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THE KATRINA IMPACT ON CRIME AND THE

CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IN NEW ORLEANS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, 

AND HOMELAND SECURITY

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

APRIL 10, 2007

Serial No. 110–55

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 

(II)

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan, Chairman 

HOWARD L. BERMAN, California 

RICK BOUCHER, Virginia 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia 

MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

MARTIN T. MEEHAN, Massachusetts 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

ROBERT WEXLER, Florida 

LINDA T. SA ́ NCHEZ, California 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

ADAM B. SCHIFF, California 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida 

KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota 

[Vacant] 

LAMAR SMITH, Texas 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

ELTON GALLEGLY, California 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

CHRIS CANNON, Utah 

RIC KELLER, Florida 

DARRELL ISSA, California 

MIKE PENCE, Indiana 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TOM FEENEY, Florida 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio

PERRY APELBAUM, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JOSEPH GIBSON, Minority Chief Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY

ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

MAXINE WATERS, California 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MARTIN T. MEEHAN, Massachusetts 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California

BOBBY VASSAR, Chief Counsel 

MICHAEL VOLKOV, Minority Counsel 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

APRIL 10, 2007

Page 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

The Honorable Robert C. Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security ........................................................................................................ 1

The Honorable J. Randy Forbes, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Virginia, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security .......................................................................... 2

WITNESSES 

Mayor C. Ray Nagin, City of New Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 4

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 5

The Honorable Oliver M. Thomas, Jr., President, City Council, City of New 

Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 7

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 9

Ms. Marvalene Hughes, President, Dillard University, New Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 10

The Honorable William J. Jefferson, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Louisiana 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 11

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 14

The Honorable Eddie J. Jordan, Orleans Parish District Attorney, New Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 25

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 27

Mr. Warren J. Riley, Chief of Police, New Orleans Police Department, New 

Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 29

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 32

Mr. Marlin N. Gusman, Orleans Parish Criminal Sheriff, New Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 34

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 36

The Honorable Jim Letten, United States Attorney, Eastern District of Louisiana 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 47

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 51

Mr. James Bernazzani, Special Agent in Charge, New Orleans—FBI Division 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 77

Mr. David Harper, Special Agent in Charge, New Orleans—ATF Field Division 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 78

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 80

Mr. William James Renton, Jr., Special Agent in Charge, New Orleans—

DEA Field Division 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 84

Mr. Jacques Thibodeaux, Acting Chief Deputy, U.S. Marshal, Eastern District 

of Louisiana 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 85

Page

IV

The Honorable Ernestine Gray, Judge, Orleans Parish Juvenile Court, Louisiana 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 95

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 99

Mr. Howard J. Osofsky, Chair, Louisiana State University Health Sciences 

Center, Department of Psychiatry, New Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 156

Background Information ...................................................................................... 159

Mr. John Raphael, Pastor, New Hope Baptist Church, New Orleans, LA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 179

Background Information ...................................................................................... 182

Mr. Peter Scharf, Research Professor of Criminal Justice and Executive Director, Center for Society, Law and Justice at Texas State University 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 186

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 190

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

Prepared Statement of the Honorable Bobby Jindal, a Representative in 

Congress from the State of Louisiana ................................................................ 19

APPENDIX 

Material Submitted for the Hearing Record .......................................................... 230

(1)

THE KATRINA IMPACT ON CRIME AND THE 

CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IN NEW ORLEANS 

TUESDAY, APRIL 10, 2007

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,

AND HOMELAND SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, 

Washington, DC.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., at Dillard 

University, Lawless Memorial Chapel, 2601 Gentilly Boulevard, 

New Orleans, LA 70112, the Honorable Robert C. Scott (Chairman 

of the Subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Scott, Forbes, and Gohmert. 

Staff Present: Bobby Vassar, Subcommittee Chief Counsel; Gregory Barnes, Majority Counsel; Veronica Eligan, Professional Staff 

Member; Michael Volkov, Minority Chief Counsel; and Caroline 

Lynch, Minority Counsel. 

Mr. SCOTT. Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland 

Security on the subject of ‘‘The Katrina Impact on Crime and the 

Criminal Justice System in New Orleans.’’ I’d like to express my 

gratitude for our host, President Hughes, and Dillard University 

employees and families for your generosity, hospitality and hard 

work, and for making your campus and wonderful facility available 

for us today. Last time I visited we were at the Hilton Hotel; so, 

I’m sure it’s great to be back. I know Dillard never missed a beat; 

so, it’s a pleasure to be here. And thank you for your hospitality. 

I’d also like to thank Mayor Nagin and the city of New Orleans, 

and officials and employees for the warm and receptive welcome 

that you’ve shown in the development of this hearing. 

Further, I want to acknowledge Councilman Jefferson for his invitation to come here today and the assistance he and his staff provided in making contacts and their arrangements necessary for the 

hearing to take place. Representative Jindal expressed his regret, 

but he could not rearrange his schedule to appear; but he indicated 

that he would be submitting a statement for the record. 

And being mindful that such—that much of the devastating impact of Katrina still affects the city today, I want all of New Orleans to know that your direct experience and suffering as a result 

of the worst disaster in American history is a tragedy that all 

Americans feel. The devastation and suffering have all been seared 

into our consciousness, and we are all dedicated to the complete 

2

and rapid recovery of the city to its former stature as a great and 

unique international, as well as American, treasure. 

We’re here today to look through—looking upon the effects of 

crime in the criminal justice system and what more the Federal 

Government can do to help in the subject; but we’re aware that 

help is needed in other aspects of rebuilding the city as well. For 

months we’ve been reading and hearing reports indicating that 

New Orleans is experiencing an extraordinary wave of crime, particularly violent crime. With all major cities, preventing and responding to crime is a challenge. However, it is clear that New Orleans had some unique challenges owing to the impact of Katrina 

on infrastructure, records, manpower, and other operational necessities. We know that a gallant effort is being waged by the men 

and women who have been able to stay under these most challenging circumstances, and we applaud those efforts. We also know 

that some things are being done by the Federal Government 

through its criminal justice agencies and other Federal operations 

to address some of these serious deficits. 

We want to hear from you, some of your Federal partners, and 

others engaged in assessing and rebuilding the effort to determine 

what are the continuing challenges and what is being done about 

them and what more needs to be done that the Federal Government might assist. 

We have an impressive group of witnesses with the knowledge—

with the knowledge and expertise, that we need to hear from. We 

look forward to their testimony, and are looking forward to working 

with each and every one of you as we restore this great city. It is 

now my privilege to recognize the senior Ranking Member of the 

Subcommittee, my colleague from Virginia, Congressman Randy 

Forbes, for his opening statement. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Chairman Scott, for convening this important hearing on the criminal justice system in New Orleans. I’d 

also like to thank Dillard University President Hughes for hosting 

us this morning, and welcome our distinguished guests, Mayor 

Nagin, City Council President Thomas, and Representative Jefferson. 

Restoring New Orleans for its residents and for its booming tourism industry is a priority. In the weeks and months following hurricane Katrina much of the rebuilding efforts focused on the city’s 

homes, businesses, schools, and hospitals. 

A critical but often overlooked component to restoring the city is 

its criminal justice system. It’s all too easy to forget that the city’s 

police force, jails, crime labs, and courts were also damaged or destroyed by Katrina. As cleanup efforts continue, New Orleans is 

suffering from the worst surge in violent crime in recent years. 

New Orleans struggled for years with the high rate of violent 

crime, drugs, and gang activity. 

Hurricane Katrina exacerbated these problems. Just last week, 

there were eight homicides in only a handful of days, bringing the 

total number of homicides this year to 53; this compared to 17 

homicides for the same period last year. Numerous factors contribute to this rise in crime. The return of gangs to New Orleans 

brings the return of drug trafficking and warring between rival 

gangs. Through witness intimidation and threats, many violent 

3

gang members are able to carry out their crimes with little concern 

of prosecution. 

At a time when increased police presence is critical to stemming 

the rise in violent crime, the New Orleans police force is down from 

roughly 1600 to 1200 officers who make on average about 1500 arrests every week. Even with its diminished police force, NOPD has 

created a criminal intelligence bureau to address the reoccupation 

of New Orleans by the criminal element and assigned additional 

patrols for this year’s Mardi Gras. Criminal investigations are delayed or stalled because of long delays in forensic testing. After 

Katrina essentially destroyed its crime lab, the NOPD was forced 

to rely on neighboring parishes and Federal assistance to process 

evidence. In addition, limited jail capacity and fewer prosecutors 

and public defenders have resulted in mounting caseloads in 

courts, setting little to no bail, or simply releasing defendants before they are prosecuted. Recently, the public defender’s office 

moved for the release of 42 defendants based on its own admission 

that it could no longer provide adequate counsel. 

I believe New Orleans is committed to ridding the city of violent 

crime and reforming its criminal justice system. To assist in these 

efforts, the Department of Justice announced in January that it 

provided six assistant U.S. Attorneys, six additional ATF special 

agents to work with the New Orleans Violent Crime Impact Team, 

nine additional FBI agents to supplement the New Orleans Violent 

Gangs Safe Streets Task Force, and three additional Deputy U.S. 

Marshals and investigative analysts to support the Crescent Star 

Fugitive Task Force. I’m hopeful that these additional resources 

and cooperation between Federal, State, and local law enforcement 

are successful. I look forward to hearing from today’s witnesses 

about the progress New Orleans is making to rebuild its criminal 

justice system and stop the violence and see how we move forward 

from here. I yield back my time. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Gohmert, do you want to make a statement? 

Mr. GOHMERT. No. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. We’ll now proceed with the introduction of our witnesses. We have a long list of witnesses today, 

and we’re going to try to follow the Subcommittee’s rules on timeliness so that we can hopefully complete our agenda so that people 

can catch their planes back home. Each witness’s statement will be 

made part of the record in its entirety; so, I would ask each witness 

to summarize his or her testimony in 5 minutes or less. To help 

stay within that time, we have a little timing light at the table, 

which will start off green and go to yellow when your time is almost up, and then go to red when the 5 minutes are up. 

We’ll then have four—we’ll have four separate panels of witnesses. I will introduce each panel just before that panel’s presentation. In the interest of time, these introductions will be a little 

briefer than normal; but we do have additional biographical information on the Committee’s web site. 

Our first witness today is Ray Nagin, Mayor of the city of New 

Orleans. He was first elected as mayor in 2002, and reelected in 

2006 to a second term. He holds an MBA from Tulane University. 

Our next witness will be the Honorable Oliver Thomas, President 

of the New Orleans Council. He was first elected to Council in 

4

1994, and he is in his fourth term. He received a Bachelor’s Degree 

of Science from the College of Santa Fe. 

Our host, Marvalene Hughes, President of Dillard University, 

has been president since 2005. She is the ninth president of Dillard 

and the first female to be appointed president. She earned a Ph.D. 

in Administration and Counseling from Florida State University 

and a Master’s Degree from Tuskegee University. 

Final witness on this panel will be the Honorable William Jefferson, Member of Congress. He is in his eighth term, representing 

Louisiana’s Second District. He’s a graduate of Southern University 

A&M College, has a Master’s in Taxation from Georgetown and a 

Law Degree from Harvard University. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mayor Nagin. Thank you for your hospitality. 

TESTIMONY OF MAYOR C. RAY NAGIN,

CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Mr. NAGIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the interest of time, 

I will be as brief as I can. I am Mayor C. Ray Nagin, mayor of one 

of America’s most beloved and distinctively culturally unique cities 

in America. To the Chairman, Chairman Scott, thank you for being 

here. Members of the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and 

Homeland Security of the House Committee on the Judiciary: 

Thank you again for being in New Orleans. 

This is a very critical topic for us. We’ve been working for the 

past 19-20 months to get our city back in order. We have miraculously avoided bankruptcy. And with the help of some loans from 

the Federal Government, we have been able to stand this city up 

as best we can. 

You will hear testimony today regarding the struggles that we 

have faced, particularly in the criminal justice system. You’ve read 

off some statistics that kind of encapsules what’s been going on. We 

have been working very hard. We’ve enlisted support from lots of 

different sources, key members of the criminal justice system and 

the New Orleans City Council. We all stood together and reengaged 

our focus area—efforts as it relates to trying to abate the violent 

crime that has been plaguing our city. We worked with former Louisiana Attorney General Richard Eyoub. We called in National 

Guard support, State Police support. We’re done just about everything that we could to make sure that we had the resources necessary. 

The hard-working men and women of our criminal justice system, and particularly our law enforcement agencies, have been 

working tirelessly in spite of some of their unique struggles, still 

trying to rebuild their lives after Katrina. But like many communities, we are struggling with violent crime in our community, and 

we face many challenges that could use Congress’s support. 

We face the substance abuse crisis in our community, where we 

really do not have the resources to make a dent in that, nor to deal 

with it adequately. Our education system continues to struggle 

going forward. Domestic violence is on the rise in our community 

as it relates to posttraumatic stress disorder that is affecting many 

of our citizens. And our mental health system, health care system, 

is very broken in this community and really needs some serious attention. 

5

I am asking for a couple of very specific things that Congress can 

help us with. First, on crime-fighting tools: We need about $17 million for vehicles, equipment, and recruiting strategies to support 

our crime-fighting efforts for the New Orleans Police Department. 

Secondly, our youth, we need your immediate help for this summer’s activity. We are looking for $4 million to employ 2,000 young 

people in our community, to make sure that they have something 

meaningful to do—kids who are in the at-risk-age categories, for 

summer youth employment. Fourthly, we need to—we are asking 

for support to reestablish an ex-offender’s work force development 

program, $3 million to fund comprehensive work force development 

services for 500 former offenders so that they can reestablish themselves productively back in our community. And then, finally, to 

provide some critical drug rehabilitation services; another critical 

issue in our city that we just don’t have the resources at this time, 

nor have they come from the Federal Government nor the State 

government to help us with this. We need $10 million over 3 years 

to implement a program that would provide culturally sensitive 

and appropriate drug rehabilitation and prevention. 

Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes the—the bulk of my comments, and I’ll be happy to answer any questions. And I want to 

thank you again for being in New Orleans today. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Nagin follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF C. RAY NAGIN

NEW ORLEANS, LA (April 10, 2007)—Mayor C. Ray Nagin gave opening remarks today before the start of the House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on 

Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security regarding the ‘‘Katrina Impact on Crime 

and the Criminal Justice System in New Orleans.’’

The text of his comments follows: I am C. Ray Nagin, Mayor of New Orleans, one 

of America’s most beloved and culturally distinctive cities, and a city which is facing 

the challenge of recovering and rebuilding after the worst natural and man-made 

disaster to occur in the United States of America. To Chairman Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ 

Scott and members of this Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security of the House Committee on the Judiciary: Thank you for coming to New Orleans to continue the generous support Congress has given for the rebuilding of our 

city. 

I would also like to publicly express appreciation for the dedicated and tireless 

support that we have received from the United States Department of Justice. By 

supplying federal assets and resources to assist our police department, speed the repair of our criminal justice system and initiate innovative programs, they have been 

an invaluable partner. 

You will hear testimony today regarding the struggles that we face in rebuilding 

a criminal justice system whose infrastructure was completely destroyed by Hurricane Katrina and the subsequent flooding. Our work has been unflagging, and I 

would like to outline for you the steps that we have taken to accelerate its recovery: 

Last summer, I convened a 100-day implementation team to provide recommendations for accelerating several areas of our recovery, including city services, repopulation, and the criminal justice system. The 100-day team was led by Former Louisiana Attorney General Richard Ieyoub and included many individuals who will 

testify today. Some of the accomplishments of this team were:

• Established automated intranet access to give the District Attorney and Clerk 

of Criminal District Courts immediate access to accurate records of police personnel.

• Improved subpoena delivery to police officers on the orders of Police Superintendent Warren Riley to have the NOPD Office of Compliance be responsible for the acceptance of all Criminal District Court subpoenas and for delivery to members of the department.

• Collaborated with District Attorney’s Office to secure additional Assistant 

DAs from other jurisdictions to eliminate the excessive case backlog.

6

• Reorganized physical evidence damaged during Hurricane Katrina and made 

it available for trial in June 2006.

Earlier this year, key members of the criminal justice system and the New Orleans City Council stood with me to announce a focused effort on violent crime in our 

city. Since January, with the cooperation of Orleans Parish Criminal Sheriff Marlin 

Gusman and the support of his deputies, our police department has been able to 

assign more police officers to police patrols. In addition, the department, under the 

leadership of Chief Riley, has increased the number of drug and alcohol checkpoint 

areas in the city, leading to hundreds of arrests, drug seizures and the confiscation 

of hundreds of guns. The department also has implemented the Quality of Life task 

force that is addressing concerns less immediate than life and death situations, but 

that contribute to the way that people feel about our neighborhoods. 

We are grateful for the hardworking men and women in law enforcement who, 

in the midst of their own personal losses, continue to serve on the front line to protect our citizens and our city. Last fall, I proposed and the City Council approved 

pay increases for police officers. We are currently working with Civil Service to develop a program that would provide incentives to attract former military personnel 

to become police officers in our department. 

Despite this positive movement, we continue to face many challenges. Our police 

department remains understaffed and lacks some critical equipment and supplies. 

Our officers are encountering more crime suspects and victims who suffer from substance abuse. And too many of our young people are on the road to prison or an 

early death. 

In crafting our federal legislative agenda this year, we focused on these realities 

and the fact that the criminal justice system does not exist in isolation. It is struggling to provide safety and security in a city with many problems that can lead to 

crime and violence, some of which existed before Hurricane Katrina’s widespread 

destruction exacerbated their affect:

• Like many communities in this country, we face a substance abuse crisis

• The education system, which was deeply troubled before Katrina, is rebuilding from scratch

• Domestic violence is a significant problem that triggers cycles of violence in 

homes

• Our mental health services delivery system is broken and putting even more 

strain on the police department

We are seeking the following appropriations to address some of these issues:

Crime Fighting Tools

• $17.1 million for vehicles, equipment and a recruiting strategy to support the 

crime fighting efforts of the New Orleans Police Department (NOPD) by giving them critical tools to increase their capacity and effectiveness.

Summer Jobs Initiative to Prevent Juvenile Crime

• $4 million to employ 2,000 young people from our most at-risk age categories 

in a summer jobs program that would provide healthy and constructive alternatives in their lives.

Re-establish an Ex-Offender Workforce Development Program to Prevent 

Recidivism

• $3 million to fund comprehensive workforce development services for 500 

former offenders so they can re-establish themselves productively in our community

Provide Critical Drug Rehabilitation Services

• $10 million over 3 years to implement a program that would provide culturally sensitive and appropriate drug rehabilitation and prevention, and 

would increase facility capacity. We have to combat the scourge of drugs shattering lives and destroying the fabric of our community.

Public safety has been a critical concern of our administration. We have made aggressive efforts to focus on violent crime and have specifically targeted murders. In 

increasing the presence of police officers on the street and through cooperation with 

the U.S. Attorney’s Office, U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Orleans Parish Criminal Sheriff’s Office, the District Attorney, judges and the community, we are confident that 

we have all aspects of criminal justice system working in concert. We will not give 

up until we make our community safe. 

7

Thank you again for visiting New Orleans. We look forward to your continued 

support as rebuild from an experience no other American city has ever faced.

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Thomas. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE OLIVER M. THOMAS, JR., 

PRESIDENT, CITY COUNCIL, CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Mr. THOMAS. First of all, let me thank our host Dr. Hughes and 

the Dillard family, our Congressman, the mayor; you, Chairman 

Scott, Mr. Forbes, and other Members of the Committee. Thank 

you for having me here today. It’s always special when Congress 

comes to town. It means we matter. It means New Orleans still 

matters. But it also means that there are problems here we haven’t 

solved yet. 

No one will dispute the fact that we face many issues in the city. 

We wouldn’t be here today if we didn’t. But within the plethora of 

issues, there are some that are more important than most; and we 

think that is crime and crime prevention. We know that is of the 

utmost importance. 

Now, we’ve seen some disputes over the impact of crime statistics. We’ve heard that modeled one way or another, with generous 

population assumptions, our crime is relatively stable. We’ve heard 

that modeled other ways, assuming a smaller population, that 

crime has risen drastically. But none of that matters to people who 

live here. We are tired of hearing interpretations and assumptions. 

Whatever crime we have is too much, and whatever solutions we 

are putting in place can’t be done fast enough. Those disputes—

those facts are indisputable. 

It is also a fact that government, all governments—local, State, 

and Federal—have begun to act. At the local level, the City Council, led by Councilman James Carter, has established the Crime 

Summit and a Crime Subcommittee, where community activists, 

leaders, and national experts came together to address issues and 

formulate solutions to our crime problem. 

We’ve increased our funding for police pay for officers, that we 

used—and it also increased the area to entice new recruits. We suspended residency requirements post-Katrina that would have made 

it impossible to recruit outside of our area. We’ve raised salaries 

for Assistant District Attorneys in an attempt to both recruit and 

retain legal talent. 

For the first time in recent memory, all of our leaders are on the 

same page. Police Superintendent Warren Riley and District Attorney Eddie Jordan have come together on agreements that will help 

with processing, evidence gathering, and prosecution of cases. 

Today there are dedicated task forces of prosecutors charged with 

interfacing with police officers to make sure that particular cases 

have particular contacts within both offices and to facilitate their 

movement through the system. Police officers are learning how to 

write better, more-efficient reports, and ADA’s are learning how to 

prepare officers to testify in cases. Both departments are learning 

from each other, and that’s a positive step. We are looking at models based on best practices of everything that has worked. Community cases, Broken Windows, neighborhood watch, you name it; we 

are desperately trying to find the solution. 

8

There are partnerships at the State level that have allowed the 

National Guard and State Police to help augment our law enforcement capacity in certain areas. We’re sharing a crime lab in Jefferson Parish, as we struggle to find the resources to rebuild our own. 

There are partnerships with the DEA, dedicated narcotic units, 

with the Department of Justice for extra prosecutorial ability, and 

in cases with the U.S. Attorney to move cases into Federal court 

whenever it’s possible. Everything is and should be done with both 

eyes toward making the systems that are involved work better. 

That’s some of what we’re doing, but it’s far from everything that 

needs to be done. And that’s where we—that’s where we need your 

help. We’re in desperate need of additional Federal dollars to rebuild our criminal justice system. We need our courts back, fully 

operating. We need our crime lab funded and running. We need to 

increase the number of officers on the street, and we need to help 

our community help itself. 

We need our parks reopened. We need better schools for our kids. 

We need recreational activities at night and in the summer. All of 

that, I hope you can help us with. And there might be people who 

say, ‘‘Why spend money on playgrounds when we should be building prisons?’’ Why—we’ve already done that. 

We already have one of the highest incarceration rates in the 

country, particularly among African American young men. If we 

could have arrested our way out of this problem, we would have 

done so a long time ago. 

The simple truth is—if there’s ever a simple truth to be told—

that every part of our system must work better in order for our system to work. Our schools must teach children who’ll use that 

knowledge to build careers and economic wealth; which then, in 

turn, they’ll invest in their children, and communities—which will 

build stronger communities, which will strengthen individual responsibility, which will create a stronger city and a better quality 

of life. 

But better schools without recreational activities isn’t enough. 

Because we all have kids or know kids, who were kids, and know 

that if you don’t give kids something else to do, they’ll find, in 

many cases, the wrong thing to do with the amount of time that 

they have on their hands. 

But schools and recreation without police and prosecutorial protection isn’t enough, because if we can help people feel safe, then 

they won’t—because if we can’t help people feel safe, then they 

won’t wait around for their children to help not only change the 

world, but change this community. This, too, is an indisputable—

this is an indisputable fact. 

Finally, everything I’ve mentioned here can be done and should 

be done. And the fact that we’re here, as I’ve said before, means 

that we all want it to be done because here matters and New Orleans matters. It’s a special place with an indomitable spirit. It deserves to be saved. We can save it, and we appreciate you guys 

being here to help save our community. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Thomas. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Thomas foll follows:]

9

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE OLIVER M. THOMAS, JR. 

Thank you for having me here today. It’s always special when Congress comes to 

town. It means we matter here. It means New Orleans still matters. But it also 

means that there are problems we haven’t yet solved. 

No one will dispute that we face many issues in this City. We wouldn’t be here 

today if we didn’t. But within that plethora of issues, there are some that are more 

important than most. Crime, and crime prevention, is that important. 

Now, we’ve seen some disputes over the impact of crime statistics. We’ve heard 

that, modeled one way, with generous population assumptions, our crime rate is relatively stable. We’ve heard that, modeled other ways, assuming a smaller population, crime has risen drastically. We’re tired of hearing interpretations and assumptions. Whatever crime we have is too much, and whatever solutions we’re putting in place can’t come fast enough. Those are indisputable facts. 

It is also a fact that this government, all governments, local, state, and federal, 

have begun to act. At the local level, the City Council, led by Councilman James 

Carter, established a Crime Summit, where community activists, leaders, and national experts came together to address issues and formulate solutions to our crime 

problem. We’ve increased our police budget, raising pay for officers and used that 

pay increase to entice new recruits. We suspended residency requirements that, 

post-Katrina, would have made it impossible to expand our police force. We’ve raised 

salaries for Assistant District Attorneys, in an attempt to both recruit and retain 

legal talent. 

For the first time in recent memory, all of our leaders are on the same page. Police Superintendent Warren Riley and District Attorney Eddie Jordan have come together on agreements to help with processing, evidence gathering, and prosecution 

of cases. Today, there are dedicated task forces of prosecutors charged with interfacing with police officers, to make sure that particular cases have particular contacts within both offices, to facilitate their movement through the system. Police officers are learning how to write better, more efficient reports, and ADA’s are learning how to better prepare officers to testify in cases. Both departments are learning 

from each other, and that is a positive step. We’re looking at models, based on best 

practices, of everything that’s worked. Community policing, Broken Windows, neighborhood watch. You name it, we’re looking at it. 

There are partnerships at the state level, that have allowed the National Guard 

and State Police to augment our law enforcement capacity. We’ve been sharing a 

crime lab with Jefferson Parish, as we struggle to find the funding necessary to rebuild ours. There are partnerships with the DEA, for dedicated narcotics units, with 

the DOJ for extra prosecuting capacity, with the US Attorney, to move cases into 

Federal Court when possible. Everything is, and should, be done with both eyes toward making the systems involved work better. 

That’s some of what we’re doing, but it’s far from everything that needs to be 

done, and that’s where we need your help. We are in desperate need of additional 

federal dollars to rebuild our Criminal Justice system. We need our courts back, 

fully operational. We need our crime lab funded, built, and running. We need to increase the number of officers on our streets, and we need to help our community 

help itself. 

We need our parks reopened. We need better schools for our kids. We need recreational activities at night and in the summer. All of that, I hope, you can help 

us with. And there might be people who say, ‘‘why spend money on playgrounds 

when we should be building prisons?’’ We already have one of the highest incarceration rates in the country, particularly among African-American men. If we could 

arrest our way out of this problem, we would have done it a long time ago. 

The simple truth is, if there is ever a simple truth to be told, that every part of 

our system must work better in order for our system to work. Our schools must 

teach our children, who’ll use that knowledge to build careers and economic wealth, 

with which they’ll invest in their children and communities, which will build stronger communities, which strengthens individual responsibility, which creates a stronger city, and a better quality of life. 

But better schools without recreational activities isn’t enough. Because we all 

have kids, or know kids or were kids, and know that if you don’t give kids something to do with the time they have, they’ll do things you don’t want them to be 

doing, with the time they shouldn’t have. 

But schools and recreation without police and prosecutorial protection isn’t 

enough. Because if we can’t help people feel safe now, they won’t wait around for 

their children to change the world. So this too, is indisputable fact. 

Finally, everything I’ve mentioned here can be done, and should be done. And the 

fact that we’re here, as I said before, means we all want it to be done. Because here 

10

matters. New Orleans matters. It’s a special place with an indomitable spirit. It deserves to be saved. We can save it. And that, as well, is an indisputable fact.

Mr. SCOTT. Dr. Hughes. 

TESTIMONY OF MARVALENE HUGHES, PRESIDENT,

DILLARD UNIVERSITY, NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Ms. HUGHES. Good morning, Mr. Scott and Members of the Committee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security of the Committee on the Judiciary. It is truly my pleasure to welcome you to 

New Orleans and, more specifically, to Dillard University. You’re 

right. When you were here the last time, we were living at the Hilton Hotel. But we determined that Dillard University had to be the 

anchor here because there was no life in this area. And indeed, as 

we have returned, we have noticed that others are returning as 

well. So Dillard is pleased to host this important Congressional 

forum for, like virtually all of our fellow New Orleanians, we firmly 

believe that the security of our citizens is critically, critically important to the rebuilding of this great American and international 

city. Our students, faculty, and administration are dedicated to rebuilding New Orleans as well. And we are eager to provide our expertise, vision, facilitation, and problem-solving skills and abilities 

to the challenges at hand. We offer you a world of expertise, a 

world treasure, intellectual expertise, and research. We demand 

that all of our students engage in research projects. And last year 

that meant that every student was engaged in research projects on 

all of the issues pertaining to Hurricane Katrina. 

The sustained rebuilding of New Orleans will require action and 

viable solutions from credible entities like you. I commit to you 

that Dillard University is on record and will stay on record to utilize its intellectual expertise, its research, human and social capital, to help find creative ways to approach the challenges of increased crime in the New Orleans community post-Katrina. 

As we continue our rebuilding efforts, our students, faculty and 

staff need to feel safer. They want to go about their business living 

a normal life here. Safety and security are—are a must if we are 

to attract others to take part in the rebuilding of the community 

and this great city. They provide the basic foundation that will provide the critical impetus needed to move forward. We extend our 

best wishes and hope that this hearing is successful. I know that 

I speak for every university president in this city when I ask you 

to help us. Help us to reduce crime. Help us to assure safety and 

security. Help us to attract and re-attract our students. Our enrollment is far too low to sustain our universities. And, finally, help 

us to present to the public an image that identifies this city in the 

United States and the world as a positive place to be, a place 

where our students can learn and grow, and a place where we can 

continue to attract students from all around the world. We need 

that desperately. Thank you so much for coming again. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Dr. Marvalene Hughes. 

Our colleague, Representative Jefferson. Bill. 

11

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE WILLIAM J. JEFFERSON, A 

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF LOUISIANA 

Mr. JEFFERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

It’s a pleasure to welcome you here to New Orleans again and 

to welcome those of your Subcommittee. I want to thank Dr. 

Hughes and the Mayor and Councilman Thomas for their fine remarks, and for letting me be a part of this panel with them. 

There’s a tendency for those concerned about criminal justice and 

crime prevention to seek to assess blame for the state of our criminal justice system. And while we acknowledge a responsibility on 

the part of our criminal justice officials for the return of the system 

to its functioning capacity, it’s important to remember the effect 

the flooding of our city had on our criminal justice system and the 

attendant difficulty of its recovery. As examples, the flooding of the 

basement of our criminal justice court building and of the evidence 

laboratory of the New Orleans Police Department, destroyed and 

damaged valuable records, including historical information on 

those engaged in violent criminal behavior, and evidence they currently needed to prosecute crimes. And our entire city was evacuated, and some of our most seasoned prosecutors and indigent defenders, along with hundreds of former police officers relocated to 

other cities and took other jobs. 

The stream of revenues that funds—which funds our criminal 

justice system was interrupted due to the post-storm downturn in 

business activity and the inability of home owners to pay sales and 

property taxes. Many areas are sparsely populated and harder to 

police. 

But it’s plain that the rebuilding of our city depends in large part 

on rebuilding confidence in a fair and effective criminal justice system that respects and enforces the law. 

It’s important that the Federal Government assist the city of 

New Orleans in overcoming problems with its criminal justice system. After all, it was Federal-government-designed-and-built levees, under the jurisdiction of the United States Army Corps of Engineers that broke, flooding the city and severely damaging the 

physical infrastructure and workings of the criminal justice system. 

It’s time to talk about solutions. 

Long-term solutions have been mentioned here: Schools, better 

jobs, less desperation. But we talked today about some shorter 

term ones that affect the problems. The Mayor has mentioned mental health concerns. There’s a Social Services Block Grant of 500 

to a million that hasn’t gotten here yet, that’s still in Washington. 

We need to work on that. The families and children have great 

stress in families now that we also need to address, that the Mayor 

has mentioned. I won’t go over that. 

But I’ll mention that during the 1990’s President Bill Clinton 

and Congress appropriated funding to support the Community Oriented Policing Squad Program, or COPS program. The Federal 

Government supported then the addition of 100,000 policemen to 

the ranks of our municipalities and States and to the use of technology to prevent crime and create networks among the law enforcement communities. Here in New Orleans, the COPS program 

at its height provided $20 million annually that allowed our police 

12

department to train and put to work in high crime areas many policemen who used neighborhood beats, foot patrols, and special 

crime prevention methods to combat crime in certain neighborhoods. The program worked, resulting here in New Orleans in a 

significant reduction in our crime rate, and especially with regard 

to the murder rate. 

I encourage the Crime Subcommittee to seek funding to renew 

the program here in New Orleans on a temporary basis to tide us 

over this—this current crisis. We want to thank the State National 

Guard for what they’ve done. But the National Guard are not policemen. They have certain restrictions they must work under, and 

we need more policemen on this street. 

There’s sufficient evidence that the problem with violent crime in 

New Orleans is also a problem of drug use, resulting in criminal 

activity. Some statistics show that over 60 percent of those arrested 

for criminal activity in New Orleans test positive for illegal drug 

use. The police report that the vast majority of murders in our city 

are connected to drug use and to drug-related turf wars. It is clear, 

then, that problem of drug use and abuse in our city must be addressed if we are to curb violent crime in New Orleans. 

There is much the Federal Government can do. The Drug Enforcement Administration has resources and programs designed to 

promote drug prevention. These programs must be employed to a 

greater extent here in New Orleans. I encourage the Crime Subcommittee to ask the DEA, ‘‘What is being done here in New Orleans, with one of the highest violent crime rates in our city, to stop 

the flow and use of illegal drugs?’’ ‘‘To what extent is the DEA investing additional resources in drug-use-prevention programs in 

the city that has been so devastated by the flood?’’ I encourage the 

Committee to insist on more creative drug prevention intervention 

by the DEA. 

And what of the effectiveness of drug importation laws? None of 

the drugs on our street are grown in the backyards or farms of 

Americans. Almost all of it comes from sources outside of America. 

Should we employ new strategies to deal with this problem, since 

the old ones aren’t working? And what of drug consumption? Are 

there ways that the Committee can support more drug education 

to stem consumption? And the few drug-treatment facilities that 

existed before the storm are for the most part still out of business, 

including the one called BASIC that was doing exciting and wonderful things with a community-based drug program. 

Victims and witnesses to violent crime in New Orleans are often 

afraid to participate in our system of criminal justice. There’s a 

need here to help make it easy for our police to protect people in 

having a safe place before they are able to—so they can testify and 

be part of the solution to the problem. The percentage of incidents 

involved with unsolved and even uncontested crimes, especially 

murder in New Orleans, is directly related to the fear that people 

feel about testifying in court. 

We are pleased to see, as Councilman Thomas has said, the reestablishment of the crime lab at the University of New Orleans and 

with recent programs and cooperation between the DA’s office and 

the NOPD. We want—we need—to strengthen and support their efforts on the Federal level. It’s never been more important to rebuild 

13

the criminal justice system in New Orleans than now. President 

George Bush pledged to the citizens of our Nation, ‘‘We will build 

a New Orleans that is better than before.’’ This cannot take place 

because there are thousands of citizens of our city who delay their 

return because of a perception and the reality of violent crime and 

its effects on everyday life. 

We have problems, Mr. Scott, that go well beyond the jurisdiction 

and rebuilding of FEMA—and the restoration—of our criminal justice system infrastructure: Rebuilding of fire and police stations; rebuilding the DA’s office; rebuilding our court system—all of our important questions here that we must deal with, that we think the 

Federal Government can assist us with in finding a solution. So, 

in any event, I think the Mayor wrapped this up and said: ‘‘The 

eyes of the Nation are on the Federal Government and its response 

to the needs of the people of New Orleans following the flood of our 

city.’’ Enhanced support for drug-prevention efforts, support for 

witness participation in our criminal justice system, and support 

for the enhanced training and deployment of police to our city’s violent crime hot spots, and rapid restoration of these physical infrastructures of the criminal justice system is something the Federal 

Government can do more to help to make our city safer. 

Thank you, again, for coming to our city Chairman Scott. And I 

thank the Members of the Committee for their attention to this 

matter. I appreciate the chance to testify before it. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Representative Jefferson. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jefferson follows:]

14

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE WILLIAM J. JEFFERSON, A

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF LOUISIANA


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Mr. SCOTT. And we’ll have questions now, recognizing myself for 

5 minutes. I guess not just to ask too many questions, but Representative Jefferson I want to thank you for inviting us here. You 

invited the Education Committee here several months ago, and I 

was part of that delegation. I was also part of the delegation that 

came on the anniversary of the hurricane last August. You got the 

Housing Subcommittee here recently; so, you’ve been hard at work 

making sure we don’t forget. You and Representative Jindal have 

been very meticulous in making sure that we keep this on our front 

burner. You mentioned many important issues, as did Mayor 

Nagin. Some of the lists are not specifically Criminal Justice Crime 

Subcommittee issues, but all affect criminal justice issues. For example, if you don’t do the summer jobs, you’re going to have criminal justice implications. We need to have ex-offenders and drug rehabilitation, specific crime initiatives—there are a lot of things that 

we need to do—to make sure that we prevent crime before it starts. 

And when Mr. Thomas said some complained about building playgrounds, we ought to be building prisons; I’m sure you told them, 

‘‘If we had more playgrounds, we wouldn’t need as many prisons 

as we’re trying to build.’’ So I appreciate all of the testimony. 

And Dr. Hughes, I did have one question specifically for you. We 

have many of the people on the front line of the criminal justice 

system that have questions. But, Dr. Hughes, since I have you: The 

last time I was here, there was a good consortium amongst the colleges, all trying to rebuild. Can you tell us what’s going on with 

that consortium? 

Ms. HUGHES. That consortium continues. 

We currently, as administrators, for example, at Dillard University are living in Tulane space downtown. We are using the library 

of the University of New Orleans and using other facilities as needed. We are in the process now of further defining the particulars 

of the consortium so that in the future post-Katrina, ad infinitum, 

we begin to become more definitive about how we can assist each 

other to be stronger. I think we now know that together we are 

much stronger, we can expand our offerings, and we are a permanent consortium. 

Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Chairman, at one of the Committee meetings 

we had not too long ago with the consortium of the universities, we 

talked about a commitment to better lighting. We’re working with 

the utility company to make sure that the campuses are lit. Coordination with the New Orleans Police Department, with campus security, and the other agencies; so, these are the kinds of systems 

that are kind of coming out of that consortium; and we are working 

with, especially—specifically, under—public officials and with university leaders in those two areas to make sure that at least those 

two things happen immediately for students and administrators 

who are working on our university campus. 

Mr. SCOTT. And what portion of the students—you know, less 

than 100,000 staff and students were in New Orleans before the 

hurricane? 

Ms. HUGHES. That’s correct. 

Mr. SCOTT. And how many staff and students are in New Orleans now? 

19

Ms. HUGHES. I’m going to give you an estimate. First let me address that for little Dillard University. As you know, we could not 

come back to campus until September of 2006; and, so, our students were not on campus. But when we did return, we have about 

55 percent of our students who returned. Many of the universities 

are not comparably as low because they were back much sooner. 

But I know that enrollment is consistently down for all of the universities; and, so, I’m going to guess that, on an average, we probably have about 70 or 75 percent of our students down. And, as you 

know, the enrollment determines what our budget is; so, it’s very 

important to us that we project the kind of image that will attract 

students back. 

Mr. SCOTT. And how does public safety affect the return of students? 

Ms. HUGHES. It is absolutely critical for the return of students. 

And, as a matter of fact, in addition to the public safety that’s offered by the city, Dillard determined that it needed to also increase 

its security. And, so, we are a gated community, and we’ve taken 

advantage of that. But we know that we need someone on duty 24/

7, and that’s what we do. 

Mr. SCOTT. And, Mayor Nagin, let me just ask one more question 

really quickly. Summer—do you have a summer jobs program 

planned for this summer. 

Mr. NAGIN. Yes, we do. We are presently funding that through 

our general fund. We are trying to get at least a thousand young 

people employed this summer, but the need is much greater. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Representative Forbes. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I want to 

thank you, all of our witnesses, for being here, and for your expertise. Mr. Chairman, I’d like to move at this time to allow Congressman Jindal’s statement to be included as part of the record without 

objection. 

Mr. SCOTT. Without objection. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jindal follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE BOBBY JINDAL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF LOUISIANA

Thank you Chairman Scott and Ranking Member Forbes for the opportunity to 

participate in this hearing. Since Hurricane Katrina, the violent crime rate in New 

Orleans has not subsided, but continues to increase. On Monday April 2, 2007, four 

men were killed in New Orleans bringing the number of murders this year to 53, 

compared to 17 for the same period last year. One shooting even occurred as the 

victim was holding his two-year-old son and watched as his wife was gunned down. 

New Orleans’ murder rate in 2003 was nearly eight times the national average—

and since then, the murder rate has continued to increase. In 2002 and 2003, New 

Orleans had the highest per capita city homicide rate in the United States, with 

59 people killed per year per 100,000 citizens—compared to New York City’s seven. 

In 2006, despite a population decrease stemming from Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, 

161 killings still occurred in the Crescent City. 

The problem of crime is not a new one, nor is it a problem that is limited to major 

urban areas like New Orleans. The first five minutes of local newscasts—whether 

in Shreveport, Monroe, Lake Charles or anywhere in between—recap the violent 

crimes, robberies and drug arrests that have occurred in the last 24 hours that are 

placing a stranglehold on our communities. 

Criminals are getting more daring and are willing to strike during any time of 

the day. In February of this year, a successful professional in Baton Rouge was 

walking to her car on a rainy afternoon at a local grocery store when she was conVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:42 Jan 29, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 H:\WORK\CRIME\041007\34527.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
20

fronted by a man and woman brandishing a gun. Luckily, she was not injured, but 

her story is a good reminder that while we cannot be captive to these types of 

events, we should remain vigilant of our surroundings and work together to combat 

this growing trend. 

Once thought to be only a problem in our Nation’s largest cities, violent crime and 

gangs have invaded smaller communities, as witnessed by the recent shooting in the 

town of Maringouin located in Iberville Parish, where three reported criminal gangs 

exist. Across the state in 2005, Louisiana endured 26,889 violent crimes, 450 murders, and 19,681 aggravated assaults. This places Louisiana’s crime rate about 24 

percent higher than the national average rate. 

Although not all criminal activity can be linked to the rise in gang violence, the 

U.S. Department of Justice reports that there are currently over 25,000 active gangs 

in more than 3,000 jurisdictions in the United States. In New Orleans, gang related 

crime is most often a result of turf wars between groups. These gangs often operate 

through sales of illegal narcotics. 

More and more communities are suffering from gang type violence where all too 

often innocent bystanders are tragically shot, and law-abiding members of communities are prisoners in their own homes in fear of being caught in the cross-fire of 

gang violence. These gangs are also introducing our youth to dangerous illegal drugs 

in many of these communities. 

To help fight this problem I have introduced legislation that will establish joint 

task forces of Federal, State and local law enforcement and prosecutors so they can 

share resources and intelligence to help target the most serious gangs in a community. For Louisiana, this means encouraging full interaction and communication beyond parish lines between law enforcement, prosecution, Clerks of Court, judges, 

corrections, and homeland security. 

The Violent Crime Reduction Act of 2007 would create guidelines to designate 

High Intensity Gang Areas in these communities and authorize Federal funding to 

help combat gang activity, as well as help states hire prosecutors and purchase technology, equipment and training for gang enforcement. 

But, many times once these criminals are caught and released, they will move to 

another part of the state and begin all over again. For 36 years, Louisiana has been 

trying to put together a database to track criminals, arrests, prosecutions, and convictions. As hard as it is to believe, there currently is no comprehensive system to 

track offenders from the time of arrest through to disposition. This type of system 

would have been very valuable in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita when 

FEMA refused to share information with local authorities on whether any evacuees 

staying at shelters or FEMA-run trailer parks had a past history of sexually violating innocent children. 

Louisiana can become a model for the nation by having the first fully-integrated 

automated criminal justice information system. The key to implementing this thirtyyear-old effort is to provide funding to the key reporting agencies, particularly the 

District Attorneys, to help establish this type of system. The project should also facilitate the completion of systems for law enforcement and courts, and assure interoperability between the various systems. 

In light of this goal, my legislation authorizes the U.S. Department of Justice to 

award grants to state and local programs for the specific purpose of designing and 

establishing a statewide database to track criminals, arrests, prosecutions, and convictions. With Louisiana receiving such a grant, a database that law enforcement 

agencies have sought for more than three decades would finally be established and 

would play an important role in protecting our children and communities from established criminals. 

No single group can solve the crime problem alone. Our country was able to begin 

breaking up organized crime years ago only when Federal, state and local governments worked together to utilize each other’s resources. My legislation helps establish that working relationship again. Only through that coordinated effort, as well 

as the efforts of ordinary citizens watching and taking action in their neighborhoods, 

will we take back our communities and tackle the current crime problem in Louisiana.

Mr. FORBES. And I’m on the same time frame that you are, so 

I’m going to try to be as brief as possible and ask you to keep your 

questions brief. First of all, Congressman Jefferson, you mentioned 

the fact that this was not an assessment of blame; and, truly, it’s 

not an assessment of blame. At the same time, what it is is an exploration of opportunities to effectively reach our goals, and not 

21

just toss money on the problems. One of the things this Committee 

had actually heard in testimony earlier in Washington, was that as 

few as 20 percent of the programs that we actually fund have been 

proven to have effectiveness. And, so, what we’re trying to do is 

make sure we’re getting the most bang for our bucks. I could spend 

my whole time praising the great efforts that you’ve done, which 

have been great, particularly the great degree of support that the 

NOPD has from the Federal law enforcement. That’s a model of 

what you guys are doing, and I think that’s wonderful. 

But, Mr. Thomas, I want to ask you, first of all: In most localities 

around the country, when you’re talking about building playgrounds and educational programs, one of the things we look to is 

our corporate neighbors to come in and help fund that, not necessarily the Federal Government. Is it your understanding that 

there is at least a perception among a lot of your corporate entities, 

some of whom are listed, but there’s at least a perception that 

there’s some corruption in New Orleans that maybe makes it difficult for them to have the kind of work environment that they 

want? 

Mr. THOMAS. Well, we’ve had committees like Friends of 

NORD—and we still have Friends of NORD—that help to raise 

money for play spots and playgrounds that currently exist. One of 

the problems we have, especially post-Katrina, is the level of philanthropy, and we——

Mr. FORBES. Now, if you can, keep it on my question. 

Mr. THOMAS. Well, yeah. Oh, yeah. 

Mr. FORBES. You understand that there is that——

Mr. THOMAS. Absolutely. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. Perception among a lot of your corporations——

Mr. THOMAS. There has been that perception for quite some time. 

I have been questioned all the time about, well, whether there’s 

corruption or inefficiency or inadequate administration, or, ‘‘I 

would much rather donate to a particular school or a booster club, 

instead of NORD.’’ We’re trying to address that question right now. 

I think the Mayor, through his administration, is working with the 

entities that want to help or trying to at least make people feel and 

understand that the money is actually going to get to the play spot 

or playground. 

Mr. FORBES. The thing that I would ask you to do, just, again, 

because I’ve only got five——

Mr. THOMAS. Right. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. And I’d love to talk with you on 

that——

Mr. THOMAS. Right. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. But if you could maybe submit for the 

record for us what program you’re doing to try to change that perception for the corporations. The other question I had for you: You 

mentioned that New Orleans had the highest incarceration rate, 

one of the highest in the country. 

Mr. THOMAS. Our State has for 20 years. 

Mr. FORBES. Your State has? 

Mr. THOMAS. Yes. 

22

Mr. FORBES. But in New Orleans, you have one of the lowest 

prosecution rates. 

Mr. THOMAS. Yes. 

Mr. FORBES. And help me, because, you know, one of the things 

that we scratch our heads is when we see murders taking place 

on—that are videotaped——

Mr. THOMAS. Yes. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. That are not prosecuted and people are 

released, and the Federal Government has to pick that up. How 

does that instill the kind of confidence that Mr. Jefferson talked 

about in the fair and effective criminal justice system? 

Mr. THOMAS. That’s one reason why one of the first things I did 

was institute a crime summit and started the subcommittee headed 

by Council Member James Carter, who is a former criminal defense 

attorney. He worked at the Federal Weed and Seed program to 

make sure that the systems that are in place don’t allow the same 

kinds of things that happened in the past—since they had more accountability because it’s the police department; the funding component, which is the—the city, the criminal court judges, or—or the 

district attorney. We think at the end of the day, with the components that are working together now, you are going to see progress; 

and we are seeing progress. Better relationships, better report writing, better relationships between ADAs and police officers that 

have to testify in cases, witnesses that feel more comfortable and 

feel safer in coming forward, are going to help in those areas. 

Mr. FORBES. If you could get us that because, again, we’re going 

to face these same——

Mr. THOMAS. Yes. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. Questions whether we’re going to ask 

them today or we ask them down the road, but that would be helpful. And, also, whether your judges get a percentage of the release 

bond? I mean, you know, there are questions that are raised to us, 

if we had—last question that——

Mr. THOMAS. We’ll make sure that kind of information gets to 

this Committee. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you so much. And, since I’m about out of my 

time: Mayor, we know that Katrina had devastating effects on New 

Orleans and everyone else. 

Mr. NAGIN. Uh-huh. 

Mr. FORBES. We want to explore that. But one of the things we 

also—we get questions about back in Washington is that, prior to 

Katrina, New Orleans had, you know, one of the highest murder 

rates, lowest prosecution rates in the country. Have you guys done 

an analysis to see what were those problems before Katrina and 

after Katrina, and how you are creating a plan that’s going to solve 

those problems too; so, as you move forward, you are—again, I’m 

just using Mr. Jefferson’s words—building that confidence in a fair 

and effective criminal justice system that respects and enforces the 

law? 

Mr. NAGIN. Congressman, we have done many studies and analysis. We currently have Dr. Brown from Houston who is a former 

crime czar working with us to analyze our criminal justice system. 

We have former Attorney General Richard Eyoub. We have all the 

elements of the criminal justice system going through a critical 

23

analysis and making changes to improve our criminal justice system. But I must point out to you that one of the big inhibitors right 

now is the lack of Federal dollars that is flowing to repair our infrastructure that is required by the Stafford Act. That is the thing 

that is causing us right now not to rebuild this system to the best 

it can be. 

Mr. FORBES. And thank you. And thank all of you so much for 

your time. My time is up. 

Mr. SCOTT. Our colleague from Texas, Mr. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Scott. I appreciate all of you-all 

being here. And President Hughes, I appreciate the opportunity to 

be here at your fine university. I was struck by the beauty of this 

campus and how well groomed it is. You had mentioned that students didn’t return until a full year after Katrina. Was there hurricane damage here to the campus that caused your delay to come 

back? 

Ms. HUGHES. I think probably the best description I could give 

you is to say that this campus was a lake for about 4 weeks. Where 

you’re sitting is probably the only building that did not have water 

on every—on at least the first floor and in some instances the second. So, we had to go through a 100 percent process of remediation; 

and it was either a choice to allow our students to remain scattered 

all over the country or to bring them back to what I consider home 

and what they consider home. And we brought them home to New 

Orleans where they were a part of the economic redevelopment in 

that area living at the Hilton Hotel. And, in the meantime, we 

weren’t building this campus. 

We had to remediate. That took about 6 months. We started our 

construction in late January or February. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I’m pressed for time. My time is very limited. Just 

the fact that there was a lake here for 4 weeks——

Ms. HUGHES. Yes. 

Mr. GOHMERT. —[Laughter.] But, Mayor Nagin——

Mr. NAGIN. Yes. 

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. You know, without employment obviously, it tends to make people lean toward crime. 

Mr. NAGIN. Yeah. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I—you know, there were—there were stories of 

fast food restaurants, different places, offering big bonuses postKatrina to get people to come in. 

Mr. NAGIN. Yes. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And, yet, we saw a high crime rate, that kind of 

puzzled the cow where you reconcile people paying big bonuses just 

to come work in fast food——

Mr. NAGIN. Yeah. 

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. And crime also being high at the 

same time. 

Mr. NAGIN. Well, there are many jobs that are available in our 

community; it’s true. And many people are being employed at unprecedented levels. But I go back to the effects of Katrina. When 

the Federal levee system broke, many people were stranded and 

neglected and just totally displaced. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Wait. It was the Federal levee system? 

Mr. NAGIN. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 

24

Mr. GOHMERT. That is all Federal money that went into the levees? 

Mr. NAGIN. Yes. For the most part, sir. Most of it, yes. So, there 

are people in our community that are struggling right now with the 

after effects of Katrina. 

And that coupled with the smaller footprint and the turf wars 

that are going on for drug territory is fueling the crime rate. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, Representative Jefferson, you had mentioned that one of the big problems was criminal records that were 

destroyed, making prosecution difficult. And I know, having been 

a judge and Chief Justice in East Texas, one of the things we dealt 

with constantly was making sure that we had adequate backup for 

all of our records. Was there not adequate protection and backup 

for the records that existed here in New Orleans? 

Mr. JEFFERSON. I don’t think I can answer that specifically. The 

other——

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Well, you had brought it up in your statement. 

Mr. JEFFERSON. Right. Right. You know what happened. It must 

be that there wasn’t backed up evidence. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Of course, there was much talk about it in the 

news about your coming back to New Orleans so quickly. What did 

you see first-hand in the way of law enforcement attempting to prevent crime, looting, that kind of thing happening, when you first 

returned? 

Mr. JEFFERSON. Well, as I said, early on, we had the Army here, 

and we had the National Guard and all of that, so nothing went 

on here to speak of, in respect to crime except a few reports about 

shooting at some of the people who were here, which weren’t supported as time went on. And for a period of time, the city was really a safe place. 

And it seemed to be that things had calmed down. But then all 

of a sudden people started coming in and the drug wars started. 

I think, more than anything else, this happened when these people 

were establishing themselves—trying to establish themselves as 

the king of this drug area. And the shootings have been, in many 

case execution-style shootings; the person shot in the head and all 

of that. It’s a tough situation. We think a great deal of it’s related 

to the reestablishment of drug activity in the area. 

Mr. GOHMERT. But, initially, immediately after the storm, there 

was not a lot of activity of——

Mr. JEFFERSON. No. 

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. Any kind. 

Mr. JEFFERSON. No. 

Mr. GOHMERT. So, from experience——

Mr. JEFFERSON. After——

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. What was done to prevent——

Mr. JEFFERSON. After——

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. Those people——

Mr. JEFFERSON [continuing]. You got so many people here, you 

have 40,000 or so troops in the city, who are regular Army people. 

You had some huge number—I don’t remember anymore—of National Guard troops. And they were all over the place, and they 

stayed here for a while. And, of course, there weren’t many people 

25

here at all. As people trickled back in, there seemed to be a time 

of opportunity for some people who wanted to come in and set up 

a drug operation. And that setup is what happened. When the military people left, and the National Guard was down, and police officers trying to get back into the establishment, it seemed for a 

minute that things were under control, but it really was a false 

calm. 

Mr. GOHMERT. My time is expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. We want to thank the witnesses for their 

testimony. This has been very helpful. And, as we said, Mr. Mayor 

and Mr. Thomas, we want to be as helpful as we possibly can. So, 

thank you very much. 

Mr. NAGIN. Thank you. Thank you for being here. God bless. 

Mr. SCOTT. We ask that Eddie Jordan and Warren Riley, Chief 

of Police, and Sheriff Gusman come forward and take seats. 

Mr. THOMAS. We also have some pamphlets from community organizations that are working with the crime consortium, that I 

gave to the officer to pass out. We have some pamphlets from the 

different community organizations that are involved in——

Mr. SCOTT. We have some pamphlets available Mr. Thomas has 

mentioned. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Thomas, are these——

Mr. THOMAS. Yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. Our first witness of this panel will be the Honorable 

Eddie Jordan. He served as the New Orleans, the Orleans Parish 

District Attorney from 1994 to 2001. He served as a U.S. Attorney 

for the Eastern District of Louisiana and received a law degree 

from Rutgers University School of Law. 

The next witness will be Chief Warren Riley, who serves as the 

Chief of Police from the—from New Orleans Department. Has 

served as the Chief of Police in New Orleans Police Department 

since November of 2005. He’s a 24-year veteran of the New Orleans 

Police Department, and he served as the department’s Chief Operating Officer prior to becoming Chief. He holds a Master’s Degree 

from Southern University of New Orleans. 

Next will be Sheriff Gusman, Criminal Sheriff of Orleans Parish. 

As criminal sheriff, he’s responsible for the care, custody, and control of incarcerated defendants in Orleans Parish, which holds the 

Nation’s eighth largest correctional facility. He received a law degree from Loyola University. 

Mr. Jordan. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE EDDIE J. JORDAN,

ORLEANS PARISH DISTRICT ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you Members 

of this Committee for giving us an opportunity to talk about the 

impact of Hurricane Katrina on our criminal justice system and 

our ongoing efforts to fight crime in the city of New Orleans. 

Having served as U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Louisiana, I am very much conscious of the importance of law enforcement in fighting crime and working with all of our criminal justice 

agencies. My office suffered tremendous damage after the storm. 

And allow me to give a brief overview of the financial condition of 

the office post-Katrina. 

26

For 2005, the district attorney’s allocated budget was a little in excess of $3 million. However, immediately after the storm, we 

were informed that we would not be receiving a substantial portion 

of our allocated budget. This loss of revenue resulted in the layoff 

of 57 non-attorney employees. That is roughly 84 percent of my 

non-attorney staff. For a period of time, my office operated with 11 

staff members and approximately 57 or 55 attorneys. 

It was not until June of 2006 that the Department of Justice and 

the Louisiana Commission on Law Enforcement awarded my office 

a substantial sum of money in excess of 3 million in Recovery 

Grant funds. These funds are to be expended over a 24-month period, and they have allowed my office to return to some degree of 

normalcy. For 2007, the New Orleans City Council appropriated almost $3 

million in operating expenses for my office. This increase over 2006 

allowed my office to increase the salaries of assistant district attorneys to roughly $45,000 and to add an additional three prosecutors 

to our Violent Offender Prosecution Unit. Now, this is important 

because of the history of high attrition that my office has suffered 

over the years. We have had a tremendous number of assistant district attorneys leave the office over the years because of the very 

low salaries. But with this increase, we have had more success in 

retaining our prosecutors. But as a result of the storm, we probably 

have in excess of 50 percent of our attorneys being new prosecutors, and most of them are inexperienced; that is, individuals right 

out of school. 

Today we are funded for 89 assistant district attorneys. Before 

the storm we were funded for approximately 92 assistant district 

attorneys. Our immediate needs in the district attorney’s office are 

for an expanded Victim Witness Assistance program and also for 

community prosecutors and for funding for an office space. And let 

me start with the last item first. 

Currently, we’re in about our third temporary location after the 

storm. The storm had a devastating impact on our office building. 

The first floor took on about three to four feet of water. We lost 

many of our records, and we have not been able to return to that 

building. There is no definitive date as to when we will be back in 

that building. Our attorneys are operating on card tables right 

now, and about 120 individuals are on one floor of an office building. It’s clearly inadequate. Many prosecutors share offices—there 

are three and four to a room. 

Let me talk about the Community Prosecutor concept very briefly. We desperately need additional prosecutors to screen violent 

crime cases in particular. We envision that these prosecutors would 

work very closely with police officers in making stronger violent 

crime cases that can be brought to court. They would also interact 

with community members in the neighborhoods throughout the city 

of New Orleans. 

And, finally, the most important item that we think that Congress can help us with is an expanded Victim Witness Assistance 

program. We need funding for this program because of the very 

real fear that many victims of violent crime have in the city of New 

Orleans; victims and of course, family members and witnesses of 

violent crime as well. The Victim Witness Assistance program 

27

would be designed to help victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, stalking, and witnesses who have a certain fear that, if they 

testify, they may be in harms way. Excuse me. We think that providing additional funding for transportation and for a safe house located in another State, and also partnering with some of our other 

criminal justice agencies such as the sheriff’s office in providing 

some minimal level of security would be extremely helpful and 

would allow us to service more individuals who are the victims of 

violent crime and who are witnesses to violent crime. Already my 

office has provided services to a number of individuals in the successful prosecutions of homicide cases and other violent crime 

cases. 

And I’ll answer any questions that you have following the presentations of the other panel members. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jordan follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE EDDIE J. JORDAN, JR. 

INTRODUCTION

I believe it would be beneficial to briefly highlight the financial condition of my 

office post-Katrina. Prior to Katrina, the City of New Orleans provided allocated operating funds (budget) to the district attorney’s office on a quarterly basis. For 2005 

the district attorney’s allocated budget was $3,371,616.00. Disbursed quarterly, we 

were due to receive four checks each in the amount of $842,904.00. We did not receive a 2005 fourth quarter check. On September 29, 2005 we were informed that 

the city had no money to contribute to the operating expenses of the district attorney’s office. Our other traditional revenue sources—grant reimbursements, traffic 

court fees, bail bond fees, court costs, and diversion and bad check program fees—

were also halted. This loss of revenue resulted in the lay off of 57 non-attorney employees (84% of the staff). 

After Katrina my office operated with a skeleton crew of eleven staff members and 

approximately fifty-five attorneys. In November 2005 the City Administration informed us that we had been allocated $2,360,131 for 2006 operating expenses. We 

received these funds via a monthly stipend of $196,677.58. By January 2006 we 

were able to restart several grants, which allowed us to return five data entry 

clerks, a screening bill typist, and one secretary to work. During March and April 

we began the process of applying for Department of Justice (DOJ) emergency funding through the Criminal Justice Infrastructure Recovery Grant program. In May 

and June we were able to restart our Domestic Violence Program grants. These 

grants allowed the return of two social worker counselors to assist domestic violence 

victims, and allowed us to dedicate a screener and investigator to focus exclusively 

on domestic violence cases. Also in June 2006 the DOJ and Louisiana Commission 

on Law Enforcement awarded my office $3,014,000 in Recovery Grant funds. These 

funds are to be expended over a twenty-four month period, and are intended for the 

two-fold purpose of returning operations of the district attorney’s office to an essential level, and, where possible, to restore services to pre-Katrina levels. This grant 

provided operating funds as well as funds to fill thirty-three staff positions and 

seven attorney positions. The seven attorney positions were authorized for a four 

person Case Recovery Management Team (CRMT) dedicated to reviewing preKatrina cases to assess if the case remains viable and to insure all incarcerated defendants are brought to court for appropriate proceedings; and a three person Violent Offender Prosecution Unit (VOPU) dedicated to prosecuting violent crimes and 

certain repeat offenders. The Recovery Grant also allowed my office to reestablish 

our Diversion and Investigative Units, and to return other critical clerical and administrative personnel to duty. Grant funds provide operating expenses for our Victim Witness Assistance Unit, and for basic services such as telephones and file storage. 

For 2007 the New Orleans City Council appropriated $2,946,131 in operating expenses for my office. This is less than pre-Katrina operating expenses, but a 

$585,999 increase over 2006 funding. This increase was specifically allocated to provide salary increases to line prosecutors, and to allow the addition of three additional prosecutors to the Violent Offender Prosecution Unit. The salary increases 

28

made possible by the 2007 budget increase raised the minimum base salary for prosecutors to $45,000. 

STAFFING ISSUES

Before Katrina the Orleans Parish District Attorney employed ninety-two prosecutors. Two prosecutors were part-time. Currently we are funded for eighty-nine fulltime prosecutors. Thirteen of these positions are grant funded. Funds for eight of 

the grant positions will be expended by the end of 2007—seven Infrastructure Recovery Grant positions (CRMT and VOPU) and one grant funded rape screener’s position. 

In the short term the immediate need of my office is for eight additional screeners 

to assist my Screening Division. These additional attorneys would be utilized to facilitate the screening of victim cases by insuring that every victim has significant 

and timely contact with an attorney during the screening process. The additional 

attorneys would also be used to establish a Community Prosecution Program. 

This program would also facilitate the screening process by placing prosecutors 

at district police stations where they could provide assistance to police officers and 

begin the screening process, including making contact with victims/witnesses, immediately after a crime is reported. 

ATTORNEY CASELOAD

Katrina essentially shut down the criminal justice system until November 2005. 

The Orleans Parish Criminal Court Building, the District Attorney’s Office Building, 

the New Orleans Police Headquarters Building, and the Orleans Parish prison system all sustained significant flood damage. Currently, the District Attorney and 

New Orleans Police Department are still operating from temporary facilities. The 

Orleans Parish prison system is operating at a fraction of its pre-Katrina capacity. 

The Criminal Court has re-occupied its building, however that building has likewise 

not been restored to pre-Katrina condition. Damage to this infrastructure obviously 

impacted the ability to prosecute cases. My office is currently operating from its second temporary office. The Criminal Court returned to its regular offices in June 

2005. 

FUTURE NEEDS

The primary immediate needs of my office are funding for victim witness assistance, enforcement personnel, and additional office space. Eight additional attorneys 

are needed to assist with the screening of cases and to establish the core of a Community Prosecution Unit. As noted, the Community Prosecution Unit contemplates 

placing prosecutors at district police stations where they could have immediate contact with victims and witnesses and provide an additional resource for investigating 

police officers. 

Five law enforcement personnel are needed to supplement the work of the Screening and Homicide Divisions. Currently, my office has limited resources to commit 

to the pre-indictment investigation of cases—including homicide cases, which are 

screened by my Homicide Division. Police reports and other cases presented to my 

office for review frequently require follow-up investigative attention—such as additional forensic work, location of additional witnesses, procurement of necessary documents, clarification of victim/witness statements. New Orleans police personnel 

shortages have made it difficult for police officers to provide timely follow-up assistance once they have submitted a report. Additional investigative support dedicated 

to my office will provide the investigators needed to facilitate the important goal of 

a faster screening decision and, ultimately, a better-prepared case for our trial attorneys to prosecute. 

Finally, my office is operating out of our second post-Katrina temporary office. 

The city of New Orleans has been unable to provide a definitive date as to when 

we can reoccupy our permanent office. Significant renovations have yet to begin. We 

have approximately 125 employees crowded into less than 20,000 square feet of office space. As a practical matter, this results in multiple individuals sharing offices 

and data and clerical personnel working from workstations set up in corridors. Locating additional space is a priority for my office in the coming weeks. 

Thank you for the opportunity to bring these issues to your attention.

Mr. SCOTT. Chief Riley. 

29

TESTIMONY OF WARREN J. RILEY, CHIEF OF POLICE, NEW 

ORLEANS POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Chief RILEY. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of the 

Committee. Thank you all for taking the time to listen to the issues 

that are impacting the New Orleans Police Department and our 

criminal justice system. 

In the 20 months since Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans Police Department has overcome many hurdles, but many challenges 

remain. Most of our officers who lost homes to the storm have repaired or purchased new homes. Others are renting but some are 

still living in FEMA trailers. Many family members who were displaced have returned to the city. However, some families remain 

displaced. We were able to secure a 10 percent across-the-board 

pay raise for all officers, and reasonably promoted police officers 

from the grade of Police Officer 1 to the grade of Police Officers 2, 

3, and 4, which were long overdue and will go a long way in helping our retention. Overcoming these few hurdles have motivated 

our officers to continue to faithfully serve the citizenry of New Orleans in spite of the many challenges that remain. And to do that, 

I applaud their commitment and dedication. 

The challenges that continue to face the New Orleans Police Department are multidimensional. While Katrina has enhanced our 

challenges, many existed pre-Katrina. 

The criminal environment of the city of New Orleans is a product 

of many long-term socioeconomic factors, but it’s driven to extremes 

by the massive systematic drug culture and the violence that is engendered by that lifestyle. 

As law enforcement professionals, we recognize the challenges 

these factors have had on overall crime and the criminal justice 

system in our great city. 

In the aftermath immediately following Hurricane Katrina, a significant number of our law-abiding citizens, as well as the criminal 

element, were displaced in cities across America. As a result, the 

city of New Orleans experienced unprecedented reductions in 

crime. Now that many of our law-abiding citizens are returning to 

help rebuild our city, many of those involved in criminal activity 

are returning as well. The challenges the New Orleans Police Department faced pre-Katrina are now compounded with new challenges post-Katrina. 

New challenges for the NOPD include personnel issues such as 

recruiting and retention, a reduced learning period for recruits, and 

the potential impact that it has on retirees. The personnel issues: 

NOPD’s personnel losses since the storm have been extreme. Locally we have no competitive advantage in recruiting qualified applicants. We suffered a net loss of 217 officers in 2005 and 216 in 

2006. As of April 5 of 2007, we have lost another 49 officers. One 

Police Academy class has graduated in 2007 with 38 new field 

trainees. A second group is currently in the academy with 31 potential officers. It is estimated that, at the current annual rate of 

loss, by the time the second class graduates, we will have a net loss 

for the year to date. In 2005 our maximum commissioned strength 

was 1741 officers. Post-Katrina we have experienced a decrease of 

482 officers. Our current effective personnel strength, total commisVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:42 Jan 29, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\041007\34527.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
30

sioned members minus those on long-term illness, injury, and all 

recruits, is 1,227 officers. 

This is a decrease of 514 officers. This is a net loss of almost 30 

percent of our 2005 maximum personnel strength. 

Issues with retention. Retaining our officers has become—is becoming increasingly difficult. Retention has been impacted by both 

resignation and retirements. 

In the past, the rate has averaged about 6 or 7 percent a year. 

It is now over 15 percent and shows no sign of declining. Many of 

our officers have indicated the following reasons for considering 

and/or separating from the department: Working conditions, loss of 

buildings and infrastructure in the department, living conditions. 

Post-Katrina housing is still an issue for many. Schools and lack 

of affordable housing significantly impact—are a significant impact 

from increased rental rates and insurance rates and utilities that 

our officers just can’t afford. 

Twenty months after the storm, our working conditions have not 

improved. The NOPD is still operating in FEMA trailers. My office 

is in a FEMA trailer. We have no headquarters buildings. Three of 

our eight district stations are still not repaired. We have no permanent crime lab facility. We did, in fact, move into rented space at 

the University of New Orleans just last week. No central evidence 

and property storage facility. No Special Operations Division/Traffic Division complex. No Juvenile Division holding facility. All of 

these districts or divisions and units are operating out of FEMA 

trailers. None of the facilities lost in the storm have been repaired 

or replaced. 

We are only a few months away from another hurricane season, 

which by all meteorological predictions will be active. Any storm 

that enters the Gulf of Mexico has a high probability to affect the 

city of New Orleans. The lack of critical police facilities and capabilities is not only having a deleterious effect on the presentation—

on the presentation and prosecution of cases, it has eroded the morale of the officers who see their best efforts to combat crime 

stalled due to our inability to adequately test and evaluate the evidence; and watch as the same offenders are repeatedly arrested 

and released. 

Due to the massive flooding of the city, New Orleans witnessed 

a migration of nearly half of its resident population and a significant portion of its businesses, many to—many to our neighboring 

parishes that were less affected by flood waters. Those parishes 

have grown significantly both in population and businesses. As a 

result, tax revenues in New Orleans have declined and city services 

suffered, including the police department. Tax revenues in unaffected cities and parishes, such as St. Tammany, Baton Rouge, and 

Jefferson, have increased significantly and allowed those areas to 

increase both services and salaries. At present, we only have one 

qualified firearm examiner and one fingerprint examiner. Our current backlog of firearm examinations exceed 200, and confiscated 

narcotics to be tested exceed 2000. Many of our most experienced 

and technically trained personnel have left the New Orleans Police 

Department for other or nearby law enforcement agencies, for higher pay, better facilities, and a better quality of life. 

31

Issues with recruiting. For many of the same reasons affecting 

retention, recruitment is a problem locally. Even with extensive advertising campaigns by the New Orleans Police and Justice Foundation, recruiting bonuses and housing assistance, the NOPD is 

still ‘‘fishing in the same pond’’ as neighboring jurisdictions that 

have similar or higher salaries. They, too, have been forced to raise 

pay and benefits to retain and hire additional officers. They also 

have actual or perceived better living and working conditions, a 

main reason NOPD has lost a significant number of experienced officers and specialists to nearby departments this year. We do not 

have the pay and incentive packages necessary to recruit from outside of our immediate region. Recruiting already trained and qualified officers from other departments outside of our region is the 

only way the NOPD can strengthen its numbers in the short term 

and gain experienced, qualified officers able to work the streets immediately in any effective manner. 

We have outlined an ad campaign to recruit former military. As 

soon as issues can be resolved with POST, which is a Police Officer 

Standards and Training Council, on what military training can be 

counted toward POST, we will begin a pursuit of military personnel 

more vigorously. 

The criminal justice system and the impact: The criminal justice 

system in New Orleans was completely destroyed by Hurricane 

Katrina. Both the criminal courts and Orleans Parish district attorney’s office are suffering from a backlog of cases and a lack of prosecutors and indigent defenders. The pre- and post-Katrina challenges of the criminal justice system has further exacerbated the 

crime problem by creating a mindset in the most violent offenders 

that they will not suffer for their crimes in New Orleans. 

Mr. SCOTT. I notice you’ve got quite a ways to go. 

Chief RILEY. Uh-huh. 

Mr. SCOTT. But——

Chief RILEY. Okay. It’s kind of hard to cover Katrina in 5 minutes, so—but, anyway, to wrap it up, just to——

Mr. SCOTT. I’ll ask you some questions, and you can get your——

Chief RILEY. Okay. 

Mr. SCOTT [continuing]. Rest of your statement in the questions. 

Chief RILEY. Okay. All right. Can I just wrap it up? A couple of 

things. Some of the things that we need. We need our 16 facilities 

repaired. We have 16 buildings that were damaged that have not 

been repaired. We will need the latest in equipment and technology 

for those facilities in order to bring us up to modern-day policing—

to a modern-day policing agency. We will need some assistance 

with funding if possible to bring our starting salaries up to the national level that will attract people to come to this city in the aftermath of Katrina. And we need to create an area for housing First 

Responders so those First Responders who have been living in 10-

by-30-foot trailers can move into a decent home or apartment. So 

those are four or five things that are really crucial to rebuilding 

this police department. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, and I hate to cut you off, but if you 

look——

Chief RILEY. I understand. 

32

Mr. SCOTT [continuing]. Through and see what you didn’t get in 

when we get to questions make sure you can get it in at that point. 

Chief RILEY. Okay. 

Mr. SCOTT. Okay? 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Riley follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF WARREN J. RILEY

The criminal environment of the City of New Orleans is the product of many longterm, socio-economic factors, but it is driven to extremes by the massive, systemic 

drug culture and the violence that is engendered by that lifestyle. Law enforcement 

professionals understand the huge impact that poverty and the drug culture have 

on overall crime and it needs not be explained in depth for purposes of this summary report. For those not ‘‘in the business,’’ just look to the significant spikes in 

crime suffered by the communities that ‘‘hosted’’ large numbers of displaced residents from New Orleans, and the criminal element that was with them, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Now, imagine the crime problem these same individuals 

create when they are all in one city and you begin to understand the current situation in New Orleans. 

NOPD PERSONNEL ISSUES—

NOPD’s personnel losses since the storm have been extreme. Locally, we have no 

competitive advantage in recruiting qualified applicants. We suffered a net loss of 

217 officers in 2005 and 216 in 2006. As of April 5, 2007, we have lost 49 officers. 

One Police Academy class has graduated in 2007 with 38 new field trainees. A second group is currently in the Academy with 31 potential officers. It is estimated 

that at the current annual rate of loss, by the time the second class graduates we 

will still have a net loss for the year to date. Our 2005 high was 1741 officers. We 

are down 482 officers until the two current recruit classes complete field training 

and graduate. Our current effective personnel strength (total commissioned members minus those on long term illness/injury and all recruits) is 1227. This is a decrease of 514 officers. This is a net loss of almost 30% of our total 2005 personnel 

high-point. 

ISSUES WITH RETENTION—

For reasons ranging from working conditions (loss of buildings and infrastructure 

of the Department), living conditions (post-Katrina housing is still an issue for 

many), schools, cost of living locally (significant impact from increased insurance 

rates and utilities), we have had a significant increase in personnel losses due to 

resignations and retirements. In the past, the rate has averaged about 6–7% per 

year. It is now over 15% and shows no sign of declining. 

New Orleans has lost over half of its resident population and a significant portion 

of its businesses. Neighboring parishes that were not devastated by flood waters 

have grown significantly, in both population and businesses. As a result, tax revenues in New Orleans have plunged and city services suffer, including the police department. Tax revenues in the unaffected cities and parishes (St. Tammany, Baton 

Rouge, and Jefferson) have increased significantly and allowed those areas to increase both services and salaries. 

Many of our most experienced and technically trained personnel have left the 

NOPD for other, nearby law enforcement agencies for higher pay, better facilities 

and a better quality of life. At present, we only have 1 qualified firearms examiner 

and 1 fingerprint examiner left. 

Over 200 firearms examinations alone are backlogged, as well as, over 2000 narcotics tests. 

Only a significant pay raise (more than just an offset to the local cost of living 

increases) will induce officers to remain and ‘‘re-evaluate’’ their retirement or career 

options, as well as allowing the department to recruit qualified applicants and officers from outside our immediate region. Based on national and regional data, an 

across-the-board base salary increase of 45 to 50% with some minimal, annual costof-living adjustment would be required. 

ISSUES WITH RECRUITING—

For many of the same reasons affecting retention, recruitment has been a problem 

locally. Even with extensive advertising campaigns by the New Orleans Police and 

Justice Foundation (NOPJF), recruiting bonuses and housing assistance, the NOPD 

is still ‘‘fishing in the same pond’’ as neighboring jurisdictions that have similar or 

33

higher salaries. They too have been forced to raise pay and benefits to retain and 

hire additional officers. They also have actual or perceived better living and working 

conditions, a main reason the NOPD has lost a significant number of experienced 

officers and specialists to nearby departments this year. We do not have the pay 

and incentive package necessary to recruit from outside our immediate region. Recruiting already trained and qualified officers from other departments outside our 

region is the only way the NOPD can strengthen its numbers in the short term and 

gain experienced, qualified officers able to work the streets immediately in any effective manner. 

We have outlined an ad campaign to recruit former military. As soon as issues 

can be resolved with the POST Council on what military training can be counted 

toward POST training requirements thereby allowing former military to be treated 

as ‘‘lateral’’ entry, we will be able to actively recruit from this pool and possibly fill 

vacancies faster than a traditional ‘‘new’’ hire. Once again though, competitive pay 

will be the determining factor for where these quality applicants will apply and 

work. 

LEARNING CURVE—

Absent a significant change in salaries and benefits, the NOPD will continue to 

lose between 100–150 officers per year for the foreseeable future. Without immediate help from trained, lateral hires, we must rely on our own training of new recruits to replenish our ranks. The learning curve for new trainees is estimated at 

7–8 months from the beginning of the Academy to their first permanent assignment 

after their Field Training Officer period. An additional 2 years of street experience 

is required after the Academy before they can function outside of a ‘‘calls-for-service’’ 

only capacity. With the staggering loss of senior, experienced officers and the crime 

problems facing the city, we cannot wait for new, entry level officers to gain experience. We must aggressively recruit lateral, experienced officers from other departments outside of our immediate region to fill our ranks and ‘‘hit the deck running’’. 

ADMINISTRATIVE ASSIGNMENTS—

Recognizing that our personnel shortage is past critical, the NOPD has reviewed 

all personnel assignments that are not DIRECTLY related to providing police services ‘‘on the street’’. An extensive analysis was done of all units in the Administrative and Support Bureau to determine the availability of commissioned personnel 

for reassignment to street duties. There are 90 commissioned members of all ranks 

in these Bureaus (including 10 captains, 6 lieutenants and 26 sergeants) supplemented by 15 commissioned members on administrative reassignment or limited 

duty due to injury or illness, from the Administrative Duties Division (ADD). 21 of 

the 85 currently staffed positions would have to retire or go to ADD if transferred 

to field duties. All of these units are operating at severe personnel shortage levels 

and any loss of personnel would likely tip the balance to a total loss of unit 

functionality. Since many of these units directly serve street operations, this is a 

critical issue. All commissioned personnel who are in administrative assignments 

MUST work 3 days a week in an Administrative Task Force to supplement the District personnel in the areas most affected by violent crime. 

CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IMPACT—

The criminal justice system in New Orleans was completely destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. Both the Criminal Courts and the Orleans Parish District Attorney’s 

Office have suffered from the backlog of cases and a lack of prosecutors and indigent 

defenders. The District Attorney’s Office was suffering from understaffed and inexperienced prosecutors prior to the storm. These issues became even more critical 

after the loss of staff and facilities. As with the NOPD, the DA’s Office is unable 

to compete in the market place for qualified staff. The pre and post Katrina dysfunction of the criminal justice system has further exacerbated the crime problem by 

creating a mindset in the most violent offenders that they will not suffer for their 

crimes in New Orleans. They are further emboldened to commit more crimes. 

With the criminal justice system only slowly coming back on-line locally, and 

given the huge backlog of cases that must eventually be screened and prosecuted, 

the demand for officers to appear in court will jump significantly. This need will remove those officers from their assigned duties and further reduce the number of 

commissioned personnel available at any given time to perform their regular duties. 

With the already low number of available officers, any further impact is significant. 

If it were not for the unprecedented cooperation and assistance of the local U.S. 

Attorney, Jim Letten and the FBI, DEA, ATF, ICE and US Marshall’s Office, crimiVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:42 Jan 29, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 H:\WORK\CRIME\041007\34527.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
34

nals in New Orleans would operate without fear of any punishment from the criminal justice system. 

POTENTIAL IMPACT—

We have over 200 officers of all ranks eligible for immediate retirement with 25 

or more years of service. Any additional significant negative impact on their working environment could cause a massive loss of these experienced members. 

PERSONNEL ASSISTANCE SUMMARY—

It is very difficult for the NOPD to set internal ‘‘benchmarks’’ on the release of 

assistance currently being provided by the Louisiana National Guard (300 members) 

and Louisiana State Police (60 Troopers). The LANG has worked side-by-side with 

the NOPD in the areas of the City most heavily damaged and least populated, to 

provide the extra personnel required to protect property where there are no ‘‘eyes 

and ears’’ of citizens to report activity. The LSP has provided high visibility coverage in the French Quarter and Downtown area to supplement the NOPD where 

the density of visitors and citizens is greatest. 

The current class of police recruits will be completed with all training by the middle of June 2007 and available for per permanent field assignments. Another class 

should be available for permanent field assignments in November 2007. These classes, coupled with an active campaign to attract lateral entry personnel, our most reasonable estimate we for this year is 100–120 new officers by year’s end. This may 

not offset the losses we expect of 195–210 (based on trends of last 2 years) due to 

retirements and resignations. 

We cannot expect the LSP and LANG to continue to provide personnel support 

to the NOPD indefinitely. Each of these organizations has their own individual missions to meet and have graciously given of their limited resources for far longer than 

anyone expected. Given the demands on the US military today, the extra burden 

shouldered by the LANG in New Orleans could have a negative effect on our military’s overseas missions. 

Twenty months after the storm, the NOPD is still operating in FEMA trailers. 

We have no HQ building. Three of eight District stations are still not repaired. We 

have no permanent Crime Lab facility (we moved to rented space at the University 

of New Orleans only last week), no Central Evidence and Property storage facility, 

no Special Operations Division/Traffic Division complex, no Juvenile Division holding facility. None of the facilities lost during the storm have been repaired/replaced. 

We are only a few months away from another hurricane season, which by all meteorological predictions will be active. We have an almost 50% likelihood of a storm 

affecting the city of New Orleans. 

The lack of critical police facilities and capabilities is not only having a deleterious 

effect on the presentation and prosecution of cases, it has eroded the morale of the 

officers who see their best efforts to combat crime stalled due to our inability to adequately test and evaluate the evidence and watch as the same offenders are repeatedly arrested and released. 

The NOPD is at a crossroads. We will never abandon our mission to ‘‘Serve and 

Protect’’ the citizens of New Orleans, but we are faced with the daily reality of an 

imminent collapse of our criminal justice institutions.

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Gusman. 

TESTIMONY OF MARLIN GUSMAN, ORLEANS PARISH 

CRIMINAL SHERIFF, NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Mr. GUSMAN. Good morning. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and 

Members of the Committee. Thank you for this opportunity. As the 

criminal sheriff, I am responsible for one of the core components of 

the local criminal justice system, the operation of the parish jail 

system. This responsibility includes providing the care, custody, 

and control of subjects housed in our jail facilities as well as the 

processing of all individuals arrested within the city of New Orleans. Additionally I serve as the Executive Officer for the Orleans 

Parish Criminal District Court, which includes the execution of all 

writs, orders, and processes, including warrants and subpoenas, as 

well as providing security for the court system. Ancillary functions 

35

of my office include, but are not limited to, law enforcement patrols, the operation of search and rescue, mounted, and K-9. 

To really understand how Katrina has affected our operations, 

it’s important to know where we were prior to the storm and where 

we stand now. Prior to the storm, the sheriff’s office operated 11 

jail facilities at near capacity with a combined bed space of approximately 7200 incarcerated subjects, giving it the distinction of being 

one of the Nation’s 10 largest jail systems. Of these 11 facilities, 

only four are currently operational. And included in the list of inoperable jail facilities are four of our largest: The Old Parish Prison, 

Community Correctional Center, Templeman Phase I and II, and 

Templeman Phase III and IV. Adding to our burden, prior to 

March 1, 2007, over 2,000 offenders had to be transferred to other 

jurisdictions due to the lack of bed space. This was an enormous 

financial burden because these individuals had to be transferred 

back and forth for court proceedings. 

Our intake and book operations have been significantly affected 

as well. We now process between 180 to 200 arrestees on a daily 

basis. This is in a facility that’s designed to process only 80. Before, 

we had a state-of-the-art facility, and now that facility was destroyed; so, we’re back to an older facility. 

Other components of our office that were also affected: Before 

Katrina, we had a modern kitchen facility. We produce over 20,000 

meals a day. Now, we have a facility that’s just a small temporary 

facility. We produce 7,000 meals a day. 

One of our primary responsibilities is to provide those that are 

in our custody adequate medical care, commensurate with community health care standards. Prior to Katrina, we had a complex 

medical system for our inmates. We had doctors and nurses. Now, 

we’ve lost a lot of that. As a result, we’ve been forced to scale down 

on-site medical operations, and we have to transport inmates to 

local hospitals for the treatment of injuries and illnesses. 

Inmate rehabilitation programs have also suffered. Before 

Katrina, my department ran three very successful rehabilitation 

programs: The ‘‘Blue Walters,’’ the ‘‘Francois Alternative,’’ and the 

‘‘About Face’’ program. Successful completion of these programs effectively reduced the likelihood of an inmate re-offending. Now, financial hindrances and limited infrastructure have closed these 

programs. 

In order for us to operate, we have to have these critical issues 

addressed. We need to restore our four largest jail facilities. We 

need to restore our kitchen. We need to rebuild a modern booking 

facility. We need to have increased funding to recruit and retain 

qualified employees. 

What can you all do? The United States Congress can assist us 

by working toward streamlining the remediation process. Cut the 

red tape that’s involved in this process. Authorize another round of 

Hurricane Infrastructure grant funding. Continue and increase allocation levels for Federal grant funding, including the Byrne and 

the JAG. Authorize another round of Community Disaster Loans, 

and you can forgive the prior Community Disaster Loans. The 10 

percent mesh that’s required by FEMA, we need to have that 

waived. This is critical for us, as we received well over $60 million 

36

in damage to our infrastructure and our contents, and the 10 percent mesh would require a big payment for us. 

In closing, I would like to express our sincere appreciation to the 

many individuals that have helped us in our recovery process. The 

people like the Federal Emergency Management Agency, James 

Stark, John Connolly, Jim Hill, the Justice Team, Judge Mark Roy. 

I would also like to express my thanks to the United States Department of Justice, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, U.S. Attorney Jim Letten, Mr. Domingo Herrera, for their assistance. The 

Louisiana Attorney General Charles Foti, and Louisiana Supreme 

Court Justice Kitty Kimball. This has been a very difficult road for 

us, and I appreciate all of the help that we’ve gotten. And I also 

would like to thank you all for joining us in New Orleans to hear 

our concerns about the escalating level of crime and the state of the 

criminal justice system. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Thank you, Sheriff. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Gusman follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MARLIN N. GUSMAN

The impacts of Hurricane Katrina and the flood resulting from the levee failures 

are far reaching and can only be described as catastrophic. Never before has this 

Nation experienced a natural disaster of this magnitude, which very nearly destroyed one of the World’s most vibrant and culturally diverse cities. The world is 

very familiar with scenes of the hurricane damage, immense flooding and the lives 

lost as a result of this tragedy. Now the focus is on the survivors, the citizens of 

New Orleans who are struggling to put their lives back together and rebuild. Recently, much of this focus has been placed on the escalating levels of crime in the 

city. Outsiders see a city with half of its former population with a per capita crime 

rate that is beginning to exceed that of pre-Katrina levels. Violent crime, most notably murder, is on the increase with close to 50 homicides to date in 2007. The crippled criminal justice infrastructure is struggling to deal with this serious issue. 

Progress in the city has been seriously hindered by the crime problem. 

As the Criminal Sheriff, I am primarily responsible for one of the core components 

of the local criminal justice system, the operation of the Parish jail system. This responsibility includes providing for the care, custody, and control of subjects housed 

in our jail facilities as well as the processing of all individuals arrested within the 

City of New Orleans. Additionally, I serve as the Executive Officer for the Orleans 

Parish Criminal District Court, which includes the execution of all writs, orders, 

and processes including, warrants and subpoenas as well as providing security for 

the court system. Ancillary functions of my office include, but are not limited to, law 

enforcement patrols, the operation of search and rescue, mounted, K-9, motorcycle, 

and SWAT units, community service programs, work release programs, and inmate 

rehabilitation programs. 

This written testimony will first address how Hurricane Katrina and the flood 

have affected the operations of the Orleans Parish Criminal Sheriff’s Office 

(OPCSO). I will then describe what work still needs to be completed and what resources are needed to complete this work. 

To adequately understand how Katrina has affected our operations, it is helpful 

to see where we were prior to the storm and compare that to where we stand now. 

Prior to the storm, the OPCSO, operated 11 jail facilities at near capacity with a 

combined bed space for approximately 7,200 incarcerated subjects, giving it the dubious distinction of being one of the Nation’s ten largest local jail systems. Of these 

11 facilities, only four are currently operational. Included in the list of inoperable 

jail facilities are four of our largest: Old Parish Prison, Community Correctional 

Center, Templeman Phase I & II Jail, and Templeman Phase III & IV Jail (three 

out of four of these facilities are owned by the City of New Orleans). The inoperability of these four facilities results in a loss of critical bed space for approximately 

4,100 inmates at a time when these resources are needed more than ever with the 

escalating crime rate. Also, it should be noted that our operating revenue has been 

significantly decreased since it is based on inmate per diem payments. Adding to 

our burden, prior to March 1, 2007, over 2,000 offenders had to be transferred to 

other jurisdictions due to this lack of bed space. This was an enormous financial 

burden because these individuals had to be transferred back and forth to Orleans 

37

Parish for court proceedings. On a positive note, FEMA resources have enabled us 

to construct a temporary modular jail facility that can house up to 800 minimumsecurity inmates. 

Our intake and booking operations have been significantly affected as well. It was 

projected that the yearly number of arrested subjects processed through our booking 

facility in 2005 would exceed 100,000 individuals. We were processing between 250 

to 400 arrestees in any given 24-hour period in a state-of-the art booking facility. 

This facility suffered tremendous damage and is scheduled to be demolished soon. 

Intake operations have been temporarily transferred to our old booking facility, 

known as Central Lock-up, located on the ground level in the House of Detention. 

This facility was designed in the late 1950’s and was only supposed to accommodate 

80 arrestees per day. Intake requirements quickly outgrew this facility in the mid 

1980’s. Now we are processing between 180 to 200 arrestees per day in a facility 

designed to process only 80. It is important to note that in 2006, well over 50,000 

arrestees were processed in this temporary facility (this figure also attests to the 

escalation in crime). With no other options we are doing the best we can to operate 

in this environment in a safe and professional manner. 

Other critical components of our office vital to operating an immense jail system 

were also affected. Pre-Katrina, our modern kitchen production facility produced 

over 20,000 meals per day. This facility was seriously damaged by high winds and 

the flood and remains, to this day inoperable. After we opened our first jail facility 

following Katrina (the House of Detention), all inmate and staff food had to be 

outsourced to catering firms as we had no viable means of food production. This was 

a financially burdensome choice but no other viable options existed. Thankfully, 

FEMA stepped in and assisted us with payments. Current food production operations are conducted out of a temporary kitchen facility, which produces more than 

7,000 meals per day. This is actually an incredible feat considering the fact that this 

kitchen was not designed to handle such a heavy workload. It should also be noted 

that the cost of basic foodstuffs has increased in post-Katrina New Orleans adding 

to our already stretched finances. 

One of our primary responsibilities to those that are in our custody is to provide 

medical care commensurate to community healthcare standards. Prior to Katrina, 

the OPCSO operated a complex medical system for our inmates. We employed many 

doctors (of numerous specialties), nurses, and other healthcare workers, and provided for comprehensive 24-hour care of sick and injured inmates. We operated a 

psychiatric tier and a psychiatric step-down tier as well as other psychiatric services 

for inmates with mental illnesses. A medical observation unit housed inmates who 

were sick or injured and a medical housing unit housed inmates with chronic illnesses such as advanced HIV disease and hepatitis. Both of these units were staffed 

24 hours a day by physicians and nurses. This was a significant benefit to us, as 

we did not have to transport these individuals to the hospital for treatment. They 

could be treated on-site. Unfortunately both of these facilities were completely destroyed. As a result, we have been forced to scale down on on-site medical operations and have to transport inmates to local hospitals for the treatment of injuries 

and illness that we used to be able to treat on-site. This is actually problematic for 

several reasons. As you are well aware, many of the local hospitals were closed following Katrina, including Charity Hospital, which had an on-site prison ward for 

critically ill inmates (it should be noted that we provided security for our inmates 

on this ward). Now, inmates requiring hospitalization or complex medical procedures must be transported, at great expense to the OPCSO, to the two closest public 

hospitals, one in Houma and one in Baton Rouge. In addition to the high transportation costs, additional manpower is required. As a side note, it should also be pointed out that local medical resources available to inmates once released from jail are 

lacking causing continuity of care issues. The loss of medical personnel is also a significant problem in post-Katrina New Orleans. 

Prior to Katrina the Sheriff’s Office employed almost 1,200 individuals. Now, current staffing levels are at about 700. It is very difficult to find and then retain qualified employees now for many reasons. The lack of available and affordable housing 

plays a significant role as well as the lack of schools and medical facilities. Many 

of our former employees want to return to New Orleans and their jobs at the 

OPCSO but are hindered by this (many of our former employees have also permanently relocated outside of Southeastern Louisiana). We, with the assistance of 

FEMA, have only partially addressed this issue by providing more than 80 trailers, 

on our property as temporary employee housing. Also, job seekers are demanding 

higher wages to offset employment and environmental conditions. The criminal justice system has been particularly hard-hit by this. The cost of recruiting and retaining qualified law enforcement and medical professionals have increased exponentially. Many former deputies have left the profession to seek employment in other 

38

sectors or have taken up employment with other law enforcement agencies that can 

afford to pay their employees higher salaries. Finding skilled laborers (electricians, 

welders, locksmiths, etc.) is also very difficult. 

Hurricane Katrina has also affected our court security operations. Pre-Katrina the 

OPCSO was responsible for providing security only at Criminal District Court. Now, 

we provide security in three additional court locations: Magistrate Court in the 

House of Detention, Traffic Court in the House of Detention, and at the temporary 

Municipal Court. This obviously requires additional financial resources and manpower. Another significant problem related to our responsibility within the court 

system is directly related to the inoperability of the Old Parish Prison. The Old Parish Prison was directly connected to the Criminal District Court, effectively reducing 

the need to transport as many inmates. Now, all inmates have to be transported 

in vans from the outlying jails to the court. This is a financial burden as well as 

a potential risk to public safety. 

Inmate rehabilitation programs have also suffered. Before Katrina my department 

ran three very successful rehabilitation programs: Blue Walters, Francois Alternative, and About Face. Successful completion of these programs effectively reduced 

the likelihood of an inmate re-offending. Now, financial hindrances and limited infrastructure have closed these programs. This is unfortunate, especially at a time 

when they could effectively contribute to the reduction of crime in New Orleans. 

Though much progress has been made in the 17 months proceeding Hurricane 

Katrina (with the assistance of many Federal agencies including FEMA, the Department of Justice, and many others), an incredible amount is still needed. In order 

for the OPCSO to successfully operate in post-Katrina New Orleans and to meet the 

needs of the criminal justice system, the following critical issues need to be addressed:

• The restoration of our four largest jail facilities: Community Correctional Facility, Old Parish Prison, Templeman Phase I & II Jail, and Templeman 

Phase III & IV. This would increase our capacity (an additional 4,100 beds) 

to hold some of New Orleans most violent and repeat offenders. Crime is increasing requiring more bed space. It is important to note that the City of 

New Orleans owns three out of these four facilities.

• The restoration of our permanent kitchen production facility to adequately 

provide for the dietary needs of our increasing offender population.

• Increase the availability of affordable housing for our employees.

• Rebuild a modern booking facility that can adequately accommodate the increasing intake volume.

• Increased funding to recruit and retain qualified employees.

• Increased funding to enable the OPCSO to purchase much needed equipment 

for our employees so they can complete their missions in a safe and effective 

manner.

• Need to expedite the recovery and remediation process between the City of 

New Orleans and FEMA so that city-owned facilities under the control of the 

OPCSO can be refurbished and placed into operation.

In all honesty, more financial resources are required to achieve all of these objectives. Only so much can be done with the limited resources available to us as well 

as our loss of revenue. 

The United States Congress can continue to assist us in achieving these goals by:

• Work towards streamlining the remediation process. Work to cut the ‘‘red 

tape’’ involved in the process. Change rules and procedures to expedite the 

flow of much needed funds.

• Authorize another round of Hurricane Infrastructure grant funding.

• Continue and increase local allocation levels on Federal grant funds including 

LETPP, Byrne/JAG, etc. These funding sources enabled us to purchase much 

needed law enforcement equipment as well as funding critical overtime for 

jail security and proactive patrol operations.

• Authorize another round of Community Disaster Loans.

• Forgive prior Community Disaster Loans.

• Waive the 10% match/deductible required by FEMA. This is critical for the 

OPCSO as we received well over sixty million dollars in damage to our infrastructure and contents. A 10% match would require a payment on our part 

in the amount of approximately six million dollars.

• Provide assistance to first responders so that they can afford to live and work 

here, as they are the backbone of the New Orleans criminal justice system.

39

Despite the major challenges we face, much has been accomplished following the 

hurricane and attests to our resilience and willingness to revitalize the City of New 

Orleans. Immediately following Katrina and the flood, we were able to evacuate well 

over 6,000 inmates (not to mention hundreds of civilians) without any serious injuries or a loss of life. This almost unbelievable feat attests to the outstanding efforts 

of the deputies and staff of the Sheriff’s Office. Less than two months after the flood 

we were able to open an 800 permanent bed facility, which helped to facilitate public safety in Katrina’s wake. Since Katrina, with the hard work of Sheriff’s deputies 

and staff and the assistance of Federal and State agencies, we have been able to 

refurbish and open four additional jails, including the temporary facility mentioned 

above, providing a much needed 1,700 beds. Numerous projects are underway to repair other areas of our infrastructure. With the assistance of FEMA, we have been 

able to construct a temporary Municipal and Traffic Court in one of our buildings. 

A temporary booking facility has been open for well over a year. In addition, a master mitigation plan is being created with the help of FEMA to provide for the survivability and sustainability of the entire criminal justice system should we be affected 

by another natural or man-made disaster of Katrina’s magnitude. 

In closing, my staff and I would like to express our sincere appreciation to the 

many individuals who have assisted us in the recovery process. First, the devoted 

employees of the Federal Emergency Management Agency deserve mention including James W. Stark, John Connolly, Jim Hill and the Justice Team, as well as 

Judge Mark Roy. I would like to express my thanks to the United States Department of Justice, particularly to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Jim Letten, and 

Mr. Domingo Herrera for their continued assistance to the recovery of the criminal 

justice system in New Orleans. I would also like to thank Louisiana Attorney General Charles Foti and Louisiana Supreme Court Chief Justice Kitty Kimball. I would 

like to express many thanks to the devoted employees of the Sheriff’s Office who 

have worked tirelessly to rebuild our department. I would also like to express my 

gratitude to the Louisiana Sheriff’s Association. Finally, I would like to thank the 

members of the U.S. House of Representatives, Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security for joining us in New Orleans to hear our concerns about the escalating level of crime and the state of the 

criminal justice system.

Mr. SCOTT. I recognize myself for 5 minutes. And thank you, 

Sheriff, for saying thank you for what we’ve done. We usually don’t 

get much of that. I know we haven’t done much, but we have done 

something; so, I appreciate your comments. 

Sheriff, you mentioned you had 7200 that you were housing before Katrina. How many are you taking care of now? 

Mr. GUSMAN. Well, we actually had an average yearly population 

of right under 6,000. We had beds for 7200. Now we house about 

2500. 

Mr. SCOTT. And how many—you said some of the units have 

been closed. 

How many beds do you actually have? 

Mr. GUSMAN. We have 2500 beds. We’re just right at capacity. 

It’s kind of difficult sometimes. We have to make sure that we 

transfer in the event of overcrowding. 

Mr. SCOTT. Well, you’re aware that many of the sheriffs that I 

know would be delighted to have the capacity census. Most of them 

are way over capacity. 

Mr. GUSMAN. Well, Mr. Chairman, it brings problems in. It 

brings benefits. 

Mr. SCOTT. What’s the length of the sentence, average length of 

sentence, of the people in your jails? 

Mr. GUSMAN. Well, currently, all of—virtually everyone that’s in 

jail now are pre-trial offenders; so, they are waiting trial, and they 

haven’t been sentenced yet. 

Mr. SCOTT. And do you have mental health resources? 

40

Mr. GUSMAN. We employ one full-time psychiatrist and two parttime; and we have a floor in one of the jails that’s dedicated to psychiatric care. 

But I’ve got to tell you that it’s really strained and stretched; it’s 

a difficult situation. Unfortunately, we pick up a lot of people who 

really deserve other care as opposed to being in jail. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Jordan, you mentioned the crime lab and records. 

Can you just tell us what the present state of affairs is with the 

crime lab and criminal justice records? 

Mr. JORDAN. Actually, I think the Superintendent knows more 

about the crime lab. 

Mr. SCOTT. Okay. 

Chief RILEY. As it relates to our crime lab, we just secured a 

lease with the University of New Orleans. We have taken over 

their old computer lab. We are going to begin moving in this week 

with equipment at the University of New Orleans. Our lab should 

probably be running at about 45-50 percent of its abilities over the 

next 30 days; but we hope over the next 90 to 120 days to have 

it up and fully functional; so, that’s a big move for us. As it relates 

to records, we did, in fact, lose some reports that were at three district stations that were wiped out the day of the flood. Those reports were probably less than 30 days old, but there were hundreds 

of arrest records/reports that were in there that had not been 

brought up to our record room as of the date of the storm. Those 

three areas were completely—those stations were completely overwhelmed by water, and we did lose those reports. 

Mr. SCOTT. Did the arrest records just disappear? 

Chief RILEY. Those were original reports that, yes, that had the 

details of the arrests. 

Mr. JORDAN. Now, my office has a Case Recovery Management 

Team that is funded by the Federal Government. That’s composed 

of prosecutors who look at the status of cases to determine whether 

they’re still viable today. These are pre-Katrina cases that they’re 

looking at. And this team has completed the vast majority of its 

work at this time, and they’ve looked at records and evidence 

stored in the courthouse and stored in other locations to determine 

whether those cases are viable. 

Mr. SCOTT. Chief Riley, you mentioned that you were not up to 

full capacity of employees. Is that for lack of money or for lack of 

recruitment—being able to recruit at the salaries you’re recruiting 

for. 

Chief RILEY. Well, it’s a number of issues. 

The majority of officers that resigned left after their families 

were relocated. Over the past 2 years, some of their families have 

reestablished themselves in other communities and those officers 

had decisions to make. 

And, so, we probably—we probably lost about 60 percent of our 

officers for that reason: They moved on. Their families, they lost 

their home; they lost everything they owned. 

Mr. SCOTT. Well, if they moved on, you’re not paying them. Are 

you unable to recruit and replace those? 

Chief RILEY. We have only been able to—we have just graduated 

a class of 38 recruits. It took us 6 months to get people through 

the system. The majority of people, as always, that apply did not 

41

make it through the process. We have a new class in place right 

now with 31 recruits; so, we have not been—we’re not anywhere 

near replacing over 500 officers that we’ve lost. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Mr. Forbes. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chief, I want to, first of 

all, thank you for the job you’re doing. I know it’s a tough task. We 

want to be there to help you, and we are reviewing the whole testimony; so, don’t think we’re not doing anything. As I look at this, 

though, one of the things that my good friend from Texas raised 

was that this beautiful building we’re in was a lake, I think the 

president testified after Katrina. But before Katrina, it wasn’t a 

lake. It was a beautiful building. It’s a beautiful building now. Mr. 

Jordan, as I looked at your office, and the criminal justice system 

in New Orleans, you really don’t want us to restore it back to 

where it was before Katrina because it looks like to me, based on 

the statistics we have, your office, it was broken significantly before that. I just want to ask you some questions about that. How 

long did you say you’ve been District Attorney in that office? 

Mr. JORDAN. Since 2003. 

Mr. FORBES. Well, in 2003, there were 58 desks per 100,000 residents. Is that an accurate statistic in New Orleans? 

Mr. JORDAN. I imagine that sounds correct. 

Mr. FORBES. Do you know what the national average was across 

the country then? 

Mr. JORDAN. No. 

Mr. FORBES. Wouldn’t it be useful if you’re talking about attorneys to at least know that national average? Let me ask you this: 

Your office only had—12 percent of individuals arrested for murder 

were sent to prison in 2003 and 2004. There’s something wrong 

with that system based on prosecution rates across the country. Do 

you know what the prosecution rates were across the country for 

murders and——

Mr. JORDAN. Well, Congressman, let me just say this: That I 

think that our conviction rate is consistent with other prosecutors’ 

offices throughout the country when we look at the cases that are 

acceptable for prosecution. And let me just expand on that by indicating that over the last several years we have improved on the acceptance rate for cases and prosecution. That number has increased steadily since—since my tenure in office. 

Mr. FORBES. Mr. Jordan, let me ask you this question: You 

can——

Mr. JORDAN. Can I complete my statement? 

Mr. FORBES. You—you can. But I’ve got 5 minutes, and, so, you 

can put anything you want into the record, and I’m happy to have 

it. And if the Chairman will give us more time later, we can look 

at anything you want. But—but we have one recent case where the 

murderer was actually caught on tape and wasn’t prosecuted. 

Mr. JORDAN. Well, let—let me——

Mr. FORBES. Explain that one. 

Mr. JORDAN. Let me speak to that. First of all, you were in error 

when you say that it was caught on tape. What it was, before the 

storm, there was an incident where there were three individuals 

who fired firearms at the car wash, and they did not kill the individual that they were shooting at, but they did seriously injure 

42

those individuals. And we had a videotape of those individuals 

shooting the people at the car wash. 

Mr. FORBES. Did you prosecute them? 

Mr. JORDAN. Yes, we did, and we got a conviction. In fact, we got 

a guilty plea; so——

Mr. FORBES. You got a guilty plea, or the Federal Government 

got it? 

Mr. JORDAN. No. My office got a guilty plea; so, I don’t—I think 

your information is incorrect. 

But that case is still ongoing. But it does illustrate something 

that’s very important, and that is a fear factor on the part of the 

witnesses. Even though those individuals were aware of the fact 

that there was a videotape, they were afraid to testify because of 

the fact that the individuals charged with this crime were released 

on bond, and they thought that they should have been behind bars. 

Now, we don’t control whether they are released on bond; but 

under Louisiana law, people have a right to make a bond; and if 

they make that bond, then they are back out on the street. Now, 

under the Federal system, there’s an advantage because it’s simply 

a question of whether they are considered a flight risk or a threat 

to the community. In either event they would have been detained 

without bond. But under our system, they were released on bond, 

and these people were afraid to testify. And, Congressman, you 

may not be aware of the fact, but the victims had to testify in that 

case. It was—even with the videotape, the victims’ testimony was 

important. 

Mr. FORBES. Can I ask you about——

Mr. JORDAN. I’m not—I haven’t completed my statement yet on—

on that particular point, because that case is still going on. And 

that was why it’s so important for us to have a Victim Witness Assistance program that helps us to transport people and provide 

some minimal level of security to people because we do have a—

a great level of fear in the city of New Orleans. 

Mr. FORBES. Let me ask you, on the release provision that you 

talked about: On your bail bond reduction hearings, is the State—

is the State present when those hearings take place? 

Mr. JORDAN. Not necessarily, Congressman. 

A bond can be reduced at a later point in time. Simply if a phone 

call is made and the judge feels that that person is not going to 

be a flight risk or a threat to the community. And that has happened. Most of the judges, however, do not reduce bonds, but it 

does happen on occasion. And, again, this is an illustration of the 

better Federal system because I believe that generally they don’t 

release people charged with these kinds of serious crimes. 

Mr. FORBES. But help me with this system. My time is up. I 

want to cover just a few more seconds here, that—that you need 

to explain. When—when a hearing, as I understand it, takes place, 

an individual defendant is brought before a magistrate. And in that 

particular situation, before a magistrate, initial bond is set. Is that 

correct? 

Mr. JORDAN. That’s correct. 

Mr. FORBES. And then, subsequently, the bondsman can call a 

judge and request that that bond be reduced. Is that correct? 

Mr. JORDAN. That’s correct. 

43

Mr. FORBES. And your office doesn’t even get the opportunity to 

be there to make an argument in that particular——

Mr. JORDAN. That’s correct, Congressman. 

We do not necessarily—we are not necessarily present for a bond 

reduction conversation that may take place. 

Mr. FORBES. Don’t you think that you should be able to be 

present? 

Mr. JORDAN. Yes, I do. And we have advocated that. We believe 

that there should be a contradictory hearing whenever a bond is reduced. 

Mr. FORBES. My time is up. Thank you. 

Mr. Jordan. 

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Chairman Scott. 

Chief Riley, let me ask you: Do you know what the current census estimate for New Orleans is? 

Chief RILEY. That varies. I think the latest one goes back to July 

of ’06, which were reports from a couple of weeks ago that estimated somewhere around 223,000 people. There was a demographer on the news the other night that states that since July of 

’06, that it is now somewhere around 270,000; so, we really don’t 

know. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Well, when you were mentioning you’d lost 

30 percent of the officers, I was trying to reconcile that with the 

reduction in population of New Orleans. And it sounds like a year 

later, the 223,000, was a 49 percent reduction in population; and 

now, being around 30 percent. But I know, you hear things. You 

read things. And I’d understood from the owner of a dealership 

here that, in an area that was not flooded, he was contacted and 

told, as Mr. Sewell, to protect his cars, the police had cut into the 

safe and had all of the keys to the new cars and that the cars were 

driven away to safety, and they still haven’t gotten some of those 

back. Is there truth to that? 

Chief RILEY. Well, I can tell you the officers did cut into a safe. 

One of Mr. Sewell’s employees was there giving out keys to his 

friends, who were driving off with the cars. Our officers on patrol 

saw that. We, in fact, stopped the thefts. We did use—I’ll be honest 

with you: We did use about 30 of those Sewell cars for emergency 

purposes, but we also warehoused 78 of those cars in the Convention Center, and probably saved him a lot of money, and maybe we 

didn’t save him a lot of money. Insurance. Who knows. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. But if they were warehoused, but they—it 

wasn’t necessary to move them, then I’m not sure I understand. 

Chief RILEY. When I said we warehoused them, we warehoused 

78—I believe over 100 cars were stolen. We used 30 of the cars. We 

warehoused about 78 of those cars that were, in fact, returned to 

Mr. Sewell completely undamaged. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Let me ask District Attorney, Mr. Jordan: How 

many prosecutors do you have currently? 

Mr. JORDAN. We have approximately—86, I believe, is the total 

number. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And investigators? 

Mr. JORDAN. I think we have something like 20 or so. 

44

Mr. GOHMERT. How—how does that compare to pre-Katrina? 

Mr. JORDAN. Well, as I indicated in my testimony, we had 92—

92 positions that were funded before the storm. And——

Mr. GOHMERT. You—that’s how many people were actually working there, or just how——

Mr. JORDAN. No. 

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. Many positions? 

Mr. JORDAN. 92 prosecutors. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Right. 

Mr. JORDAN. We have additional prosecutors—well, we’ve been 

allotted prosecutors for a Violent Crime Unit. There’s 6 prosecutors 

who are part of that unit. There are 13 positions that are actually 

funded by grants now; so, that’s—that’s a big difference between 

the way it is today and the way it was before Katrina. Those 92 

positions or so were funded by the State of Louisiana completely 

and not by any—there—there may have been one or two grants, 

but not nearly as many as we have now. And we also have Federal 

funding for a Case Recovery Management Team. 

Mr. GOHMERT. In all due respect, you answered my question, 

how many——

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. 

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. You had before. And—and we—we’re 

able to dig up the facts on how much the Federal Government is 

funding and how much should be funded. But you addressed the 

bond issue, and I’d like to go back to that. You mentioned that your 

office wasn’t even allowed to be present at some of the bond reductions. And I think in some material that we were furnished this 

statement is made, that New Orleans bail and bond release practices allow judges and other officials to receive payments of a certain percentage of release bonds. Is that true? Can a judge receive 

a percentage of a release bond? 

Mr. JORDAN. I—I—it’s my understanding that there may be a 

portion of the bond that goes toward some kind of fund that the 

court has. 

Mr. GOHMERT. That—I’m blown away. As a former district judge, 

I—I just can’t believe—so, what you’re saying is some bondsman 

who wants to lower a bond can call a judge, and if the judge does 

not lower the bond where an individual can get out, the judge—the 

judge gets nothing for his funding. However, if he lowers the bond 

to a rate that the bondsman would make, then the judge gets a cut 

of——

Mr. JORDAN. Well, I’m not saying that. I think that that—on forfeiture of that bond, a portion of it may go toward the court. That’s 

my understanding. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, that’s—that’s—I’m astounded over it. That’s 

incredible that a court would get a cut of the action of a bondsman 

if he lowers the bond to where the bond can be made. I also was 

concerned about, in State law, it says that—section 761 requires 

the arrestee be released if the charges have not been sufficiently 

substantiated after 60 days. In Texas we have an 180-day rule, and 

I—there were times when my hands were tied, and I had to release 

somebody if charges were not properly filed within 180 days. Sixty 

days, sometimes you can’t even get the lab reports back in by that 

time. Can you? 

45

Mr. JORDAN. Well, Congressman, that’s a very good point in that 

we have had tremendous problems since the storm because of the 

absence of a lab. And it has created a situation where a number 

of individuals had to be released because there were no lab reports. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, do you know if anybody is attempting to address that in the Louisiana Legislature? 

Mr. JORDAN. Well, we are addressing it here in Orleans Parish. 

We are doing it through a combination of things. The agreement 

that Police Chief Riley and I have entered into recently would 

allow for field tests to be conducted on those drugs, and then a lab 

report would be conducted or the lab report would be furnished to 

the DA’s office within 24 days after the arrest. And so far we—we 

had a number of field test cases; so, we hope that that would solve 

the problem along with the—the lab being in place in the next few 

days. 

Mr. GOHMERT. My time is expired. Thank you very much. 

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. I’m sorry. It’s just that I just introduced a bill in the 

Virginia General Assembly simply to do just that to allow the field 

tests to be sufficient for the preliminary hearing, but you need the 

real lab report for the trial. 

Mr. JORDAN. Yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. And that’s worked—I understand it’s worked well. 

Mr. JORDAN. That’s excellent well. 

Mr. SCOTT. And, Mr. Jordan, let me just clarify. 

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. 

Mr. SCOTT. You said that the court gets some of the bond released. That’s the court. That’s not the judge. Is that right? 

Mr. JORDAN. That’s—that’s the court, as I——

Mr. SCOTT. The judge doesn’t——

Mr. JORDAN. That’s not——

Mr. SCOTT. It doesn’t go in the judge’s pocket. 

Mr. JORDAN. It’s not in the judge’s pocket. 

Mr. SCOTT. I know in some cases they had, in the traffic crime 

in small cities, the judge would actually get a cut in the crimes; 

which I think was thrown out as being a violation of due process, 

when the judge had a personal financial interest in the outcome of 

the case. But that’s not what you’re talking about? 

Mr. JORDAN. No, that’s not. 

Mr. SCOTT. Forbes, you had another question? 

Mr. FORBES. Chief, once again, I want to thank you. Your—your 

testimony is very good about the morale of your officers, and you 

know those officers better than anybody. We understand the morale. But I have one question that wasn’t in your testimony. Even 

prior to Katrina, in New Orleans, only 7 percent of those arrested 

by your officers—out in the street, risking their lives doing stuff 

they had to do—were eventually sentenced to prison. In fact, the 

Metropolitan Crime Commission actually stated that criminal court 

judges in New Orleans were significantly less likely than judges 

elsewhere to send people, even violent offenders, to prison. You 

know your officers. Ninety-three percent of the people that are arrested aren’t going. Do you have any impact on them? Do you hear 

any feedback from them? 

46

Chief RILEY. Well, absolutely. I mean, you become demoralized 

when you arrest a person, especially a violent offender, and that 

violent offender has enough confidence to say to you that, ‘‘I’ll see 

you out next week. I’ll be out next week,’’ and then you see them 

out next week. So, there certainly has been and there are a lot of 

things that are being done to correct the revolving door. But there 

certainly has been a revolving door in our local system, and it certainly has been a problem for—not recently. This has been going 

on for 20 years. And that’s why we have been in the top 10 in violent crime for the last 20-25 years. 

Mr. FORBES. But, Chief, that’s why your testimony is so important because you pointed out there were problems before, and there 

are problems after. 

You—we want to correct all of them. 

Chief RILEY. Yes. 

Mr. FORBES. And we thank you for—on that revolving door, 

where are the problems? What do we need to do to—to help stop 

that revolving door? 

Chief RILEY. Well, I think that, first of all, Mr. Jordan and I, 

we’ve taken some steps with the 10-point plan. I don’t know if youall have a copy? That’s something you probably need to get if 

you——

Mr. FORBES. I don’t. So, I don’t know if you have one, if you 

could——

Mr. JORDAN. I have a copy of it. 

Chief RILEY. So, that will—that will certainly help, the 10-point 

plan that was in place. The 701 release rule, certainly hindered 

this department——

Mr. FORBES. Just for the record, people, that’s the 60-day rule. 

Chief RILEY. Yes, that’s the 60-day rule. You know, 180 days 

would be great, and it’s something that we may need to look into. 

But that certainly has hindered us. Not—not having swift trials 

have been a problem as well. Our police officers had to be better 

trained as it relates to report writing and things like that. So 

across the board, I think Katrina, in the aftermath, has revealed 

a lot of deficiencies; a lot of deficiencies that we are now working 

on. But, again, we do need assistance from the Federal Government to get some of those things done. 

Mr. FORBES. Chief, thank you. 

Chief RILEY. You’re welcome. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you all. 

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Some of—some of these do not require funding. Some 

do. Is that what I understand? 

Chief RILEY. Correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. Yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. Any other questions? Thank you very much. We appreciate your testimony. 

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. 

Chief RILEY. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Our next witnesses will be composed of 

the—we just had the State law enforcement officials. Now we’re 

going to listen to the Federal—local law enforcement; now we’re 

going to hear from the Federal law enforcement. And our witnesses 

47

will be: Beginning with Jim Letten, the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Louisiana. Prior to his current post, he served as 

Chief of the U.S. Department of Justice’s Organized Crime and 

Racketeering Strike Force. He’s a native of New Orleans and has 

graduated from Tulane Law School. 

Next we have James Bernazzani. 

Mr. BERNAZZANI. Correct. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. He is Special Agent in Charge—Special 

Agent in Charge of New Orleans Division of the FBI. At the time 

of his appointment, he was Special Agent in Charge of the New Orleans Division. He had acted as Deputy Assistant Director for 

International Terrorism Operations for the FBI. He holds a Master’s Degree from Harvard University. 

Mr. David Harper, Special Agent in Charge of the New Orleans 

Field Division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Prior to his employment with the ATF, he was Special 

Agent for the State Department of Diplomatic Security Service and 

a U.S. Army officer. He holds a Bachelor’s Degree from the University of Mississippi. 

William James Renton, Special Agent in Charge of New Orleans 

Field Division of the Drug Enforcement Administration. Prior to 

that, he was the law enforcement—he had his law enforcement career as a police cadet in the Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s Office. 

He holds a Bachelor’s Degree from Loyola University. 

And Jacques Thibodeaux, Acting Chief Deputy, United States 

Marshal, Eastern District of Louisiana. In addition to that post, he 

also is a military police colonel in the Louisiana National Guard. 

And that—John Thibodeaux, he has spent—military police in Louisiana National Guard. Spent 4 months on active duty after 

Katrina with the National Guard as part of the recovery in New 

Orleans. 

Mr. SCOTT. And we begin with Mr. Letten. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE JIM LETTEN, UNITED 

STATES ATTORNEY, EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA 

Mr. LETTEN. Thank you, sir. Good morning, Chairman Scott and 

Members of the House Subcommittee. I am Jim Letten, United 

States Attorney for the Eastern District of Louisiana, and it is a 

distinct honor for me to appear before you, representing the outstanding men and women of our U.S. Attorney’s Office and Federal 

law enforcement. I’m proud to serve our citizens with these men 

you see before you and with the leadership and professionals of the 

NOPD, with which we have had a long-standing partnership. I 

might add that serving as the U.S. Attorney in this district is a 

unique personal honor for me, a New Orleanian born and raised, 

with roots on both sides of my family running many generations 

deep. In fact, our family’s law enforcement commitment to this 

area includes my great-grandfather, who in the summer of 1898 

gave his life in the line of duty as a New Orleans Police Officer, 

while apprehending a wanted violent criminal just about four 

blocks from where I now work. 

It’s worth noting that prior to Hurricane Katrina, the city of New 

Orleans itself grappled with one of the highest per-capita homicide 

rates in the U.S. In fact, just a few months before the hurricane, 

48

at the Mayor’s Crime Summit Breakfast, I warned, and I continue 

to warn today, that the viability and even survival of this city will 

depend on the ability to control and reduce violent crime, to deter 

public corruption—which through years of endemic fraud, distortion, and kickback schemes has contributed to an enormous population business and talent drain—and provide a viable public education system, especially for our poor, and to diversify the deteriorating economy of the city. 

As this city re-populated in earnest, particularly in the spring of 

2006, our office—with our partners in FBI, DEA, ATF, and the 

Marshals Service and NOPD—aggressively pursued Project Safe 

Neighborhoods, a top priority of this administration. Indeed it is 

this very population return, including some of the criminal element, under severely adverse conditions that have resulted in 161 

homicides alone in Orleans for 2006. As of today, there sadly have 

been 61 homicides in Orleans Parish since January 1. 

We in the Federal system in attempting to address the violent 

crime problem, place particular emphasis on attacking drug- and 

firearm-related crime. During the last two decades, the drug trade 

in this city has largely been limited to low-level street trade, primarily engaged in by young men from poor areas, who either alone 

or in very loosely knit non-structured groups or gangs, sell drugs 

and violently engage one another and settle disputes with firearms. 

In fact, New Orleans does not suffer a traditional gang problem. 

In truth, however, the loosely knit criminal element of New Orleans is more difficult to identify, penetrate, infiltrate and control 

than structured organized gangs would be. What is most important 

for us to acknowledge is that the vast majority of these homicides 

and other violent offenses must be handled by the local criminal 

justice system, as they do not fall within Federal jurisdiction. We, 

nevertheless, have seen opportunities to act boldly where our Federal resources can be brought to bear, and we have and will continue to do just that. Despite our limited jurisdiction, we have 

made positive strides on the Federal level. 

But our crime problem here is a result of an extremely complex 

landscape and returning drug dealers and violent criminals who 

have chosen to return to New Orleans, in order to exploit dysfunction in the local justice system, including a now notorious revolving 

door. This revolving door alone has likely attracted an inordinately 

high number of offenders in relation to the relatively small population of the city, who if arrested on local charges, often anticipate 

being released either from prison or their bond obligations within 

60 days if formal charges are not filed against them in that period. 

Some 3,000 of these Rule 701 releases occurred in 2006 alone. 

That’s unacceptable. 

Further, despite a committed reform-minded Police Superintendent, which we have the pleasure of working with, NOPD still 

suffers many challenges which it has to overcome. In calendar year 

2006, our office, the U.S. Attorney’s Office, charged 358 individuals 

with drug, violent crime, firearm, and significant immigration offenses, producing 32 more indictments in 2005 despite the fact that 

only half the population had returned. In 2006, our immigration 

charges tripled over 2005. In 2006, our violent crime prosecutions 

increased by 32 percent over the previous year with a 98 percent 

49

conviction rate. Similar data shows a 100 percent conviction rate 

of immigration offenses and a 10.3 percent increase in drug cases 

filed with a 93.5 percent conviction rate. 

In total, between January 1, 2006, and today, we have indicted 

no less than 302 individuals on violent crimes and firearms related 

felonies with an additional 515 on drug felonies as well. Many of 

those cases have been made by the fine men and women of NOPD. 

But statistics do not even begin to tell the positive story of Federal law enforcement. The Attorney General himself has visited 

this city no less than six times since Hurricane Katrina; and during September allocated additional Federal resources to the area, 

including additional Federal agents to FBI, ATF, U.S. Marshals 

Service, and additional Assistant United States Attorneys. Those 

additional prosecutors include six specially detailed prosecutors, 

who are being reauthorized to me through the end of fiscal year 

2007, as well as nine Assistant U.S. Attorneys who have been hired 

to serve on our staff for 14-month terms. 

Additional ATF agents have been assigned to supplement it’s 

very successful Violent Crime Impact Team, and it re-launched its 

successful 24-hour ATF gun hotline. The FBI’s recently launched 

violent crime intelligence initiative continues to develop, maintain, 

and distribute information regarding both violent offenders for use 

by all agencies in connecting our efforts against these dangerous 

individuals. 

DEA, ATF, and NOPD are involved in a Targeted Offenders 

Project, in order to screen previous NOPD murder, armed robbery, 

and firearm arrests to identify those eligible for Federal prosecutions. And the U.S. Marshals have supported the highly successful 

Crescent Star Fugitive Task Force. 

Last September’s announcement of additional resources from the 

Attorney General also provided funding for a police athletic league, 

additional Weed and Seed sites and safe havens and reestablishment and refunding of Boys and Girls Clubs of America destroyed 

by the storm. This January, just weeks ago, we wrapped up yet 

again Federal efforts against violent offenders, to take pressure off 

the District Attorney’s Office and the local criminal justice system 

by Federally charging more violent crime and drug offenders, particularly in urban high-crime spots around the city. That hinged on 

small teams of FBI, DEA, and ATF Special Agents, operating in 

support of their partners, NOPD, in the field to identify cases subject to Federal jurisdiction. Since the first week of February, this 

initiative has produced some 55 additional individuals arrested for 

Federal drug distribution and firearm charges, 42 of whom have 

been indicted and all but two who remain in custody, detained. 

Also, the Attorney General provided additional ATF agents to supplement those permanently assigned to the New Orleans Violent 

Crime Impact team. And ATF has also obtained critical new ballistics testing equipment known as NIBIN, to replace the equipment 

so important to NOPD’s forensic ballistic identification efforts. 

Nine additional FBI special agents have been assigned to New 

Orleans to supplement those currently assigned to its wonderful 

Violent Gang Safe Streets Task Force; and specially qualified FBI 

agents around the U.S. were specifically recruited and assigned to 

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assist in the investigation of recent homicides and cold cases to determine which could be charged under Federal law. 

Special agents of the DEA were temporarily provided with authority to investigate and enforce all criminal laws in addition to 

Federal drug laws in order to assist NOPD more effectively. The 

Attorney General has also provided funding for our own U.S. Attorney’s Office, and this is important, to acquire two highly competent 

professionals to augment our already well-established, highly efficient Federal victim witness team to provide for protection, relocation, counseling, and other assistance to victims and witnesses of 

crimes, not only for the U.S. Attorney’s Office, but more importantly for local criminal justice such as the DA’s Office. 

And the Attorney General has committed up to $3 million in Federal funds to help establish and build a family justice center to address victims of domestic sexual violence in the city and surrounding parishes. 

In keeping with our extraordinary role, which you can see has 

gone far beyond enforcement, in November of 2005, the U.S. Attorney’s Office is one of the leaders in constructing what is now called 

the Southeast Louisiana Criminal Justice Recovery Task Force. As 

a result of this task force last May, BJA distributed nearly $60 million to Louisiana law enforcement agencies, some $30 million of 

which went to needy agencies in the New Orleans area. 

Just one of the solutions in which we in the Department of Justice have helped, along with our partners in local law enforcement, 

include the department’s allocation of critical resources to help secure the employment of critically needed crime lab technicians to 

support NOPD. To that, and through our efforts and those of many 

of our important partners, a contract was recently secured between 

the city and the UNO Foundation which, through an initial 3-year 

lease, will now provide NOPD with its own crime lab, and they’re 

moving in as we speak. 

We intend to replicate this year’s anti-gang funding from the Department of Justice in the Public Safety Housing Initiative, PHSI, 

which in 2006 helped our local partners make over 800 arrests of 

individuals threatening the highly populated west bank area. And 

as we move toward the summer, we are identifying the need for additional safe havens for our children built on Weed and Seed models. And with that worthy initiative, we have formed and are moving ahead with a broad unprecedented coalition of agencies from 

Federal, local, and State government, as well as the private sector 

and faith-based groups, with the goal of providing education, jobs, 

activities, and programs for thousands of at-risk youths. 

Because failure is not an option we must and will continue to 

fight relentlessly for public safety; for only then, with true commitment, integrity, vision, and patience, will we prevail. 

I thank you so much for your support, for what you have done 

and continue to do for us, for being here, for caring about this wonderful city. I also invite, if you would give me the opportunity down 

the road, when I have a chance to, to straighten the record a little 

bit relative to the Alton Hooks case because I can talk about the 

facts of that case, that evolution. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Letten follows:]

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JIM LETTEN


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Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Bernazzani. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES BERNAZZANI, SPECIAL AGENT IN 

CHARGE, NEW ORLEANS—FBI DIVISION 

Mr. BERNAZZANI. Good afternoon. Welcome to New Orleans. 

Katrina did not create the current landscape facing New Orleans. 

Katrina changed it. Notwithstanding the vast majority of law-abiding citizens in this city, New Orleans was a violent city before the 

storm, and it’s a violent city after the storm. Based upon a generation of aspects of failures and dysfunction of State institutions, a 

segment of society has been created which is disenfranchised. They 

have no opportunity. They are products of an educational system 

that didn’t educate. They are products of a State judicial system 

that failed to mete out consequences for criminal activity. They are 

products of levels of corruption that drove business away from this 

area, thus denying the youth meaningful jobs and the city a tax 

stream for programs. And when you add crack cocaine and the AK47, you have got New Orleans today. 

Not withstanding the challenges facing State and local law enforcement and the judiciary, Federal Government has stepped up 

to help, to support. It’s important to understand that this is not the 

federalization of New Orleans. NOPD is the lead law enforcement 

department for public safety in the area. 

The FBI with our law enforcement partners are stepping up to 

try to build confidence in the community, to cooperate, to have witnesses come forward. And what we are trying to do where we can 

is find the Federal hook. And where we have agreement between 

NOPD, FBI, DEA, ATF, and Marshals Service, we will bring these 

individuals to a very aggressive United States Attorney’s Office, 

who understand the rules of law and understand what quality of 

life means. And there is no revolving door. 

And we are beginning to build traction. We have a very strong 

outreach program with the community with NOPD and FBI. I’ve 

given you some of these cards that we’ll be passing out. It instructs 

people how to report information anonymously. Prior to this effort, 

the FBI received a tip relative to public safety once every 2 weeks. 

Now we’re getting a half-a-dozen a day, and we’re moving forward. 

I brought in nine homicide investigators from around the country 

to work in support of the NOPD homicide, to help plug holes in 

those cases; and, again, when we find the Federal hook, we’ll bring 

them to the Federal system, a plus to agents in the eight districts 

supporting NOPD, again performing nontraditional roles, working, 

riding along with NOPD. And, again, where we can find that Federal hook, we’ll bring them down to the United States Attorney’s 

Office. And this effort will continue. 

We have also set up a Multi-agency Violent Crime Intelligence 

Center, where we integrate the disparate pieces of intelligence designed to tell us what’s going on, who’s in town, what they’re doing; 

and by extension who’s out of town, and intent on returning, and 

what they’re going to do. It is very interesting what we see relative 

to what Katrina did in changing the threat landscape, which allows 

us to understand and move our finite resources, whether it be FBI, 

DEA, ATF, NOPD, and the like. And this will continue. 

78

So the fundamental efforts of the FBI in violent crime is that (1) 

from an operational operative—homicides and day-to-day street 

work; (2) from an intelligence optic—building that mosaic, understanding the threat landscape that will drive operations, identifying the baddest of the bad and going after those individuals and 

getting them off the streets, and hopefully getting them in the Federal system. And the third thing is outreach. No matter what we 

do here—we can make arrests until the cows come home; but if 

there’s 15 kids in line willing to take that kid’s place, who we’ve 

taken off the streets, then we’re going to be having the same conversation 5 years from now. 

I’ve passed out cards to build what’s known as the strategic 

peace. Everybody focuses on the tactical peace, law enforcement; 

whether it’s the arrests, prosecution, conviction, or incarceration. 

That’s all fine and good. We can lop the head off of this monster. 

But we need to get to those individuals 8-, 9-, 10-, 11-, 12-year-old 

kids, who may be involved in nonviolent criminal activity, breaking 

and entering, stealing a car. We need to get to those individuals 

and provide some sort of mentoring, some sort of opportunity so 

they won’t graduate to the 17-year-old shooter. And that’s what 

we’re interested in. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. Harper. 

TESTIMONY OF DAVID HARPER, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, 

NEW ORLEANS—ATF FIELD DIVISION 

Mr. HARPER. Thank you, Chairman Scott, Congressman Forbes, 

Congressman Gohmert, and Members of the House Subcommittee. 

We appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today and 

share some of the good work and contributions being made by the 

men and women of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and 

Explosives. 

As you’re aware, violent crime in New Orleans was an increasing 

concern well before Hurricane Katrina. Just months before the 

storm, the Department of Justice and ATF established a Violent 

Crime Impact Team, or VCIT, in New Orleans. Since August of 

2006, the Department of Justice has funded detailed assignment of 

between four and six additional ATF special agents to the New Orleans area. 

We believe that ATF’s contribution to the long-term solution 

must necessarily include focusing our resources on that relatively 

small group of violent recidivists that commit a disproportionate 

amount of violent crime. We’ve begun targeting that group using 

a four-point approach. 

First: Establishing an ATF/NOPD team to identify and target the 

most violent repeat offenders who have benefited the most from a 

disrupted local criminal justice system. To date, 71 individuals 

have been identified and investigations are under way. 

Second: Preventing the diversion of firearms from the legitimate 

retail commerce into the crime gun market through investigation 

of thefts from Federal firearms licensees and illegal firearms trafficking. 

Third: Reestablishing the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network, the NIBIN System, and the New Orleans Police DeVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:42 Jan 29, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00082 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\041007\34527.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
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partment crime lab and dedicating four special agents to investigate cold case serial homicides and assaults that are linked together through the use of that technology. 

Fourth: Actively adopting firearms cases from our Federal, State, 

and local enforcement partners for Federal prosecution wherever 

appropriate. 

Since the ATF VCIT was augmented by the Justice Department 

in August of 2006, cases against 108 defendants have been forwarded to Mr. Letten’s office for Federal prosecution by the combined efforts of the New Orleans Field Division. 

Gentlemen, I appreciate the opportunity to testify today and to 

share our progress with you; but we’re well aware that there’s—

there’s much work left to do. In closing, I’d like to specifically acknowledge the good work being done by Chief Riley and the men 

and women of the New Orleans Police Department despite the 

enormous challenges that they face. And I also look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Harper follows:]

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAVID HARPER


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Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Renton. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM JAMES RENTON, JR., SPECIAL AGENT 

IN CHARGE, NEW ORLEANS—DEA FIELD DIVISION 

Mr. RENTON. Thank you, Chairman Scott, Mr. Forbes, and Mr. 

Gohmert. It’s a pleasure to be here before you and the Members 

of the Committee and to have an opportunity to verbalize what the 

DEA’s contribution has been to the post-Katrina recovery of the 

city of New Orleans. 

Immediately after the storm, DEA Special Agents began—our entire office, 56 officers, became involved in NOPD, our partners of 

longstanding, in helping to patrol the city’s streets of New Orleans 

and maintain law and order. 

Since November or December 19—of 2005, after the NOPD was 

reconstituted somewhat, we assumed our more traditional roles. 

However we focused continually on the city and the violent drug 

traffickers that were affecting availability as well as the quality of 

life in the city. 

In January, we started a new program, which, at the request of 

the Attorney General, we were provided with additional authority 

to enforce all the laws of—Federal laws in the city of New Orleans 

and the metropolitan area. As you know, DEA is a single-mission 

agency, that’s only entitled to—authorized to enforce title 21 of the 

United States Code, which specifically refers to drug trafficking. 

DEA was one of the first agencies to implement the new program 

that we started on January 31 of this year. We embedded with 

New Orleans Police Department several of our special agents in the 

CAT Team, which is the Crime Abatement Team, which is a new 

strategy that Chief Riley initiated to try to reduce violent crimes 

in hot spots. 

We also embedded Federal officers with the New Orleans Police 

Department’s Special Operation Division, or SWAT team, to handle 

the most violent areas and hot spots in the city that—where crime 

was—was breeding. We also additionally sent people, three people, 

DEA special agents, to participate with major narcotics for the city 

of New Orleans, working in areas to try and quickly take drug 

dealers off the streets where they were selling drugs in the open 

market. 

Also DEA assisted the Sixth Police District in New Orleans, Central City, which is historically the most violent crime-ridden district in the city. We sent four Special Agents and ten Task Force 

Officers to that area to try and help remediate some of the crime 

situations. We’ve had a number of successes, and DEA agents have 

been on the scene or participated in effecting arrests of individuals, 

forty of the Federal arrests that have been made to date and prosecuted in Federal court. 

Also, we provided training to the New Orleans Police Department. Immediately after the storm, Chief Riley asked if we could 

provide leadership training, which we did, to every Sergeant/Lieutenant in the New Orleans Police Department. We did this in three 

separate sessions, with over 100 officers at each session. We 

brought in mental health professionals, law enforcement professionals, and assisted the NOPD with leadership training under the 

division that Chief Riley had. 

85

Later we had been involved in some intelligence initiatives, 

whereby we trained some NOPD officers as well as other law enforcement officers in the area of intelligence techniques. And we’ve 

entered into a partnership with the New Orleans Police and ATF 

to review all homicide arrests since the storm, as well as any arrests where a defendant was arrested with a weapon and/or drugs, 

to try and see if there’s a Federal statute which can be prosecuted 

in court. 

Ladies and gentlemen, I appreciate your attention, and I’d like 

to thank you for coming down here and looking at what the Federal 

Government’s response has been to crime. We have certainly responded to the situation. Like Mr. Letten, as a local native who 

grew up in the suburbs of this great city, I was shocked to see the 

effects of Hurricane Katrina. I was pleased, very pleased, to be able 

to help in the response. DEA is fully committed to the effort here 

and will continue to be so in the near future. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. Thibodeaux. 

TESTIMONY OF JACQUES THIBODEAUX, ACTING CHIEF 

DEPUTY, U.S. MARSHAL, EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA 

Mr. THIBODEAUX. Chairman Scott, Members of the Subcommittee 

on Crime. First, as a resident born and raised here in Louisiana, 

I’d like to take the opportunity to personally thank you for the efforts as—as we progress in the future. The——

Mr. SCOTT. Is your mike on? There’s a little green light. 

Mr. THIBODEAUX. The U.S. Marshals Service Crescent Star Fugitive Task Force was created in May 1999. Since that date, our task 

force has cleared over 3500 local, State, and Federal warrants between its inception and the day Katrina hit. 

In the days immediately after Katrina, the U.S. Marshals responded by sending Deputy Marshals to the disaster zone, with the 

primary goal of assisting local and State law enforcement. The key 

partnership was with Louisiana Probation and Parole, which resulted in the location of more than 2,000 State probation and parole fugitives whose whereabouts were unknown in the immediate 

aftermath of Katrina. Many of these offenders were the regions 

worst sexual predators. 

Although our task force was, in effect, shut down for 4 months, 

as local and State officers returned to their departments to conduct 

essential local and State law enforcement, the recovery continued. 

Our first step started with two of our core missions, judicial security and fugitive apprehension. The first partnership was a product 

of our judicial security mission. As we returned over 300 Federal 

prisoners back to five local contract jails, bringing much needed 

Federal funds to devastated local law enforcement. In the words of 

one sheriff, ‘‘We need every cent we can get right now. Our department lost everything.’’

The task force also reestablished fugitive investigation with the 

partnership between the New Orleans Police Department and the 

U.S. Marshal Service National Crime Information Center divisions. 

The U.S. Marshals Service conducted initial verification of NOPD 

warrants in the aftermath of Katrina. The NOPD NCIC Division 

also co-located in our task force work space for 13 months after the 

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storm and had some Federal local cooperation in the verification of 

fugitive warrants. 

As we continued to recover, our next partnership began in October of 2006 with the establishment of the U.S. Attorney General’s 

anti-crime initiative in New Orleans. We have four additional DUI 

U.S. Marshals Service personnel to supplement our task force, 

bringing our total task force number to eight full-time criminal investigators. Our task force is actively targeting fugitives in all 13 

parishes in Eastern Louisiana and tracking them as they cross parish, State, and national boundaries. 

In prioritizing cases for apprehension, specialized support has 

been provided by the Marshals Service Technical Operations 

Group, Financial Surveillance Unit, Criminal Information Branch, 

Internal Investigation Branch, and more important the Sexual Offenders Investigation Branch, as well as all resources from a national network of U.S. Marshals Service regional- and districtbased task forces. These units have assisted in the apprehension of 

numerous high-profile fugitives. 

As a result of these initiatives, the Marshals Service strengthened its relationship with all law enforcement in the region, locating some of their most wanted fugitives, including 20 of the 

NOPD’s most top-wanted fugitives and two fugitive cases that were 

profiled on America’s Most Wanted television program. Since the 

inception of the Attorney General’s Initiative, we have made 253 

physical arrests and cleared a total of 316 warrants. Eleven of 

these were wanted for murder, 17 for armed robbery, 11 for rape, 

10 for escape, and 32 sexual offenses. The U.S. Marshals Service 

is committed to the recovery of this area. As we are closing in on 

our task force’s 5,000th arrest, and we continue to protect the judicial system, the large influx of Federal arrests, our message is 

clear: We are in this effort for the duration. I look forward to answering your questions. And thank you again for your efforts here 

in Louisiana. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. Let me ask a few questions. 

Mr. Harper, you mentioned that you had identified 71 individuals who are committing a disproportionate number of crimes, and 

you focused on them. Can you say a little bit about what the focus 

was, and tell us how it made a difference? 

Mr. HARPER. It’s a—relatively new program we are currently focusing on. We have accomplished the first goal as identifying these 

people because we were obviously aware that there were a number 

of people who had been through the revolving door and had not 

been incarcerated; so, we’ve identified those individuals. We’re 

looking at the cases where they have been arrested to see where 

we may be able to use what they’ve already done to conduct historical investigations, conspiracy investigations. Or if that’s not the 

case, we may just target those folks as repeat offenders and—for 

proactive investigation. And we’re expecting our first few indictments in the very near future. 

Mr. SCOTT. You identified them. They knew they were identified? 

Mr. HARPER. No, sir. This is a joint project with the New Orleans 

Police Department, and their—original identification of some of 

these individuals was through data-mining of the existing system 

that the Police Department had. 

87

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Letten, you mentioned the Gang Safe Streets 

Task Force and Weed and Seed model. Can you elaborate on that? 

Mr. LETTEN. Yes, sir. The Safe Streets Task Force is, actually, 

an important component of what we know as Weed and Seed. 

The Weed and Seed model is something that actually has been 

in effect for a long time. We’ve continued it. 

We’re actually rebuilding our three Weed and Seed sites and trying to expand Weed-and-Seed-like coverage throughout the city 

post-Katrina. The Weed and Seed—the two components of Weed 

and Seed are the weeding, which of course is the law enforcement, 

increased law enforcement/presence/activity, arrests and prosecutions in those high-crime areas that are designated as Weed and 

Seed and recognized as funded Weed and Seed areas. To that end, 

we’ve gotten very good funding from the Department of Justice 

CCDO, and we’ve applied that to our Weed and Seed sites. 

The seeding portion, of course, transcends that. The seeding portion is the building of safe havens for our children and actually social services and activities for our children and residents in those 

areas to actually give them alternatives to crime. 

Mr. SCOTT. And what kind of Federal resources are going into 

the seeding part? 

Mr. LETTEN. Actually we are waiting right now. The Department 

of Justice is presently getting ready to provide for us funding for 

our Weed and Seed packages. Haven’t seen that 2007 funding yet, 

but we expect the commitment from this Attorney General and 

from CCDO, the Community Capacity Development Office, has 

been absolutely tremendous. And, so, we are—we’re anticipating 

from Mr. Greenhouse, and certainly from the—from the department, that funding shortly. 

Mr. SCOTT. The District Attorney mentioned Witness Protection 

as an important issue. Do you have the same problem, and what 

are we doing about it? 

Mr. LETTEN. Actually, there’s two—that’s an interesting concept 

because that’s really what most local prosecutors refer to generically as witness protection is what’s really more like victim witness 

services. When we think of witness protection, we think of the U.S. 

Marshals Service, a very, very effective witness protection program 

where individuals who testify against let’s say organizations, et 

cetera, who are at high risk and who fit into these categories, 

which are very few, are relocated and given new identities and 

things like that. 

Usually with individuals in urban situations, who are witnesses 

to murders and such, simply having fundamental victim witness 

services; that is, professionals who understand victims’ rights, understand their needs, who know how to apply the funding—which 

doesn’t need to be a whole lot—to those needs, knowing how to relocate those individuals and give them faith in the system, advise 

them of the proceedings and have those people safe and ready to 

testify; and then give them whatever short-term relocation or even 

local relocation they may need thereafter. That is what local prosecutors need, and that’s the bulk of what we use. We’ve got Donna 

Duplantier and Lisa Stewart are two of the best victim witness 

professionals that I can ever imagine. They’ve been extremely effective in our office in bringing to the table the resources that we 

88

have, which are more than adequate in the Department of Justice, 

to help with our victims. We—the Attorney General, though, has 

seen the need for help on the local side, and has actually allowed 

us—which I’m grateful for—to hire, which we’re doing right now, 

two specialists that are primarily going to be used to help do those 

same things to or for local victims, particularly at the DA’s office. 

Mr. SCOTT. Can you say a word about the crime lab? 

Mr. LETTEN. Yes, sir. NOPD’s crime lab was literally washed out. 

It existed in the basement of their headquarters. NOPD, thanks to 

the generosity, teamwork, and kindness of Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s Office, St. Tammany Parish Sheriff’s Office, State Police, and 

the Federal agencies sitting here, I will tell you, has been able to 

cobble solutions where their crime lab needs, in terms of serology, 

ballistics, blood analysis, DNA analysis, et cetera, are met and 

drug analysis. 

However, that’s not an adequate solution because if—they don’t 

have one-stop shopping. Our office and—and the Department of 

Justice, Steve Parent, who is now the acting EOUSA Director. I 

would daily communicate to the Attorney General and the DAG 

and their staff, including Will Moschella and those individuals who 

work with us, what we’re doing down here, the needs that have 

been identified. One of the needs we identified to them was a desperate need to get NOPD some crime lab services locally and on 

site. They came up with funding in the Department of Justice to 

pay for an initial half million dollar, initially, I believe; an initial, 

I guess, cadre of experts to actually serve those crime lab functions 

to pay for technicians. 

We are also working behind the scenes with some wonderful 

partners, New Orleans Police and Justice Foundation and others, 

who together, working together, and bringing the city together with 

the University of New Orleans Foundation actually we’re able to leverage and facilitate, and with FEMA I might add and Chairman 

Powell’s office who were so important in this, we brought them together and leveraged a lease, a 3-year lease that just occurred just 

a few weeks ago as NOPD, as Warren Riley, as Chief Riley mentioned, to move into some very good lab space there, which is being 

occupied, literally, as we speak, by NOPD. So Justice is paying for 

parts of the technicians, and FEMA and other sources are paying 

for the lease. And the bricks and mortar and hardware, we’re hoping that will take us down the road until we can get them more 

steadily established. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I want to 

thank you all for being here and the great job that you are doing 

for the city and for our county. 

Mr. Letten, you probably exemplify most of the people sitting in 

this room. You had a grandfather that had a commitment to this 

area in 1898. You love New Orleans and all that’s going on here. 

But people here deserve systems that work, and they deserve to be 

able to walk on the streets and be safe. And that’s not going to 

happen if we don’t look at all the problems that were there postKatrina and pre-Katrina. 

89

And I wish I had time to talk to all of the witnesses, but my 5 

minutes I want to address it to you two. Mr. Letten, the first question is to you, and then to Agent Bernazzani. 

My questions for you are these: We heard earlier testimony about 

the need for playgrounds and for parks and for other kinds of 

things that would normally be funded in large part by tax revenues 

from businesses. In part of your testimony, you mentioned that you 

thought there was a huge population business talent drain based 

on public corruption. And I’m going to ask you, one, to address 

that; and, two, you heard Mr. Jordan mention the fact that I had 

my facts wrong on this case that was not prosecuted. They were 

facts that I had based on video of the individual that was——

Mr. LETTEN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. Caught on tape. He said that there was 

a State conviction. Could you clarify that for me because I want to 

make sure I’ve got my facts right. And then the third part I’d like 

for you to address is this: when you gave your statistics, it seemed 

like about the lowest conviction rate you had was still 95 percent——

Mr. LETTEN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. From 100 percent. The flip side is on 

the State level we’re releasing that back out. It just doesn’t seem 

like the criminal justice system can work when you only take in 

7 percent of your arrests. 

Can you address those two? 

And then, Agent, if you could address this whole witness intimidation part of it because I don’t understand how you get witnesses 

to testify if they know that 93 percent of the people arrested are 

going to, one, be back on the streets. But then they have these 

bond reduction hearings where the State is not being represented, 

and you put people back on the streets with some percentage of it 

going to the court or to the judges. 

So, if the two of you would address that. And we’ll start with 

you, Mr. Letten. 

Mr. LETTEN. Yes, sir. If I can—I’ll try to answer those three in 

sequence then. 

The first one is I’ve—you know, I’ve—I’ve dubbed—and I love 

this city. God. I’ve dubbed the phenomenon New Orleans experienced as the East Berlin syndrome. First of all, let me say: The 

problems we’re experiencing now have been exacerbated by 

Katrina. They were not created by Katrina. We’ve been grappling 

with a lot of these issues for years. 

In the 1960 census—and I don’t have the precise numbers—New 

Orleans hit its zenith with probably 600,000 plus citizens; maybe 

630,000. That number dwindled significantly. We lost a population 

so that, when we were going into Katrina, we probably had a little 

over 400,000, maybe 450,000, in net population. That’s a significant 

population drain. 

More importantly, we lost large businesses that simply moved 

out of the city, large corporations. We diversified our economy. We 

lost talent. Our kids were graduating from schools and not returning to New Orleans. What was happening is the business phenomenon and I think with it the inability to attract and keep business was driven by the fear of corruption statewide and in the city. 

90

I, born and raised here, as a prosecutor for 27 years, I talk to people every day, and I’ve been approached by citizens. And we’ve 

done corruption cases—Jan Maselli Mann, our first assistant is in 

the audience today, she just brought home a significant public corruption case of high-level city officials who were involved, and it’s 

a kickback scheme involving energy contracts in the city. 

Over the years what happened is we were very tolerant of city 

and State officials basically sticking their hands out and requiring 

kickbacks for influence, for public contracts, and simply to do business. Businesses did not want to locate here. That contributed, 

then, that business exodus occurred, as job opportunities went out 

the window, our tax base, our revenue streams declined. We also 

did not provide, for many years, a decent public educational system. If you can afford private and parochial schools, great. But if 

you were the poor and you had to go to public schools, you had 

probably the worst public school system in the United States. 

So the economy was significantly deteriorating. And, again, it 

was driven primarily by corruption. Only recently do I believe—

after the conviction of Edwin Edwards and after a number of very, 

very important convictions here in Orleans and in Jefferson Parish 

where we showed a functional zero tolerance for corruption—and 

we’re still pursuing that—are we seeing attitudes—or we’re seeing 

attitudes about the city beginning to change. But it’s like turning 

an aircraft carrier around. It’s something that we have to do. We 

have to provide a zero tolerance for corruption, that has gutted our 

city over many years. 

And, so, going into Katrina, we had a significantly reduced population. We had a significantly reduced tax and revenue base. We 

had a significantly reduced industry base. We were relying solely 

on the port—which was declining, sadly—and tourism, which was 

very, very fragile. And, so, that’s the phenomenon that I was talking about. 

The second thing I believe you asked is the matter that I happen 

to know, is the prosecution of Alton Hooks. And I clarify the record 

not to be critical at all, but simply because I was involved in the 

decision to charge that case with my top prosecutors. 

What happened is, in 1994, there was a very celebrated, very 

widely known, case that involved a car wash surveillance camera 

that captured three individuals in, more or less, a shootout. It 

wasn’t a bad case. I mean, you could see one of the individuals in 

particular firing an AK-47 at another individual, trying to kill 

them, clearly. One of the individuals armed was a guy named Alton 

Hooks. These individuals were identified. They were arrested by 

NOPD, brought to the DA’s office. The DA’s office took the case forward, was having great difficulty—I believe they charged them 

with—and I stand to be corrected—with attempted murder or aggravated battery, or some significant State offenses. They were 

having difficulty with one of the judges for reasons entering into 

evidence, actually authenticating that tape and getting the judge to 

accept it into evidence. 

We—at some point, I talked—we follow these cases because, 

wherever we saw the need and the ability to step in Federally, we 

do. I instructed my prosecutors, ‘‘Find out which of those individuals are chargeable Federally.’’ Alton Hooks, one of the primary 

91

shooters, it turned out, was a convicted felon. I gave them personally the go-ahead to use the evidence we got and seek and obtain 

an indictment against Hooks for being a convicted felon in possession of a firearm. It sure wasn’t attempted murder, but it was a 

charge that we could make stick. 

In the meantime, as soon as the defense attorneys found out that 

we had brought the Federal case to bear, they wanted to negotiate. 

We had actually negotiated the possibility of a package deal, where 

he would plead guilty to not only the State—the Federal charges, 

10 year charge, but also a significant amount of time on the State 

charges. For reasons I—I’m not going to necessarily get into at this 

point, that was not accepted by the DA’s office at that time. So 

what we did was we proceeded. We went forward. It turns out that 

Alton Hooks, in May of 2005, before Katrina, pled guilty to the convicted felon in possession firearms charge, was later sentenced, is 

doing 10 years in Federal prison. After the Federal conviction, 

then, he wrapped up the State case by pleading guilty to a similar 

concurrent charge, I believe to—maybe to the attempted murder, 

with concurrent time that followed the Federal time. So, that’s the 

evolution there. 

Mr. FORBES. Let’s switch real quick. My time is out, but I think 

it’s important to get your testimony in about witness apathy. 

Mr. BERNAZZANI. I—I honestly believe that the revolving door—

for some reason because of this bond-reduction program, where a 

judge can set bond and another judge can reduce it to personal recognizance has a debilitating effect on the community to cooperate. 

I honestly believe that NOPD and the District Attorney’s office 

have been victimized by this program also. Because, Part 1, the violence continues because these violent guys that are let back on the 

street are violent people to begin with. Two, the community won’t 

cooperate because if I finger you as that violent felon I know in a 

few days you’re back on the streets and I become the next victim, 

and I don’t want that. And when the community senses a failure 

in the State Judicial System—and the revolving door is a failure—

a second judicial system kicks in: Street justice. And the killings 

beget the killings, beget the killings. We have a lot of revenge 

killings in New Orleans and it’s spiraling. This bond-reduction program has to stop. They need to implement a contradictory hearing 

program whereby if there’s an effort to reduce a bond, especially 

with the violent individual, that the people can be represented by 

the District Attorney’s Office to argue why that bond should not be 

reduced. It’s statutory. It’s statewide. It needs be to be done. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Letten, what is the Federal procedure on that? 

Mr. LETTEN. On the bond? We—in the Federal system we are—

we don’t have the—well, we don’t have—we don’t suffer a couple 

of those phenomena. 

Number 1, when an individual is arrested, let’s say, by any one 

of these Federal agencies in the field, that individual is—is—

what—the first thing that happens is that person is brought before 

a United States Magistrate Judge. Normally, that person is arrested with—a Federal complaint is filed either before or immediately after the arrest is made if it’s made—if it’s a reactive arrest. 

92

What happens is, our Federal prosecutors before—in open 

court—unless it’s a sealed proceeding—but with a represented defendant in there—actually produces, under Federal law, produces 

evidence, where we believe it’s appropriate, to demonstrate that an 

individual is either a flight risk or a danger to himself or others. 

There is a presumption under law that is created if that person 

is—is dealing drugs, dangerous drugs. And certainly, in the cases 

involving these drug distributors, we—we have an almost perfect 

success rate where an individual is distributing drugs or is a convicted felon possession or is using and carrying firearms during/in 

relation to a drug trafficking offense, we have a very good record 

where we can produce adequate evidence for those in—for those 

judges to hold that person and detain that person without—until 

that—charge is disposed of, unless additional evidence comes to 

light, until that—until the matter is over. 

Now, if the Court—if the Court or the defense attorney wants to 

reopen the matter and get a reduction, then there has to be an adversarial hearing. In State Court, the State Constitution, except in 

capital cases, requires that a bond be set. However, what happens 

is that very often, and less so now as a result of an evolution that 

occurred last year, it is possible for, let’s say, a Magistrate in State 

Court, Criminal District Court, to set a $100,000 bond on an alleged shooter and to have a phone call made to a judge—and most 

of the judges are wonderful. They really are. But to have a phone 

call made to a judge who may or may not get the facts and who, 

with the stroke of a pen, can actually give that person recognizance 

bond, or lower it to some bond that is so minimal that the person 

rolls out. And that was a terrible revolving door for a very long 

time, which plagued the system and—and turned back out on the 

streets some very, very dangerous characters, as Jim talked about. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. And we do appreciate all of you being 

here as well. A number of things have been discussed. For one 

thing, Mr. Letten, you had mentioned earlier that one of the problems was years of, and among other things, endemic fraud and corruption. 

You talked about the extent of that: public officials sticking their 

hands out; one businessman telling me that he was amazed that, 

not only do you pay a fee, but then you pay the person that’s collecting the fee; and one guy even was willing to take a check because everybody did it. That is pretty amazing. But the classic 

model, that they—in the past, have been violent crimes, murder, 

robbery, rape, burglary not necessarily violent, but those were only 

State crimes. 

Mr. LETTEN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And I was amazed over the years that people who 

were running for Congress and saying, ‘‘I’m going to go to Washington. I’m going to bring down the murders, the rapes, the—the 

burglaries.’’ I’d hear the commercials, but that—that’s a State 

issue. Here you’ve been helping, and I know laws have been passed 

to give additional jurisdiction to the Federal authorities. But the 

classic model was the States take care of the most violent crimes, 

local crimes. And if there’s a problem with corruption, that was the 

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heart and soul of, you know years ago, the Federal prosecutions. 

Since that appears to have been a problem, have you been involved 

in investigating, pursuing corruption, particularly post-Katrina? 

Mr. LETTEN. Absolutely, sir. We have. Ad thanks once again, 

thanks to, I think, some of the best Federal agents anywhere; 

thanks to some of the best prosecutors anywhere, who have an unlimited capacity for work; and thanks to my Attorney General, who 

has given us additional resources in recognition of these incredible 

burdens we carry, we have been able to continue our efforts against 

corruption. Am I—am I saying that we don’t have to be—you know, 

obviously, we have to be very careful about how we set our priorities and how we use our assets. Of course, we do. But we—our—

we have not faltered in our zero tolerance for corruption cases. As 

I said, you know, this case—we—there was a case against some—

some very well-placed City Hall officials and their associates who 

were involved in a very elaborate kickback scheme, who exploited 

a multi-multimillion-dollar, probably well over a billion dollars, for 

energy savings for the City of New Orleans. That case was—you 

know, a lot of people thought that, after Katrina, that case would 

kind of go by the wayside and we’d have our hands full with other 

things. Well, not so. As I said, our first Assistant U. S. Attorney, 

who’s also my Criminal Division Chief, actually went forward, indicted that case. We were prepared to go to trial in January, when 

those three individuals pled guilty. I believe there were a total of 

eight in that—and I could be wrong. It might be twelve—numerous 

individuals out of that same case, that corruption case, which was 

an involved kickback scheme, who pled guilty. The lead defendants 

name is Stan Barre. And that, I think, is emblematic of the type 

of dedication/commitment we have against corruption because we 

recognize that, unless we keep pressure up on individual who potentially wield the power, the corrupt power, to violate the law or 

influence business adversely, then we’re going to lose the high 

ground. And we can’t lose the high ground, and we won’t. And so 

we are there. We’re doing both, and we believe we have the assets 

right now to do that. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Let me, on a different note: Mr. Renton, with the 

DEA, what do you find to be the principal source of drugs in this 

State, post-Katrina? Where are they coming from? 

Mr. RENTON. Most—the majority—or 90 percent of the drugs 

here in the city are coming from the—unfortunately, Texas border, 

Mexican-Texas border, and is being transported. Historically, New 

Orleans has been a retail center; not a trans-shipment point, not 

a distribution point, but a retail center for drugs, where drugs 

are—it’s the ultimate destination of where they are being used. 

Houston was historically the source city for New Orleans prior to 

Katrina. That trend has virtually continued. 

That has been exacerbated by the fact that a great number of 

New Orleans residents, who may or may not have been involved in 

the drug trade prior to Katrina, relocated to Houston closer to the 

source of the drugs, and have made connections in Houston whereby they were able to get drugs in larger quantities and at cheaper 

prices, which are eventually brought to New Orleans and distributed. 

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Mr. GOHMERT. I was afraid you were going to say that was the 

source. I know from Texas law enforcement, I was hearing, you 

know, for example, we made it harder to get Sudafed; so, now we’re 

getting more drugs from Mexico to replace it. But I’m sorry to hear 

that they’re making their way to New Orleans. Mr. Chairman, 

could I ask Mr. Bernazzani——

Mr. SCOTT. Yes. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I heard earlier that New Orleans isn’t suffering 

from traditional gang problems. What is the gang problem here? 

Where is it coming from? 

Mr. BERNAZZANI. It’s a misnomer. There really are no gangs 

here, but it’s five letters. It’s easy to say. Basically what it is is 

drug-distribution networks based upon neighborhood linkages. It’s 

very horizontal in constructs. There isn’t a hierarchy of leadership/

membership/finance/communication to get into to a point where we 

can start a criteria investigation. But it’s a different pre- and postKatrina relative to these quote, unquote, gangs is that: The storm 

caused these individuals to be dislodged, as Billy was saying, over 

to Houston, Dallas, Memphis, and the like. And when they came 

back after they made their connections, they came back to a city 

that was about 60 percent relatively uninhabitable. And so they 

migrated to new areas, the least-affected areas. And that means 

the Garden District, Uptown, the affluent areas; on the other side, 

the Marigny, across the river into Algiers and the West Bank. So 

what we have right now is a population shift of a criminal element 

that’s trying to establish its presence and longevity. And, unfortunately, as Jim Letten has been saying, this segment of society has 

a strange outlook relative to social contact, how one deals with one 

another. And the resolution of conflict is usually violence, is usually 

a weapon. And, so, we’re going through this process right now. 

When you look at—you know, everybody talks about the population 

and the per capita. That’s very difficult, as Chief Riley has told 

you, because it fluctuates. What people need to focus on is the relationship and the percentage between the criminal element and lawabiding citizens. Prior to the storm, there were 485,000 in the city. 

You had a segment that was a criminal element. Many of these individuals after the storm haven’t been returning because of the 

slow progress of recovery. Many of the homes on the Lakefront, 

those are law-abiding citizens out there. Those who are returning 

are the criminal element that’s feeling the State Judicial system of 

Texas or Florida or Tennessee. And they want to come back here 

where they enjoy the revolving door. So, post-Katrina, when you 

look at the percentage of the criminal element vis-a-vis the total 

population of those law-abiding citizen, it’s fundamentally different; 

and, unfortunately, it shifts toward the criminal element. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. 

Mr. LETTEN. Can I correct the record, sir, for—I thought about 

something, and please indulge me if I put a ‘‘b’’ when there should 

have been an ‘‘m’’ before, when I was talking about the city savings 

contract. I really want to be very careful about the record. When 

I talked about the city savings contract and its corruption case, I 

believe it was—it was a multi-year contract, that was many millions of dollars. 

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It was not a billion dollars. I think it was something like $30 million or whatever. I probably would have remembered that had I not 

walked in here today trying to keep everything else in my head. 

But that was an inadvertent misstatement on the base. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Still a lot of zeros. 

Mr. LETTEN. Oh, it’s a lot of zeros, yes, sir. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. FORBES. Thank you. 

Mr. LETTEN. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. And we’ll ask our next panel to come forward. We 

will come to order and welcome our next panel. 

First, we have the Honorable Ernestine Gray, Judge of the New 

Orleans Parish Juvenile Court. She serves as the 57th President of 

the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges. She 

holds a Law Degree from Louisiana State University School of 

Law, and has the added distinction of having a sister who is a 

judge in my district in Virginia. Judge Gray, it’s good to see you. 

Judge GRAY. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Our next witness will be Howard Osofsky, Professor 

and Chair, Department of Psychiatry, at Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center. In addition to the current post, he also 

serves as Co-director of the Louisiana Rural Trauma Services Center. He received a Medical Degree from New York State College of 

Medicine, and a Doctorate in Psychology from Syracuse University. 

Next will be Reverend John Raphael, Pastor of New Hope Baptist Church in New Orleans. He was educated in the city, where 

he attended Dillard, Loyola, Southern University. He also has a 

Bachelor’s Degree from Christian Bible College. 

Our final witness will be Peter Scharf, Research Professor of 

Criminal Justice at Texas State University. He is also Executive 

Director of the Center for Society, Law, and Justice, which he 

founded at the University of New Orleans. Previously served as Director of Technology and Technical Assistance at the Police Foundation in Washington DC, where he helped found the Bureau of 

Justice Assistance Community Policing Consortium and developed 

its Risk Management Management System. He holds a Doctorate 

of Education Degree from Harvard University and has the added 

distinction of having a daughter who lives in my district. Thank 

you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Judge Gray. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE ERNESTINE GRAY, JUDGE, 

ORLEANS PARISH JUVENILE COURT, LOUISIANA 

Judge GRAY. Thank you, and good afternoon. It is my honor to 

be here to speak before the Committee this afternoon. A lot of what 

I would want to have said to you has already been said; so, it’s 

going to be emphasis and reemphasizing. I’d like to start off by 

quoting a police officer who was quoted in an article in the Times 

Picayune on Sunday, entitled, ‘‘Losing Juvenile Jails - Age Justice 

Some Say - Alternative Sought for Young Offenders’’; an article by 

Katy Reckdal. 

Mr. SCOTT. Could you move your mike a little closer? 

Judge GRAY. Sure. And Officer Melvin Gilbert said, ‘‘If we do 

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stein said it differently: ‘‘Insanity is doing the same thing over and 

over and expecting different results.’’

Indeed Hurricane Katrina presented those of us living in New 

Orleans with crisis and opportunity. Every day, as we are still 

dealing with the crisis, we are trying very hard to make use of, and 

maximize, the opportunities. In order to effectively talk about postKatrina, one must have some appreciation of pre-Katrina. 

Youth in Louisiana are subject to a significantly higher level of 

significant risk factors than the national average; and children in 

New Orleans are at even greater risk. According to the Annie 

Casey Foundation’s Kids Count, an Agenda for Children, Louisiana 

ranks 49 out of the 50 States in terms of overall child welfare; and 

the city of New Orleans consistently ranked lower than the State 

as a whole. Louisiana ranked 49 in the country for the number of 

children living in poverty, with 26.6 percent of all children in Louisiana living in poverty. In New Orleans, 40.5 percent of children 

lived in poverty. Louisiana was 49 in low-birth-weight babies. New 

Orleans had a higher percentage than the State as a whole: 10.1 

versus 5.7. Louisiana ranked 41 in the percentage of teens who are 

high school dropouts. Again, New Orleans children were at higher 

risk. Fifteen percent of 16- to 19-year-olds in New Orleans were 

high school dropouts, compared to 10 percent statewide. 

As summer approaches, and the anticipated school vacation, coupled with a lack of recreational activities and other proactive factors, suggest to the Orleans Parish Criminal Court that the number of arrests for delinquent behavior—both representative of normal adolescence and actual crimes—may significantly increase. It 

is not my purpose to sound alarmist, because I believe on the whole 

that the news about our youth, those 17 years and under, is positive. 

In fact, prior to Hurricane Katrina, based on information from 

the New Orleans Police Department, the Juvenile Division, we 

were beginning to see some modest decline in juvenile delinquency 

and status offenses. For example, the Juvenile Division reported a 

6 percent decrease in curfew violations, a 35 percent decrease in 

truants, and a 12 percent decrease in juvenile arrests, when comparing the first 8 months, January to August, of 2004 and 2005. 

During 2006, there were approximately 870 arrests for delinquent behavior which resulted in 347 new delinquency filings in 

the Orleans Parish Juvenile Court. The breakdown of the arrests 

by crimes was as follows: Possession of marijuana 120, or 14 percent; those children arrested on warrants, 101, or 12 percent; criminal trespass, 71, or 8 percent; disturbing the peace and simple battery, 63, or 7 percent; possession of crack cocaine and curfew and 

other offenses 53; or 6 percent; resisting arrest and distribution of 

crack cocaine, 47, or 5 percent; murder, out of the 161 total for the 

year, 3 of children who were under 17, 2 at age 16, 1 at age 15—

armed robbery, 12, or 0.013 percent; gun possession arrest, 38, or 

0.04 percent. 

While the numbers for the first quarter of 2007 seem to be on 

the increase, based on the number of petitions that have been filed 

with the Court, we do not yet have the arrest data from which the 

police—from the Police Department, by which we could give the 

same percentages. 

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Other pieces of demographic information which the Committee 

might find interesting is that African American youth are 98 percent of those youth arrested in New Orleans; Whites represent 1 

percent; and Asians are 0.002 percent. The breakdown by sex of African American youth is 76 percent male and 22 percent female. 

Further, our best information indicates that youths between the 

ages of 15 and 17 are responsible for most of the delinquent behavior committed by youth in our city. 

I would be remiss if I did not say, as we worry about delinquent 

youth, we must also be concerned about those youth who, most 

times through no fault of their own, find themselves in foster care. 

Youth growing up in foster care face a broad range of challenges 

are, and are at high risk for delinquent behavior. It is well documented that many adult prisoners have a history of childhood 

abuse and neglect. 

Given all of the above, here are important takeaways for this 

Subcommittee: The progress that has been made in the juvenile 

area could not have been made without the support of the Federal 

Government, and we will more than likely continue to need your 

support for some time in the future. We have come a long way in 

bringing stake holders together, capitalizing on the juvenile reform 

efforts that started in the State prior to Hurricane Katrina. And 

we are assessing our needs, but we are just beginning the dialogue 

of how our system should operate. We are looking to the National 

Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges Delinquency Resource Guidelines, and the eight core strategies of the Annie 

Casey’s Juvenile Detention Alternative Initiatives to provide much 

of the blueprint for how we will work in the future. 

As we continue to work to build a better, more responsive citizen, 

there are some critical issues that we must address: data collection, 

disproportionate minority confinement, continued meaningful collaboration, alternatives to incarceration, development of Continuum of Care, as well as addressing the conditions of confinement. 

Our programs are good, but under-funded. As we’re trying to live 

and work in post-Katrina New Orleans, many of our services are 

not back in place. Our programs are at capacity, with smaller caseloads overall. There are too few programs under Continuum of 

Care that should be in place as any community is trying to ensure 

that its youth population has the best chance of becoming healthy, 

productive adults and contributing citizens. We are lacking critical 

services for families in our communities, particularly mental health 

and substance abuse. 

As we work hard to improve the system, protect the community, 

and hold juveniles accountable, we must not forget that we worry 

about what a child will become tomorrow, but we cannot forget 

that he is someone today. 

I would urge Congress to continue to ensure the existence of the 

Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, which will 

come up for reauthorization this year. 

You might wonder why a Judge sitting in New Orleans would see 

that as important. I will tell you. Someone asked about programs 

that work. My information is that we in the juvenile arena are able 

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vention that talks about what are the best practice, what are the 

programs that work, because they have published and continued 

research and evaluating programs and put out in the field for replication those things that work; so, I would urge our continued support of that office. I would also urge, as someone else has mentioned, the continuation of Byrne funds that are available to communities, come to New Orleans, to the State of Louisiana, that 

would support the criminal justice system through funding. I would 

urge you to continue to support that. 

In closing, I would say that prevention, I believe, is the key. We 

do not soothe a victim; we cannot take away the pain of a victim 

after the crime is committed. The way we stop them from hurting, 

the way we make it better for them, is to do whatever we can, everything that we can, to prevent the crime, to event the harm, in 

the first place. That is how we serve our citizens. That is how we 

serve our children. That is how we serve our community. And that 

is how we serve our Nation. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

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Mr. SCOTT. Dr. Osofsky. 

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD J. OSOFSKY, CHAIR, LOUISIANA 

STATE UNIVERSITY HEALTH SCIENCES CENTER, DEPARTMENT OF PSYCHIATRY, NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Dr. OSOFSKY. Chairman Scott, thank you for the opportunity to 

be here and testify to the Committee. In addition to being the 

Chair of Psychiatry at LSU Health Sciences Center and Co-Director of the Louisiana Rural Trauma Services Center, since Hurricane Katrina, the State asked me, ‘‘in my spare time,’’ to be the 

Clinical Director of Louisiana Spirit, the crisis counseling and our 

regular services counseling provided under the Stafford Act. I also 

would like to say that, as we try to assist the community in rebuilding infrastructure, I am grateful to our faculty. Even with pay 

cuts, with furloughs, with still no offices, we’ve been able to retain 

almost all of our faculty and add new faculty. And at the time 

when the Federal Government did its survey, whereas prior to the 

hurricane we were probably 8 percent of the psychiatrists in the 

City; since the hurricane, when they did the survey, we were probably a minimal of 60 to 70 percent, and with other mental health 

professionals on our faculty. We have retained full resident training, child resident training, psychology training, social work training; and, as I said, I’m truly grateful for the people who work with 

us in, what I know is our current difficult environment. 

Although I will not reiterate what’s been stated before, as a 

member of the Board of the New Orleans Police and Justice Foundation, I’m certainly aware and appreciative of the efforts that are 

being made throughout our city with the support of our Federal 

Government. 

Let me just focus briefly on the mental health perspective. Many 

problems are apparent. The slow recovery of our community with 

overcrowding, economic loss, difficulty in rebuilding, and concerns 

about safety, contribute to demoralization. Although, we recognize 

the importance of family structure and support, members of the 

community at large, including First Responders, are living with ongoing family stresses and what is clearly apparent, is an increase 

in family conflict and divorce. 

At the present time, actually, our department, without full funding, is working in the police districts, in firehouses, in EMS headquarters, and also providing confidential offsite services at no cost 

to First Responders and their families to try and help. We certainly 

have a very high percentage of appreciation and response involving 

these service. 

I would also mention as a contributor to stress, that drugs are 

a significant problem in our community. I would even say that 

based on one of the NIDA grants in the community it’s apparent 

that drug dealers have returned with purer and less-expensive 

drugs. There is the issue of competition; the fewer number of people available to buy drugs has been an important factor. A high 

percentage of arrests are drug-related, compounded by anger, retaliation, and the other issues that are inherent within the drug trafficking system. Police officers not only face stresses in their daily 

work, but increased danger related to the violent crimes and frequent drug-related crimes. Further their commitment to fighting 

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nightly crimes and other responsibilities makes it less likely they 

can be involved in preventative measures, such as picking up 

young people who are inappropriately on the street at night and 

who should be taken to the curfew center. 

The need to rebuild mental health infrastructure is critical. 

There is a desperate need for a crisis intervention unit, inpatient 

psychiatric beds, especially those that can address co-occurring disorders of substance abuse and mental health, and an appropriate 

system of care within the community. Our somewhat reduced police 

force picks up a greater percentage of patients who are suicidal or 

severely mentally impaired. They frequently need to drive 30 minutes to an emergency room and then wait a minimum of 1 hour, 

sometimes as long as 5 hours, for transfer. At times, officers and 

emergency medical technicians report not only the demoralization, 

which we’re hearing a great deal about, but demoralization relating 

to some of these issues and how they can face them. 

Sending patients to other parts of the State, as is often proposed, 

is not an answer. Without a system of care and full family participation, the likelihood of recidivism is much greater. It is very important that zero tolerance be maintained. However we must address the problems of community recovery meeting the needs of 

young people in our community who have endured much trauma. 

Together with schools, our department has now completed over 

10,000 evidence-based needs assessments, helping schools with returning students of all ages in Orleans Parish, St. Bernard, and 

Plaquemines Parishes. Although resilient, in some areas as high as 

45 percent of the children and adolescents meet the cutoff scores 

for mental health services on these evidenced-based measures. 

With the younger children, whose parents complete the measures, 

over 30 percent of the parents request help for their children and 

themselves. 

Family-based services are crucial at this time. A considerable 

number of adolescents are living on their own, away from home, 

away from parents, in order to be back in the community and attend schools. They are living on their own frequently as a result 

of overcrowding in trailers and parents not being able to return because of employment issues and housing issues, both of which result in inadequate supervision. With overcrowding, children and 

adolescents are also exposed to more fighting and family disputes. 

Adolescents have described being unable to talk to parents who 

are themselves overwhelmed or with other adults who may also be 

stressed. 

Returning students are often in reconstituted schools with fewer 

consistent friends and also fewer teachers whom they know from 

the past. Rival groups of children and adolescents are frequently 

brought together under one roof with little to do after school or on 

weekends in devastated areas. I can tell you about the numbers of 

students, excuse me, adolescents where their activity at night can 

be driving a car up and down the street in devastated areas, with 

really very little for them to do as far as services, normal activities. 

Take a look at this and the use of drugs, alcohol, and risk-taking 

behaviors. Schools have reported an increase in fighting, bullying, 

and have described their concerns about risk-taking behaviors. 

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There are very few programs planned for the summer because of 

limited resources. 

There is a need for the development of positive programs such 

as the Youth Leadership Program that Judge Gray and the Sheriff 

and our department worked on for a number of years with students 

on the brink of disaster, who were being expelled from schools, 

even from alternative schools. 

We also have an extremely positive Youth Leadership Program, 

with ordinary students helping them to help other students help 

others in the community, do service; and in the process, to function 

much better in school in their families, and in the communities. 

There’s also the Cops for Kids Program, with which we’ve worked 

actively for years in the summer; but, again, with reduced funding 

and numbers for students——

Mr. SCOTT. Did you say Cops for Kids? 

Dr. OSOFSKY. Cops for Kids. It’s a collaboration between the New 

Orleans police department, our department, teachers, and New Orleans Police and Justice Foundation, to help young people who normally lived in housing developments to have better summer experiences, learn to trust the police, have different types of activities 

and counseling—with again, excellent results. 

Mr. SCOTT. And if you could summarize. 

Dr. OSOFSKY. Okay. Unless we address prevention and early 

intervention, we will not allow our youth to fulfill their potential. 

In both the short- and long-term, lack of attention to prevention 

and early intervention activities will contribute to delinquency, 

crime, substance abuse, and violence. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The background information of Mr. Osofsky follows:]

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BACKGROUND INFORMATION OF HOWARD J. OSOFSKY


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Mr. SCOTT. Reverend Raphael. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN RAPHAEL, PASTOR, NEW HOPE

BAPTIST CHURCH, NEW ORLEANS, LA 

Reverend RAPHAEL. Good afternoon. I am honored this afternoon 

to have the opportunity to speak to this Committee concerning this 

important matter. Hurricane Katrina and subsequent flooding of 

New Orleans did at least two things to us in the city. First of 

which although shamefully revealing if responded to in an inadequate matter can result in New Orleans becoming a perfect model 

of all that is great in America. The second of which has intensified 

pre-Katrina problems and if not responded to adequately, will result in New Orleans becoming a perfect model of all that is wrong 

with America. 

The first thing that Katrina did was expose years of neglect in 

areas already mentioned today, such as education, housing, job opportunities with livable wages, and most onerous, among other 

things, adequate flood protection. While most of the New Orleans 

pre-Katrina problems were not unique to our city, what is unique 

is the level of national and indeed international compassion and 

concern both for our city and its citizens in response to the Katrina 

catastrophe. I pray that the heart-felt concerns of your constituents 

across America will serve as the impetus for Congressional Commitment to provide the resources to bring New Orleans, not back 

to its pre-Katrina condition, but forward to its post-Katrina potential. 

But while this city without the experience of Katrina may have 

been able to continue for many years, continue to limp socially, 

educationally, and economical, while garbed in the Mardi Gras 

masquerade of a city in which all was well. The social aftermath 

of Katrina has produced a paralyzing hopelessness upon a large 

portion of our population. The communities of New Orleans which 

have been most affected by violent crimes are, to a large degree, 

populated by individuals whose frustrations are reflected in the recently reported statement of one of our trailer-bound senior citizens. Her disheartening declaration was that ‘‘Sometimes I feel 

that I am in the world all by myself.’’

I have personally seen to far too many murder scenes on the 

streets of New Orleans where the response at the scene always 

seems to be the same: a family member of the victim, broken-hearted and distraught, crying out for someone to step forth and tell 

what happened, while the dispassionate crowd stands by tearlessly 

and silently until the body is taken away. A great number of those 

homicides have occurred in the middle of the day and in highly 

populated residential areas in New Orleans. 

And it has been my observation that both the boldness of violent 

offenders and the lack of response by witnesses, somehow is connected to, among other things, the perception that the lives of certain members of our communities are not valuable. Although this 

toxic and self-devaluing perception is one which finds its roots in 

a long-ago ended slave-driven economy and, more recently, for 

years, been nursed on the pads of social neglect, the initial response, or rather lack of response to Katrina victims has injected 

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diate action suffered by the economically disenfranchised of our 

city, most of whom were African Americans, declared dishonestly, 

but distinctly, to those individuals that their lives were of little or 

no value. 

The failure to provide or at least to promise hope of adequate 

housing and economic opportunities for the poorest of those affected by Katrina perpetuates the perception that those individuals 

are of little or no value. And as a consequence of this perception 

of devalued lives, among other factors, far too many individuals 

have been violently destroyed by offenders and discounted by witnesses. 

As a former police officer for many years in the city of New Orleans, I am abundantly aware of the need for well-trained, wellequipped, well-paid law enforcement officers in the battle against 

crime. We are all in agreement that funds are needed for an adequately staffed and properly functioning District Attorney’s office. 

We all recognize the need for a firm, but fair, court system. 

But along with addressing these needs, it is imperative that we 

recognize that a hopeless community will cripple even—efforts of 

even the best-paid cops, the best-prepared prosecutors of criminal 

cases, and the best-principled courts. A hopeless community is an 

uninvolved community. An uninvolved community provides the 

breeding ground for uninhibited criminal—criminal activity. There 

are many across our city who recognize that a great deal of the responsibility for providing a solution to the crime and violence in 

our communities rests upon us, and many have moved far beyond 

simply complaining about the predicament to confronting the problem. 

Both religious and community groups, often at the risk of life 

and limb, have actively gone into the most dangerous communities 

in New Orleans in an attempt to provide hope for the hurting, help 

for the struggling, and alternatives for those engaged in criminal 

life styles. We have attempted to provide remedies for self-inflicted 

social wounds, to generate neighborhood concern, to develop relationships between police and community, and to encourage witness 

involvement in the prosecution of offenders. However, as long as 

citizens are faced with inadequate or no housing, inadequate paying jobs, or no job at all, with few job-training programs, with an 

inadequate education system, and virtually no recreational programs for our children, with inadequate physical and mentalhealth services, and with insufficient drug rehabilitation facilities, 

drug dealers will continue to justify dispensing death on our 

streets, mothers will continue to bury their sons and daughters, 

children will continue to die before they discover what living is all 

about, and New Orleans will continue to cling to the title of ‘‘Murder Capital of our Country.’’

Again, in closing, I know that our city is only one of many in 

America facing similar social ills. But I’m convinced that the good 

will of our neighborhoods across this country, our own determination to prevail, your commitment to this task, and the help of God, 

provides us with a unique opportunity for us to prove that just as 

we are a Nation that can lift mankind from the depths of pain and 

poverty around the world, then we are more than qualified to do 

the same here. Thank you. 

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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Reverend Raphael, I know it was quite 

a challenge for a Baptist minister to keep it within the allotted 5 

minutes. I was hoping I wouldn’t have to give you the touch. 

[Laughter.] 

I appreciate your testimony, particularly the part where you 

mentioned that I was here back in September—August or September of last year. 

Reverend RAPHAEL. Yes, sir. 

Mr. SCOTT. So a lot of people are familiar with your work. Thank 

you. 

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Mr. SCOTT. Professor Scharf. 

TESTIMONY OF PETER SCHARF, RESEARCH PROFESSOR OF 

CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER 

FOR SOCIETY, LAW AND JUSTICE AT TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY 

Mr. SCHARF. I’m so honored to be here. In preparing with Chief 

Counsel Bobby Vassar, and listening to your questions, I’d like to 

think ‘‘What are the concerns of the Committee?’’ This is an incredible opportunity to re-invent criminal justice support in this country. One question is: What’s driving the murder epidemic here and 

elsewhere? Murder rates are up 4 percent in the first half of 2006, 

and this is not the only city that’s experiencing a rise in murder 

risks. 

And the second question is a question of evidence: What’s our 

best shot. 

And as I thought about that as homework for my testimony, I 

read the Challenge of Crime in a Free Society, written in 1968, 

funded by President Johnson. 

And the same issues he dealt with there are part of education 

versus cops versus prosecutors was evident in those discussions 

here and the answer to both. And then this question that I think 

has been repeated through the years is the question—is the question of accountability. And I think there are two issues: One, will 

money get to the end user? And the second question is the issue 

of outcomes. If we invest in a particular strategy, what is the return on investment of any of these strategies? And I want to make 

a case in that the direction, that funding in criminal justice and 

in New Orleans, is a rational investment. Somebody, a wise man, 

once said, ‘‘Start with what we all agree on.’’ What do we all agree 

on? One, that we had an experience here in New Orleans, and we 

had it all through the United States in 1990’s, where you had an 

increase in Federal funding and the ‘‘Cops More’’ program and the 

murder rates went down. People forget, the murder rate for 1994 

the Len Davis year which was at 88/100,000 the total was 424. In 

1999, it was 162, exactly what it is now except that New Orleans 

had 480,000 population. So, under the Pennington Plan, in which 

Linder created a terrific strategic plan, they reduced the murder 

rate 60 percent. In fact, among all the cities, the decreases were 

highest in New Orleans. 

So, right now, we’re embarrassed and all that. In fact, we had 

the steepest decline in the 1990’s. If you look at surveys done, at 

that time the people loved the place; they wanted to take their 

wives and their husbands out to dinner; and there was a completely different perception of safety than there is now. That was 

about 7 years ago. What we’ve done research on is what happened 

in the ’90’s, and the answer is ‘‘We don’t know.’’ We don’t know the 

specifics, but we know one thing: That if you have a coherent strategic plan, if the organization works together, it becomes a crimefighting system, not a bunch of different agencies doing their own 

thing. And Jim Letten rightfully made that point. In fact, this isn’t 

nuclear science. You can reduce down the murder rate. New Orleans did it. 40 of the top 80 cities, in fact, produced those kinds of 

results. 

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The major issue in New Orleans: Okay, let’s be realistic. Things 

right now are horrible. Jim Letten commented that we have 60 

homicides with only 100 days through April 10 in the year. That 

means a person dies here between every 1.7 days and 1.8 days. 

And with 220,000 people, or 240,000 people, that’s absolutely horrific. It’s double Richmond’s rate. Richmond is about 43/100,000. 

For the past 9 months, we might hit 90 per hundred thousand. 

New York at 6.5. So there’s no wayto explain this, there’s no way 

to deny it. There’s been a problem. 

Mr. SCOTT. Can you say those numbers again? 

Mr. SCHARF. The issue, I think, that cuts to the heart of the testimony, is the main question: We face what’s going on here? And 

we have had three theories expressed, and they’re different. And I 

think if you build national policy as the policy of New Orleans, you 

have to sort through these different theories. One is we have the 

worst under-class, if you want to call it that, violent, drug-infested, 

low moral values, low education, in the history of the earth. And 

this is a person-focused theory. The other theory, the second theory 

is that the criminal justice system is broken. And the reason that 

the group that Mr. Raphael discussed, will not want to go in that 

profession, if you want to call it that? One, the system doesn’t 

work. And if that’s the theory, then you have different remedies 

compared to the first theory. The third thing: We’re actually doing 

research on the relationship between migration and the rise of 

crime in New Orleans, and this theory deals with destabilization, 

in fact, from Hurricane Katrina. Consider these points: What happened was the drug dealers went to West Houston and became 

closer to the drug supply. They learned some nasty habits from 

much more sophisticated Houston murderers or example, drive-bys. 

They come back without parents and grandparents. It’s destabilization. And they also find drug competitors in a city where they used 

to have a monopoly in dealing drugs. So there’s some truth in this 

in theory. And these theories dictate how we proceed, I think, affects what we do. 

The other area we did research on, and this was funded by the 

Department of Justice, is the cost of crime. We partnered with the 

National Institute of Justice and Michael Geerkin, who worked on 

this. A murder is worth a million dollars. And what they would define as the value if a young person is shot and sits in a wheelchair 

the rest of his life, it’s $2 million. If you take the 161 murders from 

last year and you say there five to one wounded in action to killed 

in action, the total cost of violence could be half a billion dollars; 

and that’s without the exodus of brains, tourists, and business to 

add to all this. You know, you could be talking as an investment 

loss of close to a billion dollars. What do I recommend you think 

about? Okay, one, there’s a disproportionate underinvestment in 

this violent crime problem in the sense we went from $4.2 billion 

to a $1.2 billion in Federal criminal justice expenditures, and one 

factor is we’re under-resourced to deal with the depth of the problems we face. 

The second issue what do we do with the money? One thing to 

insist on, and people may be uncomfortable with this for the community get this money, you need a coherent business plan to effectively use funding of the criminal justice system. And you have a 

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coherent plan which builds on evidence also has outcomes defined. 

And you can measure the outcomes. And if we don’t have that, 

we’re going to continue to remain where we’re at. 

The third thing to think about and this is very complex—addresses the Katrina issue: Crime is mobile. We tend to think about 

city crimes as, for example, New Orleans crime. Well, Jefferson 

Parish is up. We probably have about 10 times compared to most 

cities, and that is the truth of it. And it’s a complex dynamic that 

we don’t understand, that deals with the migration and the destabilization of drug traffic, and many deaths in a number of cities, 

including New Orleans. Fourteen-year-old murderers come back 

without parents and get caught up by the gun and drug culture. 

The other area is this—I think we have to get better. And this 

was true in the Challenge of Crime in a Free Society book in 

1968—we need to improve markedly. This is, by the way, the root 

of LEAA. May be this is where we’re at. And what LEAA really did 

in that study was they built capacity, criminal justice capacity. So, 

you know, to be honest, to fight the murder problem, you have to 

fight your own organization. We are the problem. It’s us. It’s the 

organization. And we have to improve capacity. This is true, in 

fact, in any of the top 15 murder risk cities in the United States. 

It’s true in Newark. It’s true to Detroit. It’s true in many cities. It’s 

due highly to increased capacity, so the people are able to deal with 

this terrible threat of murder. 

The way through the wall I think basically what the House of 

Representatives can do is this: I mean, work with us to build a 

plan. Work with us to rebuild New Orleans as living place, and certainly, the NO Crime Summit does a great job with ideas as how 

to do this. 

Work to build a metrics to prove we will deliver what we say we 

deliver, and help us develop both community capacity, criminal justice capacity. 

And the last issue is the question of should we build parks, 

schools, or perhaps fund more police officers? I think you ought to 

build both capacities. I think if you don’t fund both community and 

law enforcement agencies, you risk having a bias in one direction. 

Focus on early intervention, as Judge Gray suggested. Focus on police capacity, as Jim Bernazzani very articulately suggested. And 

focus on correctional treatment, so when the offenders come out, 

they don’t come back again. I’m honored to be here. Thank you 

very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much, Professor. Could you just repeat the numbers of the murder rates? 

Was it 6 in New York per 100,000? 

Mr. SCHARF. New York had 539 murders for 8.1 million people, 

and it comes out to just about 6. For the last 9 months, we’re hovering about 90 murders per 100,000. And we take the numbers 

from here as a statistic—I mean, you know, if you kill somebody 

every other day—somebody’s murdered, well, more than every 2 

days, you’re, you know, at 223,000 people you’re close to 100 for 

every 100,000 persons. 

And it’s right now about this rate—it’s a murder every 1.8 days; 

so, you realize—these are the best numbers we have, and a professor from Tulane puts the murder rate at 96 per 100,000. The 

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cautious number is somewhere between 85 and 90 per 100,000 persons, going back 9 months. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Judge Gray, could you say a word about 

what’s going on with the issue of the defense problem? Is that 

being solved, or is that still ongoing? 

Judge GRAY. There’s still a lot of work that needs to be done. You 

know, I assume from the statewide—the Indigent Defender’s Office 

statewide, before the storm, they were having some serious problems. One of the criminal judges here was holding them in contempt, brought them to court around their representation after the 

storm, as is natural. A lot of their people didn’t return. Their funding was cut; and, so, they’re struggling with trying to figure out 

how to fund the system so that it can provide the numbers of persons that they need in order to function in both the Criminal Court 

and the Juvenile Court. They are working through anticipating 

some funding coming out of the legislative session, I believe, this 

year, which will give them some relief. But it’s still a big issue on 

how to adequately fund the indigent defender system in the State. 

Mr. SCOTT. In your court, if a juvenile is being tried as an adult, 

do they come to your court. 

Judge GRAY. Yes. In our court every child, whether they’re being 

tried as an adult or not, if they’re tried—if they’re charged and 

brought to court, under our law, they have to have a lawyer. 

Mr. SCOTT. And can you say a word about whether we ought to 

be increasing or decreasing the number of juveniles being tried as 

adults? 

Judge GRAY. I believe that we should not be increasing. That 

goes back to my statement about insanity. I am confused about 

why we think we should send young people—all the evidence we 

have about their brain—brain development that came out—that 

has come out recently, why we think we ought to send young people to a system that doesn’t work for adults. It would be one thing 

if we were able to get adults in the system, get them out, and have 

them not re-offend. That’s just not our experience. What we know 

about sending kids to the adult system is that, when they are released, they generally re-offend earlier, they re-offend at more severe levels. And, so, sending them to the adult system does not 

help the community because it doesn’t make them safer, and it 

really doesn’t help the children either because they become bigger 

and badder criminals. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Scharf follows:]

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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Reverend Raphael, you mentioned witness testimony that’s been mentioned by a number of people, that 

that is a problem. Can you say a word about what we ought to be 

doing in the City to make sure witnesses testify? If you don’t have 

a witness, you don’t have a case. 

Reverend RAPHAEL. That’s been a problem long before Katrina, 

and we’ve actually done some things going to—going to court with 

witnesses, just a group of men just walk in court and sit there with 

the witnesses. The problems usually referred to just as a response 

to fear of retaliation by the perpetrator or the accused. Well, that 

problem is greater than that. If a policy, a community policy, is 

that it’s wrong to say something to the police, it’s wrong to get involved, then that person not only has fear of the possibility of retaliation from the accused; but now he’s ostracized from the community. He’s looked down upon by—by his own community; and, so, 

you have that veil of silence. And we’ve been doing some things to 

try to elevate—again to perceive value of life, to let—that even if 

the cost is not life, it’s right for me to step forward. 

I hate to say it, but there’s a strange phenomenon that if a White 

police officer is accused of shooting me, I would be able to find as 

many witnesses as I need, or somebody would be able to find them. 

But if the gentleman who lives in the next block from me takes my 

life, my life was nothing. And we have to find a way to change that 

perception in our community, that my life is of no value if it’s 

taken by somebody else right there in that community. 

And I think it’s something that—that—that’s why I believe that 

the Police Department, no matter what we do, no matter what we 

do in the courts, no matter what we do with the DA’s office, if the 

community does not recognize and accept this responsibility, then 

every aspect falls apart, every aspect. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Forbes. 

Mr. FORBES. Mr. Chairman. 

And, Reverend Raphael, I’m going to come back to you. I want 

you to just think about—the question I’m going to ask you is: Are 

you currently a pastor in a church? 

Reverend RAPHAEL. Yes, sir. 

Mr. FORBES. The question I’m going to have for you is—I don’t 

disagree with anything you said. 

But how can we help you do what you do? Just think about that 

a minute. When I come back to you——

Judge Gray—thank you all for being here. But I want to ask you, 

Judge, a question. We have a lot of expertise, and I’m sure you 

have a lot of experience in a lot of areas other than just the judiciary. But today you’re the only shot in the judiciary. You know, 

you’re it for us. You’re there. The question may be repeating what 

we’ve done, and not to repeat. I understand about prevention and 

those kinds of thing. But one of the questions that I’m grappling 

with, as I look to New Orleans, and I look at the fact that we have 

7 percent—this is before Katrina. It’s worse after Katrina by a little, but 7 percent of the people who are arrested for violent crimes 

and crimes ultimately are incarcerated. Twelve percent of the people who are arrested for murders are incarcerated for the murders. 

If we sent that to the bank, you know, that you do that, I know 

you wouldn’t suggest that we release that other 7 percent or 12 

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percent, but where’s the problem in that strength? Is Chief Riley 

arresting the wrong people? Are we letting people off that we 

shouldn’t be letting off? Are we not prosecuting? I think everybody 

agrees that statistic is a bad statistic. You know, it is—it is an 

enormous failure. Where is the breakdown? 

Judge GRAY. Well, I’m sorry, Congressman, I’m not sure that I 

can give you a definitive answer on where the breakdown is because I believe in each individual case one of those things that you 

mentioned that might be a problem would be the problem; i.e., on 

an individual case, it might be that the wrong person was arrested. 

It might be that, in the case where there was someone arrested, 

the evidence wasn’t properly taken care of. 

But I would back off and say, in this country, we have a system 

that’s based on a person gets arrested; they are not guilty until 

they are tried by either a judge or a jury of their peers. And just 

because someone gets arrested does not mean they are guilty. 

That’s not our country. That’s not what we believe in. We believe 

in a person having a right to go to court after being charged, with 

a lawyer, and present their defense. Now, when they bring—

present their case to the jury, if the jury decides that the prosecution didn’t provide enough evidence, and they find that the person 

is not guilty, that is the way we say we want our system to work. 

Not guilty, they go home. If the prosecution evaluates what the police bring to them, and they decide there is not enough here to 

present this case, I believe that’s what we call prosecutorial discretion; they have a right to do that. 

Now, I believe that there are some issues based on the fact that, 

in my experience, the persons who are hired for work at the DA’s 

office, many of them, at least in juvenile court for example, are the 

newest people in the office. They stay in juvenile court 6 months 

at the longest they would stay. And then they would go to adult 

court, and they would be responsible for trying those cases. I believe that the District Attorney’s office, probably because of low 

pay, was not able to attract people with the kinds of skills that 

they needed in order to be able to put their cases together. That’s 

what I think. That’s part of the problem. 

Mr. FORBES. And I don’t think anybody disagrees that we want 

somebody innocent to be pled guilty. That’s not my question. It’s 

just—I think it’s a very big concern we’re arresting 93 percent of 

the wrong people, whatever is happening. I think it’s a big problem 

we’re arresting 88 percent of the wrong people for murders. So we 

have to, at some point, say, ‘‘We’ve got to do a better job of who 

we arrest.’’ Or we have to say, ‘‘We’ve got to do a better job of prosecuting the people that we arrest.’’ One of the two of those things 

aren’t lining up. 

Judge GRAY. But I actually think it’s a combination of the two. 

I really think it is both. I think the system needs reinforcement at 

all those points: Police with the training and the tools that they 

use—people have already talked about that—so they can arrest the 

right people. And then, once that information is provided to the 

prosecutor’s office, that office is staffed with people who have the 

skills and the ability to put those cases together and present them 

to the jurors and the judge. So, I think it is both. I think, quite 

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often, what we do in criminal justice is we look at one piece of the 

system and say, for example, we will get more police. 

Mr. FORBES. Judge, can I ask you this? I’d love to hear it. I’m 

out of time. Could you give us that just in writing. And I know I’d 

love to hear your speech, but he’s going to cut me off here. That’s 

okay. 

Judge GRAY. Okay. 

Mr. FORBES. I want Reverend Raphael to try to help us with how 

we can help you because I know your church is doing a lot of good 

work? How do we help you instill that respect for life? 

Reverend RAPHAEL. I know this is going to sound strange; but I 

don’t think money is my big issue. 

Mr. FORBES. I’m not asking you just money. What else? 

Reverend RAPHAEL. Other than money, I don’t know what you 

can do. [Laughter.] 

But the bulk of all the resources, and what we have what’s called 

‘‘The Way Out Program.’’ There’s a segment, I have programs that 

are tutorial for kids and programs for young girls, programs for 

young boys. But when they leave that program, when they go 

home, they have to go back to that same neighborhood and find 

themselves heavily influenced by the heroes, or those who are 

feared, in that neighborhood. 

If that segment of the community is not addressed, no matter 

how hard we work with these kids all day long, when they go back, 

they’re going to either, desire to emulate that person or they’re 

going to feel pressured to act like that person does, to feel comfortable in that community. If you act like it long enough, you’re 

going to become it. 

So, what we do is what I call compassionate confrontation: We 

actually go out to these areas and approach individuals who are 

out there selling—they’re standing on the corner, they’re carrying—

and offer them a way out. Again, that could be dangerous, but we 

never had a problem with it, and the response is that you’ll be surprised that many of those individuals are almost waiting for somebody to say something to them or come and get them, and we’re 

right in the midst of them. When I leave here, I have to go out on 

the street and this is 30 days of happenings in about a 40-squareblock area. There has not been an incident of violence since we 

started that particular spot a couple of weeks ago. 

And if I could have people on staff, to be able to go to that individual who’s on the street. If he lets me talk to him, and I offer 

him another alternative, I want to be able to bring him in, right 

from there, bring him in to an office, let somebody evaluate him: 

and ask what is the hang up? Is it education? Is it drug treatment? 

Is it job training? Or is it just that you need a job? Sometimes our 

biggest problem in our community is information. We have jobs 

available in New Orleans right now; but there’s somebody standing 

on the corner in New Orleans right now who’s convinced that there 

are no jobs. 

Mr. FORBES. Right. 

Reverend RAPHAEL. And, so, my biggest need would be to be able 

to staff, of course, obviously, we need recreation centers for the kids 

out there who are on the streets. I have a little piece of property. 

I put some sand in it, right by the church. We’re going to make it 

223

a peace area for seniors where they can go and sit. Well, we got 

kind of bogged down, and it’s just sand. I watch the kids in the 

neighborhood there, and they’re just building sandcastles. That’s 

all they have, sand. So, we need those kind of facilities to be able 

to provide some kind of structured training. 

Mr. FORBES. Well, that might not be anything we can help with; 

but thank you for what you are doing. 

Reverend RAPHAEL. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. I do appreciate all that you’ve done. 

There were some of the panelists we’ve had today, you can tell 

there’s a bit of friction between some of them. And this, obviously, 

is a panel of people that really want to help and try to make a difference. And, Judge, I know it’s difficult dealing with juveniles, you 

get the new fresh prosecutors. And the truth is, what they see is 

so heart-breaking, they don’t want to stay there very long. So, my 

hats off to you for continuing in your diligence. 

But, Reverend Raphael, you mentioned—I thought it was pretty 

profound—that this Hurricane Katrina exposed two things about 

America: Basically, in effect, what’s good about America and also 

the problems. But I’ve got to tell you; in driving around East Texas, 

which is my district, we had tens of thousands of evacuees from 

New Orleans in my district. And sometimes, virtually almost 24 

hours a day, I was going around helping, and there were times I 

just got choked up because I saw the churches where the children 

of all colors, all ages, were playing together. I saw civic centers 

where the community just poured out contributions, and it just 

choked me up that this is what’s good with America. 

I had people say, ‘‘If I had known that it was this easy to get 

a job in East Texas, I would have left New Orleans a long time 

ago.’’ And it seemed to bring about this idea that there is a sense 

of hopelessness among those that may just want, well, there’s just 

no use. I can’t find a job. They don’t have that tunnel vision. And 

I’m no psychiatrist, but that seems to be a problem of people who 

get depressed. I don’t know if there’s any consolation—when you 

talked about people feeling that they’re not worth anything, apparently, the Congress appropriated over $150,000 per person of the 

450-or-so-thousand that were living in New Orleans. Where did all 

of that money go? I don’t know. But as you know, a family of six, 

they were worth over a million bucks according to the Congress. 

And I don’t know where that money has all gone because it sure 

doesn’t appear to have gone to the individuals. I’m sure they would 

have taken 150 grand and walked on. 

I’m an optimist by nature. I walked around along the River walk 

and the park that’s been redone. I’ve walked several miles yesterday evening and last night after dark. There’s been so much done. 

There’s so much graciousness in this town. It has a personality all 

its own. It is such an asset. But there is a great need here, I think. 

I just can hear you say that since you are such a man of passion 

and compassion. To you, what is the way, the truth, and the light? 

What motivates you? 

Reverend RAPHAEL. Well, I was brought up in a time when people sacrificed for other people. My father was the first Black police 

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officer in New Orleans. My grandfather was a pastor. And, if anything, they gave me the opportunity to serve. 

Mr. GOHMERT. That’s a tough combination to grow up under. 

[Laughter.] 

Reverend RAPHAEL. And my mother died when I was—other people raised me. But your city drives me because, after all I stayed 

there during the storm. I had some people who didn’t want to 

leave; so, I stayed at the church and let them stay there. I got 

about 70 people out after the storm. During the time between Lake 

Charles and Texas, going back and forth, I would hear the news 

reports in Houston and other areas about fights between children 

from New Orleans students and there. 

And I just took it on myself to go to Houston. And I started going 

to every high school I could. I would just go and tell them I’m from 

New Orleans. I thought those children were abandoned, but they 

didn’t hear it. We were traumatized as adults. I know they had to 

be. 

Some of the principals let me come right in and talk. Others 

said, ‘‘Well, you have to go to the independent school district and 

talk to them.’’ But I looked at the structures in the school. Some 

I drove up to. I thought they were closed because there was nobody 

outside, which you don’t find that in New Orleans; nobody—and I 

go there and I see mega structures that looked like college campuses. And I’m standing out in the hallway, and I’m talking to a 

principal. I’m talking to the principal, and the bell rings. There’s 

3,500 students there, and I’m thinking, ‘‘Shouldn’t we run for our 

lives?’’ But everything is so organized. I realized how far we were 

in our city and how unfair we were to our children to just settle 

for that, and not to push to take advantage of this opportunity, to 

push them to the best we can have, and not just a Band-Aid on 

the behavior. 

Mr. GOHMERT. If I could just follow up with one thing, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Scharf, you had mentioned it, and I guess all of you have, 

really, there needs to be a combination of things to address the 

problem, that you do have to communicate and improve capacity, 

as well as have the education and the opportunities there. But—

and it does seem that there are numbers that support the fact, 

when more prisons are available—I know in Texas our crime rate 

through the ’90’s dropped when we had greater capacity. And one 

of the things Dr. Osofsky pointed to with the massive drug problem, it just sure seems, when we lock people up, we have got to 

do a better job of addressing the drug and alcohol addiction. Isn’t 

that——

Mr. SCHARF. I totally concur. I think that rehabilitation comes 

first, it’s the issue, I think the hardest thing to do—and Mr. Raphael is doing such a great job—at this is: How do you engage the 

highest risk individuals having the quality of engaging the highestrisk students, the highest-risk offenders and potential offenders. 

And how do you get that hands-on value-based program touching 

them? And that’s where the not-for-profit, faith-based organizations, I think, have an enormous role. And an issue of witnessing, 

I think, is critical. I think the New Orleans policing entities are living down the ghost of Len Davis, a man who killed somebody 14 

225

years ago, in a certain way, except there’s really this trust issue, 

and how do you overcome those historical issues? 

In terms of correctional rehabilitation—there is a reduction use 

of moral development in corrections. We need to look at the newest 

model, substance abuse, real active intervention, anger management, ethics development, the things that really can make a difference because, you know, with the sentencing laws that are in 

Texas, Louisiana, or any place else, if you re-incarcerate a person, 

I mean, it’s a huge economic burden losing a special ed teacher for 

20 years, you know? And I think that that is such an important 

area of innovation. I think if you look at models—we went to New 

York and I brought Harry Lee, the Sheriff of Jefferson Parish, and 

the Black Ministry to review the New York model. And it was really interesting—we went to New York and said, ‘‘What happened 

here?’’ And it was a Bratton miracle, or police miracle, or correctional miracle, and/or community miracle. The evidence is it’s actually a correctional miracle. They developed a triage system, and 

they developed an approach where—anyone who’s not imminently 

dangerous, they wanted them out in 45 days, with their family, 

earning a living, and so forth. And, so it’s important that we have 

to look all through the different components of this network, including the kind of work that Mr. Raphael does. And really, to get 

solutions, one component won’t do it. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. And thank all of you. And by the way, 

Reverend, if I were a witness in a case and you came and sat with 

me, I’d feel safer. [Laughter.] 

Reverend RAPHAEL. God bless you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. I’ve got about four additional questions. 

Let me just ask one and see how we do. 

Judge, you mentioned 98 percent of the people confined or in 

your court are African American? 

Judge GRAY. I think I said arrested. But arrested, come to court, 

confined, placed on supervision; carries all the way through. 

Mr. SCOTT. And JJDP that you mentioned—JDP Act, requires a 

study of disproportionate minority confinement. 

Judge GRAY. Yes, sir. You’re correct. And we haven’t done very 

well on that in this State. 

Mr. SCOTT. And have you done a study of it to ascertain——

Judge GRAY. Locally or statewide? 

Mr. SCOTT. Either one. 

Judge GRAY. We have not, to my knowledge, done either one. We 

are working on the juvenile court in New Orleans is working with 

Casey; and, as a matter of fact, as part of the Casey work, we have 

identified that as an issue that we really do need to work on. And 

I think, what happened, we were able to get some statistics about 

the number of children who were arrested or referred. We haven’t 

been able to get the numbers on the White kids. And we’ve got—

at the end of the last year, we got some numbers that really, really 

showed that, actually, White kids were being arrested, but they 

were not making it into the system. And, after seeing those numbers, people thought that we really need to do something, look at 

this issue more closely. And I believe that, as a part of our Casey 

work, we’re going to be looking at the minority. 

Mr. SCOTT. Disproportionate minority——

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Judge GRAY [continuing]. Contact. 

Mr. SCOTT [continuing]. Contact. 

Judge GRAY. Thank you very much. Yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. And do you have sufficient alternatives to incarceration? 

Judge GRAY. Do we have sufficient alternatives? That would be 

a no. No, sir. That is, again, something that we are working on 

with Casey. We, just like everywhere else, if you had a bed, you 

filled it. And quite often we were filling our beds with children who 

really didn’t need to be incarcerated, but we didn’t have anything 

else. We didn’t have substance abuse. We didn’t have mental 

health treatment. And so what the judges have done after the 

storm is they really are going to do things differently. And part of 

what we’re going to work with Casey is around developing—developing some of those alternatives; releasing kids on devices, evening 

reporting centers, those kinds of things so that we can have our 

children at home and not in the detention facility. And the article 

that I mentioned earlier from the Sunday paper does a good job of 

talking about that, and I actually have four copies here. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. The Mayor mentioned summer jobs is an 

important issue. Will summer jobs make a difference in juvenile 

crime? 

Judge GRAY. I believe so. My grandmother always taught me 

that an idle mind is the devil’s workshop. And I believe that, just 

like talking about making people feel valued, if one has a job to do 

for which they can get compensation, that makes a difference. And 

for our young people, they want to have—they want to have money. 

And if they don’t figure out a way to get it legally, they figure out 

a way to get it illegally. 

And that’s what we want to turn around. So the opportunity to 

work, the opportunity to have a role in the economic development 

for our city, I think, is important for our young people. 

Mr. SCOTT. Dr. Osofsky, there’s psychological evidence to suggest 

that summer jobs are going to reduce crime? 

Dr. OSOFSKY. Certainly—I would say that’s correct, especially 

now that many of the schools in New Orleans do not have facilities 

that have summer programs. And, I think that’s an important 

issue. There’s another issue with the kids who have been—adolescents/children who’ve been placed. And coming back, some of them, 

not only have the wonderful experience we talked about, for example, in Eastern Texas; but they’ve been in multiple schools. There 

are some of them in no schools; some of them in trailer parks. They 

are behind even where they were. And with remediation programs, 

it’s also important that they not feel further depreciated. But there 

is evidence that summer jobs or programs, to facilitate a touch of 

leadership, that are being taught, do have an impact. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Questions? 

Mr. FORBES. I just wanted to ask Professor Scharf. You mentioned in New York, an experience in New York, it wasn’t necessarily a policing thing that took place. Let me just say I disagree 

with you on that because I’ve been there and I’ve seen it, as I know 

you’ve been there and seen it. But, if you take some of the biggest 

ministries in New York, Teen Challenge is the one I’m thinking 

about, they work. 

227

Since I know you’re familiar with this situation, been at this 

church, seen what they’ve done, reaching young people. They 

couldn’t do that until they sent the police in from basically Time 

Square all the way down to Central Park. Got the prostitutes off 

the streets, the drug dealers off the streets. And now they’re able 

to go out into the streets and get those teenagers and bring them. 

Same things. Not just with the ritzy area. Brooklyn Tabernacle 

Church, same thing. They have 3,000 people every Tuesday night 

come in there from all walks of life. Walk there. Before, they 

couldn’t. 

And so it takes that combination of things, that you were talking 

about. You’ve got to go in with a strong amount of force—and even 

if you walk. If you walk at midnight, you know, down the streets 

of New York and the police are there, but they’re trained not to be 

intrusive. They’re just there. But they do create that feeling of stability and safety that gives you a lot of other things. So it’s the 

combination approach that I——

Mr. SCHARF. Absolutely. And I think the major proactive issue is 

one of the central leadership, and health, education. New York’s 

miracle was one irony that people may not know. They went from 

2274 homicides in 1991 to 539, and 28,000 jail cells to 13,000 jail 

cells. So, part of the miracle, including police participation a huge 

part, is that they reduced incarceration and murders, which is, you 

know, counter initiative, it’s a counter to ‘‘accepted’’ fact, but a very 

effective strategy. 

Mr. FORBES. Doctor, one of the things that we need to remember, 

as we heard here today, is you’ve got to stop this revolving 

door——

Mr. SCHARF. Absolutely. 

Mr. FORBES [continuing]. That we’re putting these criminals back 

out on the streets because you’re never going to get those people 

to testify if they think that guy’s going to be back out on the street 

tomorrow. And you’re never going to give them hope that they can 

clean up the neighborhoods because they’re going to be coming 

right back. They’re doing it day after day. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Scharf, Professor, do you know whether or not 

the calculation of the fewer jail cells, the savings in the fewer jail 

cells, is more or less than the amount of money invested to produce 

that result? 

Mr. SCHARF. Oh, my Lord. How we can afford prison. That 

strikes me as an easy calculation. I mean, Marty Horn, he shared 

his data with us. But to reduced costs if you took a $30,000 number, it’s an astronomic figure. They did it through triage, and they 

did it through treatment. They did it through planning. By the way 

the issue you asked before about over-representation of African 

American persons in the criminal justice system, Robert 

Crutchfield in Washington State has done the classic research, and 

they found that 45 percent of Washington State defendants were 

African American. And basically it’s a 9 percent African-American 

population. 

And they look at every factor, and that’s a classic study, you 

know, probably the best research on that issue. 

Mr. SCOTT. Let’s get the—that data and the New York study because I suspect that they spent less than they say they did. 

228

Dr. OSOFSKY. Oh, absolutely. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Gohmert, do you have anything? 

Mr. GOHMERT. Mr. Chairman, you had indicated we include 

Bobby Jindal’s statement. Heck, I told him he might as well run 

for governor again. A lot of people would vote against her in my 

district, you know, so. [Laughter.] 

Maybe I just put you in the middle. But, anyway, thank you-all 

so much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. And I want to thank you, Mr. Forbes. We 

thank our witnesses. If there’s no objection, the hearing record will 

remain open for 1 week for submission of additional materials. And 

with, that the Subcommittee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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