### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS

WASHINGTON, D.C.

IN THE MATTER OF: SKYWEST AIRLINES

BEFORE: FAA DOCKET NO. 2012NM0650025 FDMS NO. FAA-2013-0292 Monday February 10, 2014 9:00 a.m. U.S. Tax Court 125 South State Street Room 5223 Salt Lake City, Utah

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN Administrative Judge

# RECEIVED MAR 0 52014 

### HEARING DOCKET 

# ORIGINAl

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### APPEARANCES FOR THE FAA: ROBERT SPITZER, ESQ. Office of Regional Counsel Northwest Mountain Region, ANM-7 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 1601 Lind Avenue, S.W. Renton, Washington 98057 425.227.1417 FOR SKYWEST AIRLINES: TODD C. EMERSON, ESQ. Director, Government and Legal Affairs SKYWEST AIRLINES, INC. 444 South River Road St. George, Utah 84790 435.634.3530 ternerson®skywest.corn

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### CONTENTS WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS AARON PERKINS 23 THOMAS H. BOND 180

Voir Dire on page 190 DAVID A. KATSILAS 248 THOMAS GIBBS 256 DENNIS M. BURR 297 EXHIBITS AGENCY NO. 70

273 318 166 176

293 337

1 SkyWest Air Carrier Certificate, A001 Operations Specifications 173

345

RECD

and DOSS Operations Specs . 44 2 Operations Specification A023 . 47 3 Photograph of Frost on Wing . 52 4A Salt Lake City International Airport Diagram, unmarked . 64 4B Salt Lake City International Airport Diagram, marked . 64 5 National Climatic Data Center 6 7 9 

### Weather Records . ACARS Recorded Times Dispatch Release Photograph of N426SW

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1 

### P R 0 C E E D I N G S 2 (9:00a.m.) 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the case 4 

### of Department of Transportation/SkyWest 5 Airlines, Docket No. 2013-292. 6 

### Counsel, identifyyourself for the 7 

### record, please. 8 

### MR. SPITZER: Good morning, Your 9 

### Honor. Robert Spitzer for the Administrator. 10 MR. EMERSON: Todd Emerson for 11 

### SkyWest Airlines. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 13 ,

### Emerson, does it look like the bulk of the 14 

### other cases are going to get resolved? 15 

### MR. EMERSON: It does, Your Honor. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And, Mr. 17 

### Spitzer, this is the only case you've got on 18 

### the lengthy docket I had. Is that right? 19 MR. SPITZER: That 1

### s correct, Your 20 Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let me -- 22 just a few preliminarymatters. I normally-- NEAL

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### 1 As Mr. Emerson knows, I normally take a break 2 we're not going to use that clock. 3 

### MR. EMERSON: It's already 4 lunchtime. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I threatened to 6 buy a large box of batteries and carry them 7 with me because invariablythe batteries have 8 been removed. 9 

### I normally take a break about 10 10:30. We'll probably break about for 11 lunch sometimearound 12:00. What I'll try to 12 do is break in such a way that we don't quit 13 in the middle of a witness. We generallytake 14 another break about 2:30, and then we'll

-- 15 we're going to go off the record at 4:30. You 16 need to be out of the courthouse by 5:00. 17 

### The reason is most courtrooms 18 throughout the country -- the CSOs, courtroom 19 securityofficers, go on overtimeat 5:00, and 20 nobody has got the budget to pay that, least 21 of all the department. So that's our time 22 constraints. I've got the courtroom through NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com6 

### 1 Wednesdayand actuallygot it next week, so if 2 the case doesn't get resolved today we've got 3 

### plenty of time in which to hear it. 4 

### One of the things I'm going to ask 5 

### you to do is any exhibits-- I don't care what 6 methodology you use to mark the exhibits as 7 

### long as you don't use the same -- you know, 8 

### you can't both use A, you can't bothuse ones. 9 But other than that I really don't care. And 10 I don't care whether you pre-submit or submit 11 as you go along. 12 Remember that everything that we 13 do goes on the record, goes on the Internet. 14 If we get to a point where there's some 15 information that the two of you either 16 individually or collectively don't believe 17 should be on the record, let me know. We'll 18 go off the record into a closed session. 19 We'll do that in a closed session, and then 20 

### we'll go back on on the open record. 21 Please review all of the exhibits. 22 I don't want any Social Security numbers, NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 ¥No/W.nealrgross.com7

1 dates of birth, home addresses, home phone 2 numbers, cell phone numbers or anything like 3 that because your exhibits go into 4 regulations.gov, which is an open Internet 5 publicly accessible website. So it's 6 especially true for the Agency, but it's also 7 true for you know, we we deal with 8 transportationmatters. None of this has any 9 business being on the public record. 10 Having said that, I need to let 11 counsel know that my chief judge and I are at 12 odds. I have sealed the record, and he's 13 taken it upon himself unilaterally to 14 disseminate the information to staff and 15 others in the office contraryto very specific 16 language ln the court order and my 17 instructionsto staff. So I haven't been able 18 to figure out how to stop that. I'm not going 19 to bore you with my feelings on the matter. 20 But I need to warn you that he's unilaterally 21 disseminatedit to and the bulk of it is to 22 internists who are nothing more than law NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com8 1 

### students. Let's see. I can't think of 2 anything else. 3 

### Mr. Emerson, you've heard my 4 statements. Have I forgotten anything? 5 

### MR. EMERSON: No, sir. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But my 7 

### biggest concern is that we keep confidential 8 

### informationout of the record. And, you know, 9 

### we may as we go along come in something that 10 

### one or both of you may want to keep out of the 11 

### record, so let's

-- let's make sure that we do 12 

### that. 13 

### Mr. Spitzer, you want to make an 14 

### opening statement. 15 

### MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 16 

### But before I do that I would like to clear up 17 

### two preliminary matters. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 19 

### MR. SPITZER: To begin with the 20 

### Administrator would like to request a 21 

### sequestrationorderfor fact witnesses in this 22 case except -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com9 

### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Any 2 objection, Mr. Emerson? 3 

### MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Every time I turn 5 around you guys have got another airplane ln 6 an airport that I've flown into. 7 Sequestration means that all the 8 witnesses are going to -- ask you to step out 9 of the courtroom. The Respondent and the 10 Agency are bothpermittedone expert to remain 11 at the table with them; in other words, that 12 that person may testify, they may not 13 

### testify. They're considered an expert or 14 

### consulting witness. They can stay in. All 

### 15 other potential witnesses are going to be 16 excused from the courtroomwhile testimony is 17 being taken. 18 

### From this point on none of the 19 witnesses should discuss their current, past, 20 or future testimony with any other witness. 21 So I'm sure the attorneys have all

-- Counsel, 22 you will now -- give Counsel a minute or two NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 10

1 

### to refresh their memory. 2 When you're called in, you'll 3 

### testify. I can't remember where the witness 4 

### stand is over there. I've traveled all 5 

### over the country and I've told the CSO when I 6 

### came in I can't remember what floor I'm 7 

### supposed to go on half the time. 8 

### You' 11 

### testify. You' 11 

### be 9 admonishedagainnot to discuss your testimony 10 and you'll be excused. If you have any 11 question about whether you can discuss 12 anything, talk with your attorney. These are 13 

### two excellent trial attorneys. They're 14 skilled in trial practice, and they know what 15 the rules of conduct are. 16 So why don't we take a -- now, Mr. 17 Emerson, I see you've got a binder. 18 

### I don't know whether you've got a 19 binder now, Mr. Spitzer. But if you want to 20 take a minute to approach and give those to 21 the Court, that's fine. If you want to do it 22 as you go along, that's fine. We'll leave it NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005·3701 1/1/WW.nealrgross.com11 

### 1 up here. Let's take a minute. 2 We're going to go off the record 3 for just a couple minutes, allow the attorneys 4 

### to talk with their potential witnesses. I 

### 5 don't think there's a cafeteria in the 6 building, so I'm going to leave it to the two 7 of you to figure out where you're going to 8 

### send the witnesses. There's always Harmons 9 across the street that's got coffee. 10 

### MR. EMERSON: There's two waiting 11 rooms across the hall

-- 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 13 

### MR. EMERSON:

-- or directly out 14 this door that the witness can 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 16 

### MR. EMERSON: can be handy. 17 And then, yes, there's, I think, a snack bar 18 here in the building, but not food. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Actually I was -- 20 guy on the elevatortoldme we don't have that 21 anymore. I don't know if the

-- they used to, 22 didn't they

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### 12

1 

### MR. EMERSON: That's right. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: down in the 3 basement? 4 

### MR. EMERSON: Yeah. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: But Harmons is 6 fun. It's one of those places you can't get 7 out. The coffee shop is on the second floor 8 of Harmons. 9 

### All right. We're going to have 10 the record for just a couple of minutes. As 11 soon as Counsel is ready, we'll proceed. 12 We're off the record. 13 (Brief pause.) 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: One other thing 15 

### I'd like to do this is for the court 16 

### reporter. If we get to any point in the 17 hearing where the court reporter is unsure 18 about the spelling of something, just raise 19 

### your hand. That's a cue to Counsel to stop 20 convenientlythereto and spell whatever it is 21 you're talkingabout. She probablydoes cases 22 for every agency you've ever heard of. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 II'NNtf.nealrgross.com13 

### 1 Sometimes we use acronyms that we're used to 2 and she may -- this way at midnight tonight 3 

### she's not like what in the heck were they 4 

### saying at 9:30 this afternoon [verbatim]. 5 

### And just to reiterate that one 6 point that I made. You know, while I

-- while 7 I canpersonallyguaranteethe confidentiality 8 of material we put into the record. I can't 9 guarantee that the chief judge is not going to 10 unilaterallydisseminateit, and inviteyou to 11 take whatever action you want to on that 12 point. 13 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, since 14 typicallyyou'd ask the witness to give their 15 address and establish where they're from 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Business. 17 

### MR. EMERSON: it's okay to 18 dispense with that? 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, yeah. 20 

### Typically as attorneys, you know, it's 21 preliminary, gets the witness relaxed. I'd 

### 22 encourage you to use the business address or NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 14

1 

### skip it, I mean, period. If we're doing 2 domestic work or doing a lot of other stuff, 3 

### it's important. I think in our cases I'd 4 encourage them to use business phone numbers, 5 businessaddresses if that's necessaryor skip 6 

### it if you want to. You know, it's a 7 preliminaryintroductorymatter I think in our 8 

### cases. You know, use your judgment on that. 9 The case is not going to turn on whether I've 10 got the home phone number of a witness. 11 Mr. Spitzer? 12 MR. EMERSON: Before again, Your 13 Honor

-- 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 15 

### MR. EMERSON:

-- so to designate 16 who's in the courtroom for SkyWest now, Dr. 17 Kevin Perry, who is our expert consultant 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 19 

### MR. EMERSON:

-- and is expected 20 to testify and Shane Losee, who is a director 21 of flight operations at SkyWest Airlines. 22 He's here as a company representative. I NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com15 1 don't expect him to testify, but he may be 2 called upon for rebuttal. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 4 Spitzer, do you have any objection to either 5 one of those? 6 MR. SPITZER: No objection, Your 7 Honor. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 9 Mr. Spitzer? 10 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 11 Honor. 12 One additionalpreliminarymatter, 13 the Administrator has a witness that may be 14 called for rebuttal purposes depending on the 15 testimony of the Respondent's expert. This 16 witness was not able to come to the location 17 here today, although he is available via 18 telephone today after 3:30. I realize this is 19 an unusual request having a witness testify 20 via telephone, but unfortunatelyhis schedule 21 is exceedinglybusy and he's very difficult to 22 get ahold of. I would like to ask the Court's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 16 1 leave to -- to interrogate this witness via 2 telephone. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's 4 let's address that when we get to it. 5 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 6 Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. I might 8 mention if memory serves me correctly, your 9 general counsel for the FAA was a friend of a 10 friend of mine, WilliamSuterwho just retired 11 as a clerk of the United States Supreme Court. 12 So that and five bucks will get you a cup of 13 coffee at Starbuck's. 14 Any other matters? 15 

### MR. SPITZER: Nothing further. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Of course, the 17 problemwith having him testifyby phone is I 18 don't have a clue how we're going to do it, 19 but let's deal with that when we get to it. 20 

### Okay. Opening? 21 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 22 Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 17 1 Your Honor, this case came about 2 from events that happenedon December 7, 2011. 3 

### Aaron Perkins, the FAA's aviation safety 4 

### inspector in Salt Lake City for the SkyWest 5 

### CMO, 

### certificate management office, was 6 

### assigned to investigate the de-icing 7 procedures that SkyWest was using at the Salt 8 Lake City airport. 9 He arrived at the airport early in 10 the morning and conducted what he believed 11 would be a normal observation of SkyWest's 12 de-icing process. He observed two SkyWest 13 aircraft go through the de-icingprocess that 14 SkyWest had in place at Salt Lake City and 15 didn't observe anything out of the ordinary. 16 The day was -- was cold and clear. 17 TemperaturE was around minus eight or minus 18 seven, depending on the time of the day. 19 There was no precipitationfalling, and the-- 20 the skies were clear. After having observed 21 the first two aircraft, Inspector Perkins 22 drove his car over to where November 4260 NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com18

1 Whiskey, a SkyWest CRJ200, was preparing to 2 depart. This was parked over at the gate. 3 And he could tell from when he 4 showed up that the aircraft was getting ready 5 to leave. He noticed immediately that the 6 aircraft's wings had a thin layer of frost on 7 them. He got out of the car and ran his 8 fingers along the frost and also took a 9 photograph of this frost. 10 And before we go any further, it's 11 important to point out that the frost 12 you'll see pictures of it. You' 11 hear 13 testimony that it's approximately the 14 thickness of a piece of paper, maybe a 1ittle 15 thicker. But this poses a real risk to 16 aviation safety. The frost, it appears 17 benign. It's not a particularlythick layer, 18 but that small amount of frost, especiallyon 19 the upper wing surface of a CRJ, can 20 dramatically affect the aircraft's takeoff 21 performance and flying performance. This is 22 borne out by the fact that there have been two NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNw.nealrgross.com

### 19 1 major accidents involving a CRJ with

-- that 2 were attributed to frost being on the upper 3 

### wing surface. 4 

### The aircraft is particularly 5 susceptibleto this, as you'll hear our expert 6 testify, because it doesn't have slats. Like 7 a Boeing 737 wing, for example, has devices 8 that extend the wing and allow it to create 9 more lift when the aircraft is taking off. But 10 

### the CRJ isn't equipped with those. So the 11 smallest bit of roughness on the wing surface 12 can cause a dramatic reduction in performance 13 which can ultimately lead to the aircraft 14 taking off in a much longer distance or -- or 15 rolling over or stalling after departure. 16 

### In this case obviously none of 17 that happened which is why we're all sitting 18 

### here today. But the SkyWest Salt Lake City 19 Airport is an extremely long runway and, you 20 know, not every time something bad happens. 21 But it still is a tremendous reduction in the 22 amount of safety that the FAA expects of air NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com20 1 carriers. 2 You're going to hear testimony 3 that Aaron Perkins assumed that this aircraft 4 was going to go de-ice. He believedthat this 5 was obvious enough that

-- that he didn't need 6 to raise it to anybody. And you're going to 7 hear him testify that he followed to what he 8 believed would be the de-icing pad, but the 9 aircraft took off before

-- before it was 10 de-iced and before he could say anything. 11 Your Honor, the Administratcx's 12 case is a very straightforward case. We've 13 alleged ops specs violation that you'll hear 14 testimony about and also that SkyWest 15 ultimatelydepartedthe aircraftwith frost on 16 the wings. You'll hear testimony from our 17 expert, Tom Bond, who is the aviation's chief 18 scientist-- the FAA's chief scientist as it 19 concerns icing and its effect on aircraft. 20 And you'll also hear testimony from Aaron 21 Perkins, the inspector who observed this 22 violation and who has a good amount of NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 21 1 experience in the CRJ himself. 2 Thank you, Your Honor. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, 4 sounds like deja vu, doesn't it? Weren't we 5 here a couple of years ago on a de-icing case 6 out there? 7 

### MR. EMERSON: We were. A little 8 bit different. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 10 

### MR. EMERSON: It was how the fluid 11 was applied, not whether it was applied. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: I learned more 13 about de-icing than I wanted to know. 14 

### MR. EMERSON: If I may, I'll defer 15 to the beginning of SkyWest's case to make my 16 opening statement. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Okay. 18 Fine. 19 Any other preliminary matters? 20 

### MR. SPITZER: Nothing else from 21 the Administrator, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Call your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WVIIw.nealrgross.com22

1 

### first witness. 2 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the 3 Administrator calls Inspector Aaron Perkins. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I learned so much 5 

### that I couldbore my wife to death while we 1

### re 6 

### sitting there waiting for pushback. 7 

### Stand and raise right hand. Over 8 

### here. 9 

### (Witness sworn.) 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 11 

### Please spell your first and last names. 12 

### THE WITNESS: First name is Aaron, 13 

### A-A-R-0-N. Last name is Perkins, 14 

### P-E-R-K-I-N-S. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 16 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 17 

### Honor. 18 

### And just in the nature of excusing 19 

### my odd conduct, the podium right here blocks 20 

### my view of the witness stand so if you notice 21 

### me 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don 1

### t you come NEAL

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### 23 1 up to the podium, and then Mr. Emerson can 2 read your notes. 3 

### MR. SPITZER: More for the sake of 4 cross-examination, Your Honor. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Certainly. 6 AARON PERKINS, 7 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 8 was examined and testified as follows: 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. SPITZER: 11 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, what's your current 12 occupation? 13 A 

### I'm an aviation safety inspector 14 for the FAA. 15 Q 

### And how long have you held that 16 position for? 17 A 

### It will be three years this month. 18 Q 

### Prior to working for the FAA what 19 were you employed as? 20 A 

### I was a pilot. 21 Q 

### On

-- let's start with your first 22 employment as an -- as an airlinepilot or any NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com24 1 type of pilot. Where were you first employed? 2 A My first job as an airline pilot 3 was with Scenic Airlines. I was a first 4 officer on a Twin Otter aircraft. I was based 5 out of Las Vegas. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: What was the 7 airline? 8 THE WITNESS: Scenic, Scenic 9 Airlines. 10 A I was employed there August of 11 2003 until March of 2004. And following that 12 I was hired by Air WisconsinAirlines, started 13 in March of 2004. I flew both BAe146 jet and 14 also the CRJ200 until August of 2008. 15 Q And after Air Wisconsinwhere were 16 you employed? 17 A After Air Wisconsin I got a job 18 with a company called Arik Air. I was based 19 in Nigeria. And I spent two years in West 20 Africa flying the CRJ900. 21 Q And after Arik Air where were -- 22 where were you employed? NEALR. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com25

1 A 

### After Arik Air I flew for a 2 company called ACAS. I was a -- the captain 3 

### on a corporate CJ200 based out of Tripoli, 4 

### Lybia, with operations in and out of Europe 5 

### and throughout Africa. And that was October 6 

### 2010 to January of 2011. 7 Q 

### InspectorPerkins, do you hold any 8 FAA 

### pilot certificates? 9 A 

### Yes. I hold an airline transport 10 

### pilot certificate. 11 Q 

### Do you have any type ratings on 12 

### that pilot certificate? 13 A I 

### do. I have a CL65 type rating 14 

### which is

-- is for the CRJ aircraft. 15 Q 

### And approximately how many hours 16 

### of flight experience do you have? 17 A 

### I have just over 7,000 hours 18 

### total. 19 Q 

### And of those 7,000 hours, 20 approximately how many are in CRJ aircraft? 21 A 

### Just over 3,000 hours. 22 Q 

### Now, Inspector Perkins, you said NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 26 1 that you were hired by the FAA approximately 2 three years ago. Did you receive any training 3 from the FAA when you -- when you got hired? 4 A 

### Yes, a series of training courses 5 I attended in the summer of 2011 in Oklahoma 6 City at the academy. I also received training 7 locallyat the office, on-the-jobtrainingfor 8 

### specific tasks that are required for 9 operations inspectors. 10 Q 

### And, Inspector Perkins, have you 11 received any training from the FAA on icing? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### What training have you received? 14 A 

### I've received-- there is an eLMS 15 

### course, an Internet course that I did 16 

### complete. And there's also

-- one of the 17 elements of the OJT is to conduct a de-ice 18 inspection, and I completed that, levels one, 19 two, and three. 20 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, I'd 1ike to 21 take your attention now to December 7, 2011. 22 Where were you on December 7, 2011? NEAL

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### 27

1 A 

### The day started at the office. I 2 was preparing for a de-ice inspection at Salt 3 Lake City internationalairport. And aftermy 4 preparationwas complete I went to the airport 5 for an inspection. 6 Q 

### What time, approximately, did you 7 arrive at at the airport on December 11

-- 8 or December 7, 2011? 9 A I 

### would estimate I 

### arrived 10 somewhere just after 7:00. 11 Q 

### Can you describe generally the 12 weather conditions on the morning of December 13 7, 2011? 14 A 

### Yeah. It was a clear, cold 15 morning, light winds. 16 Q 

### When you were at the airport, what 17 did you do after arriving? 18 A 

### I

-- the first thing I did is I 19 proceeded to the de-ice location where 20 airplanes were going through the de-ice 21 process. And I was in my government car and 22 I positioned it in a location where I could NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com28

1 observe the de-icing procedures. 2 Q How many de-icing procedures did 3 you observe? 4 A That morning I observed two 5 SkyWest CRJ aircraft come through for the 6 de-icing process. 7 Q What, if any, type of ice were 8 they were they removing, if you know? 9 A On a morning like that I would 10 presume that it would only be removing frost. 11 Q But you did not observe personally 12 the frost on those aircrafts' wings? 13 A No. 14 Q After observing these two aircraft 15 go through the de-ice process, what happened 16 next? 17 A I was started to -- thinking 18 about wrapping up my day. Before I did that 19 I drove along the terminal to see if there was 20 any other SkyWest aircraft getting ready for 21 departure, and that's when I noticeda SkyWest 22 aircraft at gate Echo 1 getting ready to load NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nea!rgross.com29 

### 1 up and

-- and push back for

-- for a takeoff. 2 Q 

### Approximately what time did you 3 first observe this aircraft at Echo 1? 4 A I 

### arrived at that airplane at 5 

### about 7:41 in the morning. 6 Q 

### And did you notice anything about 7 

### the aircraft when you arrived at the gate at 8 

### E1? 9 A 

### Yes. I

-- I parked my car behind 10 the tail of the airplane, and I approachedthe 11 left wing of that aircraft, and I only walked 12 maybe 10 feet or so from the car. And from 13 that point it was very obvious there was frost 14 on the left wing, in which I got back in my 15 car to move it so I wouldn't interfere with 16 the pushback operation. 17 Q 

### While you were standing at the 18 aircraft or standingbehind the aircraft, did 19 you take any photographs of this frost? 20 A 

### No. 

### 21 Q 

### So after you got back in the car, 22 what happened next? NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WININ.nealrgross.com30

1 A I moved the car around to the west 2 side of the airplane, and I -- I wanted to 3 check the right wing to see if it looked the 4 same as the left wing, so I did that. I -- 

### 5 after 

### I moved the car, 

### I got out of the car, 6 approachedthe right wing to do an inspection, 

### 7 and at that time is when 

### I took the 8 photograph. 9 Q The

-- you said earlier that you 10 could tell the aircraft was getting ready to 11 to push back. How could you tell that? 12 A The boarding

-- the main boarding 13 door was already closed. I believe the beacon 14 was on. The bags were -- were being

-- just 15 finishing up the loading process in the cargo 16 department. So all the signs were there that 17 they were getting close to pushback. 18 Q So through your training as a CRJ 19 captain and also with the FAA, have you been 20 instructed on how to detect ice on aircraft 21 wings? 22 A Yes. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com31

1 Q 

### And what

-- what is the detection 2 process as you understand it? 3 A 

### The

-- the detectionprocess, it's 4 

### it's really twofold. You're trained on 5 what

-- on how to spot frozen contamination, 6 

### so that's the training would include 7 looking at pictures of what contamination 8 looks like on an aircraft wlng, and the other 9 training would be to touch it, do a tactile 10 inspection to verify the presence. 11 Q 

### What is your understandingof what 12 the tactile inspection for the CRJ involves? 13 A 

### It involves running your hand on 14 on the wing or other critical surfaces. 15 And typically it's for

-- the tactile check 16 itself was typicallyfor contaminationthat's 17 difficult to see like clear ice. As you run 18 your hand across the wing, if you don't feel 19 rivet heads, that would be an indicationthat 20 there is some sort of contamination on the 21 wing. 22 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, when you say NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com32

1 you run your hand on the wing, which parts of 2 the wing specificallyare you required to run 3 your hands over? 4 A I suppose that it would vary from 5 airline to airline. But in the case of 6 SkyWest their manual says that you should do 7 a tactile inspectionon the wing leading edge, 8 the wing upper surface, and the wing rear 9 surface. 10 Q And when you looked at this 11 aircraft parked at gate El, did you do that 12 complete inspection? 13 A 

### No. I didn't I didn't touch 14 the forward part of the wing, leading edge. 15 I just did an inspection on the

-- the part 16 where I saw the frost. 17 Q Would you be able to to 18 describe to the Court the approximate 19 thickness of this frost as you observed it? 20 A It's I would say it it's 21 difficultto measure the thickness, but during 22 the deposition we talked about a sheet of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com33

1 paper. And looking at a sheet of paper, I 2 would say it's at least that thick if not 3 thicker than a sheet of paper. 4 Q Now, Inspector Perkins, through 5 your trainingwith-- with respect to the type 6 rating on the CRJ and also that the FAA 7 provided to you, did you receive instruction 8 on the hazards posed by frost on aircraft 9 wings? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And what is your understanding 12 generally of the hazards posed by frost on -- 13 on an aircraft's wing? 14 A The hazards are -- are numerous on 15 aircraft's wings. You run into aerodynamic 16 problems including the loss of lift, increase 17 of drag. Roll instabilityis common. The CRJ 18 wing in particular is

-- is, I'd say, fragile 19 or more -- more -- more of a concern than 20 other types of aircraft's wings. 21 Q And why is the wing of the CRJ 22 more of a concern than other aircrafts' wings NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com34 

### 1 as you understand it? 2 A 

### It's a it's a hard wing. 3 Q 

### What does the term "hard wing" 4 mean? 5 A 

### So hard wing means that there's 6 not a leading edge device so there's no slats 7 on the front, and those types of wings can be 8 more of a concern with frozen contamination. 9 Q 

### And if you -- if you know, why is 10 that more of a concern? 11 A 

### I believe it's for the laminar 12 flow characteristics. 13 Q 

### Moving on, Inspector Perkins, you 14 said that you had taken a photographof the

-- 15 of the wing, the aircraft's right wing. What 16 happened after you took that photograph? 17 A 

### After I took the photograph I 18 returned to my car where I was planning on 19 watching the pushback operation and then to 20 follow the aircraft to the de-ice pad where I 21 could observe the de-ice process. 22 Q 

### Now, Inspector Perkins, you say NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com35 

### 1 followed the aircraft to the de-ice pad. Why 2 

### why do you say that? 3 A 

### Well, there's several different 4 

### de-ice pads at Salt Lake City International. 5 

### I wanted to make sure that I

-- I went to the 6 

### right one because there's a 

### different 7 

### frequency used for the different pads. So my 8 

### plan was to -- rather than leave right then 9 

### and there and go guess at which pad they 10 

### were going to go, I wanted to follow them on 11 the service road to whichever pad they were 12 intending on going to so I could observe the 13 de-ice process. 14 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, why did you -- 15 when you say that you wanted to follow the 16 aircraft to the de-ice pad, why did you assume 17 it was going to the de-ice pad? 18 A 

### There was frozen contamination, 19 frost, on both wings, and that's

-- part of 20 the de-ice program for SkyWest is to have that 21 removed. 22 Q 

### At the time that

-- that you got NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com36

1 

### back into your car, did you believe that the 2 flight crew had detected this frozen 3 

### contamination? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### So, Inspector Perkins, if you 6 could, walk me through what happens after you 7 get into your car. What happens next? 8 A 

### The crew commenced the pushback 9 procedure. And what happened next, I guess, 10 

### was unexpected for me. They

-- rather than 11 taxiing to the de-ice pads that were being 12 used that morning they taxied

-- 13 Q 

### And, Inspector Perkins, were you 14 following this aircraft as it

-- as it taxied? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### So where did you follow the 17 aircraft to? 18 A 

### The aircraft taxied to spot 23 19 which is to the west of where the gate was, so 20 I followed them kind of parallel along a 21 service road which they came to a rest and 22 stopped for several minutes at spot 23 before NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com37 

### 1 taxiing for takeoff. 2 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, your testimony 3 

### is that they took off after they left spot 23? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### Did they use a direct route to get 6 to the runway from there or did they taxi 7 somewhere else first? 8 A 

### It was a direct route. They made 9 a left turn at the taxiway which took them 10 down to the runway for

-- for takeoff. 11 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, why didn't you 12 attempt to stop this aircraft from departing? 13 A 

### I would have loved to. I didn't 14 have the resources with me in the car at the 15 

### time. I just had a -- a handheld radio that 16 was tuned into the de-ice pad, and I didn't 17 have the frequency for the air traffic control 18 tower to make contact. I also didn't have the 19 phone number in my phone to -- to make the 20 phone calls necessary. 21 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, did you 22 consider driving your car in front of the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com38 

### 1 aircraft to -- to get their attention? 2 A No. 

### I never really considered 3 

### doing that. It was taking a car onto an 4 active taxiway without contacting the tower, 5 not seeing the full picture, I thought would 6 be

-- would be careless to try to track down 7 chase down a moving airplane. 8 Q 

### Was there any other way that you 9 could have gotten the crew's attention? 10 A 

### With the resources I 

### had 11 available, unfortunately, no. 12 Q 

### So, Inspector Perkins, can you 13 tell us what you did after you observed the 14 aircraft take off? 15 A 

### Yes, after the airplane

-- while 16 the airplanewas taking off I was on the phone 17 with my supervisor telling him about the 18 events that were unfolding. 19 Q 

### Why did you call your supervisor? 20 A 

### That was the resource that I had 21 available to me was my supervisor. Prior to 22 that I

-- I actually sent a text message to NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLJ\NDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com39 

### 1 the principal operations inspector. He was in 2 a meeting with some management officials from 3 

### SkyWest, so he was notified. And then while I 4 

### was waiting to hear back from him is when I 5 

### decided to call my supervisor. He carries a 6 

### cell phone in his pocket, so I knew I could 7 

### get ahold of him. 8 Q 

### So, Inspector Perkins, could you 9 

### explain why you sent a text message to -- to 10 

### the principal operations inspector? 11 A 

### I knew he was with the management 12 

### official of SkyWest, so I figured that would 13 

### be prudent to -- to notify the leaders of the 14 

### company. And then when he wasn't able to call 15 

### me back, I thought the next best option was to 16 

### notify my supervisor. 17 Q 

### Now, after you notified your 18 supervisor of what happened, what

-- did you 19 do anything else with respect to this case? 20 A 

### I did. I continued to try to 21 

### manage what I could that was available to me, 22 so I was able to locate the

-- the de-icing NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com40 

### 1 manager in charge of de-icing that morning, 2 Rich Millward. And I had a brief conversation 3 with him about what had happened that morning 4 to let him know of the risk and for him to be 5 

### on the lookout, you know, for possibly 6 something

-- another case where this might 7 happen. 8 Q 

### Once you notified SkyWest's 9 de-icing manager, did you have any more 10 contact with employees of SkyWest Airlines 11 concerning this case? 12 A 

### It must have been a week or -- or 13 maybe two weeks later we conducted an 14 interview, the assistant manager and myself, 15 

### with a a SkyWest pilot who was on the 16 airplane: Daniel Anderson. 17 Q 

### Did you interview anybody else, 18 Inspector Perkins? 19 A 

### Interviewed a passenger on the 20 airplane that was sitting behind the SkyWest 21 pilot. 22 Q 

### How about the flight crew, did you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 41 1 ever interview them? 2 A 

### We did. We myself and two 3 other inspectorsmet the flight crewwhen they 4 returned to Salt Lake that day and were able 5 to have a discussion with them about our 6 concerns that morning. 7 Q 

### At some point, Inspector Perkins, 8 did you begin an FAA investigation of the 9 facts and circumstances surrounding this 10 incident? 11 A 

### Yes. It started that day. The 12 investigation started

-- I guess it started 13 with notifying the de-ice manager, and the 14 next step in the investigation was the 15 interview with the crew. 16 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, did you gather 17 any documents as part of your inspection? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 1

### d 1

### ike 20 to request continuing permission to approach 21 to hand the witness documents. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Sure. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com42

1 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 2 Honor. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure you show 4 

### everything to Mr. Emerson. 5 

### MR. SPITZER: Absolutely, Your 6 

### Honor. 7 

### Your Honor, I'd like to present 8 

### the witness with what has been marked as 9 

### Exhibit 1. 10 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, for 11 

### housekeeping, SkyWest exhibitswill be R-1, 2, 12 3. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 14 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, do you 15 

### recognize this document? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And what is it? 18 A 

### It's the air carrier certificate 19 

### for SkyWest Airlines. 20 Q 

### And if you turn the page, what's 21 

### next? 22 A 

### The next page is Operations NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com43 

### 1 Specification A001. 2 Q 

### And what is the significance of 3 this document? 4 A 

### This document authorizes SkyWest 5 

### to to conduct domestic flight and 6 

### supplemental operations as an air carrier. 7 Q 

### And if you turn the page again, 8 what is that? 9 A 

### This is Operations Specification 10 DOSS, aircraft listing. This document shows 11 

### the aircraft that was operated the morning of 12 December 7, 

### 2011. 13 Q 

### And do you recognize the aircraft 14 on there? 15 A 

### Yes. November 426 Sierra Whiskey. 16 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 1

### d like 17 to offer what's been previously marked as 18 Administrator's Exhibit 1. 19 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Just for 21 the record, what the Court does with the 22 exhibits is I'm going to pencil ID above the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 W\NVI/.nealrgross.com44

1 exhibit number. When it's admitted I strike 2 through and I write the D along everything 3 that's in pencil. That gives both of you the 4 opportunity to double-check me when I get 5 done. I also do a spreadsheet which I'll 6 share with the two of you once I get it done. 7 But just I want you to understand the 8 mechanics. When you -- when you go on the 9 regulations.govand you see markings, they're 10 typically the Court's. 11 So Agency Exhibit 1 for 12 identification is received received into 13 evidence as Agency Exhibit 1. 14 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 1 WAS 15 RECEIVED.) 16 MR. SPITZER: And, Your Honor, for 17 the sake of convenience, can I offer you the 18 same exhibit that goes to the court reporter? 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 20 MR. SPITZER: Do you mind if 21 can the court reporter take your exhibits 22 afterwards or do you want separatecopies from NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com45 

### 1 the court reporter? 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I 1

### mgoing to 3 

### keep the originals. If you've got an extra 4 

### copy to give the court reporter so she 5 

### understands what you're talking about, that 6 

### works good. But I normally keep the

-- the 7 

### exhibits, and I will get them to Ms. Matthews 8 

### in my office. 9 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 10 

### Honor. 11 

### Your Honor, I'd like to present 12 

### the witness with what has been marked as 13 

### Administrator's Exhibit 2. 14 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 15 Perkins, what is this document? 16 A 

### This is Operations Specification 17 A023. 18 Q 

### Now, what's the significance of 19 this document? 20 A 

### This authorizes SkyWest to use 21 

### theirSkyWestAirlinesGroundDe-icingProgram 22 Manual, SB2800, to go about their de-icing NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 ININW.nealrgross.com46

1 

### responsibilities as an air carrier. 2 Q 

### And the documents that are 3 attachedbehind this, what is that collection 4 

### of documents? 5 A 

### This is a portion of the Ground 6 

### De-icing Program Manual. 7 Q 

### Is this the entire Ground De-icing 8 

### Manual? 9 A 

### No. This

-- what I have here is 10 

### Chapter 2 

### which covers definitions and 11 

### acronyms, abbreviation. Also Chapter 4 

### is 12 

### included and Appendix A. 13 Q 

### So this is a 

### collection of 14 excerpts from the Ground De-icing Manual? 15 A 

### That's correct. 16 Q 

### Is this Ground De-icingManual the 17 version of the manual that was in effect at 18 the time of the December 7, 2011 flight? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 21 

### to offer Administrator's Exhibit 2. 22 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com47 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 2 2 for identificationis received in evidence as 3 Agency Exhibit 2. 4 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 2 WAS 5 RECEIVED.) 6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 7 to offer to the witness what has been 8 previously marked as Administrator's Exhibit 9 5. 10 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 11 Perkins, do you recognize this document? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q What is this document? 14 A This is weather data that I 15 obtainedas part of the investigationfor this 16 case from the National Weather Service or the 17 National Climatic Data Center. 18 Q And is this weather at Salt Lake 19 City for the aircraft at the time of the 20 subject flight? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com48 

### 1 to offer what has been previously marked as 2 Administrator's Exhibit 5 into evidence. 3 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 5 5 

### for identificationis received in evidence as 6 

### Agency Exhibit 5. 7 

### (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 5 

### WAS 8 RECEIVED.) 9 

### MR. SPITZER: I'd like to offer 10 the witness what has beenpreviouslymarked as 11 Administrator's Exhibit 6. 12 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, do you 13 recognize this document? 14 A 

### Yes, I do. 15 Q 

### Where does this document come 16 from? 17 A 

### This was provided from SkyWest 18 Airlines. This is the

-- called the tail audit 19 report, and shows the different times that's 20 recorded from the ACARS, things such as out 21 time and off times. 22 Q 

### Can you explain for the Court what NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com49

1 ACAR stands for? 2 A It's aircraft communication and 3 reporting system. It's a system on board the 4 airplane that monitors the time. It's a 5 communication tool for the crews. 6 Q Inspector, looking at this 7 document can you determinewhen certainevents 8 happened on the aircraft? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 11 to offer what has been previously marked as 12 Administrator's Exhibit 6 into evidence. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson? 14 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency

-- Agency 16 Exhibit 6 for identificationis received into 17 evidence as Agency Exhibit 6. 18 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 6 WAS 19 RECEIVED.) 20 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 21 to approach the witness with what has been 22 previously marked as Administrator's Exhibit NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com50 

### 1 7. 2 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, what 3 

### is this document? 4 A 

### This is a copy of the dispatch 5 

### release for the flight in question in this 6 

### case, Flight 7770. 7 Q 

### Where did you obtain this document 8 

### from? 9 A 

### This was also provided by SkyWest 10 

### Airlines. 11 Q 

### This was obtained as part of your 12 

### investigation into the subject flight? 13 A 

### That's correct. 14 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 1

### d like 15 

### to offer what has been previously marked as 16 

### Administrator's Exhibit 7 

### into evidence. 17 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 7 19 

### for identification is received into evidence 20 

### as Agency Exhibit 7. 21 

### (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 7 

### WAS 22 RECEIVED.) NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 51

1 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 2 Honor. 3 Your Honor, I'd like to offer the 4 

### witness what has been previously marked as 5 

### Administrator's Exhibit 3. 6 Q (By 

### MR. SPITZER) Inspector 7 Perkins, what is this document? 8 A 

### This is a picture that I took of 9 the right wing of aircraft426 SierraWhiskey. 10 Q 

### This is a photograph you took of 11 the wing on December 7, 2011? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### And what does this photograph 14 show, if you know? 15 A 

### This photograph shows frost on the 16 upper surface of the wing of the aircraft. 17 Q 

### Is this a fair and accurate 18 depiction of the frost on the wing of SkyWest 19 Flight 7770 on the morning of December 7, 20 2011? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 52

1 

### to offer what has been previously marked as 2 Administrator's 3 into evidence. 3 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. This 5 

### is 3 

### or 7? 6 

### MR. SPITZER: Three, Your Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 8 

### MR. SPITZER: And, YourHonor, I'd 9 

### like to present the witness withwhat has been 10 

### marked as Administrator's Exhibit 9. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit 3 

### for 12 

### identification is received into evidence as 13 

### Exhibit 3 . 14 

### (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 3 

### WAS 15 RECEIVED. ) 16 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 17 Honor. 18 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, what 19 is this document? 20 A 

### This is a second photograph I took 21 

### of the aircraft that morning that's showing 22 the registration of the aircraft. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNw.nealrgross.com53

1 Q 

### Is this a fair and accurate 2 depiction of the registration on Flight 7770 3 on the morning of December 7, 2011 as you 4 

### observed it? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 'd like 7 

### to offer what has been previously marked as 8 

### Administrator's Exhibit 9 

### into evidence. 9 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. 10 

### (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 9 

### WAS 11 

### RECEIVED. ) 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Just to 13 

### facilitate the record, we we all have in 14 

### front of us pictures, but we've got two 15 

### exhibits both of which referred to as photos 16 

### of an aircraft in the record. So Exhibit 3 17 

### appears to be

-- asking the witness this. 18 

### Exhibit 3 

### appears to be a 

### 19 photograph of the left wing of an aircraft. 20 Is that correct? 21 

### THE WITNESS: No, sir. It's a 22 picture of the right wing of the aircraft. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com54

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So it's

-- 2 Exhibit 3 is the right wing of the aircraft. 3 

### I'm going to note that on the photograph. 4 

### Exhibit 9 

### is a picture of the right side of 5 

### the aircraft. Is that correct -- 6 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: from about the 8 

### engine up to the wing assembly. 9 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That way we don't 11 

### have two exhibits in the record that are 12 

### identified as photos. 13 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 14 

### Honor. 15 Q (By 

### MR. SPITZER) Inspector 16 Perkins, turning to what has been previously 17 marked as Administrator's Exhibit 3, where 18 were you standing, approximately, when you 19 took this photograph? 20 A 

### I was standing at -- at the wing, 21 

### very close to the wing on the outboard section 22 of the right wing as I took the photograph. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com55

1 Q 

### When you say "outboard section," 2 approximately how far from the wing tip were 3 you standing? 4 A 

### I'd say approximately three feet. 5 Q 

### So for the sake of clarification, 6 you were standing behind the wing three feet 7 to the left of the right wing tip? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Was there more frost on the 10 aircraft besides the

-- what's depicted in 11 this photograph? 12 A 

### Yes, there was. This photograph 13 doesn't capture the entire wing. There was 14 more frost than what's

-- what's shown here. 15 Q 

### And why didn't you take a picture 16 of the remainder of the frost? 17 A 

### Well, to be honest, had I known we 18 were going to be here today, I would have 19 

### taken many photos. I I took a photo of the 20 frost that was -- was there in front of me and 21 snapped a photo of the tail number. 22 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, from your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com56 1 experience as a CRJ pilot and your training, 2 do you know what is containedunderneath this 3 structure where the frost appears? 4 A Well, on this

-- on the wing of 5 the CRJ aircraft there's a fuel tank that 6 starts at the root and it runs span-wise 7 across the wing up to a certain spot, perhaps 8 two-thirds of the way out of the wing, and 9 then the outer portion-- the rest of the wing 10 span-wise, I believe, is just honeycomb and 11 other

-- other material away from the fuel 12 tank. 13 Q In the part of the wing that's 14 depicted in photograph 3, is there fuel 15 underlyingthat area where the frost is shown? 16 A I don't

-- I don't believe so in 17 this photo. 18 Q Turning now to what has been 19 previously marked as Administrator's Exhibit 20 6, looking at this document, can you tell when 21 the aircraft began its pushback? 22 A Yes, I can. The

-- on the third NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com57 1 page there's a -- some -- some data there, and 2 it says push/movement, and that's at 1452 3 Zulu, which would be 7:52 local time, is when 4 the

-- when the push occurred. 5 Q And when did you first observe the 6 frost on the aircraft, Inspector Perkins? 7 A 7:41, approximately, when I 8 when I first approachedthe airplane, and I 9 I saw the frost on the left wing is first time 10 I I saw the frost. 11 Q And at 7:52, the push/movement 12 time that's marked on this this ACAR 13 report, Exhibit 6, were you still able to 14 observe the frost? 15 A I think by that when the 16 airplane was pushingback, I was -- I was back 17 in the car, so I wasn't at the wing side as I 18 was several minutes before that, up close and 19 personal. 20 Q When was the last time you 21 observed the frost on the wing, if you know? 22 A At the time that the photo was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com

### 58 1 taken which

-- which is about 7:48 in the 2 morning, a.m. About

-- what is that?

-- four 3 minutes before push? 4 Q 

### How do you know this photograph 5 was taken at 7:48? 6 A I 

### believe that number was taken 7 

### off my phone. 8 Q 

### Were you able to observe frost on 9 the aircraft's wing at any point after the 10 pushback? 11 A 

### No. 12 Q 

### And why not? 13 A 

### After pushback I 

### was -- I 

### was in 14 my car following along with the crew as they 15 taxied. So at no point after that was I 

### wing 16 side looking at the wing. 17 Q 

### So why couldn't you observe the 18 frost on the wings when you're

-- when you're 19 following the aircraft? 20 A 

### Just the

-- I 

### guess the distance 21 that I was at wouldn't give me a clear enough 22 view to discern the frost. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 'WV'I'N.nealrgross.com59

1 Q Inspector Perkins, looking at this 2 this Exhibit 6, from this document can you 3 tell when the aircraft ultimately took off? 4 A Yes, I can. Let me give you the 5 page number here. So on page 4 the very last 6 data entry at 1508 Zulu, or 8:08 local, 7 there's a text block that says, "Off." 8 Q Now, Inspector Perkins, you said 9 that before the aircraft took off it had 10 taxied to spot 26, as you described it. 11 Looking at this data, can you tell the court 12 when the aircraft arrived at spot 26? 13 A Yes. Spot 23 is where it arrived. 14 And looking at the data, it appears they 15 arrived at spot 23 at 1502, is when they set 16 their brake. 17 Q And at this time is it fair to say 18 that you believedthe aircraft was going to go 19 to de-ice? 20 A Well, it was possible. There is a 21 de-ice pad over on the west side that's used 22 for de-icing. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 INWw.nealrgross.com60

1 Q 

### Now, can you tell when the 2 aircraft left spot 23 from looking at this 3 data in document 6 or Exhibit 6? 4 A 

### Yes. At 1504, or 8:04 local, they 5 released their brake. That was the last time 6 the brakes were used because the next data 7 entry is the takeoff. So they arrived at spot 8 23 at 1502, sat for two minutes, and then 9 departed at 1508. 10 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, I'd like to-- 11 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 12 to present the witness with one additional 13 document. This is what has been previously 14 marked as Exhibit 4. 15 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Do you recognize 16 this document, Inspector Perkins? 17 A 

### Yes, I do. 18 Q 

### What is this document? 19 A 

### It's the Salt Lake City 20 International Airport diagram. 21 Q 

### Where did you obtain this document 22 from, Inspector? NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 61

1 A 

### I printed

-- I obtained this from 2 Jefferson. They're the chart provider. 3 Q 

### And what does it show? 4 A 

### It shows the airport layout, the 5 runway configurations, and the associated 6 

### taxiways and de-icing pads and ramp areas. 7 Q 

### Now, Inspector Perkins, can you 8 

### mark with a pen -- do you have a pen? 9 A 

### No. 10 MR. 

### SPITZER: Permission to 11 approach, Your Honor. 12 Q (By MR. 

### SPITZER) Inspector 13 Perkins, can you mark with an X the location 14 of Echo 1 where you first observedthe subject 15 aircraft? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### Now, using your pen, can you draw 18 the course that the aircraft followed to get 19 ultimately to the runway? 20 A 

### Yes. (Witness complies.) 21 Q 

### Can you circle the spot 23 where 22 the aircraft held on this document? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 62

1 A 

### Yes. (Witness complies.) 2 Q 

### And can you mark with an arrow on 3 this document the nearestde-icinglocationto 4 spot 23? 5 A 

### Yes. (Witness complies.) 6 Q 

### Are you finished? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 

### MR. SPITZER: Counselor. 9 

### Your Honor, I'd like to present to 10 

### you what has been marked as Administratc:r 11 Exhibit4 containingthe markings of Inspector 12 Perkins as to the route of the subject 13 aircraft on the morning of December 7, 2011. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not sure what 15 the answer is. The Court can see the line of 16 travel, but I would point out that

-- okay. 17 Well, at this point are you offering exhibit? 18 

### MR. SPITZER: I am, Your Honor. 19 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What I'm going to 21 suggest, Counsel, is that

-- you've given me 22 the unmarked exhibit and you've given me one NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com63

1 

### that the witness has marked. It's difficult 2 to discern the line. What I'm going to 3 

### suggest is that the unmarked copy be 4 identified as Exhibit 4A and the one that the 5 

### witness has marked be 4B. That way it's 6 

### easier to -- to see where the line is showing 7 

### the the movement of the aircraft. Either 8 

### one of you have any objection to that? 9 

### MR. SPITZER: No objection from 10 

### the Administrator, Your Honor. 11 

### MR. EMERSON: No objection. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So the original 13 

### exhibitpresentedto the Court is 4A, and that 14 

### is an unmarked copy of the schematic of Salt 15 

### Lake International Airport. That will be 16 

### received into evidence as Agency Exhibit 4A. 17 

### (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 4A WAS 18 RECEIVED.) 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The copy that was 20 marked up by the witness is going to be 4B. 21 

### And I would point out that the E terminal 22 appears to be run into the letters air carrier NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com64

1 apron. You can see the X. You can see the 2 line that goes from right to left and then 3 from top to bottom down to the bottom of 4 runway 34L. That will be received into 5 evidence as Agency Exhibit 4B. 6 (AGENCY EXHIBIT 

### NO. 4B WAS 7 RECEIVED.) 8 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 9 Honor. 10 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 11 Perkins, in your investigationand observation 12 of this incident, did you come to a conclusion 13 as to whether SkyWest had compromised safety 14 by its operation of this aircraft? 15 A I felt that the safety was 16 compromised, yes. 17 Q And what are you basing that on? 18 A The fact that there was frozen 19 contaminationon both wings of the airplane at 20 time of pushback and that that was not removed 21 before takeoff. 22 Q Inspector Perkins, from your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com65 

### 1 analysis of SkyWest's operations 2 specifications, did you come to any 3 conclusions as to whether SkyWest complied 4 with their operations specifications during 5 this incident? 6 A 

### Yeah. My conclusion is that the 7 

### the Ground De-ice Program Manual and 8 everything contained there within was not 9 followed; therefore, I find

-- my conclusion 10 is that the carrier is not in compliance with 11 the ops spec to follow that manual. 12 Q 

### With respect to this particular 13 incident? 14 A 

### Correct. 15 Q 

### What specific provisions of the 16 

### operations manual or the operations 17 specificationsdo youbelieve that SkyWestwas 18 not in compliance with? 19 A 

### The Ground De-ice Program Manual 20 calls for contamination to be removed by the 21 de-ice process. That's spelled out. And that 22 was not accomplished on December 7, 2011. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com66

1 Q How about the act of departing the 2 aircraft from from Salt Lake City on 3 December 7, 2011, with frost on the wings, 4 would that be a violation of the Federal 5 Aviation regulations? 6 A Yes, it would. 7 Q Do you know which regulations? 8 A CFR 121.639 Bravo, I believe. 9 Q Would that also be a violation of 10 SkyWest's operations specifications? 11 A Yes, it would. The Ground De-ice 12 Program Manual

-- the objective of it is to 13 prevent airplanes from taking off with 14 contamination. 15 Q Earlier you said that you believed 16 that SkyWest violated their ops specs by 17 failing to de-ice the aircraft. Does that 18 can you point to any particular part of 19 Exhibit 2 that would that would be 20 prohibitedby failing to de-ice the aircraft? 21 A Okay. So on page 4-3 of Chapter 4 22 the it's titled ''De-ice/Anti-ice Program NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 IJIIININ.nea!rgross.com67 

### 1 Implementation Procedure." And there's 2 policies there that run throughout the next 3 few pages of

-- of what the policy is and what 4 

### procedure shouldbe followed to implement and 5 

### go through the the de-icing procedures. 6 Q 

### And in this procedure is SkyWest 7 required to de-ice when frost is on an 8 aircraft's wings prior to takeoff? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, you mentioned 11 earlier that you had interviewed the flight 12 crew of this aircraft. Did you interview the 13 first officer on this aircraft? 14 A 

### I did. 15 Q 

### And did he conduct a preflight 16 walk-around of this aircraft? 17 A 

### Yes. He stated that he did 18 perform a preflight walk-around. 19 Q 

### And during that preflight 20 walk-around, did he state whether or not he 21 had conducted a tactile inspection for frost 22 and frozen contamination on the aircraft's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com68 

### 1 wings? 2 A 

### He did state that. 3 Q 

### Did you notice anything unusual 4 about his

-- when you asked him whether he had 5 conducted this

-- this inspection? 6 A 

### After the interview was over he 7 asked me to take him to the location where I 8 saw the frost, and when we were out there, I 9 pointed to the

-- the upper surface where the 10 photograph was taken. And at that time he 11 didn't mention if he performed a tactile 12 inspectionon that portion of the wing or not. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: He did or did not? 14 

### THE WITNESS: He did not mention 15 that he checked that part of the wing. 16 A 

### He did mention that he checked the 17 wing leading edge and the flaps. 18 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, subject 19 to redirect, the Administratorhas no further 20 questions for Inspector Aaron Perkins. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, do 22 you want to inquire now or take a break now? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com69 

### 1 Your call. 2 MR. EMERSON: At 10:18 once I get 3 

### going, it will probably be another hour. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we take 5 

### a quick break then? 6 

### MR. EMERSON: Okay. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 8 

### admonish you not to discuss your testimony 9 

### with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 10 

### hearing. We're going to take about a 11 

### 10-minute break. We're going to see if the 12 

### coffee shop still exists in the basement. I 13 

### keep looking at the clock. I know it isn't 14 

### working. At 10:30 I'm going to ask you to 15 

### return to where you are at the stand. So 16 we're going to go off the record for a couple 17 minutes. 18 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 19 Honor. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: We're off the 21 

### record. 22 (A break was taken from 10:17 to NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com70

1 

### 10:33.) 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 3 remind you that you're still under oath. 4 

### Mr. Emerson. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Your 6 

### Honor. 7 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 8 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 9 Q 

### Good morning, Mr. Perkins. 10 A 

### Good morning. 11 Q 

### How long were you employed at the 12 

### FAA prior to December 7, 2011? 13 A 

### My hire date was February 27, 14 

### 2011. 15 Q 

### After that an extended period of 16 17 

### A About 10 months. 18 Q 

### -- about 10 months. How much of 19 

### that was spent in training? 20 

### A Spent several months I think. 21 

### It's kind of split up over -- 

### a little bit 22 

### here, a little bit there, but I I

### d say NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com71 

### 1 collectively probably about three months of 2 that first year is spent in Oklahoma at the 3 academy. 4 Q 

### And you completed your de-icing 5 training in October 20117 6 A 

### Actually I went back and checked 7 it after the deposition. I didn't receive the 8 

### deposition until Saturday, two days ago. I 

### 9 was able to go back and review that. It was 10 actually on December 2nd, is when I finished. 11 Q 

### You finished December 2nd, so five 12 days before this event -- 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### is when you completed your 15 training? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### So is this your first EPI on a 18 de-icing operation? 19 A 

### I'm not sure about that. I would 20 have to go back into the repositoryand see my 21 inspections. 22 Q 

### Do you think you -- you completed NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 72 1 one in the five days priors? 2 A 

### I might have. I 

### I don't 3 recall. 4 Q 

### If it wasn't your first, it was 5 

### pretty close to being your first one. You 6 

### testified you were all by yourself

-- 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### out there. Is that typical? 9 A 

### It can be. It just really 10 depends. For local de-icing inspections here 11 in Salt Lake, if there's more than one 12 inspectorthat has that inspectionassignedto 13 them, then sometimes two inspectors could go. 14 If

-- it really depends on the availabilityof 15 

### inspectors. Going by yourself is

-- is just 16 as normal as -- as not. 17 Q 

### Why did you select December 7th to 18 perform an EPI on the de-icing operations? 19 A 

### I knew I had to get done a certain 20 number of activities for the quarter, and you 21 try to get the work done when de-icing 22 activity is happening. So a lot of times with NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com73 

### 1 de-icing events it's more or less dictatedby 2 the weather. 3 Q 

### Were the weather conditions 4 conducive for icing on December 7, 2011? 5 A 

### Yeah. It was a clear, cold 6 morning which is notoriouslyprone for frost. 7 So that's-- you know, that's being-- what I 8 saw out there was airplanesbeing de-icedthat 9 morning for that reason. 10 Q 

### Let me draw your attention to one 11 of the exhibits in front of you. It's Exhibit 12 No. 5. You identified this before as weather 13 data that you obtained in conjunction with 14 your investigation. 15 A 

### Yes, sir. 16 Q 

### Have you found it? Do you have it 17 in front of you? 18 A 

### Yes, sir. 19 Q 

### Where did you get this 20 information? 21 A 

### We

-- I put a request in to the 22 National Climatic Data Center, I presume. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com74 

### 1 It's-- it's a procedure we use to-- to get 2 certifiedweather. It's called a blue ribbon 3 weatherpackage. That's-- that's what we use 4 for these kind of cases. 5 Q 

### The temperatures recorded here in 6 

### Exhibit 5 are hourly. Is that correct? 7 A 

### That's correct. 8 Q 

### Do you know whether or not more 9 accurate weather data was available to you 10 when you made this request? By more accurate 11 I mean the temperature taken more often than 12 once an hour. 13 A 

### No the airport has an ATIS at the 14 terminal. I forget what it stands for, but 15 ATIS. And that's also updated hourly unless 16 there's some sort of significantchange. Then 17 

### they'll they'll amend the ATIS, but 18 

### yeah, that's it's an hourly reading, is 19 what's typically used in airline operations. 20 Q 

### Do you know whether or not the 21 airport takes a measurementof the temperature 22 more often than one hour? NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 WWoN.nealrgross.com75

1 A I don't

-- don't know the system 2 that you'd be referring to, no. 3 Q Do you know the source of this 4 data, where the thermometerswere locatedthat 5 took the temperature, for example? 6 A I -- I don't know where the

-- no, 7 I don't know where they take the temperature. 8 Q Did you request any data 9 concerningsunlight, solarradiation, that was 10 hitting the field at this time of day? 11 A No. 12 Q You testified that upon arrival at 13 the airport that morningyou observedde-icing 14 operations. 15 A Yes. 16 Q At what location did you observe 17 those de-icing operations? 18 A I believe it was at spot 9, is 19 where the de-icingwas occurring, the de-icing 20 process. 21 MR. EMERSON: May I approach, Your 22 Honor? NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com76

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 2 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) You put 3 

### Exhibit 4 in front of you. Can you locate 4 

### spot 9 

### on that? 5 A 

### It's right there, sir. 6 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, looking 7 

### at Exhibit 4, 

### you will see above terminal C a 8 

### little circular 9. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Slow down. With 10 

### these glasses I'm still trying to find C. 11 

### MR. EMERSON: I can indicate it, 12 

### if it's helpful, Your Honor. The witness has 13 

### indicated spot 9. 

### I know it's small. See the 14 

### circular 9 

### right there? 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I like the bigger 16 

### schematic that we had at the last hearing. I 17 

### couldn't get it folded into my briefcase. 18 

### Just for the record, 

### c is 19 approximately just left of center on Exhibit 20 4A. 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Now, the 22 aircraft, the SkyWest aircraft, that you NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 1/1/WW.nealrgross.com

### 77

1 

### observed being de-iced before you approached 2 Echo 1, they're being a de-iced at spot 9? 3 A 

### From my recollection they were at 4 spot 9 or 10. They're kind of together right 5 there. 6 Q 

### Why didn't you take photographs of 7 this operation? 8 A 

### When did I? 9 Q 

### Why didn't you? 10 A 

### I -- 

### I'm not sure if I did or not 11 

### if I took I don't recall if 

### I did. 12 Q 

### You've seen the photographs 13 offered into evidence. Did you take any other 14 photographs than what has been offered today? 15 A 

### No. 16 Q 

### What device did you use to take 17 those photographs? 18 A 

### My iPhone. 19 Q 

### Doesn't the FAA issue you a 20 camera? 21 A 

### Yes, they do. 22 Q 

### Did you have that camera with you? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com78

1 A 

### I did but it was in the car in my 2 bag. 3 Q 

### Why didn't you use the camera that 4 the FAA issued to you to capture the images 5 that have been offeredas evidencehere today? 6 A 

### I was at the wing. It was cold. 7 I 

### I had a camera available on the iPhone so 8 I 

### I decided to take the picture with that. 9 Q 

### But you said you returned to your 10 car, repositionedit, and then got out to take 11 

### the photographs. Why didn't you get your 12 camera then? 13 A 

### I didn't think of it. I didn't 14 think to grab the camera at that time. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so the Court. 16 understandsto make the record clear, a little 17 bit

-- if you look left of center, you can see 18 where the control tower is. If you drop down 19 about an inch or so, you'll see black circles 20 

### with white numbers inside: 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 

### 21 13, 15, and 17. Are those places the various 22 de-icing locations? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com79

1 

### MR. EMERSON: You should probably 2 ask the witness, Your Honor. 3 

### THE WITNESS: I can help you, sir. 4 Can I stand up? 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, stand up. 6 

### THE WITNESS: So the white

-- 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 8 

### going to -- yeah. I'm trying to do this for 9 the purposes of the record. 10 If you look just left of center, 11 just above the vertical midpoint and the 12 horizontal midpoint, there's a -- the control 13 

### tower is marked. If you drop down about an 14 inch in the gray area, which is obviously 15 apron, you see black circles with white 16 

### numbers: 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, and 17. 17 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Are those various 19 de-icing positions? 20 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, in spots. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spots. 22 THE WITNESS: Here's 11 here. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com80 

### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 

### THE WITNESS: So these are the 3 apron located spot for de-icing. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You're pointing to 5 

### the legend which is over on the right-hand 6 

### side. 7 

### THE WITNESS: Correct. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So 9 when you're talking about spots 10 

### THE WITNESS:

-- I'm referring to 11 the black circles. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. So I think 13 you referred counsel to spot 9 or spot 10 14 which would be one of these two. 15 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Again for purposes 17 of the record, you also mentioned spot 23. 18 Where would that be on this schematic? 19 

### THE WITNESS: Okay. So the other 20 spots are for groundcontrol, taxi clearances. 21 So it's the

-- 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Different location NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww-N.nealrgross.com81

1 2 THE WITNESS: Correct. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- positions. 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. So spot 23 5 would be the square here. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Being here 7 again on the on the exhibit, if you 8 start with air carrier apron on this and on 4B 9 you'll see a black line that traverses lightly 10 right to left, goes around terminal A, and 11 then ends up at 23 which is at the bottom of 12 a string of boxes and circles. You don't get 13 the taxiway. But, anyway, the line goes 14 through apron location spot 23. Hopefullythe 15 record will be clear enough when I read it in 16 a couple months. 17 Thank you. 18 All right, Counsel. Thank you. 19 MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Your 20 Honor. 21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, you 22 testified that you arrived at at the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 "WWW.nealrgross.com82 1 aircraft at Echo 1 at 7:41a.m. How did you 2 come to think that that was the time you 3 arrived? 4 A I recall there being some sort of 5 electronic board that's typical for it 6 helps the crews see how much minutes they have 7 till push. And I believe it said minus 10 and 8 the scheduled push for this flight was 7:51, 9 so by deduction I arrived at 7:41. 10 Q You testified you took the 11 photograph at 7:48 and that you know that 12 because that information was on your 13 telephone. Is that information still on your 14 telephone? 15 A It's not. 16 Q Why not? 17 A I don't have that phone anymore, 18 sir. 19 Q You testified at your deposition 20 that you downloaded this photogr,aph to your 21 FAA computer. Is that correct? 22 A That's correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WINVII.nealrgross.com83

1 Q 

### So that data must still exist on 2 your computer. 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### It does? 5 A 

### The picture is on the computer, 6 sir. 7 Q 

### Well, SkyWest has repeatedly 8 

### requested an electronic copy of that and have 9 

### been told by Counsel that it doesn't exist. 10 

### So it's your testimony today that that 11 

### photographexists in electronicformat on your 12 

### work computer? 13 A 

### I believe that was my testimony at 14 

### the deposition. I emailed that photo to my 15 

### my computer, which I believe is still on my 16 

### computer. 17 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we'd be 18 

### happy to provide that. 19 

### MR. EMERSON: Well, it's a little 20 

### late in the day. I'm in the 21 

### cross-examination. We've asked for this for 22 several weeks now repeatedly and been told NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com84 

### 1 that it's

-- was destroyed in the ordinary 2 course of business which left me nonplussed 3 since evidenceusually isn't destroyed in the 4 ordinary course of business. So I suppose if 5 it matters we might have to delay proceedings 6 to get into the metadata, which is all the 7 additional information that comes with the 8 photograph that's taken from an iPhone or an 9 electronic camera. 10 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Would you agree? 11 A I -- 

### 12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, that's 13 not a question the witness should answer. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just

-- Counsel. 15 

### Go ahead, Mr. Emerson. 16 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Would you agree 17 that metadatawas includedwith the photograph 18 that you took and saved to your computer? 19 A 

### I don't think it was. With that 20 

### version of the iPhone I I really wasn't 21 familiar with what metadata was. I know that 22 some phones do capturethat. I looked on that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com85 

### 1 iPhone, got some help from some people in the 2 office, and that the metadata is the 3 

### location, time, that kind of thing. Right? 4 Is that correct? 5 

### Q 

### Yes. 6 A That information

-- I wasn't able 7 to find it. I 'm not sure -- 8 Q 

### Sounds like you're not sure even 9 what it is. So did you conduct a search of 10 your computer for the metadata that was 11 included with the electronic photograph that 12 you took? 13 A 

### The the picture was just 14 emailed to my -- my computer so 15 Q 

### Anything other than looking at 16 that picture, did you do a search and look at 17 the metadata? 18 A 

### I

-- yeah, I looked. And I don't 19 think that that data was there. 20 Q 

### That data would include a GPS 21 location down to the foot of where this 22 photograph was taken. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com86 

### 1 A 

### Right. Yeah, that informationwas 2 not available. 3 Q 

### The time stamp of the photograph. 4 Is that available? 5 A 

### I

-- I'm not sure if

-- if it was 6 included in that or not. 7 Q 

### Whether or not the photograph was 8 modified will be included in the metadata. 9 Has this photograph in Exhibit 3

-- has this 10 photograph been modified in any way since it 11 was captured on your telephone? 12 A 

### Not in any way, no. 13 Q 

### Look at Exhibit 3 for a moment, 14 

### would you, Mr. Perkins? Can you tell by 15 looking at Exhibit 3 whether or not this wing 16 is attached to ship N426 Sierra Whiskey? 17 A 

### From this photograph, it wouldnot 18 be able to determine it's attached to 426. 19 Q 

### This could be the wing of any 20 RJ200 parked out at the ramp that day? 21 A 

### It's not. 22 Q 

### But by looking at this photograph, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISUINDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com87 

### 1 you wouldn't be able to tell whether this was 2 attached to the airship in question or some 3 other airplane. 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### You said this is not a complete 6 photo of the frost. What's missing? 7 A 

### The remainder of the wing. 8 Q 

### Which way? 9 A 

### Both ways. We're missing the 10 outboard section where the winglet is, and 11 you're missing the rest of the wing that goes 12 to the fuselage. 13 Q 

### Okay. So very specifically you 14 can tell by looking at this photograph there 15 appears to be the formation of frost or 16 pre-frost but not uniform and not over the 17 

### entire wing. Would you agree? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### So very specifically, what portion 20 of the wing not in this picture still had 21 frost on it that you didn't photograph? 22 A 

### So what's represented here in the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com88

1 

### photo, you see these panels, it looked like 2 that moving towards the fuselage. 3 Q 

### There's one more panel to the 4 

### right moving towards the winglet. Yes? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### Was there frost present on the 7 right-handside of this picture in that panel? 8 A 

### I don't recall. 9 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, I know you have a lot 10 

### of experience with this aircraft. I'll 11 

### represent to you that there are four panels 12 

### towards the outboard side of the wing 13 

### configuredlike this. It appears you've taken 14

-- 

### you've captured portions of all four of 15 

### them, the two center and then it looks like 16 

### one on the right begins but isn't 17 photographed, and then the one on the left you 18 see a skiff of frost ln. 19 A 

### Okay. 20 Q 

### Do you agree that there are four 21 

### panels? 22 A 

### I wouldn't know unless I had a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww-N.nealrgross.com89

1 picture of the whole wing. It's not something 2 that I would know offhand, how many panels 3 there were. 4 Q From your extensive experience 5 with the aircraft, does that sound about 6 right? 7 A It's not something you really have 8 to know or are trained on, is counting the 9 panels. That's typically not included in the 10 training. So if you have a picture of the 11 wing, I could confirm or deny that there's 12 four. 13 Q But you couldn't say either way? 14 A 

### No. 15 Q The largest panel in this 16 photograph, what would you say the dimensions 17 of that panel is if you were to measure around 18 the rivets? 19 A It would be a guess. It's maybe 20 30 inches by 30 inches. It's just a guess. 21 Q You testified in your deposition 22 you're not particularlygood at guessing sizes NEAL

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### 1 and shapes or the depth of the frost or 2 measurements. Would it surprise you to learn 3 that the

-- or would you believe it would be 4 inconsistent with your knowledge of this 5 

### aircraft to know that that square is 6 approximately 12 inches by 12 inches or one 7 square foot? 8 A 

### I 'm sorry. Was your question do I 9 believe that's the square foot? 10 Q 

### Yes, that the measurement if 

### 11 you took a ruler and laid it across those 12 rivets, you would find that it's one square 13 foot. 14 A 

### Unless I was at the wing with a 15 ruler-- I just said it was 30 by 30. That's 16 

### what my my guess would be. 17 Q 

### So your guess is twice as large as 18 what I'm proffering to you as the-- 19 A 

### We know the wingspan 20 Q 

### potential size? 21 A 

### The wingspan on the CRJ is about 22 70 feet from tip to tip. I don' t know the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 91

1 

### length of the fuselage-- or the width of the 2 fuselage. So I'm guessing each wing, maybe 30 3 feet. 4 Q 

### If this wing was in this room and 5 you put the root at that window would the tip 6 extend into the hallway? 7 A 

### I don't think so. 8 Q 

### Would it end at the wall? 9 A 

### If the fuselage was at the window 10 you're saying? 11 Q 

### Yes. 12 A 

### With the tip into the wall? 13 Q 

### Yes. About 30 feet of wing? 14 A 

### That's about right I would say. 15 If you divided that up into four panels, 16 probably more than a foot. 17 Q 

### Indeed. Wouldn't you say from the 18 

### perspective you took this panel this 19 photograph that it

-- it is

-- is a closeup. 20 Is that right? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### Does it tend to exaggerate the NEAL

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1 

### size of these panels? 2 A 

### Is that a question? 3 Q 

### Yes. 4 A 

### Does it exaggerate the size? I 5 

### wouldn't say it would. 6 Q 

### If the wing started at that wall 7 

### and ended over here and those panels were one 8 

### square foot and there were four of them and 9 

### you took the photograph

-- you said it hits 10 

### you about midchest. You took the photograph 11 

### here. Yes? 12 A Somewhere around there, yes. 13 Q 

### Wouldn't this angle tend to show 14 ln a closeup an exaggerated size of the wing 15 surface? 16 A 

### I guess my answer to that would be 17 if you take a photo of something close, within 18 the frame of the picture it will look bigger 19 than if you took it from a farther distance 20 

### away. I'm not sure I could say it would 21 exaggerate the

-- the size. 22 Q 

### Okay. On the four outboardpanels NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com93 

### 1 represented by my folder, you just testified 2 

### you know those three had frost. You're not 3 sure if this one did 4 A 

### Correct. 5 Q 

### -- is that right? 6 

### Where

-- where else is there frost 7 on this wing that's not shown in that 8 photograph? 9 A 

### I couldn't say for certainbecause 10 I didn't inspect the front of the wing. 11 Q 

### Well, you just said that there 12 was. So now you're not certain? 13 A 

### I said that there was? 14 Q 

### You said there was frost on this 15 aircraft that's not shown in this photograph. 16 A 

### Right. 17 Q 

### Where? 18 A 

### Which I testified it's

-- it's on 19 the panels going in towards the fuselage. 20 Q 

### This way towards the fuselage. 21 Yes? 22 A 

### In our courtroom scenario, yes, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com94 

### 1 the fuselage over here. 2 Q 

### So you've got a photograph of all 3 four panels in there, at least portions of 4 

### them. It ends. And then it's where's the 5 

### frost from here, this way? Is it on the 6 trailing edge or the leading edge? 7 A It's

-- like I mentioned a little 8 earlier, it's representative of

-- what you 9 see here is what the

-- the panels look like 10 leading to the fuselage. 11 Q 

### Is there any frost outside the 12 panels? Did you observe any frost outside the 13 panels? 14 A 

### Not that I remember seeing. 15 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 'm 16 

### going to object to that last question. I 

### 17 think the panels as described by Mr. Emerson 18 

### is a vague question. So would the counsel 19 mind clarifying what he means by panels? 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 21 MR. EMERSON: Absolutely. 22 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, look NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com95

1 

### at Exhibit 3. Do you see those rivets that 2 seem to form squares 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### -- in panels? That's what I mean 5 

### when I say panels. 6 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, is this 7 

### referring just to the panels that are in the 8 

### photograph or to the rest of the panels that 9 

### comprise the aft section of the aircraft's 10 

### right wing? 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The important 12 

### thing is whether or not the witness 13 

### understands the question. 14 

### Why don't you inquire into that? 15 Q (By 

### MR. EMERSON) You answered 16 before and you didn't seem confused so -- but 17 I'll ask you again. This photograph shows 18 portions of four panels. Correct? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### It appears to capture two panels 21 

### almost in their entirety and then little 22 slivers of the other two. Correct? NEAL

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1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Your testimonywas you're not sure 3 

### whether the farthest outboardpanel had frost 4 

### on it. We then have the picture of No. 2 and 5 

### No. 3 and No. 4. Just the corner of it shows 6 up on the left-hand side of that photograph. 7 

### I asked you whether

-- where the rest of the 8 frost was that you testified about but wasn't 9 

### in the photograph 10 A 

### Uh-huh. 11 Q 

### and you said it was in, and 12 

### limited to, that fourth panel. Is that 13 

### correct? 14 A 

### Yes. On that right wing, yes. 15 Q 

### Is there any frost any other place 16 on this airplane that you observed? 17 A 

### The left wing. 18 Q 

### Was it limited to these four 19 

### corresponding panels on the left side? 20 A 

### I couldn't say if it was on all 21 

### four of those panels, but I know that from my 22 distance to looking at the wing it was readily NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com97 

### 1 apparent -- readily apparent and obvious that 2 there was frost in the same location on those 3 panels, so if that answers your question. 4 Q 

### That does. 5 

### Did you observe any frost outside 6 

### of those four panels on the left wing? 7 A 

### No. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so the 9 record's clear

-- this is for the witness. 10 Looking at Exhibit 3

-- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: you can see 13 

### four panels. The left side of the picture 14 would be in the direction towards the 15 

### fuselage. Is that correct? 16 

### THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And so the right 18 of the photograph would be in a direction 19 towards what's called the winglet, which is 20 

### the upswing at the end of the wing. Is that 21 correct? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. NEAL

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 2 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) It appears from 3 the photograph, Mr. Perkins, that actuallythe 4 right side of the wing is bigger than the 5 

### left, if you look at Exhibit 3. It appears 6 like the wing is gettingbigger as it

-- as it 7 moves to the right. Is that just a distortion 8 of

-- of the photographor does the airplane's 9 wing actuallyget biggeras you move outboard? 10 A 

### No, the wing does not get bigger 11 

### as you move outboard. So it's just

-- just 12 the way the photo looks. 13 Q 

### It's a consequence of the angle 14 

### and how you took it on a closeup. 15 

### A Perhaps, yes. 16 Q 

### Where does that wing strike you 17 

### when you come up to the

-- 

### to the back of it 18 

### to take that photograph? 19 A 

### Somewhere between, I guess, my 20 waist and torso area. 21 Q 

### I stood behind one yesterday, and 22 it hit me about right here. Does that seem to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com99 

### 1 be the correct height to you or would you 2 place it higher or lower? 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, for 4 the record describe what right here is. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: If I was playing 6 baseball, it's the top of the strike zone, 7 

### right maybe shoulder to shoulder three 8 inches down. 9 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Does that appear 10 to be where the

-- 11 A 

### How tall are you, sir? 12 Q 

### -- that part. 13 

### I'm 6' tall. 14 A 

### Six feet. Yeah, I'm 6'1'' and I 15 think it's probably a little bit lower for 16 myself. 17 Q 

### I'm 6' with my shoes on and 18 without a haircut. 19 A 

### Okay. 20 Q 

### Okay. So that's about right. 21 

### You had to take a picture by 22 holding it up in the air. Were you looking NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com100

1 through the view finder or did you hold it 2 away to take that picture? 3 A I was about

-- I was certainly 4 looking through the view finder to -- to see 5 what I was capturing. 6 Q If the podium was the surface of 7 the wing, you're taking it about like this? 8 A Something like that. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again, describe 10 the angle for the

-- for the record. 11 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Say the podium is 12 four and a half feet tall, would you agree, if 13 I'm 6 standing at my full ... 14 A Yes. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: But the angle of 16 the pictureyou're showing, the

-- the witness 17 would have been holding the camera at about 18 head level or above pointing down towards the 19 wing. Is that correct? 20 THE WITNESS: Head level sir? No. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, what I'm-- 22 why don't you describe if you were standing at NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com101 1 the wing how you would be holding the camera. 2 THE WITNESS: Standingup it would 3 be just about

-- 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You need to paint 5 a word picture. That's the difficult thing 6 about testimony. Because remember if

-- when 7 I make the decision, if somebody appeals this, 8 this goes up to an appellate level. They 9 don't have pictures of what we're doing in the 10 courtroom, so you need to paint a word picture 11 of what it is that you were doing so that 12 someone who is just reading the record can 13 understand what it is we're talking about. 14 So describe go through the 15 motions of what you're doing and then describe 16 in words what you're doing. 17 THE WITNESS: Can I stand up? 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. So you're 19

-- how tall are you? 20 THE WITNESS: I'm 6'1". 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So 22 you're 6'1". We've agreed that the wing is NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 'NWW.nealrgross.com

### 102 1 approximately four feet above the ground. 2 THE WITNESS: It's somewhere up 3 

### here. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Which is the bench 5

-- 

### the

-- 6 

### THE WITNESS: The bench. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: bar of the 8 

### bench. 9 

### THE WITNESS: Strikes me between 10 my, I guess, belly button and nipple line. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: So roughly the 12 bottom of your ribcage. 13 

### THE WITNESS: Correct. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So the 15 

### wing is approximatelybottom of your ribcage. 16 

### And how would you be holding the camera? 17 

### THE WITNESS: So facing it 18 

### perpendicular holding holding the camera 19 about chest

-- 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: It appears to me 21 about a line between your your armpits or 22 just below your shoulders. Is that correct? NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 103

1 

### THE WITNESS: That's correct. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Were you using a 3 cell phone? 4 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 6 

### THE WITNESS: Using a cell phone 7 

### lookingthroughthe view finder to capture the 8 

### image. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. And 10 aiming down at approximately a 45-degree 11 

### angle? 12 

### THE WITNESS: Approximately. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, Mr. 14 Spitzer, do you have any disagreementwith the' 15 description? 16 

### MR. SPITZER: No

-- 17 

### MR. EMERSON: No. 18 

### MR. SPITZER: No disagreement, 19 Your Honor. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) From the angle of 22 the frost and the

-- where the fuselage was NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com104 1 positioned, could you have taken a photograph 2 capturingboth the frost and tail registration 3 number of the aircraft? 4 A I believe I could have. 5 Q Why didn't you? 6 A You know, again, I wasn't out 7 doing the surveillance to prepare for a court 8 case where I would have needed photos that 9 you've just described. So I wasn't really 10 thinkirg about

-- about a photo that you're 11 describing. I think

-- 12 Q Well, you took the photo to 13 document a potential violation, didn't you? 14 A That' s why we take photos is to -- 15 Q You're not a tourist. 16 A

-- document the work, and I guess 17 if needed later it's there so... 18 Q But other than your testimony, you 19 don't have the metadata to correlate the 20 picture of the wing with the aircraft and you 21 didn't take a picture of the wing and the 22 aircraft together to demonstrate in court NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 W'o/'Nol.nea!rgross.com105 1 today that this aircraft had this frost on its 2 wings. Is that right? 3 A That's right. 4 Q You testified earlier that you 5 believed that the crew was aware of the frost 6 when they pushed back. How did you why 7 would you think that they were aware of the s frost? 9 A That they were aware? 10 Q Yes. 11 A I don't believe I testified to 12 that. 13 Q Did I hear you wrong? I'm sorry. 14 A You must have, yeah. I don't 15 believe the crew was aware. They were not 16 aware of the frost when they pushed back. 17 Q Who else was present on the ramp 18 when you performed your inspection? 19 A There were some ground operations 20 personnel doing their duties loadingthe bags. 21 Q Did you point out the frost to 22 them? NEAL

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### 106

1 A 

### No. 2 Q 

### Did you go around to the front of 3 the plane and knock on the door and say, 4 You've got frost on your wings? 5 A 

### No. 6 Q 

### So you took that photograph 7 because you thought they were going to miss it 8 and just go and take off and you'd be able to 9 prove it later that there'd been a violation. 10 A 

### No. 11 Q 

### That's why you took the photo. 12 A 

### No. 13 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, you testified that 14 

### this aircraft taxied out to spot 23. We've 15 blown it up because my eyes aren't as good as 16 yours. Gate El --here's theE terminal. Do 17 you agree that El would be south of the 18 picture and off the picture? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### I 'm going to give you a marker, 21 and I would like you again to trace the course 22 that the aircraft took out to spot -- NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com107

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, if you use 2 that 3 Q (By MR. EMERSON) 23. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 5 have you mark it and mail it to DC. 6 MR. EMERSON: Okay. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: What you might do 8 if you have a -- let's see if I've got a 9 different color. 10 MR. EMERSON: I have different 11 colors. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Yeah, let's 13

-- Mr. Spitzer, just for the record you used 14 what looks like a black marker. So use 15 anything but black. 16 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead with 17 black. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, if 19 you need to move so you can see. 20 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 21 Honor. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: And for both NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WW'W.nealrgross.com

### 108 1 Counsel, if one of you approachesthe witness, 2 you've got my -- the Court's permission to 3 approach the witness as well. 4 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 5 Honor. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### What I did in 7 another case, Mr. Emerson, we had a very large 8 blowup like you did here and, Mr. Spitzer, 9 what the Court did is took a copy of it. I've 10 got a digital camera in my room and we just 11 took a digital picture of it, marked that as 12 the exhibit and substitutedfor the original. 13 So if we get to that point what I'll do is 14 retrieve the camera, take a digital picture 15 and share with you and then you can agree or 16 disagree whether to substitute the digital 17 picture for the large blowup. It's a shame. 18 I was hoping to cover a hole in the wall by 19 using it. 20 A 

### Todd, if I do this, you're not 21 going to be able to see it. It's black on 22 black. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWIN.nealrgross.com

### 109

1 Q 

### There you go. There's blue. Go 2 ahead and make a big fat line there so it can 3 be seen at a distance, Mr. Perkins. 4 A 

### The pen's running out of ink. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Works for an 6 airline. Doesn't have a lot of money. He's 7 paying all the fines to the FAA. 8 Have you identified, Mr. Emerson, 9 this as a particular exhibit? 10 MR. EMERSON: This is actually in 11 your book, Your Honor, as -- 12 A 

### We've got to switch. 13 Q 

### Okay. Let's switch to green. I 

### 14 don't think the airplane changed colors, but 15 the path might. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this Exhibit 2? 17 

### MR. EMERSON: This is Exhibit 2, 18 Your Honor, yes. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: What we might do 20 

### let's have him mark this exhibit, and 21 during the break we' 11 have him mark the 22 actual Exhibit 2 using the same color. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 ININW.nealrgross.com110 1 A 

### Okay. You should be able to see 2 that. 3 Q 

### Would you also mark where you 4 positioned your car around spot 23? 5 A 

### Just like an X works for you? 6 Q 

### An X would be great. 7 A 

### (Witness complies.) 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Draw a circle 9 

### around the X. 

### The reason I'm saying that is 10 

### on one of the prior exhibits, the FAA 11 

### exhibits, we put an X 

### for the

-- a different 12 

### purpose. 13 Q (By 

### MR. EMERSON) Okay. Mr. 14 Perkins, it's your testimonythat the aircraft 15 departed El, which is not in the picture but 16 immediatelyoff the pictureon the bottom, and 17 headed westbound around what we call the Y, 18 then turned south along the path near the Y 19 until we get to the fence, then turned 20 

### westbound and held at spot 23. Is that 21 

### correct? 22 A 

### That's correct. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 111

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: For orientation 2 purposes, Exhibit 2 is marked

-- west wouldbe 3 the top of the schematic, south would be the 4 left side of the schematic. 5 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) You testified 6 that you followed the aircraft and then at 7 some point became a beam of the aircraft and 8 

### took a parallel path. Is that correct? 9 A 

### That's correct. 10 Q 

### At what point did you become 11 parallel with the aircraft? 12 A 

### I would say-- here's the service 13 road here that I was driving on. As soon as 14 I

-- as soon as -- 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. For the 16 record, it appears that the taxiway we're 17 referring to is to the left side of the 18 schematic, and you've indicateda place to the 19

-- to the right there's a very close double 20 line. Is that a service access road, as they 21 say? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 112

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, at the top of 2 that is an X, is that

-- with a circle around 3 

### it. 4 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And that

-- and 6 that identifies where you parked your car? 7 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. And so 9 you followed the

-- the road below which 10 from west to east would be the

-- from the 11 point of the X with the circle around it, that 12 would be the service access road that you 13 traversed. And is it your testimony that you 14 were roughly a beam of the aircraft on the 15 right

-- 16 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: starboard side 18 as they say? 19 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) The moment you 21 became a beam, would you put an X and circle 22 that and make that No. 1? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com113

1 A 

### (Witness complies.) 2 Q 

### And then please place a No. 2 by 3 

### your other X 

### to represent that's where you 4 

### finishedyour pursuit. You were also a beamof 5 

### the aircraft there. Correct? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### And then the aircraft departed 8 

### from spot 23 

### and you did not follow it any 9 

### further. 10 A 

### That's correct. 11 Q 

### Look at Exhibit No. 3 

### and 4, 12 

### please. Do you know what time the sun came up 13 

### on December 7, 2011, 

### in Salt Lake City? 14 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 15 

### Honor. What time the sun came up is not 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, 3 is 3 

### is 17 a picture of the aircraft and 4 is the 18 schematic. 19 

### MR. EMERSON: Oh. Is this 9 or a 20 4, Rob? 21 

### MR. SPITZER: That's 9. 22 

### MR. EMERSON: That's a 9? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Wo/1/W.nealrgross.com

### 114

1 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) I 'm sorry. I 

### 2 want you to look at 3 and 9. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The objection's 4 overruled. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: Counsel, has pulled 6 a fast one on me. 7 A 

### I'm sorry. Could you repeat your 8 question? 9 Q 

### Yes. Looking at Exhibit 9 and 3, 10 

### I just want you to take that in. Does it 11 appear that those photographs

-- the aircraft 12 in those photographs, is it sitting in direct 13 sunlight or low light conditions or something 14 else? 15 A 

### Well, the the photograph was 16 taken, I guess, with the available light that 17 that existed that time of the morning. 18 Q 

### Please describe that light. 19 A 

### The light would be less than 20 direct sunlight and not dark enough where you 21 need a flashlight. 22 Q 

### Do you know the official sunrise NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 115 1 time in Salt Lake City December 7, 2011? 2 A 

### You told me in the deposition it 3 

### was 7:3

### 0 in the morning. I believe that to be 4 

### true. 5 Q 7:38 

### I believe I told you. It 6 sounds like you don't know. As part of your 7 

### your your investigation, did you 8 determine at what time the sun rose in Salt 9 Lake City 10 A 

### No. 11 Q 

### -- December 7, 2011? Thank you. 12 A 

### No. 13 Q 

### From this photograph it does not 14 appear this aircraft is in direct sunlight 15 then. Is that correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q 

### If the photograph was taken at 18 7:48 

### and the sunrise was at 7:38, 

### would it 19 appear that this aircraft is in the shade cast 20 by the shadow of the terminal building or the 21 mountains? 22 A 

### Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com116

1 Q 

### I want you to look at my book of 2 exhibits and flip to No. 1, please. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Your book is 4 actuallyRespondent'sexhibitsfor the record. 5 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Respondent's 6 exhibits R-1 please. Have you located it? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### Would you take that green pen and 9 circle the aircraft that's parked at Echo 1 in 10 that photograph? And please do it for His 11 Honor's exhibit as well. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: What you might do 13 is whatever terminal is E just put an E in the 14 center of the structure. So that entire line 15 is E. Is that correct? 16 

### MR. EMERSON: That's correct. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, do 18 you want to see this or do you trust his 19 judgment? 20 MR. SPITZER: I 

### trust his 21 judgment, Your Honor. 22 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) So you have NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WW"W.nea!rgross.com117 

### 1 circledwhere shipNovember426 SierraWhiskey 2 would have been parked the morning of 3 September

-- of December 7, 2011. 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### Is that correct? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### What is immediately east of the 8 aircraft? 9 A 

### The terminal building. 10 Q 

### Do you remember if that is one or 11 two or three stories high? 12 A 

### I think it's two stories high. 13 Q 

### With the sun rising in the east, 14 is it possible that aircraft is parked in the 15 shade of the terminalbuildinguntil such time 16 that the sun is high enough to supply direct 17 sunlight to that location? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### When that aircraft pushed back 20 

### from the gate, didn't it immediately enter 21 direct sunlight? 22 A 

### Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com118

1 Q 

### How long was the taxi time for 2 this aircraft from gate to takeoff on the 3 

### runway? Looks like you're referring to 4 Exhibit 6. 5 

### A Exhibit 6. Eight minutes. 6 Q 

### Eight minutes from departure to 7 takeoff, from

-- from the out time to the gate 8 to the off time on the runway? 9 A 

### You asked me the taxi time, sir, 10 from the taxi time takeoff, which is 8 11 minutes. They began their taxi at 1500 Zulu, 12 

### which is 8:00 local. They were airborne at 13 

### 8:08. 14 Q 

### You're talking from spot 23. 15 A 

### No. No. The exhibit shows that 16 the brakes were released at 1451

-- 1452

-- 17 Q 

### That also

-- excuse me. That also 18 

### shows the out time on the ACARS. If you'll 19 continue across, 1451, that's out. 20 A 

### Which

-- right, which means that 21 

### 22 Q 

### We've departed from the gate? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WoNW.nealrgross.com119

1 A No. 

### Which means that the

-- the 2 door is closed, the brakes are released, and 3 

### they're pushing back. That's when the out 4 

### time is recorded. 5 Q 

### So we have-- 1451 we have an out. 6 We have the cargo door closed, we have the 7 

### brake release all simultaneous or thereto 8 

### within the minute: 1452, push and movement. 9 So from 1452 to the off time at 1508

-- 10 A 

### That's-- that's inaccurate. 1452 11 to 1458 is their pushback. At the

-- at the 12 conclusionof the pushingback the ground crew 13 

### asked the captain to set his brake which is 14 shown here at 1458. At 1500, 8:00 on the 15 hour, he released his brakes, began his taxi. 16 Arrived at spot 23 at 1502, sat there until 17 1504, released his brakes, taxied for take 18 off. 19 Q 

### So this is completely different 20 than your deposition testimony. I don't know 21 if you'd like to take a moment to consult with 22 Counsel so we don't have a big

-- bunch of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 W'W'W.nealrgross.com

### 120 1 confusion or are we completely changing the 2 testimony? 3 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, if this 4 

### is what he's testifyingto -- he's here today. 5 

### He's welcome to testify to whatever. 6 

### You're welcome to impeach him. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the 8 

### testimony that's on the record. 9 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I'm 10 approaching with the sealed copy of the 11 deposition of Inspector Aaron Perkins. 12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I will 13 

### highlight the fact that Inspector Perkins has 14 

### been on an extendedvacationand didn't return 15 

### until Saturday, so he has not had a chance to 16 

### review and sign or correct any discrepancies. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm sure Mr. 18 

### Emerson will give him the opportunity. 19 

### Again I'm giving you that 20 opportunity, Mr. Spitzer, if you'd like to 21 consult with your witness because we have 22 vastly different testimony. And I don't think NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 121 1 it's really in doubt, but if you want to not 2 

### take that opportunity, I'm happy to go 3 forward. If he's been on vacation and needs 4 

### a moment to prepare, I'm happy to give that to 5 

### you. 6 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you. It's not 7 

### necessary. He can testify as to his 8 

### knowledge. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 10 

### Counsel, in your book you've got 4 

### 11 exhibits. Am I correct? 12 MR. EMERSON: I 

### do. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So the 14 Court's going to mark this

-- I'm going to 15 mark the outside of the folder as Respondent's 16

-- you're doing R. 17 

### MR. EMERSON: Yes. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: 5. 19 

### MR. EMERSON: R-5. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Counsel. 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, do 22 

### you remember giving a deposition your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 122 1 deposition in this matter on Wednesday, 2 January 15th? 3 A 

### Yes. Yes. 4 Q 

### Were you represented by counsel 5 during that deposition? 6 

### A Yes. 7 

### Q Is that counsel here today? 8 

### A Yes. 9 

### Q Is that Mr. Spitzer? 10 

### A Yes. 11 Q This A CARS report that you've 12 relied on here in court you also relied on to 13 

### create your investigative report. Is that 14 correct? 15 A 

### That's correct. 16 Q 

### You set the timelines in that 17 investigativereport based off this ACARS and 18 

### put those into your report. Is that right? 19 A 

### That's right. 20 Q 

### At your deposition you testified, 21 page 61. 22 

### "QUESTION: Your report says there NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 123 1 was a brief delay at spot 23 and then the 2 airplane left. 3 

### "ANSWER: That's correct. It 4 

### taxied out to runway three four left. 5 

### "Does brief delay mean less than a 6 

### minute?" 7 

### Your answer: "They were there for 8 

### approximately six minutes." 9 

### Do you believe that aircraft was 10 parked at spot 23 for six minutes? 11 A 

### No. I 

### believe it was there for

-- 12 for two minutes. 13 Q 

### Why are you changing your answer 14 

### today? 15 A I 

### don't remember giving you those 16 

### exact times. I 

### do

-- 17 Q 

### Would you like to see your 18 

### deposition? 19 A 

### No, that's not necessary. I 

### do 2

### o remember that I did not have this Exhibit 6 in 21 front of me when I was answering your 22 questions in the depositionas I have today in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 124

1 

### front of me. So 2 Q 

### Okay. 3 A 

### -- my answers are more accurate 4 today with this

-- this piece of evidence in 5 my hand. 6 Q 

### So let's walk through this at -- 7 we're back on Exhibit 6. SkyWest data is that 8 we're out from the gate at 7:51 a.m. local 9 

### time. Also the cargo door closes and the 1

### o brake is released. Turn the page. One minute 11 later there's push/movement. Would you agree 12 with that? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Then six six minutes later the 15 brake is set. 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### So this aircraft is moving for six 18 minutes. Agreed? 19 A 

### Not necessarily moving. The next 20 

### data point for ACARS is brake set. So they 21 can push the airplane and it can stop, they 22 can push again. The next data point is brake NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 "WWW.nealrgross.com

### 125 1 set so. 2 Q 

### Well, we're not talking about

-- 3 we're talking about the parking brake with 4 brake set. Agreed? 5 A 

### Correct. 6 Q 

### This isn't the foot pedal to slow 7 down when you're driving the car or the 8 airplane. They have come to a full stop. 9 A Right. 10 Q 

### Okay. That aircraft was in 11 movement for six minutes and came to a stop 12 somewhere, Mr. Perkins. At your deposition 13 you said it was spot 23. Where is it now if 14 it wasn't there? 15 A 

### We're talk

-- we're talking about 16 the pushbackhere. They releasedtheirbrakes 17 at 7:51. Then you get clearance to push. They 18 get their clearance to push at 752, it 19 appears, and the pushback begins. 20 Q 

### I'm with you. 21 A 

### Okay. 22 Q 

### The aircraft is in motion. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nea!rgross.com

### 126

1 A 

### So they're pushing the airplane 2 back. That process, according to the ACARS, 3 looks like it took six minutes. 4 Q 

### You wouldn't set the brake at the 5 

### end of pushback. 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### You just put the airplane forward 8 and go. 9 A No. 

### 10 Q 

### You're saying that aircraft

-- it 11 moved it took six minutes to push back 100 

### 12 feet? 13 A 

### The common pushback procedure is 14 at the

-- when the ground crew is done pushing 15 the airplane back, they will ask the captain 16 to set the brake. That's standard pushback 17 procedure. Meanwhile, they're disconnecting 18 the towbar, moving the groundequipmentout of 19 the way. The crew is starting engines. Then 20 they release the brake at 8:00 

### in the a.m., 21 8:00 

### even, and start taxiing. 22 Q 8:00 

### even and started taxiing in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 127

1 

### two minutes. It takes them four minutes to 2 move 100 feet, but then in two minutes they 3 trace this trail all the way out to spot 23. 4 

### That's your testimony? 5 A 

### I believe that's what the ACARS 6 

### are showing us, yes. 7 Q 

### They must have violated the ramp 8 

### speeds. Did you write them a violation for 9 

### that? 10 A 

### No. I don't believe it would take 11 more than two minutes to taxi that route. 12 Q 

### Brake is set then at 1502, which 13 

### is 8:02? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### Then what happened? 16 A 

### Continue to walk through this 17 exhibit? 18 Q 

### Yes. 19 A 

### Okay. So at 8:04 they-- captain 20 

### releases the brakes. They begin their taxi 21 for the runway. The next thing we see, at 8 :08 22 they're off the ground. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 128

1 Q 

### Okay. So even though the ACARS 2 data, which you relied upon to make your 3 report, says that this aircraft was off the 4 gate at at least 7:52, what do you believe the 5 correct out time from the gate was? 6 A 

### What do I believe the correct out 7 time from the gate? I guess, as we just went 8 

### through, I believe that the brake was 9 

### released, cargo doors were closed, the 10 

### beacon's on, which I believe are the 11 parameters to record the out time that 12 happened at 7:52

-- or 7:51, rather. 7:52 13 they're pushing back, and I believe that the 14 moment that they're leaving, taxiingaway from 15 the gate 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just

-- I don't 17 mean to interrupt your thought process, but 18 you're talking about 1752. The ACARS report 19 

### shows Zulu time. Is that correct? 20 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Zulu is 22 Greenwich. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 'o./'IWN.nealrgross.com

### 129

1 

### THE WITNESS: GreenwichMean Time. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So what is the 3 difference between

-- 4 

### THE WITNESS: There's a -- 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 6 

### THE WITNESS: There's a seven-hour 7 difference between. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I want to 9 

### make sure the record is clear. So when you 10 say 7:52, it's actually 1452 Zulu. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 13 A 

### So to get back to what I was 14 saying, Mr. Emerson, I believe the ACAR shows 15 that the airplane is leaving the gate at 8:00, 

### 16 or 1500 

### Zulu. 17 Q 

### Well, it's moving before then. 18 Correct? At 7:52 that aircraft is in motion 19 and doesn't stop moving. 20 A 

### I don't think that's accurate. If 21 like I mentioned earlier, during pushback 22 

### the next thing that ACARS records is the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com130

1 brake set. So when the airplane starts 2 rolling backwards during push, that's 3 that's what we have here recorded as the 4 push/movsnent. The next thing that we see 5 won't be until the groundoperationspersonnel 6 tells the captain to set his brake. When he 7 sets his brake, that's the next recordingthat 8 we get on ACARS. 9 Q Now, your entire testimony of this 10 taxi time is based off of this ACARS record 11 which you requestedfrom SkyWestAirlines. Is 12 that correct? 13 A 

### My entire testimony for 14 referencing the times? 15 Q Yes. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you have an independent 18 recollection of that airplane taking six 19 minutes to push back 100 feet? 20 A I don't think six minutes is an 21 abnormal long push so -- 22 Q Not my question. Do you have an NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 131 1 independent recollection or did you piece it 2 together solely by looking at this report? 3 A 

### My recollection is that's a pretty 4 

### standard pushback procedure which could take 5 six minutes so 6 Q 

### Did you take notes, your own 7 

### contemporaneous notes, of what happened as 8 this airplane pushed back, stopped, went 9 

### forward, any of those? 10 A No. 11 

### Q So your recollection is standard 12 departure. 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Is that your recollection? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### So when you testified at your 17 deposition this airplane sat in spot 23 for 18 

### six minutes and we've got a further 19 discussion what were they doing there for so 20 long and you speculated, well, I think they 21 were concerned that an FAA inspector was 22 trailing them and they were trying to figure NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE

.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 'o.IVWN.nealrgross.com132 

### 1 out what to do next. Has your memory changed 2 in the last three weeks for that timeline? 3 A 

### No, it hasn't, sir. I have had 4 the opportunity to review this exhibit that 5 

### we're discussing for times which which 6 clarifies the exact times of the airplane as 7 it progressed from pushback to takeoff. 8 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I need 9 one minute. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit 6 that 11 you're referring to, you're using an acronym. 12 What is that acronym? 13 

### THE WITNESS: ACARS. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell that. 15 

### THE WITNESS: A-C-A-R-S. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Which stands for 17 what? 18 

### THE WITNESS: Aircraft 19 communicationandreportingsystem, I believe. 20 (Brief pause.) 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) You said, Mr. 22 Perkins, you didn't have this report in front NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com133

1 of you at your deposition. Is that right? 2 A I don't remember reviewing it if 3 it was. 4 Q I'm going to refer you to page 37. 5 Your answer begins at line 7. Please read 6 from 7 to 17 out loud. 7 A "At that point I noted the 8 presence of frost. I returned to my vehicle, 9 moved the vehicle so I would not interfere 10 with the push. Several minutes later I exited 11 the vehicle to look at the right wing at which 12 time I noted frost on the right wing. Report 13 says 7:48 which I think was taken off my 14 camera. I took a photograph of the wing. I 15 took a photograph of the tail, returned to my 16 car and the aircraft pushed back. At 7:51 17 ACARS reported an out time. 7:52 showed 18 movement." 19 And you said, "Stop right there 20 for a second. Did you take a photograph of 21 the frost'' 22 Q That's fine. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 134

1 A 

### Okay. 2 Q 

### You testifiedthere that the ACARS 3 report said that the push time

-- the out time 4 

### was 7:52. Do you remember taking, I don't 5 know, a 10-minute break so I could make 6 photocopies of these reports and hand them to 7 you so you could refer to them during the 8 deposition? You seemed to be reading off the 9 ACARS report. 10 A 

### No. You made copies of statement 11 of case. Correct? 12 Q 

### The whole thing. 13 A 

### Yeah, I I don't think you 14 handed me the ACARS report. 15 Q 

### Nevertheless, when the airplane 16 pushed off the gate, you testified earlier 17 that it entered direct sunlight? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### And so that exposure to the 20 sunlight is about 17 minutes. 21 A 

### Can I do the math for a second? 22 Q 

### Sure. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNw.nealrgross.com135

1 A Yeah, 16 minutes of exposure. 2 Q The last time you observed the 3 frost you testifiedwas at 17

-- or at 7:52 in 4 the morning. Is that right? 5 A 7:52 they were pushing when I was 6 in my car, so, no. I would say the last time 7 I observed it was when I took the photograph. 8 Q At 7:48? 9 A 

### A few minutes prior, right. 10 Q You have no idea whether that 11 frost was on the wings by the time they got to 12 spot 23? 13 A I can speculate. The temperature 14 hasn't changed. I did not see the frost on 15 the wings from the distance I was at in my 16 car. 17 Q The temperature hasn't changed? 18 Is that what you said? 19 A The -- 20 Q You're under -- under the belief 21 that from the time that airplane was at the 22 gate to the time it departed that the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com136 

### 1 temperature didn't change? 2 A 

### We have the weather report which 3 we discussedearlierwas updatedhourly, so we 4 wouldn't know what the new temperature was 5 until the next report came out. 6 Q 

### How about all that exposure to the 7 solar radiation, does that tend to sublimate 8 frost? 9 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 10 

### Honor. Calls for question calls for 11 knowledgebeyond this witness's capabilities. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 13 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) How many hours 14 did you have did you say? 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. You 16 can answer the question. 17 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead and 18 

### answer, please. The question is: Would 16 19 minutes of exposure to solar radiationwork to 20 sublimate the frost that you observed on the 21 wings? 22 A 

### I suppose if the temperature was NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 137 1 increasing, if that was true, then that would 2 

### be accurate. 3 Q 

### Whether or not the temperaturewas 4 

### increasing, would the addition of solar 5 

### radiation tend to sublimate frost? 6 

### MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 7 

### Honor. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 9 A I 

### I wouldn 1

### t know. It 1

### s a 10 little beyond my realm of knowledge on the 11 subject. 12 Q 

### At what point did you know that 13 this aircraft was not going to get de-iced? 14 A 

### When they started their final taxi 15 at 8:04 is when I realized that they were not 16 

### intending to de-ice, they were their 17 intention was for takeoff. 18 Q 

### That 1

### s when they departed spot 23? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Were the de-icing operations 21 happening at this location that morning? 22 A 

### They weren 1

### t that morning, but NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com138

1 

### it's typical-- I should say reconfiguration 2 

### happens at airports. I've seen it happen that 3 4 Q 

### Now, spot 9 is north of these 5 

### gates. 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### You're telling me this aircraft 8 

### headed west and then turned south, directly 9 

### away from all the de-icing units

-- de-icing 10 

### spots. And you thought at that point it was 11 

### not going to takeoff, it was -- it could have 12 

### still decided to go back and get de-iced? 13 A 

### As you can see in front of you, 14 

### sir, there's-- there's multiple de-ice paths 15 

### in the direction they were heading. 16 Q 

### But no de-icing operations. 17 A 

### I had had not observed any 18 

### myself that morning, no, but it's not to say 19 

### that they couldn't have taken place there. 20 Q 

### They would have called for it on 21 

### the radio? 22 A 

### They would have been in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 139 1 communication with icemen, yeah. 2 Q 

### Did you have your radio with you 3 

### that morning? 4 A 

### I did. 5 Q 

### Is it a standard surveillance 6 

### procedure to listen to de-icing operations on 7 

### that radio? 8 A It 

### is. 9 Q 

### Did you ever hear that flight crew 10 call for de-icing? 11 A 

### I did not. 12 Q 

### Didn't you know the second that 13 airplane turned south it wasn't going to go 14 get de-iced? 15 A 

### I didn't know that. There's

-- 16 can I show you an exhibit for this answer? 17 Q 

### Sure. 18 A 

### Airport diagram, which one is 19 that? 20 Q 

### Probably 4. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: There's 4A and B. 22 Both are schematics. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww.N.nea!rgross.com140

1 A 

### Actually I believe I gave my 2 number 4 

### away. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Here. The Court' s 4 

### going to give him copies of 4, 

### which are the 5 

### original exhibits. 6 A 

### Can I 

### can you approach the 7 bench so I can show you? 8 Q 

### Sure. 9 A 

### So it's common for de-icing to 10 

### take place at spots 9, 10, 12 

### and 13, 

### spot 21. 11 

### Those locations I've observed de-icing 12 

### numerous times at the airport. The morning 13 

### of, de-icing was happening at 9 

### and 10 

### and 12 14 

### and 13. 

### The frequency for 9 

### and 10 

### is 15 

### different than the frequency for 12 

### and 13. 16 

### My radio was tuned into spot 9 

### and 10. 17 

### So to answer your question, they 18 

### could have been communicatingwith the icemen 19 

### on the frequency for 12 

### and 13. 

### It's 20 possible. 21 Q 

### There was de-icing operations at 22 12 

### and 13 

### on the morning of the 7th as well? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nea!rgross.com141 1 A 

### Yeah, that

-- from my recollection 2 they were using all four of these spots. 3 Q 

### Okay. But that aircraft taxis 4 

### west and then would have to take a sharp right 5 

### turn to make it over to the active de-icing 6 pads that morning. Instead you see it took a 7 

### hard left, head south and make its way to the 8 

### runway. When that airplane turned left, 9 didn't you suspect it was not on its way to 10 get de-iced? 11 A 

### Like I mentioned, there are de-ice 12 pads over here and reconfiguration is 13 certainly possible. 14 Q 

### But they're not de-icing there on 15 

### the 7th. You testified to that. They exist 16 but the trucks aren't there and the fluid 17 isn't there, so they're not getting de-iced 18 there. Right? 19 A As it turns out, no, they weren't. 20 Q 

### When that airplane turned away 21 from the de-icing pads, why didn't you call 22 with your radio to inform it that it had frost NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 142 1 on its wings? 2 A 

### Why didn't I call the crew? 3 Q 

### Yes. 4 A 

### The crew was not -- I didn't hear 5 

### the crew on on the spot nine de-icing 6 frequency. 7 Q 

### You had no ability to contact the 8 crew with your radio? 9 A 

### The crew would be monitoring most 10 

### likely. You can ask them. But they were 11 probably monitoring the ground frequency for 12 ATC, and their other radio was most likely 13 tuned into ops. Neither of those frequencies 14 I had. 15 Q 

### Your radio transponds? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### Is there anybody you could have 18 called to alert this aircraft that they had a 19 potentially hazardous situation on their 20 wings? 21 A 

### I didn't have the frequencies for 22 ATC who was in direct communication with

-- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com143 

### 1 with the crew. 2 Q 

### You work for the FAA. You don't 3 know how to call ATC? 4 A I 

### don't have the the 5 frequenciesmemorizedraisedat Salt Lake City 6 International. 7 Q 

### That's because you were new or-- 8 A 

### I was never based at Salt Lake 9 City as a pilot. It's not something that you 10 would memorize as an inspector. 11 Q 

### How about ground operations 12 A 

### Same

-- 13 Q 

### -- can you call them? 14 A 

### Same answer. These frequencies 15 are -- are distributedto the crews inside the 16 flight deck. That's how information is given 17 to the pilots. 18 Q 

### You knew the de-icingtransponders 19 for at least 9 and 10, which you were 20 observing. Why didn't you call the de-icing 21 operations and say, You have an airplane 22 departingwith frost on its wings, you should NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 144

1 

### stop it? Why didn't you call the frequency 2 you had? 3 A 

### I knew that they were not in 4 communication with the aircraft. 5 Q 

### How did you know that? 6 A 

### Because I had the frequency

-- I 7 

### was monitoring that frequency. I knew that 8 they were not in communicationwith the crew. 9 Q If 

### they're de-icing SkyWest 10 aircraft, do you think they'dhave the ability 11 to get in touch with that aircraft, call 12 operations? They're in touch with operations 13 certainly. 14 A 

### Possibly, yes. 15 Q 

### How about your cell phone, was it 16 

### other than taking photographs, was it 17 operable that morning? 18 A 

### Yes, it was. 19 Q 

### Could you have called a number for 20 air traffic control? 21 A 

### Had I had it, which I wish I did 22 Mr. Emerson, I wish I had these numbers, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com

### 145 1 but I didn't, didn't have the resource to make 2 that telephone call. 3 Q 

### How about anybody at the SkyWest 4 operations department, could you have called 5 anybody in St. George-- dispatch, Mr. Losee? 6 Did you have any numbers for any SkyWest 7 personnel in your possession? 8 A 

### At that time in my career I didn't 9 have any of those numbers on my phone which is 10 

### not the story today. I have all the 11 applicable numbers for for the Salt Lake 12 City tower, operations. I have Mr. Losee's 13 

### phone number. I have those numbers now. 14 Q 

### How about 911, 

### could you call them 15 and say, Could somebody contact the airport 16 because I don't know how, they've got an 17 airplane that's about to leave in a hazardous 18 condition? 19 A 

### I didn't think of 911. 20 Q 

### After this aircraft departed this 21 spot, where did it go next? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're saying this NEAL

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### 1 spot. Which

-- 2 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Spot 23. Taxied 3 onto the taxiway? 4 A 

### Taxied straight, made a left on 5 the taxiway, taxied down to the end of the 6 runway. 7 Q 

### There are two taxiways here. You 8 could have followed this aircraft down an 9 adjoining taxiway-- parallel taxiway, gotten 10 ahead of it and stopped it. 11 A 

### No. The service road from my car, 12 it stops where my X in the No. 2 is. That's 13 as far as I can drive without being in 14 

### communication with with air traffic 15 control. 16 Q 

### So it's safer to let that airplane 17 go than to stop it, run out there with your 18 car and cut it off? 19 A 

### Being a 

### pilot myself, 2

### o understanding the complexity of airports and 21 air traffic, I knew that I didn't have the 22 full picture of the operational environment, NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 1/1/WW.nealrgross.com147 

### 1 other planes corning in and exiting the runway 2 after landing and so forth. I felt that 3 

### driving my car unannounced on an active 4 

### taxiwayor runway or parallel taxiwaycouldbe 5 

### a hazard. 6 Q 

### It was a clear day. Situational 7 

### awareness, you don't believe you could have 8 

### safely driven your car down in

-- there's no 9 

### other aircraft. We didn't get to that, but 10 

### that airplane immediatelytaxiedand took off. 11 

### It's not waiting in line. Isn't that right, 12 

### Mr. Perkins? 13 A 

### That's correct. 14 Q 

### That's an empty taxiway. You 15 thought you were going to encounter an 16 

### airplane or couldn't avoid one? These are 17 

### large objects. It was still unsafe to drive 18 down an empty taxiway and get ahead of that 19 airplane and say, Whoa, whoa? 20 A 

### I think you're understating the 21 complexityof an internationalairport. Being 22 by yourself in a car, not in communication NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 148 1 with the tower, you don't understandwhere the 2 airplanesare. The airplanes couldbe landing 3 

### and exiting the runway. 4 Q 

### Well 5 A 

### To drive unannounced 6 Q 

### no, that aircraft departed to 7 

### the north. 8 A 

### Yeah. So

-- 9 Q 

### And

-- and the taxiway is going 10 all the way down to three four left. Do you 11 think that airplane is going to come and land 12 

### at the south and exit and you're going to 13 

### encounter it there? 14 A 

### No, an airplane landing on three 15 

### four left and exiting. 16 Q 

### Right. And I don't want you on 17 

### the runway. My question is: Why didn't you 18 use the taxiways where all flow is headed 19 south? 20 A 

### When airplanes land they use 21 

### taxiways to exit the runway. 22 Q 

### Right. And so do you believe that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com149

1 

### there's a taxiway that they would-- airplane 2 

### would enter short of the airport? You're 3 telling me an airplane could land and hit a 4 

### taxiwayand then taxi up this way? That's been 5 

### your experience at Salt Lake? 6 A 

### Typically they're exiting farther 7 

### down the field, that's true. 8 Q 

### You didn't think that frost was 9 

### still there, did you, Mr. Perkins, not at 10 

### takeoff? Isn't that true? 11 A 

### That's not true. I 

### I would 12 

### really have no way of knowing that. What I do 13 

### know is that the temperature-- it was still 14 

### cold. It was a super cold morning that day. 15 

### So for that frost to sublimate and go away 16 

### just because, I didn't believe that. 17 Q 

### You're five days off of the 18 

### completion of your training. You're alone in 19 

### this car. You didn't know what to do, did 20 

### you? 21 A 

### The training at the FAA is is 22 

### good. I did know what to do. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 150

1 Q 

### Who was your boss at the time? 2 A 

### Jason Crane. 3 Q 

### Jason Crane in the courtroom 4 today? 5 A 

### Yes, he is. 6 Q 

### Mr. Crane testified in the 7 de-icingcase that Judge Goodwinheard several 8 

### years ago. He testified if he believed an 9 airplane had any contaminate on its wings he 10 would move his car in front of that airplane 11 to stop it. 12 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 13 Honor. Relevancy. 14 

### MR. EMERSON: Well, let me finish 15 the question. 16 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) He testifiedthat 17 he wouldmove his airplane

-- I mean, move his 18 car in front of that airplane to stop it. He 19 was your boss at that time. Did you receive 20 that training from him, to stop an aircraft 21 with your car if you believed there was 22 contaminate on the wings? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 INW'N.nealrgross.com151 1 A No. 2 Q Do you believe that Mr. Crane's 3 instructions or belief that he should stop an 4 airplane with contaminate on its wings is an 5 unsafe practice? 6 A I think it varies by the 7 situation. Each situation is different. And 8 Mr. Crane did not do my de-ice training. That 9 wasn't his function as my supervisor. 10 Q But he was your supervisor at the 11 time. Is that right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So when you were done with this 14 element performance inspection, you would go 15 turn it into Mr. Crane and talk about the 16 actions that you took. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was he concerned that you didn't 19 stop the aircraft? 20 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 21 Honor. That calls for deliberative process. 22 It's privileged. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WW'W.nealrgross.com

### 152

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That's beyond the 2 scope of the case. I don't think the actions 3 of a supervisor I understand where you're 4 trying to go on cross, Counsel. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: Well, I don't think 6 it's deliberative process, but Your Honor is 7 saying it's beyond the scope. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it doesn't 9 

### help me get to the issue. The issue is 10 whether there's a violation and what 11 

### training from the supervisor you could 12 argue that in an administrative proceeding 13 it's relevant, but it's beyond so it's not 14 helping me get to the issue. 15 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, the 16 only way you let that airplane go is if you 17 really don't believe that frost is on the 18 wings. Isn't that true? 19 A Can you say that again, please? 20 Q 

### The only way you let that airplane 21 depart, short of using all of the resources 22 that we've just documented in good NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com153 1 conscience the only way you can let that 2 airplane go is if you had believed that frost 3 has sublimated. There are 44 souls on board. 4 You can't possibly believe there's frost on 5 those wings and let that airplane depart. 6 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 7 Honor. This is just argumentative. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. It's 9 cross. 10 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead and 11 answer. 12 A No, I had deep, deep concern. I 13 still do to this day thinking about the events 14 of

-- of what transpired. I was extremely 15 relievedwhen I watchedthe airplane climb out 16 safely. It's a position I never want to be in 17 or witness again in my life. I told you 18 several minutes ago that there was no way for 19 me to know if the frost sublimatedduring that 20 taxi. I don't know. 21 Q In fact you don't have any 22 evidence after 7:48 in the morning whether NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWIN.nealrgross.com

### 154

1 

### there's frost on those wings. The airplane 2 

### departed at 8:08. Is that correct? 3 A 

### That's correct. 4 Q 

### So you've got 20 full minutes, a 5 gap, of knowing whether or not that frost was 6 

### still there. Is that right? 7 A 

### That's right. 8 Q 

### Did you attempt to obtain other 9 evidence of the presence of frost on the wings 10 other than what you've presented here today? 11 A 

### No. 12 Q 

### Did you attempt to get a videotape 13 from Salt Lake International Airport? 14 A 

### Later after the interview of the 15 first officer, my office wanted to see if his 16 statement was accurate if he did a preflight 17 inspection, so we went over and looked at the 18 tape to see if we could verify that or not. 19 Q 

### Could you? 20 A 

### No. The video that the airport 21 had was inconclusive. 22 Q 

### Later that day you interviewedthe NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com155

1 

### flight crew. Is that correct? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### Captain Thomas Gibbs? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### What questions did you ask him? 6 A 

### We

-- the three inspectors, myself 7 included and the flight crew -- met in the s back of the airplane. 9 Q 

### Would you name the three 10 inspectors, please? 11 A 

### Douglas Stow and Benjamin Blauer 12 13 Q 

### Okay. 14 A 

### and myself. 15 

### We met in the back of the 16 

### airplane. It was kind of an open forum 17 roundtabletype talk. We introducedourselves 18 and explained I'd had some concern about the 19 flight that they

-- they took earlier in the 20 

### day. Shared what we had seen, and each of 21 them separately provided some information. 22 Q 

### Did you show them the photograph NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 156 1 on your telephone? 2 A 

### I did. 3 Q 

### As it pertained to Mr. Gibbs, do 4 you know whether or not he performed the 5 walk-around? That's Captain Gibbs. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Did 7 you say walk-around? 8 

### MR. EMERSON: Yes, the preflight 9 walk-around. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I 

### have a 

### 11 disability, hearing disability, every once in 12 a while just so you know. 13 A 

### Captain Gibbs indicated that his 14 first officer had performed the walk-around. 15 Q 

### So he remained in the cockpit? 16 A 

### I don't know where the captain 17 would be. We didn't get to that 18 Q 

### He didn't tell you? 19 A to that detail. 20 Q 

### Did he tell you that he saw his 21 first officer leave the cockpit to perform a 22 preflight walk-around? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com157

1 A 

### From my interview statement, what 2 I have written down is that the captain told 3 

### me that his first officerdid the walk-around. 4 So that's

-- that's as far as I could say. 5 Q 

### Would it be typical for the 6 

### captain to verify that with the first officer 7 

### when he returns, that he performed the 8 

### preflight walk-around? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### And that there was nothing amiss? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### And if they needed de-icing, the 13 

### first officer would report that to the 14 

### captain? 15 A 

### That's correct. 16 Q 

### Did Mr. Gibbs tell you that his 17 

### first officer reported frost on the wings? 18 A 

### No. 19 Q 

### Did he tell you that Mr.

-- that 20 the first officer departed the second time 21 

### from the cockpit? 22 A 

### No. I don't recall that. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 158

1 Q 

### Did you find Captain Gibbs's 2 testimony to you to be credible? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### You then interviewed the first 5 officer, Dennis Burr? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### Did you show him the photographs 8 

### on your phone? 9 A 

### I don't remember if the first 10 

### officer saw my phone or not. I only clearly 11 recall showing it to the captain. 12 Q 

### Did you ask him if he performed 13 the preflight walk-around? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### What was his response? 16 A 

### He said that he had done the 17 preflight walk-around. 18 Q 

### Did you ask him if he performed a 19 tactile test of the surfaces of the aircraft? 20 A 

### I asked him that and he said that 21 

### he did. 22 Q 

### The leading edge, did he confirm NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 159 1 he touched the leading edge? 2 A 

### He said he touched the leading 3 

### edge and the flaps. 4 Q 

### How about the areas in the 5 

### photographwhere frost is represented, did you 6 ask him if he touched those areas? 7 A 

### He

-- he want -- he wanted to see 8 

### it for himself, the areas, so I went out there 9 

### to the right wing and showed him. I don't 10 recall asking him pointblank if he touched 11 that area. But I do know that when I showed 12 

### him the area he didn't say either way if he 13 had

-- had touched that area or not. 14 Q 

### So he could have but didn't say. 15 You didn't ask him did you touch this area? 16 A 

### He didn't say. 17 Q 

### And you didn't ask. 18 A 

### Right. 19 Q 

### Did you find Dennis Burr's 20 statement to be credible? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### Do you believe that he performed a NEAL

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### 1 preflight walk-around? 2 A I 

### believe he did. 3 Q 

### Do you believe that he performed 4 

### the tactile test? 5 A I 

### believe he

-- he did, yes. 6 Q 

### So is it your belief the frost 7 

### formed sometime after the flight crewhad done 8 

### their walk-arounds and released the first 9 

### officer? 10 A 

### That's my opinion. 11 Q 

### Did you also interview Dan 12 

### Anderson? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Who was he? 15 A 

### Dan Anderson was a a company 16 

### pilot on the airplane on that flight. 17 Q 

### He was a passenger? 18 A 

### He was a passenger on the flight, 19 

### yes. 20 Q 

### Why did you talk to him? 21 A 

### He submitteda report to the chief 22 

### pilot, Shane Losee, stating that he he NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 161 1 didn't see frost on the wings. 2 Q 

### So you interviewed him about that 3 statement? 4 A 

### Excuse me. 5 

### Yes. We called him and asked him 6 

### several questions about his experience. 7 Q 

### Do you know about what time Mr. 8 

### Anderson entered the aircraft? 9 A 

### He said he he boarded 20 10 

### minutes before pushback which would be about 11 7:31 a.m. 12 Q 

### And do you know what seat he was 13 in? 14 A 

### He said he was sitting in 6A. 15 Q 

### Are you able to view the wings 16 from the window on 6A? 17 A 

### You can see a part of the wing, 18 yes. 19 Q 

### Could you see the part of the wing 20 represented in these photographs that have 21 frost on the wings? 22 A 

### Sure. You could see it from that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com162

1 that seat. 2 Q Did he report to you that he saw 3 frost on the wings? A 4 He said he did not see frost on 5 the wings. 6 Q Did you believe him when he told 7 you that? 8 A I believe that

-- his statement to 9 be true. 10 Q So the violation that we have, Mr. 11 Perkins, was it that theypushedback from the 12 gate with frost on the wings? Is that a 13 violation? 14 A No. Airplanes push back all the 15 time with frost on their wings. That's not a 16 violation. 17 Q Was it a violation not to turn 18 right and head to the de-icing paths 9 or 10? 19 A That's not a violation. 20 Q The violation doesn't occur until 21 that airplane lifts off the ground. Is that 22 right? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com163

1 A 

### The 121 violation, that's 2 accurate, yes. 3 

### Q Were there other violations that 4 

### happened prior to the aircraft taking off? 5 A 

### The regulations say that the 6 

### carrier must comply with their ops specs. 7 119.5 says that. 8 Q 

### At what point do you believe 9 

### SkyWest did not comply with its ops specs? 10 A 

### When they did not de-ice the 11 

### airplane. Their manual says that if if 12 

### there's contaminationon the wings, then they 13 

### should be de-iced. That did not happen. 14 Q 

### Well, that aircraft could have 15 

### taxied to the end of the runway and turned 16 

### around and come back and gotten de-iced and 17 

### not been in violation? 18 A 

### Absolutely. 19 Q 

### So the moment the violation occurs 20 

### is when the airplane leaves the ground with 21 

### frost on its wlngs. Is that correct? 22 A 

### Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nea!rgross.com164

1 Q Otherwise you believe that the 2 flight crew compliedwith the de-icingprogram 3 in SkyWest's operations specifications. 4 A The flight crew, yes. 5 Q So are there any other violations 6 that occur prior to that aircraft taking off 7 the ground? 8 A No. 9 MR. EMERSON: Nothing further, 10 Your Honor. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. It 1s -- Mr. 12 Spitzer, you're entitled to redirect. I'm 13 going to suggest that because it's after 12:00 14 that we defer redirect until we return from 15 lunch. 16 I'm going to instruct the witness 17 not to discuss your testimony with 18 whatsoever with anyone including Counsel, and 19 ask you to be back sometime between 1:30 and 20 a quarter to, the bench, and then Mr. Spitzer 21 will have the opportunity to -- it's going to 22 take about an hour for lunch. Between 1:15 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 165

1 

### 1:15 and 1:30. And then once everybody is 2 back in courtroom, whether it's 1:15 or 1:30, 3 we'll go back on the record. 4 

### MR. SPITZER: We'll aim for 1:15, 5 Your Honor. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 7 

### MR. SPITZER: We'll aim for 1:15, 8 Your Honor. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 10 

### So, sir, you're excused with that 11 admonitionnot to discuss your testimonywith 12 anybody. 13 

### We'll go off the record. We will 14 resume at approximately 1:15. We're off the 15 record. 16 (A break was taken from 12:11 to 17 1:25.) 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 19 record. Remind the witnessyou're still under 20 oath. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 166

1 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 2 

### Honor. Your Honor, I 

### just have a few questions 3 for this witness. 4 

### REDIRECT EXAMINATION 5 

### BY MR. SPITZER: 6 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, you testified 7 

### duringthe cross-examinationaboutExhibitNo. 8 6. 

### Would you mind turning to that exhibit? 9 A 

### Okay. 10 Q 

### And just as a formality, Your 11 Honor, Inspector Perkins, have you talked to 12 

### anybody about your testimony today during the 13 

### recess that we had for the last hour and a 14 

### half? 15 A 

### No. 16 Q 

### Now, turning to Exhibit 6, could 17 you explain for the Court what it means when 18 the aircraft is identified as push/movement? 19 This is on page No. 3. 20 A 

### To my knowledge, the the 21 

### push/movement is generated by moving of the 22 

### wheel, which is an input for the ACARS system NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 1/1/WW.nea!rgross.com167

1 to record the time. 2 Q You also testified that the brake 3 set -- that that indicatedthat the pilots had 4 applied the aircraft's parking brake and that 5 six minutes had elapsed between the record of 6 push/movement and the brake set. Do you have 7 any explanation for what the aircraft was 8 doing during that period? 9 A Yeah. So a typical pushback 10 procedure entails the ground crew using a tug 11 or a pushback cart, moving the airplane 12 rearward, typically at a fairly slow speed, 13 out to a predetermine:i location, that the 14 length of pushback can vary by the position of 15 the gates. Sometimes the pushback is quite 16 far. Sometimes it's close. Sometimes the 17 location of the pushback is dictated by air 18 traffic or ground control that's controlling 19 the ramp. So during this six minutes all of 20 that was taking place. 21 Q Is it customary for the aircraft 22 to be moving for the entire duration of the

-- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com168 1 of the push/movement record and the brake set 2 record? 3 A I guess you could survey all the 4 pushes out there on a given day, and I think 5 the majorityof the pushes would be they start 6 moving for a period of time, then they stop at 7 the end of the pushback where the the 8 ground personnel will ask them to set the 9 brake. There's other instanceswhere they may 10 have to stop for whatever reason and start 11 again so... 12 Q Is it possible for the aircraft 13 while it's being pushed back under power of 14 the tug to come to a stop without applying its 15 own brakes? 16 A Say that again, please. 17 Q Is it possible that the aircraft 18 could come to a stop during the pushback 19 maneuver without the aircraft using its 20 aircraft brakes? 21 A That's the common practice. The 22 the crew isn't-- is not using their-- the NEAL R. GROSS (202} 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com169

1 foot pedal brakes during pushback. The speed 2 and the push is controlledby

-- by the ground 3 tug. 4 Q During your cross-examinationyou 5 testified that the indication "brake set" 6 meant that the push back had completed. How 7 do you know that? 8 A That's the next logical sequence 9 of a pushback procedure. Just having been a 10 captain and having done this many times, 11 they'll release the brakes, start the push. 12 When the push is complete, the ground 13 personnel will ask the captain to set the 14 brakes. 15 Q And do the ground personnel ask 16 the captain to set the brakes prior to 17 removing the towbar? 18 A That's

-- that's the order. The 19 brakes are set first, and then the ground crew 20 goes about disconnecting the towbar. 21 Q Now, duringyour cross-examination 22 testimony you stated that you believed that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 VNVW.nealrgross.com170 1 the aircraft had been in direct sunlight for 2 16 minutes. Is that correct? 3 A So the assumption that the 16 4 minutes if they started their pushback at 5 1452 Zulu, or 7:52 local, from that point they 6 would be clear of the building that was asked 7 in that question. So from 7:52 to 8:08, 16 8 minutes. 9 Q So if the

-- if the aircraft had 10 been pushed back from the gate a tiny bit and 11 then stopped, do you recall or is it possible 12 that the aircraft was stopped in an area that 13 wasn't in direct sunlight? 14 A I don't recall. I couldn't say 15 either way if that

-- if that happened during 16 pushback. 17 Q Is it your testimony that the 18 aircraft at its gate was in direct shade? 19 A Based on the

-- the photo that was 20 provided by Mr. Emerson, yes, I believe that 21

-- looking at the size of the building and 22 and where the airplane would be parked, I NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nea!rgross.com171 

### 1 believe that's an accurate answer. 2 Q 

### So is it fair to say that the 16 3 

### minutes that you -- that you identifiedas the 4 

### aircraft being in direct sunlight represents 5 

### an absolute maximum amount of time that the 6 

### aircraftwas sittingin direct sunlightbefore 7 

### it took off? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Inspector Perkins, you were asked 10 questions about the aircraft's solar heating 11 

### during the taxi time. Is there anything in 12 SkyWest's de-icingprogram that envisions the 13 aircraft being heated by solar heat and 14 de-iced that way? 15 A No. 16 Q 

### Does the SkyWest de-icingprogram, 17 to your understanding, leave any room for 18 anythingotherthan de-icingonce the frost or 19 other frozen contamination is discovered on 20 the wing prior to takeoff? 21 A No. 

### Rob, actually I'd like to 22 correct that. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com172

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: There's no 2 question pending. 3 THE WITNESS: Sorry? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: There's no 5 question pending. 6 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, I 7 understand that you want to make a correction 8 to your previous answer. Could you explain to 9 the Court what your correction is? 10 A Yes. There are other methods 11 outlined in their manual for de-icing. I'm 12 not sure if I have it here with me, but

-- 13 okay. Mechanical removal is one way. Like a 14 forced air de-ice system is contained in the 15 ground de-ice program. That's another method 16 that they could have used that's approved 17 besides de-ice fluid. 18 Q So besides mechanical removal, 19 forced air removal, and applying de-ice fluid 20 to the wings, is there any other way for 21 SkyWest to take off an aircraft after frost 22 has been identified on a wing without NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com173

1 conducting one of those three methods? 2 A No. 3 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, no 4 further questions for this witness. 

### 5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. EMERSON: 7 Q Can't the flight crew wait for the 8 frost to naturally sublimate and then take off 9 the aircraft and be in compliance with the 10 de-icing program? 11 A I'm sorry. The first part of your 12 question? 13 Q Couldn't a flight crew, this one 14 or any other, wait for the frost to naturally 15 sublimate before taking off and still be 16 within compliance of the de-icing program? 17 A I suppose that would be an option. 18 I don't think that is spelled out as clearly 19 as you put it in the de-icing manual. 20 Q Do you believe it would be a 21 violationif they noticed frost on their wings 22 and didn't have de-icing available to go park NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 174 1 the airplane in the sunlight, wait for the 2 frost to disappear, and then take that 3 

### aircraft off? Would that violate the de-icing 4 

### program? 5 A 

### No, because their preflight 6 

### inspection wouldn't wouldn't they 7 

### wouldn't see frost on the wings or 8 

### contamination. So, no, thatwouldn'tviolate 9 

### it. 10 Q 

### So allowing the sun to obliterate 11 the frost is one acceptable way to clear the 12 

### wings? 13 A 

### If it was planned and they were to 14 do a to comply with the rest of the 15 program, including the preflight inspection, 16 then under that situation, sure. 17 Q 

### I want to draw your attentionback 18 to this exhibit. 19 

### MR. EMERSON: Which I believe is 20 No. 2 in the book, Your Honor. 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) We have your 22 testimony that the airplane parked here at NEAL

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### 175

1 

### spot 23. The nose of the airplane would be 2 headed west, the tail east. Is that correct? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### And your testimony here today is 5 

### it's for two minutes, at your deposition six 6 

### minutes, but either way this airplane is 7 

### parked here for some amount of time. 8 A 

### Yes. 9 

### MR. SPITZER: I'm going to object 10 

### to this, Your Honor. This is outside the 11 scope of my redirect. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, your 13 

### redirect was actually outside the scope as 14 well. I'm going to allow limitedexploration. 15 Overruled. 16 

### MR. EMERSON: Mr. Spitzer was 17 talking about using sunshine to remove frost, 18 and that's where this question is headed. 19 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) So parked here, 20 headed north, tail west, those wings are 21 cambered. Is that correct? 22 A Yes. NEAL

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### 176

1 Q 

### That means they are tilted in a 2 in a direction they're tilted downward? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### In this case they would be tilted 5 more to the east? 6 A 

### That's correct. 7 Q 

### With the sun rising and sitting 8 

### there from two to six minutes, they would be 9 

### bathed in sunlight for two to six minutes at 10 

### a better angle than if they were flat wings. 11 Yes? 12 A 

### At a better angle than flat wings, 13 

### yes. 14 

### MR. EMERSON: No further 15 questions. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further 17 questions of this witness? 18 

### MR. SPITZER: Just one question, 19 Your Honor. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll allow one. 21 

### FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. SPITZER: NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 INWW.nealrgross.com177

1 Q 

### Inspector, opposing counsel has 2 just asked if the aircraft was sitting for two 3 to six minutes. Looking at Exhibit 6, can you 4 

### tell how long the aircraft was waiting at spot 5 23? 6 A 

### Well, they set the brake at 8:02 7 

### local time, 1502 

### Zulu. They released the 8 

### brake at 1504, 

### or 8:04 

### local. So I would say 9 

### two minutes waiting. 10 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Sir, you I 12 

### assume that there's no further use for this 13 

### witness at this time. Is that correct? 14 

### MR. SPITZER: Yes. That's 15 

### correct, Your Honor. We will release. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Sir, you're 17 

### excused. I'm going to instruct you not to 18 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 19 the conclusion of the hearing. You can leave 20 the courtroom. It's up to the FAA attorneys 21 

### whether you need to stay or not. You may step 22 down. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com

### 178

1 

### THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we don 1

### t 3 

### anticipate or the Agency will not call 4 

### Inspector Perkins again. We'd ask at this 5 point that he be released from the sequester 6 

### rules. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That's I'm 8 excusinghim from the court. Whetheryou need 9 him again is totally up to you. 10 

### MR. SPITZER: With your leave, 11 Your Honor, he will stay in the courtroom. 12 MR. EMERSON: That's, okay by me 13 if Mr. Perkins wishes to remain in the 14 courtroom. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, with the 16 understandingif he remains in the courtroom, 17 the Court will prohibit him from further 18 taking the stand. The Court doesn't

-- 19 

### MR. EMERSON: I'm sorry, Your 20 

### Honor. Did you say he may still take the 21 stand? 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: No, he may not. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 179

1 

### MR. EMERSON: No, I

-- if he wants 2 to stay in the courtroom, I want him barred 3 from further testimony. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that's what 5 

### I just said much more eloquently than you. 6 

### MR. EMERSON: I have an even worse 7 

### hearing problem than you. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I can tell. It's 9 

### all the pounding you get in court. Right? 10 

### Call your next witness, Mr. 11 Spitzer. 12 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 13 Honor. The Administrator calls Tom Bond. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 15 your right hand. 16 (Witness sworn.) 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 18 State your full name and spell your first and 19 last name. 20 

### THE WITNESS: Full name is Thomas 21 Hadley Bond. Last name is B-0-N-D. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nea!rgross.com

### 180

1 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you Your 2 Honor. 3 THOMAS H . BOND, 4 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified as follows: 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. SPITZER: 8 Q 

### Good afternoon, Mr. Bond. Could 9 you please state your current occupation? 10 A 

### I work for the FAA. I'm the chief 11 scientistand technical advisor

-- advisor for 12 flight environmental icing. 13 Q 

### And how long have you hold that

-- 14 held that position for? 15 A 

### I've held that position for seven 16 and a half years. 17 Q 

### Prior to working at the FAA what 18 was your occupation? 19 A 

### Prior to working at the FAA, in 20 regards to aviation I was an airframe and 21 power plant mechanic for a year and a half 22 after getting a certificate degree for two NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com181 1 years from the Williamsport Area Community 2 College in Pennsylvania. 3 Q After the

-- after you worked as 4 an A&P mechanic, did you obtain any other 5 education? 6 A I went back to school at Penn 7 State University and got a degree in 8 mechanical engineering, and I went to work for 9 NASA in 1983. 10 Q What were your job 11 responsibilities when you started working at 12 NASA in 1983? 13 A In 1983 I started out working on 14 intermittent combustion engines for three 15 years until the program was cancelled. At 16 that point in 1986 until 2007 I worked in 17 aircraft icing, and during that periodof time 18 I had multiple jobs and responsibilities and 19 eventuallybecame the branch chief of the area 20 of the work area for the last 10 years of 21 my duration at -- at NASA. 22 Q While you were employed at NASA on NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com182 1 icing issues, what type of projects were you 2 engaged in? 3 A When I first started out in the

-- 4 in the icing branch, I worked as a flight test 5 engineer for approximatelythree years flying 6 the NASA research aircraft

-- flying in the 7 back of the NASA research aircraft. It was a 8 Twin Otter. 9 And during that period of time I 10 eventually transitioned to working in a 11 what's called a close icing wind tunnel. That 12 wind tunnel is an aircraft icing wind tunnel 13 owned by the United States government. It's 14 called the icing research tunnel and it's

-- 15 we use it to test different kinds of work: The 16 development for invalidationof computational 17 tools, experimental methods for aircraft 18 icing, improvements in ice protection and 19 detection technologies. 20 We did support for the NTSB for a 21 number of accident investigations, 22 microphysics studies in the tunnel to develop NEAL R. GROSS (202} 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 183

1 

### capabilities to improve computer codes. And 2 we workedwith aerospace industryaircraft and 3 

### engine manufacturers to develop new 4 capabilities and new technologies. 5 Q 

### After you were employed in that 6 function at NASA, did you -- did you change 7 positions at all? 8 A 

### I changed positions, but I stayed 9 in the icing branch for the rest of my 10 

### duration at NASA. So during that period of 11 time, after I worked in the tunnel for about 12 six or seven years, my principal jobs became 13 a project engineer, and I managed research 14 projects with the United States Air Force, 15 with U.S. Army, with other federal agencies, 16 and with

-- within the NASA project system. 17 So we would work on improvements in general 18 aviation, improvements to any other new 19 technologies including support for accident 20 investigations including the ATR-72 Roselawn 21 crash in 1994. 22 Q 

### You mentioned that you had worked NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WW"W.nealrgross.com184 1 at the FAA

-- or you currently are working at 2 the FAA. What do your responsibility 3 withdrawn. 4 What do your responsibilities at 5 the FAA consist of? 6 A Can I add something from NASA 7 because it directly-- directlyrelates to the 8 FAA responsibilities? 9 Q If that will help you explain your 10 FAA 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just answer the 12 question. 13 A Okay. My responsibilities in 14 within the FAA are directly related to 15 supportingaircraftcertificationservices and 16 flight standard services in regards to 17 continuingoperational safety. I oversee all 18 the research for the organization and direct 19 it through the FAA tech center, which is the 20 implementer of the research programs. I'm 21 responsible for the developmentof closeout of 22 the 1997 aircraft icing plan and the NEALR. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com185 1 generation of the 2012 new aircraft icing 2 plan, the directionsfor strategicinitiatives 3 for new technology and its application. 4 I worked on rulemaking processes 5 for new icing regulations from the time I 6 entered till the completion of the proposed 7 rulemaking. I followed up with evaluations 8 and contact with the NTSB in regards to what 9 that rule

-- some of the conditions were for 10 the atmospheric conditions. And in the last 11 two to three years I've spent a good portion 12 of my time working on ice crystal icing 13 conditions associated with engine damage and 14 air data. 15 Q Have you had chance in your career 16 to observe the formation and subsequent 17 melting or sublimation of frost on an 18 aircraft's wing? 19 A My

-- my general experience for 20 that is mostly through ice and wind tunnel 21 testing where we would test in a tunnel. We'd 22 collect ice on an airfoil, and there are NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com186

1 conditions where frost would develop. And 2 with those conditions we would go out -- once 3 you shut the tunnel down, go out and make 4 measurementsof the leadingedge ice, document 5 the

-- the nature of the ice structures. And 6 there are cases where the ice may stay on the 7 aircraft

-- the wing section for a long period 8 of time. 9 I 've had experience with frost 10 through testing with the National Research 11 Council Canada where we have a partnership 12 between the FAA and Transport Canada Civil ' 13 Aviation for the development of new ground 14 de-icing methodologiffi for understanding 15 fluids' performance and the aerodynamic 16 effects associatedwith those fluids. That's 17 principally where I have my experience in 18 dealing with frost. 19 Q Have you had any occasion to study 20 or measure the effects of frost on the wing of 21 a Bombardier CRJ aircraft? 22 A For the last three years we've had NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com187 1 a project betweenTransport Canada and the FAA 2 where we contacted Bombardier and asked them 3 to work with us to develop a series of tests 4 in the NationalResearchCouncil Canada's open 5 icing wind tunnel with a CRJ equivalent 6 airfoil section. The reason we chose that is 7 becausebaseduponour aerodynamicperformance 8 testing we wanted to have a conservative 9 application for the length of performance and 10 the aerodynamic effects associated with it 11 with what we considered to be a sensitive 12 wing. 13 So the hard wing applications are 14 the ones that tend to have the greatest 15 sensitivity to roughness levels, to ice and 16 performance. And so we developedthis project 17 where Bombardier's chief aerodynamicist and 18 two of their aerodynamics engineers from the 19 groundde-icingactivities supportedus in the 20 development of a I'd call it a CRJ 21 equivalent. It's

-- the CRJ wing, as it is 22 with the case with most aircraft NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WIJI/W.nealrgross.com

### 188

1 

### manufacturers, is 

### a proprietary wing 2 associated with the company. 3 

### We asked them to work with us to 4 

### provide somethingin the same highperformance 5 

### nature as the CRJ wing so that we could have 6 

### a chance to do the testing of it. And we 7 

### built a full scale wing equivalent to an 8 outboard section of the CRJ200 and conducted 9 testing with both fluids in terms of their 10 performance on the wing through a rotation of 11 

### the aircraft equivalent. So you'd turn the 12 tunnel on, bring the cold air in, and rotate 13 the wing as you would ln an airplane 14 application. 15 

### And we did baseline testing with 16 that same airfoil to understand what the

-- 17 effects the aerodynamic performance is, and 18 then we put sandpaper roughness levels on the 19 wing and

-- on the leading edge only, on the 2

### o whole wing, and on the trailing edge and then 21 measured the performance differences 22 associated with that so we could have a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com189 1 baseline of what the sensitivity of the 2 aircraft is

-- or that wing section is it's 3 a 2D wing section the way it's put in the wind 4 tunnel

-- so we could have a baseline of what 5 the sensitivityof that wing is to those kind 6 of roughness levels. 7 Q Thank you. 8 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, at this 9 point I'd like to offer Mr. Bond as an expert 10 witness in the subject of aircraft icing and 11 specifically the effects of frost on an 12 aircraft's safety. 13 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I object 14 unless his testimony is limited to icing 15 conditions in flight, which he has clearly 16 established an expertise for. He is not 17 qualified to opine about the facts ln this 18 case where the frost apparentlywas formed in 19 the ground and not during inflight conditions. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want 21 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, if I

-- 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to voir NEAL

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### 190 1 dire, Mr. Emerson? 2 

### MR. EMERSON: Sure. 3 

### VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 4 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 5 Q 

### Mr. Bond, would you tell me again 6 what you studied at Penn State? 7 A 

### I studied mechanical engineering 8 at Penn State. 9 Q 

### You have a degree in mechanical 10 engineering from Penn State? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### You didn't study atmospheric 13 sciences? 14 A I 

### did not study atmospheric 15 sciences. 16 Q 

### How about meteorology, was that 17 part of your -- 18 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, your 19 Honor. He hasn't been proffered for any of 20 these issues. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, overrule. 22 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Meteorology? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 191 1 A 

### Okay. So can I answer? 2 Q 

### Yes. 3 A 

### Yes, I did not study meteorology. 4 Q 

### The experience that you talked 5 about

-- and it sounds impressive, but it goes 6 towards the formation of ice on airfoils, on 7 

### wing services apparently in flight. Is that 8 correct? 9 A 

### Based upon my experience over the 10 last seven and a half years, I've participated 11 in ground de-icing research from the start of 12 my tenure at the FAA, and I 've worked with the 13 resonategroundde-icingfocal who is from the 14 icing research-- or from-- I'm sorry, from 15 

### FAA technical center. And I've become 16 acclimated to ground de-icing conditionsboth 17 in terms of the research associated with the 18 formation of frost or contamination on -- on 19 the wing and fluids' performance and the 20 aerodynamics effects associated with that. 21 Q 

### What was -- 22 A 

### I participatedin the Gl2 aircraft NEAL

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### 1 icing-- aircraft de-icing committee for that 2 same period of time. And I wrote and was the 3 

### principal author for the ground

-- the 2012 4 

### icing plan ground de-icing portion of that 5 

### plan. However, that was not associated with 6 

### atmospheric sciences. 7 Q 

### You

-- I'm sorry. Did you conduct 8 

### this research yourself? 9 A 

### I conducted the research with my 10 

### colleagues so I was a part of that

-- of that 11 

### research. 12 Q 

### And what ground icing conditions 13 

### did this research study? 14 A 

### I'm not sure what you're asking 15 

### me. 16 Q 

### You said you researched ground 17 

### icing conditions. 18 A 

### We simulate ground icing 19 

### conditions associatedwith the impact of both 20 

### the fluids and the-- either it's ice pelts, 21 

### snow, or some other mixed conditions 22 associatedwith what happens to the fluids in NEAL

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### 193 1 terms of theirperformanceassociatedwith how 2 long the holdover times can last with that. 3 Q 

### I'm sorry. When you say fluids, 4 you're talking 5 A 

### Ground de-icing fluid so it's both 6 de-icing and

-- 7 Q 

### Gylcol, that sort of thing? 8 A 

### Gylcol type II and type IV, those 9 

### those particular conditions. And then I 10 participated in the testing where we put the 11

-- we put simulatedroughnesseson, consistent 12 with the levels of frost from experience from 13 ground testing and from what has been done 14 operationally over the years. 15 Q 

### You simulated simulate that 16 frost on the ground in a flight simulation. 17 Is that right? 18 A 

### It's put on the aircraft

-- I'm 19 sorry. It's put on the wing, and then it's 20 run through a rotation. So it's from liftoff 21

-- it's from high speed taxi to liftoff, but 22 it's not inflight. It's not considered NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com194

1 inflight because inflight would be 2 significantly different than what the 3 testing that we did. 4 Q Did your research go to the 5 natural sublimation of frost

-- 6 A No. 7 Q -- for

-- no? 8 A No. 9 MR. EMERSON: That 1s all, Your 10 Honor. 11 I renew my objection. 12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, if

-- 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: The objection 1s 14 going to be overruled. It goes to the weight 15 of his testimony, Mr. Emerson. So your 16 objection is noted. 17 Your proffer as an expert was in 18 what field? 19 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the 20 proffer is in the field of aviation icing and 21 its effects on aircraft safety. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I 1m not sure NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 INWW.nealrgross.com

### 195 1 that I heard credentials that would rise to 2 that level, but I'm still going to overrule 3 

### the objectionthat it does go to the weight of 4 

### his testimony. 5 

### And I 

### will take that into 6 consideration, Mr. Emerson. 7 

### Go ahead. You can proceed. 8 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 9 Honor. 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 11 BY MR. SPITZER: 12 Q 

### Mr. Bond, have you reviewed files 13 and heard testimony in the case that we're 14 here talking about today? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### And what documents have you 17 reviewed? 18 A 

### I reviewed the the documents 19 you sent me. I don't know what their file 20 names are associated with the submission of 21 the

-- the case information. So I've reviewed 22 the the testimony or reviewed the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 196

1 

### submissions of by Mr. Perkins, the 2 background information about the the 3 atmospheric conditions, the Kevin Perry 4 document, and the information about the ops 5 specs and the rest of the details that were 6 discussedearliertodayregardingthepushback 7 from the

-- release from the aircraft and the 8 including the pictures of the frost. 9 Q 

### And have you been present in the 10 courtroomfor the testimonyof

-- of Inspector 11 Perkins? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### Mr. Bond, in reviewing the

-- the 14 information currently in the record in this 15 case, did you come to a conclusion about 16 whetheror not aviation safetywas compromised 17 

### by this operation? 18 

### A Yes, I did. 19 Q 

### And what was the conclusion that 20 

### you carne to? 21 

### A My conclusion 22 MR. EMERSON: Objection. Can we NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com

### 197 1 have some foundation before we get to the 2 conclusion? 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 4 

### MR. SPITZER: We'll get to that. 5 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, having 6 

### looked at the

-- the informationthat has been 7 

### put into evidence in this case, could you say 8 

### generally whether or not the conditions were 9 

### conducive to the formation of frost on the 10 

### aircraft's wings? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 MR. EMERSON: Objection. Vague. 13 At what point are we talking about? 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 15 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) At the time of 16 the subject flight and for the half hour 17 proceeding the departure of the subject 18 flight, in your review of the weather data 19 that was suppliedby Mr. Perkins and also the 20 weather data that was a component of the 21 expert report that was suppliedto this office 22 through discovery, did you come to a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 198 1 conclusion about whether conditions were 2 conducive for the formation of frost on an 3 aircraft's wings? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### And what was the conclusion? 6 A 

### Based upon the review of the 7 evidence, the Kevin Perry document, and the 8 atmospheric conditions associated with the 9 radiational cooling, I believe that there was 10 frost that could form on that wing during that 11 period of time. 12 

### MR. EMERSON: I'm sorry. I didn't 13 hear the

-- the end of your statement. 14 

### THE WITNESS: Just

-- where do you 15 want me to start? 16 

### MR. EMERSON: You said it was -- 17 I'm sorry. I just didn't hear the last seven 18 or eight words. It trailed off 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 

### MR. EMERSON:

-- could you repeat? 21 

### THE WITNESS: So, yeah. I said 22 based upon the evidence that was shown me -- NEAL R. GROSS (202} 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com199 1 the pictures of the wing, the Kevin Perry 2 explanation, the dewpoint and temperature of 3 the conditions there, and the fact that 4 radiational cooling could have taken place to 5 induce a lower temperature on the wing

-- I 6 believe that frost could form. 7 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, I'd 8 like to turn your attention to what has been 9 previouslymarked as Exhibit 3. It should be 10 in front of you. 11 MR. SPITZER: Permission to 12 approach, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 14 Q (By MR. SPITZER) I 1d like to 15 present the witness with what has been 16 previously marked as Administrator's 3 and 17 accepted into evidence. 18 A Oh, I'm sorry. I don't need this 19 then. Right? 20 Okay. 21 Q Now, Mr. Bond, having looked at 22 this picture and heard the testimony of Aaron NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com200

1 Perkins today, did you come to a conclusionon 2 whether or not this was frost that was on the 3 aircraft's wings? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what was the conclusion? 6 A My conclusion was that this is 7 frost on the aircraft wings. 8 Q Mr. Bond, from your experience as 9 a scientist for the FAA and NASA on the 10 subject of icing and frost, could this amount 11 of frost that was on the wings, if it was on 12 the wings at the time of takeoff, have 13 affected aviation safety? 14 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 15 Relevance. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Restate the 17 question. 18 MR. SPITZER: Certainly, Your 19 Honor. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: No, I'm just 21 asking you. 22 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, looking NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISlANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nea!rgross.com201 1 at the photograph marked as Exhibit 3 and 2 having heard the testimony of Inspector 3 Perkins and from your experience as a 4 scientist with NASA and the FAA, did you come 5 to a conclusionon whether the amount of frost 6 that is in this picture, if it existed at the 7 time of takeoff, could have posed a hazard to 8 aviation safety? 9 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 10 Relevance. 11 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, this is 12 why we're here. 13 MR. EMERSON: It doesn't go to 14 further whether there's a violation. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 16 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the 17 Administrator has alleged 91-13 which is 18 careless and reckless operation. This 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, what the 20 Administratorhas alleged are four violations 21 as set forth in the Complaint. 22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, one of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 202 1 those violations is careless or reckless 2 operation of which a central tenant is 3 operating in a manner that's detrimental to 4 

### aviation safety. This is 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Well, that's not 6 the question that you asked. 7 

### MR. SPITZER: I'll rephrase the 8 question. 9 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, having 10 looked at the

-- the evidence that's on record 11 in this case, did you come to the conclusion 12 as to whether aviation safetywas affectedby 13 this flight? 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Well, I'm not 15 going to allow him to answer that question 16 because that goes to the responsibilityof the 17 

### Court. If you'll rephrase the question

-- 18 because you -- the question you just answered 19 is based on the testimony and the evidence, 20 can he come to a conclusion on that, impinges 21 on -- if he answers that one way or another I 22 don't have anything to do, in other words. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com203 

### 1 Rephrase the question in terms of 2 the witness, whichthe questioncan't be based 3 on your review is there a violation because 4 

### that's for the Court to determine. He can 5 express an opinion relevant to a portion 6 there. 7 Do you want to take just a minute 8 to rethinkyour train of thought? I know I've 9 broken your train of thought. 10 

### MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Your precise 12 question went to the

-- the obligation of the 13 

### Court. That's it's a technical issue. 14 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, having 15 reviewed the evidence that you reviewed in 16 this matter, do you have an opinionon whether 17 aviation safety was compromised in this 18 flight? 19 

### MR. EMERSON: Same objection. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'll allow 21 that question because it's asking him whether 22 

### he has an opinion. So overrule that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 lfNIW.nealrgross.com

### 204 1 objection. 2 

### MR. EMERSON: It assumes that the 3 

### frost is present. We haven't laid any 4 foundation that the witness

-- 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: He did testifyhis 6 opinion based on the review of evidence that 7 he thought that there was frost on the wing. 8 

### MR. EMERSON: At departure 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That's 10 

### MR. EMERSON:

-- or at the gate? 11 In this photograph, yes, but at departure

-- 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's his 13 

### testimony is what his testimony is. His 14 testimony was based on the review of the 15 photograPh it was his opinion that there was 16 

### frost on the wing, period. So the question 17 that you objected to is did he have an 18 opinion. I'm going to overrule the objection 19 as to whether he had an opinion. 20 You sure you don't want to take a 21 break? 22 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I just NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 205

1 

### -- I fail to see what the issue is. I mean, 2 he's here as an expert witness. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. I 4 

### understand, but

-- I understand where you're 5 

### trying to go and I understandwhy Mr. Emerson 6 

### is doing what he's doing. But getting back to 7 

### where we began, you you misphrased the 8 

### questionthat you meant to ask by sayingbased 9 

### on your review of testimony is there a 10 

### violation which is really what the Court's 11 

### responsibility is. And this is my 12 ammunition there is consistent with what I'm 13 getting in other cases. Not saying that you're 14 

### foreclosed from pursuing this avenue. You 15 just need to take another path to get where 16 you want to go. 17 

### MR. SPITZER: Okay. Your Honor, 18 

### help me out here. I'm trying-- 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I can't do 20 that because we're not in law school. Just 21 let's do this. Let's take about a five-minute 22 break, give you a chance to collect your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 W'WIN.nea!rgross.com206 

### 1 thoughts. And we '11 come back and I '11 allow 2 you to begin exactly where you were. We're 3 just going to take a short break. All right? 4 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 5 Honor. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 7 instruct the witness you're not to discuss 8 your testimony with anybody during this short 9 recess. 10 (A break was taken from 2:05 to 11 2: 12 . ) 

### 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 13 record. 14 Mr. Spitzer? 15 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 16 Honor. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just a suggestion. 18 It might be helpful just to go back to the 19 beginning and walk into it. 20 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 21 Honor. 22 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, does NEAL R. GROSS (202}234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com207 

### 1 frost on a aircraft like the Bombardier CRJ 2 wing affect aviation safety? 3 

### THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to 4 

### answer? 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I haven't 6 

### heard an objection. So 7 

### THE WITNESS: Do I have to -- 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: As long as Mr. 9 Emerson doesn't say anything. 10 

### THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. 11 A 

### The answer is yes. 12 Q 

### Now, from your experience and

-- 13 and knowledge as an FAA scientist and NASA 14 scientist, what effect would frost on a CRJ

-- 15 Bombardier CRJ aircraft wing have? 16 A 

### The same effect that frost would 17 have on any aircraft wing, and that is that it 18 can have a handling qualities effect and 19 maneuverability of the aircraft. It can 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to 21 I've got a hearing disability so-- 22 

### THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com208

1 A I said the same effect that frost 2 would have on any aircraft wing; that is, that 3 it

-- it's contaminationof the wing, so that 4 contamination can cause a performance and 5 handling qualities change. So you could have 6 a decrement in speed. You could have a 7 handling qualities event depending on the 8 thickness and roughness of the ice, its 9 location, and the configuration of the 10 aircraft. 11 Q With respect to the you've 12 testified that the that any aircraft is 13 affected by frost on the wing. Are the 14 effects greater or lesser for the Bombardier 15 CRJ aircraft? 16 A The bombardier CRJ aircraft has a 17 higher degree of sensitivity as a single 18 element air air

-- airflow with a flapped 19 multiengine

-- or multielement airfoil that 20 you might see on a larger airplane. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just for the 22 Court's benefit, what do you mean by single NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WINW.nealrgross.com209 

### 1 element versus multielement? 2 

### THE WITNESS: The CRJ200 wing is 3 considered a hard wing, so there's no leading 4 edge device on that aircraft. So there's no 5 --there's no multielement that comes out and 6 gives it a higher degree of lift associated 7 with that. 8 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) What is a -- when 9 you say element that comes out of the wing, 10 

### what is that? 11 A 

### It can be a multiple set of 12 

### leading edge devices. So you could have 13 Krueger flap or leading edge slat, something 14 that separates from the leading edge

-- or 15 from the main element of the airfoil and 16 extends the camber of the wing. When that is 17 extended, it increases the lift capability. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Would the same be 19 true of the trailingedge? Obviouslyyou have 20 

### a flap of some sort. 21 

### THE WITNESS: Right. There are -- 22 

### there are aircraft with extended flap NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com210 1 capabilitiesin a multielement, and that would 2 also improve the lift capability of the wing 3 associated with it. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, again, can 5 the Court presume that this particulartype of 6 aircraft does not have

-- 7 THE WITNESS: It has a single 8 flap. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: So it has a single 10 flap, but that flap does not extend. Is that 11 correct? 12 THE WITNESS: The flap does extend 13 itself, but it doesn't extend itself in 14 multiple flap

-- 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS:

-- configuration. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 18 Sorry, Mr. Spitzer. 19 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 20 Honor. 21 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, if 22 there was frost that was formed on the aft NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 211 1 portion of the wing well behind the slat or 2 

### other extension device that would be on a 3 bigger aircraft, would that still have an 4 

### effect on aviation safety? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### And why is that? 7 A 

### The contamination doesn't have to 8 

### be on the leading edge of the wing. 9 Contaminationhas to be significant enough to 10 

### affect the aerodynamic performance and 11 handling qualities. So the frost could be 12 

### located farther back on the wing. There's 13 

### been data shown for this particular aircraft 14 that contamination typically represented in 15 dry air wind tunnel flight testingwith medium 16 or coarse sandpaper even in the

-- even in the 17 

### trailing edge region can affect the 18 

### performance and have a a decrement to the 19 

### to the speed and the ability of the 20 aircraft to sustain flight. 21 Q 

### When you say "the ability of the 22 aircraft to sustain flight," does that mean NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 212 1 the stall speed would be higher? 2 A 

### The stall speed could be higher. 3 

### I can't comment unless it's specific to a case 4 

### you evaluate in a-- in a test. But the stall 5 

### speed could be higher. The handling qualities 6 

### could be changed, and it would be dependent 7 

### upon the configuration. 8 

### I think the point I'm trying to 9 

### relate is that any frost contaminationon the 10 

### trailing edge has a potential aviation safety 11 problem associated with it. 12 Q 

### How about frost on the upper 13 

### portionof the wing, not on the trailingedge, 14 

### but on the aft portion of the wing? 15 

### MR. EMERSON: Objection. 16 Relevance? 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I 1

### m sorry. Repeat 18 the question. I'm just asking you to repeat 19 the same question that you asked. 20 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, would 21 frost that was on the aircraft wing on the 22 upper wing surface in the aft half of the wing NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 213 1 have an effect on aviation safety? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 4 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) And what would 5 the effect be? 6 A 

### Similar to what I described, but 7 it could be more significant because there's 8 more separation in airflow if the frost is 9 

### farther forward from the rear, farther 10 forward, if that's what you're askingme. So 11 the most sensitive frost you could have on a 12 wing like

-- hard wing like this would be on 13 the leading edge typically. But in all cases 14 the frost associatedwith different positions 15 on the wing can still have a significant 16 impact on aviation safety. 17 Q 

### When you say that the aircraft

-- 18 earlier you stated that the aircraft's 19 

### performance could be reduced. What do you 20 mean by that? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I didn't I 

### 22 didn't hear one of the words you used. Again, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 214 1 it's-- the problem I've got is when there's 2 any background noise, I literally can't hear 3 

### my wife across the table from me. So don't 4 take this as anything wrong that you're

-- 5 

### either one of you are saying. I just 6 literallycan't-- can't hear the word. What 7 was the word that you used? Becauseyour voice 8 dropped off and that's the word I didn't hear. 9 

### MR. SPITZER: I'll rephrase the 10 question, Your Honor. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Or we can always 12 cheat and go to Diane? 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Want to? 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don' t you 15 

### repeat the question? That way Mr. Spitzer 16 doesn't feel like I'm picking on him. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Okay. 18 

### (The record was read as follows: 19 

### "QUESTION: When you say that the 20 

### aircraft earlier you stated that the 21 aircraft'sperformancecouldbe reduced. What 22 do you mean by that?" NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 l/lf\NW.nealrgross.com215

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I missed 2 the word 11reduced. 11 3 THE WITNESS: So is that okay? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 A All right. What I'm talking about 6 specifically is both

-- you can have

-- when 7 I say the aircraftperformance can be reduced, 8 the airflow can be disrupteddue to the frost, 9 whether it's on the leading edge, the top 10 surface, or even on the aft section of the 11 airfoil. With that happening, you can have an 12 effect on the lift function dependingupon the 13 angle of the tack of the aircraft or of the 14 maneuvering capability. In either case it 15 could reduce your ability for the aircraft to 16 sustain lift. 17 Q Mr. Bond, we've talked a lot about 18 theoretical effects. Have there been any 19 accidents that were caused by frost on the 20 aircraft wings on bombardier CRJ? 21 A There's

-- there's two accidents 22 I'm familiar with associatedwith the CRJ200. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com216

1 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 2 Relevance. 3 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor

-- 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's not really 5 relevant, but the Court would like to hear it. 6 A There was an accident in 2004 and 7 a China EasternAirlines, I believe, is the 8 name of the airline operator in Mongolia 9 departi-ngto China. That accident, all of the 10 people on board died and two people on the 11 ground died. The particularsof that accident 12 were that the aircraft took off. It was a 13 morning takeoff. And the-- there was frost 14 on the wings associated with the radiation 15 cooling and hoarfrost. And it was presumedit 16 was on the leading edge also because of the 17 significance of the aerodynamics performance 18 effects, but the assumption is that there was 19 frost on the wing. 20 The airplane took off, and within 21 approximatelya kilometer, maybe a littleover 22 a kilometer, it lost flight. The pilot did NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 217

1 

### not understandwhat was happeningand couldn't 2 sustain flight. The plane crashed into the 3 ground. 4 

### The second one that I'm familiar 5 with is that CRJ200 had

-- another accident 6 took place in Armenia, and it was with an 7 airline operatorcalledBelavia. And that one 8 is a little different than this one, but it 9 also had frost on the wings, and it may have 10 

### been from cold-soaked fuel frost. It's not 11 clearthat theyunderstoodthe frost formation 12 mechanism. 13 

### That plane actually lifted off 14 from the runway, and within about 15 feet the 15

-- I can't remember. I think it was the left 16 wing tipped, hit the runway, and the aircraft 17 started rolling and crashed upside down. To 18 everyone'sgood fortune, some alertpassengers 19 managed to open the exit doors, and everyone 20 

### got out alive. So that was a little 21 different. 22 But both cases the

-- the accident NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 218

1 

### review authority of those both those 2 nations have looked at it along with support 3 

### from Bombardier. Their specialists made a 4 determination that they were both caused by 5 

### frost. 6 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, move to 7 

### strike. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, as 9 

### Counsel, to the objection, there is some 10 

### well, I'm going to overrule the objection. 11 

### Your objection goes to weight. It's it 12 goes to weight. It's not going to have

-- the 13 case is not going to turn on the particulars 14 of the two accidents, but I'm going to 15 overrule the objection. 16 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 17 Honor. 18 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, have 19 you had a chance to review various operators' 20 de-icingprograms in the course of your duties 21 as an -- as an FAA scientist? 22 A 

### Yes. NEAL

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### 219

1 Q 

### Were you able to review the 2 de-icing program for SkyWest in this in 3 this case? 4 A 

### I reviewed the document the 5 

### documents that had the informationassociated 6 

### with their-- their de-icing program, yes. 7 Q 

### And, Mr. Bond, are you aware of

-- 8 

### of a program or or a provision in the 9 

### program that would allow the aircraft to take 10 

### off after frost was discovered and the frost 11 had sublimated or melted off of the wings? 12 A 

### I'm not aware of anything that 13 

### would allow that. 14 Q 

### If

-- if the crew had performed-- 15 

### or in our hypothetical situation if the crew 16 

### were to perform a secondary preflight, would 17 

### that be that showed no ice on the wings, 18 

### would that be permissible? 19 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 20 Foundation. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: You really haven't 22

-- I'm going to sustain. You really haven't NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com220

1 

### set forth a hypothetical. The question is not 2 

### improper. It's just that you haven't 3 postulated a hypothetical. 4 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, ln a 5 

### hypothetical situation where an aircraft did 6 

### have frost on its wings, SkyWest aircraft had 7 

### frost on its wings, the aircraft was taxied 8 

### into the sunlight and the frost either melted 9 

### or sublimated, could SkyWest take that 10 

### aircraft off if the flight crew had conducted 11 

### a secondarypreflight check that had shown no 12 frost on the wings prior to takeoff? 13 

### MR. EMERSON: Objection. This 14 

### goes outside of the expert's authority, 15 

### expertise. And we haven't establishedif he's 16 

### reviewed the entire de-icing program or the 17 

### small sectionthat's beenprovidedtoday as an 18 

### exhibit. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 20 

### overrule the objection. 21 That means you can answer. 22 THE WITNESS : Oh, sorry. I'm NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com221 

### 1 sorry. 2 A 

### The answer -- my answer to that 3 

### would be that if there was a second preflight 4 

### that was done, the aircraftwould take off, if 5 

### there was no frost formation on the

-- 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Could 7 

### you repeat that? 8 A 

### If there was a second preflight 9 

### that was conducted and there was no frost on 10 

### the airplane, the airplane could take off. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 12 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, you've 13 

### testified earlier that you've had a chance to 14 

### observeboth frost formationand frost melting 15 

### and sublimation in experimental conditions. 16 

### Do you have an opinion as to whether this 17 

### aircraft, the subject aircraft in this case, 18 

### took off with frost on its wings? 19 

### MR. EMERSON: Objection. 20 Foundation. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 22 

### MR. SPITZER: Foundation as to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com222 1 knowledge, Your Honor, or foundation as to 2 what this individual has reviewed? 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: There 1s no 4 foundation he has any knowledge to answer the 5 question. 6 MR. SPITZER: YourHonor, I 1dlike 7 to make an offer of proof. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 9 MR. SPITZER: Inspector

-- or Mr. 10 Bond, has testified that he 1s observed frost 11 be formed on experimentalwing portions. He 1s 12 observed it also sublimate off and melt off in 13 an experimental circumstance. He has more 14 experienceprobablythan anybodyelse watching 15 frost melt and form. This question is merely 16 askingwhether he has an opinion on whether or 17 not the frost that was observedby Mr. Perkins 18 at 48 after 7:00 still existed on the aircraft 19 at -- at 8:08 when the aircraft took off. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what was the 21 question? 22 MR. SPITZER: The question is in NEAL

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### 223 1 in Mr. Bond's experience does he believe 2 that the aircraft took off with frost on its 3 wings after having reviewed the information 4 that Inspector Perkins obtained. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: Objection, Your 6 

### Honor. His experience generally does not 7 

### pertain here. Again, a great deal of 8 foundation is lacking as to the formation of 9 

### this particular alleged contamination: 10 Dewpoint, frost point, ambient temperature, 11 the amount of sunlight available. We are just 12 merely jumping to a conclusion with zero 13 foundation to support whatever it is he's 14 about to say. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 16 

### MR. SPITZER: All right. Your 17 Honor, I'm making an offer of proof at this 18 point. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I understandthat. 20 

### MR. SPITZER: So may I ask the 21 question? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: What

-- you just NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com224 1

-- I thought you just made the offer of proof. 2 MR. SPITZER: So the offer of 3 proof from the Administrator is that in Mr. 4 Bond's experience this aircraft did depart 5 with frost on the wings. That's it. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can answer -- 7 you can ask the question. 8 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, in your 9 experience and from your review of the file in 10 this case, do you have an opinion as to 11 whether this aircraft departed with frost on 12 its wings? 13 MR. EMERSON: Same objection. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 15 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, it's an 16 offer of proof. I want to get it on the 17 record so that on appeal I have this locked 18 up, so I'm just making an offer of proof. 19 That's all. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. And 21 your -- your question is in the record and my 22 -- my ruling is in record. So that's NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 225 1 that's where we are. 2 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, as 3 

### counsel for the Agency, I'm entitled to show 4 

### what would have been on the record if we 5 

### hadn't have gotten the objection or if the 6 

### objection was improperly ruled upon. That's 7 

### all I'll doing right here. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Where is 9 

### that in the rule? 10 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, it's in 11 13

-- 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you talking 13 

### about 14 CFR? 14 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 15 

### Thirteen CF

-- 14 

### CFR 13.225, 

### offer of proof. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. 17 

### Thirteen? Well, for purposes of 14 CFR 18 

### Section 13.225, 

### I will allow the the 19 witness to answer the question, but my ruling 20 still stands. 21 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 22 Honor. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 II'NNtf.nealrgross.com

### 226

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Why don't 2 you just make sure that this portion of the 3 record is clear? This portion of the record 4 should be noted that I'm allowing the FAA 5 counsel to present an offer of proof pursuant 6 to 14 

### CFR section 13.225. 

### 7 Having said that, Mr. Spitzer, do 8 you want to restate your question? 9 

### MR. SPITZER: Certainly, Your 10 Honor. 11 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, after 12 having reviewedthe evidence in this trial, do 13 you have an opinionas to whether the aircraft 14 departed at 8:08 with frost on his wings? 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm-- 16 

### MR. EMERSON: Same. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: going to allow 18 that. I'm going to allow him to answer that 19 he has an opinion. Okay? 20 

### So you can answer that. Do you 21 have an opinion, yes or no? 22 A 

### Yes. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWoN.nealrgross.com

### 227 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) And what is that 3 opinion? 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have an 5 

### objection, Mr. Emerson? 6 

### MR. EMERSON: Yes. Same 7 objections as to no foundation for this 8 opinion. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But for

-- 10 to make sure that the record's clear, I think 11 you should state what

-- in full the reasons 12 for your objection, and then I'm going to 13 allow him to answer the question. 14 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 15 Honor. 16 

### MR. EMERSON: So to repeat the 17 objections that I've already stated-- they 18 haven't changed. This witness has still not 19 laid out any foundation for the opinion he's 20 about to offer. Therefore, the evidence will 21 have zero or no weight and should be 22 disregarded. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 228 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I'm going 2 to sustain the objection, but I'm going to 3 allow the witness to answer the question. 4 

### So, Mr. Bond, would you answer the 5 

### question if

-- Mr. Spitzer could you restate 6 

### it? 7 A 

### Could you say the question again, 8 please? 9 Q 

### What is that opinion? 10 A 

### My opinion is that there would 11 have been frost on the airplane at takeoff. 12 Q 

### And what do you base that opinion 13 upon? 14 A 

### I base that opinion upon the 15 experience I've had in testing and the years 16 of research work that's been done and my 17 associated activities within the FAA and 18 ground de-icing working with the standard 19 

### staff the flights services flight 20 standard services staff focal in reviewing 21 issues associated with frost. 22 MR. SPITZER: Okay. Your Honor, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 229 1 that

-- 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Was that

-- I'm 3 

### sorry. Is that what you wanted to get in? 4 

### MR. SPITZER: That is, Your Honor. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So let's go 6 back to where we were. 7 

### MR. SPITZER: No further 8 

### questions, Your Honor. And that also 9 concludes our offer of proof. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What do you mean? 11 Okay. Never mind. 12 Cross? 13 

### MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So based on his 15 non-cross, I assume you have no direct based 16 on his non-cross, do you? 17 

### MR. SPITZER: No, Your Honor. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 19 

### Sir, I'm going to instruct you 20 that you remain under oath during the 21 continuationof the testimony. Becauseyou're 22 the Agency's expert witness you can return to NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com230 1 the table or you can be excused, whatever you 2 want. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, do 5 you have other witnesses? 6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we have 7 one additional witness, the one who's 8 availableonly via telephone. The bulk of his 9 testimony, though, is rebuttal testimony. 10 Everything that he's going to testify about 11 has not been put into the record yet. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that's 13 assumingMr. Emersonputs on a case. We can't 14 rebut if he didn't put a case on. 15 MR. SPITZER: Sorry, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: I say if Mr. 17 Emerson doesn't put a case on, you won't have 18 anything to rebut. 19 MR. SPITZER: Right. Precisely, 20 Your Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So the only 22 remaining witness you would have is a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 231 1 potential rebuttal witness if Mr. Emerson

-- 2 

### MR. SPITZER: That's correct, Your 3 

### Honor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The Court 5 normally doesn't have any objection, assuming 6 

### Counsel doesn't, about taking telephonic 7 

### testimony. The problem is that this isn't my 8 

### courtroom. And if we're going to do something 9 

### telephonically, I may have to have Ms. 10 

### Matthews set it up at a date subsequent to 11 today. I'm just throwing that out there. 12 MR. SPITZER: Okay. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: And let's cross 14 

### that bridge in and when we get to it. 15 MR. SPITZER: Certainly, Your 16 

### Honor. There may be no need to call that 17 

### witness. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. So you have 19 

### no further testimony in your case in chief? 20 

### MR. SPITZER: No further 21 testimony, Your Honor. I would request that 22 you take judicial notice of the 21.53(b). I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com232 

### 1 have copies of the relevant portions for you 2 and opposing counsel if you'd like that. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that the 4 penalty computation? 5 

### MR. SPITZER: Yes, that's correct, 6 Your Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, I

-- based 8

-- are you going to object or not? 9 

### MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Based on -- and 11 

### I'll tell you this. I told Mr. Morris this. 12 I normally

-- I will mark it as an exhibit. 13 I won't accept it into evidence. What I will 14 do is take judicial notice of it. What I do 15 is make sure that I review the regulations 16 which are ln force at the time of the 17 violation, whatever that is. So I will accept 18 that as -- we'll mark it as an exhibit, but 19 

### I'll take judicial notice of it. So if you 20 want to approach, that will be fine. 21 MR. EMERSON: I have one on my 22 desk. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 233

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I 

### actually 2 downloaded it on my iPad. 3 Let me just

-- I want to check one 4 

### thing before we --Mr. Spitzer, I don't show 5 

### an Exhibit 8. 

### I've got a blank spot. Is that 6 

### consistent with your notes? 7 

### MR. SPITZER: Stand by one second, 8 

### Your Honor. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Let me -- 10 

### why don't both of you get your exhibits and 11 

### let me go through what I have as exhibits. 12 

### MR. SPITZER: There should be no 13 

### Exhibit 8, 

### Your Honor. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I've got: 15 

### l is the air carrier certificate that's four 16 

### pages; Exhibit 2 

### is the operations 17 

### specificatims, that's 14 

### pages, that's 18 actually an excerpt; 3 is the photo of the 19 right wing; 4A is the schematic which is 20 unmarked; and 4B is the schematic which is 21 

### marked. I'm probablygoing to do a 4C just to 22 be consistent, which would be a digital NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 234 1 photograph of the display up here. 2 Mr. Spitzer, 5 is a certified copy 3 of the weather data from December 7, 2011 4 through December 8 which is two pages; No. 6 5 is

-- is catch and tail audit report which was 6 described as something else; 6 [sic] is a 7 dispatch release; eight there is no exhibit; 8 and 9 is the photo of the right fuselage of 9 

### November 425 Southwest [verbatim] Is that 10 consistent with your notes? 11 

### MR. SPITZER: It is, Your Honor, 12 and we also show all of those as having been 13 accepted. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And I'm sure that 15 they were all admitted. 16 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 17 Honor. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that correct, 19 Mr. Emerson? 20 MR. EMERSON: Yes, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: And in fairness 22 the only exhibit that I have so far NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 235 1 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, we have 2 

### referred to Exhibit 1 

### and 2 

### in 3 cross-examination, but I have not offered 4 those into evidence. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What I have is 6 

### Respondent's Exhibit R-5, which is the 7 depositionof Mr. Perkins which still remains 8 sealed. And let's see. Okay. Just so we do 9 

### this correctly what I'm going to do, 10 Counsel, is I'm going to show R-1, 2, 3, and 11 4 as marked for identification. Okay? That's 12 so they're part of the record. 13 

### MR. SPITZER: No dispute with 14 that, Your Honor. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And just

- - not 16 receiving them into evidence, they're just 17 marked. 18 

### All right. Given where we are now 19 

### --you concluded your case in chief. Okay. 20 Let's take a -- I've got 20 minutes to 3:00. 21 Let's take a break until five of 3:00 so I can 22 do some housekeepinghere. Then we' 11 resume NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com236 1 with Mr. Emerson's case. 2 MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay? We're off 4 the record

-- go ahead. 5 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I just 6 want to clarify. Has Exhibit 5 the

-- or 7 Inspector Perkins' deposition been accepted 8 into evidence? 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. It's been 10 marked as an exhibit. It's still sealed. 11 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 12 Honor. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to you. 14 If either one of you want me to-- want to put 15 it ln, I don't care. But for the Court's 16 purposes it was marked for identificationand 17 that's all that was done. 18 You referred to it, Mr. Emerson, 19 but we never unsealed the copy that the Court 2

### o has, nor did we show that copy to the witness. 21 All right. So we're off the 22 record. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 237 1 (A break was taken from 2:40 to 2 2:59.) 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson? 4 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, at this 5 time Respondent SkyWest makes a motion for a 6 

### judgment at law. This Court has heard 7 

### evidence and if

-- all of that evidence, even 8 if taken as true, from the FAA does not 9 demonstrate that this aircraft took off with 10 frost on its wings on December 7, 2011, at 11 Salt Lake International Airport. 12 We've heard the evidence from 13 

### Inspector Aaron Perkins. His testimony was 14 that the last moment that he visually 15 confirmed the presence of frost on the wings 16 of this aircraft was at 7:48 and that the 17 aircraft departed at 8:08. There is a 18 20-minute gap from the time that that frost 19 was observed till the time that it departed. 20 Mr. Perkins also testifiedthat it 21 only becomes a violation upon departure and 22 that before allegations that FARs were NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com238 1 violated all hinge on departing with frost on 2 the wings. This Court has no evidence that 3 this aircraft departed with frost on its 4 wings. At most it left the gate with frost on 5 its wings, and from there nobody knows what 6 happened next. 7 The FAA has the burden of showing 8 it was more 1ikely than not. Mr. Perkins 9 doesn 1t know. And the expert which was 10 called, Mr. Bond, who has impressive 11 credentialsas an icing expert in flight, also 12 ultimately offered an opinion that frost was 13 there but didn 1t do the math for the Court to 14 tell us how that was possible. Instead it was 15 based generally on his experience in the 16 field. 17 We didn 1t hear about dewpoint, 18 temperature, frost point, the conductive 19 properties of the airfoil itself, radiation 20 received from the sun, ambient energy. 21 Nothing. Just a conclusive opinion that it 22 must have been there. And, Your Honor, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com239

1 without hitting those basic elements, there's 2 absolutelyno need for this trial to continue. 3 The Administratorhas not met his burden, and 4 the case should be dismissed. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, do 6 you want to be heard? 7 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 8 Your Honor, Mr. Emerson is correct with 9 respect to the burden of proof that is on the 10 Administrator. And as I'm sure you need no 11 reminding, it is a burden of reliable and 12 probative evidence, that we have to establish 13 a preponderanceof that evidence. Your Honor, 14 we've done more than that. 15 You've heard testimony from Mr. 16 Perkins that he observed frost on the wing, he 17 felt the frost on the wing, and he 18 photographed the frost on the wing. You also 19 heard testimony that he followed the aircraft 20 as it taxied out of the

-- of the gate and 21 that it was airborne less than

-- less than 20 22 minutes after he last observed the frost. NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 W«W.nealrgross.com240

1 Your Honor, you heard testimony 2 from Mr. Perkins that the aircraft taking off 3 did form a violation, and it was a violation 4 of numerous FAA regs for two reasons. One is 5 because the aircraft departed with frost on 6 the wings, and the other one is because the 7 aircraftdepartedwithouthavingde-icedafter 8 having had frost on the wings. That's the 9 operations specifications violation. 10 You've heard testimony from Mr. 11 Perkins and also from Tom Bond that SkyWest's 12 program does not allow them to take an 13 aircraft off after there's been frost on the 14 wings discovered without having removed that 15 frost and going through de-ice. So, yes, 16 InspectorPerkins is correct. The aircraft

-- 17 there is no violation if the aircraft didn't 18 take off, but it did. It took off. 19 Furthermore, the Respondent has 20 raised the

-- this specter that the frost may 21 have sublimated. However, this is an 22 affirmative defense, Your Honor, and the NEALR. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 241 1 burden shifts right back to the respondent to 2 prove his affirmative defense. 3 

### We've you've heard testimony 4 

### from

-- from Tom Bond that in his experience, 5 

### whichnumbers 26 

### somethingyears of lookingat 6 

### aircraft and dealing with frost, that this 7 

### frost was still on the aircraft's wing at the 8 

### time the aircraft took off. And you also heard 9 

### testimony from Inspector Perkins that the 10 

### frost was still on the wing when the aircraft 11 

### took off. 12 Your Honor we haven't heard any 13 

### evidence from the Respondent short of a bunch 14 of conclusory questions conducted on 15 cross-examination of Inspector Perkins that 16 would meet his burden of proving that 17 affirmative defense that frost was not on the 18 aircraft at the time it took off. 19 

### Your Honor, I believe that the 20 Administrator has more than met his burden 21 with respect to showing a preponderance of 22 reliable and probative evidence that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com242 1 establishes that the aircrafthad frost on its 2 wings prior to takeoff and that it took off 3 with the frost on the wings and without having 4 gone through de-ice resulting in a violation 5 of the carrier's ops specs 121.629, which 6 prohibits taking off with frost and ice on the 7 wings, and 91.13, which prohibits careless or 8 reckless operation of an aircraft. 9 Thank you, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to deny 11 the motion at this time and review it 12 reconsider it againwhen I review the entirety 13 of it all. 14 So do you want to proceed? 15 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I 16 reserved my opening statement. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. I recall 18 that. 19 MR. EMERSON: And you've heard 20 most of it in my motion for a judgment as a 21 matter of law 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com243

1 

### MR. EMERSON: which is they 2 haven't made the case. It's that simple. The 3 affirmative defenses don't kick in until 4 

### there's actually some evidence that the 5 

### aircraft took off with frost on its wings. The 6 

### only evidence we have is that it was at the 7 

### gate with frost on its wings. It could have 8 

### sublimated on 9 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 10 Honor. Argumentative. 11 

### MR. EMERSON: I 'm making argument. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is his 13 argument. Overruled. 14 Go ahead. 15 

### MR. EMERSON: So the

-- sure, an 16 affirmativedefensemight kick in if Inspector 17 

### Perkins had said I saw that at the frost at 18 spot 23 or I followed it down to the end of 19 the runway and as it started to roll out that 20 

### frost was still there. Then, yes, I would 21 certainly have an affirmative defense and a 22 burden to show that, no, it wasn't there. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com244

1 As observed, it could sublimate 2 and it was gone and Inspector Perkins is 3 wrong. I don't need to have offered that 4 evidence or even put on that defense because 5 the only evidence we have is of a 6 non-violation, which is that you publish back 7 from the gate with frost on its wings. Mr. 

### s Perkins says it happens all the time. 9 So the Administrator is guessing, 10 Your Honor, what happened. You're not allowed 11 to guess. You've got to bring evidence and 12 prove and meet your burden. 13 SkyWest will call the following 14 witnesses to demonstrate that the 15 Administrator's guess is not particularly 16 plausible. The first witness is Mr. Dave 17 Katsilas. He is the director of operations at 18 Salt Lake International Airport for SkyWest 19 Airlines. Mr. Katsilas will testify about 20 de-icing operations that morning and the 21 number of SkyWest flights that received 22 de-icing. And he will testify that no flight NEAL R. GROSS (202} 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nea!rgross.com

### 245 1 which originatedat another airport, came and 2 

### did a turn and left, took de-icing on that 3 morning. The only aircraftthat took de-icing 4 

### had beenparked at the airport all night long. 5 

### You'll next hear from the flight 6 crew, and they will walkyou through the steps 7 

### that they took to execute the SkyWest de-icing 8 

### program, includir:g- the walk-around and 9 additional checks to make sure that the 10 aircraft wings were secure prior to flight. 11 You'll also hear from a passenger on that 12 flight who happens to be a pilot and also a 13 first officer and knows about walking around 14 

### an airplane and what to look for. You will 15 hear he was curious as to whether or not the 16 aircraftwouldbe delayedas it took de-icing. 17 And he will testify that he looked out and 18 examined the wings and so no -- no frost, as 19 a percipient witness. 20 

### You'll then hear from Spencer 21 Hyde, Your Honor, who is a director at SkyWest 22 Airlines in charge of media serviceswho's had NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 246 1 some ability to examine the photograph 2 produced by the FAA and will testify in 3 rebuttal to the evidence offered by Mr. 4 Perkins that that photograph has not been 5 modified. 6 

### Finally, you'll hear from Dr. 7 Kevin Perry, who is the chair of atmospheric 8 sciences at the University of Utah who will 9 offer testimony about the formation and 10 sublimation of frost and specifically walk 11 through the atmospheric and meteorological 12 elementspresent on the morningof December 7, 13 2011, to determine whether frost could form, 14 how deep and thick that frost would be, 15 whether that frost was durable, and whether 16 there was enough energy in the atmosphere to 17 sublimate that frost prior to departure. 18 Your Honor, we call Mr. Katsilas. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. While 2

### o you're calling the witness, remember at 4:30 21 we're going to have a break. So that's an 22 admonishment to both of you. So I don't want NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com247 

### 1 either one of you to get caught in the middle 2 

### of your cross or direct at 4:30. As I said 3 before, I run into this nationwide where the 4 

### the fund I've got to get special 5 permission from the clerk who's in DC. And at 6 4:30 it will be 5:30 in D.C. 7 So anyway, we'll go and where

-- 8 wherever we are on or about 4:30, no later 9 than 4:30, we'll break. 10 

### MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: If we 're done, 12 we're done. 13 

### MR. EMERSON: I can make it if Mr. 14 Spitzer stays in his seat. 15 Mr. Katsilas? 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Would you 17 approach? Raise your right hand. 18 

### (Witness sworn.) 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 20 State your full name for the record and spell 21 your first and last name. 22 

### THE WITNESS: David Alan Katsilas, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com248 

### 1 D-A-V-I-D, K-A-T-8-I-L-A-S. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 3 DAVID A. KATSILAS, 4 

### called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 5 

### was examined and testified as follows: 6 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 8 Q 

### Mr. Katsilas, where are you 9 employed? 10 A 

### SkyWest Airlines. 11 Q 

### In what 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. 13 Mr. Spitzer, do you need to move 14 so you better see the witness? 15 

### MR. SPITZER: I'm fine right where 16 I am, Your Honor. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 18 

### Go ahead. I'm sorry. 19 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Where are you 20 employed, Mr. Katsilas? 21 A 

### SkyWest Airlines. 22 Q 

### How long have you been employedby NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 INWW.nealrgross.com249 1 

### SkyWest? 2 A 

### Just under 31 

### years. 3 Q 

### What is your current position? 4 A 

### I am the lead manager of hub 5 

### operations. I have oversight of all of our 6 SkyWest-handled hubs. 7 Q 

### Is Salt Lake International one of 8 

### those hubs that you have oversight for? 9 A 

### Yes, it is. 10 Q 

### Was this your position on December 11 7' 2011? 12 A 

### No, it wasn't. 13 Q 

### What was your position then? 14 A 

### I was the general manager of Salt 15 

### Lake City for SkyWest Airlines. 16 Q 

### Any other airports? 17 A 

### No. 18 Q 

### Did de-icingoperations fall under 19 your purview as the general manager of Salt 20 Lake City international airport? 21 A 

### Yes, it would. 22 Q 

### For SkyWest-operated aircraft? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 250

1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Are you familiar with how many 3 aircraft received de-icing on the

-- SkyWest 4 

### aircraft on the morning of December 7, 2011? 5 A 

### One more time. 6 Q 

### Are you familiar with how many 7 aircraft 8 A 

### Yes, I 

### am. 9 Q 

### received de-icing on the 10 morning of December 7? 11 A 

### Yes, I 

### am. 12 Q 

### How many? 13 A 

### There were 15 SkyWest aircraft 14 

### that were -- received de-icing? There was 15 five total aircraft that received de-icing. 16 Q 

### Five received de-icing; 15 total 17 departures? 18 A 

### Correct. 19 Q 

### Before what time? 20 A 

### 9:00 a.m. 21 Q 

### Prior to 9:00a.m. 15 departures? 22 A 

### Correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 251

1 Q 

### Ten received

-- no. Ten did not 2 take de-icing; five did. 3 A 

### Correct. 4 Q 

### Of the five that took de-icing, 5 how many overnighted at the airport? 6 A 

### All five of them did. 7 Q 

### Of the 10 

### that didn't take 8 

### de-icing, howmany overnightedat the airport? 9 A 

### None of them. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: None of them what? 11 THE WITNESS: None of them 12 overnighted. They all came inbound that 13 

### morning and turned around and departed again. 14 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Do you have an 15 opinion as to why those aircraft did not take 16 

### de-icing? 17 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 18 Honor. No foundation for the opinion. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, rephrase the 20 question. 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Were you familiar 22 with the conditionsat the airport on December NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 252 1 7, 2011? 

### 2 A 

### It was a long time ago. Cold. I 

### 3 couldn't explain exactly how the conditions 4 

### were but 5 Q 

### Did you have the opportunity to 6 

### reviewthe de-icinglogs and informationprior 7 

### to coming to court today? 8 A 

### Yes, I did. 9 Q 

### Was any of the atmospheric 10 conditions located there? 11 A 

### Yes, they were. 12 Q 

### Were the conditions conducive to 13 frost formation? 14 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 15 Honor. There'sno foundationfor his knowledge 16 about frost formation. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 18 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead and 19 answer. 20 A 

### Repeat the question. 21 Q 

### Were the conditions conducive for 22 frost formation? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com253

1 A 

### For extended periods of time 2 probably, but not on quick turns. 3 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, same 4 objection. There's no foundation to say this. 5 We have no background in icing, no experience 6 in aviation other than being the manager of 7 the facilitywhich is immaterialto whetherhe 8 knows about icing or not. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 10 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Katsilas, 11 

### have you performed de-icing operations 12 yourself in your 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q

-- 

### career? 15 A 

### Yes, I have. 16 Q 

### How many times would you estimate? 17 A 

### Thousands of times. It's been 18 years but, yes, thousands of times. 19 

### MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You're done? 21 MR. EMERSON: I am. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nea!rgross.com

### 254

1 

### Mr. Spitzer? 2 

### MR. SPITZER: No questions for 3 this witness, Your Honor. 4 

### MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Mr. 5 

### Katsilas. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 7 

### instruct you not to discuss your testimony 8 

### with anybody during the pendency of the 9 

### hearing. 10 

### THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to Counsel 12 

### whetherhe needs to remain. The Court doesn't 13 

### need him. 14 

### MR. EMERSON: I don't intend to 15 

### call him for anythingelse, so I don't mind if 16 

### he watches the rest of the proceedings. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 18 

### MR. EMERSON: SkyWest calls 19 Captain Thomas Gibbs. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Captain, you can 21 

### approach. Stand and raise your right hand. 22 (Witness sworn.) NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.. N.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 255

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 2 State your name for the record and spell your 3 

### first and last name. 4 

### THE WITNESS: Thomas Gibbs, 5 T-H-0-M-A-S, G-I-B-B-S. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Question for you. 7 

### It's the Court's question. In the aviation 8 

### industrywhen they refer to you by your title, 9 

### do they abbreviate it C-P-T or C-A-P-T. 10 

### THE WITNESS: C-A-P-T. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Which is how the 12 

### Navy does it. I'm an Army person. 13 

### THE WITNESS: I'm Air Force. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, well. 15 

### THE WITNESS: Hope we can get 16 

### along. 17 

### MR. EMERSON: We just lost the 18 

### case. Sorry. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. I'm 20 

### sorry. 21 

### THOMAS GIBBS, 22 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 IINIW.nealrgross.com256 

### 1 was examined and testified as follows: 2 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY 

### MR. EMERSON: 4 Q 

### Mr. Gibbs, the acoustic in this 5 

### courtroom, kind of difficult to hear. So 6 

### please answer as loud

-- 7 A 

### Okay. 8 Q 

### -- loud as you can for everyone. 9 

### How are you employed? 10 

### A SkyWest Airlines, I'm a pilot. 11 Q 

### What is your rank at SkyWest 12 

### Airlines? 13 

### A Captain. 14 Q 

### How long have you been a captain? 15 

### A Eight years. 16 Q 

### Captain on what equipment? 17 

### A CRJ200, 7

### 00, 9

### 00. 18 Q 

### How many hours do you have ln the 19 

### 200? 20 

### A About 8,000. 21 Q 

### As a first officer and captain? 22 

### A Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com257

1 Q 

### Prior to the 200 did you operate 2 any other aircraft for SkyWest? 3 A 

### EMB120, the Brasilia. 4 Q 

### Now

-- 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What was that? 6 

### THE WITNESS: The EMB120. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 8 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Were you a 9 captain on the EMB? 10 A 

### No, first officer. 11 Q 

### How long did you serve as the 12 

### first officer? 13 A 

### One year. 14 Q 

### How many hours do you estimate 15 

### that you would have ln the EMB120? 16 A 

### About 800. 17 Q 

### Total commercial flight time 18 

### hours, what is your estimate? 19 A 

### 9500, somewhere in there. 20 Q 

### Where were you educated? 21 A 

### Educated? I 

### went to the 22 University of Maryland. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com

### 258

1 Q 

### Did you receive a degree from the 2 University of Maryland? 3 A 

### No. 4 Q 

### After you left the University of 5 

### Maryland, where did you go next? 6 A 

### I was in the military for 10 7 

### years, still in, so 20 

### years at this point, 8 

### taught at Unity aerospace. 9 Q 

### What did you do in the Air Force? 10 A 

### In the Air Force? My first job 11 

### was security police and then most recently 12 

### maintenance department. 13 Q 

### What did you do after you left the 14 

### Air Force? 15 A 

### I flight instructed. Got my 16 

### flight ratings, flight instructed, and then 17 

### got hired at SkyWest. 18 Q 

### Did you go to a flight school? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Which school? 21 A 

### At the time it was calledWestwind 22 Aviation. NEAL

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### 259

1 Q 

### When did you receive your -- do 2 

### you -- 

### do you hold an ATP certificate? 3 

### A I do. 4 Q 

### When did you first receive that? 5 

### A 2007. 6 Q 

### Have you ever lost that 7 

### certificate? A Q 9 

### Ever had it suspended? A Q 11 

### Have you ever been disciplinedby the FAA in 12 

### any manner for how you operated an 13 

### aircraft? A Q 15 

### Were you the pilot in command on 16 

### Flight 7770 

### departing Salt Lake City on the 17 

### morning of December 7, 20117 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### Can you generally describe the 20 weather conditions on that morning? 21 A 

### Clear. It was cold, clear skies, 22 unlimited visibility. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com260

1 Q 

### Was it cold enough to perform a 2 preflight inspection that included a tactile 3 test for de-icing 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q -- 

### for the presence of frost? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### Did you perform that test? 8 A 

### No. 9 Q 

### Was that test performed by a 10 member of your crew? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### Who did it? 13 A 

### The first officer. 14 Q 

### How do you know that he did it? 15 A 

### I saw him walking around in the 16 glass that's in front of us there at Echo 1. 17 Q 

### He departed the cockpit to perform 18 that? 19 A 

### Correct. 20 Q 

### You viewed him walk around the 21 aircraft? 22 A 

### Correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 261

1 Q 

### At least as far as the cockpit 2 could

-- 3 A 

### Right, as far as I could see. 4 Q 

### -- allow you to view? 5 

### Did he return to the cockpit? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### Did he report that he that 8 there were frosting-- or frost on the wings? 9 A 

### No. 10 Q 

### Did your first officer leave the 11 cockpit again at any point? 12 A 

### Yes. It's our requirement at 13 SkyWest to check the fuel doors after the fuel 14 truck has loaded the aircraft with fuel. 15 Q 

### About what time did the fuel truck 16 arrive at the wing? 17 A 

### About five to 10 minutes before we 18 pushed off the gate. 19 Q 

### So your pushoff from the gate the 20 

### ACARS data, do you recall when that was? 21 A 

### Not specifically, somewherearound 22 7:50, I think, that morning. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 262

1 Q 

### So the fuel truck was there you 2 believe between 7:40 and 7:45? 3 A 

### Correct. 4 Q 

### Why did you take on fuel? 5 A 

### We were going to St. George and 6 just required fuel. 7 Q 

### So then at what point do you 8 

### believe the first officer went to check that 9 

### the fuel door was closed? 10 A 

### He went prior to the fueler 11 

### leaving. He wasn't finished fueling when he 12 

### went out, so it would have been right before 13 

### departure when he was out there. 14 Q 

### Was the fuel door closed? 15 A 

### As far as he reported, yes, it was 16 

### closed. 17 Q 

### Is that located on the wing? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### To see the fuel door, you would 20 also have to look at the wing. 21 A 

### Correct. 22 Q 

### Did the first officer report that NEAL

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### 1 he viewed frost on the wing after looking at 2 it a second time? A 3 No, he didn't report any frost. 4 Q 

### Then you pushed back from the 5 

### gate? 6 

### A Correct. 7 Q 

### And taxied out. 8 

### A That's correct. 9 Q 

### Next to you, Mr. Gibbs, is an 10 exhibit. You'll also find the same exhibit ln 11 this white binder in front of you that is 12 

### Exhibit 2. I'm going to give you a red pen. 13 I'm going to ask you to trace the path that 14 your aircraft took as it taxied out from gate 15 El. El would be 16 

### A Over here? 17 Q 

### Yes. 18 

### A Okay. 19 Q 

### Hang on to this for a second. 20 

### A Okay. 21 Q 

### Would you thicken those lines so 22 

### they can be well seen later? NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 264

1 A 

### (Witness complies.) 2 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, the 3 witness has indicatedthat he taxiedaway from 4 gate E1 towards spot -- 5 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) What is this? 6 A 

### That's spot 21. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Excuse 8 

### me. I didn't hear you. 9 

### THE WITNESS: Spot 21. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Thank 11 

### you. 12 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) You stopped 13 

### drawing at spot 21. Did your aircraft hold 14 

### there? 15 A 

### We held there, yeah, for several 16 minutes. 17 Q 

### Would you put an X where your 18 aircraft held? 19 A 

### (Witness complies.) 20 Q 

### Thank you. 21 

### After holding, what did your 22 aircraft do next? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nea!rgross.com

### 265

1 A 

### Well, it's standard in Salt Lake 2 

### that when an -- the aircraft departs there's 3 a ramp frequency you talk to to depart to a 4 

### spot. They assigned 21. We taxied out there. 5 They say to monitor the ground frequencywhich 6 would give us permission to taxi to where we 7 

### take off. So we sat there and waited for 8 ground control to call us. 9 Q 

### You sat where? 10 A 

### At spot 21. 11 Q 

### How long did you sit there? 12 A 

### Approximately six minutes. 13 Q 

### Where did your aircraft go after 14 holding at that location? 15 

### A Do you want me to draw that? 16 Q 

### Yes. 17 

### A (Witness complies.) 18 

### And that would go to three four 19 

### left, went to three four left. 20 Q 

### Would you put an arrow at the end 21 of your line to indicate the directionyou're 22 heading as you exit the exhibit? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 INWW.nea!rgross.com266

1 

### A (Witness complies.) 2 Q 

### Thank you, Mr. Gibbs. 3 

### So to paint a verbal picture, your 4 

### aircraft departed Echo 1 

### and stayed on a 5 

### westerly course until you got to spot 21 -- 6 A 

### That's correct. 7 Q 

### -- where you held. And then you 8 continued to taxi southbounduntil you got to 9 

### the end of thirty-four left -- 10 

### A Correct. 11 Q -- 

### turned north and departed? 12 

### A Correct. 13 Q 

### Do you recall what your total taxi 14 

### time was? 15 A 

### I don't know what the total time 16 is, but with sitting there six minutes, it 17 couldhave been another four to sixminutes on 18 top of that. So, you know, 10 to 12 to eight 19 

### minutes. ACARS data would show that 20 completely. 21 Q 

### ACARS data will show? 22 A 

### Yeah. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 vvww.nealrgross.com267

1 Q Okay. I'll show that to you next. 2 Mr. Gibbs, would you have taxied 3 over to spot 23? 4 A Twenty-three is an inbound spot, 5 so it's very unlikely we taxied there, so no. 6 Q What does inbound spot mean? 7 A That 1s where ramp control would 8 bring aircraft in and then they would use 22 9 as an outbound spot if they were taxiing 10 aircraft out of that spot. Normally they 11 reserve that for the south end of the E 12 concourse, and then they use 20 and 21 for the 13 north end of the E concourse. 14 Q Would you -- you' 11 see a green 15 line indicatinga differentpathwayout of El. 16 Does it make sense to turn left and go across 17 the ramp that way? 18 A You have aircraft on the south end 19 of that E concourse that's going to be coming 20 northbound there. 21 Q So the direction out of the E 22 concourse from the south end of it is west and NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 268 1 then north. So if you taxied this way you'd 2 3 A 

### Right. 4 Q 

### have 

### a collision with 5 

### northbound traffic. 6 A 

### Correct. 7 Q 

### So your path this day was -- was 8 west and

-- and then south. 9 A 

### Correct. 10 Q 

### Did you observe the FAA

-- or an 11 inspector as you were at the gate? 12 A 

### At the gate, yes. 13 Q 

### What was he doing? 14 A 

### He pulled his car to our right 15 

### side during the pushback after ground 16 personnel disconnected and pulled their tug 17 back into Echo 1. He got out of his car and 18 then talked to the the ramp personnel. 19 Q 

### Did you see him again? 20 A 

### No, never again. 21 Q 

### Did you notice that the FAA was 22 that the inspector was trailing you out to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com269 1 spot 21? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you notice him a beam of your 4 aircraft on the starboard side? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you operate Flight 7770 as the 7 flying pilot? 8 A I don't recall. 9 Q Do you recall whether your 10 aircraft suffered any significant degradation 11 in performance as it departed Salt Lake City? 12 A None that I saw. 13 Q Would you receive an indicator 14 from the aircraft if you were failing to 15 achieve required ground speeds and airspeeds? 16 A Yeah. There's 

### a number of 17 warnings and messages we would hear in the 18 cockpit. 19 Q Did you receive any indicators 20 from the computer or any other mechanical 21 system that was not functioning properly or 22 impeded in any way from from full NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 270 1 performance? 2 A 

### No, no messages. 3 Q 

### From the feel of the aircraft, did 4 

### you notice any lagging or degradation in 5 

### performance? 6 A 

### I can't remember if I flew the 7 

### plane, so I don't

-- I can't state that. 8 Q 

### But even as a passenger would you 9 

### have 10 A 

### No. 11 Q 

### -- noticed? 12 A 

### No. 13 Q 

### In front of you are some loose 14 

### exhibits I think. Do you see them? 15 A I 

### do. 16 Q 

### Out of the book? 17 A 

### No. It's

-- 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Here, you can use 19 the Court's. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Do you recognize 22 Exhibit 6 or do you have it yet? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 271

1 A 

### Okay. This is just the ACARS 2 report that's showing what time whatever 3 the ACARS is recording is sending. 4 Q 

### Look through that report and see 5 

### if you can determine your out time from the 6 

### gate. 7 A 

### Okay. The out time is stated at 8 

### 1451 Zulu on the 7th. 9 Q 

### Would that be 7:51 in the morning? 10 

### A That would be correct. 11 Q 

### There's also a brake release, 12 cargo door close at that time. 13 A 

### Correct. 14 Q 

### Turn the page, please. When did 15 you push and have the airplane move off the 16 

### gate? 17 A 

### 7:52 local time is when it's shown 18 

### that the aircraft started moving, the 19 

### push/movement indication. And it would have 20 

### been a tug that was pushing us backwards. 21 Q 

### What time did you get off the 22 ground? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com272

1 A 

### Off time shows 8:08 local time. 2 Q 

### So from a push at -- and movement 3 at 7:52 to 8:08, how long was your taxi time? 4 A 

### Out at 7:51, nine minutes to there 5 and then another eight minutes, that's 17 6 minutes. 7 Q 

### Shows your movement was actually a 8 minute later at 7 9 A 

### Okay. 10 Q 

### 52. 11 A 

### Oh, okay. 12 Q 

### So could that be 16 minutes? 13 A 

### Could be, yes. 14 Q 

### Anything unusual on pushback? 15 A 

### Nothing. 16 Q 

### Did you experience any delays? 17 A 

### No, no delays. 18 Q 

### Was the runway clear for you to 19 depart on? 20 A 

### It was. We were the only aircraft 21 on that side of the aircraft [verbatim] 22 Q 

### Any traffic ln the alley that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com273 

### 1 would have prevented you from departing? 2 A 

### None. 3 Q 

### Standard pushback and exit? 4 A 

### Yep, that's correct. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: That's all, Mr. 6 

### Gibbs, not just from me. It's somebody 7 else's term. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer? 9 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 10 Honor. 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. SPITZER: 13 Q 

### Good afternoon, Captain Gibbs. 14 I'm Robert Spitzer, counsel for the FAA. Just 15 have a few questions for you. 16 Mr. Gibbs, you have 9,500 hours or 17 

### so of flying experience. Correct? 18 A 

### At SkyWest, that's correct. 19 Q 

### How many total

-- how much time 20 total do you have? 21 A 

### 11,000, somewhere in there. 22 Q 

### So that 9000 hours in flying NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com274 

### 1 9,500 hours of flying experienceyou have, has 2 that all beenbased at Salt Lake City Airport? 3 

### A No, no. 4 Q 

### How long have you been based at 5 

### Salt Lake City Airport? 6 

### A I'm not based at Salt Lake any 7 

### longer. I'm based in Phoenix. 8 Q 

### How long were you based at Salt 9 

### Lake City for? 10 A 

### On and off, probably around three 11 years. 12 Q 

### And during the course of those 13 three years -- that was all with you as a 14 

### captain. Is that correct? 15 A 

### I was on the Brasilia as a first 16 officer for about six months there. 17 Q 

### Just out of curiosity, how many 18 flights wouldyou say you conductedout of the 19 Salt Lake City Airport? 20 A 

### Thousands. I wouldn't

-- I'd have 21 to look that up. 22 Q 

### More than 2,000? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 275 1 A 

### A lot. You know, I couldn't give 2 you an exact number without looking. 3 Q 

### So just just to help me 4 understand SkyWest's operation, when you 5 weren'tbased out of Salt Lake City, couldyou 6 still be flying into Salt Lake City? 7 A 

### Correct. 8 Q 

### So

-- so that's it's fair to 9 say that a good percentage of your flights 10 involve flights to or from Salt Lake City? 11 A I was based in Chicago for three 12 years. I flew out -- in and out of Chicago 13 

### for three years. I was based in Denver and 14 based in Phoenix. I was based in Houston. So 15 there's multiple places I've flown in and out 16 of in the country. 17 Q 

### But Salt Lake City you've flown in 18 and out of thousands of times. 19 A 

### As well as Chicago and Denver. 20 Q 

### Okay. So when you were flying in 21 2011, December 2011, were you based at Salt 22 Lake City? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 276

1 A 

### Yes, that's correct. 2 Q 

### And how long before that were you 3 based at Salt Lake City? 4 A I 

### think probably a year and a 5 

### half, maybe two years. 6 Q 

### And how long after this flight 7 

### were you based at Salt Lake City? 8 A 

### Another year, year and a half. 9 Q 

### Now, it's your testimony this 10 

### flight was -- was a normal flight. Correct? 11 A 

### Correct. 12 Q 

### There was nothing unusual about 13 this flight. Right? 14 A 

### That's correct. 15 Q 

### This flight was from

-- from 16 yourperspectiveas a pilot, a routine flight. 17 Correct? 18 A 

### Very normal, that's correct. 19 Q 

### And it would have been your 20 

### standard practice to trade off with with 21 

### the first officer flying this flight. 22 Correct? NEAL

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### 277 1 A My practice is to trade off round 2 trips. So I would fly a round trip, then he 3 would fly a round trip or she and then I 4 would. 5 Q 

### But it's your testimony that ln 6 this particular

-- on this particular flight 7 you don't remember who was the PIC of that 8 

### flight. Correct? 9 A 

### I was the PIC of the flight. 10 Q 

### Sorry. Who was who was the 11 pilot flying that flight? 12 A 

### I can't recall, that's correct. 13 Q 

### During the taxi did anything 14 abnormal occur on the flight as you remember 15 it? 16 A 

### No. 17 Q 

### How about the pushback? 18 A 

### Pushback was normal. 19 Q 

### So when you when we look at 20 these ACAR datas [verbatim]

-- if you could 21 turn to Exhibit 6 which is in front of you, I 22 think you stated that the aircraft

-- the NEAL

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### 278 1 cargo door would have closed at 1451 Zulu. Is 2 that correct? 3 A 

### That's what the paper indicates, 4 yes. 5 Q 

### Do you remember the time that

-- 6 that you guys left the gate? 7 A 

### The exact time? 8 Q 

### Without relying on the ACARS data, 9 would you be able to tell me the exact time 10 that you left the gate? 11 A 

### No. I've operated thousands of 12 

### flights in and out of Salt Lake. I wouldn't 13 remember one specific exact time. 14 Q 

### So

-- so your recollectionof what 15 times you you conducted this flight on and 16 

### what time things happened on, they're 17 

### supported only by this ACAR data. Correct? 18 A 

### Their support I 

### have 

### a 19 schedule. I couldpull up my schedule and see 20 the times as well. 21 Q 

### Did you pull up that schedule when 22 you came up with the times like the

-- how NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com279 

### 1 long you were waiting at various spots? 2 A 

### No. That's just how I remember 3 

### it. I can't remember exact time we left, but 4 7:50 

### is about the right time. We were on time 5 

### so we arrived in St. George on time as well. 6 Q 

### Okay. Thank you. 7 

### Now, talking about the pushback 8 

### procedure generally, the

-- the ACARS system 9 

### will record a bunch of specific actions that 10 

### the plane takes. Is that correct? 11 A 

### Correct. 12 Q 

### And walk me through what would 13 

### happen on a on a pushback. So if I 14 understand this correctly, the tug is hooked 15 up to the aircraft. Correct? 16 A 

### Correct. 17 Q 

### And the baggage doors were closed. 18 Correct? 19 A 

### Correct. 20 Q 

### And then the passenger door would 21 be closed. Maybe not in that order but... 22 A 

### Yeah, that's correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 280

1 Q 

### And then at some point do

-- you 2 as the pilot or the first officer would 3 

### release the parking brake on the aircraft. 4 

### Correct? 5 A 

### Correct. 6 Q 

### And the ACARS data would register 7 

### the push starting as when the aircraft starts 8 

### moving, when the tires start rolling as it's 9 

### leaving the gate. Correct? 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### And that departure from the gate, 12 

### that's not typicallyunder the aircraft's own 13 

### power. Right? 14 

### A When we push back? 15 

### Q Yes. 16 A That's correct. 17 Q So the tug is providing the push 18 

### for you to leave the gate. Correct? 19 A 

### Correct. That is correct. 20 Q 

### And then once the

-- once the tug 21 

### finishes putting you into position, you're 22 aware the tug has happened, that you are -- NEAL

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1 

### the tug driver would call you either on the 2 

### interphone or through some other means and 3 

### tell you to set the parking break. Is that 4 

### correct? 5 A 

### Correct. Normally it's hand 6 signals. That's correct. 7 Q 

### So

-- but it's fair to say that 8 

### somebody would communicate to you to set the 9 

### parking brake after the pushback happened. 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### And then once the parking brake 12 

### had been set, the tug would drive off. 13 

### Correct? 14 A 

### That's correct. 15 Q 

### And then the you guys would 16 

### start the engines and begin your taxi. 17 

### Correct? 18 A 

### That's not correct. We start the 19 

### engines on pushback. 20 Q 

### So so the aircraft is being 21 

### pushed back, you're spooling the engines up, 22 

### so the engines are runningby the time the tug NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 282 1 has let go? 2 A 

### Most of the time both engines are 3 

### running by the time

-- by the time the tug 4 

### leaves. 5 Q 

### How about this particular flight? 6 A 

### As far as I 

### can remember, yes, 7 

### both engines were runningbeforethe tug left. 8 Q 

### But do you have a 

### specific 9 recollectionof when you started them on this 10 flight or is it a general recollection? 11 A 

### Just a general recollection. 12 Q 

### Mr. Gibbs, you never conducted a 13 walk-around when the aircraft was on the 14 

### ground in

-- in Salt Lake City. Correct? 15 A 

### That's correct. 16 Q 

### So you were-- and it's fine, but 17 you were relying upon your first officer's 18 walk-around. Correct? 19 A 

### That's correct. 20 Q 

### When we talk about the

-- the fuel 21 door, help me understand what that involves. 22 I believe the fuel door is on the right hand NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 283

1 

### or starboard side of aircraft. Correct? 2 A 

### Correct. 3 Q 

### And it's located at the wing root 4 of the aircraft. 5 A 

### That's correct. 6 Q 

### So

-- and the

-- the main cabin 7 door on this aircraft is located on the port 8 side at the front of the aircraft just aft of 9 

### the cockpit. Correct? 10 A 

### That's correct. 11 Q 

### So the path that your first 12 officer would have taken would have been in 13 front of the nose of the aircraft and then 14 around in front of the aircraft over to the 15 

### right to the wing. Correct? 16 A 

### That's correct. 17 Q 

### And at no point in his

-- ln his 18 path would he have walked behind the wing of 19 the aircraft. Correct? 20 A 

### That's more than likely correct. 21 Q 

### Do you remember specificallywhere 22 he walked on this flight? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 284

1 A 

### For the fuel door check? 2 Q 

### Yes. 3 A 

### Probablyjust to the fuel door and 4 

### back. 5 Q 

### Do you have any specific 6 recollection of watching him walk-around the 7 

### aircraft to -- to get to the fuel door? 8 A 

### To the back of the aircraft during 9 

### the fuel door check? 10 Q 

### Do you do you have any 11 

### recollection at all of observing him as he 12 

### walked out of the aircraft to the fuel door? 13 A 

### Not when he checked the fuel door, 14 

### no. 15 Q 

### You just can't remember that? 16 A 

### No. I 

### saw him earlier do the 17 walk-aroundwhere he went backbehind the wing 18 earlier when we got into Salt Lake from St. 19 George. When he went back to check the fuel 20 door, I just know that he left to check the 21 

### fuel door and I was programming the flight 22 data system with the weight and balance. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com285 1 Q But you never observed him check 2 the fuel door. Correct? 3 A I did not. 4 Q You never observed ice on this 5 aircraft at any point. Right? 6 A Correct. 7 Q During this layover on the ground. 8 A Correct. 9 Q So you never observed ice on the 10 aircraft or frost on the aircraft when you -- 11 when you arrived at it

-- this is a term. 12 Withdrawn. 13 You never observed frost on the 14 aircraft at the time the first officer was 15 conducting his preflight. Right? 16 A No. I was in the cockpit. 17 Q Could you have observed the frost 18 from the cockpit? 19 A Unlikely. 20 Q Why is that? 21 A It's

-- you only can see out the 22 cockpit, especially out the right

-- or the NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com286 

### 1 right I can't say any part of the wing. Out 2 

### the left I can I can see the winglet that 3 

### tips out there, the tip of the wing. 4 Q 

### Did you observe Inspector Perkins 5 

### conducting his

-- his check of the aircraft 6 

### before you departed? 7 A 

### No. The only time I saw him was 8 

### after we pushed back talking to the ramp 9 

### people. 10 Q 

### Mr. Gibbs, you still work for 11 

### SkyWest Airlines. Correct? 12 A 

### That's correct. 13 

### MR. SPITZER: One second, Your 14 

### Honor. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 16 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Just a few more 17 

### questions, Mr. Gibbs. 18 

### Turning again to Exhibit 6, 

### the

-- 19 

### the ACARS data from this aircraft. And as you 20 

### stand right now with the state of yourmemory, 21 

### this is the only log of the time that the 22 

### aircraft that still exists for you. Is NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WINW.nealrgross.com

### 287

1 

### that correct? 2 A 

### As far as I know. I can -- like I 3 said, I can go back and look at my schedule. 4 Q 

### But you have no independent 5 

### recollection on whether these times are 6 

### accurate or inaccurate. Right? 7 A 

### Well, we check the clock to make 8 

### sure the clock's correct, and it tells the 9 

### ACARS what time it is. 10 Q 

### Right. But separate from this 11 

### ACARS data, sitting here today, you couldn't 12 

### quibble with the 1451. 

### You couldn't say, no, 13 

### I remember that as being a different time. Is 14 

### that fair? 15 A 

### No, these are the correct times. 16 Q 

### They're the correct times because 17 

### they're written in here. Correct? 18 A 

### Well, we check the clock on our 19 

### preflight during our preflight checks. The 20 

### clock tells the ACARS what time it is. So 21 

### these times are what the time is. I don't 22 understand what you're getting at. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 w.NN.nealrgross.com288

1 Q I'm trying to figure out -- you 2 don't have any independent memory of these

-- 3 of these times. Correct? 4 A Other than the clock, no, I don't 5 have any other independent information of the 6 time. 7 Q Okay. So looking at the data that 8 are on page -- page 3, we see the entry at the 9 top of the page. It says 1452:00 Zulu and it 10 says push/movement. 11 A Correct. 12 Q This

-- you said that this was the 13 this is the push event. Right? This is 14 the start of taxi. 15 A Right. 16 Q The start withdrawn. 17 The start of the pushback 18 procedure. 19 A Correct. 20 Q The next event that's here is 21 1458:00 Zulu. And it says, "Brake set." Is 22 that fair to say that that's the point at NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 289 1 which you or your first officer applied the 2 brake to disconnect the tug? 3 A 

### Correct. 4 Q 

### The next entry we see on here is 5 at 1500 Zulu, and it says, ''Brake release." 6 Is that fair to say that that's the point that 7 

### you release the brake to taxi away from the 8 position that the aircraft was towed into? 9 A 

### Correct. 10 Q 

### And the next item of data that we 11 have is 1502. It says, ''Brake set.'' 12 A 

### Correct. 13 Q 

### As you sit here today, do you 14 believe that that's the time that you showed 15 up at what you have identified as spot 21? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And then it says at 1504 Zulu, 18 "Brake release." As you sit here today, do 19 you believe that's the time that you left spot 20 

### 21? 21 A 

### Yes, that's correct. 22 Q 

### And is it fair to say also that a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 WWIN.nea!rgross.com290

1 

### period of two minutes elapsed from the brake 2 set as you entered spot 21 to 1504 where the 3 

### brake was released as you left spot 21? 4 

### A Yeah, that would be correct. 5 Q 

### And then the last entry is the 6 

### 1508, so 8:08. This shows the aircraft as 7 

### off, which means that's that's when the 8 

### squat switch is extended, the aircraft is

-- 9 

### is airborne. Is that correct? 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### So a period of about four minutes 12 

### elapsed from you leaving spot 21 to arriving 13 

### or to actually getting into the air. 14 A 

### That would be that would be 15 

### correct. 16 Q 

### Earlier, Mr. Gibbs, you stated 17 

### during your testimony in the direct 18 examinationby your counsel that the aircraft 19 was parked at spot 21 for six minutes. 20 

### Looking at these ACAR data here, wouldyou now 21 

### say that the aircraft was stopped at spot 21 22 

### for only two minutes? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com291

1 A That-- yeah, that's-- ACARS is 2 correct. 3 Q One additional math question, Mr. 4 Gibbs. I apologize for these questions. 5 A That's okay. 6 Q Looking back on the third page of 7 this document, you testified that the

-- the 8 time marked 1500 Zulu is identified as brake 9 release, and you testified that that was the 10 point at which your jet left the spot that it 11 had been pushed to on the pushback. Correct? 12 A Correct. You know, I don't 13 that's what I have to go with, what this says. 14 So that would make sense that after the push 15 we set the brake and then we startedmoving

-- 16 after 7:58 we started moving at 8:00 to start 17 taxiing. 18 Q And the aircraft was off at -- at 19 8:08, so the taxi time from the spot the 2

### o aircraft was pushed to to when it was airborne 21 was eight minutes. Correct? 22 A That's correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNw.nealrgross.com

### 292

1 Q 

### Do you remember what the lighting 2 conditions were like on the morning of 3 December 7, 2011? 4 A 

### Light. It was day out. 5 Q 

### Was it a brilliant sunshine just 6 

### just after sunrise? Just generally could 7 you describe the lighting condition? 8 A 

### There was no -- it was daytime. 9 

### It was it was in the morning. It was 10 daytime. 11 Q 

### Was it dark when your first 12 officer conducted his preflight? 13 A No. 14 Q 

### Was it also daytime when your 15 first officer conducted his preflight? 16 A 

### Was it dark when he conducted his 17 preflight 18 Q 

### Yes. 19 A 

### -- or was it daylight? 20 Q 

### Yes. 21 A 

### It was daytime and light when he 22 walked around the aircraft. NEAL

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1 Q 

### Same descriptionof the light when 2 he did the walk-around, it was daylight, not 3 

### twilight or -- 4 A 

### Right. 5 Q 

### Do you remember if the aircraft 6 

### was in the shadow when it was parked at the 7 

### gate? 8 A 

### I don't recall. 9 

### MR. SPITZER: No further 10 questions, Your Honor. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 12 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 13 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 14 Q 

### Mr. Gibbs, you testifiedthat this 15 was a routine flight, was a flight to St. 16 

### George. Are there other factors you might 17 consider as a pilot on a flight to St. George? 18 A 

### St. George is our headquarters, so 19 a lot of times we have the president, vice 20 president, or management on the aircraft, a 21 lot of company employees. 22 Q 

### You're always cautious when you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 w-Nw.nealrgross.com294 1 operate an aircraft. Would you operate with 2 even more caution operating a flight to 3 headquarters? 4 A Echo 1 is directly underneath our 5 chief pilot's office, and obviously with St. 6 George we always know that we're going to have 7 somebody in our direct management on the 8 aircraft. 9 Q You said your engines were -- were 10 started there at the gate. 11 A On pushback that's our practice to 12 start the engines. That's correct. 13 Q When the engines are running is 14 there a mechanismwhere the fuel can be heated 15 that you took on board? 16 A There is. 17 Q What is that mechanism? 18 A It's a motoflow that draws fuel 19 from the tanks as they

-- fuel comes up to it, 20 there's an oil-fuel exchange that heats the 21 fuel and pools the oil and then that

-- some 22 of that fuel returns to the tank and warms the NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 w-NW.nealrgross.com295 

### 1 tank. 2 Q 

### Mr. Spitzer asked you if you were 3 still employedwith the company. Do you have 4 some pay incentive to avoid de-icing? 5 A 

### None. It's more of an incentive. 6 We get paid by the minute. 7 Q 

### You stood to make more money if 8 you stopped for de-icing. 9 A 

### Correct. 10 

### MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything from you 12 on that? 13 

### MR. SPITZER: Nothing further from 14 the Administrator. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further need 16 of this witness? 17 

### MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Captain, I'm going 19 to admonish you not to discuss your testimony 20 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 21 hearing. You're free to go. 22 

### THE WITNESS: Can I stay in the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 W'I'NI.nealrgross.com

### 296 1 courtroom, Your Honor? 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to the two 3 

### attorneys. I don't care. 4 

### MR. EMERSON: It's fine by me, 5 Your Honor. 6 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, as long 7 as he's not planning on testifying anymore -- 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Same same 9 admonition to anybody else staying in the 10 courtroom. 11 You can step down if you want to 12 remain ln the courtroom. 13 

### THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 14 

### (Discussion off the record.) 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 16 your right hand. 17 (Witness sworn.) 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 19 State your full name and spell your first and 20 last name. 21 THE WITNESS: Full name is Dennis 22 Michael Burr, D-E-N-N-I-S, and then Burr, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 297 1 B-U-R-R. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 3 DENNIS MICHAEL BURR, 4 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified as follows: 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. EMERSON: 8 Q 

### Good afternoon, Mr. Burr. How are 9 you employed? 10 A 

### By SkyWest Airlines. 11 Q 

### What's your position at SkyWest? 12 A 

### First officer. 13 Q 

### How long have you been a first 14 officer at SkyWest? 15 A 

### Oh, about six and a half years. 16 Q 

### What aircraft do you currently 17 operate? 18 A 

### CRJ all three variants. 19 Q 

### The 200, 700, and 900? 20 A 

### Correct. 21 Q 

### Have you always operated those 22 aircraft for SkyWest Airlines? NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com298

1 A 

### As long as I've been employed 2 there. 3 Q 

### How many hours do you have in the 4 

### CRJ? 5 A 

### Oh, probably about 5,000. 6 Q 

### In all three types total? 7 A 

### Uh-huh. 8 Q 

### Did you accumulate any time in the 9 

### RJ prior to coming to SkyWest? 10 A 

### No. 11 Q 

### Did you operate any other aircraft 12 prior to coming to SkyWest? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### What did you operate? 15 A 

### Flew at Utah Valley University 16 well it's a university now, but at that time 17 it was Utah Valley State College. 18 Q 

### You flew aircraft there? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Were you a flight instructor? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### How long were you a 

### flight NEAL

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1 instructor? 2 A Two years. 3 Q Where did you attend school post 4 high school? 5 A Utah Valley State College which is 6 now Utah Valley University. 7 Q Did you receive a degree from that 8 institution? 9 A I did. 10 Q Did you graduate with any honors? 11 A Magna cum laude. 12 Q You speak any foreign languages? 13 A I do. I

-- I speak Russian. 14 Q Russian? 15 Did you receive any other 16 education after leaving Utah Valley 17 University? 18 A No. 19 Q Have you ever been disciplined by 20 the FAA? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you currently hold an ATP NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com300 

### 1 certificate? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### Have you ever had that certificate 4 

### suspended? 5 A 

### No. 6 Q 

### Revoked? 7 A 

### No. 8 Q 

### Does SkyWest have a de-icing 9 

### program? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### Have you been trained in that 12 

### program? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Do you know why SkyWest would have 15 

### a de-icing program? 16 A 

### For safety. 17 Q 

### What safety is put forward by 18 

### having a de-icing program? 19 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 20 Honor. Foundation. 21 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Do you know

-- 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll sustain that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com301 

### 1 objection. 2 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Do you know what 3 

### the de-icing program is designed to 4 

### accomplish? 5 A 

### Yeah. To make sure airplanes take 6 

### off in a safe condition. 7 Q 

### In a safe condition. 8 A 

### Yeah. 9 Q 

### Without contaminantson the wings? 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### Why is that important? 12 A 

### Because

-- 13 

### MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 14 

### Honor. 15 A 

### If you -- 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 17 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll overrule 19 

### understanding it goes to weight, Counsel. 20 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) What is it 21 

### importantto take off without a contaminanton 22 your wings? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com302

1 A 

### Because if 

### you've got 2 contaminationon your wings, they don't create 3 

### the correct lift like a clean wing would and 4 

### they create more drag. 5 Q 

### Have you ever knowingly operated 6 

### an aircraft from ground to take off with 7 

### contaminant on its wings? 8 A 

### No. 9 Q 

### By contaminant I mean snow, ice, 10 

### or frost. 11 A 

### No. 12 Q 

### Were you one of the pilots on 13 

### Flight 7770 operated out of Salt Lake City 14 

### International Airport on December 7, 2011? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### What was your role on that flight? 17 A 

### First officer. 18 Q 

### Did you perform any preflight 19 operations for Flight 7770? 20 A 

### I did. 21 Q 

### What were those? 22 A 

### So it' s combined as a -- you know, NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com303 1 a post/preflight inspection of the aircraft, 2 and you go walk-around the aircraft and make 3 sure that everything's

-- as far as you can 4 tell is in good working order as far as you 5 know, you don't have any bald tires or bird 6 strikes or anything. When the temperature is 7 colder outside, you check and make sure you 8 haven't accumulated any ice or frost or 9 anything like that. I call it a cold weather 10 inspection. 11 Q Was the temperature cold enough to 12 perform a cold weather inspectionon December 13 7th? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did you perform a cold weather 16 inspection? 17 A I did. 18 Q What does that entail? 19 A Going-- basically it's looking at 20 the wings and making sure that there isn't 21 anything frozen on the airplane. So you-- as 22 you do your walk-around, you can touch the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com304 1 wings

-- you know, they call it a tactile 2 check-- to make it easier for you to identify 3 if there's anything frozen on the wing or not. 4 You know, as I walk around the airplane, I do 5 that on on both wings. 6 Q Did you perform both a visual and 7 tactile inspection of the wings on Flight 8 77707 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you detect any contaminantson 11 those wings? 12 A No. 13 Q Did you feel there was enough 14 ambient light to perform that or did you need 15 a flashlight? 16 A No, there was enough ambient 17 light. 18 Q I would like you to look at 19 Exhibit 3. It shouldbe there in front of you 20 loosely and not in that book. Are there any 21 loose exhibits there? No? 22 MR. EMERSON: Did you take those NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com305 

### 1 back? 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: They 1

### re up here. 3 Here you go. 4 

### THE WITNESS: Thanks. 5 Q (By 

### MR. EMERSON) Those are 6 numbered. If you look at the yellow sticker, 7 go to Exhibit 3, please. Yes. 8 

### Can you tell what 1

### s depicted in 9 this picture? 10 A 

### Yeah, it looks like the trailing 11 edge of the wing out near the end. 12 Q 

### Left or right wing? 13 A 

### Probably, I 1

### d say, the right wing. 14 Q 

### Do you see the areas that have 15 rivets in it in this picture? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### About how big are those areas? 18 A 

### Probably about a foot. 19 Q 

### One square foot? 20 A 

### Yeah, probably. Yeah. 21 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, the 22 evidence

-- he 1

### s indicatingwith his handwhat NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com306 

### 1 he believes the size to be of these panels. 2 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Would you hold 3 those up and show the judge again? 4 A 

### Probably about. 5 Q 

### So I have a ruler here that's one 6 foot. 7 A 

### Like you're talking from here to 8 here? 9 Q 

### Yes. 10 A 

### Yeah, that's about a foot. 11 Q 

### Between the rivets, about a foot 12 each way? 13 A 

### Yeah. 14 Q 

### The aircraft wing, how how 15 large is the right wing of the CRJ200, if you 16 know? 17 A Well, the wing span is like 69 

### and 18 half feet. You mean like square footage of 19 the wing? 20 Q 

### Just from the root to the tip. Do 21 you know how far out that is? 22 A 

### Well, let's see. Yeah, I can NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com307

1 

### figure it out real quick. It's going to be 2 about

-- yeah, about 60 feet, about 60 feet. 3 Q 

### From tip to tip of the wings? 4 A 

### Oh, from from tip to tip, like 5 69 

### and a half feet. 6 Q 

### Sixty-nine. So from root to tip 7 

### of one of the wings less than half of that? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### If the root of the wing was at the 10 

### glass, would the tip of the wing reach the 11 

### wall? 12 A 

### Pretty close, yeah. 13 Q 

### Look again at this picture, 14 Exhibit No. 3. You'll see something depicted 15 betweenthe rivets, and there are four panels. 16 

### You can see two and a half of them. Is that 17 right? There's a panel to the right side of 18 the photograph with just a little sliver 19 

### there. But if I cover the panels with this 20 piece of paper with the frost there, do you 21 believe, one, two, three

-- 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com308 

### 1 yes. 2 A 

### Yes, yes. 3 Q 

### Okay. Do you know what the total 4 square footage of that wing is? 5 A 

### Oh, probably about 500 well, 6 let's see. About 560. 7 Q 

### For both wings. So what would one 8 wing square footage be? 9 A 

### Half of that, so like 230

-- yeah, 10 250. 11 Q 

### Somewhere around 250 square foot. 12 This picture depicts perhaps three square of 13 those feet with some form of contaminant on 14 it, would you agree? 15 A 

### Yeah. Yes. 16 Q 

### Why don't you look at that chart 17 right next to you. That's Exhibit 2 in your 18 book, but we'll look at it here together. 19 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor I 'm going 20 

### to object to showing this exhibit. This 21 violates the sequester order that's currently 22 in place. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 INWW.nealrgross.com309 

### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 2 

### MR. EMERSON: I'll make sure that 3 I don't. 4 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, there's 5 

### no way to avoid that. It's

-- at this point 6 

### it's

-- it's pretty obvious what that shows. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It's not obvious. 8 

### It's on the record, Counsel, so it's 9 overruled. 10 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Look at your 11 book, Exhibit 2 in the book. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 2 or 13 14 

### MR. EMERSON: Respondent's 2. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- Agency 2? 16 

### MR. EMERSON: Yes, Respondent 1

### s 2, 17 Your Honor. 18 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Can you tell what 19 is depicted in Exhibit No. 2? 20 A 

### Looks like the end of E concourse 21 in Salt Lake. 22 Q 

### You operated aircraft in and out NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com310 

### 1 of that concourse? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### In fact Flight 7770 

### left from that 4 

### concourse didn't it? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### Do you remember which gate? 7 A 

### Echo 1, E1. 8 Q 

### So you taxied out. Do you 9 

### remember whether you went straight to the end 10 

### of that runway or if you were held at any 11 

### position? 12 A 

### We taxied out to spot 21, and we 13 

### waited there for the ground control to call 14 

### us. 15 Q 

### Okay. Now look at the blowup 16 picture there. 17 

### MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 18 Honor. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 20 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) Can you there 21 

### are 1ines all over the place: Green one, red 22 one, other lines. Do you see a line that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 311 1 represents the taxi path that your aircraft 2 took on morning of December 7th or is there 3 another path that you would indicate? 4 A 

### It would have been

-- 5 

### MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 6 Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 8 A 

### -- the red line. 9 Q 

### The red line indicates 10 A 

### Uh-huh. 11 Q 

### -- the path that your -- 12 A 

### That X right there is about where 13 spot 21 would be. 14 

### MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 15 Honor. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 17 

### If you want to, Counsel, you can 18 just indicate a continuing objection. 19 

### MR. SPITZER: Okay, Your Honor. I 20 didn't

-- 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's it's

-- 22 either way. I understand what you're doing. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com312

1 

### You can either object individually or 2 continuing. It's up to you. The Court will 3 note that there's a continuing objection. 4 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 5 Honor. 6 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) You taxied out, 7 

### you said, to spot 21? 8 

### A Yes. 9 Q 

### Did your aircraft hold there for 10 

### any point in time? 11 

### A Yes. 12 Q 

### And then from there where did your 13 

### aircraft go? 14 A 

### Continued down the Bravo taxiway 15 down to the end of the runway. 16 Q 

### Do you know if you were taxiing 17 the aircraft yourself? 18 A 

### No, I wasn't taxiing the aircraft. 19 Q 

### Who was? 20 A 

### The captain. 21 Q 

### What was your function on the 22 flight at that time? NEAL R. GROSS (202} 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 313 1 A 

### Monitor. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What? 3 

### THE WITNESS: Pilot monitor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I I 

### 5 didn't hear you -- 6 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) What did you -- 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: that's why. 8 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) What did you 9 monitor? 10 A 

### Just that we were making the 11 correct taxi route. 12 Q 

### Would it make sense to you to taxi 13 to spot 23? 14 A 

### No. That's an inbound spot. 15 Q 

### I'm sorry. You say that's an 16 inbound 17 A 

### Twenty-three is an inbound spot. 18 Twenty-two would be

-- if you're going out, 19 most likelyyou'dgo out through spot 22 which 20 is, you know, right there. But I mean that 21 

### wouldn't

-- 

### yeah, that wouldn't make sense 22 

### because you would kind of back taxi to go NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANOTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOOE ISLANOAVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com314 

### 1 around the terminal and then go out. 2 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I would 3 like the record to reflect that the witness 4 pointed to 22 which is next to 23 on here. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### I'm sorry. I 

### 6 didn't hear you. 7 

### MR. SPITZER: I would like the 8 record to record that the witness has pointed 9 to spot 22 which is next to spot 23. 10 A 

### I'm not sure what

-- we taxied out 11 to spot 21. 12 Q 

### The end of the E concourse leaving 13 from El, would it make sense to take a 14 

### left-hand turn and and go go south 15 

### across the ramp where the green line 16 indicates? 17 A 

### No. 18 Q 

### Why not? 19 A 

### There's more congestion and 20 traffic that way usually from other aircraft 21 pushing back. 22 Q 

### I want you to look back at Exhibit NEAL R. GROSS (202}234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com315 

### 1 No. 3 again. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Three or four? 3 

### MR. EMERSON: No. 3, 

### and this is 4 

### Administrator's 3. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh. 6 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) You did the 7 

### tactile test for the wings on 7770. 

### Correct? 8 A 

### Correct. 9 Q 

### Does this photo represent what you 10 

### observed when you performed your test? 11 A 

### No. 12 Q 

### What did you observe? 13 A 

### A clean wing. 14 Q 

### What does a clean wing mean? 15 A 

### Meaning it didn't have any frozen 16 contaminants on it like frost, ice, snow. 17 Q 

### Did you 18 A 

### It was a dry wing, too. I mean, 19 it didn't have liquid on it either. 20 Q 

### It was dry and clean, no liquid or 21 frozen contaminants at all? 22 A 

### Correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 ¥NIW.nealrgross.com

### 316

1 Q 

### Did you feel any frozen 2 contaminants when you ran your finger across 3 4 A 

### No. 5 Q 

### -- the wing? 6 

### Would you depart an aircraft from 7 

### a runway without first getting de-icing if 8 

### this condition was on your wings? 9 A 

### No. 10 Q 

### Why not? 11 A 

### Unsafe and illegal. 12 Q 

### Yeah. 13 A 

### It's against company policy. I 14 

### mean there's a lot of reasons, just 15 Q 

### The first one you said is unsafe. 16 Do you care about your own personal safety? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### What about the safety of the 19 

### passengers onboard? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### You married, sir? 22 A 

### Yes. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 317

1 Q 

### Do you have children? 2 A 

### Three. 3 Q 

### What were the atmospheric 4 conditions on that morning when you pushed 5 

### back from the gate? 6 A 

### Dry and clear, clear sky. 7 Q 

### Were there any clouds? 8 A 

### No. 9 Q 

### The sun was up? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### What was the visibility? 12 A 

### Really good, like more than 10 

### 13 miles. 14 Q 

### Did you taxi in full sunshine? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 

### MR. EMERSON: No further 17 questions. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 19 

### MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 20 Honor. 21 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. SPITZER: NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 318

1 Q 

### Good afternoon, Mr. Burr. I'm Rob 2 Spitzer, counsel for the FAA. 3 

### During the course of your 4 

### employment at SkyWest, is it fair to say that 5 

### you've operated into the Salt Lake City 6 

### Airport numerous times? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### Approximately how many times did 9 

### you operate into the Salt Lake City airport? 10 A 

### A lot. That's going to take a 11 little bit of figuring out but

-- 12 Q 

### Just give me 

### a ballpark. 13 Thousands? Hundreds? Tens? 14 A 

### Like on a typical week, I'd say I 15 go in and out of there five or six times at 16 least. 17 Q 

### Was the week of December 7, 2011, 18 a typical week with regard to frequency going 19 through the Salt Lake City Airport? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### So it's fair to say that during 22 that week you went through the airport

-- Salt NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 l/lf\N\N.nealrgross.com319 

### 1 Lake City Airport five to seven times? 2 A 

### Yeah. 3 Q 

### And your testimony today is that 4 

### you did the

-- the preflight inspection on -- 5 

### on Flight 770 [sic] on December 7, 2011. 6 Right? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### Do you remember what time you did 9 that preflight inspection? 10 A Well, 

### it would have been in 11 

### between when we arrived and when we left. I 

### 12 mean, I think we were only on the ground about 13 40 minutes. And I remember the

-- we unloaded 14 the passengers, helped cross the seatbelts, 15 and it would have been after that time that I 16 did the inspection. 17 Q 

### So sometime maybe 10, 15 minutes 18 after arrival and another 20 minutes before 19 

### departure. Is that fair? 20 A I 

### probably would have been 21 about 20 minutes after arrival, 20 minutes 22 before departure. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 320

1 Q 

### Was there anything unusual about 2 this flight? 3 A No. 4 Q 

### Anything that sticks in your mind 5 in particular? 6 A 

### Like the FAA meeting us when we 7 got back to the gate? 8 Q 

### Just in terms of the flight 9 itself, was there anything that was unusual 10 about that flight? 11 A No. 12 Q 

### So you didn't

-- did you observe 13 Inspector Perkins looking at your aircraft? 14 A No. 15 Q 

### Did anything unusual happen when 16 the aircraft was on the ground? 17 A No. 18 Q 

### Anythingunusual happen during the 19 taxi and pushback sequence? 20 A No. 21 Q 

### Was it a congested morning at the 22 Echo terminal? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 321

1 A 

### Not for us. 2 Q 

### How about just generally, was 3 

### there a lot going on that morning at the 4 

### terminal or was it pretty much empty? 5 A I 

### would say it was about average 6 activity. There was airplanes at other gates 7 

### and stuff. 8 Q 

### We were talking about the

-- the 9 

### preflight walk-around that you did, and your 10 

### testimony is that you performeda -- a tactile 11 

### inspection of the aircraft's wings. Correct? 12 A 

### Correct. 13 Q 

### And you also did a 

### visual 14 inspection. Correct? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### Do you remember what the lighting 17 conditions were like at the time you did this 18 this preflight inspection? 19 A 

### You mean as far as the sun being 20 up? Yeah, the sun was up and it was a clear 21 sky. 22 Q 

### So when you say the sun was up, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 322

1 

### was it bright sunlight, daytime sunlight, 2 twilight sunlight? What was the overall 3 

### lighting? 4 A 

### Well, when we left St. George, it 5 was really black or dark, and as we started 6 coming the light got -- sky gets lighter and 7 

### lighter and lighter. And as you get up here 8 

### to Salt Lake, it was pretty light. And by the 9 

### time we landed in Salt Lake it was pretty 10 light. I mean -- 11 Q 

### What time, approximately, did you 12 land in Salt Lake? 13 A 

### Would have been a little bit 14 before 8:00. 15 Q 

### If I told you that it was before 16 7:20, would that sound appropriate to you? 17 A 

### Could have been, probably, yeah. 18 Q 

### How about before 7:30, would that 19 sound appropriate to you, more appropriate? 20 A 

### I guess, yeah. 21 Q 

### So your testimony is that when you 22 toucheddown, when the aircraft landed at Salt NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 323 1 Lake, it was -- it was bright daylight. Is 2 that correct? 3 A I I 

### wouldn't say bright 4 daylight, but you for sure wouldn't need a 5 flashlight if you were outsidewalkingaround. 6 Q 

### Was the sun over the horizon? 7 A 

### When we touched down it may not 8 have been up behind the mountains at that 9 point, but I believe

-- you know, if you get 10 all scientific, I believe it was over the

-- 11 over the horizon. 12 Q 

### Okay. How about when you were 13 doing the walk-around, was it

-- was the sun 14 visible in the sky at that time? 15 A 

### I believe it was. 16 Q 

### Could you indicate for me, Mr. 17 Burr, approximately where on your body the 18 aircraft trailing edge of the wing would

-- 19 would strike you at the winglet? 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, it might 21 be better if he

-- we run into the problem we 22 had earlier. We don't have-- it's not being NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 324 1 videotaped. It might be better if he

-- if 2 you ask him how tall he is and where on his 3 

### body the wing would be. I think you'll end up 4 

### with the same. 5 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) All 

### right. So 6 the 7 A 

### Where the turning edge of the wing 8 would be if I walked past it? 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 10 Q 

### (By MR. EMERSON) So, Mr. Burr, if 11 you were to walk up to the trailing edge of 12 the right wing at the point that the winglet 13 is, where on your body

-- if you could just 14 describewhere on your body that wing would 15 would strike you. 16 A 

### Probably about right here. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Where is that? 18 Tell me where on your body it is. See, here's 19 the problem. 20 

### THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: And we do this all 22 the time. If this goes up on appeal, we have NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WW'N.nealrgross.com325 

### 1 a description-- we have a transcript, and the 2 

### transcript will say, well the, wing hit me 3 

### here. Well, the personreading the transcript 4 

### doesn't no where here is. 5 

### THE WITNESS: Okay. So when I say 6 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So, first of all, 8 

### how tall are you? 9 

### THE WITNESS: I'm 5'6". 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. And 11 

### where would where would the wing 12 Counsel, the forward or the trailing edge? 13 

### MR. SPITZER: The trailing edge, 14 Your Honor. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Where would the 16 trailing edge of the right wing hit you on 17 your body if you were to walk up to a normal 18 CRJ? 19 

### THE WITNESS: Probably about 20 halfway through the torso. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. 22 

### Counsel, do you want to elaborate NEAL R. GROSS (202} 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNVV.nealrgross.com

### 326 1 on that? 2 

### MR. SPITZER: That clarifies it 3 

### for me, Your Honor. Thank you. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Wait for the next 5 question. 6 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Burr, it's 7 your testimonythat you nevernoticed frost on 8 

### the wing at any time. Correct? 9 A 

### Correct. 10 Q 

### And you did a tactile inspection 11 

### of the leading edge of the wing. Correct? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### And you did a tactile check of the 14 flaps of the wing? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### And did you also do a tactile 17 check of the top surface of the aircraft's 18 wing? 19 A 

### As far as I could reach. I can't 20 reach the whole top surface but... 21 Q 

### Far into the wing, how many feet 22 approximately, can you reach into the top of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com327

1 

### the aircraft surface, the upper wing surface? 2 A 

### Three feet, two and a half feet, 3 

### three feet. 4 Q 

### So is and when you do this 5 

### check, where do you performit from typically? 6 A 

### On the ground. 7 Q 

### With respect to the wing, do you 8 do it from the trailing edge of the wing or 9 

### the leading edge of the wing? 10 A 

### You walk around the whole 11 

### airplane. So you walk around the leading 12 edge, go out around the aileron and

-- around 13 

### the winglet and come back past the aileronand 14 

### then the flaps. 15 Q 

### So just walk me through this so I 16 

### understand. When you do this tactile check, 17 

### you have to check the leading edge of the 18 

### wing. Correct? Do you simultaneously check 19 

### the upper wing surface with your hand? 20 A 

### Yes, we -- yeah. 21 Q 

### How does that work? 22 MR. EMERSON: Objection. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com328 

### 1 Relevance. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 3 A 

### You just

-- you can touch it. I 

### 4 guess maybe I don't understand your question. 5 Q 

### So you're you're walking along 6 

### the leading edge of the wing in our 7 

### hypothetical. Okay? How do you go about 8 touchingboth the leading edge of the wing and 9 the upper wing surface at the same time? 10 

### MR. EMERSON: Again relevance. No 11 evidence that there's any contaminant on the 12 leading edge or upper surface of the forward 13 portion of the wing. 14 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, this 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 16 A 

### So when you walk past them, you 17 bring your fingers across it like this. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Like how? 19 

### THE WITNESS: Just drag your 20 fingers across it. If you're walkingpast it, 21 you drag your fingers across it and rub your 22 

### fingers on it. I guess, so you could touch NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWIN.nealrgross.com

### 329 1 the leading edge and go up onto the top and 2 

### back to the leading edge. Maybe I don't 3 understand what you're asking. 4 Q 

### So when you would say you're 5 inspecting the right wing of the aircraft. 6 

### Your do you when you do your tactile 7 inspection, do you run your hand down the 8 length of the leading edge of the wing to 9 check for frost or ice? 10 A 

### Yeah. Yeah, you -- yeah, I mean 11 you just have to inspect the whole thing. I 12 mean, you can touch it wherever. I mean, in 13 

### some parts of the wing you can't touch. I 

### 14 mean I can't

-- physically can't touch the 15 the whole wing up on the part. But everything 16 that I can touch, you know, you can touch it, 17 make sure there's not frost on it or anything 18 frozen. 19 Q 

### Okay. Mr. Burr, that's-- that's 20 

### not my question. So the question is very 21 simple. When you're doing this tactile 22 inspection and you're checking the leading NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com

### 330

1 

### edge, will you put your hand on the leading 2 edge of the aircraft wing and walk the length 3 of the wing? 4 

### MR. EMERSON: Objection. 5 

### Relevance. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 7 A 

### Yeah. 8 Q 

### So 9 A 

### So on the 200, 

### yeah, you can... 10 Q 

### Okay. So bear with me. So you're 11 

### testifying that you walk along the leading 12 

### edge of the wing and this is what you did on 13 

### the morning of December 7, 2011, 

### before you 14 

### conductedFlight 7770 

### is that you walked along 15 

### the leading edge of the wing and you felt the 16 

### entire length of the leading edge of the wing 17 

### with your hand. Is that correct? 18 A 

### No. 19 Q 

### How about the upper wing portion, 20 did you feel the entire length of aircraft's 21 

### wing with your hand? 22 A 

### So are you asking if I drug my NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 331 1 hand all the way across the upper surface of 2 the wing? No. 3 Q 

### Yes, that's what I'm asking. And 4 I need a verbal answer. 5 A 

### I said, "No." 6 Q 

### How much of the wing did you run 7 your hand across? 8 A 

### I'd say the majority of

-- of the 9 wing as you walk past it. I mean, it's not 10 not the full 200 and whatever square feet of 11 

### the wing. But, you know, as you're walking 12 past the area, you can touch it, helps you 13 detect if there's any frozen stuff on the 14 wing. 15 Q 

### And with the flaps, did you 16 inspect the entire surface of the flap as you 17 walked along it on the morning of December 7, 18 2011? 19 A 

### Yeah. Because you can see the

-- 20 every part -- you know, when the flaps are 21 retracted, yeah, you can walk across there and 22 drag your finger across it. I mean -- so did NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 332

1 

### I touch every square inch of the flap? No. 2 But, you know, you can drag your finger across 3 it and see 4 Q 

### So it's fair to say that you did 5 

### touch the entire length of the flap, though. 6 

### Correct? 7 A 

### Yeah. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Did you 9 

### say didn't or did touch? 10 

### MR. SPITZER: Did. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Okay. 12 

### Thank you. 13 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) So at your 14 layover in Salt Lake City on the morning of 15 December 7, 2011, the preflight walk-around 16 

### that you conducted, it wasn't the only time 17 

### that you left the aircraft. Correct? 18 A 

### Correct. 19 Q 

### You also left the aircraft to make 20 

### sure that the fuel door was closed. Correct? 21 A 

### Correct. 22 Q 

### There are no other times that you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 IJI/W\N.nealrgross.com333 

### 1 left the aircraft other than those two times. 2 Correct? 3 A 

### Yeah, I'd say yeah. 4 Q 

### You testified earlier that you 5 were the pilot monitoring during the taxi 6 

### portion of this flight. Correct? 7 A 

### Correct. 8 Q 

### Were you the pilot flying during 9 the actual flight? 10 A 

### I don't remember. I -- I 

### 11 Q 

### It's fair to say that you're 12 always the pilot monitoring as the first 13 officer on the CRJ under SkyWest's operations 14 

### during taxi. Correct? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### Because there's no tiller that's 17 

### in the first officer's station. Correct? 18 A 

### Correct. 19 Q 

### But your testimony now is that you 20 can't remember whether you were the pilot 21 flying during the actual flight. Correct? 22 A 

### Yeah, I don't remember if it was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com

### 334

1 

### my leg to fly or his leg. 2 Q 

### And the inbound flight, you 3 wouldn't be able to remember that either. 4 

### Correct? 5 A 

### Yeah, I don't remember who flew 6 

### which leg. 7 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Just a few more 8 

### questions, Mr. Burr. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't want 10 

### anybody to panic, but we've got six minutes 11 

### MR. SPITZER: I'll wrap it up. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: and that I can 13 

### tell. Just

-- every time every time you 14 glance at the clock, Mr. Spitzer, I remind 15 myself that I've been doing the same thing all 16 day. What I'd like to do is take it down, but 17 with my luck somebody would report it stolen 18 and I get blamed for it so... 19 

### MR. SPITZER: Yeah, that would 20 probably get you arrested. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, Counsel. 22 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Burr, with NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 335

1 

### respect to the fuel panel, can you state 2 approximately where on your body the fuel 3 access panel strikes? 4 A 

### A little bit above where the 5 

### trailing edge would have

-- would have been, 6 

### so probably two-thirds of the way through my 7 

### torso. 8 Q 

### Closer to your neck? 9 A 

### Yeah. 10 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I have 11 

### no further questions for this witness. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 13 Emerson, can you finish redirect in five 14 minutes? 15 

### MR. EMERSON: I can. And is 4:30 16 a hard time, Your Honor? Can we go 10 minutes 17 past? The reason I ask is I've got a pilot 18 out here who I believe is really quick, not an 19 operator, but just a percipient witness. And 20 I'd like to get him back to the operation. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, here's 22 here's the problem. It is fairly hard. I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 336 1 don't have any objection, if Mr. Spitzer 2 

### doesn't, if can this witness be available 3 tomorrow first thing? 4 

### MR. EMERSON: I don't know yet. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What's your flight 6 

### schedule tomorrow, sir? Are you working 7 tomorrow? 8 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What time? 10 

### THE WITNESS: I believe about 11 10:00. 12 MR. EMERSON: I'd just as soon be 13 done with all the pilots today, so it doesn't 14 help to interrupt if we can't go past 4:30, 15 that's hard, then let's just finish redirect. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean, I hate to 17 do that. But, you know, I'm a guest-- we are 18 guests in their courtroom, and the last thing 19 I want to do is get our hosts upset. 20 

### MR. EMERSON: Understood. Nobody 21 wants an audit. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Not another one. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com337 1 What I would encourage the two of you, Mr. 2 Spitzer, you and Mr. Anderson

-- I don't mind 3 taking witnesses out of sequence. It not 4 being a jury trial it's easy to do. And if 5 if you want to work with this

-- this pilot in 6 terms of the schedule tomorrow, that's fine 7 with me. We can put him on first, last, 8 middle. I don't care. I'll work with you on 9 that. 10 MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Your 11 Honor. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. You've got 13 four minutes. 14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. EMERSON: 16 Q Mr. Burr, you said that this 17 flight wasn't usual because the FAA showed up 18 at the end of it 19 A Yes. 20 Q

-- is that right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did you have a conversation with NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com338 

### 1 somebody from the FAA? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### Who did you have a conversation 4 

### with? 5 A 

### Aaron Perkins, Ben Blauer, and I 6 

### don't remember the other guy's name, but he 7 

### didn't say too much. 8 Q 

### Mr. Perkins in the courtroom 9 

### today? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### You recognize him? 12 

### What was -- 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Excuse 14 

### me. 15 A 

### Yes, yes. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Thank 17 you. 18 Q 

### (By MR. SPITZER) What did you 19 discuss with Mr. Perkins? 20 A 

### When I came up on the airplane? 21 Q 

### Yes. 22 A 

### They said that we took off with NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WofNol.nealrgross.com339 

### 1 frozen contaminants on the wing. 2 Q 

### Let me set some time. You said 3 

### when they came up on the airplane. You flew 4 to St. George

-- 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### -- turned around and came back. 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### So about what time of day did this 9 meeting take place? 10 A 

### Probably about 11:00, 10:30, 11 11:00. 12 Q 

### What did you discuss with Mr. 13 Perkins? 14 A 

### Well, he had a cell phone or maybe 15 

### an iPod [verbatim] , but had a picture on it, 16 

### and he said this is the picture of your wing 17 

### and with frozen contaminants on it. 18 Q 

### Did you view that picture? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Would you look at Exhibit 3? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### Does Exhibit 3 represent the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com340

1 

### picture that he showed you on his cell phone? 2 A 

### No. 3 Q 

### It's not the same picture? 4 A 

### It's not the same picture. 5 Q 

### How is it different? 6 A 

### Because the picture he showed us 7 

### was so close to the wing you couldn't tell 8 

### what part of the wing it was. So when we 9 

### finished our conversation and the FAA hopped 10 off the airplane, I hopped off and asked Mr. 11 

### Perkins if he could show me what part of the 12 

### wing he took the picture from, and he said 13 

### yes. So we walked around to the right side of 14 the wing behind the right wing, about the 15 

### midpart of the wing, you know, from the root 16 to the winglet. And he reached over and he 17 was reachingup forward, quite a ways forward, 18 and he was saying this panel and this panel 19 and this panel, yeah, those three panels, 20 that's where I took the picture from right up 21 

### here. 22 Q 

### Had you inspected those panels NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 ww-N.nealrgross.com

### 341 1 prior to departure? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### Was there any frozen contaminant 4 on those panels that he indicated to you? 5 A No. 6 Q 

### You said there was a 40-minute 7 turn before 7770 departed

-- 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### and it departed roughly 7:50 10 a.m.? 11 A I 

### couldn't remember when it 12 departed, but, yeah, probably if that's-- I'm 13 sure there's ACARS and stuff showing when it 14 when it departed. 15 Q 

### There is. So if roughly 7:50, a 16 40-minute turn, then you would have landed in 17 Salt Lake roughly 7:10 in the morning? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### On your roll and climb out of Salt 20 Lake City did you notice any degraded 21 performance ln the aircraft? 22 A No. NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com342

1 Q 

### What would you have been 2 monitoring during takeoff? 3 A 

### For like a degraded airspeed or, 4 

### you know, just for a stall and making sure 5 

### it's climbing and the airspeedparameters are 6 

### normal. 7 Q 

### Does the aircraft have computer 8 

### and electronic systems to alert you if the 9 

### aircraft is suffering from any sort of 10 

### degraded performance? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### If you're not rolling out at the 13 

### anticipated speed, is there an indicator? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q If 

### your climb is not as 16 anticipated, does that also come with an 17 

### with an indicator for you? 18 A 

### Well, not a direct one saying 19 

### you're not climbing what you should be 20 

### climbing. But, yeah, you can see it on the 21 

### screen if you're not climbing what a normal 22 

### climb would be. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WINW.nealrgross.com

### 343

1 Q 

### One of the two of the pilots 2 keeping track of your rate of accent coming 3 out? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### Your pitch? Are you keeping track 6 of the pitch of the aircraft? 7 A 

### Pitch and climb rate, feet per 8 minute. 9 Q 

### The airplane rolls one way or the 10 other unexpectedly would you detect that on 11 the 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### -- instruments? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### So the instruments didn 1

### t tell you 16 that there was any degraded performance. 17 Could you feel it as a pilot if the airplane 18 wasn 1

### t 19 A 

### Yes. 20 

### MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 21 Honor. This is outside the scope of my cross. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: That 1

### s true. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com344 

### 1 Sustained. 2 

### MR. EMERSON: I'm just trying to 3 get to 4:30. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It's 4:31. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: Okay. No further 6 questions. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not going to 8 box either one of you and the recorder. 9 

### Sir, I'm going to instruct you. 10 You're not to discuss your testimony with 11 anybody prior to the conclusion of this 12 hearing. If there's need to recall this 13 

### witness, will you let me know? And we'll 14 accommodate his schedule. 15 

### MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I have 16 three questions on redirect

-- recross. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The problem I've 18 got is it's 4:31 going on 4:32. 19 

### MR. SPITZER: I can 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: How quick are -- 21 how quick are your questions? 22 

### MR. SPITZER: I can do it in under NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com345 

### 1 two minutes, probably less than two minutes. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, if you go 3 more than two minutes, I'm going to cut you 4 off. 5 

### MR. SPITZER: Okay, your Honor. 6 

### RECROSS-EXAMINATION 7 

### BY MR. SPITZER: 8 Q 

### Mr. Burr, you testifiedjust right 9 now that you observed this picture and it was 10 such a zoomed-in picture you couldn't tell 11 which part of the wing it was. Correct? 12 A 

### This picture? No, I don't 13 didn't see this picture on the cell phone. 14 Q 

### You observed you observed a 15 picture that was so zoomed in you couldn't 16 tell which part of the wing it was. Correct? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### And you looked at this picture on 19 

### Inspector Perkins' iPhone. Correct? 20 A 

### I believe what was an iPhone. 21 Q 

### When you looked at the picture, 22 was it possible that it had been zoomed in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com346 

### 1 with the

-- the blowup feature on the iPhone? 2 A I 

### don't think so because I 

### 3 remember holding it and trying to scroll back 4 and forth like that to see more of the wing. 5 Q 

### Did you zoom all the way out on 6 this picture? 7 A 

### I couldn't get the picture to move 8 at all. I mean, it looked to me like it was 9 all the way zoomed out, and that's the reason 10 I had him show me on the wing where it was on 11 the wing he took a picture from. 12 MR. SPITZER: Thank you. 13 

### Your Honor, no further questions. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Again, I'm going 15 to assume for argument's sake that this 16 witness may be subject to recall. 17 So I'm going to instruct you not 18 to discuss your testimony with anybody prior 19 

### to the conclusion of the hearing. You're 20 

### excused today. You can't remain in the 21 courtroom if we're going to do anything. 22 That way, Counsel, if the two of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### 347 1 you reflect and either one of you needs to 2 recall this witness, we'll do it that way. 3 

### Sorry for the constraints of time, but that's 4 

### just the way things work. 5 

### We will go off the record. We 6 

### will reconvene at 0900 

### tomorrow. And, again, 7 

### if either of you -- sir, you can step down. 8 Mr. 

### Spitzer, Mr. 

### Emerson, if 9 either of you have constraints with any of 10 

### your witnesses, talk with each other. 11 Whatever schedule you want to work out with 12 your witnesses, the Court will take people out 13 

### of sequence, out of order. I don't care. 14 That's one of the advantages of being a 15 judge-only trial. 16 

### Diane, we'll go off the record. 17 

### (Whereupon, the proceedings 18 adjourned at 4.34 p.m.) 19 20 

### 21 22 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com------------ A A-A-R-0-N22:13 A-C-A-R-S 132:15 A&P 181:4 a.m I:I04:2 58:2

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### Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 348 I aiming 103:10**~** air3:9 19:2224:12 '1

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____9

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 384385 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Skywest Airlines

Before: DOT/FAA

Date: 02-10-14

Place: Salt Lake City, UT

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202)234-4433 Court Reporter

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANOTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com