Brigadier General Benjamin O. Davis Sr.

Major Leander L. Doan

National Archives

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36

Sergeant Brown: Yes, I was a remount sergeant when we first
went down there. When they first went down there, we had to
train all these horses and everything for these recruits ... and
have horses for these recruits. We had to train them.

Captain Knapp: Train the horses.

Sergeant Brown: Train the horses just like we did the recruits.
They had eight weeks of training; horses had eight weeks of
training.

Captain Knapp: Tell us about that.

Sergeant Brown: Just like a recruit, we’d get the horses, and
I had a squad of, I think it was about twelve, thirteen men.
We'd all get out there and drill horses just like you would drill
a soldier. It was mounted drill, mounted drill on the horses. We
got them where we could get them from wanting to buck and
raise cain.

Captain Knapp: These are horses that have been procured and
broken. ...

Sergeant Brown: They’d been broken. The cowboys broke them
up there in Fort Robinson, Nebraska. They’d just get on a horse,
saddle him up, get out there, and as soon as he’d stop bucking,
they’d turn him over into a lot and call him broken. Well, he
was saddle broke for the time being, but when the Army got
him, he’d been out there in that pasture for three or four years
and ain’t been never rode since but five minutes.

Captain Knapp: So, you really had to start all over again with
a lot of them.

Sergeant Brown: Had to start over again with a lot of them.
Captain Knapp: But the horses learned like the men learned.

Sergeant Brown: They learned. You could say, “Left turn, ho,”
and he’d turn left. “Right: turn, ho,” “walk,” “trot”; he’d just
pick up whatever command you'd give.

Mr. Hollowell: However, the only difference is those horses,
though, were being trained for military operations rather than
for post activities when they were here for the polo... that sort
of thing. They were being trained to perform combat missions
in case they were needed in the Second World War. That’s the
thing.

Captain Knapp: I suspect that when you got out to Camp
Funston . .. you were still with the regiment then, weren’t you?


32

and I would type... the table and everything they had. They
sent me everything, the touch system. I’d go up there, and I
would type, type, type until two in the morning trying to
improve my typing.

All of this, unbeknownst to the people whom I was working
with. LaFlore, I didn’t tell him. I didn’t tell Captain Bly or
nobody else. Nobody knew it but my mother and my dad
because I would be up there so late and the wastepaper basket
was just loaded when I’d make so many mistakes that way.
But I said that’s the only way I could do it, just applying my-
self. That word kept going to me all the time—apply yourself. I
kept doing that.

They had noticed, after a certain length of time, that when
T’d make out a bill of lading the way that I was, you know,
doing pretty good without errors. I was slow but no errors in
it. I had practiced. I had took some of the forms that we’d
make out the bill of lading and carbon copies.

Captain Knapp: Practiced on the real forms.

Sergeant Robinson: Practiced on the real thing. When it came
my time to make out a bill of lading, I put it on his desk, and
he said, “Ship it. Let it go.” Boy, that was encouraging to me
and very inspiring. I said, “I’m doing all right you know.”

In the meantime, I continued this practice, all the time, late
at night until I got to the place until they began to notice that
way. When I’d sit down, I learned that I could make out the
bill of lading and learn the touch system. Cap looked and said,
“Look here. How are you doing this?” Well, I was honest. I
came out and told him.

Captain Knapp: That you had been practicing.

Sergeant Robinson: That I had been practicing. I told him
that I bought me a typewriter, that he was interested in helping
me. Everybody here was interested in helping me. Why couldn’t
I help myself? He said, “Well that’s good. We’re behind you.”

I improved, improved, improved on that until I became
schooled so well on the job, he thought, that LaFlore, who was
the chief man, the clerk, was going to take a vacation.

Captain Knapp: And you were still a private soldier at the
time.

Sergeant Robinson: Still a private soldier. No, a PFC.
Captain Knapp: PFC.


41

Captain Knapp: Were there a lot of differences*between what
white soldiers could do and what black soldiers could do back
then?

Sergeant Brown: Yes. Yes, when they first started out. When
they first started breaking up, then you didn’t... you couldn’t
arrest white soldiers down there in Louisiana.

Captain Knapp: Well, here at Fort Leavenworth, there were
white troop units at the same time you all were here, weren’t
there?

Sergeant Brown: Let’s see, there were mostly quartermaster
and MPs. The guard company was practically all white.
Sergeant Robinson: The 17th Infantry also was here.

Sergeant Brown: [The] 17th Infantry, that was all white. We
didn’t come too much in contact with them no way.

Sergeant Robinson: No, no.

Captain Knapp: They didn’t do any of this school support
or. ...

Mr. Hollowell: Yes, yes, they did.

Captain Knapp: Did they do some of that?

Sergeant Robinson: But they didn’t do any of the type of
work that we were doing. They weren’t servants. They [weren’t]
strikers or nothing like that, working or doing stable work or

nothing of that kind. I guess they were more or less in adminis-
trative work, wasn’t it?

Mr. Hollowell: I can’t qualify that, but they were primarily in
support of the Command and General Staff College [School]
activities and training.

Captain Knapp: Helping out with exercises and maneuvers,
small kinds of maneuvers and war games and training exercises
that the students here in the school would do, plus their own
training?

Mr. Hollowell: Right.

Mr. Brown: Well Rob, I heard you and Hollowell mention one
thing that you made a mistake on.

Sergeant Robinson: What’s that?

Mr. Brown: You said, “C Company.” C Troop. A cavalryman
does not like for you to call a troop a company.

Sergeant Robinson: That’s right; it was not a company.


9

Carter, I believe was his name. He [Robinson’s stepfather] said,
“Go and see him.” He took me around to the place. ‘I went in
to talk to this man. He was a nice person, and he asked me at
the time, “What sports do you play?” Well, as I said, I wanted
to get into the 10th Cavalry. He said, “Do you play football?” I
said, “Yes.” He said, “Do you play baseball?” I said, “Yes, I
do. I play baseball.”

10th Cavalry Yearbook, 1941

Master Sergeant L. M. Carter



51

there was a small bowling alley in Building 315, now called
Flint Hall.]

Captain Knapp: Fellows, I don’t think we’re going to solve
this. Aside from the service club and playing sports, those who
did, were there any other recreational things that you could do
on post? How about the movies?

Sergeant Brown: You could go to the movies.
[The rest agreed.]|

Captain Knapp: And I’m sure the dances and things at the
service club.

Mr. Brown: That’s where I done my thing. I’d get on that
floor.

Captain Knapp: You were a dancer?
Mr. Brown: Yes.
Mr. Hollowell: You mean in the old 10th Cavalry Club?

Mr. Brown: Yeah, in the old 10th Cavalry. I done my thing
on the floor. That’s the reason why my wife gets after me today.

Sergeant Brown: You're out there trying to dance.

Captain Knapp: What? Do you try to get her out there on the
floor...?

Sergeant Robinson: You can’t do your thing....

Mr. Brown: I tell her, “Come on, let’s dance.” She says, “I
will have to raise you up in the morning ’cause you won’t be
able to get up.”

Captain Knapp: Well, this has been great. I’d like to bring us
to a point now where I’d like to ask you general questions and
let each one of you respond for a couple of minutes. What do
you think are the main contributions of the soldiers of the 10th
Cavalry, black soldiers in general, during the time that you
served in the Army? What is the legacy during the time you
served? Let’s start with you, Sergeant Brown.

Sergeant Brown: Well, the only thing I can say is we did
just what we was told to do. I mean, we did what we was
supposed to do, and there wasn’t much soldiering to be done is
the only thing I can say—at first. After we left here and went
...1 enjoyed doing what duties we did have to do preparing
the younger men for what they had to come through in World
War II.

Captain Knapp: How about you, Mr. Brown?


49

cattle came up under the hill there and came to that milking
barn, and they’d milk them and send them on back down there.
Now, that’s been a long time ago, cause I wasn’t nothing but
a real small kid.

Captain Knapp: The area we are talking about is the area
over by where the new hospital is and where the communica-
tions center is.

Mr. Hollowell: Oh, I see. We’re coming farther north. When
you come to the end of....

Captain Knapp: Organ Avenue and that area there.

Mr. Hollowell: Yeah, you go farther north, if you pass the
back of the hospital, then you’re going to run into the... you’ve

got to... that runs out, you see. Where that road runs out,
then you make the left turn and that next time you can go
north ... those little sets of quarters right there was where

Brown lived.

Also, at the end of McClellan Street, going north, there used
to be three or four sets of quarters on the right-hand side of
the road there, I think. Evans lived up there at one time. A
fellow by the name of Baker lived up there. [George] Barnes
used to live up there.

Sergeant Robinson: That’s just right north of the old hospital.

Mr. Hollowell: No, no, I’m speaking about, you know where
the engineer, uh....

Sergeant Brown: Right north of where the fire station is.

Mr. Hollowell: Yes.

Sergeant Robinson: Oh yes, I see [several talking at once],
they had Number 7 Stable right up on the....

Captain Knapp: The veterinary clinic is in there now.
Sergeant Robinson: Yes, that’s right.

Captain Knapp: Family housing is down that way; the Engi-
neer Snack Bar is that way [all agree].

Mr. Hollowell: Then, as you make the left turn at the end of
McClellan, there was a big ... what they called a mule skinner’s
barn. That’s where the band was located, on that knoll over
there when I was....

Captain Knapp: Where was that exactly?

Mr. Hollowell: When you get to the end of McClellan Street,
make the left turn, you start to go down the hill.


L_ Major George E. Knapp —]

Major George E. Knapp is a history instruc-
tor at the Combat Studies Institute, U.S. Army
Command and General Staff College. He is a
graduate of Spring Hill College in Mobile,
Alabama; has an M.A. in history from the Uni-
versity of Missouri at Kansas City; and is a
USACGSC graduate. He served in Vietnam as
an enlisted man and received his commission
in the Infantry from Officer Candidate School
in 1978. He commanded infantry companies in
the 2d Armored Division (Forward). Other as-
signments at Fort Leavenworth include service
at the TRADOC Analysis Command and the
School of Advanced Military Studies.

COMBAT STUDIES INSTITUTE

Missions
The Combat Studies Institute was established on 18 June 1979 as a

department-level activity within the U.S. Army Command and General Staff
College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. CSI has the following mission:

1.

Prepare and present instruction in military history at USACGSC and assist
other USACGSC departments in integrating military history into their in-
struction,

Serve as the U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command’s executive agent
for the development and coordination of an integrated program of military
history instruction in the TRADOC service school system.

Conduct research on historical topics pertinent to the doctrinal concerns of
the Army and publish the results in a variety of formats for the Active
Army and Reserve Components.



Harry H. Hollowell collection

47

Sergeant Robinson: I don’t know about with my eyes closed,
captain. I ain’t going to say that, but I had walked it so much
that [it] was called “shack-pappy’s trail.”

Captain Knapp: Mr. Brown was telling me about that as we
were coming in. He says that you all would use that sometimes
when you wanted to slip off without getting caught.

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10th Cavalry sports poster highlighting Harry Hollowell


19

The 10th Cavalry, during the Second World War, members
that is, members of the 10th Cavalry, who enlisted as private
soldiers ...a number of them became commissioned officers.
Alfred Johnson became a lieutenant colonel.

10th Cavalry Yearbook, 1947

Corporal Alfred Johnson



37

Mr. Hollowell: No, I’d gone to... well, I was with them for a
short time.

Captain Knapp: For a short time because you’re in the [year]
book.

Mr. Hollowell: That’s right, but I went to school in ’42, to the
bandleaders’ school in January 42.

Captain Knapp: When the regiment got out to Camp Funston
and you had all the squadrons together and you were back
doing the kinds of things that soldiers enlisted to do, was there
an improvement in morale? How did the men feel about being
able to soldier again?

Sergeant Brown: Mostly, it was young soldiers. It was practi-
cally all new recruits and everything, so they started doing
regular duties as a soldier—guard duty and one thing and
another.

Captain Knapp: So, there were some parts about it that you
didn’t care much for.

Sergeant Brown: Well, as long as we were doing something
...we had our own horse to take care of. They were getting
you ready for wartime. [A] lot of times, the colonel would come
down there at night—it would be raining and carrying on—in
his car. We had to stop him and tell him to dismount and be
recognized. He’d say, “I’m Colonel So-and-So.”

[General laughter from all]

“TI don’t care who you are. Dismount. Put your things down
and back away from it.”

Captain Knapp: ID card.

Sergeant Brown: ID card. It’s raining, see. They were just
trying us out to see what we would do. A lot of them would
say they were Colonel So-and-So-and-So. Well, I ain’t going to
put the colonel out there, make him get out there too—the
general, make him get out there. After they seen how everyone
was going... I liked it.

Captain Knapp: You liked being a soldier.
Sergeant Brown: Yeah, I loved it.

Captain Knapp: You stayed with the regiment until it actually
ended up on the east coast somewhere, didn’t it?

Sergeant Brown: After they broke up, some started going here
and there... California; Camp Clark, Texas; wasn’t it?


ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

I extend my thanks to Roxie Dye and Juanita Brundy of
the Leavenworth Afro-American Historical Society; Winnie
Lichtenwalter of the Leavenworth Public Library; David
Watkins of the Leavenworth Post Office; and Commander
Carlton Philpot of the Department of Joint and Combined
Operations, USACGSC, for their help in researching the history
of the Buffalo Soldiers and David Armstrong and his television
crew at USACGSC for producing a video of these interviews.

Most of all, I thank the interviewees, Harry Hollowell, Elmer
Robinson, Julian Brown, and Lorn Brown for their gracious
cooperation in sharing their experiences as Buffalo Soldiers at
Fort Leavenworth.

GEORGE E. KNAPP
Major, Infantry
Combat Studies Institute

Art and design by Alfred T. Dulin

iii


30

Book Department under Mr. Williams. He was in the shipping
department. He said Mr. Williams wanted an honest person up

there.

I said, “I don’t know how he found out, but I’m honest as
far as that’s concerned.” He said, “Are you willing...do you
want to go?’ I said, “Yes sir, I don’t mind.” So, they sent me
up there to fill this vacancy. When I walked into the shipping
room, Cap [Bly] recognized me because, at one time, when I
lived on Dakota [Street], he lived on Kiowa [Street]. He knew
me by my being a friend to his son. He knew of me, but we
didn’t actually know one another. When he saw me, he said, “I
recognize you. I’ve seen you in the neighborhood.”

ction

Harry H. Hollowell c

co

Corporal Albert Bly with Harry Hollowell holding the horse's reins


16

I also met Peter C. Haynes, who was Mr. Brown’s troop
commander in the later thirties. He was a captain. I met him
in Okinawa when he was the Army IG [inspector general] with

the rank of major general.

General John P. Willey was my troop commander, I think,
in approximately 1939 as a captain. Overseas, he had Chinese
and American troops taking them up the Ledo Road to build a
road so as to get the Allied troops into Burma. His rank was

brigadier general.

Captain Charles Reed was my troop commander. I learned
that he became a major general.

Major General Peter C. Haynes and Mr. Hollowell at Fort Leavenworth in the early

1960s
|

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2


22

Kenneth Thomas, likewise a private soldier, retired as a

major.

161 ‘yooqsea, AyereD WOL

Sergeant Kenneth L. Thomas



18

The regimental commander at the time I was here at Fort
Leavenworth was Colonel P. R. Davison. His son became a
major general and the commandant of Fort Leavenworth
between the period of the 1960s and 1970s.

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Colonel Paul R. Davison



31

I said, “Yes, but Sergeant Bly, they sent you the wrong
man.” I looked at all the typewriters and all the things that
were to be done that way, and I said, “They sent you the wrong
man. I know nothing about any of this in here. I don’t know
how to do any of this.” He said, “Well, you may not know but
are you willing to learn?” “Yes sir, I’m always out to learn,” I
said; “I’m willing to learn, sure.” He said, “I’ll teach you.”

Mr. Hollowell: Ready and forward.
Sergeant Robinson: Yes, ready and forward.

In the meantime, there was another fellow there who was
from B Troop. He was working there as a clerk, LaFlore. Danny
Miles was working there as a truckdriver. LaFlore was the chief
of the thing. He was an expert with all of it, you know. He
said, “Rob, I’ll teach you.”

But it just looked like I couldn’t comprehend. My schooling
itself was limited. I hadn’t finished high school. Nothing like
that. How was I going to do this? This is too much. But, as I
said then, my stepfather always taught me that if you apply
yourself you can do anything that anybody else can do. So,
that.came back to me. In the meantime, he said, “Well, we'll
start you out.”

They were showing me what my duties were to be. He first
started out, after I was there for a little while, he taught me on
the typewriter. LaFlore, the chief man there, had me to make
out a bill of lading for the shipment that was to go out. We
shipped maps all over. You name it, we’d ship it all over the
country. It was a hunt and peck, hunt and peck, and it was
wrong when I got the bill of lading made out for the shipment.
I put it on Captain Bly’s desk and he said, “Well, that’s wrong
Rob. Try it again.” He was a very patient man.

I’d go and type it again, and finally, I put it on his desk,
and he said, “Put it on there and let it go.” Well, that aroused
my ego, man. I was ready to do anything.

Captain Knapp: You got it right!

Sergeant Robinson: Yeah, I got it right. Well, then I’m on
my way now. In the meantime, I was there for about a month,
and I was doing pretty good. If the people there were that
interested in me improving myself, why not help myself? So, I
sent off to Chicago, and I bought myself a typewriter. After
they sent it, my parents lived here in Leavenworth at the time,
and I... after they sent this typewriter, I would go up there


13

Sergeant Robinson: That was a month, wasn’t it?

Mr. Brown: Yes, fifteen dollars a month. I’m rich now, you
see. I kept doing that for a while. I got along just fine with all
the people. They switched me to different places—went around
to different places. While I was going there, [I found] that the
officers really didn’t run the Army. Their wives did. Any time I
got in trouble, it was always one of their wives that got me out
of trouble. So, I found that out.

In the meantime, I had worked for majors before I ever came
in the Army, and I stayed with them. The one that swore me
in, I worked for him. He lived down in Leavenworth, downtown.
He kept telling me how nice it was in the Army. I could get in
the Army and go up, you know, and it would be nice. Well, I
thought it would be nice too.

But I got there, and it seemed like I was just standing still
too long. I kept asking the sergeant, “Why can’t I get a rating
or something?” He said, “Well, the ratings are froze in the 10th
Cavalry.”

Captain Knapp: That is, promotions in the 10th Cavalry were
frozen.

Mr. Brown: Yes, they were stopped right there. I said, “Well,
don’t look like I’m going to do any good here, so I’m going to
have to hunt some place else to go.” As far as the men in the
service, I got along fine with them. We had a nice time. I boxed.
I had a lot of fun boxing. I had a lot of fun training some of
the other guys, you know. But that wasn’t making me any
money. At that time, it might sound different, I was kind of
money hungry. I was greedy. I wanted more all the time.

Captain Knapp: More than twenty-one dollars a month.

Mr. Brown: Yes, I got up to thirty dollars. When I got my
fifteen regular pay, cause they took out so much, then I got the
fifteen dollars for striking. That gave me thirty dollars. I went
on thirty dollars there for a while, you know, like that. I
thought that was pretty good. But I said, “I’d like to be a PFC,
a private first class, then go on up to a corporal,” just like the
major and them told me you could do. I couldn’t do that. So, I
said, “Well, I’m just going to get out.” Someone asked me, “Why
do you want to get out of the Army? The Army’s the best place
for you. You get fed. You know that when you came in here
you were hungry.”


5

Retired Staff Sergeant Lorn Brown of Lansing, Kansas.
Sergeant Brown enlisted as a private in the 10th Cavalry at
Fort Leavenworth on 14 January 1936. He served in A Troop
as a groom in the polo stable and later as a remount sergeant.
During World War II, Sergeant Brown served in the Pacific
theater of war. He retired in August 1956 after more than twenty
years’ service.

1d Pictorial Review: 10th Cavalry of the United States Army—Camp Funston-Fort Riley, Kansas, 1941 (hereatter

referred to as 10th Cavalry Yearbook, 1941)

Staff Sergeant Lorn Brown, 1941



28

doubt but what he now wears two stars rather than one. I can’t
find the article here, but it’s a credit because the old 9th and
10th Cavalry did its duty to lay the groundwork for many
officers now who go to this school [USACGSC], which shows
that the country will never be at its best until it has all of the
groups, all of the ethnic groups, of the nation making their con-
tribution to the American way of life.

The article that I was speaking about: “General Johnson,
Black History Month Speaker,” The Leavenworth Times, the
date is February 16, 1989. He goes on to make a remark, I
hope to be able to find it, in which one item that he remembered
as a youngster was seeing me go to church in uniform. Here it
is, I think. See, if I had my good eyes—

Longtime Leavenworth resident Louis B, Johnson. Gladys Johnson
raised two sons. The prize photo on Johnson’s wall shows his father
dressed in his 10th Cavalry uniform standing under the flag of
Troop A.... Several mentioned their family’s devotion to Bethel
AME Church. Johnson said the foundation of his upbringing was
the church. The Leavenworth High School graduate of 1958 recalls
Sunday services on the morning Harry H. Hollowell would play the
piano for the service.

I think he made the comment at this address. One of his
most memorable memories was seeing me go to church in

uniform and participate in the religious service of the old Bethel
AME Church.

I do not want to monopolize this period, but it’s a wonderful
reflection. I appreciate the work that the Department of the
Army and that Captain Knapp is doing, and I have great credit
for the project which is now underfoot to commemorate the con-
tributions of members of the minority—the black troops. [With]
everybody working together, we can’t help but be successful.

Captain Knapp: It’s alway nice, Mr. Hollowell, that people like
you keep up with all: these folks and where they are and where
they were and when they served. It’s good that... now Sergeant
Robinson, you were going to say something about... .

Sergeant Robinson: I was just going to make a comment
about... he was speaking about not wanting to monopolize the
whole thing, but I was enjoying his monopolizing.

Captain Knapp: You knew a lot of those folks he was talking
about, all of you did.

Sergeant Robinson: Yes, I knew all of them. Yes, that’s why


§
3
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2
x
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25

Mr. Hollowell: On a number of occasions, he got him out of
jail. Let’s see here—

In Atlanta, Donald Hollowell dispelled a far more intense gloom
that morning when he trumpeted the news that Judge Mitchell had
changed his mind and signed an order to release King on $2,000.00
bond.

In my opinion, Don has contributed admirably to our way
of life of today. However, he got his start here in Troop A of
the 10th Cavalry, having left the regiment in 1938, went to
school at Lane College, and pursued a legal career. I’m very
proud of his contributions.

At the first 10th Cavalry reunion here in 1966, Hollowell was
one of the principal speakers along with Governor Avery, who
was governor of the state of Kansas. And in this picture is
also a picture of Senator Reilly, the commandant ... [reading]
“Senator Reilly, Governor Avery, Attorney Hollowell, Adolph
Holmes, Urban League director, was a member of Troop B of
the 10th Cavalry.” He became an important person in the
National Urban League; he became its director. He was on the
podium, on the stage here at the current Fort Leavenworth
theater at this 10th Cavalry reunion.

Donald L. Hollowell receives an award at the Kappa Alpha Psi testimonial banquet
in Atlanta, Georgia, on 22 February 1969. From left to right are Reverend Ralph
David Abernathy, Mr. Hollowell, Rheubin M. Taylor, Mrs. Hollowell, and Bishop P.
Randolph Shy



se me
(1) McNair Hall, (2) Funston Hall, (3) stables, (4) riding hall, (5) Command and
General Staff School, and (6) 10th Cavalry service club and athletic fields

System in June 1987 and assigned to the 194th Armored
Brigade at Fort Knox, Kentucky.

From 1931 to 1940, the 1st Squadron of the 10th Cavalry
served at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. It performed caretaking
and housekeeping duties. Its soldiers served as saddlers,
painters, horseshoers, mechanics, carpenters, cooks, military
police, and grooms for the horses used by officers assigned to
the Command and General Staff School. They also performed
duties in the houses of officers for extra pay. They cared for
the grounds; taught military wives and children how to ride;
and served as messengers, clerks, and warehousemen.

They were billeted in what are now called Funston Hall and
McNair Hall. Their stables comprised what are now Muir Hall,
Flint Hall, and Gruber Gymnasium. Their service club was
located in what is now Gruber Field. They trained in the area
now occupied by Normandy housing area and Patton Junior
High School.

Frontier Army Museum


wr

Captain Knapp: I’m Captain George Knapp of the Combat
Studies Institute, United States Army Command and General
Staff College. Today, we’re talking with veterans of the 10th
Cavalry.

The 10th Cavalry was organized on 21 September 1866 at
Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. It, along with the 9th Cavalry, 24th
and 25th Infantry, formed the first all-black regiments in the
United States Army.* Collectively, the men who served in these
regiments are called Buffalo Soldiers from the descriptive name
given them by the Indians. The 10th Cavalry served in the West
against the Indians until the war with Spain in 1898. The 10th
served in Cuba along with the 9th Cavalry as part of The
Cavalry Division.

After the war with Spain, the regiment served in a series of
posts in the United States and in the Philippines. In 1916, the
10th was part of General Pershing’s punitive expedition into
Mexico. It remained on the southwest border during World War
I and until 1931 when its squadrons were posted to support
Army training at West Point, Fort Meyer, and Fort Leavenworth.
The regiment reassembled in 1940 [1941] at Camp Funston [Fort
Riley], Kansas.

The 10th was inactivated during World War II and its
soldiers transferred to various service units. In the fall of 1950,
the 10th Cavalry was converted as the 510th Tank Battalion
and activated at Camp Polk, Louisiana. The battalion was trans-
ferred to West Germany in 1952 and became [racially] integrated
in that year. It remained in West Germany until 1958 until it
was reorganized and redesignated as the 10th Cavalry at Fort
Knox, Kentucky.

The lst Squadron fought. with the 4th Infantry Division in
Vietnam. The 2d Squadron served as the reconnaissance unit
in the 7th Infantry Division. The 3d Squadron performed recon-
naissance missions for the 77th Infantry Division in the Army
Reserve and, in 1977, was activated as an armor battalion in
the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood, Texas. The 10th Cavalry
was reorganized under the United States Army Regimental

‘Initially, all these black regiments had white officers and black enlisted
men.


14

I said, “No. When I came in here, I wasn’t hungry because
I was working for officers and they were eating good. I wasn’t
hungry.” I got out. Well, before I ever came in the Army, I
could cook. I cooked for private families. I ran cattle. I did a
lot of things before I ever came in the Army. I thought, well,
I'd get out and go back to some of those old deals, which I did.
I went back to cooking in Kansas City and got other jobs that
paid a little bit more than I was getting in the Army. Of course,
I had to buy my own clothes and food and everything like that.
As far as the Army, the Army is all right. I liked the Army—if
they would advance me a little bit, just give me a little some-
thing to satisfy me for a while.

Captain Knapp: Let’s ask Mr. Hollowell. Mr. Hollowell, you
were a troop clerk and a recruiting sergeant. Mr. Brown is
talking about the promotions being frozen. What caused that?

Mr. Hollowell: I think the Department of the Army allocated
certain amounts of money for the administration, for the
administrators to take care of paying the troops and running
the operation on the post. Of course, if they only allocated a
certain amount of spaces and a certain amount of monies, then
the regimental commander can’t authorize any more money for
the various grades or any more promotions than what his allo-
cation has been from the Department of the Army.

Captain Knapp: I know that one of your interests is in keeping
track of and knowing about some men who served in the 10th
Cavalry and went on to do other things later in life. Some of
them made really significant contributions to this country. Why
don’t you tell us about some of those.

Mr. Hollowell: Some of the more famous personalities that
were associated with the 10th Cavalry, I would list, perhaps,
General B. O. Davis and his son—that is, B. O. Davis Jr. and
B. O. Davis Sr. B. O. Davis Sr. was the 4th Brigade commander,
which included both the 9th and 10th Cavalry when the regi-
ment reassembled at Fort Riley in 1940. General Davis’ son
eventually became a lieutenant general in the Air Force. I think
he still lives at this time.

Another officer who became famous, at least from what he
was when he was in the 10th Cavalry, was Leander L. Doan.
Doan was my squadron commander as a major. I met him in
Okinawa, and he had the rank of major general.


Retired Sergeant First Class Elmer E. Robinson of Leaven-
worth, Kansas. Sergeant Robinson enlisted as a private in the
10th Cavalry at Fort Leavenworth on 15 May 1935. He served
in A Troop as a groom in the polo stable until selected to work
in the Command and General Staff School Book Department
as a shipping clerk. He worked in the Book Department until
December 1941 when World War II began. He retired in July
1955 after more than twenty years of service.

Elmer E. Robinson



20

Irvin McHenry was a private soldier about the time that I

came in. He retired a lieutenant colonel.

161 ‘yooqsee, A1yereD YIOL

Staff Sergeant Irvin McHenry



Buffalo Soldiers

at Fort Leavenworth
in the 1930s
and early
1940s

pe:


43

Distinctive insignia of the 10th Cavalry

and basketball, those were the three major events. Sports always
stimulates esprit de corps within the regiment. A regiment that
plays well, fights well, works well. That’s the way I tick and
the way that perhaps any regiment that had a good football
team or could win... the 9th and 10th Cavalry, when they
came together, that was one of the most important events of
the whole year, with the 9th Cavalry and 10th Cavalry playing
football here on old Gruber Field.

Captain Willey... when I first came in, Captain Barnes—
what’s Barnes’ first name?
Sergeant Robinson: Wallace.

Mr. Hollowell: Wallace Barnes was the coach of the team. A
fellow by the name of “Hamfat” Jenkins was his assistant.


7

Welcome to all of you gentlemen. We’re very pleased to have
you with us today.

Let’s begin with Mr. Hollowell. Mr. Hollowell, you were a
troop clerk and recruiting sergeant in the 10th Cavalry. Tell us
about how the 10th was organized at Fort Leavenworth when
you served there.

Mr. Hollowell: The regiment was organized ... consisted of
Headquarters Troop, A Troop, and B Troop. The regiment main-
tained itself up until 1940 at which time the regiment moved to
Fort Riley [Camp Funston]. My main interest is that of making
any statements that enhances the creditability of the 10th
Cavalry soldiers. They performed admirably at that time, and
we desire to make creditable the work that they did then and

bring it up to make its importance appropriate today as I see
it.

Captain Knapp: Sergeant Robinson, you have an interesting
story about how you came to enlist in the 10th Cavalry.

Sergeant Robinson: Well, my father was a member of the
CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] camp, old World War I
veterans, and they were stationed here at Fort Leavenworth next
to the old 10th Cavalry barracks in a little place of their own
there. At the time, I was working in Kansas City as a young
man at Fred Harvey’s [in the] Union Station. My parents had
moved to Leavenworth. I decided to come up to visit them one
time. While visiting them, I decided to come out and visit with
my dad, my stepfather, rather, at the time.

While visiting with him, I had dinner. He took me around
to the 10th Cavalry where they were serving—cafeteria style.
The food was so wonderful, and we had a good dinner. Every-
body was so jovial and so interesting too—so friendly. He asked
me if I wanted to go around and see the barracks. I said that I
wanted to see because I wasn’t familiar with soldiers. I hadn’t
been around soldiers. In the meantime, he took me around
through the barracks and, at the time, the beds were made up
so they looked like stones that way. Everything was in line.
The shoes by the bed were just like glass. The floors were like
glass, and I was impressed with that.

I asked him, “Can anybody be a soldier?” He said, “Well, if
you are accepted, if you want to be a soldier.” I said, “Well,
how do I go about being one?”


Mr. Julian R. Brown of Leavenworth, Kansas. Mr. Brown
enlisted as a private in the 10th Cavalry in July 1936. He served
as a groom and as a striker (a soldier who worked in an officer’s
home). Mr. Brown left the service at the end of his first enlist-
ment in September 1939.

Julian R. Brown



U.S. Army Command and General Staff College
Fort Leavenworth, Kansas


39



27

post bandleader’s name was Mr. Hebert, I believe, and I had
the ambition of one day coming or being a bandleader. I was
fortunate enough to make bandleader in °42 and, eventually,
come here as the post bandleader [1960—63].

I still live here in Leavenworth, proud of the community,
proud of the comments and the remarks which these men have
made, and I hope life continues well. Oh yes, there’s a young
fellow here who was seven or eight years old when I came in.
His dad’s name was Louis B. Johnson. Seven or eight years
old, but the fellow now is a brigadier general, and I wouldn’t

Brigadier General Julius Johnson, son of Louis B. Johnson



44

Captain Knapp: Hamfat Jenkins!
Sergeant Robinson: That was his nickname.

Mr. Hollowell: His name was Cleveland Jenkins, but his nick-
name was Hamfat because he was a chubby, big, fat fellow.
Sergeant Robinson: He was in charge of the horseshoeing
department; he was a horseshoer.

Mr. Hollowell: That was his duty. Another fellow who played
on the football team was named Fitzgerald—big fellow.
Sergeant Robinson: Also was a horseshoer.

10th Cavalry Yearbook, 1947

First Sergeant Cleveland (“Hamfat”} Jenkins



26

On the podium at the 10th Cavalry reunion in 1966 are from left to right Post
Chaplain C. A. Goss; Brigadier General Robert C. Taber, assistant commandant of
USACGSC; Leavenworth Mayor Thomas D. Beal; Sergeant Henry D. Williams, presi-
dent of the Retired Men's Club; Adolph Holmes, director of the Urban League;
Attorney Donald L. Hollowell; Kansas Governor William H. Avery; and Kansas State
Senator Edward F. Reilly

The post commander, or the deputy, I think, was Brigadier
General Taber, Fort Leavenworth acting commandant at that
time. Sergeant Henry D. Williams was president of the Retired
Men’s Club, which was the sponsor of the 10th Cavalry reunion.

But the 10th has made a lot of wonderful contributions. The
motto of the 10th was Ready and Forward. Many personages
of the 10th have made their records here in whatever capacity
they served as members of the 10th Cavalry and have gone on
to maintain a continuity ...made their contribution in today’s
life, made their contributions as then, which brings us up to
today.

I’m proud to have been a member of the 10th Cavalry along
with these members here. Oh, that’s right, I served here from
1960 to 1963 as the post bandleader. That’s a far cry from enlist-
ing as a soldier... as a private in 1936. When I came in, the


3

We’re fortunate to have with us today four veterans of the
10th Cavalry—four Buffalo Soldiers. They will share with us
some of their reminiscences of their service at Fort Leavenworth
in the 1930s.

Our four guests today are—

Retired Chief Warrant Officer Harry H. Hollowell of Leaven-
worth, Kansas. Mr. Hollowell enlisted as a private in the 10th
Cavalry at Fort Leavenworth on 25 January 1936. He served: in
A Troop as troop clerk, recruiting sergeant, and later as
squadron sergeant major. He attended the Army Music School
in 1942 and graduated as a bandleader. He served as a
bandmaster both in the United States and overseas. He retired
in August 1964 after more than twenty-eight years of service.

Chief Warrant Officer Harry H. Hollowell, 1958



17

Brigadier General John P. Willey

Major Charles H. Reed



54

I hope you have found this session with these veteran
soldiers informative. I hope you found it interesting, and I hope
that it’s given you a new perspective on the contributions of
soldiers to this country several years ago and even up through
current times. Thanks very much for being with us today.

3 U.S. Government Printing Office: 1994 - 655-001 (2120)


34

together. They talked about moving and all like that.

Captain Knapp: Start doing more military training and less
service business.

Sergeant Robinson: Well, yes. Then, they moved in other
companies. I think C Company came in here at that time, didn’t
they?

Mr. Hollowell: Yes.

Sergeant Robinson: As I said, I’d been trained for the job up
at the Book Department. When they began to consider the
chance that the 10th Cavalry was going to leave, the same man
that I talked to about getting into the service, Sergeant Carter,
regimental sergeant major, sent for me. I went to him and he
said, “Rob, do you stay here or go with the 10th Cavalry?”

In the meantime, I had met a wonderful girl here that I
contemplated marriage.

Captain Knapp: A woman enters the scene.

Sergeant Robinson: A woman. She was here, and she had
talked of marriage. I said, “I’d just as soon stay here.” I had
never been anywhere else, so I didn’t know the disadvantage
or the advantage of going. In the meantime, he said, “Well, it’s
left up to you.” He said that Mr. Williams had called [and that]
he had inside information about the 10th Cavalry getting ready
to leave. He said, “He [Williams] would like for you to stay,
but it’s left up to you.” I said, “I would like to stay here in the
detachment.” Mr. Williams, in the meantime, had asked me if I
wanted to stay. He told me the same thing—that it was left up
to me. I told him that I would like to stay here. He said, “That
suits me well.” So, I transferred from the 10th Cavalry into the
detachment, and the 10th Cavalry left me here.

Captain Knapp: The Service Detachment it was called.

Sergeant Robinson: The Service Detachment, that’s right.
After the 10th Cavalry left, I was here and I could see, after
they were gone a certain length of time, the fellows coming
back and I was a PFC; I could see the guys coming back with
chevrons on.

Captain Knapp: Gotten promoted.

Sergeant Robinson: Yeah, fellows that I was in long before
they were. They were sergeants and corporals and things that
way. That’s what I said about the advantages of staying and
the disadvantages of staying and the advantages of going.


35

Captain Knapp: So, once the 10th Cavalry reassembled out
there at Fort Riley, the promotions came back to being like
normal.

Sergeant Robinson: Yeah, they began to rise.

Captain Knapp [to Mr. Brown]: Except for you. You were
out of the Army by then.

Mr. Brown: I was out of the Army, but I knew about things
going to happen because the majors told me.

Captain Knapp: Officers talking about war coming on?

Mr. Brown: They talked about the war, and they talked about
changing from horses to tanks. I said, “I’ll be a tank man. I’ll
get in that tank, and I’ll run it.’’ But it wasn’t happen-
ing fast enough.

Captain Knapp: Are you talking about the students, or are
you talking about the officers in your own squadron?

Mr. Brown: No, the officers that I’m talking about was majors
and things that wasn’t even in the 10th Cavalry.

Captain Knapp: Students in the college.

Mr. Brown: The ones that I worked for. Yeah, they were
students. They told me, well they brought in the Ist Cavalry
on tanks and things, and the majors started telling me that
the 10th Cavalry would eventually go to tanks, for the horses
were going out of style.

Captain Knapp: But, in fact, the 10th Cavalry didn’t go to
tanks right away, did they, Sergeant Brown?

Sergeant Brown: No.

Captain Knapp: You stayed with the regiment all the way
through its deployment out to Camp Funston, and you were

with the regiment through the maneuvers and getting ready to
go to Europe. Tell about what happened then.

Sergeant Brown: Yes, it was in 41 when we went on ma-
neuvers all down through Louisiana and Texas. Horses were
the great thing in that maneuver.

Captain Knapp: Horses?

Sergeant Brown: Horses were in that maneuver. They could
go sometimes where tanks couldn’t go.

Captain Knapp: You were a remount sergeant then, isn’t that
right?


50

Captain Knapp: Sure, past the old MP Station ,..go ahead,
tell us.

Mr. Hollowell: When you get to the end of that road,
McClellan, that big building, I don’t know what it is there now,
but just over to the right there, on that knoll was the, what
they called the mule skinner’s barn where the band used to be
located. You understand where I’m talking about?

Captain Knapp: I think so, sure.

Mr. Hollowell: Let’s see. Once you get down to the bottom, of
the hill, then over to the left side is where the... uh, the...I

can’t think... the rec, rec... where they fix cars there. What
do you call it? [Recreational Services Auto Craft Shop]

Sergeant Brown: The motor pool?

Mr. Hollowell: Yes, the motor pool. Down in the motor pool,
you see, down below but before you get to where you make the
turn down there, on this knoll I’m talking about is where this
band quarters used to be.

Captain Knapp: You all talked earlier about the... very
briefly about your service club that’s now located, well, that
was located where Gruber football field is now. Aside from that
service club, what other things were available to the black
soldiers, black troopers for recreation on post.

Sergeant Robinson: Well, they had the bowling alley. Didn’t
they come up with the bowling alley?

Mr. Hollowell: That was later on; that was after ’36.
Sergeant Brown: That was after we broke up; that was after
°40.

Sergeant Robinson: That’s right. They had that before the
10th Cavalry left here, didn’t they?

Sergeant Brown: They just was fixing it.

Sergeant Robinson: Just had fixed it.

Captain Knapp: Was that the bowling alley that was inside
the polo stable or in Gruber riding hall?

Mr. Hollowell: That was inside the polo stable.

[What followed was a lengthy discussion of just exactly which
building was the polo stable and which was Stable Number 1.
At the end, Sergeant Brown and Mr. Brown agreed that Mr.
Hollowell and Sergeant Robinson were wrong. We never really
decided where the bowling alley was. Post records show that


23

g
i
2
=
2

Leroy Green when he retired from Temple University

I have here a picture of a former member of the 10th Cavalry
in the person of Leroy Green—a member of Troop B during the
time that Mr. Johnson [Brown] was a member of the 10th
Cavalry. He was a private soldier... however, this article...
“Leroy Green Taking Retirement From Temple University” [says
that] he had been an instructor at Temple University, which is
a great progress. Let’s see, what does it state?

His “first retirement” was in 1956 after serving 20 years in the
U.S. Army where he rose from the rank of private to captain. He
had enlisted in 1935 in the “horse cavalry” at Fort Leavenworth in
his native Kansas.


53

benefits of the hard knocks that we made the sacrifices for
...that we went through. That’s what makes me feel good
about.

Captain Knapp: I think you all reap some of the benefits too.
At least, I hope you do. Mr. Hollowell, why don’t you wrap it
up for us.

Mr. Hollowell: I think the mission of all soldiers is that of
being prepared for war in time of peace. The contributions that
were made by the soldiers, they happened to be black in this
particular situation, I think the contribution that [we] made was
just the same as that made by any other troops. We had to
withstand many disadvantages as a result of the prejudice, or
discrimination, but I think the conscience of the people is such
that a number of those things have been changed to the satis-
faction of all concerned in the memories of the majority as well
as the minority.

The success of our nation is dependent upon the contributions
of everybody doing his best to make our nation great. The mea-
suring stick should be that of people, not necessarily people of
color, but all peoples making their contribution regardless of
who they are, where they are. They make a contribution as an
American rather than necessarily as a black man.

I’m thinking particularly in the case of the one assignment
as of this day. I feel that the president of the United States,
the current president, the vice president, and those people made
their selection of the current joint chief... what do you call it?

Captain Knapp: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs [General
Colin L. Powell]....

Mr. Hollowell: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I think
they had reasons for selecting him to do that job because they
thought he could do it. But I don’t think they had in the back
of their mind that this is a black man necessarily. I’m hoping
that they made the choice based on the effect that he is an
American who happens to be black. I hope that as we move
forward today that that be the barometer, the catalyst, the main
objective of the administration of our government and adminis-
trators of our Army... that they include all of their subjects
exploiting their talents to the greatest degree based on the fact
that they are Americans who happened to be black and that
the nation goes forward and we all live happily ever after.

Captain Knapp: Thank you, Mr. Hollowell, and thank all of
you for being with us today.


Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data

Buffalo soldiers at Fort Leavenworth in the 1930s and early 1940s
interviews conducted by George E. Knapp.
pom.
1. United States, Army. Cavalry, 10th—History—20th century.
2. United States. Army—Afro-American troops—History—20th
century. 3. Fort Leavenworth (Kan.)—History. 4, Afro-American
soldiers—Kansas—Fort Leavenworth—Interviews. I. Knapp, George
E, (George Edward), 1949-
UAS31 10th.B83 1991
355’ .0089'96073—de20 91-21503
cIP



42

Captain Knapp: Well, I’m an infantryman. I’m not going to
argue with you.

Sergeant Robinson: That’s right, there’s no C Company in
the cavalry at that time, especially the old horse cavalry.

Mr. Brown: When they used to meet one another and they
didn’t know you, they call you “trooper.” And if you was a
trooper, a white cavalry[man] and black [cavalryman] would
fight for each other.

Captain Knapp: Troopers would.

Mr. Brown: Yes, they’d stick together. They don’t let nobody
run over a trooper.

Captain Knapp: In fact, there was a parade. Wasn’t there a
parade out at Manhattan, Kansas, and the units were
organized for the parade... this is during the 1940—41 time
when you're out at Camp Funston. One of the black cavalry
units was the lead in the parade? Because its lineage was....

Mr. Brown: Yes, they led right here in Leavenworth when they
had parades. We led the parade. We always led the parade.
Wasn’t no other outfit here ranked above us as far as the
cavalry.

Captain Knapp: Lineagewise.

Mr. Brown: Yes, the cavalry is... well, I think the engineers
come ahead of the cavalry, but there wasn’t no engineers here.
So, that put the 10th Cavalry in front.

Captain Knapp: The regimental motto, Ready and Forward,
was that part of your everyday greeting when you’d see an
officer and have to salute, did you say that?

Mr. Hollowell: No, no, that’s just on the inscription. The buf-
falo around the edge of the... .

Captain Knapp: Today, particularly in a lot of line units which
have mottos, whenever a soldier passes an officer and salutes
he'll say ... he’ll call out whatever the motto is.

Sergeant Robinson: No, we didn’t have to do that.

Captain Knapp: Mr. Hollowell, you were quite an athlete here
at Fort Leavenworth, and I know you have got a special phi-
losophy about athletics and the way athletics help men prepare
for life. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that?

Mr. Hollowell: I always like sports from high school until such
time as I got into the service. Having played football, track,


40

Lieutenant General Ben Lear addresses the officers and noncommissioned officers
of the 10th Cavalry at Camp Funston. Officers standing left to right are Brigadier
General Terry Allen, Lieutenant General Ben Lear, and Brigadier General B. O. Davis.

Mr. Hollowell: When did you leave for the maneuver?
Sergeant Brown: We left there in ’41.

Mr. Hollowell: 41. But it was after the maneuver that they
started to... .

Captain Knapp: These are the maneuvers down in Louisiana
and....

Sergeant Brown: Louisiana and Texas and all that. After they
came back, they started breaking up one thing and another.
[Of] course, that’s when I got pissed off at the Army anyway.
They wanted to send me to Camp Polk, Louisiana. Well, down
South then was kinda hard, see. Cause a buddy of mine, he
went down there and got into the MPs. They hadn’t gotten
things broken down the way they do now, so they had MP
duties, but the white MP could carry a gun and they gave the
colored MP, he had to carry a stick. So, he wrote and told me
about it, and so, they were going to send me down there and I
told them, “I ain’t going.”

[General laughter]

Sergeant Robinson: A stick is not competition against a gun,
is it?

Sergeant Brown: If I’m an MP and I can’t carry a gun, then
I ain’t going.

2
é


10

But I exaggerated on the football. I never played football
before in my life. But anything to impress him, and he was
impressed because I was a young sapling that way—all built
up. I was heavy.

He said, “Well, I’m going to put you on the list.” At that
time, you had to wait for somebody to die... or, I say, wait
for a vacancy to be filled before they could call you. At the
time, I think they must have had about twelve vacancies. So,
he put me on this list and I waited, I think, for about... it
must have been six months, I guess somewhere along there,
before I was called. When I was called, I went in and I stayed
with it until I got out, until I retired. As I said, I was just
impressed with what I saw. I enjoyed every minute of it. It
was good. And that’s just about all I have to say about it, you
know. That’s about the way it was.

Captain Knapp: Sergeant Lorn Brown, you worked down at
the polo stable. What were your duties down at the polo stables?

Sergeant Brown: They assigned you four polo ponies. You had
to, every morning, take them out and clean each stall—get it
ready so it would dry out. After you did that and got the stable
cleaned out, you had to saddle up and take them out for
exercise. [I’d] ride them from the stables clean out to Metro-
politan [Avenue] across the fields and then back, tie them back
on the line, and come back in. You’d have to take and get your
currycomb and brush, rag, and clean them up, groom them,
brush them down. Then, long about noon, we’d have to put them
back in the stable and feed them.

Then, about two o’clock or so, if we had a game, we had to
take and put the boots on them. So, we’d get the boots on them,
maybe round about two. We had to be on the field about 3:30.
Each horse was assigned to some officer. He had a certain
mount that he rode. All they’d do is call for their mount, and
whoever that mount belonged to would carry him up to where
they were playing polo. We’d, maybe, get off from up there
round about six o’clock. Then, we’d have to come back to the
stables, dry the horses, dry them down, wipe them down, water
them, put them in their stalls—just put them to bed.

Captain Knapp: How many horses did each man have to take
care of?

Sergeant Brown: We had four horses to take care of.

Captain Knapp: Mr. Brown, you were a groom, but you were
also a striker.


52

Mr. Brown: I think it was kinda slow going, but the war shook
all that up, and that’s what brought them to the ranks and
everything. But see, I made a mistake. I was looking too far
ahead too fast, and that’s when I got out. Mr. Williams and
Mr. Hunnicutt [Sergeant Hunnicutt] tried to get me to stay, and
he said, “Something’s going to break pretty soon, Brownie, some-
thing’s going to break.” I said, “Yeah, my back.” They laughed.
He said, “No, no. Just stay in a little bit longer.” Well, I didn’t
see that, but they saw it cause they said something was going
to break pretty soon. I got out in ’39, the winter of ’39 and °40
is when they commenced to bringing them all in there.

Captain Knapp: Sergeant Robinson?

Sergeant Robinson: I feel that the contribution that we made
as black soldiers made it possible for some of the people to be
in the position that they are today because we took so many of
the hard knocks. We withstood the embarrassments and every-
thing. It’s like I have told many of them that we had more
... what is that we had in the PX?

Mr. Brown: We had more money and everything in there.

Sergeant Robinson: No, no, I’m talking about what the
companies had ... well, the 10th Cavalry had more of it in the
PX than anybody on the post. What am I trying to say? They
took it and bought furniture with it and all like that. What am
I trying to say?

Mr. Hollowell: You mean “fund” [Unit Fund]?

Sergeant Robinson: Funds, yes. But at that time, I told lots
of these people today that’s wearing bars on their shoulders
that, at one time, in this very ... where the PX is stationed up
there in the big building where the library is now... that we,
as black men couldn’t go in there and eat an ice cream cone,
see.

Of course, I don’t hold that as a thing for them to go by
because that was, as I explained to you about it, as being the
law of the land. I’m just saying those are some of the things
that we had to contend with. We wanted a package of cigarettes.
We’d go in there and buy them, but we couldn’t smoke it in
there. Mr. Hollowell and myself have been sitting in the choir—
we both sing in the choir at church—on military day, we look
out and see these colonels and these black young ladies,
captains and majors, and so forth, and it makes you feel so
good on the inside that we made it—broke the ice—made it pos-
sible for them to be in that position. They are reaping the


12

Black cavalryman caring for colonel’s horse

Black cavalryman training a horse at Fort Leavenworth

Frontier Army Museum

Frontier Army Museum


Buffalo Soldiers

at Fort Leavenworth
in the 1930s

and early
1940s

Interviews conducted by Major George E. Knapp

Combat Studies Institute
U.S. Army Command and General Staff College
Fort Leavenworth, Kansas 66027-6900


33

Sergeant Robinson: PFC. This man went on vacation, and I
took his place. The man in charge was well pleased with my
work. In the meantime, the man in charge himself, eventually,
he wanted to go on leave. In the meantime, something happened
with the chief clerk that left me there all alone. Mr. Williams
said, “What are we going to do?” Captain Bly said, “Robinson
will take care of it.” He said, “Yes, all right then.”

So, I was there alone, with the exception of the truckdriver.
I had made out all the invoices and everything, made out the
shipments and all of that for about almost four days—just
alone—taking the chief’s job.

Captain Knapp: How long had you been there?
Sergeant Robinson: Let me see...I guess practically a year.
Captain Knapp: So, you had a chance to learn the job.

Sergeant Robinson: Yes, I was learning it. Otherwise, I
applied myself. That’s all I thought about was that these people
were helping me and I am going to try to learn this.

Captain Knapp: And you didn’t have to work in the stables.

Sergeant Robinson: No, I never did go back to the stables
again. I held the job down, and the chief warrant officer, Cleve-
land Williams, he was in charge of the Book Department,
commended me. He commended me for the work that I had
done, and he told Captain Bly after Cap came back what a
wonderful job I had done and “we don’t want to lose Rob.”
They trained me for that job. When the war broke... no, no,
not when the war broke out, but when things were going on in
Europe, Hitler was marching into Czechoslovakia, things began
to move here.

Captain Knapp: Going toward war.

Sergeant Robinson: Yeah, that’s when the 10th Cavalry, what
was that °40...?

Mr. Hollowell: Uh huh, 740.
Sergeant Robinson: They began to get shook up.

Captain Knapp: They brought the squadrons back together out
at Fort Riley, or Camp Funston as they called it.

Sergeant Robinson: Well no, not at that time, was it?
Speaking of the 10th Cavalry proper here.

Captain Knapp: Ah, the squadron here.
Sergeant Robinson: Yeah, they became, you know, getting


21

Randall Royston was a private soldier along with me, retired
as a major.

10th Cavalry Yearbook, 1941

Staff Sergeant William R. Royston



FOREWORD

Military historians have often focused on the period between the world wars
in order to examine issues such as preparedness, doctrine, technology, and poli-
tics. Less often have we looked closely at social issues peculiar to the military
in that period. These interviews do that for a small segment of the Army—
black soldiers at Fort Leavenworth in the 1930s.

In the fall of 1989, the Combat Studies Institute decided to conduct a tele-
vision interview with veterans of the 10th Cavalry (Buffalo Soldiers). Captain
(now Major) George E. Knapp, an instructor at the U.S. Army Command and
General Staff College (USACGSC), conducted background research and pre-
liminary interviews with several veteran Buffalo Soldiers living in the Leaven-
worth area. Finally, on 19 October 1989, Captain Knapp and four veterans of
the 10th Cavalry met in the television studio at Bell Hall for a videotape session.
This is a transcription of that session.

During the interview, the four veterans reminisced about their service at Fort
Leavenworth and how they felt about their role in the history of the United
States Army. Harry Hollowell remembered much about his fellow soldiers and
the officers who commanded them. Elmer Robinson talked mostly about his
work in the USACGSC bookstore and those with whom he worked. Julian Brown
told about working in the stables and as a striker (a soldier who worked daily
in the home of an officer for extra pay). Lorn Brown described the details of
taking care of the officers’ polo ponies and later breaking in new mounts for
the regiment. Each veteran focused on different aspects of the 10th Cavalry’s
service at Fort Leavenworth.

Out of these reminiscences clearly emerges one impression: these men are
proud of their military service and, more specifically, proud of the contributions
that they have made toward equality in the Army. They believe that they have
played an important role in the evolution of Army race relations and that they
have seen the results of that evolution during their lifetimes. They remain proud
veterans, aware of their contribution to the history of the United States Army.

Van
li
April 1991 ROGER J. SPILLER
Director

Combat Studies Institute

CSI publications cover a variety of military history topics. The views expressed herein are those of the
author and not necessarily those of the Department of Army or the Department of Defense.



aoe

10th Cavalry football team playing on Gruber Field

Mr. Hollowell: Both were horseshoers.

Sergeant Robinson: Much of a man, had hands like elephant
hands.

Mr. Hollowell: Fitzgerald played on the football team. I think
he played guard.

A young fellow who lives in town now—his name is Young
[his father was a 10th cavalryman]—played end on the football
team. Skip Young they used to call him.

Another fellow who lives in town, at least the son of the
fellow who played ...name is Oliver. Oliver, I think, was a
GS-12 or 13 up here in Bell Hall. Well, he just retired, but he
was a computer specialist. His dad was in the 10th Cavalry.

At any rate, my main thinking is a team that plays well,
fights well. Its main function is to stimulate pride within the
regiment, and it establishes a type of esprit de corps which is
good for the units just like the World Series is to the nation.
The competition between regiments and agencies is good for the
people. It’s a morale builder. That’s sorta the way I...I like
sports.


29

I said I was enjoying it so well because everything he said
that way was true.

Captain Knapp: This brings back a lot of memories for you.
Sergeant Robinson: Yes, it does.

Captain Knapp: You were in the stables for a short time when
you first joined the 10th, but you got another job in the Book
Department. Tell us about that.

Sergeant Robinson: Yes, I was assigned to the polo stables.
Now, it’s called...let me see, what is the polo stable called
now?

Captain Knapp: Flint Gym, Flint Hall.

Sergeant Robinson: Yes, Flint Hall. That was the polo stables
at that time.

Captain Knapp: It was a service club for a while too, I think.

Sergeant Robinson: Yes, it was. It was a service club in 1940.
I believe that’s when the 10th Cavalry, with their own labor,
made it into a service club. But the time when I was there, it
was the polo stables and we had, as Sergeant Brown pointed
out, we had four horses apiece to take care of. I worked there
for a little while. Finally, one day I was summoned to come
over to the orderly room and said that the commanding officer
wanted to see me. Well, that was Captain Willey, I believe.
Captain Willey was his name. I said to myself, “What have I
done? What does he want to see me about?”

Captain Knapp: You thought you were in trouble.

Sergeant Robinson: Yes...no, I didn’t think I was in any
trouble, but what could he want to see me about? I went in to
the first sergeant who said, “Captain Willey wants to see you.”
I said, “What about?” He said, “I don’t know.” Of course, I
think he knew. Anyway, I walked in and saluted Captain Willey,
and he said, “Private Robinson, I’ve got an assignment for you.”

I said, “An assignment?” He said, “Yes.” He said, “Mister
Williams, the chief warrant officer at the Book Department, sent
down here to fill a vacancy with an honest person to work at
the Book Department as a clerk.” I said, “Captain, I have no
experience as a...no clerical experiences. I have nothing like
that.”

The man up there was a retired black man who had retired
as a first lieutenant. “Sergeant Bly,” they called him. His nick-
name, they called him “Captain Bly.” He was in charge of the


et:
Remount training at Camp Funston, 1940—41

10th Cavalry Yearbook, 1941, photos


24

Here, I have a picture of a former 10th cavalryman in the
person of my brother. Here, he is as a member of a tank de-
stroyer unit as a first lieutenant. I think he got out as a captain;
however, he became a lawyer and a very famous lawyer. His
area of work was that in civil rights. They called him Mr. Civil
Rights. [reading] “Hollowell Champions Civil Rights in Georgia.”
He was a member of the law firm that put the first black
student in Georgia University [University of Georgia?]. He was
also the regional director of the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, the Southern District, which included several
[Southern] states. He was commissioned [as an officer] ... his
charge was confirmed by Theodore Roosevelt Jr. Here’s a picture
at his confirmation.

This is an interesting article. It’s The Kansas City Star,
Monday, January 16, 1989. It’s an article in regard to Martin
Luther King Jr. The picture here is captioned, “John F. Kennedy
phone call to Coretta King contributed to his narrow victory
for president in 1969 [1960].” The article says:

Donald Hollowell, King’s chief attorney presented character
addresses and a host of arguments but [Judge] Mitchell banged the
gavel, revoked King’s probation, and ordered him to serve four
months at hard labor on a road gang beginning immediately.

Captain Knapp: So your brother was Dr. King’s attorney.

The officers of Headquarters Company, 795th Tank Destroyer Battalion, at Camp
Custer, Michigan, in early 1943. Lieutenant Donald Hollowell is fourth from the
left.

:
£
x
y


Funston Hall (top) and McNair Hall (bottom), 10th Cavalry headquarters and barracks

In the meantime, one of the fellows was there, and my dad
asked him to open his locker—his wall locker with his clothes
displayed in it. I looked in there, and the uniforms were hanging
so nice, everything was right in its place, you know. I was
really impressed with that. We looked at his foot locker, and it
was likewise. Everything was so nice and neat. I just simply
drew a mental picture of myself being in the 10th Cavalry.

I asked him, “Who do I have to see to get into the 10th
Cavalry?” At that time, they had the regimental sergeant major,


46

Captain Knapp: I’ve seen a poster, an old poster, that’s got a
picture of you. “Hollowell leads 10th Cav to another victory,”
something like that.

Mr. Hollowell: Right. That’s true.

Captain Knapp: Let’s talk a little bit about family life here at
Fort Leavenworth. Now, none of you were married while you
were at Fort Leavenworth, but all of you, I think—I don’t know
about you Sergeant Brown—but I know you [Sergeant Robinson]
married a local girl and, Mr. Hollowell, did your wife come from
the Leavenworth area?

Mr. Hollowell: She taught school here in the Leavenworth
public school system for twelve years prior to our getting
married.

Captain Knapp: Were many of the soldiers in the 10th Cavalry
married when you were here? Where did they live? How were
their families kept and all that?

Sergeant Brown: A lot of them lived in town.

Mr. Hollowell: Most of them.

Sergeant Brown: Right over the hill here, they got this hous-
ing area where they had a kinda... what do you call them
[the group joins in with ‘‘cantonment area’’]. A lot of them
stayed over there.

Captain Knapp: Where one of the enlisted housing areas is
now at Fort Leavenworth.
Sergeant Brown: Yes, over there by that school.

Captain Knapp: Over by... OK, down by Patton Junior High
School.

Sergeant Brown: A lot of them lived there, and a lot of them
lived in town. Those that weren’t married, like Rob here and
Brown, me, we had shacks ‘in town since we weren’t married.

[Laughter]
Sergeant Robinson: Yeah, the old “shack-pappy trail.”
[More laughter from the group]
Yes, that’s what it was. I was telling Harry that winter’s
coming on. This here sewage coverage that runs across the

street coming to the fort, you know, going round by Bluntville,
that thing, I could walk that thing at night.

Captain Knapp: With your eyes closed.


48

Mr. Brown: Yeah, if you go out the front way, the main thing
... Well, the captain or anybody could pass you there and you
better have your tie on and all that. Who wants to have a tie
on, as hot as it was, with that blouse on... .

Sergeant Robinson: Oh yes, I see what he’s talking about.

Mr. Brown: With that Sam Browne belt around your waist,
and there you sweating up a breeze and walking to town.

Sergeant Robinson: Yes, well, you see, going through the
“shack-pappy trail,” you could relax, undo your tie, unbutton
your blouse and put your blouse on your shoulder because it
was an all-wooded area through there, see. But about the time
you got to Metropolitan, you had to put that back on again,
when you're in town. I see what you’re speaking about.

Mr. Brown: I’d sneak in down below.

Mr. Hollowell: On the other hand, right here where Bell Hall
is was what they called Arsenal Hill. There may have been
perhaps a half-dozen sets of quarters in which some of the
higher-ranking enlisted men lived right here.

My first sergeant, Chappie Brown, lived in one of those little
concrete buildings just as you come in, let’s see, the hospital.
There is the hospital and coming north, where that insurance
agency is, you come around that back gate and come around
that... the commissary used to be down in that south[west]
end. But you come around that... you continue north and, of
course, you’re going to run into the back area of the... come
around the little curve and make that left turn, I don’t know
what that’s called but there’s two little sets of quarters there.
That’s where my first sergeant lived. [Mr. Hollowell is talking
about the quarters at the corner of Biddle Boulevard and Organ
Avenue.]

Mr. Brown: You know what that used to be before it was
quarters?

Mr. Hollowell: What was it?

Mr. Brown: That was’a milking barn.

Mr. Hollowell: Yeah, something like that.

Captain Knapp: They had cattle over there?

Mr. Brown: Yeah, they had cattle over in the pastures.
Captain Knapp: About where the old bakery was?

Mr. Brown: That’s right. The bakery was over there, and the


i

The 9th Cavalry Band plays at a polo match between the Fort Leavenworth and
Fort Riley polo teams. Names on the scoreboard are Captains Wood, Davis, Truscott,
Gay, Wilkinson, and Smith and Majors Swift and Brown.

Mr. Brown: Yes, but I was a groom first.

Captain Knapp: Tell us about being a groom, and tell us also
about being a striker.

Mr. Brown: I was a groom. I had six horses. We kept those
just for the officers to ride.

Captain Knapp: These are not the polo horses.

Mr. Brown: No, they were not polo [horses]. These were for
officers to ride just on classes. They’d have their class, and
you'd have to get the horses ready for them to ride. I done that
for a while. Then, later on, the stable sergeant told me that
he’d let me go up and be an instructor for the ladies riding
class. That would give me a little more money; you know I’m
going to take it.

Captain Knapp: You got paid extra for doing that.
Mr. Brown: I got paid extra for doing it—three dollars.
Captain Knapp: Three dollars a month?

Mr. Brown: Yes, that’s good money. So, I done that for a while.
Well, everything was nice, and then, I thought I could do a
little bit better. So, I went up, put in, and got to be a striker. I
went to the officer’s quarters and things and cleaned and done
whatever. That was fifteen dollars more.