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HELPING STUDENTS SUCCEED BY 

STRENGTHENING THE 

CARL D. PERKINS CAREER AND 

TECHNICAL EDUCATION ACT 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION 

AND THE WORKFORCE 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, MAY 17, 2016 

Serial No. 114–48 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and the Workforce 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/ 

committee.action?chamber=house&committee=education 

or 

Committee address: http://edworkforce.house.gov 

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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

JOHN KLINE, Minnesota, Chairman 

Joe Wilson, South Carolina 

Virginia Foxx, North Carolina 

Duncan Hunter, California 

David P. Roe, Tennessee 

Glenn Thompson, Pennsylvania 

Tim Walberg, Michigan 

Matt Salmon, Arizona 

Brett Guthrie, Kentucky 

Todd Rokita, Indiana 

Lou Barletta, Pennsylvania 

Joseph J. Heck, Nevada 

Luke Messer, Indiana 

Bradley Byrne, Alabama 

David Brat, Virginia 

Buddy Carter, Georgia 

Michael D. Bishop, Michigan 

Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin 

Steve Russell, Oklahoma 

Carlos Curbelo, Florida 

Elise Stefanik, New York 

Rick Allen, Georgia 

Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott, Virginia 

Ranking Member 

Rube ́n Hinojosa, Texas 

Susan A. Davis, California 

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, Arizona 

Joe Courtney, Connecticut 

Marcia L. Fudge, Ohio 

Jared Polis, Colorado 

Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, 

Northern Mariana Islands 

Frederica S. Wilson, Florida 

Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon 

Mark Pocan, Wisconsin 

Mark Takano, California 

Hakeem S. Jeffries, New York 

Katherine M. Clark, Massachusetts 

Alma S. Adams, North Carolina 

Mark DeSaulnier, California 

Juliane Sullivan, Staff Director 

Denise Forte, Minority Staff Director 

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(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on May 17, 2016 ............................................................................... 1 

Statement of Members: 

Kline, Hon. John, Chairman, Committee on Education and the Workforce 1 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 3 

Scott, Hon. Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’, Ranking Member, Committee on Education and the Workforce ............................................................................. 4 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 5 

Statement of Witnesses: 

Kaine, Hon. Tim, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia ............................................................................................................... 8 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 11 

Tse, Mr. Paul, Project Manager, Shapiro and Duncan, Inc. ......................... 14 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 17 

Bates, Mr. Jason, Manager, Toyota-Bodine Aluminum, Inc. ........................ 21 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 23 

Sullivan, Dr. Monty, President, Louisiana Community and Technical College System .................................................................................................... 31 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 33 

Additional Submissions: 

Fudge, Hon. Marcia L., a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Ohio: 

Letter dated May 3, 2016, from Partnership for 21st Century Learning P21 .................................................................................................... 72 

Letter dated May 16, 2016, from the National Education Association 

(NEA) ...................................................................................................... 67 

Thompson, Hon. Glenn, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Pennsylvania: 

Letter dated May 16, 2016, from Opportunity America ........................ 69 

Recommendations Perkins Career and Technical Education Act ......... 70 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 75 

Chairman Kline on behalf of Congressman Will Hurd, questions submitted for the record to: 

Mr. Bates ................................................................................................... 78 

Dr. Sullivan ................................................................................................ 84 

Bishop, Hon. Michael D., a Representative in Congress from the state 

of Michigan, questions submitted to Dr. Sullivan ...................................... 84 

Stefanik, Hon. Elise, a Representative in Congress from the state of 

New York, questions submitted to: 

Mr. Bates ................................................................................................... 78 

Mr. Tse ....................................................................................................... 89 

Response to questions submitted: 

Mr. Bates ................................................................................................... 81 

Dr. Sullivan ................................................................................................ 86 

Mr. Tse ....................................................................................................... 91 

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(1) 

HELPING STUDENTS SUCCEED BY 

STRENGTHENING THE CARL D. PERKINS 

CAREER AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION ACT 

Tuesday, May 17, 2016 

House of Representatives 

Committee on Education and the Workforce 

Washington, D.C. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 

2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. John Kline [chairman 

of the committee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Kline, Wilson, Foxx, Roe, Walberg, 

Salmon, Guthrie, Rokita, Heck, Messer, Byrne, Brat, Carter, 

Bishop, Grothman, Curbelo, Stefanik, Allen, Scott, Davis, Courtney, Fudge, Polis, Bonamici, Pocan, Takano, Clark, Adams, and 

DeSaulnier. 

Also Present: Representative Langevin. 

Staff Present: Janelle Belland, Coalitions and Members Services 

Coordinator; Tyler Hernandez, Deputy Communications Director; 

Amy Raaf Jones, Director of Education and Human Resources Policy; Nancy Locke, Chief Clerk; Dominique McKay, Deputy Press 

Secretary; Krisann Pearce, General Counsel; Clint Raine, TFA Fellow; James Redstone, Professional Staff Member; Alex Ricci, Legislative Assistant; Alissa Strawcutter, Deputy Clerk; Brad Thomas, 

Senior Education Policy Advisor; Tylease Alli, Minority Clerk/Intern and Fellow Coordinator; Jacque Chevalier, Minority Senior 

Education Policy Advisor; Mishawn Freeman, Minority Staff Assistant; Denise Forte, Minority Staff Director; Brian Kennedy, Minority General Counsel; Rayna Reid, Minority Education Policy 

Counsel; Phillip Tizzani, Eduction Detailee; and Katherine Valle, 

Minority Education Policy Advisor. 

Chairman KLINE. A quorum being present, the Committee on 

Education and the Workforce will come to order. 

Good morning. I would like to extend a warm welcome to our 

witnesses. We appreciate you joining us today, all of you, to discuss 

ways to strengthen career and technical education. 

It is an important conversation to have because of the critical 

role career and technical education programs play in a student’s 

education, and more importantly, in their future. 

Through the Carl D. Perkins Career and Technical Education 

Act, the Federal Government supports State and local programs designed to prepare high school and community college students for 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

2 

technical careers. These programs offer students the knowledge 

and training they need to compete in the workforce and hold jobs 

in a wide range of fields. In other words, they offer opportunities 

for young men and women to pursue a lifetime of success. 

This is an important conversation to have now because an anemic economy has made good paying jobs hard to come by. In fact, 

today, millions of Americans are struggling to find employment and 

millions of others who need full-time jobs can only find part-time 

work. For young people entering this kind of job market, having 

the right skills and experience is essential. 

Career and technical education programs can provide these critical tools, and we have to ensure Federal support for these programs is delivered in the most efficient and effective manner possible. As we have learned in recent years, through hearings and 

other activities, there are certainly opportunities to improve the 

law. 

This is an important area where Republicans and Democrats 

should work together to deliver reforms that will strengthen support for all Americans, but particularly young Americans. 

That collaboration is exactly what happened in 2014 with the bipartisan Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act. We worked together to help put Americans back to work by improving an outdated and insufficient job training program. 

Last year, a similar commitment to finding common ground guided our efforts to improve K–12 education. The result was the Every 

Student Succeeds Act, a law that empowers parents, teachers, and 

State and local leaders to deliver the quality education every child 

deserves. 

It’s time we applied the same approach to strengthening career 

and technical education, but more importantly, we need to apply 

many of the same principles reflected in our efforts to improve K– 

12 education and workforce development. What does that mean in 

practical terms? 

It means empowering State and local leaders to innovate and respond to the unique economic and education needs in their communities. They know better than anyone, certainly better than any of 

us in Washington, what it takes to meet the needs of their students, workers, and employers. It means equipping students with 

the skills they need for today’s in demand jobs, not the skills that 

were needed in yesterday’s workforce. 

We have to make sure Federal resources are aligned with the 

needs of the local workforce, the demands of new and emerging 

businesses. It also means strengthening transparency and accountability, providing parents, students, business leaders, community 

stakeholders, and taxpayers the information they need to hold their 

programs accountable. 

It isn’t good enough for students to simply complete a program. 

Once they have done so, they should be ready to further their education or pursue a good paying job. 

Finally, it means ensuring a limited Federal role. Restricting the 

Federal Government’s ability to intervene in matters that should 

be left up to the States will enable State and local leaders to spend 

less time meeting the demands of Washington and more time meeting the needs of people and their local communities. 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

3 

These are the kinds of reforms that we know work, the kinds of 

reforms that will help students succeed in the classroom and in the 

future. For many individuals entering the workforce can be scary 

enough on its own, for the young men and women entering today’s 

workforce, a slew of technological advantages, global changes, and 

economic challenges make finding a good job even more daunting. 

That is why it is so important for us to continue working together to ensure students have what they need to achieve success. 

Strengthening career and technical education should be the next 

step in that important effort. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses as we continue our 

work to strengthen the Perkins Act, and with that, I recognize 

Ranking Member Bobby Scott for his opening remarks. 

[The information follows:] 

Prepared Statement of Hon. John Kline, Chairman 

Committee on Education and the Workforce 

Through the Carl D. Perkins Career and Technical Education Act, the federal government supports state and local programs designed to prepare high school and 

community college students for technical careers. These programs offer students the 

knowledge and training they need to compete in the workforce and hold jobs in a 

wide range of fields. In other words, they offer opportunities for young men and 

women to pursue a lifetime of success. 

This is an important conversation to have now because an anemic economy has 

made good-paying jobs hard to come by. In fact, today, millions of Americans are 

struggling to find employment, and millions of others who need full-time jobs can 

only find part-time work. For young people entering this kind of job market, having 

the right skills and experience is essential. 

Career and technical education programs can provide these critical tools, and we 

have to ensure federal support for these programs is delivered in the most efficient 

and effective manner possible. As we have learned in recent years—through hearings and other activities—there are certainly opportunities to improve the law. This 

is an important area where Republicans and Democrats should work together to deliver reforms that will strengthen support for all Americans, but particularly young 

Americans. 

That collaboration is exactly what happened in 2014 with the bipartisan Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act. We worked together to help put Americans 

back to work by improving an outdated and inefficient job training system. Last 

year, a similar commitment to finding common ground guided our efforts to improve 

K–12 education. The result was the Every Student Succeeds Act, a law that empowers parents, teachers, and state and local leaders to deliver the quality education 

every child deserves. 

It’s time we applied the same approach to strengthening career and technical education. But more importantly, we need to apply many of the same principles reflected in our efforts to improve K–12 education and workforce development. What 

does that mean in practical terms? 

It means empowering state and local leaders to innovate and respond to the 

unique economic and education needs in their communities. They know better than 

anyone—certainly better than any of us in Washington—what it takes to meet the 

needs of their students, workers, and employers. 

It means equipping students with the skills they need for today’s in-demand 

jobs—not the skills that were needed in yesterday’s workforce. We have to make 

sure federal resources are aligned with the needs of the local workforce and the demands of new and emerging businesses. 

It also means strengthening transparency and accountability, providing parents, 

students, business leaders, community stakeholders, and taxpayers the information 

they need to hold their programs accountable. It isn’t good enough for students to 

simply complete a program; once they’ve done so, they should be ready to further 

their education or pursue a good-paying job. 

Finally, it means ensuring a limited federal role. Restricting the federal government’s ability to intervene in matters that should be left up to the states will enable 

state and local leaders to spend less time meeting the demands of Washington and 

more time meeting the needs of people in their local communities. 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

4 

These are the kinds of reforms that we know work; the kinds of reforms that will 

help students succeed in the classroom and in the future. For many individuals, entering the workforce can be scary enough on its own. For the young men and women 

entering today’s workforce, a slew of technological advances, global changes, and 

economic challenges make finding a good job even more daunting. 

That’s why it’s so important for us to continue working together to ensure students have what they need to achieve success. Strengthening career and technical 

education should be the next step in that important effort. 

Mr. SCOTT. Good morning, and thank you, Chairman Kline. We 

are here today to discuss the critical role of career and technical 

education, or CTE, in preparing our Nation’s students for success 

in the 21st century workforce. 

The Federal investment in CTE is authorized under the Carl D. 

Perkins Career and Technical Education Improvement Act of 2006, 

and I am hopeful that today’s hearing will serve as a foundation 

for a bipartisan comprehensive reauthorization of this important 

law. 

The research is clear. The United States is suffering from a skills 

gap due to our failure to produce enough skilled workers to meet 

future economic needs. According to the Georgetown University 

Center on Education and the Workforce, by 2020, 65 percent of all 

jobs in the United States will require some sort of postsecondary 

education or training. Yet, at its current production rate, the 

United States will fall approximately 5 million workers short of 

this by 2020. 

Investing in high quality CTE and increasing access to these programs through the reauthorization of the Perkins CTE must be 

prioritized as a partial solution to bridge this gap. 

CTE provides students with knowledge and skills needed to be 

both career and college ready. This is not the vocational education 

of the past. Today’s CTE fosters educational environments and engages students with an integrated curriculum of core academic content and real world work-based relevance. 

I am proud to say that my home State of Virginia is a leader in 

CTE with more than half a million 6th through 12th graders participating in CTE across the Commonwealth. Virginia has expanded access to CTE programs that equip secondary school students with recognized postsecondary credentials through innovative 

programs such as dual enrollment and registered apprenticeships. 

As we move forward with reauthorization, we must prioritize robust investment in high quality CTE programs in each and every 

State in order to maintain our Nation’s status as a leader in the 

global economy. 

The globalization of the marketplace has altered the way the 

U.S. and other countries compete for business. We certainly cannot 

compete with other countries when it comes to lowest wages, when 

many around the world may work for a couple of dollars or even 

pennies a day. Nor can we compete in terms of location with today’s technology, video conferencing, Smartphones and tablets, any 

worker that can work across the hall from their co-workers can 

work across the globe from their co-workers. 

The main reason the United States remains strong and continues 

to attract businesses is because we have a well educated and well 

trained workforce. Our focus on equitable access and high standCEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

5 

ards for all students, a system that focuses on college and career 

ready results, is an economic asset. 

While many of today’s CTE programs are successfully providing 

students with the skills and knowledge that today’s employers demand, there is more to be done to ensure that each and every CTE 

program is delivering the results for students, for industry, and for 

our national economy. 

We must do more to spur innovation in the delivery of CTE. We 

need to reward and replicate programs achieving positive results 

for students and industry to ensure that CTE is positioned to drive 

economic success, enhance workforce alignment, and increase collaboration between secondary and postsecondary educational institutions, industry, employers, and community partners. 

While successful CTE programs must meet labor market demands, they must also work for students. They must prepare them 

to succeed in demand jobs that offer living wages, employer benefits, and opportunities for meaningful career advancement. This requires renewed focus to ensure the opportunity for all students, especially historically disadvantaged students, to benefit from CTE 

programs that are relevant, rigorous, and high quality. 

In recent years, this committee, along with our Senate colleagues, completed successful, bipartisan reauthorization of two 

major laws which we must align with Perkins CTE. I am confident 

that the bipartisanship and shared commitment to equity in education embodied in both the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity 

Act and the Every Student Succeeds Act will produce a bipartisan 

reauthorization of Perkins CTE that empowers States and school 

districts and will make quality CTE available to all students with 

the guidance and support of the Department of Education. 

It is our obligation to prioritize equity of opportunity when it 

comes to participating in and benefiting from quality CTE programs. We must preserve and improve program accountability. 

The Federal Government has an important role to play in setting 

high expectations both for the systems and for the students those 

systems serve. In addition, we must maintain vigorous oversight 

and enforcement to ensure those expectations matter. 

Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you for holding this hearing. I would like to thank all of our witnesses for coming to testify 

today, and eagerly await their testimony, as you are all uniquely 

positioned to provide insight into the challenges, successes, and future of career and technical education. 

Lastly, I look forward to working with you, Mr. Chairman, and 

the committee on a bipartisan effort to modernize Federal support 

for CTE through the reauthorization of the Carl D. Perkins Career 

and Technical Education Act of 2006. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

[The information follows:] 

Prepared Statement of Hon. Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott, Ranking Member, 

Committee on Education and the Workforce 

Good morning and thank you, Chairman Kline. We are here today to discuss the 

critical role of career and technical education, or C.T.E., in preparing our nation’s 

students for success in the 21st century workforce. Federal investment in CTE programs is authorized under the Carl D. Perkins Career and Technical Education ImCEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

6 

provement Act of 2006, and I am hopeful that today’s hearing will serve as a foundation for a bipartisan comprehensive reauthorization of this important law. 

The research is clear: The United States is suffering from a ‘‘skills gap’’ due to 

our failure to produce enough skilled workers to meet future economic needs. According to the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, by 

2020, 65 percent of all jobs in the United States will require some sort of postsecondary education or training. Yet, at the current production rate, the United States 

will fall short by 5 million workers with postsecondary education by 2020. 

Investing in high-quality CTE and increasing access to these programs – through 

the reauthorization of Perkins CTE – must be a prioritized as a solution to bridge 

that gap. 

CTE provides students with the knowledge and skills needed to be both college 

and career ready. This is not the vocational education of the past—today’s CTE fosters educational environments that engage students with an integrated curriculum 

of core academic content and real-world, work-based relevance. And, I’m proud to 

say that my home state of Virginia is a leader in CTE, with more than half a million 

sixth through twelfth grade students participating in CTE across the Commonwealth. Virginia has expanded access to CTE programs that equip secondary school 

students with recognized postsecondary credentials through innovative programs 

such as dual enrollment and registered apprenticeships. 

As we move forward with reauthorization, we must also prioritize robust investment in high-quality CTE programs in each and every state in order to maintain 

our nation’s status as a leader in the global economy. 

The globalization of the marketplace has altered the way the U.S. and other countries compete for business. We certainly can’t compete with other countries when 

it comes to the lowest wages, when many around the world may work for a few dollars or even a few pennies a day. Nor can we compete in terms of location. With 

today’s technology – video-conferencing, smartphones, tablets – workers can now 

work across the globe from their coworkers. 

But the main reason that America remains strong and continues to attract business investment is because we have well-educated workers. Our focus on equitable 

access and high standards for all students – a system that focuses on college- and 

career-ready results – is an economic asset. And while many of today’s CTE programs are successfully providing students with the skills and knowledge that today’s employers demand, there’s more to be done to ensure that each and every CTE 

program is delivering results for students, for industry, and for our national economy. 

We must also do more to spur innovation in the delivery of CTE. We need to reward and replicate programs achieving positive outcomes for students and industry 

to ensure that CTE is positioned to drive economic success, enhance workforce alignment and increase collaboration between education, industry, employers, and community partners. 

While successful CTE programs must meet labor-market needs, they must also 

work for students. They must prepare them to succeed in in-demand jobs that offer 

living wages, employer benefits, and opportunities for meaningful career advancement. This requires a renewed federal focus to ensure the opportunity for all students – especially historically disadvantaged students – to benefit from CTE programs that are relevant, rigorous, and high-quality. 

In recent years, this committee, along with our Senate colleagues, completed successful, bipartisan comprehensive reauthorizations of two major laws with which we 

must align Perkins CTE. I am confident that the bipartisanship and shared commitment to equity in education embodied in both the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act and the Every Student Succeeds Act will produce a bipartisan reauthorization of Perkins CTE that empowers states and school districts to make quality 

CTE available to all students with the guidance and support of the U.S. Department 

of Education. 

It is our obligation to prioritize equity of opportunity when it comes to participating in and benefiting from quality CTE programs. We must preserve and improve program accountability— the federal government has an important role to 

play in setting high expectations both for systems and for the students those systems serve. In addition, we must maintain vigorous oversight and enforcement to 

ensure those expectations matter. 

So, Mr. Chairman, I’d like to thank you again for holding this hearing. I would 

also like to thank our witnesses for coming here to testify. I eagerly await your testimony, as you all are uniquely positioned to provide insight into the challenges, 

successes, and future of career and technical education. And lastly, I look forward 

to continuing to work with Chairman Kline on a bipartisan effort to modernize fedCEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

7 

eral support for CTE through reauthorization of the Carl D. Perkins Career and 

Technical Education Act of 2006. 

Chairman KLINE. I thank the gentleman. Pursuant to Committee 

Rule 7(c), all members will be permitted to submit written statements to be included in the permanent hearing record. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow 

such statements and other extraneous material referenced during 

the hearing to be submitted for the official hearing record. 

We are now going to turn to the introductions of our distinguished witnesses. Mr. Scott, I understand you will introduce our 

first witness. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to introduce 

Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, a good friend and inspirational 

leader from the Commonwealth of Virginia. He is a longtime advocate for education, and his life’s journey is a tribute to the power 

of career and technical education programs. 

Now he is the founder and co-chair of the bipartisan CTE Caucus 

in the Senate. He focuses on improving access to CTE programs to 

ensure that students of all ages are prepared with skills necessary 

for the 21st century workforce. 

His commitment to public education runs in his family. His wife, 

Ann, is also a personal friend, and she serves as the Commonwealth’s Secretary of Education. His father-in-law, former Governor 

Linwood Holton, is also a strong advocate of equal educational opportunities. 

I want to thank Senator Kaine for his leadership in the Senate 

to ensure that last year’s bipartisan Every Student Succeeds Act 

included provisions to strengthen school career counseling programs and encourage alignment between general career and technical education programs, and to better serve students. 

He also was involved in the reauthorization as he championed 

provisions to empower local school districts to deliver instruction in 

interpersonal and relationship skills, key foundation, employability 

skills or soft skills, that are often too lacking in high school graduates. 

He grew up working in his iron working shop in Kansas City, 

educated at University of Missouri and Harvard Law School, started his public service career by taking a year off from Harvard to 

run a technical school founded by Jesuit missionaries in Honduras. 

I am sure we will hear more from the Senator during his testimony about how these and other real world experiences shaped his 

future. 

And so, Senator Kaine, I have known for many years, as I have 

indicated. About the same time I was getting elected to Congress, 

he was getting elected to City Council in Richmond, then Mayor of 

Richmond, then Lieutenant Governor, then Governor, and now 

Senator from Virginia, and I don’t think we have heard the last of 

him. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman KLINE. I thank the gentleman. Senator, thank you for 

being here. Although I do know you are sliding down in the elective 

political scale here, but thank you for being here with us today. I 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

8 

understand you need to leave before 11:00. We will be mindful of 

that as we go forward. 

It is now my pleasure to introduce our remaining witnesses. Mr. 

Paul Tse is a project manager with Shapiro & Duncan, Inc. in 

Rockville, Maryland. Mr. Tse attended the Thomas Edison High 

School of Technology in Montgomery, Maryland. His experience at 

Thomas Edison helped prepare him for an HVAC job with Shapiro 

& Duncan. In his 12 years with the company, Mr. Tse has gone on 

to become a project manager and was part of the leadership team 

that recently oversaw a $16 million HVAC installation. 

Mr. Jason Bates is an administration manager with ToyotaBodine Aluminum in Jackson, Tennessee. Mr. Bates is the administration manager for the Toyota’s Bodine Aluminum, which supplies 

aluminum diecast engine parts for the company’s North American 

power train production. 

He oversees the implementation of Toyota’s advanced manufacturing technician program in Tennessee. The MT program provides 

students the opportunity to earn a work related associate’s degree 

while working part-time. 

Dr. Monty Sullivan is president of the Louisiana Community and 

Technical College System in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Dr. Sullivan 

has been president of the Louisiana Community and Technical College System since February 2014. Prior to serving as president, he 

was the chancellor of Delgado Community College in New Orleans. 

He has been a leader in Louisiana’s effort to address workforce 

needs through the targeted application of the Perkins Act and 

State workforce development funding. 

Welcome, all of you. Before I recognize each of you to provide 

your testimony, let me just go over our highly complicated lighting 

system. We allow 5 minutes for each witness to provide testimony. 

When you begin, the light in front of you will turn green. When 1 

minute is left, the light will turn yellow, and at the 5 minute mark, 

the light will turn red, and then please try to wrap up your testimony. 

I am loath to gavel down witnesses, certainly during their opening testimony, but you can see we have a number of members that 

we want to get through. These members will each have 5 minutes 

to ask questions, and I hope I can hold with that. That means I 

will not be hesitant to gavel down that 5 minute time. 

So, let’s get started. Senator Kaine, you are recognized. 

STATEMENT OF HON. TIM KAINE, UNITED STATES SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA 

Senator KAINE. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Ranking Member 

Scott, and committee members. I am so pleased that you are holding this hearing and honored that you asked me to testify. 

Congratulations also on WIOA and ESSA. These are two big accomplishments, and we hope that we can work together obviously 

to reauthorize Perkins. 

Congressman Scott described my own personal background in 

this area. My dad ran an organized iron working and welding shop 

in the stockyards of Kansas City, Missouri. My two brothers and 

I and my mom grew up all working in that business. In a tough 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

9 

year, there would be five employees, and in a great year, there 

would be seven or eight employees. It was a classic small business. 

But I learned from my father. As the owner, he would always 

teach us that his business acumen would help his great welders 

and iron workers educate their kids, but their technical mastery 

would help him educate his kids. It was a partnership. And That’s 

what is so good about this topic. It truly is a partnership. 

Years later, when I was at Harvard Law School and not sure 

what I wanted to do with my life, I volunteered to go work with 

Jesuit missionaries in Honduras. They saw that I was at Harvard 

Law School and determined that would have no relevance to anything they were doing. 

But when they realized I had worked in an iron working shop, 

they said run a vocational school, Instituto Tecnico Loyola in El 

Progreso, 1980 and 81. It was a school that taught kids to be welders and carpenters. 

These early experiences taught me the power of career and technical education, but then back here as I was going through schooling and even watching my own kids go through schooling, I saw a 

contrast. The schools I went to in Kansas City did not emphasize 

career and technical education. In fact, the vocational education 

track was kind of sometimes used for kids that had been probably 

wrongly determined not to be college material. 

I saw this in my own children’s education as they were going 

through the public schools in Richmond. There was maybe a little 

better attitude but still not an embrace of it. 

I remember when I was running for Lieutenant Governor, a good 

friend, G.G. Pippin, who is a middle school educator in Wise County, Virginia, said to me ‘‘I will sometimes see my kids after they 

are in middle school and high school, and I’ll ask them what they 

are doing, and sometimes my kids say I am in vocational education 

and slump their shoulders almost as if they are ashamed to tell me 

that is what they are doing.’’ 

Clearly, CTE is important, but clearly for a variety of reasons, 

we have not emphasized its importance. 

When I was Governor of Virginia, I worked hard with Democrats 

and Republicans to change that trajectory. We dramatically increased the number of our young people who are getting industry 

certifications, and as much as I would like to say it was because 

there was a good Governor, frankly, there was a renaissance going 

on in every one of our 134 city and county school systems. People 

were starting to embrace again the notion of technical education. 

We started when I was Governor, Governor’s Career and Technical Academies. We had Governor’s schools, 17 regional magnet 

Governor’s schools that would prepare kids for college. And when 

I ran for Governor, I said why not call it a career and technical 

education program, a Governor’s school, just the label, just to shine 

the spotlight. 

By the time I was done as Governor, there were nine. The Governor who followed me, Governor McDonnell, took it up to 23. The 

Governor who’s followed him, Terry McAuliffe, is adding to it 

again. There is a renaissance, and people around the State get it. 

In the Senate, I came to the Senate and I wanted to be on the 

HELP Committee, and I did not get put on. What I realized is you 

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do not have to be on the committee, just pick an issue that nobody 

on the committee is yet championing. And so I chose CTE education. I did what any smart Senator would do, I stole an idea from 

the House. 

You had a CTE Caucus for a very long time and the Senate 

hasn’t. With Rob Portman of Ohio and Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin, we have created a caucus, and we have had meaningful legislation passed both as part of WIOA and ESSA included in those 

bills. 

And now, Perkins is our priority, and the committee in the Senate is working hard on this as well. 

We have three bills that are sort of pending on the Senate side. 

Conceptually, I’d just like to describe them, because I think they 

would be really helpful as we look at Perkins’ reauthorization. 

First, the Educating Tomorrow’s Workforce Act. I describe it in 

the written testimony. It is basically trying to define for Circa 2016 

what is a high quality CTE program. The interaction with the private sector and employers is important. Connection with colleges 

and community colleges is important. Professional development is 

important. 

What is important about CTE education if it is going to be truly 

first class? That is what the Educating Tomorrow’s Workforce Act 

does. 

Second, the Middle STEP Act. I kind of viewed in my own experience with my own kids that middle school is often kind of a little 

bit of a pedagogical wasteland. It is kind of hormone warehouse. 

If we are going to expect high schoolers to start making career 

choices, including CTE paths, let’s use middle school to expose kids 

as broadly as possible to what the workforce is. Most children, they 

know what their parents do and they know what teachers do, but 

they do not really know what’s out there. Let’s do that in middle 

school. 

Finally, as I conclude, the CTE Excellence and Equity Act, which 

is also a pilot project, designed specifically to enhance CTE education in schools where there are a lot of underserved students, because it is a path to success. 

I will just conclude and say this is a win-win. Employers and 

labor want us to do this. Governors and Mayors want us to do this. 

CTE educators who often labored in the shadows but now are seeing a renaissance, they want us to do it, and most of all, our kids 

will win if we do. 

Thanks so much for having me. 

[The statement of Senator Kaine follows:] 

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Chairman KLINE. Thank you, Senator. Mr. Tse, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF PAUL TSE, PROJECT MANAGER, SHAPIRO & 

DUNCAN, INC. 

Mr. TSE. Chairman Kline, Ranking Member Scott, and members 

of the Education and Workforce Committee, thank you for being 

able to testify in front of you today. Thank you for calling this important hearing on the benefits and the need to fund career and 

technical education programs. 

My name is Paul Tse. I am a proud graduate of a CTE program 

at Thomas Edison High School of Technology in Silver Spring. 

I come before you today as a staunch advocate for career development opportunities for students in construction and skilled trades. 

My journey from apprenticeship or apprentice to project manager 

began in Hong Kong in 1996. When I was 10 years old, my parents 

moved my family to America in search for a better life. We settled 

in Montgomery County, Maryland, and that is still where I live 

today. 

For the first few years of my life in America, my family bounced 

around rental properties and staying with relatives, simply because 

we just did not have the financial means to own a home. 

Although my parents worked relentlessly to provide for their 

kids, they were not immediately able to claim their piece of the 

American dream. 

While attending Rockville High School, I struggled as a student. 

I had attendance problems, mediocre/terrible grades. I fell into the 

wrong crowd and lacked any type of direction. 

As I started my junior year, I noted my classmates and friends 

making plans to go off to college. As I sat and watched from the 

sidelines, I can still remember the feeling of embarrassment and 

helplessness while those around me were beginning their climb towards success, and I sat still at the bottom. 

My life took a dramatic turn when one of my family members, 

who is a roofer, suggested that I look into the skilled trades as a 

career path. Like many of my peers, I had been pushed to attend 

a four year college as if anything else was seen as settling for failure. 

With the help of my guidance counselor, I found a local career 

and technical education program at Thomas Edison High School of 

Technology. Without any construction background, I decided nervously to enroll in the HVAC program my senior year. For those of 

you who do not know, ‘‘HVAC’’ stands for heating, ventilation, and 

air conditioning, which is what keeps us comfortable every single 

day. 

Spending my mornings in a typical classroom and my afternoons 

at Edison, I was introduced into the world of construction and the 

skilled trades following the industry’s recognized and credentialed 

curriculum of National Center for Construction Education and Research, NCCER. 

Thanks to the dedicated staff and new found sense of direction, 

I graduated the program at the same time my peers were graduating their typical high schools. Within a week of graduation, I 

had two job offers from respected local companies to join their team 

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as an apprentice. Even before my peers packed up their bags and 

got into their cars headed out for freshman move-in day, I accepted 

a position with Shapiro & Duncan Mechanical Contractors, and got 

right to work. 

In the summer, I logged valuable hours as a simple helper on a 

small construction project, and in the fall, I started my official apprenticeship program. For the next four years, I worked on projects 

during the day and attended classroom education in the evenings 

at Montgomery College, as part of the ACCA program, Air Conditioning Contractors of America. 

In the classroom, I was motivated and learned the basic theories 

of HVAC and also some complex math equations and calculations. 

My on-the-job training transferred what I had learned in the evenings into real world projects. At the end of my program, I was 

proud to be named the HVAC journeyman as recognized by the 

State of Maryland. 

I would like to note an important fact about the day I graduated, 

because I was fortunate enough to have my employer pay for the 

cost of my apprenticeship program, I was debt free. Not only was 

I debt free, I was also paid for the four year apprenticeship program, so I received my postsecondary education at no cost and 

earned four years of salary during that same time. I bet there are 

many folks in this room today, both younger and older, who are 

probably still paying off their student loans from undergrad or 

their grade school. 

I started my ascension into leadership positions during my time 

in the field. I ran small projects as a field foreman, leading small 

crews of two to four technicians on installation work, such as AC 

replacements at condominiums, schools, and small office buildings. 

After seven years of working in the field, I moved up the project 

letter and secured a position as an assistant project manager. After 

a year of that, my company deemed me a valuable enough asset 

and I was promoted to become a project manager. 

In the construction world, a project manager manages all aspects 

of a project, including budget, means and methods of installing 

work, schedule, and just overall constructability. 

As someone who has real world experience installing systems 

and welding pipes, I have an unique vantage point as a project 

manager. I did not only learn from a book on how to light a torch, 

I actually held it in my hand. 

Some of my colleagues graduated from four year colleges with degrees in construction management and mechanical engineering. 

While I am sure this benefitted them, my field experience and CTE 

training gave me a true competitive edge. 

I come before you today humbled and thankful that I had the opportunity to attend the CTE program at Edison. It is time that students, guidance counselors, educators, parents, American public, 

recognize the fulfilling and lucrative career that can be achieved in 

the construction and skilled trades. 

We must all work to remove any stigma that exists that in choosing a CTE program over a traditional four year college it is somehow settling. 

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sities. Instead of pushing kids down the traditional path of college 

prep, we should be pushing kids to explore learning opportunities 

that prepare them for college and a career. 

Whether the destination is an engineering degree from the University of Maryland or a journeyman’s license from the State of 

Maryland, high schoolers should have the equal opportunities to 

prepare for either pathway. 

Chairman Kline, Ranking Member Scott, members of the committee, I am the American dream. I urge all of you to ensure that 

every child in America has the same opportunities as I did. Thank 

you. 

[The statement of Mr. Tse follows:] 

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Chairman KLINE. Thank you very much. Mr. Bates, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF JASON BATES, MANAGER, TOYOTA–BODINE 

ALUMINUM, INC. 

Mr. BATES. Good morning, Chairman Kline, Ranking Member 

Scott, and members of the committee. Thank you for this opportunity to testify on this important subject. 

My name is Jason Bates. I am manager of Administration at the 

Toyota-Bodine plant in Jackson, Tennessee. I started working for 

Toyota 10 years ago, and at the plant, my responsibilities include, 

among other things, training and development. 

Last January, I was appointed by Governor Bill Haslam to serve 

on the Tennessee Workforce Development Board. 

U.S. manufacturers are depending on Congress to enact education policies that are intentional in generating a robust world 

class workforce pipeline. By taking action before the end of the 

year, Congress can reinvigorate the foundation required to ensure 

America’s long-term global manufacturing leadership. 

Like other advanced manufacturing companies in the United 

States, Toyota’s employment needs are significant. We face formidable challenges arising from our country’s skills gap. Toyota’s response to the skills gap has been both vigorous and innovative. 

We have partnered with over 50 schools across the country to develop benchmark educational programs in two areas. First, we developed top service technicians for our Lexis and Toyota dealerships through a program called ‘‘Toyota T–TEN.’’ Second, we are 

educating skilled manufacturing technicians for our factories 

through an effort called the ‘‘Advanced Manufacturing Technician’’ 

or AMT program. 

Today, I will focus on our AMT program, which I was responsible 

for launching in Tennessee with Jackson State Community College. 

AMT is now a core component of Toyota’s manufacturing success. 

It is designed to supply our U.S. factories with a cadre of skilled 

technicians who manage and maintain complex robotics and other 

manufacturing equipment. 

The program began in 2010 as a collaboration between Toyota 

and Kentucky’s Bluegrass Community & Technical College. Since 

then, it has expanded into public/private partnerships in 8 States, 

Alabama, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, Tennessee, 

Texas, and West Virginia. 

There are about 400 students enrolled, and that number is expected to significantly increase in the coming school year. 

At most of these locations, other companies, ranging from global 

manufacturers like 3M, GE, and Delta Faucet, to small manufacturers with fewer than 50 employees also participate. Altogether, 

there are more than 160 companies involved. This is important because private sector engagement is critical to solving the skills gap, 

and Perkins CTE reauthorization can help foster that outcome. 

Classes are conducted in an environment that is set up to look, 

feel, and function like the work environment. Students work and 

attend classes 40 hours a week for five straight semesters and earn 

enough money from their work to cover their tuition and expenses. 

Both their study and work experiences are organized around a 

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structured sequence that teaches various technical and employment skills. 

The ultimate objective is a graduate who is multi-skilled, possesses strong math and reading capabilities, is a fast technical 

learner, is a problem solver, a good communicator, and is comfortable working as part of a team. 

This is the model for a globally competitive manufacturing technician we expect our educational partners to produce. Perkins CTE 

can encourage similar work-based learning opportunities which 

would foster similar high caliber graduates. 

Critical to AMT’s success is identifying qualifying prospects. To 

ensure highly motivated students apply to the program, Toyota has 

increased its coordination with secondary and elementary schools. 

Part of our recruiting dynamic is having high school juniors, sophomores, and freshmen come and see our facilities year after year. 

We also interface with teachers and counselors so they are more inclined to recommend the program to their students. 

Another important aspect is encouraging the right kind of learning at early stages of a student’s development. Toyota maintains a 

close working relationship with Project Lead The Way, a nationwide program that supplies innovative science, technology, and 

math curricula. Other STEM partners include FIRST Robotics and 

VEX Robotics. 

Strong alignment between the manufacturing and education sector is of utmost importance to Toyota. We are thankful that the 

committee passed the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act. 

Your emphasis on requiring greater business community involvement in a State workforce development decision making is proving 

very helpful. 

As I mentioned before, I was recently appointed by Governor 

Haslam to serve on the Tennessee Workforce Development Board. 

I am honored to serve in this position, and grateful that my Governor believes my Toyota experience can help foster an even 

stronger workforce development system in our State. 

Aligning Perkins CTE reauthorization with WIOA would make 

the workforce system more efficient and easier to navigate for employers interested in lending help. 

Congress should reauthorize the Perkins CTE Act, and in doing 

so, should consider the following improvements. First, align CTE 

programs directly with the needs of regional, State, and local labor 

markets in manners consistent with WIOA. Second, encourage and 

support meaningful collaboration between secondary and postsecondary institutions and employers. 

Third, increase student participation in work-based learning opportunities. Finally, promote the use of industry recognized credentials. 

Reauthorization of Perkins CTE in this manner will strengthen 

the workforce pipeline across America and help students succeed in 

industries like manufacturing. I urge this committee to take action 

as soon as possible. 

Thank you for allowing me to testify before the committee, and 

I am happy to answer any questions. 

[The statement of Mr. Bates follows:] 

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Chairman KLINE. Thank you. Dr. Sullivan, you are recognized for 

5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF MONTY SULLIVAN, PRESIDENT, LOUISIANA 

COMMUNITY AND TECHNICAL COLLEGE SYSTEM 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Chair Kline, Ranking Member Scott, members of 

the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be with you this 

morning, thank you for the opportunity to be a part of this distinguished panel. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share 

with you a few thoughts on the future of the Carl D. Perkins Career and Technical Education Act. 

I am Monty Sullivan. I serve as president of Louisiana’s Community and Technical Colleges. We are a system of 13 community and 

technical colleges serving over 150,000 students across Louisiana 

and providing administration and leadership for the Perkins’ efforts there. 

I am also a member of the American Association of Community 

Colleges and a Board member for Rebuilding America’s Middle 

Class or RAMC. 

Reauthorization of the Perkins Act is a critical step forward for 

our Nation as addressing the skills gap continues to be one of the 

foremost challenges for igniting our economy and more importantly, for improving the lives of Americans from all walks of life. 

I hail from a State with a rich career and technical education 

history. In fact, recently, Lumina Foundation’s A Stronger Nation 

report indicated Louisiana’s overall working age postsecondary attainment rate improved from 50th in the Nation to 26th in the Nation. 

A key factor in that dramatic improvement was the inclusion for 

the first time of less than Associate degree credentials. Louisiana 

ranks first in the Nation in the percentage of adults with a high 

quality postsecondary certificate, as the highest level of attainment. Not often do we get to make claims like that in Louisiana. 

The strategic investment of Perkins’ funds has been instrumental 

in achieving this accomplishment. This success has occurred in an 

environment with sharply declining State resources and increasing 

tuition. Meanwhile, Louisiana’s economy continues to show strong 

workforce demands in spite of a recent downturn in the oil and gas 

economy. 

The combination of a strong market demand, narrowing State resources, and increasing tuition costs has forced our colleges to focus 

more keenly than ever before on responding to the workforce needs 

of industry, improving the value proposition to our students, and 

maximizing every single dollar that can be driven toward a career 

and technical education. 

Simply put, alignment of programs and resources to market demands has been key to our success. 

The following is a list of policy recommendations for your consideration. First, align the Perkins Act with the tenets of WIOA to 

focus on solving the workforce challenges of States and communities. WIOA provided a foundation for data, definitions, and success measures that focus on regional labor market demands. 

Labor market data should drive investments and be a key factor 

in performance metrics, specifically in the postsecondary measures 

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area. States with access to earnings data should be able to use that 

data to demonstrate their performance. Funding should be viewed 

as a means to underwrite programs that meet future workforce 

needs, not fund traditional programs. 

Recommendation two, emphasize regional consolidated plans 

across education sectors with significant industry engagement. The 

most successful career and technical education programs or efforts 

have strong partnerships and substantive industry contributions, 

both financial and non-financial. These partnerships should be a 

basic tenet of the future of Perkins. 

Number three, encourage dual enrollment opportunities focused 

on completion of high demand credentials, not simply courses. 

Recommendation four, under the special populations provision of 

the Perkins Act, consider focusing on key populations. 

Community colleges serve a broad cross section of the American 

people. Those most in need of training are often adults with no 

high school diploma and returning military veterans. Consider 

making specific allowances for these populations within the Perkins Act. 

The fifth recommendation deals with accountability. Accountability should focus on end measures, not process means or unit 

measures. Set out the purpose of the Perkins Act and measure our 

efforts based upon outcomes meaningful to students, communities, 

and employers. 

The reauthorization of the Carl D. Perkins Act is an opportunity 

to target resources at one of the Nation’s most pressing challenges, 

educating and skilling our most precious natural resource, our people. 

The programs funded through this act are today and will be more 

so in the future the path for millions of people to the American 

dream. I wish you the best in the work before you, and look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you. 

[The statement of Mr. Sullivan follows:] 

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Chairman KLINE. Thank you, sir. Thanks to all the witnesses, 

very inspiring stories. We are going to try to move with some alacrity here, mindful of Senator Kaine’s need to leave a little bit early. 

We are going to try working with 5 minutes per member but we 

may very quickly cut it to 4 so that everybody has a chance to participate. 

Let me start, Mr. Bates, in your testimony, you really talk a lot 

about the effectiveness of the advanced manufacturing technician, 

the AMT program, and how it helped address Toyota’s workforce 

challenges. Toyota is a very large company. 

Mr. BATES. Yes. 

Chairman KLINE. A lot of resources that smaller employers may 

not have or will not have by comparison. How have small businesses been able to participate in or benefit from the AMT program? 

Mr. BATES. Thank you, Chairman Kline. That is a wonderful 

question, and I can speak to my experience in Jackson, Tennessee 

with Jackson State Community College. Our community does not 

have a large manufacturer, even though I work for Toyota, our 

plant is about 315 team members. Most of the employers around 

our area are less than that. 

We were able to reach out to them and ask them what their 

needs were. Consistently, from talking with other H.R. managers, 

they have always struggled with finding skilled technicians. We 

recognize that by them participating in this program, they would 

also be able to take advantage of the opportunity. 

One of the key successes of this program is the work based learning opportunity, the co-op program, as we call it. I, myself, could 

not sponsor or have more than 2 or 3 co-ops a year, and other 

smaller manufacturers could only maybe take one co-op a year. By 

coming together, we could work with our community college and be 

able to support a cohort of 20 to 25 students, and that is exactly 

what we did. 

This program is designed to allow even a small manufacturer 

with less than 50 employees, per se, be able to participate, to sponsor a co-op, and have them work at their facility, and then when 

the students graduates after 2 years with their Associate of Applied Science degree, not only do they have a degree, they have 2 

years of work experience at the factory they are co-oping. The employer has an opportunity to hire that student to come then work 

in their facility for the future. 

It is a great opportunity to bring all sizes of manufacturing together for this program. 

Chairman KLINE. Good story. Thank you very much. Mr. Scott? 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Kaine, you fought 

to expand career counseling, modernization of high schools with 

work based learning opportunities, and designation of CTE as a 

well-rounded education component of ESSA. 

You also worked to get relationship skills in there that, I assume, 

would be very helpful as one of the soft skills we keep hearing 

about. 

What can we do to make sure that what we did in ESSA is coordinated with the CTE programs? 

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Senator KAINE. Thank you, Congressman Scott. It was an important part, I think, of ESSA and the reauthorization this committee 

and the Senate did. We did focus on the career counseling piece. 

I think some of the testimony of the other witnesses have suggested that is a really important part of this for teachers, counselors, and students, and their parents to understand how valuable 

these opportunities are. 

I think the key that we all should focus on is now that the Department of Ed is working with the chief State school officers to 

implement ESSA—my wife as Secretary of Education in Virginia is 

doing what 49 other secretaries are doing, pulling together the 

stakeholders, trying to figure out how to implement for the school 

year that begins in the fall of 2017. 

I think it is really important that through the Department of Ed 

and in our own interactions with our State officers and the States 

we represent ask what are you doing on the career counseling side. 

It is really important what you did by elevating CTE as kind of 

a core curriculum as part of the ESSA reauthorization, was to end 

the stigma that much of the testimony discussed. We have to make 

sure as the chief State school officers are making the implementing 

changes that does actually lift to front and center. I think this is 

really important work that we can be about between now and the 

fall of 2017. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. We both work on judiciary issues and 

have found that CTE can be an effective strategy for keeping children engaged. How does your CTE Excellence and Equity Act help 

keep children engaged and reduce achievement gaps and things 

like that? 

Senator KAINE. Very important. I could not have had a better example than the witness who followed me. So many of our youngsters in high school who are really talented and able to do well, 

maybe they just do not see the relevance of what they are learning, 

and then they start to get into a CTE curriculum, and not only do 

they find that really exciting, but then the CTE curriculum reminds them why the academic subjects are strong. 

I have had numerous interactions with students, for example, 

who have decided to take CTE courses in the allied health fields, 

EMT, and suddenly their biology and chemistry grades go way up 

because they understand what the relevance is. 

The act on CTE excellence and equity that we are promoting on 

the Senate side would be a pilot project to really go into underserved students, students who are not academically successful but 

maybe they are not successful because they do not grasp the relevance to their future life, and do programs that provide them with 

student support, but also have significant connections to the private sector to regional workforce demands and higher ed institutions. 

It is that partnership, I think, that some of our students just do 

not know what is out there, when they see that partnership, they 

really catch fire about what their opportunities are. 

Mr. SCOTT. The chairman and I both mentioned in our opening 

remarks the difference between career and technical education 

today and what used to be an alternative to an education. Can you 

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talk about the importance of making sure that we get the core academics as part of any CTE program? 

Senator KAINE. Absolutely important. And as I think about my 

own high school years, many, many years ago, vocational education 

was almost kind of a tracked system where people would be sort 

of pushed there if teachers or guidance counselors did not think 

they were college material, whatever that means. 

We want to raise CTE but we can’t do it in a way that repeats 

sort of the tracking phenomenon of the past. I think that is why 

I really like this Middle STEP bill we have in. We have to equip 

students with the tools to start making choices among competing 

career paths that are all great. 

They start to make those choices when they are signing up for 

high school courses, but usually they are picking high school 

courses without having done a lot of intentional thought about 

what their career options might be. 

Middle school is not too early for kids to decide do I see myself 

working outdoors or indoors, or in front of a computer. You can get 

kids to start thinking about what works for them. I think we need 

to expand CTE but not repeat some of the kind of tracking mistakes of the past. If we do, we will compound our equity challenges. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Chairman KLINE. Thank you. Mr. Wilson, you are recognized for 

5 minutes. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank 

each of you for being here, and particularly Mr. Tse. Your testimony is an encouragement to other young people to have successful 

lives and fulfilling lives, and I wish you well in your career. 

Mr. Bates, I was particularly impressed by your description of 

the employer driven training partnership you have developed. In 

South Carolina, we have attracted many blue chip companies such 

as Boeing, because of the ability to create skilled talent with advanced career and technical education workers through employer 

driven training partnerships such as the ones you described. 

A great example is the Boeing Ready SE partnership. This program has resulted in hiring over 4,500 program graduates since its 

founding in 2009. South Carolina was able to go from a State that 

did not have a significant aviation industry into one that is producing the world’s most advanced wide body aircraft, the 787 

Dreamliner, with 8,000 employees, and obviously suppliers across 

the State. 

This is why I would like to see these programs encouraged in the 

reauthorization of the Perkins Career and Technical Education Act. 

Could you speak to the emphasis that employers are placing on the 

availability of talent in deciding where to locate their major operations? 

Mr. BATES. Yes, Congressman. I think that is very important. In 

my community, the economic and community development group is 

very active in reaching out to global manufacturers to come relocate to our area. I think many States are the same way. 

I can testify that our AMT program that we established at Jackson State Community College was a determining factor for a recent 

manufacturer to come to our State and set up their manufacturing 

operation. They are an automotive supplier. That was one of the 

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decision makers for them, they knew they had a workforce development program at a local community college that was going to be 

able to provide them with the skilled technicians they were going 

to need not only now but also in the future. 

These types of programs are absolutely essential for our continued growth in developing our global manufacturing leadership here 

in the United States. 

Mr. WILSON. I want to congratulate Tennessee. Dr. Roe has educated us on the success of Tennessee. From the perspective of 

South Carolina, we are very grateful with the success of a sister 

company, BMW, we are the largest exporter of cars of any State 

in the Union. Again, Mr. Tse, we still have room for you in South 

Carolina. 

We have tire manufacturing. Who would imagine South Carolina 

is now the leading manufacturer and exporter of tires with 

Bridgestone of Japan, with Michelin of France, with Continental of 

Germany, Giti Tire of Singapore. Again, it is technical education 

that has made a difference. 

Dr. Sullivan, in your testimony today, about creating jobs, I am 

really grateful as I cited in South Carolina, we have had terrific 

programs like Apprenticeship Carolina, the SC technical college 

system. With that and your background, what would you identify 

as the biggest challenges facing schools and businesses to partner 

to improve the CTE programs? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Thank you for the question, Congressman Wilson. 

Certainly, the State of South Carolina has offered a great deal for 

many of us to learn from, and we are appreciative for the good 

work going on there. 

One of the things that I think is most important for us to do as 

community and technical colleges is to remain both aware of and 

keep pace with industry demands in terms of the workforce needs. 

Often times, that can be a difficult challenge because of the resource limitations. 

Perkins provides a critical opportunity for us to be able to make 

those investments to remain competitive in terms of the curriculum 

that we offer. 

One of the second areas that is very difficult for our colleges to 

keep up with is to ensure that our faculty members have the training necessary to be relevant in the classroom for students. That relationship back with business and industry, just as we talked about 

a few minutes ago, so very important, because industry often times 

can help us to not only know where they may be today but also to 

forecast where they are going in the future. 

Mr. WILSON. I want to commend Virginia for its success. One of 

the reasons we had success, it goes to the equipment, is a company 

could locate their manufacturing equipment in a technical school 

and reserve their proprietary information, and persons could be 

trained so that immediately when the facility is completed, a young 

person like Mr. Tse can go right to work and be very productive. 

I yield the balance of my time. 

Chairman KLINE. I thank the gentleman. We are starting to run 

out of States, I think. I am not sure. I feel slighted, by the way. 

Ms. Fudge, you are recognized. 

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39 

Ms. FUDGE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all 

for being here today. It was enlightening to hear your success stories and as well to hear our chairman talk about the need for these 

programs now more than ever. 

And with that said, I do have to note that Perkins’ funding has 

declined by 24 percent since 1998. So if we need these programs, 

certainly we need to take a look at how we fund them. 

Senator, can you just talk to me about how this reduction in 

funds has hindered the expansion of high quality CTE programs? 

Senator KAINE. The reduction of funds is sort of coming at exactly the wrong time because the good news is I think there is a 

renaissance of awareness that this is really important, and with 

the economic circumstances, especially the fiscal reversals and recession of 2008 and 2010, there is even more need for training, and 

more need for people to receive that training. 

So the funding has been going down at the same time as the 

need has been increasing, and thank goodness, we have all been realizing the importance of these programs. You get good bang for 

the buck out of these investments. 

Ms. FUDGE. I just want to say, as we all fly a lot, I was sitting 

on a plane one day next to a guy. This is in the last month. He 

probably had the dirtiest fingernails I have ever seen in my life, 

right. I asked him what he does. He teaches welding to young people at a high school in Texas. 

He started to talk to me about how important Perkins was. He 

started to talk to me about what these young people have accomplished through his programs, and how they have succeeded when 

no one thought they would succeed. 

I agree 100 percent, we need to look at the funding and we need 

to fund more of these programs so these young people can come out 

and do productive things. We know there is a shortage of welders 

in this country, or bricklayers, and masons. We need to train them. 

I think we can do that if we put the resources in it. I thank you 

for that. 

As well, Senator Kaine, last year, I introduced the Go to High 

School, Go to College Act, which would expand Pell eligibility, of 

course, for students attending early college high schools. You introduced the JOBS Act last year as well, which would allow Pell 

grants to students enrolled in short-term job training programs. 

Can you talk a bit about why it is important for us to expand 

the use of Pell grants to these kinds of programs? 

Senator KAINE. I will get on my soap box, this is really important. This is an example of the second class status of CTE that still 

is kind of contained in the Federal laws. So a Pell grant, if you income qualify, you can get a Pell grant but the course has to be the 

length of a college semester. A lot of high intensity welding programs are 10 week courses. It is not the length of a college semester, it is not 14 weeks. We do not allow Pell grants for these intense CTE programs. 

Why don’t we? The student income qualifies. It is because we 

have viewed those programs as second class. I will tell you another 

one. In the military, active duty, military tuition assistance benefit. 

You can get that if your CO says what you want to study is relevant to your MOS. 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

40 

You can use it at a community college or a college, up to $4,500 a year, but if you want to use $300 to take the American Welding 

Society’s certification exam because you are trained as an ordinance enlisted officer, you can’t use the money for the certification 

exam. You got to use it on a college campus. It makes no sense. 

There are still many policies that kind of hold the college and 

CTE on two levels. Some of the best policy we can do is going 

through and removing those vestiges of the day when CTE was not 

viewed as of equal measure. That is why we introduced the JOBS 

Act. So if you income qualify, take that 10 week HVAC intensive 

course. It does not have to be the length of a college semester. 

Ms. FUDGE. I am hopeful that is something we can do on a bipartisan basis. It makes all the sense in the world. I am hoping that 

my colleagues will be supportive of it. 

Lastly, to you, Senator Kaine, please talk to me about why it is 

important for us to address the Higher Education Act as it relates 

to training educators in the CTE programs. 

Senator KAINE. Great question. The Higher Education Act is also 

maybe the best place to fix this Pell grant disparity that we were 

just discussing. But, training is critical. One of the bills that we 

have that I was discussing in my testimony, Educating Tomorrow’s 

Workforce Act, really talks about this career training and professionalism. 

I think we have all seen many of our great teachers these days 

are career switchers, but there is no place where that is more the 

case than in CTE education. I am sure the teacher that you talked 

to on the plane with the dirty fingernails, before he was a teacher, 

he was a practicing welder, and then he was bringing that into the 

classroom. 

So professional development is really important, and maybe with 

a special focus on the career switcher, to bring them from the technical field into the classroom, they tend to be the most popular 

teachers in many of the schools where they work. 

Ms. FUDGE. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentlelady yields back. Senator Kaine, it 

is not my role to be your staffer, but I understand we have reached 

your hard stop. I want to thank you again for your time and your 

expertise, and wish you good luck in turning that slide around. The 

Jesuits still need you. 

Senator KAINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman KLINE. Thank you very much, Senator. Dr. Foxx, you 

are recognized. 

Ms. FOXX. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While Senator Kaine is 

leaving, I want to say how much I appreciated his comments, in 

particular his experiences with seeing people who feel going into 

education that is not a four year degree is something less than a 

four year agree. I have experienced that myself. 

As far as I know, everybody getting a four year degree wants a 

vocation, therefore, my attitude is all education is vocational education, because everybody is out there wanting to get a job when 

they complete their credentials. We might keep that in mind as 

something to talk about. 

Mr. Bates, you recommended we consider ways to increase work 

based learning as part of the Perkins Act reauthorization. I think 

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we can all agree that work based learning is important and it benefits students. If you want to say more about that, okay, but I think 

we get that. 

Tell me what Toyota did to get the schools on board with this 

idea because that is usually a big hurdle to face. 

Mr. BATES. Yes, that is a good question, Congresswoman. One of 

the things we had to do when we first were looking into this program is we had to be very honest with the schools. The community 

college came to our facility and were asking us how they were 

doing. 

We had to tell them, unfortunately, the graduates and the students that they were producing were not meeting our qualifications. That was measured through a pre-employment test skills 

test, technical test, that the graduates had to take. We had a 25 

percent pass rate, which is not very good. 

They were very willing to hear and take that knowledge, and we 

shared with them the AMT program Toyota had utilized in Kentucky, and they then went out of their way and visited the communities and colleges in Kentucky. They went to Mississippi. They 

saw the value of this program, and they also saw and recognized 

the value of cooperative work experiences. 

I think that experience allowed them to then realize the benefit 

of it. The other benefit that we had locally is one of the directors 

of the program had gone through many, many years ago a tool and 

die journeyman’s apprenticeship. He was able to then also realize 

the value of his work experience in getting to where he was in his 

career. 

Those types of experiences and reminding the schools that their 

job is to help produce students who can find employment, and the 

best way to do that is to provide them an education and also provide them with an opportunity to apply that education and develop 

that skill. 

Ms. FOXX. I have talked with Toyota people about the T–TEN 

program and about how you involve smaller employers in your program, too. I want to commend Toyota for having the perspective 

that it is important to help people get a good education throughout 

the community because you share these people back and forth. 

I am a big proponent, as my colleagues know, of apprenticeships, 

internships, on-the-job. I understand that Toyota has not registered 

the AMT program with the Department of Labor. Can you discuss 

the reasons you opted not to register the program? 

Mr. BATES. I think I can answer that question simply as logistics. 

The AMT program is not just a program that Toyota is doing by 

itself. We are really dependent upon the schools to provide the curriculum and the training. We have over 160 other companies that 

are part of the program in a variety of different States. To coordinate what that would require to get it federally recognized would 

be a very difficult endeavor. 

I would say, however, in my understanding of federally recognized apprentice programs, what we have would meet the qualifications for that program. 

Ms. FOXX. Thank you very much. Mr. Tse, at what age do you 

think schools should start exposing students to career exploration 

and CTE learning opportunities? 

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Mr. TSE. Congresswoman, I personally feel the earlier the better. 

I think kids should make their own choices, they should be able to 

explore what is right for them as early as possible. As Senator 

Kaine mentioned earlier, I think middle school would be a great 

starting point for kids to look at different paths they want to take 

in life. 

Ms. FOXX. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, just one quick comment 

about the 25 percent pass rate. It does us no good to keep throwing 

money at these programs if we do not have accountability, and they 

are not producing what it is we need. 

I think this hearing is great, telling us how we need to reform 

the programs to get what we need for the money we are paying. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentlelady’s time has expired. Ms. 

Bonamici? 

Ms. BONAMICI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. 

Ranking Member, I am very glad we are having this discussion 

today about how to strengthen the Perkins Career and Technical 

Education Act. It is something that comes up at almost every single high school I visit. 

In St. Helens, Oregon, which is a town of about 13,000 people in 

rural Columbia County, there is a view of Mount St. Helens, that 

is where the town’s name came from, they have five different CTE 

programs, all of which serve the community. They have an early 

childhood education program that runs a day care center. They are 

the only high school in Oregon that has a AAA certified auto repair 

shop. 

When I met with the instructor, he said we do not just teach students how to repair cars, I teach them business ethics, there are 

so many lessons there. Their construction students build tiny 

homes, which is kind of a win-win for communities that have housing challenges. 

I have seen so many students who are engaged because of the 

availability of these classes. Sherwood High School in my district 

has a girls only welding class. It is always full with a wait list. 

Newberg High School has a fabulous culinary program where students are learning chemistry and science as well as culinary skills. 

One of the things I want to emphasize, we all know about the 

skills gap. There are so many examples of CTE courses that are designed to really meet the local needs. Another example from my 

district is Yamhill Carlton High School in Yamhill County, in partnership with Chemeketa Community College. They have viticulture 

programs to teach people how to work in the wine industry, which 

is a big part of the economy there. It is the only high school I know 

of with a vineyard. They are teaching students the skills they need 

for those local jobs. 

As Senator Kaine mentioned, often times these CTE classes inspire students to do well in their other courses as well, and I am 

concerned that we are in a situation where we are denying opportunities to students to experience CTE courses, just because there 

may not be jobs available in that particular area. 

Students are learning important skills, like collaboration, communication, responsibility, as well as academics. I would have concern if we are only giving these opportunities to students if there 

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are jobs that match up in the local community at that period of 

time. 

This is education. We need to make sure that students are having skills for the jobs of tomorrow that we might not even know 

about as well as the jobs of today. I am sure I speak for all my colleagues when I say I hope we can reauthorize Perkins and provide 

States and educators with the direction and resources they need. 

I know both Ms. Foxx and Mr. Wilson talked about the work 

based programs. Boeing in Oregon, for example, has an internship 

program, and they pay students to learn. Some of them go on to 

take positions with Boeing, many go to other similar manufacturing companies or go to apprenticeship programs that are operated jointly by Boeing and the International Associations of Machinists and Aerospace Workers. 

So I wonder if you could discuss, Mr. Bates, briefly, because I 

want to have time for another question, how are those work based 

learning opportunities—how can we expand those but particularly 

with focus on some of the rural areas? 

Mr. BATES. Yes, I think that is an excellent question, and that 

is a struggle in my State as well, in Tennessee. We have a large 

rural population that struggles to have those opportunities. 

I think one of the things that is very helpful is the community 

college system in my area does reach out to over a 10 county area, 

and most of them are rural counties. One of the things that we 

have done is reach out to all the various high schools in those counties and educate them about the programs that are available, the 

CTE type programs. 

We have visited high schools, and we have talked to them about 

the value of manufacturing and the skills necessary to learn and 

be able to be effective in manufacturing. 

One of the things that is important is to also help them recognize 

that if we are able to provide them with good job opportunities, 

provide them with a great education, that their time in learning 

those skills are going to be beneficial to them in the long run. 

Ms. BONAMICI. In the remaining few seconds, I want each of you 

to just talk about the importance of evidence-based practices, and 

we need to have ongoing research to help identify proven strategies. Any thoughts on how important that is, to make sure we are 

engaging all students in proven programs? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Perhaps I will begin. I think career and technical 

education is a natural fit for evidence-based practice. There are lots 

of examples out there, not only of exactly the skill sets that are 

needed within the curriculum but also the outcomes. 

As we talk to employers across Louisiana, they have said to us 

show me a quality program and we will show you graduates that 

are making a great income. The evidence not only is happening 

within the curriculum but as well within the earnings side of 

things. 

Ms. BONAMICI. I see my time has expired. I yield back. Thank 

you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman KLINE. I thank the lady for yielding back. Dr. Roe? 

Mr. ROE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tse, I can do a very sophisticated operation on your wife or your family, but my air condiCEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

44 

tioner does not work on the third floor of my house right now, and 

I need you in Tennessee. 

We are not a wealthy State in Tennessee. We do not have a State 

income tax. We have the lowest per capita debt in the Nation. We 

had the largest education gains in the country for three years in 

a row. We had the second fastest job growth. We have no road 

debt. We are a very well run and managed State, yet we recognized 

in our State that career and technical education was incredibly important. We are the only State in the Union that provides free community college and technical education. 

If you leave the workforce, let’s say you lose your job, something 

happened to your job where you were, there is a program called 

Tennessee Reconnect. You can come back in and be retrained. This 

was something we recognized for the future of our State. 

It will not pay dividends for 10, 15, 20 years, but Tennessee is 

investing heavily in CTE education. 

One of the things I want to get to fairly quickly—by the way, just 

another comment, during the height of the recession, 90 percent of 

the people who graduated from our technical schools got jobs, during the height of the recession, when other people were looking for 

jobs everywhere. 

There is a huge need for what you are doing. I am totally supportive. What I want to do is if Tennessee can do this and make 

this investment, and we have like the 4th or 5th lowest per capita 

income in the country, why don’t other States do it? 

What I want to know is how do we streamline this, and Dr. Sullivan, you touched on it in your comments about the four or five 

things we could do. How can we make this money go further? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Thank you for your question. I think probably the 

beginning point is to have consolidated plans across educational 

sectors. The notion of having a local application plan for a secondary school system and a separate plan for postsecondary education, both of whom are probably trying to engage with employers 

separately, is a non-starter. It really is not very efficient use of the 

dollars. 

When we begin to think about it, we have to think about the act, 

more so turning the telescope around from the other end, and begin 

to think of it from the labor market perspective and the employer 

perspective, rather than from the educational entity perspective. I 

think that is a big shift in our thinking. 

Mr. ROE. That is how you would coordinate the WIOA that we 

did a couple of years ago. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ROE. Mr. Bates, one of the things I wanted to ask was basically what you all did at Toyota was private sector driven. You had 

to get skilled technicians to work in your plant in Jackson, Tennessee, or otherwise you could not be competitive in the world. 

Mr. BATES. That is correct. 

Mr. ROE. You reached out to the technical schools, private sector 

reached out to the public sector, and you worked together to try to 

create this opportunity not only for the students but for job creation. Am I correct? 

Mr. BATES. Yes. 

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Mr. ROE. Is that the way we should be going? I believe this top 

down approach we do here, where we try to tell you what to do, 

is the wrong way. I believe the bottom end approach where you all 

are on the ground working every day, you know what your needs 

are—one of the things we have not mentioned, and in a bipartisan 

way, we worked on this last week. 

One of the things I hear at home all the time is can you pass 

a drug test, something as simple as that, can you just pass a drug 

test. Will you show up to work on time. Those are soft skills, I realize, but those are just as important as the other technical skills 

that you are learning. 

One other question I have is as the committee looks into this reauthorization of Perkins, what reforms should we consider to allow 

States to meet the unique educational business needs? What 

should we do? 

Mr. BATES. I think it is important to reach out to the local industry to find out what specifically is necessary. I have to give credit 

to Governor Haslan in the State of Tennessee. Many years ago, 

four or five years ago, he went through the entire State and had 

roundtables with educators, with local industry, and had discussions, what is it that we need to provide. 

In our community, it was we need assistance with helping to provide for the skilled training for the skilled technicians for our future workforce. He was able to take that information from across 

the State and develop various programs that allow us to have 

things like you mentioned, Tennessee Reconnect, Tennessee Promise, which encourages young people to look at technical education 

and community colleges as a way to get that technical education 

for their future. 

Mr. ROE. Many people, as has been pointed out, will just use that 

as a stepping stone to then go further their education in something 

else as Mr. Tse did. 

One final comment. I think one of the frustrations I have in this 

place is we have an overtime rule that is going to come out this 

week. The University of Tennessee, one of my alma maters, complying with that one rule, not a law but a rule, is going to add 4 

percent to the tuition of every student that goes to the University 

of Tennessee, whereas one of the biggest barriers to education 

today is cost. 

Vanderbilt University, complying with all the rules and regulations they have to do, costs them $150 million to comply with government rules and regulations. 

I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Pocan, you are 

recognized. 

Mr. POCAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate it. Thank 

you to the witnesses. I get a chance to visit a number of technical 

schools, not only in our State, but in other States. One of the 

things they always point out is the value of the Perkins’ money, 

and they show me what they used it for and how many people it 

is helping. That is really appreciated. 

In fact, just last week, I was at Gateway Technical College. They 

had a group of children, a couple busloads of children, doing Sumo 

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46 

wrestling robots, to get the interest, and it was great watching the 

energy and participation on that. 

I do want to echo, I think, Ms. Fudge’s request about why it is 

still very important that we look at the funding. I have seen the 

funding in these facilities. 

I would like to try to get to three areas. The first one, Mr. Bates, 

in one of your suggestions, you talked about more student participation. I was hoping you could just expand on that a little bit, and 

also talk about teacher participation. I think as Senator Kaine just 

started mentioning a little bit, we need that pipeline of those teachers, especially people entering mid-career, but often they do not 

have a lot of say in the Perkins program directly. Could you just 

address that point you were talking about and maybe add about 

teachers? 

Mr. BATES. Teacher involvement is absolutely critical. One of the 

things we have done at our facility is we have reached out to teachers and exposed them to what today’s manufacturing is. 

In fact, while we have students come in and they walk through 

our plant, and they are bright-eyed and excited about the technology that we have, I have always found the facial expressions of 

the teachers much more entertaining, because they cannot believe 

the amount of technology that we have. 

We have robotics that are moving pieces of product. We have a 

lot of automation that is moving things back and forth. They cannot believe that manufacturing is the way it is today. 

That exposure to a teacher is extremely important. 

We have offered summer externships for teachers to come and 

work in our plant for the summer, whether they are a math teacher, whether they are a science teacher, we have even had English 

teachers come and work in Toyota facilities, to learn what it is like 

to work in manufacturing so they can then go back to their students and talk about how what they are teaching applies in the 

real world. 

That exposure and giving teachers that opportunity to see what 

manufacturing is, is absolutely critical in their further education 

and understanding. 

Mr. POCAN. Great, thank you. Dr. Sullivan, I had listening sessions last week in the district. Someone came and talked to me 

about specifically the question—I was hoping you might be able to 

address this or if you know, some best practices, we have a lot of 

people who actually are doing gaming in our area. It is one of our 

three kind of growing industries. 

They said that Perkins is not always available for that, and 

sometimes they are afraid that some of the things we may be 

teaching with Perkins might be things that might be a little bit 

maybe antiquated in a few years. 

Can you just address that a little bit? I would like to be able to 

get back to my constituent. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Sure. Thank you for the question. This is one of 

the areas where I think we need to aim the Perkins’ resource at 

those efforts that are in emerging markets. Sometimes, that puts 

you on the bleeding edge rather than the cutting edge. 

I think you have to be careful that the investment is being made 

in an area that is going to pay off for your communities, for your 

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schools, for your colleges, but imagine for a second the critical 

thinking that goes on in some of the gaming programming areas. 

They are certainly a benefit to the student. If you can demonstrate 

that it is an emerging market, I think it makes sense to be able 

to make those investments. 

Mr. POCAN. Thank you. Just a general question, for anyone in 

the remaining minute and a half. The point that Senator Kaine 

brought up about a stigma surrounding CTE sometimes in our society. 

I have Madison, Wisconsin in my district. I have heard stories 

of people are picked up in cabs from the airport by people with 

Ph.D.’s in Russian literature, but I have a buddy who got a technical degree and is working on safety and construction sites, and 

he is doing extremely well for himself in just a short amount of 

time coming out of technical college. 

Can you address that a little bit, some ideas about how we can 

help work on that issue? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. I think we have to begin with the notion that 

there is a great deal of math and science that goes on for that 

welding faculty member. Imagine for a second, geometry, as an example, that goes into angles, as someone begins to think about how 

to apply two pieces of metal together, the chemistry behind it. 

We have a mindset, I think, that has to be broken to begin to 

think about the academic side of what goes on in career and technical education. The other side we mentioned a second ago with 

critical thinking. There simply is not an area of education more so 

than career and technical education where critical thinking is important. 

Mr. POCAN. Anyone else want to address that? 

Mr. BATES. I think the stigma is unfortunately there, but what 

we can do is help to educate what career and technical education 

is. The science and the math that our technicians are utilizing to 

program the robots, to troubleshoot the robots, that is engineering 

work that is being done. It is not what people think of career and 

technical education today. 

Mr. POCAN. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Walberg? 

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the witnesses for being here today, and your testimonies have been instructive. I just want to thank my colleague, Dr. Roe, for bringing 

up the overtime rule. We are talking about making a value and 

using our resources wisely for training, especially in CTE, and yet 

we find ourselves siphoning off more opportunities as a result of 

wrong-headed regulatory impingements on the system working. Appreciate you bringing it up. 

Dr. Sullivan, I have talked with a number of employers, including Toyota, in my district, who have told me they do not believe 

that students are presented with a full picture of their educational 

and career options. 

You have pointed out some things about teachers coming through 

site visits and being amazed with what they are seeing, and maybe 

that is one of the key concerns. 

As a result, they find it difficult to encourage students to pursue 

CTE careers, careers that are amazingly diverse, as I have walked 

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through manufacturing sites, small businesses and large alike. A 

diverse career field, financially rewarding, fulfilling. In fact, some 

jobs that will never leave. They are there. 

If a person is willing to climb an energy pole or work on a roof 

or to work in a basement, build a construction, a machinist, too 

and die makers, welders. I can go on and on of areas that are 

amazing with opportunity. 

What role should career guidance and career awareness activities 

play in promoting the value of CTE programs, and ultimately, fulfilling careers? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Sure. Career guidance is certainly a critical component, but I think it begins even before that. It is so very important to have industry engaged from the very beginning. 

A classic example, just yesterday, in fact, JPMorgan Chase announced an investment in the City of New Orleans. I was at Warren Easton High School for the New Skills for Youth initiative. 

Where JPMorgan Chase sees an opportunity to invest in the people 

because there are specific outcomes that they are looking for, it is 

indeed an investment, not a gift. 

Having those students exposed to local industry early on, be it 

middle school, as was pointed out a few minutes ago, I think it is 

important that we not lay that burden upon counselors only. It is 

important that counselors have partners in business and industry 

from the beginning that not only informs where a student may go, 

but it also informs the curriculum, it informs the equipment, it informs the teaching background that individual faculty should have. 

It also ultimately leads then so students begin to think of our institutions and our programs as an entre into a specific industry. 

That is a view that I am not sure many students have today, but 

we certainly have to begin to change that direction. 

I think as you have industry involved with those counselors, they 

have a much better opportunity to tell the story of the career path. 

Mr. WALBERG. You bring up a great point there, that comradeship of industry with education. We also have a challenge of the 

peer pressure that I am seeing from parents who think Billy and 

Susie down the street went to University of Michigan, so my 

Tommy and Nancy have to go there as well, as opposed to seeing 

the unbelievable opportunities that are expanded beyond that, not 

just simply with a four year institution but sometimes the stacking 

of certificates. How do we deal with that? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. You are absolutely correct, and I will give you one 

example. As chancellor at Delgado Community College, we would 

point to our allied health programs where more than one-half of 

the students graduating from those health care programs already 

held a Baccalaureate degree. These are students going back to college to earn a credential that would ensure they were able to go 

to work. 

Over time, I think enough graduates living in basements will 

help us as a Nation understand that perhaps alignment of curriculum and alignment of programs, the work that has gone on by 

Tony Carnevale and the folks at Georgetown, really sort of aims us 

at major matters. How much you earn is directly related to what 

skills you have. As a Nation, I think ultimately we will get there, 

but we are certainly not moving as quickly as we should. 

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Mr. WALBERG. Mr. Bates, as the committee looks to reform and 

approve this law, how can we streamline programs to ensure Federal dollars enable students to develop the right skills to meet the 

21st century needs? 

Mr. BATES. Again, I think it is important that we have involvement with education and industry leaders to talk about what are 

those skills so that we are targeting that funding to the appropriate skills that are going to not only supply the skilled workforce 

for today but that industry that understands what the technology 

is going to be in the future. 

By sharing that knowledge with the educational partners, we are 

able to make sure that the curriculum is established that is going 

to fund the future training needs as well. 

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Takano? 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly want to push 

back a little bit on the overtime rule. I might just mention that in 

1975, over 65 percent of salaried workers in America were entitled 

to overtime pay. Today, that percentage of the workforce is down 

to 8 percent. It is high time that we updated the overtime rule, and 

I am very, very eager to see what the President does today. 

Mr. Tse, I wanted to just congratulate you on your very brave 

and courageous path. 

Mr. TSE. Thank you. 

Mr. TAKANO. Especially as an Asian American young man, there 

is a tremendous amount of pressure for us to succeed in higher 

education. I know you must have suffered mightily from the expectations of your family. 

You are such a great example to so many Asian American young 

men and women across the country to show that not everybody has 

to go to college to succeed. Indeed, I think you probably have 

stackable credentials that you have plans or you have already done 

so, getting your degrees in higher ed. You have made a remarkable 

path, and you have shown people that way. 

We need to destigmatize the pathway for all minorities because 

of the past reputation of how vocational education was a dumping 

ground, and a way to put people who were ‘‘not qualified’’ for college into programs that did not serve them well. 

We need to re-do the image of career and technical education for 

all Americans, and you certainly serve as a great example. I wanted to just take a moment to say that. 

Dr. Sullivan, yesterday the Department of Education announced 

that the Obama administration would make Pell grants available 

to high school students who simultaneously take college courses at 

44 colleges or universities. 

How can we encourage dual enrollment opportunities, and how 

does the Louisiana Community and Technical College system foster 

opportunities in the context of our discussion today? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Sure. Thank you for your question. Dual enrollment is an absolutely critical strategy to solving the Nation’s attainment issue. The dual enrollment effort needs to be focused, 

however, not simply on completion of courses, but rather on completion of credentials, and those demand credentials matter. 

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Dual enrollment has been a strategy and a focus for us in Louisiana for a number of years now. I can tell you that the career and 

technical education side has a particular bin for those students who 

may not perform well in the academic areas simply out of interest 

as much as anything, but we are also seeing a large number of minority students who are enrolling in those career and technical 

education fields, be it dual enrollment, we are seeing those students complete credentials and benefit going forward. 

One of the changes that has happened for us as a Nation, I believe, in higher education, is education is now becoming much more 

iterative in nature. We talk about stackable credentials. Many of 

these students are completing their first credential, going out into 

the world of work, and then being able to gain those certifications. 

You heard it earlier from one of my fellow witnesses here about 

the ability to come back and gain some certification that allows you 

to go to that next level. Dual enrollment certainly feeds into that 

iterative nature as well. 

Funding for dual enrollment is an absolutely key strategy for us 

as a Nation. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you. Thank you. I am very focused on that 

area, trying to make that happen, make our Federal funding, 

whether it is Pell grants or whatever, State grants that go into 

this, these funding streams for dual enrollment are important, and 

we need to be able to give you the pots of money to reduce the class 

size, because it is expensive education as well. 

I want to make sure I throw out a call out to Toyota and Mr. 

Bates, remarkable stuff you are doing with the AMT program, 

which is really maintenance, it is maintaining the machines, but 

it is not the maintenance of our fathers or grandfathers’ day, 

sweeping floors, maintaining the place. This is about maintaining 

robots and fixing robots. 

Mr. BATES. Yes. 

Mr. TAKANO. There was no Federal money involved. This was 

driven by a partnership. I want to congratulate you for working 

with the community college system and that community college 

system working with you. 

Mr. BATES. Yes. I will not say there was not any Federal dollars. 

The community college was able to use some prior Perkins’ money 

to be able to provide for some of the equipment and the training 

that was necessary for the instructors. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you for clarifying that. So there was some 

federal. Mr. Tse, quickly before my time runs out, I see as low as 

5th grade, students have a self-awareness of whether they are good 

with their hands or not, things like that. I would take it back from 

middle school all the way down to 5th grade as far as what we do 

to reach younger people. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman’s time has expired. Mr. Allen? 

Mr. ALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank the 

panel. This has been a very good discussion. When it comes to reauthorizing programs, at least everywhere I go in my district and 

really the State and across the country, people ask me when are 

you all going to quite spending so much money, when are you going 

to balance your budget. 

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51 

That makes the reauthorization of these programs very difficult, 

and that is why we are here today, to try to determine where we 

can get the best bang for the dollars we invest. That is what the 

American people expect of us. 

Obviously, one of the things we have to do is grow this economy 

and get people back to work, able bodied people back to work. That 

will help us with our mandatory spending problem, it will reduce 

that, which would lead to balancing this budget. 

As a former member of the business community, I am committed 

to growing the economy, and I know you have to invest money to 

get a return, to grow revenues. In fact, that is why I ran for the 

United States Congress. 

As far as the thing that I see at least with education and developing a skilled workforce is motivation. How do we motivate young 

people to want to go and get the training and get a good job? 

One of the greatest gifts God has given me is to give people that 

opportunity to get a good job, give them the dignity and respect 

they deserve, and allowing them to support their family, their 

church, their community, and this Nation. 

So, Mr. Tse, you obviously were motivated. From your personal 

testimony, what clicked in you that said hey, this is what I want 

to do? Of course, obviously, you have been very successful. 

How can we apply that to those in the fields who are experts to 

make sure every student, everyone, gets that opportunity, and 

makes the best of the opportunity as you have? 

Mr. TSE. Thank you for that question, Congressman. I personally 

feel for me, at least, in my personal experience, it was the gratification of seeing something being built, instead of just looking 

through a textbook of why you need to do something a certain way. 

It was actually realization of hey, if I do it this one way, it is 

going to take me longer and it is more difficult to do, versus doing 

it this other way, which is—I will call it the smarter way. It may 

not be the easier way, but it is the smarter way of doing certain 

things. 

I think that is what I needed, that was the drive or the little 

push that I needed in high school to realize that hey, college is not 

the only thing out there for you. I may not be super good at getting 

good grades and reading out of a textbook and learning that way, 

but I can certainly learn with my hands in being able to do something like physically with my body. I think seeing something built 

is one of the greatest encouragements. 

Mr. ALLEN. Yes, I worked my way through college as a welder. 

I have always enjoyed and still enjoy that, and was a general contractor in my business life. I, too, like to build buildings and understand your interest in the challenges it presents. 

Obviously, HVAC work has come a long way. It is very sophisticated this day and time. 

As far as the CTE programs, students with the skills needed in 

these high demand jobs, Mr. Bates, as far as students earning 

these industry recognized credentials, and students completing 

their programs to enter the workforce, what are the biggest obstacles that you see? 

Mr. BATES. I think the biggest obstacle, Congressman, is again 

perception and awareness. Many students for whatever reason are 

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not aware of what is required to work in today’s manufacturing 

business. They make a wrong assumption that I have to get an engineering degree in order to be successful. 

What we have been able to do by reaching out to these schools 

and educating teachers, counselors, and students, is to help them 

understand that they do need technical training. They do need a 

technical skill, but you can accomplish that debt free, you can accomplish that locally by participating at your local technical school 

or community college. 

I think by educating them and helping them to understand what 

is available to them, they will make the right choice for them because they know it is available. 

Mr. ALLEN. Good, thank you so much, and I yield back. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman yields back. Ms. Clark? 

Ms. CLARK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the 

panelists for being here today on this incredibly important topic. 

In Massachusetts, I just wanted to give you a little snapshot, in 

the 2014–2015 school year, we had 2,800 culinary art students, 

2,700 health assistance, 2,200 automotive technology, 2,000 studying electricity, 1,900 carpentry, 1,700 cosmetology, 1,500 marketing, and 1,400 in early education and care, with a wait list of 

5,000 high school students who could not find an entry point. 

We have a recent study out by Northeastern University finding 

that Massachusetts business owners find our vo-tech school graduates to be more job ready than their peers who went through college prep programs. 

We know how vital this is, not only to our students, but to our 

economy. One of my questions is as we look at some of our European counterparts, in particular, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, 

we see these robust apprenticeship programs that we have touched 

on a little bit. 

Senator Kaine has offered some legislation that would give tax 

credits for businesses and employers who are establishing apprenticeship positions. Are there other things you think we should be 

doing or policies to further the robust public/private partnerships 

that you have already discussed? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Thank you for your question, and certainly apprenticeship is a key strategy in the overall effort. I will tell you 

that most recently in some work with Dow Chemical, our Louisiana 

Community and Technical College systems really formalized the 

apprenticeship effort. 

One of the things we have learned through that process is not 

only the value of apprenticeship, as we have known that for a number of years, but also the need to sort of streamline the processes 

for approval. I think that was referenced earlier in some testimony. 

That is one of the areas that I would really encourage us to think 

of, how do we create apprenticeship programs’ approval processes 

and funding opportunities that are in a much more streamlined 

kind of approach. 

The other portion of this is apprenticeship is a formalized way 

for us to develop an industry relationship that we probably should 

have had anyway. There is an important element or underlying factor there of business and industry relationship. 

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Ms. CLARK. Mr. Tse, do you believe that the apprenticeship also 

has a component that could help reduce some of the residual stigma that we are seeing? Do you think that is an important piece, 

if people are able to see the jobs and the opportunities sooner and 

in a more concrete way? 

Mr. TSE. Yes, absolutely. I feel the quicker that students are 

able—the younger people are able to see that these job openings 

are out there and that they can streamline their way directly from 

school into employment, that is more encouragement for them to go 

through these programs. 

I think the quicker we can show them that, it is kind of like the 

light at the end of the tunnel, as soon as we can show them, it is 

more likely they would be able to succeed in those programs and 

enroll even. 

Ms. CLARK. Great. My other question, the Perkins CTE Act also 

provides supports for special populations. There is a long list, but 

including individuals with disabilities, low income, pursuing nontraditional career paths, single parents, displaced homemakers, 

and English language learners. 

Of the people who come through your doors, either as trainees 

or recently trained employees, how many do you think fit this special population definition, and can you tell me about some of the 

support services for these students? Particularly, I have in mind 

single parents. We see child care as an incredible cost for families 

to bear. I wondered if any of you had experience in that area in 

particular. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. The American community college is typically 

about two-thirds female, typically many of those female students 

are single mothers. What we traditionally see as we look at the 

special populations are a great deal of additional services needed 

for child care, as you pointed out, also different kinds of accommodations. 

I think as we consider special populations, it is really important 

that we not leave out the American citizen, who for whatever reason was not able to earn a high school diploma. Most students do 

not drop out of high school as a result of academic issues. They 

drop out of high school for social and personal reasons. 

Where do they turn if they do not have that opportunity to be 

trained and educated so they can pursue a happy life? The American dream, as we know it. 

I would just encourage us to think about expanding that definition. The second group, there are a great number of benefits that 

are available to returning veterans, but I really think it is important that we consider returning veterans as a component of those 

special populations. 

Also to sort of get out of the mindset that special populations are 

the traditional definition that has been in the Perkins Act, and expanding the possibilities for roles or areas where perhaps some of 

our more traditional students have not been represented as greatly 

as perhaps they have in the past. 

Ms. CLARK. Thank you. I see my time has expired. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentlelady yields back. Mr. Rokita? 

Mr. ROKITA. I thank the chairman for the hearing, and I appreciate everyone’s testimony. I was going to start last with this, but 

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Dr. Sullivan, since you mentioned pursuing a happy life, i.e. the 

pursuit of happiness, let me start there. 

What concerns me most about career and technical education— 

by the way, I am a supporter. In the subcommittee I lead, we have 

hearings around it and all that. My last direct interaction with career and technical education was back in the 80s. From then to 

now, I worried about the ability to critically think, and if that is 

being taught, right? 

If you are going to run a free Republic, we need engaged citizenry who can question our government, decipher the role between 

government and the individual, the Federal Government and State 

governemtn, on and on. 

I am not talking about partisan politics. I am not even talking 

about civics courses. The ability to critically engage and think in 

order to maintain a free society. 

How does CTE programs do that in the here and now? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Thank you for your question. I think that is an 

absolutely vital part of the whole career and technical education 

landscape. 

If you were to look across the industry based certifications that 

are approved out there, in any given field, I think you will find 

woven in every single one of those industry based credentials a 

component of critical thinking. 

It is the foundation of nearly every aspect, be it manufacturing, 

be it HVAC, construction, nearly any of the fields you can think of, 

even the medical fields. 

One of the most important facets of teaching any of the medical 

programs is that ability to critically think about what is going on 

with our patients. 

Mr. ROKITA. Does it translate into the broader social — 

Mr. SULLIVAN. There is no question it translates into the broader 

social, and also the thing that I think is really important is it provides a foundation upon which these students can continue their 

education and pursue advanced degrees. 

That ability to critically think, our faculty say this to us regularly, they come to us and say a student who has already earned 

college credit and earned a credential and has been out in the 

workforce and understands the issues of day to day interactions 

and problem solving, is a better student in the classroom. 

Mr. ROKITA. That is my follow up to Mr. Tse. I call these on 

ramps and off ramps, this idea that you might start out in HVAC 

technical ed, but if underneath it all you really are the guy to own 

your own HVAC company? What if you really are after all the entrepreneur and you want to pursue those skills? 

Were you worried at all or do you think that career and technical 

education could cut off some things so you do not have an on ramp 

back to a more traditional education or path that would lead you 

to be an owner or project manager like yourself or something like 

that? 

Mr. TSE. I was a little concerned at first when I was initially enrolled into the program, thinking that I would pretty much spend 

the rest of my days working in the field. 

Mr. ROKITA. Which is fine for some. 

Mr. TSE. Right, which is perfectly fine. 

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Mr. ROKITA. Maybe for many. 

Mr. TSE. After I had started my apprenticeship program and 

learned more about how my apprenticeship program credits would 

be able to transfer into college credits and things like that, it kind 

of educated me and told me there were more paths after working 

in the field, that I could eventually own my own business if I wanted to. 

Mr. ROKITA. You did not feel any paths cut off from yourself? 

Mr. TSE. No, sir. 

Mr. ROKITA. Great. Thank you very much. Mr. Bates, talking 

about my subcommittee with great members on it, we held a hearing where we heard about the need for meaningful engagement 

among the business community in designing effective CTE programs and helping students explore careers available. 

I have toured several programs. Can you please list some of the 

equipment and training that Perkins should make eligible, especially the equipment? Is there some kind of eligible use for Perkins’ 

money that would be advisable at this point? 

Mr. BATES. Yes. We have used Perkins’ money in our local community college to purchase some of the training and equipment 

that is used in our lab. Hydraulic trainers, pneumatic trainers, 

welding simulators and welding equipment are all necessary for 

the proper training. 

Mr. ROKITA. Anything we are missing? 

Mr. BATES. At this time, I am not aware of anything, no. 

Mr. ROKITA. Okay. Keeping with you, Mr. Bates, you describe in 

your testimony how the AMT program expanded from one partnership between the plant and a college, to now approximately 400 

students partnered with 160 companies. 

Given the rapid growth of the program, how have you preserved 

the quality? Any growing pains or anything? 

Mr. BATES. There is always growing pains in any situation. I 

think the one way that we have been able to preserve the quality 

of the curriculum is that we continue to be involved. 

We are regularly meeting with our local community college, not 

only an annual basis, but we have quarterly instructions with our 

maintenance leaders at our local plants. They are talking and sitting down with the local education leaders and understanding what 

the technology is, making sure we have the right equipment, and 

making sure the curriculum is teaching what is necessary for the 

future. 

Mr. ROKITA. So, basic communication and leadership? 

Mr. BATES. Absolutely. 

Mr. ROKITA. Thank you, all three of you, for your leadership. I 

yield. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman yields back. Mrs. Davis, you 

are recognized. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really do appreciate the 

hearing today. I think it reminds us there is a lot of work to be 

done out there, but on the other hand, there are best practices 

around the country, and I think often the problem is how do you 

scale that, and how do you engage, when you at reauthorizations, 

what is it that is not necessarily prescriptive but guides school disCEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

56 

tricts, guides States throughout the country to do something that 

really has great merit down the line. 

A lot of great comments, really, your responses have been wonderful. Employability skills. We have talked a lot about technical 

skills. 

We know that employability skills are very, very important in 

how people are able to relate to one another in the workplace as 

well as to the task in front of them. 

Without again being prescriptive because I know people push 

back on those kinds of things, what do you think is critical in the 

reauthorization language that speaks to the issue of employability? 

We sometimes call them social emotional skills. How do you have 

the confidence often to even take risks and to talk about what the 

options are? 

How do you talk through that? It is communication, but it is a 

lot of things. Do you have some thoughts about that? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. The employability skills component is one that we 

have spent a great deal of time in Louisiana looking at, and one 

of the things we have determined is the most important or the biggest step that we could take is to have the actual employers in 

front of classrooms teaching employability skills. 

After all, they are the very same people that will be interviewing 

them, that will be reviewing their resumes and materials, and that 

will also be working with them on a daily basis to determine 

whether they can continue with the organization. 

Having that partnership there in a real and substantive way, 

having them in the classroom interfacing with students is certainly 

important. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. At what point do you think that is a good idea? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. As early in the program as possible. One of the 

things that we have also been able to do is place in certain programs capstone courses, so that industry has an opportunity not 

only to come in and teach employability skills but you can also bet 

they are doing a little bit of work trying to determine which of 

those students they want to hire first. 

One great example, a partner of ours has made substantial investments in Louisiana, particularly around the welding program 

area, but they have also been really valuable to us in teaching our 

students employability skills. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Mr. Bates, did you have a comment? 

Mr. BATES. Yes. I think those employment skills are absolutely 

essential, and as Dr. Sullivan mentioned, it needs to happen from 

the very beginning. In our AMT programs, before they even start 

their technical questions, they are going through what is it to be 

a professional in the workplace. 

They are learning about what an employer expects from their 

team members. They are learning about the importance of punctuality. They are learning about the importance of asking good 

questions. They are learning about the importance of being dressed 

appropriately for the workplace. 

We teach that prior to the program even beginning, and the expectation is the students will not only be that way in their cooperative work experience, but they are also going to act that way in the 

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classroom. The professors are expecting that as well in the classroom. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Should a lot of that be called out in legislation or 

do you think employability skills is a catch-all phrase that people 

can respond to? 

Mr. BATES. I think employment skills or employability skills, 

most educators and industry people understand what that means. 

I think it is important to encourage that in any type of legislation. 

Mrs. DAVIS. One of the other issues that we have talked about 

is teaching the teachers. I know that it makes so much difference 

when a company, for example, has a program for young people. We 

have one for middle school, Qualcomm does this in San Diego. The 

key is really that they engage the teachers early, months in advance, before the students come, and then the teachers participate, 

and then they are able to do it afterwards. 

That is unusual, I think. It is great. How do you see us trying 

to incorporate that into whether it is grant programs that perhaps 

companies can engage in? Obviously, Toyota does it with small 

businesses. How would you scale that? How would you find a way 

that we engage the teachers early and then they are able to continue to have the enthusiasm for the programs that the students 

have done? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. In Louisiana, we have a program every summer 

that we refer to as ‘‘Super Summer Institute,’’ where we bring together faculty members from all over Louisiana to earn the next 

level certification, to learn that next skill set. 

One of the tandem pieces of that is to be able to partner those 

faculty with industry partners so they have an experience beforehand and after the certification is earned. It gives perspective, I 

think, to what they are learning, and to the certification they are 

earning. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentlelady’s time has expired. I want to 

welcome Mr. Langevin to our hearing, and without objection, he 

will be allowed to ask questions of our witnesses following questioning from our committee members, and we still have a couple of 

those left. Mr. Byrne, you are recognized. 

Mr. BYRNE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Sullivan, I am the 

former chancellor for Postsecondary Education, State of Alabama, 

former chairman of the State Workforce Planning Council. I know 

what you do, and thank you for what you do. It is hard work. I was 

also on the state school board for eight years, so I saw CTE and 

Perkins on both sides, K–12 and postsecondary. 

One of the things that I have seen up here in Washington is 

there are plenty of things we are doing up here that we do not do 

very well and we waste money on. This is not one of them. I am 

sure we can do it better. That is partly what this is all about, to 

learn how we can do it better, how we can do it better so you can 

do your job better. We do not train anybody here. You do. We need 

to make sure we are giving you everything we possibly can to help 

you train people. 

We treat poor people in America like they have some sort of an 

incurable disease, there is no way to lift them out of poverty. We 

just feed them a bunch of money to take care of the symptoms of 

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poverty, instead of saying we can let you out of poverty, and what 

you do every day is lift people out of poverty. 

Being from Alabama and Louisiana, I know what you are doing. 

I call it magic. You take somebody, probably the first person in 

their family that has ever done anything in the postsecondary environment, you take them from having no employable skill to having 

an employable skill, they go from being somebody with nothing to 

being somebody. 

And that is something we ought to be all about here in government and in Washington. Sometimes we get all gummed up in 

other things and miss that very important point. 

We did something we called ‘‘dual enrollment,’’ where we had 

kids in high schools, public high schools, people dually enrolled in 

a two year college. Literally, they could graduate from high school 

and in the same month get their—if it was an one year welding 

certificate, the certificate, or get an associate’s degree in a high demand field, and that seemed to work for us. 

But, we struggled getting people interested in technical education because we told everybody you got to go get a four year 

Bachelor’s degree in order to be successful. Mr. Tse is an example 

of where that is just not true. 

Mr. Tse, I wanted to ask you a question. I know you were thinking, there he was talking to Dr. Sullivan and all of a sudden he 

asks me a question. How far back should we start with young people in school, I am talking about before they get to a postsecondary 

environment, how far should we go back? Before high school? 

Mr. TSE. As I mentioned before, I think as early as possible. 

Mr. BYRNE. Give me like— 

Mr. TSE. I think middle school is a good start. 

Mr. BYRNE. Middle school. Like 7th grade? As early as that? 

Mr. TSE. Yes, as early as that. I think at that point people begin 

to—I think you can kind of see how a student or a young kid is 

doing academically at that point, and also look at what his interests or, his or her interests are. I think you should be able to open 

up those doors for them to explore and decide for themselves what 

they want to do in terms of higher education, whether it is going 

through a CTE program or going to college. I think that is a starting point. 

Mr. BYRNE. You are in the construction field, is that right? 

HVAC? 

Mr. TSE. Correct, which is directly related to construction. 

Mr. BYRNE. We probably could not teach 7th graders all the 

skills required by regulatory law to do everything in HVAC, but we 

could start them with some more basic type construction general 

skills, I guess? 

Mr. TSE. Sure. 

Mr. BYRNE. I would think that would apply to some other areas, 

do you not think, Dr. Sullivan, that we could branch out to? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Absolutely. You mentioned dual enrollment opportunities. By the way, commencement, this season of commencement 

that it is as close to a religious experience as you can have. 

Mr. BYRNE. It really is. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. You have the opportunity to go back to your district and experience commencement. It is certainly important. I do 

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think as we think about dual enrollment and we think about how 

far to go back into the curriculum, that just very basic career exploration, it is so very important. 

I have daughters at home, and I can tell you, at 6th grade, 7th 

grade, 8th grade, so very important that they understand what careers are available to them. 

Mr. BYRNE. You know, I had Associate degree nursing programs, 

and I could not figure out why we had a high attrition rate, so I 

brought the nursing deans in and I said what is the deal here, we 

have high demand for the nurses, got a big waiting list, yet we are 

not succeeding. They said too many of the nursing students were 

coming into the program with inadequate levels of science preparation in high school. So they couldn’t hack the rather significant 

amount of science that these nurses and are we seeing that in 

other fields as well, Dr. Sullivan? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. I think it sort of hints at the question in this national discussion that we have around student success, and I think 

we spent far too much time thinking about how we push more students through a program, and far too little time thinking about the 

economic pull that would pull people through programs, if we offer 

the programs that have the appropriate amount of economic pull 

in the marketplace. 

I think of our process technology programs. These are the folks 

who operate facilities up and down the river in the State of Louisiana, so important to our economy. We do not have a completion 

problem in those programs because those folks are ending those 

programs earning $60,000 to $65,000 a year in the very first year. 

I think our focus is probably much more well placed if we think 

about program alignment and offering the correct programs in the 

market. 

Mr. BYRNE. Great advice. Thank you, appreciate you being here. 

I yield back. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman yields back. Mr. DeSaulnier, 

you are recognized. 

Mr. DESAULNIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It really is a pleasure to be here and hear the consensus in the sense of urgency. 

When we see great programs, as some of my colleagues have 

talked about, it is sort of spiritual issues, as you mentioned Dr. 

Sullivan. Programs in my district, many people do not realize that 

in the Bay Area, we do still have industry, and in the east bay we 

have significant industry, insomuch that we frequently hear from 

our major employers like Chevron, and Shell, and Dow, that they 

have jobs that they cannot fill because there are not enough qualified young people. 

So, we have tried to create and we have successfully created 

wonderful career academies. There is nothing like going into a disadvantaged community, a high school, and see 25 to 30 kids and 

a message that says to the other 1,000 kids that there is a career 

out there where they can be an electrician or member of the UA, 

go out there and be a welder and make $65,000 to $75,000 a year, 

particularly in a high cost area. 

So, that is wonderful. We have great programs. But, the balance, 

Dr. Sullivan, you got to this in your initial comments about proper 

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oversight and performance, I think is where we sometimes struggle. 

The proper role for the Federal Government, and I do not disagree we should give more discretion to States and local government, but having been in the legislature and having been in the 

middle of a very difficult battle between—I remember private industry councils, and currently workforce investment boards, where 

the Chamber of Commerce for the State and the labor fed one of 

the most important pieces of legislation, was requiring workforce 

investment boards to actually have a minimum amount of their 

budget go to career, tech, and training. 

We had a heck of a fight because there are a lot of fiefdoms when 

the Federal Government, in my view, just advocates its role—so 

this goes to the balance, it is not saying we should be overly strict, 

but somewhere in there, Dr. Sullivan, it strikes me you have some 

experience, holding people accountable so they do not feel as if they 

can do whatever they want with the money around performance 

standards, and what the Federal Government’s role is to make sure 

that’s done. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Great question. This is one of the areas that we 

are most proud of in Louisiana that we done a great deal of work. 

We have been able to leverage the occupational forecast that our 

state completes every two years, and begins a six year look outward as to what the occupational forecast is by occupation. 

Once we had that data, we were then able to tier and base that 

data depending upon demand, so now our work is about funding 

the occupations and the programs that feed the occupations where 

there is greatest demand. 

It seems like a relatively simple concept. It can be difficult because obviously there are those programs that will become not as 

prevalent in the demand market, and yet they are programs that 

have been traditional programs in institutions. 

We have to be willing to make the hard decisions. When we 

talked earlier about the difficulty of spending, spending is perhaps 

a problem, but as was pointed out here, it is not a problem as it 

relates to Perkins because we are investing in people. We have to 

ensure that those people who are completing those programs are 

actually going to be able to earn the jobs that get them to that vision or dream they have for themselves. 

Mr. DESAULNIER. Mr. Bates, I sometimes hear from the private 

sector of sort of the cultural struggle of making sure the money is 

spent right, so in getting these partnerships right, getting the public agencies to work with private agencies. 

Do you have any sort of insights as to what makes your program 

work and what would add value? 

Mr. BATES. Well, I think the way we are making it work is that 

we are involved from the very beginning, that we have good communication between the various partners, and we have good communication with our local education provider. That’s been critical. 

It is not an easy task. It required a lot of people willing to say 

we have to look at the bigger picture of how we can provide a very 

robust program for our community so we can then have the future 

workforce that is necessary. 

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We have had to give up a little turf at times for the benefit of 

making sure that the program can be successful. 

Mr. DESAULNIER. Mr. Tse, I loved your testimony. As you were 

growing up and going through these decision making thresholds, it 

strikes me that a lot of it is just the stigma. Kids are led to believe 

that they are not going to be successful unless they become a doctor or lawyer, go to a four year school. 

Could you speak a little bit more to that and your personal journey in overcoming that? 

Mr. TSE. So yeah. In general, I think your parents play one of 

the biggest parts of the stigma, because even today, I think if we 

ask ourselves honestly. I think that still persists in these conversations with children growing up, you should be going to a four year 

college. 

I certainly would not be teaching my kid that in the future, but 

I think that is step one, all the parents that are basically guiding 

all their kids growing up, they should be the first ones to provide 

them the opportunity and encouragement to go and learn something outside of going to a four year college. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman’s time has expired. Mr. 

Grothman? 

Mr. GROTHMAN. First of all, just a general comment. I disagree 

a little bit with one of the comments made by one of the people 

questioned before. I do not think in America we ever remotely give 

up on poor people. We go out of the way to offer many programs 

to poor people that quite frankly middle class people do not have. 

If you want to start at the bottom, America is the place to succeed. 

I want to come back and agree with largely what you guys have 

said. My district has more manufacturing jobs in it than anywhere 

else in the country, and probably the biggest challenge my employers face is finding people to work. There are so many jobs out there 

which can’t be filled. 

My first question is for Mr. Sullivan, Dr. Sullivan. I recently had 

some tradesmen in my office, and they talked about all the people 

going back to their apprentice training at 26, 27, 28, who previously had a four year degree. I also talked to my local tech 

schools, you find people going back to tech school after they already 

have a four year degree. 

Do you find that is true in your area as well? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Absolutely, it is true. In fact, we have begun programs that specifically target that population at SOWELA Technical Community College in the southwest part of the State of Louisiana in response to a demand or need for more workforce from 

Sasol, the large partner that located there. 

We were able to go out and find those people who had completed 

a Baccalaureate degree, help them finish a process technology program in a matter of 16 weeks, really able to answer an immediate 

market demand, and also help someone who had earned a Baccalaureate degree to earn a great living for their families. 

Mr. GROTHMAN. Do you therefore feel we have too many people 

going to four year college in this country? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. I do not know that we can ever say there are too 

many people pursuing education, but I can tell you that we do have 

an alignment problem in this country. We certainly need to begin 

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to think more in terms of what value proposition we are able to 

bring to our students, and also I think the great equalizer in this, 

as pointed out a few minutes ago, is having industry involved in 

those decisions about what programs we are funding. 

Mr. GROTHMAN. The point is to me fairly obviously, if I have 

some poor kid who is taken in by a fancy brochure and graduates 

with an undergrad degree with $50,000 in debt, and then he is 

going to get his tech school degree or apprenticeship at age 26 or 

27, it would seem to me obvious that he made a mistake both timewise and cost-wise going to a four year, correct? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Absolutely. Mom and dad would probably agree as 

well. 

Mr. GROTHMAN. Right. If that is so, do you think it would be a 

good idea—one of the problems we have around here is we are very 

in debt, over $19 trillion in debt. You are going to ask this program 

be reauthorized. Do you think it would be a good idea to maybe 

take money away from say the Pell grants going through the traditional four years and find the money to continue your program 

there? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Certainly. I certainly believe there are better 

ways to spend the Pell dollar, and that is certainly a discussion we 

look forward to engaging in around the Higher Education Act discussion at the appropriate time. 

As it relates to the Perkins’ reauthorization, I do think there are 

opportunities here to extend that alignment question, which I think 

ultimately will drive some of the changes that you are describing. 

Mr. GROTHMAN. Another question. You mentioned the wonderful 

things that are going on in Louisiana with your program. One of 

the frustrations I have here is too many of my colleagues think because something that is a good idea is a Federal problem. Okay? 

Obviously, we have a Federal program here. 

You say you are doing a good job in Louisiana, but you also mentioned several changes you want to have towards our program. 

It would seem to me easier to get those changes through the Louisiana legislature than asking Congress to do it. Don’t you feel we 

may be better insofar as we have to put more money in these sorts 

of programs that it came from the State rather than the Federal 

Government? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Certainly there are those programs in the State 

of Louisiana, and I am sure in other States, where we are funding 

current technical education. We have something referred to as the 

‘‘Rapid Response Fund’’ in Louisiana, the ‘‘Wise Fund’’, and a number of others, where we are targeting those resources at programs 

exactly like Perkins. 

Instead of an either/or, I think it is most appropriately a balanced approach, State investment, as well as Federal investment. 

Mr. GROTHMAN. As you mentioned, with the Perkins’ grants come 

certain strings. Okay? So you have to send the money to us from 

Louisiana, then send it back to Louisiana with strings and paperwork involved. Wouldn’t it be preferable insofar as you want more 

money just to get it straight from the State of Louisiana than asking the Federal Government to give you the money? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Perhaps it would. I think the most important part 

is to remain focused on the fact that we need investments in career 

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and technical education programs because the long-term impact, as 

you pointed out, as we were talking about people in poverty, is to 

invest in those folks to give them the opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty. 

Mr. GROTHMAN. Thank you. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman’s time has expired. Mr. Polis, 

you are recognized. 

Mr. POLIS. Thank you. My first question is for Mr. Bates. In my 

district, St Vrain Valley School District is opening a pathways and 

technology early college or PTECH school. PTECH allows students 

to earn their high school diploma and an associate’s degree in a 

STEM field in six years. And PTECH for instance is a partnership 

between the school district, the St Vrain Community College, and 

IBM. 

Can you talk more about the role of employers like IBM or Toyota in Perkins, and how schools like PTECH can be developed to 

give students STEM skills that can be applied at multiple companies meeting workforce needs? 

Mr. BATES. Yes, thank you, Congressman. I think industry can 

be involved first and foremost by educating educators what the 

technology is out there, what technology is necessary for the future 

workforce. So that’s one area that we can provide. We can let educators understand the type of technology and the type of education 

that is important for the future. 

The other way I think industry can be involved in, is helping to 

fund and provide equipment for that technology. Toyota has 

throughout the country donated not only manufacturing equipment 

but we have also donated automobiles to various technical schools 

so that students can have the state-of-the-art equipment to be able 

to work on. 

I also know there have been other local manufacturers in my 

community who have donated welding equipment for the students 

to work on. 

Employers have to be involved in helping to ensure that the technology that is being taught is state-of-the-art and it is current, 

helping develop the curriculum, and also be able to provide funding 

to help purchase equipment and other things for them to be successful in their work. 

Mr. POLIS. Dr. Sullivan, in my district in Colorado, high schools 

and community colleges have built relationships together that give 

students a chance to take advantage of high quality CTE programs. 

Can you talk about the importance of dual and concurrent enrollment programs in this partnership and at the Federal level what 

we can do to encourage these kinds of programs? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Absolutely. Certainly, Colorado has been a leader 

in that effort, and we appreciate the example you have established. 

As I mentioned before, this is that season of commencement, and 

over this past week, we have had numerous examples of students 

who not only earned a high school diploma but also earned a credential in industrial maintenance technology and is looking at a career working right there in the Chalmette area of Louisiana working for any number of different companies. Phillips 66, Dominos 

Sugar, Community Coffee, a whole range of organizations there 

that are looking for those specific skill sets. 

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The career and technical education opportunities, you have to remember many of these students, as much as we may want to believe they are listening to guidance counselors, are listening to 

their colleagues and fellow students more so than they are guidance counselors. 

The word of mouth and the example that these students set for 

one another is really an important component for us to think about 

as we establish policy. 

Mr. POLIS. Can you briefly address how greater economies of 

scale and better services can be offered at a better cost to school 

districts through partnering with community colleges versus trying 

to run all these programs themselves? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. The school accountability movement in this Nation has probably made career and technical education more difficult in this environment. As we begin to think about how we 

scale, community colleges present unique opportunities, I believe, 

because they are the institutions that are aware of and involved in 

local labor market demands, but in addition to that, they are also 

the entities that are the connectedness between the secondary 

arena as well as the universities, and present unique opportunities, 

I think, to do exactly what you are describing in terms of scale. 

Mr. POLIS. Thank you. For any of you, what are some of the more 

innovative CTE programs across the country that you have seen 

that you want to share with our committee? 

Mr. BATES. I think our program that we have across the country 

has been recognized by Jennifer McNelly of the Manufacturing Institute as being the premiere associate’s degree in industrial maintenance across the country. 

I think our program is a great example. The great thing about 

our program is it not just benefits Toyota, but it benefits all manufacturers who want to be a part of it. 

Mr. POLIS. Has anybody seen any effective CTE programs for like 

call centers or customer service, anything like that? No? That 

would be another area that I think would be a good opportunity for 

kids to be able to graduate high school with a marketable degree. 

There is a lot of growth in that sector, including one of the largest 

call center companies based in my district in Colorado. 

I am happy to yield back. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Langevin, you 

are recognized for 5 minutes. It is good to see you here, Jim. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you 

and Ranking Member Scott and Acting Ranking Member Fudge for 

the invitation to join you and the ability to participate in this hearing on an issue that is really near and dear to my heart when we 

talk about reauthorizing Perkins. 

I also want to thank my Republican co-chairman of the CTE 

Caucus, a distinguished member of this committee, Congressman 

GT Thompson. He and I have been great partners in this effort, 

and he has been a steadfast partner again and a strong advocate 

for strengthening our workforce training programs. 

Thank you, witnesses, for very impressive testimony. I have enjoyed sitting in on this hearing. 

If I could start, Mr. Bates, one of the biggest challenges we have 

seen in my home State of Rhode Island is getting companies to 

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offer apprenticeships that also allow students to pursue their studies at a community college. 

What changes did you need to make that allowed you to on board 

these students without a disruption to your production process? 

Mr. BATES. Well, one thing we had to do, Congressman, in our 

program is we had to provide them with the work experience that 

would also allow them to be able to go to school. At our facility, 

we rotate our schedules, which means every two weeks our team 

members are changing their schedules. That would not be feasible 

for our coop students. 

We had to work with them and be able to make sure they were 

able to have the time necessary to go two days a week to their 

schooling and be able to have the training the other three days on 

day shift, and be able to get the applied training they needed. 

We had to work with our existing maintenance workforce to be 

able to make sure they always had a mentor, no matter who was 

on shift with them, they always had a mentor that they could work 

with, to teach them, to make sure that they were being safe, and 

they were able to provide guidance to them. 

It does require some requirements for the manufacturer to 

change how they are able to do the work for those students, but 

if you think about it, this is an investment in their future but it 

is also an investment in our future. 

I need those students in three to five years to be able to come 

into the workforce and to provide a valuable skill to my plant. We 

have to recognize that, so we need to make sure that we are providing that opportunity for them to get the skills and the education 

necessary so that when they graduate, they are able to then come 

into the workplace and provide the skill that I am looking for. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Thank you. Dr. Sullivan, I have a question for 

you about coordination between educators and employers. I know 

we have kind of touched on this a little bit throughout the hearing 

in different ways. At a CTE Caucus field hearing in Rhode Island, 

we were told that colleges need to move at the speed of business 

if they want to authorize successful apprenticeship programs. 

What enables a college to effectively tailor the classes to in demand skills? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Thank you for the question. I think it really begins very simply on the front-end with listening, by simply asking 

industry the question what is it that you are looking for and how 

should we deliver it, and listening when industry responds. 

The traditional academic calendar probably is out the window as 

we just heard Mr. Bates describe a second ago, because we have 

to begin to think about how we deliver instruction on time and in 

the right place and of the right quality and type to ensure that 

those employees or those apprenticeship students as they complete 

are actually the product that industry is looking for. 

Listening would be first and foremost. Secondly, having the willingness to be flexible and to make adjustments to what we think 

of as being traditional in our institutions, and instead remember 

that we are in the business of trying to help our students become 

employed, and because that is our business, we have to be flexible, 

be it with schedule, be it with content, but at the same time, knowing that industry is there because there is an investment that they 

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are making in our institutions. We have to be willing to reciprocate. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. It is a partnership, I agree. Thank you. For Mr. 

Tse, in your testimony, you note that it was a family member who 

suggested you pursue a skill trade. What could the school district 

have done to encourage more students to think about a similar 

path? Did you encounter any barriers preventing you from pursuing a skill trade as a viable option for you and your peers? I 

know we touched on that just a minute ago in a way. Anything else 

you want to expand upon in that respect? 

Mr. TSE. I feel that in general—thankfully, my uncle who happened to be a roofer, kind of persuaded me to go and start looking 

into CTE programs that was available to me. I feel that schools 

could do a better job at kind of advertising—maybe not advertising—promoting that these programs exist instead of me having 

to go outreach to them in finding this program through my guidance counselor. 

I think there should have been something out there, kind of like 

a Career Day almost, for teachers and counselors to come through 

with their students, and show them that hey, by the way, these 

programs are available to you. That could easily spark some interest in younger kids. 

Chairman KLINE. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman KLINE. It looks like all members have had a chance to 

engage in the discussion. Let me yield to Ms. Fudge for any closing 

remarks she might have. 

Ms. FUDGE. Thank you very much, and thank all of you for being 

here today. It has been a great hearing. I think both sides of the 

aisle were pleased with the testimony that we have received, and 

I thank you all. 

Mr. Chairman, I would request that we enter into the record a 

letter from the National Education Association in support of reauthorization, as well as recommendations for our consideration. 

Chairman KLINE. Without objection. 

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Ms. FUDGE. Thank you. Just in closing, I would say that this is 

a very timely hearing. I am certainly hopeful that having heard the 

testimony today as well as the comments and questions from my 

colleagues that we can move forward to get this reauthorization 

done this year. 

I don’t see that there is any impediment to doing it, and I am 

certainly hopeful that we will make it happen this year, and I 

thank you, and I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman KLINE. I thank the gentlelady. I want to thank the 

witnesses, really compelling stories, great witnesses. 

I was talking to Ms. Fudge a little bit here about how many of 

my colleagues and how many of you mentioned ‘‘welding.’’ I flashed 

back to 8th grade shop when I ostensibly learned welding, and I 

am thinking gosh, if I still had that skill, then I could probably 

have a real job. It is amazing. If you can weld, you can work anywhere. 

Mr. Langevin mentioned the Caucus where someone said the 

programs and schools have to work at the speed of business. I 

think that is something that we are going to be very mindful of as 

we go forward here to remove any impediments that might be there 

so that the instruction can move at that speed. 

The need is out there, and you are still teaching, I don’t know, 

something that is no longer of any use. I almost said ‘‘welding.’’ I 

just made the point that is of great use today. 

And so, we are excited about the prospect of reauthorizing this. 

I think this is one of those areas where we should have pretty good 

bipartisan agreement. 

Your testimony today and your involvement in the discussion is 

very helpful. Again, I thank you very much, and there being no further business, the committee stands adjourned. 

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[Whereupon, at 12:17 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

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