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SEEKING JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF PALESTINIAN 

TERRORISM IN ISRAEL 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT 

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

FEBRUARY 2, 2016 

Serial No. 114–64 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

http://www.house.gov/reform 


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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

MARK WALKER, North Carolina 

ROD BLUM, Iowa 

JODY B. HICE, Georgia 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma 

EARL L. ‘‘BUDDY’’ CARTER, Georgia 

GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin 

WILL HURD, Texas 

GARY J. PALMER, Alabama 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, Ranking 

Minority Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan 

TED LIEU, California 

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey 

STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands 

MARK DeSAULNIER, California 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania 

PETER WELCH, Vermont 

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico 

JENNIFER HEMINGWAY, Staff Director 

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director 

ART ARTHUR, Staff Director, Subcommittee on National Security 

MIKE HOWELL, Counsel 

WILLIE MARX, Clerk 


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SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY

RON DESANTIS, Florida, Chairman 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

JODY B. HICE, Georgia 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma, Vice Chair 

WILL HURD, Texas 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts, 

Ranking Member 

ROBIN KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan 

TED LIEU, California 


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C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on February 2, 2016 ......................................................................... 1 

WITNESSES 

Mr. Brad Wiegmann, Deputy Assistant Attorney General, National Security 

Division, U.S. Department of Justice 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 5 

Ms. Sarri Singer, Founder and Director, Strength to Strength 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 7 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 10 

Mr. Peter Schwartz, Uncle of a Victim of Terrorism 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 14 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 16 

Mr. Arnold Roth, Father of a Victim of Terrorism 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 19 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 22 

APPENDIX 

Submission to the Subcommittee on National Security of the Committee 

on Oversight and Government Reform, From Sherri Mandel, Mother of 

Koby Mandell ....................................................................................................... 48 

Submission From Alan Bauer, A Victim and Father of a Victim of Palestinian 

Terrorism .............................................................................................................. 49 

Statement From Mark Sokolow, A Victim of Palestinian Terrorism .................. 53 

Statement of Farley Weiss, President of the National Council of Young Israel 55 


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SEEKING JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF 

PALESTINIAN TERRORISM IN ISRAEL 

Tuesday, February 2, 2016 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:04 p.m., in Room 

2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ron DeSantis [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives DeSantis, Mica, Lynch, Lieu, and Kelly. 

Also Present: Representative Meadows. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The Subcommittee on National Security will come 

to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. And we do have floor votes pending. It’s just one 

15-minute vote. I’m going to give my opening statement, and if the 

vote has not been called, then we’ll go with the opening statements 

of the witnesses. Once the vote’s called, my plan is to just recess 

the hearing, allow members to vote, and then come back and reconvene. 

Since the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, more than 64 

Americans, including two unborn children, have been murdered by 

Palestinian terrorists in Israel and the disputed territories. Some 

of them were tourists, some were students, some were living and 

working in Israel. Many were Jewish, but some were not. The stories of these American victims are heart wrenching. In 1996, Matthew Eisenfeld was a young graduate of Yale University who was 

studying abroad in Israel. He and his girlfriend, Sara Duker from 

New Jersey, had the misfortune to ride the number 18 bus that 

was blown up by Palestinian terrorists. Matthew’s mother, Vicki, 

later bemoaned the quote, ‘‘lack of justice. It makes me feel like my 

son’s blood is less American,’’ unquote. 

In 2002, Americans Dina Carter, Benjamin Blutstein, Marla Bennett, Janis Coulter, and David Gritz were studying at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. They were eating in the school cafeteria when 

Palestinian terrorists detonated a bomb inside the cafeteria, killing 

them all. 

Malki Roth was a beautiful and talented 15-year-old girl, who 

was eating at the Sbarro Pizza Restaurant on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem on August 9th, 2001, when a Palestinian suicide bomber 

blew himself up. He took 15 civilians with him, including Malki 

and another American, Judith Greenbaum, who was pregnant at 

the time. The person responsible for planning and executing this 

dastardly attack, Ahlam Tamimi, has boasted about this many 


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times on video, yet, she resides in Jordan and hosts a television 

show for Hamas. We are honored to have Mr. Arnold Roth with us 

at today’s hearing. He has traveled from Jerusalem, and we are 

looking forward to hearing his testimony. 

So thank you for joining us, sir. 

In 2001, Koby Mandell was a 13-year-old American boy who went 

on a hike with an Israeli friend, Yosef Ishran. They didn’t come 

home, and their parents were worried. Their bodies were later 

found in a cave. They were so brutally bludgeoned that dental 

records were needed to positively identify the bodies. More than 10 

years ago, the memories of American victims of terrorism, such as 

Koby and others, provide an inspiration for a bill bearing Koby’s 

name, which became the legislative source for the opening of the 

Office of Justice for Victims of Overseas Terrorism within the Department of Justice. 

The American people overwhelmingly believe that terrorists who 

kill Americans abroad must face justice. To this end, the office was 

designed with a purpose of ensuring, quote, ‘‘that the investigation 

and prosecution of terrorist deaths of American citizens overseas 

are a high priority within the Department of Justice. 

The families of the victims of terrorism and their advocates celebrated the creation of the office in the hope that justice would be 

sought and achieved for the victims of terrorist attacks. Indeed, 

when commemorating the establishment of the new office, then-Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez remarked that it would guarantee, quote, ‘‘A voice for the victims and their families in the investigation and prosecution of terrorists who prey on American 

overseas,’’ end quote. 

Yet, DOJ has not been able to cite one example for this committee of even a single terrorist that has been prosecuted in the 

United States for any of the 64 attacks against Americans in 

Israel. Indeed, many of these terrorists roam free as a result of 

prisoner exchanges or evasions. This is not what Congress intended. This is not what the American people want. And this does 

not provide the justice to the victims’ families that has been so 

tragically elusive. 

In fact, the mother of Koby Mandell called the office, quote, ‘‘an 

affront to her son’s name.’’ The case of Ahlam Tamimi is a good example of the DOJ’s failure. She is a terrorist who helped orchestrate the bombing that killed Malki Roth and Judith Greenbaum. 

She was released from an Israeli prison in 2011 as part of a prisoner exchange with the Palestine authority, but she’s bragged 

about her conduct and has maintained a consistent presence on a 

Hamas television station, and, yet, this malignant woman continues to roam free, sowing the seeds of hate. 

When the committee questioned the DOJ about this case, the Department declined to comment. If, in fact, bringing to justice the 

perpetrators of terrorism against Americans in Israel is a high priority for the DOJ, then, surely, people of this nature should be 

prosecuted for their crimes. 

This afternoon, we will hear from those who might have been 

harmed in terrorist attacks or have lost loved ones. I thank them 

for their courage to speak out on this important issue. I also ask 

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viduals who have been impacted by terrorism. We have received 

testimony from Sherri Mandell, mother of Koby Mandell; Alan 

Bauer, a victim and father of a victim; and Mark Sokolow, whose 

family was in a terrorist attack in 2002, as well as the National 

Council of Young Israel. Israel is a magnet for terrorist attacks because it is a pro-Western Democratic nation of biblical significance. 

When Americans are the victims of terrorist attacks in Israel, they 

are, in a sense, being attacked for the shared values that bind our 

two nations, values that drive the jihadists to consume themselves 

in a culture of hate. We cannot allow the lives of our own American 

citizens to be devalued as merely pawns on a diplomatic chessboard. This effectively excuses the terrorist, invites more attacks, 

and leaves lasting scars on our own citizens due to justice being denied. 

I look forward to today’s testimony and eagerly await progress on 

bringing justice to the American victims of terrorism in Israel. 

And with that, I am going to recess the hearing for 5 minutes. 

We have 12 minutes left on the clock. I’m going to go vote. Once 

we have some other members come back, we will reconvene. So I 

thank you for your patience, and I look forward to reconvening the 

hearing in about 15 minutes. 

The hearing is in recess. 

[Recess.] 

Mr. DESANTIS. The hearing will come to order. We are reconvened. Sorry about the delay, but we should be able to finish the 

hearing without having any more breaks for votes. 

I now recognize the ranking member of the Subcommittee on National Security, Mr. Lynch, for his opening statement. 

Mr. LYNCH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. You obviously 

run a little faster than I do from the last series of votes, but I 

would like to thank you for holding this hearing to examine the assistance to U.S. victims of terrorism abroad. And I also would like 

to thank our witnesses here today for your willingness to help this 

committee with its work. 

Ms. Singer, Mr. Schwartz, and Mr. Roth, I would like to extend 

our deepest appreciation on both sides of the aisle for your testimony here today. And as always, our thoughts and prayers remain 

with you and your families for the unimaginable pain and the loss 

that you have endured. We also commend you for your dedication 

and continued work on behalf of U.S. victims of overseas terrorism. 

In the wake of 9/11, a succession of horrific terrorist attacks targeting, or affecting U.S. citizens abroad, occurred around the world. 

These included devastating bombings and other violence in Israel 

that injured and killed Americans, as well as terrorist attacks in 

Bali, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, and the Philippines. In light 

of this threat of terrorism against U.S. citizens abroad, Congress 

established the Office of Justice for Victims of Overseas Terrorism 

in December of 2004 to, quote, ‘‘Ensure that the investigation and 

prosecution of deaths of American citizens overseas are a high priority within the Department of Justice.’’ 

Pursuant to the implementing memorandum issued by U.S. Attorney Alberto Gonzalez in May of 2005, the Office of Justice for 

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tions relating to terrorist attacks against Americans abroad. The 

Office of Justice for Victims of Overseas Terrorism also works with 

the FBI, United States Attorney General’s offices, and other components within the Department of Justice, to safeguard the rights of 

U.S. citizens, victims, and their families. As noted by then-Attorney 

Gonzalez, the FBI is the leading U.S. agency for terrorism investigation involving U.S. citizens. Department of Justice criminal division, and its 93 U.S. attorneys are primarily in charge of terrorism-related prosecutions, along with the National Security Division’s effort to combat terrorism. 

As evidenced by recent events, the mission of the OVT remains 

critical in the face of relentless terrorism plots and attacks perpetrated by the Islamic State, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Jabhat al-Nusra, 

and other terrorist organizations worldwide. Just last week, I arrived in Istanbul, Turkey, on an oversight delegation only 4 days 

after a suicide bombing occurred in the city’s Sultanahmet Square, 

an area heavily frequented by international tourists. I had been 

there previously with my family, my wife and daughter. And I also 

traveled to Beirut, Lebanon, a site of a double suicide bombing in 

November of 2005 that killed two American citizens and a permanent U.S. resident. 

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security-sponsored national 

consortium for the study of terrorism reports that over 100 Americans were killed by terrorists’ violence worldwide between September 11, 2001, and 2014. In addition, the State Department recently estimated that approximately 7.6 million Americans are living abroad, more than 70 million Americans travel internationally 

every year. 

We must make every effort to ensure that U.S. victims of overseas terrorism and their families are afforded the justice they deserve. To the this end, it’s imperative that we conduct meaningful 

oversight of the Department of Justice victims’ assistance process 

in order to identify additional steps that we could take to facilitate 

this important mission. 

I would note that Congress recently enacted a bipartisan omnibus appropriations bill that establishes a new United States victim 

of State-sponsored terrorism fund. This fund may be authorized up 

to $20 million to certain U.S. victims in the aftermath of a terrorist 

attack. Again, we very much appreciate the opportunity to hear 

from Ms. Singer, Mr. Schwartz, and Mr. Roth on your experiences 

with this process. I will also look forward to discussing with all of 

our witnesses how we can address existing challenges to assisting 

U.S. victims of terrorism abroad and their families. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back the balance of my 

time. 

Mr. DESANTIS. I thank the gentleman. 

I will hold the record open for 5 legislative days for any members 

who would like to submit a written statement. We will now recognize our panel of witnesses. 

I am pleased to welcome Mr. Brad Wiegmann, Deputy Assistant 

Attorney General, National Security Division, U.S. Department of 

Justice; Ms. Sarri Singer, founder and director of Strength to 

Strength, and a victim of terrorism herself; Mr. Peter Schwartz, 


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uncle to a victim of terrorism; and Mr. Arnold Roth, father to a victim of terrorism. Welcome to you, all. 

Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses will be sworn in before they testify. Please rise and raise your right hands. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to 

give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 

so help you God? 

Mr. DESANTIS. All witnesses answer in the affirmative; thank 

you and please be seated. 

In order to allow time for discussion, please limit your testimony 

to 5 minutes, or if I talk with some of the witnesses, please do the 

best you can. Your entire written statement will be made part of 

the record. 

Mr. Wiegmann, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

WITNESS STATEMENTS 

STATEMENT OF BRAD WIEGMANN 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Good afternoon, Chairman DeSantis, Ranking 

Member Lynch, distinguished members of the committee. I’m very 

pleased to be here today to talk about the Department of Justice’s 

efforts to seek justice for U.S. victims of Palestinian terrorism in 

Israel. Protecting Americans from acts of terrorism, and ensuring 

that those who commit such acts are brought to justice, is the Department’s highest priority. DOJ’s agents, analysts and prosecutors 

use every available resource and appropriate tool to disrupt the terrorist plots and to investigate and prosecute terrorists. As we perform our mission, the American victims of terrorism are always 

foremost in our thoughts. Our hearts are with them and their families, relatives, and friends who have endured so much pain and suffering because of horrific attacks. We will leave no stone unturned 

in our efforts to ensure that those responsible for those attacks are 

held accountable, no matter where the attack occurred and no matter how long it takes. 

This past year, we brought charges in scores of international terrorism-related cases reflecting the serious and diverse terrorist 

threats that we face today from Al Qaeda and its affiliates, to ISIL, 

to home-grown violent extremists, who are inspired by such groups. 

For more than 10 years, we’ve had an Office of Justice for Victims 

of Overseas Terrorism. The mission of OVT is to ensure that where 

Americans are killed or injured in terrorist attacks overseas, investigation and prosecution remain a high priority, and the rights of 

victims and their families are honored and respected. 

OVT’s operational assistance is focused principally on supporting 

American victims when cases are tried in foreign criminal justice 

systems, as is ordinarily the case in overseas attacks. Its work complements that of FBI’s office for victim assistance, and the victim 

witness coordinators and U.S. Attorney’s Offices, which have a 

more domestic focus. There are a number of different services OVT 

provides to victims, and I would be happy to talk about those in 

greater detail today. Now I know this committee is particularly interested in how we support American victims of Palestinian terrorism in Israel. Terrorist attacks, unfortunately, are all too common in Israel. Many Americans have been injured or killed in these 


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attacks, along with Israeli nationals and others. Seeking to ensure 

that justice is done in each and every case in which an American 

is harmed is our top priority, whether the attacks occurred in the 

United States, in Israel, or anywhere else around the world. The 

nationality of the terrorists or the group with which he or she may 

be affiliated is not relevant to our interest in the case. 

Over the years, the Department of Justice has brought some 

cases against individuals affiliated with Palestinian terrorist 

groups. For example, we have prosecuted more than a dozen individuals associated with Hamas or Palestinian Islamic jihad for financing or otherwise facilitating terrorist activities or committing 

related offenses. We have also prosecuted Palestine terrorists who 

engaged in attacks that killed or injured Americans outside of 

Israel. Now to be sure, these cases do not involve any of the recent 

attacks within Israel, but they do evidence the Department’s commitment to investigating and prosecuting terrorist activities by Palestinian terror groups where possible. 

The Department of Justice also has a number of open investigations regarding overseas terrorist attacks committed in Israel and 

in other countries that have harmed Americans. 

While I cannot discuss these investigations today or the facts of 

specific cases, it’s important to note that the absence of public 

charges associated with a particular overseas attack does not mean 

that there are no charges or that no such charges will be brought. 

A successful U.S. prosecution can occur and has occurred many 

years after an attack, and after an individual is released from a 

foreign prison. Of course, a U.S. prosecution is not the only way a 

terrorist can be brought to justice, nor is it the only means by 

which to protect our national security. Often, a foreign prosecution 

is the best or only available option. And if so, we work with foreign 

authorities to support such prosecutions as necessary. 

Israeli authorities have successfully investigated and prosecuted 

many individuals in connection with terrorist attacks that have 

harmed Americans. Some of these terrorists have been sentenced 

to multiple life sentences or extensive jail time in Israeli prisons. 

Sometimes Israeli authorities have pursued a military response, 

rather than, or in addition to, a prosecution, and the terrorists 

have been killed. It is to be expected that Israel will ordinarily take 

the lead in investigating and prosecuting terrorist attacks against 

its nationals that occur on its territory, just as we do here in the 

United States and as many other countries do. 

The Department of Justice has provided support and assistance 

to scores of Americans victimized by terrorism in Israel in cases investigated and prosecuted by Israeli authorities. OVT provides information to victims about their rights in the Israeli criminal and 

military justice systems and the charges, hearing dates, verdicts, 

and sentences in such cases. We have provided financial and 

logistical support for victims living in the United States to travel 

to Israel to attend court proceedings. 

Our staff has also accompanied victims to court in Israel to assist 

them in their participation. We also coordinate a program that has 

enabled U.S. victims of attacks in Israeli to obtain reimbursement 

for out-of-pocket expenses associated with the attacks. 


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Now the fact that foreign governments most often prosecute terrorist activities that occur in their countries does not mean the Department of Justice does not also pursue such cases. We do and we 

have successfully done so many times. But there are often significant impediments to bringing prosecutions in the United States for 

attacks that occur overseas. These obstacles include obtaining necessary cooperation from foreign governments, gathering evidence 

overseas that would be admissible in U.S. court, and apprehending 

and extraditing defendants. I would be happy to discuss some of 

these challenges that we may confront in these cases today. 

In closing, I can certainly understand the frustration of some of 

the families that the Department of Justice has not prosecuted 

more cases involving terrorist attacks against Americans in Israel. 

And we certainly share the concern about Israel’s recent releases 

of the prisoners who harmed Americans, a step the United States 

urged Israel not to take. The Department is committed to making 

every effort to bring appropriate charges against those released 

prisoners who are responsible for attacks in Israel that included 

American victims. So I’ll stop there. And I look forward to your 

questions. 

Mr. DESANTIS. I thank the gentleman. 

The chair now recognizes Ms. Singer. You’re up for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF SARRI SINGER 

Ms. SINGER. Thank you. Chairman DeSantis, Ranking Member 

Lynch, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for 

inviting me to testify today and share with you my personal story, 

which is a story of thousands of Americans, people living in Israel 

and around the globe who have felt the brutal impact of Islamic 

terrorism. 

My name is Sarri Singer. I’m the founder and director of 

Strength to Strength, and I’m the daughter of New Jersey State 

Senator, Robert Singer. I was taught that the little things in life 

make the biggest difference, but I never understood the impact of 

the most minute details; a missed bus, seconds shaved off a marathon, a seat change, even a blink of an eye. 

I sit before you today as a survivor of a terrorist attack because 

of a series of split-second decisions that left 16 people dead and 

many others injured, including myself. When a terrorist attack occurs, the smallest details determine the outcome of everyone within 

range, and it’s those stated moments that haunt victims for the 

rest of their lives. 

September 11, 2001 was a turning point for me. I worked near 

the World Trade Center, but overslept that morning. While my colleagues are running for their lives, I was uptown watching the 

Towers burn and the murder of thousands of Americans on television. Within 3 months, I quit my job and moved to Israel and volunteered with organizations assisting victims of terrorism. 

My personal 9/11 came on June 11, 2003, the day I boarded bus 

number 14 in Jerusalem, and barely escaped with my life. It is now 

12–1/2 years since that horrific attack, and the memories are still 

fresh in my mind. When I close my eyes, I am brought back to that 

day and shudder as my mind wanders into the alternate endings, 

each scenario increasingly terrifying. I was meeting a friend for 


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dinner and boarded the bus. I chose an empty seat by the window. 

I always preferred the aisle seat, but that day I didn’t and I lived. 

The woman in the aisle seat next to me did not. 

I remember the sounds of crushing metals and the shock waves 

as the explosion tore through the bus. I remember shutting my 

eyes, an instinct which saved my sight. I remember the moment of 

silence that followed the blast, a silence so frightening, the silence 

of those who were dead in every seat around me. I screamed. I 

screamed so loud that a stranger who had heard the blast from 

three blocks away ran toward the mangled burning bus and pulled 

me out. 

I will never forget the old woman who held me as I was burned, 

bleeding, and frightened. I will never forget the kindness and love 

that was shown to me by those I had known my entire life and by 

those whom I had never met. 

My injuries were extensive, shrapnel went through my left shoulder, breaking my clavicle bone. Both my eardrums were blown from 

the impact of the blast. My hair was burned, my face was bruised, 

my legs badly cut, and I have shrapnel in my mouth that is inoperable that will remain with me the rest of my life. Days after the 

attack, I was told that the terrorist was two people away from me, 

and all those seated and standing around me were killed on impact. A busload of innocent civilians boarded the bus that day, and 

a suicide bomber injured over 100 of us and murdered 16 innocent 

people, including American citizen Alan Beer, originally from 

Cleveland, Ohio. 

An attack happens in an instant, but the impact lasts a lifetime. 

I established the organization Strength to Strength to create a support environment for victims, both survivors and bereaved family 

members. We are part of a global network bringing victims of terrorism together, working with organizations in various countries 

coming from different backgrounds and religions. 

It’s difficult to find anything positive or any semblance of meaning in an act of terror. The act of maiming or murdering another 

person to support a political or religious agenda is not one that I 

will ever understand. We must do everything to make sure no more 

lives are ruined by terror, and we must remember that victims 

need support from their family, friends, community, and especially 

their government. 

While the physical injures I endured were difficult, nothing compares to long-term psychological impact. Finding justice is something that is vital in dealing with the long-term impact of what I 

and others have been through. In 2004, Congress passed the Koby 

Mandell Act, which funded a special office within the U.S. Department of Justice to advocate on behalf of American victims of terrorism and tasked them with not only helping families with various 

expenses resulting from terrorist attacks, but to actively investigate those crimes and help bring the perpetrators to justice. 

While the office has been responsive in helping families with the 

former, and the civil servants who work at the Office of Justice for 

Victims of Overseas Terrorism undoubtedly have good intentions, 

Congress’ hope that the Department of Justice would take an active role in investigating, extraditing, and prosecuting terrorists 

who kill Americans overseas has come up against a harsh reality. 


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Since Congress passed the Koby Mandell Act, the only serious 

counterterrorism effort I see relating to my terrorist attack and 

dozens like it has come from two private civil suits I joined against 

Arab Bank of Jordan, and National Westminster Bank in Britain. 

The case brought against Arab Bank led directly to a regulatory investigation by the U.S. Treasury Department of Arab Bank’s New 

York branch, and culminated in a jury verdict in 2014, finding the 

bank liable for 24 Hamas terrorist attacks, including the terrorist 

attack that injured me. 

The case against Nat West Bank is still pending, but it already 

has resulted in the bank closing the accounts of a U.S. specially 

designated global terrorist, Interpal, whose accounts remain active 

for years, despite U.S. diplomatic efforts. 

I don’t expect perfect justice, and I fully realize that the Federal 

Government cannot bring every terrorist to justice, but the government’s track records in extraditing or even seeking extradition of 

Palestinian terrorists who have murdered American citizens is nonexistent. 

One example is Ahmed Mustafa Saleh Hamed, part of a Hamas 

cell that murdered American Howard Goldstein in June 2003, who 

was sentenced to seven life sentences by Israel. He was released 

from the prisoner—from prison as part of the Gilad Shalit prisoner 

exchange. He has since been linked by Israeli authorities to a fatal 

June 29, 2015, attack in Israel. 

I love my country. America has always been a great country that 

has created a safe haven for citizens and refugees. I grew up believing that my country would be there for me and protect me no 

matter where I was in the world. These last years have left me 

feeling let down, and I want to believe, again, the way I always did 

that my country is protecting me and not the people who sent a 

teenager, strapped up with a bomb to blow me up. 

Please, for all of us who have had our lives disrupted, restore our 

faith that our government is on our side. In closing, thank you, 

Chairman DeSantis, for making this hearing a priority and being 

a voice for so many American victims of Palestinian terrorism. 

Thank you for standing up for us and making sure that we know 

we’re not alone and that we’re not forgotten. Thank you. 

[Prepared statement of Ms. Singer follows:] 


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Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you. 

Mr. Schwartz, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF PETER SCHWARTZ 

Mr. SCHWARTZ. Thank you, Chairman DeSantis, Ranking Member Lynch, and members of the subcommittee, for holding this 

hearing and for allowing me to testify. 

My name is Peter Schwartz, and I am the proud uncle of Ezra 

Schwartz of Sharon, Massachusetts. Ezra was a sweet and fun-loving kid. He was a great skier and baseball player and an avid football fan. He had a sharp mind, was a strong chess player and enjoyed reading. He had a special talent for engaging those on the 

margins or in need. The nervous young camper, the mediocre athlete at the baseball tryout, the elderly woman carrying groceries. 

Ezra graduated high school and had been accepted to the business 

program at Rutgers, which he was excited to attend this fall. But 

he decided to take a gap year in Israel in a program that mixed 

learning with community service. 

He was popular and happy, enjoying his year, doing good work, 

and looking forward to college. On November 19, 2015, just over 2 

months ago, Ezra and some friends went to do some volunteer 

work on a memorial park that ironically honored the memories of 

three boys who were kidnapped and killed by a Palestinian terrorist the year before. One of whom, Naftali Frankel, was an American citizen. The van that Ezra and his friends were in was caught 

in rush-hour traffic at the Gush Etzion Junction just south of Jerusalem. And at some point, Ezra put his head down against the window and went to sleep. 

Muhammed Abd Al-Basset Kharoub, a 21-year-old Palestinian 

from a small West Bank village, spent at least two years planning 

and preparing to kill as many Jews as possible. With the assistance 

of his brothers, and at least one friend, Kharoub purchased two 

guns and many rounds of ammunition for over $10,000. Kharoub 

chose his own birthday, November 19th, to go searching for a place 

with enough Jews to kill. 

When he arrived at the Gush Etzion traffic jam in which Ezra 

and his friends were stuck, he took out his gun and started spraying the waiting cars with bullets, killing three people, including 

Ezra, before being apprehended. Ezra was shot in the head, and in 

an instant, all of the beautiful things that he was and everything 

that he would ever become was gone forever. It is simply not possible to describe the magnitude of this loss and the impact it has 

had on our family without sounding cliche, but it is excruciating 

and profound and overwhelming and visceral. His absence assaults 

you from every direction: From his sweet face staring at you from 

the family photos on the wall, from his name on the label of the 

skiing and sporting equipment sitting unused in the closet, from 

his adorable first grade artwork, from the empty seat at the table, 

from the birthday text that never arrives, and even from the happy 

milestones of his friends and peers, whose future graduations and 

weddings will be tinged with a little bit of sadness knowing that 

Ezra won’t be there to share them, and won’t have similar milestones of his own, but will be forever frozen at 18 years old. All of 


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us in the family now have an awful highlight reel playing over and 

over in our heads. 

For me, it includes getting the news from my brother, telling my 

son that his cousin is dead, telling my parents that their grandson 

is dead, seeing Ezra’s siblings and parents around his coffin, and 

seeing my brother, who I love so dearly and unconditionally, in unimaginable pain that I can never comfort. And then you remember 

that all this terrible pain and loss is not the result of some tragic 

accident or unfortunate illness, but rather, it was a deliberate and 

premeditated act by someone who dreamed of causing this suffering. 

Our family has tried to focus on Ezra’s wonderful but all-too brief 

life, and has a void awaiting the surrounding politics, but there’s 

nothing political or controversial about saying that the deliberate 

killing of innocent civilians for ideological, political, or religious 

reason is abhorrent and inhuman, and it is just as wrong in Israel 

or in Gush Etzion, as it is in Paris or Mali or London or lower 

Manhattan. There is no context or explanation that makes Ezra’s 

murder or Palestine terrorism any bit less repugnant than any 

other terrorism in any other place, and there is no reason that it 

should warrant any less condemnation or reaction from every civilized citizen or country on earth. In fact, the need for a strong U.S. 

response to terrorism in Israel is even greater, considering how 

many Americans live, study, and travel there, that it is such a frequent, and now literally daily target of terrorists, and that it is our 

strongest ally in the Middle East, and the only one with which we 

share fundamental values like religious tolerance and democracy. 

Since Ezra’s death, the U.S. Government has been extremely 

supportive of our family. Condolence calls from President Obama 

and Secretary of State Kerry were deeply meaningful and appreciated and representatives of OVT, ITVERP, and the FBI have 

been in touch and sympathetic. 

That said, we are not aware of what, if any, U.S. actions have 

been undertaken to investigate this case, and we still have many 

unanswered questions about the attack that claimed Ezra’s life and 

what role our government can play in answering them. For example, how did a 21-year-old Palestinian from a small West Bank village obtain more than $10,000 to purchase firearms and ammunition? Did Kharoub receive funding from outside groups, such as 

Hamas or Islamic jihad? Will others, including Kharoub’sbrothers, 

one of whom supplied him with the car he used in the attack, be 

charged as accomplices in the case? 

It is our hope that FBI and the legal team at OVT will take an 

active interest in this case and work with their Israeli counterparts 

to answer these questions and ensure that Mr. Kharoub, his accomplices, and other terrorists who harm Americans abroad face justice, and when convicted, remain behind bars. 

Thank you for this opportunity and for all that you do to support 

and protect U.S. citizens and their families in Israel and around 

the world. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Schwartz follows:] 


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Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you, Mr. Schwartz. 

Mr. Roth, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF ARNOLD ROTH 

Mr. ROTH. Chairman DeSantis, Ranking Member Lynch, distinguished members of the committee, and staff of the committee, I 

admire the ability you have to call an event like this and to project 

the message that things can be done. It is the antithesis of the feelings that people like me, people who are the parents of a child who 

has been murdered, or the partner of a loved one whose life has 

been stolen from us filled, because nothing is more disempowering 

and shattering and silencing than being the survivor of an act of 

terrorism directed at people who you love. I was reminded at just 

how that power works driving here. I am not a frequent visitor to 

Washington, but I was in a cab that went through the Mall, and 

we passed a memorial. It’s a memorial, as it happens, to World 

War II, but it makes material and concrete the reality that behind 

all of those numbers and those ciphers and those tombstones, they 

were lives and people. It’s a sense that has been cheated from us. 

If terrorism has any overriding goal, it is to depersonalize and 

to anonymize, and to turn into statistics both the victims and the 

people who lived with and loved those victims. 

And I appreciate the opportunity that this hearing presents to 

push back and to say what is on the minds of victims like me. 

There are thousands of us. We seek, by every possible means, to 

do something that is so difficult to explain that I can only throw 

the words at you, to reassert the humanity of the people whose 

lives have been stolen by the cruel terrorists. In this case, my 

daughter, Malki. I’m not going to spend any time here telling you 

what a wonderful life she lived, and what a beautiful person she 

was, and how much good she brought into the world and how 

empty and silent is the void that she left behind her. 

But I am going to say that having stolen that life, the terrorists 

have left us, the families and the loved ones, no choice but to do 

everything we possibly can to associate the memory of that wonderful life with things that are good. And I’m struck by the reality, as 

I look around the other victims, other victims’ families in Israel 

where I live, how energetically they pursue the doing of good 

things, perhaps the erection of a shelf for books, perhaps a shelter 

at a bus stop, perhaps a foundation like the one that my wife and 

I set up that helps people who have a disabled child. 

You see actions like this are going on all the time. They are not 

intended to draw attention to the people that are living them; they 

are intended to draw attention to the lives that are being so unfairly stolen. And with the image of Malki, my daughter, who was 

fifteen, right before my eyes, as I say these words to you, I realize 

that I want you to know that I am never going to be, again, able 

to talk about terrorism in the way perhaps that others can. I see 

things; my wife sees things; my children see things that somehow 

the people who report about terrorism and the people who prosecute the terrorists probably never see. There are resonances and 

absences and failures to do things that choke us. 


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I don’t remember thinking those thoughts until I had to wake up 

one morning and see my daughter’s slippers next to the bed that 

she was never going to be sleeping in again. 

When I put together my written submission, which I hope will 

be read, I felt that I needed to speak about practical things that 

this committee could do. And they came down to wanting you to 

be aware of the incitement and the enablement, two key words 

which may be not self-evident, the incitement that goes on day 

after day to anyone who has eyes and ears, by the Palestine Arab 

society with which we are striving to live in peace, and which, to 

a great extent, is folded into the society in which I and my family 

live. 

The incitement that comes from the very highest levels of that 

society, right down to ordinary Tweets emanating from people who 

live in that society. Their hatred, the urging on to more and bigger 

and better acts of terrorism, is simply unbearable. And as long as 

it goes on, and it does go on, we’re wasting our time and our prayers in hoping that these problems will go away, they will not go 

away. 

Likewise, the enablement. Enablement has to do with money, 

and money is where Washington comes into the picture. When a 

person is sentenced to prison, and then comes out after, perhaps, 

many years, life is pretty difficult. You have problems re-emerging 

into society and you probably don’t have any money. It’s hard for 

me to convey to you how untrue that is in the case of thousands 

of Palestinian Arab-convicted terrorists. Of course, I’m thinking 

about the people, the gang who were involved in the murder of my 

daughter. 

And I’m also thinking, in particular, of the engineer of the massacre, who was a young woman, who has been mentioned here in 

the chairman’s thoughtful introductory words. 

These people have come out with more money than they have 

ever had in their lives. They have come out with a more exalted 

position in society than they ever dreamed of. If any of us imagine 

that the process that produces those results is conducive to bringing an end to this death cult, this engagement with murder has a 

redemptive act, then think more carefully. 

In relation to the work that’s been done by the DOJ, I’ve made 

the point several times in my written remarks that there has been 

unfailing courtesy, responsiveness, and attention, but very little in 

the way of results. I could make the statement stronger, but I 

choose not to. 

This is not a human material problem; this is not a goodwill 

problem, but there is a problem. It’s clear that there’s a problem. 

It’s not clear where the problem is coming from. If this committee 

does anything, and I know that there is a desire to do something, 

let it be to focus on where the problem is. 

Should the OVT or the DOJ address these issues of incitement 

and enablement and the particularly bizarre way in which the 

word ‘‘terrorism’’ has been removed from the lexicon of many of the 

people engaged in looking at terrorism, trying to stop terrorism. 

Euphemisms are being used as if they were machine guns, but they 

are not machine guns, but they do make people lose focus. In some 

ways, they are the real enemy here. 


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Terror is now a legitimate career option for hundreds of thousands of people living on the other side of the boundary from where 

I live. Unless we engage with that issue and recognize where it’s 

brought us, not much is going to happen. I don’t know why the 

kingdom of Jordan continues to appear at the very top of the State 

Department’s survey on terrorism as America’s close ally. I don’t 

know why that is. I don’t know why people who haven’t lost a child 

don’t see how far away, which is not very far away, everybody here, 

in my country, in Australia, in New Zealand, wherever, are from 

experiencing the kind of unthinkable loss that has turned my family’s life upside down. 

I am sorry that I have gone on beyond the time. I want to mention very briefly something that President Obama said last week 

on the day that this meeting was supposed to take place, on the 

27th of January. He did something that was startling to me. He 

quoted a Hebrew expression, which is, of course, is taken from the 

Bible. In the course of speaking at the Israeli Embassy on Holocaust Memorial Day, he used the expression, Tzedek, Tzedek, 

Tirdorf. Three words, Tzedek, Tzedek, Tirdorf. ‘‘Tzedek’’ is the Hebrew word for justice. It’s also the Hebrew word for righteousness. 

And it’s repeated twice in that sentence in Deuteronomy 16. 

Tzedek, justice, cannot be done in a vacuum. Justice requires it 

to be done in a righteous fashion, doing it right is how we ensure 

that all of us, not just the victims, but all of us can continue to live 

and exist as coherent and constructive communities and societies. 

I can’t explain why the OVT’s record is what it is, but I do urge 

everyone, including the key people inside the OVT, to look carefully, look carefully into their hearts to see whether justice is being 

done and whether it’s justice, justice, as the biblical phrase says, 

justice, justice, thou shall pursue. Thank you very much. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Roth follows:] 


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Mr. DESANTIS. Well, I thank the gentleman and I think the witness statements were excellent. I really appreciate you guys coming 

here, and I think that anybody watching this, you know, I think 

it was very, very powerful, and we appreciate it. 

Mr. Wiegmann, the committee has counted that since ’93, at 

least 64 Americans have been killed, as well as two unborn children, and 91 have been wounded by terrorists in Israel in disputed 

territories. 

How many terrorists who have killed or wounded Americans in 

Israel or disputed territories has the United States indicted, extradited, or prosecuted during this time period? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I think the answer is—is none. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Okay. How many terrorists who have killed or 

wounded Americans anywhere else overseas has the United States 

indicted, extradited, or prosecuted? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I don’t have an exact figure for you. 

Mr. DESANTIS. But it would be a decent size number, though, 

correct? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. It would be a significant number, yes. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Okay. Does the DOJ plan to prosecute any of the 

terrorism cases committed by Palestinian terrorism and Israel in 

the disputed territories? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So we have a number of open investigations. I 

can’t comment further on the status of the investigations. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Do you know how many, though? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I can’t give you that number. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Why not? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I don’t have the number, and I don’t think we 

want to comment exactly, because the more we say about the number of investigations we have, the more we tell the bad guys who 

we are trying to get. 

Mr. DESANTIS. I get the ongoing investigation. I think we would 

like a sense of whether this is a substantial effort or not. And so, 

you know, maybe you don’t give us an exact number, but we want 

to know that progress is being made. 

In your opening statement, you said that these prosecutions, 

when Americans are killed by terrorists overseas, including in 

Israel, that that was the highest priority, and that there should be 

no stone left unturned. And I understand when you’re talking 

about foreign jurisdictions, and you alluded to some of the issues 

that arise, and I think that point is well taken. But when it’s zero 

for 64, I think you see some people, who have been affected negatively, wonder, you know, what exactly is the Department doing 

within this particular aspect of terrorism that occurs in Israel? 

And let me ask you, particularly: Mr. Roth alluded to engineer 

of the terrorist attack that killed his daughter. This is an individual who really is, since being released in a prisoner exchange, 

has been open and notorious, is on TV with Hamas. Is that something that the Department is monitoring? And is there any plans 

to try to seek justice in that case? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So let me address that. I think the Tamimi case 

is the case you’re referring to. And she, along with two others, I 

think, were prosecuted originally by the Israelis. As I said in my 

opening statement, most of the cases that occur in Israel are prosVerDate Sep 11 2014 10:13 Jan 10, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\20555.TXT APRIL

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ecuted in the Israeli system. And so she was sentenced to a long 

prison term. She was then released in 2011 in conjunction with the 

Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange. This is something that we opposed. 

We advised the Israeli Government that we opposed this release, 

but they did that anyway. They are a sovereign government. We 

couldn’t block that. 

Since that time, we have made clear that we intend to pursue 

any available charge that we can, either in this case and all the 

other cases involving released prisoners. That was really a kind of 

game changer for us, the prisoner release, and we are really concerned about all of those folks that have American victims on their 

hands—— 

Mr. DESANTIS. I think so. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. —so absolutely we are pursuing all those cases, 

including that one. 

Mr. DESANTIS. And I appreciate that. Senator Inhofe, in 2012, 

wrote and requested the status, and basically, we were in the same 

holding pattern. So I appreciate those words. But I think, as Mr. 

Roth said, when OVT was created, the idea was you’re going to 

help the victims and then hopefully, facilitate within the DOJ that 

these prosecutions are happening, and they are not. 

Now, it’s- been alleged that the reason that DOJ does not prosecute the Palestinian terrorists who harm Americans in Israel, the 

disputed territories, is that the Department of Justice is concerned 

that such prosecutions will harm efforts to promote the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, or that it will actually harm the Palestinian 

Authority. 

So let me ask you straight up, is that a consideration the Department of Justice? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I can assure that is obsoletely not the case. 

Mr. DESANTIS. And has the State Department ever made arguments to the Department of Justice to handle some of the Palestinian terrorism cases differently than you may normally handle, 

say, a terrorism case in Asia? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Absolutely not. The State Department has nothing to say about cases that we bring, whether in Palestinian territories related to these cases or not. So it absolutely makes zero difference to us whether the terrorist attack occurred in Israel, 

whether it’s a Palestinian terrorist group, whether it’s ISIL, Al 

Qaeda, they are all the same to us. We want to protect Americans 

regardless of who they are victimized by. 

Mr. DESANTIS. So you mentioned the 2011 prisoner releases that 

included terrorists who harmed Americans. Now, when that was 

undertaken, you said the administration opposed it. Did the State 

Department work with Israel to maybe seek extradition of any of 

the people would were being released against our wishes? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So, again, I can’t comment on any particular investigation. But what I can say is that since that prisoner release, 

we have kind of redoubled our efforts on those investigations. We 

are working really hard with the Israelis. We have gotten increased 

cooperation from the Israeli Government since those releases. And 

to the extent that we can bring charges in any of those cases, we 

intend to do so. 


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Again, I would caution the committee not to assume that because, as I said in my opening statement, that we don’t have any 

public charges doesn’t necessarily—— 

Mr. DESANTIS. No, I don’t think we do assume that. I just think 

it has been a long—you know, this has been something that’s been 

going on for a long time. And I think there’s a lot of concern, understandable concern, about the lack of results. And so that is really what we are focused on is the results. 

Now, some have said that if you have a situation where a terrorist who kills Americans in Israel is prosecuted by the Israelis, 

then they are later released in a prisoner exchange or release, that 

somehow if we were to prosecute them here, that would trigger 

double jeopardy. Is that the Department’s position? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Absolutely not. We have prosecuted people who 

have been released from prison before. Sometimes it takes us a 

while. One prominent case is an older case, actually a case involving a Palestinian terrorist who hijacked an airliner in Pakistan. He 

spent, I think, 8 to 10 years in a Pakistani prison. Then he was 

released, made his way to another country, and was, I think, more, 

10, 12, 15 years later that we were able finally to apprehend the 

person, prosecuted him in 2004, and he’s got a 60-year sentence 

today. 

So we have prosecuted people who have been released from prison before, and certainly, nothing in the Israeli prison release would 

be any different. We fully intend to pursue charges in any of those 

cases if we can. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Let me just conclude by asking, and I realize, I 

mean, you are here representing the Department, the Koby 

Mandell and the OVT. This was all over 10 years ago. We’ve had 

different administrations, different parties, we’ve had Congress, 

different parties, and so it’s been a— it’s not that there’s one person to blame, but when you see that zero cases have been brought, 

and you see the victims of terrorism, their families seeking justice, 

do you understand the frustration without seeing any tangible results, even understanding that some of these cases are very difficult? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I certainly understand the impatience and frustrations. The only thing I can say are the reasons are, in some of 

those 64 cases they talked about, there were Israeli prosecutions, 

and Israel is a very capable and effective and aggressive prosecution regime, so a lot of those cases, prosecutions were brought by 

the Israelis, and that’s the same as we would do here. I mean, we 

have had foreign nationals injured in terrorist attacks here, whether it’s 9/11 attacks, or the Boston Marathon bombing. There were 

foreign nationals in both of those attacks who were killed and injured. Those attacks are going to be prosecuted in the United 

States. 

The foreign governments, we try to work with them, give them 

information and so forth about the case, but the same is true in 

Israel. The Paris bombing was prosecuted, or will be pursued, investigated by the French, because it is on their territory. There was 

an American killed in that attack. So I totally get it. I understand 

the frustration and impatience of the victims, but, in general, those 

terrorism cases around the world are prosecuted where they occur. 


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That doesn’t mean that we don’t try to bring extraterritorial cases 

when we can, but there are some really tough issues in bringing 

these cases. As I mentioned in my opening, we have to have the 

cooperation—— 

Mr. DESANTIS. I appreciate all that, but, you know, the tough 

issues, you have to confront this. When you say leave no stone 

unturned, that means you have to deal with them head on. So I 

appreciate you being here. I’ve gone over, and so let me recognize 

the ranking member, Mr. Lynch. 

Mr. LYNCH. I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony. Indeed, heartbreaking and very, very powerful. I want to go through, 

Mr. Wiegmann, the procedure that has to be followed. I also serve 

as the top Democrat on the Task Force on Terrorism Financing, so 

I spent a lot of time in the Middle East, in Pakistan, a lot of time 

in Israel, a fair amount of time. I just came back last week from 

Lebanon, the Syrian border, Turkey, Jordan. And part of our efforts there are to, on the terrorist financing pieces, to take the 

power away from these terrorist groups to try to deny them the resources that they use to perpetrate these terrorist acts, and to deny 

them access to the legitimate financial system. 

I’m also very familiar with the previous terrorist attacks, Khobar 

Towers, Nairobi, Dara Salaam, the multiple attacks in Karachi, 

Pakistan, and Islamabad, obviously several attacks in Beirut. 

Mr. Wiegmann, if there is an attack in a foreign country on U.S. 

citizens—I think you’ve said this before—in the first instance, the 

prosecution is solely—let’s back up a little bit. In all of those cases 

that I just mentioned, to my knowledge, it was the FBI that goes 

in first. Is that correct? Are they the lead agency for the United 

States? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. For the United States they are, but obviously if 

it’s an attack overseas, the real leader is the government of the 

place—— 

Mr. LYNCH. No, no, I realize that. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. The FBI, yes. 

Mr. LYNCH. The lead agency for us? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Yes, absolutely. 

Mr. LYNCH. And in the first instance, our role in terms of assisting any prosecution by the host country, and as you said, the 

Israelis handle it. The Lebanese handle it. The Kenyans handle it. 

It is an investigation that is by the host country, and we’re allowed 

to assist. Is that how it normally goes? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Yes. In many cases, we do provide assistance if 

we have information that is relevant to the attack or we can provide, we sometimes are helping with the victims actually provide 

information what they have on the attacks. 

So, yes, there’s ways that we can assist, and we do. Sometimes 

it’s just helping them in their own investigative techniques, so 

there’s a lot of cases in which we provide support. The other more 

capable governments, it’s less likely that we would provide assistance, because they’re already quite capable on their own. So it really depends on the country. 

Mr. LYNCH. Okay. Are there any opportunities for us to have 

shared prosecution agreements or something like that, or a treaty 

in place where we can actually, you know, get in initially with the 


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investigation and sort of expedite and enhance the prosecutions in 

foreign countries? Do we have anything like that? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. It really depends on the country and the facts 

of the case. There’s some cases, let’s say an African country. You 

mentioned Kenya and Uganda, I know. There are cases where they 

really need our help. They’re not used to doing complex counterterrorism classifications. We send FBI teams in very early, and prosecutors as well, to help investigate the case, and we’re there at a 

very early stage. In contrast in another case, let’s say it’s an attack 

in France, they already have a very sophisticated cadre of investigators and prosecutors. We typically would provide information, 

but, say, electronic information on accounts that terrorists may 

have been using or things like that, and we provide assistance, but 

it’s not the same level of support that we provide in a less developed country. 

Mr. LYNCH. How—and I know this is probably country-specific, 

but what is the experience that you’ve had in terms of getting cooperation from some of the host countries where an attack has occurred involving a U.S. citizen? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So, again, it’s really all over the map. Some 

countries really welcome our cooperation and ask for it. Other 

countries are not as cooperative and won’t give us information, 

won’t allow us in on the ground, won’t allow us to go in and interview witnesses or do anything like that, so it really runs the 

gamut. 

Mr. LYNCH. Mr. Schwartz’ testimony highlights the balance of 

understanding the sensitive nature of investigations and intelligence gathering on the one hand, but also on the other, the victims and families deserve answers to the questions, so you can see 

how this is tremendously frustrating to families in this case, and 

also all those who are similarly situated, and there are hundreds. 

I’d like to get your comment on it, particularly given that your division, the National Security Division, not only oversees OVT, but 

also is more generally responsible for enhancing law enforcement 

and intelligence efforts to combat international terrorism. How do 

we divide those priorities in terms of trying to inform the families, 

but also dealing with maybe sensitive issues with the host countries? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So we have an obligation, and it’s our mission 

anyway to give the families as much information as possible about 

the status of the investigations to the extent we can do so without 

interfering with or impeding those investigations. So that’s one of 

the main functions of our office for victims, is to keep the victims 

apprised of the status of investigations. We have lots of meetings 

with victims, their families, to tell them what’s going on. There are 

limits sometimes as to how much we can say, but we say a lot more 

than we can say publicly. We can develop confidential relationships 

with the victims and can share quite a bit of information with 

them. 

We try to obtain information if it’s a case that’s being prosecuted 

overseas from the foreign government in a way the victim might 

not be able to, and share that information to the extent that we 

can as well. The victims actually have statutory rights to be informed to the extent possible, and we try to maximize that to the 


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extent that we can. There are some limits to what we can say, because we don’t want to jeopardize the case in any particular case, 

but we do try to share as much as we can. 

Mr. LYNCH. Is there anything that Congress can do? Do you feel 

that you’re inhibited, in any way, by statutory provisions that we 

have put in place that could be mitigated in order to help you be 

more cooperative with victims’ families? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I don’t think so. I feel like our office does, we 

can always use more resources. We have a small office, so there’s 

always more that could be done in theory, but I don’t think there 

are any legal prohibitions on our relationship with the victims. 

Mr. LYNCH. My time is expired, and I yield back. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The gentleman yields back. The chair notes the 

presence of the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Meadows, a 

member of the full committee, and without objection, Mr. Meadows 

is welcome to fully participate in today’s hearing. Without objection, it’s so ordered. And that being done, the chair now recognizes 

the gentleman from North Carolina for 5 minutes. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Mr. Chairman, I want to say thank you for holding this hearing, and, obviously, it is critical, and it’s the reason 

why I made it a priority to be here, not only to support your efforts, 

but I know that you have followed very closely not only the conflict 

that is going on in the Middle East and the terrorism threat, but 

fully bringing justice to the victims. And so I want to just say 

thank you. 

Mr. Wiegmann, my concern, Winston Churchill has one of my favorite quotes, and it is, ‘‘No matter how beautiful the strategy, we 

must occasionally look at the results.’’ And the results are not encouraging. In fact, when you were talking about how your office 

helps the victims, I watched people, and many of the people at your 

table were rolling their eyes and not agreeing with your premise 

on helping and keeping them informed. 

So I guess one of the questions I have for you is I know there 

are a number of services that are out there in terms of helping victims’ families, whether it’s travel or counseling or any of those 

things. Are those all available to victims’ families? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I know one program that we operate is called 

the International Terrorism Victims Expense Reimbursement Program, so that’s a program to reimburse families for—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. But there’s multiple agencies. You kind of become 

the point of contact for these families. So, Mr. Schwartz, have they 

reached out to you to let you know all of those? 

Mr. SCHWARTZ. I have been in contact, and we have been contacted. Who made the initial contacts and sort of who reached out 

to who, we were fortunate to have sources of information from 

many different directions. But, you know, I would echo Mr. Roth 

that there’s been no shortage of sympathy and accessibility of resources for us. 

Mr. MEADOWS. But not a whole lot in terms of results from a 

prosecution standpoint? 

Mr. SCHWARTZ. Certainly not results, but it has been very early, 

and there’s been some effort to keep us apprised. But if there is 

any American involvement with the investigation, we’re, as yet, unaware of that. 


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Mr. MEADOWS. So, Mr. Wiegmann, let’s talk to that because my 

wife and I just recently got back from Israel. One of the most 

chilling things that I think I sat in a courtroom in Israel where six 

terrorists were being tried. They had a Hamas-paid attorney, had 

six of them in leg irons. Several were committed to ISIS. Several 

were committed to Hamas. And with pride, almost like they were 

turning in a paper on a job well done, they were smiling and joking 

with their family in the courtroom. I made a commitment at that 

particular time to say that not only do we have to bring justice, but 

we have to bring it quickly. 

And so, I guess the question I have is, knowing that there’s the 

pride of these terrorists and many of them feel like that they get 

off so easily, why are the Israelis better at bringing them to court 

than we are here in the United States? Is it a lack of resources? 

Because if it is, you need to speak up now. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I wouldn’t say it’s a lack of resources. It’s just 

they’re the ones on the ground who are, let’s say an attack occurs 

in Jerusalem; they’re the ones going to the scene. They’re collecting 

the forensic information in a way that they would do that in Israel, 

but may not be the way we would have to do it in the United 

States to ensure that they’re admitted in a U.S. court. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So they’re not coordinating with you properly. Is 

that—because, I mean, I’ll reach out to the Israeli Government if 

that’s the—— 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So the typical case that might be five or six 

Israelis are killed, and then one American is killed, and perhaps 

a Palestinian or someone from a third country, the Israelis are 

going to take the lead in that country. They’re not going to, in general, have multiple, multi-country investigations. Right at the very 

initial stage, they probably haven’t even identified the nationalities 

of the victims at stake, much less have a chance to contact the foreign governments and get them involved. 

So they’re going to, just as we would do here in the United States 

in investigating a case, the FBI is going to do the investigation. It’s 

not going to be promptly inviting in—for example, in the Boston 

Marathon bombing, there was a Chinese national that was killed. 

We’re not going to be inviting the Chinese Government in to help 

us conduct that investigation. 

So I think the Israelis do it the way that most other countries 

would do it, but they’re doing it under Israeli priorities and under 

Israeli laws that are not going to necessarily lead to us being able 

to introduce the evidence that they collect in a U.S. court. The way 

they get statements from witnesses and so forth can also be in a 

manner that we can’t use them in a U.S. court. 

So don’t get me wrong. We can overcome some of these obstacles. 

I wanted you to be aware there are particular challenges in these 

overseas cases. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So when are you going to overcome these obstacles? Because the chairman pointed out from a standpoint of the 

results, as Winston Churchill would say, is we haven’t seen a whole 

lot of them, so the point of your office is what? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Well, our office, again, to be clear, it’s to ensure 

that justice is done, whether it’s done—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. So as long as the Israelis do it, you’re fine? 


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Mr. WIEGMANN. We support all tools. We have whole programs 

at the Department of Justice that is our design to build the capacity of foreign countries to prosecute terrorists. We work with—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. So Mr. Roth shouldn’t expect any further action 

from DOJ? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I wouldn’t say that in his particular case. I’m 

just saying that if the Israelis were to sentence the attackers in 

that case to life sentences or adequate terms of imprisonment, 

that’s a way to protect our national security and ensures accountability. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Who determines what’s adequate? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Well, I don’t know. We would have to evaluate 

that, and when they get out of prison—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Who determines it? Is it Mr. Roth or is it you? 

Who determines what’s adequate? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. If they get out of prison, and we think it’s not 

enough, then we can pursue charges at that time. We have done 

so in many cases. That’s one of the things that happened in these 

release cases in 2011, which is they were released prematurely as 

part of a prisoner swap. We were not happy with that at all, and 

we are actively pursuing those cases, I can assure you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So, Mr. Chairman, you know that you have my 

full support, and I will continue to work with you as you continue 

to illuminate this particular situation. I thank you for your leadership, and I yield back. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Wiegmann, one 

of the purported rationales for the Koby Mandell Act was for OVT 

to, ‘‘determine the reasons for the absence of indictments of terrorists in some regions,’’ and obviously Israel was one of those. Has 

the DOJ actually done that and determined specific reasons why 

Israel would not be getting prosecutions while other overseas victims in other areas of the world do? Is there a memo, or does it 

outline the reasons for that? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. I’m not familiar with that. You said the reasons 

why there are no charges? 

Mr. DESANTIS. Yeah. Determine the reasons for the absence of 

indictments of terrorists in some regions, and I think this would be 

obviously one of those regions where the indictments would be 

lacking. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Of U.S. charges, you mean? 

Mr. DESANTIS. Yes. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Yes. I think the reasons would be along the lines 

that we’ve talked about, although those aren’t unique to Israel. The 

challenges that we have would be in any country, the ones I identified. It’s just that in some cases, we’re able to overcome those, and 

others not. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Ms. Singer, do you believe that OVT is doing 

what it was set out to do? 

Ms. SINGER. So I definitely have a relationship that started off 

very strong with the office. I was in touch with them very much. 

But with all due respect to Mr. Wiegmann, I never was even told 

any information about my attackers, about those that planned and 

carried out the attack. I know that the terrorist, you know, died in 

the attack, but I wasn’t told any other information until I signed 


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on to the lawsuits that I was on, the Arab Bank lawsuit and National Westminster Bank, and once I signed there, the lawyers 

were then able to tell me that the terrorists that were the masterminds of my attack were currently in jail. 

But any information that I tried to seek further from that, from 

the office, was really, there was none for me. And my biggest concern and fear is what happens when those that have carried out 

my attack are released in a swap, in a prisoner exchange, and then 

they’re just going to be left free to go to other countries. And even 

countries that we have extradition treaties with, they won’t be extradited and brought here and be put on trial for the murder of 

Americans and injured Americans, which are many, many more 

than the number 64. 

And I don’t want to preclude in saying that not only are those 

numbers, but there are families and extended families and communities that are directly impacted by those murders. Our family 

members are the ones that suffer long-term with us, especially the 

survivors, that live with those memories every day. And justice for 

us and accountability and validating what we went through is 

something that we need to see more of. 

We need to make sure that those that have carried out these attacks, if they’re being let out of jail because of an exchange, that 

their lives are not going to go back as if they’re heroes, but that 

they’re really going to be prosecuted against in this country and be 

made an example that no one should be carrying out attacks 

against Americans anywhere in the world. And I think it’s really 

important that there is more movement, and more measures taken 

to, especially with the ones that we’ve talked about from the 

Schalit deal, there are a number of those with American blood on 

their hands that could be taken and prosecuted. 

Again, for me, I’ve never received any significant information in 

this area with regard to assistance of ITVERP and other areas of 

psychological, physical. The immediate needs for a victim after an 

attack, the office is very good with, in terms of medical needs and 

reimbursement, but it’s really the justice portion of it that I have 

some issues with in terms of really wanting to find out what happened and where these people are and that they’re not going to be 

released soon. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Do you know, Mr. Wiegmann, the status we had 

the murders in Gush Etzion, I think, in November of 2015. There 

was an American that was killed. Are the Israelis currently prosecuting that case to your knowledge? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. What was the name of the case that you mentioned again? 

Mr. DESANTIS. There were a handful of people, probably mid-November of 2015. We can get you the information if you can let us. 

It was the most recent, I believe. Oh, yeah, it was Schwartz. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So, yes, the Israelis have opened a prosecution 

in that case, and brought charges in that case. I think there are 

three others; there have been seven. There’s been an uptick in violence in Israel recently, and there’s been a number of Americans 

injured or killed in those attacks. I think there are seven cases, 

and of those seven recent cases involving Americans, there are four 

that the Israelis have brought charges, and we’re in touch with, 


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have contacted the victims and their families in each of those cases 

and have offered our support and services. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Okay. Good. Mr. Roth, your testimony was great. 

You really did a good job with that. It was well done, so thank you 

for that. I think you bring up a good point. Obviously, when something like this happens, I mean, we want justice, but I think everyone would prefer that this stuff just does not happen to begin with. 

You talked about the incitement, and you talked about just the lucrative nature of terrorism in this society, and American funds are 

obviously a part of propping up the Palestinian Authority, even 

with the Unity Government with Hamas. What is your advice to 

us about how we use tax dollars with respect to the Palestinian Authority? 

Mr. ROTH. Look for the return on investment, if I could just put 

that in the simplest of terms. But I’m not very good at giving advice, certainly not in this context. I am a little bit better at asking 

questions. And I have to say the one question that is rattling 

around in my brain after hearing some of the comments that have 

been made here and focusing on the work of the OVT, what it says 

it does, what it describes as being its goals, what its highest priorities are, I’m struck by a triviality, and I mentioned it in my written submission. 

The brochure that’s handed out to families who are the clientele 

of the OVT have gone through at least two different versions, and 

you have to look very carefully to see the difference because they 

look identical. But the difference between the two is that in one of 

them, the earlier one, the first one, is a section, a significant section headed, ‘‘What are the Rights of Victims?’’ And in a later 

version, that paragraph has simply been removed. The guidelines 

haven’t changed. Nothing’s changed. But somebody somewhere— 

and as I say, all I know is to ask questions—has made the decision 

that the rights of the victims perhaps isn’t the same kind of priority now as it was then. 

Now, I’m not establishing that as a conclusion at all. I’m only 

asking questions. But as a lawyer—and I’ve practiced law as long 

as most people here in this room—I know that you can’t simplify 

the legal process without doing damage to the integrity of the process. 

The fact is, things can take time. But speaking as a client of the 

lawyers now, my family and I haven’t heard a thing for 4 years. 

I’ve learned a lot about the perpetrators of the murder of my 

daughter, but it’s come through the legal offices of Twitter, and 

Facebook, and YouTube. That’s not consistent with the self-description of the OVT. I have, and I mean this sincerely, the utmost empathy with the people doing the job, and I know how tough it is 

to be a lawyer with unreasonable demands of oversight committees 

and difficult clients, but we have seen nothing, and the nothing is 

rattling around in my brain as a question, not as a conclusion. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you. Mr. Lynch, do you have anything further? 

Mr. LYNCH. Sure. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from 

Massachusetts. 


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Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Wiegmann, the Office 

of Justice For the Victims of Overseas Terrorism, OVT, that’s in 

your department. Is that correct? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Yes, sir, that’s correct. 

Mr. LYNCH. Then we have the Office of Victims of Crime. Is that 

in your department as well? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. It’s in the Department of Justice, not in my division, but it’s in the criminal division. 

Mr. LYNCH. That’s regarding victims’ expenses, reimbursement 

programs? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. That’s correct. 

Mr. LYNCH. Then we have—the FBI has an Office of Victims Assistance straight up, right? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Correct. 

Mr. LYNCH. And that’s totally different? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. Yes. 

Mr. LYNCH. Ms. Singer, you’ve worked with dozens of Americans 

affected by overseas terrorism, and you, yourself, obviously are a 

victim of bombing in Israel. In your testimony, you said that you 

thought that many victims that you worked with have never even 

heard of OVT or its services. Is that your testimony here today? 

Ms. SINGER. Yes. 

Mr. LYNCH. You know, it seems scattered. I know these different 

agencies were created in response to different issues. But you got 

people at State. You got people with you at DOJ. Then you’ve got 

people at FBI. And, you know, you think that with all those agencies, if they were doing what they should be doing, victims and 

their families, they shouldn’t be waiting 4 years without information. Especially when, as you say, it’s out there on Twitter and 

other media platforms. 

I’m just wondering if there’s a way to consolidate this and do it 

in a way that actually serves the people. I think we’re running into 

a problem where it’s everybody’s job, so nobody’s doing it. That’s 

the problem. And I’m just wondering if we have accountability with 

one agency and it’s their job and we can hold them accountable if 

it doesn’t happen? I just think that it works in harmony with all 

of our incentives here, which is, you want to get as much information to the victims’ families as possible. Right now it seems like it’s 

three or four different agencies have this responsibility, and nobody’s really doing it to the extent that it needs to be done. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So let me just comment first that you’re absolutely right that in keeping the victims informed, and serving as 

that liaison function is job one. If we’re not doing that, we’re not 

doing our jobs, in other words, being a liaison with the victims, 

keeping them informed of the developments in their case, telling 

them as much as we can about the scope of the investigation, if 

charges are brought, keeping them apprised of the progress of the 

prosecution, telling them their rights, as Mr. Roth said. These are 

statutory mandates that Congress has created, and we have an obligation to fulfill. We needed to try to do that in every single case, 

and we work hard to do that to reach out to the victims; but if 

there’s a case where that’s not happening, then we need to correct 

that. 


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In terms of having the different offices, they really do perform 

different functions. OVT was actually the latecomer that Congress 

created in 2005. The Office of Victims’ Assistance at FBI is the 

kind of what I would analogize as the first responder. They’re the 

ones who are often the first ones to contact victims. They’re providing some of those immediate social services and things like that 

to victims to assist them. They also have a much broader mandate. 

It’s not just terrorism, so it’s any crime. They’re protecting all 

crime victims, so they have a much broader and different mandate. 

Then you have victim-witness coordinators at U.S. attorneys’ offices. I know this can be confusing, but just bear with me just a 

minute. Those folks are helping when there’s a U.S. prosecution. So 

if it’s brought in Illinois or Georgia or California, the U.S. Attorney’s office will have someone assigned to work with the victims in 

conjunction with those cases. 

So the gap that OVT fills is for these overseas cases. So how do 

we help people know their rights in Israeli or France or Brazil, or 

wherever the case may be, understand what their rights are under 

foreign law and how they can interface and help them participate 

in those proceedings and provide victim impact statements and do 

the other things that we do? 

So that’s why we have different offices, and we try to have all 

these offices work together as appropriate. 

Mr. LYNCH. Okay. I’ve exhausted my time. I yield back. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Mr. Chairman, I’ll be very brief. Mr. Wiegmann, 

I asked earlier if it was lack of funding, how can we help? So here 

is my request of you and my challenge to you. It seems curious that 

I would have two people at a particular witness table that would 

indicate that there is a failure to communicate on not only a regular basis, but they’re finding out more information, whether it’s 

a lawsuit or Twitter or Facebook, than they are from the appropriate agency. 

You just described the agencies and what they did, and I’m confused. I mean, it’s like spaghetti, and you don’t know where to start 

and where to stop, and so here’s what my request of you, is, can 

you put together a task force within DOJ that makes a commitment to all victims, not just the three that we have here today, to 

provide regular updates, to let them know what their rights are, 

to put it back in a brochure to make sure that every victim’s family 

gets something as a disclosure that says you can count on this, you 

can count on this, and you can count on this. 

And if you’re not getting that, then let your Member of Congress 

know, or let us know, or the appropriate person know. Are you willing to commit today to get that available to the hundreds of victims 

that are out there and victims’ families and make a commitment 

to this committee and the chairman and the ranking member 

today? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. That’s our mission. That’s what we should be 

doing. As I said—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. I understand that’s your mission, but let me just 

tell you, you’re failing at part of your mission, Mr. Wiegmann. And 


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so I’m asking you, are you willing to make a commitment, and if 

so, by what date can this committee count on that? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. So you’re saying to create a task force to—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. It doesn’t even have to be a task force. Just get 

it done where victims can understand what their rights are and 

what’s available to them where they can count on it so they don’t 

have to have an attorney figure out the legalese that you just went 

through. 

Mr. WIEGMANN. That’s absolutely our commitment to the victims, 

and so I can make that commitment today. We owe that to the victims, and I’m certainly happy right after this hearing, we can chat 

if you feel like you’re not getting what you need from our office. We 

can meet. We can arrange meetings for you, whatever you guys 

want because we do owe that to the victims. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I do appreciate that. But here’s what I don’t want 

to happen, is one conversation that happens because you’re feeling 

the heat today because the chairman called this particular hearing. 

What I want it to be is a report back to the chairman and say this 

is the process of how we’re going to keep all victims and their families informed and of their rights from here on out. Can you do that 

within the next 120 days? 

Mr. WIEGMANN. We can absolutely get you something on that. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The gentleman yields back. I want to thank the 

witnesses for coming. I think the testimony from our victims and 

family members was phenomenal. I think it was very, very powerful. I think it was necessary, and I think it’s going to help the Department of Justice perform better at this function. 

We face, as Americans, a global jihad, and Israel is ground zero 

for that fight. And when we have Americans visiting, studying, living in Israel, and they’re killed, they’re wounded by terrorists, 

we’re not going to forget that. We can’t forget that. And we will get 

justice. And we’ll be patient if we need to be, but we are not going 

to let justice be denied. So thank you guys for attending, and this 

hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 


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