U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

SKYWEST AIRLINES 

BEFORE: 

FAA DOCKET NO. 

2012NM0650025 

FDMS NO. 

FAA-2013-0292 

Monday 

February 10, 2014 

9:00 a.m. 

U.S. Tax Court 

125 South State Street 

Room 5223 

Salt Lake City, Utah 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN 

Administrative Judge 

RECEIVED 

MAR 0 5 2014 

HEARING DOCKET 

ORIGINAl 

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APPEARANCES 

FOR THE FAA: 

ROBERT SPITZER, ESQ. 

Office of Regional Counsel 

Northwest Mountain Region, ANM-7 

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 

1601 Lind Avenue, S.W. 

Renton, Washington 98057 

425.227.1417 

FOR SKYWEST AIRLINES: 

TODD C. EMERSON, ESQ. 

Director, Government and Legal Affairs 

SKYWEST AIRLINES, INC. 

444 South River Road 

St. George, Utah 84790 

435.634.3530 

ternerson®skywest.corn 

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CONTENTS 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

AARON PERKINS 23 

THOMAS H. BOND 180 

Voir Dire on page 190 

DAVID A. KATSILAS 248 

THOMAS GIBBS 256 

DENNIS M. BURR 297 

EXHIBITS 

AGENCY NO. 

70 

273 

318 

166 

176 

293 

337 

1 SkyWest Air Carrier Certificate, 

A001 Operations Specifications 

173 

345 

RECD 

and DOSS Operations Specs . 44 

2 Operations Specification A023 . 47 

3 Photograph of Frost on Wing . 52 

4A Salt Lake City International Airport 

Diagram, unmarked . 64 

4B Salt Lake City International Airport 

Diagram, marked . 64 

5 National Climatic Data Center 

6 

7 

9 

Weather Records . 

ACARS Recorded Times 

Dispatch Release 

Photograph of N426SW 

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49 

50 

53 

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1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

2 (9:00a.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the case 

4 of Department of Transportation/SkyWest 

5 Airlines, Docket No. 2013-292. 

6 Counsel, identify yourself for the 

7 record, please. 

8 MR. SPITZER: Good morning, Your 

9 Honor. Robert Spitzer for the Administrator. 

10 MR. EMERSON: Todd Emerson for 

11 SkyWest Airlines. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 

13 , Emerson, does it look like the bulk of the 

14 other cases are going to get resolved? 

15 MR. EMERSON: It does, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And, Mr. 

17 Spitzer, this is the only case you've got on 

18 the lengthy docket I had. Is that right? 

19 MR. SPITZER: That 1 s correct, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let me --

22 just a few preliminary matters. I normally--

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1 As Mr. Emerson knows, I normally take a break 

2 we're not going to use that clock. 

3 MR. EMERSON: It's already 

4 lunchtime. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: I threatened to 

6 buy a large box of batteries and carry them 

7 with me because invariably the batteries have 

8 been removed. 

9 I normally take a break about 

10 10:30. We'll probably break about for 

11 lunch sometime around 12:00. What I'll try to 

12 do is break in such a way that we don't quit 

13 in the middle of a witness. We generally take 

14 another break about 2:30, and then we'll --

15 we're going to go off the record at 4:30. You 

16 need to be out of the courthouse by 5:00. 

17 The reason is most courtrooms 

18 throughout the country -- the CSOs, courtroom 

19 security officers, go on overtime at 5:00, and 

20 nobody has got the budget to pay that, least 

21 of all the department. So that's our time 

22 constraints. I've got the courtroom through 

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1 Wednesday and actually got it next week, so if 

2 the case doesn't get resolved today we've got 

3 plenty of time in which to hear it. 

4 One of the things I'm going to ask 

5 you to do is any exhibits-- I don't care what 

6 methodology you use to mark the exhibits as 

7 long as you don't use the same -- you know, 

8 you can't both use A, you can't both use ones. 

9 But other than that I really don't care. And 

10 I don't care whether you pre-submit or submit 

11 as you go along. 

12 Remember that everything that we 

13 do goes on the record, goes on the Internet. 

14 If we get to a point where there's some 

15 information that the two of you either 

16 individually or collectively don't believe 

17 should be on the record, let me know. We'll 

18 go off the record into a closed session. 

19 We'll do that in a closed session, and then 

20 we'll go back on on the open record. 

21 Please review all of the exhibits. 

22 I don't want any Social Security numbers, 

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1 dates of birth, home addresses, home phone 

2 numbers, cell phone numbers or anything like 

3 that because your exhibits go into 

4 regulations. gov, which is an open Internet 

5 publicly accessible website. So it's 

6 especially true for the Agency, but it's also 

7 true for you know, we we deal with 

8 transportation matters. None of this has any 

9 business being on the public record. 

10 Having said that, I need to let 

11 counsel know that my chief judge and I are at 

12 odds. I have sealed the record, and he's 

13 taken it upon himself unilaterally to 

14 disseminate the information to staff and 

15 others in the office contrary to very specific 

16 language ln the court order and my 

17 instructions to staff. So I haven't been able 

18 to figure out how to stop that. I'm not going 

19 to bore you with my feelings on the matter. 

20 But I need to warn you that he's unilaterally 

21 disseminated it to and the bulk of it is to 

22 internists who are nothing more than law 

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1 students. Let's see. I can' t think of 

2 anything else. 

3 Mr. Emerson, you've heard my 

4 statements. Have I forgotten anything? 

5 MR. EMERSON: No, sir. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But my 

7 biggest concern is that we keep confidential 

8 information out of the record. And, you know, 

9 we may as we go along come in something that 

10 one or both of you may want to keep out of the 

11 record, so let's -- let's make sure that we do 

12 that. 

13 Mr. Spitzer, you want to make an 

14 opening statement. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 

16 But before I do that I would like to clear up 

17 two preliminary matters. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

19 MR. SPITZER: To begin with the 

20 Administrator would like to request a 

21 sequestrationorder for fact witnesses in this 

22 case except --

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Any 

2 objection, Mr. Emerson? 

3 MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Every time I turn 

5 around you guys have got another airplane ln 

6 an airport that I've flown into. 

7 Sequestration means that all the 

8 witnesses are going to -- ask you to step out 

9 of the courtroom. The Respondent and the 

10 Agency are both permitted one expert to remain 

11 at the table with them; in other words, that 

12 that person may testify, they may not 

13 testify. They're considered an expert or 

14 consulting witness. They can stay in. All 

15 other potential witnesses are going to be 

16 excused from the courtroom while testimony is 

17 being taken. 

18 From this point on none of the 

19 witnesses should discuss their current, past, 

20 or future testimony with any other witness. 

21 So I'm sure the attorneys have all -- Counsel, 

22 you will now -- give Counsel a minute or two 

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1 to refresh their memory. 

2 When you're called in, you'll 

3 testify. I can't remember where the witness 

4 stand is over there. I've traveled all 

5 over the country and I've told the CSO when I 

6 came in I can't remember what floor I'm 

7 supposed to go on half the time. 

8 You' 11 testify. You' 11 be 

9 admonished again not to discuss your testimony 

10 and you'll be excused. If you have any 

11 question about whether you can discuss 

12 anything, talk with your attorney. These are 

13 two excellent trial attorneys. They're 

14 skilled in trial practice, and they know what 

15 the rules of conduct are. 

16 So why don't we take a -- now, Mr. 

17 Emerson, I see you've got a binder. 

18 I don't know whether you've got a 

19 binder now, Mr. Spitzer. But if you want to 

20 take a minute to approach and give those to 

21 the Court, that's fine. If you want to do it 

22 as you go along, that's fine. We'll leave it 

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1 up here. Let's take a minute. 

2 We're going to go off the record 

3 for just a couple minutes, allow the attorneys 

4 to talk with their potential witnesses. I 

5 don't think there's a cafeteria in the 

6 building, so I'm going to leave it to the two 

7 of you to figure out where you're going to 

8 send the witnesses. There's always Harmons 

9 across the street that's got coffee. 

10 MR. EMERSON: There's two waiting 

11 rooms across the hall --

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

13 MR. EMERSON: -- or directly out 

14 this door that the witness can 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

16 MR. EMERSON: can be handy. 

17 And then, yes, there's, I think, a snack bar 

18 here in the building, but not food. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Actually I was --

20 guy on the elevator told me we don't have that 

21 anymore. I don't know if the -- they used to, 

22 didn't they --

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1 MR. EMERSON: That's right. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: down in the 

3 basement? 

4 MR. EMERSON: Yeah. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: But Harmons is 

6 fun. It's one of those places you can't get 

7 out. The coffee shop is on the second floor 

8 of Harmons. 

9 All right. We're going to have 

10 the record for just a couple of minutes. As 

11 soon as Counsel is ready, we'll proceed. 

12 We're off the record. 

13 (Brief pause.) 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: One other thing 

15 I'd like to do this is for the court 

16 reporter. If we get to any point in the 

17 hearing where the court reporter is unsure 

18 about the spelling of something, just raise 

19 your hand. That's a cue to Counsel to stop 

20 conveniently thereto and spell whatever it is 

21 you're talking about. She probably does cases 

22 for every agency you've ever heard of. 

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1 Sometimes we use acronyms that we're used to 

2 and she may -- this way at midnight tonight 

3 she's not like what in the heck were they 

4 saying at 9:30 this afternoon [verbatim]. 

5 And just to reiterate that one 

6 point that I made. You know, while I -- while 

7 I can personally guarantee the confidentiality 

8 of material we put into the record. I can't 

9 guarantee that the chief judge is not going to 

10 unilaterally disseminate it, and invite you to 

11 take whatever action you want to on that 

12 point. 

13 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, since 

14 typically you'd ask the witness to give their 

15 address and establish where they're from 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Business. 

17 MR. EMERSON: it's okay to 

18 dispense with that? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, yeah. 

20 Typically as attorneys, you know, it's 

21 preliminary, gets the witness relaxed. I'd 

22 encourage you to use the business address or 

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1 skip it, I mean, period. If we're doing 

2 domestic work or doing a lot of other stuff, 

3 it's important. I think in our cases I'd 

4 encourage them to use business phone numbers, 

5 business addresses if that's necessary or skip 

6 it if you want to. You know, it's a 

7 preliminary introductory matter I think in our 

8 cases. You know, use your judgment on that. 

9 The case is not going to turn on whether I've 

10 got the home phone number of a witness. 

11 Mr. Spitzer? 

12 MR. EMERSON: Before again, Your 

13 Honor --

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 

15 MR. EMERSON: -- so to designate 

16 who's in the courtroom for SkyWest now, Dr. 

17 Kevin Perry, who is our expert consultant 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

19 MR. EMERSON: -- and is expected 

20 to testify and Shane Losee, who is a director 

21 of flight operations at SkyWest Airlines. 

22 He's here as a company representative. I 

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1 don't expect him to testify, but he may be 

2 called upon for rebuttal. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 

4 Spitzer, do you have any objection to either 

5 one of those? 

6 MR. SPITZER: No objection, Your 

7 Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

9 Mr. Spitzer? 

10 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

11 Honor. 

12 One additional preliminary matter, 

13 the Administrator has a witness that may be 

14 called for rebuttal purposes depending on the 

15 testimony of the Respondent's expert. This 

16 witness was not able to come to the location 

17 here today, although he is available via 

18 telephone today after 3:30. I realize this is 

19 an unusual request having a witness testify 

20 via telephone, but unfortunately his schedule 

21 is exceedinglybusy and he's very difficult to 

22 get ahold of. I would like to ask the Court's 

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1 leave to -- to interrogate this witness via 

2 telephone. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's 

4 let's address that when we get to it. 

5 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. I might 

8 mention if memory serves me correctly, your 

9 general counsel for the FAA was a friend of a 

10 friend of mine, William Suter who just retired 

11 as a clerk of the United States Supreme Court. 

12 So that and five bucks will get you a cup of 

13 coffee at Starbuck's. 

14 Any other matters? 

15 MR. SPITZER: Nothing further. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Of course, the 

17 problem with having him testify by phone is I 

18 don't have a clue how we're going to do it, 

19 but let's deal with that when we get to it. 

20 Okay. Opening? 

21 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

22 Honor. 

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1 Your Honor, this case came about 

2 from events that happened on December 7, 2011. 

3 Aaron Perkins, the FAA's aviation safety 

4 inspector in Salt Lake City for the SkyWest 

5 CMO, certificate management office, was 

6 assigned to investigate the de-icing 

7 procedures that SkyWest was using at the Salt 

8 Lake City airport. 

9 He arrived at the airport early in 

10 the morning and conducted what he believed 

11 would be a normal observation of SkyWest's 

12 de-icing process. He observed two SkyWest 

13 aircraft go through the de- icing process that 

14 SkyWest had in place at Salt Lake City and 

15 didn't observe anything out of the ordinary. 

16 The day was -- was cold and clear. 

17 TemperaturE was around minus eight or minus 

18 seven, depending on the time of the day. 

19 There was no precipitation falling, and the--

20 the skies were clear. After having observed 

21 the first two aircraft, Inspector Perkins 

22 drove his car over to where November 4260 

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1 Whiskey, a SkyWest CRJ200, was preparing to 

2 depart. This was parked over at the gate. 

3 And he could tell from when he 

4 showed up that the aircraft was getting ready 

5 to leave. He noticed immediately that the 

6 aircraft's wings had a thin layer of frost on 

7 them. He got out of the car and ran his 

8 fingers along the frost and also took a 

9 photograph of this frost. 

10 And before we go any further, it's 

11 important to point out that the frost 

12 you'll see pictures of it. You' 11 hear 

13 testimony that it's approximately the 

14 thickness of a piece of paper, maybe a 1 i ttle 

15 thicker. But this poses a real risk to 

16 aviation safety. The frost, it appears 

17 benign. It's not a particularly thick layer, 

18 but that small amount of frost, especially on 

19 the upper wing surface of a CRJ, can 

20 dramatically affect the aircraft's takeoff 

21 performance and flying performance. This is 

22 borne out by the fact that there have been two 

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1 major accidents involving a CRJ with -- that 

2 were attributed to frost being on the upper 

3 wing surface. 

4 The aircraft is particularly 

5 susceptible to this, as you'll hear our expert 

6 testify, because it doesn't have slats. Like 

7 a Boeing 737 wing, for example, has devices 

8 that extend the wing and allow it to create 

9 more lift when the aircraft is taking off. But 

10 the CRJ isn't equipped with those. So the 

11 smallest bit of roughness on the wing surface 

12 can cause a dramatic reduction in performance 

13 which can ultimately lead to the aircraft 

14 taking off in a much longer distance or -- or 

15 rolling over or stalling after departure. 

16 In this case obviously none of 

17 that happened which is why we're all sitting 

18 here today. But the SkyWest Salt Lake City 

19 Airport is an extremely long runway and, you 

20 know, not every time something bad happens. 

21 But it still is a tremendous reduction in the 

22 amount of safety that the FAA expects of air 

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1 carriers. 

2 You're going to hear testimony 

3 that Aaron Perkins assumed that this aircraft 

4 was going to go de-ice. He believed that this 

5 was obvious enough that -- that he didn't need 

6 to raise it to anybody. And you're going to 

7 hear him testify that he followed to what he 

8 believed would be the de-icing pad, but the 

9 aircraft took off before -- before it was 

10 de-iced and before he could say anything. 

11 Your Honor, the Administratcx's 

12 case is a very straightforward case. We've 

13 alleged ops specs violation that you'll hear 

14 testimony about and also that SkyWest 

15 ultimately departed the aircraft with frost on 

16 the wings. You'll hear testimony from our 

17 expert, Tom Bond, who is the aviation's chief 

18 scientist-- the FAA's chief scientist as it 

19 concerns icing and its effect on aircraft. 

20 And you'll also hear testimony from Aaron 

21 Perkins, the inspector who observed this 

22 violation and who has a good amount of 

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1 experience in the CRJ himself. 

2 Thank you, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, 

4 sounds like deja vu, doesn't it? Weren't we 

5 here a couple of years ago on a de-icing case 

6 out there? 

7 MR. EMERSON: We were. A little 

8 bit different. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 

10 MR. EMERSON: It was how the fluid 

11 was applied, not whether it was applied. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: I learned more 

13 about de-icing than I wanted to know. 

14 MR. EMERSON: If I may, I'll defer 

15 to the beginning of SkyWest 's case to make my 

16 opening statement. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Okay. 

18 Fine. 

19 Any other preliminary matters? 

20 MR. SPITZER: Nothing else from 

21 the Administrator, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Call your 

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1 first witness. 

2 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the 

3 Administrator calls Inspector Aaron Perkins. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I learned so much 

5 that I could bore my wife to death while we 1 re 

6 sitting there waiting for pushback. 

7 Stand and raise right hand. Over 

8 here. 

9 (Witness sworn.) 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

11 Please spell your first and last names. 

12 THE WITNESS: First name is Aaron, 

13 A-A-R-0-N. Last name is Perkins, 

14 P-E-R-K-I-N-S. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

16 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 And just in the nature of excusing 

19 my odd conduct, the podium right here blocks 

20 my view of the witness stand so if you notice 

21 me 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don 1 t you come 

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1 up to the podium, and then Mr. Emerson can 

2 read your notes. 

3 MR. SPITZER: More for the sake of 

4 cross-examination, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Certainly. 

6 AARON PERKINS, 

7 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

8 was examined and testified as follows: 

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

10 BY MR. SPITZER: 

11 Q Mr. Perkins, what's your current 

12 occupation? 

13 A I'm an aviation safety inspector 

14 for the FAA. 

15 Q And how long have you held that 

16 position for? 

17 A It will be three years this month. 

18 Q Prior to working for the FAA what 

19 were you employed as? 

20 A I was a pilot. 

21 Q On -- let's start with your first 

22 employment as an -- as an airline pilot or any 

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1 type of pilot. Where were you first employed? 

2 A My first job as an airline pilot 

3 was with Scenic Airlines. I was a first 

4 officer on a Twin Otter aircraft. I was based 

5 out of Las Vegas. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: What was the 

7 airline? 

8 THE WITNESS: Scenic, Scenic 

9 Airlines. 

10 A I was employed there August of 

11 2003 until March of 2004. And following that 

12 I was hired by Air Wisconsin Airlines, started 

13 in March of 2 0 04. I flew both BAe14 6 jet and 

14 also the CRJ200 until August of 2008. 

15 Q And after Air Wisconsin where were 

16 you employed? 

17 A After Air Wisconsin I got a job 

18 with a company called Arik Air. I was based 

19 in Nigeria. And I spent two years in West 

20 Africa flying the CRJ900. 

21 Q And after Arik Air where were --

22 where were you employed? 

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1 A After Arik Air I flew for a 

2 company called ACAS. I was a -- the captain 

3 on a corporate CJ200 based out of Tripoli, 

4 Lybia, with operations in and out of Europe 

5 and throughout Africa. And that was October 

6 2010 to January of 2011. 

7 Q Inspector Perkins, do you hold any 

8 FAA pilot certificates? 

9 A Yes. I hold an airline transport 

10 pilot certificate. 

11 Q Do you have any type ratings on 

12 that pilot certificate? 

13 A I do. I have a CL65 type rating 

14 which is -- is for the CRJ aircraft. 

15 Q And approximately how many hours 

16 of flight experience do you have? 

17 A I have just over 7,000 hours 

18 total. 

19 Q And of those 7,000 hours, 

20 approximately how many are in CRJ aircraft? 

21 A Just over 3,000 hours. 

22 Q Now, Inspector Perkins, you said 

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1 that you were hired by the FAA approximately 

2 three years ago. Did you receive any training 

3 from the FAA when you -- when you got hired? 

4 A Yes, a series of training courses 

5 I attended in the summer of 2011 in Oklahoma 

6 City at the academy. I also received training 

7 locally at the office, on-the-job training for 

8 specific tasks that are required for 

9 operations inspectors. 

10 Q And, Inspector Perkins, have you 

11 received any training from the FAA on icing? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q What training have you received? 

14 A I've received-- there is an eLMS 

15 course, an Internet course that I did 

16 complete. And there's also -- one of the 

17 elements of the OJT is to conduct a de-ice 

18 inspection, and I completed that, levels one, 

19 two, and three. 

20 Q Inspector Perkins, I'd 1 ike to 

21 take your attention now to December 7, 2011. 

22 Where were you on December 7, 2011? 

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1 A The day started at the office. I 

2 was preparing for a de-ice inspection at Salt 

3 Lake City international airport. And after my 

4 preparation was complete I went to the airport 

5 for an inspection. 

6 Q What time, approximately, did you 

7 arrive at at the airport on December 11 --

8 or December 7, 2011? 

9 A I would estimate I arrived 

10 somewhere just after 7:00. 

11 Q Can you describe generally the 

12 weather conditions on the morning of December 

13 7, 2011? 

14 A Yeah. It was a clear, cold 

15 morning, light winds. 

16 Q When you were at the airport, what 

17 did you do after arriving? 

18 A I -- the first thing I did is I 

19 proceeded to the de-ice location where 

20 airplanes were going through the de-ice 

21 process. And I was in my government car and 

22 I positioned it in a location where I could 

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1 observe the de-icing procedures. 

2 Q How many de-icing procedures did 

3 you observe? 

4 A That morning I observed two 

5 SkyWest CRJ aircraft come through for the 

6 de-icing process. 

7 Q What, if any, type of ice were 

8 they were they removing, if you know? 

9 A On a morning like that I would 

10 presume that it would only be removing frost. 

11 Q But you did not observe personally 

12 the frost on those aircrafts' wings? 

13 A No. 

14 Q After observing these two aircraft 

15 go through the de-ice process, what happened 

16 next? 

17 A I was started to -- thinking 

18 about wrapping up my day. Before I did that 

19 I drove along the terminal to see if there was 

20 any other SkyWest aircraft getting ready for 

21 departure, and that's when I noticed a SkyWest 

22 aircraft at gate Echo 1 getting ready to load 

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1 up and -- and push back for -- for a takeoff. 

2 Q Approximately what time did you 

3 first observe this aircraft at Echo 1? 

4 A I arrived at that airplane at 

5 about 7:41 in the morning. 

6 Q And did you notice anything about 

7 the aircraft when you arrived at the gate at 

8 E1? 

9 A Yes. I -- I parked my car behind 

10 the tail of the airplane, and I approached the 

11 left wing of that aircraft, and I only walked 

12 maybe 10 feet or so from the car. And from 

13 that point it was very obvious there was frost 

14 on the left wing, in which I got back in my 

15 car to move it so I wouldn't interfere with 

16 the pushback operation. 

17 Q While you were standing at the 

18 aircraft or standing behind the aircraft, did 

19 you take any photographs of this frost? 

20 A No. 

21 Q So after you got back in the car, 

22 what happened next? 

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1 A I moved the car around to the west 

2 side of the airplane, and I -- I wanted to 

3 check the right wing to see if it looked the 

4 same as the left wing, so I did that. I --

5 after I moved the car, I got out of the car, 

6 approached the right wing to do an inspection, 

7 and at that time is when I took the 

8 photograph. 

9 Q The -- you said earlier that you 

10 could tell the aircraft was getting ready to 

11 to push back. How could you tell that? 

12 A The boarding -- the main boarding 

13 door was already closed. I believe the beacon 

14 was on. The bags were -- were being -- just 

15 finishing up the loading process in the cargo 

16 department. So all the signs were there that 

17 they were getting close to pushback. 

18 Q So through your training as a CRJ 

19 captain and also with the FAA, have you been 

20 instructed on how to detect ice on aircraft 

21 wings? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q And what -- what is the detection 

2 process as you understand it? 

3 A The -- the detect ion process, it's 

4 it's really twofold. You're trained on 

5 what -- on how to spot frozen contamination, 

6 so that's the training would include 

7 looking at pictures of what contamination 

8 looks like on an aircraft wlng, and the other 

9 training would be to touch it, do a tactile 

10 inspection to verify the presence. 

11 Q What is your understanding of what 

12 the tactile inspection for the CRJ involves? 

13 A It involves running your hand on 

14 on the wing or other critical surfaces. 

15 And typically it's for -- the tactile check 

16 itself was typically for contamination that's 

17 difficult to see like clear ice. As you run 

18 your hand across the wing, if you don't feel 

19 rivet heads, that would be an indication that 

20 there is some sort of contamination on the 

21 wing. 

22 Q Inspector Perkins, when you say 

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1 you run your hand on the wing, which parts of 

2 the wing specifically are you required to run 

3 your hands over? 

4 A I suppose that it would vary from 

5 airline to airline. But in the case of 

6 SkyWest their manual says that you should do 

7 a tactile inspection on the wing leading edge, 

8 the wing upper surface, and the wing rear 

9 surface. 

10 Q And when you looked at this 

11 aircraft parked at gate El, did you do that 

12 complete inspection? 

13 A No. I didn't I didn't touch 

14 the forward part of the wing, leading edge. 

15 I just did an inspection on the -- the part 

16 where I saw the frost. 

17 Q Would you be able to to 

18 describe to the Court the approximate 

19 thickness of this frost as you observed it? 

20 A It's I would say it it's 

21 difficult to measure the thickness, but during 

22 the deposition we talked about a sheet of 

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1 paper. And looking at a sheet of paper, I 

2 would say it's at least that thick if not 

3 thicker than a sheet of paper. 

4 Q Now, Inspector Perkins, through 

5 your training with-- with respect to the type 

6 rating on the CRJ and also that the FAA 

7 provided to you, did you receive instruct ion 

8 on the hazards posed by frost on aircraft 

9 wings? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And what is your understanding 

12 generally of the hazards posed by frost on --

13 on an aircraft's wing? 

14 A The hazards are -- are numerous on 

15 aircraft's wings. You run into aerodynamic 

16 problems including the loss of lift, increase 

17 of drag. Roll instability is common. The CRJ 

18 wing in particular is -- is, I'd say, fragile 

19 or more -- more -- more of a concern than 

20 other types of aircraft's wings. 

21 Q And why is the wing of the CRJ 

22 more of a concern than other aircrafts' wings 

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1 as you understand it? 

2 A It's a it's a hard wing. 

3 Q What does the term "hard wing" 

4 mean? 

5 A So hard wing means that there's 

6 not a leading edge device so there's no slats 

7 on the front, and those types of wings can be 

8 more of a concern with frozen contamination. 

9 Q And if you -- if you know, why is 

10 that more of a concern? 

11 A I believe it's for the laminar 

12 flow characteristics. 

13 Q Moving on, Inspector Perkins, you 

14 said that you had taken a photograph of the --

15 of the wing, the aircraft's right wing. What 

16 happened after you took that photograph? 

17 A After I took the photograph I 

18 returned to my car where I was planning on 

19 watching the pushback operation and then to 

20 follow the aircraft to the de-ice pad where I 

21 could observe the de-ice process. 

22 Q Now, Inspector Perkins, you say 

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1 followed the aircraft to the de-ice pad. Why 

2 why do you say that? 

3 A Well, there's several different 

4 de-ice pads at Salt Lake City International. 

5 I wanted to make sure that I -- I went to the 

6 right one because there's a different 

7 frequency used for the different pads. So my 

8 plan was to -- rather than leave right then 

9 and there and go guess at which pad they 

10 were going to go, I wanted to follow them on 

11 the service road to whichever pad they were 

12 intending on going to so I could observe the 

13 de-ice process. 

14 Q Inspector Perkins, why did you --

15 when you say that you wanted to follow the 

16 aircraft to the de-ice pad, why did you assume 

17 it was going to the de-ice pad? 

18 A There was frozen contamination, 

19 frost, on both wings, and that's -- part of 

20 the de-ice program for SkyWest is to have that 

21 removed. 

22 Q At the time that -- that you got 

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1 back into your car, did you believe that the 

2 flight crew had detected this frozen 

3 contamination? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q So, Inspector Perkins, if you 

6 could, walk me through what happens after you 

7 get into your car. What happens next? 

8 A The crew commenced the pushback 

9 procedure. And what happened next, I guess, 

10 was unexpected for me. They -- rather than 

11 taxiing to the de-ice pads that were being 

12 used that morning they taxied --

13 Q And, Inspector Perkins, were you 

14 following this aircraft as it -- as it taxied? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q So where did you follow the 

17 aircraft to? 

18 A The aircraft taxied to spot 23 

19 which is to the west of where the gate was, so 

20 I followed them kind of parallel along a 

21 service road which they came to a rest and 

22 stopped for several minutes at spot 23 before 

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1 taxiing for takeoff. 

2 Q Inspector Perkins, your testimony 

3 is that they took off after they left spot 23? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Did they use a direct route to get 

6 to the runway from there or did they taxi 

7 somewhere else first? 

8 A It was a direct route. They made 

9 a left turn at the taxiway which took them 

10 down to the runway for -- for takeoff. 

11 Q Inspector Perkins, why didn't you 

12 attempt to stop this aircraft from departing? 

13 A I would have loved to. I didn't 

14 have the resources with me in the car at the 

15 time. I just had a -- a handheld radio that 

16 was tuned into the de-ice pad, and I didn't 

17 have the frequency for the air traffic control 

18 tower to make contact. I also didn't have the 

19 phone number in my phone to -- to make the 

20 phone calls necessary. 

21 Q Inspector Perkins, did you 

22 consider driving your car in front of the 

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1 aircraft to -- to get their attention? 

2 A No. I never really considered 

3 doing that. It was taking a car onto an 

4 active taxiway without contacting the tower, 

5 not seeing the full picture, I thought would 

6 be -- would be careless to try to track down 

7 chase down a moving airplane. 

8 Q Was there any other way that you 

9 could have gotten the crew's attention? 

10 A With the resources I had 

11 available, unfortunately, no. 

12 Q So, Inspector Perkins, can you 

13 tell us what you did after you observed the 

14 aircraft take off? 

15 A Yes, after the airplane -- while 

16 the airplane was taking off I was on the phone 

17 with my supervisor telling him about the 

18 events that were unfolding. 

19 Q Why did you call your supervisor? 

20 A That was the resource that I had 

21 available to me was my supervisor. Prior to 

22 that I -- I actually sent a text message to 

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1 the principal operations inspector. He was in 

2 a meeting with some management officials from 

3 SkyWest, so he was notified. And then while I 

4 was waiting to hear back from him is when I 

5 decided to call my supervisor. He carries a 

6 cell phone in his pocket, so I knew I could 

7 get ahold of him. 

8 Q So, Inspector Perkins, could you 

9 explain why you sent a text message to -- to 

10 the principal operations inspector? 

11 A I knew he was with the management 

12 official of SkyWest, so I figured that would 

13 be prudent to -- to notify the leaders of the 

14 company. And then when he wasn't able to call 

15 me back, I thought the next best option was to 

16 notify my supervisor. 

17 Q Now, after you notified your 

18 supervisor of what happened, what -- did you 

19 do anything else with respect to this case? 

20 A I did. I continued to try to 

21 manage what I could that was available to me, 

22 so I was able to locate the -- the de-icing 

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1 manager in charge of de-icing that morning, 

2 Rich Millward. And I had a brief conversation 

3 with him about what had happened that morning 

4 to let him know of the risk and for him to be 

5 on the lookout, you know, for possibly 

6 something -- another case where this might 

7 happen. 

8 Q Once you notified SkyWest's 

9 de-icing manager, did you have any more 

10 contact with employees of SkyWest Airlines 

11 concerning this case? 

12 A It must have been a week or -- or 

13 maybe two weeks later we conducted an 

14 interview, the assistant manager and myself, 

15 with a a SkyWest pilot who was on the 

16 airplane: Daniel Anderson. 

17 Q Did you interview anybody else, 

18 Inspector Perkins? 

19 A Interviewed a passenger on the 

20 airplane that was sitting behind the SkyWest 

21 pilot. 

22 Q How about the flight crew, did you 

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1 ever interview them? 

2 A We did. We myself and two 

3 other inspectors met the flight crew when they 

4 returned to Salt Lake that day and were able 

5 to have a discussion with them about our 

6 concerns that morning. 

7 Q At some point, Inspector Perkins, 

8 did you begin an FAA investigation of the 

9 facts and circumstances surrounding this 

10 incident? 

11 A Yes. It started that day. The 

12 investigation started -- I guess it started 

13 with notifying the de-ice manager, and the 

14 next step in the investigation was the 

15 interview with the crew. 

16 Q Inspector Perkins, did you gather 

17 any documents as part of your inspection? 

18 A Yes. 

19 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 1 d 1 ike 

20 to request continuing permission to approach 

21 to hand the witness documents. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

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1 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

2 Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure you show 

4 everything to Mr. Emerson. 

5 MR. SPITZER: Absolutely, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 Your Honor, I'd like to present 

8 the witness with what has been marked as 

9 Exhibit 1. 

10 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, for 

11 housekeeping, SkyWest exhibits will be R-1, 2, 

12 3. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

14 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, do you 

15 recognize this document? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And what is it? 

18 A It's the air carrier certificate 

19 for SkyWest Airlines. 

20 Q And if you turn the page, what's 

21 next? 

22 A The next page is Operations 

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1 Specification A001. 

2 Q And what is the significance of 

3 this document? 

4 A This document authorizes SkyWest 

5 to to conduct domestic flight and 

6 supplemental operations as an air carrier. 

7 Q And if you turn the page again, 

8 what is that? 

9 A This is Operations Specification 

10 DOSS, aircraft listing. This document shows 

11 the aircraft that was operated the morning of 

12 December 7, 2011. 

13 Q And do you recognize the aircraft 

14 on there? 

15 A Yes. November 426 Sierra Whiskey. 

16 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 1 d like 

17 to offer what's been previously marked as 

18 Administrator's Exhibit 1. 

19 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Just for 

21 the record, what the Court does with the 

22 exhibits is I'm going to pencil ID above the 

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1 exhibit number. When it's admitted I strike 

2 through and I write the D along everything 

3 that's in pencil. That gives both of you the 

4 opportunity to double-check me when I get 

5 done. I also do a spreadsheet which I'll 

6 share with the two of you once I get it done. 

7 But just I want you to understand the 

8 mechanics. When you -- when you go on the 

9 regulations. gov and you see markings, they're 

10 typically the Court's. 

11 So Agency Exhibit 1 for 

12 identification is received received into 

13 evidence as Agency Exhibit 1. 

14 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 1 WAS 

15 RECEIVED.) 

16 MR. SPITZER: And, Your Honor, for 

17 the sake of convenience, can I offer you the 

18 same exhibit that goes to the court reporter? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

20 MR. SPITZER: Do you mind if 

21 can the court reporter take your exhibits 

22 afterwards or do you want separate copies from 

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1 the court reporter? 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I 1m going to 

3 keep the originals. If you've got an extra 

4 copy to give the court reporter so she 

5 understands what you're talking about, that 

6 works good. But I normally keep the -- the 

7 exhibits, and I will get them to Ms. Matthews 

8 in my office. 

9 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 Your Honor, I'd like to present 

12 the witness with what has been marked as 

13 Administrator's Exhibit 2. 

14 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 

15 Perkins, what is this document? 

16 A This is Operations Specification 

17 A023. 

18 Q Now, what's the significance of 

19 this document? 

20 A This authorizes SkyWest to use 

21 their SkyWest Airlines Ground De-icing Program 

22 Manual, SB2800, to go about their de-icing 

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1 responsibilities as an air carrier. 

2 Q And the documents that are 

3 attached behind this, what is that collection 

4 of documents? 

5 A This is a portion of the Ground 

6 De-icing Program Manual. 

7 Q Is this the entire Ground De-icing 

8 Manual? 

9 A No. This -- what I have here is 

10 Chapter 2 which covers definitions and 

11 acronyms, abbreviation. Also Chapter 4 is 

12 included and Appendix A. 

13 Q So this is a collection of 

14 excerpts from the Ground De-icing Manual? 

15 A That's correct. 

16 Q Is this Ground De-icing Manual the 

17 version of the manual that was in effect at 

18 the time of the December 7, 2011 flight? 

19 A Yes. 

20 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 

21 to offer Administrator's Exhibit 2. 

22 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 2 

2 for identification is received in evidence as 

3 Agency Exhibit 2. 

4 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 2 WAS 

5 RECEIVED.) 

6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 

7 to offer to the witness what has been 

8 previously marked as Administrator's Exhibit 

9 5. 

10 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 

11 Perkins, do you recognize this document? 

12 A Yes, I do. 

13 Q What is this document? 

14 A This is weather data that I 

15 obtained as part of the investigation for this 

16 case from the National Weather Service or the 

17 National Climatic Data Center. 

18 Q And is this weather at Salt Lake 

19 City for the aircraft at the time of the 

20 subject flight? 

21 A Yes. 

22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 

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1 to offer what has been previously marked as 

2 Administrator's Exhibit 5 into evidence. 

3 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 5 

5 for identification is received in evidence as 

6 Agency Exhibit 5. 

7 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 5 WAS 

8 RECEIVED.) 

9 MR. SPITZER: I'd like to offer 

10 the witness what has been previously marked as 

11 Administrator's Exhibit 6. 

12 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, do you 

13 recognize this document? 

14 A Yes, I do. 

15 Q Where does this document come 

16 from? 

17 A This was provided from SkyWest 

18 Airlines. This is the -- called the tail audit 

19 report, and shows the different times that's 

20 recorded from the ACARS, things such as out 

21 time and off times. 

22 Q Can you explain for the Court what 

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1 ACAR stands for? 

2 A It's aircraft communication and 

3 reporting system. It's a system on board the 

4 airplane that monitors the time. It's a 

5 communication tool for the crews. 

6 Q Inspector, looking at this 

7 document can you determine when certain events 

8 happened on the aircraft? 

9 A Yes. 

10 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 

11 to offer what has been previously marked as 

12 Administrator's Exhibit 6 into evidence. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson? 

14 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency -- Agency 

16 Exhibit 6 for identification is received into 

17 evidence as Agency Exhibit 6. 

18 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 6 WAS 

19 RECEIVED.) 

20 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 

21 to approach the witness with what has been 

22 previously marked as Administrator's Exhibit 

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1 7. 

2 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, what 

3 is this document? 

4 A This is a copy of the dispatch 

5 release for the flight in question in this 

6 case, Flight 7770. 

7 Q Where did you obtain this document 

8 from? 

9 A This was also provided by SkyWest 

10 Airlines. 

11 Q This was obtained as part of your 

12 investigation into the subject flight? 

13 A That's correct. 

14 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 1 d like 

15 to offer what has been previously marked as 

16 Administrator's Exhibit 7 into evidence. 

17 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 7 

19 for identification is received into evidence 

20 as Agency Exhibit 7. 

21 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 7 WAS 

22 RECEIVED.) 

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1 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

2 Honor. 

3 Your Honor, I'd like to offer the 

4 witness what has been previously marked as 

5 Administrator's Exhibit 3. 

6 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 

7 Perkins, what is this document? 

8 A This is a picture that I took of 

9 the right wing of aircraft 426 Sierra Whiskey. 

10 Q This is a photograph you took of 

11 the wing on December 7, 2011? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And what does this photograph 

14 show, if you know? 

15 A This photograph shows frost on the 

16 upper surface of the wing of the aircraft. 

17 Q Is this a fair and accurate 

18 depiction of the frost on the wing of SkyWest 

19 Flight 7770 on the morning of December 7, 

20 2011? 

21 A Yes. 

22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 

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1 to offer what has been previously marked as 

2 Administrator's 3 into evidence. 

3 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. This 

5 is 3 or 7? 

6 MR. SPITZER: Three, Your Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

8 MR. SPITZER: And, YourHonor, I'd 

9 like to present the witness with what has been 

10 marked as Administrator's Exhibit 9. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit 3 for 

12 identification is received into evidence as 

13 Exhibit 3 . 

14 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 3 WAS 

15 RECEIVED. ) 

16 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, what 

19 is this document? 

20 A This is a second photograph I took 

21 of the aircraft that morning that's showing 

22 the registration of the aircraft. 

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1 Q Is this a fair and accurate 

2 depiction of the registration on Flight 7770 

3 on the morning of December 7, 2 011 as you 

4 observed it? 

5 A Yes. 

6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 'd like 

7 to offer what has been previously marked as 

8 Administrator's Exhibit 9 into evidence. 

9 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

10 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 9 WAS 

11 RECEIVED. ) 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Just to 

13 facilitate the record, we we all have in 

14 front of us pictures, but we've got two 

15 exhibits both of which referred to as photos 

16 of an aircraft in the record. So Exhibit 3 

17 appears to be -- asking the witness this. 

18 Exhibit 3 appears to be a 

19 photograph of the left wing of an aircraft. 

20 Is that correct? 

21 THE WITNESS: No, sir. It's a 

22 picture of the right wing of the aircraft. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So it's --

2 Exhibit 3 is the right wing of the aircraft. 

3 I'm going to note that on the photograph. 

4 Exhibit 9 is a picture of the right side of 

5 the aircraft. Is that correct --

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: from about the 

8 engine up to the wing assembly. 

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: That way we don't 

11 have two exhibits in the record that are 

12 identified as photos. 

13 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 

16 Perkins, turning to what has been previously 

17 marked as Administrator's Exhibit 3, where 

18 were you standing, approximately, when you 

19 took this photograph? 

20 A I was standing at -- at the wing, 

21 very close to the wing on the outboard section 

22 of the right wing as I took the photograph. 

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1 Q When you say "outboard section," 

2 approximately how far from the wing tip were 

3 you standing? 

4 A I'd say approximately three feet. 

5 Q So for the sake of clarification, 

6 you were standing behind the wing three feet 

7 to the left of the right wing tip? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Was there more frost on the 

10 aircraft besides the -- what's depicted in 

11 this photograph? 

12 A Yes, there was. This photograph 

13 doesn't capture the entire wing. There was 

14 more frost than what's -- what's shown here. 

15 Q And why didn't you take a picture 

16 of the remainder of the frost? 

17 A Well, to be honest, had I known we 

18 were going to be here today, I would have 

19 taken many photos. I I took a photo of the 

20 frost that was -- was there in front of me and 

21 snapped a photo of the tail number. 

22 Q Inspector Perkins, from your 

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1 experience as a CRJ pilot and your training, 

2 do you know what is contained underneath this 

3 structure where the frost appears? 

4 A Well, on this -- on the wing of 

5 the CRJ aircraft there's a fuel tank that 

6 starts at the root and it runs span-wise 

7 across the wing up to a certain spot, perhaps 

8 two-thirds of the way out of the wing, and 

9 then the outer portion-- the rest of the wing 

10 span-wise, I believe, is just honeycomb and 

11 other -- other material away from the fuel 

12 tank. 

13 Q In the part of the wing that's 

14 depicted in photograph 3, is there fuel 

15 underlying that area where the frost is shown? 

16 A I don't -- I don't believe so in 

17 this photo. 

18 Q Turning now to what has been 

19 previously marked as Administrator's Exhibit 

20 6, looking at this document, can you tell when 

21 the aircraft began its pushback? 

22 A Yes, I can. The -- on the third 

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1 page there's a -- some -- some data there, and 

2 it says push/movement, and that's at 1452 

3 Zulu, which would be 7:52 local time, is when 

4 the -- when the push occurred. 

5 Q And when did you first observe the 

6 frost on the aircraft, Inspector Perkins? 

7 A 7:41, approximately, when I 

8 when I first approached the airplane, and I 

9 I saw the frost on the left wing is first time 

10 I I saw the frost. 

11 Q And at 7: 52, the push/movement 

12 time that's marked on this this ACAR 

13 report, Exhibit 6, were you still able to 

14 observe the frost? 

15 A I think by that when the 

16 airplane was pushing back, I was -- I was back 

17 in the car, so I wasn't at the wing side as I 

18 was several minutes before that, up close and 

19 personal. 

20 Q When was the last time you 

21 observed the frost on the wing, if you know? 

22 A At the time that the photo was 

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1 taken which -- which is about 7:48 in the 

2 morning, a.m. About -- what is that? -- four 

3 minutes before push? 

4 Q How do you know this photograph 

5 was taken at 7:48? 

6 A I believe that number was taken 

7 off my phone. 

8 Q Were you able to observe frost on 

9 the aircraft's wing at any point after the 

10 pushback? 

11 A No. 

12 Q And why not? 

13 A After pushback I was -- I was in 

14 my car following along with the crew as they 

15 taxied. So at no point after that was I wing 

16 side looking at the wing. 

17 Q So why couldn't you observe the 

18 frost on the wings when you're -- when you're 

19 following the aircraft? 

20 A Just the -- I guess the distance 

21 that I was at wouldn't give me a clear enough 

22 view to discern the frost. 

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1 Q Inspector Perkins, looking at this 

2 this Exhibit 6, from this document can you 

3 tell when the aircraft ultimately took off? 

4 A Yes, I can. Let me give you the 

5 page number here. So on page 4 the very last 

6 data entry at 1508 Zulu, or 8:08 local, 

7 there's a text block that says, "Off." 

8 Q Now, Inspector Perkins, you said 

9 that before the aircraft took off it had 

10 taxied to spot 26, as you described it. 

11 Looking at this data, can you tell the court 

12 when the aircraft arrived at spot 26? 

13 A Yes. Spot 23 is where it arrived. 

14 And looking at the data, it appears they 

15 arrived at spot 23 at 1502, is when they set 

16 their brake. 

17 Q And at this time is it fair to say 

18 that you believed the aircraft was going to go 

19 to de-ice? 

20 A Well, it was possible. There is a 

21 de-ice pad over on the west side that's used 

22 for de-icing. 

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1 Q Now, can you tell when the 

2 aircraft left spot 23 from looking at this 

3 data in document 6 or Exhibit 6? 

4 A Yes. At 1504, or 8:04 local, they 

5 released their brake. That was the last time 

6 the brakes were used because the next data 

7 entry is the takeoff. So they arrived at spot 

8 23 at 1502, sat for two minutes, and then 

9 departed at 1508. 

10 Q Inspector Perkins, I'd like to--

11 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'd like 

12 to present the witness with one additional 

13 document. This is what has been previously 

14 marked as Exhibit 4. 

15 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Do you recognize 

16 this document, Inspector Perkins? 

17 A Yes, I do. 

18 Q What is this document? 

19 A It's the Salt Lake City 

20 International Airport diagram. 

21 Q Where did you obtain this document 

22 from, Inspector? 

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1 A I printed -- I obtained this from 

2 Jefferson. They're the chart provider. 

3 Q And what does it show? 

4 A It shows the airport layout, the 

5 runway configurations, and the associated 

6 taxiways and de-icing pads and ramp areas. 

7 Q Now, Inspector Perkins, can you 

8 mark with a pen -- do you have a pen? 

9 A No. 

10 MR. SPITZER: Permission to 

11 approach, Your Honor. 

12 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 

13 Perkins, can you mark with an X the location 

14 of Echo 1 where you first observed the subject 

15 aircraft? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Now, using your pen, can you draw 

18 the course that the aircraft followed to get 

19 ultimately to the runway? 

20 A Yes. (Witness complies.) 

21 Q Can you circle the spot 23 where 

22 the aircraft held on this document? 

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1 A Yes. (Witness complies.) 

2 Q And can you mark with an arrow on 

3 this document the nearest de-icing location to 

4 spot 23? 

5 A Yes. (Witness complies.) 

6 Q Are you finished? 

7 A Yes. 

8 MR. SPITZER: Counselor. 

9 Your Honor, I'd like to present to 

10 you what has been marked as Administratc:r 

11 Exhibit 4 containing the markings of Inspector 

12 Perkins as to the route of the subject 

13 aircraft on the morning of December 7, 2011. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not sure what 

15 the answer is. The Court can see the line of 

16 travel, but I would point out that -- okay. 

17 Well, at this point are you offering exhibit? 

18 MR. SPITZER: I am, Your Honor. 

19 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: What I'm going to 

21 suggest, Counsel, is that -- you've given me 

22 the unmarked exhibit and you've given me one 

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1 that the witness has marked. It's difficult 

2 to discern the line. What I'm going to 

3 suggest is that the unmarked copy be 

4 identified as Exhibit 4A and the one that the 

5 witness has marked be 4B. That way it's 

6 easier to -- to see where the line is showing 

7 the the movement of the aircraft. Either 

8 one of you have any objection to that? 

9 MR. SPITZER: No objection from 

10 the Administrator, Your Honor. 

11 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: So the original 

13 exhibit presented to the Court is 4A, and that 

14 is an unmarked copy of the schematic of Salt 

15 Lake International Airport. That will be 

16 received into evidence as Agency Exhibit 4A. 

17 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 4A WAS 

18 RECEIVED.) 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: The copy that was 

20 marked up by the witness is going to be 4B. 

21 And I would point out that the E terminal 

22 appears to be run into the letters air carrier 

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1 apron. You can see the X. You can see the 

2 line that goes from right to left and then 

3 from top to bottom down to the bottom of 

4 runway 34L. That will be received into 

5 evidence as Agency Exhibit 4B. 

6 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 4B WAS 

7 RECEIVED.) 

8 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

9 Honor. 

10 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector 

11 Perkins, in your investigationand observation 

12 of this incident, did you come to a conclusion 

13 as to whether SkyWest had compromised safety 

14 by its operation of this aircraft? 

15 A I felt that the safety was 

16 compromised, yes. 

17 Q And what are you basing that on? 

18 A The fact that there was frozen 

19 contamination on both wings of the airplane at 

20 time of pushback and that that was not removed 

21 before takeoff. 

22 Q Inspector Perkins, from your 

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1 analysis of SkyWest's operations 

2 specifications, did you come to any 

3 conclusions as to whether SkyWest complied 

4 with their operations specifications during 

5 this incident? 

6 A Yeah. My conclusion is that the 

7 the Ground De- ice Program Manual and 

8 everything contained there within was not 

9 followed; therefore, I find -- my conclusion 

10 is that the carrier is not in compliance with 

11 the ops spec to follow that manual. 

12 Q With respect to this particular 

13 incident? 

14 A Correct. 

15 Q What specific provisions of the 

16 operations manual or the operations 

17 specifications do you believe that SkyWest was 

18 not in compliance with? 

19 A The Ground De-ice Program Manual 

20 calls for contamination to be removed by the 

21 de-ice process. That's spelled out. And that 

22 was not accomplished on December 7, 2011. 

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1 Q How about the act of departing the 

2 aircraft from from Salt Lake City on 

3 December 7, 2011, with frost on the wings, 

4 would that be a violation of the Federal 

5 Aviation regulations? 

6 A Yes, it would. 

7 Q Do you know which regulations? 

8 A CFR 121.639 Bravo, I believe. 

9 Q Would that also be a violation of 

10 SkyWest's operations specifications? 

11 A Yes, it would. The Ground De-ice 

12 Program Manual -- the objective of it is to 

13 prevent airplanes from taking off with 

14 contamination. 

15 Q Earlier you said that you believed 

16 that SkyWest violated their ops specs by 

17 failing to de-ice the aircraft. Does that 

18 can you point to any particular part of 

19 Exhibit 2 that would that would be 

20 prohibited by failing to de-ice the aircraft? 

21 A Okay. So on page 4-3 of Chapter 4 

22 the it's titled ''De-ice/Anti-ice Program 

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1 Implementation Procedure." And there's 

2 policies there that run throughout the next 

3 few pages of -- of what the policy is and what 

4 procedure should be followed to implement and 

5 go through the the de-icing procedures. 

6 Q And in this procedure is SkyWest 

7 required to de-ice when frost is on an 

8 aircraft's wings prior to takeoff? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Inspector Perkins, you mentioned 

11 earlier that you had interviewed the flight 

12 crew of this aircraft. Did you interview the 

13 first officer on this aircraft? 

14 A I did. 

15 Q And did he conduct a preflight 

16 walk-around of this aircraft? 

17 A Yes. He stated that he did 

18 perform a preflight walk-around. 

19 Q And during that preflight 

20 walk-around, did he state whether or not he 

21 had conducted a tactile inspection for frost 

22 and frozen contamination on the aircraft's 

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1 wings? 

2 A He did state that. 

3 Q Did you notice anything unusual 

4 about his -- when you asked him whether he had 

5 conducted this -- this inspection? 

6 A After the interview was over he 

7 asked me to take him to the location where I 

8 saw the frost, and when we were out there, I 

9 pointed to the -- the upper surface where the 

10 photograph was taken. And at that time he 

11 didn't mention if he performed a tactile 

12 inspection on that portion of the wing or not. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: He did or did not? 

14 THE WITNESS: He did not mention 

15 that he checked that part of the wing. 

16 A He did mention that he checked the 

17 wing leading edge and the flaps. 

18 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, subject 

19 to redirect, the Administrator has no further 

20 questions for Inspector Aaron Perkins. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, do 

22 you want to inquire now or take a break now? 

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1 Your call. 

2 MR. EMERSON: At 10:18 once I get 

3 going, it will probably be another hour. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we take 

5 a quick break then? 

6 MR. EMERSON: Okay. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

8 admonish you not to discuss your testimony 

9 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

10 hearing. We're going to take about a 

11 10-minute break. We're going to see if the 

12 coffee shop still exists in the basement. I 

13 keep looking at the clock. I know it isn't 

14 working. At 10:30 I'm going to ask you to 

15 return to where you are at the stand. So 

16 we're going to go off the record for a couple 

17 minutes. 

18 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

19 Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN : We're off the 

21 record. 

22 (A break was taken from 10:17 to 

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1 10:33.) 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 

3 remind you that you're still under oath. 

4 Mr. Emerson. 

5 MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. EMERSON: 

9 Q Good morning, Mr. Perkins. 

10 A Good morning. 

11 Q How long were you employed at the 

12 FAA prior to December 7, 2011? 

13 A My hire date was February 27, 

14 2011. 

15 Q After that an extended period of 

16 

17 A About 10 months. 

18 Q -- about 10 months. How much of 

19 that was spent in training? 

20 A Spent several months I think. 

21 It's kind of split up over -- a little bit 

22 here, a little bit there, but I I d say 

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1 collectively probably about three months of 

2 that first year is spent in Oklahoma at the 

3 academy. 

4 Q And you completed your de- icing 

5 training in October 20117 

6 A Actually I went back and checked 

7 it after the deposition. I didn't receive the 

8 deposition until Saturday, two days ago. I 

9 was able to go back and review that. It was 

10 actually on December 2nd, is when I finished. 

11 Q You finished December 2nd, so five 

12 days before this event --

13 A Yes. 

14 Q is when you completed your 

15 training? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q So is this your first EPI on a 

18 de-icing operation? 

19 A I'm not sure about that. I would 

20 have to go back into the repository and see my 

21 inspections. 

22 Q Do you think you -- you completed 

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1 one in the five days priors? 

2 A I might have. I I don't 

3 recall. 

4 Q If it wasn't your first, it was 

5 pretty close to being your first one. You 

6 testified you were all by yourself --

7 A Yes. 

8 Q out there. Is that typical? 

9 A It can be. It just really 

10 depends. For local de- icing inspections here 

11 in Salt Lake, if there's more than one 

12 inspector that has that inspection assigned to 

13 them, then sometimes two inspectors could go. 

14 If -- it really depends on the availability of 

15 inspectors. Going by yourself is -- is just 

16 as normal as -- as not. 

17 Q Why did you select December 7th to 

18 perform an EPI on the de-icing operations? 

19 A I knew I had to get done a certain 

20 number of activities for the quarter, and you 

21 try to get the work done when de-icing 

22 activity is happening. So a lot of times with 

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1 de-icing events it's more or less dictated by 

2 the weather. 

3 Q Were the weather conditions 

4 conducive for icing on December 7, 2011? 

5 A Yeah. It was a clear, cold 

6 morning which is notoriously prone for frost. 

7 So that's-- you know, that's being-- what I 

8 saw out there was airplanes being de-iced that 

9 morning for that reason. 

10 Q Let me draw your attention to one 

11 of the exhibits in front of you. It's Exhibit 

12 No. 5. You identified this before as weather 

13 data that you obtained in conjunction with 

14 your investigation. 

15 A Yes, sir. 

16 Q Have you found it? Do you have it 

17 in front of you? 

18 A Yes, sir. 

19 Q Where did you get this 

20 information? 

21 A We -- I put a request in to the 

22 National Climatic Data Center, I presume. 

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1 It's-- it's a procedure we use to-- to get 

2 certified weather. It's called a blue ribbon 

3 weather package. That's-- that's what we use 

4 for these kind of cases. 

5 Q The temperatures recorded here in 

6 Exhibit 5 are hourly. Is that correct? 

7 A That's correct. 

8 Q Do you know whether or not more 

9 accurate weather data was available to you 

10 when you made this request? By more accurate 

11 I mean the temperature taken more often than 

12 once an hour. 

13 A No the airport has an ATIS at the 

14 terminal. I forget what it stands for, but 

15 ATIS. And that's also updated hourly unless 

16 there's some sort of significant change. Then 

17 they'll they'll amend the ATIS, but 

18 yeah, that's it's an hourly reading, is 

19 what's typically used in airline operations. 

20 Q Do you know whether or not the 

21 airport takes a measurement of the temperature 

22 more often than one hour? 

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1 A I don't -- don't know the system 

2 that you'd be referring to, no. 

3 Q Do you know the source of this 

4 data, where the thermometers were located that 

5 took the temperature, for example? 

6 A I -- I don't know where the -- no, 

7 I don't know where they take the temperature. 

8 Q Did you request any data 

9 concerning sunlight, solar radiation, that was 

10 hitting the field at this time of day? 

11 A No. 

12 Q You testified that upon arrival at 

13 the airport that morning you observed de-icing 

14 operations. 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q At what location did you observe 

17 those de-icing operations? 

18 A I believe it was at spot 9, is 

19 where the de-icing was occurring, the de-icing 

20 process. 

21 MR. EMERSON: May I approach, Your 

22 Honor? 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

2 Q (By MR. EMERSON) You put 

3 Exhibit 4 in front of you. Can you locate 

4 spot 9 on that? 

5 A It's right there, sir. 

6 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, looking 

7 at Exhibit 4, you will see above terminal C a 

8 little circular 9. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Slow down. With 

10 these glasses I'm still trying to find C. 

11 MR. EMERSON: I can indicate it, 

12 if it's helpful, Your Honor. The witness has 

13 indicated spot 9. I know it's small. See the 

14 circular 9 right there? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: I like the bigger 

16 schematic that we had at the last hearing. I 

17 couldn't get it folded into my briefcase. 

18 Just for the record, c is 

19 approximately just left of center on Exhibit 

20 4A. 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Now, the 

22 aircraft, the SkyWest aircraft, that you 

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1 observed being de-iced before you approached 

2 Echo 1, they're being a de-iced at spot 9? 

3 A From my recollection they were at 

4 spot 9 or 10. They're kind of together right 

5 there. 

6 Q Why didn't you take photographs of 

7 this operation? 

8 A When did I? 

9 Q Why didn't you? 

10 A I -- I'm not sure if I did or not 

11 if I took I don't recall if I did. 

12 Q You've seen the photographs 

13 offered into evidence. Did you take any other 

14 photographs than what has been offered today? 

15 A No. 

16 Q What device did you use to take 

17 those photographs? 

18 A My iPhone. 

19 Q Doesn't the FAA issue you a 

20 camera? 

21 A Yes, they do. 

22 Q Did you have that camera with you? 

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1 A I did but it was in the car in my 

2 bag. 

3 Q Why didn't you use the camera that 

4 the FAA issued to you to capture the images 

5 that have been offered as evidence here today? 

6 A I was at the wing. It was cold. 

7 I I had a camera available on the iPhone so 

8 I I decided to take the picture with that. 

9 Q But you said you returned to your 

10 car, repositioned it, and then got out to take 

11 the photographs. Why didn't you get your 

12 camera then? 

13 A I didn't think of it. I didn't 

14 think to grab the camera at that time. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so the Court. 

16 understands to make the record clear, a little 

17 bit -- if you look left of center, you can see 

18 where the control tower is. If you drop down 

19 about an inch or so, you'll see black circles 

20 with white numbers inside: 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 

21 13, 15, and 17. Are those places the various 

22 de-icing locations? 

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1 MR. EMERSON: You should probably 

2 ask the witness, Your Honor. 

3 THE WITNESS: I can help you, sir. 

4 Can I stand up? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, stand up. 

6 THE WITNESS: So the white --

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 

8 going to -- yeah. I'm trying to do this for 

9 the purposes of the record. 

10 If you look just left of center, 

11 just above the vertical midpoint and the 

12 horizontal midpoint, there's a -- the control 

13 tower is marked. If you drop down about an 

14 inch in the gray area, which is obviously 

15 apron, you see black circles with white 

16 numbers: 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, and 17. 

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are those various 

19 de-icing positions? 

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, in spots. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spots. 

22 THE WITNESS: Here's 11 here. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

2 THE WITNESS: So these are the 

3 apron located spot for de-icing. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're pointing to 

5 the legend which is over on the right-hand 

6 side. 

7 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So 

9 when you're talking about spots 

10 THE WITNESS: -- I'm referring to 

11 the black circles. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. So I think 

13 you referred counsel to spot 9 or spot 10 

14 which would be one of these two. 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again for purposes 

17 of the record, you also mentioned spot 23. 

18 Where would that be on this schematic? 

19 THE WITNESS: Okay. So the other 

20 spots are for ground control, taxi clearances. 

21 So it's the --

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Different location 

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1 

2 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- positions. 

4 THE WITNESS: Correct. So spot 23 

5 would be the square here. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Being here 

7 again on the on the exhibit, if you 

8 start with air carrier apron on this and on 4B 

9 you'll see a black line that traverses lightly 

10 right to left, goes around terminal A, and 

11 then ends up at 23 which is at the bottom of 

12 a string of boxes and circles. You don't get 

13 the taxiway. But, anyway, the line goes 

14 through apron location spot 23. Hopefully the 

15 record will be clear enough when I read it in 

16 a couple months. 

17 Thank you. 

18 All right, Counsel. Thank you. 

19 MR. EMERSON : Thank you, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, you 

22 testified that you arrived at at the 

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1 aircraft at Echo 1 at 7:41a.m. How did you 

2 come to think that that was the time you 

3 arrived? 

4 A I recall there being some sort of 

5 electronic board that's typical for it 

6 helps the crews see how much minutes they have 

7 till push. And I believe it said minus 10 and 

8 the scheduled push for this flight was 7:51, 

9 so by deduction I arrived at 7:41. 

10 Q You testified you took the 

11 photograph at 7:48 and that you know that 

12 because that information was on your 

13 telephone. Is that information still on your 

14 telephone? 

15 A It's not. 

16 Q Why not? 

17 A I don't have that phone anymore, 

18 sir. 

19 Q You testified at your deposition 

20 that you downloaded this photogr,aph to your 

21 FAA computer. Is that correct? 

22 A That's correct. 

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1 Q So that data must still exist on 

2 your computer. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q It does? 

5 A The picture is on the computer, 

6 sir. 

7 Q Well, SkyWest has repeatedly 

8 requested an electronic copy of that and have 

9 been told by Counsel that it doesn't exist. 

10 So it's your testimony today that that 

11 photograph exists in electronic format on your 

12 work computer? 

13 A I believe that was my testimony at 

14 the deposition. I emailed that photo to my 

15 my computer, which I believe is still on my 

16 computer. 

17 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we'd be 

18 happy to provide that. 

19 MR. EMERSON: Well, it's a little 

20 late in the day. I'm in the 

21 cross-examination. We've asked for this for 

22 several weeks now repeatedly and been told 

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1 that it's -- was destroyed in the ordinary 

2 course of business which left me nonplussed 

3 since evidence usually isn't destroyed in the 

4 ordinary course of business. So I suppose if 

5 it matters we might have to delay proceedings 

6 to get into the metadata, which is all the 

7 additional information that comes with the 

8 photograph that's taken from an iPhone or an 

9 electronic camera. 

10 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Would you agree? 

11 A I --

12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, that's 

13 not a question the witness should answer. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just -- Counsel. 

15 Go ahead, Mr. Emerson. 

16 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Would you agree 

17 that metadata was included with the photograph 

18 that you took and saved to your computer? 

19 A I don't think it was. With that 

20 version of the iPhone I I really wasn't 

21 familiar with what metadata was. I know that 

22 some phones do capture that. I looked on that 

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1 iPhone, got some help from some people in the 

2 office, and that the metadata is the 

3 location, time, that kind of thing. Right? 

4 Is that correct? 

5 Q Yes. 

6 A That information -- I wasn't able 

7 to find it . I 'm not sure --

8 Q Sounds like you're not sure even 

9 what it is. So did you conduct a search of 

10 your computer for the metadata that was 

11 included with the electronic photograph that 

12 you took? 

13 A The the picture was just 

14 emailed to my -- my computer so 

15 Q Anything other than looking at 

16 that picture, did you do a search and look at 

17 the metadata? 

18 A I -- yeah, I looked. And I don't 

19 think that that data was there. 

20 Q That data would include a GPS 

21 location down to the foot of where this 

22 photograph was taken. 

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1 A Right. Yeah, that information was 

2 not available. 

3 Q The time stamp of the photograph. 

4 Is that available? 

5 A I -- I'm not sure if -- if it was 

6 included in that or not. 

7 Q Whether or not the photograph was 

8 modified will be included in the metadata. 

9 Has this photograph in Exhibit 3 -- has this 

10 photograph been modified in any way since it 

11 was captured on your telephone? 

12 A Not in any way, no. 

13 Q Look at Exhibit 3 for a moment, 

14 would you, Mr. Perkins? Can you tell by 

15 looking at Exhibit 3 whether or not this wing 

16 is attached to ship N426 Sierra Whiskey? 

17 A From this photograph, it would not 

18 be able to determine it's attached to 426. 

19 Q This could be the wing of any 

20 RJ200 parked out at the ramp that day? 

21 A It's not. 

22 Q But by looking at this photograph, 

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1 you wouldn't be able to tell whether this was 

2 attached to the airship in question or some 

3 other airplane. 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q You said this is not a complete 

6 photo of the frost. What's missing? 

7 A The remainder of the wing. 

8 Q Which way? 

9 A Both ways. We're missing the 

10 outboard section where the winglet is, and 

11 you're missing the rest of the wing that goes 

12 to the fuselage. 

13 Q Okay. So very specifically you 

14 can tell by looking at this photograph there 

15 appears to be the formation of frost or 

16 pre-frost but not uniform and not over the 

17 entire wing. Would you agree? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q So very specifically, what portion 

20 of the wing not in this picture still had 

21 frost on it that you didn't photograph? 

22 A So what's represented here in the 

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1 photo, you see these panels, it looked like 

2 that moving towards the fuselage. 

3 Q There's one more panel to the 

4 right moving towards the winglet. Yes? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Was there frost present on the 

7 right-hand side of this picture in that panel? 

8 A I don't recall. 

9 Q Mr. Perkins, I know you have a lot 

10 of experience with this aircraft. I'll 

11 represent to you that there are four panels 

12 towards the outboard side of the wing 

13 configured like this. It appears you've taken 

14 -- you've captured portions of all four of 

15 them, the two center and then it looks like 

16 one on the right begins but isn't 

17 photographed, and then the one on the left you 

18 see a skiff of frost ln. 

19 A Okay. 

20 Q Do you agree that there are four 

21 panels? 

22 A I wouldn't know unless I had a 

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1 picture of the whole wing. It's not something 

2 that I would know offhand, how many panels 

3 there were. 

4 Q From your extensive experience 

5 with the aircraft, does that sound about 

6 right? 

7 A It's not something you really have 

8 to know or are trained on, is counting the 

9 panels. That's typically not included in the 

10 training. So if you have a picture of the 

11 wing, I could confirm or deny that there's 

12 four. 

13 Q But you couldn't say either way? 

14 A No. 

15 Q The largest panel in this 

16 photograph, what would you say the dimensions 

17 of that panel is if you were to measure around 

18 the rivets? 

19 A It would be a guess. It's maybe 

20 30 inches by 30 inches. It's just a guess. 

21 Q You testified in your deposition 

22 you're not particularly good at guessing sizes 

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1 and shapes or the depth of the frost or 

2 measurements. Would it surprise you to learn 

3 that the -- or would you believe it would be 

4 inconsistent with your knowledge of this 

5 aircraft to know that that square is 

6 approximately 12 inches by 12 inches or one 

7 square foot? 

8 A I 'm sorry. Was your quest ion do I 

9 believe that's the square foot? 

10 Q Yes, that the measurement if 

11 you took a ruler and laid it across those 

12 rivets, you would find that it's one square 

13 foot. 

14 A Unless I was at the wing with a 

15 ruler-- I just said it was 30 by 30. That's 

16 what my my guess would be. 

17 Q So your guess is twice as large as 

18 what I'm proffering to you as the--

19 A We know the wingspan 

20 Q potential size? 

21 A The wingspan on the CRJ is about 

22 70 feet from tip to tip. I don ' t know the 

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1 length of the fuselage-- or the width of the 

2 fuselage. So I'm guessing each wing, maybe 30 

3 feet. 

4 Q If this wing was in this room and 

5 you put the root at that window would the tip 

6 extend into the hallway? 

7 A I don't think so. 

8 Q Would it end at the wall? 

9 A If the fuselage was at the window 

10 you're saying? 

11 Q Yes. 

12 A With the tip into the wall? 

13 Q Yes. About 30 feet of wing? 

14 A That's about right I would say. 

15 If you divided that up into four panels, 

16 probably more than a foot. 

17 Q Indeed. Wouldn't you say from the 

18 perspective you took this panel this 

19 photograph that it -- it is -- is a closeup. 

20 Is that right? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Does it tend to exaggerate the 

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1 size of these panels? 

2 A Is that a question? 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A Does it exaggerate the size? I 

5 wouldn't say it would. 

6 Q If the wing started at that wall 

7 and ended over here and those panels were one 

8 square foot and there were four of them and 

9 you took the photograph -- you said it hits 

10 you about midchest. You took the photograph 

11 here. Yes? 

12 A Somewhere around there, yes. 

13 Q Wouldn't this angle tend to show 

14 ln a closeup an exaggerated size of the wing 

15 surface? 

16 A I guess my answer to that would be 

17 if you take a photo of something close, within 

18 the frame of the picture it will look bigger 

19 than if you took it from a farther distance 

20 away. I'm not sure I could say it would 

21 exaggerate the -- the size. 

22 Q Okay. On the four outboard panels 

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1 represented by my folder, you just testified 

2 you know those three had frost. You're not 

3 sure if this one did 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q -- is that right? 

6 Where -- where else is there frost 

7 on this wing that's not shown in that 

8 photograph? 

9 A I couldn't say for certain because 

10 I didn't inspect the front of the wing. 

11 Q Well, you just said that there 

12 was. So now you're not certain? 

13 A I said that there was? 

14 Q You said there was frost on this 

15 aircraft that's not shown in this photograph. 

16 A Right. 

17 Q Where? 

18 A Which I testified it's -- it's on 

19 the panels going in towards the fuselage. 

20 Q This way towards the fuselage. 

21 Yes? 

22 A In our courtroom scenario, yes, 

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1 the fuselage over here. 

2 Q So you've got a photograph of all 

3 four panels in there, at least portions of 

4 them. It ends. And then it's where's the 

5 frost from here, this way? Is it on the 

6 trailing edge or the leading edge? 

7 A It's -- like I mentioned a little 

8 earlier, it's representative of -- what you 

9 see here is what the -- the panels look like 

10 leading to the fuselage. 

11 Q Is there any frost outside the 

12 panels? Did you observe any frost outside the 

13 panels? 

14 A Not that I remember seeing. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 'm 

16 going to object to that last question. I 

17 think the panels as described by Mr. Emerson 

18 is a vague question. So would the counsel 

19 mind clarifying what he means by panels? 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

21 MR. EMERSON: Absolutely. 

22 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, look 

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1 at Exhibit 3. Do you see those rivets that 

2 seem to form squares 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q -- in panels? That's what I mean 

5 when I say panels. 

6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, is this 

7 referring just to the panels that are in the 

8 photograph or to the rest of the panels that 

9 comprise the aft section of the aircraft's 

10 right wing? 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: The important 

12 thing is whether or not the witness 

13 understands the question. 

14 Why don't you inquire into that? 

15 Q (By MR. EMERSON) You answered 

16 before and you didn't seem confused so -- but 

17 I'll ask you again. This photograph shows 

18 portions of four panels. Correct? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q It appears to capture two panels 

21 almost in their entirety and then little 

22 slivers of the other two. Correct? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Your testimony was you're not sure 

3 whether the farthest outboard panel had frost 

4 on it. We then have the picture of No. 2 and 

5 No. 3 and No. 4. Just the corner of it shows 

6 up on the left-hand side of that photograph. 

7 I asked you whether -- where the rest of the 

8 frost was that you testified about but wasn't 

9 in the photograph 

10 A Uh-huh. 

11 Q and you said it was in, and 

12 limited to, that fourth panel. Is that 

13 correct? 

14 A Yes. On that right wing, yes. 

15 Q Is there any frost any other place 

16 on this airplane that you observed? 

17 A The left wing. 

18 Q Was it limited to these four 

19 corresponding panels on the left side? 

20 A I couldn't say if it was on all 

21 four of those panels, but I know that from my 

22 distance to looking at the wing it was readily 

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1 apparent -- readily apparent and obvious that 

2 there was frost in the same location on those 

3 panels, so if that answers your question. 

4 Q That does. 

5 Did you observe any frost outside 

6 of those four panels on the left wing? 

7 A No. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so the 

9 record's clear -- this is for the witness. 

10 Looking at Exhibit 3 --

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN : you can see 

13 four panels. The left side of the picture 

14 would be in the direction towards the 

15 fuselage. Is that correct? 

16 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: And so the right 

18 of the photograph would be in a direction 

19 towards what's called the winglet, which is 

20 the upswing at the end of the wing. Is that 

21 correct? 

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

2 Q (By MR. EMERSON) It appears from 

3 the photograph, Mr. Perkins, that actually the 

4 right side of the wing is bigger than the 

5 left, if you look at Exhibit 3. It appears 

6 like the wing is getting bigger as it -- as it 

7 moves to the right. Is that just a distortion 

8 of -- of the photograph or does the airplane's 

9 wing actually get bigger as you move outboard? 

10 A No, the wing does not get bigger 

11 as you move outboard. So it's just -- just 

12 the way the photo looks. 

13 Q It's a consequence of the angle 

14 and how you took it on a closeup. 

15 A Perhaps, yes. 

16 Q Where does that wing strike you 

17 when you come up to the -- to the back of it 

18 to take that photograph? 

19 A Somewhere between, I guess, my 

20 waist and torso area. 

21 Q I stood behind one yesterday, and 

22 it hit me about right here. Does that seem to 

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1 be the correct height to you or would you 

2 place it higher or lower? 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, for 

4 the record describe what right here is. 

5 MR. EMERSON: If I was playing 

6 baseball, it's the top of the strike zone, 

7 right maybe shoulder to shoulder three 

8 inches down. 

9 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Does that appear 

10 to be where the --

11 A How tall are you, sir? 

12 Q -- that part. 

13 I'm 6' tall. 

14 A Six feet. Yeah, I'm 6'1'' and I 

15 think it's probably a little bit lower for 

16 myself. 

17 Q I'm 6' with my shoes on and 

18 without a haircut. 

19 A Okay. 

20 Q Okay. So that's about right. 

21 You had to take a picture by 

22 holding it up in the air. Were you looking 

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1 through the view finder or did you hold it 

2 away to take that picture? 

3 A I was about -- I was certainly 

4 looking through the view finder to -- to see 

5 what I was capturing. 

6 Q If the podium was the surface of 

7 the wing, you're taking it about like this? 

8 A Something like that. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again, describe 

10 the angle for the -- for the record. 

11 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Say the podium is 

12 four and a half feet tall, would you agree, if 

13 I'm 6 standing at my full ... 

14 A Yes. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: But the angle of 

16 the picture you're showing, the -- the witness 

17 would have been holding the camera at about 

18 head level or above pointing down towards the 

19 wing. Is that correct? 

20 THE WITNESS: Head level sir? No. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, what I'm--

22 why don't you describe if you were standing at 

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1 the wing how you would be holding the camera. 

2 THE WITNESS: Standing up it would 

3 be just about --

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You need to paint 

5 a word picture. That's the difficult thing 

6 about testimony. Because remember if -- when 

7 I make the decision, if somebody appeals this, 

8 this goes up to an appellate level. They 

9 don't have pictures of what we're doing in the 

10 courtroom, so you need to paint a word picture 

11 of what it is that you were doing so that 

12 someone who is just reading the record can 

13 understand what it is we're talking about. 

14 So describe go through the 

15 motions of what you're doing and then describe 

16 in words what you're doing. 

17 THE WITNESS: Can I stand up? 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. So you're 

19 -- how tall are you? 

20 THE WITNESS: I'm 6'1". 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So 

22 you're 6'1". We've agreed that the wing is 

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1 approximately four feet above the ground. 

2 THE WITNESS: It's somewhere up 

3 here. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which is the bench 

5 -- the --

6 THE WITNESS: The bench. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: bar of the 

8 bench. 

9 THE WITNESS: Strikes me between 

10 my, I guess, belly button and nipple line. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: So roughly the 

12 bottom of your ribcage. 

13 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So the 

15 wing is approximately bottom of your ribcage. 

16 And how would you be holding the camera? 

17 THE WITNESS: So facing it 

18 perpendicular holding holding the camera 

19 about chest --

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: It appears to me 

21 about a line between your your armpits or 

22 just below your shoulders. Is that correct? 

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1 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Were you using a 

3 cell phone? 

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

6 THE WITNESS: Using a cell phone 

7 looking through the view finder to capture the 

8 image. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. And 

10 aiming down at approximately a 45-degree 

11 angle? 

12 THE WITNESS: Approximately. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, Mr. 

14 Spitzer, do you have any disagreement with the' 

15 description? 

16 MR. SPITZER: No --

17 MR. EMERSON: No. 

18 MR. SPITZER: No disagreement, 

19 Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) From the angle of 

22 the frost and the -- where the fuselage was 

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1 positioned, could you have taken a photograph 

2 capturing both the frost and tail registration 

3 number of the aircraft? 

4 A I believe I could have. 

5 Q Why didn't you? 

6 A You know, again, I wasn't out 

7 doing the surveillance to prepare for a court 

8 case where I would have needed photos that 

9 you've just described. So I wasn't really 

10 thinkirg about -- about a photo that you're 

11 describing. I think --

12 Q Well, you took the photo to 

13 document a potential violation, didn't you? 

14 A That ' s why we take photos is to --

15 Q You're not a tourist. 

16 A -- document the work, and I guess 

17 if needed later it's there so ... 

18 Q But other than your testimony, you 

19 don't have the metadata to correlate the 

20 picture of the wing with the aircraft and you 

21 didn't take a picture of the wing and the 

22 aircraft together to demonstrate in court 

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1 today that this aircraft had this frost on its 

2 wings. Is that right? 

3 A That's right. 

4 Q You testified earlier that you 

5 believed that the crew was aware of the frost 

6 when they pushed back. How did you why 

7 would you think that they were aware of the 

s frost? 

9 A That they were aware? 

10 Q Yes. 

11 A I don't believe I testified to 

12 that. 

13 Q Did I hear you wrong? I'm sorry. 

14 A You must have, yeah. I don't 

15 believe the crew was aware. They were not 

16 aware of the frost when they pushed back. 

17 Q Who else was present on the ramp 

18 when you performed your inspection? 

19 A There were some ground operations 

20 personnel doing their duties loading the bags. 

21 Q Did you point out the frost to 

22 them? 

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1 A No. 

2 Q Did you go around to the front of 

3 the plane and knock on the door and say, 

4 You've got frost on your wings? 

5 A No. 

6 Q So you took that photograph 

7 because you thought they were going to miss it 

8 and just go and take off and you'd be able to 

9 prove it later that there'd been a violation. 

10 A No. 

11 Q That's why you took the photo. 

12 A No. 

13 Q Mr. Perkins, you testified that 

14 this aircraft taxied out to spot 23. We've 

15 blown it up because my eyes aren't as good as 

16 yours. Gate El --here's theE terminal. Do 

17 you agree that El would be south of the 

18 picture and off the picture? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q I 'm going to give you a marker, 

21 and I would like you again to trace the course 

22 that the aircraft took out to spot --

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, if you use 

2 that 

3 Q (By MR. EMERSON) 23. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 

5 have you mark it and mail it to DC. 

6 MR. EMERSON: Okay. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: What you might do 

8 if you have a -- let's see if I've got a 

9 different color. 

10 MR. EMERSON: I have different 

11 colors. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Yeah, let's 

13 -- Mr. Spitzer, just for the record you used 

14 what looks like a black marker. So use 

15 anything but black. 

16 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead with 

17 black. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, if 

19 you need to move so you can see. 

20 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

21 Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: And for both 

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1 Counsel, if one of you approaches the witness, 

2 you've got my -- the Court's permission to 

3 approach the witness as well. 

4 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: What I did in 

7 another case, Mr. Emerson, we had a very large 

8 blowup like you did here and, Mr. Spitzer, 

9 what the Court did is took a copy of it. I've 

10 got a digital camera in my room and we just 

11 took a digital picture of it, marked that as 

12 the exhibit and substituted for the original. 

13 So if we get to that point what I'll do is 

14 retrieve the camera, take a digital picture 

15 and share with you and then you can agree or 

16 disagree whether to substitute the digital 

17 picture for the large blowup. It's a shame. 

18 I was hoping to cover a hole in the wall by 

19 using it. 

20 A Todd, if I do this, you're not 

21 going to be able to see it. It's black on 

22 black. 

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1 Q There you go. There's blue. Go 

2 ahead and make a big fat line there so it can 

3 be seen at a distance, Mr. Perkins. 

4 A The pen's running out of ink. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Works for an 

6 airline. Doesn't have a lot of money. He's 

7 paying all the fines to the FAA. 

8 Have you identified, Mr. Emerson, 

9 this as a particular exhibit? 

10 MR. EMERSON: This is actually in 

11 your book, Your Honor, as --

12 A We've got to switch. 

13 Q Okay. Let's switch to green. I 

14 don't think the airplane changed colors, but 

15 the path might. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this Exhibit 2? 

17 MR. EMERSON: This is Exhibit 2, 

18 Your Honor, yes. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: What we might do 

20 let's have him mark this exhibit, and 

21 during the break we' 11 have him mark the 

22 actual Exhibit 2 using the same color. 

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1 A Okay. You should be able to see 

2 that. 

3 Q Would you also mark where you 

4 positioned your car around spot 23? 

5 A Just like an X works for you? 

6 Q An X would be great. 

7 A (Witness complies.) 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Draw a circle 

9 around the X. The reason I'm saying that is 

10 on one of the prior exhibits, the FAA 

11 exhibits, we put an X for the -- a different 

12 purpose. 

13 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Okay. Mr. 

14 Perkins, it's your testimony that the aircraft 

15 departed El, which is not in the picture but 

16 immediately off the picture on the bottom, and 

17 headed westbound around what we call the Y, 

18 then turned south along the path near the Y 

19 until we get to the fence, then turned 

20 westbound and held at spot 23. Is that 

21 correct? 

22 A That's correct. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: For orientation 

2 purposes, Exhibit 2 is marked -- west would be 

3 the top of the schematic, south would be the 

4 left side of the schematic. 

5 Q (By MR. EMERSON) You testified 

6 that you followed the aircraft and then at 

7 some point became a beam of the aircraft and 

8 took a parallel path. Is that correct? 

9 A That's correct. 

10 Q At what point did you become 

11 parallel with the aircraft? 

12 A I would say-- here's the service 

13 road here that I was driving on. As soon as 

14 I -- as soon as --

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. For the 

16 record, it appears that the taxiway we're 

17 referring to is to the left side of the 

18 schematic, and you've indicated a place to the 

19 -- to the right there's a very close double 

20 line. Is that a service access road, as they 

21 say? 

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, at the top of 

2 that is an X, is that -- with a circle around 

3 it. 

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: And that -- and 

6 that identifies where you parked your car? 

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. And so 

9 you followed the -- the road below which 

10 from west to east would be the -- from the 

11 point of the X with the circle around it, that 

12 would be the service access road that you 

13 traversed. And is it your testimony that you 

14 were roughly a beam of the aircraft on the 

15 right --

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: starboard side 

18 as they say? 

19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

20 Q (By MR. EMERSON) The moment you 

21 became a beam, would you put an X and circle 

22 that and make that No. 1? 

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1 A (Witness complies.) 

2 Q And then please place a No. 2 by 

3 your other X to represent that's where you 

4 finished your pursuit. You were also a beam of 

5 the aircraft there. Correct? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And then the aircraft departed 

8 from spot 23 and you did not follow it any 

9 further. 

10 A That's correct. 

11 Q Look at Exhibit No. 3 and 4, 

12 please. Do you know what time the sun came up 

13 on December 7, 2011, in Salt Lake City? 

14 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

15 Honor. What time the sun came up is not 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, 3 is 3 is 

17 a picture of the aircraft and 4 is the 

18 schematic. 

19 MR. EMERSON: Oh. Is this 9 or a 

20 4, Rob? 

21 MR. SPITZER: That's 9. 

22 MR. EMERSON: That's a 9? 

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1 Q (By MR. EMERSON) I 'm sorry. I 

2 want you to look at 3 and 9. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: The objection's 

4 overruled. 

5 MR. EMERSON: Counsel, has pulled 

6 a fast one on me. 

7 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat your 

8 question? 

9 Q Yes. Looking at Exhibit 9 and 3, 

10 I just want you to take that in. Does it 

11 appear that those photographs -- the aircraft 

12 in those photographs, is it sitting in direct 

13 sunlight or low light conditions or something 

14 else? 

15 A Well, the the photograph was 

16 taken, I guess, with the available light that 

17 that existed that time of the morning. 

18 Q Please describe that light. 

19 A The light would be less than 

20 direct sunlight and not dark enough where you 

21 need a flashlight. 

22 Q Do you know the official sunrise 

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1 time in Salt Lake City December 7, 2011? 

2 A You told me in the deposition it 

3 was 7: 3 0 in the morning. I believe that to be 

4 true. 

5 Q 7:38 I believe I told you. It 

6 sounds like you don't know. As part of your 

7 your your investigation, did you 

8 determine at what time the sun rose in Salt 

9 Lake City 

10 A No. 

11 Q -- December 7, 2011? Thank you. 

12 A No. 

13 Q From this photograph it does not 

14 appear this aircraft is in direct sunlight 

15 then. Is that correct? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q If the photograph was taken at 

18 7:48 and the sunrise was at 7:3 8, would it 

19 appear that this aircraft is in the shade cast 

20 by the shadow of the terminal building or the 

21 mountains? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q I want you to look at my book of 

2 exhibits and flip to No. 1, please. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Your book is 

4 actually Respondent's exhibits for the record. 

5 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Respondent's 

6 exhibits R-1 please. Have you located it? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Would you take that green pen and 

9 circle the aircraft that's parked at Echo 1 in 

10 that photograph? And please do it for His 

11 Honor's exhibit as well. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: What you might do 

13 is whatever terminal is E just put an E in the 

14 center of the structure. So that entire line 

15 is E. Is that correct? 

16 MR. EMERSON: That's correct. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, do 

18 you want to see this or do you trust his 

19 judgment? 

20 MR. SPITZER: I trust his 

21 judgment, Your Honor. 

22 Q (By MR. EMERSON) So you have 

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1 circled where ship November 426 Sierra Whiskey 

2 would have been parked the morning of 

3 September -- of December 7, 2011. 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Is that correct? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q What is immediately east of the 

8 aircraft? 

9 A The terminal building. 

10 Q Do you remember if that is one or 

11 two or three stories high? 

12 A I think it's two stories high. 

13 Q With the sun rising in the east, 

14 is it possible that aircraft is parked in the 

15 shade of the terminal building until such time 

16 that the sun is high enough to supply direct 

17 sunlight to that location? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q When that aircraft pushed back 

20 from the gate, didn't it immediately enter 

21 direct sunlight? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q How long was the taxi time for 

2 this aircraft from gate to takeoff on the 

3 runway? Looks like you're referring to 

4 Exhibit 6. 

5 A Exhibit 6. Eight minutes. 

6 Q Eight minutes from departure to 

7 takeoff, from -- from the out time to the gate 

8 to the off time on the runway? 

9 A You asked me the taxi time, sir, 

10 from the taxi time takeoff, which is 8 

11 minutes. They began their taxi at 1500 Zulu, 

12 which is 8:00 local. They were airborne at 

13 8:08. 

14 Q You're talking from spot 23. 

15 A No. No. The exhibit shows that 

16 the brakes were released at 1451 -- 1452 --

17 Q That also -- excuse me. That also 

18 shows the out time on the ACARS. If you'll 

19 continue across, 1451, that's out. 

20 A Which -- right, which means that 

21 

22 Q We've departed from the gate? 

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1 A No. Which means that the -- the 

2 door is closed, the brakes are released, and 

3 they're pushing back. That's when the out 

4 time is recorded. 

5 Q So we have-- 1451 we have an out. 

6 We have the cargo door closed, we have the 

7 brake release all simultaneous or thereto 

8 within the minute: 1452, push and movement. 

9 So from 1452 to the off time at 1508 --

10 A That's-- that's inaccurate. 1452 

11 to 1458 is their pushback. At the -- at the 

12 conclusion of the pushing back the ground crew 

13 asked the captain to set his brake which is 

14 shown here at 1458. At 1500, 8:00 on the 

15 hour, he released his brakes, began his taxi. 

16 Arrived at spot 23 at 1502, sat there until 

17 1504, released his brakes, taxied for take 

18 off. 

19 Q So this is completely different 

20 than your deposition testimony. I don't know 

21 if you'd like to take a moment to consult with 

22 Counsel so we don't have a big -- bunch of 

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1 confusion or are we completely changing the 

2 testimony? 

3 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, if this 

4 is what he's testifying to -- he's here today. 

5 He's welcome to testify to whatever. 

6 You're welcome to impeach him. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the 

8 testimony that's on the record. 

9 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I'm 

10 approaching with the sealed copy of the 

11 deposition of Inspector Aaron Perkins. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I will 

13 highlight the fact that Inspector Perkins has 

14 been on an extended vacation and didn't return 

15 until Saturday, so he has not had a chance to 

16 review and sign or correct any discrepancies. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm sure Mr. 

18 Emerson will give him the opportunity. 

19 Again I'm giving you that 

20 opportunity, Mr. Spitzer, if you'd like to 

21 consult with your witness because we have 

22 vastly different testimony. And I don't think 

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1 it's really in doubt, but if you want to not 

2 take that opportunity, I'm happy to go 

3 forward. If he's been on vacation and needs 

4 a moment to prepare, I'm happy to give that to 

5 you. 

6 MR. SPITZER: Thank you. It's not 

7 necessary. He can testify as to his 

8 knowledge. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

10 Counsel, in your book you've got 4 

11 exhibits. Am I correct? 

12 MR. EMERSON: I do. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. So the 

14 Court's going to mark this -- I'm going to 

15 mark the outside of the folder as Respondent's 

16 -- you're doing R. 

17 MR. EMERSON: Yes. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: 5. 

19 MR. EMERSON: R-5. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Counsel. 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, do 

22 you remember giving a deposit ion your 

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1 deposition in this matter on Wednesday, 

2 January 15th? 

3 A Yes. Yes. 

4 Q Were you represented by counsel 

5 during that deposition? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Is that counsel here today? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Is that Mr. Spitzer? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q This A CARS report that you've 

12 relied on here in court you also relied on to 

13 create your investigative report. Is that 

14 correct? 

15 A That's correct. 

16 Q You set the timelines in that 

17 investigative report based off this ACARS and 

18 put those into your report. Is that right? 

19 A That's right. 

20 Q At your deposition you testified, 

21 page 61. 

22 "QUESTION: Your report says there 

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1 was a brief delay at spot 23 and then the 

2 airplane left. 

3 "ANSWER: That's correct. It 

4 taxied out to runway three four left. 

5 "Does brief delay mean less than a 

6 minute?" 

7 Your answer: "They were there for 

8 approximately six minutes." 

9 Do you believe that aircraft was 

10 parked at spot 23 for six minutes? 

11 A No. I believe it was there for --

12 for two minutes. 

13 Q Why are you changing your answer 

14 today? 

15 A I don't remember giving you those 

16 exact times. I do --

17 Q Would you like to see your 

18 deposition? 

19 A No, that's not necessary. I do 

2 o remember that I did not have this Exhibit 6 in 

21 front of me when I was answering your 

22 questions in the deposition as I have today in 

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1 front of me. So 

2 Q Okay. 

3 A -- my answers are more accurate 

4 today with this -- this piece of evidence in 

5 my hand. 

6 Q So let's walk through this at --

7 we're back on Exhibit 6. SkyWest data is that 

8 we're out from the gate at 7:51 a.m. local 

9 time. Also the cargo door closes and the 

1 o brake is released. Turn the page. One minute 

11 later there's push/movement. Would you agree 

12 with that? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Then six six minutes later the 

15 brake is set. 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q So this aircraft is moving for six 

18 minutes. Agreed? 

19 A Not necessarily moving. The next 

20 data point for ACARS is brake set. So they 

21 can push the airplane and it can stop, they 

22 can push again. The next data point is brake 

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1 set so. 

2 Q Well, we're not talking about --

3 we're talking about the parking brake with 

4 brake set. Agreed? 

5 A Correct. 

6 Q This isn't the foot pedal to slow 

7 down when you're driving the car or the 

8 airplane. They have come to a full stop. 

9 A Right. 

10 Q Okay. That aircraft was in 

11 movement for six minutes and came to a stop 

12 somewhere, Mr. Perkins. At your deposition 

13 you said it was spot 23. Where is it now if 

14 it wasn't there? 

15 A We're talk -- we're talking about 

16 the pushback here. They released their brakes 

17 at 7:51. Then you get clearance to push. They 

18 get their clearance to push at 752, it 

19 appears, and the pushback begins. 

20 Q I'm with you. 

21 A Okay. 

22 Q The aircraft is in motion. 

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1 A So they're pushing the airplane 

2 back. That process, according to the ACARS, 

3 looks like it took six minutes. 

4 Q You wouldn't set the brake at the 

5 end of pushback. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q You just put the airplane forward 

8 and go. 

9 A No. 

10 Q You're saying that aircraft -- it 

11 moved it took six minutes to push back 100 

12 feet? 

13 A The common pushback procedure is 

14 at the -- when the ground crew is done pushing 

15 the airplane back, they will ask the captain 

16 to set the brake. That's standard pushback 

17 procedure. Meanwhile, they're disconnecting 

18 the towbar, moving the ground equipment out of 

19 the way. The crew is starting engines. Then 

20 they release the brake at 8:00 in the a.m., 

21 8:00 even, and start taxiing. 

22 Q 8:00 even and started taxiing in 

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1 two minutes. It takes them four minutes to 

2 move 100 feet, but then in two minutes they 

3 trace this trail all the way out to spot 23. 

4 That's your testimony? 

5 A I believe that's what the ACARS 

6 are showing us, yes. 

7 Q They must have violated the ramp 

8 speeds. Did you write them a violation for 

9 that? 

10 A No. I don't believe it would take 

11 more than two minutes to taxi that route. 

12 Q Brake is set then at 1502, which 

13 is 8:02? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Then what happened? 

16 A Continue to walk through this 

17 exhibit? 

18 Q Yes. 

19 A Okay. So at 8:04 they-- captain 

20 releases the brakes. They begin their taxi 

21 for the runway. The next thing we see, at 8 : 0 8 

22 they're off the ground. 

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1 Q Okay. So even though the ACARS 

2 data, which you relied upon to make your 

3 report, says that this aircraft was off the 

4 gate at at least 7:52, what do you believe the 

5 correct out time from the gate was? 

6 A What do I believe the correct out 

7 time from the gate? I guess, as we just went 

8 through, I believe that the brake was 

9 released, cargo doors were closed, the 

10 beacon's on, which I believe are the 

11 parameters to record the out time that 

12 happened at 7:52 -- or 7:51, rather. 7:52 

13 they're pushing back, and I believe that the 

14 moment that they're leaving, taxiing away from 

15 the gate 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just -- I don't 

17 mean to interrupt your thought process, but 

18 you're talking about 1752. The ACARS report 

19 shows Zulu time. Is that correct? 

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Zulu is 

22 Greenwich. 

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1 THE WITNESS: Greenwich Mean Time. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what is the 

3 difference between --

4 THE WITNESS: There's a --

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

6 THE WITNESS: There's a seven-hour 

7 difference between. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I want to 

9 make sure the record is clear. So when you 

10 say 7:52, it's actually 1452 Zulu. 

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

13 A So to get back to what I was 

14 saying, Mr. Emerson, I believe the ACAR shows 

15 that the airplane is leaving the gate at 8:00, 

16 or 1500 Zulu. 

17 Q Well, it's moving before then. 

18 Correct? At 7:52 that aircraft is in motion 

19 and doesn't stop moving. 

20 A I don't think that's accurate. If 

21 like I mentioned earlier, during pushback 

22 the next thing that ACARS records is the 

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1 brake set. So when the airplane starts 

2 rolling backwards during push, that's 

3 that's what we have here recorded as the 

4 push/movsnent. The next thing that we see 

5 won't be until the ground operations personnel 

6 tells the captain to set his brake. When he 

7 sets his brake, that's the next recording that 

8 we get on ACARS. 

9 Q Now, your entire testimony of this 

10 taxi time is based off of this ACARS record 

11 which you requested from SkyWest Airlines. Is 

12 that correct? 

13 A My entire testimony for 

14 referencing the times? 

15 Q Yes. 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Do you have an independent 

18 recollection of that airplane taking six 

19 minutes to push back 100 feet? 

20 A I don't think six minutes is an 

21 abnormal long push so --

22 Q Not my question. Do you have an 

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1 independent recollection or did you piece it 

2 together solely by looking at this report? 

3 A My recollection is that's a pretty 

4 standard pushback procedure which could take 

5 six minutes so 

6 Q Did you take notes, your own 

7 contemporaneous notes, of what happened as 

8 this airplane pushed back, stopped, went 

9 forward, any of those? 

10 A No. 

11 Q So your recollection is standard 

12 departure. 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Is that your recollection? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q So when you testified at your 

17 deposition this airplane sat in spot 23 for 

18 six minutes and we've got a further 

19 discussion what were they doing there for so 

20 long and you speculated, well, I think they 

21 were concerned that an FAA inspector was 

22 trailing them and they were trying to figure 

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1 out what to do next. Has your memory changed 

2 in the last three weeks for that timeline? 

3 A No, it hasn't, sir. I have had 

4 the opportunity to review this exhibit that 

5 we're discussing for times which which 

6 clarifies the exact times of the airplane as 

7 it progressed from pushback to takeoff. 

8 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I need 

9 one minute. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit 6 that 

11 you're referring to, you're using an acronym. 

12 What is that acronym? 

13 THE WITNESS: ACARS. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell that. 

15 THE WITNESS: A-C-A-R-S. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which stands for 

17 what? 

18 THE WITNESS: Aircraft 

19 communicationand reporting system, I believe. 

20 (Brief pause.) 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) You said, Mr. 

22 Perkins, you didn't have this report in front 

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1 of you at your deposition. Is that right? 

2 A I don't remember reviewing it if 

3 it was. 

4 Q I'm going to refer you to page 37. 

5 Your answer begins at line 7. Please read 

6 from 7 to 17 out loud. 

7 A "At that point I noted the 

8 presence of frost. I returned to my vehicle, 

9 moved the vehicle so I would not interfere 

10 with the push. Several minutes later I exited 

11 the vehicle to look at the right wing at which 

12 time I noted frost on the right wing. Report 

13 says 7:48 which I think was taken off my 

14 camera. I took a photograph of the wing. I 

15 took a photograph of the tail, returned to my 

16 car and the aircraft pushed back. At 7: 51 

17 ACARS reported an out time. 7:52 showed 

18 movement." 

19 And you said, "Stop right there 

20 for a second. Did you take a photograph of 

21 the frost'' 

22 Q That's fine. 

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1 A Okay. 

2 Q You testified there that the ACARS 

3 report said that the push time -- the out time 

4 was 7:52. Do you remember taking, I don't 

5 know, a 10-minute break so I could make 

6 photocopies of these reports and hand them to 

7 you so you could refer to them during the 

8 deposition? You seemed to be reading off the 

9 ACARS report. 

10 A No. You made copies of statement 

11 of case. Correct? 

12 Q The whole thing. 

13 A Yeah, I I don't think you 

14 handed me the ACARS report. 

15 Q Nevertheless, when the airplane 

16 pushed off the gate, you testified earlier 

17 that it entered direct sunlight? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q And so that exposure to the 

20 sunlight is about 17 minutes. 

21 A Can I do the math for a second? 

22 Q Sure. 

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1 A Yeah, 16 minutes of exposure. 

2 Q The last time you observed the 

3 frost you testified was at 17 -- or at 7: 52 in 

4 the morning. Is that right? 

5 A 7:52 they were pushing when I was 

6 in my car, so, no. I would say the last time 

7 I observed it was when I took the photograph. 

8 Q At 7:48? 

9 A A few minutes prior, right. 

10 Q You have no idea whether that 

11 frost was on the wings by the time they got to 

12 spot 23? 

13 A I can speculate. The temperature 

14 hasn't changed. I did not see the frost on 

15 the wings from the distance I was at in my 

16 car. 

17 Q The temperature hasn't changed? 

18 Is that what you said? 

19 A The --

20 Q You're under -- under the belief 

21 that from the time that airplane was at the 

22 gate to the time it departed that the 

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1 temperature didn't change? 

2 A We have the weather report which 

3 we discussed earlier was updated hourly, so we 

4 wouldn't know what the new temperature was 

5 until the next report came out. 

6 Q How about all that exposure to the 

7 solar radiation, does that tend to sublimate 

8 frost? 

9 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

10 Honor. Calls for question calls for 

11 knowledge beyond this witness's capabilities. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

13 Q (By MR. EMERSON) How many hours 

14 did you have did you say? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. You 

16 can answer the question. 

17 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead and 

18 answer, please. The question is: Would 16 

19 minutes of exposure to solar radiation work to 

20 sublimate the frost that you observed on the 

21 wings? 

22 A I suppose if the temperature was 

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1 increasing, if that was true, then that would 

2 be accurate. 

3 Q Whether or not the temperature was 

4 increasing, would the addition of solar 

5 radiation tend to sublimate frost? 

6 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 

7 Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

9 A I I wouldn 1 t know. It 1 s a 

10 little beyond my realm of knowledge on the 

11 subject. 

12 Q At what point did you know that 

13 this aircraft was not going to get de-iced? 

14 A When they started their final taxi 

15 at 8:04 is when I realized that they were not 

16 intending to de-ice, they were their 

17 intention was for takeoff. 

18 Q That 1 s when they departed spot 2 3? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Were the de-icing operations 

21 happening at this location that morning? 

22 A They weren 1 t that morning, but 

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1 it's typical-- I should say reconfiguration 

2 happens at airports. I've seen it happen that 

3 

4 Q Now, spot 9 is north of these 

5 gates. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q You're telling me this aircraft 

8 headed west and then turned south, directly 

9 away from all the de-icing units -- de-icing 

10 spots. And you thought at that point it was 

11 not going to takeoff, it was -- it could have 

12 still decided to go back and get de-iced? 

13 A As you can see in front of you, 

14 sir, there's-- there's multiple de-ice paths 

15 in the direction they were heading. 

16 Q But no de-icing operations. 

17 A I had had not observed any 

18 myself that morning, no, but it's not to say 

19 that they couldn't have taken place there. 

20 Q They would have called for it on 

21 the radio? 

22 A They would have been in 

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1 communication with icemen, yeah. 

2 Q Did you have your radio with you 

3 that morning? 

4 A I did. 

5 Q Is it a standard surveillance 

6 procedure to listen to de-icing operations on 

7 that radio? 

8 A It is. 

9 Q Did you ever hear that flight crew 

10 call for de-icing? 

11 A I did not. 

12 Q Didn't you know the second that 

13 airplane turned south it wasn't going to go 

14 get de-iced? 

15 A I didn't know that. There's --

16 can I show you an exhibit for this answer? 

17 Q Sure. 

18 A Airport diagram, which one is 

19 that? 

20 Q Probably 4. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: There's 4A and B. 

22 Both are schematics. 

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1 A Actually I believe I gave my 

2 number 4 away. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Here . The Court ' s 

4 going to give him copies of 4, which are the 

5 original exhibits. 

6 A Can I can you approach the 

7 bench so I can show you? 

8 Q Sure. 

9 A So it's common for de-icing to 

10 take place at spots 9, 10, 12 and 13, spot 21. 

11 Those locations I've observed de-icing 

12 numerous times at the airport. The morning 

13 of, de-icing was happening at 9 and 10 and 12 

14 and 13. The frequency for 9 and 10 is 

15 different than the frequency for 12 and 13. 

16 My radio was tuned into spot 9 and 10. 

17 So to answer your question, they 

18 could have been communicating with the icemen 

19 on the frequency for 12 and 13. It's 

20 possible. 

21 Q There was de-icing operations at 

22 12 and 13 on the morning of the 7th as well? 

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1 A Yeah, that -- from my recollection 

2 they were using all four of these spots. 

3 Q Okay. But that aircraft taxis 

4 west and then would have to take a sharp right 

5 turn to make it over to the active de-icing 

6 pads that morning. Instead you see it took a 

7 hard left, head south and make its way to the 

8 runway. When that airplane turned left, 

9 didn't you suspect it was not on its way to 

10 get de-iced? 

11 A Like I mentioned, there are de-ice 

12 pads over here and reconfiguration is 

13 certainly possible. 

14 Q But they're not de-icing there on 

15 the 7th. You testified to that. They exist 

16 but the trucks aren't there and the fluid 

17 isn't there, so they're not getting de-iced 

18 there. Right? 

19 A As it turns out, no, they weren't. 

20 Q When that airplane turned away 

21 from the de-icing pads, why didn't you call 

22 with your radio to inform it that it had frost 

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1 on its wings? 

2 A Why didn't I call the crew? 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A The crew was not -- I didn't hear 

5 the crew on on the spot nine de-icing 

6 frequency. 

7 Q You had no ability to contact the 

8 crew with your radio? 

9 A The crew would be monitoring most 

10 likely. You can ask them. But they were 

11 probably monitoring the ground frequency for 

12 ATC, and their other radio was most likely 

13 tuned into ops. Neither of those frequencies 

14 I had. 

15 Q Your radio transponds? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Is there anybody you could have 

18 called to alert this aircraft that they had a 

19 potentially hazardous situation on their 

20 wings? 

21 A I didn't have the frequencies for 

22 ATC who was in direct communication with --

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1 with the crew. 

2 Q You work for the FAA. You don't 

3 know how to call ATC? 

4 A I don't have the the 

5 frequenciesmemorizedraisedat Salt Lake City 

6 International. 

7 Q That's because you were new or--

8 A I was never based at Salt Lake 

9 City as a pilot. It's not something that you 

10 would memorize as an inspector. 

11 Q How about ground operations 

12 A Same --

13 Q -- can you call them? 

14 A Same answer. These frequencies 

15 are -- are distributed to the crews inside the 

16 flight deck. That's how information is given 

17 to the pilots. 

18 Q You knew the de- icing transponders 

19 for at least 9 and 10, which you were 

20 observing. Why didn't you call the de-icing 

21 operations and say, You have an airplane 

22 departing with frost on its wings, you should 

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1 stop it? Why didn't you call the frequency 

2 you had? 

3 A I knew that they were not in 

4 communication with the aircraft. 

5 Q How did you know that? 

6 A Because I had the frequency -- I 

7 was monitoring that frequency. I knew that 

8 they were not in communication with the crew. 

9 Q If they're de-icing SkyWest 

10 aircraft, do you think they'd have the ability 

11 to get in touch with that aircraft, call 

12 operations? They're in touch with operations 

13 certainly. 

14 A Possibly, yes. 

15 Q How about your cell phone, was it 

16 other than taking photographs, was it 

17 operable that morning? 

18 A Yes, it was. 

19 Q Could you have called a number for 

20 air traffic control? 

21 A Had I had it, which I wish I did 

22 Mr. Emerson, I wish I had these numbers, 

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1 but I didn't, didn't have the resource to make 

2 that telephone call. 

3 Q How about anybody at the SkyWest 

4 operations department, could you have called 

5 anybody in St. George-- dispatch, Mr. Losee? 

6 Did you have any numbers for any SkyWest 

7 personnel in your possession? 

8 A At that time in my career I didn't 

9 have any of those numbers on my phone which is 

10 not the story today. I have all the 

11 applicable numbers for for the Salt Lake 

12 City tower, operations. I have Mr. Losee's 

13 phone number. I have those numbers now. 

14 Q How about 911, could you call them 

15 and say, Could somebody contact the airport 

16 because I don't know how, they've got an 

17 airplane that's about to leave in a hazardous 

18 condition? 

19 A I didn't think of 911. 

20 Q After this aircraft departed this 

21 spot, where did it go next? 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're saying this 

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1 spot. Which --

2 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Spot 23. Taxied 

3 onto the taxiway? 

4 A Taxied straight, made a left on 

5 the taxiway, taxied down to the end of the 

6 runway. 

7 Q There are two taxiways here. You 

8 could have followed this aircraft down an 

9 adjoining taxiway-- parallel taxiway, gotten 

10 ahead of it and stopped it. 

11 A No. The service road from my car, 

12 it stops where my X in the No. 2 is. That's 

13 as far as I can drive without being in 

14 communication with with air traffic 

15 control. 

16 Q So it's safer to let that airplane 

17 go than to stop it, run out there with your 

18 car and cut it off? 

19 A Being a pilot myself, 

2 o understanding the complexity of airports and 

21 air traffic, I knew that I didn't have the 

22 full picture of the operational environment, 

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1 other planes corning in and exiting the runway 

2 after landing and so forth. I felt that 

3 driving my car unannounced on an active 

4 taxiway or runway or parallel taxiway could be 

5 a hazard. 

6 Q It was a clear day. Situational 

7 awareness, you don't believe you could have 

8 safely driven your car down in -- there's no 

9 other aircraft. We didn't get to that, but 

10 that airplane immediately taxied and took off. 

11 It's not waiting in line. Isn't that right, 

12 Mr. Perkins? 

13 A That's correct. 

14 Q That's an empty taxiway. You 

15 thought you were going to encounter an 

16 airplane or couldn't avoid one? These are 

17 large objects. It was still unsafe to drive 

18 down an empty taxiway and get ahead of that 

19 airplane and say, Whoa, whoa? 

20 A I think you're understating the 

21 complexity of an international airport. Being 

22 by yourself in a car, not in communication 

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1 with the tower, you don't understand where the 

2 airplanes are. The airplanes could be landing 

3 and exiting the runway. 

4 Q Well 

5 A To drive unannounced 

6 Q no, that aircraft departed to 

7 the north. 

8 A Yeah. So --

9 Q And -- and the taxiway is going 

10 all the way down to three four left. Do you 

11 think that airplane is going to come and land 

12 at the south and exit and you're going to 

13 encounter it there? 

14 A No, an airplane landing on three 

15 four left and exiting. 

16 Q Right. And I don't want you on 

17 the runway. My question is: Why didn't you 

18 use the taxiways where all flow is headed 

19 south? 

20 A When airplanes land they use 

21 taxiways to exit the runway. 

22 Q Right. And so do you believe that 

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1 there's a taxiway that they would-- airplane 

2 would enter short of the airport? You're 

3 telling me an airplane could land and hit a 

4 taxiway and then taxi up this way? That's been 

5 your experience at Salt Lake? 

6 A Typically they're exiting farther 

7 down the field, that's true. 

8 Q You didn't think that frost was 

9 still there, did you, Mr. Perkins, not at 

10 takeoff? Isn't that true? 

11 A That's not true. I I would 

12 really have no way of knowing that. What I do 

13 know is that the temperature-- it was still 

14 cold. It was a super cold morning that day. 

15 So for that frost to sublimate and go away 

16 just because, I didn't believe that. 

17 Q You're five days off of the 

18 completion of your training. You're alone in 

19 this car. You didn't know what to do, did 

20 you? 

21 A The training at the FAA is is 

22 good. I did know what to do. 

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1 Q Who was your boss at the time? 

2 A Jason Crane. 

3 Q Jason Crane in the courtroom 

4 today? 

5 A Yes, he is. 

6 Q Mr. Crane testified in the 

7 de- icing case that Judge Goodwin heard several 

8 years ago. He testified if he believed an 

9 airplane had any contaminate on its wings he 

10 would move his car in front of that airplane 

11 to stop it. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

13 Honor. Relevancy. 

14 MR. EMERSON: Well, let me finish 

15 the question. 

16 Q (By MR. EMERSON) He testified that 

17 he would move his airplane -- I mean, move his 

18 car in front of that airplane to stop it. He 

19 was your boss at that time. Did you receive 

20 that training from him, to stop an aircraft 

21 with your car if you believed there was 

22 contaminate on the wings? 

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1 A No. 

2 Q Do you believe that Mr. Crane's 

3 instructions or belief that he should stop an 

4 airplane with contaminate on its wings is an 

5 unsafe practice? 

6 A I think it varies by the 

7 situation. Each situation is different. And 

8 Mr. Crane did not do my de-ice training. That 

9 wasn't his function as my supervisor. 

10 Q But he was your supervisor at the 

11 time. Is that right? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q So when you were done with this 

14 element performance inspection, you would go 

15 turn it into Mr. Crane and talk about the 

16 actions that you took. 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Was he concerned that you didn't 

19 stop the aircraft? 

20 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

21 Honor. That calls for deliberative process. 

22 It's privileged. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's beyond the 

2 scope of the case. I don't think the actions 

3 of a supervisor I understand where you're 

4 trying to go on cross, Counsel. 

5 MR. EMERSON: Well, I don't think 

6 it's deliberative process, but Your Honor is 

7 saying it's beyond the scope. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it doesn't 

9 help me get to the issue. The issue is 

10 whether there's a violation and what 

11 training from the supervisor you could 

12 argue that in an administrative proceeding 

13 it's relevant, but it's beyond so it's not 

14 helping me get to the issue. 

15 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Perkins, the 

16 only way you let that airplane go is if you 

17 really don't believe that frost is on the 

18 wings. Isn't that true? 

19 A Can you say that again, please? 

20 Q The only way you let that airplane 

21 depart, short of using all of the resources 

22 that we've just documented in good 

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1 conscience the only way you can let that 

2 airplane go is if you had believed that frost 

3 has sublimated. There are 44 souls on board. 

4 You can't possibly believe there's frost on 

5 those wings and let that airplane depart. 

6 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

7 Honor. This is just argumentative. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. It's 

9 cross. 

10 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead and 

11 answer. 

12 A No, I had deep, deep concern. I 

13 still do to this day thinking about the events 

14 of -- of what transpired. I was extremely 

15 relieved when I watched the airplane climb out 

16 safely. It's a position I never want to be in 

17 or witness again in my life. I told you 

18 several minutes ago that there was no way for 

19 me to know if the frost sublimated during that 

2 0 taxi . I don't know. 

21 Q In fact you don't have any 

22 evidence after 7:48 in the morning whether 

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1 there's frost on those wings. The airplane 

2 departed at 8:08. Is that correct? 

3 A That's correct. 

4 Q So you've got 20 full minutes, a 

5 gap, of knowing whether or not that frost was 

6 still there. Is that right? 

7 A That's right. 

8 Q Did you attempt to obtain other 

9 evidence of the presence of frost on the wings 

10 other than what you've presented here today? 

11 A No. 

12 Q Did you attempt to get a videotape 

13 from Salt Lake International Airport? 

14 A Later after the interview of the 

15 first officer, my office wanted to see if his 

16 statement was accurate if he did a preflight 

17 inspection, so we went over and looked at the 

18 tape to see if we could verify that or not. 

19 Q Could you? 

20 A No. The video that the airport 

21 had was inconclusive. 

22 Q Later that day you interviewed the 

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1 flight crew. Is that correct? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Captain Thomas Gibbs? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q What questions did you ask him? 

6 A We -- the three inspectors, myself 

7 included and the flight crew -- met in the 

s back of the airplane. 

9 Q Would you name the three 

10 inspectors, please? 

11 A Douglas Stow and Benjamin Blauer 

12 

13 Q Okay. 

14 A and myself. 

15 We met in the back of the 

16 airplane. It was kind of an open forum 

17 roundtable type talk. We introducedourselves 

18 and explained I'd had some concern about the 

19 flight that they -- they took earlier in the 

20 day. Shared what we had seen, and each of 

21 them separately provided some information. 

22 Q Did you show them the photograph 

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1 on your telephone? 

2 A I did. 

3 Q As it pertained to Mr. Gibbs, do 

4 you know whether or not he performed the 

5 walk-around? That's Captain Gibbs. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Did 

7 you say walk-around? 

8 MR. EMERSON: Yes, the preflight 

9 walk-around. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have a 

11 disability, hearing disability, every once in 

12 a while just so you know. 

13 A Captain Gibbs indicated that his 

14 first officer had performed the walk-around. 

15 Q So he remained in the cockpit? 

16 A I don't know where the captain 

17 would be. We didn't get to that 

18 Q He didn't tell you? 

19 A to that detail. 

20 Q Did he tell you that he saw his 

21 first officer leave the cockpit to perform a 

22 preflight walk-around? 

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1 A From my interview statement, what 

2 I have written down is that the captain told 

3 me that his first officer did the walk-around. 

4 So that's -- that's as far as I could say. 

5 Q Would it be typical for the 

6 captain to verify that with the first officer 

7 when he returns, that he performed the 

8 preflight walk-around? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q And that there was nothing amiss? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q And if they needed de-icing, the 

13 first officer would report that to the 

14 captain? 

15 A That's correct. 

16 Q Did Mr. Gibbs tell you that his 

17 first officer reported frost on the wings? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Did he tell you that Mr. -- that 

20 the first officer departed the second time 

21 from the cockpit? 

22 A No. I don't recall that. 

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1 Q Did you find Captain Gibbs's 

2 testimony to you to be credible? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q You then interviewed the first 

5 officer, Dennis Burr? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Did you show him the photographs 

8 on your phone? 

9 A I don't remember if the first 

10 officer saw my phone or not. I only clearly 

11 recall showing it to the captain. 

12 Q Did you ask him if he performed 

13 the preflight walk-around? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q What was his response? 

16 A He said that he had done the 

17 preflight walk-around. 

18 Q Did you ask him if he performed a 

19 tactile test of the surfaces of the aircraft? 

20 A I asked him that and he said that 

21 he did. 

22 Q The leading edge, did he confirm 

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1 he touched the leading edge? 

2 A He said he touched the leading 

3 edge and the flaps. 

4 Q How about the areas in the 

5 photograph where frost is represented, did you 

6 ask him if he touched those areas? 

7 A He -- he want -- he wanted to see 

8 it for himself, the areas, so I went out there 

9 to the right wing and showed him. I don't 

10 recall asking him pointblank if he touched 

11 that area. But I do know that when I showed 

12 him the area he didn't say either way if he 

13 had -- had touched that area or not. 

14 Q So he could have but didn't say. 

15 You didn't ask him did you touch this area? 

16 A He didn't say. 

17 Q And you didn't ask. 

18 A Right. 

19 Q Did you find Dennis Burr's 

20 statement to be credible? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Do you believe that he performed a 

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1 preflight walk-around? 

2 A I believe he did. 

3 Q Do you believe that he performed 

4 the tactile test? 

5 A I believe he -- he did, yes. 

6 Q So is it your belief the frost 

7 formed sometime after the flight crew had done 

8 their walk-arounds and released the first 

9 officer? 

10 A That's my opinion. 

11 Q Did you also interview Dan 

12 Anderson? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Who was he? 

15 A Dan Anderson was a a company 

16 pilot on the airplane on that flight. 

17 Q He was a passenger? 

18 A He was a passenger on the flight, 

19 yes. 

20 Q Why did you talk to him? 

21 A He submitted a report to the chief 

22 pilot, Shane Losee, stating that he he 

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1 didn't see frost on the wings. 

2 Q So you interviewed him about that 

3 statement? 

4 A Excuse me. 

5 Yes. We called him and asked him 

6 several questions about his experience. 

7 Q Do you know about what time Mr. 

8 Anderson entered the aircraft? 

9 A He said he he boarded 2 0 

10 minutes before pushback which would be about 

11 7:31 a.m. 

12 Q And do you know what seat he was 

13 in? 

14 A He said he was sitting in 6A. 

15 Q Are you able to view the wings 

16 from the window on 6A? 

17 A You can see a part of the wing, 

18 yes. 

19 Q Could you see the part of the wing 

20 represented in these photographs that have 

21 frost on the wings? 

22 A Sure. You could see it from that 

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1 that seat. 

2 Q Did he report to you that he saw 

3 frost on the wings? 

4 A He said he did not see frost on 

5 the wings. 

6 Q Did you believe him when he told 

7 you that? 

8 A I believe that -- his statement to 

9 be true. 

10 Q So the violation that we have, Mr. 

11 Perkins, was it that they pushed back from the 

12 gate with frost on the wings? Is that a 

13 violation? 

14 A No. Airplanes push back all the 

15 time with frost on their wings. That's not a 

16 violation. 

17 Q Was it a violation not to turn 

18 right and head to the de-icing paths 9 or 10? 

19 A That's not a violation. 

20 Q The violation doesn't occur until 

21 that airplane lifts off the ground. Is that 

22 right? 

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1 A The 121 violation, that's 

2 accurate, yes. 

3 Q Were there other violations that 

4 happened prior to the aircraft taking off? 

5 A The regulations say that the 

6 carrier must comply with their ops specs. 

7 119.5 says that. 

8 Q At what point do you believe 

9 SkyWest did not comply with its ops specs? 

10 A When they did not de-ice the 

11 airplane. Their manual says that if if 

12 there's contamination on the wings, then they 

13 should be de-iced. That did not happen. 

14 Q Well, that aircraft could have 

15 taxied to the end of the runway and turned 

16 around and come back and gotten de-iced and 

17 not been in violation? 

18 A Absolutely. 

19 Q So the moment the violation occurs 

20 is when the airplane leaves the ground with 

21 frost on its wlngs. Is that correct? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Otherwise you believe that the 

2 flight crew complied with the de-icing program 

3 in SkyWest's operations specifications. 

4 A The flight crew, yes. 

5 Q So are there any other violations 

6 that occur prior to that aircraft taking off 

7 the ground? 

8 A No. 

9 MR. EMERSON: Nothing further, 

10 Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. It 1 s -- Mr. 

12 Spitzer, you're entitled to redirect. I'm 

13 going to suggest that because it's after 12:00 

14 that we defer redirect until we return from 

15 lunch. 

16 I'm going to instruct the witness 

17 not to discuss your testimony with 

18 whatsoever with anyone including Counsel, and 

19 ask you to be back sometime between 1:30 and 

20 a quarter to, the bench, and then Mr. Spitzer 

21 will have the opportunity to -- it's going to 

22 take about an hour for lunch. Between 1:15 

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1 1: 15 and 1: 3 0. And then once everybody is 

2 back in courtroom, whether it's 1: 15 or 1: 3 0, 

3 we'll go back on the record. 

4 MR. SPITZER: We'll aim for 1:15, 

5 Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

7 MR. SPITZER: We'll aim for 1:15, 

8 Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

10 So, sir, you're excused with that 

11 admonition not to discuss your testimony with 

12 anybody. 

13 We'll go off the record. We will 

14 resume at approximately 1: 15. We're off the 

15 record. 

16 (A break was taken from 12:11 to 

17 1:25.) 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

19 record. Remind the witness you're still under 

20 oath. 

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer? 

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1 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

2 Honor. Your Honor, I just have a few questions 

3 for this witness. 

4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

5 BY MR. SPITZER: 

6 Q Inspector Perkins, you testified 

7 during the cross-examinationabout Exhibit No. 

8 6. Would you mind turning to that exhibit? 

9 A Okay. 

10 Q And just as a formality, Your 

11 Honor, Inspector Perkins, have you talked to 

12 anybody about your testimony today during the 

13 recess that we had for the last hour and a 

14 half? 

15 A No. 

16 Q Now, turning to Exhibit 6, could 

17 you explain for the Court what it means when 

18 the aircraft is identified as push/movement? 

19 This is on page No. 3. 

20 A To my knowledge, the the 

21 push/movement is generated by moving of the 

22 wheel, which is an input for the ACARS system 

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1 to record the time. 

2 Q You also testified that the brake 

3 set -- that that indicated that the pilots had 

4 applied the aircraft's parking brake and that 

5 six minutes had elapsed between the record of 

6 push/movement and the brake set. Do you have 

7 any explanation for what the aircraft was 

8 doing during that period? 

9 A Yeah. So a typical pushback 

10 procedure entails the ground crew using a tug 

11 or a pushback cart, moving the airplane 

12 rearward, typically at a fairly slow speed, 

13 out to a predetermine:i location, that the 

14 length of pushback can vary by the position of 

15 the gates. Sometimes the pushback is quite 

16 far. Sometimes it's close. Sometimes the 

17 location of the pushback is dictated by air 

18 traffic or ground control that's controlling 

19 the ramp. So during this six minutes all of 

20 that was taking place. 

21 Q Is it customary for the aircraft 

22 to be moving for the entire duration of the --

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1 of the push/movement record and the brake set 

2 record? 

3 A I guess you could survey all the 

4 pushes out there on a given day, and I think 

5 the majority of the pushes would be they start 

6 moving for a period of time, then they stop at 

7 the end of the pushback where the the 

8 ground personnel will ask them to set the 

9 brake. There's other instances where they may 

10 have to stop for whatever reason and start 

11 again so ... 

12 Q Is it possible for the aircraft 

13 while it's being pushed back under power of 

14 the tug to come to a stop without applying its 

15 own brakes? 

16 A Say that again, please. 

17 Q Is it possible that the aircraft 

18 could come to a stop during the pushback 

19 maneuver without the aircraft using its 

20 aircraft brakes? 

21 A That's the common practice. The 

22 the crew isn't-- is not using their-- the 

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1 foot pedal brakes during pushback. The speed 

2 and the push is controlled by -- by the ground 

3 tug. 

4 Q During your cross-examination you 

5 testified that the indication "brake set" 

6 meant that the push back had completed. How 

7 do you know that? 

8 A That's the next logical sequence 

9 of a pushback procedure. Just having been a 

10 captain and having done this many times, 

11 they'll release the brakes, start the push. 

12 When the push is complete, the ground 

13 personnel will ask the captain to set the 

14 brakes. 

15 Q And do the ground personnel ask 

16 the captain to set the brakes prior to 

17 removing the towbar? 

18 A That's -- that's the order. The 

19 brakes are set first, and then the ground crew 

20 goes about disconnecting the towbar. 

21 Q Now, during your cross-examination 

22 testimony you stated that you believed that 

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1 the aircraft had been in direct sunlight for 

2 16 minutes. Is that correct? 

3 A So the assumption that the 16 

4 minutes if they started their pushback at 

5 1452 Zulu, or 7:52 local, from that point they 

6 would be clear of the building that was asked 

7 in that question. So from 7:52 to 8:08, 16 

8 minutes. 

9 Q So if the -- if the aircraft had 

10 been pushed back from the gate a tiny bit and 

11 then stopped, do you recall or is it possible 

12 that the aircraft was stopped in an area that 

13 wasn't in direct sunlight? 

14 A I don't recall. I couldn't say 

15 either way if that -- if that happened during 

16 pushback. 

17 Q Is it your testimony that the 

18 aircraft at its gate was in direct shade? 

19 A Based on the -- the photo that was 

20 provided by Mr. Emerson, yes, I believe that 

21 -- looking at the size of the building and 

22 and where the airplane would be parked, I 

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1 believe that's an accurate answer. 

2 Q So is it fair to say that the 16 

3 minutes that you -- that you identified as the 

4 aircraft being in direct sunlight represents 

5 an absolute maximum amount of time that the 

6 aircraft was sitting in direct sunlight before 

7 it took off? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Inspector Perkins, you were asked 

10 questions about the aircraft's solar heating 

11 during the taxi time. Is there anything in 

12 SkyWest' s de-icing program that envisions the 

13 aircraft being heated by solar heat and 

14 de-iced that way? 

15 A No. 

16 Q Does the SkyWest de-icing program, 

17 to your understanding, leave any room for 

18 anything other than de-icing once the frost or 

19 other frozen contamination is discovered on 

20 the wing prior to takeoff? 

21 A No. Rob, actually I'd like to 

22 correct that. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: There's no 

2 question pending. 

3 THE WITNESS: Sorry? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: There's no 

5 question pending. 

6 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Inspector, I 

7 understand that you want to make a correction 

8 to your previous answer. Could you explain to 

9 the Court what your correction is? 

10 A Yes. There are other methods 

11 outlined in their manual for de-icing. I'm 

12 not sure if I have it here with me, but --

13 okay. Mechanical removal is one way. Like a 

14 forced air de-ice system is contained in the 

15 ground de-ice program. That's another method 

16 that they could have used that's approved 

17 besides de-ice fluid. 

18 Q So besides mechanical removal, 

19 forced air removal, and applying de- ice fluid 

20 to the wings, is there any other way for 

21 SkyWest to take off an aircraft after frost 

22 has been identified on a wing without 

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1 conducting one of those three methods? 

2 A No. 

3 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, no 

4 further questions for this witness. 

5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

6 BY MR. EMERSON: 

7 Q Can't the flight crew wait for the 

8 frost to naturally sublimate and then take off 

9 the aircraft and be in compliance with the 

10 de-icing program? 

11 A I'm sorry. The first part of your 

12 question? 

13 Q Couldn't a flight crew, this one 

14 or any other, wait for the frost to naturally 

15 sublimate before taking off and still be 

16 within compliance of the de-icing program? 

17 A I suppose that would be an option. 

18 I don't think that is spelled out as clearly 

19 as you put it in the de-icing manual. 

20 Q Do you believe it would be a 

21 violation if they noticed frost on their wings 

22 and didn't have de-icing available to go park 

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1 the airplane in the sunlight, wait for the 

2 frost to disappear, and then take that 

3 aircraft off? Would that violate the de-icing 

4 program? 

5 A No, because their preflight 

6 inspection wouldn't wouldn't they 

7 wouldn't see frost on the wings or 

8 contamination. So, no, thatwouldn'tviolate 

9 it. 

10 Q So allowing the sun to obliterate 

11 the frost is one acceptable way to clear the 

12 wings? 

13 A If it was planned and they were to 

14 do a to comply with the rest of the 

15 program, including the preflight inspection, 

16 then under that situation, sure. 

17 Q I want to draw your attention back 

18 to this exhibit. 

19 MR. EMERSON: Which I believe is 

20 No. 2 in the book, Your Honor. 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) We have your 

22 testimony that the airplane parked here at 

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1 spot 23. The nose of the airplane would be 

2 headed west, the tail east. Is that correct? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And your testimony here today is 

5 it's for two minutes, at your deposition six 

6 minutes, but either way this airplane is 

7 parked here for some amount of time. 

8 A Yes. 

9 MR. SPITZER: I'm going to object 

10 to this, Your Honor. This is outside the 

11 scope of my redirect. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, your 

13 redirect was actually outside the scope as 

14 well. I'm going to allow limited exploration. 

15 Overruled. 

16 MR. EMERSON: Mr. Spitzer was 

17 talking about using sunshine to remove frost, 

18 and that's where this question is headed. 

19 Q (By MR. SPITZER) So parked here, 

20 headed north, tail west, those wings are 

21 cambered. Is that correct? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q That means they are tilted in a 

2 in a direction they're tilted downward? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q In this case they would be tilted 

5 more to the east? 

6 A That's correct. 

7 Q With the sun rising and sitting 

8 there from two to six minutes, they would be 

9 bathed in sunlight for two to six minutes at 

10 a better angle than if they were flat wings. 

11 Yes? 

12 A At a better angle than flat wings, 

13 yes. 

14 MR. EMERSON: No further 

15 questions. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further 

17 questions of this witness? 

18 MR. SPITZER: Just one question, 

19 Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll allow one. 

21 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

22 BY MR. SPITZER: 

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1 Q Inspector, opposing counsel has 

2 just asked if the aircraft was sitting for two 

3 to six minutes. Looking at Exhibit 6, can you 

4 tell how long the aircraft was waiting at spot 

5 23? 

6 A Well, they set the brake at 8:02 

7 local time, 1502 Zulu. They released the 

8 brake at 1504, or 8:04 local. So I would say 

9 two minutes waiting. 

10 MR. SPITZER: Thank you. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you I 

12 assume that there's no further use for this 

13 witness at this time. Is that correct? 

14 MR. SPITZER: Yes. That's 

15 correct, Your Honor. We will release. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you're 

17 excused. I'm going to instruct you not to 

18 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 

19 the conclusion of the hearing. You can leave 

20 the courtroom. It's up to the FAA attorneys 

21 whether you need to stay or not. You may step 

22 down. 

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1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

2 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we don 1 t 

3 anticipate or the Agency will not call 

4 Inspector Perkins again. We'd ask at this 

5 point that he be released from the sequester 

6 rules. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's I'm 

8 excusing him from the court. Whether you need 

9 him again is totally up to you. 

10 MR. SPITZER: With your leave, 

11 Your Honor, he will stay in the courtroom. 

12 MR. EMERSON: That's, okay by me 

13 if Mr. Perkins wishes to remain in the 

14 courtroom. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, with the 

16 understanding if he remains in the courtroom, 

17 the Court will prohibit him from further 

18 taking the stand. The Court doesn't --

19 MR. EMERSON: I'm sorry, Your 

20 Honor. Did you say he may still take the 

21 stand? 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: No, he may not. 

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1 MR. EMERSON: No, I -- if he wants 

2 to stay in the courtroom, I want him barred 

3 from further testimony. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that's what 

5 I just said much more eloquently than you. 

6 MR. EMERSON: I have an even worse 

7 hearing problem than you. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: I can tell. It's 

9 all the pounding you get in court. Right? 

10 Call your next witness, Mr. 

11 Spitzer. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

13 Honor. The Administrator calls Tom Bond. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 

15 your right hand. 

16 (Witness sworn.) 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

18 State your full name and spell your first and 

19 last name. 

20 THE WITNESS: Full name is Thomas 

21 Hadley Bond. Last name is B-0-N-D. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

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1 MR. SPITZER: Thank you Your 

2 Honor. 

3 THOMAS H . BOND, 

4 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

5 was examined and testified as follows: 

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. SPITZER: 

8 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Bond. Could 

9 you please state your current occupation? 

10 A I work for the FAA. I'm the chief 

11 scientist and technical advisor -- advisor for 

12 flight environmental icing. 

13 Q And how long have you hold that --

14 held that position for? 

15 A I've held that position for seven 

16 and a half years. 

17 Q Prior to working at the FAA what 

18 was your occupation? 

19 A Prior to working at the FAA, in 

20 regards to aviation I was an airframe and 

21 power plant mechanic for a year and a half 

22 after getting a certificate degree for two 

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1 years from the Williamsport Area Community 

2 College in Pennsylvania. 

3 Q After the -- after you worked as 

4 an A&P mechanic, did you obtain any other 

5 education? 

6 A I went back to school at Penn 

7 State University and got a degree in 

8 mechanical engineering, and I went to work for 

9 NASA in 1983. 

10 Q What were your job 

11 responsibilities when you started working at 

12 NASA in 1983? 

13 A In 1983 I started out working on 

14 intermittent combustion engines for three 

15 years until the program was cancelled. At 

16 that point in 1986 until 2007 I worked in 

17 aircraft icing, and during that period of time 

18 I had multiple jobs and responsibilities and 

19 eventually became the branch chief of the area 

20 of the work area for the last 10 years of 

21 my duration at -- at NASA. 

22 Q While you were employed at NASA on 

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1 icing issues, what type of projects were you 

2 engaged in? 

3 A When I first started out in the --

4 in the icing branch, I worked as a flight test 

5 engineer for approximately three years flying 

6 the NASA research aircraft -- flying in the 

7 back of the NASA research aircraft. It was a 

8 Twin Otter. 

9 And during that period of time I 

10 eventually transitioned to working in a 

11 what's called a close icing wind tunnel. That 

12 wind tunnel is an aircraft icing wind tunnel 

13 owned by the United States government. It's 

14 called the icing research tunnel and it's --

15 we use it to test different kinds of work: The 

16 development for invalidation of computational 

17 tools, experimental methods for aircraft 

18 icing, improvements in ice protection and 

19 detection technologies. 

20 We did support for the NTSB for a 

21 number of accident investigations, 

22 microphysics studies in the tunnel to develop 

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1 capabilities to improve computer codes. And 

2 we worked with aerospace industry aircraft and 

3 engine manufacturers to develop new 

4 capabilities and new technologies. 

5 Q After you were employed in that 

6 function at NASA, did you -- did you change 

7 positions at all? 

8 A I changed positions, but I stayed 

9 in the icing branch for the rest of my 

10 duration at NASA. So during that period of 

11 time, after I worked in the tunnel for about 

12 six or seven years, my principal jobs became 

13 a project engineer, and I managed research 

14 projects with the United States Air Force, 

15 with U.S. Army, with other federal agencies, 

16 and with -- within the NASA project system. 

17 So we would work on improvements in general 

18 aviation, improvements to any other new 

19 technologies including support for accident 

20 investigations including the ATR-72 Roselawn 

21 crash in 1994. 

22 Q You mentioned that you had worked 

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1 at the FAA -- or you currently are working at 

2 the FAA. What do your responsibility 

3 withdrawn. 

4 What do your responsibilities at 

5 the FAA consist of? 

6 A Can I add something from NASA 

7 because it directly-- directly relates to the 

8 FAA responsibilities? 

9 Q If that will help you explain your 

10 FAA 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just answer the 

12 question. 

13 A Okay. My responsibilities in 

14 within the FAA are directly related to 

15 supporting aircraft certification services and 

16 flight standard services in regards to 

17 continuing operational safety. I oversee all 

18 the research for the organization and direct 

19 it through the FAA tech center, which is the 

20 implementer of the research programs. I'm 

21 responsible for the development of closeout of 

22 the 1997 aircraft icing plan and the 

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1 generation of the 2012 new aircraft icing 

2 plan, the directions for strategic initiatives 

3 for new technology and its application. 

4 I worked on rulemaking processes 

5 for new icing regulations from the time I 

6 entered till the completion of the proposed 

7 rulemaking. I followed up with evaluations 

8 and contact with the NTSB in regards to what 

9 that rule -- some of the conditions were for 

10 the atmospheric conditions. And in the last 

11 two to three years I've spent a good portion 

12 of my time working on ice crystal icing 

13 conditions associated with engine damage and 

14 air data. 

15 Q Have you had chance in your career 

16 to observe the formation and subsequent 

17 melting or sublimation of frost on an 

18 aircraft's wing? 

19 A My -- my general experience for 

20 that is mostly through ice and wind tunnel 

21 testing where we would test in a tunnel. We'd 

22 collect ice on an airfoil, and there are 

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1 conditions where frost would develop. And 

2 with those conditions we would go out -- once 

3 you shut the tunnel down, go out and make 

4 measurements of the leading edge ice, document 

5 the -- the nature of the ice structures. And 

6 there are cases where the ice may stay on the 

7 aircraft -- the wing section for a long period 

8 of time. 

9 I 've had experience with frost 

10 through testing with the National Research 

11 Council Canada where we have a partnership 

12 between the FAA and Transport Canada Civil ' 

13 Aviation for the development of new ground 

14 de-icing methodologiffi for understanding 

15 fluids' performance and the aerodynamic 

16 effects associated with those fluids. That's 

17 principally where I have my experience in 

18 dealing with frost. 

19 Q Have you had any occasion to study 

20 or measure the effects of frost on the wing of 

21 a Bombardier CRJ aircraft? 

22 A For the last three years we've had 

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1 a project between Transport Canada and the FAA 

2 where we contacted Bombardier and asked them 

3 to work with us to develop a series of tests 

4 in the National Research Council Canada's open 

5 icing wind tunnel with a CRJ equivalent 

6 airfoil section. The reason we chose that is 

7 because based upon our aerodynamic performance 

8 testing we wanted to have a conservative 

9 application for the length of performance and 

10 the aerodynamic effects associated with it 

11 with what we considered to be a sensitive 

12 wing. 

13 So the hard wing applications are 

14 the ones that tend to have the greatest 

15 sensitivity to roughness levels, to ice and 

16 performance. And so we developed this project 

17 where Bombardier's chief aerodynamicist and 

18 two of their aerodynamics engineers from the 

19 ground de-icing activities supported us in the 

20 development of a I'd call it a CRJ 

21 equivalent. It's -- the CRJ wing, as it is 

22 with the case with most aircraft 

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1 manufacturers, is a proprietary wing 

2 associated with the company. 

3 We asked them to work with us to 

4 provide something in the same high performance 

5 nature as the CRJ wing so that we could have 

6 a chance to do the testing of it. And we 

7 built a full scale wing equivalent to an 

8 outboard section of the CRJ200 and conducted 

9 testing with both fluids in terms of their 

10 performance on the wing through a rotation of 

11 the aircraft equivalent. So you'd turn the 

12 tunnel on, bring the cold air in, and rotate 

13 the wing as you would ln an airplane 

14 application. 

15 And we did baseline testing with 

16 that same airfoil to understand what the --

17 effects the aerodynamic performance is, and 

18 then we put sandpaper roughness levels on the 

19 wing and -- on the leading edge only, on the 

2 o whole wing, and on the trailing edge and then 

21 measured the performance differences 

22 associated with that so we could have a 

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1 baseline of what the sensitivity of the 

2 aircraft is -- or that wing section is it's 

3 a 2D wing section the way it's put in the wind 

4 tunnel -- so we could have a baseline of what 

5 the sensitivity of that wing is to those kind 

6 of roughness levels. 

7 Q Thank you. 

8 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, at this 

9 point I'd like to offer Mr. Bond as an expert 

10 witness in the subject of aircraft icing and 

11 specifically the effects of frost on an 

12 aircraft's safety. 

13 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I object 

14 unless his testimony is limited to icing 

15 conditions in flight, which he has clearly 

16 established an expertise for. He is not 

17 qualified to opine about the facts ln this 

18 case where the frost apparently was formed in 

19 the ground and not during inflight conditions. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want 

21 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, if I --

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to voir 

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1 dire, Mr. Emerson? 

2 MR. EMERSON: Sure. 

3 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. EMERSON: 

5 Q Mr. Bond, would you tell me again 

6 what you studied at Penn State? 

7 A I studied mechanical engineering 

8 at Penn State. 

9 Q You have a degree in mechanical 

10 engineering from Penn State? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q You didn't study atmospheric 

13 sciences? 

14 A I did not study atmospheric 

15 sciences. 

16 Q How about meteorology, was that 

17 part of your --

18 MR. SPITZER: Objection, your 

19 Honor. He hasn't been proffered for any of 

20 these issues. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, overrule. 

22 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Meteorology? 

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1 A Okay. So can I answer? 

2 Q Yes. 

3 A Yes, I did not study meteorology. 

4 Q The experience that you talked 

5 about -- and it sounds impressive, but it goes 

6 towards the formation of ice on airfoils, on 

7 wing services apparently in flight. Is that 

8 correct? 

9 A Based upon my experience over the 

10 last seven and a half years, I've participated 

11 in ground de- icing research from the start of 

12 my tenure at the FAA, and I 've worked with the 

13 resonate ground de- icing focal who is from the 

14 icing research-- or from-- I'm sorry, from 

15 FAA technical center. And I've become 

16 acclimated to ground de-icing conditions both 

17 in terms of the research associated with the 

18 formation of frost or contamination on -- on 

19 the wing and fluids' performance and the 

20 aerodynamics effects associated with that. 

21 Q What was --

22 A I participated in the Gl2 aircraft 

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1 icing-- aircraft de-icing committee for that 

2 same period of time. And I wrote and was the 

3 principal author for the ground -- the 2012 

4 icing plan ground de-icing portion of that 

5 plan. However, that was not associated with 

6 atmospheric sciences. 

7 Q You -- I'm sorry. Did you conduct 

8 this research yourself? 

9 A I conducted the research with my 

10 colleagues so I was a part of that -- of that 

11 research. 

12 Q And what ground icing conditions 

13 did this research study? 

14 A I'm not sure what you're asking 

15 me. 

16 Q You said you researched ground 

17 icing conditions. 

18 A We simulate ground icing 

19 conditions associated with the impact of both 

20 the fluids and the-- either it's ice pelts, 

21 snow, or some other mixed conditions 

22 associated with what happens to the fluids in 

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1 terms of their performance associated with how 

2 long the holdover times can last with that. 

3 Q I'm sorry. When you say fluids, 

4 you're talking 

5 A Ground de-icing fluid so it's both 

6 de-icing and --

7 Q Gylcol, that sort of thing? 

8 A Gylcol type II and type IV, those 

9 those particular conditions. And then I 

10 participated in the testing where we put the 

11 -- we put simulated roughnesses on, consistent 

12 with the levels of frost from experience from 

13 ground testing and from what has been done 

14 operationally over the years. 

15 Q You simulated simulate that 

16 frost on the ground in a flight simulation. 

17 Is that right? 

18 A It's put on the aircraft -- I'm 

19 sorry. It's put on the wing, and then it's 

20 run through a rotation. So it's from liftoff 

21 -- it's from high speed taxi to liftoff, but 

22 it's not inflight. It's not considered 

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1 inflight because inflight would be 

2 significantly different than what the 

3 testing that we did. 

4 Q Did your research go to the 

5 natural sublimation of frost --

6 A No. 

7 Q -- for -- no? 

8 A No. 

9 MR. EMERSON: That 1 s all, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 I renew my objection. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, if --

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: The objection 1 s 

14 going to be overruled. It goes to the weight 

15 of his testimony, Mr. Emerson. So your 

16 objection is noted. 

17 Your proffer as an expert was in 

18 what field? 

19 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the 

20 proffer is in the field of aviation icing and 

21 its effects on aircraft safety. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I 1 m not sure 

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1 that I heard credentials that would rise to 

2 that level, but I'm still going to overrule 

3 the objection that it does go to the weight of 

4 his testimony. 

5 And I will take that into 

6 consideration, Mr. Emerson. 

7 Go ahead. You can proceed. 

8 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

9 Honor. 

10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 

11 BY MR. SPITZER: 

12 Q Mr. Bond, have you reviewed files 

13 and heard testimony in the case that we're 

14 here talking about today? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And what documents have you 

17 reviewed? 

18 A I reviewed the the documents 

19 you sent me. I don't know what their file 

20 names are associated with the submission of 

21 the -- the case information. So I've reviewed 

22 the the testimony or reviewed the 

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1 submissions of by Mr. Perkins, the 

2 background information about the the 

3 atmospheric conditions, the Kevin Perry 

4 document, and the information about the ops 

5 specs and the rest of the details that were 

6 discussed earlier today regarding the pushback 

7 from the -- release from the aircraft and the 

8 including the pictures of the frost. 

9 Q And have you been present in the 

10 courtroom for the testimony of -- of Inspector 

11 Perkins? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Mr. Bond, in reviewing the -- the 

14 information currently in the record in this 

15 case, did you come to a conclusion about 

16 whether or not aviation safety was compromised 

17 by this operation? 

18 A Yes, I did. 

19 Q And what was the conclusion that 

20 you carne to? 

21 A My conclusion 

22 MR. EMERSON: Objection. Can we 

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1 have some foundation before we get to the 

2 conclusion? 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

4 MR. SPITZER: We'll get to that. 

5 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, having 

6 looked at the -- the information that has been 

7 put into evidence in this case, could you say 

8 generally whether or not the conditions were 

9 conducive to the formation of frost on the 

10 aircraft's wings? 

11 A Yes. 

12 MR. EMERSON: Objection. Vague. 

13 At what point are we talking about? 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

15 Q (By MR. SPITZER) At the time of 

16 the subject flight and for the half hour 

17 proceeding the departure of the subject 

18 flight, in your review of the weather data 

19 that was supplied by Mr. Perkins and also the 

20 weather data that was a component of the 

21 expert report that was supplied to this office 

22 through discovery, did you come to a 

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1 conclusion about whether conditions were 

2 conducive for the formation of frost on an 

3 aircraft's wings? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And what was the conclusion? 

6 A Based upon the review of the 

7 evidence, the Kevin Perry document, and the 

8 atmospheric conditions associated with the 

9 radiational cooling, I believe that there was 

10 frost that could form on that wing during that 

11 period of time. 

12 MR. EMERSON: I'm sorry. I didn't 

13 hear the -- the end of your statement. 

14 THE WITNESS: Just -- where do you 

15 want me to start? 

16 MR. EMERSON: You said it was --

17 I'm sorry. I just didn't hear the last seven 

18 or eight words. It trailed off 

19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

20 MR. EMERSON: -- could you repeat? 

21 THE WITNESS: So, yeah. I said 

22 based upon the evidence that was shown me --

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1 the pictures of the wing, the Kevin Perry 

2 explanation, the dewpoint and temperature of 

3 the conditions there, and the fact that 

4 radiational cooling could have taken place to 

5 induce a lower temperature on the wing -- I 

6 believe that frost could form. 

7 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, I'd 

8 like to turn your attention to what has been 

9 previously marked as Exhibit 3. It should be 

10 in front of you. 

11 MR. SPITZER: Permission to 

12 approach, Your Honor. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

14 Q (By MR. SPITZER) I 1 d like to 

15 present the witness with what has been 

16 previously marked as Administrator's 3 and 

17 accepted into evidence. 

18 A Oh, I'm sorry. I don't need this 

19 then. Right? 

20 Okay. 

21 Q Now, Mr. Bond, having looked at 

22 this picture and heard the testimony of Aaron 

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1 Perkins today, did you come to a conclusion on 

2 whether or not this was frost that was on the 

3 aircraft's wings? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And what was the conclusion? 

6 A My conclusion was that this is 

7 frost on the aircraft wings. 

8 Q Mr. Bond, from your experience as 

9 a scientist for the FAA and NASA on the 

10 subject of icing and frost, could this amount 

11 of frost that was on the wings, if it was on 

12 the wings at the time of takeoff, have 

13 affected aviation safety? 

14 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

15 Relevance. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Restate the 

17 question. 

18 MR. SPITZER: Certainly, Your 

19 Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: No, I'm just 

21 asking you. 

22 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, looking 

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1 at the photograph marked as Exhibit 3 and 

2 having heard the testimony of Inspector 

3 Perkins and from your experience as a 

4 scientist with NASA and the FAA, did you come 

5 to a conclusion on whether the amount of frost 

6 that is in this picture, if it existed at the 

7 time of takeoff, could have posed a hazard to 

8 aviation safety? 

9 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

10 Relevance. 

11 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, this is 

12 why we're here. 

13 MR. EMERSON: It doesn't go to 

14 further whether there's a violation. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

16 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the 

17 Administrator has alleged 91-13 which is 

18 careless and reckless operation. This 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, what the 

20 Administrator has alleged are four violations 

21 as set forth in the Complaint. 

22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, one of 

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1 those violations is careless or reckless 

2 operation of which a central tenant is 

3 operating in a manner that's detrimental to 

4 aviation safety. This is 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that's not 

6 the question that you asked. 

7 MR. SPITZER: I'll rephrase the 

8 question. 

9 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, having 

10 looked at the -- the evidence that's on record 

11 in this case, did you come to the conclusion 

12 as to whether aviation safety was affected by 

13 this flight? 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm not 

15 going to allow him to answer that question 

16 because that goes to the responsibilityof the 

17 Court. If you'll rephrase the question --

18 because you -- the question you just answered 

19 is based on the testimony and the evidence, 

20 can he come to a conclusion on that, impinges 

21 on -- if he answers that one way or another I 

22 don't have anything to do, in other words. 

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1 Rephrase the question in terms of 

2 the witness, which the question can't be based 

3 on your review is there a violation because 

4 that's for the Court to determine. He can 

5 express an opinion relevant to a portion 

6 there. 

7 Do you want to take just a minute 

8 to rethink your train of thought? I know I've 

9 broken your train of thought. 

10 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Your precise 

12 question went to the -- the obligation of the 

13 Court. That's it's a technical issue. 

14 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, having 

15 reviewed the evidence that you reviewed in 

16 this matter, do you have an opinion on whether 

17 aviation safety was compromised in this 

18 flight? 

19 MR. EMERSON: Same objection. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'll allow 

21 that question because it's asking him whether 

22 he has an opinion. So overrule that 

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1 objection. 

2 MR. EMERSON: It assumes that the 

3 frost is present. We haven't laid any 

4 foundation that the witness --

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: He did testify his 

6 opinion based on the review of evidence that 

7 he thought that there was frost on the wing. 

8 MR. EMERSON: At departure 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's 

10 MR. EMERSON: -- or at the gate? 

11 In this photograph, yes, but at departure --

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's his 

13 testimony is what his testimony is. His 

14 testimony was based on the review of the 

15 photograPh it was his opinion that there was 

16 frost on the wing, period. So the question 

17 that you objected to is did he have an 

18 opinion. I'm going to overrule the objection 

19 as to whether he had an opinion. 

20 You sure you don't want to take a 

21 break? 

22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I just 

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1 -- I fail to see what the issue is. I mean, 

2 he's here as an expert witness. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. I 

4 understand, but -- I understand where you're 

5 trying to go and I understand why Mr. Emerson 

6 is doing what he's doing. But getting back to 

7 where we began, you you misphrased the 

8 question that you meant to ask by saying based 

9 on your review of testimony is there a 

10 violation which is really what the Court's 

11 responsibility is. And this is my 

12 ammunition there is consistent with what I'm 

13 getting in other cases. Not saying that you're 

14 foreclosed from pursuing this avenue. You 

15 just need to take another path to get where 

16 you want to go. 

17 MR. SPITZER: Okay. Your Honor, 

18 help me out here. I'm trying--

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I can't do 

20 that because we're not in law school. Just 

21 let's do this. Let's take about a five-minute 

22 break, give you a chance to collect your 

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1 thoughts. And we '11 come back and I '11 allow 

2 you to begin exactly where you were. We're 

3 just going to take a short break. All right? 

4 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 

7 instruct the witness you're not to discuss 

8 your testimony with anybody during this short 

9 recess. 

10 (A break was taken from 2:05 to 

11 2: 12 . ) 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

13 record. 

14 Mr. Spitzer? 

15 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

16 Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just a suggestion. 

18 It might be helpful just to go back to the 

19 beginning and walk into it. 

20 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

21 Honor. 

22 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, does 

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1 frost on a aircraft like the Bombardier CRJ 

2 wing affect aviation safety? 

3 THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to 

4 answer? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I haven't 

6 heard an objection. So 

7 THE WITNESS: Do I have to --

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: As long as Mr. 

9 Emerson doesn't say anything. 

10 THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. 

11 A The answer is yes. 

12 Q Now, from your experience and --

13 and knowledge as an FAA scientist and NASA 

14 scientist, what effect would frost on a CRJ --

15 Bombardier CRJ aircraft wing have? 

16 A The same effect that frost would 

17 have on any aircraft wing, and that is that it 

18 can have a handling qualities effect and 

19 maneuverability of the aircraft. It can 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to 

21 I've got a hearing disability so--

22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. 

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1 A I said the same effect that frost 

2 would have on any aircraft wing; that is, that 

3 it -- it's contamination of the wing, so that 

4 contamination can cause a performance and 

5 handling qualities change. So you could have 

6 a decrement in speed. You could have a 

7 handling qualities event depending on the 

8 thickness and roughness of the ice, its 

9 location, and the configuration of the 

10 aircraft. 

11 Q With respect to the you've 

12 testified that the that any aircraft is 

13 affected by frost on the wing. Are the 

14 effects greater or lesser for the Bombardier 

15 CRJ aircraft? 

16 A The bombardier CRJ aircraft has a 

17 higher degree of sensitivity as a single 

18 element air air -- airflow with a flapped 

19 multiengine -- or multielement airfoil that 

20 you might see on a larger airplane. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just for the 

22 Court's benefit, what do you mean by single 

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1 element versus multielement? 

2 THE WITNESS: The CRJ200 wing is 

3 considered a hard wing, so there's no leading 

4 edge device on that aircraft. So there's no 

5 --there's no multielement that comes out and 

6 gives it a higher degree of lift associated 

7 with that. 

8 Q (By MR. SPITZER) What is a -- when 

9 you say element that comes out of the wing, 

10 what is that? 

11 A It can be a multiple set of 

12 leading edge devices. So you could have 

13 Krueger flap or leading edge slat, something 

14 that separates from the leading edge -- or 

15 from the main element of the airfoil and 

16 extends the camber of the wing. When that is 

17 extended, it increases the lift capability. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Would the same be 

19 true of the trailing edge? Obviously you have 

20 a flap of some sort. 

21 THE WITNESS: Right. There are --

22 there are aircraft with extended flap 

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1 capabilities in a multielement, and that would 

2 also improve the lift capability of the wing 

3 associated with it. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, again, can 

5 the Court presume that this particular type of 

6 aircraft does not have --

7 THE WITNESS: It has a single 

8 flap. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: So it has a single 

10 flap, but that flap does not extend. Is that 

11 correct? 

12 THE WITNESS: The flap does extend 

13 itself, but it doesn't extend itself in 

14 multiple flap --

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

16 THE WITNESS: -- configuration. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

18 Sorry, Mr. Spitzer. 

19 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, if 

22 there was frost that was formed on the aft 

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1 portion of the wing well behind the slat or 

2 other extension device that would be on a 

3 bigger aircraft, would that still have an 

4 effect on aviation safety? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q And why is that? 

7 A The contamination doesn't have to 

8 be on the leading edge of the wing. 

9 Contamination has to be significant enough to 

10 affect the aerodynamic performance and 

11 handling qualities. So the frost could be 

12 located farther back on the wing. There's 

13 been data shown for this particular aircraft 

14 that contamination typically represented in 

15 dry air wind tunnel flight testing with medium 

16 or coarse sandpaper even in the -- even in the 

17 trailing edge region can affect the 

18 performance and have a a decrement to the 

19 to the speed and the ability of the 

20 aircraft to sustain flight. 

21 Q When you say "the ability of the 

22 aircraft to sustain flight," does that mean 

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1 the stall speed would be higher? 

2 A The stall speed could be higher. 

3 I can't comment unless it's specific to a case 

4 you evaluate in a-- in a test. But the stall 

5 speed could be higher. The handling qualities 

6 could be changed, and it would be dependent 

7 upon the configuration. 

8 I think the point I'm trying to 

9 relate is that any frost contamination on the 

10 trailing edge has a potential aviation safety 

11 problem associated with it. 

12 Q How about frost on the upper 

13 portion of the wing, not on the trailing edge, 

14 but on the aft portion of the wing? 

15 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

16 Relevance? 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I 1m sorry. Repeat 

18 the question. I'm just asking you to repeat 

19 the same question that you asked. 

20 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, would 

21 frost that was on the aircraft wing on the 

22 upper wing surface in the aft half of the wing 

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1 have an effect on aviation safety? 

2 A Yes. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

4 Q (By MR. SPITZER) And what would 

5 the effect be? 

6 A Similar to what I described, but 

7 it could be more significant because there's 

8 more separation in airflow if the frost is 

9 farther forward from the rear, farther 

10 forward, if that's what you're asking me. So 

11 the most sensitive frost you could have on a 

12 wing like -- hard wing like this would be on 

13 the leading edge typically. But in all cases 

14 the frost associated with different positions 

15 on the wing can still have a significant 

16 impact on aviation safety. 

17 Q When you say that the aircraft --

18 earlier you stated that the aircraft's 

19 performance could be reduced. What do you 

20 mean by that? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I didn't I 

22 didn't hear one of the words you used. Again, 

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1 it's-- the problem I've got is when there's 

2 any background noise, I literally can't hear 

3 my wife across the table from me. So don't 

4 take this as anything wrong that you're --

5 either one of you are saying. I just 

6 literally can't-- can't hear the word. What 

7 was the word that you used? Because your voice 

8 dropped off and that's the word I didn't hear. 

9 MR. SPITZER: I'll rephrase the 

10 question, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Or we can always 

12 cheat and go to Diane? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Want to? 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don ' t you 

15 repeat the question? That way Mr. Spitzer 

16 doesn't feel like I'm picking on him. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Okay. 

18 (The record was read as follows: 

19 "QUESTION: When you say that the 

20 aircraft earlier you stated that the 

21 aircraft's performance could be reduced. What 

22 do you mean by that?" 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I missed 

2 the word 11 reduced. 11 

3 THE WITNESS: So is that okay? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

5 A All right. What I'm talking about 

6 specifically is both -- you can have -- when 

7 I say the aircraft performance can be reduced, 

8 the airflow can be disrupted due to the frost, 

9 whether it's on the leading edge, the top 

10 surface, or even on the aft section of the 

11 airfoil. With that happening, you can have an 

12 effect on the lift function depending upon the 

13 angle of the tack of the aircraft or of the 

14 maneuvering capability. In either case it 

15 could reduce your ability for the aircraft to 

16 sustain lift. 

17 Q Mr. Bond, we've talked a lot about 

18 theoretical effects. Have there been any 

19 accidents that were caused by frost on the 

20 aircraft wings on bombardier CRJ? 

21 A There's -- there's two accidents 

22 I'm familiar with associated with the CRJ200. 

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1 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

2 Relevance. 

3 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor --

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's not really 

5 relevant, but the Court would like to hear it. 

6 A There was an accident in 2004 and 

7 a China EasternAirlines, I believe, is the 

8 name of the airline operator in Mongolia 

9 departi-ng to China. That accident, all of the 

10 people on board died and two people on the 

11 ground died. The particulars of that accident 

12 were that the aircraft took off. It was a 

13 morning takeoff. And the-- there was frost 

14 on the wings associated with the radiation 

15 cooling and hoarfrost. And it was presumed it 

16 was on the leading edge also because of the 

17 significance of the aerodynamics performance 

18 effects, but the assumption is that there was 

19 frost on the wing. 

20 The airplane took off, and within 

21 approximatelya kilometer, maybe a little over 

22 a kilometer, it lost flight. The pilot did 

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1 not understand what was happening and couldn't 

2 sustain flight. The plane crashed into the 

3 ground. 

4 The second one that I'm familiar 

5 with is that CRJ200 had -- another accident 

6 took place in Armenia, and it was with an 

7 airline operator called Belavia. And that one 

8 is a little different than this one, but it 

9 also had frost on the wings, and it may have 

10 been from cold-soaked fuel frost. It's not 

11 clear that they understood the frost formation 

12 mechanism. 

13 That plane actually lifted off 

14 from the runway, and within about 15 feet the 

15 -- I can't remember. I think it was the left 

16 wing tipped, hit the runway, and the aircraft 

17 started rolling and crashed upside down. To 

18 everyone's good fortune, some alert passengers 

19 managed to open the exit doors, and everyone 

20 got out alive. So that was a little 

21 different. 

22 But both cases the -- the accident 

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1 review authority of those both those 

2 nations have looked at it along with support 

3 from Bombardier. Their specialists made a 

4 determination that they were both caused by 

5 frost. 

6 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, move to 

7 strike. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, as 

9 Counsel, to the objection, there is some 

10 well, I'm going to overrule the objection. 

11 Your objection goes to weight. It's it 

12 goes to weight. It's not going to have -- the 

13 case is not going to turn on the particulars 

14 of the two accidents, but I'm going to 

15 overrule the objection. 

16 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, have 

19 you had a chance to review various operators' 

20 de- icing programs in the course of your duties 

21 as an -- as an FAA scientist? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Were you able to review the 

2 de-icing program for SkyWest in this in 

3 this case? 

4 A I reviewed the document the 

5 documents that had the information associated 

6 with their-- their de-icing program, yes. 

7 Q And, Mr. Bond, are you aware of --

8 of a program or or a provision in the 

9 program that would allow the aircraft to take 

10 off after frost was discovered and the frost 

11 had sublimated or melted off of the wings? 

12 A I'm not aware of anything that 

13 would allow that. 

14 Q If -- if the crew had performed--

15 or in our hypothetical situation if the crew 

16 were to perform a secondary preflight, would 

17 that be that showed no ice on the wings, 

18 would that be permissible? 

19 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

20 Foundation. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: You really haven't 

22 -- I'm going to sustain. You really haven't 

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1 set forth a hypothetical. The question is not 

2 improper. It's just that you haven't 

3 postulated a hypothetical. 

4 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, ln a 

5 hypothetical situation where an aircraft did 

6 have frost on its wings, SkyWest aircraft had 

7 frost on its wings, the aircraft was taxied 

8 into the sunlight and the frost either melted 

9 or sublimated, could SkyWest take that 

10 aircraft off if the flight crew had conducted 

11 a secondary preflight check that had shown no 

12 frost on the wings prior to takeoff? 

13 MR. EMERSON: Objection. This 

14 goes outside of the expert's authority, 

15 expertise. And we haven't established if he's 

16 reviewed the entire de-icing program or the 

17 small section that's been provided today as an 

18 exhibit. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 

20 overrule the objection. 

21 That means you can answer. 

22 THE WITNESS : Oh, sorry. I'm 

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1 sorry. 

2 A The answer -- my answer to that 

3 would be that if there was a second preflight 

4 that was done, the aircraft would take off, if 

5 there was no frost formation on the --

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Could 

7 you repeat that? 

8 A If there was a second preflight 

9 that was conducted and there was no frost on 

10 the airplane, the airplane could take off. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

12 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, you've 

13 testified earlier that you've had a chance to 

14 observe both frost formation and frost melting 

15 and sublimation in experimental conditions. 

16 Do you have an opinion as to whether this 

17 aircraft, the subject aircraft in this case, 

18 took off with frost on its wings? 

19 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

20 Foundation. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

22 MR. SPITZER: Foundation as to 

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1 knowledge, Your Honor, or foundation as to 

2 what this individual has reviewed? 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: There 1 s no 

4 foundation he has any knowledge to answer the 

5 question. 

6 MR. SPITZER: YourHonor, I 1 dlike 

7 to make an offer of proof. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

9 MR. SPITZER: Inspector -- or Mr. 

10 Bond, has testified that he 1 s observed frost 

11 be formed on experimental wing portions. He 1 s 

12 observed it also sublimate off and melt off in 

13 an experimental circumstance. He has more 

14 experience probably than anybody else watching 

15 frost melt and form. This quest ion is merely 

16 asking whether he has an opinion on whether or 

17 not the frost that was observed by Mr. Perkins 

18 at 48 after 7:00 still existed on the aircraft 

19 at -- at 8:08 when the aircraft took off. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what was the 

21 question? 

22 MR. SPITZER: The question is in 

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1 in Mr. Bond's experience does he believe 

2 that the aircraft took off with frost on its 

3 wings after having reviewed the information 

4 that Inspector Perkins obtained. 

5 MR. EMERSON: Objection, Your 

6 Honor. His experience generally does not 

7 pertain here. Again, a great deal of 

8 foundation is lacking as to the formation of 

9 this particular alleged contamination: 

10 Dewpoint, frost point, ambient temperature, 

11 the amount of sunlight available. We are just 

12 merely jumping to a conclusion with zero 

13 foundation to support whatever it is he's 

14 about to say. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

16 MR. SPITZER: All right. Your 

17 Honor, I'm making an offer of proof at this 

18 point. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand that. 

20 MR. SPITZER: So may I ask the 

21 question? 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: What -- you just 

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1 -- I thought you just made the offer of proof. 

2 MR. SPITZER: So the offer of 

3 proof from the Administrator is that in Mr. 

4 Bond's experience this aircraft did depart 

5 with frost on the wings. That's it. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can answer --

7 you can ask the question. 

8 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, in your 

9 experience and from your review of the file in 

10 this case, do you have an opinion as to 

11 whether this aircraft departed with frost on 

12 its wings? 

13 MR. EMERSON: Same objection. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, it's an 

16 offer of proof. I want to get it on the 

17 record so that on appeal I have this locked 

18 up, so I'm just making an offer of proof. 

19 That's all. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. And 

21 your -- your question is in the record and my 

22 -- my ruling is in record. So that's 

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1 that's where we are. 

2 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, as 

3 counsel for the Agency, I'm entitled to show 

4 what would have been on the record if we 

5 hadn't have gotten the objection or if the 

6 objection was improperly ruled upon. That's 

7 all I'll doing right here. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Where is 

9 that in the rule? 

10 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, it's in 

11 13 --

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you talking 

13 about 14 CFR? 

14 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 

15 Thirteen CF -- 14 CFR 13.225, offer of proof. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. 

17 Thirteen? Well, for purposes of 14 CFR 

18 Section 13.225, I will allow the the 

19 witness to answer the question, but my ruling 

20 still stands. 

21 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

22 Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Why don't 

2 you just make sure that this portion of the 

3 record is clear? This portion of the record 

4 should be noted that I'm allowing the FAA 

5 counsel to present an offer of proof pursuant 

6 to 14 CFR section 13.225. 

7 Having said that, Mr. Spitzer, do 

8 you want to restate your question? 

9 MR. SPITZER: Certainly, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Bond, after 

12 having reviewed the evidence in this trial, do 

13 you have an opinion as to whether the aircraft 

14 departed at 8:08 with frost on his wings? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm--

16 MR. EMERSON: Same. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: going to allow 

18 that. I'm going to allow him to answer that 

19 he has an opinion. Okay? 

20 So you can answer that. Do you 

21 have an opinion, yes or no? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

2 Q (By MR. SPITZER) And what is that 

3 opinion? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have an 

5 objection, Mr. Emerson? 

6 MR. EMERSON: Yes. Same 

7 objections as to no foundation for this 

8 opinion. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But for --

10 to make sure that the record's clear, I think 

11 you should state what -- in full the reasons 

12 for your objection, and then I'm going to 

13 allow him to answer the question. 

14 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 MR. EMERSON: So to repeat the 

17 objections that I've already stated-- they 

18 haven't changed. This witness has still not 

19 laid out any foundation for the opinion he's 

20 about to offer. Therefore, the evidence will 

21 have zero or no weight and should be 

22 disregarded. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I'm going 

2 to sustain the objection, but I'm going to 

3 allow the witness to answer the question. 

4 So, Mr. Bond, would you answer the 

5 question if -- Mr. Spitzer could you restate 

6 it? 

7 A Could you say the question again, 

8 please? 

9 Q What is that opinion? 

10 A My opinion is that there would 

11 have been frost on the airplane at takeoff. 

12 Q And what do you base that opinion 

13 upon? 

14 A I base that opinion upon the 

15 experience I've had in testing and the years 

16 of research work that's been done and my 

17 associated activities within the FAA and 

18 ground de-icing working with the standard 

19 staff the flights services flight 

20 standard services staff focal in reviewing 

21 issues associated with frost. 

22 MR. SPITZER: Okay. Your Honor, 

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1 that --

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Was that -- I'm 

3 sorry. Is that what you wanted to get in? 

4 MR. SPITZER: That is, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So let's go 

6 back to where we were. 

7 MR. SPITZER: No further 

8 questions, Your Honor. And that also 

9 concludes our offer of proof. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: What do you mean? 

11 Okay. Never mind. 

12 Cross? 

13 MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: So based on his 

15 non-cross, I assume you have no direct based 

16 on his non-cross, do you? 

17 MR. SPITZER: No, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

19 Sir, I'm going to instruct you 

20 that you remain under oath during the 

21 continuation of the testimony. Because you're 

22 the Agency's expert witness you can return to 

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1 the table or you can be excused, whatever you 

2 want. 

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, do 

5 you have other witnesses? 

6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we have 

7 one additional witness, the one who's 

8 available only via telephone. The bulk of his 

9 testimony, though, is rebuttal testimony. 

10 Everything that he's going to testify about 

11 has not been put into the record yet. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that's 

13 assuming Mr. Emerson puts on a case. We can't 

14 rebut if he didn't put a case on. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Sorry, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: I say if Mr. 

17 Emerson doesn't put a case on, you won't have 

18 anything to rebut. 

19 MR. SPITZER: Right. Precisely, 

20 Your Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So the only 

22 remaining witness you would have is a 

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1 potential rebuttal witness if Mr. Emerson --

2 MR. SPITZER: That's correct, Your 

3 Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The Court 

5 normally doesn't have any objection, assuming 

6 Counsel doesn't, about taking telephonic 

7 testimony. The problem is that this isn't my 

8 courtroom. And if we're going to do something 

9 telephonically, I may have to have Ms. 

10 Matthews set it up at a date subsequent to 

11 today. I'm just throwing that out there. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Okay. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: And let's cross 

14 that bridge in and when we get to it. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Certainly, Your 

16 Honor. There may be no need to call that 

17 witness. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. So you have 

19 no further testimony in your case in chief? 

20 MR. SPITZER: No further 

21 testimony, Your Honor. I would request that 

22 you take judicial notice of the 21.53(b). I 

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1 have copies of the relevant portions for you 

2 and opposing counsel if you'd like that. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that the 

4 penalty computation? 

5 MR. SPITZER: Yes, that's correct, 

6 Your Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, I -- based 

8 -- are you going to object or not? 

9 MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Based on -- and 

11 I'll tell you this. I told Mr. Morris this. 

12 I normally -- I will mark it as an exhibit. 

13 I won't accept it into evidence. What I will 

14 do is take judicial notice of it. What I do 

15 is make sure that I review the regulations 

16 which are ln force at the time of the 

17 violation, whatever that is. So I will accept 

18 that as -- we'll mark it as an exhibit, but 

19 I'll take judicial notice of it. So if you 

20 want to approach, that will be fine. 

21 MR. EMERSON: I have one on my 

22 desk. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: I actually 

2 downloaded it on my iPad. 

3 Let me just -- I want to check one 

4 thing before we --Mr. Spitzer, I don't show 

5 an Exhibit 8. I've got a blank spot. Is that 

6 consistent with your notes? 

7 MR. SPITZER: Stand by one second, 

8 Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Let me --

10 why don't both of you get your exhibits and 

11 let me go through what I have as exhibits. 

12 MR. SPITZER: There should be no 

13 Exhibit 8, Your Honor. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I've got: 

15 l is the air carrier certificate that's four 

16 pages; Exhibit 2 is the operations 

17 specificatims, that's 14 pages, that's 

18 actually an excerpt; 3 is the photo of the 

19 right wing; 4A is the schematic which is 

20 unmarked; and 4B is the schematic which is 

21 marked. I'm probably going to do a 4C just to 

22 be consistent, which would be a digital 

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1 photograph of the display up here. 

2 Mr. Spitzer, 5 is a certified copy 

3 of the weather data from December 7, 2011 

4 through December 8 which is two pages; No. 6 

5 is -- is catch and tail audit report which was 

6 described as something else; 6 [sic] is a 

7 dispatch release; eight there is no exhibit; 

8 and 9 is the photo of the right fuselage of 

9 November 425 Southwest [verbatim] Is that 

10 consistent with your notes? 

11 MR. SPITZER: It is, Your Honor, 

12 and we also show all of those as having been 

13 accepted. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I'm sure that 

15 they were all admitted. 

16 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that correct, 

19 Mr. Emerson? 

20 MR. EMERSON: Yes, Your Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: And in fairness 

22 the only exhibit that I have so far 

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1 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, we have 

2 referred to Exhibit 1 and 2 in 

3 cross-examination, but I have not offered 

4 those into evidence. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: What I have is 

6 Respondent's Exhibit R-5, which is the 

7 deposition of Mr. Perkins which still remains 

8 sealed. And let's see. Okay. Just so we do 

9 this correctly what I'm going to do, 

10 Counsel, is I'm going to show R-1, 2, 3, and 

11 4 as marked for identification. Okay? That's 

12 so they're part of the record. 

13 MR. SPITZER: No dispute with 

14 that, Your Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: And just - - not 

16 receiving them into evidence, they're just 

17 marked. 

18 All right. Given where we are now 

19 --you concluded your case in chief. Okay. 

20 Let's take a -- I've got 20 minutes to 3:00. 

21 Let's take a break until five of 3:00 so I can 

22 do some housekeeping here. Then we' 11 resume 

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1 with Mr. Emerson's case. 

2 MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay? We're off 

4 the record -- go ahead. 

5 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I just 

6 want to clarify. Has Exhibit 5 the -- or 

7 Inspector Perkins' deposition been accepted 

8 into evidence? 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. It's been 

10 marked as an exhibit. It's still sealed. 

11 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

12 Honor. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to you. 

14 If either one of you want me to-- want to put 

15 it ln, I don't care. But for the Court's 

16 purposes it was marked for identification and 

17 that's all that was done. 

18 You referred to it, Mr. Emerson, 

19 but we never unsealed the copy that the Court 

2 o has, nor did we show that copy to the witness. 

21 All right. So we're off the 

22 record. 

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1 (A break was taken from 2:40 to 

2 2:59.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson? 

4 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, at this 

5 time Respondent SkyWest makes a motion for a 

6 judgment at law. This Court has heard 

7 evidence and if -- all of that evidence, even 

8 if taken as true, from the FAA does not 

9 demonstrate that this aircraft took off with 

10 frost on its wings on December 7, 2011, at 

11 Salt Lake International Airport. 

12 We've heard the evidence from 

13 Inspector Aaron Perkins. His testimony was 

14 that the last moment that he visually 

15 confirmed the presence of frost on the wings 

16 of this aircraft was at 7:48 and that the 

17 aircraft departed at 8:08. There is a 

18 20-minute gap from the time that that frost 

19 was observed till the time that it departed. 

20 Mr. Perkins also testified that it 

21 only becomes a violation upon departure and 

22 that before allegations that FARs were 

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1 violated all hinge on departing with frost on 

2 the wings. This Court has no evidence that 

3 this aircraft departed with frost on its 

4 wings. At most it left the gate with frost on 

5 its wings, and from there nobody knows what 

6 happened next. 

7 The FAA has the burden of showing 

8 it was more 1 ikely than not. Mr. Perkins 

9 doesn 1 t know . And the expert which was 

10 called, Mr. Bond, who has impressive 

11 credentials as an icing expert in flight, also 

12 ultimately offered an opinion that frost was 

13 there but didn 1 t do the math for the Court to 

14 tell us how that was possible. Instead it was 

15 based generally on his experience in the 

16 field. 

17 We didn 1 t hear about dewpoint, 

18 temperature, frost point, the conductive 

19 properties of the airfoil itself, radiation 

20 received from the sun, ambient energy. 

21 Nothing. Just a conclusive opinion that it 

22 must have been there. And, Your Honor, 

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1 without hitting those basic elements, there's 

2 absolutely no need for this trial to continue. 

3 The Administrator has not met his burden, and 

4 the case should be dismissed. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer, do 

6 you want to be heard? 

7 MR. SPITZER: Yes, Your Honor. 

8 Your Honor, Mr. Emerson is correct with 

9 respect to the burden of proof that is on the 

10 Administrator. And as I'm sure you need no 

11 reminding, it is a burden of reliable and 

12 probative evidence, that we have to establish 

13 a preponderance of that evidence. Your Honor, 

14 we've done more than that. 

15 You've heard testimony from Mr. 

16 Perkins that he observed frost on the wing, he 

17 felt the frost on the wing, and he 

18 photographed the frost on the wing. You also 

19 heard testimony that he followed the aircraft 

20 as it taxied out of the -- of the gate and 

21 that it was airborne less than -- less than 20 

22 minutes after he last observed the frost. 

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1 Your Honor, you heard testimony 

2 from Mr. Perkins that the aircraft taking off 

3 did form a violation, and it was a violation 

4 of numerous FAA regs for two reasons. One is 

5 because the aircraft departed with frost on 

6 the wings, and the other one is because the 

7 aircraft departed without having de-iced after 

8 having had frost on the wings. That's the 

9 operations specifications violation. 

10 You've heard testimony from Mr. 

11 Perkins and also from Tom Bond that SkyWest' s 

12 program does not allow them to take an 

13 aircraft off after there's been frost on the 

14 wings discovered without having removed that 

15 frost and going through de-ice. So, yes, 

16 Inspector Perkins is correct. The aircraft --

17 there is no violation if the aircraft didn't 

18 take off, but it did. It took off. 

19 Furthermore, the Respondent has 

20 raised the -- this specter that the frost may 

21 have sublimated. However, this is an 

22 affirmative defense, Your Honor, and the 

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1 burden shifts right back to the respondent to 

2 prove his affirmative defense. 

3 We've you've heard testimony 

4 from -- from Tom Bond that in his experience, 

5 which numbers 26 something years of looking at 

6 aircraft and dealing with frost, that this 

7 frost was still on the aircraft's wing at the 

8 time the aircraft took off. And you also heard 

9 testimony from Inspector Perkins that the 

10 frost was still on the wing when the aircraft 

11 took off. 

12 Your Honor we haven't heard any 

13 evidence from the Respondent short of a bunch 

14 of conclusory questions conducted on 

15 cross-examination of Inspector Perkins that 

16 would meet his burden of proving that 

17 affirmative defense that frost was not on the 

18 aircraft at the time it took off. 

19 Your Honor, I believe that the 

20 Administrator has more than met his burden 

21 with respect to showing a preponderance of 

22 reliable and probative evidence that 

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1 establishes that the aircraft had frost on its 

2 wings prior to takeoff and that it took off 

3 with the frost on the wings and without having 

4 gone through de-ice resulting in a violation 

5 of the carrier's ops specs 121. 62 9, which 

6 prohibits taking off with frost and ice on the 

7 wings, and 91.13, which prohibits careless or 

8 reckless operation of an aircraft. 

9 Thank you, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to deny 

11 the motion at this time and review it 

12 reconsider it again when I review the entirety 

13 of it all. 

14 So do you want to proceed? 

15 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, I 

16 reserved my opening statement. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. I recall 

18 that. 

19 MR. EMERSON: And you've heard 

20 most of it in my motion for a judgment as a 

21 matter of law 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

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1 MR. EMERSON: which is they 

2 haven't made the case. It's that simple. The 

3 affirmative defenses don't kick in until 

4 there's actually some evidence that the 

5 aircraft took off with frost on its wings. The 

6 only evidence we have is that it was at the 

7 gate with frost on its wings. It could have 

8 sublimated on 

9 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

10 Honor. Argumentative. 

11 MR. EMERSON: I 'm making argument. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is his 

13 argument. Overruled. 

14 Go ahead. 

15 MR. EMERSON: So the -- sure, an 

16 affirmative defense might kick in if Inspector 

17 Perkins had said I saw that at the frost at 

18 spot 23 or I followed it down to the end of 

19 the runway and as it started to roll out that 

20 frost was still there. Then, yes, I would 

21 certainly have an affirmative defense and a 

22 burden to show that, no, it wasn't there. 

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1 As observed, it could sublimate 

2 and it was gone and Inspector Perkins is 

3 wrong. I don't need to have offered that 

4 evidence or even put on that defense because 

5 the only evidence we have is of a 

6 non-violation, which is that you publish back 

7 from the gate with frost on its wings. Mr. 

s Perkins says it happens all the time. 

9 So the Administrator is guessing, 

10 Your Honor, what happened. You're not allowed 

11 to guess. You've got to bring evidence and 

12 prove and meet your burden. 

13 SkyWest will call the following 

14 witnesses to demonstrate that the 

15 Administrator's guess is not particularly 

16 plausible. The first witness is Mr. Dave 

17 Kat silas. He is the director of operations at 

18 Salt Lake International Airport for SkyWest 

19 Airlines. Mr. Katsilas will testify about 

20 de-icing operations that morning and the 

21 number of SkyWest flights that received 

22 de-icing. And he will testify that no flight 

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1 which originated at another airport, came and 

2 did a turn and left, took de-icing on that 

3 morning. The only aircraft that took de-icing 

4 had been parked at the airport all night long. 

5 You'll next hear from the flight 

6 crew, and they will walk you through the steps 

7 that they took to execute the SkyWest de-icing 

8 program, includir:g- the walk-around and 

9 additional checks to make sure that the 

10 aircraft wings were secure prior to flight. 

11 You'll also hear from a passenger on that 

12 flight who happens to be a pilot and also a 

13 first officer and knows about walking around 

14 an airplane and what to look for. You will 

15 hear he was curious as to whether or not the 

16 aircraft would be delayed as it took de- icing. 

17 And he will testify that he looked out and 

18 examined the wings and so no -- no frost, as 

19 a percipient witness. 

20 You'll then hear from Spencer 

21 Hyde, Your Honor, who is a director at SkyWest 

22 Airlines in charge of media services who's had 

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1 some ability to examine the photograph 

2 produced by the FAA and will testify in 

3 rebuttal to the evidence offered by Mr. 

4 Perkins that that photograph has not been 

5 modified. 

6 Finally, you'll hear from Dr. 

7 Kevin Perry, who is the chair of atmospheric 

8 sciences at the University of Utah who will 

9 offer testimony about the formation and 

10 sublimation of frost and specifically walk 

11 through the atmospheric and meteorological 

12 elements present on the morning of December 7, 

13 2011, to determine whether frost could form, 

14 how deep and thick that frost would be, 

15 whether that frost was durable, and whether 

16 there was enough energy in the atmosphere to 

17 sublimate that frost prior to departure. 

18 Your Honor, we call Mr. Katsilas. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. While 

2 o you're calling the witness, remember at 4: 3 0 

21 we're going to have a break. So that's an 

22 admonishment to both of you. So I don't want 

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1 either one of you to get caught in the middle 

2 of your cross or direct at 4:30. As I said 

3 before, I run into this nationwide where the 

4 the fund I've got to get special 

5 permission from the clerk who's in DC. And at 

6 4:30 it will be 5:30 in D.C. 

7 So anyway, we'll go and where --

8 wherever we are on or about 4:30, no later 

9 than 4:30, we'll break. 

10 MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: If we ' re done, 

12 we're done. 

13 MR. EMERSON: I can make it if Mr. 

14 Spitzer stays in his seat. 

15 Mr. Katsilas? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Would you 

17 approach? Raise your right hand. 

18 (Witness sworn.) 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

20 State your full name for the record and spell 

21 your first and last name. 

22 THE WITNESS: David Alan Katsilas, 

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1 D-A-V-I-D, K-A-T-8-I-L-A-S. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

3 DAVID A. KATSILAS, 

4 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

5 was examined and testified as follows: 

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. EMERSON: 

8 Q Mr. Katsilas, where are you 

9 employed? 

10 A SkyWest Airlines. 

11 Q In what 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. 

13 Mr. Spitzer, do you need to move 

14 so you better see the witness? 

15 MR. SPITZER: I'm fine right where 

16 I am, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

18 Go ahead. I'm sorry. 

19 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Where are you 

20 employed, Mr. Katsilas? 

21 A SkyWest Airlines. 

22 Q How long have you been employed by 

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1 SkyWest? 

2 A Just under 31 years. 

3 Q What is your current position? 

4 A I am the lead manager of hub 

5 operations. I have oversight of all of our 

6 SkyWest-handled hubs. 

7 Q Is Salt Lake International one of 

8 those hubs that you have oversight for? 

9 A Yes, it is. 

10 Q Was this your position on December 

11 7' 2011? 

12 A No, it wasn't. 

13 Q What was your position then? 

14 A I was the general manager of Salt 

15 Lake City for SkyWest Airlines. 

16 Q Any other airports? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Did de-icing operations fall under 

19 your purview as the general manager of Salt 

20 Lake City international airport? 

21 A Yes, it would. 

22 Q For SkyWest-operated aircraft? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Are you familiar with how many 

3 aircraft received de-icing on the -- SkyWest 

4 aircraft on the morning of December 7, 2011? 

5 A One more time. 

6 Q Are you familiar with how many 

7 aircraft 

8 A Yes, I am. 

9 Q received de-icing on the 

10 morning of December 7? 

11 A Yes, I am. 

12 Q How many? 

13 A There were 15 SkyWest aircraft 

14 that were -- received de-icing? There was 

15 five total aircraft that received de-icing. 

16 Q Five received de-icing; 15 total 

17 departures? 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q Before what time? 

20 A 9:00 a.m. 

21 Q Prior to 9:00a.m. 15 departures? 

22 A Correct. 

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1 Q Ten received -- no. Ten did not 

2 take de-icing; five did. 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q Of the five that took de-icing, 

5 how many overnighted at the airport? 

6 A All five of them did. 

7 Q Of the 10 that didn't take 

8 de- icing, how many overnighted at the airport? 

9 A None of them. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: None of them what? 

11 THE WITNESS: None of them 

12 overnighted. They all came inbound that 

13 morning and turned around and departed again. 

14 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Do you have an 

15 opinion as to why those aircraft did not take 

16 de-icing? 

17 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

18 Honor. No foundation for the opinion. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, rephrase the 

20 question. 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Were you familiar 

22 with the conditions at the airport on December 

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1 7, 2011? 

2 A It was a long time ago. Cold. I 

3 couldn't explain exactly how the conditions 

4 were but 

5 Q Did you have the opportunity to 

6 review the de-icing logs and information prior 

7 to coming to court today? 

8 A Yes, I did. 

9 Q Was any of the atmospheric 

10 conditions located there? 

11 A Yes, they were. 

12 Q Were the conditions conducive to 

13 frost formation? 

14 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

15 Honor. There's no foundation for his knowledge 

16 about frost formation. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

18 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead and 

19 answer. 

20 A Repeat the question. 

21 Q Were the conditions conducive for 

22 frost formation? 

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1 A For extended periods of time 

2 probably, but not on quick turns. 

3 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, same 

4 objection. There's no foundation to say this. 

5 We have no background in icing, no experience 

6 in aviation other than being the manager of 

7 the facility which is immaterial to whether he 

8 knows about icing or not. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

10 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Mr. Katsilas, 

11 have you performed de-icing operations 

12 yourself in your 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q -- career? 

15 A Yes, I have. 

16 Q How many times would you estimate? 

17 A Thousands of times. It's been 

18 years but, yes, thousands of times. 

19 MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're done? 

21 MR. EMERSON: I am. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh. 

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1 Mr. Spitzer? 

2 MR. SPITZER: No questions for 

3 this witness, Your Honor. 

4 MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Mr. 

5 Katsilas. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

7 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

8 with anybody during the pendency of the 

9 hearing. 

10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to Counsel 

12 whether he needs to remain. The Court doesn't 

13 need him. 

14 MR. EMERSON: I don't intend to 

15 call him for anything else, so I don't mind if 

16 he watches the rest of the proceedings. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

18 MR. EMERSON: SkyWest calls 

19 Captain Thomas Gibbs. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Captain, you can 

21 approach. Stand and raise your right hand. 

22 (Witness sworn.) 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

2 State your name for the record and spell your 

3 first and last name. 

4 THE WITNESS: Thomas Gibbs, 

5 T-H-0-M-A-S, G-I-B-B-S. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Question for you. 

7 It's the Court's question. In the aviation 

8 industry when they refer to you by your title, 

9 do they abbreviate it C-P-T or C-A-P-T. 

10 THE WITNESS: C-A-P-T. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which is how the 

12 Navy does it. I'm an Army person. 

13 THE WITNESS: I'm Air Force. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, well. 

15 THE WITNESS: Hope we can get 

16 along. 

17 MR. EMERSON: We just lost the 

18 case. Sorry. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. I'm 

20 sorry. 

21 THOMAS GIBBS, 

22 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

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1 was examined and testified as follows: 

2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

3 BY MR. EMERSON: 

4 Q Mr. Gibbs, the acoustic in this 

5 courtroom, kind of difficult to hear. So 

6 please answer as loud --

7 A Okay. 

8 Q -- loud as you can for everyone. 

9 How are you employed? 

10 A SkyWest Airlines, I'm a pilot. 

11 Q What is your rank at SkyWest 

12 Airlines? 

13 A Captain. 

14 Q How long have you been a captain? 

15 A Eight years. 

16 Q Captain on what equipment? 

17 A CRJ2 0 0 , 7 0 0 , 9 0 0 . 

18 Q How many hours do you have ln the 

19 200? 

20 A About 8,000. 

21 Q As a first officer and captain? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Prior to the 200 did you operate 

2 any other aircraft for SkyWest? 

3 A EMB120, the Brasilia. 

4 Q Now --

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: What was that? 

6 THE WITNESS: The EMB120. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

8 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Were you a 

9 captain on the EMB? 

10 A No, first officer. 

11 Q How long did you serve as the 

12 first officer? 

13 A One year. 

14 Q How many hours do you estimate 

15 that you would have ln the EMB120? 

16 A About 800. 

17 Q Total commercial flight time 

18 hours, what is your estimate? 

19 A 9500, somewhere in there. 

20 Q Where were you educated? 

21 A Educated? I went to the 

22 University of Maryland. 

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1 Q Did you receive a degree from the 

2 University of Maryland? 

3 A No. 

4 Q After you left the University of 

5 Maryland, where did you go next? 

6 A I was in the military for 10 

7 years, still in, so 20 years at this point, 

8 taught at Unity aerospace. 

9 Q What did you do in the Air Force? 

10 A In the Air Force? My first job 

11 was security police and then most recently 

12 maintenance department. 

13 Q What did you do after you left the 

14 Air Force? 

15 A I flight instructed. Got my 

16 flight ratings, flight instructed, and then 

17 got hired at SkyWest. 

18 Q Did you go to a flight school? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Which school? 

21 A At the time it was called Westwind 

22 Aviation. 

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1 Q When did you receive your -- do 

2 you -- do you hold an ATP certificate? 

3 A I do. 

4 Q When did you first receive that? 

5 A 2007. 

6 Q Have you ever lost that 

7 certificate? 

A 

9 Q Ever had it suspended? 

A 

11 Q Have you ever been disciplined by 

12 the FAA in any manner for how you operated an 

13 aircraft? 

A 

15 Q Were you the pilot in command on 

16 Flight 7770 departing Salt Lake City on the 

17 morning of December 7, 20117 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Can you generally describe the 

20 weather conditions on that morning? 

21 A Clear. It was cold, clear skies, 

22 unlimited visibility. 

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1 Q Was it cold enough to perform a 

2 preflight inspection that included a tactile 

3 test for de-icing 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q -- for the presence of frost? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Did you perform that test? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Was that test performed by a 

10 member of your crew? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Who did it? 

13 A The first officer. 

14 Q How do you know that he did it? 

15 A I saw him walking around in the 

16 glass that's in front of us there at Echo 1. 

17 Q He departed the cockpit to perform 

18 that? 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q You viewed him walk around the 

21 aircraft? 

22 A Correct. 

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1 Q At least as far as the cockpit 

2 could --

3 A Right, as far as I could see. 

4 Q -- allow you to view? 

5 Did he return to the cockpit? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Did he report that he that 

8 there were frosting-- or frost on the wings? 

9 A No. 

10 Q Did your first officer leave the 

11 cockpit again at any point? 

12 A Yes. It's our requirement at 

13 SkyWest to check the fuel doors after the fuel 

14 truck has loaded the aircraft with fuel. 

15 Q About what time did the fuel truck 

16 arrive at the wing? 

17 A About five to 10 minutes before we 

18 pushed off the gate. 

19 Q So your pushoff from the gate the 

20 ACARS data, do you recall when that was? 

21 A Not specifically, somewhere around 

22 7:50, I think, that morning. 

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1 Q So the fuel truck was there you 

2 believe between 7:40 and 7:45? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q Why did you take on fuel? 

5 A We were going to St. George and 

6 just required fuel. 

7 Q So then at what point do you 

8 believe the first officer went to check that 

9 the fuel door was closed? 

10 A He went prior to the fueler 

11 leaving. He wasn't finished fueling when he 

12 went out, so it would have been right before 

13 departure when he was out there. 

14 Q Was the fuel door closed? 

15 A As far as he reported, yes, it was 

16 closed. 

17 Q Is that located on the wing? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q To see the fuel door, you would 

20 also have to look at the wing. 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q Did the first officer report that 

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1 he viewed frost on the wing after looking at 

2 it a second time? 

3 A No, he didn't report any frost. 

4 Q Then you pushed back from the 

5 gate? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q And taxied out. 

8 A That's correct. 

9 Q Next to you, Mr. Gibbs, is an 

10 exhibit. You'll also find the same exhibit ln 

11 this white binder in front of you that is 

12 Exhibit 2. I'm going to give you a red pen. 

13 I'm going to ask you to trace the path that 

14 your aircraft took as it taxied out from gate 

15 El. El would be 

16 A Over here? 

17 Q Yes. 

18 A Okay. 

19 Q Hang on to this for a second. 

20 A Okay. 

21 Q Would you thicken those lines so 

22 they can be well seen later? 

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1 A (Witness complies.) 

2 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, the 

3 witness has indicated that he taxied away from 

4 gate E1 towards spot --

5 Q (By MR. EMERSON) What is this? 

6 A That's spot 21. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Excuse 

8 me. I didn't hear you. 

9 THE WITNESS: Spot 21. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Thank 

11 you. 

12 Q (By MR. EMERSON) You stopped 

13 drawing at spot 21. Did your aircraft hold 

14 there? 

15 A We held there, yeah, for several 

16 minutes. 

17 Q Would you put an X where your 

18 aircraft held? 

19 A (Witness complies.) 

20 Q Thank you. 

21 After holding, what did your 

22 aircraft do next? 

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1 A Well, it's standard in Salt Lake 

2 that when an -- the aircraft departs there's 

3 a ramp frequency you talk to to depart to a 

4 spot. They assigned 21. We taxied out there. 

5 They say to monitor the ground frequency which 

6 would give us permission to taxi to where we 

7 take off. So we sat there and waited for 

8 ground control to call us. 

9 Q You sat where? 

10 A At spot 21. 

11 Q How long did you sit there? 

12 A Approximately six minutes. 

13 Q Where did your aircraft go after 

14 holding at that location? 

15 A Do you want me to draw that? 

16 Q Yes. 

17 A (Witness complies.) 

18 And that would go to three four 

19 left, went to three four left. 

20 Q Would you put an arrow at the end 

21 of your line to indicate the direction you're 

22 heading as you exit the exhibit? 

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1 A (Witness complies.) 

2 Q Thank you, Mr. Gibbs. 

3 So to paint a verbal picture, your 

4 aircraft departed Echo 1 and stayed on a 

5 westerly course until you got to spot 21 --

6 A That's correct. 

7 Q -- where you held. And then you 

8 continued to taxi southbound until you got to 

9 the end of thirty-four left --

10 A Correct. 

11 Q -- turned north and departed? 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q Do you recall what your total taxi 

14 time was? 

15 A I don't know what the total time 

16 is, but with sitting there six minutes, it 

17 could have been another four to six minutes on 

18 top of that. So, you know, 10 to 12 to eight 

19 minutes. ACARS data would show that 

20 completely. 

21 Q ACARS data will show? 

22 A Yeah. 

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1 Q Okay. I'll show that to you next. 

2 Mr. Gibbs, would you have taxied 

3 over to spot 23? 

4 A Twenty-three is an inbound spot, 

5 so it's very unlikely we taxied there, so no. 

6 Q What does inbound spot mean? 

7 A That 1 s where ramp control would 

8 bring aircraft in and then they would use 22 

9 as an outbound spot if they were taxiing 

10 aircraft out of that spot. Normally they 

11 reserve that for the south end of the E 

12 concourse, and then they use 2 0 and 21 for the 

13 north end of the E concourse. 

14 Q Would you -- you' 11 see a green 

15 line indicating a different pathway out of El. 

16 Does it make sense to turn left and go across 

17 the ramp that way? 

18 A You have aircraft on the south end 

19 of that E concourse that's going to be coming 

20 northbound there. 

21 Q So the direction out of the E 

22 concourse from the south end of it is west and 

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1 then north. So if you taxied this way you'd 

2 

3 A Right. 

4 Q have a collision with 

5 northbound traffic. 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q So your path this day was -- was 

8 west and -- and then south. 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q Did you observe the FAA -- or an 

11 inspector as you were at the gate? 

12 A At the gate, yes. 

13 Q What was he doing? 

14 A He pulled his car to our right 

15 side during the pushback after ground 

16 personnel disconnected and pulled their tug 

17 back into Echo 1. He got out of his car and 

18 then talked to the the ramp personnel. 

19 Q Did you see him again? 

20 A No, never again. 

21 Q Did you notice that the FAA was 

22 that the inspector was trailing you out to 

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1 spot 21? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Did you notice him a beam of your 

4 aircraft on the starboard side? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Did you operate Flight 7770 as the 

7 flying pilot? 

8 A I don't recall. 

9 Q Do you recall whether your 

10 aircraft suffered any significant degradation 

11 in performance as it departed Salt Lake City? 

12 A None that I saw. 

13 Q Would you receive an indicator 

14 from the aircraft if you were failing to 

15 achieve required ground speeds and airspeeds? 

16 A Yeah. There's a number of 

17 warnings and messages we would hear in the 

18 cockpit. 

19 Q Did you receive any indicators 

20 from the computer or any other mechanical 

21 system that was not functioning properly or 

22 impeded in any way from from full 

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1 performance? 

2 A No, no messages. 

3 Q From the feel of the aircraft, did 

4 you notice any lagging or degradation in 

5 performance? 

6 A I can't remember if I flew the 

7 plane, so I don't -- I can't state that. 

8 Q But even as a passenger would you 

9 have 

10 A No. 

11 Q -- noticed? 

12 A No. 

13 Q In front of you are some loose 

14 exhibits I think. Do you see them? 

15 A I do. 

16 Q Out of the book? 

17 A No. It's --

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Here, you can use 

19 the Court's. 

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Do you recognize 

22 Exhibit 6 or do you have it yet? 

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1 A Okay. This is just the ACARS 

2 report that's showing what time whatever 

3 the ACARS is recording is sending. 

4 Q Look through that report and see 

5 if you can determine your out time from the 

6 gate. 

7 A Okay. The out time is stated at 

8 1451 Zulu on the 7th. 

9 Q Would that be 7:51 in the morning? 

10 A That would be correct. 

11 Q There's also a brake release, 

12 cargo door close at that time. 

13 A Correct. 

14 Q Turn the page, please. When did 

15 you push and have the airplane move off the 

16 gate? 

17 A 7:52 local time is when it's shown 

18 that the aircraft started moving, the 

19 push/movement indication. And it would have 

20 been a tug that was pushing us backwards. 

21 Q What time did you get off the 

22 ground? 

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1 A Off time shows 8:08 local time. 

2 Q So from a push at -- and movement 

3 at 7:52 to 8:08, how long was your taxi time? 

4 A Out at 7:51, nine minutes to there 

5 and then another eight minutes, that's 17 

6 minutes. 

7 Q Shows your movement was actually a 

8 minute later at 7 

9 A Okay. 

10 Q 52. 

11 A Oh, okay. 

12 Q So could that be 16 minutes? 

13 A Could be, yes. 

14 Q Anything unusual on pushback? 

15 A Nothing. 

16 Q Did you experience any delays? 

17 A No, no delays. 

18 Q Was the runway clear for you to 

19 depart on? 

20 A It was. We were the only aircraft 

21 on that side of the aircraft [verbatim] 

22 Q Any traffic ln the alley that 

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1 would have prevented you from departing? 

2 A None. 

3 Q Standard pushback and exit? 

4 A Yep, that's correct. 

5 MR. EMERSON: That's all, Mr. 

6 Gibbs, not just from me. It's somebody 

7 else's term. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Spitzer? 

9 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

12 BY MR. SPITZER: 

13 Q Good afternoon, Captain Gibbs. 

14 I'm Robert Spitzer, counsel for the FAA. Just 

15 have a few questions for you. 

16 Mr. Gibbs, you have 9,500 hours or 

17 so of flying experience. Correct? 

18 A At SkyWest, that's correct. 

19 Q How many total -- how much time 

20 total do you have? 

21 A 11,000, somewhere in there. 

22 Q So that 9000 hours in flying 

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1 9,500 hours of flying experience you have, has 

2 that all been based at Salt Lake City Airport? 

3 A No, no. 

4 Q How long have you been based at 

5 Salt Lake City Airport? 

6 A I'm not based at Salt Lake any 

7 longer. I'm based in Phoenix. 

8 Q How long were you based at Salt 

9 Lake City for? 

10 A On and off, probably around three 

11 years. 

12 Q And during the course of those 

13 three years -- that was all with you as a 

14 captain. Is that correct? 

15 A I was on the Brasilia as a first 

16 officer for about six months there. 

17 Q Just out of curiosity, how many 

18 flights would you say you conducted out of the 

19 Salt Lake City Airport? 

20 A Thousands. I wouldn't -- I'd have 

21 to look that up. 

22 Q More than 2,000? 

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1 A A lot. You know, I couldn't give 

2 you an exact number without looking. 

3 Q So just just to help me 

4 understand SkyWest's operation, when you 

5 weren't based out of Salt Lake City, could you 

6 still be flying into Salt Lake City? 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q So -- so that's it's fair to 

9 say that a good percentage of your flights 

10 involve flights to or from Salt Lake City? 

11 A I was based in Chicago for three 

12 years. I flew out -- in and out of Chicago 

13 for three years. I was based in Denver and 

14 based in Phoenix. I was based in Houston. So 

15 there's multiple places I've flown in and out 

16 of in the country. 

17 Q But Salt Lake City you've flown in 

18 and out of thousands of times. 

19 A As well as Chicago and Denver. 

20 Q Okay. So when you were flying in 

21 2011, December 2011, were you based at Salt 

22 Lake City? 

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1 A Yes, that's correct. 

2 Q And how long before that were you 

3 based at Salt Lake City? 

4 A I think probably a year and a 

5 half, maybe two years. 

6 Q And how long after this flight 

7 were you based at Salt Lake City? 

8 A Another year, year and a half. 

9 Q Now, it's your testimony this 

10 flight was -- was a normal flight. Correct? 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q There was nothing unusual about 

13 this flight. Right? 

14 A That's correct. 

15 Q This flight was from -- from 

16 your perspective as a pilot, a routine flight. 

17 Correct? 

18 A Very normal, that's correct. 

19 Q And it would have been your 

20 standard practice to trade off with with 

21 the first officer flying this flight. 

22 Correct? 

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1 A My practice is to trade off round 

2 trips. So I would fly a round trip, then he 

3 would fly a round trip or she and then I 

4 would. 

5 Q But it's your testimony that ln 

6 this particular -- on this particular flight 

7 you don't remember who was the PIC of that 

8 flight. Correct? 

9 A I was the PIC of the flight. 

10 Q Sorry. Who was who was the 

11 pilot flying that flight? 

12 A I can't recall, that's correct. 

13 Q During the taxi did anything 

14 abnormal occur on the flight as you remember 

15 it? 

16 A No. 

17 Q How about the pushback? 

18 A Pushback was normal. 

19 Q So when you when we look at 

20 these ACAR datas [verbatim] -- if you could 

21 turn to Exhibit 6 which is in front of you, I 

22 think you stated that the aircraft -- the 

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1 cargo door would have closed at 1451 Zulu. Is 

2 that correct? 

3 A That's what the paper indicates, 

4 yes. 

5 Q Do you remember the time that --

6 that you guys left the gate? 

7 A The exact time? 

8 Q Without relying on the ACARS data, 

9 would you be able to tell me the exact time 

10 that you left the gate? 

11 A No. I've operated thousands of 

12 flights in and out of Salt Lake. I wouldn't 

13 remember one specific exact time. 

14 Q So -- so your recollection of what 

15 times you you conducted this flight on and 

16 what time things happened on, they're 

17 supported only by this ACAR data. Correct? 

18 A Their support I have a 

19 schedule. I could pull up my schedule and see 

20 the times as well. 

21 Q Did you pull up that schedule when 

22 you came up with the times like the -- how 

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1 long you were waiting at various spots? 

2 A No. That's just how I remember 

3 it. I can't remember exact time we left, but 

4 7:50 is about the right time. We were on time 

5 so we arrived in St. George on time as well. 

6 Q Okay. Thank you. 

7 Now, talking about the pushback 

8 procedure generally, the -- the ACARS system 

9 will record a bunch of specific actions that 

10 the plane takes. Is that correct? 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q And walk me through what would 

13 happen on a on a pushback. So if I 

14 understand this correctly, the tug is hooked 

15 up to the aircraft. Correct? 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q And the baggage doors were closed. 

18 Correct? 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q And then the passenger door would 

21 be closed. Maybe not in that order but ... 

22 A Yeah, that's correct. 

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1 Q And then at some point do -- you 

2 as the pilot or the first officer would 

3 release the parking brake on the aircraft. 

4 Correct? 

5 A Correct. 

6 Q And the ACARS data would register 

7 the push starting as when the aircraft starts 

8 moving, when the tires start rolling as it's 

9 leaving the gate. Correct? 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q And that departure from the gate, 

12 that's not typically under the aircraft's own 

13 power. Right? 

14 A When we push back? 

15 Q Yes. 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q So the tug is providing the push 

18 for you to leave the gate. Correct? 

19 A Correct. That is correct. 

20 Q And then once the -- once the tug 

21 finishes putting you into position, you're 

22 aware the tug has happened, that you are --

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1 the tug driver would call you either on the 

2 interphone or through some other means and 

3 tell you to set the parking break. Is that 

4 correct? 

5 A Correct. Normally it's hand 

6 signals. That's correct. 

7 Q So -- but it's fair to say that 

8 somebody would communicate to you to set the 

9 parking brake after the pushback happened. 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q And then once the parking brake 

12 had been set, the tug would drive off. 

13 Correct? 

14 A That's correct. 

15 Q And then the you guys would 

16 start the engines and begin your taxi. 

17 Correct? 

18 A That's not correct. We start the 

19 engines on pushback. 

20 Q So so the aircraft is being 

21 pushed back, you're spooling the engines up, 

22 so the engines are running by the time the tug 

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1 has let go? 

2 A Most of the time both engines are 

3 running by the time -- by the time the tug 

4 leaves. 

5 Q How about this particular flight? 

6 A As far as I can remember, yes, 

7 both engines were running before the tug left. 

8 Q But do you have a specific 

9 recollection of when you started them on this 

10 flight or is it a general recollection? 

11 A Just a general recollection. 

12 Q Mr. Gibbs, you never conducted a 

13 walk-around when the aircraft was on the 

14 ground in -- in Salt Lake City. Correct? 

15 A That's correct. 

16 Q So you were-- and it's fine, but 

17 you were relying upon your first officer's 

18 walk-around. Correct? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q When we talk about the -- the fuel 

21 door, help me understand what that involves. 

22 I believe the fuel door is on the right hand 

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1 or starboard side of aircraft. Correct? 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q And it's located at the wing root 

4 of the aircraft. 

5 A That's correct. 

6 Q So -- and the -- the main cabin 

7 door on this aircraft is located on the port 

8 side at the front of the aircraft just aft of 

9 the cockpit. Correct? 

10 A That's correct. 

11 Q So the path that your first 

12 officer would have taken would have been in 

13 front of the nose of the aircraft and then 

14 around in front of the aircraft over to the 

15 right to the wing. Correct? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q And at no point in his -- ln his 

18 path would he have walked behind the wing of 

19 the aircraft. Correct? 

20 A That's more than likely correct. 

21 Q Do you remember specifically where 

22 he walked on this flight? 

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1 A For the fuel door check? 

2 Q Yes. 

3 A Probably just to the fuel door and 

4 back. 

5 Q Do you have any specific 

6 recollection of watching him walk-around the 

7 aircraft to -- to get to the fuel door? 

8 A To the back of the aircraft during 

9 the fuel door check? 

10 Q Do you do you have any 

11 recollection at all of observing him as he 

12 walked out of the aircraft to the fuel door? 

13 A Not when he checked the fuel door, 

14 no. 

15 Q You just can't remember that? 

16 A No. I saw him earlier do the 

17 walk-around where he went back behind the wing 

18 earlier when we got into Salt Lake from St. 

19 George. When he went back to check the fuel 

20 door, I just know that he left to check the 

21 fuel door and I was programming the flight 

22 data system with the weight and balance. 

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1 Q But you never observed him check 

2 the fuel door. Correct? 

3 A I did not. 

4 Q You never observed ice on this 

5 aircraft at any point. Right? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q During this layover on the ground. 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q So you never observed ice on the 

10 aircraft or frost on the aircraft when you --

11 when you arrived at it -- this is a term. 

12 Withdrawn. 

13 You never observed frost on the 

14 aircraft at the time the first officer was 

15 conducting his preflight. Right? 

16 A No. I was in the cockpit. 

17 Q Could you have observed the frost 

18 from the cockpit? 

19 A Unlikely. 

20 Q Why is that? 

21 A It's -- you only can see out the 

22 cockpit, especially out the right -- or the 

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1 right I can't say any part of the wing. Out 

2 the left I can I can see the winglet that 

3 tips out there, the tip of the wing. 

4 Q Did you observe Inspector Perkins 

5 conducting his -- his check of the aircraft 

6 before you departed? 

7 A No. The only time I saw him was 

8 after we pushed back talking to the ramp 

9 people. 

10 Q Mr. Gibbs, you still work for 

11 SkyWest Airlines. Correct? 

12 A That's correct. 

13 MR. SPITZER: One second, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

16 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Just a few more 

17 questions, Mr. Gibbs. 

18 Turning again to Exhibit 6, the --

19 the ACARS data from this aircraft. And as you 

20 stand right now with the state of your memory, 

21 this is the only log of the time that the 

22 aircraft that still exists for you. Is 

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1 that correct? 

2 A As far as I know. I can -- like I 

3 said, I can go back and look at my schedule. 

4 Q But you have no independent 

5 recollection on whether these times are 

6 accurate or inaccurate. Right? 

7 A Well, we check the clock to make 

8 sure the clock's correct, and it tells the 

9 ACARS what time it is. 

10 Q Right. But separate from this 

11 ACARS data, sitting here today, you couldn't 

12 quibble with the 1451. You couldn't say, no, 

13 I remember that as being a different time. Is 

14 that fair? 

15 A No, these are the correct times. 

16 Q They're the correct times because 

17 they're written in here. Correct? 

18 A Well, we check the clock on our 

19 preflight during our preflight checks. The 

20 clock tells the ACARS what time it is. So 

21 these times are what the time is. I don't 

22 understand what you're getting at. 

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1 Q I'm trying to figure out -- you 

2 don't have any independent memory of these --

3 of these times. Correct? 

4 A Other than the clock, no, I don't 

5 have any other independent information of the 

6 time. 

7 Q Okay. So looking at the data that 

8 are on page -- page 3, we see the entry at the 

9 top of the page. It says 1452:00 Zulu and it 

10 says push/movement. 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q This -- you said that this was the 

13 this is the push event. Right? This is 

14 the start of taxi. 

15 A Right. 

16 Q The start withdrawn. 

17 The start of the pushback 

18 procedure. 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q The next event that's here is 

21 1458:00 Zulu. And it says, "Brake set." Is 

22 that fair to say that that's the point at 

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1 which you or your first officer applied the 

2 brake to disconnect the tug? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q The next entry we see on here is 

5 at 1500 Zulu, and it says, ''Brake release." 

6 Is that fair to say that that's the point that 

7 you release the brake to taxi away from the 

8 position that the aircraft was towed into? 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q And the next item of data that we 

11 have is 1502. It says, ''Brake set.'' 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q As you sit here today, do you 

14 believe that that's the time that you showed 

15 up at what you have identified as spot 21? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And then it says at 1504 Zulu, 

18 "Brake release." As you sit here today, do 

19 you believe that's the time that you left spot 

20 21? 

21 A Yes, that's correct. 

22 Q And is it fair to say also that a 

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1 period of two minutes elapsed from the brake 

2 set as you entered spot 21 to 1504 where the 

3 brake was released as you left spot 21? 

4 A Yeah, that would be correct. 

5 Q And then the last entry is the 

6 1508, so 8:08. This shows the aircraft as 

7 off, which means that's that's when the 

8 squat switch is extended, the aircraft is --

9 is airborne. Is that correct? 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q So a period of about four minutes 

12 elapsed from you leaving spot 21 to arriving 

13 or to actually getting into the air. 

14 A That would be that would be 

15 correct. 

16 Q Earlier, Mr. Gibbs, you stated 

17 during your testimony in the direct 

18 examination by your counsel that the aircraft 

19 was parked at spot 21 for six minutes. 

20 Looking at these ACAR data here, would you now 

21 say that the aircraft was stopped at spot 21 

22 for only two minutes? 

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1 A That-- yeah, that's-- ACARS is 

2 correct. 

3 Q One additional math question, Mr. 

4 Gibbs. I apologize for these questions. 

5 A That's okay. 

6 Q Looking back on the third page of 

7 this document, you testified that the -- the 

8 time marked 1500 Zulu is identified as brake 

9 release, and you testified that that was the 

10 point at which your jet left the spot that it 

11 had been pushed to on the pushback. Correct? 

12 A Correct. You know, I don' t 

13 that's what I have to go with, what this says. 

14 So that would make sense that after the push 

15 we set the brake and then we started moving --

16 after 7:58 we started moving at 8:00 to start 

17 taxiing. 

18 Q And the aircraft was off at -- at 

19 8:08, so the taxi time from the spot the 

2 o aircraft was pushed to to when it was airborne 

21 was eight minutes. Correct? 

22 A That's correct. 

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1 Q Do you remember what the lighting 

2 conditions were like on the morning of 

3 December 7, 2011? 

4 A Light. It was day out. 

5 Q Was it a brilliant sunshine just 

6 just after sunrise? Just generally could 

7 you describe the lighting condition? 

8 A There was no -- it was daytime. 

9 It was it was in the morning. It was 

10 daytime. 

11 Q Was it dark when your first 

12 officer conducted his preflight? 

13 A No. 

14 Q Was it also daytime when your 

15 first officer conducted his preflight? 

16 A Was it dark when he conducted his 

17 preflight 

18 Q Yes. 

19 A -- or was it daylight? 

20 Q Yes. 

21 A It was daytime and light when he 

22 walked around the aircraft. 

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1 Q Same description of the light when 

2 he did the walk-around, it was daylight, not 

3 twilight or --

4 A Right. 

5 Q Do you remember if the aircraft 

6 was in the shadow when it was parked at the 

7 gate? 

8 A I don't recall. 

9 MR. SPITZER: No further 

10 questions, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

12 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

13 BY MR. EMERSON: 

14 Q Mr. Gibbs, you testified that this 

15 was a routine flight, was a flight to St. 

16 George. Are there other factors you might 

17 consider as a pilot on a flight to St. George? 

18 A St. George is our headquarters, so 

19 a lot of times we have the president, vice 

20 president, or management on the aircraft, a 

21 lot of company employees. 

22 Q You're always cautious when you 

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1 operate an aircraft. Would you operate with 

2 even more caution operating a flight to 

3 headquarters? 

4 A Echo 1 is directly underneath our 

5 chief pilot's office, and obviously with St. 

6 George we always know that we're going to have 

7 somebody in our direct management on the 

8 aircraft. 

9 Q You said your engines were -- were 

10 started there at the gate. 

11 A On pushback that's our practice to 

12 start the engines. That's correct. 

13 Q When the engines are running is 

14 there a mechanism where the fuel can be heated 

15 that you took on board? 

16 A There is. 

17 Q What is that mechanism? 

18 A It's a motoflow that draws fuel 

19 from the tanks as they -- fuel comes up to it, 

20 there's an oil-fuel exchange that heats the 

21 fuel and pools the oil and then that -- some 

22 of that fuel returns to the tank and warms the 

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1 tank. 

2 Q Mr. Spitzer asked you if you were 

3 still employed with the company. Do you have 

4 some pay incentive to avoid de-icing? 

5 A None. It's more of an incentive. 

6 We get paid by the minute. 

7 Q You stood to make more money if 

8 you stopped for de-icing. 

9 A Correct. 

10 MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything from you 

12 on that? 

13 MR. SPITZER: Nothing further from 

14 the Administrator. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further need 

16 of this witness? 

17 MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Captain, I'm going 

19 to admonish you not to discuss your testimony 

20 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

21 hearing. You're free to go. 

22 THE WITNESS: Can I stay in the 

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1 courtroom, Your Honor? 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to the two 

3 attorneys. I don't care. 

4 MR. EMERSON: It's fine by me, 

5 Your Honor. 

6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, as long 

7 as he's not planning on testifying anymore --

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Same same 

9 admonition to anybody else staying in the 

10 courtroom. 

11 You can step down if you want to 

12 remain ln the courtroom. 

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 

14 (Discussion off the record.) 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 

16 your right hand. 

17 (Witness sworn.) 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

19 State your full name and spell your first and 

20 last name. 

21 THE WITNESS: Full name is Dennis 

22 Michael Burr, D-E-N-N-I-S, and then Burr, 

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1 B-U-R-R. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

3 DENNIS MICHAEL BURR, 

4 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

5 was examined and testified as follows: 

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. EMERSON: 

8 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Burr. How are 

9 you employed? 

10 A By SkyWest Airlines. 

11 Q What's your position at SkyWest? 

12 A First officer. 

13 Q How long have you been a first 

14 officer at SkyWest? 

15 A Oh, about six and a half years. 

16 Q What aircraft do you currently 

17 operate? 

18 A CRJ all three variants. 

19 Q The 200, 700, and 900? 

20 A Correct. 

21 Q Have you always operated those 

22 aircraft for SkyWest Airlines? 

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1 A As long as I've been employed 

2 there. 

3 Q How many hours do you have in the 

4 CRJ? 

5 A Oh, probably about 5,000. 

6 Q In all three types total? 

7 A Uh-huh. 

8 Q Did you accumulate any time in the 

9 RJ prior to coming to SkyWest? 

10 A No. 

11 Q Did you operate any other aircraft 

12 prior to coming to SkyWest? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q What did you operate? 

15 A Flew at Utah Valley University 

16 well it's a university now, but at that time 

17 it was Utah Valley State College. 

18 Q You flew aircraft there? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Were you a flight instructor? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q How long were you a flight 

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1 instructor? 

2 A Two years. 

3 Q Where did you attend school post 

4 high school? 

5 A Utah Valley State College which is 

6 now Utah Valley University. 

7 Q Did you receive a degree from that 

8 institution? 

9 A I did. 

10 Q Did you graduate with any honors? 

11 A Magna cum laude. 

12 Q You speak any foreign languages? 

13 A I do. I -- I speak Russian. 

14 Q Russian? 

15 Did you receive any other 

16 education after leaving Utah Valley 

17 University? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Have you ever been disciplined by 

20 the FAA? 

21 A No. 

22 Q Do you currently hold an ATP 

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1 certificate? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Have you ever had that certificate 

4 suspended? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Revoked? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Does SkyWest have a de-icing 

9 program? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Have you been trained in that 

12 program? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Do you know why SkyWest would have 

15 a de-icing program? 

16 A For safety. 

17 Q What safety is put forward by 

18 having a de-icing program? 

19 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

20 Honor. Foundation. 

21 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Do you know --

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll sustain that 

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1 objection. 

2 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Do you know what 

3 the de-icing program is designed to 

4 accomplish? 

5 A Yeah. To make sure airplanes take 

6 off in a safe condition. 

7 Q In a safe condition. 

8 A Yeah. 

9 Q Without contaminants on the wings? 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q Why is that important? 

12 A Because --

13 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 A If you --

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

17 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Go ahead. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll overrule 

19 understanding it goes to weight, Counsel. 

20 Q (By MR. EMERSON) What is it 

21 important to take off without a contaminant on 

22 your wings? 

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1 A Because if you've got 

2 contamination on your wings, they don't create 

3 the correct lift like a clean wing would and 

4 they create more drag. 

5 Q Have you ever knowingly operated 

6 an aircraft from ground to take off with 

7 contaminant on its wings? 

8 A No. 

9 Q By contaminant I mean snow, ice, 

10 or frost. 

11 A No. 

12 Q Were you one of the pilots on 

13 Flight 7770 operated out of Salt Lake City 

14 International Airport on December 7, 2011? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q What was your role on that flight? 

17 A First officer. 

18 Q Did you perform any preflight 

19 operations for Flight 7770? 

20 A I did. 

21 Q What were those? 

22 A So it ' s combined as a -- you know, 

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1 a post/preflight inspection of the aircraft, 

2 and you go walk-around the aircraft and make 

3 sure that everything's -- as far as you can 

4 tell is in good working order as far as you 

5 know, you don't have any bald tires or bird 

6 strikes or anything. When the temperature is 

7 colder outside, you check and make sure you 

8 haven't accumulated any ice or frost or 

9 anything like that. I call it a cold weather 

10 inspection. 

11 Q Was the temperature cold enough to 

12 perform a cold weather inspection on December 

13 7th? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Did you perform a cold weather 

16 inspection? 

17 A I did. 

18 Q What does that entail? 

19 A Going-- basically it's looking at 

20 the wings and making sure that there isn't 

21 anything frozen on the airplane. So you-- as 

22 you do your walk-around, you can touch the 

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1 wings -- you know, they call it a tactile 

2 check-- to make it easier for you to identify 

3 if there's anything frozen on the wing or not. 

4 You know, as I walk around the airplane, I do 

5 that on on both wings. 

6 Q Did you perform both a visual and 

7 tactile inspection of the wings on Flight 

8 77707 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Did you detect any contaminants on 

11 those wings? 

12 A No. 

13 Q Did you feel there was enough 

14 ambient light to perform that or did you need 

15 a flashlight? 

16 A No, there was enough ambient 

17 light. 

18 Q I would like you to look at 

19 Exhibit 3. It should be there in front of you 

20 loosely and not in that book. Are there any 

21 loose exhibits there? No? 

22 MR. EMERSON: Did you take those 

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1 back? 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: They 1 re up here. 

3 Here you go. 

4 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 

5 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Those are 

6 numbered. If you look at the yellow sticker, 

7 go to Exhibit 3, please. Yes. 

8 Can you tell what 1 s depicted in 

9 this picture? 

10 A Yeah, it looks like the trailing 

11 edge of the wing out near the end. 

12 Q Left or right wing? 

13 A Probably, I 1 d say, the right wing. 

14 Q Do you see the areas that have 

15 rivets in it in this picture? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q About how big are those areas? 

18 A Probably about a foot. 

19 Q One square foot? 

20 A Yeah, probably. Yeah. 

21 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, the 

22 evidence -- he 1 s indicating with his hand what 

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1 he believes the size to be of these panels. 

2 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Would you hold 

3 those up and show the judge again? 

4 A Probably about. 

5 Q So I have a ruler here that's one 

6 foot. 

7 A Like you're talking from here to 

8 here? 

9 Q Yes. 

10 A Yeah, that's about a foot. 

11 Q Between the rivets, about a foot 

12 each way? 

13 A Yeah. 

14 Q The aircraft wing, how how 

15 large is the right wing of the CRJ200, if you 

16 know? 

17 A Well, the wing span is like 69 and 

18 half feet. You mean like square footage of 

19 the wing? 

20 Q Just from the root to the tip. Do 

21 you know how far out that is? 

22 A Well, let's see. Yeah, I can 

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1 figure it out real quick. It's going to be 

2 about -- yeah, about 60 feet, about 60 feet. 

3 Q From tip to tip of the wings? 

4 A Oh, from from tip to tip, like 

5 69 and a half feet. 

6 Q Sixty-nine. So from root to tip 

7 of one of the wings less than half of that? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q If the root of the wing was at the 

10 glass, would the tip of the wing reach the 

11 wall? 

12 A Pretty close, yeah. 

13 Q Look again at this picture, 

14 Exhibit No. 3. You'll see something depicted 

15 between the rivets, and there are four panels. 

16 You can see two and a half of them. Is that 

17 right? There's a panel to the right side of 

18 the photograph with just a little sliver 

19 there. But if I cover the panels with this 

20 piece of paper with the frost there, do you 

21 believe, one, two, three --

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 

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1 yes. 

2 A Yes, yes. 

3 Q Okay. Do you know what the total 

4 square footage of that wing is? 

5 A Oh, probably about 500 well, 

6 let's see. About 560. 

7 Q For both wings. So what would one 

8 wing square footage be? 

9 A Half of that, so like 230 -- yeah, 

10 250. 

11 Q Somewhere around 250 square foot. 

12 This picture depicts perhaps three square of 

13 those feet with some form of contaminant on 

14 it, would you agree? 

15 A Yeah. Yes. 

16 Q Why don't you look at that chart 

17 right next to you. That's Exhibit 2 in your 

18 book, but we'll look at it here together. 

19 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor I 'm going 

20 to object to showing this exhibit. This 

21 violates the sequester order that's currently 

22 in place. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

2 MR. EMERSON: I'll make sure that 

3 I don't. 

4 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, there's 

5 no way to avoid that. It's -- at this point 

6 it's -- it's pretty obvious what that shows. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's not obvious. 

8 It's on the record, Counsel, so it's 

9 overruled. 

10 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Look at your 

11 book, Exhibit 2 in the book. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 2 or 

13 

14 MR. EMERSON: Respondent's 2. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- Agency 2? 

16 MR. EMERSON: Yes, Respondent 1 s 2, 

17 Your Honor. 

18 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Can you tell what 

19 is depicted in Exhibit No. 2? 

20 A Looks like the end of E concourse 

21 in Salt Lake. 

22 Q You operated aircraft in and out 

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1 of that concourse? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q In fact Flight 7770 left from that 

4 concourse didn't it? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Do you remember which gate? 

7 A Echo 1, E1. 

8 Q So you taxied out. Do you 

9 remember whether you went straight to the end 

10 of that runway or if you were held at any 

11 position? 

12 A We taxied out to spot 21, and we 

13 waited there for the ground control to call 

14 us. 

15 Q Okay. Now look at the blowup 

16 picture there. 

17 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 

18 Honor. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

20 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Can you there 

21 are 1 ines all over the place: Green one, red 

22 one, other lines. Do you see a line that 

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1 represents the taxi path that your aircraft 

2 took on morning of December 7th or is there 

3 another path that you would indicate? 

4 A It would have been --

5 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

8 A -- the red line. 

9 Q The red line indicates 

10 A Uh-huh. 

11 Q -- the path that your --

12 A That X right there is about where 

13 spot 21 would be. 

14 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

17 If you want to, Counsel, you can 

18 just indicate a continuing objection. 

19 MR. SPITZER: Okay, Your Honor. I 

20 didn't --

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's it's --

22 either way. I understand what you're doing. 

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1 You can either object individually or 

2 continuing. It's up to you. The Court will 

3 note that there's a continuing objection. 

4 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 Q (By MR. EMERSON) You taxied out, 

7 you said, to spot 21? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Did your aircraft hold there for 

10 any point in time? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q And then from there where did your 

13 aircraft go? 

14 A Continued down the Bravo taxiway 

15 down to the end of the runway. 

16 Q Do you know if you were taxiing 

17 the aircraft yourself? 

18 A No, I wasn't taxiing the aircraft. 

19 Q Who was? 

20 A The captain. 

21 Q What was your function on the 

22 flight at that time? 

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1 A Monitor. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: What? 

3 THE WITNESS: Pilot monitor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I I 

5 didn't hear you --

6 Q (By MR. EMERSON) What did you --

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: that's why. 

8 Q (By MR. EMERSON) What did you 

9 monitor? 

10 A Just that we were making the 

11 correct taxi route. 

12 Q Would it make sense to you to taxi 

13 to spot 23? 

14 A No. That's an inbound spot. 

15 Q I'm sorry. You say that's an 

16 inbound 

17 A Twenty-three is an inbound spot. 

18 Twenty-two would be -- if you're going out, 

19 most likely you'd go out through spot 22 which 

20 is, you know, right there. But I mean that 

21 wouldn't -- yeah, that wouldn't make sense 

22 because you would kind of back taxi to go 

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1 around the terminal and then go out. 

2 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I would 

3 like the record to reflect that the witness 

4 pointed to 22 which is next to 23 on here. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. I 

6 didn't hear you. 

7 MR. SPITZER: I would like the 

8 record to record that the witness has pointed 

9 to spot 22 which is next to spot 23. 

10 A I'm not sure what -- we taxied out 

11 to spot 21. 

12 Q The end of the E concourse leaving 

13 from El, would it make sense to take a 

14 left-hand turn and and go go south 

15 across the ramp where the green line 

16 indicates? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Why not? 

19 A There's more congestion and 

20 traffic that way usually from other aircraft 

21 pushing back. 

22 Q I want you to look back at Exhibit 

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1 No. 3 again. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Three or four? 

3 MR. EMERSON: No. 3, and this is 

4 Administrator's 3. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh. 

6 Q (By MR. EMERSON) You did the 

7 tactile test for the wings on 7770. Correct? 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q Does this photo represent what you 

10 observed when you performed your test? 

11 A No. 

12 Q What did you observe? 

13 A A clean wing. 

14 Q What does a clean wing mean? 

15 A Meaning it didn't have any frozen 

16 contaminants on it like frost, ice, snow. 

17 Q Did you 

18 A It was a dry wing, too. I mean, 

19 it didn't have liquid on it either. 

20 Q It was dry and clean, no liquid or 

21 frozen contaminants at all? 

22 A Correct. 

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1 Q Did you feel any frozen 

2 contaminants when you ran your finger across 

3 

4 A No. 

5 Q -- the wing? 

6 Would you depart an aircraft from 

7 a runway without first getting de-icing if 

8 this condition was on your wings? 

9 A No. 

10 Q Why not? 

11 A Unsafe and illegal. 

12 Q Yeah. 

13 A It's against company policy. I 

14 mean there's a lot of reasons, just 

15 Q The first one you said is unsafe. 

16 Do you care about your own personal safety? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q What about the safety of the 

19 passengers onboard? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q You married, sir? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Do you have children? 

2 A Three. 

3 Q What were the atmospheric 

4 conditions on that morning when you pushed 

5 back from the gate? 

6 A Dry and clear, clear sky. 

7 Q Were there any clouds? 

8 A No. 

9 Q The sun was up? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q What was the visibility? 

12 A Really good, like more than 10 

13 miles. 

14 Q Did you taxi in full sunshine? 

15 A Yes. 

16 MR. EMERSON: No further 

17 questions. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

19 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

22 BY MR. SPITZER: 

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1 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Burr. I'm Rob 

2 Spitzer, counsel for the FAA. 

3 During the course of your 

4 employment at SkyWest, is it fair to say that 

5 you've operated into the Salt Lake City 

6 Airport numerous times? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Approximately how many times did 

9 you operate into the Salt Lake City airport? 

10 A A lot. That's going to take a 

11 little bit of figuring out but --

12 Q Just give me a ballpark. 

13 Thousands? Hundreds? Tens? 

14 A Like on a typical week, I'd say I 

15 go in and out of there five or six times at 

16 least. 

17 Q Was the week of December 7, 2011, 

18 a typical week with regard to frequency going 

19 through the Salt Lake City Airport? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q So it's fair to say that during 

22 that week you went through the airport -- Salt 

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1 Lake City Airport five to seven times? 

2 A Yeah. 

3 Q And your testimony today is that 

4 you did the -- the preflight inspection on --

5 on Flight 770 [sic] on December 7, 2011. 

6 Right? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Do you remember what time you did 

9 that preflight inspection? 

10 A Well, it would have been in 

11 between when we arrived and when we left. I 

12 mean, I think we were only on the ground about 

13 40 minutes. And I remember the -- we unloaded 

14 the passengers, helped cross the seatbelts, 

15 and it would have been after that time that I 

16 did the inspection. 

17 Q So sometime maybe 10, 15 minutes 

18 after arrival and another 20 minutes before 

19 departure. Is that fair? 

20 A I probably would have been 

21 about 20 minutes after arrival, 20 minutes 

22 before departure. 

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1 Q Was there anything unusual about 

2 this flight? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Anything that sticks in your mind 

5 in particular? 

6 A Like the FAA meeting us when we 

7 got back to the gate? 

8 Q Just in terms of the flight 

9 itself, was there anything that was unusual 

10 about that flight? 

11 A No. 

12 Q So you didn't -- did you observe 

13 Inspector Perkins looking at your aircraft? 

14 A No. 

15 Q Did anything unusual happen when 

16 the aircraft was on the ground? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Anything unusual happen during the 

19 taxi and pushback sequence? 

20 A No. 

21 Q Was it a congested morning at the 

22 Echo terminal? 

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1 A Not for us. 

2 Q How about just generally, was 

3 there a lot going on that morning at the 

4 terminal or was it pretty much empty? 

5 A I would say it was about average 

6 activity. There was airplanes at other gates 

7 and stuff. 

8 Q We were talking about the -- the 

9 preflight walk-around that you did, and your 

10 testimony is that you performed a -- a tactile 

11 inspection of the aircraft's wings. Correct? 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q And you also did a visual 

14 inspection. Correct? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Do you remember what the lighting 

17 conditions were like at the time you did this 

18 this preflight inspection? 

19 A You mean as far as the sun being 

20 up? Yeah, the sun was up and it was a clear 

21 sky. 

22 Q So when you say the sun was up, 

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1 was it bright sunlight, daytime sunlight, 

2 twilight sunlight? What was the overall 

3 lighting? 

4 A Well, when we left St. George, it 

5 was really black or dark, and as we started 

6 coming the light got -- sky gets lighter and 

7 lighter and lighter. And as you get up here 

8 to Salt Lake, it was pretty light. And by the 

9 time we landed in Salt Lake it was pretty 

10 light. I mean --

11 Q What time, approximately, did you 

12 land in Salt Lake? 

13 A Would have been a little bit 

14 before 8:00. 

15 Q If I told you that it was before 

16 7:20, would that sound appropriate to you? 

17 A Could have been, probably, yeah. 

18 Q How about before 7:30, would that 

19 sound appropriate to you, more appropriate? 

20 A I guess, yeah. 

21 Q So your testimony is that when you 

22 touched down, when the aircraft landed at Salt 

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1 Lake, it was -- it was bright daylight. Is 

2 that correct? 

3 A I I wouldn't say bright 

4 daylight, but you for sure wouldn't need a 

5 flashlight if you were outside walking around. 

6 Q Was the sun over the horizon? 

7 A When we touched down it may not 

8 have been up behind the mountains at that 

9 point, but I believe -- you know, if you get 

10 all scientific, I believe it was over the --

11 over the horizon. 

12 Q Okay. How about when you were 

13 doing the walk-around, was it -- was the sun 

14 visible in the sky at that time? 

15 A I believe it was. 

16 Q Could you indicate for me, Mr. 

17 Burr, approximately where on your body the 

18 aircraft trailing edge of the wing would --

19 would strike you at the winglet? 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, it might 

21 be better if he -- we run into the problem we 

22 had earlier. We don't have-- it's not being 

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1 videotaped. It might be better if he -- if 

2 you ask him how tall he is and where on his 

3 body the wing would be. I think you'll end up 

4 with the same. 

5 Q (By MR. SPITZER) All right. So 

6 the 

7 A Where the turning edge of the wing 

8 would be if I walked past it? 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

10 Q (By MR. EMERSON) So, Mr. Burr, if 

11 you were to walk up to the trailing edge of 

12 the right wing at the point that the winglet 

13 is, where on your body -- if you could just 

14 describe where on your body that wing would 

15 would strike you. 

16 A Probably about right here. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN : Where is that? 

18 Tell me where on your body it is. See, here's 

19 the problem. 

20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: And we do this all 

22 the time. If this goes up on appeal, we have 

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1 a description-- we have a transcript, and the 

2 transcript will say, well the, wing hit me 

3 here. Well, the person reading the transcript 

4 doesn't no where here is. 

5 THE WITNESS: Okay. So when I say 

6 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, first of all, 

8 how tall are you? 

9 THE WITNESS: I'm 5'6". 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. And 

11 where would where would the wing 

12 Counsel, the forward or the trailing edge? 

13 MR. SPITZER: The trailing edge, 

14 Your Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Where would the 

16 trailing edge of the right wing hit you on 

17 your body if you were to walk up to a normal 

18 CRJ? 

19 THE WITNESS: Probably about 

20 halfway through the torso. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. 

22 Counsel, do you want to elaborate 

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1 on that? 

2 MR. SPITZER: That clarifies it 

3 for me, Your Honor. Thank you. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Wait for the next 

5 question. 

6 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Burr, it's 

7 your testimony that you never noticed frost on 

8 the wing at any time. Correct? 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q And you did a tactile inspection 

11 of the leading edge of the wing. Correct? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And you did a tactile check of the 

14 flaps of the wing? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And did you also do a tactile 

17 check of the top surface of the aircraft's 

18 wing? 

19 A As far as I could reach. I can't 

20 reach the whole top surface but ... 

21 Q Far into the wing, how many feet 

22 approximately, can you reach into the top of 

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1 the aircraft surface, the upper wing surface? 

2 A Three feet, two and a half feet, 

3 three feet. 

4 Q So is and when you do this 

5 check, where do you perform it from typically? 

6 A On the ground. 

7 Q With respect to the wing, do you 

8 do it from the trailing edge of the wing or 

9 the leading edge of the wing? 

10 A You walk around the whole 

11 airplane. So you walk around the leading 

12 edge, go out around the aileron and -- around 

13 the winglet and come back past the aileron and 

14 then the flaps. 

15 Q So just walk me through this so I 

16 understand. When you do this tactile check, 

17 you have to check the leading edge of the 

18 wing. Correct? Do you simultaneously check 

19 the upper wing surface with your hand? 

20 A Yes, we -- yeah. 

21 Q How does that work? 

22 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

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1 Relevance. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

3 A You just -- you can touch it. I 

4 guess maybe I don't understand your question. 

5 Q So you're you're walking along 

6 the leading edge of the wing in our 

7 hypothetical. Okay? How do you go about 

8 touching both the leading edge of the wing and 

9 the upper wing surface at the same time? 

10 MR. EMERSON: Again relevance. No 

11 evidence that there's any contaminant on the 

12 leading edge or upper surface of the forward 

13 portion of the wing. 

14 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, this 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

16 A So when you walk past them, you 

17 bring your fingers across it like this. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Like how? 

19 THE WITNESS: Just drag your 

20 fingers across it. If you're walking past it, 

21 you drag your fingers across it and rub your 

22 fingers on it. I guess, so you could touch 

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1 the leading edge and go up onto the top and 

2 back to the leading edge. Maybe I don't 

3 understand what you're asking. 

4 Q So when you would say you're 

5 inspecting the right wing of the aircraft. 

6 Your do you when you do your tactile 

7 inspection, do you run your hand down the 

8 length of the leading edge of the wing to 

9 check for frost or ice? 

10 A Yeah. Yeah, you -- yeah, I mean 

11 you just have to inspect the whole thing. I 

12 mean, you can touch it wherever. I mean, in 

13 some parts of the wing you can't touch. I 

14 mean I can't -- physically can't touch the 

15 the whole wing up on the part. But everything 

16 that I can touch, you know, you can touch it, 

17 make sure there's not frost on it or anything 

18 frozen. 

19 Q Okay. Mr. Burr, that's-- that's 

20 not my question. So the question is very 

21 simple. When you're doing this tactile 

22 inspection and you're checking the leading 

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1 edge, will you put your hand on the leading 

2 edge of the aircraft wing and walk the length 

3 of the wing? 

4 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

5 Relevance. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

7 A Yeah. 

8 Q So 

9 A So on the 200, yeah, you can ... 

10 Q Okay. So bear with me. So you're 

11 testifying that you walk along the leading 

12 edge of the wing and this is what you did on 

13 the morning of December 7, 2011, before you 

14 conducted Flight 7770 is that you walked along 

15 the leading edge of the wing and you felt the 

16 entire length of the leading edge of the wing 

17 with your hand. Is that correct? 

18 A No. 

19 Q How about the upper wing portion, 

20 did you feel the entire length of aircraft's 

21 wing with your hand? 

22 A So are you asking if I drug my 

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1 hand all the way across the upper surface of 

2 the wing? No. 

3 Q Yes, that's what I'm asking. And 

4 I need a verbal answer. 

5 A I said, "No." 

6 Q How much of the wing did you run 

7 your hand across? 

8 A I'd say the majority of -- of the 

9 wing as you walk past it. I mean, it's not 

10 not the full 200 and whatever square feet of 

11 the wing. But, you know, as you're walking 

12 past the area, you can touch it, helps you 

13 detect if there's any frozen stuff on the 

14 wing. 

15 Q And with the flaps, did you 

16 inspect the entire surface of the flap as you 

17 walked along it on the morning of December 7, 

18 2011? 

19 A Yeah. Because you can see the --

20 every part -- you know, when the flaps are 

21 retracted, yeah, you can walk across there and 

22 drag your finger across it. I mean -- so did 

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1 I touch every square inch of the flap? No. 

2 But, you know, you can drag your finger across 

3 it and see 

4 Q So it's fair to say that you did 

5 touch the entire length of the flap, though. 

6 Correct? 

7 A Yeah. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Did you 

9 say didn't or did touch? 

10 MR. SPITZER: Did. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Okay. 

12 Thank you. 

13 Q (By MR. SPITZER) So at your 

14 layover in Salt Lake City on the morning of 

15 December 7, 2011, the preflight walk-around 

16 that you conducted, it wasn't the only time 

17 that you left the aircraft. Correct? 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q You also left the aircraft to make 

20 sure that the fuel door was closed. Correct? 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q There are no other times that you 

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1 left the aircraft other than those two times. 

2 Correct? 

3 A Yeah, I'd say yeah. 

4 Q You testified earlier that you 

5 were the pilot monitoring during the taxi 

6 portion of this flight. Correct? 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q Were you the pilot flying during 

9 the actual flight? 

10 A I don't remember. I -- I 

11 Q It's fair to say that you're 

12 always the pilot monitoring as the first 

13 officer on the CRJ under SkyWest 's operations 

14 during taxi. Correct? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Because there's no tiller that's 

17 in the first officer's station. Correct? 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q But your testimony now is that you 

20 can't remember whether you were the pilot 

21 flying during the actual flight. Correct? 

22 A Yeah, I don't remember if it was 

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1 my leg to fly or his leg. 

2 Q And the inbound flight, you 

3 wouldn't be able to remember that either. 

4 Correct? 

5 A Yeah, I don't remember who flew 

6 which leg. 

7 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Just a few more 

8 questions, Mr. Burr. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't want 

10 anybody to panic, but we've got six minutes 

11 MR. SPITZER: I'll wrap it up. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: and that I can 

13 tell. Just -- every time every time you 

14 glance at the clock, Mr. Spitzer, I remind 

15 myself that I've been doing the same thing all 

16 day. What I'd like to do is take it down, but 

17 with my luck somebody would report it stolen 

18 and I get blamed for it so ... 

19 MR. SPITZER: Yeah, that would 

20 probably get you arrested. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, Counsel. 

22 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Mr. Burr, with 

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1 respect to the fuel panel, can you state 

2 approximately where on your body the fuel 

3 access panel strikes? 

4 A A little bit above where the 

5 trailing edge would have -- would have been, 

6 so probably two-thirds of the way through my 

7 torso. 

8 Q Closer to your neck? 

9 A Yeah. 

10 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I have 

11 no further questions for this witness. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 

13 Emerson, can you finish redirect in five 

14 minutes? 

15 MR. EMERSON: I can. And is 4:30 

16 a hard time, Your Honor? Can we go 10 minutes 

17 past? The reason I ask is I've got a pilot 

18 out here who I believe is really quick, not an 

19 operator, but just a percipient witness. And 

20 I'd like to get him back to the operation. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, here's 

22 here's the problem. It is fairly hard. I 

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1 don't have any objection, if Mr. Spitzer 

2 doesn't, if can this witness be available 

3 tomorrow first thing? 

4 MR. EMERSON: I don't know yet. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: What's your flight 

6 schedule tomorrow, sir? Are you working 

7 tomorrow? 

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: What time? 

10 THE WITNESS: I believe about 

11 10:00. 

12 MR. EMERSON: I'd just as soon be 

13 done with all the pilots today, so it doesn't 

14 help to interrupt if we can't go past 4:3 0, 

15 that's hard, then let's just finish redirect. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean, I hate to 

17 do that. But, you know, I'm a guest-- we are 

18 guests in their courtroom, and the last thing 

19 I want to do is get our hosts upset. 

20 MR. EMERSON: Understood. Nobody 

21 wants an audit. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Not another one. 

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1 What I would encourage the two of you, Mr. 

2 Spitzer, you and Mr. Anderson -- I don't mind 

3 taking witnesses out of sequence. It not 

4 being a jury trial it's easy to do. And if 

5 if you want to work with this -- this pilot in 

6 terms of the schedule tomorrow, that's fine 

7 with me. We can put him on first, last, 

8 middle. I don't care. I'll work with you on 

9 that. 

10 MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Your 

11 Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. You've got 

13 four minutes. 

14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. EMERSON: 

16 Q Mr. Burr, you said that this 

17 flight wasn't usual because the FAA showed up 

18 at the end of it 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q -- is that right? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Did you have a conversation with 

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1 somebody from the FAA? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Who did you have a conversation 

4 with? 

5 A Aaron Perkins, Ben Blauer, and I 

6 don't remember the other guy's name, but he 

7 didn't say too much. 

8 Q Mr. Perkins in the courtroom 

9 today? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q You recognize him? 

12 What was --

13 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Excuse 

14 me. 

15 A Yes, yes. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Thank 

17 you. 

18 Q (By MR. SPITZER) What did you 

19 discuss with Mr. Perkins? 

20 A When I came up on the airplane? 

21 Q Yes. 

22 A They said that we took off with 

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1 frozen contaminants on the wing. 

2 Q Let me set some time. You said 

3 when they came up on the airplane. You flew 

4 to St. George --

5 A Yes. 

6 Q -- turned around and came back. 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q So about what time of day did this 

9 meeting take place? 

10 A Probably about 11:00, 10:30, 

11 11:00. 

12 Q What did you discuss with Mr. 

13 Perkins? 

14 A Well, he had a cell phone or maybe 

15 an iPod [verbatim] , but had a picture on it, 

16 and he said this is the picture of your wing 

17 and with frozen contaminants on it. 

18 Q Did you view that picture? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Would you look at Exhibit 3? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Does Exhibit 3 represent the 

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1 picture that he showed you on his cell phone? 

2 A No. 

3 Q It's not the same picture? 

4 A It's not the same picture. 

5 Q How is it different? 

6 A Because the picture he showed us 

7 was so close to the wing you couldn't tell 

8 what part of the wing it was. So when we 

9 finished our conversation and the FAA hopped 

10 off the airplane, I hopped off and asked Mr. 

11 Perkins if he could show me what part of the 

12 wing he took the picture from, and he said 

13 yes. So we walked around to the right side of 

14 the wing behind the right wing, about the 

15 midpart of the wing, you know, from the root 

16 to the winglet. And he reached over and he 

17 was reaching up forward, quite a ways forward, 

18 and he was saying this panel and this panel 

19 and this panel, yeah, those three panels, 

20 that's where I took the picture from right up 

21 here. 

22 Q Had you inspected those panels 

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1 prior to departure? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Was there any frozen contaminant 

4 on those panels that he indicated to you? 

5 A No. 

6 Q You said there was a 4 0 -minute 

7 turn before 7770 departed --

8 A Yes. 

9 Q and it departed roughly 7:50 

10 a.m.? 

11 A I couldn't remember when it 

12 departed, but, yeah, probably if that's-- I'm 

13 sure there's ACARS and stuff showing when it 

14 when it departed. 

15 Q There is. So if roughly 7:50, a 

16 40-minute turn, then you would have landed in 

17 Salt Lake roughly 7:10 in the morning? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q On your roll and climb out of Salt 

20 Lake City did you notice any degraded 

21 performance ln the aircraft? 

22 A No. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
342 

1 Q What would you have been 

2 monitoring during takeoff? 

3 A For like a degraded airspeed or, 

4 you know, just for a stall and making sure 

5 it's climbing and the airspeed parameters are 

6 normal. 

7 Q Does the aircraft have computer 

8 and electronic systems to alert you if the 

9 aircraft is suffering from any sort of 

10 degraded performance? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q If you're not rolling out at the 

13 anticipated speed, is there an indicator? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q If your climb is not as 

16 anticipated, does that also come with an 

17 with an indicator for you? 

18 A Well, not a direct one saying 

19 you're not climbing what you should be 

20 climbing. But, yeah, you can see it on the 

21 screen if you're not climbing what a normal 

22 climb would be. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WINW.nealrgross.com 
343 

1 Q One of the two of the pilots 

2 keeping track of your rate of accent coming 

3 out? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Your pitch? Are you keeping track 

6 of the pitch of the aircraft? 

7 A Pitch and climb rate, feet per 

8 minute. 

9 Q The airplane rolls one way or the 

10 other unexpectedly would you detect that on 

11 the 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q -- instruments? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q So the instruments didn 1 t tell you 

16 that there was any degraded performance. 

17 Could you feel it as a pilot if the airplane 

18 wasn 1 t 

19 A Yes. 

20 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

21 Honor. This is outside the scope of my cross. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: That 1 s true. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
344 

1 Sustained. 

2 MR. EMERSON: I'm just trying to 

3 get to 4:30. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's 4:31. 

5 MR. EMERSON: Okay. No further 

6 questions. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not going to 

8 box either one of you and the recorder. 

9 Sir, I'm going to instruct you. 

10 You're not to discuss your testimony with 

11 anybody prior to the conclusion of this 

12 hearing. If there's need to recall this 

13 witness, will you let me know? And we'll 

14 accommodate his schedule. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I have 

16 three questions on redirect -- recross. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: The problem I've 

18 got is it's 4:31 going on 4:32. 

19 MR. SPITZER: I can 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: How quick are --

21 how quick are your questions? 

22 MR. SPITZER: I can do it in under 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
345 

1 two minutes, probably less than two minutes. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, if you go 

3 more than two minutes, I'm going to cut you 

4 off. 

5 MR. SPITZER: Okay, your Honor. 

6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. SPITZER: 

8 Q Mr. Burr, you testified just right 

9 now that you observed this picture and it was 

10 such a zoomed-in picture you couldn't tell 

11 which part of the wing it was. Correct? 

12 A This picture? No, I don't 

13 didn't see this picture on the cell phone. 

14 Q You observed you observed a 

15 picture that was so zoomed in you couldn't 

16 tell which part of the wing it was. Correct? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q And you looked at this picture on 

19 Inspector Perkins' iPhone. Correct? 

20 A I believe what was an iPhone. 

21 Q When you looked at the picture, 

22 was it possible that it had been zoomed in 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
346 

1 with the -- the blowup feature on the iPhone? 

2 A I don't think so because I 

3 remember holding it and trying to scroll back 

4 and forth like that to see more of the wing. 

5 Q Did you zoom all the way out on 

6 this picture? 

7 A I couldn't get the picture to move 

8 at all. I mean, it looked to me like it was 

9 all the way zoomed out, and that's the reason 

10 I had him show me on the wing where it was on 

11 the wing he took a picture from. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Thank you. 

13 Your Honor, no further questions. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again, I'm going 

15 to assume for argument's sake that this 

16 witness may be subject to recall. 

17 So I'm going to instruct you not 

18 to discuss your testimony with anybody prior 

19 to the conclusion of the hearing. You're 

20 excused today. You can' t remain in the 

21 courtroom if we're going to do anything. 

22 That way, Counsel, if the two of 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
347 

1 you reflect and either one of you needs to 

2 recall this witness, we'll do it that way. 

3 Sorry for the constraints of time, but that's 

4 just the way things work. 

5 We will go off the record. We 

6 will reconvene at 0900 tomorrow. And, again, 

7 if either of you -- sir, you can step down. 

8 Mr. Spitzer, Mr. Emerson, if 

9 either of you have constraints with any of 

10 your witnesses, talk with each other. 

11 Whatever schedule you want to work out with 

12 your witnesses, the Court will take people out 

13 of sequence, out of order. I don' t care. 

14 That's one of the advantages of being a 

15 judge-only trial. 

16 Diane, we'll go off the record. 

17 (Whereupon, the proceedings 

18 adjourned at 4.34 p.m.) 

19 

20 

21 

22 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com 
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A 

A-A-R-0-N 22:13 

A-C-A-R-S 132:15 

A&P 181:4 

a.m I: I 0 4:2 58:2 

82: I 124:8 126:20 

161:11 250:20,21 

341:10 

A0013:9 43:1 

A023 3:11 45:17 

Aaron 3:3 17:3 

20:3,20 22:3,12 

23:6 68:20 120:11 

199:22 237:13 

338:5 

abbreviate 255:9 

abbreviation 46:11 

ability 142:7 

144:10 211:19,21 

215:15 246:1 

ab1e7:1715:16 

32:17 39:14,22 

41 :4 57:13 58:8 

71:9 85:6 86:18 

87:1 106:8 108:21 

110:1 161:15 

219: I 278:9 334:3 

abnormal 130:21 

277:14 

absolute 171:5 

absolutely 42:5 

94:21 163:18 

239:2 

academy 26:6 71:3 

ACAR49:1 57:12 

129:14 277:20 

278:17 290:20 

A CARS 3:19 48:20 

118:18122:11,17 

124:20 126:2 

127:5 128:1,18 

129:22 130:8, I 0 

132:13 133:17 

134:2,9,14166:22 

261:20 266:19,21 

271:1,3 278:8 

279:8 280:6 

286:19 287:9,11 add 184:6 216:17 

287:20 291:1 addition 13 7:4 aerospace 183:2 

341:13 additional 15: 12 258:8 

ACAS25:2 60:12 84:7 230:7 Affairs 2:16 

accent 343:2 245:9 291:3 affect I 8:20 207:2 

accept 232:13,17 address 13: 1 5,22 211:10,17 

acceptable 174:11 16:4 affirmative 240:22 

accepted 199:17 addresses 7:1 14:5 241:2,17 243:3,16 

234:13 236:7 adjoining 146:9 243:21 

access 111 :20 adjourned 347:18 Africa 24:20 25:5 

112:12 335:3 ADMINISTRAT ... aft95:9 210:22 

accessible 7:5 2:8 212:14,22 215:10 

accident 182:21 administrative 283:8 

183:19 216:6,9,11 1:22 152:12 afternoon 13:4 

217:5,22 Administrator 4:9 180:8 273:13 

accidents 19:1 8:20 15:13 21:21 297:8 318:1 

215:19,21218:14 22:3 62:10 63:10 agencies 183:15 

acclimated 191: 16 68:19 179:13 agency 3:8 7:6 9:10 

accommodate 201:17,20 224:3 12:22 44:11,13,14 

344:14 239:3, I 0 241:20 47:1,3,4 48:4,6,7 

accomplish 301:4 244:9 295:14 49:15,15,17,18 

accomplished Administrator's 50: 18,20,21 52:14 

65:22 20:11 43:18 45:13 53:10 63:16,17 

accumulate 298:8 46:21 47:8 48:2 64:5,6 178:3 

accumulated 303:8 48:11 49:12,22 225:3 309:15 

accurate 5 I: 17 50:16 51:5 52:2 Agency's 229:22 

53:1 74:9,10 52:10 53:8 54:17 ago 21:5 26:2 71:8 

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137:2 154:16 244:15 315:4 252:2 

163:2 171:1 287:6 admitted 44:1 agree 84:10,16 

achieve 269:15 234:15 87:17 88:20 

acoustic 256:4 admonish 69:8 100:12106:17 

acronym 132:11,12 295:19 108:15 124:11 

acronyms 13: I admonished I 0:9 308:14 

46:11 admonishment agreed 101:22 

act 66: I 246:22 124:18 125:4 

action 13: II admonition 165:11 ahead 84:15 107:16 

actions 151:16 296:9 109:2 129:5 

152:2 279:9 advantages 347:14 136:17146:10 

active 38:4 141:5 advisor 180:11,11 147:18 153:10 

147:3 aerodynamic 3 3: I 5 195:7 236:4 

activities 72:20 186:15187:7,10 243:14 248:18 

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activity 72:22 aerodynamicist 301:17 334:21 

321:6 187:17 ahold 15:22 39:7 

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172:14,19183:14 

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208:18,18 211:15 

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18:4 19:4,9,13 

20:3,9, 15,19 24:4 

25:14,20 28:5,14 

28:20,22 29:3,7 

29:11,18,18 30:10 

30:20 31:8 32:11 

33:8 34:20 35:1 

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37:12 38:1,14 

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49:2,8 51:9,16 

52:21,22 53:16,19 

53:22 54:2,5 

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57:6 58:19 59:3,9 

59:12,18 60:2 

61:15,18,22 62:13 

63:7 64:14 66:2 

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111:6,7,11112:14 

113:5,7,17114:11 

115:14,19 116:9 

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215:15,20 216:12 

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309:22 311:1 124:21 125:8 Alan 247:22 

312:9,13,17,18 126:1,7,15129:15 alert 142:18 217:18 

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aircraft's 18:6,20 150:9,10,17,18 175:14176:20 

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214:21241:7 188:13 208:20 244:10 

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326:17 330:20 228:11 245:14 226:4 

aircrafts 28: 12 271:15 303:21 ambient223: 10 

33:22 304:4 327:11 238:20 304:14,16 

airflow208:18 338:20 339:3 amend 74:17 

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airfoil 185:22 airplane's 98:8 ammunition 

187:6 188:16 airplanes 27:20 205:12 

208:19 209:15 66:13 73:8 148:2 amount 18:18 

215:11 238:19 148:2,20 162:14 19:22 20:22 171:5 

airfoils 191:6 301:5 321:6 175:7 200:10 

airframe 180:20 airport3:13,15 9:6 201:5223:11 

airline 23:22 24:2,7 17:8,919:19 27:3 analysis 65:1 

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220:21 221:2,2 

222:4 224:6 

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227:13 228:3,4 

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APPEARANCES 

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322:19,19 

approved 172:16 

approximate 32:18 

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80:3 81:8,14 72:12 265:4 336:21 

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159:13,15 170:12 185:13 186:16 authority 218: I 

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159:8 305:14,17 195:20 198:8 availability 72:14 

argue 152:12 209:6 210:3 available 15:17 

argument 243: II 212:11 213:14 38:11,21 39:21 

243:13 215:22 216:14 74:9 78:7 86:2,4 

argument's 346:15 219:5 228:17,21 114:16173:22 

argumentative assume 35:16 223:11230:8 

153:7 243:10 177:12 229:15 336:2 

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armpits 102:21 assumes 204:2 aviation 2:8 17:3 

Army 183:15 assuming230:13 18:16 23:13 66:5 

255:12 231:5 180:20 183:18 

arrested 334:20 assumption 170:3 186:13194:20 

arrival75:12 216:18 196:16 200:13 

319:18,21 ATC 142:12,22 201:8 202:4,12 

arrive27:7 261:16 143:3 203:17 207:2 

arrived 17:9 27:9 ATIS74:13,15,17 211:4212:10 

29:4,7 59:12,13 atmosphere 246:16 213:1,16 253:6 

59:15 60:7 81:22 atmospheric 255:7 258:22 

82:3,9 119:16 185:10 190:12,14 aviation's 20:17 

279:5 285:11 192:6 196:3 198:8 avoid 147:16 295:4 

319:11 246:7,11 252:9 309:5 

arriving 27:17 317:3 aware 105:5,7,9,15 

290:12 ATP259:2 299:22 105:16 219:7,12 

arrow 62:2 265:20 ATR-72 183:20 280:22 

asked 68:4,7 83:21 attached 46:3 awareness 147:7 

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170:6 171:9 177:2 154:8,12 B 139:21 

187:2 188:3 202:6 attend 299:3 B-0-N-D 179:21 

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340:10 attention 26:21 back6:20 29:1,14 

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200:21 203:21 attorney I 0:12 71:6,9,20 98:17 

212:18 213:10 attorneys 9:21 105:6,16117:19 

222:16 329:3 10:13 11:3 13:20 119:3,12 124:7 

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balance 284:22 

bald 303:5 

ballpark318:12 

bar 11:17102:7 

barred 179:2 

base 228:12,14 

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205:8 229:14,15 

232:7,10 238:15 

274:2,4,6,7,8 

275:5, II, 13, 14,14 
275:21 276:3,7 

baseline 188:15 

189:1,4 

basement 12:3 

69:12 

basic 239:1 

basically 303: 19 

basing 64: 1 7 

bathed 176:9 

batteries 5:6,7 

beacon 30: 13 

beacon's 128:10 

beam 111:7 112:14 

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believes 306:1 body323:17324:3 281:9,11288:21 

belly 102: I 0 324:13,14,18 289:2,5,7, 11,18 

Ben 338:5 325:17 335:2 290:1,3 291:8,15 

bench I 02:4,6,8 Boeing 19:7 brakes60:6118:16 

140:7 164:20 bombardier 186:21 119:2,15,17 

benefit 208:22 187:2 207:1,15 125:16127:20 

benign 18:17 208:14,16 215:20 168:15,20 169:1 

Benjamin 155:11 218:3 169:11,14,16,19 

best 39:15 Bombardier's branch 181:19 

better 176:10,12 187:17 182:4 183:9 

248:14 323:21 Bond 3:4 20:17 Brasilia 257:3 

324:1 179:13,21 180:3,8 274:15 

beyond 136:11 189:9 190:5 Bravo 66:8 312:14 

137:10152:1,7,13 195:12 196:13 break5:1,9,10,12 

big 109:2 119:22 197:5 199:7,21 5:14 68:22 69:5 

305:17 200:8,22 202:9 69:11,22 109:21 

bigger76:15 92:18 203:14 206:22 134:5 165:16 

98:4,6, 9, I 0 211:3 210:21212:20 204:21 205:22 

biggest 8:7 215:17 218:18 206:3,10 235:21 

binder 10:17,19 219:7 220:4 237:1 246:21 

263:11 221:12222:10 247:9 281:3 

bird 303:5 224:8 226:11 bridge231:14 

birth 7:1 228:4 238:10 brief12: 13 40:2 

bit19:1121:8 240:11 241:4 123:1,5 132:20 

70:21,22 78:17 Bond's223:1 224:4 briefcase76:17 

99:15 170:10 book109:11116:1 bright322:1 323:1 

318:11322:13 116:3121:10 323:3 

335:4 174:20 270:16 brilliant 292:5 

black 78:19 79:15 304:20 308:18 bring 188:12 

80:1181:9107:14 309:11,11 244:11 267:8 

107:15,17 108:21 bore 7:19 22:5 328:17 

108:22 322:5 borne 18:22 broken 203:9 

blamed 334:18 boss 150:1,19 bucks 16:12 

blank233:5 bottom 64:3,3 budget 5:20 

Blauer 155:11 81:11 102:12,15 buildingll:6,18 

338:5 110:16 115:20117:9,15 

block 59:7 box 5:6 344:8 170:6,21 

blocks 22: I 9 boxes 81:12 built 188:7 

blown 106: 15 brake 59:16 60:5 bulk4:13 7:21 

blowup 108:8,17 119:7,13124:10 230:8 

··~ 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 351 

bunch 119:22 

241:13 279:9 

burden 238:7 

239:3,9,11241:1 

241:16,20 243:22 

244:12 

Burr3:6 158:5 

296:22,22 297:3,8 

318:1323:17 

324:10 326:6 

329:19 334:8,22 

337:16 345:8 

Burr's 159:19 

business 7:9 13:16 

13:22 14:4,5 84:2 

84:4 

busy 15:21 

button I 02:10 

buy 5:6 

--·· -----

c 

c 1:21 2:15 4:1 

76:7,10,18 

C-A-P-T 255:9,10 

C-P-T 255:9 

cabin 283:6 

cafeteria 11:5 

call21:22 38:19 

39:5,14 69:1 

110:17139:10 

141:21 142:2 

143:3,13,20 144:1 

144:11 145:2,14 

178:3 179:10 

187:20 231:16 

244:13 246:18 

254:15 265:8 

281:1 303:9 304:1 

310:13 

called 10:2 15:2,14 

23:7 24:18 25:2 

48:18 74:2 97:19 

138:20 142:18 

144:19 145:4 

161:5 180:4 

182:11,14 217:7 

238:10 248:4 
255:22 258:21 

297:4 

calling 246:20 

calls 22:3 37:20 

65:20 136:10,10 

151:21 179:13 

254:18 

camber209:16 

cambered 175:21 

camera 77:20,22 

78:3,7,12,14 84:9 

100:17 101:1 

102:16,18108:10 

108:14133:14 

Canada 186:11,12 

187: I 

Canada's 187:4 

cancelled !81: 15 

capabilities 136: II 

183:1,4 210:1 

capability 209:17 

210:2 215:!4 

captain 25:2 30:19 

119:13 126:15 

127:19130:6 

155:3 156:5,13,16 

157:2,6,14158:1 

158:11 169:10,13 

169:16 254:19,20 

256:13,14,16,21 

257:9 273:13 

274:14 295:18 

312:20 

capture55:13 78:4 

84:22 95:20 103:7 

captured 86: I I 

88:14 

capturing I 00:5 

104:2 

car 17:22 18:7 

27:2129:9,12,15 

29:21 30: I ,5,5 

34:18 36:1,7 

37: I 4,22 38:3 

57:17 58:14 78:1 

78:10 110:4 112:6 

125:7 133:16 

135:6,16 146:11 cast 115:19 changing 120:1 

146:18 147:3,8,22 catch 234:5 123:13 

149:19150:10,18 canght 247: I Chapter 46: I 0, II 

150:21 268:14,17 canse 19:12 208:4 66:21 

care6:5,9,10 cansed 215:19 characteristics 

236:15 296:3 218:4 34:12 

316:16 337:8 caution 294:2 charge40:1 245:22 

347:13 cautious 293:22 chart 61:2 308:16 

career 145:8 ce117:2 39:6 103:3 chase 38:7 

185:15 253:14 103:6 144:15 cheat214:12 

careless 38:6 339:14 340:1 check30:3 31:15 

201:18 202:1 345:13 220:11233:3 

242:7 center 3:17 47:17 261:13 262:8 

cargo 30: IS 119:6 73:22 76:19 78:17 284:1,9,19,20 

124:9 128:9 79:10 88:15 285: I 286:5 287:7 

271:12278:1 116:14184:19 287:18 303:7 

carrier 3:9 42:18 191:15 304:2 326:13,17 

43:6 46:1 63:22 central202:2 327:5,16,17,18 

65:10 81:8 163:6 certain 49:7 56:7 329:9 

233: I 5 72:1993:9,12 checked 68:15,16 

carrier's 242:5 certainly 23:5 71:6 284:13 

carriers 20: l 100:3 141:13 checking 329:22 

carries 39:5 144:13 200:18 checks 245:9 

carry 5:6 226:9 231:15 287:19 

cartl67:11 243:21 chest 102:19 

case 4:3,17 6:2 8:22 certificate3:917:5 Chicago 275:11,12 

14:9 17:1 19:16 25:10,12 42:18 275:19 

20:12,!2 21:5,15 180:22 233:15 chief7:1l 13:9 

32:5 39:19 40:6 259:2,7 300:1,3 20:17,18160:21 

40:11 47:16 50:6 certificates 25:8 180:10 181:19 

!04:8 I 08:7 certification 187:17 231:19 

134:11150:7 184:15 235:19 294:5 

152:2 176:4 certified 74:2 234:2 children 317: I 

187:22 189:18 CF 225:15 China216:7,9 

195:13,21 196:15 CFR66:8 225:13 chose 187:6 

197:7 202:11 225:15,17 226:6 circle6l:21 1!0:8 

212:3 215:14 chair 246:7 112:2,1!,21116:9 

218:13 219:3 chance 120:15 circled 117: I 

221:17 224:10 185:15 188:6 circles78:I9 79:15 

230:I3,14,I7 205:22 218:19 80:11 81:12 

231:19235:19 221:13 circular 76:8,14 

236: I 239:4 243:2 change 74: 16 136: I circumstance 

255:18 183:6 208:5 222:13 

cases4:14 12:21 changed 109:14 circumstances 41:9 

14:3,8 74:4 186:6 132:1135:14,17 City 1:15 3:13,15 

205:13 213:13 183:8 212:6 17:4,8,1419:18 

217:22 227:18 26:6 27:3 35:4 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 352 

47:19 60:19 66:2 

113:13 115:1,9 

143:5,9 145:12 

249: I 5,20 259:16 

269: II 274:2,5,9 

274:19 275:5,6, I 0 

275:17,22 276:3,7 

282:14 302:13 

318:5,9,19 319:1 

332:14 341:20 

Civill86: 12 

CJ20025:3 

CL6525:13 

clarification 55:5 

clarifies 132:6 

326:2 

clarify 236:6 

clarifying 94: 19 

clean302:3 315:13 

315:14,20 

clear 8:16 17:16,20 

27:14 31:17 58:2! 

73:5 78:16 81:15 

97:9 129:9 147:6 

170:6 174:11 

217:11226:3 

227:!0 259:21,21 

272: !8 317:6,6 

321:20 

clearance 125:17 

125:18 

clearances 80:20 

clearly 158:10 

173:18189:15 

clerkl6:11247:5 

Climatic 3: !7 

47:17 73:22 

climb 153:15 

34!: 19 342: I 5,22 

343:7 

climbing 342:5,19 

342:20,21 

clock5:2 69:13 

287:7,18,20 288:4 

334:14 

clock's 287:8 

close 30:17 54:21 
57: 18 72:5 92: 17 

111:19167:16 

182:11271:12 

307:12 340:7 

closed 6:18,19 

30:13 119:2,6 

128:9 262:9,14,16 

278:1279:17,21 

332:20 

closeout 184:21 

Closer 335:8 

closes 124:9 

closeup 91: 19 

92:14 98:14 

clouds 317:7 

clue 16:18 

CJVIO 17:5 

coarse 211:16 

cockpit 156: 15,21 

157:21260:17 

261:1,5,11 269:18 

283:9 285:16,18 

285:22 

codes 183:1 

coffee 11 :9 12:7 

16:13 69:12 

cold 17:16 27:14 

73:5 78:6 149:14 

149:14 188:12 

252:2 259:21 

260:1 303:9,11,12 

303:15 

cold-soaked 217: I 0 

colder 303:7 

colleagues 192: I 0 

collect 185:22 

205:22 

collection 46:3,13 

collectively 6:16 

71 :I 

College 181:2 

298:17 299:5 

collision 268:4 

color 107:9 109:22 

colors 107:11 

109:14 

combined 302:22 

combustion 181: 14 120: I 266:20 346:19 

come8:915:16 completion 149: 18 conclusions 65:3 

22:22 28:5 48:15 185:6 conclusive 23 8:21 

64:12 65:2 82:2 complexity 146:20 conclusory 241: 14 

98:17125:8 147:21 concourse 267:12 

148:11 163:16 compliance 65:10 267:13,19,22 

168:14,18 196:15 65:18173:9,16 309:20 310: I ,4 

197:22 200:1 complied 65:3 314:12 

201:4 202:11,20 164:2 condition 145:18 

206:1327:13 complies 61:20 292:7 301:6,7 

342:16 62:1,5 110:7 316:8 

comes 84:7 209:5,9 113:1264:1,19 conditions 27:12 

294:19 265:17 266: I 73:3 114:13 185:9 

coming 147:1 comply 163:6,9 185:10,13 186:1,2 

252:7 267:19 174:14 189:15,19 191:16 

298:9,12 322:6 component 197:20 192:12,17,19,21 

343:2 comprise 95:9 193:9196:3 197:8 

command 259:15 compromised 198:1,8199:3 

commenced 36:8 64:13,16 196:16 221:15 251 :22 

comment 212:3 203:17 252:3,10,12,21 

commercial257: 17 computation 232:4 259:20 292:2 

committee 192: I computational 317:4 321:17 

common 33:17 182:16 conducive 73:4 

126:13 140:9 computer 82:21 197:9 198:2 

168:21 83:2,5, 12, 15,16 252:12,21 

communicate 84:18 85:10,14 conduct 10:15 

281:8 183: I 269:20 22:19 26:17 43:5 

communicating 342:7 67:15 85:9 192:7 

140:18 concern 8:7 33:19 conducted 17: I 0 

communication 33:22 34:8, I 0 40:13 67:21 68:5 

49:2,5 132:19 153:12155:18 188:8 192:9 

139:1 142:22 concerned 131:21 220:10 221:9 

144:4,8 146:14 151:18 241:14 274:18 

147:22 concerning 40: II 278:15 282:12 

Community 181:1 75:9 292:12,15,16 

company 14:22 concerns 20: 19 330:14 332:16 

24: 18 25:2 39:14 41:6 conducting 173: I 

160:15 188:2 concluded 235:19 285:15 286:5 

293:21 295:3 concludes 229:9 conductive 23 8: 18 

316:13 conclusion 64:12 confidential8:7 

Complaint 20 I :21 65:6,9 69:9 confidentiality 

complete 26:16 119:12 177:19 13:7 

27:4 32:12 87:5 196:15,19,21 configuration 

169:12 197:2 198:1,5 208:9 210:16 

completed 26: 18 200:1,5,6 201:5 212:7 

71:4,14,22 169:6 202:11,20 223:12 configurations 

completely 119:19 295:20 344:11 61:5 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 353 

configured 88:13 

confirm 89:11 

158:22 

confirmed 237:15 

confused 95:16 

confusion 120:1 

congested 320:21 

congestion 314: 19 

conjunction 73:13 

conscience 153:1 

consequence 98:13 

conservative 187:8 

eonsider 37:22 

293:17 

consideration 

195:6 

eonsidered 9:13 

38:2 187:11 : 

193:22 209:3 ;: 

consist 184:5 " A 

s 

consistent 193:11 

205:12 233:6,22 l 

j 234:10 ~ constraints 5 :22 ] 

347:3,9 i 

consult 119:21 

120:21 

consultant 14: 17 

consulting 9:14 

contact37:18 

40:10 142:7 

145:15 185:8 

contacted 187:2 

contacting 38:4 

contained 56:2 

65:8172:14 

containing 62: II 

contaminant 

301:21 302:7,9 

308:13 328:11 

341:3 

contaminants 

301:9 304:10 

315:16,21316:2 

339:1,17 

contaminate 150:9 

150:22 151:4 
contamination 

31:5,7,16,20 34:8 

35:18 36:3 64:19 

65:20 66:14 67:22 

163:12 171:19 

174:8 191:18 

208:3,4 211:7,9 

211:14 212:9 

223:9 302:2 

contemporaneous 

131:7 

CONTENTS3:1 

continuation 

229:21 

continue 118:19 

127:16 239:2 

continued 39:20 

195:10 266:8 

312:14 

continuing 41 :20 

\84:17 311:18 

312:2,3 

contrary 7:15 

control 37:17 78:18 

79:12 80:20 

144:20 146:15 

167:18 265:8 

267:7 310:13 

controlled 169:2 

controlling 167:18 

convenience 44:17 

conveniently 12:20 

conversation 40:2 

337:22 338:3 

340:9 

cooling 198:9 199:4 

216:15 

copies 44:22 

134:10 \40:4 

232:1 

copy45:4 50:4 63:3 

63:14,19 83:8 

108:9120:10 

234:2 236:19,20 

corner 96:5 

corporate25:3 

correct 4: 19 46: 15 

50:13 53:20 54:5 289:12,21 290:4,9 275:16 

65:14 74:6,7 80:7 290:10,15 291:2 couple 11:3 12:10 

81:2,4 82:21,22 291:11,12,21,22 21:5 69:16 81:16 

85:4 93:4 95:18 294:12 295:9 course 16:16 26:15 

95:22 96:13 97:15 297:20 301: I 0 26:15 61:18 84:2 

97:16,2199:1 302:3 313:11 84:4 I 06:21 

100:19 102:13,22 315:7,8,22 321:11 218:20 266:5 

103:1 110:21,22 321:12,14 323:2 274:12318:3 

111:8,9113:5,10 326:8,9,11 327:18 courses 26:4 

115:15,16116:15 330:17 332:6,17 court 1:12 7:16 

116:16117:5 332:18,20,21 10:2112:15,17 

120:16 121 :II 333:2,6,7,14,17 16:11 32:18 43:21 

122:14,15 123:3 333:18,21 334:4 44:18,21 45:1,4 

125:5128:5,6,19 345:11,16,19 48:22 59:11 62:15 

129:18130:12 correction 172:7,9 63:13 78:15 104:7 

134:11147:13 correctly 16:8 104:22 108:9 

154:2,3 155:1 235:9 279:14 122:12 166:17 

157:15 163:21 correlate I 04:19 172:9178:8,17,18 

170:2 171:22 corresponding 179:9 202:17 

175:2,21 176:6 96:19 203:4,13 210:5 

177:13,15 191:8 Councill86:11 216:5 231:4 

210:11 231:2 187:4 236:19 237:6 

232:5 234:18 counsel2:6 4:6 238:2,13 252:7 

239:8 240:16 7:119:21,22 254:12 312:2 

250:18,22 251:3 12:11,1916:9 347:12 

260:19,22 262:3 22:15 62:21 80:13 Court's 15:22 

262:21 263:6,8 81:18 83:9 84:14 44:10108:2 

266:6,10,12 268:6 94:18103:20 121:14 140:3 

268:9 271:10,13 108:1 114:5 205:10 208:22 

273:4,17,18 119:22 121:9,10 236:15 255:7 

274:14 275:7 121:20 122:4,7 270:19 

276:1,10,11,14,17 152:4 164:18 courthouse 5:16 

276:18,22 277:8 177:1179:22 courtroom 5: 18,22 

277:12 278:2,17 190:21 201:19 9:9,1614:16 

279:10,11,15,16 218:9 225:3 226:5 93:22 101:10 

279:18,19,22 231:6 232:2 150:3 165:2 

280:4,5,9,10,16 235: I 0 248:2 177:20178:11,14 

280:18,19,19 254:11,17273:14 178:16 179:2 

281:4,5,6,1 0,13 290:18 297:2 196:10231:8 

281:14,17,18 301:19 309:8 256:5 296:1,10,12 

282:14,15,18,19 311:17 317:18 336:18 338:8 

283: 1,2,5, 9, I 0,15 318:2 323:20 346:21 

283:16,19,20 324:9 325:12,22 courtrooms 5: 17 

285:2,6,8 286:11 334:21 346:22 cover 108:18 

286:12 287:1,8,15 Counselor 62:8 307:19 

287:16,17 288:3 counting 89:8 covers 46: I 0 

288:11,19 289:3,9 country 5:18 10:5 Crane 150:2,3,6 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 354 

151:8,15 

Crane's 151:2 

crash 183 :21 

crashed217:2,17 

create 19:8 122:13 

302:2,4 

credentials 195: I 

238:11 

credible 158:2 

159:20 i 

crew 36:2,8 40:22 1 

41:3,15 58:14 w 

67:12105:5,15 )I 

' 119:12126:14,19 l 

139:9 142:2,4,5,8 I 

142:9 143:1 144:8 l 

155:1,7 160:7 , 

164:2,4 167:10 % 

168:22169:19 

173:7,13 219:14 

219:15 220:10 

245:6 260: I 0 

crew's 38:9 

crews 49:5 82:6 

143:15 

critical 31: 14 

CRJ18:1919:1,10 

21:1 25:14,20 

28:5 30:18 31:12 

33:6,17,21 56:1,5 

90:21 186:21 

187:5,20,21 188:5 

207:1,14,15 

208:15,16 215:20 

297:18 298:4 

325:18 333:13 

CRJ200 18:1 24:14 

188:8 209:2 

215:22 217:5 

256:17 306:15 

CRJ900 24:20 

cross 3:2 152:4 

!53 :9 229:12 

231:13 247:2 

319:14 343:21 

cross-examination 

23:4 70:7 83:21 
166:7 169:4,21 

235:3 241:15 

273:11317:21 

crystal 185: 12 

cso 10:5 

CSOs 5:18 

cue 12:19 

cum 299:11 

cup 16:12 

curiosity 274:17 

curious245:15 

current 9:19 23: II 

180:9 249:3 

currently 184:1 

196:14297:16 

299:22 308:21 

customary 167:21 

cut 146:18 345:3 

D 

04:1 44:2 

D-A-V-1-D 248:1 

D-E-N-N-1-S 

296:22 

D,C 1:2 247:6 

D085 3:10 43:10 

damage 185:13 

Dan 160:11,15 

Daniel40: 16 

dark 114:20 292:11 

292:16 322:5 

data3:17 47:14,17 

57:1 59:6,11,14 

60:3,6 73:13,22 

74:9 75:4,8 83:1 

85:19,20 124:7,20 

124:22 128:2 

185:14197:18,20 

211:13234:3 

261 :20 266:19,21 

278:8,17 280:6 

284:22 286:19 

287:11 288:7 

289: I 0 290:20 

datas 277:20 

date70:13 231:10 

dates 7:1 

Dave244:16 78:22 79:19 80:3 138:12 

David 3:5 247:22 137:20138:9,9,16 decision 101:7 

248:3 139:6,10 140:9,11 deck 143:16 

day 17:16,18 27:1 140:13,21 141:5 decrement 208:6 

28:18 41:4,11 141:14,21 142:5 211:18 

75:10 83:20 86:20 143:18,20 144:9 deduction 82:9 

147:6 149:14 150:7 157:12 deep 153:12,12 

153:13 154:22 162:18 164:2 246:14 

155:20 168:4 171:12,16,18 defense 240:22 

268:7 292:4 172:11 173:10,16 241:2,17 243:16 

334:16 339:8 173:19,22174:3 243:21 244:4 

daylight292:19 186:14 187:19 defenses 243:3 

293:2 323:1,4 191:11,13,16 defer21:14 164:14 

days 71 :8, 12 72: 1 192:1,4 193:5,6 definitions 46:10 

149:17 218:20 2 I 9:2,6 degradation 

daytime292:8,10 220:16 228:18 269:10 270:4 

292:14,21 322:1 244:20,22 245:2,3 degraded 341:20 

DC 107:5 247:5 245:7,16 249:18 342:3,10 343:16 

de-icc 20:4 26:17 250:3,9, 14, 15,16 degree 180:22 

27:2,19,20 28:15 251 :2,4,8, 16 181:7 190:9 

34:20,21 35:1,4 252:6 253:11 208:17 209:6 

35:13,16,17,20 260:3 295:4,8 258:1 299:7 

36:1137:1641:13 300:8,15,18 301:3 deja21:4 

59:19,21 65:7,19 316:7 delay 84:5 123:1,5 

65:2166:11,17,20 deal7:7 16:19 delayed245:16 

67:7 137:16 223:7 delays 272:16,17 

138:14 141:11 dealing 186:18 deliberative 151:21 

151:8 163:10 241:6 152:6 

172:14,15,17,19 death 22:5 demonstrate 

240:15 242:4 December 17:2 104:22 237:9 

De-ice/Anti-ice 26:21,22 27:7,8 244:14 

66:22 27:12 43:12 46:18 Dennis 3:6 158:5 

de-iced 20:10 73:8 51:11,19 53:3 159:19 296:21 

77:1,2 137:13 62:13 65:22 66:3 297:3 

138:12 139:14 70:12 71:10,11 Denver 275:13,19 

141:10,17163:13 72: 17 73:4 113:13 deny 89:11 242:10 

163:16171:14 115:1,11117:3 depart 18:2 152:21 

240:7 234:3,4 237:10 153:5 224:4 265:3 

de-icing 17:6,12, 13 246:12 249:10 272:19 316:6 

20:8 21:5,13 28:1 250:4,10 251:22 departed 20: 15 

28:2,6 39:22 40:1 259:17 275:21 60:9 110:15 113:7 

40:9 45:21,22 292:3 302:14 118:22 135:22 

46:6,7,14,16 303:12 311:2 137:18 145:20 

59:22 61:6 62:3 318:17 319:5 148:6 154:2 

67:5 71:4,18 330:13 331:17 157:20 224:11 

72:10,18,21 73:1 332:15 226:14 237:17,19 

75:13,17,19,19 decided 39:5 78:8 238:3 240:5,7 

Neal R, Gross and Co,, Inc, 

202-234-4433 

Page 355 

251:13 260:17 i 

266:4,11 269:11 ili 

,, 

286:6 341:7,9,12 ~ B 

341:14 I 

departing 37:12 I 

66:1 143:22 216:9 

238:1 259:16 

273:1 

department 1:1 4:4 

5:21 30:16 145:4 

258:12 

departs 265:2 

departure 19:15 

28:21 118:6 

131:12 197:17 

204:8,11 237:21 

246:17 262:13 

280:11319:19,22 

341:1 

departures 250:17 

250:21 

dependent 212:6 

depending 15:14 

17:18 208:7 

215:12 

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307:15,19 340:19 

340:22 341:4 

panic 334: I 0 

paper 18:14 33:1,1 

33:3 278:3 307:20 

parallel 36:20 

Ill :8,11 146:9 

147:4 

parameters 128: 11 

342:5 

park 173:22 

parked 18:2 29:9 

32: II 86:20 112:6 

116:9117:2,14 

123:10 170:22 

174:22175:7,19 

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293:6 

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167:4 280:3 281:3 

281:9,11 

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41:1747:15 50:11 

56:13 66:18 68:15 

99:12 115:6 

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particular 33:1 8 perform 67: 18 109:3 110:14 

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19:4 89:22 244:15 151:14186:15 197:19 200:1 

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218:13 188:10,17,21 223:4 235:7 236:7 

partnership 186: II 191:19193:1 237:13,20 238:8 

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270:8 279:20 269:11270:1,5 246:4 286:4 

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316:19 319:14 343:16 339:13 340:11 

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263:13 268:7 157:7 158:12,18 permission 41:20 

283:11,18 311:1,3 159:22 160:3 61:10 108:2 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 369 

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114:15 115:13,17 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 370 

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202-234-4433 

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202-234-4433 

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100:16,20 101:2 word 101:5,10 146:12 264:17 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 383 

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84790 2:19 

____ 9 . ~--

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 384 
385 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Skywest Airlines 

Before: DOT/FAA 

Date: 02-10-14 

Place: Salt Lake City, UT 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS ANO TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com