1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Proposed Clean Power Plan for Existing 

7 Power Plant

8

9

10

11

12

13 9:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.

14 Tuesday, July 29, 2014

15

16 EPA Region 8 Building

17 1595 Wynkoop Street

18 Room A

19 Denver, Colorado 80202

20

21

22

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1 EPA Panel:

2 SCOTT JACKSON

3 JENNY NOONAN

4 DEE ROTHERY

5 MONICA MORALES

6 COLIN BOSWELL

7 DAVID RISLEY

8 CALLIE VIDETICH

9 NATE MCMICHAEL

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 INTRODUCTION - JENNY NOONAN 10

4 JOHN KINKAID, Moffat County Commissioner 21

5 ROBERT EMERY, Denver Resident 24

6 STANLEY STURGILL, Harlan County, Kentucky 28

7 MATT JONES, State Senator, District 17, 32

8 Colorado

9 JAMES HUGHES 38

10 CHRIS JANNEN 42

11 MICHAEL HUTCHESON, Environmental Engineer 44

12 for Ameren Corporation

13 DALE COMYFORD, Retired Engineer, Colorado 49

14 KAREN HADDEN, Executive Director, Sustainable 53

15 Energy & Economic Development Coalition

16 KAREY CHRIST-JANER 57

17 TOM SMITH, Director of Public Citizens, 63

18 Texas Office

19 GREG SCHAEFER, Vice-President External 68

20 Affairs, Arch Coal

21 LINDA KALEY, Sierra Club 72

22 JENN VERVIER, New Belgium Brewing Company 76

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 ANDREW LANE 82

4 ARIEL ESPOSITO 87

5 JUSTIN WILSON, Western Clean Energy Campaign 91

6 GRAHAM MCCAHAN, Attorney, Environmental 94

7 Defense Fund

8 CINDY LIVERANCE, American Lung Association 100

9 KATHARINE MCCORMICK, Natural Resources 103

10 Defense Council

11 ROGER SINGER, Sierra Club 107

12 PATRICK O'HERRON, Trauma & Acute Care Surgeon 110

13 VIRGINIA COTTS 114

14 BILL CORCORAN, Sierra Club 119

15 ANN MORGAN, National Wildlife Federation 124

16 R. J. HARRINGTON, Clean Energy Action 129

17 JONATHAN DOWNING, Wyoming Mining Association 134

18 NOAH LONG, Natural Resources Defense Council 139

19 THAD KUROWSKI, SolarCity 144

20 HOWARD GELLER, Southwest Energy Efficiency 148

21 Project

22 EDIE CHANG, California Air Resources Board 153

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 BRUCE RAY, Johns Manville 159

4 MARK FIX, Western Organization of Resource 165

5 Councils

6 MARSHA MILLER 171

7 TRAVIS MADSEN, Environment America 173

8 RON LEHR, Attorney and Former Commission & 179

9 Chairman of Colorado Public Utilities &

10 President of Denver Water Board and Water

11 Commission

12 ALLISON FISHER, Public Citizens Energy & 185

13 Climate Program

14 ALEX BURKE, Volunteer, Sierra Club 190

15 MEGAN GILMAN, Holy Cross Energy 194

16 HUBERT TWO LEGGINS, Crow Tribe of Montana 199

17 KELLY SLOAN, Associated Governments of 203

18 Northwest Colorado

19 MARY PARKER, Moms Know Best & Candidate for 209

20 Colorado House of Representatives

21 LUNCH RECESS

22 INTRODUCTION - MONICA MORALES 213

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SUSAN SEEKFORD 221

4 KYLA MAKI, Montana Environmental Information 226

5 Center

6 LANCE WRIGHT, Green Engineer 230

7 LAURRENT MEILLON, Capitol Solar Energy, LLC 234

8 MAX TYLER, Transportation & Energy Committee, 239

9 State of Colorado

10 CARL SMITH, Sebinar Rail Transportation Union 244

11 ALEX BLACKMER, Colorado Renewable Energy 249

12 Society

13 JOHN LAUER, Wildland Firefighter 253

14 MATTHEW NYKIEL, Former Wildland Firefighter & 257

15 University of Colorado Law Student

16 CINDY LAY 259

17 JOHN MCALLISTER, Energy Control & Nocterra 264

18 Company

19 LILI FRANCKLYN, Former NPR & National 267

20 Geographic Reporter

21 ERIC LARSEN, Polar Explorer 272

22

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 CATHERINE CARRUTHERS, Environmental Tax 275

4 Reform, West

5 HAROLD BIDLACK 279

6 RICK GORDON, Tri-State Generation & 285

7 Transmission Association

8 JOHN GRAVES, Minnkota Power Cooperative 291

9 ROBERT HOWELL, Retired Physics and Software 295

10 Engineer

11 JODI JONES 299

12 JIM WHITE, Lutheran Advocacy Ministry & 302

13 Professor at University of Colorado

14 ROBERT NEMANICH 307

15 PETER FIEKOWSKY, Citizens Climate Lobby 312

16 RONNIE CITRON-FINK, Moms Clean Air Force 318

17 LYNN GREENE, Lucky Corridor Project 322

18 JOSH VALENTINE, Volunteer, Clean Energy 326

19 Action 

20 CLIFF KOTNIK, Resident of Colorado Springs 330

21 JERRY GINIANOW, Chief Sustainability Officer 335

22 for Denver 

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 LIZ MCINTYRE, Three-Time Olympic Skier, 340

4 Olympic Ski Coach, National Ski Hall 

5 of Fame

6 TROY DEJOODE, Iowa Association of 344

7 Municipal Utilities

8 DANIEL HODGES, Colorado Springs Utilities 348

9 JOAN SEEMAN 354

10 STEVE SZABO, Poudre Valley Electric Co-op 356

11 KAREN DIKE, Grandmother & Sierra Club 361

12 KAYLIN RICHARDSON, Two-Time Olympic Skier 366

13 and Professional Skier

14 LILIA RAMIREZ in Spanish 372

15 HILDA NUCETE Translation 372

16 VICKIE SIMMONS, Moapa Band of Paiute 375

17 Indians

18 CHRIS VOTOUPAL, Colorado Clean Tech 379

19 Energy Association

20 JAIME TRAVIS, Moms Know Best 385

21 CHRIS EDMONDS 395

22 BECKY ENGLISH, Sierra Club & CRSW 398

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1

2 C O N T E N T S (continued)

3 PAGE

4 ZACH OWENS, Alliance for Sustainable 404

5 Colorado

6 JEFF NEUMAN-LEE, Pastor, In Faith of 407

7 Jesus Christ

8 MATTHEW HAMILTON, Aspen Skiing Company 411

9 DEANNE BUTTERFIELD, Friends Committee on 416

10 National Legislation

11 DEBORAH TAYLOR 421

12 JASON CROW, Attorney 424

13 JENNY GUBRUD 428

14 JOSH PHILLIPS 429

15 REBECCA PIERCE 435

16 K. K. DUVIVIER 436

17 KYLE WAGNER, Environment Colorado & 441

18 Environment America

19 MATTHEW ELSNER, Sierra Club Denver Metro 444

20 Network

21 BRYCE CARTER 447

22 HENRY FOWLER 453

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1

2 P R O C E E D I N G S

3 MS. NOONAN: Good morning, everyone. 

4 This is the pre welcome welcome. I just wanted 

5 to let folks in the audience know that if -- we 

6 have a few slots. There were cancelations this 

7 morning, so if you would like to speak and have 

8 not registered to do so thus far, please go back 

9 out to the registration table and we will try

10 and --

11 FEMALE VOICE: Sorry.

12 MS. NOONAN: If you have not yet 

13 registered to speak, we have a few extra slots 

14 this morning. There were some cancelations. So 

15 I would encourage anyone who would like to speak 

16 and does not already have a slot to please go 

17 back out to the registration table and we can 

18 accommodate you. So please feel free to do that. 

19 Thank you.

20 (Pause.)

21 MR. MCGRATH: Good morning. Oh, boy, 

22 that really does work. How's everybody this 

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1 morning?

2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Fine.

3 MR. MCGRATH: Good. Well, my -- my name 

4 is Shawn McGrath. I'm the Regional Administrator 

5 here for EPA Region 8, and I want to welcome 

6 ya'll this morning. And I thank you for -- for 

7 coming in.

8 This -- this, of course is a public 

9 hearing on the Clean Power Plan Proposal. 

10 Last fall before we put in the paper on 

11 our Clean Power Plan Proposal we benefited from 

12 unimpressive into outreach. We held 11 public 

13 hearings, sessions nationwide, including here in 

14 Denver. We heard from thousands of people 

15 through phone calls, e-mails, meetings, and more.

16 What we heard helped shaped the guiding 

17 principles of our proposal. We heard that 

18 flexibility is key. So we maximize choices the 

19 states can make for themselves in the proposal.

20 We heard the states could cut pollution 

21 cost effectively by looking at the energy systems 

22 as a whole. So we built that into the proposal. 

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1 We heard that the power sector is interconnected 

2 and not bound by state lines. So we allow states 

3 to work together or go it alone. Whatever works 

4 best for the state is -- is how we structure this 

5 in the proposal.

6 The public comment period is incredibly 

7 valuable to us. And since June the 2nd when 

8 Administrator McCarthy proposed the Clean Power 

9 Plan, we've been raising focus on our second 

10 phase of engagement. We've met with 60 different 

11 groups in just the first 25 business days after 

12 our proposal, and we received more than 300,000 

13 comments so far and expect many, many more over 

14 the coming month, days, and weeks. We want no 

15 stone unturned and no good idea off the table. 

16 And that's why we're so excited to kick off 

17 public hearings across the country.

18 This week we're hosting three other 

19 public hearing sessions like the one here. And 

20 every one of them has two days worth of hearings 

21 -- in Washington, and Atlanta, and Pittsburgh, as 

22 well as here in Denver.

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1 We expect great feedback at these 

2 sessions. They're a critical opportunity for 

3 people to speak to their government directly. 

4 But let me also make clear that any comment that 

5 we receive by October the 16th will be equally 

6 accepted and analyzed. 

7 There are no special comments or special 

8 groups. We look at everything carefully, and EPA 

9 does the work to shape that into a rule that we 

10 can all be proud of.

11 We know the purpose of this rule couldn't 

12 be more important, and that's why we're putting 

13 so much importance on the process and on the 

14 comments we are getting and are going to help us 

15 get this rule right.

16 And one thing that I wanted to say before 

17 I turn this over to the meeting chair here is one 

18 thing that is just incredibly important to our 

19 system of government is value and the diversity 

20 of opinions. And I expect here today that we 

21 really do have a wide breadth of opinions about 

22 this proposed rule. And EPA very much wants to 

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1 hear from all those perspectives.

2 And what I would ask all of you is even 

3 if you don't agree with a speaker, that you 

4 respect their right to express how they view it, 

5 so -- so, please, please help us in letting 

6 everybody have a chance to provide us their 

7 promise and input into this rule.

8 So, again, thank you all for coming this 

9 morning, today, and being a part of this process. 

10 And let me turn this over to Jenny.

11 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Thank you so 

12 much. Can everyone hear me?

13 (No response.)

14 Good morning. My name is Jenny Noonan, 

15 and I'm one of the Chairs of today's public 

16 hearing. Thank you so much for coming today.

17 Joining me on the panel are Scott Jackson 

18 and Dee Rothery. And our court reporter is Alex.

19 We are here today to listen to your 

20 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

21 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

22 of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014.

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1 Power plants are the largest source of 

2 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

3 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

4 emissions.

5 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

6 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

7 proposal consists of two main parts: State 

8 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

9 power plants and guidelines to help states 

10 develop their plans for meeting the goals.

11 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

12 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

13 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

14 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

15 their goals by 2030.

16 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

17 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

18 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

19 set emission limits for two groups of power 

20 plants: those that make a physical or 

21 operational change that increased the plant's 

22 maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions and 

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1 those that replace components to such an extent 

2 that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

3 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

4 facility.

5 If you would like more details on either 

6 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

7 available near the registration desk.

8 As Shawn mentioned, today's hearing is 

9 one of four public hearings across the country 

10 this week on the two proposed rules. We have had 

11 tremendous interest in each of these hearings. 

12 And, again, I'd like to thank you for taking the 

13 time out of your day to join us and share your 

14 comments.

15 We have a lot of people signed up to 

16 speak today, and we want to hear from all of 

17 them. So before we get started, I'd like to go 

18 through a few housekeeping details and ground 

19 rules that will help to maintain today's hearing 

20 run smoothly.

21 First, make sure that you have registered 

22 -- you have checked in at the registration desk. 

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1 Even if you're not planning to speak today and if 

2 you signed up to speak online or by phone, but 

3 haven't told us that you're here, please step out 

4 to the registration desk and let the EPA staff 

5 there know that you have arrived.

6 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

7 given a room letter when you checked in -- Room A 

8 or Room B. This is Room A. Are you in the right 

9 room? If not, this is a good time to switch.

10 If you are not speaking this morning and 

11 the room is getting crowded, we have two 

12 additional rooms set up where you can watch the 

13 hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 

14 desk will direct you to one of those rooms. All 

15 right.

16 Here is how today's hearing will work: I 

17 will call the speakers up in pairs. When your 

18 room is called, please come to the table in the 

19 front of the room.

20 When I call on you to speak, please state 

21 your name and spell it for the court reporter. 

22 Your comments will be transcribed and included in 

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1 the record of comments on the proposed rule.

2 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

3 give comments. We have this light to help you 

4 know how much time you have left to speak. The 

5 light turns from green to yellow. That means you 

6 have one minute remaining. When it turns red, 

7 that's a signal to wrap up your testimony. The 

8 light will flash red and beep when you have 

9 spoken for five minutes and that it's time to 

10 stop.

11 When you are finished speaking, please 

12 remain at the table until the person next to you 

13 has completed his or her testimony.

14 We are here to listen to you today; 

15 however, a panel member may ask you a question to 

16 clarify your comments. After each speaker is 

17 done, I will then call up the next pair of 

18 speakers. If you have brought a written copy of 

19 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

20 the registration desk before you leave today.

21 Because of the large number of people who 

22 have signed up to speak today and to be fair to 

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1 everyone, we are going to have to strictly 

2 enforce the five minute limit. If you have 

3 additional comments you would like to make, you 

4 can submit them in writing.

5 Let me assure you that EPA gives as much 

6 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

7 as we do to comments that we receive at public 

8 hearings like this one. So if you have more you 

9 would like to say, please submit it. Your 

10 comments will be reviewed.

11 There is still plenty of time to get 

12 written comments in and there are comment cards 

13 available at the registration desk. Comments 

14 must be received by October 16th, 2014. We will 

15 put any written comments submitted today in the 

16 official docket for the proposed rule.

17 Instructions for submitting written 

18 comments in other ways are available at the 

19 materials table -- again, near the registration 

20 desk.

21 We're scheduled to go tonight until 8:00 

22 p.m. We'll take short breaks throughout the day 

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1 as needed. If you have any questions during the 

2 day, please see staff at the registration desk, 

3 and someone will try to help you out.

4 To echo what Shawn has said earlier, I 

5 want to ask each of you to please be respectful 

6 of everyone who speaks today. We have people 

7 with a wide variety of views in the audience, and 

8 we want to hear from all of you. So, we can do 

9 that, and we ask if everyone listens quietly. 

10 Even applause can slow things down, and we want 

11 to hear from everyone who signed up to speak.

12 To conclude, good manners and good 

13 democracy -- in the spirit of good manners and 

14 good democracy, we ask that everyone is 

15 respectful. We are here to listen to each other, 

16 even those we disagree with.

17 Finally, a good housekeeping note: 

18 Please turn off your cell phones.

19 Thank you again for taking the time to 

20 share your comments on EPA's proposed rule, and 

21 let's get started.

22 The first two speakers today -- I would 

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1 like to call up the Honorable John Kinkaid and 

2 Robert Emery. And the next two speakers on deck 

3 Stanley Sturgill and Matt Jones.

4 Mr. Kinkaid, would you like to start?

5 MR. KINKAID: Yes, thank you.

6 Is my speaker on? 

7 (No response.)

8 How about now? John Kinkaid, Moffat 

9 County Commissioner. It indeed is spelled 

10 K-I-N-K-A-I-D -- K.

11 Good morning. I'm here today before you 

12 on behalf of my constituents in Moffat County, 

13 Colorado, and the residents of all of Northwest 

14 Colorado who cannot be here this morning to 

15 testify.

16 If they could be here in person this 

17 morning, they would tell you that the 

18 environmental extremist war on coal is really a 

19 war on prosperity both for Moffat County and the 

20 entire nation. Western Colorado has never 

21 recovered from the Great Recession. Energy is 

22 the life blood of our economy.

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1 Just in Moffat County our coal-fired 

2 power plant is responsible for $428 million per 

3 year in direct and indirect impact to our area.

4 Maybe in Washington, D.C., that's not very much 

5 money, but here, in the heartland of America, it 

6 is.

7 Coal means that kids can go to school and 

8 get an education. Coal means that families can 

9 buy homes and put food on the table. Our coal 

10 mines and power plants are the largest taxpayers 

11 in both Moffat and Routt Counties. Coal and 

12 abundant, reliable, affordable electricity lift 

13 people out of poverty. That is true worldwide, 

14 and it is true here in Colorado.

15 This isn't some abstract bureaucratic 

16 exercise to the people of Northwest Colorado. To 

17 us this is personal. The color that I wear today 

18 is blue. It represents my neighbors, friends, 

19 and the hardworking people of Northwest Colorado 

20 who are striving for a better life and a better 

21 future for their children and grandchildren. My 

22 color represents my constituents who stay up all 

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1 night, work weekends and holidays so that others 

2 can use their computers and smart phones any 

3 time, day or night.

4 Moffat County deserves better than to be 

5 turned into another Detroit, Michigan. No amount 

6 of job retraining can replace an $85,000 a year 

7 job. Let me be clear. Carbon dioxide is not a 

8 pollutant. Carbon, oxygen, along with hydrogen 

9 are key components of life on this earth. And no 

10 matter how many times extremists say that carbon 

11 dioxide is a pollutant, that doesn't change the 

12 fact that it is not.

13 Nations like Germany, Australia have 

14 realized that carbon dioxide restrictions are 

15 ridiculous and counterproductive to a strong and 

16 vibrant economy.

17 If EPA's plan to reduce carbon dioxide by 

18 30 percent is implemented, you might as well tell 

19 the whole truth to the American people that they 

20 are being asked to endure a 30 percent further 

21 reduction in their standard of living. Again, 

22 let me be clear: This is a formula for poverty, 

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1 economic slavery. It is not in the DNA of the 

2 American people to live in serfdom. The world 

3 needs a strong America, and a strong America 

4 relies on affordable energy. Thank you.

5 MR. EMERY: Hello, my name is Robert 

6 Emery. And it's E-M-E-R-Y. Thank you for 

7 allowing me to comment on the carbon pollution 

8 standards for existing power plants.

9 I moved to Denver, Colorado, from Denver, 

10 North Carolina, a year ago. The money and power 

11 of fossil fuel related companies was evident in 

12 North Carolina. And my move was, in part, 

13 related to air pollution's negative effect on the 

14 health of my wife and me. We lived near a coal15 fired power plant and were affected by coal plant 

16 air pollution from a nearby plant as well as 

17 plants west of us that delivered their air 

18 pollution through eastward moving weather air 

19 masses.

20 However, I can say that I moved away from 

21 the fossil fuel industry, money, and influence; 

22 though I am glad I moved before coal ash was 

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1 dumped into my drinking water. 

2 I'm extremely disappointed in the fossil 

3 fuel industry position that anthropogenic or 

4 human caused global warning -- and that's AGW --

5 is unproven or a hoax. There is no scientific 

6 evidence to support a natural cause -- non AGW, 

7 that is -- of the accelerated climate change we 

8 are experiencing.

9 There are reams of studies, and about 98 

10 percent of climate scientists validating that AGW 

11 is real. It is obvious that fossil fuel industry 

12 is only interested in making money on oil, gas, 

13 and coal, and are not interested in the 

14 devastating impact it's beginning to have on our 

15 planet and ourselves.

16 Remember DDT, tobacco, and asbestos? I 

17 do not know why all the money they have that they 

18 haven't put research and development into 

19 renewable technologies and been the leaders of 

20 the change taking us to new technologies and a 

21 possible continuance of the human race. Read 

22 Sixth Extinction.

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1 The impacts of this warming are many and 

2 various, but an obvious one is the increase in 

3 the number of climate-related loss events. 

4 I put a chart in my comments produced by 

5 Munich Re, a worldwide insurance risk resource. 

6 It's easy to see from the chart that the trend of 

7 weather incidents which I believe is the result 

8 of AGW -- these climate-related events have cost 

9 the State of Colorado over $600 million in 

10 federal disaster aid in 2011 and 2012. 

11 The chart basically shows the number of 

12 weather-related incidents which insurance 

13 companies reference was around 300 in 1980. 

14 That's gone up as an almost straight line, linear 

15 straight line, up to 2013 where we now have 

16 approximately 800 events per year.

17 Coal burning for power is the worst 

18 offender. I know that there are people that have 

19 no other living than to mine the coal, a filthy, 

20 dangerous job that doesn't pay much, but they 

21 need to adapt. There should be a program to move 

22 them to other job opportunities, though I can see 

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1 the coal companies do not have an incentive to 

2 help here. 

3 I think we all have to feel a little 

4 embarrassed that Germany leads in photovoltaic 

5 solar energy production with projections that 

6 China will beat Germany within the decade.

7 Where is the U.S. leadership in renewable 

8 energy production? Why aren't we leading in this 

9 technology arena? We have the expertise, but if 

10 we don't use it, we will lose it.

11 Even stopping the CO2 emissions now will 

12 not change the fact that we have added 

13 significant amounts of greenhouse gases to the 

14 atmosphere and will continue to experience the 

15 negative impacts of this.

16 I applaud the EPA's carbon pollution 

17 standards and wholeheartedly support them and 

18 hope others will see the folly of continuing to 

19 add carbon to the atmosphere. This is a first 

20 step. Thank you.

21 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Thank you both 

22 very much.

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1 MR. MCGRATH: Thank you.

2 MS. NOONAN: Up next Stanley Sturgill. 

3 (Turned on microphone.)

4 MS. NOONAN: Up next, may I please have 

5 Stanley Sturgill and Matt Jones? And on deck we 

6 have William Canford and James Hughes.

7 And if Mr. Canford and Mr. Hughes would 

8 like to sit in the chairs in the back behind the 

9 speakers' table, that would be fine.

10 MR. STURGILL: My name is (clearing 

11 throat) -- excuse me. My name is Stanley 

12 Sturgill.

13 MS. NOONAN: I'm sorry, Mr. Sturgill. 

14 One second, let me --

15 MR. STURGILL: Okay.

16 MS. NOON: -- is Matt Jones here? Okay. 

17 Great. Thanks. We'll wait till you're both 

18 seated.

19 (Pause.) Mr. Sturgill, please begin.

20 MR. STURGILL: My name is Stanley 

21 Sturgill, and I live in southeastern Kentucky in 

22 Harlan County at the foot of the highest peak in 

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1 Kentucky. I had a lot I wanted to say, but after 

2 I get here I see we have five minutes, so I'll 

3 have to submit a lot of mine by the October 16th 

4 deadline.

5 But I'm 69 years old. I'm a retired coal 

6 miner with 41 years of service to the coal-mining 

7 industry. I would like to say that, first off, 

8 the comment of the EPA rules which was made this 

9 morning by the gentleman says each -- the rules 

10 were made to -- to assist the states, each 

11 individual state. I take notice of that. It may 

12 be for each individual state, but that evidently 

13 is not for the citizens. I'm here because of the 

14 health of our citizens of Kentucky.

15 Where I live in southeastern Kentucky, I 

16 live on the very far right side end of it, next 

17 to the Virginia border. Actually, it's just 

18 seven miles. I'm in the last town in 

19 southeastern Kentucky more or less.

20 Within that area of Kentucky, all across 

21 the state, there's 21 locations where these 

22 electrical power plants house 56 -- 56 coal-fired 

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1 burning plants. Now all this pollution includes 

2 CO2, SO2, NOx, and mercury. This all comes 

3 across the State of Kentucky and the last place 

4 that it drops is right on me.

5 I have black lung. I have COPD. I have 

6 other respiratory ailments. And, you know, this 

7 really hurts me. It hurts my children. It hurts 

8 all my family, my grandchildren, and my great 

9 grandchildren.

10 And I'd like to give you just a little 

11 bit of insight from these 21 plants that house 

12 these 56 coal burners. This is not last year, 

13 but a previous year. For one year it contributed 

14 to 779 deaths, 1,252 heart attacks, 12,638 asthma 

15 attacks, 562 hospital emissions -- and part of 

16 that was mine because I've had to go in the 

17 hospital several times because of it -- 468 

18 chronic bronchitis attacks.

19 I just want to say this new proposed rule 

20 -- and tell the EPA -- and I'm just going to say 

21 it like it is. EPA. This room is just a mere 

22 lean in the right direction, but it's just not 

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1 going to work for us.

2 EPA. Then you turn right around -- like 

3 what I was talking about a while ago and give the 

4 very plants in the state where I live additional 

5 breaks. And this is probably because of politics 

6 because of our state Senator -- it has a lot to 

7 do with it -- Mitch McConnell.

8 But what I'm saying is to the EPA this 

9 has got to stop. The EPA -- take a second. Just 

10 think of your name. Think of the millions of the 

11 Americans you -- that you were created to help in 

12 the first place. EPA. Think of all the many 

13 other types of energy that could and should be 

14 used. And we're just -- right now we're -- we're 

15 spinning our wheels. We're not trying to do 

16 anything with this.

17 EPA, you have a significantly -- you have 

18 significantly under estimated the potential for 

19 this energy efficiency. EPA, you have 

20 dangerously under estimated the climate and 

21 health issues from switching like from coal even 

22 to gas. EPA, it's time to listen up. The new 

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1 rule should do more to support a just economic 

2 transition from coal workers and communities. 

3 EPA, your targets for reducing carbon 

4 dioxide pollution by 2030 are way too low and do 

5 not do enough to reduce our risk from climate 

6 change.

7 EPA, most importantly, the very reason 

8 I'm here today -- the reason I flew from Kentucky 

9 to Denver -- the rule does not near enough --

10 does not do near enough to protect the health of 

11 the front line communities, the ones it affected 

12 just like myself, and by the consequences of this 

13 pollution.

14 We're dying -- literally dying for you to 

15 help us. Thank you.

16 MR. JONES: Thank you. Is this on? 

17 Thank you. Can you hear me? No? Am I supposed 

18 to hit this? Is that on now? No?

19 I usually know what I'm doing with this.

20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He's got to turn 

21 the other one off there.

22 MS. NOONAN: Oh, turn the other one off.

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1 MR. JONES: I'll just use this one.

2 MS. NOONAN: Okay.

3 MR. JONES: All right. That works.

4 My name's Matt Jones. I'm a State 

5 Senator -- one of 35 in the state -- representing 

6 Longmont, Louisville, Lafayette, and part of 

7 Erie. 

8 I appreciate you doing this. It must be 

9 mind numbing, having sat on that side of the 

10 table.

11 Let me tell you three quick stories and 

12 make three quick points. And on the line it's 

13 very -- basically we have to be very aggressive 

14 with these rules. That's the bottom line.

15 About four years ago, almost four years 

16 ago now, I was -- as a public lands land manager 

17 on the Four Mile fire fighting that fire. You'll 

18 never forget the constant stream of slurry 

19 bombers coming, running in the tens of millions 

20 of dollars. You never forget a black plume 

21 coming up which you know is a structure because 

22 they burn darker. You'll never forget your 

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1 friend's house burn to the ground while they were 

2 out fighting that fire. That's just Four Mile 

3 Fire four years ago, 169 houses. Thank God only 

4 -- there were no deaths. I'm am amazed by that.

5 At the time it was the most destructive 

6 of the state -- this state's fires in terms of 

7 buildings. But just two years later the High

8 Park Fire up in Larimer County, 259 structures, 

9 almost 40 million to fight, and one person died.

10 Then the Waldo Canyon fire. That broke 

11 that record -- 346 structures, 2 people died.

12 Then the Black Forest fire a year later 

13 -- 488 houses, 2 people died.

14 If you have a chance, go look it up. 

15 YouTube video about megafires by 60 Minutes, but 

16 the bottom line is if you think this is just a 

17 Colorado thing, they interviewed the Chief of 

18 Fire Operations in the U.S. talking about how the 

19 fire suppression budget had gone up 10 --

20 sevenfold over 10 years.

21 And Scott Pelley asked the guy, well, you 

22 know a lot of people don't believe in climate 

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1 change; and Mr. Boater said, you won't find them 

2 on the fire line in the American west anymore 

3 because we've had climate change beat into us in 

4 the last 10 or 15 years. We know what we're 

5 dealing with. We're dealing with a period of 

6 climate. In terms of temperature, humidity, 

7 drought, it's not like anything we've seen in our 

8 lifetimes.

9 The other thing is fire season is now 78 

10 days longer based on scientific research. 

11 They're costing us dearly in terms of suppression 

12 cost, property loss, and people dying.

13 In my district last September we were hit 

14 by a flood we had never seen the likes of before. 

15 28,000 dwellings were damaged and almost 2,000 

16 homes were destroyed. The current assessment of 

17 total flood damage is about 3.36 billion.

18 My county's going for a sales tax 

19 increase to pay for the damage. That's our 

20 future.

21 More importantly, our infrastructures 

22 stink. There's some good research been done at 

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1 CU by Dr. Paul Janowski, and this comes from the 

2 Daily Camera. It will change -- what constitutes 

3 normal weather in various regions. Higher 

4 temperatures for more sustained periods of time, 

5 higher or lower average humidity and rainfall

6 that will tax buildings, roads, bridges that were 

7 built for one set of conditions and now have to 

8 function for another.

9 He started doing this work up in Alaska 

10 where they found that in 34 years roads up there 

11 would last 18 months because of the changing 

12 conditions. He says road surfaces are weaker in 

13 heat. Asphalt gets softer as trucks and cars 

14 pass; you get a lot more potholes, more cracking 

15 -- would be a one-time event but a constant 

16 thing. That's the part we don't talk about, but 

17 that's the part that's going to have a huge 

18 economic impact.

19 So in summary, we face a huge problem. 

20 The 30 percent reduction is low compared to the 

21 challenges that disasters constantly face and the 

22 deaths. It's far more effective to do this now 

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1 than later. You can pay me now or you can pay me 

2 later on this thing, especially low-cost energy 

3 efficiency and wind and solar costs are dropping.

4 True -- Colorado's done a good job with 

5 this, but giving credit for what we've done is 

6 not going to fix the problem, and there will be

7 more mandates in the future, no doubt.

8 So EPA, stay strong. Most regular people 

9 know we have a huge problem. Efficiency and wind 

10 are cheaper. Solar would be competitive. And it 

11 is far cheaper to act strongly now, and I ask you 

12 to do that.

13 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. Thank 

14 you very much. Mr. James Hughes and Mr. William 

15 Canford [phonetic]?

16 And we're going to just take a second and 

17 make sure the microphones are -- are working as 

18 well as they can. Maybe you could turn that one 

19 off and try the other one? Try that.

20 (Microphone testing.)

21 MS. NOONAN: And are you Mr. Canford or 

22 Mr. Hughes?

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1 MR. HUGHES: Mr. Hughes.

2 MS. NOONAN: Mr. Hughes. Is Mr. William 

3 Canford in the room?

4 (No response.)

5 MS. NOONAN: Okay. And I'd like to call 

6 up Michael Hutcheson. Michael Hutcheson. Okay.

7 Chris Jannen. Okay. Chris Jannen. 

8 Okay. 

9 Are you Chris?

10 MR. JANNEN: I'm Chris.

11 MS. NOONAN: You're Chris Jannen.

12 I'm sorry. My apologies.

13 MR. JANNEN: Where do I sit?

14 MS. NOONAN: Right up there.

15 And so, each of you will get five minutes 

16 in case you didn't hear this, and we ask that 

17 both people stay seated at the table until both 

18 speakers are completed.

19 Mr. Hughes, would you like to start?

20 MR. HUGHES: Yes. My name is James 

21 Hughes.

22 MS. NOONAN: And would you spell your 

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1 name, too?

2 MR. HUGHES: J-A-M-E-S, H-U-G-H-E-S.

3 We went to the Kyoto Accords. We were 

4 the bully in the room, and we basically -- what 

5 we said is it's our ball and we're going to walk 

6 away from this and not do anything.

7 You look at the EPA right now. Their --

8 their budget was roughly $9 billion. What did we 

9 return to the extractive industries, the oils 

10 industry? Twenty-one billion. The EPA is a 

11 mouse trying to put out the fire.

12 From the standpoint of what's going on 

13 right now we have -- you look at Kentucky. 

14 They've had mountaintop cutting off. What do 

15 they do? They take all the spoils, heavy metals, 

16 push them over the side and they're saying, well, 

17 we've created flat areas here for building 

18 construction, putting in houses and what have 

19 you.

20 It goes back to the simple fact that the 

21 EPA is a mouse that's trying to roar. They do 

22 not have the money. They do not have the 

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1 pressure in Washington besides all the lobbyists 

2 that are sitting back before the coal industry, 

3 extracting industries. It comes down to the 

4 simple fact that for those who say there's no 

5 global warming, we used to have one Class 5 storm 

6 a generation. Now we have a Class 5 storm around 

7 the world once a month.

8 If we do not change -- people say carbon 

9 dioxide is good for us. We're cutting down 

10 millions of acres of trees in the rain forest. 

11 And what does this do? The carbon cycle is very 

12 simple. You -- carbon dioxide turns -- turns 

13 into oxygen by the trees and all the forests and 

14 what have you.

15 What it comes down to now is the great 

16 commentary about volcanoes is the fact that they 

17 put millions of tons of carbon dioxide in the 

18 air. This is not true. When you put carbon 

19 dioxide in the air -- as you looked at Mount 

20 Saint Helen's, you had massive rain storms. You 

21 combine carbon dioxide and water, and what does 

22 it get? It gets carbolic acid. So we go back to 

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1 Vesuvius, Tambora, any major volcanic eruption 

2 and look at the amount of carbon dioxide in the 

3 ice in the Arctic. There's negligible increase. 

4 And onward and downward.

5 For those who don't believe in global 

6 warming, I pat you on the back, and as the old 

7 saying is, you have the right to your opinion, 

8 but you don't have the right to the facts. Thank 

9 you.

10 MS. NOONAN: Can you --

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's very 

12 difficult to hear back here. It's all muffled.

13 MS. NOONAN: We're trying to --

14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Move the 

15 microphone further away from you.

16 MR. JANNEN: Do I start going?

17 MS. NOONAN: No, no, please wait.

18 Can you -- can you stay seated? Thank

19 you.

20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Try not to be 

21 quite so close to the mike. When you speak, I'm 

22 getting a lot of feedback from the recording.

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1 MS. NOONAN: Okay. So, for the room, we 

2 are trying to change out the mikes. And I 

3 apologize for the sound quality at this point. 

4 We are going to ask the speakers also to take a 

5 little step back from the mike so that we can 

6 hear you clearly. That may be a little too far.

7 MR. JANNEN: Okay.

8 MS. NOONAN: Maybe you could say test a 

9 little bit and see how that sounds?

10 MR. JANNEN: Hello. Is that good?

11 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Okay. Thank you.

12 We ready to begin? Okay. Please start. 

13 Thank you.

14 MR. JANNEN: What if I don't want to go 

15 the full five minutes; is that cool?

16 MS. NOONAN: You're good.

17 MR. JANNEN: Okay. So my name's Chris 

18 Jannen. I didn't really prepare anything. Oh.

19 Hello.

20 So my name's Chris Jannen. I didn't 

21 really prepare anything, but I'm part of the 

22 solar industry, and I have been for two and a 

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1 half years. It's something I believe in. And 

2 cleaner power is something that I think we must 

3 do.

4 I have two kids, and I believe just for 

5 the future we need to have cleaner energy. So, I 

6 don't know. Everybody -- I don't know. Sorry.

7 I believe that with our homes we need to 

8 be reducing our loads and just focusing on energy 

9 efficiency and then trying to get off of fossil 

10 fuels and coal. We don't need it for -- I don't 

11 know. We need to focus more on sustainability 

12 and being able to push forward.

13 And I think I'm done.

14 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Great. Thank you 

15 both so much.

16 MR. JANNEN: Thank you.

17 MS. NOONAN: All right. 

18 (Discussion off the record.)

19 MS. NOONAN: Michael Hutchins -- Michael 

20 Hutcheson.

21 MR. HUTCHESON: Right.

22 MS. NOONAN: Oh, great. Thank you so 

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1 much. And next up on deck Karen Hadden and Karey

2 Christ-Janer?

3 And if you like -- and if Karen and Karey

4 would like to sit in the chairs behind the 

5 speakers so you'll be ready for the next round? 

6 Thank you.

7 Okay. Please remember to spell your 

8 name. And, Mr. Hutcheson, would you like to 

9 begin?

10 Turn -- turn this mike off. Now. Thank 

11 you.

12 MR. HUTCHESON: Can you hear me?

13 Hutcheson, H-U-T-C-H-E-S-O-N. My name is 

14 Michael Hutcheson, and I’m an environmental 

15 engineer for Ameren Corporation. Ameren is a 

16 public utility holding company with electric and 

17 gas utility operating subsidiaries serving over 

18 three million customers in Missouri and Illinois.

19 Ameren believes the proposed rule is 

20 legally and technically flawed, will result in 

21 significant cost increases to our customers, our 

22 businesses, cause job losses, and damage to the 

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1 economy.

2 Our -- before I discuss our concerns, I 

3 will describe what Ameren has been doing to 

4 protect the environment and our plans going 

5 forward.

6 For many years Ameren has been taking 

7 steps to reduce emissions with the goal of 

8 transitioning our fleet to a cleaner, more 

9 diverse portfolio. We have installed scrubbers 

10 and other pollutions control devices, improved 

11 unit efficiency, converted landfill gas to 

12 energy, contracted cooling power, expanded our 

13 nuclear capacity, promoted and are stalling solar 

14 power, increased hydro capacity and implemented 

15 significant energy efficiency programs in both 

16 Illinois and Missouri.

17 We have made progress in reducing our 

18 carbon footprint and are executing a 20-year plan 

19 designed to reduce emissions even further in a 

20 responsible manner. Our plan involves adding 

21 more renewables, combined cycle natural gas, 

22 increasing energy efficiency, retiring coal 

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1 plants at the end of their useful lives and 

2 replacing them with cleaner resources as well as 

3 retaining options for greater levels of nuclear 

4 generation.

5 Our plan can achieve the 30 percent 

6 reduction from 2005 emission levels over a 

7 slightly longer time frame at a cost to consumers 

8 that we currently estimate at nearly $4 billion 

9 lower than the cost of EPA's proposed rule for 

10 ramming customers along.

11 Turning to EPA's proposal Ameren 

12 recommends that EPA define and limit the emission 

13 standards based solely on what is achievable at 

14 existing power plants.

15 States should then be given the 

16 flexibility to develop programs that achieve 

17 equivalent emission reductions. If EPA rejects 

18 this proposal, numerous other changes should be 

19 made, and I will highlight a couple of them now.

20 First and foremost, EPA should eliminate 

21 the aggressive interim goals that start in 2020. 

22 Failure to make this adjustment will cost Ameren 

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1 customers nearly $2 billion by 2020. We 

2 recommend that you replace interim requirements 

3 with a directive to states to develop non binding 

4 emission reduction milestones that are reasonably 

5 achievable and reflect the state's view of the 

6 appropriate glide path to the final state 

7 reduction goal.

8 This single action will greatly reduce 

9 the cost of the rule and will provide greater 

10 flexibility to the states.

11 We also believe the target compliance 

12 date should not be set in stone in 2030. Rather, 

13 states should be given the flexibility to extend 

14 the date in order to allow the orderly transition 

15 of generation fleets. This will help mitigate 

16 the potential for liability concerns and rate 

17 shock which would be particularly harmful to our 

18 fixed and low income customers.

19 For Ameren the compliance date would be 

20 2035, yet significant reductions would occur 

21 prior to that time. These changes would save 

22 Ameren customers $4 billion when compared to the 

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1 EPA's proposal and still achieve similar 

2 reductions. Ameren believes the rule will not 

3 properly credit coal plant retirements that are 

4 not replaced with new generation under a rate 

5 based compliance program.

6 It is assumed that under a rate based 

7 program both the emissions of CO2 and the 

8 megawatt hours generated from retired coal plants 

9 are removed from the emission rate calculation 

10 when determining compliance. This approach does 

11 not properly reflect the emission reductions 

12 gained because it produces only a minor reduction 

13 in the overall emission rate.

14 In order to properly reflect the benefits 

15 of coal plant retirements these units should be 

16 treated as zero emitting units whereby the 

17 associated megawatt hours remain in the 

18 calculation similar to the treatment of energy 

19 efficiency. 

20 In addition Ameren believes the rule 

21 suffers from over aggressive assumptions about 

22 the reduction potential --

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1 (Buzzer sounded.)

2 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Please stay 

3 seated.

4 Go ahead. Can you turn your mike off, 

5 Mr. Hutchens?

6 MR. HUTCHESON: Sorry.

7 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

8 MR. COMYFORD: Good morning. My name is 

9 Dale Comyford -- D-A-L-E, C-O-M-Y-F-O-R-D. I'm a 

10 retired engineer, licensed in Colorado. I'm kind 

11 of horrified to observe that almost no one today 

12 seems to know the difference between carbon and 

13 carbon dioxide. I wish now I had brought a 

14 little piece of carbon so that I can show people 

15 what carbon is. And, of course, carbon dioxide 

16 is a gas. It's also known as CO2 which is the 

17 chemical name.

18 When I was in grade school, I learned 

19 that the entire atmosphere is our greenhouse. 

20 It's a greenhouse gas. The whole atmosphere. 

21 Not very many people know that today, I'm 

22 observing.

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1 The number one gas in our atmosphere is 

2 water vapor. That's the most important one as 

3 far as regulating the temperature on the earth.

4 To give you an example of how the 

5 atmosphere works, let's take a look at the moon. 

6 The moon has almost no atmosphere. And the 

7 temperature on the moon -- we know because we've 

8 been there -- goes from 250 degrees Fahrenheit

9 and then it drops down to a minus 380 degrees 

10 Fahrenheit in a matter of minutes whenever the 

11 sun drops below the moon's horizon. Almost no 

12 one knows that today.

13 The atmosphere is made up of water vapor, 

14 humidity. That's what makes up our clouds. How 

15 much does a cloud weigh? Just wait and see how 

16 -- what happens whenever the rain and snow falls.

17 Pretty heavy. That's -- that's what happens. 

18 That's -- anyway, the second most 

19 important component of our atmosphere as far as 

20 what -- volume is nitrogen. Almost nobody knows 

21 that. The third is oxygen. Oxygen is what we 

22 breathe.

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1 And then we have argon. That's the next 

2 most common part of our atmosphere. And finally, 

3 we get down to carbon dioxide. How much carbon 

4 dioxide is in our atmosphere today and has 

5 forever been?

6 Four molecules per 10,000 molecules of 

7 other gases in our atmosphere -- not very much. 

8 Okay?

9 Now, very few people know today that 

10 plants need carbon dioxide to live. Without 

11 carbon dioxide, there is no photosynthesis. Not 

12 very many people know about photosynthesis.

13 And without photosynthesis -- oxygen and 

14 -- I mean carbon dioxide in the atmosphere plants 

15 would die. And without the photosynthesis 

16 process the plants use to create oxygen, we would 

17 die. Not many people know that either today. 

18 Okay?

19 Now, my brother owns some pretty big 

20 greenhouses out in southern New Mexico. And he 

21 raises organic vegetables, flowers, you name it, 

22 sells them commercially. And he, like a lot of 

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1 -- well, most other commercial greenhouse gases 

2 knows that he gets stronger plants, faster 

3 growing plants, and healthier plants -- plants 

4 that can be better taker of disease by increasing 

5 the carbon dioxide contained in his greenhouses. 

6 And he does that. Okay?

7 Now I'm totally amazed and horrified that 

8 the EPA does not understand that. The bottom 

9 line is the President has promised to increase 

10 the -- make the cost of energy sky rocket. Okay?

11 He could just as easily have said I'm 

12 going to make the cost of living sky rocket 

13 because in addition to the cost of getting to 

14 work, energy is the number one component of food 

15 cost, bar none.

16 (Buzzer sounded.)

17 MR. COMYFORD: Proposed anti CO2, anti 

18 photosynthesis, and anti core and middle class 

19 rules should be -- should not be included.

20 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

21 Mr. Hutchens, I have one question for 

22 you.

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1 MR. HUTCHESON: Yes.

2 MS. NOONAN: Did I hear correctly that 

3 Ameren could meet the -- the -- or the 2035 

4 deadline would be more amenable to you than the 

5 2030?

6 MR. HUTCHESON: Yes, ma'am.

7 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

8 Okay. Coming up next we have Karen 

9 Hadden and Karey Christ-Janer. And on deck 

10 Thomas Smith-Smitty and Greg Schaefer, and Mr. 

11 Smith-Smitty and Schaefer, if you would like to 

12 join us, sitting behind the speakers, that would 

13 speed things along.

14 Okay. Ms. Hadden, would you like to 

15 start?

16 MS. HADDEN: Good morning. I'm Karen 

17 Hadden. I'm the Executive Director of the SEED 

18 Coalition, Sustainable Energy and Economic 

19 Development Coalition, in Texas.

20 We felt that this hearing was important 

21 enough that I should come and be here today. And 

22 I want to first thank you for proposing a rule 

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1 that will help with the transition to cleaner, 

2 less polluting, and more affordable energy, which 

3 is badly needed.

4 Climate change is real, and the impacts 

5 are being felt already through intensified 

6 storms, flooding, hurricanes, drought, and 

7 wildfires. We are experiencing them now in 

8 Texas. And we cannot afford the cost of not 

9 taking action in terms of lives and financial 

10 impacts.

11 The rule should be strengthened to 

12 require the percentage of renewable energy to be 

13 increased to 20 percent by 2020 and 30 percent by 

14 2030. 

15 I'm from Austin. And in Austin our 

16 utility has already hit a peak of 50 percent of 

17 our energy coming from renewables. It can be 

18 done. It is happening. It's now, and it's 

19 affordable. 

20 The recent power purchase that was 

21 contracted was at 4.8 cents a kilowatt hour for 

22 solar, and we think that that's going to come 

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1 through.

2 We urge you to increase the energy 

3 efficiency increment so that it's two percent per 

4 year additionally by 2020 and three percent by 

5 2030.

6 Now the 2000's were the hottest U.S. 

7 decade on record. For us, in Texas, in 2011 it 

8 was the hottest summer. We had 100 degree 

9 temperatures for 40 days straight. This is a 

10 problem.

11 Agricultural losses in Texas and Oklahoma 

12 for that year and 2012 totaled 10 billion. We 

13 can't afford to continue. We have to act.

14 Flooding is costing lives and property. 

15 We had a flood in Austin that was unexpected --

16 flash flood -- worst that we've seen since the 

17 1800's. 

18 The creek, Onion Creek, rose 11 feet in 

19 15 minutes, and it crested at a record of 41 

20 feet. No one could get out. There were all 

21 kinds of rescues. There were 548 homes and 

22 businesses lost. And to the rest of the city it 

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1 was looking like an ordinary rain while all these 

2 other people were losing their homes and 

3 businesses. Four people were killed, and the 

4 Travis County cost was 28 million. We cannot 

5 afford to not act.

6 Co-ops can and should be benefitting from 

7 this rule. Many of the co-ops are outspoken 

8 opponents of the rule; although they should be in 

9 favor of it and looking for economic advantage 

10 which they can and should obtain. 

11 Many of the generation and transmission 

12 co-ops serve many states, and we urge that --

13 that you allow excess renewable generation or 

14 credits to be sold to utilities in other states 

15 to help meet the requirements of the rule and 

16 that you create a special subchapter in the rule 

17 to ensure that co-ops do benefit from the 

18 transition to clean energy.

19 Co-ops serve 75 percent of the U.S. 

20 electric service area, so this is really 

21 important.

22 Nuclear power incentives should be cut. 

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1 Nuclear power is not clean, and it is not 

2 affordable. In fact, it's throwing billions of 

3 dollars down the drain that we could do so much 

4 more with that could create clean energy jobs 

5 that are going to be needed with this transition.

6 The rule pushes to preserve, expand, and 

7 subsidize nuclear reactors, but there are safety 

8 risks with aging reactors. And they should, 

9 instead, be phased out and replaced by more 

10 affordable and safer renewable energy. 

11 So, again, we support the rule. We urge 

12 you to strengthen it and move further; and we 

13 want to emphasize over and over again that we 

14 cannot afford the cost of inaction. Thank you.

15 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Wait. Can you stay? 

16 And can you turn off your mike? Thank you.

17 MS. CHRIST-JANER: Hi, my name is Karey

18 Crist-Janer. That's K-A-R-E-Y. Last name is 

19 C-H-R-I-S-T -- hyphen -- J-A-N-E-R.

20 And I first wanted to just give a 

21 tremendous thanks for the draft rules. I think 

22 it's a historic moment and a step in the right 

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1 direction. I know you're going to hear over and 

2 over that it's not enough, and I -- I agree that 

3 it looked modest to me when I first looked at it, 

4 but I still think that we have to look at it in 

5 historical context. And we can be a model, I 

6 think, for other countries.

7 I'm glad that you have given states 

8 flexibility and freedom in implementing the 

9 rules; however, I feel that you should go further 

10 in guiding states even though I know you don't 

11 regulate the -- the states in particular -- about 

12 how to integrate high levels of renewable energy. 

13 We're hearing over and over that -- that we have 

14 to watch out for, you know, huge, steep increases 

15 in rates. 

16 And I think that the APRI study that came 

17 out just within the last six months or so, the 

18 integrated grid, I think is a very good, you 

19 know, elegant piece of guidance in that area not 

20 only within states but also regionally through 

21 energy and balance markets and opening up 

22 opportunities for trading energy so that we can 

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1 get to higher levels without so much impact.

2 Because they do advocacy both here and in 

3 California, I read literally thousands of pages 

4 of filings in CPUC in California. And as I'm 

5 sure you're aware, California is already starting 

6 to face integration issues in the shoulder months 

7 for solar. And, you know, the classic Duck 

8 Chart. 

9 And I think that also looking at their 

10 new flexible capacity rules which do include 

11 penalties for utilities that are, you know, load 

12 serving entities that are not meeting the rules, 

13 is all pointing in the direction that we need to 

14 look at demand response, along with energy 

15 efficiency, along with the -- a right -- a proper 

16 blend of renewable energy that I also believe is 

17 best done through community energy measures and 

18 local government partnerships to be the most 

19 effective.

20 My worry is that we will move forward 

21 with these types of rules and then we'll become 

22 like Germany. They were brave to do what they 

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1 did, but as I think many of us know, there's a 

2 lot of problems with Germany and lack of 

3 coordination. And we don't want pressure over

4 rates, you know, within -- you know, this time 

5 frame. We want to keep energy affordable and 

6 have renewable energy for the most people 

7 possible from an environmental justice 

8 standpoint.

9 I also believe that utilities -- although 

10 sometimes I'm branded as a shell, I actually 

11 think that utilities need to make money. I think 

12 they need to keep their credit rating so that 

13 they'll be able to make the capital investments 

14 that they need, for example, for storage, 

15 including pumped hydro, which I think is an 

16 opportunity in the west that there's, you know, 

17 tremendous possibility that with new technology.

18 But in order to keep the utilities whole, 

19 they have to be incentivized to create programs 

20 where they make a margin or an extra margin on 

21 programs that will integrate high levels of 

22 renewable energy affordably because just a 

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1 haphazard goal or just only solar net metering is 

2 really not going to get us there. And, you know, 

3 you're going to see a constant fight, I think, 

4 between the utilities and the public who we all 

5 want more renewable energy. That's what I 

6 literally devote my time -- full time to.

7 But we want to do it -- I personally want 

8 to see it done affordably, and if it doesn't 

9 please everyone, then we just have to be 

10 realistic about how that actually can happen.

11 And since California is leading the way, 

12 I also wanted to say, you know, in deference to, 

13 you know, my person here that I was living in 

14 California at the time when it got rained on by 

15 the Fukushima fallout. And it was a very panicky 

16 type of feeling. They were measuring in 

17 Berkeley, you know, the levels. And I don't 

18 think nuclear is ultimately the answer 

19 whatsoever. I feel that very strongly, that it's 

20 very possible to go to a new -- new clean energy 

21 economy.

22 I'm glad that you've seen Colorado as a 

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1 model, but again, I also think we need to go 

2 further, and I think that seeing another example 

3 of XL energy hitting in 2013 over 60 percent wind 

4 energy partially due to their partnering with the 

5 federal agencies here was incredibly inspiring to 

6 see that capability. Of course, that was at four 

7 in the morning, and we have a long way to go, but 

8 I want to just say that -- that I very much 

9 appreciate -- and just keep going. And I hope 

10 that you will go further but also look at 

11 affordable and environmental justice. Thanks.

12 MS. NOONAN: I actually have a question.

13 I actually have a question for both of you.

14 Ms. Hadden, could you submit for the 

15 record any information you have about co-ops? We 

16 would appreciate anything you have for the 

17 record.

18 And if you could submit the famous Duck 

19 Chart and also anything you have about pump 

20 hydro, we would especially appreciate those 

21 comments for the record.

22 Thank you both very much.

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1 MS. CHRIST-JANER: Great. Great. Some 

2 additional information is in the packet provided, 

3 and Tom Smitty Smith is on his way to this room.

4 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

5 MS. CHRIST-JANER: Oh, he's here.

6 MR. SMITH: Which of you -- of us would 

7 you like to go first?

8 MS. NOONAN: Please.

9 MR. SMITH: Good morning. My name is Tom 

10 Smith or Smitty. I'm Director of Public 

11 Citizens' Texas office. We're a national non12 profit consumer organization with over 300,000 

13 activists and members.

14 I'm also here today as a Texan, and as a 

15 member of an electric co-op, and as a member of 

16 the task force that is designing Austin Energy's 

17 generating plan for the future.

18 And I'm here with a simple message. 

19 There are some here -- that will come here today 

20 and tomorrow that say the cost of these rules is 

21 far too high. And my response to that is the 

22 cost of inaction is far too high. And in order 

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1 to protect our consumers and our pocketbooks we 

2 need to take action now to reduce costs.

3 You've heard a lot and you'll hear a lot 

4 about a lot of the changes in the climate and 

5 what they're costing America. The drought is an 

6 extraordinary function. We've seen over $8.7 

7 billion in 2011 in terms of crop losses and crop 

8 failures resulting in higher food costs as a 

9 result of the drought.

10 We had extraordinary wildfires in Texas. 

11 And at one point we had over 1,500 wildfires 

12 going at one time. What that meant was the 

13 ability of our farmers and ranchers to get 

14 together and put out those fires taxed all of our 

15 fire departments all across the state and in 

16 other parts of the country were being brought in 

17 to help us fight those wildfires.

18 Our health impacts were significant. 

19 We're seeing changes in the temperature that are 

20 now causing diseases we thought we had eradicated 

21 come back across the border and causing us to 

22 spend money on eradication of pest-borne diseases 

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1 that were -- had been eliminated a generation 

2 ago.

3 The cost of -- due to ozone and to high 

4 pollen counts the cost of asthma is going up in 

5 our cities and the number of people who are 

6 seeking health care, and the ability of people to 

7 even get inhalers is being impacted by the change 

8 in temperature.

9 As a result, our insurance costs for 

10 health, and fire, and floods are going up. And 

11 more importantly and perhaps significantly the 

12 cost of water has increased across Texas as a 

13 result of the drought and the inability of our --

14 to recharge our reservoirs.

15 No state has the ability to benefit more 

16 from the changes in climate and the solutions 

17 that you are proposing than Texas. And we -- and 

18 one of the reports just recently released by the 

19 government talked about the states that are most 

20 likely to benefit from these rules, and Texas was 

21 amongst the top five because of our renewable 

22 potential and our potential to sell natural gas 

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1 to others. And we've got some problems with gas 

2 I'll get into in a minute.

3 But we now have about 10 percent of our 

4 energy coming from renewable energy on an average 

5 year, and we're likely to get to 20 percent by 

6 2020 pretty easily and potentially by 2016 if 

7 all the plans on the table are met.

8 The good news is that the number of jobs 

9 in renewable energy are about 120,000 people 

10 employed in that industry now according to the 

11 Governor's office but only 23,000 people in the 

12 coal industries. And we -- and according to the 

13 University of North Texas.

14 So we now have almost a four to one ratio 

15 of people working in renewables compared to the 

16 coal industry. And we mine a lot of coal in 

17 Texas and burn a lot of coal. And we also lead 

18 the nation in terms of emissions from our power 

19 plants and all other sources. And for that we 

20 apologize to everybody else in this room and the 

21 rest of the nation.

22 We can also save a lot of energy and save 

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1 a lot of money. Studies indicate we could save 

2 23 percent of the peak energy for less than the 

3 cost of generating it.

4 Now, we've already cut through energy 

5 efficiency renewable energy programs our global 

6 warming emissions by 9.9 percent since 2005.

7 Now I spoke to one of the PUC 

8 commissioners about this hearing, and he asked me 

9 to pass on two messages to you. One is we ought 

10 to look at going back to 2005 as our baseline and 

11 getting credit for that. And secondly, that you 

12 just can't change a market based generating 

13 system by passing a rule. That would bust the 

14 basic principle of the market that we have in 

15 Texas and that it may well mean that the cheaper 

16 sources of electricity can't displace gas or 

17 coal.

18 And in Texas that means that wind is now 

19 displacing gas. And as a result of that the 

20 market would be upset, and we would have a 

21 dysfunctional system, one that you're not wanting 

22 to have designed.

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1 Now, we also have a lot of concern about 

2 natural gas, and we think you've underestimated 

3 seriously the amount of methane coming from 

4 leaking gas wells, gas pipes, and so forth.

5 Now, we have -- I'm also a member of an 

6 electric co-op. And one of the messages I would 

7 like to share with you is that we think that 

8 there ought to be a separate chapter or a 

9 subsection of these rules designed for electric 

10 co-ops to allow them to create their own state 

11 implementation plans similar to what other people 

12 have done to allow them to trade credits 

13 elsewhere.

14 Thank you very much for your time.

15 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Mr. Schaefer?

16 MR. SCHAEFER: Nothing happening.

17 MS. NOONAN: Turn your off. Turn -- turn 

18 it off?

19 MR. SMITH: Turn mine off? All right. 

20 Let's try that off

21 MR. SCHAEFER: That works. 

22 My name is Greg, G-R-E-G, Schaefer, 

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1 S-C-H-A-E-F-E-R. And I'm the Vice-President of 

2 External Affairs for Arch Coal's western 

3 operations.

4 I've been in the coal business over 30 

5 years, including my time as a consultant 

6 preparing mining and reclamation plans for 

7 various mining operations in the western U.S.

8 I found my responsibilities to be 

9 challenging and rewarding as well as providing a 

10 salary and benefit package that has allowed me to 

11 raise and educate a family.

12 I'm now nearing retirement as are many of 

13 my friends and colleagues, and I worry about what 

14 will become of the industry that has taken care 

15 of my family for so many years. I am frustrated 

16 by various groups that are trying to shut down 

17 the coal industry and simply eliminate those jobs 

18 with no remorse or conscience. In part I include 

19 the EPA in this statement as their regulatory 

20 pursuits have added greatly to that uncertainty.

21 As stated earlier, the coal industry pays 

22 a wage that will support a family. It has often 

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1 been said that taking a job with the coal 

2 industry results in that employee becoming 

3 instant middle class. At our mining operation in 

4 Wyoming hourly rates range from 21.75 per hour to 

5 32.90 per hour. These jobs would be difficult if 

6 not impossible to replace should the coal mining 

7 jobs be eliminated.

8 The risk of job loss hits pretty close to 

9 home for me. My son is a haul truck driver and 

10 depends on the job to provide for his son, which 

11 includes health insurance. My grandson's

12 maternal grandmother is a haul truck driver as is 

13 his maternal grandfather. My other grandson's 

14 grandfather is an executive with an equipment 

15 supplier to the coal industry.

16 EPA is asking a lot from families like 

17 mine who simply want to provide for and raise 

18 their families, particularly since it's evident 

19 that EPA's 111 D proposal would not do a lot 

20 toward addressing climate change because of the 

21 worldwide emissions of CO2.

22 One further note is in Wyoming coal 

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1 mining is schools. Bonus revenue from coal 

2 leasing has resulted in the construction of new 

3 schools in every county in the State of Wyoming. 

4 This is a wonderful legacy for our industry 

5 because included in the school facilities' 

6 website it states the school facilities' 

7 department serves a unique clientele of 48 school 

8 districts. These are home to over 90,000 K 

9 through 12 students and 21.8 million square feet 

10 of educational facilities.

11 Since 2002 the state has allocated 2.7 

12 billion for construction projects, including 

13 appropriations for planning, design, 

14 construction, land purchases, and infrastructure.

15 This past week the State of Wyoming and 

16 through the budgeting process is looking at how 

17 they're going to fund schools into the future and 

18 have actually run its area over that zeros out 

19 revenue from coal leasing.

20 Thank you for the opportunity to speak, 

21 and I will respectfully ask for EPA to withdraw 

22 the proposal at this time.

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1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Thank you both 

2 very much.

3 Up next we have Linda Kaley and Jennifer 

4 Vervier. Okay. Ms. Kaley, would you like to 

5 start?

6 MS. KALEY: My name is --

7 MS. NOONAN: Don't get to close. Just 

8 one second.

9 (Pause.)

10 MS. NOONAN: I think there is a 

11 microphone that's on somewhere else, and we're 

12 going to get that fixed. So if you don't mind 

13 just waiting a second, we want to be able to hear 

14 you.

15 (Pause.)

16 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Ms. Kaley and Ms. 

17 Vervier, my apologies. And would you please?

18 MS. KALEY: My name is Linda Kaley, 

19 L-I-N-D-A, K-A-L-E-Y. And I am from Denver, 

20 Colorado, and a member of the Sierra Club.

21 I want to thank you for holding this 

22 listening session on the Clean Power Plan to cut 

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1 carbon, carbon dioxide pollution from fossil fuel 

2 burning plants.

3 Planet earth is becoming unbalanced and 

4 unhealthy by the burning of fossil fuels which 

5 spews carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, 

6 lingering there for hundreds of years or more.

7 During nature's global cycle -- carbon 

8 cycle, the trees and plants store carbon and then 

9 release it when they die. And the oceans absorb 

10 carbon and dissolve carbon back into the 

11 atmosphere thus creating a balance cycle.

12 The fossil fuel power plants spew 40 

13 gigatons of carbon into the atmosphere without 

14 any carbon capture, creating an unbalanced 

15 atmosphere. The fossil fuel power plants are the 

16 largest source of carbon pollution in the United 

17 States.

18 Humans are increasing the concentration 

19 of carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere 

20 driving climate change. The carbon in the 

21 earth's atmosphere is now at an unprecedented 

22 level of 400 parts per million and has been for 

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1 the last three months. And climate scientists 

2 are worried that this is going to be a landmark, 

3 and it will become the norm.

4 The anthropogenic carbon pollution is 

5 driving the climate to become hotter and wetter 

6 causing frequent extreme weather events --

7 droughts, fires, floods, landslides. All of 

8 Colorado has experience in the past several 

9 years.

10 And the melting of the arctic sea ice, 

11 glaciers, permafrost, and changes in ecosystems, 

12 habitats, and species, and of course, sinkholes, 

13 hurricanes, and tornados are becoming worse and 

14 more frequent.

15 The carbon pollution from power plants 

16 which contributes to climate change creates a 

17 public health issue for the people of the United 

18 States.

19 Heat causes many health issues in the 

20 human body, and they can only adapt to so much

21 heat before succumbing to dehydration, heat 

22 strokes, heart attacks.

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1 Worsening smog make asthma and lung 

2 disease worse. Extreme flooding, fires, 

3 wildfires, and lack of water availability and --

4 and food sources lead to homelessness, 

5 starvation, migration, conflicts, and a crumbling 

6 infrastructure. And the increasing range of 

7 mosquitoes and ticks which can spread diseases 

8 like West Nile and Lyme Disease.

9 The most vulnerable citizens are the 

10 children, the older adults, and the people living 

11 with heart and lung disease, and the people 

12 living in poverty.

13 I support the clean power plan to reduce 

14 carbon pollution from power plants and the state 

15 programs that will encourage energy efficiency 

16 and renewable energy such as wind, solar, 

17 geothermal.

18 The clean power plan will lead to climate 

19 and health benefits estimated at 55 billion to 93 

20 billion in 2030, avoiding 2,700 to 6,600 

21 premature deaths and 140 to 150 asthma attacks in 

22 children.

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1 The clean power plan is the first step 

2 forward to mitigate human impact on our planet by 

3 cutting the carbon dioxide pollution from power 

4 plants by 30 percent from the 2005 levels and 

5 creating more jobs and careers in the renewable 

6 energy sector and infrastructure.

7 I will close by saying a healthy and 

8 balanced planet earth will support life on earth. 

9 Thank you.

10 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Ms. Vervier? 

11 Okay. Turn this one off.

12 MS. VERVIER: Hi, my name is Jenn 

13 Vervier, J-E-N-N, V-E-R-V-I-E-R. And I'm the 

14 Director of Strategy and Sustainability at New 

15 Belgium Brewing Company in Fort Collins, 

16 Colorado.

17 Thank you for this opportunity to provide 

18 comments in support of robust carbon pollutions 

19 standards for existing power plants.

20 New Belgium has grown from our founder's 

21 basement in 1991 to a million barrel brewer in 

22 Fort Collins, Colorado. And we're currently a 

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1 half a million barrel brewery in Asheville, North 

2 Carolina.

3 While we've been growing our capacity, we 

4 have also invested in renewable energy and energy 

5 efficiency. We harvest the methane produced by 

6 our on-site process water treatment plant to 

7 generate over 15 percent of our electricity. And 

8 by the end of the year we'll have 300 kilowatts 

9 of solar PV on our roofs.

10 We tax ourselves two cents for every 

11 kilowatt hour of fossil fuel electricity we use 

12 to create a fund earmarked for on-site renewable 

13 energy and efficiency projects.

14 We also participated in a multiyear 

15 partnership with the City of Fort Collins and the 

16 Department of Energy to demonstrate distributed 

17 generation, demand response, and peak load 

18 reduction.

19 Because we are 100 percent employee 

20 owned, these investments reflect the commitment 

21 to environmental stewardship of 562 co owners. 

22 So we applaud the EPA's clean power standards. 

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1 We believe that they will help us maintain an 

2 affordable and reliable energy system, cut 

3 pollution, and protect public health all the 

4 while promoting U.S. competitiveness in the 

5 coming decades.

6 Sensible regulations like the EPA clean 

7 power standards are in the best interest of 

8 businesses already working to move us towards 

9 cleaner energy.

10 Internal best practices that companies 

11 like ours deploy are really just the beginning 

12 when it comes to our ability to mitigate climate 

13 change. In order to further reduce our 

14 environmental impact, we need a cleaner grid.

15 At New Belgium we know that good policy 

16 is essential to our efforts while outdated 

17 policies and a failure of government action holds 

18 us back. Regulation is required to create 

19 appropriate market signals.

20 The reason that we have greenhouse gas 

21 reduction goals and we support regulation to 

22 reduce carbon pollution is because the risk that 

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1 climate change poses to our business and to the 

2 communities that we sell beer in across the 

3 country is real. We need clean and healthy air 

4 and water to craft world class beers and to be 

5 able to source world class agricultural products 

6 like barley and hops.

7 Increased frequency of severe storms, sea 

8 level rise, and warmer temperatures will affect 

9 all aspects of the supply chain. 

10 In Colorado we've been suffering from 

11 forest fires and floods. We watch in fear as 

12 other states in the west struggle with epic 

13 drought.

14 At the same time tackling climate change 

15 can be one of America's greatest economic 

16 opportunities. The innovation and ingenuity that 

17 are necessary to meet the challenge will spur 

18 entirely new industries, services, and products 

19 to help grow our economy.

20 For example -- thanks in part to 

21 Colorado's renewable energy standard -- we are 

22 home to both the 10th largest solar PV market and 

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1 the 10th largest wind market in the United 

2 states. In Fort Collins where we are 

3 headquartered the city has served as a national 

4 leader in climate action. Fort Collins was the 

5 first city in the state to establish a renewable 

6 portfolio standard, and in 2008 the city 

7 committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 

8 20 percent below 2005 levels by 2020.

9 The new EPA standards will support and 

10 strengthen the successes we have had at the local 

11 and state level reducing pollution while growing 

12 jobs and growing our economy.

13 So we are pleased to see this sensible 

14 action to combat climate change and diversify our 

15 power supply using free market forces to 

16 determine the best solution for each state.

17 Making world class beer, being 

18 profitable, and honoring the environment go hand 

19 in hand for us. And our customers tell us that 

20 they appreciate the steps we take to make sure 

21 our business, our country, and our planet are on 

22 a course that can be sustained for future 

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1 generations.

2 All sustainable economic development 

3 depends upon the protection of our natural 

4 resources and policies that will drive us towards 

5 a cleaner energy future. Thanks.

6 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. Up next, 

7 Mr. Andrew Lane and Ms. -- or Ariel Esposito. 

8 And behind them Justin Wilson and Graham McCahan

9 would like to sit in the seats behind them -- be 

10 on deck.

11 I'd also like to make the announcement 

12 that the building is approaching capacity, so if 

13 you are feeling like you want to give up your 

14 seats and allow other people to come in and 

15 watch, we would certainly appreciate that. I 

16 will make this announcement again at 11:00 

17 o'clock. So please just be considering that.

18 As you've been here for several hours and 

19 there are other people who have driven far and 

20 flown far, and even local folks would like to be 

21 able to participate in this by being able to 

22 observe. So just keep that in mind, and I'll 

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1 make the announcement again at 11:00. Thank you.

2 Mr. Lane?

3 MR. LANE: So I'll go first. My name is 

4 Andrew Lane. It is the common spelling. Lane is 

5 like a bicycle lane. That's how I get around. 

6 And that is how I have actually -- still 

7 fit into this uniform. My unit has told me I 

8 cannot wear it to talk to you, so I figured I'll 

9 carry it. You can quite see it's almost my 

10 resume. I've been some places and done some 

11 things. I'm probably not a hippie, nor am I an 

12 extremist.

13 For someone to call -- they want to call 

14 people who care about this planet an extremist. 

15 The Army and the foreign defense is going green, 

16 I assure you.

17 Anyone can Google the movie The Burning 

18 Trailer, theburningfilm.com trailer, and you'll 

19 see what I'm talking about. So many admirals and 

20 generals, captains and colonels in the Army, 

21 Marine Corps, Navy speaking. This is a six22 minute trailer. It's powerful.

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1 And to that end my Buckeye Armory which 

2 is about 30 miles west of Phoenix is already 91 

3 percent powered by the sun, from the solar panels 

4 on its roof. Soon the Arizona Army National 

5 Guard is going to install more than enough panels 

6 to more than supply its electricity and feed the 

7 grid with that sunshine that falls in the valley 

8 in central Arizona.

9 Today North America's largest 

10 photovoltaic array is Davis-Monthan Air Force 

11 Base in Tucson. They stole that title from 

12 Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, but the Army 

13 is about to steal it from Davis-Monthan on the 

14 border of Mexico, Fort Huachuca.

15 The Secretary of the Navy was at ASU --

16 I'm also a grad student at Arizona State 

17 University -- and the Secretary of the Navy was 

18 there about eight weeks ago. I got to shake his 

19 hand and meet him.

20 By 2016 the Navy will be 50 percent 

21 renewable fuels, and that includes the Marine 

22 Corps. Everything that burns fuel is a diesel 

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1 engine more or less in the military. And they 

2 will be burning a 50 percent blend of bio diesel 

3 made from algae, canola, or peanut oil, or 

4 something there -- mustard seeds perhaps -- and 

5 then perhaps the other 50 percent from petroleum.

6 Arizona State University is rapidly 

7 powering itself by the sun. It's creeping 

8 towards 40 percent. Anyone who flies into 

9 Phoenix, I would ask you to look down and look 

10 for the vast fields of solar. Those are the 

11 different campuses across the valley that Arizona 

12 State University has. We can power ourselves 

13 from the sunshine. We just have to have 

14 installing.

15 For anyone who denies climate science, I 

16 don't know where you are. And many ostriches 

17 hold head in the ground -- there is so much 

18 evidence now. And I'm happy to say that Hans 

19 Solo and Indiana Jones are on our side. Simply 

20 watch the first episode of Years of Living 

21 Dangerously on YouTube or Showtime's website.

22 Look at Richard Alley's Earth, the 

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1 Operator's Manual, if you still think volcanoes 

2 might have something more to do than fossil 

3 fuels.

4 Watch the movie Chasing Mice and see if 

5 you can see what's happened to the Yukon 

6 territory of glaciers -- what the majority is 

7 happening there.

8 And for one of the coal workers who was 

9 just here, I asked him about The Last Mountain, 

10 another retired coal man made a movie about what 

11 has happened in his community because of coal.

12 Anyone who really likes coal, I would 

13 invite you to live in the shadow of a coal plant, 

14 or a coal mine, or downstream and see how you 

15 feel in a year or two. And try to raise your 

16 kids there, too, and see how they feel.

17 Obviously, I was raised on public radio. 

18 Living on Earth broadcast a few months ago how 

19 Norfolk, Virginia, is already experiencing

20 serious climate change and sea level rise. If 

21 it's a high tide or it rains, they just don't 

22 leave the house.

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1 Just last weekend the Mayor of Miami, 

2 Florida, was on there. He's a trained biologist. 

3 He knows if we don't change what we're doing, the 

4 lower half of Florida is going to be under water 

5 in about a hundred years or so. He has children 

6 as do I. And I can't imagine looking in my 

7 children's eyes and saying things like that.

8 I got to speak to the Arizona State House 

9 a few weeks ago on this very topic about EPA's 

10 regulations of which I might say I applaud as a 

11 first step towards a staircase we need to climb 

12 to get out of this predicament.

13 The sky is falling said the Speaker of 

14 the House. I pointed out to him RGGI in New 

15 England has already seen a 40 percent reduction 

16 in carbon dioxide emissions while reducing costs 

17 by 8 percent.

18 And many think that science will save us, 

19 and I think it will, but we have to make it, buy 

20 it, install it, and use it. We've been burning 

21 coal as humans for 3,000 years. The Chinese, 

22 long ago, began. It's time -- it is time to find 

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1 a better way as Arizona State University says.

2 I can't imagine looking -- I have a young 

3 daughter who's seven and a son who's 12; and I 

4 just can't imagine looking in their eyes and 

5 saying these things. And these small children in 

6 this audience, I feel the same way looking at 

7 them even though I'm not raising them at all.

8 I believe that nuclear energy is super 

9 fabulous when it's 90 million miles away and no 

10 one can get their hands on it, including NASA or 

11 Al Qaeda, and none of the fallout.

12 So I would say to you, the EPA, in 

13 closing to get stronger, stay strong, and again, 

14 great first step.

15 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

16 MS. ESPOSITO: Can everyone hear me? Hi. 

17 My name is Ariel Esposito. My last name is 

18 E-S-P-O-S-I-T-O.

19 So I wanted to start off thanking you for 

20 having me here. I wanted to talk a little bit 

21 about me first and then get into some more 

22 specifics. I've been an environmentalist since 

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1 before I can remember. When I was five, I told

2 my mom I wanted to save the world. I didn't know 

3 exactly what needed saving at that point, but I 

4 joined the World Wildlife Foundation and had 

5 plans to go to China and save the pandas -- my 

6 favorite animal at that point.

7 I grew up in Colorado and seen the direct 

8 impact of negligent environmental regulations. 

9 Many here have seen the bright orange streams due 

10 to acid mining from hundred year old mines.

11 My mother took me to them as part of her 

12 field research. And we can't get away with 

13 negligent climate pollution. We -- now we know. 

14 The science is there. I know this because I am 

15 both a scientist and an engineer. You have a 

16 really smart table right here. I'm a graduate 

17 student at the Colorado School of Mines, just a 

18 half an hour away, and working on my Ph.D.

19 So a lot of the issues put forward in the 

20 document refer to data, and how to generate data, 

21 and how to analyze renewable standards, and how 

22 to make requirements for places where there's 

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1 lack of data. And in my opinion there's no 

2 excuse for lack of data. There's many graduate 

3 students and researchers that would appreciate 

4 the opportunity for funding for research looking 

5 at these issues.

6 My current project is looking at leakage 

7 associated with natural gas production and 

8 distribution. I'm specifically looking 

9 estimating quantifying estimates to the 

10 atmosphere, but I want to say that I'm not being 

11 funded by the federal government to do this 

12 research. They don't have funding that was 

13 available to me. This is a major letdown of the 

14 government to support young people trying to 

15 solve the problem.

16 I'm only 28. I have 50 years, hopefully, 

17 left to live. And I want to have a better 

18 environment. I'm from Boulder, and last year I 

19 personally witnessed the flooding that happened, 

20 and there's a feeling of helplessness as the 

21 water comes into your basement, places where I've 

22 been -- grew up as a child; but we're no longer 

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1 helpless when it comes to climate change.

2 By putting money into research and 

3 development through national laboratories at 

4 national renewable energy lab's previous employer 

5 and through graduate student funding and through 

6 further research funding we can address many of 

7 the specific issues in this regulation that are 

8 brought forth.

9 One of them that's mentioned multiple 

10 times is the comparison between a mass source 

11 analysis versus a rate analysis and what period 

12 of time over which to do these analyses, and also 

13 looking at using multi state rules versus local 

14 regulations. And the issue is we don't really 

15 know. I'm looking at, you know, point sources

16 versus long-term slow leakage rates and looking 

17 at the impacts of that on the atmosphere, but we 

18 don't know.

19 And so when you don't know, you should 

20 take, personally, more -- more money and more 

21 research into answering those questions. And 

22 they are answerable questions.

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1 So, I haven't had a chance to read 

2 through all of the document, but I significantly 

3 support greater funding by the EPA for research 

4 as part of this plan and that every coal plant 

5 profit -- some of that money should go to 

6 understanding our impact on the environment by 

7 supporting young people and their endeavors to 

8 study and investigate the challenges of today.

9 Thank you very much.

10 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much.

11 Mr. Wilson and Mr. McMann -- McCahan? 

12 And on deck Cindy Liverance and Katharine 

13 McCormick, if you'd like to take seats behind the 

14 speaker's table.

15 And just a reminder, spell your name, and 

16 also don't get too close to the mike.

17 MR. WILSON: Certainly.

18 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

19 MR. WILSON: First and last?

20 MS. NOONAN: Yes, please.

21 MR. WILSON: My name is Justin Wilson, 

22 J-U-S-T-I-N, W-I-L-S-O-N.

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1 I represent an organization, the Western 

2 Clean Energy Campaign. We are an organization --

3 former utility analysts and experts, non-profit 

4 conservation organizations.

5 I want to thank EPA for holding this 

6 listening session. I want to thank EPA for your 

7 unprecedented efforts in reaching out to the 

8 public to talk about these very important carbon 

9 pollution standards. Thank you very much. 

10 Thank you for coming to Denver. We are 

11 very proud of the work that we have done in 

12 Colorado in what we feel like is leading the way 

13 to reduce carbon pollution proactively and cost 

14 effectively.

15 Last fall during EPA's listening session 

16 I suggested that EPA should find -- find a way to 

17 propose aggressive yet achievable standards. And 

18 I believe EPA has done just that. You have found 

19 the correct balance, and, therefore, from my 

20 organization's standpoint, the Western Clean 

21 Energy Campaign, you have our full support with 

22 these -- with the Clean Power Plan.

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1 States such as Colorado who have taken 

2 proactive steps that are cost effective and 

3 forward thinking have positioned ourselves well 

4 -- well not just to comply but to thrive under 

5 the Clean Power Plan.

6 Recent analysis shows that just since 

7 2012 if Colorado continues on its policy path and 

8 continues to buy cost effective resources, 

9 renewable resources, we will have only about a 7 

10 percent reduction that's needed. We are well on 

11 our way, and these standards are achievable for 

12 us.

13 We certainly encourage other states to be 

14 aggressive and start planning now. With the 

15 proper planning, with good dialog across the 

16 states, again, these standards are achievable.

17 In addition to the standards being 

18 aggressive, to them being achievable, they are 

19 also creating a strong and vibrant economy here 

20 in Colorado.

21 Wind alone supports over 4,000 jobs here 

22 in Colorado, and it's responsible for $4.3 

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1 billion in economic development.

2 In addition to all of those things, we 

3 have a responsibility to act decisively and

4 quickly. We believe, here in Colorado, that we 

5 have shown a path for that to happen, and we 

6 thank EPA for considering that in their proposal.

7 Again, I'd just like to offer our full 

8 support for the Clean Power Plan. Thank you.

9 MR. MCCAHAN: Good morning. My name is 

10 Graham McCahan, G-R-A-H-A-M, last name M-C-C-A-H11 A-N. I am an attorney with Environmental Defense 

12 Fund, a non-partisan environmental organization 

13 with more than 750,000 members nationwide. For 

14 over 25 years EDF has worked in Colorado and 

15 across the Rocky Mountain west to protect human 

16 health and the environment from harmful air 

17 pollution.

18 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

19 today. The proposed Clean Power Plan is a 

20 crucial step in the President's Climate Action 

21 Plan that will help address the massive 

22 quantities of climate destabilizing pollution 

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1 emitted from U.S. power plants, one of the 

2 largest sources of greenhouse gases in the world.

3 EDF strongly supports the proposed Clean 

4 Power Plan and urges EPA to strengthen the final 

5 standards so that reductions are deeper and 

6 achieved more quickly.

7 The impacts we are seeing now and will 

8 experience in the future have substantial 

9 economic, human health, and social costs. The 

10 Risky Business Report, a recent independent 

11 assessment of the economic risks of climate 

12 change in the United States found that climate 

13 change will generate substantial economic costs 

14 due to damage to and loss of coastal 

15 infrastructure and property, extreme heat impacts 

16 on labor productivity, health and energy systems, 

17 and disruption of our agricultural production.

18 The stakes are high here in Colorado as 

19 hotter temperatures, reduced winter snow pack, 

20 and more frequent droughts are expected to 

21 decrease Colorado River stream flows. These 

22 changes are projected to decrease surface water 

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1 supplies which will impact the allocation of 

2 water to major uses such as agriculture, drinking 

3 water, and ecosystem flows.

4 Our treasured Rocky Mountain ecosystems 

5 are especially susceptible to climate change, and 

6 high elevations have already experienced 

7 temperature increases at rates three times the 

8 global average. Continued warming threatens 

9 critical wildlife habitats and exacerbates the 

10 impacts of invasive species and pests such as the 

11 mountain pine needle.

12 Increased warming, drought, and insect 

13 outbreaks have increased wildfires and impacts to 

14 people and ecosystems throughout the west. 

15 Projected temperature increases will also

16 increase the threats and cost to public health in 

17 our region's cities.

18 Fortunately, the solutions we need to 

19 achieve significant reductions of carbon 

20 pollution from the power sector are readily at 

21 hand. Colorado has a long history of bipartisan

22 solutions that have provided a strong foundation 

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1 for meeting EPA's proposed standards.

2 Under Colorado's bipartisan Clean Air, 

3 Clean Jobs Act, bipartisan renewable energy 

4 standards, and bipartisan energy efficiency 

5 policies, Xcel Energy will cut its carbon 

6 emissions by 31 percent from 2005 levels by 2020 

7 by investing in renewable power and energy 

8 efficiency, and shifting equalization away from 

9 high emitting points.

10 As it has integrated increasing 

11 renewables into its generation mix, Xcel's retail 

12 electricity rates have never gone above the 

13 national average. 

14 The shift to cleaner and safer energy 

15 provides public health and other benefits for our 

16 communities and families, helping to lift the 

17 brown cloud along the front range, cutting 

18 through the summer smog, and protecting the grand 

19 vistas of Colorado's crown jewel, Rocky Mountain 

20 National Park.

21 Strong carbon pollution standards are 

22 consistent with a strong clean energy economy in 

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1 Colorado from Logan County wind turbines 

2 providing revenue and economic security to 

3 farmers to cost savings for Colorado's families 

4 from our leading energy efficiency policies, the 

5 Clean Power Plan will encourage investors, 

6 inventers, and entrepreneurs to find new ways to 

7 cut pollution and give industry flexibility to 

8 find the most efficient path to a clean future.

9 And we know that a transition to clean 

10 energy is not only possible; it's affordable. 

11 Solar and wind resources are cheaper than ever 

12 before. In 2012 rooftop solar panels cost 

13 approximately one percent of what they did 35 

14 years ago. And the cost of solar panels fell by 

15 60 percent from 2011 to 2013.

16 This past May Xcel Energy announced that 

17 it is acquiring renewable energy at prices that 

18 out compete fossil fuels. By contrast, the cost 

19 of inaction are high with a heavy burden of a 

20 changing climate falling on Colorado, there is 

21 strong public support for ensuring that the 

22 single largest source of dangerous carbon 

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1 pollution in our nation is finally subject to 

2 enforceable limits. With 64 percent of Americans 

3 believing the government should limit greenhouse 

4 gas emissions from existing power plants to 

5 address climate change and improve public health, 

6 it is long past time we put national limits on 

7 the amount of climate destabilizing carbon 

8 pollution emitted by power plants.

9 Colorado's experience successfully 

10 reducing carbon pollution through bipartisan 

11 efforts demonstrates that we can transition 

12 quickly and cost effectively to a clean energy 

13 economy. Indeed, these standards will not only 

14 reduce pollution here at home, but they can help 

15 ensure that America will be prosperous in the 

16 global economy, exporting clean energy solutions 

17 to the rest of the world.

18 Furthermore, these standards enjoy broad 

19 public support from health and medical 

20 associations, environmental groups of the 

21 community --

22 (Buzzer sounded.)

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1 -- business later and more. Thank you 

2 again for the opportunity to testify in support 

3 of the clean power plan.

4 MS. NOONAN: Great. Thank you both.

5 On deck we have Roger Singer and Patrick 

6 O'Herron. If you would like to join -- sit 

7 behind the speaker's table, that would be great.

8 And Ms. Liverance and Ms. McCormack?

9 MS. LIVERANCE: Hello, I am Cindy 

10 Liverance -- C-I-N-D-Y, L-I-V-E-R-A-N-C-E. I am 

11 the President, Vice-President of Programs for the 

12 American Lung Association here in Colorado. And 

13 I appreciate having the opportunity to speak with 

14 you today.

15 While I am the Vice-President of 

16 Programs, I am also an asthmatic, and I am the 

17 mother of children with asthma.

18 The ALA issues its Annual State of the 

19 Air Report each spring, and this year's report 

20 showed that warmer temperatures have led to much 

21 worse ozone pollution in cities across the 

22 country in 2010 to 2013, including here in 

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1 Denver.

2 Over 147 million people lived in counties 

3 that suffered too many unhealthy ozone days 

4 during that period. And even though we've made 

5 some strides in cutting air pollution, warmer 

6 temperatures will make it much more likely that 

7 we'll see many years with too many unhealthy 

8 ozone days.

9 For the millions of Americans who live 

10 with chronic lung diseases such as asthma, 

11 chronic bronchitis, emphysema, and lung cancer, 

12 high ozone can make it very difficult for them to 

13 breathe. It causes them to cough, wheeze, and 

14 send them to the emergency room and hospitals.

15 Breathing high ozone can even increase a 

16 risk of dying early. Children growing up where 

17 ozone levels are high may risk having lung 

18 diseases later in life.

19 We need the Clean Power Plan to protect 

20 public health. Power plant pollution makes 

21 people sick, and it cuts life short. The 

22 American Lung Association urges the EPA to set a 

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1 final plan within the year that provides the 

2 strongest limits on carbon pollutions. Anything 

3 less shortchanges our health.

4 As a person who lives with asthma but 

5 also likes to exercise outdoors, I have had to 

6 learn to base my exercise outside activities on 

7 the level of air pollution. I don't like 

8 exercising indoors, but I also don't like going 

9 to the emergency room because I can't breathe due 

10 to the toxic air pollution.

11 But having to make the decision to 

12 exercise indoors or outdoors is a simple choice 

13 compared to some of the choices made by when my 

14 daughter and with other children and asthma can't 

15 breathe while they're out on the playground at 

16 school. There is nothing more terrifying than 

17 having your child say I can't breathe, Mommy. 

18 Help me. You feel helpless.

19 My daughter's grown now. She can make 

20 her own decisions on when to be outside, but I 

21 want the EPA to adopt the strongest standards in 

22 the Clean Power Plan that will cut carbon 

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1 pollution so other Colorado children will have 

2 brighter, healthier futures ahead of them.

3 The American Lung Association here in 

4 Colorado hosts a weeklong summer camp called 

5 Champ Camp specifically for children with asthma. 

6 Champ Camp took place last week, and I asked all 

7 85 of the children if the air they breathe was 

8 important; and they all said yes.

9 One comment from a child was why are 

10 adults keeping our air dirty. I had no answer. 

11 Please help me provide that answer to them.

12 In closing I submit to you a couple 

13 photos of the children that were at the camp and 

14 the volunteers who wanted you to know that clean 

15 air is important to them. Thank you very much.

16 MS. MCCORMICK: Hi. Hi, my name is 

17 Katharine McCormick. That's K-A-T-H-A-R-I-N-E, 

18 M-C-C-O-R-M-I-C-K. I'm a Midwest Advocate with 

19 the Natural Resources Defense Council.

20 There are a lot of numbers floating 

21 around about the cost of this proposal, but to 

22 focus only on hypothetical cost is to do a 

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1 disservice to those states and utilities that 

2 took action early on to change the way they 

3 produce and consumed electricity with real 

4 benefits.

5 My home state of Iowa provides a clear 

6 example of the benefits that clean energy 

7 provides to the state's economy let alone to the 

8 health of its citizens.

9 The Clean Power Plan offers an 

10 opportunity for Iowa to continue to grow its 

11 booming wind sector and implement solar and 

12 energy efficiency to a greater extent. In fact, 

13 this proposal may have been too generous to Iowa. 

14 Iowa's already on the path to meet its emissions 

15 reduction target set by EPA maybe even before the 

16 standard is in effect.

17 This is due in large part to the progress 

18 Iowa has made in recent years with a 22 percent 

19 decrease in the emission rate since 1990, mostly 

20 since 2005.

21 Iowa is actually the nation's leader in 

22 wind generation with 27 percent of the state's 

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1 electricity now coming from wind turbines. 

2 MidAmerican Energy, one of the two investor-owned 

3 utilities in the state, will invest an additional 

4 $1.9 billion by 2016, adding 1,050 megawatts of 

5 wind to the state and increasing wind share in 

6 that utility's energy portfolio to 40 percent.

7 And it's worth noting that Iowa also has 

8 some of the cheapest electricity in the nation. 

9 MidAmerican was able to invest in wind energy 

10 without increasing its customers' bills for more 

11 than a decade. 

12 Iowa's wind energy was a factor in 

13 drawing Facebook, Google, and Microsoft to locate 

14 their data centers in Iowa rather than in our 

15 less energy-diverse neighbors and his condition 

16 of the state speech in January, Governor Branstad 

17 attributed 41 percent Lee County employment gains 

18 partly to turbine manufacturing in the state.

19 Newton, Iowa, lost over 1,000 jobs when 

20 an appliance manufacturer left the city. Skilled 

21 workers were picked up by the wind industry when 

22 it arrived in the city -- when several turbine 

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1 manufacturing companies arrived.

2 Iowa is making progress in other clean 

3 energy industries, too. In May, Governor 

4 Branstad signed the bipartisan bill renewing and 

5 tripling a state solar tax credit with the 

6 support of 134 out of Iowa's 138 state 

7 legislators.

8 In fact, by blanketing the roofs of the 

9 eligible homes, warehouses, schools, banks, and 

10 more the state could meet 20 percent of its 

11 electricity means. Imagine what could be done 

12 here in Colorado.

13 If Iowa includes increased levels of 

14 energy efficiency in its state plan, we could 

15 spur the creation of more than 2,500 jobs and 

16 save homes an average of $6 every month on their 

17 electricity bills.

18 These jobs will be those HVAC workers, 

19 carpenters, and electricians to install 

20 insulation, and efficient windows, and appliances 

21 -- jobs that are still recovering from the 

22 recession.

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1 With even more emphasis on energy 

2 efficiency we can waste less energy, save money, 

3 and create jobs. With the Clean Power Plan we 

4 can achieve a more affordable, more independent, 

5 and more cleaner electric system. Thank you.

6 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Okay. Mr. 

7 Singer and Mr. O'Herron. And on deck we have 

8 Virginia Cotts and Bill Corcoran if you wanted to 

9 sit in the chairs behind the speaker's table --

10 and actually behind them if Ann Morgan and R. J. 

11 Harrington are in the room, they could also sit 

12 in the seats behind.

13 Mr. Singer?

14 MR. SINGER: Good morning. My name is 

15 Roger Singer, R-O-G-E-R.

16 MS. NOONAN: Yours off, yours on.

17 MR. SINGER: How's that?

18 MS. NOONAN: Push. Thank you.

19 MR. SINGER: Okay. Thanks.

20 Hi, good morning again. My name is Roger 

21 Singer, R-O-G-E-R, S-I-N-G-E-R. And I’m here to 

22 testify today both as a resident of Colorado as 

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1 well as a local staff representative of Sierra 

2 Club, the nation's largest and oldest 

3 conservation organization.

4 I would like to first thank all of you 

5 here at EPA today for holding these important 

6 public hearings, not only here in Denver but 

7 across the nation on the critically important 

8 issue for our future. And I would like to see 

9 Sierra Club's strong support for the agency's 

10 Clean Power Plan for existing coal fire to power 

11 plants. After all, these coal plants provide 38 

12 percent of all carbon dioxide pollution 

13 nationally -- the biggest single fixed point 

14 source in the country and yet they have somehow 

15 -- at least up until now -- never been regulated 

16 for carbon pollution. And it is well past time 

17 we addressed this primary source of carbon in a 

18 sensible manner.

19 The Clean Power Plan makes sense for our 

20 health and our well being and for our expanding 

21 clean energy economy, not only here in Colorado 

22 but nationwide.

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1 Now many of us know and applaud the fact 

2 that Colorado's already ahead of the curve and 

3 moving away from coal as a primary energy source 

4 and posturing the increase of renewable energy 

5 statewide from sources like wind and solar.

6 Thanks to the success of recent ballot 

7 measures by the citizens of Colorado and state 

8 level legislation like the Clean Air, Clean Jobs 

9 Act and a 30 percent renewable energy standard, 

10 both of which Sierra Club and our allies strongly 

11 advocated for, we have a head start on meeting 

12 this national carbon standard.

13 But as a Coloradan, I would like to point 

14 out that just meeting minimum level of this newly 

15 proposed standard through past action should not 

16 be our final goal. To continue being a national 

17 leader for renewable energy and really tackling 

18 climate change before it's too late, we 

19 Coloradans should be embracing the standard as a 

20 way to increase our state's efforts to reduce 

21 carbon pollution, to increase our new energy 

22 goals, and to help our neighboring states move 

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1 forward quickly to make this national proposal a 

2 success across the American west where we have 

3 such ample opportunity and resources to set an 

4 example for the nation. 

5 We are seeing a boost of clean energy 

6 based jobs here in Colorado and elsewhere across 

7 the western region thanks to a focus on clean 

8 energy. These are good paying jobs that entice 

9 families to move here, stay here, and spend here.

10 Let's adopt this Clean Power Plan and 

11 keep that forward momentum going and keep 

12 bringing new clean energy jobs to our state and 

13 to our region.

14 In summary, we support the Clean Power 

15 Plan because it will improve our health, our 

16 climate, and our economy. Thank you.

17 MS. NOONAN: Mr. O'Herron?

18 DR. O'HERRON: Thanks. Hello, my name's 

19 Dr. Patrick O'Herron. I'm -- P-A-T-R-I-C-K, 

20 O-apostrophy-H-E-R-R-O-N. I'm a practicing 

21 trauma and acute care surgeon from Oregon, a 

22 Board member of Oregon Physicians for Social 

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1 Responsibility and a Representative of National 

2 PSR. I speak for thousands of health care 

3 providers who are urging for greater action to 

4 reverse climate change.

5 The health risks of climate change are 

6 substantial and include increases in heat-related 

7 illnesses, insect borne diseases like malaria, 

8 Lyme disease, West Nile virus, water borne 

9 illnesses like cholera and Campylobacter, food 

10 and water insecurity, and the effects of conflict 

11 which arise in the resource depleted landscape of 

12 a warmer and much less accommodating planet.

13 PSR and many of our members are 

14 submitting formal written comments, so I'd like 

15 to take this opportunity to speak personally. 

16 Honestly, what am I, as a surgeon, doing here? 

17 Truly the EPA is aware that destabilizing our 

18 climate is an unparalleled public health 

19 disaster. Despite a real progress which has been 

20 made recognizing the threat of climate change and 

21 beginning to address its causes, atmospheric 

22 levels of greenhouse gases continue to rise as we 

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1 charge on a largely business-as-usual fashion. 

2 This is madness.

3 We're taking an unprecedented risk, and 

4 our failure to adequately address climate change 

5 and to be clear about those risks. The public 

6 health threats associated with unchecked climate 

7 change mentioned earlier are bad enough, but 

8 almost certainly a serious under estimate of the 

9 true risks.

10 Remember, our greatest advances in public 

11 health have been infrastructure related --

12 improved sanitation, sewage management, reliable 

13 clean water and food. Climate disruptions --

14 climate disruption threatens this infrastructure 

15 with potentially catastrophic results to human 

16 health.

17 And then combine that with the immediate 

18 benefits of embracing energy efficiency and clean 

19 energy, eliminating the extraction, transport, 

20 and burning of fossil fuels would result in large 

21 reductions in respiratory, cardiovascular, and 

22 cerebral vascular illnesses with the greatest of 

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1 those improvements being seen in volatile 

2 populations which are over represented in high 

3 exposure areas.

4 In my work as a surgeon how well a 

5 patient fares is largely determined early in the 

6 course of their illness by the management 

7 decisions made and the quality of the operation 

8 they undergo. Every time I lift the scalpel and 

9 place it on the skin of another person I feel the 

10 weight of responsibility to perform the operation 

11 well and care for that person the very best I 

12 can.

13 So thank you for putting forward these 

14 Clean Power Plan protections. They're an 

15 important and necessary first step, but are they 

16 the very best we can do? A great deal is at 

17 stake. As you lift your scalpel, do so boldly 

18 and with greater ambition. Thank you very much.

19 MS. NOONAN: Thank you, Pat.

20 Virginia Cotts and Bill Corcoran, please? 

21 And then on deck, Jonathan Downing and Noah Long 

22 could join in the seats behind the speaker's 

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1 table.

2 Ms. Cotts?

3 MS. COTTS: It's Virginia Cotts --

4 V-I-R-G-I-N-I-A, C-O-T-T-S. My standard intro is 

5 I have hyper focused ADD and two degrees in B.S., 

6 so it sounds interesting. I have a father who --

7 MS. NOONAN: Can you --

8 MS. COTTS: -- took the G.I. Bill to a 

9 Ph.D.

10 MS. NOONAN: -- I'm sorry, Ms. Cotts, 

11 could you get a little closer?

12 MS. COTTS: Sure.

13 MS. NOONAN: We just want to make sure we 

14 hear you.

15 MS. COTTS: Okay.

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

17 MS. COTTS: My father took the G.I. Bill 

18 to a Ph.D. when he got home and did R and D work 

19 in building materials and finishing in 

20 environmental work. His mother came to live with 

21 us when I was very young, and she was known as 

22 the walking dictionary; so I learned about 

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1 defining terms and being very careful with words.

2 And then Dad's older brother took that 

3 G.I. Bill to a physicist degree and helps develop 

4 the missiles for the nuclear subs. So I grew up 

5 in an environment very rich in science, and 

6 language, and reasoning. And it was wonderful. 

7 I loved it.

8 And since Dad, and Grandma, and Mom were 

9 Unitarians, there was no fear or guilt associated 

10 with those things. I learned a lot of things 

11 about what science can do and how wonderful it 

12 is, and I became fascinated with the human body 

13 and decided to go into nursing because I wanted 

14 to be able to distill the path of physiology for 

15 my parent patients so that they could understand 

16 why they needed to do things, why they needed to 

17 give up what they really loved to do and do 

18 things that weren't so fun.

19 So, along the way I also married an 

20 environmental engineer or a chemist who became an 

21 environmental engineer and was hired by Hooker 

22 Chemicals out of grad school when the Love Canal 

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1 was in remediation. His job was the 200 streams 

2 and the PPE for the employees, went on to work 

3 for Alaska Department of Environmental 

4 Conservation hazardous waste manager.

5 And we encountered in the '80s the 

6 concept of legislative capture. It wasn't named 

7 then, but it was in full force.

8 So, ultimately he moved on and became a 

9 private contractor. And over the years as a 

10 nurse I became very concerned about different 

11 things in critical care and home care with 

12 patients who had been exposed to environmental 

13 toxins and such. 

14 But what has totally made me upset with 

15 this denial of climate science -- has been the 

16 concept that just because CO2 is part of our 

17 body, it's normal and it's natural. 

18 Reality for me in 16 years as a critical 

19 care nurse is when we have to do arterial blood 

20 gases to find out if that person is going 

21 acidotic, we're trying to get on top of it before 

22 it's too late. The body has two ways to 

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1 basically balance the pH in the body. There's a 

2 metabolic system and the respiratory; but 

3 unfortunately, what happens is with carbon 

4 dioxide you get carbolic acid. And any time the 

5 pH which is normally in the arteries between 7.35 

6 and 7.451 -- a very narrow range -- when it goes 

7 down, the affinity for red blood cells to take on 

8 O2 decreases, and they take on hydrogen ions. 

9 CO2 produces the carbolic acid; the pH goes down 

10 more. It becomes a vicious cycle, and medicine 

11 often cannot reverse it.

12 So when we think that just because CO2 is 

13 part of our body is normal, well, yes, it is but 

14 only in balance. And this is only one of the 

15 many types of chemical reactions that are based 

16 on this very normal pH and very narrow pH range.

17 We are only one of the species on the 

18 earth that -- many, many species that developed 

19 and evolved using a very normal, narrow pH range 

20 for chemical reactions that are essential for 

21 their survival. 

22 We know that much of the excess CO2 we 

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1 produce has been sequestered at deep ocean 

2 levels, that the coral reefs are disintegrating 

3 and ocean species with calcium shells are -- get 

4 threatened. Plankton, the basis of the ocean 

5 food chain is threatened.

6 In the past week a Stanford scientist has 

7 released another study concluding the planet has 

8 entered its sixth mass extinction event, and over 

9 50 percent of our species will die over the not 

10 too distant future.

11 Also in the past week Swedish and 

12 American scientists on the Solaris C-3 study of 

13 the Laptev continental shelf have found vast 

14 plumes of methane released from the Arctic Ocean 

15 hydrates.

16 Carbon emissions are possible to cut. 

17 Methane releases we can mostly only control by 

18 mitigating the increase in temperatures. The 

19 first six months of this year were the highest 

20 recorded temperatures.

21 We cannot continue to ignore, ridicule,

22 or undermine the climate scientists whose 

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1 warnings are well supported and long overdue for 

2 action. This Clean Power Plan is a good step. 

3 (Buzzer sounded.)

4 MS. NOONAN: Mr. Corcoran?

5 MR. CORCORAN: My name is Bill C. It's 

6 spelled B-I-L-L, C-O-R-C-O-R-A-N. I am the 

7 Western Regional Director of the Sierra Club's 

8 Beyond Coal campaign. I appreciate the 

9 opportunity to speak to you today about why the 

10 Sierra Club supports the EPA's recently proposed 

11 Clean Power Plan.

12 The carbon pollution standards for 

13 existing power plants are an historic step for 

14 addressing one of the most daunting challenges of 

15 our generation -- climate disruption. Rising 

16 temperatures and reductions in our snow pack are 

17 ravaging our forests and emptying our reservoirs. 

18 The cost of inaction on climate are too high.

19 There's a dire need to move quickly to 

20 climate solutions like wind, solar, and energy 

21 efficiency to stem the climate prices and protect 

22 our children's future. 

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1 Power plants cause 40 percent of the 

2 carbon pollution in the U.S. By cleaning up and 

3 modernizing power plants we will begin to clean 

4 up our air and curb climate disruption. Reducing 

5 carbon pollution from power plants will not only 

6 save billions of dollars each year, it saves 

7 lives and will reduce illness.

8 You will hear today and through the 

9 comment period from those who want unlimited 

10 carbon pollution throughout the so-called useful 

11 life of coal plants, but we must act now, 

12 together, to protect the useful life of the 

13 planet.

14 The Clean Power Plan will spur 

15 innovation, accelerate the clean energy economy, 

16 and create good American jobs. If we are to grow 

17 our economy and shift into a 21st century 

18 renewable model for energy production, we must 

19 modernize our infrastructure and diversify our 

20 sources.

21 Many states are already leading the 

22 charge to transition to clean energy. The Clean 

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1 Power Plan creates a strong framework that will 

2 enable states to move towards clean energy and 

3 put states in the driver's seat to create a plan 

4 to limit carbon pollution. The U.S. is well on 

5 its way to meeting and exceeding the EPA proposed 

6 goal, and the states can be leaders in making the 

7 transition to a clean, equitable energy future.

8 Sierra Club will work with allies to 

9 strengthen the EPA's carbon standards for 

10 existing power plants. With improvements Sierra 

11 Club recommends, the Clean Power Plan could 

12 reduce power plant emissions by 35 to 40 percent 

13 from 2005 levels by 2020. This is necessary to 

14 meet the President's goal of a 17 percent 

15 reduction in U.S. carbon emissions from 2005 

16 levels by 2020 and promote energy efficiency and 

17 renewable energy without incentivizing natural 

18 gas, nuclear energy, and other climate disrupting 

19 energy sources.

20 In 2012 wind energy and solar 

21 photovoltaics were two of the fastest growing 

22 electric generation technologies in the United 

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1 States. Cumulative installed wind energy 

2 capacity increased by nearly 28 percent, and 

3 cumulative installed solar photovoltaic capacity 

4 grew more than 83 percent from the previous year.

5 EPA rightly includes these resources in 

6 setting the state targets, but the availability 

7 and quantity of renewable energy opportunities 

8 assumed in the plan is too low. With a current 

9 account of retirements of dirty power plants and 

10 a more accurate estimate of growth in the 

11 renewable energy and energy efficiency sectors 

12 the Clean Power Plan could produce deeper 

13 reductions in carbon pollution.

14 The Sierra Club will work to ensure that 

15 the most vulnerable communities are protected by 

16 the standards and consulted throughout the 

17 standard setting and state plan development 

18 process and that public resources are made 

19 available to help workers and affected 

20 communities transition to the clean energy 

21 economy.

22 Poll after poll demonstrates Americans 

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1 support implementation of the Clean Air Act and 

2 letting the EPA do its job to protect public 

3 health and ensure a cleaner future for us all. 

4 We should not let corporate polluters derail 

5 standards that will benefit our children, 

6 families, and all Americans who value clean air 

7 and wild places.

8 Again, we strongly support EPA's efforts 

9 to clean up dangerous carbon pollution, and we 

10 strongly support this rule. Thank you.

11 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both.

12 Ann Morgan and R. J. Harrington? 

13 And by my watch it's about 11:00 o'clock, 

14 and we would just like to remind everyone that 

15 there are many, many people waiting to watch this 

16 hearing and to observe it. And in the spirit of 

17 fairness and cooperation, we ask anyone that can 

18 to please have someone -- give someone else the 

19 opportunity to listen to today's proceedings. 

20 I'm asking folks who have been here 

21 listening to give up their seats so that others 

22 may be able to hear today's testimony. Thank 

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1 you.

2 MS. MORGAN: Thank you. My name is Ann 

3 Morgan, A-N-N, M-O-R-G-A-N. And I’m with the 

4 National Wildlife Federation, and I am here today 

5 to express my strong support for EPA's long 

6 overdue action to combat climate change by 

7 finally setting limits on carbon pollution from 

8 existing power plants.

9 Many Americans probably think that we are 

10 already regulating our nation's largest source of 

11 climate changing emissions, but this is not yet 

12 the case. Despite the original Clean Air Act 

13 being passed in 1963, over 50 years ago, and 

14 signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson, 

15 despite important updates to the law in 1970 that 

16 established national standards for hazardous air 

17 pollutants signed into law by President Richard 

18 Nixon 44 years ago, despite critical updates to 

19 the law in 1990 signed into law by President 

20 George H. W. Bush 24 years ago, carbon pollution 

21 from existing power plants remains unregulated 

22 today.

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1 It has been well documented that carbon 

2 pollution and greenhouse gases endanger human 

3 health as well as the health of our wildlife and 

4 our planet. Now is the time to act.

5 Limits on industrial carbon pollution are 

6 critically needed to protect America's 

7 communities, public health, and wildlife from the 

8 worst impacts of climate change, fuels, extreme 

9 weather, and wildfire events. These events 

10 aren't just predicted by scientific modeling and 

11 research.

12 Coloradans are experiencing these events 

13 firsthand. Extreme wildfire events that are 

14 burning hotter, larger, and faster than ever 

15 before, destroying people's homes, critical 

16 wildlife habitat, recreational opportunities, and 

17 smoking out our summer blue skies.

18 Severe rain and flooding events such as 

19 last September that caused over $2 billion in 

20 damages with communities still struggling to 

21 recover. Coloradans are seeing overall reduced 

22 snow packs, extended droughts, and lower average 

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1 river levels affecting agriculture, city water 

2 supplies, recreation, and wildlife alike. These 

3 aren't predictions. They are our reality today.

4 American's treasure their wildlife 

5 heritage, and we are seeing significant impacts 

6 from carbon and greenhouse gas pollution to our 

7 fish and wildlife resources. Cutthroat trout, a 

8 favorite of Colorado anglers, has been declining 

9 due to climate change and drought. Sage Grouse 

10 and mule deer are suffering from effects of 

11 drought and wildfire. The timing of Big Horn 

12 Sheep reproductive cycles and lambing dates may 

13 no longer coincide with prime forage and food

14 availability.

15 American support actions limit industrial 

16 carbon pollution. A Washington Post, ABC poll 

17 taken just last month found that 70 percent say 

18 the federal government should have limits on 

19 greenhouse emissions from power plants, and 63 

20 percent say they would be willing to see a 

21 utility bill increase of $20 per month to have 

22 them.

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1 A National Wildlife Federation poll of 

2 sportsmen and women last year showed that 69 

3 percent agree that the U.S. should reduce its 

4 carbon pollution, that it's contributing to 

5 global warming and threatening our fish and 

6 wildlife habitat.

7 The people polled come from all across 

8 America, not just those who could take time off 

9 work to show up at a hearing and give testimony. 

10 EPA's Clean Power Plan is a major step in the 

11 right direction, and it will help speed the way 

12 to a future in which we invest more in wildlife 

13 friendly sources of clean energy that are so 

14 abundant in Colorado.

15 Since 2009 the administration has 

16 supported 6,245 renewable energy projects in 

17 Colorado, generating enough energy to power 

18 nearly 130,000 homes. Colorado has great 

19 potential to expand solar and wind power across 

20 the state and we are ranked fourth in the nation 

21 for solar energy potential.

22 The potential positive impacts of capping 

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1 carbon pollution in Colorado could add $622 

2 million to the economy and create over 9,000 

3 jobs.

4 The EPA's limits are a common sense, 

5 state specific approach that acknowledged the 

6 good work that Colorado has already undertaken. 

7 As you finalize the standards I ask that you work

8 to ensure that it achieves the deepest reductions 

9 possible by requiring states to use wildlife 

10 friendly renewable energy and energy efficiency 

11 and not just by simply burning more natural gas.

12 In its rulemaking EPA estimated that 

13 Colorado can generate nearly 15 percent of our 

14 power from renewable sources in 2020, which is 

15 substantially less ambitious than our own 

16 standards of our own energy goal of 30 percent 

17 power from renewables in 2020.

18 The EPA should strengthen the proposed 

19 standard to reflect Colorado's current goal. 

20 Thank you for the opportunity to comment today. 

21 We hope that you will do everything you can to 

22 ensure the Clean Power Plan stays strong 

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1 throughout the entire process. Future 

2 generations and our wildlife heritage are 

3 counting on your leadership. Now is the time to 

4 act. Thank you.

5 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Mr. Harrington?

6 MR. HARRINGTON: Good day, Jenny, Dee, 

7 and Scott, members of the Colorado community and 

8 the American west. My name is R. J. Harrington. 

9 That's R-J, H-A-R-R-I-N-G-T-O-N. I'm the 

10 Executive Director of Clean Energy Action, 

11 husband, father, brother to my siblings and to 

12 all of humanity.

13 The cost of inaction exceed by orders of 

14 magnitude the costs of action with the Clean 

15 Power Plan. Thank you for the opportunity to 

16 submit these comments on behalf of this and every 

17 generation. I speak most especially today on 

18 behalf of our children, my daughter 10 and a 

19 half, and my son who celebrates his 8th birthday 

20 today are members of a generation who will have 

21 to adapt to the results of the last 150 years of 

22 using their atmosphere as a sewer. This practice 

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1 must stop. It must stop so that future costs of 

2 adaptation are kept in check.

3 You've heard reference to many of those 

4 costs described by Counsel of EDF a few minutes 

5 ago. Those of us who understand the preliminary 

6 estimates of those costs understand that they 

7 will already be significant. We cannot morally 

8 pass any additional adaptation costs along to 

9 future generations.

10 In the past our ancestors predominantly 

11 acted on behalf of leaving a better life for 

12 their progeny. Certainly they thought of their 

13 needs in the moment, but the needs of future 

14 generations were also considered in each and 

15 every decision. That practice is largely absent 

16 from society, and it is up to us to remember and 

17 renew that commitment today and tomorrow.

18 Those of us who have remained committed 

19 to the future will act accordingly in the 

20 present. The Clean Power Plan is a good start 

21 and forms a solid foundation upon which to build. 

22 We must support these modest goals now so that we 

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1 can improve upon them in the immediate future.

2 We hear the spin that this plan is 

3 Obama's or the EPA's war on coal. This statement 

4 is a lie. It is a geologic war on coal that is 

5 underway, and this plan realizes and takes steps

6 to deal with diminishing economically recoverable 

7 fossil reserves. I use the word reserves to 

8 differentiate from resources.

9 Resources are all the fossils that are in 

10 the ground. Reserves are those resources that 

11 are economically recoverable. The price we pay 

12 for the fossil reserves has been rising steadily 

13 for years. This trend will not discontinue.

14 One of the ironies of steadily increasing 

15 coal prices is the price at which we sell or --

16 quote -- lease -- unquote -- our fossils to the 

17 lowest bidder. How can we lease a commodity that 

18 is not returned or reused is a mystery.

19 The Department of the Interior through 

20 the BLM is tasked with leasing fossil coal only 

21 if it is in the public interest. Full 

22 consideration must be given to environmental and 

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1 economic implications of those leases. The irony 

2 is particularly poignant this week due to the 

3 fact that tomorrow in Lakewood, Colorado, unless 

4 we succeed in getting Secretary Jewell to stop 

5 the process, the Spruce Stomp lease on the 

6 western slope of Colorado will occur to a Chinese 

7 company for export. It is ironic that one branch 

8 of government is examining mitigating the effects 

9 of carbon while another branch is exacerbating 

10 those costs.

11 We hear the spin that what we do to 

12 mitigate carbon will not matter if China 

13 continues to burn. What we do does matter, and 

14 we should not sell our coal for the cost of a 

15 pack of chewing gum per ton of that coal to the 

16 lowest bidder. America needs to develop safe, 

17 clean, renewable energy technologies for export 

18 instead.

19 We hear the spin that transitioning away 

20 from coal will be too costly. Efficiency and 

21 safe, clean, renewable investments are cost 

22 competitive today and offer stable pricing over 

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1 the 25 or more years of their useful electric --

2 electricity generating capacity.

3 How can that price be stable? Because 

4 once the facilities are constructed, there is 

5 zero fuel cost. Contrast that to a fossil 

6 facility that must be constantly fueled with 

7 constantly rising fossil fuel prices.

8 I also speak to the folks that work and 

9 live in the fossil industry. The opportunity 

10 cost of not becoming retrained in the new economy 

11 of the 21st century is great. Ask the corporate 

12 bosses, some of whom spin off your retirement and 

13 health care benefits into subsidiaries that then 

14 are bankrupted, what they are prepared to do to 

15 train you for the new economy since they are no 

16 longer investing in the Powder River basin 

17 because their margins are low or negative, what 

18 is their long-term commitment to you and your 

19 families?

20 (Buzzer sounded.)

21 MR. HARRINGTON: Please strengthen 

22 standards under the Clean Power Plan. The costs 

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1 of inaction exceed the cost of action. Thank 

2 you.

3 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both.

4 Mr. Jonathan Downing and Mr. Noah Long?

5 MR. DOWNING: Good morning.

6 MS. NOONAN: Good morning.

7 MR. DOWNING: I am Jonathan Downing with 

8 the Wyoming Mining Association. J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N, 

9 D-O-W-N-I-N-G.

10 The Wyoming Mining --

11 UNIDENTIFED SPEAKER: Would you start 

12 over?

13 MR. DOWNING: You want a respell?

14 UNIDENTIFIED: Yeah.

15 MR. DOWNING: J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N, 

16 D-O-W-N-I-N-G. W-Y-O-M-I-N-G.

17 All righty. The Wyoming Mining 

18 Association is a statewide trade organization 

19 that represents and advocates for 39 mining 

20 company members producing bentonite, coal, Trona, 

21 and uranium as well as one company developing 

22 rare earth minerals. WMA also represents 129 

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1 associate member companies, two railroads, and 

2 180 individual company's members.

3 Wyoming leads the nation in coal 

4 production, mining nearly 400 million tons of 

5 coal annually. In addition, we are the single 

6 largest net producer of energy for the region and 

7 the nation.

8 While Texas produces slightly more energy 

9 than Wyoming, it consumes more than its 

10 production. Wyoming exports almost 10 trillion 

11 BTUs per year to the rest of the nation for use 

12 in power plants, automobiles, homes, and 

13 factories. Most of that energy is from coal.

14 Recently announced EPA emission standards 

15 on existing stationery electric utility 

16 generating units requires states to submit plans 

17 to reduce their power sector CO2 emissions by 26 

18 to 27 percent by 2020 and 30 to 32 percent by 

19 2030 as compared to '05 levels.

20 Whether or not EPA has the authority to 

21 regulate CO2 emissions from existing coal fueled 

22 electric generators is yet to be determined. In 

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1 effect, by taking this action with the Clean 

2 Power Plan it creates a de facto ban on older 

3 coal fired power plants while not allowing for 

4 new technologies to become on line to reduce 

5 emissions. It is essentially eliminating coal as 

6 a future source of electricity for our nation.

7 And considering that coal currently 

8 accounts for 20 percent of the power in America's 

9 electricity generation, the question of what will 

10 make up the megawatt difference is one that as 

11 existing power plants are retired needs to be 

12 answered, but aside from this problematic 

13 scenario, there will be real and tangible effects 

14 for every citizen. 

15 The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates 

16 that the cost of these new regulations will be 

17 $51 billion in annual economic losses and job 

18 losses of 224,000 for Americans in the industry 

19 as well as -- as a result of these new 

20 regulations. And we find that not acceptable.

21 Coal is America's most abundant, 

22 reliable, and affordable energy resource, yet the 

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1 choice has been made deliberately to put it off 

2 limits, playing favorites for costly, heavily 

3 subsidized renewables and unreliable resources to 

4 blindly advance this current president's 

5 environmental program.

6 Utilities will face issues with over 

7 reliance on natural gas and the innate inability 

8 and undependability of renewables to meet power 

9 generation needs while passing along that cost 

10 and that expense to the customer.

11 Again, here lies the real crux of the 

12 matter. The elimination of coal as a source of 

13 electricity generation through impressive 

14 regulation hurts real people in the form of job 

15 losses, higher utility bills, and a lower 

16 standard of living for little to no benefit to 

17 public health, reduction in global emissions, or 

18 lowering of perceived temperature hikes.

19 The facts speak for themselves but are 

20 often lost in the gamesmanship that a company's 

21 implementation of political agendas. According 

22 to the EPA's own data, coal based power 

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1 generation in the U.S. has increased 170 percent 

2 since 1970 while emissions of pollutants 

3 originally regulated under the Clean Air Act have 

4 decreased over 85 percent.

5 This remarkable success has been achieved 

6 by common sense regulation and timely advances in 

7 technology, and we would ask that there be 

8 opportunity for additional advances in technology 

9 as we continue to improve our reductions in 

10 emissions.

11 We appreciate the opportunity to be here 

12 to comment today, and we respectfully urge the 

13 Agency to fully consider the real impact of its 

14 actions on the American consumer and taxpayer, 

15 jobs, and affordable energy, and in developing 

16 CO2 emission rules for the existing coal fueled 

17 coal fired fleet. We also urge EPA to consider 

18 holding additional listening sessions in the 

19 communities that are affected in coal-producing 

20 states and rural America and to hear from those 

21 that are most directly affected by these actions. 

22 Thank you.

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1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. You 

2 could turn your mike off.

3 MR. LONG: Good morning. My name is Noah 

4 Long. That's spelled N-O-A-H, L-O-N-G. I'm the 

5 Legal Director of the Western Energy Project of 

6 the Natural Resources Defense Council. Thank you 

7 very much for taking my comments this morning on 

8 this important issue.

9 Power plants are responsible for emitting 

10 40 percent of the industrial carbon pollution 

11 we're exposed to here in the United States. 

12 While we limit how much arsenic, lead, and 

13 mercury power plants are allowed to dump into the 

14 air, there is currently no limit set for how much 

15 carbon pollution should be allowed. That's why 

16 EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan is so important.

17 It sets the first ever limits on carbon 

18 pollution from power plants which is an essential 

19 step towards addressing the costly impacts of 

20 climate change.

21 Abiding by these national standards will 

22 not only give states the flexibility but can spur 

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1 innovation while protecting the health and 

2 environment of our communities as we clean up our 

3 air. It will also begin to fulfill the 

4 obligation we have to future generations to be 

5 responsible stewards of this earthly inheritance 

6 of a livable planet.

7 As a westerner, I, myself, have seen the 

8 effects of climate change. Since my grandparents 

9 moved to Colorado in the first half of the last 

10 century, temperatures have climbed, droughts and 

11 floods have increased in frequency. Snow pack 

12 and glaciers have diminished.

13 These changes are threatening the 

14 economies and the ways of life around the west, 

15 creating challenges for farms and ranches, 

16 wildlife and outdoor enthusiasts. 

17 So I find myself wondering will my son be 

18 able to enjoy fishing in the same rivers and 

19 streams, swimming in the same alpine lakes and 

20 skiing in the same Aspen glades that I do now? I 

21 love those places so much, but I don't know. 

22 Because of climate change the answer is that I 

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1 don't know.

2 But western states are also demonstrating 

3 the leadership and moving forward with clean 

4 energy to tackle climate change. Western states 

5 are moving away from dirty fossil fuels and 

6 embracing cleaner and more cost effective energy 

7 solutions like renewable energy and energy 

8 efficiency.

9 Legislators and regulators in every 

10 western state from New Mexico to Washington have 

11 decided to shutter older dirtier coal plants in 

12 favor of less polluting resources. Many power 

13 plants across the west are already participating 

14 in a carbon market because of California's carbon 

15 standard.

16 Colorado has among the highest renewable 

17 energy standard in the country and is reliably 

18 and affordably integrating more and more 

19 renewable energy every day.

20 In Wyoming plans are under way for the 

21 largest wind energy facility in the world. And 

22 California has the largest solar thermal facility 

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1 in the world. Solar power is being used to power 

2 Olympic facilities in Salt Lake and Fort Carson, 

3 south of Colorado Springs. With an average cost 

4 of two and a half cents per kilowatt hour western 

5 regulators and utilities are used to seeing 

6 energy efficiency as the fastest, cheapest, and 

7 cleanest energy resource.

8 Now those same regulators are seeing 

9 improving utility purchases of wind and solar 

10 power as the cheapest power generation 

11 alternative for their customers. NREC supports 

12 the building blocks put forward by the U.S. EPA 

13 and agrees with providing states the necessary 

14 flexibility to find their own ways to reduce 

15 emissions.

16 We urge you to move forward with this 

17 plan and to move swiftly in proposing a roadmap 

18 for cutting carbon pollution at amounts 

19 comparable to the surrounding states from power 

20 plants located on tribal lands.

21 We know states are already developing 

22 renewable energy and investing in energy 

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1 efficiency at levels higher than EPA assumes is 

2 possible, and we heartily support going beyond 

3 the proposed requirements as we know the benefits 

4 will increase as we do so. We know that 

5 utilities across the country are planning on 

6 shuttering old and inefficient coal plants. 

7 These changes in the power sector are creating 

8 jobs, improving public health, and taking the 

9 first step towards safeguarding our communities 

10 from the consequences of climate change.

11 States are leading the way on clean 

12 energy development, and a strong Clean Power Plan 

13 will empower them to take the next steps to do 

14 so. Thank you so much.

15 MS. NOONAN: Thank you, Noah.

16 Thad Kurowski and Howard Geller, next up. 

17 And then on deck, Edy Chang, Bruce Ray, if you'd 

18 like to take seats behind the speaker's table and 

19 then behind them, Mark Fix and Marsha Miller, 

20 also take seats behind the speaker's table.

21 Yours on?

22 MR. KUROWSKI: Thank you. I'm Thad 

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1 Kurowski. I'm the Director of Policy in 

2 Electricity Markets for SolarCity. We are the 

3 nation's largest solar power provider.

4 You spell my name T-H-A-D, 

5 K-U-R-O-W-S-K-I.

6 And I'm here today to talk for the EPA's

7 proposed Clean Power Plan and the future of 

8 rooftop solar. For decades fossil fuel power 

9 plants, the largest sources of carbon pollution, 

10 have been allowed to dump unlimited amounts of 

11 carbon into our air, threatening American 

12 communities, and costing us billions of dollars 

13 each year by worsening climate disruption and 

14 threatening the health of our families and 

15 communities.

16 In Colorado we've already felt the 

17 impacts of climate disruption in recent years 

18 through severe drought and devastating forest 

19 fires. In 2011 and 2012 alone those extreme 

20 weather events cost the State of Colorado over 

21 $600 million in federal disaster aid and the 

22 health of many of our loved ones.

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1 Air pollution from power plants also 

2 threatens our health by causing life-threatening 

3 illnesses, like childhood asthma, that costs us 

4 billions of dollars each year. Every year air 

5 pollution from the Colorado coal-fired power 

6 plants contributes to 53 deaths, 81 heart 

7 attacks, and over a thousand asthma attacks as 

8 well as costing us $400,000 in health costs. We 

9 all pay a price for air pollution. These costs 

10 to our health and wallets will only grow unless 

11 we act.

12 According to the National Climate 

13 Assessment released earlier this year, Colorado 

14 and the southwest can expect even more heat 

15 waves, more extreme and sustained droughts, and 

16 poorer air and water quality in decades ahead 

17 which threatens the health and security of 

18 Colorado families and businesses as well as those 

19 throughout the United States.

20 Now, as part of the President's Climate 

21 Action Plan, the U.S. Environmental Protection 

22 Agency has proposed the Clean Power Plan to curb 

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1 dangerous carbon pollution from existing power 

2 plants for the first time. This is a huge moment 

3 of opportunity to revamp our aging power grid by 

4 investing in clean energy and boosting Colorado's 

5 already-growing clean energy economy.

6 In 2004 the people of Colorado passed the 

7 nation's first voter-determined renewable energy 

8 standard, requiring utilities to add clean energy 

9 to their power generation resources. Since then 

10 thousands of Coloradans have made the choice to 

11 install solar on their rooftops, generating their 

12 own power from the sun and driving rooftop solar 

13 prices down faster than anyone anticipated.

14 Now almost 250 solar companies employ 

15 3,600 Coloradans throughout the state. SolarCity 

16 provides 350 of those jobs and employs over 6,000 

17 nationwide who have installed almost 650 

18 megawatts of distributed solar.

19 In 2012 private investment for installing 

20 solar in Colorado homes and businesses totaled 

21 $187 million. We've built a vibrant industry 

22 here alongside our utility companies.

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1 Now, in various states, including right 

2 here in Colorado, large utilities are fighting 

3 rooftop solar, trying to put the people that I 

4 work with out of their jobs and attempting to 

5 impose limitations on the future economic and 

6 health benefits that rooftop solar provides.

7 Supporting state and federal policies 

8 like the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan that 

9 gives each state targets to help cut overall 

10 carbon pollution from power plants by 30 percent 

11 from 2005 levels by the year 2030 is a positive 

12 step toward supporting clean energy solutions 

13 like rooftop solar.

14 States can create their own plan for 

15 meeting these targets in a number of ways, 

16 including increasing energy efficiency and 

17 renewable energy. By cleaning up and modernizing 

18 power plants as well as continuing to grow the 

19 rooftop solar market here and across the country, 

20 we will take significant steps to reduce 

21 pollution-related illness, keep our -- help keep 

22 our children healthier, and curb the worst 

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1 effects of planet disruption and grow the 

2 economy.

3 The plan will spur innovation, accelerate 

4 the clean energy economy, and create good 

5 American jobs like those we've seen here created 

6 in Colorado.

7 SolarCity supports the EPA's Clean Power 

8 Plan and urges the EPA for added support for 

9 distributed solar generation in order to further 

10 economic development and press large utilities to 

11 reduce carbon pollution beyond compliance levels 

12 provided -- excuse me -- beyond compliance levels 

13 provided in the -- and under consideration. 

14 Thank you.

15 MR. GELLER: Good morning. I am Howard 

16 Geller, spelled G-E-L-L-E-R. I'm the Executive 

17 Director of the Southwest Energy Efficiency 

18 Project. We go by the acronym of SWEEP. SWEEP 

19 is a non-profit organization dedicated to 

20 advancing more efficient energy use in Arizona, 

21 Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, and Wyoming.

22 SWEEP praises the EPA for the landmark 

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1 Clean Power Plan as well as for including energy 

2 efficiency as a compliance strategy.

3 The four block approach to setting the 

4 emissions reduction goals as well as the approach 

5 of adding energy savings credits to the 

6 denominator of the CO2 emissions rate goals is a 

7 very sound approach. Including energy efficiency 

8 prominently as the EPA has done will enable 

9 states to meet the emissions reduction goals at 

10 least cost and with net economic benefits for 

11 households and businesses.

12 Energy efficiency efforts are ramping up 

13 here in the southwest as well as throughout the 

14 nation. In Colorado, for example, our main 

15 electric utility, Xcel Energy, has expanded its 

16 energy efficiency programs over the past five 

17 years, cutting CO2 emissions from its power 

18 plants and saving its customers $900 million net 

19 as a result of the efficiency programs 

20 implemented over the past five years alone.

21 There are tremendous opportunities for 

22 further cost effective energy savings even in 

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1 states that have been leaders in energy 

2 efficiency for the past 10 to 20 years.

3 As for the details of the proposed rule, 

4 three major electric utilities in our region, 

5 Arizona Public Service Company, the Salt River 

6 Project, and Tucson Electric Power are already 

7 exceeding the energy efficiency target in 

8 Building Block 4, meaning they are achieving more 

9 than 1.5 percent energy savings per year from 

10 their energy efficiency programs as of 2012 and 

11 2013. Other utilities in the region are in the 

12 range of this target as well.

13 Assuming that all states can move up to 

14 1.5 percent savings per year from utility 

15 programs is a very reasonable assumption.

16 In addition, SWEEP recommends increasing 

17 the Building Block 4 energy efficiency target 

18 from one and a half percent per year to two 

19 percent per year which the EPA has suggested as a 

20 possibility to recognize the contribution that 

21 building codes, state appliance standards, tax 

22 incentives, and other non-utility programs can 

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1 make to every state's CO2 emissions reduction 

2 efforts. These non-utility programs can easily 

3 provide a half percent savings per year in 

4 addition to the one and a half percent savings 

5 per year from utility programs.

6 And the other comment I'd like to make 

7 here is that we recommend shifting to counting 

8 energy savings based on the gross savings from 

9 energy efficiency policies and programs rather 

10 than the net savings approach that EPA has used 

11 in the proposed rule. This will simplify 

12 evaluation and verification requirements for both 

13 utility and non-utility programs. It also helps 

14 to justify moving up to the two percent per year 

15 savings target.

16 And in addition, actual emissions 

17 reductions in the real world are based on gross 

18 savings, not an estimate of net savings.

19 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

20 here today, and we will be submitting more 

21 detailed comments later in the year.

22 MS. NOONAN: I actually have a question 

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1 for each of you. Mr. Geller, actually, that was 

2 one of my questions was if you could submit more 

3 information about the gross versus net technical 

4 information, that will be very helpful to us.

5 MR. GELLER: Will do.

6 MS. NOONAN: And also, Mr. Kurowski, 

7 could you -- are many of the rooftop installers

8 that you are associated with small businesses? 

9 And if you could say a little bit about the 

10 number of employees they might have?

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You'll need to 

12 turn your mike off.

13 MR. KUROWSKI: So Solar City -- well, 

14 Solar City is an independent company that hires 

15 its own installers. Currently, again, we have 

16 over 6,000 nationwide employees. And we are 

17 rapidly expanding as quickly as we possibly can 

18 in states where there are favorable policies such 

19 as the ones that we're discussing and considering 

20 today.

21 As far as the solar industry within 

22 Colorado itself, the total number of installers 

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1 and folks who are directly and indirectly 

2 associated with those -- those individual 

3 organizations, I am not sure about. I don't --

4 based on the number of megawatts that they 

5 install annually here per year, I would speculate 

6 that that's somewhere in the about 1,500 to 2,000 

7 range.

8 MS. NOONAN: If you have any information 

9 about that, that would be also helpful to us.

10 MR. KUROWSKI: I would love to follow up 

11 with you on that.

12 MS. NOONAN: All right. Thank you so 

13 much.

14 And next up we have Edy Chang and Bruce 

15 Ray.

16 MS. CHANG: Hello, my name is Edy Chang, 

17 and I'm the Deputy Executive Officer of the 

18 California Air Resources Board, or ARB. We are 

19 the state agency charged with providing healthful 

20 air and reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

21 I'm pleased to be here today to offer ARB 

22 support for the Clean Power Plan. Western 

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1 states, including California, have a long history 

2 as successfully addressing tough air pollution 

3 problems. And we're confident that through 

4 collaboration with our neighbors and with U.S. 

5 EPA we will prevail in reducing greenhouse gas 

6 emissions to combat the effects of climate 

7 change.

8 California has made much progress in 

9 reducing greenhouse gas emissions through both 

10 new AB-32 programs and previously existing 

11 programs.

12 We have been implementing energy 

13 efficiency requirements, including appliance and 

14 building efficiency standards for years; and we 

15 are well on our way to meeting a 33 percent 

16 renewable energy portfolio by 2020.

17 Our cap and trade program will reduce 

18 emissions across a broad swath of energy 

19 including power plants.

20 Our scoping plan, which is our roadmap to 

21 reducing carbon emissions was recently updated to 

22 focus on post 2020 actions and recognizes that 

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1 achieving our climate goals will also move us 

2 towards meeting the health phased ozone and PM 

3 standards and reduce the risk from your toxics.

4 California has done much to reduce 

5 greenhouse gas emissions over the last few 

6 decades. We are pleased that EPA's proposal 

7 provides flexibility as to how states show 

8 compliance and will work with EPA to ensure our 

9 existing efforts are properly credited.

10 Looking beyond our state lines, we 

11 believe California also has an important role to 

12 play in supporting a low carbon grid for the 

13 western United States since we import a 

14 significant fraction of our electricity from our 

15 neighbors in the west.

16 California's existing energy efficiency 

17 and renewable energy programs can help reduce 

18 demand on higher carbon facilities in the western 

19 region grid, and California can be an important 

20 market for renewable energy from elsewhere in the 

21 region.

22 Further, we strongly believe that these 

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1 opportunities are not limited to California 

2 because the western grid is marked by very 

3 substantial import and export relationships 

4 between states. There may be opportunity for our 

5 states to identify low cost options to 

6 collectively meet our federal carbon targets if 

7 we explore these options together.

8 We are looking carefully at EPA's 

9 accounting rules for renewable energy and energy 

10 efficiency. Under the current proposal states 

11 generally would not be able to take credit for 

12 the effects of their energy efficiency programs 

13 in other states or for renewable energy they sell 

14 beyond their borders.

15 Adjusting the proposal to provide 

16 incentives for developing cross state energy 

17 efficiency and renewable energy will encourage 

18 collaborative regional plans that may help to 

19 unlock significant opportunities for additional 

20 CO2 emission reductions not only in the west but 

21 for the whole country.

22 California, as well as many other states, 

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1 asked EPA to take a holistic look at CO2 

2 emissions from the power sector. EPA responded 

3 to this request by acknowledging that the best 

4 system of emission reductions extends beyond the 

5 facility's fence line. We have more and better 

6 options working together than working alone.

7 We will need EPA support as we move 

8 forward. And that will be working with multiple 

9 EPA regions to design joint compliance options 

10 and provide the data needed to support them. It 

11 will also mean working with tribal nations to 

12 make sure that plants on tribal lands and the 

13 policy direction each nation wishes to take are 

14 part of our collective thinking. It will mean 

15 working together to develop workable models for 

16 regional compliance plans which recognize the 

17 diversity of our state's energy mixes, political 

18 choices, and energy policy goals by giving us 

19 room to agree to joint commitments where we need 

20 them and to go our own way where that is 

21 appropriate.

22 We understand that with the amount of 

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1 flexibility provided for in the proposal and the 

2 differences in each state's energy mix and 

3 regulatory structure, enforceability of 

4 compliance plan elements will be a difficult but 

5 critical issue to address. California is poised 

6 at the ready to contribute to these 

7 enforceability discussions.

8 In short, we look forward to exploring 

9 regional options which can be tailored to focus 

10 on the areas where shared accounting and shared 

11 commitments help us all to comply cost 

12 effectively and which can deliver major carbon 

13 reductions in a more robust and efficient power 

14 system.

15 Already, California officials have 

16 enjoyed meeting with many of our state and 

17 federal counterparts to explore our options, and 

18 we look forward to continuing this regional 

19 discussion as we move forward. Thank you.

20 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Mr. Ray?

21 MR. RAY: Good morning. My name is Bruce 

22 Ray, and I serve as Director of Governmental and 

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1 Regulatory Affairs at Johns Manville. I also 

2 have the privilege of serving on the SWEEP Board 

3 of Directors with Howard Geller. You've just 

4 heard from him. And we support their work to 

5 further implement energy efficiency in the 

6 southwest.

7 And, of course, we also have one of our 

8 big plants located in northern California and 

9 participate in the AB-32 Cap and Trade program, 

10 so -- Johns Manville is a Berkshire Hathaway 

11 company. We manufacture three primary products 

12 -- insulation, including fiberglass and foam, 

13 commercial roofing systems, including roofing 

14 insulation and glass fiber based engineering 

15 products -- engineered products for such uses as 

16 composites and energy. 

17 Our world headquarters is in Denver just 

18 a few blocks from here. We have 7,000 employees 

19 at 45 manufacturing locations mostly in North 

20 America and Europe and fully 70 percent of our 

21 products promote end use energy efficiency 

22 whether it's in buildings, transportation, high 

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1 temperature uses such as power plants, oil 

2 refineries, as well as an original equipment 

3 manufacturing other applications. And you can 

4 find more information about Johns Manville and 

5 more data in our 2013 Sustainability Report at 

6 JM.com.

7 Our building insulation products, of 

8 course, are formaldehyde-free and they're made 

9 with a bio based binder. And, in fact, this 

10 building has Johns Manville insulation in it. I 

11 made sure that my former colleagues at EPA would 

12 have [inaudible] insulation.

13 So we certainly strongly agree with the 

14 EPA that induced energy efficiency enhancements 

15 can substantially reduce electricity usage as 

16 well as the emissions generated to produce that 

17 electricity. EPA has proposed that states can 

18 increase their demand site management programs to 

19 achieve an annual savings of 1.5 percent.

20 You've heard from Howard Geller some 

21 states -- there are already some states that have 

22 even gone past there. But regardless of the 

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1 amount of greenhouse gas emissions to be reduced 

2 by the 111(d) regulations, energy efficiency can 

3 be way to achieve immediate and cost effective 

4 emission reductions in the utility sector. We 

5 know that 40 percent of all energy is used in 

6 heating and cooling homes, so there are many 

7 opportunities out there for energy savings.

8 Energy efficiency also supports economic 

9 growth. A recent study by the American Council 

10 for an Energy Efficient Economy noted all the 

11 beneficial impacts of widely employing end-use 

12 energy efficiency enhancements including 600,000 

13 additional jobs in 2030 and 17 billion in 

14 additional GDP by 2030.

15 It's also -- to understand that energy 

16 efficiency tends to be more labor intensive 

17 rather than traditional generation -- renewable 

18 generation which tends to be more capital 

19 intensive so that to the extent that you deploy 

20 energy efficiency solutions, you tend to create 

21 more jobs.

22 There's also, of course, co benefits, as 

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1 you know, from implementing energy efficiency and 

2 Johns Manville is working with others in our 

3 industry to update a 2003 Harvard study that 

4 quantified the public health improvements of 

5 retrofitting all the under insulated homes in 

6 America to current model energy codes, including 

7 Title 24 in California.

8 But while we agree with the EPA that 

9 energy efficiency is a method to achieve emission 

10 reductions, we do have several changes that we 

11 would like EPA to make to the final regulation. 

12 The first is that I think the change that -- the 

13 proposal should be changed to encourage early 

14 emission reductions through the early deployment 

15 of energy efficiency enhancements. The proposal 

16 as written really focuses on the compliance 

17 period from 2020 to 2030, and we feel it does not 

18 adequately credit early action from early energy 

19 efficiency projects.

20 I think this may be an oversight because 

21 we heard Administrator McCarthy talk about early 

22 action and was encouraging that.

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1 In addition, early action is more cost 

2 effective and can reduce potential adverse 

3 impacts the regulation may have on grid 

4 reliability.

5 Second, EPA should recognize that some 

6 energy efficiency enhancements can last longer 

7 than 10 years. Passive improvements for building 

8 envelopes in homes and buildings certainly can 

9 last for the life of the building. 

10 Third, EPA should include advanced energy 

11 codes in the energy efficiency building block as 

12 an important way to achieve energy savings. We 

13 know especially out in California under Title 24 

14 that it's a very important part of the energy 

15 efficiency program and is mentioned frequently in 

16 the AD-32 Scoping Report.

17 And fourth, I think it would be 

18 appropriate, if possible, to specifically refer 

19 to insulation as a method to achieve energy 

20 efficiency, especially in buildings because 

21 that's where some of the hugest opportunities 

22 are. Thank you.

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1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much.

2 And I have a quick question. Mr. Ray, 

3 you had referenced a report about 600 jobs in 

4 2020 or 2030. If you have a copy of that report, 

5 please submit it for the record if at all 

6 possible. And then, also, whenever you update 

7 the 2003 Harvard study if you wanted to submit 

8 that?

9 MR. RAY: We will absolutely do both. 

10 And through our trade association name we will be 

11 submitting detailed written comments, but I can 

12 also actually get you -- if I can get your 

13 e-mail, I'll just e-mail you the link to the AC 

14 Triple U [phonetic] Report. It was just recently 

15 announced.

16 And then the Harvard Study update, 

17 certainly we will -- we will be finishing -- we 

18 will get preliminary results from that -- the 

19 update -- in time to include with our detailed 

20 comments in October.

21 MS. NOONAN: Great. October 16th. All 

22 right. Thank you both very much.

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1 And next up we have Mark Fix and Marsha 

2 Miller. And on deck Travis Madison and Ron Lehr, 

3 if you'd like to join us in those seats behind 

4 the speakers?

5 Mr. Fix, would you like to start?

6 MR. FIX: Sure. I'm Mark Fix, M-A-R-K, 

7 F-I-X. I'm a rancher and irrigator about 20 

8 miles southwest of Miles City on the Tongue 

9 River. I'm Past Chair of the Northern Plains 

10 Resource Council and a member of the Western 

11 Organization of Resource Councils.

12 Northern Plains is a grass root 

13 organization that was founded when coal strip 

14 mining came to Montana. Northern Plains was 

15 instrumental in pushing forward protections for 

16 land owners such as land owner consent and 

17 reclamation of strip mined areas.

18 I'm here to thank the Environmental 

19 Protection Agency for promoting the rule that 

20 will help control carbon emissions that are 

21 affecting our lives and our planet. We, in 

22 agriculture, are the first to be affected by 

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1 climate change. In Montana in 2012 there were 

2 1.1 million acres -- were burned by the second 

3 largest wildfire in our state's history.

4 Luckily, I escaped that fire. The day 

5 the fire spread it was around 106 degrees, and 

6 the wind increased to around 60 miles an hour. 

7 Smoke was coming my direction, and I thought I 

8 might see fire at any time; but luckily the winds 

9 were not headed my way. Many of my friends and 

10 neighbors were not so fortunate and are still 

11 dealing with the incredible expense and work load 

12 of replacing fences, livestock, and even their 

13 homes.

14 I know how hard this can be. I had a 

15 fire on my ranch four or five years earlier that 

16 burned about three sections of my property.

17 The next subject I will mention I feel 

18 will fit into the global wording category, last 

19 year we had an EF-1 tornado hit my ranch. The 

20 winds were in excess of 95 miles an hour and took 

21 off half of my barn roof, about a quarter of my 

22 house roof, and tipped over a new circle pivot 

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1 that I had only used for about two weeks. The 

2 storm was about a half a mile wide and also took 

3 down hundreds of cottonwood trees which I am 

4 still struggling to clean up.

5 Full weather and snow hit early last 

6 winter causing many of my cows to be stressed and 

7 catch pneumonia. I lost about 10 percent of my 

8 heifer cows from sickness. The winter was long 

9 with lots of snow, and a result this spring we 

10 had lots of runoff and some of the worst ice jam 

11 flooding I've seen since we bought the ranch. 

12 Ice jams were about a half a mile, and the river 

13 came out onto my irrigating ground and totally 

14 covered a 55-acre field.

15 I had 50 head of heifers that were ready 

16 to have their first calf in the past year that 

17 was in the path of the flood waters. The water 

18 came up very quickly and I did not have time to 

19 get the cattle out of the pasture. I saw the 

20 water and immediately thought that I had lost all 

21 50 head of heifers. We looked a little closer 

22 and I could see some of them trapped on a high 

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1 spot they had found. I had no way to get to them 

2 for rescue. There was water eight feet deep 

3 between the house and where the heifers were. It 

4 took me all night to get them to safety.

5 The flood waters took out close to a mile 

6 of fences on my ranch, and I'm still trying to 

7 get them fixed. My irrigated field was covered 

8 with floating trees and ice that I needed to 

9 clean up. The same field was littered with 

10 branches last year from the tornado.

11 Climate change affects the weather and 

12 we, in agriculture, have to deal with the weather 

13 every day. And the weather can make or break us.

14 If we want agriculture as I know it to 

15 continue to thrive it is an economic and cultural 

16 imperative to deal with climate change. As a 

17 rural electric cooperative member and rate payer, 

18 I'd like to respond to those co-ops that have 

19 expressed concerns about the proposed rule.

20 These co-ops, including my own, are 

21 living in the past and still think that the only 

22 viable source of power is coal. They are paying 

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1 the price for it now. The supplier for our 

2 copper dome tried to build a coal plant that 

3 proved to be an enormous boondoggle. Our power 

4 supplier made bad decisions and is currently 

5 going through bankruptcy proceedings.

6 Renewable power is cheaper, cleaner, and 

7 provides more jobs than coal-fired power. We 

8 need renewables now. We know that coal is the 

9 leading source of carbon dioxide in the 

10 atmosphere, and we need a transition toward 

11 renewable sources of power; but there are reasons 

12 other than climate to shift our energy policy 

13 away from coal as well.

14 My ranch is located on a potential path 

15 for a new railroad to develop a new coal mine 

16 about 50 miles away. My ranch would face 

17 condemnation were it to be built.

18 In addition to condemning family farms 

19 and ranches, opening that mine would permanently 

20 tear up an important agricultural aquifer. We 

21 can and must do better.

22 Since the mine at Otter Creek has also 

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1 been discussed as an export mine, I think it's 

2 important to note that no serious national effort 

3 to rein carbon dioxide and coal is complete 

4 without addressing coal exports. It makes no 

5 sense to shift coal to Asia to have the 

6 prevailing winds bring back two tons of carbon 

7 dioxide for every ton of coal we ship to them.

8 One hundred miles away they are 

9 developing an oil field at an amazing pace in the 

10 Bakken Region of North Dakota and Montana. There 

11 is natural gas that is a by-product and is simply 

12 being flared and wasted. We should salvage all 

13 the natural gases now being wasted. Methane 

14 emissions are a greenhouse gas that must be 

15 looked at in addition to carbon dioxide. It's 

16 critical that the BLM's proposal to limit flaring 

17 and venting of methane and EPA's methane 

18 pollutions standards move forward. Otherwise 

19 switching from coal to natural gas could make 

20 climate change worse, not better.

21 Even with better controls on methane, 

22 though, promoting natural gas is not a good 

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1 solution to climate change. Energy efficiency 

2 and renewable energy are much better.

3 And I'd just like to thank you for 

4 allowing us to speak and appreciate the 

5 opportunity to talk. Thank you.

6 (Buzzer sounded.)

7 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Thank you very 

8 much. Ms. Miller?

9 MS. MILLER: My name is Marsha Miller.

10 MS. ROTHERY: You need to turn it on.

11 MS. NOONAN: Yes. Mr. Fix, could you 

12 turn your microphone off? Thank you.

13 MS. MILLER: My name is Marsha Miller, 

14 M-A-R-S-H-A, M-I-L-L-E-R. And thank you very 

15 much for holding these hearings. I think it's 

16 very important to hear from the public because, 

17 after all, we are the government.

18 I am speaking to the elephant in the 

19 room. What is preventing America which claims to 

20 be a leader among world nations from implementing 

21 the advancements? Countries in Europe have made 

22 in implementing 21st century sustainable clean 

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1 energy technology. While advancements have been 

2 made and embraced in the markets through 

3 scientific research in every other sector of our 

4 economy, why are we stuck on the treadmill of 

5 using coal and other fossil fuels?

6 If we maintained that mindset for 

7 medicine, we would not be using the current 

8 lifesaving advancements that have saved so many 

9 from cancer, service men and women caught in land 

10 mines and so many other examples.

11 There has been testimony from scientists 

12 and health professionals, ranchers, many 

13 environmentalists, and many other professionals 

14 about the significant health hazards of 

15 continuing reliance on archaic carbon-producing 

16 energy sources.

17 The labor market must continually adjust 

18 and adapt to the current technological 

19 advancements in every other sector. What forces 

20 are creating such undue pressure on political 

21 will that keeps America from coming into the 21st 

22 Century of using clean, sustainable energy 

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1 sources of wind, solar, and other scientific 

2 advancements?

3 If continuing use of carbon sources of 

4 energy is hazardous to mankind's health, how can 

5 we justify this madness?

6 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much.

7 Travis Madsen and Ron Lehr?

8 MR. MADSEN: Hi, I'm Travis Madsen. My 

9 last name's spelled M-A-D-S-E-N. I am the Senior 

10 Program Manager for Global Warming Solutions at 

11 Environment America. I'm here on behalf of our 

12 29 state organizations and our more than one 

13 million members and supporters across the 

14 country. Thanks for the opportunity to speak.

15 We believe that the Clean Power Plan is a 

16 vital step forward, and we support the 

17 finalization of the strongest possible plan to 

18 limit climate altering carbon pollution from 

19 power plants. We truly appreciate President 

20 Obama's and EPA's leadership in putting this plan 

21 forward.

22 I'm sure many of the other speakers today 

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1 have talked about how certain we've all become 

2 that global warming is underway. There's lots of 

3 examples of the impacts that we've been facing. 

4 I've just been out on the east coast visiting 

5 some areas impacted by Hurricane Sandy, and I 

6 know that NOAA put out some research recently 

7 that shows that coastal flooding is twice as 

8 likely -- on that scale is twice as likely now as 

9 it was in 1950 because of warming driven sea 

10 level rise.

11 I grew up here in Colorado, and I notice 

12 every time I go into the mountains the extent of 

13 the bark beetle infestation in the forest --

14 things do not look the same as when I was a kid, 

15 and it's shocking. And I'm -- and I'm convinced 

16 that unless we take urgent and aggressive action 

17 to reduce our emissions of global warming 

18 pollution, our children are going to be worse 

19 off.

20 So, as the world's largest economy and 

21 the nation that's responsible for more of the 

22 carbon pollution in the atmosphere than any other 

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1 country and also a center for clean energy 

2 technology and research, we feel that the United 

3 States has a responsibility to lead the world in

4 tackling the problem of global warming.

5 And to do our part to limit world 

6 temperature increase to no more than 2 degrees 

7 Celsius, that means the United States must reduce 

8 its emission of global warming pollution by at 

9 least 80 percent by mid century.

10 Power plants are the single largest 

11 source of U.S. carbon pollution. We put out a 

12 report last year called America's Dirtiest Power 

13 Plants that counted up the 50 dirtiest plants in 

14 the United States, and they had more carbon 

15 pollution each year than all but five other 

16 countries.

17 So while we must move quickly to 

18 eliminate carbon pollution from all sources, 

19 power plants are one of our best opportunities to 

20 make the rapid and deep reductions in emissions 

21 that we need. Fortunately, we have solutions to 

22 global warming at our fingertips. We have the 

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1 technology to dramatically reduce emissions of 

2 carbon dioxide and other pollutants by using 

3 energy more efficiently and generating more of 

4 our power from truly clean sources like the wind 

5 and the sun.

6 Environment America applauds the EPA for 

7 responding to the urgent need to protect public 

8 health and our children's future by reining in 

9 unlimited carbon pollution from power plants 

10 through the Clean Power Plan. But given the 

11 scope of the problem and the urgent need to act, 

12 we can and must do better.

13 The most important thing that EPA could 

14 do to improve the Clean Power Plan is to 

15 strengthen the targets for reducing emissions. 

16 EPA should adjust the formulas for setting these 

17 targets so that they more fully capture the vast 

18 potential for clean energy resources like wind, 

19 solar, and energy efficiency to reduce the carbon 

20 emissions of the U.S. powerfully.

21 Clean energy, efficiency, and renewables 

22 are the best tools we have available to reduce 

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1 pollution from fossil fuels. And every state in 

2 the country has much more potential to capture 

3 clean energy resources at low cost.

4 EPA should adopt a better approach to 

5 estimating the growth potential for renewable 

6 energy and adopt stronger -- stronger benchmarks 

7 that more accurately reflect that potential.

8 You should ground this assessment based 

9 not on what some states have already accomplished 

10 but instead, what states can do beyond what 

11 they're already done.

12 So, for example, the National Renewable 

13 Energy Laboratory recently put out a study that 

14 found that renewable energy technologies that we 

15 have available now could supply 80 percent of the 

16 United States' electricity in 2050 while meeting 

17 a demand for power at every hour of the day in 

18 every region of the country throughout the whole

19 year.

20 Second, EPA should increase the 

21 contribution of energy efficiency to the overall 

22 target with more ambitious assessments of what is 

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1 possible. So, for example, the American Council 

2 for an Energy Efficient Economy estimates that by 

3 mid century we could reduce our overall energy 

4 consumption by 40 to 60 percent even as our 

5 economy continues to grow.

6 Making the investments to do that would 

7 dramatically reduce carbon pollution. And they'd 

8 also create 2 million jobs and save consumers an 

9 average of $400 billion a year.

10 So by increasing the role of these clean 

11 energy technologies and the formulas that 

12 established state targets within the Clean Power 

13 Plan we believe that EPA could impact --

14 (Buzzer sounded.)

15 MR. MADSEN: -- reduce the impact of the 

16 proposal such that it produces emissions 35 to 40 

17 percent below 2005 levels by 2020 -- or 2030. 

18 Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

19 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Mr. Lehr?

20 MR. LEHR: Good morning. My name is Ron 

21 Lehr -- R-O-N, L-E-H-R. I'm an attorney in 

22 Englewood, Colorado. Previously I've served as 

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1 Commissioner and Chairman of the Colorado Public 

2 Utilities Commission and Commissioner and 

3 President of the Denver Water Board -- Water 

4 Commission. So I have a long career, about 45 

5 years, of looking at the economics of utility 

6 investment and the modeling that supports those 

7 economic choices.

8 I want to testify in support of EPA 

9 strengthening its carbon reduction requirements 

10 for the nation and for Colorado this morning. I 

11 think there are three reasons for that. 

12 One is early action is better than later. 

13 Second one are the reasons about energy 

14 efficiency on which Howard Geller just gave his 

15 testimony. The third is a remarkable recent 

16 development here in Colorado concerning renewable 

17 energy where good results -- American place good 

18 results show that fossil fuel can be replaced 

19 with renewable energy at a savings to consumers.

20 In 2011 Public Service Company of 

21 Colorado filed its Energy and Resource Plan for 

22 acquisition of resources in a period following 

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1 2016 -- 2016 and 2018, that period -- by putting 

2 on the table at the Public Utilities Commission 

3 some requests for proposals and supporting 

4 materials that they wanted the Commission to 

5 allow them to issue to the market.

6 The Commission took a look at those. 

7 They approved a set of RFPs and a series of 

8 decisions about how they would be judged to get a 

9 portfolio of resources for those future needs. 

10 The Public Service Company put the RFP out. 

11 There were responses from 6,200 megawatts of 

12 bids. That's a lot of bids on a system that 

13 peaks at about 7,700 megawatts.

14 So, bidders were confident that they 

15 could get a good look by that utility company 

16 because over the last 25 years we've worked hard 

17 in Colorado to discipline the monopsony behavior 

18 of the utility. A monopsony is a single buyer in 

19 the market, and it's one of the biggest barriers 

20 that we have for bringing clean resources into 

21 utility systems.

22 Now here in Colorado there's an 

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1 independent evaluator. The utility has tried all 

2 kinds of things to have its own way with the 

3 bids, but we've got a system now where it's 

4 transparent and the bidders have confidence.

5 So, 6,200 megawatts of bids; Public 

6 Service Company looked through those; they 

7 brought back a portfolio of resources that would 

8 meet the future needs. And in those resources 

9 they found 450 megawatts of wind and 170 

10 megawatts of solar photovoltaics that were lower 

11 than system average cost.

12 So what that means is if you took all the 

13 stuff that public service companies are running 

14 to turn the lights on in this room today and take 

15 the average of all those costs, the new wind and 

16 solar were coming in below the average system 

17 cost. That means that the stuff that they have 

18 that's above average system cost is out of the 

19 money. We can replace that with new clean stuff 

20 and consumers can save money.

21 I would say that this is exactly the 

22 result that we intended when we passed -- when we 

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1 put on the ballot and passed Amendment 37 in 

2 2004, just 10 years ago. We wanted to get solar 

3 and wind up. We wanted to get them going, and we 

4 wanted to bring their costs down.

5 The results of this bid -- a marketplace 

6 test of the cost of renewable energy supervised 

7 by a public record at the Public Utilities 

8 Commission show that new wind and solar come in 

9 at lower than system average costs here in 

10 Colorado. And I hold for your consideration that 

11 if we can do it here, it can be done elsewhere as 

12 well.

13 The costs of renewable energy are 

14 dropping, as you know. The cost for fossil fuel 

15 are rising, as you know. These two lines have 

16 intersected here in Colorado in a very important 

17 way. And this means we can now proceed more 

18 quickly than you are suggesting in your proposed 

19 rule.

20 I have in my written remarks documented 

21 the decision of the Commission which was taken on 

22 December 20th of last year as well as some 

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1 additional work that's been done in the west that 

2 supports these outcomes. So I'd be happy to 

3 submit that to you.

4 Let me take just a moment to suggest to 

5 you that there's another reason we need to move 

6 quickly. In 1996 an 11,000-acre forest fire in 

7 the mountains west of Denver burned the South 

8 Platte Drainage System that Denver uses to supply 

9 most of its water. The Water Board sat on the 

10 edges of our seats while the Foothills Treatment 

11 Plant which served 70 percent of the metro area's 

12 treated water was down. It was wrecked. It was 

13 out of service. 

14 At the time the second largest customer 

15 of the Denver Water System was one coal-fired 

16 power plant. We faced some very serious issues 

17 there that the water department is now a prime 

18 proponent of climate action and that is another 

19 reason --

20 (Buzzer sounded.)

21 MR. LEHR: -- we need to move more 

22 quickly than what you suggested.

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1 So, thanks very much for what you're 

2 doing here and hope you'll take my suggestion and 

3 move it up.

4 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Great. And with that 

5 I think I'd like to take a 10-minute break to --

6 we'll have a 10-minute break, so we will 

7 reconvene at 12:15.

8 (Brief recess.)

9 MS. NOONAN: Okay. I would like to 

10 welcome everybody back. Could Allison Fisher and 

11 Alex Burke be our next folks. And then Hubert B. 

12 Two Leggins and Megan Gilman, if you'd like to 

13 join us at the reserved seats behind the 

14 speaker's table? And then also Allison Fisher 

15 and Kelly Sloan, if you'd also like to take seats 

16 behind the speaker's table?

17 MS. FISHER: I’m Allison Fisher.

18 MS. NOONAN: Oh, you are here twice.

19 MS. FISHER: Yeah.

20 MS. NOONAN: You are both 38 and 42.

21 MS. FISHER: I can go twice. I can -- if 

22 you wanted to give me 10 minutes, I --

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1 MS. NOONAN: Nah.

2 MS. FISHER: I'll still say exactly the 

3 same thing.

4 MS. NOONAN: Okay. All right. Well, 

5 thank you very much. And perhaps you would like 

6 to start?

7 MS. FISHER: Sure. You need me to spell 

8 my name? So it's Fisher. It's F-I-S-H-E-R. 

9 Thank you. Yes, my name is Allison Fisher. I'm

10 the Outreach Director for Public Citizen's Energy 

11 and Climate Program. Public Citizen is a 

12 national non-profit organization that's been 

13 advocating for consumers for more than 40 years.

14 We have 300,000 members and supporters 

15 across the country, approximately 2,000 of which 

16 reside right here in Colorado.

17 And I'm here today to represent those 

18 folks -- sorry -- to represent those folks and 

19 reflect the objectives of Public Citizen's Energy 

20 which is the advocacy of clean, safe, and 

21 affordable energy for American consumers.

22 I'd like to start by thanking the EPA for 

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1 the opportunity to comment on the Agency's 

2 proposed Clean Power Plan, and, of course, due to 

3 the time restrictions today, I'm just going to 

4 touch on a few key points, but Public Citizen 

5 will be submitting our full technical comments 

6 this fall.

7 So first, I'd like to say that Public 

8 Citizens strongly supports the regulation of 

9 carbon emissions from our power sector and the 

10 regulations around how we extract, produce, and 

11 consume energy are often passed by the industries 

12 in exercise and burdensome bureaucracy. The 

13 reality is safeguards in our energy sector 

14 protect our workers and communities, benefit our 

15 economy, and minimize the impact on our 

16 environment and natural resources.

17 It is actually the lack of adequate 

18 regulations or the violation of existing 

19 safeguards that too often have resulted in 

20 contamination of our air, land, and water. And 

21 it is the lack of limitations end up in carbon 

22 pollution into our atmosphere to add to the 

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1 current climate change crisis.

2 So to this end Public Citizen would 

3 propose that the science demands and our 

4 technological advancements allow a more 

5 aggressive plan than what the agency has put 

6 forward to address the largest source of U.S. 

7 climate-altering pollution. And we believe that 

8 more aggressive reduction targets if met through 

9 renewable energy technologies, energy efficiency, 

10 and properly structured mechanisms to put a price 

11 on carbon pollution will lead to electricity --

12 I'm sorry -- will lead to lower electricity bills 

13 in the long term and not to the industry's 

14 doomsday scenarios that always accompany 

15 pollution regulations but which never come to 

16 pass.

17 In fact, cost estimates for clean air 

18 regulations have historically been higher than 

19 the actual program costs. And in this case the 

20 flexibility that the Agency has built into the 

21 Clean Power Plan will allow states to design and 

22 implement compliant strategies that fully offset 

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1 costs to consumers.

2 Safe plans that drive utility and 

3 consumer investments in energy efficiency demand 

4 side management and distributed renewable energy 

5 technologies that lower power demand will lower 

6 compliance costs and produce added benefits for 

7 electricity consumers because the -- just put it 

8 simply, reducing consumption lowers bills. And 

9 lower total demand will reduce the price of power 

10 for all electricity consumers whether those users 

11 invested in energy efficiency or not.

12 So we strongly urge the EPA to increase 

13 its efficiency targets and renewable projections 

14 and urge states to prioritize these compliance 

15 methods.

16 Conversely, we feel that reduction 

17 targets should not be met through increased 

18 dependency of natural gas or other dangerous and 

19 costly sources like nuclear power. And Public 

20 Citizen has done a lot of work on nuclear 

21 regulations and will be dedicating a substantial 

22 portion of our technical comments to the nuclear 

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1 provisions in the Plan.

2 Lastly, while we recognize that the 

3 proposal is designed to address carbon emissions 

4 within the power sector, we strongly urge the EPA 

5 to immediately draft rules that address methane. 

6 It's an extremely dangerous and potent greenhouse 

7 gas -- greenhouse gas, and we really need a 

8 comprehensive plan if we're going to avert 

9 catastrophic climate change.

10 And thank you guys for all your work and 

11 -- and for the opportunity to speak with you 

12 today.

13 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Mr. Burke? Ms. 

14 Fisher, if you could turn yours off?

15 MS. FISHER: Sure.

16 MS. NOONAN: And then --

17 MR. BURKE: It's Alex Burke, A-L-E-X, 

18 B-U-R-K-E.

19 So, hi, my name's Alex Burke, and I'm a 

20 Denver resident, a student at the University of 

21 Denver, and a volunteer with the Sierra Club.

22 First and foremost I would like to start 

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1 by taking a moment to thank the Environmental 

2 Protection Agency and every individual within the 

3 agency who has dedicated their time and effort to 

4 produce this national environmental policy.

5 The time for the United States to take 

6 serious action on climate change has arrived. 

7 And I'm glad that the Obama administration has 

8 made this plan a priority.

9 Additionally, I would like to thank all 

10 of the public supporters who took time out of 

11 their week to come to Denver and attend this 

12 hearing and the related events.

13 We've reached a point in time where the 

14 effects of climate change have become both 

15 recognizable and measurable. For the past 

16 several years here in Colorado we have felt the 

17 impacts of climate change in the form of severe 

18 drought, extreme flooding, and devastating forest 

19 fires. In 2011 and 2012 alone these extreme 

20 results of climate change cost the State of 

21 Colorado over $600 million in federal disaster 

22 aid.

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1 These impacts are not by any means 

2 limited to our state alone. Over the past 

3 century the average temperature in nearly every 

4 state in the U.S. has steadily increased. 

5 Additionally, 7 of the 10 warmest years on record 

6 have occurred past 1998. These startling figures 

7 do not merely represent isolated climatological 

8 anomalies. They represent a fierce pattern of 

9 sustained climate change that shows no sign of 

10 stopping.

11 According to the National Climate 

12 Assessment released earlier this year, Colorado 

13 and the southwest can expect even more heat 

14 waves, more extreme and sustained droughts, and 

15 declining air and water quality in the decades to 

16 come. The consequences of these climate 

17 disruptions will affect the environment, the 

18 economy, and the health of our posterity.

19 The impacts of climate change on public 

20 health are perhaps more startling than the 

21 environmental consequences alone. According to 

22 the Clean Air Task Force, air pollution from coal 

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1 fired power plants in Colorado alone contributes 

2 to 53 deaths, 81 heart attacks, and over 1,000 

3 asthma attacks every year. These impacts add up 

4 to over $400,000 in annual health costs. 

5 Other climate-related health effects, 

6 including those related to heat stress, air 

7 pollution, and extreme weather events will have 

8 the most severe impact on children, the elderly, 

9 and the poor. These extreme costs to public 

10 health, our environment, and our economy will 

11 continue to grow unless we act now.

12 The Clean Power Plan proposed by the EPA 

13 offers a non-destructive set of flexible 

14 approaches for states to reduce their carbon 

15 pollution levels. I'm dumbfounded by the fact 

16 that there are limits already in place at power 

17 plants for pollutants such as arsenic and 

18 mercury, yet there's currently no national limit 

19 for carbon pollution which accounts for 82 

20 percent of all U.S. greenhouse gas emissions.

21 Nationwide the Clean Power Plan will help 

22 cut these carbon emissions from the power sector 

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1 by 30 percent from our 2005 levels. The Clean 

2 Power Plan's especially valuable, and that will 

3 not produce disruptive effects in the power 

4 sector because it mainly reinforces trends that 

5 many states have already adopted.

6 Additionally, the plan is flexible in 

7 that it offers a set of guidelines that allows 

8 states to meet the national goal through means 

9 that best suit them. 

10 For the majority of my life it has been 

11 acceptable to deny the realities of climate 

12 change despite the evidence to the contrary. The 

13 time has come for that to change. My generation 

14 will no longer stand by and accept being crippled 

15 by the inaction of earlier generations. As a 

16 young American, I want to ensure that my children 

17 and eventually their children have the right to 

18 clean air and a healthy future. 

19 Thank you for this opportunity to testify 

20 and for taking this very important step forward 

21 in the fight against climate change.

22 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. Mr. Two 

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1 Leggins and Megan Gilman, please?

2 Ms. Gilman, do you -- do you want to 

3 start?

4 MS. GILMAN: Sure. 

5 MS. NOONAN: You're on.

6 MS. GILMAN: All right. My name is Megan 

7 Gilman, and I'm the Vice-President of Board of 

8 Directors of Holy Cross Energy. My name is M-E9 G-A-N, G-I-L-M-A-N. Holy Cross Energy is an 

10 electric cooperative which is a member-owned not11 for-profit electric company. We serve the areas 

12 of Vail and Aspen, Colorado, and all the areas in 

13 between.

14 Guided by our member owners environmental 

15 goals and concerns, Holy Cross Energy has taken a 

16 proactive approach to carbon reduction. Climate 

17 change is a challenge not easily resolved, but we 

18 recognize that electric utilities are major 

19 stakeholders in solving this issue as power 

20 plants are the largest source of carbon pollution 

21 in the U.S.

22 We are committed to remain proactive, 

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1 engaged, and innovative using the special skills 

2 and knowledge of the industry to continue to 

3 provide reliable, cost effective electrical 

4 services while tackling this significant 

5 environmental challenge. This includes a sincere 

6 effort to move to lower carbon intensity with 

7 measureable and timely goals for our actions.

8 Holy Cross Energy voluntarily set an 

9 internal goal of 20 percent renewable energy by 

10 2015 which we already surpassed this year ahead 

11 of schedule. Continuing on our path to cleaner 

12 energy sources, the Board of Directors set two 

13 additional renewable energy goals: 30 percent by 

14 2020 and 35 percent by 2025.

15 Given Holy Cross Energy's existing 

16 progress and stated goals, we expect to deliver 

17 carbon reductions in line with those identified 

18 in the EPA's Clean Power Plan within the 

19 designated timeline.

20 While we understand there are significant 

21 differences between utilities and regions, 

22 climate change is not a local issue. We feel it 

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1 is in the best, long-term interest of our member 

2 owners to support an overall reduction in carbon 

3 emissions which can also result in a more 

4 diversified resilient power supply.

5 Holy Cross Energy looks forward to 

6 continued involvement in a positive dialog as an 

7 important technical partner, legislative 

8 stakeholder, and democratically representative 

9 organization responsible for the best interests 

10 of our member owners.

11 As part of this involvement we want to 

12 ensure that the EPA has proper accounting and 

13 incentives in place in a few key areas. None of 

14 these is intended to in any weaken the rule but 

15 to ensure that it can be as effective as possible 

16 in limiting the power industry's impact on 

17 climate change and to point out projects that are 

18 innovative and can result in outside impact that 

19 may not be properly accounted for.

20 The first is to discuss power production 

21 through combusting and vented methane. Methane 

22 is an incredibly harmful greenhouse gas with 

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1 significantly more impact than the carbon dioxide 

2 we can turn it into. Methane is naturally vented 

3 from coal mines, so we have proactively partnered 

4 with an active coal mine in western Colorado to 

5 combust this -- the venting methane and purchase 

6 the resulting energy. We did so to support this 

7 outstanding project and to limit our greenhouse 

8 gas emissions.

9 We feel the need to see more innovative 

10 and groundbreaking projects like this one; 

11 however, we are a bit concerned that since we 

12 installed this project after 2012, this could 

13 count as a carbon increase for us rather than the 

14 major decrease in greenhouse gas emissions that 

15 it will actually have. We fear that this could 

16 limit how many other utilities and investors take 

17 on projects of this sort, and we wouldn't want to 

18 see that happen.

19 Biomass is a similar situation. I urge 

20 you to consider the life cycle greenhouse gas 

21 contributions, especially considering the massive 

22 wildfire risk that we face here in Colorado, to 

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1 support woody biomass projects such like one we 

2 also have in western Colorado which helps to 

3 create renewable energy and also increase our 

4 forest health by taking down some of our 

5 dangerous and dead trees that we have standing.

6 The last bit of input is to ensure your 

7 properly accounting for early action. Ensure 

8 that those of us who have taken a leadership role 

9 and have broken new ground can have some 

10 accounting for these projects occurring before 

11 2012 so long as they actually result in a 

12 reduction in our energy intensity -- our carbon 

13 intensity since 2005.

14 Again, I appreciate your time, and we 

15 feel that our company's environmental goals and 

16 those of our members are very well aligned with 

17 an overall reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, 

18 and we wholeheartedly look forward to 

19 participating --

20 (Buzzer sounded.)

21 MS. GILMAN: -- to make the rule as 

22 effective and impactful as possible.

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1 MR. TWO LEGGINS: Hello, my name is 

2 Hubert Two Leggins, H-U-B-E-R-T, T-W-O-L-E-G-G-I3 N-S; and I am a member of the Crow Tribe of 

4 Montana. I am currently a Board member of the 

5 Medicine Wheel Alliance and also I am a 

6 historian for our tribe, and also the cultural 

7 Director, and the Tribal Historical Preservation 

8 Officer, and our Renewable Resource Co-op 

9 Supervisor for the tribe. And so I have a lot of 

10 concerns of the mercury levels that we have on 

11 our -- on our land. I thought I was living in a 

12 pristine area, but it isn't so.

13 I just want to make a little bit of some 

14 research that was done, some studies, and it says 

15 that we have several reasons for being concerned 

16 about mercury contamination of local fish. And a 

17 major -- there's been a major survey of fish 

18 mercury levels conducted by the EPA, the Walleye 

19 (phonetic) and Big Horn Reservoir on the 

20 reservation had some of the highest levels in the 

21 country.

22 The coal burning power plants in nearby 

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1 Colstrip is the major source of atmospheric 

2 mercury pollution in the State of Montana. And 

3 additional power plants are located in Billings 

4 and Hardin, Montana. Atmospheric imposition of 

5 mercury to land and water surfaces lead to 

6 condensation of elemental mercury and to methyl 

7 mercury in aquatic ecosystems.

8 Methyl mercury is biomagnified up the 

9 aquatic food chain by a factor of 10 million in 

10 top predators -- humans, birds, and mammals 

11 eating contaminated fish have the highest level 

12 of exposure in the U.S. Eighty percent of women 

13 of child-bearing age are considered to be at risk 

14 due to high blood levels. 410,000 children per 

15 year are exposed to levels in womb, associated 

16 with neurological impairment.

17 And so as a historian and tribal 

18 historical preservation officer, our history is 

19 that we -- you are the stewards of this land and 

20 this country. And at that time before 1492 a lot 

21 of shifts have occurred, paradigm shifts have 

22 occurred to where there are losses, corrosion, 

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1 and those are the chapters of our history.

2 And so thinking that you can go and fish 

3 and eat the fish that I catch, I didn't know that 

4 they were contaminated. And so the things that 

5 I’m concerned about is the young ones, the ones 

6 that are unborn. There's going to be effects 

7 that's going to be happening because there's no 

8 warning signs or anything like that on our 

9 Reservation.

10 And the things that are important to us 

11 is that the old ones, the ones that have passed 

12 down have left the oral history and the 

13 traditional knowledge is that we respect the 

14 water, the air, the ground, the earth, the soil, 

15 and fire because we need those to survive. We 

16 need those to live, but on the other side of the 

17 coin we can die from them.

18 And the old ones said protect the water, 

19 the air, the land, and the fire. We fear them 

20 but we need them to live. And so now with all 

21 the shifts that have occurred through today I see 

22 that we're getting earthquakes, a combination of 

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1 air and water, you know, the devastations that 

2 tsunamis and forest fires with air and fire, and 

3 the land, we're disturbing the land and we're 

4 polluting them --

5 (Buzzer sounded.)

6 MR. TWO LEGGINS: -- and that's why we 

7 are getting a lot of repercussions that we are 

8 seeing now in the news. And the older ones know, 

9 and I -- I've got a lot more to say, but I guess 

10 I'll quit there.

11 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Well, thank you, and 

12 please submit any additional comments for the 

13 record. Thank you. Thank you both.

14 All right. And the last speaker before 

15 the lunch break is going to be Kelly Sloan.

16 MR. SLOAN: Thank you. My name is Kelly 

17 Sloan, S-L-O-A-N, of Grand Junction. I'm 

18 speaking on behalf of the Associated Governments 

19 of Northwest Colorado.

20 First, I should like to thank you for the 

21 opportunity to appear before you today and to 

22 relay some of the concerns of the people of 

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1 northwest Colorado and their elected and local 

2 county governments. We are, of course, 

3 disappointed that your agency elected not to hold 

4 this hearing in western Colorado nearer to the 

5 people who will be most impacted by your decision 

6 and where you can see the reality which is the 

7 cleanliness and safety of coal-fired electrical 

8 generation rather than the hyperbole and alarmism 

9 of urban based special interest groups. 

10 Nevertheless, we welcome the chance to let the 

11 majority's voice be heard among the chatter.

12 Our primary concerns center on the 

13 devastating economic impacts that ill-conceived, 

14 agenda driven, and insufficiently informed 

15 federal regulations will have on our local 

16 communities. 

17 It is clear that the goal of this plan is 

18 to eliminate or at least substantially curtail 

19 electrical production from coal. Our region is 

20 heavily economically dependent on coal mining, 

21 and these arbitrary standards will be ruinous to 

22 families who rely on power's clean coal to pay 

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1 for mortgages, rent, food, medical bills, 

2 children's educations. It is these people --

3 parents, workers, small business owners, farmers, 

4 and ranchers who will be the victims of this 

5 proposal.

6 This plan is an attempt to engineer a 

7 generical future where energy can be produced 

8 without fossil fuels based on a preconceived 

9 notion of what fossil fuel generation looks like. 

10 And unfortunately, science and reality do not 

11 bend to sheer political will. Wind, solar, and 

12 other renewables certainly have their place, but 

13 by their very nature they cannot make up more 

14 than -- by the most educated estimates -- roughly 

15 20 percent of a given grid.

16 The exception, of course, is large scale 

17 hydro power like that seen in the Pacific 

18 Northwest, but here in Colorado while hydro power 

19 is certainly underutilized, the capacity for that 

20 level of production does not exist either.

21 According to the Energy Information 

22 Administration, wind and solar only made up about 

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1 3.5 percent of total electrical generation in the 

2 United States in 2012 despite receiving billions 

3 of dollars in subsidies and several state-level 

4 attempts at imposing artificial renewable 

5 standards.

6 The reasons that wind and solar are not 

7 the silver bullets that some would try to claim 

8 is because, A, they're intermittent, requiring 

9 expensive back-up generation in order to 

10 adequately respond to fluctuations in demand; B, 

11 there does not exist at this time any way to 

12 store solar or wind energy, and there are no 

13 practical technologies on the horizon; and C, 

14 because their generators must be located where 

15 the resource -- the Devil's Horn wind resources 

16 are located as opposed to the best location to 

17 put a generator, and that necessarily translates 

18 to higher transmission costs.

19 The EPA's plan is a solution in search of 

20 a problem, and it's looking in the wrong place. 

21 Colorado's clean low sulfur, low mercury, low ash 

22 coal is not a major contributor to pollution. In 

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1 fact, most, if not all American coal-fired 

2 generators and those of other western nations, 

3 including Germany, who gets most of their 

4 electrical production from coal generation, all 

5 in play technologies and techniques already more 

6 than sufficiently reduce or limit emissions.

7 Carbon dioxide emissions from U.S. coal 

8 amount to only about 3 percent of the global 

9 total. And, again, that is from the Energy 

10 Information Administration. If the EPA truly 

11 aims to do something about global pollution, the 

12 problem is not with the United States; it's in 

13 places like India and China where in Beijing the 

14 air is so bad that sunrises can only be seen if 

15 they're broadcast on electrical billboards. I 

16 assure you that the sunrises are perfectly 

17 visible in Cray, Colorado.

18 A more prudent federal policy for 

19 pollution control would perhaps involve 

20 facilitating exports of Colorado's clean coal to 

21 nations such as this to replace the dirtier forms 

22 that they are currently using. 

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1 Proponents of your plan speak of a 

2 hypothetical tragedy, that being the impacts of 

3 climate change. This plan would bring about a 

4 very real tragedy. That's the economic 

5 dislocation of hundreds of middle and working 

6 class families and, in fact, of entire towns and 

7 counties.

8 The increase in energy costs this planet 

9 will -- not may but will bring about -- will have 

10 a damning affect on the overall economy beyond 

11 just the regions like ours that will face gravely 

12 immediate, intermediate, and long-term prospects.

13 And these higher energy costs will most directly 

14 impact those who can least afford it.

15 Coal, natural gas, solar, hydro, wind, 

16 biomass, even nuclear power all play a part in 

17 comprising the overall energy portfolio of our 

18 state, but we must be allowed to compete openly 

19 in a free market.

20 Industry favoritism and economic 

21 micromanagement by federal agencies such as yours 

22 never end well, and it will be rural middle class 

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1 Americans who will suffer the most initially and 

2 the rest of the country in due course.

3 And I leave you with this: Keep in mind 

4 that changing the input fuel of a plant in, say, 

5 the middle of Denver, not that big a deal. The 

6 sun will come up the next morning economically 

7 speaking. Do the same thing in Cray, Colorado or 

8 Hayden, Colorado, and the sun isn't coming up the 

9 next morning. Thank you very much.

10 MS. NOONAN: I do have one last speaker. 

11 We do have one last speaker before the quick 

12 break. Mary Parker, here in the room?

13 MS. PARKER: Hello. It's working, I 

14 guess?

15 MS. NOONAN: Push your button. Could you 

16 turn it on? Thank you.

17 MS. PARKER: Thank you. My name's Mary 

18 Parker. I live in Littleton, Colorado, and I 

19 thank you for the opportunity to speak here 

20 today. I am a small business owner, so I am 

21 concerned and interested in the economy and the 

22 private sector.

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1 I'm also a candidate for the Colorado 

2 House of Representatives, so I appreciate what 

3 the public sector can do and what 

4 responsibilities the public sector has for the 

5 health, and the safety, and the welfare of the 

6 citizens.

7 But today I am here as a mother. I'm 

8 here with the Colorado Moms Know Best group. I 

9 am the mother of four daughters and six 

10 grandchildren. My grandchildren range in age 

11 from 18 years old, just graduating from high 

12 school, to 3 months old, so still developing a 

13 personality.

14 And even though I've reached this stage 

15 in my life where I have six grandchildren, I 

16 still remember the day I brought my oldest 

17 daughter home from the hospital. I will never 

18 forget the fears of a new mom not even knowing 

19 what to do when the baby starts to cry, whether 

20 they are hungry, whether they're cold, whether 

21 they're in pain. And it was very scary, and I 

22 felt totally incompetent as a new mother.

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1 And I thought as the years went on I 

2 would get better at it -- I did -- and that I 

3 would have less fear for my children and that all 

4 I needed to do was, you know, that little 

5 checklist when they are 21 and they get out of 

6 the house and they're on their own, and they were 

7 educated, and they were competent, and capable, 

8 and responsible. And I thought that's when 

9 parenting ended, but I was wrong because it never 

10 ends. And I have concern about my children and 

11 their future just in an economic sense and in 

12 opportunities that I think I had and I'm not sure 

13 they had.

14 And I also am very worried about my 

15 grandchildren because when you do get older, you 

16 have a wider range of experience, and you get to 

17 look back and remember what it was like when you 

18 were a child and the things that you thought were 

19 safe that weren't safe. My parents smoked an 

20 awful lot. I remember -- you know, they have 

21 advertisements of 9 out of 10 doctors prefer X

22 brand of cigarette or something. And today, you 

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1 know, we'd be horrified to think that any doctor 

2 would prefer or recommend a brand of cigarettes.

3 So, I know from experience that things 

4 that look like they're okay sometimes turn out to 

5 not be okay and that it's important to take 

6 action the minute you see that there is a problem 

7 or a concern.

8 I'd also like to say that in my 

9 experience talking to neighbors and in the 

10 activities I've had as a candidate for office, I 

11 often hear people talk about their concerns about 

12 the economy and jobs. I hear them talk about the 

13 national debt and the deficit and how can we 

14 leave our children with this great burden, this 

15 great financial burden. Well, I think that is 

16 true. That is something we need to address, but 

17 I hate to see us sacrifice things like our planet 

18 and our clean air, and our clean water because it 

19 might cost too much. There is no price that you 

20 can put on it. As they say, our environment, our 

21 world is priceless.

22 So, I don't have any statistics here. 

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1 I'm not an expert on this. I appreciate all the 

2 testimony that's already happened and what --

3 what you will be hearing. I am so thrilled to be 

4 living in Colorado because it's got beautiful, 

5 wonderful natural resources. It's where -- I'm 

6 happy to say -- all my children and all my 

7 grandchildren live within 30 miles of Denver. So 

8 we're very much invested in the future of our 

9 state and of our country, and I applaud the 

10 efforts that you are making here today to go 

11 ahead and forge a path to clean air, clean 

12 health, and clean planet. So thank you very 

13 much.

14 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Okay. With that 

15 we're going to take a break until about 10 after 

16 1:00. And then we will return and a new panel 

17 will be here listening, and we'll be back on. 

18 Thank you.

19 And I just want to make sure no one in 

20 the room thinks they were planning to speak at 

21 this time? 

22 (No response.)

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1 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Thank you.

2 (Brief recess.)

3 MS. MORALES: Good afternoon, everybody. 

4 Welcome back to the afternoon session here after 

5 our break from the morning session. 

6 My name is Monica Morales. I am one of 

7 the Chairs of today's public hearing. If you've 

8 been attending some of the morning sessions, 

9 you'll notice we've changed out the panel for the 

10 afternoon.

11 I thank everybody for coming today. 

12 Joining me on the panel today on my left is Colin 

13 Boswell. He's from EPA's office of Air Quality 

14 Planning and Standards in Research Triangle Park, 

15 North Carolina.

16 And on my right is David Risley. He's 

17 from our Office of Atmospheric Programs in 

18 Washington, D.C.

19 So you've got a good representation of 

20 EPA across the country.

21 So we're here today to listen to your 

22 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

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1 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

2 of these proposed rules on June 2nd of 2014.

3 Power plants are the largest sources of 

4 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

5 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

6 emissions. 

7 The first rule is EPA's Proposed Clean 

8 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

9 proposal consists of two main parts: state 

10 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

11 power plants and guidelines to help states 

12 develop their plans for meeting the goals.

13 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

14 determining how to meet these goals. States will 

15 choose what goes into their plan that show how 

16 they will achieve their yearly reductions so they 

17 can meet their goals by 2030.

18 The second rule that EPA proposed is to 

19 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

20 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

21 set emission limits for two groups of power 

22 plants: those that make physical or operational 

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1 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

2 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

3 that replace components to such an extent that 

4 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

5 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

6 facility.

7 If any of you would like more details of 

8 either of these proposed rules, there were fact 

9 sheets available near the registration desk when 

10 you came in.

11 Today's hearing is one of four public 

12 hearings across the country this week on the two 

13 proposed rules. If you were here this morning, 

14 as you've seen we've had a tremendous interest in 

15 each of the hearings and would like to thank all 

16 of you for taking time out of your day to join us 

17 and share your comments.

18 We do have a significant number or people 

19 signed up today and want to be able to hear from 

20 everybody, so before we get started, I just want 

21 to go over a few of the housekeeping items and 

22 ground rules so that this afternoon's session 

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1 will run smoothly.

2 So please make sure that you've at least 

3 registered at the registration desk even if 

4 you're not planning to speak today. If you did 

5 sign up to speak and you haven't told anybody 

6 you're here, please step back out to the 

7 registration desk and let the EPA staff her know 

8 you have arrived so you can get your name on the 

9 list and call your name when it's time for you to 

10 come up and speak.

11 If you are going to speak, you were given 

12 a room letter when you checked in, either an A or 

13 a B. This is Room A. Room B is around the 

14 corner and down the hall a little ways. So 

15 please make sure you're in the correct room.

16 If you're not speaking this afternoon --

17 no, I skipped this one. Sorry.

18 The room's not getting crowded. It was a 

19 little bit crowded this morning, but it's not 

20 crowded this afternoon.

21 So here's how the hearing's going to 

22 work. I will call speakers in pairs. When your 

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1 name is called, please go over to the podiums on 

2 that side of the room. When I call you to speak, 

3 please state your name and spell it out for the 

4 court reporter.

5 Your comments will be transcribed and 

6 included in the record of comments in the 

7 proposed rule.

8 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

9 give comments. We actually have a light set up 

10 here that Paula will turn on. It will start out 

11 as green. When it does flash onto yellow, that 

12 means you have one minute remaining. And then 

13 when it turns to red, that's a signal to please 

14 wrap up your testimony.

15 After -- it will -- when it does get red, 

16 it will start beeping, and it will indicate 

17 you've actually had your five minutes and it's 

18 time to stop speaking.

19 If you're the first speaker at the 

20 podium, please remain until the second speaker 

21 has spoken and completed their testimony. And 

22 then we'll move people in and out in pairs.

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1 You do need to turn on the speaker. 

2 There's a top button, so when you push that, 

3 there's a little red light that will come on the 

4 microphone, and that will indicate the actual --

5 the microphone is on. And when you're not 

6 speaking, if you would please turn that button 

7 off.

8 If you brought a written copy of your 

9 testimony, you can give that to the staff where 

10 you registered at the registration desk before 

11 you leave today, especially if you don't have an 

12 opportunity to finish completing your entire 

13 testimony orally.

14 Again, if you have any additional 

15 comments, you can submit those in writing. 

16 Please be assured that EPA gives just as much 

17 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

18 as we do comments that we received in these 

19 public hearings. So if you have more you'd like 

20 to say, please submit it.

21 There is plenty of time to get comments 

22 in and there are comment cards available at the 

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1 registration desk. The proposed rules will be 

2 open for public comment until October 16th of 

3 2014.

4 We will be putting any written comments 

5 submitted today on the official docket for the 

6 proposed rule, and there's instructions for 

7 submitting your comments in other ways that are 

8 available at the materials table near the 

9 registration desk.

10 We are scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

11 tonight, depending on the interest, and we've had 

12 some cancellations and people not showing up for 

13 some of the morning sessions. So I guess we'll 

14 just see what happens as time goes on -- how many 

15 speakers we do end up having.

16 If you do have any questions during the 

17 day, there are staff -- EPA staff in the hallway 

18 and then there's staff at the registration desk 

19 that are there to try to help you. Okay?

20 Finally, I ask each of you to please be 

21 respectful to everyone who speaks today. We have 

22 people with a wide variety of views in the 

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1 audience, and we want to be able to hear from all 

2 of them.

3 So, we can do that and be fair to 

4 everybody. We ask that everyone listen quietly. 

5 Even applause can slow things down, and we want 

6 to hear from everyone that has signed up to 

7 speak.

8 Thank you again for taking the time to 

9 share your comments on the proposed rule. Let's 

10 go ahead and get started.

11 So the first two speakers, David Justice, 

12 Kyla Maki, if you would -- I'm going to have a 

13 Jonathan Cone and a Susan Seekford.

14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Which one of you 

15 would like to go first?

16 MS. : I'll go.

17 MS. MORALES: Again, please state your 

18 name.

19 MS. SEEKFORD: I press this button here?

20 MS. MORALES: Yes. And then state your 

21 name for the court reporter.

22 MS. SEEKFORD: My name is Susan Seekford. 

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1 What else do I have to say? Just start?

2 MS. MORALES: Please.

3 MS. SEEKFORD : I want to thank President 

4 Obama for recognizing the urgency of climate 

5 change and for taking steps within the executive 

6 branch's power to begin to limit the CO2 

7 emissions from existing power plants with a goal 

8 of reducing these emissions to 30 percent below 

9 the 2005 emissions by the year 2030.

10 Since the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled 

11 that the EPA derives its rights to control carbon 

12 emissions from the Clean Air Act, it is fitting 

13 that the EPA should establish the rules being 

14 discussed today, and I strongly support these 

15 rules.

16 It should be noted that emissions from 

17 power plants represent about one-third of the CO2 

18 emissions in our country. The proposed 

19 regulations do not address transportation, 

20 residential, commercial, agricultural, or 

21 industrial emissions, so these standards should 

22 be seen as a minimal good start.

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1 Also, according to most accounts we have 

2 already dropped our power plants' emissions by 15 

3 percent since 2005, and we will have about 15 

4 years to drop by another 15 percent, so we are 

5 well on our way to reaching this goal.

6 The EPA proposes to give states choice on 

7 how to meet the standards, and states can reduce 

8 emissions at the power plants or through offsets 

9 that are outside the fence of the power plant but 

10 within the state.

11 So, among economists a carbon tax is 

12 widely accepted as the most economically 

13 efficient and cost effective way to reduce CO2 

14 emissions. Though directed at reducing CO2 

15 emissions, carbon taxes can also help states 

16 reduce other fossil fuel by-products, including 

17 particulates, mercury, and NOx and SOx emissions.

18 Detractors who argue against a carbon tax 

19 say it will kill jobs, drag down the economy, and 

20 burden families with higher energy bills; but a 

21 well-designed carbon tax that recycles revenue 

22 back to households and into the economy would 

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1 protect families from rising costs and actually 

2 add jobs.

3 A recent study by Regional Economic 

4 Models, Inc., known as REMI, found a carbon tax 

5 in California even at very high levels would 

6 increase GDP and add hundreds of thousands of 

7 jobs provided the revenue is returned to the 

8 public either as tax cuts or as direct payments.

9 This study can be found at 

10 etr.us.org/remi-studies.

11 REMI also just released a 20-year 

12 analysis of the impacts of a gradually increasing 

13 national revenue neutral carbon tax, and that 

14 study showed that under such a plan the U.S. 

15 would reduce CO2 emissions to 50 percent of 1990 

16 levels while growing the U.S. economy by $1.375 

17 trillion and adding 2.8 million jobs. Real 

18 income will increase, and premature deaths will 

19 decrease by 227,000. This study can be found at 

20 citizensclimatelobby.org.

21 I want to add that Regional Economic 

22 Models, Inc., is a highly regarded non-partisan 

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1 consulting organization that has been in business 

2 for 30 years. Their clients include 47 state 

3 governments, cities, towns, Fortune 500 

4 companies, and organizations such as the American 

5 Gas Association, the Nuclear Energy Institute, 

6 and Pricewaterhouse, to name just a few. They 

7 approached the study from an economic point of 

8 view and they had no preconceived agenda on how 

9 it would turn out.

10 The experience in British Columbia, 

11 Canada, is a real life example of how a revenue 

12 neutral carbon tax has worked. In 2008 British 

13 Columbia passed a gradually increasing revenue 

14 neutral carbon tax; and their experience shows 

15 that a sub national jurisdiction can 

16 significantly reduce CO2 emissions while 

17 strengthening its economy. So, for the report in 

18 the first four years of that program you can go 

19 to sustainableprosperity.ca.

20 As you determine the options that states 

21 will have to be in compliance with EPA 

22 regulations, I request that you consider the 

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1 following: A carbon tax should be clearly 

2 specified in the final rule as a viable means of 

3 compliance. You should include clear guidance on 

4 the administration, implementation, price, and 

5 escalation rate for a tax that would satisfy the 

6 requirements of EPA's new rule.

7 States should have as many options 

8 available to them as possible as long as they are 

9 effective in reducing carbon emissions. A carbon 

10 tax would be highly effective and easy to 

11 administer. If states choose to make such a 

12 carbon tax revenue neutral, it will also 

13 strengthen their economies. 

14 On behalf of our children, grandchildren 

15 and future generations, thank you for taking a 

16 step to address the process of global warming, 

17 the most urgent challenge of our lifetime.

18 MS. MORALES: Thank you. You will have 

19 to turn your speaker off. Thank you.

20 MS. MAKI: Good afternoon. My name is 

21 Kyla Maki, last name is spelled M-A-K-I. I'm 

22 with the Montana Environmental Information Center 

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1 in Helena, Montana.

2 First of all I wanted to commend the EPA 

3 for moving forward on carbon pollution standards 

4 for existing power plants. The Clean Power Plan 

5 is a monumental and critical action to address 

6 climate change, protect public health, and 

7 improve our economy. EPA's proposed standards 

8 are a good start, but we need to ensure that they 

9 are better than business a usual and achieve 

10 meaningful reductions in the future.

11 Specifically for the State of Montana 

12 that means increasing Montana's proposed emission 

13 reduction targets that are currently at 21 

14 percent to higher goals. The emission reduction 

15 target for Montana should be based on renewable 

16 energy potential, not our current renewable 

17 energy standard.

18 Energy efficiency targets should also be 

19 based on our potential for energy efficiency 

20 opportunities in Montana, not the conservative 

21 assumptions that are currently in the draft plan.

22 Montana's emission performance target is 

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1 already relatively low compared to other states. 

2 We have the second lowest emission target after 

3 North Dakota. That's primarily because we don't 

4 have underutilized natural gas combined cycle 

5 facilities or nuclear capacity. We do agree with 

6 that but that we believe that our renewable 

7 energy potential in Montana which ranks second in 

8 the country -- our wind energy potential ranks 

9 second in the country. The plan should be based 

10 on that not on our current removal portfolio 

11 standard or the averaging of the portfolio 

12 standards in our region.

13 Montana's renewal energy standard is 15 

14 percent by 2015. We met that goal two years 

15 early -- or three years early and our -- and have 

16 the potential to exceed that goal. The renewable 

17 portfolio standards should be the floor, not the 

18 ceiling for the numbers in the Clean Power Plan 

19 and our emission reduction targets.

20 Montana is also blessed with significant 

21 potential in energy efficiency. We -- we 

22 currently rank 29th on the ACEEE, American 

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1 Council for an Energy Efficient Economy, in 

2 energy efficiency expenditures and spending and 

3 policies. And so there is a lot of low-hanging 

4 fruit for cost effective energy efficiency.

5 Over the last five years there was an 

6 analysis done on a Northwestern Energy System in 

7 Montana, and they were the largest utility in the 

8 state. And energy efficiency has saved consumers 

9 over $75 million in the state of Montana which is 

10 very significant.

11 Expanding the goals in the carbon -- in 

12 the Clean Power Plan will cost effectively 

13 improve Montana's economy and the nation's 

14 economy. It will also create jobs. 

15 Synapse Energy Economics did a study that 

16 was released last month about the job creation 

17 potential from the Clean Energy sectors in 

18 Montana -- energy efficiency, utility scale 

19 solar, rooftop solar, and wind. That study 

20 estimated that by 2030 Montana could create over 

21 4,000 jobs in each of those sectors combined if 

22 we meet industry estimations for our renewable 

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1 energy potential. Most of that is likely to come 

2 in the form of wind energy. Like I mentioned, we 

3 rank second in wind energy potential, but I 

4 believe 23rd in installed capacity, so there's a 

5 lot of potential there. And EPA's proposed Power 

6 Plan should be based on that potential, not what 

7 we've done in the past.

8 Montana also has a significant solar 

9 resource that yet -- remains yet untapped. And 

10 EPA's Clean Power Plan can jump start investments 

11 in that industry as well. So we support the 

12 start that's EPA's Power Plan has made in jump 

13 starting clean energy, but we believe that it 

14 could aim higher especially for states like 

15 Montana.

16 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Is David 

17 Justice here and Jonathan Cone? 

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think David --

19 David's going to speak next door.

20 MS. MORALES: He is? Okay. Is Jonathan 

21 here?

22 (No response.)

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1 MS. MORALES: How about Lance Wright?

2 Also, Laurrent Meillon?

3 MR. WRIGHT: Hello, my name's Lance 

4 Wright, and I'm also known as the Green Engineer. 

5 I mean no disrespect by the costume. It's part 

6 of who I am. Energy efficiency is the greenest 

7 energy there is. 

8 And we were talking about global impacts 

9 of carbon. I tried to think about what I could 

10 say that would be different other than my 

11 costume, of course. I don't think there's going 

12 to very many folks in costume today, but first 

13 off I want to say that I had once upon a time 

14 served on a town council. And I oftentimes ended 

15 up on the other side of the dais for some of 

16 these interminable hearings that go on and on and 

17 on. And I want to thank you for showing up today 

18 and doing your job as a public servant to listen 

19 to what we, the public, have to say. It's 

20 oftentimes maligned in the popular press, but you 

21 won't see much of that here, I don't believe. We 

22 thank you for that.

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1 And I have a belief that if something 

2 exists that must mean it's possible. And what I 

3 do in my day job is energy efficiency for 

4 buildings. And we can design a building today 

5 using modern building science that will reduce 

6 the energy load by about 90 percent. In other 

7 words, to heat and cool your house, it will take 

8 about 10 percent of what a code-built home would 

9 require. 

10 You couple energy efficiency at various 

11 levels with various resources available to 

12 produce the energy and actually there may not be 

13 any need for regulation of future coal plants 

14 because we probably don't need what the industry 

15 is projecting.

16 And the changes to the regulations to 

17 allow modifications of existing plants, I believe 

18 should be as strong as we can possibly get 

19 through. Fifty percent modification seems to me 

20 to be relatively generous. If they're only doing 

21 30 percent, that would be an improvement, I 

22 believe.

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1 And I back that up by the idea that 

2 energy efficiency changes the game. We don't 

3 have to take past performance as a predictor of 

4 the future. If it exists, it's possible. There 

5 are houses that are built in the United States 

6 and in Europe, buildings that are multifamily 

7 housing, buildings that are apartments -- I mean 

8 office buildings -- they even have schools and 

9 what we better refer to as gymnasiums. We call 

10 it a health spa -- that reduced the energy load 

11 tremendously.

12 So, that is the little nugget of 

13 information that I want to leave today is that we 

14 need to regulate what we are doing now. We need 

15 to seriously -- seriously question what's 

16 projected for the future and remember that all of 

17 us rely on science to the extent that we have to 

18 have a little bit of belief. There is one 

19 argument that, well, I’m not sure this global 

20 warming is true. 

21 Well, if you're generally speaking, the 

22 person saying that isn't an expert. I know when 

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1 I get on an airplane, I am trusting the general 

2 consensus of engineering and aerodynamic science 

3 that that thing is going to do what it's supposed 

4 to do. We don't know that for sure, but we trust 

5 the experts.

6 I'm one that believes that there is 

7 enough of a preponderance of evidence that global 

8 climate change is man caused, that we have to do 

9 this. We have to believe that it's possible.

10 One other analogy is Russian Roulette. 

11 You can load six bullets into the gun, turn the 

12 cylinder and fire it. Traditionally you have one 

13 bullet in there. Well, let's say the doubters 

14 believe that there's one bullet. The folks that 

15 agree with the science say there's five bullets 

16 in there. We don't need to be playing the game, 

17 period. Thank you.

18 MR. MEILLON: Hello, my name is Laurrent 

19 Meillon. Since obtaining an MBA at UW-Madison, 

20 my lifelong focus across industries has been on 

21 new product development. How does a product go 

22 from the anecdotic to general market adoption? 

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1 I'm a junior partner with Capitol Solar 

2 Energy, Harvesting Sunlight for 33 years, served 

3 as a policy committee member for CROSCO, our 

4 renewable energy society, and recently served as 

5 an elected board member, treasurer, and vice6 president for COSEIA, the Colorado Solar Energy 

7 Industry Association, and the co-author of the 

8 Colorado Solar Thermal Roadmap in cooperation 

9 with many parties from NREL to government 

10 academia and industry.

11 I'm here to offer support for the new 

12 regulations internalizing some of the costs of 

13 carbon dioxide. These regulations are the most 

14 meaningful legislative and executive action to 

15 address climate change and limitations and 

16 natural resources in American history, perhaps 

17 since the collapse of Mesa Verde in the State of 

18 Colorado.

19 These regulations begin to address the 

20 external costs of fossil fuels which are right 

21 now socialized at random, escaping the capitalist 

22 system which is the foundation of our economy. 

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1 Throughout the history of the agency industry has 

2 systematically over estimated the financial 

3 consequences of EPA regulations by orders of 

4 magnitude, and they're claims must be dismissed 

5 because they're entirely exaggerated and because 

6 externalizing these costs stand on no other 

7 ground than habits in tunnel vision.

8 In fact, recent New York Time article 

9 showed that the largest fossil fuel corporations 

10 already use an internal cost of carbon above the 

11 proposed EPA regulations, $60 per ton in 

12 ExxonMobil's internal accounting.

13 Internalizing these costs will even the 

14 playing field between renewable energies and 

15 fossil fuels, opening a new era of sustainable 

16 economic growth for our states, country, and 

17 planet.

18 I'm mainly here to ask that methane is 

19 given proper CO2 equivalence and included in your 

20 regulations. There are two fast-growing large 

21 scale energy industries in the U.S. -- fracking 

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1 fourths of the energy used by building as far as 

2 heating and cooling functions. 

3 That would not be addressed with natural 

4 gas while renewable energy efforts have typically 

5 focused on electric generation which only fetches 

6 a quarter of the energy usage of our buildings. 

7 The result price of fracks gas in Colorado is 

8 around 60 cents per therm or roughly two cents 

9 per kilowatt hour.

10 By energy contrast, this is four to five 

11 times cheaper than electricity, propane, 

12 gasoline, or most fuels. Market forces will make 

13 this industry move. Fracks gases and fossil fuel 

14 with its myriad consequences on water, air, 

15 climate change, and health at two cents per 

16 kilowatt hour, there's ample room to internalize 

17 the cost of externalities.

18 Natural gas leaks across its chain of the 

19 extraction, transportation, and distribution. 

20 Fracking encasements leak. Cement encasements 

21 cannot hold methane and other constituents of 

22 natural gas across geological layers over the 

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1 long term without defying the laws of physics. 

2 See Cornell Professor Ingraffea's work on this 

3 topic.

4 The Environmental Defense Fund model 

5 shows that 3.2 percent leak rates of methane make 

6 frack gas as bad as coal when it comes to climate 

7 change, yet recent NOAA and NASA publications and 

8 most peer-reviewed research points to leakage 

9 rates ranging from 4 to 8 percent. Furthermore, 

10 the EDF model is based on a 100-year horizon. 

11 Methane dissipates from the atmosphere 

12 over time and this hundred-year horizon shifts 

13 the math in favor of gas. Yet climate change 

14 science estimates the catastrophic turning point 

15 as 2 degrees Celsius rise is 22 years away, not a 

16 hundred. Twenty-two years is likely the most 

17 urgent horizon. On the hundred year horizon the 

18 count of methane has 25 times more potency than a 

19 pound of CO2 in terms of climate change. On the 

20 20-year horizon it's 72 times more potent and

21 this 22-year horizon, 1.5 to 2 percent leak rates 

22 make fracked gas as bad as coal for climate 

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1 change. Again, currently great measurements were 

2 two to six fold that threshold.

3 In conclusion, because fracked gas is 

4 experiencing enormous growth because fracked gas 

5 is worse than coal for climate change, because 

6 cheap fracked gas can easily internalize the cost 

7 of its externalities, it is key that methane, CO2 

8 equivalents, be properly considered by the EPA 

9 and key, that fracking be included in the 

10 application of the new carbon regulations.

11 I leave you on this quote from Randy 

12 Udall, founder of the Peak Oil Institute and 

13 brother of Senator Mark Udall, "We'll know we are 

14 serious about climate change when we stop talking 

15 about carbon and start talking about methane." 

16 Thank you.

17 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Max Tyler and 

18 Carl Smith, if you're in the audience, please 

19 come up.

20 So you guys, before you speak, please 

21 state your name and then spell them for the 

22 record for the court reporter.

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1 MR. TYLER: All right. My name is Max --

2 MS. MORALES: Turn off the other speaker 

3 and turn yours on. Thank you.

4 MR. TYLER: Thank you. My name is Max 

5 Tyler, M-A-X, T-Y-L-E-R. I am the Chairman of 

6 the House Transportation and Energy Committee for 

7 the State of Colorado, and I'm here testifying in 

8 strong support of the rules that the EPA is 

9 proposing.

10 During the five years I've been in the 

11 legislature, I've focused on reducing carbon 

12 emissions in Colorado. Because of what Colorado 

13 has done over the last 10 years we're well on the 

14 way to meeting the goal that's been set already. 

15 We passed -- we've got several dozen bills, and 

16 we've shown that it can be done.

17 But these are important rules to move 

18 forward on. And though we have started on a good 

19 path in Colorado, I strongly encourage the EPA to 

20 hold to the 2012 baseline, not only because 

21 that's when data is available that you started 

22 gathering on emissions from power plants but 

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1 because ultimately the bar is too low at that 30 

2 percent.

3 By the time we go forward, the process is 

4 proceeding and we've been a dozen years down this 

5 road of knowing we're going to have to limit 

6 emissions on coal fired power plants, and the 

7 private sector has a couple years to get used to 

8 the idea that that's going to happen. They have 

9 20 years, 2020 to 2029 to implement it. You 

10 know, I have a pretty darn good appreciation for 

11 the private sector that they can accomplish this 

12 with little effect. And by the time we get to 

13 2020, by the time we get to 2029 we will know 

14 very clearly that the bar has been set too low.

15 The climate is changing. The climate is 

16 changing because of anthropogenic changes because 

17 of what we're doing by putting carbon in the air, 

18 and the results are becoming more and more 

19 obvious. We're going to have to take bigger 

20 steps down the road.

21 You know, it's an insidious kind of a 

22 problem. I think you may have heard from the 

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1 folks from Craig, Colorado. There's a power 

2 plant up there. The skies are clear in Craig, 

3 Colorado. There doesn't seem to be any pollution 

4 in Craig, Colorado, but that power plant up there 

5 pumps out more carbon pollution than any other 

6 stationary source in the State of Colorado by a 

7 large margin. 

8 That carbon up there that's going into 

9 the atmosphere is polluting our entire 

10 environment and changing what we have here in 

11 Colorado in ways that are just becoming apparent. 

12 More drought, more fires, more floods, and it's 

13 not going to get better until we start ramping 

14 back putting that much carbon into the air.

15 I want to point out that the clear 

16 mission of power companies, coal companies, 

17 mining companies is to maximize the rate of 

18 return for their shareholders. That's a 

19 legitimate mission for them. It is not a mission 

20 for us. It is not your mission as the 

21 Environmental Protection Agency. It is not the 

22 mission of elected officials such as myself. We 

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1 hold the future of our community and children in 

2 trust.

3 The cost of continuing to pump CO2 into 

4 the atmosphere -- the cost of continuing our 

5 carbon pollution is appalling. It's 

6 astronomical, and it's catastrophic. We need to 

7 stop destroying the environment that has been 

8 keeping us alive, keeping our civilization going 

9 for so long now. We are changing the climate of 

10 this planet, and we have to start doing more to 

11 back this down and to maintain what we know as a 

12 legitimate civilization.

13 We can do it. We've done it in Colorado 

14 to a great degree, and we've done it in a way 

15 that is much more cost effective than was 

16 anticipated. There are outlandish cost estimates 

17 for what it costs to cut carbon. There's real 

18 world examples every single year of the cost of 

19 not cutting carbon. And that's what we have to 

20 look at. That's what we have to deal with.

21 In conclusion, these are good rules. 

22 They're reasonable, and they have the benefit of 

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1 being able to perhaps improve the economy and 

2 over the long term, they're definitely going to 

3 be improving the economy rather than hurting it. 

4 I encourage you to stick with the rules; stick 

5 with the 2012 date. 

6 Private sector is pretty darn creative. 

7 They can do it. They can pull it off, and they 

8 can save the -- they can save for our children 

9 and our grandchildren the kind of civilization 

10 and the kind of earth that we have today that we 

11 can live in productively. Please hold to those 

12 rules. Thank you.

13 MS. MORALES: Please get your speaker. 

14 And you'll have to turn that one off. Thank you.

15 MR. SMITH: Hello, my name is Carl Smith, 

16 C-A-R-L, S-M-I-T-H. I’m the Colorado Legislative 

17 Director and on behalf of the Smart Union of 

18 Sebenar Rail and Transportation Union of the 

19 Transportation Division. I represent 4,000 

20 active and retired railroad employees here in the 

21 State of Colorado.

22 Why do railroaders care? Almost 40 

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1 percent of all freight railroad cars in America 

2 are coal cars. Coal has provided the revenues 

3 needed to build and rebuild America freight 

4 railroads. Coal revenues continue to provide the 

5 money necessary to expand and maintain our 

6 railroad infrastructure in America. 

7 Railroads will spend about $25 billion in 

8 2014 to maintain and expand our railroad 

9 infrastructure and to her about 14,000 employees. 

10 Twenty-five percent of the freight rail industry 

11 revenues come from shipping the coal. Twenty 

12 percent of all freight rail jobs involve hauling 

13 coal.

14 And we're here today because our members 

15 are concerned about the loss of their jobs due to 

16 the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. EPA reports 

17 that the reduction of CO2 emissions under the 

18 Clean Power Plan is equivalent to 30 percent cut 

19 over 2005 emissions. However, EPA proposal gives 

20 no credit to states that already have reduced CO2 

21 emissions due to market driven forces such as 

22 increased natural gas use, the retirement of 

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1 older coal generating plants, and construction of 

2 new nuclear generation.

3 Since 2005 CO2 emissions from all fossil 

4 fueled plants have decreased by 13 percent. Many 

5 states highly dependent on coal-based generation 

6 have already achieved significant emission 

7 reductions but still face additional burden of 

8 further reducing their CO2 -- CO2 emissions on 

9 the short timetable set by the EPA proposed rule.

10 We recognize that states were on 

11 flexibility in developing the measures to which 

12 to achieve the CO2 emissions reduction goals 

13 called for by the Clean Power Plan. However, 

14 stringency of the stated reduction goals will 

15 nonetheless have the effect of dictating for the 

16 first time how states regulate their generation 

17 and use of energy.

18 EPA projects that the proposed CO2 

19 reductions would reduce U.S. coal production for 

20 electric generation by 35 percent from 2009 

21 levels by the year 2020 with a comparable 

22 reduction of coal based electric generation.

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1 Even larger regional coal production 

2 reductions are projected by 2020 for Appalachia 

3 and the west. EPA also projects that the rule 

4 will cause loss of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal 

5 generating capacity by 2020. These retirements 

6 are in addition to the 92 gigawatts of coal 

7 capacity that EPA is already projecting will shut 

8 down between 2012 and 2020 in large part to 

9 compliance with 2012 mercury and air toxic rules.

10 We believe that losing around 130 

11 gigawatts of base load coal capacity nearly 40 

12 percent of the nation's coal generation fleet in 

13 2012 raises serious concerns for the future 

14 reliability of our electric power supplies.

15 Our reliability concerns would no doubt 

16 become more urgent as existing base load nuclear 

17 units begin to retire upon the expiration of 

18 their already extended NRC operating licenses.

19 Our preliminary estimates of the job 

20 impacts of EPA proposed Clean Power Rule indicate 

21 a potential loss of 52,000 permanent direct jobs 

22 by 2020 in the utility, rail, and coal sectors 

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1 due to power plant retirements and the loss of 

2 167,000 total direct and indirect jobs. 

3 These direct jobs are all highly skilled, 

4 highly paid jobs typically in rural communities 

5 without opportunities for comparable employment. 

6 These impacts do not consider any of the job 

7 losses associated with the closure of plants due 

8 to the MATS Rule and other factors.

9 EPA proposed increasing dispatched 

10 natural gas combined cycle units in addition to 

11 the 40 gigawatts of natural gas combined cycle 

12 capacity that EPA projects to come on line 

13 between 2020 and 2030 will lead to significant 

14 increase in natural gas prices as well as EPA's 

15 projection.

16 In closing, this is a large impact on 

17 rural Colorado. I'm a rower brakeman. I'm a 

18 rower conductor. My coworkers, my friends, we 

19 all work on the railroad. We pay in to railroad 

20 retirement. This impacts our jobs. Thank you.

21 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Alex Blackmer? 

22 And then Jonathan Cone, is he back in the room?

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1 John Lauer? 

2 Okay. And only one microphone can be on 

3 at a time, so you'll have to turn one off.

4 MR. BLACKMER: My name is Alex Blackmer.

5 MS. MORALES: Please --

6 MR. BLACKMER: Oh, I'm sorry. Want me to 

7 do it over?

8 MS. MORALES: No, there you go. Thank 

9 you.

10 MR. BLACKMER: Okay. Here we go.

11 My name is Alex Blackmer, A-L-E-X, 

12 B-L-A-C-K-M-E-R, and I am the President of the 

13 Colorado Renewable Energy Society.

14 I want to thank you all for coming to 

15 Colorado to hear our concerns. And I would also 

16 like to thank the EPA for taking this small but 

17 important, step towards regulating carbon in our 

18 country. I say small because it is only the very 

19 beginning of what is needed to prevent our planet 

20 from being overwhelmed by the impacts of global 

21 climate change caused by our uninhibited 

22 combustion of fossil fuels. And I say important 

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1 because it shows leadership which in the past has 

2 been lacking nationally both in facing the issue 

3 of human-caused climate change and in acting to 

4 mitigate its effect.

5 While this is by no means a perfect 

6 proposal, it is a positive step towards reining 

7 our species' inclination to soil the nest in 

8 which we've been raised.

9 I would hold that contrary to what some 

10 of my colleagues in the electric generation 

11 industry might believe, this is a very moderate 

12 proposal which at best represents a baby step 

13 towards what the future of carbon regulation will 

14 look like. 

15 In fact, much of the 30 percent reduction 

16 in carbon produced by electrical generation from 

17 2005 levels which these rules mandate has already 

18 been achieved by many states. According to the 

19 EPA's own documentation a combination of energy 

20 efficiency, renewable energy, and gas power plant 

21 technology has already achieved a 13 percent 

22 reduction in 2005 levels in current electrical 

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1 based carbon emissions.

2 This brings us nearly half of the way to 

3 where these proposed regulations will take us. I 

4 believe that we can far out script the EPA goals 

5 in this proposal much as many states, including 

6 Colorado, continue to surpass the goals that they 

7 have outlined in their renewable energy standards 

8 due to the success that the renewable energy and 

9 energy efficiency industries have achieved by 

10 working in partnership with the electrical 

11 generation industries.

12 In the U.S. power plants are the largest 

13 single source of greenhouse gas emissions coming 

14 in at about 83 percent with 30 quarters of that 

15 directly attributable to burning coal. The 

16 average age of their electrical generating fleet 

17 is 42 years old with 11 percent of their plants 

18 being over 60 years old. How many technologies 

19 from 60 or even 40 years ago remain viable today?

20 The coal industry needs to be aware that 

21 their product is in danger of becoming as 

22 obsolete and outdated as the dinosaurs which in 

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1 their dying created the fuel we burn today.

2 The coal industry either needs to find a 

3 way to burn their product without massive amounts 

4 of damaging emissions or work to find 

5 sequestration strategies that will safely 

6 transform their emissions into a non lethal 

7 byproduct.

8 This EPA proposal is asking them to take 

9 a small step in that direction. If the coal 

10 industry cannot develop the technologies to 

11 effectively achieve this, they will and should 

12 become obsolete.

13 Other economic and regulatory forces are 

14 clearly leading in the same direction. Wind 

15 energy is already at a parity or below the cost 

16 of coal in many instances. And solar energy is 

17 well on its way with cost decreases of over 40 

18 percent in the last three years alone.

19 This set of proposed rules from the EPA 

20 echoes the market trend away from the coal 

21 industry as it stands today reinforcing the 

22 global movement away from fossil fuel consumption 

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1 and towards cleaner and more sustainable 

2 renewable energy use.

3 While the EPA rules may be seen by some 

4 as not going far enough and are criticized by 

5 others for having no effect on the vast carbon 

6 emissions of China and India, I believe they are 

7 an important first step domestically and put the 

8 United States of America in a leadership role 

9 globally. 

10 While they are not as demanding as I or 

11 many others would like, they demonstrate a doable 

12 first step at home and show other nations that we 

13 as a country are serious about taking steps to 

14 reduce the carbon emissions. For that reason I 

15 would like to endorse and support any way 

16 possible this small but important step towards 

17 regulating an extremely dangerous pollution. 

18 Thank you.

19 MR. LAUER: Good afternoon. My name is 

20 John Lauer. Lauer is spelled L-A-U-E-R. I'm 

21 here today to voice my support for the proposed 

22 EPA rulemaking action.

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1 I have come to this position in good part 

2 based on my experience as a Wildland Firefighter

3 who specialized in suppression of large flash 

4 fires.

5 Each region of the country experiences 

6 the effects of climate change in different ways. 

7 While coastal areas have experienced an increase 

8 in hurricanes, western states have seen an 

9 increase in wildfire resulting from climate 

10 change.

11 According to the Union of Concerned 

12 Scientists, robust scientific evidence points to 

13 the specific role of climate change in elevating 

14 the wildfire risk in the western United States. 

15 Wildfire has always been a natural and essential 

16 part of the western ecosystem. When fire is 

17 performing its natural function, it is moving at 

18 a low speed and a lower intensity. Think of it 

19 as a friendly decluttering of the forest floor.

20 But climate change has created a new type 

21 of wildfire, fires that grow at an explosive 

22 rate. These fires do not nurture the forest 

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1 floor but rather, they burn with such heat and 

2 intensity that they destroy the soil and 

3 everything in its path. And this is something 

4 I've observed firsthand on numerous occasions.

5 In the Gila National Forest my crew was 

6 first on scene to a remote fire. Within a matter 

7 of days this fire grew from a few acres to over 

8 300,000 and became the largest fire in New Mexico 

9 state's history.

10 Three examples in Colorado of these type 

11 of fires are the Waldo Canyon Fire, the Hyde Park 

12 Fire, and the Black Forest Fire. These fires 

13 burned down hundreds of home in a day of activity 

14 and ultimately required FEMA assistance.

15 When the soil is charred so severely, the 

16 likelihood of flash flooding is greatly 

17 increased. Just last night there was another 

18 flash flood warning issued for the Waldo Canyon 

19 burn area. 

20 And the economic impact of these fires is 

21 also extensive. Putting out a fire is a 

22 dangerous proposition that requires tens of 

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1 thousands of man hours, heavy equipment, and 

2 specialized aircraft. In 2013, according to the 

3 National Interagency Fire Center, the cost for 

4 fire suppression was $1.7 billion.

5 Property damage could be even more 

6 costly. In Colorado alone insured losses on the 

7 Waldo Canyon, Hyde Park, and Black Forest fires 

8 exceeded $855 million. These numbers do not 

9 factor into account the emotional toll of losing 

10 a home where one raised a family, and nor do they 

11 factor into account those who lose their lives 

12 fleeing the fires and fighting those fires.

13 Harvard scientists are predicting that 

14 because of climate change by 2050 fires will be 

15 three times as likely to grow from a small fire 

16 into a big fire; the amount of smoke in the air 

17 will greatly increase; and the land charred by 

18 fires will double.

19 These proposed EPA regulations reduce 

20 carbon emissions and, therefore, decrease the 

21 severity of a smoky and dangerous future. 

22 But there is no need to be all doom and 

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1 gloom about the future either. There is 

2 remarkable opportunity for innovation and 

3 employment in a new low carbon economy. These 

4 rules and indeed any action which limits the 

5 amount of admissible carbon emissions will 

6 necessarily create strong economic incentives to 

7 develop new energy solutions.

8 It needs to be remembered, however, that 

9 in this transition to a low carbon economy the 

10 government must do everything it can to ease the 

11 transition for those who earn a living by working 

12 in the coal industry. These are good men and 

13 women who work a hard job, and their work has 

14 kept us warm in the winter and cool in the 

15 summer. And they ought to be fully supported as 

16 the country transitions to new sustainable modes 

17 of production.

18 Thus, in the west I can envision two 

19 futures: one full of smoke and the other full of 

20 innovation. I want to see a future full of 

21 innovation, and that is why I'm supporting these 

22 EPA rules. Thank you.

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1 MS. MORALES: Thanks to both of you.

2 Next we have Matt Nykiel and Cindy Lay.

3 MR. NYKIEL: Good afternoon. My name is 

4 Matthew Nykiel, N-Y-K-I-E-L. As a former 

5 Wildland Firefighter and as a current student at 

6 the University of Colorado Law School, I would 

7 like to voice my support of EPA addressing 

8 climate change through this proposed rule.

9 In light of Congress' inability to just 

10 address this problem EPA's initiative takes us a 

11 step in the right direction towards reducing 

12 carbon emissions; and it also serves to call the 

13 general public's attention to the issue of 

14 climate change.

15 I empathize with the individuals and 

16 families who will struggle with the effects this 

17 regulation will have on the coal industry. And I 

18 hope that as this rule begins to shut the door on 

19 coal it will also open doors for alternative 

20 forms of electricity generation and conservation 

21 which will hopefully create new jobs and 

22 opportunities that are accessible to those who 

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1 will be impacted by this rule.

2 While it is important for EPA to continue 

3 to show empathy and care toward individuals and 

4 families affected by this rule, it is also 

5 important that EPA help the public understand 

6 that by regulating carbon dioxide emissions EPA 

7 is not acting unfairly toward the coal industry. 

8 Rather, the proposed rule addresses the failure 

9 of the market to internalize all the costs of the 

10 combustion of coal which includes carbon 

11 dioxide's heat trapping effects.

12 The proposed rule may not perfectly 

13 reduce global carbon dioxide emissions but it 

14 nonetheless sets an important precedent both 

15 nationally and internationally.

16 I appreciate it, and thank you for the 

17 opportunity to comment.

18 MS. MORALES: Thank you.

19 MS. LAY: Hi, my name is Cindy, 

20 C-I-N-D-Y, L-A-Y, Lay. I'm a native of this 

21 beautiful state. I’m a wife, a mother, and a 

22 retired health care professional. Since my 

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1 retirement I've become very active in my 

2 community working as a volunteer to support those 

3 causes I embrace and to propound those ideas and 

4 actions that I hope will bring about the change I 

5 seek.

6 Colorado is known for its many outdoor 

7 activities. Snowing -- snowboarding, skiing, 

8 rafting, camping, biking, and hiking. These 

9 outdoor activities are being jeopardized by less 

10 snowfall, hotter summers, wildfires and floods, 

11 and more than 97 percent of scientists agree and 

12 -- it's largely due to climate change caused by 

13 them.

14 Early in the 20th century consumption and 

15 asthma victims were sent to Colorado for the cure 

16 because of our altitude and clean air. The 

17 altitude requires we breathe deeper which is 

18 beneficial to those with lung disease -- by 

19 expanding their lungs. We can no longer claim 

20 that distinction.

21 Colorado's voters and legislators have 

22 done more than most states to limit carbon 

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1 emission. In 2004 Colorado voters adopted 

2 Amendment 37 establishing the country's first 

3 citizen initiative renewable energy standard 

4 requiring the largest utilities in the state to 

5 obtain 10 percent of their electric energy from 

6 clean, renewable resources by 2015. 

7 With bipartisan majorities in 2007 and 

8 renewable energy standards to require the largest 

9 utilities in the state to achieve a 30 percent 

10 renewable energy standard by 2020 they are on 

11 track to meet or exceed the standards.

12 Colorado's energy efficiency resource 

13 standard implemented by the state's investor14 owned utilities in 2007 has reduced demand for 

15 electrical power and saved customers hundreds of 

16 millions of dollars.

17 In its first five years the program saved 

18 businesses and households more than $600 million 

19 and has reduced annual electric usage in Colorado 

20 by the amount typically used by 100,000 

21 households.

22 Colorado's legislators passed the Clean 

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1 Air, Clean Jobs Act in 2010. The resulting 

2 transition to natural gas and other low emitting 

3 resources by our state's largest investor-owned 

4 utility has already led to dramatic multi 

5 pollutant emission reductions. And yet still air 

6 pollution in Colorado from Colorado's coal fired 

7 power plants contributes to 53 deaths, 81 heart 

8 attacks, over 1,000 asthma attacks, and over $400 

9 million in health care costs every year.

10 This not only affects our economy, it is 

11 taking away our legacy and identity as an outdoor 

12 lovers' mecca.

13 After reading tons of information about 

14 climate change and man's contribution to it, I 

15 realize Colorado is one of only a few states that 

16 have taken even the first baby steps toward 

17 dealing concretely with this problem. What I 

18 have been reading is based on scientific 

19 observation and analysis by unbiased experts who 

20 have no agenda other than to ring the warning 

21 bells about the alarming data they have been 

22 collecting. So I'm alarmed because they are 

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1 alarmed. How could I not be?

2 Are they just messing with us or are they 

3 onto something? I think you know the answer to 

4 that question.

5 So, the only sensible and reasonable 

6 result of my anxiety is to walk upright against 

7 the winds of self-interest coming from the fossil 

8 fuel industry and its science-deny-er supporters. 

9 It is time for action to do whatever we can to 

10 mitigate the rate and impact of climate change.

11 The EPA's Clean Power Plan is a step we 

12 must take. As a volunteer community organizer, 

13 I've been astounded by the power of ordinary 

14 people who care about our community, our country, 

15 and our world. Their power is subtle, deep 

16 seated, unrelenting, and extremely effective when 

17 fed by truth and by the facts.

18 People are good. People care. People 

19 act very effectively when properly organized and 

20 informed as evidenced by the steps Coloradans 

21 have taken to affect meaningful change --

22 allaying fears and emboldened hope regarding the 

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1 unprecedented challenge. 

2 So let's do everything we can to support 

3 this very important Clean Power Plan, but let's 

4 do a better job of telling the story and 

5 organizing our friends and neighbors to the cost. 

6 Our history is replete --

7 (Buzzer sounded.)

8 MS. LAY: -- with examples of truly 

9 enormous endeavors and accomplishments, all 

10 achieved when we finally faced the facts and did 

11 what we had to do. So let's continue to raise 

12 our voices. Speak truth to power at every turn 

13 and compassionately but persistently inform and 

14 recruit our fellow citizens to the cause. We 

15 must face our world as it is not as we wish it 

16 would be. Let's turn those baby steps into giant 

17 steps to save our country and our world. Thank 

18 you.

19 MS. MORALES: Thank you, both of you.

20 John McAllister? Is Jonathan Cone in the 

21 room?

22 (No response.)

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1 MS. MORALES: Okay. How about Lili

2 Francklyn? You guys decide who's starting. It 

3 doesn't matter to us.

4 MS. FRANCKLYN: You may go first.

5 MR. MCALLISTER: Okay. Is this live?

6 MS. MORALES: Push the button.

7 MR. MCALLISTER: There we go. Thank you.

8 I am John McAllister. That's 

9 M-C-A-L-L-I-S-T-E-R. I'm with the Energy Control 

10 and Nocterra Company. We do facility design, and 

11 construction, and renovation.

12 I am here to voice my support for the

13 regulations as a good start on addressing both 

14 carbon and the beginnings of methane emissions. 

15 I support the flexibility that's been built into 

16 the state implementation plans. I think that's a 

17 very good start because it's going to be very 

18 different for different regions of the country.

19 I think it's very important that this is 

20 a very strong statement in addressing air 

21 pollution and the climate impacts thereof, 

22 including visibility and clean sky degradation. 

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1 We -- I support a mix of generation, and 

2 I think it's important that we can see that 

3 Colorado and other areas have already 

4 demonstrated that with a good mix of legislation 

5 and market-based forces with our investor-owned 

6 utilities that we've incorporated a substantial 

7 amount of renewable energy efficiency without the 

8 negative impacts on utility rates that many 

9 people have forecast. They're actually lower 

10 than many other places in the country.

11 New England is another area where they've 

12 demonstrated that this is a viable approach. I 

13 want to look back to the early '90's when the EPA 

14 and Congress got together to regulate 

15 chlorofluorocarbons, and we did a type of a cap 

16 and trade thing, and that worked well with it --

17 and again, without the dire rate consequences 

18 that were forecast.

19 I support the idea again that there will 

20 be numerous approaches to generating and --

21 generating the electricity that we need, 

22 including whatever growth is required, and also 

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1 addressing that with energy efficiency and demand 

2 side management resources.

3 There will be good paying jobs in 

4 addressing the energy efficiency aspects which 

5 this country has barely -- barely started. The 

6 -- Europe and many other places are way ahead of 

7 us there. I've worked in this industry for 

8 almost 40 years, and personally have seen the 

9 amount of viable and cost effective savings there 

10 are in renovating and building proper new 

11 buildings.

12 So I want to just wrap it up by saying 

13 that I do support the implementation of these 

14 rules along with their timetable. And I see good 

15 opportunities for job growth and support the 

16 global leadership role that these regulations and 

17 the steps for the rest of the world. Thank you.

18 MS. FRANCKLYN: Good afternoon. My name 

19 is Lili Francklyn. And I am here to support the 

20 proposed regulations. And Francklyn is spelled 

21 F-R-A-N-C-K-L-Y-N.

22 I worked as a science reporter at 

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1 National Public Radio and National Geographic 

2 Television in the 1980's and the 1990's and have 

3 spent my entire life as a renewable energy 

4 advocate and educator on environmental issues. 

5 I'm also the mother of three young adult 

6 children. I appreciate the opportunity to 

7 testify at these hearings and hope that the 

8 public will support the EPA overwhelmingly.

9 In 1982 I reported on a group of papers 

10 presented by James Hansen, Roger Ravelle, and 

11 several other scientists at the American 

12 Association for the Advancement of Science. That 

13 was 32 years ago.

14 Almost all of the predictions -- the 

15 climate change predictions I can recall from that 

16 day, which I remember very clearly, have come 

17 true in the past three decades. During that 30 

18 years I expected a lot more from our government.

19 I'm thrilled to see that President Obama is the 

20 first U.S. President to take significant steps to 

21 address climate change. 

22 I want to touch on two topics briefly 

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1 today. One has to do with the heart and the 

2 other with the head. First the heart -- just 

3 recently my youngest son said to me, Mom, do you 

4 realize we are the first generation to be looking 

5 at the likely collapse of major planetary 

6 ecosystems within our adult lifetimes. What is 

7 the point of looking forward to the future? The 

8 only career that makes any sense is eco9 terrorism. That's my son.

10 But this comment made me feel as though 

11 for the first time that we're really stepping 

12 into the emotional shoes of our children's 

13 generation. But what would it really feel like 

14 to be staring down the barrel of such a tragedy?

15 I still have no clue.

16 I'm not going to apologize for this 

17 dramatic vision of the future because I think we 

18 all know that we can see it now. We have a 

19 billion dead trees in the Rocky mountains, dead 

20 from beetle kill. And this phenomenon is 

21 happening way faster than anyone predicted. But 

22 I don't want to talk about weather. Climate 

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1 change is real.

2 I want to talk about the deceitful and 

3 hypocritical discussion of costs that surrounds 

4 this topic. I'm sick at heart after hearing for 

5 30 years that coal is cheap or that controlling 

6 the worst coal pollution would cost anything. 

7 People say there would be an impact on the cost 

8 of electricity to consumers because of this EPA 

9 plan. We are told there will be costs on jobs or 

10 in tax revenues at some two-bit Colorado county 

11 that has a coal mine or a power plant or that 

12 there will be a cost to the U.S. economy if we 

13 switch to renewable energy.

14 Well here's what I know about cost of

15 coal and coal fire power plants. The electric 

16 bill is the least of our worries. The Harvard 

17 Medical School estimates that coal costs in the 

18 U.S. economy -- coal costs the U.S. economy $150 

19 to $250 billion a year mostly in adverse health 

20 impacts. Even at the lower estimate it would 

21 double the cost of coal if these costs, which are 

22 disingenuously described as hidden, were taken 

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1 into account. These costs are not hidden, and 

2 they're paid by American families who suffer the 

3 consequences.

4 Another cost -- just in the past two 

5 years Colorado alone taxpayers have had to foot 

6 the bill for one and a half billion dollars of 

7 insured losses from wildfires. And that doesn't 

8 even include the cost of fighting these fires.

9 The cost of Colorado's 2013 September 

10 flood is estimated to top two billion. That's 

11 the cost of climate change in only one state.

12 And then there are the ecosystem costs 

13 that could be potentially far more catastrophic 

14 but harder to define. And here are just a few: 

15 The billion trees, what's the cost of that and 

16 who will pay? What is the cost of rapidly 

17 worsening ocean acidification which threatens the 

18 collapse of entire ocean ecosystems? What would 

19 be the cost of losing insects that pollinate our 

20 food crops or the cost of hand pollinating? And 

21 finally, to me one of the saddest statistics of 

22 all and the most frightening, many scientists 

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1 have estimated we will lose between a quarter and 

2 a third of the earth's species by 2050 due to the 

3 combined impact of global warming and habitat 

4 loss. This cost is incalculable.

5 I wish the EPA and those who are aware of 

6 the consequences of climate change would do a 

7 better job at countering utilities and extractive 

8 industries when they frighten the public with 

9 projections of increased energy costs.

10 This fear is absurd when compared with 

11 the real cost of coal. I'm relieved that the 

12 proposed EPA regulations will rectify this 

13 distortion in the marketplace so that it can 

14 begin to reflect the true costs of coal.

15 MS. MORALES: Thank you both. Eric 

16 Larsen and Catherine Carruthers?

17 MR. LARSEN: Ready?

18 MS. MORALES: Yes.

19 MR. LARSEN: My name is Eric Larsen, and 

20 I am a polar explorer, and it's probably a job 

21 that you --

22 MS. MORALES: Would you please spell your 

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1 name for the court reporter?

2 MR. LARSEN: Sorry. E-R-I-C, 

3 L-A-R-S-E-N. I'm a polar explorer, and it's 

4 probably a job that you've never heard about, but 

5 I leave it on my business card because it gets a 

6 lot of interest at dinner parties.

7 Unfortunately, for me, a lot of people 

8 seem to lean away when I tell them my no-shower 

9 record currently stands at 72 days.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. LARSEN: Thanks for laughing, I hope. 

12 Most people are disappointed when they 

13 meet me, but I’m kind of used to it. I'm pretty 

14 much average in every way, shape, and form. 

15 I recently returned from an expedition 

16 called Last North which probably may 

17 realistically be the last expedition of its kind 

18 to the geographic north pole. I've completed 

19 more polar expeditions than any other American in 

20 history. In 2006 I completed the first ever 

21 summer expedition to the North Pole. In 2010 I 

22 completed a world record journey to the North 

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1 Pole, South Pole, and the top of Mount Everest 

2 all in one year. And as I mentioned I recently 

3 just completed the expedition to the North Pole 

4 setting an unsupported speed record.

5 In the past explorers have famously 

6 quipped because it's there, but my expeditions 

7 really stand in stark contrast. I say because 

8 they may not be there in the future.

9 I'm not necessarily charting new 

10 territory. I'm discovering these places as they 

11 exist today. And my experience seeing these 

12 places firsthand, the changes are very dramatic. 

13 In my most recent trip, traveling 480 

14 miles from northern Canada to geographic North 

15 Pole we encountered ice conditions that were more 

16 unusual than any that I've seen in the past 10 

17 years of traveling in the Arctic or Antarctic 

18 regions. The amount of open water, the thinness 

19 of the ice -- these are all more severe than I 

20 could have ever possibly imagined.

21 Most people when they meet me ask why, 

22 how, or of what use is any sort of expedition. 

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1 Again, my expeditions are to connect people to 

2 the last great frozen places on the planet. 

3 These places are changing dramatically. 

4 In one sense these adventures are more 

5 about cataloging things like ice and snow for the 

6 record as museum specimens because they most 

7 likely will not exist as they are in the future.

8 Of what use is any sort of extreme 

9 expedition? In my mind we all need to be 

10 reminded that we have the ability to affect 

11 positive change, that we all have the ability to 

12 make the world a better place. I have a 

13 philosophy that is begin with one step. We all 

14 face seemingly insurmountable challenges in our 

15 life, but if we take those big challenges and 

16 break them up into big -- into smaller, 

17 manageable pieces, we'd be surprised that we --

18 what we can all accomplish.

19 We are all average people, but we all 

20 have the ability to do these amazing things. And 

21 we are all explorers. And our job as explorers 

22 in the 21st century is not to go out and conquer 

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1 places, but it's more to protect them. And 

2 anything that we can do to help reduce carbon 

3 emissions is a good step in that direction. 

4 Thank you.

5 MS. CARRUTHERS: Hi, my name is Cathy 

6 Carruthers, C-A-R-R-U-T-H-E-R-S. I’m the 

7 President of Environmental Tax Reform West, and 

8 I'm a retired energy economist. I want to thank 

9 you for the work you're doing here today and for 

10 the work on the plan.

11 I'm going to discuss the potential for a 

12 carbon tax. We would like the EPA to modify the 

13 definition of emission standard to clearly allow 

14 states to tax GHG emission from power plants and 

15 other sources. The Rule could encourage states 

16 to look at this solution.

17 The current draft rule for power plants 

18 and the original existing implementing rules of 

19 111(d) do not straightforwardly allow states to 

20 adopt carbon excess tax as an emission standard.

21 We value the extensive work and the data 

22 that you have provided as background for the 

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1 decision making and for the regulatory impact 

2 analysis, especially as an economist I know how 

3 much work those are.

4 Given that this rulemaking is data 

5 driven, we are providing some additional data. 

6 This one we did for you guys. It models the 

7 effect of a carbon tax on the United States. And 

8 then we have carbon tax modeling for three 

9 different states that's already been done. We 

10 request that EPA look at the potential cost 

11 savings available to the states if they choose to 

12 use a revenue neutral carbon tax.

13 Each of the four studies was done by 

14 Regional Economic Modeling, Incorporated. REMI 

15 is used by many state governments for analysis of 

16 tax policy.

17 The U.S. study which was done for this 

18 rulemaking relies on Regional Energy Deployment 

19 Systems, REDS, which was developed by NREL, 

20 National Renewable Energy Lab, which the work is 

21 very highly regarded by the power sector.

22 The first study is for nine regions in 

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1 the United States. It reviews the impact of a 

2 tax equal to the social cost of carbon which is 

3 what you guys used in your -- in your energy 

4 analysis. This -- and within your value analysis 

5 benefits.

6 The national study shows that a revenue 

7 neutral tax on carbon dioxides will meet the EPA 

8 goals. Compliance costs are reduced if the 

9 carbon tax is coupled with reductions in 

10 corporate and personal income taxes or with an 

11 increase in their income tax credit.

12 All of the tax rates scenarios from the 

13 social cost of carbon meet the EPA's new carbon 

14 rule goal. Even the low social cost of carbon 

15 scenario creates significant reductions in power 

16 based emissions and meets the requirements of 

17 EPA's new carbon rule by 2027.

18 When the marginal price of carbon dioxide 

19 would be -- under this scenario -- $15.75 per 

20 metric ton in 2012 dollars -- all scenarios reach 

21 the targeted emission reductions earlier than 

22 required in your rule. 

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1 In addition, this solution improves the

2 economy, indicating that the cost forecast in the 

3 RIA may be higher than they need to be. All 

4 scenarios increase National Gross Domestic 

5 Product. These studies show also that in the 

6 state studies each -- each state can benefit from 

7 carbon tax. The tax reductions that fit the 

8 state are different depending on the existing tax 

9 structure.

10 The state studies also show that 

11 environmental tax reform can improve the economic 

12 activity on most states, including employment.

13 In short, a carbon tax with reductions in 

14 other taxes for each state may be a faster, 

15 better, cheaper way to obtain the goals that are 

16 in the draft rule. You may get further than you 

17 expect.

18 Given this set of analyses, we 

19 respectfully request that EPA modify the 

20 definition of the emission standards to clearly 

21 allow for state taxes on GHG emissions. Thank 

22 you.

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1 I'm giving these to the record.

2 MS. MORALES: Thanks to both of you. At 

3 the registration desk.

4 MS. CARRUTHERS: Yes.

5 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Next we have 

6 Harold Bidlack and Rick Gordon.

7 MR. BIDLACK: Well, good afternoon. My 

8 name is Hal Bidlak, B-I-D-L-A-C-K. I’m a Fellow 

9 with the American Security Project. I appear 

10 before you today as a private individual. I'm 

11 not speaking on behalf of my employer or anyone 

12 else other than ASP. 

13 By way of background I was honored to 

14 spend more than 25 years in uniform, retiring 

15 from the United States Air Force as a Lieutenant 

16 Colonel in 2006. I hold a Ph.D. from the 

17 University of Michigan where my research focused 

18 on environmental security. While on temporary 

19 duty at the National Security Council at the 

20 White House I worked on climate change issues, 

21 and in 1997 was the author of the first draft of 

22 the DOD Statement of the Impact of Climate Change 

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1 on National Security, a subject that I also 

2 taught at the Air Force Academy.

3 I began my military career as a missile 

4 launch officer, one of the finger-on-the-button 

5 people up at F. E. Warren Air Force Base in 

6 Wyoming. And my service in the Air Force taught 

7 me we shouldn't wait to address looming threats. 

8 Then our adversaries were the Cold War.

9 Now we face a gauntlet of threats to the 

10 national security ranging from extremists and 

11 non-state actors, the traditional warfare, 

12 dangerous civil wars and beyond. I believe that 

13 climate change represents a clear and present 

14 danger to U.S. national security.

15 For far too long far too many of 

16 America's leaders have failed to address the 

17 challenges of climate change. And this failure 

18 of leadership means that we're behind in 

19 addressing the problem.

20 The military increasingly understands the 

21 true nature of this threat. The DOD in the 2014 

22 Quadrennial Defense Review noted that the direct 

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1 effects of climate change created problems for 

2 military planning, training, and operations.

3 I believe climate change creates three 

4 distinct challenges for the Pentagon. First, 

5 climate change is the global threat multiplier. 

6 That means it will make already-existing problems 

7 worse and more dangerous. The effects of climate 

8 change around the world will cause resources such 

9 as food, water, and energy to become more scarce 

10 as the effects of climate change worsen. And 

11 states will seek to secure resources for their 

12 own populations at the expense of their 

13 neighbors. And while conflict is not inevitable, 

14 it is possible and I think probable.

15 And it's not just the future we're 

16 talking about. Extreme weather events have 

17 already demanded a military response. Over 

18 13,000 soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen 

19 from the USS George Washington's battle group 

20 responded when Typhoon Haiyan made landfall in 

21 the Philippines and they saved lives.

22 Second, climate change will affect 

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1 Homeland Security. And that is a growing 

2 military mission. Where our active duty troops 

3 provide logistical aid, humanitarian relief. law 

4 enforcement support, and other aid to civilian 

5 authorities.

6 In 2012 active duty and National Guard 

7 troops responded to New York and New Jersey after 

8 Hurricane Sandy, and these types of operations 

9 grow as extreme weather events grow across our 

10 country. And again, the associated costs will 

11 continue to rise.

12 And incidentally, you don't have to go to 

13 the Arctic to see the effects of climate change. 

14 It's happening here in Colorado. Climate change 

15 threatens the region's agriculture, water supply, 

16 tourism, timber, bedrocks of our economy. Here 

17 in Colorado warmer winters have already given 

18 invasive species and pests more time to destroy 

19 our forests. Annual precipitation has declined 

20 and become more variable which led to droughts 

21 and wildfires followed by torrents of rain and 

22 massive mudslides.

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1 The Waldo Canyon fire came within a 

2 quarter mile of my home while consuming 346 

3 others. And the next year the Black Forest fire 

4 took 486 more. Both fires claimed lives.

5 And while no single weather event is 

6 proven climate change, the evidence of an unusual 

7 weather event after an unusual weather event adds 

8 up to strong evidence that our climate is 

9 changed.

10 Third, climate change is a threat to our 

11 military bases at home and around the world. The 

12 United States military manages property in all 50 

13 state, 7 U.S. territories, and 40 foreign 

14 countries, comprising almost 300,000 individual 

15 buildings around the globe with a value in excess 

16 of $600 billion.

17 Rising sea levels have already caused 

18 millions of dollars of damage to Naval coastal 

19 installations, but they're not alone. Wildfires 

20 this year at the Marine's Camp Pendleton caused 

21 evacuations while the Army has seen events --

22 extreme rain events I should say, washed out 

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1 areas of the National Training Center at Fort 

2 Irwin, but at -- across the taxpayers the 

3 military is adapting.

4 In summary, reducing greenhouse gases 

5 while implementing measures to adapt to the 

6 effects of climate change is basic risk 

7 management. Military planners routinely operate 

8 under uncertainty and make decisions based on 

9 incomplete information.

10 In 2001 then Vice-President Dick Chaney 

11 said if there's only a one-percent chance of a 

12 terrorist acquiring weapons of mass destruction, 

13 we have to act today. When over 99 percent of 

14 scientific papers are telling us that human 

15 emissions are causing climate change, why is it 

16 that too many leaders dismiss this science?

17 If we fail in addressing climate change, 

18 we know that our military will have to respond to 

19 more disasters more often. Terrorists will have 

20 more recruits to recruit from, and the world will 

21 see more conflict over increasing scarce 

22 resources. Americans will pay the price for 

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1 generations to come.

2 I support the proposed rule, and I thank 

3 you for your time.

4 MR. GORDON: Good afternoon. My name is 

5 Rick Gordon. I have a -- I’m sorry?

6 MS. MORALES: Would you please --

7 MR. GORDON: Rick Gordon. Yes. R-I-C-K, 

8 G-O-R-D-O-N. I have a local independent 

9 insurance agency. In addition I have the honor 

10 of serving as Chairman of the Board of Directors 

11 for Tri-State Generation and Transmission 

12 Association. I appreciate the opportunity to 

13 provide the organization's initial thoughts on 

14 the Environmental Protection Agency's proposed 

15 Clean Power Plan.

16 Tri-State is a not-for-profit wholesale 

17 electric power cooperative providing electric 

18 power to 44 rural electric cooperatives and their 

19 1.5 million members in Colorado, Nebraska, New 

20 Mexico, and Wyoming. We use a diverse mix of 

21 generation sources, including coal, natural gas, 

22 hydro electric, wind, and solar. We also own or 

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1 operate more than 5,200 miles of transmission 

2 lines across our service territory.

3 As a cooperative, all of Tri-State's

4 costs, including complying with regulations like 

5 the Clean Power Plan are paid for by our member 

6 owners. This is an important point because we 

7 serve a wide array of customers in our service 

8 territory, including areas experiencing great 

9 economic expansion through the development of 

10 natural gas. We have some of the most fertile 

11 agricultural land in the country. And we have 

12 some of the poorest communities in rural Colorado 

13 -- or rural America that we serve in our four 

14 states.

15 The cost to comply with these rules which 

16 some have suggested will be in the billions of 

17 dollars will be paid by farmers trying to 

18 irrigate their fields and others in rural America 

19 trying to make end meet. 

20 We are supportive of efforts to address 

21 air quality as evidenced by our recent 

22 announcement to add additional air quality 

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1 controls to our Craig Station Power Plant, but we 

2 have concerns with any proposal that, number one, 

3 does not provide a reasonable timeline to comply 

4 and that has costs of compliance greater than any 

5 environmental benefit.

6 Tri-State's staff is in the process of 

7 analyzing the impacts of the proposal. We are 

8 working closely with our National Organization, 

9 the National Rural Electric Cooperative 

10 Association and other trade groups to leverage 

11 our resources and get the best legal and 

12 technical analysis completed. We are also 

13 working with state agencies in each of the states 

14 that we operate in.

15 Despite dedicating significant staff and 

16 resources to assessing the proposal, at this time 

17 it is impossible to accurately determine the 

18 impact to Tri-State and its members or if the 

19 plan is feasible as proposed.

20 Tri-State's written comments to the EPA 

21 will be much more extensive, but our initial 

22 analysis has raised several concerns that we hope 

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1 to highlight today and address by working with 

2 the EPA state agencies and others in the 

3 industry.

4 Number one, there was no consideration of 

5 our cooperative model. Tri-State and its members 

6 are not for-profit cooperatives. Our member 

7 owners bear all costs of generation and 

8 compliance. EPA provides no past account for 

9 cooperative's ability to recover fast.

10 Cooperatives are also relying on coal 

11 generation which was encouraged through a federal 

12 ban on the use of natural gas for electric 

13 generation from the late 1970's to the mid 

14 1980's, a time when Tri-State was expanding 

15 greatly to meet the needs of our members.

16 Also, a huge source of our emission-free 

17 electricity available to cooperatives, the 

18 Federal Hydro Power, is ignored by the plan. If 

19 large hydro power were considered by the federal 

20 government, Tri-State's power supply would be 20 

21 percent. We already -- we are already 20 percent 

22 non carbon emitting.

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1 Our second concern is EPA may not have 

2 the legal authority. The EPA relies on 

3 interpretation of a rarely used section of the 

4 Clean Air Act, Section 111(d), as the basis to 

5 regulate carbon dioxide across a wide spectrum of 

6 the utility industry. Because the proposal is so 

7 outside historic EPA authority, undoubtedly there 

8 will be legal challenges to all or portions of 

9 the rule and will impact already tight 

10 guidelines.

11 Our third concern is the proposal expands 

12 EPA authority. This rule is ambitious by any 

13 measure and regulates numerous activities that 

14 other federal and state agencies currently have 

15 authority for. Because the rule is not passed by 

16 Congress, a unilateral expansion by the EPA 

17 raises concerns how other federal and state 

18 agencies will respond.

19 Our fourth concern is the state's 

20 processes and resources. Much of the proposed 

21 rule relies on states to develop and implement 

22 state-specific plans and regulate areas that they 

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1 have not in the past. States are not staffed to 

2 implement the rule without additional funding and 

3 authority that would need to be appropriated for 

4 the legislative process.

5 Our fifth concern is there's no 

6 consideration given to transmission and pipeline 

7 construction. The expanded use of natural gas 

8 and renewables prescribed in the proposed rule 

9 would require the addition of thousands of miles 

10 of transmission lines and pipelines which we 

11 question could ever be built.

12 Now, as most utilities in the west are 

13 seeing, Tri-State has found it challenging to 

14 gain approval and construct new transmission 

15 lines. Our experience has been that it can take 

16 8 to 10 years to get a transmission line 

17 permitted. And in some cases we are denied 

18 permits.

19 In conclusion, as I mentioned earlier, 

20 Tri-State will submit written comments on the 

21 plan to further expand on these and other issues. 

22 I thank you very much today for the opportunity 

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1 to be here. Thank you very much.

2 (Buzzer sounded.)

3 MS. MORALES: Thank you both.

4 John Graves and Elizabeth House, please 

5 come to the front. Is Elizabeth House in the 

6 audience?

7 (No response.)

8 MS. MORALES: Okay. Next up, Robert 

9 Howell.

10 MR. GRAVES: Good afternoon. My name is 

11 John Graves, and I am the Environmental Manager 

12 for Minnkota Power Cooperative based in Grand 

13 Forks, North Dakota.

14 MS. MORALES: Would you please spell your 

15 name for the court reporter?

16 MR. GRAVES: J-O-H-N, G-R-A-V-E-S.

17 And I am making these comments on 

18 Minnkota's behalf.

19 Minnkota is a generation and transmission 

20 cooperative owned by 11 member owned distribution 

21 cooperatives. Our members serve more than 

22 118,000 customers in eastern North Dakota and 

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1 northwestern Minnesota.

2 Minnkota also serves as an operating 

3 agent for Northern Municipal Power Agency. 

4 Northern Municipal Power Agency supplies the 

5 electric needs of 12 associated municipals in the 

6 same geographic area as Minnkota.

7 Minnkota operates two coal fired EGUs in 

8 North Dakota and represents Northern Municipal 

9 Power Agency's 30 percent share of another EGU 

10 located in North Dakota.

11 Minnkota has been a leader in renewable 

12 energy. Renewable energy makes up 29 percent of 

13 our generation capacity. The EPA proposed Clean 

14 Power Plan has generated more questions than it 

15 has provided answers for. There are many areas 

16 of concern, but I will only elaborate on a few.

17 First concern is that the EPA has based 

18 the required CO2 reductions upon the reductions 

19 potentially available by the states utilizing 

20 four building blocks. Of those four building 

21 blocks three of them are outside the fence which 

22 may not be permissible under Section 111(d) of 

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1 the Clean Air Act.

2 The guidelines require the states to 

3 submit their SIPs to the EPA by June of 2016, 

4 although a one-year extension is possible. Even 

5 with the extension this time frame is too short. 

6 Most states took three years to prepare a SIP for 

7 the Regional Haze Program which is relatively --

8 a relatively straightforward program compared to 

9 this proposed program. States need more time.

10 The question of what state can take 

11 credit for energy produced by renewable energy is 

12 an extremely important one. Does the state in 

13 which the renewable generation occurs get credit 

14 for that generation, or does the state in which 

15 the utility that receives or purchases the 

16 designated power from that generation get credit 

17 for that generation?

18 The EPA calculated the state limits on 

19 the basis of the state in which the wind 

20 generation was located as getting the credit for 

21 that generation. If a state that receives the 

22 renewable energy gets to claim credit for it, 

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1 they -- then they should also have to claim the 

2 CO2 from fossil fueled units designated to 

3 generate power for that state.

4 We believe the simplest and most workable 

5 scenario is for states to claim all of the 

6 renewable energy within their borders and the CO2 

7 produced within their state regardless of the 

8 ownership of the energy.

9 The EPA calculated CO2 emissions 

10 utilizing a 6 percent heat rate improvement from 

11 coal fired plants. We question whether this is 

12 achievable. The items mentioned in the report on 

13 which this 6 percent number is based have largely 

14 been accomplished by EGUs previously. They have

15 done the steam turbine replacements and other 

16 heat-rate improvement projects. But improvements 

17 that are remaining are those projects that are 

18 not economically justifiable.

19 Minnkota will be submitting these and 

20 additional comments in writing later in the

21 comment period. I thank you for your attention.

22 MS. MORALES: Will you turn off your 

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1 speaker? Thank you.

2 MR. HOWELL: My name is Robert Howell, 

3 spelled H-O-W-E-L-L. I'm a retired physicist and 

4 software engineer from -- and I live in 

5 Bernalillo, New Mexico.

6 I'm here to support the regulations but 

7 with a couple of possible additional points. I 

8 feel that climate change is no longer something 

9 that is mainly going to be experienced by our 

10 children and grandchildren. It is now happening 

11 in our present world. And it is contributing to 

12 the prolonged drought in some places, the extreme 

13 rainfalls in others, and there are more severe 

14 hurricanes like Super Storm Sandy. The sea 

15 levels are rising and the average global 

16 temperatures have gone up by 1.3 degrees Celsius 

17 since about 1900.

18 Fortunately, the proposed regulations on 

19 which we are commenting today would require 30 

20 percent reduction of CO2 emission levels from 

21 those in 2005 by 2030. This is a big step in the 

22 right direction.

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1 What factors about New Mexico are 

2 important and not the same as many other states? 

3 In New Mexico it has strong potential and the use 

4 of solar energy. And New Mexico is experiencing 

5 an extensive drought. Researchers at Sandia 

6 National Laboratory considered impacts of 

7 temperature increases and precipitation declines 

8 on a half dozen industries with the greatest 

9 water consumption such as the large coal fired 

10 power plants in New Mexico's Four Corners area 

11 which uses massive amounts of water.

12 The study found that the economic damage 

13 from increasing water scarcity and cost would be 

14 spread widely throughout the rest of the state's 

15 economy. The study found New Mexico to be among 

16 the U.S. states with the largest percentage 

17 losses in income and employment.

18 One key factor seems to be lacking

19 sufficient coverage in the EPA Clean Power 

20 proposal. Well, there seems to be no attempt in 

21 the proposal to minimize the usage of water and 

22 simultaneously balance the sources of energy 

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1 generation to best reduce CO2. But this could be 

2 done as part of determining the best system for 

3 emissions reduction.

4 In a state like New Mexico it would make 

5 sense to use more renewable zero emission to NOx 

6 contribution and thus less fossil fuel generation 

7 of electricity, thereby reducing the use of 

8 water.

9 PNM, that's the Public Service Company of 

10 New Mexico, to eliminate a Haze condition into 

11 Mexico proposed to eliminate two units of coal 

12 fired plants at the San Juan site. And part of 

13 their proposal offered to have renewables at 12 

14 percent of the electricity generation portfolio; 

15 but a counterproposal written by David Robertson 

16 of the Sierra Club asked PNM to boost renewables 

17 to 30 percent in their plant. His calculations 

18 indicated it would be possible to decrease the 

19 water consumption of the total power plants in 

20 the portfolio below PNM's plan value by 26 

21 percent.

22 Another key factor in determining the 

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1 cost of the power plant is the final requirement 

2 for disposal of coal ash. This is a decision to 

3 be finalized by December 2014.

4 New regulations for coal combustion 

5 residuals could force further new investments in 

6 New Mexico to support coal fired plants. Again, 

7 it makes sense to consider more renewables 

8 replacing coal fire generation to mitigate the 

9 impact of coal ash.

10 What science requires for the human race 

11 to survive is in the right direction as it is 

12 addressed in this Clean Power Plan but not enough 

13 to get us there in the long run.

14 The proposal by the EPA is a good first 

15 step; however, having the Clean Power Plan 

16 address the issue of drought in trying to 

17 mitigate the economic impact by increasing the 

18 percentages of renewables for the state portfolio 

19 should be considered.

20 MS. MORALES: Thanks to both of you. 

21 Would you mind turning off the mike? Thank you.

22 Next up Jodi Jones and a second call for 

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1 Elizabeth House if she's in the audience?

2 (No response.)

3 MS. MORALES: How about James White?

4 MS. JONES: Hello, my name is Jodi Jones. 

5 That's J-O-D-I, J-O-N-E-S. I moved to Colorado a 

6 couple years ago from West Virginia to study 

7 environmental policy. 

8 I am here today because the more I learn 

9 about climate change, the more I realize the 

10 enormity of what is at stake. It is not just 

11 about cutting our carbon emissions. It is much 

12 more than that.

13 It is about protecting the delicate 

14 balance between species to survive and protecting 

15 the natural world for which we are dependent. It 

16 is about reducing pollution related illnesses and 

17 curbing the effects of climate change. This is 

18 about people's lives.

19 As a young girl growing up in West 

20 Virginia I developed a kinship for wild places. 

21 I played in streams; I admired mountains, caught 

22 fireflies, and breathed fresh air. My world was 

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1 pretty simple.

2 When I got older, I realized that 

3 environmental policies had failed to protect the 

4 landscapes I admired, had failed to protect the 

5 streams that I played in, and failed to protect 

6 the air that I breathe.

7 We have a chance to protect our 

8 environment, protect our health, and move forward 

9 to curb the effects of climate disruption. We 

10 have been acting like we have all the time in the 

11 world to act, but we don't have time. We must 

12 transition away from dangerous polluting power 

13 plants and increase our renewable energy 

14 production starting now.

15 You will hear a lot of people tell you 

16 today that this plan will destroy the economy and 

17 kill jobs. In truth this plan will create more 

18 clean energy jobs. It will add more clean jobs 

19 just like the 3,600 solar jobs already here in 

20 Colorado.

21 I believe the cost of inaction is much 

22 greater. We cannot fail to act. It is not even 

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1 about my children or my children's children's 

2 future. Climate change and carbon pollution is 

3 already affecting us now. It's already here.

4 Colorado faces many environmental 

5 challenges from water scarcity and severe 

6 droughts to wildflowers -- wildfires -- all which 

7 will be further exacerbated by a changing climate 

8 caused by carbon emissions yet no protections 

9 currently exist to limit the amount of carbon 

10 that can be released by the largest carbon 

11 polluter, power plants. It is time for our 

12 leaders to demonstrate they care about our future 

13 and support strong carbon pollution protections.

14 I am here today because I believe that we 

15 are at a critical time in our history, a pivotal 

16 point where decisions we make today will 

17 determine the severity of our changing climate. I 

18 believe that we should choose clean air over 

19 dangerous pollution. We should choose clean 

20 renewable energy over dirty and dangerous power 

21 plants.

22 We know the problem before us. We know 

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1 what needs to be done. We need to start that 

2 transition now. Climate change is real. It's 

3 happening, and we are all in this together. What 

4 we do now is deciding what kind of world we are 

5 going to have. We need to support the Clean 

6 Power Plan and ensure a strong standard on carbon 

7 pollution. Thank you.

8 MR. WHITE: Thank you. My name is Jim 

9 White. That's J-I-M, W-H-I-T-E. And I am here 

10 in support of the proposal.

11 I would like to begin by thanking you for 

12 the opportunity to testify today on such a far13 reaching and important matter. I am here today 

14 both as a person of science and a person of faith 

15 testifying on behalf of the Lutheran Advocacy 

16 Ministry - Colorado, a ministry of the 

17 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I am a 

18 full professor at the University of Colorado and 

19 spent my 30-year research career studying past 

20 climates using ice course, the workings of the 

21 world's large ice sheets, and the carbon cycle. 

22 That showed some interesting problems 30 years 

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1 ago.

2 I have offered over 150 peer review 

3 publications, and I am a highly cited author 

4 which is the top one-half of one percent of all 

5 authors in my field. 

6 I have chaired committees for the 

7 National Academy of Sciences as well as Lutheran 

8 Campus Ministry. I am, in short, one of those 

9 annoying climate scientists that have said that 

10 there is a problem that you guys have to solve.

11 Our planet's climate is changing, and 

12 humans are driving those changes by the release 

13 of vast amounts of greenhouse gases to the 

14 atmosphere. The physics behind the link between 

15 greenhouse gases and climate are simple as are 

16 the physics between the links between a warmer 

17 climate and much higher sea levels and a dryer 

18 west to name but two repercussions.

19 We, in the west, will suffer from water 

20 shortages, and we cannot afford that. In the 

21 coming decades and centuries low lying coastal 

22 areas like Miami will have to be abandoned to the 

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1 sea, creating lasting and rather ironic monuments 

2 to our inaction.

3 But at its core climate change is, I 

4 believe, a moral issue. And it is to this that I 

5 wish to speak. The first moral issue is how we 

6 treat our children. We live on a water planet. 

7 And again, simple physics tells us that it will 

8 take decades for the ocean to warm and fully 

9 express the climate that goes with our current 

10 high levels of greenhouse gases. This creates an 

11 intergenerational inequity. 

12 What we do, our children will have to 

13 deal with. And what they do, their children will 

14 have to deal with and so forth. We all say that 

15 we love our kids, but how to we truly show it. 

16 Until one generation can set aside the lure of 

17 short-term gains for the long-term profit of 

18 their children, the cycle will never be broken. 

19 We need to express our love for our children in 

20 the very tangible way that the Clean Power Plan 

21 provides.

22 A second moral issue to consider is the 

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1 disproportional impact that climate has on poorer 

2 people who have less capacity to adapt to issues 

3 such as sea level rise, access to clean water, 

4 access to secure food supplies as well as dealing 

5 with the obvious problems of heat waves and 

6 droughts. How do we, the rich, square this with 

7 our ethical obligation to those in need?

8 Speaking on behalf of myself, I will say 

9 that Christ was clear. Whatever you did not do 

10 for the least of these, you did not do for me. 

11 Our relationship with the planet itself 

12 also clearly presents a moral problem for us. We 

13 are charged with the stewardship of God's 

14 creation and so must always be asking ourselves 

15 are we good stewards. The facts say that while 

16 we try -- thank you EPA -- we come up short. And 

17 we must face those shortcomings.

18 Species extinctions are rising rapidly 

19 around the globe. Every species has its place in 

20 God's beautiful mosaic that we call our 

21 environment. A lost species is lost forever. 

22 And we must be held accountable for every species 

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1 that we lose whether that is by our actions or by 

2 our inactions. If we do not hold ourselves 

3 accountable, I believe God will.

4 The proposed Clean Power Plan will not 

5 fully address the problems that create the moral 

6 struggles we now face, but these regulations are 

7 a start, a start that is achievable and promises 

8 to break the current stranglehold that keeps us 

9 from facing reality as well as our obligations to 

10 our fellow humans as well as the planet.

11 As a final thought, let's consider the 

12 considerable positive benefits of the Clean Power 

13 Plan. By taking action we show love for our 

14 children and grandchildren, care for those in 

15 need, and we care for God's creation that he has 

16 so lovingly provided for us -- not bad outcomes 

17 for doing the right thing. Let's do it. Thank 

18 you.

19 MS. MORALES: Thank you both. 

20 Now Robert Nemanich. And one last offer, 

21 Elizabeth House?

22 MR. NEMANICH: Thank you for the 

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1 opportunity to speak to you regarding the Clean 

2 Power Proposed Rule. My name is Robert Nemanich, 

3 spelled N-E-M-A-N-I-C-H.

4 I am an ordinary citizen, husband 20 

5 years, father of two, and educator in the areas 

6 of science and mathematics as well as educated in 

7 the fields of political science and economics and 

8 have worked in the clinical trials industry, but 

9 I'm no subject matter expert.

10 Briefly, I'm associated with a group 

11 called Southwest Colorado Renewable Society, 

12 originally CRES where I'm involved in seeking the 

13 decommissioning of Colorado Springs' Martin Drake 

14 Power Plant, but I'm not here representing that 

15 or any other organization. I'm only speaking on 

16 my own behalf.

17 The proposed Clean Rule -- Power Rule to 

18 reduce carbon emissions by 30 percent is 

19 welcomed, and I support it. I just want to this 

20 started. And even an ordinary educator, like 

21 myself, doing the math can figure out that it 

22 merely brings pollution tonnage back to the early 

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1 1980's.

2 The Clean Air Task Force published an 

3 extensive study using peer review scientific 

4 methodologies and -- which was accepted by this 

5 and other federal agencies. And it determined 

6 that presently coal fired emissions cause or 

7 contribute to premature deaths of over 13,000 

8 people annually, and estimate that -- and 

9 estimate that the U.S. Societal cost annually in 

10 health care and lost work days due to sicknesses 

11 is over $100 million.

12 Prior to the passage of the Affordable 

13 Care Act otherwise affectionately known as 

14 Obamacare, this loss was primarily the burden of 

15 disadvantaged or risk members, private insurers, 

16 and other entities. But now because of the ACA, 

17 the societal cost is -- is the public's burden 

18 because we are supposed to be carrying the 

19 insurance for everybody.

20 Thus, pollution is now a tangible item, 

21 and it's something that is an economic cost that 

22 should be placed on a generation of any power 

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1 plant.

2 But let's take a look at Colorado Springs 

3 as a specific example. We have a coal fired 

4 clunker located in the middle of part of our 

5 downtown, and the real issue is that this summer 

6 we had a fire, a structural fire that took down 

7 the operation of the plant -- at least two-thirds 

8 of it. They had to raise the rates immediately 

9 by 7 percent.

10 Last year the municipality was approached 

11 with a proposal of wind power that would -- that 

12 would provide one-third of the power at two cents 

13 -- a two-percent increase in rates. They turned 

14 it down.

15 Now the salient point is this: The 

16 leaders of the community were frozen because of 

17 that minute increase that they had to make a 

18 decision on, though they did not have to make a 

19 decision when the plant was closed because they 

20 still had to get power from the open market.

21 Further, we found as we're investigating 

22 the plant that the peak times in which that plant 

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1 is used is in April, May, and October -- at a 

2 time that seasonally has the least amount of 

3 demand. Why? Because the power was being 

4 exported to other states.

5 If you place a rule on the State of 

6 Colorado saying it has to lower its emissions by 

7 30 percent, that kind of business practice cannot 

8 be justifiable.

9 Further, if you place a rule that we 

10 lower emissions by 30 percent, I could do the 

11 simple math and say that I have 15 plants. We 

12 probably have to close three -- three of the 

13 oldest, three of the least productive.

14 Further, to try to get that -- keep that 

15 plant viable, they have to invest now $170 

16 million in scrubbers which even their own 

17 engineers are questioning whether it's going to 

18 meet the standards of the EPA to reach it.

19 So by bringing this rule and forcing the 

20 states to make decisions, they're going to make 

21 decisions where courage, they couldn't. And this 

22 would be good because wind power right now is 

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1 costing about the same as mass coal power. And 

2 here we are in the State of Colorado.

3 I support this plan. I hope you go 

4 forward and I hope you take it to zero emissions 

5 by 2060. Thank you.

6 MS. MORALES: Thank you. So, just a 

7 reminder, if you're interested in presenting 

8 testimony, you do need to register at our 

9 registration desk. So if anybody hasn't done 

10 that at this time or you would like to continue 

11 speaking, you still do need to go back out. 

12 We're trying to do people in order as they've 

13 registered, and so they kind of have a time frame 

14 of when they'd be able to come up here and meet 

15 all your busy lives.

16 So at this point I guess we'll close. 

17 We'll just take a brief recess and see if we get 

18 any more participants that would like to present 

19 testimony. Probably 10 minutes to see where 

20 we're at.

21 (Brief recess.)

22 MS. MORALES: Okay. If everybody would 

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1 please take your seat, we're going to start up 

2 again. We have got some more people who would 

3 like to give testimony.

4 First one up is Peter Fiekowsky and then 

5 Ronnie Cintron-Fink. Is Ronnie in the room --

6 Cintron-Fink?

7 (No response.)

8 MR. FIEKOWSKY: My name is Peter 

9 Fiekowsky, F-I-E-K-O-W-S-K-Y. I'm involved here 

10 with Citizens Climate Lobby. I’m a physicist and 

11 owner of a software company. I live and work in 

12 Los Altos, California, the heart of Silicon 

13 Valley.

14 My message is that EPA should include a 

15 carbon tax as a key method that the states can 

16 use for compliance with the carbon rule. 

17 Specifically, EPA should modify the definition of 

18 emissions standard clearly to allow and encourage

19 state taxes on greenhouse gas emissions.

20 Other speakers have discussed the carbon 

21 tax and how it can be implemented, the benefits 

22 it provides. I will speak about why the time has 

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1 finally come to enable and encourage states to 

2 implement a carbon tax.

3 From the first discussions about global 

4 warming in the 1970's economists, scientists, and 

5 the politicians have unanimously said that the 

6 best solution is a carbon tax. The EPA 

7 regulations we are discussing here are generally 

8 considered to be clever and convoluted ways to 

9 put a price on carbon.

10 If the best method is a carbon tax, then 

11 why is that not included as an option in the 

12 Power Plan? I can't speak for EPA, but I can 

13 report on conversations I've had with IPC 

14 scientists and editorial writers.

15 Although they agree that a carbon tax is 

16 the most efficient and easy to implement 

17 solution, they assume that Washington will never 

18 do the right thing, so they recommend 

19 alternatives. In my -- in my state, California, 

20 that alternative is cap and trade which has 

21 seldom been able to put a significant price on 

22 carbon.

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1 Why do we say that now is the time to 

2 allow and encourage states to implement carbon 

3 taxes? One, over the last year there have been 

4 studies that you've seen for the REMI Studies 

5 showing that revenue neutral carbon tax benefits 

6 states and national economies. Results from 

7 British Columbia's carbon tax corroborates those 

8 studies showing that -- showing the expected 

9 decrease in emissions and increase in jobs.

10 Second, most Californians now prefer 

11 carbon tax to cap and trade. Fifty-eight 

12 percent, 51 percent, according to a PPIC study 

13 that I'll give you that came out just last week.

14 Third, major oil companies such as 

15 ExxonMobil and Shell now say on their websites 

16 that they want a price on carbon, and they prefer 

17 revenue neutral carbon tax when we do that. And 

18 I'll discuss that more in a moment.

19 Finally, comments in opposition to a 

20 revenue neutral carbon tax almost unanimously 

21 site their reason that it will never get passed. 

22 So it's not a functional reason, just a simple 

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1 resignation.

2 So one of the major benefits of a state 

3 carbon tax is that they encourage Congress to 

4 implement a good national carbon tax through the 

5 demands of interstate corporations who want a 

6 uniform and simple rules for doing business.

7 And, of course, you've heard earlier 

8 about the benefits of the national carbon tax, 

9 the 2.2 million new jobs, GDP increase, 13,000 

10 lives saved per year, and, of course, 33 percent 

11 emissions reduction in just 10 years.

12 A revenue neutral carbon tax is the only 

13 proposed emissions solution which provides 

14 significant economic benefits plus emission 

15 reductions beyond the EPA requirements.

16 A second major benefit of a state or 

17 national carbon tax is that predictability. And 

18 this is the reason that Mobil -- ExxonMobil and 

19 Shell want a revenue neutral carbon tax. Prices 

20 that are predictable into the future are major 

21 advantages for business. Predictability allows 

22 businesses and their investors to confidently 

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1 invest in a new future. The pricing uncertainty 

2 from cap and trade discourages long term 

3 investment in clean energy because return on 

4 investment is unpredictable.

5 That unpredictability causes executives 

6 to continually delay innovative investment, 

7 hoping the future will someday be more certain. 

8 And you can see that pattern of delay in new oil 

9 and utility companies over the last 20 years. 

10 They've tried, and they've given up because it's 

11 unpredictable.

12 Now that we have data from British 

13 Columbia, the recent REMI studies, and now that 

14 the media is promoting solution which is good for 

15 the economy and good for the environment the L.A. 

16 Times published editorial pieces on July 14th and 

17 21st promoting the revenue neutral carbon tax. 

18 The Saturday Mercury News, my paper, published an 

19 op ed earlier this month promoting a national 

20 carbon tax. And nationally there have been over 

21 20 op eds and a hundred letters to the editor 

22 promoting this carbon tax each month this year. 

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1 So there's a lot of media in favor of revenue 

2 neutral carbon tax. The tide has turned. It's 

3 time for -- to promote the solution which 

4 everyone agrees is the best solution.

5 So, please make -- well, so the specific 

6 request is include a carbon tax as a method the 

7 states can use for compliance with the carbon 

8 rule. Thank you very much.

9 MS. MORALES: Thank you. We'll have to 

10 turn on your.

11 MS. CITRON-FINK: I have to turn it on?

12 MS. MORALES: Yes. Here you go.

13 MS. CITRON-FINK: Okay. Good afternoon. 

14 My name is Ronnie Citron-Fink. I've traveled 

15 from New York to speak as a parent, a teacher, 

16 and a representative of Moms Clean Air Force, a 

17 community of hundreds and thousands of parents --

18 MS. MORALES: Can you please spell your 

19 name --

20 MS. CITRON-FINK: Oh, the last name?

21 MS. MORALES: -- before you keep going --

22 for the court reporter? Yes.

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1 MS. CITRON-FINK: C-I-T-R-O-N-dash-F, as 

2 in Frank-I-N-K. Sorry about that.

3 I'm a representative of Moms Clean Air 

4 Force, a community of hundreds and thousands of 

5 parents who believe the biggest stakeholders in 

6 the Clean Power Plan are our children.

7 Our members know that if we continue to 

8 allow carbon to be spewed into the air unchecked, 

9 we will be leaving our children an uncertain, 

10 unhealthy, and unsafe future. When I started 

11 with Moms Clean Air Force over three years ago, I 

12 was keenly aware that the Clean Air Act was a 

13 major public health success. Like all parents, I 

14 felt strongly that I would do anything to protect 

15 my family, but I was worried that delving deep 

16 into stacks and stacks of reports, regulations, 

17 and cost analysis associated with childhood 

18 asthma, cancer, and infant mortality would leave 

19 me glazed over and paralyzed with fear. That 

20 Didn't happen.

21 It wasn't the reports and statistics or 

22 even the insane politics that seemed to put 

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1 profits over people that stopped me dead in my 

2 tracks. It was the stories that I heard every 

3 single day from parents with infants, toddlers, 

4 school kids, and teenagers. It was the stories 

5 of moms like Wendy from Indiana who couldn't let 

6 her two year old go out to play because she lives 

7 within a 62-mile radius of 17 coal fired power 

8 plants. Her neighbor's kids have asthma, and she 

9 doesn't want her baby to become another 

10 statistic.

11 I joined Wendy when she visited her 

12 senator in Washington and asked if he would 

13 support common sense standards to limit pollution 

14 from his state's power plants. She asked if he 

15 cared that unlimited pollution was poisoning the 

16 citizens of his state. Wendy was told make no 

17 mistake, the senator cares about coal factory 

18 employees and their families.

19 She turned to me in tears and said this 

20 must be a mistake. Doesn't he have a moral 

21 obligation to protect his state's children? 

22 Doesn't this man have children, grandchildren? 

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1 He does.

2 Now only does unregulated carbon 

3 intensive coal poison the air our families 

4 breathe, there is a clear consensus among 

5 scientists that coal pollution from fossil fuels 

6 is the single largest contributing factor to 

7 climate change, warming out planet, contributing 

8 to extreme weather events, and harming the most 

9 vulnerable citizens -- our children.

10 Climate change is making asthma triggers 

11 worse. Climate -- extreme heat is hard on little 

12 bodies, and the soot and smog pollution like 

13 global warning exasperates and damages developing 

14 lungs and increases respiratory infections.

15 My heart breaks when I listen to parents 

16 like Wendy living in communities that deal daily 

17 with the health effects of burning unregulated 

18 fossil fuels. 

19 And now we have the opportunity to begin 

20 to right this wrong and to avoid this mistake. 

21 Coal is no longer the answer to power our 

22 children's future. To further its use is a big 

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1 mistake. We can stop poisoning people and our 

2 planet with ancient, filthy power without being 

3 left in the dark. And now is the time to begin 

4 the shift to clean renewable energy sources that 

5 save money, employ Americans, and most 

6 importantly protect the health of our precious 

7 children.

8 The EPA's Clean Power Plan is an 

9 important first step in addressing climate change 

10 and its health impacts. Moms Clean Air Force 

11 asks that the EPA strengthen the Clean Power Plan 

12 and finalize this rule that will reduce carbon 

13 dioxide emissions 40 percent below 2005 levels by 

14 2020.

15 Let's set an example for the rest of the 

16 world that we value what is most important -- our 

17 families. And make no mistake, our children are 

18 watching. Thank you.

19 MS. MORALES: Thank you both. Lynn Green 

20 and Josh Valentine? Just turn your mike on, 

21 please.

22 MS. GREENE: It's on?

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1 MS. MORALES: Yes.

2 MS. GREENE: Hi, I am Lynn Greene, 

3 G-R-E-E-N-E, and I thank you very much for coming 

4 to Denver today to listen to our opinions. I'm 

5 both an attorney and I'm the CEO of the Lucky 

6 Corridor project which is a transmission project 

7 that is working to evolve the energy mix at the 

8 Four Corners coal hub to renewable energy and 

9 gas.

10 I think one of the reasons I'm in this 

11 industry and we care about it so much is my 

12 grandfather was a World War I doughboy who built 

13 six coal plants in Kansas. So when I was a 

14 little girl back in 1955 I remember being held up 

15 to look in the portholes at one of the really 

16 large coal plants in Kansas where there were men 

17 in asbestos suits shoveling coal in fire. And it 

18 was fairly terrifying. My grandfather was a 

19 really nice guy but it was a terrifying 

20 experience that almost seemed to me like a great 

21 risk to the people who worked in the coal plants 

22 even though I know there were not that many jobs 

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1 available in those days. And that was literally 

2 a lifetime ago but yet it's just now that those 

3 coal plants are closing which is kind of 

4 astounding.

5 As an attorney I look at other regulated 

6 industries such as the electricity industry is 

7 obviously a highly regulated industry. We 

8 compare it to other regulated industries like 

9 telephone, taxicabs, water industries. All of 

10 the regulated industries essentially enjoy a 

11 proprietary franchise. They have a very strong

12 rate of return. They get a very steady return on 

13 capital because of the public -- they're serving 

14 the public.

15 In any of those industries water, 

16 banking, or any of those industries if we learn 

17 of a threat to public health and safety, the 

18 government steps in and does something about it. 

19 And we would all as citizens be very unhappy if 

20 the government didn't do that.

21 For some reason we think that this is a 

22 very controversial issue to treat the electricity 

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1 industry the same as the other regulated 

2 industries. It seems to be some sort of a hurdle 

3 in the public's mind that we could force a public 

4 health and safety upgrade during the life of a 

5 plant. In fact, to me it's the ordinary course 

6 of business in regulated industries in America 

7 that if you discover a threat to public health 

8 and safety, you do something about it both to 

9 protect the public from the safety issue but also 

10 to mitigate the costs of having a problem in a 

11 regulated industry serving the public.

12 So, you know, a stitch in time saves 

13 nine. If you do something to maintain and 

14 upgrade the plants during their lifetime, then I 

15 think that it -- it could even extend the life of 

16 some plants and reduce the cost to consumers. 

17 And that should be our ultimate concern.

18 So, the life of a power plant is a very

19 profitable life. They depreciate early. Usually 

20 they're -- they enjoy the benefit of accelerated 

21 depreciating so they create tax revenues to the 

22 public, to the government, et cetera, early in 

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1 their life. And then when they get to the stage 

2 where most of our coal fleet is now, they yield 

3 not very much tax revenue.

4 So I believe that by addressing the 

5 carbon issue it is an economic development tool 

6 that we need at this time in our history. It 

7 will lead to economic growth. The -- by building 

8 new -- the new grid -- by building -- by 

9 upgrading the grid, building the power plants, 

10 wind, gas, whatever they might be, you get new 

11 tax revenues, takes some burden off the middle 

12 class, and historically infrastructure 

13 development has caused both indirect and direct

14 economic growth.

15 So I support it. I think that it should 

16 be seen as the ordinary course of business in the 

17 electricity industry as it is in all regulated 

18 industries to support health and safety upgrades. 

19 Thank you.

20 MS. MORALES: If you could turn off your 

21 microphone, then he can turn his on. Thank you.

22 MR. VALENTINE: Hi, how are you? I'm 

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1 Josh Valentine, V-A-L-E-N-T-I-N-E. I'm from 

2 Longmont, Colorado. I am a digital 

3 communications professional, and I work with a 

4 couple of renewable energy clients around the 

5 country. I also volunteer with Clean Energy 

6 Action which is based out of Boulder, and they 

7 rally against clean energy policies and 

8 legislations around the state and then around the 

9 country. And I’m a proud member of the Colorado 

10 Renewable Energy Society.

11 So I hear a lot about children and --

12 when I've been listening to for the past two 

13 hours. And the children, I'm not too worried 

14 about the children because the ones who do make 

15 it out who are not poisoned by our dirty air are 

16 going to laugh at us, and they're going to look 

17 back in about 50 to a hundred year's time if 

18 nothing is done to curb carbon pollution, and 

19 you're going to have a wealth of material in pop 

20 culture and books, and pretty much anything they 

21 -- they do creatively to make fun of what we have 

22 avoided for so long.

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1 And I do want to -- I do have a bone to 

2 pick because of -- a big part of what I do with 

3 renewable energy is communication. And I can 

4 tell that the microphone I'm using is cutting in 

5 and out. And I've noticed that all day, so you 

6 might want to do something about that. 

7 So in terms of communicating, I haven't 

8 heard much about how do we inspire millennials, 

9 people born in the early '80's to the 2000. How 

10 do we inspire them to -- to want to work for 

11 clean energy, to want to make the world a better 

12 place?

13 And I already believe -- and there are 

14 other people like me that the millennial 

15 generation are the change makers. They're the 

16 ones who want to change the world and the first 

17 generation to really do so.

18 So, what message are we sending? What 

19 message is the EPA sending? What message is the 

20 Obama administration sending?

21 On the news one or two weeks ago I saw 

22 Obama on the road eating junk food, eating beef, 

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1 eating chicken. If there are any vegans or 

2 vegetarians in the -- in the room today, some of 

3 us know that beef production uses the most water 

4 of any food production. It also causes tons and 

5 tons of air pollution. 

6 The dairy lobby that contributes to 

7 politicians in Washington. Pizza and cheese is 

8 made very, very cheap in this country. There is 

9 an obesity problem, and that is -- that is pretty 

10 much the American citizens go to food, this 

11 pizza. What is that causing? Obesity. It's all 

12 connected. Our use of water, our use of toxic 

13 water and food production, what we're consuming 

14 as humans.

15 As I was born with -- this goes back to 

16 communication. I was born with a hearing 

17 impairment, so a lot of my inspiration growing up 

18 as a teenager becoming interested in saving the 

19 environment was -- I was inspired by images --

20 images and then ideas.

21 When the Americans for Disabilities Act 

22 was passed, I -- I got several perks from it at 

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1 school. I see this as -- as a similar -- similar 

2 thing. The Clean Power Plan will help every 

3 single human on the planet to breathe, to live is 

4 all connected. It all connects us to the natural 

5 world which we are -- it's a very scary thing we 

6 are -- we are verging farther and farther away 

7 from that.

8 So what message are we sending to the 

9 millennials, the ones who are going to be 

10 inspired to make this a clean energy future to 

11 one you increase profits for solar companies, for 

12 wind power companies?

13 The EPA needs to do a better job at 

14 communicating these ideas. We need to enter into 

15 some sort of curriculum in more schools, in 

16 public schools. How do we show that this --

17 there is a sense of urgency. And how do we show 

18 that there -- that this is an emergency? Thank 

19 you very much.

20 MS. MORALES: Thanks to both of you. 

21 Next up Cliff Kotnik and Jerry -- excuse me, I’m 

22 not sure how to pronounce your last name --

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1 Ginianow?

2 MR. GINIANOW: Ginianow.

3 MS. MORALES: Ginianow.

4 MR. KOTNIK: Good afternoon. My name is 

5 Cliff Kotnik, K-O-T-N-I-K. Thank you for 

6 allowing me to comment on the proposed Clean 

7 Power Plan.

8 My family has lived in the Colorado 

9 Spring community for 20 years. On June 12th of 

10 last year we received a reverse 911 call telling 

11 us to evacuate our home immediately. The 

12 wildfire now known as the Black Forest fire was 

13 spreading out of control in the direction of our 

14 neighborhood. What followed was a very traumatic 

15 time for us and the thousands of other evacuated 

16 residents.

17 My family was one of the lucky ones. Our 

18 home was not damaged; however, nearly 500 

19 structures were destroyed and two people were 

20 killed.

21 2013 had a very hot, dry spring. 

22 Colorado Springs enacted throughout triggered 

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1 mandatory watering restrictions. Temperatures 

2 soared over a hundred degrees in Denver on June 

3 11th, the earliest it's ever reached triple 

4 digits.

5 The recently published National Climate 

6 Assessment Report contains a key relevant message 

7 for the southwest region of the United States. 

8 Quote -- Increased heat, drought, and insect 

9 outbreaks all linked to climate change have 

10 increased wildfires. 

11 Just a year earlier Colorado Springs 

12 experienced very similar conditions with record 

13 heat and saw the Waldo Canyon fire spread out of 

14 control, take two lives and destroy 346 homes.

15 The Rocky Mountain Insurance Information 

16 Association estimates the total insured loss from 

17 these two fires at $875 million. The Martin 

18 Drake Power Plant in the heart of downtown 

19 Colorado Springs is a 50-year-old coal fired 

20 power plant and part of the Colorado Springs 

21 utility portfolio.

22 At the direction of City Council who 

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1 serve as the Board of Directors for the utilities 

2 an independent consultant conducted a study of 

3 various options for decommissioning the Martin 

4 Drake facility. The consultant issued their 

5 final report at the end of 2013.

6 The study estimated the net present value 

7 of the direct financial costs for all the 

8 utility's power generation over a 30-year time 

9 horizon for a dozen decommissioning scenarios. 

10 The costs were compared to a base case of 

11 continuing operation of Martin Drake for 20 

12 years.

13 The study also estimated the net present 

14 value of the indirect social and environmental 

15 costs of the various decommissioning options over 

16 the same 30-year period. There are many 

17 components to the indirect costs but greenhouse 

18 gas and critical air contaminants were the two 

19 largest. 

20 The study concluded that given the age of 

21 Martin Drake it is not feasible to continue to 

22 operate it for 20 more years. It also determined 

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1 that the indirect costs were nearly as large as 

2 the direct financial costs.

3 Two scenarios allowed for decommissioning 

4 in six and nine years adding natural gas or a mix 

5 of wind and natural gas generation. These two 

6 scenarios increased direct costs by 4.8 to 5.4 

7 percent while decreasing indirect costs by 14 to 

8 19 percent, three to four times the direct cost 

9 increase.

10 While these direct cost increases are not 

11 trivial, it must be realized that Colorado 

12 Springs Utilities prides itself on having 

13 electric rates 20 percent lower than the 

14 comparable utilities along the front range.

15 Hence, this aging coal plant could be 

16 decommissioned while still easily allowing the 

17 utility to maintain below average rates. You 

18 would think that Colorado Springs' City Council 

19 having just witnessed firsthand the trauma and 

20 destruction from two back to back wild land fires 

21 and seeing the results of this study would 

22 quickly move to create a decommissioning plan. 

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1 However, it's obvious from public comments that 

2 direct financial costs far outweigh the indirect 

3 social and environmental costs for a majority of 

4 accounts.

5 Executives in the utilities state they 

6 can keep Martin Drake operating for another 30 

7 years. 

8 Colorado Springs is just one of hundreds 

9 of communities across the country with similar 

10 scenarios playing out. Climate change impacts 

11 are becoming obvious and very costly.

12 The cost to change the electric power 

13 generation mix is manageable, yet without these 

14 proposed greenhouse gas --

15 (Buzzer sounded.)

16 MR. KOTNIK: -- regulations, our power 

17 generation mix will remain dominated by coal 

18 because there's insufficient reasons to change.

19 Please proceed to finalize and enforce 

20 these regulations as quickly as possible. Thank 

21 you.

22 MS. MORALES: Thank you. If you just 

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1 turn off your microphone? Thank you.

2 MR. GINIANOW: Good afternoon. I'm Jerry 

3 Ginianow, G-I-N-I-A-N-O-W. I am Denver's Chief 

4 Sustainability Officer, and on behalf of our 

5 Mayor Michael B. Hancock I'd like to welcome you 

6 to Denver and thank you for the time and effort 

7 you are investing in gathering public input here 

8 today.

9 The following testimony is just a partial 

10 expression of our views. Denver will be filing 

11 written comments on the proposed regulations 

12 separately. We're still gathering input on these 

13 two issues.

14 First, do these regulations take the 

15 nation far enough fast enough, and second, does 

16 Colorado get sufficient credit for the steps it 

17 has already taken to reduce its carbon footprint?

18 Despite the fact that we're still 

19 formulating our position on these two issues, 

20 there are several points that we can make today. 

21 First, our city government accepts the science 

22 behind rapid climate change, including the 

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1 significant contributions of human society to 

2 that change.

3 We recently released our first climate 

4 change adaptation plan. At nearly a hundred 

5 pages long it's among the most comprehensive 

6 issued by any major American city. In fact, I 

7 think it is the most comprehensive. If we did 

8 not accept the science of climate change, we 

9 would not have felt the need to develop such a 

10 plan.

11 Second, we agree that preventing the 

12 worst affects of rapid climate change requires 

13 serious efforts that go beyond mere straight-line 

14 extensions of current initiatives. Cities 

15 clearly have a major role to play, and we're 

16 proud of the steps that Denver has taken to do at 

17 least its fair share and to inspire others. 

18 We were one of the first cities to sign 

19 the Mayor's Climate Protection Agreement in 2005, 

20 one of the first to adopt a climate action plan 

21 in 2007, one of the first so sign on to the 

22 President's Better Buildings Challenge. We're 

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1 among the top 10 American cities for Energy Star 

2 Buildings and for solar power generating 

3 capacity. We're 11th in overall energy 

4 efficiency among the major cities studied by the 

5 American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy.

6 We've already reduced our per capita 

7 greenhouse gas emissions below 1990 levels, and 

8 we are pursuing a goal to reduce absolute 

9 emissions below that level by 2020 despite 

10 population growth at an annual rate of about two 

11 and a half percent.

12 City actions such as these are important, 

13 but cities cannot solve this problem without 

14 strong national leadership. We regret that 

15 Congress has failed to provide such leadership, 

16 but we are grateful that President Obama has 

17 acted decisively by releasing his proposed 

18 regulations. We support the assignment of 

19 reductions on a state-by-state basis without 

20 mandating specific plant-by-plant reductions.

21 We also support the flexibility inherent 

22 in providing states with multiple options for 

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1 achieving their required reductions and the 

2 ability to band together in multistate groups to 

3 work jointly on meeting aggregated reduction 

4 goals. This support reflects a general 

5 preference for market-based approaches that we 

6 apply in many areas of sustainability.

7 The success of cap and trade in reducing 

8 acid rain is beyond dispute. And we note that 

9 many of the arguments levied -- leveled at the 

10 current proposed regulations were leveled in 

11 similar fashion during the acid rain debate. The 

12 track record of experience under the acid rain 

13 regulations, however, has established that those 

14 arguments were not justified. They were not 

15 justified then, and they're not justified now.

16 While we're still considering the 

17 propriety of Colorado's allocation of reduction 

18 responsibility, we are confident that whatever 

19 the final number is, Colorado will do well under 

20 the market-based approach taken by these 

21 regulations. We are a community of innovators 

22 blessed by the presence of the national renewable 

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1 energy laboratory and the talent it has attracted 

2 to this region.

3 The proposed regulations will undoubtedly 

4 provide an economic benefit to the Denver area 

5 and provide added impetus to the many initiatives 

6 we are already pursuing to reduce in absolute 

7 terms the greenhouse gas emissions from our 

8 activities and choices.

9 So let me close by thanking you once 

10 again for your time, your effort, and most of all 

11 your patience today and tomorrow. We look 

12 forward to completing the presentation of our 

13 views through our supplemental written comments. 

14 Thank you very much.

15 MS. MORALES: Thank you both. 

16 I'd like to call up next Liz McIntyre and 

17 Troy DeJoode.

18 MS. MCINTYRE: Hello, I'm Liz McIntyre, 

19 M-C-I-N-T-Y-R-E. And I thank the panel for the 

20 opportunity to testify today.

21 I am a three-time winter Olympian, a 

22 silver medalist, a two-time Olympic coach, and a 

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1 member of the National Ski Hall of Fame. I am 

2 here to support the Clean Power Plan.

3 Born in New Hampshire, I have lived in 

4 Grand County, Colorado, nearly 25 years. We 

5 purchase electricity from Mountain Parks 

6 Electric, a rural co-op. 

7 I am motivated to testify in part because 

8 I believe that the National Rural Electric 

9 Cooperative Association is doing a disservice to 

10 its membership. It is shutting out the voices of 

11 many members on this issue and mounting a fear12 mongering campaign reminiscent of the -- if 

13 leaded gas is prohibited, travel by car will 

14 become unreliable and unaffordable.

15 In Colorado our pride in the spectacular 

16 beauty of our state and our concern for the 

17 health of fellow citizens has prompted us to 

18 tackle air quality issues in a manner that 

19 protects consumers, the economy, and the 

20 environment. The Clean Power Plan allows us to 

21 build on this legacy.

22 One of my earliest memories is a cool, 

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1 clear fall morning in New Hampshire. I'm in 

2 nursery school, three years old, and we are 

3 digging potatoes. Our hands are dirty from 

4 digging in the moist soil, and our teacher forks 

5 the potatoes to the side of the hills, and we 

6 leave them to dry in the sun.

7 Lesson one, our planet is a pretty 

8 special place. It's the only place we know of at 

9 this point that we can grow potatoes.

10 When I was in third grade I read a Weekly 

11 Reader article about the greenhouse effect. The 

12 article predicted flooding in New York City due 

13 to sea level rise. I couldn't have read that 

14 article earlier because my first grade teacher 

15 believed in voluntary self-paced, unregulated 

16 learning. My parents were concerned by the 

17 smiley faces drawn on my clearly deficient work. 

18 I was not learning to read.

19 Lesson 2, a well conceived plan is 

20 necessary to achieve desired results. As a kid 

21 my fingers would freeze in my mittens as I held 

22 tight to the steel shaft of the Poma lift and it 

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1 dragged me up the Dartmouth Skiway wobbly legged. 

2 Each winter for 11 years I skied. When I was in 

3 ninth grade, snow didn't come. The Skiway never 

4 opened.

5 To adapt snow-making was installed. By 

6 the mid '80's I was training on the moguls of 

7 Mary Jane which led to my first World Cup mogul 

8 skiing victory. It was 1987 on a glacier in 

9 Tignes, France. By the late '90's that same 

10 glacier had vanished. The slope unrecognizable, 

11 the T-bars hung 40 feet in the air useless.

12 My background in sports shapes the lens 

13 with which I view the world. I strongly believe 

14 that competition makes us sharper, leaner, and 

15 more inventive. The Clean Power Plan provides a 

16 framework for just such a competition in reducing 

17 carbon pollution.

18 To those who oppose this plan I ask what 

19 have the leaders of your industry been doing for 

20 the last 40 years? Is keeping the lights on 

21 enough? Have they implemented a cost effective 

22 way to cut carbon pollution? Have they made any 

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1 major breakthroughs in increasing the efficiency 

2 of coal plants? Have they developed systems and 

3 enhanced their ability to meet demand 

4 fluctuations? If the answer is no, the Clean 

5 Power Plan provides flexible and fair framework 

6 to prompt these actions.

7 As Coloradans we can be proud of our 

8 state's actions to reduce carbon pollution. 

9 Think Amendment 37 in 2004 and the 2010 Clean 

10 Air-Clean Jobs Act. Colorado can get this done.

11 In 2010 -- consider this: In 2010 solar 

12 installed in the Mountain Parks Electric 

13 territory penciled out at about 19 cents a 

14 kilowatt hour. Last fall it was between 5 and 11 

15 cents a kilowatt hour. Yes, that's comparable to 

16 or below retail rates.

17 Lesson 3, things aren't what they used to 

18 be. It is 41 years after that Weekly Reader 

19 article. The Atlantic Ocean has been in the 

20 subway tunnels of New York City. A voluntary 

21 self-paced scheme to reduce carbon emissions has 

22 done nothing.

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1 The Clean Power Plan sends a signal to 

2 the rest of the world that we will act. As 

3 sentient beings of Coloradans it's our moral 

4 obligation to protect our atmosphere so that 

5 future generations of nursery school students can 

6 dig potatoes and live on a special planet.

7 MS. MORALES: Thank you.

8 MR. DEJOODE: Thank you. My name is Troy 

9 D. I am the Executive Director of the Iowa 

10 Association of Municipal Utilities. Spell that 

11 capital D, little E, capital J-O-O-D-E.

12 The Iowa Association of Municipal 

13 Utilities is a non-profit corporation 

14 representing 543 Iowa cities that operate 

15 electric, gas, water, storm water, and 

16 communications utilities, including 136 municipal 

17 electric utilities.

18 Our mission is to support and strengthen 

19 Iowa's municipal utilities. And I appreciate the 

20 opportunity that you presented to all the parties 

21 here. Thank you for doing that.

22 Our main concern is one of complexity and 

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1 timelines. Iowa's community-owned, not-for2 profit electric utilities serve their communities 

3 with reliable and affordable electricity for over 

4 120 years with decisions made at the very local 

5 level.

6 They now serve over 210,000 customers, 

7 and like I said, 136 communities. The variety 

8 and diversity of that -- those communities -- is 

9 staggering at times. It includes Ames Electric 

10 Services with nearly 25,000 customers to the City 

11 of Westfield with fewer than a hundred. Seventy12 five percent of Iowa's municipal electric 

13 utilities serve fewer than 1,500 customers.

14 In addition to the diversity of size and 

15 geography, the power supply arrangements for 

16 Iowa's municipal electric utilities vary greatly 

17 depending on the unique characteristics of each, 

18 including the factors as the size, access to 

19 transmission facilities, and its ownership or 

20 lack thereof of those facilities.

21 Those were the largest loads, including 

22 the cities of Ames, Muscatine, and Cedar Falls on 

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1 most of their power supply resources through 

2 local or jointly owned generation. And they 

3 participated in MISO energy market.

4 On the other hand, many smaller municipal 

5 utilities have long-term all requirements power 

6 supply contracts, and they have only emergency 

7 generation or none at all.

8 Between these extremes there are a 

9 variety -- wide variety of power supply 

10 arrangements. Nineteen are minority owners and 

11 Mid America's base load plants. Many others have 

12 invested in a long-term base load surprise 

13 through membership and joint action power 

14 agencies. Six are members of Western Iowa 

15 Municipal Electric Cooperative. Municipal 

16 utilities or their power agency currently buy or 

17 sell portfolio of energy and capacity from the 

18 multistate MISO and SDP markets. Fifty-nine 

19 municipal utilities receive a portion of their 

20 power supply from low cost, carbon free Western 

21 Area Power Administration hydro resources.

22 Many municipals own local generation, 

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1 including diesel, wind, hydro, and solar 

2 resources. In 2013 Iowa not its municipals alone 

3 -- its municipals, its investor-owned and it's 

4 co-ops -- received over 27 percent of its 

5 electricity from wind power and had over 5,000 

6 megawatts of installed capacity.

7 Although I say this to emphasize the 

8 diversity of the challenges that we face -- our 

9 members face -- in complying with the proposed 

10 rules. I'm not here to debate the rules. It's 

11 simply a matter of practicality for our people, 

12 our members.

13 We appreciate the -- the flexibility that 

14 the EPA has given the state. That flexibility 

15 has produced some unknowns that we have concerns 

16 will make compliance in the allotted timeframe 

17 challenging. And I think that's our message is 

18 that the -- we have concerns about the -- the 

19 challenging timeframe that there is.

20 We'll go into more details in our written 

21 comments, obviously. We have concerns about 

22 local control, rate impacts, and extraneous costs 

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1 as well as credit for action taken in the recent 

2 years; but our most important thing is the 

3 timeline that has been given to the states to 

4 comply. Thank you.

5 MS. MORALES: Thanks to both of you. 

6 I'd like to call up next Dan Hodges and 

7 then Joan Seemen.

8 Mr. Hodges, you can start. We'll --

9 MR. HODGES: I thank you very much. My 

10 name is Daniel Hodges. That's spelled 

11 A-W-E-S-O-M-E, H-O-D-G-E-S.

12 I'm here on behalf of Colorado Springs 

13 Utilities. We are a four-service municipal 

14 utility. We provide water, wastewater, gas, and 

15 electric service to a population of approximately 

16 450,000 people in Colorado Springs and the Pikes 

17 Peak region.

18 Colorado Springs Utility is a 

19 municipally-owned utility, so we are owned by the 

20 people of Colorado Springs. We are not for 

21 profit and pass all of the costs of our business 

22 directly on to our customer owners. 

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1 As part of our electric operations, 

2 Colorado Springs Utilities owns and operates 

3 natural gas, coal, and hydro electric generating 

4 units.

5 And I’m here today to speak to our 

6 primary concerns on the EPA's Clean Power Plan 

7 rule as it relates for our electric operations. 

8 And we break them down into principally four 

9 categories. 

10 One, you've heard much today about the 

11 proposal potentially going beyond the guidance 

12 and authority provided under the Clean Air Act.

13 We're particularly concerned about Building 

14 Blocks 3 and 4, and potentially Building Block 2 

15 that it could leave Colorado with a higher 

16 reduction mandate than would otherwise be 

17 supported by the law.

18 Further, the State of Colorado would need 

19 to have commensurate authority created, and we're 

20 a little worried that the authority that needs to 

21 be created would not also be supported by the 

22 Clean Air Act. So we'd like to see that -- that 

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1 resolved.

2 The other concern we have concerning 

3 Number 2 is that we feel this proposal is very 

4 rushed. You've heard previously about the time 

5 frame we need for a rather straightforward plan 

6 like Regional Haze. And that does have an impact 

7 on the ability of the State Air Office to turn 

8 around and come up with a compliance plan but 

9 also, it puts a burden on the utility where we 

10 need to turn around and come up with a budget, 

11 and a compliance plan ourselves in order to 

12 address the plan. So we're rather concerned 

13 about the short timeframes that are afforded 

14 here.

15 We're also concerned about errors that 

16 are contained in the proposal as it has been 

17 introduced. For example, the EPA based its 

18 emission reduction goals in Colorado by looking 

19 for Coloradans to shift electric capacity from 

20 coal to natural gas. In the EPA's analysis of 

21 Colorado Springs Utilities' Front Range Power 

22 Plant which is a 480 megawatt combined cycle 

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1 power plant on name plate capacity, EPA utilized 

2 the name plate capacity, not its actual operating 

3 certified capacity. And this creates a 

4 difference of about 10 percent in the 

5 calculation.

6 We'll fully identify this and other 

7 errors in our written comments, including basic 

8 technical errors as well as places where the text 

9 of the rule does not match the text; but we 

10 wanted to bring that particular issue to your 

11 attention that there seems to be an issue between 

12 name plate capacity and actual operating 

13 capacity.

14 The other concern we have is that the 

15 impact of this proposal could extend beyond the 

16 electric markets. This proposal will create 

17 significant new demand for natural gas, and 

18 Colorado Springs Utilities is both an electric 

19 and natural gas distribution utility; so we know 

20 a little something about this.

21 Our front range power plant if it is run 

22 at full capacity will consume as much natural gas 

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1 in a year as our entire retail distribution load. 

2 Simply put, one power plant equals about a 

3 Colorado Springs' worth demand for natural gas 

4 for one power plant. They use a lot of natural 

5 gas. And we want the EPA to be fully aware of 

6 that.

7 And these are issues that we're 

8 highlighting right now with both EPA as well as 

9 the DOE and the FERC on the gas demand and what 

10 that could mean for the secondary impacts for the 

11 home heating costs in Colorado Springs.

12 We respectfully would ask the EPA as it 

13 looks under the hood at this proposal that they 

14 would consider a less stringent interim goal. As 

15 proposed from our perspective, the interim goal 

16 is virtually identical to the final goal. And 

17 this means customers will experience an immediate 

18 and significant rate impact in 2020. And we're 

19 afraid that the if the natural gas market 

20 responds with increased prices, our customers 

21 will get it both ways, both on their power bill 

22 and their natural gas bill, their heating bill.

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1 Finally, we'd like to see a safety valve 

2 included in there to allow for unexpected rate or 

3 reliability impacts. Our 90 years in the natural 

4 gas markets have taught us that the natural gas 

5 markets are not predictable, and we think some 

6 sort of financial mechanism, a safety valve or an 

7 off ramp, needs to be provided if natural gas 

8 prices exceed a certain threshold.

9 We thank you very much for giving us the 

10 opportunity to speak today, and I thank you for 

11 your time.

12 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Is Joan Seeman 

13 in the room? And Dom Bererra? Is Dom Bererra in 

14 here?

15 (No response.)

16 MS. MORALES: How about Rachel 

17 Girfunckle?

18 (No response.)

19 MS. SEEMAN: My name is Joan Seeman, and 

20 I'm here as a citizen today.

21 MR. RISLEY: Can you just spell your last 

22 name?

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1 MS. SEEMAN: S-E-E-M-A-N. Can you hear 

2 me?

3 MS. MORALES: Yes.

4 MS. SEEMAN: Am I too loud?

5 I have to say EPA has definitely stepped 

6 up to the table for this one. For many years I 

7 had been exposed to pollution from Rocky Flats to 

8 -- just on and on and on. I can give you the 

9 list. And so I learned about the EPA, and for 

10 many years I referred to the EPA as the 

11 industrial protection agency.

12 I helped actually a family understand the 

13 exposure that they were having living underneath 

14 the Cherokee Power Plant here in Denver. And 

15 there was a whole community of folks that were 

16 living under the plume of the Cherokee Power 

17 Plant. You know, it didn't take a rocket 

18 scientist for them to understand emissions and --

19 and they were exposed to 20-minute upset 

20 condition from the power plant.

21 And so coal ash was in their home, on 

22 their yard, in the community. It was just a 

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1 shocking experience. What we learned about that 

2 was coal ash and discharge, et cetera.

3 So I guess, you know, I could get into 

4 the technical on this because somehow as citizens 

5 we begin to learn about the technical stuff, but 

6 today I wanted just to definitely let you know 

7 that from my experience here in Colorado I have 

8 to take it back and really want to thank the EPA 

9 for stepping up to this one.

10 I focus on toxic waste and all the dirty 

11 energy producers are producing toxic waste. 

12 Something new has happened in Colorado, so we are 

13 concerned about the -- the carbon dioxide that 

14 will be deep injected, carbon sequestration, so I 

15 know that's coming to exempt that as well. It's 

16 been a problem, so this -- as I said, this move 

17 by EPA is certainly well received and many people 

18 thank you for this. It's time.

19 And as I said, for all the exemptions for 

20 the dirty energy, coal exemptions for their ash, 

21 and many exemptions, so this is a beginning; and 

22 I just wanted to say thank you very much which is 

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1 not really what I do. Thank you.

2 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Is Steve Szabo 

3 in the room?

4 MR. SZABO: Good afternoon. My name is 

5 Steve Szabo, and I reside in Colorado up in 

6 Longmont.

7 MR. RISLEY: Can you spell your last 

8 name?

9 MR. SZABO: S-Z-A-B-O.

10 MR. RISLEY: Thank you.

11 MR. SZABO: I reside in Longmont, 

12 Colorado, where I have a small farm. I'm a 

13 member of the Rocky Mountain Farmers Union and a 

14 Poudre Valley Rural Electric Co-op member that 

15 receives its power from Tri-State Generation and 

16 Transmission.

17 In 1978 I took my nephews camping and 

18 fishing to Long Lake in the Adirondacks. Before 

19 setting up camp we stopped at Hoss's Country 

20 Store to get some bait and supplies. I had asked

21 the attendant how's fishing lately. He said 

22 there were hardly any fish in the lake. When I 

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1 asked why, he said he was told it was caused by 

2 acid rain, but he didn't know what that was.

3 At that time we did not have the 

4 internet, so it took me several weeks to figure 

5 out what acid rain was by going to libraries and 

6 checking other sources. So what I found was acid 

7 rain was caused by burning sulfur and nitrogen 

8 dioxide emitted by burning coal, and that it is 

9 harmful and causes problems in lakes and streams,

10 and human health, our forest, and crop 

11 production. I witnessed the affects of acid rain 

12 to plants and trees at the higher elevations 

13 while hiking the Appalachian Trail.

14 In 1980 the EPA established a 10-year 

15 research program to look at the problem. And in 

16 1990 the EPA started a program to control sulfur 

17 and nitrogen dioxide pollution from burning coal.

18 In late June of this year I called Hoss's 

19 Country Corner again, and they told me there's 

20 plenty fish back in the lake. Also, the public 

21 health benefit from the program accounts for $52 

22 billion in savings annually since 2010. So here 

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1 is an example of an EPA program that had positive 

2 results.

3 But dealing with excessive carbon dioxide 

4 levels presents a real challenge. Scientists 

5 tell us that carbon that we have now in our 

6 atmosphere will be there for hundreds to 

7 thousands of years, and we are and will continue 

8 to have environmental and human health problems 

9 associated with the existing CO2 levels.

10 I'm extremely concerned that the extreme 

11 heat and drought conditions we see now will 

12 increase and hurt our crop production. Water 

13 that's used for power plants and fracking 

14 operations would better be used in crop 

15 production.

16 We all know that fossil fuels are not 

17 here forever, and when they're gone, they're 

18 never coming back.

19 Coal costs will continue to increase, and 

20 according to Tri-State Generation and 

21 Transmission, coal costs will double by 2032.

22 However, clean renewable costs will 

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1 continue to fall, and there are no associated 

2 fuel costs. In fact, wind generation costs are 

3 lower than fossil fuels according to the Energy 

4 Administration -- Information Administration 

5 data.

6 So consumers will spend less for energy 

7 when we increase the amount of renewables we 

8 deploy. Clean energy development and 

9 installations will create jobs and bolster our 

10 economy.

11 Getting back to our environment and human 

12 health, if the earth is impacted by a meteor or 

13 we encounter excessive volcanic activity that 

14 causes extreme environmental conditions and puts 

15 human health at risk or extinction, we can all 

16 accept that. That's out of our control.

17 But if we humans raise our CO2 levels 

18 that cause environmental problems, shame on us. 

19 If we cause health problems and the possible 

20 extinction of our species by continuing to burn 

21 fossil fuels, shame on us. If we cause 

22 stagnation on our economy by not moving forward 

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1 with clean energy solutions that will create 

2 jobs, shame on us. If we damage our agricultural 

3 crop yields because we use too much water for 

4 fossil fuel energy production, shame on us.

5 In December of 2007 the Colorado 

6 Renewable Resource Generation Task Force reported 

7 that we have 300 gigawatts of wind and 93 

8 gigawatts of solar available right here in 

9 Colorado. That's enough to power our entire 

10 state and allow us to export to neighboring

11 states. Energy storage development is moving 

12 forward at a rapid pace and is expected to be 

13 cost effective in a few years, so let's start 

14 deploying more clean energy resources.

15 In closing I must say I applaud the EPA 

16 for developing the Clean Power Plan and for 

17 continuing to work for safe CO2 levels. Thank 

18 you.

19 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Just a 

20 reminder, if you're interested in providing 

21 testimony, you do need to register outside.

22 We will break for 10 minutes and return 

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1 at 4:15. Thank you.

2 (Brief recess.)

3 MS. MORALES: I might just ask is Karen 

4 Dike in the room or Lilia Ramirez?

5 (No response.)

6 How about Kayla -- or Kaylin Richardson?

7 Hi, do you want to go ahead and -- let's 

8 go ahead and open the session back up. If 

9 everybody would take your seats.

10 MS. DIKE: My name is Karen Dike. That's 

11 spelled D-I-K-E. I’m a member of the Sierra 

12 Club; however, I'm here on behalf of my 

13 grandchildren, Autumn, 17; Lara, 10; and Charlie, 

14 8. They face an uncertain future due to the 

15 effects of carbon in the atmosphere and the 

16 resulting climate change that is bringing weather 

17 changes, rising sea levels, and other effects.

18 Their future is bleak if we don't act rapidly. 

19 So thank you for taking the first big step 

20 towards mitigating the effects of carbon 

21 pollution with the coal regulations.

22 My grandchildren also face another 

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1 threat. I want to tell you that while you are 

2 advocating decreasing pollution from coal, fossil 

3 fuel production is polluting our air, land, and 

4 water. You are in the front range; we are in a 

5 non-attainment area for ozone.

6 While the EPA and President Obama see 

7 natural gas as a bridge fuel, new data shows 

8 extremely high rates of methane releases, and 

9 there are other fugitive emissions from these 

10 natural gas extractions. This air pollution 

11 increases risks for asthma, neurological damage, 

12 and cancer.

13 Statistics show us an estimated increased 

14 death rate in the United States due to air 

15 pollution is about 100,000 per year. These 

16 numbers don't show the physical and psychological 

17 toll related to causing these deaths.

18 As a Registered Nurse I can tell you that 

19 watching a child with asthma while they struggle 

20 to breathe is difficult. I can also assure you 

21 that watching the ravages of cancer is equally 

22 difficult. To those who develop neurological 

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1 disorders life becomes arduous. The families 

2 also suffer with those afflicted and with great 

3 economic toll as well.

4 While my grandchildren and yours face an 

5 uncertain future, the fossil fuel industry is 

6 continuing to use our air as a dumping ground for 

7 greenhouse gases and are able to reap huge 

8 profits. A study reported in the Denver Post 

9 stated that scientists found 19.3 tons of methane 

10 released an hour. This is potentially higher now 

11 that there are 1,972 new wells that were approved 

12 so far this year. There are now over 52,000 

13 wells in Colorado. 

14 Our water is also at stake. The Denver 

15 Post today stated that 521 spills were reported 

16 so far this year. This is reliant on self17 reporting by the industry and is only for spills 

18 greater than 210 gallons.

19 I urge you to act. The first step must 

20 be to end all special exemptions to the current 

21 EPA regulations for clean air, clean water, and 

22 other environmental standards.

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1 We don't need this extreme amount of 

2 natural gas to be energy independent. These 

3 fossil fuels are being shipped to foreign 

4 countries which will only contribute to more 

5 climate change. 

6 We shouldn't be subject to this pollution 

7 so that other countries can pollute. It is time 

8 to move rapidly to renewables and to encourage 

9 all other countries to do so as well. It is time 

10 to give us back our rights for clean air and 

11 clean water and to protect our environment. The 

12 Halliburton loopholes must be closed.

13 I moved to this beautiful state of 

14 Colorado in March last year. I soon learned that 

15 the ozone level in Longmont is higher than Los 

16 Angeles. 

17 I'm closing with a poem by Drew 

18 Dellinger. It's 3:23 in the morning and I’m 

19 awake because my great, great grandchildren won't 

20 let me sleep. My great, great grandchildren ask 

21 me in dreams what did you do while the planet was 

22 plundered? What did you do when the earth was 

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1 unraveling? Surely you did something when the 

2 seasons started failing as the mammals, reptiles, 

3 and birds were all dying.

4 Did you fill the streets with protest 

5 when democracy was stolen? What did you do once 

6 you knew?

7 Thank you. I urge you to act rapidly on 

8 behalf of my grandchildren and yours.

9 MS. MORALES: Thank you. Is Lilia 

10 Ramirez in the room or Kaylin Richardson? Please 

11 come up.

12 And please remember to spell your names 

13 for the court reporter.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Oh, Kaylin. All right. 

15 So Kaylin Richardson, K-A-Y-L-I-N, Richardson, 

16 R-I-C-H-A-R-D-S-O-N. All right. Let's get this 

17 started.

18 I want to thank you guys all for coming 

19 out, especially the EPA Administrator Gina 

20 McCarthy. It is an honor to share my thoughts 

21 with you.

22 My name is Kaylin Richardson, and I'm a 

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1 pro skier and a two-time Olympian. My earliest 

2 memories revolve around snow and that has become 

3 -- I'm used to standing up when I speak, so bear 

4 with me.

5 My earliest memories revolve around snow, 

6 and that's a part of the main yard of my life. 

7 Climate change was something I was aware of via 

8 buzz words like global warming, renewable energy; 

9 but it wasn't until I started becoming involved 

10 with the Climate Reality Projects, I Am Pro Snow 

11 Campaign two years ago that I really started to 

12 put the puzzle pieces together. I realized the 

13 true gravity of this crisis.

14 The last 20 years, unknowingly -- this is 

15 just not working for me. I'm just going to talk 

16 to you guys.

17 The last 20 years unknowingly I had 

18 constantly been observing climate change, and I 

19 didn't even realize it. Throughout my 10 years 

20 racing on the U.S. Ski Team every fall I would 

21 train on glaciers in Austria and Switzerland. In 

22 a time so cosmically unsubstantial I was 

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1 witnessing these glaciers that took thousands of 

2 years to accumulate recede before my eyes.

3 When I competed in the 2010 games in 

4 Vancouver every night it wouldn't get to freezing 

5 so it would wreak havoc on the courses. I've 

6 never been more afraid than in the Olympics when 

7 I was competing, which that shouldn't be the 

8 case.

9 Just a few months ago I was in Sochi, 

10 Russia, as an Olympic correspondent for the 

11 Weather Channel. And it wasn't just at the 

12 coastal stadiums but at the mountain venues that 

13 more often than not I was reporting in a T-shirt. 

14 This is not normal for a winter games.

15 These are all examples from ski racing 

16 which is occurring in a controlled arena where 

17 the snow surface is manicured and manipulated; 

18 but it wasn't until I ventured into the world of 

19 big mountain skiing where you were at the whim 

20 and mercy of Mother Nature that I truly 

21 understood how wide the scope of this problem is.

22 Last March after traveling for 24 hours 

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1 straight I arrived between the 68th and 69th 

2 parallels in the Lofoten Islands of Norway. So 

3 the scenery there is staggering, like these 

4 mountains just shoot up out of the ocean, and I 

5 couldn't describe it other than it was like a 

6 fairy tale.

7 I was there to film a ski movie for 

8 Warren Miller Entertainment, and it looked like a 

9 skiers' paradise, but however, when I got there, 

10 I couldn't help but notice that there was no 

11 bitter cold or overabundance of snow. And we 

12 were above the Arctic Circle.

13 Once we settled in our guide sadly told 

14 us that it was the warmest and driest winter that 

15 they've had since they started recording history, 

16 and that's about 200 years for them.

17 A year before that again I was in Norway 

18 filming and -- but a different region in the 

19 Western Fiordlands, and my friends there, my 

20 Scandinavian friends there. We looked out the 

21 window and shook our heads when we watched it 

22 rain in February. We're talking about Norway, 

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1 like the wintery wonderland of Norway.

2 But this is not just happening overseas. 

3 This is a problem we see right here at home. In 

4 Colorado the spring melt season starts two weeks 

5 earlier than it does in the 1970's. That's no 

6 time at all.

7 During the winter of 2011 half of the 

8 nation's ski resorts opened late, and nearly half 

9 closed early.

10 These climate disruptions aren't just 

11 robbing those of their favorite wintertime 

12 recreation. They're also -- excuse me -- nations 

13 -- it's costing them their livelihood. Like 

14 people are making money doing this -- and myself 

15 included.

16 The downhill ski resort industry lost 

17 between 13,000 and 27,000 jobs between 1999 and 

18 2010 due to shortening seasons and reducing snow 

19 pack.

20 The more people I ski with -- speak with, 

21 the more this story proliferates with their own 

22 first-hand accounts. These trends and shared 

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1 experiences are not coincidence; they are 

2 evidence -- evidence that something needs to 

3 happen. Climate change must be addressed.

4 My community of cold-weather lovers is 

5 one of the first groups to notice that there will 

6 be these changes because what they love is one of 

7 the first things that's going to disappear.

8 I hope you rise to the occasion and 

9 choose to set an example paving the way for other 

10 groups to adapt to what will become our new 

11 economy of renewable energy. Much like I hope 

12 the Clean Power Plan will set the U.S. apart as a 

13 world leader that has the wisdom to invest in the 

14 future instead of wasting time and money on the 

15 futility of what is immediate.

16 This is the largest single action that 

17 the U.S. Government has ever taken to address 

18 climate change, and it needs to be championed by 

19 people that look to the world as a place of 

20 priority. There are so many horrific 

21 consequences of climate change -- health is 

22 stolen, souls broken, lives lost. The protecting 

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1 of the cold and snow may seem arbitrary maybe and 

2 inconsequential, but it's not. It's not at all 

3 because it's all connected, and we as a community 

4 and as a nation need to come together to support 

5 this rule.

6 Possibly the most, if not effective, 

7 poignant illustration is that if carbon pollution 

8 does not go unabated, it is going to deprive us 

9 of some of life's sweetest moments.

10 (Buzzer sounded.)

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Intangibles that I 

12 believe regardless of your chosen ideology we 

13 will all miss deeply. Skiing, powder -- or 

14 carving through powder is just like this 

15 wonderful feeling. Making a snow angel with your 

16 nephew or your daughter and then there is 

17 listening to that beautiful silence that only 

18 fresh snow can create. 

19 Tell me that these aren't worth 

20 protecting. Thanks.

21 MS. MORALES: Could you go turn off that 

22 mike and that way you can turn yours on. Only 

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1 one will work at a time. Thank you.

2 MS. RAMIREZ: Buenos tardes. Mi nombre 

3 es Lilia Ramirez. 

4 (Speaking in Spanish and translation 

5 appears below.)

6 MS. NUCETE: Hi, my name is Hilda Nucete 

7 from Costa Mesa, Colorado. I'm a community 

8 organizer for the Latina Region [inaudible] --

9 I'm actually going to translate what she just 

10 said. 

11 So, good afternoon, my name is Lilia 

12 Ramirez. I am an organizer for Conservation 

13 Colorado, but today I am here as an immigrant 

14 mother worried about the reality that our 

15 communities lives in respect of the environment 

16 and the great concerns that today we cannot 

17 avoid.

18 Definitely I am more unsure that it 

19 doesn't matter the color of your skin, level of 

20 education, or much less the political party that 

21 you prefer seeing as we all breathe the same air.

22 By the way, that air is so polluted that 

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1 violates the federal standards of contamination. 

2 I believe that we can be very different 

3 externally, but we all -- all of us only have two 

4 lungs, that by the way we all know that are not 

5 renewable which is why today I speak to you of --

6 to your good conscience. We still have time to 

7 make our change for our kids, our health, and our 

8 future.

9 I know that by taking action I will not 

10 only be benefitting my community but all around 

11 us. Just as myself there are many people in my 

12 community that are interested in having cleaner 

13 air to breathe.

14 Today I am representing almost 2,000 

15 people in my community that are interested in 

16 having cleaner air. People that have signed EPA 

17 cards concern about seeking a change in our air 

18 quality.

19 I would like to -- sorry -- it will be 

20 practically impossible that these 2,000 people 

21 could be here present today since they have jobs; 

22 they have obligations, but to be honest, none of 

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1 those people didn't know all these issues that 

2 they are concerned about and have to face.

3 I am very honor to belong to a team that 

4 every day, no matter sun, rain, or thunder, we go 

5 to the streets, to supermarkets, libraries, and 

6 even your homes contacting families in our 

7 community that have been forgotten, making them 

8 know that their voice has a value and that we can 

9 make a change.

10 That is why today I ask you to help us 

11 make this promise a reality. I am an immigrant, 

12 and I have noticed that in this country we help 

13 -- we can participate in the political process 

14 and that our voice does count.

15 Consequently, with all the -- with a 

16 united voice we ask for a cleaner air to breathe. 

17 Thank you.

18 MS. MORALES: Can you just spell your 

19 name again for the record?

20 MS. NUCETE: Oh, my name is Hilda Nucete, 

21 H-I-L-D-A, N-U-C-E-T-E. And her name is Lilia 

22 Ramirez, L-I-L-I-A, R-A-M-I-R-E-Z.

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1 MS. MORALES: Thank you.

2 MS. NUCETE: Thank you.

3 MS. MORALES: I want to call up next 

4 Vickie Simmons and Christopher Votoupal.

5 Is there a Jaime Travis in the room? Is 

6 Christopher coming? Sorry.

7 MR. VOTOUPAL: Yes, right here.

8 MS. SIMMONS: I guess I'll start. Vickie 

9 Simmons, V-I-C-K-I-E, Simmons, S-I-M-M-O-N-S. My 

10 name is Vickie Simmons, and I'm a member of the 

11 Moapa Band of Paiute Indians.

12 MS. MORALES: Yes, just don't get too --

13 don't get too close to that. It should catch 

14 your voice.

15 MS. SIMMONS: A small Indian Reservation 

16 325 -- let me start over.

17 I'm a member of the Moapa Band of 

18 Paiutes, a small Indian Reservation 50 miles 

19 north of Las Vegas. Since 1965 we have -- we 

20 have endured the pollution from Reid Gardner coal 

21 fired power plant now producing 560 megawatts. 

22 We have asthma, thyroid cancer, learning 

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1 disabilities, heart problems -- and heart 

2 problems amongst many other illnesses.

3 My brother and neighbor both worked in 

4 the coal yard and they started working there at a 

5 young age, right out of high school. They both 

6 died at the age of 31 and 32 from cardiomyopathy.

7 The odds of getting this was one in a 

8 hundred thousand. That was the last thing my 

9 brother lived to say to me, so I remember that 

10 always because he didn't live. He had a massive 

11 heart attack right after that.

12 If you live next to a coal plant, your 

13 life is affected just like when a person who 

14 smokes gets cancer, you cannot prove which pack 

15 of cigarettes killed him, just that it 

16 contributed to their demise.

17 I come to Colorado today to beg the EPA, 

18 the Environmental Protection Agency and other 

19 decision makers to think strong and hard about 

20 environmental justice. We depend on the 

21 Environmental Protection Agency to do what it's 

22 supposed to do. Please protect us. We are off 

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1 the beaten path. We are poor. Please look out 

2 for the poor people of the world who will be most 

3 affected by the disasters and the -- of enormous 

4 proportion if climate change continues and the 

5 course is not deescalated. 

6 I want to be on the right side of 

7 history. Stricter regulations for carbon. 

8 Things can change, and in Nevada they have 

9 changed. Nevada will be going off of coal by 

10 2017. The power plant next to me, three stacks 

11 will go off line in 2014 in December and the 

12 largest stack will go down in 2017.

13 Before coming to Denver I left a meeting 

14 with Nevada Energy on cleaning up the coal plant. 

15 I never believed that this day would come. So 

16 it's really amazing.

17 Our tribe has also became the first tribe 

18 in the nation to develop commercial scale clean 

19 energy project -- solar. We have a power 

20 purchase agreement with LAWP for the first 200 

21 megawatts of solar project called First Solar. 

22 Our tribal members are all working and all have 

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1 good paying jobs, and we have a call out to our 

2 neighbors for hundreds of more workers. Those 

3 workers should be able to transition into the 

4 other solar projects that we have in development 

5 which the State of Nevada will buy from us to 

6 replace the dirty coal power. So it can happen.

7 And I want to say -- let me say right now 

8 good jobs, safe jobs, green jobs. This is the 

9 future. Please remember that coal ash is not 

10 regulated yet, and we're hoping for stricter 

11 regulations on coal ash because once the coal 

12 plants close, they'll leave behind a terrible 

13 mess.

14 Indian Reservation like mine lack the 

15 resources to implement the complex environmental 

16 laws. So I ask again and I beg the Environmental 

17 Protection Agency to increase regulation on 

18 existing power plants. Climate change is real, 

19 and the people who will be the most affected will 

20 be the poor people of the world. They will 

21 suffer the most. Let's have America lead the 

22 world -- clean energy.

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1 MS. MORALES: If you would turn off your 

2 mike -- thank you.

3 MR. VOTOUPAL: Chris Votoupal, C-H-R-I-S, 

4 Votoupal, V-O-T-O-U-P-A-L. I'm the Deputy 

5 Director of the Colorado Clean Tech Industry 

6 Association. We're a non-profit trade 

7 association representing and partnering with over 

8 140 member companies, research institutions, 

9 service providers, investors, and more. Our 

10 members are involved in using all forms of 

11 energy, renewable and fossil, including water, 

12 waste, transportation, building technologies as 

13 efficiently as possible. We look at policy 

14 through the lens of the clean tech business 

15 community and innovation not as one technology or 

16 industry against one another.

17 I am here today in strong support of 

18 proposed 111(d) regulations. The Colorado clean 

19 tech business community has a variety of 

20 technologies to help not only the state but to 

21 export our technologies to other states and 

22 countries around the world.

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1 Colorado's robust clean tech community is 

2 developing the technologies of the future to 

3 allow for cleaner, safer, and more affordable 

4 energy solutions for all.

5 We represent companies and research 

6 institutions that can immediately assist in 

7 reducing greenhouse gas emissions in all the 

8 categories listed for state compliance, including 

9 renewable energy, demand side management, energy 

10 efficiency, natural gas efficiency, companies 

11 with technologies to make burning coal cleaner 

12 and more efficient.

13 While the devil is always in the details, 

14 when it comes to complex policy, we're going to 

15 recognize the importance of the emphasis on state 

16 specific solutions to deal with climate change 

17 and pollution. States and regions all have 

18 different resources and strengths and weaknesses 

19 with respect to their current energy generation 

20 portfolios.

21 We strongly feel that Colorado has a 

22 successful blueprint for reducing carbon while 

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1 using the following policies to create jobs in 

2 the technologies of the 21st century economy.

3 We have the Clean Air-Clean Jobs 

4 legislation to switch hundreds of megawatts of 

5 older coal plants to cleaner burning natural gas. 

6 We have a robust renewable energy standard which 

7 will be at 30 percent for investor-owned 

8 utilities and 20 percent for rural co-ops by 

9 2020; and we have strong energy efficiency and 

10 demand side management policies in place.

11 I want to touch briefly on the economic 

12 impacts of clean tech in Colorado. There's been 

13 a great deal of discussion here today about jobs 

14 and the potential impact these regulations will 

15 have on the employment landscape, and rightly so. 

16 However, the economic impact of clean tech in 

17 Colorado is one of the strongest in the nation. 

18 This is due in no small part to the forward 

19 thinking for all clean tech policies I have 

20 previously mentioned.

21 In 2012 the Metro Denver EDC released its 

22 Fourth Annual Resource Bridge to Colorado Report. 

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1 It estimated from 2007 to 2012 the clean tech 

2 sector's five-year growth -- job growth rate in 

3 Colorado was over 40 percent. That's compared 

4 with just under 14 percent nationwide.

5 Just this year they released their Fifth 

6 Annual Report. It continued to show growth in 

7 the clean tech sector. The clean tech sector in 

8 2013 employed over 22,000 employees in over 1,900 

9 different companies. The 2012 average salary for 

10 a clean tech worker is just under $80,000. These 

11 over 22,000 direct jobs support an additional 

12 55,000 indirect workers earning a combined $3.4 

13 billion annually.

14 There has been a lot of discussion about 

15 the cost of energy and what this potential impact 

16 of these regulations will have on the cost of 

17 energy. I think this is an important issue to 

18 discuss both for the business and residential 

19 community. What you're not hearing from 

20 opponents of this policy, they're not mentioning 

21 the real cost associated with burning fossil 

22 fuels. Right now the price for a kilowatt hour 

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1 for a coal fired power plant does not take into 

2 account the related adverse health effects, 

3 including respiratory issues like asthma, 

4 cancers, autism, widespread mercury contamination 

5 in our waterways and fisheries.

6 Not taking into account in our power 

7 bills is the cost of droughts, flood, fires 

8 related to climate change. If we took these 

9 factors truly into account, we would be having a 

10 very different discussion about the direct 

11 comparison within the cost of fossil and 

12 renewable energy.

13 I want to touch briefly on the historical 

14 perspective on issues such as 111(d). So much of 

15 the pushback we've heard on this issue are from 

16 industries making huge profits from the status 

17 quo regardless of the environmental impact. Many 

18 of the same industries and even the same 

19 individuals stated the same issues for prior 

20 policies, that these would destroy jobs and raise 

21 costs. We've heard the same arguments with the 

22 Clean Air Act, with CAFE standards for automobile 

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1 industry efficiency, the highly successful cap 

2 and trade program for sulfur dioxide in the early 

3 '90's to deal with acid rain. And right here in 

4 Colorado we heard similar arguments for the 

5 renewable energy standard. Our energy rates have 

6 not gone through the roof and our economy is 

7 thriving. We even have a clean tech industry 

8 that is a global leader and thinks that these 

9 policies along with cleaner air and water 

10 systems. Thank you for your time.

11 MS. MORALES: Thank you so much. Jaime 

12 Travis? Would you mind shutting off the other 

13 mike so that --

14 MS. TRAVIS: Oh, sorry. I --

15 MS. MORALES: -- you'll be able to talk 

16 into that one. Thank you.

17 MS. TRAVIS: Hi, my name is spelled 

18 J-A-I-M-E. Travis is T-R-A-V-I-S.

19 Like I said, my name's Jaime Travis, and 

20 I am the Head Mom of a group called Colorado Moms 

21 Know Best. We are a network of moms looking out 

22 for our children's health and well being by doing 

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1 our best to protect Colorado's air and outdoors 

2 for the health of our kids.

3 I'm here to thank you on behalf of my 

4 family, on behalf of thousands of moms across our 

5 state for your leadership in recommending a 

6 pathway to reduce harmful pollutants in the air 

7 our children breathe.

8 For those of you who are visitors to our 

9 state, I'm also here to welcome you to Colorado. 

10 I’m a Colorado native. In fact, I am -- my 

11 children are fifth generation Coloradans. I hope 

12 while you're visiting you will be able to take a 

13 little time to see our mountains, take a hike or 

14 bike ride and enjoy our beautiful state.

15 One thing you'll notice when talking to 

16 Coloradans is that we all love our home and our 

17 way of life. And there is no other place we want 

18 to be. We love and are very protective of our 

19 outdoors.

20 My husband, Pete, and I have two 

21 delightful kids, 7-year-old Jack and 5-year-old 

22 Luca. Like most young families in Colorado, we 

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1 spend the summer outside hiking and biking. And 

2 in the winter weekends are spent in Keystone 

3 doing our best to stay upright on skis which I 

4 generally fail at.

5 This summer my son Jack went to his first 

6 weeklong overnight camp in the mountains where he 

7 learned how to rock climb, mountain bike, went 

8 camping, and much to my dismay in all the 

9 pictures sent home, he wore the same T-shirt.

10 We feel very lucky to live here; however, 

11 just like most parents in our state I worry about 

12 their continued ability to spend their lives 

13 healthfully outdoors if action is not taken on 

14 curtailing the destructive carbon emissions 

15 produced across our country.

16 As adults we have an endemic 

17 responsibility to protect our children's health 

18 and well being. We know that increasing air 

19 pollution is putting our kids at higher risk for 

20 asthma and other lung diseases. In fact, in 

21 Colorado fully one-third of hospital visits by 

22 children are due to asthma and other lung-related 

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1 illnesses.

2 I, for one, am not willing to sacrifice 

3 the health of our children for profits. It is, 

4 in fact, possible to meet our energy needs while 

5 being good stewards of the place we all call 

6 home. That's why Colorado is leading the nation 

7 in cost effective renewable energy solutions that 

8 reduce our need for dirty power plants and why we 

9 are well positioned to meet the proposed carbon 

10 emission standards.

11 While this may only be the first step in 

12 ensuring our kids the ability to live healthy and 

13 productive lives, it is a huge step in the right 

14 direction. We all have a moral obligation to 

15 protect our kids. Therefore, on behalf of all 

16 the moms sending their children out to play, I 

17 ask that the proposed rules be adopted in total. 

18 We need strong rules to ensure our children don't 

19 pay the price with their health.

20 Thanks so much for your tireless efforts 

21 and for this opportunity to speak. Thanks.

22 MS. MORALES: Thank you.

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1 Currently we don't have any other people 

2 signed up to testify, so we will go on a break. 

3 So we will take a break till, like, 5:10. Thank 

4 you.

5 (Brief recess.)

6 MS. VIDETICH: Okay. I think we're going 

7 to go ahead and get started.

8 Good evening. My name is Callie 

9 Videtich, and I am one of the Chairs of today's 

10 public hearing. Thank you for coming in this 

11 evening.

12 Joining me on the panel tonight are Jenny 

13 Noonan and Nate McMichael. 

14 We're here this evening to listen to your 

15 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

16 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

17 of these proposed rules in June -- on June 2, 

18 2014. 

19 Power plants are the largest source of 

20 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

21 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

22 emissions. 

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1 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

2 Power Plan for existing power plants. This 

3 proposal consists of two main parts, state 

4 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

5 power plants and guidelines to help states 

6 develop their plans for meeting the goals.

7 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

8 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

9 choose what goes into their plans and show how 

10 they can achieve the needed reductions and meet 

11 their goals by 2030.

12 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

13 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

14 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

15 set emissions limits for two groups of power 

16 plants, those that make physical or operational 

17 changes that increase the power plant's maximum 

18 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

19 that replace components to such an extent that 

20 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

21 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

22 facility.

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1 If you would like more details on these 

2 -- on either of these proposed rules, there are 

3 fact sheets available near the registration desk.

4 Tonight's hearing is one of four public 

5 hearings across the country this week on the two 

6 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

7 in each of these hearings, and I'd like to thank 

8 you for taking the time out of your day today to 

9 join us and share your comments.

10 We have a lot of people signed up to 

11 speak, and we want to hear from you all. So 

12 before we get started, I'd like to go through a 

13 few housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

14 help make today's hearing run smoothly.

15 First, please be sure you have checked in 

16 at the registration desk even if you're not 

17 planning on speaking. And if you signed up to 

18 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

19 you're here, please step out to the registration 

20 desk and let EPA staff know that you've arrived.

21 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

22 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

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1 or B. This is Room A. Are you in the right 

2 room? If not, it's a good time to switch.

3 If you are not speaking this evening and 

4 the room is getting crowded, we have two 

5 additional set-up rooms for your convenience. 

6 Because of the large number of people who have 

7 signed up to speak today and to be fair to 

8 everyone, we are going to have to strictly 

9 enforce the five-minute limit.

10 If you have additional comments you would 

11 like to make, you can submit them in writing. 

12 Let me assure you that EPA gives such -- gives 

13 just as much consideration to comments we receive 

14 in writing as we do to comments we receive at 

15 public hearings like this one. So if you have 

16 more that you would like to say, please submit 

17 it. Your comments will be reviewed.

18 There's still plenty of time to get 

19 written comments in, and there are comment cards 

20 available at the registration desk. Comments 

21 must be received by October 16th, 2014.

22 We will put any written comments 

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1 submitted today in the official docket for the 

2 proposed rule. Instructions for submitting 

3 written comments in other ways are available at 

4 the materials table near the registration desk.

5 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

6 tonight. If you have any questions during the 

7 day, please see the staff at the registration 

8 desk, and someone will try and help you.

9 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

10 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

11 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

12 views in the audience, and we want to hear from 

13 all of you. So we can't do that and be fair to 

14 -- so we can do that and be fair to everyone, we 

15 ask that everyone listen quietly. Even applause 

16 can slow things down, and we want to hear from 

17 everyone who has signed up to speak. 

18 Thank you again for taking the time today 

19 to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules.

20 Let me say a few other things. Here's 

21 how today's hearing is going to work. I will 

22 call speakers up in pairs. When your name is 

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1 called, please come to the podiums at the front 

2 of the room. 

3 When I call you to speak, please state 

4 your name and spell it for the court reporter. 

5 Your comments will be transcribed and included in 

6 the record of comments on the proposed rule. 

7 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

8 give comments. We have a light to help you know 

9 how much time you have left to speak. When the 

10 light turns from green to yellow that means you 

11 have one minute remaining. When it turns red, 

12 that's the signal to wrap up your testimony.

13 The light will flash red and beep when 

14 you have spoken for five minutes and it's time to 

15 stop.

16 When you are finished speaking, please 

17 remain at the table podium until the person next 

18 to you has completed their testimony. We are 

19 here to listen to you today; however, a panel 

20 member may ask you questions to clarify your 

21 comments. 

22 Ii will then call upon the next pair of 

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1 speakers and so on. If you have brought a 

2 written copy of your testimony, please give that 

3 to the staff at the registration desk before you 

4 leave today. Thank you.

5 So the first speakers please today, Becky 

6 English and Chris Edmonds.

7 MS. NOONAN: Push your button and you're 

8 on. 

9 MS. VIDETICH: And when you're finished, 

10 turn yours off.

11 MR. EDMONDS: I'm Chris Edmonds, 

12 E-D-M-O-N-D-S. 

13 Curbing anthropocentric -- curbing 

14 anthropogenic climate change is an equity issue 

15 that disproportionally affects the most 

16 vulnerable among us. We live in an environment 

17 that is all of ours, so cutting our egregious 

18 abuses to our planet is something we can't afford 

19 to ignore economically, socially, spiritually, or 

20 communally. All over the world climate change is 

21 tearing communities apart, destroying homes and 

22 essential services, and taking lives.

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1 Anthropogenic emissions are proven -- are 

2 proven to virtual certainty to be causing 

3 devastating changes to our planet. Humans are 

4 causing the sixth extinction in our earth's 4.5

5 billion year history, although we've only been 

6 here less than one one hundredth of one percent 

7 of that time.

8 And we in this room deserve even more 

9 responsibility than that. We in the developed 

10 world have had the opportunity to grow our 

11 economies on the backs of the internal combustion 

12 engine and have the advantage of over more than 

13 100 years' head start.

14 Now the fruits of that economic engine's 

15 support everything we do, from the way we 

16 organize our cities to the way we bring food to 

17 our tables and the jobs we have to make ends 

18 meet.

19 Here we find ourselves in a unique 

20 position. After enjoying the effects of 

21 generations of emissions for so long, we now --

22 we not only have the responsibility to surge 

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1 forward on carbon cuts; we have the capability as 

2 well. In the U.S. and elsewhere in the developed 

3 world we have the assets for investment and the 

4 growing political will to act.

5 This is an equity issue for other 

6 organisms on this earth who we are forcing into 

7 extinction. It is an equity issue for people in 

8 the developing world who struggle with drought, 

9 starvation, violence, and instability exacerbated 

10 by climate change.

11 But closest to home this is an equity 

12 issue for those in our state and our cities who 

13 are already imperiled. As the EPA's fact sheet 

14 reads, children, the elderly, and the poor are 

15 the most vulnerable to a range of climate-related 

16 health effects, including those related to heat 

17 stress, air pollution, extreme weather events, 

18 and others.

19 I would take that a step further. The 

20 bottom line is that as fresh water and natural 

21 resources become scarce, as 100-year floods and 

22 fires occur every other year, it is the 

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1 vulnerable among us we seem to be content to 

2 offer as a sacrifice for the way we live. We 

3 must look beyond the short term growing pains in 

4 the mining industry and related activities to 

5 turn our attention to the exponentially higher 

6 pain and suffering we will cause in the next 

7 century if we hesitate to act.

8 It is those long-term victims who have 

9 the least capacity for adaptation and mitigation 

10 that we are most responsible to. It is our duty 

11 as activists and decision makers to lessen the 

12 risks to our most disadvantaged world citizens 

13 and our most under privileged Coloradans. 

14 In this spirit I submit this testimony 

15 with my strongest support for the EPA's proposed 

16 Clean Power Plan. Thank you.

17 MS. VIDETICH: If you would turn it off? 

18 MS. ENGLISH: Good evening, EPA 

19 representatives, and thank you very much for 

20 holding these hearings.

21 I am Becky English from Denver, Colorado. 

22 I serve as the Clean Energy Issue Specialist for 

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1 Colorado's chapter of the Sierra Club which is 

2 called the Rocky Mountain Chapter. And I serve 

3 on the Chapter's Executive Committee and on its 

4 Legislative Committee. And I'm also a delegate 

5 to the Council of Club Leaders. So I'm obviously 

6 a big believer in Sierra Club's approach to these 

7 kinds of issues. 

8 I also Chair the Policy Committee of the 

9 Colorado Renewable Energy Society or CRES, and 

10 I’m co-founder of a Boulder-based start-up called 

11 Swift Tram which is -- which will soon provide 

12 rapid transit for people and cargo. It's an 

13 elevated fixed guide way suspended coaches 

14 advanced transit system electrically powered that 

15 -- some are PV electrically powered, so it's 

16 cheaper than other -- cleaner, excuse me, than 

17 other rapid transit alternatives available today 

18 -- also cheaper.

19 All of us founders are committed to 

20 sustainability, and I'm speaking for my company 

21 as well.

22 I also have a sustainability consultancy 

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1 that was recently part of a project to analyze 

2 opportunities for deployment of renewable thermal 

3 energy from Colorado Department of Agriculture.

4 I'm here today to represent Sierra Club 

5 and CRES members and my various colleagues who 

6 can't be here, and to speak as one who 

7 understands the scale and type of challenge 

8 before us, the importance of weaning ourselves 

9 off the fossil fuels that drove the industrial 

10 age and to move with all possible haste to the 

11 renewable fuels and extreme energy efficiency 

12 that represent the only viable way forward for us 

13 to preserve the living systems that sustain life 

14 on our planet.

15 Specifically, I want to ask you to please 

16 delete support for nuclear energy from the Clean 

17 Power Plan. There is no need for nuclear power 

18 in a world where all the power we can ever use 

19 and then some comes screaming through our 

20 atmosphere as sunshine and wind every day.

21 The subsidies you encourage states to 

22 offer for aging uneconomic nuclear power plants 

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1 are misguided at best and would have dangerous or 

2 catastrophic results at the worst. As EPA itself 

3 points out, six percent of U.S. nuclear capacity 

4 is expected to close early over the next few 

5 years, which is about 5.7 gigawatts of 

6 electricity or less than one and a half percent 

7 of the nation's electricity supply. This is a 

8 very low level easily replaced with renewable 

9 energy resources.

10 I'm sure you understand that even though 

11 nuclear reactors have lower emissions on site, 

12 the life cycle for both carbon emissions and, of 

13 course, many other toxic and radioactive 

14 substances in the nuclear energy production cycle 

15 are sky high. All of that nastiness should stay 

16 underground forever.

17 Please include renewable thermal energy 

18 resources in your Clean Power Plan. Geothermal, 

19 solar thermal, thermal and power are derived from 

20 biomass and co-gen -- cogeneration. These are 

21 all renewable energy resources that have 

22 important contributions to make in the reduction 

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1 of carbon in our atmosphere.

2 Yes, the electricity sector is, of 

3 course, very important, but so is the heating and 

4 cooling sector. 

5 I'm disappointed that the proposed rule 

6 has settled on such a modest goal, 30 percent 

7 nationwide by 2030. Researchers have determined 

8 that a 50 percent reduction can be achieved by 

9 2030, 100 percent by 2050. We're in an emergency 

10 here and I'd like to see you follow this effort 

11 with considerably more aggressive rules very 

12 soon.

13 I want to let you know a little bit about 

14 the human fallout of greenhouse gas -- may I ask 

15 you, Nate, for my running time?

16 MR. MCMICHAEL: You have a minute and 5 

17 seconds left.

18 MS. ENGLISH: Then I'm going to skip the 

19 human impacts, and I'm going to -- thank you very 

20 much.

21 So I have a number of friends who are 

22 suffering from illnesses related to toxics in our 

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1 atmosphere, the ozone that is trapped. I have 

2 athletic friends who can't run anymore in the 

3 mornings because of the ozone that's caused by 

4 CO2 in the atmosphere.

5 I'm going to skip those in the interest 

6 of time and jump to a couple of other concerns. 

7 I won't dignify the howls over loss of jobs in 

8 the mining industry with a response except to say 

9 make a job transition plan if your job is 

10 associated with making people sick and killing 

11 those who are already vulnerable.

12 I invite anyone here who's concerned 

13 about jobs to join the Colorado Renewable Energy 

14 Society and learn how to make a decent living 

15 transitioning families and schools and commercial 

16 buildings to a clean renewable energy and to 

17 dramatically improve energy efficiency. It's a 

18 sector that's growing in double digits annually, 

19 the kind of work that lets you sleep peacefully 

20 at night -- or join Sierra Club and work for 

21 clean energy, clean ecosystems, and viable way 

22 forward.

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1 I just also want to say in closing that 

2 thermal pollution such as is caused by CO2 

3 accumulation is pollution. And so, of course 

4 it's within your purview. I encourage EPA to 

5 remember your mission and keep pushing the 

6 envelope. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you. Next, please, 

8 Zach Owens and Jeff Neuman-Lee.

9 You have to turn the other one off, 

10 please. Thank you.

11 MR. OWENS: Is this on? Okay. I'll 

12 start.

13 Hello, my name is Zach Owens. I am a 

14 Denver native, and I am the Program Strategist 

15 with the Alliance for a Sustainable Colorado. We 

16 own and operate the Alliance Center just across 

17 the street from the EPA Region Offices here. I 

18 want to thank the EPA for your efforts on the 

19 Clean Power Plan. 

20 When I was in college about five or six 

21 years ago in my general chemistry -- I was a 

22 biochemistry major -- the teachers introduced 

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1 climate change to me, and it really changed my 

2 life. I realized that the emissions that my 

3 decisions were making here in Colorado were 

4 impacting the oceans. Ocean acidification was a 

5 big topic of the class as introduced through Le 

6 Chatelier's principle. 

7 Essentially we are putting so much carbon 

8 dioxide in the atmosphere that it was equalizing 

9 by putting additional carbonic acid into the 

10 oceans. And it was having an impact on the coral 

11 reefs.

12 Here I am a Denver native driving my 

13 truck having a huge impact on the coral reefs, 

14 and I felt compelled to do something about it. 

15 And so I've been advocating for efforts to 

16 address global climate change and the human 

17 causes of climate change for my entire young 

18 professional career. And as a result I want to 

19 express my extreme support for the EPA and your 

20 Clean Power Plan.

21 By cleaning up and modernizing power 

22 plants we will begin to clean up our air, reduce 

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1 pollution-related illness, and curb the worst 

2 effects of climate disruption. 

3 I also will echo what Becky English said 

4 and encourage you to strengthen the standard. At 

5 the Alliance for a Sustainable Colorado our 

6 statewide network, the Colorado Sustainability 

7 Collaborative has adopted the Colorado Climate 

8 Action Plan which calls for an 80 percent 

9 reduction in greenhouse gas emissions below 2005 

10 levels by 2050. I would urge the EPA to work 

11 with scientists to consider similar reductions 

12 for coal fired power plants.

13 Finally, I want to say other states can 

14 learn from Colorado. Colorado can really be a 

15 model for how other states work to develop their 

16 plans once, you know, the rules are finalized in 

17 other states are to develop their implementation 

18 strategies. In Colorado we prioritize energy 

19 efficiency. We implement renewable energy 

20 standards both for investor-owned utilities and 

21 for rural co-ops.

22 And finally we steer away from nuclear 

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1 energy. I also would advocate for not using 

2 nuclear energy as a strategy to steer us away 

3 from fossil fuels.

4 I want to thank the EPA for the 

5 opportunity to speak, and I invite you to join us 

6 at the Alliance Center across the street to learn 

7 about additional energy efficiency measures that 

8 other buildings can implement as a strong 

9 strategy for reducing our demand on fossil fuels. 

10 Thank you.

11 MR. NEUMAN-LEE: My name is Jeff Neuman12 Lee. I am a resident of Denver, Colorado, and a 

13 pastor in the Faith of Jesus Christ.

14 There's a document that addresses the 

15 real physical reality of our greenhouse gas 

16 pollution in the EPA paper proposing standards 

17 for the reduction of electrical generation is a 

18 failure. The EPA goal of nationally reducing 

19 those CO2 emissions by 30 percent by 2030 gambles 

20 with our actual world climate situation. If 

21 these goals are fully enacted as stated without 

22 radical improvement, there is a great possibility 

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1 that we doom our children to a hot chaotic 

2 global-civilization-threatening climate.

3 Where does this 30 percent reduction 

4 number come from? That 30 percent is the number 

5 which may in combination with other White House 

6 actions such as changes to the mileage of cars 

7 help the United States reduce its greenhouse 

8 gases by 17 percent by 20 percent as the 

9 President promised in 2009, but where does that 

10 17 percent number come from?

11 As far as I can see, it is a number based 

12 simplicity on what CO2 might do on its own 

13 without regard to other systemic multiplier 

14 effects. This imposes the adequacy of trajectory 

15 toward a worldwide 80 percent reduction of CO2 by 

16 2050.

17 These numbers are highly risky. We are 

18 betting that we know more than we do. They might 

19 be too aggressive, but with the climate changes 

20 we have so far experienced, it seems that they 

21 are a frivolous gamble with our future.

22 At the same time, the document doubles 

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1 down on the greenhouse advantages of natural gas. 

2 However, the advantages of burning natural gas 

3 over burning coal, while well documented and may 

4 be utterly negated by fugitive methane.

5 At the same time the 17 percent of 2020 

6 goal neglects the several pressures that are now 

7 put upon our oceans by our continued releasing of 

8 greenhouse gases.

9 NREL has demonstrated that using current 

10 technology we can move to an 80 percent reduction 

11 of greenhouse gases in our electrical generation. 

12 That's current technology.

13 Since the technology is now at hand, the 

14 timeline becomes not one of development but one 

15 of deployment -- the speeding of deployment.

16 With new technologies arriving with 

17 regularity and the costs of reducing our 

18 greenhouse gases decreasing in some cases even 

19 below the subsidized level of rates of the fossil 

20 fuels they're replacing, deployment will be 

21 initially disruptive but wealth-enhancing for 

22 generations to come.

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1 While nothing is sure, we should 

2 aggressively work with current and new technology 

3 to end the use of fossil fuels for the generation 

4 of electricity by 2030. Let me reiterate. 

5 That's 100 percent by 2030.

6 As more and more of our transportation 

7 sector is fueled by electricity, that sector also 

8 will become more green. There would be hurdles, 

9 of course, but with such an aggressive goal, we 

10 can move father and first to create the new 

11 energy technology. We can do this because we are 

12 the United States of America.

13 The reality is that fossil fuel is a 

14 poison not so much in small concentrations but in 

15 the concentrations that the world is emitting 

16 today, it really is poison, and we should regard 

17 it as such. We should see it for the reality. 

18 The United States can give leadership to 

19 the world, and I can't imagine that the world 

20 making -- making these necessary changes without 

21 the United States giving real true leadership. 

22 So far we've been dragging. Do you think the 

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1 world's going to follow Germany? No, they're 

2 going to follow the United States.

3 Now, as a pastor I -- I need to speak to 

4 the many people who claim to follow Jesus Christ 

5 as their Lord, and I don't presume to speak to 

6 anyone else. Jesus calls us to love our neighbor 

7 and even our enemy. This love is not simply 

8 sentimental, neither is it simply spiritual with 

9 a mutual hope for life beyond death; it is a real 

10 concrete love based in reality.

11 To deny that climate change science is 

12 out of hand without really testing it, to call it 

13 a conspiracy is paranoid delusion and as such not 

14 of the God of truth. Denial creates a false us 

15 against them --

16 (Buzzer sounded.)

17 MR. NEUMAN-LEE: -- when we really are 

18 all in this together. Which will it be? Will we 

19 followers of Jesus Christ hand our children a 

20 stone or a fish? 

21 MS. VIDETICH: Next, please, Matt 

22 Hamilton and Leslie Glustrom? If you could 

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1 please say your name and spell your last name, 

2 please, for the recorder?

3 MR. HAMILTON: Sure.

4 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you. Hang on a sec. 

5 Why don’t I go ahead then and call Deanne 

6 Butterfield at this time. Thank you.

7 MR. HAMILTON: My name is Matthew 

8 Hamilton, H-A-M-I-L-T-O-N, and I’m the 

9 Sustainability Director for the Aspen Skiing 

10 Company. I want to thank all of you for spending 

11 your evening. I know it's been a long day, and 

12 thank you for your time.

13 Testifying today is really the next step 

14 in a process that began for the Aspen Skiing 

15 Company in 2007 when we were one of three 

16 companies to file an amicus brief on 

17 Massachusetts versus the EPA, a case that brings 

18 us really to the point we are today.

19 Aspen Skiing Company supports the 

20 adoption of EPA's Clean Power Plan because clean 

21 power is good for economy, our health, our 

22 environment, and our community's future. Aspen 

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1 Skiing Company operates 4 ski areas, 13 

2 restaurants, 2 hotels, 12 retail outlets, and 

3 manages hundreds of employee housing beds. We 

4 employ 3,500 people in the winter and 900 year 

5 round.

6 Success -- our success of the Aspen 

7 Skiing Company is directly linked to the larger 

8 success of the Roaring Fork Valley where we're 

9 based and where our employees live. 

10 Since 1949 we have seen an increase in 

11 the number of frost-free days, meaning there are 

12 fewer days of below freezing temperatures where 

13 we can make snow. Without snow making, our 

14 season would be shortened to the degree that our 

15 viability would be threatened. 

16 Recently the United States Department of 

17 Agriculture placed Aspen in the same climactic 

18 zone as Carbondale, a place locals affectionately 

19 refer to as the Banana Belt and my home 2,000 

20 feet lower.

21 Left unabated, rising greenhouse gas 

22 emissions are predicted to transition Aspen to a 

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1 climate similar to that of Amarillo, Texas, by 

2 2100. Aspen Skiing Company is focused on 

3 reducing its energy cost by increasing 

4 efficiency, supporting low carbon energy sources 

5 and actively engaging our elected officials to 

6 develop policies that incur smart, sensible 

7 energy policy.

8 We seek to reduce our carbon footprint by 

9 25 percent by 2020. We've achieved a 3.5 percent 

10 reduction to date while business has grown, 

11 adding hotels, lifts, and restaurants. We 

12 distribute monthly energy reports that highlight 

13 specific accounts with abnormal usage and have 

14 invested in LED lighting, building automation 

15 systems, improved the HVAC systems and many other 

16 energy efficiency measures.

17 We've installed over 170 kilowatts of 

18 solar panels, 115 kilowatt micro hydro system, 

19 and pond-based heat pumps. We track our 

20 footprint since 2000 and make that information 

21 available to the public. 

22 We actively support the work of Protect 

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1 Our Winters and Businesses for Innovative Climate 

2 and Energy Policy. Almost two years ago we 

3 completed a three megawatt electricity plant at 

4 the Elk Creek Coal Mine in Somerset, Colorado. 

5 This $6 million plant produces 24,000 megawatts 

6 of electricity annually equivalent to our usage 

7 and reduces carbon dioxide emissions by 96,000 

8 tons.

9 Our local utility purchases the 

10 attributes of this energy, so while we -- we're 

11 not offsetting our consumption, our investment in 

12 this plant brings online a low carbon energy 

13 sources melding the coal mining industry with 

14 efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

15 We are working to hire our first energy 

16 manager as we realize that energy efficiency 

17 improvements are critical but only as good as the 

18 day-to-day management of those buildings. An 

19 energy manager will allow us to provide an active 

20 energy manger for our 250 plus buildings. 

21 Throughout all this work we have 

22 recognized the single most influential factor in 

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1 our ability to meet our 2020 energy goal is the 

2 fuel mix that our utilities choose to supply our 

3 operations. To that end we've worked hard to 

4 encourage our local utility to shift its energy 

5 portfolio towards low carbon sources much as the 

6 Clean Power Plan does throughout the United 

7 States.

8 We are pleased to see EPA's proposed rule 

9 allows individual states to utilize a number of 

10 flexible strategies to comply with the proposed 

11 standard. We specifically applaud the inclusion 

12 of renewable energy and energy efficiency 

13 measures as a means of compliance.

14 We are deeply concerned at the pace of 

15 progress by legislators, companies, and the 

16 public towards stabilizing global temperatures 

17 has been dangerously slow. The Clean Power Plan 

18 rules represent an important action that is 

19 needed now. Aspen Skiing Company understands the 

20 importance of clean power and encourages EPA to 

21 adopt this groundbreaking regulatory approach to 

22 maintain rural tours and based economies 

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1 throughout the country. Thanks for your time.

2 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you. Matt, if you'd 

3 --

4 MR. HAMILTON: Yes.

5 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you.

6 MS. BUTTERFIELD: Push?

7 MS. VIDETICH: Please. Thank you.

8 MS. BUTTERFIELD: Here we are. Thank 

9 you.

10 I'm Deanne Butterfield. I live in 

11 Boulder, Colorado, and I’m the President or Clerk 

12 of the Friends Committee on National Legislation 

13 which is the Public Policy Ministry of the 

14 Religious Society of Friends, the Quakers.

15 We recognize that climate change is one 

16 of the greatest and most urgent challenges of our 

17 time. We are moved by the Copenhagen Accord and 

18 Global Scientific Consensus that links man-made 

19 greenhouse gas emissions to climate disruption.

20 Leaders in business, leaders in faith 

21 like Pope Francis and the Dalai Lama, governors, 

22 mayors, the U.S. military, the World Bank, all 

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1 find climate change to be a grave challenge 

2 requiring urgent action.

3 In this light the proposed EPA rules are 

4 a very modest beginning in the right direction. 

5 Reducing greenhouse gases from the electric power 

6 sector is a welcome step forward, and we 

7 generally support this rule.

8 There is a fundamental moral 

9 justification for taking action on greenhouse 

10 gases. The ultimate challenge is not just about 

11 energy but about humanity, future generations, 

12 and the earth which sustains us. It tests our 

13 courage to face our survival. As Pope Francis 

14 said, if we destroy creation, it destroys us.

15 All the action on carbon pollution is a 

16 moral imperative. While regulatory actions by 

17 EPA and the states are essential to respond to 

18 the challenges of carbon reduction, the compass 

19 needle must be far more focused in the direction 

20 of a no carbon future. We need to set an 

21 effective sustainable trajectory today to reduce 

22 greenhouse gas emissions as much and as fast as 

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1 possible. 

2 The four building blocks that we start 

3 with should be used to continuously and 

4 aggressively reduce emissions over time, not a 

5 static goal that unnecessarily retains fossil 

6 fuels in the long-term mix.

7 If the issue was framed in terms of 

8 energy supply, we often hear all of the above. 

9 The moral response as laid out by the IPCC is to 

10 rapidly move to an economy where all of the above 

11 means the pursuit of energy sources, uses, and 

12 strategies that result in little or no emissions 

13 of carbon or other greenhouse gases.

14 We can do this while protecting human 

15 health and ecosystems, being economically 

16 efficient and without damaging communities or the 

17 poor. These approaches also provide jobs and 

18 economic stability to our communities. It's not 

19 about picking winners and losers in the energy 

20 sector, but it's about we the people supporting 

21 life sustaining solutions over the burning of 

22 fossil fuels and increasing emissions of 

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1 greenhouse gases.

2 When states and the EPA consider costs, 

3 this calculation must include the cost of 

4 inaction or timidity. Colorado is already facing 

5 extreme climate events -- fires, floods, crop 

6 damage, drought, species extinction with hundreds 

7 of millions of dollars in looses and damages. 

8 You look at this nationwide or worldwide. It far 

9 surpasses any costs that we might incur as a 

10 society in reducing our emissions.

11 The best system of emission reduction 

12 today may be surpassed by other strategies in a 

13 few years, and the plans must be dynamic to 

14 account for innovation, changes in public will, 

15 and changes in government.

16 As has been mentioned, the residents of 

17 Colorado have demonstrated through our voter 

18 approved renewable energy standard and the Clean 

19 Air-Clean Jobs Act that you can have carbon 

20 reduction, quality of life, and economic vitality 

21 all together. We are on track in Colorado to hit 

22 our 30 percent reduction from 2005 levels by 

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1 2020, again, with a strong -- with a strong 

2 economy.

3 (Buzzer sounded.)

4 MS. BUTTERFIELD: These rules need to 

5 incentivize energy efficiency, demand reduction,

6 and rapid maximum development and use of 

7 renewable energy sources. Such a shift is a 

8 moral, social, economic, and environmental 

9 imperative. Let's show the world the U.S. is 

10 serious about our responsibilities to slow the 

11 pace of climate change. This is a modest but 

12 important first step. Thank you.

13 MS. VIDETICH: Next, please, Deborah 

14 Taylor and Jason Crow.

15 MS. TAYLOR: We sit down?

16 MS. VIDETICH: Yes. Thank you.

17 MS. TAYLOR: I hadn't planned to speak 

18 today. I was hoping to do it tomorrow, and I did 

19 not bring in any research notes, so I’m going to 

20 talk about something more personal.

21 On the worst of Denver's high pollution 

22 days I used to be a very active walker, taking 

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1 pets for walks, take my children out, and I more 

2 often than not found myself having to go to the 

3 doctor because I had a runny nose, sore throat, 

4 breathing problems, and she'd say, oh, you're 

5 like the 10th one I've seen in today. It's a 

6 high pollution day.

7 Grant it a lot of that's been alleviated 

8 with better pollution control in the Denver Metro 

9 area. It does not take it all away. I do have 

10 those problems sometimes, and I do see my doctor, 

11 and she tells me and other people who are here,

12 that there's high pollution days that affect a 

13 lot of people. They affect my grandchildren; 

14 they affect my niece and nephew, and it's not 

15 just -- it does not seem right.

16 I try to avoid going -- you know, when I 

17 travel going to cities that have high pollutions, 

18 and actually one of my favorite places is the 

19 countryside or Africa. Anyway, I thought that I 

20 would bring that up.

21 The health care problems that high 

22 pollution presents is -- it's a no-win situation. 

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1 And it's not affecting just poor people. I 

2 travel a lot and I take pictures. I'm a member 

3 of the Audubon Society, the Sierra Club, a few 

4 other places, but I take pictures of heavy high 

5 pollution haze days where birds are sitting on 

6 wires and they seem so little.

7 And I've asked biologists, and they go, 

8 well, you know, it affects birds, too. It 

9 affects people. It affect wildlife. One of the 

10 most beautiful countries in the world --

11 Germany's a very good country. They have 

12 beautiful rooftop windmills. And people can 

13 provide their own power, and I'd like to see more 

14 of that. You know, I just wish that America 

15 could be the America that we read about in the --

16 in the '40's. And, you know, I'm hoping that 

17 this EPA is the EPA that was out there when I was 

18 growing up when you saved our rivers and I lived 

19 at the shores of Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin, and 

20 they used to have the whitefish floating in dead 

21 because the Michigan was so polluted for a while 

22 and then got cleaned up.

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1 I'm just hoping that something can be 

2 done, that you can follow the -- well, the 

3 proposed guidelines can get passed. I like the 

4 fact that, you know, it can be state dependent, 

5 and I hope more states and more people will come 

6 forward with all of this.

7 I don't have five minutes worth and I 

8 wish I had brought in my research but, it's very 

9 important, and I'm sure that if more and more 

10 doctors had the time and the energy, they would 

11 come forward and talk about the health needs. So 

12 thank you.

13 MR. CROW: Good evening. My name is 

14 Jason Crow, and I’m an attorney here in Denver, 

15 but I'm also a former Captain in the U.S. Army. 

16 Thank you for the opportunity to testify today to 

17 discuss the security threats that climate change 

18 poses to the American way of life.

19 Carbon standards proposed in the Clean 

20 Power Plan will make us a safer nation while 

21 promoting global stability and economic 

22 opportunity. I had the distinct honor of 

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1 fighting alongside some of the best men and women 

2 in this country during three combat tours in Iraq 

3 and Afghanistan as an Army Ranger. And I have 

4 seen firsthand how climate change can threaten 

5 our national security, and I believe we can and 

6 must confront this as Coloradans and as 

7 Americans.

8 I joined the military to protect my 

9 county just as those who came before me. Our 

10 greatest generation defended Europe from 

11 approaching tyranny during World War II, and in 

12 the wake of the war America's leadership helped 

13 rebuild a world that had held democracy and 

14 freedom.

15 The men and women of that generation 

16 upheld the ideals that make this country great. 

17 And in doing so they understood that our fate is 

18 tied to the fate of other nations. Climate 

19 change is the silent enemy in one 

20 of the defining struggles of this century 

21 defending vulnerable populations from extremism. 

22 In Iraq and Afghanistan I saw firsthand how 

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1 displaced populations and economic instability 

2 gave rise to extremism in many forms.

3 Climate change exacerbates every struggle 

4 and challenge to global security and prosperity 

5 with rising sea levels, resource scarcities, and 

6 the increased frequency and intensity of extreme 

7 weather events like droughts, floods, and storms 

8 climate change contributes to instability from 

9 the Middle East to Africa to the Pacific Rim.

10 At a recent speech to the graduating 

11 cadets of West Point President Obama called 

12 climate change -- quote -- a creeping national 

13 security crisis that will help shape your time in 

14 uniform as we're called on to respond to refugee 

15 flows, natural disasters, and conflicts over 

16 water and food -- end quote.

17 In a recent study released by retired 

18 senior military officers they called climate 

19 change a catalyst for conflict. Climate change 

20 threatens to destabilize some of the most 

21 volatile regions of the world. And as extremism 

22 naturally finds a foothold in unstable 

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1 communities that face environmental stressors and 

2 weak governments, climate change could be a 

3 tipping point as severe weather events destroy 

4 critical infrastructure, exacerbate poor living 

5 conditions, and worsen political instability.

6 You can look to recent and ongoing crisis 

7 in places like Syria, Nigeria, and Pakistan to 

8 how a confluence of factors exacerbated by 

9 climate impacts have created hot spots for 

10 extremist groups.

11 And one thing that we as a nation have 

12 learned over the last 15 years instability 

13 anywhere can have a direct impact on our security 

14 at home. Climate change isn't just a risk 

15 abroad; it poses a direct threat to our national 

16 security at home.

17 Building, strengthening, and leading the 

18 international community towards active response 

19 in the face of global challenges have been the 

20 bedrock of American strategy since 1945. This is 

21 an issue that copies all within our borders. 

22 Although there is little doubt that America 

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1 currently has or ever had the capacity to act 

2 alone, there is no other nation prepared or 

3 positioned to assume the responsibility of being 

4 a catalyst for global action.

5 The EPA's Clean Power Plan is a positive 

6 first step forward towards continuing the 

7 American legacy of global leadership. The world 

8 is watching, and they are waiting to see if this 

9 is just a blip or if the American people are 

10 truly committed to taking this issue seriously. 

11 Thank you for your time.

12 MS. VIDETICH: Next, please, Jenny Gubrud

13 and Josh Phillips. If you could please state 

14 your name and spell your last name, please, for 

15 the --

16 MS. GUBRUD: My name is Jenny -- I'm 

17 sorry?

18 MS. VIDETICH: Press the button. There 

19 you go. Thank you.

20 MS. GUBRUD: My name is Jenny Gubrud. 

21 And it's spelled G-U-B-R-U-D.

22 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you.

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1 MS. GUBRUD: I am here today because I 

2 think it's a citizen's duty to try to counter the 

3 influence -- the undue influence of reinvestment 

4 of profits in our government and buying influence 

5 in the government. And I think the EPA's carbon 

6 rule is a first step in regulating coal emissions 

7 and coal emissions are causing not only -- not 

8 only global warming but also acidification in the 

9 oceans, numerous health effects where they are in 

10 large concentrate -- where they're in heavy 

11 concentrations and simply unnecessary because the 

12 technology exists. There needs to be actually 

13 legislation in order for clean coal to become 

14 something that actually exists.

15 The coal companies like to talk about 

16 clean coal. Let's make them actually make clean 

17 power -- as clean as it can be made using coal as 

18 long a coal is a necessary part of the energy 

19 picture.

20 And that's really all I have to say. I 

21 feel like the influence of money in our 

22 government is excessive and that we should do --

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1 all do all that we can to let science and civic 

2 mindedness prevail over simple, bottom line 

3 concerns. The real bottom line is clean air. So 

4 --

5 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you. Jenny, if 

6 you'd please turn your microphone off? Thank 

7 you.

8 MR. PHILLIPS: Hi, I'm Josh Phillips, and 

9 it's P-H-I-L-L-I-P-S. I'm here this evening --

10 thank you so much for taking the time to listen 

11 to our public comments here today. But I’m here 

12 because I really believe that climate change is 

13 the defining issue of my generation. And I'm 

14 here today because, you know, in light of the 

15 most recent National Climate Assessment that was 

16 released that shows it's really that climate 

17 change is already happening, that we are already 

18 feeling the impacts of climate change 

19 particularly here in Colorado. 

20 When you look at extreme weather events, 

21 like extreme drought that we are just coming out 

22 of now, we are seeing reduced snow pack and real 

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1 impacts from some of the more extreme weather 

2 like the floods that we saw in Boulder just last 

3 year. Increasing ozone pollution and air 

4 pollution as a result of rising temperatures and 

5 we're already seeing some of the health impacts 

6 from the increased ozone, ecological impacts like 

7 forest fires and even actually the increase in 

8 bark beetles that we're seeing with increased 

9 mating seasons and the ability for these beetles 

10 to rise to the higher elevations because of the 

11 rising temperatures and crop damage, agricultural 

12 impacts that we're seeing in the lowering of 

13 yields and the loss of crops due to some of these 

14 extreme weather events.

15 And so with that I think, you know, I 

16 just want to start by thanking the EPA for taking 

17 the step of releasing the draft of the Clean 

18 Power Plan. It's certainly an exciting step but 

19 it's one that we have been waiting for since the 

20 EPA versus Massachusetts decision since we were 

21 granted the authority to regulate carbon 

22 pollution under the Clean Air Act. And so it's a 

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1 huge first step forward, a critical first step, 

2 and I think one that I'm excited to see so many 

3 folks here today testifying and recognizing that 

4 this is a huge step forward in the fight against 

5 climate change. And I hope that we can continue 

6 to take steps forward because I think we're 

7 really lucky here in Colorado to live in a state 

8 that has taken several steps to combat climate 

9 change already.

10 We were actually recognized in the draft 

11 regulation about 11 times, I believe, referencing 

12 specific programs that Colorado has pursued to 

13 reduce our carbon pollution -- and so very 

14 specifically, when you look at renewable energy. 

15 I mean Colorado has been a national leader. We 

16 have the second most ambitious renewable 

17 portfolio standard in the country. And that was 

18 passed actually originally by the people in 2004. 

19 I think folks forget that year that Colorado 

20 actually voted for President George W. Bush in 

21 2004, and at the same time we approved the first 

22 ever citizens-passed renewable energy standard. 

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1 So it is a majority of Coloradans who certainly 

2 support a move to cleaner, renewable energy.

3 And since then we've moved through the 

4 legislature to increase that renewable energy 

5 standard three times. And we now have a 

6 statewide standard of 30 percent for our largest 

7 utilities and 20 percent for our smaller rural 

8 electric co-ops and rural electric associations.

9 And so, we're really a leader nationally 

10 on renewable energy, and we've seen over 16,000 

11 jobs created in the state as well. And so when 

12 you talk about jobs, I really think it's a false 

13 frame that we often find ourselves in when we 

14 talk about the jobs of the past that might be 

15 going away, but there really are booming 

16 industries that Colorado in particular has been a

17 leader on. And we've seen that we can actually 

18 have a net increase in jobs as we move to the 

19 clean energy economy.

20 The next step is energy efficiency. 

21 Really the kind of most common sense way 

22 obviously, you know, a penny saved is a penny 

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1 earned. And I think you can say the same about a 

2 kilowatt hour as well. And that since we passed 

3 our renewable ACR energy efficiency standard in 

4 Colorado in 2007, we have saved over $900 million 

5 on our electric bills as consumers because of the 

6 energy improvements we've seen from the 

7 residential level all the way to the utility 

8 scale level.

9 And then finally, the Clean Air-Clean 

10 Jobs Act passed in 2010 which began the process 

11 of phasing out some of our dirtiest coal plants 

12 here in Colorado as we know that coal is having 

13 these impacts both on our climate as well as on 

14 our health. And so we've taken serious steps now 

15 to move away from coal and move towards our 

16 cleaner sources of fuel.

17 And so I think, you know, the fact that 

18 Colorado has been such a leader, it is a, you 

19 know, recipe for other states to comply with the 

20 Clean Power Plan. I think the EPA was brilliant 

21 in the way that you have tailored the plans of 

22 specific states, both in the emissions targets as 

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1 well as the path to comply with the plan allows 

2 us to choose from all of these different types of 

3 programs, and we've seen great success in these 

4 programs here in Colorado and real leadership in 

5 moving away from coal and towards other sources 

6 of energy.

7 And so I think I'd just like to close 

8 with I actually just moved out to Colorado just 

9 over a year ago myself. I never plan on leaving. 

10 I love the spirit of the west. I love the 

11 outdoor opportunities that it affords, and I just 

12 want to continue to work to try to protect all of 

13 our outdoor resources, our outdoor heritage here 

14 in Colorado. And I think that the -- the 

15 pioneering spirit of the west is something that 

16 really can spill over into our energy mix as well 

17 as we pioneer new renewable energy and energy 

18 efficiency technologies that will power us into 

19 the future. So thank you for your time, and 

20 thank you for proposing the Clean Power Plan.

21 MS. VIDETICH: Next, please, K. K. 

22 Duvivier, and Rebecca Pierce.

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1 MS. PIERCE: I'll be really short.

2 MS. VIDETICH: If you'd please say your 

3 name, spell your last name, please for the 

4 reporter?

5 MS. PIERCE: P-I-E-R-C-E.

6 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you.

7 MS. PIERCE: I'll keep it really short. 

8 I agree with the decreasing carbon 

9 emissions by 30 percent or more. I would love to 

10 see some strong incentive to get this done. 

11 Mandatory efficiency levels, and investing in new 

12 technologies, I think we can do it very easily if 

13 we put our mind to it.

14 MS. DUVIVIER: That one was short and 

15 sweet and hard to compete with. I figured this 

16 time of night you needed something to break 

17 things up so I'm wearing my hardhat, but I’m 

18 wearing it partially -- my name is K. K. 

19 Duvivier, D-U-V-I-V-I-E-R, and I'm wearing this 

20 hardhat to show the two sides that I hope that I 

21 represent.

22 First, I'm an energy geek and an expert. 

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1 I am a tenured law professor at the University of 

2 Denver, College of Law with a specialty in 

3 energy. I also was a Natural Resources a 

4 attorney and a geologist before law school. So 

5 once a geologist, always a geologist at least for 

6 me. Hickenlooper always says he's a recovering 

7 geologist, but I’m always a geologist.

8 And so I was delighted last year to 

9 participate in the Colorado School of Mines 

10 Energy and Minerals Field Institute last year 

11 which meant that I got -- I was able to visit the 

12 mine mouth coal plant in Craig, Colorado, and

13 going around at Bowie which is a long wall mining 

14 operation. So I don't have anything personally 

15 against coal. I actually am fascinated by 

16 geology.

17 But I’m also coming today as -- take my 

18 hat off -- as a mother of a child who had to use 

19 an inhaler because we lived near a coal fire 

20 power plant while she was growing up, and I'm a 

21 soon-to-be grandmother, and I’m hoping for 

22 something better for the next generation.

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1 So, I just thought -- I've authored a 

2 book called The Renewable Energy Reader. I -- I 

3 gave you just a copy of the cover in there.

4 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you.

5 MS. DIVIVIER: I do like renewable 

6 energy. I'm also writing a book on energy law 

7 for LexisNexis. And even though I try to keep an 

8 objective focus because I want my students to see 

9 all sides, I couldn't help but notice in my 

10 research that fossil fuels have over time and 

11 they continue to have an incredible advantage 

12 with respect to subsidies, and in this case the 

13 avoidance of externalities.

14 And shifting the cost of the detrimental 

15 externalities such as carbon to those who didn't 

16 produce them creates -- distorts the market and 

17 also stalls the development of cleaner 

18 alternatives.

19 So I do think fossil fuels are a great 

20 thing. They really help civilization, but 

21 they've been on a free ride for too long, and we 

22 really can't let that continue. So I’m very 

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1 excited.

2 And one of the issues that I wanted to 

3 raise is the economics. So, in here I did -- I 

4 have a cartoon that I just really love about the 

5 externalities but also I just copied some of the 

6 materials from the proposed rule because I’m a 

7 law professor I actually had to read it. 

8 And one of the things that stuck out to 

9 me were Tables 1 and 2 where they talk about the 

10 monetized benefits of these rules. So when 

11 anyone tells you that it's going to cost a lot 

12 more --

13 MS. VIDETICH: Step back a little. 

14 That's it.

15 MR. DUVIVIER: Okay. Sorry. 

16 That it's going to cost a lot more than 

17 actually these figures that the EPA did show 

18 billions of dollars, 27 to over 80 billion in 

19 2020 and 2030 are the benefits of these changes 

20 depending on which scenario you follow.

21 So there are significant justifications 

22 for it, but I also think that the EPA's approach 

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1 was very good -- the four building blocks, you 

2 know, recognizing that power plants that are as 

3 old as I am or close are not going to be the most 

4 efficient and that we ought to be upgrading those 

5 and then when we can, doing what Colorado has 

6 done is shifting to lower emitting fossil fuels. 

7 I think that's a great step and then trying to 

8 encourage renewable energy which we've also been 

9 doing in Colorado, and I hope that nationwide we 

10 would do more of that.

11 And, finally, energy efficiency which is 

12 something that my husband and I, we won the 

13 Colorado Renewable Energy Society Award for 

14 Efficient Home. There's so much more we could do 

15 with efficiency. And so that's not a hard step, 

16 and it's a very cost effective step, so EPA's 

17 encouraging these four approaches I think is 

18 excellent, and their goals are very achievable. 

19 They got a lot of information at the offset to 

20 propose the rules and under 11(d) I'll be a 

21 little bit technical as a lawyer costs couldn't 

22 be considered, and you have to have technical 

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1 feasibility, but EPA showed that they can do 

2 that, and these are very conservative goals. So 

3 they're not over reaching.

4 And finally, allowing the federal, state 

5 partnership I think is excellent because every 

6 state can do energy efficiency and many states 

7 underestimate the amount of renewables they have.

8 So I want to thank you again for sticking 

9 it out. I don't know if you've been here all 

10 day, but I appreciate it. And I wanted to urge 

11 the EPA not to compromise or water down the rule, 

12 instead implement it as proposed, and the cost of 

13 waiting any longer to address the problem of 

14 carbon pollution and climate change is just too 

15 high. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you. Next, please, 

17 Matthew Elsner, and Kyle Wagner.

18 MR. WAGNER: My name is Kyle Wagner.

19 MS. VIDETICH: Push the button.

20 MR. WAGNER: Hello, my name is Kyle 

21 Wagner. Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

22 today. I am a 26-year-old native of Minnesota 

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1 out here organizing on behalf of Environmental 

2 Colorado and Environment America as well as a 

3 number of other organizations. I have spent the 

4 better part of the last decade working on behalf 

5 of community involved organizations and 

6 environmental policy.

7 That being said I've spoken to hundreds 

8 of thousands of individuals about these types of 

9 concerns, be them renewable energy, cleaner

10 environment, reduced emissions. It is a very 

11 universal statement that we need to be protecting 

12 our environment. There are very few people I 

13 have spoken to over the years that do not agree 

14 that these environmental policies are not only 

15 necessary but expected of our voting population.

16 In places like Minnesota and Colorado we 

17 have extremely increased our renewable energy 

18 standards as well as our regulations on energy, 

19 and we need to continue to do so in the face of 

20 climate change that has ravaged all of our states 

21 with flooding, drought, earthquakes, a wide range 

22 of other environmental catastrophes costing 

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1 trillions of dollars.

2 The statement has been made by the public 

3 countless times that we need to be pursuing 

4 stronger policies regarding, especially 

5 emissions, and carbon emissions at that. It's my 

6 job here today to bring the voices to all of 

7 these organizations and their constituency to the 

8 EPA and urge you not to compromise on these 

9 issues, not to compromise on these policies and 

10 to follow through, not just now on these 

11 environmental -- or on the emissions regulations 

12 but on all of these policies that directly impact 

13 climate change and our environment. Without them 

14 our future generations have no hope for the kind 

15 of agriculture, or energy, or for renewable 

16 resources that we have seen for countless 

17 generations.

18 The science speaks. These environments 

19 will die if we do not stand our ground now and 

20 continue to move forward in the future. I am a 

21 young person, but there are much younger out 

22 there that don't even have a voice to speak. And 

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1 I would like to see them facing a better tomorrow 

2 than we face today.

3 Not only here in the United States, but 

4 globally, there is a growing concern of the 

5 impact of policies here in the United States of 

6 America. Now, state by state we have taken the 

7 stand to say that reduced emissions, cleaner 

8 energy options and other things are necessary, 

9 but the time is now to make that a federally 

10 mandated direction for not just clean energy but 

11 all industries. We cannot continue to pollute 

12 our planet and hope to be here in another 10 

13 generations.

14 I thank you so much for the opportunity 

15 to speak, and I hope that this follows through in 

16 the months to come. Thank you.

17 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you. 

18 MR. ELSNER: Good evening. Thank you to 

19 the EPA for allowing us the opportunity to speak 

20 about our perspectives on the Clean Power Plan.

21 Thank you as well to everyone who has made the 

22 time to attend these hearings.

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1 Since climate change is the most pressing 

2 problem facing humanity today, it is heartening 

3 to see so many people engaged in finding ways to 

4 mitigate it.

5 MS. VIDETICH: Can you remind us who you 

6 are?

7 MR. ELSNER: I'm about to.

8 MS. VIDETICH: Okay. Thank you.

9 MR. ELSNER: My name is Matthew Elsner.

10 MS. VIDETICH: Okay.

11 MR. ELSNER: And I'm here today -- and 

12 that's E-L-S-N-E-R. And I'm here today as a 

13 concerned Coloradan and American as well as the 

14 Chair of the Sierra Club Denver Metro Network 

15 which works to engage and represent Sierra Club 

16 members in the Denver Metropolitan area.

17 While I by no means can speak for every 

18 Sierra Club member in our local area, I hope to 

19 present what I believe are some of the common 

20 concerns we share about carbon pollution and how 

21 to fight it. First, let me start by laying out 

22 what I believe we have in common with those who 

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1 oppose plans to eliminate carbon pollution.

2 We all appreciate being able to turn on a 

3 light and have our lives illuminated. We all 

4 depend on having a secure stable, constantly 

5 available source of energy to power our lives. 

6 We all want our economy to flourish, producing 

7 safe, good quality jobs. And we all want our 

8 families and neighbors to be health and free from 

9 illnesses that could be easily prevented.

10 We all want to leave the generations that 

11 come after us a natural world that hasn't been 

12 ravaged by both manmade and natural disasters. 

13 But what separates me, thousands of Sierra Club 

14 members, and millions of Americans who support 

15 the EPA's Clean Power Plan from its opponents is 

16 that we want to see something to promote these 

17 goals now. We know that something needs to be 

18 done now. And we know that this plan empowers 

19 the states to begin working to fix the problem 

20 now.

21 And we also know what this plan will do 

22 over time -- save thousands of lives, prevent 

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1 billions of dollars in damage due to climate 

2 change related disasters, and produce good new 

3 jobs to help power a greener economy.

4 What we believe we simply can't do is 

5 nothing. We have the responsibility as 

6 Coloradans, as Americans, and as people living at 

7 a pivotal moment in our history to do something. 

8 We simply must act and we must act now.

9 I support a secure energy future. I 

10 support transitioning to cleaner sources of 

11 energy. I support a healthy growing economy that 

12 produces good jobs. I support keeping those I 

13 love healthy and safe. And I support protecting 

14 our natural world for future generations.

15 That's why I support the EPA's Clean 

16 Power Plan. I hope you'll join me, thousands of 

17 Sierra Club members, and millions of other 

18 patriotic Americans in supporting it as well. 

19 Thank you.

20 MS. VIDETICH: We have one more speaker 

21 that I know of at this point. Bryce Carter, 

22 please.

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1 MR. CARTER: Good evening. My name is 

2 Bryce Carter, last name C-A-R-T-E-R. Like the 

3 gentleman before me, I am actually going to turn 

4 26 a week from Sunday. And I've committed the 

5 last eight years of my life working on climate 

6 change.

7 And when I first learned about the issue 

8 and started seeing directly the impacts of the 

9 fossil fuel energy, particularly coal in western 

10 Virginia and Appalachia, I was shocked. And, you 

11 know, I'm an organizer by trade. I work for the 

12 Sierra Club. And the reason why I work for the 

13 Sierra Club is because of stories I hear. And 

14 these are stories from individuals all across 

15 this country of places I've lived and places I 

16 have engaged and organized.

17 And when you go in these hollers of the 

18 communities in western Virginia and people hold 

19 up their lists of names of people in just one 

20 holler, one little community of people who have 

21 died of cancer, who are sick, who are dying of 

22 heart attacks in their 50's and you see these 

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1 health impacts directly, you realize that there 

2 is something wrong with the way our country 

3 operates and the way that we receive our power.

4 And so I was a student at Virginia Tech, 

5 and I committed myself and my life to making sure 

6 that people heard this story and got to 

7 experience that firsthand. We stand on the edge 

8 of what was a glistening mountainside and have a 

9 sheer wall of just moonscape where they blow up 

10 the entire mountain and just rip it out -- all 

11 the coal -- and destroy pristine ecosystems.

12 But it didn't stop there. I remember my 

13 friend who had to move to Virginia because her 

14 home was destroyed because of Katrina. I 

15 remember my friend who was scared because her 

16 house was burned by wildfires in California. And 

17 in that time when I had these conversations, I 

18 started organizing and including people and 

19 getting bus loads of people, hundreds of people 

20 to regional conferences, power shifts. Started 

21 organizing local conferences. And it became my 

22 passion. It became my career. And I say that --

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1 I don't even think of this as a career. 

2 Today I can tell you the Sierra Club, 

3 we've got 250 people that came in support for 

4 this hearing just today alone. We have over 550 

5 people who RSVP'd and myself and countless 

6 volunteers, countless people in this room, 

7 elsewhere have devoted themselves because they 

8 are hearing these stories, too.

9 And just in the last few years -- I've 

10 lived in Colorado for three years now, and I just 

11 recently bought a house. I've seen lightning 

12 strikes behind Boulder where suddenly a fire 

13 erupted and you see the smoke coming over the 

14 mountainside. And I was tweeting, and found out 

15 when one woman came up next to me I evacuated 

16 NOAA because they were following my tweets and 

17 once the flames are going over the mountainside, 

18 they decided to evacuate.

19 And I -- it was a Nationals verse 

20 Rockies' game and driving home and suddenly you 

21 see the apocalyptic plume coming from Colorado 

22 Springs when that fire erupted.

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1 I remember I was in Fargo, North Dakota, 

2 driving through there and seeing a berm of a mud 

3 dike where you are staring a second story window 

4 on one side, and you're staring at the top of 

5 water on the other. I just -- the amount of 

6 stories that continue to happen and are 

7 continuing to happen is terrifying.

8 Even just a couple weeks ago I was in --

9 going through Kansas where the wheat is this 

10 tall. How are we going to feed a country? How 

11 are we going to feed a world where suddenly our 

12 crops are no longer working?

13 A week before that I was in west Denver, 

14 stepped outside on my front porch, heard the 

15 tornado sirens. What do you know? A giant 

16 funnel cloud is circling. And thank God that 

17 thing did not land.

18 Our climate is changing and the Clean 

19 Power Plan going to 30 percent is great. We need 

20 to go to 100 percent. We need to make this as 

21 strong as possible because we cannot afford to 

22 wait.

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1 A few years I went through New Orleans. 

2 There are still boats in the streets. I will 

3 continue to devote my life whether it's a Sierra 

4 Club or whatever actions I need to do to fight 

5 for the clean -- for climate change and to make 

6 sure we solve this issue. The great news is that 

7 we do have solutions.

8 The Public Utilities Commission here in 

9 Colorado say that the average wind farm saves us 

10 $100 million over 25 years. Additionally, we see 

11 that rooftop solar with storage is now cost 

12 competitive to the utility grid power in Hawaii 

13 and soon to be in California, Arizona, and New 

14 York. Colorado is fairly soon behind that.

15 And what gets me personally so excited 

16 about where we are today, right now, is it's not 

17 just a story of tragedy which is what we've been 

18 enduring for so long, and I've seen so many tears 

19 and so many people's lives broken because of 

20 this; it's now a story of solutions and 

21 opportunity where we're creating thousands of 

22 jobs right here in Colorado. Just last week 800 

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1 new jobs being created with Vestas. 

2 And this Clean Power Plan is the true 

3 foundation to get us started moving in that 

4 direction that we absolutely must go if we're 

5 going to take these issues seriously.

6 (Buzzer sounded.)

7 MR. CARTER: So I want to thank you for 

8 all of your hard work, the long day, the long 

9 weeks leading up to this moment, but certainly 

10 thank you for everything that you do to get this 

11 Clean Power Plan to where it is today and to make 

12 sure we excel into tomorrow with it. Appreciate 

13 it.

14 MS. VIDETICH: Thank you. So at this 

15 point we have no more speakers that are on the 

16 list. My understanding is they've consolidated 

17 both rooms into this one, and at this point why 

18 don't we take a five minute break? This session 

19 is supposed to close at 8:00 o'clock, and we'll 

20 just make sure that we don't have anybody else 

21 that's signed up to speak.

22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm signed up.

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1 MS. VIDETICH: You are signed up, okay.

2 Is there anyone else in the audience that 

3 is signed up that we haven't called?

4 (Indicating.)

5 MS. VIDETICH: Okay. Then please come 

6 forward. If you would give us your name and 

7 spell your last name, please? Thank you.

8 MR. FOWLER: Yes, my name is Henry 

9 Fowler, F-O-W-L-E-R.

10 I just wanted to say a few things about 

11 the proposed rule. I -- this proposed rule puts 

12 forth a system to achieve significant carbon 

13 emission reductions while allowing states the 

14 flexibility to implement workable solutions for 

15 the power sector in their state. The way that 

16 power is produced, distributed, and used is 

17 already changing due to advancements in 

18 innovative power sector technologies and in the 

19 availability and cost of low carbon fuel, 

20 renewable energy, and energy efficient demand 

21 side technologies as well as economic conditions.

22 In addition, the average age of the coal 

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1 fired generating fleet is increasing. In 2025 

2 the average age of the coal fired generating 

3 fleet is projected to be 49 years old and 20 

4 percent of units would be more 60 years old if 

5 they remain in operation at that time.

6 Therefore, even in the absence of 

7 additional environmental regulations, states and 

8 utilities can be expected to be and already are 

9 making plans to address the changes necessitated 

10 by the aging of current assets and 

11 infrastructure.

12 One of the solutions to this problem that 

13 EPA has put forth is energy efficiency which 

14 implies maintaining or increasing output while 

15 decreasing energy consumption. Using energy more 

16 efficiently means reducing the rate at which 

17 energy is used while maintaining or improving our 

18 level of comfort and use for functionality. 

19 Examples include improving insulation and 

20 lower heating and cooling bills, and using LED 

21 light bulbs instead of century old technologies 

22 to light our homes. The fact of the matter is 

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1 that we in America don't even know how energy 

2 efficient we can be. Technology and ingenuity 

3 have already lowered electricity demand beyond 

4 all expectations. It may be that we are already 

5 at or near peak electrical demand in the United 

6 States.

7 The American Council for an Energy 

8 Efficient Economy estimates that if every state 

9 adopted just the following four policies, 

10 including implementation of modest energy 

11 efficiency savings targets, enactment of modern 

12 building energy codes, enactment of modest 

13 regulations to incentivize combined heat and 

14 power systems, and adoption of modest efficiency 

15 standards for certain appliances and products.

16 In 2030 carbon dioxide emissions from the 

17 power sector would be reduced by 26 percent 

18 relative to 2012 emissions; and power demand 

19 would be reduced by 25 percent.

20 In addition, we would avoid 600 million 

21 tons of carbon dioxide, save over 925 megawatt 

22 hours of electricity, and obviate the need for 

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1 hundreds of power plants in 2030.

2 ACEEE's analysis finds that these 

3 proposed efficiency policies would increase 

4 National Gross Domestic Product by 17 billion and 

5 produce a net gain of about 600,000 jobs by 2030.

6 One issue I see in the proposed rule that 

7 I hope EPA will address in its final rule is to 

8 clarify the following from the Preamble which 

9 states, the EPA is also proposing that measures 

10 that a state takes after the date of this 

11 proposal or programs already in place which 

12 result in CO2 emission reductions during the 2020 

13 to 2030 period would apply toward achievement of 

14 the state's 2030 CO2 emissions goal.

15 It's unclear from this statement whether 

16 states that wish to take early action would be 

17 able to be credited for these actions. This 

18 statement could provide a perverse incentive for 

19 a state to wait until it's closer the 2020 

20 timeframe to implement its best ideas.

21 I believe that there is nothing more 

22 important for our nation than to protect our 

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1 environment, and I would like to commend the 

2 Supreme Court for ruling that greenhouse gases 

3 can be regulated as a threat to public health. 

4 I would also like to commend the 

5 President for his leadership and also EPA 

6 Commissioner McCarthy and the entire EPA Air 

7 Program for their leadership and thoughtful 

8 consideration of this rule which holds so much

9 promise for our country.

10 The Clean Air Act, 111(d) proposed rule, 

11 compliments and reinforces the trajectory ethic, 

12 increased energy efficiency, and the reduction of 

13 carbon in our atmosphere, and places the United 

14 States in a position of leadership that other 

15 high carbon emitting countries cannot ignore 

16 while at the same time building positive momentum 

17 for economic activity and job growth. Thank you 

18 very much.

19 MS. VIDETICH: So, my understanding then 

20 is that we have concluded with our last speaker 

21 just now. The hearing is scheduled to be over at 

22 8:00, but we have no more speakers.

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1 I want to thank all of you that have been 

2 speakers today for giving your testimony. I 

3 thank the folks that came today to listen, for 

4 being here, and giving your full listening 

5 abilities.

6 The hearing is now closed for today. I 

7 would ask you all that are here to please exit 

8 the building in kind of an orderly and quick 

9 manner.

10 It's been a long day for a lot of us, and 

11 I wish you all safe travels home. And for those 

12 that might be here tomorrow, we'll see you then. 

13 Thank you.

14 [Whereupon, at 7:54 p.m., the public 

15 hearing was concluded.]

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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