# Date: March 19, 2015

**Case:** Federal Advisory Committee Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## U. S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING THE APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

U.S. Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, D.C. 20585 Room No. 8E-089

Thursday, March 19, 2015 9:00 a.m.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## Appearances for Department of Energy meeting. 2 3 

## John Cymbalsky - DOE 4 

## Ashley Armstrong - DOE 5 

## Dan Cohen - DOE - GC 6 

## Joe Hagerman - DOE 7 

## Janet Freimuth - DOE 8 

## Steve Fine - DOE 9 

## Wade Boswell - DOE 10 

## P:amela Pontillo - DOE 11 12 

## Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 13 

## Refrigeration Institute 14 

## Donald M. Brundage, Southern Company 15 

## John F. Caskey, National Electrical Manufacturers 16 

## Association 17 

## Andrew deLaski, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 18 

## Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation Council 19 

## Charles Hon, True Manufacturing 20 

## David G. Hungerford, California Energ Commission 21 

## Diane M. Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Company 22 

## Michael J. McCabe,Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## Appearances for Department of Energy meeting. 2 

## Kevin Washington, Illinois Tool Works Inc. 3 

## Dave Winningham, Allied Air Enterprises 4 

## Jennifer Cleary, Association of Home Appliance 5 

## Manufacturers 6 

## Kelley Kline, GE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## P R O C E E D I N G S 2 

## (9:25 a.m.) 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so this is John Cymbalsky 4 

## from DOE. I am the designated federal official for 5 

## the ASRAC Federal Advisory Committee for Appliance 6 

## Standards. I want to welcome everyone to today's 7 

## meeting. You could see the agenda up on the screen. 8 

## We just had our ethic's discussion and so we are our 9 

## welcome point and I think the first thing we should 10 

## do is actually go quickly around the table. We do 11 

## have a few new members, if you could just you know, 12 

## state your name, your affiliation and then the 13 

## relevant experience that other's around the table 14 

## would care to know about that would be great so, 15 

## again I am John Cymbalsky I am the program manager 16 

## for appliance standards. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm Ashley Armstrong, I'm 18 

## the ASRAC rep from DOE. I worked on the appliance 19 

## standards and I oversee the test procedure 20 

## development and the verification and testing program 21 

## that we run out of the buildings. 22 

## MR. HAGERMAN: I'm Joe Hagerman with DOE.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## I run the miscellaneous refrigeration rule. 2 

## MR. ECKMAN: I'm Tom Eckman with the 3 

## Northwest Power Conservation Council. I guess I've 4 

## been involved in appliances since1987 when EPAC was 5 

## adopted. 6 

## MS. JAKOBS: My name is Diane Jakobs. I 7 

## work for Rheem and I am an engineer and I've been in 8 

## advanced R&D for 10 years I was engineering manager 9 

## for furnaces for 10 years and right now I'm helping 10 

## with all the rulemakings that apply to Rheem which is 11 

## more than 10 and less than 50 so yeah I've been here 12 

## many times and I'm excited to be here. 13 

## MS. CLEARY: Hi I'm Jennifer Cleary with 14 

## the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers and I 15 

## work regulatory affairs including the efficiency. 16 

## MS. KLINE: Kelley Kline, Regulatory 17 

## Counsel and Leader for GE Appliances and Lighting 18 

## where I do a lot of work around energy efficiency 19 

## standards. 20 

## MS. MILLER: My name is Deborah Miller and 21 

## I'm a new member of ASRAC but not new to this 22 

## process. From 1993 through 1999 I worked with MikeFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## McCabe to help lead the standard's office and I let 2 

## the process improvement when the Congress tried to 3 

## shut the program down. Nice to be back by the way. 4 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: I'm David Hungerford I'm 5 

## with the California Energy Commission. I'm a former 6 

## special adviser to Mr. Rosenfeld at the Commission 7 

## and as such I've worked on appliance rulemakings and 8 

## I'm senior scientist in the energy efficiency 9 

## research and development division. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: I'm Andrew DeLaski, I'm the 11 

## Executive Director of the Appliance Standards 12 

## Awareness Project. I've been working on standards 13 

## policy since the late 90's where I first met Deborah 14 

## here in this building. I'm working on appliance 15 

## standards when she was with the agency. ASAP is a 16 

## coalition project that consists of organizations that 17 

## are active in DOE standards development including 18 

## representatives from environmental groups, efficiency 19 

## advocacy organizations, consumer groups, California 20 

## utilities and others who work together to advance new 21 

## appliance standards. 22 

## So I am involved with the ASRAC and haveFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## launched to serve with John Mandyck as one of the 2 

## co-chairs. 3 

## MR. CASKEY: I'm John Caskey with the 4 

## National Electrical Manufacturers Association, NEMA 5 

## and a lot of my experience has been with electric 6 

## utilities, also representing the most recently for 7 

## the last ten years the honor of representing the 8 

## electric manufacturers and I guess the way I got 9 

## involved with this was early on getting involved with 10 

## distribution transformer efficiency rulemaking as a 11 

## negotiated rulemaking process and that was one of the 12 

## early ones, if not the first one. 13 

## And that was a really good experience for 14 

## me and I thought it was a very good process so I've 15 

## been sort of a supporter of that for years and I 16 

## think that that's how I got on the ASRAC. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And then Charlie if you 18 

## want to introduce yourself and a little bit about 19 

## your history and tie in to the program please. 20 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon I work for True 21 

## Manufacturing, a commercial refrigerator 22 

## manufacturing company. We manufacture commercialFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## refrigeration of several different categories 2 

## residential and commercial some level. We 3 

## manufacture some ice machines and a few other 4 

## refrigeration packages. I have been with the 5 

## refrigeration industry for over 25 years. I have 6 

## been working with DOE and Energy Star and whatnot 7 

## since 2001. And basically I believe that there's a 8 

## lot of things going on in Washington, D.C. that needs 9 

## support. 10 

## Unfortunately for me the owner of our 11 

## company believes the same thing so here we come. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Great so again this room 13 

## is a little different than the AD room that we are 14 

## probably more used to but President Obama is actually 15 

## here today so we got booted off the 8th floor and 16 

## safely on this floor where apparently he won't come 17 

## anywhere near, so we are good here. 18 

## But yeah for the webinar people you will 19 

## have to get close to the microphone because we don't 20 

## have mic drops, I don't see any anyway that will pick 21 

## up the sound better. Just as a quick process note, 22 

## the committee is going to go about its business,Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## there is going to be opportunity for public comment 2 

## at the end. It's not necessarily an interactive back 3 

## and forth that we do have that normal public meeting 4 

## so I just wanted to point that out for the people on 5 

## the webinar and in the gallery here today. 6 

## So now I will turn it over to Andrew who 7 

## is the co-chair of ASRAC for a few opening words and 8 

## then we will get right to the agenda. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: Thanks John and it's nice to 10 

## be here in person. I think we have done a number of 11 

## these meetings on the phone over the past couple of 12 

## years to address particular topics that were being 13 

## raised. We did an initial meeting in person up on 14 

## the 8th floor when the Committee was launched and we 15 

## had a good discussion then and a lot of issues and 16 

## topics came up that we really haven't addressed since 17 

## then so I'm hoping that as we get to the second part 18 

## of our agenda today or the later part of our agenda 19 

## we can come back to some of the cross cutting topics 20 

## that we have come up. 21 

## Some of the phone calls that have come up 22 

## in our initial meeting for the parent committee toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## consider, so I encourage that we do a face-to-face 2 

## and I'm glad to see a face-to-face this time. I'm 3 

## sorry that my co-chair John Mandyck can't be here. I 4 

## know it's tough to schedule with John given his 5 

## international travel, the next time we have one of 6 

## these hopefully he can do it but at the time he was 7 

## unable to make, but it's a tough committee to 8 

## schedule which you could imagine because we're all 9 

## here in person let alone on the phone, let alone in 10 

## person. 11 

## I want to take a moment to thank the 12 

## people who have served on the Committee and have now 13 

## rotated off, Steve Cousins from Coca-Cola, and Tim 14 

## Cassidy from Best Buy, Tom Kauffman from National 15 

## Grid and Ken Peterson, independent consultant for 16 

## their work on some of the working groups and their 17 

## work on the Committee. 18 

## The ASRAC has rotating terms and they have 19 

## rotated off. Some people have re-upped for second 20 

## terms, I don't know who they are but thank you for 21 

## those of you who have re-upped for another term and 22 

## we have some new members and I want to thank them forFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## coming on board, Diane, Karim, Deborah Miller thank 2 

## you for coming on board the Committee and Charlie Hon 3 

## from True so three new members on the Committee, so 4 

## welcome to the group. 5 

## That's what I want to say as some 6 

## overview. I think we have had some very successful 7 

## working groups we are going to have, I believe we are 8 

## now going to turn to some new potential working 9 

## groups unless John you or Ashley have any additional 10 

## welcome remarks that you want to make. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Now I think we can get 12 

## down to business and I guess the first item on the 13 

## agenda is the miscellaneous refrigeration working 14 

## group and just to set it up for Joe Hagerman who you 15 

## know, if in fact this gets voted out of ASRAC to form 16 

## a working group, Joe would be the choice of the 17 

## federal employee on the working group. This is 18 

## something we have put out a few notices on, we have 19 

## the coverage determination that tentatively proposed 20 

## to cover miscellaneous refrigeration products which 21 

## consist of a few different items. 22 

## We believe that based on the unique testFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## of that this would be actually a very good product to 2 

## negotiate so with that I'll just turn it over to Joe 3 

## for a little intro on it and then have some 4 

## discussion amongst the members. 5 

## MR. HAGERMAN: So I'm Joe Hagerman, I 6 

## don't mean to blast everybody, DOE. I picked up with 7 

## rule I guess about two months ago. We had one really 8 

## good public meeting which I think a few folks here 9 

## attended, I know Charlie attended. I designated him 10 

## the official ice man at the meeting because of his 11 

## knowledge of ice, clear ice, white ice, et cetera, et 12 

## cetera, et cetera. 13 

## Look for him to maybe make some new 14 

## statements or comments about what we are proposing 15 

## here so let me just get the ask out of the way and 16 

## then I will go over what the miscellaneous 17 

## refrigeration is in detail and tell you some of the 18 

## issues that have come up as we have started talking 19 

## about regulating this. 20 

## So the ask is really to form a working 21 

## group to help the Department develop a standard for 22 

## miscellaneous refrigeration and in addition to thatFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## resolve some of the outstanding test procedure issues 2 

## that are sort of looming. Those are possibly a lot 3 

## easier to resolve and I saw that because some of the 4 

## test procedures just require some sort of qualitative 5 

## in nature value so we just need to as a group decide 6 

## on and stick with some of those issues are more 7 

## straightforward than the standard itself. 8 

## So the ask is to form a working group to 9 

## try to develop a term sheet. Now let me explain to 10 

## you what miscellaneous refrigeration is. I like to 11 

## refer to it as small miscellaneous refrigeration and 12 

## I think that is perhaps a better name for it. It has 13 

## a much better acronym because the acronym would be 14 

## SMRF's so maybe that's something that the working 15 

## group could consider but these things consist of 16 

## small refrigerator freezers, small freezers, small 17 

## hybrid refrigerators, cooled cabinets like wine 18 

## chillers, non-compressor refrigerators and then ice 19 

## makers as well. 20 

## And I say it's miscellaneous it's sort of 21 

## the products kind of fill the whole gamut of 22 

## including all the similar features or similar effectsFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## but I think of it in a logical way. I'm a civil 2 

## engineer so I'm not a mechanical engineer and a rule 3 

## of logical ways, all these products have a heat pump 4 

## and that heat pump performs the work right. The work 5 

## is to cool a medium. That medium is either air, 6 

## water if you are making ice and then the product of 7 

## that work is stored in some type of cabinet, some 8 

## type of insulated cabinet right. 9 

## And so that sounds pretty -- all the 10 

## products kind of fill that logical map except there 11 

## is a lot of nuances in this industry right. The 12 

## nuances are you know the cabinet that you are storing 13 

## things it's safe for food or is it not safe for food. 14 

## When you make ice is it the clear ice or white ice, 15 

## is it the cubes, et cetera. And then the heat pump, 16 

## is the heat pump a solid state heat pump like thermal 17 

## electrics, or is it a compressor based heat pump 18 

## right. 19 

## So because of all of those kinds of 20 

## nuances that's why I think that a working group is 21 

## kind of a best form to resolve these things as a 22 

## group of professionals and S&E's in the sector andFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## kind of work through all of these issues to develop a 2 

## term sheet. 3 

## We also received a comment from I think 4 

## AHAM early on in the process asking us to potentially 5 

## consider this as a working group and so we did this 6 

## on the agenda today and I think that the working 7 

## group is a good form also that can get additional 8 

## data. We are kind of data strapped we only have a 9 

## small subset of data so we need more data. I think 10 

## it's much easier to get that data from industry than 11 

## having us kind of do more testing, that's kind of 12 

## timely but I will open it to the floor to consider 13 

## and I would like to hear your comments just in 14 

## general if you think it's a good idea or a bad idea. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so I guess when ASRAC 16 

## considers this there is also, this is more a question 17 

## for Joe since he didn't mention it. Is there a time 18 

## period for finishing if we do vote yes is there a 19 

## time period to finish the work that you had in mind? 20 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah I can speak to that. 21 

## So the last kind of consensus on the issue of 22 

## rulemaking I did was the manufacturer housing one andFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## it was a lot more detailed in terms of all of the 2 

## technical issues and specifics and you know 3 

## regulating the whole building, you know, some 4 

## products. I think that as a group we can set aside, 5 

## you know three or four months and say that you know 6 

## that if we met over one and a half, two days per 7 

## month I think we could come to terms with this and 8 

## then as needed have bi-weekly check-ins. 9 

## ASRAC granted me and John -- John and I 10 

## worked on the last manufacturer housing group 11 

## together, if you granted me you know a three month 12 

## window to do that and then we might have to come back 13 

## and ask for an extension I think that's probably 14 

## pretty reasonable. So John can comment on the last 15 

## one that we worked on. 16 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. I think 17 

## the last one, I think some of the participants felt 18 

## that it was pretty frantic because we were trying to 19 

## do a lot in a short period of time but I think it was 20 

## good to sort of keep their feet to the fire or 21 

## whatever to make progress, otherwise you know if we 22 

## gave them a year they would have drug it out to aFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## year so I think having a fairly short period of time 2 

## to try and get good results, I think is a beneficial 3 

## way to proceed. 4 

## Since this is an area that I am not 5 

## familiar with relative to their refrigeration, one of 6 

## my fundamental questions is how similar are the 7 

## products and in terms of a term sheet is there like 8 

## one term sheet that covers all of the products 9 

## because they use similar technologies or is there you 10 

## know, are there really like five or six or ten 11 

## different segments within that sector and you have to 12 

## develop a different, sort of term sheet for all of 13 

## those? 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from 15 

## DOE. My personal opinion is there are a lot of 16 

## different products in different segments as you have 17 

## called them that are covered under DOE's proposed 18 

## definition of miscellaneous refrigeration products. 19 

## I think that's one of the reasons that this rule is 20 

## pretty complex for us and one of the reasons that DOE 21 

## feels it is a good idea to negotiate. 22 

## I don't think there has to be just oneFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## term sheet. I don't think there has to be multiple 2 

## term sheets it could all be covered in one. Honestly 3 

## it is going to depend on how the progress of the 4 

## negotiations go and what type of discussions they end 5 

## up having with those SME's and where the data takes 6 

## are so I think it just depends. 7 

## MR. CASKEY: So are they different enough 8 

## that you would take like the one sort of sector or 9 

## component and whatever and then work on that to see 10 

## how that process went and then did the other ones 11 

## later or do they all have to be done in a series or 12 

## parallel? 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's 14 

## something that the working group could consider. 15 

## Right now they are in one rule for DOE so I think 16 

## DOE's schedule and its analysis right now is in one 17 

## rule, we have one spreadsheet, a lot of different 18 

## inputs that are specific to the different categories 19 

## but ultimately they are all some type of 20 

## refrigeration equipment and depending on the unique 21 

## characteristics of the different models they are 22 

## going to fall into different bucks so they areFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## somewhat inter-related and the discussion will depend 2 

## on that. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And this is John from DOE, 4 

## I think Tom could probably pick this up with what we 5 

## did on pumps right so pumps was you know, passed to 6 

## the working group to work on and they split out a 7 

## piece of the pumps in the working group to consider 8 

## later. So I think that and what we did in 9 

## transformers, we had three types, now I would 10 

## consider them more closely related than some of these 11 

## but we got to yes on two but not one. 12 

## So you know I think there is some good 13 

## past history to grant the package to the working 14 

## group and let the working group decide sort of the 15 

## inerts of how to proceed with multiple products 16 

## within miscellaneous refrigeration. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: So this is Andrew, I'll 18 

## touch that in a second but I want to second your 19 

## notion that there is some strong parallels to the 20 

## transformer process. I think that both John and I 21 

## participated in and Tom participated in it as well 22 

## and if there is anybody else here that was a part ofFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## that process. But in that case you know as John said 2 

## the group reached consensus you know there were three 3 

## types of transformers in the negotiation and the 4 

## manufacturers were participating and in some cases no 5 

## one made all three types and some made just one type 6 

## of transformer. 7 

## So there was some specific top 8 

## conversations around specific types of transformers 9 

## that had to be tackled and ultimately we reached 10 

## consensus on one of those three buckets of 11 

## transformers, three types of transformers which are 12 

## although they do a similar function stepping down 13 

## voltage could be quite different technically on the 14 

## different types of transformers, so I think there's a 15 

## pretty strong parallel there. 16 

## And I would just remind you that what's 17 

## negotiated by the working group is the basis of a 18 

## recommendation for a proposed rule, right and the 19 

## department government that has to publish that 20 

## proposed rule would still have to appear to the 21 

## public rulemaking processes that are required by law. 22 

## So I just remind folks of that, this is not the endFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## of the process, it is we hope it becomes the basis 2 

## for a final rule but there are additional steps in 3 

## the process that have to be followed past the term 4 

## sheet. 5 

## So I saw a couple of other people to be 6 

## recognized, Kelly? 7 

## MS. KLINE: Yeah I just had a quick 8 

## question too. I was trying to recall if we had any 9 

## other examples where we had test procedure questions 10 

## as well but the question was provoked really by John 11 

## your thought about doing things in series or in 12 

## parallel and I was wondering about the significance 13 

## of the test procedure issues and if that was 14 

## something that would have to be done, maybe first by 15 

## the group and then turn to the you know the rest of 16 

## the discussion? 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The pumps negotiations 18 

## involved test procedures and standards. 19 

## MS. KLINE: Okay. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We had to get a test 21 

## metric first before we could even start. 22 

## MS. KLINE: So you would kind of do eachFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## one and then -- 2 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary did you 3 

## wait until the test procedure so once you agreed 4 

## within the working group on the test procedure and 5 

## then it went to proposed rule did you wait for that 6 

## rule to be final before you worked on it? 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No it was negotiated right 8 

## in sequence so if we are negotiating a single 9 

## rulemaking, a single negotiation. 10 

## MS. CLEARY: So you assume then that what 11 

## you agreed to in the test procedure would be 12 

## finalized? 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 15 

## I can say now as of last week it was. So we 16 

## negotiate some of the big details, the more 17 

## controversial details so was it all every little line 18 

## of the test procedure? There was some work that DOE 19 

## had to do once they got the main issues squared away 20 

## to actually turn it into a full DOE test procedure 21 

## but we did you know, our proposal that came out last 22 

## week does adhere to everything we have agreed to andFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## as to date. 2 

## (OFF THE RECORD) 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so back to business 4 

## I guess John you had -- 5 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay John Caskey with NEMA, 6 

## thank you for all of that information that's very 7 

## helpful. One of the things that I would recommend 8 

## that if we do set up a working group it is for that 9 

## first meeting to try to identify sort of the amount 10 

## of consumption in each of those areas because going 11 

## into it the members would know well these are the two 12 

## big hitters and these are the ones that are really 13 

## sort of lost in the noise but they might be able to 14 

## focus where they are working. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we have that 16 

## information is out on DOE's draft analysis so that is 17 

## not to say that we got it right but people should you 18 

## know, we did our best with our estimates so that we 19 

## do have a good indication of what that is, at least 20 

## to help with the working group discussions. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Deborah? 22 

## MS. MILLER: Yes hi it's Deborah Miller.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## I guess I have a question and you might have actually 2 

## as I was talking you might have said -- but first of 3 

## all I want to make clear that I am represent NASEO 4 

## here. I think that's important for people to know 5 

## but my question is these are a lot of I would call 6 

## miscellaneous products I know they use a lot of 7 

## energy. What sort of back in the envelope 8 

## calculations have you done on their energy use and 9 

## the potential for savings, I just need that 10 

## background. 11 

## MR. HAGERMAN: All right so I have this in 12 

## terawatts per year so the hybrid refrigerator freezer 13 

## and freezers use about .4 terawatt hours per year. 14 

## Cooled cabinets consume about 4 a little bit over 4 15 

## terawatt hours per year and non-compressor 16 

## refrigerators use about you know 1.8 - 1.9 terawatt 17 

## hours per year and ice makers 2. And I could only 18 

## just speculate on savings potentials that are you 19 

## know the time period -- hold on. 20 

## So this is Joe Hagerman I think it's about 21 

## a quad, estimated a quad. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: That's what I was going toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## say. So yeah we looked at it and it is a good sized 2 

## rulemaking in terms of other curve and scope 3 

## rulemakings, it's not the biggest thing out there but 4 

## there are a number of rulemaking under development 5 

## that have kind of been this quad ballpark so it's 6 

## certainly I'd call it sort of a medium sized 7 

## opportunity based on Department's preliminary 8 

## technical support document. 9 

## MS. MILLER: Okay. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: One thing I could comment on 11 

## it about is that you think about these products, 12 

## things like one of the products is wine coolers, 13 

## maybe not I think 20 years ago but it's a product 14 

## that has seen significant growth in terms of the 15 

## number of unit that are being installed in homes. I 16 

## bought a new home this summer and guess what it came 17 

## with a wine cooler. 18 

## I don't really need a wine cooler but I 19 

## have one now, it's nice, it's nice to have. 20 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: Did you unplug it? 21 

## MS. MILLER: He started using it, he put 22 

## beer in here.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: It's a beverage cooler, so 2 

## these devices are becoming more common and California 3 

## I think was the first to actually develop standards 4 

## for wine coolers so we have state standards in some 5 

## parts of the country for some of these products and 6 

## it is an increasing product category and one that I 7 

## think deserves attention. 8 

## So I'm glad the Department is approaching 9 

## it with the rulemaking and I think that will come 10 

## with proposal wise that they need the support that 11 

## would come and the interaction that would come with 12 

## putting into the realm of negotiated rulemaking. 13 

## Given some of the challenges around definitions 14 

## around you know what are these things, test methods 15 

## -- drawing the boundaries properly? 16 

## As someone said going after and 17 

## identifying the biggest opportunities within the 18 

## scope and focusing our efforts in the area it strikes 19 

## me that it makes sense so I am inclined to support 20 

## negotiating a rulemaking for this category. 21 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary with AHAM 22 

## and I agree with Andrew with one exception which isFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## ice makers, stand-alone ice makers. AHAM you know 2 

## questions DOE's authority to set standards for those 3 

## products and so we don't agree that those should be 4 

## included or if they are included I think maybe we 5 

## just want to be up front with our position that we 6 

## would not agree to standards for those products so 7 

## you know it may go down the path where the motors, 8 

## you know where there were three and two got a yes and 9 

## one got a no, so I just want to be up front with that 10 

## now. 11 

## And with regard to the test procedure 12 

## issue that include the -- glad to discuss those there 13 

## are a lot of complicated things that need to be 14 

## decided upon before we can move to the standards 15 

## negotiations so we would certainly support that and 16 

## having that be completed before we begin to talk 17 

## about the standards, I'm glad to see that that is how 18 

## it has happened in the past. In addition I think 19 

## there are some product class issues for cooled 20 

## cabinets at least that should be addressed by the 21 

## working group so it sounds like it's -- the 22 

## negotiation would be open for all of that and so weFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## would support that and participate in that as well. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: Charlie do you want to -- 3 

## you are a manufacturer who has a stake in this so -- 4 

## MR. HON: There are definitely these broad 5 

## spectrum categories, they are not really in some ways 6 

## they have similarities and in a lot of other ways 7 

## they have total disconnects and that has been the 8 

## negotiated rulemakings that I have been involved in 9 

## were very much the same way in the past. 10 

## In fact there was a far broader spectrum 11 

## than what this would take on so I did not see it as a 12 

## problem getting it done. There are a lot of 13 

## questions because due to the nature of things a lot 14 

## of the final result is the same thing. You are 15 

## cooling the product but to get there is not the same 16 

## process in any way shape or form so the question is 17 

## how do you regulate that as far as test procedures go 18 

## because do you have one test for one type of product, 19 

## a different test for a different type of product and 20 

## then you are comparing apples to oranges. 21 

## You don't really know which is actually 22 

## the most efficient system to be operating to get theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## same results -- so there's a lot of activity there. 2 

## The ice machines -- there has been some objections in 3 

## the meetings previously about how they should or 4 

## should not be involved and it is sort of an orphan 5 

## child because ice machines are not necessarily 6 

## defined by the Department of Energy as clearly by 7 

## market as they are by volume. Right now the 8 

## Department says a commercial ice machine is above 50 9 

## pounds of ice generation per day and therefore 10 

## residential must be below 50 pounds of ice, but in 11 

## reality those lines are blurred by sales. There are 12 

## customers who want 100 pound ice machine on their 13 

## patio when they have the big pool and lots of 14 

## parties. 15 

## So that's another item we would have to 16 

## get involved in but I think it can be done and we end 17 

## up with another set of categories because when you 18 

## are blurring that line between commercial and 19 

## residential then the other government agencies get 20 

## involved and here is false labelling, so those are 21 

## all considerations. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: Diane?Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs from 2 

## Rheem and now it's on, okay. So I participated with 3 

## a working group with AEDM's and we covered commercial 4 

## HVAC and commercial refrigeration and I got to meet 5 

## people I didn't know and boilers and it took a lot of 6 

## time and you know it was interesting but I think 7 

## putting all of these miscellaneous products together 8 

## it might not be a good assumption that they look at 9 

## things the same way or they can be addressed in the 10 

## same manner, especially if they haven't dealt with a 11 

## rulemaking before, there's a lot of education I think 12 

## and I don't know if you can break it up into finer 13 

## than miscellaneous small things but it might be 14 

## helpful and you would get better participation I 15 

## think. 16 

## Especially I think someone said they were 17 

## depending on the manufacturers to provide data. So 18 

## it's a big expense for us to come and leave whatever 19 

## we are doing at home but if it is was more targeted 20 

## if you know maybe you take more advantage of using 21 

## teleconferences but I think if you really want strong 22 

## manufacturer participation it should be more targetedFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## to the specific groups and I'm not sure if it is the 2 

## same manufacturers that would build all of this 3 

## equipment but maybe not, sorry. 4 

## Mr. DELASKI: Kelly? 5 

## MS. KLINE: Kelly Kline, just to build on 6 

## that because I was also kind of thinking the same 7 

## thing. I thought about is there a way to target it 8 

## and I was thinking about are there any lessons we 9 

## could learn from the pumps in the test procedure 10 

## piece because my train of thought is actually you 11 

## know is there a way to target the test procedure work 12 

## and the standards work because you may need some of 13 

## the more technical expertise in terms of the makeup 14 

## of the committee where you are working on the test 15 

## procedure issues. 16 

## So I have been thinking about it from that 17 

## perspective as well so I don't know if we did 18 

## anything like that on the pumps piece, if there were 19 

## any lessons there that we might be able to glean from 20 

## that but I was having the same thought. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: But if we did it in 22 

## transformers, this is John from DOE, so in theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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### 1 

## transformers working group, you know we started out 2 

## as one big happy family but as we went we did learn 3 

## that you know, the dry types didn't necessarily want 4 

## to be with the liquid types and we did, we broken 5 

## them out and had different meetings where one was 6 

## focused specifically on one of the types of 7 

## transformers so the group actually did splinter off 8 

## there so I think that there's again good precedence 9 

## for grouping these together and then having the 10 

## working group, people who really know the details 11 

## figure out the best way to proceed as they go 12 

## through. 13 

## MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, it strikes me 14 

## from this conversation that three months is a bit 15 

## short given the scope of both the test procedure and 16 

## coming to a grips with a standard where there might 17 

## be some contention about whether this ought to be 18 

## regulated or not so is it reasonable to assume that 19 

## the test procedures advance far enough for these, we 20 

## are just talking about things at the edges or are we 21 

## talking about starting from cold cloth on many of 22 

## these?Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well I think we have a 2 

## proposal on the street for the test procedure that we 3 

## have gotten comments on so there are issues that I 4 

## think need to be resolved and I think that in order 5 

## to do that is a roundtable discussion so that we all 6 

## understand each other's point of view and come to 7 

## kind of an agreement about what some of those more 8 

## controversial issues it's not like writing a test 9 

## procedure from scratch so for sure. 10 

## And to Kelly to go back to your point 11 

## about parts and the makeup of the working group 12 

## specifically. So for parts it was all in one and 13 

## they would bring people to the meeting from their 14 

## different companies that they knew we were teamed up 15 

## a certain issue where a certain individual had 16 

## expertise. But similarly speaking that same company 17 

## would have an interest in both. 18 

## So the makeup of the working group in my 19 

## opinion didn't necessarily change to the test 20 

## procedure or the standard, but perhaps another person 21 

## joined to provide you know their technical expertise 22 

## or SME value to help along with the process and theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## discussions with that particular meeting. 2 

## MS. KLINE: Okay that makes sense. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 4 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon I have a 5 

## question for DOE. One category in this group tends 6 

## to be predominantly imported products. Have we had 7 

## any experience working with importers on this type of 8 

## a group? 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would say this is 10 

## Ashley from DOE. Either predominantly the makeup for 11 

## our past working groups for a negotiation -- I would 12 

## say typically were manufacturers that have at least 13 

## domestic facilities or offices. They may also import 14 

## products but there is nothing that precludes 15 

## importers and international manufacturers from 16 

## participating and obviously we welcome anyone that's 17 

## affected by the rulemaking to participate and to the 18 

## extent we could reach out to them further we are 19 

## willing to do that. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew and I see a 21 

## lot of branding going on so we would offer a line of 22 

## appliances and some of them they make some of themFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## they buy right and they have an interest in the whole 2 

## gamut of the rulemaking, GE does this, you don't make 3 

## everything you sell but things are under the GE badge 4 

## and that's a fairly common structure of the 5 

## marketplace I understand. 6 

## So I'm looking at our agenda, I would 7 

## certainly entertain some additional discussion on 8 

## this but I also think that we should probably due it 9 

## closer to a motion so there's going to be additional 10 

## discussion on this, yes? 11 

## MR. CASKEY: Hi John Caskey, just in terms 12 

## of the schedule. I mean I fundamentally thing that 13 

## the better you can scope something and the better 14 

## design your schedule is the more successful you are 15 

## going to be but from what I have heard so far from 16 

## Tom and Charles and others it seems like if I was 17 

## doing it I would consider like a month for just 18 

## people getting to know one another and to get the 19 

## scoping issues resolved and figure out how the 20 

## components are going to fall into groups and then 21 

## maybe a month or two to deal with some of the test 22 

## procedures and then three months of hard work.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## So from what I have heard it sounds like 2 

## maybe a six month period might be a more practical 3 

## period of time to as a goal as opposed to three or 4 

## four months. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 6 

## Yeah I'm hearing that the time constraint and I guess 7 

## there are two schools of thought. You mentioned 8 

## holding their feet to the fire so we don't want to 9 

## give them too much time because they will take it 10 

## right so maybe we can say four months is your due 11 

## date and write into the charter if we do agree that a 12 

## two month extension is on the table if the work can't 13 

## be completed in four months but they will need to 14 

## give a status report at the four month mark, is that 15 

## fair? 16 

## MR. DELASKI: That seems reasonable to me 17 

## and I think part of what you are doing is you know we 18 

## are all going to -- some of us in this room are 19 

## experts in this technology area, Scott, John others 20 

## and others aren't. There is a PTSP that has been 21 

## published or a preliminary analysis of some form. 22 

## There is a test that has been published so there is aFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## baseline of work out there that needs to be -- we are 2 

## not starting from ground zero the question is how 3 

## much time do they need so I like this idea 4 

## recognizing that they might need more than four but 5 

## at the same time encouraging them to -- 6 

## MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman we 7 

## will put in the notice that that is required reading 8 

## before you attend the first meeting. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so let's move this to 10 

## a vote of the ASRAC members. I will say that Scott 11 

## Harris who couldn't be here voiced his support for 12 

## formation. His vote does not count but I said I 13 

## would state it for the public record. John Mandyck 14 

## did not offer an opinion on this particular issue. 15 

## So the way we usually do this is we ask the group if 16 

## anybody is not in favor of forming this working group 17 

## under the terms we just discussed which is a four 18 

## month term sheet with the two month potential 19 

## extension but a report out at the four month mark. 20 

## If anybody opposes the formation of this 21 

## working group, please raise your hand. Okay, seeing 22 

## none we have a unanimous consent to form a workingFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## group for miscellaneous refrigeration products. My 2 

## next point of business is to ask for a volunteer from 3 

## the ASRAC committee to participate in this working 4 

## group. As the ASRAC member your responsibilities of 5 

## course will be to be the ASRAC eyes, ears, you are 6 

## representing ASRAC in the negotiations and so I know 7 

## we have a few interested members, I would hope. 8 

## So if anyone wants to volunteer please 9 

## raise your hand. We have Charlie, okay so Charlie 10 

## Hon will be the ASRAC member, Joe Hagerman will be 11 

## the DOE member, we will draft a federal register 12 

## notice soliciting membership from stakeholders at 13 

## large we will get that out in the federal register as 14 

## soon as possible and set up a meeting schedule. 15 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Thank you. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I would just like 17 

## to say thank you for considering it I think it is 18 

## going to help us out tremendously and DOE thanks you 19 

## very much for that. Okay so next on the agenda is I 20 

## think commercial fans and blowers. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: So thanks to everybody that 22 

## was a good discussion and I think some of the issuesFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## will probably help some of the other topics as well 2 

## but the next topic is for fans and blowers. In our 3 

## packet we have a letter from AMCA International which 4 

## asks for this discussion and recommends a formal 5 

## negotiated rulemaking committee be formed. I have 6 

## also -- the letter references me, I have been part of 7 

## the private discussions with AMCA over the past 8 

## couple of years a number of efficiency advocates who 9 

## ASAP works with has met with the fan manufacturers 10 

## represented by AMCA deepening our knowledge of the 11 

## fan market and of some of the technical issues 12 

## involved in developing the standard for fans. This 13 

## is an interesting one, it's one where DOE is 14 

## exercising their authority to cover products in the 15 

## C&I space that is authorized to cover under the 16 

## statute but not required so the agency is moving 17 

## ahead to develop standards for fans. 18 

## And issued a framework a couple of years 19 

## now, initial analysis last fall that we reached a 20 

## point in some of these private negotiations where we 21 

## realized that it really would be better to push this 22 

## over to a public negotiation, one that's akin toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## what's been happening on other products. 2 

## And Wade Smith from AMCA is here today, 3 

## the letter is signed by Wade. I think our protocol 4 

## here is to keep the discussion here at the table but 5 

## if people have questions for Wade I certainly would 6 

## welcome you to ask those questions. The opportunity 7 

## here for fans is in our view is it's a pretty -- back 8 

## to the quads question that Deborah asked earlier, I 9 

## don't have a number for this one, we don't have it 10 

## but it is probably larger than miscellaneous 11 

## refrigeration if you put it that way in terms of the 12 

## potential you know, maybe probably a multiple. 13 

## It also raises some challenging issues 14 

## with respect to a fan is often a component and fans 15 

## go into other things, I see Diane nodding her head as 16 

## somebody who buys those fans and puts them into her 17 

## products so it raises some challenging issues as to 18 

## setting a standard for a product that is ultimately 19 

## going into another product that has to meet a 20 

## standard. 21 

## So that's going to be a topic for this 22 

## group to deal with, one that is an important topicFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## that can be best wrestled with in the context of a 2 

## negotiated rulemaking that brings in this range of 3 

## stakeholders, not just the people who make fans but 4 

## the people who buy fans in some instances or make 5 

## them themselves and put them into their product. 6 

## So I think this broadening -- the breath 7 

## for those of us who have been involved in these 8 

## private discussions we thought that that's what we 9 

## can propose to this committee to put it into the 10 

## realm where it can be the full gamut of issues can be 11 

## raised both on the coverage issues and also because 12 

## it is a property regulated for the very first time 13 

## and that means back to these issues of metrics we 14 

## have just discussed we need to get those nailed down 15 

## in a consensus fashion is a constructive way to go 16 

## and therefore the recommendation that you see here is 17 

## one that is fully supported by the efficiency 18 

## advocates, the organizations that have been involved 19 

## in these private negotiations with AMCA to date. 20 

## MS. MILLER: Andrew this is Deborah Miller 21 

## I don't think we have a copy of that I haven't seen 22 

## it.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: Oh it was emailed around I 2 

## thought. 3 

## MS. MILLER: It was emailed? 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah I emailed it to 5 

## everybody. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: A short letter often -- 7 

## MS. KLINE: I did see the AHRI one. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That came separately but 9 

## there was an initial email that had two attachments 10 

## that being one of them. 11 

## MS. MILLER: Okay thank you. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Anybody else not have it 13 

## besides Deborah? There are copies around if anybody 14 

## needs them. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: From DOE's point of view I 16 

## have got a little cheat sheet of you know back of the 17 

## envelope numbers that we think this is almost double 18 

## the impact of miscellaneous refrigeration you know, 19 

## just to put it in perspective in terms of savings. 20 

## MS. KLINE: Could you say a little more 21 

## Andrew about the types of fans that would be covered 22 

## I don't feel like I have a good understanding.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: So the types of -- it's to 2 

## be determined right but the scope that was told -- we 3 

## have been talking about fans that would be rated for 4 

## horsepower or greater so that's been part of the 5 

## private discussions. And that was I believe the 6 

## scope that was initially scoped out by DOE in the 7 

## framework with one fan that would be 1 to 500 8 

## horsepower, 1/8th was the initial scope so in the 9 

## private discussions we focused on larger than that. 10 

## So that would be a topic for negotiation that has 11 

## been -- the motors standards cover 1 to 500 12 

## horsepower intervals, horsepower motor standards. 13 

## MS. MILLER: It's Deborah Miller did you 14 

## want applications perhaps as well. 15 

## MS. KLINE: I'm having a hard time getting 16 

## my arms around exactly what that means. 17 

## MR. CYBALSKY: So at this point let's 18 

## break with a little tradition. Wade why don't you 19 

## step up to the microphone and you know Wade Smith is 20 

## the technical expert here from AMCA who can probably 21 

## address this very well. 22 

## MR. SMITH: Is this on? So there are 14Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## in the commercial fan business, fan manufacturers 2 

## that have defined 14 types of fans. Four of those 3 

## are generally applied without duct work on the outlet 4 

## of the fan and that is an important distinction as 5 

## related to efficiency. Some of the fan categories 6 

## have no material difference in utility and so beg to 7 

## be lumped together so at the end of the day you end 8 

## up with about ten categories of fans in two broad 9 

## groups, those that are ducted and those which on 10 

## their output -- and those which are generally not 11 

## ducted on their output. 12 

## So just to help you relate the little 13 

## mushrooms that you see on top of building are roof 14 

## ventilators, those are exhaust fans. The -- if you 15 

## have ever looked inside your furnace you see a 16 

## forward curved fan, those fans extend up into much 17 

## larger packages that are used in commercial. There's 18 

## a backward incline fan, centrifugal fan which is 19 

## generally used at higher pressures, commercial 20 

## applications, processed applications, larger systems 21 

## and then there's -- we are an industry more than 100 22 

## years old with lots of niche opportunities andFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## industry has morphed into a series of niches and 2 

## products serve those niches. 3 

## Actual fans, tube axle fans, vein axle 4 

## fans, propeller fans and then so those are sort of 5 

## between centrifugal and axial there are some that we 6 

## call a mixed flow fan which starts out as a 7 

## centrifugal and ends up as an axial which is a very 8 

## strange thing. For an application where the air flow 9 

## path is in line as opposed to a right angle where a 10 

## centrifugal fan is typically used. 11 

## So it's a bunch of oddball stuff basically 12 

## and you know after 100 years it doesn't look so 13 

## oddball to those of us who are in the industry but I 14 

## think to the outsider it is a dog's breakfast of 15 

## different shapes and sizes and applications and 16 

## differences in utility as well. 17 

## That said through a good two and a half 18 

## years that we have been discussing this since the 19 

## original notice came out there have been a lot of 20 

## progress to try and you know make sense and that was 21 

## something that was simple enough for people to 22 

## understand and a lot of that -- I think the biggestFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## work from my perspective has been getting the 2 

## manufacturers to you know understand what the impact 3 

## is going to be on them and to form a consensus. 4 

## What we haven't done which is the next 5 

## step in the process is to broaden the stakeholder 6 

## group because this rule is going to impact lots of 7 

## folks, folks who buy fans, who employ them inside 8 

## their own products, but also folks who buy fans or 9 

## products that include fans in a private field in 10 

## commercial systems and you know there is impacts that 11 

## ripple through that matter. 12 

## And so our request for a public 13 

## negotiation was in recognition of the importance of 14 

## bringing all of those stakeholders to the table and 15 

## getting all the issues out. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks Wade and I would 17 

## like to say that I think one of those fans was in the 18 

## metro tunnel a couple of months ago, they didn't know 19 

## how to turn it on and all the smoke built up and we 20 

## appreciate a good fan in those circumstances I can 21 

## tell you that much. 22 

## Again a comment from the webinar here weFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## can read in a little bit. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: Other questions or comments 3 

## on this? John. 4 

## MR. CASKEY: I guess two comments and/or 5 

## questions. One is a question dealing with do you 6 

## have any feel for what percentage of the fans we are 7 

## talking about are used in another product that might 8 

## already be regulated? 9 

## MR. SMITH: No. We know in great detail 10 

## about the fans that are manufactured many of which 11 

## that go on to other products but we are -- I would 12 

## say our discussions have not focused on -- we haven't 13 

## really paid too much attention truthfully at this 14 

## junction to fans that are embedded and that's 15 

## obviously a very, very important area. 16 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay thank you and sort of 17 

## my follow-up, this is John 18 

## Caskey is that from our perspective it seems like it 19 

## is somewhat of a burden that if we are giving the 20 

## manufacturers of the heating and cooling systems and 21 

## other systems the obligation to meet a certain 22 

## efficiency standard and then we are turning aroundFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## and now we are saying okay some of those components 2 

## within that system need a separate standard, that 3 

## personally concerns me in from what I'm learning I 4 

## really lean towards trying to do standards at the 5 

## system level as opposed to the very specific 6 

## component level and this going forward would be 7 

## exactly the opposite of that so I would be anxious to 8 

## hear what Diane or Kelly or others feel about that. 9 

## MS. JACOBS: Well since I was called on. 10 

## Actually when I first read the rulemaking I assumed 11 

## that it would not cover fans in our equipment and I 12 

## think Title 24 is like that -- that if it is in a 13 

## rooftop unit it's not covered and then through other 14 

## discussions, other people disagreed and I don't think 15 

## it has really been clear that it would be covered and 16 

## we have gone through that with the furnace ban and 17 

## furnaces and all of it works together and it is very 18 

## difficult to optimize one component you know and then 19 

## have to make it work with the other component for 20 

## another goal if you have these targets that you know, 21 

## build on each other. 22 

## So it does make it very complicated and weFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## would be really disappointed if that's how it turned 2 

## out. 3 

## MS. KLINE: I guess I have had the same 4 

## thought. I guess my and I can't think of any 5 

## examples of that, I guess my thinking had been that 6 

## if you were thinking about an appliance standard it 7 

## would cover the appliance at the envelope and as long 8 

## as that product met the standard covering that the 9 

## individual components within it, it could perform how 10 

## they perform so long as the product is at its 11 

## envelope for a lack of a better way to express it, 12 

## you know met the standard that covers it. 13 

## So I do think that would be something that 14 

## would be a concern if that was a -- if we were kind 15 

## of diverging from that concept. 16 

## MR. HAGERMAN: We sort of ran on that rock 17 

## on the pumps question because you have pumps that are 18 

## brand new integrated units that have a drive and a 19 

## control motor associated with and they go out the 20 

## factor door just like that, then you have 21 

## replacements and so the issue becomes in a 22 

## replacement market when you are buying a one off fanFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## to replace in a furnace or area what do you do with 2 

## that product because it is no longer integrated at 3 

## the overall system dynamics and so that became the 4 

## question. 5 

## How do we deal with the replacement market 6 

## which is by far larger than the new market so that 7 

## was why we ended up regulating them in pieces as well 8 

## as the complete component so I think in fans you are 9 

## probably alike in that you will run into that same 10 

## situation where you have got to deal with this issue, 11 

## what do we do with replacement product when they are 12 

## fans in a box, that's it, even though they will go 13 

## into an integrated HVAC quota. 14 

## MS. KLINE: But the distinction being fan 15 

## in a box as opposed to fan in a covered, piece of 16 

## covered equipment. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Well fan in a box it goes 18 

## into that equipment because the existing fan failed. 19 

## MS. KLINE: But not fans sold in the 20 

## equipment? 21 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Not fans sold in the 22 

## equipment initially yeah, so you have to deal withFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## the replacement market somehow because the fan rating 2 

## may not necessarily match what the system design was 3 

## in the original box, the mutally shared equipment. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from the 5 

## DOE. I think with this question we just had about 6 

## you know is this one of the reasons why DOE sees a 7 

## strong benefit in going into a negotiated rule? You 8 

## know we have an put out some draft analysis on a 9 

## subset of fans. One of the things that I think we 10 

## struggle with and we would obviously I think benefit 11 

## from having discussions in a round table format with 12 

## attendees from the industry is how do you actually 13 

## distinguish a fan that goes in a box from a fan that 14 

## doesn't and what do we do and what should we do about 15 

## these different scenarios and let's discuss that 16 

## because right now we don't have a definition of fans. 17 

## We have authority for fans but no 18 

## definition so it's really within DOE's purview and 19 

## ultimately we are hoping what will become a working 20 

## group from you to define what does that look like? 21 

## What is the scope of a definition? What types of 22 

## products are we talking about? What are theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## different streams you know? There are obviously 2 

## those in a box have different considerations than 3 

## those not in a box. 4 

## How do you tell whether they are going to 5 

## be sold into a box? Perhaps some are some aren't so 6 

## maybe customed spec'd to an OEM some may not be and 7 

## they are just coming in. And so I think there's a 8 

## lot of different considerations some of which have 9 

## dealt with the motors and so -- but I think we need 10 

## to hear from the experts in a round table fashion to 11 

## work through some of these stickier issues and so I 12 

## think you are doing the strongest reason from at 13 

## least DOE's perspective to go through a round table 14 

## administrative role. So we are hoping you guys will 15 

## at least think about that. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me just read this 17 

## comment because I think it speaks to what Ashley just 18 

## discussed so on the phone Joe Hootman from Train as a 19 

## member of AMCA and AHRI Train endorses the commercial 20 

## fans and blowers on a rulemaking working group so you 21 

## know they are a person who provides fans so there is 22 

## at least -- and makes fans and so there is at leastFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## some support from one who purchases fans. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: Thanks and my understanding 3 

## is that AHRI did endorse onto a negotiation of your 4 

## written comments, so and of course AHRI members which 5 

## Diane is one and Joe another are having a stake in 6 

## this and I would expect them to be involved in this 7 

## to get that industry that is seeking participation in 8 

## the rulemaking process or in the reg. neg. process 9 

## and I think the analogy to motors John is a good one 10 

## because it challenges an interval horsepower motor, 11 

## it's a covered motor whether that motor is sold as an 12 

## individual part or it goes into something else. 13 

## And whether that thing it's in is subject 14 

## to another standard or not and the motor 15 

## manufacturers have sought that sort of consistency of 16 

## coverage so it is an issue that will have to be 17 

## wrestled with in the context of the reg. neg. and 18 

## that's about the best place to do it. Are there 19 

## other comments on this before we keep going? 20 

## MS. MILLER: Yeah excuse me it's Deborah 21 

## Miller, I just wondered how much time you are asking 22 

## for since this is somewhat complex? A lot of smallFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## details. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: It is complex, there's been 3 

## a lot of -- there is -- it's not a topic that -- it's 4 

## a topic that has been subject to regulation before in 5 

## the context of the APAC equipment but not in context 6 

## of a separate product. 7 

## Do you have thoughts actually on timing? 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And so my personal opinion 9 

## is I think something like three months or so is 10 

## reasonable at least for the first part. We did put 11 

## out a NODA as I said that had some analysis. In 12 

## response to that NODA we did get a lot of feedback, a 13 

## lot of specifically good comments. We do have plans 14 

## to revise that data site so that you guys understand 15 

## and have draft analysis up ready to go in the working 16 

## group, if and when the working group is commenced, so 17 

## I think that will help. 18 

## But for us to say we will have to revise 19 

## as a working group goes along but at least that will 20 

## be a good starting point that it takes into account 21 

## the NODA comments and so I think at least something 22 

## like a three month timeframe is a good one to startFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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### 1 

## off with, to get people going to see out it goes. 2 

## Three months -- but I am of the opinion you could 3 

## probably get it done in three months, unlike 4 

## miscellaneous refrigeration I mean hand test 5 

## procedures are fairly well established. 6 

## There is an industry test procedure, 7 

## people are using them, they do -- there is an 8 

## industry program you know that is run from AMCA it's 9 

## not necessary to offer new products in DOE's 10 

## regulatory world. It is not necessarily it's 11 

## agreement for industry that has data that has 12 

## supplied DOE data, that has been engaging in 13 

## discussion so I think three months is reasonable. I 14 

## don't know I mean DOE hasn't been involved in the 15 

## discussions today but you would have a good sense if 16 

## you think three months is at least enough. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: Well one of the advantages 18 

## that I think of been given a relatively short 19 

## deadline like that is you are saying three months 20 

## report back to the parent committee all right so we 21 

## are not authorizing folks to come out and come back 22 

## in a year right. You give them a pretty short timeFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## frame if they come back and tell us where you are at, 2 

## we hope you will be ready for the term sheet but we 3 

## recognize that you might not be and then we can 4 

## authorize another period of time. I think that would 5 

## be kind of the concept. 6 

## That worked pretty well, we did it on -- 7 

## MS. JACOBS: We have done it on all of 8 

## them pretty much. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: All of them pretty much, we 10 

## have a pattern here of really wanting to not let it 11 

## dawdle. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah and I will say for 13 

## one of the ones that I was involved in earlier this 14 

## week, Ashley from the DOE. We were able to negotiate 15 

## a subset so we sent back like a final term sheet that 16 

## had the majority of issues and we still had a couple 17 

## of other lingering issues that were more complex so I 18 

## mean you could do it in phases if the working group 19 

## decided it had more complex issues with certain types 20 

## of fans or you could keep going with that, it just 21 

## depends on -- but I think that's all for the working 22 

## group and if you get them a shorter timeframe if theyFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## wish to kind of get things going in the right way 2 

## from the outset I found that works well. 3 

## MR. DELAKSI: Other thoughts on timing? 4 

## Any other discussion on this topic? 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so let's put this 6 

## one up for a vote. From what I have heard the ask of 7 

## ASRAC is to form a working group for fans and blowers 8 

## with a streamline window of opportunity to report 9 

## back their findings. So with that general guideline 10 

## do I see any no votes, one question Charlie? 11 

## MR. HON: There was two earlier 12 

## conversations one horsepower and above and a comment 13 

## about 1/8th horsepower and above, what rule would 14 

## that be under? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be the working 16 

## group to figure it out, we don't have a scope -- the 17 

## definition would be set, would be discussed in that I 18 

## think. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And what wasn't mentioned 20 

## before that Andrew went through the process a little 21 

## bit about the term sheet and the NOPR to DOE, this 22 

## ASRAC committee first has to approve the term sheetFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## that comes out of the working group, all right so we 2 

## shouldn't skip that step so we all do get to vote on 3 

## what the working group well not me, you all get to 4 

## vote, Ashley gets to vote, so with that another 5 

## question? 6 

## MR. DELASKI: Ashley gets to vote. 7 

## MR. CASKEY: I'm not sure if it's a new 8 

## vote yet but is it possible to include in the 9 

## directions to the working group if one is 10 

## established, and we specifically ask them to evaluate 11 

## the pros and cons of not regulating the fans and 12 

## blowers that are used in another system such as an 13 

## HVAC system or some other kind of system? 14 

## MR. DELASKI: It might be John and this is 15 

## Andrew is that we don't have to ask that. It is a 16 

## major issue and I would just like to be a specific as 17 

## possible. 18 

## MR. CASKEY: Is there any reason to not 19 

## include that in their direction? 20 

## MR. DELASKI: My inclination would be not, 21 

## I don't know if we have given that kind of guidance 22 

## to our working group yet and I don't want toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## prejudice the working group. I don't think we want 2 

## to have that debate here all right, I think we want 3 

## the working group to wrestle with the issues as they 4 

## affect SME's who are on the working group who are 5 

## selected by us and the Department for the working 6 

## group and there are many issues that we haven't 7 

## discussed that are going to come up and I think this 8 

## issue of you know what's in what's out, that's part 9 

## of what we want the working group to address along 10 

## with task maps and along with levels and if we are 11 

## going to talk designating you have to deal with that, 12 

## our list is going to get pretty long. 13 

## And I wouldn't want to say I particularly 14 

## want you to address this issue. If this issue, 15 

## without going through the other issues that I want 16 

## them to have addressed. 17 

## MR. HAGERMAN: Especially thinking of your 18 

## own experience on the pump issue we spent the first 19 

## three months, maybe four deciding what the scope was 20 

## and then it took a couple of meetings to get into the 21 

## standard after that. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE, IFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## think the first meeting issue is going to be scope it 2 

## always is in all of these and in transformers you 3 

## know we went down the path with what about the ones 4 

## that are in the computer center ones or whatever they 5 

## were so I mean they will come up. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: And we could say we are 7 

## looking for you to address scope test methods levels 8 

## and I would be happy to say that but I don't want to 9 

## just call out just one thing that they have to 10 

## address. 11 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey again and 12 

## as you know the system setting has been on my mind 13 

## for at least two years. You and I have talked about 14 

## and this to me is one of the areas where we can make 15 

## it almost like a test case, you know as we are moving 16 

## forward, not what we have done historically but as we 17 

## are moving forward is there an opportunity for us to 18 

## really put the onus on the manufacturers to look more 19 

## seriously at systems efficiency versus individual 20 

## component efficiencies and this is one example where 21 

## we could specifically ask them to do it and I think 22 

## again my perspective where scope is so critical toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## give them that this is an issue that is on our mind 2 

## going into it I don't see anything inappropriate 3 

## about that and the fact that we identify one specific 4 

## area for them to investigate without identifying the 5 

## other you know 99 things that they need to look at I 6 

## think is okay for me personally. 7 

## MS. JACOBS: I have just one question, not 8 

## a question a statement. Diane Jacobs thank you. So 9 

## the question of the in the box replacement parts, I 10 

## think that in general that once something is 11 

## installed or even once it leaves our factory it has 12 

## the potential to be installed with a certain 13 

## efficiency and a lot of things happen to it after 14 

## that and it may or may not live up to its potential 15 

## so the idea that we have to control the efficiency 16 

## after it's installed it may or may not have been 17 

## operated according to the test procedure assumptions 18 

## and then it breaks and then you go buy something at 19 

## some future date and it seems like such a large 20 

## disconnect from the initial rating of a piece of 21 

## equipment so if we had to figure out -- if we had 22 

## been in some way we were responsible for maintainingFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## the efficiency level of the equipment we manufacture 2 

## throughout its lifetime, I mean I can tell you we are 3 

## not doing that now and it would be I can't even 4 

## imagine how we would do that. 5 

## So the idea that replacement parts have to 6 

## have a certain efficiency level because they might be 7 

## installed in a regulated piece of equipment, to me 8 

## this is like mind-boggling so I guess we have to 9 

## figure out what we are trying to accomplish and 10 

## whether there are bounds on it. 11 

## MR. DELASKI: Diane is that what we found 12 

## what John is saying about systems? 13 

## MS. JACOBS: Right. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: So you just can't be 15 

## responsible for what's happening to the system down 16 

## the road? 17 

## MS. JACOBS: Right, thank you. 18 

## MR. DELASKI: As a manufacturer, 19 

## controlled with coming out of your factory. 20 

## MS. JACOBS: Right, right. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: So it goes back -- this is 22 

## why the system is such a challenge for us to dealFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## with as a program that regulates what a manufacturer 2 

## does. You know we can give the committee some 3 

## direction to consider system opportunities but I 4 

## would want to cast it broadly as opposed to try to -- 5 

## MS. JACOBS: The system is regulated then 6 

## coming back and regulating sub-components because 7 

## they might be replaced at some future date, I mean is 8 

## just so complicated that I don't know -- I could see 9 

## why you might want to do that but it's so 10 

## disconnected and the people who are involved in those 11 

## purchase of replacement parts are so disconnected in 12 

## the application that it doesn't seem reasonable to 13 

## put that restriction on the original equipment 14 

## manufacturer. 15 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah, but that is 16 

## for the group to decide you know and there are 17 

## arguments to be made, you know. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And to your point I think 19 

## you are hearing all the reasons why it will be 20 

## discussed with definity at the working group, there's 21 

## no doubt about it regardless of whether we ask it or 22 

## not it is going to be.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: So do you want to -- I'm 2 

## happy to have if you want to suggest that you want to 3 

## instruct or guide it -- 4 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey with 5 

## NEMA. I guess in an ideal world there would be a 6 

## motion, something to the effect that the ASRAC 7 

## committee if that is not redundant, you know approves 8 

## the creation of the working group for this particular 9 

## area and I would just say in addition to that to 10 

## include in one of the things for them to 11 

## investigation is look at the pros and cons of this 12 

## systems perspective as it relates to fans and blowers 13 

## and the fact that they are often used in some other 14 

## larger system such as an HVAC system. 15 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah I have a 16 

## question. Does that mean that every -- and I'm find 17 

## with it but does that mean that every time now we 18 

## authorize a negotiation that we are going to have to 19 

## go through a series of things that we want to make 20 

## sure that they consider? I mean you may be opening 21 

## up not a Pandora's box but -- 22 

## MR. CASKEY: I think if we as sort ofFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## experts and volunteers coming to this table have an 2 

## opinion on something in the future that the scope 3 

## should include this or not include that I mean we are 4 

## dictating to the time schedule if you will so I'm not 5 

## sure why if a specific area of research or 6 

## consideration should be looked at that we wouldn't 7 

## identify that -- I mean I would think that would be 8 

## part of our job personally. 9 

## MS. MILLER: It's Deborah, has it been 10 

## done before like that, that's what my question is I 11 

## don't know. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: I don't think it has been 13 

## done before. Our directives have been to negotiate a 14 

## term sheet as you see fit to recommend to the 15 

## government right, and then we get resumes that come 16 

## in. 17 

## MS. MILLER: Right. 18 

## MR. DELASKI: Who apply to be SME's who 19 

## have to select. 20 

## MS. JACOBS: So this is Diane Jacobs from 21 

## Rheem and I agree as a person who is rating these 22 

## notices you try to figure out what is going on andFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## should I listen, should I go, I mean should I apply 2 

## -- what is going to be discussed, you know you have 3 

## to justify your travel, it all uses resources and I 4 

## think if we do give people an idea of what will be 5 

## discussed and even why and that you will get better 6 

## participation. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: And we can frame it as 8 

## including but not limited to -- 9 

## MR. CASKEY: Absolutely that's what I was 10 

## going to suggest. 11 

## MR. DELASKI: Either negotiate -- 12 

## Mr. CYMBALSKY: Systems and facts, so let 13 

## me try to take a crack at it. So something like this 14 

## I'm going to paraphrase but hopefully it will be 15 

## okay. So the motion is to form a working group to 16 

## create a term sheet for standards for boilers to 17 

## include discussion or content on the scope and the 18 

## test methods therein, okay? 19 

## MR. DELASKI: I'm not sure the word system 20 

## -- 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: To me scope encompasses 22 

## that but I'll get the word in there somehow.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: Potential system 2 

## interactions. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah something like that. 4 

## MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, that's fine. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay we'll get that in 6 

## there. I get your point and I think we all agree 7 

## it's an important point here so. 8 

## Okay so before we vote I know again Scott 9 

## Harris through his support he can't vote, he can't be 10 

## here. Jenn Cleary is here she had to step out for 11 

## something but she has been listening on her phone and 12 

## she does not oppose the formation of this working 13 

## group so her vote does count. Does anybody else or 14 

## does anybody want to vote against the formation of 15 

## this working group? Okay, seeing none I should 16 

## address the question that came in from the webinar 17 

## that when we say three months what do we mean by 18 

## three months? 19 

## So it's three months from the formation of 20 

## the working group, not three months from today so 21 

## there will be a little delay in getting the working 22 

## group formed and what not but we hope to get theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## notices out as soon as possible. Okay, do we want to 2 

## take a quick break or do we want to -- 3 

## MR. DELASKI: I suggest we take a quick 4 

## break, a five or ten minute break. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay good so it's 10:40 6 

## right now, let's come back at 10:50. 7 

## (OFF THE RECORD) 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay welcome back. This 9 

## is John from DOE. Finishing up the business from the 10 

## fans and blowers working group formation I forgot to 11 

## solicit someone from ASRAC to volunteer to be on the 12 

## working group for fans and blowers so Deborah Miller 13 

## is raising her hand? 14 

## MS. MILLER: Yes. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Anybody else? Diane 16 

## Jacobs? Okay so we have had two before which is fine 17 

## so you will have the pleasure or working with Ashley 18 

## Armstrong as the fan rule person, so that's good for 19 

## fans and blowers so with that we will move on to the 20 

## next topic and I'll turn it over to Andrew. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: Jen do you have a question 22 

## or a comment?Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MS. CLEARY: There was the opportunity to 2 

## talk to ASRAC members that I volunteered for the 3 

## refrigeration. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that was fine, we 5 

## will add Jen Cleary for the miscellaneous space. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: All right the next topic on 7 

## the agenda is commercial package air conditioners and 8 

## commercial furnaces. A letter was emailed around in 9 

## our packet for the meeting, Deborah you probably got 10 

## this one? 11 

## MS. MILLER: I got that. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay from Karim Amrane and 13 

## Steve Nadel, Karim who is here today on behalf of 14 

## both AHRI, Air Conditioning, Heating and 15 

## Refrigeration Institute and Steve Nadel on behalf of 16 

## the American Council for Energy Efficient Economy. 17 

## The letter references some initial discussions that 18 

## have happened between AHRI members and members of the 19 

## Efficiency Advocacy community about negotiated 20 

## rulemaking and jointly recommends that this 21 

## rulemaking be put to a negotiated process. I have 22 

## also participated in some of those private meetingsFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## so I have some direct involvement. 2 

## This rule is one that is required by 3 

## statute, and will make a final rule by statute is due 4 

## by the end of the year correct me if I am wrong. It 5 

## is one that the initial, the analysis done for the 6 

## proposed rule indicate that this is the largest 7 

## saving rule in the history of the Department. It is 8 

## a very large savings opportunity comparing annual 9 

## operation by the agency. 10 

## There are some bigger ones that Congress 11 

## has enacted but if you look at what DOE has done for 12 

## the rulemaking authority it is the biggest savings 13 

## opportunity based on the analysis done to date. So 14 

## in our view it is a very important rule. The 15 

## stakeholders have had these initial discussions with 16 

## full knowledge of what the proposed rules are. This 17 

## is somewhat of an unusual situation because the 18 

## proposed rules have not been published for both air 19 

## conditioners and for commercial furnaces. 20 

## You know this goes back to John's systems 21 

## issue which is that these are two pieces of equipment 22 

## that are in the same box so there is a logic toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## including them in the same discussion of the 2 

## commercial furnace and the commercial air 3 

## conditioners since they are sold in the same region 4 

## providing two functions in many instances. 5 

## It is somewhat unusual that the 6 

## stakeholders who are most active in these dockets 7 

## have come together at this point and asked us to 8 

## approve a negotiated rulemaking once the proposed 9 

## rule has come out but I also think that we have an 10 

## opportunity where you have the major stakeholders 11 

## come together and say look we know what the NOPR's 12 

## are and we have the will to work together to come up 13 

## with a recommendation for a final rule, that speaks 14 

## to me a lot that once you take advantage of that will 15 

## and interest, desire to work together to come up with 16 

## a recommendation and a term sheet that can be used as 17 

## the basis for a final rule with full knowledge of 18 

## what the proposal is from the agency. 19 

## There is also one key factor in this one 20 

## which is back to this notion of the product -- the 21 

## overall product, including both the furnace and air 22 

## conditioner. We heard from industry a strong desireFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## to align the effective dates, that the effective date 2 

## for both products you are going to have to re-design 3 

## the product in response to the standard, let's not do 4 

## it once for the furnace and once for the air 5 

## conditioner that go into the same box so a lot of 6 

## value on the effective date. 7 

## So I think one of the advances of pushing 8 

## this to a negotiated rulemaking is that it enables us 9 

## to tackle them together and come up with a term sheet 10 

## that would then have a consistent effective date 11 

## which may or may not happen through the normal 12 

## rulemaking process. So I think that's an advantage 13 

## of this is that this value which the industry really 14 

## values and which we value because they could actually 15 

## rule out and reduce the costs to comply to order the 16 

## engineering at once and that's a better way to do it. 17 

## So that's my thoughts on this one I 18 

## clearly support this one, I am open to discussion. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. 20 

## So notwithstanding all of the good things that Andrew 21 

## said we may or may not agree with all statements. We 22 

## did have a similar situation with commercial iceFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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### 1 

## makers where the Department had put out a proposal 2 

## and ASRAC was requested to form a working group to 3 

## negotiate a final rule and ASRAC did not approve of 4 

## that on the basis that we don't think ASRAC has the 5 

## DFO for ASRAC. ASRAC is not here to be in lieu of 6 

## the normal rulemaking process that DOE follows so 7 

## that is a notice and comment process. 8 

## So in this case we do have NOPR's out as 9 

## Andrew said with both products. We have had public 10 

## comment on both products and DOE does recognize this 11 

## energy is here so reducing the burden by firing up 12 

## the liberal base and so I see it both ways but I 13 

## think it would be remiss of me not to point out to 14 

## the members here for safety and voting that you know 15 

## there is some precedent to not negotiate the NOPR's 16 

## out. 17 

## Essentially even DOE would be partners in 18 

## negotiation, we have kind of laid our cards on the 19 

## table so just to put that out front that it would be 20 

## sort of unprecedented to go down this path so with 21 

## that I will turn it over to Andrew. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: Comments from the group,Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## Tom? 2 

## MS. MILLER: I have a comment, this is 3 

## Deborah Miller. Even though I know it's not been 4 

## done before Ashley and John having been with the 5 

## trade association that sued the Department you don't 6 

## want to go through that and this is just my own 7 

## personal opinion and especially the study needs to 8 

## have the energy efficiency groups and the 9 

## manufacturers engrained and wanting to work something 10 

## out. 11 

## It's you know, I know it's not been done 12 

## before but perhaps this might be a better route and a 13 

## shorter route. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean we like the idea of 15 

## not being sued. If we could write that into the -- 16 

## (LAUGHTER). 17 

## MS. MILLER: It's a fact of life. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I know, 19 

## interestingly enough I'm glad that you brought that 20 

## up because the manufacturer housing room group 21 

## members on the committee would not actually agree to 22 

## not sue the Department even if they voted yes so IFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## appreciate that sentiment. We actually -- one of the 2 

## reasons that we do this is so that we avoid 3 

## litigation and try to work these things out however I 4 

## think we have had strong support from people 5 

## participating to agree not to sue us even though they 6 

## agreed with the -- 7 

## MS. MILLER: I agree. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So again that again what 9 

## is the Department giving if they don't get that. I 10 

## made that point at the manufacture housing, but it is 11 

## a good point. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Charlie Hon? 13 

## MR. HON: A lot of this sounds similar to 14 

## what was discussed in the last set of meetings I was 15 

## involved with because the HVAC group was involved in 16 

## those as well. Are there duplications crossovers or 17 

## are -- is this objective to reopen additional 18 

## conversation on the same topics? 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So a letter didn't exactly 20 

## speak to you know the full topic but it is my 21 

## understanding that there would be different topics 22 

## that they actually just wanted to negotiate levels inFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## this case. You know, and an analysis behind those 2 

## levels and that basic certification or some of the 3 

## other issues that have already at least in the 4 

## Department's opinion could be put to rest. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: Jen? 6 

## MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary. I think when we 7 

## in the rulemaking where this Committee did not 8 

## approve the negotiation my memory is telling me that 9 

## there was more to it than just the stage in the 10 

## rulemaking process. I thought I remembered an 11 

## element also where both parties were not agreeing to 12 

## want to pursue negotiations, correct me I think I 13 

## remember. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: So that's correct, there was 15 

## a request from the ice maker manufacturer to put it 16 

## to a rec. neg. but it did not have support from 17 

## anyone but the ice maker manufacturers so there 18 

## wasn't a broad recommendation like you are seeing 19 

## today from the first stakeholders. 20 

## And then the other feature that was 21 

## happening there was the Department had made a 22 

## commitment to some additional workshops to help workFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## for the modeling and that analysis helped the final 2 

## rule come out later in the year and challenged and so 3 

## that process seems to have played out. 4 

## MS. CLEARY: And so part of that too was 5 

## that there was no indication that there would be 6 

## agreement for the negotiation? 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Right we didn't have -- my 8 

## recollection is similar to yours that we didn't have 9 

## confidence that it would be tried in a committee that 10 

## would be successful given the lack of broad support 11 

## for the creation of the committee so it seemed a bit 12 

## of a -- which is quite different in this case where 13 

## you have a range of stakeholders suggesting that they 14 

## would recommending the committee so the odds of 15 

## success are higher. 16 

## MS. MILLER: Are you asking for three 17 

## months and do you think I'll ask a question that you 18 

## probably can't answer, do you think there is a high 19 

## probability that you will come to some sort of 20 

## agreement since we are going against what the 21 

## Department usually does in opening up a NOPR? 22 

## MR. DELASKI: I do think that there is aFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## high probability of success based on the 2 

## conversations that I have been involved in. I also 3 

## would just take issue from you earlier that it is not 4 

## unique having advocates and manufacturers to agree, 5 

## we often agree. 6 

## MS. MILLER: We could talk about that. We 7 

## agree a lot after or we would agree a lot after a lot 8 

## of discussion. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: After some discussion right 10 

## so I think that the discussion here is what needs to 11 

## happen and of course the government is involved in 12 

## this discussion as well that's why we do it through 13 

## reg. neg. and the timing on this one I think is 14 

## critical because the government has to comply with 15 

## the legal deadline at the end of the year. 16 

## And so that means and again what we are 17 

## recommending here is a term sheet, it would be my 18 

## hope that the term sheet would become the basis for a 19 

## final rule because there already is a NOPR. It 20 

## depends what the term sheet is because this will be 21 

## an issue for the Department lawyers to figure out if 22 

## a term sheet will require an S NOPR or not. It isFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## something that I would hope that we can avoid because 2 

## it will make it harder to meet the legal deadlines, 3 

## all right. 4 

## So that's going to depend on the term 5 

## sheet, Deborah? 6 

## MS. MILLER: Can you with this Ashley, 7 

## Deborah -- I mean can you and John live with this? 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm sorry, I have a 9 

## question, the Department is unclear. 10 

## MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs and my 11 

## background has been residential and only in the last 12 

## year I have been you know going through these 13 

## rulemakings as they came out and so my understanding 14 

## is new but it seems to be kind of a big jumbled mess 15 

## to me because of the interaction with ASHRAE 90.1 and 16 

## there was an understanding that we are always looking 17 

## to plan and how to allocate our facilities and our 18 

## engineers and we thought that 90.1 would be a 19 

## precursor and then it would become a minimum and then 20 

## you know and there would be this kind of marching 21 

## through a certain process and we anticipated that it 22 

## would be followed, that process and now it is not.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## And I mean there's this kind of paralysis 2 

## about what do we do, are we developing products we 3 

## won't be able to sell or will only be able to sell 4 

## them for a few years and we should be doing something 5 

## more and there is also Title 24 and there is CEE and 6 

## all of these tiers and I mean I couldn't have seven 7 

## lines of commercial equipment to reach all of these 8 

## levels and I think it is something where we talk 9 

## about the basic models and to go back and forth in 10 

## writing we could -- I don't think we will reach the 11 

## same understanding that we were able to in that ASRAC 12 

## working group talking to each other directly. 13 

## So Rheem supports the formation of the 14 

## ASRAC committee for this working group for this 15 

## topic. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think through the 17 

## Department's perspective, you know you heard John say 18 

## at the outset this is kind of new territory. From 19 

## DOE's perspective I think it strongly feels that 20 

## there's a place for negotiations. Obviously we 21 

## strongly support that but at least with the 22 

## Department it's early on. It's not actively that weFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## show our cards and a proposed rule and someone wants 2 

## to complaint to ASRAC. 3 

## That wasn't the intended purpose of ASRAC, 4 

## that wasn't you know there's a lot of people that may 5 

## or may not agree with our proposals for a variety of 6 

## different reasons but we typically would like to see 7 

## negotiations way earlier in the process an engagement 8 

## from all stakeholders earlier on in the process so 9 

## there is some strong concern from the Department as I 10 

## said that people will have to pay attention to until 11 

## after they are over and then all of a sudden they can 12 

## come to ASRAC and say you know take DOE's process 13 

## away we want to negotiate. 14 

## And I'm not saying that's what happened 15 

## here, I'm not saying people weren't involved earlier, 16 

## so don't take that the wrong way but I am choosing 17 

## from the Department's perspective I am going to hear 18 

## on the Committee as to is this an isolated thing or 19 

## are we setting something where we are doing a whole 20 

## new process for you know DOE and then all of a sudden 21 

## people are going to negotiate because the answer is 22 

## not right there and like Andrew said, we weren't sureFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## on the ice makers and we have had people ask about 2 

## other avenues. 3 

## And we do have other avenues to address if 4 

## there are concerns with the analysis we have avenues 5 

## to address data and we are willing to do re-analysis 6 

## and we put that out for comment. There are other 7 

## avenues that the Department has and tools for 8 

## addressing this stuff post NOPR. To me this is the 9 

## right you know, this negotiation committee is the 10 

## right one for this particular and what is why for 11 

## this particular instance. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: John? 13 

## MR. CASKEY: Yeah I think those are all 14 

## good points. I can -- this is John Caskey with NEMA 15 

## and I appreciate those points and DOE's perspective 16 

## and sort of being an outsider on this particular 17 

## issue I don't know if this is done simply with the 18 

## recommendations from the working group is sort of a 19 

## reactive thing where it is like we don't like your 20 

## preliminary answers so we are going to try and 21 

## circumvent that one way or the other so I understand 22 

## that sort of side of the puzzle.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## But the other thing is being involved with 2 

## the transformer work, I know that there was a huge 3 

## amount of discovery and just verifying the models 4 

## that you were using and your consultants were using 5 

## was pretty critical and I know there was a lot of 6 

## open information provided by the manufacturers within 7 

## that process as well as I know there was some 8 

## confidential things done with the manufacturer 9 

## provided DOE sort of cost information and other 10 

## things, confidentially and behind the scenes to make 11 

## the final product as accurate and effective as 12 

## possible so I don't know if you can answer this on 13 

## behalf of DOE do you think the analysis that you have 14 

## done is -- or can be or do you think additional 15 

## discovery of validating where the calculations you 16 

## might have done as well as your costs and other input 17 

## assumptions, could use refinement by doing this 18 

## negotiated process. 19 

## Because from my experience that discover 20 

## was the biggest from the negotiated rulemaking 21 

## process. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So honestly we put forwardFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## what we thought was our best analysis published in 2 

## the NOPR. Sure if someone has additional data we 3 

## would like to validate, I can say the both of us have 4 

## always been at different paths, I think there is some 5 

## value there. We have other avenues to do that, and 6 

## ice makers, that's exactly the exercise we did for 7 

## ice makers, post NOPR we did it through the NODA 8 

## process and the interview process. 9 

## But the key to all of that is people 10 

## coming to the table with data, with analysis with 11 

## good will so like I said I think it goes back to the 12 

## point you know why would this one be isolated? Or is 13 

## this you know turning the table into something that 14 

## is going to become more common practice going 15 

## forward? 16 

## MR. DELASKI: Diane? 17 

## MS. JACOBS: I think this was a little bit 18 

## complicated by the fact that we are switching energy 19 

## metric so the AHRI had developed an integrated 20 

## energy, IEER I don't know what it stands for anymore 21 

## but so to deal with variables in data equipment and 22 

## that aspect of it is new and there's assumptionsFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## associated with that and the interaction between the 2 

## old energy metric and the new one and I'm not sure 3 

## that they -- it's more a matter of choices, the 4 

## manufacturers made versus whether there is a real 5 

## relationship there and there were also issues with 6 

## utilities who were more interested in the EER would 7 

## be more associated with the most energy the equipment 8 

## could use or peak consumption where this integrated 9 

## energy metric has more to do with how much the 10 

## building owner would actually see in consumption. 11 

## So it's complicated and -- go ahead. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: I understand and I agree 13 

## with your concerns actually I share them 14 

## wholeheartedly. I don't think that ASRAC should be 15 

## an appeals court, all right, that's not what we set 16 

## out to be and we shouldn't be an appeals court 17 

## because we don't have the expertise to be an appeal's 18 

## court, right. 19 

## Across the board of all the products that 20 

## DOE regulates, I think you know there are lots of 21 

## things about this particular rulemaking that are 22 

## unusual but that is probably true for everyFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## rulemaking. Everyone has its own little structural 2 

## package of characteristics. 3 

## MS. JACBOS: But this is the largest one 4 

## in history. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: I come back to there's a 6 

## will on the part of the key stakeholders to try to 7 

## make a best effort to move the consensus knowing what 8 

## the NOPRs are and if we don't get that consensus then 9 

## you will issue a final rule as you must by statute, 10 

## and you know but to be able to have the opportunity 11 

## to try to represent this on the biggest rule in 12 

## history is something that I think is extra effort in 13 

## this case given the will of the stakeholders to come 14 

## together and you know that's an unusual fact. 15 

## Back to Deborah's point it's an unusual 16 

## package, I don't think it is going to replicate 17 

## across the board because you are not going to have -- 18 

## I agree with you it would have been better to have 19 

## done this a year ago but we didn't so where do we 20 

## stand today is a will to try to come to consensus and 21 

## I think this should have a pretty short -- it needs 22 

## to have a short life because if we can't meetFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## consensus then you need to get working on the final 2 

## rule which as you know based upon the review time 3 

## that OMB needs to be written in the summer, last 4 

## summer, right. The end of the year publication 5 

## really needs to be written in the summer so we really 6 

## need to get the consensus by June 1st or something, 7 

## it's a tall order. 8 

## MS. MILLER: So this is Deborah so are you 9 

## asking for three months or are you asking for one 10 

## month, what are you asking for? 11 

## MR. DELASKI: Well the clock on this one 12 

## is certainly not longer than the other ones. April, 13 

## May, June -- end of June really to give us three 14 

## months right so I think it's probably three months. 15 

## I think less than three months probably isn't 16 

## realistic right to give less than three, but three 17 

## months is already too much. 18 

## So in this case extension probably won't 19 

## be forthcoming because of the statutory deadline 20 

## which we take very, very seriously. 21 

## MS. JACOBS: Diane Jacobs, I think part of 22 

## it will be that you know we recognize that theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## Department looks at our data when manufacturers do 2 

## provide data that the time is short, that maybe we 3 

## don't understand exactly why things were decided a 4 

## certain way, it might give us a way with the -- you 5 

## know, kind of day to day interaction that we could 6 

## provide data that would be effective instead of 7 

## collecting reams of data that no one can look at. 8 

## So even that short of time I think is 9 

## worth the effort. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: Other comments, Jen? 11 

## MS. CLEARY: Forgive me if this was 12 

## already this is Jen Cleary, forgive me if this was 13 

## already discussed and I just passed over it, just 14 

## tell me and I'll figure it out but can you tell me a 15 

## little bit about the early stages of this rulemaking 16 

## like was the process improvement rule followed for 17 

## example for their -- what kinds of early 18 

## opportunities were there to decide on the negotiation 19 

## input state? 20 

## MR. DELASKI: The process of the rule 21 

## calls for an A NOPR which Congress removed in 1980 is 22 

## that right so the process of improvement rule callsFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## for steps that our Congress eliminated. So there was 2 

## always there, there was a request for information I 3 

## think was the initial stage for this one. There was 4 

## an RFI -- it's a complicated legal history because 5 

## Congress required a new standard. 6 

## Congress and AEMTCA created a new deadline 7 

## for an agency and resulted in a -- 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley with DOE. 9 

## This is a rule for ASHRAE products unlike other 10 

## products it doesn't follow the same guidelines so DOE 11 

## is going to hear the number or issue a determination 12 

## and that's in the statute so it's a little bit 13 

## different here. 14 

## You know so our caution is someone to -- 15 

## although we did all the analyses and the interview 16 

## process and assisting. 17 

## MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen, General 18 

## Counsel. So it's even more complicated than the 19 

## normal ASHRAE product because typically those are 20 

## keyed off of an action by ASHRAE that will trigger 21 

## the Department to act or react to that in a set time 22 

## frame. But in addition to that I point out there wasFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## this old ruling of a requirement which we should look 2 

## at maybe that was imposed in statute. So ASHRAE 3 

## acted to change the metric in the middle of that so 4 

## it is a whole complex statutory mechanism in play. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: Charlie? 6 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, I have a question. 7 

## I hear metric changes in the middle of this. This is 8 

## a very -- shall we say difficult talk to deal with, 9 

## is there any correlation between the old methods and 10 

## the new or are they totally unrelated because of test 11 

## standard change. 12 

## MR. COHEN: It was the ASHRAE change that 13 

## kind of -- this is Dan Cohen. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: They are not completely 15 

## unrelated but are not exactly like a one to one 16 

## relationship either. We are going from a full load 17 

## metric to what I would call a multi-department 18 

## measure so it encompasses the part load but it also 19 

## encompasses other points as well and then we have 20 

## those points all summed up. ASHRAE has had both 21 

## measures for a while, DOE issued an RFI to switch 22 

## over, we can only have this metric for the program soFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## yes we have a test procedure change, we do have 2 

## radios out there with both right now. 3 

## People -- manufacturers are making 4 

## representations of both the full load and the part 5 

## load and so we are moving to that part load so there 6 

## is some data out there at least in the manufacturing 7 

## community. We did some testing and we did a lot of 8 

## modeling and so obviously we could all benefit from 9 

## sitting around the table and talking about data and 10 

## the analysis. 11 

## I don't think DOE ever questions that. At 12 

## any point in time we always benefit from that. We 13 

## like how that works however I guess the question is 14 

## timing more than anything, go ahead sorry. 15 

## MR. CASKEY: Are you sure you are done? 16 

## MR. DELASKI: John? 17 

## MR. CASKEY: I didn't bring my homework 18 

## materials with me but can you tell me again who were 19 

## the people that are supporting this by groups? When 20 

## you say stakeholders, all the stakeholders or a 21 

## majority of them or what? 22 

## MR. DELASKI: Boy dare I say all theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## stakeholders? I don't know all but let's put it this 2 

## way so there have been private meetings and at the 3 

## private meetings that I was at it was AHRI and their 4 

## members, the gamut of efficiency advocates who I work 5 

## with were named in the letter, including my 6 

## organization, Tom's organization, I'm not sorry you 7 

## are not listed here but with energy efficiency 8 

## alliance Tom works with the northwest region and our 9 

## DC save energy, the California investor owned 10 

## utilities. 11 

## In addition the representatives of ARCA 12 

## which is the contractors association expressed 13 

## support in the meeting I was at as did the 14 

## distributors represented by Hardy and they are 15 

## indicated here in the letter as well so pretty broad 16 

## support. I don't know of any stakeholder who in terms 17 

## of those folks who would not, of course this is the 18 

## opportunity, they would apply, additional 19 

## stakeholders could apply. 20 

## MS. KLINE: Just I guess a question and a 21 

## thought and I'm trying to think through the question 22 

## about the timing and the concern about the timing,Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## the rulemaking here and I'm wondering if one way to 2 

## get at it when a request comes to this stage is there 3 

## a list of defined issues that would benefit from a 4 

## consensus negotiation around them as opposed to say 5 

## the rulemaking as a whole? 6 

## You know is there something that is there 7 

## a define and scope that could be you know, maybe more 8 

## limited and focused than you know if there was three 9 

## programs and I don't know the answer to the question 10 

## here I'm just not familiar enough with the specifics 11 

## but I'm wondering if that may be one way to get at it 12 

## and that kind of bridge the concerns on the timing? 13 

## MR. DELASKI: I'm drawing a blank. I 14 

## think that the scope is certainly the scope intended 15 

## by the stakeholders is the basis for a final rule 16 

## that would address standard levels. I don't think it 17 

## was the intention as was earlier discussed to re-open 18 

## certification or re-open basic model, I see shaking 19 

## of the head agreement with what I am saying. 20 

## MS. KLINE: Well then maybe that becomes 21 

## the standard narrowing it to the standard level. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: I know it's complex in termsFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## of the -- but this one is far along right, we have a 2 

## robust analysis by DOE, we have comments that have 3 

## been filed right so we all can read the comments so 4 

## and then the desire then is can we reach a consensus 5 

## on those. 6 

## MS. KLINE: Yeah it just strikes me that 7 

## you know taking into account what the stakeholder 8 

## agreement is to figuring out a way to kind of best 9 

## frame the open. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: Yeah. 11 

## MS. KLINE: The truly open points that 12 

## would still benefit from the consensus negotiation 13 

## might be one way that. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: Right and one of the issues 15 

## I think kind of what Ashley is implying you know is 16 

## that currently what you would do at this point is 17 

## take all of these notes, someone and John and Ashley 18 

## know rules always change with the final rule. 19 

## Analysis always changes right because there is always 20 

## input and they have to consider the input and the 21 

## input results in changes. 22 

## So some of what is happening here that theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## stakeholders are inserting themselves into that 2 

## process or asking to be inserted into that process of 3 

## what are the changes that might make sense you would 4 

## ultimately would influence what we select. 5 

## And ultimately the Department has to -- 6 

## will be having to you know make decisions on how they 7 

## change their analysis or don't change their analysis 8 

## based on the comments in the docket as well as I 9 

## would hope the recommendations of this working group. 10 

## MR. COHEN: So this is Dan Cohen General 11 

## Counsel's Office, so the data that actually creates 12 

## additional complexity here in terms of the timing 13 

## because we do have a proposed rule on the street now. 14 

## We have a closed comment period, we have issues if 15 

## you do negotiate a rulemaking now and in fact typical 16 

## ground rules of the negotiated rulemaking is that we 17 

## promise if there is a consensus to publish that 18 

## consensus as a proposal. We might actually have to 19 

## do depending upon what the analysis leads to, what 20 

## changes occur with the proposal making, you might 21 

## have to do a supplemental proposal which kind of 22 

## takes us all the way back to the beginning with theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## deadline, basically irrelevant we'll never make that. 2 

## The legal complications of coming up with 3 

## a whole essentially a new proposal in the midst of 4 

## and add with the close of the comment period on an 5 

## already on-going rulemaking does create some 6 

## significant legal issues that we would have to figure 7 

## out. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: An ask NOPR is not unheard 9 

## of? 10 

## MR. COHEN: Not unheard of but it does 11 

## again from the time repurposes for the statute, I 12 

## mean there are other ways that we look at doing 13 

## things like a NOPR, like the ice makers is the 14 

## perfect example on that. You know we didn't do a 15 

## supplemental proposal but we were able to put out 16 

## additional data that didn't change the -- 17 

## MR. DELASKI: Right. 18 

## MR. COHEN: The structure that created the 19 

## initial proposal but if you are opening up the 20 

## entirety of that rulemaking which is what you have 21 

## just said in terms of the scope, you know, you may be 22 

## beyond where we were in the situation like ice makersFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## and we may be back having no choice but to basically 2 

## undo everything that was done and start from scratch. 3 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah I have a 4 

## question. Does that mean, I assume that the 5 

## effective date does not change, is that legislatively 6 

## mandated? 7 

## MR. DELASKI: I think you have got a good 8 

## date, this one is T'd off, help me out, T'd off of 9 

## the final rule. 10 

## MR. COHEN: There were changes again the 11 

## complexities of the ASHRAE provision in that case was 12 

## three years from now, from the publication of the 13 

## final. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: Jen? 15 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary. Ashley 16 

## and Dan you have both mentioned you know other 17 

## avenues that the Department could take here so if 18 

## this Committee didn't approve the negotiation do you 19 

## have plans to do that or would that need to be 20 

## requested, you know, how would the time line be 21 

## affected there? 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley fromFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## DOE, you know I think we would be willing to commit 2 

## here if our industry was on other -- you know part of 3 

## the situation to the extent that the Committee 4 

## thought that according to you know detailed areas or 5 

## a public meeting about the tool or you know, I don't 6 

## know exactly what the issues are, however the 7 

## comments or at least all of the issues, I know some 8 

## of them but I would be willing to commit here to 9 

## other change as we have done previously. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: Karim do you want to come to 11 

## the mic? 12 

## MR. AMARANE: I think what's being raised 13 

## in the discussion, Karim Amarane with AHRI, it's the 14 

## fact of what you mean by a tool making here, that DOE 15 

## is willing to act separately which in fact it goes to 16 

## one product. 17 

## And DOE is looking at those tool making 18 

## independently as if one did not even exist so what I 19 

## am saying here is that it makes a lot of sense to 20 

## bring those two together and I think negotiation is 21 

## really the way to do it so that the end product will 22 

## be something that will satisfy fully the heating sideFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## of the product. 2 

## So that's a key fact that right now has 3 

## been missing from the current process. There is 4 

## another issue here, we are talking about furnaces, we 5 

## are talking about AC's which have different cases and 6 

## we would like to bring those two entities together, 7 

## for one product. 8 

## MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from General 9 

## Counsel. There's nothing that prohibits us from 10 

## doing those documents to get those two documents as 11 

## final rules, to get -- we could essentially issue 12 

## them as one big document and we would have to look at 13 

## whether there are any analytical issues you know 14 

## putting it together with having had the analysis work 15 

## together that creates some issues for having to do 16 

## re-analysis but that's an issue we can put out if we 17 

## determine that was the case, we can put out an 18 

## analysis for additional comment but as a legal matter 19 

## we could do those documents together. 20 

## MR. AMARANE: Again this is Karim Amarane 21 

## with AHRI the analysis so far has looked at those two 22 

## separate and I think that's at the table to beFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## combined. I think we could benefit here. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: David? 3 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David Hungerford 4 

## with the California Energy Commission. I am 5 

## concerned about the timing of scope issues that have 6 

## been raised here. I don't see that there's enough 7 

## time to discuss the more active issues that have been 8 

## raised already in additional to the others that no 9 

## one has mentioned. 10 

## In a working group effectively, my 11 

## experience with a working group is that it takes you 12 

## know three months is a very fast time-line after the 13 

## formation of the Committee which means four months 14 

## from now and I don't see how that works with the 15 

## timeline for the rulemaking in the requirements. 16 

## I'd be very concerned that this could 17 

## derail the process in some uncomfortable way and I 18 

## would urge the DOE to look at seeing if they can 19 

## resolve some of the major issues which I presume have 20 

## all been raised in comments and address them in that 21 

## way rather than forming working groups that could -- 22 

## unless there is some way to limit the scope of theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## working group to a few narrow issues, I don't see how 2 

## you discuss the breadth of the issue to find the 3 

## scope of the working group and do the normal working 4 

## group process in this kind of timeframe, that's my 5 

## major concern. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: Let me provide a little bit 7 

## more background which is that the parties have met 8 

## twice privately and are meeting -- have created two 9 

## small working groups that are working tomorrow at 10 

## Berkeley at Labs with the contractor doing the 11 

## modeling okay. 12 

## And then the other one is meeting at the 13 

## end of this month to talk about engineering analysis. 14 

## These meetings are happening privately although the 15 

## union contractors have been invited and are 16 

## attending. So the purpose of doing those meetings 17 

## was to keep to address the timing issues that you are 18 

## addressing so the parties are recognizing their line 19 

## and recommending and are also intending to meet -- 20 

## would like to meet privately in advance of the reg. 21 

## neg. getting formed who are active in the negotiation 22 

## on a private basis.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## Those very reasons to keep momentum and 2 

## recognize the deadlines. I think as a commitment 3 

## those meetings then make a commitment working out a 4 

## consensus and to try to develop that can be the basis 5 

## for a joint recommendation or a NOPR that the 6 

## Department would publish or final rule. 7 

## That timing I agree with you David that 8 

## that's a challenge but I think what you are seeing 9 

## with these meetings going on today and at the end of 10 

## the month is the commitment or part of the commitment 11 

## to meet the time deadline. It strikes me that we had 12 

## a discussion in these private discussions about well 13 

## can we just do this privately do we need to ask for a 14 

## reg. neg.? 15 

## Why can't we just get together in a room 16 

## and work it out like we have before many times with 17 

## AHRI and its members and other appliance 18 

## manufacturers. And the way that discussion went was 19 

## we need the Department in the room with us and the 20 

## Department can't be in the room with us except for 21 

## through this mechanism giving the timing. 22 

## So that was part of the reason to ask forFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## the reg. neg. as opposed to doing privately was to 2 

## have the discussion with the meetings in the room as 3 

## part of the time as opposed to simply someone 4 

## throwing it over the ball at the end of the process 5 

## for what is the biggest rulemaking in the history of 6 

## the agency, it's worth going the extra mile to take 7 

## these extra steps even if time is short to try to get 8 

## to a rule that will be probably supported in the end. 9 

## So my sense is that we should probably try 10 

## to wrap this discussion given our agenda here, I 11 

## guess the questions is you know I think in essence 12 

## here to move from this corner of the room. But I 13 

## don't that will improve our rec. neg. whoever would 14 

## enact these objections right so it would be kind of 15 

## awful right. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't vote. 17 

## MS. MILLER: We should have. 18 

## MR. HON: I have a question as well 19 

## exactly because I have seen this as a 30 day notice 20 

## to bring people in, two months of discussions at best 21 

## we are up to July and there's two months of 22 

## discussions I don't see getting everything done. AndFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## if you are not ready by July could you make it by the 2 

## end of June. 3 

## MR. DELASKI: Well there is an analogy 4 

## here that we had on transformers right, the 5 

## government was actually inviting four contractors 6 

## right, well we were actually trying to write the 7 

## proposed ruling that we were trying to negotiate you 8 

## know, it is double duty right because they have to 9 

## for the contractors, but they did it on transformers 10 

## and it does create significant tension for them 11 

## because they have to be on a double track right. 12 

## They are both trying to support the 13 

## negotiation and are having to meet their own 14 

## deadlines in the event consensus is not reached. 15 

## And on transformers they published the consensus that 16 

## we reached and they published a proposed rule where 17 

## we didn't reach consensus. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think to Charlie's 19 

## point that also reasons -- Ashely from DOE -- the 20 

## real important people coming to the table with 21 

## whatever data, with whatever analysis, with whatever 22 

## you know technology issues from these privateFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## meetings that they are having it should be decided to 2 

## negotiate then it's their right on day one. So I do 3 

## think this order puts an emphasis on that because if 4 

## you come to the first meetings and what data do we 5 

## need we will come back in a month perhaps with that 6 

## data. 7 

## I'm not sure that's really going to work. 8 

## MR. CASKEY: John Caskey NEMA. So I'm 9 

## sort of on the fence additionally but I am also 10 

## confused at the same time. You seem to say that one 11 

## of the reasons to move forward with the working group 12 

## is because DOE can't legally participate with the 13 

## meetings now but in the letter itself it says that 14 

## during DOE believes that the ASRAC blah, blah, blah. 15 

## We invite your representatives from these 16 

## groups including the Department of Energy to attend 17 

## the second meeting and they participate with. So is 18 

## there another vehicle -- it sounds like DOE did the 19 

## analysis, it must be suspect for a variety of reasons 20 

## whether there is a change in the metrics or whatever, 21 

## but it seems that there are people that are sort of 22 

## holding out a little bit, they are concerned aboutFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## that analysis and it seems like the bottom line is 2 

## what should be done is to refine that analysis or get 3 

## the best data available. 4 

## So is there -- and I know there is an open 5 

## hearing process and stuff like that but is there an 6 

## opportunity for DOE to host a meeting and basically 7 

## invite in all the people that are listed here and 8 

## basically hash it out over a one day or two day 9 

## meeting to take advantage of all their knowledge and 10 

## capabilities and still help improve your final result 11 

## because even though you have a NOPR you can still 12 

## change that before its finalized essentially if you 13 

## get information that convinces you that it shouldn't 14 

## be changed. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer to that is 16 

## yes. We have other avenues either you know, public 17 

## meeting, confidential interviews, we have a variety 18 

## of avenues that we could collect data and provide an 19 

## analysis, offer comment. I think you know, my 20 

## understanding of this and I'll make your point is 21 

## that anyone who sees a biased analysis and then have 22 

## a discussion and then at national levels. ThatFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## wouldn't happen in other forums other than that. 2 

## And clearly any data done privately 3 

## through the Department couldn't happen outside of the 4 

## negotiations for sure. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: I may have to leave the room 6 

## for that part of the discussion. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right the Department and 8 

## we could revise acknowledgement sure and we could do 9 

## technical analysis, we could run the different 10 

## scenarios. How do we do that if that is not an 11 

## uncommon practice with us, we did it in energy we 12 

## have done it in other places but it turns out that 13 

## you know, decision making, policy making that would 14 

## be at the table. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE to 16 

## clarify that DOE participating in a meeting, I did 17 

## personally participate in part of a meeting and the 18 

## next day, it was filed. And I left the room for 19 

## quite a bit of time when they started discussing the 20 

## rulemaking so just to clarify that point. 21 

## MR. CASKEY: Then again to simplify this 22 

## in my own terms. The idea is to basically get in aFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## room together, do some analysis and the whole purpose 2 

## for having the working group through ASRAC would be 3 

## then that group could sort of hammer it out a little 4 

## bit more, discuss it sort of without DOE being there, 5 

## coming up with a possibly counter recommendation and 6 

## submitting that back to ASRAC. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So if you form a working 8 

## group DOE would be at the table so you would be 9 

## discussing either a reaffirming proposal or an 10 

## alternative proposal based on whatever hashed in time 11 

## for ASRAC. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: And the proposal could be 13 

## one of the levels that was evaluated in the 14 

## preliminary for the NOPR, it is very common for DOE 15 

## to find a rule different from a NOPR. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 17 

## MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from General 18 

## Counsel. So just essentially John this is between 19 

## the ability to negotiate the recommendation, the 20 

## actual level to come back to the Department as 21 

## something to indicate, as there was a second 22 

## discussion about analysis on data. We could haveFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## those kinds of discussions in open forum but once a 2 

## group is going to talk about creating a consensus 3 

## recommendation to the government we have to go 4 

## through this other legal process under the Federal 5 

## Advisory Committee Act and that's where the process 6 

## comes in. 7 

## Because that's part of the advisory 8 

## committee, you are all here because of the Advisory 9 

## Committee Act and the working group is created under 10 

## the ASRAC which is a chartered committee under the 11 

## Advisory Committee Act. So that's how we deal with 12 

## that and you do have discussion before creating a 13 

## consensus recommendation. 14 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay. 15 

## MR. COHEN: The ASRAC. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: I think we should call a 17 

## vote, go ahead. 18 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David Hungerford 19 

## again. I see the value in bringing DOE in to a round 20 

## table discussion and so I am leaning toward 21 

## supporting this on that basis but I was just 22 

## wondering if there were any kind of legal orFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## processed complications with essentially a 2 

## pre-existing working group asking to be named as a 3 

## working group. 4 

## Because that seems that we have a group 5 

## that has been working together, we want to open up 6 

## initiated rulemaking and the same people presumably 7 

## would want to participate and I wonder if this is a 8 

## legal barrier or a process problem with that. 9 

## MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from the 10 

## Office of General Counsel. We wouldn't just say okay 11 

## that group is a new issue group we would have to go 12 

## through the normal process of creating the working 13 

## group. Now it may end up that many of the same 14 

## people who would be a nominated group, there would be 15 

## the normal process for creating a working group and 16 

## whether it ended up being the same people or not. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: It won't be 100% the same 18 

## but you know some might be the same but not 100% I 19 

## don't think. 20 

## MR. COHEN: But again that would be 21 

## determined through the process that we put out the 22 

## notice of the membership and people could nominateFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## themselves or others and they would have to go 2 

## through the process of actually sorting out who the 3 

## working group is. 4 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah you don't 5 

## have to have 30 days because I have seen notices come 6 

## out where it is like next week. 7 

## MR. COHEN: We -- the statutory 8 

## requirement, we have typically done 30 because -- by 9 

## the time people get the notice. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: 14. 11 

## MR. ECKMAN: A couple of reasons I have 12 

## given the history that we had in the transformers. 13 

## If you are going to narrow it even one level you have 14 

## done some good so we don't have to discuss that. If 15 

## there's a consensus around one level, whatever that 16 

## set is then that's one thing off the table that DOE 17 

## doesn't have to decide and we have agreement on so I 18 

## think there's an advantage to the extent you only 19 

## have a very limited amount of time and you might not 20 

## get to every one of the product classes and agree on 21 

## a level but if you can get to three or four or one 22 

## even its progress compared to where we wouldFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## otherwise be because of the contention on whether the 2 

## analysis supports it. 3 

## So I think there's a benefit in trying 4 

## that, if they don't get any more we are not behind 5 

## them. I don't think there's a -- if you didn't get 6 

## to agreement it's just the parties didn't get to 7 

## agreement and we move on with the regular rulemaking. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay final comments? 9 

## Charlie? 10 

## MR. HON: I would only support this if it 11 

## the timeline is so critical it just bothers me to 12 

## know that this is such a late hour to get this going. 13 

## It's putting the Department in a terrible situation 14 

## which how they make things happen and if it would be 15 

## -- I do not see how we could possibly put the 16 

## Department in a position where if they were past June 17 

## 15th to get this done, have the report back to them 18 

## by June 15th they are not going to be able to do 19 

## their job. 20 

## MR. ECKMAN: Yes I think the harder the 21 

## deadline the better. If they are close to agreement 22 

## they will get there, if they are not all summer longFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## is not going to make any difference. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: So June 15th is the proposal 3 

## for the date, the target date? 4 

## MR. HON: That's it. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: So this is the hard date 6 

## instead of a floating date basically, probably not 7 

## before. It's a floating date, we have some 8 

## publications by June 15th would be the report back. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a hard date, hard 10 

## in a lot of different ways. 11 

## MR. DELASKI: So report back to this 12 

## Committee with a preference for consensus by June 13 

## 15th, okay. John you have been calling the votes so. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you sure you don't 15 

## want to. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: Anyone opposed? 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah so the motion is to 18 

## form a working group around the commercial air 19 

## conditioners and the commercial air furnaces, I have 20 

## mentioned that a lot here so those two rules form a 21 

## working group to talk about standards only for 22 

## certification and other items that have already beenFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## discussed on other occasions. 2 

## And to report a term sheet back to ASRAC 3 

## by June 15th. Do I see anyone voting no? Not even 4 

## DOE voted no, so motion passes. 5 

## MS. MILLER: John it's Deborah I have a 6 

## question. Does that mean it will be meeting June 7 

## 15th? 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Well process-wise 9 

## typically we -- it's a topic we get everybody in a 10 

## room but we have phone calls to discuss it. And then 11 

## I guess we need to get a volunteer from ASRAC. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: I'll volunteer. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Andrew, any others? Okay 14 

## so the DOE lead you will be happy to know is me. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: One other matter -- so 16 

## when we put out the -- as they come out of the 17 

## packages, ASRAC does approve those, we will be asking 18 

## you for a private telecom sometime in the near future 19 

## to get these going to approve the working group, or 20 

## to choose the working group members and discuss them. 21 

## We will catch up with that because you know to the 22 

## extent we do want some of these moving quicker, a lotFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## of that will depend on finding a time in our slot to 2 

## get the actual numbers chosen and then for DOE's 3 

## approval. 4 

## MS. MILLER: The sooner you can get that 5 

## date to us, probably it will be great. 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right so it all depends on 7 

## federal register notices, a number of -- it will be 8 

## two weeks, the number of applicants to sift through, 9 

## we turn those around pretty quickly and I think the 10 

## prioritized list will read that well. 11 

## So the next general item. 12 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: John this is a process 13 

## question. Dave Winningham from Allied Air, the first 14 

## rule says that the comment period is still open that 15 

## stays open, comments are filed? 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: So we are a little bit 18 

## behind in our agenda, we have about an hour left 19 

## until we said we would adjourn and we want to leave 20 

## some time for additional topics and public comment. 21 

## I don't know is 1:00 a hard stop for us? 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: Yes, hard stop, some of us 2 

## should probably try to adhere to that so we are going 3 

## to have to make up some time since we are running an 4 

## hour behind schedule. But next up on the agenda is 5 

## for DOE a discussion of regulatory review activities. 6 

## MR. COHEN: And this is Dan Cohen I will 7 

## make up time. I want to pass out papers as we are 8 

## passing this around, when I found out this morning 9 

## that there was going to be a special guest in the 10 

## building and the 8th floor towers, where I thought we 11 

## were in the 8th floor towers, I thought he was coming 12 

## to this meeting. 13 

## It didn't work out that way but if he knew 14 

## that we were talking about this he might so if this 15 

## comes up, this is the Presidential initiative that 16 

## really started back in 2011 when it was -- and just 17 

## this week they announced a reinvigoration over a 18 

## phase 2 I guess the idea of doing is the idea is that 19 

## we should all be, as you mentioned, the regulation is 20 

## to determine you know what may be outdated or should 21 

## go away, what needs to be revised and what new 22 

## regulations need to be and what is the issue.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## So what I just sent around to you is a 2 

## blog from -- sort of describing this step two, phase 3 

## two of this issue as well as the Department's 4 

## retrospective review that was posted on Tuesday as 5 

## well and then the screen shot of the page that we 6 

## have already created and we have been operating since 7 

## this initiative started in 2011. 8 

## And what you will see there is that they 9 

## posted out our various reports and plans and 10 

## activities and we have also done a series of requests 11 

## for information to seek from the public of nominees 12 

## or ideas of topics what we should be looking at to 13 

## address. 14 

## And for the second round or for round two 15 

## this phase two of this retrospective review we were 16 

## all asked to think about public engagement and we 17 

## said we're fine, that we have been doing public 18 

## engagement because we had these different, probably 19 

## the next many of you in this room have participated 20 

## by sending comments in that we have taken into 21 

## account in our plans and our activities. 22 

## But the following will create new andFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## different and we came up with the idea that that was 2 

## one that no one else would come up with. And we 3 

## would like to do something we have this committee 4 

## that exists to advise us and make recommendations to 5 

## us with the appliance standard code, so why not ask 6 

## you to think about this. 7 

## Think about ways we can engage with the 8 

## public in fact go out and do something with the 9 

## public that you can then contemplate as activities 10 

## for you to take here and give recommendations and 11 

## maybe use those recommendations as we go through this 12 

## round two of the initiative process. 13 

## I can talk more about this, you can think 14 

## about it and we can have a follow up discussion about 15 

## it but essentially as we would like to talk ASRAC to 16 

## in addition to the work that we are doing to do work 17 

## to come up with ideas, thoughts and ways to interact 18 

## with the public and then make recommendations back to 19 

## us, that's a half an hour of discussion unless you 20 

## want to talk more about it. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: So maybe the thing for us to 22 

## do, this is Andrew again, is to take on board whatFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## you have shared with us today and you know think 2 

## about how we as a committee could contribute to this 3 

## and then we can have a full discussion perhaps at our 4 

## next meeting and the scope here is around the 5 

## agency's regulatory activities for standards because 6 

## that is what this committee is about. 7 

## MR. COHEN: That's correct and you will 8 

## notice as you look at this plan you will notice there 9 

## are other aspects of the department where that is not 10 

## the only regulatory activity of the program of the 11 

## Department but it is going to look at the -- 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Nuclear savings. 13 

## MR. COHEN: Well the first one you will 14 

## notice is about exports of nuclear technology and we 15 

## all think you really need to go into that topic. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: All right any other 17 

## questions for Dan. 18 

## MR. CASKEY: You probably said it but I 19 

## missed it so what is the schedule that you want some 20 

## ideas to act on? 21 

## MR. COHEN: We want you can talk about 22 

## that, obviously this initiative is going on, theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## whole idea is to keep it as an ongoing thought not to 2 

## have it be and you will see that in the Shelanski 3 

## blog that it is not six months and then we forget 4 

## about this, it is an ongoing process so this is the 5 

## first time I am bringing this to you now so you need 6 

## to think about it and then do some activities as 7 

## determined by you all. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so what I think 9 

## Andrew suggested was at the next meeting we will put 10 

## it on the agenda for six months or whatever, 11 

## hopefully by that time you will have had a change to 12 

## share some of your ideas. 13 

## MR. DELASKI: Other questions on this 14 

## topic? The next topic on the agenda is standards 15 

## under development and other relevant issues. So at 16 

## times we have used this agenda block to talk about 17 

## other items, other products that might be appropriate 18 

## from down the pike for a negotiated rulemaking. 19 

## We have also used this block of time 20 

## sometimes to discuss cross cutting issues and I guess 21 

## I would want to use this time now to raise other 22 

## issues. I have an issue that I hope to raise but IFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## also want to give others a chance to do so, so as not 2 

## to monopolize the time, but we can go to other topics 3 

## you want to raise, Tom? 4 

## MR. ECKMAN: For falling on to the 5 

## regulatory burden and process one of the issues that 6 

## I have raised before and it's related to several that 7 

## have been raised is getting out in front of the test 8 

## procedures with collecting the data so we have those 9 

## done before we start rulemakings and I think that's a 10 

## cross cutting question with respect to all rules and 11 

## to the extent that there's a way to get those 12 

## schedule and the data collection necessary to get to 13 

## the fundamental information necessary to move forward 14 

## with the test procedure and inclusive of the 15 

## fundamental input to the economic analysis which is 16 

## the duty cycle, how much energy would this thing use 17 

## and how often? 18 

## It seems to me that regardless of 19 

## rulemaking we tend to run those now in parallel to 20 

## the standards and process and that creates a burden 21 

## both on manufacturers and on advocates and on anybody 22 

## else participating because we don't know what theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## answer of the test procedure is before we try and 2 

## figure out what the levels are and that just doesn't 3 

## cycle right with me so to the extent that this 4 

## committee or DOE can move forward to address that as 5 

## part of this initiative it seems to me we have got in 6 

## my mind a high priority task to work on. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Jen? 8 

## MS. CLEARY: I wholeheartedly agree with 9 

## everything you have said and I think it should be a 10 

## priority because it's hamstringing us on renewables 11 

## and I think it's creating some questionable analysis. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Deborah? 13 

## MS. MILLER: Deborah Miller, this was 14 

## something we had talked about how many years ago 15 

## fifteen? It has always been a problem and I guess 16 

## the issue is you and I have with DOE is that it or 17 

## are there other issues that seem to come up. What do 18 

## you define as really the majority of issues that 19 

## prevent this from happening? 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think there's a few, 21 

## we haven't been necessarily a resource constraint 22 

## much in the last couple of years. The good news isFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## that may change very soon you never know but we did 2 

## have issues with survey type work frankly. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right I mean to follow on 4 

## this, this is Ashley. One of the requirements if we 5 

## send out, if we would just try to get questionnaires 6 

## out to get responses from the field from more people 7 

## it triggers its own type of review process for us. 8 

## And I think we can all appreciate what comes along 9 

## with that and so that's one of the hurdles DOE has 10 

## for initiating itself. 11 

## Now that being said certainly Tom I can 12 

## give you my test procedure schedules, I can even give 13 

## you the areas where I think that data would help the 14 

## most. Looking five years out and DOE wouldn't be 15 

## initiating a survey as well but could work with 16 

## people to potentially highlight areas where two big 17 

## efforts by outside parties would be most helpful and 18 

## the timeframe for which they would be most helpful. 19 

## DOE initiating a survey itself though 20 

## brings in a whole lot of process with it and I'm not 21 

## sure anyone is seeking. 22 

## MR. ECKMAN: No, I'm not pushing for thatFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## I'm pushing for the later but we have got something 2 

## in the headlights that says by such and such a date 3 

## we are going to start revising this test procedure. 4 

## We know backing up from that we need two years' worth 5 

## of data collection or six months for the data 6 

## collection to answer these following questions and 7 

## letting the industry and the advocates know what 8 

## these areas are so we can march our forces together 9 

## and figure out how to address that really gives us 10 

## some idea of what your lead times are and that would 11 

## really benefit us to know what's an issue and what 12 

## particularly if you identify the issues, what you 13 

## think our data is not a very good foundation of 14 

## information. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Personally I think I could 16 

## do that in a day. 17 

## MR. ECKMAN: I'll look for it in an email 18 

## Monday. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: She didn't say which day. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: For a lot of people for a 21 

## variety of reasons. You know that's not an issue, we 22 

## have our schedules and I know what comments you wouldFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## want and I know the areas where we could benefit from 2 

## having inventories data so I don't think that's too 3 

## hard to ask. 4 

## MR. DELASKI: What strikes me and this is 5 

## one topic and there are a few others that have come 6 

## up in our prior meetings. I went through the NODES 7 

## that Jeremy circulated beforehand which I appreciate 8 

## from all of our prior meetings. Another topic came 9 

## up in our prior meetings and what strikes me is that 10 

## we as the parent committee could take on some of 11 

## these tasks more directly as the ASRAC committee, 12 

## they are cross-cutting topics. 13 

## So so far our work has been to approve 14 

## working groups and then to come back and approve 15 

## their product and that's been okay that's actually 16 

## worked pretty well, we have approved four working 17 

## groups as a Committee and each one of those we have 18 

## selected pretty well, each one has reached a 19 

## consensus which has then been the basis for a 20 

## proposed rule so we have a pretty good track record. 21 

## We have tabled a couple of topics that 22 

## came before us, one was on C&I labeling early on andFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## we tabled it. One came back in December, the one on 2 

## characterization of equipment and was tabled. So we 3 

## have also set aside a couple of things but we have 4 

## also had these sort of open discussions on these 5 

## kinds of topics like best method development and 6 

## doing it in a kind of way that we have not really 7 

## wrestled with as a committee. 8 

## So it strikes me that these are things 9 

## that we don't want to create working groups for this 10 

## one, but rather we as a parent committee given that 11 

## we have got a bunch of experts here who have brought 12 

## representation from different industries and from the 13 

## advocacy world, from state government, from the 14 

## utility sector in Tom's case that are -- can help to 15 

## address some of these issues. 16 

## As I went back through the notes if you go 17 

## back to the working group topic history that was 18 

## circulated, it has also given us I think as a handout 19 

## here today, if you go to the very first item there, 20 

## common expectations of ASRAC there were five items 21 

## identified as being our common expectations. 22 

## Developed creative cost solutions and energy savingsFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## and opportunities. 2 

## Number two create an understanding of how 3 

## standards affect other agencies. Validate modeling, 4 

## streamline rulemaking efforts and be sure to focus on 5 

## developing outcomes that DOE can actually utilize to 6 

## promote U.S. manufacturing while negotiating a key 7 

## focus of the committee might be able to help. 8 

## So this is pretty broad but these rules 9 

## are sort of broader chargers and I think that we 10 

## really haven't -- we've addressed it through some 11 

## specific negotiations but we haven't addressed these 12 

## broad cross-cutting concerns and what I would like us 13 

## to do is to think more about it and to challenge 14 

## ourselves to how can we play our role as an advisory 15 

## committee to provide some advice on some of these 16 

## topics. 17 

## Some of the items as I went back through 18 

## the notes on the plane ride down today other topics 19 

## that had come up in some of our previous discussions 20 

## included the timing of DOE reviews, the DOE and 21 

## historically was resource challenges as we just 22 

## referenced and as a result fell behind on theirFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## schedule but since 2007 there's been a tremendous 2 

## effort to catch up and the agency has caught up on 3 

## their legal deadlines and the state of rest of their 4 

## legal commitments and to the point today where they 5 

## are actually doing rules that are in their authority 6 

## but not in the requirement which you think of as 7 

## deficiency proponents as a good thing. 8 

## There are limits on DOE's timing so within 9 

## their legal constraints how do they stage things, how 10 

## do they time things and this discussion is coming up 11 

## I think for various products and I think the timing, 12 

## the fact of the expectations in timing, Diane made a 13 

## point earlier as well, it strikes me as a topic that 14 

## has come up a couple of times in our ASRAC 15 

## discussions that might merit some focus by this 16 

## committee. 17 

## Another one that has come up has been 18 

## systems. John and I volunteered to come up with 19 

## something on the systems and we didn't make any 20 

## progress, we didn't even talk. So it strikes me as 21 

## something that we should take on as a committee DOE 22 

## has made some progress on thinking about how can theyFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## develop standards, pump standards as an example that 2 

## attempt to tackle it and extended product. 3 

## It's not a system per se but it is a step 4 

## in that direction so can we as a committee think 5 

## further about how we capture, how do we want to own 6 

## one, John's bad idea, it was more than just John's 7 

## bad idea obviously a big opportunity. 8 

## Another topic that has come up repeatedly 9 

## has been the issue of field energy consumption versus 10 

## you know the testing consumption and back to this 11 

## issue of look back are we doing anything to go back 12 

## and validate what actually happened? Did we actually 13 

## get the savings that we thought we were going to get 14 

## and do the field -- how do the field numbers match up 15 

## with what we are expecting and are we doing enough 16 

## work to gather data on field energy consumption and 17 

## actual performance? 18 

## There are others, I have others on the 19 

## list, others let me go back to the notes here that 20 

## are cross-cutting so it strikes me that we what I 21 

## want to ask the committee is there a will to try to 22 

## identify some of these cross-cutting issues that weFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## might be able to work on collectively and ultimately 2 

## make some recommendations and offer some advice as to 3 

## the agency on how to tackle some of these topics. So 4 

## I would like reaction to that as a general concept 5 

## and also what else would you put on the list for 6 

## things for us to work on? 7 

## MS. KLINE: Yeah, I think your list is 8 

## very good and I guess I would just add one and maybe 9 

## build off maybe one of the ones we heard a little bit 10 

## earlier. I love the idea of long term calendar I 11 

## think that has a lot of potential and you know the 12 

## test procedures would be one facet of it because you 13 

## could envision, you know, just having you know, a 14 

## long term map of each product category that happened 15 

## to be ready with their you know, negotiated solution 16 

## that they needed one by x date right. 17 

## But also just in terms of the standard 18 

## levels. I think that to the extent that we can allow 19 

## at the trade association level or at the category 20 

## level kind of thinking around classes of products and 21 

## maybe even you know, negotiated solutions around you 22 

## know, major appliances as a whole over the next fiveFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## years for instance, or lighting products as a whole 2 

## over the next you know to the extent you can group 3 

## things and think about them in categories. 4 

## I think there might be a lot of 5 

## efficiencies there from the person's perspective, 6 

## from manufacturer's perspectives, because there could 7 

## be a lot of certainty, there could also be the 8 

## ability to make trade-offs among products that you 9 

## would not otherwise get and I think you know there 10 

## might just be a lot of you know a lot of ability to 11 

## cut down of a lot of the regulatory burden between 12 

## here and there if we were able to take a longer term 13 

## view and look at that as something that we could 14 

## really think about more in terms of a package 15 

## perspective and how do you get ready now for the next 16 

## five or eight years. 17 

## So I would just encourage us to you know 18 

## take a look at a calendar and do some thinking about 19 

## you know are there opportunities to be more or just 20 

## efficient at how we approach this at day 1. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: Diane? 22 

## MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs fromFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## Rheem. Yes I would be very excited if we did more. 2 

## I have been calling in to the ASREC meetings and it 3 

## seems like most of the activity is in the working 4 

## groups and but I think there is a lot of work to do 5 

## on this level. One thing that has really confused me 6 

## is the interaction with the ASHRAE, I mean I have 7 

## been on the ASHRAE 103, God 2000 I think so 15 years 8 

## and we just had a NOPR and next week we are talking 9 

## about furnaces and there is contractors from DOE on 10 

## the ASHRAE 103 and they are part of those discussions 11 

## but then when the NOPR comes out they take a few you 12 

## know, some sections, some other sections and it's 13 

## hard at work to explain to people that they actually 14 

## think that we are supposed to -- we are testing the 15 

## ASHRAE 103 and I keep telling them it is the federal 16 

## register that is important. 17 

## Actually so this whole interaction with 18 

## other organizations and how things are adopted and 19 

## it's confusing to you know we are trying to follow 20 

## all the rules and I just know from talking to other 21 

## manufacturers that there's different interpretations 22 

## and actually the furnace rule is kind of crazyFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## because there is like thirty pieces of data and 100 2 

## pages of calculations and right now we are using a 3 

## program that was developed for it by it and I don't 4 

## know that anyone is developing the new program so we 5 

## are all going to rewrite our own programs in four 6 

## tran and I don't know how it will end up. 7 

## So just kind of on the practical view how 8 

## many factors comply with these regulations and how do 9 

## we do it so it is a level playing field, thank you. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So just a follow-up, I 12 

## actually somewhat completely agree with you Diane but 13 

## for different reasons. You know we struggle here 14 

## when we get, when we are triggered to do test 15 

## procedures and impact review and industry standards 16 

## and the intention was never necessarily to modify 17 

## language but typically we modify a language because 18 

## we find issues while testing. 19 

## We have done our own testing or you guys 20 

## come to us with questions so I don't know how to 21 

## solve that if we possibly do but a lot of 22 

## modifications remain aren't just because we want toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## it's because we have to, we need to. Or and there 2 

## are things I have seen at ASHRA or other places and 3 

## also they didn't get adopted for whatever reason but 4 

## the Department has to do certain things a certain 5 

## way. 6 

## So obviously I am all ears as far as a 7 

## better process or a better way to do that but you are 8 

## going to see us make some changes for a variety of 9 

## different reasons and we do test actively. My inbox 10 

## alone probably gets 15 plus questions a day, a lot 11 

## and so people don't think about when they are writing 12 

## test procedures but they do think about them when 13 

## they start using them. 14 

## MS. JACOBS: I completely agree with you 15 

## Ashley and I just put myself you know in your 16 

## position and what would I do and you know I can't 17 

## really complain with anything that you are doing it's 18 

## just, it's just a mess and we are actually testing 19 

## today it's to a standard that was written in 1993 -- 20 

## one came out in 2007 which is pretty long ago and it 21 

## wasn't adopted and I mean it's just confusing and 22 

## hard to -- hard to follow.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## It's hard to do a good job for anyone who 2 

## is involved. 3 

## MR. COHEN: So this is Dan Cohen and I 4 

## just have two things on that one. First I would say 5 

## that is not an issue that is really limited just to 6 

## ASHRAE. That comes up in fact, we ended up in the 7 

## Fourth Circuit with NEPA actually on which version of 8 

## a particular test procedure that specified in the 9 

## statute is the required version to use we ended up in 10 

## court on it so it comes up fairly regularly. 11 

## The other thing that I would say is there 12 

## is a distinction there between the test procedure and 13 

## the standard right because the standard is that whole 14 

## as I mentioned earlier, the ASHRAE provision of APCA 15 

## with respect to the standards may be the most complex 16 

## provision in the statute of complex provisions. 17 

## And is a statute only and we argue about 18 

## it all the time, it is intentionable. 19 

## MS. JACOBS: So you are talking about 90.1 20 

## right? 21 

## MR. COHEN: Yeah. 22 

## MS. JACOBS: Okay.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. COHEN: Correct, and that's the other 2 

## thing we don't actually vote in ASHRAE right so 3 

## people are there but the DOE folks are in the room, 4 

## we don't vote and we partly don't vote because ASHRAE 5 

## and it's not only just the appliance standards, it's 6 

## also on the building codes side, because under the 7 

## building code provisions, there's a different status. 8 

## We actually have an obligation to make a 9 

## determination about the energy efficiency upgrade for 10 

## a particular amendment to 90.1 or ICC, and it states 11 

## after that and reacts to so we deliberately don't 12 

## want that, we have a statutory obligation to act 13 

## after ASHRAE per the manual. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: ICC. 15 

## MR. AMARANE: ASHRAE and the DOE has ruled 16 

## with ruling on all the proposals that comes out of 17 

## the ASHRAE all the levels. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Not the levels. 19 

## MR. AMARANE: Not the levels, I can hope 20 

## that you are correct but I think I have seen those -- 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We are correct. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: John?Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure going back to your 2 

## original question I think the list of topics that you 3 

## had I think is a great list, it's a good starting 4 

## point. I would personally be happy to do whatever I 5 

## could to move any of those topics forward. I am 6 

## particularly interested with the system they are in. 7 

## And the reason for that just is you know 8 

## what I see from the manufacturing side of this with 9 

## transformers as well as lamps and some other issues 10 

## it seems like we are getting near the top of sort of 11 

## the bang for the buck in terms of going to that next 12 

## percentage efficiency improvement it's just a huge 13 

## amount of money to improve it beyond where it is and 14 

## that's one of those things that came up recently 15 

## related to EPA and looking at an Energy Star Program 16 

## related to distribution transformers and it's hard to 17 

## develop a program without going beyond what's going 18 

## to be the law in 2016 and I sort of see that first 19 

## hand and that leads to sort of my other issue. 20 

## And that really deals with I don't know 21 

## how to describe it -- like cash for clunkers, but the 22 

## idea is that there is a lot of poor efficientFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## products out there and as we increase the efficiency 2 

## regulation then thereby the cost for some of these 3 

## products is sort of indirectly you are sort of 4 

## rewarding young owner and operator of that old device 5 

## whether it is a motor or transformer or whatever, you 6 

## are almost sort of rewarding them to rebuild it or 7 

## repair it or try and stretch it out to that "nth" 8 

## year as opposed to investing in something new today 9 

## because the capital cost of that new high efficient 10 

## thing is so much higher than an older device. 11 

## Just to investigate that seems there is 12 

## another way around that, to see if there is another 13 

## way we can incentivize people to get rid of that you 14 

## know second refrigerator in the garage or that less 15 

## efficient for a utility to go to a less efficient 16 

## transformer than they might otherwise do because just 17 

## looking at the simple cost effectiveness we have got 18 

## a pretty high priced new transformer you know and 19 

## when you are looking now to rebuild the old one or 20 

## something like that it makes that rebuild option a 21 

## little bit more cost effective. 22 

## Just so if there is a way I don't know ifFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## it is subsidies or whatever it is but at least to 2 

## investigate that issue of how do we get old really 3 

## poor inefficient products sort of out of people's 4 

## garages and out of people's homes and out of 5 

## businesses and things like that and replace it with 6 

## hopefully new higher efficiencies before it's 7 

## absolutely the thing has died and we have just got to 8 

## replace it. 9 

## And you know another point that is 10 

## spinning off of that, I don't know how many people 11 

## here think about the internet fittings and how 12 

## everything is connected and stuff going forward and 13 

## that is something that I certainly think about a lot 14 

## and unfortunately I didn't absolutely need to but I 15 

## went ahead and replaced my air conditioner and heater 16 

## recently and got a WIFI compatible thermostat so now 17 

## I can talk to my people in the cooling system while I 18 

## am on the road which is a big advantage so if I leave 19 

## the house and forget to turn it down, I can turn it 20 

## down remotely and you know some people think that 21 

## simple investment is a lot more value for the car 22 

## than if I go on from a 19 CEER or a 20 CEER relativeFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## to that air conditioner just trying to get it off -- 2 

## trying to turn it off you know to minimize the duty 3 

## cycle whenever I can, particularly when I'm not in 4 

## the room anymore. 5 

## MS. MILLER: Andrew this is Deborah 6 

## Miller. I just want to and in fact I think these are 7 

## all great discussions and I think your list is very, 8 

## very good and I'm trying to come up with things once 9 

## we think about it but from a process standpoint I 10 

## would encourage us to prioritize and set deadlines, 11 

## just like we are doing for these negotiated groups. 12 

## Because as you said, you know you didn't 13 

## get together because there was no deadline, so that 14 

## is what I would suggest and prioritization is key 15 

## because people you know this is people's sort of 16 

## second job so we need to know what the priorities are 17 

## and what the timeframe is. 18 

## MR. DELASKI: Charlie? 19 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Another 20 

## thing that we really need to consider that was our 21 

## company brought to the White House a few months ago 22 

## is the fact that we are getting more and moreFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## interagency issues developed because in today's world 2 

## in refrigeration and air conditioning and all the EPA 3 

## SNAP program is becoming more and more prevalent in 4 

## energy efficiency. 5 

## They are getting to slightly flammable 6 

## refrigerants, fully flammable refrigerants, all of 7 

## which get to the energy efficiency of a product and 8 

## that's a big issue right now as far as the analysis 9 

## that went on for the 2017 rulemaking is the 10 

## efficiency advantages of some of the new 11 

## refrigerants. 12 

## The problem is that we still have now put 13 

## cross governmental communication and discussions as 14 

## far as how do we get these products into market 15 

## faster because there are lots of fed, state and local 16 

## building codes which prohibit them even though the 17 

## federal government says okay you can build these and 18 

## they are really efficient. 19 

## Marketing the product into local code is a 20 

## problem and the energy -- and the SNAP group has a 21 

## committee working right now that is looking at how to 22 

## accelerate the secondary legal issues of theseFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## products because they have a major impact on the DOE. 2 

## And how do we cross these governmental lines to make 3 

## them work faster? 4 

## MS. JACOBS: This is Diane Jacobs I would 5 

## add Energy Star programs from the EPA and the federal 6 

## trade FTC with the energy buy labels. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You would be surprised at 8 

## how often we talked to all of those people. I can 9 

## show you email from SNAP yesterday. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: Yeah and that kind of raises 11 

## the question for me or raises a point for me which is 12 

## that so if we are going to play our advisory role we 13 

## need to understand what is to apply, right. What's 14 

## the baseline right? And I think we don't fully 15 

## understand what the baseline is or we don't know we 16 

## went to SNAP yesterday. So that might be, coming out 17 

## of this meeting are there some things that we want to 18 

## ask of the program that they can report -- provide 19 

## this information back at the next meeting so that we 20 

## then can think about back to Deborah's point about 21 

## the prioritization. 22 

## Okay well actually they are doing fine onFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## this SNAP coordination despite what they thought, 2 

## they are actually coordinating and we don't even 3 

## touch that one but maybe on this test method 4 

## sequencing thing that's something where Ashley could 5 

## give us the schedule and we can provide some 6 

## feedback. 7 

## And the other question on test methods 8 

## from Diane's point is a need for a better 9 

## understanding on this committee's part, what is the 10 

## process that you do to make those changes. We aren't 11 

## going to today but if we had that in a form that you 12 

## know written form that we could share -- 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: If we had a written form 15 

## that might be a way for us to begin to think about 16 

## okay so how could we provide you our collective 17 

## feedback and advice on how it could be improved. 18 

## MS. JACOBS: So this is Diane and you know 19 

## I might be coming across as very confused but the 20 

## other thing is this back sliding, when that comes 21 

## out, back sliding so you are changing your metric. 22 

## How do you know if you are back sliding or not?Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MS. MILLER: It's a statutory issue. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: We're not. 3 

## MS. JACOBS: I didn't say anything. 4 

## MR. DELASKI: It is tested for and the 5 

## agency lost so. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We had for individual 7 

## products so we are obsessing when we change test 8 

## procedures but this does get to a point where you 9 

## know when industry changes a test procedure out of 10 

## state sometimes when we change test procedures we 11 

## have to sync up with standards for a variety of 12 

## reasons and so there are reasons that our compliance 13 

## data may be a little different or lack behind the 14 

## output the industry has. 15 

## We talk about the considerations that are 16 

## in the additional rules, but sure I can write up a 17 

## like process of things we think about first. 18 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: In the schedule that Tom 20 

## mentioned earlier -- what would that include, what do 21 

## you -- 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So what I hear him ask forFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## is actually what test procedures is DOE going to do 2 

## over the next say five years and of those test 3 

## procedures which ones do you really think consumer 4 

## usage data -- which one could really benefit from 5 

## consumer usage data? 6 

## Clearly most if not all could probably 7 

## benefit for some but if I were to prioritize on my 8 

## own what would those be, what DOE would it be and 9 

## then you guys can have a discussion to agree or 10 

## disagree with me. 11 

## MR. ECKMAN: Yes I think identifying is it 12 

## uses or is it some other input in the equation that 13 

## you use, whatever it is, is it moving cycle or some 14 

## other counts per cycle, how many make it to the 15 

## clothes dryer from the clothes washer, those are 16 

## inputs to a calculation downstream and we have sparse 17 

## information on fairly large input. 18 

## MS. KLINE: And if I might add to that, I 19 

## don't know if it would be too much of a burden but to 20 

## also include the standards piece there too because I 21 

## think you know that was where I was trying to go with 22 

## being able to look at that holistically over a longerFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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### 1 

## view I think that would be a benefit. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: So the calendar as it is 3 

## today -- again you guys can see the schedule that is 4 

## in the repertory agenda that goes back a couple of 5 

## years right. 6 

## MS. MILLER: Yeah but that changes. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Right so is there another 8 

## schedule that can be shared? I mean obviously 9 

## there's schedules -- demand a certain schedule. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what you are going 11 

## to see. A regulatory schedule is the statutory 12 

## schedule. What you are going to see is it is going 13 

## to go a little bit further out years wise. The 14 

## regulatory does have weekends off more or less and 15 

## what you are going to see is that we might be taking 16 

## off the next year or two as well. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay. 18 

## MR. COHEN: And the various input 19 

## obviously we will update that as we go through our 20 

## schedule. The dates that are in the agenda are our 21 

## working dates. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm guess you don'tFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## care so much about you know actual NOPR dates and 2 

## final rule dates unless I give you for ones that are 3 

## ongoing, this is the current, this is the end date 4 

## versus ones that are going to start, this is the 5 

## start date, this is the end date because clearly if 6 

## we are all talking about data and getting in that 7 

## data you are going to try to accrue it around the 8 

## start date or around the state date of that rule. 9 

## MR. ECKMAN: My whole purpose in this is 10 

## not to have to sit around and wait while looking for 11 

## information. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: What we have been trying 13 

## to do is we have been trying to do RFI's like really, 14 

## really early and kick off test procedures and 15 

## standards rulemakings where particularly in test 16 

## procedures I think it would be great to kick them all 17 

## off earlier than later than we have in the past with 18 

## a bunch of these questions, where others could see 19 

## what we already thinking on the sticky points. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: Yes. 21 

## MR. ECKMAN: Giving the RFI six months out 22 

## before you start something when it takes two years toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## collect the data. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: Well part of and we just saw 3 

## an RFI come out this week on pool heaters and direct 4 

## heating equipment so this is one where the agency is 5 

## just beginning really to implement the six year look 6 

## back requirement. This is an act that is part of 7 

## ESSA, every standard every six years so now we are 8 

## starting to see this because this was completed in 9 

## 2010. 10 

## So we should expect that schedule what 11 

## Kelly is asking for go ahead and show it to me so 12 

## that I know what you are thinking, that way I don't 13 

## have to put it together myself but that is what we 14 

## should be expecting is that kind of schedule. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And then any rules, off 16 

## the cuff, any rules that we finalized in 2010 and 17 

## 2011 you are going to see hit the six year look back 18 

## this year or next year roughly until we have a chance 19 

## to put it together but I'm guessing you are going to 20 

## be fairly interested in that group. 21 

## MS. KLINE: I think it sometimes it just 22 

## helps to see them one place to focus the mind becauseFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## I think you know it's easy to focus on what's 2 

## immediately in front of you. 3 

## MR. CASKEY: Right. 4 

## MR. DELASKI: That brings me to another 5 

## topic question related, like what John was saying 6 

## about you know we hear this theme of getting to the 7 

## end of the rope right, and diminishing returns. This 8 

## was discussed during the process rule that Deborah 9 

## was involved in so many years ago. 10 

## You know what is significant I mean so the 11 

## agency was given the definition of significant by 12 

## NRDC, and what is it Dan, non-trivial? 13 

## MR. COHEN: Non-trivial. 14 

## MS. MILLER: That's real help. 15 

## MR. DELASKI: What happened back in the 16 

## 90's twenty years ago now was thinking about what 17 

## this was the process that Deborah managed I think 18 

## which was this prioritization process. Do what the 19 

## biggest bang for the buck is, well that led them to a 20 

## lawsuit and CE Bodnan. 21 

## MS. MILLER: You know all the names. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: That said you got to do whatFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## you got to do, you have got to do what the law says 2 

## which is to issue a final rule. You can't just say 3 

## we are not going to do that one because some people 4 

## said it wasn't that important, but the law said you 5 

## have to do it so it strikes me that there's this 6 

## whole issue around how you get the biggest bang for 7 

## the buck and at the same time comply with the legal 8 

## obligations. 9 

## We all would like I think around this 10 

## table to see the agency work on the rulemakings are 11 

## going to deliver the greatest cost effective energy 12 

## savings and spend less time than the ones that don't 13 

## do much right. But at the same time we all want them 14 

## to -- we have to comply with the law so it strikes me 15 

## that the whole topic there for us to as that advisory 16 

## committee at a high level to wrap our arms around, 17 

## how do we help the agency to wrestle with this 18 

## challenge which I think is going to become more 19 

## acute. 20 

## As you go back at these rules, again, you 21 

## know to John's point if a transformer is not 99.5% 22 

## efficient then where are you going to go so youFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## wrestle with that, that strikes me as a topic for -- 2 

## a rich topic for us to discuss. 3 

## MS. MILLER: Unless there are new 4 

## technologies that work, sorry Deborah Miller. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: Thoughts on that one? 6 

## MS. MILLER: So how do we begin? 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Well we could ask, again I 8 

## don't want to keep throwing everything back to the 9 

## agency but I think a way to begin is to understand 10 

## how do they interpret, you just heard it you know 11 

## what it is and how to manage that discussion with 12 

## these folks on how they do it today. 13 

## MS. MILLER: Ashley and John what occurs 14 

## to me and I was just mentioning it to David is I 15 

## don't know how frequently this group meets. Like you 16 

## were saying Ashley you could call, you could have a 17 

## discussion on the phone, it is just never as fruitful 18 

## on the phone, people are triple tasking you know, 19 

## looking at their mail et cetera. 20 

## I don't know how many times you have met 21 

## in the past year, I know it is a big burden when we 22 

## meet but if the items are really high on yourFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## priority list as well, it may mean that we need to 2 

## meet face to face if possible more than what two 3 

## times a year, is that how you met, two, three, four? 4 

## MR. DELASKI: This is our second face to 5 

## face. 6 

## MS. MILLER: Face to face. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: So we have not been meeting 8 

## twice a year no, we have been meeting by phone. 9 

## MS. MILLER: By phone, yeah. You know and 10 

## it may not have to be that many but I just think you 11 

## get so much more done. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: And the reason I think we 13 

## haven't met face to face is we haven't been taking on 14 

## these tasks of trying to play our advisory role, it's 15 

## simply doing the telecast of creating and improving 16 

## working groups and that can be done in that way. 17 

## MR. CASKEY: So this is John, so if we are 18 

## going to agree to take on some of those tasks I don't 19 

## know if it will be like subsets like five people 20 

## working on this topic A, five people working on topic 21 

## B, but maybe one way to improve things would be to 22 

## get like an annual schedule and maybe a whole list toFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## prove that these words came out of his mouth but how 2 

## to schedule maybe every quarter or something like 3 

## that, you know ahead of time and then you try to plan 4 

## around it, maybe the attendance would improve a 5 

## little bit by doing that or at least maybe two face 6 

## to face or two teleconferences so if we get it on the 7 

## schedule now as opposed to doing it, just reacting 8 

## once we have the creation of the potential work group 9 

## or something like that. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: That makes sense to me, 11 

## schedule them out for the year, you know get them on 12 

## the calendar, people can organize around them as 13 

## opposed to trying to squeeze it in at the end and 14 

## hopefully we will get a quorum. 15 

## MS. MILLER: So what have we established 16 

## when are we going to prioritize and talk about 17 

## positions because I think once we prioritize them we 18 

## will understand that number one we have probably 19 

## looked at these issues a million times, it's always a 20 

## different thing at a different time. 21 

## I was laughing about refrigerators because 22 

## that was one of my projects and of course AHAM hasFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## had a recycling program for those second 2 

## refrigerators and I possibly see them in people's 3 

## garages so what are we going to talk about, which are 4 

## the ones that we really should spend our time on? I 5 

## would rather take fewer and have results that's going 6 

## to be effective and that DOE feels is good than do 7 

## you know a list of ten and there's a lot of wasted 8 

## time. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: So it strikes me that we 10 

## have asked for some things from the agency, we are 11 

## going to take this concept on board and these ideas 12 

## on board and think about them and come back and meet 13 

## I would submit sometime in the spring face to face 14 

## and then use that meeting to prioritize where we want 15 

## to work and dedicate some of our time and effort to 16 

## tackling some of these topics. 17 

## MS. MILLER: And this is a legal question 18 

## I probably shouldn't ask. Can the advisory committee 19 

## ever have private meetings and the only reason why I 20 

## ask it is that we always involve John and Ashley, we 21 

## need their feedback, but I would assume one of the 22 

## issues always is your schedules, you are alwaysFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## pressed against people. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Believe it or not I'm 3 

## usually helpful on the issue of us getting together 4 

## per se it's not necessarily time. 5 

## MR.COHEN: So this is a chartered 6 

## committee so if you are going to have a meeting it 7 

## actually has to be recorded as a meeting but that 8 

## doesn't mean you can't all be emailing each other 9 

## individually sort of just communicating in 10 

## preparation for it. 11 

## MS. MILLER: So we could have a conference 12 

## call if we wanted to? 13 

## MR. COHEN: Not without notice. 14 

## MS. MILLER: Notice. 15 

## MR. DELASKI: Yeah we just can't call it a 16 

## meeting of the committee. We can't go have lunch 17 

## together. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We could have a discussion 19 

## of business kind of leading up to prepare for a 20 

## public meeting. 21 

## MR. CASKEY: Never use the word closed we 22 

## learned.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: No never. 2 

## MR. COHEN: You can email each other, you 3 

## could talk to each other that is perfectly fine, it's 4 

## not a meeting it's a conversation. 5 

## MR. CASKEY: So this is John Caskey. Can 6 

## I do a sort of a friendly amendment to yours or 7 

## amendment? One option to move forward would really 8 

## be you asked what we could ask DOE to do so I mean 9 

## looking at the -- I mean you know we have some ideas, 10 

## I have seen you wrote them down from today, we have 11 

## these notes for several meetings over the last couple 12 

## of years or so, but it seems like this could really 13 

## be consolidated I mean in each of the meetings we 14 

## have brought out sort of the same topic, so I guess 15 

## my proposal would be that we ask DOE to take a look 16 

## at this and take a look into your list from today and 17 

## maybe come up with a narrowed down list, not to 18 

## eliminate anything but to see where you can 19 

## consolidate things into a more general topic or 20 

## question and come up with whatever that is, 10 or 15 21 

## topics and then maybe for us electronically to start 22 

## to figure out what the priorities would be and thenFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## from there maybe before we have our next meeting we 2 

## would be able to say that from this analysis we can 3 

## start working on it. 4 

## MR. DELASKI: That's a great idea. 5 

## MR. CASKEY: And then if you want to 6 

## prepare for that meeting to discuss them or you know 7 

## develop a scope and things like that before hand. 8 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary I agree 9 

## with that. I think it would also be nice if we could 10 

## have some short period of time where we could all 11 

## submit further ideas because I have got some brewing 12 

## that I am not ready to share today but would like to 13 

## talk to a couple of you about before sharing with the 14 

## group so if we could have a little time that would be 15 

## good. 16 

## MS. MILLER: So when are we going to this 17 

## is Deborah, so when are we going to have this 18 

## whatever, this call or email to make sure this list 19 

## is done. Andrew or DOE is going to put together, 20 

## DOE? We can volunteer people that are here right? 21 

## MS. CLEARY: Right. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: I'll tackle the task ofFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## taking the first cut and then I'll share it with 2 

## folks to check it to enhance it. 3 

## MS. CLEARY: Great. 4 

## MR. DELASKI: According to the agency. 5 

## MS. MILLER: And your deadline is, this is 6 

## Deborah. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Oh you are tough. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Worse than me. 9 

## MS. MILLER: We just talked about 10 

## deadlines, otherwise things just sit. 11 

## MR. DELASKI: I'll share it within two 12 

## weeks, okay. 13 

## MS. MILLER: That's why I love the 14 

## processing program. 15 

## MR. COHEN: 2 weeks. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: If we did want to meet 17 

## again in the spring so how -- because 18 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: Technically that's the 19 

## 22nd of June. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm just wondering because 21 

## I have availability of the room and we can discuss 22 

## this now really quick if you want to do that.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MS. MILLER: I understand, I would really 2 

## like also to jam in my schedule. I understand you 3 

## can't come to a lot of meetings because of the 4 

## schedule but if you could attend a few that would be 5 

## great. I'm not saying to cut everything off but to 6 

## see if we could run these dates by John too and try 7 

## to get on his schedule. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: So I would look maybe toward 9 

## the last week of April. 10 

## MS. MILLER: Well when do you have the 11 

## rooms available? 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKI: April 30th that's pretty 13 

## late in the month if you would like that date. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: For those of you 15 

## interested, the parts public meeting is the 29th so 16 

## for those attending you will already be here for 17 

## that. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKI: Thursday, April 30th we 19 

## just put a hold on that if that makes sense. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: Can anybody not make that 21 

## day? 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKI: The 30th.Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## MS. MILLER: Do we have any other 2 

## alternative dates if that doesn't work, like two or 3



## -- 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKI: We can put the 27th or the 5 

## 28th, 24th, 23rd, let's shoot for the 30th. 6 

## MS. MILLER: Okay. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Any alternative dates that 8 

## week John? The 28th? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKI: We did put the 28th or the 10 

## 27th. 11 

## MS. KLINE: I have an industry meeting, 12 

## but it's here. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: 24th Friday? 14 

## MR. DELASKI: I'm not available that week. 15 

## How about the first of May. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't have May in front 17 

## of me. The 30th is a Friday -- a Thursday because 18 

## Friday is the first. 19 

## MS. MILLER: John can you send us a list 20 

## of dates that you all would feel would be good and 21 

## then the committee can decide or do a call. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: Well if the 30th works, theFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## only question is to try to get -- and hopefully Scott 2 

## Harris. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me just put a -- April 4 

## 30th. 5 

## MS. MILLER: Put a hold on it. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: And then we will go from 7 

## there. 8 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, while we are 9 

## discussing this we are having a report come out on 10 

## June 15th, we need to have one soon after that why 11 

## don't we try and peg that one as well. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So now we are calling for 13 

## a June date, I don't have the dates for June in front 14 

## of us. 15 

## MR. DELASKI: Sounds good. 16 

## MR. HON: ASHRAE starts on the 24th. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Great, that's a great day 18 

## to have it. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: We wanted to make sure we 20 

## reserve some time at the end here for additional 21 

## topics and public comment. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So I had some people theyFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## passed to me and yeah -- and the people on the 2 

## webinar want to ask again whether or not they want to 3 

## speak at this point please raise your hand on the 4 

## webinar. I think we can unmute you. Okay we must 5 

## have missed the first tip off or something I don't 6 

## know. 7 

## They are all distracted by the different 8 

## screen. Anyone in the gallery, I think we have a few 9 

## more Michael? 10 

## MR. MCCABE: Michael McCabe, my comments 11 

## represent my own views and two points on test 12 

## procedures. John when you talked about the charter 13 

## for the commercial heating and air conditioning group 14 

## you talked about limiting it to standards. Since the 15 

## proposed rule out on the furnace test, commercial 16 

## furnace test -- the proposed rule is being discussed 17 

## with potential air conditioner test procedures, would 18 

## that be part -- could that be part of the charge for 19 

## the committee? 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No, we're just going to 21 

## stick with the standards at this point and I will 22 

## leave that proceeding because it could have someFederal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## bearing, hopefully it will have a big bearing so with 2 

## that timing I think we have decided that it's better 3 

## to just stick with the standards at this point. 4 

## MR. MCCABE: And the second kind of 5 

## follows up the general discussion test procedures 6 

## that Tom raised, for some of the background folks may 7 

## not -- many of you know who I am but for those who 8 

## don't I'm a retired person that worked in building 9 

## efficiency programs for most of my 40 year career, 10 

## including much of it with the appliance standards 11 

## program. This year will be the 40th anniversary of 12 

## the passage of the original legislation, Energy 13 

## Policy and Conservation Act and in 1978 the first 14 

## amendment to it. One of the principal reasons for 15 

## that amendment was over test procedures. 16 

## So test procedures have always been an 17 

## issue that the program has struggled with and so I 18 

## commend you for picking that up and for anything the 19 

## committee can do on that development with the agency. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay thank you for that, I 21 

## don't think we have anything else at this time, I 22 

## will strike the gavel. Thank you again for coming,Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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## thanks for everyone on the webinar. I think it was a 2 

## very productive and it looks like we have a lot of 3 

## work ahead of us, thanks again. Get home safe for 4 

## those that are traveling and see you next time. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: Thank you everybody. 6 

## (Concluded at 12:52 P.M.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 165 **A a.m**  1:13 4:2 **ability** 108:19 131:8 131:10 **able** 23:13 31:19 56:14 80:3 ,3 ,11 86:10 96:15 112:18 127:7 130:1 131:12 145:22 157:2 **absolutely** 66:9 139:7,14 **AC's** 99:5 **accelerate** 141:22 **accomplish** 62:9 **account** 54:20 94:7 117:21 **accrue** 147:7 **accurate** 83:11 **acknowledgement** 107:8 **acronym** 13:13 ,13 **act** 89:21 98:15 109:5 ,9,11 119:20 136:12 148:6 163:13 **acted** 90:3 **action** 89:20 **active** 6:17 71:6 100:7 101:21 **actively** 80:22 134:9 **activities** 116:5 117:10,21 118:9 119:5 120:6 **activity** 29:1 119:10 132:3 **actual** 45:3 108:20 115:2 129:17 147:1 **acute** 150:19 **AD** 8:13 **add** 69:5 96:4 130:8 142:5 145:18 **addition** 12:22 27:18 64:9 89:22 92:11 118:16 **additional** 11:9 15:7 21:2 35:7,9 75:17 76:22 83:14 84:2 92:18 95:12 96:16 99:18 100:8 115:20 144:16 161:20 **additionally** 105:9 **address** 9:12 43:21 59:9,14 60:7,10 67:16 82:3 ,5

93:16 100:20 101:17 117:13 122:4 124:9 126:15 **addressed** 9:16 27:20 30:9 59:16 127:10,11 **addressing** 82:8 101:18 **adhere** 22:22 116:2 **adjourn** 115:19 **administrative** 52:14 **adopted** 5:5 132:18 134:3 ,21 **advance** 6:20 32:19 101:20 **advanced** 5:8 **advances** 72:7 **advantage** 30:20 71:14 72:12 106:9 111:18 139:18 **advantages** 55:17 141:10 **advice** 127:15 130:2 143:17 **advise** 118:4 **adviser** 6:6 **advisory** 1:3 4:5 109:5 ,7,8,11 127:14 142:12 150:15 152:14 154:18 **advocacy** 6:19 69:19 126:13 **advocates** 39:8 41:18 78:4 92:4 121:21 124:7 **AEDM's** 30:3 **AEMTCA** 89:6 **affairs** 5:15 **affect** 59:4 127:3 **affiliation** 4:12 **agencies** 29:19 127:3 **agency** 6:15 39:16 70:9 71:18 89:7 103:6 128:2 130:3 144:5 148:4 149:11 150:10,17 151:9 154:10 158:4 163:19 **agency's** 119:5 **agenda** 4:7 9:8,18 9:18 11:13 15:6 35:6 38:19 69:7

103:10 115:18 116:4 120:10,14 120:16 146:4,20 **ago** 12:7 25:13 46:18 86:19 122:14 134:20 140:21 149:9,16 **agree** 26:22 27:3 ,6 36:11 65:21 67:6 72:21 74:21 75:5 75:7 78:4,5 ,7,7 81:5 85:12 86:18 102:7 111:20 122:8 133:12 134:14 145:9 152:18 157:8 **agreed** 22:3 ,11 ,22 75:6 **agreeing** 76:11 **agreement** 33:7 55:11 77:6,20 93:19 94:8 111:17 112:6,7,21 **AHAM** 15:4 26:21 27:1 153:22 **ahead** 39:17 85:11 91:14 109:17 139:15 148:11 153:3 164:3 **AHRI** 42:7 52:19 53:3 ,4 69:14,18 84:19 92:3 98:13 99:21 102:17 **air** 3:3 14:5 45:8 69:7,14 70:18 71:2,21 72:4 113:18,19 115:13 139:15 140:1 141:2 162:13 ,17 **Air-Conditioning** 2:12 **akin** 39:22 **align** 72:1 **alike** 50:9 **alliance** 92:8 **Allied** 3:3 115:13 **allocate** 79:17 **allow** 130:18 **alternative** 108:10 160:2,7 **Amarane** 98:12,13 99:20,20 136:15 136:19 **AMCA** 39:3 ,7,10 40:2 41:19 43:20 52:19 55:8

**amendment** 136:10 156:6,7 163:14,15 **American** 69:16 **amount** 23:9 83:3 111:19 137:13 **Amrane** 2:12 69:12 **analogy** 53:9 104:3 **analyses** 89:15 **analysis** 18:16 23:16 36:21 39:19 51:8 54:11 ,15 70:5 ,13 76:1 77:1 82:4 83:13 84:1 84:10 91:10 94:2 94:19 95:7,7,19 99:14,18,21 101:13 104:21 105:19 106:1 ,2,19 106:21 107:9 108:1 ,22 112:2 121:15 122:11 141:8 157:2 **analytical** 99:13 **and/or** 47:4 **Andrew** 2:17 6:10 9:6 19:17 26:22 34:20 41:20 42:21 57:20 58:15 68:20 72:20 73:9,21 81:22 114:13 118:22 120:9 140:5 157:19 **angle** 45:9 **anniversary** 163:11 **announced** 116:17 **annual** 70:8 152:22 **answer** 77:18 81:21 83:12 93:9 106:15 122:1 124:6 **answers** 82:20 **anticipated** 79:21 **anxious** 48:7 **anybody** 19:22 37:16,20 42:12,13 67:13 ,14 68:15 121:21 159:20 **anymore** 84:20 140:4 **anyway** 8:20 **APAC** 54:5 **APCA** 135:14 **apparently** 8:16 **appeal's** 85:17 **appeals** 85:15 ,16 **appear** 20:20 **Appearances** 2:1 3:1 **apples** 28:20 **appliance** 1:2 2:17 3:4 4:5 ,16,18 5:14 6:7,11 ,14,21 49:6 49:7 102:17 118:5 136:5 163:10 **appliances** 5:4,17 34:22 130:22 **applicants** 115:8 **application** 45:8 63:12 **applications** 43:14 44:20,20 45:15 **applied** 44:3 **apply** 5:10 65:18 66:1 92:18,19 142:13 **appreciate** 46:20 75:1 82:15 123:8 125:7 **approach** 131:20 **approaching** 26:8 **appropriate** 120:17 **approval** 115:3 **approve** 57:22 71:8 73:3 76:8 97:18 114:17,19 125:13 125:14 **approved** 125:16 **approves** 64:7 **April** 87:12 159:9 159:12,18 161:3 **ARCA** 92:11 **area** 17:4 26:18 36:19 47:15 50:1 61:4 64:9 65:5 **areas** 23:10 60:14 98:4 123:13 ,16 124:8 125:1 **argue** 135:17 **arguments** 63:17 **arms** 43:16 150:16 **Armstrong** 2:4 4:17 4:17 17:14 18:13 22:14 23:15 33:1 34:3 ,9 51:4 54:8 56:12 57:15 63:18 68:18 75:19 79:8 80:16 83:22 89:8 90:14 97:22 104:18 106:15 107:7 108:7,16 111:10 113:14 114:15 115:22Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 166 123:3 124:15 ,20 133:11 136:18,21 143:13 144:6,22 146:10,22 148:15 155:2,18 156:1 159:14 161:12,17 **ASAP** 6:15 39:9 **Ashely** 104:19 **Ashley** 2:4 4:17 11:9 17:14 22:14 34:10 51:4 52:17 56:14 58:4,6 68:17 74:4 79:6 89:8 94:15 ,17 97:15 ,22 123:4 134:15 143:4 151:13 ,16 154:20 **ASHRA** 134:2 **ASHRAE** 79:15 89:9,19,20 90:2 90:12,20 97:11 132:6,7,10,15 135:6,14 136:2,4 136:13 ,15 ,17 161:16 **aside** 16:4 126:3 **asked** 40:8 71:7 117:16 154:10 156:8 **asking** 15:4 53:21 77:16 87:9,9,10 95:2 110:2 114:17 148:11 **asks** 39:4 **aspect** 84:22 **aspects** 119:9 **ASRAC** 4:5 ,18 5:21 6:22 7:16 9:7 10:18 11:15 15:15 16:9 37:10 38:3 ,4 38:5 ,6,10 57:7,22 64:6 68:11 69:2 73:2,3 ,4,5 ,5 80:11 80:14 81:2,3 ,12 85:14 105:14 108:2,6,11 109:10 109:15 114:2,11 114:17 118:15 125:11 126:20 128:14 **ASREC** 132:2 **assisting** 89:16 **associated** 49:19 85:1 ,7 **association** 2:16 3:4 5:14 7:4 74:5 92:12 130:19

**assume** 22:10 32:18 97:4 154:21 **assumed** 48:10 **assumption** 30:8 **assumptions** 61:17 83:17 84:22 **attachments** 42:9 **attempt** 129:2 **attend** 37:8 105:16 159:4 **attendance** 153:4 **attended** 12:9,9 **attendees** 51:12 **attending** 101:16 159:16 **attention** 26:7 47:13 81:10 **authority** 27:2 39:14 51:17 70:12 128:5 **authorize** 56:4 64:18 **authorized** 39:15 **authorizing** 55:21 **availability** 158:21 **available** 106:3 159:11 160:14 **Avenue** 1:7 **avenues** 82:2,3 ,4,7 84:5 97:17 106:16 106:18 **avoid** 75:2 79:1 **Awareness** 2:17 6:12 **awful** 103:15 **axial** 45:5 ,7 **axle** 45:3 ,3 **B B**  152:21 **back** 6:3 9:2,19 16:12 23:3 24:7 33:10 40:7 41:13 42:16 55:20,21 56:1 ,15 57:9 62:21 63:6 68:6,8 70:20 71:20 80:9 84:11 86:5 ,15 95:22 97:1 105:5 108:6,20 112:17 113:8,11 114:2 116:16 118:18 125:14 126:1 ,16 126:17 127:17 129:10,11 ,11 ,19 137:1 142:19,20

143:20,21 ,22 146:4 148:6,17 149:15 150:20 151:8 154:12 **background** 24:10 79:11 101:7 163:6 **backing** 124:4 **backward** 44:18 **bad** 15:14 129:6,7 **badge** 35:3 **ball** 103:4 **ballpark** 25:5 **ban** 48:16 **bang** 137:11 149:19 150:6 **barrier** 110:8 **base** 73:12 **based** 11:22 14:17 25:7 70:13 78:1 87:2 95:8 108:10 **baseline** 37:1 142:14,15 **basic** 76:2 80:9 93:18 **basically** 8:7 45:11 96:1 97:1 106:6,8 107:22 113:6 **basis** 20:17 21:1 71:17 73:4 78:18 93:15 101:22 102:4 109:21 125:19 **bearing** 163:1 ,1 **becoming** 26:2 141:3 **beer** 25:22 **beg** 44:6 **beginning** 95:22 148:5 **behalf** 69:13 ,15 83:13 **believe** 8:7 11:7,22 43:5 155:2 **believes** 8:11 105:14 **beneficial** 17:2 **benefit** 51:7,10 91:8 91:12 93:3 94:12 100:1 112:3 124:11 125:1 145:4,7 146:1 **Berkeley** 101:10 **best** 10:14 14:21 23:18 32:11 41:1 53:18 84:1 86:7 94:8 103:20 106:3 126:5

**better** 8:21 13:12,13 30:14 35:13 ,13 39:21 49:11 66:5 72:16 74:12 86:18 112:21 134:7,7 143:8 163:2 **beverage** 26:1 **beyond** 96:22 137:13 ,17 **bi-weekly** 16:8 **biased** 106:21 **big** 22:16 23:12 29:13 30:18 32:2 79:14 99:12 123:16 129:7 139:18 141:8 151:21 163:1 **bigger** 70:10 **biggest** 25:3 26:17 45:22 70:12 83:20 86:11 103:5 149:19 150:6 **bit** 7:18 24:14 32:14 47:1 57:21 77:11 84:17 88:15 89:12 101:6 105:22 107:19 108:4 115:17 130:9 138:21 146:13 153:5 **blah** 105:14,14,14 **blank** 93:13 **blast** 12:6 **block** 120:16,19 **blog** 117:2 120:3 **blowers** 38:20 39:2 52:20 57:7 58:12 64:12 68:10,12,19 **blurred** 29:11 **blurring** 29:18 **board** 11:1 ,2 85:19 86:17 118:22 154:11 ,12 **Bodnan** 149:20 **boilers** 30:5 66:16 **booted** 8:15 **Boswell** 2:9 **bothers** 112:11 **bottom** 106:1 **bought** 25:16 **boundaries** 26:15 **bounds** 62:10 **box** 50:12,15 ,17 51:3 ,13 52:2,3 ,5 61:9 64:21 70:22 72:5

**Boy** 91:22 **brand** 49:18 **branding** 34:21 **breadth** 101:2 **break** 30:12 43:18 68:2,4,4 **breakfast** 45:14 **breaks** 61:18 **breath** 41:6 **brewing** 157:11 **bridge** 93:12 **bring** 33:13 91:17 98:20 99:6 103:20 **bringing** 46:14 109:19 120:5 **brings** 41:2 123:20 149:4 **broad** 28:4 44:8 76:18 77:10 92:15 127:8,12 **broaden** 46:5 **broadening** 41:6 **broader** 28:10 127:9 **broadly** 63:4 **broken** 32:4 **brought** 74:19 126:11 140:21 156:14 **Brundage** 2:14 **buck** 137:11 149:19 150:7 **buckets** 20:10 **bucks** 18:22 **build** 31:2,5 48:21 130:9 141:17 **building** 6:14 16:3 44:13 85:10 116:10 136:6,7 141:16 163:8 **buildings** 4:21 **built** 46:19 **bunch** 45:11 126:11 147:18 **burden** 47:19 73:11 121:5 ,20 131:11 145:19 151:21 **business** 8:22 11:12 23:3 38:2 44:1 68:9 155:19 **businesses** 139:5 **buy** 10:14 35:1 41:4 46:7,8 61:18 142:6 **buying** 49:22Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 167 **buys** 40:16 **C C**  4:1 **C&I** 39:15 125:22 **cabinet** 14:7,8,12 **cabinets** 13:17 24:14 27:20 **calculation** 145:16 **calculations** 24:8 83:15 133:2 **calendar** 130:10 131:18 146:2 153:12 **California** 2:20 6:5 6:19 26:2 92:9 100:4 **call** 24:5 25:6 45:6 60:9 90:17 109:16 151:16 155:12,15 157:18 160:21 **called** 17:17 48:9 **calling** 113:13 132:2 161:12 **calls** 9:21 88:21 ,22 114:10 **capabilities** 106:10 **capital** 138:9 **capture** 129:5 **car** 139:21 **cards** 73:18 81:1 **care** 4:14 147:1 **career** 163:9 **case** 20:1 60:15 73:8 76:1 77:12 86:13 87:18 97:11 99:17 126:14 **cases** 20:4 99:5 **cash** 137:21 **Caskey** 2:15 7:3 ,3 16:16,16 18:7 23:5 ,5 35:11 ,11 47:4,16,18 58:7 58:18 60:11 ,11 64:4,4,22 66:9 67:4,4 82:13 ,14 91:15 ,17 105:8,8 107:21 109:14 119:18 144:18 149:3 152:17 155:21 156:5 ,5 157:5 **Cassidy** 10:14 **cast** 63:4 **catch** 114:21 128:2 **categories** 8:1 18:18 28:5 29:17 44:5 ,8 131:3 **category** 26:6,20 34:5 130:14,19 **caught** 128:2 **caution** 89:14 **CE** 149:20 **CEE** 80:5 **CEER** 139:22,22 **center** 60:4 **centrifugal** 44:18 45:5 ,7,10 **certain** 33:15 ,15 47:21 56:19 61:12 62:6 79:21 88:4 134:4,4 146:9 **certainly** 25:6 27:15 35:7 40:5 87:12 93:14 123:11 139:13 **certainty** 131:7 **certification** 76:2 93:18 113:22 **cetera** 12:11 ,12,12 14:15 151:19 **challenge** 62:22 102:8 127:13 150:18 **challenged** 77:2 **challenges** 26:13 53:10 127:21 **challenging** 40:13 40:17 **chance** 121:1 148:18 **change** 33:19 90:3 90:11 ,12 91:1 94:18 95:7,7 96:16 97:5 98:9 105:20 106:12 120:11 123:1 144:7,10 **changed** 106:14 **changes** 90:7 94:19 94:21 95:3 ,20 97:10 134:8 143:10 144:9 146:6 **changing** 143:21 **characteristics** 18:21 86:2 **characterization** 126:2 **charge** 162:18 **chargers** 127:9 **Charles** 2:19 35:16 **Charlie** 7:17,20 11:2 12:9 28:2 34:4 38:9,9 57:10 75:12 90:5 ,6 112:9 140:18,19 161:8 **Charlie's** 104:18 **charter** 36:11 162:12 **chartered** 109:10 155:5 **cheat** 42:16 **check** 158:2 **check-ins** 16:8 **child** 29:5 **chillers** 13:18 **choice** 11:16 97:1 **choices** 85:3 **choose** 114:20 **choosing** 81:16 **chosen** 115:2 **Circuit** 135:7 **circulated** 125:7 126:18 **circumstances** 46:20 **circumvent** 82:21 **civil** 14:1 **clarify** 107:16,20 **class** 27:19 **classes** 111:20 130:20 **clear** 12:11 14:14 24:3 48:15 **clearly** 29:6 72:18 107:2 145:6 147:5 **Cleary** 3:4 5:13 ,13 22:2,2,10 26:21 26:21 67:10 69:1 69:5 76:6,6 77:4 88:11 ,12 97:15 ,15 122:8 157:8,8,21 158:3 **clock** 87:11 **close** 8:19 96:4 112:21 **closed** 95:14 155:21 **closely** 19:10 **closer** 35:9 **cloth** 32:21 **clothes** 145:15 ,15 **clunkers** 137:21 **co-chair** 9:7 10:3 **co-chairs** 7:2 **coalition** 6:16 **Coca-Cola** 10:13 **code** 118:5 136:7 141:19 **codes** 136:6 141:16 **Cohen** 2:5 89:17,17 90:12,13 95:10,10 96:10,18 97:10 99:8,8 108:17,17 109:15 110:9,9,20 111:7 116:6,6 119:7,13 ,21 135:3 135:3 ,21 136:1 146:18 149:13 155:13 156:2 158:15 **cold** 32:21 **collect** 106:18 148:1 **collecting** 88:7 121:8 **collection** 121:12 124:5 ,6 **collective** 143:16 **collectively** 130:1 **combined** 100:1 **come** 8:11 ,16 9:19 9:20,21 12:18 16:7,12 26:9,11 26:11 30:18 33:6 55:21 ,21 56:1 59:7 60:5 65:15 68:6 71:7,9,11 ,12 71:15 72:9 77:2 77:19 81:12 86:5 86:13 ,20 98:10 105:4,5 108:20 111:5 114:16 118:2,17 122:17 125:5 ,14 127:19 128:14,17,18 129:8 133:20 140:8 148:3 154:12 156:17,20 159:3 161:9 **comes** 58:1 93:2 109:6 116:15 123:8 132:11 135:6,10 136:16 143:20 **coming** 11:1 ,2 32:16 52:7 62:19 63:6 65:1 84:10 96:2 104:20 108:5 116:11 128:10 142:16 143:19 163:22 **commenced** 54:16 **commend** 163:18 **comment** 9:1 15:3 16:14 25:10 46:22 52:17 57:12 68:22 73:7,10 74:2 82:6 95:14 96:4 99:18 106:19 115:14,20 161:21 **comments** 12:14 15:13 33:3 47:2,4 53:4,19 54:13 ,21 73:22 88:10 94:2 94:3 95:8 98:7 100:20 112:8 115:15 117:20 124:22 162:10 **commercial** 7:21 ,22 8:2 29:8,18 30:3 ,4 38:20 44:1 ,17,19 46:10 52:19 69:7 69:8 70:19 71:2,2 72:22 80:7 113:18 113:19 162:13 ,15 **Commission** 2:20 6:5 ,6 100:4 **commit** 98:1 ,8 **commitment** 76:22 102:2,3 ,10,10 **commitments** 128:4 **committee** 1:3 4:5 8:22 9:14,22 10:7 10:12,17 11:2,3 31:14 38:3 39:5 41:9 55:20 57:22 63:2 64:7 74:21 76:7 77:9,11 ,14 80:14 81:18 82:9 97:18 98:3 100:13 109:5 ,8,9,10,11 113:12 118:3 119:2,6 122:4 125:10,11 ,17 126:7,10 127:7,15 128:16,21 129:4 129:21 141:21 150:16 154:18 155:6,16 160:21 162:19 163:19 **committee's** 143:9 **common** 26:2 35:4 84:14 108:14 126:20,21 **communicating** 155:9 **communication** 141:13 **community** 69:19Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 168 91:7 **companies** 33:14 **company** 2:14,21 7:22 8:11 33:16 140:21 **compared** 111:22 **comparing** 28:20 70:8 **compatible** 139:16 **complain** 134:17 **complaint** 81:2 **complete** 50:8 **completed** 27:16 36:13 148:8 **completely** 90:14 133:12 134:14 **complex** 17:20 53:22 54:2 56:17 56:19 90:4 93:22 135:15 ,16 **complexities** 97:11 **complexity** 95:12 **compliance** 144:12 **complicated** 27:13 48:22 63:8 84:18 85:11 89:4,18 **complications** 96:2 110:1 **comply** 72:15 78:14 133:8 150:7,14 **component** 18:9 40:14 48:6,18,19 50:8 60:20 **components** 35:20 48:1 49:9 **compressor** 14:17 **computer** 60:4 **concept** 49:15 56:5 130:4 154:11 **concern** 49:14 81:9 92:22 101:5 **concerned** 100:5 ,16 105:22 **concerns** 48:3 82:4 85:13 93:12 127:12 **Concluded** 164:6 **conditioner** 71:22 72:5 139:15 140:1 162:17 **conditioners** 69:7 70:19 71:3 113:19 **conditioning** 69:14 141:2 162:13 **conference** 155:11 **confidence** 77:9 **confidential** 83:8 106:17 **confidentially** 83:10 **confused** 105:10 132:5 143:19 **confusing** 132:19 134:21 **Congress** 6:2 70:10 88:21 89:1 ,5 ,6 **connected** 139:12 **cons** 58:11 64:11 **consensus** 15:21 20:2,10 41:15 46:3 86:7,8,20 87:1 ,6 93:4 94:4 94:12 95:17,18 102:4 104:14,15 104:17 109:2,13 111:15 113:12 125:19 **consent** 37:22 **Conservation** 2:18 5:3 163:13 **consider** 10:1 13:15 15:5 ,12 18:14 19:7,10 35:17 63:3 64:20 94:20 140:20 **consideration** 65:6 **considerations** 29:21 52:2,8 144:15 **considering** 38:17 **considers** 15:16 **consist** 11:21 13:15 **consistency** 53:15 **consistent** 72:10 **consists** 6:16 **consolidate** 156:19 **consolidated** 156:13 **constraint** 36:6 122:21 **constraints** 128:9 **constructive** 41:15 **consultant** 10:15 **consultants** 83:4 **consume** 24:14 **consumer** 6:19 145:3 ,5 **consumption** 23:10 85:8,10 129:9,10 129:16 **contemplate** 118:9 **content** 66:17 **contention** 32:17 112:1 **context** 41:1 53:17

54:5 ,5 **contractor** 101:10 **contractors** 92:12 101:15 104:5 ,9 132:9 **contribute** 119:2 **control** 49:19 61:15 **controlled** 62:19 **controversial** 22:17 33:8 **conversation** 32:14 75:18 156:4 **conversations** 20:8 57:12 78:2 **convinces** 106:13 **cool** 14:5 **cooled** 13:17 24:14 27:19 **cooler** 25:17,18 26:1 **coolers** 25:12 26:4 **cooling** 28:15 47:20 139:17 **coordinating** 143:2 **coordination** 143:1 **copies** 42:13 **copy** 41:21 **corner** 103:12 **correct** 70:4 76:12 76:14 119:7 136:1 136:20,21 **correlation** 90:9 **cost** 83:9 126:22 138:2,9,17,21 150:11 **costs** 72:15 83:16 **Council** 2:18 5:3 69:16 **Counsel** 5:17 89:18 99:9 108:18 110:10 **Counsel's** 95:11 **count** 37:12 67:13 **counter** 108:5 **country** 26:5 **counts** 145:14 **couple** 9:11 21:5 39:8,18 46:18 56:16 59:20 111:11 122:22 125:21 126:3 128:14 146:4 156:11 157:13 **course** 38:5 53:4 78:11 92:17 153:22 **court** 85:15 ,16,18

135:10 **Cousins** 10:13 **cover** 11:20 39:14 39:15 43:11 48:11 49:7 **coverage** 11:19 41:11 53:16 **covered** 17:17 18:2 30:3 42:21 48:13 48:15 50:15 ,16 53:11 **covering** 49:8 **covers** 17:8 49:12 **crack** 66:13 **crazy** 132:22 **create** 66:16 96:5 104:10 117:22 126:9 127:2 **created** 89:6 96:18 101:8 109:9 117:6 **creates** 95:11 99:15 121:20 **creating** 109:2,12 110:12,15 122:11 152:15 **creation** 64:8 77:11 153:8 **creative** 126:22 **critical** 60:22 78:14 83:5 112:11 **cross** 9:19 120:20 121:10 141:13 142:2 **cross-cutting** 125:12 127:12 129:20,22 **crossovers** 75:16 **cubes** 14:15 **cuff** 148:16 **current** 99:3 147:3 **currently** 94:16 **curve** 25:2 **curved** 44:16 **customed** 52:6 **customers** 29:12 **cut** 131:11 158:1 159:5 **cutting** 9:19 120:20 121:10 **CYBALSKY** 43:17 **cycle** 121:16 122:3 140:3 145:13 ,14 **CYMBALSKI** 159:12,18,22 160:4,9 **Cymbalsky** 2:3 4:3

4:3 ,15 7:17 8:12 11:11 15:15 19:3 21:17,20 22:7,13 23:3 ,21 31:21 36:5 37:9 38:16 42:4,8,15 46:16 52:16 57:5 ,19 59:22 66:12,21 67:3 ,5 68:5 ,8,15 69:4 72:19 74:14 74:18 75:8 103:16 107:15 113:9,17 114:8,13 115:6,16 120:8 122:20 124:19 136:14 137:1 142:7 147:12 158:8,16 158:20 160:13 ,16 161:3 ,22 162:20 163:20 **D D**  4:1 **D.C** 1:8 8:8 **Dan** 2:5 89:17 90:13 95:10 97:16 99:8 108:17 110:9 116:6 119:17 135:3 149:12 **dare** 91:22 **data** 15:8,8,9,9,10 18:5 30:17 54:14 55:11 ,12 82:5 84:2,10,21 88:1 ,2 88:6,7 91:6,9 95:11 96:16 104:21 105:4,6 106:3 ,18 107:2 108:22 121:8,12 123:13 124:5 ,5 ,13 125:2 129:16 133:1 144:13 145:4,5 147:6,7 148:1 **date** 23:1 36:11 41:19 61:19 63:7 70:13 72:1 ,6,10 97:5 ,8 113:3 ,3 ,5 ,6 113:7,9 115:5 124:2 130:16 147:3 ,5 ,5 ,8,8 159:13 161:13 **dates** 72:1 146:20 146:21 147:1 ,2 159:6 160:2,7,20Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 169 161:13 **Dave** 3:3 115:13 **David** 2:20 6:4 100:2,3 102:7 109:18 151:14 **dawdle** 56:11 **day** 29:9 44:7 88:5 88:5 103:19 105:2 106:8,8 107:18 124:16,19 131:20 134:10 159:21 161:17 **days** 16:6 111:5 **DC** 92:9 **deadline** 55:19 78:15 87:19 89:6 96:1 102:11 112:21 140:13 158:5 **deadlines** 79:2 102:2 104:14 128:3 140:10 158:10 **deal** 35:21 40:22 50:5 ,10,22 59:11 62:22 84:21 90:8 109:11 **dealing** 47:5 **deals** 137:20 **dealt** 30:10 52:9 **debate** 59:2 **Deborah** 5:20 6:13 11:1 23:21 ,22 40:8 41:20 42:13 43:13 53:20 63:15 64:15 65:9 68:12 69:9 74:3 79:5 ,7 87:8 97:3 111:4 114:5 122:12,13 140:5 149:8,17 151:4 157:17 158:6 **Deborah's** 86:15 142:20 **December** 126:1 **decide** 13:5 19:14 63:16 88:18 111:17 160:21 **decided** 27:14 56:19 88:3 105:1 163:2 **deciding** 59:19 **decision** 107:13 **decisions** 95:6 **dedicate** 154:15 **deepening** 39:10 **deficiency** 128:7 **define** 51:20 93:7 122:18 **defined** 29:6 44:2 93:3 **definitely** 28:4 **definition** 17:18 51:16,18,21 57:17 149:11 **definitions** 26:13 **definity** 63:20 **DELAKSI** 57:3 **deLaski** 2:17 6:10 6:10 9:9 19:17 24:22 25:10 26:1 28:2 29:22 31:4 34:20 36:16 38:21 42:1 ,6,12 43:1 47:2 53:2 54:2 55:17 56:9 58:6 58:14,20 60:6 62:11 ,14,18,21 64:1 65:12,18 66:7,11 ,19 67:1 68:3 ,21 69:6,12 73:22 75:12 76:5 76:14 77:7,22 78:9 82:12 84:16 85:12 86:5 87:11 88:10,20 90:5 91:16,22 93:13 ,22 94:10,14 96:8,17 97:7,14 98:10 100:2 101:6 104:3 107:5 108:12 109:16 110:17 112:8 113:2,5 ,11 113:16 114:12 115:17 116:1 118:21 119:12,16 120:13 122:7,12 125:4 131:21 133:10 136:22 140:18 142:10 143:14 144:2,4,19 146:2,7,17 147:20 148:2 149:4,15 ,22 151:5 ,7 152:4,7 152:12 153:10 154:9 155:15 157:4,22 158:4,7 158:11 159:8,20 160:7,14,22 161:6 161:15 ,19 164:5 **delay** 67:21 **deliberately** 136:11 **deliver** 150:11 **demand** 146:9

**department** 1:1 ,6 2:1 3:1 12:21 20:19 26:8 29:6,8 59:5 70:7 73:1 74:5 ,22 75:9 76:21 77:21 78:21 79:9 80:22 81:9 82:7 88:1 89:21 95:5 97:17 102:6 102:19,20 105:16 107:3 ,7 108:20 112:13 ,16 119:9 119:11 134:4 **Department's** 25:7 76:4 80:17 81:17 117:3 **depend** 18:3 19:1 79:4 115:1 **depending** 18:20 30:17 95:19 **depends** 18:6 56:21 78:20 115:6 **derail** 100:17 **describe** 137:21 **describing** 117:2 **deserves** 26:7 **design** 35:14 51:2 **designated** 4:4 12:9 **designating** 59:11 **desire** 71:15 ,22 94:4 **despite** 143:1 **detail** 12:17 47:9 **detailed** 16:1 98:4 **details** 22:16,17 32:10 54:1 **determination** 11:19 89:11 136:9 **determine** 99:17 116:20 **determined** 43:2 110:21 120:7 **develop** 12:21 13:9 15:1 17:12 26:3 39:17 102:4 129:1 137:17 157:7 **developed** 84:19 126:22 133:3 141:1 **developing** 39:12 80:2 127:5 133:4 **development** 4:20 6:9,17 25:4 120:15 126:5 163:19 **device** 138:4,10 **devices** 26:2

**DFO** 73:5 **Diane** 2:21 5:6 11:1 29:22 30:1 40:15 48:8 53:5 61:8 62:11 65:20 68:15 79:10 84:16 87:21 128:12 131:21 ,22 133:12 142:4 143:18 **Diane's** 143:8 **dictating** 65:4 **died** 139:7 **difference** 44:6 113:1 **differences** 45:16 **different** 8:1 ,13 11:21 17:11 ,12,16 17:16 18:7,17,18 18:21 ,22 20:13 ,14 28:19,19 32:5 33:14 45:15 51:15 52:1 ,2,8 75:21 77:12 81:6 84:4 89:13 99:5 107:9 108:15 113:10 117:18 118:1 126:12 132:21 133:13 134:9 136:7 144:13 153:20,20 162:7 **difficult** 48:18 90:8 **diminishing** 149:7 **direct** 70:1 148:3 **direction** 58:19 63:3 129:4 **directions** 58:9 **directives** 65:13 **directly** 80:12 125:11 **Director** 6:11 **disagree** 145:10 **disagreed** 48:14 **disappointed** 49:1 **disconnect** 61:20 **disconnected** 63:10 63:11 **disconnects** 28:7 **discover** 83:19 **discovery** 83:3 ,15 **discuss** 27:12 51:15 100:7 101:2 108:4 111:14 114:10,20 120:20 151:2 157:6 158:21 **discussed** 37:17 41:14 52:18 57:17 59:7 63:20 66:2,5 75:14 88:13 93:17 114:1 149:8 162:16 **discussing** 45:18 107:19 108:9 161:9 **discussion** 4:8 9:15 12:4 19:1 21:16 33:5 35:7,10 38:22 39:4 40:4 55:13 57:4 66:17 71:1 72:18 78:8,9 78:10,12 98:13 102:12,18 103:2 103:10 106:22 107:6 108:22 109:12,20 116:5 118:14,19 119:3 128:10 145:9 151:11 ,17 155:18 163:5 **discussions** 18:4 23:20 34:1 39:7 41:8 43:5 ,9 47:12 48:14 51:11 55:15 69:17 70:15 102:12 103:20,22 109:1 126:4 127:19 128:15 132:10 140:7 141:13 **distinction** 44:4 50:14 135:12 **distinguish** 51:13 **distracted** 162:7 **distribution** 7:10 137:16 **distributors** 92:14 **diverging** 49:15 **division** 6:9 **docket** 95:8 **dockets** 71:6 **document** 25:8 99:12 **documents** 99:10,10 99:19 **DOE** 2:3 ,4,5 ,6,7,8,9 2:10 4:4,18,22 6:17 8:6 12:6 17:15 ,20 18:15 19:3 22:14,18,20 31:22 34:5 ,10 36:5 38:11 ,18 39:13 43:6 51:5 ,6Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 170 55:12,14 56:14 57:21 59:22 68:9 70:11 72:19 73:6 73:10,17 81:20 83:9,13 85:20 89:8,10 90:21 91:11 94:2 98:1 98:14,17 100:18 104:19 105:12,14 105:18 106:6 107:15 ,16 108:4,8 108:14 109:19 111:16 114:4,14 116:5 122:4,16 123:9,14,19 127:5 127:20,20 128:21 132:9 136:3 ,15 142:1 145:1 ,8 154:6 156:8,15 157:19,20 **DOE's** 17:17 18:16 23:16 27:2 42:15 51:18 52:13 55:9 80:19 81:12 82:15 115:2 128:8 **dog's** 45:14 **doing** 21:11 30:19 35:17 36:17 52:12 62:3 80:4 81:19 83:17 96:12 99:10 101:10,16 103:1 116:18 117:17 118:16 126:6 128:5 129:11 ,15 134:17 140:11 142:22 152:15 153:5 ,7 **domestic** 34:13 **Donald** 2:14 **door** 49:20 **double** 42:17 104:8 104:11 **doubt** 63:21 **downstream** 145:16 **draft** 23:16 38:11 51:8 54:15 **drawing** 26:15 93:13 **drive** 49:18 **drops** 8:20 **drug** 16:22 **dry** 32:3 **dryer** 145:15 **duct** 44:3 **ducted** 44:9,11 **due** 28:13 35:8 36:10 70:3

**duplications** 75:16 **duty** 104:8 121:16 140:2 **dynamics** 50:3 **E E**  4:1 ,1 **earlier** 40:8 56:13 57:11 78:3 81:7,8 81:15 93:17 128:13 130:10 135:14 144:20 147:17 **early** 7:9,12 15:4 80:22 88:15 ,17 125:22 147:14 **ears** 38:5 134:6 **easier** 13:3 15:10 **easy** 149:1 **Eckman** 2:18 5:2,2 32:13 ,13 111:11 112:20 121:4 123:22 124:17 145:11 147:9,21 **economic** 121:15 **Economy** 69:16 **edges** 32:20 **education** 30:11 **EER** 85:6 **effect** 64:6 **effective** 72:1 ,1 ,6,10 83:11 88:6 97:5 138:21 150:11 154:6 **effectively** 100:10 **effectiveness** 138:17 **effects** 13:22 **efficiencies** 60:20 131:5 139:6 **efficiency** 5:15 ,18 6:8,18 7:10 39:8 41:17 44:5 47:22 60:19 61:13 ,15 62:1 ,6 69:19 74:8 92:4,7 136:9 137:12 138:1 141:4,7,10 163:9 **efficient** 28:22 69:16 131:20 137:22 138:9,15 138:15 141:18 150:22 **effort** 86:7,12 88:9 128:2 154:15 **efforts** 26:18 123:17 127:4

**eight** 131:16 **either** 14:5 34:10 66:11 90:16 106:16 108:9 **electric** 7:5 ,8 **Electrical** 2:15 7:4 **electrics** 14:17 **electronically** 156:21 **element** 76:11 **eliminate** 156:18 **eliminated** 89:1 **email** 42:9 124:17 142:9 156:2 157:18 **emailed** 42:1 ,3 ,4 69:8 **emailing** 155:8 **embedded** 47:14 **emphasis** 105:3 **employ** 46:7 **employee** 11:17 **enables** 72:8 **enact** 103:14 **enacted** 70:11 **encompasses** 66:21 90:18,19 **encourage** 10:1 131:17 140:10 **encouraging** 37:5 **ended** 50:7 110:16 135:6,9 **endorse** 53:3 **endorses** 52:19 **ends** 45:7 **Energ** 2:20 **energy** 1:1 ,6 2:1 3:1 5:18 6:5 ,8 8:6 24:7,8 29:6 69:16 73:11 74:8 84:18 84:20 85:2,7,9 92:7,9 100:4 105:16 107:11 121:16 126:22 129:9,16 136:9 137:15 141:4,7,20 142:5 ,6 150:11 163:12 **engage** 118:7 **engagement** 81:7 117:16,18 **engaging** 55:12 **engineer** 5:7 14:2,2 **engineering** 5:8 72:16 101:13 **engineers** 79:18

**engrained** 74:9 **enhance** 158:2 **Enterprises** 3:3 **entertain** 35:7 **entirety** 96:20 **entities** 99:6 **envelope** 24:7 42:17 49:7,11 **environmental** 6:18 **envision** 130:13 **EPA** 137:15 141:2 142:5 **EPAC** 5:4 **equation** 145:12 **equipment** 18:20 31:3 48:11 50:16 50:18,20,22 51:3 54:5 61:21 62:1 ,7 63:13 70:21 80:7 84:21 85:7 126:2 148:4 **especially** 30:10,16 59:17 74:7 **ESSA** 148:7 **essence** 103:11 **essentially** 73:17 96:3 99:11 106:12 108:18 110:1 118:15 **established** 55:5 58:10 153:15 **estimated** 24:21 **estimates** 23:18 **et** 12:11 ,11 ,12 14:15 151:19 **ethic's** 4:8 **evaluate** 58:10 **evaluated** 108:13 **event** 104:14 **everybody** 12:6 38:21 42:5 114:9 164:5 **exactly** 43:16 48:7 75:19 84:6 88:3 90:15 98:6 103:19 **example** 60:20 88:17 96:14 129:1 **examples** 21:9 49:5 **exception** 26:22 **excited** 5:12 132:1 **excuse** 53:20 **Executive** 6:11 **exercise** 84:6 **exercising** 39:14 **exhaust** 44:14 **exist** 98:18

**existing** 50:18 **exists** 118:4 **expect** 53:6 148:10 **expectations** 126:20 126:21 128:12 **expecting** 129:15 148:14 **expense** 30:18 **experience** 4:13 7:5 7:13 34:7 59:18 83:19 100:11 **expert** 43:20 **expertise** 31:13 33:16,21 85:17 **experts** 36:19 52:10 65:1 126:11 **explain** 13:9 132:13 **exports** 119:14 **express** 49:11 **expressed** 92:12 **extend** 44:16 **extended** 129:2 **extension** 16:13 36:12 37:19 87:18 **extent** 34:18 98:3 111:18 114:22 121:11 122:3 130:18 131:2 **extra** 86:12 103:6,7 **eyes** 38:5 **F F**  2:15 **face** 152:2,2,4,5 ,6,6 152:13 ,13 153:5 ,6 154:13 ,13 **face-to-face** 10:1 ,2 **facet** 130:12 **facilities** 34:13 79:17 **fact** 11:15 28:10 61:3 64:13 74:17 84:18 86:14 95:15 98:14,15 99:2 118:8 128:12 135:6 140:6,22 **factor** 49:20 71:19 **factors** 133:8 **factory** 61:11 62:19 **facts** 66:12 **failed** 50:18 **fair** 36:15 **fairly** 17:1 35:4 55:5 135:10 145:17 148:20Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 171 **fall** 18:22 35:20 39:19 **falling** 121:4 **false** 29:20 **familiar** 17:5 93:10 **family** 32:2 **fan** 39:9,11 40:14 43:7 44:1 ,1 ,4,5 ,16 44:18,18 45:6,10 46:20 49:22 50:14 50:15 ,17,18 51:1 51:13 ,13 68:18 **fans** 38:20 39:2,12 39:17 40:7,14,16 41:3 ,4 42:21 43:3 44:2,8,14,16 45:3 45:3 ,4,4 46:7,8,9 46:17 47:6,10,14 48:11 50:8,12,19 50:21 51:9,16,17 52:20,21 ,22 53:1 56:20 57:7 58:11 64:12 68:10,12,19 **far** 28:10,17 32:19 35:15 50:6 94:1 99:21 125:13 134:6 141:8,14 **fashion** 41:15 52:10 **fast** 100:12 **faster** 141:15 142:3 **favor** 37:16 **feature** 76:20 **features** 13:22 **fed** 141:15 **federal** 1:3 4:4,5 11:17 38:11 ,13 109:4 115:7 132:15 141:17 142:5 **feedback** 54:12 143:6,17 154:21 **feel** 42:22 47:6 48:8 160:20 **feels** 17:21 80:19 154:6 **feet** 16:20 36:8 **fell** 127:22 **felt** 16:17 **fence** 105:9 **fewer** 154:5 **field** 46:9 123:6 129:9,14,14,16 133:9 **fifteen** 122:15 **figure** 32:11 35:19 57:16 61:21 62:9 65:22 78:21 88:14

96:6 122:2 124:9 156:22 **figuring** 94:8 **filed** 94:3 107:18 115:15 **fill** 13:21 14:10 **final** 21:2 22:6 28:14 56:15 70:3 71:13 ,17 73:3 77:1 78:19 83:11 86:9 87:1 93:15 94:18 97:9,13 99:11 102:6 106:10 112:8 147:2 150:2 **finalized** 22:12 106:12 148:16 **find** 64:16 101:2 108:15 133:18 **finding** 115:1 **findings** 57:9 **fine** 2:8 67:4 68:16 69:4 117:17 142:22 156:3 **finer** 30:12 **finish** 15:19 **finishing** 15:18 68:9 **fire** 16:20 36:8 **firing** 73:11 **first** 4:9 6:13 7:12 11:12 21:14,21 23:9 24:2 26:3 37:8 41:12 48:10 54:10 57:22 59:18 60:1 76:19 105:4 115:13 119:13 120:5 126:19 135:4 137:18 144:17 158:1 160:15 ,18 162:5 163:13 **fit** 65:14 **fittings** 139:11 **five** 17:10 68:4 123:14 126:20 130:22 131:16 145:2 152:19,20 **flammable** 141:5 ,6 **floating** 113:6,7 **floor** 8:15 ,16 9:14 15:12 116:10,11 **flow** 45:6,8 **focus** 23:14 127:4,7 128:15 148:22 149:1 **focused** 32:6 43:9

47:12 93:8 **focusing** 26:18 **folks** 12:8 20:22 46:7,7,8 55:21 92:17 136:3 151:12 158:2 163:6 **follow** 89:10 118:14 123:3 132:19 134:22 **follow-up** 47:17 133:11 **followed** 21:3 79:22 88:16 **following** 117:22 124:6 **follows** 73:6 163:5 **food** 14:13 ,13 **forces** 124:8 **forget** 120:3 139:19 **forgive** 88:11 ,12 **forgot** 68:10 **form** 11:15 12:20 13:8 14:21 15:7 28:16 36:21 37:22 46:3 57:7 66:15 73:2 108:7 113:18 113:20 143:11 ,12 143:14 **formal** 39:4 **format** 51:11 **formation** 37:12,20 67:12,14,19 68:10 80:13 100:13 **formed** 39:5 67:22 101:21 **former** 6:5 **forming** 37:16 100:21 **forth** 9:3 80:9 **forthcoming** 87:19 **forum** 109:1 **forums** 107:1 **forward** 44:16 48:6 60:16,17 83:22 84:15 105:11 121:13 122:4 137:5 139:12 156:7 **found** 57:2 62:11 116:8 **foundation** 124:13 **four** 16:5 36:4,10,13 36:14 37:4,17,19 44:2 59:19 100:13 104:5 111:21

125:16 133:5 152:3 **Fourth** 135:7 **frame** 56:1 66:7 89:22 94:9 **framework** 39:18 43:7 **frankly** 123:2 **frantic** 16:18 **freezer** 24:12 **freezers** 13:16,16 24:13 **Freimuth** 2:7 **frequently** 151:15 **Friday** 160:13 ,17 160:18 **friendly** 156:6 **front** 27:5 ,9 73:19 121:7 149:2 160:16 161:13 **fruitful** 151:17 **FTC** 142:6 **full** 22:20 41:10 70:16 71:17 75:20 90:16 91:4 119:3 **fully** 41:17 98:22 141:6 142:14 **function** 20:12 **functions** 71:4 **fundamental** 17:6 121:13 ,15 **fundamentally** 35:12 **furnace** 44:15 48:16 50:1 71:2,21 72:4 132:22 162:15 ,16 **furnaces** 5:9 48:17 69:8 70:19 99:4 113:19 132:9 **further** 34:18 129:5 146:13 157:11 **future** 61:19 63:7 65:2 114:18 **G G**  2:20 4:1 **gallery** 9:5 162:8 **gamut** 13:21 35:2 41:10 92:4 **garage** 138:14 **garages** 139:4 154:3 **gather** 129:16 **gavel** 163:22 **GC** 2:5 **GE** 3:6 5:17 35:2,3 **general** 15:14 57:9 61:10 89:17 95:10 99:8 108:17 110:10 115:11 130:4 156:19 163:5 **generally** 44:3 ,10 44:19 **generation** 29:9 **getting** 7:9 28:12 35:18 43:15 46:1 46:15 67:21 101:21 103:22 121:7 137:10 140:22 141:5 147:6 149:6 155:3 **give** 36:9,14 55:22 61:1 63:2 66:4 87:13 ,16 88:4 118:10 121:1 123:12,12 143:5 147:2 **given** 10:4 26:13 32:15 55:18 58:21 77:10 86:13 103:10 111:12 126:10,18 149:11 **gives** 124:9 **giving** 47:19 75:9 102:21 147:21 **glad** 10:2 26:8 27:12,17 74:19 **glean** 31:19 **go** 4:10 8:22 12:16 18:4 27:7 28:17 32:11 33:10 40:15 41:15 47:11 49:19 50:12 52:13 54:15 61:18 64:19 66:1 72:5 73:20 74:6 80:9 85:11 91:14 109:3 ,17 110:11 111:1 116:21 118:8,11 119:15 121:2 126:16,19 129:11 ,19 138:15 139:22 145:21 146:13 ,19 148:11 150:20,22 155:16 161:6 **goal** 36:3 48:20 **God** 132:7 **goes** 50:17 51:13 53:12 54:19 55:1 62:21 70:20 84:11 98:15 146:4Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 172 **going** 8:8,22 9:1 11:7,8 18:3 ,22 23:10 24:22 26:16 34:21 35:9,15 ,20 36:18 38:18 40:19 40:21 46:3 ,6 48:6 51:7 52:4 53:19 55:1 56:20 57:1 59:7,11 ,12,15 60:1 61:2 63:22 64:18 65:22 66:2 66:10,14 72:2 77:20 79:4,12 81:17,21 82:20 84:14,14 86:16,17 89:11 90:16 102:9 103:6 105:7 109:2 111:13 112:12,18 113:1 114:19 116:2,9 119:11 ,22 124:3 129:13 133:5 134:8 137:1 137:11 ,17,17 139:12 142:12 143:11 145:1 146:10,12,12,15 147:4,7 148:17,19 150:3 ,11 ,18,22 152:18 153:16 154:3 ,5 ,11 155:6 157:16,17,19 162:20 **good** 7:13 ,14 8:17 9:15 12:1 ,8 15:7 15:14 16:20 17:2 17:21 19:12 23:19 25:1 30:8 32:8 38:22 42:22 45:17 46:20 53:9 54:13 54:20,22 55:15 68:5 ,18 72:20 75:11 82:14 84:11 97:7 111:14 122:22 124:13 125:20 128:7 130:8 135:1 137:3 140:8 154:6 157:15 160:20 161:15 **gotten** 33:3 **government** 20:19 29:19 65:15 78:11 78:14 104:5 109:3 126:13 141:17 **governmental** 141:13 142:2 **grant** 19:13

**granted** 16:9,11 **great** 4:14 8:12 47:9 115:5 137:3 140:7 147:16 157:4 158:3 159:5 161:17,17 **greater** 43:4 **greatest** 150:11 **Grid** 10:15 **grips** 32:16 **ground** 37:2 95:16 **group** 11:4,14,16,17 12:21 13:5 ,8,15 14:20,22 15:5 ,7 16:4,10 18:14 19:6,7,14,14 20:2 20:17 21:15 22:4 23:8,20 27:21 30:3 32:1 ,7,10 33:11 ,18 34:5 ,8 37:15 ,16,21 38:1 38:4 40:22 46:6 51:20 52:20 54:16 54:16,19 56:18,22 57:7,16 58:1 ,3 ,9 58:22 59:1 ,3 ,4,6,9 63:16,20 64:8 66:15 67:13 ,15 ,20 67:22 68:10,12 73:2,22 74:20 75:15 80:12,14 82:18 95:9 100:10 100:11 101:1 ,3 ,4 105:11 108:2,3 ,8 109:2,9 110:2,3 ,4 110:11 ,11 ,13 ,14 110:15 111:3 113:18,21 114:19 114:20 126:17 131:2 141:20 148:20 151:15 153:8 157:14 162:13 **grouping** 32:9 **groups** 6:18,19 10:16 11:7,9 31:1 34:11 35:20 44:9 74:8 91:19 100:21 101:9 105:16 125:14,17 126:9 132:4 140:11 152:16 **growth** 25:14 **guess** 5:3 7:8 11:12 12:7 15:15 23:4 24:1 25:16 36:6

47:4 49:3 ,4,5 62:8 64:5 91:13 92:20 103:11 114:11 116:18 120:20 122:15 130:8 146:22 156:14 **guessing** 148:19 **guest** 116:9 **guidance** 58:21 **guide** 64:3 **guideline** 57:9 **guidelines** 89:10 **guys** 52:14 54:14 133:19 145:9 146:3 **H Hagerman**  2:6 4:22 4:22 11:14 12:5 ,5 15:20 24:11 ,20 37:6,6 38:10,15 49:16 50:17,21 59:17 **half** 16:6 45:17 118:19 **hammer** 108:3 **hamstringing** 122:10 **hand** 37:21 38:9 55:4 68:13 137:19 157:7 162:3 **handout** 126:18 **happen** 61:13 72:11 78:11 107:1 ,3 112:14 **happened** 27:18 69:18 81:14 129:12 130:14 149:15 **happening** 40:1 62:15 76:21 94:22 101:14 122:19 **happy** 32:2 60:8 64:2 114:14 137:4 **hard** 35:22 43:15 113:5 ,9,9 115:21 116:1 125:3 132:13 134:22,22 135:1 137:16 **harder** 79:2 112:20 **Hardy** 92:14 **Harris** 37:11 67:9 161:2 **hash** 106:8 **hashed** 108:10 **head** 40:15 93:19

**headlights** 124:2 **hear** 15:13 48:8 52:10 81:17 89:11 90:7 144:22 149:6 **heard** 35:15 36:1 57:6 71:22 80:17 130:9 151:10 **hearing** 36:6 63:19 106:5 **heat** 14:3 ,4,15 ,16,16 14:17 **heater** 139:15 **heaters** 148:3 **heating** 2:12 47:20 69:14 98:22 148:4 162:13 **help** 6:1 12:21 23:20 33:22 38:18 39:1 44:12 54:17 76:22 97:8 106:10 123:13 126:14 127:7 149:14 150:17 **helped** 77:1 **helpful** 23:7 30:14 123:17,18 155:3 **helping** 5:9 **helps** 148:22 **hi** 5:13 23:22 35:11 **high** 77:18 78:1 122:6 138:9,18 150:16 151:22 **higher** 44:19 77:15 138:10 139:6 **highlight** 123:16 **historically** 60:16 127:21 **history** 7:19 19:13 70:7 86:4,12 89:4 103:5 111:12 126:17 **hit** 148:17 **hitters** 23:12 **hold** 24:19 159:19 161:5 **holding** 36:8 105:22 **holistically** 145:22 **home** 3:4 5:14 25:16 30:19 164:3 **homes** 25:15 139:4 **homework** 91:17 **Hon** 2:19 7:20,20 11:2 28:4 34:4,4 38:10 57:11 75:12 75:13 90:6,6 103:18 112:10

113:4 140:19,19 161:8,8,16 **honestly** 18:2 83:22 **honor** 7:7 **Hootman** 52:18 **hope** 21:1 38:7 56:2 67:22 78:18 79:1 95:9 120:22 136:19 **hopefully** 10:6 66:14 120:11 139:6 153:14 161:1 163:1 **hoping** 9:17 51:19 52:14 **horsepower** 43:4,8 43:12,12 53:10 57:12,13 **host** 106:6 **hour** 112:12 115:18 116:4 118:19 **hours** 24:13 ,15 ,17 **house** 139:19 140:21 **housing** 15:22 16:10 74:20 75:10 **huge** 83:2 137:12 **Hungerford** 2:20 6:4,4 25:20 100:3 100:3 109:18,18 158:18 **hurdles** 123:9 **HVAC** 30:4 50:13 58:13 64:14 75:15 **hybrid** 13:17 24:12

**I ICC**  136:10,14 **ice** 8:3 12:10,11 ,11 12:11 13:18 14:6 14:14,14,14 24:17 27:1 ,1 29:2,5 ,8,9 29:10,12 72:22 76:15 ,17 82:1 84:6,7 96:13 ,22 **idea** 15:14,14 17:21 37:3 61:15 62:5 66:4 74:14 107:22 116:18,18 118:1 120:1 124:10 129:6,7 130:10 137:22 157:4 **ideal** 64:5 **ideas** 117:12 118:17 119:20 120:12Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 173 154:11 156:9 157:11 **identified** 126:21 **identify** 23:9 61:3 65:7 124:12 129:22 **identifying** 26:17 61:4 145:11 **IEER** 84:20 **Illinois** 3:2 **imagine** 10:8 62:4 **immediately** 149:2 **impact** 42:18 46:2,6 133:15 142:1 **impacts** 46:10 **implement** 148:5 **implying** 94:15 **import** 34:13 **importance** 46:13 **important** 24:4 40:22 44:4 47:15 67:7 70:14 104:20 132:16 150:4 **imported** 34:6 **importers** 34:7,15 **imposed** 90:2 **improve** 103:13 106:10 137:13 152:21 153:4 **improved** 143:17 **improvement** 6:2 88:16,22 137:12 **improving** 152:15 **inappropriate** 61:2 **inbox** 134:9 **incentivize** 138:13 **inclination** 58:20 **incline** 44:18 **inclined** 26:19 **include** 27:12 46:9 58:8,19 64:10 65:3 ,3 66:17 144:20 145:20 **included** 27:4,4 127:20 **including** 5:15 6:17 13:22 66:8 71:1 71:21 92:5 105:16 163:10 **inclusive** 121:14 **increase** 138:1 **increasing** 26:6 **Independence** 1:7 **independent** 10:15 **independently** 98:18 **indicate** 70:6

108:21 **indicated** 92:15 **indication** 23:19 77:5 **indirectly** 138:3 **individual** 33:15 49:9 53:12 60:19 144:6 **individually** 155:9 **industries** 126:12 **industry** 8:5 14:11 15:10 44:21 45:1 45:13 51:12 53:7 55:6,8,11 71:22 72:13 98:2 124:7 133:15 144:9,14 160:11 **inefficient** 139:3 **inerts** 19:15 **influence** 95:4 **information** 23:6,16 83:6,9 89:2 106:13 117:11 121:13 124:14 142:19 145:17 147:11 **initial** 9:13 ,22 39:19 42:9 43:8 61:20 69:17 70:5 ,15 89:3 96:19 **initially** 43:6 50:22 **initiated** 110:6 **initiating** 123:10,15 123:19 **initiative** 116:15 117:7 118:12 119:22 122:5 **input** 83:16 88:19 94:20,20,21 121:15 145:12,17 146:18 **inputs** 18:18 145:16 **inserted** 95:2 **inserting** 95:1 **inside** 44:15 46:7 **installed** 25:15 61:11 ,12,16 62:7 **instance** 82:11 131:1 **instances** 41:4 71:4 **Institute** 2:13 69:15 **instruct** 64:3 **insulated** 14:8 **integrated** 49:18 50:2,13 84:19 85:8

**intended** 81:3 93:14 **intending** 101:19 **intention** 93:17 133:16 **intentionable** 135:18 **inter-related** 19:1 **interact** 118:17 **interaction** 26:11 79:15 85:1 88:5 132:6,17 **interactions** 67:2 **interactive** 9:2 **interagency** 141:1 **interest** 33:17 35:1 71:15 **interested** 38:7 85:6 137:6 148:20 159:15 **interesting** 30:6 39:13 **interestingly** 74:19 **international** 10:5 34:15 39:3 **internet** 139:11 **interpret** 151:10 **interpretations** 132:21 **interval** 53:10 **intervals** 43:12 **interview** 84:8 89:15 **interviews** 106:17 **intro** 12:3 **introduce** 7:18 **inventories** 125:2 **investigate** 61:4 138:11 139:2 **investigation** 64:11 **investing** 138:8 **investment** 139:21 **investor** 92:9 **invite** 105:15 106:7 **invited** 101:15 **inviting** 104:5 **involve** 154:20 **involved** 5:4 6:22 7:9,9 21:18 28:8 29:4,16,20 39:12 41:7,18 53:6 55:14 56:13 63:10 75:15 ,15 78:2,11 81:15 83:1 135:2 149:9 **involvement** 70:1 **irrelevant** 96:1

**isolated** 81:18 84:12 **issue** 15:21 27:12 33:15 37:14 49:21 50:10 53:16 58:16 59:8,14,14,18 60:1 61:1 70:21 78:3 ,21 82:17 86:9 89:11 99:4 99:11 ,16 101:2 110:11 116:22 117:3 120:22 122:16 124:11 ,21 129:9,11 135:5 137:19 139:2 141:8 144:1 150:2 150:6 155:3 163:17 **issued** 39:18 90:21 **issues** 9:15 12:18 13:1 ,6 15:1 16:2 21:13 22:19 27:19 31:15 33:3 ,8 35:19 38:22 39:11 40:13 ,17 41:10,11 41:13 46:15 52:11 56:16,17,19 59:3 59:6,15 76:3 85:5 93:3 94:14 95:14 96:6 98:6,7 99:13 99:15 100:5 ,7,19 101:1 ,17 104:22 120:15 ,20,22 121:5 122:17,18 123:2 124:12 126:15 129:22 133:18 137:9 141:1 ,22 153:19 154:22 **item** 11:12 29:15 115:11 126:19 **items** 11:21 113:22 120:17 126:20 127:17 151:22 **J J**  2:22 **JACBOS** 86:3 **Jacobs** 30:1 ,1 48:9 56:7 61:7,8 62:13 62:17,20 63:5 65:20,20 68:16 79:10,10 84:17 87:21 ,21 131:22 131:22 134:14 135:19,22 142:4,4 143:18 144:3

**Jakobs** 2:21 5:6,6 **jam** 159:2 **Janet** 2:7 **Jen** 22:2 26:21 68:21 69:5 76:5 ,6 88:10,12 97:14,15 122:7 157:8 **Jenn** 67:10 **Jennifer** 3:4 5:13 **Jeremy** 125:7 **job** 65:8 112:19 135:1 140:16 **Joe** 2:6 4:22 11:14 11:16 12:2,5 15:17 24:20 37:6 38:10 52:18 53:5 **John** 2:3 ,15 4:3 ,15 7:1 ,3 9:9 10:3 ,4 11:9 16:9,9,14,16 19:3 ,20 20:1 21:10 23:4,5 31:22 35:11 36:5 36:19 37:13 47:3 47:17 53:9 58:14 59:22 60:11 62:12 64:4 67:4 68:9 72:19 74:4 79:7 80:17 82:12,14 91:16 94:17 105:8 107:15 108:18 113:13 114:5 115:12 128:18 136:22 149:5 151:13 152:17 154:20 156:5 159:6 160:8,19 162:12 **John's** 70:20 129:6 129:6 150:21 **joined** 33:21 **joint** 102:5 **jointly** 69:20 **July** 103:21 104:1 **jumbled** 79:14 **junction** 47:14 **June** 87:6,13 ,13 104:2 112:16,18 113:2,8,12 114:3 114:6 158:19 161:10,13 ,13 **justify** 66:3 **K Karim**  2:12 11:1 69:12,13 98:10,13Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 174 99:20 **Kauffman** 10:14 **keep** 16:20 40:4 53:19 56:20 101:17 102:1 120:1 132:15 151:8 **Kelley** 3:6 5:16 **Kelly** 21:6 31:4,5 33:10 48:8 148:11 **Ken** 10:15 **Kevin** 3:2 **key** 71:19 84:9 86:6 99:2 127:6 140:14 **keyed** 89:20 **kick** 147:14,16 **kind** 13:21 14:10,21 15:1 ,8,11 ,11 ,21 21:22 25:5 31:6 33:7 49:14 56:5 57:1 58:13 ,21 73:18 79:14,20 80:1 ,18 88:5 90:13 93:12 94:8 94:15 95:21 101:4 103:14 109:22 126:6 130:20 132:22 133:7 142:10 148:14 155:19 163:4 **kinds** 14:19 88:17 109:1 126:5 **Kline** 3:6 5:16,16 21:7,19,22 31:5 ,5 34:2 42:7,20 43:15 49:3 50:14 50:19 92:20 93:20 94:6,11 130:7 145:18 148:21 160:11 **knew** 33:14 116:13 **know** 4:11 ,14 10:4 10:20 11:15 12:9 14:12 16:2,3 ,5 ,5 16:11 ,21 17:10 19:5 ,12 20:1 ,2 21:15 22:21 23:11 23:18 24:4,6,16 24:19 26:14 27:1 27:7,8 28:21 30:5 30:6,12,20 31:11 31:17 32:1 ,3 ,10 33:21 35:18 36:17 38:6 40:12 42:16 42:18 43:19 45:12 45:20 46:2,10,18 47:9 48:18,20

49:12 51:6,8 52:1 52:21 55:8,14 58:21 59:8 60:3 60:12,15 61:5 63:2,8,16,17 64:7 65:11 66:2 67:8 70:20 71:11 73:14 74:3 ,11 ,11 ,18 75:20 76:1 79:12 79:20 80:17 81:4 81:12,20 82:9,17 83:2,5 ,7,12 84:12 84:13 ,20 85:20 86:10,14 87:2,22 88:5 89:14 92:1 92:16 93:6,7,8,9 93:22 94:7,15 ,18 95:6 96:14,21 97:16,20 98:1 ,2,4 98:5 ,6,7 99:13 100:12 103:11 104:8,22 106:4,16 106:19 107:13 110:18 112:12 114:14,21 115:21 116:20 119:1 121:22 123:1 124:4,7,11 ,21 ,22 125:1 129:10 130:11 ,13 ,13 ,15 130:21 ,22 131:2,9 131:10,17,19 132:12,19,20 133:4,6,13 ,20 134:15 ,16 137:7 137:20 138:14,18 138:22 139:9,10 139:20 140:2,12 140:15 ,16 142:15 143:12,18,22 144:9 145:19,21 147:1 148:12 149:1 ,6,10,21 150:21 151:10,15 151:18,20,21 152:9,19 153:3 ,11 154:7 156:9 157:6 162:6 163:7 **knowing** 86:7 **knowledge** 12:11 39:10 70:16 71:17 106:9 **L labeling**  125:22 **labelling** 29:20

**labels** 142:6 **Labs** 101:10 **lack** 49:11 77:10 144:13 **laid** 73:18 **lamps** 137:9 **language** 133:17,17 **large** 38:13 61:19 70:8 145:17 **larger** 40:10 43:9 44:17,20 50:6 64:14 **largest** 70:6 86:3 **late** 6:13 112:12 159:13 **laughing** 153:21 **LAUGHTER** 74:16 **launched** 7:1 9:14 **law** 20:21 137:18 150:1 ,4,14 **lawsuit** 149:20 **lawyers** 78:21 **lead** 6:1 114:14 124:10 **Leader** 5:17 **leading** 155:19 **leads** 95:19 137:19 **lean** 48:4 **leaning** 109:20 **learn** 31:9 32:2 **learned** 155:22 **learning** 48:3 **leave** 30:18 107:5 115:19 139:18 162:22 **leaves** 61:11 **led** 149:19 **left** 107:18 115:18 **legal** 78:15 79:2 89:4 96:2,6 99:18 109:4,22 110:8 128:3 ,4,9 141:22 150:7 154:17 **legally** 105:12 **legislation** 163:12 **legislatively** 97:5 **lessons** 31:8,19 **let's** 37:9 43:17 51:15 57:5 68:6 72:3 92:1 160:5 **letter** 39:3 ,6 40:3 42:6 69:8,17 75:19 92:5 ,15 105:13 **letting** 124:7 **level** 8:2 48:5 ,6 62:1 62:6 93:21 108:20 111:13 ,15 ,21 130:19,20 132:5 133:9 150:16 **levels** 59:10 60:7 75:22 76:2 80:8 93:16 106:22 108:13 122:2 130:18 136:17,18 136:19 **liberal** 73:12 **lieu** 73:5 **life** 74:17 86:22 **lifetime** 62:2 **lighting** 5:17 131:1 **limit** 100:22 **limited** 66:8 93:8 111:19 135:5 **limiting** 162:14 **limits** 128:8 **line** 22:17 29:18 34:21 45:9 97:20 101:18 106:1 **lines** 29:11 80:7 142:2 **lingering** 56:17 **liquid** 32:4 **list** 59:12 93:3 115:10 129:19 130:5 ,7 137:2,3 140:7 152:1 ,22 154:7 156:16,17 157:18 160:19 **listed** 92:7 106:7 **listen** 66:1 **listening** 67:11 **litigation** 75:3 **little** 7:18 8:13 12:3 22:17 24:14 42:16 42:20 43:18 44:12 47:1 57:20 67:21 84:17 86:1 88:15 89:12 101:6 105:22 108:3 115:17 130:9 138:21 144:13 146:13 153:5 157:14 **live** 61:14 79:7 **load** 90:16,18 91:4,5 91:5 **local** 141:15 ,19 **logic** 70:22 **logical** 14:1 ,3 ,10 **long** 49:7,10 59:12 112:22 130:10,14 134:20 **longer** 50:2 87:12 131:12 145:22 **look** 12:13 30:8 45:12 51:20 60:18 61:5 64:11 70:11 71:11 88:7 90:1 96:12 99:12 100:18 119:8,11 124:17 129:11 131:13 ,18 145:22 148:5 ,17 156:15 156:16 159:8 **looked** 25:1 44:15 65:6 99:21 153:19 **looking** 35:6 60:7 79:16 98:17 117:12 123:14 137:15 138:17,19 141:21 147:10 151:19 156:9 **looks** 88:1 164:2 **looming** 13:2 **lost** 23:13 144:5 **lot** 5:18 7:5 8:8 9:15 13:2 14:11 16:1 16:19 17:15 18:17 24:5 ,6 27:13 28:6 28:12,13 29:1 30:5 ,11 34:21 45:19,22 52:8 53:22 54:3 ,12,13 61:13 71:14 72:5 75:13 78:7,7,7 81:4 83:5 91:7 98:19 113:10,20 114:22 123:20 124:20 130:11 131:4,7,10,10,11 132:4 133:21 134:10 137:22 139:13 ,21 154:7 159:3 164:2 **lots** 29:13 44:22 46:6 85:20 141:15 **love** 130:10 158:13 **lumped** 44:7 **lunch** 155:16 **M M**  2:14,21 **machine** 29:8,12 **machines** 8:3 29:2,5 **mail** 151:19 **main** 22:19Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 175 **maintaining** 61:22 **major** 58:16 71:10 100:19 101:5 130:22 142:1 **majority** 56:16 91:21 122:18 **maker** 76:15 ,17 **makers** 13:19 24:17 27:1 ,1 73:1 82:1 84:6,7 96:13 ,22 **makeup** 31:13 33:11 ,18 34:10 **making** 14:6 91:3 95:20 98:14,17 107:13 ,13 **man** 12:10 **manage** 151:11 **managed** 149:17 **manager** 4:15 5:8 **mandated** 97:6 **Mandyck** 7:1 10:3 37:13 **manner** 30:10 **manual** 136:13 **manufacture** 7:22 8:3 62:1 75:10 **manufactured** 47:10 **manufacturer** 15:22 16:10 28:3 30:22 62:18 63:1 63:14 74:20 76:15 83:8 **manufacturer's** 131:6 **manufacturers** 2:15 3:5 5:14 7:4,8 20:4 30:17 31:2 34:12,15 39:9 44:1 46:2 47:20 53:15 60:18 74:9 76:17 78:4 83:6 85:4 88:1 91:3 102:18 121:21 132:21 **manufacturing** 2:19 2:21 7:21 ,22 91:6 127:6 137:8 **map** 14:10 130:14 **maps** 59:10 **march** 1:12 124:8 **marching** 79:20 **mark** 36:14 37:19 **market** 29:7 39:11 49:22 50:5 ,6 51:1 141:14 **Marketing** 141:19

**marketplace** 35:5 **match** 51:2 129:14 **material** 44:6 **materials** 91:18 **matter** 46:11 85:3 99:18 114:15 **McCabe** 2:22 6:1 162:10,10 163:4 **mean** 12:6 35:12 55:4,14 56:18 60:5 62:2 63:7 64:16,17,20 65:3 65:7 66:1 67:17 74:14 79:7 80:1 ,6 96:12 97:4 98:14 114:6 123:3 132:6 134:21 146:8 149:10 152:1 155:8 156:8,9,13 **means** 41:13 43:16 78:16 100:13 **measure** 90:18 **measures** 90:21 **mechanical** 14:2 **mechanism** 90:4 102:21 **medium** 14:5 ,5 25:6 **meet** 30:4 40:19 47:21 79:2 86:22 101:19,20 102:11 104:13 151:22 152:2 154:12 158:16 **meeting** 1:1 ,3 2:1 3:1 4:7 9:3 ,13 ,22 12:8,10 23:9 33:13 34:1 37:8 38:14 60:1 69:9 92:13 98:5 101:8 101:12 105:17 106:6,9,17 107:16 107:17 114:6 116:12 119:4 120:9 142:17,19 152:7,8 154:14 155:6,7,16,20 156:4 157:1 ,6 159:15 160:11 **meetings** 9:11 29:3 32:5 59:20 69:22 75:14 92:2,3 101:14,16 102:3 ,9 103:2 105:1 ,4,13 125:6,8,9 132:2 154:19 156:11 ,13 159:3

**meets** 151:15 **member** 5:21 38:4 38:10,11 52:19 **members** 4:11 10:22 11:3 12:4 23:11 37:10 38:7 53:4 69:2,18,18 73:14 74:21 92:4 102:17 114:20 **membership** 38:12 110:22 **memory** 76:8 **mention** 15:17 **mentioned** 36:7 57:19 97:16 100:9 113:20 116:19 135:14 144:20 **mentioning** 151:14 **merit** 128:15 **mess** 79:14 134:18 **met** 6:13 16:6 39:9 49:8,12 101:7 151:20 152:3 ,13 **method** 126:5 143:3 **methods** 26:14 60:7 66:18 90:9 143:7 **metric** 21:21 84:19 85:2,9 90:3 ,7,17 90:22 143:21 **metrics** 41:13 105:20 **metro** 46:18 **mic** 8:20 98:11 **Michael** 2:22 162:9 162:10 **microphone** 8:19 43:19 **middle** 90:3 ,7 **midst** 96:3 **Mike** 5:22 **mile** 103:6 **Miller** 5:20,20 11:1 23:22,22 25:9,21 41:20,20 42:3 ,11 43:13 ,13 53:20,21 63:15 64:15 65:9 65:17 68:12,14 69:11 74:2,3 ,17 75:7 77:16 78:6 79:6 87:8 97:3 103:17 111:4 114:5 115:4 122:13 ,13 140:5 ,6 144:1 146:6 149:14,21 151:3 ,4 151:6,13 152:6,9

153:15 154:17 155:11 ,14 157:16 158:5 ,9,13 159:1 159:10 160:1 ,6,19 161:5 **million** 153:19 **mind** 15:19 60:12 61:1 122:6 148:22 **mind-boggling** 62:8 **minimize** 140:2 **minimum** 79:19 **minute** 68:4 **miscellaneous** 5:1 11:13 ,20 12:16,22 13:10,11 ,20 17:18 19:16 24:6 30:7 30:13 38:1 40:10 42:18 55:4 69:5 **missed** 119:19 162:5 **missing** 99:3 **mixed** 45:6 **model** 93:18 **modeling** 77:1 91:8 101:11 127:3 **models** 18:21 80:9 83:3 **modifications** 133:22 **modify** 133:16,17 **moment** 10:11 **momentum** 102:1 **Monday** 124:18 **money** 137:13 **monopolize** 121:2 **month** 16:7,11 35:17,21 36:2,12 36:14 37:18,18,19 54:22 87:10 101:13 102:10 105:5 159:13 **months** 12:7 16:5 32:14 35:22 36:4 36:10,13 46:18 54:9 55:2,3 ,13 ,16 55:19 59:19 67:17 67:18,19,20 77:17 87:9,14,14,15 ,17 100:12,13 103:20 103:21 120:3 ,10 124:5 140:21 147:21 **morning** 116:8 **morphed** 45:1 **motion** 35:9 64:6 66:15 113:17 114:4 **motor** 43:12 49:19 53:10,11 ,11 ,14 138:5 **motors** 27:7 43:11 52:9 53:9 **mouth** 153:1 **move** 27:14 37:9 68:19 86:7 103:12 105:11 112:7 121:13 122:4 137:5 156:7 **moving** 39:16 60:15 60:17 91:5 114:22 145:13 **MR.COHEN** 155:5 **multi-department** 90:17 **multiple** 18:1 19:15 40:12 **mushrooms** 44:13 **mutally** 51:3 **N N**  4:1 **Nadel** 69:13 ,15 **nailed** 41:14 **name** 4:12 5:6,20 13:12 **named** 92:5 110:2 **names** 149:21 **narrow** 101:1 111:13 **narrowed** 156:17 **narrowing** 93:21 **NASEO** 24:3 **national** 2:15 7:4 10:14 106:22 **nature** 13:5 28:13 **near** 8:17 114:18 137:10 **necessarily** 9:2 29:5 32:3 33:19 51:2 55:10 122:21 133:16 155:4 **necessary** 55:9 121:12,13 **need** 13:5 15:9 24:9 25:18 26:10 27:13 31:12 33:4 36:13 37:3 ,4 41:14 48:2 52:9 61:5 87:1 ,6 97:19 102:13 ,19 105:5 114:11 116:22 119:15Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 176 120:5 124:4 134:1 139:14 140:16,20 142:13 143:8 152:1 154:21 161:10 **needed** 16:8 130:16 **needs** 8:8 37:1 42:14 74:7 78:10 86:21 87:3 ,5 116:21 **neg** 53:8,17 76:16 78:13 101:21 102:14 103:1 ,13 **negotiate** 12:2 17:21 22:16 56:14 65:13 66:11 73:3 73:15 75:22 81:13 81:21 95:15 104:7 105:2 108:19 **negotiated** 7:11 20:17 22:7 26:12 28:8 39:5 41:2 51:7 69:19,21 71:8 72:8 83:18 83:20 95:16 120:18 130:15 ,21 140:11 **negotiating** 22:8 26:20 127:6 **negotiation** 20:3 22:9 27:22 34:11 39:22 43:10 46:13 53:3 64:18 73:18 76:8 77:6 82:9 88:18 93:4 94:12 97:18 98:20 101:21 104:13 **negotiations** 18:4 21:17 27:15 38:6 39:20 41:19 76:12 80:20 81:7 107:4 127:11 **NEMA** 7:4 23:5 64:5 82:14 105:8 **NEPA** 135:7 **never** 96:1 123:1 133:16 151:17 155:21 156:1 **new** 4:11 5:21 ,21 6:20 10:22 11:3 ,8 12:13 25:16 49:18 50:6 55:9 58:7 79:14 80:18 81:20 84:22 85:2 89:5 ,6 90:10 96:3 110:11 116:21 117:22 133:4 138:8,9,18

139:6 141:10 151:3 **news** 122:22 **nice** 6:3 9:9 25:19 25:19 157:9 **niche** 44:22 **niches** 45:1 ,2 **NODA** 54:11 ,12,21 84:7 **nodding** 40:15 **NODES** 125:6 **noise** 23:13 **nominate** 110:22 **nominated** 110:14 **nominees** 117:11 **non-compressor** 13:18 24:15 **non-trivial** 149:12 149:13 **NOPR** 57:21 77:21 78:19,22 82:8 84:2,7 88:21 96:8 96:13 102:5 106:11 108:14,15 132:8,11 147:1 **NOPR's** 71:11 73:8 73:15 **NOPRs** 86:8 **normal** 9:3 72:11 73:6 89:19 101:3 110:12,15 **northwest** 2:18 5:3 92:8 **note** 8:21 **notes** 94:17 126:16 127:18 129:19 156:11 **notice** 37:7 38:12 45:19 73:7 103:19 110:22 111:9 119:8,8,14 155:13 155:14 **notices** 11:18 65:22 68:1 111:5 115:7 **notion** 19:19 71:20 **notwithstanding** 72:20 **NRDC** 149:12 **nth** 138:7 **nuances** 14:11 ,12 14:20 **nuclear** 119:12,14 **number** 9:10 25:4 25:15 39:8 40:9 89:11 115:7,8 127:2 153:18

**numbers** 42:17 115:2 129:14 **O O**  4:1 **Obama** 8:14 **objections** 29:2 103:14 **objective** 75:17 **obligation** 47:21 136:8,12 **obligations** 150:8 **obsessing** 144:7 **obviously** 34:16 47:15 51:10 52:1 80:20 91:8 119:22 129:7 134:6 146:8 146:19 **occasions** 114:1 **occur** 95:20 **occurs** 151:13 **oddball** 45:11 ,13 **odds** 77:14 **OEM** 52:6 **offer** 34:21 37:14 55:9 106:19 130:2 **office** 6:1 95:11 110:10 **offices** 34:13 **official** 4:4 12:10 **Oh** 42:1 158:7 **okay** 4:3 15:15 21:19 23:3 ,5 25:9 30:2 34:2 37:9,21 38:9,19 42:11 47:16 48:1 57:5 61:6 66:15 ,18 67:5 ,8,15 68:1 ,5 ,8 68:16 69:12 101:11 109:14 110:10 112:8 113:13 114:13 120:8 125:15 133:10 135:22 141:17 142:22 143:16 144:18 146:17 158:12 160:6 162:4 163:20 **old** 44:22 85:2 90:1 90:9 138:4,19 139:2 **older** 138:10 **OMB** 87:3 **on-going** 96:5 **once** 22:3 ,19 61:10 61:11 71:8,14 72:4,4,16 109:1 140:8 153:8,17 **ones** 7:12 18:10 23:12 56:13 60:3 60:4 70:10 87:12 130:9 145:3 147:2 147:4 150:12 154:4 **ongoing** 120:1 ,4 147:3 **onus** 60:18 **open** 15:12 27:22 72:18 83:6 94:9 94:11 106:4 109:1 110:5 115:14,15 126:4 **opening** 9:7 64:20 77:21 96:19 **operated** 61:17 **operating** 28:22 117:6 **operation** 70:9 **operator** 138:4 **opinion** 17:15 33:19 37:14 54:8 55:2 65:2 74:7 76:4 **opportunities** 26:17 44:22 63:3 88:18 127:1 131:19 **opportunity** 9:1 25:7 40:6 57:8 60:17 69:1 70:8 70:13 71:10 86:10 92:18 106:6 129:7 **oppose** 67:12 **opposed** 36:3 45:9 48:5 50:15 63:4 93:4 103:1 ,3 113:16 138:8 153:7,13 **opposes** 37:20 **opposite** 48:7 **optimize** 48:18 **option** 138:20 156:7 **oranges** 28:20 **order** 33:4 72:15 87:7 105:3 **organization** 92:6,6 **organizations** 6:16 6:19 41:18 132:18 **organize** 153:12 **original** 45:19 51:3 63:13 137:2 163:12 **orphan** 29:4

**other's** 4:13 33:6 **ought** 32:17 **outcomes** 127:5 **outdated** 116:20 **outlet** 44:3 **output** 44:10,11 144:14 **outset** 57:2 80:18 **outside** 107:3 123:17 **outsider** 45:14 82:16 **outstanding** 13:1 **overall** 50:3 71:21 **oversee** 4:19 **overview** 11:6 **owned** 92:9 **owner** 8:10 85:10 138:4 **P P**  4:1 **P.M** 164:6 **P:amela** 2:10 **package** 19:13 69:7 86:2,16 131:14 **packages** 8:4 44:17 114:17 **packet** 39:3 69:9 **page** 117:5 **pages** 133:2 **paid** 47:13 **Pandora's** 64:21 **papers** 116:7 **parallel** 18:12 20:15 21:12 121:19 **parallels** 19:19 **paralysis** 80:1 **paraphrase** 66:14 **parent** 9:22 55:20 125:10 126:10 **part** 9:17,18 19:22 36:17 39:6 43:4 53:12 54:10 59:8 65:8 77:4 86:6 87:21 90:18 91:4 91:5 98:2 102:10 102:22 103:3 107:6,17 109:7 122:5 132:10 143:9 148:2,6 162:18,18 **participants** 16:17 **participate** 28:1 34:17 38:3 105:12Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 177 105:17 107:17 110:7 **participated** 19:21 19:21 30:2 69:22 117:19 **participating** 20:4 34:16 75:5 107:16 121:22 **participation** 30:14 30:22 53:7 66:6 **particular** 9:12 34:1 37:14 64:8 82:10 82:11 ,16 85:21 135:8 136:10 **particularly** 59:13 124:12 137:6 140:3 147:15 **parties** 29:14 76:11 101:7,18 112:6 123:17 **partly** 136:4 **partners** 73:17 **parts** 26:5 33:11 ,12 61:9 62:5 63:11 159:15 **pass** 116:7 **passage** 163:12 **passed** 19:5 88:13 162:1 **passes** 114:4 **passing** 116:8 **path** 27:7 45:9 60:3 73:20 **paths** 84:4 **patio** 29:13 **pattern** 56:10 **pay** 81:10 **peak** 85:8 **peg** 161:11 **people** 8:18 9:4 10:12,19 21:5 23:17 24:4 30:5 32:10 33:13 35:18 40:5 41:3 ,4 45:21 48:14 55:1 ,7 63:10 66:4 75:4 81:4,10,15 ,21 82:1 84:9 91:3 ,19 103:20 104:20 105:21 106:7 110:6,14,16,22 111:9 123:6,16 124:20 132:13 134:11 136:3 138:13 139:10,17 139:20 140:15 142:8 150:3

151:18 152:19,20 153:12 155:1 157:20 161:22 162:1 **people's** 139:3 ,4 140:15 154:2 **percentage** 47:6 137:12 **perfect** 96:14 **perfectly** 156:3 **perform** 49:9,10 **performance** 129:17 **performs** 14:4 **period** 15:18,19 16:19 17:1 24:19 36:2,3 56:4 95:14 96:4 115:14 157:10 **person** 9:10,13 10:9 10:10 33:20 52:21 65:21 68:18 163:8 **person's** 131:5 **personal** 17:15 54:8 74:7 **personally** 48:3 61:6 65:8 107:17 124:15 137:4 **perspective** 31:17 42:19 46:1 47:18 52:13 60:22 64:12 80:17,19 81:17 82:15 131:5 ,15 **perspectives** 131:6 **Peterson** 10:15 **phase** 116:18 117:2 117:15 **phases** 56:18 **phone** 9:11 ,21 10:9 52:18 67:11 114:10 151:17,18 152:8,9 **pick** 8:20 19:4 **picked** 12:6 **picking** 163:18 **piece** 19:7 31:10,18 50:15 61:20 62:7 145:20 **pieces** 50:7 70:21 133:1 **pike** 120:18 **place** 53:18 80:20 148:22 **places** 107:12 134:2 **plan** 79:17 119:8 153:3

**plane** 127:18 **plans** 54:13 97:19 117:9,21 **play** 90:4 127:14 142:12 152:14 **played** 77:3 **playing** 133:9 **please** 7:19 37:21 38:8 162:3 **pleasure** 68:17 **plus** 134:10 **point** 4:9 9:4 33:6 33:10 38:2 39:20 42:15 43:17 54:20 63:18 67:6,7 71:7 73:13 75:10,11 84:12 86:15 89:22 91:12 94:16 104:19 106:20 107:20 128:4,13 137:4 139:9 142:11 ,20 143:8 144:8 150:21 162:3 ,21 163:3 **points** 82:14,15 90:19,20 94:11 147:19 162:11 **policy** 6:13 107:13 163:13 **Pontillo** 2:10 **pool** 29:13 148:3 **poor** 137:22 139:3 **position** 27:5 112:16 134:16 **positions** 153:17 **possible** 38:14 58:8 58:17 68:1 83:12 152:2 **possibly** 13:2 108:5 112:15 133:21 154:2 **post** 82:8 84:7 **posted** 117:4,9 **potential** 11:8 24:9 37:18 40:12 61:12 61:14 67:1 130:11 153:8 162:17 **potentially** 15:4 123:16 **potentials** 24:18 **pound** 29:12 **pounds** 29:9,10 **Power** 2:18 5:3 **practical** 36:2 133:7 **practice** 84:14 107:11

**pre-existing** 110:2 **precedence** 32:8 **precedent** 73:15 **precludes** 34:14 **precursor** 79:19 **predominantly** 34:6 34:10 **preference** 113:12 **prejudice** 59:1 **preliminary** 25:7 36:21 82:20 108:14 **preparation** 155:10 **prepare** 155:19 157:6 **President** 8:14 **Presidential** 116:15 **pressed** 155:1 **pressures** 44:19 **presumably** 110:6 **presume** 100:19 **pretty** 14:9 16:14 16:18 17:20 20:15 40:7 55:22 56:6,8 56:9 59:12 83:5 86:21 92:15 115:9 125:16,18,20 127:8 134:20 138:18 159:12 **prevalent** 141:3 **prevent** 122:19 **previous** 127:19 **previously** 29:3 98:9 **priced** 138:18 **principal** 163:14 **prior** 125:6,8,9 **priorities** 140:16 156:22 **prioritization** 140:14 142:21 149:18 **prioritize** 140:10 145:7 153:16,17 154:14 **prioritized** 115:10 **priority** 122:6,10 152:1 **private** 39:7,20 41:8 41:19 43:5 ,9 46:9 69:22 92:2,3 101:22 102:12 104:22 114:18 154:19 **privately** 101:8,14 101:20 102:13 103:1 107:2 **probability** 77:19 78:1 **probably** 8:14 16:13 19:4 35:8 39:1 40:10,12 43:20 50:9 55:3 69:9 77:18 85:22 87:14,15 ,18 103:8 103:9 113:6 115:5 116:2 117:18 119:18 134:10 145:6 153:18 154:18 **problem** 28:12 110:8 122:15 141:12,20 **procedure** 4:19 13:1 21:9,13 22:3 ,4,11 22:18,20 27:11 31:9,11 ,15 32:15 33:2,9,20 55:6 61:17 91:1 121:14 122:1 123:12 124:3 135:8,12 144:9 **procedures** 13:4 21:18 28:17 32:19 35:22 55:5 121:8 130:12 133:15 134:12 144:8,10 145:1 ,3 147:14,16 162:12,17 163:5 163:15 ,16 **proceed** 17:3 19:15 32:11 **proceeding** 162:22 **process** 5:22 6:2 7:11 ,14 8:21 15:4 18:10 19:20 20:1 21:1 ,3 28:16 33:22 46:5 53:8,8 57:20 69:21 72:12 73:6,7 76:10 77:3 79:21 ,22 81:7,8 81:12,20 83:7,18 83:21 84:8,8 88:16,20,22 89:16 95:2,2 99:3 100:17 101:4 103:4 106:5 109:4 109:5 110:8,12,15 110:21 111:2 115:12 118:12 120:4 121:5 ,20Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 178 123:7,20 134:7 140:9 143:10 144:17 149:8,17 149:18 **process-wise** 114:8 **processed** 44:20 110:1 **processes** 20:21 **processing** 158:14 **product** 12:1 14:6 25:13 26:6 27:19 28:15 ,18,19 40:18 40:19 41:5 47:7 49:8,10 50:2,11 54:6 71:20,21 72:3 83:11 89:19 98:16,21 99:1 ,7 111:20 125:15 129:2 130:14 141:7,19 **productive** 164:2 **products** 11:20 13:21 14:3 ,10 16:4 17:7,8,16,18 19:15 24:6 25:11 25:12 26:5 27:3 ,6 30:7 34:6,14 38:1 39:14 40:1 ,17 45:2 46:8,9 47:11 51:22 55:9 72:2 73:9,10 80:2 85:19 89:9,10 120:17 128:11 130:20 131:1 ,8 138:1 ,3 139:3 141:14 142:1 144:7 **professionals** 14:22 **program** 4:15 ,20 6:3 7:19 55:8 63:1 90:22 119:10 133:3 ,4 137:15 ,17 141:3 142:18 154:1 158:14 163:11 ,17 **programs** 93:9 133:5 142:5 163:9 **progress** 16:21 18:3 45:20 111:22 128:20,22 **prohibit** 141:16 **prohibits** 99:9 **project** 2:17 6:12,16 **projects** 153:22 **promise** 95:17 **promote** 127:6 **propeller** 45:4

**properly** 26:15 **property** 41:12 **proponents** 128:7 **proposal** 22:21 26:10 33:2 71:18 73:1 95:18,20,21 96:3 ,15 ,19 108:9 108:10,12 113:2 156:15 **proposals** 81:5 136:16 **propose** 41:9 **proposed** 11:19 17:17 20:18,20 22:5 70:6,16,18 71:8 81:1 95:13 104:7,16 125:20 162:15 ,16 **proposing** 12:14 **pros** 58:11 64:11 **protocol** 40:3 **prove** 153:1 **provide** 30:17 33:21 88:2,6 101:6 106:18 127:15 142:18 143:5 ,16 **provided** 83:6,9 **provides** 52:21 **providing** 71:4 **provision** 97:11 135:14,16 **provisions** 135:16 136:7 **provoked** 21:10 **PTSP** 36:20 **public** 1:1 9:1 ,3 12:8 20:21 37:13 39:22 46:12 73:9 98:5 106:16 115:20 117:11 ,16 117:17 118:8,9,18 155:20 159:15 161:21 **publication** 87:4 97:12 **publications** 113:8 **publish** 20:19 95:17 102:6 **published** 36:21 ,22 70:18 84:1 104:15 104:16 **pump** 14:3 ,4,15 ,16 14:16,17 59:18 129:1 **pumps** 19:5 ,5 ,7 21:17 31:9,18 49:17,17 **purchase** 63:11 **purchases** 53:1 **purpose** 81:3 101:16 108:1 147:9 **pursue** 76:12 **purview** 51:18 **push** 39:21 **pushing** 72:7 123:22 124:1 **put** 11:18 25:21 37:7 40:11 41:5 ,9 42:19 51:8 54:10 57:5 60:18 63:13 69:21 73:1 ,19 76:4,15 82:6 83:22 92:1 96:15 99:16,17 110:21 112:15 114:16 120:9 130:5 134:15 141:12 148:13 ,19 157:19 159:19 160:4,9 161:3 ,5 **puts** 40:16 105:3 **putting** 26:12 30:7 99:14 112:13 **puzzle** 82:22 **Q quad**  24:21 ,21 25:5 **quads** 40:8 **qualitative** 13:4 **quarter** 153:2 **question** 15:16 21:8 21:10 24:1 ,5 28:16 34:5 37:2 40:8 47:5 49:17 50:4 51:5 57:10 58:5 61:7,8,9 64:16 65:10 67:16 68:21 77:17 79:9 90:6 91:13 92:20 92:21 93:9 97:4 103:18 114:6 115:13 121:10 137:2 142:11 143:7 149:5 154:17 156:20 161:1 **questionable** 122:11 **questionnaires** 123:5 **questions** 17:6 21:9 27:2 28:13 40:5 ,6 47:2,5 91:11 103:11 119:17 120:13 124:6 133:20 134:10 147:18 **quick** 8:21 21:7 68:2,3 158:22 **quicker** 114:22 **quickly** 4:10 115:9 **quite** 20:13 77:12 107:19 **quorum** 153:14 **quota** 50:13 **R R**  4:1 **R&D** 5:8 **radios** 91:2 **raise** 37:21 38:9 120:21 ,22 121:3 162:3 **raised** 9:13 41:11 98:12 100:6,8,20 121:6,7 163:6 **raises** 40:13 ,17 142:10,11 **raising** 68:13 **ran** 49:16 **range** 41:2 77:13 **rated** 43:3 **rating** 51:1 61:20 65:21 **re-analysis** 82:5 99:16 **re-design** 72:2 **re-open** 93:17,18 **re-upped** 10:19,21 **reach** 34:18 80:7,10 94:4 104:17 **reached** 20:2,9 39:19 104:14,16 125:18 **react** 89:21 **reacting** 153:7 **reaction** 130:4 **reactive** 82:19 **reacts** 136:11 **read** 47:1 48:10 52:16 94:3 115:10 **reading** 37:7 **ready** 54:15 56:2 104:1 130:15 131:15 157:12 **reaffirming** 108:9 **real** 85:4 104:20 149:14

**realistic** 87:16 **reality** 29:11 **realized** 39:21 **really** 7:13 9:16 12:7,20 17:10 21:10 23:12 25:18 28:5 ,21 30:21 32:10 39:21 47:13 48:4,15 49:1 51:18 56:10 60:18 72:13 87:5 ,5 ,13 98:21 105:7 116:16 119:15 122:18 124:9,11 126:6 127:10 131:14 132:5 134:17 135:5 137:20 139:2 140:20 141:18 145:3 ,4 147:13 ,14 148:5 151:22 154:4 156:7,12 158:22 159:1 **realm** 26:12 41:10 **reams** 88:7 **reason** 52:12 58:18 102:22 134:3 137:7 152:12 154:19 **reasonable** 16:14 32:18 36:16 54:10 55:13 63:12 **reasons** 17:19,20 51:6 63:19 75:2 81:6 102:1 104:19 105:11 ,19 111:11 124:21 133:13 134:9 144:12,12 163:14 **rebuild** 138:6,19,20 **rec** 76:16 103:13 **recall** 21:8 **received** 15:3 **recognition** 46:13 **recognize** 56:3 73:10 87:22 102:2 **recognized** 21:6 **recognizing** 37:4 101:18 **recollection** 77:8 **recommend** 23:7 65:14 **recommendation** 20:18 41:16 71:13 71:16 76:18 102:5Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 179 108:5 ,19 109:3 ,13 **recommendations** 82:18 95:9 118:4 118:10,11 ,18 130:2 **recommending** 77:14 78:17 101:19 **recommends** 39:4 69:20 **record** 23:2 37:13 68:7 125:20 **recorded** 155:7 **recycling** 154:1 **reduce** 72:15 **reducing** 73:11 **redundant** 64:7 **refer** 13:11 **referenced** 127:22 **references** 39:6 69:17 **refine** 106:2 **refinement** 83:17 **refrigerants** 141:6,6 141:11 **refrigeration** 2:13 5:1 8:1 ,4,5 11:13 11:20 12:17,22 13:10,11 17:5 ,18 18:20 19:16 30:4 38:1 40:11 42:18 55:4 69:3 ,15 141:2 **refrigerator** 7:21 13:16 24:12 138:14 **refrigerators** 13:17 13:18 24:16 153:21 154:2 **reg** 53:8,17 78:13 101:20 102:14 103:1 **regard** 27:11 **regardless** 63:21 121:18 **region** 71:3 92:8 **register** 38:11 ,13 115:7 132:16 **regular** 112:7 **regularly** 135:10 **regulate** 28:17 **regulated** 32:18 41:12 47:8 62:7 63:5 **regulates** 63:1 85:20 **regulating** 12:19

16:3 50:7 58:11 63:6 **regulation** 54:4 116:19 138:2 **regulations** 116:22 133:8 **regulatory** 5:15 ,16 55:10 116:5 119:5 119:10 121:5 131:11 146:11 ,14 **reinvigoration** 116:17 **relate** 44:12 **related** 19:10 44:5 121:6 137:15 ,16 149:5 **relates** 64:12 **relationship** 85:5 90:16 **relative** 17:5 139:22 **relatively** 55:18 **relevant** 4:13 120:15 **remain** 133:22 **remarks** 11:10 **remember** 76:13 **remembered** 76:10 **remind** 20:16,22 **remiss** 73:13 **remotely** 139:20 **removed** 88:21 **renewables** 122:10 **reopen** 75:17 **rep** 4:18 **repair** 138:7 **repeatedly** 129:8 **repertory** 146:4 **replace** 50:1 139:5 ,8 **replaced** 63:7 139:15 **replacement** 49:22 50:5 ,11 51:1 61:9 62:5 63:11 **replacements** 49:21 **replicate** 86:16 **report** 36:14 37:19 55:20 57:8 112:17 113:8,11 114:2 142:18 161:9 **reports** 117:9 **represent** 24:3 86:11 162:11 **representation** 126:12 **representations** 91:4

**representatives** 6:18 92:11 105:15 **represented** 39:10 92:14 **representing** 7:6,7 38:6 **repurposes** 96:11 **request** 46:12 76:15 89:2 93:2 **requested** 73:2 97:20 **requests** 117:10 **require** 13:4 78:22 **required** 20:21 37:7 39:16 70:2 89:5 135:9 **requirement** 90:1 111:8 128:6 148:6 **requirements** 100:15 123:4 **research** 6:9 65:5 **reserve** 161:20 **residential** 8:2 29:10,19 79:11 **resolve** 13:1 ,3 14:21 100:19 **resolved** 33:4 35:19 **resource** 122:21 127:21 **resources** 66:3 **respect** 40:14 121:10 135:15 **response** 54:12 72:3 **responses** 123:6 **responsibilities** 38:4 **responsible** 61:22 62:15 **rest** 21:15 76:4 128:3 **restriction** 63:13 **result** 28:14 106:10 127:22 **resulted** 89:7 **results** 17:2 29:1 94:21 154:5 **resumes** 65:15 **retired** 163:8 **retrospective** 117:4 117:15 **returns** 149:7 **review** 87:2 116:5 117:4,15 123:7 133:15 **reviews** 127:20 **revise** 54:14,18 107:8

**revised** 116:21 **revising** 124:3 **rewarding** 138:4,6 **rewrite** 133:5 **RFI** 89:4 90:21 147:21 148:3 **RFI's** 147:13 **Rheem** 2:21 5:7,10 30:2 65:21 80:13 132:1 **rich** 151:2 **rid** 138:13 **ride** 127:18 **right** 5:9 9:8 14:4,8 14:11 ,18 18:15 ,16 19:5 20:18 22:7 23:17 24:11 29:7 35:1 36:10 43:2 45:9 51:16 55:20 55:22 57:1 58:1 59:2 62:13 ,17,20 62:20 65:15 ,17 68:6 69:6 77:7 78:9 79:3 81:22 82:9,10 85:15 ,18 87:4,14,16 88:22 91:2 94:1 ,3 ,14,19 96:17 99:2 103:14 103:15 104:4,6,8 104:11 105:2 107:7 115:6 119:16 122:3 123:3 130:16 133:2 135:13 ,20 136:2 141:8,21 142:13 ,14 146:5 ,7 149:3 ,7 150:13 157:20,21 **ripple** 46:11 **road** 62:16 139:18 **robust** 94:2 **rock** 49:16 **role** 52:14 127:14 142:12 152:14 **roof** 44:13 **rooftop** 48:13 **room** 1:9 8:12,13 36:18 74:20 102:15 ,19,20 103:2,12 107:5 ,18 108:1 114:10 117:19 136:3 140:4 158:21 **rooms** 159:11 **rope** 149:7 **Rosenfeld** 6:6

**rotated** 10:13 ,19 **rotating** 10:18 **roughly** 148:18 **round** 51:11 52:10 52:13 109:19 117:14,14 118:12 **roundtable** 33:5 **route** 74:12,13 **rule** 5:1 12:7 14:2 17:19 18:15 ,17 20:18,20 21:2 22:5 ,6 46:6 51:7 57:13 68:18 70:2 70:3 ,6,7,14 71:9 71:13 ,17 72:15 73:3 77:2 78:19 81:1 86:9,11 87:2 88:16,20,22 89:9 93:15 94:18 95:13 97:9 102:6 103:8 104:16 108:15 115:14 125:20 132:22 147:2,8 149:8 150:2 162:15 ,16 **ruled** 136:15 **rulemaking** 1:2 7:10,11 15:22 20:21 22:9 25:2,4 26:9,12,20 30:11 34:17 35:2 39:5 41:2 48:10 52:20 53:8 69:20,21 70:12 71:8 72:8 72:12 73:6 76:7 76:10 83:20 85:21 86:1 88:15 93:1 ,5 95:15 ,16 96:5 ,20 100:15 103:5 107:20 110:6 112:7 120:18 121:19 127:4 141:9 **rulemakings** 5:10 6:7 25:3 28:8 79:13 121:9 147:15 150:10 **rules** 70:16,18 94:18 95:16 99:11 113:20 121:10 127:8 128:5 132:20 144:16 148:15 ,16 150:20 **ruling** 90:1 104:7 136:16Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

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**run** 4:21 5:1 50:9 55:8 107:9 121:19 159:6 **running** 116:3 **S S**  1:1 4:1 78:22 **S&E's** 14:22 **safe** 14:13 ,13 164:3 **safely** 8:16 **safety** 73:14 **sales** 29:11 **satisfy** 98:22 **save** 92:9 **saving** 70:7 **savings** 24:9,18 42:19 70:8,12 119:12 126:22 129:13 150:12 **saw** 13:3 21:5 148:2 **saying** 48:1 55:19 62:12 81:14,15 93:19 98:19 149:5 151:16 159:5 **says** 29:8 105:13 115:14 124:2 141:17 150:1 **scenarios** 51:15 107:10 **scenes** 83:10 **schedule** 10:4,8 18:16 35:12,14 38:14 65:4 116:4 119:19 121:12 128:1 143:5 144:19 146:3 ,8,9 146:11 ,12,20 148:10,14 152:22 153:2,7,11 159:2 159:4,7 **schedules** 123:12 124:22 146:9 154:22 **schools** 36:7 **scientist** 6:8 **scope** 25:2 26:18 32:15 35:13 43:2 43:6,8 51:21 57:16 59:19 60:1 60:7,22 65:2 66:17,21 93:7,14 93:14 96:21 100:5 100:22 101:3 119:4 157:7 **scoped** 43:6 **scoping** 35:19 **Scott** 36:19 37:10 67:8 161:1 **scratch** 33:9 97:2 **screen** 4:7 117:5 162:8 **se** 129:3 155:4 **second** 9:17 10:19 19:18,18 105:17 108:21 117:14 138:14 140:16 152:4 154:1 163:4 **secondary** 141:22 **sections** 132:12,12 **sector** 14:22 17:11 18:8 126:14 **see** 4:7 8:20 10:2 18:9 27:17 28:11 34:20 40:15 41:16 42:7 44:13 ,15 55:1 57:10 61:2 63:8 65:14 73:12 81:6 85:10 93:18 100:6,14 101:1 103:22 109:19 112:15 114:3 117:8 120:2 134:8 137:8,18 138:12 146:3 ,11 ,12,15 147:18 148:8,17 148:22 150:10 154:2 156:18 159:6 164:4 **seeing** 37:21 67:15 76:18 100:18 102:8 **seek** 117:11 **seeking** 53:7 123:21 **seen** 25:14 41:21 103:19 111:5 134:2 136:20 156:10 **sees** 51:6 106:21 **segments** 17:11 ,16 **select** 65:19 95:4 **selected** 59:5 125:18 **sell** 35:3 80:3 ,3 **send** 123:5 160:19 **sending** 117:20 **senior** 6:8 **sense** 26:19 34:2 45:20 55:15 95:3 98:19 103:9 153:10 159:19 **sent** 56:15 117:1 **sentiment** 75:1 **separate** 48:2 54:6 99:22

**separately** 42:8 98:15 **sequence** 22:8 **sequencing** 143:4 **series** 18:11 21:11 45:1 64:19 117:10 **seriously** 60:19 87:20 **serve** 7:1 45:2 **served** 10:12 **set** 11:14 16:4 23:8 27:2 29:17 38:14 57:17 75:14 85:15 89:21 111:16 126:3 140:10 **setting** 40:18 60:12 81:19 **seven** 80:6 **shaking** 93:18 **shape** 28:16 **shapes** 45:15 **share** 85:13 120:12 143:12 157:12 158:1 ,11 **shared** 51:3 119:1 146:8 **sharing** 157:13 **sheet** 13:9 15:2 17:7 17:8,12 18:1 21:4 37:18 42:16 56:2 56:15 57:21 ,22 65:14 66:16 71:16 72:9 78:17,18,20 78:22 79:5 114:2 **sheets** 18:2 **Shelanski** 120:2 **shoot** 160:5 **short** 16:19 17:1 32:15 42:6 55:18 55:22 86:21 ,22 88:2,8 103:7 157:10 **shorter** 56:22 74:13 **shot** 117:5 **show** 81:1 142:9 148:11 **shut** 6:3 **side** 82:22 98:22 136:6 137:8 **sift** 115:8 **signed** 40:3 **significance** 21:12 **significant** 25:14 96:6 104:10 149:10,11 **similar** 13:22,22

17:6,9 20:12 72:22 75:13 77:8 **similarities** 28:6 **similarly** 33:16 **simple** 45:21 138:17 139:21 **simplify** 107:21 **simply** 82:17 103:3 152:15 **since1987** 5:4 **single** 22:8,9 **sit** 147:10 158:10 **site** 54:14 **sitting** 91:9 **situation** 50:10 70:17 72:22 96:22 98:3 112:13 **six** 17:10 36:2 120:3 120:10 124:5 147:21 148:5 ,7,17 **sized** 25:1 ,6 **sizes** 45:15 **skip** 58:2 **sliding** 143:20,21 ,22 **slightly** 141:5 **slot** 115:1 **small** 13:11 ,16,16 13:16 15:9 30:13 53:22 101:9 **SME** 33:22 **SME's** 18:5 59:4 65:18 **Smith** 40:2 43:19,22 47:9 **smoke** 46:19 **SMRF's** 13:14 **SNAP** 141:3 ,20 142:9,16 143:1 **sold** 50:19,21 52:5 53:11 71:3 **solicit** 68:11 **soliciting** 38:12 **solid** 14:16 **solution** 130:15 **solutions** 126:22 130:21 **solve** 133:21 **somebody** 40:16 **somewhat** 19:1 47:19 53:22 70:17 71:5 133:12 **soon** 38:14 68:1 123:1 161:10 **sooner** 115:4 **sorry** 10:3 31:3 79:8 91:14 92:6 151:4

**sort** 7:15 13:2,4,20 16:20 17:12 18:8 19:14 23:9,13 24:7 25:6 29:4 45:4 47:16 49:16 53:15 64:22 73:20 77:19 82:16,18,22 83:9 105:9,21 108:3 ,4 117:2 126:4 127:9 137:10,18,19 138:3 ,3 ,6 139:3 140:15 155:9 156:6,14 **sorting** 111:2 **sought** 53:15 **sound** 8:21 **sounds** 14:9 27:21 36:1 75:13 105:18 161:15 **Southern** 2:14 **space** 39:15 69:5 **sparse** 145:16 **speak** 15:20 75:20 162:3 **speaking** 33:16 **speaks** 52:17 71:13 **spec'd** 52:6 **special** 6:6 116:9 **specific** 18:18 20:7 20:8 31:1 48:5 58:16 61:3 65:5 127:11 **specifically** 32:6 33:12 54:13 58:10 60:21 **specifics** 16:2 93:10 **specified** 135:8 **spectrum** 28:5 ,10 **speculate** 24:18 **spend** 150:12 154:4 **spent** 59:18 **spinning** 139:10 **splinter** 32:7 **split** 19:6 **spreadsheet** 18:17 **spring** 154:13 158:17 **squared** 22:19 **squeeze** 153:13 **stage** 76:9 89:3 93:2 128:9 **stages** 88:15 **stake** 28:3 53:5 **stakeholder** 46:5Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 181 92:16 94:7 **stakeholders** 38:12 41:3 46:14 70:15 71:6,10 76:19 77:13 81:8 86:6 86:13 91:20,20 92:1 ,19 93:15 95:1 **stand** 86:20 **stand-alone** 27:1 **standard** 12:21 13:7 32:16 33:20 39:12 40:18,20 47:22 48:2 49:6,8 49:12 53:14 59:21 72:3 89:5 90:11 93:16,21 ,21 118:5 130:17 134:19 135:13 ,13 148:7 **standard's** 6:1 **standards** 1:2 2:17 4:6,16,19 5:19 6:11 ,12,15 ,17,21 21:18 26:3 ,4 27:2 27:6,14,17 31:12 39:17 43:11 ,12 48:4 66:16 113:21 119:5 120:14 121:20 127:3 129:1 ,1 133:15 135:15 136:5 144:11 145:20 147:15 162:14,21 163:3 ,10 **standpoint** 140:9 **stands** 84:20 **Star** 8:6 137:15 142:5 **start** 21:21 54:22 97:2 121:9 124:3 134:13 147:4,5 ,8 147:22 156:21 157:3 **started** 12:18 25:21 32:1 107:19 116:16 117:7 **starting** 32:21 37:2 54:20 137:3 148:8 **starts** 45:6 161:16 **state** 4:12 14:16 26:4 37:13 88:19 126:13 128:3 141:15 144:10 147:8 **statement** 61:8 **statements** 12:14 72:21

**states** 136:10 **status** 36:14 136:7 **statute** 39:16 70:3 ,3 86:9 89:12 90:2 96:11 135:9,16,17 **statutory** 87:19 90:4 111:7 136:12 144:1 146:11 **stays** 115:15 **step** 43:19 46:5 58:2 67:10 117:2 129:3 **stepping** 20:12 **steps** 21:2 89:1 103:7 **Steve** 2:8 10:13 69:13 ,15 **stick** 13:6 162:21 163:3 **stickier** 52:11 **sticky** 147:19 **stop** 115:21 116:1 **stored** 14:7 **storing** 14:12 **straightforward** 13:7 **strange** 45:8 **strapped** 15:8 **streamline** 57:8 127:4 **streams** 52:1 **street** 33:2 95:13 **stretch** 138:7 **strike** 163:22 **strikes** 26:18 32:13 94:6 102:11 125:4 125:9 126:8 128:13 ,20 129:20 150:5 ,14 151:1 154:9 **strong** 19:19 20:15 30:21 51:7 71:22 75:4 81:9 **strongest** 52:12 **strongly** 80:19,21 **structural** 86:1 **structure** 35:4 96:18 **struggle** 51:10 133:13 **struggled** 163:17 **study** 74:7 **stuff** 45:11 82:8 106:5 139:12 **sub-components** 63:6 **subject** 53:13 54:4

**submit** 154:13 157:11 **submitting** 108:6 **subset** 15:9 51:9 56:15 **subsets** 152:19 **subsidies** 139:1 **success** 77:15 78:1 **successful** 11:6 35:14 77:10 **sudden** 81:11 ,20 **sue** 74:22 75:5 **sued** 74:5 ,15 **suggest** 64:2 66:10 68:3 140:14 **suggested** 120:9 **suggesting** 77:13 **summed** 90:20 **summer** 25:16 87:3 87:4,5 112:22 **supplemental** 95:21 96:15 **supplied** 55:12 **support** 8:9 25:8 26:10,19 27:15 28:1 37:11 53:1 67:9 72:18 75:4 76:16 77:10 80:21 92:13 ,16 104:12 112:10 **supported** 41:17 103:8 **supporter** 7:15 **supporting** 91:19 109:21 **supports** 80:13 112:2 **supposed** 132:14 **sure** 31:1 33:9 58:7 64:20 65:5 66:19 81:22 84:2 85:2 91:15 105:7 107:4 107:8 108:16 113:14 123:21 127:4 137:1 143:13 144:16 157:18 161:19 **surprised** 142:7 **survey** 123:2,15 ,19 **suspect** 105:19 **SW** 1:7 **switch** 90:21 **switching** 84:18 **sync** 144:11 **system** 28:22 48:2,5 50:3 51:2 58:12 58:13 ,13 60:12 62:15 ,22 63:3 ,5 64:14,14 66:19 67:1 129:3 137:6 139:17 **systems** 44:20 46:10 47:20,21 60:19 62:12 64:12 66:12 70:20 128:18,19 **T T'd**  97:8,8 **table** 4:10,13 36:12 40:4 46:14 51:11 52:10,13 65:1 73:19 84:10,13 91:9 99:22 104:20 107:14 108:8 109:20 111:16 150:10 **tabled** 125:21 126:1 126:2 **tackle** 72:9 129:2 130:3 157:22 **tackled** 20:9 **tackling** 154:16 **take** 10:11 18:8 28:11 30:20 36:9 66:13 68:2,3 71:14 78:3 81:12 81:16 87:20 94:17 97:17 103:6 106:9 118:10,22 125:10 128:21 131:12,18 132:11 152:18 154:5 ,11 156:15 156:16 **taken** 117:20 **takes** 18:5 54:20 95:22 100:11 147:22 **talk** 27:16 59:11 69:2 78:6 80:8 90:8 101:13 109:2 113:21 118:13 ,15 118:20 119:21 120:16 128:20 139:17 144:15 153:16 154:3 156:3 157:13 **talked** 60:13 122:14 142:8 158:9 162:12,14 **talking** 12:18 24:2 32:20,21 43:3 47:7 51:22 80:12

91:9 99:4,5 116:14 132:8,20 135:19 147:6 **tall** 87:7 **target** 31:7,11 113:3 **targeted** 30:19,22 **targets** 48:20 **task** 59:10 122:6 157:22 **tasking** 151:18 **tasks** 125:11 152:14 152:18 **teamed** 33:14 **technical** 16:2 25:8 31:13 33:21 39:11 43:20 107:9 **technically** 20:13 158:18 **technologies** 17:9 151:4 **technology** 36:19 104:22 119:14 **telecast** 152:15 **telecom** 114:18 **teleconferences** 30:21 153:6 **tell** 12:17 46:21 52:4 56:1 62:2 88:14,14 91:18 **telling** 76:8 132:15 **ten** 7:7 17:10 44:8 68:4 154:7 **tend** 121:19 **tends** 34:5 **tension** 104:10 **tentatively** 11:19 **terawatt** 24:13 ,15 24:16 **terawatts** 24:12 **term** 10:21 13:9 15:2 17:7,8,12 18:1 ,2 21:3 37:18 56:2,15 57:21 ,22 65:14 66:16 71:16 72:9 78:17,18,20 78:22 79:4 114:2 130:10,14 131:12 **terms** 10:18,20 16:1 16:7 17:7 25:2,14 31:13 35:11 37:17 40:11 42:19 92:16 93:22 95:12 96:21 107:22 130:17 131:14 137:11 **terrible** 112:13Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 182 **territory** 80:18 **test** 4:19 11:22 13:1 13:4 21:9,13 ,18 21:20 22:3 ,4,11 22:18,20 26:14 27:11 28:17,18,19 31:9,11 ,14 32:15 32:19 33:2,8,19 35:21 36:22 55:4 55:6 60:7,15 61:17 66:18 90:10 91:1 121:7,14 122:1 123:12 124:3 130:12 133:14 134:9,12 135:8,12 143:3 ,7 144:7,9,10 145:1 145:2 147:14,15 162:11 ,15 ,16,17 163:5 ,15 ,16 **tested** 144:4 **testing** 4:20 15:11 91:7 129:10 132:14 133:18,19 134:18 **thank** 10:11 ,20,22 11:1 23:6 38:15 38:17 42:11 47:16 61:8 62:17 133:9 163:20,22 164:5 **thanks** 9:9 38:18,21 46:16 53:2 164:1 164:3 **theme** 149:6 **thermal** 14:16 **thermostat** 139:16 **thing** 4:9 8:11 25:3 25:10 28:14 31:7 35:12 45:8 53:13 60:9 81:18 82:19 83:1 111:16 118:21 121:16 128:7 132:5 135:11 136:2 138:10 139:7 140:20 143:4,20 153:20 **things** 8:8 13:15 14:13 ,21 21:11 23:7 25:12 26:14 27:13 28:13 30:9 30:13 32:20 35:3 40:15 51:9 57:1 61:5 ,13 64:10,19 72:20 75:3 83:8 83:10 85:21 88:3 96:13 112:14

126:3 ,8 128:9,10 130:6 131:3 132:18 134:2,4 135:4 137:14 139:5 140:8 142:17 144:17 152:21 154:10 156:19 157:7 158:10 **think** 4:9 7:16 9:10 11:6,11 12:8 13:12 14:1 ,20 15:3 ,6,9,14 16:4,7 16:13 ,16,17,19 17:1 ,2,19,22 18:1 18:6,13 ,15 19:4,8 19:12,20 20:14 23:15 24:4,20 25:11 ,13 26:3 ,7,9 27:4,18 29:16 30:6,11 ,15 ,16,21 32:8 33:1 ,4,4 35:8 36:17 38:17,20,22 40:3 41:6,21 42:17 45:14,22 46:17 48:12,14 49:4,13 50:8 51:5 51:9,10 52:7,9,12 52:15 ,17 53:9 54:9,17,21 55:13 55:16,18 56:4,21 57:18 59:1 ,2,7 60:1 ,21 61:6,10 63:18 64:22 65:7 65:12 66:4 67:6 69:4 71:9 72:7,12 73:4,13 75:4 76:6 76:12 77:17,18,22 78:10,13 80:8,10 80:16,19 82:13 83:13 ,14 84:4,11 84:17 85:14,20 86:12,16,21 87:14 87:15 ,21 88:8 89:3 91:11 92:21 93:14,16 94:15 97:7 98:1 ,12,20 99:22 100:1 102:2 102:8 103:11 104:18 105:3 106:19 109:16 110:19 111:18 112:3 ,5 ,20 115:9 117:16 118:6,7,13 119:1 ,15 120:6,8 121:9 122:9,11 ,20

123:8,13 124:13 124:15 125:2 126:18 127:9,13 128:6,11 ,11 129:4 130:7,11 ,18 131:3 131:4,9,14 132:4 132:7,14 134:11 134:12 136:20 137:2,3 139:11 ,13 139:20 140:6,7,9 142:14,20 143:15 144:17 145:3 ,11 145:21 146:1 147:16 148:21 149:1 ,17 150:9,18 151:9 152:10,12 153:17 154:12 157:9 162:4,8 163:2,21 164:1 **thinking** 31:6,8,16 49:5 ,6 59:17 128:22 130:20 131:18 147:19 148:12 149:16 **thirty** 133:1 **thought** 7:14 21:11 31:7,10,20 36:7 41:8 42:2 49:4 76:10 79:18 84:1 92:21 98:4 116:10 116:11 120:1 129:13 143:1 **thoughts** 54:7 57:3 72:17 118:17 151:5 **three** 11:3 16:5 ,11 19:9 20:2,5 ,10,11 27:8 32:14 35:22 36:3 54:9,22 55:2 55:3 ,13 ,16,19 59:19 67:17,18,19 67:20 77:16 87:9 87:13 ,14,15 ,16,16 93:8 97:12 100:12 111:21 152:3 **throwing** 103:4 151:8 **Thursday** 1:12 159:18 160:17 **tie** 7:19 **tiers** 80:6 **Tim** 10:13 **time** 10:2,5 ,6 15:17 15:19 16:19 17:1 24:19 30:6 36:3 ,6 36:9 37:3 ,5 41:12

43:15 53:21 55:22 56:4 64:17 65:4 87:2 88:2,8 89:21 91:12 96:11 97:20 100:7 102:11 103:3 ,7 105:10 107:19 108:10 111:9,19 115:1 ,20 116:3 ,7 120:5 ,11 120:19,21 121:2 128:10 135:18 150:7,12,13 153:3 153:20 154:4,8,15 155:4 157:10,14 161:20 163:21 164:4 **time-line** 100:12 **timeframe** 54:22 56:22 101:4 123:18 140:17 **timeline** 100:15 112:11 **timely** 15:12 **times** 5:12 102:16 120:16 124:10 128:14 151:20 152:3 153:19 **timing** 54:7 57:3 78:13 91:14 92:22 92:22 93:12 95:12 100:5 101:17 102:7,21 127:20 128:8,11 ,12 163:2 **tip** 162:5 **Title** 48:12 80:5 **today** 8:15 9:5 ,18 15:6 40:2 55:15 67:20 69:13 76:19 86:20 102:9 119:1 126:19 127:18 128:4 134:19 138:8 143:11 146:3 151:12 156:10,16 157:12 **today's** 4:6 141:1 **told** 43:2 **Tom** 2:18 5:2 10:14 19:4,21 32:13 35:16 74:1 92:8 121:3 123:11 144:19 163:6 **Tom's** 92:6 126:14 **tomorrow** 101:9 **tool** 3:2 98:5 ,14,17 **tools** 82:7 **top** 20:7 44:13 137:10 **topic** 39:2 40:21 ,22 43:10 54:3 ,4 57:4 68:20 69:6 75:20 80:15 114:9 119:15 120:14,14 125:5 ,8 126:17 128:13 129:8 149:5 150:15 151:1 ,2 152:20,20 156:14,19 **topics** 9:12,16,19 39:1 75:18,21 115:20 117:12 121:2 125:12,21 126:5 127:16,18 130:3 137:2,5 154:16 156:21 161:21 **total** 28:7 **totally** 90:10 **touch** 19:18 143:3 **tough** 10:4,7 158:7 **towers** 116:10,11 **track** 104:11 125:20 **trade** 74:5 130:19 142:6 **trade-offs** 131:8 **tradition** 43:18 **train** 31:10 52:18 52:19 **tran** 133:6 **transformer** 7:10 19:20 20:6 83:2 138:5 ,16,18 150:21 **transformers** 19:9 20:3 ,8,11 ,11 ,14 31:22 32:1 ,7 60:2 104:4,9,15 111:12 137:9,16 **travel** 10:5 66:3 **traveling** 164:4 **tremendous** 128:1 **tremendously** 38:18 **tried** 6:2 77:9 **trigger** 89:20 **triggered** 133:14 **triggers** 123:7 **triple** 151:18 **true** 2:19 7:20 11:3 85:22 **truly** 94:11 **truthfully** 47:13 **try** 13:9 17:2 23:9Federal Advisory Committee Meeting March 19, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 183 45:20 63:4 65:22 66:13 75:3 82:20 86:6,11 ,20 102:4 103:7,9 116:2 122:1 123:5 129:21 138:7 147:7 153:3 159:6 161:1 ,11 **trying** 16:18 21:8 48:4 62:9 92:21 104:6,7,12 112:3 132:19 140:1 ,2,8 145:21 147:12,13 152:14 153:13 **tube** 45:3 **Tuesday** 117:4 **tunnel** 46:18 **turn** 9:6 11:8 12:2 21:15 22:20 46:19 68:20 73:21 115:9 139:19,19 140:2 **turned** 49:1 **turning** 47:22 84:13 **turns** 107:12 **twenty** 149:16 **twice** 101:8 152:8 **two** 12:7 16:6 19:11 23:11 27:8 35:21 36:7,12 37:18 42:9 44:8 45:17 47:4 57:11 60:13 68:16 70:21 71:4 98:20 99:6,10,21 101:8 103:20,21 106:8 113:20 115:8 117:2,3 ,14 117:15 118:12 123:16 124:4 127:2 135:4 146:16 147:22 152:2,3 153:5 ,6 158:11 160:2 162:11 **type** 14:7,8 18:4,19 20:5 28:18,19 34:7 123:2,7 **types** 19:9 20:3 ,5 ,8 20:11 ,14 32:3 ,4,6 42:21 43:1 44:2 51:21 56:19 **typical** 95:15 **typically** 34:12 45:10 81:6 89:19 111:8 114:9 133:17 **U**

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202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 184 153:8 154:15 160:2 164:3 **worked** 4:18 5:22 6:7 16:10,15 22:6 56:6 125:16 163:8 **working** 6:12,14 8:6 10:16 11:7,8,13 11:16,17 12:20 13:8,14 14:20 15:5 ,6 18:14 19:6 19:7,13 ,14 20:17 22:4 23:8,14,20 27:21 30:3 31:14 32:1 ,10 33:11 ,18 34:7,11 37:16,21 37:22 38:3 51:19 52:20 54:15 ,16,19 56:18,21 57:7,15 58:1 ,3 ,9,22 59:1 ,3 59:4,5 ,9 63:20 64:8 66:15 67:12 67:15 ,20,21 68:10 68:12,17 73:2 80:12,14 82:18 87:1 95:9 100:10 100:11 ,21 101:1 ,3 101:3 ,9,9 102:3 105:11 108:2,7 109:9 110:2,3 ,5 110:12,15 111:3 113:18,21 114:19 114:20 125:14,16 126:9,17 132:3 141:21 146:21 152:16,20,20 157:3 **works** 3:2 39:9 48:17 57:2 91:13 92:8 100:14 160:22 **workshops** 76:22 **world** 55:10 64:5 126:13 141:1 **Worse** 158:8 **worth** 88:9 103:6 124:4 **wouldn't** 59:13 65:6 107:1 110:10 123:14 **wrap** 103:10 150:16 **wrestle** 59:3 150:17 151:1 **wrestled** 41:1 53:17 126:7 **write** 36:11 74:15 104:6 144:16 **writing** 33:8 80:10

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### 185 

# TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE



# As a professional transcriber, I certify that the attached document(s) are, to the best of my abilities, an accurate transcription of audio recordings provided to the company, given the quality of the provided audio recording(s), and that I have no financial or other interest in the proceedings to which they pertain.

TRANSCRIBER