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|   Fish and wildlifeArtificial ProductionArchive       Artificial Production Review Committee Meeting
**Friday, January 30, 1998**  |  **document 98-2**

NWPPC Conference Room, Portland, Oregon

At its first official meeting, the Production Review Committee for the     Northwest Power Planning Council's review of artificial production in the     Columbia River Basin identified a preliminary set of technical questions to     be sent to the Science Review Team (SRT). The committee also laid out a     schedule for its work and talked about how the review would encompass     resident fish concerns. A list of attendees is attached at the end of this     report. 

**Next Meeting: February 26 in Portland.**
**HIGHLIGHTS**- Sorting Out the Science Questions
- Where Do Resident Fish Fit In?
- Sampson Lays Out A Schedule for the Review
- Coming Up Next

**Opening Remarks**

Council staffer John Marsh, who chairs the committee, welcomed those     present to the first official meeting of the Production Review Committee for     the Columbia Basin Artificial Production Review. He said that minutes would     be distributed within 10 days of each meeting.

**Sorting Out the Science Questions**

The committee went over several sets of questions about artificial     production to determine which should be sent to the Science Review Team (SRT).     This group, according to the scoping document for the review, is to conduct     "a scientific analysis of the use of artificial production as a tool for     mitigation and enhancement of fish populations in the Columbia River Basin."     The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) and the U.S. v. Oregon     parties submitted lists of questions. There was also a third set of     questions submitted by other members of the committee, compiled and     distributed by Marsh. Don Sampson, consultant, noted that the tribes are     also preparing a list of questions, but they are not yet in final form. 

Lee Hillwig of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service noted that the U.S. v.     Oregon parties grouped their questions according to the five tasks for the     review set out in the scoping document. Trying to get a manageable set of     questions to the science team was our thought, said Tom Cooney of WDFW of     the one-page list he circulated.

What should we do with this big stack of questions? Marsh asked the     group, noting that some of the questions overlap. Give them to the     scientific panel, responded Bill Bakke of the Native Fish Society. Let the     scientists figure out which are redundant, he said. We need to distinguish     between the policy and technical questions, stated Sampson. There's no time     or money to answer every science question out there about hatcheries, and     there are policy questions this group wants to answer, said Liz Hamilton of     the Northwest Sport Fishing Industries Association. The science should drive     the policy, stated Jim Myron of Oregon Trout. I agree, said Bakke. The     science group won't look at all these questions, but staff or consultants     might, said Brian Allee of the Columbia Basin Fish and Wildlife Authority.    

**Marsh Explains the Tasks**

Marsh reviewed the tasks in the scoping document for the hatchery review.     Task 1 is "a summary of existing artificial production programs, agreements,     and law that mitigate for losses of Columbia River Basin anadromous and     resident fish." For that, I envisioned an update of the chapter in the     losses compilation the Council did in its fish and wildlife program in 1985,     he stated. That would enable us to know what all the programs are, Marsh     said.

Task 2 is the "scientific analysis of the use of artificial production as     a tool for mitigation and enhancement of fish populations in the Columbia     River Basin." The SRT would look at what science tells us about the use of     artificial production today, Marsh explained. For Task 3, "a summary of the     performance of existing and past artificial production efforts in meeting     mitigation and other stated objectives," we would hire consultants to     provide a record of how artificial production has been implemented in the     past 15 to 20 years, he said. 

We need to complete Tasks 1, 2, and 3 and get the results before we do     Tasks 4 and 5, Marsh said. Task 4 is "an evaluation of the performance of     the existing artificial production programs in the Columbia River Basin."     The SRT would take all the information on what's happening with artificial     production in the basin and make recommendations on how to proceed, he     explained. Task 5 consists of "policy recommendations, including a set of     general principles regarding the use of artificial production as a tool for     mitigating and enhancing fish populations in the basin, and an analysis of     existing programs identifying changes required to meet the general     principles." The Council would make the recommendations based on the input     from the Production Review Committee and the results of Task 4, Marsh     stated. Hopefully, it would not be just the Council, but the region, he     added. 

Cooney said some of the questions on the list Marsh distributed are     policy questions. I have a problem with giving policy questions to the     science team, he stated. There's a lot of redundancy in the questions, and     you need to focus them down so the SRT can understand what you are trying to     get, said Chip McConnaha, Council staff contact for the SRT. It's important     to finalize the questions for the tasks to be done first; the policy     questions will build from Tasks 1, 2, and 3, said Hillwig. I agree; we need     to get the questions for Tasks 1-3 delineated, said Marsh. That will help us     understand what can get done and what won't get done, said Rich Berry of the     Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife (ODFW). 

I don't want this committee to act as a filter on the questions, stated     Bakke. All the questions should go to the scientific community, he added.     We're trying to figure out which of the questions before us go to the     science group and whether there are questions that need to be on the list     that aren't there, stated consultant Roy Sampsel. 

McConnaha noted that the SRT will meet February 9. After that meeting,     the SRT will report back to us on how it intends to address the questions we     gave them, and they may tell us, we threw out some of the questions, said     Sampsel. Task 1 involves gathering existing information -- it's a "stacking     exercise," he noted. Let's get on to Task 2 and see if we can lay out the     science questions embodied in what we have before us, Sampsel suggested. 

The group considered WDFW's list, and Sampsel noted that it contains two     science questions. We don't need to debate them -- they fit in the science     category, he observed. The group agreed they should go to the SRT.

The committee discussed the Task 2 questions on the U.S. v. Oregon     group's list and agreed that most of them should be sent to the SRT. In a     few cases, questions were reworded. For example, "How can we expect a     naturally produced fish to survive in an artificial environment?" was     changed to "Can naturally and hatchery-produced fish survive and adapt to an     altered Columbia River Basin environment?" 

The committee went through 42 technical questions on the list distributed     by Marsh and identified them as falling under Tasks 1, 2, 3, or 4, or some     combination. Occasionally, the committee reworded a question. For example,     "Should hatchery and wild salmonids be integrated so that they function as a     single reproductive unit within a subbasin or should the two be kept     separate..." was changed to "Can hatchery and wild salmonids be     integrated..." 

The committee also reviewed the policy questions on the list and     identified several as science questions that should go to the SRT. What will     the SRT do with these questions? inquired Bruce Suzumoto of the Public Power     Council. They will collapse them into a set of "handleable questions" and     say what they can get done between now and June, responded McConnaha. You     won't get answers to every question, he said. The SRT will categorize them     in a way that embraces your concerns, according to McConnaha.

Should we prioritize the science questions to give more guidance to the     SRT? asked Steve Smith of the National Marine Fisheries Service. No, because     then you start filtering, responded Bakke. I can report to you how the SRT     boils the questions down, suggested McConnaha. We should either identify the     highest-priority themes for the use of their limited time, or we should look     at the categories they recommend and make sure they are the highest priority     for us, said Cooney. There's a big checkpoint in June, noted McConnaha. You     could ask for clarification for the next product at that time, he said. In     June, there will be "high-level generalized answers" and maybe later, they     will be more specific, McConnaha stated. 

The feeling is that this group shouldn't filter, said Allee. The SRT     should do that, but it is important for them to report back so we can ask,     does this make common sense? he stated. The issue is, are they going to     spend time on the right kinds of questions, Allee said. 

Are there four overriding things we could tell the SRT it should look at?     inquired Sampsel. That would give them guidance for the priority of what     they address, he stated. "They're big guys" -- we're trying to control     things too much here, commented Bakke. 

I think it would be helpful for the SRT if you establish general     priorities, said McConnaha. If the SRT knows there is one overriding issue,     that would be help in prioritizing its work load -- it would not be control,     it would be helpful, he stated. We don't need to get into the minutiae; our     role is to assist Council staff to comply with the request from Congress,     stated Myron. We expect staff to get what it needs by June to provide a     report to Congress, he said. 

Can we identify overriding or priority pieces of information to give     greater guidance to Chip [McConnaha] in presenting these questions to the     SRT next week? asked Sampsel. Hamilton suggested the need to look at     hatcheries as a mitigation tool. Myron brought up the need for coordinated     hatchery policy. The ultimate thing here is policy recommendations to     Congress, said Smith. The scientific analysis might lead us to policy     recommendations, and I want to be sure the basic data are collected to     address the issues, he continued. I don't think some of these questions can     be answered by anyone now because the data are not there, but I do hope to     get a substantial increment of improvement in what we know, Smith stated. My     concern is how to organize the questions we are sending to the SRT, he said.    

The key question is how we can most benefit the SRT process, stated     Sampsel. We have a list of about 100 questions -- if we could identify two,     three, or a few of them that have higher priority, it would be useful, he     said. If we can't, okay, Sampsel added. 

We have a diverse group here, and if we try to prioritize too much, it     will set people to focusing on their own interests, said Hillwig. Either     there are overriding questions, or there aren't, responded Sampsel. If the     answer is no, the list goes to the SRT, and they deal with it -- we know     they won't answer all 100 questions, he said. The questions provide     guidance, said Bakke. Are there overriding questions we can agree to? asked     Sampsel. No, said Bakke. The analysis the SRT will do needs to be in the     context of providing alternatives to the current management system in the     Columbia River Basin and helping make Task 4 recommendations, said Allee.     The SRT could get mired down in issues like disease pathology or gene flow,     he stated. The limitations are time and money, aren't they? asked Sampsel. I     can't presume to prioritize these questions for the science folks, said     Myron. But if there is an overriding policy issue, I don't mind trying to     determine it, he added. 

It's too early to prioritize, said Bob Austin of BPA. It would be nice to     get an early report back from the SRT so we can see where things are headed     and how the SRT grouped things, he stated. Not to be controlling, but so we     can be truly advisory and point out anything they missed, Austin added. The     SRT ought to focus on adding to the existing body of knowledge -- I trust     them to identify five or six major themes, stated Cooney. Let's capture that     intent in the transmittal to the SRT, and Chip will report back to us after     the SRT meeting, suggested Sampsel. The context is to develop useful     alternatives to existing production programs, given existing constraints,     said McConnaha. The SRT has to understand the purpose and end- product and     what it is trying to contribute to, he added.

The SRT should identify positive as well as negative things about     hatchery production, noted Hillwig. The SRT should say, here are the good     parts of what's going on out there, and here are the bad parts, and answer     the question, how do we weed out the bad and keep the good, he said. That's     the bottom line we are looking for in the policy recommendations, Hillwig     stated. Can you e-mail us right away after the SRT meeting? Smith asked     McConnaha. Yes, he replied, adding that it may take a week for the SRT to     define the five or six major issue areas.

Marsh indicated that staff will assemble all the Task 2 questions and     give them to the SRT and also will send copies of the list to the Production     Review Committee members. Sampsel said when the tribes' questions come in,     they should be arranged by task and also distributed. Sampson noted that he     would see that the revised list of Task 2 questions gets to the tribes so     they can review it. Sampson also mentioned that the Council has talked about     future alternative scenarios for system configuration and the effects of     existing harvest agreements. How will things like this be addressed? he     asked. The science community won't dictate the policy issues, said Berry. I     look to them to tell us what is the sound science, he stated. We know the     constraints and will have to deal with the policy issues within them, Berry     added. 

Should some members of this committee attend the SRT meeting? asked     Smith. It's a public meeting so anyone can come, responded McConnaha. But     I'd like to keep the input to a minimum so the SRT can efficiently organize     themselves and get down to work, he added. 

**Where Do Resident Fish Fit In?**

So far everything we've focused on has been related to anadromous fish,     observed Sampson. Do all these questions apply to resident fish? he asked.     The Upper Columbia United Tribes and the Colville Tribes told the Council a     month ago that they see a distinct focus on anadromous fish in the way the     hatchery review is going so far, and that they are not sure it will provide     a useful review for resident fish, noted Marsh. Three alternatives have been     suggested, he said: 1) do separate, but concurrent reviews; 2) wait until     this review is done and then do a resident fish production review; or 3)     don't do a resident fish review. 

Kirk Truscott of the Colville Tribes said their concern is with blocked     areas and that questions posed to date in this review deal with anadromous     fish issues that are not as important in blocked areas. We think resident     fish have unique issues that could be lost in this complicated anadromous     fish review, he said. Maybe it would be better to do the resident fish     review later and use whatever information is useful from the anadromous fish     review, Truscott stated. 

Congress told the Council to do a comprehensive review of artificial     production in the Columbia River Basin, said Hillwig. If the intent of     Congress is an anadromous fish review, we need to clarify that, he stated.     Sampsel asked if staff has talked with the Council about doing a later     resident fish review. We had a preliminary discussion with the Fish Four and     told them we added upriver tribes to this review, replied Marsh. 

"We can go to this well once for a drink," stated Bakke. We should     include resident fish in this review -- I'm not sure we can replicate this     evaluation for resident fish at a later time, he said. The review is     anadromous fish with resident fish rolled into it now, stated Truscott. I     don't see language in the Congressional bill that differentiates anadromous     fish and resident fish, said Myron. I'm hearing a desire for a separate but     equal review on a concurrent time frame, said Sampsel. How difficult would     it be to develop the questions for such an approach? he asked. It's     difficult even to get all the players together due to the remoteness of the     upper basin, Truscott said. He noted that the resident fish managers have a     meeting set for February 4 and that perhaps they could develop some     questions then. 

Should the SRT address whether the review should answer resident fish and     anadromous fish questions separately? asked Hillwig. When the SRT was     assembled, was it assembled assuming it would be for resident fish or     anadromous fish? asked Sampsel. It was focused more on anadromous fish, but     it wasn't exclusive, replied Marsh. Maybe we should see what the resident     fish managers recommend, keeping in mind Bakke's comment, which is that you     won't get a second request from Congress to do this kind of a study, stated     Sampsel. 

If the SRT thinks two reviews should be done, would there be funding to     do both? Hillwig inquired. These decisions need to be reached quickly,     Sampsel stated. My concern, which may stem from the way I've seen questions     posed for the existing review, is that we don't lose resident fish     objectives and goals, said Truscott. Maybe the questions can be revised, he     said. 

We support the resident fish review as part of the comprehensive hatchery     review, said David Arthaud of the Shoshone-Bannock Tribes. One of our     questions involves federal and state hatcheries stocking rainbow trout in     steelhead waters, he noted. We don't want that question left out of the     review, Arthaud stated.

I think we should keep resident fish in this review, said Sampson. There     is only so much energy, commented Sampsel. Truscott asked for the questions     from the committee to be sent to him so the resident fish managers can     discuss them at their Feb. 4 meeting. **Sampson Lays Out A Schedule for the Review**

Sampson outlined a proposed schedule for the review, noting that it     doesn't incorporate resident fish elements. If we add resident fish, we'll     need to make changes to reflect that work, he said. Sampson's outline is     reproduced below, along with a summary of the discussion. 

Proposed Schedule

**STEP 1: FEBRUARY - JUNE 1998     Task 1. Summary of Existing Production     Who:**NWPPC staff. **When:**First draft to Production Review Committee (PRC) by     mid-February for review. **Review:**PRC provides comment to NPPC by mid-March. **Complete:**Final report by mid-April. **Question:** Resident Fish? - Summary of Existing Production -- Schedule     and tasks to complete.

**Task 3. Summary of Performance of Existing and Past Hatcheries in     Meeting Mitigation Objectives.****Who:**NPPC staff and consultant. **When:**First draft by end of March -- PRC review by end of April.     Second draft by mid-May -- PRC review by first of June. **Complete:** Final draft by mid-June.

**STEP 2: FEBRUARY - SEPTEMBER 1998 Task 2. Scientific Analysis of     Hatcheries     Subtask 21:**Prepare policy and technical/scientific questions.**Who:**PRC/SRT. **When:**Final draft of technical/scientific questions by NPPC staff by     February 5.**Review:**SRT reviews technical/scientific questions on February 9. SRT     completes refinement of questions by mid-February. **Complete:**SRT initiates analysis of technical/scientific questions by     March 1, 1998. SRT provides schedule of product completion with review by     PRC. Reviews between March - August 1998. Final analyses by mid-September     1998. 

**Task 5(a). Identify Policy Decision Forum, Processes, and Timeframes     for Policy Recommendations to NPPC/Fish Four/Fish Managers Who:**PRC     identifies existing forums, processes, and timeframes. NWPPC staff drafts     alternatives and schedules for PRC review by end of February. **Review:**    PRC (and fishery managers) review alternatives and schedule and comment by     mid- March. Identify public review requirements by mid-March.     Recommendations to NPPC on FY 1999 Congressional actions/strategies by mid-     March. **Complete:** No later than mid-September.

**STEP 3: PROJECTED COMPLETION DATE - JUNE 1999 Task 4. Evaluation of     Performance of Existing Hatcheries based on Task 2 and 3 Analyses.     Question:**How do we best frame this task to prepare alternative policy     recommendations? **Task 5.**Develop, Review, Recommend Columbia River Artificial     Production Policies Develop Implementation Actions, Costs, and Schedules.     Report to Congress.

**Questions and Discussion**

**Step 1.**Do you have a public review process? asked Allee. Not for     this task, Marsh replied. Mid-February may be a little ambitious as a     deadline, given the list of questions we worked on today, commented Hillwig.     Are you using a standardized format for Task 1 so that resident fish people     can be on the same page? asked staffer Stacy Horton. No, Task 3 may be     closer to what you are looking for there, replied Marsh. The resident fish     people can provide a lot of the information you need, Horton said. 

**Step 2,****Task 2, Subtask 21.** How does this fit with what the     state of Oregon is doing? asked Myron. One of the issues Oregon's     independent science group is addressing is hatcheries, but a schedule has     not yet been established, replied Berry. They may decide to wait and see     what this committee does, he added. 

**Step 2,****Task 5(a).** Members of the committee noted that     public and tribal review of the alternatives for a policy decision forum,     process, and timeframe would be needed. In particular, the policy decision     forum issue requires more discussion, several members of the committee said.     I suggest a small working group be formed to look at all the existing forums     and develop a set of options for this committee to discuss, said Sampsel. We     need to address the offer the Council made last fall to expand the Fish     Four, he added. Where does that stand? Sampsel inquired. The Fish Four sent     a letter inviting federal agencies and tribes to sit with the Fish Four     during the fish and wildlife program rulemaking, Marsh explained. The     Council didn't get any replies to the offer and is thinking of sending     another letter, he said. 

The key thing is the decision process, said Smith. And the question is,     is the Council sharing it or reserving it? he asked. We shouldn't ask the     Council about this -- this committee should make a recommendation to the     Council, advised Hillwig. Staff should clarify what the Council wants in an     expanded Fish Four, and if the Council anticipates the expanded Fish Four     would be the vehicle for Council review of this committee's recommendations,     said Sampsel. He reiterated his suggestion that a small group define the     ongoing processes in the region, including state salmon initiatives and NMFS     efforts. I'll volunteer for the small working group, Smith told Sampsel.     It's important for the public to be able to figure out how all these     processes fit together, stated Myron. 

**Step 3, Task 4.**Sampson said Tasks 1 and 2 would drive the     schedule for this product. Hillwig noted that it has to fit with the 1999     appropriations process. March or April might be workable for recommendations     to Congress, but if the intent is to get into the Administration's budget     request, that has to be February, he said. They lock up the agency budgets     by September, stated Sampsel. Everything for 1999 is published and "ready to     be dropped next week," he said. While the process for 1999 is done, you can     still do interim recommendations related to 1999 budget issues, stated     Sampsel. Congressional committees will consider budget recommendations in     March and April, and they will go to markup in August and September, he     explained. The Council in the past has made recommendations about federal     appropriations, such as those for the Corps, Sampsel said. He suggested the     Council make a decision on the recommendations at its March 17-19 work     session in Spokane.

**Tasks 2, 3, and part of 1**will give us the data base and     "snapshot" of what's going on in the region, observed Sampsel. Does Task 4     drive your policy recommendations? he asked. It's never been clear in my     mind, said Cooney. Before we do Task 4, we need initial policy discussions     to allow us to have a framework of what we are trying to evaluate, he     stated. 

The scientific questions and broad policy questions have to interface in     Task 4, said Sampson. We have to look at the combination of the two and say,     what do we do next, and what are the alternatives based on the scientific     recommendations, he stated. We're missing a step between Tasks 4 and 5, said     Smith. Is it to say what the effects of the alternatives mean? asked Hillwig.     We could do Tasks 4 and 5 and then do a futures analysis, suggested Smith. I     wouldn't bother Congress until we've done Tasks 2, 3, 4, and a futures     analysis and packaged them into Task 5, he added. 

We've done quite a bit of work today -- couldn't we flag the relationship     between Tasks 4 and 5 as a major agenda item when we come back together?     asked Sampsel. It's a question of how to frame Tasks 4 and 5 to inform     policymakers, said Cooney. I'm concerned that regardless of what the     recommendations are, there's a concurrent need to deal with implementation     and fiscal realities, said Sampsel. Task 5 involves making the     recommendations operational and developing an implementation plan, he     stated. That goes along with the recommendations for legislative action,     said Hillwig. The Mitchell Act might be a potential implementation     mechanism, suggested Myron. 

**What About IHOT?**

We're struggling to figure out how the Integrated Hatchery Operations     Team (IHOT) audits fit into this process, Marsh said. IHOT has a proposal in     for $124,000, and the first work item is to prepare summaries of their work,     noted Sampsel. The proposal should be approved and IHOT directed to provide     the summaries to the hatchery review, he recommended. It would be good to     discuss the milestones and the need for timeliness for that deliverable     because I think the IHOT schedule could be a little off from this one, said     Allee. 

Why do you need the IHOT group to do this work? Why not the contractors     who did the audits? asked Suzumoto. What would the summaries look like, and     do you need a team of people to do them or could just a few people do them     more quickly? he asked. There's a lot of misinterpretation with regard to     IHOT, said Hillwig. The IHOT team is the best one to do the summaries, he     added. There was not enough funding so the IHOT process was never finished,     noted Berry. I'd like to see it completed, he said. Its results are a key     component for this process, Berry stated. It would be useful to quantify     what the IHOT product is, said Sampsel. If the audits can't be finished in     time to fit the schedule of this review, we have to think whether it is     worthwhile to finish them, stated Suzumoto. 

Marsh brought up the question of how legislative recommendations can be     put together by mid-March. At the end of next week, when the FY 1999     Presidential budget drops, a small group of "Mitchell Act people" and others     should be convened to talk about what's in it, suggested Sampsel. That group     could make recommendations to this committee in February on what we could     suggest the Council testify about, he said. Smith, Bakke, and Marsh     volunteered to be part of the group. 

I didn't realize this group was interested in pursuing Mitchell Act 1999     funding, said Smith. That and other things, stated Marsh. It's a key piece     of funding, Sampsel said. Discussions of the Mitchell Act may attract a big     group, not a small group, Smith observed. When will we know what's in the     budget? he asked. Next week or no later than Feb. 9, said Sampsel. It was     agreed that the small group meeting would be held from 1:30 to 4 pm on Feb.     19, with the place to be determined. 

**Coming Up Next**The committee agreed the next meetings would be held on February     26, April 2, and April 30. The February 26 meeting will run from 9 am to 3     pm. The agenda will include discussions of:: -- the full list of science     questions arrayed by task, including the tribes' questions and the results     of the resident fish managers' meeting; -- the report from the SRT's Feb. 9     meeting; -- FY 1999 funding recommendations to Congress; -- the first draft     of the summary of existing production; -- how Tasks 4 and 5 fit together;     and -- resident fish portion of the review. Adjourn

Production Review Committee January 30, 1998 Meeting Attendees

Bruce Suzumoto, Public Power Council Brian Allee, Columbia Basin Fish and     Wildlife Authority Bob Austin, BPA Tom Cooney, Washington Dept. of Fish and     Wildlife Lee Hillwig, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Rich Berry, Oregon     Dept. of Fish and Wildlife Jim Myron, Oregon Trout Randy Fisher, Pacific     States Marine Fisheries Commission Don Sampson, Consultant Phil Roger,     Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission Bruce Lovelin, Columbia River     Alliance Roy Sampsel, Sampsel Consulting Bill Bakke, Native Fish Society Liz     Hamilton, Northwest Sport Fishing Industries Association Steve Smith,     National Marine Fisheries Service Tom Clune, BPA John Marsh, Council staff     Jim Middaugh, Council staff Chip McConnaha, Council staff

Participating by Telephone:

Kirk Truscott, Colville Tribes Keith Underwood, Spokane Tribes Jim Hoff,     Washington Dept. of Fish and Wildlife David Arthaud, Shoshone-Bannock Tribes     Pat Oshie, Yakama Tribes Stacy Horton, Council staff.

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