# Date: March 23, 2015 **Case:** Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## U. S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING FOR HEARTH PRODUCTS STANDARDS MEETING

U.S. Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, D.C. 20585 Room No. 8E-089

Monday, March 23, 2015 9:00 a.m.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Appearances for Department of Energy meeting. 2 

## Doug Brookman - Public Solutions 3 

## John Cymbalsky - DOE 4 

## Ashley Armstrong - DOE 5 6 

## Timothy Ballo - Earthjustice 7 

## Leslie S. Bortz - RH Peterson Co. 8 

## Robert J. Dischner - RH Peterson Co. 9 

## Michael A. Caldarera - National Propane Gas 10 

## Association 11 

## Ryan Carroll - Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association 12 

## Rachel Feinstein - Hearth, Patio & Barbecue 13 

## Association 14 

## Jack H. Goldman - Hearth, Patio & Barbecue 15 

## Association 16 

## John A. Hodges - Wiley Rein LLP 17 

## Caroline Davidson-Hood - Air-Conditioning, Heating & 18 

## Refrigeration Institute 19 

## James E. Houck - Technical Consultant - Energy and 20 

## Environment 21 

## Jim Kupsh - SIT Controls USA Inc. 22 

## Daniel Lapato - American Public Gas AssociationNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Jessica Lewis - Navigant 2 

## Adam Darlington - Navigant 3 

## Justin Elszasz - Navigant 4 

## Michael Rivest - Navigant 5 

## Barton Day - Law Offices of Barton Day, PLLC 6 

## David Delaquila - Aquila Consulting LLC 7 

## Dana Moroz - Napoleon Products 8 

## Tim Perrin - Polsinelli 9 

## Theodore E. (Rett) Rasmussen, III - Rasmussen Gas 10 

## Logs & Grills 11 

## Raymond T. Reott - Reott Law Offices, LLC 12 

## Steven J. Rosenstock - Edison Electric Institute 13 

## John Schlachter - Maxitrol Company 14 

## Harry A. Sporidis - Polsinelli 15 

## Frank Stanonik - Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 16 

## Refrigeration Institute 17 

## Sue Walker - Empire Comfort Systems 18 

## Gregory Rosenevist - Lawrence Berkeley National Lab 19 

## David Siap - Lawrence Berkeley National Lab 20 21 22Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## P R O C E E D I N G S 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Please take your seats we 3 

## will begin. Good morning everyone welcome, glad to 4 

## see you here this morning. This is the Notice of 5 

## Proposed Rulemaking Public Meeting on Energy 6 

## Conservation Standards for Hearth Products. Today is 7 

## March 23, 2015 here in the Forrestal Building in 8 

## Washington, D.C. at the Department of Energy. 9 

## My name is Doug Brookman of Public 10 

## Solutions Baltimore nice to see you here this 11 

## morning. We are going to start with welcoming 12 

## remarks from Ashley Armstrong. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning everyone, I 14 

## would just like to welcome you to the public meeting. 15 

## We are glad to have such a good turnout and we hope 16 

## that everyone will participate throughout the date. 17 

## We are here to at least give you an overview of our 18 

## proposal and obviously we welcome you to speak up, 19 

## ask questions, say comments as that is the purpose of 20 

## this public meeting and we thank you all for coming 21 

## today. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We always start withNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## introductions. Start to my immediate left and you 2 

## can get used to turning the microphone both on and 3 

## off please say your name and organizational 4 

## affiliation. 5 

## MR. GOLDMAN: Jack Goldman, Hearth, Patio 6 

## and Barbecue Association. 7 

## MR. CARROLL: Ryan Carroll with the 8 

## Hearth, Patio and Barbecue Association. 9 

## MR. DAY: Barton Day Counsel for HPBA. 10 

## MR. HODGES: John Hodges Wiley Rein, 11 

## Counsel for Natural Propane Gas Association. 12 

## MR. CALDARERA: Mike Caldarera, National 13 

## Propane Gas Association. 14 

## MR. DIRCKS: Peter Dircks with Hearth and 15 

## Home Technologies. 16 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Ratt Rasmussen with 17 

## Rasmussen Gas Logs and Grills. 18 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz with Robert H. 19 

## Peterson Company. 20 

## MR. SKOLNICK: Steve Skolnick, Skolnick 21 

## Associates and Mid Atlantic Hearth Products 22 

## Association.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. SCHLACHTER: John Schlachter with 2 

## Maxitrol Company. 3 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, Air 4 

## Conditioning Refrigeration Institute. 5 

## MR. LAPATO: Dan Lapato, American Public 6 

## Gas Association. 7 

## MS. WALKER: Sue Walker, Empire Comfort 8 

## Systems. 9 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 10 

## Electric Institute. 11 

## MR. KUPSH: Jim Kupsh, SIT Controls. 12 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General 13 

## Counsel's office. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's see if that 16 

## microphone over there works. 17 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, Lawrence 18 

## Berkeley National Laboratory. 19 

## MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant 20 

## Consulting. 21 

## MR. SIAP: David Siap, Lawrence Berkeley 22 

## National Laboratory.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, Nagivant 2 

## Consulting. 3 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Justin Elszasz, Navigant 4 

## Consulting. 5 

## MS. LEWIS: Jessica Lewis, Navigant 6 

## Consulting. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: If those of you in the back 8 

## if you will just stand and introduce yourself please 9 

## this will not be on the record but we will have 10 

## business cards so we will know who is here, please. 11 

## MR. HOUCK: Jim Houck, an Independent 12 

## Consultant. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 14 

## MR. DELAQUILA: Dave Delaquila, consultant 15 

## from Action Company. 16 

## MS. FEINSTEIN: Rachel Feinstein, Hearth, 17 

## Patio and Barbeque Association. 18 

## MR. REOTT: Raymont Reott, R. H. Peterson 19 

## Company 20 

## MR. PERRIN: Tim Perrin, Consultant for 21 

## ACE 22 

## MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with EarthJustice.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DISCHNER: Bob Dischner, RH Peterson 2 

## and Company. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay and once again thanks 4 

## to all of you for being here for an early start on 5 

## this day. Nice to see so many folks here, all of you 6 

## received a packed of information I hope and if you 7 

## look on page 3 there is an agenda which I will do a 8 

## very brief review. 9 

## Immediately following this agenda review 10 

## and some preliminary information there is an 11 

## opportunity for opening comments, brief summary 12 

## statements here at the outset as we get this meeting 13 

## going. From there moving on to describing the 14 

## regulatory and authority rulemaking overview and then 15 

## moving on market technology assessment, we will take 16 

## a break mid-morning around about 10:15 or 10:30 or 17 

## so. Returning from the break engineering analysis, 18 

## markups, energy use characterization, lifecycle costs 19 

## and payback period analysis. 20 

## We will take lunch mid-day 12:30-ish. 21 

## Returning from lunch shipments, national impact 22 

## analysis, regulatory impact analysis, manufacturingNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## impact analysis and we will take a mid-afternoon 2 

## break and then following that or whenever we get 3 

## there utility impact analysis, environmental impact 4 

## analysis, indirect employment analysis and at the end 5 

## of the day whenever that is another opportunity for 6 

## closing remarks. 7 

## Issues that you wish to bring to the 8 

## floor, issues that haven't been covered sufficiently 9 

## during the course of this meeting today. That's the 10 

## general plan this is the framework that the 11 

## Department of Energy observes consistently. 12 

## Questions and comments on the agenda. Seeing none I 13 

## would ask for your consideration each time you speak 14 

## please say your name, please say your name each time 15 

## you speak. 16 

## There will be a complete transcript of 17 

## this meeting made available. I would ask you to 18 

## speak one at a time please if you could try to be 19 

## concise share the air time, there's a lot to be 20 

## covered here in this day. If you could keep the 21 

## focus here, please turn your cell phones on silent 22 

## mode.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## You are already getting used to turning 2 

## these microphones on and off and webinar participants 3 

## we welcome you, so glad you could join us via the 4 

## web, the Department of Energy is trying hard to make 5 

## sure all of these meetings are accessible via the 6 

## web. If you would try to keep your telephone on mute 7 

## and raise your hand in the software provided to be 8 

## recognized to speak and then when we unmute you and 9 

## I'll recognize you to speak, then we should be able 10 

## to hear you in the room. That's been working fairly 11 

## well recently and hopefully we won't have any 12 

## glitches today with the technology. 13 

## I think that is the bulk of what I am 14 

## supposed to cover except that I would encourage all 15 

## participants, everyone here in the room and also 16 

## those joining us via the web to send written comments 17 

## following this meeting. I'm saying this especially 18 

## for those that are joining via the web. We want to 19 

## make certain that you participate as well as everyone 20 

## who made it here into the meeting room itself. 21 

## And for the purpose of the public meeting 22 

## to John Cymbalsky.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks Doug, this is John 2 

## Cymbalsky from DOE, program manager for appliance 3 

## standards. The purpose of today's meeting is to 4 

## present the procedural and analytical approaches to 5 

## evaluate potential future energy conservation 6 

## standards for residential hearth products and of 7 

## course along the way we invite public comment on all 8 

## of the slides you will see here today and of course 9 

## any issue you might want to raise please feel free to 10 

## raise it as we go through the slides. 11 

## And then as we go through the deck you 12 

## will see the little issue boxes like you see up here 13 

## on the slide. Basically you can comment on anything 14 

## but these are the boxes you will see that DOE has 15 

## highlighted as important points that it wishes some 16 

## deeper comment on as we go along. 17 

## Comment period ends April 10th. Currently 18 

## I understand there may be a request for an extension 19 

## coming so please put that in writing and with reasons 20 

## why you need a comment extension. So at this time we 21 

## will take opening statements, I think we have a few 22 

## in the que.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, let's do that. Brief 2 

## opening statements, fairly brief I hope, summary 3 

## statements here at the outset who would like to 4 

## begin, okay is it Jack? 5 

## MR. GOLDMAN: Yes, my name is Jack 6 

## Goldman. Good morning I'm President and CEO of the 7 

## Hearth, Patio and Barbeque Association, the principal 8 

## trade association representing the hearth products 9 

## and barbeque industries in North America. 10 

## HPBA's experience with appliance efficiency 11 

## regulation has been difficult for both HPBA and DOE 12 

## in large part because of the unique characteristics 13 

## of hearth products and the fact that DOE has 14 

## proceeded on the basis of inadequate information 15 

## collection analysis and above all dialogue to inform 16 

## the rulemaking process. 17 

## DOE's current rulemaking is deficient for 18 

## the same basic reasons and it is my hope that this 19 

## can be corrected starting today. As we will explain 20 

## today significant errors compromise virtually every 21 

## aspect of DOE's preliminary regulatory analysis and 22 

## the proposed rule itself is premised on basicNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## misunderstandings with respect to the products and 2 

## the relevant technical and economic issues. 3 

## As a result, substantially more 4 

## information and analysis would be required to justify 5 

## any energy conservation standard and a new notice 6 

## providing an opportunity to comment on that new 7 

## information and analysis would be required before any 8 

## final rule could issue. 9 

## HPBA has thus requested that the proposed 10 

## rule be withdrawn and that the notice be treated as a 11 

## request for information. To facilitate comment for 12 

## that purpose HPBA is also requesting l) clarification 13 

## of the range of products at issue 2) additional 14 

## information and documentation concerning the basis 15 

## for DOE's regulatory analysis and 3) an extension of 16 

## the comment period to allow time for adequate review 17 

## of and comment on the relevant issues. 18 

## To facilitate comment it is particularly 19 

## important that DOE clarify the range of products at 20 

## issue. HPBA does not believe that DOE can lawfully 21 

## define a variety of different products as a single 22 

## "covered product" under EPCA. But let's put thatNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## issue aside for the moment. We can't even speak 2 

## intelligently about the issues raised by the proposed 3 

## rule without a clear understanding of the range of 4 

## products at issue. My hope is that we will be able 5 

## to achieve some clarify on that when we discuss the 6 

## first issue upon which DOE seeks comment, its 7 

## proposed hearth products definition. 8 

## We will need to understand the intended 9 

## scope of coverage before we can even begin to address 10 

## how best to define the scope of coverage, let alone 11 

## the technical and economic issues that may be 12 

## relevant to this rulemaking in view of that scope of 13 

## coverage. 14 

## There is one related point that I cannot 15 

## emphasize strongly enough. DOE is attempting to 16 

## regulate products that are unlike any appliances it 17 

## has ever sought to regulate before. It is also 18 

## seeking to regulate at one fell swoop products that 19 

## are materially different from each other in a variety 20 

## of ways that DOE has failed to recognize. This is a 21 

## critical problem because most of the basic data 22 

## required for regulatory analysis has never beenNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## collected and DOE has again and again sought to 2 

## overcome critical information gaps by assuming 3 

## incorrectly that information with respect to one 4 

## product can reasonably be applied to others. 5 

## Basic misunderstandings concerning the 6 

## products and markets involved here have also been a 7 

## source of many areas that undermine virtually every 8 

## aspect of the technical and economic analysis 9 

## underlying the proposed rule. We will address a 10 

## number of these issues when we discuss the specific 11 

## issues upon which DOE has requested comment. 12 

## The basic point I would like to emphasize 13 

## now is that the technical and economic issues raised 14 

## by the proposal can only be considered on a product 15 

## by product basis. With that introduction I would 16 

## like to turn to some HPBA's central concerns with 17 

## respect to the proposed rule. 18 

## First the proposed rule is not directed at 19 

## the issue of appliance efficiency nor is it designed 20 

## to address standby mode energy consumption which as 21 

## defined by USC Section 629 Subsection 41 is energy 22 

## consumption that "cannot be switched off orNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## influenced by the user". Instead the proposed rule 2 

## is aimed solely at consumer behavior the presumed 3 

## tendency of consumers to leave pilot lights burning 4 

## unnecessarily. 5 

## It isn't clear that DOE has the authority 6 

## to regulate consumer behavior as an energy efficiency 7 

## issue and it certainly doesn't have the ability to do 8 

## so by sweeping a variety of different products 9 

## together in a single covered product category to be 10 

## regulated without any regard to the utility or 11 

## function because consumer behavior is the issue, two 12 

## of the specific "problems" that the rule is intended 13 

## to address do not even exist. In particular DOE's 14 

## review under Executive Orders 12866 and 13563 states 15 

## that the proposed rule is necessary because a "lack 16 

## of consumer information and difficulties in analyzing 17 

## relevant information" caused consumers to miss 18 

## opportunities to invest in more efficient products. 19 

## Similarly DOE suggests that misaligned incentives 20 

## between purchasers and users also result in failures 21 

## to invest in more efficient products. 22 

## In fact however, no investment in moreNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## efficient products is required because consumers 2 

## already have the ability to turn their pilot lights 3 

## on and off as appropriate. DOE's only concern is 4 

## that they might not do so. As a result we have a 5 

## proposed rule that is designed not to make products 6 

## more efficient, but to take control of pilot light 7 

## operation completely out of the hands of consumers. 8 

## Second DOE simply presumes the existence 9 

## and magnitude of the consumer behavior problem it 10 

## seeks to address. I say presumes because there are 11 

## no credible data demonstrating the existence and 12 

## magnitude of the problem that DOE seeks to address. 13 

## Instead the proposed rule is justified on the basis 14 

## of a one page article citing data concerning a small 15 

## number of gas fireplaces in service 20 years ago. 16 

## DOE simply assumes without any data -- DOE 17 

## simply assumes without any data that the data cited 18 

## in this article are relevant to the fireplaces that 19 

## will be on the market five years in the future. Even 20 

## more remarkably DOE assumes that these cited data are 21 

## somehow relevant to completely different types of 22 

## products such as patio heaters which it should goNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## without saying they are not. 2 

## In this regard DOE has completely failed 3 

## to consider material differences in the ease of pilot 4 

## light control, a factor that the article it relies on 5 

## specifically identifies as important. There was a 6 

## time when pilot lights could only be operated on 7 

## hands and knees with a flashlight and screw driver, 8 

## but the prevalence of such products has declined 9 

## dramatically in the face of industry innovation and 10 

## consumer demand for more user friendly pilot light 11 

## controls. 12 

## Products with standing pilot lights are 13 

## increasingly being equipped with features such as 14 

## simple knob and push button controls and remote 15 

## controls that allow consumers to turn pilot lights on 16 

## or off with the touch of a button. The proposed rule 17 

## does not even consider the impact that such controls 18 

## have on consumer behavior nor does it consider the 19 

## changes in consumer attitudes that have been driving 20 

## increased demand for user-friendly pilot light 21 

## controls. Consumers only seek such controls because 22 

## they intend to use them.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Third, the proposed rule assumes that the 2 

## problem with consumer behavior can only be modified 3 

## by a federal design requirement completely 4 

## eliminating the consumer's ability to control pilot 5 

## light use. There is no basis for such an assumption 6 

## because consumers have a direct financial incentive 7 

## to avoid unnecessary energy consumption and the 8 

## products currently available give them the ability to 9 

## respond to that incentive without any need to accept 10 

## increased product costs or decrease product 11 

## performance because benefits can be obtained without 12 

## sacrifice there is no reason to assume that consumer 13 

## education would not be sufficient to induce consumers 14 

## to act in their own economic interest. 15 

## The message is a simple one and requires 16 

## easily prompted action. After all the products at 17 

## issue don't work all but forgotten in closets or 18 

## basement corners, instead they are prominently 19 

## located in frequently occupied areas such as living 20 

## rooms and family rooms where a burning pilot light 21 

## provides a visible reminder of its presence every 22 

## evening when the lights are turned off.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Others in the industry will speak more to 2 

## other issues but suffice it to say that HPBA has many 3 

## significant concerns about the proposed rule and the 4 

## regulatory analysis that have produced it. As a 5 

## result I am pleased that we are finally having an 6 

## opportunity to discuss the issues and information 7 

## relevant to the concerns that DOE seeks to address 8 

## and my hope is that we can now begin to have the kind 9 

## of dialogue required to address these concerns in a 10 

## constructive way. 11 

## Thank you very much and I look forward to 12 

## the rest of today's discussion. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay any additional 14 

## comments too at the outset, yes Mike please. 15 

## MR. CALDARENA: Good morning my name is 16 

## Michael Caldarena. I am Vice-President of the 17 

## Regulatory and Technical Services with the National 18 

## Propane Gas Association. NPGA is the national trade 19 

## association representing the U.S. propane industry. 20 

## Our membership includes about 2800 companies in all 21 

## 50 states about 2300 of those companies are retail 22 

## propane marketers who deliver the fuel to the end useNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## customer including those customers who use hearth 2 

## products. 3 

## Our members also are engaged in the 4 

## production and wholesale of propane equipment and 5 

## manufacturers and distributors of propane gas 6 

## appliances and equipment as well. NPGA believes that 7 

## DOE has issued this NOPR without observance of its 8 

## own rulemaking procedures and without pre-proposal 9 

## outreach and dialogue required by executive orders. 10 

## Due to this the proposed rule we believe and the 11 

## regulatory analysis, including the technical support 12 

## document cannot support the issuance of a final rule 13 

## at this time. 14 

## We therefore urge that DOE withdraw the 15 

## proposed rule and treat this NOPR as a request for 16 

## information. It should also clarify the potential 17 

## scope of the rulemaking and make additional 18 

## information and documentation available for review 19 

## and comment. In light of this DOE also should 20 

## suspend the April 10th deadline for public comment. 21 

## NPGA also urges that DOE eliminate 22 

## coverage of propane fueled products from this or anyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## other related rulemaking to the extent that DOE 2 

## conducts rulemaking it should limit its hearth 3 

## product definition to natural gas fueled products and 4 

## clarify that its proposed energy conservation 5 

## standard should not apply to the propane fueled 6 

## products. 7 

## In this regard DOE appears to recognize 8 

## that its proposed standard cannot be justified for 9 

## propane fueled products with its discussion on page 10 

## 7101 of the NOPR where DOE acknowledges that propane 11 

## is a "relatively expensive fuel". In addition 12 

## propane is supplied for household use in cylinders or 13 

## tanks of limited size or capacity. So as DOE 14 

## recognizes in light of the discussion with regard to 15 

## consumer behavior, consumers with propane products 16 

## closely monitor their pilot light operation, hence 17 

## there's no reason to presume that propane fueled 18 

## products would be left with their pilot lights 19 

## burning unnecessarily. 20 

## If DOE includes propane fueled products in 21 

## the proposed hearth product definition the proposed 22 

## energy conservation standard would apply to them andNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## subject these products to a completely unjustified 2 

## regulatory burden. We intend to submit more 3 

## substantive written comments by the comment deadline 4 

## we thank you for your time. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, please 6 

## Peter? 7 

## MR. DIRCKS: Good morning my name is Peter 8 

## Dircks, I'm Vice President of Marketing of Hearth & 9 

## Home Technologies. We are headquartered in 10 

## Lakeville, Minnesota and the market leader in the 11 

## manufacture of wood, pellet and gas burning 12 

## fireplaces, stoves and inserts. Our well-known 13 

## brands include Heatilator, Heat and Glow, Quadrifire, 14 

## Harmon and Pelpro. We employ over 1200 member owners 15 

## and have manufacturing plants and distribution 16 

## centers in Iowa, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Washington, 17 

## North Carolina, California and Maryland. 18 

## At HHT we believe in the importance of 19 

## continuous improvement of our products for both our 20 

## end consumers and the environment and are proud of 21 

## our industry leading efforts in the areas of both 22 

## safety and innovation. On behalf of HHT we have theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## following concerns about the proposed rule. 2 

## First we seek further clarification around 3 

## DOE's analyses that current energy consumption by the 4 

## products proposed to be covered by the NOPR meet 5 

## EPCA's jurisdictional threshold both for product 6 

## consumption per household in a 12 month period as 7 

## well as for the aggregate energy use within the 8 

## United States in a 12 month period. 9 

## Secondly we seek further clarification 10 

## around the scope of the proposed rule and there's 11 

## really three sections of this, first is delineating 12 

## the definition of hearth product to a reasonable 13 

## range of products, clarifying the narrative 14 

## description of the intended scope of this proposed 15 

## definition as well as eliminating coverage of 16 

## specific products entirely such as outdoor products, 17 

## propane fueled products and products that by 18 

## definition lack pilot ignition systems all together. 19 

## And then thirdly we object to the proposed 20 

## energy conservation standard calling for a 21 

## prescriptive design requirement that would completely 22 

## disallow the use of a standing pilot and standby modeNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## as defined in the NOPR as we believe it would have 2 

## the effect of a lessening competition within the 3 

## hearth product by reducing consumer choice for hearth 4 

## products of the kind that would still provide 5 

## substantially all of the reported energy savings from 6 

## the proposed prescription while providing significant 7 

## product utility that would be lost under the proposed 8 

## prescription. 9 

## And then secondly it would also eliminate 10 

## future potential designs and applications where the 11 

## use of a pilot in standby mode would be essential to 12 

## those designs or applications but could still be 13 

## designed to achieve substantially all of the 14 

## purported energy savings claimed by the NOPR. So we 15 

## at HHT also respectfully request that the proposed 16 

## rule be withdrawn, that the NOPR be treated as a 17 

## request for information and that DOE provide the 18 

## clarification information and documentation necessary 19 

## to facilitate comment and that the April 10, 2015 20 

## deadline for submission of comment be extended 21 

## pending clarification of the information and the 22 

## issues to be addressed here today. Thank you veryNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## much. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you yes, I don't 3 

## believe I got your name the first time. 4 

## MR. DIRCKS: Sure I'm Peter Dircks Vice 5 

## President of Marketing at Hearth and Home 6 

## Technologies. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you and I was 8 

## referring to the gentleman next to you there, Peter 9 

## thanks for being complete that was good, your name 10 

## please? 11 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Good morning I am Rett 14 

## Rasmussen, President of Rasmussen Iron Works, Inc., 15 

## also known as Rasmussen Gas, Logs and Grills. We are 16 

## a five generation family business founded in 1907. 17 

## We have been manufacturing gas logs since 1958, 18 

## infrared gas grills since 2000 and distributing 19 

## radiant patio heaters since 2011. 20 

## There is no monolithic hearth product. 21 

## The similarity between the products and our industry 22 

## start and end with their consumption of gas lumpingNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## them together is ambiguous, overbroad and unworkable 2 

## as a definition. We submitted comments on this 3 

## definition last year. Why didn't DOE give us an 4 

## improved definition to comment on in this NOPR? 5 

## Gas logs are also not a monolithic 6 

## product. There are countless variations in the sizes 7 

## of wood burning fire places with differences in the 8 

## front width, rear width, depth, opening height, gas 9 

## line location, number of openings and all 10 

## combinations of these different factors. Gas log 11 

## sets are retrofit appliances to this vast variety of 12 

## fireplace sizes, restrictions and combinations. 13 

## If there were a one size fits all gas log 14 

## set my life would be much easier but there is no such 15 

## solution. Accordingly gas log sets are designed to 16 

## meet the market for these vast number of 17 

## combinations. Some manufacturers focus on the sweet 18 

## spot of sizes, 18 inch to 30 inch widths, but 19 

## Rasmussen is a specialty manufacturer, offers 20 

## standard solutions of up to 96 inches and custom 21 

## solutions for large and unusual fireplaces with a 22 

## variety of safety control systems.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Adding an electronic ignition system which 2 

## I will refer to as an EIS to a gas log set presents a 3 

## very challenging proposition. It is not as easy as 4 

## merely replacing the safety pilot control valve as 5 

## the NOPR suggests. EIS components are greater in 6 

## number, valve control module, wiring, battery pack 7 

## for transformer and greater in size that that for a 8 

## standing pilot. 9 

## Gas long sets are not constructed as part 10 

## of an entire enclosure like gas fireplaces. Gas long 11 

## manufacturers do not have the voids in the sides or 12 

## under the floor of the fireplace in which to hide the 13 

## EIS components. Accordingly unless the installation 14 

## is part of a new construction or an extensive remodel 15 

## both of which are very small proportions of the gas 16 

## log sales and the components can therefore be 17 

## installed outside of but adjacent to the fire box, 18 

## the EIS components must be installed in the fire box 19 

## along with the gas log set. 20 

## Unfortunately EIS components are also more 21 

## heat sensitive than those of standing pilot systems 22 

## further complicating the location of componentsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## issue. If not located properly the components could 2 

## become damaged from the heat, potentially creating a 3 

## safety hazard. A further issue with EIS is that they 4 

## require outside power to operate. Since it is highly 5 

## unusual for a wood burning fireplace to have a 120 6 

## volt receptacle installed inside of it, batteries 7 

## must be used to power the functions of the EIS. 8 

## Unfortunately batteries are also very heat 9 

## sensitive, discharging at temperatures below that 10 

## which adversely affect the EIS components. Again it 11 

## is very challenging to include these large components 12 

## while maintaining the aesthetically pleasing 13 

## decorative effect of gas logs. This NOPR would 14 

## severely reduce our ability to provide solutions for 15 

## 36 inch and large gas log set sizes. The EIS 16 

## controls are the least developed systems in the 17 

## hearth industry. 18 

## Battery powered electronic ignition 19 

## systems with variable flame height remote control, a 20 

## feature many people desire is only available with a 21 

## gas capacity that allows for the use in 30 inch and 22 

## smaller set sizes. Currently for these larger setsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## there is only one safety control solution for 2 

## installation inside the firebox and that is with a 3 

## millivolt safety standard pilot system. 4 

## The only EIS solution is furnace controls 5 

## that must be installed outside of the fire box and 6 

## require 120 volt electricity. They are only 7 

## available with on/off control, no remote flame 8 

## modulation. My quest for over a dozen years and 9 

## every conversation I have with gas control 10 

## manufacturers is that they product a high BTU 11 

## capacity battery powered electronic ignition system 12 

## with variable flame height remote control but they 13 

## have always told me that they just don't anticipate 14 

## sufficient sales volume to warrant their extensive 15 

## costs of design, testing, certification, tooling, 16 

## marketing and other costs. 17 

## You see gas log manufacturers only have 18 

## available to us safety control systems that have been 19 

## made for other products or industries of greater 20 

## sales volume but unfortunately lesser BTU flow than 21 

## what our larger fireplaces need for gas log sets. 22 

## Accordingly eliminating the millable safety controlNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## will severely lessen the utility of my products for 2 

## larger fireplaces, limiting them to match lighted 3 

## natural gas, extensive remodels and new construction 4 

## all of which would result in the virtual elimination 5 

## of this category for my company. 6 

## I do not see in the TSD that has taken 7 

## into account the cost of annually replacing batteries 8 

## over the life of the gas log set which greatly 9 

## reduces the economic benefit of switching to 10 

## electronic ignition. DOE has determined that 90 11 

## manufacturers would be impacted and that 66 of these 12 

## are U.S. based small businesses, less than 500 13 

## employees. 14 

## I know of only two large manufacturers in 15 

## this industry, those greater than 500 and only one of 16 

## which is U.S. based. Who are these other 22 large 17 

## businesses? The hearth products industry is a small 18 

## family business industry including not just the 19 

## manufacturers but the distributors and retailers who 20 

## sell their products to the consumer. 21 

## This NOPR strikes at the heart of free 22 

## enterprise which DOE admits on page 7115, table V.8Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## it projects up to a 58% decrease in production 2 

## workers as a result of the standard, ouch, how about 3 

## we cut out 58% of DOE's workers and contractors might 4 

## have evince a bit of empathy from DOE on the impact 5 

## of this proposal? 6 

## I also agree with the NOPR on page 7116 7 

## which states that the manufacturer product cost for 8 

## gas log sets are likely to see a greater increase 9 

## than for other products resulting in declining 10 

## consumer demand and negative impacts on gas log 11 

## manufacturer profitability. 12 

## I also agree with the NOPR on page 7125 13 

## that larger manufacturers will have a competitive 14 

## advantage due to their size and that this proposed 15 

## standard would have a significant impact on a 16 

## substantial number of small businesses. A dealer of 17 

## mine in Michigan wanted me to be sure to read this to 18 

## you. Rett please let Washington know that in the 19 

## northern states the pilot which costs about $3.00 a 20 

## month to run actually keeps the cold air and moisture 21 

## out of the fireplace box. 22 

## Without a standing pilot the fireplace isNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## allowed to get cold and the cold actually travels 2 

## through the glass or screen and makes the room cold. 3 

## The furnace kicks on fully which uses up any savings 4 

## from not running the pilot. Also animals and insects 5 

## nest in the flus and venting which creates a 6 

## potential hazard for fire and carbon monoxide backup 7 

## with the blockage. This could potentially hurt or 8 

## kill people and cause damage to property. Pilots 9 

## reduce the chance of this occurring. 10 

## Lastly gas log sets are an excellent 11 

## source of emergency warmth in the case of a power 12 

## outage in areas where electric heat pumps are the 13 

## primary source of heat consumers would be cold and 14 

## dark during ice storms and hurricanes that knock out 15 

## power lines except for their gas log sets. 16 

## Bill from Maryland wrote to me "our power 17 

## was knocked out yesterday evening by Hurricane Sandy 18 

## and we used our Rasmussen unit to stay warm and even 19 

## do a little cooking. It was a big help to have the 20 

## unit which didn't need electricity to operate. No so 21 

## for many if this NOPR is adopted. 22 

## This proposed rule will have negativeNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## impact on the safety, wellbeing and choice of 2 

## consumers as well as the financial and employment 3 

## health of many small businesses. I respectfully 4 

## request that gas log sets be excluded from a final 5 

## rule. Thank you for the opportunity to present. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. Other 7 

## comments here at the outset, yes please and your name 8 

## again please? 9 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz from the Robert 10 

## H. Peterson Company. I am Leslie Bortz, I am the 11 

## President of the R. H. Peterson Company. Peterson is 12 

## one of the larger manufacturers of gas logs in the 13 

## United States we employee approximately 235 people at 14 

## our manufacturing facility in California. 15 

## Can you hear? 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 17 

## MR. BORTZ: We sell our products through a 18 

## network of small specialty distribution businesses 19 

## across the country. We also manufacture other 20 

## products that would be affected by the proposed 21 

## rulemaking including gas barbeques, outdoor 22 

## fireplaces and pits and to a lesser extent otherNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## hearth products. 2 

## Although our volume is a significant 3 

## portion of the gas log industry, we are still a 4 

## relatively small business which will be profoundly 5 

## affected by DOE's proposals. I have traveled here 6 

## today to speak to you again in the hope that the 7 

## Department of Energy would listen and re-evaluate its 8 

## overbroad proposal that would treat gas logs like all 9 

## other hearth products despite the acknowledged 10 

## differences between gas logs and those other hearth 11 

## products that would make the proposed rule 12 

## particularly burdensome to the gas log industry. 13 

## Peterson opposes DOE's proposed definition 14 

## of hearth products making gas logs a covered product 15 

## under EPCA. Peterson also opposed the proposed 16 

## regulation of hearth products to ban what DOE calls 17 

## constant burning pilot lights. First the definition 18 

## of hearth products is over broad. Currently there is 19 

## not a statutory definition of hearth products however 20 

## there is a proposed definition which states hearth 21 

## products means a gas fired appliance that simulates a 22 

## solid fuel fireplace or presents a flame pattern forNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## aesthetics or other purpose and that may provide 2 

## space heating directly to the space in which it is 3 

## installed. 4 

## Do you really intent to adopt the 5 

## definition of hearth products which does not include 6 

## wood burning fireplaces, coal burning fireplaces, 7 

## alcohol burning fireplaces, pellet burning 8 

## fireplaces, electric fireplaces, water, coal stoves, 9 

## these are all normally considered hearth products but 10 

## your definition does include gas ovens, gas cooking 11 

## ovens, outdoor gas lights, outdoor barbeques, 12 

## infrared heaters, garage heaters, and indoor gas 13 

## lights. 14 

## DOE's definition is unnecessarily 15 

## confusing because it mixes products designed to 16 

## provide heat with those designed only for aesthetics. 17 

## The DOE definition would include a variety of 18 

## products which serve very different purposes 19 

## including gas log sets and other decorative products 20 

## within the definition of a covered product, is not 21 

## consistent with EPCA's purpose. When you examine 22 

## EPCA's original product categories they are allNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## products designed to use energy to deliver functional 2 

## purposes to the consumers. 3 

## Decorative products are designed instead 4 

## for aesthetic experience. Next topic DOE is 5 

## designing different products into one category. At 6 

## several points in its analysis DOE concedes that gas 7 

## log sets are very different from other types of 8 

## hearth products. Gas log sets must be installed in 9 

## an existing solid fuel typically word burning masonry 10 

## or factory built fireplace. 11 

## As DOE acknowledges the gas log set 12 

## manufacturer is not able to change the physical 13 

## environment in which the gas log must operate. Gas 14 

## logs also don't have an outside enclosure within 15 

## which to hide the components that DOE assumes would 16 

## replace standing pilots. The cumulative effect of 17 

## these differences is that gas log sets will face 18 

## severe challenges in complying with DOE's proposed 19 

## rules that will not be present for many other types 20 

## of hearth products. 21 

## Unlike other types of hearth products 22 

## intermittent ignition is still a relatively new andNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## infrequently used device to be able to be added to a 2 

## gas log set. For vented gas logs DOE estimates that 3 

## only 6% currently use intermittent products. The 4 

## reason for this low percentage is that it is 5 

## difficult to do, expensive to do under any scenario 6 

## and anything that adds to the cost of the products 7 

## which are at the lower end of the hearth products 8 

## market like gas logs has a disproportionate adverse 9 

## impact on sales of gas logs. 10 

## It's difficult to add intermittent 11 

## ignition system to gas log sets because anything that 12 

## can make the gas log sits off center within the 13 

## fireplace which interferes with the aesthetic 14 

## experience of the consumer. If batteries are 15 

## necessary it detracts from the appearance. 16 

## In addition DOE agrees that adding 17 

## sensitive electronic components within the industry, 18 

## within the masonry or factory build fireplace where 19 

## they are subject to high heat is often impossible. 20 

## There are also many varieties of masonry or factory 21 

## build fireplaces into which gas logs must adapt. The 22 

## entire market for gas logs is to retrofitNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## pre-existing masonry or factory built fireplaces. 2 

## Anything like DOE's proposed rule which 3 

## sharply limits the flexibility of gas log sets 4 

## unnecessarily makes installation of gas log sets 5 

## impossible in a significant portion of the available 6 

## masonry or factory built fireplace. To accommodate 7 

## this market we sell 20 different types of burners 8 

## with 10 -- 12 different sizes, 600 different log sets 9 

## and another several thousand add on options. 10 

## In the fact of this broad range of 11 

## installation requirements DOE is attempting to impose 12 

## a one size fits all solution which will severely 13 

## restrict consumer choice. In addition DOE has 14 

## significantly underestimated the cost of switching 15 

## from constant burning pilot lights to the 16 

## alternative. 17 

## DOE would increase the MSRP price of a 18 

## typical base log set not including installation these 19 

## are our numbers, from $511.00 to $891.00 I would 20 

## chart this. A roughly 75% increase. In turn there 21 

## would be little financial savings to the consumer for 22 

## change in pilot lights. As always the consumer canNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## simply choose to extinguish the pilot light when the 2 

## log set is not in use thereby achieving all of the 3 

## savings without any of the costs. 4 

## By the way there are gas companies all 5 

## over the south especially that seem to be educating 6 

## their consumers about doing this. Finally, all the 7 

## intermittent pilots options have a higher 8 

## installation cost than the constant burning standing 9 

## pilot. Every intermittent pilot option is more 10 

## expensive to install. Also if the unit could not use 11 

## a battery powered millivolt system an electrician 12 

## must also be hired to install a 110 volt suitable 13 

## electrical hookup in or near the fireplace which is 14 

## not designed to hold the electrical components. 15 

## In response to question 14 based on our 16 

## experience we conservatively estimate that the 17 

## additional cost of the electrical hookup alone is 18 

## $335.00. At these costs given the limited energy 19 

## savings the additional costs to the consumer is more 20 

## than the three times value of the first year's energy 21 

## savings. Actually it's nearly 8 times the value of 22 

## the energy savings which violates the so-called EPCANotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## rebuttable presumption. 2 

## Based on prices of today using a constant 3 

## burning pilot light equipped with one of our actually 4 

## equipped with BTU's that you speak of for gas logs, 5 

## it costs the consumer less than $50.00 a year to 6 

## operate the pilot year round, that is compared to 7 

## $335.00 and the extra cost. DOE supposedly, our 8 

## national energy partner is using natural gas prices 9 

## from 1993 to 2012 to overstate the gas costs of 10 

## manual safety pilots. 11 

## Surely DOE understands that the world is 12 

## changed forever and gas reserves are expanding 13 

## rapidly. 14 

## Last week Morning Star the respected 15 

## financial analyst described the following natural gas 16 

## prices as the new normal for the United States. 17 

## Examining the impact of abundant low cost supply we 18 

## are reducing our estimate for natural gas prices by 19 

## 25%. Residential natural gas prices are now less 20 

## than 90 cents a therm and falling fast. 21 

## Rather than the much higher numbers in 22 

## parts of DOE's chosen period used for setting prices.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## By the time this rule takes effect in 2021 DOE's 2 

## analysis will be even more unrealistic. DOE 3 

## understands fully that taking the price of a product 4 

## and increasing it by roughly 75% will drive down 5 

## sales. DOE admits that this financial burden will 6 

## fall disproportionately on gas log manufacturers, 7 

## that's page 7116 of your NOPR. 8 

## Because gas logs are a product designed to 9 

## go into existing fireplaces, consumers will simply 10 

## stop buying and just continue to use wood in their 11 

## existing wood burning fireplaces. Sales of gas logs 12 

## will necessarily plummet. 13 

## My next topic is rulemaking. The 14 

## rulemaking will adversely affect small businesses. 15 

## Under the Regulatory Flexibility Act DOE must 16 

## consider the impact of its rulemaking on small 17 

## business. DOE has identified 66 businesses in its 18 

## rulemaking that are small business manufacturers of 19 

## gas logs. 20 

## That's better because we started with I 21 

## think 16. DOE is ignoring the impacts on hundreds 22 

## and possibly thousands of other small businessNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## entities that will be adversely affected. The entire 2 

## gas log industry and the vast majority of hearth 3 

## industry are composed of small businesses. Anything 4 

## that makes gas log sets less attractive to purchase 5 

## will have an impact on hundreds or thousands of small 6 

## businesses. 7 

## I acknowledge that DOE believes that it 8 

## only needs to focus on manufacturers for purposes of 9 

## the Regulatory Flexibility Act Analysis, we will 10 

## outline in our written comments why we disagree with 11 

## that limitation. In any event, however, even if it 12 

## is not required by the Regulatory Flexibility Act, 13 

## the impact on these additional small businesses is 14 

## undeniable. Nothing prohibits DOE from considering 15 

## that impact, even if it is not required to consider 16 

## the impact. 17 

## Even if you limit the search for business 18 

## entities in the hearth industry to manufacturers 19 

## DOE's list is far too small. It is easy to pick up 20 

## any month's edition of Hearth and Home Magazine, 21 

## trade magazine, and find many additional small 22 

## businesses that are not on DOE's list that areNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## manufacturers in this industry. I found 20 2 

## additional manufacturers with ads in the March 2015 3 

## Hearth and Home Magazine. 4 

## I looked at another -- actually I looked 5 

## at an internet site called Woodland Direct and found 6 

## another 18 additional small business manufacturers, 7 

## almost all making outdoor fireplaces. These are 8 

## numbers that just blow me away. DOE identifies key 9 

## market participants, the manufacturers, wholesalers 10 

## and the entities into two types of distribution 11 

## channels. 12 

## 100% of our gas log products are sold 13 

## through a distribution retailer marketing system or 14 

## what is commonly called a two-step distribution 15 

## system. If you look at your information and take a 16 

## look at those products and break them up as best you 17 

## can which we did, on a conservative basis 56 l/2% of 18 

## the hearth products in the DOE proposals are sold in 19 

## this system. 20 

## They are not sold to builders, 56 l/2% are 21 

## sold through distribution and retailing. For gas log 22 

## sets these key market participants are almost allNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## small businesses. I anticipate that there are over 2 

## 150 small business manufacturers, another 200 3 

## specialty hearth product distributors and 4 

## representative companies, hundreds of retailers 5 

## throughout the country and as the gentleman from NPGA 6 

## mentioned, 2800 LP companies, I believe there are 7 

## thousands of small companies that will be affected by 8 

## this rule, not 66. 9 

## DOE has not cooperated with the industry. 10 

## At every step in this process DOE has had and ignored 11 

## numerous opportunities to sit down with the hearth 12 

## products industry and develop more accurate 13 

## information. DOE did attempt to gather some 14 

## information from the hearth products industry, excuse 15 

## me -- and for its part in the analysis Navigant was 16 

## reasonable responsive. 17 

## But DOE's other contractors would not 18 

## cooperate with the hearth industry and particularly 19 

## we tried several times to contact Lawrence Berkeley 20 

## National Labs by the way we did not know that they 21 

## were a part of this until we were told last summer 22 

## and the representatives from that entity whichNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## performed important analysis -- important parts of 2 

## the analysis for DOE. They refused to return our 3 

## numerous telephone calls or emails or provide any 4 

## information about the process. 5 

## I don't know where they got their 6 

## information. DOE has ignored other technical options 7 

## in large part because of the lack of communication 8 

## with the industry DOE seems unaware that there are 9 

## products on the market that would address many of its 10 

## concerns. These products are pilot lights with a 11 

## so-called time out option, this is a constant burning 12 

## pilot light that is designed to shut itself off after 13 

## a specific period of time in the event the main 14 

## burner is not activated. 15 

## A time out pilot would address 98 to 99% 16 

## of DOE's energy savings. DOE's proposals will 17 

## actually cause consumers to use excess natural gas. 18 

## Presently the most common manual pilot light that we 19 

## sell allows the consumer to adjust the flame on the 20 

## log set and people want adjustable. This enables the 21 

## consumer to decide to use the log sets with different 22 

## flame heights depending upon the consumer's choiceNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## for the aesthetic experience. There are some 2 

## significant gas savings from giving consumers the 3 

## ability to turn down the log sets rather than forcing 4 

## the consumer to run the gas log set at the maximum 5 

## possible BTU usage. 6 

## DOE's proposal will force many consumers 7 

## to run their logs at the maximum BTU usage even if 8 

## they otherwise would prefer not to. This is because 9 

## many battery powered intermittent ignition systems do 10 

## not allow for varying the size of the flame. The 11 

## intermittent system that DOE would require is a 12 

## binary on and off which forces the consumer to run 13 

## the gas log set at the maximum usage. 14 

## DOE's proposal will cause consumers to 15 

## waste considerable gas that they would otherwise not 16 

## and wipe out the limited savings. 17 

## There are limitations to the use of 18 

## intermittent pilots particularly with gas log sets. 19 

## We have tried to offer a battery powered intermittent 20 

## pilot capable of variable log flame height control. 21 

## It has not worked in the market so far. Last year 22 

## for example we added a battery powered intermittentNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## pilot capable of an adjustable log flame control to a 2 

## particular gas log product. We shipped many of these 3 

## units in 2014 a significant number of these units 4 

## came back to us because the intermittent pilots would 5 

## not work well within the confines that must be 6 

## addressed by gas log sets. 7 

## For this reason as DOE has acknowledged on 8 

## page 7103 intermittent pilots are an infrequently 9 

## used device added to a gas log set installation. 10 

## Where intermittent pilots are easier to install and a 11 

## hearth appliance such as a free-standing fireplace or 12 

## fireplace insert where the housing for the fireplace 13 

## can protect the intermittent pilot and also limit its 14 

## adverse aesthetic impact, intermittent pilots are a 15 

## growing part of the market and now save 50% of the 16 

## units sold. This kind of market penetration for 17 

## intermittent pilots is simply not happening for gas 18 

## log sets because of their physical limitation. 19 

## In addition the market penetration for 20 

## intermittent pilots is not happening for gas log sets 21 

## because the cost implication of adding intermittent 22 

## pilots is felt more strongly for gas log sets becauseNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## they have a lower initial price. DOE's forcing 2 

## consumers to add an expensive device that they really 3 

## have rejected so far only 6% of vented gas log sets 4 

## have an intermittent pilot. 5 

## The consumer faced with paying the 6 

## additional money to purchase a gas log set with an 7 

## intermittent pilot often will choose to simply fall 8 

## back and use its existing wood burning fire place as 9 

## it was originally designed with wood burning fires. 10 

## DOE is ignoring trends. In 2011 DOE 11 

## estimated that 75% of gas log users kept their pilots 12 

## on year round. In 2013 DOE estimated that 25% of 13 

## hearth products users kept their pilots on year 14 

## round. In the current proposal DOE estimates that 15 

## 20% of the standing pilot users leave their pilot 16 

## ignited year round. As evidenced by DOE's own 17 

## estimates the percentage of users leaving their 18 

## pilots on year round is declining. 19 

## In the current proposal DOE estimates that 20 

## a far greater percentage of users 40% leave the 21 

## standing pilot ignited only seasonally during the 22 

## months when they are more likely to have a reason toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## use the gas log set. 2 

## DOE acknowledges that the industry now 3 

## uses labelling to suggest users extinguish their 4 

## pilot kits when the log set is not in use. Our 5 

## systems are designed to make extinguishing the 6 

## standing pilot and closing the gas valve at the end 7 

## of the season if not more frequently, this is easy to 8 

## do. We also provide clear instructions for how to 9 

## reignite the pilot after the consumer has 10 

## extinguished it. It is clear from DOE's estimates 11 

## that consumers are responding to the industry's 12 

## labeling efforts. 13 

## DOE says labelling is not achieving the 14 

## maximum economically justified energy savings but 15 

## that conclusion is only supported by ignoring the 16 

## growing success of labeling inflating the costs of 17 

## gas usage, artificially under-estimating the cost of 18 

## intermittent pilots for gas log sets. 19 

## Recommending that consumers operate their 20 

## units in this manner would be a far more cost 21 

## effective solution than charging a seasonal user 22 

## $380.00 extra to save them less than $13.00 worth ofNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## natural gas. DOE's overstated the energy savings in 2 

## its proposed rulemaking. This product will be 3 

## addressed by other witnesses. To avoid repetition I 4 

## will not focus on it any longer except to say that 5 

## the actual energy savings from DOE's proposal may in 6 

## fact be negative. 7 

## As DOE's own programs recognizes houses 8 

## with gas log sets are more whole home efficient than 9 

## the whole homes with the product with which they 10 

## compete which is wood and wood burning fireplace or 11 

## wax logs and wood burning fireplaces. 12 

## For many years the DOE has supported the 13 

## transition from consumers burning wood in their wood 14 

## burning fireplaces to instead using natural gas based 15 

## products. DOE recognizes that houses with gas log 16 

## sets and decorative fireplaces are more efficient 17 

## than those with wood burning fireplaces. 18 

## When a consumer has a wood burning fire 19 

## they consume more BTU's per hour, wood takes three 20 

## times the amount of oxygen, heat and home air to burn 21 

## to achieve the same aesthetic appeal. In addition 22 

## consumers will leave the flue fully open over nightNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## following a wood burning fire, allowing the home to 2 

## vent heated indoor air to the outside. In contrast 3 

## gas logs and decorative fireplaces are instant on 4 

## instant off the flue does not stay fully open beyond 5 

## the period of usage. 6 

## In order to show more substantial energy 7 

## savings for the cost of upgrading to an intermittent 8 

## pilot, DOE also assumed that gas log sets would last 9 

## approximately 16 years. In our experience the 10 

## consumer who uses his gas log sets regularly will 11 

## replace them in 10 years. DOE estimates that 80% of 12 

## the consumers either turn their manual pilot units 13 

## off after each use, 40% or use the pilot seasonally, 14 

## another 40%. 15 

## This makes it unlikely that the average 16 

## consumer will ever recover the cost of the expensive 17 

## upgrade DOE is trying to force on unwilling 18 

## consumers. DOE uses the wrong housing measures to 19 

## estimate the energy saving, therefore overstating 20 

## those savings from its proposal. DOE's process for 21 

## estimating the energy savings is unduly complicated 22 

## but it is under any analysis unable to assess theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## actual energy impact of prohibiting standing pilots. 2 

## To begin with DOE is using housing starts 3 

## with its analysis. We believe it should be using 4 

## housing completions, that is what is used by Bureau 5 

## of Census I suspect whatever. For many years there's 6 

## been a significant difference between housing starts 7 

## and housing completions. If you use housing 8 

## completions the numbers are smaller and all of the 9 

## energy savings in turn become smaller. 10 

## For gas log sets its wrong to use either 11 

## for housing starts or housing completion. A tiny 12 

## percentage of our sales go into new construction. 13 

## Gas logs are a retrofit product. Sales do not 14 

## correlate with housing starts at all. If you are 15 

## going to try to do an analysis using housing starts 16 

## or completions you also need to focus on single 17 

## family homes. 18 

## Housing start data that uses multi-family 19 

## construction ignores the reality that very few 20 

## multi-family dwellings will have suitable masonry, 21 

## fireplaces or factory built openings for gas log 22 

## sets. That's just a fact. When DOE does itsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## analysis it begins with a level of housing starts 2 

## starting in 2014 it uses a figure of approximately 3 

## 1.25 million housing starts for 2014. 4 

## That number is roughly double the number 5 

## of single family housing completions in this country 6 

## last year. Then DOE projects outward to a distance 7 

## future using a typical level of housing starts of 1 8 

## million five. If you look at the level of housing 9 

## starts for single family homes cited by James Houck 10 

## in his article in Hearth and Home Magazine, there are 11 

## only isolated years in the last 40 where the U.S. has 12 

## it a level of 1.5 million housing starts in a given 13 

## year and that level has never continued for more than 14 

## a few years in a row. 15 

## DOE's analysis assumes that we reach that 16 

## level and sustain it for 30 consecutive years. These 17 

## factors combine to overstate the purported energy 18 

## savings. 19 

## DOE is ignoring a safety issue with its proposal. A 20 

## safety pilot kit uses a constant burning standing 21 

## pilot as a safety device. The pilot device will 22 

## block the flow of gas to the burner as a safetyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## mechanism is the pilot is not lit. 2 

## The pilot we sell prevents the homeowner 3 

## from turning on an unlit system and filling the home 4 

## with gas. Gas log sets are safer than their 5 

## alternative which is wood burning fireplaces. 6 

## Anything that discourages consumers from switching to 7 

## gas logs will only increase the number of home fires, 8 

## injuries and death. Gas logs are far safer than 9 

## their alternative which is burning wood in the 10 

## fireplace. 11 

## With respect to gas logs, DOE's proposal 12 

## will hurt the environment. Gas log sets are also far 13 

## cleaner from an environmental prospective than the 14 

## product they are replacing. As USEPA has recognized 15 

## in its burn-wise program, consumers would be well 16 

## advised to shift from wood burning fires to gas log 17 

## sets in terms of an overall reduction in critical air 18 

## pollutants. 19 

## In its analysis DOE is assuming there is 20 

## some environmental benefit from limiting gas log 21 

## sets. To the contrary, anything which discourages 22 

## people from making the transition to gas log setsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## from wood burning fires will have an immediate and 2 

## major negative impact on the environment. 3 

## Many state environmental agencies and 4 

## other environmental and health groups like the NRDC 5 

## and American Lung Association have adopted the same 6 

## environmental position endorsed by U.S. EPA favoring 7 

## the transition to gas log sets. For example the 8 

## leading air quality agents in the country in charge 9 

## of improving air quality in the difficult Los Angeles 10 

## region has what it calls healthy hearth program. As 11 

## part of that program to improve public health, the 12 

## South Coast Air Quality Management District actually 13 

## pays consumers to change their wood burning 14 

## fireplaces and use gas log sets. 15 

## The agency adopted this position after 16 

## extensive rulemaking examining health and 17 

## environmental benefits of this transition to gas log 18 

## sets, using the analysis done by the very experts 19 

## cited by DOE and its NOPR Jim Hauck who will testify 20 

## here today. 21 

## DOE simply assuming a non-existent 22 

## environmental benefit in its analysis and ignored theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## considerable environmental detriment that will come 2 

## about by making a gas log set three times as 3 

## expensive as they are now. When properly account for 4 

## the net environmental impact of the rule is negative 5 

## as applied to gas log sets and would trigger 6 

## requirements that DOE would evaluate the rule under 7 

## the National Environmental Policy Act. 8 

## Conclusion, natural gas is plentiful in 9 

## the United States. Natural gas reserves are higher 10 

## now than they have been any time in our history. 11 

## Natural gas prices are dropping each year as we find 12 

## more sources for natural gas at a rate that exceeds 13 

## consumption. In addition natural gas is a local fuel 14 

## with virtually all of the United States natural gas 15 

## consumption coming from sources within North America 16 

## in exchange for modest energy savings of a very 17 

## plentiful resource DOE's rulemaking would sharply 18 

## limit consumer's ability to afford gas log sets. 19 

## Based on our customer feedback, customers 20 

## like gas log sets because they look great but they 21 

## don't heat a room. If they want heat they buy a 22 

## different product. They also like the improved airNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## quality, improved health, lack of allergens, instant 2 

## on/off, no creosote build-up in the chimney, no 3 

## chimney fires, no sparks, ashes, relative in expense 4 

## to purchase and operate, cleaner operation, improved 5 

## safety, save trees and flexibility of use. The 6 

## proposed rule will interfere with these 7 

## characteristics by making the units prohibitively 8 

## expensive or too unattractive to replace the wood 9 

## burning fire. 10 

## Gas logs represent by far the lowest cost 11 

## alternative for consumers tired of the inefficiency 12 

## and pollution of their wood burning fireplace. DOE's 13 

## proposal would rob consumers of that low cost choice, 14 

## providing no offsetting financial benefit because of 15 

## the gas savings if any from the proposed rule. 16 

## As it applies to gas log set, DOE's 17 

## proposal does not achieve greater energy savings 18 

## because homes with gas logs in terms of whole home 19 

## efficiency are more efficient than the alternative. 20 

## Because the savings from the pilot restriction is 21 

## trivial it would be offset by the significant cost 22 

## that would be created by eliminating or discouragingNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## customers from switching from wood burning fireplaces 2 

## to gas logs. 3 

## The proposed rule would also undermine 4 

## consumer alternatives because it would limit severely 5 

## the number of available products on the market, 6 

## particularly for customers looking for low cost 7 

## alternatives to wood burning fireplaces. The 8 

## proposed rule only adds restrictions and 9 

## manufacturing burdens which would have dramatic and 10 

## negative impact on the gas log industry. 11 

## Thank you for allowing me to go through 12 

## that. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: I would like to present Jim 15 

## Houck is he on your speaking -- 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We are taking opening 17 

## remarks, hopefully summary remarks and do you -- can 18 

## you make a brief summary remark here or will it fit 19 

## in the content in the presentation materials that are 20 

## coming, Jim? 21 

## MR. HOUCK: I can make it short. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay briefly here, justNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## stand right up and use that microphone right there. 2 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes my name is James Houck. 3 

## Okay now can you hear me? 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 5 

## MR. HOUCK: Okay my name is James Houck. 6 

## I am an independent consultant. I worked for about 7 

## 25 years with the hearth industry, primarily on air 8 

## pollution and environmental issues and I guess my 9 

## short opening remark is that the rule as proposed 10 

## will do environmental damage rather than as quoted in 11 

## the proposed rule, in addition the proposed hearth 12 

## product standard would have significant environmental 13 

## benefits. It will not and I will discuss that in 14 

## more detail when we get to the environmental section. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you that's helpful 16 

## and let me note, maybe I wasn't clear at the outset. 17 

## No one wants to diminish your capacity to comment in 18 

## any way here. We are hoping though and it's 19 

## typically beneficial to get more detailed comments 20 

## during the course of the review of the packet itself, 21 

## that way all of these features line up in the record 22 

## you understanding my meaning here.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## So now let me ask additional opening 2 

## remarks perhaps final opening remarks before we move 3 

## on to the content at hand? Yes is it Steve? 4 

## MR. SKOLNICK: It is Steve and I'm going 5 

## to be very, very short since I don't have prepared 6 

## remarks to read. I represent in addition to my own 7 

## company the mid-Atlantic Hearth Product Association 8 

## the local retailers and distributors and 9 

## manufacturers reps. We have about 800 small 10 

## businesses that we represent. We are very concerned 11 

## that you are not addressing the differences between 12 

## these products and just as you look between 13 

## discussions from HHT on their products and gas logs 14 

## there is a lot of differences just in the electronic 15 

## ignition so how electronic ignition works in a gas 16 

## fireplace is dramatically different than how it works 17 

## in a gas log versus outdoor so lumping these products 18 

## together are very concerning. 19 

## Also in a gas fireplace the electronic 20 

## ignition has challenges so while there are 21 

## differences in the challenges as you look through 22 

## each of the product categories challenges still existNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## so in a gas fireplace or a direct vent fireplace, the 2 

## challenge primarily exists in cold climate so the 3 

## standing pilot while it has electronic ignition in 4 

## many of the applications, it also has that backup 5 

## standing pilot and the backup standing pilot is very 6 

## important in cold climate because the flue gets cold, 7 

## everything just doesn't work right if there isn't 8 

## that heat in that cold climate providing the 9 

## environment in the fireplace. 10 

## The other thing we are very concerned 11 

## about is that with your proposed rule we believe a 12 

## lot of the product in the marketplace will be 13 

## eliminated and many of our small businesses will 14 

## suffer dramatically thank you. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Are we ready to 16 

## move on now? Move on to the content at hand? Given 17 

## the detail and length of these opening remarks I am 18 

## hoping that as we go through these slides you can 19 

## apply the same level of specificity in your comments 20 

## to the Department as we are going along here, okay? 21 

## That would be helpful. So then let's proceed with 22 

## the packet and we are going to have an overview firstNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## commencing with regulatory authority. Yes, Leslie? 2 

## Please take -- feel free to take your jacket off, 3 

## everybody make yourselves comfortable we are going to 4 

## be here for a while. 5 

## Dana you didn't get a chance to introduce yourself, 6 

## do you wish to do so, turn that microphone on, name 7 

## and organizational affiliation? 8 

## MR. MOROZ: My name is Dana Moroz I 9 

## represent Wolfe Steel Limited. I'm a foreign 10 

## national I understand. I would also point out that 11 

## we also have a manufacturing facility in Quinton, 12 

## Kentucky. We employ 96 U.S. citizens at that 13 

## facility so we are domestic as well. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you and I'm sorry for 15 

## the run around here this morning. 16 

## MR. MOROZ: It's nothing like being made 17 

## to feel special. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then we are going 19 

## to begin with the regulatory authority and this is on 20 

## slide number 10 in my packet here. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so this is John 22 

## Cymbalsky from DOE. Thank you everyone for ourNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## opening remarks, we definitely heard from you and I 2 

## think we can as Doug said pretty much map your 3 

## opening remarks to the particular slides but as we go 4 

## through it again if you can briefly again comment 5 

## when we get there that would be great. 6 

## So regulatory authority -- so as the slide 7 

## says EPCA of 1975 established the energy conservation 8 

## program for consumer products other than automobiles 9 

## so that is the program at hand here today that 10 

## granted DOE the authority to classify additional 11 

## types of consumer products as covered products, 12 

## there's the site to the statute. 13 

## And we can prescribe energy conservation 14 

## standards for those products if certain statutory 15 

## criteria are met and for those who read the proposed 16 

## coverage determination, DOE spelled out its calculus 17 

## there in terms of energy consumption and the mapping 18 

## to the statutory authority to cover hearth products. 19 

## EISA came along and required that any 20 

## final rule establishing or revising energy 21 

## conservation standards for a covered product must 22 

## incorporate standby mode and off mode energy use intoNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## a single amended or a new standard and you could see 2 

## this site there. 3 

## As I mentioned DOE published a proposed 4 

## determination of coverage for hearth products on 5 

## December 31, 2013 there's the site to the Federal 6 

## Register. DOE used the definition for hearth product 7 

## as proposed in the notice of proposed determination 8 

## to define the scope for the notice of proposed 9 

## rulemaking that we are discussing here today and 10 

## there are currently no energy conservation standards 11 

## or test procedures for hearth products. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Steve Rosenstock? 13 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 14 

## Electric Institute. I think it is important to talk 15 

## about the process because for many years after the 16 

## Process Improvement Rule was created by the 17 

## Department of Energy in 1996 for a long time every 18 

## product went through a process of having a framework 19 

## document with a public meeting and public input. 20 

## There's advanced notice of notice of 21 

## proposed rulemaking now also called the preliminary 22 

## analysis with notice and then public meeting and thenNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## time for stakeholder input then the NOPR the proposed 2 

## rule with obviously seeking public input and then the 3 

## final rule, it was a four step process. Things have 4 

## changed over the last years where products that have 5 

## been regulated before we can you know a lot of times 6 

## the framework was skipped because you know it has 7 

## been done before. But I think that it seems like now 8 

## things have really been -- I guess it was starting 9 

## with the refrigerator proposed rule last December 10 

## that things have been I'll use the word streamlined 11 

## -- especially with a product that there have never 12 

## been regulations before to go from termination of 13 

## coverage all the way to proposed rule without those 14 

## intermediate steps for entities that have never been 15 

## regulated before. 16 

## I think in my view or again just speaking 17 

## of process I'm wondering if this is going a little 18 

## bit too far too fast. Again I'm saying this just as 19 

## a process geek. I've been involved with this process 20 

## for many, many years and especially to streamline the 21 

## process for a product that's never been regulated 22 

## before I think there are significant issues, thankNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## you. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Dana? Turn the 3 

## microphone on thank you. 4 

## MR. MOROZ: I just wanted to comment on 5 

## that statement that I think is a little erroneous it 6 

## says that there is currently no energy conservations 7 

## standards or test procedures. I believe that test 8 

## standard to which fireplaces at least have fireplace 9 

## heaters are subjected to and the harmonized standards 10 

## do address efficiencies. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a citation? 12 

## MR. MOROZ: Not with me no, it would be NC 13 

## 2188. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That's an industry 15 

## standard. I'm sorry I should be more specific, 16 

## there's no federal U.S. test procedure that you must 17 

## comply to. You may comply to your industry standard. 18 

## MR. MOROZ: Okay. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thanks for raising 20 

## that. Frank Stanonik? 21 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI and 22 

## I'm going to join my process geek friend over hereNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## and raise a procedural issue specifically with regard 2 

## to the undetermined definition of hearth product. In 3 

## fact when DOE came out with the proposed 4 

## determination it specifically stated in the federal 5 

## register notice and I am quoting here "if after 6 

## public comments DOE issues a final determination of 7 

## coverage for this type of product, DOE will consider 8 

## both test procedures and energy conservation 9 

## standards for all hearth products." 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: And Frank what is that 11 

## source? 12 

## MR. STANONIK: That would be the federal 13 

## register December 31, 2013 page 79639. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for that. 15 

## MR. STANONIK: And the point is that the 16 

## time that DOE came out with that proposal the 17 

## presentation to all stakeholders and interests were 18 

## that this issue of standards and test procedures for 19 

## whatever hearth products were determined to be 20 

## wouldn't occur until in fact the determination 21 

## rulemaking was completed and in this case DOE has 22 

## stepped back from that process. We think that is aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## significant error and in fact is causing many people 2 

## to spend a lot of time that may or may not have been 3 

## required including the people doing the analysis if 4 

## there had been a final determination of what a hearth 5 

## product is and one final point on that is that as 6 

## presently proposed and we don't agree with the 7 

## definition that proposed definition does include 8 

## unvented products and in fact there is a DOE test 9 

## procedure on the books for unvented heaters. 10 

## And you can call an unvented gas, or 11 

## whatever you want to call it but it is undoubtedly a 12 

## heating product, unavoidable. They are unvented 13 

## heaters they have always been considered unvented 14 

## heaters and there is a DOE test procedure for 15 

## unvented heaters. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay Dana you had a follow 17 

## up? 18 

## MR. MOROZ: I just in response to John 19 

## mentioned that there was no federal test procedure 20 

## the standard I referred to with said 2188 is an ANSI 21 

## standard which I believe is a national standard. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah okay thank you.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. MOROZ: I'm sorry that was my foreign 2 

## national. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We are familiar with 2188, 4 

## yes please Sue? 5 

## MS. WALKER: Yes just to follow up very, 6 

## very, very briefly on Frank Stanonik's comment regard 7 

## vent free gas products and their inclusion in this 8 

## NOPR. And this is all regarding what is referred to 9 

## as a pallet but is in fact a very, very important 10 

## safety device called the oxygen detection safety 11 

## pallet or ODS and it's been required on these 12 

## products by ANSI standard since 1980. 13 

## All products on the market must be tested 14 

## and listed to this standard and this is the only 15 

## product in the U.S. market that incorporates this 16 

## important safety device. So to just call it a pallet 17 

## or standing pallet is a real mischaracterization 18 

## function of the product. It has a unique -- a 19 

## remarkable safety record. In the 34 years since the 20 

## product has been in the U.S. market the Consumer 21 

## Product Safety Commission confirms that there has 22 

## never been a documented death or carbon monoxideNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## poisoning attributed to a product using this 2 

## important device and also just briefly comment on the 3 

## standby heat -- emergency heat benefit of other 4 

## products, this is very, very important in the gas of 5 

## vent free gas products. 6 

## At this point almost no products on the 7 

## market require any electrical input to operate. They 8 

## are a primary resource to consumers during the event 9 

## of power outages whether brief or extended. In fact 10 

## one way you can tell that is right after a power 11 

## outage the sales of these products spike, people 12 

## basically say never again will I be in this 13 

## circumstance. 14 

## So to require the oxygen detection safety 15 

## pallet to somehow be contrived to have electrical 16 

## input and use batteries as backup would largely 17 

## defeat that very, very important consumer benefit. 18 

## One more brief point the controls from these products 19 

## are very visible, accessible, consumer friendly and 20 

## as others have pointed out you just can't miss it in 21 

## the room. 22 

## The people who buy these products are veryNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## focused on the energy savings so they are going to 2 

## extinguish that pallet during periods of extended 3 

## non-use or at the end of a season. I think that 4 

## factor alone mischaracterizes these products in terms 5 

## of this NOPR thank you. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, additional 7 

## comments here? Yes please go to the microphone and 8 

## make sure it is turned on. 9 

## MS. DAVIDSON-HOOD: I just wanted to -- 10 

## I'm too short for this. Caroline Davidson-Hood from 11 

## AHRI -- I just wanted to raise a procedural issue 12 

## tacking on to what Frank mentioned before that the 13 

## fact that the determination has not yet been 14 

## finalized renders I think a problem under the 15 

## American -- the APA, the Administered Procedures Act 16 

## because you have no statutory authority for this 17 

## rulemaking and it probably raises potential due 18 

## process issues so I definitely think that the 19 

## determination needs to be finalized before a 20 

## rulemaking can be undertaken on products that are not 21 

## even included in the statute yet, thank you. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay so back toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## John Cymbalsky. 2 

## MR. CARROLL: Ryan Carroll with HBPA. 3 

## Procedurally I would like to also say that we have 4 

## been frustrated to some extent in the process because 5 

## we have had over the course of the last 18 months or 6 

## so a number of requests one in writing to our 7 

## comments on the proposed coverage of determination. 8 

## We have had attorney to attorney contact 9 

## seeking meetings as well and you know we are exciting 10 

## to be here for dialogue but it has been a rough road 11 

## to get there. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. Let's 13 

## proceed with the content and I think back to John 14 

## Cymbalsky. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay thank you Doug. This 16 

## slide shows the criteria for selecting standards 17 

## levels so EPCA directs DOE to consider to the 18 

## greatest extent practicable the following 7 factors 19 

## in determining whether potential energy conservation 20 

## standards are economically justified. 21 

## We refer to these as EPCA 7 factors and 22 

## you can read them here. I think Leslie did a goodNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## job pretty much in his opening remarks going through 2 

## each and every one of these but -- and you could see 3 

## that there are things like the impact on consumer 4 

## utility or performance and lifetime operating costs, 5 

## the impact on both consumers and manufacturers so we 6 

## are going to go through all these here in the slide 7 

## packet one by one pretty much and so we will be able 8 

## to comment as we go through these factors. 9 

## Okay and here's a slide I think we have 10 

## heard a lot about already and we will give you a 11 

## chance to again comment upon. So here is the 12 

## proposed definition of hearth product and I'm going 13 

## to read it for you. A gas fired appliance that 14 

## simulates a solid wood fuel fireplace or presents a 15 

## flame pattern for aesthetics or other purpose and 16 

## that may provide space heating directly to the space 17 

## in which it is installed and so here's our first 18 

## comment box. 19 

## We have heard a lot of comment already but 20 

## if anyone else would like to comment on the proposed 21 

## definition here's your chance. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: It would be helpful whetherNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## now or in your written comments, it is especially 2 

## instructive to be able to say what it should be, not 3 

## what you don't like about it okay so yes, over here 4 

## to is it Barton? 5 

## MR. DAY: Following directions diligently 6 

## I'll start by saying we can't offer any suggestion as 7 

## to what it should be for two reasons. One is we 8 

## still don't know what it is intended to cover and 9 

## until we figure that out there's no point in pursing 10 

## language. 11 

## The second issue is that we just don't 12 

## think DOE has the legal authority to take completely 13 

## different products and bundle them together as a 14 

## single product. I mean 15 

## Congress didn't go in the statute and say you know 16 

## HVAC products are a covered product they said well 17 

## room heaters are a covered product and furnaces are a 18 

## covered product and water heaters are a covered 19 

## product. 20 

## DOE's proposal sweeps together products 21 

## that are far more different than those examples and 22 

## treats it all as a covered product and in the processNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## essentially renders the limitation on their authority 2 

## to impose standards irrelevant. Congress had a no 3 

## Twinkie rule it said that there has to be an 4 

## aggregate annual energy use of a certain level of a 5 

## product for it to be worthy of a regulation in the 6 

## first place. There are products covered in this 7 

## rulemaking that I think pretty clearly would never 8 

## meet that test and the fact that all of these 9 

## products are being combined together willy nilly has 10 

## the effect of aggregating the gas consumption of 11 

## different products in order to avoid the need to 12 

## justify regulating them individually. 13 

## I think that's not lawful but you know 14 

## we've got a number of legal issues and concerns. 15 

## What I would like to do is see if we can get some 16 

## clarity on the proposed definition and there are a 17 

## couple of issues I would like to raise in that 18 

## respect. One is just looking at the language. There 19 

## are a lot of disjunctions in here and if you look at 20 

## it -- it is a gas fired appliance that simulates a 21 

## solid fuel fireplace or presents a flame pattern 22 

## okay.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## So you could pretty much cross out that 2 

## simulates a solid fuel fireplace because it's not 3 

## particularly meaningful. I mean it's that or 4 

## presents a flame pattern for aesthetics or other 5 

## purpose seems to mean any purpose so where are we 6 

## now? We have a gas fired appliance that presents a 7 

## flame pattern for any purpose and it may or 8 

## presumably may not provide space heating directly to 9 

## the space in which it is installed so that whole 10 

## clause is in parts no meaning. 11 

## So we are looking at a definition that 12 

## says a hearth product is a gas fired appliance that 13 

## presents a flame pattern for any purpose. And then 14 

## we see the TSD we wouldn't have guessed this from 15 

## looking at the proposed rule but in the TSD there are 16 

## specific references to patio you know, ready and 17 

## patio heaters that don't have a visible flame. 18 

## In plain English that doesn't present a 19 

## flame pattern, it has a flame so I guess we have to 20 

## read the definition as a gas fired appliance that 21 

## produces a flame for any purpose. That covers 22 

## everything under the sun, I mean it covers kitchenNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## stoves and ovens, it covers gas lights, it covers -- 2 

## there's just no way to look at that definition and 3 

## have any reasonable sense of what products we have to 4 

## address. 5 

## And so we have struggled with that all 6 

## along and John if we could could we go on to the next 7 

## slide because you have got some pictures here that I 8 

## think you know it's helpful to look at examples and 9 

## try to understand what it is we are talking about. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Before we move on I should 11 

## probably take some more comment on the definition. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yes Frank. 13 

## MR. STANONIK: Again we obviously are not 14 

## in agreement with the definition but as proposed it 15 

## is difficult for us to understand how that definition 16 

## leads to a determination that unvented or vent free 17 

## gas logs whichever you choose to call them would be 18 

## included in this definition and I will point out that 19 

## it says may provide space heating in fact for 20 

## unvented vent free products the emphasis that's 21 

## presented in this definition is exactly the opposite. 22 

## Those are heating products that may simulate a flameNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## pattern but they primarily are developed, sold in the 2 

## market as heating products. 3 

## The fact that people may want to pick that 4 

## particular type because it looks like a fire is a 5 

## secondary issue but you take a vent free gas log, 6 

## install it, even though it's not vented that room 7 

## will be heated and it will be heated quickly and 8 

## hotly if you will and so there's no may about it. 9 

## And so as we read that definition we could 10 

## not understand how that definition leads to a 11 

## conclusion that vent free gas logs wherever they are 12 

## installed are somehow included as a hearth product. 13 

## It's inconsistent. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear additional 15 

## comments on the definition. I am going to turn to 16 

## you in a moment Barton. Other comments before? Okay 17 

## keep going Barton. 18 

## MR. DAY: The other puzzling thing about 19 

## the definition is just you know we have got a rule 20 

## that's directed at pilot lights and the definition 21 

## covers and is apparently intended to cover and that's 22 

## why I wanted to go on to the examples, we have gotNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the radiant patio heaters, well they don't present 2 

## the kind of product -- they don't present the kind of 3 

## issue that DOE is concerned about, the possibility of 4 

## pilot lights being left on indefinitely. 5 

## The other thing I would say about that 6 

## type of product is they are not in any normal English 7 

## sense a hearth product so I don't -- two things to 8 

## conclude either the word hearth doesn't mean anything 9 

## either well I guess that's the only answer if those 10 

## products are in and then it does lead to the question 11 

## if they are in what else don't we know about because 12 

## again we wouldn't have guessed that they would be 13 

## involved in this. 14 

## I guess one of the points I wanted to 15 

## emphasis is why do we have products included in this 16 

## that don't have pilot lights? I mean there are whole 17 

## categories of products, match lit log sets, whole 18 

## categories of outdoor products. I mean there's a 19 

## vast you know, herd of products that operate on small 20 

## propane tanks. They can't possibly have their pilot 21 

## lights be left on indefinitely and produce the kind 22 

## of gas usage that you are concerned about.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Are they intended to be covered or not? I 2 

## guess with patio heaters the answer has got to be 3 

## yes. So we are stumped and it is an issue that we 4 

## literally particularly with the apparent inclusion of 5 

## patio heaters that are so different from anything 6 

## else, what else is covered? What else is intended to 7 

## be covered? I mean the whole language would cover 8 

## anything. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong? 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 11 

## I think what you see -- so I can appreciate the fact 12 

## that there is some confusion in the room. I think 13 

## what would be most helpful to the Department at this 14 

## point is suggestions. So what you see on the slide 15 

## examples of products currently on the market that we 16 

## feel meet our definition, our proposed definition of 17 

## hearth product. 18 

## Obviously this is not an exhaustive list, 19 

## it was not meant to be an exhaustive list of 20 

## pictures. Any product out there that would generally 21 

## speaking meet that definition on the last slide would 22 

## ultimately if we end up going forward with this andNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## finalizing be covered under the rule. So at this 2 

## point I think it's you know, Barton you listed some 3 

## examples of certain products you felt should or 4 

## shouldn't be on it and so I think what would be 5 

## helpful to us is how would you suggest that the 6 

## definition be changed and that's open to everyone. 7 

## But I think that's going to be and why, 8 

## that's more helpful to us than saying we don't 9 

## understand your definition. So I think that would 10 

## help us better understand your position and how it 11 

## compares to our definition going forward. 12 

## MR. DAY: We did put in, this is Barton 13 

## Day again, we did put in some suggestions on that and 14 

## I would you know I will go back just to the point 15 

## that we don't think it's legal to approach it this 16 

## way but let's put that aside because at least let's 17 

## figure out which products we are arguing about so 18 

## that we can have an intelligent conversation. 19 

## And for that purpose you know we have made 20 

## some suggestions. You have got a number of products 21 

## illustrated up there that are fireplaces. Fireplace 22 

## is a good plain English word, I think everybody knowsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## what a fireplace is so I would say if you want to 2 

## cover fireplaces say fireplaces. 3 

## You have got stoves, free standing gas 4 

## stoves up there, again good plain English, everybody 5 

## knows what that is. You have got an outdoor gas 6 

## fireplace presented there and plain English works 7 

## pretty well on that. You have got log sets -- I 8 

## think you have to identify the products because if 9 

## you use these general terms about presenting a flame 10 

## then you have the question of well why wouldn't that 11 

## cover gas lights? Why wouldn't that cover barbeque 12 

## grills? Why wouldn't it cover kitchen stoves? 13 

## And so I think you really you have to tell 14 

## us what products you are interested in rather than 15 

## having a broad definition that includes all kinds of 16 

## other things. And the other suggestions that we 17 

## have made are -- don't include products that aren't 18 

## relevant to what's animating this rule and I put 19 

## patio heaters in that category. They don't have 20 

## standing pilot lights that can be left on 21 

## indefinitely. They are just not relevant to this 22 

## discussion.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Most outdoor products, like fire tables 2 

## like that if you put a standing pilot light on that 3 

## it blows out I mean those products don't have 4 

## standing pilot lights, they are just not designed 5 

## that way. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So that's another criterion 7 

## standing pilot lights? 8 

## MR. DAY: Well you know you are asking me 9 

## to guess. The comments that we put in limit the 10 

## scope of the definition to the scope of the problem 11 

## that you are trying to address. That would in my 12 

## view leave out essentially all outdoor products, it 13 

## would leave out propane products, it would leave out 14 

## products like mass log sets that by definition don't 15 

## have standing pilot lights. There is just no reason 16 

## to have them included in a rule where there's no 17 

## potential for energy conservation benefits because of 18 

## the inherent nature of the product. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Jack first. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Hang on one second and 21 

## this is actually for Jack so perhaps he could answer 22 

## this as he also makes his comments. Your associationNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## broadly is HPBA hearth patio and barbeque so what 2 

## does hearth mean in your world? 3 

## MR. GOLDMAN: Well I would like to first 4 

## start by saying that we are being put in the position 5 

## of telling you what we think should be regulated when 6 

## it is your job to define what is being regulated. 7 

## You know, so we don't understand what you want to 8 

## cover and you are saying well we are not telling you 9 

## well so why don't you tell us? Why don't you do our 10 

## job for us? Okay 11 

## Hearth product -- excuse me, hearth 12 

## product is defined as the base, the bottom of a 13 

## fireplace. It's the stone or masonry bottom of a 14 

## fireplace only. 15 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE I would just 16 

## point out that this is not a rule -- the purpose of 17 

## the product is not to ban standing pilot lights to I 18 

## think you are looking at it from a wrong perspective 19 

## in terms of what the products are generally, the 20 

## standing pilot light is a technology that we are 21 

## looking at here. 22 

## MR. GOLDMAN: I'm not sure I understandNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## that one. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to keep up with 3 

## the que, Rett you are next. 4 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. Mr. 5 

## Suspect please tell me all of your transgressions so 6 

## I can properly charge you with all the crimes that 7 

## you should be charged with, that's what this is. And 8 

## I know this isn't a judicial proceeding but you know 9 

## this is the United States of America and you are just 10 

## you know saying hey tell us everything and with the 11 

## regard Mr. Stas to the standing pilot, this is your 12 

## gateway drug into regulating all of the industry here 13 

## and make sure you tell us everything you want to have 14 

## regulated. 15 

## Anything with a flame pattern well it 16 

## either has a decorative pattern or it doesn't have a 17 

## decorative pattern but that's a pattern if you do 18 

## that. It's such a broad definition the way you have 19 

## it there its kitchen sink. It's a fishing 20 

## expedition, it's ridiculous, it's a waste of time, 21 

## it's a waste of everybody's efforts, you folks need 22 

## to get down to business and you figure out what it isNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## that the issues are that you need to regulate on. I 2 

## mean I distribute radiant patio heaters, they are all 3 

## electronic ignition, they are the most efficient type 4 

## of burner systems you can get with infrared -- where 5 

## is the need for regulation? 6 

## Where is the you know, I'm just blown away 7 

## at what I consider to be just a lack of any type of 8 

## reasonableness in this and how things are done in 9 

## this country. I don't know about Canada but at least 10 

## in the United States that's how things are done here. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton do you want in here? 12 

## MR. DAY: Yeah, again I think the key here 13 

## and Ashley I think one of the things that you said 14 

## that is most troubling for us is well anything that 15 

## meets the definition will be covered and I can tell 16 

## you that I think by statute the only thing that's 17 

## covered is what you analyze and justify a standard 18 

## for. 19 

## And the problem is that you -- in the 20 

## analysis there's so many assumptions that everything 21 

## is the same and that all of these products have these 22 

## homogenized characteristics I mean yeah you putNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## outdoor and you average an outdoor fireplace with a 2 

## patio heater which is like averaging a ping pong ball 3 

## with a light pickup. They are completely different 4 

## and the average tells you absolutely nothing and 5 

## again I think it's informative that from looking at 6 

## everything that was in the proposed rule in the NOPR 7 

## itself, we never would have guessed that radiant 8 

## patio heaters are in there if they hadn't been named 9 

## by name in the TSD and shipment numbers put together. 10 

## And so we wouldn't have even known to 11 

## comment, excuse me they don't have standing pilots. 12 

## Those products don't have standing pilots you 13 

## couldn't leave them on indefinitely if you wanted to 14 

## and they would be subject to this rule, they would be 15 

## subject to the paperwork requirements and everything 16 

## else and there's no way -- there is no way you can 17 

## justify the proposed standards for those products. 18 

## There's no way the standard could be 19 

## justified for match lit log sets and I understand 20 

## your point Eric that you are sort of viewing the 21 

## coverage determination as something separate but the 22 

## coverage determination can't be made without aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## rational explanation as to why you think the product 2 

## is worthy of regulating and what you are focused on 3 

## is regulating pilot light use. 4 

## And I don't see how you can rationally 5 

## include in the definition products that by definition 6 

## don't have pilot lights. Do you see what I am 7 

## saying? And again you know if we can't agree on what 8 

## it is that you think you should be regulating let's 9 

## at least agree on what you think you should be 10 

## regulating so that we can understand what products we 11 

## have to focus on and provide an explanation about. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie you are next, use 13 

## the microphone. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: I'm sorry Eric I think you 15 

## mentioned that this isn't only about pilot kits? 16 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas DOE I think the point 17 

## is when you are looking at the covered products it's 18 

## what do you see out in the market, in the real world, 19 

## that would be types of units that are out there. 20 

## It's the standing pilot is a technology that we are 21 

## looking as an option of improving energy savings. 22 

## MR. BORTZ: Right.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. STAS: So I think you're -- it doesn't 2 

## seem to fit this argument that you are sort of like 3 

## saying the product class is something with a standing 4 

## pilot light and that is sort of putting the cart 5 

## before the horse or what have you. 6 

## MR. BORTZ: I think that's what you are 7 

## doing, however let me ask you does that mean that a 8 

## barbeque is included in this? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So you would see the 10 

## definition so if it meets that definition. 11 

## MR. MOROZ: Does it? Does it? You are 12 

## the guy who makes the definition? Does it? 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We will take your comment 14 

## on that, thanks. 15 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI 16 

## specific to that point and barbeque I assume we are 17 

## talking about a gas grill. I'm not aware that any 18 

## gas grills are designed to provide any type of 19 

## specific flame pattern. It's in no way shape or 20 

## form, there's a flame but nobody spends time 21 

## designing it to make a flame pattern. 22 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: It depends on yourNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## definition of pattern. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: Well pattern in fact 3 

## suggests design and attempt to me but the point is 4 

## there is no way this definition should be inferred or 5 

## intended to cover a gas grill. 6 

## MR. BORTZ: Does it? 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie back to you keep 8 

## going. 9 

## MR. BORTZ: Well I asked the question does 10 

## it. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Ryan first, Ryan you 12 

## want in here? 13 

## MR. CARROLL: Yeah I was just going to say 14 

## the first part of this comment box DOE seeks comment 15 

## on the proposed definition and here we are asking 16 

## does this fit and we are being told well tell us 17 

## whether or not it fits. I mean when I hear -- what I 18 

## hear now is that definition sounds like it is set in 19 

## stone and I thought there was an opportunity to 20 

## comment which everybody here has about the way we did 21 

## in January at the end of the comment period as well. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It's definitely still overNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## definition you are welcome to comment but -- 2 

## MR. CARROLL: Then how can we tell you 3 

## what fits when that's so influx, if it is still 4 

## influx? 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Wait. 6 

## MR. STAS: You have seen the slide with 7 

## the photos of the general types of products that were 8 

## used as examples so perhaps you could help us craft a 9 

## better definition to capture that type of products, 10 

## maybe you think there's a better way to narrow it. 11 

## So I mean I think the people in this room can sort of 12 

## understand what we are trying to get at here I mean 13 

## without taking things to extremes. 14 

## MR. MOROZ: What are you trying to get at? 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on, that was Eric Stas 16 

## now Steve. 17 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 18 

## Electric Institute. You know I used to do stuff at 19 

## ASHRAE and ICC where we talk about definitions and 20 

## that's because it makes such a difference for those 21 

## codes. The way that it is written right now because 22 

## of the words or other purpose I am afraid to say thatNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## yes, barbeques would be covered because that is an 2 

## "other purpose" so would gas lights, they are "other 3 

## purpose" to provide illumination. 4 

## Again just the way the definition reads 5 

## right now because it says other purpose it could be 6 

## any gas product that is not covered, stoves and 7 

## ovens, residential are covered in other DOE 8 

## rulemakings but the way it is written right now it 9 

## could cover barbeques it could cover gas lights and 10 

## I'm sure there are other products that I am thinking 11 

## about. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm hoping as several 13 

## commenters have suggested that we can continue to 14 

## provide useful comment on what this definition might 15 

## be Barton you are next. 16 

## MR. DAY: The last comment is absolutely 17 

## correct. I mean as I parched the language you know 18 

## at the beginning of this discussion that definition 19 

## covers every gas appliance that produces a gas flame 20 

## for every purpose. Any purpose at all, so it covers 21 

## water heaters, it covers central furnaces it covers 22 

## every gas product that you have already regulated,Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## every gas product that you ever might regulate. It 2 

## is not a useable definition. 3 

## You can't make any kind of regulatory 4 

## determination without having an intended target. 5 

## Tell us what the intended targets are so that we at 6 

## least know what we have to comment on and you know 7 

## again you have given us examples okay, we can comment 8 

## on fireplaces we know you want to talk about 9 

## fireplaces, great, let's talk about fireplaces but we 10 

## can't talk about you know shipment numbers. 11 

## For some category if you are secretly 12 

## including gas lights in there and we have no idea. I 13 

## mean I would presume that you are not intending to 14 

## include central furnaces but you have never said so 15 

## so I assume you are not covering kitchen cooking 16 

## stoves. But the words of the definition include them 17 

## and that's the problem is that you know we need to 18 

## understand what and you need to tell us you know the 19 

## various places that you know you raise the question 20 

## of well what's you know -- how do we address the 21 

## intended products? 22 

## What are the intended products? We areNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## not intending you are intending and you need to tell 2 

## us what you are intending so that we have an 3 

## opportunity to comment. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rett 5 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen yes we 6 

## commented on this a year ago during the coverage 7 

## proposal and now it's the same question again without 8 

## any feedback, without any determination, without 9 

## anything from DOE so it's kind of all we can look at 10 

## it as is well you didn't give us the right answers we 11 

## are looking for so give us other answers. So that's 12 

## the frustration and we would like to see something 13 

## back from DOE other than thank you for your comments, 14 

## let's have a dialogue please. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. As 17 

## far as recommending a different or improved or 18 

## alternative definition I will indicate that in the 19 

## rulemaking that was conducted and mostly completed on 20 

## revising the standards for direct heating equipment 21 

## we at that time were on record indicating that DOE 22 

## should rely on and use the definition for variousNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## types of vented, I'll use the word advisedly hearth 2 

## products that are presented in the Z21 series of 3 

## standards. Now we are here today because in fact DOE 4 

## is intending to address a different set of products 5 

## that are not included as direct heating equipment 6 

## that is what that proposed determination is about and 7 

## that's what this rulemaking is about. 8 

## And if that is the case okay, to me it 9 

## further emphasizes that they should rely on the long 10 

## established recognized industry definitions for 11 

## various types of I'm going to use the word decorative 12 

## gas fired products that are in the Z21 series of 13 

## safety standards. The reason back in the other 14 

## rulemaking the direct heating rulemaking where at 15 

## least one of the reasons were the suggestion was not 16 

## accepted was some concern that by if you will, gaming 17 

## the definitions one might avoid regulation from 18 

## federal standards. 19 

## But if in fact this all goes through that 20 

## issue avoiding regulation will go away because they 21 

## will either be regulated as a vented heating -- or 22 

## I'm sorry as a piece of direct heating equipmentNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## which already exists or they will be regulated as 2 

## this new category of a new covered product whatever 3 

## it is going to be called. 4 

## So to me that really eliminates one of the 5 

## reasons not to use the industry definitions and if 6 

## you use the industry definitions we can get past this 7 

## point of -- well I will rephrase that. I believe it 8 

## will be much clearer as to what will be covered or 9 

## what is intended to be covered as opposed to as we 10 

## are getting back into discussing the same 11 

## conversation we had at the rulemaking on the proposed 12 

## determination rule. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Leslie? 14 

## MR. BORTZ: I believe right now there is 15 

## no standard or definition to these products. 16 

## Interestingly and I really don't know the answer to 17 

## this, I think I know the answer. Over the past few 18 

## years when there has been no standard I believe that 19 

## most products in the industry have become more 20 

## efficient without a standard. 21 

## More so than your standard would have 22 

## called for because your standard doesn't start forNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## several years. I think there are more heater 2 

## fireplaces than the numbers you gave in 2011 compared 3 

## to decorative fireplaces. I know our products use 4 

## less gas wherever we can and have Rett you have 5 

## products that you are losing less gas. The trend 6 

## toward making more efficient products has nothing to 7 

## do with the fact that you don't have a standard. 8 

## Is there anybody that would possibly like 9 

## to help me on this because -- 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I would like to finish out 11 

## this segment and then we are going to go and take a 12 

## break so as I see it we are now on the regulatory 13 

## approach slide 15 and I think we are hearing again 14 

## from John Cymbalsky. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay so we are on slide 15 16 

## as Doug said the regulatory approach so DOE 17 

## considered two options for energy conservation 18 

## standards for hearth products and so number one would 19 

## be a performance based standard so that would be 20 

## either an efficiency level or a standard for the 21 

## maximum energy allowed or a design which is a 22 

## prescriptive standard pursuant to the definition ofNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## energy conservation standard at 42 U.S.C. 6291(6). 2 

## DOE may establish either a performance 3 

## standard or a design standard for these products but 4 

## not both. So to assess these two options DOE 5 

## reviewed available technology options for performance 6 

## based standards and design standards, compared 7 

## options for reducing active and standby mode energy 8 

## consumption and considered these for all hearth 9 

## products meeting the proposed definition. 10 

## DOE concluded that a prescriptive design 11 

## requirement would be more effective than a 12 

## performance based requirement for the following 13 

## reasons. First of all there would be less burden on 14 

## manufacturers because testing for an efficiency 15 

## standard would not be required. There would be a 16 

## single requirement that would apply to all products 17 

## meeting the hearth product proposed definition and 18 

## that product classes are unnecessary because standing 19 

## pilot functionality components and energy use are 20 

## similar across all hearth products. 21 

## DOE notes that it did group different 22 

## product categories of hearth products commonly foundNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## in the market for use in this analysis of potential 2 

## performance standards, Barton? 3 

## MR. DAY: A couple of times there John you 4 

## said that you would consider all hearth products. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Your microphone. 6 

## MR. DAY: Oh sorry. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton Day. 8 

## MR. DAY: Yeah Barton Day again, John a 9 

## couple of times in your comments there you said that 10 

## DOE considered some fact or another for all products 11 

## meeting the definition. That presupposes of course 12 

## that you have some concept of what is covered by the 13 

## definition. That's what we are asking to hear, we 14 

## have been around and around on that and we are not 15 

## getting any kind of clarity as to what you 16 

## considered. I would suggest and a way to try and 17 

## make this meeting constructive would it at least be 18 

## possible to hear from DOE what products it considered 19 

## in coming up with its justification for the proposed 20 

## rule. 21 

## I mean you have shipment data, shipment 22 

## data for what exactly? You have average efficiencyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## numbers for what exactly? I mean that's what we need 2 

## to know we can't comment on anything -- how do you 3 

## comment on shipment numbers without knowing shipment 4 

## of what, energy consumption of what. If we can at 5 

## least cabin the discussion enough. 6 

## I want to end up with a constructive 7 

## discussion here and you can see how we are flapping 8 

## around. We don't want to just sit here and say well 9 

## we don't know because you won't tell us what products 10 

## and that's not going to be very helpful. You've -- 11 

## if you can articulate for us what products you looked 12 

## at in the regulatory analysis then at least we can 13 

## talk about that. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay I think this is a 15 

## good stopping point we will pick up on this but let 16 

## us take a few minutes to take a break. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah let's take a break we 18 

## are due for a break. It's now 5 minutes after 11. 19 

## We will resume in 15 minutes which means 20 minutes 20 

## after 11. Please make sure to wear your badge or 21 

## identification visible as you are walking around the 22 

## halls, there are restrooms at both ends of the hall.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## There's a coffee shop down on the ground floor you 2 

## can get both water and coffee there at Dunkin Donuts 3 

## and please don't leave the building or anything you 4 

## will have to come back through security to get back 5 

## in so we will resume here in this room at 11:20 and I 6 

## appreciate everybody being so clear about their 7 

## wants, needs and expectations. See you back here at 8 

## 11:20. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Please start taking your 10 

## seats we are going to resume. All set, okay we are 11 

## going to pick up where we left off and I guess we are 12 

## going to hear from Ashley Armstrong. Hey folks let's 13 

## settle down please. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And unfortunately Barton 15 

## is not here but I was going to go back to start 16 

## addressing some of the things he raised earlier. So 17 

## at break what I did was and granted I didn't have a 18 

## whole lot of time but I did go back and quickly look 19 

## at a couple of the comments that have been previously 20 

## received in response to the proposed definition that 21 

## was in the proposed coverage determination and 22 

## actually Barton in his comments earlier raised aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## couple of new points that hadn't previously been 2 

## provided and they give issue -- they provide I think 3 

## what I would call a pretty good foundation for DOE to 4 

## go back and at least reconsider some of the changes 5 

## that it would feel need to be made to the DOE -- to 6 

## the proposed definition of a hearth product to 7 

## address maybe some of the concerns. 8 

## But just to answer some of the questions 9 

## in terms of scope, what is the analysis based on 10 

## before we actually go forward and start talking about 11 

## the analysis. A while back when we kicked off this 12 

## effort one of the things that we did -- 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Excuse me Ashley a few 14 

## individuals have just joined us, we are just getting 15 

## going here, we are just getting started please Ashley 16 

## go ahead. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So a while back when we 18 

## first kicked off some of these efforts one of the 19 

## first things we did was reached out to HPBmA and we 20 

## asked you guys for shipments information. And so DOE 21 

## HPBA was kind enough to provide shipments information 22 

## which subsequently can be found in the docket but itNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## is for these categories. So it's for vented 2 

## fireplace, both inserts and stoves. It's for 3 

## unvented fireplaces, both inserts and stoves, it was 4 

## for log sets, both unvented and vented log sets and 5 

## it was for outdoor products with the exception of 6 

## patio heaters which were subsequently added in 7 

## shipments data provided. 8 

## So to answer your question directly Barton 9 

## we have data, all of these products for which the 10 

## analysis is based on going forward. So I think you 11 

## can generally see that DOE believe its definition was 12 

## encompassing of this scope. You were out of the room 13 

## when I started this but I think what you seeded 14 

## earlier was pretty helpful to DOE. 15 

## I went back at the break and looked at 16 

## some of the comments that were received on the 17 

## proposed definition in response to the coverage 18 

## determination and some of the things that you have 19 

## said today in pointing out some of the confusion in 20 

## our definition I think is more detailed than had been 21 

## previously submitted and it is very helpful so we 22 

## thank you for that.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## And in response to that I think DOE can 2 

## work with that going forward but this generally 3 

## speaking on the side is the entire coverage. So we 4 

## are hopeful that you will take this opportunity since 5 

## you have been seeking opportunities to work with the 6 

## Department and if you have specific comments about 7 

## how we can refine our definition, you will use this 8 

## as that opportunity to provide suggestions on how we 9 

## can revise the definition given this scope. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Please go to a microphone 11 

## say your name. 12 

## MS. FEINSTEIN: Hi I'm Rachel Feinstein 13 

## with the Hearth, Patio and Barbeque Association. I'm 14 

## looking at the data that we provided to DOE and for 15 

## outdoor products it was that was specified as factory 16 

## built outdoor gas fireplaces, not outdoor products in 17 

## general. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 19 

## MS. FEINSTEIN: It was specifically that 20 

## thank you. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thanks for clarifying, 22 

## Barton do you want in here?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DAY: Yeah Ashley thanks that's very 2 

## helpful. The picture still leaves some questions and 3 

## I think the one that we have had the most difficulty 4 

## trying to wrap our head around is outdoor products, 5 

## you know as indicated you know the data that you got 6 

## was you know related to built-in gas fireplaces. The 7 

## inclusion of patio heaters came as a real surprise 8 

## and sort of is a barn door thrown open and we just 9 

## have no idea you know what else may be -- what else 10 

## may be in there and again it's that outdoor category. 11 

## I mean what you have got shown in the 12 

## picture there looks like it's a built-in type of fire 13 

## table product, you know there are a lot of variations 14 

## on these that don't make any sense in this rule for 15 

## the same reason that I think the patio heaters don't 16 

## which is they just don't have pilot lights and so 17 

## they are not part of the issue that DOE is trying to 18 

## address. 19 

## The other categories again we don't agree 20 

## that they can all be lumped together but at least now 21 

## we can know what we are talking about so that helps 22 

## anything else that is not depicted there that we needNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## to worry about. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think what you will 3 

## hear when we move forward is that this is generally 4 

## the types of products that our analysis is based as 5 

## we step through and talk about the market intact, 6 

## some of the data we have collected, some of the 7 

## products that we purchased and we took apart and how 8 

## our analysis was based from the ground up was based 9 

## on this subset of products on the slide so generally 10 

## speaking we believed these were the subsets of 11 

## products that meet our proposed definition. 12 

## Obviously you know presents a flame 13 

## pattern to us that isn't anything that presents a 14 

## flame pattern, it is something that the consumer 15 

## would see a flame pattern, it is designed for that 16 

## flame pattern sorry you know, that's not a furnace, a 17 

## residential furnace. We will be talking about those 18 

## later this week. 19 

## Or that is not a water heater it was not a 20 

## residential cooking product that is otherwise 21 

## characterized. Those provide a different function. 22 

## This really was meant to be presented at least to usNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## present a clean pattern that that is what it's used 2 

## for that is what it was designed for so you know, 3 

## like I said we are open to any further suggestions 4 

## you may have on the definitions this is defined in 5 

## the scope and terms of what we analyze going forward 6 

## which I think will at least help you in concentrating 7 

## your comments for the rest of the days. 8 

## Some of the things that you have already 9 

## said, Barton I think were really helpful to us and 10 

## made us think a little further at break and go back 11 

## and look at some of the comments that were already 12 

## and talk about how we could further craft this to 13 

## help get rid of some of the ambiguity so we 14 

## appreciate you bringing those to our attention. 15 

## And that's the kind of constructive 16 

## feedback we are looking for throughout this process. 17 

## So we are hoping that is the way the rest of the day 18 

## will go. 19 

## MR. DAY: That's helpful thanks. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? Get that 21 

## microphone close. 22 

## MR. BORTZ: I came in in the middle soNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## maybe you answered but she isn't here. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead she can hear you. 3 

## MR. BORTZ: Do you intend to cover outdoor 4 

## gas lights as hearth products:? 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No so what you see here in 6 

## our analysis this is what we contemplated for the 7 

## definition. 8 

## MR. BORTZ: Do you intend to cover indoor 9 

## gas lights? Does that mean that that's what you are 10 

## going to do or does that mean that is what you 11 

## contemplate now? 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That is what at this point 13 

## this is Ashley from DOE that is what we propose to 14 

## do. Obviously our proposal is open for comment so if 15 

## you agree with that you can say you agree. If you 16 

## believe we should change course and include lights 17 

## you can also comment that way one way or the other. 18 

## Right now as you can see lights were not 19 

## expressly analyzed which means that's not something 20 

## DOE thought of as being in scope. 21 

## MR. BORTZ: Okay does that mean that you 22 

## will not regulate gas lights under this rule?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: I cannot say will not 2 

## until we finalize something that's the determination 3 

## of will and won't. At this time they are not 4 

## proposed to be in scope. It's still a proposal it's 5 

## still out for comment. Nothing is final until we 6 

## finish the proceeding. 7 

## MR. BROOMAN: Rett? 8 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. In 9 

## looking at the intent of your coverage as depicted by 10 

## those photos one of these things is not like the 11 

## other and that's the patio heater. That's commonly 12 

## referred to as a mushroom type heater of which that 13 

## is one variety. The other variety is an infrared 14 

## type installed heater and those do not have -- they 15 

## have more heating function than they have aesthetic 16 

## appeal with regard to any flame pattern. 17 

## Their flame pattern is one of nondescript 18 

## pattern if you wanted to describe any type of pattern 19 

## it is not the same aesthetic appeal that simulates a 20 

## wood fire and so I would recommend that patio heaters 21 

## be taken out of this intent of coverage, thank you. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you Rett, I justNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## want to point out that is exactly the feedback we are 2 

## looking for stated in that way, very helpful, well 3 

## addressed it's constructive so we can work with that 4 

## type of comment and you know go forward with that. 5 

## And if you say you agree with DOE not to analyze 6 

## lights,that's a constructive comment as well. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay Barton? 8 

## MR. DAY: Yeah just a quick definitional 9 

## point. It is the patio heaters that threw us because 10 

## we couldn't see how they could fit in under a 11 

## definition that said flame pattern. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I thought there were many 13 

## different things -- 14 

## MR. DAY: I thought flame pattern meant 15 

## what you explained a minute ago until we saw patio 16 

## heaters. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Are there many different 18 

## kinds of patio heaters? 19 

## MR. DAY: They are fairly generic they are 20 

## really suited to general types. 21 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Actually you could put 22 

## there is at least three different types, there isNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## also one that doesn't put as much heat but it is the 2 

## spinning tube type one where it has a flame effect 3 

## but people expect to have heat off, this is Rett. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you were you 5 

## finished Barton? Okay you were. I really appreciate 6 

## this last series of comments and the exchange that 7 

## was there. Do we have additional comments based on 8 

## these photographs about products and definitions, 9 

## Leslie? 10 

## MR. BORTZ: It looks like you are 11 

## intending to cover outdoor fireplaces. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley that is 13 

## correct. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: That is correct. How do you 15 

## intend -- what do you intend to consider? What's 16 

## going to be -- how are you going to -- I mean despite 17 

## what you say in your analysis that there are 18 

## extremely few outdoor fireplaces that have standing 19 

## pilots. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay so first I do want to 21 

## -- this is Ashley from DOE. So the definition of 22 

## as Eric pointed out earlier the definition and thenNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the proposed standards are really two separate things 2 

## for us. The presence of a standing pilot has nothing 3 

## to do with DOE's definition of scope. DOE was 4 

## defining the scope based on these characteristics of 5 

## products in a more broad term. 6 

## Obviously we have had a lot of discussion, 7 

## a very fruitful discussion and some suggestions about 8 

## how DOE could further potentially change that 9 

## definition to make it more clear. You know the 10 

## presence or absence of a pilot though has nothing to 11 

## do with whether products will or won't meet that 12 

## definition. The pilot is nowhere in that definition. 13 

## That isn't the coverage determination, 14 

## purely for defining what types of products are in in 15 

## terms of regulatory coverage for DOE to finalize its 16 

## coverage determination. 17 

## The second part of this and I think gets 18 

## to your question which I am going to say partially I 19 

## am going to answer throughout the day in terms of the 20 

## proposed standards you know the analysis we did for 21 

## standards is going to be presented through the rest 22 

## of the day. It starts all the way from the marketNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## assessment we did, what types of products we chose 2 

## from the market. We took apart how we costed those 3 

## and then downstream of that the economic analysis fed 4 

## into lifecycle and national benefits and costs. 5 

## So I am going to hold your question in 6 

## terms of what exactly we considered in terms of 7 

## certain attributes and how we did that for the rest 8 

## of the day but obviously if you see something 9 

## throughout the day for any certain product that you 10 

## have data or you feel is different you should comment 11 

## on it, that's what this is all about. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie keep going. 13 

## MR. BORTZ: That outdoor fireplaces have 14 

## -- you have in your statistics that 26% of outdoor 15 

## fireplaces have a standing pilot. That's just not 16 

## true. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We would look forward to 19 

## the number that you think it is so data definitely 20 

## will help . 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 22 

## MR. DAY: Just one quick one before we getNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## off the definitional point and that is that I 2 

## understand what you are saying about coverage but 3 

## there is going -- there's a separate definitional 4 

## issue as to the scope of the standard because you are 5 

## basically saying well we want the coverage 6 

## determination to cover products whether they have got 7 

## standing pilots or not but the standard really can't 8 

## be justified for products that don't have standing 9 

## pilot lights to begin with so we will just need to 10 

## pick that up later. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from 12 

## DOE. So you are absolutely right and our analysis 13 

## and all of our analysis there will be some fraction 14 

## of the market that is not impacted by our standards 15 

## and that usually means that they are at or above they 16 

## already meet our standards so our standard has no 17 

## impact on that percentage of the market and as we 18 

## march through today and we talk about shipments and 19 

## we talk about the distribution there will be some 20 

## fraction of the market that we are going to 21 

## acknowledge in these different categories that are 22 

## already shipped without a pilot thus would comply.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DAY: Just to clarify and I agree with 2 

## what you just said I mean there are products that 3 

## some have pilot lights some don't. There are some 4 

## categories of products that don't have standing pilot 5 

## lights at all and so there is no you know, there is 6 

## no justification for having them subject to the 7 

## standard. 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right so this is Ashley 9 

## from DOE so if there are certain products as we march 10 

## through today that could never have a standing pilot 11 

## you know we welcome that feedback and we believe they 12 

## shouldn't be subject to at least a pilot light, the 13 

## consideration of a pilot that's something that you 14 

## are more than welcome to provide comment on. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Are we ready to move on 16 

## now, I think we are ready to move to the market and 17 

## technology assessment yes. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So this slide just shows 19 

## you what we are all going to cover here in the next 20 

## few hours so. 21 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Good morning, I think it is 22 

## still morning. My name is Justin Elszasz. I'm aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## managing consultant with Navigant Consulting and I 2 

## will be presenting the market assessment as well as 3 

## our engineering analysis. So to start off the 4 

## purpose of the market assessment is to both 5 

## qualitatively and quantitatively you know give really 6 

## the big picture of the hearth market, the hearth 7 

## product market and again this is using the proposed 8 

## definition of hearth products. 9 

## So when we say we are characterizing the 10 

## hearth industry we are talking about gas fired 11 

## products. We used a couple of different resources in 12 

## order to tackle the market assessment. One is 13 

## through product literature review you know this is 14 

## product literature that is generally available on 15 

## line. Another is through confidential manufacturer 16 

## interviews and another key resource was trade 17 

## association data in this case from Hearth Patio and 18 

## Barbeque Association. 19 

## As mentioned by John earlier additional 20 

## technology options were considered by given the focus 21 

## of the rule on a prescriptive standby you know 22 

## standard the technology that is relevant to thisNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## assessment is obviously electronic ignition. 2 

## If I can change slides, okay. So the next 3 

## few slides are going to be the groups of products 4 

## that were analyzed as part of the hearth product 5 

## analysis going forward. So the first of these groups 6 

## again we saw these groups earlier on an earlier slide 7 

## during what John and Ashley were talking about. 8 

## The first of these groups was vented 9 

## fireplaces, inserts and stoves and that of course 10 

## includes both b-vent and direct vent styles. The 11 

## next in these groups is of course the unvented 12 

## variety so similar style products, fireplaces, 13 

## inserts and stoves but without the means for venting 14 

## byproducts of combustion outside of the building. 15 

## Unvented products both in this category as 16 

## well as unvented gas logs which we will see in a 17 

## moment of course include the oxygen depletion sensor. 18 

## The next group, these are the next two groups, vented 19 

## gas logs and unvented gas log oh I think Frank has a 20



## -- 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 22 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI. SinceNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## you have identified it here I am going to take the 2 

## opportunity to point out you do show that unvented 3 

## products do require an oxygen depletion sensor which 4 

## is in fact built-in to the pilot system and in the 5 

## previous slide DOE explained or it was explained that 6 

## product classes are necessary because standing pilot 7 

## functionality is similar across all hearth products 8 

## and again I'm only dealing with the definition as 9 

## proposed but in fact the pilot on an unvented product 10 

## has a very unique functionality that is not found in 11 

## any other types of vented I'm sorry, any other types 12 

## of hearth products as defined here and you have 13 

## identified it it's the ODS which is part of the pilot 14 

## system so I think that has been overlooked in terms 15 

## of how DOE has been approaching this requirement. 16 

## MR. ELSZASZ: I actually have a follow up 17 

## question to that. Is there a specific difference 18 

## between the standing safety pilot and an electronic 19 

## ignition in terms of functionality or safety? So in 20 

## other words would you know you mentioned that the 21 

## oxygen depletion sensor has a safety component to it, 22 

## you know we would look for feedback as to whether theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## electronic ignition system could sufficiently you 2 

## know supplant those functions I guess. 3 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI okay 4 

## I'm not sure I understood the question because when 5 

## you say electronic ignition system to me are you 6 

## talking about a system that would light a pilot and 7 

## then the pilot would be there operating as opposed to 8 

## electronic ignition systems which just will directly 9 

## ignite the main gas. 10 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Yes so primarily we are 11 

## concerned with intermittent pilot ignitions as I will 12 

## mention later we found that that was the predominant 13 

## style of electronic emission in the hearth product 14 

## market so I guess the question here is whether or not 15 

## an IPI system could satisfy the safety and 16 

## functionality that a standing pilot would for 17 

## unvented products. 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Okay I understand the 19 

## question we will try and get you an answer. 20 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Okay, thank you. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 22 

## MR. BORTZ: I don't -- I believe inNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## today's world that yes it could but it couldn't do so 2 

## as reliably and of course reliability is critical. 3 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Okay thank you. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Leslie. 5 

## MR. ELSZASZ: I will go ahead and move on. 6 

## So again the next two groups here that we have 7 

## identified are vented gas log sets and unvented gas 8 

## log sets. Of course as was mentioned earlier I think 9 

## we have kind of discussed some of the key features of 10 

## gas log sets earlier in opening statements but gas 11 

## log sets are typically installed and existing masonry 12 

## fireplaces. Of course a distinguishing feature 13 

## between these groups as well that are vented or 14 

## unvented or not and these products also, you know 15 

## what was mentioned before don't include an enclosure 16 

## or heat shielding so I guess on that there. And of 17 

## course the last product category that we kind of 18 

## analyzed and we have already discussed this quite a 19 

## bit are outdoor products. 20 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 21 

## Electric Institute. For this particular sub-category 22 

## wouldn't the majority of a lot of these products --Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## I'm just more familiar with these products in 2 

## commercial settings rather than residential so did 3 

## you do that sort of break out, whether it is more 4 

## commercial versus residential because you know it 5 

## does make a difference in terms of type of product 6 

## coverage sometimes under DOE? 7 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Well so when it comes to I 8 

## guess the differences between how they are used and 9 

## energy use I guess I would defer to later portions of 10 

## the analysis specifically the energy use analysis. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: But Steve to your point 12 

## for coverage the answer is no. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Move on. 14 

## MR. ELSZASZ: The products covered are not 15 

## based on if it goes in a commercial building or a 16 

## residential setting. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Ashley and John 18 

## Cymbalsky both, proceed. 19 

## MR. ELSZASZ: So based on data that we 20 

## received from Hearth Patio and Barbeque Association 21 

## we were able to estimate market shares again of the 22 

## gas fired hearth product market and so these are theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## -- you know estimates that we came up with. Again 2 

## outdoor product category was adjusted starting with 3 

## HPBA data as a starting point but was adjusted to 4 

## include patio heaters and I think we have a question? 5 

## MR. HOUCK: James Houck. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you leave that on 7 

## James? 8 

## MR. HOUCK: Okay now can you hear me? 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 10 

## MR. HOUCK: James Houck. Yeah I have a 11 

## couple points regarding your market assessment 12 

## slide. One is I'm not questioning the accuracy 13 

## although I don't have the numbers in front of me but 14 

## the division of how you categorize these different 15 

## types of appliances I think may cause considerable 16 

## confusion and if it was involved in DOE's projection 17 

## of future markets it's totally inappropriate and the 18 

## project that this shows in the rule in the technical 19 

## support document is quite an error. 20 

## What I'm referring to is you have 21 

## grouped vented fireplaces, inserts and stoves 22 

## together and unvented fireplaces, inserts and stovesNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## together and vented gas logs and unvented gas logs 2 

## off to the side. Inserts and gas logs are for a 3 

## retrofit market. Fireplaces and stoves are primarily 4 

## not entirely, but primarily for a new housing market 5 

## therefore the impact that it will have on the 6 

## prediction of future markets will be different if 7 

## they are categorized in this way. 8 

## For example you would not want to use a 9 

## new housing development for estimating of the gas log 10 

## sets or the inserts which appears to be the case. 11 

## Also what I want to talk about later I hope I have 12 

## the opportunity is the ramifications that these have 13 

## on safety and air quality. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. 15 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Okay as far as the comments 16 

## you had regarding shipments those will be 17 

## particularly useful during the shipments analysis 18 

## discussion which is a bit later so if you have you 19 

## know, comments regarding what was used as far as 20 

## correlations go to predict shipments into the future 21 

## that I think would be the time to you know state 22 

## those comments.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Dana? 2 

## MR. MOROZ: Dana Moroz, Wolf Steel. I 3 

## don't have numbers unfortunately to support it but I 4 

## am gravely concerned about the 15% of outdoor 5 

## products that your assessment has identified. I 6 

## think that's grossly exaggerated certainly based on 7 

## our production and our sales without having those 8 

## numbers in front of me to quote to you. 9 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Okay thank you. If there 10 

## aren't any more comments I am going to go ahead and 11 

## move on. So as we stated earlier you know this 12 

## rulemaking is focused on a prescriptive requirement 13 

## and so digging into the market assessment a little 14 

## bit further we are looking at the different types of 15 

## ignition systems that are in the market and generally 16 

## these fell into three different categories, match lit 17 

## which is essentially the lack of the ignition system, 18 

## the constant burning or standing pilot which we have 19 

## discussed earlier and the electronic ignition. 20 

## Again we will discuss this a little bit 21 

## further later but we found that as far as electronic 22 

## ignitions go intermittent pilot ignition systems areNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the primary form found in the hearth product market 2 

## and so based on several resources including comments 3 

## we have gotten during confidential manufacturer 4 

## interviews these are the estimates that we came up 5 

## with for each of the hearth product groups, split out 6 

## by their ignition type. 7 

## So I think I'll pause here and leave this 8 

## up for a second if anyone has comments on these 9 

## estimate shares. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 11 

## MR. DAY: Yeah one of the major issues is 12 

## that you missed a technology completely. The 13 

## industry developed a technology that was developed 14 

## solely to achieve greenhouse gas emission reductions 15 

## and its now being standardized under ANSI under the 16 

## name On Demand. Be careful with that terminology 17 

## because some people in the industry have used that 18 

## for other types of devices but it is a device that 19 

## was designed specifically to eliminate unnecessary 20 

## pilot use. 21 

## It's been in use in the industry for the 22 

## last several years. Its use is expanding and so youNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## know it is an important -- it's a very important 2 

## change in terms of the innovation that has gone on 3 

## and in the industry of which there has been quite a 4 

## bit. I would also point out that match lit 5 

## technology isn't legal for vented indoor products so 6 

## there is no such thing as a match lit indoor product 7 

## except for -- 8 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Sorry was that vented or 9 

## unvented? 10 

## MR. DAY: Vented. The sole exception to 11 

## that is unvented I'm sorry vented gas log sets only 12 

## natural gas, only in some jurisdictions and for 13 

## outdoor it is the predominant, it's the predominant 14 

## approach in your standing pilot numbers for outdoor 15 

## products or probably or to magnitude high at least. 16 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Thank you. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 18 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI. With 19 

## regard to your numbers here on unvented products 20 

## whether it is a gas log set or otherwise at least 21 

## from the perspective of the manufacturers we 22 

## represent the electronic ignition percentage is soNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## small it is practically zero so we think you have 2 

## certainly overestimated what percentage of these 3 

## products have electronic ignition as you have defined 4 

## it here. 5 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Thank you. 6 

## MR. STANONIK: We will try to get you a 7 

## more precise number but it is going to be small. 8 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Thanks. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please Barton? 10 

## MR. DAY: The other key point is that 11 

## these numbers if you had looked at these numbers five 12 

## years ago they would be totally different. If you 13 

## look at them five years from now without any DOE 14 

## activity they would be completely different. This is 15 

## an area where innovation in the industry has been a 16 

## major factor and these numbers are changing very 17 

## rapidly. 18 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Just to follow up when it 19 

## comes to the additional ignition type that you have 20 

## mentioned I think what would specifically help us 21 

## would be again shipments data so that we could 22 

## accurately reflect market shares here.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DAY: Well you can't because the 2 

## picture is changing very rapidly. 3 

## MR. ELSZASZ: I see okay, thank you. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE 5 

## could Barton or somebody else comment on what it 6 

## actually does in terms of the On Demand and how many 7 

## hours of non-active mode does it shut itself off 8 

## with? The way I understood it earlier that is what 9 

## it means to be On Demand. Is there a common out grid 10 

## on the set up of these things or? 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Ryan. 12 

## MR. CARROLL: Yeah Ryan Carroll with HPBA. 13 

## It's programmable so it could be as few as a handful 14 

## of hours that might be set by the controls 15 

## manufacturer I believe. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Factory set at some level? 17 

## MR. CARROLL: Maybe. 18 

## MR. CYBALSKY: But is it shipped by the 19 

## manufacturer at some level of hours? 20 

## MR. SCHLACHTER: In our case yes. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Is it John? 22 

## MR. SCHLACHTER: I'm sorry JohnNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Schlachter, Maxitrol, yes the manufacturer determines 2 

## the length of time per the main burner not to be 3 

## active. After that time period times out it 4 

## extinguishes the pilot. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Can you tell us the hours? 6 

## MR. DAY: This is Barton Day again the key 7 

## point about it is that it is designed to eliminate 8 

## all pilot light gas consumption except during 9 

## relatively heavy periods of product use and so the 10 

## prospect of standing pilot lights being left on 11 

## outside the heating season or outside the intensive 12 

## use season it completely eliminates that. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right so I guess what 14 

## would help us in our analysis is just two fold right 15 

## so we would like to make a more accurate depiction of 16 

## how the market is moving in terms of the shipments 17 

## and then at the same time be able to know how to 18 

## adjust our hourly -- our annual hours of non-use just 19 

## to get the energy correct to so that would -- both of 20 

## those things would be helpful. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay John? 22 

## MR. SCHLACHTER: I just wanted to commentNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## that yeah it's programmed and shipped to the 2 

## manufacturer that way. It's not a user programmable 3 

## function so the consumer can't change that timing. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you, comment 5 

## from someone who is joining us online, Martin Thomas 6 

## says there is also a remote operated pilot which 7 

## makes it easy to turn the pilot on and off, Dana you 8 

## are next. 9 

## MR. MOROZ: I just wanted to comment that 10 

## this we are talking about new technology that is 11 

## evolving and these numbers as Barton has pointed out 12 

## shows a trend that the industry is working towards 13 

## developing new technology so I have asked for a 14 

## definitive timeline that these controls shut down is 15 

## it practical? There are new systems being developed 16 

## every day. We are going to our suppliers and we are 17 

## saying here's what we are looking at and what's 18 

## practical -- what works best and achieves the desired 19 

## effect which is a satisfied customer. 20 

## So to come up with a timeline and say this 21 

## specifically is what they are going to do today is 22 

## not practical, we haven't got there yet with ourNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## technology. We have one on the market today the 2 

## standards for pilot controls are just being revised 3 

## by a technical committee to address this new type of 4 

## technology and so it would be premature for us to 5 

## come up with a definitive time line for them. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 7 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI. Just 8 

## one other point in terms of what this particular NOPR 9 

## I can't help but note that although you presented in 10 

## a slide I'll say at least a pseudo-definition of 11 

## constant burning standing pilot no such definition 12 

## was provided in the regulation so I think for all of 13 

## us it might be helpful to at least see what DOE 14 

## proposed or what they believe is the definition of 15 

## constant burning pilot. 16 

## In the absence of that I am assuming it is 17 

## the common industry definition which is fairly 18 

## similar to what we see on the slide that being the 19 

## case the On Demand pilot shuts off the pilot not with 20 

## any additional user interaction, is not by definition 21 

## a constant burning standing pilot. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right and this is Ashley.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## So that brings up a good point and to both of yours 2 

## would you suggest that DOE analyze that as a design 3 

## option in this rule? 4 

## MR. STANONIK: Of course. 5 

## MR. DAY: I think I would suggest -- 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton Day? 7 

## MR. DAY: Yes sorry I apologize. I think 8 

## I would suggest that the issue that you are trying to 9 

## address probably won't be around in five years. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Rett? 11 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. Just 12 

## since the last time we were here three and a half 13 

## years ago our gas logs sales were about 3 to 5% 14 

## electronic ignition systems. Last year it was up to 15 

## about 14% so we are working on it ourselves but as I 16 

## said in my comments with our types of products we 17 

## have a very hard limit with current technology or 18 

## even expected technology because of the extreme cost 19 

## to develop by the control manufacturers products with 20 

## electronic ignition that will accomplish what you 21 

## want for larger fireplaces that just isn't available 22 

## and I would be out of business in that segment ifNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## this went through. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay well thanks for that 3 

## specificity that is helpful and please hand that 4 

## microphone to Leslie. 5 

## MR. BORTZ: I don't mean to question you 6 

## Rett but I think there's a big difference between the 7 

## amount of electronic ignition systems on LP as 8 

## compared to natural. Do you see that? 9 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen we sell 10 

## more natural gas sets than we do propane for vented 11 

## products, for vent free it's still a little bit more 12 

## skewed to the natural than propane but as far as the 13 

## electronic ignition system usage I haven't analyzed 14 

## it between the two gas types. I think it's still 15 

## skewed a little more towards natural just because it 16 

## is the larger proportion of our sales. 17 

## MR. BORTZ: Excuse me Leslie Bortz. I 18 

## believe that proportionately there is more sold to 19 

## the LP market because the LP market has a pilot that 20 

## costs more money to run. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Thank you that's helpful.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: So we are going to keep 2 

## moving on with the market assessment. 3 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Actually we are moving on to 4 

## the engineering analysis. So the purpose of the 5 

## engineering analysis is basically you start to put 6 

## some numbers to this. So the idea here is to 7 

## determine what the cost difference is for the 8 

## proposed prescriptive requirement disallowing 9 

## standard pilots. So the methodologies used here, 10 

## it's kind of a combination of two approaches. One is 11 

## a design option approach which seeks to determine the 12 

## incremental cost of adding on a new technology or 13 

## design and the second methodology is reverse 14 

## engineering or in other words tearing down the 15 

## physical product, determining its bill of materials 16 

## and then assigning costs based on that bill of 17 

## materials. 18 

## Again focused on the prescriptive -- the 19 

## potential prescriptive standard here we have assumed 20 

## that a standing pilot model would need to convert to 21 

## an intermittent pilot ignition again. We found that 22 

## IPI or intermittent pilot ignitions are moreNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## predominant in a hearth market. And also I will just 2 

## mention going forward that as it was mentioned 3 

## previously match lit systems you know, of course 4 

## don't have a standing pilot and so you know when it 5 

## comes to discussing the effects of the proposed 6 

## standard the match lit systems aren't really 7 

## considered. 8 

## So graphically and this could be sorry -- 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 10 

## MR. BORTZ: When we started talking to 11 

## Navigant you had four categories. You had match lit, 12 

## you had piezo you had standing pilot and you had 13 

## electronic ignition. We explained to you much to our 14 

## dis-benefit I think that piezo isn't a type of 15 

## ignition it is a part of an ignition system. If a 16 

## person buys which they do -- buys a piezo on a 17 

## standing pilot system it is because they want to be 18 

## able to turn it on and off so I think that I made a 19 

## mistake in not in the reality of the systems but I 20 

## made a mistake by telling you that's not a system 21 

## because certainly there's no reason to have a piezo 22 

## if you are not going to turn the unit on and off.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Rett please? 2 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. Yeah a 3 

## piezo just replaces a match or an aim in flame. 4 

## That's all it does. It's just an easy means of 5 

## igniting the gas. It has nothing to do with the main 6 

## function of these control systems which is for safety 7 

## shutdown in the event of an interruption in the gas 8 

## supply or a flame out. You want to be able to shut 9 

## down that gas flow absolutely required on propane 10 

## because propane is heavier than air and sinks to the 11 

## ground, pools and lights off of the first spark. 12 

## Natural gas is lighter than air and vents 13 

## up the chimney so. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: So the point is we sell a 15 

## fairly significant amount of what you would call 16 

## standing pilot but with piezos and I don't know if 17 

## you take that into consideration when you say how 18 

## much energy wasted energy, there is because there is 19 

## no reason to buy the piezo accept it makes it an 20 

## awful lot easier than sticking your hand in the 21 

## fireplace with a match. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah okay thank you, Dana?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. MOROZ: Dana Moroz, Wolf Steel. In 2 

## your methodology and your reverse engineering 3 

## approach I am a little concerned about how you would 4 

## have identified your costs. There's a fundamental 5 

## difference between electronic ignition and standing 6 

## pilots. One uses a generator system and one uses a 7 

## flame as part of an electrical circuit. The problem 8 

## that arises is when it is applied inside of an 9 

## appliance is it becomes much more sensitive to air 10 

## movement and that air movement is governed by the 11 

## different applications of the installation whether it 12 

## be a fireplace or an insert or a stove. 13 

## Electronic ignition additionally will 14 

## suffer a microsecond of disconnect between the flame 15 

## and that sensor to shut off the gas. A standing 16 

## pilot system on the other hand that uses the 17 

## generator will operate up to 30 seconds without any 18 

## flame before it will shut off the gas. That makes it 19 

## much more tolerant of the many varying conditions and 20 

## each appliance and your tear down method of assessing 21 

## cost doesn't look at that development of each 22 

## individual product and how it interacts within thatNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## environment. 2 

## It's like looking at simply taking this 3 

## component out and putting this component in and 4 

## there's a lot more detail and design that goes in 5 

## behind the scenes to make it function in each and 6 

## every application. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. 8 

## MR. ELSZASZ: So again drilling down into 9 

## this engineering analysis a little further you know 10 

## I've mentioned this a couple of times already we 11 

## found intermittent pilot ignitions to be the 12 

## predominant form of electronic ignition systems in 13 

## the hearth market and so when comparing a standing 14 

## pilot unit and this applies to any of the groups that 15 

## we looked at, you know what we are trying to assess 16 

## is what the differences between a standing pilot and 17 

## having to convert it to an electronic ignition and so 18 

## in the case of the electronic ignition the general 19 

## assumption was that these would be converting to an 20 

## intermittent pilot. 21 

## As far as the standing pilot units are 22 

## concerned the baseline assumption varied by productsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## so in the case of vented and unvented fireplaces, 2 

## inserts and stoves we found that the millivolt gas 3 

## valve was more predominant for several reasons, not 4 

## the least of which being space constraints. 5 

## So fireplaces, inserts and stoves already 6 

## have an enclosure and heat shielding and make it more 7 

## readily available for the larger millivolt gas valve 8 

## whereas for vented and unvented gas log sets, outdoor 9 

## you know there are I guess additional space 10 

## constraints imposed as well as cost considerations 11 

## and we found that manual gas valves were more 12 

## predominant for those product groups. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 14 

## MR. BORTZ: I'll wait, yes sorry. 15 

## MR. ELSZASZ: You can go ahead. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: No I'm sorry I'm a talker so. 17 

## MR. ELSZASZ: This is the last slide of 18 

## the engineering analysis so you can go ahead and 19 

## comment anyways but so these are the results of that 20 

## engineering analysis. What you will find presented 21 

## here are you know each of the groups, for each of the 22 

## groups what is driving the cost are predominantly twoNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## things, of course the components and labor that went 2 

## into the assembly but also the representative 3 

## shipment volumes. 4 

## So based on shipments data that we have 5 

## gotten from HPBA as well as a listing of 6 

## manufacturers we have assumed a certain shipment 7 

## volume for each of these product groups which you 8 

## know tend to scale the manufacturer production costs 9 

## and so I guess I will pause here as well for comments 10 

## on the manufacturer -- 11 

## MR. KUPSH: Can I make a quick comment 12 

## going back? 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim please? 14 

## MR. KUPSH: Based on slide 30 if you take 15 

## a look at your information on slide 26 shouldn't IPI 16 

## be your representative baseline because it is the 17 

## system that has the highest percentage for the first 18 

## two categories? 19 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Right so I should have 20 

## explained here is what is meant by baseline is -- 21 

## MR. KUPSH: Cost wise. 22 

## MR. ELSZASZ: What's that?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. KUPSH: You are saying cost wise 2 

## rather than yeah -- 3 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Right. 4 

## MR. KUPSH: But I makes it seem as that is 5 

## the predominant system not what is for those two 6 

## categories the predominant system currently is IPI. 7 

## MR. ELSZASZ: I see right so back in the 8 

## market in tech assessment that's where we see it so 9 

## you are talking about vented fireplaces, inserts and 10 

## stoves so we do -- that is factored into the analysis 11 

## we know that electronic ignitions are more 12 

## predominant in that group. What we are seeing here 13 

## is that baseline is normally since there aren't 14 

## currently any heart product standards what we defined 15 

## as baseline is a product that consumes the most 16 

## energy in standby mode and so you know normally with 17 

## a product that already has an efficiency level 18 

## established, the baseline would be that unit which 19 

## just meets the minimum efficiency standard. But 20 

## since that isn't the case here the baseline is what 21 

## uses the most energy. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE soNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## just to follow up so when we get later in the 2 

## analysis the market shares of those technologies are 3 

## factored in when we do the impacts to consumers, 4 

## manufacturers, et cetera. 5 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Right. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let me see Rett? 7 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen on the 8 

## slide that was just up with the chart what is max 9 

## tech in quotes is that a type of electronic? 10 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Maximum technology. 11 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: What does that mean? 12 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Or max tech option is the 13 

## design option that reduces the energy consumption of 14 

## the mode that you are looking at by the largest 15 

## amount. 16 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen so are you 17 

## saying that the electronic ignition represents the 18 

## maximum technology for being able to have no gas 19 

## usage in the standby mode? 20 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Right, right. 21 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Thank you. 22 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Yep.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank and then back to 2 

## Leslie. 3 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI. A 4 

## question and actually two questions but the first 5 

## question so your chart on slide 31 of the 6 

## representative shipment volume is that intended to 7 

## reflect the market assessment that is shown on slide 8 

## 24? 9 

## Or based on that? And the reason I ask is because if 10 

## I look at slide 24 the total estimate of unvented 11 

## products is I'm going to round it to up 23% which is 12 

## certainly less than half of 56% which is the vented 13 

## fireplaces so if I maintain those proportions the 14 

## total of the two numbers in this slide for unvented 15 

## should be less than 5,000 and in fact if you actually 16 

## run the numbers it comes out to be about 4,100 and 17 

## yet you have got it at 7,000 so why is it -- the 18 

## question is why is it different? 19 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Yeah so the portions are 20 

## different because these take into account the number 21 

## of manufacturers that are making any one of these 22 

## types of products so that is why the difference inNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## purportions. 2 

## MR. STANONIK: But I venture -- 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: No Frank it is purchasing 4 

## power right so in the cost model the cost of the 5 

## component will change based on the purchasing power 6 

## in terms of volume of the manufacturer that's what 7 

## this slide is trying to depict. It's not going to 8 

## match the shipments from the other, it is purchasing 9 

## power. 10 

## MR. STANONIK: So it is not intended to 11 

## match? 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct it is not intended 13 

## to match. 14 

## MR. STANONIK: All right then I had one 15 

## more question and I'm going to go back to the 16 

## previous slide 30 your representative standing pilot 17 

## type for an unvented fireplace insert stove you have 18 

## a millivolt gas valve and for an unvented gas log you 19 

## have a manual gas valve, both of those products use 20 

## the same ODS pilot system, why the distinction? We 21 

## couldn't understand why that was there or I will 22 

## rephrase that. What do you think is different maybe,Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## it's the same. 2 

## MR. ELSZASZ: So the difference between 3 

## the millivolt and the manual we found was both the 4 

## space constraints and the cost so in the case of a 5 

## vented or unvented gas log sets by reviewing product 6 

## literature we found that manual gas valves were more 7 

## likely to be used in gas log sets as opposed to an 8 

## unvented one and it does effect the cost that we see 9 

## on slide I think 31. 10 

## MR. STANONIK: Ok excuse me so unvented 11 

## gas log sets you are including products that don't 12 

## have ODS systems? 13 

## MR. ELSZASZ: No. Unvented whether its 14 

## fireplace, inserts, stove or gas logs would include 15 

## the oxygen depletion sensor. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: They have the same control. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Perhaps the manufacturers 18 

## can answer. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim Kupsh? 20 

## MR. KUPSH: Yes, you have for the unvented 21 

## systems you have both millivolt and manual 22 

## applications. Normally the manual application is notNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## anything but a log set because it is a more cost 2 

## effective lower price than the fireplace those have a 3 

## millivolt system on it. 4 

## MR. ARMSTRONG: So in answer to your 5 

## question Frank, that would affect our delta which is 6 

## why we did them more conservative. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Ashley, Dana? 8 

## MR. MOROZ: Just if I can get a little bit 9 

## more clarity Jim are you saying it's not a millivolt 10 

## control then? 11 

## MR. KUPSH: No what I'm saying is that you 12 

## have for unvented systems you have both a manual 13 

## valve application and a millivolt valve application 14 

## but I doubt there are any stoves, fireplaces, 15 

## inserts, vent free that are being sold with just a 16 

## manual valve. It only really exists as a baseline 17 

## for the log set applications and on the more 18 

## expensive fireplace stoves they are using the 19 

## millivolt and so that would probably be the only 20 

## control application both using the ODS sensing pilot. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks Jim, Dana? 22 

## MR. MOROZ: This is Dana again just fromNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## my clogged old mind what you are telling me then is 2 

## the manual does not employ millivolts? 3 

## MR. KUPSH: No when you -- a millivolt 4 

## valve has a separate millivolt operator for the main 5 

## burner. 6 

## MR. MOROZ: Right. 7 

## MR. KUPSH: A manual valve has simply an 8 

## electromagnet as a safety in the control. 9 

## MR. MOROZ: And what -- 10 

## MR. KUPSH: And a millivolt does too but 11 

## it also has a second operator. A manual valve is 12 

## like pilot rotate to on. 13 

## MR. MOROZ: And what holds the gas flow 14 

## I'm sorry I'm just trying to get an understanding. 15 

## MR. KUPSH: The thermal couple on the 16 

## pilot. 17 

## MR. MOROZ: So it is millivolt? 18 

## MR. KUPSH: Correct but that's normally 19 

## not -- that's normally what's being considered a 20 

## millivolt valve. 21 

## MR. MOROZ: By point of definition and 22 

## that's why I'm trying to when you get down to it itNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## is a millivolt system then? 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So Rett please? 3 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen what 4 

## distinguishes generally between a manual control from 5 

## a millivolt is the manual control uses a thermocouple 6 

## a single couple whereas for its heating element it is 7 

## electrical element and the millivolt uses a 8 

## multi-couple or thermopile. 9 

## So you need a lot more electricity, a lot 10 

## more millivoltage to operate a millivolt control 11 

## system because it has the dual operation of both 12 

## safety feature and operating the on and off of the 13 

## control valve as from what you need for a manual 14 

## control system where it is merely the safety function 15 

## that the pilot is being used for. 16 

## MR. MOROZ: Dana from Wolf Steel again. 17 

## And I just asked for that clarity Rett because here 18 

## we are identifying it as a different system. I think 19 

## traditionally in our industry we identified the one 20 

## with the thermopile as being a remote control 21 

## millivolt system and the manual was employing a 22 

## thermocouple but here we are calling it a manualNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## which would suggest it is just and on and off shut 2 

## off which it is not. 3 

## I think we should distinguish that in fact 4 

## it is a millivolt system as well. 5 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen well I 6 

## distinguish millivolt systems as being really they 7 

## are operator device agnostic, you can put a wall 8 

## switch, you can put a remote control, you can put a 9 

## wall timer you can put any variety of external 10 

## switching devices on to that type of system that you 11 

## can't put on to a manual control valve. 12 

## MR. MOROZ: Agreed but we are defining -- 13 

## we are distinguishing between a manual and a 14 

## millivolt and to Frank's point I think it is 15 

## misleading, it is a millivolt. 16 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen what they 17 

## are actually putting here and correct me if I am 18 

## wrong, is they looked at all the different types of 19 

## products within that particular group and within the 20 

## unvented fireplace, inserts and stoves they found 21 

## that the predominant usage of valve type is the 22 

## millivolt gas valve whereas for gas log sets andNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## unvented gas log sets it is a manual control. And 2 

## from that that is where they made their cost 3 

## calculations that was the baseline they established. 4 

## I don't make unvented fireplaces, inserts 5 

## and stoves, perhaps a manufacturer of that would 6 

## better be suited to comment on what type of control 7 

## valve is the most predominant type. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Barton go ahead. 9 

## MR. DAY: Just a question, we are now 10 

## talking about which type is predominant. Going back 11 

## a couple of slides where you had the breakout in 12 

## market share that you referred to -- my question is 13 

## where did you get data to come up with the market 14 

## shares? 15 

## MR. ELSZASZ: You mean for the ignition 16 

## types? 17 

## MR. DAY: Yeah. 18 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Ignition type, a couple of 19 

## resources. One was through product literature review 20 

## so that that was an extensive review that resulted in 21 

## essentially a data base with model numbers, ignition 22 

## information and so those proportions for several ofNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## these categories that was used as well as during the 2 

## confidential manufacturer interviews. 3 

## We got feedback during that interview 4 

## process that indicated you know typically what 5 

## percentage of their shipments you know were for each 6 

## ignition type I guess. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Rett go ahead. 8 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Yeah I'm a little -- well 9 

## I can tell you and I will be happy to divulge it in 10 

## my Navigant interview that I said that I have no idea 11 

## what the percentages are there is no you know, valid 12 

## clearing house for it where everybody in the industry 13 

## is divulging their sales numbers. 14 

## I don't know how they come up with these 15 

## and there is only I'm sorry how many manufacturers 16 

## did you interview for this assessment? 17 

## MR. ELSZASZ: I'll have to refer to 18 

## another member of my team for that. 19 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: More than 10? 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 21 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: 5? Okay so just supposing 22 

## it was 7 take away me because I wouldn't do numbers,Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Leslie did you do numbers for the industry? 2 

## MR. BORTZ: No, we did some numbers but 3 

## they weren't these. They weren't close to these. On 4 

## our manufacturer we did some guess on our 5 

## manufacturer interview and they are just value and -- 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay so back to Barton. 7 

## Pardon me let's let Leslie follow on please go ahead 8 

## Leslie. 9 

## MR. BORTZ: It's a different question. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay then Barton go ahead. 11 

## MR. DAY: I was just going to point out we 12 

## have been trying to figure out you know how to get 13 

## reasonable data on this and one of the issues is that 14 

## if you simply look at model numbers and so forth 15 

## without shipment data for the specific models it is 16 

## useless and the additional problem is that as I 17 

## mentioned there has been a lot of evolution and I 18 

## went to one major manufacturer at the show as you 19 

## probably know. I mean several major manufacturers 20 

## have completely shifted away from standing pilot 21 

## lights and others you ask them you know well what is 22 

## your design been like, what about the newly designedNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## products over the last few years and they are saying 2 

## you know we have one product that we have designed 3 

## that has a standing pilot, everything else doesn't. 4 

## But trying to get hard data on that I mean 5 

## we could see the enormous trend, we can see that 6 

## trend showing up when people are talking about the 7 

## products that are coming out now as opposed to 8 

## historical you know products that are still on the 9 

## market but trailing off. It's just -- I don't think 10 

## you can look at product literature review as being 11 

## informative as to what the percentages are and 12 

## frankly if you have figured out a way to get any 13 

## reliable data on that you are ahead of us. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 15 

## MR. BORTZ: Can I just ask you -- 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone. 17 

## MR. BORTZ: Back to page 23 and 24. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from DOE 19 

## and while is he redoing the slides and getting back 20 

## to slide 23 I just want to point out that while the 21 

## distribution of the different types of pilot lights 22 

## will matter later when we talk about the shipmentsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## and the energy use and the energy savings, it will 2 

## matter for the national impacts and the costs and 3 

## benefits yes. It doesn't necessarily matter so much 4 

## for the engineering. 5 

## The engineering is looking at what is the 6 

## cheapest product out there and then what can you do 7 

## to it to make it more efficient so what you are 8 

## seeing on the slide at least where Justin was is for 9 

## those different types of ignition systems, those are 10 

## the ones that we found that were in product 11 

## literature predominantly where we took apart products 12 

## that were the cheapest out there to build right now. 13 

## In other words so we are starting from the 14 

## bottom of the ground and working our way up in terms 15 

## of cost. As I think you would agree that we should 16 

## be doing. Now in terms of savings and how you accrue 17 

## savings that's going to depend a lot on your 18 

## distribution and we are not there yet. We are going 19 

## to get there but we are not there yet. 20 

## So I think for this point you know what 21 

## you are seeing on the slide is actually what you 22 

## would probably want us to do it is how you make sureNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## you accumulate costs in the best manner but we are 2 

## going to get to our distribution of what I would call 3 

## efficiencies which in this case is distribution of 4 

## different pilot lights later. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 6 

## MR. BORTZ: We are at slide 23 and 24. 7 

## Slide we is discussing market assessments and all the 8 

## slides before that you specifically I believe you 9 

## said this is trying to get us to a definition of what 10 

## we are covering or a definition of what hearth 11 

## products means, something to that effect. Is that -- 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: It is the scope to which 13 

## we analyze the proposed definition yeah. So this is 14 

## the scope of the products that we included based on 15 

## the definition. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: Then you continued on 24 the 17 

## next one you have still market assessment, this is 18 

## estimated shares of overall hearth products market 19 

## but that's divided very differently. That looks like 20 

## it's divided by pilot kit types or pilot kits, not by 21 

## any definition that you have except pilot kits or how 22 

## pilot kits are run.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: So what these numbers are 2 

## essentially these five numbers here add to 100 so 3 

## these are what were analyzed. 4 

## MR. BORTZ: Right but you are analyzing 5 

## them because they have different pilot kit types, you 6 

## have changed your market assessment from assessing 7 

## for a definition to assessing for pilot kits right? 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No, so the difference is 10 

## in the engineering analysis what we are looking at 11 

## here is the technology option. 12 

## MR. BORTZ: Vented fireplace, insert and 13 

## stove don't fit a definition that I know of except it 14 

## would fit a definition for pilot kits. It's the only 15 

## way you can do it, it's the only thing it could be 16 

## for isn't it? 17 

## MR. ELSZASZ: I guess I don't understand 18 

## the comment. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah I'm not following but 20 

## I am happy to have a conversation with you at lunch 21 

## about what is going on here. You know when we go 22 

## back to the previous slide and the market assessmentNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## that's just showing the breakdown of the different 2 

## categories of products based on the shipment data we 3 

## got on the market. 4 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: What's this breakdown for? 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: What's this? Which one 6 

## are we talking about? 7 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: 24. 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Go back to 24 for me, the 9 

## percentage of projects? 10 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Yeah. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll get to this but when 12 

## we talk about downstream analysis when you give us 13 

## overall shipment number you are going to see that 14 

## roughly 56% of the market is this category is a 15 

## vented fireplace. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: Why? Because of the use? 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Because the cost and the 18 

## savings and the distribution of different pilot 19 

## lights in each of these categories is going to be 20 

## different. 21 

## MR. BORTZ: It has to do with pilot 22 

## lights.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: It has to do with hours of 2 

## use, energy savings, cost benefit analysis and I 3 

## think we need to do our due diligence and analyze 4 

## these separately. 5 

## MR. KUPSH: Jim Kupsh. I'm just curious 6 

## is this simply the DOE statistics, I mean HPBA 7 

## statistics or did you account for non-reporting 8 

## industry sales? 9 

## MR. ELSZASZ: In the outdoor products we 10 

## accounted for non-HPBA. We had gotten further 11 

## information that for outdoor products specifically, 12 

## non-HPBA manufacturers were much more dominant. 13 

## MR. KUPSH: You might find that a few 14 

## other categories such as unvented gas logs is 15 

## affected by non-reporting sales also. 16 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Okay thank you. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please -- 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So why don't we go back to 19 

## the engineering past where we were and keeping going 20 

## because really what we are talking about here is the 21 

## cost benefit and until we get to that I don't think 22 

## it's going to really --Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay final question and 2 

## then we are going to move on, go ahead. 3 

## MR. DELAQUILA: Dave Delaquila, consultant 4 

## for Maxitrol Company. In our cost analysis when you 5 

## look at unvented heaters the market there you are 6 

## probably talking about for sure 90% plus currently 7 

## use let's say the continuous pilot ODS system. In 8 

## your analysis did you look at the certification cost 9 

## to re-certify every single model with the new 10 

## ignition device and what was the base cost analysis 11 

## that you used? 12 

## MR. ELSZASZ: I think that we will get to 13 

## later when we get to manufacturer impact analysis. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Right so we have just 15 

## another slide or two that we should go through before 16 

## we break for lunch which will be shortly so let's 17 

## proceed. 18 

## MR. ELSZASZ: This is really the end of 19 

## the engineering analysis. What I am presenting here 20 

## is a manufacturer markup and what this represents is 21 

## essentially the amount of profit that a manufacturer 22 

## would get by selling one of these units so all it isNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## is a multiplication factor to the manufacturer 2 

## production costs. 3 

## So what we are talking about is 4 

## multiplying this you know, these manufacturer 5 

## production costs by what we estimated to be 1.45 and 6 

## this was derived through again through the 7 

## confidential manufacturer interview process so again 8 

## we can seek comment here on what the MPC's as well as 9 

## the markup number that would be there. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 11 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz, can I apologize 12 

## once. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Just leave it on. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: Okay then you will hear what I 15 

## don't want you to hear. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You are catching on. 17 

## MR. BORTZ: Yeah, let's say something 18 

## costs me $10.00 that means I sell it to my 19 

## distributor for $14.50. 20 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Yes. 21 

## MR. BORTZ: To my distributor for $14.50. 22 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Right this is not the endNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## line right. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Dana? 3 

## MR. MOROZ: Just to confirm this number is 4 

## an average markup based on the 7 manufacturers you 5 

## interviewed and was it a cross section of all the 6 

## different types of products as well? 7 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Yes. 8 

## MR. MOROZ: Thank you. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So you see the comment box 10 

## there embedded in this slide on manufacturer markup 11 

## slide 33 additional comments, questions here. As 12 

## Ashley already said we are going to get into greater 13 

## detail in a lot of this as we proceed. Let's break 14 

## for lunch. It's now 12:30 we have made good progress 15 

## on the day, covered a lot of ground more yet to 16 

## cover. 12:30 let's break for an hour, please make 17 

## sure to have this badge with you visible as you walk 18 

## around the Forrestal Building. This room will be 19 

## secured so you can leave your stuff here. If you go 20 

## to the big cafeteria which is down to the ground 21 

## floor and about a hundred yards in that direction you 22 

## will have to pass back through a security portal soNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## you will need an ID at least typically you will. 2 

## And there is a Dunkin Donuts, pardon me 3 

## there's a Subway sub shop where the Dunkin Donuts is 4 

## down on the ground floor. You know where the 5 

## restrooms are so we will resume in one hour which 6 

## will be 1:30 and we have a good start on it we will 7 

## pick up at 1:30 here. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay let's resume please 9 

## take your seats. All set Linda? We are going to 10 

## pick up where we left off. Thanks for being back 11 

## here on time everyone we are going to pick up where 12 

## we left off, markups analysis. 13 

## MR. SIAP: Hello I'm David Siap from 14 

## Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. I'm going to 15 

## be going over the markups analysis, energy use as 16 

## well as lifecycle costs. Can you guys hear me? As 17 

## well as lifecycle costs, payback period, shipments, 18 

## national and regulatory impact analysis. 19 

## So the purpose of the markups analysis is 20 

## to determine the consumer price based on the 21 

## manufacturer selling price or MSP for both baseline 22 

## and high efficiency products. DOE also characterizedNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the distribution channels through which our products 2 

## move from the manufacturer to the consumer. DOE 3 

## identified two primary distribution channels shown 4 

## here, replacement and new construction. 5 

## The replacement has a wholesaler and a 6 

## mechanical contractor between the manufacturer and 7 

## the consumer and new construction is similar with a 8 

## general contractor before the consumer. 9 

## To Leslie's earlier point there were other 10 

## distribution channels including retailer analyzed as 11 

## well however for the retailer market and the 12 

## retailers function similar to the replacement market 13 

## except there was a retailer instead of a wholesaler. 14 

## But for the retailer market DOE wasn't able to -- 15 

## didn't have enough data to formulate a markup for 16 

## that market participant, the retailer so it did not 17 

## go forward with a separate distribution channel at 18 

## this time. 19 

## MR. BORTZ: How did you get at that -- 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie please turn on the 21 

## microphone. 22 

## MR. BORTZ: I'm sorry here I am.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Say your name for the 2 

## record. 3 

## MR. BORTZ: The missing Leslie Bortz, 4 

## Robert H. Peterson Company. How did you get data for 5 

## mechanical contractors? 6 

## MR. SIAP: That's coming up later in the 7 

## slide. It's through the ACCA 2005 report with the 8 

## census data. 9 

## MR. BORTZ: Maybe they are the same, you 10 

## know, you can look at them the same way. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't get your point 12 

## there Leslie, I'm sorry. 13 

## MR. BORTZ: Well if a wholesaler sells to 14 

## a mechanical contractor then sells to an end user 15 

## maybe the retailers is like the mechanical 16 

## contractor. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Got you, okay. 18 

## MR. SIAP: Thanks for that. Okay so -- 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: The Department is looking 20 

## for a kind of patterns of use here, patterns of 21 

## distribution so if you are able to comment on what 22 

## would be a typical pattern.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## MR. BORTZ: I did, yes what I said was we 2 

## independently came up with we broke out each of the 3 

## categories that you had before, in other words you 4 

## had three categories in vented products, three -- we 5 

## broke out each of them we figured out approximately 6 

## how much it was et cetera and we figured that 56 7 

## point some odd percent were sold through a 8 

## distribution channel to a retailer. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. 10 

## MR. SIAP: Thanks, so to formulate these 11 

## markups DOE analyzed financial data from each market 12 

## participant and it's important to note that although 13 

## in practice the markups are applied to the entire 14 

## hearth product they apply to the ignition component, 15 

## each component as well. 16 

## The table at the bottom lists the data 17 

## sources for each market participant. The 18 

## manufacturer markup we have covered previously 19 

## because as a result of the input from manufacturers. 20 

## Wholesaler markup is formulated from the hearth 21 

## report, the mechanical contractor from the ACCA 22 

## report, general contractor from the latest 2007Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## census bureau data and sales tax from the 2013 sales 2 

## tax clearing house. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Rett? 4 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: The wholesaler markup does 5 

## the HARDI profit report include fireplace 6 

## distributors? 7 

## MR. SIAP: I am not sure on that one. 8 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: What does it include? 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Rosenquist? 10 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi this is Greg 11 

## Rosenquist to help him out. It mostly covers major 12 

## HVAC contractors and provides some level of detail on 13 

## their size. It doesn't explicitly call out you know 14 

## the distributors of the industry. 15 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Distributors of these 16 

## products okay. 17 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Specifically yeah. I 18 

## would certainly welcome any data. 19 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: I was going to say on what 20 

## basis do you provide equivalency between this and 21 

## fireplace distributors? 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: We just use the sameNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## data. I mean we use that same data out of that 2 

## report and make the assumption that it is 3 

## representative of this industry as well. 4 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: And you could assume that 5 

## it's the same for toy distributors and for Twinkie 6 

## distributors and all of that? 7 

## MR. ROSESNQUIST: I wouldn't go that far. 8 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: But not necessarily 9 

## specific to this. 10 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Again absent any data 11 

## this is what we went with. 12 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Thank you. 13 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz again does this 14 

## mean that what you are saying is that the overall 15 

## market for -- or the overall markup for a replacement 16 

## product is 3.23 and for a new construction is 3.99? 17 

## Is that what you are saying? 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: You are jumping ahead and 19 

## yes. 20 

## MR. BORTZ: That's ridiculous. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let him get to that 22 

## point and then we will get additional comments.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BORTZ: Okay I just wanted to say it's 2 

## ridiculous. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay we will capture that 4 

## in detail. Let's proceed with the presentation. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So wait I want to go back 6 

## to that point. This is Ashley from DOE. I think 7 

## your point is well taken that we didn't have 8 

## fireplace specific data but it was generally from 9 

## heating, ventilation, air conditioning, those types 10 

## of contractors that distribute the products so are 11 

## you telling me the distributors of fireplaces are 12 

## exclusive just to fireplaces they do not distribute 13 

## any other type of heating, ventilation or air 14 

## conditioning products or that they are always just 15 

## fireplaces? 16 

## MR. BORTZ: Often. 17 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen yeah that 18 

## is correct. You have specific fireplace 19 

## distributors. They don't necessarily sell furnaces 20 

## or water heaters or things like that. Those are 21 

## different types of products with different margin 22 

## structures I would imagine than what our types ofNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## products have in this industry. You know I am 2 

## jumping ahead but I agree I don't have hard fast 3 

## numbers, but they just seemed low and they are there 4 

## for the -- 5 

## MR. KUPSH: Jim Kupsh, IT Controls. Yes 6 

## the HARDI members are normally not your fireplace 7 

## distributor type people, they are specific to HVAC 8 

## cell replacement parts and it's -- I'm trying to 9 

## think of people, not John Stone, but let's say Larson 10 

## in the Midwest, CC Dixon in the southeast, RE Michael 11 

## on the east coast, those are your HARDI type 12 

## wholesalers. 13 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Yeah Rett Rasmussen they 14 

## are not fireplace distributors. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 16 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: They are different animals 17 

## and that's our whole point on definition is it is a 18 

## different animal. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's fine and 20 

## your point is well taken except for do you have a 21 

## suggestion then on where we could look for data 22 

## that's more specific on you know in absence of thatNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## we welcome your feedback, we are happy to revise the 2 

## analysis to consider a more specific distribution 3 

## chain but we need your help. 4 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. Again we 5 

## are a small mom and pop industry we don't have these 6 

## types of you know these types of data that you are 7 

## looking for in most cases. We just do our little job 8 

## and sell product and make people happy that's what we 9 

## do. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: But you have enough of an 11 

## inclination to say we are wrong? 12 

## MR. BORTZ: Yes. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's where I'm trying 14 

## to or at least assert that we are wrong. So how do 15 

## we reconcile that you have the knowledge and the 16 

## expertise in your industry to assert we are wrong but 17 

## yet -- so can you help us connect the dots? 18 

## MR. BORTZ: Yes, we will try to help you. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you Leslie. 21 

## Dana you have a comment? 22 

## MR. MOROZ: It's private. I think what weNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## are not saying is it is the wrong assumption, that 2 

## doesn't suggest that we have that information. We 3 

## are saying that it is a different distribution 4 

## network and that is consistent with our product line 5 

## as well. 6 

## MR. BORTZ: What I am saying again Leslie 7 

## is the replacement market cannot be that much lower 8 

## than a builder market, it just can't be. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And is that specific to 10 

## log sets or is that specific to all the various 11 

## categories of fireplaces we are talking about. 12 

## MR. BORTZ: Fireplaces I believe you will 13 

## find fireplace people here that can answer that 14 

## question. I believe it is that if you sell direct to 15 

## builders there is a different markup than if you sell 16 

## to the replacement market. Somebody help me, can you 17 

## help? 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dana go ahead. 19 

## MR. MOROZ: Dana Moroz from Wolf Steel. I 20 

## would agree with that there is a different markup 21 

## depending on who the customer is. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen and we are 2 

## a manufacturer. I don't know; you would have to poll 3 

## the actual distributors and what you have shown is 4 

## here is just data from a distribution channel that is 5 

## not of what this proposed rule is about and that's 6 

## where I just go back to DOE and say shouldn't you 7 

## have some data specific to this industry that you 8 

## wish to regulate. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim did you have a comment 10 

## here? I thought you were trying no okay, yes please 11 

## Barton? 12 

## MR. DAY: Yes this is Barton. Just a 13 

## general comment -- you know I think sometimes there's 14 

## a perception that you know that we've got all of this 15 

## data and information and we are not sharing it and 16 

## the truth of the matter is we don't have the 17 

## information. This industry is just as Rett said it's 18 

## an industry with two manufacturers that are not small 19 

## businesses and a lot of the issues that are in play 20 

## here, they are required pieces for the economic 21 

## analysis for the energy use nobody has ever collected 22 

## the data. It just doesn't exist.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## We don't have it and I guess part of what 2 

## I think you hear people reacting to is just the ready 3 

## application okay there's a blank in our regulatory 4 

## analysis we have to have a number to put in the blank 5 

## so we will just find a number and in the absence of 6 

## data we will just make an assumption whether there is 7 

## a basis for the assumption or not and I think that is 8 

## the perception and I think that's what people are 9 

## responding to and really the point I wanted to make 10 

## is we don't have -- we are not sitting on a pile of 11 

## data. 12 

## We can't give you all the answers, we 13 

## don't know the answers, a lot of these issues just 14 

## have not been studied and that's the problem is that 15 

## you are going into a rulemaking where the basic data 16 

## is just not there. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Press on. 18 

## MR. SIAP: So DOE developed two markups 19 

## for each product market participant, the baseline and 20 

## incremental market. We are on slide 36. The 21 

## replacement markup relates the MSP of the baseline 22 

## products to the consumer purchase price and theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## baseline markup is applied to the baseline MSP only 2 

## to determine the baseline consumer purchase price. 3 

## Incremental markups relate to change in 4 

## the MSP of higher efficiency products to the change 5 

## in the consumer purchase price. This covers only 6 

## expenses that ferry with MSP such as operating 7 

## expenses and profit. Fixed costs such as overhead 8 

## and labor we do not scale with increased efficiency. 9 

## To clarify the incremental markup is 10 

## applied to the MSP difference only of higher 11 

## efficiency and baseline products. 12 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz, if I have a 13 

## product that costs me a dollar can you explain what 14 

## this says? 15 

## MR. SIAP: Sure so if you had well if you 16 

## had one product that cost a dollar and another that 17 

## cost two dollars and so the base and the dollar is 18 

## the baseline product and the baseline markup applies 19 

## only to the baseline that first dollar. 20 

## MR. BORTZ: Okay. 21 

## MR. SIAP: For the higher efficiency 22 

## product, the two dollar product it would be the firstNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## dollar is the baseline markup is applied to the first 2 

## dollar and the incremental markup is applied to the 3 

## second dollar and the sum is then your total consumer 4 

## price. 5 

## MR. BORTZ: So if I have a product that is 6 

## better or more efficient or whatever it costs me two 7 

## dollars I will get five dollars, my price will be 8 

## $5.33? 9 

## MR. SIAP: That's correct. 10 

## MR. BORTZ: What's the use of making 11 

## things better? 12 

## MR. DAY: I have a really simple question 13 

## and that is as you were looking at these issues did 14 

## you look at the individual types of product 15 

## differently or did you just look at everything as 16 

## though they were the same? 17 

## MR. SIAP: There was consideration by type 18 

## but primarily just the hearth product was viewed as 19 

## the class so primarily the same. 20 

## MR. DAY: So one analysis for everything? 21 

## MR. SIAP: Yes. 22 

## MR. DAY: Yes, okay thank you.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie go ahead. 2 

## MR. BORTZ: I would like to say that we 3 

## need -- I'm not sure that we need because I don't -- 4 

## we are not through this and I don't know how it is 5 

## being used but we need a two-step distribution markup 6 

## system. All of our products are sold that way and I 7 

## believe all of your products, no? 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: When you say two step 9 

## Leslie you mean? 10 

## MR. BORTZ: Distributor to retailer. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha, Rett? 12 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Leslie, Rett Rasmussen 13 

## this brings up a good point. Is there are many 14 

## different ways that manufacturers get their products 15 

## to market. One company tends to do the two-step 16 

## distribution model. Some people go strictly to the 17 

## mass merchants, to your Lowe's and Home Depot and 18 

## people like that. Others go to internet retailers, 19 

## some go -- not as many in this industry consumer 20 

## direct, but some and some go dealer direct, some go 21 

## builder direct, a combination of all of these and 22 

## just as you have so many different small companiesNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## they all find their little niche in the marketplace 2 

## that allows them to make payroll every week and 3 

## remain in business year after year and some of them 4 

## not. 5 

## So you know a one size fits all is very 6 

## difficult because there is not a one size fits all 7 

## company in this industry. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Thank you. 10 

## MR. SIAP: Okay so here we have the 11 

## results as I have already touched on a little bit. 12 

## The top table gives the results per market 13 

## participant for both replacement and new construction 14 

## distribution channel and baseline and incremental 15 

## markup. The manufacturer markup is the same as 16 

## discussed previously at 1.45 and the bottom table 17 

## gives the aggregated markup for both the baseline and 18 

## incremental case. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 20 

## MR. BORTZ: The bottom indicates that 21 

## there is like a ratio of like 3 to 1 more replacement 22 

## something like that?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. SIAP: Yes. 2 

## MR. BORTZ: What's that based on? 3 

## MR. SIAP: The ratio of replacement to new 4 

## construction was based on the ratio of the current 5 

## stock as listed in the residential energy consumption 6 

## survey, most recent data justified against the latest 7 

## shipment data. 8 

## MR. BORTZ: Okay. 9 

## MR. SIAP: For that same year. 10 

## MR. BORTZ: What does that have to do with 11 

## our industry? 12 

## MR. SIAP: Well the survey lists the year 13 

## the house was built and whether the so the ratio 14 

## there gives you the ratio of new construction to non. 15 

## MR. BORTZ: But if it is a furnace or 16 

## something like that or what products HVAC is that 17 

## what you said? 18 

## MR. SIAP: Sorry? 19 

## MR. BORTZ: Did you say that the products 20 

## that this is based on? 21 

## MR. SIAP: The residential energy 22 

## consumption, the REC survey gives hearth product --Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## lists hearth products exclusively for fireplaces. 2 

## MR. BORTZ: I'm just at a loss. 3 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I agree are you getting 4 

## at the shipments to the replacement market versus the 5 

## new construction market? 6 

## MR.SIAP: Yes. 7 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: So generally speaking in 8 

## most products I'm either going to use round about 9 

## figures, 75 to 80% of shipments generally go into the 10 

## replacement market just because the sheer volume of 11 

## the unit that is in the stock -- 12 

## MR. BORTZ: A refrigerator? 13 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: Yeah okay. 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: If you have 10 million 16 

## refrigerators shipped each year, 8 million are going 17 

## into the existing stock, the rest going into new 18 

## construction, so he is getting at a 3 to 1 ratio 19 

## here. 20 

## MR. BORTZ: Yes, those are really also 21 

## done through a retailer, the replacement market. 22 

## It's not a contractor I don't understand when you sayNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## mechanical contractor, that's just the guy who puts 2 

## it in. You buy it at Sears. I don't understand the 3 

## terminology. 4 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah if you look back at 5 

## the distribution channels again the assumption in 6 

## this analysis is that every party in that 7 

## distribution channel is marking up the equipment 8 

## until it finally gets to the consumer. 9 

## MR. BORTZ: Right. 10 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: And you are talking about 11 

## distribution channel where there is manufacturer to 12 

## retailer. 13 

## MR. BORTZ: I'm talking about manufacturer 14 

## to distributor to retailer. 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: To retailer and then to 16 

## consumer right? 17 

## MR. BORTZ: Right. 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: And in that distribution 19 

## channel we still say that there is going to be a 20 

## general contractor because someone has to install it. 21 

## We are not saying that the consumer is doing it 22 

## themselves.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## MR. BORTZ: You are right. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So if you look on -- 3 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: But the main thing is 4 

## here is this is what we use in the analysis, these 5 

## two distribution channels and what you are saying is 6 

## that something else, there is other distribution 7 

## channels that exist. 8 

## MR. BORTZ: Right and it seems like there 9 

## are other distribution channels than what you are 10 

## using. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So these are the two we 12 

## are using right, look at those channels, the flow 13 

## diagrams. So is there is a missing entity, so the 14 

## left is replacement and the right is new 15 

## construction, so are we missing an entity? 16 

## MR. BORTZ: Yes. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And what that entity is 18 

## called? 19 

## MR. BORTZ: The retailer. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So you think there should 21 

## be a retailer in between the wholesaler and the 22 

## contractor or between the contractor and the -- theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## contractor you are saying is just the installer? 2 

## MR. BORTZ: Right. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So you are saying instead 4 

## of the contractor we should have a retailer there and 5 

## that after the consumer purchases it from a retailer 6 

## they will then get a contractor to install it did I 7 

## get it? 8 

## MR. BORTZ: No well close. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10 

## MR. BORTZ: And that can happen but 11 

## normally what happens is the retailer also either 12 

## does himself or has contractors to do it. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay so what we are 14 

## calling -- 15 

## MR. BORTZ: And mechanical contractor and 16 

## the contractor just makes a fee he doesn't mark up. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay so and generally 18 

## speaking do you all agree that these two change if 19 

## you change mechanical contractor to retailer are 20 

## generally the two chains that would govern you know 21 

## all the different categories of hearths we are 22 

## talking about here.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DIRCKS: This is Peter Dircks from 2 

## HHT. I think what you are hearing from the group 3 

## here is it is very different based on what company 4 

## you are. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 6 

## MR. DIRCKS: What market you are serving, 7 

## what end consumer you are serving and how you go to 8 

## market, that's really what these two gentlemen are 9 

## saying. Some companies may use a two-step 10 

## distribution some of us used direct through retail it 11 

## also differentiates by replacement of new 12 

## construction. I think what you have probably done 13 

## there Greg is looked at the HVAC market based on what 14 

## your comments were earlier and assumed that there is 15 

## this two or three-step process. The hearth industry 16 

## is different, it's a specialty hearth channel because 17 

## of the distribution -- there's key skillsets required 18 

## in order to distribute and install. 19 

## So I think for us to give you some 20 

## guidance here today in order to clarify this is 21 

## probably quite difficult because there is a lot of 22 

## different paths to market. I think what you areNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## saying or I think what you are hearing is that is not 2 

## correct. And so we would need to come back to you 3 

## with other guidance at the appropriate time to figure 4 

## out exactly what was the arithmetic that you guys 5 

## used for this. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we would welcome 7 

## that guidance and we would be happy to incorporate it 8 

## if you would be willing to put it together. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie go ahead. Leslie on 10 

## the record go ahead. 11 

## MR. BORTZ: I think what you said is more 12 

## attuned to what we do and we are us we are not him 13 

## and him. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley's 15 

## re-characterization, yes okay thank you. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: Thanks. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay now we are moving on. 18 

## MR. SAIP: The next section is the energy 19 

## use analysis slide 38. The purpose is to determine 20 

## annual energy consumption of the hearth product 21 

## technician system. Resulting energy costs are inputs 22 

## to the lifecycle costs and payback period analysis.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## So here we have a brief summary of the energy's 2 

## methodology and I will be going over walking through 3 

## each point later on. 4 

## The energy use is determined through the 5 

## equation in the box there. The Qp is either the 6 

## standing pilot or intermittent pilot ignition system 7 

## power as determined in the engineering analysis. 8 

## This is a fuel input for standing pilot and 9 

## electrical power for intermittent pilot. OHP is the 10 

## operating hours of the pilot the on-time of the 11 

## standing pilot or intermittent pilot ignition system. 12 

## For a standing pilot it is determined 13 

## through field studies and RECs 2009 household data 14 

## and for intermittent pilot based on the hearth 15 

## product main burner operation. The final term 16 

## secondary effects are the impact of ignition 17 

## operation on households space condition system energy 18 

## use. In the heating season the standing pilot is 19 

## counted as beneficial heat and reduces furnace 20 

## operating hours and in the non-heating season it is 21 

## counted as an additional cooling load and increases 22 

## cooling.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 2 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 3 

## Electric Institute. For the non-heating season I was 4 

## looking at the technical support document and I was 5 

## wondering what kind of diversity factor did you use 6 

## for pilot lights. In other words what percentage did 7 

## you assume were turned off during the cooling season? 8 

## MR. SIAP: That is coming up on slide 40 9 

## or 39 for the steady pilot operating hours. You will 10 

## see a distribution there. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We are going to get to that 12 

## in a little bit. 13 

## Frank Stanonik? 14 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik AHRI. I 15 

## think your equation at least as you have explained it 16 

## here is incorrect so you are defining ignition system 17 

## power as standing pilot or intermittent pilot 18 

## ignition system power and then you define the 19 

## intermittent pilot ignition system power only as the 20 

## electrical power okay, but if I have an intermittent 21 

## pilot ignition system okay what happens is I use 22 

## electrical power to ignite the pilot and then theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## pilot is consuming gas during at least the burner 2 

## operating cycle. 3 

## So in that situation the overall energy 4 

## use of the pilot would be both the electrical power I 5 

## used to light it and whatever gas was burned during 6 

## the period it was on and yes your explanation says 7 

## the IPI I'm only going to count my electrical power. 8 

## MR. SIAP: This is the concern with the 9 

## standby use so that would be active mode energies. 10 

## So I tried to characterize the standby mode energy 11 

## use as opposed to -- 12 

## MR. STANONIK: Wow Frank Stanonik AHRI I 13 

## mean I have this bad habit of just reading words. It 14 

## says is determined annual energy consumption of the 15 

## hearth product ignition system. Well I didn't see 16 

## standby in there at all. That tells me just how much 17 

## energy the pilot is going to use. If that's the case 18 

## you really need to rewrite this and be a little 19 

## clearer. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you Frank. Yes 21 

## Rett? 22 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. I assumeNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## you are just for your electrical power consumed. You 2 

## are just taking into account 120 volt or your house 3 

## current electricity. Do you also have some allowance 4 

## for battery consumption and the cost from the 5 

## replacement of batteries? 6 

## MR. SIAP: For as far as cost that's kind 7 

## of more on the LCC analysis section we don't have a 8 

## cost for replacement of batteries. 9 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: So there's nothing within 10 

## this equation here that takes into account batteries, 11 

## you are just assuming it's line electricity? 12 

## MR. SIAP: We don't assume a different 13 

## power requirement for those two cases. 14 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen so when we 15 

## get into the actual costing of it then we will see 16 

## that you are either doing it just with electricity or 17 

## also including batteries. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay Barton? 19 

## MR. DAY: I wanted to comment on -- 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Your mic. 21 

## MR. DAY: I was going to comment on the 22 

## use of the RECs data but we might be better to holdNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## that to the next one. You can either turn to me 2 

## later. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Comments here before 4 

## we move on. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from Doe. I 6 

## want to just go back to Leslie's point about how 7 

## these things are purchased so at least in this area 8 

## it's very common for the contractor to sell directly. 9 

## I mean they have huge I mean www.gaslogs.com takes 10 

## you to Cypress Air which is a very major contractor 11 

## here that does HVAC and fireplaces. They are also a 12 

## contractor. 13 

## MR. BORTZ: They are a retailer. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think we might be 15 

## talking about the same thing. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: We might be but I don't think 17 

## you are they are a retailer buying from a 18 

## distributor. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So will there be two steps 20 

## or one step if we go back to that chain, that's what 21 

## we are trying to -- 22 

## MR. BORTZ: There will be the sameNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## two-steps that there always are, excuse me, Leslie 2 

## Bortz, the retailer sells the product and then the 3 

## contractor, whether it is the same guy or not, 4 

## charges a fee to install it. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So if I go to gaslogs.com 6 

## they are having their big sale and I call them up. 7 

## They have actually been at my house before so I know 8 

## these guys but Cypress Air the guy comes in, he sold 9 

## me whatever it is he sold and he is installing it. 10 

## So is that two people or one person, in your mind? 11 

## MR. BORTZ: It is two people that can be 12 

## one, but it is two separate functions. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Two fees so. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: There are two fees there. 15 

## There is the markup he gets for selling the product 16 

## and the fee he gets for installing it. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Just to go back again to 18 

## re-emphasize Ashley's point so the mechanical 19 

## contractor should be a retailer before in the same 20 

## box or a different box? 21 

## MR. BORTZ: I don't know. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Several people wish toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## speak. Go ahead Mike Rivest? 2 

## MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. These 3 

## are intended to be an ownership flow as well so in 4 

## this case the contractor and his markup would be part 5 

## of an installation cost and not necessarily part of 6 

## the this distribution chain. 7 8 

## MR. RIVEST: In that case in that 9 

## situation, you know his retailer/contractor but it is 10 

## one step. 11 

## MR. BORTZ: Well not necessarily because 12



## -- 13 

## MR. RIVEST: What I mean by step is an 14 

## ownership step. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from this person 16 

## behind you. 17 

## MS. FEINSTEIN: Rachel Feinstsein, Hearth, 18 

## Patio, Barbeque Association. I have been -- I have 19 

## come into this issue of retailer/contractor licensing 20 

## in the last six months or so as it has become a 21 

## growing issue for our retailers. In some states 22 

## retailers who sell these products and then they wantNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## to go out and install the products for their 2 

## customers they have to be a licensed contractor of 3 

## some kind within their state. 4 

## In Virginia right now the license is I 5 

## think it is alternative energy contractor and also 6 

## HVAC licensed contractors or mechanical contractors 7 

## can also install but they are usually contracted by a 8 

## retailer, so a retailer pays them an annual fee 9 

## almost an annual salary to be the contractor for 10 

## their location. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do they work for the 12 

## retailer? 13 

## MS. FEINSTEIN: In some cases yes. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So from the consumer's 15 

## point of view they just see the one thing though 16 

## right? 17 

## MR. FEINSTEIN: The retailers, they see 18 

## the retailer the contractor who is hired by the 19 

## retailer to go out and install. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So when the consumer gets 21 

## the bill let's say it's $1,000.00 they don't know 22 

## that a cut went somewhere and one cut went somewhereNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## else. 2 

## MR. BORTZ: You can buy it and take it 3 

## home. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: You can, you can but. 5 

## MR. BORTZ: You won't follow our 6 

## instructions because you need to be a qualified 7 

## scholar to do it, but people do it they buy it and 8 

## take it home and they install it themselves or they 9 

## hire a plumber or a qualified installer. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So I guess obviously it 12 

## has been done differently in different places but I 13 

## guess what we are interested in is to try to get that 14 

## final price correct. I mean frankly if there is five 15 

## steps or three steps is the beginning to the end. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: Right it doesn't matter there 17 

## is a markup to the person who is selling it and there 18 

## is a cost to installing it. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Rett final comment? 20 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. Right, 21 

## some of what you are saying John when you look at the 22 

## Cypress Air that's marketing but the functions withinNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## that are multiple -- you have got the dealer 2 

## function, you have got the contractor function. Some 3 

## areas of the country require the mechanical 4 

## contractors Rachel said, some do not. 5 

## The whole United States is as varied in 6 

## their requirements for installation as there are 7 

## different manufacturers and different means of going 8 

## to market, further complicating the issue, so, yes. 9 

## MR. BORTZ: Matchless ones, easier ones to 10 

## install and harder ones to install. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay are we ready to move 12 

## on now, I think so. 13 

## MR. SIAP: There's a question in the back. 14 

## MR. HOUCK: James Houck, I had a question 15 

## on your slide 38. How did you calculate the benefit 16 

## of the heating season? 17 

## MR. SIAP: That's going to be coming up in 18 

## about 3-4 slides. 19 

## MR. HOUCK: Okay I'll ask the question 20 

## then. 21 

## MR. SIAP: The secondary yeah. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Jack?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. GOLDMAN: Jack Goldman just a quick 2 

## question. If you were to put parenthesis around the 3 

## first step -- 4 

## MR. SIAP: Yes. 5 

## MR. GOLDMAN: In that equation would it be 6 

## QP times OHP or QP times OHP plus secondary because 7 

## they could have different results depending on that. 8 

## MR. SIAP: It's yeah so you do the 9 

## multiplication first in this case, yes. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay keep going. 11 

## MR. SIAP: So the buildings -- first I am 12 

## going to talk about the building sample before going 13 

## back into the depths of the energy use. The building 14 

## sample is how DOE characterizes the households which 15 

## have hearth products. Starting from the latest RECs 16 

## data which is the residential energy consumption 17 

## survey -- we first decided to get those which have a 18 

## fireplace and those which use either natural gas or 19 

## propane. 20 

## Finally if it has a flue we added to the 21 

## vented hearth product sample and if it is flue-less 22 

## we add it to the vent-less hearth product sample.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## The vented sample was 541 households representative 2 

## of 4.67 million households nationally. When the 3 

## vent-less sample was 171 households representative of 4 

## 1.83 households nationally, yes question? 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 6 

## MR. DAY: The issue with the RECs data as 7 

## near as I can tell the only gas hearth products that 8 

## are covered by the RECs data at all are fireplaces 9 

## that are used for secondary heating -- and there's no 10 

## data on inputs, there's no data on the presence or 11 

## absence of pilot lights. There is no information on 12 

## pilot light use patterns, there is some limited data 13 

## on product use patterns, product use frequency but to 14 

## me the issue that 15 

## leaps out is that fireplaces that are used for 16 

## secondary heating are a very small fraction of 17 

## fireplaces so the data is not even representative of 18 

## fireplaces and I can tell you that if there's any 19 

## resemblance between that and data for patio heaters 20 

## it's random. 21 

## I mean there is absolutely nothing to link 22 

## you know this data for any other product and I don'tNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## understand, maybe I'm missing something in the RECs 2 

## data and there is all this information about other 3 

## products I don't know, there's nothing I can find and 4 

## my perception from looking at it is that you are 5 

## taking data set for an extremely narrow range of 6 

## products and just applying it to everything because 7 

## there is no other numbers, am I missing data? 8 

## MR. SIAP: Well RECs does include the 9 

## fireplace only but we use it to establish the house, 10 

## the characteristics of the households themselves, we 11 

## don't use it for studying pilot market share or 12 

## behavior, any of that so. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 14 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz, Barton if you 15 

## are right -- Barton, if you are right doesn't that 16 

## mean this stops at the first diamond? 17 

## MR. DAY: Yeah. 18 

## MR. BORTZ: That's it. 19 

## MR. DAY: Yeah by definition well it's the 20 

## first diamond is yes. 21 

## MR. BORTZ: It's everything that there is. 22 

## MR. DAY: It's just that all the otherNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## products drop out there. 2 

## MR. BORTZ: Everything's out then. 3 

## MR. DAY: Every category drops out because 4 

## fireplaces used for space heating is -- 5 

## MR. BORTZ: Is the only thing they have. 6 

## MR. BROOKS: Can you restate how what the 7 

## specifics are in RECs? 8 

## MR. SIAP: So um although that's what's 9 

## the diamond says and that's strictly how the question 10 

## is asked the RECs provides a measurement of the fuel 11 

## consumed as well and if we look at the number of 12 

## units identified in RECs it's not a small portion of 13 

## all hearth product shipments, it's a large portion 14 

## relative to the shipment so maybe this document could 15 

## be labeled better. 16 

## MR. DAY: I looked at the questionnaire 17 

## and the questionnaire on residential energy use, the 18 

## only question that addresses any of the products we 19 

## are talking about is fireplaces used for heating. 20 

## The data summaries at the website that you linked us 21 

## to in the notice are just fireplaces used for 22 

## secondary heating.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## If there's some data on any other product 2



## -- 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That would probably be the 4 

## majority of what we are talking about here, I mean 5 

## it's houses that have a gas for example -- have a gas 6 

## furnace and they have a fireplace, a gas fireplace of 7 

## whatever type we sell out there. 8 

## RECs would consider that secondary heating 9 

## because their primary heater is their gas furnace. 10 

## MR. DAY: Well it actually doesn't you can 11 

## look at the total of single family homes -- 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 13 

## MR. DAY: That are accounted for and 14 

## fireplaces used for secondary heating and you can add 15 

## up wood and gas and propane and you can add up all 16 

## the categories of fireplaces and I forget the total 17 

## single family households, like 78 million is what 18 

## the RECs data assumes and there's like 4 million 19 

## fireplaces total. 20 

## And for the last 30 years or more about 21 

## right at 50% of all newly constructed single family 22 

## homes have fireplaces so the 35 plus millionNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## fireplaces all but like 4 and I don't remember the 2 

## numbers off the top of my head. I think that's right 3 

## all but 4 are missing from the data side. 4 

## Well they are not missing from the data 5 

## side because there is a category for products that 6 

## are used for secondary heating which is where the 7 

## vast majority of all the products that we are talking 8 

## about would fall. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: James go ahead with your 10 

## comment? 11 

## MR. HOUCK: This is James Houck. Yes 12 

## there is a couple of issues with the data set. One 13 

## is it's based on the consumer's response they are 14 

## asked if they use their fireplace for secondary heat. 15 

## The rule of thumb, working with fireplaces in 16 

## residential homes is about a third aren't used, about 17 

## a third are used for aesthetics and a third are truly 18 

## used for a secondary heat source. But very few 19 

## people use a fireplace for a cooling effect. 20 

## When you ask a person that uses it 21 

## primarily for aesthetics they say oh yes secondary 22 

## heat so that puts an incredible uncertainty in thisNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## number because it is not really people that are using 2 

## the secondary heat. When someone asks you do you use 3 

## your fireplace for secondary heat source I say yes. 4 

## The other issue is it doesn't distinguish between 5 

## fireplaces that have an insert in them or not. Of 6 

## course a fireplace insert is more designed for 7 

## heating than I guess what you would call a true 8 

## fireplace so there is a pre-disposition for this 9 

## number to include fireplace inserts, not just the 10 

## whole universe of fireplaces. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. 12 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: You have to remember, 13 

## this is Greg Rosenquist form LBNL is that we are 14 

## using RECs to create a building sample for all vented 15 

## hearth products and all unvented hearth products and 16 

## so we are using that same building sample for vented 17 

## gas logs and vented gas fireplaces as a basis for our 18 

## analysis when we do the lifecycle cost analysis. 19 

## Where we get that weighting correctly in 20 

## terms of the market share of each product is when we 21 

## go back into the shipments and national impact 22 

## analysis. Here with the lifecycle cost analysis weNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## are trying to determine what percentage of consumers 2 

## would benefit or burden from replacing their standing 3 

## pilot with intermittent pilot ignition device. 4 

## So I hope that's clear again we are just 5 

## trying to create what is a representative building 6 

## sample with sort of sparse information that we have 7 

## from RECs. So we can perform our lifecycle cost and 8 

## payback period. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie get close to that 10 

## microphone. 11 

## ` MR. BORTZ: You said you 12 

## are trying to figure out the percentage that would be 13 

## helped by going to an intermittent pilot system, 14 

## isn't that 100%? 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I say benefit what I mean 16 

## is on a cost basis right. If the benefits of the 17 

## energy savings outweigh the increased cost of the 18 

## product. 19 

## MR. BORTZ: Okay. 20 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: That's what I mean. 21 

## MR. SIAP: Okay so moving on. In our 22 

## energy use determination the next term is theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## ignition system representative power. This is 2 

## determined in the engineering analysis, we have a 3 

## table here listing the representative power used for 4 

## each hearth product type by standing pilot, 5 

## intermittent pilot and also for the hearth product 6 

## main burner, yes? 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question Steve 8 

## Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute. You are 9 

## showing an ignition wattage of 50 watts that's across 10 

## every single product, there is no variation, is that 11 

## like an average value. The reason I am asking is I 12 

## was over a neighbor's house and they had a huge 13 

## propane grill, gas grill, sorry don't want to get 14 

## anyone mad at me it was a gas grill and they were 15 

## having trouble with the ignition so they changed out 16 

## a AA battery as I recall so I see 50 watts, is that 17 

## the nameplate rating or is the actual wattage on 18 

## there when they are putting in the ignition when the 19 

## actual ignition is on? 20 

## MR. SIAP: That's an average it may be a 21 

## conservatively high average but yes it is meant to be 22 

## an average.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again Steve Rosenstock, 2 

## again was that based on nameplate or actually like a 3 

## watt meter? 4 

## MR. SIAP: I would have to defer to the 5 

## engineering analysis team to -- 6 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock EEI. I 7 

## looked in the technical support document and I wasn't 8 

## finding anything, thanks. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim? 10 

## MR. KUPSH: I think the actual opposite, 11 

## if you look at your unvented fireplace, inserts, 12 

## stoves, standing pilot and unvented gas log sets the 13 

## gas consumed by both of those applications is 14 

## effectively the same, more of the same pilot, they 15 

## cannot be different they use the same amount of gas. 16 

## And so the fact that you are off by 50% on 17 

## the unvented fireplace insert stove makes me believe 18 

## that there was not any true testing done because it 19 

## is unrealistic, those should be very, very close to 20 

## each other. It's effectively the same pilot, one has 21 

## an extra device attached to it but the burning is all 22 

## the same. So I have a hard time with the accuracyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## there. 2 

## MR. SIAP: Okay. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Barton? 4 

## MR. DAY: Yes where did the main burner 5 

## BTU numbers come from and why do they matter? I'm 6 

## having a hard time understanding what the relevance 7 

## on this is? 8 

## MR. SIAP: Well the relevance of them is 9 

## coming up there is very important in determining the 10 

## intermittent pilot operating hours, it will come in a 11 

## couple of slides. As far as the magnitude how they 12 

## are determined I would defer to the engineering 13 

## analysis team. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone, Justin? 15 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Justin Elszasz, Navigant 16 

## Consulting. The main burner numbers are again 17 

## averages and there are two primary sources to that. 18 

## One was again the product data base that I mentioned 19 

## earlier that included the model name information as 20 

## well as ignition type and you know the number that 21 

## you see there, the main burner fuel input. 22 

## And the other was they were asking throughNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## a confidential manufacturer of these. 2 

## MR. DAY: When you say I'm sorry this is 3 

## Barton Day, and you said data based are you referring 4 

## to just information you collected from literature? 5 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Yes. 6 

## MR. DAY: So no adjustment well obviously 7 

## no adjustment for product shipments and so forth it's 8 

## just how many products have this and how many have 9 

## that? 10 

## MR. ELSZASZ: Right and again it was also 11 

## refined during the interview process so manufacturers 12 

## were allowed the opportunity to comment on that 13 

## number. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 15 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie, you have 50,000 I 16 

## don't know if it matters yet but you have 50,000 for 17 

## outdoor fireplaces I think somewhere else you had 25. 18 

## If you can find it back -- it's a different number. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Are you following him? 20 

## MR. SIAP: I'm not sure what you are 21 

## referring to it might have been -- 22 

## MR. BORTZ: An outdoor I'm sorry, Leslie.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## The main burner in the outdoor fireplaces uses 50,000 2 

## BTU's. I think somewhere else you said it used 25. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Oh I see, okay. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I've gone back in the 5 

## whole slide deck this is the first time I have seen 6 

## this number. 7 

## MR. BORTZ: It may have been in your TSD 8 

## or somewhere. I don't know if it matters. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay let's move on. 10 

## MR. SIAP: Okay next here is the operating 11 

## hours of the pilot. First we are going to go over 12 

## the standing pilot operating hours. DOE identified 13 

## three modes for gas fired hearth products in the 14 

## field study. 40% of users left their standing pilot 15 

## on all year, 20% turned their pilot off daily when in 16 

## use and the remaining 40% mode three had higher 17 

## variation with many turning their standing pilot off 18 

## at the end of the heating season. Question Barton? 19 

## MR. DAY: Barton Day. The -- I mean the 20 

## obvious question is where did the data come from for 21 

## this. You site a study and I guess my first question 22 

## is do you actually have the study and if so can it beNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## made available for review and comment? The magazine 2 

## article just suggests that there are just suggests 3 

## numbers for fireplaces you know for what was on the 4 

## market, actually what was installed or in use 20 5 

## years ago. 6 

## MR. SIAP: So we have -- the numbers in 7 

## that article are what we have. We also found more 8 

## recent survey data, not field data 2007 housing 9 

## environment study shows that 44% of users turned 10 

## their standing pilot off at the end of the heating 11 

## season but -- 12 

## MR. DAY: I'm sorry what's the additional 13 

## information I couldn't quite hear you. 14 

## MR. SIAP: The housing and environment 15 

## study in 2007. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz. It said in 2007 17 

## that 44% of people turned their pilots off at the end 18 

## of the season? 19 

## MR. SIAP: Yes. 20 

## MR. BORTZ: And you are going to say in 21 

## 2021 that number is going to be 40%? 22 

## MR. SIAP: Well I bring that up as it isNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## consistent with the 1997 number but if you have 2 

## different data we would be happy to take it into 3 

## consideration. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 5 

## MR. DAY: This is Barton Day and that's 6 

## the issue is there is no data. There is not a single 7 

## data point that I am aware of as to you know used 8 

## patterns of pilot lights on. Any products other than 9 

## this very limited data on fireplaces with an old 10 

## design. If there is a more recent study that 11 

## addresses any of these products it would be good to 12 

## see that but again you know a point we made early on 13 

## is these products, they are all different and a 14 

## pattern of consumer behavior with respect to one type 15 

## of product is not necessarily going to have anything 16 

## to do with a pattern of behavior as to other 17 

## products. 18 

## And one of the key issues here that looks 19 

## like was not considered at all is that the -- one of 20 

## the key factors influencing consumer behavior is ease 21 

## of pilot light control and you know it's obvious that 22 

## if you have to crawl on your hands and knees with aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## screwdriver and a flashlight to operate a pilot 2 

## light, one could imagine that that's not going to 3 

## happen all the time. 4 

## If it takes the flip of a switch on a 5 

## handheld remote like turning off the light as you 6 

## leave a room, a whole different ballgame and those 7 

## controls are out there they exist, they are 8 

## increasingly prevalent and for some styles of product 9 

## you know the controls are so easy that the 10 

## presumption that pilots are going to be left on 11 

## indefinitely is just incredible. 12 

## And without having any data on any 13 

## products without any information on the configuration 14 

## of the pilot light controls I would say there is 15 

## absolutely no evidence to permit any analysis based 16 

## on pilot light use patterns and I understand in your 17 

## analysis you have got blanks to fill in but you can't 18 

## fill in blanks without data and there's not data. 19 

## MR. SIAP: So there is data and we are 20 

## presenting it here and so this is an ask of whoever 21 

## to provide more recent data. So you have asserted 22 

## that this new product is becoming more prevalent.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DAY: This industry has no data. 2 

## MR. SIAP: Okay so to back up your 3 

## assertion there must be something. 4 

## MR. DAY: The assertion is there is no 5 

## data. 6 

## MR. SIAP: No but he asserted that this 7 

## new On Demand technology is running you know 8 

## penetrating into the market. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Why would people pay for 10 

## it if they weren't going to use it. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, this gentleman here 12 

## please say your name. Do you want to get in here? 13 

## MR. REOTT: Raymond Reott. The slide that 14 

## is up on the board right now has the wrong numbers 15 

## according to the TSD. According to the TSD table 7 16 

## 3.1 page 7-6 only 20% of the people leave their 17 

## standing pilot on all year and 40% turn them off 18 

## daily so those first two figures on the chart on the 19 

## wall there are reversed actually. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, yes James? 21 

## MR. HOUCK: James Houck. I would like to 22 

## comment what Barton just talked about. I want toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## point out that that study was done in Canada in 1997 2 

## and I don't have it in front of me but I believe 3 

## there was only 14 homes that did not turn their pilot 4 

## light off. Now the statistics on that -- 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Was that the end of the 6 

## season? 7 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes, I believe that is how it 8 

## was in the study I would have to look at it again to 9 

## be sure on that. Something like that, the statistics 10 

## are staggering when you consider there is probably 11 

## around 14 million plus or minus gas fireplaces in the 12 

## United States so that's .0001 percent of the total 13 

## population that you are basing this assumption on. 14 

## In Canada in 1997 so I would say that means nothing. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you yes Dana? 16 

## MR. MOROZ: Dana Moroz, Wolf Steel. I 17 

## would also like to make the comment that based on 18 

## this information or the date this information was 19 

## accrued is like going back to caveman days. We live 20 

## in the information world. As a manufacturer I can 21 

## tell you we do a great deal to educate consumers 22 

## today of both the use of the pilot and how to turn itNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## off that wasn't available back then. You can go on 2 

## YouTube and find information on how to turn off 3 

## almost any pilot, that didn't exist in 1997 so to 4 

## just draw those numbers out and say they are still 5 

## valid today lacks credibility. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim? 7 

## MR. KUPSH: Jim Kupsh. To add to what 8 

## Dana is saying is if you take a look at and as a 9 

## control manufacturer, the percentage of non-standing 10 

## pilot IPI appliances in 1997 I doubt it reach 1 or 11 

## 2%. It is significantly higher today and all of 12 

## those appliances turn off the pilot on every single 13 

## cycle or have the ability to do that. 14 

## And so to in any way suggest that this 15 

## data from 1997 can be even considered as a framework 16 

## to what's occurring today is unrealistic. 17 

## ` ` MR. BROOKMAN: Okay yes 18 

## Peter? 19 

## ` MR. DIRCKS: Yes Peter HHT. You mentioned 20 

## that the study from 2007 is the housing and 21 

## environment study who was the actual source, I mean 22 

## what's the company that put it out?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. SIAP: StatCan distributed the report 2 

## citing that study. 3 

## MR. DIRCKS: I'm sorry I couldn't hear 4 

## you. 5 

## MR. SIAP: StatCan provided the source, 6 

## provided the report, the source. 7 

## MR. DIRCKS: All right and I have a 8 

## followed comment. I think what you are hearing from 9 

## most of the people in the room here not only on this 10 

## issue but even the one earlier on distribution and 11 

## even just based on the energy used by the consumers 12 

## is it really does go back to this definitional issue 13 

## of what is the definition of the products and what is 14 

## the intended scope of my opinion because consumers 15 

## are buying all of these products for different 16 

## reasons and that was articulated earlier. 17 

## There's a different between what a 18 

## consumer is looking for in a gas fireplace versus an 19 

## insert versus a gas log so I think there is actually 20 

## a theme here in the last three topics that we have 21 

## covered by lumping all of this together, over 22 

## simplifying and using data that's you know, 15, 18Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## years old is what's really giving us a lot of 2 

## questions with the integrity of the information as 3 

## well as how we can best respond. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay James? 5 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes James Houck. Regarding 6 

## that Canadian data in 2007 again I don't have it in 7 

## front of me so my number is off a little bit but they 8 

## had three categories of responses in that survey they 9 

## turned their pilot light off in the summer, or they 10 

## didn't turn their pilot light off in the summer and 11 

## no response. 12 

## And there were more no responses I believe 13 

## or at least in the same magnitude of the other two so 14 

## again that data is very questionable. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 16 

## MR. STANONIK: One little comment, I'm 17 

## hearing a lot of references to Canadian studies. I 18 

## just want to make sure everyone is aware that when it 19 

## comes to vent-free gas fired products, those products 20 

## in fact are not allowed, or I will say they are not 21 

## allowed in Canada so any of the Canadian studies that 22 

## look at fireplace pilot use have no relevance toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## vent-free products because in fact they are not a 2 

## Canadian product. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks Frank. Bart? 4 

## MR. DAY: Yeah I just wanted to make a 5 

## general comment about anecdotal evidence because you 6 

## know as we looked at this issue and tried to get some 7 

## sense of what is realistic we have concluded that we 8 

## -- that it's an incredible challenge because there is 9 

## substantial evidence that when you look at fireplaces 10 

## as a group that as many as half of all fireplaces are 11 

## used not at all or rarely. 12 

## Again we are talking about a product that 13 

## performs its primary function just by sitting there. 14 

## And that's what fireplaces are. They are an 15 

## architectural feature and the data on fireplaces in 16 

## general is right around 50%. 5-0 are not used 17 

## regularly at all. Either are used not at all or are 18 

## used rarely and the problem you have with anecdotal 19 

## evidence when we talk internally what any particular 20 

## manufacturer sees is experience with people that are 21 

## using the product, so they are only seeing half the 22 

## data set to start with so whatever impression theyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## get is going to overstate the issues with respect to 2 

## anything related to product use because they are not 3 

## seeing the substantial population of products that 4 

## aren't used. 5 

## Survey data is subject to the same 6 

## problem. Characteristically when you do survey data 7 

## the people who are actually using products are much 8 

## more likely to respond than the people who don't and 9 

## so everything is skewed in the direction of inflating 10 

## anecdotal or survey data and so you know reliable 11 

## data about issues like pilot light use is frankly 12 

## just wanting and I think the other significant issue 13 

## is that two of the major factors that control the 14 

## outcome there are consumer attitudes which have been 15 

## changing rapidly and continue to change. 16 

## And product design which has evolved 17 

## rapidly and continues to change and so to -- if we 18 

## had reliable data from you know a year ago it 19 

## wouldn't be reliable data for two years from now let 20 

## alone five years from now because we see the trends. 21 

## It's a very difficult issue to get at and 22 

## the sentiment of the industry is that you knowNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## concerns based on this model of you know the pilot 2 

## lights that nobody changes is just -- it's not an 3 

## applicable model to products that are coming on the 4 

## market today or that will be on the market five years 5 

## from now and so there's a real question as to whether 6 

## there is any issue to address through regulation at 7 

## all. 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay moving on. 9 

## MR. SIAP: Still in the operating hours 10 

## now we move on to the intermittent pilot operating 11 

## hours covered by these two equations here. The 12 

## intermittent pilot hours are determined using the 13 

## main burner operating hours and the IPI on time per 14 

## main burner operating hours. This is determined by 15 

## the main burner cycles per hour and the operation per 16 

## main burner cycle. 17 

## The average main burner cycle time is 18 

## determined -- is assumed to be similar to similar 19 

## equipment, direct heating equipment where we assume 20 

## an average main burner cycle time of 20 minutes which 21 

## leads to three main burner cycles per hour. DOE 22 

## assumes that an IPI operation per cycle of 30 secondsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## and this results in an average IPI operating hours of 2 

## 3.9 hours per year. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 4 

## MR. DAY: Yes these assumptions come out 5 

## of the test procedure for direct heating equipment. 6 

## Several years ago we submitted a submission and a 7 

## test procedure proceeding and we have submitted it to 8 

## DOE several times since then. This has absolutely no 9 

## relevance to hearth products. This is a strictly 10 

## utilitarian heating appliance operating on a 11 

## thermostat. This is absolutely has got nothing to do 12 

## with any hearth product, they just don't operate like 13 

## that. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dana? 15 

## MR. MOROZ: Dana from Wolf Steel. I would 16 

## agree with Barton on that point the fact is that most 17 

## homeowners use these as decorative appliances, they 18 

## don't turn it on to cycle the heat, they turn it on 19 

## because they want to enjoy the ambience, the cold 20 

## temperature outside allows them to do so and they 21 

## don't want to watch it come on and off for 20 minutes 22 

## every hour, they want to have it on for several hoursNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## while they are sitting there enjoying it and that's 2 

## how fireplaces are used. 3 

## InterCan went through this recently in 4 

## Canada trying to evaluate the same usage and was 5 

## unable to define it. When they looked to themselves 6 

## and surveyed within their own organization they found 7 

## that was consistent with the proposed usage. That 8 

## most users leave it on for an extended period of time 9 

## to enjoy the ambience, not to heat. 10 

## MR. SIAP: Right so just briefly the we 11 

## realize that the hearth product and burner cycle may 12 

## be longer. Here we choose to kind of potentially 13 

## overstate the energy use of the IPI to be 14 

## conservative in our estimates. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank? 16 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. So 17 

## the slide says that the average main burner cycle 18 

## time is 20 minutes and I understand it to be the 19 

## burner on time? 20 

## MR. SIAP: Yes. 21 

## MR. STANONIK: Well by the fact you are 22 

## calling it a cycle that suggests that there is aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## burner off time which there is if it is 2 

## thermostatically controlled and if that is the case 3 

## then you do not have -- the only way you get three 4 

## main burner cycles in an hour is in fact if you have 5 

## three consecutive burner cycles of 20 minutes which 6 

## is basically one burner operating of one hour. 7 

## So you have got a little flaw here in how 8 

## you have analyzed this because what you haven't 9 

## mentioned is okay if it is operating this way what is 10 

## the off cycle and if in fact and then one other point 11 

## that has just been brought up here okay. In the 12 

## discussion of how people use decorative equipment it 13 

## is totally appropriate. They just want to watch the 14 

## flame okay. 15 

## But if this is a vent-free product okay 16 

## they can't let it run forever because the room will 17 

## just get too hot. They will either open the window 18 

## and then I guess heat the outdoors or they in fact 19 

## will cycle the equipment or turn it down or whatever 20 

## because again there is no way around it, a vent-free 21 

## product will heat the room and it doesn't take very 22 

## long for going from comfortable hot to too hot and soNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## it's a whole different situation of how that main 2 

## burner is going to operate. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Sue? 4 

## MS. WALKER: All I was just going to say 5 

## on the vent-free products overwhelmingly they are 6 

## thermostatically controlled and cycle automatically. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay yes Rett? 8 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. The ANSI 9 

## standards for vented decorative appliances they do 10 

## not permit the use of thermostats so you will not 11 

## have this type of cycling with decorative products. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Sue is that correct? Yeah 13 

## okay, Barton nothing there -- okay. 14 

## MR. SIAP: Next I have how we determine 15 

## the main burner operating hours. Now that the 16 

## previously stated cycles per hour is for main burner 17 

## operating hours not hours in general so the main 18 

## burner operating hours are determined using the 19 

## overall hearth product energy use as listed in RECs 20 

## 2009. The main burner input capacity as determined 21 

## in the engineering analysis and several adjustment 22 

## factors where we adjust the heating and cooling loadNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## to project -- to account for 2021 of rejected 2 

## building shell efficiency as well as 2021 average 3 

## climate conditions. Yes? 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 5 

## When you are saying building shell you are saying 6 

## residential or commercial or a combination of both? 7 

## MR. SIAP: Residential. 8 

## MR. DAY: This is Barton Day again the 9 

## whole issue of burner operating hours the appendix of 10 

## testimony that we are talking about a minute ago has 11 

## assumptions that are completely out of whack for 12 

## hearth products again I completely -- looking at a 13 

## different type of product. But these numbers you are 14 

## starting with the RECs data again so you are starting 15 

## with the small fraction of fireplaces that are used 16 

## for secondary heating you know for most of the 17 

## products we are talking about the pattern is going to 18 

## be different. 19 

## For fireplaces in general the pattern is 20 

## going to be different and so you know we don't -- 21 

## this is not producing data that is going to be 22 

## representative of any of the products that we areNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## talking about and that's really the problem is that 2 

## the operational use data is way off and it doesn't 3 

## connect with pilot light use data anyway. It seems 4 

## like we are assuming some use pattern of pilot lights 5 

## without any evidence on the basis of product use 6 

## information for which we have no evidence. 7 

## MR. SIAP: The final term is the secondary 8 

## effects or the impact of the pilot heat on the base 9 

## heating or cooling. Secondary effects are determined 10 

## in these equations listed here the first term is the 11 

## energy use of the pilot, this is just the energy 12 

## consumed by the pilot as the product of the power 13 

## consumption and the operating hours. 14 

## Next is the fraction of useful heat from 15 

## the pilot which is the distribution based on another 16 

## field study and it's assumed to be more for unvented 17 

## units and less for decorative units and finally DOE 18 

## takes into account the efficiency of the main space 19 

## heating or cooling appliance depending on season. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 21 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 22 

## Electric Institute. When I looked in the technicalNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## support document table 7.3.6 it talks about the 2 

## fraction of the heat of useful heat. I'm seeing 3 

## ranges depending on the product of 1 to 47% or 0 to 4 

## 23% or for the unvented products 2 to 94% so you were 5 

## talking about a distribution based on a field study. 6 

## It's based on a Canadian field study and as Frank 7 

## said the unvented products aren't even allowed right 8 

## so in terms of the distributions how did you 9 

## determine -- or I'll ask what is the shape of the 10 

## distributions and how did you do it for unvented 11 

## products? 12 

## MR. SIAP: So I will start with vented and 13 

## then go to unvented. Vented products is a triangular 14 

## distribution where the upper bound is established as 15 

## the number determined in that study as that was one 16 

## household that had the furnace thermostat coincident 17 

## in the same room and basically right next to the 18 

## fireplace. 19 

## So we assumed that that is one of the most 20 

## impactful scenarios for a furnace and a hearth 21 

## product interacting. For the unvented units we 22 

## recognize that there is a potential for higher, muchNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## higher impact on furnace use so we assumed double. 2 

## If that number should be something else we welcome 3 

## comment on that. 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock EEI. So 5 

## you said the unvented was -- you also assumed a 6 

## triangular distribution? 7 

## MR. SIAP: Also triangular yes. 8 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: So where was the peak of 9 

## the triangle just out of curiosity within that? 10 

## MR. SIAP: It's symmetric so -- 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: By 23 and so in the first 12 

## case it would be -- Steve Rosenstock, EEI so it would 13 

## be 23 in the case of 1 to 47 and for the zero to 23 14 

## it might be 11 -- 15 

## MR. SIAP: Right. 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then 2 to 94 it might 17 

## be 48 or something like that, 48. 18 

## MR. SIAP: Right in that range. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead Frank? 20 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. 21 

## In the case specific case of unvented vent-free 22 

## products I would strongly urge you to essentiallyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## scrap this analysis and just start by what I would 2 

## call first principals and the first principal is that 3 

## on a vent-free heater all of the pilot energy during 4 

## the heating season is going into the space. That is 5 

## installed in a room or wherever and it is intended to 6 

## provide heat to that area so in fact all of the pilot 7 

## energy because it can go nowhere else is going into 8 

## the space so it is all useful heat. 9 

## Now if you want to get into an analysis 10 

## and figure out what is going on with infiltration and 11 

## some other things you can do that but to suggest that 12 

## there is a range for a pilot on a vent-free heater is 13 

## to borrow a phrase from Leslie, ridiculous. There's 14 

## no place else for the heat to go but into the space. 15 

## It is 100% putting BTU's into that space. 16 

## Now during the heating season you could 17 

## you know, you could do some analysis that might look 18 

## at bins and say okay how many hours are in the 19 

## heating season, am I really wanting heat as opposed 20 

## to not wanting -- all those things but to take this 21 

## study that you have done in Canada and then make some 22 

## assumptions and look at some distributions justNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## doesn't fit. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? Okay, yes James 3 

## please. 4 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes I would like to expand on 5 

## that a little bit. First of all I think it would be 6 

## fair in your equation to have a plus or minus in the 7 

## secondary effects because I believe you would 8 

## probably have more benefits in the winter and losses 9 

## in the summer. A couple of other things about that, 10 

## one is I would be surprised and sometimes I am 11 

## surprised that you have taken into account the 12 

## magnitude of the heating benefit in the winter. 13 

## The standard in the industry used by the 14 

## U.S. weather service is heating degree days and 15 

## that's any day that has an average temperature below 16 

## 65 degrees Fahrenheit that is deemed that heating is 17 

## needed. So I would argue anywhere a fireplace is 18 

## located and the number of days that are below 65 19 

## degrees the energy is not wasted, in fact it is used 20 

## to heat the dwelling. 21 

## The other component on that, is again it 22 

## was alluded to a little earlier, it is not a linearNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## fashion, in other words if there is a hundred million 2 

## BTU's of energy put out, used by the pilot light the 3 

## benefit to the home can be much greater than that. 4 

## Fireplaces to have open chimneys for example a gas 5 

## log set put in an old masonry fireplace -- if the 6 

## draft is lost and becomes negative and which you have 7 

## air infiltrating into the home that air can be very 8 

## cold and causing your main heating source such as a 9 

## forced air furnace to work a lot harder. 10 

## So I would argue that probably the 11 

## secondary benefits of a pilot light are not 12 

## adequately taken into consideration. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 

## MR. SIAP: So finally we have the results 15 

## of the energy use analysis. The top table lists the 16 

## standing pilot fuel use by product type. The bottom 17 

## table lists the energy use by the intermittent pilot. 18 

## The first column is the energy use direct electricity 19 

## use directly by the intermittent pilot. 20 

## The third column is the space heating fuel 21 

## impact -- this is the increased energy use by the 22 

## furnace or the fuel used in heating appliance due toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the lack of useful heat from the standing pilot. 2 

## Similarly for those households which have an electric 3 

## resistant heat pump space heating appliance the 4 

## fourth column takes those electrical impacts into 5 

## account. 6 

## And finally the last column takes into 7 

## account, lists the benefits of the lack of the 8 

## additional cooling load from the standing pilot which 9 

## results in reduced air conditioning or other cooling 10 

## operating hours, yes? 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Steve Rosenstock? 12 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 13 

## Electric Institute. Again thank you for that, that 14 

## kind of the breakout. I guess my thought is again 15 

## just looking at table 731 it says that in your in a 16 

## technical support document it says year round 17 

## standing pilot is 20% of the population. So for 18 

## these numbers in the table these numbers are just 19 

## for, well I'll just start with the cooling, for the 20 

## space cooling that's only for the 20% of homes that 21 

## are actually running the pilot in the summer time. 22 

## Am I correct in that assumption?Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. SIAP: For that part yes. 2 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay the next question I 3 

## was going to have is you know especially for a lot of 4 

## these products where you know the pilot is going to 5 

## be inside the fireplace and in many cases it is 6 

## behind a glass door as well I know you said the 7 

## fraction if like only 20% of the heat is actually 8 

## getting into the space and it starts out like I'll 9 

## say 700 to 1000 BTU's you are talking about you know 10 

## a couple hundred BTU's where the cooling load of the 11 

## house might be 36,000 BTU's per hour at a peak time 12 

## on a peak July day. That's kind of within the noise, 13 

## are you saying that the thermostat has to go on and 14 

## off just because of that extra couple of hundred 15 

## BTU's? 16 

## MR. SIAP: We acknowledge that it is a 17 

## really small portion of the cooling load but we 18 

## account for the analysis -- for the heat input into 19 

## this space the same as the cooling and the heating 20 

## season. 21 

## MR. KUPSH: Jim Kupsh. The 20% -- that 22 

## 20% is it calculated off of 100% of the fireplaces orNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## is that 20% calculated off of 20% of the fireplaces 2 

## that have a standing pilot system? In other words 3 

## are you subtracting out all of the existing 4 

## fireplaces that currently have an IPI system? 5 

## MR. SIAP: So these results are presented 6 

## separately so this is for only the standing pilot or 7 

## intermittent pilot so that 20% is only standing 8 

## pilot. 9 

## MR. KUPSH: But the calculation was based 10 

## on 1997 when the entire market was standing pilot, 11 

## how 40% of the installations and it's growing as we 12 

## get to 2020 are not standing pilot, is that taken 13 

## into consideration? 14 

## MR. SIAP: So we used the 1997 report to 15 

## provide some kind of data point for the behavior with 16 

## standing pilot only. So we applied those modes to -- 17 

## MR. KUPSH: I understand but my statement 18 

## or question is if you use 1997 as the 20% then you 19 

## have to use it only the appliances that are now 20 

## standing pilot. If you use it as a -- if you take 21 

## into account for all of them now you then have to 22 

## take into account that 40% of the appliances noNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## longer have standing pilot. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: What he is saying is the 3 

## behavior is constant not the stock of standing 4 

## pilots. 5 

## MR. KAPSH: How can you say the behavior 6 

## is -- 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: 40% of the lower number is 8 

## standing pilot. 9 

## MR. KAPSH: You have no data to say the 10 

## behavior is constant you are basing it on 1997 data 11 

## in which there was no IPI applications. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And that's fine no, no, 13 

## no. Let's just think about standing pilots. So in 14 

## 2007 or '97 you had a population of people with 15 

## standing pilots. 40% of them said we don't turn it 16 

## off. Fast forward to now the number of people with 17 

## standing pilots is a lot lower but of that lower 18 

## number you still have 40% of them that keep the 19 

## standing pilot on. 20 

## Behavior is the same of people with 21 

## standing pilot unless -- 22 

## MR. KAPSH: So are you saying the 20% isNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## only standing pilot applications? 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 3 

## MR. KAPSH: And you subtracted out form 4 

## the whole population. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 6 

## MR. KAPSH: Okay thank you. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 8 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. I would 9 

## like to point out that since that is a Canadian study 10 

## Canada is north of the United States of America. If 11 

## you recall in my comments -- opening comments I had a 12 

## dealer from Michigan which is just south of Canada 13 

## but still in the northern part of the United States 14 

## that suggested that standing pilot usage is going to 15 

## be greater in the northern climates and what it would 16 

## be in the southern part of the United States so I 17 

## would like to just point out that this is what I 18 

## consider to be a discrepancy in the use of these 19 

## Canadian numbers for making policy for the United 20 

## States. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 22 

## MR. DAY: Yeah I just want to go back toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the point John when you were commenting a moment ago 2 

## you said but the behavior is the same and there's no 3 

## reason to believe that is the case and the reason for 4 

## that is in the article itself and again if you guys 5 

## have the study we would love to see the study, all we 6 

## had access to was the article that you linked to in 7 

## the notice. 8 

## And the notice states as one of its 9 

## principal conclusions that the ease of pilot light 10 

## control has a significant effect on consumer behavior 11 

## and they picture a product as part of the art for the 12 

## article and say well if you have easy controls like 13 

## this product it has a significant effect on pilot use 14 

## guess what, that product is now the norm. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And it's not a standing 16 

## pilot light in your mind. 17 

## MR. DAY: No it is a standing pilot light. 18 

## I'm saying of standing pilot light products now and 19 

## this is why it would have been great if you guys 20 

## could have come to the expo because if you had walked 21 

## around the expo you would have seen you know you flip 22 

## open a panel there's a dial, there's a button -- it'sNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## as easy as a barbeque grill and this is the bulk of 2 

## the product now. It's not -- it's not crawling 3 

## around on your hands and knees with a screwdriver and 4 

## a flashlight anymore so behavior is going to be 5 

## completely different. 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We are happy to take the 7 

## data, the bulk of the product is different so tell us 8 

## what the bulk is and we will implement it. 9 

## MR. DAY: There is no data, that's the 10 

## problem. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Well there's a showroom 12 

## full of it. 13 

## MR. DAY: You mean in terms of model. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean before you 15 

## criticized and I don't mean in a negative way you 16 

## know the product offerings and models available was a 17 

## bad way of gathering data but you are also saying if 18 

## we went to the HPBA show which we tried to the 19 

## weather actually screwed it up. 20 

## MR. DAY: I didn't mean anything -- 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: But if we walked around 22 

## the floor and just took a survey of the product thereNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## to use your point would that be okay to do, you know 2 

## we collect data -- 3 

## MR. DAY: It would at least have given you 4 

## a flavor. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean we use product 6 

## literature, everything that we can get our hands on. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie please? 8 

## MR. BORTZ: I have mentioned to you 9 

## several times that we have piezos on some of our 10 

## pilot systems and the only reason people would buy 11 

## them and spend the extra money would be to turn the 12 

## pilot on and off, you haven't considered that at all 13 

## and we didn't have that in 1997 and we had started in 14 

## 2007. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to the comment 16 

## boxes. Here you see two comment boxes I think 17 

## perhaps we have covered both of these. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So we kind of have to move 19 

## a little bit quicker, some of us because I know there 20 

## are certain areas especially when we get to the 21 

## shipments analysis that some people have already 22 

## commented that they wanted to highlight so we areNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## going to go pretty quick through some of these, just 2 

## highlight major points. If there are certain things 3 

## you want please stop us but we are -- all of our 4 

## information is documented in the notice and in the 5 

## technical support documents. 6 

## We will always welcome your data. We are 7 

## happy to revise our analysis and/or our assumptions 8 

## that were explained in response to new data that 9 

## becomes available or any data that you are willing to 10 

## submit whether it be on the record or confidentially 11 

## through a contractor we have ways of doing that. And 12 

## since many of you have pointed out today that you 13 

## know you don't necessarily agree with some of the 14 

## data sources that have been used or some of the 15 

## assumptions however you can't just state disagreement 16 

## you actually have to explain why and perhaps you may 17 

## have data to back that up. 18 

## So if you don't might proceed but 19 

## highlight the high points, thanks. 20 

## MR. SIAP: Okay thanks. Okay so the next 21 

## section is a lifecycle cost and payback period 22 

## analysis. The purpose is to provide an economicNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## evaluation from the consumer's perspective. 2 

## Lifecycle costs or LCC's are the total consumer cost 3 

## over the life of the product. Payback period or PBP 4 

## is the time required to recover the increased 5 

## purchase price through reduced operating costs. The 6 

## LCC's determined using the equations and the 7 

## methodology -- the LCC and the PBP are determined on 8 

## those equations. The LCC's the sum of the total 9 

## installed cost and the lifetime operating cost. 10 

## The LCC savings is the difference of the 11 

## LCC and the standard in the base case and the payback 12 

## period is the portion of the change of the total 13 

## installed cost and the first year operating cost. 14 

## The same consumer sample is developed in 15 

## the building sample a few slides ago were used for 16 

## this LCC analysis. 17 

## So the graphic to walk you through the 18 

## lifecycle cost, the top bracket here kind of shows 19 

## how the total cost installed cost is developed, it is 20 

## the sum of the consumer price and the installation 21 

## costs and the lifetime operating cost is developed on 22 

## the lower half as the sum of the annual operatingNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## expenses over the lifetime discounted to the 2 

## appropriate rate and with the appropriate energy 3 

## prices. 4 

## The consumer price is determined using the 5 

## manufacturer cost and the markup. The manufacturing 6 

## and markup were discussed manufacturing costs and the 7 

## markup were discussed earlier and the results for the 8 

## average price are listed in the table below for both 9 

## standing pilot and intermittent pilot. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 11 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie Bortz, can I assume 12 

## from page -- 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Is your microphone on? 14 

## Leave it on Leslie. 15 

## MR. BORTZ: I can't I'm swearing. Can I 16 

## assume from this bottom of that chart that the cost 17 

## at some point -- that the consumer price that you 18 

## have here is $82.08? 19 

## MR. SIAP: So the consumer price is broken 20 

## up there for each ignition type so for a standing 21 

## pilot the consumer price is $165.00 and for 22 

## intermittent pilot it's $247.00.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from DOE 2 

## just to clarify when I first saw this slide I was a 3 

## little and you still may not necessarily agree which 4 

## we welcome your data and comments on but this is just 5 

## the ignition system so we have isolated the ignition 6 

## system. We are not saying this is the cost of your 7 

## product so take that shock factor away. 8 

## But there still might be a shock factor 9 

## associated with the ignitions of some but this is 10 

## what that is meant to show. This is the ignition 11 

## system only. 12 

## MR. BORTZ: Yes ma'am. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We welcome comment, like I 14 

## said we welcome comments and feedback or it's you 15 

## know and data and if anyone who wants to continue 16 

## discussions through our manufacturer process or 17 

## whatever we are welcome to that, we are open to that. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dana? 19 

## MR. MOROZ: I appreciate the invitation 20 

## Ashley but again it is data that we don't necessarily 21 

## have why look at oh what have I got right now about 22 

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## to each and every one of them will require different 2 

## diligences so I can't capture that cost. I can't 3 

## give you a nice round figure and say this is what it 4 

## is going to cost on an average, I'm sorry. I would 5 

## like to be able to but it is not available. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you moving on. 7 

## MR. SIAP: Okay so next is the 8 

## installation cost. The purpose is to represent the 9 

## labor for material necessary to install the hearth 10 

## product ignition system. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Martin Thomas has a comment 12 

## and his comment is some of the IPI pilots have a 13 

## switch that converts them to a standing pilot. The 14 

## product literature recommends leaving the pilot on in 15 

## cold weather, okay. 16 

## MR. SIAP: So this installation cost is 17 

## meant to represent the incremental and installation 18 

## costs of the ignition system only. For some standing 19 

## pilot users switching to IPI they may require an 20 

## electrical connection that is considered for a house 21 

## build prior to 1990 in addition for grounding for 22 

## older houses prior to 1960. The labor costs andNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## mechanical cost data were sourced from 2013 RS Means. 2 

## The results by task -- the average cost by task are 3 

## listed there as well as the percent of households. 4 

## Yes Barton? 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Barton? 6 

## MR. DAY: I would like to go back to that 7 

## point that just blew by so quickly and I apologize if 8 

## it is out of order but it really is essentially an 9 

## important point and that is that the proposed 10 

## standard doesn't do what the NOPR suggests that it 11 

## would do and one of either two ways and I think the 12 

## fundamental problem is that in the technical analysis 13 

## there was not an adequate appreciation of the 14 

## function that a standing pilot light performs and in 15 

## particular and this is a broader point, there was not 16 

## adequate appreciation for the importance of being 17 

## able to warm up the vent system to get proper draw on 18 

## a product before main burners are ignited and it's -- 19 

## the short answer is that's you can expect a lot of 20 

## operational problems if you simply put an IPI on a 21 

## product that's designed to operate with a standing 22 

## pilot.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## And it's a significant issue. The point 2 

## that was made a moment ago is I believe almost every 3 

## manufacturer in the industry that offers IPI offers 4 

## IPI with the ability to put a standing pilot function 5 

## on and the reason for that is to prevent these 6 

## operational problems that are typically characterized 7 

## as cold weather problems but there is a switch or a 8 

## button setting on the remote control and so the idea 9 

## that the IPI devices that are used by most of the 10 

## manufacturers would eliminate all gas consumption 11 

## except when the main burners are on is incorrect and 12 

## so the gas savings you are assuming is overstated for 13 

## that reason. 14 

## And on the flipside on the cost side the 15 

## assumption well most of your manufacturers are using 16 

## products that will satisfy the standards, that's not 17 

## true either and so you know there's the basic issue 18 

## of if you are going to allow a standing pilot 19 

## function on an IPI unit then your gas savings are 20 

## high and if you are not then your economic impacts 21 

## are way, way, way low so it is a very important point 22 

## and I apologize for taking it out of order but as weNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## got to this point I just realized we hadn't gotten to 2 

## that yet and it's a critical point. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I have one follow up to 5 

## that. Do you have an estimated fraction that the 6 

## manufacturers recommend must leave the standing pilot 7 

## on? 8 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Anybody? 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So his point is that our 10 

## savings are overstated because there is a fraction of 11 

## the market that even if you switch to an electronic 12 

## ignition would still require some type of pilot or 13 

## some type to remain on. 14 

## MR. KUPSH: As a control manufacturer I 15 

## will tell you that every customer we have every 16 

## fireplace manufacturer who makes a fireplace and uses 17 

## our IPI system includes a switch to be able to allow 18 

## the homeowner to deal with issues of cold climate and 19 

## so every IPI system has this capability, every 20 

## manufacturer is using it. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That's allowance versus 22 

## I'm wondering what fraction actually recommends, whatNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## are the terms for which you recommend because that is 2 

## what is going to impact our savings. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Dana? 4 

## MR. MOROZ: Dana from Wolf Steel. I guess 5 

## this really demonstrates how this is an evolving 6 

## technology you know the assumption here that we are 7 

## talking about today is hey we have got this great new 8 

## system we could drop it in and save a bunch of gas 9 

## which is great I love it but the reality is we are 10 

## trying to make it fit into a system that has a lot of 11 

## variables that influence it that make it effective or 12 

## not effective, whereas we are an industry trying to 13 

## manage and develop that, our suppliers are working 14 

## with us but there has been no clear answer and this 15 

## what we call an anti-condensation switch, this 16 

## accessory really essentially bypass intermittent 17 

## pilots has become necessary because of the failing of 18 

## an intermittent system in some applications and so we 19 

## don't prescribe it, we don't say use it all the time 20 

## but we need to have it available so when our 21 

## customers experience the failing of our product using 22 

## an IPI system there had to be a solution.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Our market is very delicate, you know we 2 

## talk about is it a heater is it not a heater, is it 3 

## decorative? We have cultivated a market that 4 

## appreciates the product we have, we can damage it 5 

## severely if we force technology on to it that isn't 6 

## effective yet and so this is a step for us, this ACS 7 

## switch helps us get to that next level but that 8 

## technology is not here today. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we are going to move 10 

## on. 11 

## MR. SIAP: So next we have energy prices 12 

## I'll go over this briefly. The purpose is to develop 13 

## the average marginal monthly prices by geographic 14 

## area. DOE calculates these prices by multiplying the 15 

## current average annual energy prices by the monthly 16 

## price factors and the marginal price factors. The 17 

## annual energy prices are listed -- the sources are 18 

## listed there for the electricity, natural gas and oil 19 

## as well as the monthly energy price factors and the 20 

## marginal energy price factors. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 22 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## I'm looking at this slide and I needed to double 2 

## check what about the marginal prices for the propane 3 

## products, what are those based on? 4 

## MR. SIAP: The monthly energy price 5 

## factors for propane LPG is listed there EIA 2009 6 

## short term outlook. 7 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock EEI, you 8 

## don't have any more recent data to use? 9 

## MR. SIAP: I believe that's the most 10 

## recent data, 2012? 2009? 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We will update it as the 12 

## EIA puts it out but we use by rule we will use the 13 

## most recent EIA data so it's not like we are ignoring 14 

## a more recent year when it comes out we will use it. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: It takes a while for them 16 

## to assemble it all. 17 

## UNIDENTIFIED: I've worked there for 20 18 

## years so I can tell you it's not an overnight thing. 19 

## MR. DAY: Did we accidentally skip slide 20 

## 51 on installation costs or did I just miss it. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We didn't skip it but we 22 

## went quickly through it.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. DAY: Okay I was just wondering if 2 

## anybody had to say about it. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to say 4 

## something about installation costs? 5 

## MR. DAY: My understanding anecdotally is 6 

## that the installation costs are and obviously it 7 

## depends on the product but for fireplace inserts, for 8 

## gas log sets yeah the installation costs are 9 

## significant, a significant concern. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, yes Leslie? 11 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie, we provide that to you 12 

## in our -- we will provide it to you in our -- I'll 13 

## give it to you today but I will provide it to you in 14 

## the written comments. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you that's helpful. 16 

## Thank you Dana? 17 

## MR. MOROZ: I don't have that information 18 

## but I can say that in most states and certainly in 19 

## Canada you require a qualified technician to put any 20 

## electrical in which now brings a whole other factor 21 

## another contractor into the installation. I also 22 

## think in some applications such as inserts or evenNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## logs, in some states there might be some conflict as 2 

## to putting an electrical component in that cavity 3 

## with the fireplace. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 

## MR. SIAP: Thanks, the next slide is the 6 

## energy price trends. These are the average monthly 7 

## marginal -- these are how we determine the average 8 

## monthly marginal energy prices by geographical area. 9 

## These price trends come from EIA's AEO 2014 by Census 10 

## division. After 2040 they are extrapolated according 11 

## to fed guidelines. 12 

## The projected energy prices are shown in there for 13 

## both electricity, natural gas and propane are listed 14 

## there. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 17 

## Again just for clarification the value shown these 18 

## are nominal prices not inflation adjusted these are 19 

## the nominal projections? 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No they are real prices. 21 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay thank you Steve 22 

## Rosenstock, EEI. Again at least on the electricityNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## side if you look at the EIA data over the last 50 2 

## years the price for electricity has not increased, it 3 

## has flat lined or gone down, again if you look at the 4 

## basically 1960 through 2012 EIA when you look at some 5 

## of those tables this history has shown at least for 6 

## electricity that the real prices over time does not 7 

## increase. 8 

## So again if it is showing it as real 9 

## prices increasing again at least on the electricity 10 

## side it is going to overstate the actual dollar 11 

## impacts on the electricity side, thank you. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Leslie? 13 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie from RHP. What's your 14 

## start for residential LP or residential natural gas 15 

## price? Where do you start from? What's a number, a 16 

## real dollar number? 17 

## MR. SIAP: Well the number listed on the 18 

## slide there at the beginning so for natural gas it's 19 

## around $10.00. 20 

## MR. BORTZ: $10.00 for what? 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Per million BTU, straight 22 

## from EIA. This is not a standards program.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BORTZ: It will be in a couple of 2 

## months but it is not now. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We are not in the gas 4 

## price forecasting business here in our shop. 5 

## MR. SIAP: Okay next is the repair and 6 

## maintenance. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's linger on the price 8 

## trends just for a moment and see if there are any 9 

## additional comments there? Okay let's go. 10 

## MR. SIAP: These are the labor and 11 

## material required to ensure hearth products 12 

## operation. DOE did not identify specific maintenance 13 

## requirements for either hearth product ignition 14 

## system and we assumed no maintenance cost. The 15 

## repair costs were equal to the cost of replacing or 16 

## repairing the failed component because the ignition 17 

## system is a component of the hearth product. DOE 18 

## assumed that the repair and the replaced cost are the 19 

## same so the frequency for this was determined based 20 

## on warranty information and product lifetime and the 21 

## cost was equal to the component cost of the module. 22 

## The results are shown there.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 2 

## MR. DAY: This is Barton Day a quick 3 

## question. Did you assume a different repair 4 

## frequency for electronic ignition versus standing 5 

## pilot? 6 

## MR. SIAP: In our research we saw similar 7 

## warranty information and so we have the same ignition 8 

## repair year so we have the same failure rate, we 9 

## welcome comment data on that. 10 

## MR. DAY: Did you not receive comment 11 

## indicating that there's a significantly different 12 

## rate of repair? 13 

## MR. SIAP: Not yet. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: The comment period is open 15 

## so go for it. Rett? 16 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. I'd like 17 

## to point out that warranties are more of a marketing 18 

## tool than an indication of failure of the product. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay Leslie? 20 

## MR. BORTZ: Our experience with 21 

## intermittent pilot repair cost is that it didn't take 22 

## a month. It wasn't 9.6 years and our experience withNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## safety pilot kits they just about never fail. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah interesting, we have a 3 

## comment from Martin Thomas who is joining us online 4 

## and Martin's comment is when there is a switch on an 5 

## IPI system it is no longer an IPI and the energy 6 

## losses will be higher. End users may forget that 7 

## their fireplace has the permitted pilot set. Okay. 8 

## MR. KUPSH: Jim Kupsh just a quick 9 

## question, your intermittent pilot repair costs 10 

## includes both components, both the valve and the 11 

## ignition control? 12 

## MR. SIAP: This is for the entire 13 

## intermittent pilot that was costed out in the 14 

## engineering analysis. 15 

## MR. KUPSH: Because you basically have a 16 

## valve that is similar in cost in both plus the 17 

## ignition module and -- 18 

## MR. BORTZ: These costs are just -- 19 

## MR. SIAP: Thanks. Next is the lifetime 20 

## which is the age when the hearth product is retired 21 

## from service. This information was again based on 22 

## warranty information, manufacturer literature,Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## published studies from lifetime distributions for 2 

## residential appliances and similar products for the 3 

## average lifetime. The result is a median lifetime of 4 

## 15 years. 5 

## Moving on -- discount rates are used to 6 

## determine the present value of lifetime operating 7 

## expenses when a product is retired from service. DOE 8 

## used data based on interest to return rates for 9 

## various types of debt and equity to calculate a real 10 

## effective discount rate for each household. DOE 11 

## sampled a discount rate that accounts for 12 

## distribution of 6 income groups. 13 

## DOE used as its data source the survey of 14 

## consumer finances from 1995 to 2010 which resulted in 15 

## an average discount rate of 4.2%. The overall 16 

## distribution of discount rates as shown there on the 17 

## bottom by income group and discount rate. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 19 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 20 

## Electric Institute. Again that discount rate it's 21 

## nominal or real? 22 

## MR. SIAP: That one is real.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 2 

## MR. SIAP: Not inflation. 3 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: I appreciate that so and 4 

## again just looking at this chart I know from the 5 

## technical support document. Because you have such 6 

## widely scattered data do you know what the median 7 

## value was? 8 

## MR. SIAP: I only have the average at this 9 

## point I don't have it off the top of my head the 10 

## median. 11 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 12 

## MR. SIAP: Okay finally we have the base 13 

## case efficiency distribution which reflects the 14 

## projected market share of the products at the 15 

## different efficiency levels, standing pilot or 16 

## intermittent pilot in the base case in 2021. This 17 

## reflects that not all consumers purchase products at 18 

## the minimum standards standing pilot and consumers 19 

## already purchasing intermittent pilot are not 20 

## impacted by this standard so this used primarily 21 

## historical model data as well as the data from the 22 

## engineering analysis.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## So the second column there gives the 2 

## market share for each hearth product type and for 3 

## each hearth product type the third and fourth column 4 

## gives the fraction of standing pilot and intermittent 5 

## pilot. 6 

## MR. BORTZ: What is this? 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie go ahead. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So what this chart 9 

## explains is that when the standard comes into effect 10 

## in 2021 we project the market to be already at 42% 11 

## IPI so the standard effects 58% of the market 12 

## starting in 2021 of the units being sold. 13 

## MR. BORTZ: Do you take into consideration 14 

## that 90% of the outdoor and 50% of the vented are 15 

## match lit? 16 

## MR. SIAP: Match lit yes we take both of 17 

## these adjusted numbers here as well as shipping 18 

## studies you will see later have match lit just 19 

## aggregated from them so we don't take into account 20 

## match lit. 21 

## MR. BORTZ: Okay because these are the 22 

## exact same numbers that you have now they are justNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## doubled, you know. 2 

## MR. DAY: Just quickly the point that I 3 

## have made previously is that I question whether these 4 

## numbers are representative now but the main point is 5 

## that there is a very significant trend line that you 6 

## are ignoring and I think that certainly for a number 7 

## of those categories those assumptions just based on 8 

## the trends on the market are reasonable and you will 9 

## see far fewer -- 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's great and we 11 

## welcome the data you manufacturers have their 12 

## shipment data and their shipment weighted sales by 13 

## the different ignition types, we would welcome that 14 

## type of data and obviously we would use that if we 15 

## were to do any reanalysis in the absence of providing 16 

## the data to back-up your claims it's hard to tell one 17 

## way or the other. 18 

## MR. DAY: The issue is fairly obvious in 19 

## some respects as I have indicated. There are major 20 

## manufacturers who have completely eliminated their 21 

## use of standing pilot lights already. You know the 22 

## question is and one of the questions we will comeNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## back to this at the end but we are going to need 2 

## additional time to comment if you want us to pull 3 

## together data. I mean we have been working on it but 4 

## the data is not there and it needs to be assembled. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 6 

## MR. BORTZ: You have seemed to indicate 7 

## that there is a trend toward IPIs which you are 8 

## trying to notice in this the trend is there but then 9 

## you say in all your documentation you saw no trends 10 

## of anything at all, none. Should I get -- 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So provide us with 12 

## supporting data we will include it in the analysis. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Next slide. 14 

## MR. SIAP: Yeah here we have just talked 15 

## about all of these already so I am going to go to 16 

## yeah, so okay, here they are. The results are 17 

## presented here you can see this aggregated the 18 

## installed cost, future operating costs, and the LCC 19 

## as well as the payback period for an IPI system and 20 

## here's the bottom table there shows the results of 21 

## TSL1 which means the entire standing pilot market is 22 

## switched over to intermittent pilot.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## This takes into account all of the 2 

## consumers which currently have intermittent pilot and 3 

## it also takes into account those consumers which 4 

## would have a net cost. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the table, two 6 

## tables yes Barton? 7 

## MR. DAY: Barton. Sorry just to clarify 8 

## what did you assume as the lifetime number? 9 

## MR. SIAP: So the lifetime was that 10 

## distribution shown on slide 53 which had a median 11 

## value of roughly 15 years, 55 sorry. 12 

## MR. DAY: For all products? 13 

## MR. SIAP: Yes. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: John from DOE you can see 15 

## that the distribution takes us out to 30 years. 16 

## MR. DAY: For all products, thank you. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's take a break, we have 18 

## been going almost 2 hours, 10 minutes only so go grab 19 

## a break to wherever you need to go and get back here 20 

## okay, which means we will resume at 3:35 by that 21 

## clock up there. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay we are going to resumeNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## where we left off. 2 

## MR. SIAP: Okay so now we are starting 3 

## with the shipments. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Shipments here we go. 5 

## MR. SIAP: Shipment analysis. So the 6 

## purpose of the shipments is to forecast the hearth 7 

## products that would be expected to be shipped between 8 

## 2021 and 2050 both with and without energy 9 

## conservation standard. DOE formulates both the 10 

## shipment projections and price elasticity. The 11 

## shipment projections estimate the number of hearth 12 

## products shipped. 13 

## DOE has found that historical hearth 14 

## product shipments are highly correlated with housing 15 

## starts. DOE uses housing starts as opposed to 16 

## housing completions because that is the number that 17 

## AEO provides. DOE does not have housing completions 18 

## projections. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 20 

## MR. DAY: Just the point that the only 21 

## product that actually is tied to new housing starts 22 

## is fireplaces. You know some of the products likeNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## inserts and log sets, they have to have an existing 2 

## house to go into and so the you know, the correlation 3 

## to new home starts for most of these products is 4 

## pretty random. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, yes James? 6 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes I would like to talk about 7 

## that a little bit. When I read in the federal 8 

## register the proposed rule that says because DOE 9 

## observed a strong correlation between housing starts 10 

## and product shipments you use a 10 year average of 11 

## the ratio of hearth product shipments to housing 12 

## starts, along with the forecasted housing starts from 13 

## AEO 2014 to project future hearth product shipments, 14 

## I was astounded. That can't be, something is wrong 15 

## here and I don't know what it is but for a couple of 16 

## reasons. 17 

## One is as Barton just pointed out I looked 18 

## at shipment records from 2009 to 2013 of hearth 19 

## products and almost half, 48.5% were either inserts 20 

## or gas log sets, they have nothing to do with new 21 

## housing starts. 22 

## Another 9% fireplaces and gas stoves,Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## freestanding fireplaces and gas stoves, typical 2 

## fireplaces, one normally assumes you know things of 3 

## as a fireplace. Now I am going to remodeling so 4 

## there is 57.5% of the products that have nothing to 5 

## do with new housing starts, that's the first thing. 6 

## The second thing even ignoring -- even 7 

## ignoring that fraction that doesn't seem to be 8 

## correlatable to new housing starts or at least only 9 

## in the very general sense, perhaps as the economy 10 

## gets better -- I'll just read this paragraph even 11 

## ignoring retrofitting and remodeling there is a very 12 

## large uncertainty and inherent in using housing 13 

## starts to predict new gas heart products, number one. 14 

## I beg your pardon? 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: What is the paragraph from? 16 

## MR. HOUCK: From me. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay this is from you? 18 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 

## MR. HOUCK: Number one the fraction of 21 

## fireplaces shipped that are wood fueled, gas fueled 22 

## or electric which is a reflection of consumerNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## preferences influenced in turn by many economic and 2 

## social issues historically has changed and most 3 

## certainly will change in the future. It has changed 4 

## significantly over the years and one would need a 5 

## crystal ball to figure out how that would change in 6 

## the future. 7 

## Number two -- the fraction of new homes 8 

## that have a new fireplace has historically changed 9 

## and again almost certainly will change in the future. 10 

## It's over the last decade, a couple of decades, it 11 

## has gone up and down 10 to 20% I believe it is a slow 12 

## trend down right now. Again one would have 13 

## difficulty predicting that in the future. 14 

## Number three -- the volatility seen since 15 

## 2005 in new housing starts is yet a prediction of 16 

## future housing starts is fundamentally uncertain. I 17 

## don't probably need to dwell on what happened in 2005 18 

## and 2006 time period. 19 

## Number four -- the number of fireplaces 20 

## installed in multi-family units. Completed in 2013 21 

## represents only about 1% of the total installed in 22 

## new housing in that year. A future shift inNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## proportion to single family as opposed to the 2 

## multi-housing starts will add complexity to a 3 

## prediction based on new housing starts. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 

## MR. SIAP: In addition to shipment 6 

## projections DOE uses price elasticity to account for 7 

## the impacts of increased prices due to a standard on 8 

## shipments. So we will go to housing -- hearth 9 

## product shipments prediction method as I stated 10 

## previously DOE has seen a high correlation in housing 11 

## starts and shipment projections, correlation 12 

## coefficient of 0.98. Core 1 is a perfect 13 

## correlation. 14 

## DOE then takes AEO's 2014 housing start 15 

## projections through 2050 and applies the historical 16 

## ratio seen in the historical data to the shipment 17 

## projections that allows us to make the hearth product 18 

## shipment projections and finally the DOE uses price 19 

## list to account for decreased shipments due to the 20 

## increase in price in the standard year. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 22 

## MR. DAY: Yeah, Barton Day I wasNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## surprised to see that your assumption in terms of 2 

## price elasticity is that hearth products are like 3 

## water heaters and other standard home appliances that 4 

## are present in virtually every home. None of the 5 

## products we are talking about are present in even 6 

## half of homes and products like gas log sets and 7 

## inserts the consumer is sitting there with a 8 

## fireplace already, you know. 9 

## It is a highly discretionary purchasing 10 

## decision and to think that price elasticity I think 11 

## that that hit on these products from increased costs 12 

## is going to be a little blip like it would be for 13 

## products pretty much everyone has to have is 14 

## completely unrealistic and it reflects a 15 

## misunderstanding of the market. 16 

## The presumption at the beginning as well 17 

## as all of these products are part of one market, no 18 

## they are not. There's a fireplace market in which 19 

## gas competes with wood and electric and it is right 20 

## on down the line for every one of these products. So 21 

## the cost impact in terms of what that will do to 22 

## sales I think is seriously out of whack.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 2 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 3 

## And again if you go back to slide 65 where it shows 4 

## the AEO projection, thank you. As I recall doesn't 5 

## AEO project a higher percentage of multi-family going 6 

## to -- it's going back to 1.4 million, you know a huge 7 

## increase but isn't the part most of that bump in the 8 

## increase is really for multi-family building rather 9 

## than single family building? 10 

## Because I think that the trend over the 11 

## last few years has been a rise but the rise has been 12 

## because of multi-family rather than single family. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. My 14 

## understanding is the correlation coefficient still 15 

## holds over the historical time period. 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 17 

## Well but the thing is though if it is going to be 18 

## more multi-family following up with what Mr. Houck 19 

## said there is a lower likelihood of products going 20 

## in, that's just the new ones, that is just the 21 

## fireplaces again. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: If they had created theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## correlation coefficient on just single family but 2 

## then applied multi-family starts to it then I would 3 

## see your point and I don't believe they did that 4 

## here. 5 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve, I was wondering 6 

## about what they did the correlation to? 7 

## MR. SIAP: The statistical analysis is 8 

## pretty clean there but we will take comment if you 9 

## think there is a better way to correlate it. 10 

## MR. DIRCKS: This is Peter from HHT. I 11 

## would concur with both of the gentlemen's comments. 12 

## I mean look at the U.S. Census Bureau data that is 13 

## where you are looking for some input. They have been 14 

## tracking incident rates of fireplaces for about the 15 

## past four years. It's about 50% the last 40 years 16 

## just on fireplaces, so I think just to kind of to 17 

## combine all the comments here just to straight line 18 

## that across all the products I think is an issue I 19 

## think that Barton raised but in terms of your -- 20 

## Steve's comments on single-family versus multi-family 21 

## that is typically broken on the Census Bureau and it 22 

## would still be lower than what you are showing hereNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## at 50% or less so thank you. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes? 3 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen, nice to 4 

## see the business cycle has been eliminated and also 5 

## you know the NOPR talks about a disproportionate 6 

## impact on gas log manufacturers due to increased 7 

## price of the product, that there is price elasticity 8 

## or at least there's consumer demand elasticity based 9 

## on the higher price that gas log sets would be if 10 

## they had to go to all electronic ignition systems so 11 

## I can't see how you can have straight line growth or 12 

## straight line projected shipments at infinitum. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Go to the next slide. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: There's the bump down. 15 

## MR. SIAP: Okay, the next section -- 16 

## (CABLE ON COMPUTER WITH THE POWER POINT'S 17 

## DISCONNECTED). 18 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen just for 19 

## the record my last comment was sarcastic with regard 20 

## to the business cycle. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for clarifying. 22 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: I just want to clarify forNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the record. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 3 

## MR. BORTZ: You say that you haven't seen 4 

## any difference in trend in multi-family compared to 5 

## single-family I've got numbers here that show a 6 

## trend. I will send them. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Please submit those yeah. 8 

## MR. BORTZ: Here from the Census Bureau. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes submit them thank you. 10 

## MR. BORTZ: They are the numbers that you 11 

## have. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: All I said is the analysis 13 

## was done and the correlation coefficient applies. If 14 

## there is a better method you think we could use feel 15 

## free to suggest it. 16 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Barton? 17 

## MR. DAY: I'm sorry it's not a 18 

## correlation, there's no causal connection okay it's 19 

## like predicting the stock market based on skirt 20 

## length, okay. 21 

## MR. BORTZ: It works. 22 

## MR. DAY: It's exactly what it is if youNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## crunch the numbers and get the lines to go together 2 

## it doesn't mean that there is a correlation. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We need to move on. 4 

## MR. DAY: For fireplaces yes, okay but you 5 

## have to look at each product. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: We have to keep going here. 7 

## MR. SIAP: So the purpose of the national 8 

## impact analysis or NIA is to estimate the impacts of 9 

## an energy conservation standard over the lifetime of 10 

## the hearth product shipped between 2021 and 2050 11 

## essentially this takes the LCC and the shipments 12 

## analysis and provides a national impact analysis. 13 

## The national energy savings or the NES is 14 

## the difference in the lifetime energy consumption of 15 

## hearth products for the base case compared to the 16 

## standards case and the net present value is the 17 

## difference in the present value of installed cost and 18 

## the present value of the operating costs over the 19 

## analysis period. In the interest of time I will skip 20 

## to the graphics showing these as opposed to the text. 21 

## From the shipments here we calculate the 22 

## energy use in both the base case and the standardsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## case, applying a full fuel of cycles and taking the 2 

## difference gives the national energy savings. 3 

## The net present value is formulated 4 

## similarly, we calculate the operating costs savings 5 

## in the base case and the standards case, take the 6 

## difference and that is the cumulative operating cost 7 

## savings, the difference in the product costs of the 8 

## base case and standards case gives the cumulative 9 

## total consumer cost increase. 10 

## The difference of that discounted to the 11 

## present value gives the net present value. 12 

## Okay so the summary of the NIA impact 13 

## inputs. We went over all of these before except for 14 

## the full fuel cycle of energy factors which 15 

## essentially accounts -- this converts the site of 16 

## electricity to primary power plant energy 17 

## consumption, accounting for resource extraction, 18 

## distribution losses, et cetera. 19 

## Here are the actual input values for the 20 

## NIA. Again we went over most of these discount 21 

## factors 3 and 7% and the base case is 58% standing 22 

## pilot, 42% intermittent pilot and the standards caseNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## distribution will be all intermittent pilot. Just to 2 

## go over briefly the base case and the standard level 3 

## how that interacts. 4 

## The products that are below the standard 5 

## in this case, standing pilot will roll up to comply 6 

## with the standard means that they will switch to 7 

## intermittent pilot. Products and or above the 8 

## standard will not be affected. 9 

## Okay so this is the results of the NIA 10 

## primary national energy savings of .62 quads. .69 11 

## quads is the full fuel cycle energy savings. The net 12 

## present value, discounted at 3% is 3.12 billion 13 

## dollars in 2013 dollars and the net present value of 14 

## consumer benefit discount at net 7% is 1.03 billion 15 

## dollars. 16 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock real 17 

## quick sorry. That's until 2040 or 2050 what's the 18 

## time? 19 

## MR. SIAP: Well so that's in the lifetime 20 

## of products shipped during that year so that's from 21 

## 2021 until the end of life of the last product 22 

## shipped in 2050.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Barton? 2 

## MR. DAY: So it's the 30 years of 3 

## shipments and then in the 30th year you are going to 4 

## make up a number, a million of these things and then 5 

## that 30 year distribution for all of them to die out 6 

## so roughly you add 30 years to the end, so the last 7 

## bit of savings after you discount is probably a very 8 

## small number when you discount over 60 years. 9 

## MR. SIAP: Yeah it's very small. 10 

## MR. DAY: This is Barton, I think I feel 11 

## compelled to point out that you are assuming products 12 

## absent to rule. The technology for pilot lights and 13 

## pilot light operation would be exactly the same in 14 

## 2040 as it is today, correct? I mean that's how you 15 

## are crunching your numbers? 16 

## MR. SIAP: Yes our distributions are 17 

## constant with time in the absence of data. 18 

## MR. DAY: Well I would just point out that 19 

## if technology were that static I would be preparing 20 

## comments on a typewriter and sending them in by snail 21 

## mail. 22 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you, additionalNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## comments here? 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess would you like 3 

## us to -- perhaps the manufacturers can give us 4 

## information on historical model availability, how 5 

## their model offerings have changed over time because 6 

## seeing as you have said over and over at this forum 7 

## that shipment data is sparse at least for your 8 

## industry and not actually collected. 9 

## Certainly they know how their model 10 

## offerings have changed over time and maybe that's a 11 

## good proxy of the shift of how potentially models 12 

## have evolved with technology changes over time. We 13 

## would welcome that type of data and we would welcome 14 

## using it in our analysis for the industry. 15 

## MR. BORTZ: We gave it to you, you don't 16 

## even have it, we handed it to you. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay we are moving on. 18 

## MR. SIAP: Okay the last slide in this 19 

## section is the regulatory impact analysis or RIA 20 

## slide 76. The purpose is to investigate national 21 

## impacts of non-regulatory alternatives to the 22 

## mandatory amended energy conservation standard. DOENotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## used a modified NIA spreadsheet to calculate -- to 2 

## evaluate several non-regulatory alternatives to the 3 

## proposed standard listed here including no action, 4 

## consumer rebates, consumer tax rebates, manufacturer 5 

## tax credits, voluntary energy efficiency targets and 6 

## government purchases. 7 

## DOE calculated the resulting NES and NPV 8 

## for each non-regulatory alternative and no 9 

## alternative was found to be as beneficial as the 10 

## proposed standard. 11 

## MR. DAY: This is Barton. Since the whole 12 

## issue here is consumer behavior you know I would 13 

## suggest that you consider you know public education 14 

## and information. Consumers have a direct financial 15 

## interest, they don't have to buy more expensive 16 

## products, they don't have to have inconvenience or a 17 

## lack of performance in their products. 18 

## Pilot lights can be turned on and off. 19 

## Today many products can have their pilots turned on 20 

## and off literally with the flip of a switch. The 21 

## failure to consider the non-regulatory options for 22 

## dealing with this I think really needs to beNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## rethought. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 3 

## MR. RASMUSSESN: Rett Rasmussen, also with 4 

## these other regulatory alternatives or non-regulatory 5 

## alternatives, perhaps there is some of these that 6 

## would not have the impact on production workers in 7 

## the gas hearth industry as shown on page 7115 of the 8 

## NOPR that could lead to up to 58% decrease in the 9 

## number of production workers and the impacts that 10 

## that has on employment of the economy and the impact 11 

## on people's lives. 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, moving on to 13 

## manufacture impact analysis. 14 

## MS. LEWIS: Hi my name is Jessica Lewis 15 

## from Navigant Consulting and I will be discussing the 16 

## manufacturer impact analysis or MIA that was 17 

## conducted in this part of the NOPR. The main purpose 18 

## of the MIA is to assess the impacts of a proposed 19 

## standard on manufacturers. A second purpose is to 20 

## identify sub-groups of manufacturers that may be 21 

## differently impacted by a standard and to evaluate 22 

## potential impacts on those manufacturers. In theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## slides that follow I will discuss impacts on two 2 

## sub-groups, small businesses and manufacturers of gas 3 

## log sets. 4 

## And finally the MIA looks at the effects 5 

## of a standard on factors like domestic direct 6 

## employment, manufacturing capacity and the cumulative 7 

## regulatory burden facing the industry. The primary 8 

## tool DOE uses to conduct the manufacturer impact 9 

## analysis is a discounted cash flow model known as the 10 

## government regulatory impact model, also fondly 11 

## referred to as the GRIM. 12 

## The major output of the model is the 13 

## industry net present value or INPV which is a metric 14 

## used to quantify financial impacts on the industry. 15 

## As part of the MIA we also conducted interviews with 16 

## manufacturers which helped us to refine inputs to the 17 

## cash flow model and to better understand the 18 

## qualitative effects of the proposed standard. 19 

## In general the MIA process takes place in 20 

## three phases. In the first phase we develop an 21 

## industry profile using publicly available information 22 

## such as SEC filings and manufacturers' annualNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## reports. In the second phase we developed an 2 

## interview guide to gather targeted information from 3 

## manufacturers and we also prepare the cash flow 4 

## spreadsheets used to estimate financial impacts on 5 

## the industry. 6 

## In the final phase we conduct interviews 7 

## with manufacturers and use feedback to further 8 

## develop and refine the analysis, finalize inputs to 9 

## the cash flow model and examine the potential 10 

## qualitative impacts of a standard. 11 

## To build the cash flow model for the 12 

## industry we relied on content from several of the 13 

## analyses that have been discussed earlier today. 14 

## These inputs include financial and product 15 

## information from the market and technology 16 

## assessment, manufacturer production costs from the 17 

## engineering analysis and annual shipment projections 18 

## from the shipments analysis. 19 

## In addition to that we developed two key 20 

## pieces of information as part of the MIA. The first 21 

## is a set of multiple manufacturer markup scenarios 22 

## which allows us to model a range of potentialNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## financial impacts on the industry and the second is a 2 

## set of conversion costs that enable us to account for 3 

## various one-time costs manufacturers might incur in 4 

## order to comply with the requirements of the 5 

## standard. 6 

## On the qualitative side one of the primary 7 

## outputs of the MIA is a set of key issues 8 

## manufacturers raised during the course of interviews. 9 

## We have touched on most of this today but to walk 10 

## through quickly. First manufacturers raised concerns 11 

## regarding impacts on profitability. They indicated 12 

## that units with electronic ignitions systems tend to 13 

## be more expensive to manufacture than units with 14 

## standing pilot lights and expressed concern that a 15 

## rise in prices can lead to a drop in sales. 16 

## Second manufacturers indicated that the 17 

## proposed standard could potentially impact the 18 

## competitive dynamics of the market. On this front 19 

## small manufacturers specifically expressed concern 20 

## about their ability to compete with larger 21 

## manufacturers who may see advantages when sourcing 22 

## components for electronic ignition systems at higherNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## volumes and we will discuss that more later. 2 

## And finally several manufacturers 3 

## indicated that electronic ignition systems represent 4 

## a more complicated technology and may be less 5 

## reliable. On that point several manufacturers 6 

## indicated that units with electronic ignition systems 7 

## tend to require more servicing and repair than some 8 

## of the units with standing pilot lights. Others 9 

## mentioned factors like we have heard today about how 10 

## units with standing pilot lights may in some cases be 11 

## better suited to colder climates and also are able to 12 

## operate during power outages. 13 

## Moving on to the next few slides, we will 14 

## walk through the quantitative analysis in more 15 

## detail. First as I mentioned one of the key inputs 16 

## to the cash flow model is a set of markup scenarios. 17 

## The markup is a multiplier applied to the 18 

## manufacturing production costs to capture all 19 

## non-production costs so this includes things like 20 

## R&D, selling general and administrative expenses, 21 

## interest expenses and also profit. 22 

## By varying the markup in our model we areNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## able analyze a range of potential impact on the 2 

## industry. In the NOPR we modeled two markup 3 

## scenarios, the preservation of gross margin 4 

## percentage markup scenario and the preservation of 5 

## pre-unit operating profit markup scenario. 6 

## And the preservation of gross margin 7 

## percentage scenario represents an upper bound, or 8 

## less severe set of impacts. It assumes that 9 

## manufacturers maintain the same markup after 10 

## standards take effect as they had beforehand which 11 

## implies that as production costs increase 12 

## manufacturers are able to raise their prices and 13 

## increase their operating profit in absolute dollars 14 

## on a per unit basis. 15 

## In contrast the preservation of operating 16 

## profits scenario assumes manufacturers cannot 17 

## maintain the same markup after standards take effect. 18 

## Instead they maintain the same operating profit but 19 

## must reduce their markup in order to do so and by 20 

## lowering the markup after standards take effect this 21 

## scenario estimates a more severe set of impacts on 22 

## manufacturer profitability.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## In addition to markups the other key input 2 

## we developed as part of the MIA is a set of 3 

## conversion cost estimates to account for any one-time 4 

## costs manufacturers face in order to comply with the 5 

## standard. We typically break these costs down into 6 

## two primary categories, product conversion costs and 7 

## capital conversion costs and in bottom three rows of 8 

## this table you can see that we have estimated total 9 

## industry conversion costs under the proposed standard 10 

## to be 8.7 million dollars and this consists of 11 

## $900,000.00 in capital conversion costs and 7.8 12 

## million dollars in product conversion costs. 13 

## Earlier someone raised a question about 14 

## how we accounted for testing and certification of 15 

## redesigned models and things of that nature and for 16 

## many products the requirements -- the conversion cost 17 

## requirements of the standard may be heavily focused 18 

## on new tooling and equipment to fulfill the new 19 

## requirements for compliant products. 20 

## In this case as we have all discussed 21 

## today the proposed standard largely entails a 22 

## component swap. So the capital conversion costs,Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## which are one time investments in equipment, tooling 2 

## and other physical assets are relatively low. We 3 

## assigned a nominal conversion cost of $10,000 per 4 

## manufacturer for any adjustments to their production 5 

## lines or facilities that they might undertake. 6 

## And then for the product conversion costs 7 

## which are one-time investments in things like R&D 8 

## testing, certification and related costs we reviewed 9 

## product literature and came up with an estimate of 10 

## total models available in the industry as well as the 11 

## percentage of those models currently offered only 12 

## with standing pilot lights. So many models out there 13 

## may have an option of electronic ignition or a 14 

## standing pilot light and we focused specifically on 15 

## those models only offered with standing pilot lights 16 

## under the assumption that models offered with an 17 

## option would not require any further investment in 18 

## R&D or testing and certification, the standing pilot 19 

## option would simply no longer be available. 20 

## So we identified 781 models that we 21 

## thought would require potential conversion and 22 

## assigned a $10,000 per model fee to account forNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## additional R&D and testing and certification costs. 2 

## We developed those numbers based on manufacture 3 

## feedback but certainly we would be very open to 4 

## further feedback and comment if folks feel that you 5 

## know there's additional data to share there. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Dana? 7 

## MR. MOROZ: Dana Moroz from Wolf Steel. I 8 

## would like to sideline a moment if I could. I have a 9 

## plane to catch so unfortunately I'm not going to be 10 

## able to stay for the rest of this. I wanted to first 11 

## of all thank the DOE for allowing me to participate 12 

## today and be part of this. It has been very 13 

## informative. And I certainly appreciate going 14 

## through the whole process being a foreign national. 15 

## You know I think we have all voiced in 16 

## different ways, I think we all agree with the concept 17 

## of what is trying to be achieved here and to quote 18 

## Barton we are not trying to be difficult. There's a 19 

## lot of data we don't have, our customers don't know 20 

## what they have and what they don't so it's hard to 21 

## ask them questions sometimes too. 22 

## I guess my biggest concern is that we moveNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## forward cautiously. You know this is one of the few 2 

## domestic industries that is still here. You know we 3 

## still manufacture in the United States and in Canada 4 

## but we manufacture here and as much as there is great 5 

## value in conserving our resources I think it is 6 

## important to consider the jobs and the impact on the 7 

## actions that we have. 8 

## ` You know the reliability of 9 

## the technology I don't think is what everyone expects 10 

## it to be. Certainly as a manufacturer I can attest 11 

## to that, that doesn't mean we have given up on it, we 12 

## have worked diligently because we see the value and 13 

## we have raised our market share with IPI systems as a 14 

## result. We hear about new technologies that are 15 

## being developed to answer those needs. 16 

## So again thank you and please consider 17 

## that. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. 19 

## MS. WALKER: Excuse me I'm also going to 20 

## have to leave with Dana. I also express appreciation 21 

## for being able to participate and look forward to the 22 

## forward steps.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Don't forget your detailed 2 

## written comments. 3 

## MS. WALKER: Thank you. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry I am going to ask 6 

## one question. For those that have to go please feel 7 

## free to go and perhaps you can follow up later but 8 

## over the course of the day we have heard a variety of 9 

## things that you know this industry is evolving, its 10 

## moving to a more energy efficiency options. DOE over 11 

## the analysis period you need to take into account the 12 

## trends that this industry is voluntarily, there is a 13 

## good percentage of the market that already is 14 

## offering EI systems safely and reliably -- so I guess 15 

## as a broader, bigger picture question you know -- 16 

## what prevents the rest of that industry or that 17 

## particular -- are there particular products or 18 

## categories of products where there are technology 19 

## issues or I mean in other words. 20 

## You say it is evolving anyway, you say it 21 

## is going to get there in time. You say DOE should 22 

## acknowledge that over time in its analysis period butNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## yet we are also hearing that DOE, you can't set a 2 

## standard that adopts it because the technology is not 3 

## there but yet there are products out there, there's a 4 

## good percentage of the market doing it so are there 5 

## certain categories where it is limited? 6 

## Is there certain categories where it is 7 

## right for moving to and there are no technology issue 8 

## I'm just asking you, you know what are those lines? 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead Rett. 10 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. While I 11 

## spoke in my opening comments about the limitations of 12 

## electronic ignition systems with gas log sets and I 13 

## don't see that in five years' time that the issue of 14 

## having acceptable electronic ignition systems like 15 

## are used on smaller sets to be able to use on larger 16 

## sets is going to come on to the marketplace. 17 

## It's an economic issue that the gas valve 18 

## manufacturers will not overcome because the volume 19 

## isn't there to make it economically feasible and 20 

## rewarding to them to do so so if you were to push 21 

## this through for larger gas log sets I'm out of 22 

## business essentially in that and I am not willing toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## give up on that easy. I view that I am in the 2 

## happiness business, I tell my staff that -- that's 3 

## what we do, we are in the happiness business so we 4 

## try to make the best products we can for the market, 5 

## what they want, deliver it consistently and this is 6 

## not a happy process so gas logs are definitely there 7 

## are bright lines there that we just cannot accomplish 8 

## with what you want to accomplish here. 9 

## The other side of it too is there isn't a 10 

## whole lot of fireplaces that are in that large area, 11 

## but by the same token the folks that put them in they 12 

## want what they want. They want to be able to enjoy 13 

## the gas log set like the guy in the lesser house you 14 

## know in the other neighborhood can do in his house. 15 

## But you know, so we try to accommodate 16 

## that because we are in the happiness business and 17 

## that is how we stay in business is providing products 18 

## that will with the best available technology for what 19 

## there is, there are just fewer options as we get 20 

## bigger. 21 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie do you want in here? 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's reallyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## helpful so thank you for that. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: No, okay Peter. 3 

## MR. DIRCKS: I also have to leave so I 4 

## will make a couple of quick closing comments so -- 5 

## first of all thank you, this was a step in the right 6 

## direction to get the dialogue going on the issues so 7 

## I think this was very productive today and good back 8 

## and forth. 9 

## So basically I just want to kind of 10 

## reiterate my opening comments. You know from our 11 

## view one of the big things that we came here today is 12 

## really seeking further clarification on the scope of 13 

## the proposed rule, delineating the definition of a 14 

## hearth product to a reasonable range. I think you 15 

## gave us some insights much more so than we have had 16 

## before. 17 

## You have asked for further opportunity by 18 

## us and the industry to respond and we will do that 19 

## and I think so of the comments that we have already 20 

## provided, both written and verbal today has 21 

## accomplished that and we can do more on that ground. 22 

## I know a number of us have already given you someNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## feedback into some of the specific products that we 2 

## would recommend that you eliminate entirely and the 3 

## reasons for that so that's fairly logical. 4 

## I think in closing you know as I mentioned 5 

## before as a manufacturer that has moved to IPI in the 6 

## fast majority of our fireplaces we have done that, my 7 

## comment earlier this morning was we just simply 8 

## object to the proposed standard calling for the 9 

## prescription design requirement that would completely 10 

## disallow the use of standing pilots for a lot of the 11 

## reasons we have already talked about today. 12 

## Because we do feel that affects lessening 13 

## competition especially by reducing consumer choice 14 

## for those use and installation conditions like we 15 

## have talked about like "climate" situations that are 16 

## real. And then secondly because we are very proud at 17 

## HHT of our history of innovation both in safety and 18 

## performance and we say that with pride and 19 

## humbleness. 20 

## And so because of that we really would 21 

## recommend that you be very careful considering 22 

## eliminating future designs and applications where theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## use of the pilot in a standby mode would still be 2 

## essential to those designs or applications but we 3 

## could still design to achieve substantially all of 4 

## the purported energy savings that you are looking to 5 

## do because there are companies, large and small, that 6 

## can still get to that without formal regulation. 7 

## So with all that in mind thank you and I 8 

## will just reiterate really kind of the final comment 9 

## today because this was a step in the right direction 10 

## that's really why we are you know, asking you to look 11 

## at the NOPR and treating it as a request for 12 

## information. You guys have been very helpful in 13 

## saying that we can provide more information that 14 

## might aid you in your efforts and I think that's why 15 

## at the outset this morning I request that the April 16 

## 10th deadline be extended so that we could possibly 17 

## do that. 18 

## Help you in how you want to shape this for 19 

## the betterment of all, so thanks very much. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. I don't 21 

## think we are quite ready to close yet but Frank keep 22 

## going.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. STANONIK: I was assuming everyone had 2 

## to leave and giving their closing remarks. Just 3 

## something that I wanted to point out on this question 4 

## of the industry net present value. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for bringing us 6 

## back. 7 

## MR. STANONIK: And although the analysis 8 

## here seems relatively mild I can't help but notice, 9 

## and I would hope the DOE notices that in this 10 

## particular case in the shipment information you have 11 

## been given, this industry in the last 8 years is 12 

## still in an extremely rough ride. I just looked at 13 

## the numbers and it almost bottomed out where the 14 

## shipments were about almost one fifth of what they 15 

## were at the peak in '05 or whatever year you started 16 

## with. 17 

## And so my point of that is I started with 18 

## this because I was trying to see what you are 19 

## projecting for future shipments but my point is that 20 

## in this particular case I think it is worth noting 21 

## that again the shipments for this product have in the 22 

## last 8 years have decreased significantly and so forNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the people, especially most of them being small 2 

## businesses to even suggest any kind of change where 3 

## there is a negative impact on a net present value is 4 

## a lot worse than let's say where they have been 5 

## having average shipments for the last 7 or 8 years or 6 

## maybe even a couple of high years, they are in a very 7 

## different situation that I think warranted special 8 

## consideration. 9 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Leslie? 10 

## MR. BORTZ: I would just like to make sure 11 

## that we get to the environmental -- 12 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Right I was going to 13 

## suggest that we press on here, okay just to get 14 

## through the rest of these slides. 15 

## MS. LEWIS: Okay so just quickly as the 16 

## results demonstrate we estimated a range of impacts 17 

## on INPV between negative 2.6 and 0.4 percent for the 18 

## industry. 19 

## MR. SKOLNICK: You can sit at the table. 20 

## MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest, Navigant 21 

## Consulting. I'm always a little concerned when I see 22 

## that the magnitude of the impacts is not consistentNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## with the magnitude of the reaction of the 2 

## manufacturers. So there are three drivers to the 3 

## manufacturing impacts. There's the magnitude of the 4 

## investments that are needed to comply to the 5 

## regulations so that's the capital costs, the figure 6 

## of 8.7 million dollars that Jessica mentioned. 7 

## It would be really important that we get 8 

## that number right so the figures that were mentioned 9 

## earlier about the $10,000.00 of product R&D and 10 

## certification, you know, that is something that we 11 

## would definitely like to have comment on. The other 12 

## big driver is shipments. I saw some reactions 13 

## earlier to price elasticity and you know to the 14 

## extent that we can have comments on your expected 15 

## change in shipments due to the price changes that we 16 

## are anticipating and the rationale for those changes, 17 

## that would be very useful because that's a key driver 18 

## to the manufacturing impacts on the log sets in 19 

## particular if the prices are going to go up, your 20 

## comments? 21 

## All right but -- 22 

## MR. BORTZ: But you got it.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. RIVEST: Navigant got it from you. 2 

## MR. BORTZ: Yeah. 3 

## MR. RIVEST: But I think what we need is 4 

## to have something to the docket from a broader 5 

## spectrum of the industry and then have Lawrence 6 

## Berkeley National Lab you know prepare their 7 

## shipments analysis okay. Really the other -- well 8 

## you guys have been repeating stuff all day I can 9 

## repeat a little bit too. 10 

## MR. BORTZ: Just as long as get to Jim's 11 

## comments because he has got some important stuff to 12 

## say. 13 

## MR. RIVEST: All right I have nothing more 14 

## to say, thank you. 15 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay we are going to return 16 

## to Jessica who will press on and take comments as we 17 

## go along and we will make sure we get to Jim's 18 

## comments on emissions Jessica? 19 

## MS. LEWIS: Thank you. Another thing to 20 

## note about these results is that they are intended to 21 

## capture impacts on the industry as a whole and don't 22 

## necessarily reflect differential impacts on differentNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## subgroups of manufacturers or individual 2 

## manufacturers. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Before you move on Mike 4 

## made a special plea for comments on conversion costs 5 

## and also anything additional in shipments, so let's 6 

## see if there is anything additional at this time on 7 

## those subjects before we move on. Yes, Rett? 8 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. My 9 

## company has never been faced with having to make such 10 

## a drastic change in a relatively short period of 11 

## time. I don't know what it is going to cost and I'm 12 

## one of the more sophisticated, more experienced guys 13 

## in the industry with regard to design of product. 14 

## There's a whole host of other guys that are newer to 15 

## the industry or not very good at what they do already 16 

## without having to go to something as sophisticated as 17 

## electronic ignition systems. 18 

## You know, I don't know and here's the gas 19 

## log guys. There's a whole lot of other folks out 20 

## there, we are the ones that are here. I welcome you 21 

## to try to get the data out of them. As far as 22 

## shipments go the same thing I you know, who knowsNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## what it is going to be, it's a crap shoot, we have 2 

## never been down this path before and as far as data 3 

## goes it's not what our companies do, that's what you 4 

## guys do, you guys are in the numbers business on 5 

## that, our numbers are sales of product, shipping 6 

## product, manufacturing product, but it is based on 7 

## consumer demand and not you know, as far as 8 

## projecting out, it is making sure we have enough to 9 

## go for the next couple of months of raw materials, 10 

## not necessarily way down in for what you are doing, I 11 

## don't know, the data doesn't exist, that's the 12 

## problem. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah go ahead Leslie? 14 

## MR. BORTZ: I'm sorry I can't get all 15 

## three things together at one time. Cost, you 16 

## mentioned $10,000 as a cost number that was 17 

## discussed. We have mentioned that the cost of 18 

## certification alone is 12 to 15 thousand dollars for 19 

## each product and we have an ANSI certified lab which 20 

## costs us a lot of money and Rett doesn't. 21 

## Most gas log guys don't so the cost is 22 

## going to be a heck of a lot more than $10,000.00.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you -- 2 

## MR. BORTZ: $16,312.00. 3 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jessica? 4 

## MS. LEWIS: Thank you so to jump ahead and 5 

## look at some of the impacts on subgroups of 6 

## manufacturers DOE first looked at the impacts on 7 

## small businesses. Out of 90 total hearth 8 

## manufacturers identified, DOE identified 66 as 9 

## domestic small businesses. This classification is 10 

## based on the Small Business Administration's small 11 

## business size standards which set a cap of 500 12 

## employees or fewer for a manufacturer in the hearth 13 

## industry to be considered a small business. 14 

## We use publicly available information to 15 

## research small business, contacted small businesses 16 

## directly and also asked other manufacturers for 17 

## information about small business during the course of 18 

## interviews. As mentioned repeatedly over the course 19 

## of the day manufacturers have expressed concern that 20 

## a standard eliminating standard pilot lights would 21 

## impact their ability to compete with large 22 

## manufacturers.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## This concern stems largely from a 2 

## difference in purchasing power between small and 3 

## large manufacturers and the idea that because large 4 

## manufacturers produce at higher volumes they would be 5 

## able to source components at a lower per unit price. 6 

## To evaluate these concerns we modeled the 7 

## difference in cost that small manufacturers might 8 

## face when sourcing electronic ignition system 9 

## components at lower volumes. The regulatory 10 

## flexibility analysis included in section 6B of the 11 

## NOPR and also discussed in chapter 12 of the TSD 12 

## presents the results of that analysis and in short it 13 

## suggests that a standard eliminating standing pilot 14 

## lights could lead to a higher increase in per unit 15 

## MPC's for manufacturers producing at lower volumes 16 

## relative to manufacturers producing at higher 17 

## volumes. 18 

## Would anyone like to comment on that 19 

## before I move on to the discussion of gas log set 20 

## manufacturers, yes? 21 

## MR. GOLDMAN: Yes this is Jack Goldman of 22 

## HPBA. I guess this comment was made earlier but INotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## guess we would like to know who the other large 2 

## manufacturers are, we count one or two and I'm the 3 

## trade association president, I know my members, I 4 

## know the players in the industry I just don't know 5 

## who those other companies are and I think if a third 6 

## of the companies are considered large and they are 7 

## really just one or two I think it really changes the 8 

## results of this analysis so I would like to know who 9 

## they are. 10 

## MR. BORTZ: Who are of the -- 11 

## MR. GOLDMAN: The 22 large companies. 12 

## MR. BORTZ: They actually have a list and 13 

## some of the 90 that they had at the beginning were 14 

## foreign owned companies. 15 

## MS. LEWIS: That does include foreign 16 

## manufacturers. 17 

## MR. GOLDMAN: Even with that I don't see 18 

## the numbers. 19 

## MR. BORTZ: Well I said that the number is 20 

## more like 3,000 entities affected by it and I changed 21 

## my mind now I think it's more like 4,000 and I am 22 

## being honest, Leslie Bortz again. By 90 is aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## specific number that you have, I went through it and 2 

## there were so many that were large, and there are so 3 

## many that were foreign and you came up with 66 out of 4 

## 90, that part is right, the 90 isn't right. 5 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you Leslie, 6 

## yeah? 7 

## MS. LEWIS: Thank you. 8 

## MR. GOLDMAN: Where is the list? 9 

## MS. LEWIS: The list is published in I 10 

## believe chapter 3 of the technical support document 11 

## and to clarify how we determine the number of 12 

## manufacturers, we are focused on manufacturers of the 13 

## final product that would be tested and sort of 14 

## certified to comply with this standard so we are 15 

## looking at manufacturers of a gas fireplace or a gas 16 

## log set as opposed to the components. 17 

## We also don't count multiple subsidiaries 18 

## of the same parent company, some manufacturers may 19 

## have a wide variety of brands but we would only count 20 

## those based on the one parent company. 21 

## MR. GOLDMAN: If a large company in Europe 22 

## sells a little bit in this country are theyNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## considered a large manufacturer for this analysis? 2 

## MS. LEWIS: They would be. 3 

## MR. GOLDMAN: That's just absolutely 4 

## wrong. 5 

## MS. LEWIS: Well I would definitely invite 6 

## you to look at the list included in chapter 3 of the 7 

## TSD and please come back to us with comments you know 8 

## if you feel we have mischaracterized anything. 9 

## MR. GOLDMAN: There are two major European 10 

## companies that sell in the U.S. through U.S. 11 

## subsidiaries and they aren't major and their U.S. 12 

## operations are small. And that's it, after that 13 

## there might be a company that sells a handful of 14 

## stoves and if they are considered large and not 15 

## affected then the effect you are having is to have 16 

## more foreign ownership and production of stoves at 17 

## the cost of U.S. operations. I just think if that is 18 

## your assumption you are absolutely false. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't think anyone 20 

## this is Ashley, I think you mischaracterized that 21 

## because I don't think we are saying they are not 22 

## going to be affected, I don't think that's fair toNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## say that the Department's analysis at all suggests 2 

## that, it is just that we are required to look 3 

## specifically at small businesses and the small 4 

## businesses are set up by definition and the 5 

## definition is not something that DOE creates of 6 

## itself, it is something that is a size standard that 7 

## is created by SBA and includes subsidiaries and all 8 

## that kind of stuff, it has nothing to do with sales. 9 

## So I'm not here to argue with you. 10 

## MR. GOLDMAN: I've resisted saying this -- 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Please let me finish 12 

## because I sat here and let you finish all day. 13 

## MR. GOLDMAN: I've spoken twice. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well you don't have to be 15 

## rude. 16 

## MR. GOLDMAN: Oh so I'm rude, you have 17 

## never been rude today? 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Ashley finish, 19 

## let's let Ashley finish, go ahead. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: My point was that we have 21 

## our list, its publicly available we would welcome 22 

## your input on it but it has nothing to do with salesNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## so that is all I was trying to say and clarify. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jack do you wish to 3 

## continue? 4 

## MR. GOLDMAN: I think if you had talked 5 

## with us at our offer to talk with you years ago we 6 

## wouldn't be having this discussion now. 7 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay I'm going to take 8 

## final comments here because we have to get through 9 

## the rest of these slides, Rett? 10 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Yes on the list that is in 11 

## chapter 3 you have either got a single asterisk, two 12 

## asterisks or no asterisk. It shows that all the 13 

## foreign manufacturers therefore would be -- or you 14 

## didn't classify them by size or they are all large 15 

## manufacturers according to your asterisk chart here, 16 

## the way that you have applied the asterisk, so I 17 

## would find that that is probably hard to believe that 18 

## every foreign manufacturer is greater than 500 19 

## employees. 20 

## MS. LEWIS: I believe most of them were 21 

## large, I don' t know the number off the top of my 22 

## head and I think often it has to do with a parentNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## company so you have a smaller subsidiary that might 2 

## in itself appear to be a small company but it is 3 

## owned by some multi-national firm. 4 

## MR. BROOKMAN: I think we are gaining 5 

## ground on this -- 6 

## MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest isn't the issue 7 

## -- excuse me. 8 

## MR. BORTZ: Take a look at my list of 9 

## 3,000 and you will decide how many there are but 10 

## there are more than 66 names that are going to be 11 

## seriously affected by this rule. 12 

## MS. LEWIS: And the last point to that is 13 

## that 66 also does exclude distributors and retailers 14 

## and that may account for part of the difference in 15 

## the numbers we are discussing. 16 

## MR. BORTZ: That causes a big jump of 17 

## making up the difference there are still entities 18 

## that will be affected by this rule, whatever you call 19 

## them they are still businesses, small businesses in 20 

## the United States. 21 

## MS. LEWIS: Thank you, moving on to the 22 

## subgroup analysis for manufacturers of gas log sets.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## In researching the market we identified 23 gas log 2 

## set manufacturers including 17 small businesses 3 

## during interviews manufacturers stressed that gas log 4 

## sets represent a distinct market segment. 5 

## MR. BORTZ: Wait a second -- I'm sorry. 6 

## MS. LEWIS: Unlike many other hearth 7 

## products they are designed for use in existing wood 8 

## burning fireplaces. They compete with wood and wax 9 

## logs and unlike some other hearth products as we have 10 

## discussed today their sales do not follow trends in 11 

## new housing construction. 12 

## Manufacturers also noted that electronic 13 

## ignition systems take up more space than standing 14 

## pilot lights and cannot be as easily concealed in gas 15 

## log sets which are not sold as part of packaged units 16 

## in the same way many other products are. 17 

## Manufacturers also indicated that electric 18 

## outlets may not be located in close enough proximity 19 

## to existing wood-burning fireplaces to easily 20 

## accommodate installation which could require the use 21 

## of batteries or extension cords or else drive up 22 

## installation costs.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## Finally manufacturers expressed concern 2 

## that a transitione to electronic ignition systems 3 

## could drive up the price of gas log sets and in doing 4 

## so lead to a decline in consumer demand. 5 

## To address that concern we looked at the 6 

## increase in MPC that a switch to electronic ignition 7 

## systems would likely entail. This table shows the 8 

## percentage increase in MPC for different types of gas 9 

## hearth products estimated to result from a switch 10 

## from standing pilot light units to units with 11 

## electronic ignition systems and as we can see impacts 12 

## are most severe for gas log sets, for vented gas log 13 

## sets we are looking at an increase of 37% of MPC, for 14 

## unvented gas log sets, 27% of MPC which compares to 15 

## 9% and 11% increases for vented and unvented 16 

## fireplaces, inserts and stoves respectively. 17 

## Outdoor hearth products also fall in the 18 

## same range as the gas log sets however there were a 19 

## few factors that would likely mitigate impacts on 20 

## outdoor hearth products including the fact that they 21 

## would have the option to transition to less expensive 22 

## matchless systems which unvented gas log sets are notNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## allowed under ANSI standards. 2 

## At this time I would like to request 3 

## comment and feedback on this analysis or anything 4 

## else we discussed as part of the manufacturer impact 5 

## analysis. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie. 7 

## MR. BORTZ: Leslie. It says that your 8 

## vented gas log set price of going up 37% our price is 9 

## up by 71%, that's our price on our price list, that's 10 

## what we charge. We are not in business to overcharge 11 

## for stuff because they we can't sell it. Our price 12 

## is up 71% for doing that. 13 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you. Additional 14 

## comments before we move on? 15 

## MR. BORTZ: Which doesn't include the cost 16 

## of installation which is probably another 250 bucks 17 

## or more additionally, the price has more than 18 

## doubled. 19 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Rett? 20 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen. I would 21 

## like to bring up that the incremental -- when you buy 22 

## a car they sell you on the base and then they go upNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## in incremental amount to sell you the sport package 2 

## or the luxury package or things like that and your 3 

## incremental cost to go to that additional benefit is 4 

## a small portion. You have already been sold on the 5 

## big part. 6 

## The problem you have with unvented gas log 7 

## sets is right now they have manual safety controls, 8 

## millivolt controls with wall switches, go up to 9 

## remotes and then electronic ignition. This proposal 10 

## would take then from zero not buying an unvented gas 11 

## log set to the full enchilada up to with an 12 

## electronic ignition system. 13 

## With vented gas log sets some people will 14 

## be able to continue to buy natural gas, match lighted 15 

## ones and then make the full leap to electronic 16 

## ignition systems. For propane vented ones they are 17 

## in the same boat as the vent free propane ones, it's 18 

## all or nothing so you don't have that ability to ease 19 

## somebody into the higher price. 20 

## That is going to severely impact the 21 

## consumers buying decisions because they have to 22 

## swallow the big pill. Some of the other savings thatNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## come up as far as you know environmental savings and 2 

## this and that, that's not money that they can take 3 

## off of the purchase price that's just vapor savings, 4 

## that has nothing that influences consumer choice and 5 

## consumer demand, thank you. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie, keep that 7 

## microphone close. 8 

## MR. BORTZ: We answered a question from 9 

## Navigant how would energy conservation standards 10 

## impact the companies' manufacturing capacity in both 11 

## the short and long term. In the short term we would 12 

## have a lot of excess capacity and in the long term we 13 

## would likely be out of business. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Moving on to emissions 15 

## analysis and James is this where you want to comment? 16 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes. 17 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Get ready. 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I am Greg Rosenquist 19 

## stepping in David Siap who had to catch an airplane. 20 

## Next analysis is the emissions analysis. This is 21 

## where we take energy savings from the national impact 22 

## analysis and convert them to emission savings forNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## carbon dioxide, NOx, N20 methane, SO2 and mercury and 2 

## we do this by DOE does this by looking at the annual 3 

## energy outlook and deriving emission factors for each 4 

## one of these emissions that you see there. 5 

## This is the results of the analysis this 6 

## is the amount of savings that come as a result of the 7 

## energy savings that we will calculate from the 8 

## national impact analysis. 9 

## And then the next step is to-- 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: James, please. 11 

## MR. HOUCK: James Houck. The reason that 12 

## I am sort of slow to start -- I don't know where to 13 

## start it is so complex and there is so much 14 

## information here but I will say this. I would ask 15 

## you why are we doing this, what is the most important 16 

## thing here and I say what's paramount is human health 17 

## and welfare. This has been neglected in this role. 18 

## Air quality as measured by the standard 19 

## air quality metrics in the United States has this air 20 

## pollutants criteria air pollutants, climate change 21 

## agents will all be impacted negatively by this rule. 22 

## And going along with this will be the health andNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## safety not really the air quality, but the health and 2 

## safety of residential occupants and I'll explain why. 3 

## Really there are two categories of hearth 4 

## products here. There is a gas log sets and the gas 5 

## fireplace inserts at least for this analysis on air 6 

## pollution there is two categories. These are 7 

## retrofitted in the wood burning fireplaces if you got 8 

## a gas log set you should put it into a wood 9 

## fireplace. No longer do you have a wood fire, now 10 

## you have a gas fire that's one category. 11 

## The other category are free-standing 12 

## fireplaces sometimes called gas stoves and also the 13 

## traditional gas fireplace everything thinks about 14 

## wall mounted or inserted into the wall. In the 15 

## future these are in new homes or remodeling. A 16 

## consumer has a choice, they can choose wood or they 17 

## can choose gas results in some electric, but 18 

## primarily the two choices are wood and gas. 19 

## So if a person does not choose gas the 20 

## alternative is probably wood. We have all heard 21 

## today that this is going to cause a significant 22 

## increase in the cost of particularly gas log sets butNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## other gas hearth appliances as well. Therefore a 2 

## consumer, like most consumers, are going to be 3 

## discouraged in purchasing a gas fireplace in a new 4 

## construction or retro-fitting their existing wood 5 

## fireplace. 6 

## Now why is this important? The emissions 7 

## from solid fuel combustion, solid fuel fireplaces are 8 

## dramatically, dramatically higher than they are from 9 

## gas appliances. This is why they are recognized by 10 

## many state and local air quality regulators, many of 11 

## them either specifically require, encourage, specify 12 

## whatever adjective you would like for people to use 13 

## gas fireplaces rather than wood fireplaces. 14 

## So when I saw in the federal register in 15 

## addition the proposed hearth products standards would 16 

## have significant environmental benefits I kind of 17 

## went oh my goodness this is not right. 18 

## Specifically in terms of health impacts is 19 

## fine particles. Now this has been a big issues in 20 

## the United States and is often referred to as PM2.5. 21 

## A number of state and local regulatory agencies are 22 

## struggling with obtaining national ambient airNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## quality standards. 2 

## A national air quality standards are 3 

## mandated under the Clean Air Act. U.S. EPA requires 4 

## state and local air quality jurisdictions to obtain 5 

## national quality standards. They are required to 6 

## come up with the state implementation plan if they 7 

## don't and a maintenance plan if they are marginal. 8 

## Frequently again frequently state and 9 

## local air quality agencies say you should you have 10 

## to, again there are various adjectives as a way to 11 

## discourage wood burning and encourage gas burning 12 

## because they all recognize that the air quality 13 

## issues associated with wood is more serious than gas. 14 

## So criteria pollutants, okay criteria 15 

## pollutants are set forth under Section 109 of the 16 

## Clean Air Act, 40 CFR Part 50 requires the 17 

## administrator of the EPA to do things about it, I'm 18 

## simplifying things because I know we are all tired 19 

## here. There are 6 criteria air pollutants two of 20 

## which are very important here and one is carbon 21 

## monoxide and the other as I alluded to is fine 22 

## particles.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## I managed to work and there is very little 2 

## work out there, we actually compared in a realistic 3 

## fashion air emissions from wood combustion fireplace 4 

## used in a typical fashion and gas combustion in a 5 

## typical fireplace, actually several fireplaces and we 6 

## found that again consistent with pretty much 7 

## everyone's intuitive understanding that there were 8 

## 148 times more carbon monoxide emitted in a typical 9 

## fireplace used with wood burning wood than there was 10 

## with natural gas. 11 

## And amazingly, amazingly 568 times more 12 

## particles, fine particles emitted from wood 13 

## combustion than with natural gas and even more 14 

## significant particles -- fine particles less than 2 15 

## and microns that are produced from combustion are 16 

## very small particles, they are sub-micron, they call 17 

## these sub-microns and those are the most health 18 

## injurious of all particles. 19 

## So wood combustion in the fireplace turns 20 

## to criteria pollutants, again regulated in the Clean 21 

## Air Act, a problem for many state and local air 22 

## quality jurisdiction, widely recognized as an impactNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## to human health and welfare are going to be very 2 

## negatively affected by this proposed rule, simply 3 

## because people are going to choose less gas 4 

## appliances because they are going to cost more and I 5 

## would argue what I am hearing of gas log set with 6 

## some kind of unattractive box they are going to be 7 

## less attractive. 8 

## The criteria pollutants are just one, the 9 

## other is hazardous air pollutants, known as HAPS, the 10 

## acronym HAPS that is also defined under the Clean Air 11 

## Act, actually the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, 12 

## at Section 122 and I'll read this sentence because it 13 

## is easier to read it: 14 

## HAPS are also known as toxic air 15 

## pollutants or air toxins and are those air pollutants 16 

## that cause or may cause cancer or other serious 17 

## health effects, such as reproductive effects or birth 18 

## defects or adverse environmental and ecological 19 

## effects. 20 

## Originally the list was 187 that has gone 21 

## up and down a little bit. Many of them are organic 22 

## compounds and I know most of you are not organicNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## chemists but when you look at the chemical makeup of 2 

## wood, cellulose, lignin, hemicellulose, resins you 3 

## would expect a number of the compounds specifically 4 

## listed on the HAPS list to be emitted by the 5 

## incomplete combustion of wood and this includes and 6 

## you will recognize some of these as bad actors: 7 

## Cetalaldohyde, benzene, catechol, cresol 8 

## (o,m and p) dibenzofurans, ethyl benezene, 9 

## formaldehyde, hexane, methanol which is also known as 10 

## wood alcohol by the way and there is a reason for 11 

## that name, naphthalene, phenol, propionaldehyde, 12 

## styrene, toluene, xylenes (o,m,p) isomers and 13 

## polyclic organic matter. 14 

## And that's just a few. EPA selected this 15 

## list because these are the kinds of things that are 16 

## common and common industry in North America but I 17 

## would always say there are more of any compounds than 18 

## there are stars in the universe so there would 19 

## probably be many other toxic air pollutants, organic 20 

## compounds emitted from wood combustion that are not 21 

## on this list. 22 

## We specifically measured some of theseNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## HAPS compounds. Formaldehyde there were 64 times 2 

## more masses of formaldehyde emitted from wood 3 

## combustion than there was gas combustion, 13 times 4 

## more benzene and 107 times more of polyclic organic 5 

## matter. 6 

## Again as I noted that there is both -- 7 

## there are many organic compounds that are on the list 8 

## that are toxic and these would be in a particular 9 

## phase or in the vapor phase and petition between the 10 

## two. As I noted there was 568 times more particles 11 

## emitted, particles, wood combustion are 70 to 90% 12 

## organic compound saw a lot of them are in there and 13 

## also we measured vapor in this test and there was a 14 

## parameter called non-methane vault or organic 15 

## compound MVOC and we found that there were 30 times 16 

## more mass of MVOC emitted from wood combustion then 17 

## there was from gas combustion. 18 

## So the two regulatory metrics of local air 19 

## quality degradation compound pollutants that are 20 

## found in the United States unquestionably residential 21 

## wood combustion emits a tremendous amount more. 22 

## Now climate change, well climate change inNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## the past people have said well you know buy a mass 2 

## combustion the carbon dioxide emitted from that is 3 

## biomass neutral people plants photosynthesis it and 4 

## take it back. That may be true there is some 5 

## argument on that. 6 

## Also methane is 80% excuse me natural gas 7 

## is 80% to 90% methane and so people say well there is 8 

## periods of losses from natural gas, notwithstanding 9 

## the fact that there might be a credit for the carbon 10 

## dioxide from biomass combustion and that methane from 11 

## the leakage of our transmission system of natural gas 12 

## may contribute to greenhouse gas, still wood 13 

## combustion in a fireplace produces more of a climate 14 

## impact than does natural gas combustion. 15 

## And the reason being recent and I say 16 

## recent in the last decade recognition that black 17 

## carbon is a serious greenhouse gas agent and it's a 18 

## pretty complicated story but I refer anyone who wants 19 

## to research this EPA's 2012 report to Congress on 20 

## black carbon which is readily available on the web 21 

## gives a pretty good description of the whole issue. 22 

## One thing I want to point out though thatNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## may not be apparent in reading this document is there 2 

## are two reasons that black carbon is considered a bad 3 

## greenhouse gas actor. One is basically absorption of 4 

## energy because it is black in the atmosphere. The 5 

## other is changing to snow, makes snow black and that 6 

## causes light energy to absorbed rather than to be 7 

## reflected. This is particularly relevant and bad for 8 

## residential wood combustion because a smokestack 9 

## chimney from a fireplace is close to the ground, it's 10 

## 15 to 30 feet off the ground and by the very nature 11 

## fireplaces are often used where there is ice and snow 12 

## so you have something that directly impacts the ice 13 

## and snow and it is there when the ice and snow is 14 

## there. 15 

## So I would argue that the black carbon is 16 

## even a bigger issue than one would thing from 17 

## residential fireplace combustion, so that's the air 18 

## quality issues. But hand in hand with that is there 19 

## is home safety. And I cite from the notes here the 20 

## National Fire Protection Association, in their 21 

## document which again you could find there are many of 22 

## them on the web you can find.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## In the time period 2004 to 2008 they cited 2 

## 26 times more structural fires from solid fuel 3 

## fireplaces than they did from gas fireplaces. The 4 

## primary reason is creosol accumulation. The very 5 

## same thing that produces fine particles produces 6 

## organic vapors that condense on the walls of a 7 

## chimney when a chimney is cold and I think many of 8 

## you have heart of chimney fires and that's what 9 

## causes the structural fires. 10 

## Now this 26 times more structural fires is 11 

## real because when you add up the number of using VO 12 

## numbers, the number of fireplaces that are used for 13 

## secondary heat that are natural gas and propane it's 14 

## pretty close the number of wood fireplaces used for 15 

## secondary heat, so there is 26 times more fires is a 16 

## pretty good reflection of the bigger risk in terms of 17 

## safety in the home. 18 

## That 22,500 fires caused 17 that's what 19 

## the number is for residential wood combustion, 22,500 20 

## fires caused 17 civilian deaths, 96 civilian injuries 21 

## and 172 million dollars in direct property damage as 22 

## compared to the 860 fires that were caused by naturalNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## gas fireplaces which was 0 civilian deaths, 13 2 

## civilian injuries and 30 million dollars in direct 3 

## property damage. 4 

## And then there is one more thing and it 5 

## relates to the air quality. Because residential wood 6 

## combustion produces much more air pollutants and 7 

## because you have with a wood fire place an open 8 

## chimney situation where you have a smoldering fire at 9 

## the end of the burn the draft lessens as the fire box 10 

## temperature cools yet you are still producing 11 

## particulates and carbon monoxide, particularly carbon 12 

## monoxide. 13 

## And anecdotally and I can finish this up 14 

## when you go to a person's home that has a wood 15 

## fireplace you often smell the wood smoke smell, 16 

## that's a manifestation of the back spill of 17 

## pollutants into the home, thank you. 18 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay thank you yes Leslie. 19 

## MR. BORTZ: Can I ask Jim was some of that 20 

## work done on our products? 21 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes this is Jim Houck, yes it 22 

## was. I can tell you the brief specifics there were 3Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## different natural gas products and 1 LPG product that 2 

## was compared against residential fireplaces. 3 

## MR. BORTZ: I can only say that in our 4 

## products he didn't use enough wood to compare it to 5 

## because 11 - 15 pounds or whatever it was a small 6 

## amount of wood a guy who builds a real fire builds it 7 

## with 18 to 20 pounds of wood so his number is off by 8 

## another third there would be much more problem with 9 

## wood. 10 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 

## MR. BORTZ: Because a guy who builds a big 12 

## fire doesn't build an 11-15 pound. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE 14 

## and I want to thank you for that -- that was actually 15 

## informative to me. Getting back to I think the part 16 

## of the argument you made that is of most interest to 17 

## our analysis is the presumption that the wood and the 18 

## gas are perfect substitutes for one another. 19 

## So my question to you is you have 20 

## mentioned how the maybe not so much for log sets, but 21 

## the industry has been moving towards the ignition and 22 

## we have gone through some periods lately whereNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## natural gas prices have had some pretty big ups and 2 

## volatility to say the least. Some years it was 3 

## really, really high gas prices in the not too distant 4 

## past. 5 

## I was wondering if you can correlate these 6 

## economic impacts to your consumers with switching 7 

## from wood to gas over that same time period so that 8 

## we could potentially build this sort of fuel 9 

## switching model that you are suggesting by you know 10 

## making the price of your product a little bit more 11 

## expensive. The presumption is they will switch to 12 

## wood but I guess I would like to know how or if you 13 

## have data or anything like that to support it. 14 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Leslie? 15 

## MR. BORTZ: I have data on our sales and 16 

## there is no correlation at all that I can see. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Very helpful. 18 

## MR. BORTZ: The correlations that I saw 19 

## were after September 11, 2001 the whole place shut 20 

## down but after events Sandy whatever where ice 21 

## storms, whatever we would get a big pickup in sales 22 

## of both vented and unvented, I think probably moreNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## unvented logs because of 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The lack of electricity or 3



## -- 4 

## MR. BORTZ: But I don't see any 5 

## correlation. 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And that was my question 7 

## to press or to build in a fuel switching model would 8 

## be nice to have some economic behavior that suggests 9 

## that that actually exists because my thinking with 10 

## the wood is that it is generally not marketed in the 11 

## people that are using wood primarily are in areas 12 

## where they are not actually paying for the fuel, they 13 

## have wood at their disposal so. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: Go out and take a look at the 15 

## people who are selling wood. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No there are some but I 17 

## think there has been a long trend of that declining 18 

## here in the northeast anyway. 19 

## MR. BORTZ: Wood burning fireplaces. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim do you want to make an 21 

## additional comment? 22 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes in response to that.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Again it's just another 2 

## data request. I'm not saying what you are saying is 3 

## incorrect I'm just -- I would like to see some data 4 

## that would allow us to actually do an analysis over 5 

## the fuel switching here because we do it for other 6 

## products because we see it. 7 

## MR. BORTZ: You want data that shows. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean HEA a long time 9 

## ago, because you know I have been in this business I 10 

## hate to say it for over 25 years now, they used to do 11 

## a fuel switching survey that actually included wood 12 

## and natural gas and they did look at fireplaces as 13 

## well at one point in time. 14 

## MR. BORTZ: I think that when gas is 15 

## plentiful and as you know since the beginning of the 16 

## 1970's gas has been either going to be out of -- 17 

## there's going to be no gas in three years or we are 18 

## going to have 100 years supply or there's no gas, you 19 

## know it has gone up and down. 20 

## Obviously when gas is plentiful it is 21 

## easy, you get more buy because the gas companies want 22 

## it.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: And I think for the 2 

## consumer it's a convenience thing right, the gas 3 

## product is much easier to use than the wood product. 4 

## MR. BORTZ: Right now if you compare and I 5 

## think our log sets would be comparable on this the 6 

## cost of natural gas compared to the gas of wood, the 7 

## cost of natural gas is one-quarter per hour in Los 8 

## Angeles, I didn't do it everywhere but -- in Los 9 

## Angeles it has high prices for wood and reasonably 10 

## high prices for gas but higher for wood. 11 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Jim a follow up? 12 

## MR. HOUCK: Yes in response to John's 13 

## questions, comments there. First of all your thought 14 

## about the purchase of wood and that's not entirely 15 

## true there is some fraction of people that do both 16 

## and actually its very outdated but it is one of your 17 

## REC studies is back in the days before there were 18 

## electronic and I can't remember the exact date I 19 

## think it's like 1993 or something like that. 20 

## There's actually a question as to why do 21 

## you buy wood and it's a substantial fraction I think 22 

## over half that buy their wood so that's one thing.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## The other thing is fuel switching. It is very 2 

## difficult to get a direct correlation, just like my 3 

## comment was on the correlating thing that's how these 4 

## are because there are so many things going on. 5 

## But one only gets by looking at the 6 

## Department of Energy records you need to look at for 7 

## example the fraction of people that heat their home 8 

## with coal. In 1949 over half the people in this 9 

## country heated with coal as natural gas network 10 

## because more prevalent and inexpensive that went away 11 

## with other issues too but now less than a tenth of a 12 

## percent heat with coal and over 70% heat with natural 13 

## gas first air furnace. 14 

## Similarly during the 70's there was a big 15 

## influx in the number of wood burning excuse me wood 16 

## burning stoves because of the concern of the 17 

## availability and cost of fossil fuels so yes there 18 

## are certainly trends that get an exact one you could 19 

## use in modeling I'm not sure about that. 20 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Tim Ballo? 21 

## MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earth Justice 22 

## and just to follow along here because I do care aboutNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## what happens in the air. There's a couple of points 2 

## though I think we need to get to the bottom of the 3 

## relative use duty cycles for a fireplace versus gas 4 

## logs. I mean obviously if I have to flick a switch I 5 

## am going to you know, and I don't have to stack wood 6 

## and build a fire it's somewhat easier to use the 7 

## appliance that might be used more often. 8 

## The other thing that I just want to 9 

## encourage the Department to consider if you do want 10 

## to go down the path of doing this kind of detailed 11 

## analysis which I think you know would definitely help 12 

## inform the analysis for the proposal is to consider 13 

## as you do sort of the full fuel cycle approach to 14 

## energy throughout the rest of the analysis do so here 15 

## as well because you know the production and the 16 

## extraction of natural gas imposes a lot of 17 

## environmental harms but I don't necessarily -- that I 18 

## think are different from the environmental harms 19 

## created by wood, production of wood for heating 20 

## including some of the same HAP air toxic issues that 21 

## were discussed that original from wood burning. 22 

## A lot of that same nasty stuff is producedNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## when gas is produced. 2 

## MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 3 

## MR. STANONIK: I'm just going to because 4 

## we are getting close to 5 I'm just going to jump here 5 

## because there's a point I want to make that was kind 6 

## of alluded to but I think it's important because at 7 

## the moment DOE's analysis has totally discounted it 8 

## and that's the fact that the analysis assumes there 9 

## is no change in the utility of the product by this 10 

## requirement and I think it needs to be recognized 11 

## that if these products do have a utility -- let me 12 

## rephrase that. 13 

## Those models of these products that don't 14 

## require any external electric supply have a very real 15 

## utility that when those customers, those homeowners 16 

## lose electric power they have a source of heat and 17 

## that is for the people who have those products and 18 

## are in that situation that's a very real and very 19 

## important utility and I think DOE at the moment the 20 

## analysis is just discounted that this proposal might 21 

## have any effect on utility and I think that's 22 

## incorrect.Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I have a question, this 2 

## is Ashley and Frank can follow up and this is purely 3 

## from my own experiences but I actually have a 4 

## fireplace it's vented though that has EI and its 5 

## fully functional when the power is off so I guess I'm 6 

## asking you is there a certain part of the market that 7 

## you know either without electricity would be impacted 8 

## because mine is fully functional when the hurricane 9 

## hit my house and I had several days without it, the 10 

## battery is fine, it worked fine. 11 

## So is there something with the EI that 12 

## prevents it in certain situations? I'm just trying 13 

## to understand that. Mine was made by someone here. 14 

## MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik so actually 15 

## my point was that okay so if you are going to go down 16 

## -- if you are doing this analysis okay and let's say 17 

## your options no -- let me rephrase that. The options 18 

## you should look at would be EI that requires an 19 

## external power supply okay or EI that doesn't okay. 20 

## Now obviously the ones that don't still 21 

## have the utility but I think and again your products 22 

## are obviously working very well but I think for theNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## manufacturers there are significant questions and 2 

## issues still about reliability and whatever else with 3 

## those types of systems and then you still have to get 4 

## to that issue of okay so again I don't know how often 5 

## do you have to change your battery I don't know, it's 6 

## another cost, right. 7 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Rett Rasmussen, Ashley is 8 

## your fireplace a wood burning fireplace or a gas 9 

## fireplace -- it's a gas fireplace unit. There are 10 

## all different types of electronic ignition systems 11 

## out there. There are ones that are battery powered 12 

## only there are some that have their 120 with battery 13 

## backup -- 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: They are both. 15 

## MR. RASMUSSEN: Alone so you know there is 16 

## all those variety of types. I did want to mention 17 

## one thing you know in response to Tim. In switching 18 

## from wood to gas that there is quite a bit of usage 19 

## due to the convenience of gas -- there is for the 20 

## first month until they get the first gas bill and 21 

## then it's pretty self-regulating. People enjoy the 22 

## convenience of it until they realize that there is aNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## cost of actually having to pay for all of that gas 2 

## and then they temper themselves back to what their 3 

## budgets are and what they really -- the impact they 4 

## want to feel of their usage of that product so yes, 5 

## big spike first month tails off after that, okay. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So as it is almost just a 7 

## few minutes before five, we should take final remarks 8 

## briefly for closure here. 9 

## MR. DAY: I want to make one comment on 10 

## the battery issue and that is you know there are 11 

## products that are sold with IPI with battery backup 12 

## for power outages and so forth and that's great but 13 

## if you know one of the President's points in his 14 

## climate plan is that we need to be resilient as a 15 

## society we are seeing more and more extreme weather 16 

## events and the studies that have been done on that to 17 

## really look at what went wrong in Katrina and what 18 

## could we do better. 19 

## One of the first things that comes out of 20 

## that is batteries are almost the first thing to go 21 

## and it's just -- that has been the experience 22 

## whenever there is a problem and you know the shortNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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## answer I think is that having a system that requires 2 

## batteries in a major power outage situation can't 3 

## compete with having a product that requires no 4 

## external source of electricity, it is not equivalent, 5 

## thank you. 6 

## MR. BROOKMAN: So then closing remarks 7 

## from John Cymbalsky. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks everyone for coming 9 

## I really do appreciate the dialogue that we did, we 10 

## gained a lot of useful insight from you and we hope 11 

## we continue to throughout the comment period. We 12 

## have heard from a few of you about an extension and 13 

## so obviously we are open to that we just need a 14 

## letter and a reason why you need an extension and of 15 

## course DOE will consider that upon receipt. Yes, a 16 

## PDF letter to me would be perfectly acceptable and 17 

## then we will consider that comment extension based on 18 

## the reasons given within. 19 

## So for those of you traveling get home 20 

## safe and again we really do appreciate your 21 

## attendance and your conversation today, bye. 22 

## (Whereupon at 5:01 p.m. the meetingNotice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

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### 1 

## adjourned) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 338 **A a.m**  1:12 **AA** 204:16 **ability** 16:7 17:2 19:4,8 29:14 47:3 57:18 214:13 245:4 281:20 300:21 311:18 **able** 10:9 14:4 37:12 38:1 74:7 75:2 122:21 130:17 136:18 137:8 143:18 164:14 165:21 243:5 244:17 246:17 282:11 283:1 ,12 286:10 287:21 289:15 290:12 301:5 311:14 **absence** 113:10 132:16 170:22 174:5 197:11 259:15 275:17 **absent** 168:10 275:12 **absolute** 283:13 **absolutely** 88:4 93:16 115:12 137:9 197:21 211:15 220:8 ,11 304:3 ,18 **absorbed** 322:6 **absorption** 322:3 **abundant** 41:17 **ACCA** 165:7 166:21 **accept** 19:9 137:19 **acceptable** 289:14 336:16 **accepted** 96:16 **access** 236:6 **accessible** 10:5 71:19 **accessory** 247:16 **accidentally** 249:19 **accommodate** 39:6 290:15 308:20 **accomplish** 133:20 290:7 ,8 **accomplished** 291:21 **account** 31:7 57:3 144:20 159:7 189:2,10 224:1 225:18 229:11 231:5 ,7 232:18 233:21 ,22 258:19

261:1 ,3 266:6,19 281:2 284:3 285:22 288:11 307:14 **accounted** 159:10 200:13 284:14 **accounting** 273:17 **accounts** 256:11 273:15 **accrue** 155:16 **accrued** 213:19 **accumulate** 156:1 **accumulation** 323:4 **accuracy** 123:12 205:22 **accurate** 45:12 130:15 **accurately** 128:22 **ACE** 7:21 **achieve** 14:5 25:13 51:21 58:17 126:14 293:3 **achieved** 286:17 **achieves** 131:18 **achieving** 40:2 50:13 **acknowledge** 43:7 115:21 232:16 288:22 **acknowledged** 35:9 48:7 **acknowledges** 22:10 37:11 50:2 **acronym** 318:10 **ACS** 248:6 **act** 19:14 42:15 43:9 43:12 57:7 72:15 316:3 ,16 317:21 318:11 ,11 **action** 7:15 19:16 277:3 **actions** 287:7 **activated** 46:14 **active** 99:7 130:3 188:9 **activity** 128:14 **actor** 322:3 **actors** 319:6 **actual** 51:5 53:1 173:3 189:15 204:17 ,19 205:10 214:21 252:10 273:19 **Adam** 3:2 7:1 **adapt** 38:21 **add** 38:10 39:9 49:2 157:2 196:22 200:14,15 214:7 266:2 275:6 323:11 **added** 38:1 47:22 48:9 104:6 196:20 **adding** 28:1 38:16 48:21 135:12 **addition** 22:11 38:16 39:13 48:19 51:21 57:13 60:11 61:6 243:21 266:5 280:19 284:1 315:15 **additional** 13:13 20:13 21:17 40:17 40:19 43:13 ,21 44:2,6 49:6 61:1 64:10 72:6 79:14 112:7 117:19 128:19 132:20 140:9 153:16 162:11 168:22 186:21 209:12 231:8 253:9 260:2 275:22 286:1 ,5 298:5 ,6 310:13 311:3 327:21 **additionally** 138:13 310:17 **address** 14:9 15:9 15:20 16:13 17:10 17:12 20:7 ,9 46:9 46:15 67:10 78:4 84:11 94:20 96:4 103:7 106:18 132:3 133:9 219:6 309:5 **addressed** 25:22 48:6 51:3 111:3 **addresses** 199:18 210:11 **addressing** 61:11 102:16 **adds** 38:6 59:8 **adequate** 13:16 244:13 ,16 **adequately** 230:12 **adjacent** 28:17 **adjective** 315:12 **adjectives** 316:10 **adjourned** 337:1 **adjust** 46:19 130:18 223:22 **adjustable** 46:20 48:1

**adjusted** 123:2,3 251:18 258:17 **adjustment** 207:6,7 223:21 **adjustments** 285:4 **Administered** 72:15 **Administration's** 300:10 **administrative** 282:20 **administrator** 316:17 **admits** 31:22 42:5 **adopt** 36:4 **adopted** 33:21 56:5 56:15 **adopts** 289:2 **ads** 44:2 **advanced** 65:20 **advantage** 32:14 **advantages** 281:21 **adverse** 38:8 48:14 318:18 **adversely** 29:10 42:14 43:1 **advised** 55:16 **advisedly** 96:1 **AEO** 251:9 262:17 263:13 268:4,5 **AEO's** 266:14 **aesthetic** 37:4 38:13 47:1 48:14 51:21 110:15 ,19 **aesthetically** 29:12 **aesthetics** 36:1 ,16 74:15 77:4 201:17 201:21 **affect** 29:10 42:14 147:5 **affiliation** 5:4 63:7 **afford** 57:18 **afraid** 92:22 **age** 255:20 **agencies** 56:3 315:21 316:9 **agency** 56:15 **agenda** 8:7 ,9 9:12 **agent** 321:17 **agents** 56:8 313:21 **aggregate** 24:7 76:4 **aggregated** 178:17 258:19 260:17 **aggregating** 76:10 **agnostic** 150:7 **ago** 17:15 95:6 111:15 128:12 133:13 209:5 218:18 220:6 224:10 236:1 240:15 245:2 306:5 328:9 **agree** 32:6,12 69:6 89:7 ,9 106:19 109:15 ,15 111:5 116:1 155:15 170:2 172:20 180:3 183:18 220:16 239:13 242:3 286:16 **Agreed** 150:12 **agreement** 78:14 **agrees** 38:16 **ahead** 103:16 109:2 121:5 125:10 140:15 ,18 151:8 152:7 153:7 ,10 154:13 160:2 168:18 170:2 172:18 177:1 185:9,10 192:1 201:9 227:19 258:7 289:9 299:13 300:4 305:19 **AHRI** 67:21 72:11 90:15 95:16 118:22 120:3 127:18 132:7 144:3 187:14 188:12 221:16 227:20 **aid** 293:14 **aim** 137:3 **aimed** 16:2 **air** 6:3 9:19 32:20 51:20 52:2 55:17 56:8 ,9,12 57:22 60:7 124:13 137:10,12 138:9 138:10 169:9,13 190:10 191:8 194:22 230:7 ,7 ,9 231:9 313:18 ,19 313:19,20 314:1 ,5 315:10,22 316:2,3 316:4,9,12,16,19 317:3 ,21 ,21 318:9 318:10,11 ,14,15 318:15 319:19 320:18 322:17 324:5 ,6 330:13Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 339 331:1 ,20 **Air-Conditioning** 2:17 3:15 **airplane** 312:19 **alcohol** 36:7 319:10 **allergens** 58:1 **allow** 13:16 18:15 47:10 245:18 246:17 328:4 **allowance** 189:3 246:21 **allowed** 33:1 98:21 207:12 216:20,21 226:7 310:1 **allowing** 52:1 59:11 286:11 **allows** 29:21 46:19 178:2 220:20 266:17 280:22 **alluded** 229:22 316:21 332:6 **alternative** 39:16 55:5 ,9 58:11 ,19 95:18 193:5 277:8 277:9 314:20 **alternatives** 59:4,7 276:21 277:2 278:4,5 **amazingly** 317:11 317:11 **ambience** 220:19 221:9 **ambient** 315:22 **ambiguity** 108:13 **ambiguous** 27:1 **amended** 65:1 276:22 **Amendments** 318:11 **America** 12:9 57:15 86:9 235:10 319:16 **American** 2:22 6:5 56:5 72:15 **amount** 51:20 134:7 137:15 143:15 160:21 205:15 311:1 313:6 320:21 325:6 **analyses** 24:3 280:13 **analysis** 8:17 ,19,22 8:22 9:1 ,3 ,4,4 12:15 ,21 13:4,7 13:15 14:22 15:8 20:4 21:11 37:6 42:2 43:9 45:15

46:1 ,2 52:22 53:3 53:15 54:1 ,15 55:19 56:18 ,22 65:22 69:3 87:20 100:1 101:12 103:9,11 104:10 107:4,8 109:6 112:17 113:20 114:3 115:12,13 117:3 118:5 122:10,10 124:17 130:14 135:4,5 139:9 140:18 ,20 142:10 143:2 157:10 158:12 159:2 160:4,8,10 160:13 ,19 163:12 163:15 ,18,19 171:2 173:21 174:4 176:20 181:6 182:4 185:19,22 186:7 189:7 202:18 ,18 202:22,22 204:2 205:5 206:13 211:15 ,17 223:21 228:1 ,9,17 230:15 232:18 238:21 239:7 ,22 240:16 244:12 255:14 257:22 260:12 262:5 269:7 271:12 272:8 ,12 272:12,19 276:14 276:19 278:13 ,16 279:9 280:8 ,17 ,18 282:14 288:11 ,22 294:7 297:7 301:10,12 302:8 304:1 305:1 307:22 310:3 ,5 312:15 ,20,20,22 313:5 ,8 314:5 325:17 328:4 331:11 ,12,14 332:7 ,8,20 333:16 **analyst** 41:15 **analytical** 11:4 **analyze** 87:17 108:5 111:5 133:2 156:13 159:3 283:1 **analyzed** 109:19 118:4 121:18 134:13 157:3 164:10 166:11

222:8 **analyzing** 16:16 157:4 **and/or** 239:7 **anecdotal** 217:5 ,18 218:10 **anecdotally** 250:5 324:13 **Angeles** 56:9 329:8 329:9 **animal** 170:18 **animals** 33:4 170:16 **animating** 83:18 **annual** 76:4 130:18 185:20 188:14 193:8 ,9 240:22 248:15 ,17 279:22 280:17 313:2 **annually** 31:7 **ANSI** 69:20 70:12 126:15 223:8 299:19 310:1 **answer** 80:9 81:2 84:21 97:16,17 103:8 104:8 113:19 120:19 122:12 146:18 147:4 172:13 244:19 247:14 287:15 336:1 **answered** 109:1 312:8 **answers** 95:10,11 174:12,13 **anti-condensation** 247:15 **anticipate** 30:13 45:1 **anticipating** 296:16 **anybody** 98:8 246:8 250:2 **anymore** 237:4 **anyway** 225:3 288:20 327:18 **anyways** 140:19 **APA** 72:15 **apart** 107:7 114:2 155:11 **apologize** 133:7 161:11 244:7 245:22 **apparent** 81:4 322:1 **apparently** 79:21 **appeal** 51:21 110:16,19

**appear** 307:2 **appearance** 38:15 **Appearances** 2:1 **appears** 22:7 124:10 **appendix** 224:9 **appliance** 11:2 12:10 15:19 35:21 48:11 74:13 76:20 77:6,12,20 93:19 138:9,20 220:10 225:19 230:22 231:3 331:7 **appliances** 14:16 21:6 27:11 123:15 214:10,12 220:17 223:9 233:19,22 242:22 256:2 267:3 315:1 ,9 318:4 **applicable** 219:3 **application** 139:6 146:22 147:13 ,13 147:20 174:3 **applications** 25:10 25:12 62:4 138:11 146:22 147:17 205:13 234:11 235:1 247:18 250:22 292:22 293:2 **applied** 15:4 57:5 138:8 166:13 175:1 ,10 176:1 ,2 233:16 269:2 282:17 306:16 **applies** 58:16 139:14 175:18 266:15 271:13 **apply** 22:5 ,22 62:19 99:16 166:14 **applying** 198:6 242:22 273:1 **appreciate** 81:11 102:6 108:14 112:5 242:19 257:3 286:13 336:9,20 **appreciates** 248:4 **appreciation** 244:13 244:16 287:20 **approach** 82:15 98:13 ,16 127:14 135:11 138:3 331:13 **approaches** 11:4

135:10 **approaching** 119:15 **appropriate** 17:3 185:3 222:13 241:2,2 **approximately** 34:13 52:9 54:2 166:5 **April** 11:17 21:20 25:19 293:15 **Aquila** 3:6 **architectural** 217:15 **area** 128:15 190:7 228:6 248:14 251:8 290:10 **areas** 15:7 19:19 23:21 33:12 195:3 238:20 327:11 **argue** 229:17 230:10 305:9 318:5 322:15 **arguing** 82:17 **argument** 90:2 321:5 325:16 **arises** 138:8 **arithmetic** 185:4 **Armstrong** 2:4 4:12 4:13 6:14,14 81:9 81:10 84:20 91:22 102:12,14 103:17 105:18 107:2 109:12 110:1 112:12,20 115:11 116:8 122:11 132:22 145:3 ,12 146:17 147:4 152:20 154:18 157:8 ,19 158:5 ,8 158:11 ,17 159:1 159:18 169:5 170:15 ,19 171:10 171:13 ,19 172:9 172:22 182:2,11 182:17 ,20 183:3 ,9 183:13 ,17 184:5 185:6 238:18 242:1 ,13 246:4,9 246:21 259:10 270:13 276:2 288:5 290:22 304:19 305:11 ,14 305:20 333:1 334:14Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 340 **art** 236:11 **article** 17:14,18 18:4 54:10 209:2 209:7 236:4,6,12 **articulate** 101:11 **articulated** 215:16 **artificially** 50:17 **ashes** 58:3 **Ashley** 2:4 4:12 6:14 81:9,10 87:13 102:12 103:13 ,15 106:1 109:13 112:12,21 115:11 116:8 118:7 122:17 132:22 147:7 154:18 162:12 169:6 242:1 ,20 304:20 305:18 ,19 333:2 334:7 **Ashley's** 185:14 191:18 **ASHRAE** 92:19 **aside** 14:1 82:16 **asked** 91:9 103:20 131:13 149:17 199:10 201:14 291:17 300:16 **asking** 84:8 91:15 100:13 204:11 206:22 289:8 293:10 333:6 **asks** 202:2 **aspect** 12:21 15:8 **assemble** 249:16 **assembled** 260:4 **assembly** 141:2 **assert** 171:14,16 **asserted** 211:21 212:6 **assertion** 212:3 ,4 **assess** 52:22 99:4 139:15 278:18 **assessing** 138:20 157:6,7 **assessment** 8:15 114:1 116:17 117:2,4,12 118:1 123:11 125:5 ,13 135:2 142:8 144:7 152:16 156:17 157:6,22 280:16 **assessments** 156:7 **assets** 285:2 **assigned** 285:3 ,22 **assigning** 135:16 **associated** 242:9 316:13 **Associates** 5:21 **association** 2:10,11 2:13 ,15 ,22 5:6,8 5:11 ,13 ,22 6:6 7:17 12:7 ,8 20:18 20:19 56:5 61:7 84:22 105:13 117:17 ,18 122:20 192:18 302:3 322:20 **assume** 19:12 90:16 94:15 168:4 187:7 188:22 189:12 219:19 241:11 ,16 254:3 261:8 **assumed** 52:8 135:19 141:6 184:14 219:18 225:16 226:19 227:1 ,5 253:14,18 **assumes** 17:16,17 17:20 19:1 37:15 54:15 200:18 219:22 264:2 283:8 ,16 332:8 **assuming** 15:2 55:19 56:21 132:16 189:11 225:4 245:12 275:11 294:1 **assumption** 19:5 139:19,22 168:2 172:1 174:6,7 181:5 213:13 231:22 245:15 247:6 267:1 285:16 304:18 **assumptions** 87:20 220:4 224:11 228:22 239:7 ,15 259:7 **asterisk** 306:11 ,12 306:15 ,16 **asterisks** 306:12 **astounded** 263:14 **Atlantic** 5:21 **atmosphere** 322:4 **attached** 205:21 **attempt** 45:13 91:3 **attempting** 14:15 39:11 **attendance** 336:21 **attention** 108:14 **attest** 287:10 **attitudes** 18:19 218:14 **attorney** 73:8 ,8 **attractive** 43:4 318:7 **attributed** 71:1 **attributes** 114:7 **attuned** 185:12 **authority** 8:14 16:5 63:1 ,19 64:6,10 64:18 72:16 75:12 76:1 **automatically** 223:6 **automobiles** 64:8 **availability** 276:4 330:17 **available** 9:17 19:8 21:18 29:20 30:7 30:18 39:5 59:5 99:5 117:14 133:21 140:7 209:1 214:1 237:16 239:9 243:5 247:20 279:21 285:10,19 290:18 300:14 305:21 321:20 **Avenue** 1:6 **average** 52:15 88:1 88:4 100:22 162:4 204:11 ,20,21 ,22 219:17 ,20 220:1 221:17 224:2 229:15 241:8 243:4 244:2 248:13 ,15 251:6,7 256:3 ,15 257:8 263:10 295:5 **averages** 206:17 **averaging** 88:2 **avoid** 19:7 51:3 76:11 96:17 **avoiding** 96:20 **aware** 90:17 210:7 216:18 **awful** 137:20 **B b-vent**  118:10 **back** 7:7 48:4 49:8 68:22 72:22 73:13 82:14 91:7 95:13 96:13 97:10 102:4 102:4,7 ,15 ,18 103:4,11 ,17 104:15 108:10 141:12 142:7

144:1 145:15 151:10 153:6 154:17 ,19 157:22 158:8 159:18 162:22 163:10 169:5 173:6 181:4 185:2 190:6,20 191:17 195:13 196:13 202:21 207:18 208:4 212:2 213:19 214:1 215:12 235:22 239:17 244:6 260:1 261:19 268:3 ,6 291:7 294:6 304:7 321:4 324:16 325:15 329:17 335:2 **back-up** 259:16 **backup** 33:6 62:4,5 71:16 334:13 335:11 **bad** 188:13 237:17 319:6 322:2,7 **badge** 101:20 162:17 **ball** 88:2 265:5 **ballgame** 211:6 **Ballo** 2:6 7:22,22 330:20,21 ,21 **Baltimore** 4:10 **ban** 35:16 85:17 **Barbecue** 2:11 ,12 2:14 5:6,8 **barbeque** 7:17 12:7 12:9 83:11 85:1 90:8 ,16 105:13 117:18 122:20 192:18 237:1 **barbeques** 34:21 36:11 93:1 ,9 **barn** 106:8 **Bart** 217:3 **Barton** 3:5 ,5 5:9 75:4 79:16,17 82:2,12 87:11 93:15 100:2,7 ,8 102:14,22 104:8 105:22 108:9 111:7 112:5 114:21 126:10 128:9 129:5 130:6 131:11 133:6 151:8 153:6,10 173:11 ,12 189:18

197:5 198:14,15 206:3 207:3 208:18 ,19 210:4,5 212:22 220:3 ,16 223:13 224:8 229:2 235:21 244:4,5 254:1 ,2 261:6,7 262:19 263:17 266:21 ,22 269:19 271:16 275:1 ,10 277:11 286:18 **base** 39:18 85:12 151:21 160:10 175:17 206:18 225:8 240:11 257:12,16 272:15 272:22 273:5 ,8,21 274:2 310:22 **based** 31:12,16 40:15 41:2 51:14 57:19 98:19 99:6 99:12 103:9 104:10 107:4,8,8 112:7 113:4 122:15 ,19 125:6 126:2 135:16 141:4,14 144:9 145:5 156:14 158:2 162:4 163:20 179:2,4,20 184:3 ,13 186:14 201:13 205:2 207:3 211:15 213:17 215:11 219:1 225:15 226:5 ,6 233:9 249:3 253:19 255:21 256:8 259:7 266:3 270:8 271:19 286:2 299:6 300:10 303:20 336:17 **baseline** 139:22 141:16,20 142:13 142:15 ,18,20 147:16 151:3 163:21 174:19,21 175:1 ,1 ,2,11 ,18 175:18 ,19 176:1 178:14,17 **basement** 19:18 **basic** 12:18 ,22 14:21 15:5 ,12 174:15 245:17Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 341 **basically** 11:13 71:12 115:5 135:5 222:6 226:17 252:4 255:15 291:9 322:3 **basing** 213:13 234:10 **basis** 12:14 13:14 15:15 17:13 19:5 44:17 167:20 174:7 202:17 203:16 225:5 283:14 **batteries** 29:6,8 31:7 38:14 71:16 189:5 ,8,10,17 308:21 335:20 336:2 **battery** 28:6 29:18 30:11 40:11 47:9 47:19,22 189:4 204:16 333:10 334:5 ,11 ,12 335:10,11 **becoming** 211:22 **beg** 264:14 **beginning** 93:18 194:15 252:18 267:16 302:13 328:15 **begins** 54:1 **behalf** 23:22 **behavior** 16:2,6,11 17:9 18:18 19:2 22:15 198:12 210:14,16,20 233:15 234:3 ,5 ,10 234:20 236:2,10 237:4 277:12 327:8 **believe** 13:20 21:10 23:18 25:1 26:3 45:6 53:3 62:11 67:7 69:21 97:7 97:14,18 104:11 109:16 116:11 120:22 129:15 132:14 134:18 156:8 172:12,14 177:7 205:17 213:2,7 216:12 229:7 236:3 245:2 249:9 265:11 269:3 303:10 306:17 ,20 **believed** 107:10 **believes** 21:6 43:7

**beneficial** 60:19 186:19 277:9 **benefit** 31:9 55:20 56:22 58:14 71:3 71:17 159:2,21 195:15 203:2,15 229:12 230:3 274:14 311:3 **benefits** 19:11 56:17 60:13 84:17 114:4 155:3 203:16 229:8 230:11 231:7 315:16 **benezene** 319:8 **benzene** 319:7 320:4 **Berkeley** 3:18 ,19 6:18 ,21 45:19 163:14 297:6 **best** 14:10 44:16 131:18 156:1 216:3 290:4,18 **better** 42:20 82:10 92:9,10 151:6 176:6,11 189:22 199:15 264:10 269:9 271:14 279:17 282:11 335:18 **betterment** 293:19 **beyond** 52:4 **big** 33:19 117:6 134:6 162:20 191:6 291:11 296:12 307:16 311:5 ,22 315:19 325:11 326:1 ,21 330:14 335:5 **bigger** 288:15 290:20 322:16 323:16 **biggest** 286:22 **bill** 33:16 135:15 ,16 193:21 334:20 **billion** 274:12,14 **binary** 47:12 **bins** 228:18 **biomass** 321:3 ,10 **birth** 318:17 **bit** 32:4 66:18 121:19 124:18 125:14,20 127:4 134:11 147:8 178:11 187:12 216:7 229:5 238:19 263:7

275:7 297:9 303:22 318:21 326:10 334:18 **black** 321:16,20 322:2,4,5 ,15 **blank** 174:3 ,4 **blanks** 211:17 ,18 **blew** 244:7 **blip** 267:12 **block** 54:22 **blockage** 33:7 **blow** 44:8 **blown** 87:6 **blows** 84:3 **board** 212:14 **boat** 311:17 **Bob** 8:1 **books** 69:9 **borrow** 228:13 **Bortz** 2:7 5:18 ,18 34:9,9,10,17 59:14 89:14,22 90:6 91:6,9 97:14 108:22 109:3 ,8,21 112:10,14 114:13 120:22 134:5 ,17 134:17 136:10 137:14 140:14,16 153:2,9 154:15 ,17 156:6,16 157:4,12 158:16,21 161:11 161:11 ,14,17 ,21 164:19,22 165:3 ,3 165:9,13 166:1 168:13 ,13 ,20 169:1 ,16 171:12 171:18 172:6,12 175:12,12,20 176:5 ,10 177:2,10 178:20 179:2,8,10 179:15 ,19 180:2 180:12,14,20 181:9,13 ,17 182:1 182:8 ,16,19 183:2 183:8 ,10,15 185:11 ,16 190:13 190:16,22 191:2 191:11 ,14,21 192:11 194:2,5 ,16 195:9 198:14,14 198:18 ,21 199:2,5 203:11 ,19 207:15 207:22 208:7 209:16,16,20 238:8 241:11 ,11 241:15 242:12

250:11 252:13 ,20 253:1 254:20 255:18 258:6,13 258:21 260:6 271:3 ,8,10,21 276:15 295:10 296:22 297:2,10 299:14 300:2 302:10,12,19,22 307:8 ,16 308:5 310:7 ,15 312:8 324:19 325:3 ,11 326:15 ,18 327:4 327:14,19 328:7 328:14 329:4 **bottom** 85:12,13 155:14 166:16 178:16,20 230:16 241:16 256:17 260:20 284:7 331:2 **bottomed** 294:13 **bound** 226:14 283:7 **box** 28:17 ,18 30:5 32:21 74:18 91:14 162:9 186:5 191:20,20 318:6 324:9 **boxes** 11:12,14 238:16,16 **bracket** 240:18 **brands** 23:13 303:19 **break** 8:16,17 9:2 44:16 98:12 101:16,17 ,18 102:17 104:15 108:10 122:3 160:16 162:13 ,16 261:17 ,19 284:5 **breakdown** 158:1 ,4 **breakout** 151:11 231:14 **brief** 8:8 ,11 12:1 ,2 59:18 71:9,18 186:1 324:22 **briefly** 59:22 64:4 70:6 71:2 221:10 248:12 274:2 335:8 **bright** 290:7 **bring** 9:7 209:22 310:21 **bringing** 108:14 294:5 **brings** 133:1 177:13

250:20 **broad** 35:18 39:10 83:15 86:18 113:5 **broader** 244:15 288:15 297:4 **broadly** 85:1 **broke** 166:2,5 **broken** 241:19 269:21 **Brookman** 2:2 4:2,9 4:22 6:15 7:7 ,13 8:3 12:1 20:13 23:5 26:2,7 ,12 34:6,16 59:13 ,16 59:22 60:4,15 62:15 63:14,18 65:12 67:2,11 ,19 68:10,14 69:16,22 70:3 72:6,22 73:12 74:22 78:12 79:14 81:9 84:6 84:19 86:2 87:11 89:12 91:7 ,11 92:5 ,15 93:12 95:4,15 97:13 98:10 100:5 ,7 101:17 102:9 103:13 105:10,21 108:20 109:2 111:7 ,12,17 112:4 114:12,17 ,21 116:15 118:21 120:21 121:4 122:17 123:6,9 124:14 125:1 126:10 127:17 128:9 129:11 ,21 130:21 131:4 132:6 133:6,10 134:2,21 135:1 136:9 137:1 ,22 139:7 140:13 141:13 143:6 144:1 146:19 147:7 ,21 149:2 151:8 152:7 153:6 153:10 154:14,16 156:5 159:17 160:1 ,14 161:10 161:13 162:2,9 163:8 164:20 165:1 ,11 ,17 ,19 166:9 167:3 ,9 168:18 ,21 169:3 171:20 172:18Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 342 173:9 174:17 177:1 ,8,11 178:8 178:19 185:9,14 185:17 187:1 ,11 188:20 189:18 ,20 190:3 191:22 192:15 193:11 ,14 193:20 194:4,10 194:19 195:11 ,22 196:10 197:5 198:13 201:9 202:11 203:9 205:9 206:3 ,14 207:14,19 208:3 ,9 210:4 212:11 ,20 213:5 ,15 214:6,17 216:4,15 217:3 219:8 220:3 ,14 221:15 223:3 ,7 ,12 225:20 227:19 229:2 230:13 231:11 235:7 ,21 238:7 ,15 241:10 241:13 242:18 243:6,11 244:5 246:3 ,8 247:3 248:9,21 249:15 249:21 250:3 ,10 250:15 251:4,15 252:12 253:7 254:1 ,14,19 255:2 256:18 258:7 260:5 ,13 261:5 ,17 261:22 262:4,19 263:5 264:15 ,17 264:19 266:4,21 268:1 270:2,14,21 271:2,7 ,9,16 272:3 ,6 275:1 ,22 276:17 278:2,12 286:6 287:18 288:1 ,4 289:9 290:21 291:2 293:20 294:5 295:9,12 297:15 298:3 299:13 300:1 ,3 303:5 305:18 306:2,7 307:4 310:6,13 ,19 312:6,14,17 313:10 324:18 325:10 326:14 327:20 329:11 330:20 332:2 335:6 336:6 **BROOKS** 199:6 **BROOMAN** 110:7

**brought** 222:11 **BTU** 30:10,20 47:5 47:7 206:5 252:21 **BTU's** 41:4 51:19 208:2 228:15 230:2 232:9,10,11 232:15 **bucks** 310:16 **budgets** 335:3 **build** 38:18 ,21 155:12 243:21 280:11 325:12 326:8 327:7 331:6 **build-up** 58:2 **builder** 172:8 177:21 **builders** 44:20 172:15 **building** 4:7 102:3 118:14 122:15 162:18 196:12,13 202:14,16 203:5 224:2,5 240:15 268:8 ,9 **buildings** 196:11 **builds** 325:6,6,11 **built** 37:10 39:1 ,6 53:21 105:16 179:13 **built-in** 106:6,12 119:4 **bulk** 10:13 237:1 ,7 237:8 **bump** 268:7 270:14 **bunch** 247:8 **bundle** 75:13 **burden** 23:2 42:5 99:13 203:2 279:7 **burdens** 59:9 **burdensome** 35:12 **bureau** 53:4 167:1 269:12,21 271:8 **burn** 51:20 324:9 **burn-wise** 55:15 **burned** 188:5 **burner** 46:14 54:22 87:4 130:2 148:5 186:15 188:1 204:6 206:4,16,21 208:1 219:13 ,14 219:15 ,16,17 ,20 219:21 221:11 ,17 221:19 222:1 ,4,5 222:6 223:2,15 ,16 223:18 ,20 224:9 **burners** 39:7

244:18 245:11 **burning** 16:3 19:20 22:19 23:11 27:7 29:5 35:17 36:6,6 36:7 ,7 37:9 39:15 40:8 41:3 42:11 46:11 49:8 ,9 51:10,11 ,13 ,14,17 51:18 52:1 54:20 55:5 ,9,16 56:1 ,13 58:9,12 59:1 ,7 125:18 132:11 ,15 132:21 205:21 308:8 314:7 316:11 ,11 317:9 327:19 330:15 ,16 331:21 334:8 **business** 7:10 26:16 31:18 35:4 42:17 42:18 ,22 43:17 44:6 45:2 86:22 133:22 178:3 253:4 270:4,20 289:22 290:2,3 ,16 290:17 299:4 300:10,11 ,13 ,15 300:17 310:10 312:13 328:9 **businesses** 31:12,17 32:16 34:3 ,18 42:14,17 43:3 ,6 43:13 ,22 45:1 61:10 62:13 173:19 279:2 295:2 300:7 ,9,15 305:3 ,4 307:19,19 308:2 **button** 18:14,16 236:22 245:8 **buy** 57:21 71:22 137:19 181:2 194:2,7 238:10 277:15 310:21 311:14 321:1 328:21 329:21 ,22 **buying** 42:10 190:17 215:15 311:10,21 **buys** 136:16,16 **bye** 336:21 **bypass** 247:16 **byproducts** 118:14 **C C**  4:1 **cabin** 101:5

**CABLE** 270:16 **cafeteria** 162:20 **calculate** 195:15 256:9 272:21 273:4 277:1 313:7 **calculated** 232:22 233:1 277:7 **calculates** 248:14 **calculation** 233:9 **calculations** 151:3 **calculus** 64:16 **Caldarena** 20:15 ,16 **Caldarera** 2:9 5:12 5:12 **California** 23:17 34:14 **call** 69:10,11 70:16 78:17 103:3 137:15 156:2 167:13 191:6 202:7 228:2 247:15 307:18 317:16 **called** 44:5 ,14 65:21 70:10 97:3 ,22 182:18 314:12 320:14 **calling** 24:20 149:22 183:14 221:22 292:8 **calls** 35:16 46:3 56:10 **Canada** 87:9 213:1 213:14 216:21 221:4 228:21 235:10,12 250:19 287:3 **Canadian** 216:6,17 216:21 217:2 226:6 235:9,19 **cancer** 318:16 **cap** 300:11 **capability** 246:19 **capable** 47:20 48:1 **capacity** 22:13 29:21 30:11 60:17 223:20 279:6 312:10,12 **capital** 284:7 ,11 ,22 296:5 **capture** 92:9 169:3 243:2 282:18 297:21 **car** 310:22 **carbon** 33:6 70:22 313:1 316:20 317:8 321:2,9,17 321:20 322:2,15 324:11 ,11 **cards** 7:10 **care** 330:22 **careful** 126:16 292:21 **Carolina** 23:17 **Caroline** 2:17 72:10 **Carroll** 2:11 5:7 ,7 73:2,2 91:13 92:2 129:12,12,17 **cart** 90:4 **case** 33:11 68:21 96:8 117:17 124:10 129:20 132:19 139:18 140:1 142:20 146:4 156:3 178:18 188:17 192:4,8 196:9 222:2 227:12,13 227:21 ,21 236:3 240:11 257:13 ,16 272:15 ,16,22 273:1 ,5 ,5 ,8,8,21 273:22 274:2,5 284:20 294:10,20 **cases** 171:7 189:13 193:13 232:5 282:10 **cash** 279:9,17 280:3 280:9,11 282:16 **catch** 286:9 312:19 **catching** 161:16 **catechol** 319:7 **categories** 36:22 61:22 80:17 ,18 99:22 104:1 106:19 115:21 116:4 125:16 136:11 141:18 142:6 152:1 158:2 158:19 159:14 166:3 ,4 172:11 183:21 200:16 216:8 259:7 284:6 288:18 289:5 ,6 314:3 ,6 **categorize** 123:14 **categorized** 124:7 **category** 16:9 31:5 37:5 83:19 94:11 97:2 106:10 118:15 121:17Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 343 123:2 158:14 199:3 201:5 314:10,11 **causal** 271:18 **cause** 33:8 46:17 47:14 123:15 314:21 318:16,16 **caused** 16:17 323:18 ,20,22 **causes** 307:16 322:6 323:9 **causing** 69:1 230:8 **cautiously** 287:1 **caveman** 213:19 **cavity** 251:2 **CC** 170:10 **cell** 9:21 170:8 **cellulose** 319:2 **census** 53:5 165:8 167:1 251:9 269:12,21 271:8 **center** 38:12 **centers** 23:16 **central** 15:16 93:21 94:14 **cents** 41:20 **CEO** 12:6 **certain** 10:19 64:14 76:4 82:3 114:7 ,9 116:9 141:6 238:20 239:2 289:5 ,6 333:6,12 **certainly** 16:7 125:6 128:2 136:21 144:12 167:18 250:18 259:6 265:3 ,9 276:9 286:3 ,13 287:10 330:18 **certification** 30:15 160:8 284:14 285:8 ,18 286:1 296:10 299:18 **certified** 299:19 303:14 **Cetalaldohyde** 319:7 **cetera** 143:4 166:6 273:18 **CFR** 316:16 **chain** 171:3 190:20 192:6 **chains** 183:20 **challenge** 62:2 217:8 **challenges** 37:18 61:20,21 ,22

**challenging** 28:3 29:11 **chance** 33:9 63:5 74:11 ,21 **change** 37:12 39:22 56:13 109:16 113:8 118:2 127:2 131:3 145:5 175:3 175:4 183:18 ,19 218:15 ,17 240:12 265:3 ,5 ,9 295:2 296:15 298:10 313:20 320:22,22 332:9 334:5 **changed** 41:12 66:4 82:6 157:6 204:15 265:2,3 ,8 276:5 276:10 302:20 **changes** 18:19 103:4 219:2 276:12 296:15 ,16 302:7 **changing** 128:16 129:2 218:15 322:5 **channel** 164:17 166:8 173:4 178:14 181:7 ,11 181:19 184:16 **channels** 44:11 164:1 ,3 ,10 181:5 182:5 ,7 ,9,12 **chapter** 301:11 303:10 304:6 306:11 **Characteristically** 218:6 **characteristics** 12:12 58:7 87:22 113:4 198:10 **characterization** 8:18 **characterize** 188:10 **characterized** 107:21 163:22 245:6 **characterizes** 196:14 **characterizing** 117:9 **charge** 56:8 86:6 310:10 **charged** 86:7 **charges** 191:4 **charging** 50:21 **chart** 39:20 143:8 144:5 212:18 241:16 257:4 258:8 306:15 **cheapest** 155:6,12 **check** 249:2 **chemical** 319:1 **chemists** 319:1 **chimney** 58:2,3 137:13 322:9 323:7 ,7 ,8 324:8 **chimneys** 230:4 **choice** 25:3 34:1 39:13 46:22 58:13 292:13 312:4 314:16 **choices** 314:18 **choose** 40:1 49:7 78:17 221:12 314:16,17 ,19 318:3 **chose** 114:1 **chosen** 41:22 **circuit** 138:7 **circumstance** 71:13 **citation** 67:11 **cite** 322:19 **cited** 17:17 ,20 54:9 56:19 323:1 **citing** 17:14 215:2 **citizens** 63:12 **civilian** 323:20,20 324:1 ,2 **claimed** 25:14 **claims** 259:16 **clarification** 13:12 24:2,9 25:18 ,21 251:17 291:12 **clarify** 13:19 14:5 21:16 22:4 116:1 175:9 184:20 242:2 261:7 270:22 303:11 306:1 **clarifying** 24:13 105:21 270:21 **clarity** 76:16 100:15 147:9 149:17 **class** 90:3 176:19 **classes** 99:18 119:6 **classification** 300:9 **classify** 64:10 306:14 **clause** 77:10 **clean** 108:1 269:8 316:3 ,16 317:20 318:10,11

**cleaner** 55:13 58:4 **clear** 14:3 16:5 50:8 50:10 60:16 102:6 113:9 203:4 247:14 **clearer** 97:8 188:19 **clearing** 152:12 167:2 **clearly** 76:7 **climate** 62:2,6,8 224:3 246:18 292:15 313:20 320:22,22 321:13 335:14 **climates** 235:15 282:11 **clock** 261:21 **clogged** 148:1 **close** 108:21 153:3 183:8 203:9 205:19 293:21 308:18 312:7 322:9 323:14 332:4 **closely** 22:16 **closets** 19:17 **closing** 9:6 50:6 291:4 292:4 294:2 336:6 **closure** 335:8 **coal** 36:6,8 330:8 ,9 330:12 **coast** 56:12 170:11 **codes** 92:21 **coefficient** 266:12 268:14 269:1 271:13 **coffee** 102:1 ,2 **coincident** 226:16 **cold** 32:20 33:1 ,1 ,2 33:13 62:2,6,6,8 220:19 230:8 243:15 245:7 246:18 323:7 **colder** 282:11 **collect** 238:2 **collected** 15:1 107:6 173:21 207:4 276:8 **collection** 12:15 **column** 230:18 ,20 231:4,6 258:1 ,3 **combination** 135:10 177:21 224:6 **combinations** 27:10 27:12,17

**combine** 54:17 269:17 **combined** 76:9 **combustion** 118:14 315:7 317:3 ,4,13 317:15 ,19 319:5 319:20 320:3 ,3 ,11 320:16,17 ,21 321:2,10,13 ,14 322:8 ,17 323:19 324:6 **come** 57:1 102:4 131:20 132:5 151:13 152:14 185:2 192:19 206:5 ,10 208:20 220:4,21 236:20 251:9 259:22 289:16 304:7 312:1 313:6 316:6 **comes** 122:7 128:19 136:5 144:16 191:8 216:19 249:14 258:9 335:19 **Comfort** 3:17 6:7 **comfortable** 63:3 222:22 **coming** 4:20 11:19 57:15 59:20 100:19 154:7 165:6 187:8 195:17 206:9 219:3 336:8 **commencing** 63:1 **comment** 11:7 ,13 11:16,17 ,20 13:6 13:11 ,16,17 ,18 14:6 15:11 21:19 21:20 23:3 25:19 25:20 27:4 60:17 64:4 67:4 70:6 71:2 74:8 ,11 ,18 74:19,20 78:11 88:11 90:13 91:14 91:14,20,21 92:1 93:14,16 94:6,7 95:3 101:2,3 109:14,17 110:5 111:4,6 114:10 116:14 129:5 130:22 131:4,9 140:19 141:11 151:6 157:18 161:8 162:9Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 344 165:21 171:21 173:9,13 189:19 189:21 194:19 201:10 207:12 209:1 212:22 213:17 215:8 216:16 217:5 227:3 238:15 ,16 242:13 243:11 ,12 254:9,10,14 255:3 255:4 260:2 269:8 270:19 286:4 292:7 293:8 296:11 301:18 ,22 310:3 312:15 327:21 330:3 335:9 336:11 ,17 **commented** 95:6 238:22 **commenters** 93:13 **commenting** 236:1 **comments** 4:19 8:11 9:12 10:16 20:14 23:3 27:2 34:7 43:10 60:19 62:19 68:6 72:7 73:7 75:1 79:15 ,16 84:9,22 95:13 100:9 102:19,22 104:16 105:6 108:7 ,11 112:6,7 124:15 ,19,22 125:10 126:2,8 133:16 141:9 162:11 168:22 184:14 190:3 235:11 ,11 242:4 242:14 250:14 253:9 261:5 269:11 ,17 ,20 275:20 276:1 288:2 289:11 291:4,10,19 296:14,20 297:11 297:16,18 298:4 304:7 306:8 310:14 329:13 **commercial** 122:2,4 122:15 224:6 **Commission** 70:21 **committee** 132:3 **common** 46:18 129:9 132:17 190:8 319:16,16 **commonly** 44:14 99:22 110:11 **communication**

46:7 **companies** 20:20,21 40:4 45:4,6,7 177:22 184:9 293:5 299:3 302:5 302:6,11 ,14 304:10 328:21 **companies'** 312:10 **company** 3:13 5:19 6:2 7:15 ,19 8:2 31:5 34:10,11 61:7 160:4 165:4 177:15 178:7 184:3 214:22 298:9 303:18 ,20 303:21 304:13 307:1 ,2 **comparable** 329:5 **compare** 325:4 329:4 **compared** 41:6 98:2 99:6 134:8 271:4 272:15 317:2 323:22 325:2 329:6 **compares** 82:11 309:14 **comparing** 139:13 **compelled** 275:11 **compete** 51:10 281:20 300:21 308:8 336:3 **competes** 267:19 **competition** 25:2 292:13 **competitive** 32:13 281:18 **complete** 9:16 26:9 **completed** 68:21 95:19 265:20 **completely** 17:7 ,21 18:2 19:3 23:1 24:21 75:12 88:3 126:12 128:14 130:12 153:20 224:11 ,12 237:5 259:20 267:14 292:9 **completion** 53:11 **completions** 53:4,7 53:8 ,16 54:5 262:16,17 **complex** 313:13 **complexity** 266:2 **compliant** 284:19 **complicated** 52:21 282:4 321:18 **complicating** 28:22 195:8 **comply** 67:17 ,17 115:22 274:5 281:4 284:4 296:4 303:14 **complying** 37:18 **component** 119:21 139:3 ,3 145:5 166:14,15 229:21 251:2 253:16,17 253:21 284:22 **components** 28:5 ,13 28:16,18,20,22 29:1 ,10,11 37:15 38:17 40:14 99:19 141:1 255:10 281:22 301:5 ,9 303:16 **composed** 43:3 **compound** 320:12 320:15 ,19 **compounds** 318:22 319:3 ,17 ,20 320:1 320:7 **compromise** 12:20 **COMPUTER** 270:16 **concealed** 308:14 **concedes** 37:6 **concentrating** 108:6 **concept** 100:12 286:16 **concern** 17:3 96:16 188:8 250:9 281:14,19 286:22 300:19 301:1 309:1 ,5 330:16 **concerned** 61:10 62:10 80:3 ,22 120:11 125:4 138:3 139:22 295:21 **concerning** 13:14 15:5 17:14 61:18 **concerns** 15:16 20:3 20:7 ,9 24:1 46:10 76:14 103:7 219:1 281:10 301:6 **concise** 9:19 **conclude** 80:8 **concluded** 99:10 217:7 **conclusion** 50:15 57:8 79:11

**conclusions** 236:9 **concur** 269:11 **condense** 323:6 **condition** 186:17 **conditioning** 6:4 169:9,14 231:9 **conditions** 138:19 224:3 292:14 **conduct** 279:8 280:6 **conducted** 95:19 278:17 279:15 **conducts** 22:2 **confidential** 117:15 126:3 152:2 161:7 207:1 **confidentially** 239:10 **configuration** 211:13 **confines** 48:5 **confirm** 162:3 **confirms** 70:21 **conflict** 251:1 **confusing** 36:15 **confusion** 81:12 104:19 123:16 **Congress** 75:15 76:2 321:19 **connect** 171:17 225:3 **connection** 243:20 271:18 **consecutive** 54:16 222:5 **conservation** 4:6 11:5 13:5 22:4,22 24:20 64:7 ,13 ,21 65:10 68:8 73:19 84:17 98:17 99:1 262:9 272:9 276:22 312:9 **conservations** 67:6 **conservative** 44:17 147:6 221:14 **conservatively** 40:16 204:21 **conserving** 287:5 **consider** 18:3 ,17 ,18 42:16 43:15 68:7 73:17 87:7 100:4 112:15 171:2 200:8 213:10 235:18 277:13 ,21 287:6,16 331:9,12 336:15 ,17

**considerable** 47:15 57:1 123:15 **consideration** 9:13 116:13 137:17 176:17 210:3 230:12 233:13 258:13 295:8 **considerations** 140:10 **considered** 15:14 36:9 69:13 98:17 99:8 100:10,16,18 114:6 117:20 136:7 148:19 210:19 214:15 238:12 243:20 300:13 302:6 304:1 ,14 322:2 **considering** 43:14 292:21 **consistent** 36:21 172:4 210:1 221:7 295:22 317:6 **consistently** 9:11 290:5 **consists** 284:10 **constant** 35:17 39:15 40:8 41:2 46:11 54:20 125:18 132:11 ,15 132:21 234:3 ,10 275:17 **constraints** 140:4 140:10 146:4 **constructed** 28:9 200:21 **construction** 28:14 31:3 53:12,19 164:4,7 168:16 178:13 179:4,14 180:5 ,18 182:15 184:12 308:11 315:4 **constructive** 20:10 100:17 101:6 108:15 111:3 ,6 **consultant** 2:19 7:12,14,20 60:6 117:1 160:3 **Consulting** 3:6 6:20 7:2,4,6 117:1 206:16 278:15 295:21 **consume** 51:19 **consumed** 189:1Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 345 199:11 205:13 225:12 **consumer** 16:2,6,11 16:16 17:9 18:10 18:18 ,19 19:2,12 22:15 25:3 31:20 32:10 38:14 39:13 39:21 ,22 40:19 41:5 46:19,21 47:4,12 49:5 50:9 51:18 52:10,16 59:4 64:8 ,11 70:20 71:17 ,19 74:3 107:14 131:3 163:20 164:2,7 ,8 174:22 175:2,5 176:3 177:19 181:8 ,16,21 183:5 184:7 193:20 210:14,20 215:18 218:14 236:10 240:2,14,20 241:4 241:17 ,19,21 256:14 264:22 267:7 270:8 273:9 274:14 277:4,4,12 292:13 299:7 309:4 312:4,5 314:16 315:2 329:2 **consumer's** 19:4 46:22 57:18 193:14 201:13 240:1 **consumers** 16:3 ,17 17:1 ,7 18:15 ,21 19:6,13 22:15 23:20 33:13 34:2 37:2 40:6 42:9 46:17 47:2,6,14 49:2 50:11 ,19 51:13 ,22 52:12,18 55:6,15 56:13 58:11 ,13 71:8 74:5 143:3 203:1 213:21 215:11 ,14 257:17 ,18 261:2,3 277:14 311:21 315:2 326:6 **consumes** 142:15 **consuming** 188:1 **consumption** 15:20 15:22 19:7 24:3 ,6 26:22 57:13 ,15 64:17 76:10 99:8 101:4 130:8 143:13 179:5 ,22

185:20 188:14 189:4 196:16 225:13 245:10 272:14 273:17 **contact** 45:19 73:8 **contacted** 300:15 **contemplate** 109:11 **contemplated** 109:6 **content** 59:19 61:3 62:16 73:13 280:12 **continue** 42:10 93:13 218:15 242:15 306:3 311:14 336:11 **continued** 54:13 156:16 **continues** 218:17 **continuous** 23:19 160:7 **contracted** 193:7 **contractor** 164:6,8 165:14,16 166:21 166:22 180:22 181:1 ,20 182:22 182:22 183:1 ,4,6 183:15 ,16,19 190:8 ,10,12 191:3 191:19 192:4 193:2,5 ,9,18 195:2 239:11 250:21 **contractors** 32:3 45:17 165:5 167:12 169:10 183:12 193:6,6 195:4 **contrary** 55:21 **contrast** 52:2 283:15 **contribute** 321:12 **contrived** 71:15 **control** 17:6 18:4 19:4 27:22 28:4,6 29:19 30:1 ,7 ,9,12 30:18 ,22 47:20 48:1 133:19 137:6 146:16 147:10,20 148:8 149:4,5 ,10 149:13 ,14,20 150:8 ,11 151:1 ,6 210:21 214:9 218:13 236:10 245:8 246:14 255:11 **controlled** 222:2

223:6 **controls** 2:21 6:11 18:11 ,14,15 ,17 ,21 18:21 29:16 30:4 71:18 129:14 131:14 132:2 170:5 211:7 ,9,14 236:12 311:7 ,8 **convenience** 329:2 334:19,22 **conversation** 30:9 82:18 97:11 157:20 336:21 **conversion** 281:2 284:3 ,6,7 ,9,11 ,12 284:16,22 285:3 ,6 285:21 298:4 **convert** 135:20 139:17 312:22 **converting** 139:19 **converts** 243:13 273:15 **cooking** 33:19 36:10 94:15 107:20 **cooling** 186:21 ,22 187:7 201:19 223:22 225:9,19 231:8 ,9,19,20 232:10,17 ,19 **cools** 324:10 **cooperate** 45:18 **cooperated** 45:9 **cords** 308:21 **Core** 266:12 **corners** 19:18 **correct** 93:17 112:13 ,14 130:19 145:12 148:18 150:17 169:18 176:9 185:2 194:14 223:12 231:22 275:14 **corrected** 12:19 **correctly** 202:19 **correlatable** 264:8 **correlate** 53:14 269:9 326:5 **correlated** 262:14 **correlating** 330:3 **correlation** 263:2,9 266:10,11 ,13 268:14 269:1 ,6 271:13 ,18 272:2 326:16 327:5 330:2 **correlations** 124:20

326:18 **cost** 31:7 32:7 38:6 39:14 40:8 ,17 41:7 ,17 48:21 50:17 ,20 52:7 ,16 58:10,13 ,21 59:6 133:18 135:7 ,12 138:21 140:10,22 141:21 142:1 145:4,4 146:4,8 147:1 151:2 155:15 158:17 159:2,21 160:4,8 160:10 175:16,17 189:4,6,8 192:5 194:18 202:18 ,22 203:7 ,16,17 239:21 240:2,9,9 240:13 ,13 ,18,19 240:19,21 241:5 241:16 242:6 243:2,4,8,16 244:1 ,2 245:14 253:14,15 ,18,21 253:21 254:21 255:16 260:18 261:4 267:21 272:17 273:6,9 284:3 ,16 285:3 298:11 299:15 ,16 299:17 ,21 301:7 304:17 310:15 311:3 314:22 318:4 329:6,7 330:17 334:6 335:1 **costed** 114:2 255:13 **costing** 189:15 **costs** 8:18 19:10 30:15 ,16 32:19 40:3 ,18,19 41:5 ,9 50:16 74:4 114:4 134:20 135:16 138:4 141:8 155:2 156:1 161:2,5 ,18 163:16,17 175:7 175:13 176:6 185:21 ,22 240:2,5 240:21 241:6 243:18 ,22 249:20 250:4,6,8 253:15 255:9,18 260:18 267:11 272:18 273:4,7 280:16 281:2,3 282:18 ,19 283:11 284:4,5 ,6

284:7 ,9,11 ,12,22 285:6,8 286:1 296:5 298:4 299:20 308:22 **Counsel** 5:9,11 **Counsel's** 6:13 **count** 188:7 302:2 303:17 ,19 **counted** 186:19,21 **countless** 27:6 **country** 34:19 45:5 54:5 56:8 87:9 195:3 303:22 330:9 **couple** 76:17 100:3 100:9 102:19 103:1 117:11 123:11 139:10 148:15 149:6 151:11 ,18 201:12 206:11 229:9 232:10,14 253:1 263:15 265:10 291:4 295:6 299:9 331:1 **course** 9:9 11:7 ,8 60:20 73:5 100:11 109:16 118:9,11 118:17 121:2,8,12 121:17 133:4 136:3 141:1 202:6 281:8 288:8 300:17 ,18 336:15 **cover** 10:14 64:18 75:8 79:21 81:7 83:2,11 ,11 ,12 85:8 91:5 93:9,9 109:3 ,8 112:11 115:6 116:19 162:16 **coverage** 14:9,10,13 21:22 24:15 64:16 65:4 66:13 68:7 73:7 88:21 ,22 95:6 102:21 104:17 105:3 110:9,21 113:13 113:15 ,16 115:2,5 122:6,12 **covered** 9:8 ,20 13:22 16:9 24:4 35:14 36:20 64:11 64:21 75:16,17 ,18 75:18 ,22 76:6 81:1 ,6,7 82:1Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 346 87:15 ,17 89:17 93:1 ,6,7 97:2,8,9 100:12 122:14 162:15 166:18 197:8 215:21 219:11 238:17 **covering** 94:15 156:10 **covers** 77:21 ,22 78:1 ,1 79:21 93:19,20,21 ,21 167:11 175:5 **craft** 92:8 108:12 **crap** 299:1 **crawl** 210:22 **crawling** 237:2 **create** 202:14 203:5 **created** 58:22 65:16 268:22 305:7 331:19 **creates** 33:5 305:5 **creating** 29:2 **credibility** 214:5 **credible** 17:11 **credit** 321:9 **credits** 277:5 **creosol** 323:4 **creosote** 58:2 **cresol** 319:7 **crimes** 86:6 **criteria** 64:15 73:16 313:20 316:14,14 316:19 317:20 318:8 **criterion** 84:6 **critical** 14:21 15:2 55:17 121:2 246:2 **criticized** 237:15 **cross** 77:1 162:5 **crunch** 272:1 **crunching** 275:15 **crystal** 265:5 **cultivated** 248:3 **cumulative** 37:16 273:6,8 279:6 **curiosity** 227:9 **curious** 159:5 **current** 12:17 24:3 49:14,19 133:17 179:4 189:3 248:15 **currently** 11:17 19:8 29:22 35:18 38:3 65:10 67:6 81:15 142:6,14 160:6 233:4 261:2 285:11

**custom** 27:20 **customer** 21:1 57:19 131:19 172:21 246:15 **customers** 21:1 57:19 59:1 ,6 193:2 247:21 286:19 332:15 **cut** 32:3 193:22,22 **CYBALSKY** 129:18 **cycle** 188:2 214:13 219:16,17 ,20,22 220:18 221:11 ,17 221:22 222:10,19 223:6 270:4,20 273:14 274:11 331:13 **cycles** 219:15 ,21 222:4,5 223:16 273:1 331:3 **cycling** 223:11 **cylinders** 22:12 **Cymbalsky** 2:3 10:22 11:1 ,2 63:21 ,22 67:14 73:1 ,14,15 78:10 90:9,13 98:14,15 101:14 109:5 110:22 114:18 116:18 122:13 ,18 129:4,16 130:5 ,13 142:22 156:12 157:1 ,9 161:16 190:5 ,14,19 191:5 191:13 ,17 194:11 200:3 ,12 208:4 212:9 234:2,7 ,12 235:2,5 236:15 237:6,11 ,14,21 238:5 249:11 251:20 252:21 253:3 258:8 260:11 261:14 268:13 ,22 271:12 325:13 326:17 327:2,6,16 328:1 328:8 329:1 336:7 336:8 **Cypress** 190:10 191:8 194:22 **D D**  4:1 **D.C** 1:7 4:8 **daily** 208:15 212:18

**damage** 33:8 60:10 248:4 323:21 324:3 **damaged** 29:2 **Dan** 6:5 **Dana** 3:7 63:5 ,8 67:2 69:16 125:1 125:2 131:7 137:22 138:1 147:7 ,21 ,22 149:16 162:2 171:21 172:18 ,19 213:15 ,16 214:8 220:14,15 242:18 247:3 ,4 250:16 286:6,7 287:20 **Daniel** 2:22 **dark** 33:14 **Darlington** 3:2 7:1 7:1 **data** 14:21 17:11 ,14 17:16,17 ,17 ,20 53:18 100:21 ,22 104:7 ,9 105:14 106:5 107:6 114:10,19 117:17 122:19 123:3 128:21 141:4 151:13 ,21 153:13 153:15 154:4,13 158:2 164:15 165:4,8 166:11 ,16 167:1 ,18 168:1 ,1 168:10 169:8 170:21 171:6 173:4,7 ,15 ,22 174:6,11 ,15 179:6 179:7 186:13 189:22 196:16 197:6,8,10,10,12 197:17 ,19,22 198:2,5 ,7 199:20 200:1 ,18 201:3 ,4 201:12 206:18 207:3 208:20 209:8 ,8 210:2,6,7 210:9 211:12,18 211:18 ,19,21 212:1 ,5 214:15 215:22 216:6,14 217:15 ,22 218:5 ,6 218:10,11 ,18,19 224:14,21 225:2,3 233:15 234:9,10 237:7 ,9,17 238:2 239:6,8,9,14,17

242:4,15 ,20 244:1 249:8 ,10,13 252:1 254:9 256:8 ,13 257:6,21 ,21 259:11 ,12,14,16 260:3 ,4,12 266:16 269:12 275:17 276:7 ,13 286:5 ,19 298:21 299:2,11 326:13 ,15 328:2,3 328:7 **date** 4:16 213:18 329:18 **Dave** 7:14 160:3 **David** 3:6,19 6:21 163:13 312:19 **Davidson-Hood** 2:17 72:9,10 **day** 3:5 ,5 5:9,9 8:5 9:5 ,20 75:5 79:18 82:12,13 84:8 87:12 93:16 100:3 100:6,7 ,8,8 106:1 108:17 ,19 111:8 111:14,19 113:19 113:22 114:8 ,9,22 116:1 126:11 127:10 128:10 129:1 130:6,6 131:16 133:5 ,6,7 151:9,17 153:11 162:15 173:12 176:12,20,22 189:19,21 197:6 198:17 ,19,22 199:3 ,16 200:10 200:13 206:4 207:2,3 ,6 208:19 208:19 209:12 210:5 ,5 212:1 ,4 217:4 220:4 224:8 224:8 229:15 232:12 235:22 236:17 237:9,13 237:20 238:3 244:6 249:19 250:1 ,5 254:2,2 254:10 259:2,18 261:7 ,12,16 262:20 266:22,22 271:17 ,22 272:4 275:2,10,18 277:11 288:8 297:8 300:19 305:12 335:9 **days** 108:7 213:19

229:14,18 329:17 333:9 **deadline** 21:20 23:3 25:20 293:16 **deal** 213:21 246:18 **dealer** 32:16 177:20 195:1 235:12 **dealing** 119:8 277:22 **death** 55:8 70:22 **deaths** 323:20 324:1 **debt** 256:9 **decade** 265:10 321:16 **decades** 265:10 **December** 65:5 66:9 68:13 **decide** 46:21 307:9 **decided** 196:17 **decision** 267:10 **decisions** 311:21 **deck** 11:11 208:5 **decline** 309:4 **declined** 18:8 **declining** 32:9 49:18 327:17 **decorative** 29:13 36:19 37:3 51:16 52:3 86:16,17 96:11 98:3 220:17 222:12 223:9,11 225:17 248:3 **decrease** 19:10 32:1 278:8 **decreased** 266:19 294:22 **deemed** 229:16 **deeper** 11:16 **defeat** 71:17 **defects** 318:18 **defer** 122:9 205:4 206:12 **deficient** 12:17 **define** 13:21 14:10 65:8 85:6 187:18 221:5 **defined** 15:21 25:1 85:12 108:4 119:12 128:3 142:14 318:10 **defining** 113:4,14 150:12 187:16 **definitely** 64:1 72:18 91:22 114:19 290:6Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 347 296:11 304:5 331:11 **definition** 14:7 22:3 22:21 24:12,15 ,18 27:2,3 ,4 35:13 ,17 35:19,20 36:5 ,10 36:14,17 ,20 65:6 68:2 69:7 ,7 74:12 74:21 76:16 77:11 77:20 78:2,11 ,14 78:15 ,18,21 79:9 79:10,15 ,19,20 81:16,16,21 82:6 82:9,11 83:15 84:10,14 86:18 87:15 89:5 ,5 90:10,10,12 91:1 91:4,15 ,18 92:1 ,9 93:4,14,18 94:2 94:16 95:18 ,22 97:15 98:22 99:9 99:17 100:11 ,13 102:20 103:6 104:11 ,17 ,20 105:7 ,9 107:11 109:7 111:11 112:21 ,22 113:3 ,9 113:12,12 117:8 119:8 132:11 ,14 132:17 ,20 148:21 156:9,10,13 ,15 ,21 157:7 ,13 ,14 170:17 198:19 215:13 291:13 305:4,5 **definitional** 111:8 115:1 ,3 215:12 **definitions** 92:19 96:10,17 97:5 ,6 108:4 112:8 **definitive** 131:14 132:5 **degradation** 320:19 **degree** 229:14 **degrees** 229:16,19 **Delaquila** 3:6 7:14 7:14 160:3 ,3 **delicate** 248:1 **delineating** 24:11 291:13 **deliver** 20:22 37:1 290:5 **delta** 147:5 **demand** 18:10,20 32:10 126:16 129:6,9 132:19 212:7 270:8 299:7

309:4 312:5 **demonstrate** 295:16 **demonstrates** 247:5 **demonstrating** 17:11 **Department** 1:1 ,5 2:1 4:8 9:11 10:4 35:7 62:20 65:17 81:13 105:6 165:19 330:6 331:9 **Department's** 305:1 **depend** 155:17 **depending** 46:22 172:21 196:7 225:19 226:3 **depends** 90:22 250:7 **depict** 145:7 **depicted** 106:22 110:9 **depiction** 130:15 **depletion** 118:17 119:3 ,21 146:15 **Depot** 177:17 **depth** 27:8 **depths** 196:13 **derived** 161:6 **deriving** 313:3 **describe** 110:18 **described** 41:15 **describing** 8:13 **description** 24:14 321:21 **design** 19:3 24:21 30:15 91:3 98:21 99:3 ,6,10 133:2 135:11 ,13 139:4 143:13 153:22 210:10 218:16 292:9 293:3 298:13 **designed** 15:19 17:5 25:13 27:15 36:15 36:16 37:1 ,3 40:14 42:8 46:12 49:9 50:5 84:4 90:18 107:15 108:2 126:19 130:7 153:22 154:2 202:6 244:21 308:7 **designing** 37:5 90:21 **designs** 25:10,12 292:22 293:2

**desire** 29:20 **desired** 131:18 **despite** 35:9 112:16 **detail** 60:14 62:17 139:4 162:13 167:12 169:4 282:15 **detailed** 60:19 104:20 288:1 331:10 **detection** 70:10 71:14 **determination** 64:16 65:4,7 68:4 68:6,20 69:4 72:13 ,19 73:7 78:16 88:21 ,22 94:4 95:8 96:6 97:12 102:21 104:18 110:2 113:13 ,16 115:6 203:22 **determine** 135:7 ,11 163:20 175:2 185:19 203:1 223:14 226:9 251:7 256:6 303:11 **determined** 31:10 68:19 186:4,7 ,12 188:14 204:2 206:12 219:12,14 219:18 223:18 ,20 225:9 226:15 240:6,7 241:4 253:19 **determines** 130:1 **determining** 73:19 135:15 206:9 **detracts** 38:15 **detriment** 57:1 **develop** 45:12 133:19 247:13 248:12 279:20 280:8 **developed** 29:16 79:1 126:13 ,13 131:15 174:18 240:14,19,21 280:1 ,19 284:2 286:2 287:15 **developing** 131:13 **development** 124:9 138:21 **device** 38:1 48:9 49:2 54:21 ,21 70:10,16 71:2 126:18 150:7 160:10 203:3 205:21 **devices** 126:18 150:10 245:9 **diagrams** 182:13 **dial** 236:22 **dialogue** 12:15 20:9 21:9 73:10 95:14 291:6 336:9 **diamond** 198:16,20 199:9 **dibenzofurans** 319:8 **die** 275:5 **difference** 53:6 92:20 119:17 122:5 134:6 135:7 138:5 144:22 146:2 157:9 175:10 240:10 271:4 272:14,17 273:2,6,7 ,10 301:2,7 307:14,17 **differences** 18:3 27:7 35:10 37:17 61:11 ,14,21 122:8 139:16 **different** 13:21 14:19 16:8 17:21 27:10 36:18 37:5 37:7 39:7 ,8,8 46:21 57:22 61:16 75:13 ,21 76:11 81:5 88:3 95:17 96:4 99:21 107:21 111:13 ,17 ,22 114:10 115:21 117:11 123:14 124:6 125:14,16 128:12,14 138:11 144:18 ,20 145:22 149:18 150:18 153:9 154:21 155:9 156:4 157:5 158:1 ,18,20 162:6 169:21 ,21 170:16 170:18 172:3 ,15 172:20 177:14,22 183:21 184:3 ,16 184:22 189:12 191:20 194:12 195:7 ,7 196:7 205:15 207:18 210:2,13 211:6

215:15 ,17 223:1 224:13 ,18,20 237:5 ,7 242:22 243:1 254:3 ,11 257:15 259:13 286:16 295:7 297:22 309:8 325:1 331:18 334:10 **differential** 297:22 **differentiates** 184:11 **differently** 156:19 176:15 194:12 278:21 **difficult** 12:11 38:5 38:10 56:9 78:15 178:6 184:21 218:21 286:18 330:2 **difficulties** 16:16 **difficulty** 106:3 265:13 **digging** 125:13 **diligence** 159:3 **diligences** 243:2 **diligently** 75:5 287:12 **diminish** 60:17 **dioxide** 313:1 321:2 321:10 **Dircks** 5:14,14 23:7 23:8 26:4,4 184:1 184:1 ,6 214:19 215:3 ,7 269:10 291:3 **direct** 19:6 44:5 62:1 95:20 96:5 96:14,22 118:10 172:14 177:20,20 177:21 184:10 219:19 220:5 230:18 277:14 279:5 323:21 324:2 330:2 **directed** 15:18 79:20 **direction** 162:21 218:9 291:6 293:9 **directions** 75:5 **directly** 36:2 74:16 77:8 104:8 120:8 190:8 230:19 300:16 322:12 **directs** 73:17Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 348 **dis-benefit** 136:14 **disagree** 43:10 **disagreement** 239:15 **disallow** 24:22 292:10 **disallowing** 135:8 **discharging** 29:9 **Dischner** 2:8 8:1 ,1 **disconnect** 138:14 **DISCONNECTED** 270:17 **discount** 256:5 ,10 256:11 ,15 ,16,17 256:20 273:20 274:14 275:7 ,8 **discounted** 241:1 273:10 274:12 279:9 332:7 ,20 **discourage** 316:11 **discouraged** 315:3 **discourages** 55:6,21 **discouraging** 58:22 **discrepancy** 235:18 **discretionary** 267:9 **discuss** 14:5 15:10 20:6 60:13 125:20 279:1 282:1 **discussed** 121:9,18 125:19 178:16 241:6,7 280:13 284:20 299:17 301:11 308:10 310:4 331:21 **discussing** 65:9 97:10 136:5 156:7 278:15 307:15 **discussion** 20:12 22:9,14 83:22 93:18 101:5 ,7 113:6,7 124:18 222:12 301:19 306:6 **discussions** 61:13 242:16 **disjunctions** 76:19 **disposal** 327:13 **disproportionate** 38:8 270:5 **disproportionately** 42:6 **distance** 54:6 **distant** 326:3 **distinct** 308:4 **distinction** 145:20 **distinguish** 150:3 ,6 202:4

**distinguishes** 149:4 **distinguishing** 121:12 150:13 **distribute** 87:2 169:10,12 184:18 **distributed** 215:1 **distributing** 26:18 **distribution** 23:15 34:18 44:10,13 ,14 44:21 115:19 154:21 155:18 156:2,3 158:18 164:1 ,3 ,10,17 165:21 166:8 171:2 172:3 173:4 177:5 ,16 178:14 181:5 ,7 ,11 ,18 182:5 ,6,9 184:10 184:17 187:10 192:6 215:10 225:15 226:5 ,14 227:6 256:12,16 257:13 261:10,15 273:18 274:1 275:5 **distributions** 226:8 226:10 228:22 256:1 275:16 **distributor** 161:19 161:21 170:7 177:10 181:14 190:18 **distributors** 21:5 31:19 45:3 61:8 167:6,14,15 ,21 168:5 ,6 169:11 ,19 170:14 173:3 307:13 **District** 56:12 **diversity** 187:5 **divided** 156:19,20 **division** 123:14 251:10 **divulge** 152:9 **divulging** 152:13 **Dixon** 170:10 **docket** 103:22 297:4 **document** 21:12 65:19 123:19 187:4 199:14 205:7 226:1 231:16 257:5 303:10 322:1 ,21 **documentation** 13:14 21:18 25:18 260:9

**documented** 70:22 239:4 **documents** 239:5 **Doe** 2:3 ,4 6:12,14 11:2,14 12:11 ,13 13:19,20 14:6,15 14:20 15:1 ,11 16:5 ,19 17:8 ,12 17:16,16,20 18:2 20:7 21:7 ,14,19 21:21 22:1 ,7 ,10 22:13 ,20 25:17 27:3 31:10,22 32:4 35:16 36:17 37:4,6,11 ,15 38:2 38:16 39:11 ,13 ,17 41:7 ,11 42:2,5 ,15 42:17 ,21 43:7 ,14 44:8 ,18 45:9,10 45:13 46:2,6,8 47:11 48:7 49:10 49:10,12,14,19 50:2,13 51:12,15 52:8 ,11 ,17 ,18 53:2,22 54:6,19 55:19 56:19,21 57:6 63:22 64:10 64:16 65:3 ,6 68:3 68:6,7 ,16,21 69:8 69:14 73:17 75:12 80:3 81:10 85:15 89:16 91:14 93:7 95:9,13 ,21 96:3 98:16 99:2,4,10 99:21 100:10,18 103:3 ,5 ,20 104:11 104:14 105:1 ,14 106:17 109:13 ,20 111:5 112:21 113:3 ,8,15 115:12 116:9 119:5 ,15 122:6 128:13 129:4 132:13 133:2 142:22 154:18 159:6 163:22 164:2,14 166:11 169:6 173:6 174:18 190:5 196:14 208:12 219:21 220:8 225:17 242:1 248:14 253:12,17 256:7 256:10,13 261:14 262:9,13 ,15 ,17 263:8 266:6,10,14

266:18 268:13 276:22 277:7 279:8 286:11 288:10,21 289:1 294:9 300:6,8 305:5 313:2 325:13 332:19 336:15 **DOE's** 12:17 ,21 13:15 16:13 17:3 24:3 32:3 35:5 ,13 36:14 37:18 39:2 41:22 42:1 43:19 43:22 45:17 46:16 46:16 47:6,14 49:1 ,16 50:10 51:1 ,5 ,7 52:20 54:15 55:11 57:17 58:12,16 75:20 113:3 123:16 332:7 **doing** 40:6 69:3 90:7 155:16 181:21 189:16 239:11 289:4 299:10 309:3 310:12 313:15 331:10 333:16 **dollar** 175:13 ,16,17 175:19,22 176:1 ,2 176:3 252:10,16 **dollars** 175:17 176:7 ,7 274:13 ,13 274:15 283:13 284:10,12 296:6 299:18 323:21 324:2 **domestic** 63:13 279:5 287:2 300:9 **dominant** 159:12 **don'** 306:21 **Donuts** 102:2 163:2 163:3 **door** 106:8 232:6 **dots** 171:17 **double** 54:4 227:1 249:1 **doubled** 259:1 310:18 **doubt** 147:14 214:10 **Doug** 2:2 4:9 11:1 64:2 73:15 98:16 **downstream** 114:3 158:12 **dozen** 30:8

**draft** 230:6 324:9 **dramatic** 59:9 **dramatically** 18:9 61:16 62:14 315:8 315:8 **drastic** 298:10 **draw** 214:4 244:17 **drilling** 139:8 **drive** 42:4 308:21 309:3 **driver** 18:7 296:12 296:17 **drivers** 296:2 **driving** 18:19 140:22 **drop** 199:1 247:8 281:15 **dropping** 57:11 **drops** 199:3 **drug** 86:12 **dual** 149:11 **due** 21:10 32:14 72:17 101:18 159:3 230:22 266:7 ,19 270:6 296:15 334:19 **Dunkin** 102:2 163:2 163:3 **duty** 331:3 **dwell** 265:17 **dwelling** 229:20 **dwellings** 53:20 **dynamics** 281:18 **E E**  2:19 3:9 4:1 ,1 **earlier** 102:16,22 104:14 112:22 117:19 118:6,6 121:8 ,10 125:11 125:19 129:8 164:9 184:14 206:19 215:10,16 229:22 241:7 280:13 284:13 292:7 296:9,13 301:22 **early** 8:4 210:12 **Earth** 330:21 **Earthjustice** 2:6 7:22 **ease** 18:3 210:20 236:9 311:18 **easier** 27:14 48:10 137:20 195:9Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 349 318:13 329:3 331:6 **easily** 19:16 308:14 308:19 **east** 170:11 **easy** 28:3 43:19 50:7 131:7 137:4 211:9 236:12 237:1 290:1 328:21 **ecological** 318:18 **economic** 13:2 14:11 15:8 ,13 19:14 31:9 114:3 173:20 239:22 245:20 265:1 289:17 326:6 327:8 **economically** 50:14 73:20 289:19 **economy** 264:9 278:10 **Edison** 3:12 6:9 65:13 92:17 121:20 187:2 204:8 225:21 231:12 256:19 **edition** 43:20 **educate** 213:21 **educating** 40:5 **education** 19:13 277:13 **EEI** 205:6 224:4 227:4,12 248:22 249:7 251:16,22 268:2,16 **effect** 25:2 29:13 37:16 42:1 76:10 112:2 131:19 146:8 156:11 201:19 236:10,13 258:9 283:10,17 283:20 304:15 332:21 **effective** 50:21 99:11 147:2 247:11 ,12 248:6 256:10 **effectively** 205:14 205:20 **effects** 136:5 186:16 225:8 ,9 229:7 258:11 279:4,18 318:17 ,17 ,19 **efficiencies** 67:10 156:3 **efficiency** 12:10

15:19 16:6 58:19 98:20 99:14 100:22 142:17 ,19 163:22 175:4,8,11 175:21 224:2 225:18 257:13 ,15 277:5 288:10 **efficient** 16:18 ,21 17:1 ,6 51:8 ,16 58:19 87:3 97:20 98:6 155:7 176:6 **effort** 103:12 **efforts** 23:21 50:12 86:21 103:18 293:14 **EI** 288:14 333:4,11 333:18 ,19 **EIA** 249:5 ,12,13 252:1 ,4,22 **EIA's** 251:9 **EIS** 28:2,5 ,13 ,18,20 29:3 ,7 ,10,15 30:4 **EISA** 64:19 **either** 52:12 53:10 80:8 ,9 86:16 96:21 98:20 99:2 180:8 183:11 186:5 189:16 190:1 196:18 217:17 222:17 244:11 245:17 253:13 263:19 306:11 315:11 328:16 333:7 **elasticity** 262:10 266:6 267:2,10 270:7 ,8 296:13 **electric** 3:12 6:10 33:12 36:8 65:14 92:18 121:21 187:3 204:8 225:22 231:2,13 256:20 264:22 267:19 308:17 314:17 332:14,16 **electrical** 40:13 ,14 40:17 71:7 ,15 138:7 149:7 186:9 187:20,22 188:4,7 189:1 231:4 243:20 250:20 251:2 **electrician** 40:11 **electricity** 30:6 33:20 149:9 189:3 189:11 ,16 230:18

248:18 251:13 ,22 252:2,6,9,11 273:16 327:2 333:7 336:4 **electromagnet** 148:8 **electronic** 28:1 29:18 30:11 31:10 38:17 61:14,15 ,19 62:3 87:3 118:1 119:18 120:1 ,5 ,8 120:13 125:19,21 127:22 128:3 133:14,20 134:7 134:13 136:13 138:5 ,13 139:12 139:17 ,18 142:11 143:9,17 246:11 254:4 270:10 281:12,22 282:3 ,6 285:13 289:12,14 298:17 301:8 308:12 309:2,6,11 311:9,12,15 329:18 334:10 **element** 149:6,7 **eliminate** 21:21 25:9 126:19 130:7 245:10 292:2 **eliminated** 62:13 259:20 270:4 **eliminates** 97:4 130:12 **eliminating** 19:4 24:15 30:22 58:22 292:22 300:20 301:13 **elimination** 31:4 **Elszasz** 3:3 7:3 ,3 116:21 ,22 119:16 120:10,20 121:3 ,5 122:7 ,14,19 124:15 125:9 127:8 ,16 128:5 ,8 128:18 129:3 134:22 135:3 139:8 140:15 ,17 141:19,22 142:3 ,7 143:5 ,10,12,20,22 144:19 146:2,13 151:15 ,18 152:17 157:17 159:9,16 160:12,18 161:20 161:22 162:7 206:15 ,15 207:5 207:10

**emails** 46:3 **embedded** 162:10 **emergency** 33:11 71:3 **emission** 120:13 126:14 312:22 313:3 **emissions** 297:18 312:14,20 313:4 315:6 317:3 **emits** 320:21 **emitted** 317:8 ,12 319:4,20 320:2,11 320:16 321:2 **empathy** 32:4 **emphasis** 78:20 80:15 **emphasize** 14:15 15:12 **emphasizes** 96:9 **Empire** 3:17 6:7 **employ** 23:14 63:12 148:2 **employee** 34:13 **employees** 31:13 300:12 306:19 **employing** 149:21 **employment** 9:4 34:2 278:10 279:6 **enable** 281:2 **enables** 46:20 **enchilada** 311:11 **enclosure** 28:10 37:14 121:15 140:6 **encompassing** 104:12 **encourage** 10:14 315:11 316:11 331:9 **endorsed** 56:6 **ends** 11:17 101:22 **energies** 188:9 **energy** 1:1 ,5 2:1 ,19 4:5 ,8 8:18 9:11 10:4 11:5 13:5 15:20,21 16:6 19:7 22:4,22 24:3 24:7 ,20 25:5 ,14 35:7 37:1 40:18 40:20,22 41:8 46:16 50:14 51:1 51:5 52:6,19,21 53:1 ,9 54:17 57:16 58:17 64:7 64:13 ,17 ,20,22

65:10,17 67:6 68:8 72:1 73:19 76:4 84:17 89:21 98:17 ,21 99:1 ,7 99:19 101:4 122:9 122:10 130:19 137:18 ,18 142:16 142:21 143:13 155:1 ,1 159:2 163:15 173:21 179:5 ,21 185:18 185:20,21 186:4 186:17 188:3 ,10 188:14,17 193:5 196:13 ,16 199:17 203:17 ,22 215:11 221:13 223:19 225:11 ,11 228:3 ,7 229:19 230:2,15 230:17 ,18,21 241:2 248:11 ,15 248:17 ,19,20 249:4 251:6,8,12 255:5 262:8 272:9 272:13 ,14,22 273:2,14,16 274:10,11 276:22 277:5 288:10 293:4 312:9,21 313:3 ,7 322:4,6 330:6 331:14 **energy's** 186:1 **engaged** 21:3 **engineering** 8:17 117:3 135:4,5 ,14 138:2 139:9 140:18 ,20 155:4,5 157:10 159:19 160:19 186:7 204:2 205:5 206:12 223:21 255:14 257:22 280:17 **English** 77:18 80:6 82:22 83:4,6 **enjoy** 220:19 221:9 290:12 334:21 **enjoying** 221:1 **enormous** 154:5 **ensure** 253:11 **entail** 309:7 **entails** 284:21 **enterprise** 31:22 **entire** 28:10 38:22 43:1 105:3 166:13Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 350 233:10 255:12 260:21 **entirely** 24:16 124:4 292:2 329:14 **entities** 43:1 ,18 44:10 66:14 302:20 307:17 **entity** 45:22 182:13 182:15 ,17 **environment** 2:20 23:20 37:13 55:12 56:2 62:9 139:1 209:9,14 214:21 **environmental** 9:3 55:13 ,20 56:3 ,4,6 56:17 ,22 57:1 ,4,7 60:8 ,10,12,14 295:11 312:1 315:16 318:18 331:17 ,18 **EPA** 56:6 316:3 ,17 319:14 **EPA's** 321:19 **EPCA** 13:22 35:15 40:22 64:7 73:17 73:21 **EPCA's** 24:5 36:21 36:22 **equal** 253:15 ,21 **equation** 186:5 187:15 189:10 196:5 229:6 **equations** 219:11 225:10 240:6,8 **equipment** 21:4,6 95:20 96:5 ,22 181:7 219:19,19 220:5 222:12,19 284:18 285:1 **equipped** 18:13 41:3 ,4 **equity** 256:9 **equivalency** 167:20 **equivalent** 336:4 **Eric** 6:12 85:15 88:20 89:14,16 92:15 112:22 **erroneous** 67:5 **error** 69:1 123:19 **errors** 12:20 **especially** 10:17 40:5 66:11 ,20 75:1 232:3 238:20 292:13 295:1 **essential** 25:11 293:2 **essentially** 76:1

84:12 125:17 151:21 157:2 160:21 227:22 244:8 247:16 272:11 273:15 289:22 **establish** 99:2 198:9 **established** 64:7 96:10 142:18 151:3 226:14 **establishing** 64:20 **estimate** 40:16 41:18 52:19 122:21 126:9 144:10 262:11 272:8 280:4 285:9 **estimated** 49:11 ,12 156:18 161:5 246:5 284:8 295:16 309:9 **estimates** 38:2 49:14,17 ,19 50:10 52:11 123:1 126:4 221:14 283:21 284:3 **estimating** 52:21 124:9 **et** 143:4 166:6 273:18 **ethyl** 319:8 **Europe** 303:21 **European** 304:9 **evaluate** 11:5 57:6 221:4 277:2 278:21 301:6 **evaluation** 240:1 **evening** 19:22 33:17 **event** 43:11 46:13 71:8 137:7 **events** 326:20 335:16 **everybody** 63:3 82:22 83:4 91:20 102:6 152:12 **everybody's** 86:21 **everyone's** 317:7 **Everything's** 199:2 **evidence** 211:15 217:5 ,9,19 225:5 225:6 **evidenced** 49:16 **evince** 32:4 **evolution** 153:17 **evolved** 218:16 276:12 **evolving** 131:11

247:5 288:9,20 **exact** 258:22 329:18 330:18 **exactly** 78:21 100:22 101:1 111:1 114:6 185:4 271:22 275:13 **exaggerated** 125:6 **examine** 36:21 280:9 **examining** 41:17 56:16 **example** 47:22 56:7 124:8 200:5 230:4 330:7 **examples** 75:21 78:8 79:22 81:15 82:3 92:8 94:7 **exceeds** 57:12 **excellent** 33:10 **exception** 104:5 127:10 **excess** 46:17 312:12 **exchange** 57:16 112:6 **exciting** 73:9 **exclude** 307:13 **excluded** 34:4 **exclusive** 169:12 **exclusively** 180:1 **excuse** 45:14 85:11 88:11 103:13 134:17 146:10 191:1 287:19 307:7 321:6 330:15 **executive** 16:14 21:9 **exhaustive** 81:18 ,19 **exist** 16:13 61:22 173:22 182:7 211:7 214:3 299:11 **existence** 17:8 ,11 **existing** 37:9 42:9 42:11 49:8 121:11 180:17 233:3 263:1 308:7 ,19 315:4 **exists** 62:2 97:1 147:16 327:9 **expand** 229:4 **expanding** 41:12 126:22 **expect** 112:3 244:19 319:3

**expectations** 102:7 **expected** 133:18 262:7 296:14 **expects** 287:9 **expedition** 86:20 **expense** 58:3 **expenses** 175:6,7 241:1 256:7 282:20,21 **expensive** 22:11 38:5 40:10 49:2 52:16 57:3 58:8 147:18 277:15 281:13 309:21 326:11 **experience** 12:10 37:4 38:14 40:16 47:1 52:9 217:20 247:21 254:20,22 335:21 **experienced** 298:12 **experiences** 333:3 **expertise** 171:16 **experts** 56:18 **explain** 12:19 175:13 239:16 314:2 **explained** 111:15 119:5 ,5 136:13 141:20 187:15 239:8 **explains** 258:9 **explanation** 89:1 ,11 188:6 **explicitly** 167:13 **expo** 236:20,21 **express** 287:20 **expressed** 281:14 281:19 300:19 309:1 **expressly** 109:19 **extended** 25:20 71:9 72:2 221:8 293:16 **extension** 11:18 ,20 13:15 308:21 336:12,14,17 **extensive** 28:14 30:14 31:3 56:16 151:20 **extent** 22:1 34:22 73:4,18 296:14 **external** 150:9 332:14 333:19 336:4 **extinguish** 40:1 50:3 72:2

**extinguished** 50:10 **extinguishes** 130:4 **extinguishing** 50:5 **extra** 41:7 50:22 205:21 232:14 238:11 **extraction** 273:17 331:16 **extrapolated** 251:10 **extreme** 133:18 335:15 **extremely** 112:18 198:5 294:12 **extremes** 92:13 **F face**  18:9 37:17 284:4 301:8 **faced** 49:5 298:9 **facilitate** 13:11 ,18 25:19 **facilities** 285:5 **facility** 34:14 63:11 63:13 **facing** 279:7 **fact** 12:13 16:22 39:10 51:6 53:22 68:3 ,20 69:1 ,8 70:9 71:9 72:13 76:8 78:19 79:3 81:11 91:2 96:3 96:19 98:7 100:10 119:4,9 144:15 150:3 205:16 216:20 217:1 220:16 221:21 222:4,10,18 228:6 229:19 309:20 321:9 332:8 **factor** 18:4 72:4 128:16 161:1 187:5 242:7 ,8 250:20 **factored** 142:10 143:3 **factors** 27:10 54:17 73:18 ,21 74:8 210:20 218:13 223:22 248:16,16 248:19,20 249:5 273:14,21 279:5 282:9 309:19 313:3 **factory** 37:10 38:18 38:20 39:1 ,6Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 351 53:21 105:15 129:16 **Fahrenheit** 229:16 **fail** 255:1 **failed** 14:20 18:2 253:16 **failing** 247:17 ,21 **failure** 254:8 ,18 277:21 **failures** 16:20 **fair** 229:6 304:22 **fairly** 10:10 12:2 111:19 132:17 137:15 259:18 292:3 **fall** 42:6 49:7 201:8 309:17 **falling** 41:20 **false** 304:18 **familiar** 70:3 122:1 **family** 19:20 26:16 31:18 53:17 54:5 54:9 200:11 ,17 ,21 266:1 268:9,12 269:1 **far** 43:19 47:21 49:3 49:20 50:20 55:8 55:12 58:10 66:18 75:21 95:17 124:15 ,19 125:21 134:12 139:21 168:7 189:6 206:11 259:9 298:21 299:2,7 312:1 **fashion** 230:1 317:3 317:4 **fast** 41:20 66:18 170:2 234:16 292:6 **favoring** 56:6 **feasible** 289:19 **feature** 29:20 121:12 149:12 217:15 **features** 18:13 60:21 121:9 **fed** 114:3 251:11 **federal** 19:3 65:5 67:16 68:4,12 69:19 96:18 263:7 315:14 **fee** 183:16 191:4,16 193:8 285:22 **feedback** 57:19 95:8 108:16 111:1 116:11 119:22

152:3 171:1 242:14 280:7 286:3 ,4 292:1 310:3 **feel** 11:9 63:2,17 81:16 103:5 114:10 271:14 275:10 286:4 288:6 292:12 304:8 335:4 **fees** 191:13 ,14 **feet** 322:10 **Feinstein** 2:12 7:16 7:16 105:12,12,19 192:17 193:13 ,17 **Feinstsein** 192:17 **fell** 14:18 125:16 **felt** 48:22 82:3 **ferry** 175:6 **fewer** 259:9 290:19 300:12 **field** 186:13 208:14 209:8 225:16 226:5 ,6 **fifth** 294:14 **figure** 54:2 75:9 82:17 86:22 153:12 185:3 203:12 228:10 243:3 265:5 296:5 **figured** 154:12 166:5 ,6 **figures** 180:9 212:18 296:8 **filings** 279:22 **fill** 211:17 ,18 **filling** 55:3 **final** 13:8 21:12 34:4 61:2 64:20 66:3 68:6 69:4,5 110:5 160:1 186:15 194:14,19 225:7 280:6 293:8 303:13 306:8 335:7 **finalize** 110:2 113:15 280:8 **finalized** 72:14,19 **finalizing** 82:1 **finally** 20:5 40:6 181:8 196:20 225:17 230:14 231:6 257:12 266:18 279:4 282:2 309:1 **finances** 256:14

**financial** 19:6 34:2 39:21 41:15 42:5 58:14 166:11 277:14 279:14 280:4,14 281:1 **find** 43:21 57:11 140:20 159:13 172:13 174:5 178:1 198:3 207:18 214:2 306:17 322:21 ,22 **finding** 205:8 **fine** 170:19 234:12 315:19 316:21 317:12,14 323:5 333:10,10 **finish** 98:10 110:6 305:11 ,12,18,19 324:13 **finished** 112:5 **fire** 27:7 28:17 ,18 30:5 33:6 49:8 51:18 52:1 58:9 79:4 84:1 106:12 110:20 314:9,10 322:20 324:7 ,8,9 325:6,12 331:6 **firebox** 30:2 **fired** 35:21 74:13 76:20 77:6,12,20 96:12 117:10 122:22 208:13 216:19 **fireplace** 27:12 28:12 29:5 32:21 32:22 35:22 37:10 38:13 ,18 39:6 40:13 48:11 ,12,12 51:10 55:10 58:12 61:16,19 62:1 ,1 ,9 67:8 74:14 76:21 77:2 82:21 83:1 ,6 85:13 ,14 88:1 104:2 137:21 138:12 145:17 146:14 147:2,18 150:20 157:12 158:15 167:5 ,21 169:8 ,18 170:6,14 172:13 196:18 198:9 200:6,6 201:14,19 202:3 ,6 202:8 ,9 205:11 ,17 215:18 216:22 226:18 229:17 230:5 232:5

246:16,16 250:7 251:3 255:7 264:3 265:8 267:8 ,18 303:15 314:5 ,9,13 315:3 ,5 317:3 ,5 ,9 317:19 321:13 322:9,17 324:15 331:3 333:4 334:8 334:8 ,9,9 **fireplaces** 17:15 ,18 23:12 27:21 28:10 30:21 31:2 34:22 36:6,6,7 ,8,8 38:21 39:1 42:9,11 44:7 51:11 ,14,16,17 52:3 53:21 55:5 56:14 59:1 ,7 67:8 82:21 83:2,2 94:8 94:9,9 98:2,3 104:3 105:16 106:6 112:11 ,18 114:13 ,15 118:9 118:12 121:12 123:21 ,22 124:3 133:21 140:1 ,5 142:9 144:13 147:14 151:4 169:11 ,12,15 172:11 ,12 180:1 190:11 197:8 ,15 197:17 ,18 199:4 199:19,21 200:14 200:16,19,22 201:1 ,15 202:5 ,10 202:17 207:17 208:1 209:3 210:9 213:11 217:9,10 217:14,15 221:2 224:15 ,19 230:4 232:22 233:1 ,4 262:22 263:22 264:1 ,2,21 265:19 268:21 269:14,16 272:4 290:10 292:6 308:8 ,19 309:16 314:7 ,12 315:7 ,13 ,13 317:5 322:11 323:3 ,3 ,12 323:14 324:1 325:2 327:19 328:12 **fires** 49:9 55:7 ,16 56:1 58:3 323:2,8 323:9,10,15 ,18,20 323:22 **firm** 307:3

**first** 14:6 15:18 24:2 24:11 26:3 35:17 40:20 62:22 74:17 76:6 84:19 85:3 91:11 ,14 99:13 103:18 ,19 112:20 118:5 ,8 137:11 141:17 144:4 175:19,22 176:1 196:3 ,9,11 ,17 198:16,20 208:5 208:11 ,21 212:18 225:10 227:11 228:2,2 229:5 230:18 240:13 242:2 264:5 279:20 280:20 281:10 282:15 286:10 291:5 300:6 329:13 330:13 334:20,20 335:5 ,19,20 **fishing** 86:19 **fit** 59:18 90:2 91:16 111:10 157:13 ,14 229:1 247:10 **fits** 27:13 39:12 91:17 92:3 178:5 178:6 **five** 17:19 26:16 54:8 128:11 ,13 133:9 157:2 176:7 194:14 218:20 219:4 289:13 335:7 **Fixed** 175:7 **flame** 29:19 30:7 ,12 35:22 46:19,22 47:10,20 48:1 74:15 76:21 77:4 77:7 ,13 ,17 ,19,19 77:21 78:22 83:9 86:15 90:19,20,21 93:19 107:12,14 107:15 ,16 110:16 110:17 111:11 ,14 112:2 137:3 ,8 138:7 ,14,18 222:14 **flapping** 101:7 **flashlight** 18:7 211:1 237:4 **flat** 252:3 **flavor** 238:4 **flaw** 222:7Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 352 **flexibility** 39:3 42:15 43:9,12 58:5 301:10 **flick** 331:4 **flip** 211:4 236:21 277:20 **flipside** 245:14 **floor** 9:8 28:12 102:1 162:21 163:4 237:22 **flow** 30:20 54:22 137:9 148:13 182:12 192:3 279:9,17 280:3 ,9 280:11 282:16 **flue** 51:22 52:4 62:6 196:20 **flue-less** 196:21 **flus** 33:5 **focus** 9:21 27:17 43:8 51:4 53:16 89:11 117:20 **focused** 72:1 89:2 125:12 135:18 284:17 285:14 303:12 **fold** 130:14 **folks** 8:5 86:21 102:12 286:4 290:11 298:19 **follow** 69:16 70:5 119:16 128:18 143:1 153:7 194:5 246:4 279:1 288:7 308:10 329:11 330:22 333:2 **followed** 215:8 **following** 8:9 9:2 10:17 24:1 41:15 52:1 73:18 75:5 99:12 157:19 207:19 268:18 **fondly** 279:10 **force** 47:6 52:17 248:5 **forced** 230:9 **forces** 47:12 **forcing** 47:3 49:1 **forecast** 262:6 **forecasted** 263:12 **forecasting** 253:4 **foreign** 63:9 70:1 286:14 302:14,15 303:3 304:16 306:13 ,18 **forever** 41:12 222:16

**forget** 200:16 255:6 288:1 **forgotten** 19:17 **form** 90:20 126:1 139:12 202:13 235:3 **formal** 293:6 **formaldehyde** 319:9 320:1 ,2 **formulate** 164:15 166:10 **formulated** 166:20 273:3 **formulates** 262:9 **Forrestal** 4:7 162:18 **forth** 153:14 207:7 291:8 316:15 335:12 **forum** 276:6 **forward** 20:11 81:22 82:11 103:10 104:10 105:2 107:3 108:5 111:4 114:18 118:5 136:2 164:17 234:16 287:1 ,21 ,22 **fossil** 330:17 **found** 44:1 ,5 99:22 103:22 119:10 120:12 125:21 126:1 135:21 139:11 140:2,11 146:3 ,6 150:20 155:10 209:7 221:6 262:13 277:9 317:6 320:15 ,20 **foundation** 103:3 **founded** 26:16 **four** 66:3 136:11 265:19 269:15 **fourth** 231:4 258:3 **fraction** 115:13 ,20 197:16 224:15 225:14 226:2 232:7 246:5 ,10,22 258:4 264:7 ,20 265:7 329:15 ,21 330:7 **framework** 9:10 65:18 66:6 214:15 **Frank** 3:15 6:3 67:20,21 68:10 70:6 72:12 78:12

90:15 95:15 ,16 118:19,21 ,22 120:3 127:17 ,18 132:6,7 144:1 ,3 145:3 147:5 187:13 ,14 188:12 188:20 216:15 217:3 221:15 ,16 226:6 227:19,20 293:20,21 332:2 333:2,14 **Frank's** 150:14 **frankly** 154:12 194:14 218:11 **free** 11:9 31:21 63:2 70:7 71:5 78:16 78:20 79:5 ,11 83:3 134:11 147:15 271:15 288:7 311:17 **free-standing** 48:11 314:11 **freestanding** 264:1 **frequency** 197:13 253:19 254:4 **frequently** 19:19 50:7 316:8 ,8 **friend** 67:22 **friendly** 18:10 71:19 **front** 27:8 123:13 125:8 213:2 216:7 281:18 **fruitful** 113:7 **frustrated** 73:4 **frustration** 95:12 **fuel** 20:22 22:11 35:22 37:9 57:13 74:14 76:21 77:2 186:8 199:10 206:21 230:16,20 230:22 273:1 ,14 274:11 315:7 ,7 323:2 326:8 327:7 327:12 328:5 ,11 330:1 331:13 **fueled** 21:22 22:3 ,5 22:9,17 ,20 24:17 264:21 ,21 **fuels** 330:17 **fulfill** 284:18 **full** 237:12 273:1 ,14 274:11 311:11 ,15 331:13 **fully** 33:3 42:3 51:22 52:4 333:5 333:8 **function** 16:11 70:18 107:21 110:15 131:3 137:6 139:5 149:14 164:12 195:2,2 217:13 244:14 245:4,19 **functional** 37:1 333:5 ,8 **functionality** 99:19 119:7 ,10,19 120:16 **functions** 29:7 120:2 191:12 194:22 **fundamental** 138:4 244:12 **fundamentally** 265:16 **furnace** 30:4 33:3 107:16,17 179:15 186:19 200:6,9 226:16,20 227:1 230:9,22 330:13 **furnaces** 75:17 93:21 94:14 169:19 **further** 24:2,9 28:22 29:3 96:9 108:3 108:10,12 113:8 125:14,21 139:9 159:10 195:8 280:7 285:17 286:4 291:12,17 **future** 11:5 17:19 25:10 54:7 123:17 124:6,20 260:18 263:13 265:3 ,6,9 265:13 ,16,22 292:22 294:19 314:15 **G G**  4:1 **gained** 336:10 **gaining** 307:4 **gaming** 96:16 **gaps** 15:2 **garage** 36:12 **gas** 2:9,22 3:9 5:11 5:13 ,17 6:6 17:15 20:18 21:5 22:3 23:11 26:15 ,17 ,18 26:22 27:5 ,8,10 27:13 ,15 28:2,9

28:10,10,15 ,19 29:13 ,15 ,21 30:9 30:17 ,21 31:3 ,8 32:8 ,10 33:10,15 34:4,12,21 35:3 ,8 35:10,12,14,21 36:10,10,11 ,12,19 37:6,8,11 ,13 ,13 37:17 38:2,2,8,9 38:11 ,12,21 ,22 39:3 ,4 40:4 41:4,8 41:9,12,15 ,18,19 42:6,8,11 ,19 43:2 43:4 44:12,21 46:17 47:2,4,13 47:15 ,18 48:2,6,9 48:17 ,20,22 49:3 49:6,11 50:1 ,6,17 50:18 51:1 ,8,14 51:15 52:3 ,8,10 53:10,13 ,21 54:22 55:4,4,7 ,8,11 ,12 55:16,20,22 56:7 56:14,17 57:2,5 ,8 57:9,11 ,12,13 ,14 57:18 ,20 58:10,15 58:16,18 59:2,10 61:13 ,15 ,17 ,19 62:1 69:10 70:7 71:4,5 74:13 76:10,20 77:6,12 77:20 78:1 ,17 79:5 ,11 80:22 83:3 ,5 ,11 90:17 90:18 91:5 93:2,6 93:9,19,19,22 94:1 ,12 96:12 98:4,5 105:16 106:6 109:4,9,22 117:10 118:16,19 118:19 120:9 121:7 ,7 ,10,10 122:22 124:1 ,1 ,2 124:9 126:14 127:11 ,12,20 130:8 133:13 134:10,14 137:5 ,7 137:9,12 138:15 138:18 140:2,7 ,8 140:11 143:18 145:18 ,18,19 146:5 ,6,7 ,11 ,14 148:13 150:22,22 151:1 159:14 188:1 ,5 196:18Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 353 197:7 200:5 ,5 ,6,9 200:15 202:17 ,17 204:13 ,14 205:12 205:13 ,15 208:13 213:11 215:18 ,19 216:19 230:4 242:22 245:10,12 245:19 247:8 248:18 250:8 251:13 252:14,18 253:3 263:20,22 264:1 ,13 ,21 267:6 267:19 270:6,9 278:7 279:2 289:12,17 ,21 290:6,13 298:18 299:21 301:19 303:15 ,15 307:22 308:1 ,3 ,14 309:3 309:8 ,12,12,14,18 309:22 310:8 311:6,10,13 ,14 314:4,4,8,10,12 314:13 ,17 ,18,19 314:22 315:1 ,3 ,9 315:13 316:11 ,13 317:4,10,13 318:3 318:5 320:3 ,17 321:6,8,11 ,12,14 321:17 322:3 323:3 ,13 324:1 325:1 ,18 326:1 ,3 326:7 328:12,14 328:16,17 ,18,20 328:21 329:2,6,6 329:7 ,10 330:9,13 331:3 ,16 332:1 334:8 ,9,18,19,20 335:1 **gaslogs.com** 191:5 **gateway** 86:12 **gather** 45:13 280:2 **gathering** 237:17 **geek** 66:19 67:22 **general** 6:12 9:10 83:9 92:7 105:17 111:20 139:18 164:8 166:22 173:13 181:20 217:5 ,16 223:17 224:19 264:9 279:19 282:20 **generally** 81:20 85:19 104:11 105:2 107:3 ,9 117:14 125:15 149:4 169:8 180:7

180:9 183:17 ,20 327:10 **generation** 26:16 **generator** 138:6,17 **generic** 111:19 **gentleman** 26:8 45:5 212:11 **gentlemen** 184:8 **gentlemen's** 269:11 **geographic** 248:13 **geographical** 251:8 **getting** 10:1 97:10 100:15 103:14,15 154:19 180:3 ,18 232:8 325:15 332:4 **give** 4:17 19:8 27:3 74:10 95:10,11 103:2 117:5 158:12 174:12 184:19 243:3 250:13 276:3 290:1 **given** 40:18 54:12 62:16 94:7 105:9 117:20 238:3 287:11 291:22 294:11 336:18 **gives** 178:12,17 179:14,22 258:1 ,4 273:2,8,11 321:21 **giving** 47:2 216:1 294:2 **glad** 4:3 ,15 10:3 **glass** 33:2 232:6 **glitches** 10:12 **Glow** 23:13 **go** 11:10,11 ,16 17:22 42:9 53:12 59:11 62:18 64:3 66:12 72:7 74:6,8 75:15 78:6 79:22 82:14 96:20 98:11 102:15 ,18 103:4 103:10,16 105:10 108:10,18 109:2 111:4 121:5 124:20 125:10,22 140:15 ,18 145:15 151:8 152:7 153:7 153:10 157:21 158:8 159:18 160:2,15 162:19 164:17 168:7 169:5 172:18 173:6 177:1 ,16,18

177:19,20,20 180:9 184:7 185:9 185:10 190:6,20 191:5 ,17 192:1 193:1 ,19 201:9 202:21 208:11 214:1 215:12 226:13 227:19 228:7 ,14 232:13 235:22 238:15 239:1 244:6 248:12 253:9 254:15 258:7 260:15 261:18 ,19 262:4 263:2 266:8 268:3 270:10,13 272:1 274:2 288:6 288:7 289:9 296:19 297:17 298:16,22 299:9 299:13 305:19 310:22 311:3 ,8 324:14 327:14 331:10 333:15 335:20 **goes** 96:19 122:15 139:4 299:3 **going** 4:11 8:13 53:15 61:4 62:20 62:22 63:3 ,18 66:17 67:22 72:1 74:1 ,6,12 79:15 79:17 81:22 82:7 82:11 86:2 91:8 91:13 96:11 97:3 98:11 101:10 102:10,11 ,12,15 103:15 104:10 105:2 108:5 109:10 112:16,16 113:18 ,19,21 114:5 ,12 115:3 ,20 116:19 118:3 ,5 119:1 125:10 128:7 131:16,21 135:1 136:2,22 141:12 144:11 145:7 ,15 151:10 153:11 155:17 ,18 156:2 157:21 158:13 ,19 159:19 159:22 160:2 162:12 163:9,11 163:14,15 167:19 174:15 180:8 ,16 180:17 181:19

186:2 187:11 188:7 ,17 189:21 195:7 ,17 196:10 196:12,12 203:13 208:11 209:20,21 210:15 211:2,10 212:10 213:19 218:1 222:22 223:2,4 224:17 ,20 224:21 228:4,7 ,10 232:3 ,4 235:14 237:4 239:1 243:4 245:18 247:2 248:9 252:10 260:1 ,15 261:18 261:22 264:3 267:12 268:5 ,6,17 268:19 272:6 275:3 286:9,13 287:19 288:5 ,21 289:16 291:6 293:22 295:12 296:19 297:15 298:11 299:1 ,22 304:22 306:7 307:10 310:8 311:20 313:22 314:21 315:2 318:1 ,3 ,4,6 328:16,17 ,18 330:4 331:5 332:3 332:4 333:15 **Goldman** 2:14 5:5 ,5 12:5 ,6 85:3 ,22 196:1 ,1 ,5 301:21 301:21 302:11 ,17 303:8 ,21 304:3 ,9 305:10,13 ,16 306:4 **good** 4:3 ,13 ,15 12:6 20:15 23:7 26:9 26:13 73:22 82:22 83:4 101:15 103:3 116:21 133:1 162:14 163:6 177:13 210:11 276:11 288:13 289:4 291:7 298:15 321:21 323:16 **goodness** 315:17 **Gotcha** 177:11 288:4 **gotten** 126:3 141:5 159:10 246:1 **govern** 183:20

**governed** 138:10 **government** 277:6 279:10 **grab** 261:18 **granted** 64:10 102:17 **graphic** 240:17 **graphically** 136:8 **graphics** 272:20 **gravely** 125:4 **great** 57:20 64:5 94:9 213:21 236:19 247:7 ,9 259:10 287:4 335:12 **greater** 28:5 ,7 30:19 31:15 32:8 49:20 58:17 162:12 230:3 235:15 306:18 **greatest** 73:18 **greatly** 31:8 **greenhouse** 126:14 321:12,17 322:3 **Greg** 6:17 167:9,10 184:13 202:13 312:18 **Gregory** 3:18 **grid** 129:9 **grill** 90:17 91:5 204:13 ,13 ,14 237:1 **grills** 3:10 5:17 26:15 ,18 83:12 90:18 **GRIM** 279:11 **gross** 283:3 ,6 **grossly** 125:6 **ground** 102:1 107:8 137:11 155:14 162:15 ,20 163:4 291:21 307:5 322:9,10 **grounding** 243:21 **group** 99:21 118:18 142:12 150:19 184:2 217:10 256:17 **grouped** 123:21 **groups** 56:4 118:3 ,5 118:6,8,11 ,18 121:6,13 126:5 139:14 140:12,21 140:22 141:7 256:12Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 354 **growing** 48:15 50:16 192:21 233:11 **growth** 270:11 **guess** 60:8 66:8 77:19 80:9,14 81:2 84:9 102:11 120:2,14 121:16 122:8 ,9 130:13 140:9 141:9 152:6 153:4 157:17 174:1 194:11 ,13 202:7 208:21 222:18 231:14 236:14 247:4 276:2 286:22 288:14 301:22 302:1 326:12 333:5 **guessed** 77:14 80:12 88:7 **guidance** 184:20 185:3 ,7 **guide** 280:2 **guidelines** 251:11 **guy** 90:12 181:1 191:3 ,8 290:13 325:6,11 **guys** 103:20 163:16 185:4 191:8 236:4 236:19 293:12 297:8 298:12,14 298:19 299:4,4,21 **H H**  2:14 5:18 7:18 34:10,11 165:4 **habit** 188:13 **half** 133:12 144:12 217:10,21 240:22 263:19 267:6 329:22 330:8 **hall** 101:22 **halls** 101:22 **hand** 10:7 61:3 62:16 64:9 134:3 137:20 138:16 322:18 ,18 **handed** 276:16 **handful** 129:13 304:13 **handheld** 211:5 **hands** 17:7 18:7 210:22 237:3 238:6 **Hang** 84:20 92:15 **HAP** 331:20

**happen** 183:10 211:3 **happened** 265:17 **happening** 48:17 ,20 **happens** 183:11 187:21 331:1 **happiness** 290:2,3 290:16 **happy** 152:9 157:20 171:1 ,8 185:7 210:2 237:6 239:7 290:6 **HAPS** 318:9,10,14 319:4 320:1 **hard** 10:4 133:17 154:4 170:2 205:22 206:6 259:16 286:20 306:17 **harder** 195:10 230:9 **HARDI** 167:5 170:6,11 **Harmon** 23:14 **harmonized** 67:9 **harms** 331:17 ,18 **Harry** 3:14 **hate** 328:10 **Hauck** 56:19 **hazard** 29:3 33:6 **hazardous** 318:9 **HBPA** 73:2 **HEA** 328:8 **head** 106:4 201:2 257:9 306:22 **headquartered** 23:9 **health** 34:3 56:4,11 56:16 58:1 313:16 313:22 314:1 315:18 317:17 318:1 ,17 **healthy** 56:10 **hear** 10:10 34:15 60:3 79:14 91:17 91:18 100:13 ,18 102:12 107:3 109:2 123:8 161:14,15 163:16 174:2 192:15 209:13 215:3 287:14 **heard** 64:1 74:10,19 282:9 288:8 314:20 336:12 **hearing** 98:13 184:2 185:1 215:8 216:17 289:1 318:5 **heart** 31:21 142:14 264:13 323:8 **hearth** 1:3 2:11 ,12 2:14 4:6 5:5 ,8,14 5:21 7:16 11:6 12:7 ,8,13 14:7 21:1 22:2,21 23:8 24:12 25:3 ,3 26:5 26:20 29:17 31:17 35:1 ,9,10,14,16 35:18 ,19,20 36:5 36:9 37:8 ,20,21 38:7 43:2,18,20 44:3 ,18 45:3 ,11 45:14,18 48:11 49:13 54:10 56:10 60:7 ,11 61:7 64:18 65:4,6,11 68:2,9,19 69:4 74:12 77:12 79:12 80:7 ,8 81:17 85:1 85:2,11 ,11 96:1 98:18 99:8 ,17 ,20 99:22 100:4 103:6 105:13 109:4 117:6,6,8,10,17 118:4 119:7 ,12 120:13 122:20,22 126:1 ,5 136:1 139:13 156:10,18 166:14,20 176:18 179:22 180:1 184:15 ,16 185:20 186:14 188:15 192:17 196:15 ,21 196:22 197:7 199:13 202:15 ,15 204:4,5 208:13 220:9,12 221:11 223:19 224:12 226:20 243:9 253:11 ,13 ,17 255:20 258:2,3 262:6,11 ,13 263:11 ,13 ,18 266:8 ,17 267:2 272:10,15 278:7 291:14 300:7 ,12 308:6,9 309:9,17 309:20 314:3 315:1 ,15 **hearths** 183:21 **heat** 23:13 28:21 29:2,8 33:12,13 36:16 38:19 51:20 57:21 ,21 62:8 71:3 ,3 112:1 ,3 121:16 140:6 186:19 201:14,18 201:22 202:2,3 220:18 221:9 222:18 ,21 225:8 225:14 226:2,2 228:6,8,14,19 229:20 231:1 ,3 232:7 ,18 323:13 323:15 330:7 ,12 330:12 332:16 **heated** 52:2 79:7 ,7 330:9 **heater** 88:2 98:1 107:19 110:11 ,12 110:14 200:9 228:3 ,12 248:2,2 **heaters** 17:22 26:19 36:12,12 67:9 69:9,13 ,14,15 75:17 ,18 77:17 80:1 81:2,5 83:19 87:2 88:8 93:21 104:6 106:7 ,15 110:20 111:9,16 111:18 123:4 160:5 169:20 197:19 267:3 **Heatilator** 23:13 **heating** 2:17 3:15 36:2 69:12 74:16 77:8 78:19,22 79:2 95:20 96:5 96:14,21 ,22 110:15 130:11 149:6 169:9,13 186:18 195:16 197:9,16 199:4,19 199:22 200:8 ,14 201:6 202:7 208:18 209:10 219:19 220:5 ,10 223:22 224:16 225:9,19 228:4,16 228:19 229:12,14 229:16 230:8 ,20 230:22 231:3 232:19 331:19 **heavier** 137:10 **heavily** 284:17 **heavy** 130:9 **heck** 299:22 **height** 27:8 29:19 30:12 47:20 **heights** 46:22 **Hello** 163:13 **help** 33:19 82:10 92:8 98:9 108:6 108:13 114:20 128:20 130:14 132:9 167:11 171:3 ,17 ,18 172:16,17 293:18 294:8 331:11 **helped** 203:13 279:16 **helpful** 60:15 62:21 74:22 78:8 81:13 82:5 ,8 101:10 104:14,21 106:2 108:9,19 111:2 130:20 132:13 134:3 ,22 250:15 291:1 293:12 326:17 **helps** 106:21 248:7 **hemicellulose** 319:2 **herd** 80:19 **hexane** 319:9 **hey** 86:10 102:12 247:7 **HHT** 23:18 ,22 25:15 61:13 184:2 214:19 269:10 292:17 **Hi** 105:12 167:10 278:14 **hide** 28:12 37:15 **high** 30:10 38:19 127:15 163:22 204:21 239:19 245:20 266:10 295:6 326:3 329:9 329:10 **higher** 40:7 41:21 57:9 175:4,10,21 208:16 214:11 226:22 227:1 255:6 268:5 270:9 281:22 301:4,14 301:16 311:19 315:8 329:10 **highest** 141:17 **highlight** 238:22 239:2,19 **highlighted** 11:15 **highly** 29:4 262:14 267:9Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 355 **hire** 194:9 **hired** 40:12 193:18 **historical** 154:8 257:21 262:13 266:15 ,16 268:15 276:4 **historically** 265:2,8 **history** 57:10 252:5 292:17 **hit** 267:11 333:9 **Hodges** 2:16 5:10 5:10 **hold** 40:14 114:5 189:22 **holds** 148:13 268:15 **home** 5:15 23:9 26:5 43:20 44:3 51:8 51:20 52:1 54:10 55:3 ,7 58:18 177:17 194:3 ,8 230:3 ,7 263:3 267:3 ,4 322:19 323:17 324:14,17 330:7 336:19 **homeowner** 55:2 246:18 **homeowners** 220:17 332:15 **homes** 51:9 53:17 54:9 58:18 200:11 200:22 201:16 213:3 231:20 265:7 267:6 314:15 **homogenized** 87:22 **honest** 302:22 **hookup** 40:13 ,17 **hope** 4:15 8:6 12:2 12:18 14:4 20:8 35:6 124:11 203:4 294:9 336:10 **hopeful** 105:4 **hopefully** 10:11 59:17 **hoping** 60:18 62:18 93:12 108:17 **horse** 90:5 **host** 298:14 **hot** 222:17 ,22,22 **hotly** 79:8 **Houck** 2:19 7:11 ,11 54:9 59:15 ,21 60:2,2,5 ,5 123:5 ,5 123:8 ,10,10 195:14,14,19 201:11 ,11 212:21 212:21 213:7

216:5 ,5 229:4 263:6 264:16,18 264:20 268:18 312:16 313:11 ,11 324:21 ,21 327:22 329:12 **hour** 51:19 162:16 163:5 219:15 ,21 220:22 222:4,6 223:16 232:11 329:7 **hourly** 130:18 **hours** 116:20 129:7 129:14,19 130:5 130:18 159:1 186:10,20 187:9 206:10 208:11 ,12 219:9,11 ,12,13 ,14 220:1 ,2,22 223:15 223:17 ,17 ,18 224:9 225:13 228:18 231:10 261:18 **house** 152:12 167:2 179:13 189:2 191:7 198:9 204:12 232:11 243:20 263:2 290:13 ,14 333:9 **household** 22:12 24:6 186:13 226:16 256:10 **households** 186:17 196:14 197:1 ,2,3 197:4 198:10 200:17 231:2 244:3 **houses** 51:7 ,15 200:5 243:22 **housing** 48:12 52:18 53:2,4,6,7 ,7 ,11 ,11 53:14,15 ,18 54:1 54:3 ,5 ,7 ,8,12 124:4,9 209:8 ,14 214:20 262:14,15 262:16,17 ,21 263:9,11 ,12,21 264:5 ,8,12 265:15 265:16,22 266:3 ,8 266:10,14 308:11 **HPBA** 5:9 12:11 13:9,12,20 20:2 85:1 103:21 123:3 129:12 141:5 159:6 237:18 301:22

**HPBA's** 12:10 15:16 **HPBmA** 103:19 **huge** 190:9 204:12 268:6 **human** 313:16 318:1 **humbleness** 292:19 **hundred** 162:21 230:1 232:10,14 **hundreds** 42:21 43:5 45:4 **hurricane** 33:17 333:8 **hurricanes** 33:14 **hurt** 33:7 55:12 **HVAC** 75:16 167:12 170:7 179:16 184:13 190:11 193:6 **I ICC**  92:19 **ice** 33:14 322:11 ,12 322:13 326:20 **ID** 163:1 **idea** 94:12 106:9 135:6 152:10 245:8 301:3 **identification** 101:21 **identified** 42:17 119:1 ,13 121:7 125:5 138:4 149:19 164:3 199:12 208:12 285:20 300:8 ,8 308:1 **identifies** 18:5 44:8 **identify** 83:8 253:12 278:20 **identifying** 149:18 **ignite** 120:9 187:22 **ignited** 49:16,21 244:18 **igniting** 137:5 **ignition** 24:18 28:1 29:18 30:11 31:10 37:22 38:11 47:9 61:15 ,15 ,20 62:3 87:3 118:1 119:19 120:1 ,5 ,8 125:15 125:17 ,19,22 126:6 127:22 128:3 ,19 133:14 133:20 134:7 ,13

135:21 136:13 ,15 136:15 138:5 ,13 139:12,17 ,18 143:17 151:15 ,18 151:21 152:6 155:9 160:10 166:14 186:6,11 186:16 187:16,18 187:19,21 188:15 203:3 204:1 ,9,15 204:18 ,19 206:20 241:20 242:5 ,5 ,10 243:10,18 246:12 253:13 ,16 254:4,7 255:11 ,17 259:13 270:10 281:22 282:3 ,6 285:13 289:12,14 298:17 301:8 308:13 309:2,6,11 311:9 311:12,16 325:21 334:10 **ignitions** 120:11 125:22 135:22 139:11 142:11 242:9 281:12 **ignored** 45:10 46:6 56:22 **ignores** 53:19 **ignoring** 42:21 49:10 50:15 54:19 249:13 259:6 264:6,7 ,11 **III** 3:9 **illumination** 93:3 **illustrated** 82:21 **imagine** 169:22 211:2 **immediate** 5:1 56:1 **Immediately** 8:9 **impact** 8:21 ,22 9:1 9:3 ,3 18:17 32:4 32:15 34:1 38:9 41:17 42:16 43:5 43:13 ,15 ,16 48:14 53:1 56:2 57:4 59:10 74:3 ,5 115:17 124:5 160:13 163:18 186:16 202:21 225:8 227:1 230:21 247:2 267:21 270:6 272:8 ,12 273:12 276:19 278:6,10 278:13 ,16 279:8

279:10 281:17 283:1 287:6 295:3 300:21 310:4 311:20 312:10,21 313:8 317:22 321:14 335:3 **impacted** 31:11 115:14 257:20 278:21 313:21 333:7 **impactful** 226:20 **impacts** 32:10 42:21 143:3 155:2 231:4 245:20 252:11 266:7 272:8 276:21 278:9,18 278:22 279:1 ,14 280:4,10 281:1 ,11 283:8 ,21 295:16 295:22 296:3 ,18 297:21 ,22 300:5 ,6 309:11 ,19 315:18 322:12 326:6 **implement** 237:8 **implementation** 316:6 **implication** 48:21 **implies** 283:11 **importance** 23:18 244:16 **important** 11:15 13:19 18:5 46:1 ,1 62:6 65:14 70:9 70:16 71:2,4,17 127:1 ,1 166:12 206:9 244:9 245:21 287:6 296:7 297:11 313:15 315:6 316:20 332:6,19 **impose** 39:11 76:2 **imposed** 140:10 **imposes** 331:16 **impossible** 38:19 39:5 **impression** 217:22 **improve** 56:11 **improved** 27:4 57:22 58:1 ,4 95:17 **improvement** 23:19 65:16 **improving** 56:9 89:21 **inadequate** 12:14Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 356 **inappropriate** 123:17 **incentive** 19:6,9 **incentives** 16:19 **inch** 27:18 ,18 29:15 29:21 **inches** 27:20 **incident** 269:14 **inclination** 171:11 **include** 23:13 29:11 36:5 ,10,17 69:7 83:17 89:5 94:14 94:16 109:16 118:17 121:15 123:4 146:14 167:5 ,8 198:8 202:9 260:12 280:14 302:15 310:15 **included** 72:21 78:18 79:12 80:15 84:16 90:8 96:5 156:14 206:19 301:10 304:6 328:11 **includes** 20:20 22:20 83:15 118:10 246:17 255:10 282:19 305:7 319:5 **including** 21:1 ,11 31:18 34:21 36:19 39:18 69:3 94:12 126:2 146:11 164:10 189:17 277:3 308:2 309:20 331:20 **inclusion** 70:7 81:4 106:7 **income** 256:12,17 **incomplete** 319:5 **inconsistent** 79:13 **inconvenience** 277:16 **incorporate** 64:22 185:7 **incorporates** 70:15 **incorrect** 187:16 245:11 328:3 332:22 **incorrectly** 15:3 **increase** 32:8 39:17 39:20 55:7 252:7 266:20 268:7 ,8 273:9 283:11 ,13 301:14 309:6,8,13 314:22

**increased** 18:20 19:10 175:8 203:17 230:21 240:4 252:2 266:7 267:11 270:6 **increases** 186:21 309:15 **increasing** 42:4 252:9 **increasingly** 18:13 211:8 **incredible** 201:22 211:11 217:8 **incremental** 135:12 174:20 175:3 ,9 176:2 178:14,18 243:17 310:21 311:1 ,3 **incur** 281:3 **indefinitely** 80:4,21 83:21 88:13 211:11 **Independence** 1:6 **independent** 7:11 60:6 **independently** 166:2 **indicate** 95:18 260:6 **indicated** 106:5 152:4 259:19 281:11 ,16 282:3 ,6 308:17 **indicates** 178:20 **indicating** 95:21 254:11 **indication** 254:18 **indirect** 9:4 **individual** 138:22 176:14 298:1 **individually** 76:12 **individuals** 103:14 **indoor** 36:12 52:2 109:8 127:5 ,6 **induce** 19:13 **industries** 12:9 30:19 287:2 **industry** 18:9 20:1 20:19 23:21 26:21 29:17 31:15 ,17 ,18 35:3 ,12 38:17 43:2,3 ,18 44:1 45:9,12,14,18 46:8 50:2 59:10 60:7 67:14,17 86:12 96:10 97:5

97:6,19 117:10 126:13 ,17 ,21 127:3 128:15 131:12 132:17 149:19 152:12 153:1 159:8 167:14 168:3 170:1 171:5 ,16 173:7 ,17 ,18 177:19 178:7 179:11 184:15 212:1 218:22 229:13 245:3 247:12 276:8 ,14 278:7 279:7 ,13 ,14 279:21 280:5 ,12 281:1 283:2 284:9 285:10 288:9,12 288:16 291:18 294:4,11 295:18 297:5 ,21 298:13 298:15 300:13 302:4 319:16 325:21 **industry's** 50:11 **inefficiency** 58:11 **inexpensive** 330:10 **inferred** 91:4 **infiltrating** 230:7 **infiltration** 228:10 **infinitum** 270:12 **inflating** 50:16 218:9 **inflation** 251:18 257:2 **influence** 247:11 **influenced** 16:1 265:1 **influences** 312:4 **influencing** 210:20 **influx** 92:3 ,4 330:15 **inform** 12:15 331:12 **information** 8:6,10 12:14 13:4,7 ,11 13:14 15:2,3 16:16,17 20:6 21:16,18 25:17 ,18 25:21 44:15 45:13 45:14 46:4,6 103:20,21 141:15 151:22 159:11 172:2 173:15 ,17 197:11 198:2 203:6 206:19 207:4 209:13

211:13 213:18 ,18 213:20 214:2 216:2 225:6 239:4 250:17 253:20 254:7 255:21 ,22 276:4 277:14 279:21 280:2,15 280:20 293:12,13 294:10 300:14,17 313:14 **informative** 88:5 154:11 286:13 325:15 **infrared** 26:18 36:12 87:4 110:13 **infrequently** 38:1 48:8 **inherent** 84:18 264:12 **initial** 49:1 **injuries** 55:8 323:20 324:2 **injurious** 317:18 **innovation** 18:9 23:22 127:2 128:15 292:17 **input** 65:19 66:1 ,2 71:7 ,16 166:19 186:8 206:21 223:20 232:18 269:13 273:19 284:1 305:22 **inputs** 185:21 197:10 273:13 279:16 280:8 ,14 282:15 **INPV** 279:13 295:17 **insects** 33:4 **insert** 48:12 138:12 145:17 157:12 202:5 ,6 205:17 215:19 **inserted** 314:14 **inserts** 23:12 104:2 104:3 118:9,13 123:21 ,22 124:2 124:10 140:2,5 142:9 146:14 147:15 150:20 151:4 202:9 205:11 250:7 ,22 263:1 ,19 267:7 309:16 314:5 **inside** 29:6 30:2 138:8 232:5

**insight** 336:10 **insights** 291:15 **install** 40:10,12 48:10 79:6 181:20 183:6 184:18 191:4 193:1 ,7 ,19 194:8 195:10,10 243:9 **installation** 28:13 30:2 39:4,11 ,18 40:8 48:9 138:11 192:5 195:6 240:20 243:8 ,16 243:17 249:20 250:4,6,8,21 292:14 308:20,22 310:16 **installations** 233:11 **installed** 28:17 ,18 29:6 30:5 36:3 37:8 74:17 77:9 79:12 110:14 121:11 209:4 228:5 240:9,13 ,19 260:18 265:20,21 272:17 **installer** 183:1 194:9 **installing** 191:9,16 194:18 **instant** 52:3 ,4 58:1 **Institute** 2:18 3:12 3:16 6:4,10 65:14 92:18 121:21 187:3 204:8 225:22 231:13 256:20 **instructions** 50:8 194:6 **instructive** 75:2 **intact** 107:5 **integrity** 216:2 **intelligent** 82:18 **intelligently** 14:2 **intend** 18:22 23:2 109:3 ,8 112:15 ,15 **intended** 14:8 16:12 24:14 75:8 79:21 81:1 ,6 91:5 94:4,5 94:21 ,22 97:9 144:6 145:10,12 192:3 215:14 228:5 297:20 **intending** 94:13 95:1 ,1 ,2 96:4Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 357 112:11 **intensive** 130:11 **intent** 36:4 110:9,21 **interacting** 226:21 **interaction** 132:20 **interacts** 138:22 274:3 **InterCan** 221:3 **interest** 19:14 256:8 272:19 277:15 282:21 325:16 **interested** 83:14 194:13 **interesting** 255:2 **Interestingly** 97:16 **interests** 68:17 **interfere** 58:6 **interferes** 38:13 **intermediate** 66:14 **intermittent** 37:22 38:3 ,10 40:7 ,9 47:9,11 ,18,19,22 48:4,8,10,13 ,14 48:17 ,20,21 49:4 49:7 50:18 52:7 120:11 125:22 135:21 ,22 139:11 139:20 186:6,9,11 186:14 187:17 ,19 187:20 203:3 ,13 204:5 206:10 219:10,12 230:17 230:19 233:7 241:9,22 247:16 247:18 254:21 255:9,13 257:16 257:19 258:4 260:22 261:2 273:22 274:1 ,7 **internally** 217:19 **internet** 44:5 177:18 **interruption** 137:7 **interview** 152:3 ,10 152:16 153:5 161:7 207:11 280:2 **interviewed** 162:5 **interviews** 117:16 126:4 152:2 279:15 280:6 281:8 300:18 308:3 **introduce** 7:8 63:5 **introduction** 15:15 **introductions** 5:1 **intuitive** 317:7

**invest** 16:18 ,21 **investigate** 276:20 **investment** 16:22 285:17 **investments** 285:1 ,7 296:4 **invitation** 242:19 **invite** 11:7 304:5 **involved** 15:6 66:19 80:13 123:16 **Iowa** 23:16 **IPI** 120:15 135:22 141:15 142:6 188:7 214:10 219:13 ,22 220:1 221:13 233:4 234:11 243:12,19 244:20 245:3 ,4,9 245:19 246:17 ,19 247:22 255:5 ,5 258:11 260:19 287:13 292:5 335:11 **IPIs** 260:7 **Iron** 26:14 **irrelevant** 76:2 **isolated** 54:11 242:5 **isomers** 319:12 **issuance** 21:12 **issue** 11:9,12 13:8 13:13 ,20 14:1 ,4,6 15:19 16:7 ,11 19:17 29:1 ,3 54:19 68:1 ,18 72:11 75:11 79:5 80:3 81:3 96:20 103:2 106:17 115:4 133:8 192:19,21 195:8 197:6,14 202:4 210:6 215:10,12 217:6 218:12,21 219:6 224:9 245:1 245:17 259:18 269:18 277:12 289:7 ,13 ,17 307:6 321:21 322:16 334:4 335:10 **issued** 21:7 **issues** 9:7 ,8 13:2,17 14:2,11 15:10,11 15:13 20:2,6 25:22 60:8 66:22 68:6 72:18 76:14 76:17 87:1 126:11 153:13 173:19

174:13 176:13 201:12 210:18 218:1 ,11 246:18 265:2 281:7 288:19 291:6 315:19 316:13 322:18 330:11 331:20 334:2 **J J**  2:8 3:12 **Jack** 2:14 5:5 12:4,5 84:19,21 195:22 196:1 301:21 306:2 **jacket** 63:2 **James** 2:19 54:9 60:2,5 123:5 ,7 ,10 195:14 201:9,11 212:20,21 216:4,5 229:2 263:5 312:15 313:10,11 **January** 91:21 **Jessica** 3:1 7:5 278:14 296:6 297:16,18 300:3 **Jim** 2:21 6:11 7:11 56:19 59:14,20 141:13 146:19 147:9,21 159:5 170:5 173:9 205:9 214:6,7 232:21 255:8 324:19,21 327:20 329:11 **Jim's** 297:10,17 **job** 74:1 85:6,10 171:7 **jobs** 287:6 **John** 2:3 ,16 3:13 5:10 6:1 10:22 11:1 63:21 69:18 73:1 ,13 78:6 98:14 100:3 ,8 117:19 118:7 122:17 129:4,21 129:22 130:21 142:22 170:9 190:5 194:21 236:1 261:14 268:13 325:13 336:7 **John's** 329:12 **join** 10:3 67:22 **joined** 103:14 **joining** 10:16,18 131:5 255:3

**judicial** 86:8 **July** 232:12 **jump** 300:4 307:16 332:4 **jumping** 168:18 170:2 **jurisdiction** 317:22 **jurisdictional** 24:5 **jurisdictions** 127:12 316:4 **Justice** 330:21 **justification** 100:19 116:6 **justified** 17:13 22:8 50:14 73:20 88:19 115:8 179:6 **justify** 13:4 76:12 87:17 88:17 **Justin** 3:3 7:3 116:22 155:8 206:14,15 **K KAPSH**  234:5 ,9,22 235:3 ,6 **Katrina** 335:17 **keep** 9:20 10:6 79:17 86:2 91:7 114:12 135:1 196:10 234:18 272:6 293:21 312:6 **keeping** 159:19 **keeps** 32:20 **Kentucky** 63:12 **kept** 49:11 ,13 **key** 44:8 ,22 87:12 117:16 121:9 128:10 130:6 184:17 210:18 ,20 280:19 281:7 282:15 284:1 296:17 **kicked** 103:11 ,18 **kicks** 33:3 **kill** 33:8 **kind** 20:8 25:4 48:16 80:2,2,21 94:3 95:9 100:15 103:21 108:15 121:9,17 135:10 165:20 187:5 189:6 193:3 221:12 231:14 232:12 233:15 238:18 240:18

269:16 291:9 293:8 295:2 305:8 315:16 318:6 331:10 332:5 **kinds** 83:15 111:18 319:15 **kit** 54:20 156:20 157:5 **kitchen** 77:22 83:12 86:19 94:15 **kits** 50:4 89:15 156:20,21 ,22 157:7 ,14 255:1 **knees** 18:7 210:22 237:3 **knob** 18:14 **knock** 33:14 **knocked** 33:17 **know** 7:10 31:14 32:18 45:20 46:5 66:5 ,6 73:9 75:8 75:15 76:13 77:16 78:8 79:19 80:11 80:19 82:2,14,19 84:8 85:7 86:8 ,8 86:10 87:6,9 89:7 92:18 93:17 94:6 94:6,8,10,17 ,18 94:19,20 97:16,17 98:3 101:2,9 106:5 ,5 ,6,9,13 ,21 107:12,16 108:2 111:4 113:9,20 116:5 ,11 117:5 ,13 117:21 119:20,22 120:2 121:14 122:4 123:1 124:19,21 125:11 127:1 130:17 136:3 ,4 137:16 139:9,15 140:9,21 141:8 142:11 ,16 152:4,5 ,11 ,14 153:12,19,21 154:2,8 155:20 157:13 ,21 161:4 163:4 165:10 167:13 170:1 ,22 171:6 173:2,13 ,14 174:13 177:4 178:5 183:20 191:7 ,21 192:9 193:21 197:22 198:3 206:20 207:16 208:8Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 358 209:3 210:7 ,12,21 211:9 212:7 215:22 217:6 218:10,18,22 219:1 224:16,20 228:17 232:3 ,4,6 232:9 236:21 237:16 238:1 ,19 239:13 242:15 245:17 247:6 248:1 257:4,6 259:1 ,21 262:22 263:2,15 264:2 267:8 268:6 270:5 276:9 277:12,13 286:5 ,15 ,19 287:1 287:2,8 288:9,15 289:8 290:14,15 291:10,22 292:4 293:10 296:10,13 297:6 298:11 ,18 298:18 ,22 299:7 299:11 302:1 ,3 ,4 302:4,8 304:7 306:21 312:1 313:12 316:18 318:22 321:1 326:9,12 328:9,15 328:19 331:5 ,11 331:15 333:7 334:4,5 ,15 ,17 335:10,13 ,22 **knowing** 101:3 **knowledge** 171:15 **known** 26:15 88:10 279:9 318:9,14 319:9 **knows** 82:22 83:5 298:22 **Kupsh** 2:21 6:11 ,11 141:11 ,14,21 142:1 ,4 146:19,20 147:11 148:3 ,7 ,10 148:15 ,18 159:5 ,5 159:13 170:5 ,5 205:10 214:7 ,7 232:21 ,21 233:9 233:17 246:14 255:8 ,8,15 **L l**  13:12 **l/2** 44:17 ,20 **lab** 3:18 ,19 297:6 299:19 **labeled** 199:15 **labeling** 50:12,16

**labelling** 50:3 ,13 **labor** 141:1 175:8 243:9,22 253:10 **Laboratory** 6:18 ,22 163:14 **Labs** 45:20 **lack** 16:15 24:18 46:7 58:1 87:7 125:17 231:1 ,7 277:17 327:2 **lacks** 214:5 **Lakeville** 23:10 **language** 75:10 76:18 81:7 93:17 **Lapato** 2:22 6:5 ,5 **large** 12:12 27:21 29:11 ,15 31:14,16 46:7 199:13 264:12 290:10 293:5 300:21 301:3 ,3 302:1 ,6 302:11 303:2,21 304:1 ,14 306:14 306:21 **largely** 71:16 284:21 301:1 **larger** 29:22 30:21 31:2 32:13 34:12 133:21 134:16 140:7 281:20 289:15 ,21 **largest** 143:14 **Larson** 170:9 **Lastly** 33:10 **lately** 325:22 **latest** 166:22 179:6 196:15 **Law** 3:5 ,11 **lawful** 76:13 **lawfully** 13:20 **Lawrence** 3:18 ,19 6:17 ,21 45:19 163:14 297:5 **LBNL** 202:13 **LCC** 189:7 240:7 240:10,11 ,16 260:18 272:11 **LCC's** 240:2,6,8 **lead** 80:10 278:8 281:15 301:14 309:4 **leader** 23:10 **leading** 23:21 56:8 **leads** 78:16 79:10 219:21 **leakage** 321:11

**leap** 311:15 **leaps** 197:15 **leave** 16:3 49:15 ,20 51:22 84:12,13 ,13 88:13 102:3 123:6 126:7 161:13 162:19 211:6 212:16 221:8 241:14 246:6 287:20 291:3 294:2 **leaves** 106:2 **leaving** 49:17 243:14 **left** 5:1 22:18 80:4 80:21 83:20 102:11 130:10 163:10,12 182:14 208:14 211:10 262:1 **legal** 75:12 76:14 82:15 127:5 **length** 62:17 130:2 271:20 **Leslie** 2:7 5:18 34:9 34:10 63:1 73:22 89:12 91:7 97:13 108:20 112:9 114:12 120:21 121:4 134:4,17 136:9 140:13 144:2 153:1 ,7 ,8 154:14 156:5 161:10,11 164:20 165:3 ,12 168:13 171:20 172:6 175:12 177:1 ,9,12 178:19 185:9,9 191:1 198:13 ,14 203:9 207:14,15 207:22 209:16 228:13 238:7 241:10,11 ,14 250:10,11 252:12 252:13 254:19 258:7 260:5 271:2 290:21 295:9 299:13 302:22 303:5 310:6,7 312:6 324:18 326:14 **Leslie's** 164:9 190:6 **lessen** 31:1 **lessening** 25:2 292:12 **lessens** 324:9

**lesser** 30:20 34:22 290:13 **let's** 6:15 12:1 13:22 62:21 73:12 79:14 82:16,16 89:8 94:9 95:14 101:17 102:12 153:7 160:7 ,16 161:17 162:13 ,16 163:8 168:21 169:4 170:9 192:15 193:21 208:9 234:13 238:15 253:7 ,9 261:17 295:4 298:5 305:18 ,19 333:16 **letter** 336:14,16 **level** 54:1 ,7 ,8,12,13 54:16 62:19 76:4 98:20 129:16,19 142:17 167:12 248:7 274:2 **levels** 73:17 257:15 **Lewis** 3:1 7:5 ,5 278:14,14 295:15 297:19 300:4 302:15 303:7 ,9 304:2,5 306:20 307:12,21 308:6 **license** 193:4 **licensed** 193:2,6 **licensing** 192:19 **life** 27:14 31:8 240:3 274:21 **lifecycle** 8:18 114:4 163:16,17 185:22 202:18 ,22 203:7 239:21 240:2,18 **lifetime** 74:4 240:9 240:21 241:1 253:20 255:19 256:1 ,3 ,3 ,6 261:8 261:9 272:9,14 274:19 **light** 17:6 18:4,10 18:20 19:5 ,20 21:19 22:14,16 40:1 41:3 46:12 46:18 84:2 85:20 88:3 89:3 90:4 116:12 120:6 130:8 188:5 197:12 210:21 211:2,5 ,14,16 213:4 216:9,10 218:11 225:3

230:2,11 236:9,16 236:17 ,18 244:14 275:13 285:14 309:10 322:6 **lighted** 31:2 311:14 **lighter** 137:12 **lights** 16:3 17:2 18:6,12,15 19:22 22:18 35:17 36:11 36:13 39:15 ,22 46:10 78:1 79:20 80:4,16,21 83:11 83:20 84:4,7 ,15 85:17 89:6 93:2,9 94:12 106:16 109:4,9,16,18,22 115:9 116:3 ,5 130:10 137:11 153:21 154:21 156:4 158:19,22 187:6 197:11 210:8 219:2 225:4 259:21 275:12 277:18 281:14 282:8 ,10 285:12 285:15 300:20 301:14 308:14 **lights,that's** 111:6 **lignin** 319:2 **likelihood** 268:19 **limit** 22:2 43:17 48:13 57:18 59:4 84:9 133:17 **limitation** 43:11 48:18 76:1 **limitations** 47:17 289:11 **limited** 22:13 40:18 47:16 63:9 197:12 210:9 289:5 **limiting** 31:2 55:20 **limits** 39:3 **Linda** 163:9 **line** 27:9 60:21 117:15 132:5 162:1 172:4 189:11 259:5 267:20 269:17 270:11 ,12 **linear** 229:22 **lined** 252:3 **lines** 33:15 272:1 285:5 289:8 290:7 **linger** 253:7 **link** 197:21Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 359 **linked** 199:20 236:6 **list** 43:19,22 81:18 81:19 266:19 302:12 303:8 ,9 304:6 305:21 306:10 307:8 310:9 318:20 319:4,15 ,21 320:7 **listed** 70:14 82:2 179:5 223:19 225:10 241:8 244:3 248:17 ,18 249:5 251:13 252:17 277:3 319:4 **listen** 35:7 **listing** 141:5 204:3 **lists** 166:16 179:12 180:1 230:15 ,17 231:7 **lit** 55:1 80:17 88:19 125:16 127:4,6 136:3 ,6,11 258:15 258:16,18,20 **literally** 81:4 277:20 **literature** 117:13 ,14 146:6 151:19 154:10 155:11 207:4 238:6 243:14 255:22 285:9 **little** 11:12 33:19 39:21 66:17 67:5 108:10 125:13 ,20 134:11 ,15 138:3 139:9 147:8 152:8 171:7 178:1 ,11 187:12 188:18 216:7 ,16 222:7 229:5 ,22 238:19 242:3 263:7 267:12 295:21 297:9 303:22 317:1 318:21 326:10 **live** 213:19 **lives** 278:11 **living** 19:19 **LLC** 3:6,11 **LLP** 2:16 **load** 186:21 223:22 231:8 232:10,17 **local** 57:13 61:8 315:10,21 316:4,9 317:21 320:18 **located** 19:19 29:1 229:18 308:18

**location** 27:9 28:22 193:10 **log** 27:10,13 ,15 28:2 28:16,19 29:15 30:17 ,21 31:8 32:8 ,10 33:10,15 34:4 35:3 ,12 36:19 37:7 ,8,11 37:13 ,17 38:2,11 38:12 39:3 ,4,8,18 40:2 42:6 43:2,4 44:12,21 46:20,21 47:3 ,4,13 ,18,20 48:1 ,2,6,9,18,20 48:22 49:3 ,6,11 50:1 ,4,18 51:8 ,15 52:8 ,10 53:10,21 55:4,12,16,20,22 56:7 ,14,17 57:2,5 57:18 ,20 58:16 59:10 61:17 79:5 80:17 83:7 84:14 88:19 104:4,4 118:19 121:7 ,8,10 121:11 124:9 127:11 ,20 140:8 145:18 146:5 ,7 ,11 147:1 ,17 150:22 151:1 172:10 205:12 215:19 230:5 250:8 263:1 263:20 267:6 270:6,9 279:3 289:12,21 290:13 296:18 298:19 299:21 301:19 303:16 307:22 308:1 ,3 ,15 309:3 309:12,12,14,18 309:22 310:8 311:6,11 ,13 314:4 314:8 ,22 318:5 325:20 329:5 **logical** 292:3 **logs** 3:10 5:17 26:15 26:17 27:5 29:13 34:12 35:8 ,10,14 37:14 38:2,8,9,21 38:22 41:4 42:8 42:11 ,19 47:7 51:11 52:3 53:13 55:7 ,8,11 58:10 58:18 59:2 61:13 78:17 79:11 118:16,19 124:1 ,1 124:2 133:13

146:14 159:14 202:17 251:1 290:6 308:9 327:1 331:4 **long** 28:9,10 65:17 96:9 222:22 297:10 312:11 ,12 327:17 328:8 **longer** 51:4 221:12 234:1 255:5 285:19 314:9 **look** 8:7 20:11 44:15 44:16 54:8 57:20 61:12,21 76:19 78:2,8 95:9 102:18 108:11 114:18 119:22 128:13 138:21 141:15 144:10 153:14 154:10 160:5 ,8 165:10 170:21 176:14,15 181:4 182:2,12 194:21 199:11 200:11 205:11 213:8 214:8 216:22 217:9 228:17 ,22 242:21 252:1 ,3 ,4 269:12 272:5 287:21 293:10 300:5 304:6 305:2 307:8 319:1 327:14 328:12 330:6 333:18 335:17 **looked** 44:4,4 101:11 104:15 128:11 139:15 150:18 184:13 199:16 205:7 217:6 221:5 225:22 263:17 294:12 300:6 309:5 **looking** 59:6 76:18 77:11 ,15 85:18 ,21 88:5 89:17 ,21 95:11 105:14 108:16 110:9 111:2 125:14 131:17 139:2 143:14 155:5 157:10 165:19 171:7 176:13 187:4 198:4 215:18 224:12

231:15 249:1 257:4 269:13 293:4 303:15 309:13 313:2 330:5 **looks** 79:4 106:12 112:10 156:19 210:18 279:4 **Los** 56:9 329:7 ,8 **lose** 332:16 **losing** 98:5 **loss** 180:2 **losses** 229:8 255:6 273:18 321:8 **lost** 25:7 230:6 **lot** 9:19 61:14 62:12 66:5 69:2 74:10 74:19 76:19 102:18 106:13 113:6 121:22 137:20 139:4 149:9,9 153:17 155:17 162:13 ,15 173:19 174:13 184:21 216:1 ,17 230:9 232:3 234:17 244:19 247:10 286:19 290:10 292:10 295:4 298:19 299:20,22 312:12 320:12 331:16,22 336:10 **love** 236:5 247:9 **low** 38:4 41:17 58:13 59:6 170:3 245:21 285:2 **Lowe's** 177:17 **lower** 38:7 49:1 147:2 172:7 234:7 234:17 ,17 240:22 268:19 269:22 301:5 ,9,15 **lowering** 283:20 **lowest** 58:10 **LP** 45:6 134:7 ,19,19 252:14 **LPG** 249:5 325:1 **lumped** 106:20 **lumping** 26:22 61:17 215:21 **lunch** 8:20,21 157:20 160:16 162:14 **Lung** 56:5 **luxury** 311:2 **M ma'am**  242:12 **mad** 204:14 **magazine** 43:20,21 44:3 54:10 209:1 **magnitude** 17:9,12 127:15 206:11 216:13 229:12 295:22 296:1 ,3 **mail** 275:21 **main** 46:13 120:9 130:2 137:5 148:4 182:3 186:15 204:6 206:4,16,21 208:1 219:13 ,14 219:15 ,16,17 ,20 219:21 221:17 222:4 223:1 ,15 ,16 223:17 ,20 225:18 230:8 244:18 245:11 259:4 278:17 **maintain** 144:13 283:9,17 ,18 **maintaining** 29:12 **maintenance** 253:6 253:12,14 316:7 **major** 56:2 126:11 128:16 153:18 ,19 167:11 190:10 218:13 239:2 259:19 279:12 304:9,11 336:2 **majority** 43:2 121:22 200:4 201:7 292:6 **makeup** 319:1 **making** 35:14 44:7 55:22 57:2 58:7 98:6 144:21 176:10 235:19 299:8 307:17 326:10 **manage** 247:13 **managed** 317:1 **Management** 56:12 **manager** 11:2 **managing** 117:1 **mandated** 316:3 **mandatory** 276:22 **manifestation** 324:16 **manner** 50:20 156:1 **manual** 41:10 46:18Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 360 52:12 140:11 145:19 146:3 ,6,21 146:22 147:12,16 148:2,7 ,11 149:4 149:5 ,13 ,21 ,22 150:11 ,13 151:1 311:7 **manufacture** 23:11 34:19 278:13 281:13 286:2 287:3 ,4 **manufacturer** 27:19 32:7 ,11 37:12 117:15 126:3 129:15 ,19 130:1 131:2 141:8 141:10 145:6 151:5 152:2 153:4 153:5 ,18 160:13 160:20,21 161:1 ,4 161:7 162:10 163:21 164:2,6 166:18 173:2 178:15 181:11 ,13 207:1 213:20 214:9 217:20 241:5 242:16 245:3 246:14,16 246:20 255:22 277:4 278:16 279:8 280:16,21 283:22 285:4 287:10 292:5 300:12 304:1 306:18 310:4 **manufacturers** 21:5 27:17 28:11 30:10 30:17 31:11 ,14,19 32:13 34:12 42:6 42:18 43:8 ,18 44:1 ,2,6,9 45:2 61:9 74:5 99:14 127:21 133:19 141:6 143:4 144:21 146:17 152:15 153:19 159:12 162:4 166:19 173:18 177:14 195:7 207:11 245:10,15 246:6 259:11 ,20 270:6 276:3 278:19,20,22 279:2,16 280:3 ,7 281:3 ,8,10,16,19 281:21 282:2,5 283:9,12,16 284:4

289:18 296:2 298:1 ,2 300:6,8 300:16,19,22 301:3 ,4,7 ,15 ,16 301:20 302:2,16 303:12,12,15 ,18 306:13 ,15 307:22 308:2,3 ,12,17 309:1 334:1 **manufacturers'** 279:22 **manufacturing** 8:22 23:15 26:17 34:14 59:9 63:11 241:5 241:6 279:6 282:18 296:3 ,18 299:6 312:10 **map** 64:2 **mapping** 64:17 **march** 1:11 4:7 44:2 115:18 116:9 **margin** 169:21 283:3 ,6 **marginal** 248:13 ,16 248:20 249:2 251:7 ,8 316:7 **mark** 183:16 **market** 8:15 17:19 23:10 27:16 38:8 38:22 39:7 44:9 44:22 46:9 47:21 48:15 ,16,19 59:5 70:13 ,15 ,20 71:7 79:2 81:15 89:18 100:1 107:5 113:22 114:2 115:14,17 ,20 116:16 117:2,4,6 117:7 ,12 120:14 122:21 ,22 123:11 124:3 ,4 125:13 ,15 126:1 128:22 130:16 132:1 134:19,19 135:2 136:1 139:13 142:8 143:2 144:7 151:12,13 154:9 156:7 ,17 ,18 157:6 157:22 158:3 ,14 160:5 164:11 ,12 164:14,16 166:11 166:17 168:15 172:7 ,8,16 174:19 174:20 177:15 178:12 180:4,5 ,10 180:21 184:6,8,13

184:22 195:8 198:11 202:20 209:4 212:8 219:4 219:4 233:10 246:11 248:1 ,3 257:14 258:2,10 258:11 259:8 260:21 267:15 ,17 267:18 271:19 280:15 281:18 287:13 288:13 289:4 290:4 308:1 308:4 333:6 **marketed** 327:10 **marketers** 20:22 **marketing** 23:8 26:5 30:16 44:13 194:22 254:17 **marketplace** 62:12 178:1 289:16 **markets** 15:6 123:17 124:6 **marking** 181:7 **markup** 160:20 161:9 162:4,10 164:15 166:18 ,20 167:4 168:15 172:15 ,20 174:21 175:1 ,9,18 176:1 176:2 177:5 178:15 ,15 ,17 191:15 192:4 194:17 241:5 ,6,7 280:21 282:16,17 282:22 283:2,4,5 283:9,17 ,19,20 **markups** 8:18 163:12,15 ,19 166:11 ,13 174:18 175:3 284:1 **Martin** 131:5 243:11 255:3 **Martin's** 255:4 **Maryland** 23:17 33:16 **masonry** 37:9 38:18 38:20 39:1 ,6 53:20 85:13 121:11 230:5 **mass** 84:14 177:17 320:16 321:1 **masses** 320:2 **match** 31:2 80:17 88:19 125:16 127:4,6 136:3 ,6 136:11 137:3 ,21

145:8 ,11 ,13 258:15 ,16,18,20 311:14 **matchless** 195:9 309:22 **material** 18:3 243:9 253:11 **materially** 14:19 **materials** 59:19 135:15 ,17 299:9 **matter** 154:22 155:2,3 173:16 194:16 206:5 319:13 320:5 **matters** 207:16 208:8 **max** 143:8 ,12 **maximum** 47:4,7 ,13 50:14 98:21 143:10,18 **Maxitrol** 3:13 6:2 130:1 160:4 **mean** 75:14 77:3 ,5 77:22 80:8 ,16,18 81:7 84:3 85:2 87:2,22 90:7 91:17 92:11 ,12 93:17 94:13 100:21 101:1 106:11 109:9,10 109:21 112:16 116:2 134:5 143:11 151:15 153:19 154:4 159:6 168:1 ,14 177:9 188:13 190:9,9 192:13 194:14 197:21 198:16 200:4 203:15 ,20 208:19 214:21 237:13 ,14 237:15 ,20 238:5 260:3 269:12 272:2 275:14 287:11 288:19 328:8 331:4 **meaning** 60:22 77:10 **meaningful** 77:3 **means** 35:21 101:19 109:19 115:15 118:13 129:9 137:4 156:11 161:18 195:7 213:14 244:1 260:21 261:20

274:6 **meant** 81:19 107:22 111:14 141:20 204:21 242:10 243:17 **measured** 313:18 319:22 320:13 **measurement** 199:10 **measures** 52:18 **mechanical** 164:6 165:5 ,14,15 166:21 181:1 183:15 ,19 191:18 193:6 195:3 244:1 **mechanism** 55:1 **median** 256:3 257:6 257:10 261:10 **meet** 24:4 27:16 76:8 81:16,21 107:11 113:11 115:16 **meeting** 1:1 ,3 2:1 4:5 ,14,20 8:12 9:9 9:17 10:17 ,20,21 11:3 65:19,22 99:9,17 100:11 ,17 336:22 **meetings** 10:5 73:9 **meets** 87:15 90:10 142:19 **member** 23:14 152:18 **members** 21:3 170:6 302:3 **membership** 20:20 **mention** 120:12 136:2 334:16 **mentioned** 45:6 65:3 69:19 72:12 89:15 117:19 119:20 121:8 ,15 128:20 136:2 139:10 153:17 206:18 214:19 222:9 238:8 282:9 282:15 292:4 296:6,8 299:16,17 300:18 325:20 **merchants** 177:17 **mercury** 313:1 **merely** 28:4 149:14 **message** 19:15 **met** 64:15 **meter** 205:3Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 361 **methane** 313:1 321:6,7 ,10 **methanol** 319:9 **method** 138:20 266:9 271:14 **methodologies** 135:9 **methodology** 135:13 138:2 186:2 240:7 **metric** 279:13 **metrics** 313:19 320:18 **MIA** 278:16,18 279:4,15 ,19 280:20 281:7 284:2 **mic** 189:20 **Michael** 2:9 3:4 20:16 170:10 **Michigan** 32:17 235:12 **microns** 317:15 **microphone** 5:2 6:16 60:1 63:6 67:3 72:7 89:13 100:5 105:10 108:21 134:4 154:16 164:21 203:10 206:14 241:13 312:7 **microphones** 10:2 **microsecond** 138:14 **Mid** 5:21 **mid-afternoon** 9:1 **mid-Atlantic** 61:7 **mid-day** 8:20 **mid-morning** 8:16 **middle** 108:22 **Midwest** 170:10 **Mike** 5:12 6:19 20:14 192:1 ,2 295:20 298:3 307:6 **mild** 294:8 **millable** 30:22 **million** 54:3 ,8,12 180:15 ,16 197:2 200:17 ,18,22 213:11 230:1 252:21 268:6 275:4 284:10,12 296:6 323:21 324:2 **millivolt** 30:3 40:11 140:2,7 145:18 146:3 ,21 147:3 ,9

147:13 ,19 148:3 ,4 148:10,17 ,20 149:1 ,5 ,7 ,10,21 150:4,6,14,15 ,22 311:8 **millivoltage** 149:10 **millivolts** 148:2 **mind** 148:1 191:10 236:16 293:7 302:21 **mine** 32:17 333:8 333:13 **minimum** 142:19 257:18 **Minnesota** 23:10,16 **minus** 213:11 229:6 **minute** 111:15 224:10 **minutes** 101:16,18 101:19,19 219:20 220:21 221:18 222:5 261:18 335:7 **misaligned** 16:19 **mischaracterizati ...**  70:17 **mischaracterized** 304:8 ,20 **mischaracterizes** 72:4 **misleading** 150:15 **missed** 126:12 **missing** 165:3 182:13 ,15 198:1 ,7 201:3 ,4 **mistake** 136:19,20 **misunderstanding** 267:15 **misunderstandings** 13:1 15:5 **mitigate** 309:19 **mixes** 36:15 **mode** 9:22 15:20 24:22 25:11 64:22 64:22 99:7 129:7 142:16 143:14,19 188:9,10 208:16 293:1 **model** 135:20 145:4 151:21 153:14 160:9 177:16 206:19 219:1 ,3 237:13 257:21 276:4,5 ,9 279:9 279:10,12,17 280:9,11 ,22

282:16,22 285:22 326:9 327:7 **modeled** 283:2 301:6 **modeling** 330:19 **models** 153:15 237:16 276:11 284:15 285:10,11 285:12,15 ,16,20 332:13 **modes** 208:13 233:16 **modest** 57:16 **modified** 19:2 277:1 **modulation** 30:8 **module** 28:6 253:21 255:17 **moisture** 32:20 **mom** 171:5 **moment** 14:1 79:16 118:17 236:1 245:2 253:8 286:8 332:7 ,19 **Monday** 1:11 **money** 49:6 134:20 238:11 299:20 312:2 **monitor** 22:16 **monolithic** 26:20 27:5 **monoxide** 33:6 70:22 316:21 317:8 324:11 ,12 **month** 24:6,8 32:20 254:22 334:20 335:5 **month's** 43:20 **monthly** 248:13 ,15 248:19 249:4 251:6,8 **months** 49:22 73:5 192:20 253:2 299:9 **morning** 4:3 ,4,11 4:13 12:6 20:15 23:7 26:13 41:14 63:15 116:21 ,22 292:7 293:15 **Moroz** 3:7 63:8 ,8,16 67:4,12,18 69:18 70:1 90:11 92:14 125:2,2 131:9 138:1 ,1 147:8 ,22 148:6,9,13 ,17 ,21 149:16 150:12 162:3 ,8 171:22

172:19,19 213:16 213:16 220:15 242:19 247:4 250:17 286:7 ,7 **mounted** 314:14 **move** 61:2 62:16,16 78:10 107:3 116:15 ,16 121:5 122:13 125:11 160:2 164:2 190:4 195:11 208:9 219:10 238:18 248:9 272:3 286:22 298:3 ,7 301:19 310:14 **moved** 292:5 **movement** 138:10 138:10 **moving** 8:13 ,15 130:16 135:2,3 185:17 203:21 219:8 243:6 256:5 276:17 278:12 282:13 288:10 289:7 307:21 312:14 325:21 **MPC** 309:6,8,13 ,14 **MPC's** 161:8 301:15 **MR.SIAP** 180:6 **MSP** 163:21 174:21 175:1 ,4,6,10 **MSRP** 39:17 **multi-couple** 149:8 **multi-family** 53:18 53:20 265:20 268:5 ,8,12,18 269:2,20 271:4 **multi-housing** 266:2 **multi-national** 307:3 **multiple** 195:1 280:21 303:17 **multiplication** 161:1 196:9 **multiplier** 282:17 **multiplying** 161:4 248:14 **mushroom** 110:12 **mute** 10:6 **MVOC** 320:15 ,16 **N N**  4:1 **N20** 313:1

**Nagivant** 7:1 **name** 4:9 5:3 9:14 9:14 12:5 20:15 23:7 26:3 ,9 34:7 60:2,5 63:6,8 88:9 105:11 116:22 126:16 165:1 206:19 212:12 278:14 319:11 **named** 88:8 **nameplate** 204:17 205:2 **names** 307:10 **naphthalene** 319:11 **Napoleon** 3:7 **narrative** 24:13 **narrow** 92:10 198:5 **nasty** 331:22 **national** 2:9 3:18 ,19 5:12 6:18 ,22 8:21 20:17 ,18 41:8 45:20 57:7 63:10 69:21 70:2 114:4 155:2 163:14,18 202:21 272:7 ,12 272:13 273:2 274:10 276:20 286:14 297:6 312:21 313:8 315:22 316:2,5 322:20 **nationally** 197:2,4 **natural** 5:11 22:3 31:3 41:8 ,15 ,18 41:19 46:17 51:1 51:14 57:8 ,9,11 57:12,13 ,14 127:12 134:8 ,10 134:12,15 137:12 196:18 248:18 251:13 252:14,18 311:14 317:10,13 321:6,8,11 ,14 323:13 ,22 325:1 326:1 328:12 329:6,7 330:9,12 331:16 **nature** 84:18 284:15 322:10 **Navigant** 3:1 ,2,3 ,4 6:19 7:3 ,5 45:15 117:1 136:11 152:10 206:15 278:15 295:20 297:1 312:9Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 362 **NC** 67:12 **near** 40:13 197:7 **nearly** 40:21 **necessarily** 42:12 155:3 168:8 169:19 192:5 ,11 210:15 239:13 242:3 ,20 297:22 299:10 331:17 **necessary** 16:15 25:18 38:15 119:6 243:9 247:17 **need** 11:20 14:8 19:9 30:21 33:20 53:16 76:11 86:21 87:1 ,5 94:17 ,18 95:1 101:1 103:5 106:22 115:9 135:20 149:9,13 159:3 163:1 171:3 177:3 ,3 ,5 185:2 188:18 194:6 247:20 260:1 261:19 265:4,17 272:3 288:11 297:3 330:6 331:2 335:14 336:13 ,14 **needed** 229:17 249:1 296:4 **needs** 43:8 72:19 102:7 260:4 277:22 287:15 332:10 **negative** 32:10 33:22 51:6 56:2 57:4 59:10 230:6 237:15 295:3 ,17 **negatively** 313:21 318:2 **neglected** 313:17 **neighbor's** 204:12 **neighborhood** 290:14 **NES** 272:13 277:7 **nest** 33:5 **net** 57:4 261:4 272:16 273:3 ,11 274:11 ,13 ,14 279:13 294:4 295:3 **network** 34:18 172:4 330:9 **neutral** 321:3 **never** 14:22 54:13 66:11 ,14,21 70:22 71:12 76:7 88:7 94:14 116:10

255:1 298:9 299:2 305:17 **new** 13:5 ,6 28:14 31:3 37:22 41:16 53:12 65:1 97:2,2 103:1 124:4,9 131:10,13 ,15 132:3 135:12 160:9 164:4,7 168:16 178:13 179:3 ,14 180:5 ,17 182:14 184:11 211:22 212:7 239:8 247:7 262:21 263:3 ,20 264:5 ,8,13 265:7 265:8 ,15 ,22 266:3 268:20 284:18 ,18 287:14 308:11 314:15 315:3 **newer** 298:14 **newly** 153:22 200:21 **NIA** 272:8 273:12 273:20 274:9 277:1 **nice** 4:10 8:5 243:3 270:3 327:8 **niche** 178:1 **night** 51:22 **nilly** 76:9 **noise** 232:12 **nominal** 251:18 ,19 256:21 285:3 **non** 179:14 **non-active** 129:7 **non-existent** 56:21 **non-heating** 186:20 187:3 **non-HPBA** 159:10 159:12 **non-methane** 320:14 **non-production** 282:19 **non-regulatory** 276:21 277:2,8,21 278:4 **non-reporting** 159:7 ,15 **non-standing** 214:9 **non-use** 72:3 130:18 **nondescript** 110:17 **NOPR** 21:7 ,15 22:10 24:4 25:1 25:14,16 27:4

28:5 29:13 31:21 32:6,12 33:21 42:7 56:19 66:1 70:8 72:5 88:6 132:8 244:10 270:5 278:8 ,17 283:2 293:11 301:11 **norm** 236:14 **normal** 41:16 80:6 **normally** 36:9 142:13 ,16 146:22 148:18 ,19 170:6 183:11 264:2 **north** 12:9 23:17 57:15 235:10 319:16 **northeast** 327:18 **northern** 32:19 235:13 ,15 **note** 60:16 132:9 166:12 297:20 **noted** 308:12 320:6 320:10 **notes** 99:21 322:19 **notice** 1:2 4:4 13:5 13:10 65:7 ,8,20 65:20,22 68:5 199:21 236:7 ,8 239:4 260:8 294:8 **notices** 294:9 **noting** 294:20 **notwithstanding** 321:8 **NOx** 313:1 **NPGA** 20:18 21:6 21:21 45:5 **NPV** 277:7 **NRDC** 56:4 **number** 15:10 17:15 27:9,16 28:6 32:16 48:3 54:4,4 55:7 59:5 63:20 73:6 76:14 82:20 98:18 114:19 128:7 144:20 158:13 161:9 162:3 174:4 174:5 199:11 202:1 ,9 206:20 207:13 ,18 208:6 209:21 210:1 216:7 226:15 227:2 229:18 234:7 ,16,18 252:15 ,16,17

259:6 261:8 262:11 ,16 264:13 264:20 265:7 ,14 265:19,19 275:4,8 278:9 291:22 296:8 299:16 302:19 303:1 ,11 306:21 315:21 319:3 323:11 ,12 323:14,19 325:7 330:15 **numbers** 39:19 41:21 44:8 53:8 88:9 94:10 98:2 101:1 ,3 123:13 125:3 ,8 127:14,19 128:11 ,11 ,16 131:11 135:6 144:14,16 151:21 152:13 ,22 153:1 ,2 153:14 157:1 ,2 170:3 198:7 201:2 206:5 ,16 209:3 ,6 212:14 214:4 224:13 231:18 ,18 235:19 258:17 ,22 259:4 271:5 ,10 272:1 275:15 286:2 294:13 299:4,5 302:18 307:15 323:12 **numerous** 45:11 46:3 **O O**  4:1 **o,m** 319:8 **o,m,p** 319:12 **object** 24:19 292:8 **observance** 21:7 **observed** 263:9 **observes** 9:11 **obtain** 316:4 **obtained** 19:11 **obtaining** 315:22 **obvious** 208:20 210:21 259:18 **obviously** 4:18 66:2 78:13 81:18 107:12 109:14 113:6 114:8 118:1 194:11 207:6 250:6 259:14 328:20 331:4 333:20,22 336:13 **occupants** 314:2

**occupied** 19:19 **occur** 68:20 **occurring** 33:9 214:16 **odd** 166:7 **ODS** 70:11 119:13 145:20 146:12 147:20 160:7 **offer** 47:19 75:6 306:5 **offered** 285:11 ,15 285:16 **offering** 288:14 **offerings** 237:16 276:5 ,10 **offers** 27:19 245:3 ,3 **office** 6:13 **Offices** 3:5 ,11 **offset** 58:21 **offsetting** 58:14 **oh** 100:6 118:19 201:21 208:3 242:21 305:16 315:17 **OHP** 186:9 196:6,6 **oil** 248:18 **Ok** 146:10 **okay** 8:3 12:4 20:13 26:2,12 34:6 59:13 ,22 60:3 ,5 62:20 63:18 ,21 67:18 ,19 69:16,22 72:22 73:12,15 74:9 75:3 76:22 79:16 85:10 94:7 96:8 98:15 101:14 102:10 105:21 109:21 111:7 112:4,5 ,20 114:17 118:2 120:3 ,18,20 121:3 123:8 124:14,15 125:9 129:3 130:21 131:4 134:2,21 137:22 139:7 152:21 153:6,10 159:16 160:1 161:14 163:8 165:17 ,18 166:9 167:16 169:1 ,3 170:15 171:20 173:10 174:3 175:20 176:22 178:8 ,10 179:8 180:14 183:9,13Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 363 183:17 185:15 ,17 187:20,21 188:20 189:18 194:10,19 195:11 ,19 196:10 202:11 203:19,21 206:2 208:3 ,9,10 212:2 214:17 216:4 219:8 222:9 222:11 ,14,15 223:7 ,13 ,13 228:18 229:2 230:13 232:2 235:6 238:1 239:20,20 243:6,7 243:15 246:3 248:9 250:1 ,10 251:4,21 253:5 ,9 254:19 255:7 257:1 ,12 258:21 260:16 261:20,22 262:2 263:5 264:17 ,19 266:4 270:15 271:18 ,20 272:4 273:12 274:9 275:22 276:17 ,18 287:18 291:2 295:13 ,15 297:7 ,15 303:5 306:7 310:13 316:14 324:18 325:10 333:15 ,16 333:19,19 334:4 335:5 **old** 148:1 210:9 216:1 230:5 **older** 243:22 **on-time** 186:10 **on/off** 30:7 58:2 **once** 8:3 161:12 **one-quarter** 329:7 **one-time** 281:3 284:3 285:7 **ones** 155:10 195:9,9 195:10 268:20 298:20 311:15 ,16 311:17 333:20 334:11 **online** 131:5 255:3 **open** 51:22 52:4 82:6 106:8 108:3 109:14 222:17 230:4 236:22 242:17 254:14 286:3 324:7 336:13 **opening** 8:11 11:21 12:2 27:8 59:16 60:9 61:1 ,2 62:17 64:1 ,3 74:1 121:10 235:11 289:11 291:10 **openings** 27:9 53:21 **operate** 29:4 33:20 37:13 41:6 50:19 58:4 71:7 80:19 138:17 149:10 211:1 220:12 223:2 244:21 282:12 **operated** 18:6 131:6 **operating** 74:4 120:7 149:12 175:6 186:10,20 187:9 188:2 206:10 208:10,12 219:9,10,13 ,14 220:1 ,10 222:6,9 223:15 ,17 ,18 224:9 225:13 231:10 240:5 ,9,13 240:21 ,22 256:6 260:18 272:18 273:4,6 283:5 ,13 283:15 ,18 **operation** 17:7 22:16 58:4 149:11 186:15 ,17 219:15 219:22 253:12 275:13 **operational** 225:2 244:20 245:6 **operations** 304:12 304:17 **operator** 148:4,11 150:7 **opinion** 215:14 **opportunities** 16:18 45:11 105:5 **opportunity** 8:11 9:5 13:6 20:6 34:5 91:19 95:3 105:4 105:8 119:2 124:12 207:12 291:17 **opposed** 35:15 97:9 120:7 146:7 154:7 188:11 228:19 262:15 266:1 272:20 303:16 **opposes** 35:13 **opposite** 78:21 205:10 **option** 40:9 46:11

89:21 133:3 135:11 143:12,13 157:11 285:13 ,17 285:19 309:21 **options** 39:9 40:7 46:6 98:17 99:4,5 99:7 117:20 277:21 288:10 290:19 333:17 ,17 **order** 52:6 76:11 117:12 184:18 ,20 244:8 245:22 281:4 283:19 284:4 **orders** 16:14 21:9 **organic** 318:21 ,22 319:13 ,19 320:4,7 320:12,14 323:6 **organization** 221:6 **organizational** 5:3 63:7 **original** 36:22 331:21 **originally** 49:9 318:20 **ouch** 32:2 **outage** 33:12 71:11 336:2 **outages** 71:9 282:12 335:12 **outcome** 218:14 **outdated** 329:16 **outdoor** 24:16 34:21 36:11 ,11 44:7 61:17 80:18 83:5 84:1 ,12 88:1 88:1 104:5 105:15 105:16,16 106:4 106:10 109:3 112:11 ,18 114:13 114:14 121:19 123:2 125:4 127:13 ,14 140:8 159:9,11 207:17 207:22 208:1 258:14 309:17 ,20 **outdoors** 222:18 **outlets** 308:18 **outline** 43:10 **outlook** 249:6 313:3 **output** 279:12 **outputs** 281:7 **outreach** 21:9 **outset** 8:12 12:3 20:14 34:7 60:16 293:15

**outside** 28:17 29:4 30:5 37:14 52:2 118:14 130:11 ,11 220:20 **outward** 54:6 **outweigh** 203:17 **ovens** 36:10,11 78:1 93:7 **overall** 55:17 156:18 158:13 168:14,15 188:3 223:19 256:15 **overbroad** 27:1 35:8 **overcharge** 310:10 **overcome** 15:2 289:18 **overestimated** 128:2 **overhead** 175:7 **overlooked** 119:14 **overnight** 249:18 **overstate** 41:9 54:17 218:1 221:13 252:10 **overstated** 51:1 245:12 246:10 **overstating** 52:19 **overview** 4:17 8:14 62:22 **overwhelmingly** 223:5 **owned** 302:14 307:3 **owners** 23:14 **ownership** 192:3 ,14 304:16 **oxygen** 51:20 70:10 71:14 118:17 119:3 ,21 146:15 **P p**  4:1 319:8 **p.m** 336:22 **pack** 28:6 **package** 311:1 ,2 **packaged** 308:15 **packed** 8:6 **packet** 60:20 62:22 63:20 74:7 **page** 8:7 17:14 22:9 31:22 32:6,12 42:7 48:8 68:13 154:17 212:16 241:12 278:7 **pallet** 70:9,11 ,16,17 71:15 72:2

**panel** 236:22 **paperwork** 88:15 **paragraph** 264:10 264:15 **parameter** 320:14 **paramount** 313:16 **parched** 93:17 **pardon** 153:7 163:2 264:14 **parent** 303:18 ,20 306:22 **parenthesis** 196:2 **part** 12:12 28:9,14 45:15 ,21 46:7 48:15 56:11 91:14 106:17 113:17 118:4 119:13 136:15 138:7 174:1 192:4,5 232:1 235:13 ,16 236:11 267:17 268:7 278:17 279:15 280:20 284:2 286:12 303:4 307:14 308:15 310:4 311:5 316:16 325:15 333:6 **partially** 113:18 **participant** 164:16 166:12,17 174:19 178:13 **participants** 10:2 10:15 44:9,22 **participate** 4:16 10:19 286:11 287:21 **particles** 315:19 316:22 317:12,12 317:14,14,16,18 320:10,11 323:5 **particular** 16:13 48:2 64:3 79:4 121:21 132:8 150:19 217:19 244:15 288:17 ,17 294:10,20 296:19 320:8 **particularly** 13:18 35:12 45:18 47:18 59:6 77:3 81:4 124:17 314:22 322:7 324:11 **particulates** 324:11 **partner** 41:8Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 364 **parts** 41:22 46:1 77:10 170:8 **party** 181:6 **pass** 162:22 **path** 299:2 331:10 **paths** 184:22 **patio** 2:11 ,12,14 5:5 5:8 7:17 12:7 17:22 26:19 77:16 77:17 80:1 81:2,5 83:19 85:1 87:2 88:2,8 104:6 105:13 106:7 ,15 110:11 ,20 111:9 111:15 ,18 117:17 122:20 123:4 192:18 197:19 **pattern** 35:22 74:15 76:21 77:4,7 ,13 77:19 79:1 86:15 86:16,17 ,17 90:19 90:21 91:1 ,2 107:13 ,14,15 ,16 108:1 110:16,17 110:18 ,18 111:11 111:14 165:22 210:14,16 224:17 224:19 225:4 **patterns** 165:20,20 197:12,13 210:8 211:16 **pause** 126:7 141:9 **pay** 212:9 335:1 **payback** 8:19 163:17 185:22 203:8 239:21 240:3 ,11 260:19 **paying** 49:5 327:12 **payroll** 178:2 **pays** 56:13 193:8 **PBP** 240:3 ,7 **PDF** 336:16 **peak** 227:8 232:11 232:12 294:15 **pellet** 23:11 36:7 **Pelpro** 23:14 **pending** 25:21 **penetrating** 212:8 **penetration** 48:16 48:19 **Pennsylvania** 23:16 **people** 29:20 33:8 34:13 46:20 55:22 69:1 ,3 71:11 ,22 79:3 92:11 112:3 126:17 154:6 170:7 ,9 171:8

172:13 174:2,8 177:16,18 191:10 191:11 ,22 194:7 201:19 202:1 209:17 212:9,16 215:9 217:20 218:7 ,8 222:12 234:14,16,20 238:10,21 295:1 311:13 315:12 318:3 321:1 ,3 ,7 327:11 ,15 329:15 330:7 ,8 332:17 334:21 **people's** 278:11 **percent** 166:7 213:12 244:3 295:17 330:12 **percentage** 38:4 49:17 ,20 53:12 115:17 127:22 128:2 141:17 152:5 158:9 187:6 203:1 ,12 214:9 268:5 283:4,7 285:11 288:13 289:4 309:8 **percentages** 152:11 154:11 **perception** 173:14 174:8 198:4 **perfect** 266:12 325:18 **perfectly** 336:16 **perform** 203:7 **performance** 19:11 74:4 98:19 99:2,5 99:12 100:2 277:17 292:18 **performed** 46:1 **performs** 217:13 244:14 **period** 8:19 11:17 13:16 24:6,8 41:22 46:13 52:5 91:21 130:3 163:17 185:22 188:6 203:8 221:8 239:21 240:3 ,12 254:14 260:19 265:18 268:15 272:19 288:11 ,22 298:10 323:1 326:7 336:11 **periods** 72:2 130:9 321:8 325:22

**permit** 211:15 223:10 **permitted** 255:7 **Perrin** 3:8 7:20,20 **person** 136:16 191:10 192:15 194:17 201:20 314:19 **person's** 324:14 **perspective** 85:18 127:21 240:1 **Peter** 5:14 23:6,7 26:4,8 184:1 214:18 ,19 269:10 291:2 **Peterson** 2:7 ,8 5:19 7:18 8:1 34:10,11 34:11 35:13 ,15 165:4 **petition** 320:9 **phase** 279:20 280:1 280:6 320:9,9 **phases** 279:20 **phenol** 319:11 **phones** 9:21 **photographs** 112:8 **photos** 92:7 110:10 **photosynthesis** 321:3 **phrase** 228:13 **physical** 37:12 48:18 135:15 285:2 **pick** 43:19 79:3 101:15 102:11 115:10 163:7 ,10 163:11 **pickup** 88:3 326:21 **picture** 106:2,12 117:6 129:2 236:11 288:15 **pictures** 78:7 81:20 **piece** 96:22 **pieces** 173:20 280:20 **piezo** 136:12,14,16 136:21 137:3 ,19 **piezos** 137:16 238:9 **pile** 174:10 **pill** 311:22 **pilot** 16:3 17:2,6 18:3 ,6,10,12,15 18:20 19:4,20 22:16,18 24:18 ,22 25:11 28:4,8,21 30:3 32:19,22

33:4 35:17 39:15 39:22 40:1 ,9,9 41:3 ,6 46:10,12 46:15 ,18 47:20 48:1 ,13 49:4,7 ,15 49:15 ,21 50:4,6,9 52:8 ,12,13 54:20 54:21 ,21 55:1 ,2 58:20 62:3 ,5 ,5 79:20 80:4,16,20 83:20 84:2,4,7 ,15 85:17 ,20 86:11 89:3 ,6,15 ,20 90:4 99:19 106:16 113:2,10,12 114:15 115:9,22 116:3 ,4,10,12,13 119:4,6,9,13 ,18 120:6,7 ,11 ,16 125:18 ,22 126:20 127:14 130:4,8,10 131:6,7 132:2,11 132:15 ,19,19,21 134:19 135:20,21 135:22 136:4,12 136:17 137:16 138:16 139:11 ,14 139:16,20,21 145:16,20 147:20 148:12,16 149:15 153:20 154:3 ,21 156:4,20,20,21 ,22 157:5 ,7 ,14 158:18 158:21 160:7 186:6,6,8,9,10,11 186:11 ,12,14,18 187:6,9,17 ,17 ,19 187:21 ,22 188:1 ,4 188:17 197:11 ,12 198:11 203:3 ,3 ,13 204:4,5 205:12,14 205:20 206:10 208:11 ,12,14,15 208:17 209:10 210:8 ,21 211:1 ,14 211:16 212:17 213:3 ,22 214:3 ,10 214:12 216:9,10 216:22 218:11 219:1 ,10,12 225:3 225:4,8,11 ,12,15 228:3 ,6,12 230:2 230:11 ,16,17 ,19 231:1 ,8,17 ,21 232:4 233:2,6,7 ,8 233:10,12,16,20

234:1 ,8,19,21 235:1 ,14 236:9,13 236:16,17 ,18 238:10,12 241:9,9 241:21 ,22 243:13 243:14,19 244:14 244:22 245:4,18 246:6,12 254:5 ,21 255:1 ,7 ,9,13 257:15 ,16,18,19 258:4,5 259:21 260:21 ,22 261:2 273:22,22 274:1 ,5 274:7 275:12,13 277:18 281:14 282:8 ,10 285:12 285:14,15 ,18 293:1 300:20 301:13 308:14 309:10 **pilots** 33:8 37:16 40:7 41:10 47:18 48:4,8,10,14,17 48:20,22 49:11 ,13 49:18 50:18 53:1 88:11 ,12 112:19 115:7 135:9 138:6 209:17 211:10 234:4,13 ,15 ,17 243:12 247:17 277:19 292:10 **ping** 88:2 **pits** 34:22 **place** 49:8 76:6 228:14 279:19 324:7 326:19 **places** 27:7 94:19 194:12 **plain** 77:18 82:22 83:4,6 **plan** 9:10 316:6,7 335:14 **plane** 286:9 **plant** 273:16 **plants** 23:15 321:3 **play** 173:19 **players** 302:4 **plea** 298:4 **please** 4:2 5:3 7:8 7:10 9:14,14,18 9:21 11:9,19 20:14 23:5 26:10 32:18 34:7 ,8 63:2 70:4 72:7 86:5 95:14 101:20Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 365 102:3 ,9,13 103:15 105:10 128:9 134:3 137:1 141:13 149:2 153:7 159:17 162:16 163:8 164:20 173:10 212:12 229:3 238:7 239:3 271:7 287:16 288:6 304:7 305:11 313:10 **pleased** 20:5 **pleasing** 29:12 **plentiful** 57:8 ,17 328:15 ,20 **PLLC** 3:5 **plumber** 194:9 **plummet** 42:12 **plus** 160:6 196:6 200:22 213:11 229:6 255:16 **PM2.5** 315:20 **point** 14:14 15:12 63:10 68:15 69:5 71:6,18 75:9 78:18 81:14 82:2 82:14 85:16 88:20 89:16 90:16 91:3 97:7 101:15 109:12 111:1 ,9 115:1 119:2 122:11 123:3 127:4 128:10 130:7 132:8 133:1 137:14 148:21 150:14 153:11 154:20 155:20 164:9 165:11 166:7 168:22 169:6,7 170:17 ,20 174:9 177:13 186:3 190:6 191:18 193:15 210:7 ,12 213:1 220:16 222:10 233:15 235:9,17 236:1 238:1 241:17 244:7 ,9,15 245:1 ,21 246:1 ,2 246:9 254:17 257:9 259:2,4 262:20 269:3 275:11 ,18 282:5 294:3 ,17 ,19 305:20 307:12 321:22 328:13

332:5 333:15 **POINT'S** 270:16 **pointed** 71:20 112:22 131:11 239:12 263:17 **pointing** 104:19 **points** 11:15 37:6 80:14 103:1 123:11 239:2,19 331:1 335:13 **poisoning** 71:1 **policy** 57:7 235:19 **poll** 173:2 **pollutants** 55:18 313:20,20 316:14 316:15 ,19 317:20 318:8 ,9,15 ,15 319:19 320:19 324:6,17 **pollution** 58:12 60:8 314:6 **Polsinelli** 3:8 ,14 **polyclic** 319:13 320:4 **pong** 88:2 **pools** 137:11 **pop** 171:5 **population** 213:13 218:3 231:17 234:14 235:4 **portal** 162:22 **portion** 35:3 39:5 199:12,13 232:17 240:12 311:4 **portions** 122:9 144:19 **position** 56:6,15 82:10 85:4 **possibility** 80:3 **possible** 47:5 100:18 **possibly** 42:22 80:20 98:8 293:16 **potential** 11:5 21:16 25:10 33:6 72:17 73:19 84:17 100:1 135:19 226:22 278:22 280:9,22 283:1 285:21 **potentially** 29:2 33:7 113:8 221:12 276:11 281:17 326:8 **pound** 325:12 **pounds** 325:5 ,7 **power** 29:4,7 33:11 33:15 ,16 71:9,10 145:4,5 ,9 186:7 ,9 187:17 ,18,19,20 187:22 188:4,7 189:1 ,13 204:1 ,3 225:12 270:16 273:16 282:12 301:2 332:16 333:5 ,19 335:12 336:2 **powered** 29:18 30:11 40:11 47:9 47:19,22 334:11 **practicable** 73:18 **practical** 131:15 ,18 131:22 **practically** 128:1 **practice** 166:13 **pre-disposition** 202:8 **pre-existing** 39:1 **pre-proposal** 21:8 **pre-unit** 283:5 **precise** 128:7 **predict** 124:20 264:13 **predicting** 265:13 271:19 **prediction** 124:6 265:15 266:3 ,9 **predominant** 120:12 127:13 ,13 136:1 139:12 140:3 ,12 142:5 ,6 142:12 150:21 151:7 ,10 **predominantly** 140:22 155:11 **prefer** 47:8 **preferences** 265:1 **preliminary** 8:10 12:21 65:21 **premature** 132:4 **premised** 12:22 **prepare** 280:3 297:6 **prepared** 61:5 **preparing** 275:19 **prescribe** 64:13 247:19 **prescription** 25:6,8 292:9 **prescriptive** 24:21 98:22 99:10 117:21 125:12 135:8 ,18,19

**presence** 19:21 113:2,10 197:10 **present** 11:4 34:5 37:19 59:14 77:18 80:1 ,2 108:1 256:6 267:4,5 272:16,17 ,18 273:3 ,11 ,11 274:12,13 279:13 294:4 295:3 **presentation** 59:19 68:17 169:4 **presented** 78:21 83:6 96:2 107:22 113:21 132:9 140:20 233:5 260:17 **presenting** 83:9 117:2 160:19 211:20 **presently** 46:18 69:6 **presents** 28:2 35:22 74:14 76:21 77:4 77:6,13 107:12,13 301:12 **preservation** 283:3 283:4,6,15 **president** 12:6 23:8 26:5 ,14 34:11 302:3 **President's** 335:13 **press** 174:17 295:13 297:16 327:7 **presumably** 77:8 **presume** 22:17 94:13 **presumed** 16:2 **presumes** 17:8 ,10 **presumption** 41:1 211:10 267:16 325:17 326:11 **presupposes** 100:11 **pretty** 64:2 74:1 ,7 76:7 77:1 83:7 103:3 104:14 239:1 263:4 267:13 269:8 317:6 321:18 ,21 323:14,16 326:1 334:21 **prevalence** 18:8 **prevalent** 211:8 ,22 330:10 **prevent** 245:5 **prevents** 55:2 288:16 333:12 **previous** 119:5 145:16 157:22 **previously** 102:19 103:1 104:21 136:3 166:18 178:16 223:16 259:3 266:10 **price** 39:17 42:3 49:1 147:2 163:20 163:21 174:22 175:2,5 176:4,7 194:14 240:5 ,20 241:4,8,17 ,19,21 248:16,16,19,20 249:4 251:6,9 252:2,15 253:4,7 262:10 266:6,18 266:20 267:2,10 270:7 ,7 ,9 296:13 296:15 301:5 309:3 310:8 ,8,9,9 310:11 ,17 311:19 312:3 326:10 **prices** 41:2,8,16,18 41:19,22 57:11 241:3 248:11 ,13 248:14,15 ,17 249:2 251:8 ,12,18 251:20 252:6,9 266:7 281:15 283:12 296:19 326:1 ,3 329:9,10 **pride** 292:18 **primarily** 60:7 62:2 79:1 120:10 124:3 124:4 176:18 ,19 201:21 257:20 314:18 327:11 **primary** 33:13 71:8 126:1 164:3 200:9 206:17 217:13 273:16 274:10 279:7 281:6 284:6 323:4 **principal** 12:7 228:2 236:9 **principals** 228:2 **prior** 243:21 ,22 **private** 171:22 **probably** 72:17 78:11 127:15 133:9 147:19 153:19 155:22 160:6 184:12,21Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 366 200:3 213:10 229:8 230:10 265:17 275:7 306:17 310:16 314:20 319:19 326:22 **problem** 14:21 17:9 17:12 19:2 72:14 84:10 87:19 94:17 138:7 153:16 174:14 217:18 218:6 225:1 237:10 244:12 299:12 311:6 317:21 325:8 335:22 **problems** 16:12 244:20 245:6,7 **procedural** 11:4 68:1 72:11 **Procedurally** 73:3 **procedure** 67:16 69:9,14,19 220:5 220:7 **procedures** 21:8 65:11 67:7 68:8 68:18 72:15 **proceed** 62:21 73:13 122:18 160:17 162:13 169:4 239:18 **proceeded** 12:14 **proceeding** 86:8 110:6 220:7 **process** 12:16 45:10 46:4 52:20 65:15 65:16,18 66:3 ,17 66:19,19,21 67:22 68:22 72:18 73:4 75:22 108:16 152:4 161:7 184:15 207:11 242:16 279:19 286:14 290:6 **produce** 80:21 301:4 **produced** 20:4 317:15 331:22 332:1 **produces** 77:21 93:19 321:13 323:5 ,5 324:6 **producing** 224:21 301:15 ,16 324:10 **product** 13:22 15:4 15:14,15 16:9 19:10,10 22:3 ,21

24:5 ,12 25:3 ,7 26:20 27:6 30:10 32:7 35:14 36:20 36:22 42:3 ,8 45:3 48:2 51:2,9 53:13 55:14 57:22 60:12 61:7 ,22 62:12 64:21 65:6,18 66:11 ,21 68:2,7 69:5 ,12 70:15 ,18 70:20,21 71:1 74:12 75:14,16,17 75:18 ,19,22 76:5 77:12 79:12 80:2 80:6,7 81:17 ,20 84:18 85:11 ,12,17 89:1 90:3 93:6,22 94:1 97:2 99:17 99:18 ,22 103:6 106:13 107:20 114:9 117:7 ,13 ,14 118:4 119:6,9 120:13 121:17 122:5 ,22 123:2 126:1 ,5 127:6 130:9 135:15 138:22 140:12 141:7 142:14,15 142:17 146:5 151:19 154:2,10 155:6,10 166:14 168:16 171:8 172:4 174:19 175:13 ,16,18,22 175:22 176:5 ,14 176:18 179:22 185:20 186:15 188:15 191:2,15 196:21 ,22 197:13 197:13 ,22 199:13 200:1 202:20 203:18 204:4,5 ,10 206:18 207:7 210:15 211:8 ,22 217:2,12,21 218:2 218:16 220:12 221:11 222:15 ,21 223:19 224:13 225:5 ,12 226:3 ,21 230:16 236:11 ,13 236:14 237:2,7 ,16 237:22 238:5 240:3 242:7 ,22 243:10,14 244:18 244:21 247:21 248:4 250:7

253:13 ,17 ,20 254:18 255:20 256:7 258:2,3 262:14,21 263:10 263:11 ,13 266:9 266:17 270:7 272:5 ,10 273:7 274:21 280:14 284:6,12 285:6,9 291:14 294:21 296:9 298:13 299:5 ,6,6,19 303:13 325:1 326:10 329:3 ,3 332:9 335:4 336:3 **production** 21:4 32:1 125:7 141:8 161:2,5 278:6,9 280:16 282:18 283:11 285:4 304:16 331:15 ,19 **productive** 291:7 **products** 1:3 3:7 4:6 5:21 11:6 12:8 ,13 13:1 ,13 ,19,21 14:4,7 ,16,18 15:6 16:8 ,18,21 17:1 ,5 17:22 18:8 ,12 19:8 ,16 21:2,22 22:3 ,6,9,15 ,18,20 23:1 ,19 24:4,13 24:16,16,17 ,17 25:4 26:21 30:19 31:1 ,17 ,20 32:9 34:17 ,20 35:1 ,9 35:11 ,14,16,18,19 35:21 36:5 ,9,15 36:18 ,19 37:1 ,3 ,5 37:8 ,20,21 38:3 ,6 38:7 44:12,16,18 45:12,14 46:9,10 49:13 51:15 59:5 61:12,13 ,17 64:8 64:11 ,11 ,14,18 65:4,11 66:4 68:9 68:19 69:8 70:7 70:12,13 71:4,5 ,6 71:11 ,18,22 72:4 72:20 75:13 ,16,20 76:6,9,11 78:3 ,20 78:22 79:2 80:10 80:15 ,17 ,18,19 81:15 82:3 ,17 ,20 83:8 ,14,17 84:1 ,3 84:12,13 ,14 85:19 87:21 88:12,17

89:5 ,10,17 92:7 ,9 93:10 94:21 ,22 96:2,4,12 97:15 97:19 98:3 ,5 ,6,18 99:3 ,9,16,20,22 100:4,10,18 101:9 101:11 104:5 ,9 105:15 ,16 106:4 107:4,7 ,9,11 109:4 112:8 113:5 113:11 ,14 114:1 115:6,8 116:2,4,9 117:8 ,11 118:3 ,12 118:15 119:3 ,7 ,12 120:17 121:14,19 121:22 122:1 ,14 125:5 127:5 ,15 ,19 128:3 133:16,19 134:11 139:22 144:11 ,22 145:19 146:11 150:19 154:1 ,7 ,8 155:11 156:11 ,14,18 158:2 159:9,11 162:6 163:22 164:1 166:4 167:16 169:10,14 169:21 170:1 174:22 175:4,11 177:6,7 ,14 179:16 179:19 180:1 ,8 192:22 193:1 196:15 197:7 198:3 ,6 199:1 ,18 201:5 ,7 202:15 ,15 207:8 208:13 210:8 ,11 ,13 ,17 211:13 215:13 ,15 216:19,19 217:1 218:3 ,7 219:3 220:9 223:5 ,11 224:12,17 ,22 226:4,7 ,11 ,13 227:22 232:4 236:18 245:16 249:3 253:11 256:2 257:14,17 261:12,16 262:7 262:12,22 263:3 263:19 264:4,13 267:2,5 ,6,11 ,13 267:17 ,20 268:19 269:18 272:15 274:4,7 ,20 275:11 277:16,17 ,19 284:16,19 288:17

288:18 289:3 290:4,17 292:1 308:7 ,9,16 309:9 309:17 ,20 314:4 315:15 324:20 325:1 ,4 328:6 332:11 ,13 ,17 333:21 335:11 **profile** 279:21 **profit** 160:21 167:5 175:7 282:21 283:5 ,13 ,18 **profitability** 32:11 281:11 283:22 **profits** 283:16 **profoundly** 35:4 **program** 11:2 55:15 56:10,11 64:8 ,9 252:22 **programmable** 129:13 131:2 **programmed** 131:1 **programs** 51:7 **progress** 162:14 **prohibiting** 53:1 **prohibitively** 58:7 **prohibits** 43:14 **project** 123:18 224:1 258:10 263:13 268:5 **projected** 251:12 257:14 270:12 **projecting** 294:19 299:8 **projection** 123:16 268:4 **projections** 251:19 262:10,11 ,18 266:6,11 ,15 ,17 ,18 280:17 **projects** 32:1 54:6 158:9 **prominently** 19:18 **prompted** 19:16 **propane** 2:9 5:11 ,13 20:18 ,19,22 21:4 21:5 ,22 22:5 ,9,10 22:12,15 ,17 ,20 24:17 80:20 84:13 134:10,12 137:9 137:10 196:19 200:15 204:13 249:2,5 251:13 311:16,17 323:13 **proper** 244:17Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 367 **properly** 29:1 57:3 86:6 **property** 33:8 323:21 324:3 **propionaldehyde** 319:11 **proportion** 134:16 266:1 **proportionately** 134:18 **proportions** 28:15 144:13 151:22 **proposal** 4:18 15:14 32:5 35:8 47:6,14 49:14,19 51:5 52:20 54:19 55:11 58:13 ,17 68:16 75:20 95:7 109:14 110:4 311:9 331:12 332:20 **proposals** 35:5 44:18 46:16 **propose** 109:13 **proposed** 1:2 4:5 12:22 13:9 14:2,7 15:9,17 ,18 16:1 16:15 17:5 ,13 18:16 19:1 20:3 21:10,15 22:4,8 22:21 ,21 24:1 ,4 24:10,14,19 25:6 25:7 ,15 32:14 33:22 34:20 35:11 35:13 ,15 ,20 37:18 39:2 51:2 58:6,15 59:3 ,8 60:9,11 ,11 62:11 64:15 65:3 65:7 ,7 ,8,21 66:1 ,9 66:13 68:3 69:6,7 73:7 74:12,20 76:16 77:15 78:14 81:16 88:6,17 91:15 96:6 97:11 99:9,17 100:19 102:20,21 103:6 104:17 107:11 110:4 113:1 ,20 117:7 119:9 132:14 135:8 136:5 156:13 173:5 221:7 244:9 263:8 277:3 ,10 278:18 279:18 281:17 284:9,21 291:13 292:8 315:15 318:2 **proposition** 28:3

**prospect** 130:10 **prospective** 55:13 **protect** 48:13 **Protection** 322:20 **proud** 23:20 292:16 **provide** 25:4,17 29:14 36:1 ,16 46:3 50:8 74:16 77:8 78:19 89:11 90:18 93:3 ,14 103:2,21 105:8 107:21 116:14 167:20 211:21 228:6 233:15 239:22 250:11 ,12 250:13 260:11 293:13 **provided** 10:7 103:2 104:7 105:14 132:12 215:5 ,6 291:20 **provides** 19:21 167:12 199:10 262:17 272:12 **providing** 13:6 25:6 58:14 62:8 259:15 290:17 **proximity** 308:18 **proxy** 276:11 **pseudo-definition** 132:10 **public** 1:1 2:2,22 4:5 ,9,14,20 6:5 10:21 11:7 21:20 56:11 65:19,19,22 66:2 68:6 277:13 **publicly** 279:21 300:14 305:21 **published** 65:3 256:1 303:9 **pull** 260:2 **pump** 231:3 **pumps** 33:12 **purchase** 43:4 49:6 58:4 174:22 175:2 175:5 240:5 257:17 312:3 329:14 **purchased** 107:7 190:7 **purchasers** 16:20 **purchases** 183:5 277:6 **purchasing** 145:3 ,5 145:8 257:19 267:9 301:2 315:3

**purely** 113:14 333:2 **purported** 25:14 54:17 293:4 **purportions** 145:1 **purpose** 4:19 10:21 11:3 13:12 36:1 36:21 74:15 77:5 77:5 ,7 ,13 ,21 82:19 85:16 92:22 93:2,3 ,5 ,20,20 117:4 135:4 163:19 185:19 239:22 243:8 248:12 262:6 272:7 276:20 278:17 ,19 **purposes** 36:18 37:2 43:8 **pursing** 75:9 **pursuant** 98:22 **push** 18:14 289:20 **put** 11:19 13:22 82:12,13 ,16 83:18 84:2,9 85:4 87:22 88:9 111:21 112:1 135:5 150:7 ,8,8,9 150:11 174:4 185:8 196:2 214:22 230:2,5 244:20 245:4 250:19 290:11 314:8 **puts** 181:1 201:22 249:12 **putting** 90:4 139:3 150:17 204:18 228:15 251:2 **puzzling** 79:18 **Q Qp**  186:5 196:6,6 **Quadrifire** 23:13 **quads** 274:10,11 **qualified** 194:6,9 250:19 **qualitative** 279:18 280:10 281:6 **qualitatively** 117:5 **quality** 56:8 ,9,12 58:1 124:13 313:18 ,19 314:1 315:10 316:1 ,2,4 316:5 ,9,12 317:22 320:19 322:18 324:5 **quantify** 279:14

**quantitative** 282:14 **quantitatively** 117:5 **que** 11:22 86:3 **quest** 30:8 **question** 40:15 80:10 83:10 91:9 94:19 95:7 104:8 113:18 114:5 119:17 120:4,14 120:19 123:4 134:5 144:4,5 ,18 145:15 147:5 151:9,12 153:9 160:1 172:14 176:12 195:13 ,14 195:19 196:2 197:4 199:9,18 204:7 208:18 ,20 208:21 219:5 232:2 233:18 254:3 255:9 259:3 259:22 284:13 288:6,15 294:3 312:8 325:19 327:6 329:20 333:1 **questionable** 216:14 **questioning** 123:12 **questionnaire** 199:16,17 **questions** 4:19 9:12 103:8 106:2 144:4 162:11 216:2 259:22 286:21 329:13 334:1 **quick** 111:8 114:22 141:11 196:1 239:1 254:2 255:8 274:17 291:4 **quicker** 238:19 **quickly** 79:7 102:18 244:7 249:22 259:2 281:10 295:15 **Quinton** 63:11 **quite** 121:18 123:19 127:3 184:21 209:13 293:21 334:18 **quote** 125:8 286:17 **quoted** 60:10 **quotes** 143:9 **quoting** 68:5 **R**

**R** 4:1 7:18 34:11 **R&D** 282:20 285:7 285:18 286:1 296:9 **Rachel** 2:12 7:16 105:12 192:17 195:4 **radiant** 26:19 80:1 87:2 88:7 **raise** 10:7 11:9,10 68:1 72:11 76:17 94:19 283:12 **raised** 14:2 15:13 102:16,22 269:19 281:8 ,10 284:13 287:13 **raises** 72:17 **raising** 67:19 **ramifications** 124:12 **random** 197:20 263:4 **range** 13:13 ,19 14:3 24:13 39:10 198:5 227:18 228:12 280:22 283:1 291:14 295:16 309:18 **ranges** 226:3 **rapidly** 41:13 128:17 129:2 218:15 ,17 **rarely** 217:11 ,18 **Rasmussen** 3:9,9 5:16,16,17 26:11 26:11 ,13 ,14,14,15 27:19 33:18 86:4 86:4 90:22 95:5 ,5 110:8 ,8 111:21 133:11 ,11 134:9,9 137:2,2 143:7 ,7 143:11 ,16,16,21 149:3 ,3 150:5 ,5 150:16,16 152:8 152:19,21 158:4,7 158:10 167:4,8,15 167:19 168:4,8,12 169:17 ,17 170:13 170:13 ,16 171:4,4 173:1 ,1 177:12,12 178:9 188:22,22 189:9,14,14 194:20,20 223:8 ,8 235:8 ,8 254:16,16 270:3 ,3 ,18,18,22Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 368 278:3 289:10,10 298:8 ,8 306:10 310:20,20 334:7 ,7 334:15 **RASMUSSESN** 278:3 **rate** 57:12 241:2 254:8 ,12 256:10 256:11 ,15 ,17 ,20 **rates** 256:5 ,8,16 269:14 **rating** 204:17 **ratio** 178:21 179:3 ,4 179:13 ,14 180:18 263:11 266:16 **rational** 89:1 **rationale** 296:16 **rationally** 89:4 **Ratt** 5:16 **raw** 299:9 **Raymond** 3:11 212:13 **Raymont** 7:18 **re-certify** 160:9 **re-characterization** 185:15 **re-emphasize** 191:18 **re-evaluate** 35:7 **reach** 54:15 214:10 **reached** 103:19 **reacting** 174:2 **reaction** 296:1 **reactions** 296:12 **read** 32:17 61:6 64:15 73:22 74:13 77:20 79:9 263:7 264:10 318:12,13 **readily** 140:7 321:20 **reading** 188:13 322:1 **reads** 93:4 **ready** 62:15 77:16 116:15 ,16 174:2 195:11 293:21 312:17 **real** 70:17 89:18 106:7 219:5 251:20 252:6,8,16 256:9,21 ,22 274:16 292:16 323:11 325:6 332:14,18 **realistic** 217:7 317:2 **reality** 53:19 136:19

247:9 **realize** 221:11 334:22 **realized** 246:1 **really** 24:11 36:4 49:2 66:8 83:13 97:4,16 107:22 108:9 111:20 112:5 113:1 115:7 117:5 136:6 147:16 150:6 159:20,22 160:18 174:9 176:12 180:20 184:8 188:18 202:1 215:12 216:1 225:1 228:19 232:17 244:8 247:5 ,16 268:8 277:22 290:22 291:12 292:20 293:8 ,10 296:7 297:7 302:7 ,7 314:1 ,3 326:3 ,3 335:3 ,17 336:9,20 **reanalysis** 259:15 **rear** 27:8 **reason** 19:12 22:17 38:4 48:7 49:22 84:15 96:13 106:15 136:21 137:19 144:9 204:11 236:3 ,3 238:10 245:5 ,13 313:11 319:10 321:15 323:4 336:14 **reasonable** 24:12 45:16 78:3 153:13 259:8 291:14 **reasonableness** 87:8 **reasonably** 15:4 329:9 **reasons** 11:19 12:18 75:7 96:15 97:5 99:13 140:3 215:16 263:16 292:3 ,11 322:2 336:18 **rebates** 277:4,4 **rebuttable** 41:1 **REC** 179:22 329:17 **recall** 204:16 235:11 268:4 **receipt** 336:15 **receive** 254:10

**received** 8:6 102:20 104:16 122:20 **receptacle** 29:6 **recognition** 321:16 **recognize** 10:9 14:20 22:7 226:22 316:12 319:6 **recognized** 10:8 55:14 96:10 315:9 317:22 332:10 **recognizes** 22:14 51:7 ,15 **recommend** 110:20 246:6 247:1 292:2 292:21 **recommending** 50:19 95:17 **recommends** 243:14 246:22 **reconcile** 171:15 **reconsider** 103:4 **record** 7:9 60:21 70:19 95:21 165:2 185:10 239:10 270:19 271:1 **records** 263:18 330:6 **recover** 52:16 240:4 **RECs** 186:13 189:22 196:15 197:6,8 198:1 ,8 199:7 ,10,12 200:8 200:18 202:14 203:7 223:19 224:14 **redesigned** 284:15 **redoing** 154:19 **reduce** 29:14 33:9 283:19 **reduced** 231:9 240:5 **reduces** 31:9 143:13 186:19 **reducing** 25:3 41:18 99:7 292:13 **reduction** 55:17 **reductions** 126:14 **refer** 28:2 73:21 152:17 321:18 **references** 77:16 216:17 **referred** 69:20 70:8 110:12 151:12 279:11 315:20 **referring** 26:8 123:20 207:3 ,21

**refine** 105:7 279:16 280:8 **refined** 207:11 **reflect** 128:22 144:7 297:22 **reflected** 322:7 **reflection** 264:22 323:16 **reflects** 257:13 ,17 267:14 **Refrigeration** 2:18 3:16 6:4 **refrigerator** 66:9 180:12 **refrigerators** 180:16 **refused** 46:2 **regard** 16:10 18:2 22:7 ,14 68:1 70:6 86:11 110:16 127:19 270:19 298:13 **regarding** 70:8 123:11 124:16,19 216:5 281:11 **region** 56:10 **register** 65:6 68:5 68:13 263:8 315:14 **regularly** 52:10 217:17 **regulate** 14:16,17 14:18 16:6 87:1 94:1 109:22 173:8 **regulated** 16:10 66:5 ,15 ,21 85:5 ,6 86:14 93:22 96:21 97:1 317:20 **regulating** 76:12 86:12 89:2,3 ,8,10 **regulation** 12:11 35:16 76:5 87:5 96:17 ,20 132:12 219:6 293:6 **regulations** 66:12 296:5 **regulators** 315:10 **regulatory** 8:14,22 12:21 13:15 14:22 20:4,17 21:11 23:2 42:15 43:9 43:12 63:1 ,19 64:6 94:3 98:12 98:16 101:12 113:15 163:18 174:3 276:19

278:4 279:7 ,10 301:9 315:21 320:18 **reignite** 50:9 **Rein** 2:16 5:10 **reiterate** 291:10 293:8 **rejected** 49:3 224:1 **relate** 175:3 **related** 14:14 22:1 106:6 218:2 285:8 **relates** 174:21 324:5 **relative** 58:3 199:14 301:16 331:3 **relatively** 22:11 35:4 37:22 130:9 285:2 294:8 298:10 **relevance** 206:6,8 216:22 220:9 **relevant** 13:2,17 14:12 16:17 17:18 17:21 20:7 83:18 83:21 117:22 322:7 **reliability** 121:2 287:8 334:2 **reliable** 154:13 218:10,18,19 282:5 **reliably** 121:2 288:14 **relied** 280:12 **relies** 18:4 **rely** 95:22 96:9 **remain** 178:3 246:13 **remaining** 208:16 **remark** 59:18 60:9 **remarkable** 70:19 **remarkably** 17:20 **remarks** 4:12 9:6 59:17 ,17 61:2,2,6 62:17 64:1 ,3 74:1 294:2 335:7 336:6 **remember** 201:1 202:12 329:18 **reminder** 19:21 **remodel** 28:14 **remodeling** 264:3 264:11 314:15 **remodels** 31:3 **remote** 18:14 29:19 30:7 ,12 131:6 149:20 150:8Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 369 211:5 245:8 **remotes** 311:9 **renders** 72:14 76:1 **Reott** 3:11 ,11 7:18 7:18 212:13 ,13 **repair** 253:5 ,15 ,18 254:3 ,8,12,21 255:9 282:7 **repairing** 253:16 **repeat** 297:9 **repeatedly** 300:18 **repeating** 297:8 **repetition** 51:3 **rephrase** 97:7 145:22 332:12 333:17 **replace** 37:16 52:11 58:8 **replaced** 253:18 **replacement** 164:4 164:5 ,12 168:15 170:8 172:7 ,16 174:21 178:13 ,21 179:3 180:4,10,21 182:14 184:11 189:5 ,8 **replaces** 137:3 **replacing** 28:4 31:7 55:14 203:2 253:15 **report** 165:7 166:21 166:22 167:5 168:2 215:1 ,6 233:14 321:19 **reported** 25:5 **reports** 280:1 **represent** 58:10 61:6,10 63:9 127:22 243:8 ,17 282:3 308:4 **representative** 45:4 141:2,16 144:6 145:16 168:3 197:1 ,3 ,17 203:5 204:1 ,3 224:22 259:4 **representatives** 45:22 **representing** 12:8 20:19 **represents** 143:17 160:20 265:21 283:7 **reproductive** 318:17 **reps** 61:9 **request** 11:18 13:11 21:15 25:15 ,17 34:4 293:11 ,15 310:2 328:2 **requested** 13:9 15:11 **requesting** 13:12 **requests** 73:6 **require** 29:4 30:6 47:11 71:7 ,14 119:3 195:3 243:1 243:19 246:12 250:19 282:7 285:17 ,21 308:20 315:11 332:14 **required** 13:4,7 14:22 17:1 20:9 21:9 43:12,15 64:19 69:3 70:11 99:15 137:9 173:20 184:17 240:4 253:11 305:2 316:5 **requirement** 19:3 24:21 99:11 ,12,16 119:15 125:12 135:8 189:13 292:9 332:10 **requirements** 39:11 57:6 88:15 195:6 253:13 281:4 284:16,17 ,19 **requires** 19:15 316:3 ,16 333:18 336:1 ,3 **research** 254:6 300:15 321:19 **researching** 308:1 **resemblance** 197:19 **reserves** 41:12 57:9 **residential** 11:6 41:19 93:7 107:17 107:20 122:2,4,16 179:5 ,21 196:16 199:17 201:16 224:6,7 252:14,14 256:2 314:2 320:20 322:8 ,17 323:19 324:5 325:2 **resilient** 335:14 **resins** 319:2 **resistant** 231:3 **resisted** 305:10 **resource** 57:17 71:8 117:16 273:17 **resources** 117:11

126:2 151:19 287:5 **respect** 13:1 15:3 ,17 55:11 76:18 210:14 218:1 **respected** 41:14 **respectfully** 25:15 34:3 **respectively** 309:16 **respects** 259:19 **respond** 19:9 216:3 218:8 291:18 **responding** 50:11 174:9 **response** 40:15 69:18 102:20 104:17 105:1 201:13 216:11 239:8 327:22 329:12 334:17 **responses** 216:8 ,12 **responsive** 45:16 **rest** 20:12 108:7 ,17 113:21 114:7 180:17 286:10 288:16 295:14 306:9 331:14 **restate** 199:6 **restrict** 39:13 **restriction** 58:20 **restrictions** 27:12 59:8 **restrooms** 101:22 163:5 **result** 13:3 16:20 17:4 20:5 31:4 32:2 166:19 256:3 287:14 309:9 313:6 **resulted** 151:20 256:14 **resulting** 32:9 185:21 277:7 **results** 140:19 178:11 ,12 196:7 220:1 230:14 231:9 233:5 241:7 244:2 253:22 260:16,20 274:9 295:16 297:20 301:12 302:8 313:5 314:17 **resume** 101:19 102:5 ,10 163:5 ,8 261:20,22 **retail** 20:21 184:10

**retailer** 44:13 164:10,11 ,13 ,14 164:16 166:8 177:10 180:21 181:12,14,15 182:19,21 183:4,5 183:11 ,19 190:13 190:17 191:2,19 193:8 ,8,12,18,19 **retailer/contractor** 192:9,19 **retailers** 31:19 45:4 61:8 164:12 165:15 177:18 192:21 ,22 193:17 307:13 **retailing** 44:21 **rethought** 278:1 **retired** 255:20 256:7 **retro-fitting** 315:4 **retrofit** 27:11 38:22 53:13 124:3 **retrofitted** 314:7 **retrofitting** 264:11 **Rett** 3:9 26:11 ,13 32:18 86:3 ,4 95:4 95:5 98:4 110:7 ,8 110:22 112:3 133:10,11 134:6,9 137:1 ,2 143:6,7 143:16 149:2,3 ,17 150:5 ,16 152:7 167:3 169:17 170:13 171:4 173:1 ,17 177:11 177:12 188:21 ,22 189:14 194:19,20 223:7 ,8 235:8 254:15 ,16 270:3 270:18 278:3 289:9,10 298:7 ,8 299:20 306:9 310:19,20 334:7 **return** 46:2 256:8 297:15 **Returning** 8:17 ,21 **reverse** 135:13 138:2 **reversed** 212:19 **review** 8:8 ,9 13:16 16:14 21:18 60:20 117:13 151:19,20 154:10 209:1 **reviewed** 99:5 285:8 **reviewing** 146:5

**revise** 105:9 171:1 239:7 **revised** 132:2 **revising** 64:20 95:20 **rewarding** 289:20 **rewrite** 188:18 **RH** 2:7 ,8 8:1 **RHP** 252:13 **RIA** 276:19 **rid** 108:13 **ride** 294:12 **ridiculous** 86:20 168:20 169:2 228:13 **right** 60:1 ,1 62:7 71:10 89:22 92:21 93:5 ,8 95:10 97:14 109:18 115:12 116:8 130:13 ,14 132:22 141:19 142:3 ,7 143:5 ,20,20 145:4 145:14 148:6 155:12 157:4,7 160:14 161:22 162:1 181:9,16,17 182:1 ,8,12,14 183:2 193:4,16 194:16,20 198:15 198:15 200:12,21 201:2 203:16 207:10 212:14 215:7 217:16 221:10 226:7 ,17 227:15 ,18 235:2 242:21 265:12 267:19 289:7 291:5 293:9 295:12 296:8 ,21 297:13 303:4,4 311:7 315:17 329:2,4 334:6 **rise** 268:11 ,11 281:15 **risk** 323:16 **Rivest** 3:4 6:19,19 192:1 ,2,2,8,13 295:20,20 297:1 ,3 297:13 307:6,6 **road** 73:10 **rob** 58:13 **Robert** 2:8 5:18 34:9 165:4 **role** 313:17Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 370 **roll** 274:5 **room** 1:8 10:10,15 10:20 33:2 57:21 71:21 75:17 79:6 81:12 92:11 102:5 104:12 162:18 211:6 215:9 222:16,21 226:17 228:5 **rooms** 19:20,20 **Rosenevist** 3:18 **Rosenquist** 6:17 ,17 167:9,10,11 ,17 ,22 168:10 180:3 ,7 ,13 180:15 181:4,10 181:15 ,18 182:3 202:12,13 203:15 203:20 312:18 ,18 **Rosenstock** 3:12 6:9 6:9 65:12,13 ,13 92:17 ,17 121:20 121:20 187:1 ,2,2 204:7 ,8 205:1 ,1 ,6 205:6 224:4,4 225:20,21 ,21 227:4,4,8,11 ,12 227:16 231:11 ,12 231:12 232:2 248:21 ,22,22 249:7 ,7 251:15 ,16 251:16,21 ,22 256:18 ,19,19 257:1 ,3 ,11 268:1 268:2,2,16,16 269:5 274:16,16 **ROSESNQUIST** 168:7 **rotate** 148:12 **rough** 73:10 294:12 **roughly** 39:20 42:4 54:4 158:14 261:11 275:6 **round** 41:6 49:12 49:14,16,18 144:11 180:8 231:16 243:3 **row** 54:14 **rows** 284:7 **RS** 244:1 **rude** 305:15 ,16,17 **rule** 12:22 13:8 ,10 14:3 15:9,17 ,18 16:1 ,12,15 17:5 17:13 18:16 19:1 20:3 21:10,12,15 24:1 ,10 25:16 33:22 34:5 35:11

39:2 42:1 45:8 57:4,6 58:6,15 59:3 ,8 60:9,11 62:11 64:20 65:16 66:2,3 ,9,13 76:3 77:15 79:19 82:1 83:18 84:16 85:16 88:6,14 97:12 100:20 106:14 109:22 117:21 123:18 133:3 173:5 201:15 249:12 263:8 275:12 291:13 307:11 ,18 313:21 318:2 **rulemaking** 1:2 4:5 8:14 12:16,17 14:12 21:8 ,17 22:1 ,2 34:21 42:13 ,14,16,18 51:2 56:16 57:17 65:9,21 68:21 72:17 ,20 76:7 95:19 96:7 ,14,14 97:11 125:12 174:15 **rulemakings** 93:8 **rules** 37:19 **run** 32:20 47:4,7 ,12 63:15 134:20 144:16 156:22 222:16 **running** 33:4 212:7 231:21 **Ryan** 2:11 5:7 73:2 91:11 ,11 129:11 129:12 **S S**  1:1 2:7 4:1 **sacrifice** 19:12 **safe** 336:20 **safely** 288:14 **safer** 55:4,8 **safety** 23:22 27:22 28:4 29:3 30:1 ,3 30:18 ,22 34:1 41:10 54:19,20,21 54:22 58:5 70:10 70:10,16,19,21 71:14 96:13 119:18 ,19,21 120:15 124:13 137:6 148:8 149:12,14 255:1

292:17 311:7 314:1 ,2 322:19 323:17 **SAIP** 185:18 **salary** 193:9 **sale** 191:6 **sales** 28:16 30:14,20 38:9 42:5 ,11 53:12,13 71:11 125:7 133:13 134:16 152:13 159:8 ,15 167:1 ,1 259:12 267:22 281:15 299:5 305:8 ,22 308:10 326:15 ,21 **sample** 196:12,14 196:21 ,22 197:1 ,3 202:14,16 203:6 240:14,15 **sampled** 256:11 **Sandy** 33:17 326:20 **sarcastic** 270:19 **sat** 305:12 **satisfied** 131:19 **satisfy** 120:15 245:16 **save** 48:15 50:22 58:5 247:8 **saving** 52:19 **savings** 25:5 ,14 33:3 39:21 40:3 40:19,21 ,22 46:16 47:2,16 50:14 51:1 ,5 52:7 ,20,21 53:9 54:18 57:16 58:15 ,17 ,20 72:1 89:21 155:1 ,16,17 158:18 159:2 203:17 240:10 245:12,19 246:10 247:2 272:13 273:2,4,7 274:10 274:11 275:7 293:4 311:22 312:1 ,3 ,21 ,22 313:6,7 **saw** 84:19 91:11 111:15 118:6 242:2 254:6 260:9 296:12 315:14 320:12 326:18 **saying** 10:17 18:1 66:18 75:6 82:8 85:4,8 86:10 89:7 90:3 115:2,5

131:17 142:1 143:17 147:9,11 154:1 168:14,17 172:1 ,3 ,6 181:21 182:5 183:1 ,3 184:9 185:1 194:21 214:8 224:5 ,5 232:13 234:2,22 236:18 237:17 242:6 293:13 304:21 305:10 328:2,2 **says** 50:13 64:7 67:6 77:12 78:19 93:5 131:6 175:14 188:6,14 199:9 221:17 231:15 ,16 263:8 310:7 **SBA** 305:7 **scale** 141:8 175:8 **scattered** 257:6 **scenario** 38:5 283:4 283:5 ,7 ,16,21 **scenarios** 226:20 280:21 282:16 283:3 **scenes** 139:5 **Schlachter** 3:13 6:1 6:1 129:20,22 130:1 ,22 **scholar** 194:7 **scope** 14:9,10,12 21:17 24:10,14 65:8 84:10,10 103:9 104:12 105:9 108:5 109:20 110:4 113:3 ,4 115:4 156:12,14 215:14 291:12 **scrap** 228:1 **screen** 33:2 **screw** 18:7 **screwdriver** 211:1 237:3 **screwed** 237:19 **search** 43:17 **Sears** 181:2 **season** 50:7 72:3 130:11 ,12 186:18 186:20 187:3 ,7 195:16 208:18 209:11 ,18 213:6 225:19 228:4,16 228:19 232:20 **seasonal** 50:21

**seasonally** 49:21 52:13 **seats** 4:2 102:10 163:9 **SEC** 279:22 **second** 17:8 75:11 84:20 113:17 126:8 135:13 148:11 176:3 258:1 264:6 278:19 280:1 281:1 ,16 308:5 **secondary** 79:5 186:16 195:21 196:6 197:9,16 199:22 200:8 ,14 201:6,14,18,21 202:2,3 224:16 225:7 ,9 229:7 230:11 323:13 ,15 **secondly** 24:9 25:9 292:16 **seconds** 138:17 219:22 **secretly** 94:11 **section** 15:21 60:14 162:5 185:18 189:7 239:21 270:15 276:19 301:10 316:15 318:12 **sections** 24:11 **secured** 162:19 **security** 102:4 162:22 **see** 4:4,10 6:15 8:5 11:8 ,12,12,14 30:17 31:6 32:8 65:1 74:2 76:15 77:14 81:11 ,14 89:4,6,18 90:9 95:12 98:12 101:7 102:7 104:11 107:15 109:5 ,18 111:10 114:8 118:16 129:3 132:13 ,18 134:8 142:7 ,8 143:6 146:8 154:5 ,5 158:13 162:9 187:10 188:15 189:15 193:15 ,17 204:16 206:21 208:3 210:12 218:20 236:5Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 371 238:16 253:8 258:18 259:9 260:17 261:14 267:1 269:3 270:4 270:11 281:21 284:8 287:12 289:13 294:18 295:21 298:6 302:17 309:11 313:4 326:16 327:4 328:3 ,6 **seeded** 104:13 **seeing** 9:12 142:12 155:8 ,21 217:21 218:3 226:2 276:6 335:15 **seek** 18:21 24:2,9 161:8 **seeking** 14:18 66:2 73:9 105:5 291:12 **seeks** 14:6 17:10,12 20:7 91:14 135:11 **seen** 92:6 208:5 236:21 265:14 266:10,16 271:3 **sees** 217:20 **segment** 98:11 133:22 308:4 **selected** 319:14 **selecting** 73:16 **self-regulating** 334:21 **sell** 31:20 34:17 39:7 46:19 55:2 134:9 137:14 161:18 169:19 171:8 172:14,15 190:8 192:22 200:7 304:10 310:11 ,22 311:1 **selling** 160:22 163:21 191:15 194:17 282:20 327:15 **sells** 165:13 ,14 191:2 303:22 304:13 **send** 10:16 271:6 **sending** 275:20 **sense** 78:3 80:7 106:14 217:7 264:9 **sensing** 147:20 **sensitive** 28:21 29:9 38:17 138:9 **sensor** 118:17 119:3 119:21 138:15 146:15 **sentence** 318:12 **sentiment** 218:22 **separate** 88:21 113:1 115:3 148:4 164:17 191:12 **separately** 159:4 233:6 **September** 326:19 **series** 96:2,12 112:6 **serious** 316:13 318:16 321:17 **seriously** 267:22 307:11 **serve** 36:18 **service** 17:15 229:14 255:21 256:7 **Services** 20:17 **servicing** 282:7 **serving** 184:6,7 **set** 27:14 28:2,19 29:15 ,22 31:8 37:11 38:2 39:18 40:2 46:20 47:4 47:13 48:9 49:6 50:1 ,4 57:2 58:16 91:18 96:4 102:10 127:20 129:10,14 129:16 147:1 ,17 163:9 198:5 201:12 217:22 230:5 255:7 280:21 281:2,7 282:16 283:8 ,21 284:2 289:1 290:13 300:11 301:19 303:16 305:4 308:2 310:8 311:11 314:8 316:15 318:5 **sets** 27:11 ,15 28:9 29:22 30:21 32:8 33:10,15 34:4 36:19 37:7 ,8,17 38:11 39:3 ,4,8 43:4 44:22 46:21 47:3 ,18 48:6,18 48:20,22 49:3 50:18 51:8 ,16 52:8 ,10 53:10,22 55:4,12,17 ,21 ,22 56:7 ,14,18 57:5 57:18 ,20 80:17 83:7 84:14 88:19 104:4,4 121:7 ,8

121:10,11 124:10 127:11 134:10 140:8 146:5 ,7 ,11 150:22 151:1 172:10 205:12 250:8 263:1 ,20 267:6 270:9 279:3 289:12,15 ,16,21 296:18 307:22 308:4,15 309:3 ,12 309:13 ,14,18,22 311:7 ,13 314:4,22 325:20 329:5 **setting** 41:22 122:16 245:8 **settings** 122:2 **settle** 102:13 **severe** 37:18 283:8 283:21 309:12 **severely** 29:14 31:1 39:12 59:4 248:5 311:20 **shape** 90:19 226:9 293:18 **share** 9:19 151:12 198:11 202:20 257:14 258:2 286:5 287:13 **shares** 122:21 126:9 128:22 143:2 151:14 156:18 **sharing** 173:15 **sharply** 39:3 57:17 **sheer** 180:10 **shell** 224:2,5 **shielding** 121:16 140:6 **shift** 55:16 265:22 276:11 **shifted** 153:20 **shipment** 88:9 94:10 100:21 ,21 101:3 ,3 141:3 ,6 144:6 153:15 158:2,13 179:7 199:14 259:12,12 262:5 ,10,11 263:18 266:5 ,11 266:16,18 276:7 280:17 294:10 **shipments** 8:21 103:20,21 104:7 115:18 124:16,17 124:20 128:21 130:16 141:4 145:8 152:5

154:22 163:17 180:4,9 199:13 202:21 207:7 238:21 262:3 ,4,6 262:14 263:10,11 263:13 266:8 ,9,19 270:12 272:11 ,21 275:3 280:18 294:14,19,21 295:5 296:12,15 297:7 298:5 ,22 **shipped** 48:2 115:22 129:18 131:1 180:16 262:7 ,12 264:21 272:10 274:20,22 **shipping** 258:17 299:5 **shock** 242:7 ,8 **shoot** 299:1 **shop** 102:1 163:3 253:4 **short** 59:21 60:9 61:5 72:10 244:19 249:6 298:10 301:12 312:11 ,11 335:22 **shortly** 160:16 **show** 52:6 119:2 153:18 237:18 242:10 271:5 **showing** 154:6 158:1 204:9 252:8 269:22 272:20 **shown** 106:11 144:7 164:3 173:3 251:12,17 252:5 253:22 256:16 261:10 278:7 **showroom** 237:11 **shows** 73:16 116:18 123:18 131:12 209:9 240:18 260:20 268:3 306:12 309:7 328:7 **shut** 46:12 129:7 131:14 137:8 138:15 ,18 150:1 326:19 **shutdown** 137:7 **shuts** 132:19 **Siap** 3:19 6:21 ,21 163:13 ,13 165:6 165:18 166:10 167:7 174:18

175:15 ,21 176:9 176:17 ,21 178:10 179:1 ,3 ,9,12,18 179:21 187:8 188:8 189:6,12 195:13 ,17 ,21 196:4,8,11 198:8 199:8 203:21 204:20 205:4 206:2,8 207:20 208:10 209:6,14 209:19,22 211:19 212:2,6 215:1 ,5 219:9 221:10,20 223:14 224:7 225:7 226:12 227:7 ,10,15 ,18 230:14 232:1 ,16 233:5 ,14 239:20 241:19 243:7 ,16 248:11 249:4,9 251:5 252:17 253:5 ,10 254:6,13 255:12,19 256:22 257:2,8,12 258:16 260:14 261:9,13 262:2,5 266:5 269:7 270:15 272:7 274:19 275:9,16 276:18 312:19 **side** 105:3 124:2 201:3 ,5 245:14 252:1 ,10,11 281:6 290:9 **sideline** 286:8 **sides** 28:11 **significant** 12:20 20:3 25:6 32:15 35:2 39:5 47:2 48:3 53:6 58:21 60:12 66:22 69:1 137:15 218:12 236:10,13 245:1 250:9,9 259:5 314:21 315:16 317:14 334:1 **significantly** 39:14 214:11 254:11 265:4 294:22 **silent** 9:21 **similar** 99:20 118:12 119:7 132:18 164:7 ,12 219:18 ,18 254:6Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 372 255:16 256:2 **similarity** 26:21 **similarly** 16:19 231:2 273:4 330:14 **simple** 18:14 19:15 176:12 **simplifying** 215:22 316:18 **simply** 17:8 ,16,17 40:1 42:9 48:17 49:7 56:21 139:2 148:7 153:14 159:6 244:20 285:19 292:7 318:2 **simulate** 78:22 **simulates** 35:21 74:14 76:20 77:2 110:19 **single** 13:21 16:9 53:16 54:5 ,9 65:1 75:14 99:16 149:6 160:9 200:11 ,17 200:21 204:10 210:6 214:12 266:1 268:9,12 269:1 306:11 **single-family** 269:20 271:5 **sink** 86:19 **sinks** 137:10 **sit** 2:21 6:11 45:11 101:8 295:19 **site** 44:5 64:12 65:2 65:5 208:21 273:15 **sits** 38:12 **sitting** 174:10 217:13 221:1 267:7 **situation** 188:3 192:9 223:1 295:7 324:8 332:18 336:2 **situations** 292:15 333:12 **six** 192:20 **size** 22:13 27:13 28:7 32:14 39:12 47:10 167:13 178:5 ,6 300:11 305:6 306:14 **sizes** 27:6,12,18 29:15 ,22 39:8 **skewed** 134:12,15 218:9

**skillsets** 184:17 **skip** 249:19,21 272:19 **skipped** 66:6 **skirt** 271:19 **Skolnick** 5:20,20,20 61:4 295:19 **slide** 11:13 63:20 64:6 73:16 74:6,9 78:7 81:14,21 92:6 98:13 ,15 107:9 116:18 118:6 119:5 123:12 132:10,18 140:17 141:14,15 143:8 144:5 ,7 ,10 144:14 145:7 ,16 146:9 154:20 155:8 ,21 156:6,7 157:22 160:15 162:10,11 165:7 174:20 185:19 187:8 195:15 208:5 212:13 221:17 242:2 249:1 ,19 251:5 252:18 260:13 261:10 268:3 270:13 276:18 ,20 **slides** 11:8 ,10 62:18 64:3 118:2,3 151:11 154:19 156:8 195:18 206:11 240:15 279:1 282:13 295:14 306:9 **slow** 265:11 313:12 **small** 17:14 28:15 31:12,17 32:16 34:3 ,18 35:4 42:14,16,18,22 43:3 ,5 ,13 ,19,21 44:6 45:1 ,2,7 61:9 62:13 80:19 128:1 128:7 171:5 173:18 177:22 197:16 199:12 224:15 232:17 275:8 ,9 279:2 281:19 293:5 295:1 300:7 ,9,10 300:10,13 ,15 ,15 300:17 301:2,7 304:12 305:3 ,3 307:2,19 308:2 311:4 317:16

325:5 **smaller** 29:22 53:8 53:9 289:15 307:1 **smell** 324:15 ,15 **smoke** 324:15 **smokestack** 322:8 **smoldering** 324:8 **snail** 275:20 **snow** 322:5 ,5 ,11 ,13 322:13 **so-called** 40:22 46:11 **SO2** 313:1 **social** 265:2 **society** 335:15 **software** 10:7 **sold** 44:12,18,20,21 48:16 79:1 134:18 147:15 166:7 177:6 191:8 ,9 258:12 308:15 311:4 335:11 **sole** 127:10 **solely** 16:2 126:14 **solid** 35:22 37:9 74:14 76:21 77:2 315:7 ,7 323:2 **solution** 27:15 30:1 30:4 39:12 50:21 247:22 **solutions** 2:2 4:10 27:20,21 29:14 **somebody** 129:5 172:16 311:19 **somewhat** 331:6 **sophisticated** 298:12,16 **sorry** 63:14 67:15 70:1 89:14 96:22 100:6 107:16 119:11 127:8 ,11 129:22 133:7 136:8 140:14,16 148:14 152:15 164:22 165:12 179:18 204:13 207:2,22 209:12 215:3 243:4 261:7 261:11 271:17 274:17 288:5 299:14 308:5 **sort** 88:20 90:2,4 92:11 106:8 122:3 203:6 303:13 313:12 326:8 331:13

**sought** 14:17 15:1 **sounds** 91:18 **source** 15:7 33:11 33:13 68:11 201:18 202:3 214:21 215:5 ,6 230:8 256:13 301:5 332:16 336:4 **sourced** 244:1 **sources** 57:12,15 166:17 206:17 239:14 248:17 **sourcing** 281:21 301:8 **south** 40:5 56:12 235:12 **southeast** 170:10 **southern** 235:16 **space** 36:2,2 74:16 74:16 77:8 ,9 78:19 140:4,9 146:4 186:17 199:4 225:18 228:4,8,14,15 230:20 231:3 ,20 232:8 ,19 308:13 **spark** 137:11 **sparks** 58:3 **sparse** 203:6 276:7 **speak** 4:18 9:13 ,15 9:18 10:8 ,9 14:1 20:1 35:6 41:4 192:1 **speaking** 59:15 66:16 81:21 105:3 107:10 180:7 183:18 **special** 63:17 295:7 298:4 **specialty** 27:19 34:18 45:3 184:16 **specific** 15:10 16:12 24:16 46:13 67:15 77:16 90:16,19 105:6 119:17 153:15 168:9 169:8 ,18 170:7 ,22 171:2 172:9,10 173:7 227:21 253:12 292:1 303:1 **specifically** 18:5 68:1 ,4 105:19 122:10 126:19 128:20 131:21

156:8 159:11 167:17 281:19 285:14 305:3 315:11 ,18 319:3 319:22 **specificity** 62:19 134:3 **specifics** 199:7 324:22 **specified** 105:15 **specify** 315:11 **spectrum** 297:5 **spelled** 64:16 **spend** 69:2 238:11 **spends** 90:20 **spike** 71:11 335:5 **spill** 324:16 **spinning** 112:2 **split** 126:5 **spoke** 289:11 **spoken** 305:13 **Sporidis** 3:14 **sport** 311:1 **spot** 27:18 **spreadsheet** 277:1 **spreadsheets** 280:4 **stack** 331:5 **staff** 290:2 **staggering** 213:10 **stakeholder** 66:1 **stakeholders** 68:17 **stand** 7:8 60:1 **standard** 13:5 22:5 22:8 ,22 24:20 27:20 30:3 32:2 32:15 60:12 65:1 67:8 ,15 ,17 69:20 69:21 ,21 70:12,14 87:17 88:18 97:15 97:18 ,20,21 ,22 98:7 ,19,20,22 99:1 ,3 ,3 ,15 115:4 115:7 ,16 116:7 117:22 135:9,19 136:6 142:19 229:13 240:11 244:10 257:20 258:9,11 262:9 266:7 ,20 267:3 272:9 274:2,4,6,8 276:22 277:3 ,10 278:19,21 279:5 279:18 280:10 281:5 ,17 284:5 ,9 284:17 ,21 289:2Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 373 292:8 300:20,20 301:13 303:14 305:6 313:18 **standardized** 126:15 **standards** 1:3 4:6 11:3 ,6 64:14,21 65:10 67:7 ,9 68:9 68:18 73:16,20 76:2 88:17 95:20 96:3 ,13 ,18 98:18 99:6,6 100:2 113:1 ,20,21 115:14,16 132:2 142:14 223:9 245:16 252:22 257:18 272:16,22 273:5 ,8,22 283:10 283:17 ,20 300:11 310:1 312:9 315:15 316:1 ,2,5 **standby** 15:20 24:22 25:11 64:22 71:3 99:7 117:21 142:16 143:19 188:9,10,16 293:1 **standing** 18:12 24:22 28:8 ,21 32:22 37:16 40:8 49:15 ,21 50:6 53:1 54:20 62:3 ,5 62:5 70:17 83:3 83:20 84:2,4,7 ,15 85:17 ,20 86:11 88:11 ,12 89:20 90:3 99:18 112:18 113:2 114:15 115:7 ,8 116:4,10 119:6,18 120:16 125:18 127:14 130:10 132:11 ,21 135:20 136:4,12 136:17 137:16 138:5 ,15 139:13 139:16,21 145:16 153:20 154:3 186:6,8,11 ,12,18 187:17 203:2 204:4 205:12 208:12,14,17 209:10 212:17 230:16 231:1 ,8,17 233:2,6,7 ,10,12 233:16,20 234:1 ,3 234:8 ,13 ,15 ,17 ,19 234:21 235:1 ,14 236:15 ,17 ,18

241:9,20 243:13 243:18 244:14,21 245:4,18 246:6 254:4 257:15 ,18 258:4 259:21 260:21 273:21 274:5 281:14 282:8 ,10 285:12 285:14,15 ,18 292:10 301:13 308:13 309:10 **Stanonik** 3:15 6:3 ,3 67:20,21 ,21 68:12 68:15 78:13 90:15 90:15 91:2 95:16 95:16 118:21 ,22 118:22 120:3 ,3 ,18 127:17 ,18,18 128:6 132:6,7 ,7 133:4 144:3 ,3 145:2,10,14 146:10,16 187:13 187:14,14 188:12 188:12 216:15 ,16 221:16,16,21 227:20,20 293:20 294:1 ,7 332:2,3 333:14,14 **Stanonik's** 70:6 **Star** 41:14 **stars** 319:18 **start** 4:11 ,22 5:1 8:4 26:22 53:18 75:6 85:4 97:22 102:9 102:15 103:10 117:3 135:5 163:6 217:22 226:12 228:1 231:19 252:14,15 266:14 313:12,13 **started** 42:20 103:15 104:13 136:10 238:13 294:15 ,17 **starting** 12:19 54:2 66:8 123:2,3 155:13 196:15 224:14,14 258:12 262:2 **starts** 53:2,6,11 ,14 53:15 54:1 ,3 ,7 ,9 54:12 113:22 232:8 262:15 ,15 262:21 263:3 ,9,12 263:12,21 264:5 ,8 264:13 265:15 ,16

266:2,3 ,11 269:2 **Stas** 6:12,12 85:15 85:15 86:11 89:16 89:16 90:1 92:6 92:15 **StatCan** 215:1 ,5 **state** 56:3 124:21 193:3 239:15 315:10,21 316:4,6 316:8 317:21 **stated** 68:4 111:2 125:11 223:16 266:9 **statement** 67:5 233:17 **statements** 8:12 11:21 12:2,3 121:10 **states** 16:14 20:21 24:8 32:7 ,19 34:13 35:20 41:16 57:9,14 86:9 87:10 192:21 195:5 213:12 235:10,13 ,16,20 236:8 250:18 251:1 287:3 307:20 313:19 315:20 320:20 **static** 275:19 **statistical** 269:7 **statistics** 114:14 159:6,7 213:4,9 **statute** 64:12 72:21 75:15 87:16 **statutory** 35:19 64:14,18 72:16 **stay** 33:18 52:4 286:10 290:17 **steady** 187:9 **Steel** 63:9 125:2 138:1 149:16 172:19 213:16 220:15 247:4 286:7 **stems** 301:1 **step** 45:10 66:3 107:5 177:8 190:20 192:10,13 192:14 196:3 248:6 291:5 293:9 313:9 **stepped** 68:22 **stepping** 312:19 **steps** 66:14 190:19 194:15 ,15 287:22

**Steve** 5:20 6:9 61:3 61:4 65:12,13 92:16,17 121:20 122:11 187:1 ,2 204:7 205:1 ,6 224:4 225:20,21 227:4,12 231:11 231:12 248:21 ,22 249:7 251:15 ,16 251:21 256:18 ,19 268:1 ,2,16 269:5 274:16 **Steve's** 269:20 **Steven** 3:12 **sticking** 137:20 **stock** 179:5 180:11 180:17 234:3 271:19 **stone** 85:13 91:19 170:9 **stop** 42:10 239:3 **stopping** 101:15 **stops** 198:16 **storms** 33:14 326:21 **story** 321:18 **stove** 138:12 145:17 146:14 157:13 205:17 **stoves** 23:12 36:8 78:1 83:3 ,4,12 93:6 94:16 104:2 104:3 118:9,13 123:21 ,22 124:3 140:2,5 142:10 147:14,18 150:20 151:5 205:12 263:22 264:1 304:14,16 309:16 314:12 330:16 **straight** 252:21 269:17 270:11 ,12 **streamline** 66:20 **streamlined** 66:10 **stressed** 308:3 **strictly** 177:16 199:9 220:9 **strikes** 31:21 **strong** 263:9 **strongly** 14:15 48:22 227:22 **structural** 323:2,9 323:10 **structures** 169:22 **struggled** 78:5 **struggling** 315:22

**studied** 174:14 **studies** 186:13 216:17 ,21 256:1 258:18 329:17 335:16 **study** 208:14,21 ,22 209:9,15 210:10 213:1 ,8 214:20,21 215:2 225:16 226:5 ,6,15 228:21 235:9 236:5 ,5 **studying** 198:11 **stuff** 92:18 162:19 297:8 ,11 305:8 310:11 331:22 **stumped** 81:3 **style** 118:12 120:13 **styles** 118:10 211:8 **styrene** 319:12 **sub** 163:3 **sub-category** 121:21 **sub-groups** 278:20 279:2 **sub-micron** 317:16 **sub-microns** 317:17 **subgroup** 307:22 **subgroups** 298:1 300:5 **subject** 23:1 38:19 88:14,15 116:6,12 218:5 **subjected** 67:9 **subjects** 298:7 **submission** 25:20 220:6 **submit** 23:2 239:10 271:7 ,9 **submitted** 27:2 104:21 220:6,7 **Subsection** 15:21 **subsequently** 103:22 104:6 **subset** 107:9 **subsets** 107:10 **subsidiaries** 303:17 304:11 305:7 **subsidiary** 307:1 **substantial** 32:16 52:6 217:9 218:3 329:21 **substantially** 13:3 25:5 ,13 293:3 **substantive** 23:3 **substitutes** 325:18Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 374 **subtracted** 235:3 **subtracting** 233:3 **Subway** 163:3 **success** 50:16 **Sue** 3:17 6:7 70:4 223:3 ,12 **suffer** 62:14 138:14 **suffice** 20:2 **sufficient** 19:13 30:14 **sufficiently** 9:8 120:1 **suggest** 50:3 82:5 100:16 133:2,5 ,8 150:1 172:2 214:14 228:11 271:15 277:13 295:2,13 **suggested** 93:13 235:14 **suggesting** 326:9 **suggestion** 75:6 96:15 170:21 **suggestions** 81:14 82:13 ,20 83:16 105:8 108:3 113:7 **suggests** 16:19 28:5 91:3 209:2,2 221:22 244:10 301:13 305:1 327:8 **suitable** 40:12 53:20 **suited** 111:20 151:6 282:11 **sum** 176:3 240:8 ,20 240:22 **summaries** 199:20 **summary** 8:11 12:2 59:17 ,18 186:1 273:12 **summer** 45:21 216:9,10 229:9 231:21 **sun** 77:22 **supplant** 120:2 **supplied** 22:12 **suppliers** 131:16 247:13 **supply** 41:17 137:8 328:18 332:14 333:19 **support** 21:11 ,12 123:19 125:3 187:4 205:7 226:1 231:16 239:5 257:5 303:10 326:13

**supported** 50:15 51:12 **supporting** 260:12 **supposed** 10:14 **supposedly** 41:7 **supposing** 152:21 **sure** 10:5 26:4 32:17 72:8 85:22 86:13 93:10 101:20 120:4 155:22 160:6 162:17 167:7 172:22 175:15 177:3 207:20 213:9 216:18 295:10 297:17 299:8 330:19 **Surely** 41:11 **surprise** 106:7 **surprised** 229:10,11 267:1 **survey** 179:6,12,22 196:17 209:8 216:8 218:5 ,6,10 237:22 256:13 328:11 **surveyed** 221:6 **suspect** 53:5 86:5 **suspend** 21:20 **sustain** 54:16 **SW** 1:6 **swallow** 311:22 **swap** 284:22 **swearing** 241:15 **sweeping** 16:8 **sweeps** 75:20 **sweet** 27:17 **switch** 150:8 211:4 243:13 245:7 246:11 ,17 247:15 248:7 255:4 274:6 277:20 309:6,9 326:11 331:4 **switched** 15:22 260:22 **switches** 311:8 **switching** 31:9 39:14 55:6 59:1 150:10 243:19 326:6,9 327:7 328:5 ,11 330:1 334:17 **swoop** 14:18 **symmetric** 227:10 **system** 28:1 30:3 ,11 38:11 40:11 44:13 44:15 ,19 47:11 55:3 119:4,14 120:1 ,5 ,6,15 125:17 134:13 136:15 ,17 ,20 138:6,16 141:17 142:5 ,6 145:20 147:3 149:1 ,11 ,14 149:18 ,21 150:4 150:10 160:7 177:6 185:21 186:6,11 ,17 187:16,18,19,21 188:15 203:13 204:1 233:2,4 242:5 ,6,11 243:10 243:18 244:17 246:17 ,19 247:8 247:10,18,22 253:14,17 255:5 260:19 301:8 311:12 321:11 336:1 **systems** 3:17 6:8 24:18 27:22 28:21 29:16,19 30:18 47:9 50:5 87:4 120:8 125:15 ,22 131:15 133:14 134:7 136:3 ,6,19 137:6 139:12 146:12,21 147:12 150:6 155:9 238:10 270:10 281:12,22 282:3 ,6 287:13 288:14 289:12,14 298:17 308:13 309:2,7 ,11 309:22 311:16 334:3 ,10 **T t**  3:11 306:21 **table** 31:22 106:13 166:16 178:12,16 204:3 212:15 226:1 230:15 ,17 231:15 ,18 241:8 260:20 261:5 284:8 295:19 309:7 **tables** 84:1 252:5 261:6 **tacking** 72:12 **tackle** 117:12 **tails** 335:5

**take** 4:2 8:15 ,20 9:1 11:21 17:6 44:15 63:2,2 75:12 78:11 79:5 90:13 98:11 101:16,16 101:17 105:4 119:1 137:17 141:14 144:20 152:22 163:9 194:2,8 210:2 214:8 222:21 228:20 233:20,22 237:6 242:7 254:21 258:13 ,16 258:19 261:17 269:8 273:5 283:10,17 ,20 288:11 297:16 306:7 307:8 308:13 311:10 312:2,21 321:4 327:14 335:7 **taken** 31:6 110:21 169:7 170:20 229:11 230:12 233:12 **takes** 42:1 51:19 189:10 190:9 211:4 225:18 231:4,6 249:15 261:1 ,3 ,15 266:14 272:11 279:19 **talk** 65:14 92:19 94:8 ,9,10 101:13 107:5 108:12 115:18 ,19 124:11 154:22 158:12 196:12 217:19 248:2 263:6 306:5 **talked** 212:22 260:14 292:11 ,15 306:4 **talker** 140:16 **talking** 78:9 90:17 103:10 106:21 107:17 117:10 118:7 120:6 131:10 136:10 142:9 151:10 154:6 158:6 159:20 160:6 161:3 172:11 181:10,13 183:22 190:15 199:19 200:4 201:7 217:12 224:10,17

225:1 226:5 232:9 247:7 267:5 **talks** 226:1 270:5 **tanks** 22:13 80:20 **target** 94:4 **targeted** 280:2 **targets** 94:5 277:5 **task** 244:2,2 **tax** 167:1 ,2 277:4,5 **team** 152:18 205:5 206:13 **tear** 138:20 **tearing** 135:14 **tech** 142:8 143:9,12 **technical** 2:19 13:2 14:11 15:8 ,13 20:17 21:11 46:6 123:18 132:3 187:4 205:7 225:22 231:16 239:5 244:12 257:5 303:10 **technician** 185:21 250:19 **technologies** 5:15 23:9 26:6 143:2 287:14 **technology** 8:15 10:12 85:20 89:20 99:5 116:17 117:20,22 126:12 126:13 127:5 131:10,13 132:1 ,4 133:17 ,18 135:12 143:10,18 157:11 212:7 247:6 248:5 248:8 275:12,19 276:12 280:15 282:4 287:9 288:18 289:2,7 290:18 **telephone** 10:6 46:3 **tell** 71:10 83:13 85:9 86:5 ,10,13 87:15 91:16 92:2 94:5 ,18 95:1 101:9 130:5 152:9 197:7 ,18 213:21 237:7 246:15 249:18 259:16 290:2 324:22 **telling** 85:5 ,8 136:20 148:1 169:11 **tells** 88:4 188:16Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 375 **temper** 335:2 **temperature** 220:20 229:15 324:10 **temperatures** 29:9 **tend** 141:8 281:12 282:7 **tendency** 16:3 **tends** 177:15 **tenth** 330:11 **term** 113:5 186:15 203:22 225:7 ,10 249:6 312:11 ,11 312:12 **termination** 66:12 **terminology** 126:16 181:3 **terms** 55:17 58:18 64:17 72:4 83:9 85:19 103:9 108:5 113:15 ,19 114:6,6 119:14,19 122:5 127:2 129:6 130:16 132:8 145:6 155:14,16 202:20 226:8 237:13 247:1 267:1 ,21 269:19 315:18 323:16 **test** 65:11 67:7 ,7 ,16 68:8 ,18 69:8 ,14 69:19 76:8 220:5 220:7 320:13 **tested** 70:13 303:13 **testify** 56:19 **testimony** 224:10 **testing** 30:15 99:14 205:18 284:14 285:8 ,18 286:1 **text** 272:20 **thank** 4:20 7:13 20:11 23:4,5 25:22 26:2,7 34:5 34:6 59:11 60:15 62:14,15 63:14,22 66:22 67:2,3 68:14 69:22 72:5 72:6,21 ,22 73:12 73:15 95:13 104:22 105:20 110:21 ,22 112:4 120:20 121:3 ,4 122:17 124:14 125:9 127:16 128:5 129:3 131:4 134:22 137:22 139:7 143:21 147:7 159:16

162:8 166:9 168:12 171:19,20 176:22 178:9 185:15 188:20 202:11 212:20 213:15 231:13 235:6 243:6 250:15 ,16 251:21 252:11 257:11 261:16 268:4 270:1 ,2 271:9 275:22 278:2,12 286:11 287:16,18 288:3 291:1 ,5 293:7 294:5 295:9 297:14,19 300:1 ,4 303:5 ,7 307:21 310:13 312:5 324:17 ,18 325:14 336:5 **thanks** 8:3 11:1 26:9 67:19 90:14 105:21 106:1 108:19 128:8 134:2 147:21 163:10 165:18 166:10 185:16 205:8 217:3 239:19,20 251:5 255:19 270:21 293:19 336:8 **theme** 215:20 **Theodore** 3:9 **therm** 41:20 **thermal** 148:15 **thermocouple** 149:5 149:22 **thermopile** 149:8 ,20 **thermostat** 220:11 226:16 232:13 **thermostatically** 222:2 223:6 **thermostats** 223:10 **thing** 62:10 79:18 80:5 87:16 127:6 157:15 182:3 190:15 193:15 199:5 249:18 264:5 ,6 268:17 297:19 298:22 313:16 321:22 322:16 323:5 324:4 329:2,22 330:1 ,3 331:8 334:17 335:20 **things** 66:3 ,8,10

74:3 80:7 83:16 87:8 ,10,13 92:13 102:16 103:12,19 104:18 108:8 110:10 111:13 113:1 129:10 130:20 141:1 169:20 176:11 190:7 228:11 ,20 229:9 239:2 264:2 275:4 282:19 284:15 285:7 288:9 291:11 299:15 311:2 316:17 ,18 319:15 330:4 335:19 **think** 10:13 11:21 42:21 64:2 65:14 66:7 ,16,22 67:5 68:22 72:3 ,14,18 73:13 ,22 74:9 75:12 76:7 ,13 78:8 81:11 ,12 82:2,4,7 ,9,15 ,22 83:8 ,13 85:5 ,18 87:12,13 ,16 88:5 89:1 ,8,9,14,16 90:1 ,6 92:10,11 97:17 98:1 ,13 101:14 103:2 104:10,13 ,20 105:1 106:3 ,15 107:2 108:6,9,10 113:17 114:19 116:16,21 118:19 119:14 121:8 123:4,15 124:21 125:6 126:7 128:1 128:20 132:12 133:5 ,7 134:6,14 136:14,18 145:22 146:9 149:18 150:3 ,14 154:9 155:15 ,20 159:3 159:21 160:12 169:6 170:9,19 171:22 173:13 174:2,7 ,8 182:20 184:2,12,19,22 185:1 ,6,11 187:15 190:14,16 193:5 195:12 201:2 205:10 207:17 208:2 215:8 ,19 218:12 229:5 234:13 238:16

244:11 250:22 259:6 267:10,10 267:22 268:10 269:9,16,18,19 271:14 275:10 277:22 286:15 ,16 287:5 ,9 290:22 291:7 ,14,19 292:4 293:14,21 294:20 295:7 297:3 302:5 302:7 ,21 304:17 304:19,20,21 ,22 306:4,22 307:4 323:7 325:15 326:22 327:17 328:14 329:1 ,5 ,19 329:21 331:2,11 331:18 332:6,10 332:19,21 333:21 333:22 336:1 **thinking** 93:10 327:9 **thinks** 314:13 **third** 19:1 201:16 201:17 ,17 230:20 258:3 302:5 325:8 **thirdly** 24:19 **Thomas** 131:5 243:11 255:3 **thought** 91:19 109:20 111:12,14 173:10 231:14 285:21 329:13 **thousand** 39:9 299:18 **thousands** 42:22 43:5 45:7 **three** 24:11 40:20 51:19 57:2 111:22 125:16 133:12 166:4,4 194:15 208:13 ,16 215:20 216:8 219:21 222:3 ,5 265:14 279:20 284:7 296:2 299:15 328:17 **three-step** 184:15 **threshold** 24:5 **threw** 111:9 **thrown** 106:8 **thumb** 201:15 **tied** 262:21 **Tim** 3:8 7:20,22 330:20,21 334:17 **time** 9:13 ,14,18,19

11:20 13:16 18:6 21:13 23:4 26:3 42:1 46:11 ,13 ,15 57:10 65:17 66:1 68:16 69:2 86:20 90:20 95:21 102:18 110:3 124:21 130:2,3 ,17 132:5 133:12 163:11 164:18 185:3 205:22 206:6 208:5 211:3 219:13 ,17 ,20 221:8 ,18,19 222:1 231:21 232:11 240:4 247:19 252:6 260:2 265:18 268:15 272:19 274:18 275:17 276:5 ,10 276:12 285:1 288:21 ,22 289:13 298:6,11 299:15 310:2 323:1 326:7 328:8 ,13 **timeline** 131:14,20 **timer** 150:9 **times** 40:20,21 45:19 51:20 57:2 66:5 100:3 ,9 130:3 139:10 196:6,6 220:8 238:9 317:8 ,11 320:1 ,3 ,4,10,15 323:2,10,15 **timing** 131:3 **Timothy** 2:6 **tiny** 53:11 **tired** 58:11 316:18 **to--** 313:9 **today** 4:6,21 9:9 10:12 11:8 12:19 12:20 25:22 35:6 41:2 56:20 64:9 65:9 96:3 104:19 115:18 116:10 131:21 132:1 184:20 213:22 214:5 ,11 ,16 219:4 239:12 247:7 248:8 250:13 275:14 277:19 280:13 281:9 282:9 284:21 286:12 291:7 ,11Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 376 291:20 292:11 293:9 305:17 308:10 314:21 336:21 **today's** 11:3 20:12 121:1 **token** 290:11 **told** 30:13 45:21 91:16 **tolerant** 138:19 **toluene** 319:12 **tool** 254:18 279:8 **tooling** 30:15 284:18 285:1 **top** 178:12 201:2 230:15 240:18 257:9 306:21 **topic** 37:4 42:13 **topics** 215:20 **total** 144:10,14 176:3 200:11 ,16 200:19 213:12 240:2,8,12,19 265:21 273:9 284:8 285:10 300:7 **totally** 123:17 128:12 222:13 332:7 **touch** 18:16 **touched** 178:11 281:9 **toxic** 318:14 319:19 320:8 331:20 **toxins** 318:15 **toy** 168:5 **tracking** 269:14 **trade** 12:8 20:18 43:21 117:16 302:3 **traditional** 314:13 **traditionally** 149:19 **trailing** 154:9 **transcript** 9:16 **transformer** 28:7 **transgressions** 86:5 **transition** 51:13 55:22 56:7 ,17 309:21 **transitione** 309:2 **transmission** 321:11 **traveled** 35:5 **traveling** 336:19 **travels** 33:1 **treat** 21:15 35:8 **treated** 13:10 25:16

**treating** 293:11 **treats** 75:22 **trees** 58:5 **tremendous** 320:21 **trend** 98:5 131:12 154:5 ,6 259:5 260:7 ,8 265:12 268:10 271:4,6 327:17 **trends** 49:10 218:20 251:6,9 253:8 259:8 260:9 288:12 308:10 330:18 **triangle** 227:9 **triangular** 226:13 227:6,7 **tried** 45:19 47:19 188:10 217:6 237:18 **trigger** 57:5 **trivial** 58:21 **trouble** 204:15 **troubling** 87:14 **true** 114:16 202:7 205:18 245:17 321:4 329:15 **truly** 201:17 **truth** 173:16 **try** 9:18 10:6 53:15 78:9 100:16 120:19 128:6 171:18 194:13 290:4,15 298:21 **trying** 10:4 52:17 84:11 92:12,14 106:4,17 133:8 139:15 145:7 148:14,22 153:12 154:4 156:9 170:8 171:13 173:10 190:21 203:1 ,5 ,12 221:4 247:10,12 260:8 286:17 ,18 294:18 306:1 333:12 **TSD** 31:6 77:14,15 88:9 208:7 212:15 212:15 301:11 304:7 **TSL1** 260:21 **tube** 112:2 **turn** 9:21 15:16 17:2 18:15 39:20 47:3 52:12 53:9 63:6 67:2 79:15

131:7 136:18 ,22 164:20 190:1 212:17 213:3 ,22 214:2,12 216:10 220:18 ,18 222:19 234:15 238:11 265:1 **turned** 19:22 72:8 187:7 208:15 209:9,17 216:9 277:18 ,19 **turning** 5:2 10:1 55:3 208:17 211:5 **turnout** 4:15 **turns** 317:19 **twice** 305:13 **Twinkie** 76:3 168:5 **two** 16:11 31:14 44:10 75:7 80:7 98:17 99:4 113:1 118:18 121:6 130:14 134:14 135:10 140:22 141:18 142:5 144:4,14 160:15 164:3 173:18 174:18 175:17 ,22 176:6 177:8 182:5 182:11 183:18 ,20 184:8 ,15 189:13 190:19 191:10,11 191:12,13 ,14 206:17 212:18 216:13 218:13 ,19 219:11 238:16 244:11 261:5 265:7 279:1 280:19 283:2 284:6 302:2,7 304:9 306:11 314:3 ,6,18 316:19 320:10,18 322:2 **two-step** 44:14 177:5 ,15 184:9 **two-steps** 191:1 **type** 68:7 79:4 80:6 87:3 ,7 90:18 92:9 106:12 110:12,14 110:18 111:4 112:2 122:5 126:6 128:19 132:3 136:14 143:9 145:17 150:10,21 151:6,7 ,10,18 152:6 169:13 170:7 ,11 176:17

200:7 204:4 206:20 210:14 223:11 224:13 230:16 241:20 246:12,13 258:2,3 259:14 276:13 **types** 17:21 37:7 ,19 37:21 39:7 44:10 64:11 89:19 92:7 96:1 ,11 107:4 111:20,22 113:14 114:1 119:11 ,11 123:15 125:14 126:18 133:16 134:14 144:22 150:18 151:16 154:21 155:9 156:20 157:5 162:6 169:9,21 ,22 171:6,6 176:14 256:9 259:13 309:8 334:3 ,10,16 **typewriter** 275:20 **typical** 39:18 54:7 165:22 264:1 317:4,5 ,8 **typically** 37:9 60:19 121:11 152:4 163:1 245:6 269:21 284:5 **U U**  1:1 **U.S** 1:5 20:19 31:12 31:16 54:11 56:6 63:12 67:16 70:15 70:20 229:14 269:12 304:10,10 304:11 ,17 316:3 **U.S.C** 99:1 **ultimately** 81:22 **um** 199:8 **unable** 52:22 221:5 **unattractive** 58:8 318:6 **unavoidable** 69:12 **unaware** 46:8 **uncertain** 265:16 **uncertainty** 201:22 264:12 **undeniable** 43:14 **under-estimating** 50:17 **underestimated** 39:14 **underlying** 15:9

**undermine** 15:7 59:3 **understand** 11:18 14:8 63:10 78:9 78:15 79:10 82:9 82:10 85:7 ,22 88:19 89:10 92:12 94:18 115:2 120:18 145:21 157:17 180:22 181:2 198:1 211:16 221:18 233:17 279:17 333:13 **understanding** 14:3 60:22 148:14 206:6 250:5 268:14 317:7 **understands** 41:11 42:3 **understood** 120:4 129:8 **undertake** 285:5 **undertaken** 72:20 **undetermined** 68:2 **undoubtedly** 69:11 **unduly** 52:21 **unfortunately** 28:20 29:8 30:20 102:14 125:3 286:9 **UNIDENTIFIED** 249:17 **unique** 12:12 70:18 119:10 **unit** 33:18 ,20 40:10 136:22 139:14 142:18 180:11 245:19 283:14 301:5 ,14 334:9 **United** 24:8 34:13 41:16 57:9,14 86:9 87:10 195:5 213:12 235:10,13 235:16,19 287:3 307:20 313:19 315:20 320:20 **units** 48:3 ,3 ,16 50:20 52:12 58:7 89:19 139:21 160:22 199:12 225:17 ,17 226:21 258:12 265:20 281:12,13 282:6,8 282:10 308:15 309:10,10Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 377 **universe** 202:10 319:18 **unjustified** 23:1 **unlit** 55:3 **unmute** 10:8 **unnecessarily** 16:4 22:19 36:14 39:4 **unnecessary** 19:7 99:18 126:19 **unquestionably** 320:20 **unrealistic** 42:2 205:19 214:16 267:14 **unusual** 27:21 29:5 **unvented** 69:8 ,9,10 69:12,13 ,15 78:16 78:20 104:3 ,4 118:11 ,15 ,16,19 119:2,9 120:17 121:7 ,14 123:22 124:1 127:9,11 ,19 140:1 ,8 144:10,14 145:17 ,18 146:5 ,8 146:10,13 ,20 147:12 150:20 151:1 ,4 159:14 160:5 202:15 205:11 ,12,17 225:16 226:4,7 ,10 226:13 ,21 227:5 227:21 309:14,15 309:22 311:6,10 326:22 327:1 **unwilling** 52:17 **unworkable** 27:1 **update** 249:11 **upgrade** 52:17 **upgrading** 52:7 **upper** 226:14 283:7 **ups** 326:1 **urge** 21:14 227:22 **urges** 21:21 **USA** 2:21 **usage** 47:5 ,7 ,13 50:17 52:5 80:22 134:13 143:19 150:21 221:4,7 235:14 334:18 335:4 **USC** 15:21 **use** 8:18 18:22 19:5 20:22 21:1 22:12 24:7 ,22 25:11 29:21 37:1 38:3 40:2,10 42:10 46:17 ,21 47:17

49:8 50:1 ,4 52:13 52:13 53:7 ,10 56:14 58:5 60:1 64:22 66:10 71:16 76:4 83:9 89:3 ,12 95:22 96:1 ,11 97:5 ,6 98:3 99:19 100:1 105:7 122:9 122:10 124:8 126:20,21 ,22 130:9,12 145:19 155:1 158:16 159:2 160:7 163:15 165:20 167:22 168:1 173:21 176:10 180:8 182:4 184:9 185:19 186:4,18 187:5 ,21 188:4,9 188:11 ,17 189:22 196:13 ,18 197:12 197:13 ,13 198:9 198:11 199:17 201:14,19 202:2 203:22 205:15 208:16 209:4 211:16 212:10 213:22 216:22 218:2,11 220:17 221:13 222:12 223:10,19 225:2,3 225:4,5 ,11 227:1 230:15 ,16,17 ,18 230:19,21 233:18 233:19,20 235:18 236:13 238:1 ,5 247:19 249:8 ,12 249:12,14 259:14 259:21 263:10 271:14 272:22 280:7 289:15 292:10,14 293:1 300:14 308:7 ,20 315:12 325:4 329:3 330:19 331:3 ,6 **useable** 94:2 **useful** 93:14 124:17 225:14 226:2 228:8 231:1 296:17 336:10 **useless** 153:16 **USEPA** 55:14 **user** 16:1 18:10 50:21 131:2 132:20 165:14

**user-friendly** 18:20 **users** 16:20 49:11 49:13 ,15 ,17 ,20 50:3 208:14 209:9 221:8 243:19 255:6 **uses** 33:3 50:3 52:10 52:18 53:18 54:2 54:20 138:6,6,16 142:21 149:5 ,7 201:20 208:1 246:16 262:15 266:6,18 279:8 **usually** 115:15 193:7 **utilitarian** 220:10 **utility** 9:3 16:10 25:7 31:1 74:4 332:9,11 ,15 ,19,21 333:21 **V V.8**  31:22 **valid** 152:11 214:5 **value** 40:20,21 153:5 204:11 251:17 256:6 257:7 261:11 272:16,17 ,18 273:3 ,11 ,11 274:12,13 279:13 287:5 ,12 294:4 295:3 **values** 273:19 **valve** 28:4,6 50:6 140:3 ,7 145:18 ,19 147:13 ,13 ,16 148:4,7 ,11 ,20 149:13 150:11 ,21 150:22 151:7 255:10,16 289:17 **valves** 140:11 146:6 **vapor** 312:3 320:9 320:13 **vapors** 323:6 **variable** 29:19 30:12 47:20 **variables** 247:11 **variation** 204:10 208:17 **variations** 27:6 106:13 **varied** 139:22 195:5 **varieties** 38:20 **variety** 13:21 14:19 16:8 27:11 ,22 36:17 110:13 ,13 118:12 150:9 288:8 303:19 334:16 **various** 94:19 95:22 96:11 172:10 256:9 281:3 316:10 **varying** 47:10 138:19 282:22 **vast** 27:11 ,16 43:2 80:19 201:7 **vault** 320:14 **vent** 52:2 62:1 70:7 71:5 78:16,20 79:5 ,11 118:10 134:11 147:15 244:17 311:17 **vent-free** 216:19 217:1 222:15 ,20 223:5 227:21 228:3 ,12 **vent-less** 196:22 197:3 **vented** 38:2 49:3 79:6 96:1 ,21 104:1 ,4 118:8 ,18 119:11 121:7 ,13 123:21 124:1 127:5 ,8,10,11 134:10 140:1 ,8 142:9 144:12 146:5 157:12 158:15 166:4 196:21 197:1 202:14,16,17 223:9 226:12,13 258:14 309:12,15 310:8 311:13 ,16 326:22 333:4 **ventilation** 169:9,13 **venting** 33:5 118:13 **vents** 137:12 **venture** 145:2 **verbal** 291:20 **versus** 61:17 122:4 180:4 215:18 ,19 246:21 254:4 269:20 331:3 **Vice** 23:8 26:4 **Vice-President** 20:16 **view** 14:12 66:16 84:12 193:15 290:1 291:11 **viewed** 176:18

**viewing** 88:20 **violates** 40:22 **Virginia** 193:4 **virtual** 31:4 **virtually** 12:20 15:7 57:14 267:4 **visible** 19:21 71:19 77:17 101:21 162:17 **VO** 323:11 **voiced** 286:15 **voids** 28:11 **volatility** 265:14 326:2 **volt** 29:6 30:6 40:12 189:2 **volume** 30:14,20 35:2 141:7 144:6 145:6 180:10 289:18 **volumes** 141:3 282:1 301:4,9,15 301:17 **voluntarily** 288:12 **voluntary** 277:5 **W wait**  92:5 140:14 169:5 308:5 **walk** 162:17 240:17 281:9 282:14 **walked** 236:20 237:21 **Walker** 3:17 6:7 ,7 70:5 223:4 287:19 288:3 **walking** 101:21 186:2 **wall** 150:7 ,9 212:19 311:8 314:14,14 **walls** 323:6 **want** 10:18 11:9 46:20 57:21 69:11 79:3 83:1 85:7 86:13 87:11 91:12 94:8 101:6,8 105:22 111:1 112:20 115:5 124:8 ,11 133:21 136:17 137:8 154:20 155:22 161:15 169:5 190:6 192:22 204:13 212:12,22 216:18 220:19,21Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Hearth Products Standards Meeting March 23, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 378 220:22 222:13 228:9 235:22 239:3 260:2 270:22 290:5 ,8,12 290:12,12,21 291:9 293:18 312:15 321:22 325:14 327:20 328:7 ,21 331:8 ,9 332:5 334:16 335:4,9 **wanted** 32:17 67:4 72:9,11 79:22 80:14 88:13 110:18 130:22 131:9 169:1 174:9 189:19 217:4 238:22 286:10 294:3 **wanting** 218:12 228:19,20 **wants** 60:17 102:7 242:15 321:18 **warm** 33:18 244:17 **warmth** 33:11 **warrant** 30:14 **warranted** 295:7 **warranties** 254:17 **warranty** 253:20 254:7 255:22 **Washington** 1:7 4:8 23:16 32:18 **wasn't** 60:16 164:14 205:7 214:1 254:22 **waste** 47:15 86:20 86:21 **wasted** 137:18 229:19 **watch** 220:21 222:13 **water** 36:8 75:18 93:21 102:2 107:19 169:20 267:3 **watt** 205:3 **wattage** 204:9,17 **watts** 204:9,16 **wax** 51:11 308:8 **way** 11:7 20:10 40:4 45:20 60:18 ,21 66:13 71:10 78:2 82:16 84:5 86:18 88:16,16,18 90:19 91:4,20 92:10,21 93:4,8 100:16 108:17 109:17 ,17

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202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 379 128:12,13 133:9 133:13 154:1 200:20 209:5 216:1 218:19,20 219:4 220:6 249:18 252:2 254:22 256:4 261:11 ,15 265:4 268:11 269:15 ,15 275:2,6,8 294:11 294:22 295:5 ,6 306:5 326:2 328:10,17 ,18 **years'** 289:13 **Yep** 143:22 184:5 **yesterday** 33:17 **YouTube** 214:2 **Z Z21**  96:2,12 **zero** 128:1 227:13 311:10 **0 0**  226:3 324:1 **0.4** 295:17 **0.98** 266:12 **0001** 213:12 **05** 294:15**1 1**  54:7 178:21 180:18 214:10 226:3 227:13 266:12 325:1 **1%** 265:21 **1,000.00** 193:21 **1.03** 274:14 **1.25** 54:3 **1.4** 268:6 **1.45** 161:5 178:16 **1.5** 54:12 **1.83** 197:4 **1:30** 163:6,7 **10** 25:19 39:8 52:11 63:20 152:19 180:15 261:18 263:10 265:11 **10,000** 285:3 ,22 299:16 **10,000.00** 296:9 299:22 **10.00** 161:18 252:19 252:20 **10:15** 8:16 **10:30** 8:16 **100** 157:2 328:18

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### 381 

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# TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE



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