Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO

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1

 MEETING

 OF

 COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

 AT

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 1000 INDEPENDENCE AVENUES SW

 FORRESTAL BUILDING

 WASHINGTON, DC 20585

 ROOM NO.: GH-109

 May 28, 2014

Reported By: Natalia Thomas

 Capital Reporting Company
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 DOUG BROOKMAN

3 JOHN CYMBALSKY

4 TOM ECKMAN

5 LOUIS STARR

6 JAY SIVIGNY

7 CHARLES CAPPELLINO

8 GREG TOWSLEY

9 BETSY KOHL

10 STEVE ROSENSTOCK

11 LUCAS ADIN

12 BRIAN HENRY

13 ROBERT BARBOUR

14 MARK HANDZEL

15 DAN DELANEY

16 JOANNA MAUER

17 GARY FERNSTROM

18 STEVE THOMPSON

19 BRENT McMANIS

20 ALEX BOESENBERG

21 SARAH WIDDER

22 ALISON WILLIAMS
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Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 (Continued)

3

4 DANIEL WEINTRAUB

5 CHRISTOPHER LAU

6 POLI MARMOLEJOS

7 GREG CASE

8 AL ISEPPON

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,

3 everyone, and welcome. This is the sixth meeting

4 of the ASRAC Pumps Working Group, Commercial and

5 Industrial Pumps Working Group. Today is May 28,

6 2014 here in the Forrestal Building in Washington,

7 DC. So glad to see you all here this morning.

8 Let's start off by doing some instructions around

9 the room. I'll start to my immediate left.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Hi. I'm John

11 Cymbalsky, Program Manager for Appliance Standards

12 here at DOE.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

14 and Conservation Council.

15 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest

16 Energy Efficiency Alliance.

17 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve

18 Corporation.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT

20 Industrial Process.

21 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

22 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

2 Edison Electric Institute.

3 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

4 MR. HENRY: Brian Henry, Patterson

5 Pump Company.

6 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.

8 MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney, Regal

9 Beloit.

10 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

11 Standards Awareness Project.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom

13 representing the California Investor-Owned

14 Utilities: PG&E, Southern California Edison, San

15 Diego Gas and Electric, and the Southern

16 California Gas Company.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

18 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO.

19 MR. McMANIS: Brent McManis, Baldor

20 Electric.

21 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,

22 National Electrical Manufacturers Association.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific

2 Northwest National Lab.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,

4 Lawrence Berkeley National Lab.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub,

6 Navigant.

7 MR. LAU: Christopher Lau, Navigant.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And as I

9 understand it, we have a few individuals that

10 couldn't make it. You want to queue --

11 MR. HANDZEL: One more behind you

12 too.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Welcome. Please,

14 please take a seat. And would you say your name,

15 please?

16 MR. MARMOLEJOS: My name's Poli

17 Marmolejos. I'm the Director of the Office of

18 Hearings and Appeals here at the Department of

19 Energy.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Welcome. Mark, you

21 were saying a few individuals haven't been able to

22 make it?
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Greg Case, the

2 Hydraulic Institute representative, is on the

3 WebEx in the conference call this meeting.

4 Obviously Brian Henry is substituting for Al

5 Huber. And I guess, you -- Bob -- Barbour won't

6 be here tomorrow, so Steve Thompson will be

7 representing TACO. And I think that's -- and Jay

8 is representing Chuck Powell.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Okay. Glad

10 you all could make it and thanks for making sure

11 that your seat is filled, that you've got a good

12 representative there sitting in. We're going to

13 start off this morning with Lucas Adin, who --

14 Lucas and his team have prepared an agenda and are

15 going to start us off.

16 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug. So welcome

17 back, everyone. We have -- we have some

18 introductory slides that just cover what we had in

19 mind as a general agenda for the next couple of

20 days, and cover some upfront items about

21 summarizing essentially what we've done so far and

22 where we see this going for -- the Working Group
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1 will understand is the near-term goals of -- of

2 the Working Group. So the information that we're

3 going to present over the next couple days, we'll

4 talk briefly about that, but also what -- we hope

5 the Working Group will use that information for

6 and what we hope you guys are all thinking about.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Hey, Lucas, can I just

8 -- Mark Handzel --

9 MR. ADIN: Oh, yeah.

10 MR. HANDZEL: -- some comments from

11 the pump manufacturer's side and --

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah, please.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Just wanted to say that

14 obviously the last two weeks since we had the

15 WebEx have been highly active and very data16 intense, and lots of revisions and updates. I

17 mean we're taxing our engineering departments, all

18 of us, you know, to try to stay on top of all of

19 it, but it, you know, obviously we feel stressed

20 at this point because we've been seeing so many

21 changes and trying to stay ahead of, you know, the

22 new calculator versions and things like that. So,
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1 you know, from our perspective, you know, we've

2 got a lot of clarification that we hope to get

3 accomplished the next two days.

4 MR. ADIN: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would -- and I

6 would just add -- I'd ask for further question or

7 inquiry. Greg Case at the last meeting said that

8 HI put together a group of 15 engineers to

9 continue to do this analysis. I presume that in

10 this -- the intervening weeks that you all have

11 been active doing that as well.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Absolutely.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then more

14 additional information, grist for the mill here,

15 yes?

16 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. And just to

19 clarify that, so that group is meeting weekly for

20 one to two hours just on the call comparing notes,

21 in addition to processing all of our data through

22 the various different versions of calculators. It
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Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

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1 doesn't sound like it's that complicated, but all

2 the data has to be reloaded and, you know, just we

3 have to make sure there's no errors. So it's

4 time-consuming.

5 MR. ADIN: Yeah. And the

6 calculators, I believe the last version of the

7 calculator was Version 10 or something, and so far

8 that's working okay for you all?

9 MR. HANDZEL: I think we have

10 questions on it, but I think, you know, it is

11 working.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.

13 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I mean that's -- that's

14 good. I mean the fact that you guys have had time

15 to go through and that you have feedback. I mean

16 you said we're doing our job. I think we're doing

17 it a little faster than - -

18 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Well -- yeah.

19 Just obviously, you know, the versions of the

20 calculator, it's been --

21 MS. WIDDER: Hopefully this is the

22 spot where that stops.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Right. We would

2 greatly appreciate that.

3 MS. WIDDER: I hope so as much as you

4 do.

5 MR. ADIN: Right, but -- but the

6 point is, we've been putting out a lot of

7 information. We've been doing a lot of the talking

8 and we've been giving you guys a lot to think

9 about, and really hopefully we're getting to the

10 point where there's information coming back.

11 You've had time to think it over and do some

12 analysis with the tools we've provided. And -- I

13 mean that's really where we're hoping to get to.

14 MR. HANDZEL: I jokingly said that I

15 thought the presenters on the WebEx really enjoyed

16 having all of us on mute because we --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Wanted to question us

18 live --

19 MR. HANDZEL: -- the questions as

20 they come up so you could do your whole

21 presentation. So obviously it's a little bit

22 different when we're using the open exchange that
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1 we have here. But, you know. So I think it'll

2 help us here to be able to have that exchange as

3 we go back and forth.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's really why we

7 call this a working group.

8 MR. ADIN: I warned you at the

9 outset.

10 MR. HANDZEL: You did. You did.

11 MR. ADIN: Okay. So just to

12 summarize and reiterate some points I think we've

13 made throughout the meeting so far. The purpose,

14 again, is to deliver a term sheet to ASRAC with

15 recommendations for pump standards. So I think

16 that's something that's understood among everyone

17 here. But just to reiterate, perhaps a little

18 more specifically, it's the entire group's

19 responsibility to came up with a recommendation.

20 So DOE will provide information and

21 we'll provide background and analysis based on all

22 the data that we've been able to gather. But it's
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1 really the group's -- the entire group's

2 responsibility to come up with recommendations.

3 So to the extent, whether it's that you

4 don't agree with the information we've provided or

5 you have other data that's useful, I mean we've

6 obviously received some data already that's helped

7 us a lot in our analysis. But for any of the

8 Working Group members that have actual

9 recommendations on standards, that's -- you're

10 welcome to provide them and we'll -- we'll discuss

11 them. It isn't just DOE that's going to provide

12 all the information.

13 So we probably won't even have

14 necessarily a specific recommendation on a

15 standard level. It's really the job of the group

16 to come up with what those will be. So I think

17 that's really what we're trying to drive toward in

18 the near future since we only have a couple

19 meetings left to -- to come up with a term sheet.

20 So the goal of this meeting is to --

21 well, the first item there -- on there is a

22 summary report. We, I think, discussed this
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1 briefly the last meeting, maybe, but previous

2 working groups have provided to the ASRAC at a

3 point during their negotiating period an update to

4 the ASRAC just summarizing what they've done so

5 far and where they see it going.

6 It provides the ASRAC an opportunity to

7 provide some feedback. It's generally a good

8 thing to do, give some sense of buy-in from the

9 ASRAC about where the Working Group is going,

10 whether, you know, we're going in the right

11 direction, that kind of thing. So I don't know.

12 Doug, do you have anything that you wanted to

13 mention about that at all or --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: No.

15 MR. ADIN: No. Okay.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Lucas, just a

17 question.

18 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

20 Xylem. So do you have an example of what that

21 summary report may look like for some of the other

22 groups? This will be -- you know, obviously --
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1 obviously it would help us to have some pattern to

2 follow on that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: We would like to make

4 a process, though, and I want to recognize Mark

5 for being so effective this morning and stating

6 his name before he spoke.

7 MR. HANDZEL: I don't want to get my

8 hand slapped.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So well done. So

10 well done. This room and the acoustics are not as

11 great. We need to use our outdoor voices. And if

12 everyone would be a little disciplined about

13 saying your name before you speak, that's very

14 helpful. Back to Lucas.

15 MR. ADIN: Okay. Mark, to answer

16 your question, we do have examples.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Great.

18 MR. ADIN: Those were -- I think for

19 both the distribution transformers and the

20 commercial HVAC certification working groups, they

21 both had interim reports and they're in the

22 docket. I mean we can find them --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

2 MR. ADIN: -- and point them out to

3 the Working Group. That'd be helpful, so. So

4 we're going to -- we're going to talk a little bit

5 more about some general aspects of the test

6 procedure, high level items, the metric, how it's

7 constructed.

8 I think we want to be getting to a point

9 by the end of these meetings where we feel

10 comfortable as a group about what the metric will

11 look like and, you know, at least that we have

12 some of those more fundamental items laid out so

13 we can talk more confidently about what standard

14 levels.

15 Now I think we've talked previously

16 about the idea that standard level should be at

17 the end of the metric, but we certainly understand

18 that the metric is a vital element in

19 understanding really how those will look on

20 products, actually be put out on the market. So

21 we want to make sure that we have a good feeling

22 about what -- what that'll look like.
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1 And then standards are really addressing

2 that third bullet there. I mean we want to be

3 getting to a point by the end of these meetings

4 where we're starting to zero in on a general range

5 of standard levels that probably are close to what

6 the group as a whole feels are -- are appropriate.

7 So we haven't really talked in specific

8 terms about that yet. I mean we've put up some

9 information about what different impacts look like

10 at the various standard levels across the entire

11 range, but I think now we're getting to the point

12 where we want -- want to at least start getting a

13 sense of, you know, where within that range is it

14 -- is it reasonable among all the members of this

15 group.

16 So the goal of the June meeting - we'll

17 go over a review of requested information and

18 hopefully develop and vote on a term sheet. So

19 clearly there's a lot of work to be done yet

20 between now and that point and, you know, there's

21 interim webinars or other presentations of

22 information we have to do in order to make sure
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1 that -- that this group, all the members have what

2 they need to make an informed decision, and we'll

3 do so.

4 But the idea is, by the end of this

5 meeting anyway, or the end of tomorrow, we'll have

6 an idea of what -- if we can't get to an idea

7 about where that acceptable standard level lies,

8 what information you all need in order to get to

9 that point.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Question from Charlie

11 Cappellino. Charlie, go ahead.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie

13 Cappellino. Could -- I know you passed one around

14 before, but it's been a while, the term sheet?

15 Yeah. I think that's part of the end game here?

16 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: So I think it would

18 be worth just maybe, again, providing a term sheet

19 or at least taking a look at one, because if

20 that's the end game, I think we all kind of want

21 to see as we're getting closer to saying, okay,

22 this is what we need to produce.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a great --

2 great suggestion.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: The other question I

4 had is could our reporter just move -- maybe move

5 that chair like it's -- yeah. Thank you. Maybe

6 take that chair out, give her more room.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

9 EEI. In this case could there possibly be two term

10 sheets, one for a test procedure and one for the

11 efficiency standards?

12 MR. ADIN: So that's something that

13 this group can discuss. I mean under the

14 authorization given to this working group by the

15 ASRAC currently, our task is to negotiate the

16 standard levels. So we're not specifically

17 negotiating a test procedure.

18 Now through our interim reports,

19 the ASRAC, we could recommend that this group

20 specifically negotiate the test procedure as well,

21 in which case, either that can be rolled into the

22 same term sheet as the standards or done as a
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1 separate -- I mean it's really whatever is

2 authorized or recommended by the

3 ASRAC.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I mean -- Steve

5 Rosenstock. Yeah, the reason I mentioned that is

6 just in terms of the timing. If we don't, would

7 the test procedure have to go through a regular,

8 I'll say, rule-making process?

9 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And there's a timing

11 issue?

12 MR. ADIN: I have a slide on

13 here --

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

15 MR. ADIN: -- that addresses the

16 test procedure, but, yes, that would be a rule

17 making. So, this slide here just briefly

18 addresses all the items that we've provided so far

19 and any items near the bottom that we have to --

20 have yet to present, which is shipments to NIA,

21 manufacturer impact analysis. So, we'll be

22 covering those in the next couple of meetings
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1 today and tomorrow. But, unless there are any

2 questions about this one, I don't know there's a

3 lot to discuss.

4 So those last two items really, the

5 shipments and NIA results, and then the

6 manufacturer impact analysis really just kind of

7 wrap up the last of what -- what DOE has done

8 analysis-wise. So from that point, I mean we're

9 relying on the information that you all have and

10 your reactions to what we've given you. I mean

11 certainly to the extent your -- you think that the

12 data we have might be lacking or the results

13 aren't what you would expect, I mean we're looking

14 for that kind of feedback, but I think we're

15 trying to get to the point where we provided, you

16 know, the extent of the information that we can

17 and we're hoping that we can start moving forward

18 with debate.

19 We did put up a proposed general agenda

20 for the next couple of days just to give you all

21 an idea of what we were looking to cover in a

22 general timeframe. So after I'm finished, we're
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1 going to jump into the remaining analysis that we

2 have to present, which is the updated and new

3 results for engineering and lifecycle costs, the

4 shipments and NIA analysis, and then the

5 manufacturer impact analysis.

6 We have some -- some brief discussion of

7 comparisons between EU and DOE C values. We'll

8 talk a little bit more about that, but, I mean

9 there's been a lot of discussion about C values in

10 the period since the last meeting and we want to

11 make sure that the group is clear that the C

12 values that we've provided are not something that

13 the Department has definitively decided upon.

14 It's really up for the group to decide

15 what's appropriate. I mean we have data that

16 informed those C values. You know, we had no

17 reason to believe it was not accurate at the time

18 we used it. So we provided what we thought was

19 the best information at the time. Certainly to

20 the extent anyone here has an idea about what

21 might be better, that's really what we're

22 interested in hearing and that's the purpose of
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1 having everyone participate in this fashion.

2 And then we have some items to discuss

3 regarding radially split vertical pumps. The data

4 was pretty limited on those, so we had some

5 different ways of addressing that. After that

6 we'll determine what additional information is

7 needed for the Working Group to start essentially

8 discussing what their recommendations might be or

9 what information you would need to inform your

10 decisions about that.

11 And then after that, I mean I think it's

12 going to be more open. I think after what we've

13 presented this morning, we'll be essentially at

14 the point where we've finished presenting what we

15 have to present analysis-wise, and we'll be --

16 we'll be looking for more in the way of feedback

17 from the group and a discussion within the group

18 on where we're going to go on standard levels.

19 And then on Wednesday -- I'm sorry.

20 That's --

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: We're off a day.

22 MR. ADIN: Yeah, we're off a day. To
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1 Wednesday, May 28th, a Thursday. Sorry. We'll

2 discuss the metric implementation, and then

3 hopefully we can get some point of finalization of

4 what the metric will look like tomorrow. So we

5 had in mind that we do analysis and discussion of

6 standards today and more the metric tomorrow.

7 And of course to the extent that we want

8 to keep discussing standard levels and we feel

9 comfortable with the metric, we can devote as much

10 time to that tomorrow as we want. This is an

11 original suggestion for an agenda, but it's

12 obviously open to the group to decide how we're

13 going to use this time.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry, Lucas. It's

15 Mark Handzel. I assume tomorrow is 8:00 start.

16 Is that the plan?

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah, 8:00 start's the

18 plan. That's right. And we'll be upstairs in 8E19 089 tomorrow. Not down here.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.

21 MR. ADIN: Okay. So this slide

22 actually addresses the point that Steve raised
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1 earlier regarding the test procedure. And we've

2 gotten one or two questions about this since the

3 last meeting. So hopefully this will resolve

4 those questions about how this will work

5 procedurally.

6 So the current scope of negotiations for

7 this group does not specifically include the test

8 procedure. It is -- it is to negotiate standard

9 levels. So obviously there's some aspects of

10 negotiating standard level that require debate and

11 consensus by the group, what kind of metric we'll

12 use and things like the weighting of the load

13 points, which load points, that kind of stuff.

14 Motor-sizing, how it will account for losses. How

15 we'll address things like VFDs. And we've been

16 debating all those things during this time. And

17 hopefully we'll get to some resolution about that

18 in the next couple of days.

19 But the test procedure itself as far as

20 how it's incorporated into DOE's regulations will

21 be done through rule-making. So the term sheet

22 won't specifically state which test procedure will
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1 be used and exactly how the test procedure has to

2 be laid out and that kind of thing. That's

3 something the DOE will do through a rule-making.

4 So, you know, we'll certainly be

5 considering all the input that we receive from

6 this group during the time we've been in these --

7 in these meetings. And the docket and the record

8 and all that will be considered because we

9 understand that the most significant stakeholders

10 in all this are in this room, so. But --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: Lucas, this is

14 Charlie Cappellino, ITT. So let me try to

15 understand. So I think what you're saying is the

16 test standard --

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- will not be part

19 of the negotiated ruling, but a test standard will

20 be put in place and basically dictated by the DOE

21 as a result of input and dialogue and the

22 discussion of this group, but there will be no
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1 negotiation on the test standard?

2 MR. ADIN: That's right. Yeah.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: And the reason for

4 that is?

5 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean it really has

6 to do with the scope of the task that was

7 authorized to this working group by the ASRAC. So

8 if the ASRAC specifically says, okay, your scope

9 has expanded and now you are, part of your task is

10 to negotiate a test standard as well, which they

11 could give us authorization to do. You

12 recommended it, but --

13 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

14 How can we have a standard without a full

15 understanding of the test procedure that drives

16 it?

17 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean that's

18 something that we've been trying to address to the

19 extent we can. I mean if the group isn't

20 comfortable with negotiating standards without

21 feeling absolutely certain about the test

22 procedure, I mean that's, you know.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: So let me speak

2 up here. John Cymbalsky. So, HI has delivered a

3 test method to the Department to consider as a --

4 as a proposal, which we will do. Either way, if

5 we want to expand the scope to include the test

6 method, either way, that's going to be a NOPR that

7 has to go out for public comment. Just like the

8 standard that you're negotiating around here. So

9 given the timing, I would say you don't want to

10 put anymore on your plate. Given the fact that DOE

11 through it's contractors participated in the

12 development of that test method, I think we should

13 all feel pretty good about what you delivered.

14 We can't say with certainty what's going

15 to happen with the test method, but I think we

16 should rally around the fact that the test method

17 was developed with DOE contractor support, look at

18 that as a straw man as you negotiate the standards

19 and kind of move forward from there. I think if

20 you get bogged down with the test method, you're

21 not -- we're not going to get to where we want to

22 be with the standards levels, given the time.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right. And maybe just to

2 elaborate a little further on that. I think what

3 we've been trying to provide to the group this

4 whole time in our discussion about the metric is

5 more of an understanding of what the test

6 procedure would be doing. So when we talk about

7 the test procedure, we're just talking about a

8 written procedure that implements what that metric

9 represents. So it's just stating in words, this

10 is how you test a pump to get a measurement in

11 this metric. I don't know if that clarifies at

12 all what we've been addressing, but -- go ahead.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

14 ITT. So if we proceed as you recommended, who

15 would be the decision-maker around the test method

16 in terms of its use? Is it the ASRAC committee?

17 MR. ADIN: That's the center of it.

18 So DOE would put out a proposal and take public

19 comment. And it doesn't -- you all can comment on

20 the proposal for the test method because you

21 didn't sign off on that like you did with the

22 standards. You know, we set rules around that
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1 because you're negotiating the standard. You're

2 not negotiating the test method. So you all could

3 provide public comment.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: So public comment,

5 and then, but who in the end would make the

6 decision?

7 MR. ADIN: We would write a final

8 rule based on all the public comment.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: So the DOE staff.

10 MR. ADIN: Correct.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

12 MR. ADIN: I mean that would be true

13 in either case. We would have to do -- as John

14 was saying, we have to do a proposed rule.

15 Regardless of whether we've done it through the

16 ASRAC and have a term sheet, we still have to do a

17 proposal. And I mean if we were to receive

18 comments or information to consider in this group

19 that bears upon the final decision on that rule, I

20 mean that has to be considered. So it's not

21 guaranteed that the final rule would look exactly

22 as whatever this group puts out, but there's --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.

2 So, John, would you expect the timing of the test

3 standard to be approximately in sync with when --

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: The test method

7 should lead, yes.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, okay. So, they

9 wouldn't be -- I think that's kind of what Gary's

10 concern was, that they would be out of sync.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: We tried very

13 carefully not to have that. It has happened, just

14 to be quite honest with you. But over 90 percent

15 of the time, it's the right way where the test

16 method leads.

17 MR. ADIN: Right, and based on the

18 schedule we've talked about, that's -- there's no

19 reason for us to believe that that wouldn't

20 happen. We mentioned up here that we published a

21 NOPR for a test procedure in the fall and we had

22 talked on publishing a NOPR based on the standards
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1 that this group would recommend by the end of this

2 year. So the objective would be to get that test

3 procedure proposal well in advance.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

6 Yeah, I was just asking about what the timing

7 might be and if there would, on the test procedure

8 side, have to be any sort of preliminary analysis

9 before the NOPR stage. I guess not at this point.

10 Okay.

11 MR. ADIN: I mean we're effectively

12 accomplishing that.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I think you're

14 doing that in real time. I think that's the value

15 of the working group, is that you're actually

16 doing the preliminary analysis as we go. And so

17 at the end of the -- you know, like Lucas said, at

18 some point, you know, you guys have to start

19 negotiating around a standard. And I know we're

20 not quite there yet, but hopefully by the end of

21 tomorrow we all feel better about the numbers.

22 MR. ADIN: Right. So, and if, you
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1 know, hopefully we've given you enough information

2 to be able to talk in an informed manner about

3 those things. And, you know, the metric and the

4 test procedure included. I mean we want you to

5 have enough of an idea of where we're headed on

6 that or what the group thinks is appropriate so

7 that -- so that you can do that. So you're not

8 completely in the dark. I mean, you know, they

9 are obviously directly linked to each other.

10 And so we want to know as much as we can

11 about what the group thinks it should look like

12 going into this. It would be just a question of

13 what's actually spelled out in the term sheet

14 versus how much are you letting DOE write into the

15 NOPR. It would take a lot -- as John said, it

16 would take a lot more time away from the

17 negotiating time that we have left for discussing

18 standards.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

21 EEI. Just -- just thinking is, is there a way to

22 just say something like, as we go forward
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1 considering the metric for the standard, there's

2 going to be an assumption that some of the

3 negotiations are going to be based on the proposed

4 test procedure by HI and/or DOE? You know, just

5 that it's a benchmark as a starting point that --

6 that could be revised by DOE, but it's still, it's

7 there as a -- as a platform just to say we're

8 assuming that the test procedure is going to be 90

9 percent this way.

10 So we can, when we're doing the metric,

11 we can consider that, okay, this is how it falls

12 under that proposed or sample test procedure. Is

13 that a way to think about it?

14 MS. KOHL: Betsy from the DOE. I

15 would, I guess, be hesitant to say something like

16 the test procedure is 90 percent --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy, we're having a

18 hard time hearing you.

19 MS. KOHL: I would be hesitant to say

20 in any written document that the test procedure is

21 90 percent done because there's a rule-making

22 process that has to follow. But I think we can
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1 say something like, you know, the case standard

2 levels were developed based upon that method.

3 Right? I mean that's what we're doing, right?

4 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I know -- I mean --

5 I think that's reasonable, you know. Based on

6 what we've said just this morning, I mean we've

7 been working towards a procedure that would

8 incorporate the test method that HI developed.

9 And, you know, it's reasonable to, for you all to

10 have your discussion on the basis of use of that

11 test method that's built around it.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I think just

13 commonsense-wise, if you see DOE doing analysis

14 based on a certain test method, I think, you know,

15 we can't prejudge what the outcome of the final

16 test method will be, but I think we all need to

17 take some faith and stock into -- into that

18 assumption that we're doing and rally around it.

19 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? Final questions

21 on this subject? Yes, Louis.

22 MR. STARR: Yes. Louis Starr. I
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1 guess one concern I have is, is that the

2 calculated values for the efficiencies of the pump

3 or whatever metric we come up with is, that making

4 sure that the tested version actually exceeds the

5 calculated one. Kind of what I heard is that that

6 might not be the case for the pump guys.

7 So you'd see the problem it would get

8 you into if you ended up having a calculated

9 version of something and the test version actually

10 gave you worse results.

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. STARR: It would not encourage

13 much testing.

14 MR. ADIN: Right.

15 MR. STARR: So you can negotiate

16 standards on a calculated version or the test

17 version. It doesn't get you better -- better

18 examples. You'll have nobody testing, so.

19 MR. ADIN: That's a good point. I'm

20 glad you brought that up. I mean I think that's

21 something that we're probably going to talk about

22 in more detail tomorrow. But, I mean we can talk
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1 about it today, but I mean that is something that

2 we've been trying to emphasize in all the

3 discussion we've had about metric, is that the

4 idea is that we want to have a method where in the

5 calculated it's higher than the -- than the

6 measured.

7 So if, you know, there's some reason to

8 believe that what we've presented isn't getting to

9 that objective, then, you know, we need to know so

10 that we can think about how to address that.

11 Louis Starr.

12 MR. STARR: I think maybe just dial

13 in the test metric a little bit more before. I

14 don't know. I guess actually the best people who

15 would -- is the pump people.

16 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

17 MR. STARR: Generally the problems

18 seem to come around when the VFDs match up with

19 the motors.

20 MR. ADIN: Right.

21 MR. STARR: We don't get expected

22 results. A and B and A and C produce -- produce
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1 different results depending on which VFD you pair

2 it with.

3 MR. ADIN: Right.

4 MR. STARR: I guess it's like Pete,

5 they don't all match up as what he's thinking

6 like, so.

7 MR. ADIN: I was going to have an

8 analysis. I mean that was really the purpose of

9 providing the calculator, is that, you know, so we

10 could start putting real data in there and get an

11 idea of, is this giving us the intended result,

12 and if not, to try and fix it.

13 MR. STARR: Well, perhaps. This is

14 my understanding at first, is that was a little,

15 to understand how the the pumps would fall out

16 with their given, their given pump lines. They

17 would look and see where the, how it affects their

18 pump business. But also it sounds like the other

19 aspect of that is to see how the test procedure,

20 potential test procedure results in the tested

21 numbers, they actually have to see if the

22 calculator's doing an accurate job of predicting
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1 performance.

2 MR. ADIN: Well, it's really both in

3 actuality. It's is the metric delivering what

4 we've been talking about, you know. It's -- as

5 its intended purpose, does it communicate useful

6 information, that kind of thing. But also does

7 it, you know -- does it result in the thresholds

8 and the cutoffs that, that we're aiming for.

9 Yeah. It's both. So I'm glad you made, you

10 raised that question, 'cause we wanted to make

11 sure that that was clear. Yeah. Okay?

12 So I guess that's it for me. Yep. I

13 guess we can move on, unless there are any other

14 questions about the general overall process and

15 what we're aiming to cover in the next couple of

16 days.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to make a

18 statement or two. The first is logistics. Lucas

19 and I received an e-mail from Doug Potts, who said

20 he wouldn't be able to make it to this meeting, I

21 believe both days.

22 Mr. ADIN: Yeah.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So we can remove that

2 chair and provide a little more room at the table.

3 The second thing would be I want to emphasize,

4 having just read through in considerable detail

5 the transcripts from the last meeting, we're

6 getting to the point now where the bulk of the

7 analysis, the bulk of what DOE is going to

8 present, is now presented.

9 So now this is your occasion. This is

10 the opportunity for you as a negotiating working

11 group to begin to really wrangle with the impact

12 of that, ask questions, to seek further bits of

13 analysis, clarification, all of that sort of thing

14 as we think about June being the, the three days

15 that we now have in June, June 17, 18, and 19, as

16 being the opportunity to really see if we can't

17 zero in on the content of that term sheet.

18 We may not make it all the way, but boy,

19 I sure hope we get the bulk of the way there

20 during, during that three day meeting. And I

21 guess that's all I wanted to say, just to

22 emphasize those points. Yes, Bob Barbour.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO.

2 So I'm assuming from what Lucas has said that

3 you're in effect going to the next stage of this

4 meeting. The presentations will address the

5 questions that were forwarded, for example, by

6 Mark and others, because I know we had a number of

7 issues that we were all very concerned about. You

8 know, not just these, but others that we might

9 want to comment on that we really weren't able to

10 comment on during the last webinar.

11 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

12 MR. BARBOUR: So we'd like to get

13 like a line in the sand where we actually see

14 everything, where all of the comments have been

15 taken into consideration, and we can then take a

16 look at those calculations or analysis.

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah, we looked at

18 all the questions that you sent and I believe we

19 have material that covers everything that you were

20 asking about. I mean certainly to the extent we

21 missed something, let us know. And we want to

22 make sure, just like you said, that we've covered
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1 everything that everyone's asked about up to this

2 point.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you respond to the

4 questions?

5 MR. ADIN: Our intent was to address

6 them at this meeting.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: This morning? Okay.

8 Go ahead.

9 MR. ADIN: All right. We did

10 respond to the LCC questions.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And when you

12 responded, are they posted on the SharePoint?

13 MR. ADIN: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Excellent.

15 MR. ADIN: And the questions are

16 as well, of course.

17 MR. BARBOUR: I don't think we've

18 seen those.

19 MR. ADIN: I'll double check. I

20 know I haven't seen it, but I didn't get into

21 SharePoint yet.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: You can go into
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1 SharePoint looking, but right --

2 MR. ADIN: Yeah, the questions

3 and the answers should be posted in the

4 SharePoint, but we'll double check and make sure.

5 In any case, we can go over them for everyone's

6 benefit. Yeah. Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me -- we

8 should also acknowledge that Greg Case has joined

9 us online, yes. So Greg, as I understand it, you

10 are unmuted. We're counting you as being a

11 participant here in the room.

12 MR. CASE: Thanks, Doug.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's

14 proceed. Let me make one more comment about the

15 meeting summaries. For those of you that have had

16 the opportunity to take a peek at them, the last

17 couple -- there's been so much presentation

18 material. I've been trying to take 700 pages of

19 stuff and boil it down. I've also tried to leave

20 the great bulk of the flow of the presentation

21 contents sort of intact, so that if you, if you --

22 for those of you that aren't intimately familiar
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1 with lifecycle costs or the derivation of the

2 metric as Sarah Widder described it, I think if

3 you read through the test procedure -- or pardon

4 me, the meeting summary -- I've tried to make it

5 sort of a primer.

6 So -- and this last one ended up being,

7 the first day alone, 20 plus pages. The second

8 day is going to be 15 pages so that we capture

9 this content. So that as you all continue to,

10 especially the manufacturer folks, continue to

11 sort through the detailed analysis, if you want to

12 refer back to the derivation side of this, there

13 ought to be a lot of content there for you to

14 refer to. Okay. So now to Dan Weintraub.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Thank you, Doug. All

16 right. So I'm going to get us started on our

17 engineering analysis update. So the slides that

18 we're going to go, we're going to show here are

19 based off of what was presented in the webinar.

20 So there is baseline of what we presented in the

21 webinar, plus some new stuff. So that'll give

22 anyone a chance to repose any questions that they
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1 may have had from the webinar in realtime, and

2 then we'll talk about other changes that were

3 made.

4 So what we have in here, updates made to

5 the end suction and inline analyses since the

6 conclusion of the April 30th meeting, though some

7 of those changes are what we discussed at the

8 webinar. Some are a few other things that were

9 made as we went forward, results from the

10 vertical, submersible vertical turbines. So

11 that's, again, based off what we've showed at the

12 webinar with a few more tweaks that we'll go

13 through. Radial split-vertical, so we didn't

14 discuss that at the last meeting, so we'll get

15 into those. And then a small update to the MSP

16 versus efficiency relationship, which was not

17 discussed at the last meeting. So I'll walk you

18 through them.

19 So here for end suction and inline,

20 these first two items were exactly as presented at

21 the webinar. So I'll just highlight them and see

22 if we have any questions that we still want to
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1 discuss.

2 So item number one was percent of models

3 eligible to be polished was adjusted. So we

4 adjusted that down. There are less models

5 available to be polished because the gains we were

6 taking into account previously, gains from

7 polishing volutes which are not a design option.

8 So those available gains have gone down. Are

9 there any questions on that one? Additional --

10 yeah --

11 MR. HANDZEL: So you lowered it by

12 approximately half, maybe a little bit less than

13 half.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.

15 MR. HANDZEL: I think - Sorry. Mark

16 Handzel from Xylem. And I think, you know,

17 Charlie kind of said that, that, you know, we

18 really don't polish unless we're trying to get a

19 pump up to an efficiency level that --

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep. Mm-hm.

21 MR. HANDZEL: -- we previously

22 published. So I -- personally I would say I'm
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1 still troubled even if almost 4% in there for

2 polishing, because I don't think most of us would

3 intend to polish to meet public, you know, unless

4 we had to, you know.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm. Yes, that's a

6 good point, Mark. So just to put a few things in

7 perspective and then pose the later questions. In

8 the model, it ends up coming down to less than 2%

9 are actually polished due to the decisions,

10 decision models that we put into there. And yes,

11 the -- I think we left the discussion last time

12 saying, okay, 2% of all models failing and PER10

13 is one or two models.

14 There are manufacturers that may indeed

15 do that, but then the later on discussion which I

16 posed at the webinar was I think we can affect, if

17 we'd like to screen this out, if you would like to

18 do this, screen this out as a design option, we're

19 going to have very little effect on the analysis,

20 the total conversion costs, and simplify

21 everything down. I am okay with doing that as

22 long as everyone is in agreement with, with taking
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1 that out.

2 MR. HANDZEL: So just to clarify

3 further, Mark Handzel again with Xylem. So what

4 you're saying is, is that some of us might have

5 the options instead of redesigning a pump, of just

6 polishing it and getting it above the PER level

7 that wherever we end up picking it --

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

9 MR. HANDZEL: And so that would

10 prevent us from having to reinvest, reinvest and

11 redesign.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Yes. That's

13 why it was an option.

14 MR. HANDZEL: And I guess, you know,

15 from a, from a PER position, you know, maybe like

16 at the 10 level that might work, but when you get

17 up to the 40 level, you know, it's probably not

18 going to work.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. So --

20 MR. HANDZEL: So I would probably say

21 I like your suggestion of looking at it with and

22 without.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: So I'll put that out

2 to the group to see if there is any objection. I

3 did propose that at the end of the last webinar,

4 whether anyone had, had objections to removing

5 this as a design option, just simplifying our

6 total cost model. It changes the costs very

7 little.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Actually we're not

9 using the polishing cost analyses right now. So

10 downstream of the engineering, we're already

11 ignoring that. Yeah.

12 MR. HANDZEL: You already pulled

13 that? Yeah. Okay.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: And I think one of

15 the main ideas of leaving the polishing in from

16 start to finish was, because it was identified as

17 an option, it was due diligence to see where it

18 was going to take us.

19 But we don't know where -- we don't know

20 where it would have went until we got there. So

21 now we know it's a very small amount, would

22 actually be polished in reality. So that's, I
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1 think, the, the main basis for the idea of let's -

2 - if it's not really a technological option for

3 98% of pumps, then I don't think it should be a

4 design option.

5 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.

6 Personally I think it should be taken out. I know

7 in my 35 years with TACO, I don't think there's

8 been two pumps that we've ever polished that would

9 meet a job. So I find it, you know, a little

10 confusing to even leave it in there.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison, restate --

12 that was Alison previously. Restate, what you're

13 doing now is what?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So for the LCC, we're

15 currently only taking the conversion costs for

16 hydraulic redesigns because polishing was only 2%

17 and it would be a really annoying thing to add it

18 to the LCC. We've just ignored it basically

19 because we would have had to try to figure out

20 which pumps were polished and which ones weren't.

21 So we just said forget it, we're only using the

22 hydraulic redesign costs.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So I believe Dan put

2 that to the working group to see if that as a way

3 to proceed makes sense to everyone present. And

4 as I cast my eyes around the table, no one is

5 giving me a really ugly look or anything like

6 that. So I think we're okay with that, Dan.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. Yeah, so we'll

8 simplify going forward. Okay. The next line item

9 was the capital conversion costs issue. So here,

10 additional capital conversion costs required to

11 change to advanced casting was reduced by

12 approximately half. So an original method we had

13 invalid assumption where for the pumps, for the

14 pumps, for models specifically that needed to go

15 to advanced casting within the model, which was

16 about 10% of them, 10% of failing pumps, we scaled

17 up the total pattern including costs, which

18 included impellers and volutes to the cost that it

19 would cost to, for the tooling, for advanced

20 casting tooling for impeller and volute.

21 We should have just been scaling up

22 impeller costs because volute -- advanced casting
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1 with volutes was never a design option to begin

2 with. So, and again, this was a very small change

3 to the total costs, .3% of the total conversion

4 cost change, but it corrects the assumption we

5 wanted to make. Yes, Charlie.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

7 MR. CAPELLINO: Go to your next one.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep. Okay. All

9 right. So number three, so this was hydraulic

10 redesign cost decreased by 15%. So this was -- we

11 went back and looked deeper into the original HI

12 survey, which the manufacturers participated in,

13 and I had some discussions with Greg Case. He

14 sent me the, the exact wording of the document,

15 what was to be included in the cost of capital

16 category, and that was defined as cost of money to

17 finance upgrades and inventory costs.

18 So when you work through the LCC and you

19 work through the MIA, there's a discount rate, a

20 weighted average cost of capital worked into

21 there, and that covers the cost of capital, how

22 much it's going to take to finance or get equity
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1 or whatever you are going to need to do for that.

2 So we would be double counting if we counted

3 upfront the cost of your interest or the cost of

4 your equity that you're going to need to raise to,

5 to finance these changes.

6 So that's why that 15% was backed out of

7 it. It was an estimate. We tried to base that on

8 reality, but saying it was -- cost of capital was

9 20% of the total redesign cost, so we backed out

10 15% of the total redesign cost, leaving 5% of that

11 category to account for inventory costs, rework

12 transition inventory for legacy support.

13 The reasoning was when you, when you

14 look back at what that remaining, or what that 15%

15 represents as a percentage of what your upfront

16 costs are, it's about three to four years' worth

17 of financing costs at a weighted average cost of

18 capital at 11.8, which is in the analysis.

19 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

20 Just a quick question on your, on that section.

21 Did you include in that the, what you would call

22 abandoned pumps that weren't going to be
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1 redesigned? Did you reduce that number, because,

2 for example, a company like ours --

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

4 MR. BARBOUR: -- we won't be

5 abandoning pump models.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

7 MR. BARBOUR: It doesn't make any

8 sense for us because our typical customer will not

9 buy 95% of its pumps from TACO --

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

11 MR. BARBOUR: -- and then 5% from

12 Xylem or vice versa. It just, it won't happen in

13 the marketplace. So for us to participate in the

14 full market --

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

16 MR. BARBOUR: -- we won't be

17 abandoning pumps. I just want to make sure that

18 that's understood. I don't know how the rest of

19 the pump people feels about that, but from TACO's

20 perspective -

21 -

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: -- that's the way we

2 would look at it.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

4 Xylem. If I can just add to that. So, you know,

5 I think as Bob pointed out, it, it varies by pump

6 manufacturer because, for example, Xylem may have

7 multiple lines of end suction pumps, but we may

8 not be redesigning all of them.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So we will

11 probably have some abandonment. So it's going to

12 depend -- each of us is going to have a different

13 situation.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

15 MR. HANDZEL: So --

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: So I think -- I'm not

17 sure I see the full connection between stranded

18 lines or between financing costs here because

19 we're really just talking about financing or --

20 MR. HANDZEL: It isn't directly the

21 finance costs.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Bob wasn't sure where

2 you should ask that question so, yeah, so it may

3 not -- it was more about you had a previous

4 abandonment, yeah, so --

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: So that's unchanged

6 from where the group decided on, came to a

7 consensus last meeting. That has not been

8 touched. So that's, that was the 25% of the

9 industry down to 15% of the models in the industry

10 at a higher PER level would not be redesigned.

11 And that's unchanged based on consensus of the

12 group.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just a couple of

15 thoughts. I'm Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I don't

16 know if just -- we'll continue on this discussion

17 in a minute. I want to go back two slides, but I

18 know you guys at some point look at small

19 businesses --

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- and to Bob's

22 point, small business will tend to have less
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1 overlap because they haven't basically bought a

2 lot of companies like the larger corporations who

3 potentially have overlap. So there might be a

4 small business element where smaller companies

5 aren't going to typically have that overlap. So I

6 don't know if that's a consideration as you guys

7 do the economic analysis down the road in small

8 business effect.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: That's a very good

10 point and I think Chris is taking notes on that

11 right now because Chris is going to be handling

12 small business analysis. And yes, those are --

13 that's a subgroup that would behave differently,

14 so we would treat them differently on that part of

15 it.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. So I wanted

17 to get back to the two slides here to make sure

18 we're all on the same page. So for improvement of

19 efficiency, I think there was two main areas that

20 we settled on. One was surface finish improvement

21 due to advanced casting methods.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes, when, and that
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1 would only be included in a hydraulic redesign.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Only included in a

3 hydraulic redesign?

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. It would never

5 stand alone.

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: It would never stand

7 alone.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. And when

10 you're doing hydraulic redesign, are you including

11 tooling costs for both impellers and casings?

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Yeah. And

13 that's so straight, a straight line within the HI

14 survey. So that's the only additional cost. The

15 only thing that we're correcting here with item 2

16 was the additional cost, that if you were already

17 at sand casting, you were previously at sand

18 casting, but you needed to go to investment

19 casting on your impeller, you got to up that cost,

20 but only on the impeller, not on the volute,

21 because the volute is staying at sand casting

22 because that's not a design option.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: And then the, so the

2 reduction in capital cost was -- in the past you

3 were basically double counting.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right. So you've

6 basically corrected an error in the capital costs

7 calculations.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. All right.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: And when you're

13 saying capital, this is item 2 you're referring

14 to?

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm talking about,

16 yeah, item 2, which would be tooling costs.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep. We were, we are

18 adding a cost that wouldn't exist.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Which we realized

21 after we looked deeper into it.

22 MR. CAPPELLINO: All right. Thank
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1 you.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: No problem. All

3 right so --

4 MR. HANDZEL: So, Daniel -- I'm

5 sorry. Mark Handzel again. So, and Bob was asking

6 this question and I'm, of course, having a brain

7 freeze and not clear. I know that the Hydraulic

8 Institute has never done surveys on the pump

9 abandonment.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

11 MR. HANDZEL: And so I think we had a

12 discussion and just kind of ballparked that 15% at

13 the last meeting.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

15 MR. HANDZEL: I'm clarifying that

16 everybody remembers that and, you know.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. So I can tell

18 you the process a little bit more. Yeah, so we

19 had a discussion and ballparked it. I have some

20 hard data, a level of hard data, which I know

21 based on our surveys, X number of pumps at each

22 level were told to me to be either dropped or
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1 replaced by something that already existed. And

2 so those are zero cost replacements because the

3 model is already there.

4 Then we said, well, what about the

5 unknown? What about all the manufacturers that are

6 not going to, that didn't outwardly say what they

7 were going to do, and we had a discussion and said

8 that rate is probably between, on average for the

9 industry, 5 to 10%.

10 So I incorporated my numbers and we went

11 through the spreadsheet, and it's on the, on the

12 SharePoint. The numbers I had plus the estimate

13 for the rest of the industry, and then that did

14 work out to what you guys were estimating, at

15 around 25% at the low end, down to 15% at the

16 higher efficiency levels. And our bottom end was

17 somewhere like 10 or 15% down to 5 based on models

18 we were told explicitly would be dropped by

19 manufacturers.

20 MR. HANDZEL: And your -- Mark

21 Handzel again from Xylem. Your surveys were

22 primarily of the larger companies, right?
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Exactly. Yeah.

2 MR. HANDZEL: The people at this

3 table, right?

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

5 MR. HANDZEL: So I don't -- so that

6 was, I think, what Charlie was pointing out --

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

8 MR. HANDZEL: -- that small business

9 impact. I don't think any of us at this table can

10 really --

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

12 MR. HANDZEL: -- you know, give you

13 a, a gut feel for that.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. But that's

15 also why we did the, the five to ten means some

16 are giving five, some are giving zero, or dropping

17 zero. And it's going to, it's going to

18 incorporate somewhere.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, and I think

21 the, the level of that 5 to 10%, we ended up

22 doing, when I was calculating things in that
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1 spreadsheet, it was about 7 point, the median,

2 7.5% added to what I knew already, is how we got

3 there. So, and I believe we -- so we went through

4 that spreadsheet and there was consensus.

5 Okay. Okay. So back to item number

6 three. So hydraulic redesign costs decreased as

7 not to double count the cost of, of financing.

8 I'm going to move forward unless we have any other

9 question on this. Okay.

10 All right. This is again updated number

11 of models in the industry. Actually this is, so

12 this, step four, we updated the model numbers

13 based on the data that we were given then. And

14 then step six, we updated the model numbers again,

15 the number of models in the industry, because at

16 first we were given one set of HI data and then we

17 actually went back and asked for -- when you guys

18 had released shipments and revenues for the

19 industry in that pdf, we got the model numbers to

20 go along with those. And those are the most

21 accurate because that's the aggregate.

22 So those were the numbers that we ended
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1 up using in the end. So you had both your actual

2 data and then your scaled-up data. We got the

3 actual data and we then scaled up the models to,

4 by the same scaling factors to the total revenues.

5 So those are the -- that's how we got to the final

6 total model counts.

7 Okay. Number five. So the cost of

8 redesign per unit was adjusted to decrease

9 linearly from PER 40 to PER 10, and this is mostly

10 for the purpose of analysis. So previously we

11 modeled the manufacturers' plans to redesign to

12 PER 40 for any standard less than or equal to PER

13 40. So the change counts for the actual cost of

14 redesigning the PER 10 or 25 to fairly examine the

15 economic justification. So -- yes.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

17 EEI. For that new dash line, is that based on data

18 from the manufacturers?

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: So it's based on

20 actually data, scaling from the EU data as we had

21 done scaling up. So all we received from the

22 manufacturers was that point at 40, was the data
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1 point at 40. So previously we scaled upwards to

2 the right using the EU's relationship, what their

3 manufacturers had said it would cost at the higher

4 levels, and I took that same relationship and

5 their information at the lower levels as compared

6 to the mid level, went down to about half of the

7 original cost per model.

8 And again, this is because for the

9 purposes of analysis, we need to have a

10 representation of if you were to just do the

11 minimum required to get there, how much would it

12 cost, even though, even though that you make the

13 decision to go beyond what the minimum is. We

14 needed to have a representation of the minimum

15 cost to get there. So that's why we, we rebuilt

16 the cost in this manner. The 40 level is still

17 based off the manufacturer data. That still

18 stands.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

20 EEI. So that dash line is, is that kind of your --

21 you said it's based on the EU data.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-mm.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Actual data?

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. So EU did

3 manufacturer surveys where the manufacturers

4 responded for how much will it cost total to get

5 to MEI 10, MEI 40, MEI 80 or so.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

7 Do you have any certain economic incentives, any

8 sort of special tax credits or tax incentives or,

9 or advanced appreciation that would kind of lower

10 that maybe than what would happen in the US?

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: I'm not aware of any,

12 but we can, we can look into it.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I'm just kind

14 of curious.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve

17 Rosenstock, EEI. If there was some sort of, you

18 know, economic parameters that were available

19 there to lower their costs versus what might

20 happen here.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. There was

22 nothing written into the EU study, so this was
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1 based off the study done for the Lot 11 --

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- by their

4 consultants, and there's nothing written into it,

5 but we can double check. It was just based --

6 they said it was based on a survey from ...

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Do we have any other

9 questions? So I can share that report. It's a

10 public report. I can share that with you guys

11 just so you can see their numbers.

12 MARK HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

13 Xylem. We were just -- Bob and I were just

14 talking, you know, because Chuck Powers was pretty

15 involved in the development of standards. So we

16 might want to call Chuck to see if he knows

17 specifically if there was, you know, if there was

18 financing done on the part of EU to help the

19 manufacturers with the design costs.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, say the name of

22 the report.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Oh, it's the -- I'll

2 share it. It's the Preparatory Study for the EU

3 Lot 11.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: And it's basically

6 like what one of our TSDs would be. It was the

7 report that informed the group on, to make their

8 decision.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, so I'll share

11 that with everyone and, yeah, we'll go from there.

12 But, this was again --

13 MR. CASE: Doug.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Greg.

15 MR. CASE: Greg Case. You know, I'm

16 a little confused. In this study I think you just

17 referred to it, that we did this study and gave

18 you numbers at 10, 40, and 70, I think, MEI

19 levels, and why are we not using that data, or

20 what's different between this and what we gave

21 you?

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: So Greg, you guys
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1 only, within the HI study, you only provided the

2 cost to get to 40. You actually did not provide

3 the cost to get to 10. So that, there was one

4 study, 3 horsepower bins, and the cost to get to

5 40. And we do understand that realistically

6 manufacturers may make the decision that if there

7 is an MEI10 or PER10, they're going to go to 40.

8 But we have to look at the incremental cost of

9 efficiency, in that how much would it actually

10 cost if you just wanted to hit the minimum

11 standard compared to going above and beyond for

12 analytical purposes.

13 MR. CASE: Okay. Thank you. I had

14 mis- remembered how we had set up that survey.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Greg.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. If there

18 any other questions? Move forward. Okay. So six

19 we discussed. So these are the only new items

20 actually. So everything before this we presented

21 previously. And seven was just adding precision.

22 So I wanted to -- when we see results
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1 change from month to month, I want people to know

2 why. So here we just added precision, and that

3 previously when we were talking about number of

4 models redesigned, it was just the flat PER10, 10%

5 of the population, PER20. We just dug, dug a

6 little deeper and, you know, it works out to be

7 PER10 is 10.3% because it's not round numbers.

8 And then we also looked at the actual

9 population of failing pumps, saying we have these

10 20 pumps failing. Based on the redesign survey,

11 how much does it cost to redesign all 20 of them,

12 not -- previously I just said the average cost to

13 redesign a pump. Over 200 pumps was $200,000

14 multiplied times 20. Now I looked at each

15 population separately. So it just became more

16 granular once we started to settle on a method

17 that we are going to go through. So it's just

18 more precise results, not large changes due to

19 this, but just more precise.

20 Okay. A quick look at the changes. So

21 here we have April 30th, May 14th, May 27th. May

22 14th is what you saw at the webinar for both
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1 inline and end suction. You'll see between May

2 14th and May 27th very little change, very little

3 change. It's just mostly driven by the model

4 numbers, the number of models that we, that we

5 included in.

6 And you see the big -- there's the

7 negative 50, negative 50, negative 25, and

8 negative 30. That's driven by the decreasing

9 slope of the redesign versus efficiency level

10 curve. So moving on.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait. Don't go so

12 fast.

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. Let you guys

14 soak it in. But yes, very little change over

15 where we were two weeks ago at our webinar.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to let everybody

17 have a chance to get this.

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: Sure.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Charlie

20 Cappellino.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. Just so it's

22 absolutely crystal clear. The numbers in the
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1 cells are millions of dollars.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Yep. Correct.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: That the industry

4 would spend to accomplish the redesign.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Correct.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: As a whole. The

7 industry as a whole.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Aggregate, yep.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel. I

10 would just request that that be added to the slide

11 --

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay.

13 MR. HANDZEL: -- just for other

14 people who may go back and look at this later,

15 that it's clear what the, what the impact is.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't even see that

17 it says millions.

18 MR. HANDZEL: No, it doesn't say it

19 anywhere --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: There it is, yeah.

21 MR. HANDZEL: That's good.All right, Dan,

22 you're right. Sorry, Dan, never mind. It's good.
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1 (Inaudible) and honest. And then thousand,

2 thousand, million.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Joanna Mauer.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: "Total cost of

5 redesign to industry." Okay. I'll just - no,

6 we'll do parenthesis "in aggregate".

7 MR. BROOKMAN: You were going to say

8 something?

9 MS. MAUER: I was just -- this is

10 Joanna Mauer.

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

12 MS. MAUER: Could you just kind of at

13 a high level explain a little bit -- I'm looking

14 at --

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

16 MS. MAUER: -- the costs going from

17 PER 40 to PER 55. It looks like the cost doubles

18 about --

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

20 MS. MAUER: -- going from 40% of

21 models that --

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.
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1 MS. MAUER: -- would it meet the

2 level versus 55 --

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep. Yeah. So

4 you'll actually see that it's, at the other levels

5 say 25 to 40 we're seeing doubling also. And that

6 is the result of this curve. So basically the

7 model is doing two things. It's counting a new --

8 at each level there is more models that need to be

9 redesigned. And then those need to be redesigned

10 at a higher cost per model each step up the

11 ladder.

12 So your 40, you know, as your baseline.

13 Now at 55 your cost has gone up about 1.4 and

14 you've added 15% more -- or you've added X percent

15 more models. Yes, actually, yeah, so you're going

16 from 40 to 55. So you've added 30, over 30% more

17 models that need to be redesigned. So it's just,

18 it's just a multiplication compounding issue.

19 MS. MAUER: Okay, thank you.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Is that clear? Go

21 ahead.

22 MR. BARBOUR: Can I ask one more
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1 question?

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah sure.

3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour. This is

4 Bob Barbour with TACO. Sorry. The PER40 levels

5 that you're referring to there --

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.

7 MR. BARBOUR: -- you're using 40%?

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

9 MR. BARBOUR: But when we're running

10 our numbers, I don't think any of us based on the

11 C values that are in the spreadsheets at this

12 point --

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

14 MR. BARBOUR: -- are coming up with a

15 40% impacted number.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay.

17 MR. BARBOUR: We're coming up with --

18 with higher numbers, and typically as you get up

19 into the higher, higher PER numbers --

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

21 MR. BARBOUR: -- and I don't know

22 what you may be doing to adjust those C values to
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1 better reflect that.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm. So we

3 actually have a whole section devoted to talking

4 about C values later on this afternoon, or

5 whenever we get to it. Hey, Mark, 'cause I think

6 Bob's point is just that it, it could impact

7 (inaudible).

8 MR. HANDZEL: Oh, yes.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Just sort of as aside,

10 though, when you calculate it to get 40% of the

11 whole industry, and any one of you is highly

12 likely to not get 40% because your pumps may be

13 better or worse than the industry average. So

14 it's sort of a little bit of a problem where it's

15 hard for you to individually assess how

16 appropriate the C values are, so --

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: But we will show you

18 - yeah. But we will show you our, what our data

19 gave us, what HI's data gave you, and actually

20 it's just compared to the EU as a (inaudible). So

21 we have all that coming up.

22 But the idea here is, these efficiency
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1 levels, as Lucas said earlier, are independent of

2 what the C value is. We want -- you guys as a

3 group will decide on what the C values are that

4 should go with these efficiency levels. But we're

5 setting these efficiency levels and doing these

6 calculations based on the drop of what we're

7 targeting.

8 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again from

9 TACO. So really what you're saying is it's not a

10 PER 40, but it's a 40% --

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: Drop.

12 MR. BARBOUR: -- drop or redesign --

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Exactly. Yep.

14 MR. BARBOUR: That's why I was

15 getting a little confused as to what you were

16 trying to lead to.

17 MR. ADIN: This is independent of the

18 metric.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.

20 MR. ADIN: So that wouldn't matter.

21 The C value tells you how to get from, how to get

22 that from --
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Right.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel again. So

3 would the plan be that once there's agreement on

4 the metric, that you would refine this further, or

5 is this going to stay as an estimate at 40% of the

6 --

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: This stays as is

8 because --

9 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- regardless of what

11 the metric is, you can change your C value or you

12 can change how you define the standard level based

13 on that metric to drop out 40% of the, of the

14 models. That's always the goal, to drop out the

15 number that we're prescribing here. Or if we want

16 to look at a level somewhere in between there, we,

17 you know, we drop out another percent and we say,

18 what's 30, what's PER 30. But, that's always the

19 goal.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

21 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr.

22 Does that mean that on the standard levels, that
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1 you feel that the agreement will be one of these

2 levels, or can it be an intermediate value

3 somewhere between 25 and 55?

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: I believe it can be

5 any level that the group would like to -- to get

6 to. So, you know, we did a broad starting point

7 to, to show the lay of the land, but if it looks

8 like you're looking at two standard levels and

9 you're fighting between them and you want to see

10 what goes on in between them, we can do -- if

11 you're looking at 25 and 40, we can do 35.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to restate, one

13 of Lucas' points in his first slide was that the

14 Working Group could, for example, choose analysis

15 at a, at a level of 30 or 35, that sort of thing,

16 and that, that would be a productive thing for us

17 to just, to work through in the next two days.

18 MR. STARR: Then you would be going

19 back and redoing your stuff, right?

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Yeah. But

21 these are all scalable analyses. So turning this

22 around is very quick, yeah.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

3 yeah. So as a follow-on, if, if someone wanted to

4 say, well, what about PER 33, you could run those

5 --

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep. Mm-hm.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- calculations

8 pretty quick turn around?

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Exactly.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay.

13 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

14 End- suction, in-line. Do you have the rollups

15 for all of the models so we can see a total of all

16 of the different costs for the different types?

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: I actually don't have

18 it right here, but I can get that out later. I

19 don't have it in the slides, but I do have total

20 industry. Let me just double check. No, I don't

21 think I got total industry. Oh, I did get total

22 industry in there. There we go. Okay.
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1 So here you go. You have total industry

2 here, end suction, in-line, vertical turbines,

3 radial split verticals. You'll see and we'll

4 discuss radial split later why they're blocked

5 out. That's another discussion we're going to

6 need to have as a group, but for now there are

7 (inaudible) including costs in those categories.

8 You can take a look at the folder.

9 Of course, I didn't actually present to

10 you the VTS or the RSV yet, but you can see how it

11 sums. On the top, millions, in millions of dollars

12 total cost. On the bottom, as a percent of annual

13 revenues minus motor. So no motors in those

14 annual revenues. Same percent, same basis as was

15 done previously.

16 MR. SIVIGNY: Thank you, Daniel.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Okay. I'm

18 going to -- we'll get back to this. I'll roll

19 back to that. Any other questions on end suction

20 and in-line specifically? Okay.

21 I'm going to move forward. So this was

22 what I had put forward to the group earlier,
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1 simplifying and removing polishings. So we're

2 going to do that. I'd also like to propose the

3 removal of advanced casting from the model. I did

4 the numbers, and that added complication within

5 the model only adds .3% of those total dollars

6 that you see on the screen. So it doesn't even

7 impact what you're looking at, because if we're

8 looking at 12.2 million, .3% of that is the

9 difference to the industry.

10 So unless there are any objections, I'd

11 like to pull that out to again simplify it so as

12 we're scaling things, things can be scaled easier.

13 Does anyone have -- Charlie.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

15 On that point, you're saying remove the cost and

16 remove the benefit or advanced casting benefit?

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Just simple -- so it

18 would just be a straight simplification, in that

19 previously we said 10%, approximately 10% of

20 failing models may change, would be forced to

21 change to advanced casting as well as redesign.

22 So now we're just saying they're going to get
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1 there just using a hydraulic redesign. Just to

2 simplify the cost modelling.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: The benefits would be

4 the same.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: The benefits are the

6 same. They're going to get there. Just the

7 baseline, yeah.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

10 EEI. So again, as a design option, are you still

11 assuming the model that some manufacturers are

12 going to use advanced casting to meet the level?

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: As a design option,

14 we would be removing it as a design option and

15 replacing those pumps that, the pumps that

16 previously in the model right now were redesigned

17 and changed casting method to meet standard.

18 Those pumps just incur the cost of changing

19 standard, changing casting method. Sorry. Those

20 pumps just incur the cost of hydraulic redesign.

21 And on aggregate for the industry, it changes it

22 within the noise.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Does it change the

2 energy savings at all?

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: No, it -- we just

4 make the assumption that they'll get there.

5 They'll get to the same level with hydraulic

6 redesign only, 'cause in the model a failing pump

7 needs to make it to an efficiency level. That

8 pump that was redesigned will get there using

9 hydraulic redesign regardless. That's the

10 assumption that we're making.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve

12 Rosenstock, EEI. Even if it's a lower - again,

13 I'm just -- I'm trying to put all this out. Even

14 as an option, the casting might be -- I know

15 you're saying it reduces the, the total cost, but

16 what if a particular pump's casting is cheaper

17 than the redesign to meet that level?

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: So it was always a

19 coupled design option, in that the design options

20 that we previously had were hydraulic redesign or

21 hydraulic redesign with, plus casting, plus new

22 casting method. So we're just trying -- we're
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1 proposing to just simplify it and say the only

2 design option left is just hydraulic redesign

3 because the costs are so similar to the other

4 design option, to just treat everything that's

5 going to, that can be redesigned and pass with,

6 with hydraulic redesign.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

9 ITT. So you talk about the costs being small.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Are you talking

12 about the initial investment cost, tooling costs,

13 or the cost to manufacture the parts themselves?

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: The initial cost.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: The initial cost.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Initial cost and that

17 was -- I can throw out some rough numbers for you.

18 It was about 7,000 dollars more to get the

19 advanced tooling over what the baseline was. And

20 then we had -- we showed that at the last meeting.

21 And so that 7,000 on -- 7,000 dollars on top of

22 200,000 dollars approximately. But that 7,000
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1 dollars only incurred to 10% of the models in the

2 marketplace. So it becomes a very small

3 percentage of that total.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: But the additional

5 cost to use an advanced casting method on a

6 production basis is still included in the model?

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: So we came to the

8 consensus of it during the last meeting that we

9 were okay with zero change in MPC.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah, I never agreed

11 with that, but we'll talk about that later, I

12 guess.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, restate what you

14 think we agreed to.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: I believe we came to

16 a consensus last meeting that there would be no

17 change in manufacturers' production cost on the,

18 on the basis, on the whole, from changing from a

19 sand cast impeller to an advanced cast impeller.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. On impellers

21 only.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Impellers only.
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1 Yeah.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah. Thank

3 you.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: And so you had, you

5 had proposed questions, we posed a response --

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- to that.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Took the casting out

9 of the picture.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Castings out of the

11 picture. Yeah.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Just as a matter of

13 clarifying, I'm trying to remember in the

14 transcript, did this come up at the very end of

15 the last meeting?

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: It was towards the

17 end, yes. I went back up with the slide.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: You went back over

19 slides and you asked for confirmation on what you

20 were doing --

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: -- to change the
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1 assumptions? Yes. Okay.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep. And we did go

3 forward with that as a group.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. And you

5 stated we intend to go forward with these revised

6 assumptions.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Mm-hm. And we

8 did. So are there any other questions on the, the

9 .3% change in costs due to getting rid of advanced

10 casting complications?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just make a

12 process note. The work of this working group is

13 predicated on all agreements, preliminary

14 agreements, until they come to them collectively

15 as a final agreement. So if you reach a point of

16 discomfort with any of these points, it's, we can

17 reconsider, but we want very much these

18 considerations to be as well considered as

19 possible. I think I'm getting redundant there.

20 Anyway, we want to -- we want as much thought

21 process and scrutiny going into each one of these

22 agreements that we make along the pathway, but
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1 they're all preliminary or provisional until we

2 reach a final agreement. Okay.

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: So just to step back

4 and put this in perspective. So the simplifying

5 of the costs of the model. What does that mean?

6 Overall it means the only design option on the

7 table is hydraulic redesign. Generic hydraulic

8 redesign at a cost, the same number of pumps at

9 each level will get to be redesigned, just

10 everyone is incurring a hydraulic redesign, though

11 the pump that we had specified for polishing is no

12 longer polished. It's hydraulically redesigned.

13 The pump that we had specified as

14 hydraulically redesigned and changed to investment

15 casting is just hydraulically redesigned, and they

16 make it there. That's the proposal. And that's

17 pretty much in line with what HI had been

18 proposing from the start. So if there are any --

19 are there any objections? If not, we're going to

20 move forward. Okay.

21 All right. Now so VTS and RSV. So we

22 went through vertical turbine submersible results
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1 last meeting. Not much change. I didn't show the

2 changes because they were small. These are

3 updated numbers. Here we only analyzed two-pole

4 models. We'll discuss that later as we're only --

5 currently we're only looking at the two-pole model

6 equipment class. We'll discuss that and come to a

7 consensus on that later.

8 No models are dropped out of the

9 marketplace. All failing models are hydraulically

10 redesigned because polishing cannot be done there.

11 Forty percent of total MSP attributed to motor

12 price, 70% of shipments assumed to be sold with

13 motors. So these are assumptions we had to make

14 due to short data, but we based it on the rest of

15 the population.

16 Cost to redesign linearly reduced

17 between below PER 40. That's the same linear

18 reduction in redesign costs that we looked at

19 earlier. And then the same price efficiency

20 relationship applied to it. And we'll discuss that

21 again later.

22 So these are your percentage costs.
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1 They were on the screen earlier. They're fairly

2 inline with what you see with the end-suction and

3 in-line pumps as a percentage of revenues. So

4 there's nothing surprising there in those results

5 and not very different from what you saw

6 previously at the webinar. If there aren't any

7 questions, I'm going to move forward.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Before you move on --

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Sure.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Just everybody take a

11 peek before we move on. Okay.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. All right.

13 RSV. So this is new. We did not discuss this.

14 So RSV as we presented it in the webinar, or we,

15 we released some slides on the webinar -- we're

16 very short on data for vertical turbine -- for

17 radial split vertical pumps. So we're making a lot

18 of assumptions going through this analysis and I'm

19 going to take you through them.

20 So for this we did have HI's aggregate

21 number of models, HI's aggregate shipments, and

22 HI's aggregate revenues. So that was a good basis
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1 to work off of. We just had very short actual

2 model data.

3 So to look at costs, we said all

4 available two-pole models are available in the

5 marketplace as a four-pole model and that was

6 based on discussions with manufacturers. We said

7 there's a limited additional cost to convert a

8 four-pole model because the two pole is the basis

9 that's out there in these types of models and the

10 four pole is not designed separately. It has a

11 motor put on it. It will likely be tested and

12 likely have marketing put out for it, but it's not

13 going to be designed specifically as a four-pole

14 model in the marketplace.

15 So the costs associated with the failing

16 four-pole models are very small. We said it was

17 25% of the marketing costs and 25% of the testing

18 costs, and there would be no additional hydraulic

19 redesign cost associated with that. No additional

20 tooling costs because it's the same product. We

21 said no models are dropped. We said all failing

22 models are hydraulically redesigned as the only
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1 design option, 40% of total MSP attributed to

2 motor price, 70% of shipments sold with a motor,

3 and then the cost of redesign reduced linearly

4 below PER40 again.

5 And so here was the assumption why we

6 have black -- why we have the bottom end blacked

7 out. So the marketplace baseline is set at PER

8 40, which is equivalent to MEI 40 right now.

9 That's the discussion we'll have later on C

10 values, but saying that this is a -- and we didn't

11 -- it's kind of putting the cart before the horse

12 here, but RSV is our global platform.

13 What's sold in Europe is sold in the US

14 and Europe is in the process of phasing out

15 anything below MEI 40. And we're looking to

16 target our C values right now based on discussions

17 with the manufacturers, and we'll still need input

18 from the advocates' basing to target our C values

19 on the EU C values there because it's a global

20 platform.

21 So therefore, if anything below 40 is no

22 longer available in the EU, we don't expect it to
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1 be produced and brought over to the US either.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

4 EEI. You said it has been phased out or is going

5 to be phased out?

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: January 2015.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 2015?

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Is the phaseout.

9 Right now PER10 is phased out, or MEI10 is phased

10 out.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So that when you say

12 phased out, again, that's a baseline?

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, that's the new

14 baseline. Okay.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. It said

16 phased out.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Sorry. And

18 the data, the limited data we had didn't show any

19 pumps existed, or showed very few single

20 percentages below that 40.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Because all the

22 manufacturers have already redesigned --
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Exactly. So --

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

3 Xylem.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Exactly. So

5 we're trying to -- so this one we know. Unlike

6 the end- suction and the in-line pumps, we know

7 that this is a global product. The other ones

8 have footprints in the US, footprints in EU. Some

9 overlaps don't -- independent marketplaces. Here

10 it's a very different marketplace.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

12 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.

13 Did you look at higher levels just to see what,

14 because they're also, there's new standards moving

15 forward in the EU? So I'm wondering if you could

16 kind of see how that falls out at higher levels to

17 see if the market is shifting (inaudible).

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: So it takes the same

19 approach as the EU actually, where the top of the

20 market is what's out there right now. Is, so --

21 MR. STARR: Okay.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- you know, PER 100,
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1 which you can't really get to because that's the

2 tail of a bell curve, but the top is the top.

3 That's the best in the market. So PER 40 here is

4 meant to represent where the EU is going in 2015,

5 and the EU has made no statements to go beyond

6 there without, aside from the extended products

7 that they're looking at. But so here, you know,

8 at the top of the market, EU as they defined it

9 was MEI 70, so 70 would be top of market here

10 relating to what they did.

11 And here you see percentage.

12 Interesting, you get a, a break from what we were

13 seeing in the previous models and a percent of

14 revenues -- redesign costs of the percent of

15 revenues is very low, and that's because based on

16 the data that HI provided, you had large numbers

17 of shipments for relatively small number of models

18 in the industry, which means your costs can be

19 spread over more sales. So you see very low

20 percentage of revenues there. And again, those

21 models, model numbers are based on that HI survey.

22 All right.
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1 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

3 MS. MAUER: Just so I'm clear, so

4 you're defining, for example, PER 40 differently

5 from this category than you -- for the other

6 categories it's defined based on models available

7 today or whenever the survey was conducted in the

8 US.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

10 MS. MAUER: Where here it's tied

11 directly to C values in the EU.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

13 MS. MAUER: Okay.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Move forward?

15 All right. So we looked at this earlier. This is

16 the summary again. You see -- so just to run

17 through and give you the idea of the end-suction,

18 top line end- suction pumps, those -- so that's a

19 combined category. Those, and in-line, similar

20 costs if you were split them in half, say, end

21 suction and break out the close couple and the

22 frame-mounted. In line they all, they work very
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1 similarly in the cost patterns. Vertical turbines

2 cost a little less at each level per unit.

3 As a percentage of revenues, you can see

4 they all work fairly similarly, you know. At the

5 low end you'll see 10% of revenues on an aggregate

6 of 70, then 30, 40, 28, average 28. So they're

7 all -- aside from the radial split verticals,

8 they're working in unison. Excuse me, VTS

9 (inaudible).

10 And I think these will be good things

11 for you guys -- well, we'll send these out after

12 as quickly as we can actually to the group so you

13 guys can kind of pour over them, because it will

14 be important information.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay.

16 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

17 Your efficiency level PER 10 --

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

19 MR. SIVIGNY: -- I see 9%, 10%, 8%,

20 and at the bottom we got 7%.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

22 MR. SIVIGNY: Is that the RSV
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1 bringing that down?

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: That is -- so RSV

3 does bring that down, yes, because there's no cost

4 incurred at that level if we were to set a

5 standard there, because we're saying we're using

6 the EU values. So if you were to set a standard

7 there using the EU C value, nothing needs to get

8 redesigned there.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Are those weighted?

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: These are weighted,

11 yes. So that -- you can't just take the average

12 of 9, 10, and 8. You do total, 19.7 divided by

13 the total revenues of the industry gets you your

14 7%.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: I'm sorry. I didn't

17 put up the total revenues, but you could actually

18 back them out if you wanted to. Yeah. So it

19 should be the same on each -- total revenue should

20 be the same for each level. So the same thing for

21 PER 25. There would be a zero cost of redesign

22 there.
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1 All right. So we'll distribute these so

2 you guys can work with them. All right. Finally,

3 this is just a brief update. So the MSP versus

4 efficiency relationship, you remember, and this

5 was the --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And for those of you

7 that are curious, at the end of this presentation,

8 which I think is going to be fairly soon --

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: This is the next --

10 looking at two slides. Yeah. So this

11 relationship which we looked at last meeting, this

12 was the idea where you got, there was a little bit

13 of a price efficiency relationship at the lower

14 end of the market, but it flattened out. This

15 hasn't really changed at all. All we did was

16 refine the analysis. So this was the basis that

17 fed into the LCC.

18 It was the idea that very inefficient

19 pumps were cheaper in the marketplace, but once

20 you reached a certain level, things were flat.

21 You weren't getting price -- you weren't getting

22 price for efficiency.
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1 So I just wanted -- it changed a little

2 bit from the last meeting, so I wanted to make

3 sure that you weren't being surprised by why does

4 this curve look different than this, than the last

5 curve. So the basic methodology hasn't changed as

6 we went through the last meeting.

7 What we did do was we did MSP premium

8 relationship, which ultimately means the markups

9 on a pump now realizing the pump's relative market

10 score. So the PER percent. So you have a pump and

11 it has a C value -- it has a C value, and that C

12 value entails that, and it also has where it

13 stands in the marketplace. It could be, you know,

14 in the 9th, 8th percentile, 9th percentile, 10th

15 percentile.

16 Where does it sit on the PER scale of 0

17 to 100? So how does it sit in the marketplace?

18 And when I did the analysis, I did the analysis

19 based on that relative market score. Basically

20 this X axis for further regression was now where

21 it sits percentage of models failing rather than C

22 value.
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1 And it just allowed us to be a little

2 more precise because we were dealing with the

3 equipment classes lumped together, end suction

4 close-couple 1800, 3600, and frame-mounted all in

5 one analysis group.

6 So I was able to apply the proper

7 standing. Every pump got its proper standing

8 because you apply to a close-couple 1800 pump, got

9 the C values, it got compared to its subgroup.

10 And a close-couple 3600 got compared to its

11 subgroup. So it sat properly within its group.

12 It was ranked properly. It was just a -- really

13 just adding precision to, to the model.

14 So it just, each pump, yeah. So it's

15 all, it's all written here. I mean that's, that's

16 the extent of it. The general shape doesn't

17 change. It's just the value is tweaked.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

20 ITT. So just trying to understand the, the graph

21 there.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: So on the left-hand

2 side it says 0%.

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: So that's the bottom

4 of the market.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: The bottom of the

6 market.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Up to, let's say, a

9 little over 20%.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: So what they're

12 saying, there's a 20, a little over 20% price

13 difference?

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Between the bottom

16 of the market and --

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep. So this would

18 represent, say, PER20, a pump at PER20 or a pump

19 at MEI, whatever it is. And that pump is going to

20 cost, say, about 1% more than the average pump in

21 the marketplace. And this was based off that

22 analysis that we did last time where we looked at
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1 -- I regressed how every pump in the marketplace

2 performed as compared to the average cost

3 regressed on C value previously.

4 Now I regressed on its ranking in its

5 group rather than the C value. It's just changed

6 from regressing on C value to regressing on

7 ranking within the group.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait a second, Steve.

9 Charlie, did that answer it?

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah, I think so. I

11 guess just -- I guess what I'm trying to

12 understand is the relevance here and how this zero

13 percent got, really isn't all that relevant

14 because it's, it's, it's the end, it's the end of

15 the - no, the zero percent. It's the end of the

16 market and there's not a lot of people playing

17 there anyway. So it's real relevant and it's kind

18 of that middle point that you were --

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Exactly. Because in

20 reality, the baseline of what's actually being

21 purchased is somewhere over, between five -- at

22 the bottom of what's really being purchased,
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1 between five and ten. But actually -- so we --

2 because our model has to run -- starting with all

3 models, I actually cut off the analysis at, it was

4 somewhere around 5%, saying below there, you know,

5 this is, things start to get weird because these

6 are pumps that may not be purposely water, clean

7 water pumps and such. They may have other

8 tradeoffs.

9 So the data we used was really pumps

10 above, you know, the 3 or 4%, and said, but you

11 have to go to zero on your curve for the analysis.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

13 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

14 So to really simplify this, are we saying then,

15 approximately that you're not going to see a

16 premium as a, as a pump manufacturer if you fall

17 anywhere between 21% and the 90% level?

18 Mr. WEINTRAUB: Correct.

19 MR. BARBOUR: Pretty much would be it

20 flat? And that's really what you're saying?

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: In the marketplace

22 today and we're going to go through scenarios in
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1 the LCC that may differ, if we go through this

2 scenario and other scenarios that will represent

3 tomorrow, but in the marketplace today, this

4 represents, yes, zero.

5 MR. BARBOUR: So the marketplace

6 today doesn't, doesn't - sorry. Bob Barbour

7 again.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

9 MR. BARBOUR: The marketplace today

10 does not reflect any additional cost to the

11 consumer for a premium product?

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Correct.

13 Correct. And that was, if you will remember from

14 -- we cleaned this up even more from what we saw.

15 We saw, you know, waves going up and down where,

16 you know, there's no correlation going on.

17 MR. ADIN: Lucas. Just to clarify

18 again. This is Lucas. That's the premium for

19 efficiency?

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Premium for

21 efficiency, right.

22 MR. ADIN: So you might be paying a
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1 premium for other things like performance factors

2 or features, but there's no specific price premium

3 for efficiency.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: And that's the

5 marketplace today as our data reflected. As our

6 regression could reflect.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

9 EEI. But does your model show that there are some

10 cost increases going from 25 to 85 based on other

11 factors?

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: What the regression

13 showed was that you could have -- there was, there

14 was no correlation. So we didn't, we don't look

15 at other factors such as durability, reliability.

16 That's not within the scope of this. We can't

17 break those out.

18 But what we saw were you may have a cost

19 higher here. You may have a cost lower here. You

20 may have a cost higher here or a cost lower there.

21 And they were circling. They were circling the

22 slide. So we correlated to a zero correlation
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1 beyond there, beyond where we could find an actual

2 relationship.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve

4 Rosenstock, EEI. So what you're saying, it's just

5 a flat price from 25 to 85.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Mm-hm.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Basically. Okay.

8 That's very interesting.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: And again, that

10 actually goes along with what we obtained. And

11 what we learned in manufacturer interviews along

12 the way was that what was stated was there's a

13 level you could get to, to be in the game for

14 bidding, but then there's other factors that come

15 into play that will win you those jobs, and it's

16 not particularly efficiency all the time. You

17 just have to hit that level and get in the game,

18 and then you can go.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

21 MR. STARR: Louis Starr of NEEA. Good

22 morning. I was expecting that would be at 40%
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1 rather than 30% where you start to not have a

2 premium just because it seems like most

3 manufacturers are global, maybe decide with the

4 European market. Did you expect to see that at 30

5 or maybe --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel of Xylem.

8 That's not completely true because we, once we

9 sell a 60-cycle platform in North America. So

10 it's not the same product sold in Europe. So

11 that's, that's why there's, there's a difference.

12 We may have some products where there's some

13 overlap, but others there will not be any at all.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: So Louis, that's

15 where the statement on the RSV pumps comes into

16 play. That is the truly global platform where we

17 recognize and we recognize that that is the same

18 pump here and there, but the rest of them are as

19 Mark said. They're separate.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.

21 Mark, does that result in a different rotational

22 speed, the 60 cycle versus the --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mm-hm.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So this

4 is all I have, have left.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: We're due for a break

6 right now. It's just about 10:35, which means we

7 will resume here at 10:50 in this room. Please

8 make sure to wear your badge. And the restroom is

9 into the hall and the coffee shop is right down

10 here, just 30 paces down the hall.

11 (SESSION BREAK)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like for us to

13 start back up. Please take your seats. Let's

14 start. Let's resume. So at the break I had a

15 conversation in the hallway with a few members of

16 the manufacturer's caucus and they raised an issue

17 or two that they wanted to bring to the fore. And

18 I don't know whether you do that now or whether

19 you want to do that later or -- Bob Barbour.

20 MR. BARBOUR: My only issue was on

21 the -- I was a little surprised that the test

22 procedure was not going to be part of the rule
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1 making, and I would have thought that we could

2 have put a one line statement in our task sheet

3 just stating to ASRAC that we recommended the use

4 of the HI test protocol, and hopefully it's going

5 to be ASRAC that's going to make the final

6 decision, isn't it?

7 MR. ADIN: Well, the ASRAC -- so

8 procedurally the way that works, is once, once the

9 working group has come up with a term sheet, we,

10 we vote on it. We present it to the ASRAC and the

11 ASRAC decides whether to accept it. So they do

12 their own vote and then they make a formal

13 recommendation to the Department. So we're making

14 a recommendation to the ASRAC of what they would

15 recommend to DOE, but, but the understanding that

16 whatever the ASRAC formally presents to DOE will

17 go into a proposed rule making.

18 So the only real difference between

19 putting a line in our term sheet that says

20 something about the test procedure and just

21 letting DOE do it, is that, you know, that

22 assuming the ASRAC accepts our recommendation,
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1 it'll get communicated to the DOE and go into the

2 proposal. What we're saying -- DOE is saying

3 that's -- you know, our intent is to use that, the

4 HI test method that John mentioned earlier. I

5 have been involved in that process --

6 MR. BARBOUR: Like make it one simple

7 -- Bob Barbour again. I thought it would make it

8 a simpler, streamlined-type approach if it was

9 part of our task sheet, that we've made that

10 recommendation and then you wouldn't necessarily

11 need to have a second NOPR. Wouldn't it all be on

12 the NOPR if ASRAC said yes?

13 MR. ADIN: It would still need to be

14 a separate NOPR. We never do it --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: DOE would still need to

16 do, as John said, their diligence. They'll still

17 need to do that, but --

18 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I mean

19 procedurally -- generally you want it to be that

20 way. You want there to be an understanding what

21 the proposed test procedure is in advance of a set

22 of proposed standards. So, I mean that's the way
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1 we normally do it and really there are advantages

2 to doing it that way. It gives us a chance to

3 collect --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, let me -- let me

5 ask you if, if this group gets incredibly

6 efficient all of a sudden --

7 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- and they decided they

9 wanted to devote some time because they've

10 uncovered that they had a little of more time in

11 their schedule than they had originally thought --

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: -- and wanted to give

14 some scrutiny to the HI test procedure proposal,

15 would that be a productive thing to do for this

16 group?

17 MR. ADIN: I mean --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't want to put you

19 on the spot.

20 MR. ADIN: I guess it depends. I

21 mean, my personal view is that the HI test method,

22 from what I understand, has already received a
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1 fair amount of scrutiny and DOE has had to some

2 extent -- one of our consultants has been involved

3 --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

5 MR. ADIN: Providing feedback.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

7 MR. ADIN: So that component of it

8 by itself -- my sense has been that there isn't a

9 whole lot of concern about that.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. ADIN: That component of it,

12 and so as long as there's an understanding that

13 that would form the basis of a test method, you

14 know.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I would just say,

16 when you made the announcement this morning I was

17 noticing at this end of the table there was some

18 kind of grumbling about, gee, don't we really need

19 to have this in place or an understanding of how

20 it's actually going to be before we establish this

21 standard level. So, I mean that was just kind of

22 this general tenor of under-the-table comment.
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1 But Louis Starr, go ahead.

2 MR. STARR: Yeah. This is Louis

3 Starr. I think more -- it's not the HI part of the

4 test metric. It's more the other, the extended

5 product part of the test metric. I bet Steve

6 could talk a lot about the motors and the motor

7 selection, how you make those motors. So it's

8 really all those other parts that have less to do

9 with the efficiency of the pump, but all the other

10 pieces that go onto the pump. And that's where

11 there probably would be heartburn in the test

12 metric.

13 One thought is, is actually we could

14 keep on the schedule where we're at and there

15 could be a meeting, perhaps afterwards, to be more

16 like a preliminary technical support document in

17 developing the pump metric further that include

18 the elements of the extended product that would

19 make the (inaudible) solution.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Another thought for us to

21 consider -- just based on what we've set up as a

22 capacity builder for the working group, is if it -
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1 - if there was significant interest in doing work

2 that we're not slated to do on the test metric,

3 that maybe we could establish a working group that

4 would devote some time and energy to it. That's

5 just another -- that's just another --

6 MR. ADIN: Sub-working group?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: A sub-working group.

8 Thank you for clarifying. Yes.

9 MR. ADIN: Right. I apologize. I

10 didn't meant to interrupt.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: No, please. Please

12 proceed.

13 MR. ADIN: Certainly that's

14 something for the group to think about. I mean I

15 think -- we made some general remarks about that

16 at the last meeting. Maybe it just wasn't really

17 -- we had a lot more pressing things to discuss at

18 that time.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

20 MR. ADIN: But now it's clear, you

21 know, where things are kind of falling out

22 procedurally and, you know, what we need to know
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1 to make real decisions. So if the groups feels --

2 you know, that's something where a lot more

3 certainty is needed, then, you know, a working

4 group -- or a sub-group might be the way to

5 provide -- to figure that out separately so that

6 we don't have to spend working group time that we

7 need to deal with the standards dealing with the

8 metric part of it.

9 So, I mean we've -- our intent in

10 discussing the metric up until this point has been

11 to provide as much, as much as we can to the

12 working group that will, you know, essentially let

13 everyone feel comfortable with what we're

14 proposing to do going into the standards, you

15 know, so that specific negotiations on those

16 elements aren't needed and wouldn't -- we wouldn't

17 have to spend the time that we have, since we

18 don't have that much more time, on those elements.

19 Because we could -- you know, all of

20 these different aspects of variable speed drives

21 and the motors, and we could clearly spend a lot

22 of time talking about those things. So I think we
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1 just wanted to be -- I think we just wanted to

2 make sure that we're using our time productively

3 and, you know, a sub-group might be a way to deal

4 with it if there's still lingering concerns about

5 that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Delaney.

7 MR. DELANEY: Yeah, Dan Delaney,

8 Regal. One of the things I was a little confused

9 about, if we don't do the test procedure -- I'll

10 assume we're going to provide a term sheet for

11 this, assume that we'd make a recommendation of

12 the HI test procedure with that term sheet, are we

13 not just avoiding the fact that a test procedure

14 NOPR of some type would have to be done? So

15 regardless, Lucas, is a test procedure NOPR going

16 to be required anyway?

17 MR. ADIN: Yes. Yes.

18 MR. DELANY: So even if we do a sub19 working group, it's just going to support a test

20 procedure NOPR; is that correct?

21 MR. ADIN: Right. So.

22 MR. DELANY: So.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right. And that was the

2 point, I think, John made earlier when he was

3 here. Test procedure NOPR will be required anyway.

4 I mean, essentially the working group would just

5 be providing more specific recommendations about

6 what should go in that NOPR, but even if we don't,

7 you know, we've been trying to provide as much of

8 a sense as to what, you know, we think is

9 appropriate and get as much feedback from the

10 group that will inform what DOE would put into

11 such a NOPR. I mean it's a question of how much,

12 how much you want to have specifically laid out in

13 the term sheet.

14 MR. DELANEY: And I guess just to

15 follow-up that, Lucas, -- Dan Delaney from Regal

16 Beloit -- what would be the timing of that? So

17 it's serial. Or is it at some point -- what I

18 didn't understand was the timing, obviously, how

19 critical that test procedure being part of, you

20 know, the term sheet and providing the final

21 information. Is that something that can start

22 parallel or does that have to start after the July
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1 meetings or so?

2 MR. ADIN: With respect to the

3 publication of a proposal or --

4 MR. DELANY: To this test procedure

5 NOPR.

6 MR. ADIN: So, I mean in theory, a

7 proposal could be published before and -- whether

8 that's realistic is a different question. I don't

9 know if I can, how specific I can be about that,

10 but, I mean in effect right now, they're, they're

11 going on a parallel.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder, do you wish

13 to comment?

14 MS. WIDDER: I just wanted to clarify

15 a little bit. I think our intent -- tomorrow we

16 have some time that we've tentatively slotted for

17 discussing the metric, and I think the goal has

18 always been to sort of establish within the

19 working group those test procedure items that

20 affect setting the standard, which include the

21 load points and the weights, the general

22 architecture, especially as it applies to bigger
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1 pumps, those assumptions that are made for bare

2 pumps.

3 So all of those things, I think, whether

4 or not we vote on them, is a decision that the

5 group can make, but they can certainly have

6 recommendations or a pretty good understanding

7 moving forward of those items that will affect the

8 standard level. But then there's a lot of other

9 issues, as everyone's aware, of translating HI

10 40.6 test data into the metric for a given pump

11 that don't necessarily affect the standard,

12 especially like controls-related issues. Since

13 we're, we're basing the standard just on bare pump

14 performance, those are important issues about the

15 rating your pump receives, but not necessarily

16 affecting the standard level that's chosen.

17 And so that's how -- we do want to

18 address all the issues as much as we can that

19 relate to the metric. And that will affect the

20 standard, and so we, we will talk about that

21 tomorrow. But there's a number of issues that

22 might be relegated to the test procedure NOPR
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1 because they're just really test procedure and

2 rating related.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Sarah, that was

4 helpful. Thank you. Louis Starr.

5 MR. STARR: So let me see if I

6 understand this properly. So things like maybe

7 there needs to be some tweaks to some of the

8 control factors and all these other numbers we can

9 thoroughly negotiate a standards level and come

10 back later through the NOPR on the test procedure

11 and adjust those.

12 So we'd really be adjusting the standard

13 levels we agreed -- for instance, let's say we

14 take a -- instead of .96 on the control factor, we

15 decided that .92 was really the one that we

16 should've used, but we negotiated the standard

17 level based on .96. So would we readjust those

18 standard levels that we came up with out of this

19 meeting down to a lower level?

20 MS. WIDDER: Well, so just to be

21 clear, the .96 doesn't affect the standard level

22 because we're setting the standard just based on
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1 bare pumps performance.

2 MR. STARR: So I probably chose one

3 of the things that didn't matter, but there must

4 be, there must be some other items in there --

5 MS. WIDDER: The specific items that

6 we -- so we've sort of thought about how to set

7 the standard and what metric issues are related.

8 And the list we've come up are motor sizing and

9 losses. So we're definitely going to get into

10 that in depth tomorrow. And at least have a -- we

11 might not resolve all the details tomorrow, but if

12 we can have a general idea of -- sort of like we

13 did with the definition -- the intent. So if we

14 didn't get the conservative motor losses curve

15 exactly right because testing is still -- you

16 know, some of the things you mentioned earlier. If

17 we have an intent going out of tomorrow, we can

18 implement that in the NOPR.

19 But motor losses and motor sizing, the

20 load points and weights, which I think we're

21 pretty close on, but just getting some

22 conformation on that, and the general
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1 architecture, meaning like the ratioed value that

2 we've been discussing. And then we need to

3 discuss the standard and label thing, but that,

4 that really doesn't affect the number.

5 So those are the things that, that we've

6 come up with that affect the standard level.

7 They're right there. And then there's -- there's

8 a bunch of other things that we talked about, the

9 control, everything related to controls, including

10 what controls have system curves, what those

11 system curves look like, what the efficiency of

12 controls are. They won't affect how the standard

13 is set.

14 In addition, there's some details about

15 -- so you sweep a pump curve and you have a bunch

16 of data, and how do you move from that data to

17 pump shaft input power? Do you regress it or do

18 you interpolate or -- there's some very technical

19 issues with regard to how you determine a rating

20 for a given pump, but it won't affect the analysis

21 that Alison and Dan will do in terms of how things

22 shake out in the market.
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1 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. My

2 only concern is that whatever ends up happening,

3 is that it not be in the advantageous -- it'd be

4 advantageous to actually test something and get

5 some real world results out of it rather than

6 always doing a calculate, calculating one. So

7 whatever ends up in a test standards such that the

8 metric reflects that that be, you know, that the

9 measured one always comes out better.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. STARR: I just don't want us to

12 get backed in in such a way that that wouldn't

13 fall out.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I'm

15 just going to propose that possibly since -- we

16 finish up with the standards and then when John

17 comes in, maybe we can return to -- or you guys

18 can think about over lunch or whatever, how you

19 want to propose handling the test procedure, and

20 then maybe we can revisit that. Would that work?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I think basically we've

22 covered what I thought -- the individuals I spoke
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1 to, to cover at this point. And the explanation

2 you gave and this slide, that's helpful, and I'm

3 ready for us to proceed with the work at hand

4 here. But I just -- I thought we've, we've aired

5 this issue early on as, as we did. Steve.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

7 I don't think it'd be harmful to have just one

8 line in a term sheet talking about -- we also

9 discussed test procedures and trying to

10 incorporate what we think the DOE test procedure

11 might look like. You know, our deliberations,

12 something like that.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's definitely an

14 option and this working group can choose to

15 comment as it wishes to, provided, I would say --

16 What I'm going to drive us toward, what I think we

17 all want to do is, is accomplish the task set out

18 for us by ASRAC. Go ahead, Bob.

19 MR. BARBOUR: One question. You had

20 mentioned that the metric was going to be based on

21 the bare pump only. I thought the metric was

22 going to have bare pump, pump plus a -- maybe a
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1 high efficiency motor and pump high efficiency

2 motor and control all within the standard.

3 MS. WIDDER: So, to be clear, the --

4 a given pump can be rated as a bare pump plus a

5 default motor, a pump plus a more efficient motor

6 that it's sold with, or a pump plus a more

7 efficient motor and controls. And that will be

8 reflected in the rating, but the way the standard

9 is set -- so the design options that Dan and

10 Alison are considering is only looking at

11 improvements to pump efficiency. And so we're

12 setting the standard. The lowest common

13 denominator or the worst, the worst way you can

14 sell your pump essentially is as a bare pump.

15 And so we're just assuming that for all

16 the pumps that are available. So it only helps

17 manufacturers comply with the standard. It

18 doesn't really affect the setting of the standard.

19 MR. HANDZEL: So this is Mark

20 Handzel. So, so, I'm okay with that because, as

21 we talked before, what the pump manufacturers

22 control is our pump design.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Exactly. Right.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So that's why -

3 - what you're saying is, is that that's what we're

4 going -- that's what we have in our span of

5 control, so that's what we should be focused on.

6 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

7 MR. HANDZEL: But the concern that,

8 that Bob and others have is that when we introduce

9 the motor and the drive, you know, taking set

10 efficiency values and some, some of the things

11 that we're doing now, are leading to false

12 calculations that we would not be able to emulate

13 on a test stand if we were doing wire to water

14 efficiency testing.

15 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

16 MR. HANDZEL: So, so that's,

17 that's, I think, is kind of the summary of what

18 our issue is. So, you know, we understand that you

19 have to take some assumptions and we're doing

20 those in the calculator, but if we actually, you

21 know, put a drive and a motor on one of our pumps,

22 you know, that meets the PER --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hm.

2 MR. HANDZEL: You know, we probably

3 could not meet the number that we're calculating

4 right now in the calculator.

5 MS. WIDDER: So that's something

6 that we can certainly address, and maybe tomorrow

7 --

8 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

9 MS. WIDDER: We'll talk about, more

10 about is --

11 MR. HANDZEL: It's just that we'll

12 indicate that that's what we're going to do.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. That's

14 certainly the intent. And we don't have as much

15 information on tested pump performance as clearly

16 you do. And so that's where we really need some

17 feedback just like that from you guys.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are we good?

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yep.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, we're good.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just restate,
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1 though. I'm following a couple of conversations

2 that are happening informally here and members of

3 the energy efficiency caucus are also stating they

4 share that concern and they would like to engage

5 in that discussion when appropriate, as the

6 manufacturer's just described, Mark Handzel being

7 the spokesperson. Now we're going to proceed.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So today I'm

9 going to go over some updates to the LCC and try

10 to answer also the questions that were posed last

11 week since I guess the responses didn't get seen.

12 And then I'm also going to go through the

13 shipments and NIA model.

14 So just to review, the lifecycle costs

15 model, it looks at impacts to individual

16 consumers. So basically run a sample of 10,000

17 consumers, and if, and they each are assigned

18 pumps based on, you know, our pumps data base and

19 what percentage of people buy different pumps.

20 And what the LCC is looking at is whether the

21 increased costs to a person for buying a more

22 efficient pump are offset by the benefits they get
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1 in energy savings or not. So we'll go through all

2 that.

3 The shipments model then looks at the --

4 so the LCC doesn't necessarily look at the entire

5 population of pumps; whereas, the shipments and

6 the NIA reflect the, all the pumps in scope across

7 the nation. And so in this shipments model we'll

8 go through how we're trying to project shipments

9 across a 30 year analysis period.

10 And the national impact analysis

11 basically takes the results of the LCC in terms

12 of, you know, average increased costs and average

13 energy savings, applies that to the shipments and

14 calculates national energy savings and national

15 net present value. So I'll go through each of

16 these in detail. But this is just sort of an

17 overview of how these pieces fit together.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay.

19 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve

20 Council. Can you just -- I want to make sure I

21 heard you correctly. On the LCC it says if you

22 did or did not take all of the different pump
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1 types into account?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, so currently the

3 LCC -- okay. So until now you've only seen

4 results on the LCC for ESCC, ESFM and IL in-line.

5 Today we're going to add results for vertical

6 turbine submersible. We still haven't run

7 anything for radial split vertical because we

8 wanted to come to a consensus on what C values we

9 should be using and what data we should be using

10 basically, because what we have is really minimal.

11 So today we'll have results for 4 out of the 5

12 pump types.

13 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is just,

15 again, putting this in perspective, the life --

16 the lifecycle cost analysis is one of the things

17 that we look at when, when determining standard

18 level. So it's just a piece of information for

19 you guys to look at to decide what you think. So

20 this starts just a review of the inputs and this

21 gets at some of the questions that were asked.

22 So on this first one, last week the pump
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1 manufacturers recommended that the pump -- this

2 category in red, pump OEM to distributor, to

3 contactor, to end user, be changed from 17% to

4 70%. So basically flips, flips these two to make

5 the one in red the more common distribution

6 channel as suggested by the manufacturers. And so

7 this results in a new mark up, baseline markup of

8 1.59 and incremental markup of 1.34. So it

9 increases the markup slightly because you're

10 adding another factor in the distribution channel.

11 So, I don't -- hopefully everyone is okay with

12 that change.

13 So the next question was about this

14 slide. It's -- we'd like an explanation as to

15 where the new weights came from. So these are the

16 load profiles. Because we don't have very much

17 data, we're just basically simulating four

18 different load profiles that are assigned at

19 random. We looked at them before and they don't

20 really make a whole lot of difference in the

21 results.

22 But at the last meeting it was suggested
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1 that hardly anyone is going to run their pump

2 above 100% BEP flow. This LP3 profile in purple

3 is the one that has a point above 110% flow. So

4 we decreased its weight in the sample from 25% to

5 10% and increased the others accordingly to

6 basically reduce the incidence of, of pumps

7 running above BEP flow. So that was in response

8 to feedback. So if you guys have concerns about

9 that change, we can certainly tweak that again.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Alison -- Mark Handzel

11 from Xylem. This is, this is one of those ones

12 that we kind of struggle with because I think the

13 EU used 25% across the board. But I think their

14 25 was based on 25%, 75%, -- 50%, 75% and 100%,

15 okay? So, so they didn't even have anything at

16 110%.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

18 MR. HANDZEL: So.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I'm not

20 entirely sure how they did their analysis. They

21 don't really do this type of analysis in this much

22 detail, so this is a little bit disconnected from
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1 what the load points are in the metric. We're

2 just trying to get a sense of where pumps operate

3 across their operating range. And because there's

4 limited data, we basically just created these four

5 synthetic profiles. You know, flat one, one

6 that's slightly overloaded, one that's slightly

7 under-loaded. We did -- I haven't really showed

8 the results, but we did do some analysis on it,

9 and if you change those profiles, it basically

10 makes hardly any difference in the results.

11 So I actually think that changing this -

12 - tweaking this will have -- like you probably

13 wouldn't even be able to see the impact of the

14 numbers.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I also recall that the

16 crux of the conversation was that the load point

17 at 25, that -- you didn't want to go there anyway.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Right. And

19 that the

20 --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

22 MR. HANDZEL: And we could all spend
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1 days and weeks or years arguing load profiles.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and so I just -

3 - this is separate from the load points in the

4 metric.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: This is just load

7 profiles to get energy use in the LCC.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Sure.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: And I am very

10 confident that these changes, tweaks in this will

11 have very minimal impact. So I would recommend

12 that, that unless there's a major concern with it,

13 there's, like things like operating hours and

14 lifetime --

15 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: She's telling us she

17 wants to move on. Charlie, go ahead.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just want to offer

19 support. I think that's a good representation of

20 the typical load profile of our pumps, and I think

21 as manufacturers we ought to, you know, either,

22 either, either support it or propose an
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1 alternative. And we ought to do it now because we

2 don't want to just keep

3 --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- grinding away on

6 something that doesn't have a lot of impact in the

7 end anyways. So.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So this is Mark. We

9 raised this issue just because somebody -- some of

10 us recall that you said on the webinar that this

11 was based on new information from somebody. We

12 just wanted to know what the information was.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So this was at

14 the last meeting, yeah.

15 MR. HANDZEL: So now that the way

16 you've explained it, I know I'm okay with it.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So I think you can

19 proceed. Other than Steve.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No. I was just going to

21 ask, and this could be considered a sensitivity

22 analysis, we'd be able to show the results with
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1 both just to show that it's not really having an

2 impact?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean we could. I

4 think I have a slide somewhere in an old deck that

5 basically showed there were no results. It would

6 be a lot of work --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think the point

8 she's, she's making, and it seems like the

9 majority agrees, is that it's not worth the effort

10 --

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like the effort's

13 better spent elsewhere.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's focus on

16 where there are potentially big impacts.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And let's move on.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. For those who

19 don't know, I'm Ashley, by the way. You can call

20 me whatever. Lucas, Ashley, sorry. I oversee

21 test procedures here at the Department and I'm

22 stepping in for Lucas for a little while. So.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So, okay. So the next

2 slide I just threw in. There was a question about

3 where this data is used. I wasn't fully sure what

4 exactly you guys wanted to know about this. So

5 basically this is the operating hours

6 distributions that we're using in the LCC.

7 And so the quintiles are just sort of

8 representation, but like 20% of customers with a

9 cooling water application will be assigned 2,500

10 hours a year, 20% will be assigned 3,500, 20% get

11 5,000 and so on. So it's supposed to represent

12 the range of operating hours across each

13 individual application that we're modeling.

14 MR. HANDZEL: So -- It's Mark

15 Handzel from Xylem. Alison, I just think we, we

16 weren't clear on all those details. So, I mean --

17 or where they came from. So I guess that was

18 really kind of the question

19 --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Where they --

21 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, was it --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so the -- this
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1 is -- let's see. The operating hours come from a

2 combination of a motors database we have of in3 field operating hours. And we've also compared it

4 to the estimates that we received from our

5 consultant. And they're actually fairly

6 consistent. I had a slide a while back, that I

7 don't have in here right now that compared them

8 and, but, but, sort of the average was in the same

9 range.

10 So again, this is -- we don't limit the

11 data. The problem with field data for motors is

12 that a lot of it is audited, which tends to focus

13 on pumps and motors that are running most often.

14 So it could possibly be skewed to higher operating

15 hours. So that's, you know, that's why we

16 compared it to our consultant's estimate also.

17 And it looks like it wasn't too skewed. So we've

18 shown this before and haven't really gotten much

19 feedback on it. And I know it's hard for you guys

20 to know really how much pumps are used --

21 MR. HANDZEL: We completely

22 understand it was part of the problem. So --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So basically the

2 quintile of three is essentially the median. So,

3 you know, users in, in, are using, you know, 1,000

4 hours for irrigation and pressure boost, and then

5 4 to 5 for cooling water, boiler feed, and

6 circulation. And then there's customers on either

7 side of those ends that are using different

8 amounts of hours. So everything in the LCC is

9 based on a distribution. And so people are

10 randomly assigned these operating hours based on -

11 -

12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. So just

13 one other question that I came up with.

14 Circulation. What does circulation mean? Because

15 cooling water to me is like a chilled water system

16 in this building. Well, that's a circulation

17 system. Okay? So what is, what is that

18 circulation system --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: That is a good

20 point.

21 MR. HANDZEL: So just -- this is

22 some contradiction. That's really the main one
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1 that sticks out to me.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Would that be like a

3 service hot water?

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Cooling, cooling water.

5 Charlie Cappellino. So cooling water to me would

6 be like a cooling tower.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. That's what I

8 was --

9 MR. HANDZEL: So circulation could

10 be a heating system or a chilled water circulation

11 system.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: We have a chilled water

13 pump and a condenser water pump, so --

14 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. But that's --

15 but that's the type of thing that's just not real

16 clear.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and it's

18 actually hard to get that granular view of data,

19 but, yeah, what Charlie said is basically the gist

20 of what we're trying to capture in these

21 applications.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 Would the hot water, service hot water pumps be

3 under the other, or would it be under -- I'm just

4 kind of curious.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I believe -- I

6 believe that they're under circulation. I could

7 double check on that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, do you have --

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was thinking in

10 commercial buildings, where, you know, the, the --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Carlie Cappellino, ITT.

13 So just so I understand. So that the quintiles,

14 those are basically buckets of 20% distribution?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, it's, it's

16 basically just giving you a representation of the

17 distribution of operating hours that we use.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Operating hours of a

19 particular unit.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So, you know,

21 each consumer is assigned an application based on

22 weights we developed through data. And so within
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1 any application, you know, as I said before, 20%,

2 20% of users with cooling water get 2,500 hours,

3 20% get the 3,500, 20% get 5,000 and so on.

4 MR. HANDZEL: So one addition -- go

5 ahead. Sorry.

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: And then, so then how

7 do you use that information mathematically to

8 calculate -

9 -

10 MR. HANDZEL: So what percentage of

11 cooling water -- you know, you have all this big

12 pump universe. What percent of cooling water,

13 what percent of boiler, what percent of

14 circulation --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so I don't

16 have that data in my slide deck today. It was in

17 a previous deck. So maybe last month. So I don't

18 have that offhand, but we pulled that from the

19 motors database. Also we coded everything into

20 applications that we determined and, and then used

21 those percentages. So, it's pretty --

22 MR. HANDZEL: But did the motor base
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1 -- motor database break it down by those type of

2 pump applications?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah they had -- I

4 mean it was difficult, right, but they had comment

5 fields that talked about what type of pump it was.

6 And so we -- that's why we used to actually have

7 more applications and we condensed them because it

8 was not super detailed in the motors database, but

9 we did -- we were able to code them into these

10 categories.

11 MR. HANDZEL: And Alison, I guess

12 that -- you know, obviously you put this slide in

13 because you revised the other.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

15 MR. HANDZEL: The other to us was,

16 you know, that's pretty much inconsequential --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Because you have to

19 figure that's a very small percentage of the

20 market, but I don't think we've ever seen this

21 data in this presentation before, in this format

22 before --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so --

2 MR. HANDZEL: Which is why you're

3 getting drilled on it now. So --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I think you saw it

5 the previous month, but, I mean, it takes --

6 MR. HANDZEL: No.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: -- a while for things

8 to sink in. So it's fine that we can review it

9 now. You know, all this has -- we -- but

10 basically when we first presented the LCC, we

11 present our initial set of inputs, and since then

12 we've only been presenting inputs that have

13 changed because we didn't receive feedback on the

14 other ones.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: It is certainly not

17 too late to provide that feedback. My deck

18 doesn't have all of them in there right now, but,

19 you know -- but what I want to go back to is,

20 unless there's something major, like, oh, it's not

21 4,000, it's 8,000 or -- but if we're just going

22 like, you know, 4,000 to 4,500, those kind of
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1 things aren't going to majorly impact your

2 results.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

4 Xylem. So Alison, I think we've said numerous

5 times before too, we don't typically have

6 application data.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. Right.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So we don't have

9 anything to refute it.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

11 MR. HANDZEL: But we were just

12 trying to understand --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sure.

14 MR. HANDZEL: How you developed this

15 and how you were using it. So that was, I think,

16 the basis for our questions.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hm. So does this

18 --

19 MR. HANDZEL: If anybody else, you

20 know, dig in.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay, go ahead.

22 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny,
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1 Flowserve. Quick question. How do you correlate

2 the application back to the pump type?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so these

4 slides were in the April meeting also, I think.

5 Basically we have -- I wish I had that slide. We

6 have a few different data sources that we

7 basically have to triangulate together to get that

8 relationship. So from the motor -- I don't

9 believe the motors database is very good data on

10 pump type, and so that's mostly application. We

11 have a consultant report that correlates

12 application to pump type. And, and so, you know,

13 for example vertical turbine submersible is going

14 to be more weighted to irrigation than some of the

15 other pump types are.

16 So we had some different data sources.

17 You know, we can pull up -- you know, we can --

18 well, they're on the SharePoint already. Like if

19 you guys want to review tonight the whole data set

20 from the LCC, I'm pretty sure it was in the April

21 meeting. We can -- and send me any comments you

22 have, you can do that also.
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1 MR. SIVIGNY: Yeah. Jay Sivigny,

2 Flowserve. I think it's important, at least for

3 me, I'd like to kind of get a better feel for how

4 we mapped the end-suction foot-mounted, end5 suction close-coupled to this specific application

6 so we can see with a little more granularity.

7 And the second point I'd like to make,

8 certain things you mentioned don't have any

9 impact. So there's no, necessarily a need for a

10 sensitivity analysis. From what I've heard, pump

11 manufacturers have limited application knowledge

12 and your dataset seems to be limited. You said in

13 your own words, it's difficult. Would this lend

14 itself to some sort of sensitivity analysis where

15 -- let's say you were wrong plus or minus 20%. Is

16 that something that could be done or is that a

17 mountain of work?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so I -- I mean

19 we can do it. I think once we look at the

20 results, maybe then you guys will want to consider

21 how necessary some of these things are.

22 MR. SIVIGNY: Right.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: I, you know, like

2 news breaker, right? We saw before the energy

3 savings dwarfed the costs in almost all

4 situations. So unless you're making a fairly

5 significant change to the energy savings, we can,

6 we can certainly run some like major

7 sensitivities. But I think when you see the

8 results, it'll help put it in perspective, like

9 how much of a difference some of these changes

10 will make.

11 MR. SIVIGNY: Well, how much you run

12 a pump directly drives the energy savings.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Exactly. Right.

14 MR. SIVIGNY: And so if you're not -

15 - so if these numbers are too high, you're not

16 going to see this --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So like when you see

18 the results of, you know -- you can think, well,

19 if I reduced it by 20%, it'd still be dwarfing the

20 cost --

21 MR. SIVIGNY: The costs.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: You know, we can, we
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1 can --

2 MR. SIVIGNY: Sure.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm happy to look at

4 that, but I think let's put everything in

5 perspective, maybe.

6 MR. SIVIGNY: Got it.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Especially since It's

8 hard to actually have concrete feedback. But we

9 can definitely review.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

11 MR. STARR: So, and it sounds like

12 this would be directly proportional, so you could

13 kind of do what you're saying. You literally

14 could reduce the output--

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

16 MR. STARR: The costs, it would be

17 directly proportional to energy savings to number

18 of hours, so --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hm.

20 MR. SIVIGNY: Sure.

21 MR. STARR: Well, yeah, so got it.

22 We can do the sensitivity analysis --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yeah. I'm

2 just saying it doesn't need to be done super

3 detailed.

4 MR. STARR: No. No.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: You could just

6 eyeball it. Yeah. Okay. So lifetime, we had --

7 this all -- this includes lifetime for vertical

8 turbine submersible which is new, and we also

9 revised the lifetimes for the others. In

10 particular, the feedback we got last week was that

11 28 years for ESFM and five repairs was overstated.

12 So what we actually did was randomize

13 the repairs for ESFMs, so now everyone gets

14 randomly between one and five. And so the average

15 is 2.6 and 2.7. It dropped the lifetime down to

16 21 and 19. So that's what we changed in response

17 to your feedback last week.

18 Let's see what else did you guys ask.

19 Oh, the average of mechanical life in hours comes

20 from consultant estimates because there's really

21 basically no database for that. And we adjusted

22 it based on feedback of the April meeting that
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1 said ESFM should be much higher than ESCC, and

2 3600 should be less than 1800. So we started with

3 consultant estimates and then adjusted based on

4 your feedback. And so now we've adjusted again to

5 reduced the repair cycle for

6 ESFM.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

9 For the ESCC 1800, you say 31,000 hours and you

10 showed the range in the previous slide of like

11 2,500 to 7,500 hours -- well it depends on the

12 application --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So the previous slide

14 is operating hours and this slide is lifetime and

15 mechanical -- mechanical lifetime in hours. So if

16 you

17 --

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: You know, divide the

20 average mechanical lifetime by operating hours --

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: You get an average
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1 lifetime

2 --

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: With your quintile

4 three, is like anywhere from 3,000 - well, it's

5 1,000 to 5,000 hours. Okay. Because you're

6 showing average and I'm just kind of curious, you

7 know, when you look at that graph, the median

8 seems to be a lot lower for a lot of those --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, yes.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- durations.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is the

12 distributions. You can see that it peaks at a much

13 lower level.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. To determine

15 average lifetime, wouldn't it be better to say

16 median with this type of data scatter?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Probably it would be.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

19 MS. MAUER: Alison, this is Joanna.

20 Can you just explain quickly what a repair means

21 exactly?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is a little
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1 bit of a loose definition. This came from our

2 consultant. My understanding is that often the

3 ESCC pumps that are really small are what are more

4 termed throw-away pumps, whereas ESFM often get

5 refurbished. I'm sure a lot of these guys can,

6 can comment. I mean you could even like take the

7 impeller out and rebuild it and put it back in.

8 So it could be any number of things.

9 Basically it means you have essentially the same

10 casing, the same mount and everything, and you're

11 doing various things to, to rebuild it over its

12 lifetime. Do you any of you guys want to comment

13 on that? Okay.

14 MR. HANDZEL: It runs the full --

15 Mark Handzel from Xylem. It runs the whole gamut,

16 though. I mean certainly the frame-mounted pumps,

17 you know, they could vary from 1-1/4 inch

18 discharge up to an 8 inch discharge and, you know.

19 I mean a lot of it -- and if you're getting into a

20 commercial building service, a lot of it has to do

21 with the depreciation that the owner's allowed.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: So, you know, I mean I

2 can kind of see the, the average lifetime maybe

3 being a little bit lower than you're showing, but

4 it's better than it was.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --

6 MR. HANDZEL: So, so, I mean --

7 again, I can, you know, swallow it, but it, it

8 does seem a little high. But I think it's okay.

9 I guess some of my concerns is that, you know,

10 typically -- no, never mind. It's okay. I think

11 it's right.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So I mean you

13 guys are welcome to think about this, and if you

14 have more comments, feel free to send them to me

15 tonight or whenever and, you know, we can, we can

16 make more changes. Okay. So this next -- I think

17 that is all, basically all the questions on inputs

18 that we received last week.

19 This slide I just have up here because

20 we added vertical turbine submersible. We haven't

21 shown it before. We are using different sector

22 weights for this. We have more weight in
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1 agriculture and municipal than in commercial as

2 compared to the other sectors. That was our

3 understanding, is that they're typically used in

4 different -- more often in agriculture than others

5 are and more often in municipal. So I don't know

6 if anyone has feedback on that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

9 Just looking at the commercial section and then

10 just thinking about your hours of operation where

11 you showed 20% having, you know, 7,500 hours of

12 operation, in a lot of commercial buildings, you

13 know, systems are shut off at night. They're not

14 going to be anywhere near 7,500. Again, I'm just

15 thinking commercial applications. Yeah. That one

16 right there.

17 So again, whichever ones -- again, you

18 know, in terms of the mapping, you know,

19 especially for commercial applications, you might

20 want to make this more of a bell curve rather than

21 a flat 20% each way because 7,500 hours for a

22 commercial pump per year just seems overstated for
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1 commercial pump application. I'm thinking mostly

2 commercial buildings, you know, like this one, you

3 know, those pumps are not going to be going for

4 7,500 -- especially on -- whether it's cooling

5 water or a boiler side, especially in this

6 climate, you know. Or --

7 MR. TOWSLEY: Or hotels down south -

8 -

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's a different

10 story.

11 MR. HANDZEL: -- Miami, for an example -

12 -

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hotels are totally

14 different. I'm saying other commercial buildings,

15 retail, office, warehouse, etc. You know, that

16 7,500 is going to be just -- or say even 6,000 is,

17 you know, it's not going to be -- I, in my mind,

18 in my perspective, it's not going to be 20%. It's

19 probably going to be closer to 5% to 10%.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

21 MR. STARR: Well, I mean one thing,

22 you know, heating. I'll think you'll need heating
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1 day and night, so that would be the heating side.

2 So 7,500 would, to my mind, even just one of those

3 heating coils in the building means that you'll be

4 running your pump. And on the cooling side, you

5 know, to some extent they still run the system

6 even though that there may not be as large a

7 demand. So there are systems that are going to

8 run quite a few hours a year. So --

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And a lot are going to

10 be shut down at night because of the energy

11 management --

12 MR. STARR: Well, that's why you have

13 the split, though, of the, the --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Delaney.

15 MR. DELANEY: The one that I was

16 going to note back on this application slide from

17 our motor information -- we're kind of in a

18 similar situation as the pump guys. We don't have

19 that application information and the note that we

20 had when we went through our rule making was that

21 most of the information we saw for hours was a

22 good 20%, 30% high versus what we had. We had
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1 very limited data.

2 But our hours, hours were typically --

3 the DOE information was about 20% to 30% higher

4 than what we saw our applications running. We

5 were more conservative on our savings and that

6 because we're figuring the hours in which we had

7 seen. So I would agree 7,500 hours is not, not

8 typically for something we'd see -- something in

9 the five to six thousand at the top end.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, do you have a

11 comment here?

12 MR. TOWSLEY: No.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I mean -- If, if you

15 guys want to provide more specific feedback about,

16 you know, what you think it, it should be, we can

17 go over that later. It's, it is hard, you know --

18 this is, this is why we've been over this three

19 times.

20 Someone's like, oh, maybe change, this

21 is a little high, and then maybe we'll overshoot

22 or something. So it is -- we can certainly make
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1 adjustments. It's nicer to have a little more

2 concrete feedback than maybe 7,500 is too high.

3 But we will look into that. Okay.

4 So results. First, as we did before,

5 there are two scenarios. The first one assumes

6 you can't pass through any costs to your customers

7 and the second one assumes you're passing through

8 full costs to your customers. So just as a

9 reminder, this is basically what Dan's last curve

10 is. This is just the base case MSP model. I

11 failed to update these. I just pulled it in to

12 remind you guys what we're looking at, but this is

13 basically like -- the current market structure for

14 pricing is the same in the base case and the

15 standards case. So not surprisingly in this case,

16 the average LCC savings are positive for

17 everything because -- the delta increased cost is

18 very small.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Alison, sorry to

20 interrupt.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hm.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from
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1 Xylem. So, so we had a question, just, you know -

2 -

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, right. Yeah.

4 MR. HANDZEL: In the slide deck,

5 there was an original scenario --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so the, so --

7 MR. HANDZEL: Slide eight.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: That was a, was a

9 mistake on my part. Those are not the same bin --

10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Like flow -- they're

12 not the same size pumps.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So when my staff

15 updated the data, they put in different ones.

16 MR. HANDZEL: So that explains why

17 it jumped from 800 to 1,200.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: It didn't actually

19 jump. It was, it was not a directly comparable.

20 I apologize for that confusion.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. All right.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Their -- Dan's
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1 MSP model has not changed drastically this whole

2 time, basically. He just presented the update

3 today, which is pretty minor. So what we're doing

4 this time that you haven't seen before is showing

5 results by size bin.

6 What happens is that a lot of the large

7 pump -- people who have large pumps get a lot of

8 savings compared to their costs, and people who

9 have small pumps don't. So we thought we'd break

10 it out. You can see the scales on these are very

11 different. The small one only goes up to 800, the

12 medium to 3,000 and the large to 9,000. I wish I

13 had these labeled.

14 The small is approximately 1 to 10

15 horsepower. The medium is approximately 10 to 60,

16 and the large is approximately 60 to 200. So we

17 just wanted to show different results just so you

18 can see - - yeah.

19 MR. HANDZEL: So before you were

20 just giving us the whole -- Mark Handzel. I'm

21 sorry. You were giving us the whole thing.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. The total --
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1 this one on the upper left, the total --

2 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: -- was the only thing

4 that you've been shown before.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT.

6 The vertical scale is savings annual or --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Average -- average --

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Lifetime --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: -- LCC savings of

10 lifecycle cost savings. So it's, yeah --

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Over the lifetime of the

12 --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. And I've

14 another one that compares -- so this is -- also

15 you've seen this before where the top is the

16 change in operating costs and the bottom, which is

17 much smaller, is the increase in purchase price.

18 So the increase in purchase price occurs once,

19 right, and then the operating costs savings are

20 over the lifetime of, of the unit. So it -- this

21 is basically just -- we know that this is going to

22 happen. This is a no-cost recovery scenario.
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1 So you're getting all these energy

2 savings, because this assumes that the

3 manufacturers are, are just having to suck up

4 those costs themselves. For the consumer, it's

5 going to be a win because, you know, this is

6 basically burdening the manufacturers.

7 So this is, this is sort of the lower

8 bound scenario, which is the best case for

9 consumers and the worst case for manufacturers.

10 So there's a lot of results in here. I'm sure

11 we'll send out the slides and you guys can take a

12 look at them in more detail later. We have -- you

13 can just see here everything's positive across the

14 board, all equipment types, all sizes, all

15 efficiency levels.

16 So again, this is not surprising for

17 this, this, basically benefit to the customer

18 scenario. There's essentially hardly any -- this

19 was another question from last week -- was the

20 benefit -- like the winners/losers, net

21 benefit/net cost things.

22 So basically in here, I think this was
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1 labeled before net cost. So losers are people who

2 pay more in increased costs for a more efficient

3 pump than they save in energy. So they're

4 basically worse off than they were before;

5 whereas, winners are saving more in energy over

6 the lifetime of their pump than they paid in

7 increased costs. So they are benefitting from the

8 standard.

9 The people who are not impacted were --

10 are- - like if the standard was at PER 40, they

11 were already purchasing a pump at PER 40 and

12 above, and therefore, the standard doesn't impact

13 them because they were already purchasing

14 something that's still okay. So that's sort of

15 what this breakdown is. Like some people are

16 going to benefit from the standard, some people

17 are going to be burdened, and some people, it just

18 doesn't impact them at all.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, we have an

20 individual who's joining us live. Al Iseppon asks

21 with regard to the VTS limited to six inches and

22 less, are you looking at product up to six inches
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1 in diameter or fits into a six inch well?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: I believe we are

3 looking at up to six inches. Is that what was

4 provided to us? Up to and including six inches.

5 Yeah.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's on the original

7 list, I thought.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I, I would just note

10 that a few manufacturers are nodding their heads

11 yes in agreement. Okay. Keep going, Alison.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So is this

13 more -- is the benefits and burdens more clear?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: We covered so much

15 content when, in that presentation deck that I

16 think that -- I want to just simply note that

17 you're talking about the lower bound and now

18 you're going to talk about the upper bound --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: -- right? Okay. So

21 these, these two distinctive scenarios.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: So Alison, Mark

2 Handzel. So you've definitely clarified the

3 questions that we have.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

5 MR. HANDZEL: But you're also

6 throwing a ton of data at us again. So obviously

7 we need some time to talk about it.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And I think

9 that's why, you know, we actually have on the

10 agenda like a two hour lunch. So if you guys want

11 to just like look at data and think about it and

12 talk about what it, what the implications are or

13 whatever you want, you know. You can ask us

14 questions.

15 MR. HANDZEL: And the only problem

16 is that we don't have copies of the slides.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I don't

18 know if we can get that.

19 MR. HANDZEL: It's kind of hard to

20 process the data when you don't have all of it.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Can you e-mail those to

22 us during lunch?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: I can certainly e2 mail them.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Not to the

4 SharePoint. To our actual --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I will probably have

6 the list somewhere.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

8 EEI. Sorry.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we will get that

10 out to you guys. Okay. So, and also -- I'm not

11 sure you've seen payback period before. I put

12 this in here, too. It's pretty low for this

13 scenario, as would be expected. We're basically

14 recovering your costs that you paid in increased

15 price pretty quickly. This is all consumer.

16 Everything I'm talking about is consumer. Yes.

17 This is all consumers.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hey, Alison.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you have a key

21 with the slides on it?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you give it to

2 me real quick?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe you can just print

4 out a couple of them.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me see what I

6 can do.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, can you just --

8 can you say that the numbers of the key slides --

9 the detailed analysis --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: No.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: She is only up to

12 slide 18 right now, so --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: There's a lot.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So this is the

16 other scenario. The full cost recovery, and so in

17 -- what happens in this one is we use Dan's

18 conversion --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is there other

20 files?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you make it
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1 obvious to me what the file is?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: It's ASRAC meeting

3 slides, LCC shipments NIA.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. All right.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: ASRAC.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to run to

8 the copy center real quick and see what we can.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, don't worry.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: NIA.

11 MS. WIDDER: Brenda to the rescue.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So right. So the no14 cost recovery, everyone's purchasing off base case

15 scenario. In the full cost recovery scenario, we

16 take the conversion costs and we basically

17 distribute them to all shipments of pumps that

18 were redesigned. And so these point -- this is an

19 example. This is also out of date. It hasn't

20 changed that much. These points up here are what

21 people are paying who have to buy the redesigned

22 pumps.
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1 So this means the manufacturers are

2 fully recovering all their conversion costs by

3 passing it through the consumer. So this is

4 basically the worst case scenario for consumers;

5 whereas, the previous one is the best case. Yes.

6 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

7 What timeframe was that cost going to be --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: In the full cost

9 recovery is, is over the full analysis period,

10 which is 30 years. I think that Mike had said last

11 time -- so there's 11.8% discount rate. I believe

12 Navigant determined last time that it was

13 approximately a 10 or 11 year -- it essentially

14 amounted -- translated to 10 or 11 years. But

15 you're basically made whole over the 30 year

16 analysis period.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay.

18 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again. So

19 what you're -- what you're really saying is even

20 though the life expectancy of these pumps was

21 significantly lower than 30 years, we're going to

22 take 30 years to get our money back.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: The life expectancy

2 of, well

3 --

4 MR. BARBOUR: Isn't the life

5 expectancy cost --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: We're not saying how

7 fast it takes you to get your money back. What we

8 are modeling is simply -- and Chris'll show this

9 later -- that the industry net present value does

10 not change over the analysis period. So how you

11 got your costs back in that analysis period is, is

12 not necessarily relevant because this is basically

13 representing a point in time and just trying to

14 take that into account.

15 So we'll go over the manufacturer impact

16 analysis separately and I think that will clarify

17 some of these things about the impacts to

18 manufacturers and cost recovery and that kind of

19 thing. But this -- I do not --

20 MR. LAU: The two charts are meant to

21 bound the markups, right? The two scenarios are

22 meant to bound the markups. That's why you create
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1 a high and low start in potential pricing. You

2 could create -- we could shorten the recovery

3 period and have you raise your prices higher, but

4 I think at some point you'll look at those markets

5 and say, well, they're just not realistic.

6 MR. BARBOUR: I think we've already

7 said that based on what we were told in the past.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

9 MR. BARBOUR: That the markups that

10 we were told weren't realistic.

11 MR. LAU: Well, but then -- I

12 mean isn't the flat markup the reasonable lower

13 bound?

14 MR. BARBOUR: Right.

15 MR. LAU: You're not going to,

16 you're not going to drop your prices as a result

17 of the standard.

18 MR. BARBOUR: No.

19 MR. LAU: Right. So then we

20 have a lower bound, and the question is, well,

21 what's the upper bound.

22 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah, but what I'm
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1 commenting on was the 16% that we were told at the

2 last meeting.

3 MR. LAU: Sixteen percent.

4 MR. BARBOUR: It was just not a

5 number that I -- I don't believe from the pump

6 industry's perspective that we can, we can pass

7 that on to the consumer.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so I think --

9 we're trying to show two scenarios. One is that

10 you pass nothing on to the consumer and one is you

11 pass enough to recover your cost fully over the

12 analysis period. And it may be that the real

13 scenario is somewhere in between and you guys are

14 welcome to look at the results of both scenarios

15 and sort of, you know -- maybe what you are really

16 going to do is somewhere in the middle. And so

17 this is basically trying to bound those, those two

18 things, so you can determine what the impact would

19 be.

20 MR. LAU: I think the original

21 session was we just wait until we did the full MIA

22 presentation and then we can --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chris, we'll hear from

2 you a little bit later on. Jay Sivigny.

3 MR. SIVIGNY: I just want to make

4 sure I'm fully clear. Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

5 We've got full cost recovery. So you're pulling

6 Dan's and your analysis numbers --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

8 MR. SIVIGNY: All right. And you're

9 assigning that by product type and you, your

10 comment was over the analysis period. That, that

11 means what - - 30 years?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Thirty years.

13 MR. SIVIGNY: Thirty years.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: There's a discount

15 rate involved.

16 MR. SIVIGNY: Of?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- of 11.8% is the

18 WACC.

19 MR. SIVIGNY: And where does that

20 come from?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: It's the --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Stand up, Chris.
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1 MR. SIVIGNY: It's okay. I just

2 want to make sure --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yeah.

4 MR. SIVIGNY: -- I fully understand.

5 No problem.

6 MR. LAU: It makes sense. So

7 what we did is we took -- we look at SEC filings

8 from companies that are public, derived a discount

9 rate from those filings, and then we took those to

10 manufacturers and asked them to comment on it in

11 interviews. Got feedback on whether they should

12 be higher or lower. And then also at the end of

13 last meeting, I had to run out, but I think was

14 also some additional feedback about whether those

15 numbers, those financial metrics need to be

16 adjusted, one of which was the cost of capital.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

18 MR. HANDZEL: They did ask us. Mark

19 Handzel from Xylem. They did ask us in our

20 surveys last summer about each of our cost of

21 capitals.

22 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay. But when you
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1 say it's over the life of the analysis, it's 30

2 years?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: It's 30 years.

4 MR. SIVIGNY: So, so just to clarify

5 then, does that mean it's going to take us -- and

6 maybe I have it wrong -- is it going to take us 30

7 years to recover that, all that money?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so that's what

9 -- if - - in the webinar, Mike Rivest from

10 Navigant said he had done a translation that was

11 approximately 10 or 11 years to essentially -- as

12 related to the discount period and all that. I'm

13 not --

14 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm do not entirely

16 recall.

17 MR. LAU: You'd make most of it

18 up over this first ten years.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

20 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay.

21 MR. LAU: That this is sort of a

22 -- because of the discount rate kind of trails
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1 off.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

3 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay. So it's a --

4 it's a curve where you get most of it back in the

5 first ten years.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

7 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay. Thank you.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: But that, that's in the

10 upper bound.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. This is --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: It's the upper bound

13 scenario.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: This is the worst

15 impact to consumers. Right. And I really do want

16 to -- Chris will talk fully about the manufacturer

17 impact later, and I really do want to try to focus

18 this, strictly to impact on the consumers. And so

19 the relevance to manufacturers will be discussed

20 in another segment --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: It is certainly
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1 important, too.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: You're doing very well.

3 Keep going.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So this is the

5 average LCC savings. Again, we broke it out by

6 horsepower bin, just so you can see. You can see

7 that while almost everything is positive LCC

8 savings, there are a few small pumps in the ESCC,

9 ESFM that have negative average LCC savings. That

10 means those customers are paying more for

11 increased efficiency than they're saving in energy

12 costs.

13 This is a pretty expected result. A lot

14 of times the large equipment is really driving

15 those energy savings. You know, there's huge --

16 they're pulling huge power and the, the increased

17 cost isn't - - doesn't increase as fast for them

18 relatively. So the, so the people who purchase

19 large pumps might benefit more than the people who

20 purchase small pumps.

21 However, my understanding is that a lot

22 of people are purchasing both small and large
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1 pumps. So the impact to consumers themselves is

2 a, is a little bit mixed than this which is

3 looking at individual pump sizes.

4 So this is just -- you can see the

5 numbers in red are the negative LCC savings. You

6 can see they occur a few places across the board,

7 and you'll have these to look at also when they

8 get printed out. This is a comparison to what

9 you've seen before. Again, the top is change in

10 operating costs and the bottom is increased

11 purchase price. So it just helps show where

12 everything is coming from.

13 Again, you can see that the scales are

14 totally different across the sizes. It goes up to

15 1,000 for small, 3,000 for medium, and 10,000 for

16 large. And so you can see, like, on the large

17 pumps the operating cost savings are really

18 dwarfing the increase in equipment costs; whereas,

19 for small pumps that's always --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you restate what

21 the graph shows? From here it's hard to see.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So the, the top --
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1 the -- above the axis --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Axis. These are

4 changes in operating costs. So these are

5 operating cost savings

6 --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And then --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Across the lifetime

9 of a product, and the bottom is increase in

10 purchase price.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: So the consumers, you

13 know, for example, might be paying almost $500

14 more for a pump, but they may be saving almost

15 $1,500 over the lifetime of the pump, for example.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Steve Rosenstock.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

18 Again, I'll just say the typical or median

19 lifetime that's being shown in this graph is how

20 many years?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, so those go

22 back to, to, to these different -- so they range
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1 from 9 to 21 average lifetime.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Alison, it's Mark

3 Handzel. So I guess, I think Bob was trying to ask

4 the question and, and maybe we're just, we're

5 still beating around this, but at the last meeting

6 you heard -- everybody heard pretty soundly from

7 the manufacturers that we did not feel that we

8 were going to be able to raise our prices in

9 conjunction with, you know, with this efficiency

10 improvement that our customers are willing to

11 receive. So what are you basing the increases in

12 purchase price based on, knowing that information?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So knowing

14 that information is why we did the two bounds.

15 And the first results I showed you are the no-cost

16 recovery --

17 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Which is -- what

19 you're saying, we can't pass anything along.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: But you're also

22 saying, well, actually, the payback is too long
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1 for your other scenario, which is a completely

2 opposite message. So we're just trying to do the

3 two bounds. You may think that if you -- if you

4 think that you can't pass along those savings,

5 then the results -- the results for the consumers

6 will be closer to the no-cost recovery scenario.

7 If you think you can pass some results -- some

8 costs, but not all along, then, then we'll get

9 something closer to the full cost recovery

10 scenarios. So we're trying to provide a spectrum

11 where you can sort of think and use this for

12 negotiation. You know?

13 Like you can say, look -- in this case,

14 if you, if your argument is that we can't pass

15 anything along, then you can go to Max Tech for

16 consumer impacts. So these are just things that

17 you need to negotiate with each other once you,

18 once you start talking. Right?

19 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel from

20 Xylem. So just, you know, obviously, we -- we're

21 not saying we're not going to have price

22 increases, because obviously when the motor guys
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1 give us a price increase, we pass it on --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Our component

4 materials, you know, when bronze goes up or

5 stainless goes up or cast iron goes up, you know -

6 -

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So we will have price

9 increase, but what we're saying is we cannot pass

10 on a price increase directly related to

11 redesigning, the cost of redesigning the pumps to

12 gain higher efficiency.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So maybe -- let me chime

14 in here for a second. I think what DOE is trying

15 to say is -- and what we've tried to give you is

16 two bounds, right? One is going to be where

17 Alison describes as the best case for consumers,

18 the worst for manufacturers, and the other one's

19 going to be the worst case for consumers, best

20 case for manufacturers, in which case you get all

21 your costs back that you had to invest to meet any

22 potential standard level.
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1 But the reality is, it's somewhere in

2 the middle and DOE isn't able to know that. And

3 it may be different for you than it is for him,

4 than it is for him. We're not really sure. And

5 the market may dictate that. What this allows you

6 to do, though, is to analyze the results at both

7 ends. And this is where your negotiations take

8 over. Where exactly is it that you might want to

9 fall? And so what Alison's trying to do is

10 saying, here's where the bounds are and here is

11 how this translates through our analysis. In which

12 case -- how DOE does its analysis. And you guys

13 need to start talking about the middle ground.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Well we asked - we asked

15 Lucas for a get-out-of-jail free card in the last

16 -- in the last discussion, you know. So obviously

17 we don't discuss price.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And, and no, I don't

19 think we're asking you to discuss price. What

20 we're asking you to do is look at the bounds for

21 the impacts to consumers and discuss a level. Not

22 a price. A level. Because what -- if Alison says
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1 you can only pass through 50% of your costs,

2 you're going to see the analysis shift to

3 somewhere in that middle ground. And, and as far

4 as impacts to consumers.

5 So I'm not asking you to discuss exact

6 prices. What I'm asking -- what I think the ask,

7 is to start discussing the levels that, that you

8 might be able to consider based on the analysis.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Ashley and

10 not Bob Barbour.

11 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

12 I think our question was on the bound that is best

13 for the manufacturers, what was the percentage

14 change in pricing that was used on that analysis,

15 and we never got that answer.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --

17 MR. BARBOUR: That's the basic

18 question. I think Mark's asked it. I've asked

19 it. We're just trying to understand what you used

20 for that percentage

21 --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Right. So I
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1 mean, this is an example scenario. This is

2 slightly out of date, but basically what, you

3 know, as, as was said before, we took the

4 conversion costs that Dan just showed and we're

5 basically calculating -- in the LCC we calculate

6 what price increase there has to be for each pump

7 in order to basically equal. So then we run the

8 LCC model and make sure that the old price plus --

9 the new price minus the old price equal Dan's

10 conversion costs. So we basically calculate it

11 all. And this is one example. Like when you go up

12 to PER 70, you're at 1,600; whereas, you know, in

13 the base case you're at 1,200. So there's, you

14 know, a different increase calculated for each

15 level. And we -- so we took Dan's conversion

16 costs. We did a 30 year analysis period, 100%

17 cost recovery, 11.8% discount rate. And we

18 plugged those numbers in and back calculated these

19 prices that result in that full cost recovery.

20 MR. BARBOUR: So you don't have

21 actual percentages that you can give us.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: I could post process
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1 those percentages for you.

2 MR. LAU: I think it would be

3 easier for me to do that.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. We can get

5 that to you. Yeah.

6 MR. LAU: I'll add a slide that

7 shows the --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hm.

9 MR. LAU: The base case markup,

10 the standard --

11 MR. BARBOUR: It just gives us a

12 benchmark to --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. Yeah. It's --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

16 What would happen if the manufacturers wanted to

17 recover their costs at a faster rate because of

18 their economic conditions?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. Then, you

20 know, we would model probably -- and it would be

21 worse for consumers, right?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So again, we're

2 getting two messages. One is that we can't

3 recover any costs and one is 30 years is too long.

4 Right? Which are completely opposite messages.

5 If they wanted to recover in a shorter amount of

6 time, you would basically be increasing, you know

7 -- maybe instead of being here, this point would

8 end up here. Or something like that, right? It's

9 going to look worse for the consumer.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think this is where

11 you guys need to talk about things. We can

12 definitely get you percentages in terms of -- but,

13 Steve, I don't think it's realistic to say full

14 cost recovery, 50% faster. Right? I mean we're

15 hearing in the room that we can't even potentially

16 fully recover costs.

17 Now it may be that we should consider

18 something like 50% recovery, 50% faster. We can

19 run these scenarios, but we need you guys to think

20 about what those scenarios would be. And we're

21 not asking you about specific pricing, but we are

22 asking you about a specific scenario we can model
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1 to get you results you may need to help inform

2 your discussions about levels.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Delaney.

4 MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney from

5 Regal. Just so I understand this, to make sure

6 we're all on the same page, when we talk about --

7 since we got into this discussion from the very

8 beginning, we have multi-stages, right, of

9 obviously pump, pump plus motor, pump plus motor

10 plus control. And all these scenarios, it is,

11 it's simply up to the manufacturer? They could,

12 could do the pump only. Or is this just pump only

13 discussion --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: This is just pump

15 only.

16 MR. DELANEY: Good. Just want to

17 make sure we all understood that.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. The design

19 options are pump only, so we are only modeling

20 pump only --

21 MR. DELANEY: Okay.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: In all of these
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1 scenarios -- Yes.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT.

4 So the 30 years is too long comment, I think is

5 the result of confusion. You're saying you do a

6 30 year analysis period, which I guess is a

7 standard by which you do your calculations. And I

8 guess what some of us don't understand is how does

9 that relate to the equipment lifetimes that you

10 have on the other table? Right?

11 So does that mean, for example, if an

12 equipment lifetime was, let's say, 15 years, that

13 you would actually put in two purchases of the

14 equipment in that 30 year analysis period?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So in the LCC, we

16 assume that all purchases take place in a single

17 year. It's a, it's a simplification. So, you

18 know, however -- it's basically assuming everyone

19 purchases their pump in 2019 and then it runs for

20 20 years or it runs for whatever. In the NIA and

21 the shipments model, which we still haven't gotten

22 to, we are modeling the whole population over all
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1 the shipments in a 30 year period.

2 So you have a rolling population of

3 pumps. Like if you purchased your pump in 2019 and

4 it lasts for 20 years, or you purchased your pump

5 in 2035 and it lasts for 20 years, and so it's

6 like this rolling scenario. So these are two

7 different things. So for the LCC, this is

8 assuming all purchases are in a single year.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: So real simple question.

10 So if I bought a pump in year one and calculating

11 energy savings, I calculate energy savings for

12 that pump for 30 years?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: No, for the lifetime

14 of that pump.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: The lifetime of the

16 pump.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. So I get it. I

19 think that's where some of the confusion is, is --

20 so the conversation I hear is, well, pumps don't

21 last 30 years, why are they doing a 30 year

22 analysis? So I, I think the explanation is doing
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1 a purchase of a pump, it'll last the lifetime that

2 you had on the previous table, which might be 11

3 years, 20 years or whatever, and that's the, the

4 duration of the product lifetime, but you're doing

5 an analysis over 30 years so you may have multiple

6 purchases --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so --

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- inside of that 30

9 years?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I

11 apologize. It's a little confusing, right. So

12 the 30 years, I guess, is not really applicable to

13 the LCC. It's applicable to the NIA and the MIA.

14 And so the manufacturer impact analysis that Chris

15 is going to go over will talk about making

16 manufacturers whole over the 30 year analysis

17 period.

18 So 30 years of the MIA means you're --

19 the industry net present value change will be

20 zero. So, you know, he'll get into that in a lot

21 more detail. So it was a little bit confusing to

22 say that the analysis period is 30 years. It's
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1 not relevant to the LCC. It's only relevant to

2 how we calculated the --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman has a

4 supplemental comment.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest

6 Power Council. Yeah. The analysis we're talking

7 about now is just for the consumer, and that's the

8 one pump purchase for one pump life. The pricing

9 that went into that was based on manufacturers

10 recovering their cost over a 30 year period at an

11 11 .8% discount rate, that's the 30 years, not the

12 lifecycle cost.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Lifecycle cost is just

15 for one -- a consumer buying a pump and when it

16 dies, it dies. That's it. But the price they had

17 to pay was based on your recovery over 30 years,

18 or not in the other scenario where you got nothing

19 recovered.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Both comments.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: So for the 30 years

22 that we're going to discuss further down the road
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1 here, the reason we, we picked 30 years, is

2 because if you look over the whole portfolio of

3 the standards program, transformers has the

4 longest life of roughly 30 years. So 30 years is

5 just an artifact of being able to compare rules

6 against each other. So for, for a product that

7 lasts only five years, in that 30 year horizon,

8 you will purchase it six times --

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Six times.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: For yours, it's one-and11 a- half times, whatever the numbers.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So don't get hung up

13 on the 30 so much. It's just an artifact of --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That was John Cymbalsky.

15 So Joanna Mauer.

16 MS. MAUER: Just a quick question,

17 Alison. It looks like for the end suction

18 categories, that the incremental equipment cost is

19 significantly higher for the 1800 compared to

20 3600. Do you know why that is?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So I do not know.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Stand up, Dan.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: So, yes, the reason

2 for that is because we're -- end suction 1800, a

3 larger horsepower at 1800 compared to -- so a

4 hundred horsepower at 1800 is a physically larger

5 size than a hundred horsepower pump at 3600, which

6 is a smaller pump. So larger pump percentage cost

7 increase is a larger percentage overall. So that

8 where -- that's where that should come from.

9 MS. MAUER: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So I thought we -- we're

11 ready to move on now.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I'll just

13 continue showing a couple more of results from the

14 full cost recovery scenario. You can see as

15 compared to the no- cost recovery scenario that

16 there are a lot more consumers that lose in this

17 scenario, so they pay more for the more efficient

18 pump than they save over its lifetime in energy

19 costs.

20 So that's why, you know, this is worst

21 case for the consumer. The other one is, is, is

22 best case. So you can see that, you know, in some
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1 of these areas, I've highlighted in red here a few

2 of the places where the percentage of losers

3 exceeds the percentage of winners just for some

4 perspective on looking at that, but -- and

5 obviously as compared to the other scenario, this

6 looks worse for consumers.

7 But, but overall across most of these

8 equipment classes, there's still more consumers

9 benefitting than there are being burdened. And

10 this is payback period for this scenario.

11 You can see there is -- I also

12 highlighted in red some of the high ones, above 20

13 years. So that's generally going to be above --

14 take longer than the lifetime of the product to

15 pay back. So in this scenario there are some,

16 some levels that maybe aren't great for consumers.

17 So that's basically all the LCC results.

18 And so, I think hopefully when you get those

19 printed out, it'll -- you know, you can look at

20 those numbers in a little more detail and think

21 about what those mean and what's in the middle,

22 etc.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, is there anything

2 else you wish to cover in this segment? Are there

3 any specific questions?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: In the LCC segment?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: I have nothing else

7 in the LCC segment.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're about to

9 move on. We're going to go a little bit longer

10 and hope those photocopies show up.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can just drop them off

12 if you want to go to lunch.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, how much -- what's

14 the next segment?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So we still have

16 shipments and NIA left, which is approximately 20

17 slides, and we've never gone over it before. So

18 it may not be fantastic --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I think we should

20 go to lunch.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: -- to start right

22 now.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And you were

2 suggesting that we allow a longer period for

3 lunch, but we -- how should we do this so they can

4 get their hands on the slides?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can send them out.

6 You have Internet, right? So we can send them out

7 to e- mails right now if anyone, for anyone that

8 has access to e-mail.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: I don't think we need a

10 longer lunch.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't think we need

12 it?

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: We've covered all the --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: I think an hour's --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: An hour would be

17 sufficient?

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: You guys are good.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a lot of heads

20 nodding yes. Okay, Charlie. Thank you. So it's

21 now 12:10. Let's take an hour for lunch, which

22 means we'll resume at 1:10 p.m. I have a reminder
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1 to wear your badge inside the building, and if you

2 go to the big cafeteria, you'll probably need a

3 photo I.D. to get back through the security

4 portal. So we'll see you back here at 1:10 p.m.

5 We've covered a lot of ground. This room will be

6 secured. You can leave your stuff.

7 (SESSION BREAK)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Welcome back. I hope

9 you had a nice lunch. I wanted to -- it's

10 something I neglected this morning, was to welcome

11 those that are joining us via the web. The

12 Department of Energy wants very much to make these

13 meetings successful to those listening in on the

14 web. I also wanted to provide an opportunity for

15 two folks here today that have joined us for the

16 first time to do a very brief introduction since

17 they're sitting in for other members. And we'll

18 start with Brian. Just say hello and give us a

19 30, 60 second --

20 MR. HENRY : About 10 or 20.

21 No, I'm Brian Henry and I'm with Patterson Pump

22 Company. I've been with the company for 25 years
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1 now. I handle global marketing for the company.

2 Other than that, degree in education. So I'm

3 putting that to good use at this point. I'm not

4 so sure. But I just have enjoyed listening this

5 morning and being a part of it.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Glad you

7 could join us. And Jay, you've been here a few

8 times, but give us a 30 second bio.

9 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve

10 Corporation of Taneytown, Maryland. So I've been

11 down here pretty regularly with the kids. I've

12 been with Flowserve 17 years, degreed mechanical

13 engineer. Currently working in global product

14 management and marketing.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Okay. Alison.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Thanks. Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: We have -- it seems

18 like we have a comment or question right here at

19 the outset. Mark Handzel. And we should note for

20 the record that, thanks to Brenda Edwards.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. Thank you, Brenda.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: We -- and actually
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1 getting this in motion, we had a rather complete

2 Power Point packet printed off as we went to

3 lunch, and that preps the genesis of Mark's

4 comment.

5 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel from

6 Xylem. So, you know, the pump caucus spent some

7 time looking through the slides and just reviewing

8 the stuff that we've covered this morning. And,

9 you know, I think, you know, what we would like to

10 say is that we're all going to -- we all feel

11 strongly that we have to take a harder look at

12 this, passing on the cost increase potential, and

13 so we're going to be studying that further. John,

14 I'll just say one of our concerns is that we don't

15 know how we can openly talk about it because of

16 strategic concerns and price concerns.

17 So it, it's a difficult subject for us

18 to be able to come back in here say, yeah, we're

19 going to do this. Because it, it can be taken the

20 wrong way. So -- but we, we think we may be able

21 to pass on some of those costs, so, but we all are

22 going to need a bit more study of exactly what's
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1 going on.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just curious if --

4 since you guys have done this multiple times

5 before, is there a method that you've used to

6 address this issue in terms of the pricing

7 discussions and avoiding legal, legal issues in

8 terms of price collusion and that kind of thing?

9 And is there any information relative to the

10 ability to extract some of the cost savings or

11 increased price, prices due to more energy

12 efficient equipment and similar standards that

13 have been ever created in the past? Because we're

14 kind of trying to predict the future of something

15 that we really have no relevant basis to make a

16 decision on. So looking at other, other industries

17 that have gone through the same kind of process,

18 is there something there that we could learn from?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John Cymbalsky,

20 DOE. So we do this for every rule. This is not a

21 unique situation whatsoever. We're not -- in what

22 we're doing in our analysis with the pass-through
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1 of the cost that industry either absorbs or they

2 pass on, we're not -- we're not asking you guys to

3 get in a room and collude on prices so that -

4 You know, it's just a simple assumption

5 on our part when, you know, the team goes out and

6 interviews you guys to understand what your

7 manufacturing process is, then they take the whole

8 of your industry and try to aggregate it so that

9 nobody's, you know, personal business information

10 is compromised. But we basically have a range of,

11 of, you know, do you get to pass it on and that's

12 you recover everything.

13 So that's worst case scenario for the

14 consumer. Or you guys absorb it or some

15 combination of what happens --

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Those are the bounds.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. That's the

18 bounds. So when we show the analysis results, we

19 show the bounds in the MIA, and you're going to

20 see that later on this afternoon. You know, your

21 industry either, you know, can go really far south

22 or it can, you know, retain its profit margins.
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1 So we're going to go through all of that. You

2 know, we make the assumptions that -- can you

3 maintain your profit margin or do you lose some

4 profit margin and all that kind of thing. So --

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I

6 think the reality from experience is in general,

7 when something becomes required by regulation, the

8 costs are not passed through to the extent that

9 many industries believe they could and should be.

10 And that's because if you have a dozen

11 manufacturers and one of them already has a

12 compliant product in the market and their business

13 is operating fine around that, they don't have to

14 make any investment and their price is already set

15 competitively. So the others who don't then have

16 to go out and make an investment to have the

17 product, but they can't charge that much more

18 because one of their competitors is already there.

19 So you, you know, you can't talk explicitly among

20 yourself about these things. But, but in general,

21 that's the way it's going to work for you.

22 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I would
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1 just add that I think this is a -- the situation

2 is different in some ways from most other products

3 in that there's no incremental manufacturing

4 production cost. You know, when we look at

5 something like a refrigerator or air conditioner,

6 you get to higher efficiency levels by, you know,

7 adding materials --

8 MR. HANDZEL: Adding more costs. Right.

9 MS. MAUER: Yeah, adding more cost.

10 MR. HANDZEL: More efficient motor, more

11 insulation.

12 MS. MAUER: And that the basis --

13 exactly. And that's the basis of the cost to the

14 consumer. So I think this is somewhat of a

15 different scenario where we have to think about --

16 I think typically conversion costs aren't

17 incorporated in the manufacturing production cost

18 as these, the actual cost of the product; whereas,

19 this is a little bit of a different, a different

20 case.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again.

22 Interestingly for us, the normal situation we see
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1 is the industry we're working with will come back

2 and say, oh, this is going to result in huge costs

3 for consumers and it's not going to be cost

4 effective.

5 Well, to my astonishment, you know, you

6 guys have said, well, it's going to result in huge

7 cost for us all right, but, you know, we're not

8 sure competition is going to allow us to recover

9 those costs. That's, that's different than what

10 we normally hear.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

12 MR. CASE: May I make a comment? This

13 is Greg Case.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Greg, do.

15 MR. CASE: It, it seems to me that, that

16 one result is to highly disadvantage U.S.

17 manufacturing and highly advantage offshore

18 manufacturing that's already had to comply with

19 something like this offshore.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Yeah,

21 Greg. I would agree. I made the point some are

22 already there. And on account of international
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1 requirements, it may be that offshore

2 manufacturers or those selling the large amount of

3 product into other markets are the ones that are

4 already there.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Greg.

6 Steve.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

8 And again, as a first time standard for these

9 products, there is kind of a blank slate kind of

10 on all sides. We know all the products out there,

11 but it's a matter of, you know, now there's some

12 European standards and a U.S. standard, and also

13 now there's going to be some, you know, test

14 procedures.

15 You're going to, you know, if they're

16 the same as what you might be doing in Europe,

17 that would might lower your incremental costs, but

18 if there's, if there's differences, then there

19 might be some other costs.

20 So again, as a first time standard,

21 there's always some -- there's more unknowns, I

22 would say, with trying to set this one versus
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1 other standards. And, you know, the -- and just

2 possibly more, possibly more unknown costs just

3 because of the fact with -- if different product

4 lines didn't have to meet a standard, now they do.

5 So it's all -- there's still a lot of chicken and

6 egg going on as we go through this.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again. I

8 think in pursuing our negotiation, we need to take

9 all of these factors into consideration. And we

10 will.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would echo that. This

12 is John from DOE. So, you know, I've had a few

13 offline conversations and we know we've got the EU

14 standard out there that people are very aware of.

15 You've got what Steve just mentioned, first time

16 standards. So I think that's right. These are

17 the big factors that the negotiators should have

18 in their, in the front of their mind, not the back

19 of their mind, I think.

20 And in my mind, that makes things a lot

21 easier than what we've had on some other products

22 like transformers. We've had standards for those
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1 and I think the issues in my mind were a lot more

2 complicated than what I've heard so far. Not to

3 say that this isn't hard, but I think there's a

4 few factors that were just raised around the table

5 that actually can make our negotiations, our

6 negotiations a bit easier and more straightforward

7 to kind of coalesce around. But that, that's up

8 to everyone here at the table to decide if that's

9 the right, right path forward.

10 MR. HANDZEL: I think -- Mark Handzel

11 from Xylem. Obviously, you know, as we pointed

12 out several times and we've kind of seen, you

13 know, the best and worst case, somewhere in

14 between there is, is kind of the scenario. And I

15 think, you know, we feel that it is somewhere in

16 between there. A lot of uncertainty for us to pin

17 it down where, but I think that's part of what

18 your point is, is that there typically, you don't

19 know exactly where.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right.

21 MR. HANDZEL: So, but we do think

22 instead of being all the way to the no cost pass
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1 through, it's somewhere in between.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And, and then

3 just to put in every - again, in front of

4 everybody's minds that if, if we cannot come to a

5 negotiated agreement here, it's, it's the DOE

6 point. And so that's the kind of the, the

7 elephant in the room. I know I put on a little

8 weight, but -- you know, but seriously, I think --

9 MR. HANDZEL: And John, I just was to

10 reiterate what I said to you earlier, that, that

11 as a caucus the pump manufacturers are -- you

12 know, this is not a over, you know, overarching

13 problem for us. We, we still agree with what's

14 being done here and we want to support it and, you

15 know, so we are fully committed to working through

16 the process.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Great. And I think that

18 sets the stage well for the next part of this

19 working group's business to, to get to the

20 negotiations, come to a good place for everybody.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So we're going to

22 proceed. Alison is sitting there ready to go with
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1 shipments analysis, which is slide 27 in the

2 packet, which we fortunately now have in front of

3 us.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. And I'll preface

5 this, just adding on to that conversation, that

6 there'll be a lot of inputs in here that we can

7 discuss as well, you know, in the end.

8 Just to give you a preview, national net

9 present value is basically positive for everything

10 across the board. So, you know, I just want to

11 state that up front so you'll, you can think of

12 this in other terms. Like these are pieces of

13 data that we're providing to help you with the

14 negotiation, but there are all these other factors

15 that maybe will, you know, dwarf what we're

16 presenting here. So just to put that into

17 perspective.

18 MR. HANDZEL: So this is the first time

19 we've seen this slide --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, you have never seen

21 this stuff before. This is all new.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Thank you.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So, yeah, this is just,

2 again, showing the over, overview. Shipments

3 analysis feeds kind of early into the national

4 impact analysis and the manufacturer impact

5 analysis, which is what you'll hear about next.

6 So basically for the national impact analysis and

7 manufacturing impact analysis, as we discussed

8 before, there's a 30 year analysis period. And so

9 we need to finish the shipments model to project

10 shipments across those, that 30 year analysis

11 period. I'm basically going to skip this.

12 So to start the shipments model, we need

13 some data for a historic period. For this rule

14 making, we have data from 2012 provided by HI

15 through NEMA BIS, that this is the table in the

16 upper right hand corner, the total industry

17 estimate for each of these equipment categories.

18 So this came from HI. It is difficult

19 to use existing sources of market data, as we've

20 discussed previously, because they're not relevant

21 specifically to the pumps in the rule making and

22 it's pretty hard to try to estimate percentages.
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1 So this is what we're starting with right now.

2 The thing I did want to note on this is

3 that the historical census data shows that the

4 quantity of imported centrifugal, non-submersible

5 pumps ranged from 9 million to 16 million per year

6 from 2000 to 2010. And our consultant estimated a

7 large fraction of those would've been small end

8 suction, close- coupled, and in-line pumps. A lot

9 of those might be under one horsepower, but

10 presumably not all of them would be.

11 And so I just wanted to sort of check

12 whether you think that this 420,000 number

13 provided through the HI NEMA survey really

14 adequately captures all the imports that are

15 coming into this market, because it seems like

16 there's a substantial number -- we don't know if

17 they're clean water pumps in scope or not, but

18 there's a big pool that is, is potentially not

19 accounted for here. So I just wanted to see if

20 anybody had feedback on that topic.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

22 So, Alison, obviously this has been a, a huge
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1 quandary for all of us from day one and, and

2 obviously, you know, HI did what we felt was the

3 most thorough survey we could possibly do in terms

4 of collecting that data.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

6 MR. HANDZEL: You know, in, you know, I

7 think everyone realizes that the entire pump

8 industry are not members of Hydraulic Institute.

9 So, you know, we know that there's a percentage

10 outside of what's in our survey. I don't think we

11 have an exact percentage to even tell you what

12 percentage we thought that was. Okay? I mean

13 clearly the largest pump manufacturers in North

14 America are in HI.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And so -- and I

16 think it was stated that these are supposed to

17 account for imports by those manufacturers, but I

18 think maybe it doesn't account for imports by

19 companies that are only importing potentially.

20 So I just -- the reason this might

21 potentially matter -- correct me if I'm wrong,

22 guys -- I don't think we typically calculate
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1 conversion costs for manufacturers outside the US.

2 We only care about -- is that right?

3 MR. HANDZEL: Conversion costs --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.

5 MR. LAU: Sorry. Chris Lua for

6 Navigant. We, we do conversion costs -- we have to

7 do conversion costs for the industry so that it

8 matches up with the shipments for the industry.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: So it does include

10 imports. Okay. So, but, so if this was higher,

11 both the energy savings -- basically everything

12 would be shifted higher. So we -- we don't need

13 to have an answer now. I'm going to go through it

14 with the data we have. I just wanted to put it

15 out there that potentially we're, we're missing

16 some fraction of imports that, that could be

17 contributing to energy savings for this rule. So

18 it's plausible we are counting, undercounting

19 energy savings right now.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Alison, Steve

21 Rosenstock, EEI. Just, you know, just thinking

22 about -- I don't have the algorithm here from
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1 NEMA, but just, just as a possible bounding range,

2 what's, what's the number for, I'll say the large

3 motors, one to five hundred horsepower motors per

4 year?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I do not know off the top

6 of my head.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm just kind of

8 curious, you know, just kind of ranges that we're

9 talking about pumps with electric motors. If the

10 number of motors is, let's say one million a year,

11 then that might, consider that maybe as some sort

12 of upper bound, maybe. Again --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I think we have

14 an upper bound. It's about getting it down to the

15 scope at hand.

16 MR. STARR: It's about what?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Reducing the, the upper

18 bound estimates to the -- to what we're trying to

19 set standards for in this rule making. So I don't

20 -- we don't necessarily need to answer this

21 question --

22 MS. MAUER: I think DOE estimated for
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1 the recent motor rules about seven million per

2 year. Something in that range.

3 MR. HANDZEL: That's 1 to 500 hundred

4 horsepower?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Within the scope of that,

7 within the scope for that expanded role.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Because they add

9 the

10 --

11 MR. HANDZEL: To, yeah. Right. It's

12 almost everything.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Seven million a year?

14 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, somewhere in that

15 range.

16 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna again. I was

17 -- do any of the manufacturers have a rough sense

18 of percentage of unit shipments that are below one

19 horsepower? Is that a very significant fraction

20 of the market?

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

22 I'll just say that for, for our products, we have
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1 the majority of our products are in scope. So

2 there --

3 MS. MAUER: Okay.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So we don't have a

5 lot out of scope, you know, other than when you

6 get in --

7 MS. MAUER: Miles --

8 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So I mean -- and

9 this is clean water, one to two hundred horsepower

10 in the pump categories that we've defined. So

11 obviously if you go into other pump designs, if

12 you broaden the horsepower range, you know, all of

13 that starts to change significance. Okay? But

14 we've never -- I don't, I don't have the data at

15 my fingertips that looked at our entire pump

16 population.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

18 MR. STARR: So, so I was looking at the

19 nine million dollar shipments and I thought --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Units.

21 MR. STARR: Units, sorry. When Dan

22 Weintraub with Navigant did the other thing, I
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1 thought the scaling factor was about half with the

2 categories of the pumps we looked at. HI's data

3 covered about half. So that's what's in scope.

4 So if you scale it similarly, that means that

5 there's probably 900,000 that are in scope here,

6 or 800,000.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is a different

8 rate. This 9 to 16 million could include all sorts

9 of non- clean-water pumps. The problem is --

10 MR. HANDZEL: Every possible pump,

11 right?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so the census

13 disaggregates US manufacturing into pretty small

14 bins, but for imports it just says centrifugal

15 submersible and centrifugal non-submersible. So

16 it's just like this huge bin of pumps that -- we

17 had a consultant that gave us an estimate of what

18 he thought might be in scope. It's not included

19 here because we are using the HI numbers right

20 now.

21 So, again, I don't necessarily want to

22 derail this conversation on this. I just wanted
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1 to throw it out there. And if someone, you know,

2 wants to provide feedback at a later date, we can.

3 The only thing it would do is just basically

4 increase the magnitude of everything you're seeing

5 here.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve has a comment.

7 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson. How do

8 you define an import? Is it -- is it a product

9 that's brought in, certain components are brought

10 in outside the United States and they're assembled

11 in the US, and then impellers are trimmed when

12 they're modified? What's, what's the definition?

13 MR. HANDZEL: A fully assembled pump in

14 a box ready to be sold.

15 MR. THOMPSON: So that's the problem

16 with --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean right. The

18 census doesn't define it. I would interpret it as

19 the latter, but we don't have good -- yeah. So

20 I'm going to move on from this, but I just wanted

21 to, to throw that out there.

22 So basically we're starting with the
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1 base total of 420,000 shipments in 2012. So I

2 wanted -- I'm going to first go through an

3 approach that I didn't use just to present it,

4 because this is what the motors used.

5 So the medium electric motors rule used

6 a shipments model driven by private fixed

7 investments in selected equipment. And you can

8 see on this right- hand side that they got their -

9 - their shipments index matched this private fixed

10 investment index quite well. And so they used

11 AEO's projection of, of real investment to -- to

12 predict motor shipments out in the future.

13 So we tried to do this for pumps because

14 we figured it was reasonable to do something

15 similar to motors. We could not obtain a fit as

16 good as for the motors rule, particularly when we

17 selected equipment that seemed appropriate to the

18 scope. And in fact, the best fit was with private

19 fixed investment in residential equipment.

20 So that led us to believe that the

21 historical census data we have, which we were just

22 using for a trend, not for actual shipments
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1 numbers, is, is, is not really representative of

2 commercial and industrial pumps because it, it

3 seems to trend better with residential investment

4 than with commercial investment.

5 So I ran this scenario anyway, but we're

6 thinking it's maybe not appropriate because it

7 seems like that historical index just isn't what

8 we want to use. So this, this is what we did.

9 We, we found a relationship. We projected it

10 forward based on AEO private fixed investment and

11 this is the result. It seemed -- you know, you go

12 from 420 -- 420,000 shipments in 2012 and almost

13 triple it by the end of the analysis period, which

14 seemed pretty steep for a product that is, is very

15 mature.

16 So I'm currently not using this

17 shipments projection, but I just wanted to present

18 it as one alternative that we checked because it

19 is consistent with the motors approach, and then

20 I'm going to show what I'm actually using right

21 now and we can have a conversation about what

22 seems most appropriate.
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1 So because we decided the historical

2 data -- so the historical data I have is all

3 census based. I've never received any HI's

4 bookings data, so I can't look at that. So

5 basically if, if we think that this historical

6 data doesn't match up properly with the scope, we

7 have no way of verifying that our model fits

8 historically.

9 So what I did right now is basically

10 just ignored it. This is what was done in the

11 small electric motors rule a while ago. So we're

12 taking the current shipments and projecting them

13 forward with various AEO trends.

14 So for commercial, shipments to the

15 commercial sector, we're using AEO projections for

16 commercial floor space. For the industrial

17 sector, we're using value of manufacturing

18 shipments. Agricultural sector, we're using value

19 of agriculture, mining, and construction

20 shipments. And for the municipal sector, we're

21 using projections of population.

22 So these -- this is just -- these are
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1 the same sector weights you've seen before that

2 distributes the shipments into them. And then we

3 take each of these four different trends and

4 project those forward from 2019 -- from today out

5 to the end of the analysis period. So this top

6 line is the total shipments when you add up

7 commercial, industrial, agricultural, and

8 municipal. And in this one we go from 420,000 in

9 2012 to approximately 700,000 in 2048. So it's a

10 much, much less of a -- less steep increase in

11 shipments than what the, the model showed that we

12 decided not to use.

13 So this one seemed a little more

14 reasonable to us and seemed to be using AEO

15 projections that maybe seem relevant, but I'm

16 certainly happy to hear any comments on what we're

17 doing with this model.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

20 If you go back to slide 32, the historical, is

21 that -- again, was that, is that based on motors

22 data --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: No, the historical is

2 based on pumps census, census data for pumps, but

3 we just used it as a trend.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: With the HI based data

6 for the year 2012, because the -- we've been told

7 that the census data isn't -- what we were using

8 wasn't really very good. So we're just using it

9 for a trend instead of for actual numbers.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thanks. Steve.

11 Because it - again, if this trend is kind of, you

12 know, it looks like a flat to declining trend over

13 that ten year period.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And then it's

15 shooting up. Right. So.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's shooting up. And

17 yours is, yours is increasing slowly, and I guess

18 on your slide, by going back to 34, which is what

19 you're using, your -- the biggest jump seems to be

20 in the industrial sector.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hm.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It looks like that's,
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1 that's kind of the --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- the sector that's

4 driving it the most. And again, I, I'm not as

5 familiar with the industrial sector. I know it's

6 been increasing lately, but --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. And so that's why,

8 you know, we try to use these published trends

9 from AEO and sort of let them do these

10 projections, and we're just trying to tie the

11 shipments to it rather than, hopefully, not to get

12 into those details.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay.

14 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

15 Just out of curiosity on your alternate approach.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

17 MR. SIVIGNY: What's that compound

18 annual growth rate? Do you have that?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, I have not calculated

20 that.

21 MR. SIVIGNY: Rough estimate? It would

22 just be a good thumb sketch to --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Steve's on it.

2 MR. SIVIGNY: When you get your

3 calculation

4 --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hold on. Hold on.

6 It's about 300,000 over for the year.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

9 ITT. So to understand the graph here -- so you've

10 got several different lines there for different

11 segments of the market?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: At the bottom.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: And then the top -- the

16 line at the top is some kind of an aggregate?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it's the sum of, sum

18 of each of the sectors.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: And it's -- how did you

20 -- did you equally weight the segments?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So this -- the segments -

22 - this is the weighting for the segments.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: So that's the weighting

2 there.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: It's the same as we used

4 in the LCC --

5 MR. HANDZEL: So starting here you just

6 maintained that, right?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So we -- the changes over

8 time is the result of each sectors' projections.

9 So because industrial grows --

10 MR. HANDZEL: These are all -

11 MS. WILLIAMS: -- more steeply -

12 MR. HANDZEL: -- more on square

13 footage and -- okay.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So it -- that,

15 that's only -- yes. This is for 2012 and then it

16 sort of organically changes.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So it's about a 300,000

18 unit increase over about 40 years. So that's

19 about 7,500 a year, so it's - well, the first year

20 is 1.87%. Over 30 years, it's probably, compound

21 probably about 1.5% per year? Again, I'm just

22 roughing it). I just got the first year at about
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1 1.8%.

2 MR. SIVIGNY: We are just trying to get

3 a general idea.

4 MR. HANDZEL: And Alison, you and Mark

5 handled the value as per feedback?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

7 MR. HANDZEL: We have a hard time

8 projecting three to five years and you're going

9 out this far, so I was just like, sure.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, that's why

11 I'm like --

12 MR. HANDZEL: You know, I mean let's

13 keep going. I don't think we can give you any

14 feedback that says no.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Right. And that's

16 why I'm -- like even in the -- as Steve pointed

17 out, you know, the last ten years are almost flat,

18 and then if you use the motors approach, it goes

19 up really steeply. And that's why it didn't

20 really seem that appropriate.

21 So we're going with something lower.

22 But -- so this is also something that, you know,
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1 if you think about it later tonight or whenever

2 and have input on it, we can discuss it. But, so,

3 so all the results we're showing right now are

4 based on this alternate scenario.

5 So then the equipment -- so this

6 projection that -- we're doing all the shipments

7 of all the equipment classes together, and then to

8 disaggregate them, we're using the 2012 shipments

9 from HI to disaggregate them and that -- those

10 fractions remain constant over time. So we're not

11 showing an increase in any classes compared to any

12 other classes.

13 So that is also an assumption that could

14 be changed. And we did the same thing to

15 disaggregate into speeds. We just used the 2012

16 data to do that and that's also constant over

17 time. So those, those are some assumptions that,

18 again, we can, we can get feedback on and alter

19 those.

20 And, and then the, the last main thing

21 to talk about is standards impacts on shipments.

22 So increased pump prices could affect the
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1 repair/replace decision and potentially decrease

2 shipments. We don't have any data to

3 quantitatively estimate that, so right now we are

4 using the same shipments in the base case as in

5 the standards case, basically saying people are

6 going to buy pumps no matter what because they

7 need them.

8 So that is something you are also

9 welcome to comment on. This is, this is something

10 where, you know, the data -- obviously it's hard

11 to get data on this and determine what that, that

12 scenario really is.

13 So this is just the results of the

14 shipments model, the same as what, as what was on

15 the figure. So in 2019 -- so 2012 was 420,000

16 shipments and in 2019 it's up at almost 490, and

17 by 2048, it's around 700. And this also shows the

18 breakdown by the groups of equipment costs. Okay.

19 So that is all that I had on the shipments. Does

20 anybody have any questions?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: There were several

22 specific questions in there. I presume that as
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1 we're going through, no one felt like they could

2 answer them. Mark gave an overview comment, but I

3 --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so any -- on those

5 ones, if anyone has comment, you know, when they

6 review the slides tonight or tomorrow, whenever,

7 it's -- feel free to pass those along to us. This

8 is another instance where, you know, any of the

9 changes, you know, if -- if you decided that the

10 motors approach was real and the one I'm using

11 wasn't, then that would have a huge impact on

12 results because it would, you know, be increasing

13 the shipments much more rapidly. So that would be

14 a big change.

15 Some of these, you know, the breakdown

16 by equipment class would have some minor changes

17 in distributing things. So there's, you know, the

18 impact of the data we're asking for is varied.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Then with no additional

20 comment, let's move on.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the national

22 impact analysis -- the analysis period we're using
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1 for this is 2019 to 2048. We're going to estimate

2 national energy savings from the new energy

3 conservation standards and the national net

4 present values. So this is still a consumer5 focused analysis, but instead of looking at

6 impacts to individual consumers, it aggregates

7 those impacts to the nation as a whole. So in

8 general, we're taking the unit lifetime energy

9 savings multiplied by projected shipments and

10 accumulating this over 30 years.

11 And then for the NPV we're looking at

12 difference each year between energy bill savings

13 and increased equipment expenditures. These are

14 just some diagrams to, to emphasize that. Again,

15 national energy savings is just the difference

16 between base case energy consumption in each year

17 and standards case energy consumption in each

18 year, and we just take that difference and that's

19 the national energy savings. And again -- and in

20 that present value, you're looking at energy costs

21 savings compared to increases in equipment costs.

22 And you'll see in this diagram it also
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1 talks about repair, maintenance, and installation

2 costs. We are at present ignoring those because

3 we're assuming that there is no increase in any of

4 those with respect to efficiency. So no -- so if

5 you hydraulic redesign all your pumps, it's going

6 to cost the same to maintain, to repair, and to

7 install as your pump did before, which we based

8 sort of on the fact that, you know, you guys are

9 trying to design to the same dimensions and

10 everything, so it doesn't seem like there would be

11 an appreciable change.

12 So right now this, these, the total

13 install costs basically consist only of the

14 equipment price, which we have discussed, and

15 doesn't include installation costs. And the model

16 also is not looking at repair and maintenance

17 costs because we're assuming the delta would be

18 zero between all the efficiency levels.

19 I think we mentioned, we mentioned that

20 also before because those could go into the LCC as

21 well. So we've been ignoring them throughout the

22 analysis -- for all the analyses.
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1 The annual -- I'm just going through

2 this list of inputs. The annual energy use comes

3 from the LCC. It's the average value per

4 equipment class and efficiency level. For the

5 base case efficiencies, we used the shipment

6 weighted efficiency distributions that we got from

7 the data that we collected for 2012. Right now,

8 we're holding those distributions constant

9 throughout the analysis period.

10 One of the things that we've considered

11 doing is taking the trend from the motors

12 rulemaking and applying it to this rulemaking.

13 But if there's any other -- I think I've got a

14 slide on this somewhere. I don't remember where

15 it is, at the end.

16 If there's any, you know, if anybody has

17 data on sort of the historical trends of

18 efficiency over time, that's something that, that

19 we can build into the model, but at present, it is

20 not currently available.

21 And for the standards case efficiency

22 distributions, we assume that in the year of
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1 compliance, which is in this case 2019, all the

2 pumps that previously were below the efficiency

3 level, for example PER 40, anything below there

4 would roll up to PER 40. So nothing would over

5 shoot it. They would all just go to the new bare

6 minimum that was required. For energy prices --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, go ahead.

8 MR. TOWSLEY: No, that's okay. I'll let

9 her -- at the end.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Then I have a question.

11 So all those that roll to PER 40, what about the

12 ones that are above?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. Yes. The

14 ones above it stay where they were.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You mean

16 proportion - oh, they stay where they were. Okay.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so if you had like

18 5% at PER 10 and 10% at PER 25, you would take

19 that 15% and add it to the PER 40, and everything

20 else would stay the same.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: As -- so the energy
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1 prices, we're using the average prices from the

2 LCC and we're projecting them using AEO 2014. The

3 --

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question? Steve

5 Rosenstock, EEI. What, what -- how much did you

6 break out commercial versus industrial customers

7 for your energy price analysis?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: We're using -- for the

9 national impact analysis, we're using a weighted

10 average energy price for -- based on the

11 commercial/industrial split.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Wait, wait. Okay.

13 Steve Rosenstock --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So like in, in these --

15 so 47% are commercial and all the rest get the

16 industrial. We're assigning agriculture and

17 municipal to the industrial price right now. So

18 it's approximately a 50-50 split. It's, it's

19 technically weighted based on consumption, but --

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I, I know that,

21 but I'm just saying in terms --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so we did account
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1 for it. Yeah. Yes.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So they're set --

4 there's, there's separate price trends in the AEO

5 for commercial and industrial. Yes.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Got it.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Typically we use

8 electricity conversion factors to take site energy

9 savings to full fuel cycle energy savings. I

10 haven't actually done that yet. I'm just using an

11 estimate. We are still pulling the update for AEO

12 2014. So we will refine that later.

13 We -- for discount rates for all our

14 rule makings, we use 7% and 3% based on OMB

15 guidelines and the discount, the present year for

16 discounting is 2014. So.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

18 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

19 Back on total installed costs --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

21 MR. TOWSLEY: Now that I've had a chance

22 to think about it, I think as you drive the
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1 efficiency higher, to the higher PERs, the

2 assumption of the size of the pump and trying with

3 a target of keeping flange to flange dimensions or

4 feet dimensions is a good assumption, but I think

5 as you drive to higher efficiencies, that could

6 cause some changes to dilute sizes,

7 configurations, footing, those kinds of things. So

8 --

9 MS WILLIAMS: Okay.

10 MR. TOWSLEY: I think making a flat

11 assumption that installation costs would not

12 affect it over the full range is not a good one.

13 I don't know at what point --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Do --

15 MR. TOWSLEY: -- it changes. Whether

16 it's at 40, whether it's at 70 or, or where it is,

17 but at some point it will go up just based on

18 experience in, in --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: So if anyone would be

20 willing to speculate on -- I mean, I, yeah -- I

21 appreciate that input, but -- so we'll have to,

22 you know, basically pick a level at which to
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1 include some incremental costs. So if, if that's

2 something people can provide feedback on, that

3 would be great.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Why don't we caucus

5 this afternoon? I agree with Greg. At certain --

6 in order to optimize efficiency, sometimes you

7 have to actually stretch, stretch the pump,

8 whether it's length or height, to have more gentle

9 curves or gentle turns that --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. And maybe Greg can

11 give us -- Greg Case can give us an estimate.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: You're assuming he's

13 there.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so yeah. If you

15 guys want to caucus and, and give us --

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: We'll get back to you.

17 Either later that day or --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve over here has a

19 comment.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson of TACO.

21 On your method, you've got a statement in here,

22 DOE calculates the NPV by accumulating the
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1 difference each year between energy bill savings

2 and increased equipment expenditures. Could you

3 expand on what's meant by increased equipment

4 expenditures? Is that --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So in this case

6 it's really just the increased price for the pump.

7 MR. THOMPSON: Based on inflation or, or

8 --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, no. The difference

10 between the base case and the standards case. So

11 the same as in the LCC, where if you were buying a

12 pump at PER 10 and then it got redesigned - so,

13 and I should say right now I'm doing the full cost

14 recovery scenario in this to be more conservative

15 on the NPV. So it's basically the increased price

16 that you would pay if the consumers were getting

17 full pass-through.

18 MR. THOMPSON: So it kind of takes -

19 sorry. Steve Thompson. So it kind of takes into

20 account manufacturers re-engineering --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes. Yes. It's

22 assuming that the manufacturers are, are passing
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1 through all their conversion costs.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just tell me

5 the, the rollup assumption. I don't know how much

6 difference it makes, but, you know, if the price

7 of a pump doesn't change between PER 30 or

8 whatever and PER 70, you know, I'd assume that

9 there'd actually be a distribution of purchases in

10 that range, that there'd be no apparent reason for

11 someone to buy only a PER 40 versus a --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So we were

13 originally doing that for that exact same reason.

14 The reason we're not doing it right now is so we

15 can directly compare the no-cost recovery and the

16 full cost recovery scenario. And in the full cost

17 recovery scenario, there is an increase in each

18 efficiency level, so you would no longer expect

19 people to, like, sort of go wherever, right,

20 because it would cost them more to go there. So

21 to do a direct comparison, we no longer allow

22 people to jump, but -- I mean you make a good
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1 point, right.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

4 For the electricity conversion factors, I don't --

5 I looked on the EIA website. I hadn't seen --

6 have they published the electricity market module?

7 Because that's where they show some of the trends

8 in terms of the conversion, the decline in the

9 conversion factors.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm not sure what out --

11 all -- AEO 2014 is out right now and I believe

12 what we're doing to get the factors right now is

13 all coming from AEO and not NEMS, but again, I'm

14 not using those right now. And so when I do plug

15 those in, I'll be sure to let you know exactly --

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Are you using it from

17 another rule, like from the --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm just using an estimate

19 right now, a 2.5 factor.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's not declining

21 like all the other rules?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is just total --
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1 I ran the NIA. I haven't run the other model yet.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Okay.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is just to give

4 you an estimate. We'll do it the real way when --

5 but since AEO 2014 just came out, we don't have

6 the numbers, and rather than run it with the AEO

7 2013 and then update it later, I just haven't run

8 it yet. So.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So -- that's

10 kind of over -- if you used 2.5, it's going to

11 overstate it based on all the declines in all the

12 other rule makings that DOE has done.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: This - well, we could

14 debate it.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's not debatable.

16 It's what DOE's published.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's published rules

19 for all --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

21 MS. MAUER: It depends on each rule.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right, but they show a
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1 decline. They don't show it flat. And after

2 Monday it's going to be quite different.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: And so I, I think that

4 this isn't going to have a big impact on this

5 because everything's -- it's all relative between

6 the efficiency levels, so --

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- relative --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: The deltas between the

9 efficiency levels will be the same. So we will

10 definitely do it the correct way. I just have not

11 been able to implement that yet because AEO 2014

12 just came out and, and we haven't done all the

13 downstream analysis for this really yet.

14 So the other thing I just wanted to

15 mention before I show the results, is that

16 typically the NIA shows results in what are called

17 trial standards levels, which are combinations of

18 efficiency levels. Right now I'm just running it

19 with everything the same. So TSL1 is PER10 across

20 the board. TSL2 is PER25 across the board. But I

21 did just want to throw out for you in terms of

22 negotiation that, of course, you can choose
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1 different PER levels for different equipment

2 classes if you would like to and we can combine

3 those to get the results. But right now, it's

4 assuming the same efficiency level for every

5 equipment class.

6 So these are the, the cumulative

7 national energy savings. Again, as I said,

8 they're estimated. I'm basically taking site

9 energy savings and multiplying them by 2.5, which

10 is not completely correct as Steve has noted. So

11 you can see across -- I should say we don't have

12 results for RSV yet because we hadn't decided how

13 to implement them, but for the other four classes,

14 the total ranges from 0.2 at TSL1, which is PER

15 10, up to 0.76 at TSL5, which is PER 70. I

16 should've put those labels on here.

17 MR. SIVIGNY: Quick question. Is this

18 annual or is this total?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: This is total.

20 Cumulative over the 30 year period, and it also

21 includes the trailing savings after 30 years.

22 MS. MAUER: Thirty years of sales.
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1 MR. SIVIGNY: Thiry years of sales.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

3 MR. SIVIGNY: I just want to make

4 sure. So this is 2048.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Sales.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the savings continue

7 past 2048 because you've made the investment, but

8 you didn't capture the energy savings. So we

9 bring that back into the analysis period.

10 MR. SIVIGNY: It's worth it.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Sold on the last --

12 Charlie Cappellino, ITT. If the pump is sold on

13 the last day of that 30 year window --

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: You count the cost and

15 the expected savings over the life of that --

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Over the lifetime of

17 the product. Not another 30 years, just the

18 lifetime of the product.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct. Yep.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. The next two

21 slides are net present value at 3% and 7%. Again,

22 I ran this with the full cost recovery scenario
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1 because it would be most conservative to

2 consumers. This is in billions of dollars so you

3 can see the savings. Everything's positive and it

4 goes from 0.8 billion to 2.8 billion at 3%, and

5 0.3 to 1.0 at 7%. So. There - - I just wanted to

6 throw a few things out there.

7 We don't have to talk about these right

8 now. This was basically a really simple analysis.

9 There is several things we can do to make it more

10 refined. One is the efficiency projections that I

11 talked about before, we could implement base case

12 efficiency trends. We could make some assumptions

13 about impeller trimming, what percentage of

14 shipments are trimmed and what power ratio they

15 have. Currently we're not assuming any use of

16 VSD. So we could implement those and we could

17 implement an efficiency degradation factor.

18 So these are various things that if you

19 have inputs for that you would want to refine the

20 model more, we can certainly do those things.

21 Right now this is a pretty simple NIA just to give

22 us these base case results. So that -- those are
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1 all the slides I have.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: That's still plenty.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So I don't -- do you guys

4 have any other questions?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Your thought process,

6 Alison, is that everybody in the room can take

7 these back, they can look at them, they can send

8 questions, they can reflect upon what's in here,

9 etc.?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. And, and again, I

11 do sort of want to iterate -- like a lot of times,

12 just to give this some perspective -- a lot of

13 times what happens is that some of the NPVs are

14 negative. And I think that in some cases if that

15 were true, it would help you guys negotiate, but

16 since everything's positive, I think you're

17 probably not going to be negotiating that much on

18 this stuff. It's going to be some of these other

19 factors that we have discussed.

20 So by all means, certainly, you know,

21 take these and review them, but in general the

22 theme of the savings seems to be the, the consumer
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1 impacts actually look pretty good no matter what

2 efficiency level you're at. So that, that might

3 not be the, the main point of what you guys are

4 going to negotiate around, I would suspect.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom.

6 MR. ECKMAN: And the ones you're showing

7 here are ones where the manufacturers are --

8 that's at the one goal post they recover all their

9 costs?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So they -- there

11 would be an even higher NPV in the other case,

12 yes.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So the -- oh, I didn't

14 get that. Say that again.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is the full cost

16 recovery case.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Full cost recovery.

18 Okay.

19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Alison,

20 just one quick question. Looking at, kind of

21 comparing shipment data to the, the energy savings

22 for the end section categories, so the close-
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1 coupled shipments are about four times the frame2 mounted shipments, and the national energy savings

3 are roughly the same. Is that because frame4 mount, the kind of weighted average horsepower

5 frame-mounted pumps is significantly higher?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

7 MS. MAUER: Okay.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: And there will also be

9 impacts of the efficiency distributions in those

10 also, but yeah. What? Oh right. Yeah, longer

11 lives on the frame-mounted. Yes. Yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: What are you suggesting

13 we do next?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, well, Lucas is back.

15 Well -- maybe we can have a small break.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. We should

17 take a small break. I'm ready for a lunch break.

18 Let's take -- let's take a 15 minute break, and

19 that means, that means we'll resume at 2:30.

20 (SESSION BREAK)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Here we go. Chris

22 Lau is going to be presenting, and Chris, lead us
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1 off.

2 MR. LAU: All right. Hi, folks. I'm

3 Chris Lau, Navigant. I've got to see most of you

4 before. You know, Alison is up here today trying

5 to talk to Mark about a few things. There's

6 interplay between the LCC and the MIA, a

7 manufacturer impact analysis. But really the

8 analysis that addresses what happens in the

9 industry is the MIA, the manufacturer impact

10 analysis.

11 And so I'm going to walk you through

12 some of the results today. But as I said before,

13 the purpose is to assess the impacts of different

14 standard levels on manufacturers. We do this for

15 a cash flow model, you know, your standard for

16 accounting MBA type thing. But what -- we've taken

17 a bunch of inputs, mostly things we discussed

18 already over the course of the last few sessions.

19 The MPCs for the engineering, the shipments that

20 Alison had mentioned, financial parameters that we

21 vetted as a group, the markups to get from

22 manufacturing production cost to manufacturing
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1 selling price, which I'll get to.

2 But essentially what you have at a very

3 high level is you have industry shipments, you

4 have industry pricing, and that gives you revenue.

5 You subtract off COGs. Right? And operating

6 costs. And that gives you operating profit, and

7 we're able to from there into a cash flow

8 statement. So that's what

9 --

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. A

11 question on the prior slide.

12 MR. LAU: Yes, sir?

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Is, is that a

14 suggestion you're making, that the industry

15 impacts are grim?

16 MR. LAU: No. It's the government

17 regulatory impact model. And I've been trying for

18 years to change the name of this model, but it

19 just won't -- it just cannot be done. It's too

20 ingrained in the institution.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I would add having

22 been a part of the process when that was coined,
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1 Chuck Samuelson and others thought that was quite

2 clever.

3 MR. HANDZEL: It actually gave them a

4 chuckle.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

6 MR. LAU: So it is a discounted cash

7 flow model based on (inaudible) discussed. I can

8 go into the mechanics, but I think the things that

9 will probably interest the folks around the table

10 most are sort of what the forecasts are, what the

11 output is. So let me try to get to that.

12 Really we modeled two different

13 scenarios here, a lower bound, upper bound markup.

14 As we've --

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Are you going to

16 revisit that later?

17 MR. LAU: Yes. Yes, I will. I'll

18 revisit - - let's go to the results, and then we

19 can go back down to the mechanics of this method

20 if necessary. So we discuss this flat markup.

21 It's minimal to no cost recovery. We assume that

22 manufacturers do not raise, change any prices due
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1 to a very highly competitive market. And this

2 results in minimal change in end- user pricing.

3 The other end is the recovery markup

4 where we try to model a high level of cost

5 recovery. Manufacturers are able to increase their

6 selling price to recover conversion costs, as well

7 as increase in any change in variable costs, which

8 there isn't really much. But what this does is,

9 results in a maximum increase to end-user pricing.

10 Up top is the flat markup. It's the

11 average markup we assumed for the industry based

12 on HI data, interview notes, and pricing

13 information we collected. The cost recovery markup

14 is based off of our estimated conversion costs and

15 the percent of shipments we think will fall out at

16 each level. And you can sort of see the

17 percentage. Someone asked earlier, well, what's

18 recovery markup? What's that mean in terms of our

19 pricing? You can sort of get a sense -- this is

20 the change in markup, and so you get a sense of

21 (inaudible) price increases we're talking about.

22 Here's the thing, though. I think this
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1 wasn't necessarily clear. What happens is, if you

2 assume that there is no price increase for the

3 industry, as you increase your standard level,

4 industry value drops. Right? If you assume you

5 have a higher amount of cost recovery, it actually

6 makes the industry look better because we're

7 assuming you're making that money back. You're

8 raising prices and you're making more revenue to

9 cover -- not -- to cover those upfront costs.

10 And so what you end up with is an upper

11 bound. So the cost recovery is the upper bound to

12 what happens to industry, and the flat markup is

13 the lower bound. Right? You're always going to

14 do worse if you don't raise your prices.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

17 ITT. What's the scale on the left --

18 MR. LAU: That is the industry net

19 present value. So what we do --

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: In millions?

21 MR. LAU: In millions, yes, sir.

22 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. So in
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1 the cost recovery scenario, it's not --

2 MR. LAU: It's not a full cost

3 recovery, right.

4 MS. MAUER: It's not a full cost

5 recovery. Does that mean it's not the same

6 assumption as the assumption in the engineering

7 analysis?

8 MR. LAU: I think -- I think there is

9 a -- there's a little bit of a timing issue. What

10 happens is the day we announce the standard,

11 manufacturers know what the target is. They're

12 going to start making those investments. Right?

13 They actually don't start recouping those

14 investments until 2019 when the standard goes into

15 effect. However, we built the markups, or we

16 didn't take that timing difference into account in

17 the markups.

18 So we just assumed that the conversion

19 costs are -- where did I have that? Oh, I don't

20 have the conversion costs here. If the conversion

21 costs are $20 million, they make that investment

22 up front. They don't recover for five years.
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1 They don't start recovering until five years out.

2 And so there's this difference in terms of value

3 of -- time value of that money.

4 MS. MAUER: So you're saying it's the

5 assumption that cost recovery -- if the investment

6 was made instead all in 2019 --

7 MR. LAU: Yes.

8 MS. MAUER: Then the change in --

9 MR. LAU: Yes -

10 MS. MAUER: -- would be zero?

11 MR. LAU: Yes. Yes. It should. We

12 can iterate these numbers to make them out so that

13 MIA nets out at zero. But then your lower bound -

14 - your lower bound (inaudible) this flat markup,

15 right, where you kind of see this sort of

16 decreasing industry net present value. And your

17 upper bound would just be flat. Right?

18 And so you see this loss of industry

19 value as you increase the standard. And then the

20 cost recovery markup would just be zero, zero,

21 zero, zero, zero across the board. But what I

22 think -- what happens if you do that, those
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1 markups increase even more than they do today.

2 And I don't think, you know -- I think if you

3 manufacture with these markups, they would say,

4 well, we're not going to -- I would imagine it's

5 tough to pass on a 13% price increase in the

6 industry.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Could you go back to

8 that other, the slide with the percentages?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

11 EEI.

12 MR. LAU: Yes.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: When you say minus

14 210%, what is your base at PER 40 --

15 MR. LAU: Right. So basically -

16 sorry, I should have -- as I said, we have this

17 cash flow model where we say every year how much

18 does the industry make, right?

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

20 MR. LAU: Then we add back in all the

21 cash - - all the depreciation. There's actually

22 no cash changing hands. We go back down to really
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1 cash on hand. And then once we have this for the

2 analysis period, for 2013, 2014 date, and we

3 discount -- we discount by saying, well, if you

4 add up all the future cash flow in the industry,

5 how much is the industry worth? Right? And in

6 reality, industry can't go below zero. So that's

7 more a figment of the analysis. Right? At some

8 point manufacturers just leave the industry.

9 But, so that negative 200 is a

10 fluctuation meaning industry value that was below

11 zero.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So it'd be like

13 negative, the --

14 MR. LAU: Yeah. The upfront

15 investment was worth, cost more than the industry

16 is worth.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So again, when you

18 say negative, more than negative 100%, I just kind

19 of --

20 MR. LAU: Yeah, I understand. I

21 understand. Mathematically it works out. In

22 reality it doesn't really make sense.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Got you.

2 MR. ECKMAN: So how's the investment

3 -- what's the timeframe of the investment

4 conversion cost? Is that all one year or is it

5 spread over the four years between now --

6 MR. LAU: They're spread out.

7 They're spread out between the base year and the

8 standard year.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Which is four?

10 MR. LAU: In this case, five years.

11 Yeah. Five years. All the capital conversion

12 costs are made by 2018, but I believe the product

13 conversion costs (inaudible) 2019. And so --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

16 Just to make sure it's clear, what was your

17 assumption on the manufacturing cost of the

18 product to achieve the various levels of

19 efficiency improvement? Is that still a no

20 increase?

21 MR. LAU: So we assumed the MPCs

22 would have no change as the standard increased.
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1 However, there would be conversion costs, and

2 those conversion costs drove, would drive price

3 increases.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm still concerned

5 about that. I just need to have a little more

6 dialogue around that to know cost of manufacturing

7 as you drive up to the higher and higher

8 efficiency values. We need to spend some more

9 time on that at some point.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, I'm unclear

11 on how you'd like to pursue that. Is that just in

12 your caucus? Or I don't quite get where you want

13 to go.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, I guess I'd

15 like to talk to Daniel a little bit about the

16 input that he's gotten from various sources and

17 understand some of the assumptions that he made

18 and how he drew that conclusion. So I don't want

19 to do it now. But I'd like to --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And just to be

21 clear, the analysis team is available to consult

22 with both caucuses, individuals, all of that. So
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1 you can explore this stuff. Whether you get it

2 done today, whether you do it tomorrow, whether

3 you do it offline, noting that additional

4 analysis, as we said in our last meeting, should

5 be -- should be requested through Lucas, that is

6 if he's not in the maternity ward. Lucas -- I

7 mean, pardon me. Louis. Louis.

8 MR. STARR: So on the next -- the one

9 with the yellow and green line on it. So

10 basically what that tells you, looking at that

11 chart where you cross over zero, that's the last

12 business case that it makes sense where those two

13 lines cross. So it's anywhere from PER 27 to PER

14 35 or something?

15 MR. LAU: Sure. Yes. So --

16 MR. STARR: I mean maybe you could

17 explain what that means in real terms.

18 MR. LAU: Sure. Look at, over here.

19 This is percent change in industry value. In

20 general, not always, but in general, DOE has

21 steered away from standards that drop the

22 industry, that wipe out industry value. Right?
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1 They don't -- they generally stay away from

2 anything that's triple digits. Okay? If that

3 makes sense. So 100%. There have been some cases

4 where it's -- I've been told that it's not been

5 true, but it's mostly been a figment of the

6 analysis. Funny things. I won't go into a lot of

7 detail.

8 But now I think historically DOE has

9 played more in this range, from no change in

10 industry value to something less than 100%. And

11 once again, we have just found the range. You

12 know, PER 25, we're talking about industry loses

13 between 50% and 90% of industry value. I don't

14 know what DOE would do in that situation. I don't

15 know what DOE would select. Right?

16 They would take this into account along

17 with energy savings and all the other analyses to

18 try to make some sort of trade-off analysis.

19 However, I think the opportunity here is, as a

20 group, is not putting that into -- necessarily

21 putting that into DOE's hands, having that

22 discussion up front to try to come up with
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1 something that makes sense given the stakeholders

2 here rather than waiting -- rather than letting

3 DOE decide, putting a NOPR, having a whole lot of

4 comment, and then DOE going back in the dark room

5 and coming back in a final rule. That's the

6 typical process.

7 There are sort of these blackout periods

8 between public announcements because you can't

9 advantage any single party. You can't announce

10 anything until all analyses is complete.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

12 MS. MAUER: I guess I'm trying to

13 kind of reconcile some of the numbers and make

14 sense of them. I guess one thing -- the cost

15 recovery scenario where you explained they're not

16 fully -- manufacturers aren't fully recovering

17 costs, but they're recovering a significant

18 portion of their costs, and yet at anything above

19 PER 25, industry net present value is negative.

20 MR. LAU: I wish, so -- let me pull

21 up some quick numbers to give you sort of a little

22 bit of, that might help inform that, that
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1 cognitive dissonance.

2 MS. MAUER: And I guess my other kind

3 of high-level question maybe to the group is the

4 EU standards are roughly equivalent to PER 40, I

5 think with significant manufacturer input into

6 those standards. I wonder how that reconciles

7 with these.

8 MR. LAU: The conversion cost to

9 industry at baseline, total, is zero. At PER 10,

10 it's about 20 million. At PER 25, it's about 80

11 million. AT PER 40, it's 178 million. At PER 55,

12 it's like 342 million. So right around PER 40, at

13 178 million, that level of investment, it's rough,

14 more than three times the value of industry in the

15 base case.

16 Basically what I'm saying is it's a

17 really - - it's a fairly significant investment

18 for the industry (inaudible) common factors.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you repeat those?

20 Dan -- go ahead, Dan.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: I just wanted to --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Stand up.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: I think I can help

2 address Joanna's other question about the EU.

3 From what, our research looking at the documents

4 published by the EU, roughly the same amount of

5 models exist. Roughly ten times the amount of

6 shipments off those models. So you have a lot

7 more revenue per unit investment that you have to

8 do to make a change. So that can help reconcile

9 why they're able to go --

10 MS. MAUER: Ten times as many

11 shipments in the EU?

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Just a lot

13 more pump, water pump usage there.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris, will you repeat

15 the last comparison you made based on Joanna's

16 question?

17 MR. LAU: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I said

18 at PER 40, the investment by industry is expected

19 to be about 178 million. So that's roughly three

20 times, more than three times, the industry value

21 in the base case. And it's just a rough

22 comparison to get a sense of how, the magnitude of
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1 those conversion rates.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I

4 have a question of Dan. Why is it the shipments

5 in the EU are so much greater than here? What do

6 they do with all those pumps?

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: I don't know.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Do the manufacturers

9 know?

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Do they have more

11 hydronic systems in Europe?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: They have more

13 hydronic systems.

14 MR. Lau: Population difference.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Virtually every home is

16 hydronic systems.

17 MS. MAUER: But we're not - those -

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: And we'd be looking

20 at homes and business pumps. Businesses,

21 commercial buildings are going to need pumps

22 (inaudible).
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, what I'd just

2 like to point out as we look to the future,

3 there's a lot of talk on the west coast with a

4 movement towards zero net energy homes, about the

5 future of the heat pump and hydronic --

6 MR. HANDZEL: You can't do without

7 hydronics.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. So I think in

9 this country the prevalence of water pumping is

10 going to increase.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Even that little

12 thing called the drought out west, they're going

13 to --

14 MR. HANDZEL: Well, it's a closed

15 system. It's a re-circ system, so you fill it once

16 and, you know --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

18 MR. STARR: So this was kind of

19 earlier what I was talking about. The shipment

20 numbers here are basically based on 420,000

21 shipments. Right? So that's the HI estimate.

22 But we know HI is not all the ones selling the
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1 pumps, and it seems like we need to dial in with

2 that shipment number, is for non-HI members, which

3 I thought that's why I was suggesting that we use

4 800,000 because that's what we use in Dan

5 Weintraub's analysis. So I wasn't sure. And now

6 it makes a big difference because you have more

7 units to spread out over --

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: I'll address that.

9 This is Dan Weintraub, Navigant. There was no --

10 the only scaling I did when I talk about

11 representing half of the industry in my analysis,

12 I said we have half the shipments. It was half of

13 what HI had specified was the whole, which is

14 420,000.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, they -- they did

16 their own scalar.

17 MR. STARR: Oh, they did their own

18 scalars -

19 MR. HANDZEL: So we, we actually

20 included an adjustment factor based on the old

21 Department of Commerce report, which is what we've

22 always, you know, normalized our data to.
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1 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. So you had the

2 scalars on there already.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: We just had raw data

5 compared to --

6 MR. HANDZEL: But the -- but the

7 challenge we had was that we never had the

8 constraints of clean water only, 1-200 horsepower.

9 So I mean there's more interpretation in it than

10 we've typically done before because we had to put

11 some limits and stops on it in places.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: But Louis, that's

13 good. That's an important clarification right

14 there.

15 MR. STARR: Yeah. I mean if there's

16 anything in there, then yeah, it makes sense.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, please.

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: Just to follow up on

19 that. If we're trying to think about it in

20 perspective, if we are missing import shipments,

21 we're also missing the conversion costs associated

22 with those. So the baseline assumption for me
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1 would be that the same ratio of number of models

2 to percentage of shipments, number of models, or

3 shipments per model that it needs to be redesigned

4 holds as compared to the rest of the industry.

5 MR. STARR: It seems like if you have

6 more of, more products, then you can spread it out

7 across. That's what we were just saying in the

8 European market. They have ten times as many

9 pumps. So it seems like when you have more items

10 into there, you could spread those conversion

11 costs across more of them.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: So Dan Weintraub.

13 What I'm saying is there's more cost also because

14 we didn't account for the models themselves that

15 would need to be redesigned. And as Chris said,

16 you have to account for all of the costs and all

17 of the revenue.

18 MR. ECKMAN: That assumes that all

19 the imports have the same efficiency mix.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Exactly.

21 MR. LAU: Right. Correct.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: That is correct. We
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1 don't --

2 MR. ECKMAN: We don't -- we have no

3 information.

4 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel from

5 Xylem. We were having some discussions on our own

6 amongst, about imports, because, you know, some of

7 us, you know, Greg's company, my company, TACO, we

8 all import pumps into the US. Some of them

9 components, some of them in full pumps, you know.

10 So, but we report them as sales in the US. So we

11 aren't, you know, so we don't want to double

12 count.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Right.

14 MR. HANDZEL: You know, so -- I mean

15 that's why -- and plus, so what percentage of all

16 those imports is within the scope of what we

17 define in this rule making too? So it's -- those

18 are the tough questions. I mean we will -- HI

19 will still say that we have counted the majority

20 of the products being sold in the scope of this

21 product, in this group, in those estimates. Okay.

22 We think -- if we -- looking at the companies that
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1 we know we have survey results from, we feel it's

2 a very accurate number.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley, do you

4 have a question or comment?

5 MR. TOWSLEY: No. Covered.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris, is that it?

7 MR. LAU: That's all.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That's all. I

9 expected a lot more. Okay.

10 MR. HANDZEL: So again, Chris -- Mark

11 Handzel from Xylem. So just based on the

12 discussions and some of the other changes today

13 that, you know, to some of the things that we've

14 talked back and forth, do you think your numbers

15 will have any significant changes based on some of

16 the things? Are they -- Are you pretty solid and

17 set?

18 MR. LAU: I think if you're looking

19 at this from a levels perspective, these

20 relatively discrete levels, I think the general

21 cutoffs are in the same places. Right. And if we

22 get to a point where we want to look at something
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1 that splits a level, we can go there when the

2 discussion gets to that point.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

4 EEI. So a significant change --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, Steve.

6 They seem kind of linear. Do you expect the

7 linearity to kind of --

8 MR. LAU: Yeah. You know what? It's

9 because of the conversion costs scale relatively

10 linearly.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve, go

12 ahead.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

14 EEI. So even if there was, let's say, a

15 significant jump in the shipments based on updated

16 data, those numbers would stay relatively the

17 same, you think?

18 MR. LAU: It would depend whether our

19 rate - - percent of shipments that got redesigned

20 or that ratio changed.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. You'd have to
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1 assume that would be in line as well. So --

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I didn't know

3 if the economies of scale would play in to factor.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm unclear what we

5 should do next. Maybe we should give -

6 MR. LAU: E-mail those, the

7 presentation?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So what we have

9 presented now is basically everything we have.

10 Right? Engineering, LCC, shipments, NIA, and MIA.

11 So these are all the data. As Mark asked, you

12 know, we can make some tweaks. We don't expect

13 any hugely significant changes unless, yeah,

14 something, I don't know, drastic were to happen.

15 What we can do if you guys start

16 discussing levels as Chris just mentioned, you

17 know, if you want to look at like a PER 30 or

18 something, we can run those and give you those

19 numbers. So there's some other things that we can

20 do. But in general, you guys have basically what

21 we are able to provide. So --

22 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I don't think
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1 there's anything else to --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. That was

3 just Alison. Now Lucas.

4 MR. ADIN: But, I mean what you've

5 seen is the analysis that DOE would normally do in

6 a standards rule making. So we would present, I

7 mean, with a lot more explanation and discussion.

8 But in a notice of proposed rule making, we have

9 all these analyses and an explanation of kind of

10 how things fall out. This is what, you know, in

11 large part, the decision about a standard level

12 was based on.

13 In this case it's a little -- well, at

14 least it's less like the rules that I've typically

15 had experience with where it might be clearer

16 where a standard level might be looking reasonable

17 based on both a combination of consumer impacts

18 and manufacturer impacts. Here it might be a

19 little bit harder to kind of drill down to that.

20 But I mean, we're relying in large part

21 on your reactions to all of what we presented so

22 far. And certainly if there are other things that
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1 you think would be helpful, like Alison mentioned

2 looking at standard levels in between or, you

3 know, some other dimension of this, we can. Now

4 is, I think, the time to figure out what those

5 are.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: So Charlie

8 Cappellino. So if I understand, we saw the two

9 pieces, the consumer piece and the manufacturers

10 piece.

11 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: One of the things we

13 had dialogue around, and I don't think we've

14 really revisited lately, is the ability to execute

15 the changes in a timeframe as far as resources

16 and, you know, the engineering availability, to be

17 able to execute all of the -- because in the end

18 here, the redesign is all hydraulic redesign.

19 That's kind of where we ended up. Right?

20 I mean we're saying we can't get much

21 out of surface finish improvements and advanced

22 manufacturing. So it lays the entire efficiency
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1 improvement at the doorstep of hydraulic designer,

2 so to speak. So I don't know how that fits into

3 any kind of analysis in terms of being able to

4 execute. That would be one --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris Lau.

6 MR. LAU: This is Chris Lau of

7 Navigant. I think Dan has a little perspective

8 there, but overall I would -- I would say that

9 what I'm hearing is that there is a timeframe

10 issue. And really what I am hearing is that, as

11 part of the negotiation, the time period between

12 the -- between the announcement date and the

13 effective date should be part of the discussion.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: In previous discussion

15 we've also heard there's a resource availability

16 issue. I've heard in previous discussion that

17 there's a limited number of these designers around

18 -- if they're going to have to design all product

19 lines, that's a big workload, that sort of thing.

20 Right?

21 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. I mean -- Mark

22 Handzel. I mean, that's been something that we've
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1 said all along, is that all of the resources that

2 would be used for this, they're all the same

3 places. You know, they're all the same foundries.

4 They're all the same designers of the hydraulic

5 design. They're all the same pattern designers.

6 You know, so it's all the same people.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

8 MR. STARR: So I think one thing that

9 probably would be helpful is knowing where in the

10 base case and then in the markup case and the no

11 markup pass, and then some markup pass, where the

12 zero is on the net present value, where does it

13 cross and start becoming negative? That would - I

14 don't know if you know that off the top of your

15 head. But understanding where those two points

16 are would be good to understand.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. LAU: I don't think it

19 necessarily ties to the discussion about design

20 capacity.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: No, it does. It's a

22 different, a different direction, yeah.
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1 MR. STARR: It's just on that screen

2 with the yellow and blue, or the yellow and green,

3 you have where it crosses over at zero. What's

4 the PER levels for those two things?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, Charlie

6 Cappellino.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

8 The other thing that I'm am trying to understand,

9 I think everything we saw here was all around

10 improving the efficiency of the bare pump. Right?

11 And from the beginning we've all said that's one

12 area of energy savings, but there's a richer field

13 and more to be had looking at the extended product

14 piece of this. And I'm trying to understand how

15 does that fit with the analysis done to date. And

16 is that -- how does that become part of the

17 decision-making process and part of the

18 negotiation?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: And the reason I say

21 that is -- sorry, just to finish up here. Again

22 it gets back to resources, whether it's people or
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1 investment. We've got a limited pool there. And

2 the more we apply to, let's say, trying to squeeze

3 the last point of efficiency out of a pump, it's

4 going to take away from investment in people that

5 we could apply to designing other products from an

6 extended products standpoint and get the energy

7 savings that could be had there. So I didn't know

8 how that came together here with our overall

9 intent of trying to save energy as a collective

10 group here.

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. HANDZEL: I just want to add on

13 that too. I mean there's also a different

14 consumer impact on extended product because of,

15 you know, mandating the use of drives will make

16 the product more expensive, you know, than just a

17 pump and a motor. So, you know, you'd think there

18 would need to be some economic analysis on that.

19 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So the way I was

20 going to try and answer Charlie's question was by

21 saying that really there's kind of potentially two

22 ways to get at that. I mean if you wanted to
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1 guarantee savings as a result of use of variable

2 speed drives (inaudible) you would have to write

3 the standard in a way that would require their use

4 for a certain percentage of the products. So

5 products of a certain design are used in certain

6 ways, but have to use a variable speed drive. And

7 the feedback that we've gotten so far is that you

8 wouldn't want to write a standard that does that

9 necessarily. I mean certainly if there are other

10 opinions about it, we'd be interested. But --

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie

12 Cappellino again. So -- but we spent a lot of

13 time putting together the PER, right, for a

14 reason. And again, I'm presuming that that's

15 maybe more for a labeling approach. I'm having a

16 hard time connecting all of that effort and work

17 that we've done because there's lots of energy

18 savings to be had there, but it doesn't seem to be

19 so rolled into the analysis also.

20 MR. ADIN: There's a difference --

21 right. So we do the analysis based on what a

22 manufacturer would have to do to minimally comply
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1 with the standard. So a -- the way we were

2 designing this metric, a manufacturer could use

3 other design options to do that. We're just not

4 considering the motor or variable speed drives as

5 a design option for achieving those savings.

6 But a manufacturer could choose to do

7 that. And so perspectively there's certain

8 applications wherein the energy savings could be

9 larger. We can only guarantee what a manufacturer

10 would do in the minimally compliant sense to get

11 to those efficiency levels.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: But it is certainly

13 something that you -- I mean that's a good

14 negotiating point. Right? Like we don't

15 necessarily have to provide that analysis for you

16 to say, well, we can trade off, you know. If we

17 don't have to invest so much in hydraulic

18 efficiency, then we can invest more -- like what

19 we provide in terms of the analysis doesn't have

20 to, and you don't necessarily have to negotiate

21 only on what we have provided you. Right? And it

22 is -- we could potentially use the LCC and the NIA
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1 to model the impacts of a label, for example.

2 It's difficult because we don't really

3 know what the market, what the -- what the impact

4 of it. So it's not somewhere we really want to go,

5 but the concept of that is something you can

6 certainly negotiate.

7 MS. WIDDER: And we are going to

8 discuss the metric and the label, or the standard

9 and the label tomorrow during the metric

10 discussion. But I think you should think of the

11 standards analysis addressing pump only as sort of

12 like a worst case scenario. If you had to sell a

13 pump with the worst available motor and no

14 controls, what options are available to you to

15 improve the efficiency and reach the standard

16 level?

17 Now in the real world there are many

18 other options available that are not accounted for

19 in Alison and Dan's analysis and maybe more cost

20 effective, but they're not going to analyze that.

21 That's up to you as manufacturers to determine

22 what the best way to meet an appropriate standard
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1 level is and what an appropriate standard level is

2 at all. Those two things sort of go together.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Sarah. Tom

4 Eckman.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I just want to

6 reiterate what Sarah is talking about there. I

7 mean from -- I think our collective at this end,

8 you know, we were interested in the extended

9 product. Setting the standard on the bare pump

10 still leaves you the latitude because of the way

11 the metric is being discussed here. To meet it

12 any other way that you'd like with the other

13 components of the system when it's a system, and

14 to the extent you sell the bare pump only, then

15 that's a constraint. That means hydraulic

16 redesign by and large.

17 But it doesn't mean full product line

18 hydraulic redesign if you have other options, be

19 they controls, slightly better motor, whatever to

20 improve the product and take advantage of those

21 options. I think the setting the standards so

22 that it allows that other, those other options to
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1 be pursued, may relieve constraints over time.

2 Maybe you do the pump redesign, but you don't have

3 the -- that's not the first thing you do because

4 you can't get there with a full product line. We

5 each have to decide how to do that yourselves.

6 And, you know, there's, from our

7 perspective, I think there's a fair amount, from

8 what we've looked at, a fair number of products

9 that go out with the motor. So you have some

10 control over that as an option. I thought I saw

11 70% of the product sales were along with a motor.

12 Now maybe that's specified by the buyer, maybe

13 it's specified in your plan, but a slightly

14 improved motor might get you over the, over the

15 edge, depending on where we pick to put it. And I

16 think that's, you know, from our perspective, a

17 way to get around some of these potential bumps in

18 the road. Either do the personnel constraints,

19 just number of hydraulic engineers tasked to do

20 whatever, or the value added proposition, which

21 is, well, we could price that differently because

22 it's a better motor.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So -- this is Gary.

2 If I could just add one quick thing. By having

3 the test method and the analytic framework to

4 value the motor and control, it gives us a

5 methodology of determining additional value maybe

6 for rebate programs that would result in energy

7 savings that go above and beyond the standard.

8 So, you know, my vision is kind of a standard for

9 pumps and a valuation methodology that would allow

10 for estimating savings or value in savings belong

11 that.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. Steve has a

13 comment. Please, Steve.

14 MR. THOMPSON: A quick question or

15 clarification for Steve Thompson. On the national

16 impact analysis report, reviewing it -- you had

17 mentioned that includes increased equipment

18 expenditure. So that's the cost of redevelopment.

19 Is that based on a negative net present value?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I think I

21 misspoke earlier. I had said it was zero change

22 in INPV over the analysis period, but as Chris
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1 mentioned, because there was a five year time lag,

2 that was actually an incorrect statement. So it

3 does not result in zero INPV. We could model a

4 zero INPV scenario, but as Chris said, that would

5 just leave you at zero. So I think the current

6 scenario is probably still of an okay bound

7 because, you know, as Chris said, the percentage

8 increases of 10 or 13% probably are already pretty

9 steep.

10 So we can certainly discuss modeling

11 something else, but, yeah, I misspoke on that

12 subject. I had initially -- we had initially

13 thought it was zero INPV. We actually iterate

14 with the MIA if we actually want to get there, and

15 we haven't had a chance to do that iteration yet.

16 Yeah.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

18 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel from

19 Xylem. You know, I guess, Tom, I'm kind of - I'm

20 kind of in a quandary here because, you know, I

21 understood the initiative here was, you know, to

22 regulate pump efficiency.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Bare pump.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Bare pump efficiency.

3 Right. That was the way that we started. And

4 obviously the Hydraulic Institute came in with the

5 extended product approach and said that there is a

6 far greater opportunity, you know, to take

7 advantage of energy savings, which was the

8 ultimate goal of what the DOE and the advocates

9 had wanted.

10 So I almost hear you saying instead of

11 redesigning your pump, you can get it through

12 other means and --

13 MR. ECKMAN: I'm just saying there's

14 the flexibility to do that. I'm not saying that

15 that's what you choose to do.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

17 MR. ECKMAN: But there's an option

18 exists because the way the metric is described to

19 take any one of those components and improve it

20 enough to meet the standard. It may be a short21 run solution, it may be a long-run solution,

22 depending upon the overall market.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Because obviously we're

2 all using the same motors that are made by the

3 motor manufacturers, so we have limited

4 capabilities to exceed what's available in the

5 market because we don't make them, they do. And

6 they're obviously regulated under a separate rule

7 making, you know, that kind of sets their levels.

8 So --

9 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I don't think

10 it's going to cost more.

11 MR. HANDZEL: You know, I mean it

12 clearly would be a very short-term opportunity, if

13 anything, I think, to do what you're suggesting.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I'm not

15 advertising that -- I think that's a business

16 decision that you're going to have to make as

17 manufacturers, whether you decide to do the

18 hydraulic redesign or whether you choose some

19 other option or a combination thereof.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Because maybe you have

22 products that are going out with VFD already that
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1 are integrated products, and they would satisfy

2 the standard, which assumes that there's not a VFD

3 on there. So you've got some ways of getting

4 there that -- because it's not a one-zero

5 proposition, is what I'm saying. I think there

6 are other options that might allow you to meet a

7 certain product requirement that is bare pump

8 driven and assumes default values for all the

9 other components, but you can get there because

10 you already manufacture a product, because it's

11 integrated that does that.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, then Steve.

13 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I don't know if I

14 had much to add beyond what Tom just said. But I

15 mean, obviously decisions like that would -- if

16 they're made across the industry it would affect

17 some of the numbers that we've put up there. We

18 don't - we don't have a surefire way to exactly

19 predict because that's, you know, dependent upon

20 the choices that you all make and to some extent

21 will be dependent upon the products that consumers

22 want to buy, you know, once these start coming on
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1 the market.

2 So the metric that we use and the test

3 method that is designed to show the benefit of the

4 use of a variable speed system, you know, the hope

5 was that that would drive more sales of those

6 types of products. And we'd like to be able to

7 estimate what those kinds of savings will be, but

8 we'd have to be -- we'd have to speculate.

9 And so the best that we can do is what

10 we showed up here, which is the minimum design

11 options we picked. But, you know, hopefully there

12 will be more use of systems that drive down energy

13 use. So, sorry. Go ahead, Steve.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No, he wasn't done

16 yet.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I wanted to get

18 you in the queue before others jumped in.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, okay.

20 MR. ADIN: I'm done. I'm finishing

21 my thought.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,
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1 EEI. I think that, I think it's also, as again,

2 this is a first-time standard, and if you want it

3 to go into that extended product for negotiation,

4 I think it would be only fair that we would have

5 to expand the scope of who's at the table. We

6 would have to bring in the motor manufacturers and

7 the drive manufacturers because we're affecting

8 their products possibly.

9 But in this case, since we're really

10 kind of focused on the bare pump with the options

11 of the improvement in the motors and the other

12 controls, this, I think, this helps us. In this

13 process it helps us by not trying to cover the

14 motors and the drive as part of a suggested

15 standard.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd

18 like to go back to Mark and Tom's dialogue. When

19 we started our discussion a couple of years ago,

20 we were thinking improvements in pumps. You came

21 along and suggested extended product, and I think

22 the energy efficiency group all agreed that's a
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1 great idea and we ought to pursue it. But we have

2 to remember two things about it.

3 One, it's only available as a pathway

4 where pumps are sold with motors and maybe

5 controls. And second, the notion that the motor

6 makers make the motors and they're already

7 regulated isn't very much of a limitation because

8 the variable speed motors really aren't regulated

9 at this point. And, and you can incorporate that

10 variable speed motor and drive as a part of your

11 product and have it produce savings that go well

12 beyond what the motor makers might be able to do

13 by themselves because they're already regulated

14 for their single speed products.

15 So, so there is a big opportunity there.

16 It's limited to pumps that are sold with motors

17 and maybe drives.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I have a comment from

19 someone who's joined us online. Al Iseppon says

20 the mark-ups shown in the latest presentation look

21 very high. Since most boardrooms will not accept

22 reductions on ROI, does the analysis reflect the
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1 cost reductions per a head count plus outsourcing,

2 development offshore to recover the conversion

3 costs? Is this considered in the economic impact

4 study? Chris Lau.

5 Mr. LAU: This is Chris Lau now. So

6 two things. What we didn't present today is an

7 employment analysis. But I'll give a summary of

8 how that typically works. What we look at is the

9 labor content of a product. For this rulemaking,

10 since the MPC does not change, that labor content

11 does not change. So employment would be driven -

12 would be -- employment would be stable as long as

13 shipments are stable.

14 Now we often also do a lower bound. It

15 would probably involve more discussions with the

16 folks in the room today about changes in

17 production capacity or decisions about relocating

18 existing production facilities. But that, the

19 lower bound can say, be a more qualitative

20 analysis.

21 Mr. BROOKMAN: Okay. Dan Delaney.

22 MR. DELANEY: So just a couple
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1 thoughts. Excuse me. Dan Delaney from Regal.

2 Back to Mark. You made some comments about the

3 motor manufacturers. You know, the scope of the

4 product that's been provided for most of these

5 pumps have been essentially out of the scope for

6 EISA. So most of the close- coupled pump, many of

7 the vertical pump, all that stuff has been special

8 modification whether mechanical, shaft, other,

9 right? So that will be coming in to play 2016.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Definitely

11 (inaudible) shaft stuff.

12 MR. DELANEY: Yeah. So definitely

13 you're going to see a huge influx of that. So I

14 think you're going to find --

15 MR. HANDZEL: Dan, I'm sorry to just

16 interrupt you.

17 MR. DELANEY: Yeah. Sure. Go ahead.

18 MR. HANDZEL: But obviously for those

19 of us in the commercial building space, our

20 consulting engineers who design HVAC systems don't

21 know the difference between those regulations.

22 Their spec says I want premium efficiency motors
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1 for all motors coming into the mechanical system.

2 MR. DELANEY: Sure.

3 MR. HANDZEL: So you are providing me

4 a premium efficiency motor even though you are not

5 regulated to do it in that case.

6 MR. DELANEY: Right. And I would

7 agree that there is a good number of that product

8 that is at the -- it's hard to quantify that.

9 I'll tell you that right now. I think if we look

10 across what the industry is and who thinks they're

11 getting premium product, who really is getting

12 premium, I think you'd be surprised too what

13 you're actually getting. Regardless, 2016 forward,

14 you'll have that product essentially. That's what

15 we're talking about as a baseline there.

16 So what you're at today, where you'll be

17 at in two years, I think we'll be pretty safe to

18 say we'll be at the NEMA Table 1212 or for the

19 IEC's IE3. Second, we talked about extended

20 product, and certainly I support that. Certainly

21 support a growth of having more discussion. There

22 is obviously a lot of efforts going on globally
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1 there.

2 We talk about the Europump and the

3 activities there. That spurred the creation of

4 the first extended product approach called EN

5 50598. That's a series of standards that the

6 CENELEC team developed through European motor

7 manufacturers where they are developing a motor, a

8 motor drive, and then obviously a system

9 efficiency. So Euro pump is the model in which

10 they're using it. It's kind of a three-part

11 series.

12 So it'll have motor for use on drives,

13 efficiency levels dedicated, drive efficiency

14 levels, and then a system methodology of how many

15 points you test to validate that system with

16 whether a gear box whether a pump, fan, whatever.

17 Right? So it will be regardless of the un-driven

18 system or the philosophy how to do that.

19 Right now I participate in a new working

20 group where we are now taking the EN 50598 because

21 that was really just -- that's part of the Dresden

22 agreement says, look, when you develop an
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1 efficient -- I'm sorry. When you develop a

2 standard for European requirements, it's forced

3 and required to be considered for an IEC. So as

4 part of that Dresden we are officially, you know,

5 going to make this IEC, which it will make it more

6 of a global standard which is opportunity, you

7 know, US drive, US motor manufacturers are

8 participating in that, in that center now.

9 The reason I bring all that whole thing

10 up is we could look at a same effort to validate

11 the extended product approach, but a two-part PER

12 level maybe. Maybe that's an approach we want to

13 look at. So for example, if it's just pump only,

14 maybe it has a higher PER or lower, whichever,

15 right? And then a motor drive system maybe has a

16 different PER level. Right?

17 So maybe a two-pronged approach where

18 you try to emphasize the growth whichever way we

19 want it to go. That's certainly a precedence in

20 Europe right now. Fixed speed motors have higher

21 efficiency levels versus motors with fixed speeds.

22 That's what drove the creation of the 50598
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1 extended product trying to develop standards now

2 that justifies why you can have components at

3 lower efficiency levels, because the system is

4 much more efficient together.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Put them all together

6 and they operate effectively.

7 MR. DELANEY: Yeah. But only if you

8 have a method by which you do that properly. So

9 my point in bringing this up is, there is a

10 structure there. It's not like we'd be starting

11 from scratch. It's fairly well-developed, but

12 obviously it's going to take its one, two-year

13 path. I think it is definitely on a fast track.

14 So most IEC standards are three years or more.

15 This one will probably occur under two years.

16 But nonetheless, 50598 is a structure

17 that's already out there as a draft. It will be

18 actually voted on, I think, in the next few months

19 and will become the first two series. The motor

20 and the motor drive will be released pretty soon

21 with the philosophy of the system.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And what you
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1 described, it encompasses the full-extended

2 product?

3 MR. DELANEY: That's correct. Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve

5 Rosenstock.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

7 EEI. They're also developing standardized test

8 procedures for those products?

9 MR. DELANEY: So, yes. As a result

10 of having -- this is Dan Delaney from Regal. As a

11 result of having to have efficiency levels, the

12 mandated test standards are within these documents

13 as well. So not only does it have efficiency

14 levels, it also has the test procedure within it

15 as well.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve

17 Rosenstock, EEI. But right now they're in, I'll

18 say, a draft stage?

19 MR. DELANEY: They're in a draft

20 stage, but remember, the CENELEC EN version is

21 what will be released first. The IEC is basically

22 piggybacking on their work. So it depends.
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1 Right? They'll be an EN standard pretty soon, in

2 2014. That will be voted and approved as a, we'll

3 call, a national standard, right, over Europe,

4 European standard. That'll be one to be used.

5 IEC will not probably lag terribly far

6 behind. I can't tell you if it's 12 months or

7 more.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve, again, Steve

9 Rosenstock, EEI. So the timeframe is like, within

10 like 6 to 12 months?

11 MR. DELANEY: So 2014 I think you'll

12 see the 505, the EN versions released, and then I

13 would hope by the end of 2015 you would see the

14 IEC comparable versions. Yes.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So again, we're

16 talking end of 2014 and then end of 2015?

17 MR. DELANEY: I think that's pretty

18 comfortable. Yeah. Yeah -- dates.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just in terms of our

21 timeframe. That's why I was asking.

22 MR. DELANEY: Yeah.
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1 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. So I think

2 I agree with you, Mark, in that the, you know, the

3 intent of a standard developed as part of this

4 rule making by itself is to encourage or to get

5 improvements in bare pump efficiency and to make,

6 as you said, Charlie, the effort that's gone into

7 the development of the metric, where I think we

8 want to make sure the combination of the

9 information from -- or some combination of the

10 metric, label, information certification database

11 really provides utilities and other efficiency

12 program administration, administrators with the

13 information that they need to run successful

14 programs to hopefully increase the market share of

15 extended products.

16 So I look forward to the discussion

17 tomorrow and hope we can continue to think about

18 what is information that we, you know, we want to

19 make sure it comes out of this.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: So this is Charlie

22 Cappellino. So, Joanna, you just mentioned
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1 labeling and potential benefits of that. Gary

2 mentioned it. I know Lucas has mentioned it

3 before. Is that something that can translate into

4 the analysis that the DOE does or not? Or is that

5 -- in other words, (inaudible) program, it will

6 promote a certain amount of energy savings. And

7 it would be included in, you know, the number of

8 quads that you save and everything else.

9 I'm not promoting that as an idea. I am

10 just curious. Is that something that you would

11 typically consider or not?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

13 MR: ADIN: I mean effectively that

14 would be estimating the impacts of a labeling

15 program, and we don't normally do that as part of

16 a rule. You know, I mean --

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm not promoting

18 the idea. I'm just trying --

19 MR. ADIN: Right. I mean it would be

20 nice to know what the prospective energy savings

21 might be as a result of consumer choices made on

22 the basis of those labels. I mean it would be a
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1 good way to quantify the perspective impact, but -

2 -

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm trying to recall

4 the conversation we had on this previously, and

5 having just read these transcripts a couple of

6 times, it seems like we were saying that on any

7 level, label, there would be a figure on there

8 that would be the standard, but there would be

9 options to put other pieces of information on

10 there as well.

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought that's what

13 that conversation was. But I'm looking to the

14 young folks on the side of the room that might

15 have a better memory.

16 MS. WIDDER: That was my

17 understanding of where we left the last

18 discussion. And we'll revisit that again

19 tomorrow, but then as long as the standard was on

20 the label --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And clear. Yeah.

22 MS. WIDDER: -- and other metrics
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1 could also be provided as information. In terms

2 of doing the analysis, I think the problem we

3 always run into is lack of data.

4 MR. ADIN: Right. I mean --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: We have no idea how

6 consumers would react to a label essentially.

7 MR. ADIN: Right. Right. Right. We

8 would have to speculate about all those choices.

9 So --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

11 MR: ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

12 EEI. With other rules, whether it's either

13 proposed or (inaudible), there have been rules

14 where there has been analysis of non-regulatory

15 approaches. It depends on the rule, obviously,

16 but there have -- again, but again, it's a side

17 analysis basically.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But it --

20 MS WILLIAMS: We do -- we're required

21 to do a --

22 MS. WIDDER: Regulatory impact
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1 analysis where we look at other options besides

2 setting standards.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Now is that --

4 Steve Rosenstock, EEI. Is that in the proposed

5 full stage or the final stage?

6 MS. KOHL: It follows. But I mean it

7 starts -- this is Betsy Kohl. It starts with a

8 proposal (inaudible).

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So --

11 MS. WIDDER: I don't know that even

12 there we have data.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I was going to say, in

14 general I'm not absolutely sure about the labeling

15 system fully, but the level of detail in those

16 analyses is much less.

17 MS. WIDDER: Very sparse.

18 MR: WILLIAMS: Yeah.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Let me

21 go back to Charlie's comment that sort of drove

22 this whole discussion. If somebody else is going
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1 to claim credit for the savings, you know, you

2 suggested might a component of this effort be some

3 sort of analysis of what a label does or doesn't

4 do. Well then we can't.

5 So if we're going to develop rebating

6 programs that, you know, drive off a labeling

7 scheme that shows difference, or for that matter

8 even a test and measurement scheme that

9 illustrates differences in performance, if

10 somebody else claims credit for that, we can't for

11 rebate programs. So I think where the savings go

12 from these two approaches need to be separated.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: So -- this is

14 Charlie. So you're saying if some other

15 organization independent of this wanted to take

16 this concept and idea and develop a rebate program

17 around that, they could only do that if it wasn't

18 included in the DOE analysis? Is that what you're

19 saying?

20 MS. BROOKMAN: However, if I'm not

21 mistaken

22 --
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: He's trying to

2 repeat --

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is - this

4 is Gary. I'm not directly answering your question

5 because you phrased it with respect to the

6 analysis. So I don't think DOE analyzing,

7 irrespective of how difficult it may be, what that

8 impact might be, would be preventative. But if

9 DOE claims it ordered the label and therefore the

10 savings associated with it are part of the

11 national impact, then we couldn't simultaneously.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: It would be counting -

13 -

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I thought you were

15 allowed to claim credit for your participation in

16 the codes and standards rule making, so.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, we do. We do

18 through that channel, but that's separate from

19 what we do with our rebate program and so forth.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: (Inaudible)

21 utilities in California.

22 MS. WIDDER: And this is also a
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1 discussion that we're going to have tomorrow

2 during the standard versus label. I have a slide

3 where, I mean it's mostly to spur discussion like

4 this, but about how utilities might use this

5 standard to achieve and meet conservation goals

6 just like Gary is talking about that wouldn't

7 necessarily be accounted for in the rule making.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. With

9 that, maybe we'll just wait on that then because

10 I've got a pretty clear recollection of that

11 conversation that happened at our last meeting.

12 So I'll just wait rather than get out of my depth

13 right now. Mark?

14 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

15 So when is the CV discussion?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: CV?

17 MS. WIDDER: What?

18 MR. HANDZEL: When we're going to

19 talk about the C factor. Sorry.

20 MR. WILLIAMS: C value.

21 MR. HANDZEL: C value. Sorry. I got

22 vowels on the mind. Sorry. The C-factor, I mean
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1 --

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: We're ready to get

3 there. So it's ready when we're -- just move past

4 this and, this discussion.

5 MR. HANDZEL: It feels like we're

6 running out of stuff for today. So I just --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: We don't want to - no.

8 I mean what we want is for you guys to like

9 negotiate. Right? So if having the C value

10 discussion will help you negotiate, we can have

11 the C value discussion.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Well, it's --

13 MS. WIDDER: We can also have the

14 discussion on labeling right now. I mean those

15 slides are ready too.

16 MR. HANDZEL: I mean I'll just say I

17 would rather have the C value discussion just

18 because it's more -- I think it impacts some stuff

19 and we had some concerns about it. So --

20 MS. BROOKMAN: We can do that now.

21 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. I think that
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1 would be a good thing.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we need a five

3 minute break? Or should we just launch into it?

4 (SESSION BREAK)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's start. Let's

6 start back. Okay. Dan Weintraub I notice sitting

7 there ready to present.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Thank you, Doug. All

9 right. So we're going to start the discussion on C

10 values when I get everyone's attention. All

11 right. So we're starting to talk about C values

12 here. So I have two presentations that I'm going

13 to go through.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: How many slides

15 approximately?

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Not that many. Maybe

17 20 or so.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: It's a lot of looking

20 at graphs.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Because this is all
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1 visual data that we need to understand. So two

2 presentations we're going to go through. The one

3 we're doing first is comparing the PER C values of

4 the DOE dataset, the one that Navigant collected

5 under NDA on our own versus the data, the C values

6 of the dataset collected by HI. So we'll see how

7 far apart those datasets are.

8 The next one that we're going to go to

9 is going to give you a view of how the EU's MEI

10 compares to the US MEI because EU doesn't have

11 PER, so we can't use that as a benchmark. So

12 it'll show you the relative efficiencies of the

13 marketplace.

14 So we'll start with the PER version. It

15 should be fairly straightforward. All right. So

16 the introduction -- using the PER metrics, C

17 values are used to define each efficiency level

18 for each equipment class. So I think we're pretty

19 all - we're all fairly set on that.

20 So at this time we have developed PER C

21 values at each efficiency level from both the HI

22 dataset and the DOE dataset. The eventual plan is
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1 to get these merged. We're still in the process

2 of that. But being able to show you guys the DOE

3 and the HI will show you that obviously we're

4 going to be somewhere in-between when we finish

5 this.

6 So the following slides will present and

7 compare the current DOE and HI PER C values. Some

8 notes on what you're going to be looking at. So

9 end suction and inline DOE C values have not

10 changed since the last meetings. They're exactly

11 as presented on the screen, and we haven't changed

12 our data, so there's no difference.

13 Based on preliminary feedback, we're not

14 presenting C values for four-pole submersible

15 vertical turbine equipment class. That's a

16 separate topic we're going to need to agree upon

17 as a group. But we've so far said there's really

18 not a market for that, and we're not looking to

19 regulate it, but we have to get an agreement from

20 the group.

21 PER C values for RS-Vs have currently

22 been established by shifting the EU Lot 11 MEI C
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1 values by -.524 points. That's a whole separate

2 discussion also that we're going to have. So

3 we'll worry about that later. And that's, again,

4 trying to sync up the EU and the US, but we're

5 going to focus on the end suction, inline, and

6 vertical turbine datasets.

7 So this is for you when you get this

8 set. These numbers don't -- you don't need to look

9 at them. But just so you have the numbers in front

10 of you, and when it's digital, these are tables

11 that you can pull numbers out of. So this is for

12 when you have it in front of you.

13 Now we're going to get into the charts.

14 Okay. So here we have comparison of DOE and HI

15 data set. End suction close coupled is 1,800. In

16 red we have the HI data.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: That's pretty good.

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: So HI C values. In

19 blue we have the DOE data. So these charts are

20 all going to be the same going on, but on the X21 axis we have PER level. Center point P is the PER

22 level. On the Y- axis we have the C value for the
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1 PER. So this is going to represent what the

2 cutoff would be at each level. So for this

3 equipment class -- oh, one more thing to put in

4 perspective. So the HI data -- how we got this HI

5 data.

6 So the DOE data we had pump -- pump

7 performance data. We knew how every pump

8 performed. We could calculate exactly the C value

9 that you could pump with -- the C value that would

10 cutoff 10% of that population that we had at 0.5%.

11 HI, you guys had your database. We were not able

12 to have our hands on individual performance data.

13 We had to have it aggregated.

14 So what Alison and I did as part of this

15 was we asked for C values to be calculated, C

16 value that a pump would fail at. We calculated

17 it. And then we had them tabulate pivot tables

18 for us that basically said, summarized, and we

19 used groupings of half points. So C value of,

20 ranging from 150 to 110. And we know that the C

21 values generally fall between 120 and 140. At

22 each increment, how many pumps failed.
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1 And so we had this table, we run down

2 that line, and we had to interpolate between, over

3 that bucket of pump efficiency points. So that's

4 the level of accuracy, is about half an

5 inefficiency point of the HI data. I actually

6 think we're going to have more granular and

7 accurate data with the merge data set once that

8 comes out.

9 But right now it's fairly accurate, and

10 it's fairly close because it was calculated,

11 tabulated, and then we used that tabulated data to

12 find where the cutoff should be for the HI.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

15 So the merged data set, I assume you would know

16 which data is duplicate?

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. That's what

18 we're working on this.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: It's what's taking so

20 long, actually, because we had to get binned data

21 from HI, and so we're grouping our own data in the

22 same bins, and then trying to --
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: That's the intent.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: That's the intent.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: That's the intent.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: But this is also

5 going to show you that we're not going to change -

6 - it's not going to be very far off --

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right. You are

8 going to end up somewhere in between --

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: You can see, yeah,

10 these are really close within the ROV HI data that

11 I have, at least for this one. Some of them are

12 larger. We'll get there. But you can see there's

13 -- so for this particular class, not much

14 difference. You are going to see as a trend, I'm

15 going to go through all of them, HI will be

16 slightly less efficient. We'll show a population

17 being slightly less efficient than our dataset.

18 So the next one, close-couple 3600. You

19 see the gap there a little bit. We're still not

20 even -- we're still probably around half a point

21 on average.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, pardon me for
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1 interrupting.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: You said that the DOE

4 dataset is based on the Navigant interviews?

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: It's based on the

6 survey that Navigant and LBNL put out, the last

7 survey, which was actually the same survey that HI

8 did except for that we got the data directly

9 handed to us under confidentiality agreement.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: So here you see an

12 equipment class where there's a larger range.

13 It's still, it's about a point here, and these are

14 the point differences. A little bit higher at the

15 low end. So this one is more. There's a larger

16 discrepancy. But again, a merged dataset, if we

17 can get there, would be somewhere in between. But

18 again, it's one point. We're looking at about a

19 point between.

20 At 3600, it closes back down again. The

21 trend continues. So inline, actually they're

22 right on, very close. And actually we had a very
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1 similar number of models in the datasets, so we

2 think we probably had similar pumps. Here, very

3 close. It opens up over the 25 and 40 and comes

4 back together. Again, pretty close overall.

5 Vertical turbines, very different

6 actually. So here you see the lines have flipped,

7 and the DOE dataset is less efficient than the HI

8 dataset. I can't explain that other than

9 different pumps in the population. I really --

10 we, you know, we only know what we know. We're

11 given a blind dataset from HI.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: The only thing we are

13 checking as we merge them is that some

14 manufacturers did appear to make changes to their

15 data from between when they gave it to us and when

16 they gave it to HI, including changes in

17 efficiency. So we will look at that too because

18 there could be some implications of that.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. So, yeah. But

20 overall we don't - we only know what we have. And

21 then we have blind data from HI. So, yeah, this

22 is the gist of it. You can see in the bulk of the
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1 equipment class, is very close. That's, you know,

2 your data, our data -- same, same apples.

3 Are there any questions about this? I

4 mean, this is, yeah, this is over all the gist.

5 And I've summarized at the end how they vary. And

6 actually I was originally going to give the MEI

7 presentation, but, so there's some reference to

8 MEI in here, which doesn't make sense yet. But

9 I've summarized the deltas. So between HI and

10 DOE, so for your reference.

11 End suction close couple, DOE C values

12 are consistently more efficient by an average of

13 half a point. Frame-mounted consistently more

14 efficient by 1.1 efficiency points. Inline

15 consistently more efficient by an average of .25

16 efficiency points. And then VT-S, it's flipped

17 where DOE is less efficient by an average of .7

18 points. So those values put it in perspective of

19 the magnitude of the delta (inaudible).

20 And where the middle ground falls I

21 don't know yet, but we hope to be able to figure

22 that out. And in the absence of even being able to
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1 figure it out, that is still something that can be

2 negotiated on. You guys can try and work to where

3 that middle ground should be between your data and

4 DOE's data.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Again, so these C

6 values, we're just, as you requested, trying to

7 cut off 10% of pumps or 25% or whatever. So

8 really the efficiency levels that you negotiated

9 can be anything you want. We're just trying to be

10 consistent with what was desired. So, yeah.

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. So this --

12 these conclusions, there's not that -- these

13 relate tying back to the presentation I'm going to

14 give next. So this is what we have for these two

15 datasets. Are there any questions on them?

16 MR. BARBOUR: Robert Barbour with

17 TACO. Did you take the aggregate data and put it

18 into the spreadsheet and just see how the

19 percentages worked out with the different pump

20 classes?

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

22 MR. BARBOUR: And did you come out to
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1 the 40 and the 20 and the --

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. Yeah. It

3 comes back out. It does. The aggregate data --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? You have a --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Mark from Xylem. I

6 guess I am just trying to understand how we could

7 both use the same data and come up with different

8 answers.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: But you don't have the

10 whole dataset. Right? Or have you guys

11 calculated --

12 MR. HANDZEL: The data that -- Greg,

13 maybe you can answer this. Does the C values that

14 we're using, were they recalculated with the

15 latest dataset? Or are they still based on the

16 submission from a year- and-a-half ago?

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: So, we can let Greg

18 answer. But --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case -- you

20 there?

21 MR. CASE: I am. No, the latest C

22 values that were put out were based on the latest
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1 survey --

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: And what --

3 MR. CASE: -- related by (inaudible).

4 MS. WILLIAMS: They're MEIs. Right.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: They're MEIs. So put

6 that in perspective of what you guys submitted via

7 spreadsheet in April, were MEI C values.

8 MR. CASE: That's correct.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, we put together

10 our spreadsheets and had NEMA BIS populate our

11 spreadsheets based on your data to give us PER C

12 values consistent with a calculation method used

13 for our PER C values. I'll actually be comparing

14 your MEI values on the other one. That's what

15 Greg -- that's what you guys provided in a

16 spreadsheet to us. But these C values for PER, if

17 you drop our dataset in there, and you get the

18 aggregated dropouts like we did yesterday.

19 MR. HANDZEL: So you just kind of --

20 so just summarizing it, you backed into it a

21 different way than what you did. I mean that's

22 why we're seeing some differences. You calculated
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1 it --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: It's a different --

3 well, maybe you should do the MEI deck now. I

4 don't -- like you don't get exactly the same C

5 value if you do it by MEI as if you do it by PER.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: And that's inherent,

8 is that they're different -- there's an MEI C

9 value and a PER C value. They are different

10 things because they represent different things.

11 So I think -- yeah, let's go to the MEIs.

12 MR. HANDZEL: We didn't have PER when

13 --

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: No, you didn't have -

15 - exactly. You did not have PER. And that's why

16 we requested that data based off your data. If we

17 would have done it -- if we were able to get the

18 aggregate data set from NEMA BIS, we would have

19 done it identically, our data, your data, same

20 method. But we came very close by having them

21 calculate it in an aggregated form. Okay. All

22 right.
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1 So on to MEI. Okay. So the working

2 group - - so introduction here to why we are

3 looking at this. I think we all know, but the

4 Working Group expressed concerns with the C

5 values. So the following slides evaluate the

6 relative efficiency of the US and the EU

7 populations by comparing the MEI C values from the

8 DOE US dataset -- that's our dataset -- the

9 Navigant LBNL, the HI US dataset, and the EU Lot

10 11 dataset.

11 So MEI C values are used here, again,

12 because it's not possible to calculate PER from

13 the EU data. So we want to go apples to apples.

14 What's the efficiency of the EU population versus

15 the efficiency of the US population?

16 Here we're actually presenting two sets

17 of HI values. So you guys gave to us those C

18 values. And then we also had NEMA BIS calculate

19 them using our spreadsheets too. And we don't

20 know what NEMA BIS' method was. We do know what

21 our method was, and we do know what filtering went

22 on with our method. So we have both. They're
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1 fairly close, but there is discrepancies. We're

2 going to work through there. But I think it's all

3 bounding.

4 The US dataset is still kind of locked

5 together within a level of variability. So again,

6 DOE and HI datasets are in the process of being

7 merged, So we're going to present two- and four8 pole results for end suction close couple, frame9 mounted, inline, and VT-S. Yes. Okay.

10 So first one here. So here, a very

11 similar chart. X-axis is our MEI levels. Again,

12 cutoff percentages. Y-axis is C values for MEI.

13 So here we have a couple different lines. So the

14 first and the easiest, green, greenish-yellow,

15 that's the EU. That's what's published. So EU in

16 their standard only published 10 -- MEI 10 and 40,

17 but in the preparatory study they published a lot

18 of numbers. So that's what that's from. And they

19 line up with what the EU used in their standard

20 benchmark.

21 So this is what the EU marketplace is.

22 Here, blue is our dataset calculated using like
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1 the methods that we discussed earlier. Now we

2 have two HI lines. The solid red line, HI NEMA

3 calc, so that's what you guys just gave to us.

4 And NEMA calc is what you guys gave to us

5 directly. Greg Case got that for us.

6 We had the data put through our

7 spreadsheets and calculated, used the bin data to

8 calculate C values. That came out to these dotted

9 lines. So there is a slight discrepancy between

10 them. We honestly don't know why. We've double

11 checked and triple checked ours. So there is --

12 we can't account for why those numbers went up

13 differently. It could be that data was filtered

14 differently.

15 One of the reason we'd know, which I

16 highlighted here, should not make a difference,

17 but we checked it, was that one of our filtering

18 processes was -- it had a C value of failing below

19 110, which means extremely, extremely efficient.

20 We threw it out because it can't be there. It's

21 just -- it's bad data.

22 Same thing above 150. The odds of a
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1 real pump being on the marketplace, being out

2 there was beyond the realm of what the EU data

3 showed it to be part of the population.

4 So we weren't considering those. But

5 one above and one below, models, it's not going to

6 skew your data everywhere. But I wanted to -- I

7 wanted to at least investigate it. So the general

8 conclusion, though, putting the discrepancies

9 aside, is the EU is less efficient. The EU

10 population of data -- that data there now sounds

11 less efficient than the population of data that we

12 have in our hand that's supposed to represent the

13 US market. That's -- for this, for end suction

14 close couple 1800.

15 So that's why and, you know, some of

16 those questions were early on before this whole

17 thing started. We put in exactly what we asked

18 for in our interview guide, was, you know, base

19 your decision, base your costs on how many pumps

20 fall out using MEI data with the EU. So now we

21 know that the EU -- MEI 10 with the EU is

22 different than MEI 10 in the US. So again --
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1 yeah?

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Dan, this is

3 Charlie. MEI 10 you're saying is different --

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: I'm sorry. Here it's

5 about the same. Yeah. Bad example. MEI 20, 25

6 is different. Bad example. Yeah. So that's the

7 gist here. And we can either -- if we have

8 questions now, or I can walk through what the

9 different ones look like, but you're going to see

10 similar trends.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's take questions

12 here.

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Should there be any.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah?

16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

17 Just a clarifying statement. So EU pumps are less

18 efficient, or the flip side, ours are more

19 efficient in the US?

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Exactly. Yeah.

21 Yeah. And, you know, this could be for a variety

22 of reasons. We've listed a summary at the end. It
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1 could be the fact that the EU data was older. You

2 know, they published the study, the preparatory

3 study for the Lot 11 in 2007. That data was even

4 older. I don't know the providence of that data.

5 It was older.

6 So there's been a time lag. That could

7 be part of it. That's just speculation. We could

8 be seeing effects from the EU regulation that, you

9 know, we know that there's some cross talk between

10 the markets. We know that they don't completely

11 cross talk. We know that there's some. So

12 there's very different things.

13 And the reason we went about the

14 approach of setting our own C values was that when

15 the manufacturers came in with their initial

16 proposal, was you guys worked to tweak your C

17 values to meet the cutoffs. Now of course you can

18 set your C values wherever you want as a group to

19 decide, or you can set where you want the standard

20 to be. I just want everyone to be informed of how

21 it relates to the EU. And that's why we're giving

22 this presentation.
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1 And actually there'll be a

2 crosswalk at the end, which is kind of

3 complicated, but once you grasp it, you'll see

4 what a level of 25, when you cut out 25% of the US

5 pumps, what does that equate to in the

6 EU?

7 So you can see. Is that MEI reporting

8 in the EU? Is it MEI 55? So we'll get there.

9 But it's just this whole presentation here is to

10 inform you guys of how our data and our market

11 compares to the EU. So just -- we're just going

12 to go through them, and you'll see, again, you'll

13 see the discrepancy between the red, the two red

14 lines and the blue. But they stay together in

15 general. And again, less efficient where we're

16 more efficient.

17 Here frame-mounted things get a little

18 closer. Less so than the delta. Again, staying

19 closer together. Inline, so this is one where you

20 see a huge difference. And our data, HI data and

21 DOE data is saying the same thing. It's all lined

22 up. And this is what the EU used. So why? I
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1 can't tell you, but there's a difference.

2 Same thing. Not as pronounced of a

3 difference at (inaudible) 3600, but there's a

4 difference.

5 So that's why you're going to see -- if

6 you were to plug in to MEI EU, you're plugging

7 your pumps into the MEI equation, the MEI C

8 values, you are going to see a whole lot more

9 pumps failing than you did when you first did it

10 with the EU values using our values. But again,

11 the industry on a whole in each one of the levels

12 with the C values that we provided previously will

13 still hit 10%, 25%, 40%, 50%, 55%, 70% of our

14 data.

15 VT-S, again, this one's the anomaly just

16 like before. The data is all over the place. You

17 know, we knew that the HI dataset and the DOE

18 datasets clicked. And here EU kind of cross-cuts

19 us. And I think EU had less of a range of

20 efficiencies effectively, but this is how it

21 compares. This is for you guys when you have this

22 in front of you. You can pull these into Excel.
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1 These are the C values that were just presented on

2 the screen in graphical format. You know, we don't

3 need to pour over it.

4 And then we just get into a summary,

5 which, you know, we've kind of gone through, but

6 this is just a summary of the deltas just like I

7 did before of how things differ. So here I'm

8 comparing the dotted red lines. So HI --

9 Navigant's calculations of the HI data to the EU,

10 and you just see how the percentage points differ.

11 Close couple, one point, on average a one point

12 efficiency difference. Frame-mounted, about the

13 same. Inline 2.25 points difference, which was

14 the big jump that we saw. VT-S with mixed

15 results.

16 And then the possible reasons that I

17 brought up earlier which are nothing more than

18 just possibilities because we can't -- we really

19 don't know the exact answer. But it just goes

20 through like -- it goes through this -- I don't

21 think I need to go through the numbers, but

22 they're here for you to think about when you have
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1 this in front of you, of just the differences

2 between the datasets summarized for you.

3 So one other thing. It's just really --

4 oh, so I'll get to the crosswalk. The other thing

5 is in this dataset -- so we looked at -- both

6 datasets have DOE C values and HI C values. And

7 those deltas, so the ones that we just did with

8 the PER C values, that delta is -- they are

9 effectively the same. So the datasets are

10 consistent moving from C value, from PER to MEI.

11 HI's data is consistently slightly less

12 efficient than DOE's data in both of these charts

13 that we've just been looking at. So there's

14 consistency amongst the calculations, consistency

15 amongst the methods. So with that, now with

16 crosswalk again. This is stuff for you guys to

17 take back and think about.

18 Here, the background here of why we're

19 doing this. With certain brands and products sold

20 in both the EU and the US, it's important to

21 understand how the proposed US standard levels

22 compare to the existing EU Lot 11 standard level.
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1 So the crosswalk we have developed shows

2 what percentage of the EU market would be cut off

3 at a given US proposed efficiency level. So

4 currently we have two crosswalks, one crossing the

5 DOE data to the EU. And the other one crossing

6 the HI data to the EU. And if we can get this

7 merge completed, there'll be one crosswalk when we

8 can agree on C values. And so the results are

9 approximate just by the way of the method it was

10 done. They're approximate. They're to get you in

11 the ballpark.

12 So what we have here, on the top I've

13 listed these PER levels. You know, our efficiency

14 levels that we've been looking at the whole way,

15 10, 25, 40, 55, 70. So for example, the C values

16 that cause 10% of the US models to fail, that

17 would be this column, 10% of the US models

18 failing. In this case of end suction close couple

19 3600, would actually cause 22% of the EU models to

20 fail. So that's the comparison. And it goes like

21 that for all of these.

22 So here, close couple, we actually noted
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1 this earlier, PER 10 was pretty close. So 10% of

2 the US models fail; 11% of the EU models fail.

3 You get out here, and I cut it off at 70 because

4 that's where -- what is it? Seventy, because

5 that's where the EU stopped their analysis. There

6 we go. Thank you. So it maxes out at 70. So

7 this is, again, it's something to take away and

8 think about. There's not much of a discussion.

9 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, again. So

10 PER 40, am I reading that is equivalent to, in a

11 European market, a 50?

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Picking up 50% of the

13 European market. If we were to set a standard and

14 the EU were to have to comply with it, it would

15 take out 50% of their market. But again, that's

16 the market as defined by the EU pre-2007, not the

17 market as defined by the EU today.

18 MR. STARR: So those numbers would

19 probably adjust up --

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: That's, yeah, that

21 was one of the, you know, kind of possibilities of

22 why these --
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1 MR. STARR: So the EU standard,

2 though, that they're expecting to meet by 2015

3 would be the 2007 data? Right?

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Yeah. And that

5 would - - so that's going to be MEI 40. So this

6 puts it in perspective. So this specific one, US

7 to EU using -- oh, this gives me HI data. And

8 then there's just another one that does the same

9 thing using the DOE data. I'm sorry. I think I

10 switched -- I guess I must have switched numbers

11 of the key. So this one's HI data. The previous

12 one is the crosswalk from DOE data.

13 And you can take those back and look at

14 them. That's the gist of this. Are there more

15 questions on this?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

18 ITT. Dan, have you ever plotted the C value curves

19 for each of the equipment classes on the same

20 chart so you can compare, for example, what inline

21 C value looks like as compared to an end suction

22 frame-mounted or end suction close couple?
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes, I have. So I'll

2 pull the data up just so I can talk to you a

3 little more accurately, but there are definitely

4 trends. You won't be able to see the data, but

5 I'll be able to talk to it because it's small. In

6 general, C values for like speeds, so we'll start

7 with four-pole. End suction close couple and end

8 suction frame mounted C values are extremely

9 close. They're generally the same (inaudible)

10 very similar (inaudible). Same thing, 36 to 36.

11 Inline then takes a jump of decreased

12 efficiency following the same trends because they

13 got extra losses in there. It's barely -- and

14 when we look at it, it's -- when you want to look

15 at how the trends are going, it's really within

16 the center, within the bulk, the meat of the bell

17 curve, 25, 40, 50, 70, is where they all kind of

18 run parallel, just skewed up and down.

19 Things get a little off the curve

20 because of the outliers when you get down to the

21 10% because you have pumps that are failing, but

22 are really, really failed and skewing things. But
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1 yeah, for these really, the end suction and

2 inline, they all follow the same trends when it

3 comes to it. And in general, for end suction and

4 inline, if you're looking at the distribution of

5 efficiencies as defined by C value because C value

6 normalizes everything, they're normal. They're

7 very close to normal where you're going to have a

8 bell curve centered around the median or the mean.

9 Yeah. That's just -- they're very close. The

10 distribution is very close.

11 The only time you get off of normal is

12 at the tails because things start to spread a

13 little bit further than normal distribution but

14 really go with. But I looked at that numerous

15 times along the way. I can't really talk to

16 vertical turbines. We have less data on --

17 actually they're not so normal, vertical turbines,

18 but we also don't have a ton of data.

19 And RS-V we have no data or effectively

20 no data to talk about how those work. So I can't

21 compare those (inaudible). Other questions? All

22 right.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Dan.

2 These slides --

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Get them out. Yeah.

4 We'll get them out at the end of the day.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark. You

6 start. You looked like you wanted to say

7 something.

8 MR. HANDZEL: No. No.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: As Alison said

10 earlier, she just wants you to start negotiating.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Why don't we look at

12 the agenda, the agenda where we are.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good idea.

14 Can we - - can we pull that back up? It does

15 occur to me --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: The agenda involves

17 large amounts of time for caucusing and

18 negotiation.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

20 MR. HANDZEL: I think we're in that

21 part now.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Hardly any of which
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1 has been used so far.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: It does occur to me

3 that there are several elements or dimensions that

4 could be a part of each caucus's or each

5 individual's thought process, about how a proposal

6 that works for everybody in the room, how that

7 might come together. Several different pieces or

8 things that can be balanced and counterbalanced.

9 And so my thought process -- can we pull

10 up the agenda? Would be that you're frequently

11 better off in a complicated, multi-lateral

12 negotiation thinking about a variety of factors

13 that may be considered to arrive at a solution

14 than narrowly casting this at the outset.

15 MR. ADIN: So we've done all that

16 stuff at the top. We're basically at the bottom.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Yeah.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: It's five hours.

19 MR. HANDZEL: We're at 1:30.

20 MR. ADIN: Right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And I was wondering

22 if, for example, some of you have had more
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1 experience doing --

2 MR. HANDZEL: Something.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: -- this sort of thing,

4 what would be the general -- what would be your

5 thoughts on sort of the general parameters or the

6 elements of a proposal that you would expect to

7 cover that would be satisfactory to either caucus?

8 MR. ECKMAN: You're looking at me.

9 So I must have something to say.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me do this, scan

11 the room here.

12 MR. ECKMAN: You know I -- I think

13 there's a time dimension to this because you have

14 conversion time and resource issues. In our minds

15 there's a harmonization with the EU issue that may

16 help minimize some of your costs or at least

17 eliminate duplication costs. And, you know, those

18 weigh in our ledger. Both of those are important

19 for you and us.

20 And there's, you know, the tradeoff

21 between the manufacturing impacts and the impacts

22 that consumers receive, which are pretty
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1 beneficial all the way out there, but get pretty

2 heavy lifting for you guys as we get in the 30 and

3 40% range. So we haven't settled on what this new

4 data does too in terms of the EU relationship.

5 So we need to think a little bit about

6 that in caucus. But, you know, I think all of

7 those dimensions -- the magnitude of the savings

8 we're talking about are not huge, but significant.

9 So we'd like to try and keep them in the

10 middle range there somewhere, but we haven't

11 decided exactly what that middle means. So I

12 don't know where you guys have talked with respect

13 to EU harmonization, with how big an issue that is

14 for most of the manufacturers, what the timeframe

15 questions might be in your mind in terms of, you

16 know, is 19 the date or is some other date

17 possible. Would you like a phase- in?

18 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I think, you know

19 -- Mark Handzel from Xylem. I think, you know,

20 it's certainly something that the phase-in, we

21 think, has merit and would help us. It's going to

22 have -- every one of us will assess it
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1 differently. Everyone will do something different

2 with it, but obviously we saw it in Europe. We

3 thought it went well in Europe, and I think, you

4 know, trying to speak for the industry, I think we

5 have an interest in trying to do it here.

6 So beyond that, I have to admit that our

7 group hasn't really started to talk about it

8 beyond that. And, you know, I mean, Doug, I would

9 almost probably suggest why don't we break for the

10 day and let us have some discussions and try to

11 come back in the morning. You know, and I think

12 we've got some good stuff to talk about in the

13 morning.

14 But I think, you know, we knew today

15 that we were just trying to take in a lot of data

16 and try to assess a lot of these questions. I

17 think -- I compliment the team back here. I think

18 they did a good job answering our questions, but I

19 think, you know, we still have more questions in

20 our mind now that are probably going to take us

21 beyond this meeting, you know, in terms of, you

22 know, being able to go further.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris, you had a

2 contribution?

3 MR. LAU: Oh, I just -- Chris Lau

4 from Navigant. I just wanted to just mention, and

5 I'm not exactly sure what ASRAC will allow us to

6 do, maybe what they're discussing, but there may

7 be constraints to flexibility in timeframe based

8 on the regulation. I just wasn't sure.

9 MS. KOHL: Sorry. We're having a

10 side bar. Can you repeat the question for us?

11 MR. LAU: Earlier in the discussion I

12 had mentioned that timeframe is something that may

13 make sense to negotiate, but I didn't know how

14 much flexibility the group had to negotiate the

15 timeframe of the standard.

16 MS. KOHL: Yeah. So, I mean our

17 understanding is that -- this is Betsy Kohl, DOE.

18 That there isn't really any -- I mean our reading

19 of the statute indicates that we have a five year

20 time lag, and we don't have statutory authority to

21 do this level in two years, and this level in

22 five, or this level in five, and this level in
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1 seven. The statutory authority for that, we don't

2 have any because that would be two standards.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, do you wish to

4 --

5 MR. STARR: No (inaudible).

6 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

7 Xylem. So, Betsy, I mean there -- what's -- so

8 once a rule making is put in place, I think we've

9 talked about before there's a standard DOE level

10 from when it comes back up and gets reviewed

11 again. Can you tell us what that timeframe is?

12 MS. KOHL: That's once within six

13 years. That's the timeframe.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Oh, so there's no real

15 set?

16 MS. KOHL: No.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

18 MS. KOHL: At some point within six

19 years.

20 MR. HANDZEL: So it's not dictated?

21 MS. KOHL: No.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Betsy, is this -- once

2 it's a rule the first time, is it three years

3 between? Or is it still?

4 MS. KOHL: Once it's -- oh, I think -

5 -

6 MR. ECKMAN: The first time it's

7 five, and then the next time it can be three? Is

8 that right? Or what?

9 MS. KOHL: I am not sure about that.

10 And we were only looking at it for this particular

11 rule making. But there is also in that once12 every-six-year review period, there is, I mean, we

13 -- I'm not sure what the actual time period is,

14 but we couldn't come back and say, okay, a year

15 from now there's other standards. There's a gap,

16 a required gap there too. So it's once within six

17 years we have to take a look, but there is a

18 backstop gap so it doesn't happen too fast.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And since I can't

20 recall -- I am aware of this, Dan, since extended

21 product represents an interesting potential

22 benefit side in this equation, what is the status
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1 of the test procedure on extended product?

2 MS. WIDDER: Do you mean like wire to

3 water? Or what do you mean by that?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I was just

5 thinking about any way that that would be --

6 MS. WIDDER: Like a physical test?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

8 MS. WIDDER: There are tests in

9 development. I don't think that there's available

10 test data sufficient for us to consider a test

11 procedure for those products at this point today.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is -- this

13 is Gary. You sort of outlined the methodology

14 part of it.

15 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So what would need to

17 be developed would -- I say simply. It may not be

18 that simple, but simply the detailed steps and the

19 equipment necessary. And industry does that kind

20 of development all the time. So in principle it

21 shouldn't be that difficult given some time to

22 work out the details to provide the information
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1 called for.

2 MS. WIDDER: I agree with that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney from Regal.

5 So I guess a couple aspects about that. The --

6 certainly we talked about a motor and a drive

7 stand. There's precedence out there certainly.

8 There's CA-38. There's a CSA standard release that

9 gives you precedence to do that. And you bring in

10 the driven equipment, the pump -- obviously I

11 don't know how well that would cooperate with the

12 HI test procedure. I'm not as familiar there.

13 But there's certainly procedures out

14 there in the industry that are available to help

15 you give guidelines. So it's not just having to

16 (inaudible). And one of the reference, you know,

17 just looking at the motor as we finished our

18 regulation, not to say that that's a terrible help

19 to this one, but what I think what was a big

20 assistance, obviously this is the third rule21 making we went through through the evolution of

22 starting back in '92 -- what was a big benefit for
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1 us as a motors group is we knew where we were at

2 as far as maturity of our product and the way we

3 were going.

4 And for us to give a very defined set of

5 requests I think was very helpful in having a

6 discussion around that. So I think that was one

7 of the big benefits, is having a very specific

8 position where we wanted to be from the motor end

9 to allow some of the negotiation discussion to

10 occur.

11 So that's a big help if manufacturers

12 who know their product best and know their

13 capabilities best to start with some kind of

14 guidance on that instead of others having to come

15 in and provide areas.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments here?

17 The proposal on the table is that we move towards

18 closure. Charlie?

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

20 So I am just making some notes here from what Tom

21 said and try to just split what's actually input

22 to the decision-making process and what decisions
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1 the group needs to make. And I don't know if I

2 got it right here, but kind of what I heard was

3 the manufacturing impact analysis's input, the

4 consumer analysis's input. One that I added in

5 here because I don't think we discussed it, but I

6 know there's been dialogue around it, is

7 enforcement.

8 I mean how do you enforce the

9 regulation? I mean we never really talked about

10 that much. And I don't know if that's inputted

11 into the decision or not.

12 But, I mean, I think, Dan, you mentioned

13 it to me in the hallway, that on the motor side of

14 it, that's been something that was part of the

15 decision- making process. Scope, well, let's see.

16 I think those were the -- the other one was, and I

17 keep bringing this up, but we haven't discussed it

18 yet either, is how do you commercially implement

19 this?

20 I mean the commercial implementation,

21 how do you go to the market? And I'd still like

22 to have a little more dialog around that as far
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1 as, because there's burden there as well, just so

2 we all understand it.

3 And as far as decisions, I had scope,

4 which we've already kind of conquered, I think,

5 right? Including the Lot 11 decision and a next

6 step of pool pumps and circulators, right? So

7 that's a decision, but I think we've got that one

8 in hand.

9 Another decision is the C values, right?

10 So we got to kind of come to some kind of grip on

11 that. The time element, is there a timing decision

12 or not? Or is that basically fixed? It's still

13 not clear to me based on the dialogue we've had.

14 Is there a timing decision to be made? Or is that

15 a done deal? In terms of when the regulation

16 would be effective for both the Lot 11 and the

17 circulator pool pump piece of it.

18

19

20

21 MR. BARBOUR: Can I just interject a

22 real quick question? Bob Barbour, TACO. I seem
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1 to recall from speaking to some of the advocates

2 that there were other rule makings that had a

3 phased-in type of an approach. And --

4 MS. KOHL: (Inaudible) agency,

5 Congress has given us some on clothes washers, for

6 example. We have had consensus agreements under

7 Section P4 of 6295 where that has occurred. But

8 we are not in that ball game here. So the general

9 statutory authority is there is no phased-in

10 effective dates. That's where we are with our

11 reading of the statute right now. I know it's not

12 popular in some corridors, but -- in all corridors

13 here, it sounds like.

14 MR. ADIN: Can I just ask a question?

15 I mean, is that -- would that determine the

16 outcome for anyone at this table?

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, I think the

18 resource scarcity issue -- Tom even mentioned it

19 in terms of timing. How do we time the

20 implementation? So I'm just -- that seems to me to

21 be something that we've had dialogue about. And

22 I'm trying to understand is that a decision that
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1 we have some influence over? Or is it just fixed

2 and -- it's just not clear to me. I don't know.

3 So I think we need to either make some kind of

4 decision on the timing.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris Lau has a

6 comment.

7 MR. LAU: Actually I have a

8 clarifying question. Sorry to put you on the spot

9 again, Betsy.

10 MS. KOHL: Sorry. Go ahead. I'm

11 sorry.

12 MR. LAU: I know you said there's a

13 hard implementation that you can't do a phased-in

14 approach where you ratchet up the standard over

15 time.

16 MS. KOHL: Right.

17 MR. LAU: However, is -- does the

18 legal language allow for phase-in by equipment

19 class over time?

20 MS. KOHL: We have not historically

21 done that. And I don't know that we would read

22 the statute that way. I mean we could certainly
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1 take a look at it, but our going practice up until

2 this point has not been to do so.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I -

5 -

6 MS. KOHL: And sorry, just to finish.

7 Part of the reason for that is your analysis is

8 keyed off it and you don't do different 30 year

9 time periods for different product classes. So it

10 could cause some analytical problems.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Well, we can make them

12 rerun it.

13 MS. WIDDER: Have you?

14 MS: KOHL: For product class? We can

15 talk about it after.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So, so I appreciate

17 the legislative constraints. However, I think as

18 a practical matter, as it might affect this

19 negotiation, lacking the capacity to have it

20 tiered to or a later implementation will probably

21 result in a lower standard that we'll agree to,

22 that we'll have to live with for a long time. And
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1 I'd just like to observe that's too bad because I

2 would suspect that probably was not the

3 legislators' intent.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: The question's on the

5 table still, whether there's any flexibility on

6 the five years. I think Betsy pretty much

7 answered it. I thought, Lucas, you were going to

8 say something as well? No. Okay. Louis?

9 MR. HANDZEL: It sounds like the

10 answer is the five years is the five years.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: The five years is the

12 five years.

13 MR. HANDZEL: And there's no possible

14 phase-in --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

16 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

17 But you aren't telling us that we could not look

18 for legislative relief on this in Congress?

19 MS. KOHL: I don't express any

20 opinion at all.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And maybe Steve, Steve

22 Rosenstock.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

2 EEI. That is an option, but good luck. I don't

3 know what your timeframe is, but, you know, there

4 was an efficiency bill on the Senate floor, but it

5 didn't really go anywhere.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. As a longtime

7 observer, I'd say it's definitely a possibility.

8 It's not an easy thing to get done. Louis.

9 MR. STARR: So actually the other

10 thing we probably, maybe the manufacturers can

11 help in this, is that we need -- they did the

12 upper and lower bounds with what the markups could

13 be assuming passing it all on to the customer, and

14 then the other assumption is passing less of it

15 on.

16 So we sort of need an idea of where you

17 think that markup might be, so it helps us to look

18 at those, the graphs with the green and yellow

19 line, that graph, and then on the lifecycle costs.

20 So it doesn't need to be spot-on, but I assume you

21 are not going to be able to pass all the cost onto

22 the customer. It's somewhere in-between those
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1 bounds.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Bob Barbour.

3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO.

4 I believe Alison said you were going to give us

5 the percentages of those --

6 MR. LAU: MIAs where they cross.

7 MR. BARBOUR: (Inaudible) those values

8 were set on. Are you going to do that?

9 MR. LAU: Yes. I'll send the

10 presentation. What specific values are you

11 referring to?

12 MR. BARBOUR: As far as the --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Find out which of the

14 yellow and green lines would cross zero.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: We can eyeball it.

16 MR. LAU: We can estimate it.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, we can probably

18 estimate it. It's hard to reverse engineer the

19 exact crossing point, but we can give it a try.

20 We can do some trial and error first.

21 MR. BARBOUR: I was -- actually this

22 is Bob Barbour again. I was referring to the
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1 percentage of an increase that you thought we

2 would need to pass on to the marketplace in order

3 for it to become whole in the timeframe that you

4 had presented.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: So -- Dan Weintraub

7 now. The markups that were needed for that are in

8 the presentation that Chris showed you. So those

9 markups are there. And those don't quite get the

10 industry whole as we saw because of the delayed

11 implementation. But I think the idea was that we

12 weren't going to look at those even higher markups

13 because we're already past the realm of reality

14 with what we were looking at with the markups at

15 cost increases of 13, 14, 15, and

16 16%.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me ask a

18 question because I believe I heard Alison say this

19 before, and correct me if I didn't. For example,

20 you've calculated PER 25 and PER 40. Should this

21 group ask them to calculate PER 27, PER 20? If

22 this is a lot of work, I'd understand. PER 27,
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1 PER 29, PER 31, PER 33, you know? I'm wondering

2 if you want to seek a midpoint in there or some

3 sort of a thing like that.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean if you

5 guys want to suggest like, preferably not every

6 point, but like, hey, can we see PER 30, we can

7 run that scenario.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie

10 Cappellino. I think we can just look at the

11 graphs and interpolate off a graph for the

12 purposes of what we have to do today.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Because it

14 wouldn't be fast for us to do this.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Save your time to do

16 other more valuable things.

17 MR. ECKMAN: With all due respect,

18 given the precision of any forecast 30 years in

19 the future, we can eyeball it.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: And Doug, this is

21 Charlie. Just to finish my thought here. I had

22 one other thing that I thought we needed to make a
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1 decision on, that is, whatever we're going to do

2 from an extended product standpoint. I mean it's

3 still not -- I think we ought to as a group say,

4 look, here's our (inaudible) or suggestion or

5 recommendation on extended product (inaudible).

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. That makes

7 sense to me. Okay. Anybody wish to say anything

8 else before we head out of here today?

9 MS. WIDDER: One thing that I might just

10 ask the Working Group, is if we go back to the

11 agenda, do maybe we want to change the agenda for

12 tomorrow to continue these standard negotiations

13 in the morning?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Yes.

15 MS. WIDDER: And then address the

16 metric later on?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's get that -

18 - let's get that started. Let's see how that

19 progresses, and then let's move to the metric

20 discussion and whatever else you have there.

21 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I like that a
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1 lot.

2 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Because I think we're

4 going to do a couple of different iterations

5 there. I could imagine during the day that we'd

6 have a proposal. We'd consider a proposal. We'd

7 come back and forth a little bit. Additional

8 thoughts and comments before I recess this

9 meeting? We are going to start tomorrow morning

10 at 8:00. We're going to be in 8E.

11 MS. EDWARDS: 089. 8E-089.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: 8E-089, which is a

13 very -- always been a very productive room for us.

14 And Charlie? No? That's it. So the other thing

15 I'd like to say is that anybody that wishes to

16 ought to feel as though they can access the

17 analytic team as they might. Right? And so any

18 clarification, not only on the data, but, for

19 example, on the history previous rule makings and

20 the like. That might just be an interesting bit

21 of -- interesting bit of reflection for different

22 caucuses. Okay. So Steve and Bob Barbour.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

2 EEI. Yeah, these will be the new presentations we

3 send out at the end of the day so we can review

4 them tonight.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't know when

6 they'd be sent out. These two were done today?

7 MR. ADIN: Yeah. We can send them

8 out today.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That'd be great.

10 Thanks. Thank you, Lucas. Bob.

11 MR. BARBOUR: Could I make a

12 suggestion, that on the postings that go on the

13 SharePoint site, that somehow the dates don't

14 reflect the original date of the presentation, so

15 that we can make sure we're pulling up the most

16 recent ones? Because some of the times I've gone

17 on it and I've looked to try to locate the most

18 recent slide deck, and they seem to be keeping the

19 original dates that they had when they first

20 presented that slide deck as opposed to a new

21 date, which would help us to know we've got the

22 right deck.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And this slide deck

2 that's going to go out now, is it going to go out

3 onto SharePoint? Or is it going to go out to

4 individual e- mails?

5 MR. ADIN: For the ones that we

6 presented today, I think we'll go ahead and --

7 I'll post them on SharePoint anyway, but I'll also

8 e-mail them out because it's probably easier.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be great to

10 e-mail them. That's much better.

11 MR. ADIN: Oh, you're not in your

12 offices.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Thanks very

14 much.

15 MR. ADIN: Thank you.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We covered a

17 lot of ground today. And now we're entering this

18 interesting phase where, having seen a whole bunch

19 of analysis, we can actually get down to some

20 discussion that will be fruitful. So we'll see

21 you at 8:00 a.m. in 8E. We'll have someone down

22 there, probably Brenda, 7:15 or so to --
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1 MS. EDWARDS: 7.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: 7, to admit everyone.

3 Okay. Thanks, thanks for a good day. We'll see

4 you in the morning. We have additional copies --

5 we have additional copies -- we have additional

6 copies of the PowerPoint that was handed out at

7 lunch.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION

2

3

4 I, Penny Knight, hereby certify that I am not the

5 Court Reporter who reported the following

6 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of

7 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes

8 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript

9 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of

10 said proceeding.

11

12

13

14

15 _______________ ________________________

June 4, 2014 Penny Knight

16 Transcriptionist

17

18

19

20

21

22
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$

$1,500 182:15

$20 259:21

$200,000 70:13

$500 182:13

0

0 101:16

0% 103:2

0.2 248:14

0.3 250:5

0.5% 319:10

0.76 248:15

0.8 250:4

089 24:19 366:11

1

1 163:14 219:3

1% 103:20

1,000 141:3 154:5

181:15

1,200 162:17

188:13

1,600 188:12

1,800 318:15

1.0 250:5

1.1 324:14

1.34 133:8

1.4 74:13

1.5% 230:21

1.59 133:8

1.8% 231:1

1.87% 230:20

1:10 200:22 201:4

1:30 345:19

10 10:7 48:16

61:17 64:9,14

66:5 68:18 69:3

98:17 99:12

163:14,15

172:13,14

178:11 201:20

238:18 243:12

248:15 268:9

291:8 330:16

332:21,22 333:3

339:15 340:1

10% 51:16 61:9

62:21 70:4 82:19

86:1 98:5,19

134:5 158:19

238:18 319:10

325:7 336:13

339:16,17 340:1

342:21

10,000 130:16

181:15

10.3% 70:7

10:35 110:6

10:50 110:7

100 95:22 101:17

100% 134:2,14

188:16 262:18

266:3,10

1000 1:12

10th 101:14

11 67:1 68:3

172:13,14

178:11 194:2

195:11 317:22

329:10 334:3

338:22 356:5,16

11% 340:2

11.8 53:18

11.8% 172:11

176:17 188:17

1-1/4 155:17

110 319:20 331:19

110% 134:3,16

12 305:6,10

12.2 82:8

12:10 200:21

120 319:21

1-200 273:8

1212 300:18

13 363:15

13% 261:5 291:8

14 363:15

140 319:21

14th 70:21,22 71:2

15 9:8 44:8 192:12

253:18 363:15

15% 52:10

53:6,10,14 56:9

60:12 61:15,17

74:14 238:19

150 319:20 331:22

16 215:5 221:8

16% 175:1 363:16

17 40:15 202:12

17% 133:3

178 268:11,13

269:19

18 40:15 170:12

1800 102:4,8

153:2,9 196:19

197:2,3,4 332:14

19 40:15 152:16

347:16

19.7 99:12

2

2 58:15 59:13,16

2% 47:8,12 50:16

2,500 139:9 144:2

153:11

2.25 337:13

2.5 245:19 246:10

248:9

2.6 152:15

2.7 152:15

2.8 250:4

2:30 253:19

20 44:7

70:10,11,14

103:12 192:20

193:4,5 194:3

198:12 199:16

201:20 268:10

315:17 326:1

333:5 363:21

20% 53:9 103:9,12

139:8,10 143:14

144:1,2,3 149:15

150:19

157:11,21

158:18 159:22

160:3

200 70:13 163:16

262:9

200,000 85:22

2000 215:6

2007 334:3 341:3

2010 215:6

2012 214:14 223:1

224:12 226:9

227:6 230:15

232:8,15 233:15

237:7
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2013 246:7 262:2

2014 1:16 4:6

239:2 240:12,16

245:11 246:5

247:11 262:2

305:2,11,16

370:15

2015 94:6,7 96:4

305:13,16 341:2

2016 299:9 300:13

2018 263:12

2019 192:19 193:3

226:4 233:15,16

235:1 238:1

259:14 260:6

263:13

2035 193:5

2048 226:9 233:17

235:1 249:4,7

20585 1:14

21 152:16 183:1

21% 105:17

210% 261:14

22% 339:19

25 64:14 71:7 74:5

79:3,11 99:21

107:10 108:5

134:14 135:17

201:22 238:18

266:12 267:19

268:10 323:3

324:15 333:5

335:4 339:15

342:17 363:20

25% 56:8 61:15

92:17

134:4,13,14

325:7 335:4

336:13

27 213:1 265:13

363:21,22

27th 70:21 71:2

28 1:16 4:5 98:6

152:11

28th 24:1

29 364:1

3

3 69:4 105:10

3% 52:3 82:5,8

88:9 240:14

249:21 250:4

3,000 154:4 163:12

181:15

3,500 139:10 144:3

30 71:8 74:16

78:18 79:15 98:6

109:4 110:10

131:9

172:10,15,21,22

176:11 178:1,3,6

188:16 190:3

192:4,6,14

193:1,12,21

194:5,8,12,16,18

,22

195:10,11,17,21

196:1,4,7,13

201:19 202:8

214:8,10 230:20

235:10 244:7

248:20,21

249:13,17

278:17 347:2

359:8 364:6,18

30% 74:16 109:1

159:22 160:3

300,000 229:6

230:17

30th 45:6 70:21

31 364:1

31,000 153:9

32 226:20

33 80:4 364:1

34 227:18

342 268:12

35 50:7 79:11,15

265:14

36 342:10

3600 102:4,10

153:2 196:20

197:5 321:18

322:20 336:3

339:19

4

4 132:11 141:5

370:15

4% 47:1 105:10

4,000 146:21,22

4,500 146:22

40 48:17

64:9,12,13,22

65:1,16 66:5

68:18 69:2,5,7

73:17 74:5,12,16

77:10 79:11

90:17 93:8,15,21

94:20 96:3 97:4

98:6 166:10,11

230:18

238:3,4,11,19

241:16 244:11

261:14

268:4,11,12

269:18 323:3

326:1 330:16

339:15 340:10

341:5 342:17

363:20

40% 73:20 75:7,15

76:10,12 77:10

78:5,13 93:1

108:22 336:13

347:3

40.6 121:10

420 224:12

420,000 215:12

223:1 224:12

226:8 233:15

271:20 272:14

47% 239:15

490 233:16

5

5 61:9,17 62:21

132:11 141:5

5% 53:10 54:11

105:4 158:19

238:18

5,000 139:11 144:3

154:5

50 71:7 340:11

342:17

50% 134:14 187:1

190:14,18

266:13 336:13

340:12,15

500 219:3

505 305:12

50-50 239:18

50598 301:5,20

302:22 303:16

524 318:1

55 73:17

74:2,13,16 79:3

268:11 335:8
Capital Reporting Company

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339:15

55% 336:13

6

6 305:10

6,000 158:16

60 109:22

163:15,16

201:19

60-cycle 109:9

6295 357:7

7

7 63:1 324:17

369:1,2

7% 98:20 99:14

240:14 249:21

250:5

7,000 85:18,21,22

7,500 153:11

157:11,14,21

158:4,16 159:2

160:7 161:2

230:19

7.5% 63:2

7:15 368:22

70 68:18 96:9 98:6

188:12 241:16

244:8 248:15

339:15 340:3,6

342:17

70% 90:12 93:2

133:4 289:11

336:13

700 43:18 233:17

700,000 226:9

75% 134:14

8

8 99:12 155:18

8% 98:19 195:11

8,000 146:21

8:00 24:15,17

366:10 368:21

80 66:5 268:10

800 162:17 163:11

800,000 221:6

272:4

85 107:10 108:5

8E 24:18 366:10

368:21

8E-089 366:11,12

8th 101:14

9

9 99:12 183:1

215:5 221:8

9% 98:19

9,000 163:12

90 31:14

34:8,16,21

90% 105:17

266:13

900,000 221:5

92 122:15 353:22

95% 54:9

96 122:14,17,21

98% 50:3

9th 101:14

A

a.m 368:21

abandoned 53:22

abandoning

54:5,17

abandonment

55:11 56:4 60:9

ability 204:10

280:14

able 6:21 12:2,22

33:2 39:20 41:9

102:6 128:12

135:13 137:22

145:9 183:8

186:2 187:8

196:5 203:18,20

247:11 255:7

257:5 269:9

278:21 280:17

281:3 295:6

297:12 317:2

319:11

324:21,22

328:17 342:4,5

348:22 361:21

absence 324:22

absolutely 9:12

27:21 71:22

310:14

absorb 205:14

absorbs 205:1

accept 111:11

297:21

acceptable 18:7

accepts 111:22

access 200:8

366:16

accomplish 72:4

126:17

accomplished 9:3

accomplishing

32:12

accordingly 134:5

account 25:14

46:6 53:11 132:1

173:14 208:22

216:17,18

239:22 243:20

259:16 266:16

274:14,16

331:12

accounted 215:19

287:18 313:7

accounting 254:16

accumulating

235:10 242:22

accuracy 320:4

accurate 22:17

38:22 63:21

276:2 320:7,9

accurately 342:3

achieve 263:18

313:5

achieving 286:5

acknowledge 43:8

acoustics 15:10

across 17:10

131:6,9 134:13

135:3 139:12

165:13 181:6,14

182:8 198:7

213:10 214:10

247:19,20

248:11 260:21

274:7,11 294:16

300:10

active 8:15 9:11

activities 301:3

actual 13:8

64:1,3,13 66:1

70:8 92:1 108:1
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169:4 188:21

207:18 223:22

227:9 351:13

actuality 39:3

actually 16:20

24:22 32:15

33:13 36:4,9

37:14 38:21

41:13 47:9

49:8,22 63:11,17

64:20 69:2,9,20

74:4,15 76:3,19

80:17 81:9 95:19

98:12 99:17

104:20 105:1,3

108:10 114:20

115:13 125:4

128:20 135:11

140:5 142:18

145:6 151:8

152:12 162:18

168:9 183:22

192:13 202:22

211:5 224:20

240:10 242:7

244:9 252:1

256:3 258:5

259:13 261:21

272:19

291:2,13,14

300:13 303:18

320:5,20

322:7,21,22

323:6 324:6

327:13 329:16

335:1 339:19,22

343:17 354:21

358:7 361:9

362:21 368:19

add 9:6 50:17 55:4

132:5 189:6

207:1 219:8

226:6 238:19

255:21 261:20

262:4 284:12

290:2 294:14

added 63:2 70:2

72:10 74:14,16

82:4 156:20

289:20 355:4

adding 59:18

69:21 102:13

133:10 207:7,8,9

213:5

addition 9:21

124:14 144:4

additional 9:14

23:6 46:9 51:10

58:14,16 86:4

92:7,18,19

106:10 177:14

234:19 265:3

290:5 366:7

369:4,5

address 25:15

27:18 37:10 41:4

42:5 121:18

129:6 204:6

269:2 272:8

365:15

addresses

20:15,18 24:22

254:8

addressing 17:1

23:5 29:12

287:11

adds 82:5

adequately 215:14

Adin 2:11 5:3

7:13,16 8:9,12

9:4 10:5,13 11:5

12:8,11 14:15,18

15:15,18 16:2

18:16 19:12

20:9,12,15 23:22

24:17,21

26:12,17

27:2,5,17

29:1,17

30:7,10,12 31:17

32:11,22 35:4,19

36:11,14,19

37:16,20 38:3,7

39:2,22 41:11,17

42:5,9,13,15,19

43:2 77:17,20

106:17,22 111:7

112:13,18

113:7,12,17,20

114:5,7,11

116:6,9,13,20

118:17,21 119:1

120:2,6 278:22

279:2,4 280:11

283:19

284:11,19

285:20 294:13

295:20

307:12,13,19

308:11 309:4,7

345:15,20

357:14 367:7

368:5,11,15

adjust 75:22

122:11 340:19

adjusted 46:3,4

64:8 152:21

153:3,4 177:16

adjusting 122:12

adjustment 272:20

adjustments 161:1

administration

306:12

administrators

306:12

admit 348:6 369:2

advance 32:3

112:21

advanced

51:11,15,19,22

57:21 66:9

82:3,16,21 83:12

85:19 86:5,19

88:9 280:21

advantage 208:17

267:9 288:20

292:7

advantageous

125:3,4

advantages 113:1

advertising 293:15

advocates 93:18

292:8 357:1

AEO 224:10

225:13,15

226:14 228:9

239:2 240:4,11

245:11,13

246:5,6 247:11

AEO's 223:11

affect 47:16

120:20

121:7,11,19

122:21

124:4,6,12,20

127:18 232:22

241:12 294:16

359:18

affecting 121:16

296:7

affects 38:17

afternoon 76:4

205:20 242:5

afterwards 115:15

against 196:6

agency 357:4
Capital Reporting Company

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agenda 7:14,19

21:19 24:11

168:10

344:12,16

345:10 365:11

aggregate 63:21

72:8 73:6 83:21

91:20,21,22 98:5

205:8 229:16

325:17 326:3

328:18

aggregated 319:13

327:18 328:21

aggregates 235:6

ago 71:15 225:11

296:19 326:16

agreed 86:10,14

122:13 296:22

agreement 47:22

78:3 79:1 88:15

89:2 167:11

212:5 301:22

317:19 322:9

agreements

88:13,14,22

357:6

agricultural

225:18 226:7

agriculture

157:1,4 225:19

239:16

ahead 8:21 18:11

29:12 42:8 74:21

115:1 126:18

136:17 144:5

147:21 238:7

268:20 277:12

295:13 299:17

358:10 368:6

aiming 39:8,15

air 207:5

aired 126:4

Al 3:8 7:4 166:20

297:19

Alex 2:20 5:21

algorithm 217:22

Alison 2:22 6:3

50:11,12 124:21

125:14 127:10

134:10 139:15

145:11 147:4

154:19 161:19

166:19 167:11

168:1 169:18

170:7 183:2

185:17 186:22

196:17 199:1

202:15 212:22

215:22 217:20

231:4 251:6

252:19 254:4,20

279:3 280:1

287:19 319:14

344:9 362:4

363:18

Alison's 186:9

Alliance 4:16

allow 200:2 208:8

244:21 290:9

294:6 349:5

354:9 358:18

allowed 102:1

155:21 312:15

allows 186:5

288:22

alone 44:7 58:5,7

already 13:6

49:10,12 58:16

61:1,3 63:2

94:22 113:22

148:18

166:11,13 174:6

206:11,14,18

208:18,22 209:4

254:18 273:2

291:8 293:22

294:10 297:6,13

303:17 356:4

363:13

alter 232:18

alternate 228:15

232:4

alternative 137:1

224:18

am 47:21 136:9

281:10 283:8

307:9 326:6,21

340:10 351:9,20

354:20 370:4

America 109:9

216:14

among 12:16

17:14 206:19

amongst 275:6

338:14,15

amount 49:21

114:1 190:5

209:2 258:5

269:4,5 289:7

307:6

amounted 172:14

amounts 141:8

344:17

analyses 45:5 49:9

79:21 236:22

266:17 267:10

279:9 310:16

analysis 9:9 11:12

12:21 13:7 20:21

21:6 22:1,4,5

24:5 32:8,16

35:13 38:8

40:7,13 41:16

44:11,17 47:19

53:18 57:7,12

64:10 65:9 79:14

91:18 100:16

101:18 102:5

103:22 105:3,11

124:20 131:9,10

132:16

134:20,21 135:8

137:22

149:10,14

151:22 170:9

172:9,16

173:10,11,16

175:12 176:6,10

178:1 186:11,12

187:2,8,14

188:16 192:6,14

193:22

194:5,14,16,22

195:6 204:22

205:18 213:1

214:3,4,5,6,7,8,1

0 224:13 226:5

234:22 235:5

236:22 237:9

239:7,9 247:13

249:9 250:8

254:7,8,10 259:7

262:2,7 264:21

265:4 266:6,18

272:5,11 279:5

281:3 283:15

284:18

285:19,21

286:15,19

287:11,19

290:16,22

297:22 298:7,20

307:4

309:2,14,17

310:1 311:3,18
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312:6 340:5

359:7 368:19

analysis's 355:3,4

analysis-wise 21:8

23:15

analytic 290:3

366:17

analytical 69:12

359:10

analyze 186:6

287:20

analyzed 90:3

analyzing 312:6

and/or 34:4

and-a-half 326:16

announce 259:10

267:9

announcement

114:16 281:12

announcements

267:8

annoying 50:17

annual 81:12,14

164:6 228:18

237:1,2 248:18

anomaly 336:15

answer 15:15

104:9 130:10

187:15 217:13

218:20 234:2

284:20

326:13,18

337:19 360:10

answered 360:7

answering 312:4

348:18

answers 43:3

326:8

anybody 147:19

215:20 233:20

237:16 365:7

366:15

anymore 28:10

anyone 22:20

44:22 49:4 82:13

134:1 157:6

200:7 234:5

241:19 357:16

anything 14:12

51:5 93:15,21

132:7 134:15

147:9 183:19

184:15 199:1

238:3 266:2

267:10,18

273:16 279:1

293:13 325:9

365:7

anyway 18:5 88:20

104:17 118:16

119:3 135:17

224:5 368:7

anyways 137:7

anywhere 72:19

105:17 154:4

157:14 265:13

361:5

apart 316:7

apologize 116:9

162:20 194:11

apparent 244:10

Appeals 6:18

appear 323:14

apples 324:2

329:13

Appliance 4:11

5:10

applicable

194:12,13

application

139:9,13 143:21

144:1 147:6

148:2,10,12

149:5,11 153:12

158:1 159:16,19

applications

142:21 144:20

145:2,7

157:15,19 160:4

286:8

applied 90:20

applies 120:22

131:13

apply 102:6,8

284:2,5

applying 237:12

appreciable

236:11

appreciate 11:2

241:21 359:16

appreciation 66:9

approach 95:19

112:8 223:3

224:19 228:15

231:18 234:10

285:15 292:5

301:4

302:11,12,17

334:14 357:3

358:14

approaches

309:15 311:12

appropriate 17:6

22:15 33:6 76:16

119:9 130:5

223:17 224:6,22

231:20 287:22

288:1

approved 305:2

approximate

339:9,10

approximately

31:3 46:12 51:12

82:19 85:22

105:15

163:14,15,16

172:13 178:11

199:16 226:9

239:18 315:15

April 45:6 70:21

148:4,20 152:22

327:7

architecture

120:22 124:1

area 283:12

areas 57:19 198:1

354:15

aren't 21:13 43:22

57:5 91:6 117:16

147:1 198:16

207:16 267:16

275:11 297:8

360:17

arguing 136:1

argument 184:14

ARMSTRONG

138:7,12,15,18

169:18,20

170:1,5,19,22

171:4,7 185:13

186:18 190:10

199:11 200:5

arrive 345:13

artifact 196:5,13

Ashley 138:19,20

187:9

aside 76:9 96:6
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98:7 332:9

aspect 38:19

aspects 16:5 25:9

117:20 353:5

ASRAC 4:4 12:14

14:2,4,6,9

19:15,19 20:3

27:7,8 29:16

30:16

111:3,5,7,10,11,

14,16,22 112:12

126:18 171:2,6

349:5

assembled

222:10,13

assess 76:15

254:13 347:22

348:16

assigned 130:17

133:18 139:9,10

141:10 143:21

assigning 176:9

239:16

assistance 353:20

associated

92:15,19 273:21

312:10

Association 5:22

assume 24:15

118:10,11

192:16 237:22

244:8 256:21

258:2,4 278:1

320:15 361:20

assumed 90:12

257:11 259:18

263:21

assumes 161:5,7

165:2 274:18

294:2,8

assuming 34:8

41:2 83:11

111:22 127:15

192:18 193:8

236:3,17 242:12

243:22 248:4

250:15 258:7

361:13

assumption 34:2

35:18 51:13 52:4

84:4,10 93:5

205:4 232:13

241:2,4,11 244:5

259:6 260:5

263:17 273:22

361:14

assumptions

88:1,6 90:13

91:18 121:1

128:19 206:2

232:17 250:12

264:17

astonishment

208:5

attention 315:10

attributed 90:11

93:1

audited 140:12

authority 349:20

350:1 357:9

authorization

19:14 27:11

authorized 20:2

27:7

availability 280:16

281:15

available 46:5,8

66:18 92:4 93:22

97:6 127:16

237:20 264:21

287:13,14,18

293:4 297:3

352:9 353:14

AVENUES 1:12

average 52:20

53:17 61:8 70:12

76:13 98:6 99:11

103:20 104:2

131:12 140:8

152:14,19

153:20,22

154:6,15 156:2

161:16 164:7

180:5,9 183:1

237:3 239:1,10

253:4 257:11

321:21

324:12,15,17

337:11

avoiding 118:13

204:7

aware 66:11 121:9

210:14 351:20

Awareness 5:11

away 33:16 137:5

265:21 266:1

284:4 340:7

axis 101:20

182:1,3

318:21,22

B

backed 53:6,9

125:12 327:20

background 12:21

338:18

backstop 351:18

bad 331:21

333:5,6 360:1

badge 110:8 201:1

balanced 345:8

Baldor 5:19

ball 357:8

ballpark 339:11

ballparked

60:12,19

bar 349:10

Barbour 2:13 5:6

7:5 40:22

41:1,12 42:17

50:5 53:19

54:4,7,11,16

55:1 74:22

75:3,4,7,9,14,17,

21 77:8,12,14

105:12,13,19

106:5,6,9

110:19,20

112:6,7 126:19

172:6,18 173:4

174:6,9,14,18,22

175:4

187:10,11,17

188:20 189:11

325:16,22

356:21,22

360:15,16

362:2,3,7,12,21,

22 366:22

367:11

bare 121:1,13

123:1 126:21,22

127:4,14 238:5

283:10 288:9,14

292:1,2 294:7

296:10 306:5

barely 342:13

base 53:7 130:18

144:22

161:10,14

171:14 188:13

189:9 223:1

233:4 235:16
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250:11,22

261:14 263:7

268:15 269:21

282:10

332:18,19

based 12:21 30:8

31:17,22 34:3

35:2,5,14 44:19

45:11 56:11

60:21 61:17

63:13 64:17,19

65:17,21

67:1,5,6 70:10

75:10 77:6 78:12

90:14 92:6 93:16

96:15,21 97:6

101:19 103:21

107:10 115:21

122:17,22

126:20 130:18

134:14 137:11

141:9,10 143:21

152:22 153:3

174:7 183:12

187:8 195:9,17

224:10 225:3

226:21 227:2,5

232:4 236:7

239:10,19

240:14 241:17

243:7 246:11

256:7 257:11,14

269:15 271:20

272:20

276:11,15

277:15

279:12,17

285:21 290:19

317:13 322:4,5

326:15,22

327:11 328:16

349:7 356:13

baseline 44:20

74:12 83:7 85:19

93:7 94:12,14

104:20 133:7

268:9 273:22

300:15

basic 101:5 187:17

basically 26:20

50:18 57:1

59:3,6 68:5 74:6

101:19 108:7

125:21 130:16

131:11 132:10

133:4,17 134:6

135:4,9 138:5

139:5 141:1

142:19

143:14,16

146:10 148:5,7

152:21 155:9

156:17 161:9,13

163:2 164:21

165:6,17,22

166:4 169:13

171:16 172:4,15

173:12 175:17

188:2,5,7,10

190:6 192:18

198:17 205:10

213:9 214:6,11

217:11 222:3,22

225:5,9 233:5

236:13 241:22

243:15 248:8

250:8 261:15

265:10 268:16

271:20 278:9,20

304:21 309:17

319:18 345:16

356:12

basing 93:18

121:13 183:11

basis 35:10 50:1

81:14 86:6,18

91:22 92:8

100:16 114:13

147:16 204:15

207:12,13

307:22

bears 30:19

beating 183:5

became 70:15

become 283:16

303:19 363:3

becomes 86:2

206:7

becoming 282:13

begin 40:11 52:1

beginning 191:8

283:11

behave 57:13

behind 6:11 305:6

believe 10:6 22:17

31:19 37:8 39:21

41:18 51:1 63:3

79:4 86:15

143:5,6 148:9

167:2 172:11

175:5 206:9

223:20 245:11

263:12 362:4

363:18

bell 96:2 157:20

342:16 343:8

Beloit 5:9 119:16

belong 290:10

benchmark 34:5

189:12 316:11

330:20

beneficial 347:1

benefit 43:6 82:16

165:17,20

166:16 180:19

295:3 351:22

353:22

benefit/net 165:21

benefits 83:3,5

130:22 167:13

307:1 354:7

benefitting 166:7

198:9

BEP 134:2,7

Berkeley 6:4

besides 310:1

best 22:19 37:14

96:3 165:8 172:5

185:17,19

187:12 197:22

211:13 223:18

287:22 295:9

354:12,13

bet 115:5

Betsy 2:9 4:22

34:14,17 310:7

349:17 350:7

351:1 358:9

360:6

better 22:21 32:21

36:17 76:1,13

125:9 138:13

149:3 154:15

156:4 224:3

258:6 288:19

289:22 308:15

345:11 368:10

beyond 65:13

69:11 96:5 108:1

290:7 294:14

297:12 332:2

348:6,8,21

bidding 108:14

bigger 120:22
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 9

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

biggest 227:19

bill 235:12 243:1

361:4

billion 250:4

billions 250:2

bin 162:9 163:5

180:6 221:16

331:7

binned 320:20

bins 69:4 221:14

320:22

bio 202:8

BIS 214:15 327:10

328:18

329:18,20

bit 11:21 16:4 22:8

37:13 46:12

60:18 73:13

76:14 100:12

101:2 120:15

134:22 155:1

156:3 176:2

181:2 194:21

199:9 203:22

207:19 211:6

259:9 264:15

267:22 279:19

321:19 322:14

343:13 347:5

366:7,20,21

bits 40:12

black 93:6

blacked 93:6

blackout 267:7

blank 209:9

blind 323:11,21

blocked 81:4

blue 283:2 318:19

330:22 335:14

board 134:13

165:14 181:6

213:10 247:20

260:21

boardrooms

297:21

Bob 5:6 7:5 40:22

41:1 50:5 53:19

55:5 56:1 60:5

67:13 75:3,4

77:8 105:12,13

106:6 110:19

112:7 126:18

128:8 172:6,18

183:3 187:10,11

356:22

360:15,16

362:2,3,22

366:22 367:10

Bob's 56:21 76:6

Boesenberg 2:20

5:21

bogged 28:20

boil 43:19

boiler 141:5

144:13 158:5

bookings 225:4

boost 141:4

bottom 20:19

61:16 81:12 93:6

98:20 103:3,5,15

104:22 164:16

181:10 182:9

229:13 345:16

bought 57:1

193:10

bound 165:8

167:17,18

173:21,22

174:13,20,21

175:17

179:10,12

187:12

218:12,14,18

256:13

258:11,13

260:13,14,17

291:6 298:14,19

bounding 218:1

330:3

bounds 183:14

184:3 185:16

186:10,20

205:16,18,19

361:12 362:1

box 222:14 301:16

boy 40:18

brain 60:6

brands 338:19

break 96:12 97:21

107:17

110:5,11,14

145:1 163:9

201:7 239:6

253:15,17,18,20

315:3,4 348:9

breakdown

166:15 233:18

234:15

breaker 150:2

Brenda 171:11

202:20,21

368:22

Brent 2:19 5:19

Brian 2:12 5:4 7:4

201:18,21

brief 22:6 100:3

201:16

briefly 8:4 14:1

20:17

bring 99:3 110:17

249:9 296:6

302:9 353:9

bringing 99:1

303:9 355:17

broad 79:6

broaden 220:12

broke 180:5

bronze 185:4

BROOKMAN 2:2

4:2 5:17

6:8,13,20 7:9

9:5,13,17 10:12

14:14 15:3,9

18:10 19:1,7

24:20 26:11

31:11 32:4 33:19

34:17 35:20

39:17 40:1

42:3,7,11,14,22

43:7,13 50:11

51:1 52:6 56:13

67:21 68:4,9,14

69:16

71:11,16,19

72:6,16,20

73:3,7 78:20

79:12 80:1,12

83:8 85:7 86:13

87:2,12,18,22

88:4,11 91:8,10

94:2 95:11 98:15

99:9,15 100:6

102:18 104:8

105:12 107:7

108:20 109:6

110:5,12 112:15

113:4,8,13,18

114:4,6,10,15

115:20

116:7,11,19
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

118:6 120:12

122:3 125:21

126:13

129:18,22

131:18

135:15,21

136:5,16 137:18

138:14,17

143:8,11 146:15

147:21 151:10

153:7 157:7

158:20 159:14

160:10,13

166:19

167:9,14,20

170:3,7,14

171:6,10,12

172:17 176:1,22

179:9,12,21

180:2 181:20

182:2,7,11,16

187:9 189:14

191:3 192:2

195:3,20

196:10,14,22

197:10

199:1,5,8,13,19

200:1,11,14,16,1

9 201:8

202:6,15,17,22

204:2 208:11,14

209:5 212:21

217:4 220:17

222:6 226:18

228:13 229:7

233:21 234:19

238:7,10,15,21

240:17

242:12,18 244:3

245:2 251:2,5

252:5,13,17

253:12,16,21

255:21 256:5

258:15 261:9

263:9,14

264:10,20

267:11

268:19,22

269:14

270:2,12,18

271:17 272:15

273:12,17

276:3,6,8

277:5,11 278:4

279:2 280:6

281:5,14

282:7,17,21

283:5,19 288:3

290:12 291:17

294:12

295:14,17

296:16 297:18

298:21 303:22

304:4 305:19

306:20 307:12

308:3,12,21

309:10,18

310:10,19

311:20 312:12

313:8 314:20

315:2,5,14,18,21

318:17 320:13

321:22 322:3,10

326:4,19

333:11,14

341:16

344:1,5,9,13,19

345:2,17,21

346:3,10 349:1

350:3 351:19

352:4,7 353:3

354:16 358:5

359:3

360:4,11,15,21

361:6 362:2

363:17 364:8

365:6,14,17,22

366:3,12 367:5,9

368:1,9,13,16

369:2

brought 36:20

94:1 222:9

337:17

bucket 320:3

buckets 143:14

build 237:19

builder 115:22

building 1:13 4:6

141:16 155:20

159:3 201:1

299:19

buildings 143:10

157:12 158:2,14

270:21

built 35:11 259:15

bulk 40:6,7,19

43:20 323:22

342:16

bullet 17:2

bumps 289:17

bunch 124:8,15

254:17 368:18

burden 356:1

burdened 166:17

198:9

burdening 165:6

burdens 167:13

business 38:18

56:22 57:4,8,12

62:8 205:9

206:12 212:19

265:12 270:20

293:15

businesses 56:19

270:20

buy 54:9 130:19

171:21 233:6

244:11 294:22

buyer 289:12

buy-in 14:8

buying 130:21

195:15 243:11

C

CA-38 353:8

cafeteria 201:2

calc 331:3,4

calculate 76:10

125:6 144:8

188:5,10 193:11

216:22 319:8

328:21

329:12,18 331:8

363:21

calculated

36:2,5,8,16 37:5

188:14,18 195:2

228:19

319:15,16

320:10 326:11

327:22 330:22

331:7 363:20

calculates 131:14

242:22

calculating 62:22

125:6 129:3

188:5 193:10

calculation 229:3

327:12

calculations 41:16

59:7 77:6 80:7

128:12 192:7

337:9 338:14

calculator 8:22

10:7,20 38:9

128:20 129:4

calculators 9:22
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 11

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

10:6

calculator's 38:22

California

5:13,14,16

312:21

capabilities 293:4

354:13

capacity 115:22

282:20 298:17

359:19

CAPELLINO

52:7

capital 1:22

51:9,10

52:15,20,21

53:8,18

59:2,6,13 177:16

263:11

capitals 177:21

Cappellino 2:7

4:19

18:11,12,13,17

19:3

26:11,13,14,18

27:3 29:13

30:4,9,11 52:6

56:13,14,15,21

57:16 58:2,6,9

59:1,5,9,11,15,1

9,22 71:20,21

72:3 82:14

85:8,11,15

86:4,10,20

87:6,8 102:19

103:1,5,8,11,15

104:10 136:18

137:5 142:4,5,12

143:12,18 144:6

164:5,8,11 192:3

193:9,15,18

194:8 195:13

196:9

200:9,13,15,18

204:3

229:8,13,15,19

230:1 242:4,16

249:11,12,16

256:15

258:16,20

263:14,15

264:4,14

280:6,7,8,12

283:6,7,20

285:11,12

306:21,22

307:17 311:13

312:1 320:13,14

321:1,7 333:2

341:17 344:11

354:19 357:17

364:9,10,15,20

capture 44:8

142:20 249:8

captures 215:14

card 186:15

care 217:2

carefully 31:13

Carlie 143:12

cart 93:11

case 3:7 7:1 9:7

19:9,21 30:13

35:1 36:6

43:5,8,12 52:13

68:13,15 69:13

161:10,14,15

165:8,9 171:14

172:4,5 184:13

185:17,19,20

186:12 188:13

189:9 197:21,22

205:13 207:20

208:12,13,15

211:13 233:4,5

235:16,17

237:5,21 238:1

242:11 243:5,10

250:11,22

252:11,16

263:10 265:12

268:15 269:21

279:13 282:10

287:12 296:9

300:5 326:19,21

327:3,8 331:5

339:18

cases 251:14 266:3

cash 254:15 255:7

256:6

261:17,21,22

262:1,4

casing 155:10

casings 58:11

cast 51:4 86:19

185:5

casting

51:11,15,20,22

57:21

58:17,18,19,21

82:3,16,21

83:12,17,19

84:14,16,21,22

86:5 87:8 88:10

89:15 345:14

Castings 87:10

categories 81:7

97:6 145:10

196:18 214:17

220:10 221:2

252:22

category 52:16

53:11 97:5,19

133:2

caucus 110:16

130:3 203:6

212:11 242:4,15

264:12 346:7

347:6

caucuses 264:22

366:22

caucusing 344:17

caucus's 345:4

cause 39:10 76:5

84:6 241:6

339:16,19

359:10

cells 72:1

CENELEC 301:6

304:20

census 215:3

221:12 222:18

223:21 225:3

227:2,7

center 29:17 171:8

302:8 318:21

342:16

centered 343:8

centrifugal 215:4

221:14,15

certain 27:21

35:14 66:7

100:20 149:8

222:9 242:5

285:4,5 286:7

294:7 307:6

338:19

certainly 16:17

21:11 22:19 26:4

41:20 116:13

121:5 129:6,14

134:9 146:16

150:6 155:16

160:22 169:1

179:22 226:16

250:20 251:20

279:22 285:9
Capital Reporting Company

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

286:12 287:6

291:10 300:20

302:19 347:20

353:6,7,13

358:22

certainty 28:14

117:3

CERTIFICATE

370:1

certification 15:20

306:10

certify 370:4

C-factor 313:22

chair 19:5,6 40:2

challenge 273:7

chance 44:22

71:17 113:2

240:21 291:15

change 51:11

52:2,4 64:13

70:1 71:2,3,14

78:11,12

82:20,21 84:1

86:9,17 87:22

88:9 90:1 102:17

133:12 134:9

135:9 150:5

160:20 164:16

173:10 181:9

187:14 194:19

220:13 234:14

236:11 244:7

255:18 256:22

257:2,7,20 260:8

263:22 265:19

266:9 269:8

277:4 290:21

298:10,11 321:5

365:11

changed 83:17

89:14 100:15

101:1,5 104:5

133:3 146:13

152:16 163:1

171:20 232:14

277:20

317:10,11

changes 8:21

45:2,7 49:6 53:5

70:18,20 83:21

90:2 136:10

150:9 156:16

182:4 230:7,16

234:9,16

241:6,15

276:12,15

278:13 280:15

298:16

323:14,16

changing 83:18,19

86:18 135:11

261:22

channel 133:6,10

312:18

charge 206:17

CHARLES 2:7

Charlie 4:19

18:10,11,12

26:11,14 29:13

46:17 52:5,6

56:13,15 62:6

71:19 82:13,14

85:7,8 102:18,19

104:9 136:17

142:5,19 143:8

164:5 192:2,3

200:20 204:2

229:7,8 249:12

258:15,16

263:14,15

264:10 280:6,7

283:5,7 285:11

306:6,20,21

311:14

320:13,14 333:3

341:16,17

354:18,19

364:8,9,21

366:14

Charlie's 284:20

310:21

chart 265:11

330:11 341:20

charts 173:20

318:13,19

338:12

cheaper 84:16

100:19

check 42:19 43:4

67:5 80:20 143:7

215:11

checked 224:18

331:11,17

checking 323:13

chicken 210:5

chilled 141:15

142:10,12

chime 185:13

choices 294:20

307:21 309:8

choose 79:14

126:14 247:22

286:6 292:15

293:18

chose 123:2

chosen 121:16

Chris 57:10,11

176:1,22 179:16

194:14 217:4,5

253:21,22 254:3

269:14 274:15

276:6,10 278:16

281:5,6 290:22

291:4,7 298:4,5

349:1,3 358:5

363:8

Chris'll 173:8

Christopher 3:5

6:7

Chuck 7:8

67:14,16 256:1

chuckle 256:4

circling 107:21

circulation

141:6,14,16,18

142:9,10 143:6

144:14

circulator 356:17

circulators 356:6

claim 311:1

312:15

claims 311:10

312:9

clarification 9:2

40:13 273:13

290:15 366:18

clarified 168:2

clarifies 29:11

clarify 9:19 48:2

106:17 120:14

173:16 178:4

clarifying 60:15

87:13 116:8

333:17 358:8

class 90:6 234:16

237:4 248:5

316:18 317:15

319:3 321:13

322:12 324:1

358:19 359:14

classes 102:3

198:8
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 13

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

232:7,11,12

248:2,13 325:20

341:19 359:9

clean 105:6 215:17

220:9 273:8

cleaned 106:14

clean-water 221:9

clear 22:11 39:11

60:7 71:22 72:15

74:20 97:3

116:20 122:21

127:3 139:16

142:16 167:13

176:4 258:1

263:16 264:21

308:21 313:10

356:13 358:2

clearer 279:15

clearly 17:19

117:21 129:15

216:13 293:12

clever 256:2

clicked 336:18

climate 158:6

close 17:5 97:21

123:21 215:8

252:22 299:6

318:15 320:10

321:10 322:22

323:3,4 324:1,11

328:20 330:1,8

332:14 337:11

339:18,22 340:1

341:22 342:7,9

343:7,9,10

close-couple

102:4,8,10

321:18

close-coupled

149:5

closed 271:14

closer 18:21

158:19 184:6,9

335:18,19

closes 322:20

closure 354:18

clothes 357:5

coalesce 211:7

coast 271:3

code 145:9

coded 144:19

codes 312:16

coffee 110:9

cognitive 268:1

COGs 255:5

coils 159:3

coined 255:22

collect 113:3

collected 237:7

257:13 316:4,6

collecting 216:4

collective 284:9

288:7

collectively 88:14

collude 205:3

collusion 204:8

column 339:17

combination 140:2

205:15 279:17

293:19 306:8,9

combinations

247:17

combine 248:2

combined 97:19

comes 109:15

125:9,17 152:19

237:2 306:19

320:8 323:3

326:3 343:3

350:10

comfortable 16:10

24:9 27:20

117:13 305:18

coming 11:10 47:8

75:14,17 76:21

181:12 215:15

245:13 267:5

294:22 299:9

300:1

comment 28:7

29:19 30:3,4,8

41:9,10 43:14

114:22 120:13

126:15 145:4

155:6,12 160:11

176:10 177:10

192:4 195:4

202:18 203:4

208:12 222:6

233:9 234:2,5,20

242:19 267:4

276:4 290:13

297:18 310:21

358:6

commenting 175:1

comments 8:10

30:18 41:14

148:21 156:14

195:20 226:16

299:2 354:16

366:8

Commerce 272:21

commercial 4:4

15:20 143:10

155:20

157:1,9,12,15,19

,22 158:1,2,14

224:2,4

225:14,15,16

226:7 239:6,15

240:5 270:21

299:19 355:20

commercial/

industrial 1:7

239:11

commercially

355:18

committed 212:15

committee 29:16

common 127:12

133:5 268:18

commonsensewise 35:13

communicate 39:5

communicated

112:1

companies 57:2,4

61:22 177:8

216:19 275:22

company 1:22

5:5,16 54:2

201:22 202:1

275:7

comparable

162:19 305:14

compare 196:5

244:15 317:7

338:22 341:20

343:21

compared 65:5

69:11 76:20

102:9,10 104:2

140:3,7,16 157:2

163:8 196:19

197:3,15 198:5

232:11 235:21

273:5 274:4
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 14

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

341:21

compares 164:14

316:10 335:11

336:21

comparing 9:20

252:21 316:3

327:13 329:7

337:8

comparison 181:8

244:21

269:15,22

318:14 339:20

comparisons 22:7

competition 208:8

competitive 257:1

competitively

206:15

competitors

206:18

complete 203:1

267:10 370:9

completed 339:7

completely 33:8

109:8 140:21

184:1 190:4

248:10 334:10

compliance 238:1

compliant 206:12

286:10

complicated 10:1

211:2 335:3

345:11

complication 82:4

complications

88:10

compliment

348:17

comply 127:17

208:18 285:22

340:14

component

114:7,11 185:3

311:2

components 222:9

275:9 288:13

292:19 294:9

303:2

compound 228:17

230:20

compounding

74:18

compromised

205:10

concept 287:5

311:16

concern 31:10

36:1 114:9 125:2

128:7 130:4

136:12

concerned 41:7

264:4

concerns 118:4

134:8 156:9

203:14,16

314:19 329:4

conclusion 45:6

264:18 332:8

conclusions

325:12

concrete 151:8

161:2

condensed 145:7

condenser 142:13

conditioner 207:5

conditions 189:18

conducted 97:7

conference 7:3

confident 136:10

confidentiality

322:9

confidently 16:13

configurations

241:7

confirmation

87:19

conformation

123:22

confused 68:16

77:15 118:8

confusing 50:10

194:11,21

confusion 162:20

192:5 193:19

Congress 357:5

360:18

conjunction 183:9

connecting 285:16

connection 55:17

conquered 356:4

consensus 25:11

56:7,11 63:4

86:8,16 90:7

132:8 357:6

conservation 4:14

235:3 313:5

conservative

123:14 160:5

243:14 250:1

consider 28:3

30:18 34:11

115:21 149:20

187:8 190:17

218:11 307:11

352:10 366:6

considerable 40:4

consideration

41:15 57:6 210:9

considerations

88:18

considered 26:8

30:20 88:18

137:21 237:10

298:3 302:3

345:13

considering 26:5

34:1 127:10

286:4 332:4

consist 236:13

consistency 338:14

consistent 140:6

224:19 325:10

327:12 338:10

consistently

324:12,13,15

338:11

constant

232:10,16 237:8

constraint 288:15

constraints 273:8

289:1,18 349:7

359:17

constructed 16:7

construction

225:19

consult 264:21

consultant 140:5

148:11 152:20

153:3 155:2

215:6 221:17

consultants 67:4

114:2

consultant's
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

140:16

consulting 299:20

consumer 106:11

143:21 165:4

169:15,16 172:3

175:7,10 184:16

190:9 195:7,15

197:21 205:14

207:14 235:4

251:22 279:17

280:9 284:14

307:21 355:4

consumers

130:16,17 165:9

169:17 172:4

179:15,18 181:1

182:12 184:5

185:17,19

186:21 187:4

189:21 197:16

198:6,8,16 208:3

235:6 243:16

250:2 294:21

309:6 346:22

consumption

235:16,17

239:19

contactor 133:3

content 40:17

44:9,13 167:15

298:9,10

contents 43:21

continue 9:9

44:9,10 56:16

197:13 249:6

306:17 365:12

Continued 3:2

continues 322:21

contractor 28:17

contractors 28:11

contradiction

141:22

contributing

217:17

contribution

349:2

control 122:8,14

124:9 127:2,22

128:5 191:10

289:10 290:4

controls

124:9,10,12

127:7 287:14

288:19 296:12

297:5

controls-related

121:12

conversation

110:15 135:16

193:20 213:5

221:22 224:21

308:4,13 313:11

conversations

130:1 210:13

conversion 47:20

50:15 51:9,10

52:3 170:18

171:16 172:2

188:4,10,15

207:16

217:1,3,6,7

240:8 244:1

245:4,8,9

257:6,14

259:18,20

263:4,11,13

264:1,2 268:8

270:1 273:21

274:10 277:9

298:2 346:14

convert 92:7

cooling 139:9

141:5,15

142:4,5,6

144:2,11,12

158:4 159:4

cooperate 353:11

copies 168:16

369:4,5,6

copy 171:8

corner 214:16

Corporation 4:18

202:10

corporations 57:2

correct 30:10

72:2,5 105:18

106:12,13 114:6

118:20 167:19

216:21 247:10

248:10 249:19

274:21,22 304:3

327:8 363:19

370:9

corrected 59:6

correcting 58:15

correctly 131:21

corrects 52:4

correlate 148:1

correlated 107:22

correlates 148:11

correlation 106:16

107:14,22

corridors 357:12

cost 49:6,9

51:18,19

52:4,10,15,16,20

,21

53:3,8,9,10,17

58:14,16,19

59:2,18 61:2

63:7 64:7,13

65:3,7,12,15,16

66:4

69:2,3,4,8,10

70:11,12 73:4,17

74:10,13 81:12

82:15 83:2,18,20

84:15

85:12,13,14,15,1

6 86:5,17 89:8

90:16 92:7,19

93:3 98:1,2

99:3,21 103:20

104:2 106:10

107:10,18,19,20

132:16 150:20

161:17 164:10

165:21 166:1

170:16

171:14,15

172:7,8 173:5,18

175:11 176:5

177:16,20

180:17 181:17

182:5 184:9

185:11

188:17,19

190:14

195:10,12,14

196:18

197:6,14,15

203:12 204:10

205:1

207:4,9,13,17,18

208:3,7 211:22

236:6 243:13

244:16,20

249:14,22

252:15,17

254:22 256:21

257:4,13

258:5,11

259:1,2,4

260:5,20 262:15

263:4,17 264:6
Capital Reporting Company

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

267:14 268:8

274:13 287:19

290:18 293:10

298:1 361:21

363:15

costs 22:3 44:1

47:20 49:6

50:15,22

51:9,10,17,22

52:3,17

53:11,16,17

55:18,21 58:11

59:6,16 63:6

66:19 67:19

73:16 80:16 81:7

85:3,9,12 88:9

89:5 90:18,22

92:3,15,17,18,20

96:14,18 97:20

130:14,21

131:12 150:3,21

151:16 161:6,8

163:8 164:16,19

165:4 166:2,7

169:14 171:16

172:2 173:11

180:12

181:10,18 182:4

184:8 185:21

187:1

188:4,10,16

189:17 190:3,16

197:19 203:21

206:8 207:8,16

208:2,9

209:17,19 210:2

217:1,3,6,7

233:18

235:20,21

236:2,13,15,17

240:19 241:11

242:1 244:1

252:9 255:6

257:6,7,14 258:9

259:19,20,21

263:12,13

264:1,2

267:17,18

273:21

274:11,16 277:9

298:3 332:19

346:16,17

361:19

Council 4:14

131:20 195:6

count 63:7 249:14

275:12 298:1

counted 53:2

275:19

counterbalanced

345:8

counting 43:10

53:2 59:3 74:7

217:18 312:12

country 271:9

counts 64:6,13

couple 7:19 8:3

13:18 20:22

21:20 25:18

39:15 43:17

56:14 97:21

130:1 170:4

197:13 296:19

298:22 308:5

324:11 330:8,13

332:14 337:11

339:18,22

341:22 342:7

353:5 366:4

coupled 84:19

215:8 253:1

299:6 318:15

course 24:7 42:16

60:6 81:9 247:22

254:18 334:17

Court 370:5,7

cover 7:18,20

21:21 39:15

126:1 199:2

258:9 296:13

346:7

covered 41:22

125:22 167:14

200:13 201:5

203:8 221:3

276:5 368:16

covering 20:22

covers 41:19 52:21

create 173:22

174:2

created 135:4

204:13

creation 301:3

302:22

credit 311:1,10

312:15

credits 66:8

critical 119:19

cross 265:11,13

282:13 334:9,11

362:6,14

cross-cuts 336:18

crosses 283:3

crossing 339:4,5

362:19

crosswalk 335:2

338:4,16 339:1,7

341:12

crosswalks 339:4

crux 135:16

crystal 71:22

CSA 353:8

cumulative

248:6,20

curiosity 228:15

curious 66:14

100:7 143:4

154:6 204:3

218:8 307:10

current 25:6

161:13 225:12

291:5 317:7

currently 19:15

50:15 90:5 132:2

202:13 224:16

237:20 250:15

317:21 339:4

curve 71:10 74:6

96:2 101:4,5

105:11 123:14

124:15 157:20

161:9 179:4

342:17,19 343:8

curves 124:10,11

242:9 341:18

customer 54:8

165:17

361:13,22

customers 139:8

141:6 161:6,8

180:10 183:10

239:6

cut 105:3 325:7

335:4 339:2

340:3

cutoff 319:2,10

320:12 330:12

cutoffs 39:8

276:21 334:17

CV 313:15,16

cycle 109:22 153:5

240:9

Cymbalsky 2:3
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 17

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

4:10,11 11:17

12:4,6 28:1,2

31:4,6,12 32:13

35:12 195:21

196:12,14

204:19 205:17

210:11 211:20

212:2,17

249:6,14,19

D

Dan 2:15 5:8

44:14 51:1,6

67:21 72:21,22

86:13 118:6,7

119:15 124:21

127:9 159:14

188:4 191:3,4

196:22 220:21

268:20 270:4,18

272:4,9 273:17

274:12 281:7

298:21 299:1,15

304:10 315:6

321:22 333:2

341:18 344:1

351:20 353:4

355:12 363:6

Daniel 3:4 6:5

60:4 81:16

264:15

Dan's 161:9

162:22 170:17

176:6 188:9,15

287:19

dark 33:8 267:4

dash 64:17 65:20

data 8:15 9:21

10:2 12:22

13:5,6 21:12

22:15 23:3 38:10

60:20 63:13,16

64:2,3,17,20,22

65:17,21 66:1

68:19 76:18,19

90:14 91:16 92:2

94:18 96:16

105:9 107:5

121:10 124:16

130:18 132:9

133:17 135:4

139:3 140:11

142:18 143:22

144:16 145:21

147:6

148:6,9,16,19

154:16 160:1

162:15

168:6,11,20

213:13

214:13,14,19

215:3 216:4

217:14 220:14

221:2 223:21

225:2,4,6 226:22

227:2,5,7 232:16

233:2,10,11

234:18 237:7,17

252:21 257:12

272:22 273:4

277:16 278:11

309:3 310:12

316:1,5 317:12

318:15,16,19

319:4,5,6,7,12

320:5,7,11,15,16

,20,21 321:10

322:8 323:15,21

324:2 325:3,4,17

326:3,7,12

327:11

328:16,18,19

329:13

331:6,7,13,21

332:2,6,10,11,20

334:1,3,4

335:10,20,21

336:14,16 337:9

338:11,12

339:5,6

341:3,7,9,11,12

342:2,4

343:16,18,19,20

347:4 348:15

352:10 366:18

database 140:2

144:19 145:1,8

148:9 152:21

306:10 319:11

dataset 149:12

316:4,6,22

321:17 322:4,16

323:7,8,11

326:10,15

327:17

329:8,9,10

330:4,22 336:17

338:5

datasets 316:7

318:6 323:1

325:15 330:6

336:18 338:2,6,9

date 171:19 188:2

222:2 262:2

281:12,13

283:15 347:16

367:14,21

dates 305:18

357:10

367:13,19

day 23:21,22

40:20 44:7,8

159:1 216:1

242:17 249:13

259:10 344:4

348:10 366:5

367:3 369:3

days 7:20 8:3 9:3

21:20 25:18

39:16,21 40:14

79:17 136:1

DC 1:14 4:7

deal 117:7 118:3

356:15

dealing 102:2

117:7

debatable 246:15

debate 21:18

25:10 246:14

debating 25:16

decide 22:14 24:12

77:3 109:3

132:19 211:8

267:3 289:5

293:17 334:19

decided 22:13 56:6

113:8 122:15

225:1 226:12

234:9 248:12

347:11

decides 111:11

decision 18:2

30:6,19 47:10

65:13 68:8 69:6

111:6 121:4

204:16 233:1

279:11 293:16

332:19

355:11,15

356:5,7,9,11,14

357:22 358:4

365:1

decision-maker

29:15

decision-making

283:17 354:22

decisions 23:10

47:9 117:1

294:15 298:17

354:22 356:3
Capital Reporting Company

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Page 18

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

deck 138:4

144:16,17

146:17 162:4

167:15 328:3

367:18,20,22

368:1

decline 245:8

247:1

declines 246:11

declining 227:12

245:20

decrease 64:8

233:1

decreased 52:10

63:6 134:4

342:11

decreasing 71:8

260:16

dedicated 301:13

deeper 52:11

59:21 70:6

default 127:5

294:8

define 78:12

222:8,18 275:17

316:17

defined 52:16 96:8

97:6 220:10

340:16,17 343:5

354:4

defining 97:4

definitely 123:9

126:13 151:9

168:2 190:12

247:10

299:10,12

303:13 342:3

361:7

definition 123:13

155:1 222:12

definitively 22:13

degradation

250:17

degree 202:2

degreed 202:12

Delaney 2:15 5:8

118:6,7

119:14,15

159:14,15

191:3,4,16,21

298:21,22

299:1,12,17

300:2,6 303:7

304:3,9,10,19

305:11,17,22

353:4

DELANY

118:18,22 120:4

delayed 363:10

deliberations

126:11

deliver 12:14

delivered 28:2,13

delivering 39:3

delta 161:17

236:17 324:19

335:18 338:8

deltas 247:8 324:9

337:6 338:7

demand 159:7

denominator

127:13

Department 1:11

6:18 22:13 28:3

111:13 138:21

201:12 272:21

departments 8:17

depend 55:12

277:18

dependent

294:19,21

depending 38:1

289:15 292:22

depends 113:20

153:11 246:21

304:22 309:15

depreciation

155:21 261:21

depth 123:10

313:12

derail 221:22

derivation 44:1,12

derived 177:8

described 44:2

130:6 292:18

304:1

describes 185:17

design 46:7 47:18

49:5 50:4 52:1

58:22 67:19

83:10,13,14

84:19 85:2,4

89:6 93:1

127:9,22 191:18

236:9 281:18

282:5,19 285:5

286:3,5 295:10

299:20

designed 92:10,13

295:3

designer 281:1

designers 281:17

282:4,5

designing 284:5

286:2

designs 220:11

desired 325:10

detail 36:22 40:4

131:16 134:22

165:12 194:21

198:20 266:7

310:15

detailed 44:11

145:8 152:3

170:9 352:18

details 123:11

124:14 139:16

228:12 352:22

determine 23:6

124:19 154:14

175:18 233:11

287:21 357:15

determined

144:20 172:12

determining

132:17 290:5

develop 17:18

301:22 302:1

303:1 311:5,16

developed 28:17

35:2,8 143:22

147:14 301:6

306:3 316:20

339:1 352:17

developing 115:17

301:7 304:7

development

28:12 67:15

298:2 306:7

352:9,20

devote 24:9 113:9

116:4

devoted 76:3

diagram 235:22

diagrams 235:14
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 19

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

dial 37:12 272:1

dialog 355:22

dialogue 26:21

264:6 280:13

296:18 355:6

356:13 357:21

diameter 167:1

dictate 186:5

dictated 26:20

350:20

Diego 5:15

dies 195:16

differ 106:1

337:7,10

difference 82:9

103:13 109:11

111:18 133:20

135:10 150:9

235:12,15,18

243:1,9 244:6

259:16 260:2

270:14 272:6

285:20 299:21

311:7 317:12

321:14 331:16

335:20 336:1,3,4

337:12,13

differences 209:18

311:9 322:14

327:22 338:1

different 9:22

11:22 17:9 23:5

38:1 55:12 68:20

80:16 91:5 95:10

101:4 109:21

117:20 120:8

130:19 131:22

133:18 141:7

148:6,16 156:21

157:4 158:9,14

162:15

163:11,17

181:14 182:22

186:3 188:14

193:7

207:2,15,19

208:9 210:3

221:7 226:3

229:10 247:2

248:1 254:13

256:12 282:22

284:13 302:16

323:5,9 325:19

326:7 327:21

328:2,8,9,10

330:13 332:22

333:3,6,9 334:12

345:7 348:1

359:8,9 366:4,21

differently

57:13,14 97:4

289:21

331:13,14 348:1

difficult 145:4

149:13 203:17

214:18 287:2

312:7 352:21

dig 147:20

digital 318:10

digits 266:2

diligence 49:17

112:16

dilute 241:6

dimension 280:3

346:13

dimensions 236:9

241:3,4 345:3

347:7

direct 244:21

direction 14:11

282:22

directly 33:9 55:20

97:11 150:12

151:12,17

162:19 185:10

244:15 312:4

322:8 331:5

Director 6:17

disadvantage

208:16

disaggregate

232:8,9,15

disaggregates

221:13

discharge 155:18

disciplined 15:12

discomfort 88:16

disconnected

134:22

discount 52:19

172:11 176:14

177:8 178:12,22

188:17 195:11

240:13,15 262:3

discounted 256:6

discounting

240:16

discrepancies

330:1 332:8

discrepancy

322:16 331:9

335:13

discrete 276:20

discuss 13:10

19:13 21:3 23:2

24:2 45:14 46:1

81:4 90:4,6,20

91:13 116:17

124:3

186:17,19,21

187:5 195:22

213:7 232:2

256:20 287:8

291:10

discussed 13:22

45:7,17 69:19

126:9 179:19

214:7,20 236:14

251:19 254:17

256:7 288:11

331:1 355:5,17

discussing 23:8

24:8 33:17

117:10 120:17

124:2 187:7

278:16 349:6

discussion 22:6,9

23:17 24:5 26:22

29:4 35:10 37:3

47:11,15 56:16

60:12,19 61:7

81:5 93:9 130:5

186:16 191:7,13

266:22 277:2

279:7

281:13,14,16

282:19 287:10

296:19 300:21

306:16 308:18

310:22

313:1,3,15

314:4,10,11,14,1

7 315:9 318:2

340:8 349:11

354:6,9 365:20

368:20

discussions 52:13

92:6 93:16 191:2

204:7 275:5

276:12 298:15

348:10

dissonance 268:1
Capital Reporting Company

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distinctive 167:21

distribute 100:1

171:17

distributes 226:2

distributing

234:17

distribution 15:19

133:5,10 141:9

143:14,17 244:9

343:4,10,13

distributions

139:6 154:12

237:6,8,22 253:9

distributor 133:2

divide 153:19

divided 99:12

docket 15:22 26:7

document 34:20

52:14 115:16

documents 269:3

304:12

DOE 4:12,22 5:3

12:20 13:11 21:7

22:7 26:3,20

28:10,17 29:18

30:9 33:14

34:4,6,14 35:13

40:7

111:15,16,21

112:1,2,15 114:1

119:10 126:10

160:3 185:14

186:2,12 204:20

210:12 212:5

218:22 242:22

246:12 265:20

266:8,14,15

267:3,4 279:5

292:8 307:4

311:18 312:6,9

316:4,22

317:2,7,9

318:14,19 319:6

322:3 323:7

324:10,11,17

329:8 330:6

335:21 336:17

338:6 339:5

341:9,12 349:17

350:9

DOE's 25:20

246:16 266:21

325:4 338:12

dollar 220:19

dollars 72:1 81:11

82:5 85:18,21,22

86:1 250:2

done 7:21 14:4

15:9,10 17:19

19:22 21:7 25:21

30:15 34:21 60:8

64:21 67:1,18

81:15 90:10

118:14 149:16

152:2 178:10

204:4 212:14

225:10 240:10

246:12 247:12

255:19 265:2

273:10 283:15

285:17

295:15,20

328:17,19

339:10 345:15

356:15 358:21

361:8 367:6

doorstep 281:1

dotted 331:8 337:8

double 42:19 43:4

53:2 59:3 63:7

67:5 80:20 143:7

275:11 331:10

doubles 73:17

doubling 74:5

Doug 2:2 7:16

14:12 39:19

43:12 44:15

68:13 315:8

348:8 364:20

downstream 49:10

247:13

dozen 206:10

draft 303:17

304:18,19

drastic 278:14

drastically 163:1

Dresden 301:21

302:4

drew 264:18

drill 279:19

drilled 146:3

drive 13:17 126:16

128:9,21 240:22

241:5 264:2,7

285:6 295:5,12

296:7,14 297:10

301:8,13

302:7,15 303:20

311:6 353:6

driven 71:3,8

223:6 294:8

298:11 353:10

drives 27:15

117:20 150:12

284:15 285:2

286:4 297:17

301:12

driving 180:14

228:4

drop 77:6,11,12

78:13,14,17

174:16 199:11

265:21 327:17

dropouts 327:18

dropped 60:22

61:18 90:8 92:21

152:15

dropping 62:16

drops 258:4

drought 271:12

drove 264:2

302:22 310:21

due 47:9 49:17

57:21 70:18 88:9

90:14 110:5

204:11 256:22

364:17

dug 70:5

duplicate 320:16

duplication

346:17

durability 107:15

duration 194:4

durations 154:10

during 14:3 25:16

26:6 40:20 41:10

86:8 168:22

287:9 313:2

366:5

dwarf 213:15

dwarfed 150:3

dwarfing 150:19

181:18

E

earlier 25:1 77:1

81:22 90:19 91:1

97:15 112:4

119:2 123:16
Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 21

(866) 448 - DEPO

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212:10 257:17

271:19 290:21

331:1 337:17

340:1 344:10

349:11

early 126:5 214:3

332:16

easier 82:12 189:3

210:21 211:6

368:8

easiest 330:14

easy 361:8

echo 210:11

Eckman 2:4 4:13

195:3,5,14 252:6

263:2 274:18

275:2,13 288:4,5

292:1,13,17

293:9,14,21

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everyone's 42:1

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fair 114:1 289:7,8

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342:6 343:3

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181:21 211:3
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honestly 331:10
Capital Reporting Company

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291:19

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increases 107:10

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increasing 190:6

227:17 228:6
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incremental 69:8

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INDEPENDENC

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77:1,17 95:9

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360:3

interest 53:3 116:1

256:9 348:5
Capital Reporting Company

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200:20 201:9

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212:1,5 214:22

217:18

218:14,16

219:11
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221:16,18 224:6

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271:14,15

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315:19 318:10

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350:20

351:2,4,6,16

353:15 356:12

357:11 358:2

361:7,8,22

362:18 365:2

368:8

ITT 4:19 26:14

29:14 56:15 85:9

102:20 143:12

164:5 192:3

229:9 249:12

258:17 341:18

I've 43:18,19 44:4

149:10 164:13

187:18 198:1

201:22

202:10,11

210:12 211:2

225:3 237:13

240:21 254:3

255:17 266:4

279:14 281:16

313:10 324:5,9

339:12

367:16,17

J

January 94:6

Jay 2:6 4:17 7:7

80:12,13

98:15,16

131:18,19

147:21,22 149:1

172:17 176:2,4

202:7,9

228:13,14

Joanna 2:16 5:10

73:3,10 97:1

154:19 196:15

206:22 219:16

244:3,4 252:19

258:22 267:11

305:19 306:1,22

Joanna's 269:2,15

job 10:16 13:15

38:22 50:9

348:18

jobs 108:15

John 2:3 4:10 28:2

30:13 31:2 33:15

112:4,16 119:2

125:16 196:14

203:13 204:19

210:12 212:9

join 202:7

joined 43:8 201:15

297:19

joining 166:20

201:11

jokingly 11:14

July 119:22

jump 22:1 162:19

227:19 244:22

277:15 337:14

342:11

jumped 162:17

295:18

June 17:16

40:14,15 370:15

justification 64:15

justifies 303:2

K

key 169:20 170:8

341:11

keyed 359:8

kids 202:11

kinds 241:7 295:7

knew 63:2 319:7

336:17 348:14

354:1

Knight 370:4,15

knowledge 149:11

Kohl 2:9 4:22

34:14,19 310:6,7

349:9,16,17

350:12,16,18,21

351:4,9 357:4

358:10,16,20

359:6,14 360:19

L

Lab 6:2,4

label 124:3

287:1,8,9 306:10

308:7,20 309:6

311:3 312:9

313:2

labeled 163:13

166:1

labeling 285:15

307:1,14 310:14

311:6 314:14

labels 248:16

307:22

labor 298:9,10

lack 309:3

lacking 21:12

359:19

ladder 74:11

lag 291:1 305:5

334:6 349:20

laid 16:12 26:2

119:12

land 79:7
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large 70:18 96:16

159:6

163:6,7,12,16

180:14,19,22

181:16 209:2

215:7 218:2

279:11,20

288:16 344:17

larger 57:2 61:22

197:3,4,6,7

286:9 321:12

322:12,15

largest 216:13

last 8:14 9:7 10:6

14:1 21:4,7

22:10 25:3 40:5

41:10 43:16 44:6

45:14,17 47:11

49:3 56:7 60:13

85:20 86:8,16

87:15 90:1

100:11 101:2,4,6

103:22 116:16

130:10 132:22

133:22 137:14

144:17

152:10,17

156:18 161:9

165:19

172:10,12 175:2

177:13,20 183:5

186:15,16

193:21 194:1

231:17 232:20

249:11,13

254:18 265:4,11

269:15 284:3

308:17 313:11

317:10 322:6

lasts 193:4,5 196:7

late 146:17

lately 228:6

280:14

later 47:7,15 72:14

76:4 80:18 81:4

86:11 90:4,7,21

93:9 110:19

122:10 160:17

165:12 173:9

176:2 179:17

205:20 222:2

232:1 240:12

242:17 246:7

256:16 318:3

359:20 365:16

latest 297:20

326:15,21,22

latitude 288:10

latter 222:19

Lau 3:5 6:7 173:20

174:11,15,19

175:3,20 177:6

178:17,21

189:2,6,9 217:5

253:22 254:2,3

255:12,16

256:6,17

258:18,21

259:2,8

260:7,9,11

261:12,15,20

262:14,20

263:6,10,21

265:15,18

267:20 268:8

269:17 270:14

274:21 276:7,18

277:8,18 278:6

281:5,6 282:18

298:4,5 349:3,11

358:5,7,12,17

362:6,9,16

launch 315:3

Lawrence 6:4

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lays 280:22

LBNL 322:6 329:9

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50:14,18 52:18

100:17 106:1

130:9,20

131:4,11,21

132:3,4 136:7

139:6 141:8

146:10 148:20

161:16 164:9

171:3 180:5,7,9

181:5 188:5,8

192:15 193:7

194:13 195:1

198:17 199:4,7

230:4 236:20

237:3 239:2

243:11 254:6

278:10 286:22

lead 31:7 77:16

253:22

leading 128:11

leads 31:16

learn 204:18

learned 108:11

least 16:11 17:12

18:19 123:10

149:2 279:14

321:11 332:7

346:16

leave 43:19 50:10

201:6 262:8

291:5

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leaving 49:15

53:10

led 223:20

ledger 346:18

left-hand 103:1

legacy 53:12

legal 204:7 358:18

legislative 359:17

360:18

legislators 360:3

lend 149:13

length 242:8

less 46:4,12 47:8

56:22 64:12 98:2

115:8 153:2

166:22 226:10

266:10 279:14

310:16

321:16,17 323:7

324:17 332:9,11

333:17

335:15,18

336:19 338:11

343:16 361:14

let's 4:8 43:13 50:1

103:8 110:13,14

122:13

138:15,17 140:1

149:15 151:4

152:18 192:12

200:21 218:10

231:12 234:20

253:18 256:18

277:14 284:2

315:5 328:11

333:11 355:15

365:17,18,19

letting 33:14

111:21 267:2

level 13:15 16:6,16

18:7 25:10 46:19

48:6,16,17 56:10
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83:12 84:5,7,17

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99:4,20 100:20

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124:6 132:18

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186:21,22

188:15 237:4

238:3 241:22

244:18 248:4

252:2 255:3

257:4,16 258:3

268:13 277:1

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287:16 288:1

302:12,16 308:7

310:15

316:17,21

318:21,22 319:2

320:4 330:5

335:4 338:22

339:3 349:21,22

350:9

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17:5,10 19:16

23:18 24:8 25:9

28:22 35:2 61:16

65:4,5 68:19

74:4 75:4

77:1,4,5 78:22

79:2,8 95:13,16

122:13,18

165:15 187:7

191:2 198:16

207:6 236:18

247:6,9,17,18

248:1 254:14

263:18

276:19,20

278:16 280:2

283:4 286:11

293:7 301:13,14

302:21 303:3

304:11,14 325:8

330:11 336:11

338:21

339:13,14

lies 18:7

life 132:15 152:19

172:20 173:1,4

178:1 195:8

196:4 249:15

lifecycle 22:3 44:1

130:14 132:16

164:10

195:12,14

361:19

lifetime 136:14

152:6,7,15

153:14,15,20

154:1,15 155:12

156:2

164:8,11,20

166:6

182:8,15,19

183:1 192:12

193:13,15

194:1,4 197:18

198:14 235:8

249:16,18

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192:9

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92:11,12

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limitation 297:7

limited 23:4 92:7

94:18 135:4

149:11,12 160:1

166:21 281:17

284:1 293:3

297:16

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line 41:13 51:8

58:13 64:17

65:20 89:17

97:18,22

111:2,19 126:8

226:6 229:16

265:9 278:1

288:17 289:4

320:2 330:19

331:2 361:19

linear 90:17 277:6

linearity 277:7

linearly 64:9 90:16

93:3 277:10

lined 335:21

lines 38:16 55:7,18

210:4 229:10

265:13 281:19

323:6 330:13

331:2,9 335:14

337:8 362:14

lingering 118:4

linked 33:9

list 123:8 167:7

169:6 237:2

listed 333:22

339:13

listening 201:13

202:4

literally 151:13

little 10:17 11:21

12:17 15:12 16:4

22:8 29:2 37:13

38:14 40:2 46:12

47:19 49:7 50:9

60:18 68:16 70:6

71:2,14 73:13

76:14 77:15 98:2

100:12 101:1

102:1 103:9,12

110:21 113:10

118:8 120:15

134:22 138:22

149:6 154:22

156:3,8 160:21

161:1 176:2

181:2 194:11,21

198:20 199:9

207:19 212:7

226:13 259:9

264:5,15 267:21

271:11

279:13,19 281:7

321:19 322:14

335:17 342:3,19

343:13 347:5

355:22 366:7

live 11:18 166:20

359:22

lives 253:11

load 25:12,13

120:21 123:20

133:16,18

135:1,16

136:1,3,6,20

locate 367:17

locked 330:4

logistics 39:18

long 47:22 114:12

183:22 190:3

192:4 298:12

308:19 320:20

359:22

longer 89:12 93:22

198:14 199:9

200:2,10
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long-run 292:21

longtime 361:6

loose 155:1

lose 197:16 206:3

losers 166:1 198:2

loses 266:12

loss 260:18

losses 25:14

123:9,14,19

342:13

lot 9:2 11:6,7,8

13:7 17:19 21:3

22:9 33:15,16

44:13 57:2 67:1

68:3 91:17

104:16 114:9

115:6 116:17

117:2,21 121:8

133:20 137:6

138:6 140:12

154:8

155:5,19,20

157:12 159:9

163:6,7 165:10

170:13

180:13,21

194:20 197:16

200:19 201:5

210:5,20

211:1,16 213:6

215:8 220:5

251:11,12 266:6

267:3 269:6,12

271:3 276:9

279:7 285:12

300:22 315:19

317:22 329:9

330:17 334:3

336:8 338:22

348:15,16

356:5,16 363:22

366:1 368:17

lots 8:16 285:17

Louis 2:5 4:15

35:21,22 37:11

78:20,21

95:11,12

108:20,21

109:14 115:1,2

122:4 125:1

151:10 158:20

220:17 265:7

271:17 273:12

282:7 340:9

350:3 360:8

361:8

low 61:15 96:15,19

98:5 169:12

174:1 322:15

lower 65:5 66:9,19

84:12 100:13

107:19,20

122:19 154:8,13

156:3 165:7

167:17 172:21

174:12,20

177:12 209:17

231:21 256:13

258:13

260:13,14

298:14,19

302:14 303:3

359:21 361:12

lowered 46:11

lowest 127:12

LP3 134:2

Lua 217:5

Lucas 2:11 5:3

7:13,14 8:7

14:16 15:14

24:14 26:13

32:17 39:18 41:2

77:1 79:13

106:17,18 113:4

118:15 119:15

138:20,22

186:15 253:14

265:5,6 279:2,3

283:19 294:12

307:2,12 360:7

367:10

luck 361:2

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lunch 125:18

168:10,22

199:12,20

200:3,10,21

201:9 203:3

253:17 369:7

M

magnitude 222:4

269:22 324:19

347:7

mail 169:2

mails 200:7 368:4

main 49:15 50:1

57:19 141:22

232:20 252:3

maintain 206:3

236:6

maintained 230:6

maintenance

236:1,16

major 136:12

146:20 150:6

majority 138:9

220:1 275:19

majorly 147:1

makers 297:6,12

makings 240:14

246:12 357:2

366:19

man 28:18

management

159:11 202:14

Manager 4:11

mandated 304:12

mandating 284:15

manner 33:2

65:16

manufacture

85:13 261:3

294:10

manufacturer

20:21 21:6 22:5

44:10 55:6 65:17

66:3 105:16

108:11 173:15

179:16 191:11

194:14 214:4

254:7,9 268:5

279:18 285:22

286:2,6,9

manufacturers

47:14 52:12

61:5,19

64:11,18,22 65:3

66:3 67:19 69:6

83:11 86:17 92:6

93:17 94:22

109:3 127:17,21

133:1,6 136:21

149:11 165:3,6,9

167:10 172:1

173:18 177:10

179:19 183:7

185:18,20

187:13 189:16

194:16 195:9
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212:11

216:13,17 217:1

219:17

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280:9 287:21

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8:11 110:16

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Manufacturers

5:22 257:5

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205:7 207:3,17

208:17,18 214:7

221:13 225:17

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264:6 280:22

346:21 355:3

mapped 149:4

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margin 206:3,4

margins 205:22

mark 2:14 5:7

6:20 8:8 14:19

15:4,15 24:15

31:1 41:6 46:15

47:6 48:3 55:3

60:5 61:20 67:12

72:9 76:5 78:2

95:2

109:6,7,19,21

127:19 130:6

133:7 134:10

137:8 139:14

141:12 147:3

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177:18 183:2

184:19 202:19

203:5 211:10

215:21 219:21

231:4 234:2

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276:10 278:11

281:21

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296:18 299:2

306:2 313:13,14

326:4,5 344:5

347:19 350:6

market 16:20

54:14 95:17,20

96:3,8,9 100:14

101:9,19

103:4,6,16

104:16 109:4

124:22 145:20

161:13 186:5

206:12 214:19

215:15 219:20

229:11 245:6

257:1 274:8

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293:5 295:1

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332:13 335:10

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340:11,13,15,16,

17 355:21

marketing

92:12,17

202:1,14

marketplace 54:13

86:2 90:9

92:5,14 93:7

95:10 100:19

101:13,17

103:21 104:1

105:21 106:3,5,9

107:5 316:13

330:21 332:1

363:2

marketplaces 95:9

markets 174:4

209:3 334:10

Mark's 187:18

203:3

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174:12 189:9

256:13,20

257:3,10,11,13,1

8,20 258:12

260:14,20

282:10,11

361:17

markups 101:8

173:21,22 174:9

254:21

259:15,17

261:1,3 361:12

363:7,9,12,14

mark-ups 297:20

Marmolejos 3:6

6:16,17

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match 37:18 38:5

225:6

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matches 217:8

material 41:19

43:18

materials 185:4

207:7

maternity 265:6

mathematically

144:7 262:21

matter 77:20

87:12 123:3

209:11 216:21

233:6 252:1

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maturity 354:2

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73:3,9,10,12,16,

20 74:1,19

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154:19

196:15,16 197:9

206:22 207:9,12

218:22 219:16

220:3,7 244:4

246:21 248:22

252:19 253:7

258:22 259:4

260:4,8,10

267:12 268:2

269:10 270:17

305:19 306:1

Max 184:15

maxes 340:6

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may 1:16 4:5

14:21 24:1 40:18

45:1 47:14

55:6,7 56:2 69:6

70:21 71:1,2

72:14 75:22

76:12 82:20

105:6,7 106:1

107:18,19,20

109:12 159:6

175:12 182:14

184:3 186:3,5

190:17 191:1

194:5 199:18

203:20 208:12

209:1 289:1

292:20,21 312:7
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349:6,12 352:17

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17:2,8 19:13

20:1,4

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22:8,15 23:11

27:5,17,19,22

30:12,17,20

32:11 33:4,8

35:3,4,6

36:20,22 37:1

38:8 41:20 78:22

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112:18,22

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114:21 116:14

117:9 119:4,11

120:6,10 138:3

139:16 141:14

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158:21 160:14

174:12 178:5

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190:14 192:11

198:21 216:12

218:13 220:8

222:17

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238:15 241:20

244:22 257:18

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351:12 352:2,3

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172:1 176:11

180:10 194:18

200:22 221:4

251:20 253:19

265:17 288:15

292:12 331:19

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29:10 311:8

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153:15,20

202:12 299:8

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256:8,19

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154:7,16 182:18

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meet 47:3 50:9

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185:21 210:4

287:22 288:11

292:20 294:6

313:5 334:17

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meeting 1:5 4:3

7:3 9:7,19 12:13

13:20 14:1 17:16

18:5 22:10 25:3

39:20 40:5,20

41:4 42:6 43:15

44:4 45:6,14,17

56:7 60:13 85:20

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116:16 122:19

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26:7 120:1

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meets 128:22

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110:15 130:2

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272:2

memory 308:15
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247:15 349:4

mentioned 20:5

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123:16 126:20

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278:16 280:1

290:17 291:1

306:22 307:2

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merge 320:7

323:13 339:7

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330:7

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message 184:2

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301:14 352:13

methods 57:21

331:1 338:15

metric

16:6,10,17,18

24:2,4,6,9 25:11

29:4,8,11 33:3

34:1,10 36:3

37:3,13 39:3

44:2 77:18

78:4,11,13

115:4,5,12,17

116:2 117:8,10

120:17

121:10,19 123:7

125:8 126:20,21

135:1 136:4

286:2 287:8,9

288:11 292:18

295:2 306:7,10

365:16,19

metrics 177:15

308:22 316:16

MIA 52:19 175:21

194:13,18

205:19 254:6,9

260:13 278:10

291:14

Miami 158:11

MIAs 362:6

mid 65:6

middle 104:18

175:16 186:2,13

187:3 198:21

324:20 325:3

347:10,11

midpoint 364:2

Mike 172:10 178:9

Miles 220:7

mill 9:14

million 73:2 82:8

215:5 218:10

219:1,13 220:19

221:8 259:21

268:10,11,12,13

269:19

millions 72:1,17

81:11 258:20,21

mind 7:19 24:5

72:22 156:10

158:17 159:2

210:18,19,20

211:1 313:22

347:15 348:20

minds 212:4

346:14

minimal 132:10

136:11 256:21

257:2

minimally 285:22

286:10

minimize 346:16

minimum

65:11,13,14

69:10 238:6

295:10

mining 225:19

minor 163:3

234:16

minus 81:13

149:15 188:9

261:13

minute 56:17

253:18 315:3

mis 69:14

missed 41:21

missing 217:15

273:20,21

misspoke 290:21

291:11

mistake 162:9

mistaken 311:21

mix 274:19

mixed 181:2

337:14

Mm-hm 46:20

47:5 54:3,22

55:9 56:20 60:10

62:7,11 67:20

73:15,19

75:13,20 76:2

80:6 85:10 88:7

98:21 108:6

110:1 129:1

147:17 151:19

161:21 189:8

227:21

Mm-mm 65:22

model 47:8 49:6

51:15 61:3

63:12,14,19 64:6

65:7 71:3

74:7,10 82:3,5

83:11,16 84:6

86:6 89:5 90:5

92:2,5,8,14

96:21 102:13

105:2 107:9

130:13,15

131:3,7 161:10

163:1 188:8

189:20 190:22

192:21 214:9,12

223:6 225:7

226:11,17

233:14 236:15

237:19 246:1

250:20 254:15

255:17,18 256:7

257:4 261:17

274:3 287:1

291:3 301:9

modeled 64:11

256:12

modeling 139:13

173:8 191:19
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modelling 83:2

models 46:2,4

47:10,12,13

51:14 54:5 56:9

61:17 63:11,15

64:3 70:4 71:4

73:21 74:8,15,17

78:14 80:15

82:20 86:1

90:4,8,9 91:21

92:4,9,16,21,22

96:13,17,21 97:6

101:21 105:3

269:5,6

274:1,2,14 323:1

332:5

339:16,17,19

340:2

modification

299:8

modified 222:12

module 245:6

Monday 247:2

money 52:16

172:22 173:7

178:7 258:7

260:3

month 70:1 144:17

146:5

months 303:18

305:6,10

morning 4:2,7

7:13 15:5 23:13

35:6 42:7 108:22

114:16 201:10

202:5 203:8

348:11,13

365:13 366:9

369:4

mostly 64:9 71:3

148:10 158:1

254:17 266:5

313:3

motion 203:1

motor 81:13 90:11

92:11 93:2 115:6

123:8,14,19

127:1,2,5,7

128:9,21 144:22

145:1 148:8

159:17 184:22

191:9 207:10

219:1 223:12

284:17 286:4

287:13 288:19

289:9,11,14,22

290:4 293:3

296:6

297:5,10,12

299:3 300:4

301:6,7,8,12

302:7,15

303:19,20

353:6,17 354:8

355:13

motors 37:19

81:13 90:13

115:6,7 117:21

140:2,11,13

144:19 145:8

148:9 218:3,9,10

223:4,5,15,16

224:19 225:11

226:21 231:18

234:10 237:11

293:2 296:11,14

297:4,6,8,16

299:22 300:1

302:20,21 354:1

Motor-sizing

25:14

mount 155:10

253:4

mountain 149:17

mounted 253:2

330:9 342:8

move 19:4 28:19

39:13 63:8 69:18

81:21 89:20

91:7,8,11 97:14

124:16 136:17

138:17 197:11

199:9 222:20

234:20 314:3

354:17 365:19

movement 271:4

moving 21:17

71:10 95:14

121:7 338:10

MPC 86:9 298:10

MPCs 254:19

263:21

MSP 45:15 90:11

93:1 100:3 101:7

161:10 163:1

multi-lateral

345:11

multiple 55:7

194:5 204:4

multiplication

74:18

multiplied 70:14

235:9

multiplying 248:9

multi-stages 191:8

municipal 157:1,5

225:20 226:8

239:17

mute 11:16

N

name's 6:16

narrowly 345:14

Natalia 1:21

nation 131:7 235:7

national 5:22 6:2,4

131:10,14 213:8

214:3,6 234:21

235:2,3,15,19

239:9 248:7

253:2 290:15

305:3 312:11

Navigant 6:6,7

172:12 178:10

217:6 220:22

254:3 272:9

281:7 316:4

322:4,6 329:9

349:4

Navigant's 337:9

NDA 316:5

near-term 8:1

necessarily 13:14

112:10

121:11,15 131:4

149:9 173:12

218:20 221:21

258:1 266:20

282:19 285:9

286:15,20 313:7

necessary 149:21

256:20 352:19

NEEA 95:12

108:21

negative 71:7,8

180:9 181:5

251:14

262:9,13,18

267:19 282:13

290:19

neglected 201:10

negotiate 19:15,20
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36:15 122:9

184:17 251:15

252:4 286:20

287:6 314:9,10

349:13,14

negotiated 26:19

122:16 212:5

325:2,8

negotiating 14:3

19:17 25:10

27:20 28:8

30:1,2 32:19

33:17 40:10

251:17 286:14

344:10

negotiation 27:1

184:12 210:8

213:14 247:22

281:11 283:18

296:3 344:18

345:12 354:9

359:19

negotiations 25:6

34:3 117:15

186:7 211:5,6

212:20 365:12

negotiators 210:17

NEMA 214:15

215:13 218:1

300:18 327:10

328:18

329:18,20

331:2,4

NEMS 245:13

net 131:15 165:20

166:1 173:9

194:19 213:8

235:3 249:21

258:18 260:16

267:19 271:4

282:12 290:19

nets 260:13

news 150:2

NIA 20:20 21:5

22:4 130:13

131:6 171:3,10

192:20 194:13

199:16 246:1

247:16 250:21

278:10 286:22

nice 201:9 307:20

nicer 161:1

night 157:13

159:1,10

nine 220:19

nobody 36:18

nobody's 205:9

no-cost 164:22

183:15 184:6

244:15

nodding 167:10

200:20

noise 83:22

non 221:9

nonetheless

303:16

non-HI 272:2

non-regulatory

309:14

non-submersible

215:4 221:15

NOPR 28:6

31:21,22 32:9

33:15

112:11,12,14

118:14,15,20

119:3,6,11 120:5

121:22 122:10

123:18 267:3

normal 207:22

343:6,7,11,13,17

normalized 272:22

normalizes 343:6

normally 113:1

208:10 279:5

307:15

North 109:9

216:13

Northwest 4:13,15

6:2 195:5

note 88:12

159:16,19

167:9,16 202:19

215:2

noted 248:10

339:22

notes 9:20 57:10

257:12 317:8

354:20 370:7

nothing 66:22 67:4

91:4 99:7 175:10

195:18 199:6

238:4 337:17

notice 279:8 315:6

noticing 114:17

noting 265:3

notion 297:5

NPV 235:11

242:22 243:15

252:11

NPVs 251:13

numerous 147:4

343:14

O

objection 49:2

objections 49:4

82:10 89:19

objective 32:2

37:9

observer 361:7

obtain 223:15

obtained 108:10

obvious 171:1

obviously 7:4

8:14,19 10:19

11:21 13:6 14:22

15:1 24:12 25:9

33:9 119:18

145:12 168:6

184:20,22

186:16 191:9

198:5 211:11

215:22 216:2

220:11 233:10

292:4 293:1,6

294:15 299:18

300:22 301:8

303:12 309:15

317:3 348:2

353:10,20

occasion 40:9

occur 181:6

303:15 344:15

345:2 354:10

occurred 357:7

occurs 164:18

odds 331:22

OEM 133:2

offer 136:18

offhand 144:18

office 6:17 158:15

offices 368:12

officially 302:4

offline 210:13
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offset 130:22

offshore 208:17,19

209:1 298:2

oh 8:9 68:1 76:8

80:21 132:2

146:20 147:13

152:19 160:20

162:3 208:2

228:19 238:16

243:9 252:13

253:10,14

259:19

272:15,17 273:1

295:19 319:3

338:4 341:7

349:3 350:14

351:4 368:11

okay 7:9 9:4,13,17

10:8,12 12:5,11

14:15 15:15 16:1

18:21 20:14

24:21 27:8 30:11

31:8 32:10 34:11

35:20 39:11

42:7,14 43:6,13

44:14 47:12,21

49:13 51:6,7,8

52:8 55:10,22

57:16 58:9

59:9,11 62:19

63:5,9 64:7

66:13 67:2 68:4

69:13,15,16,18

70:20 71:13

72:12 73:5 74:19

75:16 78:9

80:10,22

81:17,20 86:9,20

87:2 88:1,4

89:2,20 91:11,12

94:14,15 95:21

97:13 99:15

108:7,19 127:20

128:2,15

129:8,18,20

130:8 132:3,13

133:11 134:15

137:16,17

139:1,20 141:17

142:22 143:11

152:6 154:5,18

155:13

156:5,8,10,12,16

160:13 161:3

162:10,13,21

166:14

167:11,12,20,22

168:4 169:10

170:14,15

171:4,12

177:1,17,22

178:14,20

179:3,7,21 180:4

182:7,11

187:16,22

191:21 193:18

195:13,20 197:9

199:8

200:1,14,20

202:15,16 209:5

213:22 216:12

217:10 219:8

220:3,4,13

227:4,10 230:13

231:15 233:18

234:21

238:8,15,16,21

239:12 240:2

241:9 246:2,9,17

249:20 252:18

253:7,16 266:2

273:1 275:21

276:9 277:11

278:2 282:17

291:6 295:19

298:21 304:4

310:9 313:8

315:6,18,21

318:14 322:10

328:21 329:1

330:9 344:1,5

350:17,22

351:14 353:3

360:8 365:7,21

366:2,22 368:16

369:3

old 138:4 188:8,9

272:20

older 334:1,4,5

OMB 240:14

one-and 196:10

ones 50:20 95:7

134:11 146:14

157:17 162:15

198:12 209:3

234:5 238:12,14

252:6,7 271:22

333:9 338:7

367:16 368:5

one's 185:18

336:15 341:11

one-zero 294:4

online 43:9 297:19

onto 115:10

361:21 368:3

open 11:22 23:12

24:12

openly 203:15

opens 323:3

operate 135:2

303:6

operating 135:3

136:13 139:5,12

140:1,3,14

141:10

143:17,18

153:14,20

164:16,19

181:10,17

182:4,5 206:13

255:5,6

operation

157:10,12

opinion 360:20

opinions 285:10

opportunity 14:6

40:10,16 43:16

201:14 266:19

292:6 293:12

297:15 302:6

opposed 367:20

opposite 184:2

190:4

optimize 242:6

option 46:7 47:18

48:13 49:5,17

50:2,4 52:1

58:22

83:10,13,14

84:14,19 85:2,4

89:6 93:1 126:14

286:5 289:10

292:17 293:19

361:2

options 48:5 84:19

127:9 191:19

286:3 287:14,18

288:18,21,22

294:6 295:11

296:10 308:9

310:1

order 17:22 18:8

188:7 242:6

363:2

ordered 312:9

organically 230:16

organization
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original 24:11

51:12 52:11 65:7

162:5 167:6

175:20

367:14,19

originally 113:11

244:13 324:6

others 41:6,8

109:13 128:8

134:5 152:9

157:4 206:15

256:1 295:18

354:14

ought 44:13

136:21 137:1

297:1 365:3

366:16

ours 54:2 331:11

333:18

outcome 35:15

357:16

outdoor 15:11

outliers 342:20

outlined 352:13

output 151:14

256:11

outset 12:9 202:19

345:14

outside 216:10

217:1 222:10

outsourcing 298:1

outwardly 61:6

overall 39:14 89:6

197:7 198:7

281:8 284:8

292:22 323:4,20

overarching

212:12

overlap 57:1,3,5

109:13

overlaps 95:9

overloaded 135:6

oversee 138:20

overshoot 160:21

overstate 246:11

overstated 152:11

157:22

overview 131:17

214:2 234:2

owner's 155:21

P

p.m 200:22 201:4

P4 357:7

paces 110:10

Pacific 6:1

packet 203:2

213:2

page 57:18 191:6

pages 43:18 44:7,8

paid 166:6 169:14

pair 38:1

parallel 119:22

120:11 342:18

parameters 66:18

254:20 346:5

pardon 44:3 265:7

277:5 321:22

parenthesis 73:6

participant 43:11

participate 23:1

54:13 301:19

participated 28:11

52:12

participating

302:8

participation

312:15

particular 84:16

143:19 152:10

321:13 351:10

particularly

108:16 223:16

party 267:9

pass 85:5 161:6

175:6,10,11

183:19

184:4,7,14

185:1,9 187:1

203:21 205:2,11

211:22 234:7

261:5 282:11

361:21 363:2

passed 18:13

206:8

passing 161:7

172:3 203:12

243:22

361:13,14

pass-through

204:22 243:17

past 59:2 174:7

204:13 249:7

314:3 363:13

path 211:9 303:13

pathway 88:22

297:3

pattern 15:1 51:17

282:5

patterns 98:1

Patterson 5:4

201:21

pay 166:2 195:17

197:17 198:15

243:16

payback 169:11

183:22 198:10

paying 106:22

171:21 180:10

182:13

pdf 63:19

peaks 154:12

peek 43:16 91:11

Penny 370:4,15

people 37:14,15

54:19 62:2 70:1

72:14 104:16

130:19 141:9

163:7,8

166:1,9,15,16,17

171:21

180:18,19,22

210:14 233:5

242:2 244:19,22

282:6 283:22

284:4

per 48:6,15 56:10

64:8,9,12,14

65:7 73:17 74:10

75:19 77:10

78:18 80:4 90:17

93:7 95:22 96:3

97:4 98:2,17

99:21 101:10,16

128:22 157:22

166:10,11

188:12 215:5

218:3 219:1

230:21 231:5

237:3

238:3,4,11,18,19

243:12

244:7,8,11

248:1,14,15

261:14 265:13
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268:4,9,10,11,12

269:7,18 274:3

278:17 283:4

285:13 298:1

302:11,14,16

316:3,11,14,16,2

0 317:7,21

318:21 319:1

327:11,13,16

328:5,9,12,15

329:12 338:8,10

339:13 340:1,10

363:20,21,22

364:1,6

PER10 47:12 69:7

70:4,7 94:9

247:19

PER20 70:5

103:18

PER25 247:20

PER40 75:4 93:4

percent 31:14

34:9,16,21 46:2

74:14 78:17

81:12,14 90:11

96:13,14 101:10

104:13,15

144:12,13 175:3

257:15 265:19

277:19

percentage 53:15

86:3 90:22 91:3

96:11,20 98:3

101:21 130:19

144:10 145:19

187:13,20

197:6,7 198:2,3

216:9,11,12

219:18 250:13

257:17 274:2

275:15 285:4

291:7 337:10

339:2 363:1

percentages 94:20

144:21 188:21

189:1 190:12

214:22 261:8

325:19 330:12

362:5

percentile

101:14,15

performance 39:1

107:1 121:14

123:1 129:15

311:9 319:7,12

performed 104:2

319:8

perhaps 12:17

38:13 115:15

period 14:3 22:10

131:9 169:11

172:9,16

173:10,11 174:3

175:12 176:10

178:12 188:16

192:6,14 193:1

194:17,22

195:10 198:10

200:2

214:8,11,13

224:13 226:5

227:13 234:22

237:9 248:20

249:9 262:2

281:11 290:22

351:12,13

periods 267:7

359:9

PERs 241:1

person 130:21

personal 113:21

205:9

personally 46:22

50:6

personnel 289:18

perspective 9:1

47:7 54:20 89:4

132:15 150:8

151:5 158:18

175:6 198:4

213:17 251:12

273:20 276:19

281:7 289:7,16

308:1 319:4

324:18 327:6

341:6

perspectively

286:7

Pete 38:4

PG&E 5:14

phase 347:17

368:18

phased

94:4,5,9,12,16

phased-in 357:3,9

358:13

phase-in 347:20

358:18 360:14

phaseout 94:8

phasing 93:14

philosophy 301:18

303:21

photo 201:3

photocopies

199:10

phrased 312:5

physical 352:6

physically 197:4

pick 241:22

289:15

picked 196:1

295:11

picking 48:7

340:12

picture 87:9,11

piece 132:18

280:9,10 283:14

356:17

pieces 115:10

131:17 213:12

280:9 308:9

345:7

piggybacking

304:22

pin 211:16

pivot 319:17

places 181:6 198:2

273:11 276:21

282:3

plan 24:16,18 78:3

289:13 316:22

plans 64:11

plate 28:10

platform 34:7

93:12,20

109:9,16

plausible 217:18

play 108:15

109:16 278:3

299:9

played 266:9

playing 104:16

please 6:13,14,15

8:12 110:7,13

116:11 208:14

273:17 290:13

plenty 251:2

plotted 341:18
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plug 245:14 336:6

plugged 188:18

plugging 336:6

plus 44:7,21 61:12

84:21 126:22

127:4,5,6 149:15

188:8 191:9,10

275:15 298:1

point 8:20 11:6,10

14:3 16:2,8

17:3,11,20 18:9

21:8,15 23:14

24:3,22 32:9,18

34:5 36:19 40:6

42:2 47:6

56:18,22 57:10

63:1 64:22 65:1

75:12 76:6 79:6

82:15 88:15

104:18 117:10

119:2,17 126:1

134:3 135:16

138:7 141:20

149:7 171:18

173:13 174:4

190:7 202:3

203:2 208:21

211:18 212:6

241:13,17 245:1

252:3 262:8

264:9 271:2

276:22 277:2

284:3 286:14

297:9 303:9

318:21 320:5

321:20

322:13,14,18,19

324:13 337:11

350:18 352:11

359:2 362:19

364:6

pointed 55:5

211:11 231:16

pointing 62:6

points 12:12 25:13

40:22 79:13

88:16 120:21

123:20 135:1

136:3 171:20

282:15 301:15

318:1 319:19

320:3

324:14,16,18

337:10,13

pole 92:8,10 330:8

Poli 3:6 6:16

polish 46:18 47:3

polished 46:3,5

47:9 49:22

50:8,20 89:12

polishing 46:7

47:2 48:6

49:9,15 50:16

89:11 90:10

polishings 82:1

pool 215:18 284:1

356:6,17

popular 357:12

populate 327:10

population

70:5,9,15 90:15

131:5 192:22

193:2 220:16

225:21 270:14

319:10 321:16

323:9 329:14,15

332:3,10,11

populations 329:7

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69:14

remembers 60:16

remind 161:12

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200:22

removal 82:3

remove 40:1

82:15,16

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82:1 83:14

repair 153:5

154:20

236:1,6,16

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233:1

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repeat 268:19

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349:10

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67:9,10,22 68:7

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370:5

reporter 19:4

370:5

Reporter's 370:7

reporting 1:22

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19:18

repose 44:22
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7:2,12 224:1

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119:3 206:7

238:6 302:3

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requirements

209:1 302:2

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224:3

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133:7,21

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67:2,7

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91:13,14 93:12

98:22 99:2

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rule 20:16

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151:17 160:5

161:16 163:8

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295:7 297:11

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106:14,15

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160:4 280:8

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scales 163:10

181:13

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64:4,20,21 82:12
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scan 346:10

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162:5 164:22

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172:4 175:13

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190:19,20

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scope 25:6 27:6,8

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131:6 215:17

218:15 219:6,7

220:1,5

221:3,5,18

223:18 225:6

275:16,20 296:5

299:3,5 355:15

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82:6 91:1 283:1

317:11 337:2

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seats 110:13

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149:7 161:7

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202:8 297:5

300:19

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229:18 230:8

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226:15 231:20

236:10 277:6

285:18 356:22

367:18

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224:11,14

226:13,14

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149:12 154:8

157:22 202:17

208:15 215:15

224:3,7,22

227:19 251:22

272:1 274:5,9

308:6 357:20

seen 42:18,20

130:11 132:3

145:20 160:7

163:4 164:15

169:11 181:9

211:12

213:19,20 226:1

245:5 279:5

368:18

segment 179:20

199:2,4,7,14

segments

229:11,20,21,22

select 266:15

selected 223:7,17

selection 115:7

sell 109:9 127:14

287:12 288:14

selling 209:2 255:1

257:6 271:22

Senate 361:4

send 98:11 148:21

156:14 165:11

200:5,6 251:7

362:9 367:3,7

sense 14:8 17:13

51:3 54:8 114:8

119:8 135:2

177:6 219:17

257:19,20

262:22 265:12

266:3 267:1,14

269:22 273:16

286:10 324:8

349:13 365:7

sensitivities 150:7

sensitivity 137:21

149:10,14

151:22

sent 41:18 52:14

367:6

separate 20:1

109:19 112:14

136:3 240:4

293:6 312:18

317:16 318:1

separated 311:12

separately 70:15

92:10 117:5

173:16

serial 119:17

series 301:5,11

303:19

seriously 212:8

service 142:3

143:2 155:20

session 110:11

175:21 201:7

253:20 315:4

sessions 254:18

sets 212:18 293:7

329:16

setting 77:5

120:20 122:22

127:12,18

288:9,21 310:2

334:14

settle 70:16

settled 57:20 347:3

seven 69:21

219:1,13 350:1
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several 211:12

229:10 233:21

250:9 345:3,7

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299:8,11

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shape 102:16

share 67:9,10

68:2,10 130:4

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42:12,21 43:1,4

61:12 148:18

169:4 367:13

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sheet 12:14 13:19

17:18 18:14,18

19:22 25:21

30:16 33:13

40:17 111:2,9,19

112:9 118:10,12

119:13,20 126:8

sheets 19:10

she's 136:16 138:8

shift 187:2

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shifting 95:17

317:22

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252:21 271:19

272:2

shipments 20:20

21:5 22:4 63:18

90:12 91:21 93:2

96:17 130:13

131:3,5,7,8,13

171:3,17 192:21

193:1 199:16

213:1

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217:8 219:18

220:19

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254:19 255:3

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270:4 271:21

272:12 273:20

274:2,3

277:15,19

278:10 298:13

shoot 238:5

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227:15,16

shop 110:9

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92:1 292:20

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248:16

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85:20 94:19

107:13 135:7

138:5 153:10

157:11 183:15

188:4 226:11

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showing 154:6

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182:19 297:20

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233:17 247:16

311:7 339:1

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116:1 150:5

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192:16 193:8

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sit 101:16,17

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sitting 7:12 201:17

212:22 315:6

situation 55:13

159:18 204:21

207:1,22 266:14

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80:13 81:16

98:16,19,22

131:19 132:13

147:22 149:1,22

150:11,14,21

151:2,6,20

176:2,3,4,8,13,1

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178:4,14,20

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248:17

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six 63:14 69:18

160:9 166:21,22
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196:8,9

350:12,18

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Sixteen 175:3

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sketch 228:22

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342:18

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156:19 159:16

162:4,7 170:12

189:6 213:1,19

226:20 227:18

237:14 255:11

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367:18,20 368:1

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56:17 57:17

80:19 87:19

91:15 100:10

148:4 165:11

168:16 169:21

170:8 171:3

199:17 200:4

203:7 234:6

249:21 251:1

314:15 315:14

317:6 329:5

344:2

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slightly 133:9

135:6 188:2

288:19 289:13

321:16,17

338:11

slope 71:9

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slowly 227:17

small 45:15 49:21

52:2 56:18,22

57:4,7,12 62:8

85:9 86:2 90:2

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145:19 155:3

161:18

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180:8,20,22

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221:13 225:11

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109:10 127:6

222:14

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292:21 345:13

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Someone's 160:20

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62:18 78:16 79:3

104:21 105:4

138:4 169:6

175:13,16 186:1

187:3 211:13,15

212:1 219:14

237:14 287:4

317:4 321:8

322:17 347:10

361:22

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60:5 72:22 75:4

83:19 94:17

99:16 106:6

138:20 144:5

161:19 163:21

169:8 217:5

220:21 238:13

243:19 261:16

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299:15 302:1

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333:4 341:9

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43:21 44:5,11

66:8,17 76:9,14

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178:21 184:11

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256:10

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260:15 266:18

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310:21 311:3

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107:2 117:15

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spreadsheet 61:11

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329:19 331:7

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18:7 19:16 23:18

24:8 25:8,10

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27:1,10,14 28:8

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340:13 341:1

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Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 65

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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Capital Reporting Company

Meeting of Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 05-28-2014

Page 66

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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Capital Reporting Company

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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