# Capital Reporting Company In Re: Scott Tice 05-16-2013 

# RECEIVED

BEFORE THE 

# 2013 

# HEARING 

# DOCK T

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION

In Re: Docket No.: FAA-2013-0042 SCOTT TICERespondent.

Washington, D.C. Thursday, May 16, 2013

The following pages constitute the proceedings
held in the above-captioned matter before the
HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN, held at Office of Hearings, M-20, U.S. Department of Transportation, 1200 New Jersey Avenue, S.E., Washington, D.C., before Janel B.
Folsom of Capital Reporting Company, beginning at approximately 11:03 a.m.



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APPEARANCES I Accept the Late Answer, and Granting/Denying Other On behalfofthe Agency: 2 Reliefwas filed. After that orderwas issued, on May R. BENNETT SARGENT, IV 3 9, 2013, the parties filed ajoint proposed ER26(t) NewEngland Region 4 scheduling and discovery plan. In addition, on May 9, Oftice ofthe Regional Counsel 5 2013, the FAA filed a Renewed Motion for OrderDeeming 12 NewEngland Executive Park 6 Allegations Admitted and to LimitHearing to the Issue Burlington, Massachusetts 01803 7 ofCivil Penalty, which I'm going to refer to in this 8 telephone conference today as the FAA'srenewed motion. On behalfofthe Respondent: 9 Lastly, prior to convening this morning on May 15, SCOTTTICE, PRO SE 10 2013, Mr. Tice, the proseRespondent, filed a letter II response to the FAA'srenewed motion. Also Present: 12 So we have a couple ofdifferent things to EMILY SINGER HURVITZ 13 talk about today, and I think the best thing to do is ANDY ORR 14 to talk first about the motion and response and also 15 talk about the issue ofvenue, and then we can talk 16 about setting the matter for litigation, whattype of 17 litigation, howmuch time is needed and so forth. 18 Does that work for you, Mr. Sargent? 19 MR. SARGENT: That works great, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: AndMr. Tice, does that also 21 work for you in terms ofthe plan, whatwe're goingto 22 do today?

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PROCEEDINGS 1 MR. TICE: Yes, it does. JUDGE SULLIVAN: We're on the record in the 2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Then let's talk first matter ofScott Tice. This is DocketNumberFAA-2013- 3 about the FAA'srenewed motion and the Respondent's 0042. Today is Wednesday, May 15, 2013 (sic), and the 4 letter response to that motion. And to do that, what parties have convened for a Rule 16 litigation 5 I'm goingto do isjusttell both ofyou that I've read scheduling conference. The attorney for the Federal 6 all ofyour materials. So the question nowis whether Aviation Administration, which I'll hereinafter refer 7 ornot you want to use some ofthe time today to to as the FAA, is R. Bennett Sargent, IV. The 8 actually argue that motion before me, ifyou feel Respondent Scott Tice is present, and he's acting pro 9 comfortable doing that.
se. Also present at the Office ofHearings hearing 10 And so I wantto turn first to you, Mr.

room sitting in as observers only are Emily Singer 

### 11 Sargent, and ask you ifthat's --ifit would be Hurvitz, a law student intern with this office, and 12 acceptable for you to argue that motion today? Andy Orr, also a law student intern. Welcome 13 MR. SARGENT: I'd be happy to do that now if everybody. 14 thatworks for everyone, YourHonor. Asyou can probablyhearfrom my voice, I'm a 15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And Mr. Tice, what little bitunderthe weather. However, my mind remains 16 about you? Do you think you would be prepared to argue sharp, and I hope we can take care ofa variety of 17 that motion today? things this morning. 18 MR. TICE: Yes, I-- to the best ofmy I'mjustgoing to identifY a couple ofthings 19 abilities, yes.
so that we all knowwhere we are. In essence, as you 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Letme stay with you may recall, on May 1, 2013, an OrderAccepting the Pro 21 for aminute, Mr. Tice, andjusttalk to you a little Se Respondent's Response, Finding Good Cause Exists to 22 bit about this motion to make sure you understand what


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it is. Essentially, whatthe FAA has said in its I Ist orderthat was issued by YourHonor, the FAA filed written material is that you have acknowledged and 2 its renewed motion based on an examination ofthe admitted in your written material that the violations 3 accepted answer ofthe Respondent. So in that that they've alleged againstyou actually took place 4 examination, going through each numbered paragraph that and that in essence, the only issue in dispute is what 5 Respondent addressed, it became evident and clearthat fine, ifany, should be charged against you for those 6 there

-- that the Respondent essentially does not violations. 7 dispute any fact that was alleged in the FAA's In yourresponse, what it looked to me was 8 complaint such that there is no dispute that, in fact, that you didn't deny that the violations took place. 9 that all facts which supportthe FAA's allegations and Instead, you raised some defenses about them, 10 the regulations that were cited were essentially agreed and I'm going to kind ofhighlight whatthose are, and II to and do not remain in dispute. So the facts that you can tell me ifI'm-- ifI'veread your materials 12 were alleged in addition to the regulatory violations carefully enough. Ifi understand your response, 13 cited again were admitted to based on our reviewofthe you're arguing the following: 14 Respondent's answerwhich leaves us with the only Numberone, that even ifthe violations took 15 matterremaining in dispute as to the civil penalty place, they're notwm1hy ofprosecution because it 16 and/or the appropriateness thereof didn't result in actual harm. 17 Again, basedon the remainder ofthe They weren't intentional, numbertwo. 18 information contained in Respondent's answer, in Numberthree, that similaroffenses have not 19 addition to essentially the conversations that myself been prosecuted. 20 and Respondent have had throughoutthe matter and my And number four, that the amount offuel was 21 understanding ofthose conversations, it really appears
so minimal that it really didn't constitutethe hazard 22 evident at this point that Respondent's, and in

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that the FAA claims that it did. 1 accordance with Respondent's own wordsjust a few lsthat a fair summary ofyour defenses in 2 minutes ago basedon your sort ofoutline ofhis this motion, Mr. Tice? 3 argument, it really appears at this point as though MR. TICE: Yes, it is, YourHonor. 4 there is no reasonable dispute aboutthe fact that a JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, then whatI'm 5 violation did occur as alleged, andthe regulations going to do, and this is pretty standard in these kinds 6 thatwere cited were, in fact, violated, that the only ofproceedings, is that the prosecuting agent always 7 thing thatwe're leftto discuss, you know, is the goes first, and then the responding party goes second. 8 amount ofthe civil penalty and/or the appropriateness So it'sjustkind ofa generalrule thatwe follow so 9 thereof That seemsto be Respondent's position, and that everybody knows when it's time to talk. 10 ce11ainly he'll have the opportunity to discuss his So Mr. Sargent, why don't youtake five 11 position on that matter. But again, all facts which minutes or less,justwhatevertime you need, to 12 remain in dispute speakonly to that issue based on all highlight points that you think this Court needs to 13 the evidence on the record at this point. knowin support ofyour motion to deem the allegations 14 And so the FAA has movedthat, in fact, that admitted, reserving the civil penalty matter for trial. 15 you issue an orderdeeming all allegations admitted Please go ahead. 16 which would limit any hearing in this matterto the MR. SARGENT: Yes, YourHonor. 17 issue ofthe civil penalty. We believethat obviously JUDGE SULLIVAN: You can go ahead now. 18 would certainly shape the scope ofany discovery and/or MR. SARGENT: Okay. Thanks. Okay. Your 19 evidentiary issues that are remaining, would ce11ainly Honor, so essentially whatI'm

-- I'll attemptto as 20 serve to limit the scope ofthe hearing as well as any briefly as possible outline and summarize the motion 21 resources to be committed to such ahearing. So as a that I filed on May 9th. So in accordance with the May 22 result thereof, theFAAwouldrespectfully request that


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you issue an order deeming the allegations admitted and 1 MR. TICE: That is correct. limiting any hearing in this matter to the issue ofthe 2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And according to the civil penalty. 3 service list I have, and I'm going to go to that, JUDGE SULLJVAN: Thankyou verymuch, 4 that's in Barronett, B-A-R-R-0-N-E-T-T, Wisconsin? counsel. And I may return to you to askyou to respond 5 MR. TICE: Thatis my post office, yes. to somepointsthat Mr. Tice may raise. 6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. What'sthe nearest Mr. Tice, why don't you take five minutes 7 city to which you are located? Where

-- what

-- are now, orless, however much time you would like, to 8 you nearby? identifY the highlights ofyour responsive position? 9 MR. TICE: We're about a two hours' drive MR. TICE: My response is exactly as you 10 from Minneapolis, which is the largest large city. outlined. First, that I made a simple mistake. You 11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. know, these things happen regularly. People mistakenly 12 MR. TICE: Duluth is a similar distance away forget that they have items that are prohibited, and 13



## -- those items are confiscated, and that'sthe end ofthe 14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So eitherMinneapolis matter. Thatwould seemto me to be very appropriate 15 orDuluth would have a lawlibrary. And do you have in this case. 16 accessto the Internet at home? I also feel that since

-- I'm not even clear 17 MR. TICE: Oh, I do, yes. ifthe FAA's actually alleging that I did anything that 18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Even easier. Ifyou endangered anyone. I don't exactly see that 19 go online and do a Google search, you can actually look specifically stated anywhere, but that mightjustbe my 20 up these regulations byjusttyping in their citation lack ofunderstanding oflegalmatters. Butthe amount 21 into the Google search line. Andyou probably didn't offuel that was contained in that canisterthatI had 22 knowthis, butI'm going to tell you now about it.

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used for cooking purposes on mybackpackingtrip was I Those regulations thatyou see cited in the violations very, very small, andI have asked that that canister 2 portion ofyour Complaint are actually citationsto law be weighed so we can determine exactly how small, and I 3 material to giveyou an opportunity to read the law hope that will happen at somepoint in the future. 4 itself. So ifyou look at-- do you have the copy of So I don't feel like I endangered anyone. I 5 the Complaintin front ofyou? made a simple mistake. I don't think it's worthy of 6 MR. TICE: I don't have it in front ofme, prosecution, and I'mjust asking that we
-- you
-- that 7 no, butI do have it at home. the matterbe deemed insignificant and a fine not be 8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, I'm going to levied. 9 justmention this to you so that when you go home, you JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Letme askyou a 10 can actually do this for yourself So ifyou look at couple questions about this before I turn backto Mr. II page 4 ofthe 7-page complaintthat was issued against Tice (sic). The first question is did you by any 12 you, on page 4, paragraph 6, it says whatthe proper chance read the regulations that were in the Complaint 13 shipping name for the fuel that you had packed in your issued againstyou, that being those regulations that 14 bags is called and the hazard class that it's been

are identified by numbers such as 49 C.F.R. 15 assigned as well as the assigned identification number. 172.600(c)(l)? Didyou go to a library, by any chance, 16 And then on paragraph 9, it gives you a legal citation and lookthose regulations up to see whatthey said? 17 that says 49 C.F.R. Section 172.204, subsection (a) or MR. TICE: No, ma'am, I did not do that. I 18 subsection (c)(l). Whenyou do your Google search, if don't actually knowhowto do that. 19 you want to do this, type in those numbers, 49 C.F.R. JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Ifl recall, and I'm 20 Section 172.204(a). AndI can guarantee you going to look at mymaterialsjustto make sure, you 21 that up will pop a lawthat is labeled under that live in the state ofWisconsin. Is that correct? 22 citation: 49 is the name ofthe book chapter orthe


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book, the volume ofthe book; C.F.R. stands for Code of 

### 1 MR. TICE: Well, it seems to me that the Federal Regulations; and Section 

### 172 is the chapter; 

### 2 points ofthese regulations are to keep planes and essentially 

### 204 is the subsection under the chapter and 

### 3 passengers safe. And it seems to me that the amount of
so forth

. 

### .It will bring that right up to your 

### 4 harmful material playsinto that very
-- I mean, that's attention so thatyou don't feel like you don't have 

### 5 ahuge difference. I've noted in whatIput down in enough information. You can access all this 

### 6 writing that this fuel is called isobutane. Butane is information for yourself. 

### 7 the fuel that's in cigarette lighters. Cigarette Let me askyou another question. You had 

### 8 lighters are permitted on planes. So it seems to me saidthat you think that weighing the fuel container 

### 9 that the FAA, you know, realizes that, you know, some would be helpful to show how much fuel was in it. I 

### 10 small amount ofthese harmful materials are
-- can take it you do not have the fuel container anymore; it 

### 11 reasonably safely be brought on planes.
was seized atthe airp011'l 

### 12 So I don't understand exactly-- well, I mean MR. TICE: Yes, it was. That's correct. 

### 13 whatyou're telling me about strict interpretation and JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And based on your 

### 14 the other interpretation makes sense to me on a recollection ofthe fuel container when you last used 

### 15 layman's level. ButI certainly don't have any legal it, do you have any idea ofhow much fuel might have 

### 16 expertise to address that. ButI do understand that if been in it? 

### 17 the law is interpreted precisely to the letter that I MR. TICE: Well, like I said, the best I can 

### 18 imagine I am guilty ofan offense. Well, I'm sure I'm say at this point is nearly empty. I had used it my 

### 19 guilty ofan offense. Itjust seems to me that this entire trip. When you use this

-- these type of 

### 20 whole, you know, thatjustice, what'sjustand fair and canisters, atfirst they put out avery hot, you know, 

### 21 right should come into play. And that's whatI'm flame. And as they get down, the flame gets 

### 22 hoping is that

-- it would seem to me thatjustice



### 15
diminished. And that was to the point where I was sort 

### 1 isn't served or furthered by penalizing me for a simple ofthinking, you know, I really should try to conserve 

### 2 mistake thatreally didn't endanger anyone, and that's this fueljustto make sure I make it to the end ofthe 

### 3 whatI'mjusthoping will be the ruling. trip. And so I was acting that way. I was worried, 

### 4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Letme askyou a you know, a little bit worried about running out. 

### 5 question about similar offenses not being prosecuted. I think it was less than ten percentfull, 

### 6 Can you identify whereyou getthat infonnation? but it seems like it would be a very simple matterto 

### 7 MR. TICE: Oh, well, I've seen it myself. clear thatup so we don't have to be talking about what 

### 8 I've also mistakenly forgot to taken a pocketknife out I think. Itshould be a simple thing to establish this 

### 9 ofmy pocket and had it confiscated, and you know, I

as a fact. 

### 10 realize that that's something that's also prohibited. JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, the question I have to 11 Andyou know, I make no objection to

-- I'm sorry. I askthough is that ifthere was any fuel in it at all, 

### 12 shouldn't have had that in my pocket. Thankyou for then ifthe regulation is strictly applied, it doesn't 

### 13 finding it. You know, please dispose ofit which is matterhowmuch was in there. I'm wondering

-- 

### 14 whatI thoughthad happened in this case. When this MR. TICE: Yes, I-- I'm sorry. 

### 15 whole event unfolded, 1had no ideathat it was going JUDGE SULLIVAN:

-- ifyou understand the 

### 16 to be, it was going to be prosecuted. Itjust seemed difference between strict construction ofa regulation 

### 17 that, you know, the fuel canisterwas taken, and that

versus an interpretive construction, you know, where if 

### 18 was the end ofit. And I've talkedto otherpeople who you had any fuel in it at all, then you're subjectto 

### 19 said oh, yeah, I was out west on ahunting trip, and I the regulation. Howwould itmatter in your opinion 

### 20 actually had live, you know, shotgun shells still in my whetherit was one ounce, two ounces or one-fifth ofan 

### 21 pocket that I completely forgot about and, you know, ounce? 

### 22 they found them and took them and, you know, that's the


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end ofit. I've not known anyone who's made a mistake 

### I that and say I am not the prosecution agent. And so it like this who's been prosecuted. 

### 2 is not for me to make the prosecuting decision. JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, unlike you, I see 3 MR. TICE: Yes. Those comments were comments these kinds ofcases quite often. 

### 4 that I initially made to Mr. Sargent. I believe he is MR. TlCE: I'm sure you
-- 

### 5 the one that decides whetherto prosecute this ornot, JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. So I would agree with 

### 6 and he has told me that he can't really decide that you that sometimesthey comeup to me, and sometimes 

### 7 either, that you know, since it happened, he has to they don't. So there may be someuneven prosecution, 

### 8 prosecute it. It'sjust something that I don't quite but once the case gets before me, that is not an issue 

### 9 understand because, like I said, I mean other offenses that I can address. That wouldbe an issue that's 

### 10 ofthe similar-- that seem similarto me, in mymind, addressed more properly, I think, to the FAAofficials. II I know aren't prosecuted. I'm kind ofconfused as to They are not

-- 

### 12 what makes me-- what-- the mistake I made so much MR. TICE: And I raised those concerns to the 13 different. But-- feds, FAA officials

-- 

### 14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Again, Ijoin you in that JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Excellent. Yes, I 

### 15 concern. I can tell you that there are cases that I would encourageyou to do that. 

### 16 see that are very similarto yours that are prosecuted, Letme askyou about this assertion that you 

### 17 casesthat I see that are far more egregious than yours offeredthe checkedbaggage and thought it had been 

### 18 that are prosecuted, and I'veheard people tell me, taken care of. Were you present when the TSA personnel 

### 19 justlike you have done, thatthey have had friends or in the VermontRegional Airport did the inspection of 

### 20 have heard about people that have had things your bags? 

### 21 confiscated at the airport who neverheard from the FAA MR. TICE: Yes. It's a very small airpmt, 

### 22 and never gotprosecuted. So why that is I'm not quite



### 19

and I mean I didn't actually see them go through the I sure. So I would agree with you that there is some bag, but afterthey wentthrough the bag, the ticket 

### 2 inconsistency in the prosecution ofindividuals who agent called me up to the counter and said that they 3 appear at airpmts and then havethings in theirbags had found this canister, and I said ah, I've not

-- I 

### 4 oron theirperson prosecuted. totally forgot. Youknow, can you dispose ofit, and 5 Is there anything else-- add to yourprimary that's whatI thought had happened and was the end of 

### 6 argument at this point, Mr. Tice? it. 

### 7 MR. TICE: No. I've done the best I can, and JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So the fuel didn't 

### 8 it seems like you've listened to me, and I appreciate get on the

-- it didn't getinto the airplane itself? 

### 9 that. MR. TICE: No, no, no. 

### 10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're very welcome. JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. You had indicated 11 Mr. Sargent, I have a couple questions to ask that it was notwmthy ofprosecution. I can hearyou 

### 12 you, and I'd like youto respond to them. There's been when you say thatyou don't think that this is 

### 13 an assertion at leastby Mr. Tice that there might be a something that should have been pursued. Just so that 

### 14 de minimis exception to this type ofscenario ifthe you know, as I read your written materials, you had 

### 15 amount in the fuel canisteris small enough. Can you made some assertions thatthe Court shouldn't-- not 

### 16 tell me ifsuch a de minimis exception would existfor allowthe prosecution

-- I'mgoingto look at

-- 

### 17 this type ofhazardous materia]? MR. TICE: Well, I'm sorry. I'm not sure 

### 18 MR. SARGENT: Sure. YourHonor, I would turn that that's something

-- I don't knowifthat's 

### 19 your
-- in fact, there is no de minimis exception for somethingthat you can decide or not. Thatpart is 

### 20 this type ofmaterial. This material is strictly justmy opinion. 

### 21 forbidden for transportation aboard passenger-carrying JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. I wouldjustclarity 

### 22 aircraft, and I think that may
-- there may be

-- that


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may be the distinction and may hopefully clearup some 

### I Mr. Tice's baggage was confiscated. Do you even have ofthe confusion that appears to be at present with 

### 2 any idea ifit still exists for examination at this regard to the FAA's prosecutorial decisions in this 

### 3 time? matter. 

### 4 MR. SARGENT: 

### Jdon't believe so, Your Honor. JUDGE SULLIVAN: Could you-- 

### 5 And based upon Mr. Tice's statement, and

### Jthink the MR. SARGENT: 

### Jwould-- yes, Your Honor. 

### 6 information thatwehave in our file, he had asked them JUDGE SULLIVAN:

-- stop you. I've probably 

### 7 to dispose ofit at the time it was confiscated. erred by using that term and not explaining it. Can 

### 8 Typically, and again one ofthe other issues of you explain to both Mr. Tice and myselfwhat a de 

### 9 confusion may be with regard to, you know, the agent

-- minimis exception is and where it might be found in 

### 10 the fact that there was more than one agency sort of
some circumstances? What does that mean? II involved in the matter. The TSA, which is not the same MR. SARGENT: Well, a de minimis exception 

### 12 as the FAA, is typically the agencythat is responsible would be for certain types and only certain types of 

### 13 for inspecting the passengers' baggage and confiscating regulated materials can be offered in small orminute 

### 14 the material ifthey, you know, they find something. quantities provided that certain other steps are taken, 

### 15 In this case, it looks like from the that they're declared properly orpackaged, labeled, 

### 16 information that I have and Mr. Tice had had, and all that sort ofthing. Itonly applies to certain 

### 17 typically what they'll do is they will confiscate it types ofmaterials, and it only applies to certain 

### 18 and

-- or in fact remove from the baggage, and then quantities ofthose types ofmaterials. 

### 19 once they contactthe passengerthey'll askthe Unfortunately for Mr. Tice, the material 

### 20 passengerwhatthey would like to do with it. You offered at issue here is not one ofthose. In fact, 

### 21 know, obviously it can'ttravel aboard the aircraft. So liquefied petroleum gas is specificallyprohibited such 

### 22 the passenger, 

### I guess, at that point, would have the



### 23
that

-- and 

### Iheard YourHonor state thatthe quantity I option as to whetherthey would want someone to come necessarily wouldn't be relevantto the violations at 

### 2 pick it up or simply dispose ofit. AndMr. Tice, issue here. Not only is that correct, 

### Jwould take it 

### 3 apparently in this case, electedto have it disposed
a step further. Even ifthe canisterwas empty, 

### 4 of, you know, and so maybe led to some more confusion because this material is forbidden, it can't be offered 

### 5 because obviously by the timethe FAA and then for transport aboard the passenger-carrying aircraft. 

### 6 obviously the TSA orthe airport person or actually the And 

### Ican turn your attention to 

### 49 C.F.R. 

### 7 airlines are typically responsible for notifyingthe 

### 173.29, which deals specifically with empty packages 

### 8 FAA ofwhen these types ofhazardous materials are, in and which essentially statesthat unless it's-- and it 

### 9 fact, found. And then so bythe timethe FAA agent also provides an exception so that ifyou completely-- 

### 10 gets to it, which appears to have happened inthis ifyou can prove that you completelypurged the 

### 11 case, the actual containerhad already been disposed canister ofthe material, you could potentially offer 

### 12 of. it for transport. But with regard to this type of 

### 13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let me ask you another material, even ifit's empty, the regulation 

### 14 question. Itappears undisputed by the pat1ies that essentially states that itneeds to be offered in the 

### 15 the canisterwas found and disposed ofbefore it
same mannerthat would be required ifit was containing 

### 16 entered the airplane. Mr. Tice has raised an argument
a greater quantity ofthat hazardous material. So 

### 17 in response to your renewed motion that in essence his essentially, it wouldn't matter whatthe actual 

### 18 actions, which were unintentional, did not result in quantity was. And because this material is forbidden, 

### 19 any actual harm. So why would your client, the FAA,

no quantity can be offered. 

### 20 seekto pursue this prosecution? Do you have an JUDGE SULLIVAN: Letme askyou a follow-up 

### 21 opinion orinformation about that? Why is it important question to that. So the canisterthat was offered in 

### 22 for your client to pursue this allegation?


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MR. SARGENT: Sure. And in response to that, 1 safe, you know, once the material is offered, it's a I would obviously-- we have a sanctioned guidance 2 safety risk. Whether it gets on the plane ornot is policy, you know, sort ofthe direction that we follow, 3 not something that we would consider as a mitigating and that guides our decision making with regards to 4 factor. And obviously, our sanction policies are set these types ofcases. So with regardto that 5 with the idea ofdeterrence in orderto make sure that statement, one ofthe things we consider when we assess 6 these types ofviolations don't occur. And so I think,
a civil penalty are, you know, mitigating and 7 you know, to consider that no one was actually harmed aggravating factors. 8 in this matter is sort of-- sort ofunderminesthat Andthe guidance, the policy which is 9 portion ofour policy and sort ofundenninesthe contained in FAA Order 2150.3B, which is also publicly 10 deterrent effect ofus and ofthe FAA as an available, and there's aparticular section dealing 11 organization and its role as
-- in the enforcement of with the enforcement ofhazardous materials regulations 12 hazardous materials regulations. violations. You know, that section sort ofsets out 13 I mean they're not there to try to make the factors that we consider, howwe, sort ofhow we go 14 people feel bad orto try to necessarily take money out about determining what our sanction is and the things 15 ofpeople's wallets purposefully. Butunfortunately, that we consider. That policy, you know, in and of 16 it's been determined thatthis is the best way to deter itselfspecifically states that ifapackage contains 17 these types of, you know, even when they're mistakes, forbidden material a maximum penalty should be 18 as Mr. Tice alleges here, they create situations where, assigned. And we have a chartthat sets outthe ranges 19 you know, dangerous goods couldbe sitting in the cargo for penalties according to the type ofviolation, you 20 aircraft ofaplane. And again, you know, even with an know, whether it's an individual ora business and a 21 empty canister, all you need is some fumes and a spark number ofother factors thatwe consider. 22 in the cargo hold ofan aircraft and you have a

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But it does specifically state that ifa 

### I catastrophic situation on your hands. And so this is package contains forbidden material, then maximum 2 howthe FAAhas elected to try to deterthese types of weight is assigned which would --which is to say that 3 situations from happening, and we believe that we've it

-- we don't necessarily

-- and also based upon the 4 acted appropriately according to ourpolicies in this statutory authority for assessing a civil penalty, 5 case. which is 49 U.S. Code-- forgive me. 

### Jjustneed to 6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Letme askyou a question pull it up. 49 U.S.C. Section 5123(a) which sets out 7 about one ofthe cites that you've provided,just so the civil penalty which in its minimum would be $250 8 that MT. Tice and I can look it up and be successful. should

-- is assessed when a hazardous material 9 You had talked about a citation to showthe enforcement violation is found. That sanction guidance policy 10 ofhazardous violations as 2150.3B. Do you remember fmiher statesthat we don't typically, in any case, in 11 that? fact, I can pointto page T-10 ofour policy actually 12 MR. SARGENT: Yes. states it. "In no case may the civil penalty for 13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Nowdoes that have any violation be less than the minimum allowed by law." 14 beginning orending? Does it have like 49 U.S.C. or49 So, you know, given the policy, sort ofour 15 C.F.R. attached to it in any way? sanction bible as we set it, you know, we
-- there 16 MR. SARGENT: Itdoes not. In fact, you-- really isn't a whole lot ofdiscretion with regard to 17 ifyou were going to do an Internet search, which is this type ofviolation, you know, despite the-- 18 probably the easiest way, I can provide a link. Ijust people's opinions about what, you know, what should be 19 have to look it up and it's sort of-- it would prosecuted and what shouldn't. You know, I think if 20 probablybe easierfor me tojusthave you Google you consider, you know, the FAA's function in trying-- 21 search it orjusttype in "FAA Order 2150.3B" rather essentially tryingto make sure that airplanes are kept 22 than to read outthe entire link. It should comeright


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up on an Internet search, and it is publicly available. I 

### canisterthat was at issue here. Again, this is-- the JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thankyou very much. 

### 2 canister in this case is specifically prohibited for Is there anything else that you would like to add to 

### 3 passenger-carrying aircraft. your rebuttal in this motion for-- renewed motion? 

### 4 The FAA does allow exceptions for cigarette Excuse me. 

### 5 lighters, like aBic cigarette lighter, tor instance, MR. SARGENT: Are you referring to myself, 

### 6 that can be carried on the person, and there is a Your Honor, orMr. Tice? 

### 7 significant difference there with regard to the JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. I'm still speaking to 

### 8 violation at issue here because those exceptions are you, sir. 

### 9 allowed, again, you can have one on your person as MR. SARGENT: Okay. No. I think I more or 

### 10 opposed to offering it in your checked baggage which Jess covered the FAA's position. You know, again, we 11 

### would make sense because the liquefied petroleum gas in understand Mr. Tice's, you know, arguments. But again, 

### 12 checked baggage, you know, with

-- in a cargo hold in a
none ofthem really seem to apply to the underlying 

### 13 bag surrounded by other bags wherethere can be violation and those that

-- orthe fact that a 

### 14 friction and moving around in the cargo hold ofan violation did occur. With regard to, you know, the 

### 15 aircraft, you know, can be

-- could be amuch more commentary on the FAA's choice ofprosecution, you 

### 16 dangerous situation than having a small amount in a know, I would submitthat there isn't much ofa choice 

### 17 cigarette lighter on your person, and I would imagine, giventhe application ofthe laws at issue and our own 

### 18 and again, I don't have-- I couldn't offhand give you sanction guidance policies. You know, we believe that 

### 19 the chemical composition ofthe fuel that's contained

a civil penalty is appropriate in this type ofcase. 

### 20 in every single lighter that's out there. ButI would And we believe that we've acted in accordance with 

### 21 imagine that the lighters to which Mr. Tice is those policies. And so that's, you know, in this case, 

### 22 referring to probably contain a quantity offuel or a



### 31
the penalty that we've proposed, you know, is 

### 1 type offuel that's different fi·om that which is appropriate. 

### 2 regulated than the one thathe offered for

-- in his JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Sargent. 

### 3 checked baggage. Mr. Tice, I'm going to give you right of 

### 4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thankyou. final reply before I make aruling. Do you have 5 

### Mr. Tice, anything else thatyou would like anything else thatyou would like to add to your 

### 6 to add to your responsive argument? response? 

### 7 MR. TICE: Well, I mean I've already said it MR. TICE: Well, Ijusthave a question. I'm 

### 8 but, you know, from the layman's terms what's in this
a little confused because at one point I think I heard 

### 9 type ofcigarette lighterthat we're referring to is Mr. Sargent say that in all cases liquefied petroleum 

### IO calledbutane. That seems very similarto the fuel fuel is prohibited in any amount fi·om airplanes. And 

### II that I oflered. And I'm totally at a loss as to how I'mjustwondering whatis in cigarette lighters ifnot 

### I2 having butane in your pocket, with ameans to release liquefied petroleum fuel? 

### 13 it and ignite it, I mean, that's all built into the JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Sargent, would you be 

### 14 cigarette lighter itself, is in any way more dangerous willing to answer that question? 

### 15 than having it in a sealed container whereyou have no MR. SARGENT: Well, it's a somewhat difficult 

### 16 way ofreleasing origniting it in the back ofthe question for me to answer because I don't have the 

### 17 plane. But that'sjustmy opinion, I guess. materials, the safety data sheets, for every single 

### 18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. lighterthat's everbeen produced. There's a number of 

### 19 MR. SARGENT: Yeah. Ithink, you know

-- different types oflighters, and I can try to explain 

### 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Right. Go ahead. Mr.
some ofthe confusion that Mr. Tice appears to have 

### 21 Sargent, go ahead. with regards to a cigarette lighterversus the gas 

### 22 MR. SARGENT: I'm sorry. AndI thinkpart


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of, you know, the issue being here that it's, you know, 

### I need to reschedule the rest ofwhatwe were planning to
we didn't

-- I'm notthe person who is responsible for 2 do today to another day, and I thinkI need to do that designating hazardous materials and in fact writing the 3 rightnowbefore we get cut offby the conference regulations. And it sounds like Mr. Tice's issue 4 operator. So can I askyou both to look at your appears to be more with that and howmaterials are 5 calendars, and we'll pick another day to reconvene tor designated as hazardous materials andregulated. And 6 the remaining portion ofthe Rule 16 conference. And unfortunately, I don't think that necessarily is 7 then I'll tell you whatmy ruling is orally. relevant or determinative ofthe issues that we're 8 Mr. Sargent, starting with you, I am looking facing here today. 9 at your calendar, and I'm going to tell you when I'm JUDGE SULLIVAN: AndI'm going to stop 10 next available. Doyou have time the week ofJune 9th whoever was going to talk. II to reconvene for aRule 16 conference, to actually set Mr. Tice, did you have anything else you 12 litigation dates and discovery issues, that kind of would like to add? It sounded like there was a start 13 thing? ofa comment. 14 MR. SARGENT: Looks like I would have some MR. TJCE: Yeah. All I was saying is it 15 availability during that week, YourHonor.

seems to me it's relevant in the sense ofthat I hope 16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Doyouhave any this wholeproceeding is aboutjusticebeing done. And 17 blackout dates?

so that it seems to merelevant in that regard. 18 MR. SARGENT: Otherthan it looks like June JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank-- 19 14th, I think I would be fairly open for that week. MR. TJCE: I certainly don't argue that 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Tice, looking at government regulations are stupid in and ofthemselves 21 

# --
or are sometimes ridiculous, but Ijustthink that it's 22 MR. SARGENT: YourHonor, I'm sorry to

35
incumbent and very impmtantthat the people that are I interrupt. June 12th in the afternoon as well would be charged with enforcingthe governmentregulations do so 2 a blackout date for me. I'm sorry. withjustice and rationality in mind because whenthey 3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thankyou. don't, it sort ofleads peopleto question all 4 Mr. Tice, looking atyour calendar, eitheron regulations and, you know, whetherthe governmentis 5 June 12th in the morning, June 13th, any time that day, justdoing things that are stupid. And I don't want 6 Monday, June 1Oth, any time that day, do any ofthose that to be. I really believe in ourjustice system and 7 times workfor you to reconvene?

our government, and I think they really have a duty to 8 MR. TICE: Yeah. I think I would be have regulations that make sense and people believe in 9 available at any ofthose times. and are enforced fairly. And so that's whyI'm raising 10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, we met at II this issue. 11 o'clocktoday. So how about ifwe meetnext-- on JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thankyou very much. 12 Thursday, June 13, 2013 at II a.m. Eastern Time, and I thinkI can agree with you with a large portion of 13 plan on one hourjustto be on the safe side, and we'll whatyou'vejust said. Itbehooves us to have laws 14 talk about setting hearing dates forwhateverissues that are tailored to real experiencesthat make sense 15 we're going to actually litigate. that people can understand and thatprovide safety 16 MR. TJCE: Okay. Ifl couldjust-- so you umbrellas for all ofus. 17 said onehour on Thursday starting at

-- it would be II I'm going to thank

-- 18 o'clock or II o'clockEastern Time? MR. TJCE: Thankyou. 19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. AndI take it this is JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. I'm going to thank 20 Mr. Tice speakingright now? you both very much toryour arguments thatyou've made 21 MR. TICE: Yes. I'm sorry. This is Mr. today, and I note that we're almost out oftime. I 22 Tice. Thursdays atnoon mytime, I attend aRotary Club


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# Capital ReportingCompany InRe: ScottTice 05-16-2013

38 meeting here in town. So ifit'sjustone hour, that I actually look at the hazardous materials regulations, would be perfect. 2 they're extraordinarily complex, and they cover a JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, would you ratherthat 3 tremendous amount ofinformation and a wide variety of
we set it for 10 a.m.? 4 hazardous materials, and it could take years to become MR. TICE: Well, 11 a.m. your time is I0 a.m. 5 an expert on whatthat all means. So as aresult, it's my time so that works. I'm in Central Time. 6 not a surprise that we have people like Mr. Tice and JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. That's fine then, 11 7 others who very innocently will pack certain things
a.m. Eastern Time. 8 either on their person or in their luggage and find, to Okay. In the remaining time we have left, 9 their surprise, that these items that might have been this is what I'm going to do. I will grant over 10 allowed 25 or 30 years ago no longer are allowed. So I objection aMotion to Deem Allegations Admitted in ]] would agree thatthere is a continuing evolution of their entirety, and Twill do that because there is no 12 education ofour citizenry about these newer dispute essentially that the allegations as listed 13 regulations that nowgovern our activities and behavior occurred. There was, as we have talked about, a fuel 14 as we try and fly the friendly skies. canister containing hazardous material offered in Mr. 15 So with that, I will issue an order, written Tice's checked luggage for transportation by the FAA. 16 order, thatbasically grants the motion regarding the As we have also talked about, that was discovered 17 violations themselves, but reserves the parties' right before the baggagereached the airplane. Itwas turned 18 to engage in litigation regarding their dispute on the --taken out ofthe baggage and not transported by the 19 proposed penalty. And I will tJ)' and issue that order FAA all to the good in the sense that the matterwas 20 as soon as possible. But as you can tell from my caught early on, as Mr. Tice has noted. 21 voice, I'm a little bitunder the weather, and I'm not I will note that there is no de minimis 22 quite sure when I'll getbackto ramming speed, 

### ifi

39 exception for this particulartype ofhazardous I may use that term fi·om the "Ben-Hur" movie. ButI'll material and that Mr. Tice's de minimis arguments, as I 2 get it out as soon as possible. would title them, cannot stand under a strict 3 And then in the meantime, I'll look forward application ofthe hazardous regulations. 4 to talking to you both early next month, June 13, 2013, I would note that Mr. Tice still has the 5 at 11 a.m. Eastern Time, and at that point, we can talk opportunity to argue all ofthe mitigating 6 about any discovery issues that need to be addressed, circumstances that we lightly touched upon today for 7 how much hearing time will need to be reserved, who the addressing the issue ofthe civil penalty which, as 8 parties are thinking ofcalling as witnesses to address proposed at this time, is $600 total for the 10 9 the civil penalty issue and also where that should be violations thathave been alleged and proved. I would 10 held. I knowthere's some dispute about location and also note, and this was not discussed by the parties, II the form ofthe hearing itself. We can address that thatpart ofthe hazardous materials regulations 12 next month. address the differences between lighter fuel in a Bic 13 And as always, the two ofyou are welcome to container, for example, and fuel in othertypes of 14 continue talking. As I tell everybody in the cases of containers. And one ofthe things that the hazardous 15 litigants who appear before me, it's always preferable material regulations talk about is air pressure quality 16 ifyou can engage in ongoing settlement negotiations up and the difference that occurs when you have different 17 to and including the day oftrial. So ifyou are so types offuels subjected to different air pressures. 18 inclined, feel free to talkto each other again about And it should be undisputed by everyone here thatthe 19 those kinds ofsettlement discussions at any time air pressure in a cargo hold is very different than the 20 between nowand June 13, 2013. air pressure in apassenger section ofan airplane. 21 With that, on behalfofthe FAA, Mr. Sargent, Now, I think we can also agree that ifyou 22 is there anything else thatyou would like to add or


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correctto the record today? I CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC MR. SARGENT: Not atthis time, YourHonor. 2 I, Janel Folsom, the officerbefore whom the HJDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Tice, on behalfof 3 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certifythat yourself, is there anything else you would like to add 4 the testimony appearing in the foregoing pages was

or correct to the record or any question you would like 5 recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting

to ask? 6 under my direction; that said transcription is a true Well, there is one thing, and I 7 record ofthe testimony given by said parties; that I MR. TICE: 8 am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by may have misspoke slightly. What actually happened 9 any ofthe parties to the action in which this hearing when the ticket agent called me up to the stand and 10 was taken; and, further, that I am not arelative or asked me or showed me the canister offuel, I didn't II employee ofany counsel or attorney employed by the ask

-- whatI said was I meantto dispose ofit. I 12 parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise meant to throwit away. Itwas in my, you know, it was 13 interested in the outcome ofthis action.

a used container, apiece oftrash. It was nothing 14 thatI wanted. I did not ask him to dispose ofit. I 15 said that I had intended to. I didn't intend to have 16 it in my bag. And ifiwould have known thatI was going to 17 Janel Folsom
be prosecuted for this thing, I certainly would not Digital Comi Rep01ier 18 have asked him to dispose ofit because it seems to me 19 an important piece ofevidence. 20 HJDGE SULLIVAN: So noted. And I would 21 encourageyou to remember to add thatto your list of 22

43 mitigating circumstances ifyou would like. I CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION MR. TICE: Okay. Thank you. 2 HJDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thankyou all very 3 I, Karen Ehatt, hereby certify that I am much for yourpresencetoday and for your 4 notthe Court Rep01ier who rep01ied the proceeding participation. Itappears ourbusiness today is 5 and that I have typed the transcript ofthe complete. With that, we can go offthe record and I 6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and wish you all a good day. Thankyou. 7 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript COURTREPORTER: Thankyou. 8 is atrue, correct and complete transcription ofthe MR. TICE: Thankyou. 9 proceedings.
MR. SARGENT: Thankyou. 10 (Whereupon, at 12:03 p.m., the hearing in II 12 re: Scott Tice was adjourned.) 13 Date Karen Ehatt 14 Transcriptionist 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22


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# Capital Reporting Company

CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER

I, Janel B. Folsom, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that
the proceedings were taken by me in stenotype and
thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that
said proceedings are a true record; that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in these proceedings were taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this
action.

Janel B. Folsom Court Reporter

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# I CapitalReportingCompany

CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION

I, KAREN EHATT, hereby certify that I am not the
Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding
and that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and complete transcription of said proceeding.

Date KAREN EHATT Transcriptionist



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# I

I

## $ $250 27:8 $600 39:9

0 0042 3:4 01803 2:7

1 1 3:21 10 38:4,5 39:9 lOth 37:6 11 37:10,12,17,18 38:5,7 41:5 11:031:18 12 2:6 12:0343:11 1200 1:15 12th 37:1,5 13 37:1241:4,20 13th 37:5 14th 36:19 15 3:4 4:9 16 1:10 3:5 36:6,11 172 14:2 172.204 13:17 172.204(a 13:20 172.600(c)(l 11:16 173.29 23:8 1st 8:1

2 2013 1:10 3:4,21 4:3,5,10 37:12 41:4,20 

# CapitalReportingCompany InRe: ScottTice 05-16-2013 Pagel
204 14:3 accepted 8:3 2150.3B 26:10 Accepting 3:21 29:10,21 access 12:16 14:6 25 40:10 accordance 7:22 26(f4:3 9:1 30:21 according 12:2 3 26:20 29:4 30 40:10 acknowledged 6:2
4 acted 29:4 30:21 413:11,12 acting 3:9 15:4 49 11:15 action 44:9,13 13:17,19,22 23:7 actions 25:18 27:6,7 29:14 activities 40:13
5 actual6:17 23:18 5123(a 27:7 25:11,19 actually 5:8 6:4 10:1811:19 6 12:19 13:2,10 6 13:12 17:20 19:1 25:6 27:12 28:7 36:1 I 7 37:15 40:1 42:8 7-page 13:11 add 21 :5 30:3 31:6 33:6 34:13 41:22 9 42:4,22 9 4:3,4 13:16 addition 4:4 9th 7:22 36:10 8:12,19 address 16:16 A 

## 18:10 39:13 a.m 1:18 37:12 41 :8,1 1 38:4,5,8 41:5 addressed 8:5 abilities 5: 1 9 18:1141:6 aboard 21 :21 23:6 addressing 39:8 24:21 adjourned 43:12 above-captioned Administration 1:13 1:2 3:7 Accept4:1 admitted 4:6 6:3 acceptable 5: 12 7:15 8:13 9:15


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## 2013 10:1 38:11 afternoon 37:1 against 6:4,6 11:1413:11 agency 2:2 24:10,12 agent 7:7 19:3 20:1 24:9 25:9 42:9 aggravating 26:8 ago 9:2 40:10 agreed 8:10 ah 19:4 ahead 7:16,18 33:20,21 air 39:16,18,20,21 aircraft21:22 23:6 24:21 28:20,22 32:3,15 airlines 25:7 airplane 19:9 25:1638:18 39:21 airplanes 27:22 31:11 airport 14:12 18:20,22 20:21 25:6 airports 21 :3 allegation 25:22 allegations 4:6 7:14 8:9 9:15 10:1 38:11,13 alleged 6:4 8:7,12 9:5 39:10 alleges 28:18 alleging 10:18

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# Page2
30:20 3I:2 allowed 27:14 32:9 appropriately B 

## backpacking 1I : 1 40:10 already 25:11 33:7

am 16:18 20:I 36:8 44:8,10 45:3 amount 6:21 9:8 I0:21 I6:3,IO 2I:1531:1I 32:16 40:3 and/or 8:16 9:8,18 Andy 2:14 3:13

answer4:1 8:3,I4,I8 31:15,17 anymore 14:11 anyone I0:19II:5 17:218:1 anything 1 0:I8 2I :5 30:3 3I:6 33:5 34:I241:22 42:4 anywhere 10:20 apparently25:3 appear21:3 41:15 appearing44:4 appears 8:21 9:3 22:2 25:I0,14 3I :2I 34:5 43:5 application 30:I8 39:4 applied 15:13 applies 22:17,18 apply 30:13 appreciate 21:8 appropriate 10:15 29:4 appropriateness bad 28:14 8:16 9:8 bag 19:2 32:13 approximately 42:16 1:18 baggage I8:I8 aren't20:11 24:1 ,I3,I8
argue 5:8,12,I6 32:10,I2 33:3 38:I8,19 34:20 39:6 bags 13:14 18:2I arguing 6:I4 2I :3 32:13 argument9:3 21:6 Barronett 12:4 25:16 33:6 B-A-R-R-0-N-Earguments 30:I2 T-T 12:4 35:2I 39:2 based 8:2,13,17 assertion 18:I7 9:2,I2 14:I4 21:13 24:5 27:4 assertions 19: 16 basically 40:I6
assess 26:6 became 8:5 assessed 27:9 become40:4 assessing 27:5 beginning 1: 17 assigned 13:I5 29:14 26:19 27:3 behalf2:2,9 41:21 attached 29:15 42:3 attempt 7:20 behavior40:I3 attend 37:22 behooves 35:14 attention I4:5 believe 9:17 20:4 23:7 24:4 29:3 attorney 3:6 44:II 30:I9,2I 35:7,9 authority 27:5 Ben-Hur41:I availability 36:15 Bennett2:3 3:8
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away I2:I2 42:I2 bit 3:16 5:22 15:5 

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## 2013 40:21 blackout 36:I7 37:2 book 13:22 I4:I briefly 7:21 bring 14:4 brought I6:1I built33:I3 Burlington 2:7 business 26:21 43:5 butane I6:6 33:10,12



# c c)(l13:I8 C.F.R 1I :15 13:17,19 14:1 23:7 29:I5 calendar 36:9 37:4 calendars 36:5 canister 10:22 11:217:17I9:4 2I:15 23:4,I2,22 25:I5 28:21 32:1,2 38:I5 42:10 canisters I4:21 Capital I :I7

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cases 18:4 20:15,17 26:5 31:1041:14 catastrophic29:1 caught 38:21 Cause 3:22 Central 38:6 certain 22:13,15,17,18 40:7 certainly 9:10,18,1916:15 34:20 42:18 CERTIFICATE 44:1 45:1 certify44:3 45:3 chance 11:13,16 chapter 13:22 14:2,3 charged 6:6 35:2 chart26:19 checked 18:18 32:10,12 33:3 38:16 chemical 32:19 choice 30:16,17 cigarette 16:7 31:12,22 32:4,5,17 33:9,14 circumstances 22:11 39:7 43:1 citation 12:20 13:16,22 29:9 citations 13:2 

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cited 8:10,13 9:6 confiscate 24:17 13:1 confiscated 10:14 cites 29:7 17:9 20:21 citizenry40:12 24:1,7 city 12:7,10 confiscating 24:13
civil 4:7 7: 1 5 8: 1 5 confused 20:11 9:8,17 10:3 26:7 31:9 27:5,8,13 30:20 confusion 22:2 39:841:9 24:9 25:4 31:21 claims 7:1 conserve 15:2 clarify 19:22 consider class 13:14 26:6,14,16,22 27:21 28:3,7 clear 8:5 10:17 15:8 22:1 constitute 1:12 6:22 client25:19,22 construction Club 37:22 15:17,18 Code 14:1 27:6 contact24:19 comfortable 5:9 contain 32:22 comment 34:14 contained 8:18 commentary 10:22 26:10 30:16 32:19
comments20:3 container committed 9:21 14:9,11,15 25:11 33:15 39:14 Company 1: 17 42:13 complaint 8:8 containers 39:15 11:1313:2,5,11 containing23:16 complete43:6 38:15 45:8 contains 26:17 completely 17:21 27:2 23:10,11 continue41:14 complex40:2 continuing 40:11 composition 32:19 convened 3:5 concern 20:15 convening4:9 concerns 18:13 conversations conference 3:6 4:8 8:19,21 36:3,6,11 

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cover40:2 covered 30:11 create28:18 cut 36:3

D 

## D.C 1:10,16 dangerous 28:19 32:1633:14 data 31:18 date 37:2 45:13 dates 36:12,17 37:14 day 36:2,5 37:5,6 41:17 43:7 de21:14,16,19 22:9,12 38:22 39:2 dealing 26:11 deals 23:8 decide 19:20 20:6 decides 20:5 decision 20:2 26:4

## decisions 22:3 declared 22:16 deem 7:14 38:11 deemed 11:8 deeming 4:5 9:15 10:1 defenses 6:10 7:2 deny 6:9 Department 1 :15 designated 34:6 designating 34:3 despite 27:18 deter 28:16 29:2 determinative 34:8 determine 11 :3 determined 28:16 determining 26:15 deterrence 28:5 deterrent28:10 difference 15: 17 16:5 32:7 39:17 differences 39:13 different4: 12 20:13 31:20 33:1 39:17,18,20 difficult 31:16 Digital 44: 1 7 diminished 15: 1 direction 26:3 44:6 discovered 38:17 discovery 4:4 9: 18 36:12 41:6 discretion 27:17 

# CapitalReportingCompany InRe: ScottTice 05-16-2013 Page4
discuss 9:7,10 33:5 34:12 41:22 discussed 39: 11 42:4
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## (866) 448

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## (866) 448

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# CapitalReportingCompany InRe: ScottTice 05-16-2013 Page6 33:11,22 34:2,10 interpretive 15:18 35:10,18,20 interrupt 37:1 36:9,22 37:2,21 involved 24:11 38:6,10 40:21 imagine 16:18 isn't 17:127:17 32:17,21 30:17 important25:21 isobutane 16:6 35:1 42:20 issue 4:6,15 6:5 inclined 41:18 9:12,15,17 10:I,2 18:9,10 including4I:17 22:21 23:3 30:18 inconsistency21 :2 32:1,8 34:1,4 incumbent 35:1 35:11 39:8 indicated 19:II 40:15,19 41:9 issued 4:2 8:1 individual 26:21 11:1413:II individuals 21 :2 issues 9:19 24:8 information 8:18 34:8 36:12 37:I4 14:6,7 17:6 41:6 24:6,16 25:21 items 10:13,14 40:3 40:9 initially 20:4 it's 7:9,10 11:6 innocently40:7 13:14 18:22 20:8 insignificant 11 :8 23:9,14 26:21 28:1,16 29:19 inspecting 24:13 31:16 34:1,16,22 inspection 18:20 38:1 40:5 41:15 instance 32:5 IV 2:3 3:8 Instead 6: 10 I've 5:5 6:12 16:5 intend 42:15 17:7,8,18 18:1 19:420:1821:7 intended 42:15 22:7 33:7 intentional 6:18 interested 44:13 J 

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## (866) 448

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## www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 

## 2013 5:2,15,20 7:5,18 10:4 11:10,20 12:2,6,11,14,18 13:8 14:14 15:11,16 17:4 18:3,6,15 19:8,11,22 20:14 21:10 22:5,7 23:21 25:13 29:6,13 30:2,8 31:3,14 33:4,18,20 34:10,19 35:12,20 36:16,20 37:3,10,19 38:3,7 42:3,21 43:3 June 36:10,18 37:1,5,6,12 41:4,20 justice 16:20,22 34:17 35:3,7

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## (866) 448

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## www.CapitalReportingCompany.com© 

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## (866) 448

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## www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 

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## www.CapitalReportingCompany.com© 

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