Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 TRANSCRIPT OF 7 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING 8 9 FAA Southwest Regional Offices 10 2601 Meacham Boulevard 11 Fort Worth, Texas 12 13 14 February 14, 2013 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 2 1 PRESENT AT MEETING: 2 Name Group 3 Bennett, Vince ....................ANE-7 Cox, Fran .........................ASW-190 4 Crookshanks, Clint ................NTSB Denton, Byron .....................AEC 5 Dunn, Theresa .....................ASW-7 Euler, Arlan (Via Telephone).......SAT-MIDO 6 Garvens, Jeff .....................DAS/ECI/AEC Gillespie, Don ....................DELTA G DESIGN 7 Hakala, Peter .....................ASW-190 Harman, Keuthe ....................ASW-190 8 Laufman, Steve (Via Telephone).....SAT-MIDO Maguire, Wayne.....................ANE-111 9 NASH, Derek .......................NTSB Priester, Jurgen ..................ASW-190 10 Sharon, Gary ......................ASW-190 Stoller, Ty .......................DAS/ECI/AEC 11 Thompson, Matthew .................ASW-190 Vickers, Bill......................ASW-190 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 3 1 MS. COX: Let's first go around the room 

### 2 real quick to make sure that everybody knows who 

### 3 everybody is. Starting with you, sir. 

### 4 MR. NASH: Derek Nash, NTSB. 

### 5 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Clint Crookshanks, NTSB. 

### 6 MR. GILLESPIE: Don Gillespie, Delta G 

### 7 Design. 

### 8 MR. HAKALA: Pete Hakala, ASW-190. 

### 9 MR. THOMPSON: Matt Thompson, ASW-190. 

### 10 MR. MAGUIRE: Wayne Maguire -- oh. Sorry. 

### 11MR. HARMON: Go ahead, Wayne. 

### 12 MR. MAGUIRE: Wayne Maguire, ANE-111, 

### 13 Burlington, Massachusetts. 

### 14 MR. HARMON: Kuethe Harmon, Program 

### 15 Manager, ASW-190. 

### 16 MR. PRIESTER: Jurgen Priester, ASW-190. 

### 17 MR. SHARON: I'm Gary Sharon, Branch 

### 18 Manager in ASW-190. 

### 19 MS. COX: I'm Fran Cox, Manager in ASW-190. 

### 20 MS. DUNN: Theresa Dunn, Regional Counsel's 

### 21Office here in Southwest Region. 

### 22 MR. BENNETT: Vincent Bennett. Directorate 

### 23 Counsel. 

### 24 MR. VICKERS: Bill Vickers, ASW-190. 

### 25 MR. DENTON: Bryonn Denton, AirmotiveJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 4 1 Engineering. 

### 2 MR. GARVENS: Jeff Garvens, Danbury 

### 3 AeroSpace. 

### 4 MR. STOLLER: Ty Stoller, Danbury 

### 5 AeroSpace. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Jimmy Tubbs, Danbury AeroSpace. 

### 7 MS. COX: On the phone? 

### 8 MR. THOMPSON: Steve, Arlen, can you 

### 9 introduce? 

### 10 MR. LAUFMAN: Yes, I'm sorry. We're having 

### 11a little intermittent connection here. 

### 12 I'm Steve Laufman in San Antonio. I'm the 

### 13 principal inspector for Airmotive Engineering. 

### 14 MR. EULER: Yes. And Arlan Euler, the 

### 15 senior ASI out of San Antonio-MIDO. 

### 16 MS. COX: Okay. And we have our court 

### 17 reporter here. 

### 18 So, and also, on other logistics, we've got 

### 19 this on Sametime so that MIDO can see the presentation 

### 20 also. 

### 21MR. LAUFMAN: Great. 

### 22 MS. COX: And I want to just say thank you 

### 23 to everybody. I know some people have traveled in here 

### 24 to make this happen. AEC has requested this meeting 

### 25 and I appreciate everyone making it happen.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 5 1 So you had some information you wanted to 

### 2 share with us. We are here to listen, we are open to 

### 3 what you have to say, and we will turn it over to 

### 4 you-all. 

### 5 MR. STOLLER: Okay. I would like to give a 

### 6 little quick overview of our company so that the names 

### 7 aren't confusing. 

### 8 Danbury AeroSpace is the parent company and 

### 9 we reorganized about five years ago to represent the 

### 10 different units of the FAA that influence different 

### 11areas of our business. 

### 12 Airmotive Engineering Corporation is the 

### 13 design and manufacturing group that designs the 

### 14 components, holds the FAA approvals. 

### 15 Precision Machine Air Parts does the 

### 16 manufacturing of many of the components, the large 

### 17 machined items we do in-house. 

### 18 EC Services is a FAA-approved repair 

### 19 station. 

### 20 And then Engine Components International is 

### 21the company that faces the customers and interfaces 

### 22 with and sells the products and distributes them to the 

### 23 market. 

### 24 Today we are here to talk about cylinders, 

### 25 but we want to show you just sort of all the otherJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 6 1 components that we manufacture. We hold over 2,000 

### 2 FAA-approved parts through 64 different PMA 

### 3 supplements. We also have numerous STCs and are -- now 

### 4 that we have all the parts to make a complete engine, 

### 5 we are pursuing a type certificate. 

### 6 Our engineering and design and testing 

### 7 expertise has been relied upon by such research 

### 8 institutions like Baylor University, Southwest Research 

### 9 Institute in San Antonio and ConocoPhillips. 

### 10 I'd like to give a little overview of the 

### 11agenda. We have a lot of items we would like to go 

### 12 over today. 

### 13 First, we would like to make our key 

### 14 points, then our objectives for this meeting. We would 

### 15 like to go over and summarize a meeting we had last 

### 16 week with the NTSB. We'd like to give you some 

### 17 background on the situation, how we got to this point 

### 18 where we are today. We'd like to share our research on 

### 19 the industry-wide failure history of cylinders. 

### 20 There's further testing we've done. We 

### 21have now accomplished testing that would allow us to 

### 22 present a cylinder safety program that we would like to 

### 23 give for consideration. Then, more recently, we've 

### 24 done finite element analysis on the critical areas of 

### 25 this part and would like to share that with you. ThenJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 7 1 we want to go over some of the statistical analysis 

### 2 that's been done on the parts, and then we'd like to 

### 3 discuss what we think are industry consequences of an 

### 4 NPRM on this particular part and then we would like to 

### 5 have some time at the end for discussions and 

### 6 resolution. 

### 7 MR. GARVENS: Shall we talk about the 

### 8 binders and all? Have we passed them out? 

### 9 MR. STOLLER: Yes. 

### 10 MR. DENTON: Yes. We've passed out some 

### 11binders with supporting documentation. I have some 

### 12 here and some more available with these slides with 

### 13 some notes. If anyone would like some, there's some 

### 14 extra here. 

### 15 MR. GARVENS: So under tab 1 are the slides 

### 16 if you want to take notes. 

### 17 MS. COX: Is there any proprietary 

### 18 information in the binder? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Except that my presentation has 

### 20 been updated considerably since then. 

### 21MR. GARVENS: Fran asked if there's any 

### 22 proprietary data in the binder that we need to be 

### 23 concerned about. 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: Yes, there is some proprietary. 

### 25 The engineering report in there is proprietary data andJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 8 1 we have so -- we have identified it as such. 

### 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What tab was that, 

### 3 Jimmy? 

### 4 MR. STOLLER: One. Well, it's a 

### 5 presentation. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Yeah, I -- I'm sorry. I don't 

### 7 have a notebook in front of me. I don't know what tab 

### 8 that would be. 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: Looks like it's 22. Jimmy, 

### 10 look under 22. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: This is the wrong one. 

### 12 MR. GARVENS: Is it this? 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Yes. That is right. Under 22. 

### 14 MR. DENTON: Ready? 

### 15 MR. STOLLER: Yes. Next slide. 

### 16 I'd like to go over some key points to 

### 17 contemplate as we go through our various presentations. 

### 18 The first is that there have been no 

### 19 fatalities, no injuries and no reported accidents 

### 20 resulting from newly manufactured TITAN replacement 

### 21cylinders for 520/550 series Continental engines. 

### 22 The design of the AEC cylinders exceeds the 

### 23 FAA airworthiness standards. 

### 24 The manufacture of AEC cylinders is within 

### 25 the design parameters that have been approved.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 9 1It is our belief through testing that the 

### 2operating environment is the cause of the failures. 

### 3Our cylinders are safe when operating 

### 4within the limits of the design parameters of the 

### 5engines. 

### 6We believe that field replacement of 

### 7cylinders would cause significant safety risks. 

### 8Our research has shown that head barrel 

### 9separations are an industry-wide issue; again, caused 

### 10by adverse operating conditions. 

### 11Any questions or comments at this point? 

### 12Next we would like to outline our 

### 13objectives for the meeting. 

### 14We are here to prevent an unwarranted 

### 15action on AEC 520 TITAN cylinders; to prevent 

### 16unnecessary safety risks caused by such unwarranted 

### 17action. 

### 18We are here to demonstrate that the root 

### 19cause of the head barrel separation is adverse 

### 20operating conditions. 

### 21We are going to establish that the design 

### 22and manufacture of AEC cylinders exceeds FAA 

### 23airworthiness standards and that there is no basis for 

### 24removal of AEC cylinders from the field. 

### 25On February 7th, we made a similarJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 10 1 presentation - with not as much detail as we will go 

### 2 over today - with the NTSB. 

### 3 They agreed that A-12-7, Safety 

### 4 Recommendation A-12-7 was written prior to the testing 

### 5 and the results indicating root cause as the operating 

### 6 conditions. 

### 7 The NTSB has agreed that there have been no 

### 8 fatalities as a result of the head barrel separations 

### 9 of new TITAN 520 cylinders. 

### 10 They agreed that removal of AEC cylinders 

### 11from the field prior to TBO was unwarranted. 

### 12 They agreed to a reduction of scope of the 

### 13 Safety Recommendation A-12-7. 

### 14 And the NTSB suggested that the best path 

### 15 to reducing the scope of A-12-7 is for the FAA to 

### 16 propose an alternative. 

### 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That meeting on 

### 18 February 7th was with Clint and Derek. Anybody else 

### 19 there? 

### 20 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Yes. Several other 

### 21people from the NTSB were involved, including the upper 

### 22 management for the Office of Aviation Safety, right. 

### 23 MR. GARVENS: Right. So the Director of 

### 24 Office of Aviation Safety, John DeLisi, was there and 

### 25 he sort of ran the meeting. There were some otherJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 11 1 people, the Director of Communications. 

### 2 MR. DENTON: Thomas Zoeller. 

### 3 MR. GARVENS: Yes, Thomas Zoeller. 

### 4 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Yes, and Deputy Director 

### 5 of Research and Engineering. There was myself. There 

### 6 was -- 

### 7 MR. GARVENS: Carolyn Deforge. 

### 8 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Carolyn Deforge who is my 

### 9 immediate boss. His boss. 

### 10 MR. GARVENS: James Ritter. 

### 11MR. CROOKSHANKS: Yes. So there was a 

### 12 bunch of people there. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: And Michael Fox. 

### 14 MR. DENTON: It was originally scheduled 

### 15 with the chairman -- 

### 16 MR. GARVENS: That's right. 

### 17 MR. DENTON: -- then and she had to -- 

### 18 MR. GARVENS: Work on batteries. 

### 19 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Yes. 

### 20 MR. GARVENS: Change battery in her plane. 

### 21MR. THOMPSON: Clint, is that an accurate 

### 22 summary? 

### 23 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Yes. All those people 

### 24 were there. 

### 25 MR. MAGUIRE: Pardon me. Will you explainJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 12 1 later the term regarding the scope should be reduced, 

### 2 or would you explain it now? 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: We're going to talk about what 

### 4 we propose in a later presentation, Wayne, if that's 

### 5 all right. 

### 6 MR. GARVENS: I think your question was 

### 7 more in terms of our summary as a meeting, how Clint 

### 8 felt about that, or -- I was just wondering if he 

### 9 answered your question. 

### 10 MR. MAGUIRE: It's answered. 

### 11MR. DENTON: All right. I'll move on. So 

### 12 I wanted to go into just a bit of a situation 

### 13 background. 

### 14 ACE has done extensive research in the FAA 

### 15 Service Difficulty Report database. We have found that 

### 16 about 80 percent of these reports on piston engine 

### 17 parts are related to cylinders. 

### 18 Cylinders are exposed to severe temperature 

### 19 cycles even when operated within limits. They are 

### 20 exposed to subzero temperatures, to combustion 

### 21temperatures over 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The 

### 22 cylinder's combustion chamber can experience combustion 

### 23 pressures over 1,000 psi. Since these cylinders are 

### 24 air cooled, there is an uneven and inconsistent cooling 

### 25 environment.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 13 1 The head-to-barrel interface is a 

### 2 mechanically complex system that includes a cast 

### 3 aluminum head and a forged steel barrel, and, let's 

### 4 see, moving on, the FAA Service Difficulty Report 

### 5 database search resulted in more than 1200 entries of 

### 6 head-to-barrel separations for Continental-manufactured 

### 7 cylinders. In 2003 -- 

### 8 MR. STOLLER: If you would like to see 

### 9 them -- 

### 10 MR. DENTON: Yes. 

### 11MR. STOLLER: -- we have copies of those 

### 12 here. So we have copies of the current FAA database 

### 13 for Service Difficulty Reports. 

### 14 MR. DENTON: Off the current, the current 

### 15 SDR website. 

### 16 MR. STOLLER: And then we have downloads 

### 17 from the previous site to support that, and we have 

### 18 printouts of all reported Difficulty Reports related to 

### 19 head-barrel separations of any Continental cylinders. 

### 20 MR. SHARON: Did that change any from what 

### 21y'all provided before? You gave us a list of -- 

### 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It was bigger. 

### 23 MR. STOLLER: We've had time to go through 

### 24 every single one of them and we have -- 

### 25 MR. DENTON: And also part --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 14 1 MR. STOLLER: -- a larger list than before. 

### 2 MR. DENTON: Part 2 procedures, you know, 

### 3 we have gone through Part 2 procedures, so it has 

### 4 actually been expanded. 

### 5 MR. THOMPSON: Do you have a list of your 

### 6 queries that you ran on this? 

### 7 MR. DENTON: Yes. Don't have it with us, 

### 8 but I do have a list. 

### 9 MR. THOMPSON: Is that something you can 

### 10 provide to us? 

### 11MR. DENTON: Yes, I can get someone working 

### 12 on that this afternoon. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Now, the only difficulty is the 

### 14 older data was provided to us by Benny Beets, and maybe 

### 15 he could resurrect it, but I -- I certainly can't. 

### 16 I've tried. 

### 17 MR. THOMPSON: We have a current database 

### 18 on it that goes back to about '93. 

### 19 MR. DENTON: And what I have also got is I 

### 20 have also got a spreadsheet that basically has all of 

### 21the control numbers so you could actually -- we -- you 

### 22 know, you could reference all the control numbers and 

### 23 then, you know, you could enter the control number in, 

### 24 find the individual entry and then, you know, it could 

### 25 -- all of that can be verified and vetted.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 15 1 MR. STOLLER: And these copies were made to 

### 2 be left here. 

### 3 MS. COX: What time frame is this for each 

### 4 of these? 

### 5 MR. DENTON: We've gotten -- so we've 

### 6 gotten -- the next slide actually goes through a plot. 

### 7 So it goes from 1974 to current. So the old database 

### 8 goes from 1974 to 2003 -- or excuse me, 2002, and the 

### 9 new database we have searched from two thousand and -- 

### 10 the end of 2002 to current. So as of yesterday. We 

### 11have data up to yesterday in that binder. So that's 

### 12 actually a plot of what is in that binder. 

### 13 The blue line is the Continental 

### 14 head-barrel separations and the red line is AEC 

### 15 head-barrel separations. So FAA and AEC data show less 

### 16 than 40 AEC new TITAN 520 cylinder head-to-barrel 

### 17 separations. 

### 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Did you correlate 

### 19 any of that data that you have there with previous ADEs 

### 20 that have been done on various cylinders -- and steps 

### 21to correct those? 

### 22 MR. DENTON: There have been -- 

### 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- steps to correct 

### 24 those? 

### 25 MR. DENTON: There have been no ADEsJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 16 1 addressing head-barrel separations on Continental 

### 2 cylinders. 

### 3 MR. GILLESPIE: Continental manufactured 

### 4 cylinders. 

### 5 MR. DENTON: Continental manufactured 

### 6 cylinders. 

### 7 MR. PRIESTER: When was the initial 

### 8 introduction, what year were the first ECI 520/550's 

### 9 introduced to the field? 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: Well, the original ones were 

### 11introduced in 1999 after the approval in 1998, and but 

### 12 we changed to the TITAN - that was the classic cast 

### 13 cylinders - and we produced them until about 2002, 

### 14 toward the end of 2002, and the TITAN cylinder then 

### 15 came in to -- there was an ADE on the classic cast 

### 16 cylinders. 

### 17 MR. PRIESTER: But 1998 would mark the 

### 18 beginning of ECI's venture into this? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: That's correct. 

### 20 MR. PRIESTER: 1998. 

### 21MR. TUBBS: Yeah. The program was 

### 22 conducted in '96, '97 and early '98. Completed in '98. 

### 23 MR. PRIESTER: So they started going into 

### 24 the field in '99? 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: Yes.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 17 1 MR. PRIESTER: Approval late '98 and 

### 2 then -- 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Took a while to get them in 

### 4 production. 

### 5 MR. PRIESTER: Okay. Thank you. 

### 6 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Is this data just SDR 

### 7 reports? 

### 8 MR. DENTON: That's correct. 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Just. That's all it is. 

### 10 MR. DENTON: That is all it is. 

### 11MR. CROOKSHANKS: Okay. 

### 12 MR. DENTON: So no new AEC TITAN cylinder 

### 13 manufactured after June 2008 has experienced a 

### 14 head-barrel separation, and no head-barrel separation 

### 15 on new AEC TITAN cylinders have been reported since 

### 16 August 2011. 

### 17 AEC's experience with head-barrel 

### 18 separations is that they are not categorically a 

### 19 catastrophic engine failure. There have been zero 

### 20 fatalities, zero incident -- or zero accidents and zero 

### 21injuries as a result of newly manufactured TITAN 

### 22 520/550 cylinders. 

### 23 A head-to-barrel separation results in 

### 24 approximately a 20% loss in engine power. This loss of 

### 25 power allows sufficient power to land safely.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 18 1 Now I am going to hand it over to Jimmy. I 

### 2 guess we'll go over this slide, and then I'm going to 

### 3 jump out and into another presentation from Jimmy. 

### 4 MR. GARVENS: Do you have any questions on 

### 5 the background situation? Any further clarifications? 

### 6 MR. THOMPSON: And you said the SDR had 

### 7 a -- went up through when? 

### 8 MR. DENTON: It's from 1974 to current. 

### 9 MR. THOMPSON: To current as in? 

### 10 MR. DENTON: Yesterday. 

### 11MR. THOMPSON: Yesterday. Okay. 

### 12 MR. DENTON: Jimmy. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Yes. Can you hit the -- 

### 14 MR. DENTON: Are you ready? Okay. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: Oh yeah. I'm ready. 

### 16 MR. DENTON: I didn't know if you wanted to 

### 17 go over this slide first. 

### 18 MR. TUBBS: I'm ready. 

### 19 MR. DENTON: Okay. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: I need a cue to start with. 

### 21Okay. What I would like to do is go over 

### 22 the program that we have been working on from the 

### 23 technical perspective to identify the root cause of the 

### 24 cylinder head separation and then to look at how that 

### 25 reflects in the real world out with these thingsJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 19 1operating in the field. 

### 2MR. PRIESTER: Where are you now, Jimmy? 

### 3MR. TUBBS: I'm sorry? 

### 4MR. PRIESTER: Oh, it looks like it's tab 

### 514? Is that where you are? 

### 6MR. TUBBS: Yes. Now -- 

### 7MR. GARVENS: They won't match. 

### 8MR. TUBBS: They will not match, Jurgen. 

### 9MR. PRIESTER: Oh. 

### 10MR. TUBBS: And, I'm sorry, because I 

### 11worked on some of this, went in last night at about 

### 12midnight. So -- so let's -- 

### 13MR. GARVENS: And we can give -- 

### 14MR. TUBBS: We're going to give -- 

### 15MR. DENTON: -- an updated-- 

### 16MR. TUBBS: We're going to give you an 

### 17updated version of this. 

### 18All right. Who is turning the page? 

### 19Okay. The cylinders that we have produced 

### 20since that 2002, which we started the Oberdorfer 

### 21castings and also what we call the TITAN cylinder, we 

### 22produced about 27,000 of those through June of 2008. 

### 23Of that number, there were 24 of them that had the 

### 24head-barrel separation caused by the thread fatigue. 

### 25There were seven of those that were produced afterJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 20 1 2005. 

### 2 Now, I've limited this to just those that 

### 3 have experienced the thread fatigue failure issue that 

### 4 we have been working on. 

### 5 There are two other types of failures, 

### 6 which is the head separation at the top of the barrel. 

### 7 We addressed that in 2004, if I recall the number 

### 8 right, and -- by increasing the fillet radius, and we 

### 9 have had no more failures of cylinders produced since 

### 10 that time with that particular failure. 

### 11The second one is one that is an unusual 

### 12 and it causes us to ponder a bit because that is a 

### 13 failure where the cylinder head just expands rapidly 

### 14 enough that the head comes off of the barrel without 

### 15 either stripping, or in some cases partially stripping 

### 16 the threads, but in some cases has actually come off of 

### 17 the barrel with no damage to the threads. And that has 

### 18 to be very, very hot, and in fact we've got -- we've 

### 19 got one of those cylinders here. We brought the one I 

### 20 believe that shows partially stripped threads where it 

### 21de-coupled, and then as it cocked it stripped out some 

### 22 of the threads but the others are not stripped. 

### 23 MR. PRIESTER: Jimmy, how many occurrences 

### 24 of that particular failure mode do we know of? 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: I believe that I -- that weJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 21 1 have three of those. 

### 2 MR. PRIESTER: Matt, do we have those on 

### 3 our list? 

### 4 MR. THOMPSON: I'd have to look. 

### 5 MR. PRIESTER: That's a different failure 

### 6 mode that we haven't really been -- 

### 7 MR. STOLLER: It's a different situation, 

### 8 but what it shows is how hot a cylinder can get. In 

### 9 operation, it can get hot enough to where the aluminum 

### 10 can expand so much, that the head just completely slips 

### 11in two. And that can just be really mathematically -- 

### 12 MR. GARVENS: And this cylinder -- this 

### 13 cylinder still has the same interference tolerance at 

### 14 design and assembly. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 16 MR. NASH: Do you have an estimate of the 

### 17 temperature the cylinder head has to get to to make up 

### 18 that -- 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Well, we -- we put them 

### 20 together at 650. 

### 21MR. NASH: Yes, that's why I'm asking the 

### 22 question. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: That -- you've got -- 

### 24 MR. STOLLER: So at 650 it would unscrew, 

### 25 but it can't unscrew with the --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 22 1 MR. NASH: Right. 

### 2 MR. GARVENS: So it's got to get -- 

### 3 MR. NASH: So how hot does it get -- 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 5 MR. NASH: -- to sort of just -- 

### 6 MR. GARVENS: Right. 

### 7 MR. NASH: -- pop off the sides? 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: Probably 700 degrees or so. 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: But we don't have the -- when 

### 10 we assemble it, we don't have the combustion pressures. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 12 MR. GARVENS: With combustion pressures, 

### 13 probably 650. 

### 14 MR. NASH: Yeah, but to -- 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: So you haven't done the 

### 16 testing -- 

### 17 MR. NASH: -- to leave the barrel 

### 18 without -- 

### 19 MR. GILLESPIE: -- for that, thought, 

### 20 right? 

### 21MR. TUBBS: No, we have not. 

### 22 MR. GILLESPIE: So you did not -- 

### 23 MR. GARVENS: No, we have not tested for 

### 24 that. 

### 25 MR. GILLESPIE: You're not here to --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 23 1 MR. TUBBS: No. 

### 2 MR. NASH: Yeah. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: It's just -- it's a -- 

### 4 MR. GARVENS: We know that it had to get to 

### 5 extreme temperatures to -- for this to happen. 

### 6 MR. GILLESPIE: It's beyond anything you 

### 7 tested -- 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: That's right. 

### 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- because you have 

### 10 not had that occur in any of your tests. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: We have not been able to 

### 12 achieve that in the test cells, and we have -- we have 

### 13 run engines up to 600 degrees. In fact, the engine 

### 14 that we still have, the instrumented engine, it has 

### 15 been run quite a while at 600. Well, between 580 and 

### 16 600 degrees. 

### 17 MR. VICKERS: Jimmy, other than the 

### 18 separation, is that showing any other signs of thermal 

### 19 stress? Do you see anything? 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Not really. We haven't seen 

### 21a -- you know, I would expect to see some detonation 

### 22 evidence, I would expect to see maybe some 

### 23 overtemperature in the spark plugs, but it happened so 

### 24 fast, that just -- 

### 25 MR. STOLLER: Yes, it cannot run very longJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 24 1 at that temperature. 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 3 MR. STOLLER: So. 

### 4 MR. PRIESTER: Jimmy, again, did I hear you 

### 5 correctly that you would -- you would estimate that in 

### 6 order for that cylinder, that barrel to fall out of the 

### 7 head, you're saying that this particular cylinder we 

### 8 are looking at probably was operated at 700 degrees? 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Between six -- between 650 and 

### 10 700 degrees for a short time frame. Jurgen, unless you 

### 11can come up with a theory that tells me that that 

### 12 barrel was cooled rapidly, you know, you have to -- 

### 13 heat is what is generated and so -- 

### 14 MR. PRIESTER: Have you, Jimmy, have you 

### 15 ever seen data from the field where a CHT has gotten up 

### 16 to 700 degrees? 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Oh, we've seen -- we've got one 

### 18 recorded, I don't -- I probably have it on my computer, 

### 19 that was provided to us by Mike Busch, where they had a 

### 20 loose spark plug and it went to I think 635 or a little 

### 21more, but it -- it went into some other problems. But 

### 22 it -- a loose spark plug or cracked insulator can cause 

### 23 that real quick. 

### 24 MR. GARVENS: Like how quick? 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: The one that we have recordedJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 25 1 data on was increasing at 2.8 degrees per second on an 

### 2 average. 

### 3 MR. PRIESTER: That was the cylinder? 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: Well, no, I don't know about 

### 5 this one. This one just came -- came in to us with a 

### 6 warranty, and when we got it and pulled it apart -- the 

### 7 guy said the -- the head came off. So we -- 

### 8 MR. PRIESTER: Did you ask the operator if 

### 9 they had a -- a digital system on board the aircraft 

### 10 that would have recorded the temperatures and 

### 11exceedances for this event? 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: Not for this one. 

### 13 MR. PRIESTER: Again, after -- 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Hindsight is really good. 

### 15 MR. PRIESTER: What's that? 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: Hindsight would -- in hindsight 

### 17 now today, we would be ask -- that's a part of the 

### 18 forms that our people use to assess these today. But 

### 19 in the day that this happened we had not done that. 

### 20 MS. COX: Out of curiosity, what is the 

### 21interference fit on this particular cylinder? 

### 22 MR. GARVENS: It's 11 to 12. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: I think it's 11 to 12, 

### 24 somewhere right in there. 

### 25 MR. STOLLER: It was verified yesterday.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 26 1 MR. TUBBS: Yeah, it was verified. 

### 2 MR. DENTON: Yes, we checked it. 

### 3 MR. STOLLER: Remeasured. 

### 4 MR. HARMON: The other two that failed in 

### 5 the same mode, do you know what the interference fit 

### 6 there was? 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: I don't know. I'm sorry. 

### 8 MR. STOLLER: We verified -- I don't have 

### 9 the numbers on them, but we verified that they were 

### 10 within tolerances, that it was not a manufacturing -- 

### 11MR. PRIESTER: When you say "11 to 12," are 

### 12 you saying 11 for the shrink band and 12 for the 

### 13 thread? 

### 14 MR. GARVENS: We are talking about a 

### 15 90-degree angles. It's out of round. 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: Right, yeah. Right. But in 

### 17 both the straight band and the thread area, yes. 

### 18 MR. PRIESTER: Both were at -- 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 20 MR. PRIESTER: -- 11 -- between 11 and 12. 

### 21MR. TUBBS: Yes, as well as they could 

### 22 measure this. 

### 23 MR. GARVENS: The threads had some -- the 

### 24 threads get distorted, you know. 

### 25 MR. PRIESTER: I was going to say, can youJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 27 1 measure accurately the interference fit after they've 

### 2 already been assembled and operated at high 

### 3 temperatures? 

### 4 MR. STOLLER: We do do that regularly, 

### 5 that's part of our research. So we unscrew cylinders 

### 6 that come into the repair station and we measure them. 

### 7 MR. PRIESTER: Compare it to the when they 

### 8 left originally? 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: Do we have the -- do we have 

### 10 the travel card on that? 

### 11MR. TUBBS: We don't on this one, I don't 

### 12 believe. 

### 13 MR. STOLLER: Now, this one we compared to 

### 14 the original data. Now, the repair station we're 

### 15 repairing Continental cylinders, so we measure every 

### 16 Continental cylinder that comes into the repair station 

### 17 to ensure that we have proper interference when we 

### 18 reassemble it. 

### 19 MR. PRIESTER: And the interference fit for 

### 20 this one was unchanged from the time of manufacture 

### 21after operation? 

### 22 MR. STOLLER: Correct. 

### 23 MR. PRIESTER: It was identical? 

### 24 MR. STOLLER: Minimally different. 

### 25 MR. PRIESTER: So -- okay.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 28 1 MR. GARVENS: And theoretically, if 

### 2 anything happened, you would lose, you know, you would 

### 3 have expected it to have lost some interference. 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 5 MR. GILLESPIE: To have grown rather 

### 6 than -- 

### 7 MR. GARVENS: Right. 

### 8 MR. GILLESPIE: It's not going to shrink. 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: Right. 

### 10 MR. GILLESPIE: And there's no other 

### 11geometric differences in this head than in a standard 

### 12 head produced per the drawing. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: No. No. Now, this cylinder by 

### 14 part number and serial number I believe is a part of 

### 15 the FAA database related to head-barrel separations, so 

### 16 this was one of those that we pulled out of that group 

### 17 so you should find this on your database. 

### 18 MR. THOMPSON: Now, what serial numbers are 

### 19 these? Are they all across the range or are they 

### 20 lumped closer together for these three failures? 

### 21MR. TUBBS: I'm going to have to get back 

### 22 with you on that. I don't know. I'm sorry. 

### 23 MR. THOMPSON: Can you look at the serial 

### 24 number on that one? 

### 25 MR. STOLLER: 19000.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 29 1 MR. THOMPSON: 19000. 

### 2 MR. GARVENS: Anybody want to hold it? 

### 3 It's greasy. 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: It's a little -- it's a little 

### 5 dirty, but -- 

### 6 MR. GARVENS: I'm just trying to get it off 

### 7 of my desk. 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: All right. Just to give you a 

### 9 little bit of an overview of the changes that we have 

### 10 made in our continuous improvement program since we 

### 11obtained our FAA approvals back in -- and we started 

### 12 producing them with the -- under the TITAN brand which 

### 13 were the Oberdorfer castings, and in the FAA database 

### 14 there were four of those cylinders that were prior to 

### 15 7708, which means that those were subject to our 

### 16 Mandatory Service Bulletin 04-1 which was removal of 

### 17 those. 

### 18 And then MSB 06-2 started -- the 7708 was 

### 19 in early January 2003. We -- of the cylinders made in 

### 20 2003, we had three of those that failed. I don't 

### 21remember exactly which the failure types were. I 

### 22 believe, though, that one or two of those were the top 

### 23 of the dome where it -- where it failed at the barrel 

### 24 stop at the top of the barrel, which was corrected with 

### 25 the fillet change in 2004.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 30 1 And then 2004 was the bad year. 18 

### 2 cylinders made in 2004 failed. And then six of the 

### 3 cylinders in 2003 and 2004 were at the dome radius, not 

### 4 at the threads. 

### 5 Now, of the cylinders that we are talking 

### 6 about here, that includes all modes of failure, not 

### 7 just the -- not just the fatigue. 

### 8 In January of 2005, and actually 

### 9 transitioning to that in December of 2004, we 

### 10 transitioned to a new manufacturing facility, which I 

### 11will show you something on in a few minutes, and -- but 

### 12 there were only two failures, two cylinders made in 

### 13 2005 that have failed, and both of them were decoupled, 

### 14 in effect. So that very -- there right there, 19000 

### 15 serial number, that's probably one of those. 

### 16 The end of MSB 06-2, there were -- 18 of 

### 17 the failed cylinders would have been right in at prior 

### 18 to that time frame. 

### 19 We increased the exhaust wall and dome 

### 20 fillets in early 2006. I think, Pete, if you recall we 

### 21had quite a number of meetings and things on that. So 

### 22 we increased that wall thickness at that time. 

### 23 And we have all of the assembly data 

### 24 in-house today from cylinders made from serial number 

### 25 32884 forward, so we have -- we have the assemblyJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 31 1 parameters for all of the cylinders back to that time 

### 2 frame. 

### 3 And, let's see, the next major thing that 

### 4 we did was the Allison seat that was introduced in 

### 5 early of two -- early 2008, and that doesn't seem like 

### 6 a big change but it actually is a fairly significant 

### 7 change because the Allison style seat has almost an 

### 8 eighth of an inch added material to the boss. It's got 

### 9 a thin section that's the interference fit area, and in 

### 10 the critical area it adds quite a bit of material. 

### 11And then we increased the interference 

### 12 again, interference fits, in October of 2009. I think 

### 13 the drawing change was dated quite a bit earlier than 

### 14 that, but then the change was approved and we started 

### 15 implementing it in October of 2009. 

### 16 Back a little bit of the history. The AEC 

### 17 cylinders were designed from Continental cylinders, 

### 18 they were reverse engineered, and we did that by taking 

### 19 the cylinders and sec -- the older cylinders and 

### 20 sectioning them and using the cross-sections to 

### 21generate our cross-sections in the data. 

### 22 During our certification program, one of 

### 23 the issues, one of the things that we are required to 

### 24 do is to provide a field history assessment, and at 

### 25 that time we acknowledged, we related that there wereJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 32 1 head-barrel separations and we were going to address 

### 2 that as much as we could by changing the heat treat to 

### 3 go to a -- the pure AMS 4220 configuration. 

### 4 At that time, and again I don't have this 

### 5 documented, but anecdotally the OEM cylinders were 

### 6 being produced from the A242 T55 heat treat condition, 

### 7 which was as cast and then aged to bring them to the 

### 8 T55. We knew that the OEM was changing to the T75 

### 9 condition at about that time, and of course one of the 

### 10 reasons we know, we were using the same vendors. So we 

### 11all went to the T75 condition, which is better from 

### 12 ductility and also from yield and tensile properties. 

### 13 MR. PRIESTER: Jimmy, you said that you 

### 14 reverse engineered them by cutting them up and doing 

### 15 that. Did you also reverse engineer the interference 

### 16 fit from the TCM cylinders? 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Actually, a lot of that work 

### 18 had been done a long time before, Jurgen. The barrels 

### 19 for those cylinders were approved as a PMA part for a 

### 20 re-barrelling process by the Airmotive Engineering 

### 21Corporation prior to the time that Engine Components 

### 22 bought them. They actually had those approvals back in 

### 23 the '70s. 

### 24 MR. PRIESTER: For the barrel? 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: For the barrels. And theJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 33 1 assembly. So we had all of their engineering data from 

### 2 that time frame. 

### 3 MR. PRIESTER: AEC data. 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: The AEC data. 

### 5 MR. PRIESTER: Well, but my question was, 

### 6 when you redesigned the cylinders, did you also 

### 7 redesign the interference fit from the OEM? 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: No. We did not. We did not 

### 9 change it from the approvals that we had, but we 

### 10 augmented that by -- in the time frame of in the 1980s, 

### 11we -- we measured more than a thousand Continental 

### 12 cylinders that we disassembled and measured the seal 

### 13 bands and threads to determine the interference, and we 

### 14 have that data and plotted that data. And so that 

### 15 played a part in our -- 

### 16 MR. MAGUIRE: Jimmy, excuse me. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Yes, sir. 

### 18 MR. MAGUIRE: Would you repeat that, 

### 19 please? 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Sure. 

### 21During the 1980s time frame we were 

### 22 manufacturing new cylinder barrels and we were also 

### 23 overhauling cylinders by disassembling them, and a part 

### 24 of that was to measure the seal band and the threads on 

### 25 both the head and the barrel at the disassembly processJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 34 1 and record that data. And so we -- we did that and we 

### 2 still have that data today. 

### 3 MR. HAKALA: Now, was that when the company 

### 4 was in Dallas, was it Airmotive Engineering? 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: Airmotive Engineering was in 

### 6 Directors Row in Dallas until 1982 or '81 or '82 time 

### 7 frame, and but they had the FAA approval. But then 

### 8 when we bought the company and brought it to San 

### 9 Antonio, then we were disassembling the cylinders for 

### 10 new barrels and we were measuring each and every one 

### 11that we took apart, and we did record that data. 

### 12 Now, quite frankly, they had a lower 

### 13 interference bit than our design tolerances. 

### 14 MR. PRIESTER: What was the -- what was the 

### 15 interference fit that you determined them to have? 

### 16 Ballpark. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Ballpark. 

### 18 MR. PRIESTER: Yeah. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: 5-thousandths on the seal band 

### 20 and zero to 3-thousandths on the thread. 

### 21MR. PRIESTER: .005. 

### 22 MR. TUBBS: And it varies. But I've got 

### 23 that data plotted. 

### 24 MR. GARVENS: This is on the low end. 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: I haven't looked at it inJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 35 1several years. But I think it's interesting -- by the 

### 2way I provided this data to the chief engineer from 

### 3Continental Motors and -- and I am aware of changes 

### 4that they made in their processing at that time. 

### 5MR. PRIESTER: And these cylinders were 

### 6from what vintage? 

### 7MR. TUBBS: Oh, they were the cylinders 

### 8from the start of the 520 engines until -- up until 

### 9the '80s. 

### 10MR. PRIESTER: So from when to when? When 

### 11did they -- '70s, or is it before? When did they -- 

### 12MR. TUBBS: I think the -- the 520 was 

### 13probably certificated in the early '60s, but I can't 

### 14be -- I'm just guessing. I shouldn't -- I shouldn't 

### 15say. 

### 16MR. PRIESTER: Okay. But maybe '60s 

### 17to '80s. 

### 18MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 19So any of this information is available if 

### 20anybody wants to look at it. 

### 21Again, just reiterating that the Service 

### 22Difficulty Reports which have been verified, we've had 

### 23a team of people going through the FAA Service 

### 24Difficulty Reports and if there was anything that was 

### 25questionable they took it out. Actually we had -- weJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 36 1had two different numbers of separations -- three 

### 2different numbers. We first thought they were about 

### 32,000, but we -- in reviewing them we couldn't be 

### 4certain so we brought that down to 1700, I believe. 

### 5But the final number, which has been verified, are 

### 6around 1240 of those cylinders. 

### 7MR. PRIESTER: Jimmy, I'm sorry, one more 

### 8question on this before you leave it. 

### 9You're saying that you got your first 

### 10initial approval for this around '98 and went into -- 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 12MR. PRIESTER: -- production in '99. And 

### 13you said that the data on the seal bands for the TCM 

### 14was between the '60s and the '80s. There's about -- 

### 15about a decade in between there. In 1998, I think you 

### 16-- I just wanted to make sure. You said you used 

### 17whatever was already there from the barrel stuff that 

### 18had been going on since the '70s by AEC, but in 1998 

### 19did you, when you certified -- the ECI cylinders were 

### 20initially PMA'd, did you go back and re-do any of 

### 21the -- take a, at that time what would have been a 

### 22current model TCM cylinder, cut it up and see if the 

### 23data that you initially had used from the '70s was 

### 24still valid? 

### 25MR. TUBBS: I ... oh.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 37 1 MR. NASH: Excuse me, Jimmy. 

### 2 MR. PRIESTER: Or did you rely on the -- 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: I just can't remember. I can't 

### 4 remember, to tell you the truth. 

### 5 MR. STOLLER: Do you remember Bob 

### 6 Carlton -- 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: Yeah, I -- 

### 8 MR. STOLLER: -- who was cutting apart the 

### 9 cylinders? 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: Yeah, he was cutting the 

### 11cylinders but what I don't know is the vintage because 

### 12 we were -- we had two different ways of sectioning them 

### 13 where we would section them, you know, take -- put them 

### 14 on a machining center and cut horizontal slices down 

### 15 parallel to the fins, and then later we started doing 

### 16 it the other way around. 

### 17 MR. PRIESTER: I was just trying to see 

### 18 what you used as baseline, what TCM designed and used 

### 19 as a baseline. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: The orig -- the cylinders that 

### 21we used at that time frame, regardless of the -- of the 

### 22 year, I know that they were the cylinders that had the 

### 23 thinner areas around the exhaust ports, a much higher 

### 24 waisted area around the exhaust ports and also around 

### 25 the intake ports and the -- and the spark plugJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 38 1 bosses -- I mean, the injector bosses were recessed 

### 2 fairly far back without any beef around them. So that 

### 3 was the generation of the cylinder that we used, but I 

### 4 think that was fairly current in that time -- in that 

### 5 frame. 

### 6 MR. GARVENS: But also what we are going to 

### 7 see in this presentation is that we have done a lot of 

### 8 further testing and this testing validates that the 

### 9 design that was used in the original design is adequate 

### 10 and airworthy and it works great as long as the engine 

### 11is operated within its design limits. So we've learned 

### 12 more since then and it all validates what we did at the 

### 13 beginning. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: In addition, during that time 

### 15 frame in 1997 and '98 we were just getting the initial 

### 16 part of the AC33.19-1. That was just coming out. And 

### 17 so there was a lot of discussion. We wrote issue 

### 18 papers back and forth about whether we needed to do 

### 19 durability testing in addition to the -- to the part 

### 20 33.49 testing. And after a lot of discussion, we did 

### 21decide that the better part of valor was to do that 

### 22 testing and so the certification testing actually does 

### 23 include a durability test that was very similar. 

### 24 33.19-1 had not been published but we had draft copies, 

### 25 and so we actually did the durability testing also, inJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 39 1 addition to the endurance test. 

### 2 MR. PRIESTER: So the initial ECI PMA 

### 3 design was run through the 400 -- 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: Absolutely. 

### 5 MR. PRIESTER: -- 400 hours? 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Yes. I'm sorry, I -- 

### 7 MR. MAGUIRE: No, no. I'm having trouble 

### 8 finding the chart you showed before this that shows 

### 9 manufacturing vintages and the failures associated with 

### 10 those vintages. 

### 11MR. STOLLER: It's page 10, I believe of 

### 12 the presentation, if yours are numbered. 

### 13 MR. GARVENS: In tab 14? 

### 14 MR. STOLLER: No. 

### 15 MR. GARVENS: Oh. Do you mean the graph or 

### 16 the chart that was hard to read? 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Oh, I keep trying to -- 

### 18 MR. MAGUIRE: That was hard to read. 

### 19 MR. GARVENS: I'll see if I can find it. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: No, no, it's the one -- it's 

### 21the timeline. 

### 22 MR. GARVENS: It's the sideways. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: And I -- it should be in there. 

### 24 MR. GARVENS: You know what that's in, 

### 25 that's in the presentation that you gave in November --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 40 1 MR. TUBBS: Right. Right. 

### 2 MR. GARVENS: -- to the NTSB. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: That is correct. 

### 4 MR. GARVENS: I'm not sure if that's in 

### 5 there. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: I don't know, but I will give 

### 7 you a copy of the presentation that we have with that 

### 8 data in so it you can see it, and then if we need to go 

### 9 back to it to review it and go to any of that, we 

### 10 certainly would like to provide that clarification. 

### 11MR. GARVENS: Do you want to look at it 

### 12 some more? 

### 13 MR. MAGUIRE: No. 

### 14 MR. GARVENS: See it more closely. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: Yes, it's a little hard to see. 

### 16 And again, this is just showing you again 

### 17 the same thing we did. So we -- so we've looked at 

### 18 that one. 

### 19 MR. GARVENS: There is a, I think on tab 16 

### 20 there is a table of manufacturing changes in your 

### 21binder, and in tab 14 it has the tabulation of the 

### 22 head-barrel separations that have driven this 

### 23 discussion. 

### 24 So, Wayne, on tab 15 is a table of the 

### 25 manufacturing changes, the one just past that. That'sJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 41 1 -- you just had it. 

### 2 MR. MAGUIRE: Yeah. 

### 3 MR. GARVENS: Okay. And then in tab 14 it 

### 4 has the failures. So that graph was kind of a 

### 5 compilation of those two pieces of information. 

### 6 MR. SHARON: In tab 15, that list of barrel 

### 7 separations, which -- the cylinder you had up there 

### 8 where it came apart, which one of those failures is 

### 9 identified on there? 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: I think I can point it out to 

### 11you if it's in there. 

### 12 MR. GARVENS: Well, I think they were 

### 13 removed from that list. 

### 14 MR. DENTON: That is correct. 

### 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. It shouldn't 

### 16 be in there, right? 

### 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But it's in the 

### 18 master list. 

### 19 MR. GARVENS: It's then not in this list. 

### 20 MR. DENTON: It is not in this list. 

### 21MR. MAGUIRE: Not in this list? 

### 22 MR. DENTON: No. 

### 23 MR. GARVENS: Right, because you -- it's 

### 24 all the head-barrel -- 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: Okay, because there were aJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 42 1 couple of those that I think we agreed to not put in 

### 2 the list -- 

### 3 MR. GARVENS: Because there was no cracking 

### 4 failure. 

### 5 MR. THOMPSON: Again, between them, because 

### 6 it was a different mode of failure. 

### 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So those three 

### 8 aren't really any of the ones that we have been talking 

### 9 about. 

### 10 MR. DENTON: That is correct. 

### 11MR. STOLLER: They were in the beginning 

### 12 list that's been pared down. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: None of these are slipoffs. 

### 14 These are just either ridge or -- 

### 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. 

### 16 MR. SHARON: When did y'all get these, or 

### 17 when did you know about the three that actually came 

### 18 apart due to the temp or whatever reason? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: We've seen that over the years 

### 20 occasionally. 

### 21MR. SHARON: I mean, but you've had it for 

### 22 a while, right? 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: Yes. Oh yes. 

### 24 MR. SHARON: In other words -- 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: Oh yes.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 43 1 MR. PRIESTER: So you think there's 

### 2 actually more than three over the years? 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Probably so. I think, Pete, 

### 4 you and I have looked at a couple of these before. 

### 5 MR. HAKALA: Well, I think last summer we 

### 6 talked about one that -- that appeared to -- 

### 7 MR. STOLLER: When you -- when you had the 

### 8 starting list -- 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. 

### 10 MR. STOLLER: -- that we've pared down by 

### 11removing things that might have been a repaired 

### 12 cylinder or a Continental cylinder, it was on the 

### 13 original list that we started with. So it has been 

### 14 on -- 

### 15 MR. HAKALA: Well, we looked at the 

### 16 failures for 2012 and that was on it, but it didn't 

### 17 jibe with -- 

### 18 MR. TUBBS: It wasn't a -- 

### 19 MR. HAKALA: It wasn't a red -- 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: It wasn't a fracture, it wasn't 

### 21a fatigue failure. 

### 22 MR. HAKALA: Yeah, so I think we added two 

### 23 that were actually head separations -- 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 25 MR. HAKALA: -- at the thread.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 44 1 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 2 MR. HAKALA: But we were aware of that, but 

### 3 we just set that one aside because -- 

### 4 MR. STOLLER: And took it off the list. 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 6 MR. HAKALA: It was kind of an oddball. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: It's an oddball, right. But it 

### 8 is illustrative of situations that do happen out there 

### 9 that we have to work with. 

### 10 MR. GILLESPIE: And it's an indication that 

### 11temperatures are going far in excess of what the design 

### 12 parameters were. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Right. Exactly. 

### 14 MR. VICKERS: On that failure, was that 

### 15 just in one of those cylinders, or did any of the other 

### 16 cylinders have any problems? 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: This slip off? 

### 18 MR. VICKERS: Yes. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Bill, I just don't recall. 

### 20 I've looked at the cylinders but, as I'm thinking, I've 

### 21looked at so many cylinders I hate to go back and lead 

### 22 you wrong. 

### 23 MR. GARVENS: But, Jimmy, might you also 

### 24 answer the question that the variation in temperature 

### 25 between cylinders can be --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 45 1MR. TUBBS: Oh yeah. 

### 2MR. GARVENS: -- what? 

### 3MR. TUBBS: Getting -- 

### 4MR. GARVENS: How large? 

### 5MR. DENTON: Hundred -- 

### 6MR. TUBBS: It can be a bunch. We see it 

### 7even on new -- new -- 

### 8MR. DENTON: Fifty to a hundred. 

### 9MR. TUBBS: -- certificated airplanes, 

### 10we've seen well over a hundred degrees CHD difference. 

### 11MR. GARVENS: Which is one of our 

### 12contentions that, you know, single probe measurements 

### 13on one cylinder -- 

### 14MR. GILLESPIE: Is not a -- 

### 15MR. GARVENS: -- is not a good indication 

### 16of anything that's going on in the engine. And if 

### 17you -- 

### 18MR. VICKERS: Were those other cylinders 

### 19kept in service, or were they -- was the whole set 

### 20replaced? 

### 21MR. STOLLER: Don't know. Have to go back 

### 22to the -- 

### 23MR. VICKERS: I mean, to me that would 

### 24be -- 

### 25MR. TUBBS: I can answer those questionsJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 46 1 but I don't have the data with me. 

### 2 MR. VICKERS: To me, that would be a big 

### 3 alarm bell as they get these others out of that -- 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: Oh, absolutely. Every -- we -- 

### 5 MR. VICKERS: If you suspected it over 

### 6 years. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: And quite frankly, Bill, we've 

### 8 had some of these same cylinders come off of the same 

### 9 airplane, two head-barrel separations off the same 

### 10 airplane. And when you have that out of -- 40 total 

### 11out of 27,000 cylinders, that tells you something. 

### 12 MR. GILLESPIE: That was not at the same 

### 13 time, though. Right? 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: No, they were -- in fact -- 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: Separate -- 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: In fact, in one case I believe 

### 17 we have one that the re -- the cylinder that had 

### 18 replaced the one that had the head-barrel separation 

### 19 also had one. Or -- 

### 20 MR. GARVENS: And I think you repeat your 

### 21comment that hindsight -- 

### 22 MR. TUBBS: Oh yeah. 

### 23 MR. GARVENS: What's very clear today was 

### 24 not as clear yesterday. 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: That's right.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 47 1 MR. GILLESPIE: But it seems more 

### 2 indicative of the engine and the engine temperature and 

### 3 the way it's being run rather than the cylinder itself, 

### 4 because that engine had another head blow off. 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: That's right. 

### 6 MR. GILLESPIE: And that head had to be a 

### 7 newer head from a different series. It was not the 

### 8 same -- 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: That's right. You're exactly 

### 10 right. 

### 11I've got to go back in history. We had a 

### 12 meeting at San Antonio back in 2006 and Clint had hair 

### 13 then. 

### 14 MR. CROOKSHANKS: No, I didn't. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: It was longer I thought. 

### 16 MR. CROOKSHANKS: I don't think so. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: And Derek and Clint 

### 18 participated in that meeting with Pete and, let's see, 

### 19 we had Mark Rimasen and quite a number of people and we 

### 20 were -- it was kind of a wide-ranging assessment. We 

### 21were looking especially at some cracks around the 

### 22 exhaust ports and we were looking at several issues, 

### 23 but the head-barrel separation was also a major part of 

### 24 that discussion that we had at the time. And we were 

### 25 not able to identify the root cause for the head-barrelJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 48 1 separations at that time. We could only make 

### 2 suppositions. 

### 3 And one of the guys, and I don't know, one 

### 4 of these three guys here made the observation that we 

### 5 really needed to develop something, a lab-type test to 

### 6 help us identify the root cause, that there was a way 

### 7 to do that if we were clever about it, that would help 

### 8 us to do that. And, yeah, it was -- I know it was you, 

### 9 Derek. It was. So -- because Derek is a big proponent 

### 10 of testing. And so we looked at that and said yes, we 

### 11think it can be -- we talked about it and we had a guy 

### 12 in our office, Bob Carlton said, "I can do that," and 

### 13 after a lot of discussions he was given a budget to go 

### 14 ahead and conduct that. 

### 15 And this is the test facility that we 

### 16 developed back in 2006 and ran a lot of fatigue tests 

### 17 during that time. 

### 18 What happens is that it loads it 

### 19 hydraulically and then cycles the loading from about a 

### 20 zero or a little bit more than zero to up to 1100 psi 

### 21at 10 Hertz and it's in an oven because we ran some 

### 22 tests and we had looked at the temperatures in some 

### 23 Lycoming cylinders. So we said, well, 375 degrees 

### 24 should do the job. So that oven then closes up and we 

### 25 start cycling and it measures the data, we've got plotsJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 49 1 and everything of the cycling and we are able to run it 

### 2 night and day at 10 Hertz, and we got a lot of failures 

### 3 for the Lycoming cylinders. We were able to fail new 

### 4 Lycoming cylinders, our cylinders and other people's 

### 5 cylinders and we got a lot of information on that. And 

### 6 then we used that to increase the interference fits, 

### 7 and after we increased the interference fits on the 

### 8 Lycoming cylinders, we got a minimum of an eight-fold 

### 9 increase to the fatigue life that we could achieve on 

### 10 those cylinders in the test rig. 

### 11The failures were identical to the failures 

### 12 we get out in the field. Well, not always, because we 

### 13 were having a lot of problems with the barrels breaking 

### 14 at the flanges and we broke a lot of fixtures in the 

### 15 fatigue rig sometimes before we broke the cylinders. 

### 16 But we did get enough data to identify the root cause 

### 17 for the Lycoming cylinders to make a correction, which 

### 18 we implemented in early 2008. 

### 19 On the Continentals, it was not conclusive. 

### 20 We did break a couple of cylinders. We broke an OEM 

### 21cylinder but it didn't break in the traditional manner, 

### 22 and we did break someone else's cylinder and with 

### 23 the -- in the traditional manner. But we were not able 

### 24 to cause fatigue failures in any of our cylinders. And 

### 25 in hindsight now we know that the reason is we justJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 50 1 weren't getting the oven hot enough. In the future, we 

### 2 can go back and do this now, but we're going to have to 

### 3 use aero hydraulic because the hydraulic oil just will 

### 4 not stand up to the temperatures of doing that testing. 

### 5 We ended up with one little minor flash fire, and so we 

### 6 can't go any higher temperature with the current 

### 7 design. 

### 8 MR. MAGUIRE: Jimmy, excuse me. 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 10 MR. MAGUIRE: Would you expand on your test 

### 11temperatures as compared to the temperatures that the 

### 12 cylinders would see in flight operation? 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: In some earlier tests that we 

### 14 had done on Lycoming engines, when the -- when the 

### 15 cylinders got around -- cylinder head temperature with 

### 16 a probe around 475 degrees, we were seeing about 360 to 

### 17 380 degrees at the seal bed, which was the critical 

### 18 area that we were looking at. So that's why we set the 

### 19 temperatures in this oven at 375. 

### 20 We've got much better data today. And to 

### 21go back and do it all over again, we know that we were 

### 22 significantly below the temperatures that we need to be 

### 23 at to introduce failures. 

### 24 MR. MAGUIRE: Lycoming aside, expand on the 

### 25 temperature relationship between what you were testingJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 51 1 on the Continentals versus their in-flight operations. 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: In the in-flight operations -- 

### 3 and I'm going to show you some pictures of seal band 

### 4 temperatures versus CHT here in just a little bit that 

### 5 will show you that when the cylinder is at 460 degrees 

### 6 what the temperatures can be at the seal band and in 

### 7 the threads, which is the critical area that we are 

### 8 having to deal with. 

### 9 So the CHT probe is a little above the 

### 10 barrel and it's back behind. And, by the way, there's 

### 11a lot of variation in CHT problems. 

### 12 MR. GARVENS: Do we have the cut barrel? 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. I don't -- we should 

### 14 have. But some CHT probes go all the way in and touch 

### 15 with a spring behind holding them against the aluminum 

### 16 and others are in the free air, and we are finding some 

### 17 differences there, too. 

### 18 MR. HAKALA: Jimmy, when you had a failure, 

### 19 it was a head separation in this rig? 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: We had one head separation in 

### 21this rig for Continental cylinders. 

### 22 MR. HAKALA: But, I mean, with the -- in 

### 23 the Lycomings. 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: Oh, in the Lycomings, we had -- 

### 25 we -- yeah. Head-barrel separations, we got a numberJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 52 1 of those. 

### 2 MR. HAKALA: But it was at the first 

### 3 thread? 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: At the first loaded thread, 

### 5 yes. 

### 6 MR. HAKALA: Okay. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: And but with that minor 

### 8 interference fit change -- and you have to remember 

### 9 that the Lycoming cylinder head barrel interface is 

### 10 similar but different. And it's different in some 

### 11important ways because the Continental cylinder abuts 

### 12 at the top of the barrel and you torque it so that you 

### 13 put a preload in the threads. On the Lycomings, you 

### 14 abut at the bottom and it also puts a preload on the 

### 15 threads. But that preload on the threads increases 

### 16 with temperature; with Continental, it diminishes with 

### 17 temperature. So all of those things have to be looked 

### 18 at. 

### 19 So we decided that we needed to do some 

### 20 engine testing, that we just couldn't use the test rig 

### 21and achieve what we needed to. 

### 22 MR. GARVENS: We think it gets a little bit 

### 23 more technical, and now is a good time to take a break 

### 24 just for 10 minutes so you will be fresh when data 

### 25 storms come in.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 53 1 MR. THOMPSON: I don't disagree. 

### 2 MS. COX: Okay. 

### 3 MR. PRIESTER: Okay. 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: Thank you. 

### 5 MR. GARVENS: Back at 10:35? 

### 6 (Break from 10:20 a.m. until 10:38 a.m.) 

### 7 MR. DENTON: Ready to resume? 

### 8 MR. SHARON: If it's all right, what we 

### 9 will do is probably break about 12 o'clock for lunch. 

### 10 We've got a cafeteria downstairs depending on what we 

### 11decide to do; if we want to keep it short, then I'd 

### 12 recommend the cafeteria. And if we want to take an 

### 13 hour break, you might have time to go out. But let's 

### 14 plan around 12 o'clock if that's all right. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: All right. 

### 16 Okay. We proposed engine testing to 

### 17 identify the root cause of the head-barrel separations 

### 18 and I am talking about the root cause for the fatigue 

### 19 failure in the top loaded thread of the head. And we 

### 20 made this proposal to the FAA in late 2010, again in 

### 21early 2011. We developed a test program plan, which we 

### 22 did brief the FAA on in June of 2011. Don Kenton was 

### 23 working with us on that at that time frame and that was 

### 24 a part of his presentation also. We conducted the 

### 25 instrumentation, the engine building and testing.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 54 1 Actually, the testing started in December 2011. The 

### 2 instrumentation started quite a bit before that because 

### 3 it turns out that's not an easy thing to do. We had to 

### 4 try to devise a way to get the strain gauges, fine 

### 5 strain gauges that we thought we could -- that would 

### 6 stand up to it and to get somebody that knew how to do 

### 7 that kind of work. 

### 8 MR. SHARON: Jimmy, are you back on a 

### 9 different tab now? 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: Yes, it's not in your ... 

### 11So we conducted the engine tests in the 

### 12 late 2011 and early 2012. And this is the engine in 

### 13 our test cell. Behind the prop you can see the torque 

### 14 meter system. We actually had the engine instrumented 

### 15 for cylinder pressures and measuring torque, but it 

### 16 turned out we were limited on the number of channels 

### 17 that we could operate and so we had to drop the 

### 18 cylinder pressures and the torque readings at the time 

### 19 to be able to do it because we didn't think that that 

### 20 was going to materially affect us. We had run pressure 

### 21tests, cylinder pressure tests on this engine so we got 

### 22 the pressure data to work from. 

### 23 Next one. 

### 24 The thermocouples were put in just above 

### 25 the top loaded thread and they just milled a tinyJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 55 1 little cavity. Now, it looks like a big cavity there 

### 2 but that's really fairly small. These are WK type 

### 3 micro-measurements strain gauges that are good up until 

### 4 about 500 degrees Farenheit and it's M-Bond 610. 

### 5 MR. DENTON: The strain gauges are good up 

### 6 to about six -- 700, the adhesive. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: Right. The bonding is the 

### 8 thing that limits the temperature you can operate with. 

### 9 And then on the outside you can see where the strain 

### 10 gauge wires come through, there is a hole drilled above 

### 11and below the strain gauge that goes into about, oh, a 

### 12 16th of an inch of the seal band in the threads and 

### 13 there we potted K Type thermocouples so that we could 

### 14 see the temperatures above and below each one of the 

### 15 strain gauges. Now, we did this both on the intake and 

### 16 the exhaust sides. And most of the strain gauges 

### 17 survived the earlier tests with one -- I think one 

### 18 dropout, maybe two. In later testing, we did lose a 

### 19 couple of more primarily on the exhaust side. But we 

### 20 got enough data between the intake and the exhaust side 

### 21that we were able to scale from the intake readings 

### 22 what we were going to see on the exhaust side. 

### 23 We wanted to span the production parameters 

### 24 for the cylinders, so what we did is we decided to keep 

### 25 the thread interference a constant 12-thousandths forJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 56 1 the first six cylinders and then vary the seal band 

### 2 interference from 8-thousandths through 18-thousandths. 

### 3 Now, the number 5 glaze cylinder, I want to 

### 4 talk about that a little bit later on also and how we 

### 5 achieved that, and that one came up then with a 17 seal 

### 6 band and an 18 -- I mean a 16-thousandths thread 

### 7 interference. 

### 8 MR. PRIESTER: Now, Jimmy, you selected 

### 9 double-08 as your starting point but your initial 

### 10 design allowed for a double-07. I'm just curious -- 

### 11MR. TUBBS: But that was not for any of the 

### 12 TITANS. That was way back in the range. So all of the 

### 13 TITANS that I'm aware of we were running double-09 as 

### 14 the minimum, and 9 to -- what was -- 9 to 12. 

### 15 MR. DENTON: 9 to 14. 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: And I think now they're -- it 

### 17 was 7 to 12 for a period of time and it was 9 to 12 or 

### 18 9 to 14. 

### 19 MR. DENTON: 9 to 14. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: But we picked the 8-thousandths 

### 21as the low end of that. 

### 22 MR. THOMPSON: The chart you have on tab 16 

### 23 indicates that it happened around serial number 25,000 

### 24 in 2005 that you went from the 7-thousandths to the 

### 25 9-thousandths.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 57 1 MR. TUBBS: Is that right? Okay. 

### 2 MR. PRIESTER: That's why I was saying I'm 

### 3 curious why you didn't pick the orig dimen design, you 

### 4 picked somewhat larger than what would have been 

### 5 allowed by the drawing. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: In all probability I looked at 

### 7 the current drawings and said I want to bridge that, 

### 8 the drawing that was in the time frame of the 2005-6. 

### 9 MR. GILLESPIE: For the current drawing you 

### 10 are going -- 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 12 MR. GILLESPIE: -- beyond what the 

### 13 tolerance -- 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: -- of the drawing would 

### 16 allow. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Well, it -- through the -- and 

### 18 up until the last, until the change where we went up to 

### 19 a higher interference level. 

### 20 MR. PRIESTER: Okay, so none of the data 

### 21that you are presenting -- 

### 22 MR. TUBBS: Is 7-thousandths. 

### 23 MR. PRIESTER: -- you are trying to apply 

### 24 it to -- 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: 7-thousandths.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 58 1 MR. PRIESTER: -- below serial numbers 

### 2 25,000 and below? 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: No. No. And we're going to -- 

### 4 MR. GARVENS: You can extrapolate. 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: You can extrapolate, but we are 

### 6 going to go into what we recommend for that. 

### 7 Next one there. 

### 8 This is just a -- these are trend lines off 

### 9 of the data because, as you can imagine, the lines, 

### 10 they jump around just a little bit, but these are the 

### 11trend lines that are very consistent in all of the 

### 12 cylinders and you can see that we are running a 

### 13 microstrain from around 220 to 320, and for cylinder 

### 14 number 1 it would be up to around 420. Cylinder number 

### 15 1 was the low interference fit cylinder and it also had 

### 16 some other issues as we will discuss. But this is the 

### 17 way the data looks for all of those cylinders. So the 

### 18 strain levels are running at around 220 to 320 on these 

### 19 three cylinders until you hit about 460 and then there 

### 20 is an inflexion and then the stresses go up. 

### 21Now, to look at the stress that you would 

### 22 see at that area just right above the threads, you can 

### 23 just multiply that by 10 or 10.3 depending on the 

### 24 modulus that you want to use. Typically we use 10 

### 25 million as the Young's modulus for aluminum. But thereJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 59 1 is some indication that 10.3, and there's, you know, 

### 2 there's different schools of thought of which one you 

### 3 should use. So that would be reading from 220 ksi to 

### 4 320 ksi down in the areas below CHT limit. 

### 5 MR. GILLESPIE: You mean 22 ksi. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 7 MR. GILLESPIE: So it would be 22 ksi. 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: Right. I'm sorry. 

### 9 MR. THOMPSON: What's the normal operating 

### 10 temperature on the Continental? 

### 11MR. TUBBS: 460. 

### 12 MR. DENTON: That's the limit. 

### 13 MR. STOLLER: That's the normal limit. 

### 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's the limit. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: That's the normal limit. All 

### 16 right. One of the things that we had noticed in all of 

### 17 the cylinders that we have looked at is that they all 

### 18 seem to have a glazed cylinder barrel and those that we 

### 19 got the pistons on, when we looked at the pistons, you 

### 20 look at the insides of the pistons and they show 

### 21indications of high blow-by and so we just felt we 

### 22 needed to test with high blow-by. 

### 23 And, Wayne, I believe we did this from the 

### 24 last time we presented to you at the Directorate, we 

### 25 conducted some more tests that came up with this data.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 60 1 We started off with taking the number 5 

### 2 cylinder off - it's the easiest one to get off of the 

### 3 engine - and took the piston rings and took a 

### 4 three-cornered file and ground on the edges of the 

### 5 rings to try to score them enough to create a high 

### 6 blow-by condition and put them back in the engine, and 

### 7 we did that twice. 

### 8 The next slide there. 

### 9 I thought I had -- it's in the engineering 

### 10 report, not the -- not the presentation. I have 

### 11pictures of the rings that we scored. And so we tried 

### 12 it twice and I scored them some more and it didn't 

### 13 work. So then we went back and found a cylinder that 

### 14 had been returned with extremely high blow-by with the 

### 15 piston that was black on the inside and the rings 

### 16 showed the evidence of blow-by, which usually results 

### 17 in a little sharp edge on the bottoms of the piston 

### 18 rings. So we took that cylinder barrel, took it off -- 

### 19 MR. GARVENS: I think it's on page 20 in 

### 20 that report in tab 22. Is that the picture? 

### 21MR. TUBBS: Right. Exactly. And we took 

### 22 the barrel off and then we had one more strain gauged 

### 23 cylinder head and we measured them up and they worked 

### 24 out to a 17-thousandths seal band interference and a 

### 25 16-thousandths thread interference and we thought,Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 61 1 okay, the cylinder it was replacing was a 

### 2 16-thousandths seal band interference. So we thought 

### 3 that was a good match, so we assembled that cylinder 

### 4 with strain gauges and thermocouples and put it back on 

### 5 the engine and ran it and we got markedly higher 

### 6 stresses in that cylinder when it went past the 460 

### 7 degree line. So the stresses seemed to go up higher 

### 8 for cylinders that are experiencing high blow-by. 

### 9 MR. THOMPSON: Can you define for me 

### 10 blow-by and glazing? 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Okay. All right. Blow-by, 

### 12 when you break a cylinder in, when you start and build 

### 13 an engine, the rings look round but they're not really 

### 14 round. They're close to round, but they're not really 

### 15 round. And they've got a varying amount of stress all 

### 16 the way around them, with the highest bending stress 

### 17 right opposite the gap. And so what you have to do is 

### 18 you have to run that -- you have to fire up the engine 

### 19 and run it and grind the periphery of the ring to match 

### 20 the bore. And until it matches, you've got combustion 

### 21gases escaping past the periphery of the ring down the 

### 22 combustion chamber. So you've got a race going on to 

### 23 try to grind the ring fast enough to seal up against 

### 24 the bore, and against the bore having oil carbonized 

### 25 and deposited on the bore. And if the carbon depositsJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 62 1 win, you end up with a glazed bore and then, as you 

### 2 continue to run, the hot combustion gases bypassing the 

### 3 periphery of the rings create a very hot area and the 

### 4 rings wear significantly and usually get a little sharp 

### 5 lip on the bottom of the ring face. 

### 6 If they seal up, then the combustion gases 

### 7 that leak by are primarily due to going through the 

### 8 ring gaps and are not -- they're not blowing past the 

### 9 outside edges of the ring. 

### 10 Remember, if you've got a thousand psi 

### 11pressure in the combustion chamber, you have about a 

### 12 thousand psi pushing that top compression ring out 

### 13 against the cylinder. 

### 14 The second ring has just about a half of 

### 15 that. 

### 16 MR. PRIESTER: So, Jimmy, could you explain 

### 17 for us how you end up with a glazed bore as opposed to 

### 18 a normal break-in? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: The majority of the time it 

### 20 happens by running the -- it happens out in the field 

### 21more than any other place, where somebody buys some 

### 22 cylinders and puts them on an engine and then they run 

### 23 them on the ground trying to break them in and -- 

### 24 MR. STOLLER: Or option 2 where an engine 

### 25 builder doesn't have a test cell, or ships the engineJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 63 1 without running it, they install it in the airframe and 

### 2 break it in on the ramp. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Right. And you can break in 

### 4 cylinders in an airplane but it's a very, very -- it's 

### 5 a task that has to be followed very carefully and we 

### 6 have done it in the years past, we've written service 

### 7 bulletins and even have a manual about it. 

### 8 MR. PRIESTER: Is the manner in which you 

### 9 break in an engine using ECI cylinders any different 

### 10 than the manner in which you would break in cylinders 

### 11for TCM or Superior? 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: No. And quite frankly, we see 

### 13 a lot of glazed cylinder bores with everybody's 

### 14 cylinders. 

### 15 MR. PRIESTER: Are you getting reports, are 

### 16 people calling in and reporting to you that, "Hey, 

### 17 we've got glazed cylinders," are you getting any 

### 18 reports from customers? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: We get reports quite often of 

### 20 people that say, "Your cylinders haven't broken in, 

### 21we're using too much oil," which is another byproduct 

### 22 of a glazed bore. 

### 23 MR. PRIESTER: Are you getting any reports 

### 24 from the field that some guy calls in and says, "Hey, 

### 25 your cylinders tend to run hotter than OEMs"?Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 64 1 MR. TUBBS: We've had a few calls, but we 

### 2 also get people saying they're not running hot enough. 

### 3 So it really varies. It's a mixed bag. 

### 4 MR. GILLESPIE: But there's no evidence 

### 5 that you have that shows yours are different than the 

### 6 OEM? 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: No. 

### 8 MR. GILLESPIE: In other words, it's 

### 9 anecdotal where people would call in? 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: No. If -- we believe that the 

### 11nickel carbide is a little bit better for break-in, and 

### 12 it -- both steel bores and nickel carbide bores are 

### 13 light years ahead of chrome. And I'll talk about that 

### 14 again in a minute, too. Because the old chrome bores 

### 15 were a real problem. 

### 16 MR. PRIESTER: So your position is that 

### 17 glazed bores is a common problem among all three 

### 18 manufacturers? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Oh yes. Sure. But not only 

### 20 that, Jurgen, you can have a perfectly good running 

### 21engine and be flying it at like in a 421 or a 414 and 

### 22 be flying at 21,000 feet in a pretty cool environment 

### 23 at a pretty high power setting, and if you get a 

### 24 controller to give you a quick descent, it's -- pilots 

### 25 have a tendency to go ahead and acknowledge and pullJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 65 1 the power back. And we've got one case that we've 

### 2 documented fairly recently where it happened and they 

### 3 glazed the bores, it had a hundred hours on it in 

### 4 perfectly good condition, and they glazed the bores in 

### 5 one descent like that. 

### 6 MR. PRIESTER: So how would one make a 

### 7 definitive determination that "I have a glazed bore"? 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: High oil consumption is the 

### 9 easiest way to do it, and looking at the belly of the 

### 10 airplane. 

### 11MR. CROOKSHANKS: Well, but you can't 

### 12 really tell a glazed bore until you look at the inside 

### 13 of the cylinder. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 15 MR. PRIESTER: That's what I'm asking. 

### 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You can go 

### 17 step-wise. 

### 18 MR. PRIESTER: If you've got a failed 

### 19 cylinder and it's suspected that it failed because it's 

### 20 a glazed bore, what would a metallurgist do to 

### 21definitively identify yes or no there's a glazed bore? 

### 22 MR. CROOKSHANKS: You have to look at the 

### 23 cylinder wall and then you can do material samples on 

### 24 the cylinder wall if you need to. But the only way you 

### 25 have to take the cylinder off -- it's not going to failJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 66 1 because of glazing. That's just a product of the 

### 2 break-in period or, you know, like Jimmy says, maybe 

### 3 the descent, you can get a glazed cylinder bore. 

### 4 MR. PRIESTER: Well, yes, but we are 

### 5 attributing glazing to be a fatigue-like detriment. So 

### 6 as a metallurgist -- 

### 7 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Not yet. 

### 8 MR. GARVENS: Glazing in combination with 

### 9 typical operation. 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: What we are saying is the 

### 11testing we did showed higher thread stresses in the 

### 12 cylinder that had glaze. And I want to go back and 

### 13 also say that we always had some higher -- well, from 

### 14 some of the first tests, in the first -- in the phase 2 

### 15 tests we had higher stresses in cylinder number 1 which 

### 16 also had the lower interference. And so in our minds 

### 17 we said, yeah, that tracks; we've got higher stresses 

### 18 in the lower interference cylinder. 

### 19 But when we put this cylinder on for the 

### 20 glazed bore testing, we also bore scope the cylinders 

### 21- all of them - and we did note that cylinder number 1 

### 22 has got glazing. Now, we have not pulled that cylinder 

### 23 off yet. So it's hard, you know, other than in the 

### 24 bore scope, which we can look at and see and make a 

### 25 judgment that it has glazing.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 67 1 MR. PRIESTER: So it's a visual. 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: Yeah, it's visual. Now, when 

### 3 you pull the cylinder off it's pretty easy to see 

### 4 because you can look at the piston. The piston is the 

### 5 easiest way. But you also can do a compression check, 

### 6 and typically with glazing you start losing 

### 7 compression. 

### 8 MR. PRIESTER: So for the cylinders that 

### 9 are known failures, have you made a determination in 

### 10 each case that they did or did not have glazing and 

### 11documented it? 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: All of the cylinders that we 

### 13 have in-house show evidence of glazing. I think we 

### 14 have -- I forget how many of those that we do have. 

### 15 But they do show evidence of glazing. 

### 16 MR. GILLESPIE: Did you bring any with you 

### 17 that you could show them? 

### 18 MR. TUBBS: I don't know that we have a 

### 19 glazed bore here. I do have some photographs of glazed 

### 20 bores here in a few minutes. 

### 21But, and one other issue is of course is 

### 22 that if the cylinder was put on an airplane and it got 

### 23 a glazed bore and it was burning oil bad and they 

### 24 pulled it off because of that and send it in, that was 

### 25 a very common thing that we've been doing for years,Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 68 1 I've done it myself, for repair. So you fix it, you 

### 2 put it back on and you run the engine. What I don't 

### 3 know is what that first high temperature operation did 

### 4 to the cylinder and that's a new concern that I have 

### 5 coming up. 

### 6 MR. PRIESTER: You say "fix it." Do you 

### 7 remove the glazed condition? 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: You remove the glaze by honing 

### 9 the bore and put in new piston rings. Typically new 

### 10 piston rings and a new piston. 

### 11MR. PRIESTER: Are you aware of any head 

### 12 separations caused on OEM cylinders due possibly to a 

### 13 glazed condition? 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Yes, absolutely. 

### 15 MR. CROOKSHANKS: I think you are asking 

### 16 the wrong question. The head separation is not due to 

### 17 a glazed condition. If you look at this plot, you can 

### 18 see that the stress level on a glazed bore for normal 

### 19 operating temperatures is in fact lower with a glazed 

### 20 cylinder. 

### 21MR. TUBBS: You're right. Exactly. 

### 22 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Okay? It's not until the 

### 23 temperature increases that the stresses increase, and 

### 24 the stress is where we get into starting a fatigue 

### 25 crack.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 69 1 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 2 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Okay. 

### 3 MR. PRIESTER: Let me reword it: 

### 4 Are you aware of any OEM cylinders that 

### 5 have been separated, head separations who also happen 

### 6 to be glazed? 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 8 MR. PRIESTER: You -- yes? 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Yes. Definitely. We have -- I 

### 10 have documentation of that in my computer, in fact. 

### 11They were cylinders that were overhaul repaired and -- 

### 12 and then did -- then fail -- they had glazed bores and 

### 13 they did have head-barrel separation. OEM cylinders. 

### 14 And the reason we have them is because they went 

### 15 through our repair station. 

### 16 MR. VICKERS: Jimmy, can you explain to me 

### 17 the physics behind what's causing that thread stress to 

### 18 go up when it's glazed and then when it's not? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Again -- and I've had a lot of 

### 20 discussions with a lot of different people trying to 

### 21find out why, but we know also that it's pushing oil up 

### 22 above the piston rings and so that is modifying the 

### 23 combustion gasses and there is some possibility that we 

### 24 are getting higher peak pressures because of that. 

### 25 MR. VICKERS: You could measure some ofJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 70 1 that, right? 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: We could -- we have not 

### 3 completed -- you know, we have not gotten that far. 

### 4 But yes, what we know now that with the glaze we've got 

### 5 higher stresses. Exactly what is producing those 

### 6 higher stresses, I haven't been able to develop all the 

### 7 data for that. 

### 8 MR. VICKERS: Okay. 

### 9 MR. SHARON: Jimmy, the data you have in 

### 10 your computer on the OEMs, are any of those listed in 

### 11the SDR? 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: Not in this -- oh, in the SDRs? 

### 13 MR. SHARON: Yes. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: I don't know. I can tell 

### 15 you -- 

### 16 MR. DENTON: They're not -- 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: -- that they were 

### 18 involved in -- 

### 19 MR. DENTON: They're not specifically -- 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: They were involved in incidents 

### 21and -- and in fact I can think of one Lycoming. And 

### 22 Bill, Bill Vickers actually knows about one of them 

### 23 because he was with us during the accident 

### 24 investigation. 

### 25 MR. SHARON: Can you provide whatever dataJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 71 1 you have on that? 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: Sure. 

### 3 MR. SHARON: If you've got OEM failures 

### 4 like that, that would be good to know. 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: Sure. Absolutely. Because 

### 6 there is very little -- there's -- in fact, I've 

### 7 got sev -- now, we have to be careful that -- that -- 

### 8 and -- and maybe I need to let -- 

### 9 MR. STOLLER: We don't have a barrel. 

### 10 We've got a head if you want to look at a head of an 

### 11OEM failure. 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. We've got an OEM failure 

### 13 here. 

### 14 MR. GILLESPIE: Right now, Jimmy, you see 

### 15 no real difference between OEM and your heads, correct? 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: No, no. 

### 17 MR. GILLESPIE: They're looking -- 

### 18 MR. TUBBS: We -- this -- OEM heads fail. 

### 19 Our heads fail and -- and some other production -- you 

### 20 know, there were some other production approval holder 

### 21heads that failed. And quite frankly, they are all 

### 22 failing for the same reason. 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: And I think that is the 

### 24 basis of your -- your position -- 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: Right.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 72 1 MR. GILLESPIE: -- is that -- 

### 2 MR. PRIESTER: What is that reason? 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Overtemperature operation. 

### 4 When it goes over temperature, the stresses, the 

### 5 stresses just move up into that range and you've got 

### 6 to -- you've got to look at the -- at the material 

### 7 properties. I mean, at close to 600 degrees, you've 

### 8 already exceeded your yield points on that AMS -- on 

### 9 that A242 alloy. 

### 10 MR. PRIESTER: So, Jimmy, if we take the -- 

### 11if we take the fleet, there's a very large fleet out 

### 12 there or -- and on a lot, a lot of those airplanes they 

### 13 have digital data that is routinely recorded. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 15 MR. PRIESTER: Do you have any data to 

### 16 substantiate the claim that there's lots of folks out 

### 17 there that are exceeding 460 on a routine basis, or at 

### 18 all? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: I only have some -- some data. 

### 20 I think that there are some people, though, that do 

### 21have that data. Two people that can I think of that 

### 22 probably have that data are going to be George Brawley, 

### 23 they probably have that data, and so does Mike Busch 

### 24 with their -- you know, they've got that analysis, I 

### 25 think, where they are doing a lot of that.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 73 1 MR. PRIESTER: I guess -- why have you not 

### 2 sought to secure that type of data to substantiate the 

### 3 claim that they are in fact running the engines hotter 

### 4 than 460? 

### 5 MR. GARVENS: I think that's part of what 

### 6 we have been trying to achieve is get everybody on 

### 7 board at what the root cause of the problem is, that 

### 8 what every indication that we have tested is, and then 

### 9 for us to work together. That was one of the NTSB's -- 

### 10 you know, they were enthusiastic about the ideas that 

### 11we need data, we need to start going out there and 

### 12 collect this stuff and learn more and more what is 

### 13 causing so many problems in the -- 

### 14 MR. PRIESTER: But you overhaul lots of 

### 15 engines and surely know who the purchasers of those 

### 16 engines are. Have you not asked them to provide you 

### 17 data? 

### 18 MR. STOLLER: Can you discuss what 

### 19 equipment is on the aircraft? 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 21MR. GARVENS: And not purposefully it's 

### 22 getting wider. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: Remember, Jurgen, we produce 

### 24 component parts and they go to distributors who sell 

### 25 those to other people, so we don't always know whereJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 74 1 these parts go, where the cylinders go. Now, that will 

### 2 change as we start building cylinders, there's no 

### 3 question about that. And you are asking some questions 

### 4 that I wish I could say I did that. But I -- there's 

### 5 some of these things that I should have done that I 

### 6 haven't done yet. 

### 7 MR. GILLESPIE: One thing you have done, 

### 8 though, is taken engines that would have a temperature 

### 9 provided and found that when you do look at all of the 

### 10 cylinders, the variation is great. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Oh, yes. 

### 12 MR. GILLESPIE: So even with data from an 

### 13 engine, you generally are not going to get data that 

### 14 would conclusively show you that all of the cylinders 

### 15 are running at that temperature. So if you get a 

### 16 reading of 460 on one, you very well could have other 

### 17 cylinders running at 560, and he has empirical data to 

### 18 show that. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Yes, we have data on that, too. 

### 20 MR. STOLLER: Newer aircraft are more 

### 21likely to have temperature monitoring on every 

### 22 cylinder. Ours are replacement cylinders, so they 

### 23 would tend to go on older aircraft, not new OEM 

### 24 aircraft as produced. 

### 25 MR. PRIESTER: A lot of your cylinders goJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 75 1 into RAM engines, don't they? 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. 

### 3 MR. PRIESTER: And those engines are pretty 

### 4 much new and go into twin Cessnas, which are 

### 5 high-dollar airplanes, right? 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: How do you want to answer that? 

### 7 MR. GARVENS: Our experience -- 

### 8 (Unintelligible overspeak) 

### 9 MR. CROOKSHANKS: I think we're getting 

### 10 away from the real problem here. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Right. Right. 

### 12 MR. CROOKSHANKS: What we are talking about 

### 13 here is basically our recommendation, which is a set of 

### 14 cylinders by serial number that we know about, and 

### 15 we're getting off into kind of speculation on other 

### 16 manufacturers' cylinders that has nothing to do really 

### 17 with this particular issue that we are talking about. 

### 18 I think we should probably try and continue on this for 

### 19 the root cause of the failures that they have seen, 

### 20 which we issued a recommendation about. 

### 21MR. TUBBS: And I can talk -- Jurgen, let's 

### 22 talk about this after, because I've got lots of data. 

### 23 We did testing for Continental Motors, for goodness 

### 24 sakes. 

### 25 MR. MAGUIRE: Jimmy, before we leave this,Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 76 1 clarify for me: 

### 2 When you are saying failures are occurring 

### 3 on the Continental cylinders as well as the ECI 

### 4 marketed cylinders, talking about the number of 

### 5 occurrences. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Yes. Yes. The number of 

### 7 occurrences. Now, if you looked at the pattern of 

### 8 failures, theirs dropped off over the last few years 

### 9 and then from our production they stopped and now we 

### 10 haven't had a failure in over 18 months either. So, 

### 11you know, they've all mitigated. And we've made some 

### 12 continuous improvements, as has Continental. But then 

### 13 we have to -- need to go back and take a look, and 

### 14 we're going to -- we're going to make some suggestions 

### 15 where we go from here I think that will address that 

### 16 also. 

### 17 Okay. 

### 18 During our meeting in November, I believe 

### 19 with Michael -- well, I think we all were involved. 

### 20 And it was suggested that we do a finite element 

### 21analysis, to go ahead and conform that to the testing 

### 22 that we've done to see what kind of stress levels we're 

### 23 getting in the cylinders and see how that correlates, 

### 24 and then it also will provide us a basis to do any type 

### 25 of crack growth studies or anything else that we needJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 77 1 to do. But first thing we wanted to do was to just 

### 2 correlate and see where the stress levels are. 

### 3 To do that, we decided we had to do it and 

### 4 we contacted Don Gillespie with Delta G and we have 

### 5 contracted with Don to produce a finite element stress 

### 6 model to match up and to correlate it to our test data. 

### 7 And it's a work in progress, it's a lot more complex 

### 8 and in a minute we will get a chance for Don to explain 

### 9 exactly what he's doing and how he's doing it. They 

### 10 started off with our 3D model and they've had to make a 

### 11few corrections and changes to make sure that it 

### 12 matched exactly to the thread profiles and a few 

### 13 things, but they've done all of that, and we set that 

### 14 range of boundary conditions to cover all of the 

### 15 parameters from the lower interference, the high 

### 16 interference, the low temperatures to the high 

### 17 temperature operations and also the cylinder pressures. 

### 18 Now, the first run that we did I think used 

### 19 1,000 psi cylinder pressure and the second run uses 900 

### 20 psi cylinder pressures. The 900 is closer to what we 

### 21would see with the Continental engines. 

### 22 This is a picture of the model that they 

### 23 just developed and it has all of the features that are 

### 24 critical to the cylinder head at the head-to-barrel 

### 25 interface. And so there is a barrel, and sections ofJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 78 1 the barrel and sections of the head. 

### 2 Go ahead. 

### 3 Now, then, before I showed you what the 

### 4 stress levels were measured on the strain gauges, and 

### 5 those were running, you know, from 2 up to as high as 

### 6 6 kips or 6,000 psi, and what we are looking at right 

### 7 here is assuming that the seal band does not provide 

### 8 any benefit to the joint, that it's all the threads. 

### 9 The seal band is slipping. 

### 10 MR. GILLESPIE: Which is what you expect at 

### 11a high temperature -- 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: This is what you'd expect at a 

### 13 high temperature. 

### 14 MR. GILLESPIE: -- when the head is 

### 15 expanded more than the cylinder, there is no longer any 

### 16 friction between the head and the cylinder so all of 

### 17 the load is being taken by the threads. 

### 18 MR. NASH: This is a temperature higher 

### 19 than the assembly temperature? 

### 20 MR. GILLESPIE: No. 

### 21MR. TUBBS: Actually that could even be 

### 22 room temperature. But what it is, is it would be that 

### 23 way if it was heat -- if it was heated. 

### 24 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Are you putting 

### 25 temperature effects in your model right now?Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 79 1 MR. GILLESPIE: Not in this model. 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: Go ahead. 

### 3 MR. CROOKSHANKS: You are simulating 

### 4 temperature effects by the contact stresses at this 

### 5 event. 

### 6 MR. GILLESPIE: Correct. 

### 7 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Okay. 

### 8 MR. GILLESPIE: And currently, these 

### 9 contact stresses are zero between the head and the 

### 10 cylinder, which -- 

### 11MR. CROOKSHANKS: For the plot or this 

### 12 model. 

### 13 MR. GILLESPIE: For this plot. 

### 14 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Okay. 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: Which -- which simulates a 

### 16 high temperature. What temperature, we're not saying 

### 17 yet because we have not introduced that. We looked at 

### 18 the limits, meaning if the head had a very high 

### 19 interference due to the assembly, you're going to -- 

### 20 that friction band is going to be pushed up against the 

### 21cylinder and the head and you're going to get, when 

### 22 the -- when the pressure is built up in your cylinder, 

### 23 it is going to be taken out, a large portion of that, 

### 24 by that friction band without going through your 

### 25 threads.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 80 1 As that temperature in your head increases, 

### 2 it relieves that pressure against the cylinder. And as 

### 3 you relieve that pressure, more of the threads now have 

### 4 to take the load, which would then explain why, as you 

### 5 increase the temperature even more severely as the head 

### 6 opens up, totally relieves that load, and now starts 

### 7 expanding away from the cylinder to an extreme, you 

### 8 could blow off a head if the threads in the cells were 

### 9 not even engaging any longer, which is what you just 

### 10 showed with that other head. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Right. But in this case, you 

### 12 can see that the thread, the stress -- and this is -- 

### 13 by the way, this is a von Mises stress, and a von Mises 

### 14 stress is -- is not just the principal stress but it 

### 15 is -- it's a composite -- 

### 16 MR. GILLESPIE: It's an energy equation. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: It's an energy equation. 

### 18 MR. GILLESPIE: So I don't want -- yeah, we 

### 19 just did this as a quick -- as a quick number to come 

### 20 out and show changes in stress level when you have 

### 21friction and when you don't have friction. 

### 22 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: We are going to be 

### 24 providing more data shortly using both interference, 

### 25 the friction and the temperature change as well as theJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 81 1 pressure, and we will have all those variations 

### 2 included and we are going to be matching their data. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Next slide. 

### 4 This is on the other end of the scale. 

### 5 This is a condition where the -- where there is no slip 

### 6 between the seal band of the head and the barrel. 

### 7 MR. GILLESPIE: Does everyone understand 

### 8 what they are looking at right here? 

### 9 MR. CROOKSHANKS: How did you model the no 

### 10 slip? Is it just a boundary condition? 

### 11MR. GILLESPIE: Yes. 

### 12 MR. CROOKSHANKS: You fixed that boundary? 

### 13 MR. GILLESPIE: Yes, that's correct. 

### 14 MR. DENTON: This is the cross-section of 

### 15 the barrel. 

### 16 MR. GILLESPIE: Actually, actually we 

### 17 didn't fix it. We actually put in -- there is a 

### 18 correspondent in Abacus where we can put in a friction. 

### 19 MR. DENTON: So here is a cross-section. 

### 20 Here's the aluminum head. 

### 21MR. CROOKSHANKS: But you can say 

### 22 there's -- the friction is zero. 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: Is basically infinite. 

### 24 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Or infinite. 

### 25 MR. GILLESPIE: Yes.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 82 1 MR. CROOKSHANKS: It's infinite here -- 

### 2 MR. GILLESPIE: Yes. 

### 3 MR. CROOKSHANKS: -- because you get no 

### 4 slip. 

### 5 MR. GILLESPIE: That's correct. 

### 6 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Okay. 

### 7 MR. DENTON: Here are the threads on the 

### 8 head and the threads on the steel barrel. So -- and 

### 9 then here are the fins on the steel barrel. So 

### 10 basically a cross-section of the cylinder. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Now, the question that I would 

### 12 ask if I had not worked on this was if there's no slip 

### 13 between the head and barrel, why is there any stress 

### 14 down below? In other words, if there's no -- if 

### 15 there's no slip between the seal band of the head and 

### 16 the barrel, why is there a stress down below? And the 

### 17 answer to that is that you've got shear strength that 

### 18 is going to transfer the load, transfer some of the 

### 19 load down below regardless of whether it's slips or 

### 20 not. 

### 21And when we take cylinders apart out in our 

### 22 shop and, you know, those of you that have been there 

### 23 realize we take a lot of them apart every day, and if 

### 24 you look at the seal bands in the head and the barrel 

### 25 for cylinders that have run successfully through, youJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 83 1 don't find any metal transfer between the seal band and 

### 2 the -- of the head and the steel barrel. Those of you 

### 3 that have worked with composite structures where you've 

### 4 got aluminum and steel working together, if they have 

### 5 relative motion, you get, as a -- as a part of that, 

### 6 you get metal transfer. So basically what we are 

### 7 saying is that the successful cylinders that run 

### 8 through to TBO don't have a slip between the seal bands 

### 9 of the head and the barrel. 

### 10 MR. GILLESPIE: So I just want to kind 

### 11of -- you can see this is the head that's going on, on 

### 12 to cylinder. Here's the cylinder here, and it's coming 

### 13 around. This is just a portion of it. The area that 

### 14 he is indicating as the slip band is right here. This 

### 15 head is torqued down on. You have a slip band where 

### 16 when the piston has compressed and you've got your 

### 17 pressure pushing up on your head, this area here is 

### 18 very tight with interference in the normal operation, 

### 19 which is going to have a lot of friction capability. 

### 20 As this head expands out, it no longer will provide you 

### 21with any type of a load-carrying capability and it 

### 22 transfers down to your -- well, to all of your threads; 

### 23 primarily, your first thread. 

### 24 Does that make sense? Anybody have any 

### 25 questions as far as what they're really kind of lookingJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 84 1 at? Sometimes with these models I take it for granted 

### 2 because I've been looking at them forever, and somebody 

### 3 else looks at it and says, "I don't know what the heck 

### 4 that is." 

### 5 MR. GARVENS: So in these two extreme 

### 6 conditions, we see in the full slip condition this peak 

### 7 stress, whatever you call that -- metatarsal stress? 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: Right. No. 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: It was -- it was 30,000 and 

### 10 in this instance it's 5 and so those match our 

### 11expectation that we are at. 

### 12 Do you want to say anything about the 

### 13 aluminum? 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Yes, well, I also want to point 

### 15 out, if you will look at the thread relief that is 

### 16 above the top loaded thread and look at the stresses -- 

### 17 MR. GILLESPIE: And I'll just -- I'll stand 

### 18 here while he's saying these things. Here's your 

### 19 thread relief right here. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 21MR. GILLESPIE: It's a very large radius 

### 22 comparatively speaking to what your thread radiuses 

### 23 are. 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: Right. And what you see if you 

### 25 look at the stress levels there with it locked up atJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 85 1 the seal band, the stress levels below the seal band 

### 2 are very, very close to the stresses that we recorded 

### 3 with the strain gauges that are in that location. 

### 4 MR. GILLESPIE: And the strain gauges are 

### 5 right there. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: So the strain gauges are right 

### 7 in here. 

### 8 MR. GILLESPIE: And they are going in the 

### 9 head. So the low stress that you are seeing right 

### 10 here, we are showing 3 ksi, is very close right now to 

### 11what their -- their corresponding numbers are from 

### 12 empirical data. We still -- and I don't want to give 

### 13 this as an end justification because we are still 

### 14 looking at combining temperature data, friction, all of 

### 15 these different components together before we get a 

### 16 conclusive answer, but it is very -- it looks very 

### 17 encouraging and very straightforward right now that the 

### 18 temperature of the engine is having the dramatic 

### 19 effect. That's what's -- that is what it is increasing 

### 20 the load on the threads as the temperature goes up. 

### 21And we have been able to show that. We just don't have 

### 22 that all correlated yet. 

### 23 MR. THOMPSON: Earlier you mentioned 

### 24 torquing it down. Have y'all looked if it's not 

### 25 torqued all the way, if it's -- or torqued too much --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 86 1 MR. TUBBS: In this particular model -- 

### 2 MR. THOMPSON: -- if it's -- 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: In this particular model, we 

### 4 used a torque that we work around. 

### 5 MR. GILLESPIE: We take the head, we screw 

### 6 it on, and right here you see that the head actually 

### 7 impacts -- not impacts. Is pushed down and then they 

### 8 continue to torque. 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Compresses. Right. 

### 10 MR. GILLESPIE: So they are torquing the 

### 11threads, pulling down on the head and holding it here. 

### 12 So you have a pre-load that would be right up at the 

### 13 top of your cylinder against the head. 

### 14 MR. THOMPSON: Do y'all control that 

### 15 torque? 

### 16 MR. GILLESPIE: Yes. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Yes. But now let me -- let me 

### 18 also go a little further, though. The torque provides 

### 19 a pre-load on the threads, which changes the stress 

### 20 ratio in the top loaded thread. That's the design 

### 21parameter. But when you get above 460 degrees, you've 

### 22 got enough expansion in the aluminum that you have 

### 23 alleviated all of that. So your stress ratio at that 

### 24 point turns to zero, which is zero over whatever the 

### 25 level it is. And so what's happened is that from goingJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 87 1 from a very -- a pretty fair -- a good stress ratio in 

### 2 the normal operating range, a factor making it worse is 

### 3 the fact that you change over those temperatures, you 

### 4 lose that benefit of the stress ratio. 

### 5 MR. THOMPSON: So in the normal operating 

### 6 range, if it's not torqued enough do you see increases 

### 7 in the stress? 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: We really haven't seen the, you 

### 9 know -- the analysis is a little inconclusive right 

### 10 now. And I know what you are asking, but I know that 

### 11at the critical range it doesn't make any difference. 

### 12 MR. GILLESPIE: Do you have empirical data, 

### 13 test data, showing different torques? 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Not right now, I don't. 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: You don't. 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: I don't. But we've done a lot 

### 17 of calculations to look at the stress in that -- in 

### 18 that distance between the top of the barrel and the top 

### 19 loaded thread and look at the expansion of that versus 

### 20 the expansion of the steel. 

### 21MR. GARVENS: You're sort of saying you'd 

### 22 like to see us run the model without the pre-load to 

### 23 see what we would learn? 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: I think that's a great idea. 

### 25 MR. THOMPSON: Well, I'm just curiousJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 88 1 because when I visited and I saw the assembly of the 

### 2 cylinders, it appeared that maintaining or having a 

### 3 torque set value the way you assemble it would be 

### 4 difficult because there was a guy spinning the head on 

### 5 and then whacking it with a mallet. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Yeah, right. 

### 7 MR. THOMPSON: So just curious if that 

### 8 has -- plays any role into what stresses you see. 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: I do know that today other 

### 10 people assemble them with an assembly rig, but in the 

### 11years past everybody did it with a wrench. 

### 12 MR. GILLESPIE: Was it a quantified number? 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: It is -- it was not then. The 

### 14 traditional way of assembling the cylinders was not. 

### 15 It was just how big the guy was doing them. 

### 16 MR. MAGUIRE: Jimmy, is that change in 

### 17 assembly process reflected in the timeline chart that 

### 18 you showed earlier today? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Yes. That started, that -- we 

### 20 went from a, really, a manual system to a considerably 

### 21better system in December of 2004. 

### 22 MR. PRIESTER: And so what is that current 

### 23 system for assembly? 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: Well, the current system right 

### 25 now is control the temperature and then they torque itJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 89 1 and then they've got -- they go ahead and hit it to 

### 2 produce that torque level. 

### 3 MR. PRIESTER: What is the -- how does the 

### 4 guy know that he has achieved the minimum torque 

### 5 required and not exceeded the maximum torque? 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: There was -- we never had a 

### 7 minimum torque required as a part of our assembly 

### 8 procedure. 

### 9 MR. PRIESTER: So just however hard he hits 

### 10 it with the mallet? 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 12 MR. VICKERS: See, one of the beauties of 

### 13 the finite element analysis is you can do better 

### 14 studies to try to explore these kind of things. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: That is exactly what we -- 

### 16 that's one of the things that we want to look at, 

### 17 because we can look at the stress level without any -- 

### 18 because we applied a torque level for this model. 

### 19 MR. PRIESTER: But the drawings don't 

### 20 include an assembly torque per se. 

### 21MR. TUBBS: No. And there -- that's true. 

### 22 Because the only benefit -- the benefit that you get 

### 23 from a torque is to change the stress ratio in the root 

### 24 of the threads. 

### 25 MR. GILLESPIE: But again, your indicationsJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 90 1 from your testing don't show that the torque is the 

### 2 problem. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: No. 

### 4 MR. GILLESPIE: It's the temperature as you 

### 5 increase. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 7 MR. GILLESPIE: That it -- what it comes 

### 8 down -- what it seems to come down to currently is that 

### 9 the cylinders and the head, being different materials, 

### 10 expand at different rates. And as the aluminum is 

### 11expanding faster than the head -- excuse me -- than the 

### 12 cylinder, you are losing that friction between the 

### 13 cylinder and the head. 

### 14 MR. PRIESTER: So let me ask, if you -- if 

### 15 we don't have a calibrated torque, a design torque, and 

### 16 I think -- Jimmy, did you say if the guy torques it 

### 17 down harder, does that -- does that initiate a higher 

### 18 pre-load on the first thread? 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Oh sure. Any torque adds 

### 20 the -- to a pre-load in the thread. 

### 21MR. PRIESTER: Okay, so I'm just -- I'm 

### 22 just wondering, say, if I torque it down pretty hard, I 

### 23 have a higher initial stress in the first thread. And 

### 24 then as temperature changes, I transfer load -- the 

### 25 seal band's load then superimposes on that pre-load onJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 91 1 the thread, right? 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: The part that is transitioning 

### 3 past the seal band is added to the threads. 

### 4 MR. PRIESTER: So if I start out with a 

### 5 higher pre-load on the thread and then add to it the 

### 6 contributing effects of loss of seal band friction, I 

### 7 would have a higher load on the first thread due to the 

### 8 superposition of those two loads, would I not? 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Well -- 

### 10 MR. CROOKSHANKS: There's a -- there's a 

### 11limit, though. There's a limit in the amount of 

### 12 pre-load that you can put on -- 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 14 MR. CROOKSHANKS: -- these threads in the 

### 15 basic design. If you look at the basic design of the 

### 16 Continental cylinder, it's going to impact that 

### 17 shoulder up there. So you can only go so far. It's 

### 18 not like you can keep torquing it and getting better 

### 19 and better and better. You've got that design where it 

### 20 impacts that shoulder of the head and then you can't 

### 21really go much farther. You can give it a bang and 

### 22 that's about it. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: It embosses. 

### 24 MR. CROOKSHANKS: We see that when we -- we 

### 25 did a whole bunch of investigation down at TCM in howJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 92 1 they do their cylinders and there's just -- there's an 

### 2 upper limit there. You can't go any farther. So 

### 3 you've got to kind of take that into consideration. 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: The major effect is the change 

### 5 in stress ratio, and that has an impact in the fatigue 

### 6 bands of the cylinders. So as the stress ratio goes 

### 7 from a positive stress level to a higher positive 

### 8 stress level, that's a -- that's a number divided by 

### 9 another number and -- and then as you go to zero, then 

### 10 that stress ratio goes to zero. And if you plot those, 

### 11you will see a little difference in the fatigue bands. 

### 12 But that's the -- that's the -- the -- the only real 

### 13 ben -- only real change you get. But then when you get 

### 14 beyond 460 to 500 degrees or so, it's -- it's kind of a 

### 15 moot point because you've lost it anyway. 

### 16 MR. VICKERS: So what all -- you said 

### 17 you've done a lot of testing. He's trying to correlate 

### 18 the model. How much of that testing has now been 

### 19 verified in the model at this point? 

### 20 MR. GILLESPIE: We are just in the initial 

### 21stages of verifying the temperatures and the -- all of 

### 22 the different components that go along with the 

### 23 empirical data. That's why we are here presenting only 

### 24 these slides. I have -- I -- and I can actually show 

### 25 you, Bill, you know, the -- you know, like with birdJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 93 1 strike how we do a simulation going through a time 

### 2 series, we are doing the same thing using nonlinear 

### 3 runs. 

### 4 And to be honest, we were hoping they -- 

### 5 they kind of -- they came to me and we started getting 

### 6 into this and, you know, the length of the run time, we 

### 7 just weren't able to come up with a conclusion that we 

### 8 need to in order to -- to give you the end result. 

### 9 We'll have that and every indication right now shows 

### 10 that, from what I've looked at with Jimmy and the rest 

### 11of the gentlemen at their company, it -- it really does 

### 12 look like the temperatures on the runs that we have 

### 13 made, you can see, and just common sense tells you the 

### 14 expansion being different in the aluminum is going to 

### 15 relieve that band. And the simple runs that we have 

### 16 made like this showing total load-carrying capability 

### 17 by the band versus none, a total slip, it shows very 

### 18 close to what they are showing in their empirical data. 

### 19 What we need to do is run more cases 

### 20 showing actual temperatures. We are going to take the 

### 21temperatures, start running them up, changing them with 

### 22 specific interferences between the heads and then we 

### 23 will be able to see where that changes, and that's what 

### 24 we're -- that's the data that we will be coming up with 

### 25 shortly.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 94 1 MR. VICKERS: And that's test, or a model? 

### 2 MR. GILLESPIE: That will be modeled. They 

### 3 have already run enough data I think right now that we 

### 4 can use a lot of that to correlate to the model. 

### 5 MR. VICKERS: So have you encompassed it, 

### 6 like -- 

### 7 MR. GILLESPIE: No, not -- 

### 8 MR. VICKERS: Have you been doing some 

### 9 things in between but you've encompassed it by tests? 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: We've got the end points. 

### 11MR. GILLESPIE: We have the end points in 

### 12 the model but we do not have the data in between, and 

### 13 that's why we are not showing you any curves. Jimmy 

### 14 wanted to be able to show curves that would match the 

### 15 empirical data. I can't give him that information yet 

### 16 because we have not been able to generate it yet. 

### 17 MR. VICKERS: But at this point in time 

### 18 from what I'm understanding, your intention is to try 

### 19 to determine that magic temperature at different 

### 20 interference? 

### 21MR. GILLESPIE: I won't even say magic 

### 22 temperature. You know the curve that he showed earlier 

### 23 showing the strains and as they hit 460 to 520, they 

### 24 start to kick up. And the question is why do they kick 

### 25 up? Why is it moving to increase that stress? BecauseJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 95 1 that stress is what is obviously failing the heads. 

### 2 We're looking at trying to show that the -- that the 

### 3 design, the inherent design of a steel tube with an 

### 4 aluminum head as it goes past 460 degrees with a known 

### 5 interference of 8,000 and above, that we're going to be 

### 6 able to show that, look, you are starting to lose this 

### 7 slip band capability and it's being taken more in the 

### 8 threads and we're going to try and correlate it 

### 9 directly to the test, yeah. And that's our intent. 

### 10 And then we will be able to show you not 

### 11just a point or two points; we'll be able to explain 

### 12 the phenomena and then show you that, similar to the 

### 13 bird strike where we can go through time, we'll go 

### 14 through temperature and we'll start showing you how we 

### 15 increase the temperature on it and how the loads will 

### 16 change. 

### 17 MR. VICKERS: Temperature was one. We were 

### 18 also told earlier because of the glazing that it could 

### 19 be a pressure issue; as you said, there's a change in 

### 20 your products of -- 

### 21MR. GILLESPIE: But I don't think you're -- 

### 22 you are not propose -- you are just proposing that the 

### 23 increased temperature is what is really doing it. 

### 24 Right? The glaze -- 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: We -- I -- I don't know --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 96 1 MR. GILLESPIE: -- starts out lower 

### 2 temperature -- 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. 

### 4 MR. GILLESPIE: -- and then comes up at a 

### 5 higher temperature quicker. 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Well, we -- it -- 

### 7 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Stress. 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: It's plotted -- 

### 9 MR. GILLESPIE: I'm sorry. You're right. 

### 10 Higher stress quicker. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: It's plotted against CHT, see? 

### 12 That's the -- that's the -- 

### 13 MR. GILLESPIE: Thank you. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: We are plotted against the same 

### 15 temperature band. So at the same temperature, it's a 

### 16 higher stress. 

### 17 MR. GILLESPIE: Yes. That's what I meant 

### 18 to say. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: So it's got to be a pressure 

### 20 related effect. 

### 21MR. VICKERS: And you are going to explore 

### 22 a variety of different -- 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: Yes. 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: What it -- 

### 25 MR. VICKERS: -- factors and see --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 97 1 MR. TUBBS: Or -- 

### 2 MR. VICKERS: -- you know, there could be 

### 3 an interplay -- 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: Sure. 

### 5 MR. VICKERS: -- between them, but -- but 

### 6 you are going to try to explore all this to see what's 

### 7 your dominant effects and hopefully predict something 

### 8 from where we stand? 

### 9 MR. GILLESPIE: As you can imagine, Bill, 

### 10 you could do this as a Ph.D. project. Currently, what 

### 11I foresaw doing is simply trying to match their 

### 12 empirical data and not try to show every single 

### 13 variation in how each component works but, rather, show 

### 14 that when we model it and we change the temperatures, 

### 15 that we would be able to show, as did the curves that 

### 16 Jimmy has, the temperature -- or the stress level going 

### 17 up with temperature at that critical zone. I don't 

### 18 think -- there was no plan currently to look at 

### 19 glazing, et cetera. We can start doing these things. 

### 20 We can do more, if that's what the FAA requires, we 

### 21will do that, but I think right now we were trying to 

### 22 show simply increased temperature is causing the 

### 23 critical location to go up in stress. 

### 24 MR. VICKERS: With the exception of you 

### 25 already had a whole discussion about glazing and thatJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 98 1 causing the stress to go up and all that. 

### 2 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Go look at that plot 

### 3 again. The glaze bore stress is actually lower at 

### 4 normal operating temperatures. 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: Yes, it is. 

### 6 MR. CROOKSHANKS: You've got a lower 

### 7 stress. So it's kind of better in the normal range, 

### 8 but once you get up above normal limits, then it gets 

### 9 worse. So got to be careful on what the effect of 

### 10 glazed bore is. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: That's right. 

### 12 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Whether you are talking 

### 13 normal temperature ranges or above the normal limits. 

### 14 MR. GILLESPIE: And all of our test results 

### 15 show that -- 

### 16 MR. VICKERS: There's an interplay 

### 17 between -- 

### 18 MR. CROOKSHANKS: There's an in -- 

### 19 MR. VICKERS: Sure. 

### 20 MR. CROOKSHANKS: There's no doubt there's 

### 21an interplay. 

### 22 MR. VICKERS: And -- 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: There's an interplay -- 

### 24 MR. CROOKSHANKS: But the -- but the effect 

### 25 is that -- the effect that -- the effect is kind of theJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 99 1 same: You see a kickup in the stress levels at a 

### 2 temp -- at about the same temperature band. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 4 MR. CROOKSHANKS: I'm not going to say it's 

### 5 here or it's there, but there's a temperature band 

### 6 there where the stresses versus -- a glazed bore versus 

### 7 a non-glazed bore, they still kick up. 

### 8 MR. GILLESPIE: The phenomena is the same. 

### 9 MR. CROOKSHANKS: And there's a inflection 

### 10 point in that stress. 

### 11MR. VICKERS: But do you intend in your 

### 12 validation exercise to only address temperature, or to 

### 13 address these other effects which have also been 

### 14 introduced here? 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: We were not going to -- we 

### 16 were not planning currently, unless the gentleman want 

### 17 me to, to take into account the glazing issue. 

### 18 MR. TUBBS: But what we can do, Bill, is 

### 19 look at the thread stress that matches up to the 

### 20 strains that we've measured. And so if it's -- because 

### 21it's bound to be some kind of a pressure influence, or 

### 22 a further -- maybe further reducing the interference 

### 23 fit. I don't know what the effect really is, but we 

### 24 can match that and say that's a strain down at the 

### 25 threads that's either within limits or is going toJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 100 1 produce a failure. 

### 2 MR. GILLESPIE: Bill, I don't see the need 

### 3 to do the glazed bore, simply because you have 

### 4 empirical data showing you that they do match. If we 

### 5 can show you how a normal bore works, I think the 

### 6 empirical data would stand on its own and say yeah, the 

### 7 same phenomena is affecting it. 

### 8 Now, why -- why does the glazing have 

### 9 different thermal properties or affect the heating 

### 10 different or the combustion, I don't think that that 

### 11would be as important as the fact that what's causing 

### 12 this problem is the increase in temperature in the 

### 13 engine and the cylinder and that that's -- the data 

### 14 they have shown me is kind of convincing me that -- I 

### 15 don't even want to say "kind of." It is convincing me 

### 16 that the temperature on these engines seems to be 

### 17 running higher than what people really anticipated, 

### 18 what they thought that they're getting. Even on 

### 19 engines where you are recording the temperature, the 

### 20 variation is such in the empirical data that it -- it 

### 21was very surprising to me. 

### 22 MR. VICKERS: I'm just trying to understand 

### 23 in your validation exercise, your model, how much of 

### 24 the big picture is being considered. 

### 25 MR. GILLESPIE: Currently I would say weJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 101 1 are not going to -- and please correct me, gentlemen, 

### 2 if you have any other ideas or thoughts. I don't 

### 3 believe it's needed, and I had not intended on looking 

### 4 at the glazing issue. 

### 5 MR. GARVENS: You can't, can you? 

### 6 MR. GILLESPIE: We could -- we could start 

### 7 to look at the parameters. I don't know. I'm in -- 

### 8 I'll be straight out, I don't know that much about 

### 9 glazing and the combustion and the material properties 

### 10 of the glaze surface. We could start researching it, 

### 11finding out if there's data out there and put it in. 

### 12 MR. GARVENS: You had asked about what's 

### 13 the physics, and we don't know what the physics are of 

### 14 why glazing spikes the stresses -- 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: But again, I would -- 

### 16 MR. GARVENS: -- and we would be interested 

### 17 to know. 

### 18 MR. GILLESPIE: I would -- I would want to 

### 19 go back, as Clint pointed out. 

### 20 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Well, I think we can -- 

### 21if you think physics, when you have a glazed bore, 

### 22 you've got higher blow-by, so you're not getting the 

### 23 same combustion pressures in there; therefore, you've 

### 24 got a lower stress because you're not getting the same 

### 25 pressure.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 102 1 MR. GILLESPIE: Yeah. 

### 2 MR. CROOKSHANKS: So that makes sense. The 

### 3 temperature is depending on -- on what theory you think 

### 4 it is. But there -- the temperature issue in the -- 

### 5 the rate of expansion of the aluminum versus the steel, 

### 6 we know that, there's a definite difference there, and 

### 7 we know that this seal band interference based on the 

### 8 pre-load placed there, that you can -- at some point 

### 9 there's some temperature that's going to cause that, 

### 10 whatever that seal band is, to go away. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: One of -- 

### 12 MR. GARVENS: Oil -- 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: One of -- 

### 14 MR. GARVENS: -- is getting in the seal 

### 15 band. 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: Right. One of the bottom line 

### 17 things that you have to come away with this is when you 

### 18 take a look at these cylinders, somebody from 

### 19 Continental Motors was pretty dadburned smart. You 

### 20 know, they didn't have all the -- the capability that 

### 21we have today. But back in the day, somebody did 

### 22 enough testing that they were able to -- to set up a -- 

### 23 some limits. 

### 24 MR. GARVENS: Right. It's amazing that 460 

### 25 is the --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 103 1MR. TUBBS: It's amazing. 

### 2MR. GARVENS: -- design limit and it's 

### 3exactly what we are seeing -- 

### 4MR. TUBBS: Yeah. 

### 5MR. GARVENS: -- as the inflection point. 

### 6And it's not -- you know, we keep increasing 

### 7temperature. 

### 8MR. GILLESPIE: And back then -- and back 

### 9then, they probably did do testing like you are 

### 10showing. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Oh yes. Yes. Carl Goulet and 

### 12Paul Eberle and those guys tested all the time. They 

### 13were running a lot of tests. 

### 14MR. SHARON: Certainly in the 

### 15temperatures -- and maybe Clint can answer this. In 

### 16the last four or five years, what are operates doing 

### 17now to keep the temperatures down? I mean, is there 

### 18any -- 

### 19MR. CROOKSHANKS: We're not aware of 

### 20anything, you know. In fact, this whole temperature 

### 21thing I guess came about because we wrote a 

### 22recommendation, we said, hey, there's something going 

### 23on here, we're not even sure what it is, and we 

### 24suggested to Jimmy and the rest of the folks that you 

### 25really need to do some testing, develop some kind of aJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 104 1 rig, this fatigue test rig, you know, to figure out 

### 2 what the root cause is. And we threw that back to them 

### 3 to say show us what you think it is. And so this -- 

### 4 MR. SHARON: This is your meeting with Mark 

### 5 Rumizen and -- 

### 6 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Yeah, way back when, you 

### 7 know. Because they always make -- you know, they're -- 

### 8 in the early days of the ideas for this recommendation, 

### 9 they said, well, we really don't know what it is, 

### 10 what's causing it, and we said, well, we agree with 

### 11you; the fact of the matter is, is we have failures and 

### 12 we need to address those failures. That's when we 

### 13 suggested to them that they develop some kind of a test 

### 14 mechanism to start gathering data. 

### 15 MR. SHARON: But nothing's been put out to 

### 16 the general public about that particularly, right? 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Not really. But one of the 

### 18 things that has happened, and it very well may be a 

### 19 mitigating effect for the number of failures that we 

### 20 are seeing and I talked to the people from JPI, and 

### 21they suggested to me that they believe that between all 

### 22 of the current engine monitoring systems, that probably 

### 23 a half or more of the general aviation airplanes today 

### 24 have engine monitoring systems. They're putting 

### 25 them -- more and more and more are being sold. TheyJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 105 1 say they are just scaling that based on their sales. 

### 2 MR. PRIESTER: So have you tried to find 

### 3 out, of the failed cylinders that you do have, did any 

### 4 of those come off of aircraft that were equipped with 

### 5 such systems? 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: I have not been able to -- when 

### 7 we really got started into this, you know, remember, 

### 8 most of these things failed back in the earlier days 

### 9 and we were -- we were not paying as close attention as 

### 10 we should have. 

### 11MR. GARVENS: But, I mean, your idea is 

### 12 very good and it's something that -- 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Oh yeah. 

### 14 MR. GARVENS: -- we will do -- 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: We will. 

### 16 MR. GARVENS: -- and make sure that we 

### 17 can -- 

### 18 MR. SHARON: Well, that -- 

### 19 MR. GARVENS: -- do anything we can to 

### 20 collect that data -- 

### 21MR. GILLESPIE: Well, and I think -- 

### 22 MR. GARVENS: -- but we haven't done it 

### 23 yet. 

### 24 MR. SHARON: That -- well, that's where I 

### 25 was lead -- I was -- where I was going with theJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 106 1 temperature. If nothing's been changed particularly in 

### 2 the last four or five years to monitor the temperature 

### 3 and it's -- and, granted, some of your cylinders are 

### 4 going on newer aircraft that have more sophisticated -- 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: Sure. 

### 6 MR. SHARON: -- monitoring, but a lot of 

### 7 them are still going on older aircraft that don't; yet, 

### 8 we haven't had any failures. So. And you -- 

### 9 MR. CROOKSHANKS: I think that gets to a 

### 10 different reason that maybe is coming later. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 12 MR. CROOKSHANKS: At least from what 

### 13 they've presented to us. The reason that there's no 

### 14 failures today or in the last 18 months is because of 

### 15 some -- you know, they've done something to mitigate 

### 16 the temperature effects. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 18 MR. CROOKSHANKS: So there's still 

### 19 temperature effects, but they've mitigated them. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Well, and the older cylinders 

### 21got through their -- if there was such a thing as 

### 22 infant mortality, which means that they had break-in 

### 23 issues and they -- and they created the failures or 

### 24 they were able to get on through and the engines 

### 25 finally broke in and they're running fine andJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 107 1 everything is going good, and are they -- you know, 

### 2 they -- they haven't had any more of the significant 

### 3 overheat conditions, which we do know it does -- does 

### 4 occur. 

### 5 MR. GARVENS: So that there's -- I mean, 

### 6 specifically on the question of has there been new 

### 7 information or new campaigns, there's -- in tab 18 is 

### 8 Teledyne's Top Care Program which emphasizes and was a 

### 9 campaign, in our opinion, on their behalf to say they 

### 10 recognized overtemperature as a critical risk and they 

### 11promoted you better take care of your cylinders, right? 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 13 MR. GARVENS: Did -- somebody who knows it 

### 14 better than me. But if you read that, that's what it 

### 15 says. And we, you know, took that to heart recently 

### 16 and published our 12-2 -- 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: 12-2. 

### 18 MR. GARVENS: -- which describes 

### 19 specifically how to identify instances of 

### 20 overtemperature and describes the dangers of 

### 21overtemperature and glazed cylinder bores, and we are 

### 22 trying to do our part in terms of, you know, 

### 23 highlighting to the general industry the risks that are 

### 24 associated with it, that there is a red line on your 

### 25 machine --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 108 1 MR. DENTON: 13. 

### 2 MR. GARVENS: -- and it's critical. 

### 3 MR. DENTON: Section 13, by the way. 

### 4 MR. PRIESTER: So -- so let me ask the 

### 5 fundamental question: How easy is it for an 

### 6 unsuspecting pilot to do something to cause the engine 

### 7 to be at 460 or above, completely regardless of if I 

### 8 had a gauge of any type or even measured the parameter, 

### 9 what could a pilot -- how easy is it for a pilot to get 

### 10 himself in a position where he's going to cause the 

### 11engine to actually run at 460 or above? I'm told 

### 12 that -- I'm told that it's very difficult to make these 

### 13 engines run above 420 absent some sort of anomaly. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: Well, you know -- 

### 15 MR. PRIESTER: I mean, we are -- 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: -- this is going to be 

### 17 anecdotal, but let -- just let me just go on and say 

### 18 that in our -- in our own airplane, we were flying that 

### 19 for several years, our 414, we went out and bought a 

### 20 JPI monitoring system and put it in our airplane and 

### 21the very first flight it flashed overtemp climbing out 

### 22 probably at around 12 to 14,000 feet, and I climbed to 

### 23 21 and it overtemped so I brought it back in. 

### 24 Discussions with the manufacturer of the 

### 25 system, we went back then and -- and calibrated the --Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 109 1 both of them, our existing CHT system and the JPI 

### 2 system using our test cell calibration equipment, and 

### 3 the JPI system was within a couple of degrees. Our 

### 4 factory CHT system in our 414 read almost 50 degrees 

### 5 optimistic, and that's what I had been flying for the 

### 6 last -- 

### 7 MR. GILLESPIE: Meaning lower. 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: It was reading lower. 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: It was reading in the -- in the 

### 11390 to 400 degree range, to 410 in a climb and -- and I 

### 12 was actually running 460 or above. And -- 

### 13 MR. PRIESTER: You're say -- you're saying 

### 14 routinely these engines are being operated above 460. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: I wouldn't say routinely, but 

### 16 I'd say very -- they are running up close to 460 and 

### 17 occasionally they are going over 460. And -- 

### 18 MR. PRIESTER: But you don't have any data 

### 19 to put on the table to show it. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Well, I mean, we've got data 

### 21of -- 

### 22 MR. GARVENS: There's also, you know, when 

### 23 it comes to proof of heat, we haven't gotten into 

### 24 discussions or pictures of when you look at the 

### 25 cylinder there's ways that you can tell that it's beenJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 110 1 overtemperatured. 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 3 MR. GARVENS: The one that we have here 

### 4 shows that, right? 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 6 MR. GARVENS: Do you want to grab that? 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: We've got photographs coming 

### 8 up. 

### 9 MR. PRIESTER: But there's tens and tens 

### 10 and tens of thousands of aircraft out there. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 12 MR. PRIESTER: Many thousands of which have 

### 13 such systems. It would be nice if you had, you know, 

### 14 three, four, five, 10. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: Oh, absolutely. Right. I 

### 16 don't disagree. 

### 17 MR. PRIESTER: And it would seem that it's 

### 18 not that difficult to collect that data from the field. 

### 19 Is that difficult? 

### 20 MR. GARVENS: Well, so, we'll try and -- 

### 21MR. TUBBS: Well, and in fact -- 

### 22 MR. GARVENS: -- we expect to be able to 

### 23 get it. 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: All -- we've changed all of 

### 25 our -- the people that are working with the people outJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 111 1 in the field now have a checklist to go through that 

### 2 they do, and they include all of that. They are asking 

### 3 do you have an engine monitoring system, what 

### 4 temperatures were you running, what phases of flight. 

### 5 They are going through and asking those questions now. 

### 6 So we will -- we're getting that information. 

### 7 MR. THOMPSON: Have y'all looked into -- in 

### 8 the SDR database I found a head separation in March of 

### 9 '12. Are y'all aware of that one? Have you looked 

### 10 into it? 

### 11MR. TUBBS: What is it? No. 

### 12 MR. THOMPSON: It's one of your cylinders, 

### 13 serial number 47038. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: What kind of a cylinder is it? 

### 15 MR. THOMPSON: Let's see here. IO520F. 

### 16 631397, March of '12. Just a -- it's a separation. 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: I'm not aware of that. 

### 18 MR. GARVENS: We do focus on trying to 

### 19 validate and verify all of that data, so we can't 

### 20 really do that now, but we -- 

### 21MR. CROOKSHANKS: Well, it should be in the 

### 22 book, right? 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: It should be in the book. 

### 24 MR. CROOKSHANKS: If it happened -- if it 

### 25 happened last March, it should be in this book, right?Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 112 1 MR. THOMPSON: Yeah, but, I mean -- 

### 2 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Because this is current 

### 3 of -- as of -- 

### 4 MR. DENTON: That's Continental 

### 5 Manufacturing. 

### 6 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Would you guys have -- 

### 7 I -- at some point I think we've got -- 

### 8 MR. DENTON: Yeah, we -- we've got our -- 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. 

### 10 (Unintelligible overspeak) 

### 11MR. HAKALA: I just wanted to make one 

### 12 comment. About six months ago, see, I also worked with 

### 13 Alcar in San Antonio and they manufacture temperature 

### 14 measuring equipment for not only ETT but cylinder head, 

### 15 but Al Hunt there, he pointed out that back in the '70s 

### 16 a lot of the single engine Cessnas had only a 

### 17 Thermistor; in other words, it wasn't a thermocouple 

### 18 but it was a -- 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: That's right. 

### 20 MR. HAKALA: It's just a little coil of 

### 21wire. It's actually a resistor. And that's 

### 22 calibrated. But those have a poor history on giving 

### 23 you real -- an accurate temperature. 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. They are very accurate 

### 25 when they are new, but as they age with the connectionsJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 113 1 in the wires, they build up resistance and it changes. 

### 2 And in fact, that's what we have in our -- in our 414 

### 3 and our 421 both have Thermistors and the other gauges 

### 4 also now. 

### 5 MR. GILLESPIE: And the Thermistor was 

### 6 showing 50 degrees low. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 8 MR. HAKALA: And then the peculiarities, on 

### 9 an annual inspection of an airplane, okay, they have to 

### 10 calibrate the air speed and the altimeter, but there's 

### 11no requirement to ever check the calibration of the 

### 12 temperature. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Absolutely none. And we 

### 14 were -- we were a part of that fat, dumb and happy with 

### 15 our own airplanes. Our RV8 has better monitoring than 

### 16 almost anything out there because you can put anything 

### 17 in there you want. But, well, that's -- that's a 

### 18 little off the point. 

### 19 Let's -- I need -- I need to get on to what 

### 20 we're -- you know, with all of this information, what 

### 21we're thinking and where we want to go with it. 

### 22 MR. GARVENS: Right. Is this a good 

### 23 transition point? 

### 24 MR. STOLLER: Ready for a break? 

### 25 MR. DENTON: Go to lunch?Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 114 1 MR. TUBBS: It's a good transition point. 

### 2 Why don't we break and come back in an hour. 

### 3 MR. SHARON: That will work. 

### 4 MR. TUBBS: All right. Come back at 

### 5 1 o'clock. 

### 6 MR. SHARON: How much more do you actually 

### 7 have on your agenda today? How much time do you need, 

### 8 I guess. 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: I can -- I can finish my 

### 10 presentation in 10 minutes, but it will probably take 

### 11two hours with questions. 

### 12 MR. SHARON: Is that it, or -- 

### 13 MR. GARVENS: I think we'll probably have 

### 14 an hour and a half after lunch. 

### 15 MR. SHARON: Okay. 

### 16 (Break from 11:51 a.m. until 1:31 p.m.) 

### 17 MR. DENTON: Jimmy, we will move on to the 

### 18 next slide. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Okay. Move on to the next one. 

### 20 Okay. What we -- what we believe, that the 

### 21analysis that we have conducted so far supports the 

### 22 following position. We think that the 631397 is safe 

### 23 when operated within limits and even with a margin, but 

### 24 we are recommending the AEC inspection and removal at 

### 25 TO for those pre-April 2006 cylinders. And this isJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 115 1 really an expansion of our Mandatory Service Bulletin 

### 2 06-2 through into the middle of April of '06. And the 

### 3 rationale for that is that we are not able to validate 

### 4 or verify the assembly parameters on that group of 

### 5 cylinders. 

### 6 And then all of the cylinders that were 

### 7 manufactured with less than 11-thousandths inch 

### 8 interference, the rationale there is that our testing 

### 9 shows that 10-thousandths is safe, testing shows that 

### 10 even under 460 degrees, 8-thousandths is safe as far as 

### 11interference fits are concerned, but this gives us a 

### 12 margin of safety and we think that that would be a 

### 13 reasonable approach. 

### 14 But one thing that we would like to do is 

### 15 to give credit for the inspections for anybody that has 

### 16 the full engine monitoring, because with full engine 

### 17 monitoring you can monitor the cylinder temperatures 

### 18 and keep out of that high temperature operation. All 

### 19 of the current cylinder monitoring have alarms that you 

### 20 set and they flash and make you well aware of the 

### 21issues. 

### 22 Next one. 

### 23 Well, what does it tell us? What does the 

### 24 testing and all of the work that we have done so far 

### 25 tell us? They become critical if the CHT is aboveJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 116 1 published limits, and if the break-in attempt doesn't 

### 2 seal the piston rings and the cylinder bore. And I 

### 3 could add to that if there is an anomaly that creates a 

### 4 glaze, because it can be done after break-in. Break-in 

### 5 is the predominant cause for glaze and high blow-by. 

### 6 And we have to reiterate that the new assembly 

### 7 practices with the new interference fits will not 

### 8 prevent future failures. It does increase the 

### 9 tolerance. It moves it up the range a little bit. 

### 10 Next one. 

### 11The effects, though, you have to go back 

### 12 and look at it because higher interference will not 

### 13 prevent all future head-barrel separations, but it 

### 14 pushes it up into the temperature region where 

### 15 head-barrel separations may be the least of your 

### 16 worries because at those temperature operations, that's 

### 17 when you are going to have detonation, and detonation 

### 18 can quickly degenerate into pre-ignition and it can 

### 19 cause stuck valves, it can cause a lot of other 

### 20 anomalies that can be a lot worse than the cylinder 

### 21head failure. 

### 22 And let's go to the next one now. 

### 23 I wanted to kind of give you an idea of 

### 24 what the issues are with high cylinder operations and 

### 25 how we know about it. What do we look for when we getJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 117 1 cylinders in and we say these things have been running 

### 2 hot? And these are the types of things that we look 

### 3 for: 

### 4 The cylinder in the middle, the barrel, 

### 5 that's glaze. That's what glaze can look like. 

### 6 Sometimes it's just spotty, but sometimes it covers a 

### 7 good part of the cylinder bore. Whenever you run 

### 8 glaze, you are going to see -- this is a cylinder from 

### 9 a TSI 0520 NB engine on the right and that's the way 

### 10 the cylinder looks when it has been running too hot, 

### 11and if you look under the piston, you see how black it 

### 12 is under the piston. That's one of the -- probably the 

### 13 best way to tell when a cylinder has been running too 

### 14 hot after you've got it off of an engine is to look 

### 15 under the piston, because if you've got blow-by, high 

### 16 blow-by, you're going to have cook -- you are going to 

### 17 be cooking that oil spray that is being sprayed in the 

### 18 bottom of that piston and it is going to carbonize, and 

### 19 that's the -- so you see the bottom of that piston 

### 20 shows high glaze. 

### 21How hot was that cylinder running? Well, 

### 22 I'll tell you, that one came off of our 414 right after 

### 23 we found out how hot we were operating and had been 

### 24 operating, and so we know that that cylinder was 

### 25 running over 460 degrees for an extended period ofJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 118 1 time. 

### 2 This is a dome, one of the cylinders that 

### 3 broke, and piston, and when you see this kind of 

### 4 splatter, that is detonation. That is caused by a 

### 5 detonation. In fact, that's getting very close to 

### 6 pre-ignition. What causes that? Well, it came out of 

### 7 that spark plug primarily. So you would suspect that 

### 8 there was some kind of an anomaly with the spark plug, 

### 9 a cracked insulator, a loose spark plug, something like 

### 10 that, because that can cause that to happen very 

### 11easily. 

### 12 There's a -- when you look at the rocker 

### 13 box, all you've got to do in an annual inspection is 

### 14 pull a rocker box, and if you see something like that 

### 15 you've got a problem. 

### 16 And again, there's that same kind of 

### 17 detonation that you saw in this cylinder but in a 

### 18 different cylinder that had experienced head-barrel 

### 19 separation. And can you see that, that frosty 

### 20 deposition there, that's -- what that is, is aluminum 

### 21that's been heated enough and in the combustion it 

### 22 splattered and splashed and deposited in the combustion 

### 23 chamber. 

### 24 MR. DENTON: What about the piston in the 

### 25 lower left?Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 119 1 MR. TUBBS: Well, that, that piston came 

### 2 out of that cylinder. 

### 3 MR. DENTON: And discolored, does it mean 

### 4 anything? 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: It's not -- absolutely it's 

### 6 discolored, but the other thing you can see is it was 

### 7 starting to -- the blow-by had gotten so severe that it 

### 8 was actually torching the side of the piston. 

### 9 MR. STOLLER: Melting away. 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: It was melting away. 

### 11Here are some cylinders that have been 

### 12 involved that we've pulled off of engines that were not 

### 13 running overtemperature. This is a TSI 0520 engine. 

### 14 That is what we would like to look -- like to see at 

### 15 TBO, and this is a TBO cylinder. This Lycoming 

### 16 cylinder right here came off of one of our test engines 

### 17 that went through a 400 -- over a 400-hour endurance 

### 18 and durability testing at and above limiting 

### 19 temperature. Again there's the pistons, and you can 

### 20 see that, yeah, they've got a little dark in them, but 

### 21they're nothing like the piston on the previous page. 

### 22 That's what we see on an engine that has been running 

### 23 at CHT limits. 

### 24 Ty and I worked in a teardown a couple of 

### 25 weeks ago where we pulled an engine down that had halfJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 120 1 of the TBO life gone and they were better than this and 

### 2 really were -- were nice, and that's what we want to 

### 3 see, a tan underside of the piston. 

### 4 The rings, just normal wear in the rings 

### 5 sealing up, sure you're going to have something up on 

### 6 top that's going to -- you are going to see some of the 

### 7 swirls and things on the chamber, but when you see the 

### 8 skirts looking like that, then that's showing normal 

### 9 operating conditions. 

### 10 There's one just showing the piston rings. 

### 11The top compression ring is almost always worn 

### 12 completely across the face. The second oil ring is 

### 13 typically only from a third to a half of the wear 

### 14 across the face of the ring. Remember, the rings are 

### 15 tapered with about a 1-and-a-half degree taper on the 

### 16 face of the ring except for the scraper ring which is 

### 17 down below the pin. With a 1-and-a-half degree, that's 

### 18 to help you break in. It's just like, you know, the 

### 19 sharp edge will wear down faster and so we want a sharp 

### 20 edge to wear round so that we get the ring to seal, and 

### 21when it seals properly you will see about a third to a 

### 22 half of the second ring will show a shiny area and the 

### 23 rest will not show any contact. If that second ring is 

### 24 worn all the way across and if you reach your fingers 

### 25 under the bottom of it and feel a little lip sharp edgeJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 121 1- careful, you can cut yourself - then you've got high 

### 2blow-by. 

### 3Well, these are the type things that we 

### 4were asked about before and I just want to go through 

### 5them quickly. These things do cause overheating. 

### 6Induction. Mixture control. There is a lot of 

### 7controversy associated with mixture control right now, 

### 8and I'll say categorically that operating lean of peak 

### 9is benign as far as cylinders are concerned. Lean of 

### 10peak does not hurt cylinders. On the other end, 

### 11getting to lean of peak can really be a serious 

### 12situation. And the reason is that you have to learn 

### 13where peak is. And a lot of people re-learn it every 

### 14time they fly the airplane. So they go back up and 

### 15they milk it and milk it and milk it until they get 

### 16that peak operation. And Steve Stout from Champion 

### 17Spark Plug told me that he recently flew with a guy 

### 18that took well over 10 minutes just to locate the peak 

### 19EGT running the thing at pretty good power settings, 

### 20milking it back, afraid of it, nervous, worried about 

### 21it, not realizing he was in the worst place in the 

### 22world to be before he pulled it over to the lean side. 

### 23They've got some newer techniques that can 

### 24be more beneficial where they learn the mix, learn the 

### 25fuel flow that gives you a lean of peak operation andJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 122 1 you do the big pull and pull it over to the lean of 

### 2 peak. 

### 3 Blocked injectors. We find a lot of 

### 4 blocked injectors, especially in turbocharged engines 

### 5 where there is a filter that you have a part of the 

### 6 filter breaks loose or pieces of it come out and get 

### 7 into the air side of the turbine and then go through to 

### 8 the pressure side of the fuel injector and start 

### 9 blocking some of the air holes and, boy, that changes 

### 10 things really bad. In our test cells when we have run 

### 11that under controlled conditions, we've seen 600 

### 12 degrees in a very short period of time before we could 

### 13 get off of it, with somebody sitting there monitoring 

### 14 nothing but the engine. 

### 15 And ignition timing, of course we get some 

### 16 timing, but, not only that, we get some defects that 

### 17 can be occurring. 

### 18 Loose spark plugs, broken insulators, bad 

### 19 resistors. Resistors are not as much of a problem as I 

### 20 originally thought because it turns out that you can't 

### 21statically measure the resistance of spark plugs and 

### 22 get a good determination of the airworthiness of them, 

### 23 but there are other ways to do it. 

### 24 What other ones are relevant? Well, CHT 

### 25 gauge is not required for many airplanes. We areJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 123 1 talking about the 631397 or the 520 cylinders here, but 

### 2 we've got the 65102's, the Lycoming cylinders we've 

### 3 talked about in the past, we've got all other kinds of 

### 4 engines that are operating out there in airplanes that 

### 5 are not required to have CHT gauges. And so if you 

### 6 don't have a CHT gauge, you've got no indication of 

### 7 what's happening out there. 

### 8 And then those that do have a CHT gauge, 

### 9 all of the original Cessnas, the multi-engines, those 

### 10 all came out with a resistance gauge, a Thermistor on 

### 11one cylinder on the engine. Back in the '80s we 

### 12 conducted engine testing for Continental Motors under 

### 13 contract, and -- on the Malibu with their -- with that 

### 14 BE engine, TSL520BE engine, and we produced a book 

### 15 about this thick (indicating) with the results of that 

### 16 test, and we had variations in the CHTs of well over a 

### 17 hundred degrees in an engine with a tuned induction 

### 18 from one -- from one cylinder to the other. So, you 

### 19 know, one CHT gauge just does not tell the story. And 

### 20 they don't have to be calibrated. Pete brought up 

### 21while ago that you've got to calibrate a lot of things 

### 22 on an annual, but you don't have to calibrate your CHT 

### 23 gauges ever. 

### 24 And they are not -- the mechanics are not 

### 25 really trained about break-in procedures. You know,Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 124 1 we've written documents, we go to seminars, we talk to 

### 2 mechanics at the AI seminars and try to brief and talk 

### 3 about break-in, but every year we find somebody that 

### 4 buys a set of our cylinders, puts them on an engine and 

### 5 sits them and runs them on the ground for over an hour 

### 6 before they ever fly the airplane, and that's a formula 

### 7 for disaster. It still happens and we need to work on 

### 8 that, in that arena. 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: Since pictures can be hard to 

### 10 see the indicators of overtemperature, we brought one. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: The issues of break-in and CHT 

### 12 gauges is a difficult one for us to overcome. I think 

### 13 that the industry is making some advantages -- or some 

### 14 advances, but there are still issues. 

### 15 MR. STOLLER: That's probably the best. 

### 16 See the blackened area? 

### 17 MR. TUBBS: Is that one of ours or -- 

### 18 MR. GILLESPIE: You have looked at not just 

### 19 your cylinders and your heads, but numerous -- 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Oh yes. 

### 21MR. GILLESPIE: -- industry-wide, and I 

### 22 think you want to emphasize that. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: We do. And -- 

### 24 MR. STOLLER: Let me, to start off, they're 

### 25 more new than repairing in the test, but used to get toJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 125 1 300 a day in the shop, we're down to about 35 cylinders 

### 2 a day arriving for repair every single day. 

### 3 MR. GARVENS: What about installation, 

### 4 Jimmy, cowling? 

### 5 MR. TUBBS: Well, installation is -- is a 

### 6 big issue because of the baffle, and part -- typically 

### 7 we find on cylinder head temperatures about 10 degrees 

### 8 to 20 degrees CHT difference with a 1 -- with 1-inch 

### 9 gap in your baffles. And so as the baffles get older, 

### 10 if they go through the annuals and they don't go back 

### 11and really put the baffles back in good shape, the 

### 12 baffles have a tendency to crack. A lot of the baffles 

### 13 are made out of 2024-T3 and that's a material that 

### 14 cracks pretty readily. There are some better -- better 

### 15 alloys for that, but people haven't found them. It 

### 16 seems like instead of going with a -- something that 

### 17 doesn't crack as bad, they still go with a 2024-T3. 

### 18 It's the most -- it's easiest to find out in the field. 

### 19 And they crack and pieces break out of them due to 

### 20 vibration, and that creates a serious problem for us. 

### 21MR. GARVENS: Anything to say about that 

### 22 there was pink discoloration? 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: Well, we see a lot of pink. In 

### 24 fact, I don't know whether that cylinder has it or not, 

### 25 but we see a lot of them that have a very unusual pinkJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 126 1 tinge to the cylinders where they've been overheated, 

### 2 especially Continentals. Lycomings just burn off the 

### 3 paint and turn kind of a frosty silver. But on the 

### 4 Continentals they turn a color not quite that vivid but 

### 5 that kind of a color, and we have taken scrapings and 

### 6 sent them into the lab and they tell us that most of it 

### 7 is lead, but we don't know where the lead is coming 

### 8 from. So that's maybe -- Derek, have you seen that 

### 9 pink? 

### 10 MR. NASH: Just a couple of times. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: Yeah. 

### 12 MR. NASH: Rarely. 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: It's not a lot, but we do see 

### 14 it, and we don't know what the pink really is. 

### 15 MR. GILLESPIE: I think one of the 

### 16 important factors is they are not finding it on their 

### 17 cylinders and on their heads, but rather, on 

### 18 Continental's, on all of the different OEMs as well as 

### 19 theirs, they are finding the overtemperatures. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 21MR. GILLESPIE: And you haven't quantified 

### 22 it yet. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: No. 

### 24 MR. GILLESPIE: Right. But you are finding 

### 25 that across the spectrum.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 127 1 MR. TUBBS: You know, we have not tried to 

### 2 document everybody else's cylinder problems. That just 

### 3 hasn't been a focus of ours in years past, and we only 

### 4 do it now because it, you know, it gives us a direction 

### 5 to -- 

### 6 MR. GILLESPIE: More data. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: -- to look. More data. Some 

### 8 of the factors, we saw some really -- we saw some 

### 9 really high Continental cylinder failures in the past 

### 10 years and one of the factors that I am fairly sure is a 

### 11part of the rationale is that we had a lot more chrome 

### 12 cylinder bores in the past. 

### 13 Now, many of you probably aren't old enough 

### 14 to remember when we had the channel chrome process for 

### 15 cylinders, but we -- there were quite a number of us in 

### 16 the business that were doing channel chrome, and 

### 17 channel chrome is a very, very durable cylinder bore 

### 18 coating and it keeps it from corroding. 

### 19 The problem with channel chrome, it is 

### 20 extremely difficult to break in. And -- and oil 

### 21burners were a real problem. Probably one of our 

### 22 biggest issues back in the day were oil burners, and we 

### 23 did channel chrome cylinders for well over 50 years. 

### 24 There were a lot of the head-barrel separations back in 

### 25 that time and we just didn't know what to look for. WeJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 128 1 now know that the root cause is overheat operation. 

### 2 Changing is -- is kind of difficult, and that's the 

### 3 next direction we want to go. 

### 4 Next one. 

### 5 We've held some discussions with Small 

### 6 Airplane Directorate several times, we are on some 

### 7 committees with Earl Lawrence, and that gives us a 

### 8 venue to spout a little bit. So we've done that. And 

### 9 but he's -- he's been very clear that mandating older 

### 10 airplanes to be retrofitted with CHT gauges is just not 

### 11going to be practical. But they do believe it would 

### 12 be -- and they believe it would be difficult to impose 

### 13 calibration requirements on these older airplanes also, 

### 14 but there may be a way to address it on the new 

### 15 airplanes. 

### 16 I don't know how many of you here are aware 

### 17 of the F-44 committee that is -- that is working on an 

### 18 update or a new Part 23 and that is going on right now. 

### 19 Ty and I are on the power plant side of that committee. 

### 20 And so that -- this is one of the areas that we are 

### 21going to be certain that we are able to address unless 

### 22 we get voted down, because everything has to be voted 

### 23 on, but this is an area that we are going to be 

### 24 passionate about is to get CHT systems as a requirement 

### 25 under the new Part 23.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 129 1 Specifics. We're going to -- we suggest 

### 2 the following with a draft service bulletin or -- yeah, 

### 3 Mandatory Service Bulletin, and we're going to 

### 4 recommend a repetitive inspection and removal at 

### 5 overhaul those cylinders produced since end of MSB 06-2 

### 6 up through April. We're not changing 06-2 until we are 

### 7 told to because we have had some conferences and been 

### 8 advised that we shouldn't be changing 06-2. We don't 

### 9 have the assembly data on those cylinders so we can't 

### 10 segregate those cylinders into any kind of groups. 

### 11MR. VICKERS: What kind of inspections? 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: Mainly looking for the crack, 

### 13 where the cracks -- where they are, where they progress 

### 14 from around the cylinder between the fins. You do it 

### 15 with a low pressure with a spray bottle, catch them 

### 16 before they -- 

### 17 MR. NASH: Bubble test. 

### 18 MR. TUBBS: Yeah. Bubble test. 

### 19 And we recommend a repetitive inspection 

### 20 and removal at overhaul of the cylinders produced since 

### 212006 with less than 11-thousandths seal band 

### 22 interference, and that shows that that would provide us 

### 23 an adequate margin of safety for temperature 

### 24 excursions, actually give us a margin even beyond 460 

### 25 degrees. But we would like to give credit for engineJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 130 1 monitors, which would mean, instead of a 50-hour 

### 2 inspection, they could do the inspections at annuals. 

### 3 What we are going to do even better and 

### 4 more is to provide owners/operators with detailed 

### 5 information about high cylinder temps, glazed cylinder 

### 6 bores, and that's our Service Information Bulletin 12-2 

### 7 and I believe there is a copy in your -- 

### 8 MR. DENTON: That is correct, there is a 

### 9 copy in the notebook. 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: I don't know what tab that is. 

### 11MR. HARMON: 13. 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: 13. 

### 13 MR. HARMON: And was this issue 12/4/2012, 

### 14 it was already issued? 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: Yes. If y'all notice, it's not 

### 16 an FAA-approved document. It's just our own approval. 

### 17 And -- 

### 18 MR. GILLESPIE: She just asked to go back. 

### 19 MS. COX: I did have a question. How are 

### 20 you going to tell people if they have an 11 seal band 

### 21interference or not? 

### 22 MR. TUBBS: That's a good question. I like 

### 23 that. We're going to give them serial numbers. 

### 24 MR. STOLLER: Specific serial numbers. 

### 25 MR. GILLESPIE: They've got the data forJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 131 1 those. 

### 2 MR. TUBBS: We've got the data. 

### 3 MR. GILLESPIE: And those that they do not 

### 4 have data for, they have already made the 

### 5 recommendation that they be inspected. 

### 6 MR. DENTON: We have a draft of that. I 

### 7 guess we could pass that around now. Fairly short. 

### 8 MS. COX: I had another question, too. You 

### 9 haven't talked yet about the dome radius failure. 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: We slightly went through it and 

### 11did say we did have some of the dome radius failures, 

### 12 and we did -- and I mentioned - at least I think I did, 

### 13 in my mind I did - that we changed the radius from 30 

### 14 to 45-thousandths I believe in the middle of 2004 and 

### 15 there have been no failures of cylinders produced since 

### 16 that time in that -- in that area. There have been no 

### 17 failures of cylinders with the higher radius, the 

### 18 larger radius. 

### 19 The FAA has a bully pulpit and can make a 

### 20 difference. Now that we have identified, at least from 

### 21our perspective we have identified that high cylinder 

### 22 temperatures is a valid -- well, is a real safety 

### 23 issue, and so an advisory -- we don't know that the 

### 24 NTSB ever has any kind of advisory, but if they do have 

### 25 a venue that they put out discussing safety issues,Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 132 1 then I just throw it up there and say, well, maybe the 

### 2 NTSB could also help in advertising or getting the word 

### 3 out, and the root cause information should be shared. 

### 4 And we're working on the publication, so we've got the 

### 5 12-2. 

### 6 I don't know whether you-all saw the -- 

### 7 Mike Busch did put out an article. He called us and 

### 8 talked to us about this a while back. He wrote that 

### 9 Separation Anxiety bulletin that came out in Cessna 

### 10 Pilot Magazine earlier and came out last month in the 

### 11Sport Aviation, which has a really large distribution, 

### 12 and that, we think, is the kind of thing that can help, 

### 13 and we also think that's one of the reasons why more 

### 14 and more airplanes are getting engine monitoring 

### 15 systems installed. 

### 16 MR. THOMPSON: Just on this handout, this 

### 17 list of serial numbers. 

### 18 MR. TUBBS: That's the -- those are -- 

### 19 those are under 11-thousandths. 

### 20 MR. THOMPSON: Under 11-thousandths. 

### 21MS. COX: The failures that you have had so 

### 22 far would all fall into this? 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: Yes. You know, again, we had 

### 24 originally prepared this. This was one that we were 

### 25 trying to give the NTSB before we got into a lot ofJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 133 1 discussion here a few weeks ago. They could promote a 

### 2 technical root cause -- root cause based approach to 

### 3 the safety issue and could encourage root cause issues 

### 4 to be provided to the aviation public by the FAA. We 

### 5 would like to see maybe A-12-7 restructured a bit to 

### 6 address the root cause problems with what we know now. 

### 7 I don't know whether that's possible, but that is our 

### 8 point. 

### 9 I reiterate that last week in our meeting 

### 10 with the NTSB, Mr. DeLisi suggested that the changes to 

### 11the safety recommendation are better served by the FAA 

### 12 coming back with these points than us, that they -- 

### 13 their safety recommendation went to the FAA and the 

### 14 response needs to come back from there. 

### 15 And that's all I have. 

### 16 MR. DENTON: I just want to go back to if 

### 17 there are any comments or questions before we -- I 

### 18 guess there's a couple of more slides to go over. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: And I want to make sure that 

### 20 this is in line, Clint, with what we -- is this your 

### 21understanding? Does it -- it follows -- 

### 22 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Yeah. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: Okay. 

### 24 MR. CROOKSHANKS: You know, I think -- I 

### 25 guess at the end, we can -- I can talk about where weJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 134 1 are and what we expect as far as our recommendation 

### 2 goes. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: All right. 

### 4 MR. DENTON: Okay. Just to finish with 

### 5 that. 

### 6 MR. GARVENS: Go -- go back to it. 

### 7 MR. DENTON: Okay. 

### 8 MR. GARVENS: Since it is sort of a summary 

### 9 of what we were supposed to learn, I mean, Jimmy 

### 10 summarized it, I don't know if we need the -- so we did 

### 11this testing recommended by the NTSB. It clearly 

### 12 showed the root cause is out-of-temperature operation, 

### 13 it validated that the cylinders are safe when operated 

### 14 legally as designed, and we made this similar 

### 15 presentation to the NTSB earlier, which received a 

### 16 positive response at the time. 

### 17 MR. DENTON: I guess to go back through the 

### 18 agenda again, we've covered all the way up to the 

### 19 cylinder safety program presentation and we've got -- 

### 20 you know, touched on the FEA. 

### 21I don't know, Don, if you've got your 

### 22 simulation ready or if you want to do that now. 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: I could do that. I don't 

### 24 know. It's -- it's -- I would rather say we do that 

### 25 after, if people are interested in seeing it.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 135 1 MR. TUBBS: Okay. 

### 2 MR. DENTON: Okay. 

### 3 MR. GILLESPIE: It's kind of a just a show 

### 4 and tell, but if they are interested, yes, I can pull 

### 5 it up. 

### 6 MR. DENTON: Okay. So that's -- 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: Is it -- is it really going 

### 8 to -- right now, will it -- how much will it add to our 

### 9 understanding? I think for the few of us that are -- 

### 10 for -- for most of us engineers it's going to be pretty 

### 11good, but it might not be that interesting to the legal 

### 12 side of the -- 

### 13 MR. GILLESPIE: I just think what we are 

### 14 really talking about here is the temperature and the 

### 15 cause of the -- of the cracking on the heads and I can 

### 16 show this, but it's really we're talking about your 

### 17 data and what we have shown already, and the curves 

### 18 that are showing at 460 going up to 520 you're 

### 19 starting -- you're starting to get that inflection 

### 20 point where you are increasing, and that's the data. 

### 21That's the bottom line data that they are talking about 

### 22 in this, is that the cracks aren't coming about due to 

### 23 some other event, it is due to the temperature that the 

### 24 engines are running at. And as he has discussed 

### 25 there's all kinds of reasons possibly for that, but theJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 136 1 bottom line for them is the temperature is causing 

### 2 this. 

### 3 MR. GARVENS: I just want to verify, Jimmy, 

### 4 on the question that Fran asked earlier: 

### 5 The way you phrase it was all failures that 

### 6 we have seen would be covered by that Service Bulletin; 

### 7 is that what you intended to ask? 

### 8 MS. COX: That list of serial numbers, if 

### 9 that -- they would be included in this? 

### 10 MR. TUBBS: Not all of them, no. 

### 11MR. CROOKSHANKS: All the failures are 

### 12 included in the serial number range in our 

### 13 recommendation. 

### 14 MS. COX: But not on this list. 

### 15 MR. GARVENS: And we don't intend to say -- 

### 16 like Jimmy said, there's situations, operational 

### 17 situations where you can't protect against. If it's at 

### 18 650 degrees, the head will slip off, and if it's at 600 

### 19 degrees, it's a -- it will severely compromise the 

### 20 cylinder. 

### 21MR. DENTON: If it is operated outside the 

### 22 design limits. 

### 23 MR. GILLESPIE: And this is where they have 

### 24 also provided, as Jimmy says, the margin. By not just 

### 25 saying, well, we're going to not look at anythingJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 137 1 within the design limits, they're looking at anything 

### 2 below 11-thousandths interference. So even engines 

### 3 that are good, they're saying, hey, we'll even look at 

### 4 some of them, a lot of them that are within design, but 

### 5 because they may have been operated overtemperature 

### 6 we'll even look at those. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: Okay. Don Kenton was -- it was 

### 8 strongly suggested that we perform a Weibull type 

### 9 statistical analysis a couple of years ago to try to 

### 10 predict the failure rate going forward and so we 

### 11subscribed to that, I frankly not even knowing what a 

### 12 Weibull analysis was at the time. And so Don conducted 

### 13 some -- a Weibull analysis and then used also the 

### 14 Crow-AMSAA technique to try to predict the failures for 

### 15 the future, and the analysis showed that we should by 

### 16 this time, between -- after 6-2 or from cylinders 

### 17 produced since the -- I believe the end of 2006, today 

### 18 we should have had 35 cylinders fail or 34 cylinders 

### 19 fail. Crow-AMSAA predicted that we would have about 12 

### 20 of those cylinders fail. As of the time that we walked 

### 21in this morning, as far as we knew, we had zero. And 

### 22 so Don went back and wrote another -- the other report 

### 23 that basically acknowledges that there are factors that 

### 24 you just can't put into that kind of an analysis and 

### 25 that the analysis did not correctly predict theJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 138 1 failures, and I think his report is in the -- 

### 2 MR. GARVENS: Tab 23. 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: Correct. And basically in his 

### 4 inimitable way, says it just didn't work, the analysis 

### 5 is not accurate. 

### 6 MS. COX: That doesn't match this post 6-2 

### 7 report. 

### 8 MR. GARVENS: What do you mean? 

### 9 MR. CROOKSHANKS: No, these are the 

### 10 anticipated. This is the Weibull analysis of the 

### 11anticipated failure. 

### 12 MS. COX: So that's from this point 

### 13 forward? It doesn't include these that are on the 

### 14 list? 

### 15 MR. CROOKSHANKS: This is a statistical 

### 16 estimate of what should happen based upon the Weibull 

### 17 parameters that he presented a year ago when we were 

### 18 here. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Right. So from a year ago to 

### 20 now. 

### 21MR. DENTON: To now. This is -- 

### 22 MR. CROOKSHANKS: It should be like this 

### 23 but it's not. 

### 24 MR. TUBBS: I'm sorry, I was not clear, and 

### 25 I'm sorry, but his report talks about from the timeJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 139 1 that he presented the report to what was anticipated to 

### 2 have happened, and the anticipation in that time frame 

### 3 was that we would have certain numbers of failures. 

### 4 MS. COX: That only covers the past year; 

### 5 is that -- 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: I believe that's about right. 

### 7 MR. GARVENS: His first report was dated 

### 8 what? 

### 9 MR. CROOKSHANKS: These are predicted 

### 10 numbers. These have nothing to do with what happened 

### 11in actuality. 

### 12 MR. DENTON: It's saying if you use a 

### 13 Weibull analysis it would predict that there would be 

### 14 approximately 17 failures of 6-2 and, you know, 18 

### 15 failures of post 6-2 in this one -- in this year. 

### 16 There would be, you know, if you used the Crow-AMSAA 

### 17 method, there would be eight failures of 6-2 and seven 

### 18 failures of post 6-2. And there were in fact zero 

### 19 failures of either. So that's basically predicted -- 

### 20 two predicted methods versus the actual is what you are 

### 21seeing on this chart. 

### 22 MR. HARMON: Would you happen to know how 

### 23 many cylinders were returned in the last year with 

### 24 cracks in that area that we are talking about? 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: We don't have any.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 140 1 MR. HARMON: You have no cylinders returned 

### 2 in the last year with cracks? 

### 3 MR. TUBBS: None. Zero. 

### 4 MR. DENTON: Correct. 

### 5 MR. HARMON: Not separated -- 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: Actually last 18 months. 

### 7 MR. HARMON: Okay. Not separated heads 

### 8 but just -- 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Not cracked, not separating 

### 10 heads -- 

### 11MR. HARMON: Warranty data, no warranty 

### 12 claims -- 

### 13 MR. TUBBS: Not in that area. Not -- not 

### 14 there. 

### 15 MR. STOLLER: Similar to we said that the 

### 16 Safety Recommendation A-12-7 should be reelevated, we 

### 17 are proposing that the same thing happen with the 

### 18 analysis behind a possible NPRM, that we are sharing 

### 19 new information, that we have discovered through our 

### 20 research this last year and we believe that recalling 

### 21and replacing cylinders would cause an unwarranted 

### 22 burden on the GA, general public, the flying public, 

### 23 affecting approximately 10,000 aircraft, that we have 

### 24 talked to some of our customers and they are very -- 

### 25 that are engine shops, and they are very concernedJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 141 1 about field removal and replacement of a large number 

### 2 of cylinders, that that would create in itself a safety 

### 3 risk. 

### 4 Can you explain, do you want to explain 

### 5 what some of the issues are with -- 

### 6 MR. TUBBS: The big -- the big issue is 

### 7 that when you unbolt the cylinders, you also remove the 

### 8 clamp-up forces on the crankcase. And this is so 

### 9 critical. When we build an engine in our shop, we will 

### 10 not assemble the engine together, the crank cases 

### 11together until we can have the cylinders on and bolted 

### 12 within a couple of hours. But just because of the fact 

### 13 that when you let things loose, bearings can shift, you 

### 14 can have -- and you have to clamp that bearing with a 

### 15 good 2,000 psi pressure to hold it in place, and you're 

### 16 totally releasing those clamp-up forces. And the 

### 17 companies that are our major customers are very 

### 18 concerned about that because a lot of times in the 

### 19 field they'll take cylinders off and let them sit for 

### 20 three or four days and then put the new cylinders back 

### 21on. There's nothing that tells you you've got either a 

### 22 time constraint or do them one at a time. You pull 

### 23 them -- they pull them all off and then put them all 

### 24 back on. And most of the time it works just fine. 

### 25 Some of the time -- sometimes it doesn't. And that's aJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 142 1 big warranty consideration for them -- for them that 

### 2 they are very concerned about. 

### 3 MR. STOLLER: And in addition, those 

### 4 cylinders were originally broken in, at least the ones 

### 5 that were installed in a large reputable engine shop, 

### 6 they were broken in in a test cell. Now these people 

### 7 are going to be attempting to break in these 

### 8 cylinders -- 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Out on the ramp. 

### 10 MR. STOLLER: -- either on the ground or 

### 11after takeoff -- 

### 12 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 13 MR. STOLLER: -- which again exposes the -- 

### 14 the cylinders to a new risk. 

### 15 MR. TUBBS: Right. Exactly. 

### 16 MR. STOLLER: Then in addition, simply 

### 17 replacing cylinders will not address what we have 

### 18 discovered and consider to be the root cause of adverse 

### 19 operating conditions; they would be installed and go 

### 20 back into the same environment they were in before. 

### 21MR. DENTON: Move back to a -- that's the 

### 22 end of our presentation. Basically come back to a 

### 23 summary of our key points: 

### 24 The fact that there have been no 

### 25 fatalities, no injuries and no accidents; the design ofJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 143 1 AEC cylinders exceeds FAA airworthiness standards; the 

### 2 manufacture of AEC cylinders is within design 

### 3 parameters or approved FAA design parameters; operating 

### 4 environment is the cause of failures; our cylinders are 

### 5 safe when operated within published operating limits; 

### 6 field replacement of cylinders causes significant 

### 7 safety risks; and head-barrel separations are an 

### 8 industry-wide issue caused by adverse operating 

### 9 conditions. 

### 10 Our meeting objectives were to prevent an 

### 11unwarranted action on the AEC 520 TITAN cylinders and 

### 12 to prevent unnecessary safety risks caused by an 

### 13 unwarranted action; also demonstrated that the root 

### 14 cause of head-barrel separation is adverse operating 

### 15 conditions; and establish that the design and 

### 16 manufacture of AEC cylinders exceeds FAA airworthiness 

### 17 standards; and we believe that there is no basis for 

### 18 removal of AEC cylinders from the field. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: It might be good maybe, Clint, 

### 20 for you to address some of this. 

### 21MR. CROOKSHANKS: Sure. So I'll just kind 

### 22 of give you our perspective from what we have seen. 

### 23 As you know, back in February we issued a 

### 24 recommendation. The recommendation asked the FAA to 

### 25 require repetitive inspections of ECI cylinderJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 144 1 assemblies produced between May '03 and October 2009 

### 2 with a serial number range going from 7709 to 52884 

### 3 that are installed on TCM model 520 and 550 engines and 

### 4 removal of those cylinder assemblies once they reached 

### 5 the engine manufacturer's recommended normal time 

### 6 in-service between overhauls. So that was our 

### 7 recommendation issued. 

### 8 We developed the recommendation throughout 

### 9 meetings with Pete, meetings with AEC, we were all on 

### 10 the same page at that time when we issued that 

### 11recommendation. 

### 12 Now there's obviously some new information 

### 13 out there. 

### 14 I will say that in my 10 years at the Board 

### 15 and in talking to the rest of the people that have been 

### 16 there, especially the folks in our Safety 

### 17 Recommendations Department that track these things, is 

### 18 we have never had an occasion where the FAA has gone 

### 19 over and above what we have recommended. They 

### 20 always -- or generally come back and say, "Well, we'll 

### 21give you almost everything you want, but not quite." 

### 22 And then we have several processes for how we go about 

### 23 classifying recommendations. 

### 24 So we get a response back from the FAA and 

### 25 we have several ways of classifying. We can approveJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 145 1 that response as an acceptable response, we can approve 

### 2 a response as an acceptable alternate response, or we 

### 3 can just say, "You know what? We don't approve and we 

### 4 don't like what you did. We ask to reconsider." If 

### 5 they don't reconsider, then we'll just close it as an 

### 6 unacceptable response. 

### 7 So there are several ways we can go about 

### 8 addressing the recommendation. 

### 9 In our mind, when -- when AEC came to us a 

### 10 couple of weeks ago, they asked us to rescind our 

### 11recommendation and we simply cannot do that. Our 

### 12 recommendation was issued to the FAA, not to AEC, so we 

### 13 don't have a process for rescinding it. We need a 

### 14 response from the FAA in order to do anything with that 

### 15 recommendation. We have an interim response from the 

### 16 FAA that says the last response said that we would have 

### 17 a draft NPRM by August 31st of 2012, and we all know 

### 18 that that hasn't happened but we are still waiting for 

### 19 that next letter from the FAA that says, hey, this is 

### 20 what we've done. 

### 21You guys as the FAA are the only people 

### 22 that can respond to our recommendation. 

### 23 Now, you could come back and say, well, we 

### 24 think, you know, we think we should do this and this 

### 25 and this, and we'll evaluate that if it meets ourJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 146 1 recommendation and classify it accordingly. 

### 2 In our mind, we've looked at all the data 

### 3 that we have and we've looked at all the cylinders 

### 4 within that serial number range. A big chunk of those 

### 5 cylinders from 7709 to thirty -- I think it's 33696, 

### 6 those are all covered by an existing Service Bulletin 

### 7 written by ECI and approved by the FAA. That Service 

### 8 Bulletin asks for repetitive inspections and then 

### 9 removal at TBO. We would sup -- we support that 

### 10 Service Bulletin but would like to see that made 

### 11mandatory through an AD, so that's -- we would like 

### 12 06-02 or 06-2 to be made mandatory repetitive 

### 13 inspections, removal at TBO. 

### 14 The following cylinders that go beyond 

### 15 that, so 33697 through 52884, are these post 6-2 

### 16 cylinders where we -- we are aware of eight failures of 

### 17 those cylinders and we still support repetitive 

### 18 inspections and removal at TBO of those cylinders, so 

### 19 basically taking the same actions that are in 6-2 and 

### 20 extending them out there to 52884. 

### 21Now with some of the new data we have from 

### 22 AEC and from their testing, they've shown that there is 

### 23 a period of time starting, I can't -- I don't have 

### 24 the -- 32884 onward where they know the assembly 

### 25 information, they track the assembly, they know theJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 147 1 interference fit and we know based on their testing 

### 2 that they've -- they've shown us the data that shows at 

### 3 anything above 11-thousandths of interference fit, even 

### 4 when operated at higher temperatures, you still have 

### 5 enough margin to not cause a fatigue crack in that 

### 6 cylinder head. So we're fully in support of maybe not 

### 7 including those cylinders. 

### 8 Those cylinders where we have a known 

### 9 interference fit and it's above this -- this limit 

### 10 where they know they can have margin, we -- maybe we 

### 11don't have to do anything there. Anything below 

### 12 11-thousandths or 11-thousandths and below, we are 

### 13 still standing by our recommendation that says we would 

### 14 like repetitive inspection and removal at TBO. 

### 15 Any questions? 

### 16 MR. VICKERS: Is any of this affected by 

### 17 cylinders that have gone through TBO, gone back, got 

### 18 reconditioned and then put back in service? 

### 19 MR. CROOKSHANKS: In our minds, if they've 

### 20 reached TBO, they should be basically scrapped. 

### 21So what happens to those that have already 

### 22 gone beyond TBO? In our mind, they're going to have 

### 23 to -- they're going to have to come out of service. 

### 24 But that's up to -- that's up to the FAA. You know, we 

### 25 are a very powerless organization. The only thing weJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 148 1 can do is make recommendations based on safety and 

### 2 that's through a lot of work on our part, this is the 

### 3 recommendation that we came up with. At the time, it 

### 4 was supported by AEC, and I think now even with the new 

### 5 data AEC supports what we would do with this 

### 6 recommendation or how we might respond to this 

### 7 recommendation with the 6-2 cylinders, the post 6-2 

### 8 cylinders and then the known assembly information. 

### 9 MR. GARVENS: I'd like to know if you guys 

### 10 agree that operating planes over their design limit is 

### 11a serious safety concern. 

### 12 MR. BENNETT: Now, why would you want a 

### 13 conclusion like that in the transcript? 

### 14 MR. GARVENS: I don't know. 

### 15 MR. CROOKSHANKS: Is it -- 

### 16 MR. GARVENS: Or we have no feedback. 

### 17 MR. GILLESPIE: No, no, you're asking a 

### 18 question. 

### 19 MR. NASH: What is the difference between 

### 20 design limit and legal limit? 

### 21MR. TUBBS: It should be design limit. 

### 22 MR. NASH: Okay. 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: Because the -- you know, the 

### 24 applicant establishes a design limit. The FAA verifies 

### 25 that and you test to it.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 149 1 MR. NASH: So that's -- 

### 2 MR. STOLLER: There's a regulatory 

### 3 requirement to operate within those limits. That was 

### 4 what we were trying to capture. 

### 5 MR. NASH: Right. But we know the pilot's 

### 6 not going to operate within legal limits; he's going to 

### 7 operate within design limits. 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: Hopefully. 

### 9 MR. NASH: Hopefully. Yes. 

### 10 MR. GILLESPIE: Does anyone have any 

### 11additional concerns? 

### 12 MR. BENNETT: I have one. Your attorney 

### 13 indicated that you would not be providing any 

### 14 proprietary data and that all information that you 

### 15 would be presenting during this meeting would 

### 16 therefore -- she had no objections to going into the 

### 17 docket, the public docket. At the start of the meeting 

### 18 you indicated you had proprietary information at tab 

### 19 22. 

### 20 MR. TUBBS: I did say that, and -- 

### 21MR. STOLLER: Can we take a look at it -- 

### 22 MR. TUBBS: Let's take a look at it. 

### 23 MR. STOLLER: -- and give an opportunity 

### 24 to -- 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: -- and we can -- maybe we canJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 150 1 just remove that. 

### 2 MR. BENNETT: Well, since you've already 

### 3 given it to us for consideration, now -- 

### 4 MR. STOLLER: Remove -- 

### 5 MR. BENNETT: -- it's going to be part of 

### 6 the record. 

### 7 MR. STOLLER: I meant remove the 

### 8 restriction. 

### 9 MR. TUBBS: Right. 

### 10 MR. STOLLER: Not remove the data. 

### 11MR. BENNETT: I would -- I would ask that 

### 12 you reevaluate whether or not that is proprietary 

### 13 information. 

### 14 MR. TUBBS: I believe that I took -- let 

### 15 me -- let's check it. I think I took the numbers off, 

### 16 obscured the numbers that were proprietary. But let me 

### 17 verify that. 

### 18 MR. BENNETT: Thank you. 

### 19 MR. SHARON: Along those same lines, will 

### 20 we get a copy of -- that is the new -- 

### 21MR. TUBBS: Yes. 

### 22 MR. SHARON: -- tab 14? 

### 23 MR. TUBBS: Absolutely. You will get -- 

### 24 MR. DENTON: You will get a copy. I've 

### 25 already made a note of that. You will get this copy.Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 151 1 MR. GILLESPIE: If you want, I have a -- if 

### 2 they'd like it now, I have a flash drive you can use to 

### 3 provide it to them. 

### 4 MR. DENTON: I need to get ... okay. 

### 5 MR. BENNETT: Jimmy, I think you said you 

### 6 also had something at tab 14 at one point as well, so 

### 7 you might want to change that. 

### 8 MR. TUBBS: I'm sorry? 

### 9 MR. BENNETT: You also mentioned something 

### 10 at tab 14. 

### 11MR. TUBBS: This is the only one that I had 

### 12 proprietary. Last night I went in and cleaned it up 

### 13 with the numbers right here. So it's now not 

### 14 proprietary. 

### 15 MR. BENNETT: It's sanitized. 

### 16 MR. TUBBS: It's sanitized. 

### 17 MR. BENNETT: So you have nothing 

### 18 proprietary in the packet. 

### 19 MR. TUBBS: Nothing proprietary. 

### 20 MR. BENNETT: Good. Thank you. 

### 21MR. MAGUIRE: What do we do with the 

### 22 material that's marked proprietary? 

### 23 MR. BENNETT. It's marked but it is not -- 

### 24 MR. HAKALA: Is it marked as proprietary? 

### 25 MR. TUBBS: What we need to do is give youJob No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 152 1 an updated first page without that disclaimer on it. 

### 2 MR. BENNETT: But your representation that 

### 3 it is not is fine for my purposes. 

### 4 MS. COX: Any more questions? Do you-all 

### 5 have anything else to present? 

### 6 MR. GILLESPIE: That is all. 

### 7 MR. TUBBS: No. 

### 8 MS. COX: Okay. We appreciate what you had 

### 9 to present, then. 

### 10 MR. STOLLER: And we appreciate everyone's 

### 11time. Thank you all very much. 

### 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25Job No. 15494 ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING February 14, 2013

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### Page 153 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) ) 

### 2 COUNTY OF TARRANT ) 

### 3 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 

### 4 I, Joseph D. Hendrick, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do hereby 

### 5 certify that the foregoing 152 pages contains a true record of the ECI/NTSB/FAA MEETING held on February 14, 

### 6 2013 at the FAA Southwest Regional Offices, 2601 Meacham Boulevard, Fort Worth, Texas. 

### 7 Certified this 21st day of February, 2013. 

### 8 9

_____________________________ 

### 10 Joseph D. Hendrick, CSR #947 Expiration Date: 12/31/14 

### 11Merit Court Reporters, LLC Firm Registration #133 

### 12 307 West 7th Street, Suite 1350 Phone: 817-336-3042 

### 13 Fax: 817-335-1203 Toll-Free: 1-800-336-4000 

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