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86–958 PDF 2003

S. Hrg. 108–48

NOMINATIONS OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN,

JANET HALE, AND LINDA M. SPRINGER

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON THE

NOMINATIONS OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, JANET HALE 

TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR MANAGEMENT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND LINDA M. SPRINGER TO BE 

CONTROLLER OF THE OFFICE OF FEDERAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT 

FOR THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET

FEBRUARY 27, 2003

Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman 

TED STEVENS, Alaska 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota 

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois 

JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire 

RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Deleware 

MARK DAYTON, Minnesota 

FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey 

MARK PRYOR, Arkansas 

MICHAEL D. BOPP, Staff Director and Counsel 

JOHANNA L. HARDY, Senior Counsel 

JOYCE A. RECHTSCHAFFEN, Minority Staff Director and Counsel 

LAWRENCE B. NOVEY, Minority Counsel 

SUSAN E. PROPPER, Minority Counsel 

JENNIFER E. HAMILTON, Minority Research Assistant 

DARLA D. CASSELL, Chief Clerk 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Collins ................................................................................................. 1

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 2

Senator Lautenberg .......................................................................................... 15

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 17

Senator Pryor .................................................................................................... 20

Prepared statement: 

Senator Voinovich ............................................................................................. 29

WITNESSES 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2003

Hon. Kay Bailey Hutchison, a U.S. Senator from the State of Texas ................. 3

Hon. John Cornyn, a U.S. Senator from the State of Texas ................................ 3

Hon. Elizabeth Dole, a U.S. Senator from the State of North Carolina ............. 5

Hon. Clark Kent Ervin to be Inspector General for the Department of Homeland Security ........................................................................................................ 6

Janet Hale to be Under Secretary for Management for the Department of 

Homeland Security ............................................................................................... 8

Linda M. Springer to be Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management for the Office of Management and Budget ............................................... 21

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Cornyn, Hon. John: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 3

Dole, Hon. Elizabeth: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5

Ervin, Hon. Clark Kent: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 30

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 32

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 38

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 124

Hale, Janet: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 8

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 55

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 57

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 63

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 134

Hutchison, Hon. Kay Bailey: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5

Springer, Linda M.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 21

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 105

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 107

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 114

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 136

(1)

NOMINATIONS OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN, 

JANET HALE, AND LINDA M. SPRINGER 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2003

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:03 a.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M. Collins, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Collins, Coleman, Akaka, Carper, Lautenberg, 

and Pryor. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN COLLINS 

Chairman COLLINS. The Committee will be in order. 

Today the Committee of Governmental Affairs is holding a hearing to consider three nominations, Clark Kent Ervin to be the Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security; Janet 

Hale to be the Under Secretary for Management at the Department 

for Homeland Security; and Linda Springer to be the Controller of 

the Office of Federal Financial Management at the Office of Management and Budget. 

In January the Committee approved the nominations of Governor 

Ridge to be the Secretary of the new Department and Gordon England to be its first Deputy Secretary. I am pleased today that the 

Committee is considering the next set of Homeland Security nominees, Mr. Ervin and Ms. Hale, both of whom appear to have strong 

credentials and relevant experience to the positions for which they 

have been nominated. 

The Department of Homeland Security officially opened its doors 

on January 24. The establishment of the Department is the most 

significant government restructuring in more than 50 years. It involves the merger of some 22 agencies and 170,000 employees. 

The creation of the Department is an enormous undertaking that 

will require a team effort to ensure its success. As part of that 

team, the Under Secretary for Management, who will be responsible for the organizational issues in the new Department, will 

have a particularly challenging job. 

With this massive merger, the Under Secretary for Management 

will have to work to integrate disparate management, human resources, and information technology systems. Ms. Hale’s extensive 

background in management in both the public and the private sectors appears to be ideal for undertaking the integration and management of these issues. 

2

Another critical member of the Homeland Security team is the 

Inspector General. For more than 20 years the Inspectors General 

have been the watchdogs for Congress and the taxpayers in the ongoing battle against waste, fraud, and abuse. The DHS IG will face 

extraordinary challenges. Audit and investigative components from 

the various agencies must be integrated into a single entity within 

the Department. 

The IG is also responsible for performing annual audits of the 

Coast Guard to ensure that its new Homeland Security responsibilities do not divert attention from its traditional roles, including 

vital search and rescue missions, which are of particular importance to my State. 

Both the Under Secretary for Management and the Inspector 

General will be crucial to the successful organization and proper 

functioning of this vital new Department. 

I am also pleased that today we will consider the nomination of 

Linda Springer to be the Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management at OMB. The Controller acts as the deputy and 

principal advisor to the Deputy Director for Management in carrying out the financial management duties as outlined in the Chief 

Financial Officers Act of 1990. 

This position is critical to ensuring that the financial management systems in the Executive Branch are efficient, accurate, and 

reliable. Ms. Springer’s background again appears to be tailormade for this position. 

Before turning to my colleagues, I want to recognize Senator Carper for any opening comments that he may have, and to welcome 

him today. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER 

Senator CARPER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

And to our witnesses and to our colleagues, it is great to see each 

of you and I am looking forward to the hearing. 

I am going to ask a rhetorical question. I know this is not a time 

to ask questions. But I see Senator Dole here and I have always 

wondered this. 

For years I have told this story about when you had been nominated to be a cabinet secretary by former President Bush, and you 

were presented to the Senate by your husband, Senator Dole. And 

I am told that he said to his colleagues, he quipped, I regret that 

I have but one wife to give to my country. Is that true? 

Senator DOLE. To my country’s infrastructure. I think he also 

mentioned something about my biscuit recipe being something that 

might be used for potholes, too. We had a lot of fun with that. 

Senator CARPER. Good. He has to be a hard act to follow. I am 

delighted to be here and look forward to the testimony and to having a chance to vote for our nominees. Thank you for your willingness to serve. 

Chairman COLLINS. I very much appreciate the Senator from 

Delaware clearing up that essential question that we have all wondered about throughout the year. 

Senator CARPER. I have others, too. 

Chairman COLLINS. It is now my pleasure to recognize my distinguished colleagues for purposes of an introduction. We are very 

3

pleased to have the senior Senator from Texas, Senator Kay Bailey 

Hutchison here today, as well as our new colleague, Senator John 

Cornyn. I would ask Senator Hutchison if she would proceed. 

STATEMENT OF HON. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS 

Senator HUTCHISON. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Bear with me a little bit because I had some dental work this 

morning and I am not speaking as clearly as I hope I usually do. 

I am very pleased to be here for Clark Kent Ervin, someone I 

have known for years and years. And he comes to this post, I think, 

with all of the right qualifications. First, of course, is academic 

qualifications, having gotten his bachelor of arts degree and his law 

degree from Harvard with honors, and he was a Rhodes Scholar. 

But then he went on into the legal field, distinguishing himself 

in that field and in several areas of our State service, including 

working with my colleague when he was Attorney General, and I 

know he will elaborate on that. 

But I think, even more to the point now, I cannot imagine a more 

important job than the Inspector General of the Department of 

Homeland Security because with the new emphasis that we are 

putting on terrorism, counterterrorism, and intelligence gathering 

in this agency, I think the role of Inspector General is going to be 

so very important. 

And he has the experience for the job. He has been Inspector 

General at the Department of State, and he has been Acting Inspector General since the Department of Homeland Security came 

into being. So I cannot think of a better person for this job and 

someone that I know personally will go the extra mile to do everything just right in this agency. 

And I am pleased to recommend him to you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much, Senator Hutchison. I 

want to express admiration for your stamina and ability to withstand pain and still keep all of your Senate commitments, as well. 

It is typical of your extraordinary dedication to your job and the 

nominee is indeed fortunate to have your endorsement. 

Senator Cornyn. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN CORNYN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF TEXAS 

Senator CORNYN. Madam Chairman, thank you for letting me appear here today with my senior Senator and my good friend, Clark 

Ervin, on this day when he comes before you seeking Senate confirmation as Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security. 

When I was Attorney General for the 4 years preceding my service in the U.S. Senate, I recruited what I consider to be the best 

and brightest that our State had to offer when it came to my executive staff at the AG’s office. In that pursuit I think I accomplished 

it, at least in part, when I convinced Clark to come to work with 

me as Deputy Attorney General, as General Counsel, and Director 

of Administration in my office before he was whisked away to 

Washington, DC to work at the State Department. 

4

While serving as my Deputy Attorney General, Clark tirelessly 

sought to ensure that taxpayer money was spent efficiently, effectively, and wisely. People that come into contact with Clark quickly 

realize, though, that he is more than just an excellent manager. 

Clark spent considerable time and effort helping make Texas a better place to work and live for some of the most vulnerable in our 

State. 

In one instance, Clark recognized that many very helpful government programs for children were not being utilized, particularly for 

children at risk. Parents, teachers, and other adults coming into 

regular contact with children were simply unaware of programs 

that existed to provide such necessary items as warm coats, dental 

services, and the like. 

Clark was also the one who introduced me to then-General Colin 

Powell’s work on America’s Promise, a wonderful organization that 

continues even today. And recognizing Clark’s talents, he was 

whisked away by now Secretary of State Powell, who asked him to 

come to the Department of State as his Inspector General. 

Clark will be embarrassed to know that I will recount one story 

I remember of his meeting with then-designee for Secretary of 

State Colin Powell. When after meeting Clark and being very impressed with him personally and professionally General Powell 

asked him if he was married and pointed out or just dropped the 

idea that he happened to have two daughters that were not. It may 

have just been coincidence in that conversation, but Clark has 

since married someone else, for which we are very happy and congratulate him, and I know he is happy as well. 

As Inspector General at the State Department, Clark supervised 

inspections for diplomatic posts around the world to determine 

whether policy goals were being achieved and ensure the protection 

of our personnel, facilities, and intelligence information. 

Based on his dedication to public service, his love of this great 

country, and past success, the President has now nominated Clark 

for this very challenging position. Everybody who knows Clark recognizes his can-do attitude and I know that will serve him well as 

he works with Secretary Ridge to shape disparate organizations 

into a smooth functioning whole safeguarding the American people. 

I want to thank you, Madam Chairman, for giving me these few 

minutes to offer my enthusiastic and unequivocal support to this 

wonderful nominee, my friend Clark Ervin, to serve as Inspector 

General of the Department of Homeland Security. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much. I want to thank you 

for your personal endorsement and your firsthand knowledge of the 

nominee is very helpful. 

I know that both of the Senators from Texas have very tight 

schedules and we would excuse you at this point, if necessary. 

Senator CARPER. Madam Chairman. 

Chairman COLLINS. The Senator from Delaware. 

Senator CARPER. Before the Senators leave, something that happened last night has just sort of come into focus for me. Last night 

I got a phone call at home from Secretary Powell and he does not 

often call me at home. I thought he was calling to talk about the 

situation in the Middle East or Korea or whatever. 

5

And he asked if I was on this Committee and I said that I was. 

And he said if a fellow named Clark Kent Ervin comes before the 

Committee, ask him if he is happily married. [Laughter.] 

Chairman COLLINS. You need to get more sleep, Senator. [Laughter.] 

Senator CARPER. I told him I would ask. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. That can be your first question 

for the day, but we will not deduct it from your time. 

Again, I want to thank both Senators from Texas for taking the 

time to be with us this morning to share their thoughts. 

It is now my great pleasure to call upon the Senator from North 

Carolina, Senator Dole, to introduce Ms. Hale. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ELIZABETH DOLE, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA 

Senator DOLE. Thank you. Madam Chairman, Members of the 

Committee, it is my great pleasure to introduce Janet Hale of Virginia as the President’s nominee for Under Secretary for Management for the Department of Homeland Security. 

Despite the fact that she is not from the great State of North 

Carolina, a forgivable flaw, I am delighted to recommend Janet to 

you for this very important position. I have known her for many 

years and in many different capacities and I know that she is extremely well qualified and well prepared for this position. 

And Senator Lautenberg, you might remember our work together 

on aviation security, as well as age 21, the drinking law. Janet was 

at my side when we were working on those issues and it was a 

pleasure to work with you that time. 

Janet’s resume includes numerous positions of significant responsibility in both the public and the private sectors. More importantly, her reputation and the results of her work are distinguished 

by the respect of her peers. Her accomplishments are numerous on 

behalf of the public and the institutions that she has so devotedly 

served for over 2 decades. 

As you well know, the duties of the Under Secretary for Management are critically important to the success of this new Department. The scope of responsibility is broad indeed, including budget 

development and execution, human resource management, information technology architecture and integration, procurement, and systems management and administrative services. Janet Hale’s career 

has given her a depth of experience in each of these areas. 

I first worked with Janet when I served as Secretary of Transportation and she was a key member of my senior management 

team, serving as Assistant Secretary for Budget and Programs and 

managing the annual $26 billion budget. 

I was so proud and pleased for Janet when she moved on to the 

Office of Management and Budget to serve as the Associate Director for Economics and Government. There she was responsible for 

the Departments of Transportation, Treasury, Commerce, Justice 

and 25 smaller agencies, managing a $70 billion annual Federal 

budget. 

Over the years her management experience and portfolio have 

grown significantly and in her most recent position as Assistant 

Secretary of Budget, Technology and Finance at the Department of 

6

1 The prepared statement of Mr. Ervin appears in the Appendix on page 30. 

The biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 32. 

Responses to pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 38. 

Responses to post-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 124. 

Homeland Security, her job description called for development and 

execution of a $475 billion budget. 

Janet also comes with private sector management experience, 

having served as Executive Vice President of the University of 

Pennsylvania. As the Chief Administrative Officer of the University, Janet was responsible for management of human resources, finances, facilities, and safety. While there she reengineered all core 

business functions, resulting in significant cost reduction and improvements in efficiency. 

It is important to highlight Janet’s recent experience with systems integration, both at the Department of Health and Human 

Services and the House of Representatives, where she designed 

new financial accountability systems and unified the IT systems. 

This experience will serve her well as the Department of Homeland 

Security integrates the operations of 22 agencies. 

By temperament, talent, and experience Janet Hale is a proven 

and effective leader in institutional change management. As you 

can see, most of her career has been dedicated to serving the public 

and I believe we are fortunate indeed that she is willing to perform 

this important job for our country at such a critical time. 

Madam Chairman and Members of the Committee, it is my privilege to present Janet Hale. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much, Senator Dole. Your 

endorsement means a great deal to the Committee and I know it 

does to the nominee as well. And we would be happy to excuse you 

also at this point. 

Mr. Ervin and Ms. Hale have filed responses to biographical 

questions. 

Senator CARPER. It is going to be an interesting hearing. 

Chairman COLLINS. For those of you in the audience who are not 

aware of the Senate’s schedule, we were in until 1 a.m. last night. 

They have filed responses to biographical and financial questionnaires, answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the Committee, and had their financial statements reviewed by the Office 

of Government Ethics. Without objection, this information will be 

made part of the hearing record with the exception of the financial 

data which are on file and available for public inspection in the 

Committee offices. 

Our Committee rules require that all witnesses at nomination 

hearings give their testimony under oath, so I would ask that you 

both stand and raise your right hand. 

[Witnesses sworn.] 

Mr. Ervin, do you have a statement you would like to make? 

Mr. ERVIN. Yes, Madam Chairman. 

Chairman COLLINS. Please proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN 1 TO BE INSPECTOR 

GENERAL FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Mr. ERVIN. Good morning, Chairman Collins and other Members 

of the Committee. I am grateful to you for holding this hearing 

7

today on my nomination to serve as the Inspector General of the 

Department of Homeland Security. 

Let me begin by expressing my thanks and appreciation to President Bush for the confidence in and support for me that he has 

shown by once again nominating me for a high Federal position. I 

also thank, of course, Senators Hutchison and Cornyn for taking 

time out of their very busy schedules to be here today on my behalf 

and for their extraordinarily kind words of support. 

Let me take a minute, if I may, also to introduce those members 

of my family who could be present today. I am joined by my wife, 

Carolyn Harris, and by my parents-in-law, Barbara and Harold 

Harris, as well. 

I am humbled, gratified, and excited by the prospect, if confirmed, of serving as the first Inspector General of the newest cabinet department representing, as you say, the largest reorganization 

of the Federal Government in more than half a century and 

charged with a mission of paramount importance, protecting our 

homeland against terrorist attack. 

Since being so designated by President Bush late last month, I 

have served as the Acting Inspector General to the new Department. Over the course of the first few weeks I have had a number 

of occasions to speak to and to interact with both Secretary Ridge 

and Deputy Secretary England. On several such occasions each of 

them has both privately and publicly stressed their support for me 

personally, and their appreciation of role of the Inspector General 

as an independent, objective, analyst, consultant, and constructive 

critic of the Department’s programs and operations. To their credit, 

they have sought to involve me at the front end as the Department 

begins its operations, as opposed to my having to come in after the 

fact to conduct an inspection, audit, or investigation and finding 

problems that could be minimized if caught early or, better still, 

avoided altogether. Based on my experience so far with the Secretary, the Deputy Secretary, and other members of the senior 

management team, I expect to have a close and collaborative working relationship with them. 

As I believe that I demonstrated during the course of my tenure 

as Inspector General of the Department of State and the Broadcasting Board of Governors, I am deeply committed to the mission 

of inspectors general. As I see it, through inspection, evaluations, 

audits and investigations, it is to help the departments for which 

we have oversight responsibility achieve their respective missions 

in as efficient, effective, and economical manner as possible. 

The Department of Homeland Security faces a number of significant management challenges. First, of course, it is a new Department. Second, as of March 1 it will be a huge Department, the 

third largest in the Federal Government with more than 170,000 

employees and a budget of more than $30 billion. It will be composed of 22 different Federal agencies or parts thereof, each of 

which will bring its own set of management challenges. 

And last but not least, and as noted above, its mission, protecting 

our country against terrorist attack, could not be more important. 

It is no exaggeration to say that the fate of our Nation depends 

upon the degree to which the Department succeeds in accomplishing its mission. And in seeking to accomplish a mission such 

8

1 The prepared statement of Ms. Hale appears in the Appendix on page 55. 

The biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 57. 

Responses to pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 63. 

Responses to post-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 134. 

as this, the Department cannot afford to waste one minute or one 

dollar. 

The Inspector General will play a key role in evaluating the degree to which the Department is accomplishing its mission and in 

recommending ways for it to do so as efficiently, effectively, and 

economically as possible. 

I pledge to each of you to be independent, objective, thorough, 

apolitical, and when need be, critical of the Department’s programs 

and operations. I also pledge to be responsive, equally so, to both 

the Secretary and the Congress. I fully appreciate the fact that, if 

confirmed, I have a responsibility to keep the Congress, as well as 

the Secretary, thoroughly and promptly informed of significant 

findings and developments. 

One of the several gratifying aspects of my relatively short tenure as Inspector General at the State Department and the Broadcasting Board of Governors was developing a close and productive 

working relationship with certain Congressional members and 

staffers. Over the course of my tenure, the number of Congressional requests for work products and hearings steadily increased, 

which I took to be a measure of the Congress’s confidence in me 

and the team that I had assembled. I hope to maintain Congress’ 

confidence in me if confirmed for this position, and I would look 

forward to working closely with you, Chairman Collins, and other 

Members of the Committee or staff, and any other members and 

staffers who have an interest in Homeland Security-related matters. 

With that, thank you again, Chairman Collins, and other Members of the Committee, for holding this hearing today. And I look 

forward to answering any questions that any of you may have. 

Many thanks. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. 

Ms. Hale, do you have a statement? 

Ms. HALE. Yes, I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JANET HALE 1 TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR 

MANAGEMENT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Ms. HALE. Thank you very much, Senator Collins and distinguished Members of this Committee. 

I, too, would like to take an opportunity to introduce some folks 

that are with me. Unfortunately, my mother is in Florida, my 

brother is in Southern California, but I have some friends here. I 

will spare them. 

But there are some people that work with both Clark and myself 

at the Department of Homeland Security that came to show their 

support for us and to understand the value of the Department that 

you all created here. And I would personally like to thank them 

and recognize that they have come up with us today. 

I obviously thank Senator Dole for her kind comments that she 

offered on my behalf. 

9

The primary mission of the new Department is clear, to deter, 

detect, prepare for, and respond to terrorist attacks and other 

threats against our country and our people. To accomplish this, the 

Department will need budgetary and human capital resources, 

technology development, and an efficient management and infrastructure support. 

The position I have been nominated to is charged with just these 

responsibilities. I am fortunate to have served in such capacities in 

both the public and private sector. I have had a unique opportunity 

to serve from the program level at a department, the departmental 

level, as Secretary Dole referenced, Office of Management and 

Budget, and here on Capitol Hill. I hope this has prepared me for 

the challenges that we are facing. 

Over the past few months, many people inside and outside government have highlighted the enormous management challenges 

facing the new Department. Merging 22 agencies and bringing 

nearly 180,000 Federal workers under one Department will not be 

an easy task. However with challenges comes opportunities. If confirmed, I look forward to helping the Department establish an organizational culture that values collaboration, interoperability, and 

information sharing to take advantages of these opportunities. 

There are several critical things that the Under Secretary for 

Management will need to focus on as a leader. First, all the management functions must directly support the operational mission 

and add value to the efforts of our men and women on the front 

line who are protecting our homeland and the American people. 

Second, the Under Secretary of Management must work closely 

with the four directors, the senior managers, and the IG to be sure 

that we are enforcing and implementing the Department’s missions. 

Third, the Under Secretary for Management must recognize the 

importance of leveraging tremendous resources and capabilities of 

these incoming agencies for the benefit of the entire Department. 

The most important resources, of course, are our Federal employees 

who deserve the best tools available in order to ensure that they 

can effectively perform the homeland security and other critical 

missions. 

As Secretary Ridge said, new funding, technology and equipment 

are important, but no more so than the people who are willing to 

serve in this new Department. If confirmed, I am committed to ensuring that the leadership of the Department maintains continuous 

effective, two-way communication with our employees throughout 

all the organization. 

Finally, the Under Secretary must ensure that the management 

systems and processes provide good stewardship of government resources. The Department has a tremendous amount of resources 

and responsibility. If confirmed, I promise that I will honor those. 

I have been truly privileged to be nominated for this position and 

if the Senate should confirm me, I welcome the opportunity to work 

with Congress, with you particularly, to accomplish the important 

missions that we are charged in this statute. 

I look forward to answering your questions and I am pleased to 

be here today sitting next to my colleague, Clark Ervin. Thank you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much, Ms. Hale. 

10

There are three standard questions that we ask of all nominees 

for the record and I am going to begin my questioning with those. 

First, is there anything that you are aware of in your background 

which might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to which you have been nominated? 

Mr. ERVIN. No. 

Ms. HALE. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. Second, do you know of anything personal or 

otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have 

been nominated? 

Mr. ERVIN. No. 

Ms. HALE. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. And finally, do you agree without reservation 

to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before 

any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Mr. ERVIN. Absolutely. 

Ms. HALE. Yes. 

Chairman COLLINS. Mr. Ervin, the General Accounting Office recently included the new Department of Homeland Security on its 

2003 high-risk list. The designation is based on three factors. First, 

it is an enormous undertaking that will take time to achieve in an 

effective and efficient manner. 

Second, the Department’s prospective components already face a 

wide array of existing management and operational challenges. 

And third, the failure to effectively carry out its mission exposes 

the Nation to potentially very serious consequences. 

If you are confirmed as IG, how will you seek to ensure that DHS 

addresses these concerns and challenges? And what is your response to the GAO’s listing the new Department on its high-risk 

list? 

Mr. ERVIN. Madam Chairman, I think the GAO has done a good 

job of identifying the significant challenges that face the Department. And if I were to do so on my own, I would have identified 

exactly those challenges. 

As to how, if confirmed, I would proceed to help the Department 

to address them, I would intend to have a very robust inspections, 

audit, and investigative team thanks to the various parts of Offices 

of Inspector General that I would inherit. I would seek to conduct 

inspections, evaluations, audits, and investigations where necessary with regard to those three areas of challenge. 

Furthermore, as I noted in my opening statement, to the credit 

of the Secretary and the Deputy Secretary, I have been involved to 

a significant degree at the front end, as the Department begins its 

operations, and I have sought to provide some advice and recommendations to the Secretary and other senior management so 

that at the very beginning of its operations issues can be avoided 

and a plan can be put in place to address these challenges and others. 

Chairman COLLINS. Mr. Ervin, some of the component agencies 

of the new Department are, frankly, troubled agencies and the Immigration and Naturalization Services is one that comes immediately to mind. The INS, for example, has had continual problems 

in managing its information technology resources that are critical 

11

to its ability to function effectively, particularly in a post-September 11 environment. 

The Department of Justice’s Inspector General, which has issued 

numerous reports on this, as well as GAO have made a series of 

recommendations designed to increase the effectiveness of the information technology practices at INS. As Inspector General, what 

would you do to ensure that we start to actually solve some of the 

problems that will be transferred to the new Department, particularly in the area of information technology? 

Mr. ERVIN. Madam Chairman, I note that there are about 87 different information systems in INS alone. The large number of information systems, the fact that those systems cannot communicate 

with each other, the security vulnerabilities that each of those systems has are all, as you say, issues in the information technology 

area that have been identified by my colleague, the DOJ Inspector 

General. 

I have had the benefit of a number of briefings, both from him 

personally and from other members of his team with regard to 

those issues and others that affect INS. I would propose to follow 

up on any outstanding recommendations with regard to those 

issues, if confirmed, and indeed I would expect to continue to do 

work in this area, both inspections and evaluations and audits, as 

INS becomes a part of the Department of Homeland Security. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Hale, one of the challenges facing the 

new Department is developing a flexible and appropriate personnel 

system. It is my understanding that the component agencies are 

bringing in diverse personnel systems. I believe that it is very important that the Federal employees unions be fully involved in this 

process. 

What are your plans for helping to integrate and develop a personnel system with the advice and in consultation with the Federal 

employee organizations? 

Ms. HALE. I share your concern about the disparate systems that 

we are inheriting from these agencies. It is truly a concern of our 

employees and I think it is a considerable concern of all of ours. 

I have met with the senior union leadership and I have pledged 

to them, as I will pledge to all of you because I know of your concern, that they will be an intricate part. We need to have employees on the front line, both union and nonunion representative. We 

need middle management, we need senior management to be sure 

that this system is developed with an understanding of their business needs, their responsibilities out there, and we have already 

begun the consultation with the unions because they will be critically involved in this project. 

Chairman COLLINS. You are going to have an enormous task covering many different areas with a large department, and a complicated reorganization. If you are confirmed, what would be your 

top priorities for the coming year? 

Ms. HALE. I think first and foremost is a smooth integration and 

transition of these agencies coming into the Department. They 

clearly have diverse cultures, long histories, and proud accomplishments, and we need to be sure that the men and women on the 

front line do not see any adverse impact as they are transferred to 

the new Department. 

12

We then need to be sure that our IT systems are there to support 

their mission. We need to be sure that we have a new human capital system and an integrated financial management system. 

So I think if I started with the transition and then moved to the 

serious task that you have identified, those would be my top priorities. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. Before I became a Senator I was a governor for 

8 years, the Governor of Delaware, and very active in the National 

Governors Association. 

One of the traits of the practices within the National Governors 

Association is when a person is elected as a new governor in November of a year, the National Governors Association hosts what 

we literally call a new governor’s school, and a school for governors 

and spouses. it is a wonderful time of sharing, where the old governors, the grizzled veterans, teach the new governors where they 

screwed up, the mistakes they made, and we learn from our experiences. 

Each of the new governors is appointed or assigned a mentor and 

it is a traditional organization. In my 8 years as governor, I got to 

be the mentor for Gary Locke from Washington, Governor Bob 

Wise from West Virginia, and also Governor Tom Ridge, which is 

unusual because you do not normally have someone from the opposite party. But he and I were colleagues and friends together in the 

House for a long time, came to the House together 20 years ago. 

Among the advice that I shared with Governor-elect Ridge, I said 

always surround yourself with people smarter than you. So my 

question for both of you is are you both smarter than Tom Ridge? 

[Laughter.] 

Ms. HALE. Clark, that is yours. 

Mr. ERVIN. I certainly am not, Senator. 

Ms. HALE. If I can follow your advice, I will not answer because 

I think the guy is a great leader and I am proud to be part of this 

team, but I hope that I will put people smarter than me as my 

chief human capital officer and my CIO and CFO. 

Senator CARPER. That is a great answer. 

Let us talk about team building. Can you talk to us about the 

nature of the teams that you will build and lead in your respective 

new assignments, if confirmed? 

Mr. ERVIN. Senator, I will inherit if confirmed, about 457 employees from various offices of inspector general. The FEMA Office of 

Inspector General will be coming to the DHS office of Inspector 

General in its entirety, about 200 people. I will be getting a similar 

number, about 195 to be exact, from the Treasury Department’s Office of Inspector General, about 45 from the Department of Transportation’s Office of Inspector General, about 15 for the Department of Justice Inspector General, and two positions and about 

$250,000 from both the U.S. Department of Agriculture Inspector 

General and from GSA Office of Inspector General, for a total of 

about 457 employees and a budget of about $80 million. 

In addition to having a Washington-based staff of around 100 or 

so, the rest of the people are located in field offices around the 

country in the major cities of the country and along the Southwest 

border, particularly with regard to INS work. 

13

I would hope, beginning on day one, if confirmed, to do what I 

can to craft a cohesive team that would, on day one ideally and if 

not as soon as possible thereafter, to begin to think of themselves 

not as employees of the Office of Transportation Inspector General 

or FEMA Inspector General, etc., but instead as members of one 

integrated cohesive team, the Office of Department of Homeland 

Security Inspector General, focused on the mission of the Department of Homeland Security. 

I have had occasion during the course of the last few weeks, as 

acting Inspector General, to meet with some of the employees who 

would be transferred to this office from the Treasury Office of Inspector General and the FEMA Office of Inspector General. I am 

heartened by the expertise and credentials that these people bring, 

their dedication to their respective missions. And if confirmed, I 

think that I will have a team in place that is smarter than I and 

able to help me perform the mission that I would be entrusted to 

perform. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. 

Ms. Hale, our Chairman already asked the question that was on 

my mind, and she spoke of the representatives of employee groups 

that you will be dealing with. I was very pleased to hear that you 

have already begun to consult with them and to listen to them and 

for them to hear you out, as well. 

I would just say, I am not going to ask a question about it, but 

I want to provide some positive reinforcement to say that is just 

the kind of approach I would hope that you would not only take 

initially, but one that you would continue to embrace as you go forward. 

One of the areas that I think—Senator Collins and I share common interests in a whole lot of legislative areas. Really coincidentally, one of the areas I think we have had some common interest 

is in the sort of coordination there will be between this new Department and State and local providers. Can you share just a little 

bit, either of you but particularly Ms. Hale, how you would approach that subject? 

Ms. HALE. First, as you know, there is a State and local coordinator that I will work closely with because I think it is essential. 

Due to my tenure at the Department of Health and Human Services, I understand how critically important it is to provide the resources, which we did through the appropriations in the Congress, 

for public health infrastructure preparedness. I think that is the 

same thing we will see with the ODP grants and the FEMA First 

Responder grants. 

It is critical that we have one-stop shopping for the States, clear 

messages, and clear interoperability. 

So my goal is, just like I did at Transportation and at HHS, to 

meet with them, understand their needs, and work closely with my 

colleagues as we quickly get the money out and provide the technical assistance that we need to be sure that we are utilizing those 

resources. 

Senator CARPER. Good. 

Mr. ERVIN. If I could add to that, Senator, I certainly share Ms. 

Hale’s and the Department’s interest in getting money to States 

and localities just as quickly as possible, given the immensity of 

14

the needs and the seriousness of the needs to which the money 

would be put. 

Equally important, of course, is ensuring that controls are put in 

place, to ensure that the money is spent for the intended purpose, 

and to ensure that the money achieves the results that the money 

is intended to achieve. 

Just recently I have sent some advice that I believe has gone forward to the Secretary about just that. I will be very interested, as 

Inspector General, to ensure that the Department at the Federal 

level ensures, as I say, that the money is spent for the intended 

purpose and that the results are achieved, accountability and performance are very important criteria, needless to say. 

Senator CARPER. When Vince Lombardi was the football coach, 

the head coach at the Green Bay Packers, he used to say unless 

you are keeping score, you are just practicing. And I have always 

found in my life that the things that I measure or ask others to 

measure are the things that we do best. 

I guess my last question for each of you is how will you measure 

the success of the team that you lead? How will you measure, looking back a year, 2 years, 3 years from now? How will you measure 

your success? 

Mr. ERVIN. Well, there are a number of ways, Senator. One is led 

to believe that the number of products that he or she produces is 

an important indicator of success. Of course, as Inspector General, 

if I am confirmed, I would produce inspection reports and audit reports. I expect, given the immensity of the Department, and the 

complexity of its mission, there will be a number of those reports. 

But quantity is only one criterion and, relatively speaking, it is 

the less important one. The important criterion for me is ensuring 

that the Department achieves its mission as effectively and efficiently and economically as possible. 

If confirmed, I hope to have a long tenure. And at the end of that 

tenure, I would hope to be able to say in a measured way that 

there has been noticeable and demonstrable and quantifiable 

progress in terms of economy, efficiency, and effectiveness with regard to each of the Department’s programs and operations, or at 

least those that are most significant. 

Senator CARPER. Ms. Hale. 

Ms. HALE. I share Clark’s concerns. I would emphasize the outcomes. I hope our borders are safer. I hope that the response we 

give to disaster relief across the country is provided efficiently and 

effectively. We will need to develop the outcome measures that are 

necessary to be sure that we have addressed the mission critical 

areas of our Department. 

Senator CARPER. Madam Chairman, I just want to again thank 

our witnesses for being here today. Not only for that, but for your 

willingness to serve our country during a really challenging time. 

Ms. Hale, you mentioned, I think, the name of your mom, I think 

you mentioned your brother who are not here. I am sure they are 

proud of you and we sent along our best to them. And especially 

to your mom. Our thanks for raising a daughter who has a commitment to public service. 

15

Mr. Ervin, to you and to your family members who are present, 

as well, we want to thank them for their willingness to share you 

with all of us. 

Mr. ERVIN. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you, Senator. 

We are following the early bird rules. Senator Lautenberg, you 

would be next. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LAUTENBERG 

Senator LAUTENBERG. Thank you very much. 

It is a pleasure to have a chance to hear two, if I can use the 

term aspirants, so well qualified and experienced to take on these 

important assignments. Frankly, I am still somewhat concerned 

about the ability to organize all of this in what now is an urgent 

moment. So each of you in your particular responsibility is going 

to have a huge undertaking. 

I think that as time goes by and the Chairperson has heard me 

raise the question about what we do in the Senate to match up to 

this new cabinet-level department. So I look at this, and I reviewed 

some of the responses to the inquiries. 

Mr. Ervin, one of the things that concerned me, I come out of the 

corporate world, and the job of the Inspector General is, of course, 

unique to the government, I believe, is how you continue the association that you described you might have with the Secretary, and 

talk about senior staff meetings, senior leadership meetings, and 

about the chance to communicate at those meetings. 

I wonder how free you are to communicate the concerns that you 

have or things that you start to see, because you are prevented, by 

virtue of your responsibility, from early discussions with—I think, 

with the Secretary, the person to whom you report because you 

have to have had the information you seek firmly in hand before 

any suggestions or any reports are released. 

Do you think that there is any kind of a compromise which you 

ought to be concerned about with discussions at a senior leadership 

meeting? I do not think you can freely discuss research or ongoing 

investigations that your Department is doing, can you? 

Mr. ERVIN. No, I completely agree with that, Senator, and I did 

not mean to suggest otherwise. My role, really, in these leadership 

meetings to date has been, appropriately I think, only one of listening and informing myself as to what the Department’s plans are 

going forward. So that, at this early stage, I can offer my suggestions and recommendations as to how the Department might avoid 

things that might become pitfalls. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. Right, and I think that is a proper view. 

What about the IT phase of this huge Department? How many 

people will be assigned to the Inspector General’s Office, do you 

know? 

Mr. ERVIN. Yes, sir. There will be about 457 or so, and they will 

be drawn from both Washington and offices in the field. 

I did something, I do not know if it is unique but it is unusual, 

when I was the Inspector General at the State Department with 

regard to IT operations. I formed a discrete, a separate unit, in the 

Office of Inspector General solely, exclusively to focus on informaVerDate 0ct 09 2002 09:29 Jun 19, 2003 Jkt 086958 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86958.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PHOGAN
16

tion technology issues headed by an Assistant Inspector General. 

And I would propose, if confirmed, to do exactly the same thing. 

One of the biggest challenges, as we have all noted here, that the 

Department will face, of course, lies in the information technology 

area in terms of interoperability, in terms of efficiency, in terms of 

redundancy, in terms of other such things, the information security 

needless to say. 

What I would propose to do is to take a hard look at the number 

of inspectors that I will be inheriting from these different offices, 

I think there are around 14 or so. I will be inheriting around 208 

auditors, several of whom are not just financial auditors but they 

have expertise in program audits, as well. 

And I would craft, from the inspections team and from the audit 

team that I would inherit, a team of some size—I would say in the 

50-person range probably and hopefully grow over time—to focus 

on information technology and information security issues. It is a 

critical part of my mission. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. How early do you think it would be possible for you to be involved? The planning part of the job is, I think, 

a very important one. You make recommendations based on the experience that you have had, and based on the outcome that you 

would like to see. So do you see being asked to intervene at an 

early period of time, in terms of laying out the strategy for creating 

the organization, particularly as it affects the IT section? 

Mr. ERVIN. As a matter of fact, just a few days ago I had occasion 

to, I sought and received a briefing, from the Department’s CIO, 

Chief Information Officer, about his plans as to enterprise architecture for the Department and his plans generally for proceeding 

with regard to information technology and information security 

issues. 

I and my Assistant Inspector General for Information Technology 

Designate, if confirmed, were pleased by what we heard and 

thought that the Department, based on what we heard, was proceeding in the right direction. And we would propose, if I am confirmed, to continue to monitor that, to make recommendations 

along the way, with regard to things that we think the Department 

might be able to do better and more economically and efficiently. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. What do you have to do to get the resources, both personnel and non-personnel resources, that you 

need? Do you start out by getting a budget or requesting a budget 

that you know can cover the needs of the Department? 

Mr. ERVIN. Yes, sir. As I say, the 457 people I will be inheriting 

from these various Offices of Inspectors General or parts thereof, 

and a budget of about $80 million. And I hope that that will be sufficient for purposes of starting to do the work that the Office of Inspector General must do. 

Having said that, I would note that this is a huge Department, 

needless to say, the largest Department in the Federal Government, more than 170,000 employees, more than $30 billion budget. 

I would argue that over time thought should be given as to 

whether the Office of Inspector General should be comparable in 

size to other offices of Inspector General that oversee comparablysized departments. The Office of Inspector General of the DOD, the 

Office of Inspector General at HHS, and the Office of Inspector 

17

General at the Tax Enforcement Administration are in the range 

of 1,000 people. And I would argue that over time an Office of Inspector General of comparable size would be in order for a department of this size. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. I see it says stop. That means go faster. 

Madam Chairman, we are fortunate to have two such skilled people, and the fact that you have worked together, I think, adds a 

degree of comfort to us that you are available to take this assignment. 

I need not caution you about how complicated life is going to get 

to be. Perhaps you should remember to greet your wife every time 

you see her because they may be less frequent than they used to 

be. The fact is that it is heartening to see such good candidates. 

We congratulate you as you go forth. 

Mr. ERVIN. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you, Senator. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SEANTOR AKAKA 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. I want 

to compliment you on this hearing and your work as Chairperson 

of this Committee. And I want to welcome our panelists and also 

your family and friends to this hearing. 

Having as hard-hitting Senators as you have to introduce you 

this morning, there is no question about your experience and abilities. What you have done for our government already is commendable. I have a few questions to ask of both of you. 

Ms. Hale, if confirmed as Under Secretary for Management, you 

will be responsible for human resources and personnel, which will 

be a huge and enormous responsibility given the overall structure 

of the Homeland Security Department. 

As you know, Section 881 of the Homeland Security Act required 

the Secretary, in consultation with the Office of Personnel Management, to report to Congress by February 24 on a plan to eliminate 

disparities in pay and benefits for the new Department. I know 

from a discussion that I had with Deputy Secretary England that 

pay disparities with Federal law enforcement officers have been 

studied. However, that addresses only one of many issues, other 

issues relating to pay and benefits that must be addressed. 

February 24 has passed. March 1 is coming. Why has this overall 

deadline been missed? And what is the status of the plan, if there 

is such a plan? 

Ms. HALE. The status of the plan is that it is this close, and I 

think it will be up here in the next couple of days. One of the 

things that I think is terribly important, as I know that Chairman 

Collins and you and others had the opportunity to discuss this with 

Deputy Secretary England, is that we think it is terribly important 

to be sure that we look at this in relationship not just to the disparities. 

What you will see when the report comes up is just, as you know, 

the tremendous disparities that exist among our agencies. But far 

more importantly, as you both have indicated, it is critical that we 

start the design of the new system and we need to look at them 

in concert. 

18

So we think that it is important to kick off that effort of designing, including our employees, the unions, our management from 

across the country, and from all of our agencies. And I look forward 

to doing that. 

When I was at the Office of Management and Budget I spent a 

significant period of time looking at the disparities and watched 

one by one the law enforcement agencies get different benefits at 

different times. And this really is the time, under the auspices of 

this Department and your statute, that we bring those together. 

I think it will be a period of time before we can resolve all of 

them but doing it in concert, I think, is critical. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Ervin, Inspectors General conduct independent and objective investigations, audits, and inspections in 

order to promote economy and efficiency while preventing waste, 

fraud, and abuse. However, the Homeland Security Act provides 

broad authority to halt an IG inspection and investigation. In fact, 

the Secretary of Homeland Security is authorized to prohibit the 

Inspector General from carrying out or completing any audit or inspection. 

Mr. Ervin, do you believe these limitations will affect your ability 

to protect against waste, fraud and abuse? 

Mr. ERVIN. Senator, I took note of that limitation provision in the 

statute and I discussed it, as a matter of fact, with Secretary Ridge 

in my very first encounter with him. He assured me at the time, 

and I take him at his word, that he is unlikely ever to invoke that 

provision. He says that he cannot conceive of a circumstance under 

which he would invoke the provision. 

As you know, it is limited to those instances where, in his judgment, an inspection, audit or investigation by the Inspector General would in some way, or could, compromise intelligence matters, 

national security matters, criminal investigations, etc. 

I think I have demonstrated in my relatively short time as Inspector General of the State Department, where there is no such 

limitation on the Inspector General incidentally, that I am very 

sensitive to the proper handling of intelligence information, other 

national security information, and criminal investigations. And so 

I believe that there should be no concern about my ability to handle such matters and then carry through with an inspection, audit, 

or investigation. 

I take Secretary Ridge at his word that he would not invoke that 

provision. I believe that he takes me at my word when I say that 

he would not need to invoke that provision. 

Of course, no Inspector General or no one likes the notion of a 

limitation on his or her power, particularly given the importance 

of the mission of this office. I would note that there is a similar 

provision, as you know, with regard to the Inspector General of the 

Defense Department, the Central Intelligence Agency, and in certain others. I believe the Treasury Department, as well. 

There is no such limitation on the State Department Inspectors 

General, as I say. As a practical matter, I do not think it will be 

a problem because I do not believe that the Secretary will invoke 

the provision. 

Senator AKAKA. Madam Chairman, my time has expired. Let me 

just say, before I leave, that I am interested and concerned about 

19

whistleblowers. I have one more a question and then I will place 

in the record other questions. 

Chairman COLLINS. If you would like to ask it, feel free, Senator. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, for that. 

Mr. Ervin, ensuring that employees at the new Department have 

full whistleblower rights and protections has been very important 

to me and to all of us on this Committee. The Inspector General 

plays, without question, a significant role in helping whistleblowers 

disclose waste, fraud, and abuse without retaliation. 

As a nominee for Inspector General at the Department of Homeland Security, how do you view the role of the IG as it relates to 

whistleblowers? 

Mr. ERVIN. Senator, I too share your interest in and concern for 

these issues. Whistleblowers must be protected if the function of 

government is to proceed as it should. 

The way I handled it when I was Inspector General at the State 

Department, and the way that I would propose to handle it if I am 

fortunate enough to be confirmed as Inspector General of the 

Homeland Security Department, is as follows: As you know, there 

is a separate independent Federal prosecutorial agency called the 

Office of Special Counsel. And if one looks at the website of the Office of Special Counsel, it says that its mission is to safeguard the 

merit system by protecting Federal employees and applicants from 

prohibited personnel practices, especially reprisal for whistleblowing. It is the primary mission of that office. 

Likewise, of course, as you suggested, the Office of Inspector 

General has an interest in whistleblowing, as well. 

A secondary mission of the Office of Special Counsel is doing 

what it can do to guard against waste, fraud, and abuse. That is 

a major part of the mission of the Office of Inspector General. So 

there is a lot of parallelism and complementariness in the missions 

of the Office of Inspector General and the Office of Special Counsel. 

The way I handled it at State and the way I propose to handle 

it at Homeland Security is if someone alleged that he or she was 

being retaliated against for having cooperated with, or for that 

matter initiated, an Office of Inspector General investigation, then 

I would seek to investigate that whistleblower allegation myself because, of course, such an allegation would go to the very integrity 

and efficacy and continued efficacy of the Office of Inspector General. It would obviously have a chilling effect on our investigations 

if people could, without consequence, be retaliated against for, as 

I say, either initiating or cooperating with our investigations. 

If however, there was an allegation that there was retaliation for 

whistleblowing but there was no allegation that the retaliation resulted from cooperating with or initiating an Office of Inspector 

General investigation, my inclination would be, subject to the circumstances, to refer that matter to the Office of Special Counsel, 

for two reasons. 

One, as I say, dealing with whistleblower allegations is the primary mission of the Office of Special Counsel. Second, the Office 

of Special Counsel, as I understand it, has a staff of about 106 

criminal investigators and lawyers. Whereas, the Office of Inspector General, at least at the State Department, we were very underVerDate 0ct 09 2002 09:29 Jun 19, 2003 Jkt 086958 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86958.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PHOGAN
20

staffed in terms of criminal investigators. During the course of my 

tenure, I think we went down from 30 to 20. 

One of the felicitous things about the Department of Homeland 

Security, if I am fortunate to be confirmed is, as I may have said 

earlier, will be a much larger criminal investigative force. 

But that, generally, is the approach that I took there. I am inclined to say that I would take the same approach at Homeland Security if I am fortunate enough to be confirmed. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much for your response, and for 

both of you being here today. 

Madam Chairman, thank you for extending the time for me. 

Chairman COLLINS. Absolutely. Senator Pryor. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PRYOR 

Senator PRYOR. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I actually do not have any questions, but more of a challenge for 

both of you. You all may have been here when now Secretary Ridge 

testified before the Committee. Many of us talked about this with 

him. 

You have this tremendous opportunity to have a brand-new department. We all know, everybody in this room, everybody in this 

country, from time to time gets fed up with bureaucracy and government and some of the seemingly idiotic things or the bad results 

sometimes the government gets itself into when everybody is trying 

to do the right thing and trying to do good. 

But both of you, especially in this Department, have a unique opportunity to set the course of this Department and set the tone, set 

up a framework where this Department could be the model agency 

in all of government. I hope you seize this opportunity and take the 

chance that history is giving you to go out there and do great 

things for this Nation and the world, and also do great things for 

our government so that other agencies, other departments can look 

to you about how to do things the right way, and the creative 

things that can be done in a government agency—under very difficult circumstances admittedly—but things that can be done there. 

And I just want to leave you all with that challenge and hope 

that you will go to the office every single day trying to establish 

this agency as a model agency for all of our government. 

Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much, Senator Pryor. 

Again, I want to thank our two nominees for appearing today. It 

is my hope that the Committee will be able to act expeditiously 

next week on your nominations to bring them before the full Senate for confirmation. 

I also want to express my personal appreciation for your willingness to serve your country, particularly in such challenging jobs. So 

thank you very much for your public service and for being with us 

this morning. 

We will now move to our second panel. We will consider and call 

up Linda Springer, who has been nominated to be the Controller 

of the Office of Federal Financial Management at the Office of 

Management and Budget. 

Ms. Springer is currently the Counselor to the Deputy Director 

for Management at the Office of Management and Budget. Prior to 

21

1 The prepared statement of Ms. Springer appears in the Appendix on page 105. 

The biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 107. 

Responses to pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 114. 

Responses to post-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 136. 

that she served in a number of executive positions in the private 

sector. 

Ms. Springer’s strong background and experience in financial 

systems and management makes her well qualified for the position 

to which she has been nominated. 

Ms. Springer has filed responses to questionnaires, including biographical and financial information. She has answered pre-hearing 

questions submitted by the Committee, undergone an interview 

with the Committee staff, and had her financial statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. 

Without objection, this information will be made part of the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data which are on 

file and available for public inspection in the Committee offices. 

Our Committee rules require that all witnesses give their testimony under oath. So Ms. Springer, I would ask that you stand and 

please raise your right hand. 

[Witness sworn.] 

Ms. Springer, if you have a statement that you would like to 

make you can proceed at this time. 

TESTIMONY OF LINDA M. SPRINGER 1 TO BE CONTROLLER OF 

THE OFFICE OF FEDERAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT FOR 

THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET 

Ms. SPRINGER. I do. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I would also like to introduce, if I may, my family members who 

are here. 

Chairman COLLINS. Please do. 

Ms. SPRINGER. My mother is here, and my brother, in the back. 

And my uncle and cousin, all from Pennsylvania. 

Chairman COLLINS. We welcome you all here today. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. Madam Chairman, if I may intervene with 

just a short statement. 

Chairman COLLINS. Absolutely. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. I note with pride that Ms. Springer was 

born in New Jersey, that she spent some part of her professional 

life, I believe, as well in our State and comes with a wealth of experience that we are pleased to have in government. 

We congratulate your mother and your family, as well, for having 

achieved this distinction that you are about to become, and we 

thank you for being here and we are proud of the things that you 

have done in the past, and look forward to talking to you for a moment about how you tackle this incredible job that lies ahead. 

Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. Thank you, Ms. 

Springer, for being here. 

Chairman COLLINS. I thank the Senator. 

Ms. SPRINGER. Thank you, Senator. I might add that all of the 

family members that are here also have spent time in New Jersey 

as well. So we have a fondness for both States. 

Madam Chairman and Senator Lautenberg, Senator Pryor, as 

you know, I am pleased to be here today as the President’s nomiVerDate 0ct 09 2002 09:29 Jun 19, 2003 Jkt 086958 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86958.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PHOGAN
22

nee to become Controller in the Office of Federal Financial Management at the Office of Management and Budget. 

My attraction to this position began last spring when I read the 

President’s management agenda. My reaction was twofold. First I 

asked if the government was really this serious about management 

issues. And second, if it was, I wanted to be a part of it. 

As someone who is coming to government for the first time, I 

bring high expectations and standards for financial management. 

These are standards that I have held myself, as well as my staff 

in the areas for which I have been professionally responsible for 

over 25 years. 

There are three particular manifestations of these standards that 

I would like to share with the Committee today. The first is that 

financial management extends beyond a clean audit opinion. Integrity and reliability, things to which a clean audit attests, should be 

a given. In that area, with the particular help of this Committee, 

the Federal Government is making progress. A record 21 of 24 of 

the CFO Act agencies received clean audit opinions in 2002. 

But achievement of even 24 of 24 clean audits would not necessarily prove the existence of strong financial management. First 

class financial management requires integration of the financial 

impact of agency activities and decisions in operational execution 

and in senior management decisionmaking. It is accompanied by 

accountability standard setting, performance tracking, and other 

analysis. 

These are among the characteristics we should seek in government every bit as much as they are expected in the private sector. 

That leads to the second principle. Government should be held 

to the highest, if not higher, standards of financial management 

performance as the private sector. The Federal Government’s constituents do not have the option of taking their business elsewhere. 

Citizens cannot elect to halt new investments; i.e., tax payments, 

until the company, the Federal Government, has improved its financial practices. 

Accordingly, I believe it is incumbent on every financial professional in government to execute his or her responsibilities according to standards of excellence that are consistent with this stewardship responsibility. 

The third principle is that the effort to advance the quality of financial management in the Federal Government largely transcends 

political philosophy. The government’s financial managers are dedicated to making programs work better and more efficiently regardless of their purpose, and I certainly will be as well. 

It is analogous to the situation of the auto mechanic who is working to achieve optimal engine performance. His or her work is independent of the size of a car, the destination of the trip, or the identity of the driver. It occurs to me that I should tell you that I like 

to roll up my sleeves and get a little grease on my hands in checking the engine. So I am very committed to that principle. 

Should I be confirmed as Controller, I will lead the Office of Federal Financial Management with these principles in mind, in promoting and assisting the development of the type of environment 

that I have described. You have my personal commitment that I 

will give my very best effort in that responsibility. 

23

I do want to acknowledge the increased attention to strong financial management, of which I have been made aware, in both the 

Legislative and the Executive Branches, particularly as a result of 

the efforts of this good Committee. I hope to have the opportunity 

to participate in a continuation of that effort. 

Finally, I want to recognize and express my gratitude to the staff 

of the Office of Federal Financial Management for their work, and 

also to my family for their support in the period that has led up 

to this hearing. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much, Ms. Springer. 

As I explained with our first panel, there are three standard 

questions that we ask of all nominees, and I would like to proceed 

with those at this time. 

First, is there anything that you are aware of in your background 

which might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to which you have been nominated? 

Ms. SPRINGER. No, there is not. 

Chairman COLLINS. Second, do you know of anything personal or 

otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have 

been nominated? 

Ms. SPRINGER. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. And finally, do you agree without reservation 

to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before 

any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Ms. SPRINGER. Yes, I do. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Springer, there has long been a concern 

by Members of this Committee, and it is a concern that I share, 

that management issues seem to take a back seat to budget matters within the Office of Management and Budget. I was interested 

in your testimony that before agreeing to go to OMB you raised 

this very issue. But I do feel it is so important that we put the M 

back in OMB, and it is my impression that, while this administration is making progress in that area, budget issues still tend to be 

the major focus of the office. 

What is your perspective on the emphasis placed on management? 

Ms. SPRINGER. I think, Senator, that there is a perception that, 

by virtue of the size of the budget staff at the Office, that you could 

have the impression that management still is a lowercase ‘‘m’’ relative to the budget side. 

I would say that it is my observation so far that management 

probably has gotten more attention in recent years under the director and that has been reinforced now with the recent nomination 

of Mr. Johnson to the deputy director position for management. 

And also, in talking with the people on the budget side, the resource management offices, that they are very committed to 

partnering with the staff on the statutory management side in 

achieving our management goals. 

So I have seen an increasing amount of attention and I expect 

that to continue and I will be working very hard to make sure that 

it does. 

24

Chairman COLLINS. Financial management related issues have 

been on the General Accounting Office’s annual high-risk list for 

many years. That is the list of programs or operations that the 

GAO determines are particularly vulnerable to waste, fraud, abuse, 

and mismanagement. The GAO has designated several agencies’ financial management—and they are major agencies, the Department of Defense, for example, IRS, FAA, and the Forest Service—

as high risk. 

In the most recent high-risk report, the GAO acknowledged that 

a wide range of financial management initiatives are underway 

and progress is being made. But we are still seeing departments 

and programs that are on the high-risk list year after year after 

year. In fact, some programs have been on the list since the inception of the high risk list which, I believe, is about a dozen years 

ago. 

What do you think should be done to make dramatic progress in 

improving the financial management systems of the Federal Government? 

Ms. SPRINGER. I have had the opportunity, with this new high 

risk list that has just been published, to start to review those reports. I have requested them and I have started to read them. And 

I share your observation and your concern about the length of time 

that it takes for the remediation activities. 

One thing that I have noted is that there is a direct relationship 

between the time it takes and the size of the department. So that 

a department the size of the Department of Defense, for example, 

will take longer for its remediation to be totally installed and fruitful just by virtue of the size of the operation. 

Having said that, it will be my plan to visit with each of those 

departments, their chief financial officers and, where it is appropriate, their chief information officers, and have the opportunity to 

review their plans with them, to see that there are milestones, 

metrics, and accountability standards and ways to see that it is on 

track. We will do that on a regular basis where it is appropriate. 

And the staff of the Office of Federal Financial Management are 

assigned, as well, to each of these agencies so that we will be able 

to put very strong attention to monitoring progress on those plans. 

Should we find that there is not a plan in place, then obviously 

that would be step one, to work with those departments to make 

sure they have a viable plan to address those issues. 

Chairman COLLINS. What do you see as the relationship between 

an agency or a department’s chief information officer and the chief 

financial officer? As I am sure you are aware, the Clinger-Cohen 

Act mandated the creation of CIOs across government and envisioned a close working relationship and a far greater emphasis on 

management of technology and information systems than had been 

the case prior to the Act. 

What is your assessment of the Act and how well it is working 

as you look across the Federal Government? 

Ms. SPRINGER. I do not think that there is any more important 

partnership in the agencies, as I have found to be the case in the 

private sector, than between the chief information officer and the 

chief financial officer. Without the integrity and the timeliness of 

25

good data, the chief financial officer or any other senior officer in 

the agency will not be able to make informed decisions. 

So I think that the Act is absolutely on target. I think that the 

agencies—what I have seen is that there is a different structure in 

place in each agency. In some cases, there is a reporting relationship, for example, between the chief information officer and the 

chief financial officer. In other departments it is structured a little 

bit differently. 

And it will be one of my objectives to take the temperature and 

really get an assessment of how well that is working. One of the 

ways to gauge it will be to see how well the agencies are able to 

meet the accelerated time frames we have for financial reporting 

and to be able to have a look at some of the performance metrics 

and the timeliness and the quality of the data associated with 

those. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. Senator Lautenberg. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. Thank you, very much, Senator Collins. 

You know, you had me nodding my head because I was, as I 

mentioned, in the corporate sector for a long time before I came 

here. Whatever I do seems to take a long time. 

I ran a company called ADP and I was a founder of that company. We were three kids just out of school and borrowed $5,000 

from an unwitting investor and produced a company that today has 

40,000 employees. And when the CEO, the last one that I picked 

in my work at ADP—the first one already retired but I could not 

stand that—the fellow now who runs the company, the CEO, when 

he gives a speech to employees it is immediately translated to 10 

languages. The scope of the company, even though I sat there 

through its beginnings and its development, it is one of America’s 

most successful public companies. I look at it in awe. I look at it 

as a true example of the American opportunity. 

The three of us, two of my partners were brothers. Their family, 

like mine, were hard working factory people in Patterson, New Jersey. And here we have a company that had the longest growth 

record of any company in America, over 10 percent a year. That 

record, unfortunately, was just broken after 42 years. The CEO 

said publicly that it will be down to single digit growth in the next 

year because of the conditions around us. That it is not bad, 42 

years of 10 percent increases each and every year. 

It was a good investment and I’m sorry I still do not have it. 

The thing that struck me, I am on the board of a not-for-profit 

organization that is part of a quasi-governmental entity here in 

Washington. We got in an argument about how clean is clean. 

What does it really mean? You hit on a very good observation that, 

I guess, was from your experience with Cooper’s, was it? 

Ms. SPRINGER. And in the financial services generally, yes. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. When we looked at what happened to 

some of America’s purportedly great companies who walked away 

with clean opinions from their auditors and it turned out that they 

were totally defrauding the public and the investors and people affiliated with them, it is one of America’s most disgraceful private 

sector moments. 

I am on the board of the Columbia Business School, my alma 

mater, and just arranged for a chair to be established on corporate 

26

governance. And while on the board of this agency that I was talking about, the discussion about someone who was waving the clean 

flag while we were having all kinds of management problems, unable to keep up with our receivables, unable to keep up with our 

payables, unable to keep up with our need for resources for our 

mission. 

To hear you say that is reassuring to me, Ms. Springer, I can tell 

you that, and the alert that you put up when you say that standards for financial management in government have to match the 

highest that we seek for any operating entity whether it is private 

or otherwise. 

So again, I commend you for that insight and hope that you will 

be able to continue to insist on that as a standard. 

Now you are going to work with the most beloved agency in government, OMB. But I think you have got broad enough shoulders 

to withstand the occasional carping that might take place. 

Are you prohibited from expressing opinions about financial policy as a controller, would you say? 

Ms. SPRINGER. No, actually, I think that one of the main focuses 

of the Office of Federal Financial Management is to be a force behind policy. So oftentimes that will relate in a very specific sense 

for forming content of financial statements. It may involve, in a 

broader sense, working for example, as last year, with the Committee on legislative activities in the area of improper payments, 

erroneous payments, and things like that that led to the Act last 

year. 

I view that as the model for how the Legislative and Executive 

Branches can work together to achieve a common objective. So I 

would like to see more of that and I think we can work in the policy area. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. Let me ask you this without meaning to 

in any way cause you any discomfort. Financing operations on a 

deficit basis, is that something that you would opine on? 

Ms. SPRINGER. I do not think that that necessarily would be a 

part of my job description. 

Senator LAUTENBERG. You are good. You are going to be terrific. 

Thank you, very much. 

Ms. SPRINGER. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you, Senator Lautenberg. 

Ms. Springer, just one final question. If we were to bring you 

back before this Committee a year from now, what would you hope 

to have accomplished? What are your priorities for this year? 

Ms. SPRINGER. There are several, Madam Chairman. The main 

priorities would, first of all, be in the area of moving toward meeting the accelerated time frame goals for 2004 for the financial 

statements from each of the agencies. I would hope that we could 

come back with a higher number of agencies beyond the 21 with 

clean opinions, I would like to be able to report that to the Committee. I would like to be able to report that a number of them 

were turned in on a shorter time frame than they were in 2002. 

So I would like to be able to report progress in that area. 

I would like to be able to report that we have made progress on 

erroneous payments. As you know, the original estimate was in the 

$20 billion range. And as a result of the reporting now required 

27

under the Act and that was required by OMB in the last budget 

cycle, the number now is closer to $35 billion. I would like to be 

able to report to the Committee a year from now that that number 

is lower, and it already has come down in some areas, but we 

would like to see a lot more. 

Those two items are at the top of the list and I am sure, as I 

am more fully engaged, should I be confirmed, that there will be 

a number of others on the list. 

Chairman COLLINS. I was hoping you were going to report to us that the erroneous payments, rather than growing to $35 billion 

would, because of better reporting, I suspect, declined. That really 

is a very serious problem and an issue that this Committee looks 

forward to working with you on. 

I want to thank you very much for appearing today. I do hope 

that the Committee will be able to move expeditiously on your confirmation next week. We appreciate your willingness to serve. 

Thank you. 

Ms. SPRINGER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Chairman COLLINS. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open until 5 p.m. today for the submission of any written 

questions or statements for the record. 

This hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:31 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

(29)

A P P E N D I X 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR VOINOVICH 

Good morning and thank you, Madam Chairman. Today, the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee meets to consider nominations for three important government management posts, two at the Department of Homeland Security, and one 

at the Office of Management and Budget. 

I would like to extend a warm greeting to our nominees, including the Honorable 

Clark Kent Ervin for Inspector General at the Department of Homeland Security; 

Ms. Janet Hale for Under Secretary for Management at the Department of Homeland Security; and Ms. Linda Springer for Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management at the Office of Management and Budget. 

The role of Inspector General of Homeland Security is extremely important to the 

success of the new Department. If confirmed, Mr. Ervin will serve as the internal 

watchdog by conducting audits, investigations, and maintaining strict oversight of 

the Department. Specifically, the Inspector General will ensure that the Department’s employees and managers uphold the Homeland Security mission of protecting the American public against another terrorist attack. As you know, Members 

of Congress take their oversight role very seriously, so I can appreciate the significance of the Inspector General’s responsibilities. I look forward to working with Mr. 

Ervin as he embarks on this challenging opportunity. 

The Under Secretary for Management is responsible for the administration and 

management of the Department of Homeland Security. If confirmed, Ms. Janet Hale 

will oversee the daunting task of transitioning and reorganizing 170,000 employees 

from 22 different agencies into one new Department. In addition to this massive undertaking, the Under Secretary for Management will direct other departmental 

activities including the budget, procurement, personnel, facilities and equipment, security, and grants and other management assistance programs. Therefore, the person selected for this position must have a broad set of competiencies to accomplish 

the challenges associated with the largest government restructuring since the creation of the Department of Defense in 1947. After reviewing her qualifications, I am 

confident that Ms. Hale possesses the skills necessary for the Under Secretary position. As a fellow Buckeye, I promise to closely monitor her progress. 

This morning, we will also hear from Ms. Linda Springer, the President’s nominee 

for the Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management at the Office of 

Management and Budget. With over 25 years of private sector experience, I commend her for answering the President’s call to serve our country. I am certain that 

Ms. Springer’s knowledge and background will be extremely helpful to the Federal 

Government’s financial management community. 

I hope that we can move these nominations through the confirmation process in 

an expeditious manner. Thank you Madam Chairman.

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