that the high North is going to be an area in which we need to be 

much better, and icebreakers have to be part of that. 

Mr. COURTNEY [continuing]. Dr. Farkas, I have 40 seconds left. 

I don’t know if you want to jump in on any of these issues. 

Dr. FARKAS. I think really just to say that the submarine force 

is an area that the Russians have emphasized in their modernization, as opposed to the surface fleet. Most of their modernization 

is very focused. 

And the missiles are also something that—the missile capability 

they have improved. And then, as the admiral mentioned, it is 

what they could do. So we need to have good situational awareness, 

and I think, again, the submarine fleet. 

The only other thing I would add is that the Russian fleet, of 

course, is also in the Pacific and our Pacific forces are watching 

them closely there, as well. 

Dr. HILL. And just one point, because China came up, that Russia is not just thinking about the United States as a long-term 

threat in the Arctic. For Russia, the Arctic and the Asia-Pacific theaters—maritime theaters—are connected, and they are literally 

connected physically. 

And Russia is worried about Chinese, Korean, and other incursions as the ice melts in the Arctic and shipping opens. Because for 

Russia this is about their commercial fleet, not just about their 

military posture in the Arctic. 

So I think we have to have a very broad-ranging discussion of 

the Arctic, not just from our own perspective. 

The CHAIRMAN [continuing]. Thank you. 

Mr. Franks. 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you all for being here. 

Admiral Stavridis, especially grateful to you for your lifelong 

service to freedom, and appreciate you being here. 

With that, I would like to direct my first question to you, and 

that is, how important do you think it is for U.S. national security 

concerns to cooperate to—between the U.S. government, the United 

States Congress, and the Ukrainian National Security and Defense 

Council? That is sort of a broad question, I know, but—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. It is. I have spoken and thought a great deal 

about this. 

I, for one, am a strong supporter of Ukraine. I think it is an important nation; it is a big nation; and it is at play in terms of either 

falling into a Russian orbit—that is obviously the desire of President Putin—or fulfilling an opportunity for a transatlantic relationship, a future grounded in the European Union in economics with 

Europe. It is highly to the interest of the United States that that 

competition move Ukraine in a direction of the West. 

Mr. FRANKS. Yes. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. How can we do that the best? Through the 

mechanisms as you are describing, through financial support, and, 
21 

I would argue, through carefully crafted military support to the 

Ukrainian military, which I think is not destabilizing but would in 

fact have a deterrent effect on Russia. 

Mr. FRANKS. Yes. Well, couldn’t agree with you more. 

Let me shift gears in a completely different subject. 

I was a little—‘‘discomfited’’ I suppose is an understatement—at 

some of the comments of Russian General Slipchenko here some 

time back and his cooperation with Iran, and their electromagnetic 

pulse [EMP] ambitions and their, you know, their military doctrine 

passive defense on how they would be able to resist countries such 

as ours. And they mentioned electromagnetic pulse there 22 different times. 

What is your own understanding of Russia’s EMP offensive capability, and what implications does that have for us, both directly 

and in their cooperation with Iran? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Again, without broaching into classified information, I will confine myself to say Russia has a significant 

EMP, electromagnetic pulse, capability. It could be devastating in 

the United States. It is a mechanism wherein a nuclear blast at the 

right level can knock out an enormous amount of our cyber capability. Some have referred to this as the event that causes the 

cyber Pearl Harbor. 

This is a significant challenge for us. The fact that Russia would 

even have conversations about that with Iran is very disconcerting 

because this is the way a rogue nation could use only one or two 

nuclear weapons to impact dramatically a large society like the 

United States. 

I will close on Russia and Iran by pointing out that today we see 

the fulfilment of the sale of the S–300 anti-air warfare system, 

highly prized by the Iranians. I think we, unfortunately, will see 

nothing but further cooperation between Russia and Iran in a variety of spheres. 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, I obviously am glad you are on our side, and 

I hope your voice is carried far and wide. 

If I could shift gears, Dr. Farkas and Dr. Hill, I will point this 

to both of you, related to how increasing our assistance to European allies will affect Russia’s behavior in Syria. You know, there 

are a lot of folks at this point that have thought, ‘‘Well, with Assad 

being in power there is no real chance of us dealing with anything 

of consequence there.’’ 

But will Putin double down or will he begin to find his resources 

growing thin? What impact can we still have there, and especially 

with Russia’s obvious support for the Syrian regime? 

Dr. HILL. Yes, just quickly on this, because it links into Admiral 

Stavridis’ response to you about Iran. Russia has not intervened in 

Syria just because of us. Russia sees the order in the Middle East 

as completely broken down now, the order established since Suez 

in 1956, and it wants to make sure that it has some say there because it is a whole set of interests, including relationships with 

Iran, with Egypt, with Israel, and many of the other players that 

we also have close relationship with. 

It also has a lot of tensions with countries like Saudi Arabia, 

Qatar, and now, of course, with Turkey, as a result of the incident 

back in last November. 
22 

So Russia actually has a very tall order on its hands here with 

the intervention. It actually needs the United States to help it get 

out of what could potentially be a quagmire on the military side 

into some kind of negotiation. 

Its starting point is obviously to keep Assad in place in some 

semblance of the Syrian state, which is what it is pushing us towards right now. But Russia seeks a balance of power in the Middle East that will protect its interests, as well. 

So we do actually still have some leverage there as long as we 

can remember that it is not all about us in the case of Syria. 

Mr. FRANKS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank all of you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Mr. Moulton. 

Mr. MOULTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you all for your wisdom and your service. 

Under the leadership of the chairman I was able to visit Ukraine 

and Eastern Europe a few months ago and—last year—and I was 

struck by the enthusiasm that the Eastern European countries 

shared at having us participate in drills. We had tank drills going 

on; we were very enthusiastically positioning aircraft; the military 

talked excitedly about extending our plans to counter a Russian invasion further east with our new NATO allies. 

And to be perfectly honest, I was shocked at how little we were 

doing to counter the Russian hybrid warfare threat. And it reminded me of what it must have been like to see France releasing 

excited press releases about their reinforcement to the Maginot 

Line when Germany is building tanks. 

And so when you look at the ERI and where we are putting our 

resources, because we obviously, as we all know, live in a resourceconstrained environment, I just find it hard to believe that we are 

making smart strategic decisions when we are supporting all these 

tank drills at the necessary expense of expansions in our cyber 

warfare, and other hybrid warfare, and special operations, and 

other things like that. 

So I was wondering if you could comment on that a bit and speak 

specifically not just to the need to address hybrid warfare, but at 

the right balance we need to strike with our resources. 

Dr. FARKAS. If I could just quickly on this, I think part of what 

is important to bear in mind is that the base budget also addresses 

the hybrid threat. So the special operations community—and I give 

General Votel a lot of credit because he turned around very quickly 

and came up with a plan to address Russia. 

And I actually suggest that the committee invite him—well, now 

his successor—to brief you on their plans to address the Russia 

threat, because they understood very quickly what was going on in 

the aftermath of Crimea and, I would say, within the Department 

responded very—relatively rapidly, for the Department. So there is 

money in their base budget, and in the U.S. European Command 

they have turned around and they are already doing a lot of training. So they have been doing training in other countries, not just 

in Ukraine. 

In Ukraine, as you noted, they are just starting. 

Mr. MOULTON. Right. 
23 

Dr. FARKAS. But they actually have a jump ahead. They have already been working in the Baltics and Georgia and other places. 

So I think the base budget has some money there. 

It is not necessarily a question of money, because what the special operations forces do in terms of building that resiliency internally doesn’t cost as much, frankly, as the importance exercises 

that ERI funds for us to demonstrate to the Russians that we will 

be ready, that we will respond as a unified alliance if they take 

military action towards us. 

So I think it is hard to compare the dollars because you just need 

more dollars to do the conventional stuff, whereas the unconventional stuff generally doesn’t cost as much. 

Mr. MOULTON. Right. But if Russia is beating us on the unconventional side then does it really matter whether we are training 

three tank battalions or five? Is that really an effective deterrent? 

Dr. Hill, perhaps you could comment on that. 

Dr. HILL. It is really about the way that we approach this issue. 

I mean, one of the reasons that we see that Russia has been beating us in this regard is because they have had a very strong sense 

of purpose and focus. 

We have made a lot of mistakes in kind of miscalculating Russia’s intent, and that is kind of something that has now come to 

bite us, frankly, since the war in Georgia. We saw that as a oneoff. We were taken by surprise by Crimea. 

We didn’t foresee what they were going to do in Syria, not because we didn’t see them moving material and equipment in Syria; 

it is because we weren’t able to anticipate what they might be 

doing. 

As we have heard, however, that our sensors are up now in 

NATO and elsewhere. And I think what we have to do overall is 

posture ourselves in terms of analysis, as well. It is not just an 

issue of intelligence and collecting intelligence; it is how we think 

about this issue. So that is going to be a key element. 

And I have to say that DIA [Defense Intelligence Agency] has 

been gutted over the last several years, in terms of its work on 

Russia, because people have been redeployed from what would 

seem is not a priority area—— 

Mr. MOULTON. Right. 

Dr. HILL [continuing]. Onto other areas—the war on terrorism 

and elsewhere, which of course have been important. So we have 

to basically put resources behind our analysis again. 

Mr. MOULTON. So quickly, Dr. Hill and Dr. Farkas, would you 

agree with Admiral Stavridis’ admonishment that we should reexamine the pivot to Asia and to the Pacific? 

Dr. HILL. We definitely need a more holistic approach. When 

Putin gets up every day he thinks about the huge Russian landmass. 

He is not the head of a second-rate regional power; he is the 

head of a multiregional power. And we have to look at Russia in 

that context and our own global posture, as the admiral said. 

Mr. MOULTON. And, Dr. Farkas, would you agree with that? 

Dr. FARKAS. I would just say that we need to bear in mind now 

that Russia is the immediate threat. And so that probably does 

have some implications for the pivot. 
24 

Mr. MOULTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Admiral, I just gotta—what is your answer to Mr. Moulton’s 

question about this conventional versus hybrid? There are some 

people who believe that ERI will make our allies feel better but it 

is not going to have any effect at all on Putin. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I lean toward solutions that are cyber, special forces, unmanned vehicles. I think what is in the cusp between 

the two is a battlefield capability that is anti-armor, anti-tank. 

That kind of lethal, distributed force I think has a role to play 

that kind of falls in between the two categories. But I think a battalion, armor, heavy tanks I think is unlikely to be the solution 

there. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Ms. Stefanik. 

Ms. STEFANIK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you, to the witnesses, for your thoughtful testimony. 

You testified earlier that despite the severe economic challenges 

that Russia faces, they have increased their defense spending by 25 

percent in the last 2 years. Meanwhile, the U.S. has had continued 

discussions about defense sequestration, which unfortunately includes significant reductions in Army end strength. 

I want to look forward. As we are approaching a transition of administrations, what policy changes in our defense strategy do you 

think are needed to adequately counter Russia’s recent changes in 

its national security strategy? I am particularly interested in Army 

end strength, in cyber, and also—you noted this before—reassessing the so-called pivot to Asia. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I will start off. I am sure my colleagues have 

something to add. 

You mentioned a couple of things. I am a supporter of the recent 

Army future commission that has just come out, headed by my 

former colleague and very good friend, General Carter Ham. I 

think that is spot on and lays out the numbers, I think, appropriately. In very round numbers, I think an Army that is about a 

million is what is needed between Active, Reserve, and Guard. 

In terms of cyber, I think it is time to add significant capability 

and, in fact, to examine the question of whether or not the nation 

needs a cyber force. We have an Army, a Navy, an Air Force, a 

Coast Guard, a Marine Corps, et cetera. I think it is high time to 

think about a cyber force—small, a few thousand, but to grow. 

The analog would be the Air Force of 100 years ago, which didn’t 

exist. But we gradually came to understand we needed one. I think 

that is a conversation that we need to be having now. 

I do think we will continue to see an emphasis on maritime and 

air activity globally. 

And in terms of the pivot, I want to make sure we are all on the 

same sheet of music here in that the world is big and global and 

complicated; there is no simple answer of, gee, we should pivot to 

Asia or not. We have global responsibilities. 

But what we have seen of late in Europe and in the Levant and 

the near Middle East causes me to think we ought to be reexamining a huge shift of forces to the Pacific. 

Thanks. 
25 

Ms. STEFANIK. Dr. Farkas. 

Dr. FARKAS. Well, I have gotten to where I am today generally 

by agreeing with Admiral Stavridis, so I agree with everything that 

he said. 

And the only other thing I would point out in addition to my earlier comment about the base budget funding also a lot of these activities, the Deputy Secretary of Defense has this third offset and 

there is a slice of money that he is requesting also in this budget— 

in this upcoming—in this new budget request, which addresses 

critical capabilities that we need to develop so that we can stay 

ahead of our competitors, Russia and China specifically. 

And I would mention in that context that they are looking at— 

and I probably can’t get into it too much more, but at cyber capabilities, cyber teams, and things like that. So there are other elements of the budget that do address the unconventional threat, as 

well. 

Ms. STEFANIK. Dr. Hill. 

Dr. HILL. I think what we have to bear in mind, based on all the 

things that we have been talking about today, that whatever we do, 

we have to make sure that we have flexibility and adaptability in 

any of the mechanisms. Part of our problem is we tend to fixate 

on big budgets and big issues of doctrine, and often it makes it very 

difficult, then, for us to change course as circumstances change. 

I mean, this is the problem of being fixated on something like the 

pivot to Asia or, frankly, on, you know, thinking solely about the 

war on terrorism, or thinking of things in terms of old challenges. 

Russia may be the current and present threat, and Russia has 

actually never really changed its posture toward the United States. 

Instead of dealing with many of the other threats that also face 

Russia, frankly, the United States is not—let’s be frank about it— 

Russia’s main threat over the longer term. 

All the transnational threats that we are worried about Russia 

is, too. So we have to actually move in a direction in which we 

change that calculus for Russia also, so that they change their 

minds about thinking of us as a threat. That requires some pretty 

astute diplomacy, including by the Pentagon, not just by the State 

Department and our other interactions. 

And we have to make sure that we don’t get ourselves fixated on 

just the nature of the threat as it is. So we need as many flexible 

mechanisms as possible, and we need to really think to ourselves 

about how we adapt, not pivot one way or the other. 

So we have to be very careful that whatever we do, as I think 

Admiral Stavridis and Dr. Farkas are saying, not to then fixate on 

Russia, the Middle East, and the Levant as well, so to have a holistic approach and figure out how everything will fit together. 

Ms. STEFANIK. Thank you. 

My time is about to expire. I yield back. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Mr. Takai. 

Mr. TAKAI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Farkas, you have stated publicly that your support for defensive legal assistance in the Ukraine was not supported within the 

Department of Defense. How should the committee assess the Department’s request to increase resources to deter Russia? Can you 
26 

discuss the divergent views with the Department and the administration on U.S. policy towards Russia? 

Dr. FARKAS. Thank you, Congressman, for your question. 

I think, as I mentioned in my written testimony and in my oral 

statement, that the countries around Russia’s periphery, they have 

requested lethal defensive equipment, specifically anti-tank weapons, the Javelin system. And thus far, the administration has not 

seen the need to provide this equipment to those countries, but I 

believe that it would be an important potential deterrent to Russia. 

And again, because it is defensive in nature I don’t believe that it 

would cause some kind of escalation dynamic that would be uncontrollable and lead to the United States getting drawn into the conflict in Ukraine. 

So I do believe strongly that we should make that system available to those countries. 

As far as the discussion about the Russia threat, I think you are 

hearing a chorus of voices, starting with, as I mentioned earlier, 

Secretary Carter, talking about the Russia threat, as well as Deputy Secretary Work, who has really rolled up his sleeves and has 

been actively pushing items in the budget for a while now to address the Russia threat. 

So I think you are hearing one strong voice coming out of the Department of the Defense and the administration writ large, but it 

is not the voice that matters. And in fact, sometimes if you talk too 

loudly you can—your strategy can backfire. It is more important 

what we do. 

And that is why I talked about across the board we don’t need 

to get into a confrontational dynamic with Russia. And indeed, 

there are places where we need to talk to Russia. And I don’t want 

to veer too far off your question topic, but on this strategic and 

some of the more dangerous elements of our relationship we actually have to reengage in the discussion. 

Mr. TAKAI. Okay. So, Dr. Farkas again, what lessons has the conflict in Ukraine taught us about our own shortfalls, and how would 

you—how would providing Ukraine with defensive legal assistance—you mentioned the Javelin—change the playing field on the 

ground in eastern Ukraine? 

Dr. FARKAS. Well I think, Congressman, we covered a lot of the 

ways that we have learned. You know, we were quite shocked, first 

of all on the diplomatic front, that the Russian government took 

the fact that the Ukraine was interested in joining the European 

Union as such an assault on their foreign policy and that they reacted the way that they did, that they took the opportunity of— 

well, of the failed arrangement, where the Yanukovych, the president—the former president of Ukraine fled, and then—and they 

took that opportunity to go in and seize Crimea. 

I think the thing that hasn’t been mentioned, or maybe not mentioned sufficiently, is intelligence. And again, I think I want to 

elaborate a little bit on what Dr. Hill said. 

I found it shocking in the administration—I mean, it wasn’t 

shocking but it was disappointing. We have actually a lot of very 

good intelligence on Russia, but we do not have sufficient analysts; 

we do not have sufficient resources to get that information proc-
27 

essed and get it out to the policymakers fast enough. And so I really believe that we need more analysts on the case. 

The other thing that we found was the lack of ISR [intelligence, 

surveillance, and reconnaissance]. I mean, this is—obviously this 

committee is dealing with that issue all the time in many different 

contexts, but we need more ISR for the U.S. European Command. 

Every interagency meeting we were in when we talked about 

what can we do, there was always this discussion of, ‘‘Well, what 

is going on?’’ And, you know, the satellite capability is one thing, 

but we really need to have the eyes on all the time. And so that 

is an area where I do believe we need to make sure that we have 

sufficient resources. 

And, of course, we could provide those resources to the Ukrainians, as well. 

Mr. TAKAI. Okay. 

Dr. Hill, is it fair to suggest that President Putin expects that 

the West will turn a blind eye to Russian aggression and continue 

to cooperate with Russia? And what do our allies and partners in 

the region need from the United States? 

Dr. HILL. I think that President Putin certainly did think that 

there was a strong possibility that we might turn a blind eye. This 

was one of his lessons that he took away from Georgia. He took the 

lack of a robust response to this as a sign that we weren’t really 

serious. 

All of the questions that we are talking about today from our 

own perspective are questions that are being asked in Moscow 

about their own perspective, in terms of analysis and intelligence 

and their posture, all against—and against deterring us. 

Putin has been seeking to exploit as many fissures as possible 

between hers and our allies, and this is one area where I have 

something of a slight disagreement with Dr. Farkas about we have 

to be very careful when we are discussing support for Ukraine and 

elsewhere about keeping unity with our European allies. This is 

really a very key element about changing those expectations that 

we will get back to business as usual with Russia. 

Mr. TAKAI. Okay. 

My time is up, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Mr. Gibson. 

Mr. GIBSON. Well, thanks, Mr. Chairman, and also the ranking 

member, for holding this important hearing. 

I am encouraged by the testimony today. It matches a lot of the 

analysis that myself and others have been doing here very recently. 

In fact, we are going to be introducing a bill this week that is 

surrounding the land forces and the need to stop the drawdown. 

Admiral, thank you for your comments as far as ensuring that 

we keep the land forces strong. 

Our bill will essentially stop this drawdown, keep the land forces 

about 1,000,035 for the Army in the total Army, and I think that 

is really important when you compare it to what the current plan 

is right now. The administration’s intent is to go to 450,000 in the 

Active Army, 335,000 in the Army National Guard, and then under 

200,000 in the Army Reserve, for a total of 977,000. 
28 

Admiral, in your comments—and actually, to all the panelists— 

in your comments earlier I think you are making a strong case for 

deterrence and, in addition, mention about the armored brigade 

and the combat aviation brigade. In Europe I think that the current situation warrants that. 

But starting with you, Admiral, I would like you to comment on, 

first of all, if you have any general comments about our efforts. It 

is bipartisan. We are in double figures now. Sergeant Major Walls, 

I appreciate his support, and we have the support of chairman, 

which is very important. 

But I am interested to hear your comment even beyond homeland defense and deterrence, the criticality from your experience of 

the ability to strategically maneuver. And here I am talking about 

the joint global response force that we hope will send a message, 

once we fully restore it, in terms of helping us with course of diplomacy, and then how that CONOP [concept of operation] then develops into early-on forces, campaign forces, if necessary command 

and control, sustainment, consolidation of gains, and effective transition, which we have struggled with over the last 15 years, and 

how important keeping the land forces strong is to that particular 

CONOP. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Happy to comment on that. And, you know, 

I wouldn’t be doing my job as a retired admiral if I didn’t say the 

words ‘‘Marine Corps’’ at this point. And I know you—— 

Mr. GIBSON. Absolutely. And that is in our bill, and—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Absolutely. And I think I was happy to see 

their force levels remain strong in this budget that will be submitted to the committee and the Hill. 

I think the two need to fit together. And General Ham and I 

have had a lot of conversations about this, and this is where the 

ability to use the Marine Corps in and around that construct of the 

really heavy Army piece I think is critical to your bill. And that 

would be the piece of advice I would give is that it ought to be very 

holistic—it sounds like it is—in terms of integrating Marine efforts 

alongside the maritime and the air that have to go with it. 

Mr. GIBSON. Appreciate that. In fact, just for clarification, the 

United States Marine Corps and Marine Corps Reserve are both 

contained inside this bill to stop the drawdown. 

Fully agree. In fact, my experience being an infantry commander, 

spent a lot of time with Marines, particularly in northern Iraq as 

we were on a flank with each other at Nineveh and Anbar Province. 

So, and then for the other panelists for comments on this? 

Dr. FARKAS. Just very quickly if I could, and then I will turn it 

over to Dr. Hill, the—on the Marine Corps it is an excellent point 

that the admiral makes. The Department of Defense has relied 

heavily on the Black Sea Rotational Force in that area, the periphery area, and the NATO Balkan countries to provide important 

readiness training and also preparation for the Georgian forces to 

deploy with us to Afghanistan where, as you know, they are the 

number two troop contributor. So I do think the Marine Corps is 

an important component. 

And as I mentioned in my written statement, aside from mentioning the aviation brigade, I also think that we really need to 
29 

keep an eye on readiness and end strength so that we don’t end 

up having a hollow force because we are stretching the Army too 

thin. 

Dr. HILL. Just one very small point, which picks up on the truncated response to Congressman Takai, as well. It is very important, 

as Dr. Farkas has said, to keep our allies in mind here, and to also 

make sure that whatever we are doing is also complemented by our 

military interactions with them, as well, because part of the deterrent effect will be us working in lockstep, as we have in the past, 

with our NATO allies and other partners. 

And all of this interoperability, maneuverability of the forces 

overall is extremely important, as I think Admiral Stavridis has 

been making clear, as well. 

Mr. GIBSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yield back. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Johnson. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you. 

Some have attributed the increase in hybrid warfare across the 

globe to the inability of the West, specifically the U.S. and Europe, 

to find a way to integrate Russia and other rising powers, the 

BRIC nations, for instance—Brazil, India, and China, and Russia— 

the inability to find a way of integrating those rising powers into 

the international order. I am thinking—well, with that in mind, the 

extent to which countries like Russia are using grey zone campaigns to grab more influence and shift the terms of regional orders is not really surprising. 

Do you have any suggestions as to how we can provide a more 

shared sense of ownership and a greater stake in the international 

order or system so that rising powers will be inclined to shape 

international politics without resorting to grey zone aggression? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I think that is a very interesting question, 

and I think its premise is roughly right, which is to say that part 

of why there is an increase in grey zone activity or hybrid warfare, 

or here I would really, Congressman, use the term ‘‘asymmetric 

warfare,’’ is partly—of exclusion from normal mechanisms. It is 

also, however, attributable to technology. 

In other words, tools are available in cyber, in social networks, 

in information, that allow smaller, less-advantaged groups to engage in these kind of activities. So it is a combination of the two 

things. 

It is interesting you mention the BRICs because I think these are 

extraordinarily different cases. Brazil is a mega-power which I do 

not think feels excluded from the international order but suffers 

from a great deal of internal challenges economically. With Brazil 

I think the prescription is to engage them fully using economic leverage to pull them into the global system. 

India I think represents our best potential partner going forward 

in this century. I think a U.S.-Indian relationship is one that will 

be critically important, and here we have to listen, pay more attention, have more exercises, more engagement with our Indian colleagues. 

I think we are actually managing the rise of China reasonably 

well. And you see China engaging in relatively responsible ways in 

the international order. 

It is really Russia that is the outlier here. 
30 

And I do want to pick up on your point, which is to say that all 

the things we have talked about today, which are confrontational 

with Russia, must include a component of collaboration, of dialogue. We can’t afford to stumble backward into a Cold War. 

We should cooperate where we can. We should confront where we 

must. And I think if we use that combination of deterrence, hard 

power, and soft power tools, that is our best bet at precluding a future of truly open conflict with Russia. 

It is a very good question. Thank you. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you. 

Dr. Farkas. 

Dr. FARKAS. Thank you for the excellent question, actually. 

I mean, I think one answer is, of course, to be more inclusive, 

perhaps, in the institutional context, so I am thinking of U.N. Security Council, et cetera. These are items that have been up for discussion for a long time, looking at the composition of that council. 

But I think otherwise, as the admiral said, it is really Russia 

that is the problem, and the type of means that they are using in 

order to assert themselves. So it is not that we oppose Russia having a special role in its periphery or in Europe writ large, or that 

we think Russia must become a member of every club that we are 

in rather than counterbalance us politically. It is the means that 

they are using that is problematic for us. 

And so how to get them to not use those means is really the subject of my testimony, whereby what I think we need to do is 

demonstrate to them that those means won’t work. And that is sort 

of the shortest answer I can give you. 

Mr. JOHNSON. All right. 

And, Dr. Hill, I wish I could hear from you on that point. But 

let me ask you this: What sort of relationship do you believe Putin 

is looking for with the West? 

Dr. HILL. Actually, Putin is looking for the relationship with the 

West that you outlined in really what was an excellent question. 

He wants to be one of the chairmen of the board. I mean, he wants 

to be in the same kind of arrangement that Russia thinks that it 

has on the U.N. Security Council, which is, you know, having basically a say in the global agenda and a right to veto things that it 

doesn’t like. 

And the focal point right now has been in Europe and the European security order, but also now in the Middle East, where Russia 

sees the order breaking down. What we have to be able to do is 

kind of articulate a broader vision for Russia of seeing that the 

methods that they are using in Europe and the Middle East will 

actually be counterproductive for Russia in a much more global 

perspective. 

Russia has key interests in the Asia-Pacific. We have already 

mentioned the Arctic. And Russia is actually vulnerable in both of 

those theaters, and it is also vulnerable, frankly, in Central Asia, 

which is another area of its traditional interest. 

So we have to articulate a sense that if Russia wants to be on 

the board with the rest of us then it has to play by rules that we 

all generally share, including, frankly, China. We have to engage 

Russia in different theaters and to show that there is actually an 
31 

alternative way of getting of our attention and of being there 

present when we are discussing new rules of the game. 

So this is a real challenge. It is a diplomatic challenge, but I 

think it also requires a showing from the military perspective that 

we are talking about today that we mean business and that we will 

not accept those methods. 

And it is also important because the rest of the BRICs are watching. China, India, you know, all the other rising powers are trying 

to see how we handle this relationship with Russia. So we should 

think about this crisis as a test not just for Russia, but for how we 

want to set the tone for future engagements internationally. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Ms. Gabbard. 

Ms. GABBARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Farkas, you talked about Russia being the most immediate 

threat to the United States, and I think you and the admiral both 

touched on the question of whether or not we should be focusing 

resources on the Asia-Pacific or shifting that back towards the 

East. 

And I am wondering if you can comment on the seeming conflict 

between the statements that you are making versus those we hear 

from others within defense, especially with regard to North Korea 

being our number one threat, especially given the provocations that 

we have seen from them with the missile tests, the nuclear tests, 

their increased capabilities, the effect that that is having on the region, South Korea looking to increase its missile defense capability 

with our help, the changing and growing dynamic in the Asia-Pacific region, and the list goes on and on. 

Obviously, being from Hawaii, my home State feels very directly 

the threat every time North Korea launches a missile test, conducts a nuclear test, recognizing that within their current capabilities we fall significantly within range. So I wonder if you can argue 

that point on why you are right and those who say that North 

Korea is our number one threat are wrong. 

Dr. FARKAS. Thank you very much for the question. I worked, as 

I mentioned earlier, for the Senate Armed Services Committee and 

worked very hard and aggressively for Senator Levin, at the time, 

on North Korea. And in fact, in 2008 I went to North Korea, went 

to Yongbyon. 

So I agree with you 100 percent, the threat from North Korea is 

serious and we need to be addressing it. But I don’t think that it 

is at the same level as the threat that we are seeing from Russia 

right now in terms of the potential dangers we face with Russia. 

The capabilities that the Russian Federation has far surpass the 

capabilities of the North Korean regime, and I think that we have 

the means to respond, you know—we have the means to respond 

to both, but I think that to respond to Russia requires a bigger 

undertaking. 

So I hate, though, to rank—— 

Ms. GABBARD. Yes. 

Dr. FARKAS [continuing]. Threats. You know, they are both 

threats and—but I emphasize the Russian one because it is here 
32 

and now, it is in our face. We really need to understand it because 

there is a real danger that if we don’t stand firm against Putin he 

will take the opportunity to use military force again, as he did in 

Georgia, as he did in Ukraine, even before that in Moldova, as he 

did in Syria. 

He will be tempted to use it again, and of course, the worst case 

for us would be if he used it against a NATO ally or, of course, God 

forbid, against us, although I don’t—in both cases I don’t think it 

is probable, but it is still, for the Department of Defense, obviously 

prudent to worry about the worst-case scenario. 

Ms. GABBARD. Yes. 

Dr. FARKAS. So I think that is the worst-case scenario, but clearly I don’t mean to say that the North Korean threat is not important, and we need to focus on that, as well. We can’t pick among— 

you know, we can’t pick, and I think the ranking thing is a little 

bit overdone—— 

Ms. GABBARD. Yes. 

Dr. FARKAS [continuing]. Because, of course, terrorism is the immediate and urgent. 

Ms. GABBARD. No, I agree. 

Dr. FARKAS. And for the Europeans, terrorism and immigration. 

So—— 

Ms. GABBARD. Yes. 

Dr. FARKAS [continuing]. The admiral perhaps would—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I would only add to that, I have written extensively and have said that North Korea is the most dangerous 

country in the world, and I think they are in a tactical sense. I 

think Russia, because of its throw weight and its strategic play, 

represents a significant strategic challenge for the United States, 

if that helps how we articulate it. 

But I would not in any way understate the risks on the Korean 

Peninsula in particular. 

Ms. GABBARD. Thank you. 

Thank you both. 

Dr. Hill, building a little bit off of that, and also something you 

said earlier about how the U.S. and Russia are, quote, ‘‘on a longterm collision course,’’ in particular as it relates to Syria. I am just 

wondering if you can expand on that a little bit and why you believe that is the case. 

Dr. HILL. In the case of Syria, Russia has very longstanding interests. This is a relationship that dates back to the Soviet era. 

The relationship preceded Bashar al-Assad’s; it was a relationship that Russia also established with his father. They are very interested in propping up the regime and also keeping the state of 

Syria together. 

This is not a sideshow for Russia. It is actually a domestic foreign policy issue. 

Russia has exactly the same concerns as all of the other neighboring states do and European states about the influence of extremism on its domestic politics. Russia has the largest indigenous 

Muslim population of any European country, and we do think of 

Russia as a European country; and Moscow has the largest Muslim 

population in its capital. This is an indigenous Russian population. 
33 

The Russian government have recently stated that they are following 2,800 foreign fighters from Russia in Syria. There are foreign fighters from the neighboring countries in Central Asia and 

the Caucasus. 

So Russia has, you know, all the questions that we have about 

the future of Syria, and they believe that keeping the Syrian state 

together with someone like Assad, a strongman at the head, is the 

best solution for them. 

We have been on a collision course because obviously we have 

not had the same starting point. We have the same end point of 

wanting to keep some semblance of the Syrian state together, but 

we did not want to begin with Assad. 

So Russia has, as we have been discussing today, decided to use 

their military as a blunt instrument in foreign policy to force us to 

start from the same point as Russia has in determining the future 

of Syria. 

Ms. GABBARD. Thank you. I agree with your assessment of that 

and remain concerned about this head-to-head collision path that 

we are on between the U.S. and Russia, specifically because of that 

difference and those diametrically opposed objectives in Syria. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. So do you think it is possible for the U.S. and 

Russia to reach a, quote-unquote, ‘‘acceptable agreement’’ on Syria? 

Dr. HILL. I actually do. I think it will take a lot of work, however, because it is—as we have been saying all the way along, this 

is not a two-way game. It is not between the U.S. and Russia by 

any stretch of the imagination. 

Russia has differences not just with the United States but with 

Turkey, which it very clearly expressed now on very risky and very 

dangerous terms. Russia has a difference of opinion with Saudi 

Arabia, with Qatar and other Gulf States. 

And frankly, Russia also has a difference of opinion with Iran. 

We have to be very careful here to make sure that we are clear 

that Russia has not jumped into the sectarian divide in the Middle 

East by any stretch. 

Russia’s Muslim population are predominantly Sunni, but it also 

does have a Shia population inside of its own territory and on its 

periphery. And Russia doesn’t want to be part of a religious war; 

it wants to actually stop these. 

Russia wants to see some kind of new balance of power in the 

Middle East. It doesn’t want to see Iran actually get the upper 

hand over other Middle East players, either. 

So in many respects, Russia and the United States are on very 

much the same page. We want stability; we want a new order in 

the Middle East. We want to actually protect some of the same regional players. 

Russia is just as concerned about the fate of Israel as we are 

now. It is a very different relationship with Israel than it was during the Cold War for Russia. It is a very important bilateral relationship. 

So there are a lot of things that we can talk about here. We just 

have to get away from the idea that it is just a collision between 

the two of us over actually a country that we don’t have any intrinsic interest in owning. 
34 

Russia does not want to own Syria as a protectorate. It wants to 

eventually get out of Syria, maintaining its base and other interests there, but to see an order emerging around Syria and the Middle East. 

So I do think that we can do this. We just have to be clear-headed and do our homework. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. May I add a comment, which is I agree we 

can get to a diplomatic solution, but it will require us accepting 

Assad for some period of time, which will be difficult to swallow, 

given his level of atrocity against his own people. I take some comfort from the fact that in the Balkans we had to cut a similar deal. 

Milosevic stayed in power, and in the end Milosevic died in a jail 

cell in The Hague. 

But we will get there diplomatically. It will require us to take a 

hard swallow on Assad. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. 

Mr. Garamendi. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And to the three witnesses, thank you for your very balanced assessment of the situation, particularly your desire to share with us 

what appears to be, in my view, trying to understand Russia, to 

look at the situation from the Russian perspective so that we have 

a better ability to decide what we want to do. I very much appreciate that. 

There is a whole series of issues. In fact, I would like to pull you 

aside and share 10 gallons of coffee with you over the next 10 days. 

A couple of issues: One, it seems to me the ambiguity that NATO 

presently has with regard to little green men in the Baltics is 

troublesome. So if you could speak to that, should we not be clear 

as to what precisely would be a NATO incursion? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Thank you, sir. 

We talked a bit earlier about Article 5 and then the definition 

of an attack, which is Article 6, and the way warfare has changed 

and morphed. I think because of what has occurred in Ukraine, 

NATO is much more on alert, will work much harder to identify 

through intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance activities. 

And I think, frankly, I wouldn’t want to speak for the Baltic 

States, but I am assured they would take a very aggressive posture, and I think they would immediately use lethal force. And I 

think that would be a salutary effect. So I think NATO has moved 

in its direction. 

I agree we should do this over 10 gallons of vodka. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Well, that would terminate conversation for 

sure. 

Any further comments about should we be ambiguous about this 

or should we be clear as to what a threat really is? 

Dr. FARKAS. Yes. The admiral just whispered, ‘‘Clear.’’ And I 

think we, yes, clear. I mean, that is what the—our Baltic allies 

would like, and that is what we owe to—owe them. 

We are, as I mentioned earlier, doing a lot of work with our special operations forces. We need to do more, though, to help law enforcement in the Baltic countries, and also the Balkan countries, 

Romania and Bulgaria. 
35 

Mr. GARAMENDI. I am going to say thank you for that, but it 

seems to me we need clarity as to what is an incursion, what is 

an attack. Any ambiguity will lead to, I think, a very difficult situation. 

So I got two other things. 

You talked about cyber warfare. What agency in the United 

States government is responsible for a cyberattack on the United 

States? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. This is a confused situation in our government. I will give you kind of two answers to it and throw in a 

third. 

The Department of Homeland Security is broadly responsible. 

The National Security Agency, which is part of the Department of 

Defense, provides the tool sets and, I would argue, will be where 

this response will occur. And the Department of Defense has a specific set of responsibilities to protect military capabilities, notably 

our strategic nuclear systems. 

So that is just the beginning, and we would probably need 20 

gallons of vodka to really get through the cyber structure in the 

government, but this is an area that I think this committee could 

profitably spend a great deal of time examining. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. I asked the question for a specific reason, which 

is everybody is responsible and, therefore, nobody has—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Nobody is accountable as a result. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Mr. Chairman, we need to deal with this. We 

are talking about a foreign cyberattack. 

I noticed that the budget has a whole lot more money for cybersecurity, which I think they mean how to protect our databases. I 

think there is something far, far beyond that that we need to address, and that is why would anybody that wants to do harm to the 

United States spend all their on building a nuclear weapon for an 

EMP attack when you can simply hire a bunch of teenagers and 

take down the entire grid system, the electrical grid system in the 

United States? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. You are right to emphasize the grid. Of all 

the things that are vulnerable—financial, health, military—the 

segment that is most vulnerable is our grid system. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Thirty-six seconds: Why are we engaging in a 

new nuclear arms race that will cost us $1 trillion? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. The short answer is, in the 24 seconds, because Russia is expanding their modernization capability with an 

enormous focus on nuclear weapons and they have a leader who 

frequently mentions that we should not forget that they have nuclear weapons. I think it is, unfortunately, a necessity for us. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Agreement from the—— 

Dr. FARKAS. I would agree with that. I mean, we have to deter 

Russia. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. And we need to do that by spending $1 trillion 

on an entire new system? 

Dr. FARKAS. Well, I am not going to argue about the dollar 

amount, but I do think we need to keep our force modernized so 

that we can continue to deter Russia. As the admiral said, unfortunately that is the reality. 
36 

Dr. HILL. We also need to find a way of pushing back to arms 

control discussions, particularly as we reach next year and the 30th 

anniversary of the Gorbachev-Reagan summitry. Perhaps we need, 

you know, to channel the cooler heads of that period, as well, 

and—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. So there may be another path available to us? 

Dr. HILL. There may be. Correct. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. I thought so. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to prevail upon you all for just a couple more questions hopefully. 

Dr. Hill, I gotta ask you about this: A line of argument is that 

Putin wanted to cooperate with us until the Balkans happened and 

we bombed, you know, Syria, and we didn’t listen to him on a couple other things and then he went off in a completely different direction. Is that true, or has he always been who we see today? 

Dr. HILL. I think it is the problem of understanding other people’s threat perceptions and the environment in which they operate. I think it was always a very hard sell to persuade someone like 

Putin and the people around him that, you know, we actually 

meant well towards Russia. 

This is somebody who was trained in a Cold War environment 

to be deeply suspicious about the United States. I don’t think he 

is actually in any way intrinsically anti-American, but he is always 

deeply suspicious of threats to Russia. 

And the way that he has interpreted and read world events, 

based on information that is being passed to him and also his own 

worldview and perspective, is that beginning, frankly, in 2003, with 

the U.S. invasion of Iraq—it isn’t really to do necessarily with the 

Balkans—that we, the United States, have been in the business of 

regime change. And based on what he and others saw in the Balkans in the 1990s, that Admiral Stavridis is referring to, that we 

might eventually get around to him and to Russia. 

Back in 1999—and I can say this with good authority because I 

was actually in Russia during the NATO bombing—across the 

whole spectrum of the Russian political system people believed that 

if NATO could bomb Belgrade that meant NATO could bomb Moscow. We might think that is preposterous; that was their threat 

perception. 

And since then, Putin and the people around him have talked 

themselves into seeing that everything that we do fits into that 

frame. And it has really been—the pivotal point was the protests 

in Russia in 2011, 2012, where we laughed this off when Putin 

claimed that the State Department had been behind the protest, 

that the protestors were being paid for by U.S. nongovernmental 

organizations, but he firmly believed it. 

Again, he believes that we have continued with active measures 

since the Cold War, that we have never stepped back. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. 

Dr. HILL. And so the problem has been how to persuade someone 

who thinks like that that in actual fact this is not the case. So that 

is the challenge that we have had. 

The CHAIRMAN. And he has some sort of—or those people around 

him have some sort of self-interest to perpetuate this myth. Of 
37 

course, one of the things that we have not talked about today is 

the use of assassination, which has also been in the news here recently. 

I would like to broaden out for a just a second and ask each of 

you to address this. 

And actually it is based on an article, Dr. Farkas, you had that 

Putin is trying to rewrite the international rules because he sees 

the international order since the end of World War II as being developed by us for us. And so part of what is going on here is not 

just promoting strategic interests in this or that place, but a fundamental rewrite of the international order so it can be more to their 

advantage. 

Now, we hear the same thing on the Chinese, by the way. But 

if you would start and just address this briefly, if you could, this 

attempt not just to, again, protect their interests, but to change the 

whole ballgame. 

Dr. FARKAS. Thank you very much, Congressman—or Mr. Chairman. 

Unfortunately, Putin is trying to rewrite the rules, and that is 

precisely the problem that we have. The means that he uses run 

counter to the rules. 

So in his belief system he believes that minority rights allow him 

to go in and seize territory, so to take territory in Georgia—you 

know, he is occupying 20 percent of Georgia right now; to go into 

Ukraine and take Crimea, and then do the military operations that 

he is conducting right now in the East. 

So in his view, he has the right to intervene in order to protect 

those Russians, and Dr. Hill mentioned that as well, the ethnic 

Russians. 

He also would like to prevent us from intervening in order to 

support peaceful transitions or not-so-peaceful transitions from 

autocratic, despotic rulers to democratic systems. So the Arab 

Springs, for example—the Arab Spring—I mean, you can take Tunisia, you can name any of them, but he was absolutely opposed 

to any kind of outside intervention and he perceived them as being 

on the—in the same model as the Iraq intervention, where we intervened and we got rid of Saddam Hussein. 

His view is he wants to intervene in order to protect the dictator, 

in order to keep the Saddam Hussein or the Bashar al-Assad in 

power. So it is a different understanding—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Because that is a way of protecting himself. 

Dr. FARKAS. Right. And it is a different understanding of the balance between sovereignty and human and minority rights that we 

have had since the Second World War. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Can I just add to that, Mr. Chairman, one 

thing we haven’t touched on greatly is domestic political concerns 

for Mr. Putin. And I don’t need to tell a committee of politicians 

that that matters pretty deeply how you are perceived, where your 

power base comes from. 

And so much of his appeal to the Russian people is tied into this 

idea of himself as a strong man. If you look at Russian history, 

they roll the cosmic dice: One time they get Ivan the Terrible, the 

next they get Peter the Great; one time they get Stalin, then they 

get a Gorbachev. 
38 

The dice have landed definitively on Putin. He will continue to 

play that strongman card. He has got to win. He has got to be seen 

as winning and he has to be seen as capable of pulling these levers 

of power. It is fundamental to who he is domestically as well as all 

of the geopolitical points we have talked about today. 

The CHAIRMAN. And, Dr. Hill, in your comments also—one of you 

all mentioned earlier, I noted, ‘‘deflect public attention.’’ Part of the 

reason he is more aggressive is to distract people. Again, an argument that is made about China, as well. 

So if you could address this change the international order question? 

Dr. HILL. Yes. Changing the international order is very much on 

the agenda for Putin and the team around him in Russia. I mean, 

I think, you know, as Dr. Farkas has been saying, there has been 

a very strong consensus in Russia—and I would say it actually has 

been since 1999 and the NATO bombing of Belgrade—that the 

order is not working for them and that there needs to be some way 

of wresting a veto out of the international system, particularly in 

Europe, for Russia to block things that it does not like. 

In terms of the internal political situation in Russia now, Putin 

is actually in a more precarious position than he might have 

seemed from the perspective of his ratings. We are talking about 

88 to 90 percent in public opinion. 

Some of this is real. It is based on Putin’s long record as a Russian leader since 2000. I mean, he really has had a lot of signature 

achievements, especially in the economy and in terms of stability 

in the political system. 

The cosmic dice actually seem to have rolled in a—into a good 

place, as far as most Russians are concerned, and we should be 

really well aware of that. 

The problem is—and it is one that perhaps other politicians 

would envy—that there is no political alternative. And that is risky 

because the only alternative to Putin is Putin-in-the-past. All of his 

ratings depend on how he performed prior to that opinion poll 

being taken. 

And in the past Putin was actually seen to be lacking at different 

points. There would be a crisis and his ratings would fall. 

If you look at the ratings of the political system of the Russian 

government and of the performance of the Russian economy and 

the state outside of Putin’s performance, you see a very different 

picture. Russians are not happy with the way that their country is 

being governed. 

So Putin is the ultimate populist figure right now. He has to at 

all times appear to be in charge and in control. That is something 

I guess we are all familiar with in many other settings. 

So this is Putin’s challenge: He has to show that if the economy 

is failing that someone else is to blame. It is the United States; it 

is Western sanctions. And he is putting all of the spotlight onto 

military victories in Syria and in Ukraine and onto being the big 

international player. 

The period when we are all bemoaning a lack of international 

leadership, Putin is trying to demonstrate it. It is not in the way 

that we would like, but it is now very important for his own validation, legitimacy, and ratings at home in Russia. 
39 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. 

Let me ask one other thing: Admiral Stavridis, at the end of your 

written statement you say, ‘‘We prevail by outthinking our opponents.’’ 

Give us a grade. How are we doing at outthinking our opponents? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. In the case of Russia, B-minus at best. 

What I was trying to get at there, Mr. Chairman, was not only 

the topics we have talked about today, but also using our ability 

to learn and understand the history, the culture, the language. We 

need to be capable of reaching across a divide like this, and that 

requires real intellectual capital—scholars, students, analysts. We 

have touched on that a bit. 

We have volumes of data about Russia but we are not very good 

at understanding and analyzing it. And oh, by the way, if you really want to understand Russia go easy on the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] reporting; go back to reading Dostoyevsky, and 

Tolstoy, and Lermontov, and Pushkin, and the great Russian writers. They tell us a lot about the situation we face today. That is 

what I was getting at in that—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Can we bring on the coffee and keep going? 

[Laughter.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Charles Hill wrote a book about understanding 

opponents based on its literature, which is what—but let me just 

take subset of the question to our responsibilities. Part of what we 

are trying to do is promote some reforms to help the Department 

of Defense be more agile in a very complex world. A lot of that is 

the thinking that goes on within the military. 

If you were to put a couple items on our agenda to consider when 

it comes to improving the intellectual agility of our military, what 

would you have on that list? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Not speaking specifically to Russia, which I 

addressed a moment ago—yes, very broadly I would say we need 

to continue to put an emphasis on graduate education. And I say 

that with a certain amount of self-servingness, as the dean of a 

graduate school of international relations, but continuing to put 

emphasis, as Ike Skelton, who is over your left shoulder right 

there, built into this committee a sense of how can we educate our 

future leaders in the military. And that ought to happen at every 

level. 

If you want a practical proposal I would say take a look at the 

National Defense University and ask the question of why is that 

not a capstone to which all the service war colleges report and 

build a structure that definitively puts education on the agenda 

where Chairman Skelton believed it should be? I think it still is 

taking some hits if not below the waterline then pretty close to it. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. That is helpful. 

And Mr. Garamendi is right. We are going to need more coffee 

to finish these. 

Mr. Aguilar. 

Mr. AGUILAR. I don’t want to stand in the way of the chairman 

and the panel having lunch either, so I will be very cautious here. 

I did want to pick up on the theme of aggression. 

And, Dr. Hill, you just talked about Syria, as well. 
40 

At this moment Russian-backed Syrian forces are working to encircle the rebel-held parts of Aleppo. Assad is on the cusp of a 

major victory and thousands of civilians are fleeing. 

There is a serious concern that those in the city will stay and be 

cut off from food and other types of foreign aid. Because of the Russian aggression and interference, we are on the cusp of another 

siege in a heavily populated Syrian city. 

With Russia playing such a large role in this offensive, what 

would you recommend be done to counter the crisis, if anything? 

And do you think—what do you think are the implications of this 

offensive on our efforts to counter Russia in the future? 

Dr. HILL. I think part of our problem is that it is not just a military issue here; it is—there is a certain psychological element to 

this. 

Putin and the people around him have been engaged in similar 

military operations not just in their periphery, in Georgia and 

Ukraine, but within their own territory in Chechnya. And if you 

look back to two wars in Chechnya, beginning in 1994 and the Russian Federation, you can see a very clear focus on basically pursuing a goal no matter what to preserve the state. 

And Putin, I think, looks at Assad and sees Assad as being in 

the same situation that he, Vladimir Putin, was when he came into 

office in 2000, when the war on Chechnya had erupted again. And 

Putin was determined, no matter what the consequences were in 

terms of civilian casualties or the destruction of Chechnya’s capital 

city, Grozny, to prevail. 

So Putin is pushing his forces behind Assad to make sure that 

Assad prevails. So I am afraid the civilian casualties are not really 

factoring into this in an operational way. 

So we have to figure out how to engage with Russia not just in 

military ways but to change that psychology, to show that in some 

respects this will have consequences for Russia as well, in the way 

that it is viewed in the Middle East and in the way that it is 

viewed more globally. Because Russia now believes that the refugee 

problem and the civilian crisis are somebody else’s problem: They 

are Turkey’s problem; they are Lebanon’s problem; they are Jordan’s problem; and they are now Europe’s problem. 

And that is not something that they are going to step away from. 

If they are exposing that problem, that is not theirs to deal with. 

We have to show that civilian casualties actually matter and that 

the broader psychology of this war will be very detrimental to Russia in the longer term, that they need to rethink the way that they 

are pursuing this. 

Dr. FARKAS. If I could just add to that, as I said in my opening 

comments, I think, unfortunately, we have to do more militarily to 

support the Syrian opposition and work with our allies. And Secretary Carter is trying to do that right now, get some more, you 

know, metal into the game, if you will. 

As Dr. Hill mentioned, it is not just a military problem. And ultimately what we need against Russia is leverage. 

So if we can get it on the battlefield, great. If we can’t get it only 

through military means, which I think is probably the case, we 

should look at other measures. 
41 

So can we come up with a package of sanctions that we can implement with our Middle Eastern allies and partners against Russia? Because right now we have sanctions where we are sanctioning Russia in the Ukraine context, but perhaps there is something we can do to signal to Russia that what they are doing in 

Syria, their—the way they are waging the war, the disingenuousness, you know, saying they are going after ISIS [Islamic State of 

Iraq and Syria] when they are not, the type of bombs they are 

using, the civilian casualties, et cetera—that that is unacceptable. 

But we need to be looking for leverage, ultimately. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I would only add that we have a couple 

unpalatable futures ahead if we are going to solve this diplomatically. One I have mentioned already, which is I think we are going 

to have to accept Assad for some period of time. 

The second one, which we haven’t touched on, is a partition of 

Syria. I think that increasingly that may be part of the solution. 

That sounds quite unthinkable, but if you look back on the Balkans 20 years ago you saw Yugoslavia break apart—really 30 years 

ago—erupt in war 20 years ago, and ultimately those problems 

were solved by partitioning, by accepting Milosevic for a period of 

time, and by working with the United States, with NATO, and with 

Russia collectively. I think there are some lessons there from history looking at the Balkans that may have to be applied. 

No one is going to walk away a complete winner from this process. 

Mr. AGUILAR. Thank you. 

I will yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. McSally. 

Ms. MCSALLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thanks for your testimony. 

Admiral Stavridis, it is good to see you again. I have a couple 

questions for you. 

The first is as we talk about, you know, budget-saving and downsizing all the time here, oftentimes a target is headquarter staff. 

There is discussion of bloated headquarters. 

And having worked at a COCOM [combatant command], I see 

some value in the COCOM staff. And so I just wanted to ask for 

you to, you know, just share your perspectives on how important 

it is to have the right size of a staff at the COCOM so that they 

are not an obvious target, because if we, you know, if we get too 

small in those areas then there are capabilities that are just not 

going to happen. 

And if you also have a comment on EUCOM [U.S. European 

Command] separate from AFRICOM [U.S. Africa Command], because I think that is something that gets talked about, you know, 

having 92 countries in your responsibility versus having that 

peeled off where you can really focus on the challenges you have 

all mentioned today. That is just my first question to you. 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Sure. First of all, great to see you, as well, 

and thanks for your service on our EUCOM staff. 

I think that the process of rightsizing our staffs is something 

that has to go on consistently. There has been an enormous growth 

in staffs, broadly speaking, over the last 20 years, including the 

Department of Defense, the NSC [National Security Council] staff, 
42 

and, of course, right here on Capitol Hill. It strikes me as we are 

in a world of rapid-moving information and technology we ought to 

be able to do some level of consolidation. 

Having said that, I believe in the COCOM model, the combatant 

command model. I think it makes a great deal of sense and it allows us to have the kind of regional specialization that I think is 

crucial. 

Whether or not EUCOM and AFRICOM ought to be remerged, 

I think at the moment that probably is not a good idea. It is worth 

examining that. 

More profitably, perhaps looking at NORTHCOM [U.S. Northern 

Command] and SOUTHCOM [U.S. Southern Command], there 

might be some synergies there that could be addressed. You could 

also look at TRANSCOM [U.S. Transportation Command] and DLA 

[Defense Logistics Agency]. 

So I think there are areas where mergers would make some 

sense. I wouldn’t at this minute advocate one between EUCOM and 

AFRICOM. 

I do think we need to put downward pressure on staffs, but we 

need to do it in an informed way. 

Ms. MCSALLY. Great. Thank you. 

I know you talked about in your testimony about moving Army 

forces out of Europe and how that has not been ideal, but we have 

also moved some air forces out of Europe, as well. You know, 81st 

Fighter Squadron closed down. First time we didn’t have A–10s in 

Europe in decades. But now we are deploying them back to Europe, 

which I am guessing is probably more costly for us to do that. 

So could you comment about the importance of our air assets 

there for deterrence and training, as well? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. Sure. And you mentioned the A–10. I think, 

like a lot of people currently in uniform, I also am an A–10 fan. 

I think they are a simple, workable answer, and I think in a European context could be extremely important if we really went to the 

dark end of the spectrum. Certainly they could be useful in many 

other areas. 

I also am a big fan of special forces aircraft in Europe. We are 

moving, as you know, some of the V–22s in. 

At the end of the day, the good news about airplanes is you can 

fly them and they can move and they can come in. But there is a 

real power in having them present that allows you to deter and, 

again, at the dark end of the spectrum, conduct significant operations. 

So as I mentioned on land forces, I would also echo we ought to 

be looking again at cuts in the European theater on the air side. 

Ms. MCSALLY. Great. Thanks. 

And last quick question, again in the budget pressures we are all 

often focused on making sure we have hard military power, but 

there is the soft engagement, which I believe is also valuable. And 

I was a professor at the Marshall Center, as you may know, and 

so I just, again, as the former SACEUR [Supreme Allied Commander Europe], can you just comment on the value of the Marshall Center and how that is important for the European theater 

and dealing with potential Russian aggression? 
43 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I can. Marshall Center Garmisch is an iconic 

example of what we talked about a moment ago that Chairman 

Skelton built into the system, which is education as a tool of national power that goes alongside it. It is where we create soft 

power; it is how we learn how to use hard power. 

Not only the Marshall Center, but really all of these regional 

centers, which are a pittance in the big scheme of things, I think 

are extraordinarily valuable to the Department and to the nation. 

Ms. MCSALLY. Do you have any ideas—there have been discussions of consolidation of some of those centers. Do you have any 

perspective on that—— 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. I think the budget savings are so miniscule 

that that probably does not make a great deal of sense. 

Ms. MCSALLY. Great. Thanks. 

And I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thanks so much. 

The CHAIRMAN. This has been very helpful, and I am very grateful to each of you for sharing your expertise with us today in some 

very complex, difficult issues that the country faces. 

So the hearing stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

A P P E N D I X 

FEBRUARY 10, 2016 

PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD 

FEBRUARY 10, 2016 

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QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING 

FEBRUARY 10, 2016 

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QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. GARAMENDI 

Mr. GARAMENDI. In your spoken testimony, you stated that ‘‘unfortunately’’ the 

United States must modernize its nuclear forces to counter Russia’s new emphasis 

on tactical nuclear weapons, its nuclear ‘‘first use’’ policy, and its doctrine of ‘‘escalate to deescalate.’’ Which specific U.S. nuclear weapons systems do you believe 

must be modernized? What specific roles would each system play in deterring a Russian threat to NATO? To the extent that these roles are currently played by loweryield U.S. nuclear weapons such as nuclear gravity bombs and nuclear cruise missiles, which could potentially be met with advanced conventional systems, such as 

hypersonic weapons and advanced, conventional cruise missiles? 

Dr. FARKAS. Given the Russian nuclear modernization, their doctrine, verbal 

saber-rattling and violation of the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty, the United 

States must ensure that our nuclear deterrence is robust and effective. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. In your spoken testimony, you stated that ‘‘unfortunately’’ the 

United States must modernize its nuclear forces to counter Russia’s new emphasis 

on tactical nuclear weapons, its nuclear ‘‘first use’’ policy, and its doctrine of ‘‘escalate to deescalate.’’ Which specific U.S. nuclear weapons systems do you believe 

must be modernized? What specific roles would each system play in deterring a Russian threat to NATO? To the extent that these roles are currently played by loweryield U.S. nuclear weapons such as nuclear gravity bombs and nuclear cruise missiles, which could potentially be met with advanced conventional systems, such as 

hypersonic weapons and advanced, conventional cruise missiles? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. [No answer was available at the time of printing.] 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MS. BORDALLO 

Ms. BORDALLO. The Russian deployment last fall of a Borei-class submarine carrying long range nuclear capable ballistic missiles to Vladivostock, and the potential 

of a second sub arriving this year indicates Russian intentions to increase its presence on and beyond its Pacific Coast. In your opinion, what impact would a corresponding decrease in U.S. Navy ships, as well as unilateral and joint exercises, 

in the region have on our ability to project power and reassure our allies and partners? 

Dr. HILL. The deployment of a Borei-class ballistic missile submarine indicates 

that Russia intends to continue to operate ballistic missile submarines from its Pacific coast as well as from the Kola Peninsula. This is a long-standing practice of 

the Russian navy, just as the United States operates ballistic missile submarines 

in both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. 

The number of U.S. Navy ships as well as the number unilateral exercises and, 

in particular, joint exercises obviously affect the U.S. ability to project power in the 

region as well as to reassure U.S. allies and partners in the Western Pacific. But 

I would consider that a separate issue from the question of the Borei-class submarine deployment. 

Ms. BORDALLO. The Russian deployment last fall of a Borei-class submarine carrying long range nuclear capable ballistic missiles to Vladivostock, and the potential 

of a second sub arriving this year indicates Russian intentions to increase its presence on and beyond its Pacific Coast. In your opinion, what impact would a corresponding decrease in U.S. Navy ships, as well as unilateral and joint exercises, 

in the region have on our ability to project power and reassure our allies and partners? 

Dr. FARKAS. The United States must continue to project power and protect freedom of navigation in Asia-Pacific and maintain our nuclear triad as part of nuclear 

deterrence. This means that the Navy must be funded ensure the right mix of platforms and capabilities. 

Ms. BORDALLO. The Russian deployment last fall of a Borei-class submarine carrying long-range nuclear capable ballistic missiles to Vladivostock, and the potential 

of a second sub arriving this year indicates Russian intentions to increase its pres- 
94 

ence on and beyond its Pacific Coast. In your opinion, what impact would a corresponding decrease in U.S. Navy ships, as well as unilateral and joint exercises, 

in the region have on our ability to project power and reassure our allies and partners? 

Admiral STAVRIDIS. [No answer was available at the time of printing.] 

Æ