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37–024 2007

HEARING ON THE IMPLEMENTATION 

OF THE UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

POLICE-LIBRARY OF CONGRESS 

POLICE MERGER 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON HOUSE 

ADMINISTRATION 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MEETING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, JUNE 27, 2007 

Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration 

( 

Available on the Internet: 

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/house/administration/index.html 

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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION 

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania, Chairman 

ZOE LOFGREN, California, 

Vice-Chairwoman 

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts 

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas 

SUSAN A. DAVIS, California 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan, 

Ranking Minority Member 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

KEVIN MCCARTHY, California 

S. ELIZABETH BIRNBAUM, Staff Director 

WILL PLASTER, Minority Staff Director 

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(1) 

HEARING ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE 

U.S. CAPITOL POLICE-LIBRARY OF CONGRESS POLICE MERGER 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 27, 2007 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, 

Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 11:36 a.m., in Room 

1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Robert A. Brady 

[chairman of the committee] Presiding. 

Present: Representatives Brady, Lofgren, Capuano, Davis of Alabama, Ehlers, Lungren, and McCarthy. 

Staff Present: Liz Birnbaum, Staff Director; Teri Morgan, Deputy 

Chief of Staff; Michael Harrison, Professional Staff; Matt Pinkus, 

Professional Staff/Parliamentarian; Kristin McCowan, Chief Legislative Clerk; Kristie Muchnok, Professional Staff; Fred Hay, Minority General Counsel; and Bryan Dorsey, Minority Professional 

Staff. 

The CHAIRMAN. We will now call this hearing to order, and I recognize myself. The Ranking Member, who will join us momentarily, 

has given me permission to start without him. I recognize myself 

for 5 minutes for an opening statement. 

As most are aware, more than four years ago Congress enacted 

section 1015 of Public Law 108–7, the Legislative Appropriations 

Act of 2003, providing for a merger of the Library of Congress Police into the U.S. Capitol Police. Since that time, the agencies involved were charged with the task of developing a plan for implementation. 

I am pleased to report that after much prodding from this committee in the last six months, the Capitol Police and the Library 

of Congress have finally worked through the issues, and just last 

week finalized their recommendations for implementing this long 

overdue merger. Since the matter clearly falls within the authorizing jurisdiction of this committee in the House of Representatives, we are eager to review their recommendations as the first 

step toward advancing an appropriate authorizing bill through the 

legislative process. 

Today we will hear the views of the two affected agencies: Capitol Police, represented by Chief Phillip Morse; and the Library of 

Congress, represented by the Library’s Chief Operating Officer Jo 

Ann Jenkins. We will also hear the testimony of the House Sergeant at Arms, Wilson Livingood, a security professional who has 

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served on the Capitol Police Board, which oversees the Capitol Police, for more than 12 years. 

Lastly, but certainly not least, are the views of Michael Hutchins, the representative of policemen and policewomen who will be 

directly affected by this merger and are in the front line protecting 

this Capitol campus every day. 

Before yielding to the distinguished Ranking Minority Member of 

this committee, the Honorable Vernon Ehlers, I need to express 

that I look forward to working with all of you in order to achieve 

a seamless and fair transition and expect for me and my staff to 

have you and your staff’s full cooperation. 

I now recognize the Ranking Member for five minutes for an 

opening statement. 

[The statement of Chairman Brady follows:] 

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Mr. EHLERS. I thank the gentleman for yielding, and I apologize 

for my delay. I have two markups going on simultaneously, so it 

is not a good day; plus the fact that I woke up in a stupor this 

morning after the late night of votes last night. 

I thank the Chairman for his remarks and for calling today’s 

hearing on the Library of Congress/Capitol Police merger. While 

bringing together these two organizations may seem like an easy 

proposition on paper, whenever you have two entities with existing 

cultures, established protocols and disparate missions, it is important to conduct a merger of those two groups thoughtfully and with 

due diligence. That is precisely what we are trying to do today. 

I welcome the opportunity to hear from the Library of Congress, 

the U.S. Capitol Police and others involved in this merger as to 

policies and procedures they have in place that will ensure that 

this union is successful and that it achieves the desired objectives 

of both organizations. 

To that end, there are several areas that I am particularly interested in and ask that each of our witnesses from the Library and 

U.S. Capitol Police address these concerns as they relate to their 

respective organizations. 

First, I want to assure all of the parties involved in this merger 

that you have my full support and that of my staff to complete your 

mission. Our goal is to make certain that you have the resources 

and assistance you need to successfully integrate your workforces 

and that we will do everything in our power to assist you. In particular, after your initial transition plan has been executed and you 

move into a phase where the effectiveness of the merger can be 

measured and your operations adjusted accordingly, we wish to 

provide a means to communicate with the Congress on your 

progress and impart any guidance or resources that your organizations require to achieve long-term success. 

Second, there are several areas where I would like to gain an understanding of your process as you continue to meld your organizations. For instance, how will your integration plans take into account the two distinct missions of your organizations? While the Library of Congress and U.S. Capitol Police both serve and protect 

the Congress and its assets, they do so in very different capacities. 

I am interested to hear from our witnesses today on how both organizations are working together to create a new shared vision that 

will apply the law enforcement expertise of the USCP to the unique 

needs of the Library. 

Third, how will we ensure that this merger doesn’t adversely affect the core mission of either the Library or the USCP? The U.S. 

Capitol Police is primarily charged with securing the Capitol buildings, protecting Members of Congress, staff and visitors, and providing an emergency planning and response function in the event 

of a terrorist attack or other unplanned activity. Its core mission 

is too important to set aside, even in the interest of completing this 

merger. 

Similarly, the Library has a mission to serve the Congress and 

provide essential materials to enable Members and staff to get the 

information they need to effectively craft legislation and perform 

other essential duties. For example, one very important yet incomplete critical undertaking within the Library is to conduct an inhsrobinson on PROD1PC76 with HEARING

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ventory of its collection, not only to have an accurate record of 

what materials are in its possession, but also to create a baseline 

for measurement of its inventory control efforts going forward. How 

will this merger impact the timeline for completion of this inventory? 

This and other important work within the Library must be completed in spite of the effort required to unite these two law enforcement bodies. 

I ask that our witnesses today provide this panel with the update 

on the effect of this merger on executing their core operations, and, 

if there is an impact, how that might be mitigated. 

Finally, I would like to get a sense from both of these organizations on how they plan to handle jurisdictional issues. For example, 

who will determine the number of officers deployed to a specific 

area of the Library; the U.S. Capitol Police, who are experts in proportional response, or the Library of Congress staff who have an 

innate understanding of the Library and its inner workings? 

Arguments can and likely will be made on both sides that their 

will should prevail. We must ensure that a hierarchy is in place to 

prevent such a breakdown in the chain of command before one occurs. 

Again, I thank our witnesses for the time today, and I look forward to receiving the testimony on this important effort, and I 

hope my obligations on the other two committees don’t keep me 

away from this hearing too long. Thank you very much. 

The CHAIRMAN. I thank the gentleman. 

[The statement of Mr. Ehlers follows:] 

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The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other opening statements? Before 

beginning, the committee received testimony yesterday from the Inspector General of the Library of Congress. Without objection, I 

submit this testimony for the record. 

[The statement of Mr. Schornagel follows:] 

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The CHAIRMAN. I welcome the members of the panel and ask that 

they summarize their statements within the initial five minutes, 

and without objection, the written statements from witnesses will 

appear in the record of the hearing. 

We will begin with the Sergeant at Arms, The Honorable Wilson 

Livingood; and then move on to Chief Phillip D. Morse, Sr., Chief 

of Police, U.S. Capitol Police; and then Ms. Jo Ann Jenkins, Chief 

Operating Officer, Library of Congress; and lastly, Mr. Michael 

Hutchins, Chairman of the Fraternal Order of Police, Library of 

Congress Labor Committee. 

Before we start, I want you to know that my dad was a police 

officer, so my heart, mind, body, and soul are on your side every 

step of the way. I do understand and respect the job that you do 

every single day. When there is a problem, we run out and you 

guys are running in. So you are among a lot of friends. I appreciate 

the job you do to keep all of us and our families safe every single 

day that you are here. 

STATEMENTS OF HON. WILSON LIVINGOOD, SERGEANT AT 

ARMS, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES; CHIEF PHILIP D. 

MORSE, SR., CHIEF OF POLICE, UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

POLICE; JO ANN C. JENKINS, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, 

LIBRARY OF CONGRESS; MICHAEL HUTCHINS, CHAIRMAN, 

THE FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS LABOR COMMITTEE 

The CHAIRMAN. Sergeant at Arms, you are on. 

STATEMENT OF WILSON LIVINGOOD 

Mr. LIVINGOOD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for those comments, 

and good morning. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ehlers, and distinguished 

members of the committee, I am honored to appear before you 

today to discuss the merger of police operations between the U.S. 

Capitol Police and the Library of Congress Police. Before I begin, 

I want to thank the members of this committee for their steadfast 

and unwavering support of the men and women of the United 

States Capitol Police all the time. You have helped make it one of 

the finest law enforcement organizations in our Nation, and we will 

continue to strive to be the best. 

As I begin this morning, I believe it would be helpful to provide 

some background concerning the merger of the policing and security operations of the Capitol Police and the Library of Congress 

Police. When the merger was first considered, there was general 

and widespread agreement among virtually all of the affected 

groups that the underlying concept of a coordinated integration of 

police and security elements relating to the legislative branch was 

advantageous. There was an essential measure of institutional efficiency and effectiveness of security. 

The lessons we learned from 9/11, the anthrax attacks on the 

Congress, and Hurricane Katrina all pointed in one direction; and 

that is an integrated and coordinated communications and operations structure with clear lines of authority, that is absolutely 

critical to an effective emergency response effort. 

The anticipated merger is designed to aid the congressional community in that objective. All have agreed with the concept of a 

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merger between the Capitol Police and the Library of Congress Police and the resulting benefits. Everyone also recognized there were 

many challenges involved. These range from operational and legal 

considerations, as well as employee protection considerations. 

With these thoughts in mind, the Capitol Police Board and the 

Capitol Police have constantly maintained that the merger must 

address these issues and be accomplished in a systematic, thoughtful, and appropriate manner. 

Unquestionably, there will be operational and administrative details that will require ongoing adjustments. However, from the policing and security perspective, any final legislative enactment, I 

believe, should provide clarity of the role, responsibilities, and expectations of all involved entities. It should grant the United States 

Capitol Police the unfettered ability and statutory authority to appropriately carry out the traditional mission of law enforcement 

and congressional security. 

Moreover, it is essential that the merger process provide the 

Capitol Police with adequate resources and a well-defined responsibility so that the Capitol Police are in a position to successfully 

carry out its fundamental operational mission of protecting the core 

functions of the legislative process. 

There are some items that are not covered by current proposed 

legislation. We are looking forward to working with the committee 

and staff to rectify the remaining issues regarding law enforcement 

authority. 

After hearing from other witnesses who intend to present opening statements, I will be more than happy to respond to any questions you might have regarding this important issue. 

Mr. Chairman, in closing I want to thank the committee for the 

opportunity to appear before you today. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. And you are welcome. 

[The statement of Mr. Livingood follows:] 

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The CHAIRMAN. Chief Phillip D. Morse. 

STATEMENT OF PHILLIP D. MORSE 

Mr. MORSE. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank 

you for the opportunity to appear before the committee on House 

Administration today to discuss the status of the merger of the Library of Congress Police into the United States Capitol Police. 

The United States Capitol Police maintains the honor of protecting the Congress, its legislative process, as well as staff and 

visitors to the Capitol complex. We protect and secure Congress so 

it can fulfill its constitutional responsibilities in a safe and open environment. As the foremost symbol of American representative democracy, congressional operations are a highly visible target for individuals and organizations intent on causing harm to the United 

States and disrupting the legislative process of our government. 

In 2003 the Congress provided for the transfer of the personnel 

and functions of the Library of Congress Police to the United 

States Capitol Police with the intention of creating a cohesive, unified law enforcement and security operation. At the direction of the 

Congress, U.S. Capitol Police undertook the development of a comprehensive implementation plan which identified how two organizations would be merged together, as well as identifying potential 

legislative, personnel and fiscal issues requiring resolution before 

the overall transfer would occur. This implementation plan served 

as a guidance and direction for the U.S. Capitol Police in implementing those components of the merger which were within the authorization and jurisdiction of the U.S. Capitol Police and did not 

require legislative resolution. 

Over the subsequent years, the U.S. Capitol Police has worked 

closely with the Library of Congress through a memorandum of understanding to provide daily operational oversight and direction for 

the Library of Congress Police. Additionally, the U.S. Capitol Police 

has implemented a dedicated division within the operational components of the department to provide for security of the Library of 

Congress as part of the Capitol complex. A U.S. Capitol Police Inspector heads the division and it is comprised of the remaining Library of Congress police officers as well as U.S. Capitol Police officers and officials. 

To accomplish the mission of protecting the Capitol complex, inclusive of the Library of Congress, the U.S. Capitol Police is committed to continuing to work diligently to effect the merger of the 

Library of Congress Police into the department in order to achieve 

the intent of Congress for a seamless law enforcement and security 

operation with a unified command and control. 

With the help of Congress and the Capitol Police Board, the department will ensure that appropriate planning and resources are 

in place to achieve a successful transfer of law enforcement and security responsibilities, provide for a reasonable outcome for the Library of Congress employees involved in the merger, and provide 

for clear delineation of roles and responsibility for the security of 

the Library of Congress collections. 

As chief of the Capitol Police I take great pride in the many 

years of service this department has provided to Congress. Building 

on that legacy, we, the United States Capitol Police, look forward 

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to continuing to safeguard Congress, staff, and visitors to the Capitol complex during these challenging times. In addition, we look 

forward to working with Congress, and particularly this committee, 

to effect the successful transfer of the Library of Congress Police 

in order to achieve the congressional vision of a unified law enforcement and security operation for the Capitol complex. 

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Dr. Billington for 

his support, and commend Jo Ann Jenkins and her staff for their 

full cooperation and guidance that has been invaluable in making 

this merger proposal successful. I thank you for the opportunity to 

appear here today and for your continued support for the men and 

women of the U.S. Capitol Police. 

I request that the full text of my testimony be entered into the 

record, and I am ready to address any questions you may have. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be entered in the 

record. Thank you, Chief. 

[The statement of Mr. Morse follows:] 

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The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Jo Ann C. Jenkins. 

STATEMENT OF JO ANN C. JENKINS 

Ms. JENKINS. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Ehlers, members 

of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you 

today to discuss the police merger of the Library of Congress and 

the U.S. Capitol Police. It has been a long time, but the Library 

of Congress and the Capitol Police are in agreement to complete 

the police merger and to achieve the goal of Congress for seamless 

security on Capitol Hill. We believe the draft legislation before this 

committee will complete the task that Congress began formally in 

2003. 

Dr. Billington and I have forged a productive and collegial working relationship with Capitol Police Chief Morse, and the assistant 

chief, and we thank them for the understanding of our unique institutional needs as we gained a better appreciation for their central goal in providing security throughout the Capitol complex. 

I also want to thank publicly Capitol Police Inspector Tom Reynolds and Inspector Fred Rogers and the many Capitol Police assigned to the Library of Congress for their dedication in working 

with us to operate an effective combined police force over the last 

several years. 

The Library of Congress is forever grateful to the outstanding officers of the Library’s police force for their professionalism and devotion to duty. 

A merger between the Library and Capitol Police force has been 

under discussion for some 20 years now. In 1987 Congress approved legislation mandating pay comparability between the Library Police and the Capitol Police and in 1990 directed the two 

forces to begin studying a merger. During this time the Library instituted a number of measures to strengthen security of its collections by integrating and updating physical security, preservation, 

and inventory management controls while further defining the central role of the Library Police for collections security. 

The Library also collaborated closely with the Capitol Police and 

the Architect of the Capitol in installing physical security enhancements, which were a part of the overall Capitol complex security 

improvements, such as the new police command center, intrusion 

detection systems, vehicle barriers, screening equipment, and security video cameras. 

Once the Congress set a merger in motion in 2003, our goal has 

been to integrate the two forces in a way that enhances overall security, maintains the historic statutory role of the Librarian of 

Congress to safeguard the Library’s staff, visitors, and the priceless 

collections and provides maximum fairness for our police officers by 

ensuring no one is harmed by this merger. 

We believe this legislation achieves these goals and provides for 

a period of orderly transition, culminating in a completed merger 

by the end of fiscal year 2009. The Library of Congress supports 

the police merger legislation now before this committee and respectfully requests its approval. 

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Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement and I would be 

happy to answer any questions you or other members of the committee may have. And I also ask that a statement by the Librarian 

and my longer statement appear in the record. 

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection. Thank you. 

[The statement of Ms. Jenkins follows:] 

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The CHAIRMAN. Officer Michael Hutchins. 

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL HUTCHINS 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, good 

afternoon. I am Officer Michael G. Hutchins, Private First Class, 

a 31-year employee of the Library of Congress and Chairman of the 

Fraternal Order of Police, Library of Congress Labor Committee. I 

represent the remaining 82 police officers and technicians in the 

bargaining unit of the Library of Congress Police. Thank you for 

allowing me to appear before the committee to express our concerns 

regarding the proposed merge of the Library of Congress Police 

with the United States Capitol Police. Our full testimony has been 

submitted for the record. 

From the inception of the idea of a merger, our members were 

somewhat elated that finally a seamless security was being established with us—emphasis on us—included to contract our talent, 

experience and attention to duty in securing the Capitol Hill complex. We were all disgraced when it was realized that somewhere 

in the process considerations were not given that a grandfather 

clause be entertained that would have kept all officers employed in 

their chosen profession. This would have mitigated for the loyal 

and dedicated officers that pride themselves on tenure and duty, 

who desire longevity in their position as police officers. 

Very disheartening is the distance and disconnection from us by 

the Chief of the Capitol Police and the Capitol Police Board. We 

think it is reasonable to have knowledge as to what is expected to 

successfully transition to this agency. 

Our members do want the merge of the two departments to become a reality, but we desire that it occur in the true sense of the 

definition of a merge. We deserve to have this accomplished in the 

most fair and equitable manner possible so that all Library of Congress Police Officers will be afforded the opportunity to transition 

into the United States Capitol Police and be allowed to continue to 

serve as police officers until such time as they are entitled to an 

unreduced annuity. 

As a result of the extensive delay of the proposed merger, our careers have been placed in a state of suspense. There has been no 

opportunity for lateral or upward mobility like that realized by our 

combined law enforcement partners that we work united with 

daily. Even small items such as attending to the statutory law and 

the issuance of the same weapons and equipment is stagnant, also 

showing no true urgency to attain seamless security. 

In closing, we confirm that we desire a merger to occur. It is a 

logical and practical goal. However, again we emphasize the hope 

that it would be accomplished in a fair and equitable manner resulting in the following: 

Number one, that all officers that meet the United States Capitol 

Police age and years of service requirement be laterally transferred 

into the United States Capitol Police, their complete system. This 

will make the Library of Congress Police whole and without loss 

of time or status. 

Number two, all remaining officers, regardless of age or tenure, 

be retained in their positions as police officers. This can be brought 

about by whatever your expertise deems possible. 

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Again, we emphasize that these dedicated men and women deserve the opportunity to work the required time in order to realize 

an unreduced annuity for their services rendered to the United 

States Government. We sincerely believe that the completion of 

this process within a reasonable period and in a fair and equitable 

manner will obtain the desired result of the seamless security 

sought throughout the Capitol Hill complex. With your help and expertise, this can become a reality. 

Thank you for your attention to this matter and the time you 

have allowed us today. 

[The statement of Mr. Hutchins follows:] 

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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Officer. I just have a couple of real 

quick questions, and then I will let others who have questions go. 

Officer Hutchins, everybody seems to be in accord with this merger. 

I spoke with you, and we are going to try to address it in the best 

way we can, but they talked about grandfathering people in. How 

many people would not be grandfathered in under the present 

merger? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Under the present proposal we received, 21 people would not be afforded the opportunity to continue in their career as a police officer, and of the 61 that would——

The CHAIRMAN. Please turn your mike on. 

Mr. HUTCHINS. I apologize. Under the current proposal, 21 officers will not be able to transition to the United States Capitol Police as police officers. They would be under the proposal for the civilian positions. Of the 61 remaining officers, several of them because of their age and tenure, wouldn’t be around much longer, 

maybe a year or two or what have you. I don’t have the exact numbers. 

The reason we took the grandfather clause was because of the 

fact that conditions that we were under prior to legislation being 

passed we felt warranted some exemption to this. We have an established retirement system that, to my knowledge, they would 

continue to fund it, we could become Capitol Police Officers. Under 

that particular retirement system, the Capitol Police would be 

under their retirement system. Somewhat like the Metropolitan Police which has two or three different retirement systems in that 

agency. 

The CHAIRMAN. You first said the first group of 21 that would 

not be able to continue, would not be because of age, so what would 

it be a result of? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Actually, most of the officers, not all of the 21, 

would not be able to attain 20 years of service before they reach 

the age of 60. So 60 is the drop-off number for Capitol Police. 

The CHAIRMAN. Because they started later? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Yes, sir. Also, some of them will have already 

reached the age and have enough time to actually get an unreduced annuity. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. I understand the pay is not the issue because we don’t really do the pay, that is subject to another committee, and the pension can be a problem, and age is a problem. 

I guess, Chief, talking about training, would there be a problem 

with the new people coming in and would they have to do some 

extra training to come up to a standard different than the Library 

of Congress as Capitol Police Officers? 

Mr. MORSE. Once they became Capitol Police officers, we also go 

through 10 weeks of training for the functions that we do as Capitol Police officers, they would need to attend the 10 weeks of Capitol Police training. 

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that you are trying to look at it 

from this point as a two year process. Hopefully if we can resolve 

this and come to some agreements with the Capitol and the Library Police, that could it happen sooner. If you are talking about 

10 weeks for training, that is less than 2 years. 

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Mr. MORSE. There are other things involved in the transition. 

For instance—and I believe Mr. Ehlers had mentioned concepts of 

operations and integrating those. In the first year we are looking 

at administrative policy, operational policy, assets, resources, identifying those, ensuring that they are in place. 

The second year is really evaluating the employees, placing the 

employees, training the employees, preparing the employees for the 

duties and responsibilities of the U.S. Capitol Police. The timeline 

is very specific, and it is a two-year process. 

The CHAIRMAN. One real quick question. The Capitol Police, do 

they retrain as they go, after so many years? Do they get regular 

physicals or anything like that? 

Mr. MORSE. Regarding training, training is ongoing, both mandatory and in service. There is also experienced officer training that 

we put our officers through routinely. As far as a physical, no. 

The CHAIRMAN. The only thought is when I first came here nine 

years ago, I was in a different size suit myself, and I thought 

maybe a little disadvantage for the Library Police to get new 

physicals and the Capitol Police don’t have to. I don’t want to see 

injustice done to them. But we do want to have fit police officers 

out there, even though we may not have fit Congressmen. 

I just wanted to know what would happen. I thank you. I yield 

to the Ranking Member Mr. Ehlers for any questions. 

Mr. EHLERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Your comments make 

me wonder if perhaps we need a job retraining program for Congressmen after a few years on the job. 

I note that your proposed legislative language was adopted by 

the Senate Legislative Branch Appropriations Subcommittee. I am 

curious: Have they done a detailed cost analysis or have you 

worked out a detailed cost analysis at this point? 

Mr. MORSE. Within the past few years there have been analyses 

done on costs. For instance, in the area of employee transfer salary 

and benefits, salary and benefits of new police officers, overtime 

salaries and benefits, general expenses—there is certainly not a 

precise cost, because we would have to wait for legislation to be approved for certain things to occur. 

The only remaining costs that we can’t be specific on right now 

are the physical security implementation costs, because that requires an assessment to see if the USCP and Library systems can 

be integrated without any issues. 

But we do have a cost analysis in those areas that I stated, and 

I can submit those to you for review if you would like. 

Mr. EHLERS. We would appreciate that. 

Ms. Jenkins, do you have anything to add? 

Ms. JENKINS. No, sir. I would just say that we have been working 

closely with the Capitol Police and we are trying to maximize the 

resources that we would transfer to the Capitol Police, and feel 

comfortable with the estimate they have come up with. 

Mr. EHLERS. Thank you. I do want to commend both of you. I 

know this has been a very long process. In fact, I at one point decided it would probably not be done before I die or retire. You 

proved me wrong. I appreciate the dedicated purpose that both organizations, particularly both of you, have put into resolving the 

many, many questions. 

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I have another question. Well, I can’t specify it exactly, but the 

drafts of legislation forwarded to us leaves several matters to be resolved through future negotiations between the Library and the 

Capitol Police. Can you describe how you can go about resolving 

these matters? These aren’t deal stoppers, are they? 

Mr. MORSE. We don’t believe that they are deal stoppers but 

there are areas that require some further analysis. And the issues 

that we addressed here to get to the point we are now at may have 

brought to our attention things that we didn’t think about and that 

we have to ensure are absolutely correct. But none of those issues 

are deal stoppers, and we look forward to continuing the relationship we have and completing the merger. 

Mr. EHLERS. So both of you are confident you will be able to resolve these issues in a timely fashion. 

Ms. JENKINS. Yes. 

Mr. EHLERS. Good. Thank you. 

Another question is the role of the inspector general, particularly 

in oversight investigations, but also investigations of any thefts, 

crimes and improprieties. The Library has its inspector general and 

the Capitol Police has their inspector general. Who is really going 

to be in charge of those investigations in the Library? 

Mr. MORSE. We both can answer this. Certainly there may be 

some change, but the way I always look at the merger and any 

Capitol Police operation that we transition somewhere else is that 

it should mirror what we currently have, and so I would say that 

the Capitol Police inspector general would continue to do the things 

that he does with the Capitol Police employees and that the inspector general of the Library would continue to do his responsibilities, 

perhaps with some more clarification, so that there is no overlap 

in their responsibilities; i.e., criminal investigations of our employees and things like that. I think that can be easily corrected. 

Mr. EHLERS. As long as they don’t start investigating each other. 

Another question: What is the role of the Capitol Police Board in 

determining regulations governing physical security in the Library 

of Congress? Perhaps Mr. Livingood? 

Mr. LIVINGOOD. Currently the Library has its own physical securities section, and after the merger the Capitol Police are going to 

be doing a survey to see what equipment they now have and to find 

out if this technology they have can be integrated into our system. 

Once that is finished, we are going to be discussing should the 

physical security remain with the Library of Congress responsibility or should it be transferred to the U.S. Capitol Police. If it is 

transferred to the Capitol Police, we would receive input from the 

Library, what they would need from the Library and the Librarian. 

And in matters of priorities—a lot of times the Capitol Police Board 

is asked to come up by the committees, what is the priority—we 

would, working with the Library, come up with a list of priorities 

both for here and for the Library. 

Mr. EHLERS. Last question. The Librarian is allowed to determine policy and procedures for physical security and collection security that the Capitol Police is expected to enforce. Doesn’t this in 

some way make an overlapping responsibility with the current Police Board? 

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Mr. MORSE. Just as we do with the Committee on House administration, and the Senate Rules Committee, the Librarian would 

maintain the oversight of rules and regulations within the building, 

and certainly because of the security of the collections, and the 

focus of the Librarian, that he would have oversight in how those 

things were protected. 

Once again, the Capitol Police would submit its expert opinion, 

recommendations, to ensure the safety not only of the collections 

but the people in the complex, and we would hope to come to the 

same resolutions we have with all these other issues that we are 

addressing. I don’t see any issue. It is a matter of us managing the 

police functions in order to protect. 

Mr. EHLERS. Once again I want to thank you and commend you 

for the progress you have made on this. It is not an easy task. I 

have been in negotiations of this type before and I am pleased you 

have reached this agreement and hope the rest is good as well. 

Thank you. I yield back. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Mr. Capuano. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Mr. Chairman, I want to follow up on your comments and ask Officer Hutchins, is it fair to say that the bumps 

left in the road mostly revolve around the 21 people that you mentioned that may not be able to continue their careers as they had 

planned? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Not continue their careers as police officers, sir. 

Here again, their heart is there. As Chairman Brady spoke of, he 

was a police officer and it doesn’t go away. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Is it fair to say that most of the bumps that remain in this agreement mostly revolve around concerns of those 21; 

is that a fair representation or not? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. That is fair; yes, sir. 

Mr. CAPUANO. What I would like at some point is I would like 

maybe some written commentary on the specific concerns of these 

21 people: What is it that is stopping them? Is it age, physical condition, whatever it is; because I am sure that we would like a 

breakdown, but individually. My guess is there are several different reasons that apply to different people and I would be curious 

myself to find out what issues you identify as specific to the individuals. 

Not now but at some later point. 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Yes, sir; we will get that to you as soon as possible. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. The gentleman from California, Mr. 

Lungren. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 

all the work that you folks have done on this, but according to my 

observations from when I was Attorney General of California, this 

seems to be making it far more complicated than it ought to be. We 

had a merger of State Police with the CHP in California. We had 

in my own district establishment of the Citrus Heights Police Department breaking away from the County of Sacramento Sheriff. 

We managed 25 or 35 joint task forces around California, led by 

the Department of Justice. 

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Man, in 2003 the decision was made to do this; we are now in 

2007; now you are telling us if we are lucky, by the end of 2009 

we will have the merger accomplished. What are we doing? I mean 

are we reinventing law enforcement as we know it in the modern 

era? 

Chief, I am perplexed that it sounds so complicated. You have 

got good men and women, good supervision, and you have the 

standards set. Why does it take 2 years, if we are lucky? 

Mr. MORSE. I agree with you. 

Mr. LUNGREN. No one else does. Four people say maybe we will 

get there, but we have got all these problems. 

Mr. MORSE. I have been chief since October 30, 2006 and in the 

last 3 months we have come to resolution on issues that have been 

around since 2003. One of the things that I found has made this 

very successful is reaching out to the Library of Congress, face to 

face, and discussing the issues frankly and coming to resolution. 

So I have proceeded very quickly with this. The Library has assisted with that. And with what I inherited I think that 2 years 

to resolve it is certainly long overall, but for what I was given to 

resolve, I think a 2-year timeframe is good. 

Mr. LUNGREN. So how many sworn officers do you have now, 

1,900 or something like that? 

Mr. MORSE. 1,671 is our authorized strength. 

Mr. LUNGREN. And we are going to add 83, as I recall. 

Mr. MORSE. The Library of Congress police authorized FTE is 

148. 

Mr. LUNGREN. I am talking about real live people. How many 

real live people, sworn officers, do we have now? We heard from Officer Hutchins that 21 are not going to be eligible. We are talking 

about the eligibles. 

Ms. JENKINS. We have 99 officers on the Library of Congress’ payroll now who are not U.S. Capitol Police officers. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Sworn officers, 99. Do you agree with Officer 

Hutchins there are 21 now that would not be eligible to transfer 

in? 

Ms. JENKINS. According to our Human Resources, we have 23 officers who would not transfer as Capitol Police officers but they 

would transfer as Capitol Police civilian staff. 

Mr. LUNGREN. So we are talking about, if that scenario remained, we would add 76 officers to 671 officers—no, 1,671 officers, 

right? 

Mr. MORSE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Officer Hutchins, how old are the oldest officers 

who are, quote-unquote, ineligible right now under this scenario 

that has been presented here? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Sir, the age in question is 57. Capitol Police, you 

cannot come on board after you have obtained your 37th birthday, 

and 57 is the cutoff. In order to get the other 3 years they extend 

to you, you must submit written documentation. 

Mr. LUNGREN. I guess my question is what is the age limit of officers? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Presently at the Library there is none, as long as 

we successfully pass the physical. 

Mr. LUNGREN. So how old are the oldest officers? 

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Mr. HUTCHINS. We have some guys that retire from Metropolitan 

that came on board maybe in their fifties. 

Mr. LUNGREN. How old would they be now? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Our oldest, I think we come up to 2020 where we 

would have to keep people on board if they retired in the system 

we are now. 

Mr. LUNGREN. That is not my question. The question is the age. 

Ms. JENKINS. The range of the officers are from their late 

twenties, up to early seventies. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Mr. Livingood, you have been involved in this for 

some period of time. Any reason why we can’t accelerate this? 

Mr. LIVINGOOD. I think that we have come an awful long ways 

and it has taken a long period, but as Chief Morse said, in the recent 6 months they have come an awful long ways. I think that 

now that we are ready, it appears to be a finalization of this. I 

think you have to have—you couldn’t do it tomorrow. It would be 

sometime after a merger has been signed. It has not been signed 

yet. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Didn’t we start Iraq in 2003? 

Mr. LIVINGOOD. That is what I say. Yes, sir. 

Mr. LUNGREN. I am saying Iraq. Didn’t we start Iraq in 2003? 

Mr. LIVINGOOD. Around there, yes. 

Mr. LUNGREN. We have got people telling us we have been there 

too long. That was a pretty big assignment. 

Mr. LIVINGOOD. I think it is a different issue, but I understand 

what your point is. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Yield back. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank the gentleman. Mr. McCarthy. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I can just follow 

up with Jo Ann, how many officers do we have in the Library of 

Congress—because you said 23, the officer said 21. Is the real number 23? 

Ms. JENKINS. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. Is it my understanding that those sworn officers 

on the transfer over would be civilian employees and be under CRS 

or FERS retirement system, just as the Library of Congress police 

officers are today. Is that right? 

Ms. JENKINS. My understanding is that the way the legislation 

is written now, if it were passed as it is, the officers would be 

under the Library of Congress retirement system for the period of 

time they were Library of Congress employees and they would be 

under the Capitol Police retirement system for the number of years 

they were under that system. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. How many officers in the Library of Congress 

are over the age of 60? 

Ms. JENKINS. I would have to get Human Resources to run the 

numbers. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. Do we have a guess? Because you gave me a 

range from the twenties to the seventies. How old is the oldest officer? 

Ms. JENKINS. I’m sorry. The Human Resources is telling me the 

oldest officer is 66, and there are 10 of them. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. Ten of them over 60? 

Ms. JENKINS. Yes, sir. 

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Mr. MCCARTHY. Now I’m confused because you told me in the 

seventies. 

Ms. JENKINS. I misspoke. The oldest officer is 66. By the time the 

police merger goes through. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. I have had information that someone once told 

me we had an officer that was 80 years old. Could we have the 

Human Resource person follow up? 

Let me move to Police Chief Morse. Your June 14 memo I have 

here, and I guess this memo is not signed off on, you state in fiscal 

year 2008 you require an additional 450,000 to conduct necessary 

studies in preparation for the integration of the Library of Congress security and information system. Additional resources will be 

required in fiscal year 2009 to achieve the full merger. 

Will you elaborate what that would be for? 

Mr. MORSE. That is for the physical security assessment integration, and that would yield us answers as to the total amount it 

would take to make that integration happen. So in 2009 we would 

be requesting money to make that integration happen if we 

thought it was——

Mr. MCCARTHY. I’m a freshman so you will have to walk me 

through this. This evaluation of Library of Congress officers, you 

are going to evaluate them or evaluate the system of how you are 

merging it? 

Mr. MORSE. The physical security systems, alarms, camera systems. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. Is that going to be contracted out? 

Mr. MORSE. Yes. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. So this 450, you have some estimates out there 

or is this a guess? 

Mr. MORSE. We have some rough estimates. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. So could come higher, could come lower. 

Mr. MORSE. Right. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. I just want to finish up with, if I can ask Jo 

Ann, Mr. Chairman, I think we have some numbers here that are 

quite different than what other information has been provided. I 

think the committee needs some follow-up especially between the 

21, 23, and the ages. If we can get a list of all the officers of the 

Library of Congress, their ages, and how long they have been on 

the force, that would be helpful to this committee. 

With that, I will yield my time. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Will the gentleman yield. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. I yield to Mr. Lungren. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Mr. Chairman, the reason I am a little upset is 

I had my staff talk to people at the Library of Congress yesterday. 

We got a certain number. Our staff had gotten a number earlier. 

Now we get a different number now. It is not the question of the 

number but, frankly, I don’t appreciate getting three different types 

of information from the Library of Congress about the way they are 

running things. To me, that shows disrespect for this committee 

that is supposed to have jurisdiction over the Library of Congress 

and, frankly, I don’t appreciate getting three different numbers and 

getting an entirely different number here. 

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As I prepared for this hearing, I based it on information that we 

received, and if we are going to take the time to ask, I expect to 

get an honest answer, and I don’t appreciate any different answer. 

This committee has jurisdiction over this, and frankly those that 

are under the jurisdiction of this committee ought to understand 

when we ask them questions, we expect a straight answer, not 

three different answers in 3 different days. 

I thank the gentleman for the time. 

Mr. MCCARTHY. I yield back to the Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I do agree with you. We ought to get 

the list of officers at the Library of Congress, with their ages, and 

also get a list of these civilians and how they become civilian officers; what is the effect of their pensions; what is the effect of their 

longevity. I think we need this information to us on the committee 

as soon as possible so we can intelligently move forward and we 

have something on paper that everybody agrees to, and I hope that 

will satisfy the members on our committee. 

Does anybody have anything else? If you can get that to us as 

quickly as possible because we want to get this merger done. We 

want to work it out. We don’t want anyone to lose their jobs. That 

is part of the reason we are asking questions, because we want to 

make sure we protect those people. We don’t want them to lose 

their benefits, we want to make sure they are made whole. 

I think we can do that by working together, everybody working 

together in unison to get a fair merger, which is what I understood 

and heard both sides would want to happen. We may have to do 

our due diligence and for myself—and I think I can speak for everybody on this committee—I know they are interested in trying to 

get this done. Anything we can do to be helpful to bring this to a 

complete closure so everybody is happy and on the same page, we 

would like to do that. 

Again, hearing no other questions—would anybody like to say 

anything else—this hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:27 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

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