Date: March 19, 2015

Case: Federal Advisory Committee Meeting

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U. S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING

 THE APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 U.S. Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Room No. 8E-089

 Thursday, March 19, 2015

 9:00 a.m.
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1 Appearances for Department of Energy meeting.

2

3 John Cymbalsky - DOE

4 Ashley Armstrong - DOE

5 Dan Cohen - DOE - GC

6 Joe Hagerman - DOE

7 Janet Freimuth - DOE

8 Steve Fine - DOE

9 Wade Boswell - DOE

10 P:amela Pontillo - DOE

11

12 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating &

13 Refrigeration Institute

14 Donald M. Brundage, Southern Company

15 John F. Caskey, National Electrical Manufacturers

16 Association

17 Andrew deLaski, Appliance Standards Awareness Project

18 Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation Council

19 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

20 David G. Hungerford, California Energ Commission

21 Diane M. Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Company

22 Michael J. McCabe, 
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1 Appearances for Department of Energy meeting.

2 Kevin Washington, Illinois Tool Works Inc.

3 Dave Winningham, Allied Air Enterprises

4 Jennifer Cleary, Association of Home Appliance

5 Manufacturers

6 Kelley Kline, GE

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (9:25 a.m.)

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so this is John Cymbalsky

4 from DOE. I am the designated federal official for

5 the ASRAC Federal Advisory Committee for Appliance

6 Standards. I want to welcome everyone to today's

7 meeting. You could see the agenda up on the screen. 

8 We just had our ethic's discussion and so we are our

9 welcome point and I think the first thing we should

10 do is actually go quickly around the table. We do

11 have a few new members, if you could just you know,

12 state your name, your affiliation and then the

13 relevant experience that other's around the table

14 would care to know about that would be great so,

15 again I am John Cymbalsky I am the program manager

16 for appliance standards.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm Ashley Armstrong, I'm

18 the ASRAC rep from DOE. I worked on the appliance

19 standards and I oversee the test procedure

20 development and the verification and testing program

21 that we run out of the buildings.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm Joe Hagerman with DOE. 
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1 I run the miscellaneous refrigeration rule.

2 MR. ECKMAN: I'm Tom Eckman with the

3 Northwest Power Conservation Council. I guess I've

4 been involved in appliances since1987 when EPAC was

5 adopted.

6 MS. JAKOBS: My name is Diane Jakobs. I

7 work for Rheem and I am an engineer and I've been in

8 advanced R&D for 10 years I was engineering manager

9 for furnaces for 10 years and right now I'm helping

10 with all the rulemakings that apply to Rheem which is

11 more than 10 and less than 50 so yeah I've been here

12 many times and I'm excited to be here.

13 MS. CLEARY: Hi I'm Jennifer Cleary with

14 the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers and I

15 work regulatory affairs including the efficiency.

16 MS. KLINE: Kelley Kline, Regulatory

17 Counsel and Leader for GE Appliances and Lighting

18 where I do a lot of work around energy efficiency

19 standards.

20 MS. MILLER: My name is Deborah Miller and

21 I'm a new member of ASRAC but not new to this

22 process. From 1993 through 1999 I worked with Mike
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1 McCabe to help lead the standard's office and I let

2 the process improvement when the Congress tried to

3 shut the program down. Nice to be back by the way.

4 MR. HUNGERFORD: I'm David Hungerford I'm

5 with the California Energy Commission. I'm a former

6 special adviser to Mr. Rosenfeld at the Commission

7 and as such I've worked on appliance rulemakings and

8 I'm senior scientist in the energy efficiency

9 research and development division.

10 MR. DELASKI: I'm Andrew DeLaski, I'm the

11 Executive Director of the Appliance Standards

12 Awareness Project. I've been working on standards

13 policy since the late 90's where I first met Deborah

14 here in this building. I'm working on appliance

15 standards when she was with the agency. ASAP is a

16 coalition project that consists of organizations that

17 are active in DOE standards development including

18 representatives from environmental groups, efficiency

19 advocacy organizations, consumer groups, California

20 utilities and others who work together to advance new

21 appliance standards.

22 So I am involved with the ASRAC and have
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1 launched to serve with John Mandyck as one of the

2 co-chairs.

3 MR. CASKEY: I'm John Caskey with the

4 National Electrical Manufacturers Association, NEMA

5 and a lot of my experience has been with electric

6 utilities, also representing the most recently for

7 the last ten years the honor of representing the

8 electric manufacturers and I guess the way I got

9 involved with this was early on getting involved with

10 distribution transformer efficiency rulemaking as a

11 negotiated rulemaking process and that was one of the

12 early ones, if not the first one.

13 And that was a really good experience for

14 me and I thought it was a very good process so I've

15 been sort of a supporter of that for years and I

16 think that that's how I got on the ASRAC.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: And then Charlie if you

18 want to introduce yourself and a little bit about

19 your history and tie in to the program please.

20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon I work for True

21 Manufacturing, a commercial refrigerator

22 manufacturing company. We manufacture commercial
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1 refrigeration of several different categories

2 residential and commercial some level. We

3 manufacture some ice machines and a few other

4 refrigeration packages. I have been with the

5 refrigeration industry for over 25 years. I have

6 been working with DOE and Energy Star and whatnot

7 since 2001. And basically I believe that there's a

8 lot of things going on in Washington, D.C. that needs

9 support.

10 Unfortunately for me the owner of our

11 company believes the same thing so here we come. 

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Great so again this room

13 is a little different than the AD room that we are

14 probably more used to but President Obama is actually

15 here today so we got booted off the 8th floor and

16 safely on this floor where apparently he won't come

17 anywhere near, so we are good here.

18 But yeah for the webinar people you will

19 have to get close to the microphone because we don't

20 have mic drops, I don't see any anyway that will pick

21 up the sound better. Just as a quick process note,

22 the committee is going to go about its business,
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1 there is going to be opportunity for public comment

2 at the end. It's not necessarily an interactive back

3 and forth that we do have that normal public meeting

4 so I just wanted to point that out for the people on

5 the webinar and in the gallery here today.

6 So now I will turn it over to Andrew who

7 is the co-chair of ASRAC for a few opening words and

8 then we will get right to the agenda. 

9 MR. DELASKI: Thanks John and it's nice to

10 be here in person. I think we have done a number of

11 these meetings on the phone over the past couple of

12 years to address particular topics that were being

13 raised. We did an initial meeting in person up on

14 the 8th floor when the Committee was launched and we

15 had a good discussion then and a lot of issues and

16 topics came up that we really haven't addressed since

17 then so I'm hoping that as we get to the second part

18 of our agenda today or the later part of our agenda

19 we can come back to some of the cross cutting topics

20 that we have come up.

21 Some of the phone calls that have come up

22 in our initial meeting for the parent committee to
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1 consider, so I encourage that we do a face-to-face

2 and I'm glad to see a face-to-face this time. I'm

3 sorry that my co-chair John Mandyck can't be here. I

4 know it's tough to schedule with John given his

5 international travel, the next time we have one of

6 these hopefully he can do it but at the time he was

7 unable to make, but it's a tough committee to

8 schedule which you could imagine because we're all

9 here in person let alone on the phone, let alone in

10 person.

11 I want to take a moment to thank the

12 people who have served on the Committee and have now

13 rotated off, Steve Cousins from Coca-Cola, and Tim

14 Cassidy from Best Buy, Tom Kauffman from National

15 Grid and Ken Peterson, independent consultant for

16 their work on some of the working groups and their

17 work on the Committee.

18 The ASRAC has rotating terms and they have

19 rotated off. Some people have re-upped for second

20 terms, I don't know who they are but thank you for

21 those of you who have re-upped for another term and

22 we have some new members and I want to thank them for
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1 coming on board, Diane, Karim, Deborah Miller thank

2 you for coming on board the Committee and Charlie Hon

3 from True so three new members on the Committee, so

4 welcome to the group.

5 That's what I want to say as some

6 overview. I think we have had some very successful

7 working groups we are going to have, I believe we are

8 now going to turn to some new potential working

9 groups unless John you or Ashley have any additional

10 welcome remarks that you want to make.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Now I think we can get

12 down to business and I guess the first item on the

13 agenda is the miscellaneous refrigeration working

14 group and just to set it up for Joe Hagerman who you

15 know, if in fact this gets voted out of ASRAC to form

16 a working group, Joe would be the choice of the

17 federal employee on the working group. This is

18 something we have put out a few notices on, we have

19 the coverage determination that tentatively proposed

20 to cover miscellaneous refrigeration products which

21 consist of a few different items.

22 We believe that based on the unique test
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1 of that this would be actually a very good product to

2 negotiate so with that I'll just turn it over to Joe

3 for a little intro on it and then have some

4 discussion amongst the members.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: So I'm Joe Hagerman, I

6 don't mean to blast everybody, DOE. I picked up with

7 rule I guess about two months ago. We had one really

8 good public meeting which I think a few folks here

9 attended, I know Charlie attended. I designated him

10 the official ice man at the meeting because of his

11 knowledge of ice, clear ice, white ice, et cetera, et

12 cetera, et cetera.

13 Look for him to maybe make some new

14 statements or comments about what we are proposing

15 here so let me just get the ask out of the way and

16 then I will go over what the miscellaneous

17 refrigeration is in detail and tell you some of the

18 issues that have come up as we have started talking

19 about regulating this.

20 So the ask is really to form a working

21 group to help the Department develop a standard for

22 miscellaneous refrigeration and in addition to that
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1 resolve some of the outstanding test procedure issues

2 that are sort of looming. Those are possibly a lot

3 easier to resolve and I saw that because some of the

4 test procedures just require some sort of qualitative

5 in nature value so we just need to as a group decide

6 on and stick with some of those issues are more

7 straightforward than the standard itself.

8 So the ask is to form a working group to

9 try to develop a term sheet. Now let me explain to

10 you what miscellaneous refrigeration is. I like to

11 refer to it as small miscellaneous refrigeration and

12 I think that is perhaps a better name for it. It has

13 a much better acronym because the acronym would be

14 SMRF's so maybe that's something that the working

15 group could consider but these things consist of

16 small refrigerator freezers, small freezers, small

17 hybrid refrigerators, cooled cabinets like wine

18 chillers, non-compressor refrigerators and then ice

19 makers as well.

20 And I say it's miscellaneous it's sort of

21 the products kind of fill the whole gamut of

22 including all the similar features or similar effects
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1 but I think of it in a logical way. I'm a civil

2 engineer so I'm not a mechanical engineer and a rule

3 of logical ways, all these products have a heat pump

4 and that heat pump performs the work right. The work

5 is to cool a medium. That medium is either air,

6 water if you are making ice and then the product of

7 that work is stored in some type of cabinet, some

8 type of insulated cabinet right.

9 And so that sounds pretty -- all the

10 products kind of fill that logical map except there

11 is a lot of nuances in this industry right. The

12 nuances are you know the cabinet that you are storing

13 things it's safe for food or is it not safe for food. 

14 When you make ice is it the clear ice or white ice,

15 is it the cubes, et cetera. And then the heat pump,

16 is the heat pump a solid state heat pump like thermal

17 electrics, or is it a compressor based heat pump

18 right.

19 So because of all of those kinds of

20 nuances that's why I think that a working group is

21 kind of a best form to resolve these things as a

22 group of professionals and S&E's in the sector and
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1 kind of work through all of these issues to develop a

2 term sheet.

3 We also received a comment from I think

4 AHAM early on in the process asking us to potentially

5 consider this as a working group and so we did this

6 on the agenda today and I think that the working

7 group is a good form also that can get additional

8 data. We are kind of data strapped we only have a

9 small subset of data so we need more data. I think

10 it's much easier to get that data from industry than

11 having us kind of do more testing, that's kind of

12 timely but I will open it to the floor to consider

13 and I would like to hear your comments just in

14 general if you think it's a good idea or a bad idea.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so I guess when ASRAC

16 considers this there is also, this is more a question

17 for Joe since he didn't mention it. Is there a time

18 period for finishing if we do vote yes is there a

19 time period to finish the work that you had in mind?

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah I can speak to that. 

21 So the last kind of consensus on the issue of

22 rulemaking I did was the manufacturer housing one and
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1 it was a lot more detailed in terms of all of the

2 technical issues and specifics and you know

3 regulating the whole building, you know, some

4 products. I think that as a group we can set aside,

5 you know three or four months and say that you know

6 that if we met over one and a half, two days per

7 month I think we could come to terms with this and

8 then as needed have bi-weekly check-ins.

9 ASRAC granted me and John -- John and I

10 worked on the last manufacturer housing group

11 together, if you granted me you know a three month

12 window to do that and then we might have to come back

13 and ask for an extension I think that's probably

14 pretty reasonable. So John can comment on the last

15 one that we worked on.

16 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. I think

17 the last one, I think some of the participants felt

18 that it was pretty frantic because we were trying to

19 do a lot in a short period of time but I think it was

20 good to sort of keep their feet to the fire or

21 whatever to make progress, otherwise you know if we

22 gave them a year they would have drug it out to a
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1 year so I think having a fairly short period of time

2 to try and get good results, I think is a beneficial

3 way to proceed.

4 Since this is an area that I am not

5 familiar with relative to their refrigeration, one of

6 my fundamental questions is how similar are the

7 products and in terms of a term sheet is there like

8 one term sheet that covers all of the products

9 because they use similar technologies or is there you

10 know, are there really like five or six or ten

11 different segments within that sector and you have to

12 develop a different, sort of term sheet for all of

13 those?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from

15 DOE. My personal opinion is there are a lot of

16 different products in different segments as you have

17 called them that are covered under DOE's proposed

18 definition of miscellaneous refrigeration products. 

19 I think that's one of the reasons that this rule is

20 pretty complex for us and one of the reasons that DOE

21 feels it is a good idea to negotiate. 

22 I don't think there has to be just one
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1 term sheet. I don't think there has to be multiple

2 term sheets it could all be covered in one. Honestly

3 it is going to depend on how the progress of the

4 negotiations go and what type of discussions they end

5 up having with those SME's and where the data takes

6 are so I think it just depends.

7 MR. CASKEY: So are they different enough

8 that you would take like the one sort of sector or

9 component and whatever and then work on that to see

10 how that process went and then did the other ones

11 later or do they all have to be done in a series or

12 parallel?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's

14 something that the working group could consider. 

15 Right now they are in one rule for DOE so I think

16 DOE's schedule and its analysis right now is in one

17 rule, we have one spreadsheet, a lot of different

18 inputs that are specific to the different categories

19 but ultimately they are all some type of

20 refrigeration equipment and depending on the unique

21 characteristics of the different models they are

22 going to fall into different bucks so they are
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1 somewhat inter-related and the discussion will depend

2 on that.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: And this is John from DOE,

4 I think Tom could probably pick this up with what we

5 did on pumps right so pumps was you know, passed to

6 the working group to work on and they split out a

7 piece of the pumps in the working group to consider

8 later. So I think that and what we did in

9 transformers, we had three types, now I would

10 consider them more closely related than some of these

11 but we got to yes on two but not one.

12 So you know I think there is some good

13 past history to grant the package to the working

14 group and let the working group decide sort of the

15 inerts of how to proceed with multiple products

16 within miscellaneous refrigeration.

17 MR. DELASKI: So this is Andrew, I'll

18 touch that in a second but I want to second your

19 notion that there is some strong parallels to the

20 transformer process. I think that both John and I

21 participated in and Tom participated in it as well

22 and if there is anybody else here that was a part of
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1 that process. But in that case you know as John said

2 the group reached consensus you know there were three

3 types of transformers in the negotiation and the

4 manufacturers were participating and in some cases no

5 one made all three types and some made just one type

6 of transformer.

7 So there was some specific top

8 conversations around specific types of transformers

9 that had to be tackled and ultimately we reached

10 consensus on one of those three buckets of

11 transformers, three types of transformers which are

12 although they do a similar function stepping down

13 voltage could be quite different technically on the

14 different types of transformers, so I think there's a

15 pretty strong parallel there.

16 And I would just remind you that what's

17 negotiated by the working group is the basis of a

18 recommendation for a proposed rule, right and the

19 department government that has to publish that

20 proposed rule would still have to appear to the

21 public rulemaking processes that are required by law. 

22 So I just remind folks of that, this is not the end
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1 of the process, it is we hope it becomes the basis

2 for a final rule but there are additional steps in

3 the process that have to be followed past the term

4 sheet.

5 So I saw a couple of other people to be

6 recognized, Kelly?

7 MS. KLINE: Yeah I just had a quick

8 question too. I was trying to recall if we had any

9 other examples where we had test procedure questions

10 as well but the question was provoked really by John

11 your thought about doing things in series or in

12 parallel and I was wondering about the significance

13 of the test procedure issues and if that was

14 something that would have to be done, maybe first by

15 the group and then turn to the you know the rest of

16 the discussion?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: The pumps negotiations

18 involved test procedures and standards.

19 MS. KLINE: Okay.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: We had to get a test

21 metric first before we could even start.

22 MS. KLINE: So you would kind of do each
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1 one and then --

2 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary did you

3 wait until the test procedure so once you agreed

4 within the working group on the test procedure and

5 then it went to proposed rule did you wait for that

6 rule to be final before you worked on it?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: No it was negotiated right

8 in sequence so if we are negotiating a single

9 rulemaking, a single negotiation.

10 MS. CLEARY: So you assume then that what

11 you agreed to in the test procedure would be

12 finalized?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 

15 I can say now as of last week it was. So we

16 negotiate some of the big details, the more

17 controversial details so was it all every little line

18 of the test procedure? There was some work that DOE

19 had to do once they got the main issues squared away

20 to actually turn it into a full DOE test procedure

21 but we did you know, our proposal that came out last

22 week does adhere to everything we have agreed to and
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1 as to date.

2 (OFF THE RECORD)

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so back to business

4 I guess John you had --

5 MR. CASKEY: Okay John Caskey with NEMA,

6 thank you for all of that information that's very

7 helpful. One of the things that I would recommend

8 that if we do set up a working group it is for that

9 first meeting to try to identify sort of the amount

10 of consumption in each of those areas because going

11 into it the members would know well these are the two

12 big hitters and these are the ones that are really

13 sort of lost in the noise but they might be able to

14 focus where they are working.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we have that

16 information is out on DOE's draft analysis so that is

17 not to say that we got it right but people should you

18 know, we did our best with our estimates so that we

19 do have a good indication of what that is, at least

20 to help with the working group discussions.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Deborah?

22 MS. MILLER: Yes hi it's Deborah Miller. 
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1 I guess I have a question and you might have actually

2 as I was talking you might have said -- but first of

3 all I want to make clear that I am represent NASEO

4 here. I think that's important for people to know

5 but my question is these are a lot of I would call

6 miscellaneous products I know they use a lot of

7 energy. What sort of back in the envelope

8 calculations have you done on their energy use and

9 the potential for savings, I just need that

10 background.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: All right so I have this in

12 terawatts per year so the hybrid refrigerator freezer

13 and freezers use about .4 terawatt hours per year. 

14 Cooled cabinets consume about 4 a little bit over 4

15 terawatt hours per year and non-compressor

16 refrigerators use about you know 1.8 - 1.9 terawatt

17 hours per year and ice makers 2. And I could only

18 just speculate on savings potentials that are you

19 know the time period -- hold on. 

20 So this is Joe Hagerman I think it's about

21 a quad, estimated a quad.

22 MR. DELASKI: That's what I was going to
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1 say. So yeah we looked at it and it is a good sized

2 rulemaking in terms of other curve and scope

3 rulemakings, it's not the biggest thing out there but

4 there are a number of rulemaking under development

5 that have kind of been this quad ballpark so it's

6 certainly I'd call it sort of a medium sized

7 opportunity based on Department's preliminary

8 technical support document.

9 MS. MILLER: Okay.

10 MR. DELASKI: One thing I could comment on

11 it about is that you think about these products,

12 things like one of the products is wine coolers,

13 maybe not I think 20 years ago but it's a product

14 that has seen significant growth in terms of the

15 number of unit that are being installed in homes. I

16 bought a new home this summer and guess what it came

17 with a wine cooler. 

18 I don't really need a wine cooler but I

19 have one now, it's nice, it's nice to have.

20 MR. HUNGERFORD: Did you unplug it?

21 MS. MILLER: He started using it, he put

22 beer in here.
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1 MR. DELASKI: It's a beverage cooler, so

2 these devices are becoming more common and California

3 I think was the first to actually develop standards

4 for wine coolers so we have state standards in some

5 parts of the country for some of these products and

6 it is an increasing product category and one that I

7 think deserves attention. 

8 So I'm glad the Department is approaching

9 it with the rulemaking and I think that will come

10 with proposal wise that they need the support that

11 would come and the interaction that would come with

12 putting into the realm of negotiated rulemaking. 

13 Given some of the challenges around definitions

14 around you know what are these things, test methods

15 -- drawing the boundaries properly?

16 As someone said going after and

17 identifying the biggest opportunities within the

18 scope and focusing our efforts in the area it strikes

19 me that it makes sense so I am inclined to support

20 negotiating a rulemaking for this category.

21 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary with AHAM

22 and I agree with Andrew with one exception which is
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1 ice makers, stand-alone ice makers. AHAM you know

2 questions DOE's authority to set standards for those

3 products and so we don't agree that those should be

4 included or if they are included I think maybe we

5 just want to be up front with our position that we

6 would not agree to standards for those products so

7 you know it may go down the path where the motors,

8 you know where there were three and two got a yes and

9 one got a no, so I just want to be up front with that

10 now.

11 And with regard to the test procedure

12 issue that include the -- glad to discuss those there

13 are a lot of complicated things that need to be

14 decided upon before we can move to the standards

15 negotiations so we would certainly support that and

16 having that be completed before we begin to talk

17 about the standards, I'm glad to see that that is how

18 it has happened in the past. In addition I think

19 there are some product class issues for cooled

20 cabinets at least that should be addressed by the

21 working group so it sounds like it's -- the

22 negotiation would be open for all of that and so we
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1 would support that and participate in that as well.

2 MR. DELASKI: Charlie do you want to --

3 you are a manufacturer who has a stake in this so --

4 MR. HON: There are definitely these broad

5 spectrum categories, they are not really in some ways

6 they have similarities and in a lot of other ways

7 they have total disconnects and that has been the

8 negotiated rulemakings that I have been involved in

9 were very much the same way in the past.

10 In fact there was a far broader spectrum

11 than what this would take on so I did not see it as a

12 problem getting it done. There are a lot of

13 questions because due to the nature of things a lot

14 of the final result is the same thing. You are

15 cooling the product but to get there is not the same

16 process in any way shape or form so the question is

17 how do you regulate that as far as test procedures go

18 because do you have one test for one type of product,

19 a different test for a different type of product and

20 then you are comparing apples to oranges.

21 You don't really know which is actually

22 the most efficient system to be operating to get the
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1 same results -- so there's a lot of activity there. 

2 The ice machines -- there has been some objections in

3 the meetings previously about how they should or

4 should not be involved and it is sort of an orphan

5 child because ice machines are not necessarily

6 defined by the Department of Energy as clearly by

7 market as they are by volume. Right now the

8 Department says a commercial ice machine is above 50

9 pounds of ice generation per day and therefore

10 residential must be below 50 pounds of ice, but in

11 reality those lines are blurred by sales. There are

12 customers who want 100 pound ice machine on their

13 patio when they have the big pool and lots of

14 parties.

15 So that's another item we would have to

16 get involved in but I think it can be done and we end

17 up with another set of categories because when you

18 are blurring that line between commercial and

19 residential then the other government agencies get

20 involved and here is false labelling, so those are

21 all considerations.

22 MR. DELASKI: Diane?
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1 MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs from

2 Rheem and now it's on, okay. So I participated with

3 a working group with AEDM's and we covered commercial

4 HVAC and commercial refrigeration and I got to meet

5 people I didn't know and boilers and it took a lot of

6 time and you know it was interesting but I think

7 putting all of these miscellaneous products together

8 it might not be a good assumption that they look at

9 things the same way or they can be addressed in the

10 same manner, especially if they haven't dealt with a

11 rulemaking before, there's a lot of education I think

12 and I don't know if you can break it up into finer

13 than miscellaneous small things but it might be

14 helpful and you would get better participation I

15 think.

16 Especially I think someone said they were

17 depending on the manufacturers to provide data. So

18 it's a big expense for us to come and leave whatever

19 we are doing at home but if it is was more targeted

20 if you know maybe you take more advantage of using

21 teleconferences but I think if you really want strong

22 manufacturer participation it should be more targeted
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1 to the specific groups and I'm not sure if it is the

2 same manufacturers that would build all of this

3 equipment but maybe not, sorry.

4 Mr. DELASKI: Kelly?

5 MS. KLINE: Kelly Kline, just to build on

6 that because I was also kind of thinking the same

7 thing. I thought about is there a way to target it

8 and I was thinking about are there any lessons we

9 could learn from the pumps in the test procedure

10 piece because my train of thought is actually you

11 know is there a way to target the test procedure work

12 and the standards work because you may need some of

13 the more technical expertise in terms of the makeup

14 of the committee where you are working on the test

15 procedure issues.

16 So I have been thinking about it from that

17 perspective as well so I don't know if we did

18 anything like that on the pumps piece, if there were

19 any lessons there that we might be able to glean from

20 that but I was having the same thought.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: But if we did it in

22 transformers, this is John from DOE, so in the
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1 transformers working group, you know we started out

2 as one big happy family but as we went we did learn

3 that you know, the dry types didn't necessarily want

4 to be with the liquid types and we did, we broken

5 them out and had different meetings where one was

6 focused specifically on one of the types of

7 transformers so the group actually did splinter off

8 there so I think that there's again good precedence

9 for grouping these together and then having the

10 working group, people who really know the details

11 figure out the best way to proceed as they go

12 through.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, it strikes me

14 from this conversation that three months is a bit

15 short given the scope of both the test procedure and

16 coming to a grips with a standard where there might

17 be some contention about whether this ought to be

18 regulated or not so is it reasonable to assume that

19 the test procedures advance far enough for these, we

20 are just talking about things at the edges or are we

21 talking about starting from cold cloth on many of

22 these?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well I think we have a

2 proposal on the street for the test procedure that we

3 have gotten comments on so there are issues that I

4 think need to be resolved and I think that in order

5 to do that is a roundtable discussion so that we all

6 understand each other's point of view and come to

7 kind of an agreement about what some of those more

8 controversial issues it's not like writing a test

9 procedure from scratch so for sure.

10 And to Kelly to go back to your point

11 about parts and the makeup of the working group

12 specifically. So for parts it was all in one and

13 they would bring people to the meeting from their

14 different companies that they knew we were teamed up

15 a certain issue where a certain individual had

16 expertise. But similarly speaking that same company

17 would have an interest in both.

18 So the makeup of the working group in my

19 opinion didn't necessarily change to the test

20 procedure or the standard, but perhaps another person

21 joined to provide you know their technical expertise

22 or SME value to help along with the process and the
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1 discussions with that particular meeting.

2 MS. KLINE: Okay that makes sense.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

4 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon I have a

5 question for DOE. One category in this group tends

6 to be predominantly imported products. Have we had

7 any experience working with importers on this type of

8 a group?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would say this is

10 Ashley from DOE. Either predominantly the makeup for

11 our past working groups for a negotiation -- I would

12 say typically were manufacturers that have at least

13 domestic facilities or offices. They may also import

14 products but there is nothing that precludes

15 importers and international manufacturers from

16 participating and obviously we welcome anyone that's

17 affected by the rulemaking to participate and to the

18 extent we could reach out to them further we are

19 willing to do that.

20 MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew and I see a

21 lot of branding going on so we would offer a line of

22 appliances and some of them they make some of them
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1 they buy right and they have an interest in the whole

2 gamut of the rulemaking, GE does this, you don't make

3 everything you sell but things are under the GE badge

4 and that's a fairly common structure of the

5 marketplace I understand.

6 So I'm looking at our agenda, I would

7 certainly entertain some additional discussion on

8 this but I also think that we should probably due it

9 closer to a motion so there's going to be additional

10 discussion on this, yes?

11 MR. CASKEY: Hi John Caskey, just in terms

12 of the schedule. I mean I fundamentally thing that

13 the better you can scope something and the better

14 design your schedule is the more successful you are

15 going to be but from what I have heard so far from

16 Tom and Charles and others it seems like if I was

17 doing it I would consider like a month for just

18 people getting to know one another and to get the

19 scoping issues resolved and figure out how the

20 components are going to fall into groups and then

21 maybe a month or two to deal with some of the test

22 procedures and then three months of hard work.
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1 So from what I have heard it sounds like

2 maybe a six month period might be a more practical

3 period of time to as a goal as opposed to three or

4 four months.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 

6 Yeah I'm hearing that the time constraint and I guess

7 there are two schools of thought. You mentioned

8 holding their feet to the fire so we don't want to

9 give them too much time because they will take it

10 right so maybe we can say four months is your due

11 date and write into the charter if we do agree that a

12 two month extension is on the table if the work can't

13 be completed in four months but they will need to

14 give a status report at the four month mark, is that

15 fair?

16 MR. DELASKI: That seems reasonable to me

17 and I think part of what you are doing is you know we

18 are all going to -- some of us in this room are

19 experts in this technology area, Scott, John others

20 and others aren't. There is a PTSP that has been

21 published or a preliminary analysis of some form. 

22 There is a test that has been published so there is a
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1 baseline of work out there that needs to be -- we are

2 not starting from ground zero the question is how

3 much time do they need so I like this idea

4 recognizing that they might need more than four but

5 at the same time encouraging them to --

6 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman we

7 will put in the notice that that is required reading

8 before you attend the first meeting.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so let's move this to

10 a vote of the ASRAC members. I will say that Scott

11 Harris who couldn't be here voiced his support for

12 formation. His vote does not count but I said I

13 would state it for the public record. John Mandyck

14 did not offer an opinion on this particular issue. 

15 So the way we usually do this is we ask the group if

16 anybody is not in favor of forming this working group

17 under the terms we just discussed which is a four

18 month term sheet with the two month potential

19 extension but a report out at the four month mark. 

20 If anybody opposes the formation of this

21 working group, please raise your hand. Okay, seeing

22 none we have a unanimous consent to form a working
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1 group for miscellaneous refrigeration products. My

2 next point of business is to ask for a volunteer from

3 the ASRAC committee to participate in this working

4 group. As the ASRAC member your responsibilities of

5 course will be to be the ASRAC eyes, ears, you are

6 representing ASRAC in the negotiations and so I know

7 we have a few interested members, I would hope.

8 So if anyone wants to volunteer please

9 raise your hand. We have Charlie, okay so Charlie

10 Hon will be the ASRAC member, Joe Hagerman will be

11 the DOE member, we will draft a federal register

12 notice soliciting membership from stakeholders at

13 large we will get that out in the federal register as

14 soon as possible and set up a meeting schedule.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Thank you.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would just like

17 to say thank you for considering it I think it is

18 going to help us out tremendously and DOE thanks you

19 very much for that. Okay so next on the agenda is I

20 think commercial fans and blowers.

21 MR. DELASKI: So thanks to everybody that

22 was a good discussion and I think some of the issues
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1 will probably help some of the other topics as well

2 but the next topic is for fans and blowers. In our

3 packet we have a letter from AMCA International which

4 asks for this discussion and recommends a formal

5 negotiated rulemaking committee be formed. I have

6 also -- the letter references me, I have been part of

7 the private discussions with AMCA over the past

8 couple of years a number of efficiency advocates who

9 ASAP works with has met with the fan manufacturers

10 represented by AMCA deepening our knowledge of the

11 fan market and of some of the technical issues

12 involved in developing the standard for fans. This

13 is an interesting one, it's one where DOE is

14 exercising their authority to cover products in the

15 C&I space that is authorized to cover under the

16 statute but not required so the agency is moving

17 ahead to develop standards for fans.

18 And issued a framework a couple of years

19 now, initial analysis last fall that we reached a

20 point in some of these private negotiations where we

21 realized that it really would be better to push this

22 over to a public negotiation, one that's akin to
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1 what's been happening on other products.

2 And Wade Smith from AMCA is here today,

3 the letter is signed by Wade. I think our protocol

4 here is to keep the discussion here at the table but

5 if people have questions for Wade I certainly would

6 welcome you to ask those questions. The opportunity

7 here for fans is in our view is it's a pretty -- back

8 to the quads question that Deborah asked earlier, I

9 don't have a number for this one, we don't have it

10 but it is probably larger than miscellaneous

11 refrigeration if you put it that way in terms of the

12 potential you know, maybe probably a multiple.

13 It also raises some challenging issues

14 with respect to a fan is often a component and fans

15 go into other things, I see Diane nodding her head as

16 somebody who buys those fans and puts them into her

17 products so it raises some challenging issues as to

18 setting a standard for a product that is ultimately

19 going into another product that has to meet a

20 standard.

21 So that's going to be a topic for this

22 group to deal with, one that is an important topic
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1 that can be best wrestled with in the context of a

2 negotiated rulemaking that brings in this range of

3 stakeholders, not just the people who make fans but

4 the people who buy fans in some instances or make

5 them themselves and put them into their product.

6 So I think this broadening -- the breath

7 for those of us who have been involved in these

8 private discussions we thought that that's what we

9 can propose to this committee to put it into the

10 realm where it can be the full gamut of issues can be

11 raised both on the coverage issues and also because

12 it is a property regulated for the very first time

13 and that means back to these issues of metrics we

14 have just discussed we need to get those nailed down

15 in a consensus fashion is a constructive way to go

16 and therefore the recommendation that you see here is

17 one that is fully supported by the efficiency

18 advocates, the organizations that have been involved

19 in these private negotiations with AMCA to date.

20 MS. MILLER: Andrew this is Deborah Miller

21 I don't think we have a copy of that I haven't seen

22 it.
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1 MR. DELASKI: Oh it was emailed around I

2 thought.

3 MS. MILLER: It was emailed?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah I emailed it to

5 everybody.

6 MR. DELASKI: A short letter often --

7 MS. KLINE: I did see the AHRI one.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: That came separately but

9 there was an initial email that had two attachments

10 that being one of them.

11 MS. MILLER: Okay thank you.

12 MR. DELASKI: Anybody else not have it

13 besides Deborah? There are copies around if anybody

14 needs them.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: From DOE's point of view I

16 have got a little cheat sheet of you know back of the

17 envelope numbers that we think this is almost double

18 the impact of miscellaneous refrigeration you know,

19 just to put it in perspective in terms of savings.

20 MS. KLINE: Could you say a little more

21 Andrew about the types of fans that would be covered

22 I don't feel like I have a good understanding.
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1 MR. DELASKI: So the types of -- it's to

2 be determined right but the scope that was told -- we

3 have been talking about fans that would be rated for

4 horsepower or greater so that's been part of the

5 private discussions. And that was I believe the

6 scope that was initially scoped out by DOE in the

7 framework with one fan that would be 1 to 500

8 horsepower, 1/8th was the initial scope so in the

9 private discussions we focused on larger than that. 

10 So that would be a topic for negotiation that has

11 been -- the motors standards cover 1 to 500

12 horsepower intervals, horsepower motor standards.

13 MS. MILLER: It's Deborah Miller did you

14 want applications perhaps as well.

15 MS. KLINE: I'm having a hard time getting

16 my arms around exactly what that means.

17 MR. CYBALSKY: So at this point let's

18 break with a little tradition. Wade why don't you

19 step up to the microphone and you know Wade Smith is

20 the technical expert here from AMCA who can probably

21 address this very well.

22 MR. SMITH: Is this on? So there are 14
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1 in the commercial fan business, fan manufacturers

2 that have defined 14 types of fans. Four of those

3 are generally applied without duct work on the outlet

4 of the fan and that is an important distinction as

5 related to efficiency. Some of the fan categories

6 have no material difference in utility and so beg to

7 be lumped together so at the end of the day you end

8 up with about ten categories of fans in two broad

9 groups, those that are ducted and those which on

10 their output -- and those which are generally not

11 ducted on their output.

12 So just to help you relate the little

13 mushrooms that you see on top of building are roof

14 ventilators, those are exhaust fans. The -- if you

15 have ever looked inside your furnace you see a

16 forward curved fan, those fans extend up into much

17 larger packages that are used in commercial. There's

18 a backward incline fan, centrifugal fan which is

19 generally used at higher pressures, commercial

20 applications, processed applications, larger systems

21 and then there's -- we are an industry more than 100

22 years old with lots of niche opportunities and
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1 industry has morphed into a series of niches and

2 products serve those niches.

3 Actual fans, tube axle fans, vein axle

4 fans, propeller fans and then so those are sort of

5 between centrifugal and axial there are some that we

6 call a mixed flow fan which starts out as a

7 centrifugal and ends up as an axial which is a very

8 strange thing. For an application where the air flow

9 path is in line as opposed to a right angle where a

10 centrifugal fan is typically used. 

11 So it's a bunch of oddball stuff basically

12 and you know after 100 years it doesn't look so

13 oddball to those of us who are in the industry but I

14 think to the outsider it is a dog's breakfast of

15 different shapes and sizes and applications and

16 differences in utility as well.

17 That said through a good two and a half

18 years that we have been discussing this since the

19 original notice came out there have been a lot of

20 progress to try and you know make sense and that was

21 something that was simple enough for people to

22 understand and a lot of that -- I think the biggest
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1 work from my perspective has been getting the

2 manufacturers to you know understand what the impact

3 is going to be on them and to form a consensus. 

4 What we haven't done which is the next

5 step in the process is to broaden the stakeholder

6 group because this rule is going to impact lots of

7 folks, folks who buy fans, who employ them inside

8 their own products, but also folks who buy fans or

9 products that include fans in a private field in

10 commercial systems and you know there is impacts that

11 ripple through that matter.

12 And so our request for a public

13 negotiation was in recognition of the importance of

14 bringing all of those stakeholders to the table and

15 getting all the issues out.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks Wade and I would

17 like to say that I think one of those fans was in the

18 metro tunnel a couple of months ago, they didn't know

19 how to turn it on and all the smoke built up and we

20 appreciate a good fan in those circumstances I can

21 tell you that much.

22 Again a comment from the webinar here we
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1 can read in a little bit.

2 MR. DELASKI: Other questions or comments

3 on this? John.

4 MR. CASKEY: I guess two comments and/or

5 questions. One is a question dealing with do you

6 have any feel for what percentage of the fans we are

7 talking about are used in another product that might

8 already be regulated?

9 MR. SMITH: No. We know in great detail

10 about the fans that are manufactured many of which

11 that go on to other products but we are -- I would

12 say our discussions have not focused on -- we haven't

13 really paid too much attention truthfully at this

14 junction to fans that are embedded and that's

15 obviously a very, very important area.

16 MR. CASKEY: Okay thank you and sort of

17 my follow-up, this is John 

18 Caskey is that from our perspective it seems like it

19 is somewhat of a burden that if we are giving the

20 manufacturers of the heating and cooling systems and

21 other systems the obligation to meet a certain

22 efficiency standard and then we are turning around
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1 and now we are saying okay some of those components

2 within that system need a separate standard, that

3 personally concerns me in from what I'm learning I

4 really lean towards trying to do standards at the

5 system level as opposed to the very specific

6 component level and this going forward would be

7 exactly the opposite of that so I would be anxious to

8 hear what Diane or Kelly or others feel about that.

9 MS. JACOBS: Well since I was called on. 

10 Actually when I first read the rulemaking I assumed

11 that it would not cover fans in our equipment and I

12 think Title 24 is like that -- that if it is in a

13 rooftop unit it's not covered and then through other

14 discussions, other people disagreed and I don't think

15 it has really been clear that it would be covered and

16 we have gone through that with the furnace ban and

17 furnaces and all of it works together and it is very

18 difficult to optimize one component you know and then

19 have to make it work with the other component for

20 another goal if you have these targets that you know,

21 build on each other.

22 So it does make it very complicated and we
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1 would be really disappointed if that's how it turned

2 out.

3 MS. KLINE: I guess I have had the same

4 thought. I guess my and I can't think of any

5 examples of that, I guess my thinking had been that

6 if you were thinking about an appliance standard it

7 would cover the appliance at the envelope and as long

8 as that product met the standard covering that the

9 individual components within it, it could perform how

10 they perform so long as the product is at its

11 envelope for a lack of a better way to express it,

12 you know met the standard that covers it.

13 So I do think that would be something that

14 would be a concern if that was a -- if we were kind

15 of diverging from that concept.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: We sort of ran on that rock

17 on the pumps question because you have pumps that are

18 brand new integrated units that have a drive and a

19 control motor associated with and they go out the

20 factor door just like that, then you have

21 replacements and so the issue becomes in a

22 replacement market when you are buying a one off fan
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1 to replace in a furnace or area what do you do with

2 that product because it is no longer integrated at

3 the overall system dynamics and so that became the

4 question.

5 How do we deal with the replacement market

6 which is by far larger than the new market so that

7 was why we ended up regulating them in pieces as well

8 as the complete component so I think in fans you are

9 probably alike in that you will run into that same

10 situation where you have got to deal with this issue,

11 what do we do with replacement product when they are

12 fans in a box, that's it, even though they will go

13 into an integrated HVAC quota.

14 MS. KLINE: But the distinction being fan

15 in a box as opposed to fan in a covered, piece of

16 covered equipment.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Well fan in a box it goes

18 into that equipment because the existing fan failed.

19 MS. KLINE: But not fans sold in the

20 equipment?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Not fans sold in the

22 equipment initially yeah, so you have to deal with
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1 the replacement market somehow because the fan rating

2 may not necessarily match what the system design was

3 in the original box, the mutally shared equipment.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from the

5 DOE. I think with this question we just had about

6 you know is this one of the reasons why DOE sees a

7 strong benefit in going into a negotiated rule? You

8 know we have an put out some draft analysis on a

9 subset of fans. One of the things that I think we

10 struggle with and we would obviously I think benefit

11 from having discussions in a round table format with

12 attendees from the industry is how do you actually

13 distinguish a fan that goes in a box from a fan that

14 doesn't and what do we do and what should we do about

15 these different scenarios and let's discuss that

16 because right now we don't have a definition of fans.

17 We have authority for fans but no

18 definition so it's really within DOE's purview and

19 ultimately we are hoping what will become a working

20 group from you to define what does that look like? 

21 What is the scope of a definition? What types of

22 products are we talking about? What are the
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1 different streams you know? There are obviously

2 those in a box have different considerations than

3 those not in a box. 

4 How do you tell whether they are going to

5 be sold into a box? Perhaps some are some aren't so

6 maybe customed spec'd to an OEM some may not be and

7 they are just coming in. And so I think there's a

8 lot of different considerations some of which have

9 dealt with the motors and so -- but I think we need

10 to hear from the experts in a round table fashion to

11 work through some of these stickier issues and so I

12 think you are doing the strongest reason from at

13 least DOE's perspective to go through a round table

14 administrative role. So we are hoping you guys will

15 at least think about that.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me just read this

17 comment because I think it speaks to what Ashley just

18 discussed so on the phone Joe Hootman from Train as a

19 member of AMCA and AHRI Train endorses the commercial

20 fans and blowers on a rulemaking working group so you

21 know they are a person who provides fans so there is

22 at least -- and makes fans and so there is at least
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1 some support from one who purchases fans.

2 MR. DELASKI: Thanks and my understanding

3 is that AHRI did endorse onto a negotiation of your

4 written comments, so and of course AHRI members which

5 Diane is one and Joe another are having a stake in

6 this and I would expect them to be involved in this

7 to get that industry that is seeking participation in

8 the rulemaking process or in the reg. neg. process

9 and I think the analogy to motors John is a good one

10 because it challenges an interval horsepower motor,

11 it's a covered motor whether that motor is sold as an

12 individual part or it goes into something else.

13 And whether that thing it's in is subject

14 to another standard or not and the motor

15 manufacturers have sought that sort of consistency of

16 coverage so it is an issue that will have to be

17 wrestled with in the context of the reg. neg. and

18 that's about the best place to do it. Are there

19 other comments on this before we keep going?

20 MS. MILLER: Yeah excuse me it's Deborah

21 Miller, I just wondered how much time you are asking

22 for since this is somewhat complex? A lot of small
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1 details.

2 MR. DELASKI: It is complex, there's been

3 a lot of -- there is -- it's not a topic that -- it's

4 a topic that has been subject to regulation before in

5 the context of the APAC equipment but not in context

6 of a separate product.

7 Do you have thoughts actually on timing?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so my personal opinion

9 is I think something like three months or so is

10 reasonable at least for the first part. We did put

11 out a NODA as I said that had some analysis. In

12 response to that NODA we did get a lot of feedback, a

13 lot of specifically good comments. We do have plans

14 to revise that data site so that you guys understand

15 and have draft analysis up ready to go in the working

16 group, if and when the working group is commenced, so

17 I think that will help.

18 But for us to say we will have to revise

19 as a working group goes along but at least that will

20 be a good starting point that it takes into account

21 the NODA comments and so I think at least something

22 like a three month timeframe is a good one to start
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1 off with, to get people going to see out it goes. 

2 Three months -- but I am of the opinion you could

3 probably get it done in three months, unlike

4 miscellaneous refrigeration I mean hand test

5 procedures are fairly well established.

6 There is an industry test procedure,

7 people are using them, they do -- there is an

8 industry program you know that is run from AMCA it's

9 not necessary to offer new products in DOE's

10 regulatory world. It is not necessarily it's

11 agreement for industry that has data that has

12 supplied DOE data, that has been engaging in

13 discussion so I think three months is reasonable. I

14 don't know I mean DOE hasn't been involved in the

15 discussions today but you would have a good sense if

16 you think three months is at least enough.

17 MR. DELASKI: Well one of the advantages

18 that I think of been given a relatively short

19 deadline like that is you are saying three months

20 report back to the parent committee all right so we

21 are not authorizing folks to come out and come back

22 in a year right. You give them a pretty short time
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1 frame if they come back and tell us where you are at,

2 we hope you will be ready for the term sheet but we

3 recognize that you might not be and then we can

4 authorize another period of time. I think that would

5 be kind of the concept. 

6 That worked pretty well, we did it on --

7 MS. JACOBS: We have done it on all of

8 them pretty much.

9 MR. DELASKI: All of them pretty much, we

10 have a pattern here of really wanting to not let it

11 dawdle.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah and I will say for

13 one of the ones that I was involved in earlier this

14 week, Ashley from the DOE. We were able to negotiate

15 a subset so we sent back like a final term sheet that

16 had the majority of issues and we still had a couple

17 of other lingering issues that were more complex so I

18 mean you could do it in phases if the working group

19 decided it had more complex issues with certain types

20 of fans or you could keep going with that, it just

21 depends on -- but I think that's all for the working

22 group and if you get them a shorter timeframe if they
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1 wish to kind of get things going in the right way

2 from the outset I found that works well.

3 MR. DELAKSI: Other thoughts on timing? 

4 Any other discussion on this topic?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so let's put this

6 one up for a vote. From what I have heard the ask of

7 ASRAC is to form a working group for fans and blowers

8 with a streamline window of opportunity to report

9 back their findings. So with that general guideline

10 do I see any no votes, one question Charlie?

11 MR. HON: There was two earlier

12 conversations one horsepower and above and a comment

13 about 1/8th horsepower and above, what rule would

14 that be under?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be the working

16 group to figure it out, we don't have a scope -- the

17 definition would be set, would be discussed in that I

18 think.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: And what wasn't mentioned

20 before that Andrew went through the process a little

21 bit about the term sheet and the NOPR to DOE, this

22 ASRAC committee first has to approve the term sheet
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1 that comes out of the working group, all right so we

2 shouldn't skip that step so we all do get to vote on

3 what the working group well not me, you all get to

4 vote, Ashley gets to vote, so with that another

5 question?

6 MR. DELASKI: Ashley gets to vote.

7 MR. CASKEY: I'm not sure if it's a new

8 vote yet but is it possible to include in the

9 directions to the working group if one is

10 established, and we specifically ask them to evaluate

11 the pros and cons of not regulating the fans and

12 blowers that are used in another system such as an

13 HVAC system or some other kind of system?

14 MR. DELASKI: It might be John and this is

15 Andrew is that we don't have to ask that. It is a

16 major issue and I would just like to be a specific as

17 possible.

18 MR. CASKEY: Is there any reason to not

19 include that in their direction?

20 MR. DELASKI: My inclination would be not,

21 I don't know if we have given that kind of guidance

22 to our working group yet and I don't want to
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1 prejudice the working group. I don't think we want

2 to have that debate here all right, I think we want

3 the working group to wrestle with the issues as they

4 affect SME's who are on the working group who are

5 selected by us and the Department for the working

6 group and there are many issues that we haven't

7 discussed that are going to come up and I think this

8 issue of you know what's in what's out, that's part

9 of what we want the working group to address along

10 with task maps and along with levels and if we are

11 going to talk designating you have to deal with that,

12 our list is going to get pretty long.

13 And I wouldn't want to say I particularly

14 want you to address this issue. If this issue,

15 without going through the other issues that I want

16 them to have addressed.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Especially thinking of your

18 own experience on the pump issue we spent the first

19 three months, maybe four deciding what the scope was

20 and then it took a couple of meetings to get into the

21 standard after that.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE, I
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1 think the first meeting issue is going to be scope it

2 always is in all of these and in transformers you

3 know we went down the path with what about the ones

4 that are in the computer center ones or whatever they

5 were so I mean they will come up.

6 MR. DELASKI: And we could say we are

7 looking for you to address scope test methods levels

8 and I would be happy to say that but I don't want to

9 just call out just one thing that they have to

10 address. 

11 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey again and

12 as you know the system setting has been on my mind

13 for at least two years. You and I have talked about

14 and this to me is one of the areas where we can make

15 it almost like a test case, you know as we are moving

16 forward, not what we have done historically but as we

17 are moving forward is there an opportunity for us to

18 really put the onus on the manufacturers to look more

19 seriously at systems efficiency versus individual

20 component efficiencies and this is one example where

21 we could specifically ask them to do it and I think

22 again my perspective where scope is so critical to
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1 give them that this is an issue that is on our mind

2 going into it I don't see anything inappropriate

3 about that and the fact that we identify one specific

4 area for them to investigate without identifying the

5 other you know 99 things that they need to look at I

6 think is okay for me personally.

7 MS. JACOBS: I have just one question, not

8 a question a statement. Diane Jacobs thank you. So

9 the question of the in the box replacement parts, I

10 think that in general that once something is

11 installed or even once it leaves our factory it has

12 the potential to be installed with a certain

13 efficiency and a lot of things happen to it after

14 that and it may or may not live up to its potential

15 so the idea that we have to control the efficiency

16 after it's installed it may or may not have been

17 operated according to the test procedure assumptions

18 and then it breaks and then you go buy something at

19 some future date and it seems like such a large

20 disconnect from the initial rating of a piece of

21 equipment so if we had to figure out -- if we had

22 been in some way we were responsible for maintaining
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1 the efficiency level of the equipment we manufacture

2 throughout its lifetime, I mean I can tell you we are

3 not doing that now and it would be I can't even

4 imagine how we would do that.

5 So the idea that replacement parts have to

6 have a certain efficiency level because they might be

7 installed in a regulated piece of equipment, to me

8 this is like mind-boggling so I guess we have to

9 figure out what we are trying to accomplish and

10 whether there are bounds on it.

11 MR. DELASKI: Diane is that what we found

12 what John is saying about systems?

13 MS. JACOBS: Right.

14 MR. DELASKI: So you just can't be

15 responsible for what's happening to the system down

16 the road?

17 MS. JACOBS: Right, thank you.

18 MR. DELASKI: As a manufacturer,

19 controlled with coming out of your factory.

20 MS. JACOBS: Right, right.

21 MR. DELASKI: So it goes back -- this is

22 why the system is such a challenge for us to deal
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1 with as a program that regulates what a manufacturer

2 does. You know we can give the committee some

3 direction to consider system opportunities but I

4 would want to cast it broadly as opposed to try to --

5 MS. JACOBS: The system is regulated then

6 coming back and regulating sub-components because

7 they might be replaced at some future date, I mean is

8 just so complicated that I don't know -- I could see

9 why you might want to do that but it's so

10 disconnected and the people who are involved in those

11 purchase of replacement parts are so disconnected in

12 the application that it doesn't seem reasonable to

13 put that restriction on the original equipment

14 manufacturer.

15 MS. MILLER: This is Deborah, but that is

16 for the group to decide you know and there are

17 arguments to be made, you know.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And to your point I think

19 you are hearing all the reasons why it will be

20 discussed with definity at the working group, there's

21 no doubt about it regardless of whether we ask it or

22 not it is going to be.
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1 MR. DELASKI: So do you want to -- I'm

2 happy to have if you want to suggest that you want to

3 instruct or guide it --

4 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey with

5 NEMA. I guess in an ideal world there would be a

6 motion, something to the effect that the ASRAC

7 committee if that is not redundant, you know approves

8 the creation of the working group for this particular

9 area and I would just say in addition to that to

10 include in one of the things for them to

11 investigation is look at the pros and cons of this

12 systems perspective as it relates to fans and blowers

13 and the fact that they are often used in some other

14 larger system such as an HVAC system.

15 MS. MILLER: This is Deborah I have a

16 question. Does that mean that every -- and I'm find

17 with it but does that mean that every time now we

18 authorize a negotiation that we are going to have to

19 go through a series of things that we want to make

20 sure that they consider? I mean you may be opening

21 up not a Pandora's box but --

22 MR. CASKEY: I think if we as sort of
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1 experts and volunteers coming to this table have an

2 opinion on something in the future that the scope

3 should include this or not include that I mean we are

4 dictating to the time schedule if you will so I'm not

5 sure why if a specific area of research or

6 consideration should be looked at that we wouldn't

7 identify that -- I mean I would think that would be

8 part of our job personally.

9 MS. MILLER: It's Deborah, has it been

10 done before like that, that's what my question is I

11 don't know.

12 MR. DELASKI: I don't think it has been

13 done before. Our directives have been to negotiate a

14 term sheet as you see fit to recommend to the

15 government right, and then we get resumes that come

16 in.

17 MS. MILLER: Right.

18 MR. DELASKI: Who apply to be SME's who

19 have to select.

20 MS. JACOBS: So this is Diane Jacobs from

21 Rheem and I agree as a person who is rating these

22 notices you try to figure out what is going on and
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1 should I listen, should I go, I mean should I apply

2 -- what is going to be discussed, you know you have

3 to justify your travel, it all uses resources and I

4 think if we do give people an idea of what will be

5 discussed and even why and that you will get better

6 participation.

7 MR. DELASKI: And we can frame it as

8 including but not limited to --

9 MR. CASKEY: Absolutely that's what I was

10 going to suggest.

11 MR. DELASKI: Either negotiate --

12 Mr. CYMBALSKY: Systems and facts, so let

13 me try to take a crack at it. So something like this

14 I'm going to paraphrase but hopefully it will be

15 okay. So the motion is to form a working group to

16 create a term sheet for standards for boilers to

17 include discussion or content on the scope and the

18 test methods therein, okay?

19 MR. DELASKI: I'm not sure the word system

20 -- 

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: To me scope encompasses

22 that but I'll get the word in there somehow.
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1 MR. DELASKI: Potential system

2 interactions.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah something like that.

4 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, that's fine.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay we'll get that in

6 there. I get your point and I think we all agree

7 it's an important point here so.

8 Okay so before we vote I know again Scott

9 Harris through his support he can't vote, he can't be

10 here. Jenn Cleary is here she had to step out for

11 something but she has been listening on her phone and

12 she does not oppose the formation of this working

13 group so her vote does count. Does anybody else or

14 does anybody want to vote against the formation of

15 this working group? Okay, seeing none I should

16 address the question that came in from the webinar

17 that when we say three months what do we mean by

18 three months?

19 So it's three months from the formation of

20 the working group, not three months from today so

21 there will be a little delay in getting the working

22 group formed and what not but we hope to get the
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1 notices out as soon as possible. Okay, do we want to

2 take a quick break or do we want to --

3 MR. DELASKI: I suggest we take a quick

4 break, a five or ten minute break.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay good so it's 10:40

6 right now, let's come back at 10:50.

7 (OFF THE RECORD)

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay welcome back. This

9 is John from DOE. Finishing up the business from the

10 fans and blowers working group formation I forgot to

11 solicit someone from ASRAC to volunteer to be on the

12 working group for fans and blowers so Deborah Miller

13 is raising her hand?

14 MS. MILLER: Yes.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Anybody else? Diane

16 Jacobs? Okay so we have had two before which is fine

17 so you will have the pleasure or working with Ashley

18 Armstrong as the fan rule person, so that's good for

19 fans and blowers so with that we will move on to the

20 next topic and I'll turn it over to Andrew.

21 MR. DELASKI: Jen do you have a question

22 or a comment?
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1 MS. CLEARY: There was the opportunity to

2 talk to ASRAC members that I volunteered for the

3 refrigeration.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that was fine, we

5 will add Jen Cleary for the miscellaneous space.

6 MR. DELASKI: All right the next topic on

7 the agenda is commercial package air conditioners and

8 commercial furnaces. A letter was emailed around in

9 our packet for the meeting, Deborah you probably got

10 this one?

11 MS. MILLER: I got that.

12 MR. DELASKI: Okay from Karim Amrane and

13 Steve Nadel, Karim who is here today on behalf of

14 both AHRI, Air Conditioning, Heating and

15 Refrigeration Institute and Steve Nadel on behalf of

16 the American Council for Energy Efficient Economy. 

17 The letter references some initial discussions that

18 have happened between AHRI members and members of the

19 Efficiency Advocacy community about negotiated

20 rulemaking and jointly recommends that this

21 rulemaking be put to a negotiated process. I have

22 also participated in some of those private meetings
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1 so I have some direct involvement.

2 This rule is one that is required by

3 statute, and will make a final rule by statute is due

4 by the end of the year correct me if I am wrong. It

5 is one that the initial, the analysis done for the

6 proposed rule indicate that this is the largest

7 saving rule in the history of the Department. It is

8 a very large savings opportunity comparing annual

9 operation by the agency.

10 There are some bigger ones that Congress

11 has enacted but if you look at what DOE has done for

12 the rulemaking authority it is the biggest savings

13 opportunity based on the analysis done to date. So

14 in our view it is a very important rule. The

15 stakeholders have had these initial discussions with

16 full knowledge of what the proposed rules are. This

17 is somewhat of an unusual situation because the

18 proposed rules have not been published for both air

19 conditioners and for commercial furnaces.

20 You know this goes back to John's systems

21 issue which is that these are two pieces of equipment

22 that are in the same box so there is a logic to
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1 including them in the same discussion of the

2 commercial furnace and the commercial air

3 conditioners since they are sold in the same region

4 providing two functions in many instances.

5 It is somewhat unusual that the

6 stakeholders who are most active in these dockets

7 have come together at this point and asked us to

8 approve a negotiated rulemaking once the proposed

9 rule has come out but I also think that we have an

10 opportunity where you have the major stakeholders

11 come together and say look we know what the NOPR's

12 are and we have the will to work together to come up

13 with a recommendation for a final rule, that speaks

14 to me a lot that once you take advantage of that will

15 and interest, desire to work together to come up with

16 a recommendation and a term sheet that can be used as

17 the basis for a final rule with full knowledge of

18 what the proposal is from the agency.

19 There is also one key factor in this one

20 which is back to this notion of the product -- the

21 overall product, including both the furnace and air

22 conditioner. We heard from industry a strong desire
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1 to align the effective dates, that the effective date

2 for both products you are going to have to re-design

3 the product in response to the standard, let's not do

4 it once for the furnace and once for the air

5 conditioner that go into the same box so a lot of

6 value on the effective date.

7 So I think one of the advances of pushing

8 this to a negotiated rulemaking is that it enables us

9 to tackle them together and come up with a term sheet

10 that would then have a consistent effective date

11 which may or may not happen through the normal

12 rulemaking process. So I think that's an advantage

13 of this is that this value which the industry really

14 values and which we value because they could actually

15 rule out and reduce the costs to comply to order the

16 engineering at once and that's a better way to do it.

17 So that's my thoughts on this one I

18 clearly support this one, I am open to discussion.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. 

20 So notwithstanding all of the good things that Andrew

21 said we may or may not agree with all statements. We

22 did have a similar situation with commercial ice
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1 makers where the Department had put out a proposal

2 and ASRAC was requested to form a working group to

3 negotiate a final rule and ASRAC did not approve of

4 that on the basis that we don't think ASRAC has the

5 DFO for ASRAC. ASRAC is not here to be in lieu of

6 the normal rulemaking process that DOE follows so

7 that is a notice and comment process.

8 So in this case we do have NOPR's out as

9 Andrew said with both products. We have had public

10 comment on both products and DOE does recognize this

11 energy is here so reducing the burden by firing up

12 the liberal base and so I see it both ways but I

13 think it would be remiss of me not to point out to

14 the members here for safety and voting that you know

15 there is some precedent to not negotiate the NOPR's

16 out.

17 Essentially even DOE would be partners in

18 negotiation, we have kind of laid our cards on the

19 table so just to put that out front that it would be

20 sort of unprecedented to go down this path so with

21 that I will turn it over to Andrew.

22 MR. DELASKI: Comments from the group,
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1 Tom? 

2 MS. MILLER: I have a comment, this is

3 Deborah Miller. Even though I know it's not been

4 done before Ashley and John having been with the

5 trade association that sued the Department you don't

6 want to go through that and this is just my own

7 personal opinion and especially the study needs to

8 have the energy efficiency groups and the

9 manufacturers engrained and wanting to work something

10 out.

11 It's you know, I know it's not been done

12 before but perhaps this might be a better route and a

13 shorter route. 

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean we like the idea of

15 not being sued. If we could write that into the --

16 (LAUGHTER).

17 MS. MILLER: It's a fact of life.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I know,

19 interestingly enough I'm glad that you brought that

20 up because the manufacturer housing room group

21 members on the committee would not actually agree to

22 not sue the Department even if they voted yes so I
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1 appreciate that sentiment. We actually -- one of the

2 reasons that we do this is so that we avoid

3 litigation and try to work these things out however I

4 think we have had strong support from people

5 participating to agree not to sue us even though they

6 agreed with the --

7 MS. MILLER: I agree.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So again that again what

9 is the Department giving if they don't get that. I

10 made that point at the manufacture housing, but it is

11 a good point.

12 MR. DELASKI: Charlie Hon?

13 MR. HON: A lot of this sounds similar to

14 what was discussed in the last set of meetings I was

15 involved with because the HVAC group was involved in

16 those as well. Are there duplications crossovers or

17 are -- is this objective to reopen additional

18 conversation on the same topics?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So a letter didn't exactly

20 speak to you know the full topic but it is my

21 understanding that there would be different topics

22 that they actually just wanted to negotiate levels in
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1 this case. You know, and an analysis behind those

2 levels and that basic certification or some of the

3 other issues that have already at least in the

4 Department's opinion could be put to rest.

5 MR. DELASKI: Jen?

6 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary. I think when we

7 in the rulemaking where this Committee did not

8 approve the negotiation my memory is telling me that

9 there was more to it than just the stage in the

10 rulemaking process. I thought I remembered an

11 element also where both parties were not agreeing to

12 want to pursue negotiations, correct me I think I

13 remember.

14 MR. DELASKI: So that's correct, there was

15 a request from the ice maker manufacturer to put it

16 to a rec. neg. but it did not have support from

17 anyone but the ice maker manufacturers so there

18 wasn't a broad recommendation like you are seeing

19 today from the first stakeholders.

20 And then the other feature that was

21 happening there was the Department had made a

22 commitment to some additional workshops to help work
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1 for the modeling and that analysis helped the final

2 rule come out later in the year and challenged and so

3 that process seems to have played out.

4 MS. CLEARY: And so part of that too was

5 that there was no indication that there would be

6 agreement for the negotiation?

7 MR. DELASKI: Right we didn't have -- my

8 recollection is similar to yours that we didn't have

9 confidence that it would be tried in a committee that

10 would be successful given the lack of broad support

11 for the creation of the committee so it seemed a bit

12 of a -- which is quite different in this case where

13 you have a range of stakeholders suggesting that they

14 would recommending the committee so the odds of

15 success are higher.

16 MS. MILLER: Are you asking for three

17 months and do you think I'll ask a question that you

18 probably can't answer, do you think there is a high

19 probability that you will come to some sort of

20 agreement since we are going against what the

21 Department usually does in opening up a NOPR?

22 MR. DELASKI: I do think that there is a
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1 high probability of success based on the

2 conversations that I have been involved in. I also

3 would just take issue from you earlier that it is not

4 unique having advocates and manufacturers to agree,

5 we often agree.

6 MS. MILLER: We could talk about that. We

7 agree a lot after or we would agree a lot after a lot

8 of discussion.

9 MR. DELASKI: After some discussion right

10 so I think that the discussion here is what needs to

11 happen and of course the government is involved in

12 this discussion as well that's why we do it through

13 reg. neg. and the timing on this one I think is

14 critical because the government has to comply with

15 the legal deadline at the end of the year. 

16 And so that means and again what we are

17 recommending here is a term sheet, it would be my

18 hope that the term sheet would become the basis for a

19 final rule because there already is a NOPR. It

20 depends what the term sheet is because this will be

21 an issue for the Department lawyers to figure out if

22 a term sheet will require an S NOPR or not. It is
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1 something that I would hope that we can avoid because

2 it will make it harder to meet the legal deadlines,

3 all right.

4 So that's going to depend on the term

5 sheet, Deborah?

6 MS. MILLER: Can you with this Ashley,

7 Deborah -- I mean can you and John live with this?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm sorry, I have a

9 question, the Department is unclear.

10 MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs and my

11 background has been residential and only in the last

12 year I have been you know going through these

13 rulemakings as they came out and so my understanding

14 is new but it seems to be kind of a big jumbled mess

15 to me because of the interaction with ASHRAE 90.1 and

16 there was an understanding that we are always looking

17 to plan and how to allocate our facilities and our

18 engineers and we thought that 90.1 would be a

19 precursor and then it would become a minimum and then

20 you know and there would be this kind of marching

21 through a certain process and we anticipated that it

22 would be followed, that process and now it is not.
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1 And I mean there's this kind of paralysis

2 about what do we do, are we developing products we

3 won't be able to sell or will only be able to sell

4 them for a few years and we should be doing something

5 more and there is also Title 24 and there is CEE and

6 all of these tiers and I mean I couldn't have seven

7 lines of commercial equipment to reach all of these

8 levels and I think it is something where we talk

9 about the basic models and to go back and forth in

10 writing we could -- I don't think we will reach the

11 same understanding that we were able to in that ASRAC

12 working group talking to each other directly.

13 So Rheem supports the formation of the

14 ASRAC committee for this working group for this

15 topic.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think through the

17 Department's perspective, you know you heard John say

18 at the outset this is kind of new territory. From

19 DOE's perspective I think it strongly feels that

20 there's a place for negotiations. Obviously we

21 strongly support that but at least with the

22 Department it's early on. It's not actively that we
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1 show our cards and a proposed rule and someone wants

2 to complaint to ASRAC.

3 That wasn't the intended purpose of ASRAC,

4 that wasn't you know there's a lot of people that may

5 or may not agree with our proposals for a variety of

6 different reasons but we typically would like to see

7 negotiations way earlier in the process an engagement

8 from all stakeholders earlier on in the process so

9 there is some strong concern from the Department as I

10 said that people will have to pay attention to until

11 after they are over and then all of a sudden they can

12 come to ASRAC and say you know take DOE's process

13 away we want to negotiate.

14 And I'm not saying that's what happened

15 here, I'm not saying people weren't involved earlier,

16 so don't take that the wrong way but I am choosing

17 from the Department's perspective I am going to hear

18 on the Committee as to is this an isolated thing or

19 are we setting something where we are doing a whole

20 new process for you know DOE and then all of a sudden

21 people are going to negotiate because the answer is

22 not right there and like Andrew said, we weren't sure
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1 on the ice makers and we have had people ask about

2 other avenues.

3 And we do have other avenues to address if

4 there are concerns with the analysis we have avenues

5 to address data and we are willing to do re-analysis

6 and we put that out for comment. There are other

7 avenues that the Department has and tools for

8 addressing this stuff post NOPR. To me this is the

9 right you know, this negotiation committee is the

10 right one for this particular and what is why for

11 this particular instance.

12 MR. DELASKI: John?

13 MR. CASKEY: Yeah I think those are all

14 good points. I can -- this is John Caskey with NEMA

15 and I appreciate those points and DOE's perspective

16 and sort of being an outsider on this particular

17 issue I don't know if this is done simply with the

18 recommendations from the working group is sort of a

19 reactive thing where it is like we don't like your

20 preliminary answers so we are going to try and

21 circumvent that one way or the other so I understand

22 that sort of side of the puzzle.
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1 But the other thing is being involved with

2 the transformer work, I know that there was a huge

3 amount of discovery and just verifying the models

4 that you were using and your consultants were using

5 was pretty critical and I know there was a lot of

6 open information provided by the manufacturers within

7 that process as well as I know there was some

8 confidential things done with the manufacturer

9 provided DOE sort of cost information and other

10 things, confidentially and behind the scenes to make

11 the final product as accurate and effective as

12 possible so I don't know if you can answer this on

13 behalf of DOE do you think the analysis that you have

14 done is -- or can be or do you think additional

15 discovery of validating where the calculations you

16 might have done as well as your costs and other input

17 assumptions, could use refinement by doing this

18 negotiated process.

19 Because from my experience that discover

20 was the biggest from the negotiated rulemaking

21 process.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So honestly we put forward
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1 what we thought was our best analysis published in

2 the NOPR. Sure if someone has additional data we

3 would like to validate, I can say the both of us have

4 always been at different paths, I think there is some

5 value there. We have other avenues to do that, and

6 ice makers, that's exactly the exercise we did for

7 ice makers, post NOPR we did it through the NODA

8 process and the interview process.

9 But the key to all of that is people

10 coming to the table with data, with analysis with

11 good will so like I said I think it goes back to the

12 point you know why would this one be isolated? Or is

13 this you know turning the table into something that

14 is going to become more common practice going

15 forward?

16 MR. DELASKI: Diane?

17 MS. JACOBS: I think this was a little bit

18 complicated by the fact that we are switching energy

19 metric so the AHRI had developed an integrated

20 energy, IEER I don't know what it stands for anymore

21 but so to deal with variables in data equipment and

22 that aspect of it is new and there's assumptions
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1 associated with that and the interaction between the

2 old energy metric and the new one and I'm not sure

3 that they -- it's more a matter of choices, the

4 manufacturers made versus whether there is a real

5 relationship there and there were also issues with

6 utilities who were more interested in the EER would

7 be more associated with the most energy the equipment

8 could use or peak consumption where this integrated

9 energy metric has more to do with how much the

10 building owner would actually see in consumption.

11 So it's complicated and -- go ahead.

12 MR. DELASKI: I understand and I agree

13 with your concerns actually I share them

14 wholeheartedly. I don't think that ASRAC should be

15 an appeals court, all right, that's not what we set

16 out to be and we shouldn't be an appeals court

17 because we don't have the expertise to be an appeal's

18 court, right.

19 Across the board of all the products that

20 DOE regulates, I think you know there are lots of

21 things about this particular rulemaking that are

22 unusual but that is probably true for every
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1 rulemaking. Everyone has its own little structural

2 package of characteristics.

3 MS. JACBOS: But this is the largest one

4 in history.

5 MR. DELASKI: I come back to there's a

6 will on the part of the key stakeholders to try to

7 make a best effort to move the consensus knowing what

8 the NOPRs are and if we don't get that consensus then

9 you will issue a final rule as you must by statute,

10 and you know but to be able to have the opportunity

11 to try to represent this on the biggest rule in

12 history is something that I think is extra effort in

13 this case given the will of the stakeholders to come

14 together and you know that's an unusual fact.

15 Back to Deborah's point it's an unusual

16 package, I don't think it is going to replicate

17 across the board because you are not going to have --

18 I agree with you it would have been better to have

19 done this a year ago but we didn't so where do we

20 stand today is a will to try to come to consensus and

21 I think this should have a pretty short -- it needs

22 to have a short life because if we can't meet
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1 consensus then you need to get working on the final

2 rule which as you know based upon the review time

3 that OMB needs to be written in the summer, last

4 summer, right. The end of the year publication

5 really needs to be written in the summer so we really

6 need to get the consensus by June 1st or something,

7 it's a tall order.

8 MS. MILLER: So this is Deborah so are you

9 asking for three months or are you asking for one

10 month, what are you asking for?

11 MR. DELASKI: Well the clock on this one

12 is certainly not longer than the other ones. April,

13 May, June -- end of June really to give us three

14 months right so I think it's probably three months. 

15 I think less than three months probably isn't

16 realistic right to give less than three, but three

17 months is already too much.

18 So in this case extension probably won't

19 be forthcoming because of the statutory deadline

20 which we take very, very seriously.

21 MS. JACOBS: Diane Jacobs, I think part of

22 it will be that you know we recognize that the
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1 Department looks at our data when manufacturers do

2 provide data that the time is short, that maybe we

3 don't understand exactly why things were decided a

4 certain way, it might give us a way with the -- you

5 know, kind of day to day interaction that we could

6 provide data that would be effective instead of

7 collecting reams of data that no one can look at.

8 So even that short of time I think is

9 worth the effort. 

10 MR. DELASKI: Other comments, Jen?

11 MS. CLEARY: Forgive me if this was

12 already this is Jen Cleary, forgive me if this was

13 already discussed and I just passed over it, just

14 tell me and I'll figure it out but can you tell me a

15 little bit about the early stages of this rulemaking

16 like was the process improvement rule followed for

17 example for their -- what kinds of early

18 opportunities were there to decide on the negotiation

19 input state?

20 MR. DELASKI: The process of the rule

21 calls for an A NOPR which Congress removed in 1980 is

22 that right so the process of improvement rule calls
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1 for steps that our Congress eliminated. So there was

2 always there, there was a request for information I

3 think was the initial stage for this one. There was

4 an RFI -- it's a complicated legal history because

5 Congress required a new standard.

6 Congress and AEMTCA created a new deadline

7 for an agency and resulted in a --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley with DOE. 

9 This is a rule for ASHRAE products unlike other

10 products it doesn't follow the same guidelines so DOE

11 is going to hear the number or issue a determination

12 and that's in the statute so it's a little bit

13 different here.

14 You know so our caution is someone to --

15 although we did all the analyses and the interview

16 process and assisting.

17 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen, General

18 Counsel. So it's even more complicated than the

19 normal ASHRAE product because typically those are

20 keyed off of an action by ASHRAE that will trigger

21 the Department to act or react to that in a set time

22 frame. But in addition to that I point out there was
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1 this old ruling of a requirement which we should look

2 at maybe that was imposed in statute. So ASHRAE

3 acted to change the metric in the middle of that so

4 it is a whole complex statutory mechanism in play.

5 MR. DELASKI: Charlie?

6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, I have a question. 

7 I hear metric changes in the middle of this. This is

8 a very -- shall we say difficult talk to deal with,

9 is there any correlation between the old methods and

10 the new or are they totally unrelated because of test

11 standard change. 

12 MR. COHEN: It was the ASHRAE change that

13 kind of -- this is Dan Cohen.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are not completely

15 unrelated but are not exactly like a one to one

16 relationship either. We are going from a full load

17 metric to what I would call a multi-department

18 measure so it encompasses the part load but it also

19 encompasses other points as well and then we have

20 those points all summed up. ASHRAE has had both

21 measures for a while, DOE issued an RFI to switch

22 over, we can only have this metric for the program so
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1 yes we have a test procedure change, we do have

2 radios out there with both right now.

3 People -- manufacturers are making

4 representations of both the full load and the part

5 load and so we are moving to that part load so there

6 is some data out there at least in the manufacturing

7 community. We did some testing and we did a lot of

8 modeling and so obviously we could all benefit from

9 sitting around the table and talking about data and

10 the analysis.

11 I don't think DOE ever questions that. At

12 any point in time we always benefit from that. We

13 like how that works however I guess the question is

14 timing more than anything, go ahead sorry.

15 MR. CASKEY: Are you sure you are done?

16 MR. DELASKI: John?

17 MR. CASKEY: I didn't bring my homework

18 materials with me but can you tell me again who were

19 the people that are supporting this by groups? When

20 you say stakeholders, all the stakeholders or a

21 majority of them or what?

22 MR. DELASKI: Boy dare I say all the
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1 stakeholders? I don't know all but let's put it this

2 way so there have been private meetings and at the

3 private meetings that I was at it was AHRI and their

4 members, the gamut of efficiency advocates who I work

5 with were named in the letter, including my

6 organization, Tom's organization, I'm not sorry you

7 are not listed here but with energy efficiency

8 alliance Tom works with the northwest region and our

9 DC save energy, the California investor owned

10 utilities.

11 In addition the representatives of ARCA

12 which is the contractors association expressed

13 support in the meeting I was at as did the

14 distributors represented by Hardy and they are

15 indicated here in the letter as well so pretty broad

16 support. I don't know of any stakeholder who in terms

17 of those folks who would not, of course this is the

18 opportunity, they would apply, additional

19 stakeholders could apply.

20 MS. KLINE: Just I guess a question and a

21 thought and I'm trying to think through the question

22 about the timing and the concern about the timing,
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1 the rulemaking here and I'm wondering if one way to

2 get at it when a request comes to this stage is there

3 a list of defined issues that would benefit from a

4 consensus negotiation around them as opposed to say

5 the rulemaking as a whole?

6 You know is there something that is there

7 a define and scope that could be you know, maybe more

8 limited and focused than you know if there was three

9 programs and I don't know the answer to the question

10 here I'm just not familiar enough with the specifics

11 but I'm wondering if that may be one way to get at it

12 and that kind of bridge the concerns on the timing?

13 MR. DELASKI: I'm drawing a blank. I

14 think that the scope is certainly the scope intended

15 by the stakeholders is the basis for a final rule

16 that would address standard levels. I don't think it

17 was the intention as was earlier discussed to re-open

18 certification or re-open basic model, I see shaking

19 of the head agreement with what I am saying.

20 MS. KLINE: Well then maybe that becomes

21 the standard narrowing it to the standard level.

22 MR. DELASKI: I know it's complex in terms
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1 of the -- but this one is far along right, we have a

2 robust analysis by DOE, we have comments that have

3 been filed right so we all can read the comments so

4 and then the desire then is can we reach a consensus

5 on those.

6 MS. KLINE: Yeah it just strikes me that

7 you know taking into account what the stakeholder

8 agreement is to figuring out a way to kind of best

9 frame the open.

10 MR. DELASKI: Yeah.

11 MS. KLINE: The truly open points that

12 would still benefit from the consensus negotiation

13 might be one way that.

14 MR. DELASKI: Right and one of the issues

15 I think kind of what Ashley is implying you know is

16 that currently what you would do at this point is

17 take all of these notes, someone and John and Ashley

18 know rules always change with the final rule. 

19 Analysis always changes right because there is always

20 input and they have to consider the input and the

21 input results in changes.

22 So some of what is happening here that the
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1 stakeholders are inserting themselves into that

2 process or asking to be inserted into that process of

3 what are the changes that might make sense you would

4 ultimately would influence what we select.

5 And ultimately the Department has to --

6 will be having to you know make decisions on how they

7 change their analysis or don't change their analysis

8 based on the comments in the docket as well as I

9 would hope the recommendations of this working group.

10 MR. COHEN: So this is Dan Cohen General

11 Counsel's Office, so the data that actually creates

12 additional complexity here in terms of the timing

13 because we do have a proposed rule on the street now. 

14 We have a closed comment period, we have issues if

15 you do negotiate a rulemaking now and in fact typical

16 ground rules of the negotiated rulemaking is that we

17 promise if there is a consensus to publish that

18 consensus as a proposal. We might actually have to

19 do depending upon what the analysis leads to, what

20 changes occur with the proposal making, you might

21 have to do a supplemental proposal which kind of

22 takes us all the way back to the beginning with the
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1 deadline, basically irrelevant we'll never make that.

2 The legal complications of coming up with

3 a whole essentially a new proposal in the midst of

4 and add with the close of the comment period on an

5 already on-going rulemaking does create some

6 significant legal issues that we would have to figure

7 out.

8 MR. DELASKI: An ask NOPR is not unheard

9 of?

10 MR. COHEN: Not unheard of but it does

11 again from the time repurposes for the statute, I

12 mean there are other ways that we look at doing

13 things like a NOPR, like the ice makers is the

14 perfect example on that. You know we didn't do a

15 supplemental proposal but we were able to put out

16 additional data that didn't change the --

17 MR. DELASKI: Right.

18 MR. COHEN: The structure that created the

19 initial proposal but if you are opening up the

20 entirety of that rulemaking which is what you have

21 just said in terms of the scope, you know, you may be

22 beyond where we were in the situation like ice makers
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1 and we may be back having no choice but to basically

2 undo everything that was done and start from scratch.

3 MS. MILLER: This is Deborah I have a

4 question. Does that mean, I assume that the

5 effective date does not change, is that legislatively

6 mandated?

7 MR. DELASKI: I think you have got a good

8 date, this one is T'd off, help me out, T'd off of

9 the final rule.

10 MR. COHEN: There were changes again the

11 complexities of the ASHRAE provision in that case was

12 three years from now, from the publication of the

13 final.

14 MR. DELASKI: Jen?

15 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary. Ashley

16 and Dan you have both mentioned you know other

17 avenues that the Department could take here so if

18 this Committee didn't approve the negotiation do you

19 have plans to do that or would that need to be

20 requested, you know, how would the time line be

21 affected there?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from
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1 DOE, you know I think we would be willing to commit

2 here if our industry was on other -- you know part of

3 the situation to the extent that the Committee

4 thought that according to you know detailed areas or

5 a public meeting about the tool or you know, I don't

6 know exactly what the issues are, however the

7 comments or at least all of the issues, I know some

8 of them but I would be willing to commit here to

9 other change as we have done previously.

10 MR. DELASKI: Karim do you want to come to

11 the mic?

12 MR. AMARANE: I think what's being raised

13 in the discussion, Karim Amarane with AHRI, it's the

14 fact of what you mean by a tool making here, that DOE

15 is willing to act separately which in fact it goes to

16 one product.

17 And DOE is looking at those tool making

18 independently as if one did not even exist so what I

19 am saying here is that it makes a lot of sense to

20 bring those two together and I think negotiation is

21 really the way to do it so that the end product will

22 be something that will satisfy fully the heating side
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1 of the product.

2 So that's a key fact that right now has

3 been missing from the current process. There is

4 another issue here, we are talking about furnaces, we

5 are talking about AC's which have different cases and

6 we would like to bring those two entities together,

7 for one product.

8 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from General

9 Counsel. There's nothing that prohibits us from

10 doing those documents to get those two documents as

11 final rules, to get -- we could essentially issue

12 them as one big document and we would have to look at

13 whether there are any analytical issues you know

14 putting it together with having had the analysis work

15 together that creates some issues for having to do

16 re-analysis but that's an issue we can put out if we

17 determine that was the case, we can put out an

18 analysis for additional comment but as a legal matter

19 we could do those documents together.

20 MR. AMARANE: Again this is Karim Amarane

21 with AHRI the analysis so far has looked at those two

22 separate and I think that's at the table to be
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1 combined. I think we could benefit here.

2 MR. DELASKI: David?

3 MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David Hungerford

4 with the California Energy Commission. I am

5 concerned about the timing of scope issues that have

6 been raised here. I don't see that there's enough

7 time to discuss the more active issues that have been

8 raised already in additional to the others that no

9 one has mentioned.

10 In a working group effectively, my

11 experience with a working group is that it takes you

12 know three months is a very fast time-line after the

13 formation of the Committee which means four months

14 from now and I don't see how that works with the

15 timeline for the rulemaking in the requirements. 

16 I'd be very concerned that this could

17 derail the process in some uncomfortable way and I

18 would urge the DOE to look at seeing if they can

19 resolve some of the major issues which I presume have

20 all been raised in comments and address them in that

21 way rather than forming working groups that could --

22 unless there is some way to limit the scope of the
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1 working group to a few narrow issues, I don't see how

2 you discuss the breadth of the issue to find the

3 scope of the working group and do the normal working

4 group process in this kind of timeframe, that's my

5 major concern.

6 MR. DELASKI: Let me provide a little bit

7 more background which is that the parties have met

8 twice privately and are meeting -- have created two

9 small working groups that are working tomorrow at

10 Berkeley at Labs with the contractor doing the

11 modeling okay.

12 And then the other one is meeting at the

13 end of this month to talk about engineering analysis. 

14 These meetings are happening privately although the

15 union contractors have been invited and are

16 attending. So the purpose of doing those meetings

17 was to keep to address the timing issues that you are

18 addressing so the parties are recognizing their line

19 and recommending and are also intending to meet --

20 would like to meet privately in advance of the reg.

21 neg. getting formed who are active in the negotiation

22 on a private basis.
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1 Those very reasons to keep momentum and

2 recognize the deadlines. I think as a commitment

3 those meetings then make a commitment working out a

4 consensus and to try to develop that can be the basis

5 for a joint recommendation or a NOPR that the

6 Department would publish or final rule.

7 That timing I agree with you David that

8 that's a challenge but I think what you are seeing

9 with these meetings going on today and at the end of

10 the month is the commitment or part of the commitment

11 to meet the time deadline. It strikes me that we had

12 a discussion in these private discussions about well

13 can we just do this privately do we need to ask for a

14 reg. neg.? 

15 Why can't we just get together in a room

16 and work it out like we have before many times with

17 AHRI and its members and other appliance

18 manufacturers. And the way that discussion went was

19 we need the Department in the room with us and the

20 Department can't be in the room with us except for

21 through this mechanism giving the timing.

22 So that was part of the reason to ask for
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1 the reg. neg. as opposed to doing privately was to

2 have the discussion with the meetings in the room as

3 part of the time as opposed to simply someone

4 throwing it over the ball at the end of the process

5 for what is the biggest rulemaking in the history of

6 the agency, it's worth going the extra mile to take

7 these extra steps even if time is short to try to get

8 to a rule that will be probably supported in the end.

9 So my sense is that we should probably try

10 to wrap this discussion given our agenda here, I

11 guess the questions is you know I think in essence

12 here to move from this corner of the room. But I

13 don't that will improve our rec. neg. whoever would

14 enact these objections right so it would be kind of

15 awful right.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't vote.

17 MS. MILLER: We should have.

18 MR. HON: I have a question as well

19 exactly because I have seen this as a 30 day notice

20 to bring people in, two months of discussions at best

21 we are up to July and there's two months of

22 discussions I don't see getting everything done. And
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1 if you are not ready by July could you make it by the

2 end of June.

3 MR. DELASKI: Well there is an analogy

4 here that we had on transformers right, the

5 government was actually inviting four contractors

6 right, well we were actually trying to write the

7 proposed ruling that we were trying to negotiate you

8 know, it is double duty right because they have to

9 for the contractors, but they did it on transformers

10 and it does create significant tension for them

11 because they have to be on a double track right.

12 They are both trying to support the

13 negotiation and are having to meet their own

14 deadlines in the event consensus is not reached. 

15 And on transformers they published the consensus that

16 we reached and they published a proposed rule where

17 we didn't reach consensus.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think to Charlie's

19 point that also reasons -- Ashely from DOE -- the

20 real important people coming to the table with

21 whatever data, with whatever analysis, with whatever

22 you know technology issues from these private
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1 meetings that they are having it should be decided to

2 negotiate then it's their right on day one. So I do

3 think this order puts an emphasis on that because if

4 you come to the first meetings and what data do we

5 need we will come back in a month perhaps with that

6 data.

7 I'm not sure that's really going to work.

8 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey NEMA. So I'm

9 sort of on the fence additionally but I am also

10 confused at the same time. You seem to say that one

11 of the reasons to move forward with the working group

12 is because DOE can't legally participate with the

13 meetings now but in the letter itself it says that

14 during DOE believes that the ASRAC blah, blah, blah. 

15 We invite your representatives from these

16 groups including the Department of Energy to attend

17 the second meeting and they participate with. So is

18 there another vehicle -- it sounds like DOE did the

19 analysis, it must be suspect for a variety of reasons

20 whether there is a change in the metrics or whatever,

21 but it seems that there are people that are sort of

22 holding out a little bit, they are concerned about
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1 that analysis and it seems like the bottom line is

2 what should be done is to refine that analysis or get

3 the best data available.

4 So is there -- and I know there is an open

5 hearing process and stuff like that but is there an

6 opportunity for DOE to host a meeting and basically

7 invite in all the people that are listed here and

8 basically hash it out over a one day or two day

9 meeting to take advantage of all their knowledge and

10 capabilities and still help improve your final result

11 because even though you have a NOPR you can still

12 change that before its finalized essentially if you

13 get information that convinces you that it shouldn't

14 be changed.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer to that is

16 yes. We have other avenues either you know, public

17 meeting, confidential interviews, we have a variety

18 of avenues that we could collect data and provide an

19 analysis, offer comment. I think you know, my

20 understanding of this and I'll make your point is

21 that anyone who sees a biased analysis and then have

22 a discussion and then at national levels. That
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1 wouldn't happen in other forums other than that.

2 And clearly any data done privately

3 through the Department couldn't happen outside of the

4 negotiations for sure.

5 MR. DELASKI: I may have to leave the room

6 for that part of the discussion.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right the Department and

8 we could revise acknowledgement sure and we could do

9 technical analysis, we could run the different

10 scenarios. How do we do that if that is not an

11 uncommon practice with us, we did it in energy we

12 have done it in other places but it turns out that

13 you know, decision making, policy making that would

14 be at the table.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE to

16 clarify that DOE participating in a meeting, I did

17 personally participate in part of a meeting and the

18 next day, it was filed. And I left the room for

19 quite a bit of time when they started discussing the

20 rulemaking so just to clarify that point.

21 MR. CASKEY: Then again to simplify this

22 in my own terms. The idea is to basically get in a
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1 room together, do some analysis and the whole purpose

2 for having the working group through ASRAC would be

3 then that group could sort of hammer it out a little

4 bit more, discuss it sort of without DOE being there,

5 coming up with a possibly counter recommendation and

6 submitting that back to ASRAC.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if you form a working

8 group DOE would be at the table so you would be

9 discussing either a reaffirming proposal or an

10 alternative proposal based on whatever hashed in time

11 for ASRAC.

12 MR. DELASKI: And the proposal could be

13 one of the levels that was evaluated in the

14 preliminary for the NOPR, it is very common for DOE

15 to find a rule different from a NOPR.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

17 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from General

18 Counsel. So just essentially John this is between

19 the ability to negotiate the recommendation, the

20 actual level to come back to the Department as

21 something to indicate, as there was a second

22 discussion about analysis on data. We could have
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1 those kinds of discussions in open forum but once a

2 group is going to talk about creating a consensus

3 recommendation to the government we have to go

4 through this other legal process under the Federal

5 Advisory Committee Act and that's where the process

6 comes in. 

7 Because that's part of the advisory

8 committee, you are all here because of the Advisory

9 Committee Act and the working group is created under

10 the ASRAC which is a chartered committee under the

11 Advisory Committee Act. So that's how we deal with

12 that and you do have discussion before creating a

13 consensus recommendation.

14 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

15 MR. COHEN: The ASRAC.

16 MR. DELASKI: I think we should call a

17 vote, go ahead.

18 MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David Hungerford

19 again. I see the value in bringing DOE in to a round

20 table discussion and so I am leaning toward

21 supporting this on that basis but I was just

22 wondering if there were any kind of legal or
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1 processed complications with essentially a

2 pre-existing working group asking to be named as a

3 working group. 

4 Because that seems that we have a group

5 that has been working together, we want to open up

6 initiated rulemaking and the same people presumably

7 would want to participate and I wonder if this is a

8 legal barrier or a process problem with that.

9 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from the

10 Office of General Counsel. We wouldn't just say okay

11 that group is a new issue group we would have to go

12 through the normal process of creating the working

13 group. Now it may end up that many of the same

14 people who would be a nominated group, there would be

15 the normal process for creating a working group and

16 whether it ended up being the same people or not.

17 MR. DELASKI: It won't be 100% the same

18 but you know some might be the same but not 100% I

19 don't think.

20 MR. COHEN: But again that would be

21 determined through the process that we put out the

22 notice of the membership and people could nominate
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1 themselves or others and they would have to go

2 through the process of actually sorting out who the

3 working group is.

4 MS. MILLER: This is Deborah you don't

5 have to have 30 days because I have seen notices come

6 out where it is like next week.

7 MR. COHEN: We -- the statutory

8 requirement, we have typically done 30 because -- by

9 the time people get the notice.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: 14.

11 MR. ECKMAN: A couple of reasons I have

12 given the history that we had in the transformers. 

13 If you are going to narrow it even one level you have

14 done some good so we don't have to discuss that. If

15 there's a consensus around one level, whatever that

16 set is then that's one thing off the table that DOE

17 doesn't have to decide and we have agreement on so I

18 think there's an advantage to the extent you only

19 have a very limited amount of time and you might not

20 get to every one of the product classes and agree on

21 a level but if you can get to three or four or one

22 even its progress compared to where we would
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1 otherwise be because of the contention on whether the

2 analysis supports it.

3 So I think there's a benefit in trying

4 that, if they don't get any more we are not behind

5 them. I don't think there's a -- if you didn't get

6 to agreement it's just the parties didn't get to

7 agreement and we move on with the regular rulemaking.

8 MR. DELASKI: Okay final comments? 

9 Charlie?

10 MR. HON: I would only support this if it

11 the timeline is so critical it just bothers me to

12 know that this is such a late hour to get this going. 

13 It's putting the Department in a terrible situation

14 which how they make things happen and if it would be

15 -- I do not see how we could possibly put the

16 Department in a position where if they were past June

17 15th to get this done, have the report back to them

18 by June 15th they are not going to be able to do

19 their job.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Yes I think the harder the

21 deadline the better. If they are close to agreement

22 they will get there, if they are not all summer long
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1 is not going to make any difference.

2 MR. DELASKI: So June 15th is the proposal

3 for the date, the target date? 

4 MR. HON: That's it.

5 MR. DELASKI: So this is the hard date

6 instead of a floating date basically, probably not

7 before. It's a floating date, we have some

8 publications by June 15th would be the report back.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a hard date, hard

10 in a lot of different ways.

11 MR. DELASKI: So report back to this

12 Committee with a preference for consensus by June

13 15th, okay. John you have been calling the votes so.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you sure you don't

15 want to.

16 MR. DELASKI: Anyone opposed?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah so the motion is to

18 form a working group around the commercial air

19 conditioners and the commercial air furnaces, I have

20 mentioned that a lot here so those two rules form a

21 working group to talk about standards only for

22 certification and other items that have already been
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1 discussed on other occasions.

2 And to report a term sheet back to ASRAC

3 by June 15th. Do I see anyone voting no? Not even

4 DOE voted no, so motion passes.

5 MS. MILLER: John it's Deborah I have a

6 question. Does that mean it will be meeting June

7 15th?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well process-wise

9 typically we -- it's a topic we get everybody in a

10 room but we have phone calls to discuss it. And then

11 I guess we need to get a volunteer from ASRAC.

12 MR. DELASKI: I'll volunteer.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Andrew, any others? Okay

14 so the DOE lead you will be happy to know is me.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: One other matter -- so

16 when we put out the -- as they come out of the

17 packages, ASRAC does approve those, we will be asking

18 you for a private telecom sometime in the near future

19 to get these going to approve the working group, or

20 to choose the working group members and discuss them. 

21 We will catch up with that because you know to the

22 extent we do want some of these moving quicker, a lot
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1 of that will depend on finding a time in our slot to

2 get the actual numbers chosen and then for DOE's

3 approval.

4 MS. MILLER: The sooner you can get that

5 date to us, probably it will be great.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right so it all depends on

7 federal register notices, a number of -- it will be

8 two weeks, the number of applicants to sift through,

9 we turn those around pretty quickly and I think the

10 prioritized list will read that well.

11 So the next general item. 

12 MR. WINNINGHAM: John this is a process

13 question. Dave Winningham from Allied Air, the first

14 rule says that the comment period is still open that

15 stays open, comments are filed?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

17 MR. DELASKI: So we are a little bit

18 behind in our agenda, we have about an hour left

19 until we said we would adjourn and we want to leave

20 some time for additional topics and public comment. 

21 I don't know is 1:00 a hard stop for us?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
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1 MR. DELASKI: Yes, hard stop, some of us

2 should probably try to adhere to that so we are going

3 to have to make up some time since we are running an

4 hour behind schedule. But next up on the agenda is

5 for DOE a discussion of regulatory review activities.

6 MR. COHEN: And this is Dan Cohen I will

7 make up time. I want to pass out papers as we are

8 passing this around, when I found out this morning

9 that there was going to be a special guest in the

10 building and the 8th floor towers, where I thought we

11 were in the 8th floor towers, I thought he was coming

12 to this meeting.

13 It didn't work out that way but if he knew

14 that we were talking about this he might so if this

15 comes up, this is the Presidential initiative that

16 really started back in 2011 when it was -- and just

17 this week they announced a reinvigoration over a

18 phase 2 I guess the idea of doing is the idea is that

19 we should all be, as you mentioned, the regulation is

20 to determine you know what may be outdated or should

21 go away, what needs to be revised and what new

22 regulations need to be and what is the issue.
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1 So what I just sent around to you is a

2 blog from -- sort of describing this step two, phase

3 two of this issue as well as the Department's

4 retrospective review that was posted on Tuesday as

5 well and then the screen shot of the page that we

6 have already created and we have been operating since

7 this initiative started in 2011.

8 And what you will see there is that they

9 posted out our various reports and plans and

10 activities and we have also done a series of requests

11 for information to seek from the public of nominees

12 or ideas of topics what we should be looking at to

13 address.

14 And for the second round or for round two

15 this phase two of this retrospective review we were

16 all asked to think about public engagement and we

17 said we're fine, that we have been doing public

18 engagement because we had these different, probably

19 the next many of you in this room have participated

20 by sending comments in that we have taken into

21 account in our plans and our activities.

22 But the following will create new and
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1 different and we came up with the idea that that was

2 one that no one else would come up with. And we

3 would like to do something we have this committee

4 that exists to advise us and make recommendations to

5 us with the appliance standard code, so why not ask

6 you to think about this.

7 Think about ways we can engage with the

8 public in fact go out and do something with the

9 public that you can then contemplate as activities

10 for you to take here and give recommendations and

11 maybe use those recommendations as we go through this

12 round two of the initiative process.

13 I can talk more about this, you can think

14 about it and we can have a follow up discussion about

15 it but essentially as we would like to talk ASRAC to

16 in addition to the work that we are doing to do work

17 to come up with ideas, thoughts and ways to interact

18 with the public and then make recommendations back to

19 us, that's a half an hour of discussion unless you

20 want to talk more about it.

21 MR. DELASKI: So maybe the thing for us to

22 do, this is Andrew again, is to take on board what
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1 you have shared with us today and you know think

2 about how we as a committee could contribute to this

3 and then we can have a full discussion perhaps at our

4 next meeting and the scope here is around the

5 agency's regulatory activities for standards because

6 that is what this committee is about.

7 MR. COHEN: That's correct and you will

8 notice as you look at this plan you will notice there

9 are other aspects of the department where that is not

10 the only regulatory activity of the program of the

11 Department but it is going to look at the --

12 MR. DELASKI: Nuclear savings.

13 MR. COHEN: Well the first one you will

14 notice is about exports of nuclear technology and we

15 all think you really need to go into that topic. 

16 MR. DELASKI: All right any other

17 questions for Dan.

18 MR. CASKEY: You probably said it but I

19 missed it so what is the schedule that you want some

20 ideas to act on?

21 MR. COHEN: We want you can talk about

22 that, obviously this initiative is going on, the
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1 whole idea is to keep it as an ongoing thought not to

2 have it be and you will see that in the Shelanski

3 blog that it is not six months and then we forget

4 about this, it is an ongoing process so this is the

5 first time I am bringing this to you now so you need

6 to think about it and then do some activities as

7 determined by you all.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so what I think

9 Andrew suggested was at the next meeting we will put

10 it on the agenda for six months or whatever,

11 hopefully by that time you will have had a change to

12 share some of your ideas.

13 MR. DELASKI: Other questions on this

14 topic? The next topic on the agenda is standards

15 under development and other relevant issues. So at

16 times we have used this agenda block to talk about

17 other items, other products that might be appropriate

18 from down the pike for a negotiated rulemaking. 

19 We have also used this block of time

20 sometimes to discuss cross cutting issues and I guess

21 I would want to use this time now to raise other

22 issues. I have an issue that I hope to raise but I
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1 also want to give others a chance to do so, so as not

2 to monopolize the time, but we can go to other topics

3 you want to raise, Tom?

4 MR. ECKMAN: For falling on to the

5 regulatory burden and process one of the issues that

6 I have raised before and it's related to several that

7 have been raised is getting out in front of the test

8 procedures with collecting the data so we have those

9 done before we start rulemakings and I think that's a

10 cross cutting question with respect to all rules and

11 to the extent that there's a way to get those

12 schedule and the data collection necessary to get to

13 the fundamental information necessary to move forward

14 with the test procedure and inclusive of the

15 fundamental input to the economic analysis which is

16 the duty cycle, how much energy would this thing use

17 and how often?

18 It seems to me that regardless of

19 rulemaking we tend to run those now in parallel to

20 the standards and process and that creates a burden

21 both on manufacturers and on advocates and on anybody

22 else participating because we don't know what the
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1 answer of the test procedure is before we try and

2 figure out what the levels are and that just doesn't

3 cycle right with me so to the extent that this

4 committee or DOE can move forward to address that as

5 part of this initiative it seems to me we have got in

6 my mind a high priority task to work on.

7 MR. DELASKI: Jen?

8 MS. CLEARY: I wholeheartedly agree with

9 everything you have said and I think it should be a

10 priority because it's hamstringing us on renewables

11 and I think it's creating some questionable analysis.

12 MR. DELASKI: Deborah?

13 MS. MILLER: Deborah Miller, this was

14 something we had talked about how many years ago

15 fifteen? It has always been a problem and I guess

16 the issue is you and I have with DOE is that it or

17 are there other issues that seem to come up. What do

18 you define as really the majority of issues that

19 prevent this from happening?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think there's a few,

21 we haven't been necessarily a resource constraint

22 much in the last couple of years. The good news is
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1 that may change very soon you never know but we did

2 have issues with survey type work frankly.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right I mean to follow on

4 this, this is Ashley. One of the requirements if we

5 send out, if we would just try to get questionnaires

6 out to get responses from the field from more people

7 it triggers its own type of review process for us. 

8 And I think we can all appreciate what comes along

9 with that and so that's one of the hurdles DOE has

10 for initiating itself.

11 Now that being said certainly Tom I can

12 give you my test procedure schedules, I can even give

13 you the areas where I think that data would help the

14 most. Looking five years out and DOE wouldn't be

15 initiating a survey as well but could work with

16 people to potentially highlight areas where two big

17 efforts by outside parties would be most helpful and

18 the timeframe for which they would be most helpful.

19 DOE initiating a survey itself though

20 brings in a whole lot of process with it and I'm not

21 sure anyone is seeking.

22 MR. ECKMAN: No, I'm not pushing for that
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1 I'm pushing for the later but we have got something

2 in the headlights that says by such and such a date

3 we are going to start revising this test procedure. 

4 We know backing up from that we need two years' worth

5 of data collection or six months for the data

6 collection to answer these following questions and

7 letting the industry and the advocates know what

8 these areas are so we can march our forces together

9 and figure out how to address that really gives us

10 some idea of what your lead times are and that would

11 really benefit us to know what's an issue and what

12 particularly if you identify the issues, what you

13 think our data is not a very good foundation of

14 information.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Personally I think I could

16 do that in a day. 

17 MR. ECKMAN: I'll look for it in an email

18 Monday.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: She didn't say which day.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: For a lot of people for a

21 variety of reasons. You know that's not an issue, we

22 have our schedules and I know what comments you would
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1 want and I know the areas where we could benefit from

2 having inventories data so I don't think that's too

3 hard to ask.

4 MR. DELASKI: What strikes me and this is

5 one topic and there are a few others that have come

6 up in our prior meetings. I went through the NODES

7 that Jeremy circulated beforehand which I appreciate

8 from all of our prior meetings. Another topic came

9 up in our prior meetings and what strikes me is that

10 we as the parent committee could take on some of

11 these tasks more directly as the ASRAC committee,

12 they are cross-cutting topics.

13 So so far our work has been to approve

14 working groups and then to come back and approve

15 their product and that's been okay that's actually

16 worked pretty well, we have approved four working

17 groups as a Committee and each one of those we have

18 selected pretty well, each one has reached a

19 consensus which has then been the basis for a

20 proposed rule so we have a pretty good track record.

21 We have tabled a couple of topics that

22 came before us, one was on C&I labeling early on and
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1 we tabled it. One came back in December, the one on

2 characterization of equipment and was tabled. So we

3 have also set aside a couple of things but we have

4 also had these sort of open discussions on these

5 kinds of topics like best method development and

6 doing it in a kind of way that we have not really

7 wrestled with as a committee.

8 So it strikes me that these are things

9 that we don't want to create working groups for this

10 one, but rather we as a parent committee given that

11 we have got a bunch of experts here who have brought

12 representation from different industries and from the

13 advocacy world, from state government, from the

14 utility sector in Tom's case that are -- can help to

15 address some of these issues.

16 As I went back through the notes if you go

17 back to the working group topic history that was

18 circulated, it has also given us I think as a handout

19 here today, if you go to the very first item there,

20 common expectations of ASRAC there were five items

21 identified as being our common expectations. 

22 Developed creative cost solutions and energy savings
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1 and opportunities.

2 Number two create an understanding of how

3 standards affect other agencies. Validate modeling,

4 streamline rulemaking efforts and be sure to focus on

5 developing outcomes that DOE can actually utilize to

6 promote U.S. manufacturing while negotiating a key

7 focus of the committee might be able to help.

8 So this is pretty broad but these rules

9 are sort of broader chargers and I think that we

10 really haven't -- we've addressed it through some

11 specific negotiations but we haven't addressed these

12 broad cross-cutting concerns and what I would like us

13 to do is to think more about it and to challenge

14 ourselves to how can we play our role as an advisory

15 committee to provide some advice on some of these

16 topics.

17 Some of the items as I went back through

18 the notes on the plane ride down today other topics

19 that had come up in some of our previous discussions

20 included the timing of DOE reviews, the DOE and

21 historically was resource challenges as we just

22 referenced and as a result fell behind on their
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1 schedule but since 2007 there's been a tremendous

2 effort to catch up and the agency has caught up on

3 their legal deadlines and the state of rest of their

4 legal commitments and to the point today where they

5 are actually doing rules that are in their authority

6 but not in the requirement which you think of as

7 deficiency proponents as a good thing. 

8 There are limits on DOE's timing so within

9 their legal constraints how do they stage things, how

10 do they time things and this discussion is coming up

11 I think for various products and I think the timing,

12 the fact of the expectations in timing, Diane made a

13 point earlier as well, it strikes me as a topic that

14 has come up a couple of times in our ASRAC

15 discussions that might merit some focus by this

16 committee.

17 Another one that has come up has been

18 systems. John and I volunteered to come up with

19 something on the systems and we didn't make any

20 progress, we didn't even talk. So it strikes me as

21 something that we should take on as a committee DOE

22 has made some progress on thinking about how can they
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1 develop standards, pump standards as an example that

2 attempt to tackle it and extended product.

3 It's not a system per se but it is a step

4 in that direction so can we as a committee think

5 further about how we capture, how do we want to own

6 one, John's bad idea, it was more than just John's

7 bad idea obviously a big opportunity. 

8 Another topic that has come up repeatedly

9 has been the issue of field energy consumption versus

10 you know the testing consumption and back to this

11 issue of look back are we doing anything to go back

12 and validate what actually happened? Did we actually

13 get the savings that we thought we were going to get

14 and do the field -- how do the field numbers match up

15 with what we are expecting and are we doing enough

16 work to gather data on field energy consumption and

17 actual performance?

18 There are others, I have others on the

19 list, others let me go back to the notes here that

20 are cross-cutting so it strikes me that we what I

21 want to ask the committee is there a will to try to

22 identify some of these cross-cutting issues that we
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1 might be able to work on collectively and ultimately

2 make some recommendations and offer some advice as to

3 the agency on how to tackle some of these topics. So

4 I would like reaction to that as a general concept

5 and also what else would you put on the list for

6 things for us to work on?

7 MS. KLINE: Yeah, I think your list is

8 very good and I guess I would just add one and maybe

9 build off maybe one of the ones we heard a little bit

10 earlier. I love the idea of long term calendar I

11 think that has a lot of potential and you know the

12 test procedures would be one facet of it because you

13 could envision, you know, just having you know, a

14 long term map of each product category that happened

15 to be ready with their you know, negotiated solution

16 that they needed one by x date right. 

17 But also just in terms of the standard

18 levels. I think that to the extent that we can allow

19 at the trade association level or at the category

20 level kind of thinking around classes of products and

21 maybe even you know, negotiated solutions around you

22 know, major appliances as a whole over the next five
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1 years for instance, or lighting products as a whole

2 over the next you know to the extent you can group

3 things and think about them in categories.

4 I think there might be a lot of

5 efficiencies there from the person's perspective,

6 from manufacturer's perspectives, because there could

7 be a lot of certainty, there could also be the

8 ability to make trade-offs among products that you

9 would not otherwise get and I think you know there

10 might just be a lot of you know a lot of ability to

11 cut down of a lot of the regulatory burden between

12 here and there if we were able to take a longer term

13 view and look at that as something that we could

14 really think about more in terms of a package

15 perspective and how do you get ready now for the next

16 five or eight years.

17 So I would just encourage us to you know

18 take a look at a calendar and do some thinking about

19 you know are there opportunities to be more or just

20 efficient at how we approach this at day 1. 

21 MR. DELASKI: Diane?

22 MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs from
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1 Rheem. Yes I would be very excited if we did more. 

2 I have been calling in to the ASREC meetings and it

3 seems like most of the activity is in the working

4 groups and but I think there is a lot of work to do

5 on this level. One thing that has really confused me

6 is the interaction with the ASHRAE, I mean I have

7 been on the ASHRAE 103, God 2000 I think so 15 years

8 and we just had a NOPR and next week we are talking

9 about furnaces and there is contractors from DOE on

10 the ASHRAE 103 and they are part of those discussions

11 but then when the NOPR comes out they take a few you

12 know, some sections, some other sections and it's

13 hard at work to explain to people that they actually

14 think that we are supposed to -- we are testing the

15 ASHRAE 103 and I keep telling them it is the federal

16 register that is important.

17 Actually so this whole interaction with

18 other organizations and how things are adopted and

19 it's confusing to you know we are trying to follow

20 all the rules and I just know from talking to other

21 manufacturers that there's different interpretations

22 and actually the furnace rule is kind of crazy
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1 because there is like thirty pieces of data and 100

2 pages of calculations and right now we are using a

3 program that was developed for it by it and I don't

4 know that anyone is developing the new program so we

5 are all going to rewrite our own programs in four

6 tran and I don't know how it will end up.

7 So just kind of on the practical view how

8 many factors comply with these regulations and how do

9 we do it so it is a level playing field, thank you.

10 MR. DELASKI: Okay.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just a follow-up, I

12 actually somewhat completely agree with you Diane but

13 for different reasons. You know we struggle here

14 when we get, when we are triggered to do test

15 procedures and impact review and industry standards

16 and the intention was never necessarily to modify

17 language but typically we modify a language because

18 we find issues while testing.

19 We have done our own testing or you guys

20 come to us with questions so I don't know how to

21 solve that if we possibly do but a lot of

22 modifications remain aren't just because we want to
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1 it's because we have to, we need to. Or and there

2 are things I have seen at ASHRA or other places and

3 also they didn't get adopted for whatever reason but

4 the Department has to do certain things a certain

5 way.

6 So obviously I am all ears as far as a

7 better process or a better way to do that but you are

8 going to see us make some changes for a variety of

9 different reasons and we do test actively. My inbox

10 alone probably gets 15 plus questions a day, a lot

11 and so people don't think about when they are writing

12 test procedures but they do think about them when

13 they start using them.

14 MS. JACOBS: I completely agree with you

15 Ashley and I just put myself you know in your

16 position and what would I do and you know I can't

17 really complain with anything that you are doing it's

18 just, it's just a mess and we are actually testing

19 today it's to a standard that was written in 1993 --

20 one came out in 2007 which is pretty long ago and it

21 wasn't adopted and I mean it's just confusing and

22 hard to -- hard to follow.
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1 It's hard to do a good job for anyone who

2 is involved.

3 MR. COHEN: So this is Dan Cohen and I

4 just have two things on that one. First I would say

5 that is not an issue that is really limited just to

6 ASHRAE. That comes up in fact, we ended up in the

7 Fourth Circuit with NEPA actually on which version of

8 a particular test procedure that specified in the

9 statute is the required version to use we ended up in

10 court on it so it comes up fairly regularly.

11 The other thing that I would say is there

12 is a distinction there between the test procedure and

13 the standard right because the standard is that whole

14 as I mentioned earlier, the ASHRAE provision of APCA

15 with respect to the standards may be the most complex

16 provision in the statute of complex provisions.

17 And is a statute only and we argue about

18 it all the time, it is intentionable.

19 MS. JACOBS: So you are talking about 90.1

20 right?

21 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

22 MS. JACOBS: Okay.
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1 MR. COHEN: Correct, and that's the other

2 thing we don't actually vote in ASHRAE right so

3 people are there but the DOE folks are in the room,

4 we don't vote and we partly don't vote because ASHRAE

5 and it's not only just the appliance standards, it's

6 also on the building codes side, because under the

7 building code provisions, there's a different status. 

8 We actually have an obligation to make a

9 determination about the energy efficiency upgrade for

10 a particular amendment to 90.1 or ICC, and it states

11 after that and reacts to so we deliberately don't

12 want that, we have a statutory obligation to act

13 after ASHRAE per the manual.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: ICC.

15 MR. AMARANE: ASHRAE and the DOE has ruled

16 with ruling on all the proposals that comes out of

17 the ASHRAE all the levels.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not the levels.

19 MR. AMARANE: Not the levels, I can hope

20 that you are correct but I think I have seen those --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are correct.

22 MR. DELASKI: John?
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure going back to your

2 original question I think the list of topics that you

3 had I think is a great list, it's a good starting

4 point. I would personally be happy to do whatever I

5 could to move any of those topics forward. I am

6 particularly interested with the system they are in.

7 And the reason for that just is you know

8 what I see from the manufacturing side of this with

9 transformers as well as lamps and some other issues

10 it seems like we are getting near the top of sort of

11 the bang for the buck in terms of going to that next

12 percentage efficiency improvement it's just a huge

13 amount of money to improve it beyond where it is and

14 that's one of those things that came up recently

15 related to EPA and looking at an Energy Star Program

16 related to distribution transformers and it's hard to

17 develop a program without going beyond what's going

18 to be the law in 2016 and I sort of see that first

19 hand and that leads to sort of my other issue.

20 And that really deals with I don't know

21 how to describe it -- like cash for clunkers, but the

22 idea is that there is a lot of poor efficient
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1 products out there and as we increase the efficiency

2 regulation then thereby the cost for some of these

3 products is sort of indirectly you are sort of

4 rewarding young owner and operator of that old device

5 whether it is a motor or transformer or whatever, you

6 are almost sort of rewarding them to rebuild it or

7 repair it or try and stretch it out to that "nth"

8 year as opposed to investing in something new today

9 because the capital cost of that new high efficient

10 thing is so much higher than an older device.

11 Just to investigate that seems there is

12 another way around that, to see if there is another

13 way we can incentivize people to get rid of that you

14 know second refrigerator in the garage or that less

15 efficient for a utility to go to a less efficient

16 transformer than they might otherwise do because just

17 looking at the simple cost effectiveness we have got

18 a pretty high priced new transformer you know and

19 when you are looking now to rebuild the old one or

20 something like that it makes that rebuild option a

21 little bit more cost effective.

22 Just so if there is a way I don't know if
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1 it is subsidies or whatever it is but at least to

2 investigate that issue of how do we get old really

3 poor inefficient products sort of out of people's

4 garages and out of people's homes and out of

5 businesses and things like that and replace it with

6 hopefully new higher efficiencies before it's

7 absolutely the thing has died and we have just got to

8 replace it.

9 And you know another point that is

10 spinning off of that, I don't know how many people

11 here think about the internet fittings and how

12 everything is connected and stuff going forward and

13 that is something that I certainly think about a lot

14 and unfortunately I didn't absolutely need to but I

15 went ahead and replaced my air conditioner and heater

16 recently and got a WIFI compatible thermostat so now

17 I can talk to my people in the cooling system while I

18 am on the road which is a big advantage so if I leave

19 the house and forget to turn it down, I can turn it

20 down remotely and you know some people think that

21 simple investment is a lot more value for the car

22 than if I go on from a 19 CEER or a 20 CEER relative
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1 to that air conditioner just trying to get it off --

2 trying to turn it off you know to minimize the duty

3 cycle whenever I can, particularly when I'm not in

4 the room anymore.

5 MS. MILLER: Andrew this is Deborah

6 Miller. I just want to and in fact I think these are

7 all great discussions and I think your list is very,

8 very good and I'm trying to come up with things once

9 we think about it but from a process standpoint I

10 would encourage us to prioritize and set deadlines,

11 just like we are doing for these negotiated groups.

12 Because as you said, you know you didn't

13 get together because there was no deadline, so that

14 is what I would suggest and prioritization is key

15 because people you know this is people's sort of

16 second job so we need to know what the priorities are

17 and what the timeframe is.

18 MR. DELASKI: Charlie?

19 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Another

20 thing that we really need to consider that was our

21 company brought to the White House a few months ago

22 is the fact that we are getting more and more
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1 interagency issues developed because in today's world

2 in refrigeration and air conditioning and all the EPA

3 SNAP program is becoming more and more prevalent in

4 energy efficiency.

5 They are getting to slightly flammable

6 refrigerants, fully flammable refrigerants, all of

7 which get to the energy efficiency of a product and

8 that's a big issue right now as far as the analysis

9 that went on for the 2017 rulemaking is the

10 efficiency advantages of some of the new

11 refrigerants.

12 The problem is that we still have now put

13 cross governmental communication and discussions as

14 far as how do we get these products into market

15 faster because there are lots of fed, state and local

16 building codes which prohibit them even though the

17 federal government says okay you can build these and

18 they are really efficient.

19 Marketing the product into local code is a

20 problem and the energy -- and the SNAP group has a

21 committee working right now that is looking at how to

22 accelerate the secondary legal issues of these
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1 products because they have a major impact on the DOE. 

2 And how do we cross these governmental lines to make

3 them work faster?

4 MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs I would

5 add Energy Star programs from the EPA and the federal

6 trade FTC with the energy buy labels.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: You would be surprised at

8 how often we talked to all of those people. I can

9 show you email from SNAP yesterday.

10 MR. DELASKI: Yeah and that kind of raises

11 the question for me or raises a point for me which is

12 that so if we are going to play our advisory role we

13 need to understand what is to apply, right. What's

14 the baseline right? And I think we don't fully

15 understand what the baseline is or we don't know we

16 went to SNAP yesterday. So that might be, coming out

17 of this meeting are there some things that we want to

18 ask of the program that they can report -- provide

19 this information back at the next meeting so that we

20 then can think about back to Deborah's point about

21 the prioritization.

22 Okay well actually they are doing fine on
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1 this SNAP coordination despite what they thought,

2 they are actually coordinating and we don't even

3 touch that one but maybe on this test method

4 sequencing thing that's something where Ashley could

5 give us the schedule and we can provide some

6 feedback.

7 And the other question on test methods

8 from Diane's point is a need for a better

9 understanding on this committee's part, what is the

10 process that you do to make those changes. We aren't

11 going to today but if we had that in a form that you

12 know written form that we could share --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

14 MR. DELASKI: If we had a written form

15 that might be a way for us to begin to think about

16 okay so how could we provide you our collective

17 feedback and advice on how it could be improved.

18 MS. JACOBS: So this is Diane and you know

19 I might be coming across as very confused but the

20 other thing is this back sliding, when that comes

21 out, back sliding so you are changing your metric. 

22 How do you know if you are back sliding or not?
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1 MS. MILLER: It's a statutory issue.

2 MR. DELASKI: We're not.

3 MS. JACOBS: I didn't say anything.

4 MR. DELASKI: It is tested for and the

5 agency lost so.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We had for individual

7 products so we are obsessing when we change test

8 procedures but this does get to a point where you

9 know when industry changes a test procedure out of

10 state sometimes when we change test procedures we

11 have to sync up with standards for a variety of

12 reasons and so there are reasons that our compliance

13 data may be a little different or lack behind the

14 output the industry has.

15 We talk about the considerations that are

16 in the additional rules, but sure I can write up a

17 like process of things we think about first.

18 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

19 MR. DELASKI: In the schedule that Tom

20 mentioned earlier -- what would that include, what do

21 you --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what I hear him ask for
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1 is actually what test procedures is DOE going to do

2 over the next say five years and of those test

3 procedures which ones do you really think consumer

4 usage data -- which one could really benefit from

5 consumer usage data?

6 Clearly most if not all could probably

7 benefit for some but if I were to prioritize on my

8 own what would those be, what DOE would it be and

9 then you guys can have a discussion to agree or

10 disagree with me.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Yes I think identifying is it

12 uses or is it some other input in the equation that

13 you use, whatever it is, is it moving cycle or some

14 other counts per cycle, how many make it to the

15 clothes dryer from the clothes washer, those are

16 inputs to a calculation downstream and we have sparse

17 information on fairly large input.

18 MS. KLINE: And if I might add to that, I

19 don't know if it would be too much of a burden but to

20 also include the standards piece there too because I

21 think you know that was where I was trying to go with

22 being able to look at that holistically over a longer
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1 view I think that would be a benefit.

2 MR. DELASKI: So the calendar as it is

3 today -- again you guys can see the schedule that is

4 in the repertory agenda that goes back a couple of

5 years right.

6 MS. MILLER: Yeah but that changes.

7 MR. DELASKI: Right so is there another

8 schedule that can be shared? I mean obviously

9 there's schedules -- demand a certain schedule.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what you are going

11 to see. A regulatory schedule is the statutory

12 schedule. What you are going to see is it is going

13 to go a little bit further out years wise. The

14 regulatory does have weekends off more or less and

15 what you are going to see is that we might be taking

16 off the next year or two as well.

17 MR. DELASKI: Okay.

18 MR. COHEN: And the various input

19 obviously we will update that as we go through our

20 schedule. The dates that are in the agenda are our

21 working dates. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm guess you don't
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1 care so much about you know actual NOPR dates and

2 final rule dates unless I give you for ones that are

3 ongoing, this is the current, this is the end date

4 versus ones that are going to start, this is the

5 start date, this is the end date because clearly if

6 we are all talking about data and getting in that

7 data you are going to try to accrue it around the

8 start date or around the state date of that rule.

9 MR. ECKMAN: My whole purpose in this is

10 not to have to sit around and wait while looking for

11 information.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: What we have been trying

13 to do is we have been trying to do RFI's like really,

14 really early and kick off test procedures and

15 standards rulemakings where particularly in test

16 procedures I think it would be great to kick them all

17 off earlier than later than we have in the past with

18 a bunch of these questions, where others could see

19 what we already thinking on the sticky points.

20 MR. DELASKI: Yes.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Giving the RFI six months out

22 before you start something when it takes two years to
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1 collect the data.

2 MR. DELASKI: Well part of and we just saw

3 an RFI come out this week on pool heaters and direct

4 heating equipment so this is one where the agency is

5 just beginning really to implement the six year look

6 back requirement. This is an act that is part of

7 ESSA, every standard every six years so now we are

8 starting to see this because this was completed in

9 2010.

10 So we should expect that schedule what

11 Kelly is asking for go ahead and show it to me so

12 that I know what you are thinking, that way I don't

13 have to put it together myself but that is what we

14 should be expecting is that kind of schedule.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then any rules, off

16 the cuff, any rules that we finalized in 2010 and

17 2011 you are going to see hit the six year look back

18 this year or next year roughly until we have a chance

19 to put it together but I'm guessing you are going to

20 be fairly interested in that group.

21 MS. KLINE: I think it sometimes it just

22 helps to see them one place to focus the mind because
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1 I think you know it's easy to focus on what's

2 immediately in front of you.

3 MR. CASKEY: Right.

4 MR. DELASKI: That brings me to another

5 topic question related, like what John was saying

6 about you know we hear this theme of getting to the

7 end of the rope right, and diminishing returns. This

8 was discussed during the process rule that Deborah

9 was involved in so many years ago.

10 You know what is significant I mean so the

11 agency was given the definition of significant by

12 NRDC, and what is it Dan, non-trivial?

13 MR. COHEN: Non-trivial.

14 MS. MILLER: That's real help.

15 MR. DELASKI: What happened back in the

16 90's twenty years ago now was thinking about what

17 this was the process that Deborah managed I think

18 which was this prioritization process. Do what the

19 biggest bang for the buck is, well that led them to a

20 lawsuit and CE Bodnan.

21 MS. MILLER: You know all the names.

22 MR. DELASKI: That said you got to do what
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1 you got to do, you have got to do what the law says

2 which is to issue a final rule. You can't just say

3 we are not going to do that one because some people

4 said it wasn't that important, but the law said you

5 have to do it so it strikes me that there's this

6 whole issue around how you get the biggest bang for

7 the buck and at the same time comply with the legal

8 obligations.

9 We all would like I think around this

10 table to see the agency work on the rulemakings are

11 going to deliver the greatest cost effective energy

12 savings and spend less time than the ones that don't

13 do much right. But at the same time we all want them

14 to -- we have to comply with the law so it strikes me

15 that the whole topic there for us to as that advisory

16 committee at a high level to wrap our arms around,

17 how do we help the agency to wrestle with this

18 challenge which I think is going to become more

19 acute.

20 As you go back at these rules, again, you

21 know to John's point if a transformer is not 99.5%

22 efficient then where are you going to go so you
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1 wrestle with that, that strikes me as a topic for --

2 a rich topic for us to discuss.

3 MS. MILLER: Unless there are new

4 technologies that work, sorry Deborah Miller.

5 MR. DELASKI: Thoughts on that one?

6 MS. MILLER: So how do we begin?

7 MR. DELASKI: Well we could ask, again I

8 don't want to keep throwing everything back to the

9 agency but I think a way to begin is to understand

10 how do they interpret, you just heard it you know

11 what it is and how to manage that discussion with

12 these folks on how they do it today. 

13 MS. MILLER: Ashley and John what occurs

14 to me and I was just mentioning it to David is I

15 don't know how frequently this group meets. Like you

16 were saying Ashley you could call, you could have a

17 discussion on the phone, it is just never as fruitful

18 on the phone, people are triple tasking you know,

19 looking at their mail et cetera.

20 I don't know how many times you have met

21 in the past year, I know it is a big burden when we

22 meet but if the items are really high on your
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1 priority list as well, it may mean that we need to

2 meet face to face if possible more than what two

3 times a year, is that how you met, two, three, four?

4 MR. DELASKI: This is our second face to

5 face.

6 MS. MILLER: Face to face.

7 MR. DELASKI: So we have not been meeting

8 twice a year no, we have been meeting by phone.

9 MS. MILLER: By phone, yeah. You know and

10 it may not have to be that many but I just think you

11 get so much more done.

12 MR. DELASKI: And the reason I think we

13 haven't met face to face is we haven't been taking on

14 these tasks of trying to play our advisory role, it's

15 simply doing the telecast of creating and improving

16 working groups and that can be done in that way.

17 MR. CASKEY: So this is John, so if we are

18 going to agree to take on some of those tasks I don't

19 know if it will be like subsets like five people

20 working on this topic A, five people working on topic

21 B, but maybe one way to improve things would be to

22 get like an annual schedule and maybe a whole list to
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1 prove that these words came out of his mouth but how

2 to schedule maybe every quarter or something like

3 that, you know ahead of time and then you try to plan

4 around it, maybe the attendance would improve a

5 little bit by doing that or at least maybe two face

6 to face or two teleconferences so if we get it on the

7 schedule now as opposed to doing it, just reacting

8 once we have the creation of the potential work group

9 or something like that.

10 MR. DELASKI: That makes sense to me,

11 schedule them out for the year, you know get them on

12 the calendar, people can organize around them as

13 opposed to trying to squeeze it in at the end and

14 hopefully we will get a quorum.

15 MS. MILLER: So what have we established

16 when are we going to prioritize and talk about

17 positions because I think once we prioritize them we

18 will understand that number one we have probably

19 looked at these issues a million times, it's always a

20 different thing at a different time.

21 I was laughing about refrigerators because

22 that was one of my projects and of course AHAM has
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1 had a recycling program for those second

2 refrigerators and I possibly see them in people's

3 garages so what are we going to talk about, which are

4 the ones that we really should spend our time on? I

5 would rather take fewer and have results that's going

6 to be effective and that DOE feels is good than do

7 you know a list of ten and there's a lot of wasted

8 time.

9 MR. DELASKI: So it strikes me that we

10 have asked for some things from the agency, we are

11 going to take this concept on board and these ideas

12 on board and think about them and come back and meet

13 I would submit sometime in the spring face to face

14 and then use that meeting to prioritize where we want

15 to work and dedicate some of our time and effort to

16 tackling some of these topics.

17 MS. MILLER: And this is a legal question

18 I probably shouldn't ask. Can the advisory committee

19 ever have private meetings and the only reason why I

20 ask it is that we always involve John and Ashley, we

21 need their feedback, but I would assume one of the

22 issues always is your schedules, you are always
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1 pressed against people.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Believe it or not I'm

3 usually helpful on the issue of us getting together

4 per se it's not necessarily time.

5 MR.COHEN: So this is a chartered

6 committee so if you are going to have a meeting it

7 actually has to be recorded as a meeting but that

8 doesn't mean you can't all be emailing each other

9 individually sort of just communicating in

10 preparation for it.

11 MS. MILLER: So we could have a conference

12 call if we wanted to?

13 MR. COHEN: Not without notice.

14 MS. MILLER: Notice.

15 MR. DELASKI: Yeah we just can't call it a

16 meeting of the committee. We can't go have lunch

17 together.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could have a discussion

19 of business kind of leading up to prepare for a

20 public meeting.

21 MR. CASKEY: Never use the word closed we

22 learned.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: No never.

2 MR. COHEN: You can email each other, you

3 could talk to each other that is perfectly fine, it's

4 not a meeting it's a conversation.

5 MR. CASKEY: So this is John Caskey. Can

6 I do a sort of a friendly amendment to yours or

7 amendment? One option to move forward would really

8 be you asked what we could ask DOE to do so I mean

9 looking at the -- I mean you know we have some ideas,

10 I have seen you wrote them down from today, we have

11 these notes for several meetings over the last couple

12 of years or so, but it seems like this could really

13 be consolidated I mean in each of the meetings we

14 have brought out sort of the same topic, so I guess

15 my proposal would be that we ask DOE to take a look

16 at this and take a look into your list from today and

17 maybe come up with a narrowed down list, not to

18 eliminate anything but to see where you can

19 consolidate things into a more general topic or

20 question and come up with whatever that is, 10 or 15

21 topics and then maybe for us electronically to start

22 to figure out what the priorities would be and then
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1 from there maybe before we have our next meeting we

2 would be able to say that from this analysis we can

3 start working on it.

4 MR. DELASKI: That's a great idea.

5 MR. CASKEY: And then if you want to

6 prepare for that meeting to discuss them or you know

7 develop a scope and things like that before hand.

8 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary I agree

9 with that. I think it would also be nice if we could

10 have some short period of time where we could all

11 submit further ideas because I have got some brewing

12 that I am not ready to share today but would like to

13 talk to a couple of you about before sharing with the

14 group so if we could have a little time that would be

15 good.

16 MS. MILLER: So when are we going to this

17 is Deborah, so when are we going to have this

18 whatever, this call or email to make sure this list

19 is done. Andrew or DOE is going to put together,

20 DOE? We can volunteer people that are here right?

21 MS. CLEARY: Right.

22 MR. DELASKI: I'll tackle the task of
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1 taking the first cut and then I'll share it with

2 folks to check it to enhance it.

3 MS. CLEARY: Great.

4 MR. DELASKI: According to the agency.

5 MS. MILLER: And your deadline is, this is

6 Deborah.

7 MR. DELASKI: Oh you are tough.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Worse than me.

9 MS. MILLER: We just talked about

10 deadlines, otherwise things just sit.

11 MR. DELASKI: I'll share it within two

12 weeks, okay.

13 MS. MILLER: That's why I love the

14 processing program.

15 MR. COHEN: 2 weeks.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: If we did want to meet

17 again in the spring so how -- because

18 MR. HUNGERFORD: Technically that's the

19 22nd of June.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm just wondering because

21 I have availability of the room and we can discuss

22 this now really quick if you want to do that.
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1 MS. MILLER: I understand, I would really

2 like also to jam in my schedule. I understand you

3 can't come to a lot of meetings because of the

4 schedule but if you could attend a few that would be

5 great. I'm not saying to cut everything off but to

6 see if we could run these dates by John too and try

7 to get on his schedule.

8 MR. DELASKI: So I would look maybe toward

9 the last week of April.

10 MS. MILLER: Well when do you have the

11 rooms available?

12 MR. CYMBALSKI: April 30th that's pretty

13 late in the month if you would like that date.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: For those of you

15 interested, the parts public meeting is the 29th so

16 for those attending you will already be here for

17 that.

18 MR. CYMBALSKI: Thursday, April 30th we

19 just put a hold on that if that makes sense.

20 MR. DELASKI: Can anybody not make that

21 day?

22 MR. CYMBALSKI: The 30th.
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1 MS. MILLER: Do we have any other

2 alternative dates if that doesn't work, like two or

3 --

4 MR. CYMBALSKI: We can put the 27th or the

5 28th, 24th, 23rd, let's shoot for the 30th.

6 MS. MILLER: Okay.

7 MR. DELASKI: Any alternative dates that

8 week John? The 28th?

9 MR. CYMBALSKI: We did put the 28th or the

10 27th. 

11 MS. KLINE: I have an industry meeting,

12 but it's here.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: 24th Friday?

14 MR. DELASKI: I'm not available that week. 

15 How about the first of May.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't have May in front

17 of me. The 30th is a Friday -- a Thursday because

18 Friday is the first.

19 MS. MILLER: John can you send us a list

20 of dates that you all would feel would be good and

21 then the committee can decide or do a call.

22 MR. DELASKI: Well if the 30th works, the
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1 only question is to try to get -- and hopefully Scott

2 Harris.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me just put a -- April

4 30th.

5 MS. MILLER: Put a hold on it.

6 MR. DELASKI: And then we will go from

7 there.

8 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, while we are

9 discussing this we are having a report come out on

10 June 15th, we need to have one soon after that why

11 don't we try and peg that one as well.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So now we are calling for

13 a June date, I don't have the dates for June in front

14 of us.

15 MR. DELASKI: Sounds good.

16 MR. HON: ASHRAE starts on the 24th.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great, that's a great day

18 to have it.

19 MR. DELASKI: We wanted to make sure we

20 reserve some time at the end here for additional

21 topics and public comment.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I had some people they
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1 passed to me and yeah -- and the people on the

2 webinar want to ask again whether or not they want to

3 speak at this point please raise your hand on the

4 webinar. I think we can unmute you. Okay we must

5 have missed the first tip off or something I don't

6 know. 

7 They are all distracted by the different

8 screen. Anyone in the gallery, I think we have a few

9 more Michael?

10 MR. MCCABE: Michael McCabe, my comments

11 represent my own views and two points on test

12 procedures. John when you talked about the charter

13 for the commercial heating and air conditioning group

14 you talked about limiting it to standards. Since the

15 proposed rule out on the furnace test, commercial

16 furnace test -- the proposed rule is being discussed

17 with potential air conditioner test procedures, would

18 that be part -- could that be part of the charge for

19 the committee?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, we're just going to

21 stick with the standards at this point and I will

22 leave that proceeding because it could have some
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1 bearing, hopefully it will have a big bearing so with

2 that timing I think we have decided that it's better

3 to just stick with the standards at this point.

4 MR. MCCABE: And the second kind of

5 follows up the general discussion test procedures

6 that Tom raised, for some of the background folks may

7 not -- many of you know who I am but for those who

8 don't I'm a retired person that worked in building

9 efficiency programs for most of my 40 year career,

10 including much of it with the appliance standards

11 program. This year will be the 40th anniversary of

12 the passage of the original legislation, Energy

13 Policy and Conservation Act and in 1978 the first

14 amendment to it. One of the principal reasons for

15 that amendment was over test procedures.

16 So test procedures have always been an

17 issue that the program has struggled with and so I

18 commend you for picking that up and for anything the

19 committee can do on that development with the agency. 

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay thank you for that, I

21 don't think we have anything else at this time, I

22 will strike the gavel. Thank you again for coming,
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1 thanks for everyone on the webinar. I think it was a

2 very productive and it looks like we have a lot of

3 work ahead of us, thanks again. Get home safe for

4 those that are traveling and see you next time.

5 MR. DELASKI: Thank you everybody. 

6 (Concluded at 12:52 P.M.)

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A

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130:1 131:12

145:22 157:2

absolutely 66:9

139:7,14

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accelerate 141:22

accomplish 62:9

account 54:20 94:7

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accrue 147:7

accurate 83:11

acknowledgement

107:8

acronym 13:13,13

act 89:21 98:15

109:5,9,11 119:20

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100:7 101:21

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123:3 124:15,20

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115:17 130:9

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86:17 118:22

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Boy 91:22

brand 49:18

branding 34:21

breadth 101:2

break 30:12 43:18

68:2,4,4

breakfast 45:14

breaks 61:18

breath 41:6

brewing 157:11

bridge 93:12

bring 33:13 91:17

98:20 99:6 103:20

bringing 46:14

109:19 120:5

brings 41:2 123:20

149:4

broad 28:4 44:8

76:18 77:10 92:15

127:8,12

broaden 46:5

broadening 41:6

broader 28:10

127:9

broadly 63:4

broken 32:4

brought 74:19

126:11 140:21

156:14

Brundage 2:14

buck 137:11 149:19

150:7

buckets 20:10

bucks 18:22

build 31:2,5 48:21

130:9 141:17

building 6:14 16:3

44:13 85:10

116:10 136:6,7

141:16 163:8

buildings 4:21

built 46:19

bunch 45:11 126:11

147:18

burden 47:19 73:11

121:5,20 131:11

145:19 151:21

business 8:22 11:12

23:3 38:2 44:1

68:9 155:19

businesses 139:5

buy 10:14 35:1 41:4

46:7,8 61:18

142:6

buying 49:22
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buys 40:16

C

C 4:1

C&I 39:15 125:22

cabinet 14:7,8,12

cabinets 13:17

24:14 27:20

calculation 145:16

calculations 24:8

83:15 133:2

calendar 130:10

131:18 146:2

153:12

California 2:20 6:5

6:19 26:2 92:9

100:4

call 24:5 25:6 45:6

60:9 90:17 109:16

151:16 155:12,15

157:18 160:21

called 17:17 48:9

calling 113:13 132:2

161:12

calls 9:21 88:21,22

114:10

capabilities 106:10

capital 138:9

capture 129:5

car 139:21

cards 73:18 81:1

care 4:14 147:1

career 163:9

case 20:1 60:15 73:8

76:1 77:12 86:13

87:18 97:11 99:17

126:14

cases 20:4 99:5

cash 137:21

Caskey 2:15 7:3,3

16:16,16 18:7

23:5,5 35:11,11

47:4,16,18 58:7

58:18 60:11,11

64:4,4,22 66:9

67:4,4 82:13,14

91:15,17 105:8,8

107:21 109:14

119:18 144:18

149:3 152:17

155:21 156:5,5

157:5

Cassidy 10:14

cast 63:4

catch 114:21 128:2

categories 8:1 18:18

28:5 29:17 44:5,8

131:3

category 26:6,20

34:5 130:14,19

caught 128:2

caution 89:14

CE 149:20

CEE 80:5

CEER 139:22,22

center 60:4

centrifugal 44:18

45:5,7,10

certain 33:15,15

47:21 56:19 61:12

62:6 79:21 88:4

134:4,4 146:9

certainly 25:6 27:15

35:7 40:5 87:12

93:14 123:11

139:13

certainty 131:7

certification 76:2

93:18 113:22

cetera 12:11,12,12

14:15 151:19

challenge 62:22

102:8 127:13

150:18

challenged 77:2

challenges 26:13

53:10 127:21

challenging 40:13

40:17

chance 121:1

148:18

change 33:19 90:3

90:11,12 91:1

94:18 95:7,7

96:16 97:5 98:9

105:20 106:12

120:11 123:1

144:7,10

changed 106:14

changes 90:7 94:19

94:21 95:3,20

97:10 134:8

143:10 144:9

146:6

changing 143:21

characteristics

18:21 86:2

characterization

126:2

charge 162:18

chargers 127:9

Charles 2:19 35:16

Charlie 7:17,20

11:2 12:9 28:2

34:4 38:9,9 57:10

75:12 90:5,6

112:9 140:18,19

161:8

Charlie's 104:18

charter 36:11

162:12

chartered 109:10

155:5

cheat 42:16

check 158:2

check-ins 16:8

child 29:5

chillers 13:18

choice 11:16 97:1

choices 85:3

choose 114:20

choosing 81:16

chosen 115:2

Circuit 135:7

circulated 125:7

126:18

circumstances

46:20

circumvent 82:21

civil 14:1

clarify 107:16,20

class 27:19

classes 111:20

130:20

clear 12:11 14:14

24:3 48:15

clearly 29:6 72:18

107:2 145:6 147:5

Cleary 3:4 5:13,13

22:2,2,10 26:21

26:21 67:10 69:1

69:5 76:6,6 77:4

88:11,12 97:15,15

122:8 157:8,8,21

158:3

clock 87:11

close 8:19 96:4

112:21

closed 95:14 155:21

closely 19:10

closer 35:9

cloth 32:21

clothes 145:15,15

clunkers 137:21

co-chair 9:7 10:3

co-chairs 7:2

coalition 6:16

Coca-Cola 10:13

code 118:5 136:7

141:19

codes 136:6 141:16

Cohen 2:5 89:17,17

90:12,13 95:10,10

96:10,18 97:10

99:8,8 108:17,17

109:15 110:9,9,20

111:7 116:6,6

119:7,13,21 135:3

135:3,21 136:1

146:18 149:13

155:13 156:2

158:15

cold 32:21

collect 106:18 148:1

collecting 88:7

121:8

collection 121:12

124:5,6

collective 143:16

collectively 130:1

combined 100:1

come 8:11,16 9:19

9:20,21 12:18

16:7,12 26:9,11

26:11 30:18 33:6

55:21,21 56:1

59:7 60:5 65:15

68:6 71:7,9,11,12

71:15 72:9 77:2

77:19 81:12 86:5

86:13,20 98:10

105:4,5 108:20

111:5 114:16

118:2,17 122:17

125:5,14 127:19

128:14,17,18

129:8 133:20

140:8 148:3

154:12 156:17,20

159:3 161:9

comes 58:1 93:2

109:6 116:15

123:8 132:11

135:6,10 136:16

143:20

coming 11:1,2 32:16

52:7 62:19 63:6

65:1 84:10 96:2

104:20 108:5

116:11 128:10

142:16 143:19

163:22

commenced 54:16

commend 163:18

comment 9:1 15:3

16:14 25:10 46:22

52:17 57:12 68:22

73:7,10 74:2 82:6

95:14 96:4 99:18

106:19 115:14,20

161:21

comments 12:14

15:13 33:3 47:2,4

53:4,19 54:13,21

73:22 88:10 94:2

94:3 95:8 98:7

100:20 112:8

115:15 117:20

124:22 162:10

commercial 7:21,22

8:2 29:8,18 30:3,4

38:20 44:1,17,19

46:10 52:19 69:7

69:8 70:19 71:2,2

72:22 80:7 113:18

113:19 162:13,15

Commission 2:20

6:5,6 100:4

commit 98:1,8

commitment 76:22

102:2,3,10,10

commitments 128:4

committee 1:3 4:5

8:22 9:14,22 10:7

10:12,17 11:2,3

31:14 38:3 39:5

41:9 55:20 57:22

63:2 64:7 74:21

76:7 77:9,11,14

80:14 81:18 82:9

97:18 98:3 100:13

109:5,8,9,10,11

113:12 118:3

119:2,6 122:4

125:10,11,17

126:7,10 127:7,15

128:16,21 129:4

129:21 141:21

150:16 154:18

155:6,16 160:21

162:19 163:19

committee's 143:9

common 26:2 35:4

84:14 108:14

126:20,21

communicating

155:9

communication

141:13

community 69:19
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companies 33:14

company 2:14,21

7:22 8:11 33:16

140:21

compared 111:22

comparing 28:20

70:8

compatible 139:16

complain 134:17

complaint 81:2

complete 50:8

completed 27:16

36:13 148:8

completely 90:14

133:12 134:14

complex 17:20

53:22 54:2 56:17

56:19 90:4 93:22

135:15,16

complexities 97:11

complexity 95:12

compliance 144:12

complicated 27:13

48:22 63:8 84:18

85:11 89:4,18

complications 96:2

110:1

comply 72:15 78:14

133:8 150:7,14

component 18:9

40:14 48:6,18,19

50:8 60:20

components 35:20

48:1 49:9

compressor 14:17

computer 60:4

concept 49:15 56:5

130:4 154:11

concern 49:14 81:9

92:22 101:5

concerned 100:5,16

105:22

concerns 48:3 82:4

85:13 93:12

127:12

Concluded 164:6

conditioner 71:22

72:5 139:15 140:1

162:17

conditioners 69:7

70:19 71:3 113:19

conditioning 69:14

141:2 162:13

conference 155:11

confidence 77:9

confidential 83:8

106:17

confidentially 83:10

confused 105:10

132:5 143:19

confusing 132:19

134:21

Congress 6:2 70:10

88:21 89:1,5,6

connected 139:12

cons 58:11 64:11

consensus 15:21

20:2,10 41:15

46:3 86:7,8,20

87:1,6 93:4 94:4

94:12 95:17,18

102:4 104:14,15

104:17 109:2,13

111:15 113:12

125:19

consent 37:22

Conservation 2:18

5:3 163:13

consider 10:1 13:15

15:5,12 18:14

19:7,10 35:17

63:3 64:20 94:20

140:20

consideration 65:6

considerations

29:21 52:2,8

144:15

considering 38:17

considers 15:16

consist 11:21 13:15

consistency 53:15

consistent 72:10

consists 6:16

consolidate 156:19

consolidated 156:13

constraint 36:6

122:21

constraints 128:9

constructive 41:15

consultant 10:15

consultants 83:4

consume 24:14

consumer 6:19

145:3,5

consumption 23:10

85:8,10 129:9,10

129:16

contemplate 118:9

content 66:17

contention 32:17

112:1

context 41:1 53:17

54:5,5

contractor 101:10

contractors 92:12

101:15 104:5,9

132:9

contribute 119:2

control 49:19 61:15

controlled 62:19

controversial 22:17

33:8

conversation 32:14

75:18 156:4

conversations 20:8

57:12 78:2

convinces 106:13

cool 14:5

cooled 13:17 24:14

27:19

cooler 25:17,18 26:1

coolers 25:12 26:4

cooling 28:15 47:20

139:17

coordinating 143:2

coordination 143:1

copies 42:13

copy 41:21

corner 103:12

correct 70:4 76:12

76:14 119:7 136:1

136:20,21

correlation 90:9

cost 83:9 126:22

138:2,9,17,21

150:11

costs 72:15 83:16

Council 2:18 5:3

69:16

Counsel 5:17 89:18

99:9 108:18

110:10

Counsel's 95:11

count 37:12 67:13

counter 108:5

country 26:5

counts 145:14

couple 9:11 21:5

39:8,18 46:18

56:16 59:20

111:11 122:22

125:21 126:3

128:14 146:4

156:11 157:13

course 38:5 53:4

78:11 92:17

153:22

court 85:15,16,18

135:10

Cousins 10:13

cover 11:20 39:14

39:15 43:11 48:11

49:7

coverage 11:19

41:11 53:16

covered 17:17 18:2

30:3 42:21 48:13

48:15 50:15,16

53:11

covering 49:8

covers 17:8 49:12

crack 66:13

crazy 132:22

create 66:16 96:5

104:10 117:22

126:9 127:2

created 89:6 96:18

101:8 109:9 117:6

creates 95:11 99:15

121:20

creating 109:2,12

110:12,15 122:11

152:15

creation 64:8 77:11

153:8

creative 126:22

critical 60:22 78:14

83:5 112:11

cross 9:19 120:20

121:10 141:13

142:2

cross-cutting

125:12 127:12

129:20,22

crossovers 75:16

cubes 14:15

cuff 148:16

current 99:3 147:3

currently 94:16

curve 25:2

curved 44:16

customed 52:6

customers 29:12

cut 131:11 158:1

159:5

cutting 9:19 120:20

121:10

CYBALSKY 43:17

cycle 121:16 122:3

140:3 145:13,14

CYMBALSKI

159:12,18,22

160:4,9

Cymbalsky 2:3 4:3

4:3,15 7:17 8:12

11:11 15:15 19:3

21:17,20 22:7,13

23:3,21 31:21

36:5 37:9 38:16

42:4,8,15 46:16

52:16 57:5,19

59:22 66:12,21

67:3,5 68:5,8,15

69:4 72:19 74:14

74:18 75:8 103:16

107:15 113:9,17

114:8,13 115:6,16

120:8 122:20

124:19 136:14

137:1 142:7

147:12 158:8,16

158:20 160:13,16

161:3,22 162:20

163:20

D

D 4:1

D.C 1:8 8:8

Dan 2:5 89:17 90:13

95:10 97:16 99:8

108:17 110:9

116:6 119:17

135:3 149:12

dare 91:22

data 15:8,8,9,9,10

18:5 30:17 54:14

55:11,12 82:5

84:2,10,21 88:1,2

88:6,7 91:6,9

95:11 96:16

104:21 105:4,6

106:3,18 107:2

108:22 121:8,12

123:13 124:5,5,13

125:2 129:16

133:1 144:13

145:4,5 147:6,7

148:1

date 23:1 36:11

41:19 61:19 63:7

70:13 72:1,6,10

97:5,8 113:3,3,5,6

113:7,9 115:5

124:2 130:16

147:3,5,5,8,8

159:13 161:13

dates 72:1 146:20

146:21 147:1,2

159:6 160:2,7,20
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Dave 3:3 115:13

David 2:20 6:4

100:2,3 102:7

109:18 151:14

dawdle 56:11

day 29:9 44:7 88:5

88:5 103:19 105:2

106:8,8 107:18

124:16,19 131:20

134:10 159:21

161:17

days 16:6 111:5

DC 92:9

deadline 55:19

78:15 87:19 89:6

96:1 102:11

112:21 140:13

158:5

deadlines 79:2

102:2 104:14

128:3 140:10

158:10

deal 35:21 40:22

50:5,10,22 59:11

62:22 84:21 90:8

109:11

dealing 47:5

deals 137:20

dealt 30:10 52:9

debate 59:2

Deborah 5:20 6:13

11:1 23:21,22

40:8 41:20 42:13

43:13 53:20 63:15

64:15 65:9 68:12

69:9 74:3 79:5,7

87:8 97:3 111:4

114:5 122:12,13

140:5 149:8,17

151:4 157:17

158:6

Deborah's 86:15

142:20

December 126:1

decide 13:5 19:14

63:16 88:18

111:17 160:21

decided 27:14 56:19

88:3 105:1 163:2

deciding 59:19

decision 107:13

decisions 95:6

dedicate 154:15

deepening 39:10

deficiency 128:7

define 51:20 93:7

122:18

defined 29:6 44:2

93:3

definitely 28:4

definition 17:18

51:16,18,21 57:17

149:11

definitions 26:13

definity 63:20

DELAKSI 57:3

deLaski 2:17 6:10

6:10 9:9 19:17

24:22 25:10 26:1

28:2 29:22 31:4

34:20 36:16 38:21

42:1,6,12 43:1

47:2 53:2 54:2

55:17 56:9 58:6

58:14,20 60:6

62:11,14,18,21

64:1 65:12,18

66:7,11,19 67:1

68:3,21 69:6,12

73:22 75:12 76:5

76:14 77:7,22

78:9 82:12 84:16

85:12 86:5 87:11

88:10,20 90:5

91:16,22 93:13,22

94:10,14 96:8,17

97:7,14 98:10

100:2 101:6 104:3

107:5 108:12

109:16 110:17

112:8 113:2,5,11

113:16 114:12

115:17 116:1

118:21 119:12,16

120:13 122:7,12

125:4 131:21

133:10 136:22

140:18 142:10

143:14 144:2,4,19

146:2,7,17 147:20

148:2 149:4,15,22

151:5,7 152:4,7

152:12 153:10

154:9 155:15

157:4,22 158:4,7

158:11 159:8,20

160:7,14,22 161:6

161:15,19 164:5

delay 67:21

deliberately 136:11

deliver 150:11

demand 146:9

department 1:1,6

2:1 3:1 12:21

20:19 26:8 29:6,8

59:5 70:7 73:1

74:5,22 75:9

76:21 77:21 78:21

79:9 80:22 81:9

82:7 88:1 89:21

95:5 97:17 102:6

102:19,20 105:16

107:3,7 108:20

112:13,16 119:9

119:11 134:4

Department's 25:7

76:4 80:17 81:17

117:3

depend 18:3 19:1

79:4 115:1

depending 18:20

30:17 95:19

depends 18:6 56:21

78:20 115:6

derail 100:17

describe 137:21

describing 117:2

deserves 26:7

design 35:14 51:2

designated 4:4 12:9

designating 59:11

desire 71:15,22 94:4

despite 143:1

detail 12:17 47:9

detailed 16:1 98:4

details 22:16,17

32:10 54:1

determination

11:19 89:11 136:9

determine 99:17

116:20

determined 43:2

110:21 120:7

develop 12:21 13:9

15:1 17:12 26:3

39:17 102:4 129:1

137:17 157:7

developed 84:19

126:22 133:3

141:1

developing 39:12

80:2 127:5 133:4

development 4:20

6:9,17 25:4

120:15 126:5

163:19

device 138:4,10

devices 26:2

DFO 73:5

Diane 2:21 5:6 11:1

29:22 30:1 40:15

48:8 53:5 61:8

62:11 65:20 68:15

79:10 84:16 87:21

128:12 131:21,22

133:12 142:4

143:18

Diane's 143:8

dictating 65:4

died 139:7

difference 44:6

113:1

differences 45:16

different 8:1,13

11:21 17:11,12,16

17:16 18:7,17,18

18:21,22 20:13,14

28:19,19 32:5

33:14 45:15 51:15

52:1,2,8 75:21

77:12 81:6 84:4

89:13 99:5 107:9

108:15 113:10

117:18 118:1

126:12 132:21

133:13 134:9

136:7 144:13

153:20,20 162:7

difficult 48:18 90:8

diminishing 149:7

direct 70:1 148:3

direction 58:19 63:3

129:4

directions 58:9

directives 65:13

directly 80:12

125:11

Director 6:11

disagree 145:10

disagreed 48:14

disappointed 49:1

disconnect 61:20

disconnected 63:10

63:11

disconnects 28:7

discover 83:19

discovery 83:3,15

discuss 27:12 51:15

100:7 101:2 108:4

111:14 114:10,20

120:20 151:2

157:6 158:21

discussed 37:17

41:14 52:18 57:17

59:7 63:20 66:2,5

75:14 88:13 93:17

114:1 149:8

162:16

discussing 45:18

107:19 108:9

161:9

discussion 4:8 9:15

12:4 19:1 21:16

33:5 35:7,10

38:22 39:4 40:4

55:13 57:4 66:17

71:1 72:18 78:8,9

78:10,12 98:13

102:12,18 103:2

103:10 106:22

107:6 108:22

109:12,20 116:5

118:14,19 119:3

128:10 145:9

151:11,17 155:18

163:5

discussions 18:4

23:20 34:1 39:7

41:8 43:5,9 47:12

48:14 51:11 55:15

69:17 70:15

102:12 103:20,22

109:1 126:4

127:19 128:15

132:10 140:7

141:13

distinction 44:4

50:14 135:12

distinguish 51:13

distracted 162:7

distribution 7:10

137:16

distributors 92:14

diverging 49:15

division 6:9

docket 95:8

dockets 71:6

document 25:8

99:12

documents 99:10,10

99:19

DOE 2:3,4,5,6,7,8,9

2:10 4:4,18,22

6:17 8:6 12:6

17:15,20 18:15

19:3 22:14,18,20

31:22 34:5,10

36:5 38:11,18

39:13 43:6 51:5,6
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57:21 59:22 68:9

70:11 72:19 73:6

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91:11 94:2 98:1

98:14,17 100:18

104:19 105:12,14

105:18 106:6

107:15,16 108:4,8

108:14 109:19

111:16 114:4,14

116:5 122:4,16

123:9,14,19 127:5

127:20,20 128:21

132:9 136:3,15

142:1 145:1,8

154:6 156:8,15

157:19,20

DOE's 17:17 18:16

23:16 27:2 42:15

51:18 52:13 55:9

80:19 81:12 82:15

115:2 128:8

dog's 45:14

doing 21:11 30:19

35:17 36:17 52:12

62:3 80:4 81:19

83:17 96:12 99:10

101:10,16 103:1

116:18 117:17

118:16 126:6

128:5 129:11,15

134:17 140:11

142:22 152:15

153:5,7

domestic 34:13

Donald 2:14

door 49:20

double 42:17 104:8

104:11

doubt 63:21

downstream 145:16

draft 23:16 38:11

51:8 54:15

drawing 26:15

93:13

drive 49:18

drops 8:20

drug 16:22

dry 32:3

dryer 145:15

duct 44:3

ducted 44:9,11

due 28:13 35:8

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wait 22:3,5 147:10

want 4:6 7:18 10:11

10:22 11:5,10

19:18 24:3 27:5,9

28:2 29:12 30:21

32:3 36:8 43:14

58:22 59:1,2,9,13

59:14,15 60:8

63:4,9 64:1,2,2,19

67:14 68:1,2 74:6

76:12 81:13 98:10

110:5,7 113:15

114:22 115:19

116:7 118:20

119:19,21 120:21

121:1,3 125:1

126:9 129:5,21

133:22 136:12

140:6 142:17

150:13 151:8

154:14 157:5

158:16,22 162:2,2

wanted 9:4 75:22

155:12 161:19

wanting 56:10 74:9

wants 38:8 81:1

washer 145:15

Washington 1:8 3:2

8:8

wasn't 57:19 76:18

81:3,4 134:21

150:4

wasted 154:7

water 14:6

way 6:3 7:8 12:15

14:1 17:3 28:9,16

30:9 31:7,11

32:11 37:15 40:11

41:15 49:11 57:1

61:22 72:16 81:7

81:16 82:21 88:4

88:4 92:2 93:1,11

94:8,13 95:22

98:21 100:17,21

100:22 102:18

116:13 121:11

126:6 134:5,7

138:12,13,22

143:15 148:12

151:9 152:16,21

ways 14:3 28:5,6

73:12 96:12

113:10 118:7,17

we'll 67:5 96:1

we're 10:8 117:17

144:2 162:20

we've 127:10

webinar 8:18 9:5

46:22 67:16 162:2

162:4 164:1

week 22:15,22

56:14 111:6

116:17 132:8

148:3 159:9 160:8

160:14

weekends 146:14

weeks 115:8 158:12

158:15

welcome 4:6,9 11:4

11:10 34:16 40:6

68:8

went 18:10 22:5

32:2 57:20 60:3

102:18 125:6

126:16 127:17

139:15 141:9

142:16

weren't 81:15,22

whatnot 8:6

white 12:11 14:14

140:21

wholeheartedly

85:14 122:8

WIFI 139:16

willing 34:19 82:5

98:1,8,15

window 16:12 57:8

wine 13:17 25:12,17

25:18 26:4

Winningham 3:3

115:12,13

wise 26:10 146:13

wish 57:1

wonder 110:7

wondered 53:21

wondering 21:12

93:1,11 109:22

158:20

word 66:19,22

155:21

words 9:7 153:1

work 5:7,15,18 6:20

7:20 10:16,17

14:4,4,7 15:1,19

18:9 19:6 22:18

31:11,12 35:22

36:12 37:1 44:3

46:1 48:19 52:11

71:12,15 74:9

75:3 76:22 83:2

92:4 99:14 102:16

105:7 116:13

118:16,16 122:6

123:2,15 125:13

129:16 130:1,6

132:4,13 142:3

150:10 151:4
Federal Advisory Committee Meeting

March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 184

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13:8,14 14:20

15:5,6 18:14 19:6

19:7,13,14 20:17

22:4 23:8,14,20

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32:1,10 33:11,18

34:7,11 37:16,21

37:22 38:3 51:19

52:20 54:15,16,19

56:18,21 57:7,15

58:1,3,9,22 59:1,3

59:4,5,9 63:20

64:8 66:15 67:12

67:15,20,21 68:10

68:12,17 73:2

80:12,14 82:18

87:1 95:9 100:10

100:11,21 101:1,3

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109:9 110:2,3,5

110:12,15 111:3

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114:20 125:14,16

126:9,17 132:3

141:21 146:21

152:16,20,20

157:3

works 3:2 39:9

48:17 57:2 91:13

92:8 100:14

160:22

workshops 76:22

world 55:10 64:5

126:13 141:1

Worse 158:8

worth 88:9 103:6

124:4

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107:1 110:10

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wrestle 59:3 150:17

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34:3 36:6 42:4

50:22 53:20 56:12

67:3 82:13 94:6

94:10 113:17

130:7 135:21

142:10 146:6

152:9 155:15

162:1

year 16:22 17:1

24:12,13,15,17

55:22 70:4 77:2

78:15 79:12 86:19

87:4 138:8 146:16

148:5,17,18,18

151:21 152:3,8

153:11 163:9,11

years 5:8,9 7:7,15

8:5 9:12 25:13

39:8,18 44:22

45:12,18 60:13

80:4 97:12 122:14

122:22 123:14

131:1,16 132:7

145:2 146:5,13

147:22 148:7

149:9,16 156:12

years' 124:4

yesterday 142:9,16

young 138:4

Z

zero 37:2

0

1

1 43:7,11 131:20

1.8 24:16

1.9 24:16

1/8th 43:8 57:13

1:00 115:21

10 5:8,9,11 156:20

10:40 68:5

10:50 68:6

100 29:12 44:21

45:12 133:1

100% 110:17,18

1000 1:7

103 132:7,10,15

12:52 164:6

14 43:22 44:2

111:10

15 132:7 134:10

156:20

15th 112:17,18

113:2,8,13 114:3

114:7 161:10

19 1:12 139:22

1978 163:13

1980 88:21

1993 5:22 134:19

1999 5:22

1st 87:6

2

2 24:17 116:18

158:15

20 25:13 139:22

2000 132:7

2001 8:7

2007 128:1 134:20

2010 148:9,16

2011 116:16 117:7

148:17

2015 1:12

2016 137:18

2017 141:9

20585 1:8

22nd 158:19

23rd 160:5

24 48:12 80:5

24th 160:5,13

161:16

25 8:5

27th 160:4,10

28th 160:5,8,9

29th 159:15

3

30 103:19 111:5,8

30th 159:12,18,22

160:5,17,22 161:4

4

4 24:13,14,14

40 163:9

40th 163:11

5

50 5:11 29:8,10

500 43:7,11

6

7

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8E-089 1:9

8th 8:15 9:14

116:10,11

9

9:00 1:13

9:25 4:2

90's 6:13 149:16

90.1 79:15,18

135:19 136:10

99 61:5

99.5 150:21
185 

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