S. Hrg. 114–475 

OVERSIGHT OF THE BUREAU OF PRISONS: 

FIRST–HAND ACCOUNTS OF CHALLENGES FACING 

THE FEDERAL PRISON SYSTEM 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

AUGUST 4, 2015 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/ 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 
OVERSIGHT OF THE BUREAU OF PRISONS: 

FIRST–HAND ACCOUNTS OF CHALLENGES FACING THE FEDERAL SYSTEM 
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22–227 PDF 2016

S. Hrg. 114–475 

OVERSIGHT OF THE BUREAU OF PRISONS: 

FIRST–HAND ACCOUNTS OF CHALLENGES FACING 

THE FEDERAL PRISON SYSTEM 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

AUGUST 4, 2015 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/ 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin, Chairman 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire 

JONI ERNST, Iowa 

BEN SASSE, Nebraska 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey 

GARY C. PETERS, Michigan 

KEITH B. ASHDOWN, Staff Director 

PATRICK J. BAILEY, Chief Counsel for Governmental Affairs 

DAVID N. BREWER, Chief Investigative Counsel 

CAROLINE T. INGRAM, Counsel 

REBECCA N. NUZZI, Professional Staff Member 

GABRIELLE A. BATKIN. Minority Staff Director 

JOHN P. KILVINGTON, Minority Deputy Staff Director 

KEVIN BURRIS, Minority Counsel 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Chief Clerk 

LAUREN M. CORCORAN, Hearing Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Johnson ............................................................................................... 1 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 2 

Senator Booker ................................................................................................. 4 

Senator Ayotte .................................................................................................. 25 

Senator Baldwin ............................................................................................... 27 

Senator McCaskill ............................................................................................ 42 

Prepared statements: 

Senator Johnson ............................................................................................... 49 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 50 

WITNESSES 

TUESDAY, AUGUST 4, 2015 

Piper Kerman, Author, Orange is the New Black; My Year in a Women’s 

Prison .................................................................................................................... 7 

Jerome Dillard, Reentry Coordinator, Dane County, Wisconsin ......................... 9 

Udi Ofer, Executive Director, American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey .. 11 

Charles E. Samuels, Jr., Director, Federal Bureau of Prisons, U.S. Department of Justice ..................................................................................................... 31 

Michael E. Horowitz, Inspector General, U.S. Department of Justice ................ 33 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Dillard, Jerome: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 9 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 104 

Horowitz, Michael E.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 33 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 132 

Kerman, Piper: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement with attachments ........................................................... 52 

Ofer, Udi: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 11 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 108 

Samuels, Charles E., Jr.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 31 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 123 

APPENDIX 

Letter submitted by Mr. Horowitz ......................................................................... 142 

Statements submitted for the Record 

Center for Naval Analyses ............................................................................... 144 

Eric Young President Council of Prison Locals .............................................. 406 

Kevin A. Ring, Director of Strategic Families Against Mandatory Minimums ............................................................................................................. 414 

Eric Williams .................................................................................................... 421 

Response to post-hearing questions submitted for the Record 

Ms. Kerman ...................................................................................................... 423 

Mr. Ofer ............................................................................................................. 445 

Mr. Samuels ...................................................................................................... 462 

(1) 

OVERSIGHT OF THE BUREAU OF PRISONS: 

FIRST-HAND ACCOUNTS OF CHALLENGES 

FACING THE FEDERAL PRISON SYSTEM 

TUESDAY, AUGUST 4, 2015 

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Ron Johnson, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Johnson, Lankford, Ayotte, Ernst, Carper, 

McCaskill, Baldwin, Heitkamp, Booker, and Peters. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN JOHNSON 

Chairman JOHNSON. Good morning. This hearing will come to 

order. 

Let me just say, I am really looking forward to this one. I was 

telling the witnesses, I have read all the testimony, and I generally 

do that to the best of my ability. Sometimes, the testimony provided before this Committee can be a little dry, and as I am reading it late at night, it will put me to sleep. Not so in this case whatsoever. I think the testimony was fascinating, partly because I am 

somewhat new to this issue. 

I am going to keep my statement somewhat brief, because I know 

Senator Booker would like to make an opening statement. I am 

happy to have him do so, because he has been obviously involved 

in this issue a whole lot longer than I have. 

I just want to make a couple brief remarks. Being an accountant, 

being a business guy, I am pretty data-driven. The data, the statistics on this particular problem, the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) and 

our high levels of incarceration rates, are pretty stark. 

In 1980, for example, there were 25,000 people in the Federal 

Prison System. Today, there are 209,000. That is a 736 percent increase as our population has only increased 40 percent. In total, 

back in 1980, there were about 500,000 people in prison. Today, 

there are 2.3 million. We in America have the highest level of incarceration in the world, in 2013, 716 people per 100,000 population. The next closest country was Rwanda with 492. If you take 

a look at Canada, it is 118. 

So, I guess my primary comment is, when you look at those stark 

statistics and you see—and, by the way, and I appreciate that Jerome Dillard is here from Madison, Wisconsin. I met with him ear-
2 

lier as part of a group called Nehemiah Project, a group of individuals, some of them ex-offenders spending some time in jail, trying 

to help other people re-enter society. I remember during that meeting, Jerome, how many times did I wince as I was being told the 

stories of how unbelievably difficult we make it for former offenders, people in jail to re-enter society. 

So, the purpose of this hearing is to lay out these realities, understand that what the Bureau of Prisons is dealing with is an incredibly difficult and complex problem, and by the way, I do have 

to mention that the testimony by Charles Samuels, the current Director, I think is also powerful, and he kind of lays out a little bit 

of the problem in terms of the dual mission of the Bureau of Prisons. Let me just quickly read from his testimony. ‘‘The dualfold 

mission is to protect society by confining offenders in prisons and 

community-based facilities that are safe, humane, cost efficient, 

and appropriately secure, and then, second, to ensure that offenders are actually participating in programs that will assist them in 

becoming law-abiding citizens when they return to our communities.’’ 

That is a tough task, and I wish I could say I was looking at the 

statistics and say that, boy, we are really nailing that one. We have 

really got this problem solved. We do not. We are a long ways from 

it. I think the testimony will be that in the Federal system we have 

only a 41 percent recidivism rate, where in State and locals it is 

over 60 percent. I guess when you look at that, we are maybe doing 

something better on the Federal level than we are doing State and 

local, but boy, that is a long way from a successful result, and I 

am sure you will agree with me on that. 

I am not going to steal Ms. Kerman’s thunder off of her testimony, but at the very end, I want everybody to pay very close attention to the quote she is going to provide from Mr. Thomas Mott 

Osborne, because I think it really lays out exactly what is at issue 

here and exactly the question we should be asking as a civilized 

society. 

So, with that, I will turn it over to my Ranking Member, Senator 

Tom Carper. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER 

Senator CARPER. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to thank Senator Booker for encouraging us to hold this 

important hearing. We want to thank all of you for coming as witnesses. 

My day job before I came here to the U.S. Senate was I was privileged to be Governor of Delaware for 8 years and very actively involved in the National Governors Association (NGA). In Delaware, 

we do not have sheriffs’ jails. We do not have county jails or city 

jails. We have a State correctional system. We have one for adults 

and we have one for juveniles. 

In my second term as Governor, a fellow named Barry McCaffrey 

came to Delaware, General Barry McCaffrey, Retired, and he was 

at the time the Nation’s Drug Czar, and he wanted to come and 

visit a program in the city of Wilmington at Gander Hill Prison because we were doing a pretty good job in terms of reducing recidivism by about half, from about 75 percent to maybe 40 percent. He 
3 

wanted to find out, how are we doing it. He brought with him an 

ABC camera crew, as well. 

I will never forget, before he actually went into the prison and 

looked at the program to see how it worked, we met with about 50 

inmates, and we met in a room much smaller than this room. They 

were all in their white garb, and General McCaffrey and myself. 

And, I had been to many of their high schools or their middle 

schools, grade schools, through churches, their ballgames, and had 

some idea who some of them were. They knew who I was. 

And, I said to the guys before we got started on the program part 

of the tour, I said to these 50-some, most of them, I do not know, 

19, 20, 21, 22 years old, I said, how did you guys end up getting 

here? What happened in your lives or did not happen in your lives 

that led you here? About five or six guys spoke up before we took 

our tour and they all told stories that were very similar. 

I was born when my mom was young. I never knew my dad. I 

ended up in kindergarten. Other kids could actually read. They 

knew their letters. They knew their numbers. I could not. I got into 

first grade and I started falling behind. In the second grade and 

the third grade and the fourth grade, just falling further behind. 

Along about the fourth grade, this one guy said, I realized if I just 

act up in class and just be a real nuisance, the teacher would stop 

calling on me. And, so, he would put his head down and just stay 

out of trouble. 

And, they said, eventually, they will be put out in the hall, probably about the fifth or sixth grade. And probably when I was in the 

seventh or eighth grade, I was suspended from school. And for a 

while, he said, I liked that, because I was no longer embarrassed 

by how little I knew. 

And, he said, when I was in the ninth grade, I got expelled and 

I found myself on the outside in a world, he said, everybody wants 

to be popular. Guys like me want to be popular, he said. If you are 

a good athlete, you can be popular in school. If you are smart, you 

can be popular in school. If you are good with girls, you can be popular in school. He said, I was none of those. 

And, he said, I was on the outside and I wanted to feel good 

about myself, and the only way I could feel good about myself was 

to take drugs or to consume alcohol, and when I did that, I felt 

good about myself. He said, I did not have any ability to pay for 

those things. I ended up in a life of crime and I ended up in this 

prison. 

Every one of them told the same story.. And the fellow who was 

the Commissioner of Corrections for me at the time was a fellow 

named Stan Taylor, a wonderful guy. He used to say to me, ‘‘95 to 

98 percent of the people that are incarcerated in our State are 

going to end up being released and come back into our society. And 

we can send them back out into society as better people, better parents, or better criminals. And,’’ he said, ‘‘it is our choice. It is our 

choice.’’ And, to an extent, it is a choice of the inmate themselves. 

So, we are big on root causes in this Committee. I am big on root 

causes in this Committee. And, if we take young men, young 

women, not-so-young men and not-so-young women, and actually 

do something about their addictions while they are incarcerated, 

that is helpful. If we do something about the lack of an education, 
4 

1The prepared statement of Senator Johnson appears in the Appendix on page 49. 

that is helpful. If we do something about their lack of work skills 

or actually the ability to have to get up in the morning and know 

they have a job to go to, that is helpful. All the above. 

States are laboratories of democracy. We can learn a lot from 

them. And we can learn from one another. Today, we are going to 

learn from you and we look forward to this very much. 

Again, Cory, I just want to thank you for suggesting that we be 

here. Let us have a good hearing. Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Carper. 

Again, I will ask for unanimous consent to enter my written 

opening statement in the record,1 and with that, Senator Booker. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BOOKER 

Senator BOOKER. I just want to start by expressing my gratitude 

to the Ranking Member and to the Chairman for having this hearing. It has been probably the best experience I have had in the U.S. 

Senate since I began about 18, 19 months ago, to find such bipartisan willingness to deal with issues of justice in our country. It is 

extraordinary from my hour meeting with Chairman Grassley yesterday to being able to sit with you today, Chairman, to see this 

bipartisan willingness to confront the wrongs in our country that 

surround criminal justice and a determination to do something 

about it. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Let me just interject before you go on, and 

we talked about this earlier. I was going to do a field hearing in 

Milwaukee on high levels of incarceration. We did not do it on that 

subject because this is so complex and it was difficult to design the 

hearing so it would not be inflammatory. 

Senator BOOKER. Yes. 

Chairman JOHNSON. So, again, I appreciate your working with 

me so we hold this first one here. But, again, this will be the 

first—— 

Senator BOOKER. Yes. 

Chairman JOHNSON [continuing]. In a series. What we ended up 

doing instead is we held a hearing on school choice, which starts 

really at the beginning part of this time spectrum in terms of not 

providing a proper education, and it ends up leading to this end result in terms of prison. 

But, again, I appreciate your willingness to work with me on 

this, and I am hoping at some point in time we can move this discussion into different areas that this is pretty relevant. One of 

them certainly would be in Milwaukee. Thank you. 

Senator BOOKER. I am grateful to you. We have had countless, 

now, conversations about criminal justice reform, and your eagerness, willingness, sincere desire to do something about it has been, 

I think, really encouraging to me in my early months in the Senate, so I am thankful for that and for this opportunity to be here 

today. 

It is a movement now in our country to do something about it. 

When you have a President of the United States willing to visit a 

prison, being the first person to do so, we see that that is a part 

of our culture as a Christian. It says in the Bible, Matthew 25, 
5 

‘‘When I was hungry, you gave me something to eat. When I was 

thirsty, you gave me something to drink. When I was in prison, you 

came to visit me.’’ This understanding that our criminal justice system is not about fear and retribution but should be guided by principles of justice, fairness, and ultimately redemption, to me, that is 

the American way. 

But, unfortunately, we have gone in a way that so far cuts 

against our common values and our ideals. This age of mass incarceration on a whole is violating our core principles in so many 

areas. To have us, as we claim to be the land of freedom and liberty, but to have one out of every four imprisoned people on the 

planet Earth here in the United States of America, even though we 

only have 4 to 5 percent of our population, runs contrary to our 

core ideals. 

To do this at such a massive expense to the taxpayer, unnecessarily egregious expenditures, where we spend about a quarter-ofa-trillion dollars a year incarcerating human beings, many of whom 

do not need to be incarcerated at the lengths in which they are, 

runs against our values. 

When we see our infrastructure crumbling in this country, yet we 

have the resources between 1990 and 2005 to build a new prison 

in the United States every 10 days, that runs against our fiscal 

prudence and our values as a Nation. 

When we see poor people being ground up into a system but for 

the fact that they do not have the resources for their liberation, 

that we have modern day debtors’ prisons in our country, that runs 

contrary to our common values. 

We now are at a point in our country where we have literally almost one out of three Americans, between 75 and 100 million 

Americans, have an arrest record. If we were to go back to the Revolutionary times and tell them that there was going to be a government in this land that would be seizing the liberty of almost one 

out of three people, we would definitely have sparked that Revolutionary spirit. And, now is a time that we need a revolution when 

it comes to issues of crime and punishment. 

Now, the Chairman was very clear, and I think it is important 

to restate, that this is a narrow hearing about one specific aspect 

to begin a process of looking for reforms. But please know, if you 

look at just our Bureau of Prisons, our Federal prison population 

has expanded 800 percent since 1980. The Bureau of Prisons now 

has almost 200,000 inmates and it is 35 to 40 percent over-capacity. It employs nearly 40,000 people, and last year, in fiscal year 

(FY) 2014, the Bureau of Prisons’ enacted budget totaled an astonishing $6.9 billion. Just working on transportation and commuter 

rail, seeing the fraction of that we are debating over when we are 

spending this much. 

This Bureau of Prisons now is 25 percent of the Department of 

Justice (DOJ) discretionary budget. In my very first meeting with 

then-Attorney General (AG) Holder, he actually talked to me about 

the urgent crisis he faces if the Bureau of Prisons is squeezing out 

his entire budget, taking money away from things that we should 

be investing in for homeland security for our protection overall as 

a citizenry because of this massive explosion. 
6 

The Bureau of Prisons is so large that it is absolutely critical 

that we in Congress, this Committee, exercise our oversight to ensure that taxpayer dollars are being spent wisely, and especially in 

light of what many States are showing, that you can reduce your 

prison populations dramatically, saving taxpayer dollars and lowering crime at the same time. 

So, make no mistake. As a mayor, I learned that you have to 

make sure that when a crime is committed that there is a punishment and people get a proportional punishment. But, I am troubled 

by some of the practices that are obviously failing to live up to our 

common values and just do not make in any way economic sense, 

as well. 

And, so, I am grateful for this hearing. There are some areas 

which I think we really need to drill down that are in those small 

areas that we can make improvements now that can, Mr. Chairman, make a big difference. 

One of them is solitary confinement, known in the Bureau of 

Prisons as segregated housing units. It is a practice that many people, medical professionals, human rights activists, civil rights activists, indeed, other countries, consider torture because of its impact. 

Prolonged use of solitary confinement on an inmate often results in 

severe psychological harm. 

Justice Kennedy in a recent Supreme Court decision questioned 

the constitutionality of this punishment, saying ‘‘the penal system 

has a solitary confinement regime that will bring you to the edge 

of madness, perhaps madness itself.’’ The medical community confirms that reality. It is time that the Federal Government acts as 

a model to ending this practice of solitary confinement. 

Also, Congress gave the courts the authority to release prisoners 

early for extraordinary compelling reasons, known as compassionate release. The Bureau of Prisons has the ability to release 

prisoners now that are facing imminent death or serious incapacitation. The data is clear on this population. They are not a threat 

to our safety and our community, and they are costing taxpayers 

extraordinary amounts of money. This is a Compassionate Release 

Program that is properly named and should be explored. 

Then-Attorney General Holder issued guidelines to allow the Bureau of Prisons to expand the pool of applicants who may be considered for compassionate release. This is something we should look 

at. 

Finally, I hope that we can explore what programming the Bureau of Prisons provides to those that are the least of these in our 

society, those that are often marginalized, and I am specifically 

talking about those who are suffering from mental health challenges and drug addictions. Right now, States across America are 

struggling to control, for example, a growing heroin epidemic, and 

many of these people are finding themselves addicted in a Federal 

system that does not adequately treat them. The Bureau of Prisons 

must find a way to assist inmates who are struggling with addiction and with mental health. 

Again, I want to thank you, Chairman. This is a hearing that I 

have been very excited about. I want to thank our witnesses. I especially want to thank Charles Samuels, who has met with me personally. We have had great conversations. His tenure is actually 
7 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Kerman appears in the Appendix on page 52. 

coming to an end, but he is a dedicated public servant representing 

the administration, and I know they are committed to reforms and 

have a record of making some progress on these issues that I have 

outlined. 

Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Booker. 

And, again, we all want to thank the witnesses and welcome 

them. It is the tradition of this Committee to swear in witnesses, 

so if you will all rise and raise your right hand. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Committee 

will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 

help you, God? 

Ms. KERMAN. I do. 

Mr. DILLARD. I do. 

Mr. OFER. I do. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. Please be seated. 

Our first witness is Piper Kerman. She is the author of Orange 

is the New Black, a memoir about her experiences in Federal prison. She is also a Board Member of the Women’s Prison Association, 

which works to promote alternatives to incarceration to women. 

Ms. Kerman. 

TESTIMONY OF PIPER KERMAN,1 AUTHOR, ORANGE IS THE 

NEW BLACK: MY YEAR IN A WOMEN’S PRISON 

Ms. KERMAN. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members of 

the Committee, I appreciate you inviting me here today. In my 

memoir, Orange is the New Black, I recount in detail the 13 

months that I spent incarcerated in the Federal Prison System, 

with most of my time served at the Federal Correctional Institution 

(FCI) in Danbury, Connecticut. 

I have worked with many women and men who are returned citizens, like me, and we all want to get back on our feet, to reclaim 

our rights of citizenship, and to make positive contributions to our 

communities. Our experiences are essential to understanding the 

reform that is needed in our criminal justice system so that it will 

provide for public safety in a way that is legal and humane and 

sensible, and that is why I am here today. 

Women are the fastest growing population in the American 

criminal justice system, and their families and communities are increasingly affected by what happens to women behind bars. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 63 percent of women in prison are there for a non-violent offense. Many are incarcerated due 

to substance abuse and mental health issues, which are overwhelmingly prevalent in prisons and jails. And, the rate of sexual 

abuse and other physical violence that women experience prior to 

incarceration is staggering. 

Female prisoners suffer these problems at greater rates than 

male prisoners and these experiences are relevant both to their 

crimes and to their incarceration. But, these issues are not being 

adequately addressed by the Bureau of Prisons. 

The research on criminal justice involved women and girls shows 

that the risk factors I mentioned require different approaches in 
8 

order to reduce women’s recidivism and result in successful reentry. This is not unlike findings in other fields, such as health 

care, where research shows that women experience heart attack 

symptoms quite differently from men and their treatment needs 

differ, and this understanding has saved women’s lives. 

The Bureau of Prisons should adopt gender-responsive correctional approaches that interrupt cycles of unnecessary suffering. 

States like Washington provide a road map to do this successfully. 

When I was locked up in Danbury, I knew women who were trying to raise their children during brief reunions in the visitors’ 

room, while fending off sexual harassment and struggling with addiction and trying to get a high school education so that when they 

got out, they stood some chance of surviving, despite their felony 

conviction. 

I saw women in Bureau of Prisons prisons denied necessary medical care and women with mental health issues wait for months to 

see the one psychiatrist who was available for 1,400 women. And, 

that is unimaginable in a system where at least 65 percent of 

women experience some kind of mental illness. 

Equally shocking were the mandatory reentry classes inmates 

took to prepare to leave prison. I attended one on housing, which 

was led by a man who worked in construction in the prison, and 

the mostly poor and overwhelmingly minority women who were attending that class desperately wanted to know how someone with 

a felony conviction and few resources could find safe, affordable 

housing to live in after release. And instead, we heard about fiberglass insulation and roof maintenance and some other home improvement tips. 

The reentry health classes that we took were taught by a culinary department officer who had no expertise or information on 

reproductive health, mental health, or substance abuse options 

post-release. He had, however, played professional baseball for a 

brief time, and, hence, his authority on the health topic. 

Many of Danbury’s policies were questionable, but it was relatively close to home for most of the women who were serving time 

there. Families could visit. Children could see their mothers, many 

of whom were raising their kids on their own before being sent to 

prison. 

Yet, the BOP disregarded this when it chose to convert Danbury 

FCI to a men’s facility in 2013. This sent women beyond the BOP’s 

stated goal of no more than 500 miles from home, and it has also 

deprived many of them of programming that male prisoners enjoy, 

such as UNICOR employment, which is very important, or the residential drug and alcohol treatment program, which not only is one 

of the most effective programs the BOP has, but also is one of the 

only ways to earn a sentence reduction in the Bureau. 

It is worth noting that the desire to empty that prison of women 

caused the Bureau of Prisons to examine prisoners’ sentences and 

exercise its discretion granted by the Second Chance Act, signed 

into law in 2008 by President Bush. Hundreds of women were reassigned to complete their sentences in halfway houses or even in 

home confinement. And while briefly exercised in the case of Danbury FCI, the BOP has not used its authority under the Act to 
9 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Dillard appears in the Appendix on page 104. 

safely reduce the Federal prison population and return as many 

prisoners as possible to their communities. 

The BOP should place all eligible prisoners in halfway houses or 

home confinement at the earliest possible dates and should use 

compassionate release and sentence reduction programs, and this 

would help relieve the persistent overcrowding and keep staff and 

prisoners safer while reducing costs. 

Finally, the BOP must be led by individuals who value the role 

of communities and families in rehabilitation and understand the 

particular needs of women. We appreciate the service of Director 

Samuels, and he leaves at the end of this year. He should be replaced by a leader who is committed to enacting these values into 

policy. I urge the administration to look outside of the existing Bureau leadership for strong candidates who will make the BOP a 

model system driven by innovation and creativity. 

I close with the words of the legendary reformer and warden of 

Sing-Sing Prison, Thomas Mott Osborne, who famously asked, 

‘‘Shall our prisons be scrap heaps or human repair shops?’’ Today, 

with the biggest prison population in human history here in the 

United States, we must insist on a different answer to this question. 

Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Ms. Kerman. 

Our next witness is Jerome Dillard. Mr. Dillard is the Jail Reentry Coordinator for Dane County, Wisconsin. He also served as 

the Director of Voices Beyond Bars, a group aimed at helping 

former inmates transition in the community by offering employment and computer classes. And, Mr. Dillard, again, I just want to 

thank you for traveling here from Wisconsin for your testimony. 

Please. 

TESTIMONY OF JEROME DILLARD,1 REENTRY COORDINATOR, 

DANE COUNTY, WISCONSIN 

Mr. DILLARD. Thank you, Senator Johnson. In opening, I want to 

thank this Committee for having me. I want to thank you, Senator 

Johnson, and my other Senator from Wisconsin, Tammy Baldwin, 

for having me sit before you today. 

I sit here as a formerly incarcerated citizen who served time in 

both Federal and State prison systems. My crimes were non-violent, driven by a long history of drug addiction. 

While doing time in prison, I witnessed a system that was ballooning with predominately young African Americans who were 

serving long prison sentences—10, 20, 30 years—for drug crimes. 

This was troubling to me, seeing so many young men losing the 

prime of their lives to the criminal justice system. It was while 

doing time, I made a strong determination that I will do all I can 

to stay out of our prison system. 

I have been out roughly 19 years now and I have had the opportunity to share my own journey of recovery at correctional centers, 

educational institutions, conferences, and in the community, giving 

my personal account on how peer support directly aided in the suc-
10 

cess of my recovery with regards to substance abuse and mental 

health. 

We often do not think of the formerly incarcerated citizens as assets in the work being done to address the issues of incarceration. 

The power of peer-led groups and organizations provides so many 

essentials needed for the successful reentry of individuals returning 

to our communities. An in-house prison support network of this 

type would be helpful for the process of rehabilitation. Some of the 

barriers to creating this sense of community are opposition from 

the Bureau of Prisons and the State prisons staff with fostering 

that ‘‘us’’ and ‘‘them’’ mentality. Real cultural competency training 

would be a value in all prison systems. 

I want to say, in the work that I do, I realize that the barriers 

are tremendous. Individuals returning to the community from 

State and Federal prisons are often faced with huge amounts of 

debt—child support, restitution, supervision fees, and on and 

on—real barriers to individuals who are oftentimes subjected to the 

lower-paying jobs that are available in our communities. 

I was given an opportunity to work in a mental health Alcohol 

and Other Drug Abuse (AODA) prison in our State. This is a 

unique facility that is invaluable because they provided mental 

health and trauma-informed care on an individualized basis. What 

I witnessed there in the programming that went on there, I cannot 

say enough about, because traumas are so prominent with this population. 

As I talked to these men, many—and often I asked, how many 

men had their fathers in their lives, and the majority of the times, 

these individuals would say, my father was in prison, or I do not 

know my father, and I was raised by the streets. These are some 

of the traumas. Even fatherlessness is a trauma that usually goes 

unaddressed. And for those in our inner cities, they are 

humongous. They are huge. 

In the time that I have, I really cannot elaborate on many of the 

things that I would like to say, but I am going to say this in closing. In working with our incarcerated and formerly incarcerated 

citizens over a decade now, I am beginning to see a shift in confronting mass incarceration. It is an issue that both political parties agree on, that America’s addiction to mass incarceration is not 

working. It is costly. It does not restore people. And, I personally 

feel that the climate is right and the ground is fertile for real criminal justice reform. 

The modern War on Drugs produced an overall prison population 

that remains unprecedented in world history. At the Federal level, 

the growth in the incarceration rate has been even greater and 

more sustained than in the States. 

I am encouraged by some of the initiatives that are taking place 

on the local level in many States and counties. In my county, we 

are working to address the racial disparities and reduce the number of those incarcerated at all levels of the criminal justice system. 

And, great works are being done addressing these problems, and I 

feel that addressing these problems will require far more than tinkering with the sentencing policies of non-violent offenders or revamping prison programs. 
11 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Ofer appears in the Appendix on page 108. 

To achieve a reasonable level of incarceration, we will need to 

substantially reduce both the numbers of people admitted to prison 

and the length of their sentences. In making a suggestion, I would 

like to say to the BOP to continue to solicit feedback from people 

who are serving time so they can craft programming that is to the 

prison population. The BOP programming needs to match the labor 

market data about high-growth industries. It also needs to be specific to the regions. 

And, last of all, the BOP needs to advocate to Congress for laws 

that allow more merit time, early release, and incentives for good 

behavior or programming. 

Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Mr. Dillard. 

Our next witness is Udi Ofer. Mr. Ofer is the Executive Director 

of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) in New Jersey. 

Through his work at the ACLU, he has worked on the State level 

to form a blueprint on how to reduce the prison population in New 

Jersey. He worked closely with Governor Chris Christie to pass bail 

reform legislation which takes effect in 2017 and is estimated to reduce the prison population in New Jersey by about 8,500 inmates. 

Mr. Ofer. 

TESTIMONY OF UDI OFER,1 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN 

CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF NEW JERSEY 

Mr. OFER. Thank you, Chairman Johnson, Ranking Member Carper, and Members of the Committee. My name is Udi Ofer and I 

am the Executive Director of the American Civil Liberties Union of 

New Jersey, and it is my honor and privilege to be here today on 

behalf of the ACLU and our more than one million supporters living across the United States, including in New Jersey. 

Today’s hearing comes at a critical moment in our Nation’s history, when there is a rare opportunity to take bold action on criminal justice reform. Republicans and Democrats alike are taking a 

second look at our Nation’s criminal justice system, and Republicans and Democrats alike are becoming much more pragmatic 

and much less ideological in their approach to criminal justice. 

Following decades of punitive policies that have sent millions to 

prison and devastated communities, particularly low-income communities of color, Americans are now realizing that our Nation’s 

prisons and jails have grown too big, and that all too often, the people who end up imprisoned really suffer from drug addiction or 

mental illness and should not be incarcerated in the first place. 

We all know the story of the growth of our Nation’s incarcerated 

population. Our Nation’s jails and prisons hold almost 2.3 million 

people on any given day. The Federal prison population has increased from 25,000 prisoners in 1980 to more than 207,000 today, 

and all of this comes at an annual cost to taxpayers of tens of billions of dollars. 

But, the costs have far more severe consequences than simply 

the fiscal expenses necessary to incarcerate 25 percent of the 

world’s prisoners in a country with 5 percent of the world’s population. The true costs are human lives, and particularly generations 
12 

of young black and Latino men who serve long prison sentences 

and are lost to their families and to their communities. And, the 

fact is that African Americans and Latinos are disproportionately 

engulfed in our broken criminal justice system. 

So, it is clearly time for a change. We are at a crossroads, as 

Americans recognize the need to reform both our Federal and State 

criminal justice systems. So, with this in mind, I come before you 

today to urge you to seize this opportunity to reform prison practices, reduce the incarcerated population, and create a system that 

is smarter, a system that is fairer, and a system that is more cost 

effective. 

And at the top of any reforms of Federal prison practices must 

be the issue of solitary confinement. Approximately 5 percent of 

Federal prisoners are in solitary confinement. That means that on 

any given date, 11,000 people in Federal prisons—11,000 

people—are confined to a six-by-nine cell and deprived of basic 

human contact, with little to no natural light and minimal, if any, 

constructive activity for 22 to 24 hours a day. In some Federal facilities, the average time that a prisoner sits in continuous solitary 

confinement is 4 years. 

You need to look no further than the front page of today’s 

Science section of the New York Times—and it is the Science section, not the Politics section—to get a better understanding of the 

mental and physical consequences of long-term solitary confinement. 

And, according to a recent independent review of the Federal 

Prison System solitary practices, there are major problems. Federal 

prisons send thousands of seriously mentally ill individuals into 

solitary confinement, people who should be receiving treatment, not 

sitting in ‘‘the hole,’’ and Federal prisons use solitary on close to 

1,400 people who are there for protective custody but instead are 

subjected to virtually the same conditions as prisoners who are in 

solitary for punishment. 

So, what can we do about this? Well, there are many small yet 

important steps that the Bureau can take today and that are outlined in the independent review. Yet, the truth is, if all that we 

take today are small steps, then we will have lost this historic moment for bold change. Now is the time for historic change. Solitary 

confinement has no place in American prisons. Physical separation 

may sometimes be necessary for safety and for security, but isolation is not. 

Therefore, we call on the Bureau of Prisons and we call on the 

Congress to resolve this issue once and for all. First, it is time to 

abolish the use of solitary confinement for persons under the age 

of 18 and for persons with mental illness. Senators Cory Booker 

and Rand Paul have already introduced legislation, the REDEEM 

Act, which would prohibit the use of solitary confinement on juveniles and we fully support this legislation. 

Second, for all other prisoners, the Bureau should abolish periods 

of solitary confinement lasting longer than 15 days, period. We believe that implementing these recommendations will lead to a 

smarter and more humane system and will lead to a decrease in 

the Federal prison population by reducing recidivism rates. 
13 

Finally, a couple of quick words about New Jersey. Given the 

focus of this hearing on BOP practices, the lessons from New Jersey are not directly applicable, but there are some important lessons worth mentioning. New Jersey is not a perfect model. We have 

terrible solitary confinement practices, but there are some things 

that we have done well. 

In 1999, New Jersey’s incarcerated population peaked at more 

than 30,000. Today, it is at about 21,000, a 30 percent reduction 

in a decade-and-a-half. How did we achieve it? We achieved it 

through numerous policies, with the biggest ones being changing 

our harsh mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses and a 

decrease in the number of parolees returned to prison for technical 

violations. And as mentioned by Senator Johnson, we have recently 

had a major victory in a bipartisan manner, working with Governor 

Christie, to overhaul our State’s bail system, which we believe will 

lead to thousands of fewer people sitting in jail simply because they 

are poor. 

So, look, nationwide, the bipartisan commitment to criminal justice reform is as strong as it will ever be, so the ACLU urges the 

Congress to take bold action to adopt our recommendations, which 

would help to increase fairness and justice at every stage in the 

system. 

Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Mr. Ofer. 

I do want to stress, you have mentioned the word ‘‘bipartisan’’ a 

number of times, and this is true. Some of the folks in this Committee have been describing problems and look for the areas of 

agreement, and this is something I think that we have broad agreement on. This system is not working, as Mr. Dillard pointed out. 

It is just not working. We have to take a look at the facts and 

admit that harsh and stark reality. 

Ms. Kerman, you obviously have a pretty unique story here. You 

did not spend much time in your testimony—maybe people more 

tied into pop culture fully understand—but if you could just quickly 

describe what you were put in prison for, and at the tail end, I 

would also like you to tell me, what do you think your punishment 

should have been? 

Ms. KERMAN. Thank you for your question, Senator Johnson. 

When I was in my early 20s, which is a very typical risk time for 

folks to be involved with crime or to commit a crime, I was involved 

with a relationship with someone involved with narcotics and I carried a bag of money from Chicago to Brussels in support of a drug 

trafficking enterprise. 

I voluntarily left that situation. Good sense kicked in. I was very 

fortunate. I had a college degree already. I had many benefits and 

privileges, and so I was able to return to the United States and to 

get my life back on track and to put any involvement in crime behind me. 

Many years passed before I was indicted in the Federal system, 

and ultimately, I was sent to prison 10 years after I committed my 

offense. I pled guilty to my crime very swiftly. I was very fortunate 

to only serve 13 months of a 15-month sentence. 

One of the things that was so striking to me the very first day 

that I spent in prison was that so many of the women that I was 
14 

incarcerated with, who I would spend a great deal of time with, 

were serving much harsher sentences than I was. And as the days 

and the weeks and the months went on and I came to know those 

other women really well, it was impossible for me to believe that 

their crimes were so much more serious than mine. In fact, the 

only conclusion I could draw was that they had been treated much 

more harshly by the American criminal justice system than I had 

been treated because of socio-economic reasons, differences in class 

and, in some cases, because of the color of their skin. 

I left the custody of the Bureau of Prisons in 2005. I had 2 years 

of supervised release, probation, which I completed successfully. 

When I reflect on the punishment for my crime, I certainly cannot protest it when I think about the harshness with which poor 

people and disproportionately poor people of color are treated in 

this country. 

It is hard, however, to believe that there was a lot of social benefit to the community drawn from my incarceration. It prevented 

no new crimes. I think, particularly when we consider the punishments that we have meted out for drug offenses, we have to reflect 

on the enactment of these mandatory minimum drug sentencing 

laws, generally in the mid-1980s. At that time, I think that those 

laws were intended to curb substance abuse and addiction and 

some of the crimes that grow out of substance abuse and addiction. 

Today, many decades after we passed those laws, we have put 

millions and millions of Americans in prison and saddled them 

with felony convictions, and today, illegal narcotics are cheaper, 

they are more potent, and they are more easily available than 

when we put mandatory minimum sentencing laws on the books 

and incarcerated all those people. I think we can only draw the 

conclusion that in terms of curbing substance abuse and addiction, 

that those laws are a failure and that locking people up for drug 

offenses, particularly low-level non-violent drug offenses, is a huge 

waste of time and money. 

Chairman JOHNSON. So, let me go back to what I wanted you to 

answer, the final question, though. I agree, it is not working. 

Ms. KERMAN. Yes. 

Chairman JOHNSON. I think there are two reasons for prison, 

punishment and deterrence. 

Ms. KERMAN. Yes. 

Chairman JOHNSON. So, what type of punishment is appropriate 

and that would deter people from, for example, trafficking drugs to 

young people, which is pretty damaging for society? I mean, what 

do you think would be the alternative? Have you given that any 

thought? 

Ms. KERMAN. I think that a very appropriate part of my punishment, if it was not confinement in a prison, would have been a 

lengthy term of community service working with people who are 

addicted to drugs and with families that are suffering from the ravages of addiction. What I experienced while I was incarcerated was 

very intense close friendships with women whose lives had been 

devastated by substance abuse and addiction, and that really 

brought home to me the harm of my own actions, and I think that 

that is one of the most appropriate ways to deal with those kinds 

of harms. 
15 

Chairman JOHNSON. Good answer. 

And, very briefly, because I want to get to Mr. Dillard, as well, 

the other women that were in prison, I know you do not have the 

statistics on it, but in general, were they there for also just basically drug crime? 

Ms. KERMAN. Oh, in particular—— 

Chairman JOHNSON. The vast majority? 

Ms. KERMAN. In both State and Federal systems, but overwhelmingly in the Federal system, women are incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses and for property crimes. But in the Federal system, I mean, I think if any member of this Committee had the opportunity to meet the hundreds of women that I did time with, you 

would probably walk away from getting to know those women with 

a deep feeling that their confinement in a prison cell or a prison 

facility was just a colossal waste and not an appropriate way of intervening in the things that put them into the criminal justice system. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. 

Mr. Dillard, obviously, we met in discussions about the difficulty 

of reentering society after you have served your time. Talk about 

the challenges. I mean, you were talking about the huge debt levels. You are sitting in prison and your child support just continues 

to build, and then you get out, it is very difficult to find a job, and 

one of the things I am working with Senator Booker on is a ‘‘ban 

the box’’ for Federal employees to serve as an example, so hopefully 

something like that would work to give people the opportunity to 

get a job. 

But, even if you get a job, a lot of these are entry level. They do 

not pay a whole lot. And, yet, we expect people who just get out 

of prison to all of a sudden start paying off those debts. Describe 

what happens when they are unable to. 

Mr. DILLARD. Well, the fact is, when you are faced with these 

barriers—and I, too, came home faced with many barriers—the fact 

is, I had support, I had individuals who kept me encouraged, and 

I had someone to give me analogy, and that was putting a little bit 

behind you at a time. 

I was fortunate to be able to obtain a living wage employment 

about a year-and-a-half after being out. That was helpful, because 

after 13 years, I finally got a tax return. And that analogy of putting that debt behind you a little bit at a time is something that 

I teach to young men today. 

The fact is, many of our young people have ties to the criminal 

justice system and there is so much hopelessness that comes with 

being tied to the criminal justice system that, often, they feel that 

there is no place for them in the workforce. Application after application, turn down after turn down, because, in many instances, of 

your criminal convictions. Individuals lapse into hopelessness, and 

from there, addiction can raise its ugly head, or hustling, or just 

becoming part of the norm in many of the communities that have 

had to result to these things. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Again, in our meetings, one of the individuals we were talking with spoke that not paying child support ends 

up being a parole violation—— 

Mr. DILLARD. Yes. 
16 

Chairman JOHNSON [continuing]. Which lands you right back in jail, correct, which costs us $33,000 for a male prisoner, and, I 

think, Ms. Kerman, is it not about $50,000 for a female prisoner? 

Ms. KERMAN. Yes. 

Mr. DILLARD. Yes. 

Chairman JOHNSON. So, again, it is these enormous challenges 

just trying to reintegrate into society, get a job, and then when you 

are unable to pay off your child support, which, again, we all want 

people to be responsible and pay for their children, but then you 

land right back in jail. Is that what I heard. Is that basically true? 

Mr. DILLARD. Well, in some cases. But, the fact is, child support 

continues to accumulate even while you are doing time. I had a 

gentleman who was released from prison after 15 years, $60,000, 

$70,000 in debt with child support, along with all the other things 

that came. The only employment that he can find was working in 

a fast food restaurant at a minimum wage. And after taking home 

his second paycheck, he was, like, I cannot make it like this. I just 

cannot. Over 40 percent of his check was being taken before he 

even got it, and that is a discouragement, really, for him to continue working at a minimum wage position and not be able to pay 

rent or have transportation. 

Chairman JOHNSON. OK. Thank you, Mr. Dillard. I am out of 

time. Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. The Chairman said a few minutes ago there are 

two reasons for prisons, punishment and deterrence. I would say 

there is at least one more, and that is to try to correct behavior 

so that when people come out, they will be less likely to recidivate 

and simply to commit crimes again and return to our prison. 

I mentioned earlier how Stan Taylor was Commissioner of Corrections when I was Governor for my second term, and his words 

that still ring true today, the overwhelming majority of people who 

are incarcerated are going to come out some day. They are not 

there forever. They will come back into our society and to our communities, and they can come out as better people or they can come 

out as better criminals. 

Senator Booker, alluded to a moral imperative that we face, 

whether people of faith or not. He alluded to Matthew 25, when I 

was hungry, when I was thirsty, when I was naked, when I was 

sick and in prison, did you come to see me? I have been in every 

prison in Delaware. We transformed Ferris School, which really 

was a juvenile prison, into a real school. And, I have given this 

matter huge amounts of time and thought over the time that I was 

there and even now. 

In the National Governors Association, we used to say—I would 

say to my cabinet when we would have cabinet meetings dealing 

with a particular issue, I would say, somebody, some Governor in 

some State has dealt with this issue. Figure out how to deal with 

it and do so successfully. We have got find that State, that Governor, and whoever worked on this particular challenge in that 

State. 

A lot of what we are talking about here, somebody has done 

something really good that could serve as a model. States are laboratories for democracy, and before we go off for the Bureau of 

Prisons just starting from scratch, we need to look around our 
17 

country and say, well, where are some States that are doing some 

things really well? 

In our State, we changed a juvenile prison into a real school. In 

our State, we decided when we had people in prison, we were going 

to have them for a while. Why not work with them on their educational skills, actually create a school within the prisons to work 

with them on their drug addictions, to give them an opportunity, 

whatever faith they might be, but to actually exercise their faith, 

learn about their faith, to prepare for transformation, to learn 

skills, whether it is upgrading computers, whether it is building 

furniture, whether it is learning auto repair, and literally taking 

the whole fleet for the State of Delaware, the car fleet, and basically provide maintenance in our prison system so that people at 

least have that kind of skill when they walked out. 

What I would like to do is to ask each of you to give us one terrific example—it could be in a State or a local correctional system—one terrific example within the system, within the prison 

itself, or, frankly, without, because if we do not do a lot better on 

the early side, the early childhood side and so forth, we are not 

really going after the root cause. But, just give us one good example. It could be in the correctional system, it could be before, it 

could be after release, that you think we ought to really drill down 

and try our best to emulate. Thank you. Ms. Kerman. 

Ms. KERMAN. Thank you, Senator Carper. I currently teach nonfiction writing in two State prisons in Ohio, and one of those prisons is a men’s medium-security prison. It was built for 1,400 men. 

It currently houses 2,600 men. It is led by a young warden who 

was trained as a social worker at Ohio State University (OSU). He 

does things differently than any prison I have ever set foot inside. 

The prison has more lifers than any other prison in the State of 

Ohio. It is one of two prisons with the lowest violence rate in that 

prison. So, that is a big change over time in that facility. That warden and his predecessors have done a great job at making that a 

much safer prison, and that warden has—and his staff have a tremendous amount of rehabilitative programming of every sort, 

whether it is vocational, educational, spiritual. 

One of the first programs that was ever put in place there back 

in the 1990s was an interfaith dorm where prisoners of different 

faiths would come and live in that dorm for one year, do a special 

curriculum, learn how to deal with each other and their differences, 

and then go back out into general population as change agents. 

That prison is a really interesting place and that warden’s philosophy and the philosophy of all of his staff—because one man 

cannot do it all, all of his staff need to be on board for him to do 

that—is really inspirational, I think. 

I want to make a note on some of the results that that prison 

gets, back to Udi’s testimony about solitary confinement. 

Senator CARPER. Ms. Kerman—— 

Ms. KERMAN. Yes? 

Senator CARPER. I would like to listen to you for the rest of the 

morning, but I only have two more minutes, so I am going to ask 

you to just hold it right there if you will—— 

Ms. KERMAN. OK. 
18 

Senator CARPER [continuing]. And we will, hopefully, have a second round and we will come back and finish it. 

Ms. KERMAN. OK. 

Senator CARPER. I would note this. I am an Ohio State graduate, 

undergrad, and one of the things that attracted me to the 

KEY/Crest Program, which we instituted in our adult prison system at Gander Hill Prison that Barry McCaffrey, the Nation’s Drug 

Czar, came to see, the guy who developed, helped us develop that 

and implement it in Delaware, was Jim Inciardi from Ohio State 

who literally came out of Columbus, Ohio, and, frankly, worked 

pretty well. 

Mr. Dillard, same question. Give us just one great example. 

Piper has given us one. Give us one, as well. 

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I personally feel that the work is on the offenders themselves, and it was a lifer who really made a difference 

in my life, who spoke life into me. And throughout my prison sentence, I realized how the older inmates really worked with and 

tried to encourage the younger ones. I still feel that you cannot 

leave formerly incarcerated citizens out of the equation. Mr. Ofer. 

Mr. OFER. So, if I may, I am going to give two quick examples. 

Senator CARPER. Go ahead. 

Mr. OFER. One is solitary confinement, since that was the focus 

of my testimony. There are examples of States that have dramatically reduced solitary confinement without causing risk to staff and 

to inmates, and a good example is Colorado. In 2011, Colorado 

placed in solitary confinement about 7 percent of its incarcerated 

population. Today, it is about one percent of its incarcerated population. We have seen a dramatic decrease in the use of solitary by 

banning the use of solitary against some vulnerable populations, 

like people with serious mental illness, and by restricting the number of days that you could be sent. So, that is one. 

The second example is bail reform, and what we have done in 

New Jersey and what other States and some municipalities are 

looking at, in New Jersey, we had 10,000 people sit in jail awaiting 

their trial because they could not afford a few thousand dollars in 

bail. We have completely revamped that system, where now your 

bail and whether you are going to be released pre-trial or not is determined by your risk assessment and not by whether you are poor 

or rich. 

We believe that that change in and of itself will lead to about 

three-quarters of the 10,000, so 7,000 to 8,000 fewer people sitting 

in jail. Before this reform, the average time that a person sat in 

jail awaiting their trial was 314 days. These are people that are 

presumed innocent until proven guilty and they were being treated 

like guilty, and this is a phenomenon all over the country. And, 

this is one of the ways that we can dramatically reduce our jail 

population in the United States. 

Senator CARPER. Let me just close by saying this. Senator Booker 

and I talked about the moral imperative that we have in this country, to look out for the least of these. We also have a fiscal imperative. And while our budget deficit is down a lot, it is still substantial, and we have a fiscal imperative to meet the moral imperative 

in a fiscally responsible way, hence the need to find out what is 
19 

working, do more of that, find out what is not working and do less 

of that. Thank you so much. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Carper. 

Before I turn it over to Senator Booker, because you mentioned 

my name and did not quite get it right, I said that we jail people 

to punish and to deter, but then I also fully mentioned the mission 

statement of the Bureau of Prisons, to ensure that offenders are actively participating in programs that will assist them in becoming 

law-abiding citizens when they return to our communities, and, of 

course, I highlighted Ms. Kerman’s testimony where she quoted 

Thomas Mott Osborne, ‘‘Shall our prisons be scrapheaps or human 

repair shops?’’ I strongly hope that our goal is that they are human 

repair shops. 

So, with that, Senator Booker. 

Senator BOOKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Udi, let us jump in real quick. So, solitary confinement. Can you 

please describe this, because as I have had these conversations 

with friends and others, people often think that solitary confinement is a result of someone having done something wrong in prison, and why is solitary confinement so commonplace? Is it because 

prisoners are doing things wrong in prison? 

Mr. OFER. Well, we have seen as a Nation a dramatic increase 

in the use and reliance on solitary over the last couple of decades. 

We do not have exact reliable scientific data since we actually do 

a terrible job as a country tracking how many people are placed in 

solitary, but there is consensus that its use has increased dramatically, particularly in response to overcrowding, and where prison 

officials are overwhelmed and their quick reaction is to send people 

to the hole. 

So, we have examples from New Jersey, we have examples from 

around the country of people being sent to solitary for things like 

talking back. I will give you a New Jersey example, out of New Jersey State Prison in Trenton, where an inmate by the name of Sean 

Washington, in 2013, he was a clerk at the library and he wanted 

to leave the library to go bring some legal papers to one of the 

other inmates. Yet, a corrections officer said, you cannot leave, and 

the facts here are a bit disputed, but the worst facts, the facts that 

the State claims, is that Mr. Washington then said, ‘‘Mother f-er’’ 

to the correction officer, ‘‘do not tell me what to do.’’ That is the 

worst facts. What was his punishment? Ninety days in solitary confinement. 

That is a real example. Those are examples that we see all across 

the Nation. 

Senator BOOKER. I am just wondering, just for time, so we know 

that people are being sent to solitary for many different reasons. 

Mr. OFER. Right. 

Senator BOOKER. Some of them have to do with administrative 

issues and the like. Does it work in terms of in somehow affecting 

the behavior of prisoners? Is there any productive value in the Bureau of Prisons? 

Mr. OFER. Well, I am going to push back for a second on some 

language that you used, in that some people are sent to solitary for 

administrative reasons. That is a loaded term, because the Bureau 
20 

1The report referenced by Mr. Ofer appears in the Appendix on page 144. 

of Prisons and other prisons commonly call solitary administrative 

segregation—— 

Senator BOOKER. Right. 

Mr. OFER [continuing]. And it sounds really harmless, but in effect, it is solitary and people are sent there for really minor reasons, and some reasons are for protective custody, like I mentioned 

in my testimony. 

For example, the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) 

community, which faces disproportionate harassment from other 

inmates in prisons, a lot of times, they will be sent to involuntary 

protective custody to protect them from inmate violence, yet they 

are being punished. We see this happening all the time. 

In the Bureau of Prisons, for example, according—oh, you asked 

what was—does it actually work? So, recently, there was an independent review that was released to the public in February of this 

year by the Center for Naval Analyses (CNA) that looked at solitary practices in our Federal prisons and it looked to this question. 

Does inmate behavior change following solitary? And their response 

was, absolutely no. 

Senator BOOKER. I would just like to pause there. Can we have 

that report put into the record1 for this hearing. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Without objection. 

Senator BOOKER. And then I want to just also say that not only 

LGBT, lesbian and gay prisoners, but, obviously transgender—— 

Mr. OFER. Transgender, absolutely. But, let me actually say what 

the CNA report actually found, because it is very important. It 

looked at an inmate’s disciplinary record 12 months before being 

sent into solitary and 12 months after coming out of solitary, and 

it found virtually no change whatsoever. 

Senator BOOKER. So, let us get to your article you held up today, 

the consensus upon medical experts. What is the damage, the trauma, the effect on an individual to be in solitary confinement, you 

said a shockingly, often on average, of 4 years? I have talked to numerous inmates who have experienced that length or more. What 

is the damage done to someone in general, and would you also include in that someone who already has a mental health challenge? 

Mr. OFER. First of all, when I think of this issue, and to use an 

example that is contemporary, I think of it similar to climate 

change, in the sense of there are certain people that just deny the 

science. Yet, within the scientific community, there is consensus. 

There is consensus about climate change and there seems to be 

consensus also about solitary confinement. 

Senator BOOKER. Please do not lose this Committee by talking 

about climate change. [Laughter.] 

Let us stick to the bipartisan consensus here. [Laughter.] 

Mr. OFER. But, what I mean is that there is consensus in the scientific community about the harms of solitary confinement, and 

there are really two kinds of harms. One is that it exacerbates preexisting conditions, so mental illness that existed before is exacerbated and becomes worse. 

And, second, it also produces mental illness and also physical illness, things like anxiety, depression, hypersensitivity to stimuli, bi-
21 

polar disorder, there have been documentations of that. The list is 

long, and I am happy to provide the Committee with citations to 

every—— 

Senator BOOKER. I think that would be helpful if you would provide more citations. 

Mr. OFER. We will do that. 

Senator BOOKER. I want to switch. First of all, I just want to say, 

both to Mr. Dillard and Ms. Kerman, it is extraordinary that you 

are here with your testimony about what the experience of actual 

people who have been behind bars, and that is extraordinary. 

And, Ms. Kerman, I would like to just, in the little bit of time 

that I have left, just drill down on something that is often not 

talked about, but what is happening as a result of overcrowding. 

We saw this in Danbury when it was converted into a low-security 

men’s facility. You were close to your family, and I am really wondering, what impact does being in prison in close proximity to loved 

ones have on an inmate, and what impact would gender-specific 

programming have on a woman’s ability to successfully reenter. If 

you could, in the one minute I have left, just hit on both of those 

issues really briefly. 

Ms. KERMAN. OK. Proximity to home, family, and community is 

overwhelmingly important for both men and women who are confined to prison or jail. The opportunity to—— 

Senator BOOKER. And, let us just be clear. The majority of 

women in prison have children, and the majority of imprisoned people, period, are the No. 1 breadwinners for the family before they 

are incarcerated. 

Ms. KERMAN. Absolutely. The overwhelming number of women in 

prison are mothers, and most of those mothers are the mothers of 

minor children, kids under the age of 18, who experience sort of a 

seismic impact when their mothers are incarcerated because a lot 

of those moms are single moms who have primary responsibility for 

their kids. 

So, the opportunity to touch your children, to hold, for your children to be reassured that their mother or their parent is OK is incredibly important both to parent and child. The opportunity to see 

your own parents or family members, to maintain ties to the community, broadly considered, to which you will almost inevitably return—Senator Johnson is absolutely correct. The vast majority of 

people who are in prison are coming home from prison. 

So, those lifelines to the outside community are incredibly—we 

cannot overstate how important they are to public safety, to people’s safe and successful return home to the community, because 

when prison—when correctional systems, whether it is the BOP or 

otherwise, cut those lifelines by making visits very difficult, by 

placing people very far from their families, or by making prisons 

inaccessible in other ways, by making phone calls exorbitantly expensive, or by—many jails have ‘‘no contact’’ visits through glass, 

which is a huge disincentive to have a visit—those lifelines are cut 

and the person who is incarcerated is much less likely to have both 

the family support, the safe and stable housing, the access to networks which might help them gain employment, all of which are 

primary concerns for successful reentry. And that is true whether 
22 

you are talking about men or whether you are talking about 

women. 

When we are talking about female prisoners, just very quickly 

and briefly, we know that the three things that drive women’s involvement in crime in their incarceration are substance abuse, 

mental illness, and, again, that overwhelming experience of violence, either sexual violence or physical violence. Eighty percent or 

more of women and girls in the system report that happening to 

them before they were incarcerated. 

So, the problem with incarceration—prisons and jails are very 

harsh places by design—is that for prisoners who have experienced 

very significant trauma, like rape, childhood sexual abuse, domestic violence, many of the commonplace correctional practices are 

very reminiscent of some of those abuses. And, so, that creates a 

serious challenge in terms of regular engagement with female prisoners in terms of their rehabilitation and in terms of their, again, 

ability to return home safely. 

Senator BOOKER. In deference to my colleagues, I am over time, 

but thank you for that substantive—— 

Ms. KERMAN. Absolutely. Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Booker. 

And, by the way, when Mr. Ofer delved into climate change, he 

did not lose the bipartisan agreement. [Laughter.] 

I think we, by and large, agree there has been climate change, 

always has been, always will. Senator Heitkamp. 

Senator BOOKER. And vaccines work, is that correct? [Laughter.] 

Chairman JOHNSON. Yes, they do. 

Senator BOOKER. Yes, they do. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

At the risk of being embroiled in that side discussion, I was the 

Attorney General in North Dakota, spent a lot of time—actually, 

most of the drug task forces were under my jurisdiction and we ran 

a lot of those, and it was at a time when there was a growing concern in 1992 with the drug problem and with more and more violent crime. And as a result, we saw incarceration rates really skyrocket because of desperation. 

And, I will tell you this. It has been my experience that we constantly treat the symptoms, but never treat the disease, and that 

is really where we are today, talking about how do we treat the 

symptoms and not how do we treat the disease. 

I will tell you a story about a very wise man. I did a juvenile justice project, and one where we made it a little easier to transfer 

kids into the adult system. But, I traveled around the State of 

North Dakota with a prison warden by the name of Winston 

Satran. He was a very wise guy, and at the time in North Dakota, 

you could actually interview every prisoner who came into the prison system, and he would sit down and he would say, tell me about 

your life. And as they talked, they would say, my parents were divorced at 11 and I went to live with my grandma, and he would 

write ‘‘11’’ in their prison file, because in his opinion, that prisoner 

was 11 years old emotionally. 

And, that is where we get stuck, because a lot of this is related 

to trauma. A lot of this is related to not understanding trauma. 

And we exacerbate it by not only treating the trauma, but engaging 
23 

in behaviors that further the trauma, whether it is isolation from 

family, whether it is isolation from any human contact at all. 

And, so, let us be honest about the task that this society has imposed on the Bureau of Prisons. None of this should be any judgment on the Bureau of Prisons. We have given them an impossible 

task. They have to take in—and prison crowding is part of that. 

They have to maintain some level of security. And they are as desperate for solutions as what they can be. But, we are here talking 

about things that are way downstream, and we are not here talking about things that are upstream. 

And, so, the juvenile justice system is led, really, by a lot of very 

enlightened people at the Department of Justice, has really begun 

a transformation into trauma-informed and trauma-based therapies, looking at what can we do to treat trauma, how can we basically prevent a lot of abuse, and a lot of abuse is self-medication. 

A lot of addiction, it is chemical, I get it. I get that that is maybe 

the old model. But, a lot of it is self-medicating for the trauma that 

has been experienced in people’s lives. 

And, so, with all of that, I would like to know how we could design a system of prevention so that we do not see more people. 

What would you all, in your experience, like to see in communities 

that would prevent the kinds of outcomes that we are seeing right 

now in the Bureau of Prisons? And we can start with you, Ms. 

Kerman. 

Ms. KERMAN. I think it seems that there is a tremendous amount 

of recognition—thank you for the question, Senator 

Heitkamp—that substance abuse and mental health problems, including full-blown mental illness, but also the everyday demons 

that many people suffer at some point in their lives, contribute to 

people’s bad choices and breaking the law. And, so, a significant 

commitment to handle those health problems in the public health 

system as often as possible rather than criminal justice system—— 

Senator HEITKAMP. Can I ask just quickly, of the women that 

you worked with and were incarcerated with, how many of them 

were given a choice of drug court or some kind of intermediate kind 

of intervention? 

Ms. KERMAN. Yes, that is very rare in the Federal system. That 

is much more common in State systems or county systems of justice. There is a program in New York called Justice Home, where 

women who are facing at least a year of incarceration, when their 

district attorney and their judge agree, are able to enter this program called Justice Home. They stay at home, generally with their 

children, and are, face a set of accountability measures, but also 

get the mental health interventions or the substance abuse interventions, the parenting classes, the vocational training, whatever is 

specific to their case that is needed for them to get better outcomes. 

In New York, it costs about $60,000 a year to incarcerate somebody. That program costs about $17,000 a year. If we threw in the 

cost of foster care for a family with two children, the costs would 

mount to $129,000 a year. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Thank you. 

Ms. KERMAN. So, yes. That is a good example. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Mr. Dillard. 
24 

Mr. DILLARD. Thank you for your observations, Senator 

Heitkamp. Trauma-informed care is truly something that is needed 

if we are going to be preventive. All I can use myself as an example 

of someone who had traumas at the age of 12, 13 years old, who 

walked around with them for 35 years, never addressed, and I am 

just bearing them. When I was diagnosed, I had been severely depressed most of my life, one reason that I self-medicated with illegal drugs. Had I been diagnosed, maybe I could have been given 

legal drugs and avoided the criminal justice system. 

The fact is, we never look at the cause. We just look at the effect. 

And many of these young men and women who I encounter in the 

work that I do today have tremendous traumas, and we are working as a peer organization to help them work through that to avoid 

walking around a hurting people, because we know that hurt people. And, if we do not address those traumas early on, then further 

down the road, after recidivism, we are still going to be paying a 

much higher cost. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Thank you. Mr. Ofer. 

Mr. OFER. So, I am going to give a perspective informed by the 

fact that I spend a lot of my time in Newark, New Jersey, which 

is a terrific city, and it is a city that is plagued by poverty, and 

in certain communities, there is violence. And, what I see in Newark, and really a lot of urban areas across New Jersey and even 

across the country, is that the only agency that is available in that 

municipality to address social needs, or at least the agency that is 

primarily available, is the police department. And, to me, that is 

the root cause of the problem. 

You have well-meaning police officers, you have well-meaning 

city officials that literally have no one else to go to if there is, let 

us say, some minor misbehavior happening on the street that is 

minor, but that should not be treated by the criminal justice system. 

And, I will criticize also diversion programs. While they are certainly better than sending someone directly to jail or prison, my reaction is, this person should not have been entangled with the 

criminal justice system in the first place. They should not have 

been arrested and then diverted to alternative programs. We need 

to buildup the resources of municipalities, of States, to have other 

agencies to go to when they are interacting with people with mental illness or with drug addiction problems. 

Senator HEITKAMP. And, if I could just close with a comment, the 

stigmatization of that label is something you will carry the rest of 

your life. 

Mr. OFER. Yes. 

Senator HEITKAMP. It will prevent you from getting student 

loans. It will prevent you from getting a job. And, so it is with a 

great deal of care that we should take that next step, because we 

are, in fact, relegating that person to a certain quality of life for 

the rest of their life, especially given the age of the Internet, where 

we can find out anything about anyone. 

And, so, I just wanted to make a broader point, that we are here 

to talk about what we are going to do with high incarceration 

rates, but we cannot look at this problem without looking at the 
25 

broad scope of services that are provided and how we can work 

more effectively for prevention. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Heitkamp. Senator 

Ayotte. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AYOTTE 

Senator AYOTTE. Thank you. I want to thank all of you for being 

here. 

I think, like my colleague, Senator Heitkamp, we both were Attorneys General in our State before we came here to the Senate, 

and one of the things that I had worked on as an AG was reentry 

programs. And, I am a strong supporter of the Second Chance Act 

and supporting its reauthorization, but saw it from an Attorney 

General context where even people who were incarcerated for serious crimes, that we did not give them any path for success going 

forward, because they came out, if they had a substance abuse 

problem, the underlying issue was never dealt with. If there were 

mental health factors, that was not dealt with. No job. No place to 

live. If you put yourself in those shoes and you are that person and 

you are put out on the street, then, I dare say that all of us around 

this dais probably would not be able to put it back together. 

So, I wanted to get your thoughts. Dr. Dillard, I saw that your 

focus is really, as I understand what you are working on, it would 

be some form of reentry program, and we saw it in our State get 

some momentum and then sort of fizzle and wanted to get your 

thoughts on reentry-type programs and what more we could do to 

make them more effective to try to end this cycle and to get people 

on to productive lives. And then I have some other followup questions, but I would appreciate it. 

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I think reentry is a crucial point if there is 

planning done and individuals are giving different options. I know 

the Federal system, 6 months in a halfway house is something that 

I went through that was very beneficial for me. I just was not released to the streets, and I was able to obtain employment during 

that period and save some money to be able to rent a room, at 

least, when I was done with my Federal time. 

What I am seeing today, though, is young men coming out of our 

State and county systems homeless, 17, 18 years old, who cannot 

go live with their mother because they have been told, you cannot 

go there because of substance abuse connected to their housing. 

And, they are couch surfing. And, oftentimes, when they are couch 

surfing, it is probably with those who are not doing so well or the 

anti-socials that had an influence on them being placed in the 

criminal justice system in the very first place. 

Housing initiatives are huge. I do not have the solutions, but I 

can say that we are working on them in the region that I am working in. Nonprofits and faith-based organizations are engaging with 

us in providing housing at an affordable rate. 

Preparation is huge. Individuals have to identify certain things 

while in custody in order to have a paradigm shift that this cannot 

be an option. This cannot be an option. 

I had a client to tell me that committing a new crime was not 

his first choice, but it was his very last option, and I know the troubling times that he was in, sleeping on park benches, could not go 
26 

to the shelter for various reasons, and he committed a new crime. 

As he told me, it was not his first choice, it was his very last option. And, so, the reentry process, along with all the barriers. 

I think mentoring from formerly incarcerated or connections with 

organizations that hire formerly incarcerated, because we are Ambassadors. I look at us as being those who can help them through 

those trying times and pivot points of reentry. 

Mr. OFER. Senator, may I respond to that question very quickly? 

Senator AYOTTE. Sure. 

Mr. OFER. This is an oversight hearing on the Bureau of Prisons, 

and the independent review that I keep referencing to, and I am 

happy to submit my annotated copy—you will have a lot of highlighting—actually looked at this question of the Bureau of Prisons’ 

practices on reentry programming, and here is its finding in one 

sentence. ‘‘There is no formal Bureau-wide reentry preparedness 

program specific to restrictive housing and inmates in these settings have very limited access to reentry programming.’’ 

The Bureau does not do a good job in reentry programming. 

About 2,000 people a year in the Federal Bureau of Prisons (FBOP) 

go from solitary back to community. One of the things the study 

found is that many of them—they do not know the exact number, 

because the Bureau does not track it—are sent directly from solitary back to communities. That is a terrible practice that needs to 

stop immediately. There needs to be a focus on reentry programming in the Federal Bureau of Prisons. 

Senator AYOTTE. Thank you. 

And, Ms. Kerman, I wanted to ask you, one of the things that 

we are seeing, and I saw this when I was AG, as well, but we are 

seeing just on a devastating scale in our State right now is opioid 

and heroin addiction. I have been working on legislation called the 

Comprehensive Addiction and Recovery Act. I am hoping that we 

are going to take this issue up here to not only the—I hope the Second Chance Act, but also this Comprehensive Addiction Recovery 

Act. 

There was some discussion you had about this idea of alternative 

courts up front. What would you do as you think about this issue? 

How many people did you encounter that had addiction issues that 

were underlying why they were in prison? And how do you 

see—this, to me, to Senator Heitkamp’s point, I fully agree. We 

cannot arrest our way out of this. This is a public health crisis. 

Ms. KERMAN. Yes. 

Senator AYOTTE. But, I wanted to get your thoughts on what you 

think we should be focusing on those. 

Ms. KERMAN. Thank you, Senator. What is happening in New 

Hampshire is also happening in Ohio and all over this country in 

terms of huge spikes in deaths from heroin and other—— 

Senator AYOTTE. It is devastating. I mean, you would not believe 

the parents that are coming to me. It is just heartbreaking. 

Ms. KERMAN. Yes, it is. It is devastating. It is fundamentally a 

public health question first and foremost, and so it is intersections 

with the criminal justice system really should be secondary, particularly as we continue to see violent crime rates very low. 

And, so, while obviously people who sell or use drugs are breaking the law, remembering that intervening in that addiction cycle 
27 

is the single most important thing and cannot be accomplished 

with a prison or a jail cell, is completely central. 

We see a lot of folks in the States trying lots of different things, 

and I am obviously neither a doctor nor an expert in addiction, but 

we see safe harbors in places like, I believe, Gloucester, Massachusetts, and some other parts of the New England States have really 

tried very innovative approaches to getting folks the medical help 

they need and having that be the primary concern rather than incarceration. 

When we look at States like New York, New Jersey, California, 

the States that have reduced their prison populations the most and 

also have simultaneously continued to enjoy huge declines in violent crime, one of the things that we have seen in those States, and 

I know Udi could weigh in on New Jersey, is a huge decline in 

prosecutions and incarceration of people for low-level drug offenses 

and a recognition that public disorder is a reflection of a health 

problem and that is the way to tackle it. 

Senator AYOTTE. Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Ayotte. Senator Baldwin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BALDWIN 

Senator BALDWIN. Thank you. 

First of all, I want to thank our panelists. What a tremendous 

opportunity it is to hear from you and interact with you. 

Mr. Chairman, I really want to join the thanks for holding this 

hearing, also to the Ranking Member. As you said in the outset 

and many have commented, this is a very big and very complex 

issue, and so I hope we will have additional opportunities, and I 

want to say that I am glad that you are recognizing this Committee’s role in that discussion and I hope that we can keep that up. 

There are a number of things I wanted to touch on. I heard the 

Ranking Member talking about upholding the models in States 

that are working, and I usually love to brag about my State, but 

in this particular case, I am just going to share some of the statistics about racial disparities in the incarcerated population in our 

State. 

In Wisconsin, African Americans constitute only 6 percent of the 

State population, a little bit more. Thirty-five percent of those incarcerated in State prisons are African American. According to a 

recent study from the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee, 13 

percent of Wisconsin’s African American men of working age were 

behind bars, which is almost double the national average of 6.7 

percent. And the figures were particularly shocking and dismal for 

Milwaukee County, where more than 50 percent of African American men in their 30s had served time in prison. Forty-five percent 

of the inmates at our Federal correctional facility, Oxford, are African American, and 19.3 are Hispanic. And, I hope as we continue 

to work on this very complex issue that that will be on our minds. 

I also just wanted to mention, and people were talking about 

their previous service, attorney generals. I was never attorney general. I practiced law in a small general practice firm at the very 

beginning of my career, mostly general practice. A couple of times, 
28 

I took misdemeanor public defender cases. That is really my only 

immediate interaction. 

But, I was becoming involved in county politics and State-level 

legislative office at this time where I felt like I saw the precursors 

of what we are seeing now being debated. So, I had the honor, actually, as serving as Chairwoman of the Corrections Committee in 

the State legislature for one term. I actually took our committee to 

prisons for tours, for visits for conversations with people who 

worked there, people who were inmates there. We had sometimes 

legislative hearings in the prisons. We went to the intake facility, 

one of the maximum-security prisons, one of the medium-security 

prisons for men, one of the minimum-security prisons for men. We 

went to the women’s prison on a couple of occasions and visited 

work-release facilities. 

At the same time, the legislature was talking about should we 

allow private prisons to be built and run in Wisconsin? Should we 

contract with other States to deal with our overflow issues and 

have them house our Wisconsin prisoners? And the counties were 

doing the same thing, because some of the jails at the county level 

were overflowing. 

And the debate, the substantive criminal justice debate in our 

State at the time, and this is the early 1990s, three strikes you are 

out, elimination of probation parole. We were creating new felonies. 

We had an A felony and a B felony. We created an AB felony. New 

crimes were being created. And, there was a lot of debate about the 

elimination of prison-based vocational programs. Mandatory minimums were a big topic. You could see all of this sort of in the future, and now the future has come and it is not going to be overnight that we figure out what missteps we have had and how we 

deal with this in a saner way. 

I have a couple of questions, and if I do not get to all of them, 

I am hoping that you will be willing to submit some answers in 

writing for some things we might not get to. 

Quickly, Mr. Kerman, you mentioned that women are the fastestgrowing prison population right now. I remember years ago when 

I was visiting the women’s prison in Wisconsin, it seemed that, to 

me, there were gender differences in how they dealt with certain 

issues. We have talked a lot about solitary confinement. Is there 

a gender difference in how these issues are dealt with in women’s 

prisons? For example, I remember being very concerned about overmedication of women in the women’s prison to deal with behavioral 

issues as opposed to placement in solitary confinement. Is this 

something we should still be looking at? 

Ms. KERMAN. We should absolutely be looking at the use of solitary confinement in men’s and women’s prisons. I echo Udi’s testimony that solitary confinement is often used not for the most serious infractions, like an assault, for example, but rather for very 

low-level infractions. Women are overwhelmingly likely to be incarcerated for a non-violent crime and are very unlikely to use violence while they are incarcerated. Women’s facilities do not tend to 

struggle with violence as one of their guiding issues in terms of security. Solitary confinement is overwhelmingly used as a punitive 

measure. 
29 

Female prisoners are disproportionately likely to suffer from 

mental illness. Mental illness in men’s facilities is a huge problem. 

It is an even bigger problem in women’s facilities. 

One of the tragic things about solitary confinement is that mentally ill people have a more difficult time following the rules of a 

prison, and so what you see is spiraling sanctions which ultimately 

land them in solitary confinement, a place profoundly inappropriate for anybody with mental illness. A regularly healthy person 

who is placed in solitary confinement for 10 days, after 10 days will 

start to significantly deteriorate mentally, emotionally, psychologically, let alone a mentally ill person placed in those circumstances. 

Senator BALDWIN. Since I only have a couple of seconds left, let 

me ask a quick question about reentry and both in-prison and after 

prison access to vocational and educational programming, and you 

can certainly feel free to elaborate after the fact in writing, because 

I know I have such limited time. 

But, again, I recall the restriction of any sort of public funds or 

individualized financial aid assistance to those, particularly in 

State prison, because that was something I was looking at closely. 

I believe that has continued over time, and we have additional restrictions once a person is back in the community, they want to 

seek additional vocational or higher education generally. It makes 

it impossible for the financial aid. 

You have talked already, Mr. Dillard, about people emerging burdened with debt not related to higher education. Tell me a little bit 

about the options for people to secure post-high school education 

upon release. 

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I am seeing more opportunities opening up 

for individuals post-release. At one time, there was you check a box 

and you could get student loans. I am happy to hear that the Pell 

Grants, there is a pilot going on within the Federal system with 

Pell Grants. I am so happy to hear that, because it is a fact that 

individuals prior to 1994—I know many individuals who served 

time prior to that who came out with Associates’ degrees and went 

on to achieve Bachelors’ and Masters’. The fact is, 98 percent of 

those who get a Bachelor’s or a higher degree never return to prison. I mean, that is something that we cannot ignore, and I think 

that we should support as far as higher education within the system. 

Senator BALDWIN. Thanks. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Baldwin. 

We do have a second panel, and we could keep going on. This has 

been fascinating. Again, I want to thank this panel. 

As we talked beforehand, the purpose of every hearing, from my 

standpoint, in this Committee is to define a problem, lay out the 

reality so we collectively can admit we have it. I think you have 

accomplished that goal big time—— 

Senator BOOKER. Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Yes. 

Senator BOOKER. If I may, this is such a complex issue and we 

have dealt with such distinct verticals here, from solitary confinement to the lack of reentry programs, it might be good to pick one 
30 

of those verticals, given the vastness of this problem, and maybe 

hold another hearing where we can invite—— 

Chairman JOHNSON. I was just going to get there. This is just a 

first in what I think will end up being a series of hearings. We actually have a mission statement for this Committee, a little unusual for a Senate Committee. It is pretty simple: to enhance the 

economic and national security of America. I think this issue touches both. 

One of the things we have tried to do in this Committee, too, is 

find the areas of agreement. I think what you have seen in this 

hearing is that there is a great deal of bipartisan agreement that 

what we are doing just is not working, and not because of lack of 

effort by our next panel of witnesses, by any stretch of the imagination. 

So, Mr. Ofer, I would encourage you and your organization to 

continue to press for this and work with those of us that want to 

solve this problem. I think your points on solitary confinement are 

dead on and we need to fix that. 

Mr. Dillard, God bless you for having turned your life around 

and taking your circumstance and offering that to your fellow man 

to help other people find redemption and, again, turn their lives 

around, as well. 

Ms. Kerman, I think with your unintended celebrity, I think you 

have done an excellent job of raising these issues. I have already 

spoken to my staff. I liked your answer to the question in terms 

of what are alternatives. And from my standpoint, a rigorous dose 

of community reparation and those types of programs, community 

service, I think is probably appropriate for people that have committed crimes. We do need some punishment. We need deterrence. 

But, hopefully, in those community service, you just might heal and 

you just might find that a far more effective way at dealing with 

these issues than locking somebody up and really seeing the result 

that is simply not working. 

So, again, I just want to thank everybody here on this panel. I 

want to continue to work with you and work with Members of the 

Committee on a bipartisan basis. This is just a first of what will 

be, I am sure, a series of, I think, very important hearings. So, 

thank you very much. 

We will call up our next panel. 

By the way, if you have time, I would love to have you stay and 

listen to our next panel, as well. But, you do not have to feel obligated to. 

[Pause.] 

Mr. Samuels, before you sit down, I am going to ask you to stand 

right away again, because it is the tradition of this Committee to 

swear in witnesses, so if you will both rise and raise your right 

hand. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Committee 

will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 

help you, God? 

Mr. SAMUELS. I do. 

Mr. HOROWITZ. I do. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Please be seated. 
31 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Samuels appears in the Appendix on page 123. 

Our first witness in this panel will be Charles E. Samuels, Jr. 

Mr. Samuels is the Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons and 

was appointed on December 21, 2011. He is a career public administrator in the Federal Bureau of Prisons, previously serving as the 

Assistant Director of the Correctional Programs Division, where he 

oversaw all inmate management and program functions. Director 

Samuels was also responsible for enhancing the agency’s reentry 

initiatives. Mr. Samuels. 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES E. SAMUELS, JR.,1 DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 

Mr. SAMUELS. Good morning, Chairman Johnson, Ranking Member Carper, and Members of the Committee. I thank you for your 

time and focus on the important issue of Federal corrections. 

I am pleased to discuss with you today the operations of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. I am also pleased to speak on behalf of our 

39,000 dedicated correctional workers across the country who are 

on the job 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, to support the Bureau’s 

public safety mission. 

We protect society by confining offenders in facilities that are 

safe, humane, cost efficient, and appropriately secure, and we provide offenders programs to help them become law-abiding citizens. 

Simply stated, we protect society and reduce crime. 

But, we face significant challenges. The Bureau does not control 

the number of offenders who enter our system or the length of their 

stay. We are required to house all Federal offenders sent to prison 

while maintaining safety, security, and effective reentry programs. 

We house offenders convicted of a variety of offenses, many serving long sentences and many with extensive histories of violence. 

Drug offenders make up almost half of our population. We house 

many individuals convicted of weapons, sex, and immigration offenses, to include individuals convicted of international and domestic terrorism. The Bureau is the largest correctional agency in the 

country, with more than 207,500 offenders in 122 Federal prisons, 

13 private prisons, and 178 community-based facilities. 

Our agency began to expand rapidly in the 1980s, due largely to 

the Nation’s War on Drugs. From 1980 to the present, we experienced an eightfold increase in the size of our inmate population. 

Crowding in Federal prisons reached nearly 40 percent systemwide, and even higher at medium-and high-security prisons, where 

the more violence-prone offenders reside. The tremendous growth 

in the inmate population outpaced staffing resources and negatively impacted institution safety. Our ability to effectively supervise prisoners and provide inmate programs depends on having sufficient numbers of staff available at our prisons. 

Recently population pressures abated slightly. In fiscal year 

2014, we saw the first decline in the inmate population in more 

than 34 years, and we project declines to continue for the next couple of years, but crowding will remain a challenge. 

Staff safety, as well as the safety of the public and offenders we 

house, is my highest priority. Every day, our staff put the safety 

of the American people above their own to keep communities safe 
32 

and secure. Some of the saddest days in my 27-year career occurred 

one week in 2013, when two staff were killed in the line of duty. 

Correctional Officer Eric Williams was killed on February 25, and 

the next day, Lieutenant Osvaldo Albarati was murdered. These 

tragedies are powerful reminders of the real dangers our staff face. 

To enhance safety, the Bureau has taken advantage of technologies for contraband detection and perimeter security. We are 

piloting pepper spray for staff. And, we are requiring the use of 

protective vests. We have increased our correctional officer staffing 

at high-security institutions during evenings, weekends, and holidays. 

Over the past few years, we have been proactive in addressing 

concerns regarding the use of restrictive housing. Since 2012, we 

substantially reduced the number of inmates in our special housing 

units and special management units. Less than 7 percent of our 

population is in restrictive housing, and very few inmates are 

housed without another individual in the cell. Our focus is to ensure inmates are placed in restrictive housing for the right reasons 

and for the right amount of time. 

We created new secure mental health units for inmates who need 

specialized treatment as well as a high degree of supervision to 

protect themselves and others. We look forward to making additional reforms in the area of restrictive housing. 

We have a saying in the Bureau, that reentry begins on the first 

day of incarceration. This means that we assess each offender by 

reviewing issues related to criminal behavior, including substance 

abuse, education, and mental health. We offer numerous programs 

to target offender needs and prepare them to transition successfully to their communities. Many of our programs have been proven 

to reduce recidivism, such as the Residential Drug Abuse Treatment Program, Federal Prison Industries, and vocational educational programs. 

We have programs for mentally ill offenders, including those 

with histories of trauma. We also have programs for offenders with 

cognitive impairments, sex offense histories, and those with severe 

personality disorders. We provide programs to help offenders deepen their spiritual faith, and we have programs specifically tailored 

to the needs of female offenders. 

The Bureau relies on a network of community-based facilities, 

residential reentry centers, or halfway houses, as well as home confinement. Community placements help offenders readapt to the 

community and secure housing, jobs, medical care, and more. 

Chairman Johnson, Ranking Member Carper, and Members of 

the Committee, this concludes my formal statement. I am proud of 

the work our staff do to keep Americans safe. Again, I thank you 

for your time and focus on the important issue of Federal corrections. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Director Samuels. 

Our next witness is Michael Horowitz. Mr. Horowitz is the Inspector General for the Department of Justice. During his tenure 

as the Inspector General, the Office of Inspector General has identified a number of areas for possible reform within the Bureau of 

Prisons, including its budget, inmate programming, especially as it 

relates to the elderly inmate population, increasing safety and se-
33 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Horowitz appears in the Appendix on page 132. 

curity risk for inmates, and implementation and management of 

the Compassionate Release Program. Mr. Horowitz. 

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL E. HOROWITZ, INSPECTOR 

GENERAL,1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 

Mr. HOROWITZ. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Carper, and 

Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify 

today. 

The Justice Department faces two interrelated crises in managing the Federal Prison System. Prison costs continue to rise, 

while Federal prisons remain significantly overcrowded. In an era 

of tight budgets, this path is unsustainable. 

Since fiscal year 2000, the Bureau of Prisons’ budget has nearly 

doubled. It now accounts for 25 percent of the Department’s discretionary budget. The BOP has more employees than any other DOJ 

component and the second-largest budget at the DOJ, trailing only 

the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). 

One of the primary drivers of these cost increases, in addition to 

the increased prison population, is health care, which cost the BOP 

over $1 billion in 2014—a 61 percent increase since 2006. This 

rapid increase can partly be attributed to the aging of the Federal 

inmate population. In a recent OIG report, we found the number 

of inmates age 50 and older increased by 25 percent from 2009 to 

2013. By contrast, the population of inmates under age 50 actually 

decreased by one percent, including a decrease of 29 percent for inmates under age 30. This demographic shift is notable because 

aging inmates cost more to incarcerate. 

Our report also found that BOP institutions lack appropriate 

staffing levels to address the needs of the aging inmate population. 

For example, while social workers are uniquely qualified to assist 

aging inmates, BOP employs only 36 social workers nationwide. 

We further found that the physical infrastructure of BOP institutions cannot adequately house aging inmates and that the BOP has 

not conducted a nationwide review of the accessibility of its institutions since 1996. Additionally, we found the BOP does not provide 

programming opportunities specifically addressing the needs of 

aging inmates. 

We also concluded that based on their lower rates of recidivism, 

certain aging inmates could be viable candidates for early release, 

a program that Congress has authorized. However, we found that 

in just over one year following the Attorney General’s announcement of an Elderly Compassionate Release Program, the Department and the BOP only released two elderly inmates pursuant to 

it. 

These findings are similar to what we reported in our 2013 review of the BOP’s Compassionate Release Program for all inmates. 

We found that BOP’s program had been poorly managed and was 

implemented inconsistently. Following our review, the BOP expanded its Compassionate Release Program and has modestly increased the number of inmates released under it. 

In our 2011 review of the Department’s International Prisoner 

Transfer Program, another program Congress has authorized and 
34 

which permits foreign national inmates to serve the remainder of 

their sentences in their home countries, the OIG found that the Department rejected 97 percent of transfer requests and transferred 

less than one percent of inmates to their home countries to complete their sentences. We concluded the Department needed to 

make a number of improvements to the program, including ensuring it accurately determined whether inmates are eligible for the 

program, and we are currently completing a followup review to that 

report. 

Another area where the BOP costs have increased substantially 

is for private contract prisons, which are largely used to house inmates, many of the BOP’s 40,000 non-U.S. national inmates. The 

BOP’s budget for contract facilities is over $1 billion, and the proportion of Federal inmates housed in BOP contract prisons has increased from 2 percent in 1980 to about 20 percent in 2013. Indeed, 

two of the three largest DOJ contractors are private prison providers. 

In addition to addressing rising costs, the Department must also 

continue to address efforts to ensure the safety and security of staff 

and inmates. Prison overcrowding represents the most significant 

threat to the safety and security of BOP staff and inmates with 

Federal prisons at 30 percent over rated capacity. Indeed, in every 

one of its agency financial reports since 2006, the Department has 

identified prison overcrowding as a programmatic material weakness, yet the problem remains unresolved today. 

In addition to overcrowding, the unlawful introduction of contraband presents a serious threat to safety and security. The unauthorized use of cell phones has proven to be a particularly significant risk, and the GAO has reported that the number of cell 

phones confiscated by the BOP more than doubled from 2008 to 

2010. 

Additionally, sexual abuse in prison remains a serious safety and 

security issue. The OIG has continued its longstanding efforts to 

investigate sexual abuse by institution staff at Federal prisons and 

detention facilities. In addition, we recently reported on the Department’s efforts to implement and comply with the Prison Rape 

Elimination Act. 

Finally, a significant management challenge for the Department 

has been measuring the success of its prison programs. An essential building block to achieving performance-based management is 

having reliable data, an issue that has proven to be a challenge for 

both the Department and the BOP. A comprehensive approach to 

the collection and analysis of data on how well BOP programs are 

reducing incarceration rates, deterring crime, and improving public 

safety will help the Department focus its resources and make strategic investments. 

Thank you for the Committee’s continued support for our work, 

and I would be happy to answer any questions the Committee may 

have. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Inspector General Horowitz. 

Director Samuels, let me start with you. First of all, I do not 

envy your task, and I really do want to thank you for your service, 

which has been longstanding. So, let me start there. 
35 

According to your bio that I have in front of me, you began as 

a correctional officer in March 1988. Because we have all quoted 

statistics here that in 1980, the prison population in the prison system was 25,000. Now, it is over 200,000. Can you just give us your 

perspective in terms of what all has happened, what you have witnessed over your career. 

Mr. SAMUELS. Thank you, Senator. From my perspective, having 

joined the agency as a correctional officer in 1988, and around that 

time, the Bureau’s population was a little more than 60,000, I 

think historically, when you look at the Bureau of Prisons and you 

go back to 1940 and from 1940 to 1980, the Bureau’s population 

pretty much remained flat for many years, in excess of 20,000. 

So, in 1980, which is the primary target for this discussion, we 

as an agency, we had approximately 24,000 inmates in the Federal 

system. We had less than 9,000 employees, 41 institutions, and we 

were able to operate the entire Bureau of Prisons for $330 million. 

So, when you look at the increase from 1980 to 2013, we were 

at more than 800 percent population growth and our staffing did 

not keep pace with that growth. And, with our mission, where we 

are tasked with anyone and everyone who is convicted and turned 

over to the Department of Justice and placed in the custody of the 

Bureau of Prisons. We have a job to do, a significant job, and it 

takes staff to do the work that is required. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Let me ask you, from your perspective— 

again, you have been there—what drove that dramatic increase in 

prison population? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Well, the war on drugs in the early 1980s was a 

significant driver on the growth of the population, and as a result, 

we were having more offenders come into the system. And, we have 

a longstanding practice within the Bureau of Prisons, and this goes 

all the way back to the 1930s, that our reentry efforts are always 

in play, and that is to ensure that we are providing rehabilitation. 

But, the challenges associated with what we have to do is we are 

trying to protect the inmates as well as the staff who are in our 

facilities, but the driver has been the war on drugs. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Has there been any legitimate increase due 

to a crackdown on violent crime, that we just really, again, appropriately, cracked down on that, or is that really, like, we did not 

become a more criminal society. We were always arresting those 

people, convicting them and putting them in jail. Are we putting 

them in there longer? I want you to address that potential aspect 

of this, as well. 

Mr. SAMUELS. In regards to violent offenses, there is a mixture 

of individuals in Federal prisons, as you all aware, non-violent 

criminals and those with violence. And within our population, I 

think it is very safe to say that we have very violent offenders in 

our population, to include a significant amount of gang members. 

In the Federal system, we have more than 21,000 security threat 

group members who pose a significant threat to the public, inmates, and staff. 

Chairman JOHNSON. So, again, if we are talking about gang violence, would that also be, again, generally driven by drugs? 
36 

Mr. SAMUELS. It can be driven by drugs if the gangs and those 

who are associated with that activity, if it is part of the structure 

within the gangs for monetary gain. 

Chairman JOHNSON. OK. Let me, again, stick with Director Samuels here and just ask some of the questions in terms of Inspector 

General’s testimony. Why have we not been more proactive in 

terms of some of these early release programs that have been authorized? I mean, is there a risk aversion there, because, I mean, 

who wants to be responsible for releasing somebody into the public 

that is going to commit another violent crime. Can you just kind 

of speak to why we have not taken advantage of those programs 

a little bit more robustly. 

Mr. SAMUELS. Yes, Senator. As Director of the agency, my authority is very limited when you look at taking advantage of the 

various programs that are being referenced. With compassionate 

release, and I will start there, we as an agency did a thorough review and we determined a couple of years ago when we were looking at the number of individuals who would meet the criteria just 

for release based on terminal illness, we discovered that there were 

a little more than 200 inmates in the Bureau of Prisons, and once 

they were identified, you have to go further in making sure that 

for those individuals who are even being considered have the necessary resources if they are, in fact, given the opportunity through 

a motion and are released under that program. So, 200 inmates 

agency-wide with a population at that time that was at 220,000 is 

a very small number. 

Chairman JOHNSON. So, again, we are talking about compassionate release. We are talking about early release. We are talking 

about release to foreign nationals. And, under all three of those 

types of programs, are you saying the law or the regulation is just 

written too restrictively and just does not give you the latitude to 

utilize those programs more fully? Then, Inspector General, I will 

be asking you the same question. 

Mr. SAMUELS. Well, we have expanded, as you know. With the 

Compassionate Release Program, we moved from medical to nonmedical. And even when we look at those cases, and many are 

being referred, when you are looking at the criteria as well as 

being responsible for public safety for any of those individuals having the propensity to continue more criminal activity, we have to 

take that into account. 

With the Treaty Transfer Program, and I do share the concerns 

that the Inspector General has raised, we identified through the 

audit a problem there and we have since that time provided a number of training opportunities for our staff as well as educating the 

inmate population on their rights under consideration for the program, and we have seen an increase. However, when we submit the 

applications for consideration, there is another process that takes 

place with the Department, working with the various countries 

who have agreements under the Treaty Transfer Program, to make 

determinations on when those individuals are removed. 

Chairman JOHNSON. And, of course, they would probably rather 

have the United States bear the cost of keeping those people in 

prison themselves. 
37 

Inspector General Horowitz, can you just kind of, again, speak to 

why, from your perspective, why some of these programs have not 

been utilized more fully. 

Mr. HOROWITZ. I think there are a couple of reasons, and I would 

agree with Director Samuels, in many of them, it is not because of 

the BOP decisionmaking, it is elsewhere in the Department or the 

way the programs have been structured and the restrictions that 

have been placed on their use. For example, elderly release, age 65 

and over is where the threshold was set. The Attorney General announced that with great fanfare in August 2013 the increase in 

that use of that program, yet there are only two, we find, inmates 

being released under that program a year-plus later. 

Why is that? Well, in part, it is because of the 4,000-plus inmates 

who are over age 65 in the Federal Prison System, they have to 

meet certain very strict criteria, and both with regard to meeting 

the criteria, and as we found in that program and Treaty Transfer, 

the discretionary calls that have to be made. And, perhaps it is risk 

aversion. Perhaps it is a feeling that someone got a jail sentence, 

they should complete their sentence. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Let me ask, appropriately strict criteria? 

Mr. HOROWITZ. We had concerns with the elderly provisions, for 

example, requiring people to serve a long period of time and to 

demonstrate a lengthy period of service of a sentence. What that 

meant was for inmates who were the least dangerous, presumably 

had low sentences, they could not get released because they had 

not served a long period of time. That seemed odd to us. 

Chairman JOHNSON. So, that is something we should really take 

a look at. 

Mr. HOROWITZ. Right. 

Chairman JOHNSON. OK. Thank you. I do not want to go too 

much over time. Senator Ayotte. 

Senator AYOTTE. Thank you, Chairman. 

Director Samuels, I actually want to ask you about a particular 

prison in my State that is important, especially. It is in Coos County. It is FCI Berlin. And, I wanted to ask about what the status 

is of staffing at that facility. Warden Tatum has indicated that the 

facility was staffed at about 290 and that there were about 1,200 

incarcerated individuals there. Can you give me an update on levels and also what the ultimate goal is for capacity there and staffing? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Yes. Thank you, Senator Right now, with the plan 

for continued activation of the facility, we are working very closely 

with the warden and staff there to ensure that our recruitment efforts remain on target, and we are also ensuring that as we build 

a population, that we are making sure that the inmate-to-staff 

ratio is where it needs to be so we do not have more inmates in 

the facility until we are very comfortable with the number of staff 

that we have at the facility. And, this is continuing to progress. 

I know there was a concern at one period of time where the applicant pool was not necessarily where we would like it, but with 

the recruitment efforts, we are starting to see that we have a very 

good pool for hiring individuals to work at the facility. 

Senator AYOTTE. So, one followup I wanted on the applicant pool. 

This is an area of our State where people are always looking for 
38 

more jobs, and so to get people from the area that have strong 

backgrounds, one of the issues that has been a challenge is the 37- 

year-old age restriction. And, has the Bureau of Prisons actually reexamined this? I know I had previously written the Bureau of Prisons on this issue, but it is important that my constituents have an 

opportunity that live in the area to work there. 

Mr. SAMUELS. Yes. Thank you again, Senator. Our focus is to 

make sure that we are aggressively hiring from the local community as well as looking at veterans, and we do have the ability for 

individuals who are applying who have served to grant waivers, 

and we are in the process of doing that. 

Senator AYOTTE. Well, that is very good to know, and I appreciate your prioritizing hiring people from the community. I know 

they are anxious and would like opportunities to work there, as 

well as our veterans, so I really appreciate your doing that, and I 

think you will find that there are a really dedicated group of people 

in the area, so thank you for that. 

I wanted to followup on the prior panel. There was quite a bit 

of discussion and criticism, actually, on the reentry program piece 

from the Bureau of Prisons and the commitment toward where we 

are when someone has finished their time and putting forward successful programs and path to success, which I am interested, because with our recidivism rate, it costs us a lot financially and also 

to the individual, to the quality of life that the person has an opportunity to set a new start, if there is not a good system in place 

for success. So, I wanted to get your comments on what you heard 

in the prior panel on this issue. 

Mr. SAMUELS. Well, thank you again, Senator. I, again, will say 

to everyone that reentry is one of the most important parts of our 

mission, along with safety and security of our facilities. And, the 

expectation Bureau-wide is for all staff, all the men and women 

who work in the Bureau of Prisons, to have an active role in our 

reentry efforts. 

On any given day in the Bureau of Prisons we have more than 

52,000 inmates who are participating in education. We have more 

than 12,000 individuals actively participating in our Federal Prison 

Industries Program, which is our largest recidivism reducing program in the Bureau of Prisons. Those who participate are 24 percent less likely to be involved in coming back to prison. And for vocational training, more than 10,000 inmates are participating. And, 

for those individuals who participate compared to those who are 

not, the recidivism reduction is 33 percent. And, you all are very 

familiar with our Residential Drug Abuse Program, and we also 

have our non-residential programs, as well. 

And, we are very adamant in ensuring that these programs are 

provided to all inmates within our population, to have them involved, for a number of reasons. It is safer to manage prisons when 

inmates are actively involved in programs, and we are definitely 

trying to do our part to ensure that for recidivism reduction in this 

Nation, we are taking the lead. 

For the number of individuals who come into the Bureau of Prisons, despite all the challenges and the figures that you are hearing, 

the men and women in the Bureau of Prisons do an amazing job. 

When you look at the specific numbers relative to recidivism for 
39 

the Federal system, when individuals leave, we have 80 percent 

who do not return to the Federal system, 80 percent. We have always known that the overall recidivism for the Federal system is 

40 percent; 20 percent return to the Bureau and 20 percent go into 

the State systems. 

And, I would just also add that there is a study that has been 

done, that for the State correctional systems, and it is 30-plus 

States, when you look at the overall average for recidivism, it is 67 

percent. 

So, I would still say that we have a lot of work to do. I mean, 

the goal is to have a hundred percent individuals never returning. 

But, as I have already stated for the record, the amount of growth 

that has occurred over that time period, we are very limited with 

our staffing, but it does not remove us from the commitment to our 

mission. If our staffing had kept pace with the growth over the 

years, I do believe that I would be sitting here reporting that the 

80 percent would have been much higher. 

Senator AYOTTE. So, I want to give the Inspector General an opportunity to comment on how you think we are doing on reentry 

and any work that you have done on that. 

Mr. HOROWITZ. We are actually, Senator, in the middle of a review of the reentry programs and the use of reentry, and we are 

in the middle of field work going to the institutions to look at those 

programs, look at the education programs, because of the concerns 

we had heard. So, I cannot give you a report yet out on it. I think 

we will have something later in the year for you to look at. But, 

it is a very significant concern. 

I will just pick up on what Director Samuels said about staffing. 

That is a significant issue. That is a significant safety issue, security issue, reentry, because what you see is, first of all, by most accounts, the Federal staffing ratio of inmate to staff is worse than 

many of the State systems, what they have, and that has been exacerbated over time as the prison population has grown. 

There is a cascading effect of that. The Director and the staff 

have to pull people out of other programs to do correctional work, 

that they cannot be doing some of the other programs we are all 

talking about. And, so, that, I think, is lost sometimes and something certainly we are looking at right now is that cascading effect. 

If you understaff the prisons, the Director has to, first and foremost, make sure the prisons are safe. 

Senator AYOTTE. I hope when you issue this report that you will 

also give us guidance on what the models are. What are the best 

models for reentry? If we are going to invest more resources in this 

to create a better path for success for people so that they do 

not—so we can reduce the recidivism rate, I think your recommendations on the piece of what is working best, where we 

should invest resources, would be really helpful. Thank you. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Ayotte. 

While we are quick on this subject, I was handed a note that apparently only 10,000 out of the 210,000 population are participating in that reentry program. Can you just quickly describe why, 

both of you? I mean, it sounds like a very successful program. Why 

are not more people engaged in it? Because I think, in total, we re-
40 

lease about 45,000, I think from the briefing, about 45,000 prisoners every year. 

Mr. SAMUELS. Yes. If the 10,000 is in reference to the vocational 

training programs, we only have a limited number of opportunities 

that we can provide based on the number of inmates in our system, 

and that goes back to the crowding. With increased crowding, you 

have waiting lists in the Federal Prison System, no different than 

any other system. And, the goal is to try to push as many of these 

inmates through, and as we complete classes, we bring more individuals in for participation. 

Chairman JOHNSON. It is what I expected as an answer. I wanted to get that on the record. Inspector General. 

Mr. HOROWITZ. Yes. I think that is generally what we are finding, is there are limited resources. With limited resources mean 

limited number of classes. 

Chairman JOHNSON. OK. Senator Booker. 

Senator BOOKER. Thank you very much. 

Director Samuels, I really appreciate you being here, but more 

importantly—or, excuse me, also, I appreciate the fact that you visited me in my office and take a lot of the issues and concerns. You 

represent the administration as a whole, as the President has. You 

have done some extraordinary steps around overall criminal justice 

reform and I am grateful that you are here today. It means a lot. 

I also want to just echo, you are a part of the law enforcement 

community and your officers put themselves at risk every single 

day to protect this Nation, and I am grateful for the sacrifices that 

your officers have made. I am glad you mentioned, as we see on 

the Federal and State level, we do have officers not just losing 

their lives in the line of duty, but also officers who are injured pretty severely, often, in the line of duty, as well, and we as Americans 

should recognize that and that sacrifice and commitment. 

I want to talk to you really quick and focus my questions on solitary confinement and begin with solitary confinement of juveniles. 

There is a bipartisan dialogue going on right now about putting 

real limitations on the use of solitary confinement. Now, we know 

that this is an issue that faces thousands and thousands of children across America, but when it comes to the Federal system, this 

is actually a very small amount. It would probably surprise a lot 

of people that we are just talking about kids in the matter of dozens. 

So, this is in two populations, really. It is children that are tried 

as adults that are housed in adult facilities, and then the contracts, 

if I am correct, that you do with State facilities for juveniles, as 

well. 

Do you think it is feasible that, as is being discussed in Congress 

right now, and I have been in a lot of the discussions in the Senate, 

that we just eliminate solitary confinement, or severely limit it for 

children, being very specific, for instance, by placing a 3-hour time 

limit on juvenile solitary confinement and banning it really, for punitive or administrative purposes? Is that something that you 

would see as feasible and something that you would be supportive 

of? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Thank you, Senator. I believe that for this issue, 

and in the Federal system, as you have already mentioned, we con-
41 

tract out this service. We do not have any juveniles in an adult correctional facility. And, the expectation that we have with the service providers for us is that at any time they are considering placing 

a juvenile in restrictive housing, they are required to notify us immediately. And, even if that placement were to take place, there is 

a requirement, also, that they have to monitor those individuals 

every 15 minutes. 

So, in regards to your question with looking at the restrictions 

that could be considered, I would say that for our purposes regarding this, that it is definitely something that should be considered 

and looked at as a practice. 

Senator BOOKER. And, so, if Congress were to act on legislation 

putting those severe limitations on the practice, with limitations of 

just a matter of hours, that you would agree that is something that 

is feasible? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Yes. 

Senator BOOKER. I really appreciate that, and that is actually encouraging to the discussions going on right now. And, frankly, it is 

a small population, but doing it on the Federal level would send 

a signal to really resonate throughout our country and, frankly, is 

already being done in some jurisdictions. 

Pivoting to adult solitary confinement, if I may, this practice, as 

you know, has been harshly criticized. If you were listening to the 

other panel, there is a lot of data from the medical community specifically, and also civil rights community and human rights communities. A May 2013 report, which I know you are also familiar with, 

from the GAO found that the Federal Bureau of Prisons did not 

know whether its use of solitary confinement had any impact on 

prison safety, did not know necessarily how it affected the individuals who endure the practice, or how much, frankly, it is costing 

taxpayers in general. 

Just this year, a recent internal audit by the Bureau of Prisons 

noted inadequacies in mental health care and reentry preparedness 

for people in solitary confinement. As was said in the previous 

panel, many people max out in solitary and then find themselves 

going right into the general—I should not say general population, 

but going back into the public. 

In many ways, I think these reports are kind of a wake-up call 

of the seriousness of this issue, and so I first wanted to say, do you 

know right now how many people are in solitary confinement beyond 12 months, or, say, 24 months, or 36 months? Do you have 

that data? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Senator, I can provide that data for you. 

Senator BOOKER. OK. So, we do track those folks who are staying 

in, often for years in solitary? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Yes. And, Senator Booker, First, I would like just 

to state for the Bureau of Prisons, we do not practice solitary confinement. In my oral testimony and my written testimony, our 

practice has always been to ensure that when individuals are 

placed in special housing, we place them in a cell with another individual, to the greatest extent practicable and our staff make periodic rounds to check on the individuals. And, I also believe that it 

is important—— 
42 

Senator BOOKER. And, I am sorry, I just really need to be clear 

on that. Your testimony to me right now is that the BOP does not 

practice solitary confinement of individuals singularly in a confined 

area. 

Mr. SAMUELS. You are correct. We only place an individual in a 

cell alone in special housing if we have good evidence to believe 

that the individual could cause harm to another individual and/or 

if we have our medical or mental health staff give an evaluation 

that it would be a benefit to the individual to be placed in a cell 

alone. We do not under any circumstances, nor have we ever had 

a practice of placing individuals in a cell alone. 

Senator BOOKER. OK. That is astonishing to me, and I would 

love to explore that further, because all the evidence that I have 

is that it is a practice at the Federal level. So, you are telling me 

that there are not people that are being held for many months 

alone in solitary confinement, is that correct? 

Mr. SAMUELS. When you look at the Bureau of Prisons agencywide, that is not a practice. We have three forms. We have our Special Housing Units (SHU), which are the majority of individuals 

throughout the country placed in restrictive housing. We also have 

a program we call—— 

Senator BOOKER. So in the SHU, which they are not individually 

held. 

Mr. SAMUELS. No, sir. And, on average, agency-wide, the average 

amount of time that individuals are spending, on average—again, 

total—is a little more than 65 days. 

Senator BOOKER. And, so, the SHU is not solitary confinement. 

There is not an individual in a cell alone. 

Mr. SAMUELS. That is not the practice in the Bureau of Prisons. 

It never has been the practice. 

Senator BOOKER. I hope there will be another round. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Senator McCaskill. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCASKILL 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you. 

Mr. Samuels, what percentage of the inmates that you are responsible for have been convicted of a violent crime in the Federal 

courts? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Convicted of a Federal crime in—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. Of a violent crime. 

Mr. SAMUELS. A violent crime—— 

[Pause.] 

Approximately 5 percent. 

Senator MCCASKILL. OK. So, we have 5 percent violent, 95 percent non-violent. I think the thing that people need to understand, 

which I am not sure people do, is that 5 percent that committed 

violent crimes, you do not even have primary jurisdiction, probably, 

on most of those crimes in the Federal system. 

I do not think people realize that the Federal law enforcement 

system was not designed or ever intended to address what most 

people think of as crime in this country. It was originally intended 

to be just for those kinds of crimes that, because of the interstate 

nature of them, they needed to be handled by the Federal Government. That would be crimes involving the drugs going from country 
43 

to country, then eventually we started nibbling away at that and 

we started doing bank robbers, and then we started doing interstate kidnappings or interstate—and I know this, because we handled a whole lot of murder cases when I was the prosecutor in Kansas City, and nothing was more irritating to me. 

We had the best homicide detectives, I believe, in the Midwest 

in the Kansas City Police Department. We had experienced prosecutors who handled murders every day, and invariably when there 

was a really high-profile murder case, all of a sudden, the FBI 

would start sniffing around and try to grab that case and find some 

kind of interstate part of the crime so that they would take the 

case, as opposed to us, who handled murder cases all the time and, 

frankly, in my opinion, biased as it may be, had much more expertise. 

I say all this because you are spending $7 billion, and 95 percent 

of that money is being spent on non-violent offenders. That is an 

astounding number on non-violent offenders, an astounding number. So, my question is, how many times have you been brought 

into the policy questions of who is being prosecuted in the Federal 

system and why, because you guys do not get 911 calls. Nobody 

calls the FBI with a 911 call. I used to make the point to my 

friends who were FBI agents, hey, they did not call you. They 

called us. So, the Federal system gets to pick what this is not required. They get to decide what they want to prosecute, unlike 

State prosecutors, who have to make a decision on every single 

case. 

So, are you ever called in to the policy discussions about the 

growth of Federal law enforcement and this massive amount of 

prosecution that is going on and the growth in the prison system, 

because these decisions are being dictated by the Department of 

Justice in how many cases they are actually filing. Are you ever 

consulted on any of those decisions? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Senator McCaskill, I would offer that the Bureau 

of Prisons, when the discussions are taking place, we are brought 

into the discussion when needed by the Department. But, I also 

would share, which I am sure you are aware, that for any policy 

decisions relative to who is being prosecuted, that remains with my 

colleagues in the Department who will be more than anyone else 

regarding this issue capable of responding to that. 

Senator MCCASKILL. So, let us get at the stuff that you can do. 

Let us talk about the Elderly Offender Program. The way you entered into some of the contracts, you did not specify out what the 

costs of home detention was versus your detention, correct? In 

other words, what you did is you did not—you were not able in the 

pilot—is this not correct, Mr. Horowitz, that they were not able to 

discern what a release into home detention was costing versus incarceration in one of the prison facilities? 

Mr. HOROWITZ. That is correct. The GAO found that in their review of the pilot. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Correct. So, you are not in a position that 

you can even analyze what the costs of a home detention program 

versus prison would be, correct? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Well, since that time, once the finding was made, 

we have been working to isolate those costs. 
44 

Senator MCCASKILL. OK. And how are you doing that? 

Mr. SAMUELS. We have put together procedures within our Administration Division, the staff who are responsible for the contracting oversight, to monitor—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. OK. There were 784 of 855 applicants for 

the Elderly Release Program that were denied. Seven-hundredeighty-four out of 855 were denied. Can you explain why they were 

denied, that massive amount? And, these are all elderly. These are 

not young people. 

Mr. SAMUELS. I can take your concern back, but from the knowledge that I have regarding this, many of those individuals, it was 

dealing with the issue of being eligible based on the criteria that 

was put in place. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Who sets the criteria? 

Mr. SAMUELS. The criteria for the pilot? 

Senator MCCASKILL. Yes. Who set it? 

Mr. SAMUELS. That was established by Congress. 

Senator MCCASKILL. So, we are the ones that said that if it is 

a low-level offender that got an 18-month sentence, they could not 

go to a home program unless they had served 18 months? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Well, the Department was involved with the final 

determination on what the criteria would be. But, that was something that was done through conversation between Department 

and Members of Congress. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Well, I would love to know who was in on 

that conversation, if you would provide that to the Committee. And, 

I would like to see the criteria, because if you have 95 percent of 

your population is non-violent, and we know that the recidivism 

rate for people over the age of 55 is somewhere between 2 and 3 

percent—by the way, that is a recidivism rate that any reentry program or any drug court program or any State court system would 

die for. That is an amazingly low recidivism rate. I do not understand how we are turning down 784 of 855 applicants for a pilot 

program. 

It seems to me that the institution is being stubbornly stuck in 

the status quo, stubbornly stuck in the status quo. And, I am so 

excited that we have critical mass around here. As somebody who, 

against a lot of political headwind, started one of the first drug 

courts in the country as an elected prosecutor, I convinced the people in my community and the police department that a drug court 

was a taxpayer factory, because the people who went into drug 

court were either on welfare or they were stealing. They were not 

paying taxes. And, all the non-violent crimes they were committing 

was because they were drug addicted. And that drug court movement—ours began in 1993. It spread all over the country and the 

world because it worked so well. 

Do you know what I had to do? I begged the Federal Government 

to participate in our drug court program. Did not want to hear a 

word about it. I could not even get them to send us their mules, 

the girlfriend mules. They would not even send us those for—I 

mean, I was saying, let me take your cases, your low-level drug offender cases. Would not hear of it in the 1990s. 

And, I am just not sure that we have moved that much in the 

Department of Justice, and I hope we can all work together. 
45 

I know my time is up. I have some questions for the record about 

Reeves County, that contract. Why in the world are we using a 

county as a go-between on a prison contract? And, also, these criminal alien prisons that we have, that half of them are immigration 

offenses, and I am curious about the $1 billion price tag on that. 

So, I will get you those questions for the record. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator McCaskill. 

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but I think we are 

finding another area of agreement here, the Federal Government 

getting involved in something that, from my standpoint, is better 

left to the States and local governments, because they are just better at it. They are closer to it. They use a little more common sense 

approach. 

I have frequently said, Washington, DC, the Federal Government 

definition of it, is the law of unintended consequences, and I think 

we are seeing a lot of that here today—again, not because of good 

intentions, and not because of people working hard and sacrificing, 

but I think that is just basically true. 

I want to be respectful of the witnesses’ times. I know Senator 

Booker had another question here. I am happy to do that. But, let 

us not abuse the time. 

Senator BOOKER. No, I am grateful, and I think we are having 

semantic problems, Mr. Director. So, the DOJ defines solitary confinement as the terms isolation or solitary confinement mean the 

state of being confined to one cell for approximately 22 hours per 

day or more alone or with other prisoners. The health consequences 

for solitary confinement, period, are well learned, and this is a common practice in the Federal system. But, it is not just with other 

prisoners. In the SHU, often, in the Special Management Units 

(SMUs), it is common, as well, and the average stay in that is 277 

days. And in the Administrative Maximum Prisons (ADX), the average solitary confinement is 1,376 days. 

So, this is a real problem and it does exist, and forgive me if my 

semantics were wrong, but I think I have more precision now. 

Mr. SAMUELS. No, sir, and I did want to clarify, and I appreciate 

you bringing the subject back before, that at the ADX, and when 

I testified in 2012, at that time, we had a little more than 400 inmates at the ADX in Florence, Colorado, which makes up less than 

one-third of one percent of our entire population. And for that population, those individuals are placed in a single cell, and the majority of that population, also, when you look at their offenses, 46 percent have been involved in some homicide at some point in their 

lives. 

Senator BOOKER. Again, but the reality is, I do not care if it is 

a homicide, non-violent drug crime, what are we getting for taxpayers for putting them in an environment in which human rights 

folks consider that torture, and we have a medical community that 

has a consensus about torture, or the harmful, excuse me, traumatizing effect of that. 

And, so, what I am just saying is—and again, the crime, violent, 

non-violent, I am just saying that this is a Nation that does not endorse torture or believe that we should traumatize folks, and if 

there is no data that supports us actually having something posi-
46 

tive coming out of this, it has to be a practice that we should end 

or severely limit. And, that is what I am just saying. I am trying 

to do a data-driven approach relying on experts and science. 

And, just because I want to stay on the good side of the Chairman, I am going to shift off of this issue, because I have enough 

questions to last another 10 minutes and I do not think I am going 

to get that. I will tread upon—— 

Chairman JOHNSON. No, you are not. 

Senator BOOKER [continuing]. His indulgences as long as possible. 

So, just real quick, a real quick point. The Bureau of Prisons 

houses 14,500 women. As we talked about in the last panel, overwhelmingly, these women have children, children of a minor age. 

The trauma visited upon children, and those often the primary 

caregivers, there is a lot of issues, and so I just want to get to this 

one reality, that in Danbury, Connecticut, which is a mere 70 miles 

away from the New York City area—I like to call it the Greater 

Newark area—which is an easy reach for visitors from the Northeast, that is going to be changed and those women are now going 

to be moved, slated right now to move to Alabama, to a facility 

there which is about 1,000 miles away from the Greater Newark 

area, a drive that takes more than 16 hours. 

And, so, why was the 500-mile policy enacted, which is a good 

thing, which is something I endorse due to the cost of travel. Would 

you commit to revising the rule to have a presumption of 75 miles, 

if possible? Do you understand? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Yes. 

Senator BOOKER. Is there a chance to revise that rule? 

Mr. SAMUELS. Senator, when we looked at the mission change for 

Danbury, we made every effort to try to make sure through fairness for those offenders who not only were living in the New England States as far as their residence, but we had many offenders 

there who were from California, who were from Texas, and what 

we tried to do is make sure that with the realignment, that we 

move those individuals who were not from that part of the country 

so they could be closer to their families—— 

Senator BOOKER. So, we are taking care of the Californians, but 

there are a lot of people from the Northeast, a lot of women with 

small children who are having those connections effectively severed, and that is very problematic. 

I am just going to shift for now, if I can, and I apologize. I just 

want to quickly just look at the private prison issue real quick and 

shift to Mr. Horowitz, if I can. I do not want you to feel like I was 

ignoring you in this hearing. 

Are you concerned about the growth of private prisons that contract with the BOP, and what have you—that these prisons are accountable to the public, because we have real issues with these contracts, with a total costing us about $5.1 billion for taxpayers—and 

these are for-profit companies that, according to The Sentencing 

Project, 33,830 BOP prisoners were held in private facilities in 

2010, and by the end of 2011, that number has grown significantly, 

to over 38,000. And, I am concerned about oversight. 

And then there is a lack of reporting, information that is just— 

I can get a lot of information easily from the prisons that are being 
47 

run by the Director, but there is this unbelievable, really offensive 

to me, lack of information and data about our private prisons and 

what is going on there. 

And, so I want a last part of that question, and then I am done, 

just will wait for the answer, is the abuse reports of immigrant detainees. Now, I understand these folks are non-American citizens, 

but they are human beings, and the report of abuse at our private 

prisons are troubling. Thousands of men live in 200-foot Kevlar 

tents in some of these facilities that each house about 200 men. 

The facilities are described as filthy, insect-infested, horrible 

smells, constantly overflowing toilets. This is an affront for this Nation, for what we stand for. 

For me, it is an affront, and I am just wondering, what steps are 

you taking to hold these prisons accountable, to lift the veil that 

protects the American public from knowing what is being done 

with billions of these taxpayer dollars. 

Mr. HOROWITZ. We are taking several steps, Senator. We issued 

the report on the Reeves County facility earlier this year, focusing 

on that particular private prison. Some of the issues we found 

there were of concern, much like you have just mentioned. Staffing 

levels, for example, as you know, Reeves County had a riot several 

years ago. One of the issues was supposedly staffing levels. We had 

concerns about staffing. We had concerns about the billing and the 

contracting practices. We made a variety of recommendations on 

that, as to that facility. 

We are currently looking at the Adams County facility in Mississippi, Leavenworth in Kansas, private prisons, as well as a 

broader review looking at the BOP’s monitoring of overall contract 

prisons, because that is an issue of concern, as the spending has 

increased and the number of prisoners has gone from 2 percent to 

20 percent of the overall Federal prison population. That is an 

issue of concern. So, we are doing those reviews. 

Several of the contract prisons, like Reeves, like Adams, like the 

Willacy facility, the Northeast Correctional Center of Ohio, have all 

had riots in the last several years. Those are contract prisons being 

used by the BOP and it has raised the concerns that we are looking 

at closely. 

Senator BOOKER. And, why not better reporting? Why cannot I 

or the public get the same kind of transparency in reporting that 

we would get with the prisons that are directly under the purview 

of Director Samuels? 

Mr. HOROWITZ. And that is something we are looking at, as well, 

because it is an issue both—we are looking at what kind of reporting the BOP is getting from these institutions, in addition, what 

kind of information is flowing and is accessible, and why is not 

more being done to be transparent about that. 

Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, Senator Booker, and you can 

have my personal assurances that I will continue to work with you 

personally. We will continue to use this Committee to highlight 

these issues and work toward solutions. I think this is an important issue. 

I want to thank, again, both of you gentlemen for your service 

to this Nation, for your thoughtful testimony. I want to thank all 

the witnesses. I think we really did accomplish my primary goal of 
48 

every hearing, which again, is to lay out the reality. Let us admit 

we have a problem. We have one here. I am not saying we have 

the real ready solutions, but we certainly have taken that first step 

and we have admitted we have the problem. 

So, with that, the hearing record will remain open for 5 days, 

until August 19 at 5 p.m. for the submission of statements and 

questions for the record. 

This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:37 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 
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